THE SACK of Room, Exsecuted by the Emperor Charles army even at the Nativity of this Spanish King Philip.  
NOTABLY DESCRIBED IN A Spanish Dialogue, with all the Horrible accidents of this Sack, and abominable sins, superstitions & diseases of that City, which provoked these just judgements of God.  
Translated lately into the English tongue, never fit to be read nor deeplier considered, then even now at this present time.  
LONDON Printed by Abel jeffes for Roger Ward 1590.   

The Translator of this Spanish Dialogue to his Honest loving learned Friend A. V.  
Having in some public employments not long since so overtoyled myself, as I found my liberty of return to my former delectable studies and recreations, a very Paradise in respect of the Hell of Envy and Malice wherein I had been long injuriously with many storms turmoiled: among other histories and pleasant discourses that at idlest time's I read for recreation, this Spanish Dialogue received from you, so pleased me, as partly for exercise of that tongue, but chiefly for the singular good liking I had of the matter, and to pass over some melancholy conceits (wherinto the ingratitude of some persons, at whose hands I had but to well deserved, had thrown me) I began to translate the same into English, following as nigh as I could the very Spanish letter, saving in such phrases as in our tongue have neither grace nor sense.  
The Treatise surely is such, as being read of our nation, could not but work singular good effects, even in our most obstinate modern perverse Papists, seeing it so palpably revealeth the horrible errors and abuses of that their corrupted Roman religion, or rather putrefied superstition (most unjustly by them misnamed Catholic or Apostolical) and that by a couple of their own Spanish party: notsomuch by scriptures sacred, where unto they generally bear so small reverence, as by evident demonstrations & such invincible reasons as were able to reduce very Heathens and Paynims to a better sense: and the Method and style such, as if I could deliver it in English with that grace it hath in the Spanish, were no less delectable than profitable and not unfit for other due respects to be printed and published even in this our time: that as even at the nativity of this aspiring Philip King of Spain, their chief Champion, Almighty God miraculously stirred up a little army of their own religion, justly to chastise the hateful pride of that babylonical Sea, when her treachery was not grown to that height of hellish wickedness, it hath since aspired: So the memory thereof revived by the due consideration of every particular accident, cause, and circumstance, so wittily discussed and lively represented in this discourse, (conferred with the horrible treasons and villainies in this age, before our eyes committed by that Sea, ever since hatching continually new rebellions of subjects, murders of anointed Kings and Princes, Massacres of Christian people, destruction and subversion of kingdoms, & commonweals, tending finally to the utter dispeopling & desolation of all Christendom, being mounted even to the height of her impiety, and ripe for ruin) may now likewise animate & stir up again some noble spirits of our time before or at the death of the same Philip their chief Abbettour, 
Instat Climactericus eius & babilonica Clades.  and maintainer, to attempt and achieve the like, or a more glorious godly honourable enterprise, causing all men of right sense, no less to abhor these devilish practices and practisers, than their damnable wickedness indeed deserves: the which my traduction now finished, I recommend to your correction and disposition: and so leave you to your Theological or Metaphysical muses, and merciful protection of the Almighty.   

The Author's preface to the Reader.  
SO great is the blindness wherein for the most part the world is now drowned, that I marvel not at the false judgements by the common people conceived of this late accident of Rome: for as they suppose Religion to consist only in these external things: so seeing them so badly handled, they think the faith to be utterly overthrown, and in truth as I cannot but commend, the holy zeal wherewith the common sort are thereto moved, so can I not allow of their silence, whose duty were to reduce them from that error. Seeing then on the one part, how prejudicial it should be, first to the glory of God, then to the salvation of his people: and also to the honour of this most Christian king and Emperor whom God hath given unto us, if these matters should remain thus cloaked, I have attempted (rather led thereunto by simplicity and hearty love, then by foolish arrogancy to accomplish with this small service, these three principal things whereunto men are bound. I was not ignorant that the matter was much more high and difficile than the measure of my forces, and yet I know aswell that where there is a good intention, jesus Christ doth lighten the understanding, and supply with his grace the defect of our forces and knowledge attained by humane wit, My thought also, I did see represented before me the false judgements that superstitious Pharizes are like to conceive of this matter, wherefore let them know, that I writ not for them nor to them, but to the true Christians & faithful lovers of Christ jesus. Aswell did I also see, the perverse contrarieties of the common sort, the which are so settled on things visible, as they do almost make a jest of the things invisible. Remembering therefore that I wrote not to Gentiles but unto Christians, whose perfection is to withdraw itself from things visible, & to love the invisible: I remembered also that I wrote not unto brute people, but unto Spaniards, whose wits, there is nothing so difficult but they are able to attain: and seeing my desires are no others than my words express, I easily persuade myself that I shall attain of all that are discreet, and not counterfeit Christians, if any default be found in this dialogue, to interpreat the same in the best sense: and impute the blame to my ignorance, and not presume to believe that malice hath any part therein, since in all I submit myself to the correction and judgement of the holy Church, the which I acknowledge for the mother of the Disciples of the truth.   

The first part of the Sack of Rome.  
The Argument.  
A young knight of the emperors Court named Lattantio, met in the market place of Valedolid with an Archdeacon that came from Rome in a soldiers habit, & entering into S. Francis Church had communication concerning matters chanced at Rome. In the first part Lattantio showed the Archdeacon how the Emperor was in no fault for that matter. And in the second, how God permitted all that was done for the good of Christendom.  Lattantio. 
GOod Lord is not this the Archdeacon of Viso, the greatest friend I had in Rome, a strange matter, it seems to be he, though not by his apparel, it may be some brother of his: I will not pass by without speaking whosoever he be. Tell me Gentleman, are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso?  Arch. 
What signor Lattantio have you so soon forgotten me? it appears Fortune quickly changeth men's knowledge.  Latt. 
What say you? now I see you are the Archdeacon himself indeed.  Arch. 
Yea sir to do you service.  Latt. 
Who could know you coming as now you do? you were wont to wear your garments one longer than another, trailing on the ground, your cap after the Ecclesiastical manner, your servants, and reverend Mule, but now I see you on foot alone, a short cote, with a thread bare Frisado cape, a great sword, and a soldiers hat: besides all this a long beard, and your hair and head without any sign of Crown, who could have known you?  Arch. 
Who sir? Even he that knows the habit by the man, and not the man by the habit.  Latt. 
Well, if the memory have erred, it is no reason goodwill should pay for that fault which in me hath very seldom diminished: But tell me as God help you sir, how comes this change?  Arch. 
What, have you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately?  Latt. 
Yes, I have heard some thing, but what concerns the business of Rome, the change of your garments  Arch. 
Seeing you ask that question it appears you know not all, for than you should have known that there is not in Rome a man that dare pass the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person.  Latt. 
What tell you me?  Arch. 
I tell you that when I came from Rome, the persecution against the Clergy was so great, that there was not a man that durst walk the streets in habit of a Clerk or a Friar.  Latt. 
O marvelous God how incomprehensible are thy judgements? But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time, when the emperors army entered?  Arch. 
Yea for my sins I was found or rather lost there, for of all that ever I had I have nothing left but that you see.  Latt. 
Wherefore did you not commit yourself to the Spanish soldiers, and thereby have saved your goods.  Arch. 
My sins daunted my wits, and my unhappy lot was to fall among the Almans, where I thought it no little gain to escape with life out of their hands.  Latt. 
Is all true we hear from thence, and that men report here?  Arch. 
I know not what you hear, nor what you say of it, but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that ever man saw, I know not how you take it here, it seems to me you make no great account of it. But on my soul I know not whether God will so dissemble it: and if we were in some other place where it were lawful for me to speak I would utter foul and terrible matters with this mouth.  Latt. 
Against whom?  Arch. 
Against him that hath done more mischief against the Church of God then ever Turk or Pagan durst have done.  Latt. 
But soft sir Archdeacon, it may be that you are deceived and lay the fault where it is not, between us any thing may pass, tell me therefore frankly your mind, and I will so endeavour to open unto you your error, that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthy.  Arch. 
I am content to open plainly unto you my mind in this matter, but not here in the Market place, let us go into this Church of S. Francis, and there we will discourse at our leisure.  Latt. 
Agreed, let it be so.  Arch. 
Now that we are where we may talk, and none hear us, I pray you sir whatsoever passeth between us, let no other man be privy of it, for Princes are Princes, and no wisdom for men to put themselves in peril where they need not.  Latt. 
Hereof you may be well assured.  Arch. 
Let us then see signor Lattantio, doth it seem unto you a matter tolerable that the Emperor hath done in Rome that which never Infidels had done, and that for his particular passion, and to revenge himself of I what not what, hath in such sort sought to destroy the Sea Apostolic, with the greatest Ignominy, and with greater Contempt, and greater cruelty than ever was heard or seen. I know that the Goths took Rome, but yet they meddled not with the Church of S. Peter, they meddled not with the Relics of the Saints, they meddled not with the sacred and holy things. But whereas those half Christians had this respect, now our Christians (albeit I know not whether they be worthy of that name) they have not forborn Churches, they have not forborn Monasteries, they have not forborn the sacred things, they have violated all, they have rob all, they have profaned all, that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them up, & those also that sent them, or consented unto it. What think ye now will the Turks, the Moors, the jews, and the Lutherans say, seeing the head of the Church thus handled. O God, that sufferest such a thing. Oh God that consentest to so great a wickedness: Was this the defence that the Apostolic Sea hoped from her defender? was this the honour that Spain hoped for of her so mighty king? was this the glory? was this the good? was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendom hoped? was it for this that his great grandfathers got the title of Catholic? For this cause did they join so many Kingdoms and Seignories unto the rule of one Lord? for this was he elected Emperor? for this did the Bishop of Rome help him to thrust out the French out of Italy? To the end that in one day he should destroy all that their predecessors with so great travels, and in such a multitude of years had founded? So many and such goodly churches, such Monasteries, such Hospitals, and Chapels, where God was wont to be served and honoured, to be now defaced and profaned. So many Altars, yea even in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles imbrued with blood, so many Relics rob and with sacrilegious hands profaned? For this cause did their predecessors adjoin so great holiness to this city? For this did they honour the Church with such and so many relics? For this did they bestow on them so many rich ornaments of Gold and Silver? that in the end he should come without remorse to rob, deface and destroy all? Oh Sovereign God, is it possible that so great a cruelty, so great an outrage, so abominable boldness, so horrible an accident, and so execrable a wickedness can pass without some most rigorous, most grievous, and most notorious punishment: I know not what feeling you have here of it, or if you have any I marvel how ye can let it pass or dissemble it.  Latt. 
I hear attentively all that you have said, and in truth albeit I hear the like uttered of that matter by many, yet me thinks you make it more foul, and blame it more than any other, and in all that you have spoken it seems to me you are very ill informed, and in my judgement it is not reason, but passion, for that you have lost, that causeth you to utter the same which you have spoken, I will not speak passionately as you have done, for so should we spend speech without any Fruit. But without affectionate speeches, I hope trusting in your discretion & good judgement, that before you part from me you shall plainly understand how much you have been deceived in all that you have yet said, only I request you to be attentive, and not to forbear to reply when you see cause, to the end you may not rest in any doubt.  Arch. 
Say what you will, but I will hold you for a greater Orator than Tullius if you be able to defend this cause.  Latt. 
Nay I am content you shall account me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prove my opinion to you with most clear and evident reasons. And the first thing I will prove shall be how the Emperor was in no favit for that which happened at Rome. And secondly how all that happened there came to pass by the manifest & just judgement of God, to correct and chastise that City, wherein (to the great slander of Christian Religion) reigned all those vices that the wickedness of man could invent, and with that correction to awake the christian people, to the end that those evils being remedied we might open our eyes and live like Christians, seeing we glory so much in that name.  Arch. 
A great enterprise you have taken in hand, but how you will go through with it I see not.  Latt. 
Concerning the first I must protest unto you, that no one thing of that which hereafter shall be said is by me spoken in prejudice of the dignity or person of the Pope: For it is great reason that his dignity be reverenced of all men, and touching his own person, surely I can speak no ill if I would. Besides that, it is well known that all which he hath done hath not passed by his own means, but by means of the lewdness of some persons that he keeps about him. And to the end that we the better understand one another, seeing this difference is between the Pope and the Emperor, I pray you first declare unto me, what office that of the Pope's is, and likewise what is the office of the Emperor, and to what end or purpose these Dignities were first established.  Arch. 
It seemeth unto me that the office or duty of the Emperor is to defend his Subjects and to maintain them in great Peace and justice favouring the good, and chastising the ill.  Latt. 
You say well, but what is then that of the Pope.  Arch. 
That is more hard to declare, for if we behold the time of S. Peter, it is one, and in these days another.  Latt. 
But when I demand of you to what end these dignities were ordained, it is meant that you should declare unto me, their intention that did ordain them.  Arch. 
Surely it seems unto me it was ordained to th'end this high Bishop should take on him the Authority to expound the holy scriptures, and to the end he should instruct the people in Christian doctrine, not only with words but also with example of life, and to the end he should with tears and prayers make supplication continually unto God, for his Christian people, and to take on him the supreme charge and power to absolve such as had sinned & were desirous to convert themselves, & to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked lives remain obstinate. And to the end that with continual careful endeavour he should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord: and to the end we should have here on earth such a one as should truly and lively represent unto us the life and holy custom of jesus Christ our Redeemer, because the hearts of men are much more alured with works then with words. This is as much as I can gather out of the holy Scriptures, if you have any thing else, say it.  Latt. 
This shall suffice at this present, and see that you forget it not, for we shall have need thereof hereafter in his due time.  Arch. 
No, I will not.  Latt. 
Then if I show you plainly, that because the Emperor hath done that, which yourself have averred to be his duty: And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to have been done. This destruction of Rome hath followed: In whom will you then lay the fault?  Arch. 
If you could do this which I cannot believe, then is it plain to be the Pope's fault.  Latt. 
Then I pray you tell me yourself, seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the end he should imitate jesus Christ, what do you think that jesus Christ would rather maintain his people in peace or to stir them up and tormoile them in wars?  Arch. 
This is clear, that the Author of Peace doth not detest any thing more than war.  Latt. 
Then let us see how shall he be the Imitator of Christ jesus, that stirred up wars and dissolved peace.  Arch. 
Such an one should be far off from Imitation of Christ, but to what end ask you me this?  Latt. 
I demand it for this purpose, that seeing the Emperor defending his Subjects, as he is bound: the Pope took arms against him, and dissolved the peace, and raised a new war in Christendom, neither the Emperor was in fault for the evils that succeeded, seeing he did that which was his office and duty: Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault, seeing he did that he ought not have done, in breaking the peace and raising a new war in Christendom.  Arch. 
What peace did the Pope dissolve, or what war did he raise up in Christendom.  Latt. 
He dissolved the peace that the Emperor had made with the French king, and hath stirred up the war which we still have, whereby through the just judgement of God the mischief came upon him, which he hath received.  Arch. 
Oh Sir, you make your account well, but where have you learned that the pope stirred up the war with the Emperor, and that he dissolved the peace made with the French King.  Latt. 
Because immediately so soon as the French King was delivered out of Prison, he sent him a writ, wherein he did absolve him of the oath which he had made unto the Emperor, to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which he had promised, whereby more freely he might make war upon him.  Arch. 
But how know you this? you speak as though you had been of the Pope's secret Council.  Latt. 
