THE EXAMINATION OF M. THOMAS CARTWRIGHT'S late apology, Wherein his vain and unjust challenge concerning certain supposed slanders pretended to have been published in print against him, is answered and refuted, By MATTHEW SUTCLIFFE. Calumniari est falsa crimina intendere. Marcianus L. 1. ff. ad. S.C. Turpilianum. ¶ Imprinted at London by the Deputies of Christopher Barker, printer to the Queen's most excellent Majesty. Anno 1596. TO M. THOMAS CARTwright Master of the Hospital at Warwick, give these in the isle of Gernesey, or else where he shallbe then resiant. ALthough, Sir, many of your good friends and followers have both long looked, and much desired to hear from you: yet, I do assure myself, they looked for nothing less than to receive from you such a slender and trifling pamphlet as this, which goeth under the name of your apology. they expected rather to see those famous observations of yours, which you have written against the Rhemish annotations upon the new Testament, which they esteem so highly, or else some such like notable learned, & laborious work against the common enemy. I, for my part, when I first heard, that your name was once again come in print, and that ye had now at length broken your long kept silence, looked (at the least) for some 1 Tanquam elephanti partum. great and learned volume in defence of that cause, for which you have so much practised, and so long and vehemently contended; and which you were wont so highly to magnify. I did well remember how you promised, that for 2 In the front of his first reply. Zion's sake you would not hold your peace, nor for Hierusalems' sake take any rest. as if this matter of your forged discipline were your only Zion, and that holy Jerusalem, for which you contended. you told us further, and that (I think) in very good sadness, that 3 1. reply. if every hair of your head were a life, you ought to afford them all for the defence of your cause. You affirmed also that your discipline 1 Preface 1. reply. is a great part of the Gospel: that it is a 2 1. and 2. reply. matter of faith, and an essential note of the Church: that the Church without it, is like a garden 3 Pref. 1. reply. without a hedge: nay finally 4 M. Cartwr. table. that it is Christ's kingdom upon the earth. I could not therefore think otherwise, but that now you had undertaken the defence and accomplishment of that most glorious and necessary work. Neither could I imagine, that 5 1. Thess. 2. contrary to the Apostles example, you would seek for glory at men's hands; or else like the princes of the jews, 6 john 12. esteem more the praise of men, than the glory of God: and to come nearer you, that you would abandon the defence of your Zion, yea and of your holy city Jerusalem, and would suffer your hedge to go down, and your Church to lie waste, and plainly would renounce a great part of the Gospel, and of your new faith, and all this to talk 7 The argument of M. Cartwrights' book. of the use of money, and purchases of land, and Hackets and Copingers matters, and your own fanciful opinions, and vain praises. Yea, and all that have heard of your fame, expected far other matters, than this short pamphlet like two ballads stitched together at your hands: and not only expected, but also desired and wished, that if needs you would take pen in hand, you would travail in your former cause, rather than in this private quarrel betwixt yourself and me. and that also was my earnest desire. not that I would have that fire stirred, which once you had kindled, and is now either quenched or well covered; but that I hoped, that by your defence all men should clearly see, first the nakedness and weakness of your cause, which with no eloquent gloss you could cover, nor with pretence defend; and next, that the same is not overborne by authority, as some bear men in hand, but rejected, repelled, and despised, as a new forged devise, repugnant to all antiquity, to all justice, to all reason, and truth. As for this your apology or brief answer, as you call it, it satisfieth no man's expectation, or desire, as I think. if you respect the principal cause; it is altogether impertinent, if you seek to justify and clear yourself, you have done just nothing. that is apparent by these particulars. You deny, that you did execute any part of your brother Stubbes his last will. an unkind part (you must needs confess) especially if he requested you, or meant to put you in trust. but what is that to the matter? that you have dealt in the execution of my Lord of Leicester's will concerning the stock of his Hospital, you cannot deny. Likewise most apparent it is, that you have dealt (how well, I know not) in divers other civil causes. which is sufficient to make that cause good, for which I alleged that argument. You say also, that you have not three or four manours; and percase you are sorry for it. but what appertaineth that to your eldership? I trust you mean not, if you had them to convey them over to some friends in trust for maintenance of a learned ministry, for want of which your consorts pretend to be so much offended. Neither is the want of land or fee any blemish to your credit. for many very honest, and learned men have not so much as one quarter of your revenues. you tell us that you leaned not 300. li. to Francis Michael, but only 200. pound. and yet neither is greatly material, whether it be. rather than you would lose either 200. or one hundred pounds, you would percase wish you had never spoken word for your consistory. you take it in evil part, that I should call the Hospital, whereof you are master, your Hospital; and yet is the speech common, and no harm meant, not is it any advantage to your cause, whether it be called my Lord of Leicester's Hospital, or your hospital. if so be you might have had your foolish course, many learned men would not have been so well maintained, as the poor of your Hospital. Such like be your complaints, where you take yourself charged to be a man that hath strange conceits concerning extemporal prayers, and working of miracles. neither of these matters appertain to your consistorial government, nor greatly touch you in reputation. Your acquaintance with Copingers causes, and allowance of Martin's libels, I confess, are foul matters, and touch you in your reputation; yet do they concern the consistorial cause, but little. Besides this, albeit your principal drift in this your apology was to clear yourself of all notes of disloyalty, and lewd opinions, and lewd practices; yet have you done none of these. nay in those matters that concern Stubbs his will, the purchase of lands, and lending of money, wherein you seem to have most advantage, you do but trifle. all this now I will briefly note, but the proofs you shall see largely deduced in the discourse ensuing. First where I do make divers questions, and some that touch you very nearly, you pass the most of them over with silence. but if you would have justified yourself, you should have answered them all, and that in direct and plain terms. I 1 Answer to the petit. p. 186. ask you whether Fenners book which he entitleth sacram Theologiam, and which you seem to allow, contain not strange divinity: and gladly would I know, if you mislike any thing in that book, what the points are you mislike. you answer nothing. I 2 Ibid. p. 189. demand of you whether Barrow's erroneous conclusions do not follow of your assertions. And what say you to it? forsooth nothing. I ask if the Prince refuse to reform the Church, how far inferior magistrates, and the people may proceed therein; and thereto your answer is 1 Ibid p. 194. & 195. silence. I demand of you, if you and your consorts do not think the practices of Geneva and Scotland for the setting up of their discipline lawful, and worthy to be followed: and to this you say 2 Ibidem p. 195. nothing. I demand further, whether you and your fellows have not assembled in synods and conventicles, and there decreed and enacted certain Ecclesiastical canons and rules, & subscribed and practsed them contrary to her majesties laws, and the statutes of the Realm: and you also answer, as to other matters. I desired to be resolved, whether you had disgraced her majesties Ecclesiastical laws, reformation, & government, & you respect my desires nothing. divers other matters likewise I demanded of you, unto which you answer nothing. nay in the matters concerning Hackets practise, and Martin's libels, and her majesties supremacy, you answer imperfectly and unsufficiently. you dare not set down my whole question, nor confess all was done concerning Copinger and Martin. nor will you answer directly to those particular points of her majesties supremacy, which the statutes and laws give her. and do you think, that this kind of answering is sufficient to clear you. Why, then let , Allen, and those Papists and traitors which confess so much in terms, as plainly and openly as you do as yet, be cleared. concerning Stubbs his will, and your dealing with Francis Michael, and others, you have also perverted my meaning, and altered my words, and manner of writing. who then seethe not how little means you had to clear yourself, being put to these hard shifts, and not daring to set down his words, whom you pretend to answer? but this we shall see more evidently when we come to the examination of the particulars of your brief. Further, your answer is altogether unsufficient. you do still cry out in your tragical manner, slander, slander: and yet you do not understand what is slander. you ought therefore to understand that slander is, 1 L. 1. ff. ad S. C. Turpil. when matters criminal are purposely, and falsely objected. but those things, of which you go about to purge yourself, are either not criminal, or else most true, & in part by yourself confessed. yourself confess, that some things objected to you are in their own nature indifferent. how then are they slanderous? that you were acquainted with Hackets and Copingers practices, and disliked not Martin's courses, shallbe proved. that you would not at the first answer to certain points concerning the Queen's supreme authority in causes ecclesiastical, you 2 In this book and in the question concerning that matter. confess. how then can you say, you are slandered? because forsooth, as you would insinuate, you did afterwards acknowledge it, & now offer to swear it. and yet you will be taken halting, when you come to the particular points of that authority. You deny that you allowed M. Fenners strange divinity concerning overruling and deposing of Princes by inferior magistrates; yet have not I said more than your own words will prove and justify. That which I say concerning working of Miracles and extemporal prayers, you wittingly, as it seemeth, mistake, and answer not: which argueth, that your conscience told you, that I said nothing therein but truth, & truth whereof you are ashamed. the execution of wills and purchase of lands is not criminal. beside that, what I said either concerning such matters, or else your manner of employment of your money, in effect and substance shallbe proved sufficiently. what reason then had you so unadvisedly to challenge me, and so deeply to charge me with this heinous matter of slandering? nay what meant you, or how durst you once talk of slanders having yourself slandered the ecclesiastical policy of the Church as unjust; the reformation thereof, as profane and impure; the authority of Bishops practised in this Church, as antichristian and contrary to God's word; the clergy of England as destitute of an ordinary and lawful calling, you having no other order then Deacon, that I know; the people of this land 1 Cartwr. table. as refusing Christ to reign over them; the preaching of the word, as not orderly; the administration of the Sacraments in this Church, as not pure nor sincere? neither have you so good reason to charge me, as I have to charge you with slandering me, having without cause imputed this unto me, and charged me with shifting, and I know not what unchristian dealing, and having put forth and excited your friend to rail on me, and charge me with divers odious matters in the preface to your book. matters, which I do the less regard, for that as he hath rashly charged me; so he hath wickedly blasphemed God, saying that God hath blasted my pen with a lying spirit, attributing therein the wicked act of lying to God himself, which is the Spirit of truth; and not only to me, which confess myself to be subject to many errors. of this, M. Cartwright, me thinks, you should have had more care, and used therein more diligence, and not suffered such blasphemies to pass in the forefront of your book. But, may you say, if you have not slandered me; yet you have wronged me. as if it were wrong to deal against the troubler of our peace, the chief author of your schism, the disturber & slanderer of this Church and state. and yet have I done nothing otherwise, then beseemed me. In my first books I dealt with you no further, than the cause constrained me, & your importunity, that first began to oppugn the Church, provoked me. In my answer to a certain petition in the behalf of yourself, and your side, I do confess, I dealt with you more particularly. but I was drawn to it by the author's odious questions and courses. When the petitioner said, Quaere of Matth. Sutcliffe, who is ever carping at M. Cartwrights' purchases, why he may not sell his father's lands, and buy others with the money: how could I satisfy the man, unless I touched you particularly. blame therefore him that began the brawl, if you find yourself therewith aggrieved; and not me, that did nothing but defend myself, and answer. What should I speak of the harshness, and roughness of your style? your book itself, albeit I say nothing, will herein say sufficient. against so megre and wretched a discourse, what need I say any thing? Yet partly lest you should enter into presumption, as if you had triumphed over me, and sufficiently justified yourself; and partly also to repress that haughtiness of spirit that possesseth you, and maketh you so impatient of due reproof; and partly to cure your followers of that mad humour, that maketh them suppose you to be a man without blame and error; I have undertaken to examine, & to look into this treatise of yours more particularly, although otherwise most unworthy to be refuted, or looked upon. and the rather for that your friend that hath made the preface before your book, doth make such great brags of this defence, and standeth so confidently upon your innocency, and would have all my writings esteemed and judged according to this rule. I have also added such questions as you omitted, praying your answer for my satisfaction. if you mislike this course, blame yourself, that drew me forth to justify my doings, and would not give me any rest by your importunity. but if you do still like it, and will further proceed to charge me with slandering you; then for your own credit, if not at my request, set down my words truly and wholly, and forbear to forge and devise matters calumniously. I have showed you both in this book and in my answer to M. Throkmorton a precedent. deal not worse with me, than I have done with you. but percase all this request is needless. for I trust his example, (who now is silent, as it seemeth, for aught he dare avow) will teach you not to stir coals well covered too rashly, nor to prate of needless matters foolishly, nor to run wilfully into danger, when no man driveth you. This my answer, albeit you look not for it, I dedicate to your own self, and not without just cause. challenges they say require answer, and 1 jueunda rerum verissitudo. one good turn requireth another. all men that have good minds yield 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. like for like, and pay home 3 Quod a se allatum est, id sibi relatum puter. Terent. in prol. phorm. as much as they have received. yea grateful minds 4 Vberiore mensura quam acceperis. Cicer. ex Hesiod. pay all with overflowing measure. I do not look for any thanks at your hands. I know it is an ungrateful world. yet if you will patronize this book and vouchsafe to stay the unbridled tongues of your disciples, that in their Bacchanal banquettes and disciplinarian feasts degorge their malice, and speak their pleasures of whom they list, I will accept it at your hands as a favour, and put it into the reckoning of your good doings. More I have to say unto you: but the rest you shall receive in my answer to your challenge, praying you to think nothing overmuch, nor lightly to condemn any thing, before you have talked with your friend Master Throkmorton, to whom, I doubt not, but you will discommend me, and therefore I desire not to be commended to him. and so committing, and commending you both to your sober thoughts, I bid you, a dieu. MATTHEW SUTCLIFFE. ¶ To the Reader. IT may be, gentle Reader, that either thou mayest think me contentious, that have entered into this quarrel with M. Cartwright, being a matter very frivolous, & no way to any good purpose: or else very idle and at great laisure, that have nothing else to busy myself withal, unless I do dispute and talk of Hackets & Penries' matters, and M. Cartwrights' lands and livings, and also of his domestical and inward affairs, and his private conceits and opinions. But yet, if thou wilt be pleased to consider either the great credit and fame, which M. Cartwright hath among his followers, that admire all his vanities; or else the importunity of him, that made the preface to his book, that would have all my writings measured by this false and deceivable line of M. Cartwrights' apologetical challenge, by the which he supposeth him to be cleared, and me to be quite disgraced, and therefore seeketh to discredit all that I have written in the common cause by the supposed untruethes and slanders uttered against him, of which he taketh me as convicted: I trust thou wilt pardon me, although I do examine even these fond toys, and fancies, not worth a straw; and grant, that it is to some good purpose, if I do clear myself of those fond and ridiculous imputations, which he would so willingly, and yet doth so unhandsomely fasten upon me. I was not ignorant, that wise men do well perceive this to be an uncertain, and deceitful rule, considering that such as write best are not void of errors, and very learned men do often slip: yet such is the justice and clearness of my cause in this controversy betwixt M. Cartwright and me, that I would not fear for once to allow this rule, and to make the most simple judge of my dealings herein. the which help seeing my cause doth afford me, I thought it not convenient to leave to such clamorous adversaries any pretence of advantage. I am therefore to pray thee not to account me for this cause either contentious and quarrelsome, or else unwilling to accept of conditions of peace; but rather to pity me, whom such contentious fellows with their vain jangling, and clamorous complaining will not suffer to rest. I did never challenge any as yet; but still wrote against those, that had first entered into voluntary quarrels against this Church and state. such was my discourse against Bellarmine and the Papists: such also were those two books which I wrote against the whole fraternity of the disciplinarians, and their extravagant fancies. neither had I to do either with the author of the petition, or with M. job Throk. before they did challenge me. seeing then this my answer to M. Cartwright is of the same nature, why should the same be more blamed, than my other doings? As for my leisure, I assure thee, it was never less. for yet there are not many days passed since the Fleet returned, wherein I was with others in her majesties service in the journey of Guadix: and to set my things in order, and to refresh myself of my former travails, some time is required. as for idleness, I do detest it, and M. Cartwright and his friends (I think) will thereof discharge me. yet if his peremptory dealing, and his prolocutors insolency would have suffered me to rest; I could now have been content to put over M. Cartwrights' brief until the next return. but being provoked by both, either to yield myself to have done notorious wrong, or else to make answer; although my other business was great, and my ease none at all, yet have I thought good to send them both away with a quick dispatch to rake up some new accusation or rather calumniation against me at some other time. This, certes, is the cause that specially moved me to look into this new matter, although both for the baseness of the subject, and unsufficiency of the handling of the cause most unworthy to be answered, read, or regarded. for (I pray) what doth it concern, but M. Cartwrights' private causes, with which, were I not drawn to it, I am most unwilling to meddle? yea, and in this cause of his own, how doth he be have himself? doth he not forbear to answer the greatest and most of those questions which are demanded of him? the examination of particulars, and the reading of this treatise will declare it. To come to the argument of this pamphlet, let us see how he handleth it. he saith and in great words giveth out, that I have slandered him, and that, forsooth, in two divers points, whereof the first (as he saith) concerneth common manners, the second toucheth his own estate. but when he descendeth from the top of his high style to talk of particulars, either he doth not rightly allege my words, and so faileth in his ground; or else frankly confesseth as much as I say; or else the matters wherewith he taketh himself to be charged, are not criminal. but suppose I had spoken somewhat, that might offend him; yet I trust his estate is not so high, but that it may be touched. I do not think he desireth any royallestate, as some have done; neither any privileged place, such as licentious persons seek. for mine own part, I must needs say, that I have not read a more fond and frivolous dispute. Like to M. Cartwrights' book is that preface which beareth a great room in this small treatise. like lips like lettuce: both vain, both devoid of wit and learning. yet of the two the preface is more fond, advancing M. Cartwright to the state of innocency; and more odious, being fraught with divers railing reproaches. the author seemeth to Master job Throkmorton an old friend of mine, who by commending of M. Cartwright sought to be revenged on me. And what he could not win by commending him, that he seeketh by railing and 1 Inter hypocritas faceros sanniones faceti trendentes contra me dentibus suis. Psalm. 35. gnashing his teeth upon me. such merry malicious fellows well doth the Prophet describe in his 35. Psalm. and such dealing is not strange in that gentleman, to whom I wish no other pain, then that for his scorning and railing, for which his own friends call him gibing job, he do not in the end weep full bitterly. I had thought the evil speed and success he had in his last letter would have admonished him to surcease writing either of letters, or prefaces. But he is of the number of those whom no harm will make wise, and percase is content especially for M. Cartwrights' sake, to suffer some few gentle blows in deduction of those pains, which otherwise he hath deserved. Against both the preface, and M. Cartwrights' brief challenge I have published this brief answer. by which I trust (by God's grace) to defend my rightful cause. thou thereby shalt reap this profit. thou shalt see, that these men, so they could retain their old credit, could be content to see the cause of their discipline deserted, yea, and M. Cartwright and M. Throkmorton will I trust make so good use of it, as to learn to master their affections, and to tame their haughty mind, and to rest when they are in the wrong, and to forbear to draw men into quarrels that wisheth them all humility, and meekness that should be in men of their sort. I would to God, that these that so eagerly pursue me for supposed matter against themselves, would in the end come home, and make an amends for that public slander and disgrace they have offered to the state. But what do I wish that, which will not be had? such men as are settled in their wicked purposes and courses, will not lightly give over, that which once though unadvisedly they have begun. I would therefore if their heads will not be advised, yet wish their followers to take heed, how they be abused by them, and to look for better ground, than such froward leaders strange conceits. This answer I pray thee read with patience, and look not for any great learning in it. for it was devised on the sudden, and beside that, it is framed upon a base subject, and a light matter of fact, and very needless, if M. Carwright could so have been contented. Is it possible to draw water out of flint, or likely that we shall gather grapes on thistles? M. Cartwright doth not boast of miracles as he saith, and I never professed that I could work them. what fruit then is to be expected out of this rocky soil? Well, such as it is, I pray thee accept this discourse. and I would it were better for thy sake. The best is, it shall not be long, nor I hope tedious: and therefore leaving all other preambles, I come now to the examination of the book itself. But first a few words concerning the two divers titles, that this petit pamphlet hath in two sever all places put before it. ¶ 1 The answer to the two Titles. The first title is this. A brief Apology of Thomas Cartwright, against 2 Whatsoever therefore he is charged with and is not here answered, is no slander. all such flanderous accusations, as it pleaseth M. Sutcliffe in his several pamphlets, most 3 I do him no wrong. injuriously to load him with. Under that title is written this posic. A 4 Apply this to job Throk. and you shall see it fitteth him well, having been silenced with shame enough. righteous man abhorreth lies: but the ungodly shameth himself, and is put to silence. Prou. 13.5. ¶ The second title is set down in these words. A 5 Note that he saith brief, and forgot answer, that is in the written copy: which showeth, that in deed this which M. Cartwr● saith, is no answer. brief of Thomas Cartwright to the printed slanders of M. doctor Sutcliffe deane of Exeter, so far as they concern the same Thomas Cartwright. ¶ The Answer. ALthough titles of books be according to the author's fancies for the most part; and therefore not much to be regarded: yet forasmuch as there is some matter in them worthy to be marked, I thought good to begin with them. The first thing that I observe is the contrariety and repugnance that is in the titles: which argueth, that the authors could not well tell, what to make of this treatise. The second is the notorious falsehood contained in the titles, which declareth their bad dealing. The last is a plain confession of the adversary against himself. for if all slanderous accusations be answered, than whatsoever M. Cartwright is charged with, and not answered in this treatise, the same is confessed to be no slander. The repugnance appeareth diversly: the first title hath apology, the second hath brief. yet neither is every apology a brief, nor every brief an apology. true it is that the written copy hath, a brief answer. but all cometh to one reckoning. for every brief answer is not an apology, nor contrariwise. Nay the same maketh much against M. Cartwright. for his friend perceiving that his 1 M. Cartwrights' brief confessed by I. Throkmorton to be no answer. brief contained no sufficient answer, put out answer, and only left us a brief: as it were a brief or writ to summon me to look to their dealing, and crafty conveyances; or else a brief or sum of their manifold follies. the first title doth pretend that M. Cartwr. is injuriously loaden with slanderous accusations; the second maketh light of the matter, and complaineth not at all. and sure strange it were, if a man should be loaden with so few lines, and such light paper. the first braggeth that all accusations are answered, but M. Cartwright seemeth more wise; and therefore professeth no such general answer to be made. The first calleth my books pamphlets (no doubt the writer was angry with them:) the second hath more gentle and modest terms. is it therefore likely, that M. Cartwright will agree with me, that even at the first dash is so far fallen out with his friend? The falsehood of these titles shall be discovered throughout this whole answer: and may also in part appear by this, for that they both pretend, that I have slandered M. Cartwright. and yet neither he nor his friend that so saucily prateth in the preface shall ever be able to justify their pretence. for 1 L. 1. ff. ad S. C. Turpil. slander is a false imputation of matters criminal. but the matters which M. Cartwright taketh on him to answer are either most true, or not criminous. Besides that, it is one thing to charge a man with matters criminal judicially, and in his own defence; another to charge him extradicially; or judicially, and by way of accusation. but that which I allege is by way of exception and in my defence, and not with a mind to accuse. Let him therefore that chargeth me with accusation justify his charge, and note the time and place when I committed this fault, and the words of my accusation. In deed I moved certain questions. but there is great difference betwixt questioning and accusing. the end of questioning is resolution: the end of accusing punishment. let him therefore show whom I have accused, or prosecuted in judgement to have him punished. Last of all the author of the first title complaineth of injurious dealing. but M Cartwright I thank him doth friendly discharge me; and I doubt not, but I shallbe able most clearly to discharge myself. The confession of the adversary against himself is most apparently set down in the first title. for if all accusations that savour of slander, are answered as the title pretendeth, then is M. Cartwright not slandered when (if questions be charges, as he saith) he is charged with divers foul and dangerous matters; a brief of which I will here set down, to let him either understand his fault, or else, if he will not acknowledge it, to provoke him to frame us a more sufficient answer. ¶ A note of certain special matters which have been demanded of M. Cartwright and his consorts, and whereto in this his brief he answered nothing. FIrst I 2 Answer to the pet. p. 185, q. 2. demanded of all the disciplinarians, of which I take M. Cartwright to be the leader, whether those that would overthrow not only the privileges and liberties of the Church of England, but also the whole Ecclesiastical estate, their jurisdiction also, and livings; seek not the overthrow of Magna charta, and infinite statutes, and of a great part of the common laws of the Realm, and seek thereby the dishonour of her Majesty and the state, by requiring at her hands things that tend to the violating of the oath of Princes taken at their Coronation, and the overthrow of the rewards of learning. and whether such as are chief doers in these causes, are longer to be suffered to proceed in their presumption. This I demanded, to this M. Cartwright saith nothing. Likewise, Ibidem q. 4. I asked whether the book of Fenner that is entitled, sacra theologia, and came forth with the allowance of M. Cartwright contain not strange divinity. This question containeth many members, even so many as there are strange positions concerning the holy Trinity, the Law, the Gospel, the Sacraments, and such holy mysteries of divinity. yet M. Cartwright satisfieth me in nothing. Thirdly, Ibidem q. 5. I desired to be resolved, whether it be not reason to make M. Cartwright recant those dangerous opinions, which under his credit come forth commended in that book. And whether he and his fellows have not made a new book of prayer and administration of Sacraments, and practised the same or some part thereof without authority: and whether they deserve not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions of faith, and new doctrine. and what answereth he? forsooth nothing. It might also further be demanded more particularly of M. Cartwright, whether in that communion book which the disciplinarian faction offered to the Parliament, & desired to have it authorized & received throughout the Realm, and which for the most part was either framed by his advise, or allowed by his consent, there are not two articles taken out of the Creed, namely that of Christ's burial, and his descending into hell, and whether there is not a new article added binding all men to believe their new discipline. making that a matter of faith. and whether this be not a plain violence offered to men's consciences, and an alteration of our ancient faith. Likewise whether there is not one petition wanting in the Lord's prayer, and their new paraphrase upon it. Theolog. sacr. lib. 1. Likewise whether M. Fenner in his book of divinity, which M. Cartwright as it were authorizeth with his letters of commendation, do not confound essence and person in the divine nature, and divide the persons of the Trinity into two members, and talk foolishly of the eternal generation of the Son of God and of the proceeding of the holy Ghost, and teach that hatred as it is one of the attributes of God, is the essence of God; And lastly whether M. Cartwr. will allow this for sound divinity. In his next writ of slanders, may it please him to shape us a direct answer to these matters. Ibidem q. 21. Fourthly it was demanded by what authority the ministers of foreign Churches take on them to prescribe forms of discipline and new laws to our Church. Likewise it might be asked by what rule M. Cartwright taketh on him the ministry in our Church having no ordination (unless it be of deacon) according to the laws of this Church. Fiftly I desired to be resolved, Ibidem q. 22. whether all the errors of Barrowisme do not follow, and may be concluded of M. Cartwrights' and his consorts assertions. and whether it be a matter fit that these men should deal with that sort of sectaries, and not rather be constrained publicly to recant their own foul errors. All these questions M. Cartwright answereth with silence. Sixtly, Ibidem q. 24. I moved a question whether M. Cartwright and his consorts do not either flatly deny or call in question the principal points of her majesties supremacy. and whether they take not from her power to ordain rites and orders for the Church; likewise authority to nominate Bishops, to appoint Ecclesiastical commissioners, and to delegate learned men to hear the last appeal from Ecclesiastical courts, to call synods, and other authority given to the prince by the laws of England: and endeavour to bring in foreign laws, and jurisdiction repugnant to the statute of the prince's supremacy, and prerogative, and the laws and liberties both of the Church of England, and of her majesties subjects. if M. Cartwright meant to have satisfied the doubt concerning his opinion, and conceit of her majesties supremacy, as he goeth about it; he ought to have answered this question directly and particularly. not doing it, who seethe not that he slideth away in clouds of generality, and private conceits of his own fancy concerning this matter? Seventhly it was demanded, Answer to the petit. q. 26. & 29. whether by M. Cartwrights' rules in those places where they are received the Church goods are not spoiled, and the livings of the ministry divided, and rewards of learning taken away, and also whether, if the same should here be received, the like wrack would not be wrought, and her Majesty deprived of tenths and subsidies, and a great part of her revenues, and of many faithful and loyal servitors, which by those laws being made unable to live, would also be made unable to do her service. He hath nothing to answer, that will make for him. Eightly it was asked, Ibidem qu. 30. whether M. Cartwright and his followers have not in all places where they have been received, made sects and divisions, and hardened men's hearts, and filled their minds with pride and humorous vanities. to which he saith nothing. Percase he knoweth it is no slander. Ninthly, Ibidem qu. 31. I demanded whether it be not dangerous for this state, that M. Cartwright and his partakers have so much urged this Church to imitate the examples of Geneva and Scotland, considering the dangerous courses which they took, and the hard effects, that followed of them. It cannot be denied: and therefore M. Cartwright holdeth his peace. 