THE True Copy of two Letters, with their several Answers, containing the late Apostasy of the Earl of Lavall, after his return from Italy. Wherein the principal points in controversy with the Papists, are learnedly and fully confuted, By D. TILENUS. Faithfully translated by D. D. S. LONDON, Printed by Simon Stafford, for Nathanael Butter, and are to be sold at his shop in Paul's Churchyard, near S. Austin's Gate. 1605. To the most Christian and mighty Monarch, James, by the grace of God, King of great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the true, ancient, and Catholic Faith. MOst mighty and renowned King, behold, I offer to your Majesty these unexpected and untimeous letters, wherein the fine and pure gold of Saba, is mingled with the old and corrupt dross of Egypt, to be tried by the divine touchstone of your sacred wisdom, persuading myself, that the reading of them shall not be so picasant to your majesties ears, as the discontentment, in beholding the sudden fall, and miserable Apostasy of so great a parsonage, and of my knowledge, so greatly devoted to your majesties service: besides that great hope and expectation, which was had throughout all France of him, to be (one day) a help and comfort to Christ's true Church there. I may here very well compare him to the folly of the Lark, which, while it plays with the feather, and stoopeth, is caught in the Fowler's net: so he, dallying in his youth & prime of years, being deceived by the beautiful feathers & glasses of pleasant Italy, was caught by the charming enticements of those Antichristian Vipers, with whose venom being once stung, hard was it to find such medicine, for the cure of so dangerous a disease: not doubting in this mean time, but as your Majesty would be glad to hear of his healing and rising again to the embracing of the truth, from whence he fell: so likewise on the other part, I am fully persuaded, that your majesties wont care shall continue in this your new Monarchy, that no person of any quality and mark hereafter, shall be licensed to travel, especially to Spain & Italy (places most dangerous for practising of treasons, & betraying of their own souls; yea, the lives of their own Kings and countries) but with such a strict caveat, that if they continue not constant in the profession of the truth, wherein they have been taught, that at their return, They shall expect the rigour of your laws, to be executed against them more severely than heretofore have been, lest by their oversight and daily increase, they may not only endanger Christ's Church in your dominions, but also your majesties person & state, which God forbid should ever come to pass in this our age, or in any other following. I crave humble pardon, that remembers other men's matters to your Majesty, in forgetting myself; for charity should begin at herself, praying in all submission, that this small mite of mine may be received with that accustomed favour (which sometime I enjoyed more liberally,) as your Majesty useth to accept the rich treasures of others daily offered to your Majesty, and this to be but the earnest of a better work to follow, and a remembrance of my dutiful affection, humbly submitting myself, and this my rude Translation, to the royal & most learned censure of your Majesty, who can far better judge thereof, than I have delivered it. I make an end, beseeching the Almighty King of Kings, long to preserve your majesties life, & to prosper all your good actions and godly enterprises, to his glory, to the comfort and good of the Church and Commonwealth. Your majesties most humble and loyal Servant, D. D. S. The Translator NO man (Christian Reader) can serve two masters, saith our Saviour Christ; for the comfort that is of God is sweet and delectable: but this is not for all men, but for those only, which despise the vanities of this world. It is impossible to taste of God and his pleasures, & to love disordinately the things of this life. All men would enjoy gladly the sweet conversation of our Lord; but few there be that will forego their own worldly desires, and willingly despise their earthly contentments: they desire greatly to have the inward comfort of the soul; but withal, they desire to satisfy their own extraordinary lusts and appetites. This may well appear in the Apostasy of this Noble man, very godly & carefully brought up in his tender years in the true Religion, who casting off all true fear of God, love of true Religion, and the great honour & commendations that his house & predecessors had, for professing & maintaining the same against the enemies thereof, suffering himself in the prime of his years, with pride and prejudice, two of his chief guides into Italy, to be bereft of that precious & inestimable pearl of Christ's verity: for pride insinuating herself, crept into his soul (a most dangerous guest) & taking once possession, is very hard to be expelled again. Prejudice on the other part, so great an enemy to the truth, that it makes the mind uncapable of it; for if in his heart he had laid a sure ground, all his enemies had not shaken it, much less over thrown his Religion. Ye see, be loved, what it is to serve two masters, as he would have done. I compare him unto those, who kindles a fire under green wood, and leaves it so soon as it begins to flame, leaving off a good beginning, for want of seconding it with a suitable proceeding: but rather lazily & cowardly being overcome with the pleasures of the country, and the curiosity of his young and vain conceits, forgetting the service of God, wherein he had lived before, betook him to the service of Antichrist, & withdrew himself, as with a discontented mind, from the company of his chief Governor, both grave, wise, and godly, giving himself over to the company of those devouring Serpents, who never left him, until he was brought into the endless Labyrinth of their superstitious Idolatry, & made his soul drunk with the new wine of the cup of the Beast. I beseech you therefore, all that love your own salvation, to take here your example, and eschew the company of the ungodly & wicked, but especially such, as in the habits of simple Lambs, come secretly as Wolves, to infect and devour your souls, under the pretence of holiness and devotion: and so I bid you farewell. The Translator to D. Tilenus, his ancient acquaintance, the Author hereof. THou true TILENUS to thy Lord LAVALL, And faithful Teacher of his tender years, Thy learning great, and piety appears, By divine answers to repair his fall: Thy truth doth shine, his untruth to deface. Thy heavenly dew distilleth from above, To heal his soul, whom thou so dear didst love, And leadeth him the way to saving grace: But if so be thy counsel he neglect, Yet thousand eyes shall read thy leaves and lindes, And shall be scanned by a thousand minds, With endless praise thy Trophies to erect: Where your great fame, and his disgrace shall stand, Enrolled far ever with a britains hand. D. D. S. The Advertisement of the Author to the Christian Reader. CVriosity and pleasure are two dangerous diseases, and every one apart, is strong enough to overcome his patient: how much more, while being both together, they conjoin to assail him, as it were, agreeing both by the body and the soul; the one engendering himself within the spirit, the other within the flesh, each of them consuming and destroying the parts that breed it; even as the Worm destroyeth the Apple, the Viper, her mother: They symbolise in many things, and as two sisterlike twins, they attire themselves with one self same habit; the definition of the one, not much disagreeing from the nature of the other: So that to this end an ancient Father said, That Adultery was nothing else, but a curiosity of an other man's pleasure; the one alienating the spirit of the patient from the knowledge