It is known by many means, but not to lose time look upon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the French king, and you shall plainly see, that the Pope was the advancer of it, and seeing that this is so certain a truth, that even the Pope himself confesseth it: doth it seem unto you now that this was a deed fit for the Vicar of jesus Christ. You say that his office and duty is to make peace among such as are at difference, and he hath sown wars between those that were in concord: you say his office was to teach the people both with words and works, the doctrine of Christ jesus, and he hath taught all things clean contrary thereunto: you say his duty was to pray unto God for his people, and he hath gone about to work their destruction: you say that his office was to imitate jesus Christ, and he in all things hath laboured to be contrary unto him: jesus Christ was poor and humble, but he to increase I wots not what signory, hath put all Christendom in arms. jesus Christ did good against ill, but he ill for good, in making a league against the Emperor, at whose hands he had received so much good. I say not this to reprothe the Pope, it is well known it proceeded not of himself, and that he was irritated thereunto by some bad council.  Arch. 
By this means should he be wholly in the fault.  Latt. 
Both they that gave him so bad council, and himself also that kept about him such mischievous people, for do you think that before God, a Prince shall be excused, by laying the fault in his Council: No, no: for seeing God hath given him judgement to make choice of good men to be of his council, and to advise him to the best, if he choose ill men or retain them about him, the fault is his, and if he have no judgement to choose such persons let him leave his signory.  Arch. 
You require things that are very hard and difficult.  Latt. 
And why hard and difficult, doth there need so great a judgement for this matter. Tell me I pray you, what war is there so just, that a Vicar of jesus Christ should take in hand against Christians, the members of one body, whose head is Christ and his Vicar.  Arch. 
The Pope had great reasons to take in hand this war against the Emperor, one for that he would not first seek his friendship, and an other for that he held by usurpation the state of Milan, having despoiled the Duke Francis Sforza thereof, and the Pope seeing this feared another day he would do as much against him, taking from him also his territories of the Church: And therefore with great justice and reason did the Pope take Arms against the Emperor, aswell to make him restore the Duchy of Milan to the Duke, as also to assure the state and territories of the Church.  Latt. 
I wonder that a man of so good judgement as you are, should speak a thing so far from reason as this, let us see whether the Pope did this as the Vicar of Christ, or as julio de medicis.  Arch. 
It is clear that he did it as Vicar to Christ.  Latt. 
Then I say if the Emperor would against all right and reason, despoil the Dukes of Milan of all his state, what had the Pope to do therewith, why would he intermeddle in matters where he was not desired, and in such matters as appertained no ways to his office: why did he not rather take example by jesus Christ to have done the contrary? who being desired, that in friendly sort he would make Partition of an inheritance between two kinsmen, he would not go, leaving an example to his followers not to intermeddle in so base matters, And would you now have his Vicar to intrude himself with an armed hand being not requested of them? where learn you that jesus Christ appointed his Vicar a judge between secular Princes, how much less an Executioner or brewer of war among Christians? will you see how unlike he is to be the Vicar of Christ that is a stirrer of wars, behold the fruits that proceed thereof, and see how contrary they are, not only to Christian doctrine, but even to human nature? to all other creatures God hath given weapons wherewith they might both defend themselves and offend others: but man alone as a creature descended from heaven, among whom there should be all concord, as a thing that should here represent the image of God, he left him unarmed, he meant not he should make wars, he meant there should be among men as great love and concord, as there is among the Angels of heaven: & yet notwithstanding we are grown to so great blindness, that more brute than the brute creatures, more beasts than the beasts themselves, we do murder one another: the beasts do live in peace, but we much worse than beasts do live in wars, if we will make search in all countries how men live, in Christendom only which is but a corner of the world, you shall find more wars then in all the world beside. And yet are we not ashamed to call ourselves Christians, & for the most part ye shall find them the most inflamers of wars, that aught most to appease them: the Bishop of Rome was bound seeing he would be the vicar of Christ jesus, The Cardinals were bound seeing they would be the pillars of the church: the bishops were bound being pastors, to give their lives for their sheep, even as Christ himself taught when he said Bonus pastor ponit Animam suam pro ovibus suis, but much more the Pope and Cardinals, seeing their revenues were given to these Prelates to that end, that using their pastoral office they might the better protect and preserve their people: but they for fear lest they should lose some little mite of their reputation put all Christendom. O gentle Charity, do I give thee money to defend me, and dost thou therewith gather Soldiers together to murder me, to rob me, and to destroy me? where learn you that jesus Christ commanded his followers to make wars, Read all the evangelical doctrine. Read all the Apostolic Epistles, you shall find nothing but peace, concord, unity, love and charity, when jesus Christ was borne, they intended no wars, but the very Angel's song Gloria in excelsis deo, in terra pax, hominibus bona voluntas, He gave us peace when he was borne, and peace when he was crucified, how oftentimes did he admonish and exhort his followers to this peace and charity, and yet not contented with this, he desired of his father, that his should be one among themselves, even as he and his Father were one, could he require a greater conformity or unity? And yet furthermore, he required that those which followed his doctrine, should not make themselves different from others in garments, neither yet in their manner of behaviour, neither yet in fasting nor in any other external matters, but only in works of charity, this being the principal figure and means to know our faith, would you then have the head thereof to walk so far astray? if secular princes than make wars it is no marvel, seeing the Sheep do but follow the Shepherd, if the head make wars the other members are forced to war also. Of the Pope I cannot but marvel, that should be a mirror of all Christian virtues, and a pattern whereupon we should all cast our eyes, being bound to maintain all in peace and concord (yea though it were with the peril of his own life) will notwithstanding make war to gain and maintain things which jesus Christ commanded to be contemned, and that there should be found among Christians any that would give him aid in an action so wicked, so execrable, & prejudicial to the honour of Christ, what blindness is this? we call ourselves Christians, and yet live worse than Turks, yea worse than brute beasts: if we think that this doctrine of Christ be but a mockery, why do we not forsake it all together, for so at least should we not do so great wrongs, where we have received so great good. But seeing we do know it to be most true, and that we do so much glory in the name of Christians, and disdain those that be not: why do we not endeavour to be Christians indeed; why do we live in sort as if there were neither Faith nor Love amongst us?  
The Philosophers and ancient Sages being gentiles despised and contemned riches, and would you have the Vicar of Christ jesus make wars for that which those blind Pagans esteemed not. What shall those Nations say that do know no more of Christ jesus then that which they behold in his Vicar, but that those Philosophers, who to attain their true good which they had placed in virtue did despice these worldly things, were much better than jesus Christ, when they see his Vicar brewing and stirring up wars for these things which they contemned. Behold here the honour done unto him by them that maintain themselves upon his blood. Oh blood of jesus Christ so evil be thy vicars employed, which by thee gather these masses of money to murder men, to murder Christians, to destroy Cities, to ransack villages, to dishonour Virgins, to make such numbers of Widows and Orphans, and to cause such a multitude of mischiefs, as wars drew with it: A man might see in Lombardy, yea in all Christendom, so great Prosperity, so many and so goodly cities, such stately buildings in the Suburbs and Country, such Gardens, such pleasures, and so great pastimes: The labourers gathered their grains for their Flocks, and manured their lands. The Citizens, Gentlemen, and Nobility, every man in his degree employed freely their goods, they employed quietly their inheritances, increased their rents & many of them distributed largely among the poor: But after this accursed wars began, how many cities have we seen destroyed, how many houses and places of pleasure dispeopled and razed, how many vineyards and Orchards spoiled and defaced, how many of the Nobility, Citizens, and labourers fallen into extreme poverty, how many married women have lost their husbands, how many Fathers and Mothers their dear children, how many Virgins their virginity, how many wives forced in presence of their Husbands, how many Husbands murdered in presence of their Wives, how many Nuns dishonoured, and what a slaughter and decay of men in Christendom? and that worse is, what a number of Souls sent to Hell? And do we wink at it as a matter of jest? And yet this Vicker of Christ not contented with all this, even at this time when we were in peace cometh to stir us up a new war, even at this time I say when we have the enemies of our Faith at our door, to the end we may lose the rest as we lost the kingdom of Hungary, and to the end he might fully accomplish the loss of all the residue that yet remained, Yea and yet further, his Soldiers not contenting themselves to make wars like others seek out new kinds of cruelty. For neither the Emperor Nero nor the Syracusan Dyonisius, nor all the cruel tyrants that have hitherto reigned in the world could invent such cruelties as this army of the Popes after it broke the truce made with Don Hugo de Moncada hath put in execution in the territory of the Collones where two of these Christians have taken a Virgin of the Nobility by the legs, and holding her naked, her head downwards, an other comes with an balberd, all alive as she was cleaves her into two pieces: Oh cruelty, oh impiety, oh most execrable wickedness, what could that poor wench have committed, or what had those wives great with child offended, that in presence of their husbands had their bellies ripped open with their cruel swords, and the infants yet warm roasted on spits before the eyes of the unhappy mother. Oh wonderful God that consentest to these things. Oh ears of Men that can endure to hear such a thing, oh supreme Bishop that sufferest these things to be done in thy name. What had those innocent creatures merited? we speak ill of Herode that caused the children lately borne to be murdered, and thou consentest to have them murdered before they were borne: thou mightest have suffered them at least to have received Baptism, thou shouldest not have endeavoured to have destroyed both soul and body. How had those poor women merited to die with such torment, to have their bowels ripped open living, and to see their children groaning upon spits roasting, or those sorrowful fathers that died with very grief of their unfortunate Children and unhappy Mothers? What jew, Turk, More, or Infidil will now come to the Faith of jesus Christ, seeing we receive such works from his vicars: which of them will ever serve or honour him? And those Christians which understand not the christian doctrine, what have they to do but to follow their Pastor. And if every one will seek to follow him, who will desire to live among Christians? shall we think sir that this is to imitate jesus Christ? shall we think that this is to teach the Christian people? shall we think that this is to interpret the sacred Scriptures? shall we think that these be the works of jesus Christ? shall we think that to this end this dignity was appointed, that by the same he should destroy the Christian people.  Arch. 
I cannot deny it to be an horrible thing, but this is a matter so accustomed in Italy to make no account of a Pope that maketh not war, as they hold it for a very great dishonour for any Pope in his time to lose any little parcel of the lands of the Church.  Latt. 
Not to be tedious I will omit a number of reasons that I were able to allege to confute this, but let us come to the extremity: I say, that if the Emperor would go about to take away the Church lands, what do you think? were it not better that the Pope had lost all his temporal dignities, then that Christendom and the honour of jesus Christ should suffer that it hath done?  Arch. 
No surely, for thus would you go about to spoil the Church.  Latt. 
And why spoil the Church, what call you the Church?  Arch. 
The Pope and Cardinals.  Latt. 
And all the rest of the Christians shall they not as well be the Church as they?  Arch. 
They say yes.  Latt. 
Then the signory and authority of the Church consisteth rather in men then in government of Towns, and therefore shall the Church be well established when it shall have many Christians, and then despoiled when it shall have few.  Arch. 
That seems to me to be true.  Latt. 
Now than he that is the cause of the destruction of any one Christian man, despoileth more the Church of jesus Christ than he that taketh from the Pope his temporal dignities.  Arch. 
Let it be so.  Latt. 
Then tell me now you, what number of Christians have perished since the Pope began this war, to assure as you say his estate? I omit the other mischiefs which wars draweth on with it.  Arch. 
Infinite.  Lat. 
Now you see that he that hath been the cause of this destruction hath more despoiled the church than he that should have bereaved the Pope of his temporal dignity: But let us see if any man should have caught from jesus Christ his Cloak, do you believe that he would have taken Arms to have defended it?  Arch. 
No surely.  Latt. 
Why then would you have the Pope to do it, seeing you say he was appointed to that end that he should imitate jesus Christ?  Arch. 
In this manner the Church should never keep any Signory, every one would pull a piece from it, if they thought the Pope might not defend it.  Latt. 
Whether it be necessary or profitable to the Church, for the Popes to have temporal signories or not, let them look to that, but surely me thinks, they might much better intend matters spiritual, if they did not so much entangle themselves with temporal, & even in that which you have said, you are much deceived. For if the Pope would be content to imitate jesus Christ, and live indeed as his Vicar, he should not only not lose any part of his lands, but rather much more should be given unto him, and let us see how he holds any thing of that he hath but by that means.  Arch. 
You say the truth, but now there is scarcely any charity in the world.  Latt. 
It is yourselves with your evil lives that quench the fire of Charity, and in yourselves it lieth to kindle and inflame it, If you would.  Arch. 
You would have us inflame charity by losing all we have.  Latt. 
And why not? if it have been given you for God's sake, why should you not be content for God's sake to forego it. It is most certain that all true Christians should so do, we hold & possess our goods temporal with this condition, that we should be always ready to leave them whensoever we shall see it conventent for the honour and glory of Christ jesus, and for the common good of Christendom: how much more than ought you of the Clergy to do the same, yea, and how much more in duty then ought the Vicar of jesus Christ to do it?  Arch. 
You are so holy as I need not meddle with you, surely we have no need of such at Rome.  Latt. 
Nether would I desire to live among such wicked people?  Arch. 
You mean as there are now there:  Latt. 
Neither yet as these that were there, for in an infected flock there is bad choice to be made.  Arch. 
What? do you then account us as bad as those Roisters.  Latt. 
As bad? Ney I would you were not much worse.  Arch. 
Wherefore.  Latt. 
Because you are much more pernicious unto the whole commonweal by your bad example.  Arch. 
And I pray you what be they?  Latt. 
They make not profession to be the ministers of God as you do, neither have they living for such as they have, neither is there any that will seek or aught to seek to imitate them, as they should you. But stay a while, I have not yet done, for hitherto have I handled this matter, calling the Pope Christ's vicar: now will I handle it, making account or supposing the Pope is also a secular Prince as the Emperor, to the end you may the more clearly see the Error you were in. And as concerning the first, it is most certain that the Pope received this dignity by the favour of the Emperor, and having so gotten it, behold what gratitude, immediately he comforts himself with the King of France at his entrance into Italy, and left the friendship of the Emperor. Yea and some aver that the Pope himself was the solisitor and causer of his entrance into Italy, and notwithstanding all this, the Emperor having the victory against the French King, was not only content not to take from the Pope his territories of Parma and Placentia, as both in justice and Reason he mought then have done, but ratified the league that his Ambassador made with him, yet the Pope notwithstanding not contented with this, began to frame a new league in Italy against the Emperor after the French King was Prisoner. But that secret practice was discovered, and so took no effect. And yet could not all this so alienate the emperors mind, but that he sought by all honest and reasonable means to content the Pope, and to procure him to be a mean in that peace, which was entreaty between him and the King of France, and that he should not hinder it, but he was never able to attain it. Yet in the mean time was this peace concluded with France, but so soon as the King was set at liberty, the Pope began to procure a new league with him against the Emperor, having received no occasion in the world at his hands so to do, and all this even at that time, when the Turks with a puissant Army began to enter by the kingdom of Hungary, do you think that this was a good part? The enemies were come to our gates, and we brew wars within the house. He requires the Emperor that he should not prepare any forces to resist the Turk, and yet himself secretly prepareth to make war upon the Emperor. Do you think that these were works of a Christian Prince?  Arch. 
But let us see on the other side why the Emperor did not justice to the Duke of Milan, for if he had committed no fault, was it not good reason he should restore his state to him again.  Latt. 
Yes surely, and therefore sir, behold the Emperor placed Francis Sforza in the state of Milan, whereas he might have ta'en it to himself, seeing he hath much more right thereunto then that Duke, and that only for the peace and ease of Italy and all Christendom, he was content to bestow it on such a man, at whose hands he never had received any service. And afterward the Emperor understood by his Captains that the same Duke had conference, and had taken part in that league which the Potentates of Italy had made against him. And seeing therein he had committed treason, it was good reason, that as a rebel disgraded, he should be deprived of his state.  Arch. 
And how will you deprive a man unheard?  Latt. 