10. Ibidem qu. 33. The question was asked whether that the subversion of the state of the Church, which followeth necessarily of M. Cartwrights' disciplinarian devices, is not a great scandal, and hindrance to the reformation of true Religion in other places. It is most apparent, and therefore M. Cartwright forbeareth to answer. 11. Ibidem q. 34. It is demanded whether M. Cartwright do not as well subject Princes to excommunication, as or Allen or other Papists: and whether his doctrine is not as pernicious to prince's authority, as theirs. It must needs be granted: and therefore he passeth by, and saith just nothing. 12. Answer to the petit. qu. 49. A doubt is made whether M. Cartwright doth believe, that subjects may rebel against such Kings, as they account Papists or tyrants, as some of that side have taught: and he passeth by in a grave silence. 13. Ibidem qu. 51. It is asked, whether M. Cartwright and his fellows have not assembled in synods, or rather conventicles, and there enacted & decreed certain rules & orders contrary to her majesties laws, and also subscribed them & procured others to subscribe them, and by all possible means gone about without authority to put the same in practice, and to discredit and disgrace the laws of her Majesty, and ancient government of Christ his Church. This is most true, and therefore passed over in silence. 14. Idemaunded also whether they have not in their said orders, Ibidem qu. 52. which they call holy discipline, taken all authority in Church causes from the Christian magistrate, and given it to their consistories and synods, in so much that the magistrate is not once mentioned in that platform; and further I would know, how the sufferance of these proceed may stand with the majesty of a Prince, and with government. Likewise it may be demanded of M. Cartwright how he that hath bound himself to this form of discipline by his word & subscription, may be thought to allow of her majesties supreme government which the laws of this land do give unto her. In this case he is as silent, as Harpocrates. 15. Ibidem q. 53. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright have not taught, that the authority which they challenge to their elderships and synods by their holy discipline, as they call it, is neither increased nor diminished, whether the prince be Christian or heathen; and likewise, if he do not think, or have not taught, that the authority of a Christian and heathen prince is all one, and that a Christian king hath no more to do with the Church government, than any pagan prince, or Emperor hath: but he will tell us nothing. 16. Ibidem q. 54. I asked M. Cartwright whether he & his adherents have not put the greatest part of their discipline in practice, without her majesties consent, authority, or allowance: and likewise without her authority or knowledge have not both made secret meetings, and established divers new orders, and broached new opinions, and all contrary to the doctrine, faith, and government of this Church of England: this string M. Cartwright dare not touch. 17. Ibidem. q. 55. I asked him whether he was not presumptuous (if no more) in doing these things, and whether he ought not to be brought publicly to submit himself for his faults. Likewise it may be here asked of him, whether having both in Fenners book, and his replies and writings taught, written, and allowed divers points of false-doctrine; he is not to be brought to a public recantation, for satisfaction of those weak ones, that he hath offended: will it please him yet to answer this question directly? 18. Answer to the petit. qu. 57 I demanded whether M. Cartwright swore truly in the star-chamber, when he affirmed on his oath, that he never affirmed or allowed that in every monarchy there ought to be certain magistrates like to the Spartaine Ephori, with authority to control and depose the king, and to proceed further against him, seeing he called M. Fenners book wherein these points are expressly set down, the principles and grounds of heavenly Canaan, and doth not only without all exception allow it, but also highly commend it: this is also a point which he dare not answer directly, and plainly. 19 Ibidem qu. 58. I would also understand whether M. Cartwright and his fellows have not confessed on their oaths taken in the star-chamber, that notwithstanding all that care that hath been taken for the perfecting of their platforms of discipline, they are not yet resolved upon divers points. and whether they did wisely to subscribe to such orders; or dutifully, to animate certain gentlemen of mean understanding in divinity, to present such a confused & imperfect platform of government to the Parliament, that it might be confirmed, and received throughout the whole Realm; and last of all whether it were wisdom to dissolve a state already settled, & to embrace a government whereupon the authors themselves are not yet resolved, nor (I think) ever will be, and wherein others see notorious absurdities, imperfections and injustice. doth not he that holdeth his peace, consent? 20. Ibidem qu. 59 I desired to hear whether M. Cartwright and his companions do not say upon their oaths, that they meant to have been suitors to her Majesty and the Parliament for the receiving of their draft of discipline before mentioned, and subscribed unto by them, as a perfect plat of Church government commanded by God's word, and therefore do utterly disclaim by a most necessary implication her Majesty to have any pre-eminence and authority in Ecclesiastical causes by the word of God, seeing they do not give any authority in their perfect platform to the civil magistrate, but yield all that power to their synods, classes, and consistories. It may also be further demanded of him how this form may be deemed perfect, seeing they confess they were not yet resolved upon divers points. M. Cartwright answereth nothing. 21. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did not understand, Answer to the petit. qu. 60. that Copinger pretended an extraordinary calling, which moved him to attempt matters, that might prove very dangerous. It might also have been demanded of him, whether albeit he would not be acquainted with the particulars of his lewd purposes, yet he knew not that something was in hand, for his and others deliverance out of prison, and for the advancement of the consistorial government. M. Cartwright standeth mute. 22. Ibidem qu. 61. I doubted whether M. Cartwright maintaining the excommunication of princes by the eldership, and other points of Fenners book doth not maintain doctrine as dangerous, as , Rosse, and Allen, that maintain the excommunication of princes by the Pope and the Pope's proceed. and yet M. Cartwright resolveth me not. 23. Ibidem q. 75. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did reveal to any magistrate the letters of Copinger, or his strange designments: but he deigneth not to satisfy any such demand. 24. Ibidem qu. 92. I asked whether M. Cartwrights' answer to the Rhemish annotations upon the new Testament contain not divers points of doctrine contrary to all the fathers, to the faith of this Church, and all sound divinity; and why if it be otherwise he doth not subject it to the censures of the learned. and what saith he? nothing. 25. Ibidem qu. 93. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright or some friend of his did not threaten excommunication against a certain merchant at Middlebourg, if he would not desist pursuing a servant of his that had wasted his goods, and whether such courses be allowable. All, or most of these questions M. Cartwright passeth over in silence, and doth not so much as touch them in his apology, how nigh soever they touch him. Beside these questions, divers other matters were asked of of M. Cartwright in the star-chamber, whereto he hath either answered nothing at all, or nothing to purpose. Being demanded, Interrog. 2. how far forth he hath affirmed or allowed the Queen's authority Ecclesiastical to be restrained by the injunctions, under colour whereof divers allow and swear to the supremacy, that otherwise condemn it, M. Cartwright saith, he is not bound to answer, the secret of his opinion (belike) he feareth to disclose. Being demanded, Interrog. 3. whether he hath maintained or allowed, that the king being no pastor, doctor nor elder, is to be accounted among the Church governors, and whether in a well ordered Church the prince may ordain orders and ceremonies in the Church; M. Cartwright saith, he is not bound to answer, and being reexamined, as the judges determined he ought, he persisted in his former obstinacy. a plain argument of his perverse opinion concerning her majesties government in causes Ecclesiastical. Being demanded, Interrog. 4. whether he did acknowledge the Ecclesiastical government established by her Majesty to be lawful and allowable by God's word, M. Cartwright answered, that he took not himself bound to answer: and so persisted being reexamined. ergo he thought it not lawful. Being demanded, Interrog. 5. whether he would acknowledge the Sacraments to be duly and sincerely ministered, as they be ordained to be ministered by the book of common prayer, M. Cartwright answered, that he was not bound to answer, and reexamined still refused to yield any further answer. doth he then think them to be sincerely and duly administered in our Church? Being demanded whether he thought those that favoured not the discipline to be accounted Christian brethren in the same sense, Interrog. 6. and as properly as men of his opinion, M. Cartwright refused to answer as to a matter impertinent. behold, I beseech you how he accounteth of us, that mislike his new disciplinarian devices. Being examined whether he thought the Church of England refusing the presbyterial government to be the true Church in as proper sense, Interrog. 7. as that Church that embraceth the same, M. Cartwright according to his old tune refused to answer, and said he was not bound. Being demanded, Interrog. 22. how far he hath affirmed that without breach of the peace of the church of England as it is now governed, men might treat of alteration of laws, & proceed to practise the new discipline, he maketh a sleight & unsufficient answer. Being demanded at how many classical or synodical assemblies he had been present, Interrog. 23. & 24. and what was treated in them, he either staggreth, or answereth not. Being demanded, Interrog. 24. whether in their assemblies they had not treated and concluded divers matters direct contrary to the Ecclesiastical laws, as for example, that unpreaching ministers are no ministers, that no obedience is to be given to Archbishops or Bishops, that their ordination was to be received only as a civil ordinance; M. Cartwright answereth, that they were treated of, but not concluded, and prayeth not to be pressed to answer further, viz. how far these matters were liked of. which argueth his dislike of Ecclesiastical laws, and presumption in determining against them. Being demanded, whether he had not treated, Answer to the interrogat. in star-chamber Interrog. 27. or propounded certain means of maintenance for Archbishops, and Bishops, deans and other officers and ministers Ecclesiastical, having lost their Ecclesiastical preferments, of which he then doubted not (so friendly was he to us) he saith, that he is not bound to answer. a plain and evident proof, that in his conceit he had cast us all out of our livings. Being demanded, Ibidem interrog, 29. whether in a certain assembly in the county of Cambridge (he being present) it was not concluded, that Homilies and the Apocryphal scriptures were not to be read in the Church, that the calling of Bishops was unlawful, and that notwithstanding any sentence of deprivation given by them the ministers of the disciplinarian faction were to continue their ministry, and the discipline to be taught, and to be practised by those that were well instructed, he denieth that he is bound to answer. whereby it appeareth how presumptuous he was in going about to dissolve her majesties Ecclesiastical laws and government. TO conclude this point, compare I beseech you, this answer and apology of M. Cartwrights' with my questions and the interrogatories, whereupon he was examined in the star-chamber throughout: and you shall find that he passed by most of my questions in silence, not once daring to touch them, or to look upon them; and that he was no way able to clear himself of those matters that were objected against him in the star-chamber: and I think, he will not, sure I am, he cannot deny so much to be true. if he do; let him take what time he will, and directly and particularly answer these questions and interrogatories in his next apology. but I know he neither meaneth so to do, nor can well do it. I do therefore conclude first, that (if as he saith and disputeth in his whole answer) all questions be charges, or (as the title hath) accusations; then is he accused and charged with divers enormous matters. Secondly, if he hath answered all slanderous accusations in this his apology, then that all these things which are not answered are truly objected, and are no slanders. Which being granted, it will follow that his friend had small skill that painted him out in the proper lineaments, as he saith, of innocency. and if he say, that this is nothing but a cavil; then let him the next time answer all these matters directly and sufficiently; and I myself will give him, not only the rob of innocency, which his friend bestoweth on him, but also will crown him with a garland of glory, and place him in the triumphant chariot of victory, to his perpetual honour among all his followers, that like of his disciplinarian forgeries. Those words also out of the proverbs, which are set under the first title, are a most evident testimony against the author of the Preface, who likewise seemeth to have fitted to himself this sentence. for, if righteous men abhor lies, why hath he told his Lady so many vain tales and fables? forsooth, because he is an ungodly fellow. and therefore that is come to pass that followeth in the sentence: the ungodly shameth himself, and is put to silence. for M. job Throkmorton in his rude and evil shapen letter hath shamed himself, and as a man that is at the end of his role, having reeived his answer is put to silence. Let M. Cartwright take heed that his hap be not like his fellows, and that for expected glory he receive not shame, and stop when he hath run his course in a sudden silence. This sentence therefore, albeit the same neither agree with the Hebrew text, nor with the old Latin translation, nor with the Genevian translation in English, yet shall pass for once, without correction. In the second title M. Cartwright calleth me doctor, I trust he doth it not in scorn. for the time was when himself desired both the degree and title of doctor, and yet could not have it. percase he was put back for his innocency. sure somewhat it was, that made the University deny that to him, that it useth to deny, but to very few and for just causes. Beside that, he would have doctors to be chief men in the new commonwealth of his consistory, and great pillars of the disciplinarian state. He doth also call me deane of Exeter, giving me an office which himself hath condemned as antichristian. but his sentence is declared erroneous, and foolish. For what reason hath a master of an Hospital to condemn a deane? the time was, I thank him, when he seemed very careful how deans and others, which he had determined by his magistral authority should lose their livings, should be maintained. but now he is acquitted of that care, and turned along to look to his domestical affairs. May it therefore please him to let deans alone, and look to his own reckonings. if not, he shall well understand, that deans are in honesty and otherwise, above such as he is, though he were master of more than one Hospital, and that himself is no such man, but that we may talk of him without incurring scandalum magnatum. This answer he calleth a brief. and what brief? forsooth a brief to printed slanders. as if there were any relation betwixt briefs and slanders, or else, as if slanders were properly said to be printed. Sure, if M. Cartwright were so wise as he is taken to be, he would never have printed these slanders himself, nor published this simple & weak discourse, nor without cause or good purpose brought his name into question. But seeing he would needs have it so, who can be against it? should the consistorial elders proclaim a fast and desire God to turn his mind? Nay seeing he will make himself the subject of this dispute, and call me forth to contend with him, let us begin and see what either his friend in his preface, or himself in his brief returnable 10. days before this term, can say for their defence. and lest either might complain of wrong, they shall both speak in their own natural language. List therefore I pray you. for here comes in the prologue, a goodly grave fellow, ye need not doubt. ¶ The preface set before M. Cartwrights' book, and the answer to it. IF thou be desirous, good Reader, to 1 Will you see the counterfeit of a dizzard? see the right portraiture of 2 He meaneth folly. for innocency dwelleth not here about. innocency truly set forth unto thee in her 3 A very proper piece of work. proper lineaments; then read this discourse, which is not 4 Not long, nor wise, nor learned. long. ¶ The Answer. STrange it were, I confess, and worth the seeing, if a man might see the right portrait of innocency, and that truly set forth in her proper colours and lineaments, as this preface promiseth. but alas where is she? and how shall we come to have a sight of her? how shall we know her and discern these proper lineaments that he speaketh of? The prefator like a monte bank he pointeth to this discourse which he imagineth to be a rare piece of workmanship painted out by M. Cartwright, as it were another Appelles; and promiseth that within we shall see this strange creature he speaketh of. but he doth but abuse his reader, to feed him thus with strange fancies. We have sought every corner of this treatise, and find nothing but a rude piece of work not worth the reading: hard words, disjointed sentences, weak proofs, bad answers, and nothing worthy commendation. as for innocency, it was not there to be found. nay while we sought for innocency we found nothing but a certain odd fellow in a corner, whose head was all distempered with rheums of discipline, and a number of indigested conceits, and by him the author of this preface pointing at him, and calling all men in, to behold innocency. But those that saw them both, and their demeanours as well as I, said that there was nothing else to be seen but a trifling pamphlet, and that all the Prefators devise was nothing but a pack of foolery. But to leave this fellows painting and portraying, that hath no more skill to paint then a cobbler to draw like Appelles; and whose bad grace is such, that there appeareth no other work of his beside distempered humours, reproachful words, and vain and idle talk; What more ridiculous prosopaea could be devised then this, to make M. Cartwright that always hated plays and spoke against them, to play a part? and what part? forsooth a woman's part, which of all parts he most detested. The especial grace of a prosopopaea is to observe decorum, the which by this manis no way regarded. for what is more childish then to make an old man play a child's part? and M. Cartwright to play a woman's part? nay what more absurd then to make him as clear as innocency? for if this were true, then was he wrongfully convented by the Lords in the star-chamber. And besides that M. Cartwright was very simple not to be able to show us this clear innocency, which is here so invisibly portrayed. How innocent he is shall appear by his defence and this answer. but this to the prologcutors vain entrance telling us of the portrait of innocency. ¶ The preface. Being, thou seest, thus provoked as 1 Who was it, that did thus challenge innocency? and where? she is, or rather, to speak the truth, thus violently drawn into the encounter by the wretched assaults of an 2 Men have great reason to beware of the leaven of the Puritans, and Pharisees. unleavened mouth: yet mark I pray thee, how she carries herself, and how she comes 3 All armed like Pallas. whereby it appeareth that job Threkmorton is not this innocency. for he never yet bore arms to do her Majesty service. armed into the field. ¶ The answer. All this bill is erroneous. Being, saith he, thou seest, thus provoked. yet he hath better eyes then common, that can see any step or likelihood in M. Cartwrights' discourse, of any such matter. I for my part certes never provoked, or encountered or used violence to innocency. neither dealing with M. Cartwright, the person on whom this vizard of innocency is unhandsomly put, were either my reasons so simple, that he hath yet come forth to answer them, nor his cause so good, that he might well put the same upon any further trial. His dealing therefore in this case that abandoned the field was rather wretched than mine, as those that fly before the enemy and dare not make head are most miserable and cowardly soldiers. yea in these matters that he goeth about to answer, he hath so badly acquitted himself, that beside this fellow that hath no judgement, none will clear him. But could he clear himself in them, yet there are divers other matters to be objected to him of which he shall never be able to clear himself. his errors and ignorance in divinity proved by his commendations of Fenners book: his implied denial of her majesties prerogative and power in making and abrogating Ecclesiastical laws, and appointing of commissioners and delegates, his malicious purpose to overthrow the present Ecclesiastical government, his saucy and uncivil railing and dealing against the prelacy of England, his notorious untruths and forgeries in maintenance of his new devices: his schismatical meetings and conventicles, his usurpation of the ministry without just calling, his turbulent dealing for his eldership, and many other matters to be objected against him shall he never be able to answer. What a ridiculous matter than was it, that M. Cartwright should still be made to play the part of lady innocency, a lady that he and job Throkmorton should seem to be but little acquainted withal? nay how absurd was it, that so grave and ancient a man as M. Cartwright, at the bending of whose brows all the aldermen of the Church stood amazed, should here be stripped of his priestly ornaments, and put into a woman's attire to play innocency, of whom now we must speak only in the feminine gender, and make a confusion betwixt him and Mistress Cartwright, giving him the title of she, and disabling him for ever being precedent of the consistory? this is therefore absurd and ridiculous talking. That which he saith of unleavened mouths is mere railing. a matter not strange with M. Throkmorton, whose mouth is leavened with Pharisaism, and black with Puritanisme, and distasted with late learning they say of certain Hebraisms. He telleth us further, and taking a stand upon an oaken tree in an ivy bush willeth us to mark. for he hath sprung innocency like a silly partritch out of the bushes of M. Cartwrights' book, and she forsooth flieth out all armed. which is not only absurd, but very miraculous. For what more absurd, then that she should come forth out of a discourse, and like Pallas come all armed: or more miraculous, then that all this should be wrought by certain words without all conjuration or legerdemain of the prolocutor? ¶ The preface. 1 These are no pieces of M. Cartwrights' arms. Patience, mildness, truth, and a good conscience, this is her 2 Do the same pieces serve for armour and weapons? armour, these be her weapons, and with these only she 3 Puritan innocency fights: godly innocency is peaceable. fights repelling and striking back all the bitter 4 Yet they say M. Cartwright wardeth but badly. darts, that are thrown against her only with, the Lord rebuke thee; and 5 Witness his first and second replies. none otherwise. ¶ The Answer. It is no marvel although we have wars, when innocency herself is made such a great fighter, and quarreler. but this is the Prefators art. and yet they say, he is no such great warrior, that all the while that divers valiant men were on the Seas, and at Cadix in her majesties service, was either writing such railing and lewd prefaces in corners, as this: or else calculating the success of his devices by the aspect of the stars, or else feeding his carcase with dainty fare, and his envious mind with malicious reports. A very hasty fellow to fight in words: so hasty that he had no leisure to fit his sentences. for, I pray you, how are these words, patience, mildness, truth and a good conscience, governed? but his disjointing of sentences is not the worst of his cause. a fouler matter it is, that arming M. Cartwright with innocency, and other virtues and good parts, he forgot both wit, and charity. right according to his own brainless doings, that in them have no wit: and according to the Puritan dealings that are commonly without charity. Besides this, all this description and armour consisting in many virtues, no way belongeth to M. Cartwright. That he hath no good voice nor face to play innocency, it appeareth by his answers in the star-chamber, by his writings, and all his dealings. As for patience, how can he claim it, that is so unpatient of due reproof, and cometh behind M.I. Throk. that now for aught I know holdeth his peace, unless he percase speak in this preface? And what hath he to do with mildness in whose face there is a storm of anger, and in whose writings there is such rough, and rude dealing against laws, and against his superiors? Now where there is forging, devising, and Machiavelian plotting, how can there be either truth, or a good conscience? All which courses if they shall be proved to have been used in his doings and writings, than it is clear, that M. Cartwright is no such fighter, nor so well armed as is reported. which also appeareth in this, that throwing down his arms wherewith he was wont to fight, and abandoning that cause for which he in time passed made such brags, he doth now only skirmish with certain vain fancies, as Ulysses did with shadows in his feigned descent to hell. Now he hath lurked a great while, marinae filius Thetidis sub lachrymosa tempora Troiae. if Vulcan would make him a harness for his head, it would do him percase more good, than all his furniture. Further he telleth us, that the same things do serve M. Cartwright who is figured under innocency both for armour and weapons. he meaneth perhaps to thrust all men through with his head piece. which is a strange case. But what should a man marvel, if this fellow confound armour, and weapons, that would confound both Church and common wealth? Finally as if M. Cartwright had not been abused sufficiently by the Prefator in disguising him in the womanish attire and habit of innocency, he doth here make him play the part of Michael the Archangel, of whom he is made to borrow these words, The Lord rebuke thee. a person no way becoming him, having in his replies used far other style and language, and not contending as Michael did about the body of Moses, but about mere shadows and fancies. Let M. Cartwright take heed so many parts hath he played, that the Prefator if he continue on this course a while, make him not play S. George on horseback. for that in deed is his best part, threatening so long and striking never: riding continually, and yet never coming to his journeys end. All the world knoweth and seethe, that neither his deeds, nor his words are angelical. neither is he so victorious as Michael, being no way able to make head against his adversaries, or to answer their arguments. ¶ The preface. far 1 He was not indeed, like Sallust, an eloquent Orator. unlike to that babbling declaymor, who left us this 2 How is it a lesson? lesson of old: si quam maledicendo voluptatem 3 Note coepisti with an oe diphthong. coepisti, eam malè audiendo amittes. If thou have taken any pleasure in speaking that thou shouldest not: thou must lose it again by hearing that thou wouldst not. ¶ The answer. That M. Cartwright was unlike Sallust, or that I fail not, the author of that oration wherein these words were written, is not denied. for neither hath he the eloquence, nor the skill in Latin, that he that made that oration, had. nor did that author so fond talk and vainly write, as M. Cartwright doth. What reason then hath this odd babbler, and railer, to call him a babbling declaymer, but to show us, that this sect taketh pleasure to bite both quick and dead, and to babble without either rhyme or reason? beside this, what notorious ignorance is it to call these words which the Orator uttereth against his adversary, a lesson, as it were of a teacher to his auditory? indeed this Prefator doth well practise this supposed lesson, albeit he hath not so well learned the same. For if he had, he would not have written cepisti with an oe diphthong. he might therefore do well to spare to speak Latin, and let us hear some better English. ¶ The preface. Well knew the defender, that howsoever this might be 1 Doth not he feed his flesh as well as others? pleasing to the flesh, or keep 2 The Puritans do well like this music. descant with our corruption, yet he that says, mihi vindicta, had taught him another lesson, Namely that it could in no sort suit with the 3 Here is great talk of sincerity, but no good dealing. sincerity of the Gospel, to give check for check, and rebuke for rebuke. and therefore it is, that in his whole apology he hath not 4 I report me to his words, beside that, what M. Cartwright wanteth, that M. Prefatour supplieth, with whose doings, he was well acquainted. given his adversary so much, as one glance of reproach. ¶ The answer. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Now off go the robes of innocency, and that mask wherewith he hath been hitherto disguised, and M. Cartwright is brought forth, and spoken of in the masculine gender. but that he should be such a mielmouthed fellow as not to give his adversary one glance of reproach he would be sorry. For I pray you what doth this word slander set in the front of his book import? and why doth he so often charge me with untruth, shifting, and unchristian dealing. Besides that, is it likely, that this preface wherein so many reproaches and malicious terms are stuffed, should be put there without his privity? or must not he justify his preface, and answer for his friend's folly? Last of all, if he spare me here, which I know not for what respect he doth it, yet doth he not spare my betters else where. But, to cut this fellow down with his own phrases, he keepeth descant with his corruption, and pleaseth the flesh as much as his fellows. and what needed this brief, if he had not sought revenge, and meant to be quit with his adversaries? Let him therefore hear his fellows grave censure, that this his doing doth not suit with the sincerity of the Gospel, and take this of me that he hath been taught better lessons. But what praise his doings deserve, we shall better consider of in another place. here it shallbe sufficient for us to show, that M. Cartwright would not far so daintily nor feed so fatly, nor sing so merely as he doth, if he did not both please the flesh, and keep descant with his corruption too. But let him sing descant, and take pleasure in his crochet music as much as he list: he is to answer it, and not I so long as he breaketh not our patience with his importunate clamours, nor driveth the consort out of tune, I will not contradict him. ¶ The preface. Let this then be the 1 A pattern whereby to shape out an hypocritical grimare. pattern (good Reader, whosoever thou art) how to 2 These fellows do wrestle much, but affection foileth them still. wrestle with thy affections in the like assaults. ¶ The answer. In the former part of this preface, you have seen how the writer hath played the painter: now to teach you, that he hath more shifts and occupations to live by then one, he taketh upon him to play the doctor, and teacheth us that himself never learned; to wit, a long lesson of patience. so little doth he know in what ground he standeth, or what is convenient for him, that he preacheth patience out of his preface. Well, seeing he will needs teach us lessons, let us listen what he saith. Let this, saith he, be thy pattern. a misshapen pattern, certes, not worth two patars. for who wrestleth worse than he, that runneth out of the lists? and who is less valiant than he, that being as it were blown away with a tempest of his affections, for a simple revenge, set out this simple pamphlet good for nothing, but to make patterns for his daughter's pincases? The sequel will declare the same to be true. ¶ The preface. It is lamentable, I confess, that such unclean mouths as 1 Viz. Of job Throk. and his selowes. this, should 2 Viz. As the author of the preface doth. thus take their liberty to 3 M. Cartwr. hath much disgraced himself, to suffer such a lewd and foul mouthed proctor to plead in commendation of his innocency and patience. disgrace at will. ¶ The answer. If this man's mouth had been clean, he would not have uttered so many foul words, as he doth. wherein I would he did not bewray as well the malice of his heart, as the venom of his tongue. but this is but a peccadillio with this man. A worse matter it is, that even now having proposed unto us a pattern of patience, and set madame innocency before our eyes, that gave not so much as one glance of reproach to his adversary, he looking beside his pattern doth give reproaches to those that are not his adversaries, and doth degorge his stomach I know not against whom, calling them Rabshakeh, Senacherib, Shemei, and unclean mouths. by common construction of speech the words this, and thus, where he saith such unclean mouths as this, should thus take, are referred to the next person, that is to M. Cartwright and himself. so wisely doth the man couch his words, that he condemneth himself. and yet I am not ignorant, that he meaneth others. percase the rout of Martinists and such like, which have black and foul mouths, and have taken to themselves liberty to say what they list. If he mean me, as commonly he doth falling into his railing rage, he is to understand, that I have wronged none, nor spoken against any, but such as with open mouths have too long spoken against her majesties laws and government, the reverend Prelates of England, the ancient rites and ceremonies of Christ's Church. A matter much indeed to be lamented, albeit Martin and his brood, when time was, made a jest at it. ¶ The preface. But muse not at it, good Reader. 