of salvation, and causing him to take appetite to those things, whereof the ignorance is wisdom, and the practice damnable, maketh him the disciple of the father of lies, subject to the Prince of darkness, the first inventor of those mysteries of hell: the other changeth his body, which ought to be the member of jesus Christ, the temple of the holy Ghost, into the member of an harlot, and habitation of unclean spirits: both of them be bad, very fit to corrupt youth, to seduce it to the stews of Antichrist, where there is somewhat to please both those enticing humours: for what doth more resemble the curiosity of Magic, than the charms of hallowed Agnus Dei, of the Transubstantiation? to the characters of Soccrers, than the marks of the beast, deciphered in the book of Revelation? A great part of this devilish Art bewrayeth itself by auricular confession, imitating the form of interrogatories, registered in the decrees of Buchart, Bishop of Lib. 9 cap. 5●. Worms. As touching the pleasure of the flesh, where may a man find the exercise more free, the excess more enormous, then within the great Babylon, where the bodily lust hath no less sway, than the spiritual: Where have been invented these sacred Canons, which do not only with the Council of Toledo, Dist. 3. C. 4. Is qui non habet Caus. 12. q. 1. c. dilectissionis. permit concubines, but also command and ordain the community of wives with Plato, and of goods with the Anabaptists? Behold these two rocks, which, as well as ambition & covetousness, overwhelm the faith of many by lamentable shipwreck. This is the course, wherein lately the Earl of Laual overthrew himself, to the great grief of those, who hoped he would one day succeed to the piety and virtue of his predecessors: but these qualities are gifts personal, not hereditary, as the name & temporal goods. After that he had languished a long time in these diseases, possessing both his spirit & his flesh, there was also marked in him divers symptoms and signs of an evil success; and among other things, was perceived a fact direct contrary to that which S. Luke describes: for having past to change the air in Italy, a country which is not thought very good for those persons that be most Act. 19 19 wholesome and whole, he did not refuse all kind of pleasures for his body; & beside, made provision of mortal receipts for his soul, buying at a high rate, writings, like to those, which the disciples of the Apostles cast into the fire, notwithstanding they were of great value, so soon as they did embrace the christian faith at Ephesus: by which purchase, he declared very well, to be more disposed to take place in the Temple of the great Diana of the Papists, them to have preserved that wherewith it pleased God to have honoured him in his true Church, who condemneth those detestable curiosities: and in the end, the Apostem beginning to grow & gorge forth the venom contained in these his two letters, in which he propoundeth divers questions, not so much as to receive light of his doubts, wherein such diseases had ta'en away both his desire & understanding: but because after a just refusal of a verbal conference made unto his unjust demands, being addressed to those who understood that resolution which he had already taken, he had need them of some other mask to end the Catastrophe of his Tragedy, instead of extreme unction, & funeral preparations of his religion dead in his soul long time before, dissembling in the mean time this spiritual death toward these, who did their endeavour for his preservation, as appears in matters of estate, who conceal, for certain days, the death of their great Princes: but seeing he could not so well counterfeit the voice of jacob, but that the hands of Esau did discover him: neither was he able himself to support any longer the pestilent smell which his neutrality did breath forth among the living & the dead, betwixt the preaching of the Gospel, & the Idolatrous mass, but that he was forced to discover his mask. And having transported himself to the Covent of the Capucians in Paris, he burted solemnly his religion, accompanied with many exorcisms, abjurations, confessions, pentiencies, and such ceremonies: which did serve him no less to his obsequys, than did the desperate painting & attiRes to jesabel, which she did take in the instant hour she was to be cast Forth of the window to break her neck. They had great desire to adorn the lamentable pomp of the poor young Earl, by some pray, which they thought to have caught on our professors: and to this effect, after the refusal of the verbal conference which he demanded, the jesuits had persuaded him to advise in that same instant upon the said doubts, with divers persons in divers places, hoping that in diversity of style, they might encounter certain differences of believing in those that should answer: but not finding one just subject on our part, to fall in any such inconvenience, but rather to alienate him from the wickedness of the corrupters of his youth: We supposed nothing should divert us from putting to light, the objections made on the one part, & the answers given on the other side; to the end, that conFerring the one with the other, every one who hath eyes to see, may understand, that those which will not know that which is, should imagine to themselves, to see that which they see not; which be the two kinds of blindness, wherewith God by his just judgement doth punish those that forsake the spirit for the flesh, the truth for vanity; the light for darkness, the Saviour of the world, for the son of perdition: nevertheless, we hope, God willing, that those, who have not much edified Christ's Church by their life, shall far less ruin the same by their death, seeing that their voluntary separation from our communion, doth no other thing then ease us from the necessary trouble of cutting them off from our society; no more than the wind, which driveth away the chaff in the air, easing them which in the mean time are about to cleanse the floor. Farewell. The first letter of the Earl of Lavall, to his master D. Telenus. SIR, I am to render you exceeding great thanks, for the receiving in so good part, the news of my return: but if any other hath noted the contrary in you, that hath been against my intention & meaning, who have nothing in more respect, then to serve you, and not in any sort to offend you. These fair instructions which pleased you to give me, have brought into me a great joy and contentment, imagining with myself, that they have proceeded from a person of such learning, as you be; and that bear me such good will, as to love me: the one, known to the whole world, the other believed of me with a great satisfaction. But this discourse, which it hath pleased you to propound, touching the manifest difference of 2. Religions, hath moved in me a desire to learn more of you, who hath left in me such a taste, that I desire rather to make the demands of an ignorant, then to be made wise in any thing by your answer. I will rather entreat you to instruct me in the controversies, then to strengthen me in my belief. And first, to show me, if the visible Church hath remained any space of time in her purity, and how long? or if she hath everso remained; or if she hath had only that quality of purity since Calvin's time? Secondly, if ye hold for constant and firm, the heads of Religion, that were debated & resolved upon, in the sour first general Councils? Thirdly, if the calling or sending be necessary to Ministers, and of whom had Calvin it? Fourthly, if the sacred Scriptures interpret them, than every one is capable for the understanding thereof. Fiftly, all the Heresies that have been confuted, do we not hold them justly and well overthrown? Sixtly, if we receive the Fathers as witnesses only of matters of their time, and as