¶ A strong battery against the Idolatrous invocation of the dead Saints, and against the having or setting up of Images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any peril of idolatry, made dialogue wise by john Veron Psal. ●● call upon me in the day of ●hy trouble, & I will hear thee. john. ● I am the way, I am the truth, I ●m the life, no man comes unto the father but by me. ¶ To the right honourable, sir Nicholas Bacon knight Lord keeper of the great Seal of England, and one of the Queen's most honourable privy Counsel, john Veron wisheth grace, peace of conscience, and increase of godly honour, from god the father, through his son jesus Christ our Lord. SOme be of this opinion, right honourable sir, that those things that be in controversy, betwixt us & the Catholics are not of so great weight and importance that we ought therefore to stir up such tragedies, or make so much a do, sith that they confess one true living God with us, and his son jesus Christ, The common complaints of many people. do allow the scriptures of the old and new testament, and all the articles of our believe: But if all things be considered a right, and weighed with the even balance of god's word, it shallbe easy for any man to understand that it is not without a just cause that we do both dissent from them, and also most earnestly impugn their pernicious and damnable doctrine: and all their abominable errors and devil she opinions. For first and foremost, They do not confess god which do not confess him as he doth reveal himself in his word. it can not justly be said, that they do confess the only true living ●od, sith that they do not confess him as he doth setforth and reveal himself in his holy and sacred word, but do so confess him, that they do make of him a plain e●dole Herein then do we differ from them: that we do acknowledge and confess him, as he doth reveal himself unto v in his holy & sacred word where he fetteth forth himself unto us an omnisufficient god, and in whom only we ought to seek all manner of things that are necessary both for our bodies and souls. Psa. 89 The heavens are thine (say the scriptures) the earth also is thine, Psal cxlv. thou haste laid the foundation of the world, and all that therein is: How god revealeth himself in his word. all the kingdoms of the earth are thine. And thy kingome is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all ages. Thou fittest on the round bale or circle of the earth, and the inhabitants of it are as Locusts in thy sight. Thou makest to stand, and dost put to flight. And unless thou keepest the city, h● watcheth in vain, that doth keep it. All counsels and helps are from thee. But do not ou● adversaries most sacrilegiously, The sacrilege of the adversaries. robbing go● of his glory, attribute all those things to hy● dead creatures, I mean, to those that be already departed out of this world? what have they ●eft unto god? what help what aid and secure that they have need of, do they not crave at the dead: hands? The French men in their perilous wars and battles, do rather call upon Saint Denyle, than upon the mighty Ie●ou●h, the lord god of hosts. Saint denis of France Saint George of England. S. Andrew of Scottland. Saint james of Callycia. The English men had in stead of god Mars, whom the heathen worshipped for the god of Battles, that lustre knight Saint George of Cappadocia. The Scotes, their Saint Andrew. The Spaniards and Gallycians, have yet at this hour their holy Saint james, whom they do rather call upon, then upon the eternal and everliving god, in their most perilous affairs. They that travail by the Sea, have in stead of Castor and Pollux, their Saint Nicholas, The gods of idolatrous Marinets. unto whom they join fo a fellow helper that ●itle pretty one Saint Christophore, who by their description may be likened unto that mounstruous Poliphemus, which Virgil doth speak of. Do they not worship Saint Valesiane (as they do commonly call him) as the heathen had in times passed worshipped their Acolus, Valesian. whom jupiter had appointed to be king & ruler of storms and tempests? For they persuade themselves, Acolus. that if they do diligently worship him, he will keep of the hail from their corn, and from all other fruits of the earth, he will cease the ragiouse winds, and appease the tempests. Some other do attribute this office unto john and Paul. john & Paul. Saint Agathe must see their houses to be preserved from fire. Saint Agathe And therefore when there is any jeopardy of fire they do rather call upon her, than upon him that hath all his creatures at his beck and commandment. But because she is a woman and therefore frail and timorous, Saint Florinian. they have associated unto her saint Florinian, who being in complete harness, doth hold a pail for to cast water upon the fire, for to quench the burning? Sebastian & Rock do heal the pesstilence and potches. when god doth by his righteous judgement punish the world with pesstilence have they not their Saint Sebastian? And when they be smitten with botches sores and boils have they not their Saint Rock? more trust have they in those dead creatures, of whom we do doubt whether they be in heaven or not, than they have in the living god, the only autour of all health both of body & soul in their agues and severs saint Petronille. Petronille. Peter's daughter. Peter's daughter must be their physician. And no maru●●le. For▪ when our Saviour jesus Christ did heal her grand dame, she creeping in unawares did learn the art of medicine. Appoleyne Otilia. Touthlesse Appoleyne must help the touth ache▪ as blind Otilia bearing her eyes upon her book, being sallen out of her head▪ must help sore eyes. To be short, they have for all the parts of the body certain appointed Saints, as they have for every kind of cattle. Which thing they would not do, if they did confess and acknowledge god, as he doth reveal himself in the scriptures. For, Deut. vi. there we learn, that the Lord our god, is one God: That he doth all things with his divine providence, and that as all things, are of him by him and in him, so he is the only autour of life and death, of richesse and poverty, of wisdom and foolishness, of health and sickness. And sith that we are both his creatures and servants, and do owe ourselves wholly both body & soul unto him: How god ought to be confessed. is it not against all reason, that we should turn out selves from the creator unto the creatures? The heathen do the same. But we ought to be Christians, and to cleave only to Christ, and by him to be made one with the father. If the saints do all things, if they have the government, tuition defence & protection of cities and towns, if the standing manfully in battle, the running away, and victory, if the curing of diseases, if the benefit of health be in their hands, if they have power over the winds storms & tempests, if they possess all the limbs of a man's body, what doth god in the mean while? Where is his divine providence? will they say that god being weary, doth commit the government of his creatures unto other? But no such infirmities is god subject unto. It is evident and pla●ne then, right honourable sir, that they do make of him a plain Idol, yea they make of him no god at all. For take his divine providence away or make him subject to any infirmities, and then he is no god. It is far otherwise with us. How the faithful do confess god. For being instructed by the scriptures and word of god, we do wholly depend upon his fatherly providence, using with most hearty thankfulness, all those lawful means that he hath appointed, and ordained for us, and so give him only the whole glory of the government of all things, for the commodity and profit of his chosen and elect people. A denial of god. Again: is not this a denial of god, to go about to worship and serve him otherwise then he himself doth appoint, and prescribe in his holy and sacred word? Socrates being an heathen, Socrates doth plainly say, that in religion it is required, that every god be worshipped after his own will, and not after the will of his worshippers. If this did take place in false religion, how much more ought it to take place in true religion? I mean in that religion, that god hath set fourth unto us by his eternal and everlasting wisdom? Deut. xii These are his words: Ye shall not do every man that thing that seemeth unto you best. I am the Lord my god, that thing only, that I command thee, see that thou dost it add nothing unto it, and minish nothing from it. Again: Math xv They worship me in vain teaching the doctrines and precepts of men. But how well these things have been and are observed of our friends the catholics, let your honour be judge. Those ways that god willbe worshipped and served, they have stoutly contemned, & chose every day strange kinds of worshipping and service, which the Lord doth not once mention of in the scriptures. This then is an other difference betwixt them and us, How the god●y do worship god that we will have god to be honoured worshipped and served, according to his word, and as he himself doth appoint and prescribe in his sacred scriptures, submitting ourselves wholly, our wit and reason, & all the wisdom that can be in us, unto his unsearchable wisdom and contenting ourselves with that form and manner of religion, that he hath set fourth unto us by his son jesus Christ, whom he hath appointed, by his holy spirit to be the only teacher & schoolmaster of his church, Mat. xvii we do study & labour to the uttermost of our power & with all due submission and obedience, to keep ourselves within the limits and bounds, of his prescribed rules & Canons, having always this saying of Samuel before our eyes: Samu. xv Hath the lord as great pleasure in offerings and sacrifices as when the voice of the Lord is obeyed? Behold to obey is b●●ter than sacrifice: and to hearken is better than the fat of Rams. Mat xv. Whereas they neglect nge gades commandments, that so they may set up their own traditions, and going about most ungodly to set the wisdom of god to school do bring in, all manner of tr●ssh tr●ssh, ships full of dumb and beggarly ceremonies, which they urge with fire and sword, Wherein doth consisterie outward worshipping of god and maintain them, with all kind o● cruel t●r●●nye. Whereby the extern and outward worshipping of god which consisteth in the preaching of the doctrine and in the right and due ministration of the sacraments according to the institution and ordinance of our saviour jesus Christ, and in the faithful prayers of the church, is clen abolished and put down. Read the overthrow of the justification of works for that. How perilous a thing it is to attempt to serve god otherwise than he himself doth appoint, it is easy to see in the x. Chapyt. of Leviticus, and in the ij. book of Samuel and sixth chapped. and in the i book of Chronicles, & xiii chapter, well this is most sure and certain that they do prefer their wisdom before the wisdom of god▪ which is a plain denial of god. For if he be not of a perfect wisdom, he is no god. Again, this that they do, is a manifest forsaking of the covenant of the lord, A forsaking of the covenant of god. How the adversaries do confess christ Math. viii. What it is to confess Christ aright. as it may be proved by many places of the scriptures: but specially by the xxij. chap. of jeremy the Prophet. But now let us come to their confession of our saviour jesus Christ. How do they confess him, I pray you? Even as the unclean spirits did, who every where acknowledged him to be the son of god, the son of the highest. To confess Christ a right, then, it is not only to confess him to be true and natural god, equal and of one substance with the father, and to be true & natural man equal and of one substance with us, being in all things like unto his brethren, sin only excepted: But to confess and acknowledge him, to be an omnisufficyent, and most perfect Saviour of all those that believe in his name, and put their whole trust in the merits of his death passion and bloudsheddinge, and to be the only mediator betwixt God and men. For, therefore did he come, Wherefore Christ came into the flesh. joa. iii. T●moth i Hell iu. seven. Acts. iiii. and did take upon him our frail nature that destroying the works of the devil, he should save sinners, most perfectly and to the uttermost, I mean as many as come unto God by him, so that there is none other name under heaven given unto men wherein we must be saved, but the name of our saviour jesus Christ. This therefore is our confession and believe, that by the merits only of the death passion and bloodshedding of our saviour jesus Christ, being apprehended and taken hold upon by faith, we obtain full salvation, forgiveness of our sins, and deliverance from eternal, and everlasting damnation. Wherefore we do attryhute unto him the whole glory of the salvation of mankind, acknoweledging him, to be our only mediator advocate and intercessor, according to these scriptures: I am the way, the truth, and the life▪ john. xiiii. Io. ●vi no man cometh unto the father but only by me: Whatsoever ye ask my father in my name it shallbe given unto you: It is Christ, which is dead yea, Rom. viii. rather which is risen again: who is also at the right hand of the father, and maketh intercession for us: There is one god, and one mediator betwixt god and man, i. Timot. two which is the man Christ jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all men the is able perfectly and sully to save them that come unto god by him, sith that he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Christ is not entered into the holy place, Hebr. seven which is made with hands, but in to heaven, there to appear in the sight of god for us. Hebr. ix. And again: These things do I write unto you, i Io. two that ye sin not, and if any man doth sin, we have an advocate with the father, jesus Christ the righteous. Whereunto the adversaries do attribute their salvation. But as for our adversaries without any warrant of god's word, yea, against all scriptures, they do attribute the best part of their salvation, to their own merits, and to the works of their own hands, yea, to such kind of works, as never were commanded of god, and for as much as they can not be of faith, they are mere sins in the sight of god, Is not this most blasphemous against the blood of christ, that they be wont to sing in their service? Tuper Thomae sanguinem quem pro te impendit, O plasphemous abomination fac nos christ scandere, quo Thomas ascendit. That is: O Christ, do by the blood of Thomas, which he spent for thee, make us to ascend thither whither Thomas is ascended. But why should I ●e to tedious unto your honour, in rehearsing many such things, sith that all their books are full of such damnable blasphemies? Do they not attribute more unto their ●oly father the Pope, More is attributed unto the pope than unto our saviour jesus chr●st. than unto our saviour jesus Christ? for they do plainly affirm that through faith in our saviour jesus Christ we do only obtain forgiveness of the coulpe, fault, or guiltiness, but not of the pun shment that is due unto ut for our sins. For that do they reserve to their holy father, who alone for a piece of money is able to give pardon a poe ●et culpa, that is of the punishment, and of the fault. If this be not a denial of Christ, I can not well tell, what we may call a denial of Christ for, therefore came he in to the ●leshe that he might be our perfect and full saviour They then that deny him to be a perfect and full saviour do deny him to be come into the flesh, i joa. iiii. and so by good right aught to be taken for Antichristes'. I do here let pass that by their sacrilegious and damnable sacrifice of the mass, The sacrifice of Christ is omnisufficente and can be offered no more. wherein they say, they offer daily our savour jesus Christ both god & man they do all that ever they can, to abolish annichilate and put down the omnisuff●cēt sacr●fice of our saviour jesus Christ, which as it hath been from the beginning, is now and shallbe to the worlds end, of a most perfect efficacy virtue, strength & power to save all those that put their trust in it or take hold upon it by faith: Heb. ix. so can it not be reiterated or offered any more. For, Christ is not entered into very heaven there to appear in the sight of god for us, to the end that he should offer himself any more, for than he must have died often lens the world began. He is that high priest that it became us to have, which being holy, Heb. seven. harmless, undefiled, separated, from sinners, and made higher than the heavens, needed not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins and then for the people's: for that he did once, when he offered up himself. How many mediators the adversaries have How many mediators have they imagined and sourged unto themselves besides Christ the only mediator betwixt god and man. So many as they do imagine to be saints in heaven, so many mediators have they sourged unto themselves, putting more confidence in their intercession▪ whereof they have no currentye or assurance at all in god's book, than in the mediation of the only begotten son of god. Which in so many places of the scriptures we are certified of, that unless we be worse than brute beasts, we ought to content ourselves with it, & to seek no farther. Add thereunto, To deny christ to be come into the flesh. that to acknowledge more mediators besides him, it is also to deny him to be come into the flesh. For, he did not only come into the flesh for to be our omnisufficient and most perfect saviour: but also for to be our only mediator betwixt god and us. How the adversaries do allow the scriptures of the old and new testament. And as for the scriptures of the old and new testament, if they did from the bottom of their hearts acknowledge them to be the word of god, then would they also confess and acknowledge that all things pertaining to salvation ●are contained in the same. Which thing they will never do, lest their whole religion which consists altogether in men's traditions, and vain doctrines of devils should be quite overthrown. Now to deny that all things peretining to our salvation are comptised in the scriptures, It is to deny that they be the word of god yea they that do so, They deny the holy ghost to be god that say that all things pertaining to salvation, are not contained in the scriptures. do utterly deny the holy ghost by whole inspyratione the scriptures have be a set fourth and written, to be true and natural god. For it is against the property of god to make any work of imperfection. But that all things pertaining to our salvation be not fully contained in the scriptures than are they a work of imperfection, and consequently the author of them, which is the holy ghost, is no true & natural god Do they not besides all this, assubiectize the scriptures & word of god to the vain glosses, and found expositions of their holy father the Pope? so that although their exposityons be never so ungodly, never so contrary, to the true sense and meaning of the holy spirit of god: yet we must receive and allow them for current money▪ except we will fry a faggot. Even after the same sort, do they confess the articles of our believe, m●king what gloss they lust upon them, although it be nothing according to the analogy of faith, from the which they do as fa●re defer, as the heavens are high above the earth. It is then evidence and plain that we do not without a just cause dissent from the Catholics and so earnestly impugn their damnable and wicked opinions. But now to come to our purpose, here in this my book, I do maintain and defend against them, that god only in the time of our trouble, aught to be called upon and that therefore they that in their necessities do by prayer fly unto dead creatures, do rob god of his glory, and do commit most damnable sacrilege which thing hath been sufficiently proved by manifest texts of the scriptures, and by strong authorities of the ancient fathers of the primitive Church, all the objections that the adversaries can make being mightily auswered and confuted. The hol● argument of the book. Secondly it hath been plainly showed, that we ought to acknowledge none other mediator betwixt God and man, but our saviour jesus Christ only, whom the scriptures do appoint unto us for the omnisufficient saviour of man kind, and for our only intercessor advocate and mediator. Making no mention at all of the intercession or mediation of the dead faints, which thing the holy ghost would not have omitted, if the saints departed out of this world, had been either appointed or allowed of god to be intercessors unto god for us. Thirdly it hath been declared, that as the saints that be already in glory with god ought in no wise to be called upon, nor to be taken for our mediators: so no godly honour ought to be given unto them forasmuch as it is a service, which is only due unto god. Where I had an occasion to show how many ways the true & faithful servants of god, being departed in the faith of his son jesus Christ ma● be honoured, & that the greatest honour that we can do unto them, is to obey their godly and sound doctrine, whereby they have instructed win the true religion & worshipping of the true living God, and also to follow their faith, and other heavenly virtues, whereby they did glorify God, whilst they lived here in this world This also hath been done by the infallible word of god, & testimonies of the holy doctors of the true catholic church, all the objections of the adversaries: as before being quite overthrown by the same. Last of all it hath been proved that no figure image or likeness of god, nor of his son jesus Christ, nor of the holy ghost nor yet of the Saints ought to be had in the house of prayer, nor in any other place wheresoever there i● any peril of idolatry, and that there can be no use of them in the Oratories or praying places of the Christians▪ but rather that they do most hurt wheresoever they be used and kept where by the way I have showed, what is the true cross, that we ought to embrace and have a pleasure in, and that as for material crosses they do more hurt, than good, & that therefore for avoiding of offences they ought to be taken away. These are the chief and principal content, of this book, wh●ch I do most humbly, and with all due submission dedicate and offer unto your good lordship desiring your honour to accept and take it in good part, which thing if ye do: it shall encourage me to attempt greater things▪ for the advancement of gods glory▪ and for the edifying of his church. Thus the lord god of hosts, the author of all goodness, vouchsafe to preserve your honour, my good lady your wife, and all your good family and household. The Table of this Book. A True tale. Folio. 101. A worthy history. fol. 74. A good shift of the papistes. fo. 10 A difference betwixt sinners. eodem A short exposition of Cyprians words. 41. A private man's fact. fol. 31. A place out of the xxxii chapter of Exodus. folio. 51. Abel's blood crieth for vengeance fo. 24 Absalon, and his history fo. 15. All saints that be in glory, have been saved only by the mercy of god. fo. 11. Antonomasia, what it is. fol. 53. Ambrose words fo. 14. 86. 95. 100 Antichrist worketh signs & miracles. 8. An history to be marked of Christian kings and princes fol. 33. applying of the similitude fol. 10. At the day of judgement. folio. 22. Augustine's words in so many places, as he is alleged in this book. fol. 11. 19 21, 27. 38. 42. 43. 46. 47. 57 61. 64. 7● 96. 97. 101. A small shift. fol. 99 Answer to fond objections. 78. Athanassus words. fol. 83. A strong argument against the papists. 86. Angel, the papist, I would have said the catholic. fol. 95. A notable history of Antony. fo. 103. B. Brazen serpent fol. 80. Baruh, of what dead he speaketh of. 59 beastliness of the papists in alleging the scriptures fol. 58. C. Christ, why he is worshipped fo. 74 Cross taken for affliction and trouble. It is also taken for continual repentance and mortifying of the flesh. fol. 94. Cherubin, why they were made. fo. 81 Christ hath spoken never a word of the invocation of saints. fo. 5. and whom they be that he will save. fol. 19 Colyridianis, what they be fo. 72. Chrysostom, and his words. 16. 73. Cross, taken for the death of Christ, and preaching of the same. fol. 94. Cyprian, and his sayings. 40. 56. 67. Constantine and Archadius. fo. 58 Cyrillus words. fol. 73. Concilium To●ctan●●●. fol. 8●. D. Damascene, Gardeners chief refuge. folio. 95. 100 Doctrine, scarcely allowed by the pope. 58. E. Ezechias example is to be followed of good princes. fol. 81. Eunomius, and his heresy. fol. 38. Epiphantus and his words. fol. 72. Epiphanius bishop of Salamena in Cypress. folio. 92. Erasmus censore upon Saint Hieromes book against Vigilantius. 30. his Endion. 70. and in his annotations. fol. 86. Epiphanius in building gods house. 93. Example of the publican fol. 12. F. Fond obiectious of the papists. fo. 78. G. God's creatures (all of them) may be the books of the lay people. for. 1●4. God only aught to be called upon. fo. 3. and why he doth good to men here, in the earth fol. 29. God will not have us attribute our felicity unto creatures. fol. 67. H. Helias, why he was taken up in body and soul. folio. 35. Helizeus, and why the dead that was cast into his grave, was raised again. fo. 36. He only ought to be called upon, in whom we do believe fol. 5. Heresy and schism, unto whom it is laid. fol. ●. Holy angels will have no sacrifice. 48. How the name of God was in his angels. fol. 47. How the place alleged out of the ix of john ought to be understanded. fo. 12. How God doth honour his saints. fo. 71 Jerome, and his words. 25. 29. ●0. 31. 37. 39 48. 86. 95. How we may honour the image of God aright. I fol. 104. Images, and why the papists will have them in their churches. fol. 74. 77. 84. Images of the gentiles. 87. they ought to be put down in all churches. fol. 90. jacob, and what his meaning was. 49. Idolaters common complaint fo. 67. Idolaters of our tyme. 68 joseph, & why he would have his bones brought out of the land of Egypt. for. 34 Injury that is done by the adversaries both to god and his saints. fo. 11. judes epistle. fo. 34. Images causes of division in the common wealth of Israel, and also in the empire. fol. 105. L. Lactantius, and his words. fo. 45. Luke, why he is called a peinter of some. 78 M. Marry, the virgin is no where in all the scriptures, called the queen of heaven. 71. Many things did the old ancient father's use. folio. 97. Miracles doth not prove the invocation of saints. folio. 6. Moses, and the history of his death and burying. folio. 33. Mischief that the contention about the Images did breed foli. 106. None can be our mediator, except he be also our redeemer. fol. 18. O. Origenes words fol. 61. 96 Our shoot anchor fo. 23. Of the Cross fol. 94. Osius, a catholic fo. 95. P. Paul's answer to their reasons. 89. Papists arguments beaten upon their own heads. fo. 26. and again in the .55 prayers of the living do not help the dead foli. ●. Prayers that we make one for an other. 25. Prayers are the sacrifices of the elect and chosen of God foli. 44. Petrus Crinitus, and his words fo. 91. Preposterous devotion. fol. 104. Relics of the dead saints. fo. 37 Ruffinus, alleged. 64. 65. Reply of the adversaries. fo. 83. S salomon's deed helpeth the Papists nothing. fo. 81. Saint Nicolas. saint Leonarde. fo. 6. Saints that be dead. fo. 28. Similitude. fo. 9 Similitude of the papist. fol. 16. Spiritual fornication. fo. 66. Socrates' saying touching the worshipping of god. fo. 74. Serenus bishop of Massilia. fo. 82. T Tertullians' words. 37. 47. 95. There can be no true invocation without faith. fol. 4. The subtlety of the devil. fol. 7. The time of grace and the time of judgement. fo. 22. The cannons and what they affirm. 25. The authority of god's book ought to be preferred, before the authority of angels. fo. 37. The angel of great counsel. fo. 47. The place of the first chapter of Zachary fol. 48. The fondness of the adversaries. fo. 54. The true meaning of jobs words in his .5. chapter. fol. 54. The faithful living here on the earth be saints. fo. 57 The doctrine entreated of in this book. 1. The faithful call only upon god in their trouble. sol. 2. The preposterous honouring of the dead. 70 The true honouring of saints. fol. 70. The misses which the enemies do cast before the eyes of the simple & ignorant. 71 The absurdity of the papists arguments. fol. 7●. The error of the women of juda. fo. 72 Theodosius, and what his vision doth signify. 64. and of his prayer. fo. 64. Three sorts of honouring of the saints 69 Two kinds of prayers. fol. 63. The preachers of the Pope. fo. 77. The righteous judgement of god. fo. 78. The vanity of the enemies. fo. 79. The son of God, why he took our frail nature on him. fo. 85. The reason of Paul's adversaries. fo. 89 The lying tales touching conjured water. fol. 98. The image of Christ of all other is most perilous folio. 