And why not? when the fault is evident and manifest, or by delay might ensue inconvenience, as at that time when the army of the Emperor was in extreme danger, if it had not possessed itself of the Cities and Villages in the state of Milan.  Arch. 
But why did not the Emperor afterwards cause inquiry to be duly made, to have understood the truth, and then to have restored the state unto him, if he had been found faultless.  Latt. 
And where have you seen a man accused in causes criminal to answer by a Proctor, especially in matter of treason: he might have presented himself and so have been tried by order of justice. But that absenting of himself did sufficiently prove he was culpable.  Arch. 
He feared the Captains of the Emperor, whom he knew to bear him small good will.  Latt. 
In good faith he feared his own injustice, for behold so soon as he was escaped out of the Castle of Milan, he joined himself with the enemies of the Emperor. But what had the Pope to do in that matter, if a Prince will punish his Vassal, hath he to intermeddle therein? Or if he had to do therewithal, and that it did appertain unto his office, was it not sufficient that the Emperor had referred all to Don Hugo di Moncada, offering him all that he could demand. What man is there in the world that would not rather enjoy one with peace, than two with wars? if the Pope so much desired that the Duke Francis Sforza should be restored to his estate, only, because neither the Emperor should enjoy it himself, nor should give it to the infant Don Hernando his kinsman, why did he not accept that which Don Hugo di Moncada did offer on the part of the Emperor, who was content that the said state should rest in the power of the Treceros, till such time as the right of the Duke might be seen, and that if he were not in fault in those matters he was charged, that then he should be immediately restored, and if he were found in fault, and that he ought to be deprived, yet the Emperor promised, that neither he would take it to himself, nor bestow it on the Infant Don Hernando, but on the Duke of Burboune, who was one of those that by the Pope himself was first set down for it. But will you that I tell you? the Pope meant to hold it himself, and thought that the Army of the Emperor being defeated, they should be able not only to turn him out of Lombardy, but also out of Italy, and to take from him his kingdom of Naples, as they had agreed and made partition among themselves. And upon this hope the Pope would not accept of that which by Don Hugo the Emperor had offered him.  Arch. 
It was not for any such matter, but only because he was in league with others, he would not break his faith with them.  Latt. 
This is a gentle excuse, but I pray you why should he rather observe his faith given to the French King, for the destruction of Christendom, than his former oath given to the Emperor for remedy of the same, he should much rather have broken the latter given to the French King, than the first given to the Emperor. Do you not know, that a vow made to the hurt or prejudice of your neighbour, ought not to be observed, how much more than such an oath as tendeth to the hurt of all Christendom, the dishonour of GOD, and destruction of such a multitude of people as have suffered by means thereof.  Arch. 
Surely in this I must confess you have very great reason, but you consider not how the emperors army menaced to invade the Territories of the Pope, and that the Pope as a good Prince seeing you will so call him, is bound to defend them, and you know well even the law of nature permitteth every man to defend his own.  Latt. 
If the Pope would have kept the league which he had made with the Emperor, or would have accepted that which was newly offered unto him, his army would never have threatened to have entered on the Pope's territory. And yet if all were as yourself say, and that the law of Nature permitteth every man to defend his own: yet tell me, do you judge that Princes have the same Authority over their people, that you have over your Mule.  Arch. 
Wherefore not?  Latt. 
Because Beasts are made for the service of Man, but Man only for the service of God, let us see, were Princes made for the people, or people for the Prince's sake?  Arch. 
Surely I believe Princes were ordained for the people's sake.  Latt. 
Then a good Prince without respect of his particular interest, is bound to procure the good of his people only, seeing for their sake he was ordained.  Arch. 
Indeed in reason it ought so to be.  Latt. 
Well then let us put the case, that the Emperor's Army would have invaded and possessed the Territories of the Church, and let us consider whether were better for the inhabitants, that the Pope should freely have surrendered to the Emperor, or in defence of them to do as he hath done.  Arch. 
Surely if we shall have regard only to the profit of the people, there is no doubt if the Pope had freely given all those territories to the Emperor, they should not have suffered so great damage as they have done, but show me a Prince that will do this.  Latt. 
I will show you even the Emperor himself, do you not know that he might with very great reason and justice have ta'en to himself both the Dukedom of Milan and the signory of Genua, seeing there is not any that have so good right to them as himself. But because he saw it was better for the good of the people that he should bestow the one on Francis Sforza, and in the other to establish the Adorni, he did it frankly and liberally, less regarding his own benefit then the public weal, as every good Prince aught.  Arch. 
If all men should do that they ought to do, than both spiritual and temporal, all should be the Popes.  Latt. 
The Popes, and why?  Arch. 
Because he would govern them better and more holily than any other.  Latt. 
And are you not ashamed to say so? do you not know, that there are not any territories worse governed than those of the Church?  Arch. 
Yes I know it well, but I thought you had not known it.  Arch. 
But let us consider also if the Pope played the part of a good Prince in taking Arms against the Emperor, at whose hands he had received so many benefits, breaking the peace & friendship he held with him.  Arch. 
The Pope did not take Arms against the Emperor, but against that unbridled army that committed horrible extortions and other abominable things in the state of Milan, and right and reason would, those poor people should be delivered from that Tyranny.  Latt. 
I marvel that you should say such a thing, for let us see if the Pope would have maintained friendship with the Emperor, what should his Majesty have needed to have kept an army in Italy seeing he had so lately given commandment to discharge it, but when he understood of the league made against him, he was then constrained to continue it, if the Pope pretended nothing but the liberty & restitution of the Duke of Milan and to free that state of the vexations of the emperors Army, and to assure the Church lands. Why did he not embrace the emperors friendship, by the which all might have been remedied, seeing the same was also desired at his hands: if the Pope had desired no more than you speak of, what fault had the kingdom of Naples committed that they should divide, it among them? what had the cities of Genua and Sena committed, that the one by sea and the other by land should be besieged? he would pretend to remedy the extortions and spoils of the army in Lombardy, and yet indeed not only increased them there, but gave occasion to make them far greater through all Italy: yea even throughout all Christendom. Read the league made between the Pope, the K. of France, the Venetians & the Florentines, and there shall you see even that which the Pope sought, what had the Emperor done unto him, why he should take Arms against him?  Arch. 
Did I not tell you that the Pope did not take Arms against the Emperor, but only against his unbridled Army?  Latt. 
So that this war than was only against the Army.  Arch. 
No otherwise.  Lat. 
Why then if the war were upon the Army, & the Army have revenged itself, wherefore lay you the fault in the Emperor.  Arch. 
Because the Emperor did sustain them, & sent them new supply, wherewith they might be able to do that they have done.  Latt. 
Did not yourself say that the Emperor's office & duty was to defend his Subjects and to do justice: If the Pope than would misuse them, and seek to possess his kingdoms and signories, and to hinder him from doing justice upon the Duke of Milan, as he was bound, of force he was constrained to maintain & increase his army to be able to defend and relieve them, or else in leaving to do so, he should have left to be a good Emperor.  Arch. 
In this you have reason, but I pray you tell me, do you think it was well done of the Emperor to send Don Hugo, and the Collonese to make that attempt on Rome?  Latt. 
The Emperor never did it.  Arch. 
What? did not the Emperor give commandment that Don Hugo and the Collonesi together should jointly enter Rome, and apprehend the Pope?  Latt. 
No, he did it not, but if he had done it, do you think it had been ill done?  Arch. 
Oh my God, And would you take upon you to defend that too?  Latt. 
Yea surely, and tell me I pray you if yourself had a Father, that had so far lost his wits and senses, that with his own hands would go about to kill and tear his own children, what would you do?  Arch. 
Having no other remedy I would either shut him up, or bind his hands till he returned to his wits again.  Latt. 
And should you not think that for your brother's sake also it were your duty and charge so to do.  Arch. 
Yes surely it is plain I ought to take care and charge also of them.  Latt. 
Then tell me, the Pope is he not a spiritual Father of all Christians?  Arch. 
Yea.  La. 
Then if he with wars go about to destroy his own Children do you not think it shall be a good & merciful deed aswell towards him, as also towards his Children to endeavour to take away from him the power to do this harm, you cannot deny me this.  Arc. 
Well, but all this while see you not how great damage & dishonour done to jesus Christ to handle in this manner his Vicar?  Latt. 
Nay, rather there is done unto him great service, by avoiding this ill that his Vicar through the bad council that he keeps about him, should not be the cause of the destruction of such a multitude of people, for whom jesus Christ died aswell as for him, and believe me even the Pope himself, when laying aside his passions he shall come to a right knowledge of the truth, will be exceedingly well pleased with it, that hath taken away from him that means whereby he might otherwise have done so great an harm: if not I pray you tell me, if yourself (which God forbidden) should be so far out of your wits, as that with your own teeth you should bite and tear your own flesh, and members of your own body, would you not be singular well pleased with him, & hold yourself much bound unto him that should hold and stay you till you came to your wits again?  Arch. 
This is clear.  Lat. 
Then behold how all we Christians are members of jesus Christ, and have for our head the same jesus Christ.  Arch. 
You say truth.  Latt. 
Then if this his Vicar by the bad council he hath about him be the occasion of the perdition and murder of his own proper members which are the Christians, shall he not be singularly well pleased with him, that shall hinder and let him from doing so great an evil?  Arch. 
Without doubt you say the truth, but every man cannot attain this understanding nor can judge a right farther than they can see, and therefore Princes should be very wary what they do.  Latt. 
Much more are the Princes bound unto God then unto men, & more regard should they have of the judgement of wise men then of fools. It were a goodly matter that a Prince should leave to do the duty which he oweth for the service of God, and welfare of his country, for fear of that which the blind multitude should judge or speak. Let a Prince do that he ought, and let the multitude prate what they list: for so they judged of David because he danced before the Ark of the Testament. So they judged of jesus Christ, because he died upon the Cross, when they said he saved others, but could not save himself, even so they judged of the Apostles, because they preached Christ jesus: even so they judge in these days of those which endeavour to become true Christians indeed, despising the vanity of this world, and follow the right path of the truth. And who is there that can escape the false judgements of the common people? Rather we should think that very good which of the multitude is condemned for bad, and contrariwise. But will you know the truth? Malice and craft they call industry, Avarice and Ambition they call Magnanimity, the slanderous Backbiter a good Companion: a vain dissembling Liar they term a gallant Courtier: the subtle deceiver they call a wise man: and contrariwise a good and virtuous man is called simple. If any man in christian humility make small account of this worlds vanity, they say he is become a fool. Such a one as for God's sake distributes his goods to the poor, they say is prodigal. And such a one as by practices and deceits will not seek for honour and wealth they say he is a man of no valour. and such a one as for the love of Christ forgiveth injuries, they call a coward and a man of small courage. Finally converting virtues into vices, and vices into virtues, the lewd and wicked they term happy and fortunate, and the good and virtuous poor and unhappy. And notwithstanding all this they are not ashamed to usurp the names of christians having no sign or mark thereof.  Arch. 
Surely I am of this mind, that although you say the truth, yet yourself being young, a secular person, & a Courtier, you should do better to leave these matters to divines: but this I say, let all be as you have declared, yet let us see at least whether it had not been reason whosoever began this trouble, that the Emperor should have chastised those which sacked the holy Palace and the church of S. Peter.  Latt. 
Sir it had been much better that the Pope should not have broken the league nor his faith that he gave to Don Hugo.  Arch. 
It was not he that broke it.  Latt. 
Who then made wars upon the Collonesi.  Arch. 
He made those wars not in the name of the Pope, but in the name of the College.  Latt. 
Never tell me these childish fables, whose were the Captains? whose were the Soldiers? who paid them? whose were the Ensigns? to whom ought they obedience? These are toys to mock Children. But I wonder who they were that invented such a vanity, and also of the Cardinals that gave their consent to have it done in their name. But it is very well, seeing God hath well chastised them for it.  Arch. 
Would you not have the Pope chastise the Collonesi being his own subjects.  Latt. 
No, seeing he had given his faith not to do it, and broke his league so oft as he took arms against them, and he knew the Emperor ought not to give his consent, seeing the Collonesi were aswell his subjects as the Popes, and he bound as a good Prince to defend his subjects.  Arch. 
But let us then see forasmuch as after this league was broken, there was on the one side and the other so much hurt done, wherefore did not the Emperor observe the other league which the Viceroy of Naples made with the Pope, at that time when a great part of that kingdom was lost, and all the rest in manifest peril to be gone?  Latt. 
What would not the Emperor observe it? Nay I tell you truly, that when the Capitulations of that truce came to his hands, albeit the conditions thereof were unjust, and against the honour and reputation of the Emperor, yet did his Majesty presently without regard of that which the Pope had so dishonestly done) in giving the Investiture of his kingdoms unto such as had no manner right unto them (a matter for the very Children to laugh at) he did ratify and approve the league showing how much he desired the friendship of the Pope, and to stand in good terms with him, seeing he chose rather to accept such unjust conditions, then to prosecute the just revenge which he had in his hands. But by the permission of God, who had determined to chastise these injuries, the capitulations stayed so long in sending hither, and the ratification in going thither, that before all was finished, that was done which we hereof passed in Rome, and surely if you will judge rightly, there was none in fault but the very Pope himself, who when he might have lived in peace, sought for war, and that truce he rather made for necessity then moved by virtue, when he saw with what determination the emperors Army went to Rome. But was it not more reason that you should have observed the league ye made with Don Hugo, for having so broken the former, what could there behoped but that ye would do the like now, if the Army should have returned. But seeing the army would not return, why did you not moderate those conditions that ye had put into that truce, and so both the Army had returned, and Rome remained free.  Arch. 
Would you that the Pope should have given them money.  Latt. 
And why not? if he had it to give.  Arch. 
What if he had to give being no way bound to do it.  Latt. 
How was he not bound? wherefore then do Christians give unto him the rents and revenues he hath.  Arch. 
Because he should bestow & spend them in those things that should be most profitable for the Christian commonweal.  Latt. 
And what could have been more profitable then to have caused that army to have turned back again? This is clear that although matters in the end should have fallen out even as the Pope desired, yet that Army going forward there could not have been escaped many murders besides such other mischiefs as wars draweth on with it.  Arch. 
You say the truth, but why did not the Emperor pay his Army, that it might have been obedient to his Captains, for it is well known, it was not the fault of the Duke of Burbone, that the truce was not observed, but the Army would not obey him, because it was not paid, and this was the Emperor's fault.  Latt. 
The Emperor paid not his Soldiers that he had there, because he had not wherewithal.  Arch. 
Then seeing he had not wherewithal to pay his Soldiers, why would he make war?  Latt. 
But why do you the same yourselves, and thereby enforce him to keep an army to defend himself, for the emperor full gladly would have lived in peace, if yourselves had not made the war.  Arch. 
Nay somewhat more I can tell you, that if his army had not made such extreme diligence, it should have had enough to do to have defended him, for I do verily believe before this day he should not have had left him a foot of ground in Italy.  Latt. 
How so?  Arch. 
The Pope was then in making another league, much more terrible than the first, whereunto the King of England also should have entered, and the Pope promised to excommunicate the Emperor, and all those on his part, and to deprive him of his kingdoms of Naples and Scicilia, and to continue a new war upon him till such time as they had enforced him to restore unto the French king his Sons.  Latt. 
A gentle piece of work I promise you, but had it not been better to have brought to pass that the army might have returned then to kindle a new fire.  Arch. 