Historiographers, or not? Seventhly, if the invocation of Saints be evil, because it steals away the honour, which is due unto God: or if it be superfluous and to no purpose, because they understand us not? eightly, if all bodies be circumscribed or not? I pray you now, not to answer so subtly, that I cannot understand you, lest perhaps, you may distrust, that some other, and not myself have made them: as you may judge, that the order and the style cannot proceed but from such an ignorant person as I: so also, the subject and matter is conceived in my spirit, by writing of that, to which, for the most part, there is need of no other answer, but your nay. I crave your pardon for disturbing you from your grave and weighty affairs, to learn me the A. B. C. and am, and shall be more than any person, Your most affectionate and bound disciple, to serve you, LAVALL. D. Telenus Answer to the Earl of Lavalls first Letter. SIR, I praise God with my whole heart, that in the end he hath put in your mind, this just & right resolution, as to keep one ear for the truth, the which being in this world, as in a strange & for rain country, or as it were imprisoned by the father of lies, encounters more enemies that accuse her, then of advocates that defend her. I know her accusations by those questions, which it hath pleased you to demand of me: your modesty requires, that I receive them, as from the part of an ignorant: but it is a long time since I learned, that the most profound Doctors of Sorbon could not bring forth more better, nor more beautiful. Nevertheless, I rejoice to behold you to take on the quality of a disciple, that binds your conscience to delay all revolting at least, until that time, that sure knowledge shall teach you both the reason & the ground thereof: but I beseech you to pardon me, if my answers surpass a little the limits of yea and nay, which your letter hath prescribed me, considering, that there requireth a little more time to draw a stone out of a pit, then in casting of it in; and that the centre & the circumference of an answer, well made, is not only so much the will of him that makes, the demand, but principally the need he hath to know & understand it. Also I persuade myself, that ye understand not the name of disciple after the manner of the pythagoreans, that allege for all reasons & answers, the yea and the nay of their master: a style, which for the present is not fitting but to the disciples of the Pope, of whom only selfewil holds the place of all reason & authority. And although you desire to be rather instructed in the controversies, then fortified in your belief: and that you perceiving so clearly, that such answers, upon doubtful and intricate questions, should serve merely all, either for the one, or for the other, and would increase in you, rather the number of your doubts, then lighten the darkness of your ignorance, by the light of that same knowledge, which consisteth not in the simple affirmation or negation, but in solid and necessary demonstration. Such was the opinion of S. Austen praising Nebridius, which hated greatly a short answer to a great question, judging him that knew not how many things might and ought thereupon be spoken, was not worthy to have propounded them. And since that the almighty God would not permit that I should remain near your person, until that time, that your age should be more capable of more exact instructions: I thought, notwithstanding my far absence, I was bound to repair that breach, that in taking upon you the title of a disciple in your letter, you have honoured me in that, which sometime I enjoyed: and having not since changed any thing, except my dwelling, and not my affections to continue my service towards you, I should be thought unworthy of your good will and kindness, if I should content me, after the manner of Trumpets, to have given you courage by my former letter, without bringing now the help and succour, which you crave against the assaults of your doubts. The first Question, or rather doubt, which you demand of me, is this, If the Church visible hath remained any certain time in her purity, and how long? Or if she hath remained continually? Or whether she hath this purity since Calvin's time? To them then who assault you, and that make no other Buckler but of the Fathers, they shall suffer me to answer to this question by the mouth of Eusebius, or by Egysippus, who is more ancient than Eusebius; and very near to the age of the Apostles themselves, who says in his History ecclesiastical, that the Church hath remained virgin-pure, chaste, and whole, so long as the Apostles did live; and after the generation of those, who had heard that heavenly wisdom with their own ears, than error entered, and took possession within the Church: but to others that desire instruction, there is required a more particular answer, lest they should think, that we desire rather to cut the knots, then to lose them: I say then, that this purity is to be considered, either in regard of the doctrine, or good life; and that both the one and the other is in the Church, according to the condition and measure, which is assigned to her, during the space of her residence here on the earth: 2. Cor. 11. in the which estate, as touching her head, who is jesus Christ, she is ever pure; but not altogether pure in herself: for seeing every member of the same is subject to fail, as well in doctrine, as in life, and that we know her here but in part; the body which is composed of these members, cannot be Ephes. 4. 7. wholly pure and perfect: and to consider the body of the Church, without her members particular, whereof she is compound, were as much, as to transform her into an Idea Platonica, only the Prophets and Apostles, by a vocation, and special prerogative, and by an assistance and help immediate & extraordinary of the holy Spirit, were exempt and free of all error in the doctrine, the which in this respect, and by good reason, is the true and only rule of all purity: and according as the Church draws either near, or is far distant, the measure of her purity increaseth or decreaseth: and when she is called pure, that is, either in respect of her head, or in regard of a part thereof, which is received in the heavens, which they call the Church Triumphant; or, rather in regard of the end she aims at in this world; even so, as they call a house, an edifice, which is but yet in building, and before it be complete and ended. And like as the purity of the Church is subject to alteration; even so is her form or external behaviour, in respect whereof, they call it visible: for although she remain ever visible in herself, yet so is it, that she is not always visible to others, especially to those that have not the eyes which be requisite for the seeing of her; as the Sun itself is not to be seen by Heb. 18. 38. Apoc. 12. 14. Math. 2. 