91. Three great mischiefs that the images do cause. foli. 1ST. The conclusion of this book fol. 106 W We have no promise in all the whole body of the scriptures that the dead saints do hear us. fo. 2. What was the let that this work came forth no sooner. fo. 1. What properties he ought to have that we must pray unto. fo. 2. Whence the faith of true christians doth come, & where upon it is grounded. fo. 4. Where the spirits of the godly be. fo. 28. Whether the dead saints ought to be worshipped. fo. 69. Whiles we live in this world we are bound to pray one for an other. fo. 62. Why the son of god did take upon him our frail nature. fo. 18. Who they be among whom the devil worketh miracles fo. 7. Why the Apostles were sent into the world. folio. 77. What we do learn by the decree of those emperors. fol. 91. wherefore the lords supper was called collecta. fol. 92. why the old christians did use the sign of the cross. fol. 93 V Vigilantius and of the difference between him and Eunomins. fo. 39 ¶ Thus endeth the Table. A strong battery against the idolatrous Invocation of the dead Saints, and against the having or setting up of Images, in the house of prayer, or in any other place, where there can be any peril of idolatry, made dialogue wise. By john Veron. The speakers. Albion, Eutrapelus, Philalethes. Dydimus. ALBION. I remember well, that after we had talked of the Prayers for the dead, this work was done in the hunting of purgatory. in which talk, was most learnedly proved by you, that all the Prayers and good deeds taht the living be able to make or do for them, that be ones departed out of this world, can profit them nothing at all: We were fully determined to have talked likewise and reasoned of the prayers that are commonly made unto dead Saints. But being letted by other necessary & fruitful communication, the matter could not yet be discussed. this work was letted by the setting forth of the doctrine of predestination, of free will, and by the overthrow of the justification of works. Wherein, notwithstanding, I see very many, shamefully to err: & I myself am scarcely yet, persuaded in it, by reason of the manifold texts of the scriptures, & authorities of the ancient fathers, that my faithful guides of the clergy, did allege & bring in, for to prove, that we ought to pray unto the dead Saints that be already in glory with their head our saviour jesus Christ, & to take them for our mediators, advocates, & intercessors. Therefore, I shall most hertily desire you, brother Philalethes, that ye will declare unto us, your mind, touching the matter, I mean whether we ought to call upon any other, The sum of the hole doctrine entreated of in all this book. than upon the living God, in the time of our need and trouble. And again, whether we ought to acknowledge any mediators, advocates, & intercessors besides our saviour jesus Christ, whom ye do every where affirm, to be our only mediator betwixt God & us. I would fain be fully resolved in this matter. Philaleth. As concerning the first, we do not read in all the whole body of the scriptures that ever the true and faithful servants of god did in the time of their trouble, call upon any other, None of the faithful servants of god did ever call upon any other in the time of their troubleth Turrian upon the true living God than upon the living God, the father of our saviour jesus Christ. Which ought to be unto us, a sufficient doctrine. For, it is to be thought, that if they had had any express word, in god's book that should have commanded them otherwise, they would have been obedient unto it. But no such express word shall ye find in all the scriptures, wherein not withstanding all things, that do pertain to the salvation of man, are most sufficiently set forth unto us. Therefore it were a plain blasphemy in the time of our trouble, to call upon any other, than upon the living God only, who by his prophet David speaketh these comfortable words unto us: Psal. 100 Call upon me in the day of thy trouble, so will I deliver thee, & thou shalt glorify me. Who, I pray you, having this commandment of the everliving and eternal God, joined with so sweet a promise, We have no promise in all the whole body of the scriptures, that the dead saints do heat us. would seek to any other? Eutrapelus. I would hold him worse than mad, that would do it, sith that we have neither express word, nor promise, in all the whole body of the Scriptures, that the dead saints should hear us, or succour us in the time of our need. Philalethes. What properties he ought to have that we must pray unto. Add thereto, that he whom we ought to pray unto, must have all these properties. 1 first, he must be omnipotent or almighty, that is, able to do what soever he will, both in heaven and in earth. for unless he were able and of power to help us out of all manner of troubles perils and dangers that we be in, be they never so great, it were but labour lost to pray unto him. 2 Secondly, he must be of an absolute and perfect wise doom, that so he may perfectly know how to help them that call upon him, for help aid and succour, and how to compass and overthrow the crafty and subtle devices of the enemies of his people. For many there be, that have might and power, but for want of wisdom, they can bring nothing to pass, their might and power profiteth them nothing. 3 thirdly, he must not only be almighty, and of a perfect wisdom, but also willing both to hear and to help us. For what should his great power and wisdom avail or profit us, except he were willing to do us good? 4 Fourthly he must be such one, as is able to here the prayers of all them that call upon him, although in one instant, all the nations that be upon the earth, should make the●r prayers together unto him. Fo: else it should come to pass that the suit and prayers of th'one, should be both hindered and letted by the prayers of the other: or whiles he should hear the prayers of the one, and deliver them out of the present danger and peril: the other, their prayers being not heard, should perish in the same. 5 fifthly, this property also he must have, that is, he must be such one, as doth better know our necessities, and what is expedient for us than we ourselves be able to declare. For, who would commit himself into the hands of that physician, that can know no more of the sickness than the patient can tell himself. These .v. properties are necessarily required in him, whom we ought in the time of our trouble to call upon. Bring one either in heaven or in earth that hath all these things, Rom 10. and then we may be sure, that it is he, that aught to be prayed unto of all men. But who can be such, except he be almighty, except he knoweth all things, or be of a perfect wisdom, except he be most bountuouse, and most willing to do good unto all them that by faithful prayers do fly unto him, hearing all them that call upon him, and knwoing better their necessities, than they their selves be able to declare? Didymus. None, I trow, can be such, but the true living and eternal God only. For none of all the angels nor of the children of Adam can have these properties, unless we will grant them to be gods. Philalethes. It followeth then by good consequence that none ought to be called upon, God only ought to be called upon. but the true living God only. For, he only is almighty, whose spirit is the spirit of counsel, so that he knoweth how to deliver his out of temptation, being so merciful and bounteous, that he doth of his own goodness, call the afflicted unto himself, Psal. 50. and promiseth help unto all them that call upon him, saying (as we alleged before) Call upon me in the day of thy trouble, so shall I deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. Again, he doth not only being every where present, here our words, but also the very desires of our own hearts, knowing most perfectly the infirmity and weakness of his work, that he himself hath made. There can be no true invoation without faith. Objection. 1 Moreover, this is most sure, that no invocation or prayer can be made without faith. Albion. And do not they, that pray unto Saints, believe that they shall be heard? Without all doubt they be fully persuaded, that their prayers shall be heard, and that they shall obtain help and secure at the dead Saints hands. Therefore, it can not be said, that their invocation or prayers be without faith. Whence the faith of the christians do come, and whereupon 〈◊〉 it gronded. Philalethes. But whence doth the faith of the christians proceed and come, but of the preaching of the gospel? or whereupon is it grounded, but upon the infallible word of Gud, which sendeth us to none other, but to our heavenly Father, through his son jesus Christ, our only saviour, advocate and mediator. This doth the Apostle write: Who soever shall call upon the name of the Lord, Rom 10. shallbe saved. But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them, which bring glad tidings of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things. But they have not all obeyed the Gospel: isaiah. ●●. Navir. ● isaiah ●●. john. 12. for, isaiah saith, Lord, who believeth our report? Then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. What could (I beseech you) be spoken more plainly of the true Invocation and prayers of the Christians? Who seeth not whence it doth come? How, saith he, shall they call on him, in whom they do not believe? The true invocation then can not be without faith. And that we might understand of what saith he doth speak, he setteth forth whence it cometh, that we may know the quality & boldness of it. He showeth that it cometh by the preaching of the Gospel, which bringeth unto us glad tidings of peace, and certifieth us of good things. But the true preaching of the Gospel, doth teach us to believe in God only, and in his only begotten son our Lord. Albion. Now I perceive well your meaning: He only ought to be called upon, He only ought to be called upon, in whom we do believe in whom we do believe: but the word of God doth teach us to believe in God only: Therefore, he only ought to be called upon. Philalethes. Ye understand the matter a right. And verily this is the principal mark, The mark that the hole scriptures doo-shoote at. that the hole scriptures do shoot at, to make us to put all our whole confidence and trust in God our heavenly father, and in all our afflictions and troubles which he sendeth unto us, for a fatherly chastisement and discipline, thereby to call us unto him again, boldly to call upon his holy name, through his son jesus Christ our Lord and saviour. Eutrape. This, me think, ought to suffice us, that our saviour jesus Christ, whom the heavenly Father hath appointed to be our only teacher and schoolmaster, in things that pertain to the true religion, worshipping and service of God did speak never a word of this Invocation of the dead Saints, Christ hath spoken never a word of the invocation of saints. which thing he would not have done, if it had been according to the will of him that had sent him. Therefore when he teacheth his disciples to pray, he saith these words unto them: after this manner therefore praiye: Mathei 6 Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. etc. As he doth here send us to our heavenly Father, and biddeth us to pray unto him, so can not this prayer, without traitorous sacrilege be said to any other. For unto whom of the Saints can we without great blasphemy say: Our father which art in heaven? or give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us? Therefore I can not but marvel at the shameless blasphemies of those, that would send the poor simple and ignorant, after they had had them under their Benedicite, to this image or to the image and bid them to say there kneeling, so many Pater nosters and Aves. PHILALE. These may be likened unto those false Prophets that Hieremie did speak of) which taught the people to say unto a piece of wood, Thou art my father, & to a stone: Heir. ●. Thou haste begotten me▪ for what other thing is it to mumble out the lords prayer, before dumb blocks and stones, but to commit that shameful idolatry, that the holy Prophet doth so sore speak against in that place. Albion. If the dead Saints ought not to be called upon in our necessities, Obie i two. troubles, afflictions, and adversities, because that they can not help us, but God only, who therefore ought alone to be prayed unto: How doth it chance that many have been delivered from grievous sicknesses, and other great perils and dangers, by calling upon the Saints, & that with great & wondrous miracles. which thing can be proved by manifest tokens and signs, or rather remembrances, that hang yet at this day in many of their chapels? some have been saved from drowning by the help of saint Nicholas. Some again, Saint Nicolas. Saint Leonarde. have been delivered from bonds and irons, by S. Leonard. How many, I pray you, being halt, blind, dumb, and deaf, have been cured and healed by the help of the Saints? What should I speak of them, that by their helping hands, have been delivered from dangerous agues, pestilence and unclean spirits? Sith then that the dead Saints do help them, that do devoutly pray unto them, why should we not in the time of our trouble call upon them? PHILA. Answer If the showing of miracles were a sufficient argument for to prove, defend, and maintain the invocation, and worshipping of the Saints, The s●e wyage of mira●les is not a sufficient argument to prove the invocation of saints by the same reason might the Idolatry of the Gentiles or heathen be upholden as good, sith that many have been cured and delivered among them, by calling upon their false gods. Whereof it did come to pass, that the heathen did verily think that they were healed by their gods, whom in their perils and dangers, they called upon, and whom, leaving the true living God, they most ungodly honoured and worshipped. Didymus. I remember that the lord doth in isaiah the Prophet speak these words: I am he, I am he, isaiah. 43 and besides me there is no saviour. If there be no saviour besides the true living God, by whose virtue think ye, were so many thousand of sick folks restored to health again, before the idols of the heathen? Philaleth. Without all doubt, they were cured and healed by the power of the devil. Didym. But how can Satan the devil, heal or deliver any man from his sickness, sith that he is no god. Philale. He can do it, Who they be ●● oug ●hom the li●el works miracles. if God doth permit and suffer specially among them, whom he holdeth subject to his tyranny: whose eyes he hath so bewitched, that they think themselves to be the true worshippers of the living God, and to be helped by him, for that wicked spirit is so abhorred, and hated, that being known, no man would call upon him. He doth therefore so blind the hearts and minds of the infidels, whom he beareth rule over, and whom he hath under his subjection, that they think nothing less than to call upon Satan the devil, or to be healed by him. And that this crafty and most subtle deceiver may lurk or be unknown, he doth by the divine permission and sufferance, and by the righteous judgement of God, most shamefully beguile them, that be given over into his power, doing all that in him lieth, to withdraw the minds of mortal men from the worshipping of the true living God, that so he may have them fellows with him of eternal punishments in hell fire. And for this cause these unclean spirits do hide theimselues within the images, Note this dilig ntly they inspire the hearts of their prophets, they set out oracles or prophecies, they govern the flyenges of birds, they trouble the life, they disquiet the sleep, and creeping in to the bodies, they do fray the mind, they bring the limbs out of fashion, they hurt the health, and vere with diseases, that they may compel and constrain the poor silly wretches to the worshipping of them, What sith till means the devil worketh that he may seem to have cured and he did the sick and when they have released or leused that which they had bound, they may seem to have healed▪ for, this is their curing or healing when they cease to do hurt. All these things are done, at the invocation or calling upon of the gods of the heathen Would therefore any man being in his right mind, judge this idolatry to be tolerable or good, because of these miracles? Albion. ●. Objection These things have been done among the heathen, whose gods were no gods but devils, and that by the permission and sufferance of God, because of their horrible idolatry that they did most shamefully wallow in. But it followeth not that the like may be done among the people of God Philalethes. Answer. It is most manifest and plain, that God doth permit and suffer Satan to work such things among his people. For doth not God give unto false prophets power to work miracles, Deute. 19 that so he may try and prove his people whether their love him or not? And whether they will steadfastly cleave unto his laws? And lest it should be said, that this was done among the jews, but that it is otherwise in the church of Christ, we have an excellent prophecy of the holy apostle, where he saith on this manner: 2. Thes. 2 Than shall the wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is by the working of Satan, with all power and signs, and lying wonders. And in all deceivableness of unrighteousness among them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore god shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe lies, that all they might be damned, which believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Do we not learn by these words of th'apostle, that in the later days there shall be wonders and signs in the kingdom of antichrist? And doubtless, There be wonders and signs in the kingdom of Antichrist as they are by the righteous judgement of God, ordained for to deceive them that have a delight in unrighteousness, so do they also take away sicknesses, and diseases, that the ungodly contemners of the truth may the more be blinded and confirmed in their error. Are not also these Christ's words? Many shall say to me in that day: Lord, have we not by thy name prophesied? he we not by thy name cast out devils, and done or wrought great miracles? And then will I confess to them I never knew you. Depart ye from me, ye workers of iniquity. Mat. 24. And in an other place. There (saith he) shall arise false Christ's, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, so that if it were possible, they should deceive the very elect. It doth sufficiently appear, by this, that many times it cometh to pass, not only among the heathen and jews, but also in the church of God, that by the invocation of them, that are no Gods, not a few have been, and are healed. Yet no man ought thereupon to conclude, that it is lawful in the time of trouble, to call upon any other, than upon the true living God, all creatures be they never so excellent, being laid aside. Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse whoredom, no more doth the working of miracles excuse the idolatrous invocation of Saints Eutrepelus. I am of this opinion, that miracles do no more excuse the invocation and worshipping of Saints, than the conception, getting or procreation of children, can excuse adultery, & whoredom, although it be a miracle that the child is conceived in the mother's womb that there it is nourished and fed, and at length in his due time brought forth into the world, and such a miracle as can only be done and wrought by the divine virtue and power of God. Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eat it, he shall both take away his hunger, and also feed his body, though this virtue and power to feed the body doth only pertain to God. Shall we therefore excuse whooredom, adultery and theft? Didymus. No man I trow, will be of that mind. Eutrapelus. How can then, the invocation of Sainces, which the whole scripture doth disavouche, be excused, by showing or working of miracles? Therefore, when they say, why should we not call upon the Saints, sith that many (as we see daily by experience have been) both healed and also delivered, from the perils and dangers that they were in, by that mean? It is even, as if the horemonger should say: Why should I not cleave unto a harlot, sith the I do aswell get children of her, as of a lawful wife? or as if that these should likewise say: Why should I toil or labour, sith that by stealing, I can help my necessity & need? As then, it is not lawful for any man to seek to have children by adultery and whoredom, although men may have issue that way, nor yet by picking & stealing to help the necessities of his body, although many do live by theft, but it is the part of an honest man to seek to have issue by honest matrimony & wedlock, & by due labour to get his living: so it is the duty of a true christian man, The abolishing of the similitude. in what trouble, peril, or danger so ever he be, to seek for help & deliverance, not by the unlawful calling upon the dead Saints (although many have received their health by it) but by the faithful invocation only of the true living & eternal god. And as an honest man had lieffer to be without children than to get them in adultery & whoredom: Similitude. and to bite his bread very near, rather than to live by theft and other unlawful means: so he that feareth God unfeignedly, hath lieffer, to suffer any kind of affliction, than to seek for help and deliverance, by the forbidden invocation of dead creatures. Albion. Well, I grant, that the dead Saints, ought not to be called upon as gods, I mean that they ought not to be called upon, as though they their selves should help us, A good Chift of the papists. in our troubles and adversities: but that we ought to call upon them, as being our mediators, advocates, and intercessors which do make intercession unto God for us. Philalethes. Where, I pray you brother Albion, have ye learned this divinity? So are we wont always to excuse the want or lack of faith. Wh● do we not rather pray unto God out heavenly Father, sith that in so many places he will have us so for to do? Albion john. 9 Obie. 4. Because we are sinners. And ye know what the scripture saith: Peccatores non and●r Deus. God heareth not sinners, but them, that are obedient to his will. Philalethes. That we are sinners, we have that common with all mortal men For, Answer. 8 King. ● 1 john. 1. A difference betwixt sinners. there is no man that sinneth not. And if we should say, We have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But this difference, doth the scriptures pu●fe betwixt sinners, that some are always ready to ●●p●nt, whensoever they be, either by the outward preaching of God's word, or by the inward motion of the holy ghost, moved thereto, and some again will never repent, but do stubbrnely unto the end abide in their sins, making a mock of the threatenings of God, and of his judgements. If we be of the numbered of the true repentant sinners, who dareth, contrary to all the whole scriptures, affirm that God will not hear us? Math. 6. If sinners may not be heard, why doth our saviour jesus Christ teach us to say: forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us? Again, if God will not hear repentant sinners, but the saints do hear them, and have pity and compassion on them, then are the Saints merciful, and God unmerciful. Therefore the Scripture should have commended and set forth the mercifulness of the Saints, and not the mercy of God. All saints that be in glory have been saved 〈…〉 the mercy of god. But let such blasphemy be far from us, that we should take away mercy from God, and attribute it unto saints, of whom not as much as one hath been saved, but only through the grace and mercy of God. Now if we be unrepentant sinners, what marvel is it, if we have no boldness at all to call upon God? Ye know that they that are such, as they be void of a lively faith in our saviour jesus Christ, so are they most unworthy that they should be her●● Eutrapelus. Verily, it seemeth unto me, the greatest folly in the world, to think or imagine, that the Saints are so far different or disagreeing from God, that whom he will not hear because of their unrepentant hearts, them they would not only hear, but also make intercession unto GOD for them. The injury that is done by the adversaries both to god and to his saints. Who doth not see, that so doing, we do great injury both to God and the Saints. To the Saints, because that we judge them to be such as will hear an unrepentant sinner, when he calleth upon them, & make intercession for him. And to God, The enemy's harp still upon one string. because we should imagine, that he will, contrary to his word, admit any intercessors for such a sinner. Albion. Yet they will say still that this is the scripture: good heareth not sinners. Here the holy ghost maketh no such distinction as ye make. Philalethes. I may answer you by the words of saint Augustine, August li. 2. contra episto lamb parmenianis ca 9 who writeth after this manner: Hoc à Domino non est dictum, sed ●b illo, qui oculos corporis, iam quidem restitutos habebat, sed ei oculi cordis, nondum patebant, unde ipsum Dominum adhuc prophetam putabat. Nam eum postea cognitum del filium adoravit. Ipse autem dominus, quum in uno templo orarent Pharisaeus & publicanus▪ publicanum confitentem peccata sua magis justificatum dicit, quam Phatisaeum ●actantem merita sua. Quanquam, enim justificatus destiterit esse peccator, tamen ut iustificaretur peccator orabat, & peccator confitebatur, & exauditus justificatus est, ut desinerer esse peccator. Non utique desineret esse peccator, nisi prius exaudiretur peccator. That is to say, This was not spoken of the Lord, but of him, which had already his bodily eyes restored, joan. 9 but the eyes of his heart were not yet open, and therefore he thought yet of the Lord, that he was but a prophet. For, afterwards, Luc, 18. knowing that he was the son of God, he worshipped him. But the Lord himself, when tow did pray together in one temple A Pharisei, and a Publican, doth say, that the publican confessing his sins was more justified, than the pharisee boasting his merits. For although being justified, he cess to be a sinner: The example of the publican yet whiles he was a sinner he did pray, & confess his sins, that he might be justified and being heard he was justified, that he might cease to be a sinner. And truly he should not cease to be a sinner, unless he were heard being yet a sinner. Eutrapelus. As far as we can gather of the text, that they do allege, we shall not greatly need the help of this holy father: How the place allegeth out of the .9. of john ought to be understanded. for, let us only mark the circumstances of the place The pharisees did say of Christ, This man is not of god, for he keepeth not the Sabbath day. By which words, they went about to rob Christ of the glory of the miracle that he had wrought in making the blind man to see, and to persuade the people that he was a most abominable sinner, and a despiser of the Lords holy laws and ordinances. The poor silly blind man, having received such a benefit at Christ's hands, did all that in him did lie, to stop their blasphemous mouths, saying: We know that god heareth not sinners, that is, such sinners, as ye will make him. for it was not heard, sense the world began, that any did open the eyes of a man that was borne blind. Except this man were of god, he could have done nothing. It is easy now to understand of what kind of sinners the scripture speaketh there. For, if those words were spoken generally of all sorts of sinners, what injury should this be both to the word of god, and also to his divine grace? Didymus. Objection. If ye will give me leave, I will bring forth an objection, wherewith they do marvelously (for it is set out with a similitude, taken of the common use of men) trouble the heads of the simple and ignorant people. ● Grounded upon a similitude. Albion. We do all give you good leave. Didymus, Who (say our gallant champions of the Pope's clergy) dare come to an earthly king or prince, having any suit unto him without mediators? They that have aught to do with the prince, they will come unto them, whom they know to be in most favour with him, and them do they make their mediators, that they may have the better access unto him, and speed in their business. We have the examples of the same in gods word. 1. King. 2 for was not Berseebah a mediatrix unto her son Solomon for Adoniah? Again was not Absalon reconciled unto his father David, 2. Sa. 14. by the means of joab? If we may not then come to worldly princes, but that we must have some, to be means for us: how dare we be so bold, being sinful creatures, to appear before the majesty of God without mediators? But who should be those mediators but the blessed virgin Mary, the holy apostles and martyrs of our saviour jesus Christ? PHILA. Answer. In deed with this similitude, they do wonderfully dasylle the eyes of the simple and unlearned. But I trust that we shall soon overthrow it, and so much the rather because that it hath no foundation at all in god's book. first and foremost, are not these the words of the Lord: Esay. 55. Num vie meae sicut viae vestrae? Are my ways like unto your ways? if the same causes could be found in God, why we might not come before his majesty, without mediators that commonly be found in earthly kings and princes, their similitude, should have some appearance of a truth. But no such causes can we find in our heavenly father. First and foremost, if a king be a lover of virtue, and an earnest maintainer of justice, as many wicked & ungodly persons, as he hath within his dominions, so many deadly enemies hath he. And therefore it is not meet and convenient, that every man that would, should be suffered to come to such a king. For, so he might be murdered under the colour & pretence of suit, Titus linius 1 de ca li 1. Psal ●. as we read of Tarqvinius Priscus. But there is no such peril in our heavenly king. For why? he is in heaven, & hath all his enemies in derision, yea he shall speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. secondly we see that at many times happeneth that worldly princes, do wax so proud, and so high minded, that they disdain to speak with their great lords, much less that they would suffer every rascal, to come unto them. But our eternal & everlasting king doth call all men indifferently unto him, saterig: Math. 11. Come unto me all ye the labour, & are laden, & I will refresh you. Thirdly, let us grant that the prince, is neither afraid of treason, nor yet puffed up with such pride, as we spoke of, but is most ready to hear all men's suit: yet he can here but one man's suit at ones, so that if all men should be suffered to come in with their suit, he must needs be overcharged. But the living god our heavenly father, is able to here at once all men's petitions, though all nations and peoples, that be under heaven, should in one instant call upon him, and make their suit unto him. Ambro incommen suis in, 1. caput ad Domanns, Unto all these the saying of Ambrose may be added, where he saith, Nam & ideo ad regem, per Tribunos & Comites itur, quia homo utique est rex, & nescit quibus debeat Rempub. committere. Ad Deum autem, quem utique; nihil latet, omnium enim merita novit, promerendum, suffragatore non est opus. sed mente devota, That is to say: They do therefore come unto a king by his captains, lords, and waiting servants, because forsooth that the king is a man, and knoweth not to whom he should commit the common wealth. But to get and obtain the favour of GOD, from whom nothing is hidden. for he knoweth all men's merits, we have no need of a Mediator, but of a devout mind. Let your Pope catholics read the words that go before, in the same place of saint Ambrose. Albion. But what say ye to those authorities of the scriptures, that our neighbour Didymus did allege? 