1 Here he looseth himself in a common place. it hath been so in all ages, and will be so still. for so long as the Lord giveth Satan leave to buffet and assail his Church, so long thou mayest be assured there will 2 Nor a Martin, nor such like railers, as this Prefator. never want a Rabshakeh, a Shimei, or a Senacherib to play their parts. ¶ The answer. So long as Martin hath any of his race living, or M. Cartwright may command such writers, as the author of this Preface; there shall not indeed want Rabshakethes, Shimees, and Senacheribs' to rail against God's Church, and to vex honest men. All this therefore, albeit spoken against others, yet most fitly may be applied against the heads of this sect. For who I beseech you hath more railed against the Church of England, and the present government, than the authors of the admonition, then M. Cartwright I Penry, job Throkmorton, and such Martinistes? who more like to Rabshakeh, Senacherib, or Shemei than they? they take themselves indeed to be the Church: but that is common to all schismatics, which profess to be that they are not. Haeretici & schismatici, saith S. 1 Lib. de fide & Symbolo c. 10. Augustine, congregationes suas Ecclesias vocant, sed haeretici de Deo falsa sentiendo ipsam fidem violant. schismatici autem discissionibus iniquis à fraterna charitate dissiliunt, quamuis ea credunt, quae credimus. quapropter nec haereticus pertinet ad Ecclesiam catholicam quoniam diligit Deum, nec schismaticus quoniam dilig it proximum. 2 Lib. 1. contr. Parmenium. Optatus calleth them rebels to the Church, and saith they are cut off from the Church. 3 De si l. ad Petrum. c. 38. &. 39 Fulgentius doth not only exclude schismatics out of the Church, but telleth them that eternal fire is their portion. The Church is but 4 joan. 10. one fold, and 5 Rom. 12. one body. how then are they of the Church, that as fishes slipped out of the net as it is written Luke 5. so are they departed out of the fold, and divided from the body? Are they to be reputed members that have no better union with the parts & true members of the Church? They allege they are no schismatics. but that is as clear, as that schismatics are no members of the Church. For first they have divided themselves from their Bishops, next they have erected, as it were, new altars and forms of sacraments; thirdly they have ordained ministers to themselves, and refused the ministers of the Church; and finally have publicly oppugned both the governors and government of the Church. and therefore either is not the Church of England God's true Church, or these men are schismatics. Who then doth not muse at the impudency of this fellow, that compareth those that defend the state and peace of this Church against mutinous Martinistes unto blasphemous Rabshakeh, and such railing fellows; being himself a chief railer, and seeing his fellows to have railed so injuriously against the Church of England? As for those whom he accuseth, they would be much ashamed, if they should not deal more modestly than he doth, and far more charitably. ¶ The preface. Nevertheless herein thou mayest 1 This sect doth well comfort themselves with wine and comfits. this exhortation is therefore needless. comfort thyself, if thou mark how, and in what sort this reviling 2 Viz. Of Martinists, and deformistes. generation is kerbed, as it were snaffled and restrained by the powerful and righteous hand of God, that in the midst of their forwardness and boldness to blunder out what they list without blushing, they can hardly for their lives 3 What a blundering stir have we here? blunder out a truth, as if the Lord in his secret judgement had purposely and apparently 4 O not orious blasphemy, of a wicked tongue! blasted their pen with a lying and distempered spirit. ¶ The Answer. We do in deed much comfort ourselves considering the special providence of God, and diligent care of the magistrate, that hath kerbed and snaffled the mouths of the Martinistes, which like wild asses lift up their heels and put forth their railing tongues against the fathers of this Church, and the chief governors of the Ecclesiastical state. Neither are we to fear, that such odious declaymers as this, that hath now taken to himself a little more liberty then ordinary, shall still be suffered to blunder out their tempestuous and railing speeches. As for those that have written in defence of the laws of England and ancient rites of the Church, they are not to take it to heart, albeit by this lewd fellow they be railed at, as a reviling generation, that blunder out untruth without shame. It is the fashion of heretics, schismatics and wicked companions to rail at honest men. so did Celsus and Porphyrius rail against the Christians, the Arrians against Athanasius, the schismatical Donatists against S. Augustine, the Anabaptists against true believers. What then although this railing Prefator do degorge his malice against us? why? hath he not also blasphemed the holy Spirit of God? doth he not say, that God doth blast men's pens with allying spirit, attributing the wicked action to God, which is the fountain of truth and all goodness? read the words, and examine them; and you shall find it to be as I say. He saith not, that God doth send out wicked spirits, or suffer wicked spirits of lying to blast men's pens: but, that God blasteth men's pens with a spirit of lying: as if Gods breathing or Spirit did infect men's pens with lying. Look on it M. Cartwright, and be ashamed to have such blasphemies in your book. at the least reprove him for it. as for job Throk. whose style this seemeth to be, he is ashamed of nothing. Is it not sufficient for you to abuse men, but you must also blaspheme God? And you my masters of the railing sect of Martinistes, before you accuse others of reviling, and blundering out untruths, look on yourselves and your fellows. I think M. Cartwright will not deny, but in his books he hath written many untruethes, and both he and others are still blundering out their consistorial conceits, in which there is neither truth, nor reason. But this man had only care to speak evil, that which should be his special care, he doth not regard. for he proveth nothing. I trust M. Cartwright, who is now canonised by this Prefator, and become S. Innocent, or rather innocency itself, will reprove him for it: and therefore I forbear further to distemper his discrasied brain. ¶ The preface. All which if thou find verified 1 But if this be gainsaid, and just exception taken against it, all this is but a foolish fancy. without all gainsay and exception in the writings of M. D. Sutcliffe & others of that 2 I wonder what hair these men be of, that have not one hair of an honest man. hair, and withal if thou see these men that do thus 3 Is any more heady or desperate than yourselves? headily and desperately lash on in disgrace of others, to be themselves in their several accusations so palpably taken tardy, that the very walls and 4 This stony rhetoric is able to move any stony heart. stones of the street may convince them of untruth: if, I say, thou find this to be true (and for 5 If this be your proof, I desire no better proof of your foolery. proof thereof I refer thee to this short and modest defence) have patience in thyself, and give the glory to God, who doth thus, thou seest, in his wisdom make a way and passage for the clearing of the innocent, even through the mouth and 6 Evil come to him that maliciously thinketh. malice of the accuser himself. ¶ The answer. If any man be able justly to prove, that to be verified in any writings which this man affirmeth, and no way is able to aver: then let me receive shame, and this man glory. Nay if I do not justify as much as I have affirmed, let me have punishment: which will wonderfully content this malicious generation. nay I will not take vantage of his words which give colour to any contradiction or gainsaying. But if I do not justify such matters, as I have affirmed; let law pass. But if I do not only gainsay, but justly gainsay M. Cartwr. defence, which is the whole proof of all this proud brag: then let me have this bragging fellow esteemed a vain man without all judgement, or modesty. Of what hair he is, I will not dispute, they say and I see, he hath not one hair of an honest man. He saith also, that other my fellows writings shallbe apparently convicted of untruth without all gainsay. and for proof referreth us to this brave defence of M. Cartwright. But his assertion is very impudent, and his proof ridiculous. for how doth M. Cartwright convince those against whom he saith nothing? was not the Prefator ashamed to shuffle things thus together? sure neither my friends nor I am afraid of any thing M. Cartwright either hath said, or can say against us. Neither do I think that he shall speed better than his friend job Throkmorton did the last year. he bragged much of his defence against my slanders, as he called them. but the matters are proved so true, that albeit the man hath great lust to bite and grinneth and grumbleth in corners, like a rough haired water spaniel, yet I do not once, as yet, hear him openly bark. And I hope likewise in this treatise so to refute this brief, that M. Cartwright will be advised, ere he send me forth his reply. by which I doubt not, but to make clear that I have not disgraced any wrongfully, nor been so unadvised, as this man giveth forth very unadvisedly, and impudently. There shall it appear also whether I have been taken so tardy, that the stones and walls may convince me of untruth, as he affirmeth very ridiculously. for what more blockish devise, then to make stones and walls disputers? Are these fellows so powerful that they can make walls to speak, and so dull that they cannot convince me, when stones and walls can do it? The walls he saith shall convince them. o brave flower of thetoricall amplification worthy to proceed from a man made of doogeon, nay made of stone, and to be set in a wall to confute all men that shall contradict the fancies of Puritanisme! But enough is said of these great brags. of the performance you shall hear more hereafter. as also who be those innocents, and malicious accusers he prateth of. ¶ The preface. Concerning such things as it pleaseth him so 1 If constantly, then virtuously. constantly to 2 No bastards shall be fathered on him. father upon M. Cartwright, and others by 1 I never fathered any thing on him by hearsay only. hearsay and report, I 2 Do you not hear I. Throk. cornemuse. cannot but muse that a man of his 3 Of what coat, jacket or jerkin are ye. coat and calling is no more smitten and abashed at it then he is. for presuppose, that one should hear by report, that M. Sutcliffe was once taken with 4 A ridiculous devise now newly cogged by job Throk. or some such mate. Ask Beza whether it be true. false dice at Geneva, and thereupon being forced to fly the town, should ever since bear a kind of inveterat hatred & malice to M. Beza and the 5 I never hated them, nor had to do with them, or they with me. elders there: this being known only to us by 6 Lie not so impudently. report (how true soever the thing might be in itself) I would feign know for my learning, whether this were aequa lance, or how it might suit with any measure of indifferency, forthwith without any further 7 Can you show that I publish matters only upon hearsay? if not, blush. examination to spread it abroadin print. ¶ The answer. I must needs confess, that if I did ground myself in those matters which I affirm concerning M. Cartwright upon a bare hearsay, or report without further examination, I had cause to be ashamed. the more shame for this impudent companion to forge and cog a matter not so much as upon hearsay, but without hearsay. and to charge me with 8 This is as true, as that my plate if at pawn at a butcher's house in Warwick. false dice and driving out of Geneva: matters which (God let me so ever enjoy his favour) as I never, so much as heard reported myself, before I read the same in this preface. so far am I from being guilty of this ridiculous coggery. To satisfy those that know me not, I answer first that I never could play nor used to play at dice in my life. secondly that I never was before the elders of Geneva while I was there. thirdly, I never hated them nor had cause to hate them, albeit I inquired whether any such Ecclesiastical officers were ever in the Church or no. four M. Beza, and the elders will give testimony of the untruth of this matter, and I doubt not but Beza, if he could have said any such thing of me, railing at mèe for no cause, would not have spared me in this point. fifthly M. Francis Brace a gentleman of Worcestreshire, and M. Miles Bodley a known minister of this Church can testify that I came from Geneva with credit, and with the favour of Beza and others the chief men of that city. for with them, I came thence. Lastly if any such thing had been, it would have been spoken of before this, it being 17. year since I came from thence. this report I think M. Throkmorton devised taking the pattern from himself being a cogging fellow, and driven, or at least running away out of the Parliament house for his lewd misdemeanours. the same toucheth me nothing. And thus much for this bald matter, and shameless slander to imitate my friend jobs words. As for those matters, that I object against M. Cartwright, they are of another nature. at least grounded upon sure proofs of records, confessions, witnesses, reasons, and such as M. Cartwright examining, shall confess his fellow Prefator to be unwise to devise this matter, or to compare it with his. as more evidently shall appear hereafter. ¶ The preface. And yet this ye shall 1 Name the particulars, and examine Master Cartwrights' brief. find to be an usual and ordinary course with M. 2 As honest a man as I. Throk. or M. Cartwright, and never called in question, as they have been. Deane of Exeter in his solemn 3 I inform against none, but deal with them on the way. informations, and personal plead against 4 I speak much against Hacket, Copinger, Wigginton, Vdal, Penry, Throk. Are these your good men? goodmen. ¶ The answer. I would to God the men, against whom I plead, were so good, as they would seem to be. sure I am, none are such as they should be. for than would not M. Cartwright nor his fellows so violently have oppugned the Ecclesiastical regiment of the Church of England, nor contumeliously have disgraced the reformation begun by her Majesty, nor impugned the prince's authority so baldly, nor railed against the chief prelate's so impetuously; neither was Hacket hanged drawn and quartered, nor was Penry hanged, nor did Copinger pitifully languish away, nor was job Throkmorton indited, nor were M. Cartwright and his fellows convented in the star-chamber for their goodness. Note therefore, that if sometimes speeches pass against them, it is not for their goodness, but for other matters: and that this Forespeaker hath no reason either to call these goodmen, or to condemn those that defend Religion, justice, laws, and government against the malcontent moths, and perturbers of this state. But whatsoever men they be, I do neither inform, nor begin any quarrel against them. I did answer the author of the petition, and did not challenge him. Likewise I answered M. job Throkmorton, and the man cannot say, but he is answered. Neither did I publish any thing against M. Cartwright, but divers years after he had reveled against the clergy of the Church. Personally I dealt against none, but such as had personally dealt against us, and professed themselves enemies of the Church. The matters that I charge them withal are built upon other grounds than hearsay. and that shall M. Cartwright well perceive when we come to refel his frivolous answers. M. Throkmorton hath found so firm reasons alleged against him, that he hath given over to contend vainly with words. and I doubt not, but others upon trial shall find the like. What an impudent fellow than was this to say, that my usual & ordinary proofs stand upon hearsay. but if any did; yet do they excel Throkmortons' answers. for we cannot hearsay that he hath publicly as yet, answered any thing in defence of his calumnious letter. so that it should seem, his defence standeth neither by truth, nor hearsay. More wisdom therefore were it for him, not to name the Dean of Exeter in such scornful manner, when all scorn him rather, that was overthrown in his own challenge, and never showed himself either at home or abroad to have any value. ¶ The preface. 1 Your partial dealing, and corrupt judgement hath made you very remarkable. Mark it who list in him. if the case concern any of these disciplinarians, he is of that 2 Is this any dispraise, to want neither wit, nor matter? good nature and ready wit, that rather than he will be to seek for matter, he will not stick to rake the channel sometimes, & take whatsoever comes next to hand, though it lie all to be trodden and 3 This raking and seraping of matters together, doth argue, that this man talketh like a channel taker. trampled on in the streets, yea and of that which, I believe, the poorest scavanger in a town would be loath to stoop for, he with a little help and forbishing of M. 4 Can you disprove his survey? Surveyor of discipline, frameth for the most part some 5 As yet, in truth you are silent, and say nothing to these conclusions. irrefragable and tempestuous conclusion against these new platformers. and then for sooth to the press it must in all 6 Unless the platformers had too much posted in setting forth their devices, they would not have set forth so crooked forms. post hast with some rhetorical varnish of innovation: as if 7 Albeit I could make quidlibet ex quolibet, yet can I not devise what to make of this foolish discourse. quidlibet ex quolibet, or as if the poorest and most 8 Our records are drawn out of M. Cartwrights' replies, and their own writings. Will they then call them patcheries? patched record under the Sun (that blasheth it may be, to see the light) were evidence strong enough against a 9 Do you call yourself so? why then do you blame others for so terming you? Precisian. ¶ The answer. He that list but to mark this kind of writing, he cannot I think be much enamoured with the author. What a stir is here with raking of channels, and talking of scavangers? o miserum lector obturanasum. our author all besmited with dirt, & inface to infacetior rure, is drawing of a draft of phrases from the channel, and from underneath men's feet. a very base and filthy kind of style. Besides that, very wisely he setteth down matter, that maketh against himself. for first he confesseth, that the things I object are so common, that they are to be found in the streets, and in the channels. belike they are foul matters. Next he saith, that I want no matter. which is true, and yet no great commendation for me. for he should have a barren head, that dealing against this sect, should want matter. thirdly he confesseth, that my conclusions are irrefragable and tempestuous. which declareth the goodness of my cause, and the weakness of the adversary. yea and albeit he should not confess it, yet would the silence of job Throkmorton, that of a clamorous Martinist is now made a silent 1 Varro lib. 3. de ling. 'las. Harpocrates, prove the same. As for that which he saith against those evidences which I have produced in my writings, they are such as job Throk. cannot disprove, and M. Cartwright will not deny, yea and all indifferent men cannot but allow. Nay the most things, that I object are proved out of M. Cartwrights' replies, Martin's libels, job Throk. authentical writings, which I trust this fellow will not call patched records, nor think so basely on them, that they are to be thrown down the channels, and trampled on with men's feet: or if he call these records base and patched; reprehend me for calling M. Cartwrights' bundle of replies, a farthel of foolery. divers things you shall see confessed. some things are proved by the records in the star-chamber. yea and against M. Throkmorton there be divers matters of record to be shown. which I hope he will not, and sure I am, he may not deny. And doth he call these things patched records, and torue papers cast forth into the streets, which no scavanger would stoop for? sure his aldermen which now and then consist of such scavangers, butchers, and base people would be glad to have such records to justify their doings withal. and yet albeit they moil in the mire, and rake the channels for all matters, they can find nothing that maketh for them. He objecteth also unto me my posting things (as he calleth it) to print, but he much forgetteth, how this hath been the common fault of his consorts, that have so posted to set forth their protestations, declamations, & replies, that for haste they forgot their duty to their superiors, and had no leisure to correct their lewd speeches, & heretical opinions. As for myself, (I must confesle, I should be much ashamed to set forth such patcheries, as this preface, or as M. Cartwr. brief, or M. Throk. letters, & libeling devices, and such admonitions, protestations, declamations and triobolar libels, as this sect hath published within these few years. Lastly he telleth me, I make quidlibet ex quolibet; and yet I cannot make a good Church officer of any of these new elders, nor a good elder of a scavanger, nor albeit I should refound him, a wise man of the author of this preface. ¶ The preface. Now there be that 1 Your thoughts are conceited, your opinions foolish. think, that of all other charges thus strangely and unworthily imposed upon this reverend man, the charge of ignorance, & that his works should be a 2 All earned men that read them, will testify the same. farthel of fooleries, is the most out of joint and approaching nearest to 3 If he were not past shame, he would not thus trifle. impudency. But sure for mine own part, I do not think so; neither do I see, why his adversary might not with as great reason, yea and with as good a conscience appeach him of ignorance, as of disloyalty. For allow that our 4 Will they deny his replies to be a farthel of foolery? it shallbe proved. universities together with foreign nations may sufficiently control the reporter in the one, yet this letteth not, but that the countries, and places of the man's resiance, can for 5 There is now great need. where is then this plentiful testimony? need, give as plentiful testimony in the other. and therefore why a man of that easy gift, and rolling vein, so 6 I never slipped into heresy, nor disloyalty as this sect hath. slipper in the sear, as M. Sutcliffe, should make it more dainty to spare M. Cartwr. in his learning, than he doth in his loyalty (having the like warrant and authority for both) I 7 Mark how this fellow confesseth, he seethe neither reason nor sense. see neither reason, nor sense. ¶ The answer. Here the Prefator moveth a needless controversy, whether M. Cartwright may with better reason be charged with ignorance, or with disloyalty. A matter which I not so much as thought of; and very prejudicial to M. Cartwrights' credit, whether it be resolved or disputed on. and yet this Prefator not only disputeth it, but resolveth it also and saith, How others think, that to charge M. Cartwr. with ignorance is mere impudency. so many universities, Churches, and nations being able to control it: and that he may with equal reason be charged with disloyalty, and ignorance. a matter founding very harshly (I think) in M. Cartwrights' ears. for which I refer the man over to be bastonated and corrected by M. Cartwright. that which he saith against me, whom he supposeth to have charged M. Cartwright both with ignorance, and disloyalty, remaineth of me to be answered. He saith first, that others think, meaning his own consorts. but if the Prefator will not believe what honest men upon just cause report, it skilleth not much, what such companions think. He giveth M. Cartwr. the title of reverend. yet doth he little deserve it, that never reverenced his superiors, nor respected antiquity, nor cared for law or duty. He disputeth, as if I should charge M. Cartwright simply with ignorance, which I do not remember. true it is, that I do charge him with ignorance in divers points. and that charge is neither strange, nor undeserved, nor untrue. His ignorance in all antiquity is totoo apparent. for all his plot of discipline is nothing, but a mere mistaking of ancient histories. all old writers do testify, that the ancient Church next after the Apostles had divers degrees of ministers of the word, and commonly name them, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. that appeareth out of Dionysius commonly called Areopagita, out of Ignatius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Eusebius, Hierome, Augustine, Theodoret and all the fathers, whose words are often cited by us to that purpose. The authors of the 1 Cent. 2. c. 7. de gubernat. eccles. Centuries confess, That the fathers of the Church that succeeded the Apostles, had degrees of persons in the Church. And yet M. Cartwright imagined, that all Bishops and ministers of the word were equal; and went about to prove it out of the Centuries. The ancient fathers give authority to Bishops over teaching elders; he abrogateth all authority from them, and maketh them equal, and all one. They speak only of elders that were ministers of the word; M. Cartwright affirmeth, that the priests that came to the council of Nice, (of which mention is made in 2 In vita Constantin. lib. 1. Eusebius and 3 Lib. 1. c. 8. Socrates,) were governing elders. But he should remember, they gave no definite voice, and should have been excluded from the company of their wives, if Paphnutius had not resisted the purpose of those, that would have that decree pass: which to interpret of elders only governors, is mere ignorance in matter of history, and direct against M. Cartwr. plot. His ignorance in the father's appeareth both by the former argument, and by his continual misallegation, and misconstruing of them. To go no further, examine that chapter or 1 1. reply. section which he hath framed to prove that the election of ministers ought to be made by the people. And also 2 1. reply. p. 99 & 100 those places where he would prove, that Bishops whereof the ancient fathers make mention, were only pastors of one parish, and had none other pastors or parishes, but one underneath them. His ignorance of divinity is testified to the world, first, by his unadvised approbation of Fenners book, which is the overthrow of all divinity, although called by M. Cartwright holy divinity, and approved for an excellent piece of workmanship: next, by the new confession of faith, and new forms of sacraments set down in that new Communion book, whereof he was either chief author or chief favourer and approver. Lastly in that new discipline, which he falsely affirmeth to be drawn out of God's word. His ignorance in the Latin tongue is made famous by that Epistle of his, that is set before Fenners book, which is the only thing of his, that ever I saw in Latin, and is full of soloecismes. In the beginning there is a gross soloecism in these words: Tua legens, etc. subijt mentemde Mose viro Dei historia. Likewise an impropriety in these words coelestis Canaan axiomata. for axiomata signify rules of art, not laws of state. These words, ut me adomnia mea officia quae in te proficisci possunt arctius devinxeris, have bad sense, and a barbarous phrase. In the 2. page lin. 14. communices, is put for communicaris nay, as it seemeth he understandeth not Latin well. Cyprian hath sportulantes fratres in a certain Epistle. this he 3 2. reply. tract. eldership. imagined to be brethren of the basket, where it may appear Cyprian mean● brethren, that received wages. So that if he were to be charged with disloyalty, as well as with ignorance, in some points, yea & not very difficult neither, it were no wisdom for I. Throk. to be his half. I do also call his replies a fardel of fooleries, ●haynous, and odious crime. yet I suppose there is no learned man, that thinketh otherwise. M. whitaker's giveth a very hard censure upon his second reply, wherein notwithstanding M. Cartwright seemeth most to triumph. Quem Cartwrightus (saith 1 In a certain letter to be shown. he) nuper emisit libellum, eius magnam partem perlegi. ne vivam, si quid unquam viderim dissolutius, ac penè puerilius. Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac novam suppellectilem habet, rerum omnino nullam, quantum ego judicare possum. Deinde non modo perversè de principis in rebus sacris atque Ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit, sed in 2 M. Whitaker toucheth him aswell for disloyalty as unlearned writing. Papistarun etiam castra transfugit, à quibus tamen viders vult odio capitali dissidere. Verùm nec in hac causa ferendus, & alijs etiam in partibus tela à Papistis mutuatur. denique, ut de Ambrosio dixit Hieronymus, verbis ludit, sententijs dormitat, & planè indignus est, qui à quopiam docto refutetur. That which I say in general, he saith in particular. neither do I think, that either any University, or sound learned man will say the contrary. Against the first reply this may be said, that if he show learning in any thing, it is in the treatise of election of ministers. which notwithstanding is either translated or stolen out of a 3 In append. ad cattle. test. verit. treatise of Illyricus of the same argument. That which he hath of Archbishops and Bishops, as most of his other devices, he borroweth of Caluin, and Beza. and indeed to say truth, he is most skilful in Caluins institutions. but take him beyond that, and he wandereth and turneth like a mariver tossed on the sea without help of star, or compass. I will not speak of his style, that is so hard and rough, and so stuffed with far fetched, and out stretched metaphors. This book of his will give testimony, how unpleasantly he writeth. and I mean not to follow him further, then is necessary to justify my former sayings; which upon pain of hearing the lie, I am compelled to maintain. But saith he, Vniver sities, Churches, and nations will give testimony of his learning. true, and oft times they give it upon favour or other respect. which whether it be done in him or no, I will not examine. for I deny not, that M. Cartwright is a man learned. but that he is excellently learned, and not ignorant in the points wherein I have justly noted him, that would be proved. As for the charge of disloyalty, I do not think, that I have simply and directly laid it upon M. Cartwright. yet, if any such matter should have been spoken, it might reasonably well have been justified. M. Whitaker in the place before recited doth touch him for the same matter: and his books published abroad do sufficiently convict him. In a 1 Disciplina eccl. sacra Dei verbo descript. certain form of discipline, about which M. Cartwright and divers others had long beaten their heads, and which they profess to be that discipline, which they desire, as drawn out of the Scriptures for the good government of the church, all government is given to the eldership, and the prince's authority neither excepted, nor mentioned. to this form M. Cartwright subscribed. Beside this, if disloyalty be nothing, but a course either repugnant, or divers from laws & duties; it is no such heinous matter to charge him with disloyalty. for what are his replies, and all his actions, but contradictions, and spurnings, and mutinous repine against laws and governors? I need not to object unto him his familiarity with I. Throk. a man so well acquainted with Penry, Hacket, and Copinger, nor his own knowledge of their general bad intentions. neither will I put him in remembrance of all his negotiaon about the new discipline, and the new Communion book: nor his secret consultations, nor his intelligences with men of foreign nations, and all for alteration of the ecclesiastical state, & laws. I will not say all, until I be urged. in the mean while M. Cartwright hath reason rather to think me patiented in suffering his abuses, than himself abused, or injuried in this point, that is therein touched so gently: and evil doth this Praefator deserve at his hands, that giveth occasion to look upon the man's old sores, which were now bound up; and to rub up matters both forgiven, and forgotten. himself, certes, was not wise, to renew this quarrel, which he will, ere long, wish ended, and buried in silence. the whole brotherhood of deformity will wish he had been well couched in a soft featherbead, to dream of a new plot of reformation. But doth the Praefator say, the countries & places of his resiance give plentiful testimony for his loyalty; as if guilty persons convicted by witnesses, and evident proofs, were to be acquitted for general testimonials given to every body upon every light occasion. It is a common saying, that 2 Plus creditur uni affirmanti quammille negantibus. one witness in the affirmative proveth more than 1000 in the negative. how can they then that knew not these matters clear him, that is convicted by witnesses, and his own writing? the Praefator therefore, that could neither see reason, nor sense in my doings, seemeth to have little sense of seeing, neither hath he any great judgement in discerning. he denieth all, but what proof doth he bring for his denial? just nothing; but slipping into his hunter's vein, saith, I am slipper in the sear. which kind of style doth argue this preface to be I. Throk. a better hunter than writer, and a man of so slipper and light behaviour, as that Th. Cartwright for all his great learning, can not defend him nor guard him from just reprehension. ¶ The preface. The 1 The best of this Preface and treatise, is stark nought. best is, thou hast here by this means (good Reader) in the evenness and 2 How then happeneth it, that he complaineth of wrong? equability of the Doctor's hand towards this man, an unfallible line laid before thee, whereby thou mayest measure all the rest of his 3 All these are nought but railing words of a chafing Prolocutor. reproaches so unconscionably thrown upon others. for hath he dealt 4 More truly, Christianly, and charitably, than he hath dealt with the whole Clergy of England. truly, modestly, charitably, and Christianly with this man? then make thou no doubt or question, but he hath afforded full as good measure to others. On the contrary, hath he made no bones hand over head, and that beyond all 5 I have kept better compass then M. Cartwright. compass of Christianity, to speak his pleasure of this man, being a man so notably graced in 6 By gifts he fareth the better. gifts, and one that hath so many uncontrollable 7 What notable graces, & certain evidences of honest carriage of himself he hath, doth evil appear by this Brief. evidences of his wise, and dutiful carriage of himself? ¶ The answer. It should seem, that job Thr. who (I think) was the rude author of this unpolished & uncivil preface, would very gladly take some advantage of my unadvised dealing (as he taketh it) with M. Cartwright, to clear himself: as if that which I said against him were nothing, because it is not true, as he believeth, that I bring against M. Cartwright. but it will not be. This therefore is to be put among the rest of his odd, or rather mad conclusions, which in his moody passion he frameth beside all mood and figure. his argument standeth upon particulars, and therefore hath no good sequel. for he that speaketh untruth in one thing, may well speak truth in other things; and although a man should uncivilly demean himself towards one; yet doth it not follow, that he should do it against all. for if that were granted, then were not M. Cartwr. and job Throk. to be credited in any thing, uttering so manifold untruethes in many things. nor were they to be so well accounted of among their consorts, that have so misdemeaned themselves against the Prelates of this Church, & divers other honest men. To let the advantage of the bad sequel of this argument go, I will not stick to grant M. Throk. this favour, that my dealings with M. Cartwright be taken as a pattern of the rest of my writings. such is the assurance of my plain, and honest dealing with him, and of his bad dealing & misdemeanours against the state. God is my witness I have not charged him wittingly with untruth, nor dealt unconscionably with him: and that I hope to make good either by M. Cartwrights' own words, or by evident and sufficient proofs. and so not only M. Throkmortons' cause will still lie in the suds, but M. Cartwr. also will win small grace by his calumnious, and erroneous brief. Besides all this, there is no small difference betwixt M. Carwright and M. job Throkmorton. he is a man not unlearned nor uncivil, nor furious: M. job is neither well learned, nor stayed, nor wise. but be he what he will, I will, by God's help, justify my doings to be far more charitable, just, and honest, then either his, or M. Cartwrights'. how well they are able to clear themselves of unconscionable, and unhonest practices, doth partly appear by that which is said against job Throk. and he can not answer; and partly shall more appear in this Treatise, against M. Cartwright, and as oft as they shall dare to stand upon their pretended, and puritan innocency. Neither have I, as he lewdly affirmeth, taken things hand over head, or rashly spoken what I listed, but with good reason & deliberation, and that according to good dealing, and a good conscience. for proof whereof, I appeal, not only to all judicious and in different readers, but also to M. Cartwrights' own weak discourse; wherein, either in effect he confesseth as much as I say; or else can not prove that I have done him wrong. Wherefore let these uncivil terms of untrue, and dishonest, and unconscionable dealing, and such like, be esteemed as the froth of the foul mouth of an angry and clamorous adversary, that hath more malice in his stomach then wit in his head, and more audaciousness to affirm, than power to prove, or cause to utter. Of M. Cartwrights' gifts I will not dispute. of his honest carriage, I will reason no more than I am urged to; and that in his proper place. ¶ The preface. If he have done this (as the reading of this 1 This Apology will rather condemn him, than clear him. apology will make it clear unto thee) than what reason hast thou to marvel, if thou see him now and then most 2 Fowl and shameful words, without cause uttered. foully and shamefully overreach himself against others, that are far 3 I. Throk. short of M. Cartw. and both short of dutiful dealing. short of this man in judgement and sufficiency? ¶ The answer. What reason this babbling fellow hath to repeat these words so often in this preface, which should be so short; let the reader judge, unless he meant with his tediousness to recompense M. Cartwrights' brevity, I see none. With like reason he beginneth to be angry with his reader, and to chide, and say, What reason hast thou to marvel? as if any had cause to marvel at any thing here, save the presumptuous folly of the author of this preface. I for my part, how short shaped so ever M. Throkmorton may be, and of what small judgement and sufficiency he is, I may truly say, I have offered him no wrong, nor M. Cartwright neither. Nay, albeit I had said more, yet should I neither have overreached myself, nor their deserts. Let him therefore cease his foul speeches, and shameless outcries, and stay until he hear what I shall say to M. Cartwrights' apology. which is so far from clearing either of these two, that both of them, I doubt not, will wish it had been in a clear fire, when first it was printed. The preface. It is 1 I pray you, where? written of Socrates, that being unjustly put to death without cause: while he was 2 He imagineth he went to hanging. going to execution, his 3 Would M. Throk. wife do the like in like case? wife followed him aloof off, howling, and weeping, and crying aloud: o my husband dieth guiltless, dieth guiltless. Whereupon the good old man looking back upon her with a frowning and angry countenance, replied 4 Not one word so. thus: why thou foolish woman, wouldst thou have me die guilty? This being a speech of an heathen man void of the true knowledge of God, will 5 Do you believe the resurrection of speeches in your puritan creed? rise up (I fear) in judgement against many of 6 Us puritanes, that want no corruptions. us, that profess christianity in this age, whose common corruption is such, that when we are wrongfully burdened with any matter of disgrace, we fret at nothing more, then that the thing is 7 Therefore to makey our worship leave fretting, nothing shall be objected here but truth. false, that is so charged upon our 8 Brave heads to bear charger. heads. Why, if I were guilty, (saith 9 No wise man will so say. one) or if it were true that they report of me, it would never grieve me: whereas in truth (if we did rightly consider of it) it should grieve us and 10 This humility puritans want as well as Lombard's. humble us most to be guilty, or that these things should be true, that are thus blown abroad against us. Wilt thou 11 Will ye see a Friar frapart begin to preach? know then good reader, how to carry thyself when thou art 12 He telleth not how. thus injuriously dealt with by any false charge or imposition? Look upon the 13 Not upon I. Throk. nor his consorts. example of the holy Saints and servants of God in the Scriptures, and as thou seest them do, so do thou. Anna when she was charged by Eli to be 14 These men when they are charged truly, do not answer so mildly. drunken, did not fret or snuff at it, or look upon the man with a disdainful eye, but in much patience and modesty made answer: Nay my lord not so; I have drunk neither 15 The puritans are unlike to Anua, for divers of them can not well dine without good claret wine and sack: & some drink rosa solis, and sinnamom water. wine nor strong drink, but have powered forth my soul before the Lord: count not thy handmaid a wicked woman, for of the abundance of my grief have I spoken, etc. S. Paul likewise when he was charged by Festus to be beside himself was (we see) no whit distempered, or inflamed with it, but made answer in all wisdom and reverence: I am not 16 These fellows are not charged to be mad, but when they are in deed besides themselves. mad most noble Festus, but I speak the words of truth and soberness, etc. this then must be thy course (good reader) and these be the 17 M. Throk. never found them yet. steps that thou must tread in. thou knowest whose counsel and admonishment it is, not to suffer 18 I trust john Penry did not suffer, but as a malefactor. as a malefactor. Look thou to that then in any case. Hic 19 This prefator albeit he have a brazen face, yet hath nothing to do with this brazen wall. murus aheneus esto, Nil conscire sibi, nulla pallescere culpa. Keep thou still a 20 Listen M. Throk. good conscience, and let the 21 To have clear hearts, these fellows degorge their filthy stomachs. clearness of thy heart and innocency of thy hands be as a wall of brass unto thee, and leave the rest to the Lord, to do what seemeth good in his own eyes. and then if Satan do rage, or his 22 Such were the Martinists. instruments do revel or revile never so much, terming thee a drunkard, a mad man, a traitor, a conspirator, an innovator, or what they will else: be not thou 23 Why then is this prefator thus troubled? troubled or dismayed with it, but rather rejoice & give God thanks. For if thou be able truly to say with the Apostle: by honour and dishonour; by good report and evil report; as deceivers and yet true, etc. then (howsoever the blood thirsty may 24 As the dogged Martinists did. gnash and grind their teeth at thee) thy conscience may be at 25 The reprobate past feeling, are at peace with themselves. peace, and thou mayest cheerfully answer thy good friends (that are peradventure aggrieved to see the falsehood and indignity of the impositions laid upon thee) as Socrates 26 Before he reported these words otherwise. did to his wife. Why my 27 As Socrates spoke to his wife, so the puritans speak thus to theirs. masters, would you have me suffer guilty, or be slandered and evil spoken of deservedly? Thus doing what knowest thou whether the Lord (who hath the hearts of all men in his hands) will 28 If M. Throk. & M. Cartw. understand this of themselves, they do but dream. make thy condemners to be thy clearers, and thy enemies thy friends, yea and turn all this storm and tempest of 29 That which is said of M. Throk. and M. Cartwr. shallbe proved to be no untruth, storm at it as much as they list. untruths to thy further peace clearing, and security in the end? for was there ever a more bitter and malicious enemy, than Saul was to David? and yet we see how the Lord forced this wretched man (after many false surmises, and unjust jealousies of treason and conspiracy against him) to pronounce sentence for 30 These men are more like Saul, than David. David's acquittal in these words, thou art more righteous then I. ¶ The answer. All this is nothing, but a vain declamation of an idle fellow to exhort men to patience. wherein the author pleaseth himself far better, than he contenteth others. For what, I pray you, maketh this to purpose, how patiently or impatiently this sect doth hear their faults reproved? It is written, saith the prefator, of Socrates. but where I pray you? forsooth no where, save in this preface, or in some such like trifling ballad or pamphlet. For Socrates was not led to execution, as this fellow, that hath the fear of the gibbet still before his eyes, imagineth; but died of poison in his own house, as 1 judic. Socrat. Plato and other witness: who make no mention of the howling of his wife, upon which this supposed discourse is grounded. He telleth us further, how the speech of Socrates shallrise up in judgement against many puritans: which is a very strange case. for if speeches rise up, beware of M. Cartwr. replies, that are so full of words without matter, and are light like bladders full of wind, and likely to fly far abroad. The rest of this discourse is an idle digression, wherein the author falleth into a foolish chafe with those, that fret when they are falsely accused; and is angry that all his consorts are not so patiented as was Anna, David, Paul, and other of God's servants. but he hath no reason. for his fellows be liker to railing Shimei, and such malcontents as Shibah, or Ahitophel, or like jeroboam. For so these men would have us all to worship and fall down before their churchaldermen, which are nothing but a pack of golden calves like those of Bethel, & would turn men from a settled state to seek a new church discipline, as jeroboam turned the children of Israel from the service of God, to embrace a new worship in Bethel. Further he exhorteth all that love the eldership, to suffer false reproaches patiently. yet I know none that reproacheth them falsely. nor doth job Throkmorton cease whining, albeit he can say nothing for himself, nor can M. Cartwright keep silence, albeit he would seem patiented, as appeareth by his brief. evil therefore doth this exhortation sit in this man's mouth. He doth also exhort men, not to suffer as malefactors: but this cometh somewhat to late. for john Penry and divers of his consorts have suffered as malefactors already. For answer of the rest of this section, I refer you to the notes in the margin of the text: a worthy answer for such vain words. ¶ The preface. And who knows, whether the Lord may work the 1 No doubt he would, if I had committed like offence. like effect and remorse in M. Sutcliffe ere he die, even to force him in like manner (after all his 2 Cease your foolish railing. & prove that I have unjustly accused any. bundle of outcries and unjust accusations) to 3 O fond and simple fellow, as if I had done like job Throk. I know not what! pass the white stone on the behalf of the accused, and himself to pronounce: That certainly Thomas Cartwright and 4 What hath Egerton to do here? St. Egerton are more righteous than he, and thereupon to add 5 Speak for yourself. & play the fool still, I will play no part in your fooleries. farther as the same Saul did afterward, I have sinned, I have played the fool, I have erred exceedingly, in slandering & belying the innocent. 6 O vain man to talk thus, what is good for others, that knoweth not what is good for himself! Sure I am, it were happy for him, if he might live to do this of conscience. but whether he do or no, labour thou always (good reader) so to 7 I walk not then in the way of puritans, nor sit not in the seat of scornful Martinists. walk as thou mayest not justly be touched with any thing that may be a stain to thy holy profession. ¶ The answer. Here toward the end of his preface, the author forgetteth himself, and falleth into a dream. wherein he imagineth that in the end M. Cartwright and M. Egerton, and I shall become friends: which is not unlikely. but not in that sort, which he fancieth; but rather when Th. Cartwr. and M. Egerton shall have publicly retracted their errors, and acknowledged the wrong they have done to the church of England. which if reason and conscience move them not to do: yet I hope law will in the end enforce them. But if they refuse to stand to law, and will still rage's and rail against the ecclesiastical state: rather will children throw stones at them as against mad men, then wise men pass any white stone of absolution on their side. As for my part, I have not written any thing concerning the cause of this church, whereof I need to stand in doubt as they have done. Wherefore the prefator may do well to turn his speech to his friends, that percase may hearken to his advise, and follow it. He knoweth, that in this cause I am his adversary, and am well acquainted with his folly; wherein I leave the man still raving like those that cast stones into the air, and so proceed. ¶ The preface. And so harbouring still in thy breast the 1 He is altogether a stranger to this crooked generation. comfortable guest of a good conscience (as an assuagement of all the miseries and 2 Doth he not plainly confess himself to be a malcontent. discontentments of this life) cease not to pray in the 3 He saith well in the spirit: for voices of prayer, or praises for her Majesty, or the state we seldom hear to proceed out of their mouths. spirit for the peace of Jerusalem, and for her right excellent majesty, that hath been so long Gods good instrument of that happy peace, that as josua commanded the Sun to stand, till he were avenged on his enemies, so the Lord would command this 4 This sunshine the disciplinarians have much obscured with the mists of their turbu- jent stirs. sunshine of our peace to stand, and never to go down, till all the 5 Then should M. Cartw. and I. Throk. lie in the mire. enemies of his church be brought low to the dust. and as that was the longest day that ever was, so this having been already by the mercy of God the happiest, may also prove by the power of God to be 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the longest reign that ever was. That the date of her life may (if it please the Lord) end with the 7 Vae generationi huicà fermento Tharisaorum. Bornard. in cant. last date, and dissolution of this earth, to the 8 Diligamus non verb & lingua, sed opere & veritate. 1. joan. 3. continuallblisse and renown of this land, to the terror and amazing of the wicked, to the comfort and rejoicing of the godly, and to her own everlasting peace, and happiness in the life to come. ¶ The answer. Of all the guests that come to the synoddicall meetings, & houses of these sectaries, there is no greater stranger, than this guest called Good conscience, that he talketh of. for neither in their public writings against the church, and chief governors thereof, nor in their private negotiations and contracts, do they (for any thing I can learn) use either good conscience, or good dealing. Other good fellows there are, that do frequent their houses more often, as pride, disdain, malice, envy, hatred, detraction, lying, oppression, folly, fury, and such like, with which they are better acquainted. but it is an easy matter to hide soul matters under fair words. Wolves are disguised oft times in sheep's clothing: and poison is sometimes given in honey: Impia sub dulci melle venena latent. Take heed therefore of malcontents, that cut men's throats with their good conscience: and do not strait think, that these men love her majesty, for that they make such glozing and flattering prayers. it may be, in over mel, in cord fel. All men honour the sun in the midst of the firmament, but when night cometh, they fall on sleep and forget all. And of them we may truly say, That they flattered with their mouth & dissembled with their tongue, Psal. 78. but their heart is not upright. for if these kind of men had truly loved her majesty, and from their heart prayed for her, they would not have prayed for her in spirit only, as this man would have his consorts to do, but expressed their affection in their words: they would also in their prayers as other good subjects do, have expressed and given to her, her due style. they would not have covertly and cunningly taken from her all power in ecclesiastical govemment, as they have done, not once so much as mentioning either her, or her royal authority in their book of holy and synoddicall discipline, to which M. Cartwright and many others subscribed, they would not have impugned her laws, and by right and wrong sought to have altered her government, and to have established new laws and orders in this church. they would not have disgraced that blessed reformation which we do enjoy by her means, neither would 1 Gilby p. 66. 88 & 142. & Motion with submiss. p. 31. 32. 33. they have resembled her to jeroboam, Ahab, jehoram, Ahas, Gedeon, Nadab, Saul, jehu, and Asa in those points wherein they failed in their duties toward God. neither would M. Cart. have made her majesty and all princes subject to the eldership. which is nothing else but for the supremacy of the Pope, to bring in the supremacy of the eldership, and (as he 1 2. part 2. reply, pag. 65. & 92. saith) to make princes to lick the dust of their feet. so that where we had well hoped that we had been delivered from kissing the Pope's feet, they would make us not only to kiss the feet of a pack of base peasants and artisans, but also to lick the dust under their feet. Much (I do know) they do brag of their loyalty and good minds. but give me the heart, and let them leave their glorious words. What service at any time have they done her majesty at home or abroad, in arms or in peace, in the church or common wealth? nay rather where have they not been ready to 2 Martin was then published to make a mutiny at home, when the Spaniards were on the coast, to fight with us abroad. cross those that have been ready to do her service, and to trouble the state at home, as valiant men defended the same abroad? they may do well therefore to have a more principal regard of her majesty, and their duty towards her hereafter, & not either to shut her out of their discipline, as they have done, or else to prefer Th. Cartwr. innocency before her safety, as this wretched prefator hath done, painting him out first in many strange colours, and gilding, as they say, earthen pots in many golden words, and not remembering her, save in the last clause, and to no purpose. Which fault to amend, let us desire God not only to shield her from her open enemies, but also to discover all her dissembling friends, and to guard her from their treacherous practices, and lewd disgraces; that she may be no less victorious over her open foes, then secured from her pretended friends. But enough of this malicious, and yet most worthless & graceless preface. Let us now come to M. Cartwrights' brief, which is the foundation of the prefators vain brags, & that thing that gave the title to this work, and with whom our principal purpose is to deal, if it may so please his highness, who scarce vouchsafeth to look down upon me, or to speak to me in his Treatise. the words of his brief, I set down truly and entirely, lest thereby he might think to escape with some advantage. THE EXAMINATION OF M. Cartwrights' Apology. M. Cartwright. HIs 1 Great words small reason. slanders are either in 2 Do slanders consist in breach of duties? breach of necessary duties imposed upon all Christians, or in things which in their nature being 3 Who ever heard of any man slandered for use of things indifferent, beside this abbreviator? indifferent, are by him (in respect of mine 4 If he have any royal or honourable estate put on him by the eldership, it is more than I knew. estate) given out as things of no good report. 5 All these words M. Cartwright doth falsely entitle D. Sutcl ffes charge. So little had he to say, if he would have reported my words as I spoke them. In the former kind is his charge of conspiracy with Hacket and Copinger, to a mutual communication with Copinger by word, writing, and consenting fol. 10. p. 2. and fol. 44. p. 2. and that he did not dissuade him, but rather willed him, that he should attempt nothing but by advise, and that he should be wise and circumspect. Which words he setteth down in a divers letter, from the letter of his own book: as if they were words of a letter of Thomas Cartwright to Copinger. fol. 48. p. 2. Matth. Sutcliffe. THe Prologue ended, now cometh M. Cartwright in to play his part: but so unhandsomely, as that every judicious reader complaineth, that he is greatly abused both by the Prologue and by him. The Prologue told us of a man that should play innocency, and come in armed with patience: but M. Cartwright that should do the feat, faileth in both: for neither doth he deal justly, as becometh innocency; nor patiently, as armed with patience. The first is proved by divers reasons throughout this whole treatise, and here especially in that he changeth and falsifieth my words. The second is evident, in that he crieth out of slanders, and hath neither patience to bear, nor wisdom to forbear. Oh that he could aswell endure to hear himself reproved, as commended! certes these impatient complaints of slanders had not needed. but I see, men naturally love to feel themselves clawed, and think themselves worthy of all praise: and M. Cartwright himself, for all his supposed innocency, is not yet sufficiently purged of this humour. There is nothing that tendeth to the exalting of his credit and reputation, but he embraceth it: he is content that 1 Chap. to F. 1585. special prayers be made for him. A certain follower of his signifieth that upon 2 M. R. to F. news of his deliverance, the society being called together, there were Psalms of thanksgiving, & prayers, & a Sermon made for the same. It pleaseth him that his adherents make such account to see him, to confer with him, to read his books. I would gladly know (saith 3 Gelibr. to F. one) when I might come from Oxford to London to see M. Cartwright. I thank God (saith 4 Far. to Litl. another) I have satisfied in part my longing with conference with M. Cartwright, of whom I think, as she (he meaneth the Queen of Saba) did of 5 M. Cartwright another Solomon. Solomon. Fenner writing against M Bridges, 6 p. 120. saith, that the form of government set down by M. Cartwright, is commanded by God. he hath percase consulted with God himself. We want books ( 7 Gel. to F. an. 1586. saith one Gellybrand) whereby we may come to the knowledge of the truth. I mean (saith he) T. C. books. A brave direction to come to the truth. One Gayton in a letter to Field prayeth him to remember to reserve for him one of the rare birds books: and saith that well he may be called Cartwright. viz. for well writing. How birds may write, and how he may allude from the name of Cartwright to cunning writing, I forbear to dispute. for it were to no purpose to ask reason of every action of these men. M. Cartwright also doth well like to hear of his own praises. commonly they call him most reverend, as did one 8 Chap. to F. Chapman. Gayton calleth him a rare bird, & that is no owl, but some phoenix. 9 Far. to Littl. one doth esteem him, as the Queen of Sheba did Solomon. Wiggington 10 Exam. Wigg. confesseth, that Arthington, Copinger, and Hacket, the very day that the two first made their Proclamation in Cheapside, told him that M. Cartwright had done more against Antichrist then any in the world, since the Apostles times. but yet that is nothing in respect of that which one writeth to 11 Cholm. to Field 1582. Field of that man. Sicut discipuli (saith he) olim presto habueaunt ipsum dominum: ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo praesentem. He compareth himself and his fellows to the Apostles, and M. Cartwright to Christ. and M. Cartwright disdeineth not to be called of his fellow minister lord. nay M. Traverse disdeinfully checketh 12 Trau. def. p. 32. M. D. Bridges for that he said, Cartwright, without giving him his titles. all this pleaseth and contenteth M. Cartwright reasonably well. but now that I do plainly tell him the truth, he is offended, and crieth out of slanders. Is it not verified in him, that is commonly said, that flattery procureth friends, and truth enemies? Well, let us see what reason he hath to complain thus grievously of slanders. His slanders (saith M. Cartwright) but whose slanders, his conscience percase would not suffer him to set down: or if his conscience, that is herein hardened, would suffer him, yet by God's just iudgeement he did not, to declare the wrong he hath herein done to me. for if by slander he mean that which in Latin we call calumniam, I have not slandered him; for 13 ff. ad S.C. turpil. l. 1. calumnia est criminis falsi in alium intentio: as hath been showed. but that which I say, either is not criminous, as himself in part confesseth, saying, that my slanders are but reports in matters indifferent: or else very true, as shallbe averred. 14 l. eum ff. de iniurits. Eum autem qui nocentem infamavit, non est bonum, aut aequum ob eamrem condemnari. If by slander he mean that which we call iniuriam, & unde actio iniuriarum oritur, then have I not injuried him, nor slandered him; for my writings, as they were all begun and published in defence of laws and orders, so was there nothing in them but according to law. 15 ff. de iniuriis. l. iniuriarum. Is auten, saith Ulpian, qui iure publico utitur, non videtur iniuriae faciendae causa hoc facere. juris enim executio non habet iniuriam. but with M. Cartwright and his consorts it is not so clear; for first they have injuriously uttered words to the disgrace, not only of particulars, but also of the whole clergy of this Church of England: and therefore by the laws of the Romans are condemned; and that first, for uttering reproachful words: & next for their infamous writings. 