Better no doubt: but to conclude, men are men, and cannot at all times command themselves according to the rule of reason. But I pray you come nearer, albeit in all that you have said, you have the greatest reason in the world, yet in good faith do you think it well done, that with those Almans worse than heretics, and that with that scum of Spaniards and Italians that have neither faith nor law. The Emperor should suffer that sacred City of Rome to be destroyed, the which (be it good or be it bade) in conclusion it is the head of Christendom, he ought to have had an other manner of regard thereunto.  Latt. 
I have already plainly showed you, that this was not done neither by the commandment nor by the will of the Emperor, and further that yourselves began to make the war, when there was a truce, and notwithstanding the Emperor ratified the peace so soon as it was presented.  Arch. 
But why should he keep in Italy such wicked people as like ravenous Wolves should come to destroy that holy City.  Latt. 
If you yourselves would have been contented to have lived in peace, & not have made war upon the Emperor when he did nothing against you, there had been indeed no cause why he should have maintained or sent any such people into Italy would you have it lawful for yourselves to make wars upon us, and not lawful for us to defend ourselves. This were in deed a gentle manner of living.  Arch. 
Well let it be lawful for you in God's name, but yet not with Infidels and Heretics.  Latt. 
Surely you speak very badly herein, for as concerning the Almains, you cannot be certain that they are Lutherans, neither is it likely or credible considering they were sent by King Ferdinando his brother, that doth persecute the Lutherans. But you yourself have received into your Army Lutherans that were fled out of Almany, and with them have you made wars upon the Emperor. And as concerning the Spaniards and Italians, which you call Infidels, if your meaning be to call wicked living infidelity. Who are then more Infidels than yourselves, for where may a man find more vices, yea or so many or so public, or so free of punishment as in your court of Rome? or who ever committed so great and abominable cruelties as that Army of the Pope in the territories of the Colonesi? if those of the Emperors be Infidels for living so ill, why are not those of yours Infidels that are much worse? If it be lawful for you to make wars with people that you yourselves repute Infidels, why shall it not be lawful for us to defend ourselves with a people that we take not to be Infidels? what a mockery is this. That which you do against the Emperor, you do it not against him but against his Army, but that the Army doth against you, is not done by the Army but by the Emperor.  Arch. 
Well let us say the Army did it without commandment, without consent, and against the will of the Emperor, And that his Majesty was in no fault, let us then see when it was done, why hath he not punished the offenders and ill doers.  Latt. 
Because he knoweth it to be a thing rather divine then human. And because he is accustomed rather to do good for ill, then ill for good. And a gentle toy it were for him to chastise and punish those that venture their lives for him, and in his service.  Arch. 
Well then seeing ye will not chastise and punish them, yet why would ye be any longer served with such a people as had committed so horrible and abominable outrage,  Latt. 
For two respects, first to avoid the mischief they would have done being disbanded or cashed, and also to resist the flames that yourselves had kindled: For a mockery had it been at that time when the French were marching into Italy for the Emperor to cash or dissolve his Army.  Arch. 
I cannot well tell what to reply, and surely in this you have very fully performed your promise, and in this I must confess I was much abused. But now I would desire you to open unto me the causes why God hath permitted the evils which have been done in Rome, seeing you say it hath been for the great good of Christendom.  Latt. 
Seeing in the first you rest satisfied I doubt not by Gods help but to leave you much better contented in the second, but seeing it now late, we will leave that part for after dinner because I mean now to detain you for my guest.  Arch. 
It shall be sir as you command, for hither we may afterwards return again.   

The second part.  Lattantio. 
TO accomplish now that, which I have promised you, having already half done in performing the first part, ye will not deny me that all the vices & all the deceits that the malice of Man was able to invent, was not conjoined together in that City, which with great reason ye name the holy City, because it ought so to be.  Arch. 
Surely therein you have great reason, and God knoweth what I always thought of that matter, and what I felt at heart to see that City which in reason ought to be even the pattern of virtues to all the world, to be so full of vices, chafferie, deceit, and manifest villeinies: Such sale made of Offices, Benefices, Bulls, Indulgences, and Dispensations, so shamelessly, that in very truth it seemed a very mockery of the Christian Faith, and that the Ministers of the Church took no other care but only to invent means to scrape money. The Pope pawned certain Apostles, that he had of Gold, and afterwards made an imposition to be levied by Bulls, pro redemptione Apostolorum. It is strange they were not ashamed to commit things so foul and prejudicial to their own dignity.  Latt. 
The very same say all they that come thence, and the same did I myself know when I was there: But come you hither: If your Sons?  Arch. 
Ah sir speak courteously.  Latt. 
Pardon me, I remembered not you were a Clerk, albeit ye have many Clerks that take no shame to have Children, but this speech I only use for an example.  Arch. 
Well then, speak on.  Latt. 
If your Sons should happen to have a very vicious and bad Schoolmaster, and that you did perceive that by his vicious and bad manners he did infect them, what would you do?  Arch. 
I would many times admonish him that he should amend, but if he would not do it, I would use my authority over him, and chastise him gently, that for fear of ill he should amend, if he would not for the love of good.  Latt. 
Then behold here God is Father to us all, and hath delivered us unto the Pope as unto our Schoolmaster, to the end we should learn of him, and of those that are about him to live like Christians. But seeing the vices of that court of Rome, were such and so great, that they infected these Children of God, & that we did not only not learn of them the doctrine of Christ, but rather a manner of life most contrary, God seeing that neither the Prophets, the Evangelists, nor such a number of learned Doctors as have written in times past, reproving vices, and praising virtues, could move them that lived wickedly to amend and live like Christians, he sought out new means to draw them to do their duties. And besides many other very good Masters and Preachers sent us in times past, he hath sent even in these our days that excellent Man Erasmus Roterodamus, who with much eloquence, prudence, and modesty, in many of his works, discovering the vices and deceits of the Romans Court, and in general of all the Persons Ecclesiastical, a man would have thought it had been enough to have moved all such as in that calling lived so wickedly to have amended for very shame of those things were spoken of them. But when this would nothing profit them, but that their wickedness rather daily more and more increased, God sought a new mean to convert them, and therefore permitted that Friar Martin Luther to rise up, who should not only utterly shame them, declaring without any respect all their vices, but should also draw a number of people from the obedience of these prelates, to the end that such as would not be moved with shame might at least for covetousness of their worldly wealth be reform, seeing how much ye should lose by the revolt of Almanie, or for ambition, seeing how great a signory ye should part withal if Almanie should fall from your obedience in sort as presently it doth.  Arch. 
But that Friar hath not only spoken evil of us but also of God in a thousand heresies that he hath written.  Latt. 
You say the truth, but if yourselves had not first amended that which with great reason he reproved and not irritated him farther with your excommunications, perhaps he never would have broken out into those heresies, which afterwards he wrote, neither should ye have had in Germany so great a destruction of souls and bodies, as since by means thereof hath happened.  Arch. 
But stay sir, this could not be remedied without a council general, & they say it was not fit at that time to call a council, for that it had been a manifest betraying of all the ecclesiastical persons, so as if at that time we should have called a general council, we might have gone all to the Hospital, & the Pope too with us for company.  Latt. 
How so?  Arch. 
The whole states of the Empire presented certain wrongs, which they said they received of the apostolic Sea & of many people ecclesiastical, & in every point they required redress,  Latt. 
And why then did you not redress them?  Arch. 
Thereabout we went, but they alleged that seeing the rents of the church were given and appointed for relief and succour of the poor that they should be spent that way, and not in wars, nor in vices, nor in pride as at this day for the most part they are. And then they farther desired that the people and not the clergy should have the administration of them. And then they desired that no dispensation should be given for money, alleging that aswell the poor were the Children of God as the rich, and that giving dispensations for money, the Poor who in reason should be most privileged were most oppressed, and the Rich contrariwise most privileged.  Latt. 
And were not you in that as I have often been and still am astonished in such sort as I know not what to say, I see on the one side that Christ praiseth poverty and inviteth us with his most perfect example thereunto, but on the other side, I see we can scarcely get any thing of his Ministers but for money, at Baptism money, at Bishoping money, at Marriage money, at Holy Orders money, for Confession money, for discharge of Excommunications money, no not Extreme Unction without money, they will ring no Bells without money, no Burial in the Church without money, no hearing of Mass in times of Interdiction without money: So that it seemeth by them, that Paradise is shut up from them that have no money. Then what meaneth this that the Rich is buried in the Church and the poor in the Church yard. If Christ had meant that his Church should have been more partial to the Rich, then to the Poor, why doth he council us to poverty? The Rich man may marry with his nearest kin, but the poor not so, albeit he be ready to die for love of her. The rich may eat flesh in Lent, but the poor may not, albeit Fish perhaps be much dearer. The rich man readily getteth large indulgences, but the poor none, because he wanteth money to pay for them. And of this manner ye shall find an infinite number of other things: and you shall not want of them, that will allege many things to be done for the service of God as to found Churches and Monasteries, to say many Masses, & many Trentals, and to buy many Tapers to burn upon your Sepulture. jesus Christ doth council me to despise and leave all these worldly things to follow him, and thou dost council me to seek them. You should do me a very great pleasure to show me the reason they can allege for it, for as God shall save me, I neither know, nor can conceive any.  Arch. 
In good faith ye are now climbing a good Tree, but hear you? I never broke my Brain about these matters that could yield me no profit.  Latt. 
Now well mought you thee I pray God.  Arch. 
Besides all this they said, that when unto the Clergy these liberties and Immunities were first given, which yet they hold, they were then poor & imparted that they had with others that were in want more than themselves, but now they are much more rich than their founders, and that it seemed neither honest nor reasonable, that the poorer sort of the people should be burdened with impositions, when the Clergy upon whom they spent all should be exempted. They said also that they had so many feasts days to observe, that workmen and labourers received great prejudice thereby, and that by proof it was seen, that men upon those days did not exercise themselves in such matters as they ought, but in other matters much worse, then upon other days, so that it were convenient also to have some moderation of these holy days.  Latt. 
And what do you think that they spoke amiss therein.  Arch. 
And will you defend them to? Do you not see that those Saints whose feasts you would abolish would be offended, and thereby some great ill might happen unto us.  Latt. 
Yea but do not you see that those Saints have much more cause to be offended with the vices and villainies committed upon those festival days, then if men did only work for their living. Surely if men did truly serve God upon these festival days, I would wish every day festival, but seeing this is not done, I cannot hold it ill, that they were moderated, if a man play the drunkard, or play all day at Bowls or at Dice, or wander about women or other like villainies, we think we have not broken the feast. But if another forced by extreme necessity work to get his meat, presently they say this is an heretic. I cannot skill of these services, it grieveth men to see rich men upon these days to take all their pleasures, and to lay the whole burden on the unhappy Artificers, labourers, and poor men.  Arch. 
For all this that you have said we make no great reckoning, we rather look to that we should lose in acquitting any of our feast days.  Latt. 
Why what should you lose.  Arch. 
Our offerings, which are made much more abundantly on festival days then upon other. They said also that there was of the Clergy many that lived very badly, and marrying not, yet kept they both women and children, even aswell and as openly as if they had wives, whereupon ensued much offence and slander among the people, wherefore they say it were better for them to marry.  Latt. 
Why what should you lose.  Arch. 
Our offerings which are made much more abundantly on festival days then upon other. They said also that there was of the Clergy many that lived very badly and marrying not, yet kept they both women and children even aswell and as openly as if they had wives, whereupon ensued much offence and slander among the people, wherefore they say it were better for them to marry.  Latt. 
And what cause have you to dislike of that.  Arch. 
And have we not cause of dislike from freemen to be made bondmen.  Latt. 
I rather think of slaves they would make you freemen, for tell me is there in the world any greater bondage or slavery then unto sin.  Arch. 
I think not.  Latt. 
Why then yourselves resting in sin with these your Queans, do you not see that you are most shamefully the slaves of sin. And they discharge you of that slavery, that seek to have you married, whereby you may live honestly with your lawful wives.  Arch. 
But do not you see that if Clerks should marry, it would go ill with them, and that they should lose much of their authority.  Latt. 
And do not you think it much worse, they should be whoremongers, and thereby lose more of their authority, if I might see Clerks live chastened, and that they would admit none to that dignity, but such as were at least 50. years of age, as God save me I would think it better, they should not marry. But among such a number of young priests that take orders rather for covetousness then for the love of God, in whom you see no sign of Christian modesty, were it not much better for them to marry.  Arch. 
But do you not see, that if Clerks should marry their children being not capable of inheritance, they should either die for want, or must be forced to become thieves, or their Fathers should be compelled to rob the Church of her living, to bestow it on their Sons, whereby should grow two great inconveniences, the one that we should increase a number more of thieves and secondly that our Churches should be despoiled.  Latt. 
Both these inconveniences may easily be remedied, if that you of the Clergy would labour to imitate the poverty of them, whose successors you pretend yourselves to be, and that you would not be ashamed to bring up your children in some honest occupations, whereby they might get their living, and so should they be also much better brought up & instructed in matters of faith, whereby should ensue much good to the public weal, and so God help me it is a thing me thinks yourselves should desire.  Arch. 
Desire quoth you. God forbidden that ever that should come to pass, for mark sir, whereto we should then come, if I marry I must then of necessity live with my wife, be she good or bad, foul or fair, all days of my life or her life: whereas now if she that I keep content me not to night, I can leave her to morrow and take an other. And besides all this, if I list not to keep a wench of mine own, all the pretty wenches in the world are ours or to speak more frankly and plainly, you keep and maintain them, and we enjoy them.  Latt. 
But what becomes then of your Souls.  Arch. 
O let that alone, for God is merciful, I make my prayers and confess me to God when I lie down, and when I rise again. I take no man's goods, I own no man any money, I rob not by the high ways, I murder no man, I fast all those days that the Church commandeth, there passeth not a day that I here not mass, and do you not think that all this is enough to make a man a Christian, as for that other matter of women, to conclude we are men, and God is merciful.  Latt. 
You say truth, but surely herein you are much less than men, & I stand in great doubt, whether God will be so merciful as to pardon so many knaveries, if you persevere still in them.  Arch. 
Well we will leave those matters when we are older.  Latt. 
You do well to jest with God, but how are you assured to live till the morrow.  Arch. 
Be you not so superstitious, God hath pardon enough in store, and see what you do, would you have the constitutions of the Church broken, that hath continued so many years?  Latt. 
And why not? if so it be convenient for the public weal of Christendom.  Arch. 
And shall the Church then seem to have erred so many years together?  Latt. 
You are much awry in your account, for you shall see the church according to some one time doth order things that in an other time again it doth annihilate. Do you not read in the Acts of the Apostles, that in the Council of jerusalem it was ordered, that they should eat no blood nor strangled beast.  Arch. 
Yea I have read it.  Latt. 
Why therefore do you not yet observe it?  Arch. 
I never set my wit on that place.  Latt. 
Then will I tell you, it was done to satisfy the superstition of the jews, albeit the apostles knew it was not necessary, and therefore afterwards they derogated this constitution, as a thing superstitious: and yet it is not to be thought for this, that the Council did err. Then after the same manner, what inconveniences should it be, if that which the Church in one time for urgent respects had ordered, in an other should be for respects more urgent abrogated. And therefore me thinks the same constitution should now also be abrogated, and for truth I know no reason to the contrary, but only that yourself allegeth, it should not be for your own benefit.  Arch. 
Well let us leave this now.  Latt. 
Now therefore do you not think that it should be much better to redress those things which you say the Almains did require, and to amend your lives, and seeing we do honour you so much as the Ministers of God, to be so indeed, and not to continue in your hardness, and so not to be the occasion of great mischiefs as hath thereby happened.  Arch. 
If the Almans desire redress in those matters, the Church may provide remedy when they see good.  Latt. 