13. a blind man: and the Almighty, for the preserving of her from her persecutors, retired her sometimes to the wilderness, to secret caves and dens, even as he did withdraw his Son Christ jesus into Egypt, to preserve him from the rage of Herode: And then she became invisible, but not to God, neither to herself, but only to the eyes and judgement of the blind world. I say then, that the Church militant hath ever retained that measure of purity, which the holy Ghost hath communicated to her, not only since Calvin's time, but the Apostles days, even to us present this day: As also the said measure was much different & divers in sundry times & places, the which undoubtedly did move the ancient Fathers, to compare the Church unto the Moon, which showeth herself sometimes of more, otherwhiles of less light, as it were eclipsed, and hides herself altogether, as it were, from the world, without danger notwithstanding all this, either to be lost or scattered, as well appeared in the Church of Israel, in the time of Ely the Prophet, where there was a Church of seven thousand, that did not bow their knees to Baal, which was not perceived there externally. If your pretended teachers shall not grant unto me, that which heretofore is alleged, I shall cause them, by the authority of Bellarmine, to deny the purity of their own Roman Church, and after this manner I will prove it: The Church that may altogether be compounded of unfaithful persons, wicked and reprobates, can have, neither purity in her faith, nor in her life. But so it is, that the church so described by Bellarmine, may be wholly composed of such people: therefore she can have no kind of purity. The Assumption is proved and made clear in his book of the Church, in the last Bellar. li. 3. cap. 2. de eccl. Paragraph, where Bellarmine saith, that is the definition of the Church, according to the which, some be of the body, & not of the soul thereof, having no internal virtue, and being as it were, the hair, the nails, and corrupt humours of the body of man: and of such sort be the Infidels, wicked and reprobates, as Bellarmine himself expresseth them, who may make external profession of faith, communicate to the Sacraments, & subject themselves to the Pope, which be the 3. essential conditions and only necessaries according to this Cardinal, for to be in the Church. By the same Author, I will argue again after another manner. That which may be destitute of faith, hope and charity, cannot remain in purity, yea, rather may lose all. But the church according to Bellarmine, may be void of all those qualities: therefore she may lose all her purity. But if any shall reply, that Bellarmine adjoins, that the said virtues are to be found nevertheless in the Church. I ask, whether they be of the essence of the Church, or not? If the first, wherefore says he in his definition, that they be not necessary? But if the second, how can a Church without faith, hope and charity, be thought pure? Learn then (sir) by these two arguments, as by two marks, or rather ensigns, the purity of the place, where those people would lodge you: nevertheless, this is that Annal. tom. 6. an. 484. §. 4. & tom. 7 an. 530. §. 5. Church which Cardinal Baronius maintains and defends to have neither spot nor blemish. Whereas ye write & desire, that the time may be showed and marked, in the which errors and uncleanness have entered into the Church of Rome: surely, this discourse would prolong too much my letter, which you desire me to make short, & would importune more by her prolixity, than it should instruct you by her utility, more proper to a history then to doctrine. Is it enough, that a poor Hydropique should believe to be sick, & to have need of physic, when he is so swollen, that he is almost in danger to burst, although none can precisely mark & show him the hour when as his liver began to be consumed? Surely, while as the fire is in the house, the water within the ship, the enemies within the town, the Wolf within the fold, those that hope to prevent the danger, or rather to preserve them be more advised and circumspect, than those that will believe nothing, unless they show them at what time, & how that is come to pass, and who busies themselves in searching the causes & the beginnings. we know, that already in the days of the Apostles, the mystery of iniquity began to work 2. Thes. 27. Acts. 20. 2● itself, which S. Paul foretold, that after his departure, there should enter ravenous wolves among the flocks; & in that night, after the husbandman had sown the good seed, behold, the enemy also did sow the tars. Mat. 13. 25. Sur. tom. 1. die 8. jan. Bar. Tom. 9 Anno. 805. §. 3. The Antichrist was not begotten in one day. This Bear was not so soon licked, and put in form, as he of whom speaks Surius & the Cardinal Baronius, who of a wild beast, became a reasonable creature, made himself also Friar in that same instant, after he had prostrated himself before the relics of a certain Lady, and having beside entertained the Nuns of the Covent. The Romance Bear aught to be some other thing beside, than a simple shorn Monk. Your second demand is touching the 4. first general 2 Councils, to wit, If we hold for certain, that which was there treated and resolved? I answer, that those points concern either the doctrine, or policy of the Church: those than be collected in the Symbols, composed in the said Councils, and we hold them for true, so far as they are agreeing to the holy Scriptures. In this here we will use the liberty which Bellarmine takes, after the manner of Pope Gelasus, saying, That in the Council of Conc. Chal. de Laicis cap. 20. Praef. in lib. de Pontif. Chalcedon, there is something good, & something evil, and that we may receive the one, & refuse the other: and in another place he dispenseth with himself, to reprove in the same manner the Council of Constantinople, for having attempted somewhat, that did not please the Church of Rome. Behold then, how he handles these two of the first 4. general Councils: for the rest judge, if ye please, which is most reasonable, to submit themselves to the Councils, because the Pope doth approve them, who maintains himself to be above them; or because the Councils have submitted themselves to the word of GOD; the one, which is taught in the Church of Rome; the other, in our Church. The third question is, Concerning the sending of the Ministers, 3 if it be necessary for them, and of whom Calvin had it? I answer, that it is necessary; and that Calvin had it of the Church of Geneva, & of Farel his predecessor, who had also his of the people of Geneva, who had right and authority to institute & depose Ministers: for so declareth S. Cyprian, saying, that the people obeying to the Lib. 1. Epist. 4. commandments of God, should separate themselves from a wicked guide, and not to meddle with the sacrifices of any sacrilegious Priest, considering that the said people have chief authority to make choice of worthy persons, & to reject the unworthy. This was so practised by the people of Geneva, and in divers other parts of Europe, where in these latter times they did forsake those sacrilegious Priests, and sacrifices of the Pope, for to establish faithful Ministers & proclaimers of the gospel. And to be short, the reformed Churches had their calling & sending, partly from God, and partly from their people, and partly from the Church of Rome: from God, as the chief cause; from the people, as by lawful instrument. from the Church of Rome, as by a corrupt instrument. God gave the essence, and the form interior to this sending: the reformed Church gave the testimonies & approbations, and the exterior form: the Church of Rome hath added thereto, abuses and corruptions, which our succeeding Ministers have renounced. The fourth question is touching the interpretation 4 and understanding of the Scriptures, to wit, If every one be capable of the understanding of it, interpreting it by itself? I answer, that if by this capacity, ye mean a natural faculty of man, & by the understanding, a knowledge to salvation: so far off is it that every one is capable to the understanding thereof, or to purchase this intelligence by his study & travels: but rather herein all be naturally blind and foolish; and it is necessarily requisite, that which our Saviour Christ did to his Apostles, opening their understandings to conceive the Scriptures, should be done to all them, which desire to understand them wholesomely: for as the bodily light cannot be received, but by eyes corporal, that be open; even so, the spiritual light of the Scriptures cannot be seen, but by the spiritual eyes of faith, which God opens to his own elect, in giving them so much thereof, as is necessary for them to salvation: in doing whereof, he works oftentimes by degrees, as he did with the blind man, spoken of in the Gospel, whom he lightened by little. Whosoever Mark. 8. 