2 Sam 4 ●he histoly of Absaron. PHILE. I will first begin with the history of Absalon. first, it was not without a just cause, that he did not by himself sue to be reconciled with his father. It did well appear afterwards, that he bore no true heart to the king his father, but was all drowned in ambition. Again he knew right well, that his father loved Ammon most entirely, and that therefore it could not be, but that he was sore offended, for the which cause, he durst not come in his sight. And that David would not see him, that aught to be attributed to the great heaviness and sorrow that he was in for the death of his son Ammon. But no such human passions can be applied unto God, unless we will condemn the scriptures of deceatfulnesse & leasing. Again, that David being by the means of joab reconciled unto his son, would not suffer him to come into his sight it was a token that he kept yet some rancour and malice in his heart. But the reconciliation, whereby the true repentant sinners, are reconciled unto god, is full and perfect▪ for there can be nothing more acceptable unto him, than the unfeigned conversion or turning again of his children. for, so doth he cry out by his prophet Esay: Let the wicked forsake his ways, Esay 55. and the unrighteous his own imaginations, and return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him, and to our god, for, he is very ready to forgive. for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways, my ways, saith the lord. When, think ye, would David have said: Let Absalon forsake his wickedness, and return unto me being his father, & I will have mercy upon him. for I am very ready to forgive. And as for adoniah, he had conceived treason against his brother Solomon, whom he sought for to depose, that he might make himself king, else he might without any peril have come to the king. 1 King. 2 The history of Adoniah. Howbeit the history doth declare, that the intercession, that Bersebah did make for him unto her son Solomon, did cost him his life. Eutrape. Use that kind of intercession that list, 2. Sa 19 me think it is nought for the neck. Phila. More over if such histories do please them so much: why do they not bring forth the history of Semei, who although he had most grievously offended David, yet came by himself without any mediator unto him, and falling down at his feet, desired him of pardon? why is the example of the prodigal son omitted and left of? Eutra. Luc. 15. The similitude of the papists overthrown by an other similitude. As unskilful in divinity as I am, me think I could bring a similitude or example, which must needs be far better that theirs. If any earthily king or prince should by act of parliament or by proclamation command all his subjects in their trouble to come boldly unto him, promising to hear them, and to rid them out of their trouble, adversity, and affliction: What need I pray you, should these subjects have to seek Mediators, that by them they might come to the king and have their matter heard? even so now, sith that we have so many proclamations, set out in that most glorious council or parlensent of the blessed Trinity, whereby we are bidden to come with a steadfast confidence and trust before the mercy seat of our heavenly king and father, what should mediators do? First and foremost, Psal. l. our heavenly Father setteth out this proclamation: Call upon me in the day of thy trouble, and so I will deliver thee, and thou shalt hear me. Math, xi. The son setteth out this, and doth proclaim it himself: Come unto me all ye that labour, Ro. m 10 and are laden, and I will refresh you. The holy ghost doth by the holy apostle cry out: Who soever shall call upon the name of the Lord shallbe saved. Are not these sufficient proclamations to enbolden us, in all our needs troubles and adversities to fly unto our heavenly Father, for help, aid, and succour, without spending our labour in vain, in seeking mediators advocates, and intercessors? Chriso. de profectu evangelii. Tomo 6. Non opus est (saith Chrysostom, multis patronis apud Deum, neque multo discursu ut blandiare aliis, sed licet solus sis patronoque careas, & per te ipsum Deum precetis, omnino tamen voti compos eris. Neque enim tam facile Deus annuit cum alii pro nobis orant, ut cum ipsimet oramus, otian si plurimis plene simus malis, That is to say: we have no need of many advocates before God, neither of much gadding about, for to flatter and speak fair unto other. For, although thou be alone, and want an advocate, and pray unto God by thyself, thou shalt doubtless obtain thy request. For God doth not so easily hear us when other do pray for us, as when we pray ourselves although we be full of many sins. And again in the same Omelie: O woman, Math. 15. great is thy faith. Thou seest, saith he, how the woman that was unworthy, was by her importunate calling made worthy. Wilt thou also learn, that praying by ourselves we obtain more at god's hands, then when other do pray for us? She cried after Christ, and the disciples came unto him, saying: Send her away, for she crieth after us. And unto them he said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But when she came herself, & persevered crying out, and saying: Lord, do not the little whelps feed of the crumbs that fall from their master's board? he granted unto her the benefit, that she would have, and said: Let it be done unto thee, as thou wilt. Thou seest how she had the repulse, when other prayed, but when she came herself praying for the gift: he did grant it. Unto them he did say: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But unto her: Great is thy faith, saith he, let it be done unto thee, as thou wilt. These are Chrysostom's words, neither can the enemies answer aught to these plain texts. Albion. Object 5 Heb. 12. And shall we have no mediators, advocates or intercessors at all? Doth not saint Paul write thus: Even our God is a consuming fire, and dwelleth in the light that none can attain unto? Who dareth then, knowing himself to be a sinful creature, approach or come near unto him? Shall not he, that presumeth to do so, be consumed to nought? Philalethes. In deed, brother Albion, forasmuch as God is a consuming fire Answer. and dwelleth in the light that no man can attain unto, Why the son of god did take upon him our frail nature. we have need of a mediator, but not of mediators. And the same mediator is the only begotten son of GOD, our saviour jesus Christ, who that he might be our only and omnisufficient Saviour, and also the only mediator betwixt GOD and us, did vouchsafe to take upon him our frail nature. Without him can we have no access unto that burning and consuming fire, 1 Timon 2. nor have any fellowship with God. And of this omnisufficient and only mediator, the holy Apostle writeth on this manner: There is one God, and one mediator betwixt GOD and man, which is that man Christ jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all men Albion. They confess, The cavil of the papists. that Christ is the only mediator betwixt God and man. But how ought this to be understanded? Christ, say they, is the only Mediator of redemption, but not of intercession. For as he only hath redeemed us, and by his death and blood sheadding, he hath made atonement betwixt god and us: Answer to the cavil. so the blessed virgin Mary and other holy Saints in heaven, are mediators of intercession, praying for us unto God the father, and to his son jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Phil●lethes. I would fain know where they learn this in the scriptures and word of God. first, Paul in the place that we alleged last, doth plainly show that there can be no mediator, None can be our mediator except he be also out redeemer. except he be a redeemer also. But they grant, that Christ only hath redeemed us. Whereby it followeth that Christ only is a mediator. And so the scriptures appoint him, I mean, to be our mediator, advocate, & intercessor, even after his glorious resurrection & ascension, when he had already by his death & bloodsheding fully reconciled God unto us: Roma. 8. For thus doth saint Paul write: It is Christ which is dead, yea rather, which is risen again, which is also on the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us. Heb. 7. And in an other place: Among them (saith he) many were made priests, because they were not suffered to endure, by the reason of death. But this man, because he endureth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood. Wherefore he is able also perfectly to save them, that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for us. In this text have we many goodly lessons set forth unto us: for sith he hath an everlasting priesthood they must needs confess that they be all most shameful blasphemors, that either make themselves his successors, or pretend any other sacrifice, than he himself offered once forever upon the altar of the cross. And showing the fruits of this everlasting priesthood, he saith, that he is able by reason of it to save fully and to the uttermost, all those that come unto god by him▪ where we learn who they he, Whom our saviour jesus Christ will save. john. 14. whom our saviour jesus Christ will save, even those the seek to come unto god by him. Which agreeth well with that which he saith himself in john, where he speaketh those words: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me. They than that seek to come unto God by any other mean or way than by our saviour jesus Christ, can look for no salvation at his hands. In what case then, are all those that by the dead saints do seek to come to God? But this aught to be most comfortable of all, where he saith, Hebr, 9 that Christ liveth for ever, to make intercession for us. Whereunto may be added, 1 john 2. that Christ is entered into heaven for to appear in the sight of God for us. Again, saith the holy evangelist saint john: If any man sin, we have an advocate with the father, jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the satisfaction for our sins. Where besides all other doctrines, we do learn that Christ is our only advocate and atonement maker. For the office of intercession, and redemption, are so jointly joined together, out of this present life, the mediation or intercession can be ascribed unto none, but the redemption must be attributed unto them also. For why is our saviour jesus Christ our advocate with the father, but because that he is both righteous, August 1 john. 2. & also the full satisfaction for our sins? S. Augustin writing upon this text of john saith these words: Videre ipsum joannem seruamtem humilitatem. Certe vir justus erat & magnus qui do pectore domini mysteriorum secret● bibebat. Ille, ille qui bibendo de pectore domini divinitatem eructavit: In principio erat verbum, & verbum erat apud Deum. Ille talis vir non dixit: Aduocatum habetis apud patrem, sed si quis peccaverit inquit, advocatum habemus apud parten: non dixit habetis: nec me habetis, dixit, nec ipsum Christum habetis, dixit. Sed Christum posuit non se, & habemus, dixit, non habetis. Maluit se ponete in numero peccatorum, ut Christum haberet advoucatum: quam ponere se pro Christo advocatum, & inveniti inter damn●ndos superbos. Which may be englished thus: Ste john himself keeping his humility and lowliness. Truly he was a righteous and a great man, ●om. 1. which drank out of the lords breast the secrets of heavenly mysteries. He he, who drinking out of the lords breast, uttered forth the divinity, saying: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God. He being such a man did not say: Ye have an advocate with the Father, but if any man doth sin, we have an advocate with the father, He said not: ye have neither did he say: ye have me, ●ike this ●l. neither did he say: ye have Christ. But he did put Christ & not himself: again, he did say, we have and not ye have▪ he had liever to put himself in the number of sinners, that he might have Christ, to his advocate, than to put himself an advocate or intercessor for Christ, and to be found among the proud damned. brethren, we have an advocate with the Father, even jesus Christ himself. And he is the propitiation or satisfaction for our sins. He that hath holden this faith, hath done no heresy, he that hath holden this opinion, hath caused no schism or division. For, whence do breed schisms and divisions? When men do say, we are just, when men do say, we do sanctify the unclean, we do justify the ungodly, we ask, we obtain. But what sayeth john? Si quis peccaverit advocatum habemus apud patrem jesum Christum justum If any man doth sin, we have an advocate with the father jesus Christ the righteous. Didymus. But now a days among a great many, and specially where Papistry doth reign, Heresy and schism is laid unto them that ●eache the ●rue invocation of god and the ●nly mediation of his son jesus Christ who soever dareth affirm the Christ is our only advocate, mediator, and intercessor, he shallbe taken both for an heretic and for a schismatic. Why do they not then lay both heresy, and schism to Saint Augustine's charge? Eutrapelus. But that they do fear the people, which beginneth now to see without their rusty spectacles, without all peradventure they would do it. PHIL. This holy father doth in an other place, writ in a manner the like of the blessed apostle. Augu●t li. 2. contra epistolam parmenia ni ca 8. S. Paul: Christian men (saith he) do pray one for an other in their prayers. But he for whom no man doth pray, but he for all men, is the only and true mediator. Paul the apostle although he was a chief member under the head, yet because that he was a member of the body of Christ, and did know that the high and true priest of the church, was entered not into the holy places that are made with hands but into the very heaven, he doth also commend himself unto the prayers of the faithful. Neither doth he make himself mediator beetwixt god and the people, but desireth that all the membres of the body of Christ do pray one for an other: sith that the membres are careful one for an other: and if one suffereth, they do all suffer with it: So then let the mutual prayers of all the membres, that be yet here labouring upon the earth, ascend up unto the head, which is gone before into heaven, in whom is the satisfaction for our sins. Nam si esset mediator Paulus: essent utique & reliqui Apostoli, & sic multi mediatores essent, nec constaret ipsius Pauli ratio qua dixerat: unus enim deus, 1. Tim. 2 unus mediator dei & hominum, homo Christus, in quo & nos unum sumus, si seruamus unitatem fidei, in vinculo pacis, That is, for if Paul were a mediator, truly the other Apostles should be mediators also, and so there should be many mediators. Neither should Paul's reason stand, where he saith: for there is one God, one mediator of GOD and men, that man Christ in whom we also are one, if we keep the unity of faith in the bond of peace. But what need we so many words? When Paul did speak these words: There is one God, one mediator of God and men, that man jesus Christ had he not a respect unto the prayers that he spoke of before? For after that he had bidden the faithful congregation to make prayers and intercessions, for all estates and degrees of men, for a confirmation of his saying, he did add by and by: for, Ob●ect 7 there is one God, and one mediator betwixt God and men. Albion Scythe that Christ is appointed of the Father to be our judge how can he be our mediator? For these two can not stand together, Answer. to be both judge and mediator. Philalethes. They that have put this into your head, can not tell what they say. The time of grace and the time of judgement. For we must make a distinction betwixt the time of grace, and the time of judgement. In the time of grace, Christ is both our sovereign priest and also our only mediator between GOD and us, At the day of judgement all mediation and intercession making shall cease. as it is sufficiently declared in the Epistle to the Hebrews. But in the day of judgement, be shall come to be judge of the quick & of the dead. At that time, mediation & intercession making shall cease. Again, we must make a distinction betwixt the elect and the reprobate. for, he is the saviour and mediator of the elect and chosen, and the judge of the reprobate. For, none shall come into judgement, for to receive condemnation but the reprobate only, for as much as none shall be condemned but the wick and such as will not believe in the son of god. These are the words of our saviour jesus Christ. john 5. Verily verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him, that hath sent me, hath life everlasting, he shall not come into judgement or into condemnation, but is passed from death to life. And in an other place: god saith he, sent not his son into the world, that he should condemn the world, john. 3. but that the world through him might be saved: he that believeth in him shall not be condemned, but he that believeth not, john. 12 is already condemned, because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten son of god. Again: if any man hear my words and believe not, I judge him not. for, I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that refuseth me and received not my words, hath one that judgeth him the word that I have spoken shall judge him in the last day. By these words of Christ it doth plainly appear, first that as long as Christ, is in his priesthood, and sitteth in the throne of grace he doth not execute the office of a judge, but the office of a priest and mediator, and secondly that the faithful believers are delivered from the straightness, rigour, and severity of the judgement, whereby Christ shall judge the world in the last day. Therefore those scriptures, that do set forth unto us Christ's priesthood and the fruits thereof, ought most diligently to be considered, borne in mind and remembered. Them shall ye have as it hath been already declared before in the 7. and 9 chapter of the epistle to the hebrews, in which epistle, Hebr, 5. What ought be our shoot anchor. the apostle doth earnestly exhort us, to come unto the throne of mercy, and grace. This than ought to be our shoot ankre, that our saviour jesus Christ, is not only appointed of the father, to be our judge but also to be our mediator, advocate and intercessor, and that therefore we must endeavour ourselves to be of the numbered of the faithful believers, unto whom by the blood of our saviour jesus Christ, Math. 11 the way is open into the holy place, and unto the seat of grace, which is set forth of God, for all them that are laden, and do labour in this painful way of sin, wretchedness, and misery, so that they will take hold upon the promises of God, sealed up unto us by the blood of his only begotten son our saviour jesus Christ. Didy. Question We read and hear that our saviour jesus Christ maketh intercession for us: how I beseech you, ought this to be understanded? Is it to be thought that he is kneeling before the majesty of god his father, and that holding up his hands, and showing his wounds unto him, he doth pray for us? for such doctrine have we been taught heretofore. Philalethes. Answer to the question. We must have no such gross imagination of the intercession of the son of God. But with the apostle we ought to understand that Christ doth so stand or appear before the face or in the sight of GOD, that the virtue of his death shall stand and be unto us for a perpetual and everlasting intercession. Heb. 12. And for this cause, it is said, that his blood speaketh better things, The blood of Abel crieth for vengeance. Gene. 4. than the blood of Abel. for the blood of Abel, being shed with the hands of his cruelle brother Cain did from the earth cry unto the. LORD for vengeance: but the blood of our saviour jesus Christ, being once shed for us upon the aultare of the cross, and where through an everlasting Testament and priesthood is confirmed, and sealed up unto us, is in perpetual remembrance before GOD, and doth of him obtain continually, mercy unto us. Albion. Object 8 If we ought not to pray unto dead Saints, either because that we have no need of intercessors to godward, or else because that Christ is our only mediator betwixt his heavenly Father and us: why then, it shall not be lawful that we pray one for an other, james. 5. as james doth bid us, saying, Pray one for an other, that ye may be saved. Now if according to james saying, we may godly pray one for an other, who shall let, Answer. but that the Saints in heaven should pray and make intercession for us? Philalethes. All that hath been said hitherto, doth only tend to this, that we may understand that in the time of our trouble, we have access unto the father, through our only mediator, jesus Christ. Now, the prayers that we do here in this life, of a brotherly charity & love make one for another, be not repugnant unto that, but the doctrine of the invocation of dead Saints is all together repugnant. And as for the place, How the pla●e of james is to be understaded that ye have alleged out of james, be saith not there: Let some prey for the other, but, pray one for an other, that ye may be saved. whereby he requireth of us, an assured affiance, trust, and confidence in our heavenly father through his son jesus Christ, and such an earnest love towards our neighbour, that we counting his miseries troubles and adversities our own, we should at all times, with a good confidence commend his salvation unto God our heavenly father. The which thing, that form or manner of praying, which the eternal wisdom of the Father hath prescribed unto us, doth most chief req●●● of all his faithful congregation, bidding us to pray after this sort: Our father which art in heaven. etc. Who can say this prayer, but that he must pray for all the membres of the same body, that he is of? Again, do not the other like wise in this prayer, commend his salvation unto God? Moreover, the words of james be so, that by them we are bound to pray for those that pray for us. If the day saints than do make intercession for us, we are bound also to pray or make intercession for them. But that were to do the saints great injury and wrong. For thus it is written in their own canons, The canons do plainly affirm that to pray for the saint which be in heaven it is to do them injury. Iniutiam f●●it martyri, qui orat promartyre. He doth wrong unto a martyr, that prayeth for a martyr. secondly, we are commanded to pray one for an other, that we may be saved. Whereby it doth appear, that we ought to pray one for an other, whiles we are yet in the way of salvation, that we may speedily o●●ne to our ways end. But the dead Saints are already at their journeys end. The prayers that we make one for an other while we live what they do require and what they wor● In fine, this prayer that we make one for an other, whiles we are yet a live, first it requireth a confidence or boldness to pray unto god the father, and it is so far of that is should stop that access or way that by the blood of his son jesus Christ, is opened for us unto him, that rather it maketh it the easier. secondly it doth kin●ell, nourish, and increase in us a brotherly love. But the invocation of dead saints, doth quench them both. Albion Obie. 9 I think, that the Saints, that be already in heaven, do of a brotherly love pray for us. For, they are members of the same body, that we be of, and love us, and therefore, without all doubt, they do pray for us. Are not, Hierony. contra v●gilātium. I pray you, these Hieromes words against Vigilantius: Dicis in libello tuo, quod dum vivimus, 〈◊〉 pro nobis orato possimus, post quam autem mortui fuerimus, nullius sit pro ●ocxaudienda oratio, praesertim cum martyrs, sui sanguinis ●tionem obsecrantes, impetrate non quluerunt. That is: Thou sayest in thy book, that whiles we live, we may pray one for an other but after we be dead, reve. 6. no prayer that is made for an other, shallbe heard, specially sith that the martyrs praying for the vengeance of their blood, could not obtain their petition. If the Apostelle● and martyrs, can pray for other, when they ought yet to be careful for themselves, how much more do they pray after their crowns, Exod. 3●. Act. 7. victories and triumphe●? Moses' being one man doth obtain pardon for vi hundred thousand harnessed men: And Stephen being follower of his master and the first martyr in Christ doth pray for his persecutors, Act 27. and after that they begin to be with Christ, shall they be of less ableness? Paul the apostle saith the lxxvi. souls were given him in the ship. And shall he now being after his resolution with Christ hold his peace. and not be able to open his mouth for them that in all the whole world, did through his preaching believe to gospel? By these words of Jerome we do learn, that if the dead Saints whiles they were yet in the earth, did of a compassion and love, pray for their poor brethren whom they saw to be in misery, Answer. much more they will do the same being now in perfection, and in glory with they; head. Phialethes. It is easy to say, that the dead Saints do of a love that they bear unto us, being yet in the combat make intercession for us: but how can that be proved by the scriptures and word of God, without the which no manner of doctrine, aught to be received of the faithful congregation of God? If ye argue or reason after this sort: The dead Saints do love us, and therefore they pray for us: for, when they were yet in this life, they prayed diligently for their brethren, The argument of the papists beaten upon then own heads. whom they loved, by and by it may be answered, that they also did weep with them that did weep, shall we say, that they do now the same in heaven? for christian and brotherly love doth not only pray for the afflicted, but it doth also weep with them that do weep. Didymus. I am afraid brother Albion, that ye shall be feign to seek an other argument, for to prove that the dead Saints do pray for us? PHIL. Again, if they pray how do they pray I beseech you? whether do they particularly pray & make intercession for them, of whom they be called upon, A●gu li. de cu●a pro mor his agenda. & prayed to, or do they generally pray & make intercession for all us? Saint Augustine doth plainly affirm that the souls of the saints that be in heaven do not know what the living do here in earth. His words are these: If the souls of the dead were present in the matters or businesses of the living, or should talk with us, when we see them in our sleep (that if I should hold my peace of the other) my godly mother would never a night forsake me, which followed me both by sen & by land, that she might live in my company. For, God forfend, that she should in the blessedfull life be made more cruel: in so much that when any thing troubleth my heart, she would comfort me her son being in heaviness, whom she loved entirely, whom she would never see to be stricken in sadness. But verily the same, which the sacred psalm doth sound or set out, is true. Psal. ● My father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord hath taken me up. If then our parents have forsaken us: how he they present in our affairs, and carefulness, or in our ears? Now, if our parents be not present, who of the other dead, do know what we do, or what we suffer? Osaie the Prophet saith: Esa. 63. Thou art our father. Abraham was ignorant of us, and Israel knew us not. If these great patriarchs were ignorant what was done unto the people, that descended of them, unto whom believing in God, promise was made, that the same people should come of their stock, how are the dead present for to know and help the affairs and doings of the living? How shall we say that they have a good turn or are well provided for, which died afore the calamities did come, Note. which ensued and followed after their death, if after their decease they have also a feeling of those things that do chance in the calamity of man's life: Or do we peradventure through error speak these things, & judge them to be quiet whom the troublesome life of the living do unquiet? What is it then, that god doth for a great benefit promise unto that godly king josias, that he should die afore, lest he should see those calamities, plagues, and miseries which be threatened, should come upon the place & upon the people. These are gods words: Thus saith the Lord god of Israel. 