16 l. Item apud labeon. §. ait praetor. ff. de iniuriis. qui adversus bonos mores convicium cui fecisse dicetur, in eum judicium dabo, saith the Praetor or chief justice of Rome. Hi qui, saith 17 ff. eod lib. illud. §. si quis librum. Ulpian, librum ad infamiam alicuius pertinentem 18 Listen M. Throl morton. scripserit, composuerit, ediderii, 19 Listen M. Cartwright. dolóue malo fecerit, quo quid eorunfieret, etiamsi alterius nomine ediderit, de ear agere (sc. iniuriarum) licet. These are therefore libelers, slanderers, and by law not to be received as witnesses in judgement, nor to make testament. I would be very much ashamed, if they had any such matter to object against me. And yet notwithstanding both his own guiltiness & mine innocency M. Cartwright, as I perceive, meant to charge me with slanders, and that not only in breach of necessary duties, but in things indifferent also, as he saith. a matter very strange, and new, and to express them lively, like to his fancy of discipline: that is, fantastical, and very absurd. for neither is the breach of duty the object of slander, nor do reports in things indifferent bring infamy, but so long hath the man been striving about things indifferent, as he calleth them, that he knoweth not the difference of things simply evil, or absolutely good or indifferent. Beside that, he shall find by particulars, that either I do not object the matters which he would enforce upon me, or that I do prove them sufficiently. Wherefore, unless his estate, of which he here speaketh, be greater than I do imagine, it will be no slander to tell him, that his division of slanders, and first entrance into his purpose is very rude and simple: and that he doth me wrong to challenge me either for slander or wrong offered to him. and that shall appear, by the grace of God, throughout this whole discourse. The first thing wherein he chargeth me to have slandered him, is conspiracy with Hacket and Copinger: a matter, that I utterly disavow. Why then doth he not justify his charge, and bring in his proofs? in the places which he quoteth in my answer to Throkmortons' letter, there is no such matter. Nay, I do not so much as name conspiracy in respect of his dealings with them. if any do charge him, it is his own guilty conscience, that doth charge him, and his faltering tongue that runneth percase unawares upon the truth. for mine own part, I do neither charge him, nor can I discharge him. good dealing therefore required, that he should have set down my words as I wrote them, and not thus falsely to forge odious matters, and so to refute them. is this the sincerity he professeth? is this the good dealing we are to expect at his hands? and doth he think to discharge himself, or win credit by this dealing? Praetor edixit, saith 19 Prator. ff. de iniuriis. Ulpian, qui agit iniuriarum, dicat quid iniuriae factum sit. quia qui famosam actionem intendit, non debet vagaricum discrimine alienae existimationis, sed designare & certum specialiter dicere, quam se iniuriam passum contendit. Why then doth not M. Cartwright specify the injury, and prove it by direct words, or witnesses? doth he not see, that even heathen men do abhor and condemn this unchristian and uncivil kind of dealing? Indeed I confess that I wrote first that M. Cartwright had intelligence of Copingers matters. and that M. Throkmorton gently confesseth, and Edm. Copingers' letters testify: secondly, that M. Cartwright had secret conference with Copinger. and that is partly testified by Copingers letters, and partly confessed by job Throk. and somehat by M. Cartwr. himself; albeit the same was done indirectly by interposed persons. thirdly, that he consented, as it seemeth, to Copingers devise for the violent deliverance of him, and certain his companions. and this Copinger 20 Vid. fol. 44. p. 2. writeth, and divers presumptions prove, which anon shallbe examined. but M. Cartwr. to make the charge more heinous, leaveth out the words, as it seemeth, and where I speak of consenting to one matter, he apply it to all Hackets treasons, where with I do not charge him. Nay, where M. Throk. saith that I would feign have M. Cartwr. M. Egerton, and M. Udall to be traitors and conspirators, I do plainly deny it, and disavow it. I would then have all men judge, what manner of dealing M. Cartwr. useth in this place, nay I would himself would consider it: and then if he have but common reason, he must needs be ashamed. four, I confess I wrote, that M. Cartwright did not dissuade Copinger, but rather willed him, that he should attempt nothing but by advise, and that he should be wise and circumspect. and that these words were of a divers letter from the rest of the book. but the reason was not to signify this to be M. Cartwrights', but Copingers letters: as M. Cartwright might have seen, if he had not been blind, and would have confessed, if he had not meant to quarrel, and by false juggling to take some little advantage. further I do not charge M. Cartwright. why then doth he charge me further? and this that I have said is most true. Why then doth he without cause cry out slanders, slanders? do I charge him so far as he saith? or do I not say truly in that I have reported of him? Yes verily. and I doubt not but the truth will appear by his own singlesoled answer to the foresaid supposed objections, that here followeth. ¶ M. 1 All this book being ignorantly and corruptly pointed, I have corrected, not meaning to take advantage of small matters. Cartwrights' answer. Hacket was a man whom to my knowledge I 2 Do I say you did? never saw. so was Arthington until he was freed of his 3 We Englishmen say, imprisonment. prison he endured for his 4 And hath his treachery no other more special name with you? misdemeanour. With Copinger I had acquaintance upon occasion of M. Ambrose Copinger, chief officer to the right honourable the Earl of Warwick. for coming to his house 5 Ergo not voluntarily. necessarily for the settling of the estate of the hospital of the 6 Are not you of those, that have men's persons in admiration for hope of advantage? right honourable the Earl of Leicester: there I met with this Copinger sundry times, some three or four years before this lewd practice broke forth With the former two I had never 7 I do not charge you with it. but with the third actor you had. conference either by letter, or otherwise by message sent from them to me, or from me to them. Between Copinger and me touching this matter I am charged with, this 8 M. Throk. and Copingers letters do speak further. only passed which followeth: While I was in 9 You will not deny, but it was for just causes. prison in the Fleet, M. Ralph Hockenhull propounded unto me, as things he desired to be resolved of in the behalf of one of his acquaintance, whether there were any Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists in these days. I answered, that those callings ceased many hundred years ago, and as no Apostles were ever hereafter to be looked for, so the other 10 If all were ceased, how happeneth it, that these are sometime expected? and why more than Apostles? two were not to be expected, unless God in the utter waist and desolation of the Church did extraordinarily raise them up for th'erection of a 11 Will you have God's Church laid sometime in dust, and new made as Adam was of clay? church out of the dust and that therefore there was no use of such men 12 But if the Church lie waste, as some of your consorts say it doth in England, than you confess these callings have place here. amongst us. To a second question, how & by what marks such a one, as thought himself one of these might in deed know, whether he were so or not; I answered, that this doubting of the matter, was an evident and an invincible argument that he was none. for that such as have a calling immediately from God, are not to 13 What is this, but to give the bridle to all fanatical spirits to range up and down without restraint? ask counsel of flesh and blood, as those that have the undoubted testimony of God's spirit unto their spirits, that they are called of him. Whereupon M. Hockenhull telling me, that it was Copinger which had entered into such conceit of himself, I 14 This and that which followeth would be proved. for Copingers and Throk. letters import the plain contrary. desired him to deal with him, for dissuading him from such frantic opinions; which he told me he did accordingly. And afterwards somewhile before his lewd practice broke forth, he admonished some of his kindred before Copinger himself, that if he belonged to him, he that day before the morrow would make him fast either in Bride well, or Bedlam. After some space of the demand of these questions, he sent by M. 15 Then did not M. Hockenhull take him for a Bedlam mate. Hockenhull to entreat, that he might come to me into the Fleet. for that if he might so do, he did not doubt, but he would show me such evident tokens of an extraordinary calling, as I should have no power to deny it, and that he would for further security in this matter, come waiting upon M. Hockenhul in a 16 This showed he had some bad practice in hand, wherewith he would not have M. Cartwright endangered. blue coat. To whom I returned this answer, that if he came to me, I would not once so much as speak with him, for that his disease was of that kind as needed some other remedy then disputation. And if he desired to be resolved of the truth in that matter, there were 17 He thought him not unworworthy to be conserted with, but would not now confer with him himself for fear of danger. other both for their learning and liberty more fit to deal with him, than I was. Not long after this the same M. 18 This also showeth him to be no Bedlam fool. Hockenhul told me, that because Copinger might not come unto me, he had written me a letter, which he had sent by him. To whom I said, I would receive none from him, and so returned his letter without 19 But will you deny that you heard it read, or knew the effect, or returned answer, all which Copingers letters testifies so much as once taking it into my hand, or looking upon the superscription. 20 Nothing less. Whereby may appear, how untrue it is, that I and Copinger had mutual conference by word & letters, to whom in my knowledge I 21 It is enough, if he wrote to you. never wrote in my life: assured I am, never since he entered into this wretched practice. After this I heard of M. Hockenhull, that Copinger would inform her Majesty of certain 22 Why did not M. Cartwright bewray this to some magistrate? horrible treasons committed by personages of high calling both in Church and common wealth. which as I always esteemed vain, knowing the broken wit of the man, so when by report I understood the 23 Then had he intelligence of matters as they passed. particulars thereof (which argued one 24 Tyndarus imputed also madness to one that might bewray him. Plaut. in captivis. and it is an ordinary practice so to do. berened of common sense) I desired 25 Why did he not tell M. Ambrose Copinger of this? forsooth he meant only to wipe his hands, and let the man run on. old M. Michael, that if Copinger came to the right honourable my very good Lady the Countess of Warwick for her mediation unto her excellent Majesty for such matters, as he would deliver, he would signify that although I knew her wisdom otherwise able easily without any writing to sound his folly, yet that it would please her to take this notice of me, which otherwise she might be ignorant of, that he was overtaken with strange conceits of some extraordinary calling, and gifts he was farthest from. Again, this whole matter of Hackets conspiracy being by commission to certain of her majesties most honourable counsel, and otherwise and grave men commended to be examined: I leave it to be considered whether M. D. Sutcliffe be so quick sighted as by himself and his 26 Inquisitors find out heretics, not conspirators. inquisitors, having (for any thing I can learn) but the 27 I had beside that job Throk. letter to a Lady. same grounds her majesties commissioners had, to find out that, which men of so great wisdom and circumspection with so great means as they had of commandment over all that might bring any light unto that matter, could not 28 Of favour they winked at lesser faults and of grace passed over M. Wigginton, M. Throkmorton, and M Cartwright. find out: and whether this dealing of his be not some charge of want in them 29 It was neither of these, but their favour, and the clemency of these times. either of wisdom in not finding it out, or of fidelity in not once calling me to th'answer of it. Moreover Arthington being compact in this conspiracy with Hacket and Copinger, if there were any 30 No man sayeth hand, but head. hand of mine in that wretched practice, in all likelihood Arthington must needs be 31 He as a simple man was an instrument, and no deviser. and therefore knew little. privy unto it. he is a man alive, let him be examined, & a man also whom I 32 What need this to be repeared that is not to purpose? never spoke too, nor caused to be spoken with in my life. His 33 I do neither accuse him, nor reason in this sort. reasons to induce his Reader to think his accusations to be true, are (so 34 Do you confute & remember not what? ö brave S. Innocent! far as I remember) these: the first is touching our mutual conference by letters, which is 35 Not never can be. for that he had intelligence of Copingers matters by letters & otherwise, which is all I said, he confesseth. already answered. Another, my concurrence with Copinger in fasting. I confess that as there was just cause for humbling myself in fasting, in feeling the displeasure of her excellent Majesty, and others in great authority under her, so did I sometimes 36 M. thinks, if he had much bestowed himself therein, he should have been more spent, and less fat. bestow myself in that exercise. but that I did it the same day that Copinger and his complices, or at the least with any notice either given to him of my fasting, or recetued from him of his fasting, I 37 And Copinger confidently affirmeth it, who is rather to be believed in this case, being a man not partial against M. Cartwright. utterly deny, as a thing most untrue. A third reason is, that Hacket and his fellows commended me at the cross in Cheap above the writers of our age. I acknowledge their great folly in that commendation, or madness rather, whom am 38 That is true. but the question is not, what is true, but what the traitors spoke and thought. scarce worthy to bear the books after many that have lived and yet do live in this age, yea and 39 I have not seen the like humility in this man, for this therefore, transeat. in this Church of our land. But M. D. Sutcliffes' report herein is not upright, for although I was not present, yet I heard of divers, that were standers by, that their excessive praise 40 A notorious untruth refuted by all Copingers letters of M. Carwr. and by the standers by, and by witnesses examined, and on record. was of Thomas Cartwright, that had been sometimes, when he 41 The Barowists and others say, he is in deed much changed. first wrote in the cause of the discipline of the Church, but not of him as he now was, for that, as was said, he was fallen away from his former love. Lastly, that M. Cartwright saith he was a meddler in those matters, and well understood them, it appeareth by a letter of I. Bowmans' a servant in Oundle to Wigginton: I desire (saith he) to send me the copy of a writing which you had from M. Cartwright upon the court matters, when goodman Hacket was with you the first time. M. Wigginton I am assured never received from me any 42 Ask john Bowman. writing during the time of my imprisonment, or afterwards, or at any time of my life to my best remembrance; whereof let M. Wigginton that liveth be examined. But if he had received a writing of the 43 M. Cartwright cannot salve his credit, unless he put the court into the star-chamber. o wretched excuse! court matters in the star-chamber, how thereof can it be concluded, that I was a meddler in this matter, let all men judge. for my part I 44 You will not understand it. but if you meddled not, why had Wigginton those intelligences from you, but to disperse them, and to make your faction ready? understand no sequel of it. Upon all which both witnesses, and reasons, I leave it to be judged, how untrue it is, that M. D. Sutcliffe doth charge me with, 45 He doth most perversely allege my words, and mar my meaning. touching the matter of Hacket, and Copinger, etc. both in words, writing, and consent, which 46 A ridiculous defence. never spoke with them of it in my life, never wrote unto them, nor received writing or message from them, further than 47 job Throkmorton saith more than this. I myself have confessed. Whereof let it also be further judged, whether I was consenting to that 48 To some part you were, as Copingers & Throkmortons' letters signify, and yourself confess here. wretched practice. Matth. Sutcliffe. Thus you have heard M. Cartwrights' long answer to a short matter. or rather an answer abounding with words, & devoid of all good matter, and (to say as you shall find it by examination) so unsufficient and disjointed, as that I doubt not, but if my words were rightly set down, and not either cut shorter, or made longer as a certain tyrant did his unwelcome guests, his own answer would clear me both of slander, and injury. The first exception therefore that I may justly take to his answer, is this, that he omitteth, & dare not set down the words of my books, wherein he taketh himself to be charged. the second is, that he answereth not to these matters, wherewith he saith he is charged. the third is, that he forgeth matters never meant nor intended by me. the last is, that he misplaceth my words, and perverteth my meaning, and yet answereth nothing sufficient to clear himself. The first is proved by the words that follow: In my answer to the petition of the disciplinarians I demanded this question, Pag. 197. Whether M. Cartwright and some of his fellows and followers, had not intelligence of Hackets and Copingers practices, and whether they understood not, that Copinger and his fellows or some of them pretended not to have an extraordinary calling, which moved them to attempt matters which might prove very dangerous to themselves; and whether also they knew not, that the actions which they purposed to attempt by virtue of their calling did tend to their deliverance out of prison, and to the advancing of the holy cause, as they termed it; and did not thereupon hold a fast, and pray, that God would give success to such means, as should be attempted for their deliverance, and for the setting up of their discipline: and whether M. Cartwright and the rest did not well understand, to what end extraordinary callings did tend; and lastly, whether these points being to be proved against them, they have not been mercifully dealt withal, that have not therefore been called in question. I did ask further if M.G. Wiggington did not confirm Coping, in his purposes, and was not well acquainted with his bad practices. I did likewise demand if M.P. Wentw. did not in a letter written to Ed. Copinger pray God to direct him, and did not by josuahs' words encourage him. and whether M. job Throk. did not write a letter to the same man to advise him: and whether M. Cartwr. M. Egerton, M. Charke, and Udall did not receive letters from Copinger concerning his intended practice, and M. Egerton write to him again. of all which this may be collected, that M. Cartwright either by himself or his friends, knew all this practice. In my answer to job Throk. I said, Fol. 10. p. 2. that M. Cartwright did never so resolutely answer Copinger, but that he still hoped to have his allowance, and that Copinger dealt with him, not so much concerning revelations, Pag. 44. as extraordinary callings. And in another place I say, that great mercy hath been extended to M. Cartwright, having run such a course against laws, and being so deeply engaged in Copingers' cause; that he is not further called to answer. all which M. Cartwright hath passed by for the most part, and buried in silence. That M. Cartwright hath not satisfied so much as concerneth these points of Hackets practices, is evident by his answer. for he hath not answered any of these particulars: which he must do before he be cleared. That he forgeth matters, it is proved evident by that which is said already. for he saith, that I charge him with conspiring with Hacket, and communication with Copinger: which is untrue. The last point is also proved by comparing my words with his answer. for where I say M. Cartw. was 1 The answ. to I. Throk. letter f. 44. p. 2. engaged in Hackets and Copingers cause conferring both by word and writing, and consenting (as it seemeth) to his devise for the deliverance of himself and other his companions then in prison: he leaveth out the words, as it seemeth, and addeth this word, communication: and where I say, he seemed to consent to his devise concerning the deliverance of the prisoners, he would have it, that I simply charge him with consenting to all his conspiracy. such manifest force must he offer to my words, before he could make any show of answer. yea, & when he hath done all this, what doth he answer that may satisfy either his friends or enemies concerning these matters? I said in effect he had intelligence of Hackets and Copingers practices, and liked them as far as they pretended the advancement of his consistorian discipline, albeit I will not say, he knew the particulars of the course they meant to hold. And that this is true, is proved, first by Copingers' words, who had no reason to speak untruth: then by M. Throkmorton his dear brother's letters, lastly by M. Cartwrights' own confession. From you, saith 1 In his letter to M. Cartwr. dated 24. of Febr. Copinger to his reverend friend M. Cartwright, I received this message, that I should attempt nothing, but by advise of those, which you would procure to counsellme. Afterward he desireth, that monday being appointed by M. Cartwright for conference might hold, M. Throkmorton 2 In his letter to a certain Lady. saith, that having recovered himself, he signified to M. Cartwright in the Fleet what had passed betwixt M. Copinger, and himself. How then could he be ignorant of matters, having such a good intelligencer as M. Throkmorton, who knew whatsoever passed? M. Cartwright in this answer confesseth how M. Hockenhul carried divers messages betwixt himself and Copinger, and one letter also of Copingers to him. Likewise that he knew how Copinger meant to discover certain horrible treasons (as he pretended) to her Majesty, and what the particulars thereof were. which argueth, that M. Copinger would conceal nothing from his loving and reverend friend (as he calleth him) M. Cartwright. To all this what answereth M. Cartwright? he saith, first that henever saw Hacket to his knowledge, nor yet Arthington until after his imprisonment. But what then? have not many entertained practices of treason, and rebellion with the Pope, and Spanish king, that never saw their persons? it sufficeth that they have received letters, messages, or means from them. the which course M. Cartwright held in his business likewise. for albeit he knew not Hacket nor Arthington, yet he confesseth he was acquainted with Copinger, and received messages from him by M. Hockenhull. The parts therefore of this answer are like the of spring of Cadmus, which killed one another. Besides the confession, it must be remembered, that job. Throkmorton brought intelligences from Copinger to M. Cartwright. Lastly M. Copinger doth write very familiarly to M. Cartwright, and saith in effect, that although he might not come to him without danger to both, yet desired to be approved of him, promising to declare to him, or such as he should appoint, both generalities and particularities, so far as he desired to look into them. For before that, he wrote, that he had entered into a course that was likely to bring danger to himself. If then M. Cartwr. refused to confer with Copinger, or to receive letters from him, it was only for fear of approaching too near to danger. Secondly, he allegeth for himself, that albeit he was in deed acquainted with Edmund Copinger, and had assoiled the said Edmund two questions propounded to him by M. Hockenhull, and had received a message from him first, and afterward seen a letter of Copingers written unto him: yet he answered the questions little to Copingers' fatisfaction; and that he would neither receive his message, nor read his letters; And further, that he dissuaded Edm. Copinger from his frantic conceits by M. Hockenhull, and gave notice to the countess of Warwick, that M. Copinger whereas he meant to discover certain treasons to her majesty, was not to be regarded, as a man overtaken with strange conceits of an extraordinary calling. But all this is either unlikely, or else maketh nothing for M. Cartwrights' clearing. for albeit he might make show by M. Hockenhull to dissuade Copinger from his course, & seemed to reject his conference, and his letters: yet in truth his meaning was only to keep himself from danger, and not to break of Copingers pretended enterprise. for that doth Copinger plainly affirm, and reason confirm. For first M. Cartwrights' answer concerning extraordinary callings not so ceased, but that in the waist of the Church they might have place, did stir up him to think, that discipline which M. Cartwright compareth to a wall and hedge being wanting, this church admitteth such callings. yea, and Copinger himself 1 In a letter to M. Charke. saith, that it cannot be denied but the waste of the church is great, and that there was place for extraordinary men. Secondly, if M. Cartwright meant to have dealt peremptorily: he might easily have cut Copinger short by publishing his follies, and giving warning to all his followers to avoid him, but to do that was not for his profit. Lastly, albeit he gave some notice to the countess of Warwick of the man's weakness; yet was it not such as stopped his course, which he might have done, if he would have told all. That these things which M. Cartw. telleth us, are unlikely, it partly appeareth by Copingers letters, who rested satisfied with M. Cartwrights' messages; which otherwise he would not have done: and partly by the dealing of Throkmorton, and P. Went. M. Egert. and others, who still dealt with Copinger, with whom if M. Cartwr. had refused to deal, they would have shunned him as a serpent. Further the same is proved by M. Hockenhuls' intercourse, who would not have come so often from him with letters and message, if he had been a man frantic, or light headed, and cast off by M. Cartwright. Again, the same is confirmed by M. Cartwrights' own words, and confession. for if he had thought him unworthy to be talked with, he would not so often have heard of him, nor sent him over to be conferred with all by others. Lastly, that Copinger was neither frantic, nor so accounted of, appeareth by his well written letters, by his questions, by his sober behaviour, by his cunning practices, and lastly, by the opinion of 1 He calleth Edm. Copinger his dear brother. job Throk. and P.W. that wrote to him as a man of some note among that sect. neither seemeth he to have other folly, than the common folly of puritans, who being otherwise not unwise, yet hold frantic & foolish opinions. Thirdly he saith, that if he had been guilty and not detected of these matters, that either the commissioners in that cause had not used diligence or faithful dealing therein. which is a very dishonourable surmise against men of such honour, and no way concludeth for M. Cartwr. purpose. for we may not think, but that they saw both Wiggingtons' and M. Cartwrights', and others dealing, and were notwithstanding content with the punishment of the chief heads of that conspiracy. Besides that, time that bringeth matters to knowledge, hath declared things that then lay hid, and job Throkmorton and M. Cartwright themselves have told tales. His last argument to prove his innocency, is this, that Arthington cannot accuse him of these matters. which is rather a ridiculous conceit, than a sound argument. for those that manage any such wicked plot, do not make all their partakers acquainted with all their secrets. Neither doth he avoid such matters as may be alleged to justify so much, as I said against him. nay, he doth not only mistake my objection, but the reasons also. He saith, that the first reason of my accusations was drawn from his conference. yet I do not accuse M. Cartwr. nor do I object that which he pretendeth, nor do I reason as he saith. yet if to prove that M. Cartwr. had intelligence of Copingers matters I said, there did letters and messages pass betwixt them, it is no bad reason, nor is it answered. Neither do I say, because they salted together, that M. Cart. was guilty of Copingers practices. yet if they fasted and prayed together that God would give good success to the matters then intended, it is not likely but M. Cartwright understood what was intended; for who doth pray for such things, as he knoweth not? Thirdly, I should reason ridiculously to say, that every one whom the traitors named and praised, were privy to their treasons. I would therefore wish that M. Cartwr. would show, where I do thus reason, as he doth charge me. yet if I should say, that M. Cart. did so demean and carry himself, hat these traitors supposed they had great interest in him, and therefore praised him so highly; I think I should not say amiss. Further methinks it is some fault to give occasion, as he hath done to the Baroists, and these Hacketians thus furiously to oppugn the church. Therefore doth S. Augustine 1 De eivit. Dei, lib. 20. & 21. say, that the last judgement is deferred, that heretics and schismatics that hurt after their death by their actions, writings, and examples, may receive punishment according to their demerits. But saith M. Cartwr. their praise was excessive, and I am not worthy to bear the books after many that live in this age, yea, and in this church of our land. A goodly matter, and worthy to be noted! as if any did either charge him, or suppose him to be so admirably well learned; or as if that were the question here, and not rather; what mad conceit these mad fellows had of him. He saith therefore further, that they commended him as he was first, and not as he was now: A matter that I never heard before this, nor can believe. for Copinger did still speak of him with reverence: and all that ever heard the words as far as I can learn, say as I have reported. But whether it be so, or no; sufficient it is, that these traitors had such a great conceit of his writings which he doth avow; and many do very well like, and these traitors commended as setting forth the grounds of those things, for which they did strive, and in tumultuous sort seek to win them. My report therefore is very right, and M. Cartwright by his favour is foully either mistaken, or in his own gins taken. Lastly, saith he, M. Sutcliffe concludeth, that I was a meddler in these matters, upon advantage of certain words of a letter of one john Bowman of Oundle. true. but neither doth this conclusion amount so far, as M. Cartwright would force it, (for I do not there conclude, that he consented to Copinger, as he doth affirm) nor can he deny, but that my reason is good to show him to be a busy meddler in these causes. therefore doth he answer first, that he never wrote to M. Wiggington in his life to his remembrance. as if many things of his come not from him by his servants and friends, which he never wrote, and as if it were not his practice to deal all by third persons, as appeareth in this matter of his with Copinger. He answerreth therefore further, that it might be some writing of the Court matters in the star-chamber. as if M. Cartwright or any else were so simple, that he could not distinguish the Court from the Star chamber. Now that this writing should come to Wiggintons' hands, and at such time as Hacket was with him, it is a plain presumption, that M. Cartwright had some interest in Wigginton and Hacket, and these two in him: unless he would have us surmise, that all happened by chance without any purpose of his, and that the Court matters Bowman speaketh of were rather concerning the civil state than their disciplinarian causes. Wherefore if we consider Copingers letters to M. Cartwright, that do plainly argue the approbation of his purpose, though percase not the particular means for fear of himself; and also M. Cartwrights' answer of extraordinary callings not ceased now, especially in the ruins of the Church, which Copinger took as granted; and the messages sent to and fro by M. Hockenhull 1 Confessed by M. Cartwright. betwixt M. Carwright and Copinger; and how that M. Cartwrights' 2 Proved by their letters & Copingers' examination. friends, viz. M. P.W. M. Egerton, M. Udall, M. Charke, and a certain lawyer, who in these causes kept nothing back from him, knew of the dangerous course that Copinger had entered into, and how that M. Cartwright had 3 That Cartwr. confesseth, & M. Egerton did the like. put him over to be conferred withal by others of his friends, and how he himself had 4 That doth Copinger affirm. once appointed him a time to confer with him which for fear of danger he durst not hold; and how 5 M. Throk. letters to a lady. M. Throk. acquainted him with all matters, that had passed betwixt Copinger and him, and how 6 That appeareth by Copingers letters. M. Cartwright and others of his friends did fast and pray about those matters, that were then intended by Copinger, and how that 7 That M. Cartwright confesseth. he heard the particulars of the treasons, that Copinger meant to utter, and understood of his familiarity with Hacket by M. 8 See M. Throk. letter. Throkmorton; and how 9 john Bowman doth testify so much in a letter to Wigginton. intelligences did fly from him as from a head into the country abroad, and so came to Wigginton and Hacket. How can any indifferent man think, but that M. Cartwright had notice and intelligence of Copingers matters, so far as himself desired? and who doubteth of his consent, when he communicated these matters to no magistrate, nor others, but such as he supposed would be assistants, and aiders to the building of his babylonical eldership, which by confusion of tongues we see is now come to nothing? that therefore which I do say, is most true; as standing upon confession, witnesses and records: and that which he answereth is most weak and simple, as standing only upon his bare and simple denial, which he is bound to make. that cannot be answered, this is refuted with divers letters, witnesses, and good arguments. sure if innocency should plead in this simple sort, all the standers by would take her for counterfeit, and the judges condemn her as guilty. but this is only the ridiculous conceit of the Prefator. M. Cartwright when he hath read this treatise (I think) will not stand upon any such high points, especially when he seethe no point of his answer left sound, and unshaken. M. Cartwrights' answer concerning the report of his miracles. Being (as I feel myself) short of the ordinary works of my 1 I pray you what is your calling? calling, both in 2 Did never any work miracles but men perfect in all duties? general duties of Christianity, and in the particular way of the government of mine own family: woe should be unto me, if I should vainly boast of miraculous works, which myself have especially written against, in 4 But he condemneth not extraordinary callings: therefore not miracles. condemning extraordinary callings, whereof miracles are the seals. yet M. D. Sutcliffe seemeth to 5 A false collection, and leuder reason. I neither insinuate; nor albeit other esteem them, doth it pertain to M. Cartwright. insinuate thus much (I say insinuate) for that the brethren he brandeth to have them in estimation (I doubt not) he meaneth to be men so favouring me, as they would be loath to do it, if they thought it would not stand with my good liking. Now let the town wherein I dwell be examined, whether any voice tending hereunto did ever come 6 If not from you, yet from your followers, which is all I said. from me. and as I think none can be produced, that will glory in this folly; so my desire is, that when this legend shall come forth, 7 All this stir M. Cartwright maketh against his followers, that are the men only I know speak of his miracles. there may be for the credit of him that setteth it out, the names of the reporters, and likewise of the brethren laid down that are guilty of the dotage he speaketh of; that thereby they may be cleared, or otherwise 8 He should rather clear himself, then talk of condemning others. pass condemnation of the folly he chargeth them with. Matth. Sutcliffe. In this answer M. Cartwr. doth me some wrong, but himself & his cause much more. for he chargeth me, as if I should say, he wrought miracles, or promise to set out his miracles, which in truth I do not. 1 M. Cartwright hath a great facility in imposing of matters falsely, and confuting that which no man holdeth, easily. nay I do not so much as say that his legend is promised to come forth, as he untruly writeth; but that it shall appear whether he liked of revelations or not, when the legend of his miracle; shall come forth. he doth himself wrong when he thinketh himself slandered, when no man speaketh of him, nor doth so much as mention any matter criminal. for I think it not such a heinous matter for a man to think that God doth work some things by him miraculously. Let all men judge what a brave brief of slanders we have here, when this is received as one of the capital slanders concerning breach of necessary duties imposed upon all Christians. what more vain and ridiculous dealing can be imagined? the which shall better appear by answer to his own words. Woe, saith he, should be to me if I should vainly boast of miraculous works. as if any man did charge him with this matter. as for myself, I do not so much as insinuate any such like thing. nay I do rather laugh at his followers great folly, that do admire such a troublestate, as a saint, and imagine, and give out, that he worketh miracles, when himself doth deny