24. be the meanest of the world, understand these passages, which defend the bowing down before Images: who command to give the cup of the Lord to all: which bear also, that this is the docttine of devils, for to forbid marriage, and the use of certain meats, etc. The Gospel is not hid but to those who perish, and whom the God of this world hath blinded. This 2. Cor. 4. 5. says S. Paul. The fifth demand is, touching the confuting of heresies, to wit, If that we hold them not for well and justly 5 Orat. 2. in Arrianos. 2. Tom. 3. 6. confuted. I answer, that these heresies refuted by the word of God, or as S. Athanasius saith, stoned by arguments taken out of the holy Scripture, are well & justly convinced: for this is one of the uses, wherefore it was given by heavenly inspiration; neither hold we that for refuted or overcome, which is only done by the witnesses of man, and by the authority of the Pope, who doth not condemn heresies, but in seeming to be an enemy to them, to the end the better he may establish his own: as did Zophyrus, that by such slights won Babylon. The most ordinary and common argument of the Pope, for to refute heresies, is by the faggot, & the hand of the hangman, according to the Logic of the Inquisition of Spain, and the practice of the Jesuits, their Apostles in the New found world, against the poor Pagans; notwithstanding that the scholastic divines maintain, that the Infideis ought not in any The 21. 9 O art. 8. case to beforced to receive the faith; yea, not after ye have overcome them in war, and made them slaves. But in this there appears to us yet one of the conformities of the pretended Vicar of jesus Christ, with his master the commission which the one gives to his Apostles, bears this; Go ye, teach all nations, etc. That which Mat. 28. the other gives to his, is, Go kill, massacre, poison all people, who will not obey me. Now follows the sixth question, Of the authority of 6 the Fathers. The opinion of the Church of Rome is divers upon this point. There be that hold, that all the writings of the Fathers be true and authentic, and it behoveth to maintain all their opinions to be true, even D●ft 9 C. voli meis. to the last jot. This is it which the gloss says up on the decree authentic in the Church of Rome, without teaching of us, how we may observe this ordinance, when the opinions of the Fathers be contrary one to another. The more modest & best advised says, they should be esteemed for Historians, and witnesses of matters of their time. We say, that in regard of the questions of right, that be in controversy, the Fathers 1 Cor. 13 9 have been, and should be esteemed for disciples of the truth, and not for Masters, knowing in a part, and prophesying in a part, and that they have not comprehended the whole truth, but only according to the measure of the grace of jesus Christ: we esteem them for Instruments of God, where they have spoken the Ephe. 4. 7. truth; but where they have a little erred, in going out of the right way, we cease not nevertheless to hold them for the children of God, believing that the heavenly Father hath covered their infirmities: neither do we despise the fair harvest of learning, that aboundeth in their writings, for certain cares of cockle, which are mingled with them: but we do hate those, who gather nothing but the Cockle and their errors, who defile and corrupt, as much as they may, by their Index expurgatorius, the good grain, which is there, who prefer their briars to their Roses, and in stead of concealing their own shame, kissed it, and caused it to be reverenced by the people. As for their testimonies in questions concerning the matter of fact, we accept them in things of their times, & that be of their knowledge, especially when it is well grounded and assured: for it shallbe proved, that they have mistaken themselves both in the one and in the other; and there is none, except the Prophets and the Apostles, to whom, by a special prerogative, pertaineth the condition of witness without reproof, Luk. 24. 48. Act. 1. 8 and free of exception. Otherwise, the writings of the Fathers, at least, those who write the History of their times, should be equal to the Canonical Scriptures. I report me herein to the testimony of that great Cardinal Annal. tom. 1. an. 34. An. 39 §. 22. Baronius, having spoken in one place, that the Catholic Church falls not at all times, nor in all things: yea, the holiest Fathers themselves say in another place, that the Acts of the Apostles written by S. Luke, merit more faith, than any authority of the Ancients; and in another place, that which the most true & sincerest writers have reported of the Apostles, hath not remained in her own integrity, without corruption. As touching The Invocation of Saints, your seventh question: I answer, It should be rejected in regard of both the two reasons alleged by yourself; to wit, as well, because it is sacrilege against God, as also, unprofitable for us: for to see, hear, understand, receive, & to hear the requests of all apart, all at one time, and in all times; this is a propriety belonging only to God, and his Son jesus Christ, from whom they steal his honour, & make the Saints to usurp his office, when one S. james, another S. Cloud, is called upon in one same time, in a thousand places, from the East to the West, of a million of persons, for thousand and thousands of divers things: also, when they believe that the Saints can understand, & are sufficient to satisfy & content every one. And by this you may perceive the abuses of the Jesuits, who persuade you, seeing it is permitted to ask the help of the living, that it cannot be prohibited to call upon the dead also, of whom we have as little certainty that they can hear us, as of commandment that we should reclaim them. Your last question, is, Of the circumscription of the body. To which I answer, that every true body is circumscribed; and to be a body and not to be circumscribed, that is to say, limited and bounded, imports contradiction: for if the dimensions be essentials to a body; and if it be necessary, that the dimensions be terminable, which was never yet denied, it follows then of necessity, that it is bounded and circumscribed: and if this necessity accompanieth all bodies in general, how much more, a human body, or body of man, which is not Mathematical, neither composed only of matter and of form; but which is organic, composed of unlike parts & of divers kinds? of which then follows, that those that take from him the circumscription, to the end, to lodge him in one time & instant in diverse places: and instead to amplify the power of God, destroys thereby both his verity & wisdom, his might and his Godhead altogether: His verity, in so much as he should have in him, yea & no: if that he might say of one self same body, that he is circumscribed, & not circumscribed; one, and none; organic, and not organic: His wisdom, because there would be disorder and confusion in his works: his power, because it should have imperfection, to wit, a human body, not having that, Didy. de Spirit. S. Virgil. cont. Sabel. etc. which made her to be so. To conclude his Godhead, because the creature finite should be equal to the Creator, who is only infinite; by the which argument, the Ancients foresaw the Deity of the holy Ghost: but if they will say, that the place is not of the essence of the body, & consequently, that the one may be without the other: it must be demanded, if the time is not as well out of the essence of the body, as a body may be then without time? Conclude so, should not this be without time & without sense: if they reply again, that the heaven, although a true body, yet it is not contained by any place, that environs