2. Kin. 22. 2 Chr 34. The words that thou hast heard shall come to pass. But because thine heart did melt & thou didst humble thyself before god, when thou heardest his words against this place, & against the inhabitants thereof, & humblest thyself before me, & tarest thy clothes, and didst weep before me, I have also heard it, saith the Lord. Behold I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be put in thy grave in peace, and thine eyes shall not see all the evil, which I will bring upon this place, & upon the inhabitants of the same. He being frayed with the threatenings of God had wept, and torn his clothes, and therefore, he was certified that he should be taken away by death, and so rest in peace, that he should not see all those evils. Ibi ergo sunt spiritus Defunctorum, ubi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eveniunt in ista vita hominum, Where the spirits of the godly be. There, therefore are the souls of them that be departed, where they do not see all those things that are done, or do chance in the life of men. These are saint Augustine's words, who doth plainly deny, that the blessed souls of the dead, do intermeddle themselves to know and help the affairs of the living, yea he doth plainly affirm, Sith that the dead saints know nothing of all that is done here it is in vain to pray unto them Question that they be utterly ignorant what is done in the life of men. If this be true (as that can not be false which is proved by the holy scriptures) truly the salvation & necessity either of the dead or of the living is in vain committed to the intercession of them that know nothing thereof. We do believe in vain, that they do pray unto the Lord for our present necessity, which know not that we are in any peril or danger. Didy. And may not they have intelligence & understanding of our affairs, either by the angels, or by them that go away hence from us, or else by god himself? Philalethes. Answer. Scythe that these ways of revelation are no where in the scriptures set forth unto us, and therefore be most uncertain: Why should we, It is foolishness to fly from that which is certain to ●hat which is vncer●a●e. I pray you, fly from those things that are most sure, most certain, and infallible, unto that which is doubtful, and not once mentioned of in all the whole body of the scriptures. Ye have heard how that this most holy father saint Augustine doth plainly confess, that the dead saints do not know our estate, or the case that we be in, nor yet be careful over us. Leaving then, that which is without any ground of the scriptures, let us steadfastly cleave unto that which is most surely grounded in god's book, wherein we are taught, that the blessed souls of the elect and choose of God, do rest in peace, being in glory with their head our saviour jesus Christ, who alone is appointed of god to be our mediator, advocate, and intercessor. Albion. But what will ye say to Hieromes clerkly sayings? ye see that he doth plainly hold opinion, that the dead saints do pray for us. Philalethes. As for Jerome, How Jerome did overshoot himself in this matter. I do with all due reverento: acknowledge him to do a most worthy instrument of God, howbeit in this master he hath declared himself, that he was a man. And verily I do marvel that being so great a clerk as he was, would build the doctrine of the praising of the dead saints for us, upon such weak arguments: For, who will say that the Saints do now the same in heaven, that they did in the earth? But Jerome sayeth none other thing, neither doth he with any other arguments, prove that the saints do pray for us in heaven. Hieromes weak arguments. If (saith he) they did pray for us in the earth, how much more shall they do it now after their crowns, Act. 27. victories and triumphs? If two hundred. lxxvi. souls were given unto Paul praying: here in the earth, how many more shall be given unto him praying now in heaven? I grant that god hath done good unto men here in the earth through the ministry and prayers of his servants, Why god did good unto men here in the earth by the ministry and prayers of his servants. but to what end, I pray you? even to this end that they should believe the word of god set forth by his true ministers? But the ministers did all with one doctrine teach us to call upon god only in all ●●re necessities. Now the doctrine of the prayers of the saints, and of their intercession for us in heaven doth pull us away from god, Hiero in L●c, 14. and causeth us to put some trust, hope and confidence in the creatures. Which Jerome himself doth strongly impugn, saying: The righteousness of the righteous shallbe upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall remain upon him. Every man shall die through his own sin, and every man shall live through his own righteousness. john. 8. The jews do say in vain▪ Abraham is our father sith that they have not the works of Abraham. If we should put our trust in any, let us put our trust in god. liere 17. Psal 146. Cursed be every man, that putteth his trust in men, although they be saints, although they be prophets. We read, Put not your trust in men. Again: better it is to trust in god, than in princes. Not only in the princes of the world, but in the princes of the church, which if they be righteous, they shall deliver their own souls only. These are Hieromes words. Let us, therefore, hope, in the lord our GOD, and sith that we have not one jot in the Canonical Scriptures of the intercession of the Saints for us in heaven, nor any example, that they do pray unto the father for us, let us boldly rejecting this idolatrous invocation of the dead saints, and the vain and fond doctrine of their intercession for us unto God, call upon our heavenly father, through his son jesus Christ, though an angel from heaven should teach the contrary. I do here let pass that in the book, which this holy father did write against Vigilantius, there is more furious bitterness to be found than either modesty or learning, which may be proved by the censure of Erasmus, The censure of Erasmus upon Hieromes book against vigilantius. which is this: lo vigilantium ita convitiis debacehator Hieronymus, ut plusculum in eo modestiae eogar desyderare: utinam argumentis dunta●at egisset, & à convitiis temperasser. That is, Jerome doth 〈◊〉 with reviling words rail against Vigilantius, that I am fain to find a lark of modesty in him, would god he had only sosughten with arguments, and had refrained from reviling and opprobrious words. For, take away these railing words: Caupo Calagutitanus, Dormitantius, Herculis monstra, Loviathan, & Behemoth, The taunces of Hierom against vigilantius. take away his chi●yng, brawling, and scolding, take away his subtle conue●ance in the torrke. Take away his exclamations, translations, tragical amplifications, his swelling and bragging words, and nothing almost shall be left unto the reader, that hath any savour of the prophetical and apostolical simplicity. Albion. Obie. 10 Yet this holy father doth plainly affirm, that the devils did roar out, at the relics of Saint Andrew, and that great miracles and wonders at the dust and ashes of the martyrs, have been wrought, and the unclean spirits tormented. Which thing he doth prove by the example of certain emperors, kings, and bishops, saying: If it be not lawful to shrine up, and to translate the relics of the saints, than was Archadius with Constantine a sacrilege, all the bishops were not only sacrileges, but to be also counted very beasts & fools, which did carry so vile a thing, and ashes in silk and in a golden vessel. Philalethes. As touching the first, Answer. I answer that the devils did not roar out because of saint Andrew's dry bones, Whythe devil did roa● ou●e at saint An drewes relics. but because of Christ, whom the holy Apostle Saint Andrew had preached. And as touching the miracles, & wonders, that he doth speak of, who doth not see, that thin good man having forgotten himself, did attribute the same unto the dead bones of the Saints, which the true servants of god, being alive would never have suffered to be attributed unto them? Neither ought his examples to in due us any thing For in receiving or setting out religion, The fact of a private man in matters of religion proveth nothing. the private fact or deed of men, proveth nothing, unless it be manifest, that it is well done. But that only is well done which is boon by the authority of the scriptures, and not against the law of God. Now if we should read the whole Bible over, and call to remembrance all the examples of the true and faithful servants of God, mentioned of in the scriptures, A poor help in time is much waith. we shall not find there one only jot or syllable of the gathering translating, or honouring of the relics of the Saints. DIDYMVS. It seemeth, that ye do now condemn Constantine, and Archadius, and those godly bishops, with Helen● the mother of Constantine the great, whose examples Jerome doth bring forth for the probation of his doctrine. Philalethes. It followeth not, because I do disallow their fact in this point, that therefore I do utterly condemn them, or lay any sacrilege to their charge. The holy Apostle doth write after this manner of his contreymen the jews: Rom. 9 I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. And I do not doubt, but that they did of a zeal that which they did, but in the mean while they did minister a great occasion of stumbling to them that came after. Whereby it followeth that they sinned grievously against the Lord. 1 Ch. ca 17 The holy scripture doth say thus of josaphat. And the Lord was with josaphat, because that he walked in the first ways of David his father, and sought not Baalim, but sought the Lord GOD of his father, and walked in his commandements, and not after the trade of Israel. Again, 1 Cht 20. he walked in the way of Asa his father, and departed not there from doing that, which was right in the sight of God. Howbeit the high places were not taken away. For the people had noy yet prepared their hearts unto the god of their fathers. Who would utterly condemn this holy prince for that error, or lay any sacrilege to his charge? But who would again allow that which he did? So we ought not by and by to condemn those godly princes Constantine and Archadius, Constantine Arc●●dius with the bishops, much less to lay sacrilege to their charge, whom we believe to be in blessedfulness with their head and king our saviour jesus Christ. Yet in the mean while we may not allow that fact of theirs, for asmuch as it was without any warrant or example of the scriptures. Gedeon, Gedeon. among the judges of Israel was counted most upright and most godly: and yet being carried away with to great a zeal toward religion, he sinned most grievously against the Lord his God: For, having gathered together of the pray of the enemies, earerynges and other like jewels of gold, he did make unto himself an Ephod, Would god all kin●e, & princes that in profe● Christ would ma● this history. not for to set up a new religion 〈◊〉 strange worshipping, but for a memorial of the great victory, that god had given him against his enemies. At the first it did not seem to be any great offence, but at length by the reason of it, great Idolatry was committed in the land, as the holy scripture doth testify, saying: And all Israel went a whoring after it in Ophra, which was the destruction of Gedeon, & his house. if Gedeon had been wise, he should have asked council of god's word, and not followed his good intent. If those godly bishops, & emperors that Jerome doth speak of, had asked council of the scriptures, and had been ruled by them, they would not have opened the sepulchres or graves of the dead, nor yet set forth their bones to be worshipped. For, unto whom of the Saints either in the new or in the old Testament was ever this done? Eutra. If men would have contented themselves with the same rule, that God hath prescribed unto us in his word, and with the laudable examples of the same such inconveniences would not have grown in the church nor yet could such abominable idolatry have taken place among christian men, as we see, now to reign almost in all places. Ph This shall we find written of Moses: Den. 34. The history of the death and burying of Moses. So Moses the servant of the lord, died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the lord, and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor, but no man knoweth os his sepulchre unto this day. If the taking up & translating of dead men's bodies had been expedient for the glory of God, & for the salvation of men, verily the lord would not have hidden such precious relics of his well beloved and faithful servant: For, without all controversy Moses was the chiefest among all the prophets, of whom we do read after this manner: Nun. 12 If there be a prophet of the lord among you, I will be known to him by a vision, & will speak unto him by dream. My servant Moses is not so who is faithful in all mine house. Unto him will I speak mouth to mouth, and by vision, and not in dark words, but he shall see the similitude of the lord. This place doth the holy Apostle allege in his epistle to the hebrews. And yet for all this, Moses being such a man, is neither translated, nor laid up in a golden or silver shrine, there is no chapel nor church builded for him, he is not carried about in procession among a sort of superstitious men. There were some at that time, that would gladly have done it, and would have spared no cost at all. Do we not read in the Apochryphes that there was a strife betwixt the angels and the devil about the body of Moses, whereof Jude maketh mention in his Epistle? And doubtless, judes p●stle. this was because that the devil would keep above the ground the body of the faithful servant of god, and bring it forth unto superstitious men for to be worshipped▪ which thing, the good angels perceiving what abominable idolatry would have risen thereupon, would in no wise suffer, having a respect unto the glory of God, and to men's salvation, which next unto god's glory, they do seek above all things. Albion. Do we not reed in the first book of Moses, that the Israelites, did enba●● the body of joseph & did put it up in a chest in Egypt. This, I am sure, is an example of the Canonical scriptures. Ph● Answer. I do not deny it. But no man is able to prove, that the Israelites kept the body or bones of joseph for to have them to be worshipped. For, no man did fall or kneel down before joseph's tomb no man did bring the chest that his body or bones were in, into the Tabernacle, no man did light candles or tapers before it. But joseph would by this mean confirm and establish the faith of his people in the promises of g●d, 〈…〉 ●ouching the land of be hest. For, so doth joseph say to his brethren: I am ready to die and god will surely visit you, and br●ng you out of this land, unto the land, which h● swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, & unto jacob. And joseph took an other of the children of Israel saying, God will surely visit you, and y● shall carry my bones hence. Paul beyne a faithful expositor of this fact or deed of joseph by faith, Hebr ●1 saith he, joseph, when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel, and gave co●●aundement of his bones. That is, because he doubted nothing of the word and promise of god therefore did he command his brethren at their going out of Egypt to carry out his bones into the land of Chanaan. So sure was he that the lord would according unto his promises, bring the children of Israel out of Egipte into the land, that he had promised unto their forefathers. After Moses, there were none among the prophets more samous 〈◊〉 of greater renown than Samuel, and H●lias were. Samuel. Helias. 〈…〉. 5 2 K●n, 2. Yet we do not reed that any memorial was appointed or set up for him. For the holy scripture doth plainly speak of his death and burying after this manner: Samuel died and all Israel did gather themselves together, and did weep for him, & did bury him in his house in ●ama. 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken up in a sy●e chariot not into a temple made with hands, but into heaven, partly that in that ex●mple we might have a most infallible testimony of our immortality, and of that most excellent re●a●de, that GOD hath prepared and laid up for his faithful prophets, and partly that by this mean all occasion of worshipping this holy prophets body might be taken away. Some of the ancient writers are of opinion, that the body of the blessed virgin mary, Epiphani was either by the angels carried up into heaven, or else by their ministry, buried in such a place, as is known unto no man unto this day, because that god would not have that chosen vessel, the temple of his holy spirit, and the mother of his only begotten son, to be made anidole of superstitious and evil disposed persons. The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophet: Elizeus ●. Kin, 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him. And certain bands of the Moabites came in to the land that year. And as they were burying a man, behold they saw the soldiers, therefore they did cast, the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus, and when the man was down, and touched the bones of Elizeus, he revived or lived again, and stood upon his feet. And yet we read not, that after this miracle, the bones of Elizeus were taken up, and translated, or that there was any pilgrimage appointed unto them, or a church of. S. Elizeus builded and set up. We read in Ecclesiasticus, or in the book of jesus the son of sirach that after Elizeus death, Eccl. ●8 his body prophesied and that as he did wonders in his life, so in death were his works marvelous. And that yet for all this, the people repented not, nor departed from their sins. Why the dead that ●●a. cast in to ● Elizeus ●●au● ta●e● again. It doth appear them that this miracle was not done, for to teach the people, to worship or to give godly honour unto the faithful servants of god, but that thereby, the authority of Elizeus, whose doctrine in his life they contemned, might be confirmed, & that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine, and turn again unto the lord their god, with all speed, and so escape the destruction that hung over their heads for their stubborness disobedience and rebellion. 1. Kin. ●●. Under that most holy & godly prince josias, when the bones of the falls prophets were brent, the sepulchre of the man of god was not once touched: & yet we read not that there was any pilgrimage used to it. Ob●e. 12. D●. All these examples, are only examples of the old Testament: But what examples can ye bring out of the neve? PHILA. Answer. Math. 11. Math 14. Act. ●. Among them the are borne of women, there arose not a greater (as our saviour jesus Christ doth testify himself) than john Baptist. But the holy evangelist S. Matthew writeth thus of him: And when john was beheaded, his disciples came, and took up his body and did bury it. Of Stephen the first martyr of Christ, Luke in the Acts of the apostles doth write on this manner: And certain men fearing god, carried Stephen among them to be buried, & made great lamentation for him. If the taking up or translating of the bodies of the dead Saints had been profitable unto the church of Christ, neither the old ancient church that was afore him, nor yet the primitive church that was next after him, should have wanted it or been without such honouring of the faithful servants of god if god would have them to be honoured after the same sort. Therefore let no man marvel that I will in no wise allow the doings of kings, and princes, and of bishops, which be contrary to the scriptures and word of god, and that I do utterly reject the arguments of Jerome, The aucto●● of ●od 〈…〉 as both weak and repugnant unto gods holy and sacred book, the warrant and authority of which, ought to be preferred before the authority of angels, much more, then, before the authority of corruptible and mortal men. I would wish, that leaving the bodies of the dead Saints in the place appointed of God for them, there to rest in peace, and in hope of their glorious rising again, we should have in due reverence their true reliks which are, 〈…〉. the example of their steadfast faith and belief, their godly life and conversation, and their sound doctrine that they have left behind them for our instruction, and the edifying of the true church of god. Albion. I marvel, that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius. Doth not this holy father and doctor of the holy catholic church, I pray you, lay to his charge, that he did raise up again, and revive the heresy of the Caines, which as a Scorpion, did venom the whole body of the church? It appeareth by the book which Tertullian did write of heresies, Te●●. li. ha●●. where he speaketh of the errors of the Ophites, and Chaldeis, which were cain's, or Cainites, that the same heresy did deny the resurrection of the flesh. Hierom contra Vigilantium. Jerome doth that Vigilant with many heresies, but how timely ye shall after wards know. And therefore Jerome sayeth: Mortuum suspicaris, & ideirco blasphemas. Lege evangelium, Deus Abraham, Deus Isaac, & Deus jacob, non est deus mortuorum, sed viventium. Thou dost (saith, he) suspect that he is dead, and therefore dost thou blaspheme. Read the gospel: The God of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of jacob. He is not the GOD of the dead, but of the living. Again, doth he not charge him with the heresy of the Eunomians, his words are these: Rides de reliquis martyrum, & cum autore huius haereseos Eunomio, ecclesus Christi calumniam struis, nec tali societate terreris, ut cadem contra nos loquaris, qux illè contra Ecclesiam loquitur? Omnes, enim, sectatores cius Basilicas Apostolorum & martyrum non ingrediuntur, ut scilicet mortuum adorent Eunomium, cuius libros maioris autoritatis arbitrantur, quam evangelia. That is to say, doest thou make a laughing stock of the relics of the martyrs, and with the author of this heresy Cunomius, bring a calumny or slander upon the churches of CHRIST, neither art thou frayed with such fellowship, that thou darest speak the same against us, that he speaketh against the Church? For, all his disciples or sectatoures and followers, do not enter into the churches of the martyrs and apostles, that so they may worship Eunomius being dead, whose books they do judge to give of greater authority than the Gospels. If these things be true, small credit, Answer. ought to be given unto him. PHILALETHES. And I wonder and marvel that this holy Father durst say any such thing to Vigilantius charge. How falsely Hierom d●i lay those heresies to Vigilantius charge. For as touching the first, Vigilantius never denied the resurrection or rising again of the flesh, nor yet the Salvation of the same, but did only resist the superstitious worshipping of it in the dead creatures. Doth he I pray you, deny the resurrection of the flesh that doth forbid the superstitious worshipping of it? Sai●● August●●▪ 〈◊〉 heresies of the C● 〈…〉 Saint Augustin in his book of heresies, saith, that the Caines were smitten with such blindness, that they worshipped that wicked man Cain, and Jerome is not ashamed to call them Cainites, which will not worship men, nor the bones of men. This foul name ought rather to be given unto them that teach and maintain the idolatrous woorshypping of dead men. Eunomius and 〈…〉. Now as touching the second. Eunomius was a great portion of Arrius, and therefore he did deny the divinity or godhead of Christ, whereof it came to pass, that he did utterly despise the testimonies of the Apostles and martyrs, which they hare unto our saviour jesus Christ: yea he contemned also the bodies of the saints, and the miracles that virtue of Christ did work about them for a testimony and proof of his godhead. He had written books against Christ, The deference is 〈◊〉 and did attribute the miracles of the holy Apostles unto the power of Satan. But Vigilantius did neither deny the godhead or Christ, ●ilantius ●nd ●uno ●●s. nor yet did in any wise contemn the bodies of the saints, nor the miracles that were wrought and done about them, as Eunomius, according to his damnable heresy, had done, but he did teach to worship one God, whom the martyrs did preach, and whereunto the miracles that were wrought did lead us: howbeit he did catholicly forbid, that the bones of the dead should in no wise be worshipped: and yet being of so an upright and sound judgement, he is of Jerome most shamefully condemned of heresy, though he could not be ignorant, that there was great difference betwixt the faith and religion of Vigilantius, and the abominable heresy of Eunomius. Where ●●e o●e ●●d ●●ara● the ●tick that ●e 〈◊〉 against ●i●i●antius. Eutrapelus, This had Hierom learned of his Rhetoricians, which do teach that we must with odious names and titles urge them, whom we can not overcome with just arguments. Philalethes All men I trust, do well s●t▪ what weak arguments Jerome did bring, and how that he did wrongfully burden Vigilantius with the heresy of the Cainites and of Eunomius, sith that he did both confess Christ his divinity and godhead, and also the resurrection or rising again of the flesh. Therefore, fearing nothing such odions titles and names, that the enemies of the truth be wont to defame us with all, let us attribute more to the infallible testimonies of the scriptures, then to the weak reasons & arguments either of Jerome, or of any other besides, though he were an angel that came down from heaven, sith that in the mattiers of religion, we ought to believe or credit no man, because that he is either learned or holy, but because that he doth strongly prove by the undoubted and infallible tertes and authorities of the scriptures the thing that he doth take in hand to teach. Nothing is here spok● in the dispraise of Jerome. I have not spoken this, of any affection, or in the dispraise of that holy father, but in the defence of the truth, and for the edifying or profit of the faithful congregation. I gladly always acknowledge and reverence in him the excellent gifts of GOD, but in the mean while we do also confess, that he did as man write and set forth many things, which we can not with a safe conscience receive or allow. Albion. Obie. 13 Cypri li●e pi. prima. Thus, I am sure, doth the holy martyr S. Cyprian, writ in his Epi. 10 Cornelius: Memores nostri invicem simus concorders atque vnanimes utrobique pro nobis semp oremus, pressuras & angustias mutua charitate relevemus, & si quis hinc nostrum prior divinae dignationis celeritate praecesserit, perseveret apud Deum nostra dilectio, pro fratribus & sorotibus nostris apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio, That is to say: Let us be mindful one of an other, and being of one heart & mind both where, let us always pray for each other, and with mutual charity and love, relieve our afflictions and troubles or anguishes: And if any of us do by the divine calling of God, or by the celerity or quickness of his divine dignation, will, or pleasure, depart hence afore, ●ette our love persevere or continue with God, and our prayer in no wise cease unto the mercy of GOD, for our brethren and sisters, whiles they are here. These words of the holy martyr do plainly testify, that the dead Saints do pray for us, Answer. Cyp●● de lapsis. as long as we be here in this vale of misery. Phila. None can better make answer to that, which ye have alleged than Cyprian himself. For, in his sermon de lapsis, he saith plainly thus: God only can have mercy. He only can give pardon, to the sins, that are committed against him, which did bear our sins, which did sorrow for us, whom god did deliver for our sins. Man can not be greater than god, nor yet remit or forgive that by his own indulgence or pardon, which with a heinous fault is committed against the lord, lest this also be imputed unto him for a greater crime or offered, if he should be ignorant, that it hath been said before: Huc. ● Math. ● Mat. 8. luke 9 Cursed be every man that putteth no trust in man. The lord ought to be prayed to, the lord ought: by our satisfaction to be pleased, which sayeth, that he will deny him, of whom he is denied, and which alone hath received all judgement of the father. And to those doth he add by and by: Although the works of the righteous, do avail much before the judge, yet the same which is promised by man's promiss, is not by and by granted by the divine majesty of God. Noah. Gene. 6. Daniel Danie. 