it. but percase albeit he doth not vainly boast; yet it may be he boasteth not vainly. Why then doth he say, Woe to himself? forsooth, because, as he saith, he is short of his duties both in general and particular, and also hath condemned extraordinary callings. yet this second is false: for God, 2 In the answer to the objection concerning Copingers matters. said he before, doth extraordinarily raise them up in the desolation of the Church. the first is not concludent. for God hath wrought miracles by divers, that have come short of their duties. Yet he saith, I do insinuate that he boasteth of miracles. and why? because he saith the brethren would not else like of them. a worthy reason! for if M. Cartwright did boast of all things which his fanciful followers do like of, he should boast of more vanities and fooleries, than he hath hairs of his head. further, he would have the town examined, wherein he dwelleth, whether any voice did ever come from him by way of boasting of his miracles. as if it were not annoyance enough to examine his vain answers, but we must examine all his fantastical disciples, yea and others to. or as if his followers might not give out, that he is an holy man, and worketh miracles, and yet he not able to work other miracle, then as jugglers do, that make all that behold them wonder, when they do nothing but play a little legerdemain. Yet because he will needs have me examine the matter, I have been content to do him this favour: and do find that in deed, albeit I have not hitherto said so much, yet he hath not only boasted, but also most vainly boasted of his miracles, if we may believe his hearers, for they say that one 1 Testified by divers honest men in Warwick. chaplain of Warwick being taken sick in the hall of the hospital, where M. Cartwright contrary to laws of hospitality had reveled at him, and threatened God's judgement against him for his supposed drunkenness; he not long after the man's death going up into the pulpit, and taking the history of Ananias and Saphira Act. 5. for his text, did there say, that chaplain was stricken, as was Ananias and Saphira. which is nothing else but to compare himself to Peter, and to make the death of chaplain no less miraculous, than the death of Ananias and Saphira. Only this seemed to be all the difference, that Peter did not rashly judge of Ananias and Saphiraes' death, nor declare them unworthy of burial, whereas M. Cartwright did, as chaplains well willers complain, thunder out his detestations against chaplain being dead, and said he was unworthy of christian burial. such is the man's christian modesty and discretion. In the end, to make all sure, he desireth that when the legend of his miracles shall come forth, there may be for the credit of him that setteth it forth, the names of the reporters, & likewise of the brethren laid down, that are guilty of this dotage. Wherein I cannot but wonder what he hath to do, to accuse others of dotage, especially his own dear friends, having nothing to answer for himself. He doth not say, whether about Warwick he hath not heard reports of his miracles: nor doth he tell us, that he hath condemned such reports, or denied that he can work miracles. but would have those condemned of dotage, that mean to set forth the legend of them. yet neither have I said that he worketh miracles, nor can I believe any such matter. This is in deed his own folly, that ridiculously gloried as they say, in the death of chaplain; and of his followers, that believe that in truth he can work miracles. for that is the speech of his credulous disciples about Warwick: and I myself have heard those that stoutly have maintained so much to my face. and that first for the strange death of chaplain. Secondly, for that one 1 These matters of Browne and Harris will be testified: and I think himself will not deny that there is such a report. Browne died, after that M. Cartwr. had denounced God's judgements against him for denying that he had begot his maid with child: and yet his wife and others say, the poor man was impotent & unable to do it. Thirdly, for that one Harris being threatened with God's wrath by M. Cartwr. not long after languished and died. But the man was a weak fellow, and being for displeasure and because he was no friend to M. Cartwrights' discipline, by one Dulhams means pressed forth for a soldier, died for fear and grief, as they say: where note by the way that all the report of M. Cartwr. miracles consisteth in the discouraging, & killing of poor christians. therefore doth he well to deny, that he doth work miracles. for this is nothing but miraculous malice, which they report of him: and I am much to thank him, that taketh my part against those, that do make him a saint, & a great worker of miracles, and that denieth all the legend that goeth through the hands of simple people which by his feigned holiness, and strange grimaces, and pretenced gestures, have been deceived. But did he work miracles, or not; how unadvisedly hath he in this place made such outcries of slander upon my words? where is the slander? and how is it proved? is it not a miracle that M. Cartwr. should thus foully be mistaken? let him therefore hear what the law faith; He that bringeth his action of injurious or slanderous speeches, 2 l. praetor ff. deiniurijs. saith the Roman praetor, must name the wrong, and signify his proceeding directly. if not the party accused goeth quit, and the accuser is to be condemned of calumniation. which is right the case of M. Cartwright. for he saith, he is slandered. yet can not say wherein, nor deny that which I have said, nor well gainsay the common report. let him therefore have the sentence of the law. ¶ M. Cartwrights' answer to these words: being examined in the Star chamber upon certain points of her majesties supremacy, he refused to answer, & pleaded, that he was not bound. I refused it, as esteeming it 1 Do the lords propound matters impertinent? and is it impertinent to declare himself a loyal subject? impertinent to that cause, not otherwise. unto which afterward, upon commandment I gave answer in writing unto her majesties most honourable council. and to her majesties 2 But not to the particular points of it. supremacy I have been sworn at the least five or six times. and if there be doubt of any change of my judgement, I am ready to take the 3 You take the oath, but interpret the law contrary to the meaning. oath again. Matth. Sutcliffe. Behold I beseech you a heinous slander, for which not only M. Cartwr. but the whole consociation of Puritans is grievously scandalised. I said, that M. Cartwright refused to answer directly being examined in the star-chamber. Well, what saith M. Cartwright? doth not he confess as much, as I said? he cannot deny it. His words are plain. I refused it, saith he. but if he had not confessed it, yet would the record in the star-chamber have convinced him. Now then, when himself confesseth, and the record testifieth as much as I say, how happeneth it, that his own words are so clear, and mine reputed scandalous? or why should not he aswell be thought to slander himself, as I, seeing he confesseth that very matter, which I do object? But, saith he, I refused it, as impertinent. as if that were material for what cause he refused it, the question being only whether he refused it, or no. But to take away all excuse, it shallbe proved, that it was very pertinent, for first, what more pertinent to convince him of notorious disloyalty, then to show that he had a bad conceit of divers points of her majesties supreme authority? Beside that, judge (I pray you) whether every one is not bound to yield an answer to his superiors in all matters that touch his allegiance. Last of all, it cannot be surmised, that so honourable and wise Lords and judges would require answer to matters impertinent; neither if it were impertinent, had M. Cartwright reason afterward to answer it, as he did. Therefore to make his matter most clear, he saith, he hath been sworn five or six times to her majesties supremacy, and is 1 So Feckenan abbot of Westminster to Bishop Horn, said, he was ready to swear. again ready to take the oath, if any doubt be made of his judgement therein. As if there were any question of other matter, then whether he once refused to answer concerning matters of her majesties supremacy, or no. Beside that, divers Papists have been often sworn, that now are of a contrary opinion: yea and some of them pretend readiness to take the oath, yea and take it, but with those qualifications, and interpretations, that do sufficiently testify their bad minds. According to the meaning of the statute I think he will not take the oath. for than he should declare, that the Queen hath power to establish and disannul Ecclesiastical laws, to appoint Ecclesiastical judges, officers and commissioners, to hear appeals or to appoint delegates to hear them when they are made from Ecclesiastical courts, to nominate Bishops, to receive first fruits and tenths of Ecclesiastical livings, and such like rights & privileges, as the statutes of this land give her. but that he may not, nor (I think) will not do, for that the laws of their discipline deny it. if so be he would, I confess, he should satisfy me in this point: but he should utterly ruinated the foundation of his aldermen's consistorial jurisdiction, to whom they give most of these things. Yea & I doubt, whether others would be satisfied. for as in religion it is a note of an heretical disposition, to doubt of the grounds of our faith; so in policy it is a note of a disloyal person, to doubt of the princes lawful authority, which the statutes give her. In which case seeing you were once, albeit now you utterly deny it; I pray you let us not have you too much boast of your innocency, and that in such long Prefaces, as that before your short brief: especially seeing heretofore you have written and done many things to the prejudice of her supremacy in Ecclesiastical causes. In the book of your holy discipline, wherein you hold, that a perfect form of Church government, such as is prescribed in God's word, is contained, you have utterly excluded the prince's authority, and debarred him from all government. for you have not so much as mentioned him. In one of the disciplinarian books of common prayer, 1 This book they sought to have confirmed by act of Parliament. and administration of Sacraments you leave out the Christian magistrate, in another there is some mention made of him, but it is in the end of the book, and after all the officers of the Church described. Thirdly in direct terms you say, that the Christian magistrate can no more be an officer of the Church, 2 2. reply. p. 420. than the pastors can be magistrates. how then can he be supreme governor of the Church, that is no governor at all, 3 2. repl. 2. parl. p. 147. as you say? You hold also, that a Christian magistrate hath no more authority in the Church, than a heathen prince. which is sufficient to exclude him out of the Church government. Finally you do subject him to the excommunication of your elderships, and place the magistrate among those that are to obey, and the elders among commanders. Fourthly you will not deny, but that the Papists deny her majesties supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical. how then can it be said, that you hold a good opinion of it, when you in your books do give her no more authority than they, and abridge the same as far as they do? 4 2. repl. p. 48. Do you not deny, that the prince ought to be called the head of particular and visible Churches within his dominions? Do you not likewise 5 Ibidem p. 157. & 167. take from him authority to determine of Church causes, and 6 1. reply p. 192. power to ordain laws and ceremonies? It cannot be denied, your words are plain. all which you borrow from the Papists. They subject the prince to the Pope, you to your elderships, neither can you show any other difference betwixt yourselves, and them. For where you say first, that you do not exempt your ministers from the punishment of the civil magistrate, as the Papists do their Priests, you err in both. for both would you claim immunity for your ministers, and they do not simply exempt their priests, but in certain cases. The authors of the 7 Admonition 2. p. 65. admonition would have themselves and their companions by act of Parliament exempted from the authority of justices, and from their enditings and finings. In your 8 Lib. 2. reply, you would have the authority of the civil magistrate to descend from Christ, as God, and not as mediator; whereof it followeth, that Christian princes have no rule over their subjects as Christians, but only as men; 1 De visib. monarch. lib. 2. c. 3. as Saunders also holdeth. all of you deny, that any appeal is to be admitted from the determination of the synod to the prince. How then are not the synods exempt from prince's jurisdiction, when the prince hath no authority over them? yea and in Suffolk certain of this sect in a supplication to the Lords of her majesties counsel affirm, that it was a hard course, and tending to the discredit of the ministry, that their ministers should be presented before the judges and indited, arraigned and condemned. Contrariwise 2 Against the apology of the Church. p. 306. Harding saith, that good Kings may put Bishops and priests in mind of their duties, and bridle both their riot and arrogancy. And in 3 Ibidem p. 303. another place, that a prince may make laws for the observation of both tables, and punish the transgressors. Feckenam 4 To bishop Horn. offereth to swear, that her Majesty hath under God the sovereignty and rule over all persons within her dominions, whether they be Ecclesiastical or temporal. Fatemur personas Episcoporum qui in toto orb fuerunt, saith 5 De visib. monarch. lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders, Romano Imperatori esse subiectos. And for civil causes, it is their common opinion, that 6 Harding rejoind. f. 379. priests may be convented before civil judges. and for Ecclesiastical causes certain 7 Act. of Parliament anno 1584. acts. 2. ministers of Scotland refused to answer before the king. Secondly you say, that the Papists will have the prince to execute whatsoever they conclude, be it good or bad; which you will not. For you grant the prince authority to set order where there is no lawful ministry, and to stay unlawful decrees of lawful ministers. As if the 8 Hard. confus. apol. p. 304. & 317. Papists did not grant as much: or as if Papists held, that the princes were to execute wicked decrees. Again it is evident that you would have all men to stand to the 9 Admonit. determination of your synods. And albeit your synods do decree bad things, yet you will not give princes authority to judge them. How then can they stay them? will you give them extraordinary authority? that is your meaning. But how shall we know when they work by ordinary, when by extraordinary authority? Beside that, you deny this extraordinary authority as long, as there is a lawful ministry. And albeit your doings be unlawful, yet you will not be stayed by the prince. Thirdly you 10 2. p. 164. affirm, that you do not utterly seclude the prince from your Churchassemblies. for oftentimes a simple man and (as the proverb saith) a gardener hath spoken to purpose. So you count the prince as a simple fellow, and as a poor gardener among the magnificoes in your elderships. You say, he may have a voice, call a counsel, and appoint times to meet, but he 1 2. lib. 2. p. 157. & 156. may neither judge nor make orders, but aught to confirm and execute the decrees of the counsels. And do not the Papists the like? It is most apparent both in our own countrymen's writings as in 2 Devisib. monar. lib. 2. c. 3. and 3 Confut. ap. p. 304. Harding and in 4 Bellar. de magistr. others also. If then the Papists; sure you have no good conceit of her majesties supremacy. And this 5 In a certain epistle concerning M. Cartur. reply. M. Whitaker and others have noted before me, lest you imagine me to be the author of this charge. Fiftly being demanded by me, whether the disciplinarians, whose leader and as it were oracle you are, do not in effect deny the principal points of her majesties supremacy, and take from her power to ordain rites and orders for the Church, and right to nominate Bishops, and to appoint Ecclesiastical commissioners, and to delegate learned men to hear the last appeal from Ecclesiastical courts, likewise authority to call and govern synods, and other prerogatives and rights given to the prince by the statutes and laws of England: and finally whether you do not endeavour to bring in foreign laws & jurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacy, and her majesties prerogative: you answer nothing. Which is nothing else, but a plain confession, that you dare not directly, and in plain terms declare your opinion concerning the foresaid matters; and do indeed abridge her Majesty of a great part of her royal authority. Lastly when you were called upon your oath in the star-chamber to answer to divers points of her supremacy, you show yourself to have a perverse opinion, and therefore dare not answer directly. Being 6 Interrog. 3. demanded whether you have not taught or allowed, that the prince being neither pastor, nor elder, is to be accounted among the governors of the Church, or among those that are to be governed: and also whether in a well ordered Church he may ordain orders and ceremonies therein: do you not say for all answer, that you are not bound to answer? and do you not persist therein? Now how can it be supposed, that you allow the prince to be supreme governor, that will not acknowledge him to be any governor of the Church at all? or how can it be said you allow the points of her majesties supremacy, that will not confess she hath power to make orders or to ordain ceremonies for the Church? True it is, that you offer to swear to the supremacy: so likewise doth Fecknam. I do here presently (saith 1 Fecknam to Bishop Horn. Fecknam) offer myself to receive a corporal oath upon the Evangelists, that I do verily think and am persuaded in my conscience, that the Queen's highness is the only supreme governor of this Realm, and of all other her majesties dominions, etc. and that she hath under God the sovereignty and rule over all manner persons Ecclesiastical and temporal. And yet he doth not believe the several points of her majesties authority, nor acknowledge them. So likewise it may be, you will acknowledge her majesties authority in general terms, and yet will not acknowledge the several points of her authority. You do also offer to swear to the supremacy, but you have a perverse interpretation, by which you overthrow all the chief points of it in effect. Your pretence is the interpretation of the injunction. which kind of bad dealing, and meaning you detected sufficiently in your answer to the 2. interrogatory in the star-chamber. For being demanded how far forth you have affirmed or allowed the Queen's authority Ecclesiastical to berestreined by the injunctions, you say, you are not bound to answer. By which it appeareth, that you think the injunctions restrain her authority, and that so far, as you dare not tell us what you think. Wherefore if in deed your opinion be sound concerning her majesties supremacy, answer these matters directly, and tell us what she may do, & what she may not do by the laws of your discipline: and whether you mean to hold your former opinions, or renounce them. For whatsoever you swear; your books, and the Queen's authority given her by the laws of this land, cannot stand together. M. Cartwright, answer being charged to have highly commended M. Fenners book, which 1 Fenneri Theolog. Sac. lib. 5. p. 187. giveth authority to inferior persons to restrain their sovereign, as did the ephori in Sparta. I 2 You utterly mistake it. take it, M. Fenner giveth no such authority, but only where the laws of the land do establish such an authority, as the ephori in 3 The ephori were of Sparta, the city, not Lacedemonia the country. Lacedemonia had. and if M. Fenner did, yet how doth my epistle commendatory set before his book 4 Because you allow it, and commend it, and set it out. make me of his judgement? as if he that commendeth a book justifieth whatsoever is in the book, or as if notwithstanding M. Fenners 5 And more presumption, made notorious by his extravagant divinity. singular learning (which for his age many, I doubt not, both at home and abroad do esteem) you allow it, and disallow it to? or can you deny that you commended his rules, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 coelestis I 6 CanCanaan? might not, or do not differ from him in some things contained in his book. beside, he himself confessing, that by oath in the star-chamber I have disavowed the allowance of any such opinion, which he fathereth of M. Fenner, let it be considered with 7 With a good mind to show your contradictions, and how hardly you are drawn to obedience. what mind he so often rubbeth upon this point. and both for this and the former charge, I leave it to be considered with what 8 What civil honesty have you to charge me with slandering you, or urge me to move these matters? Christian modesty M. Sutcliffe may now the 9 If you quiet not yourselves you must hear it the fourth & fifth time. second and the third time move question (and that in print) of those things to our discredit, which her majesties most honourable council was pleased, should be 10 In law we convent you not, in writing we may discourse upon these things as oft as you pretend innocency. no further proceeded in, and that he is not 11 You do not content yourselves with it, albeit never so light in respect of your faults. contented with that imprisonment we endured, which their honours are satisfied with. Lastly, my judgement in sundry matters of the discipline 12 That is sufficient. excepted, wherein differing from sundry learned men in our church, I have the consent of many worthy churches, and godly learned, both of this and 13 Speak not this for shame, for before Caluins' time, your fancies were never heard of. other ages, I would be ashamed for that singular mercy God had showed me by her majesties most gracious government, to come 14 Yet I have been in many places in her majesties service, where I could not see you. behind M. Sutcliffe in any duty, that my poor hand is able to reach unto. 15 What is this to Fenners cause? And that he 16 If I dare you, it is because I know you cannot. dareth me not once, but sundry times to answer touching these matters of discipline, I think it not so 17 Why did you then first begin this brawl? fit for me to undertake it, there being so many better able thereunto then I, especially in this declining and forgetful age of mine. and yet if my answer might have either that 18 At Geneva you may have both. allowance of print, or passage that his hath, and none other were found, I myself in this weakness I am in, would not be behind with answer to any thing that he hath been able to allege in this behalf, 19 A ridiculous surmise. if there be any thing in his writings, the answer where of is not already set down by such as have written in that cause. and that my silence in the cause of discipline is not altogether of the 20 I do think M. Cartwright able to do, and write well. but not in this cause. inability or fear M. D. Sutcliffe would so willingly fasten, or rather force upon me, let this be for an 21 An argument most weak, for it is more easy to refute the Rhemists false annotations then to establish new found conceits. argument, that where I was set 22 That should be done by the learned fathers of the church. on work by the right honourable Sir Francis Walsingham for the answer of the annotations of the jesuits upon the New testament, & had travailed therein to a rude and first draft of a great part thereof: understanding from some in authority, that I might not deal with it, I did not only not set any thing out myself, but also 23 Good for you, and for the cause. earnestly laboured by letters and friends here, and in Scotland both the hindrance of the printing some parts thereof, which being brought to Sir Francis afterward (much against my will) came into the hands of divers, to whom I would 24 Such is the pride of these men: they will not suffer their doings to be corrected. never have let them come. In the margin overagainst these words (hindrance of the printing) is this note placed. And 25 This note serveth to underprop the former weak argument. but to no good effect. for the unsufficiency of this, might deter him from attempting the other labour. if he stayed the publishing of that whereunto he was once allowed by authority, it is not in all likelihood to be thought, that he would hastily publish any thing of himself, howsoever he might be persuaded of the truth of it. Matth. Sutcliffe. In this answer there are two principal questions, that should have been resolved by M. Cartwright, if he meant to conclude aught against me. the first is, whether he did highly commend M. Fenners book or no, wherein this strange position mentioned in the title of his answer is contained; the second, whether granting so much as I charged him withal, he was herein slandered, as in every of his several accusations he pretendeth. of these two questions M. Cartwright resolveth neither. with what face then can he say, that he is slandered, not being able to deny any thing which I say, nor to justify his wrong imputation of slander? did he think, that I should never return to look into these matters? if he did, what hope hath he to make them good? Beside this wrong, where I say that Fenner giveth authority to inferior persons, as indeed he doth: he cunningly foisteth in superior persons. as if either he meant to 1 If he say, that a prince may be overruled by inferiors, he denieth the prince's sovereignty. if in such common wealths where the magistrates have indeed superiors, he deny their authority, he speaketh, as a man ignorant of antiquity and state. deny the prince's supremacy, or their authority (if any such may be) that have authority over the prince or king; as the Romans had over kings, that were their vassals and tributaries, of which we talk not, nor make any question. such goodly discourses maketh M. Cartwright all muffled about the eyes with the mask of innocency, so that he could see nothing, unless it were to misalledge my words, and to answer nothing to purpose. yet lest his clients and followers might think, he had said great matters; let us examine even this nothing. He saith, that M. Fenner giveth no such authority, as is said, but where the laws of the land do establish such an authority as the Ephori in Lacedaemonia had. A matter, as I showed, that made not to purpose, and which is also very false. for M. Fenner, as M. Cartwright should not be ignorant, speaketh of laws drawn out of the word of God, to which all princes ought to submit their sceptres. further he speaketh generally. he therefore that taketh it otherwise, doth both mistake and misconstrue. Driven from this ground he flieth to the second, and saith, that he is not of M. Fenners judgement. which sitteth him not well to say, unless he will contradict himself in his epistle. for the matters contained in M. Fenners book he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, leges, & iuracoelestis Canaan. Now, I trow, he will not deny God's laws, or as he calleth them the laws of heavenly Canaan beside this he reviewed the book and corrected it as appeareth by these words. Cupiebam (saith 2 The words of M. Cartwrights' epistle before M. Fenners book. M. Cartwright) libellum hunc quem sanè praeclarum abs te accepi, nec indignum, ut ei legendo vadimonium (quod dicitur) deseratur, pro voto & postulato tuo meliorem & cultiorem ad te remittere. ad quam rem quid attulerim, tu apud te statues. having then corrected what he thought amiss, will not M. Cartwright defend the rest; especially having made all so neat, and fine? thirdly as those that 3 l. lex cornelia. ff. de iniuriis §. si quis librum. publish and commend, or write or make books containing slanderous matter, are to answer for whatsoever is therein contained, so they that publish and commend books containing heretical and treacherous, and lewd opinions, are to answer for them much rather. in what case then is M. Cartwr. that by his excessive commendations hath given vent to this book, which no wise man I think will value? is not he perjured, that denieth that doctrine on his oath, which is contained in the book which he alloweth? as for M. Fenner let him rest in peace. he was towardly, but in setting forth this book, too forward; yea and percase M. Cartwrights' judgement therein did not a little abuse him. Thirdly he goeth on, and would have it considered, with what mind I do so often 4 Belike this point galled him, and therefore he would not have it touched, or rubbed. rub over this one point, seeing in the star-chamber he disavowed this opinion fathered upon M. Fenner as I do confess. as if it were sufficient to deny it, when a man hath done lewdly: or else if a man might not note his notorious contradictions, that is still opposing himself against the state. let him therefore rather consider, how unchristianly he hath dealt with many good men, and recant the wrong he hath done in disgracing of this church of England, and the state, and call back his lewd epistle, and that lewd book that hath, and doth still give occasion of just offence, let him also be sorry for his oath so rashly taken, and ashamed of his notorious contradiction in this matter. finally, let him deny, that the eldership hath authority to correct & excommunicate princes; and give unto them their due and right, and he shall neither be further rubbed, nor hear more of me. Fourthly, to press me down with the authority of the Star chamber, he goeth on, and yet leaveth it to be considered, with what christian modesty I may so often, and that in print move question of things to his discredit, which her majesties most honourable counsel 1 Let him show this. was pleased should be no further proceeded in, and that am not content with his imprisonment, which their honours are 2 A manifest untruth. satisfied with. as if christians either used not, or might not talk of matters examined, and ended in courts of public justice, especially so long as they did not control them or mislike them. nay therefore are such matters heard publicly, that men may have notice of them, and talk of them. and sometimes the sentences and proceed of judges are published abroad, that men may talk of them; that by the punishment of law breakers, and disloyal persons, others may be warned and restrained from running into such like disorders. Assuredly, if the strange opinions, and undutiful behaviour of these men, as they are well known to the judges, so had been well known to the people; men would never have either admired them or followed them, or praised that discipline which they seek for. Neither do I think, that there is any order in the Star chamber to the contrary, Why doth not M. Cartwright note it, if he know any such matter? it was their honours pleasure to show him great favour, and to accept of a certain submission he made, as I have heard: but that he should be quite discharged, I cannot believe. for M. Cartwright may remember, that he standeth 3 His bond is in the court of the commission for causes ecclesiastical. bound to appear at any time within 20. days warning given to him. which argueth that albeit he be dismissed upon hope of amendment; yet he is not discharged. dismissed he is of great favour, & through her majesties exceeding clemency. but if he run on his old courses, and accuse those of wrong that did him exceeding favour, he may percase understand what formerly he hath deserved. and if he be not dealt with all judicially by law, yet may it please him to give us leave to talk of his misdemeanours extraiudicially, until such time as he reform them. He is loath to have his 4 All this sect doth stand more upon their credit, albeit the same be little, then upon the truth of their cause. credit touched; yet hath not he spared his superiors, against whom he hath dealt. why we should not handle these points, there is neither law, nor commandment, nor reason to the contrary. What cause then hath M. Cartwright to insinuate, that I have made a breach of christian modesty in speaking of them? may not a man with christian modesty note the faults and errors of these men, especially when they go about to defend them? I never sought quarrel, nor entered into these matters, before I was thereto urged, and provoked. M. Cartwright (I think) doth know that I did not so much as move question of these matters, before I was drawn into them, by a lewd and contentious companion of that sect, that in a book entitled A petition, would needs name me, and move divers questions to the disgrace of the present government of the church, of which I am a minister, and therefore deeply therein interessed; and to the discredit of divers good men, and my good friends: nor before that job Throk. a great champion of puritan chivalry, and a noble pillar of Martinisme, would needs charge me with slandering of the whole brotherhood of deformation, and go about to justify the chief heads, and maintainers of that faction. being then named in print, and railed at in print, and called forth in print to justify what I had said; how could I with any honesty forbear to answer in print? nay so far am I from infringing any point of christian modesty in this behalf, that I should greatly have offended on the other side, if being charged with divers bad opinions and misdemeanours, I should have neglected them, and held my peace. Ruffinus doth not think him to be a christian, that being noted of heresy, doth dissemble the matter, and hold his peace. and Lawyers say, quod negligere famam crudele est. he that striketh must not think much to have his blows warded. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, saith Achilles. Iliad. 