it without. The answer is, that for all that it is not exempt of circumscription, being circumscribed by the limits of her proper greatness, & form inseparable from it: and even so, the bodies of the faithful, that while they shallbe transported above the heavens, which we see shall not be without their circumscriptions, although it be that an other body compass them bout, as the air doth us below, or that it be that nothing compass us. I believe ye have oftentimes heard this sentence of S. Austen, Take away the room from a body, August. ad Dard. and there shallbe then no part at all in them. We say with the said Father, that this circumscription agreeth with the body of our Lord, who is above clothed with heavenly glory, yet not spoiled of his human nature; neither can we read without horzor, that which the Pope commands to be believed in this point, to wit, That De consocrat. dist. 2. C. ego Bereng. he is handled by the hands of the Priests, torn and broken by the teeth of the faithful, sensually and carnally: Terms and speeches according to the Roman Church, must be taken precizely: for as Bellarmine teacheth us, there is no Bellar. de Imag. l. 2 cap. 22. form in speaking in the matter of faith more exact, than that which they use, who abjure an heresy: whereof follows, that this manner of speaking by Pope Nicholas to Berengare, for the abjuring of his pretended Heresy, admits not the gloss adjoined to the margin; that is to say, whosoever should take these terms by the meaning of the letter, should fall in heresy, worse than that of Barengarius. But what is this? says not your pretended teachers, with a high & clear voice, That the glorious body of our Lord may be eaten by a mouse, devoured by a dog. Then behold, I pray you, how they circumscribe it, environing & bounding it in the entrails of a filthy beast, which is the place and the lodging, which these honest Harbingers assign unto him. Behold, there is the fair Helen of their doctrine, with whom they would make you enamoured; shall you then receive for principles of faith, the barking of such Cerbres? You have here my answers unto your 8. demands, which you shall find more clear than subtle, more gentle than ingenious, more necessary than tedious: and if the desire of learning be as well graven in your heart, as it is represented in your letter, as a charitable Christian, I will believe you, not withstanding the assurance of your friends & servants, who in all parts publish & lament your revolt wholly resolved on. I shallbe very glad, that this written answer to your letter, may be communicated to those, whom ye esteem most capable for the examination thereof. I am not ignorant of their ordinary replies. Also I know for the overthrowing of them, it shall suffice to apply thereunto, the conclusions, which may be drawn from the principals, set down by me: and to do them a little, & a little by degrees, it would exceed the bounds of a letter, and your own ordinance and desire: but if there rests yet any doubt on these points, or others; & that the assurance which ye have of my particular affection to your service, and to your salvation, may make you desire the true light, rather by my pen, than by the mouth of some other more near unto you: I shall esteem it for singular great honour, the commandment which it shall please you to give me: for to God it is not acceptable, that I should esteem that voyage of Rome, or the air of the Court, or the vain hope of I wot not what, to have so changed that natural inclination, which I was wont in some other time heretofore to mark in you, that ye would enter into into a new Religion, traversing amids these mists of uncertain doubts & irresolutions, without any assurance in your spirit, of any received knowledge, with these remorses of conscience in your heart, with a brain full of doubts, which you say, to have grown in you, even while ye were writing unto me. Herein you would resemble the sun in March, which removes the humours, without bringing force to resolve them: or to do as those, whom curiosity makes to taste of a drug unknown, the effect whereof cannot be known but by their death. No, no, I cannot believe it; I know what a poor Pagan hath heretofore taught Cic 1. Off. you, that it behoveth never to undertake any thing, which is doubted to be just, because that justice shines of herself by the contrary; all doubts show that therein is evil: how much less then, those that have been learned in a better school, that whatsoever is done without Rom. 14. 13. faith, is sin? and would they resolve themselves without this certainty to alteration, where they go either to life, or to death eternal, if they have any remainder, I will not say of godliness and Religion, but of honour & courage? And hereupon I pray the Father of light, who illuminates the blind, who, when he pleaseth, joh. 11. 29. Mat. 13. 46. raises the dead, although they were dead four days, to open your eyes, to discern well that Pearl, which they would bereave you of, with the false and counterfeit dross which they offer to you in exchange, to open and pierce your ears, that you might discern the voice of the Shepherd, from the howling of the Wolf, and to touch your heart, for to arrest and stay you rather with his Son, who hath given his life for you, than to the son of perdition, who hath pursued the corporal death of your Predecessors, and now again conspireth and lieth in wait, by all the subtle practices and devices he can, for the spiritual death of your soul. Surely, this is our honour and profit, and not that of Gods, when as he speaketh to us, our shame & damage, not his, when as we disdain to hear him, he can better pass our shame, than we can his grace. But advise we ourselves, lest our contempt of his mercy kindle the just wrath of his anger making himself to be felt, by afflicting those, who in his speaking to them, rejected him. I cannot think without amazing (saith the Prophet David) Psa. 119 of the righteous judgement, which thou shalt cause, & the great fear, wherewith all my body trembles as it were. These be the verses which your father (now departed) of good memory, had oftentimes in his mouth, when as he heard speaking of such revolting from the Religion, as master Merlin your late master told me. God grant, that the remembrance of his death may help your life, in following that same verse, which this Psalm recommendeth to us. I beseech you excuse my boldness, and lay the reason on your own goodness, who hath given it to him, who fearing lest abusing of it in a danger so perilous, should be construed a kind of treason, not only by your faithful servants, and true friends, but also by yourself one day, when the truth, now smothered in your spirit by the deceive of Sophisters, shall raise itself, and according to his nature, shall obtain to swim above falsehood & untruth. This shall be at that time, when as appealing from yourself, to yourself, I remit & promise to myself, the right understanding of the public cause, with an acknowledgement of my particular zeal, and so have been, and with a will to remain Your most humble; and most faithful servant, D. TILENUS. The second letter of the Earl of Lavall, to his master D. Tilenus. SIR, I think myself very much bound to you, in that you have taken the pains and the care, to answer to the points, wherein I craved some light. You say to the first, which is of the purity of the church, that incontinent after the death of the Apostles, that it was corrupted: And Calvin refers himself to the Cal. lib. 4 sect. 3. ancient Church of S. Basil, S. Ambrose, S. Chrisostome, and S. Austen. This is in his book of Institutions, and Lord Du Plessis affirms the first eight hundred years, who was the first that gave me the occasion, to read the History of that age. In another point, touching the sending of