Well you see, that for as much as you would not give ear to the honest reprehensions of Erasmus, neither yet to the dishonest rebukes of Luther, God sought out an other kind of means to convert you, and therefore permitted those Soldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo, and also that the Collonesi should make that assault, whereof yourself now complain: for seeing that all were now become shameless, and the behaviour and course of life they all held, he sought to make them do that for fear of losing their lives, which for fear of destroying their souls, they would not do. And God, seeing that there was no other way left to deliver his Children from perdition, he hath done with you even as yourself said you would have done with the Schoolmaster of the Children which should infect them with his vices, and would not amend.  Arch. 
It may be as you say, but what had the image committed? what offences had the Relics done? or the dignities, or the honest and good people which were also rob and ill entreated.  Latt. 
I pray you report me the matter even as it passed, seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I think why God permitted every of those things that ye shall truly recount unto me.  Arch. 
Great reason ye have surely in all this that you have said, I shall with a very good will do that you have required: and hear whatsoever you will say with a much better. You are therefore to know that the emperors Army having left their Artillery at Sena, which was but a small quantity, with the greatest speed that ever was heard of marched even to Rome, and arrived there the fifth of May.  Latt. 
But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication.  Arch. 
Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat upon his entrance into Rome: But the Pope relying upon his new league that he had made, and the Army of the leaguers having promised to come to his succours he would not enter into any manner of communication: And when the Army knew this, the very next day in the morning they resolved to assault the City: And such was our ill fortune, that even at the beginning and within the Town one with an arqebus happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone, whose death was the cause of much ill.  Latt. 
Surely it even breaks my heart to hear of so unhappy a death.  Arch. 
Our sins was the cause, for if he had lived there had not been so much mischief done.  Latt. 
Now would to God you had not had those faults, but who ever heard that the sins of a City should cause their destruction that came to assail them?  Arch. 
In this matter it may be well said, for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquer us, but to defend us from his own army, he came not to sack us, but to keep us that we should not be sacked. It is we that had most cause to lament his death▪ for himself there is no man but rather doth envy him then pity him, for he lost his life with the greatest honour that ever did man, & by his death attained that, which a number of great Captains were never able to attain, so that the very memory of him willbe always most honourable: only one thing grieveth me, that is, the peril of his soul dying excommunicate.  Latt. 
And why excommunicate?  Arch. 
Because he entered with an armed hand into the territories of the Church, and sought to assail the holy city of Rome.  Latt. 
Do you know what one decree saith, to wit, that many are excommunicate by the Pope, that are not excommunicate by God, neither doth the Pope intend, that he should be excommunicate that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them, and in all that he can to provide that they should not receive any damage as this Prince did.  Arch. 
Ye say truth, nevertheless his first motion was voluntary.  Latt. 
Of this yourself before very well declared the cause, for he was bound to defend the kingdom of Naples, being by the Emperor made his lieutenant general for all Italy neither went he to possess the lands of the Church, but to prohibit the Pope that he should not possess the lands & territories of the Emperor and to bring him to some unity and concord with his Majesty.  Arch. 
Well let that be so, but to return to our purpose. The Emperor's army was so desirous to enter Rome, some to rob and spoil, others for the extreme hatred they bore to that court of Rome, and some both for the one and the other cause, that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale. And the Almains on the other side by Pickaxes breaking down the wall, entered by the Burge, on which side stands (as you know) the Church of Saint Peter and the holy Palace.  Latt. 
Yea and a great many of very good houses of Cardinals. Of one thing I very much marvel, that they within having Artillery, and those without having none, how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred only of themselves. But of you how many were slain?  Arch. 
Sir you know how uncertain reports are always in such like matters. Some say Six thousand men, but in truth there died not upon the entry above four thousand, for immediately they retired themselves into the City, and I tell you truth I should have deemed this a very great miracle, if afterward I had not seen the same soldiers have done that they did, whereby I cannot believe that God would do so great a miracle for them.  Latt. 
You are much deceived, for God did not this miracle for them, but to punish and correct you.  Arch. 
Therein I believe you say the very truth.  Latt. 
I wonder after their General was slain, that they were not dismayed (as commonly men are) and so did not leave the fight.  Arch. 
So was it surely but the death of this General inflamed them more and increased their desire to enter the city with greater fury than before.  Latt. 
Ye tell me wonders.  Arch. 
Surely so it was, and this good duke of Burbone was so believed of all, that every man desired himself to die or to revenge the death of him.  Latt. 
And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that cruelty.  Arch. 
It is most likely to be so.  Lat. 
Oh mighty God how marvelous art thou in all thy works, & in each particular how wonderfully discoverest thou thy power, thou determinest that this good Duke should be killed, to the end that with the more rigour thy justice should be executed: but let us see where was the Pope all this while?  Arch. 
Even in his own Palace, and so careless, that it was a wonder he was not taken, but seeing in how bad terms matters stood, he retired himself to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principal persons which stayed with him. And presently the Enemies entered and spoiled, and sacked all that was in the Palace, and the like did they in all the Cardinal's houses, and all other houses, that were within the Burge, not sparing any, no not the Church of the Prince of the Apostles. This day they had there enough to do without entering into Rome, whither our people, hoisting up the draw Bridge, had retired and fortified themselves.  Latt. 
But the people of Rome, and the rest of you that were escaped when you saw this present danger why did you not accord with the Emperor? what had you to do with the Pope's war.  Arch. 
Surely very little, but what would you have us to do? have ye not heard the old prover be that the laws are as please the Prince. The Poor Roman people seeing their manifest destruction, would have sent Ambassadors to the army of the Emperor to have agreed with him, and to have avoided the sack, but the Pope by no means would consent unto it.  Latt. 
But herein tell the truth, for this was a strange inhumanity, had it not been better for the poor people to have taken any accord for their safety, then to have suffered that they have done.  Arch. 
You say truth, but who would have thought that matters should have fallen out as they did. The Captains of the Emperor presently determined to assault the City, and the very same night fight with their enemies they entered, and the sack continued more than eight days, in which time they had no regard of nation, quality, or kind of men.  Lat. 
O my God, and were not the captains able to remedy so great an evil?  Arch. 
Surely the Captains did what they could, but all was in vain, the Soldiers being so fleshed in these robberies as they were: you should behold troops of Soldiers passing the streets with cries, one carried prisoners, an other plate, an other household stuff. But the sighs, groans, and outcries of Women, and Children in all places were so piteous, that my Bones yet shake to make report of them.  Latt. 
Yea and mine also to hear you tell of it: but they carried some respect to Bishops and Cardinals?  Arch. 
In truth no more than if they had been soldiers as themselves, and the like to the Churches and Monasteries, all was fish that came to their net, there was never seen more cruelty, less humanity nor fear of God.  Latt. 
This outrage me thinks should be done by the Almains.  Arch. 
In good faith our Spaniards were not idle, but played their part aswell as any, and then the Italian pages for they were the first that set to their hand.  Latt. 
But you yourselves what did you all that while.  Arch. 
We had good leisure to pair our Nails.  Latt. 
But in good south.  Arch. 
What would you we should have done, some fled, some were ta'en and ransomed, and all of us sped unluckily.  Latt. 
But you that were ransomed, did they then suffer you to live in peace.  Arch. 
No as God save me, we were even in as great peril as before, till such time as we had nothing lest that they could spoil us of.  Latt. 
But whereof then did you eat.  Arch. 
The mercy of God never failed, when we had no partridges we eat Hens.  Latt. 
And upon fasting days.  Arch. 
What talk ye of fasting days, think you Soldiers make any difference between fasting days and Soundays. O cursed generation, for to tell you the truth me thought it was a most wicked thing that they should have so small regard of the commandments of the Church.  Latt. 
Do not you yourselves contemn the Commandments of God, and do you marvel that the Soldiers regard not the precepts of the Church. But which think you to be the greater fault, simple fornication, or to eat flesh in the holy time of Lent.  Arch. 
This is a gentle question, the one is a natural and human matter, and the other a great abomination, to eat flesh in the holy Lent, O jesus speak not of such a thing.  Latt. 
Now as God help me, you have a gallant judgement, and do you not know that a man may better eat flesh in Lent or on any other fasting day, then commit a single fornication.  Arch. 
And why so?  Latt. 
Because it should be more wholesome for the body, and less hurtful for the soul.  Arch. 
And how so?  Latt. 
Is it not clear that flesh is more wholesome than fish.  Arch. 
Yes.  Latt. 
Then is it not more wholesome for the body to eat flesh then fish? and concernng the soul, is it not a greater offence to break the commandments that God himself hath given then these of the Church?  Arch. 
Yes that is true.  Latt. 
Then is the sin greater to commit fornication, which is prohibited jure Divino, then to eat flesh in Lent, which was only a constitution human.  Arch. 
I am content to confess that you have reason in this also, so as you would show me the reason why we think it commonly a greater offence to sin against constitutions human, then against the divine.  Latt. 
We will enter no further into this, lest we want time for the rest, but let us prosecute our purpose,  Arch. 
Let it be so, let us leave this for some other time, and tell me now what was the reason that the just should suffer for sinners. It is likely that in Rome there was many good men, that neither were partakers of the vices, nor in fault for the wars and yet suffered jointly with the bad.  Latt. 
The bad received punishment for their wickedness, and the good vexations in this world to attain the greater glory in the next.  Arch. 
At least they should have had some respect unto the Spaniards and Almains, and other nations that were Vassals and servants to the Emperor, but they sacking the Spanish Church of S. james, and the house of Don Pedro de salmanca Ambassador of Don Ferdinando king of Hungary, & the house of Don Antonio de salmanca that now is Bishop of Gurcense. They left neither house, Church, nor man, that was in Rome unsacked or ransomed, even the Secretary Perez himself, who was resident at Rome in the behalf of the Emperor.  Latt. 
Even in this alone ye might know it was a manifest judgement of God, & no humane action, neither executed by the will or commandment of the Emperor, seeing they took no regard, no not of his own Subjects and servants.  Arch. 
You say truth, but is it not a horrible thing, that Christians should sell & ransom Christians as those soldiers did?  Latt. 
Yes surely, it is a horrible thing indeed, but it is so common a matter among men of war, as we have no cause to marvel at any thing they did there, where they were wont not only to sell and ransom men, but even their souls also.  Arch. 
What their souls, and how so?  Latt. 
That will I tell you, but in your ear.  Arch. 
Why, there is no body here.  Latt. 
I care not for that, come hither.  Arch. 
Even so? now I understand you.  Latt. 
And do you not think I have reason.  Arch. 
Yes surely and that very great, and now do I know that God hath suffered this even to the end that we should have knowledge of our error. But now to tell you of the other Cardinals that were in Rome, and could not together with the Pope escape into the Castle of S. Angelo: how they were ta'en, and ransomed, and their persons full ill favouredly handled, being drawn by the streets of Rome bore legged, among those Almains, that it was the greatest misery in the world to see them, especially when men remembered the Pomp wherein they were wont to go to the Palace, and of the multitude of servants that attended them when they passed by the Castle.  Latt. 
Surely this was indeed a horrible thing, but yet you are to consider that this was their own seeking, seeing they consented the Pope should make wars upon the Emperor, and then breaking the truce made with Don Hugo, suffered the same in the name of the College to be violated, and the most horrible abominations to be committed that ever were heard of. And how could you think but God would chastise you for it.  Ar. 
But alas what could they do, if the Pope would have it so?  Latt. 
After they had done all their diligence to persuade him, if they could not prevail, or have done him any good, they might have gotten them out of Rome, and not have been partakers of so great wickedness, seeing the gates stood open, know ye not, that Agentes, & Consentientes pari pena puniuntur? and aswell perhaps their own sins on the other side deserved it, if not ask M. Pasquine.  Arch. 
No no, I need not ask him, I know that aswell as Master Pasquine.  Latt. 
If you know that, ye need not marvel at that you saw, but only that God of his infinite bounty should so long dissemble and bear with them.  Arch. 
But what say you of the mockery they made of them? An Almain clothing himself like a Cardinal went riding about Rome in his pontificalibus and a bottle of Wine on the pumell of his Saddle. And then a Spaniard in the same manner with a Courtesan behind him, was it possible in the world to make a greater mockery.  Latt. 
But let us consider whether it were not a greater shame and mockery of the dignity of a Cardinal, having taken his hat, to do the works of a Soldier or worse: or for a Soldier to take a Cardinal's hat to counterfeit the Cardinal, though the one and the other be nought, yet can ye not deny me, but that the first is the worst, yea and more prejudicial to the sea Apostolic.  Arch. 
It is true, but for conclusion, the Cardinals are men, and cannot leave to do like men, but this other is to abandon all reverence and obedience to such as it is due, without which no commonweal can stand.  Latt. 
And with that would we be well contented, that the Cardinals were men, and did not many times show themselves worse than men. But tell me I pray you the Apostles were they not men too?  Arch. 
Yes, but they were upholden by the holy Ghost.  Latt. 
And let us see the holy Ghost that is now, is it not the very same that was then.  Arch. 
Yes.  Latt. 
And if they would desire it should it be denied them.  Arch. 
Noe.  Latt. 
Why do they not then request it?  Arch. 
Because they have not done it.  Latt. 
Theirs then is the fault, as you may see, and from henceforth they may know how great an abomination it is, that they being the pillars of the Church, have done works much worse than Soldiers, and yet you think it a more abominable matter for Soldiers to wear their habits. But why do you tell me nothing of the Bishops.  Arch. 
Why would you have me tell you of them, they were handled even as others, I will tell you that I saw among many honourable persons that they had taken and carried to the market place to be sold, the Almains led a Bishop of their own nations which stood upon election to have been Cardinal.  Latt. 
What, to be sold?  Arch. 
And what marvel, yea even with a bough in his Forehead, as they do when they sell beasts, and when they could find none to buy them, they played for them at dice, what think you of this gear?  Latt. 
Very ill: and yet I tell you this is not without a mystery. Tell me which esteem you more a Soul, or a body?  Arch. 
A Soul without comparison.  Latt. 
But how many Souls than have you sold in this world.  Arch. 
Why how is it possible to sell Souls?  Latt. 
Have you not read in the apocalypse that they counted the Souls among their other Merchandise. He that selleth a-Bishoprick, he that selleth a Benefice with cure of Souls, doth not he sell the Souls of his Subjects?  Arch. 
Surely you say most true, these things I never liked of, neither of giving benefices to pension with condition of Redemption at so much in the hundred, which is nothing else but to go about to deceive God Almighty.  Latt. 
In good faith was this their trick to deceive, and in this manner? how many souls have you seen played at dice?  Arch. 
Infinite.  Latt. 
Now do you see, or hereby you may see and know your error, and need not marvel that those soldiers that have accustomed to live by robbery should sell Priests, seeing yourselves sold benefices, neither yet if they sold Bishops seeing yourselves sold Bishoprics, and the one is so much more grievous than the other as the Soul is more precious than the Body: but rather you should allow well of them seeing they sold never a Cardinal.  Arch. 
Was it not enough that they did ransom them, and made composition for their houses and all they had in Rome, that nothing remained free.  Latt. 
Yourselves will not remember those purses of ours that you have emptied with your compositions, and therefore marvel you not if they also forget yours. Have ye not read in the apocalypse. Restore unto her even as she hath rendered unto you, double their doublings according to their works, even in the pot they have mingled for you mix them double, even so much as they have glorified and delighted themselves, so much give them in torments and sorrow, because God is strong that hath judged her. What think you, are not these the very judgements of God?  Arch. 
My very flesh doth tremble in hearing of it: But I pray you tell me, wherefore or to what purpose serveth the loss and spoil of so much money, as it is said the sack of Rome amounted unto by ransoms and compositions above 15. millions of Ducades.  Latt. 
What call you this spoil and loss? in good faith I count it rather gain.  Arch. 