6. What was more righteous than Noah, who when the earth was replenished with sin, was sound alone to be righteous. What was stronger than Daniel, to suffer martyrdom, through the constancy and steadfastness of his faith, more fortunate through the favour of God, who as often as he did combat, he did overcome, and when he did overcome, he did overlyve? what was more prompt and ready in works than job, job. stronger in tentation, more patient in sorrow, more lowly and humble in fear, truer in faith, and yet, if they had prayed, God said, he would not have granted them their petition, for, when ezechiel prayed for the sins of the people. When a land, saith he, sinneth against me by committing a trespass, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, Eze. 14. and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and I will destroy man and beast forth of it. Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and job, were among them: they should deliver but their own souls by their own righteousness: they should save neither sons nor daughters, but they alone should be saved. And so all that is asked, is not in the prejudice and power of him that asketh but in the will of him that giveth, neither doth man's sentence or judgement challenge or claim here any thing unto itself, unless the divine censure doth grant it. And a little after: They can do nothing against the Gospel which for the gospel are made martyrs. Let no man, well beloved brethren, defame the dignity of martyrs, let no man destroy their glories and crowns. The strength of the incorruptible faith remaineth safe, neither can he say or do any thing against Christ, whose whole hope, faith and glory, A short exposition of Cyprians words. is altogether in Christ. Eutrape. If the Lord only can give pardon of sins: if the servant can not forgive that which is committed against the master: if he be accursed the putteth his trust in man: if the Lord, & not a creature ought to be prayed unto: if that which is asked, doth not slande in the will of the asker, but in the will and pleausre of the giver: if they that are most righteous shall only deliver themselves, and not their sons & daughters: if the martyrs say or do nothing against Christ: how much (I beseech you) can they gather out of the authority of Cyprian for to confirm their doctrine of their idolatrous invocation of the saints. If all things be well considered, this seemeth rather to have escaped him than otherwise, This is much like ●nto the comm●ne saying ●od h●ue mercy on his soul. Au. de pastoribus. cap 8. Psal. 121. when he did thus of a fervent love write to his friend and brother in Christ Cornelius. The fervent love I say, that he bore unto him, did by a certain violence extort this of him. PHILALE. Ye shall also hear what Saint Augustine in his book De Pastoribus sayeth: There be also (sayeth he) good mountains. I have lifted up mine eyes unto the Mountains, from whence help shall come unto me. My help (sayeth he) is from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. Do not think that thou dost any injury unto the holy mountains, when thou sayest: My help is not in the mountains, but my help is from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. The mountains their selves do cry out the same unto thee. He was a mountain that did cry out: I hear that there be schisms or divisions among you, so that every one of you doth say: I am Paul's, I am Apollo's, 1. Corin. ● I am Cephas, I am Christ's. List up thine eyes unto that mountain, hear what he saith, and remain in him. Hear also what followeth. Whether was Paul crucified for you? Therefore when thou hast lifted up thine eyes unto the mountains from whence help cometh unto thee, that is, unto the authors of the scriptures, hearken unto him, that with all his marrow, that with all his bones doth cry out. Lord, who is like unto thee? that thou being sure or certified, mayst without any injury of the mountains say: My help cometh from the lord which hath made heaven and earth. It shallbe so far of, that then the mountains will be angry with thee, that then they will both love & favour thee the more. If we put our trust in the faithful servants of god then will 〈◊〉 be in●● with 〈◊〉. reve. 12. If thou dost put thy hope in them, then will they be sorry. The angel which did show many heavenvly wondered things unto man, was worshipped of man but the angel revoking him unto the lord, as he was lifting up his eyes unto a mountain, said: Do it not, worship him. For, I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren. Obie. 14 What, I beseech you, could be spoken more plainly than this: All our help is from God, who in all perils must be called upon. If thou puttest thy hope in God, the saints do love thee, Au. con●●● faustrun M●●i●n. Answer. 〈…〉 in my book 〈…〉 ●●lle● the oue●th● 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 of w●●kes. if thou puttest thy confidence in them, they are sorry. Alb. Yet this holy father writings, Cotia Faustum, Manichaeum doth say, that the christian people did celebrate and keep together the memories of martyrs both to stir them up to ●●●ation or following of them, and that they might have fellowship with their merits, and be helped by their prayers. PHILA. As concerning me●●●s ●e have sufficiently spoken of them in our communication and talk, that we have had already touching the overthrow of the justification of works, and of the vain and fond doctrine of the Merits of men, and therefore we will come to this, where he saith: And that we may be helped by their prayers. Didy. There (me think) Augustine doth plainly affirm the invocation or calling upon, of the dead saints. For why should he else say, that the chirsten people did keep the me●ories or remembrances of the martyrs, that they might be helped by their prayers. Philaleth●▪ But how doth this agree with that, which he writeth both in this place, and also in the two and twentieth book De civitate Dei, and tenth chapter. He saith plainly in the place before alleged, that they did not set up altars, nor yet offered up sacrifices unto the martyrs. And in the book De civitate Dei, which we spoke of even now, he writeth thus: The Gentiles have builded temples, & set by altars, & ordained priests, and offered sacrifices unto their gods. But we do not build up temples unto our martyrs, as unto gods, but remembrances as unto dead men, whose spirits & souls do live with God. Neither do we there set up altars, in the which we should offer sacrifices unto martyrs, but we do offer sacrifices unto the only God of the martyrs, and ours, at the which sacrifice, as men of God, which have overcomed the world with their confession, they are in their place, and in their order named. And yet they be not called upon, or prayed unto, of the priest, that offereth the sacrifice. For, Prayers are ●●e sacrifices of the ele●● a●d ●●osen of god. he is the priest of god, & not theirs. Now this is most evident & plain, the prayers are the sacrifices of the saints, I mean of the elect and chosen people of God, being sanctified in the blood of his son jesus Christ: we may conclude then, even upon the words of S. Augustin, that prayers ought to be offered unto God only, and not unto the dead saints, that is, that God only, & not the dead saints, aught of all the godly to be called upon. Hereunto doth that belong and pertain, which he speaketh also in that place, saying Sancti vel homines vel angeli id sibi tribu● nolunt, quod uni deo deberi no●unt. Holy men or holy angels, will not have the same to be attributed unto them, which they know to be due unto God only. We may gather by this, that they will none of our prayers, nor of our invocation. The proud & devilish spirits do usurp that which doth pertain unto God only. Therefore, as Daniel would ask nothing of any man, Danie. ●. but of God only: so all the godly will in their prayers call upon none other, but on the true living God through his son jesus Christ our lord, and of him only ask all things that they have need of. Now as touching his opinion, whereby he doth think and suppose, that the souls of the righteous do pray for us in heaven, for as much as it is only grounded upon conjectures or guessing, and not upon the infallible word of God, nor upon any strong arguments or reasons taken out of the same, we may without any peril of our salvation, reject or refuse it, cleaving unto that which we have alleged before out of his book De cura pro mortuis agenda, where he goundeth himself altogether upon the holy scriptures, affirming that the blessed souls departed be passed all solicitude and care for the living. Albion. Now sith that the sayings of the fathers will not help, ●h ect 15 e●. 48 I will come to the plain scriptures. These are jacobs' words. The angel which hath delivered me from all evil, bless the children, & let my name be called upon them, and the name of my father's Abraham and Isaac. In this authority of the scriptures, they note two special things. first how that jacob doth confess, that he was delivered by the angel, and that this angel doth bless. Secondly how that his name and the name of his fathers should be called upon those children, which is as much, as if he should have said: They shall call upon my name, and upon the name of my forefathers. ●ach●. 1. hereunto do they add this place of Zacharye. And the angel of the Lord answered and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou be unmerciful to Jerusalem, and to the cities of juda, with whom thou hast been displeased now these three score and ten years. Hereby do we plainly learn, say they, that the angels do care for our miseries, and pray for us. They be also keepers & guides of men, yea they be appointed to wait upon them. For thus we read in Exodus: Exod. ●3. Behold, saith the lord, I send mine angel before thee to keep thee in thy way, & to bring thee to the place which I have prepared. And in the psalms: Psal 91. for, he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee in their hands, that thou hurt not thy foot against a stone. Dani. 10. The angels be also called precedents of realms, because that unto them whole countries be committed. Phil. First & foremost, as touching those things that be generally objected or brought against us of the angels, Answer. how they do bless & pray for us, how they are presidents, guides & keepers both of men and of realms, I have lieffer bring the answers of the ancient fathers, than mine own reasons. Lactantius in his divine institutions writeth after this manner: Lactanti insti. 2. li. ca 17. Neither hath God need of any name, sith that the is alone, nor the angels, sith they be immortal, will suffer themselves to be called gods, whose one and only office and duty is, to be at the commandment and beck of God. For, we say that the world is governed of god, as a province is by a ruler, whose apparitours, and officers no man will call his fellows in the government of the province. And yet they may do many things besides the commandment of the ruler, through his ignorance which is an human infirmity. But the ruler & governor of the whole world, who knoweth all things, and from whose eyes nothing is hidden, hath alone with his son, power over all things, neither is there any thing in the angels but a necessity to obey. Therefore, they will have no honour to be attributed unto them, whose honour is in god. But they which are revolted and fallen away from the ministry and service of god, do go about to challenge unto themselves, the name of god, and the worshipping of the gods. Saint Augustine, Au. lib. 10 de civitate dei. ca 12. doth in all things agree with Lactantius. What miracles soever (sayeth this holy father) be so divinely wrought & done, either by angels or by some other mean that they do commend the religion & worshipping of the only god, in whom only the blessedful life is: we must believe that they are truly done of them or by them which do love us according to the truth & godliness, God himself working in them. And (when the angels do hear us, god himself doth hear in them, as in his true temple not made with hands. Ibi. ca 16. And in an other place, if therefore any angels will have sacrifices to be offered unto themselves, they that will have the sacrifice to be offered not unto themselves, but unto god the creator of all things, whom they do serve, are to be preferred before them. For, hereby do they show how sincerely they love us, when by the sacrifice they will assubiectize us, not unto themselves, but unto him, by the contemplation of whom, they are blessed, and seek that we should come unto him, from whom they never went away. Although this had been sufficient for to answer all the objections, that can be made of the angels, yet will I for to make the matter more plain, add these few words, that is to say, how that the same is many times attributed unto angels, as unto the farther cause, which in deed doth properly pertain to god only, but is attributed unto the angels, as to ministers, instruments and means. Di. I do not well understand what your meaning is. Exod. 23. How the name of god 〈◊〉 in h●●●●●ed. Philalethes. I shall make you anon to understand it. In Exodus, the lord doth with exprsse words speak thus of his angel. My name (saith he) is in him, that is, I will give him mine authority, and whatsoever he shall do, he shall do it in my name, he shall do it by my virtue and power. So doth holy Stephen speak also: And when forty years were expired, Actu. 7. there appeared to him, in the wilderness of Mount Syna, an angel of the lord. Exo, 3. Then, by and by, doth he add: And the voice of the lord came unto him, saying: I am the god of thy fathers, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the GOD of jacob. Lo, he doth expressly call him GOD whom he had already called an angel, because that he understood, that the angel did all which he did in the name of God, and at his commandment. EUTRAPELUS. Sith that this angel doth call himself God, I do stedfastelye believe that he was christ, The angel of the g●● counsel, the ange●● of the testament. Augu. l● que. ●● ex od● 2. c. 3. the mediator, who is the eternal God, and who in the scriptures is called Angelus magni consilii. & angelus Testamenti, that is to say: the angel of great counsel, and the angel of the Testament. Philalethes. Ye do not believe amiss: For, Saint Augustine, in his questions upon Exodus, doth write of it on this manner: The Lord cried unto him out of the bush: The lord in the angel, or that lord & the angel, which is called the angel of great counsel▪ Tertull●● contra ●●xeam. and so christ is understanded, whereunto may be added the sayings of Tertullian in his book contra Praxeam. It is the son (saith he) who at the beginning did condemn that most proud tower, dashing out and destroying the tongues punishing the whole world, with violence of waters, raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom & Gomorre, being GOD of God. For, he did always come down to speak with men from Adam unto the patriarchs and prophets in vision, in dream. etc. Sith then that this angel of the testament, which is Christ, was promised unto Abraham: Israel could no better express the faith of his mind, than with these words: The angel which hath delivered me from all evil, bless these children. For, he understood the angel of great counsel, even the Lord jesus, who alone is the blessing, salvation, righteousness, and sanctification of his people. Albion. But what say ye to that which I alleged out of Zacharie? For, there he doth with express words testify, that the angel prayed unto God for the deliverance of the people: if the angels do pray for us, The place of the first chapter of zachary. why should not the blessed souls departed, pray also for us? Phil. What if by the same angel we should understand our saviour jesus Christ, who as mediator prayed for the salvation of his Church, which was then troubled, when all the countries about them, Hieron in zacharia. were at rest? Jerome himself writing upon this place, doth by the angel of the Lord, who stood among the myrrh trees, & who upon the occasion of the answer which they had made, whom the lord had sent throughout all the whole world, began so earnestly to pray for Jerusalem, and the cities of juda, understand the angel of great counsel. Again, let us by way of disputation grant, that the angels do pray or are careful for us. Shall ye be able to prove by it, that we ought therefore to call upon them, and displacing Christ, the only mediator betwixt god and men, to make them our mediators, advocates & intercessors, or that the blessed souls departed do make intercession for us, unto our heavenly father? Ye have learned before out of Saint Augustine, that the holy angels will in no wise suffer that any sacrifice should be offered unto them, The holy angels will have no sacrifices to be offered unto them, ergo they will not be prayed unto. but will have all sacrifices to be offered unto him only, whose servants they are. Now it is most plain, that the prayers of the faithful congregation, are called sacrifices, the angels then, who do only seek the glory of him, whom they do serve, will in no wise suffer that the faithful congregation, should ma●e any prayers unto them. Moreover what should the carefulness or prayers of the angels profit us, except we be first reconciled unto god. Exo. 33. The lord said unto Moses: Depart, go up from hence, thou and the people, (which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt) into the land, which I promised unto your forefathers: and I will send mine angel before thee. For, I will not go up with thee, because thou art a stiff-necked people, lest I consume thee in the way. Here the lord promised unto Moses & unto the people his an●el, but hear what followeth straight ways after. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they sorrowed, and no man did put on his best raiments. The scriptures do call the help and assistance of the angels, evil tidings as long as god is angry with us, and not yet reconciled. Therefore, Moses doth labour, as much as in him lieth, yea it is all his study and care, that god may be reconciled unto his people. Which thing, he goeth not about to obtain by desiring the angels to pray for him and the people, but by pouring out his whole heart before God. Now they that are reconciled unto God, do understand, that they are through Christ reconciled to him. Therefore, they do wholly depend upon God only, in him only do they rejoice, in him only have they their hole affiance and trust, they have no need of the intercession of angels, but do offer unto God only, their troubled spirit, their contrite and humbled heart. Which pleaseth the angels exceedingly well, Christ himself saying in his gosspel, that the angels do rejoice at the conversion of sinners. Let us therefore endeavour ourselves, that we may turn a right unto the Lord, & be reconciled ●●●o him, which thing must be done not by the intercession of angels, but by the grace only and intercession of our saviour I●sus Christ. Are not all angels ministering spirits, Hebr 1. sent forth to minister for their sakes, that shallbe heirs of salvation? Why do we not then rather worship, & call upon the lord of angels and of men, than upon men's fellow servants? reve. 22. When john had fallen down at the feet of the angel, this do oath he hear of the angel: See thou do it not for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them that keep the words of this book▪ worship God. Albion Ye have not yet answered to the words of jacob, where he saith: And let my name, & the name of my father's Abraham and Isaac be called upon them. My faithful guides did say unto me, that this is as much as if he should have said: And they shall call upon my name, & upon the name of my forefathers. Again: They did allege, that when Moses prayed for the people, he did speak these words: Exo. 34, Remember, O Lord, thy servants Abraham, Isaac, and jacob, unto whom thou did dost swear by thine own self. Lo (say they) Moses praying for the people, doth pray by the name of the holy patriarchs that were dead. 4. Kin. 1● These are also the words of the Lord. I will defend this City, and save it, for mine own sake, and for David my servants sake. Is it not most plain by this, that for the prayers and merits of the Saints, sinners are spared, whole nations and cities saved and preserved? PHILALE. your blind guides through ignorance of the holy tongue gather of a thing misunderstanded, Why jacob willed that his name should be called upon Ephraim and Manasses & wh●t his meaning was Esa 4. a foolish and fond conclusion, or rather a false and erroneous doctrine. jacob, otherwise called Israel did by adoption receive josephes' children in to the numbered of his own children, that they might have equal or even portion of the land of behest with them. And therefore (sayeth jacob) they shall bear my name, and not the name of my son joseph: they shall be called Jacob'S or Israel's children and not joseph's. This shall we find written in Esay the prophet: Then shall seven wives take hold of one man, and say, we will lay all our meat, and clothing together in common: tantum nomen tuum invoce tur super nos, only let thy name be called upon us, that is, only let us be called thy wives, and bear thy name, and so take away from us our opprobiousnes and shame. By as good reason may we by this text of Esay, prove that women ought to call upon the names of their husbands, when they be dead, as they can by the text that they do allege prove that Ephraim and Manasses joseph's children ought to have called upon the name of jacob, Danic. 9 Abraham and Isaac. Dominc (saith Daniel) respice civitatem, super quam invocatum est nomen tuum: lord look upon the city, that thy name is called upon, that is which is called by thy name, I mean the city of god. In like manner do they declare their blind ignorance, when they do bring in for the maintenance of their idolatrous invocation of the dead Saints, How the place brought out of the 32. chap. of Exodus ought to be understanded. these words of Moses: remember, O Lord, Abraham, Isaac, and jacob, as though this were like unto that which they have continually in their mouths, saying: Saint Abraham, ora pro nobis, saint Abraham pray for us, or obtain by thy prayers & merits, that god vouchsafe to forgive us our sins. Esa. 63. It is easy to see in the prophet Esay how little they did trust in the merits and intercessions of the forefathers. For there the hole church crieth out, saying: Where is thy zeal & thy strength, the multitude of thy mercies & of thy compassions? they are restrained from me. Doubtless thou art our father. For, Abraham knoweth us not, neither is Israel acquainted with us, but thou Lord, art our father and redeemer, and thy name is everlasting. Therefore, Moses did not call upon them, whom he know right well to be ignorant of the estate that they were in but upon the true living God our heavenly father, putting him in remembrance of his promises. For, with express words he saith: Remember thy servants, unto whom thou hast sworn by thyself, and unto whom thou hast said: he saith therefore, remember our fathers because the God had with an oath promised unto the fathers, that he would be the god of their seed: And of this promise doth he put god in remembrance, now at this present. And hereunto seemeth that to pertain, which the Lord himself doth speak in Exodus. The Lord god of your fathers, Exod 3. the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of jacob, hath sent me unto you. This is my name forever, and my memorial from generation to generation. Therefore, God would be so called and prayed unto, that is, he would be put in remembrance of his promises, not for his own, but for our own sake. But now that we have our saviour jesus Christ, in whose blood, both the promises and covenant be established and sealed up, in whose name should we offer up our prayers unto God, but in his only? Albion, What say ye to the last sentence? ye have not yet answered to it. Philalethes. It may be answered two manner ways. first, The expositor of the place that 〈◊〉 ale a●● out of. 4. K●●. 19 2 Sam 7. we must consider the promiss of God, that he made unto David, touching the seed that should come of him, and the stableness and eternity of his kingdom. The words of the promise are these: when thy days be fulfilled, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, and I will let up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy body, and will establish his kingdom. etc. These things are expounded by many, of king Solomon, and of his reign or kyngdomme, but no man will deny, but that the same may be understanded of the seed of David, or of his posterity or other kings that o● follow after him. For, this is most manifest and plain, that for this promise sake, many kings, and the whole realm were spared. 1. Kin. 15. In the history of Abiah, this promiss was renewed. For so we read there. And the heart of Abiah was not perfect with the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father. But for David's sake, the Lord his god, did give him a light in Jerusalem, and did set up his son after him, and established jerusalem. Now, this is as much, as if he had said: Therefore, God did not destroy Abiah, his kingdom, and the city of Jerusalem, because that God had promised, that he would not take away his mercy from the house of David, nor suffer that he should want seed or posterity, or that his kingdom should utterly decay. It is then evident and plain, that Abiah was spared, for the promise sake, that was made unto David: 4. Kin. 19 therefore it must follow necessarily that Ezechias was also spared for this promise sake, and that these sentences or sayings: I will defend this city for mine own sake: and for David my servants sake: and I will defend this city for mine own sake, & for mine own promiss sake, which I made unto David, be equipollent or of one force. Secondly thus may the answer be made: that God did spare both that city & realm for his own sake, and for his Christ's sake. For, the Prophets are wont by a figure called Antonomasia, to call our saviour jesus Christ, David. Antonomasia. And the promise, whereof we spoke before, was in very deed completed or fulfilled in Christ. Thus doth the Lord speak in ezechiel: I will, sayeth he, raise up a shepherd over them, Eze 34. and he shall feed them, even my servant David, he shall feed them, & he shallbe their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David shallbe the prince among them, I the Lord have spoken it. Hie. 23. The like place shall ye find in jeremy. But none of all the expositors did expound these places otherwise than of Christ, & the Gospel of john doth manifestly declare, that these Scriptures ought to be expounded of Christ. Therefore the Lord spared Jerusalem, for the Lord jesus Christ's sake, whom it behoved to be manifested in that city, and his name and doctrine, from thence to be published throughout all the whole world. Therefore, Daniel the prophet praying unto the Lord for the repairing of the city and of the temple, Danie. 