the Ministers, you say that Farrel had it from the people: it behoveth then, that either the people there were catholics, or that they were instructed in the religion by some Doctor; & by consequence it is necessary, that a Doctor of the Religion proceeded the people of the Religion, & so without any sending or calling unless it was extraordinary, or else from the Church of Rome. You allege a passage of S. Cyprian, who says, the people obedient to God's Commandment, should separate themselves from a wicked guide, & not to meddle with a sacrilegious Priest. If ye receive after that meaning, where he says that the people may discharge their guide, that is to say, a Pastor: wherefore also receive ye him not in that which he says, that the Priest sacrifices, & that shows at least, that this was held certain in those days. Finally, for what defect or error was it of the reformed Church, that it behoveth, that her pastors should have their sending (as you say) in a part from the Church of Rome, as from an instrument corrupt? This is to do, as the Church of the Husseits in Germany, whereof all the Doctors for the most part, had their order of Priesthood from the Church of Rome, feigning to be thereof, at the least, as I heard it, of the greatest part of their own country people: but whether that be or not, it imports not much. Beside this, I demand you, the way of salvation being in all ages open, and our Saviour Christ having suffered for all them, who should apply unto themselves the merit of his death, what doctrine, I pray ye, held they that were the faithful, three or four hundred years since? And if you had been in that time there, in what Vessel had you put yourself, to have arrived to the port of safety? Touching the Testimony of the Fathers, you say, you accept of them, upon the questions of the fact of the things done in their time. Saint Austin saith, that he caused the Mass to be celebrated. This is a question of fact, and a thing done in his time. I abuse your patience, in detaining you so long, to read nothing that is worth your pains, and I demand you no farther, but to assure you, that I am more than any person Your most affectionate and bound Disciple to do you service, LAVALL. The second answer, of the second letter, written by Telenus to the Earl of Lavall. SIr, I perceive by that which it pleased you to write to me by the Gentleman coming to this place, that with my answer upon your honest demands, ye are satisfied with that which I have spoken concerning five of them, to wit, 1 Of the authority of the four general councils: the interpretation of the holy Scriptures: 2 the the refutation of Heresies. 3 The invocation of saints, 4 the circumscription of Bodies: 5 The doubts which remain, be concerning these three, 1 Of the purity of the Church. 2 The sending of the ministry. 3 Of the authority of the Fatherst. Touching the first, ye pretend contradiction, as appeareth in that which I have spoken, that the purity of the Church did not continue, but for the time of the Apostles, and whereas Calvin enlargeth it to continue three hundredth, and Lord du Plessis to eight hundredth years. I answer, if so be that ye consider rightly of my letter: ye shall find it is not I that pronounce the sentence, but Egesippus and after him, Eusebius and Nicephorus: and that my intention is to put that sentence in your hands, only to close the mouths of those who estourdissis & deaffes you with their stir of the Fathers: But for the chief point of the question, & for your instruction, I have answered, altogether otherwise, and largely enough, to the which ye reply nothing at all, the substance of my answer is, that the Church militant hath retained even to our time without interruption, the measure of purity which the holy Ghost hath given her: But to have reserved this pureness, it followeth not, that she hath conserved nothing which is not pure: or that the inventions of men, or the ordinances of the Popes do make part of the purity, no more than hydropsy makes part of the health of a man's body, although it be therein contained and enclosed. Even as the health of man's body consisteth not in a point indivisible, also neither maketh the purity of the mystical body of the Church militant, and compassed with her infirmities, as well the faith as in the life; & as they call a man whole, who nevertheless is not without some evil humours in his body, comparing him to a sick patient, fast tied to the bed, and consumed with the pocks. So do we call the Church, that was nearest to the Apostles pure, in regard of the ages following, in the which the mystery of iniquity was converted in the ministry, or rather into the kingdom of wickedness and Idolatry, the one and the other is a noisome humour in the body of the Church, but the one is in secret, and the other in public, the one in seed, and the other springing up, the one in the parts indifferents, the other in the noble parts: the one a scab, the other a spreading cancer, the one proceeding for lack of knowledge, in those who were come from heathen custom, the other in lack of conscience in them, who would from Christianisme, bring us to Paganism, Epicurism and Atheism. Touching that which I have answered to your demand, concerning the calling of the ministery, and especially of farrel, who had it of the people, sufficiently authorized to give him the same, according to the testimony of S. Cyprian. You answer two things First, that it is necessary that a Doctor of the religion 1 go before a people of the religion, for to teach them. 2. the second that by the testimony which I allege, forth of the said Father, it appeareth, that in those times the Priests sacrificed. To the first point I answer four things. First that in which you say that it ought to be done, it is done when the order is in his entire: But that in a general disorder and confusion, such as was the Popish in the time of the reformation, all the formalities of order, should no more be required, than they may be observed. Secondly that the Doctors sent by God ought not 2 at all times to acknowledge the cornet caps, the forket mitres, neither their triple crowns. And that those that first revealed the birth of jesus Christ, was neyther●Priest of the law, neither pastors of the Church, but Pastors and shepherds of the field: So the Heretics Origenists were discovered, and refuted by a woman, while as the Pope of Rome, the pretended head Tom. 5. an. 399. s. 19 20. of the Church was sleeping as Baronius himself confesseth: God serving himself sometimes of instruments very contemptible to effect his work, in confounding his enemies, by the goad of an ox, in the hand of Samgar, by an hammer in the hand of jahel: by the chaftblade of an ass in the hand of Samson, by a stone, in the hand of David, against Golyah. Thirdly, such like proceedings hath been before times approved, even before the destruction of order, 3 Theodor. lib. 16. 