And why gain?  Latt. 
Because for these many years all the money of Christendom went to Rome, where it was consumed and lost, but now it is diverted and found elsewhere.  Arch. 
And which way?  Latt. 
The money it got by pleas, by garboils, by brabbles, by benefices, by pensions, by spoils, by first fruits, by Bulls, by indulgences, by confessionaries, by compositions, by dispensations, by excommunications, by curses, by fulminations, by agravations and redagravations, by connonizations, & such like exactions, the Soldiers have taken as husbandmen and labourers to sow round about the world.  Arch. 
Oh black laborrers that served to destroy Rome in such sort, as it will not turn to be Rome again these 500 years.  Latt. 
O would to God that were so.  Arch. 
What?  Latt. 
That Rome would not turn again to those vices it had, nor that therein should rain no more so small charity, and love and fear of God.  Arch. 
But what had the sacred palace merited, and those Chambers and painted hauls, that was the most lamentable sight in the World to see them made stables for horses and all things in them utterly defaced.  Latt. 
In deed sir you say well, and great reason it were that the whole City suffering sack and spoil, that place should be preserved, from whence all the ill council proceeded.  Arch. 
But then the Prince of the Apostles Church, and all the other Temples, Churches and Monasteries of Rome, who is able to recount how they were handled and raunsacked, so as there remained in them neither Gold nor silver, nor other thing of valiew, but all was by those Soldiers rob and spoiled, & is it possible that God can like that his own Churches should be so handled and ransacked, and things to his honour dedicated, so rob?  Latt. 
Surely sir this is a thing indeed so soul and wicked, as it cannot be but condemned of any. Nevertheless if ye look well into it, ye shall find even in these things that have been dedicated to the service of God so much superstition, & the people therein so much abused, that I marvel not if God have permitted this and much more to the end there may be in those matters some moderation. The Merchant thinks after he hath gotten together an infinite quantity of money, that all the ill he hath done or shall do shall be forgiven him. If he build a church or a Monastery, or give a Lamp or a Chalice to a Church: and in this also do they deceive, that they seem to give that for God's sake, which is rather for the most part given for a certain pride, or for a certain worldly vain glory, as is manifest by the arms that commonly every one putteth on the things they give, and putting their trust in these things they think that now they need no longer live like Christians, and albeit this be an extreme error, yet are they not ashamed to admit it, so as thereby they make there profit by it, not considering in the mean time the injury they do to Christian Religion.  Arch. 
And why an injury?  Lattan. 
Do you not think it an injury, yea and a very great injury, that we being Christians and instructed from God himself should be ignorant of that knowledge, which many Heathens only by the light of natural reason had attained of God. For they had attained to this knowledge, that it was no true service of God to offer him any corruptible thing. They had attained, that unto a bodiless substance such as God is, we ought not to offer any bodily thing for a principal offer, nor as a thing that should be very grateful unto him. They said that such knew not what thing God was, that supposed he took pleasure in the possession of such things which many wise and good men thought a commendation in themselves to esteem little as jewels and riches: And yet we Christians are so blind as we think our God is greatly served with these corrupt and corporal matters.  Arch. 
By this means you would have men do no service to God, neither in building of Churches nor in offering Challeces, and such other ornaments.  Latt. 
I say he doth better and more true service to God which fitteth his soul with such virtues as God commandeth to the end he may come and dwell in him, than he that buildeth a church, yea though it were made of gold, and as great as that of Toledo for God to dwell in, when in the mean time by vices he maketh God a stranger to his own soul, albeit his intention therein were the best even in the world: & I say that it is a very great error to think that we please God by offering Gold or Silver when it is done with an intention to be praised for it, or for any other vain respect. And I say that God is better served if in steed of that we give unto Churches which are but dead Temples, we did bestow the same on the poor to relieve their necessities, seeing we know they are the living Temples of God.  Arch. 
By this reason we should have neither Churches nor any other ornaments to serve God.  Latt. 
What should we have no Churches? Yes surely I think we should have many more Churches, for having many good Christians more: of these any two or three being joined together in his name should be a Church, yea and besides that, although the lewd would not build Churches or Monasteries, think you that there would want good Men to do it? But let us behold this universal World, is it any thing else then a beautiful Church, wherein God dwelleth? What is the Sun but a Lamp lighted to shine unto the Ministers of the Church? What is the Moon? What be the Stars, but Candles which burn in this Church of God. Would you yourself desire another Church? Doth not the Apostle say, the Temple of God is holy, which you yourselves are, would you have other Candles to lighten this church, you have the spirit, you have understanding, you have reason, and do you not think that these be good Candles?  Arch. 
Yes but yet no man sees them.  Latt. 
And you, have you seen God? Behold brother seeing God is indeed invisible he will be principally honoured with things invisible, God will not be paid or contented with gold nor with silver, neither standeth in any need of these like things, seeing he is Lord of all, he seeketh nothing but hearts. Will you see this, Seeing God is omnipotent, If he would, could he not in a moment make an hundred thousand temples more sumptuous and more rich than the temple of Solomon?  Arch. 
Yes that is clear.  Latt. 
I pray you what service should you do him then, in giving that he hath already, and not yielding that unto him which he requireth. Let us see if God delight in Temples, if God delight in gold, if God delight in silver, why doth he not take all, since all is his.  Arch. 
Marry sir, because he would have us of our own good wills, to offer it, to the end we might that way have mean to merit?  Latt. 
What merit is it to give unto God that he lest esteemeth, when ye will not render that he requireth.  Arch. 
Now I perceive you would not have us retain the Churches we have, nor that they should take ornaments.  Latt. 
I say I would not have these things done for vain glory, neither would I that to honour a Church of stones, we should leave to honour the Church of God which is our soul, I would not, that to build an altar, we should forbear to secure a poor body, or to repair tables or dead images, we should leave the poor naked, which be the lively images of jesus Christ, neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any duty bound to do, neither yet that we should give men to understand, that the Lord is served and pleased with the possession of these things, that every wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himself, not to esteem. Tell me, why did jesus Christ contemn all the riches and wealth of this world?  Arch. 
Because we should likewise by his example value it as nothing.  Latt. 
Why then do we seek to present unto him these things, as matters very precious and grateful, seeing himself we know contemned them, and would also that we should contemn them, and not rather take care to present our minds and souls pure and clear from all vices and sins, this being the most precious and acceptable offering that we can present.  Arch. 
I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young.  Latt. 
Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus rob, that we might evidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be rob, neither yet doth he esteem any thing corruptible, to the end that hereafter we may rather present unto him living then dead temples, And that we should offer up unto him hearts and wills before gold and silver, and that we serve him with such things as he commandeth, rather than with such vanity.  Arch. 
Yea tell me a thing that I never heard of, but seeing it is so, tell me how and wherewith we ought to serve him.  Latt. 
This is an other matter a part, whereof we may confer an other tune more at our good leisure, but now I pray you proceed on.  Arch. 
Even as you will, but what will you say, that the very temples where God was wont to be served and honoured, were become stables for Horses, what a thing was it to see the very Church of Saint Peter, both on the one side and the other, all full of Horses, even to think of it, it breaks my heart.  Latt. 
Certainly, it was a thing that no good man could like of, and yet many times we see, that necessity causeth things that by the law is prohibited, and in time of war these and far worse matters are commonly done, whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the war.  Arch. 
This is a gentle excuse.  Latt. 
And why not, and do you not also think that he that draweth a greater and worse filthiness than that, into a place more holy than that, doth he not commit a greater abomination.  Arch. 
This is clear.  Latt. 
Then tell me if you have read the holy Scripture, have ye not found in it, that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the hands of men, and that every man is that temple wherein God dwelleth.  Arch. 
Yes sometimes.  Latt. 
Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone, where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not, or to make it of our souls, which are the true temples of God?  Arch. 
This is clear, that of our souls were the worse, but how can that be.  Latt. 
Demand you how, why what call you a Stable?  Arch. 
A place where Beasts rest.  Latt. 
But what call you Beasts?  Arch. 
Brute Beasts without reason.  Latt. 
And are not vices brute and void of reason.  Arch. 
Yes without doubt, and much worse than brute beasts.  Latt. 
Thus is it manifest, that it is far greater abomination to bring vices that are much worse than brute Beasts, into the Soul which is the true Temple where God dwelleth, then to bring horses into a Church of stone.  Arch. 
Surely I think that true.  Latt. 
Hereby may you now know, how blind your understanding was in Rome, that meeting daily by the streets, men that manifestly had their souls the stables of vices, of that you made no account, and because you saw in case of necessity, horses in the Church of Saint Peter, you thought it an horrible abomination, and broke your heart to think on it, And yet your heart was never broken, to see such multitude of Souls full of such filthy and abominable sins, and God by whom they were made and redeemed, banished out of them, surely your religion is a gentle religion.  Arch. 
You have great reason, but yet consider I pray you, that which Saint Paul spoke, that God dwelleth not in Temples made with hands of men, was to be understanded of that time, wherein he spoke it, for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth.  Latt. 
You say truth, but have not you confessed unto me that vices are worse than beasts.  Arch. 
Yea and so I say still.  Latt. 
Why then, he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse than Beasts, is he not worse than he that bringeth into the church a troup of Horses.  Arch. 
It seems so to me, but these beasts are invisible.  Latt. 
What? will you say that God cannot see men's vices.  Arch. 
Yes God can see them, but men cannot, but these horses we may all see.  Latt. 
By this reason ye would make it a less abomination to offend God then men, and then ye would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God, so burdened with wickedness, because men see it not, you aggravate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church, in that time of necessity, because they are visible unto men. But mark sir I pray you, God is not offended with the bad savours wherewith men are offended, The Soul wherein vices are rooted, that is it wherewith God is offended, and therefore he requireth that this soul be most clear of vices and sins, and many times he hath so commanded us. And therefore ye take all things the wrong way: ye take great care to keep neat and clean the material Temples, and the true Temple of God which is your souls, you keep it so full of vices and abominable sins, that they neither see God, nor know what thing he is.  Arch. 
Now as God save me you have the greatest reason in the world, but if you had seen the Soldiers how they carried along the streets, the poor Nuns taken out of their monasteries, and other Virgins taken out of their Father's houses you would have had the greatest compassion in the world.  Latt. 
This is a matter so common among Soldiers and men of war, that albeit in mine opinion, it be indeed much more grievous than all the rest joined together, we make scarcely any account of it, as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin, which is the living temple, where jesus Christ dwelleth, than a church of stone or wood, wherefore the fault hereof must not only be laid to the charge of those Soldiers, but much more unto you, who began and raised this war, and were the cause that they have done that they did: verily if the war were cause of no other ill than this, even for this alone you ought to leave it.  Arch. 
The Registers and Records of the Apostolic Chamber, of the Bulls and supplications, and those of the Notaries and process are all destroyed and defaced.  Lattan. 
Those I think surely God did permit, that together with vice we should give over all suits and pleas for matters Ecclesiastical. For seeing these benefices are executed by Clarks, and the first & chief charter of a Clerk should be charity, how doth he hold charity that goeth to suit with his neighbour?  Arch. 
And why not?  Latt. 
Because that charity is of that nature, that if it met with any of these suits, it would rather lose the benefice then stand in controversy with his neighbour.  Arch. 
This were very perfection.  Lattan. 
And so should all the Clergy be men of such perfection.  Arch. 
All men cannot attain to this perfection, but I pray you whereupon should so many Auditors, Proctors, Advocates, registers, and other officers feed, if there were no suits & pleas?  Lat. 
Let them be Tailors, Water-bearers and Cowkeepers, and not defrawd us utterly of all Christian charity.  Arch. 
And this is a gentle charity of yours that so honourable persons should take so base occupations, but I pray you what should we do with the suits already commenced?  Latt. 
Let the benefice be bestowed on the most worthy of them that are in suit for it, or taken from them both, and given to a more worthy, and that could deserve it better.  Arch. 
By this means we should have no justice.  Latt. 
Yes much more justice, for benefices should be bestowed on such persons, as should do that they were ordained for.  Arch. 
And now do they not their duties?  Latt. 
No surely, for these benefices are the goods of the poor, and while you wast them in brabbles among Proctors and Doctors, the poor die for want.  Arch. 
Ye have many indeed that spend their livings that way and some much worse, as yourself I know can be a good witness. But whom would you have to be the judge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of Clerks to give or take from them their benefices.  Latt. 
Every Bishop in his own Diocese, so as they would better examine and know the persons.  Arch. 
Well, but ye have many Bishops that have not learning enough, nor knowledge to do this.  Latt. 
And therein is there another sin committed, for such should not be admitted to be Bishops, but other persons thereto deputed that were able.  Arch. 
Will ye have me tell you the truth, even that way too all would go by favour.  Latt. 
Think not so there are a number of wise Bishops and men of good conscience, and others would follow their example. And in truth I think this would be the best remedy till there be some other more perfect reformation in the Church.  Arch. 
And for pleas that are upon secular matters, what would you have done?  Latt. 
If I were a Prince I would either divide it between them, or give it all to the worthiest and honestest.  Arch. 
Do you not see that hereby you would pervert and overthrow all justice?  Lattan. 
Will you have me tell you my mind plainly, God created all things for the use and service of man, but the administration thereof rather to one man then an other, because they should bestow them where most need was, and it is good reason that such as have impart with such as want. And it is good justice, that he have the administration of most, that best knows how to use them, and contrary manifest injustice.  Arch. 
By this means you would go about to make a new world.  Latt. 
No, but I would establish the good, and remove the quite out of it.  Arch. 
So long might I live till you had gone through with such an enterprise.  Latt. 
God send the Emperor Charles life, and then shall you see whether he will go through withal.  Arch. 
But tarry, for yet have ye not heard all. Never since the emperors Army entered Rome, till the time that I departed, which was the twelfth of june, there was not a Mass said in Rome, nor all that time heard we a bell Ring, nor a Clock.  Latt. 
The bad became little better by hearing of Mass when they did it without devotion or reverence, and the good would do that in Spirit, which they could not do with their Body, but how chanceth the Priests and Friars would say no Mass?  Arch. 
By God, and that is a gentle question. Did not I tell you at the beginning there was not a Priest or Friar in Rome that durst show himself in other garments than such of a Soldiers as I were?  Latt. 
And why so?  Arch. 
Because the Almains so soon as they saw a Friar, or a Priest in the steetes they would give the word and cry out, a Pope, a Pope, kill, kill.  Latt. 
As God shall help me I do now remember, that when I was in Rome, there were many Prophecies that foretold of this persecution of the Clergy, and that it should be even in this emperors time.  Arch. 
That is indeed most true?  Latt. 
And why then would you not amend?  Arch. 
Why? who would then have believed that it should have proved true?  Latt. 
That would any man that had well considered the state of all things at Rome.  Archd. 
But besides all this, there was such an extreme stink in all the Churches, that no man could endure to tarry in them.  Latt. 
A stink and whereof?  Arch. 
The Soldiers had opened many Sepultures hoping to have found treasure in them, but after they were opened they found nothing but the dead Carcases.  Latt. 
Was it not much that you suffered of that perfume in telling of the money that ye exacted for burying of the dead.  Arch. 
Now you are disposed to jest.  Latt. 
No in good faith but I tell you truth, that seeing you of the Clergy were not ashamed to take tribute of the dead, a thing that even among the Gentiles was held most foul, as little should you have loathed to have entered to have prayed to God for them.  Arch. 
Well you thought ye had done, but there remaineth yet worse matter for you to resolve, for I have kept the worst, and most grievous for the last.  Latt. 
Well tell it me.  Arch. 