9 maketh his prayer after this sort: Hear, O our God, the prayer of thy servant, make thy face to shine over the sanctuary, which is destroyed, for the lord sake. As if he should say: Our manners, our life and conversation did deserve other wise, but yet remember the lord thy Christ, whom thou hast promised unto us. Esa 2. For by isaiah and Micheas he had made this promise: It shallbe in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the lord, shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above all the hills, and all nations shall slow unto it. And many people shall go and say: Come, and let us come up to the mountain of the lord, to the house of the God of jacob, and he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths, for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the lord; from Jerusalem. when we do then by David understand our saviour jesus Christ, who in isaiah is of GOD called his servant, we bring no new exposition, nor yet wrest the Scriptures, but set forth the plain sense and meaning of the holy ghost, to the great commendation of the glory of our saviour jesus Christ. Albion. Obie. 16 job. ●. These words shall ye find written in job: call now, if any will answer thee, and turn thee to some of the Saints. Here are we expressly commanded in our troubles and afflictions to turn ourselves to the saints. Didymus. I thought that there had been no place in all the whole scriptures so plain for the praying unto the Saints as the same's is. Answer. The fondness of the adversaries in alleging of the scriptures. Philalethes. And I thought that the enemies of the truth, had never been so foolish as to have alleged that place for the maintenance and confirmation of their doctrine. For there they shoot altogether besides the cushion, not marking to what end Eliphas doth speak those words. Ye shall therefore understand that job did affirm, that plagues and calamities did not always happen for sin: which thing he proveth by his example. The true sense of the place, that they do allege out of the .5. of job For the Lord, saith he, hath not brought me into this calamity because of my sins, but according to his good will and pleasure. This will not his adversaries admit, and specially Eliphas, who goeth about to prove, that no calamity happeneth to any man, but only for his sins, and that no man is punished but only for his fault, proving besides that all men are sinners, and that no man is clean in the sight of God, although few do acknowledge the same (giving in the mean while a privy nip unto job, although he did not acknowledge himself to be a sinner, and this was because he understood not jobs meaning) and therefore they were taken away and cut of, in their ignorance. That this might be made more plain and manifest, he speaketh unto job after this manner: Call any man, that is name me any man. As if he should say: Bring me any man, that hath not by his wickedness and heinous sins deserved the calamity that is come upon him: turn thee to any of them that be called Saints, meaning, that it was impossible, for to find any in all the whole world, which did not deserve by his own sins to have trouble, adversity, and affliction. Albion. Obie. 17 Hiero. 15. What will ye say to these words of Hieremie? Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet have I no heart to this people. Why, say my gentlemen, should Hieremie speak so of the dead, except be know that they made intercession for the living? Philalethes. Answer. I may a great deal better reason after this manner: Sith that neither Moses nor Samuel did pray for the people of Israel, in that extreme peril that they were in, it appeareth that there was then no intercession of the dead. For, who of all the Saints should have takne thought for the people, if Moses did not? Who in this thing did exceed, and pass all men, whiles he did live. Therefore, thus I say, I might make mine argument against you, and your gentlemen: In the extreme necessity of the people, Moses made no intercession for them: it is most likely then that none at all did make intercession for them, The 〈◊〉 m●●●t of the papists 〈…〉 and beaten 〈◊〉 on ●●eir heads. sith that Moses did pass all men, in humanity, gentleness and mercy. The meaning of the prophet, then, was this: that God was so offended with the people, that he would in no wise spare them though Moses and Samuel, whose prayers he was wont to hear above all other, should make intercession for them. The like in a manner have we in the prophet ezechiel, Ez●●4 where the lord speaketh on this manner: If Noah, Daniel, and job were in the city, as truly as I live, they shall deliver neither sons ne daughters, but save their own souls in their righteousness. As if he should say: Though Noah, Daniel, and job, were then alive again, and made intercession for the people, they should not deliver their own sons and daughters, but should save only their onwe lives, in they: righteousness, my wrath, and indignation, is so kindled against that stiffnecked people. And so the afore alleged place of Hieremye ought to be understanded. For the words are as much, as if he should say: Though Moses and Samuel were now alive and stood before me, making intercession for this people, as they were wont to do, yet would I not for their sake, withdraw my plagues from this wicked and froward generation, I would not hear them, nor give ears unto their prayers, but would in my fury destroy this rebellious and stiffnecked people. Read and mark diligently the circumstances of both places, and ye shall find, that this is the true sense and meaning of them. ALBION. Object. 18 Psal 3●. Now will I come to the holy Psalmist. These are David's words, I am sure: I said, I will confess my sin unto the LORD, and so thou forgavest the wickedness of my sin. Pro hac orabit ad te omnis sanctus, in tempore oportuno. For this shall every Saint make his prayer unto thee, in a time, when thou mayst be found. Again, Psal. 150. doth not he write thus: Laudate Dominum in sanctis eius, Praise god in his saints? Philalethes. Answer. And I say that by bringing in these testimonies or authorities of the psalms, they do most manifestly beewraye their impudent and shameless ignorance. How the place alleged out o the 〈◊〉 p●a● ought ●o be taken For, when David had reasoned of the remission of sins, and had appointed himself an example unto other, and had said: I have confessed my sin unto the lord, and thou hast forgiven the wickedness of my sin: he did add by and by: Many holy and godly men, shallbe provoked by this example of mine to call after the same sort upon god for the pardonne and forgiveness of their sins, in a time when thou mayest be found. Cypr an contra d●metrianum. For Cyprian writing against Demetrianus, did say very godly: Quando isthinc excessum fuerit, nullus iam locus poenitentiae est, nullus satisfactionis effectus. Hic vita aut amittitur aut tenetur. Hic saluti aetern● cultu dei, & fructu fidei providetur. That is to say: After that we be departed hence, there is no place of repentance, no effect of satisfaction. Here the life is either loss, or holden: here by the worshipping of god, & the fruit of faith, everlasting salvation is provided for. Whereby we do learn, that as long as we be in this life, we may through faith in our Saviour jesus Christ, pray unto God for the remission of our sins, and that so long, God may be found, but after that we be once gone, neither repentance nor yet praying unto God for the remission of our sins can profit us nothing. Didymus Object. 19 But here he speaketh of the Saints, that being in heaven, do pray unto God for us, that of his goodness he will forgive us our sins, as he did unto David. I am sure, ye will not call them, that are yet alive, and be subject to all kind of infirmities, Saints. For that pertaineth only to those blessed spirits and souls that be already in glory, with their head our saviour jesus Christ. Philalethes. And in this do also the champions of the romish church declare their wilful blindness. Answer. For, in how many places of the scriptures are the faithful living yet here on the earth called saints: The faithful living here on the earth are Rom 1. Act 9 Paul doth write to the saints that were at Rome. These be also Ananias words in the Acts of apostles: Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy Saints at Jerusalem, and here he hath power of the high priests to bind all those, that call upon thy name. The time would not suffice to rehearse all places of the Scriptures, where the faithful, living yet here in the earth be called Saints. But ye shall hear what Saint Augustine saith concerning this matter. Augu. two. Psal. 86. He writing upon the psalms, doth allege these words of the apostle: And some of you were such, but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified. Si ergo eos sanctificatos dicit, dicat unusquisque fidelium, Sanctus sum. Non est ista superbia elati, sed confessio non ingrati. Si enim dixeris te sanctum esse ex te, superbus ex. Rursus fidelis in Christo, & membrum Christi, si te non dixeris, esse sanctum ingratus es. That is, if he calleth them sacntified, let every one of the faithful say: I am a saint. This is not the pride of him, that is puffed up, but the confession of him, that is not ingrate or unthankful. For, if thou sayest, that thou art a Sayncte of thyself, thou art a proud man. Again, being faithful in CHRIST, The pope will scarcely allow ●his doctrine for he is wonte to canonize his saints an hundred years after they be dead. and a member of christ, if thou sayest, that thou art not a saint, thou art ingrate and unthankful. say unto thy God: I am a Saint, because thou haste sanctified me, because I have received it, not because I had it: because thou hast given it, not because I have deserved it. For, on the other side thou beginnest to do injury unto thy Lord JESV CHRIST. For, if all Christians and faithful, and all they that be baptised in him, have put him on, or are appareled with him as the apostle doth say: As many as are baptised in CHRIST, are appareled with CHRIST. If they be made members of his body, and say, that they are not saints, they do injury unto the head himself, whose membres are not holly. Now see, where thou art, and take dignity of thy head. Let therefore, every Christian say: yea let the whole body of Christ cry out, whensoever it suffereth afflictions, divers temptations, and innumerable slanders: Preserve my soul, for I am a saint. Those words of saint Augustine are so plain, that they need no exposition at al. Eutrapelus. Some there be which to show a difference betwixt the Saints, that are already in glory, with their head our saviour jesus Christ, and the Saints that be yet alive here on the earth, do in the Latin tongue call the one Divos, (these are they that be already in heaven) and the other Sanctos, which are they, that be yet compassed about with the body of sin. Albion. Well, be it so as ye say. But wherefore doth the Psalmist write on this manner: Laudate dominum in sanctis eius, that is to say, Praise God in his Saints? The be●st li●●s of the papists in alleging the scriptures. Philalethes. Who would not laugh at the beastliness of these blind buzzards? for if they will have this saying: Praise the Lord in his saints to be like unto this: Call upon the saints of the Lord: then by as good reason we may say: That the trumpette, the viol, and the harp. etc. ought to be called upon. For, it followeth immediately after: Praise him in the sound of the trumpette, in the viol, and in the harp. But the Catholic verity and truth, doth both read and understand the words of the prophet after this sort. Praise the Lord in his sanctuary, or in his hoynesse, that is: Praise him that dwelleth in heaven. Psal. 134. For in an other place he saith: Lift up your hands unto the sanctuary, and praise the lord. Which is as much as if he should have said: lift up your hands unto heaven, and praise the Lord, and give him thanks for his benefits. Whereunto the addeth with what instruments they were wont to stir up the hearts of the people to sing praises, & to be thankful unto the Lord. But now under Christ, such ceremonies of the old law are clean abolished. Ob e. 20 a●●. 3, Didy. I remember that ones this place of Baruch was alleged for the maintenance of the invocation of the Saints: O Lord god almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, and of their children which have sinned before thee, and have not harkened unto the voice of thee, their God, therefore these plagues hang upon us. Albion. If ye had not prevented me, Answer. I would have alleged the same place. For, it seemeth unto me, to make much for the purpose. Of what manner dead Baruch doth speak Philalethes. Ye must mark brother Albion, that Baruch in his prayer, speaketh not of them that were dead with the bodily death, but of the wicked, which living unto the world were dead unto God, which figurative manner of speaking, is oftentimes used in the scriptures. For, in the gospel our saviour jesus Christ doth say: Math. 8. Suffer the dead to bury their dead. As if he should say: Let the worldlings that be dead to God and good works bury them that be departed out of this life, (for that is an office most meet for them) but do the things that be for the living. The like phrase or manner of speaking doth the holy apostle use, 1. Tim. 5. when he saith: A widow living in deliciousness, though she be alive, yet she is dead: It is also oftentimes seen, that in the third person we be wont to speak of ourselves. Baruch besides, by such kind of words doth set forth the miserable estate of the children of Israel, which were even as dead men here in the world, because of their captivity and thraldom and straicte bondage or slavery that they were in, which was unto them as a grave or pit that the dead be buried in. weigh and consider well the circumstances of the place, and ye shall find it to be so. Didymus. Obiec. 11 2. Mach. 15 And what will ye say to this place of the second book of the Maccabees: where we read that judas Machabeus did see in a dream Onias the priest and Hieremie the prophet praying for the people, whereof he was so sure, that he told his dream to the people to encourage them withal, against the terror of their enemies. PHILALETHES. Answer. This place hath neither commandment, nor yet sufficient example, but is only a vision or dream, whereby it was represented, that the people of the jews should not be forsaken of God. For if so be that it had set forth the Intercession of saints, judas Machabeus would have commended himself unto the prayer of Onias and Hieremie. which thing he doth note but in his great danger and peril, he fleeth unto the true living God only, saying: O Lord, thou that didst send thine angel in the time of Ezechias king of juda, who in the host of Sennacherib slew an hundredth fourscore and five thousand. Send new also thy good angel before us, O Lord of heavens, The prayer of judas Machabaeus. for a fear and dread unto them. And let them be discomfited by the strength of thine arm, which come against thine holy people to blaspheme. Howbeit no man could justly blame me, if I should utterly reject the place that is alleged out of Baruch, and out of the second book of the Maccabees, sith that they be no Canonical books but plain Apocryphes, as in our talk of purgatory it hath been sufficiently proved, Read the 3 dialogue of my hunting of purgatory unto death. and specially in the beginning of the third communication, so that I shall have no need to repeat the thing any more, sith that all our talk touching that matter is set forth in print. Eutrapelus. Me think it were a fond thing, to ground any doctrine upon a dream, It is no wisdom to ●round any doctrine ●pon a dream. & specially upon such a dream as the like is not once mentioned of, in all the whole body of the Canonical scriptures. judas Machabeus did think also in this his dream, that Hieremye did deliver unto him a golden sword, wherewith he should wound the adversaries. As he thenne received a golden sword of Hieremie, so did Onias and Hieremie pray for the people: but he received only the sword in a dream: it followeth then that the prayers of these holy men were also dreamish. Philalet. Add thereto these words of saint Augustine, Augu cont a gauden●● 〈…〉 li. 2. cap 1●. Non debemus quicquid in scriptures etiam dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legimus, consentiendo approbare, sed consyderando discernere, adhibentes iuditium non sanc nostrae authoritatis, sed scripturarum divinarum, That is to say we ought not to approve by consenting, whatsoever we read to have been done by men, though they be praised by the testimony of the scriptures, but with considering to discern it, bringing the judgement not of our own authority, but of the holy scriptures. By these words we do learn that we are not bound to follow, whatsoever we find in the Scriptures to have been done by the men of God, but first we must try by the word of God, whether it be well done or not. Albion. Obie 22 Yet father Origen doth allege this place, for to prove the Invocation of Saints by. These are his words, which ye shall find written in one of his four homilies, which are found by & by after the commentaries of Jerome, which he hath written upon Ecclesiastes: Sed & omnes sancti, Origenes super cant●ca de precibus sanctorum in coelo. qui de hac vita decesserunt, habentes adhuc charitatem erga eos, qui in hoc mundo sunt, si dicant●r curam gerere salutis eorum, & iuvare eos precibus sanis atque interuentu suo apud Deum. Non erit inconueniens. Scriptum nanque est in Machabeorum libris ita: Hic est Hieremias, propheta Dei, qui semper orat pro populo. That is to say: But it shall not be inconueniente, if it be said, that all the Saints, which be departed out of this life, having yet a love and charity towards them that be in the world, be carefulle over their salvation, and help them with their prayers, and intercession unto God. For in the book of the Maccabees it is thus written. This is Hieremie the Prophet of GOD, that prayeth always for the people. These words seem unto me very plain. Philalethes Answer. It is a wonder and marvel that this old ancient father, should go about to confirm and establish the intercession and praying of the saints for us in heaven, which is a doctrine no where set forth unto us in all the Canonical Scriptures, by the testimony and authority of an apocryphical book. For Origene himself, if that be true, that Eusebius writeth of him, doth numbered no more than xxii canonical books, secluding the books of the Maccabees. Moreover Jerome in his preface unto Damasus, which he did set before the ii treatises or homilies of Origene upon the Canticles, doth testify that Origene did write these ii treatises upon the canticles, which Jerome himself did turn or translate into latin, and ten books, which he saith he did not translate because it was a work that required much leisure, time, labour, and cost. Now those, that we have at this present under the name and title of Origene, are not called books but homilies, where as in the mean while he wrote none but those ii which Hierom did translate. But put the case, that they be Origenes, shall we set more by the authority of man, than by the authority of the Canonical scriptures? Lu. 7. Math. 15. Obie. 2●, Albion It is written in Luke, that the Centurion did send the elders of the people unto Christ, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant? And why? because that he thought not himself worthy to come unto him. Did not the the Apostles likewise make earnest suit unto Christ, for the woman of Chanance? why should we not likewise thinking ourselves unworthy by reason our sins, to come unto God, pray unto the dead Saints that be already in heaven with their head, our saviour jesus Christ, to make intercession for us? Philalethes. Answer. whiles we live in this world we are bound to pray one for another We have already declared, that whiles we yet live in this world, we may pray one for an other: yea, we are bound by god's word so for to do. But that we should do the like, after we be one's deceased or departed out of this life, and have fulfilled our course: we have not one only jot in all the whole body of the scriptures that testifieth any such thing unto us, Albion. Obie. 14 Revel. 5 Ye shall not need to make any repetition of that, which hath been said already. For I do well bear in mind the whole matter. Therefore I will come to the Apocalypse or revelation of john There, we have these words: And when he had taken the book, the four beasts, and the four and twenty elders, fell down before the lamb, having every one haps, and golden viols full of odours, which are the prayers of the Saints. And in an other place of the same book he saith. reave 8. And an other angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer, and many odours were given unto him, that he should offer of the prayers of the Saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne. These places do seem unto me to prove manifestly the invocation of the dead Saints. Phila. Answer. Two ●yndes of prayers. Ye must understand, that there be ii kinds of prayers, the one is invocation or petition, and the other is, giving of thanks, laud and praise. This petition if need were might be proved by the iiii. chapter of the epistle to the Philippians we call that invocation, when we desire some good thing to be given unto us, or some evil to be taken away from us. giving of thanks doth contain the praising and lauding or magnifying of the name of god for his exceeding great benefits, which we receive daily and hourly at his hands. It is manifest by that which doth immediately follow, that the Apostle doth speak of this last, and not of the first. These be the words. And they sung a new song, Revela 5. saying: Thou act worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof because thou wast killed, & haste redeemed us to God, by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and haste made us unto our God kings and priests, & we shall reign on the earth. Therefore, what doth this make for the intercession of the blessed spirits or souls, that the saints do sing praises unto god in heaven? In the other place, none other thing is meant, Revela. 8 but that the angel did join his laudes and praises which he gave unto God with the hymns and songs of the elders. Saint Augustine, August. expounding this place writeth thus: Alius angelus, ipse est jesus Christus habens thuribulum aureum, quod est corpus sanctum. Ipse enim dominus, factus est thuribulum, ex quo deus odorem suanitatis accepit & propitius factus est mundo, quia obtulit seipsum modorem suavitatis. Et accepit angelus thuribulun & implevit illud ex igne altatis. Accepit jesus corpus, id est ecclesiam, & perficiendo patris voluntatem, illam igne spiritus implevit sancti, That is to say: The other angel is jesus christ, having a golden censer, which is an holy body. For the LORD himself was made a censer, out of the which (GOD received a sweet odour, and was made merciful unto the world: For, he offered himself a sacrifice of sweet smell. And the angel did take the censer, and did fill it with the fire of the aultare. JESUS took a body, that is to say the church, and did fill it, with the fire of the holy Ghost. DYDIMVS. Obie. 25 R●ff● l●● Eccle. historiae. I perceive brother Albion, that ye must seek for help some other where, than in the scriptures of the old and new testament, sith that your invocation of the dead saints is already driven out of the Apocalypse or revelation of john. Albi. I have yet some what in store. These words we do read of Theodosius the emperor, in the eleventh book of the ecclesiastical history, which one Ruffinus did write: Ciren nibat cum sacerdotibus & pop●lo omnia orationum loca, ante martyrum & apostolorum thecis ●acebat cilitio prostratus, & auxilia sibi, fida sanctorum intercessione poscebat, That is, he did with the priests & the people go about all the places of prayers, and did lie prostrate in suckeclothe before the shrines of the martyrs and Apostles, and did require help for himself, by the faithful intercession of the Saints. What will ye say now to this? No man can deny, but that this is a most ancient history. Answer. Antiquated without truth proveth nothing. Eutrapelus. I have many times heard our brother Philalethes say, that antiquity without a truth, or without a good foundation or ground in gods book, proveth nothing. Again, when certain arguments of Hierom were discussed, it was by sufficient testimonies and authority of the scriptures proved, that the examples of such kings and bishops, which are brought forth without any authority of the scriptures, do in such weighty matters prove nothing. Ye do not read in all the book of God, that any of the godly and faithful kings did ever lie prostrate before the shrines of the righteous, and did crave for help by the faithful intercession of the dead. For, they did all cry out, My help is from the Lord, which made both heaven and the earth. The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil, the Lord shall keep thy soul. The Lord shall keep thy going out, and thy going in, from hensefoorth world without end. The exposition of Ruffinus wor●●●. Philalethes. Besides Ruffinus words do appear to be such, that they ought rather to be understanded of the intercession of the saints that were in the earth For, it seemeth that the prince went about all the oratory's or praying places where the congregation of the saints was assembled, and that he did desire the faithful to pray most earnestly unto god, that he would vouchsafe to give him the victory, and to preserve his empire to the commodity profit and utility of many men. The like in a manner have we in the said Ruffinus. li. 10. ca 8 where we have these words: In the mean while Constantinus trusting in godliness, did even in their own country subdue the Sarmatians the Goths, & other Barbarous countries and nations, those excepted, which either by friendship, or by yielding of themselves did prevent peace. And the more devoutly and humbly he did submit himself unto god, the more God did subdue all things under him. He did also send letters to Antony the first inhabitant of the wilderness, as unto one of the prophets, desiring him that he would pray unto the lord for him and for his children. So he did not only study to be made commendable unto god by his own merits and by the devotion of his mother, but also by the intercession of the Saints. Mark how he did here take the intercession of the saints: neither do I see any cause why we may not expound that place touching Theodosius, What the vision of Theodosius doth signify of the intercession of the saints that were alive here on the earth. And where as they say that the Apostles john and Philip did appear unto Theodosius the emperor, what shall they gather by it: But that he was by such a vision certified of the victory, as judas Machabaeus was before by the appearing of Onias and Hieremy. And therefore as judas Machabaeus did not call upon Onias and Hieremie, when he should join in battle with his enemies, but upon the mighty Lord of hosts: In like manner Theodosius, when he saw his soldiers turn their backs, he prayed not unto the apostles, but unto god, saying: O almighty god, The prayer of Theodosius. thou knowest, that for to revenge the just quarrel of thy son jesus Christ I have taken in hand these wars, if it be otherwise, pour thy vengeance upon me. But if trusting in thee, and upon a just cause I am come hither, reach forth thy right hand unto thine, lest the gentiles do say: where is now their god? Whereunto the same doth well agree, which Saint Augustine in his fift book of the city of god and .26. chapter doth write of this most holy prince, how that he did put his whole confidence and trust in God as in his most strong shield and bucklar, and strong bulwark against his enemies. Didymus. Obie 26 The common people is wont to say still that it was a merry world, when the holy virgin Mary and all the blessed saints in heaven were prayed unto, and worshipped, whereupon they do gather, God was well pleased withal, else God would not have sent unto them such felicity. But now sens pilgrimages & praying unto saints was put down, the world hath been in all kind of misery. Philalethes. Answer. Heir. 44 The like were they wont to lay to Hieremies' charge, using these stout words against him: The word that thou haste spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not here it of thee: but we will do whatsoever thing goeth out of our own mouth, as to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, both we and our fathers, our kings and our princes in the cities of juda, and in the streets of Jerusalem, for, then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and self none ill: but since we lest of, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have had scarcenesss of all things, and have been consumed by the sword and famine. Do not I pray you the worshippers of dead Saints make the like complaints, praising the felicity of the old world (as they do term it) when all kind of idolatry did reign? The common complaint of idolaters. But this is the common complaint of idolaters. For both Demetrianus and the common sort of the heathen, did lay to the christians charge, that it was long of them that such cruel wars did arise among them, that their cattles died of the moreyn, that they were plagued with pestilence and famine, and that they had unseasonable weathers, yea that all manner of plagues that the world was plagued withal, ought to be impuded unto them. Cypr cont●● demetrianum. But Cyprian doth so answer to all these vain objections, that his answer may serve us for to stop the mouths of the vain Papists, which now do make so great a brag of the felicity of their idolatrous tyme. But leaving men's authorities, I will show, how the lord himself doth answer or rather handle this objection of the adversaries in his prophet Osee. For, Osee. 1. he saith, your mother hath played the harlot: for she said: I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread, and my water, my will, and my star, mine oil, and my drink. And she did not know, that I gave her corn, and wine and oil and multiplied her silver and gold, which they bestowed upon Baal. Therefore, will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, & my wine in the sea son thereof, and will recover my will, and my flax lent, to cover her shame with all, and I will cause all her mirth to cease: And I will also destroy her wines, God will not have us to attribute our felicit● unto creatures 1. Tim 