1. but these fellows when like Thersites they have railed and spoken evil of others, yea of princes; do disdain to hear themselves justly reproved, and most arrogantly disdain to have themselves touched. most vain therefore, and causeless is this complaint. But I deal very hardly (as he thinketh) and unchristianly, that am not content with his imprisonment, which satisfied their lordships. which is a matter more, than he knoweth; sure more than I can learn, or believe. for albeit of favour it pleased them, and of their great benignity and clemency to inflict this punishment only; yet how knoweth he, that they were satisfied therewith; especially seeing they are not yet discharged? but were it true, yet what a ridiculous point is it to think, that men may not speak of matters, for which malefactors are imprisoned, especially when they or their friends do repine and grudge at their punishment, and pretend hard dealing and injustice, as the petitioner and job Throk. did in the behalf of M. Cartwr. and others? neither was the imprisonment of M. Cartwr. so grievous, or costly to him, that either himself or others should complain, or lament for the remembrance of it. So soft was his lying, so trim was his lodging, so pleasant was his company, so dainty was his fare, so great were the gifts he had, so diligent was his wife to rake in rewards; that many brave men of good desert, that serve her majesty in her wars would be content (the shame only except) to exchange the commodity of their places with him. but if these men have not what they would, or if their pillows lie not right, they think all men do them wrong, that do not pity them. yea, albeit they murmur at their judges; yet would they have no man to open their mouth against them. Lastly, he entereth into comparison with me, and saith, be would be ashamed to come behind me in any duty. wherein it had been good if he had hired M. Throk. or some of his friends to speak for him. This domestical testimony of himself savoureth strongly of folly and arrogancy, & is little to be respected. yea, albeit his deserts were greater, yet is the comparison odious, and loath I am to follow M. Cartwright in this vanity. yet thus much I may say for myself: that I never was imprisoned for any undutiful and disloyal opinions and misdemeanours, as he hath been, neither did I ever hide my head in corners as he hath done: nor did I ever so nearly touch her majesties royal prerogative, her revenues, and her laws, as M. Cartwright did; nor ever have I written books in defence of a new government of the church, nor maintained the same directly against laws, as he hath done and doth. Again I think M. Cartwright was never employed in her majesties service, as I have been now this fourth time: yea while I was in her service in the journey of Guadix, he employed all his time and labour in setting forth and printing this most simple brief. o what brags would he make, if ever he had done her majesty service, that is not now ashamed to brag of his dutiful behaviour towards her majesty, whose whole time hath been employed in oppugning that ecclesiastical government, which by her authority is established! so little doth he shame to look into the crooked course of his whole life and study. For answer therefore to this objection, M. Cartwright doth insinuate, that all other matters being equal, he is behind me only in his judgement in matters of discipline. which is untrue. for notwithstanding that judgement, he might have done her majesty service, if he had would, as I have done. Beside that, this only dealing of his about his fanciful discipline is matter sufficient to convict him of notorious misdemeanours, and undutiful carriage of himself, as hath been declared. neither is his defence of any moment, where he saith, that many are of his opinion. for in every lewd practice there are lightly many consorts; and heretics and schismatics want no followers. Beside that, it is untrue that many worthy churches and godly learned of this and other ages are of his opinion. for before Caluins' time his discipline was never heard of. and albeit now some churches do embrace his opinions herein: yet do they not consent with M. Cartwright in many points. nor I think did they allow any negotiation and practice for the establishing of his new discipline in this land by forging, railing, libeling, and disloyal dealing. Would therefore M. Cartwr. do me this favour in two other sheets of paper to show that godly learned men of other ages were of his opinion, and that other churches allow his courses, he should clear himself of the suspicion of a great and notorious untruth. The rest of M. Cartwrights' answer in this place is nothing, but an idle digression nothing pertinent to the clearing of the objection concerning his judgement of Fenners book, and the authority by him given to certain Ephori to overrule princes, yet lest he should compleine he were not answered, I am to crave pardon, if I examine this also. He saith first, that although I dare him not once, but sundry times to answer touching these matters of discipline, yet it is not so fit for him to undertake it. To this I answer first that albeit I should dare him, yet it is no slander to his worship that I dare him. it is rather shame for him, that he cometh not forth being dared. Secondly he doth me wrong to say, I dare him. for he dare do any thing, yea things very absurd, and unlawful. But in deed I do in divers points challenge him to maintain his bold and rash assertions, and that not to stir contention, but to show that albeit he dare do it, yet he can not maintain his cause. Thirdly I do maintain, that there is no man that hath more reason to answer in these causes than he. and that first, for that he in this Church first of all in large books defended these opinions. Now why should any be thought more fit to speak, than he that first made challenge, and entered the lifts in defence of this cause? Secondly there is none whom that side doth more desire should answer then M. Cartwright. Thirdly they imagine that none is more able. Fourthly the cause of others is deserted. Fiftly none promised or bragged so much as he. Lastly of all men, I would that M. Cartwright should specially answer, that when it appeareth, how the patriarch of discipline can say nothing; his followers that are abused, might soon be moved to change opinion. And if neither his adversaries provocation, nor his friends desire, nor his own reputation, nor his cause deserted, nor his own great words and brags do move him: I see no excuse he can have, but the impossibility of defence, and the untruth of matters heretofore defended by him. He pretendeth age and forgetfulness, but the first is not sufficient, the second is absurd. for he ought not to forget his duty, nor what he is to say for himself. He saith also, that others are more able. but I dare say, he believeth it not, and his friends by no means will admit it. Therefore when no just excuse can be alleged of silence, he proceedeth saying, that if either his answer might have allowance of print or passage, himself in that weakness he is in, would not be behind to answer any thing, that I have been able to allege in these matters. as if he might not as well print and pass his books at Geneva or Heidelberg, as he did his first and second replies. Beside that, if the matters he standeth on be such as he saith, than ought he to care for no allowance, nor passage. for if discipline be a part of the Gospel, and so constantly to be defended, as that he ought to give his life for it, yea so many lives as he hath hairs of his head; these are no just excuses why he should fly back. Further, when he printed his first books he desired neither passage nor allowance, why then should he now desire it, more than then? Is his heat of zeal cooled, or is he grown wise? nay he saith he is grown weak. percase he hath taken some rheum or cold that hath disordered the records of his fancy, which is the proper seat of his discipline. But this is no allowable excuse, especially seeing he doubteth not but to answer whatsoever I have been able to allege: for so he saith. Yet his friends do rather look for performance. For his brags, I say nothing, but as the Poet saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Let us see your promises achieved, and then crow out your victory. 1 In Theatet. Plato saith, it is a cravenly cock, that crieth so loud before the fight. That M. Cartwright meaneth not to deal further in this matter, I take this as a presumption, for that he doubteth whether there be any thing in my writings, which is not answered already by those, that have written in that cause. for that is only a cloak for his sluggishness, and the weakness of his consistorial discipline. but such a cloak, as beareth out neither wind, rain, nor Sun. I wonder that he should make such an exception, and that not without some note of a hard forehead and conscience. For he knoweth that the books I have written, whereof one is in Latin, the other in English, are directly against their discipline, which argument none to my knowledge ever handled severally and purposely either before me, or after me. Other books that have been written in this cause are rather for defence of the present government, then against their new discipline. How then can my books be said to be answered in other treatises, that are rather written to oppugn our government, then to defend theirs? especially seeing in my books all these arguments are answered which here and there others have written for the new discipline. Somewhat I confess hath been written since, but nothing to the purpose, nor orderly, nor schollerly. As for M. Beza it pleaseth him to rail on me, & give me evil language which God forgive him, and I forgive & forget, but to the matter he answereth nothing. Nay his discourse is such as rather we do pity the man for his age and weakness, then value any thing he hath said. and yet both M. D. Saravia hath answered him, and so have I, and have the book ready to be printed, if any begin but once to stir in the cause. Wherefore good M. Cartwright either let me have public, or private answer to content me, or else leave of your bragging promises. if not, whatsoever you say, all your followers will mislike you, and your adversaries take your silence for confession. In the end of this answer of his, he goeth about to prove, that his silence proceedeth not altogether from inability or fear, because having proceeded to a rude 1 His answer consisting of divers pieces, collected by divers of the fraternity in Cambridge, known to be of small sufficiency, he hath no such cause to tell us of his great labours taken, & learning showed therein. draft of an answer to a great part of the jesuitical annotations upon the New testament (of which he maketh a great brag) yet being countermanded he did not publish them, nor (as he saith in the margin) useth hastily to publish any thing, howsoever he might be persuaded of the truth of it. but of all others, this reason is most simple and least concludent. for the case is far different betwixt the publication of his answer to the Rhemish annotations, (which I know not why he calleth jesuitical, or his answer, being pieced together by divers other) and this expected defence of discipline. for that was never expected at his hands, nor promised, nor could without others help be performed: this was both much expected, and in his first replies in effect promised, and this he thought himself once able to perform. beside that, all his partakers desired his defence of the new discipline, which they expected would be a work very complete, and the rather they desired it, because others abandoned the cause. but his answer to the Rhemish annotations, wrought out in the monastery of S. Laurence for the most part very rudely, beside his own followers, none expected, & some wise men thought meet should be stopped, both for the discordance of the parts, & for that by his simple dealing in many points, especially concerning discipline, he betrayed our cause, and did give more advantage to the adversary, than all his side would have done good. and lastly for that M. D. Fulke very sufficiently and learnedly before him had dealt in the cause. neither doth any well advised man think it expedient, that he should deal in the public cause, unless his writings might be publicly reviewed before they were printed, which his haughty spirit could by no means endure. the which appeareth by his words in this place. for albeit some part of the preface to his book was brought to those that had authority to peruse it, yet he signifieth that if he could have chosen, it should never have come to their hands. it was not therefore his moderation, that stayed the printing (for he confesseth that some parts were already going to the press) but the insufficiency of his work, and the author's pride, that would admit no correction; and lastly, for that D. Fulke of blessed memory, a man more judicious, and learned, than he, had travailed therein more sufficiently, and perfectly before him. and thus much by the way to take away his frivolous excuses of his silence in the cause of discipline, in which first he was so fiery and furious. Now let us return to his foresaid brief of slanders. M. Cartwrights' answer being charged, how that upon the coming forth of Martin, he is reported to have said, that it was no matter, if the bishops were so handled, seeing they would take no warning. Let it be judged (saith he) what 1 What guiltiness of conscience is it that suffereth him not to deny it? christian love it is to commit such things to print upon a 2 It is to be testified by witness. bare report. and if the reporters had been named, as in other cases where he doth call out the persons by their names, the truth might have the better appeared. for me I am able to produce witnesses, that the first time that ever I heard of Martin Marprelate, I testified my great misliking and grief, for so naughty and so disorderly a 3 You misliked the course, but not at the first, nor that BB. should be abused. course, as that was. and therefore where fol. 51. p. 1. he asketh when I will condemn the unlawful and uncivil practice of Martin and Penry? I ask again what 4 You take on you the office of a doctor or pastor, which is an office to do that, very sufficient. office or charge I have to publish condemnation upon every unlawful and uncivil 5 This touched your cause nearer, than other writings. writing that cometh abroad? and yet I have witnesses, that even publicly when I was allowed to preach, I condemned all dealing 6 Note that he misliked not Martin, but all dealing in that kind, because his side was thereby nearly touched in that kind, and sound themselves unable to answer. in that kind. Matth. Sutcliffe. M. Cartwright would accuse me of want of christian love in committing these things to print (as he saith) upon bare report. but all men do see a great want in him of Christian wisdom, to accuse others for reporting such things, as himself dare not deny. what proof therefore needeth, when he dare not deny what is alleged, or what needeth other accuser, when his own conscience doth accuse him of speaking these words? and yet if other proof be required, it shall be testified by him that heard it, although now I forbear to name my friend, that is loath to come in print. in old M. Bodleyes' house the words were spoken. and if the man were alive, I suppose he could witness them. besides him there are divers about Warwick which will testify, that he said, it was the justice of God, that bishops whose calling was unlawful should so be handled by Martin. let no man therefore doubt of the truth of this report. But saith he, I am able to produce witnesses, that I misliked so naughty a course. which shall not need. for I will not deny, but he misliked the course. yet not at the first, but after that himself felt the smart; sure, that bishops should be railed at, he did not mislike. and worthy it is to be marked, that he saith he misliked the course, and not the purpose and thing that Martin aimed at. yet certes if he had misliked either the course or the malicious matter of those execrable libels, he would one time or other have publicly, or privately declared his mislike of those matters and courses, and rebuked the authors, and neither have read the books nor suffered his friends to read them. doing any of these, how can it be thought that ever he misliked that bishops should be so unchristianly, & consistorianly dealt withal? He answereth that he had no office to condemn every unlawful and uncivil writing. I grant. yet being either preacher, or doctor, or private lay man, he might have declared his opinion; especially seeing so many did depend upon it. therefore he sayeth, that being allowed to preach, he condemned all dealing in that kind. which I can hardly believe. for how is it likely he should condemn Martin, using so familiarly the authors of Martin, viz. john Penry, that was not many years ago hanged; and M. job Throk. whom God preserve from hanging. beside that, he can not deny, but that either he hath the book, or hath had or read the book, and heard that his partisans do commonly read the books. Cod. de. famous. libel. l. vnic. Now the civil laws condemn not only the authors of libels, but also all such as have them, or find them, and do not tear them, and burn them. in what case then should M. Cartwr. be, that not only hath by his scoffs and flowers of railing traced out a way for Martin, but also had the books of Martin, and is so well acquainted with the authors? the truth is, that M. Cartwright and his confraternity of disciplinarians, so long as the libels of Martin went currently thorough every man's hands without all answer, or opposition, so long they liked them well, and much joyed in their brother Martin, as a worthy champion of discipline, and a brave author of their reformation. but when as one began to whip him as an ape, another to bang him as an ass, another to cut him down with an hatchet, and that divers of the brotherhood began to see themselves sound lashed, and felt themselves unable to proceed in this course: as men unwilling to see their own faults in print, and impatient to be touched in their credit; they began a little to reprove libeling: not because they misliked their merry mad friend Martin, but because they would reprove & speak against those, that spoke against themselves. so M. Cartwright percase condemned all dealing in that kind, albeit he do well love and like M. Throkmorton, and praise his martinical writings. Well therefore it may be said, that albeit he liked well of Martin, yet he condemned all others dealing in that kind, and that he is notwithstanding guilty of slandering many good men, liking so well the authors and libels of Martin. that I have slandered him in reporting thus much, he hath no reason, nor wit to say: for were it untrue; yet every untruth amounteth not to slander; and being most true, and not directly denied, how shamed he not, to note this as a slander? M. Cartwrights' answer being charged, that he commendeth extemporal prayers most highly, as being uttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration, and for that when the time was, he would scarce be induced to like of a prescript form of prayer. Where in my reply, or in treatise of 1 Who can make any sense of all this sentence? what matter I remember not, nor M. Sutcliffe (I believe) shall ever show that Tho. Cartwr. hath so little knowledge of divinity as to 2 He hath affirmed worse matters. affirm, that the extemporal prayers of any (how able soever in these days) are uttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration. and in what place, or time, and in whose hearing could I scarcely be 3 In your first reply pag. 106. where you argue as long as you can against it. induced to like of a prescript form of prayer? the 4 They shall be noted to your grief. noting of these circumstances which he doth diligently, yea curiously (where he thinketh they may serve the turn) would easily have bewrayed the untruth thereof. my continual 5 Your practice is no good rule. no not of your own opinions. practice in the ministery witnesseth against it. for in the space of five years I preached at Andwerpe, and Middleborough, I did every Sunday read the 6 Who prescribed you that form? prayer out of the book. and all the while I preached at Warwick, there were few sermons I ever made there, but (to my remembrance) I did shut up the 7 viz. extemporal. prayer either before, or after the sermon with the lords prayer. beside that, the prayer before the sermon ordinarily was a set & 8 All this proveth not prescribed. accustomed form of prayer, howsoever I read it not out of the book, and likewise was that after the sermon some small part excepted, where in my prayer I applied some principal points of the doctrine then handled. all 9 All which is beside your purpose, and maketh nothing for you. which I would not have done, if I had not allowed, yea well liked also a prescript form of prayer. and hitherto of the former kind of 10 Neither are they slanders, nor concern they necessary duties. slanders concerning the breach of necessary duties imposed upon all Christians. the second of things 11 Note how he is slandered for things indifferent. indifferent in their own nature followeth. for as touching his charge of 12 Odious railing, a thing put among things indifferent. odious and 13 Do I say you are ignorant in railing? ignorant railing etc. I refer myself to indifferent judgement upon the books which are extant. Matth. Sutcliffe. The beginning of M. Cartwr. answer to this charge, hath no sense to be picked out of it: which I take to be the correctors fault, and so let it pass. his meaning is, that I can not show either in his reply or other treatise of his, that he hath so little knowledge in divinity, as to say that the extemporal prayers of any in these days are uttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration. wherein he doth himself wrong to call his knowledge of divinity in question. for to say what I find, if he approve M. Fenners book so far as his epistle commendatory pretendeth; his skill in divinity is nothing singular. the same doth appear by strange points holden in his replies. but better should I judge, if leaving his busy kind of dealing against the state, he had written any book concerning points of faith. Yea in this very point in hand I do wonder how he hath here slipped. for being charged by me for better liking of extemporal prayers than any prescript form of prayers, as is true indeed, and shall be verified against him: here very ignorantly he falleth into the contrary error, and saith, he is not so ignorant of divinity, as to affirm that the extemporal prayers of any in these days are uttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration. which is to deny the working of the holy Ghost in the prayers of the godly, and to contrary the holy apostle, which 1 Rom. 8. saith, that the holy Ghost helpeth our infirmities when we know not what to pray, as we ought. and if our prayers were not aided by God's holy spirit, they would not please God. so that to charge him herewith; is no slander, nor if I should so say, is it criminal to say, that extemporal prayers of godly men devoutly and discreetly conceived are uttered by the inward motions of God's holy spirit inspiring them. but indeed I do not charge him herewith, but say, that M. Cartwr. doth commend extemporal prayers, as uttered by the holy Ghosts secret inspiration. which is true. for whereas the authors of the admonition do 2 Admonit, to the Parliam. say, that in the time of the apostles the minister spowred forth hearty supplications to the Lord, as the spirit moved them; M. Cartwright doth take on him the defence of this admonition. beside that for my part I never heard M. Cartwright refuse to use extemporal prayers. and I doubtnot, but he thought he prayed by the motion or assistauce of God's spirit. yea and all the brotherhood, as they are mistermed, doth use long extemporal prayers both before meat and after meat, especially at great feasts; for than they make longest prayers, now they doubt not, but they pray as the spirit giveth them utterance. although indeed some of their speaks do rather savour of the pot, then of any goodness, finally, all the Baroists upon these foundations, and the common practice of extemporal prayers, have condemned all prescript forms of prayer, which declareth that they understood M. Cartwright as I do. Secondly he asketh me, in what time & place, and in whose hearing he could scarcely be induced to like of a prescript form of prayer. and saith, that if these circumstances had been set down, the untruth of my allegation would have appeared. and that his continual practice in the ministry doth witness against me. Wherein I cannot choose but wonder that he should so much forget himself, and wilfully abuse his reader. For first he may remember, that the admonition which he taketh on him to defend doth hold, that in the primitive Church the ministers were not tied to any form of prayers invented by man. And that my L. of Canterbury refuting this error, he goeth about to 1 1. reply p. 106. answer his reasons, and yieldeth not till afterward; so that it appeareth he was not easily induced. he may also remember, that he would 2 In the end of his first reply. have all Apostolical orders now received and used. Beside that, his continual practice is to use no prescript form of prayers, but such as himself deviseth, and so do the whole race of these sectaries, yea and so often times have they been heard to commend extemporal forms, and to dislike prescript forms, that I wonder how it cometh to pass, that M. Cartwright should here maintain the contrary. But let us see his reasons. First saith he, my continual 3 A weak reason. for his practice is not always according to his opinion, and doctrine. He was wont to speak against dispensations, and non residence; and yet now is none resident from his charge, and prayed to be dispensed with, as they say. practice in the ministery doth witness against it. a matter notoriously untrue. For as long as he was in Cambridge, he prayed as it pleased himself, and used forms by himself devised. And so like wise do all his followers, and those have I heard most commended which preaching continually, yet every day used new forms. And albeit M. Cartwright did read prayers at Antwerp and Middleborough out of the book, as he saith, yet that doth not show that those prayers were prescribed to him. neither were his forms of prayer at Warwick such as this Church of England prescribed, but such as himself devised. Yea although he said the Lords prayer, yet in that sort it was not to him prescribed, as he said it. I beseech you therefore judge what a heinous slander this is to say, that M. Cartwright scarce could be induced when time was to like of a prescript form of prayer, when he is not able to show that either by doctrine or example he approved prayers publicly prescribed, nor would ever suffer himself to be tied to the orders of the Church of England. And thus much is sufficient for answer of his slanders supposed to be published by me against him, concerning breach of necessary duties. Wherein it may clearly appear, that either he doth lewdly collect that which was not meant, or seek to shun that, which cannot be avoided. Did you ever before this hear of a man so slandered with truth, and matters not criminal? but belike the man was podagrical, and cried before we came near him. Now we are to proceed to examine his second branch of slanders concerning matters indifferent, the which is as strange as the other. so strange are they both, that in no good author I ever read the like. But before we begin; a word or two concerning that wrong that M. Cartwright thinketh to be done to him being charged, as he saith, with odious railing. which yet I trust he will not count slander, both for that it is left out of his division, and for that it is most evident, and true. That he raileth uncivilly these particulars testify. his adversaries he compareth to dogs & gheese. the ministry of England he calleth roving, his adversaries learned works he calleth dung. the Bishops he calleth Popish & antichristian. Me he doth charge with unchristian and immodest dealing, & suffereth his friend in the preface to cry out with full mouth against me. Infinite are his flowers in this kind. which I doubt not in every man's account are odious, yet should I do him wrong to call it ignorant, the man having so good skill and so excellent a vein herein. only let him not use it to much, nor brag of it. For the more skill he showeth herein, the less commendation he shall deserve. odious railing, and Christian discretion hardly meet together in one man. But let us proceed to the rest. M. Cartwrights' answer being charged not to have refused the execution of his brother Stubbes his will. I was not (saith he) so much as 1 That argueth your evil deserts towards him. named in my brother's will, and to put of M. Sutcliffes' shift of answer he hath made to excuse himself in his latter book, that by the word of last will he 1 Set down my words, and they will convince you of untruth. would understand any conveyance lately made before his death, wherein trust was committed unto me, I answer that my brother Stubbes did never either long before, or soon 2 How could he commit trust being dead? after his death put me in trust with any of his 3 How happeneth it then he so soon resigned the things mortgaged? worldly estate either by word, or writing. 4 But there percase was. Neither is there (as M. Sutcliffe surmiseth) any unkindness of my brothers towards me, in not putting me in trust, which would not that way be employed, or my unkindness towards him, who trusted him with my whole estate that way. And that my brother's wife and kindred rested not satisfied with my dealing, 5 Neither, as your bad conscience testtfieth. either is an untruth of M Sutchffes, or a most causeless complaint of their behalf. For where in regard of my wife's portion of two hundred pounds, I had an annuity in fee simple, for default of payment whereof after his death, (besides th'annuity and arrearages) I had a lease of anhundreth jeers 6 This either was in trust. or else intolerable usury. granted me of certain pastures to the yearly value of six pounds by estimation for a pepercorne only, I was content (to the end the lands might be 7 What became of your annuity then? sold for the satisfying of my brother's 8 Were you none of them? creditors) freely and for nought to release my interest in that lease, which the law for want of payment of th' annuity did evidently cast upon me. Also to yield up mine annuity for the 9 A great matter! unless the annuity were, as it were a cloak for usury, and therefore great. same sum of money I had paid to my brother, without both which my brother's land would have found no convenient sale for the payment of his creditors until this day. And of my dealing herein I take 10 They knew not all. witness S. Robert Germin of Suffolk, M. Atkins, and M. tindal of Lincoln's Inn: who were (in deed) the men my brother trusted with his worldly estate: and who (in my judgement) acquitted the trust my brother reposed in them accordingly. Matth. Sutcliffe. I will not deny, but there might be some mistaking in him that brought me this report of M. Cartwrights' dealing in the execution of M. Stubbes his will. for, as M. Cartwright affirmeth, and by perusing his will I find, his brother did not so far trust him. But assuredly my purpose was not to wrong him. neither to my knowledge have I done it, were all true that M. Cartwr. saith, which not withstanding I am not bound to believe. For I do not 1 Answer to the petit. p. 8. & 9 say, as M. Cartwright untruly affirmeth, that he was content to be executor to his brothers Stubbens his will, but that he refused not the execution of his will. And that was not only reported to me, but believed, for that common humanity and the office of a kinsman and brother required it at his hands, and for that in truth M. Cartwright confesleth, that there were dealings that passed betwixt him and his brother in trust. But be it, that he was either not so greedy as to desire, or so inhuman and unkind as to refuse in part to execute his brothers will going in his countries service, and having none nearer to him then M. Cartwright; what slander is this? Is it a dishonest part to execute his brothers will? nay it is a rude and inhuman part to refuse to do it. But may not ministers deal therein? yes: and as honest men as M. Cartwright too. neither doth Cyprians case concern our times. Why then should this be a slander? forsooth (percase) because he hath taught, that ministers may not be excutors of wills, nor deal in civil causes. and therefore he would be loath to deal in matters of wills. Why then doth he deal in civil causes? why doth he deal in leases, in money, in lands, and all those things that executors deal in? why is he still master of an Hospital? and if to charge him in this be no slander, sure no slander it is to charge him in the other. Untruth it may be, but certes no slander. What then if neither it be untruth, nor slander? hath M. Cartwright any cause to complain? assuredly for aught M. Cartwright hath said as yet, there is not any untruth in any words to be found. For if so be M. Stubbes did never offer it, nor name M. Cartwright his executor, then true it is which I say, that he refused it not. And why? because it was never either offered or meant. But because indeed I supposed there had been some intendment in M. Stubbes to put trust in him, it shall be showed that in that sense he hath not refuted my words. He saith first, that he was not named in his brothers will. Admit it were so. yet divers do administer goods, that are not named in the testators will: those especially that have trust put in them. Beside that, he doth not deny, but he might be named in the schedule mentioned in the will, and which is a part of the same. Thirdly he confesseth that he yielded up a lease worth 6. pound yearly above all reprise for nothing, and his annuity for the sum his brother had of him: which declareth, that this was a matter of trust. for I do not believe, that M. Cartwright was so tender hearted, as to give a way his things for little or nothing. Fourthly why should mistress Stubbes & her friends complain of M. Cartwright, if nothing was put to his trust? that her complaint should be causeless, is ridiculous. that she complained, his conscience well knoweth, and it shall be verified if he will. but seeing he will needs show himself so unkind, as to abrenounce his brother's last requests, and so inhuman as not to see his brother's last will executed, be it so: and let this be put among the uncivil and unnatural rules of puritanisine. yet if he deal in the business of his hospital according to my lord of Leicester's or my lord of Warwikes last will, I doubt not, but he will prove an executor of a will. but forsooth he will not execute any man's will, but great lords. howsoever it is; my argument which in my answer to the petition I made against M. Cartwright and his discipline standeth firm. for if M. Cartwr. deal in the government of his hospital, and other civil causes of his own; albeit he take himself to be a minister of the word; then either he doth against his own rule, or else hath no reason to exclude ministers from dealing in civil causes. but it appeareth he dealeth in civil causes, yea and that as may by his own simple tale be presumed, very hardly. for if beside his annuity and writing for it, he had a lease worth 6. li. yearly for one peppercorne, it appeareth that hard dealing in his conscience weigheth not so much as one pepper come, especially if he meant to take the advantage. M. Cartwrights' answer to a certain question of mine concerning purchasing of land and buying of leases. Hear (saith he) is a 1 Hear is impudent dealing. show my words to this effect if you can. charge of a purchase of three or four good manours, and two good leases, and both got (for the most part) by the 2 Do you say so yourself? I say it not. spoil of the hospital, except the price of some small cottage etc. for the purchase of three or four manours, I never purchased any manor in my life, but the manor of Saxmund. 