They left no Relics unsacked, and spared not to take the Gold and Silver with their sacrilegious hands, wherewith those Relics were covered, that it was the most horrible abomination in the world to see these Rascals to enter those places, whereunto Bishops, yea Cardinals, yea the Popes themselves scarcely durst enter: And to take those heads and arms of the Apostles and of the happy saints, I cannot imagine what good could grow unto Christendom by such an abominable boldness and contempt.  Latt. 
Surely it was in deed a foul action, but I pray you tell me after they had taken the Gold and Silver, what did they with the bones?  Arch. 
The Almains threw them down, some in the Church yard, some in the holy Field, others drew them to the houses of the Prince of Orange and other Captains, and the Spaniards as the people most religious drew them all to the house of john de Vrbina.  Latt. 
What, so despoiled?  Arch. 
See what you doubt, I myself saw one basketfull in the house of the same john de Vrbina.  Latt. 
And do you take this for the most heinous?  Arch. 
This is clear.  Latt. 
But come hither, is not one body living worth an hundred dead?  Arch. 
Yes.  Latt. 
Then much more grievous was the death of those 4. thousand men which you speak of, then the sack of these Relics.  Arch. 
And why so?  Latt. 
Because the Relics are dead bodies, and the men were living, and yourself have already acknowledged, that one such is worth an hundred of the other.  Arch. 
You say true, but these were the bodies of holy men, and so were not the other.  Latt. 
So much the worse, for the souls of these saints feel not the bad handling of their bodies, they being now in bliss: but these wicked ones dying in sin go to hell, and so perish both Soul and body.  Archb. 
It is as you say, but nevertheless it is an horrible thing that in our days we should see such a bold and outrageous action.  Latt. 
Surely so it is, and yet is it not without cause, that God hath suffered it, for the deceits were great that they used with these Relics to beguile the simple people, and to get their money from them, for ye have many Relics that they will show you in two or three several places, as if you go to Dura in Almanie, they will there show you the head of Saint Anne, the mother of our Lady, and the very same they will show you also at Lions in France, So that manifest it is that one or both are false, unless they would have us believe also that our Lady had two mothers, or Saint Anne two heads. And one or both these being counterfeit, is it not a great wickedness thus to deceive the people, and to worship a dead carcase that perhaps was of some thief hanged. But tell me which think you to be the greatest inconvenience, either that we should want the body of Saint Anne, or that under pretence of that relic, they should make you worship the carcase of some common woman.  Arch. 
Surely I had rather there should neither be that relic nor any other, then that they should make me worship a Sinner instead of a Saint.  Latt. 
Nay would you not rather that these bodies of Saint Anne, at Dura and Lions, were put in a Sepulture and never showed, then that so many people should be abused by them?  Arch. 
Yes surely.  Latt. 
And of this sort, ye had an infinite number of Relics in the world, and little should be our loss, if we had none of them at all, and would to God the inconveniences were so remedied. The foreskin of our Saviour cut off in circumcision, I have seen in Rome and in Burgos, and the very same they will show you also at our Lady's Church in Antwerp. Likewise the head of Saint john Baptist, ye may see both in Rome and at Amians in France. But the Apostles if we will count them, albeit there were indeed but twelve, and one of them not to be found, and an other in the Indians, yet shall we find above 24. of them in our part of the world. The Nails of the cross Eusebius writes were three, and one of them Saint Helen the mother of the Emperor Constantine threw into the Adriatic sea to assuage a tempest, an other she caused to be cast into an helmet for her Son, and of the third she caused a bridle to be made for her horse, and yet have you in Rome one, and an other in Milan, and an other in Coloine, and an other in Paris, and an other in Lions, and I wots not how many elsewhere, Then for the cross, if all the pieces which they show thereof through Christendom, were gathered together, ye should have wood enough to lad a Charects. And of the teeth that Christ changed when he was a Child, even in France alone ye have at least five hundred. Then of the milk of our Lady, of the heir of Marie Magdelen, and the teeth of Saint Christopher, there are relics innumerable. And then even of the uncertainty of these things, it is a great shame to see and hear what themselves give out to the people. Myself last day in a very ancient Abbey was showed a table of their Relics, and there amongst other things it named a piece of the River of Cedron. I demanded whether it were of the water or of the Stones of the River, they told me I must not jest at their Relics, an other was of the earth, whereupon the Angel did appear to the Shepherds, but I durst not ask them what they meant thereby. If I should tell you of a number of their ridiculous and impious things which they will tell they have. As of the wing of Saint Gabriel, of the penitence of Mary Magdalen, the breath of the Mule and Ox, of the shadow of the staff of Saint james, of the doublet of the Trinity: a number of other things like to these. It were enough to make us burst with laughing. Only I will tell you, how within these few days in a collegiall Church they showed me a rib of the holy Saviour, whether they have any other saviour than jesus Christ, or whether he left any rib here behind them, let them look.  Arch. 
These things indeed, as you say, are rather to be laughed at then lamented.  Latt. 
You have reason, and therefore I come to the other things which be uncertain, yea and if they were certain, yet are they stumbling blocks, to make a man commit Idolatry, for they cause us to hold them in so great reverence, as even in Aquisgrane, albeit they have no other relic but a pair of old breeches, which they say were S. joseph's, which they show not but every five years once, there goeth thither an infinite number of people to behold them, as a thing divine, and of these matters we make so great account, as if in one Church on the one side there stand in a shrine of Gold the slippers of saint Christopher, and on the other side the holy Sacrament, the people will rather choose to go say their prayers before the slippers of S. Christopher then before the sacrament, and this being so great a wickedness, they do not only, not reprove it, but most willingly admit and allow it, in respect of the great profit they gather by it, and the fine devices they have invented for it. Let us see then which were the greater inconvenience, either to have no relics at all in the world, or to have men thus abused by them?  Arch. 
I cannot tell, neither would I trouble my head with these profound matters.  Latt. 
And how profound, which think you of greatest value, either the soul of some simple body, or the body of a Saint.  Arch. 
This is out of question, that a soul is much better than a body.  Latt. 
Why then what reason have you (in seeking to honour the body of some saints, as they say, which perhaps notwithstanding is the body of some thief) to put in peril so many souls?  Arch. 
You say the truth, and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort.  Latt. 
Very well, and yet even these that should admonish are many times themselves ignorant, And yet besides all this, why should you put any one soul in danger without necessity. Let us see if you would in this Town go to our Lady's church of Prado, and knew not the way, would you not think it a very great inhumanity, if any man would direct you through the River with great danger to drown you therein, when you might more safely and more quickly have gone over by the Bridge.  Arch. 
Yes surely.  Latt. 
And wherefore then do you seek after Relics?  Arch. 
Because many times they stir me to devotion.  Latt. 
And devotion to what end desire you?  Arch. 
To salve my soul.  Latt. 
Seeing then you may save your Soul without peril of damning it, would you not rather choose the more safe way.  Arch. 
Yes, and our confessors also say it is a sin for us wittingly to put ourselves in danger to sin.  Latt. 
They say therein the very truth.  Arch. 
But yet what way have you of greater safety?  Latt. 
The same which Christ himself taught, to love God above all things, and to put in him our whole trust.  Arch. 
You say the truth. But because I cannot do that, I go about to do this other.  Latt. 
This is a great heresy to say you cannot do it, desire at least of God grace to do it. But if you will say you do request it, and that God will not do it, you make God a liar, who saith, Ask and you shall have, And farther what a blindness is this, do you think to go to heaven without fulfilling of the commandments of God? albeit you have an Arm of a Saint, or the piece of the Cross, or the whole Cross in your house, you may be an enemy to the cross, and do you think to save yourself by the Cross?  Arch. 
Surely I was deceived.  Latt. 
Then behold the common sort have so much more just cause to complain on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions, to put them in danger of their souls, than you of him that should guide you through the river with danger to drown you, as the soul is more worthy than the body.  Arch. 
Well but yet the common sort are more easily by things visible induced and directed to the invisible.  Latt. 
You say truly, and therefore hath jesus Christ left us his holy sacrament of the Altar, and having this, I know not wherefore we have need of any other.  Arch. 
And the true relics indeed, would you not have them kept and garnished with Gold and Silver.  Latt. 
No surely.  Arch. 
Wherefore.  Latt. 
Not to give occasion of such another spoil, as this of Rome, nor yet to make men think, that the Saints are pleased to possess these things, that those which are good men do glory to contemn.  Arch. 
You say well, but do you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with us for taking away the Gold and silver, wherein their bones be enclosed, and being so offended, may do us some hurt?  Latt. 
No, rather I think they would be very well pleased to see those things taken and employed on the poor, who many times perish for famine not having what to eat.  Arch. 
That understand not I unless you explain your meaning better.  Latt. 
I will show you plainly, that Saint which whilst he lived in this world, and had need of these goods, did nevertheless leave them and impart them to the poor for the love of Christ jesus, do you not believe that much more he would be pleased, to have the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to use them?  Arch. 
Yes surely I think so, for we that be no Saints, yet when we die, and cannot carry our goods with us, we are well pleased to give them to the poor, and to divide them among Churches and Monasteries.  Lattan. 
Why then tell me wherefore should you think a Saint should be grieved to have that done with his goods now he is dead, which himself would have done if he were alive.  Arch. 
No surely I think a Saint would be very well pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead, which himself would have done if he were alive.  Latt. 
Then you see plainly, that the Saints who while they lived were so well pleased to distribute their own goods among the poor would now much more be pleased to help the poor with that silver and gold which good people have presented unto them after they were dead.  Arch. 
So God save me this reason is very good, and I believe you say herein also the very truth, and yet surely the common sort would be offended.  Lattan. 
No on my faith I dare assure you there would be no offence taken, if it were provided that such superstitious people as regarded more their Belly, than the Glory of Christ jesus should not go about to provoke them to offence.  Arch. 
Surely for this matter I hold myself fully satisfied.  Lattan. 
Thus you see how jesus Christ hath suffered that in Rome so great a Sack and spoil should be committed on Relics, to remedy the deceits that were committed by them.  Archde. 
Well, this I confess, so as you will also declare unto me touching the small reverence used towards the Images, what the reason should be that God would suffer that.  Latt. 
That I will tell you, neither will I deny that it was very ill done, but God hath permitted it not without very great cause, For you may see among the common people, yea, and even among many of the principal persons also, that they did so much repose themselves upon Images, and things visible, that they had no care at all of the invisible. In my Country a very good Man, a Divine, going a visitation of a Bishopric in the behalf of the Bishop, found in one Church an Image of our Lady, which they said did many Miracles, and was set over against an Altar of the Sacrament (in comparison whereof all Images in the World are less than nothing) And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breasts before that Image of our Lady. The good man when he saw so great an Ignominy, as was thereby done to our Saviour jesus Christ, conceived so great a grief as he took away that Image and broke it into pieces. The people so much were moved with this act, that they would have killed him, but GOD delivered him out of their hands. The Clergy of that Church being offended for their rents, that thereby they had lost, traveled with the people to complain to the Bishop, thinking he would presently send to burn the poor visitator. The Bishop (like a wise Man) understanding the matter how it passed, reproved the Visitor of the contempt he had committed in breaking the Image into pieces, but commended much his act in removing it from that place, so that seeing there was so few such good Visitors in Christendom, that would be aggrieved with the dishonour done to GOD, and to take away such superstitious, God permitted these Soldiers to commit that spoil you speak of, to the end that leaving all superstition we should in such sort honour Images, as we do not dishonour jesus Christ.  Archd. 
Surely this is a most Godly consideration and farther I promise you, there is great need of remedy in this matter especially in Italy.  Latt. 
Nay, even here also aswell as there: And if you will look well into this matter, you shall see the very same deceits in Images that were in Relics.  Archde. 
I know you say truly, but I could tell you of another matter, that even in thinking of it my flesh trembleth.  Latt. 
Tell it me, and be not afraid.  Arch. 
Can you imagine a greater wickedness, then to break open the Pixe of the Altar, and to let faule on the ground the holy Sacrament? Is it possible any good can come of this? Oh Christian ears that can endure to hear it.  Latt. 
Good God and have you seen this too?  Arch. 
No, but surely all men say it was so.  Latt. 
That which I have heard was that a Soldier took the Pixe of Gold and left the sacrament upon the Altar, and did not throw it down on the ground as you say, but howsoever, it was a marvelous boldness, and worthy of great correction: but in truth it is no new matter, but a thing that happeneth many times among Soldiers, and the fault is theirs which choose rather to live in war then in peace. But if it had never been heard of before do you think this to be the greatest abhomition that could be done? think you that it were not much worse to throw it into a dunghill?  Arch. 
How? into a dunghill.  Lattan. 
I will tell you, but first tell me which stinketh worst before GOD, a dead Dog that lieth upon a Dung hill, or a Soul that obstinate continueth in his sins.  Arch. 
A Soul, for Saint Augustine saith, Quod tollerabilius fetet, Canis putridus hominibus, quam anima peccatrix Deo.  Latt. 
Then you will not defy me that a sinful soul is a foul filthy dunghill.  Arch. 
No surely.  Lattan. 
Seeing then a Priest that rising in the Morning from his Quean (that I say no worse) of course goeth to say Mass. A Priest, I say, that holds his Benefice by Symmonye, and carrieth in his heart mortal rancour against his neighbour, that by right or wrong will heap up riches, becoming obstinate in these and other vices, yea in much more worse than these go every day to receive the Sacrament, do you not think that to let it fall in such an one, is much worse than to let it fall into a stinking Dounghill?  Arch. 
You talk to me in a new language, I know not what to answer you.  Lattan. 
I marvel not though truth seem to you a new language: But behold now how this is the cause that God hath suffered these things to be done, that Clerks seeing how great abomination it is to handle in this sort the Body of Christ might thereby know and remember that themselves have handled it much worse, that departing from their wicked manner of living, they might cleanse their Souls from vices, and beautify it with Virtues, that Christ might come to dwell in them, and not to keep him as they do, banished from them:  Arch. 
Now as God save me you have very well satisfied me in all my doubts, and I was even now marveling to see how blinded all men were in these external things without having regard to the internal.  Lattan. 