23. & 24. to wit in Edesius & Frumentius, preaching the Euangile to the Indians, without being sent or called: also in a poor woman a slave, who planted the same in the kingdom of the Iberians. Fourthly, that by the proper confessiion of divers 4 and many Doctors of the Roman Church, yea even Cardinals, disorder was very great and extreme in the said Church, and that she had need of reformation, as well in the head as in the members, as well in the Faith as in the manners. Behold in the Friar Onuphrius this notable apothegm of Pope Adrian 4. repeated & confirmed by the pope Marcell. That there is Oauph. In vita marcil: lib. 2. non video quommodo quolocum hunc altissimuntonent slu●ri possunt. I see not how those which hold this high place can be safe. no mean to be Pope, & to work his salvation: shall we believe that he who cannot make his own, hath any care of ours, and of that of the whole Church. As touching that where ye say that it is a great fault to the reformed Church that it behoveth that her Pastors had her sending in a part from the Church of Rome, as from a corrupt instrument: I answer, that my letter beareth not, that it is necessary of right; but that this was found wanting in our first pastors: this was not any want, but to acknowledge the fault to amend it, our chief perfection consisting to acknowledge & to correct our imperfections, seeing we be neither Anabaptists who acknowledge not the Church, where there is a great & notable want in manners, neither Papist, who maintaineth that their Church cannot err in the faith, an error, or rather a receptacle, covertour & gulf of all the errors of the world, which carry away with it not only the feeling of the disease, but also the hope of their healing. He that furnished to you this point, should consider, that in throwing it against the Church reform, he might very well retorqueted against the Roman church, in the which we find the Popes themselves to have been made by instruments very corrupt: & among others the Pope Simmachus was confirmed by King Theodorick who was an Arrian, Theod. le. ior. lib. 3. leaving to speak of those that were rather monsters than Bishops or men, hath given the sending or calling to the whole race of their Hierarchy. And as concerning the feminine Papesse jane, ye have learned in your voyage that in Rome, they hold not the whores there for corrupt instruments, & by the testimony of Cardinal Bellarmine, the magistrates sin not, in assigning Bell. de a miss. in great. & statum pro 2. 18. Beron, tom. 9 Ang. 26. & verse 54. to them to have a quarter within the City, for their dwelling, albeit he know perfectly that they would abuse it to an evil purpose. The Clergy of the holy city, not being so superstitious as were they of Grece, in the time of Theodorus Studites, who said that it was a dangerous thing for the soul of a Friar to have but one beast of the feminine kind. And to the second point of your Reply, I say, that we avow that there was sacrifices in the time of S. Cyprian & that there shall be sacrifices to the consummation of the world. But yet that concludes no thing for the Sacrifice of the Mass, pretended real, propitiatory for the living and for the dead, for their sins pains, and satisfactions: good to conjure storms, to heal diseases, to win Battles, to purge the great crimes to draw the souls out of purgatory, to find things lost, etc. The word sacrifice is taken sometime for the whole office and divine service: Saint Paul saith, that he sacrificed the Gospel. And he called Rom. 15. Philip's 3. sacrifice the faith of the faithful, also their prayers to God, their alms for the poor, their collecting for the ministery, the offerings that were made to the holy assemblies, and from whence they took the eucharist, was called Sacrifices: & this is one of the occasions, for the which the name was attributed to the holy Supper. The same answer may serve to your last Reply. As touching that which I spoke of the testimony of the Fathers: whereon you conclude, seeing that I accept then on the questions of fact in matters of their time, I ought then accept the Mass, which S. August. witnesseth to have caused to be celebrated in his time, I say that the same equivocation which is in the word of sacrifice, is in the word of Mess: albeit the usage of this here, is far more new in the Christian Church, then that was of theirs. In divers Fathers, it is not found at all, & only but touched in S. Augustine, & that but in a written work which the most learned holdeth to be counterfeit: & that always in a far different signification than it is taken for now adays. I counsel you to take it into that same sense which S. Augustine doth, by the proper confession of of Bellarmine, (that is) Promissione for one dismissing, and that you give one fare well to the Mass, which is called in Latin, Missam facere missam. Touching that new question, which you make in your letter: to wit, seeing that the way to salvation hath been open in all Ages: to all those who will apply unto them the merit of the death of our Lord. What doctrine (I pray you) professed they who were of the chosen number, three or four hundred years since: and if I had been in those days, in what vessel should I have cast me into, for coming to the port of salvation. I answer that the great Doctor of the Elect in all Ages, is the holy Spirit: for they are taught of God, john 6. ver. 11. as witnessed jesus Christ: and all their doctrine in all times is that of the old and new Testament: which neither Satan, neither his Vicar the Antichrist, could ever destroy. Of this doctrine, God hath always revealed as much as was necessary for them to salvation; whether they did read by themselves, or that they understood it by others: you have an notable example in the History of S. Barnard, who being a little while before the time which you set down perceiving the corruptions of In the life of S. Barnard near the mids thereof. his time, at the very hour of his death (rempted by Satan) he cleansed himself of that filthiness, confessing that he could not obtain salvation by his merits, (which was the doctrine publicly taught in the Schools at that time) neither pretending it but by grace: declaring that our Saviour possesseth it by a a double right, by the inheritage of the Father: and by the merit of his Passion, and that contenting himself with the one, he gave him the other, if you desire a more particular clearing of this question; see the Book of the Cathologue of the witnesses of the troth, and you shall find that there hath been no age so dark, wherein the troth hath not spread some beams amids the smokes which arise out of the bottomless pit of Rome: And if God had given me life in those times, I believe assuredly, that he would have given me the grace, either to abstain from this Papistical poison; or to vomit it up in time, preserving me from this infection: as he preserved his children from the fire of the Babylonian Furnace. In brief, I would have done that, which afterwards I did in Spain, and at Rome, and that which I wish you had performed in the same place, by the example of some of your followers, making their prayers, and exercises of godliness in private, without defiling themselves with idolatry, which is committed in public: & to go out of this Babylon in heart, though they found them as touching the body, there engaged. The total sum is: to sail in the sea of this world which is visible, and material is required a ship visible and material: but to arrive at the haven of salvation, as this port is spiritual, & in no wise of this world: so many enter there without material and visible vessel: that is, without being locally, and corporally in any certain material Temple, or visible Church. And this I maintain is happened to many, during this great and general revolt, under the tyranny of Antichrist, foretold in the Scripture; which like a long and furious tempest hath rend and strangely disfigured the ship of the visible Church, by the wines and waves of humane inventions which have made many both Pilots, and passengers, for to lose the Lodestar of God's ordinances. But suffer me ay (pray you) Sir, to ask you, to what port, or haven you pretend to attain in this ship of neutrality, in which you stay so long in the road, between the two barks of Preaching, & the Mass, And if he, who judgeth men such as he findeth them, calling you unexpectly to appear before his throne, find you thus disposed, what sentence would you hope from his mouth. I beseech him with all my heart, to cause you to think upon it, and so to prepare and direct you, rather by change of life, than Religion. In the mean time, I rest: SIR, Your most humble and affectionate Servitor: D. TILENUS. FINIS.