3 M. Caluin never purchased so much: yet was he as learned as Master Cartwright. ham in Suffolk, whereof I have yet but the moiety, neither shall have these fourteen or fifteen years, if one M. johnsons leaese be available, as hither to he hath enjoyed it by 4 If by you, than you do enjoy it. me, who have not disturbed his possession. the rent that he yieldeth for the one half of the domains is but thirty shillings by year. the rent of the domains that I receive (although 5 Are you a racker of rents, and tormentor of tenants? enhanced as far as the tenant may bue thereof) is but 26. li. by year, the other rends for copyholds come yearly to a 3. li. or there about, as I 6 His forgetfullage, of which he spoke lately, maketh him forget the just of his rents. remember. so that the whole of that I receive cometh to little above 30. li. by the year. to 7 Was not your lands sold long before your purchase? purchase this, I sold of the inheritance my father and grandfather left, as fair a house for a farm not only as is in that town where it standeth, but in divers towns about, which had between eight or nine score acres of arable land belonging unto it with 8 Small matters in that country: all lying common. commons, meadow, and pasture agreeable to the farms in that country, by year more than three times worth the value, that either my father, or I received for it. and yet we received 9 All is between, nothing just. between eight and nine pounds yearly of clear rent 10 Tell what you sold it for, and it will appear that Saxmundham cost you much more. discharged of all quit rents. that M. Sutcliffe may the better 11 I have no leisure. and I trust you tell true. inquire into it, the farm is situate in Waddon in the county of Cambridge, where I had also a coat with a close adjoining unto it, which I sold when I did sell the other. Now 12 Name, where I say it. where he saith, I purchased my lands with my hospital, I know not why he should so often term it 13 Because you are master of it forsooth. my hospital, rather than (as it is truly called) the hospital of the right honourable the earl of Leicester. but this I know and profess constantly, that neither I 14 Nor did any to your use, not your wives use, or children's? nor any for me purchased one foot of 15 Percase you have bestowed all in leases or other commodities. land for me since I came to the hospital. I sold an annuity in fee simple of 16 That seemeth to be bought for one hundred pound. which is no usury. 12. li. 10.5. by year since I came thither, as my lord chief justice of her majesties Common pleas doth well 17 As if he remembered all fines and bargains made before him. know, before whom I acknowledged a fine. 18 It is no matter, your revenues being great other ways. leases of the hospital I never made but one only, for which the house and 19 What received you? not I received 30. li. and because he draweth me to these accounts of the hospital, I will offer, and in the hearing of any equal and indifferent auditor will make it clear, that besides my 20 Travel about civil causes. continual travel for the settling & suits of the hospital, which I (never brought up there to) would not have undertaken for any money, but 21 Why have you your stipend? only for conscience and duty to the poor hospital my 22 An executor of his will in that. L. trusted me with: I have laid out of mine own purse 23 Can you charge the hospital with no more? 40. marks over & above that which I have 24 Let us know your allowances, and we will confess it to. received, or am like to receive, unless the stock which is holden from the house be recovered this partly may appear by an account I gave unto her majesties commissioners who had charge (among others) to inquire and certify the whole estate of the 25 Who hath made it poor, having such good revenues? poor hospital. Now for the two leases in Welborne, they were 26 Might not other lands also be bought to M. Cartwrights' use by his friends aswell as these leases? bought by a friend of mine, who being the principal dealer is left 27 Because the question is only concerning M. Cartwright. out, whether to draw more envy to me, let it be judged, especially of that which hereafter shall appear. I confess I should have had a part therein, but they were never enjoyed either of him or me, but were 28 I trust you had money for them. released to M. Morgan, for that he was not able without his 29 What conscience then had you first to take them? utter undoing to perform them. and where he 30 I say not so. I only talk what might be made of them. which I hope M. Cartwright looked well to. saith they were worth to me two hundred marks by the year, they never have been nor will be worth to us both two bundred farthings in all. More than that (albeit my L. chief justice of England dealeth very honourably with us) yet I refer it to his judgement (if his lordship will be pleased to speak in so private a matter) that we are great 31 Of gain hoped for, or in M. Cartwrights' own opinion. losers by M. Morgan. and M. Morgan (if he have but a spark of good nature) shall be constrained to 32 He eried out of your biting usury, they say. confess our kind and christian de aling with him both in releasing his bargain for a 33 Where is that sum now bestowed? sum far underneath the value it was worth, and 34 Not without consideration, I trust. forbearing him many years with much patience, after the forfeiture of his recognizaence, and many promises broken with us. now where he excuseth these two last charges of being executor to my brother Stubbes, and of purchase of lordships (as he doth excuse many other things) in that he doth propound it only in a question; it is 35 You are unworthy to be accounted a disputer, that take this for granted. unworthy of any answer, not only because a 36 Strange logic like to the strange discipline. quenstion doth more strongly sometimes avow then a bare affirmation, but because he is so violently and bitterly carried against the petitioner for the things he hath set down by 37 The reason is for that he seemeth not to doubt of his questions. way of question, and for his 38 Where do I make such excuse? shame you not to devise these soolish shifty? excuse of being mistaken by the report of others. I refer it once again to judgement, how it fitteth with the credit of a minister of the Gospel, to publish (and that inprint) 39 If you can prove, that I do so, you shall have the garland, and be crowned king of the Consistory. what soever he receiveth by report to the discredit of a 40 Where were you ordained minister? minister of the Gospel. and unless M. Sutcliffe will 41 I will bring forth God willing, that whereof you will be much ashamed. bring forth his reporter, some will happily conceive, that it is the invention of his own head. and 42 Do you doubt of that, you affirmed even now? if he did receive it by report, yet seeing he would blow it abroad by so strong a blast, as the print, at the least he should not have simply affirmed it, but set it down as a report. lastly, where he saith, he desireth not to be acquainted with my estate, he forgetteth himself. for in his former book (as I remember, for I have 43 You were not then wise to speak without book so merely imagined vatrueth. not the book at this present) he 44 It standeth you upon to show where. promiseth to be a diligent surveyor, or auditor of mine and other men's lands. and in deed he is over diligent, that can find lands of mine in 45 Have you indeed neither land, lease nor fee, yourself nor other to your use in Norfolk nor Warwick shire? Warwikeshire and Norfolk, whereof I myself, nor any of my friends know not one foot. yet M. Doctor Sutcliffe admonished in this behalf of his 46 It will appear otherwise. for indeed albeit I have not affirmed that he hath three or sour manours, yet he hath in value more rend then some five or six manours in England. untruth set forth in his former book, and occasioned thereby to correct himself, feareth not in this later to affirm boldly, that if he have done amiss, it is because he hath set down too little, too much (saith he) I have not set down. f. 69. p. 2. f. 70. p. 1. Matth. Sutcliffe. M. Cartwright in the title of his answer doth directly affirm, first that I charge him with the purchase of 3. or four good manors, & secondly that he hath purchased them with the spoil of the Hospital. and thirdly by both these charges would he insinuate, that he is grievously slandered. These three points therefore do rest orderly to be discussed. To the first I say, that I do not charge him to have purchased 3. or 4. Lordships. why doth not he that so boldly avoucheth this of me, and pleadeth so long against me for it, set down my words or note the place where they are to be found? Is he determined still to use such perverse and strange dealing? In deed I confess that I asked a question of Tho. Cart. how a man might by selling a coat and a few acres of land buy 3. or 4. lordships. But every one that asketh a question especially in matter of fact, and concerning other men's dealings doth not affirm so much as he maketh a question of, for than were questions and affirmations all one, and it were unlawful to ask question in any doubtful cause. And then should the petitioner and other of M. Cartwr. consorts that have made many questions of very odious matters, affirm the same. which were a point very dangerous not only to the authors of the book, but to the whole Puritan faction, that so well liked it. The petitioner doth ask whether men ought to incur penalties for opinions they held doubtingly. Quest. 1 yet it is heresy to doubt of matters of faith, and disloyalty to doubt of the prince's title and right to the crown. So that I trust he will not affirm, so much as is contained in his question. Secondly he demandeth, Quest. 2 whether the form of prayers and administration of Sacraments, the attire of ministers, and other ceremonies of the Church of England are more agreeing to the Church of Rome, or the Apostles and primitive order. I trust M. Cartur. will not affirm thus much in behalf of the author of the petition. He asketh of me why M. Cartwr. Quest. 10 may not sell the lands he had from his father, and buy other with the money, as well as some of the Bishops, etc. Yet he is not so to be understood, as if he said, that Bishops sell their father's lands, & buy others. For few of them buy, whatsoever they sell, and few may be compared herein to M. Cartwright, and his fellows. who under pretence of refusing livings have by begging, and whining, and shifting, and compleyning of persecution enriched themselves & their children: while Bishops have hardly been able to bear the charge of their office and place. He also demandeth whether the Archbrshop; Quest. 13 of Canterbury should not rather be called Popes, then Primates. yet I trust he will not affirm it. he hath a little more honesty, as I think. He asketh further, whether Christ being before the Bishops, Quest. 17 and should answer as Bambridge and johnson did, should not be committed. yet I hope he is not so blasphemous a wretch, as to compare Christ with such fellows; or so lewd, as to say that he should be convented, or committed. another question is likewise demanded, Quest. 22 whether ordinaries have not contrived, promulgated, and published articles (he meaneth orders) in their own name, without her majesties assent. yet I doubt, whether he will stand to affirm so much. He asketh whether Ecclesiastical judges are not in the Praemunire, Quest. 27. & 34. yet dare he not avouch it. Like wise the distracted Abstractor doth frame many odious interrogatories, which albeit he be, as they say, a mad fellow, yet he will not affirm, neither I hope will M. Cartwright make affirmations of them. He asketh whether the Bishops have not made unle arned and criminous ministers, and suffered them to continue all her majesties reign. And, whether the Archbishop have not dispensed contrary to God's word, and may exercise absolute authority, and whether the Archbishop being an excommunicate and simoniacal person may resort to the Pope for absolution. Yet I think the man hath more shame and modesty then to affirm any such matter. Is it not then a matter very ridiculous, that M. Cartwright will have questions to be affirmations? Beside that, it is very dangerous to his faction, that hath moved so many dangerous questions. but to affirm that a question doth more strongly avow then an affirmation, as doth M. Cartwr. is most strange and absurd. Neither do I so reason against the petitioner, as if every word of his questions were by him averred and affirmed, but first because his questions are for the most part grounded upon matters of Law, of which every one is to take notice; Next for that he doth not only make a question, but also declare his own opinion. As for example, one of his questions is this. Quaere of Matth, Quest. 10 Sutcliffe, etc. why M. Cartwright may not sell the lands he had from his father, and buy other with the money, as well as some of the Bishops, who by bribery, simony, extortion, racking of rents, wasting of woods and such like stratagems wax rich, and purchase great Lordships for their posterity. Beside this in other places he hath fufficiently declared his meaning. as for my case it is quite contrary, I speak of matters of fact, wherein I am ignorant, and desire to be resolved, and yet M. Cartwright will do me no favour, and disdeineth out of his high throne of the eldership to speak to me a poor Christian, desirous to learn of his worship. Well therefore doth he to add, that sometime a question doth more strongly avow, than an affirmation. for it is some what to much to say, that it doth so at all times: and not true that it doth so at any time. But were it true, yet should he win nothing but discredit, to reason thus of particulars. for although sometime M. Cartwright doth say well, yet he doth not so always. But suppose that indeed I had signified, that M. Cart had purchased lands, and bought leases more in value, than 3. or 4. good lordships: yet should it be no slander. and that first, because it is true. and next because it is no dishonesty to purchase, or provide by honest courses for his wife and children. The first appeareth by these particulars. he confesseth that he hath bought the manor of Saxemundeham, the moiety whereof is worth about 30. li. yearly. now he knoweth there be divers manors that are not 5. li. rent. Secondly he cannot deny, but he with one Flood had two leases of M. Morgan worth 200. marks, as both M. Fludde and M. Morgan and others will justify. He had also his brother's lands tied for his annuity, which since that he hath sold as is said for a great sum. Let him therefore tell us what he hath done with his money and all that he hath gotten since. for either must it be employed in lands, or leases, or some trade, or else at use. but this he denseth, and I think he useth no trade, and therefore that remaineth. Beside that M. Cartwright hath large contributions, and gifts, and cannot choose but win well by his Hospital. What is then become of all he hath gotten? Hath he spent it in alms? he is none of those that meaneth to merit by alms deeds. Hath he spent it in hospitality? nay he commonly feedeth at other men's trenchers. Doth he spend it in servants? he keepeth few or none, and that the rather to move men to give largely. His apparel is not costly. At London he spendeth nothing in Inns. What then remaineth, but that his money should go to increase his revenues? for I know none so uncharitable as to think that he hideth his talents in a napkin. But saith he, he hath gained little by the Hospital, save travel and charge. for the Hospital oweth him forty marks. as if it were not an easy matter to gain well, and by claiming large allowances when he spent little to make the Hospital indebted to him. Again he saith, that he hath sold away the two leases in Welborne and his annuity. as if so be he had not money for them. and I trust his conscience would not suffer him to be a loser by them. For having paid 420. li. for Morgan's leases, he and his fellow had 600. pound again. a small gain when you deal with men of good clean consciences. Further he saith, that he hath no lands in Norfolk nor Warwikshire. yet in the section next before he confesseth, that he had lands of his brother Stubbes bound for his annuity, and who will believe, but that he hath employed the money that came of the annuity and leases that he sold, or else hath some others to do it for him, either to his own use, or to his wives or children's uses? and all this, albeit I desire not to be acquainted with his estate, I have by certain intelligence understood. M. Cartwright saith that in a certeme book (he knoweth not where) I promise to be a surveyor or auditor of his and others lands. but unless he can show the place, we must record it as untruth. And in the mean while we take him for a man that speaketh he knoweth not what, and that is written he remembreth not where. By this which is confessed, and I have learned, it appeareth that if I had said, that his revenues are more than some 3. or 4. Lordships, yet the untruth had not been such as is pretended. for you see what is confessed, and what is more, every man may conjecture. But in deed I do not say so much, but doubting of the matter, because of the uncertainty of men's reports, I only asked the question, wondering in deed, how of so little beginnings he could arise to such wealth, and not believing, that such a simple ferme as Waddon is, and the fermes are in that country (albeit the number of acres were so great, as he affirmeth, and I do not believe) and which (I doubt not) was spentmost during his abode in Cambridge, and in his travel, could be sold for a fift part of that money, which now he is worth in lands and goods. I need not therefore to make an excuse, as being herein abused by others; neither did I: although M. Cartwright very untruly saith, I did so. and therefore referreth it to judgement again, how it standeth with my credit to report whatsoever I he are by report. to whom I answer, that this maketh little for his credit to speak untruth, and to forge matters never said, nor thought. let him show first where I excuse myself by report. next where I report whatfoever I hear of others. and lastly, that these matters against him stand upon report only; and are utterly false. if not, then whether he be minister or not (which justly may be doubted) he must understand, that he hath done me wrong. and if he be a minister, that he hath taught falsely, and charged me untruly, and is far more at ease then his fellow ministers, which hath gotten so great wealth, and is at so little charge. To the second point of his charge I answer, that I never said, that he hath gotten three or four manours by the spoil of his hospital. why then doth he charge me with so saying? is this the sincerity of the doctors of discipline to exclaim upon men for slanders, and yet not to be able to show any good matter, but such as they forge themselves? that I never said so, what proof need I, but that he doth not in one word go about to answer any such thing? Beside this look my books, there will no such matter be found. Indeed I may say that the stipend of his Hospital being toward 50. li. is a good help to him, and I say that the law presumeth that he hath gotten most part of his wealth by his Hospital. and that is true, as appeareth by the council of 1 c. Inquirendum de peculio cleric. Rheims, and 2 c. si quu sane. codem. Toledo, and divers other 3 doctores in c. investigandum codem. canons, that hold that the wealth of priests cometh by the Church livings. and yet that it is so in his case, I will not directly affirm considering the great gifts he was wont to have by those of his side. But now that simple fools do cease offering to this saints shrine, and that the idolatry and superstition thereof is discovered, it seemeth, he is much offended. The third point is easily cleared. for if he were never charged with spoiling his Hospital, as himself afraid of some shadow that troubleth his conscience doth surmise: how can he be said to be therein slandered? That in his purchases he is not slandered, it doth appear by that which is said before. And this may be enough, and percase to much for my clearing touching this matter. for what pertaineth it to me, what M. Cartwright hath purchased, and how? only thus much it maketh for the cause, that M. Cartwright having attained to so great wealth and living, by what means few men know; he hath no reason to compleine of persecution, or to exclaim and cry out against the livings of the clergy, and to offer them as it were a pray to those ravinors, that would help to advance his strange novelties. Neither (I think) will he do so any more, nay now he hath much a do to hide what he hath gotten himself, and would gladly if he might go clear away with it: and cannot well do it, unless we believe his bare word, which is less than a bare report, which notwithstanding he little esteemeth. That he cannot thus clearly carry away the matter, his own suspicious answer showeth. he doth not tell us when he sold his father's farm, nor what he had for it. neither dare he declare what he paid for Saxemundham manor, nor whether M. johnson that enjoyeth the moiety of the domains paid him any consideration. He doth likewise conceal from us, what money M. Stubbes had for his annuity, and what the money was he ought him. Likewise he telleth us not, what he gave with his daughter Mary, nor what he meaneth to give with his other daughters. He doth not tell us what M. Morgan had of him for his leases, nor what money he had back from M. Morgan. neither doth he set down his stipend of his Hospital, nor what money he hath leaned to M. I. Throkmorton, nor what corn, or other things he hath had of him; nor any particulars whereby it may appear, that all his wealth may rise out of his father's farm, his wives portion, and his Hospital. Nor dare he show what sheep and cattle he hath, nor what his wife hath got by making mair. who can therefore believe otherwise, then that he hath more than he dare make show of, or that he hath less, than I supposed he had? if he will yet say otherwise, then let him answer to these points directly, and I will myself acquit him, if he can discharge himself. If he dare not, let him not henceforth say any more that I have slandered him. ¶ M. Cartwrights' answer concerning the employment of his money. What store of money I have, I 1 Yet despise not poor men, not exclaim against the supposed tiches of the clergy. am not bound to give M. Sutcliffe account. what skill I have to make use of it, may partly appear by the leases of M. 2 Rather by his confession, and outcry against your dealings. Morgan. and now it will further appear by my dealing with M. Francis Michael. Where first, as before he would 3 I do not so make him, nor shut out the other. but he may have interest notwithstanding any speech of mine. make me alone the owner of the two leases, shutting out the principal dealer: so here for the end before rehearsed, be maketh me M. Michel's creditor for 300. pound, whereas the recognisance he forfeited 4 Such packing I see is usual with these men. was to my friend, and not to me, and his principal debt was only 200. pound, and not 300. pound. Now when the day of payment approached, he came to me in the Fleet, and offered me interest to for bear, which I 5 But your friend would not. utterly refusing, did notwithstanding at his earnest suit and compleint of his distress yield to forbear the debt, and gave him a writing of my hand to this effect, that I was 6 But his friend perhaps would have the forfeit or interest. for mine own part, content to forbear him with these conditions, first that my grant should not be hurtful to my 7 Viz. His factor for usury as it seemeth. friend not then in town, and secondly that it should not be prejudicial to the principal sum of 200. pound. and whereas he saith in the margin, that he will prove this 1 I say no such matter. but speak only of the note, which in effect is not denied. interest by showing the note of mine own hand, let him show the note, and let him shame either me or himself. And if that be not sufficient to clear my 2 It consisteth not in these petit toys. righteousness in this cause, I appeal to his own father M. 3 He can say far more than I have alleged, if he list. Michael, who was privy to the whole course of our dealing with his son. and we are so far from taking 4 Because where it is not, it cannot be had. interest of him, that to this day being about five years at the least, since the money was due, we have not received so much, as the principal which we only demanded of him, although we had sued out the forfeiture of his recognisance. And touching the matter of interest, albeit I have always been of 5 What is your opinion against all antiquity? judgement for the lawfulness of it, so it be with such caution as charity (the rule of dealing with our neighbour) be not 6 How can that be, when we should lend without usury? broken: yet in the time of my greatest necessity, when I was beyond the sea, I receiving assurance only for the 7 Is it bare that cometh without interest? bare money I left in the hands of my friends, did mever 8 But had you not after 10. in the hundred? covenant with them for the value of one penny; but was content with what soever they themselves of their own accord did allow, whether any thing or 9 That your friends did doubt of and therefore gave you largely. nothing, Which dealing allowed of those that are the most bitter adver saries of interest, M. Sutcliffe may think with himself, how untruly he dealeth with me in his 10 I charge him no further ●he●●is own writing chargeth him. accusation of double usance. In the margin over this word note lin. penult, these words are set: here M. Sutcliffe is put to the jump of a piece of his credit. Matth. Sutcliffe. Upon sight of a certain note drawn out of the original of M. Cartwrights' hand, I do collect by that which merchants say, that he meant to have double usance, I do not charge him with it. only I affirm, that merchants say he had double usance. why then doth he charge me untruly? beside that, why doth he not clear himself, if he account it a slander? that he can not do it, it is too too manifest. for first he alloweth usury, & next answereth this note of his own simply: and thirdly he may be convicted by witnesses. I have (saith he) been always of judgement for the lawfulness of interest. wherein he showeth himself to have small judgement, not being able to distinguish interest, that is in all contracts so much as concerneth a man's profit or loss, from usury that is in lone of money: and secondly, allowing usury contrary to all divinity, law, and reason. neither doth his exception avail him. for vulesse charity be in 1 Quid foeverari? quid hominem occidere? Cato apud Cic. off. li b. 3. cutting of throats, charity is not in usury, but in lending freely. the note doth testify that he forbore his money so justly two months which merchants in their exchanges observe, that he is vehemently to be suspected for receiving double usance, M. Morgan much complained, that he was eaten up with usury. and M. Michael, if he were called upon his oath, would say this money of M. Cartwright did him no good. Besides usury there appear divers bad practices in M. Cartwrights' dealings. first it is no sign of honest meaning, to make bonds to a third person, it argueth that he meant to have that, which he was ashamed to take. beside it is no good course to entangle young men in bonds, their father's being yet living. the 2 l. 1. ff. des. C. Macedonian. Romanelawes make such bonds void. neither doth it any whit relieve him, that he saith, he hath not yet his principal. for usurers oft times lose all. whatsoever M. Cartwright had, he meant to have large allowance. for he had judgement for the forfeiture. thirdly, nothing would content M. Cartwright but a recognisance, to show that he meant to have land for money. But sayeth he, what use I can make of money, appeareth by the lease of M. Morgan. 3 In the written copy which M. Cartwright himself gave out, it is 14. li. 10.5. but because it is too much to take so much for 100 li. he taketh his pen, setting down 12. li. 10. s. confuting himself with his own hand, & making no conscience to tell untruth, and therefore his bare word is nothing: at the most, it is but bare proof. true. for M. Morgan did grealy complain of your hard dealing, the same also appeareth by the note made to M. Michael, yea and by the man's testimony. but nothing maketh the same more evident, than the dealing with M. Stubs, for to take an annuity of 12. li. 10. s. yearly for one hundred pound (as it seemed you did, and must confess, if you will tell what money he had of you) and afterward to release the annuity for an hundred pound, is nothing but to take 12. li. 10. s. yearly for the use of an hundred pound. Likewise he that delivereth out two or three hundred pound, or such a sum of money upon a lease, and afterward releaseth his bargain for his money again, and percase half so much more, cannot escape the note of a biting usurer. how near this was to M. Morgan's case, I report me to M. Cartwrights' conscience, and M. Floods and Morgan's testimony, which must needs testify that for 420. li. they received 600. li. He saith further, that the recognisance wherein M. Michael stood bound to his friend was but for 200. li. yet the copy of the note which was under M. Cartwrights' hand doth mention 300. li. but M. Cartwright hath gotten the original into his hands, and so presumeth to say what he list. but first the writer shall testify against him, and next his own conscience. but saith he, let him show me the note, thereby either to shame him, or myself. and in the margin it is said, that I am put to the jump of a piece of my credit. as if it were not sufficient that there was such a note. or as if my credit depended on such patched notes. will M. Cartw. say on his credit that there never was such a note, and that it was only for 200. li. he will not, I am assured, & therefore what need solemn proofs where the matter in question cannot be denied? He allegeth also, that he cannot yet have his money of M. Michael, which is the case of many that lend for interest, and abridgeth the suspicion of usury nothing. Lastly, to show his good dealing, he saith, he had nothing for his money, but what his friends voluntarily gave. but that he doth not specify, neither doth he show whether he expected the same or not. which if he did would convince him of mental usury, all this defence therefore is defective. for neither doth he allege matter sufficient for his discharge, nor bringeth any other proof, than his own single and bare word, which I believe no more, than I believe M. Throk. word if he should be examined at the bar, and plead not guilty. he that is charged can do no less than deny, but where be his witnesses? where be the proofs? Thus you have heard M. Cartwrights' defence of himself in matters needless, if he could have contented himself; wherein albeit he would blot others, and clear himself, yet all falleth out against him, and maketh for his adversary, it may be M. Cartwright will think otherwise, and reply, but if he purpose to salve his credit, let him no more forge and devise matters on his own head, and as he pleaseth himself, but let him deal plainly, and set down my words as I wrote them, not as himself wresteth them, and then I doubt not, but his own eyes will see, and his own confcience condemn his own errors. all the worst I desire him is, that he may see them, acknowledge them, and amend them, if he will not amend them, yet let him make an end of these foolish challenges, that will be accepted, (he may assure himself) much to his hurt, and prejudice. if he will make no end of quarreling, let him not complain, if his follies be laid open to the world. and if he will needs write, let him leave these trifling controversies, and employ his wit, and labour in the common cause. if he will both quarrel and trifle; I can not for my part, but be sorry to deal with so quarrelsome and trifling an adversary: and his friends lament, that he hath fallen on such a base and worthless argument. only I. Throkm. percase will take pleasure in these courses, and furnish him with store of prefaces, such as is set before this brief: but he had better consult with wifer heads, and take an other course. it may be he will not hear me: I will therefore forbear to urge him further, & commend him to God, and leave him to the counsel of his best friends. ¶ Escapes amend thus. Fol. 3.2. line 27. read, clear you? fol. 4. b. line 15. read, particularly? fol. 7.2. line 32. read seemeth to be. fol. 17. a. line 35. read, unchristian dealing? fol. 17. b. annot. 1. grimace, fol. 20. b. annor. 3. read, are ye? fol. 23. a. line 35. read definitive.