You have very great reason to marvel, for in very truth it is a great pity to see the false opinions wherein the common sort are drowned, and how backward we are to become Christians, and how contrary our works are to the Doctrine of Christ jesus, and how we are burdened with Superstitions, and in mine opinion all proceed from a pestiferous Avarice and pestilent Ambition which at this time reigneth much more among Christians, then in any other time: to what purpose do you think, do they persuade the people that an Image of Wood goeth to recover Prisoners, and returns all sweeting, but only to allure the simple sort to make offerings to that Image, to make thereof their own profit, neither have they any fear of GOD in this sort to abuse and deceive the people, as though our Lady had no other mean to redeem Prisoners, but to take with her a wooden Image. And albe it, this be a most ridiculous thing, yet do the common people by reason of their authoritte believe it, and in this manner they make men also believe, that if they cause so many masses to be said, with so many candles, at the second sorrow that you shall recover that you have lost, O wretched sinner, knowest thou not that in this superstition this cannot but be a work of the devil, And were it not better thou shouldest lose all that thou hast in the world, then that thou shouldest introduce into a thing so holy, a thing so wicked. Even of like account are these names, which you carry about your necks to escape death by fire, by water, and the hands of enemies, enchantments and charms made as the common people call them for men and beasts, I cannot imagine how we came into so great a blindness, that we are fallen into a manner of Gentility. He that will seek to honour a Saint, should travail to follow his holy virtue, but now in lieu thereof, we chase Bulls upon his day, besides many other abuses which are committed, we say and hold it a great devotion, to kill four Bulls upon S. Bartholomew's day, and if we kill them not, we are afraid that he will spoil our Vines, what greater gentility can you wish then this? what is it less to hold devotion in killing four Bulls on his day, then to sacrifice four Bulls unto S. Bartholomew? I do not think it ill, that the people for recreation should assemble, chase, and kill Bulls on that day, but I think surely that it is a wicked thing, to think that by such acts we please God or his Saints: for in truth between killing of Bulls with such intent, and sacrificing of Bulls, I know no difference. Will you see another Heathenish custom, as plain as this, Behold how we have divided among our Saints even the very same offices that the gods of Paynims had, instead of Mars we have S. james and S. George. In lieu of Neptune, S. Elmas. In lieu of Bacchus, S. Martin. Instead of Aeolus, S. Barbola. in lieu of Venus, Magedelena. The charge of Esculapius we have parted among many, S. Cosme, and S. Daman have charge of common disceases, S. Roque and S. Sebastian of the pestilence, S. Lucy of the eyes, S. Polonya of the teeth, S. Aquida the Dugs, and of the other side S. Antony and S. Aloy of Beasts, S. Simon & judas of false witnesses, and S. Blas of those that neese, I know not to what end these inventions serve, and this distribution of offices, but to make us appear altogether Paynims, & to abandon the love and trust which in Christ alone we ought to repose, tormoiling ourselves in seeking such help of others, as he alone is able to give us, and thereof it also cometh, that some think because they recite a heap of Psalms, or a flock of Rosarys: others because they wear the habit of a Merced. Others because they eat no flesh on wensdays: others because they are clothed in Blue or yellow, that thereby they want nothing of perfect Christians, retaining nevertheless their envy still, their rancour, their avarice, and their ambition, and other vices, as entirely as if they had never heard what it is to a Christian.  Arch. 
And whence proceeds this as you think.  Latt. 
Nay enter me not into this Labyrinth, more perilous I think then that of Creta, let that alone for an other day, and tell me if in your opinion I have accomplished as much as at the beginning I promised.  Arch. 
I say you have performed it so fully, that I hold all well employed that I have lost in Rome, and all the troubles and travails I have sustained in this journey, seeing I have thereby gained such a day as this, wherein me thinks I have shaken off from myself a pestiferous cloud of abominable blindness and recovered the sight of the eyes of my understanding, which I had lost ever since I was borne.  Latt. 
Seeing then you know this, give thanks unto God, and endeavour yourself not to be ungrateful for the same, and considering you remain satisfied of all done there, it were reason you did also recount unto me that which passed at Rome until your departure.  Arch. 
That shall I do with a very good will: you are to understand, that after the Army entered into Rome, they placed a Guard on the Castle, that none should pass out nor in, and the Pope knowing the evident peril he stood in, and the small regard those Soldiers had of him he determined to take some composition with the emperors Captains, and therefore sent to parley with john Bartholomew de Gatevera, Regent of Naples, and gave him certain conditions, whereupon he was contented to render himself, to the end that on his part he might offer them to the Captains of the army: and although that in going too & to procure this agreement, he were shot throuh the Arm out of the Castle with an arqebus, yet before the end of five days after, the army entered Rome, the capitulation was concluded and signed on either part. Nevertheless in this mean time the Pope receiving news how the army of the legars' came to aid him he would not have that agreement executed.  Latt. 
Now surely, this me thinks was one of the most wicked things of all, ye have yet told me, had not poor Rome already suffered enough for his sake, but that he must endeavour utterly to destroy it. If the Army of the Legars should come, it was to secure him, it was clear, they must fight with our Army, and thereby great slaughter must ensue on either side, if then ours did vanquish, the Pope and his party should fall into greater peril, but if these did conquer them, must Rome be new sacked, why then had it not been better to have taken any accord, rather than having before seen so great mischief, to be yet the cause of many more murders of people, and of a new destruction.  Arch. 
Surely you have great reason, and much less inconveniences had it been to have accepted any conclution, than the damage that must have ensued by he secure of the Leaguers. But so soon as the emperors Army knew of this, they presently marched out of the Town into the field, with resolution to fight, But the Legars durst not come of the Island, where they had remained certain days, and the Castle still held out, hoping on that succour, or at least that some discord might fall out in the emperors Army the General being dead. But they ceased not all this while to make their Mines and trenches to win the Castle, yea albeit the Prince of Orange that then remained the chief commander, were also hurt with a shot. Then came Cardinal Collona, with the Lords Vespasian and Ascaino Collonna, and they did remedy some part of the evils that were committed. There came also the Viceroy of Naples, and Don Hugo di Moncada, and the marquess of Guasto, and the Lord of Alorcan, and many other commanders and Knights, with the Soldiers of the kingdom of Naples. And although in the mean time there ceased not shooting from the Castle, yet in the end the Pope understanding that the Legars army returned, and that there was no hope to be succoured from them, he accorded for to render up the Castle into the Emperor his hands, with these conditions, that all the people within the Castle should go freely whether they would, not taking any thing that was within the Castle, And for ransom of their persons and goods, the Pope promised to give 14. hundred thousand Ducats to pay the Soldiers.  Latt. 
And how so, was it not enough that they had rob before?  Arch. 
Yes sure it was enough, but that mought not be reckoned any part of their pay. And for security hereof, the Pope gave them in pledge that good Creature john mart Gibberto, Bishop of Verona, with three other Bishops, and jacob Salimato, with other two Merchants of Florence. And besides all this, consented to leave in the emperors power, till such time as they might know what his Majesty would command) the Castle Angelo and Ostia, and Civita Vechia, with the haven: and promised also to deliver the Cities of Parma and Placentia and Modena, And his Holiness with the 13. Cardinals that were in the Castle, went to the kingdom of Naples, even from thence to go see the Emperor.  Latt. 
Surely this was a good mean to do some good in Christendom.  Arch. 
So was it, but to tell you the truth, albeit they desired it should be so reported (because they thought it ill to hold the Pope and College of Cardinals against their will) they said it was their desire, but in Conclusion they were gentle Prisoners.  Latt. 
What say you then, that himself desired not to go to Naples?  Arch. 
Yes but all this was but to make a virtue of necessity, for seeing he sought to stay so many days in hope of succour from the Legars, do you not think, that if he mought have been at his own choice, he would not have been rather in the Army of the Legars, then where he now is.  Latt. 
I cannot deny unto you, but it is very likely, but what can you tell if afterwards he changed his mind.  Arch. 
Now certainly I cannot tell, but I believe it not, neither do I think it well, that the head of the Church should be handled in this manner.  Latt. 
Let us see then, is not a man that may avoid mischief bound to do it.  Arch. 
Who doubts that?  Latt. 
Should not he be blame worthy, that should give another cause to do ill.  Arch. 
He should be in the same fault, for Qui causam damni dat, damnum dedisse videtur:  Latt. 
You say very well, then behold, the Pope either is there with his will, or against his will: if with his will, then is all well that you complain of, but if against his will, then tell me wherefore would he be with the Army of the Leaguers.  Arch. 
Why that's plain to revenge himself of the insolency and hurts he had received.  Latt. 
Let us then see what would have fallen out.  Arch. 
What could have ensued but much discord, wars, murders, and damage through Christendom.  Latt. 
Then to avoid these so apparent mischiefs, do you not think it better that he should be in the power of the Emperor then elsewhere, albeit he should be there against his will, according to that we talked of before touching the Sun that kept his Father tied: and if the Emperor would have let him go where himself list, should not the evils have been justly imputed to the Emperor that would have ensued, seeing he gave the cause thereof.  Arch. 
I confess this too, but what will all both great & small say, but that the Emperor holds the Pope and Cardinal's prisoners.  Latt. 
This will ignorant persons say, whose judgement it is impossible to satisfy, whereas the wise and prudent knowing it to be for the good of Christendom, that the Pope should remain in the power of the Emperor, will hold it, and account it very well done, and will highly praise, the virtue and wisdom of his Majesty, yea even all Christendom may think themselves perpetually bounden for it.  Arch. 
As for me I could be well content that he should be wheresoever ye would have him, so as they would give me the possession of my benefices, but I cannot tell whether you consider how they stand excommunicate.  Latt. 
And why so?  Arch. 
Because they have apprehended and hold against his will the chief Pastor of the Church.  Latt. 
Behold sir he stands excommunicate that with a wicked meaning will not obey the Church. But he that for the common weal of all Christendom detaineth the people, and will not let him lose, only to avoid the evils which would follow upon his delivery. Believe me he doth not only stand not excommunicate, but also meriteth much at God's hands for it.  Archd. 
Surely this is a thing very likely and reasonable, but I know not whether our Canonists would grant you this.  Latt. 
That canonist that will not grant this, shall show himself void of judgement.  Arch. 
I believe so too, but at one thing I was very greatly displeased, that the Pope should presently give pardon to all the Soldiers of all whatsoever they had done.  Latt. 
And why are you aggrieved at that?  Arch. 
Because they remain all rich and pardoned, and we bewailing our losses and sorrows.  Latt. 
Do you think that pardon of valiew? as much did he to the Collonesi, he pardoned them first but after destroyed them. A gentle kind of pardon.  Archd. 
I cannot tell what I may believe, but that their souls were absolved, and their purses damned.  Latt. 
Why then did you not stand against it?  Arch. 
Yes, even there about we went to leave our Skin with our goods, things stood then in these terms, that you would pardon all past for that that was to come, if you had seen the Pope as I saw him.  Latt. 
Where?  Arch. 
In the Castle.  Latt. 
And why went you thither?  Arch. 
There were certain benefices fallen in my Country by the death of an neighbour of mine, and I went to demand them.  Latt. 
An extraordinary boldness was this surely: Were you not ashamed in such a time to importune him with suits?  Arch. 
No surely, for a shamefast man the Devil will soon chase out of the Palace, and many more were there to beg them aswell as I, and sure I had as leeve prevent as be prevented.  Latt. 
Well, I tell you again, that most terrible is the Avarice of the Clergy.  Arch. 
A wondrous matter I promise you: and wherefore do you suppose, do we of the Clergy come to Rome?  Latt. 
I thought it had been for devotion.  Arch. 
Yes iwis, now surely I was never in my life less devout.  Latt. 
Nor yet less a Christian.  Arch. 
Well Sir, even as it please you so let it be.  Latt. 
On my word, if I had been Pope you should not have benefices only for early rising, seeing that after so notable a persecution, you had not left your covetousness.  Arch. 
Yea even for this is God very good, that he would not give us you, but Clement the 7. who gave it me presently with a very good will, although I went in the habit of a Soldier as you see me.  Latt. 
Now I promise you this was even an immeasurable clemency, but tell me how found you him.  Arch. 
I found both him and all the rest of the Cardinals and others about him, so sad and sorrowful, that even in beholding of them, the tears burst out of mine eyes, He that had seen him go in his triumph with so many Cardinals, Bishops, protonotaries a foot, and himself carried in a seat borne by men, bestowing upon us all his holy blessings, that he seemed even a thing divine: and now to see him solitary, sad, afflicted, comfortless, committed to a Castle, and that above all, is in the power and hands of his enemies, and besides all this, to see the Bishops and other persons Ecclesiastical that came to visit him to be all in soldiers apparel, and that even in Rome the head of the Church should not have a man that durst go in the habit of an ecclesiastical person: I know not what heart can be so indurate, that hearing these things, should not be pierced with compassion.  Latt. 
Immeasurable God how profound are thy judgements? with how great clemency dost thou suffer us? with how great goodness dost thou call us? with how great patience dost thou tarry us? whilst that we with the continuation of our sins do provoke against ourselves even the rigour of thy justice, and consequently both in the one and in the other dost show us thy mercy & infinite goodness, for all o Lord we yield thee infinite thanks knowing that thou dost it not, but for our great good: for he that had seen the majesty of that Roman court, such and so great Cardinals & Bishops, such and so many Cannons, Protonotaries, Abbets, Deacons, & Archdeacon's, so many Chamberleins', some ordinary, some extraordidary, so many Auditors, some of the chamber, & others of the Chancery, so many Secretaries, so many Scribes, some of Bulls, some of Writes, so many Abreviators, so many Aduotates, Doctors, and Proctors, and a thousand other kind of officers as were in that Court, and to have seen them all come with that triumph and pomp to that Palace, who would have said we should have had such and so sudden a change as this I have now heard off. Now do I know that with the rigour of pain he doth recompense the delay of punishment.  Arch. 
Seeing also that in truth the Cardinals were feign to dismiss their families because they had nothing left to buy bread for them to feed upon.  Latt. 
Yet one thing doth comfort me that at least so long as they continue in this estate they shall the more lively represent those they should.  Arch. 
Who is that?  Latt. 
jesus Christ and his Apostles.  Arch. 
You say truth, but in this case I had rather represent Pope julio with his triumphs, but tell me I pray you how did the Emperor take these injuries that in Rome his Army had committed against the Church?  Latt. 
I will tell you: immediately after the certain news came of the evils that happened at Rome, the Emperor showing his compassion, caused the feasts that were made for the birth of his Son Don Philip to cease.  Arch. 
And do you think that it grieved him.  Latt. 
And what do you think?  Arch. 
Now surely I cannot tell, for on the one side I see things that should displease him, and on the other things that should content him, and therefore do I demand that question of you.  Latt. 
And I will tell you, The Emperor is surely even indeed a very good Christian, and doth so hold all his actions and accidents recommended and committed to the hands of God, as he taketh all chances in the best part, and therefore it comes, that we never see him either in prosperity overmuch to rejoice, or in adversity to be aggrieved, So that by his utter appearance, it is not possible for any man to judge, but surely I think, that in this, as in all other things he will not leave for to conform himself to that which shall please almighty God.  Arch. 
But in good faith sir, what think you now, his Majesty will do in a matter of so great importance as this, now in truth he had need of very good council, for if at this time he do reform the Church (seeing now all men know what need there is beside the service which he should do unto God, he shall attain even in the world the greatest fame and glory that ever Prince attained. And men will say even to the end of the world, that jesus Christ framed the Church, and the Emperor Charles which restored it, and if he do not this, albeit all fell out against his will, and that he had or have the best meaning in the world, it will not be possible to excuse him, but that there will fall into men's minds a very hard conceit of him, neither do I know what will be said of him after he is dead, nor what account he can give unto God, for having omitted and not known how to have used so notable and great an opportunity as now he hath to do unto God, so notable a service, and so incomparable a good unto the Universal commonweal of Christendom.  Latt. 
The Emperor as I told and tell you, is indeed a very true Christian, and very prudent, and hath about him persons very wise in his Council, I hope he will provide for all to the glory of God, and good of Christendom. But seeing you ask me this question, I will not forbear to tell you my opinion, and that is as touching the first. The Emperor should.  Porter. 
What now my masters, the Church was made to pray in, and not to prate in. Ye may go forth and please you for I will shut the door.  Latt. 
Well Father we will away by and by.  Porter. 
And you will not out I will lock you in.  Arch. 
That were a gentle piece of courtesy, but I think that Saint Francis hath given you no such commandment.  Porter. 
What care I for Saint Francis commanndements.  Latt. 
I believe you well Father, let us go we shall have some other time to finish that is left.  Arch. 
I would be wonderful glad to hear out that you began, but seeing it is thus, let us go a God's name, upon condition that we return hither again to morrow morning.  Latt. 
Nay let us rather meet at Saint Bennits, lest this Friar turn us out again.  Arch. 
You say well Sir, let it be even so, but in the mean time, Read I pray you this Prayer in manner of a new Pater noster, made by our Spaniards in couples that they sung even under the window of our high Bishop.  
Padre nuestro in quanto Papa,  
Soys Clemeynte sin que os quadre  
Mas Rennego yo deel padre,  
Que all bijo quita la Capa, etc.  
FINIS.