6. and her fig trees, whereof she said, these are my rewards, that my lovers have given me. Hereby do we learn how much God is disposed, if we do attribute unto false gods or unto creatures, the felicity, wealth, and prosperity of the world: For as god alone doth give us all things abundantly to enjoy them, so will he be acknowledged to be the only giver of good things. He calleth the same fornication, which they do call devotion. God hath joined our souls unto him with the bond of matrimony, to the end that we should depend of him only, as the spouse or wife ought to depend of her husband. Therefore, spiritual fornication. we do commit fornication, when we do attribute the gifts, which have been given us of our husband, unto I cannot tell what lovers, I mean, unto Idols or dead creatures. It is god, that giveth unto us all things necessary, meat, drink and cloth, and moderate pleasures, not that we should bestow them upon Idols, but that we should enjoy and have the fruition of them, & so give thanks unto the lord and giver of them. But the idolaters say these are my rewards, which my lovers do give unto me. The idolaters of our tyme. The idolaters of our time, say, these benefits have we received of the liberality of god, but through the merits of the saints. Yea, many forgetting the lord all together do attribute all their felicity unto the dead saints Unto both the lord doth say, I will return and take away my corn etc. He doth threaten them with the barrenness of the ground & with famine, it is so far of, that they should prove any thing by their objection. Therefore we ought rather to believe the prophet speaking of the true felicity on this manner. Blessed is the man that feareth the lord, he shall have great pleasure in his commandments, wealth and richesse shallbe in his house, and his righteousness remaineth for ever. The eyes of all things do look up, and trust in thee, thou givest them meat in due season, thou dost open thy hand and fillest with thy blessing every living thing. The lord is near unto them that call upon him, that call upon him in truth. He shall do the will of them that fear him, and he shall hear their cry and save them: The lord doth preserve them that love him, The fountains of true felicity. and shall destroy all the ungodly. These are the fountains of true felicity, of the which if any man doth drink he will attribute all his whole felicity unto god and not unto creatures. Albi. Now, I have hitherto been sufficiently instructed that the dead Saints ought not to be prayed unto and that we ought not to use them as mediators, but that we ought to content ourselves with the mediation of Christ, who by the word of god, is appointed to be the only mediator betwixt god and men. Whether th● dead ●mi●●ught to be wor hipped. But will ye say that they ought not to be worshipped. My gentle men, have told me, that they ought in any wise to be worshipped. Else great injury should be done unto the friends of god. Philalethes. This is the greatest honour, that we can give unto the true and faithful servants of god, if we do give all honour, praise and laud unto him, whom they did faithfully preach, whose doctrine they did earnestly publish, and seal with their blood. We may well, as other holy and godly men have done afore us, assign and allow three kinds or sorts of honouring of the Saints. Three sorts of honouring of the saints. The first, is giving of thanks. For, we ought to give god thanks, that he did vouchsafe to show examples of his mercy, and that he did signify by them that he will save men, and that therefore he did give sundry gifts unto his church, and specially teachers. Math. 25. These exceeding great gifts ought to be amplified, and the holy men of God also to be praised, that they did use faithfully the gifts of God, as we see that our saviour jesus Christ did praise those, that had faithfully employed and bestowed the talentes that were lente them. Their doctrine whereby they did commend unto us the worshipping and invocation of one God only, aught to be urged and with diligent earnestness to be set forth. We ought with all thankfulness to judge well of such worthy vessels of God, to commend them, and to defend their good name and estimation against the ungodly. The second is the instruction of our faith, two. as when we see that the denial of Peter was forgiven him, and the adultery and murder that David committed, was also pardonned him, and the blasphemy, persecutions, and slaughter of the saints was not imputed unto Paul, and the covetousness, frauds and usury of Matthew put out of remembrance: we are wonderfully erected and confirmed, and do more & more believe that the grace of God doth far pass all sins. iii. Thereof doth spring the third kind of honouring, which is the imitation or following of the Saints, first of their faith, and afterwards of all their other virtues, which every man ought, according to his vocation and calling, for to follow. Eutrapelus. Ye put me now in remembrance of a thing, which I have red in a book of Erasmus which is called Enchiridion. Enchiridiō●rasmi. Thou dost (sayeth he) honour the Saints, thou art glad to touch their relics: but thou dost contemn the best thing, that they have left that is, the example of pure and clean life. The preposterous honouring of the dead. There is no worshipping more acceptable unto mary, than if thou dost follow her humility and lowliness. There is no religion more proper and acceptable unto the saints, than if thou dost labour to express their virtue. Wilt thou please both Poter & Paul? follow the faith of the one and the charity of the other, The true honouring of the Saints. and thou shalt do more then if thou shouldest run ten times to Rome. PHILALETH. We have manifest texts of the scriptures whereby we are able to prove the no godly honour ought to be given unto the saints Act. 10. For Cornelius falling at Peter's feet, would have honoured him, not as a God, but as he had learned of the angel as a minister of God. But Peter did take him up, and said: Arise, for I myself am a man. And that which Peter did rebuke in Cornelius, the same did the angel afterwards reprove in john the Evangelist. Apo. 22. This great Apostle being already well stricken in years knew right well that no godly honour ought to be given unto creatures, but unto god only, yet would he have worshipped the angel, for the excellency of his ministery, but he was put back of the angel. furthermore when they of Lystra did bring forth crowns and sacrifices, Act. 14. that is, extern and visible gifts or presents, which they were appointed, to have offered unto Paul and Barnabas. As soon as the apostles Barnabas and Paul saw it, they rend their clothes as at a manifest blasphemy, and ran among the people, crying, and saying: O men, The words of the Apostle to the people of Lystra. why do ye these things? We are even men, subject to the like passions that ye be. etc. If they did this, when they were yet compassed about with the sinful body of the flesh: is it to be thought that being now in heaven, where they have fruition of God's glory, they would have such godly honour to be given unto them? When they were yet alive and subject to all manner of infirmities that we be subject unto, they could in no wise abide, that GOD should be rob of his glory: And now that they be delivered from all manner of infirmities, and are already in glory with their head our saviour jesus Christ, would they commit such traitorous sacrilege? These things being well considered, it shall be easy to see, that all which they do prattle of their Lattia, Dulia, The m●les which 〈…〉 ●efore ●h● eyes of the ●m●le and ignorant. and Hyperdulia, are nothing else but stinking mists. In the which the wayfaring men are seduced and deceived, and fall into the hands of murderers and robbers, which as they do sacrilegeously rob GOD of his glory, so they do with their poisoned doctrine of this idolatrous worshipping of the saints, murder the souls of all them that being blinded with their misty sophistications, do fall in to their hands. Albion. Obie 27. & 28. john 12 Math. 25. What will ye then say to these arguments: whom God doth honour, them ought men for to honour; but god doth honour the Saints, therefore, the saints ought to be honoured of men. Again: what soever (sayeth Christ) ye do to one of these little ones, ye do it unto me, what honour soever then we do give unto the Saints, God will impute it to be done unto him. Philalethes. Answer. I cannot but marvel at the gross blindness of them. For in the same place that they do allege out of john, this word to honour. is taken for to give eternal life and immortality. How god doth 〈◊〉 his saints. Therefore, if ye should thus make up your argument: Whom god doth honour, them ought men also to honour But god honoureth his saints, that is, he doth crown them with immortal glory and life everlasting. Ergo, the saints must be honoured of men, that is, they must receive of men immortality, eternal glory and everlasting life: Who would not deride and laugh to scorn this manner of reasoning? Again: if by this word, to honour, they will understand, The absurdity of the papists arguments. to bough the knee, and to make supplication, they shall make a very foolish and fond argument: except they show first, that GOD did bough his knee, and did make supplication unto the Saints. But if by the honour they do understand, the praise of their virtues, and the imitation or following of their godly life, and sincere faith, the matter goeth well: In the mean while, GOD honourethe the Saints after his manner and fashion, giving them eternal glory, and everlasting life, and we honour them after ours, by praising the gifts of God in them, and by following their virtues, and steadfast faith. After the same manner do they depravate the words of our saviour jesus christ, where he sayeth: Math. 25. What soever ye do to one of these little ones ye do it unto me. For, there our saviour doth speak of the beneficence & liberality, & of the offices & duties of life, that the saints do exercise one toward an other, whiles they be yet in this present life, and these corrupters of the scriptures, do wrest it, for to make it to serve for their idolatrous worshipping of the dead Saints. Well ●a●d● Dydi●●●. Didymus. Me thinketh, that it is against all reason, that the blessed virgin Mary the mother of our saviour jesus Christ, should not be worshipped, sith that she is the queen of heaven Eutrape. Belike, neighbour Didymus, The●●●● of the 〈◊〉 of ●●da. ye will bring in again, the old error of the idolatrous women of juda, which worshipped the moon, and making of the good creature of God, an idol, did call it the queen of heaven: After the same manner as Epiphanius doth testify, 〈…〉. certain women in Arabia did worship the virgin Mary, making unto her fine cakes, and calling her the queen of heaven: which thing as that same most ancient writer doth declare was done by the subtle and crafty procurement of Satan the devil, that so the idolatry that was committed about the moon, might be translated & turned upon that most holy vessel of god the mother of our saviour jesus Christ, and that so for the hatred that he bore unto Christ, and unto his membres, he might dishonour her, and make her an abominable idol, and a stumbling block unto all christendom, where as God hath appointed her for to be unto us (next unto her son jesus Christ) a most perfect example of all godliness and virtue, and of a most pure and sincere faith in his promises touching his Messiah and anointed, that should for the salvation of the world, be borne of her. This am I sure of, that no where in all the scriptures, The virgin Mary is no where in all the scriptures called the queen of heaven. the virgin Marie is called the queen of heaven. Therefore, I do marvel at the ungodly fondness of them that will have her to be so called, making most sacrilegeous and blasphemous hymns unto her, which they do violently intrude or thrust into the church with fire and sword. Philalethes. If ye will not content yourself with that, which hath been said already, ye shall hear Epiphanius very words: In his third book ●ontra Antidicomarianitas, & cultores virginis Mariae, writeth on this manner: He (speaking of Christ) as being the potter himself, and having the power of the thing, did form and fashion himself of the virgin Mary, as of the earth who came down from heaven, and being both God and the word, did put on flesh of the virgin mary, but not that the virgin should be worshipped, or that he would make her a God, or that we should offer in her name. For, he neither did suffer her to give or minister baptism, nor to bless the apostles, neither did he command her to bear rule in the earth, but will have us to know, that he alone is the sanctification, and that she is made worthy of the kingdom of heaven. whence doth this rolling serpence or dragon come unto us? Whence are these lewd, and wicked counsels renewed? Let mary be in honour, let the Father, the son, and the holy ghost be worshipped. let no man worship mary. And by and by after: Let no man eat of the error which is for the holy mary. Although it be a goodly free, yet it is not for meat to be eaten of: Although, Marry he most beautiful, holy, and honourable, yet she is not appointed to be worshipped. Let therefore the error of the deceived cease. For, neither is mary a God, neither hath she her body from heaven, but of the conception of man and woman, howbeit, disposed according to the promise as the conception and birth of Isaac was. And let no man offer in her name. For, he that doth it, doth cast away his soul. Again: let no man rail against her nor blaspheme the holy virgin, god forfend. For, she was not coupled unto man, neither after the birth, nor before the birth of the Saviour. And in the same book, contra Colyridianos, Coly●●● 〈◊〉 the● 〈◊〉 offe●e 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 Mar. ● Aug●●● ra●●●●●e 〈◊〉 ●mo. these are also his words: In deed the virgin was a virgin and honourable, but not given unto us for to be worshipped, but rather she doth worship him, that took his substance of her, that is to say, of her flesh. Augustin in his book De vera religione, Let not the worshipping of dead men, be a religion unto us: for, if they have lived godly, they be not so taken, as though they do seek for such honours, but they will have him to be worshipped of us, by whose illumination they rejoice, that we should be partakers of their merit: By their merit he doth understand the crown of immortality, which they do obtain through faith in the merits of Christ) Therefore they must be honoured through imitation and following, and not be worshipped through religion. Again in the same book: we ought, sayeth he, to believe, that the most bountiful angels, and the most excellent ministers of god, will have us to worship one god with them, by whose contemplation they are blessed. Neither do we build temples unto them: For, they will not so behonoured of us, because that they know, that when we are godly, we are the temples of the most high god. ●. Cor. 6. 2 Cori. 6. Therefore, it is well and rightly written, that man was forbidden of the angel to worship him but one god, under whom he was his fellow servant. In the third book against the ii epistles of the Pelagians unto Bonifacius, he writeth also on this manner: All the saints that have been either from the old Abel unto john Baptist, or from the apostles unto this time, and afterwards unto th'end of the world, are to be praised in God and not in themselves: For, this is the voice of them that were afore. My soul shallbe praised in the Lord. And this is the voice of the latter: through the grace of God I am that I am. And this is the voice both of the first and of the last: He that glorieth, Cyrillus. let him glory in the Lord. Cyrillus in his sixth book contra lulianum, hath plainly these words: we neither say, that the holy martyrs are gods, neither are we wont to worship them: but rather we do honour them with laudes and praises, because that they did stoutly fight for the truth, that they might keep the sincerity of faith. Hereby do we learn, that in the primitive church the honour that was given unto martyrs, was to praise, commend, and set forth their constancy and steadfastness, their strong faith and patience in adversity and persecution, that so God who had for the profit of his church, endued them with such excellent virtues might be glorified, and the rest exhorted, following their example, to fight manfully in the quarrel of the truth, and courageously to shed their blood for the sealing up of the same. Chrysost. Likewise Chrysostom in the xlv. homily upon Matthew, writing against them their that would seem to honour the martyrs with their substance, by making unto them gorgeous tombs, & by building up in the honour of them costly oratory's or house's of prayers, doth say these words: Neither do the martyrs rejoice, when they are honoured, with the same money, for the which the poor do weep. What is that virtue of righteousness, to reward the dead, and to spoil the living? The same author doth plainly teach in an other place, that the true honour of the Saints, is to follow their faith and other heavenly virtues. But what need we the authority of men, Math. 4. l. 11.4. sith that we have so plain scriptures? Thou shalt worship the lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve, saith our saviour jesus Christ, whereupon I may make this argument: Who soever is neither our Lord, nor our God, to him aught we in no wise to give godly honour, nor yet to worship him: But neither the angels nor the dead Saints are our Lords and gods, but are ministers of our Lord god, and under him our fellow servants: To them therefore ought we in no wise to give godly honour, nor yet to worship them. Neither do we honour and worship Christ, Christ is ●ot worshipped be cause he is ●an, but be cause he is ●●ue and natural ●nd Obie. 29 because that he is holy and righteous: or because that he is well-beloved of god but because that he is true and natural God, of one substance with the father & the holy ghost. Albion. They say that they do honour and worship god as well as ye do: and that they do not honour and worship the Saints or angels as gods, but as the trends of god. Again, they do not worship the gods of the gentiles which were either devils or wicked men. Philalethes. Answer. This their answer is not worth a ryshe. For, Christ doth not say: Thou shalt not worship unclean spirits or wicked men: But thou shalt honour the lord thy god and him only shalt thou worship. Eutrapelus. I do now remember a thing, which I have read in saint Augustine, where he doth dispute, why the Romans, worthy history. sith that they did worship the gods of all nations, could never abide to worship the LORD God of Israel. And he doth allege the reason, which Socrates doth bring in also, that in religion it is required that every God be worshipped according to his own will, Socrates' saying touching the worshipping of god and not according to the will and pleasure of the worshippers. But false gods as filthy fornicators do require no such thing of their worshippers, that they should be worshipped alone, Sith then that the true living god, the god of Israel will be worshipped alone, it did come to pass that the Romans would in no wise receive and allow his religion. For, they could not abide, that for one only gods sake, all the other gods should be rejected and put down. Albion. Obie. 30 I will go no farther in this matter. For, my mind, thanks be to god, is well satisfied in it. But my gentle men, Of images. did say that ye do wonderfully hinder the devotion of the people, Why the papists will ●aue images in their church's. in this that ye will have neither the image of Christ, nor of his mother the virgin mary, nor of the holy saints to stand in the churches nor in the places of prayer. For, first and foremost, they be the books of the lay people, where by the simple and ignorant do learn many goodly things, which without them, they could not learn. when ye take them away, then (say my gentle men) ye take away the books of the lay people, and so cause them still to remain in blindness and ignorance. secondly, they are goodly means to stir up the hearts of the people to devotion. And ye know that the more means we have to stir up our hearts & minds to devotion, the better it is. And therefore to put down the image of Christ, the image of the virgin Mary, & to put down the images of the saints is to less or rather to put down the means that our forefathers have appointed and ordained for to stir up the hearts and minds of the simple and ignorant people unto devotion. Phila. I willbe the shorter in this matter, because that a godly learned man and faithful brother of ours, hath set forth three godly and learned homilies, where in this argument to so learnedly handled, and all things pertaining unto it, so profoundly discussed, that it willbe in a manner thought to be but labour lost, to meddle any more in this matter. Albion I pray you brother Philalethes, to tell me, who it is, that hath done it. Philale. Hark in your ear. Albion. I know him very well. We have to sew of such men in this realm. The lord god shall reward him, for this his good travail & labour. But in the mean while, let us hear, what ye are able to say to this, that they do bring for the maintenance of their images. PHILALETHES. Answer. All that ye have alleged do stand in two points. First that the images are the books of the lay people: secondly that they are means for to stir up the minds of the simple and ignorant to devotion. The same touching images did Damascenus teach in his four damascene gardiner's chief refuge. book de orthodoxa fide, and .17. chapter, and also Gregory the great, in his Register or book of epistles. 10. part, and fourth epistle, but how well and agreeably to the Scriptures, let all the godly judge. first these are the words of the holy prophet Abakuk: what profitteth the image? ●ba. 2. For the maker thereof hath made it an image, and a teacher of lies. Whereby it followeth, that images are the books of lies, and that they come of him, who is a liar from the beginning, and the father of lies. Now well then, are the simple and ignorant, for whom our saviour JESUS CHRIST, did vouchsafe to shed his dear heart blood, The simple and ignorant are well provided for under the pope. Heir 10. provided for, when such books are delivered unto them, in stead of the lively preaching of gods word? It is not, for nought that Hieremye doth cry out. They altogether dote, and are foolish, for the stock is a doctrnne of vanity. Dydimus. What meaneth he by that? PHILALETH. Because the people thought, that to have images was a mean to serve GOD, and to bring them to the knowledge of him, he showeth that nothing more displeaseth God, nor bringeth man into greater errors, and ignorance of GOD, therefore he calleth them the doctrine of vanity, and the work of errors, as Abakuk (as ye heard afore) calleth them, the teachers of lies. Who in the same Chapter, thundereth out against the wicked opinion of them that call them the books of the lay people, on this manner: Woe unto him, that sayeth unto the wood, awake: and unto the dam stone: rise up. Should the same teach? Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath in it. But the lord is in his holy temple. As if he should say: There is no breath, no life nor moving in the images. How should they teach then? Therefore it is a mere vanity and fondness, to set forth images unto the people, for their teachers & school masters: sith that the living god, who is the true teacher, is in the midst of his temple, that is in the heart of the faithful, teaching those things that are both profitable, & everlasting. Whereunto may be added this saying of Saint Paul: 2. Cor. 6. What agreement hath the temple of god with images? but ye are the temple of the living god: who liveth & worketh in you. More credit ought to be given to these testimonies of the prophets and of the apostles, than to the vain gloss of all Gregory's and Damascenes in the world. Albion. Yet ye can not deny but that they be means to stir up the hearts of the simple and ignorant people unto devotion. Philalethes. This is but a vain saying. For, the hearts of the faithful, are only stirred up to godliness, by the holy spirit of god, which as he worketh inwardly in the heart, having these extern and outward means, that is to say, the preaching of god's word, Images are means to stir up the hearts of men not to devotion but to idolatrous superstition. and the right ministration of the Sacraments: so did he never count images among his means but rather in all places doth straightly forbid them, with terrible and dreadful threatenings against them, that of a self will, will still (for the causes by you rehearsed) have and maintain them to the great hindrance of true godliness, and to the advancement, not of devotion, but of devilish and idolatrous superstition. Eutrape. All men, that have any spark of sound reason and judgement in their heads, must needs marvel at the beastliness of these men: for I would fain know of them, when our saviour jesus Christ did send his Apostles forth into the world, whether did he send them to be painters, carvers, and makers of images, and not rather to preach the gospel unto every reasonable creature. Why the apostles were sent into the world. We do read no where that they did carry about images, or that they did use any other outward signs than the right and due ministration of the Sacraments, according to the institution and ordaynance of their master and saviour jesus Christ. Saint Paul in the three chapter of the epistle to the Galathians, doth with an exclamation speak thus unto them: O foolish Galatians who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? before whose eyes jesus Christ was afore, painted out, and crucified among you? that is, To whom Christ, was so lively preached, as if his lively image were set before your eyes, or as if he had been crucified among you? I am sure, that Paul did all these things with the pencil of his tongue, and with the lively preaching of the gospel. But these good fellows because they will not be troubled with to much preaching, Th●● preachers of 〈◊〉 pope do appoint meet vicar's under them. nor break their brains about the study of the scriptures nor yet take to much pain in teaching of the people, in exhorting and comforting the faithful congregation, that so they might live at ease, and in continual idleness, they have appointed unto us meet vicars, for to supply their rooms, and to preach unto the people for them, that is, dumb images, dumb stocks and stones, which have mouths and speske not, which have eyes and see not which have ears, and hear not. etc. And truly we are worthy of such preachers. For, we can not abide the lively voice of the faithful ministers of God when they do sharply rebuke our sins when they do lively disclose and bring to light our hypocrisy and dissimulation, The righteous judgement of God. or when they do ernestyle exhort us to repentance and amendment of life. And therefore by the righteous judgement of God such preachers are appointed unto us, Fond objections of the papists as will suffer us to run headlong into everlasting perdition both of body and soul. Dydimus. I have heard some of them say, that the holy evangelist Saint Luke did paint first the image of the virgin Mary, and did set it forth with lively colours. And also that Nichodemus, who came unto our saviour jesus Christ by night, had the image of Christ being crucified, whereof father Athanasius maketh mention, describing the miracle that was wrought about it in Berythus which is a famous city of Phenicia. Do we not read that Abagarus the king of Edessenes' did send our saviour jesus Christ a painter, for to bring his image unto him? And when he could not do it, because of the exceeding great brightness of his face, Christ himself took his cloth, that he would have painted him on, and did wipe his face with it, and so gave him in the cloth a lively image or resemblance of his face, sending it to Aba●arus, who was desirous of it. The like say they, did happen unto the Veronike, when she did retch her fine clout unto our saviour jesus Christ to dry his face with all that did run full of sweat. Answer to these fond● objections. Saint Luke physician and not a painter. Eutrape. By my brother Philalethes leave, I think, I am able to answer to all these objections. First and foremost, touching the holy evangelist saint Luke, we read no where that ever he was a painter: we read in deed that he was a physician by his science, Why Luke ●s called a 〈◊〉 painter of ●ome. and that afterwards he was of god called to be a physician of the souls as he had been afore the physician of the body. But these beasts do not make, that he is called a painter because of the plainness of his style, and also because that of all to her evangelists, he did set fourth most lively, the strong faith, humility and lowliness, and all oher heavily virtues of the blessed virgin Mary, whereof it did come to pass, that some did affirm, that Luke painted out the virgin Mary. And as for the cross and crucifix of Berythus, whereof Nychodemus is a witness, and Athanasius the writer, we do by good right reject the whole history as most lying and fabulous, and which is most falsely fathered upon the the holy father Athanasius which thing any man, that is of any sound judgement may easily smell out. And verily I marvel, that they be nothing ashamed to ascribe these vain trifles, which are without wit and learning unto such godly ancient fathers. The vanity ●f the enemies in a●●gi●g they c●re not what. The like may we say of the history of Abagarus, and of the Veronike, for if any such thing had been done and wrought, the holy evangelists would not have passed it over, sith that they did most diligently set forth things of smaller importance. They did describe the messages of private persons unto christ, and should they have holden their peace of the Ambassades of kings? They did diligently write of the hem of Christ's garment, and of the touching of it, and what miracle was then wrought, Math. ●. Mar. ●. Lu. 8. by the virtue that proceeded from christ: but not one word did they speak of the napkin nor of this marvelous image of Christ's face. Therefore, such vain & fond histories, in these high points of our religion, aught in no wise to take place. Dydimus. Sith that our brother Philalethes, and our brother Albion, do give us leave, I will utter forth all that I have heard. I was not long since, in a place, where we fell into disputation concerning images, & when I did allege the law of god which did expressly forbid images, which is: Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven image, Exod. 20 nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath or in the water under the earth, thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them. Again: Take heed to yourselves. For, ye saw no image in the day, Deut. 4. that the lord spoke unto you, in Horeb, out of the mids of the fire: that you corrupt not your selves, or make you a graven image, or representation of any figure: Whether it be the likeness of male, and female. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, or the likeness of any feathered foul, that flieth in the air. Or the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the earth, or the likeness of any fish, that is in the waters beneath the earth. etc. Answer was made me, Obiec. 29 that god did also command to make Cherubin, oxen, lions, lilies, roses and other like, as we see to have been done in the tabernacle of Moses, and in the temple of Solomon. And that Moses also did set up the brazen Serpent, and josuah a stone unto the Lord. Whereby they do gather, Num. 21. that the law doth not forbid all manner of images, and that therefore their images are lawful. Obiec. 31 Again: Although it was not lawful in the old time for to express god with an image, because that he was not yet seen in an human form or shape, yet sith being incarnated, he was made like unto men in all things, sin only excepted, it is lawful for to have an image of him. These did seem unto me very hard objections, therefore, I would fain be better instructed by you that I may be the more able to answer them an other tyme. Eutrape. Answer. to the 31. objection We grant, that the law doth not forbid all manner of signs. And we do not chiefly speak against those, that stand up, for to be worshipped, or that are kept in places, where there is any peril of idolatry. As for the brazen Serpent, besides that it was a figure of our saviour jesus Christ as he himself doth testify, The brsen serpent john. 3. saying: As Moses exalted the serpent in the wilderness, so the son of man must be exalted, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life: there was an express commandment touching it But no such thing can they allege for their images. Again, at the beginning, whiles Moses and certain godly judges did live, no man did worship the brazen Serpent, no man did offer incense unto it: but at length by process of time, it did grow in to an wonderful superstition. Which thing being perceived by that most holy king Ezechias, 1. Kin ●8. he did not send prophets, for to admonish and warn people that the brazen serpent was not set up of Moses for to be worshipped, but for to be a memorial or remembrance and that therefore it ought not to be worshipped, howbeit it ought to be kept still, and the abuse to be taken away, but did cause it to be put down, to be beaten in to powder and to be cast into a river. He did not pass for the long observance and that it had continued about seven hundred years or more, and that there had been many holy and godly kings afore him, which did wink at the matter. And yet we read that he was greatly praised for this act. Would god all princes of his 〈◊〉 ●ome 〈◊〉 for 〈…〉 ●●chias. Let all princes in Christendom do the like unto these images that idolatry hath been committed unto, although at the beginning they were not set up for to be worshipped, but for to be monuments or remembrances. Now 〈◊〉 ●on did not therefore bring into the temple, oxen, lions, The 〈…〉. likenesses of birds with such other things, that by th●i● he might represent GOD or admonish the people of holy things, or that ●●y should be books unto the ●●mple and ignorant, but that therewith he might adorn and beautify the vessels of the temple. And therefore they were made for a trimming and decking, and not for to be worshipped. DYDIMVS. And may we not do the like for to trim and deck our churches with all? EUTRAPF. If ye had said for to bring in gains and lucre, than had ye told the truth. The temples of the christians do require an other manner of decking or trimming. Be it so, that Cherubin, which are likenesses of angels were set about the mercy seat, what doth that make for their idolatry, or what doth that prove that images do teach. For, neither do we read that any godly honour was done unto them, nor the ark set forth abroad unto the people, but kept secretly in the holiest place. For it was not lawful for to behold it with profane eyes, as we may see in the iiii. chapter of the Numbers and second Paralypomenon, and fifth chapter. Cherobin why they were made Moreover the Cherubin were nothing else but signs of the presence of GOD and a certain peculiar institution and ordinance of God But no man will say, that the peculiar ordinances of God are prejudicial to his universal laws. Elias did set up an altar in Carmelus against the written law of god, and yet he did not offend. Certain other did the like, and yet they may not upon these peculiar acts gather an universal conclusion against the law of set forth in the xii chapi. of Deuteronomie. For, the universal law is not abrogated by certain privileges and dispensations granted of god. The like may we say of the titles, which josuah and Samuel did set up against the written law, according to the quality of the present state, of the times, and of the persons. In the mean while the universal law of god, which forbiddeth all men to make images, or to worship them, standeth still unmovable, and is always of like force and strength. Dydimus. Why then, another 〈◊〉 ob●● 〈…〉 if they be not worshipped, or if no godly honour be done unto them, they may be had. But who would think that men are so bulleheaded, that they will worship dumb images, Answer and not rather the things that are signified and represented by them? Eutrape. Ye have learned already of our brother Philalethes, that God only ought to be worshipped. Deuter ● But God can be represented by no manner of similitude or image, yea there is an express law that doth forbid us to attempt any such thing. And where as ye say that men are not so dul●e headed, that they will worship dumb images, the experience hath taught us the contrary. For, above a thousand years ago, the people did through ignorance of the law of God, and the negligence of bishops, begin to worship dumb images. ●erenus bishop of ma●●ilia. I have for a witness of this thing, Serenus bishop of Massilia, who did in his city break down the image of christ, and the images of the saints, because that he saw them to be worshipped of the people I know well that Gregory did sore impugn that fact of his: but what Scripture doth he bring for to improve S●renus dead? None at all. Moreover if (as ye say) they did not worship the images, but the things represented by them: Why, having the rood and image of the urygyne Ma●ye at home in her own churches, Let the enemies auntter to this ●●●ction of every can. did they go a gadding to our Lady of Wilsdone, to our Lady of Walsingame, to the holy rood of Bostonne? Was not this a prayne and a manifest token and sign that they were wedded to the images, & that they thought more holiness to be in the one than in the other? would they have contented them selves with those images, that they had at home in their own churches, and spared both co●● and labour which they bestowed upon then idolatrous pilgrimages. PHILALETHES. Saying a little before that GOD can be represented by no manner of similitude, and image, ye did put me in mind of the words of Athanasius, Athana. in ●bio cont●a gentes. which are these: Let them tell me (I pray them) how GOD doth answer or is known by such things? Is it by the matter or stuff that is about them, and whereof they be made, or by the form and shape that is given them? If it be by the stuff, what need is there of the form or shape? And why did not God rather, afore they were fashioned and shapen, appear, and manifest himself, by the universal stuff? But if the form or shape that they have received, is the cause of the knowledge of God, what need is there of gold, or of any other stuff? Mark wei these words of Athanasius. or why is not God rather revealed by the true living creatures, whose shapes and forms the images are, for truly, according to their own reason, the glory of God should better be known: if god were manifested and revealed rather by the living and reasonable creatures, than by the unlyving and unreasonable. Wherein they do work great ungodliness to their own destruction. Albion. I heard once this place alleged but answer was made again, Reply of the adversaries. Answer to it. that Athanasius did write against the Gentiles and heathen. And that therefore this place maketh nothing against them. Philalethes. And I say, that as these words are written against the heathen, so may they be alleged against them, that do bring in, the gentilism or heathenyshe fashions. And what is seen, I pray you, in our pictures and images besides the stuff that they be made of, and shape that is given unto them? They say, that the form or shape, that is given unto them doth signify and teach. But I would fain know of them, The images do neither teach he learned not yet the unlearned Ergo they ●e unprofitable. whom their images and pictures do teach, the learned or the unlearned? I am sure they can not teach the unlearned, unless they have an interpreter behind them. For, the unlearned, without a teacher, shall never be able to learn, what is signified or represented by the image of the virgin Mary, nor yet by the image of the Crucifix. The learned hath no need at all to learn of pictures and images, the same which he hath most certainly learned by god's word. What shall they be able to say to his, that the chiefest mysteries of our religion can be expressed with no colours. For with what pencelle shall they be able to express the virtue of our redemption, The chief mysteries of our salvation can not be expressed by any image. the glory of the life to come, the imitation of virtues, and the obedience of the word? Let us therefore content our selves with the most true Teacher, I mean, the holy ghost, which doth teach us with the word of life, and with the Sacraments ordained by the eternal wisdom of god: Whereby all things pertaining to our salvation, my plainly be set forth unto us, and received or understanded of them, that be not void of the spirit of god. Dydimu Yet no answer hath been made to this their objection, where they say that although it was not lawful in the old time, to express God with an image, because he was not yet seen in a human form or shape yet sith being incarnated, he was made like unto us in all things, sin only being excepted, it is lawful for to have an image of him. Philalethes. Answer. to the .32. objection Dan. c 7. What will they say to this place of Daniel? The ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hears of his head like the pure wool. And by and by after: As I beheld in visions by night, behold, one like the son of man, came in the clouds of heaven, and approached unto the ancient of the days, and they brought him before him. Read ye besides the 33. and four and thirty chapter of Exodus. and the sixth chapter of isaiah. In the mean while none of the ancient prophets, or of the holy men of god did set up an image unto the father, or unto the son, neither did attempt to represent him by any similitude or shape made after the likeness of man. And what other thing did let them to do it, but the plainness of the commandment of God, The son of god did not take upon him our frail nature to the end that he should break god's law or be painted. and the reverence that they bore unto it? Neither did our saviour jesus Christ, take upon him our humane nature, for to break the law of God, or for to give unto painters a pattern or proof of their art: but for to be the pledge of the grace of GOD, of the eternal covenant and of the conjunction that is betwixt GOD and us, and that he might have what to offer for us, for the price of our redemption, & declare what we mortal men ought to hope for. For therefore did he rise again, and did carry up into heaven the body that he took of us, that we should believe, and be fully persuaded, that our bodies shall once be translated, and taken up from this vale of misery being glorified into the everlasting kingdom of heaven. Now, as much as the body doth excel, or is better than the shadow, so much doth the thing which is represented by the sign, better than the sign. Note this But the flesh of our saviour jesus Christ, if it had remained here, after the mystery of our salvation was fulfilled, had profited us nothing, much less should the lineaments, picture, or image of the body of our saviour jesus Christ do us any good: As touching his divine nature, he is coequal, and of one substance with the father. But isaiah in the xl chapter: All nations, saith he, before him, are as nothing, and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. To whom then will they like God, or what similitude will ye set up unto him? Dydimus. Obie. 33 I hold myself content with this answer. But what say ye to this, which I heard but a while ago? I was in a place, where we entered into disputation concerning these words, Idol, and Image. And there, some did affirm, that ye do them great wrong, in this, that ye call their images Idols. Where as there is a great difference betwixt them. For, by this word, eidole, they do understand the representation of a thing that is not, but this word, Image, which sometimes of the Latins is called simulachrum, is the representation of a thing which is in deed. Phila. Answer. This am I sure, they can not deny, but that where soever the 70. interpreters, have this word, cidolum ydole Hierom did translate it, simulachrum, an image. And in his eleventh book of his commentaries upon isaiah, Jerome upon these words of Ezechias prayer: Thou only art the God of all kingdoms, Their gods are no gods, but the works of men's hands, wood and stones: He did sayeth he, boldly pray unto the Lord, and doth affirm him to be the only living God. Whereby we do understand, that eidoles are the images of dead men. So far Hierom. A strong argument again t the papists. Now will I thus reason with them: Are not their images, the images of dead men, but eidoles, are the images of dead men, therefore, their images are but eidols. It is plain than the eidolu ● simulachrum, that is, an idol & an image be all one thing. Erasmus. Erasmus in his annotations that he did make upon the new Testament, which work is so highly commended by their holy father pope Leo the tenth, writeth on this manner: Thomas de Aquino, doth bring a new difference betwixt Id●lum an idol, and simulachrum, an image, because that an image is the representation of a natural thing, but an idol, is as if an horsehead should be put to a man's body. Which distinction whether it be true or not, let other judge, but it seemeth unto me to be more worthy, to be ascribed to that Lexicon, or dictionary which is called Catholicon than otherwise. Ambrose Truly, Ambrose doth make no difference betwixt an idol and an image, neither do I see any, saving only that the one is a greek word, and the other a latin word. By these words of Erasmus, we do easily understand, what is the signification & use of both the words. But this is most handsome, that they will not have their images to be likened unto the idols of the Gentiles, Psal 115. because it is written by the prophet: Their idols are silver and gold, the works of men's hands. They have mouths and speak not, they have eyes and see not: ears have they, and hear not: they have nostrils and smell not, hands have they, and feel not, feet have they and walk not, neither do they speak through their throat. Now, if they will not have their images likened unto the idols of the gentiles, they must prove, that their images be not the works of men's hands, that they can speak, see, hear, smell, feel, & walk, The images of the gentle, & the images of the idolatrous christians be a● 〈◊〉 Obie. 34. and that they can bring forth a voice from their throat. If they can do none of these things, and yet have mouths, eyes, ears, nosethrills hands & feet, if they be the works of men's hands, it must needs follow, that the images of the idolatrous christians, and of the Gentiles be all one. Albion. Well, we grant it is so. Are not these saint Paul's words? And idol is nothing in the world: if an ydole nothing in the world, what harm can it do, to keep idols, specially among them, that know that God only ought to be honoured & worshipped? Philalethes. And we will set against them, Answer. the example of the old ancient church. For how doth it chance, that neither we, nor our forefathers did find the idols of the gentiles in the common temples? Why did the holy martyrs of God, the prelate's of churches, the christian princes & judges break down the idols and images of the gods, Concilium Toletanun 3 and did scrape out all heathenyshe pictures? The third council of Toletum did make this decree: Because almost throughout all Spain or Gallicia the sacrilege of idolatry hath taken place, the holy Synod with the consent of the most glorious prince hath ordained, that every priest within his cure shall together with a judge of the territory search out diligently the forenamed sacrilege, and when it is found out, in no wise to make any tarrying, or a putting of from day to day, utterly to banish it away: & let them with such punishment, as they may, bridle all them that run unto such error: which thing if they do neglect, let them know that they both shall incur the peril of excommunication. What needed I pray you, this constitution, if to keep idols, is not hurtful unto them, which know, that God only ought to be honoured and worshipped? Did not those ancient bishops believe, that god only ought to be honoured & worshipped? Yes verily. But in the mean while they did break down all the idols: whereof it followeth, that the saying of Saint Paul hath an other meaning: Let us see therefore what is the right sense of it. The right exposition of the place taken out of. 1. Cor. ● Theophilactus did expound and set forth the occasion of this place on this manner: There were some perfect among the Corinthians, which were of opinion that man could not be defiled with any thing that went into the belly: and, which did undoubtedly understand and know, that idols are made of wood or of stone, & that they can hurt no man: & therefore going indifferently to the temples and altars of such idols: they did greedily eat of the things that were offered unto idols, when they which were of a weaker faith did see this, some of them went with the rest unto the idols temples, & did eat with them of those things that were offered unto the idols, but not with a like mind & opinion, as they which believed the idols to be unworthy to whom any sacrifice should be offered. This their doing did move Paul to be angry. And why not? For it hurted them both marvelously. It hurted them that were more perfect, because it made them partakers of the devils board: It hurted them that were loss perfect, because it moved them to idolatry. Paul therefore goeth about to remedy this evil, and so omitting or leaving them (as many times he is wont to do) that were of less perfection, he speaketh unto them that were more perfect, and doth most chief repress and beat down that vain pride, which they had conceived of their humane knowledge & science. So much doth Theophilactus write of the occasion and argument of this present pl●●e. How Pau●●oth ha el ●im self in ●ls matter. Saint Paul doth handle the whole matter after this sort: first in the beginning, he doth with a goodly crordium, touch the arrogancy of the false apostles, teaching that any manner of knowledge be it never so excellent, if it be not moderated and ruled by charity, is not only unprofitable, but also most pernitions and hurtful. Afterwards he doth rehearse the arguments and objections of the adversaries, which he answereth by and by. This his saying, 1. Cor. 8. We know that an idol is nothing in the world, doth pertain to the declaration of the adversaries argument: for, they that gloried in their knowledge went about to prove that it was lawful for any man to eat of those things, that were offered unto idols, after this manner: The gods of the gentiles are nothing: Therefore their images and sacrifices are nothing also. Didymus. How did they prove their antecedent, or the first part of their argument? Philalethes. They did prove it thus: There is but one only God: whatsoever then is spoken of the gods, it is both vain and false. The conclusion is proved after this sort: The idol or image doth represent him whose yamge it is. But it is most evident and plain, that the gods are nothing. Whereupon it must also follow that their idols are nothing. His meaning is not, that the idols that be in the world, be nothing at al. For, they are wood and stone, but because that they be of no value, force, The reason or P●u●e. ●uersaries or strength. Now Paul's adversaries taking occasion of this, reasonned on this wise: Sith that it is most certain, that idols are vain, it is evident and plain that the worshipping of them is vain also. If it be vain, and the godly whithe confess, that god only aught to be worshipped, do believe it to be vain: the godly may without any scrupulosity of conscinece be present at the sacrifices of the gentiles, and sit with them at their feasts and banquets, which they do keep in the honour of their idols. For, the mind being restored unto itself, doth honour and worship the true living God alone: therefore it contemneth idols, and can not sith it is purified by faith, be polluted or defiled with those things that be offered unto them. Paule● auns●vere to ●heir reasons. Unto all those, Paul maketh this answer: Although thou dost believe, that there is but one God, and dost therefore understand, that both the idols, the worshipping of them, and the sacrifices offered unto them, are but mere vanity, yet all men do not see so much, neither do they come to the sacrifices, with the same conscience. He that is weak, and hath not yet clean put away his old inveterate error, which he had sucked of his forefathers, doth with a conscience sit at such meats, and according to his old superstition, which he hath no fully shaken of, doth fear and dread those gods, specially when he seeth thee, whom he taketh to be of a found judgement, to sit at such profane meats. For, he doth suspect, that thou dost eat with none other conscience, than he doth, and so he is not smally offended with thy bold example. Both Ambrose, Theophilactus, and also Erasmus, do allow this exposition. Now if ye will apply this to our purpose, ye shall find nothing that doth more strongly impugn the images. For, although he, which is of strong faith, knoweth the image to be nothing, yet another which hath a weaker faith, will not so judge. But as long as he shall see them thus to stand in the churches: He will reason thus with himself: idolatry, is not so damnable as the preachers do say it is, sith that they are yet kept in the churches, and are tolerated or borne withal of some learned men: so they that from their cradle have been nuzzled in superstition, and have been persuaded, that there is some holiness in the images are kept still in error, & can never come to a perfect & pure faith. Images ought to be pardon in all churches. Therefore it is a most wise point to pull down all images, sith that it is against all reason, that a thing of nought should stand in the house of God, in the place of prayer, and thereby had in reverence. But the apostle doth briefly and shortly conclude or knit up the whole disputation saying: Therefore well beloved, fly from idolatry. Albion. Obie. 35 Yet it seemeth good unto me, that we should have the image of Christ being crucified, with the images of his principal apostles, and specially of the blessed virgin Mary, the mother of our saviour jesus Christ, for to put put us in mind of the passion of Christ, and of the excellent virtues of his faithful servants. The dullness of men in ●●ings tha●●erta●●e t●●ut saluatio● Eutrapelus. I find now by experience that the same is most true, which our brother Philalethes doth many times repeat in his sermons, that is, how that a good thing hath need to be repeated and spoken of, many times, and often, else it will not be remembered. Ye heard a little before, that the means appointed of god, for to put us in mind of our Saviour jesus Christ, and of the salvation purchased by him, are the preaching of the gospel, and the right and due ministration of the sacraments, according to the institution and ordeinance of the eternal wisdom of God, & that we are assured by god's promises that the holy ghost doth with these means work in the hearts of the elect and chosen: but as for images, they be expressly forbidden in god's book, it is so far of, that they should be appointed for to be means, whereby the holy ghost should plant faith in our hearts, or stir up our minds to the knowledge of god, & to the imitation of his saints. And because above all other ye would have the image of Christ, The image of ●he●● of all other is most perilous. I let you to understand, brother Albion, that of all other the image of christ is most perilous. For, the holier the person is, which is represented by the image, ye shall find the greater peril of idolatry to be in it. Therefore it was not without a just cause, that those godly Emperors, Valens and Theodosius, did set forth this godly decree: Scythe that this is our chiefest care, above all things to maintain the religion of the high god, we grant to no man, Pertus Crinitus li. 9 de hone●ta di●ciplina, ca 9 to grave or paint the image of our saviour Christ, neither to paint it with colours, nor to grave it in sons, or in any other matter. ‡ But where soever it is found, we do bid ●t to be taken away. being determined to punish grievously those, that will attempt any thing contrary to our decrees. Wherein, if any man perchance doth require an author, let him read the edicts and decrees of Emperors, which have been gathered by these great learned men Tribunianus, Basilides, Theophilus Dioscorus and other, and most chiefly by the commandment of justinianus the Emperor. Hereby do we learn that it pertaineth to the maintenance of true religion to put ●oune all images, yea the image of our saviour jesus Christ, What we do learn by the decree of those e●●perours. because that in it there is most peril of idolatry. And again that V●lens and Theodosius did not this alone but many other Emperors, whose decrees and edicts by the commandment of justinianus, have been collected and gathered together, by these great learned men afore rehearsed. Philalethes. Unto these worthy Emperors, will I join a most godly ancient bishop, whose greek Epistle being sent to john, bishop of Jerusalem, Jerome did translate into latin, his name is Epiphanius. The words of the epistle are these, Epiphanius bishop of ●alamena ● 1● Cypius. The ministration of the supper of the Lord was called collecta, most chiefly because, ●hat the gathe●●●ges were made for the ●o●c●. When we were going together to the holy place, which is called Bethel, there to celebrate the communion with thee, according to the Ecclesiastical manner, and was come to a ferm place called Anablatha, and did see there, passing by a light burning, and did ask what the place was, and had learned that it was a church, and had gone for to pray, there I found, as it were a vail died or painted, and having the image as it were of Christ, or of some saint. For I do not well remember whose image it was. Therefore, when I did see that the image of man, did hang in the church contrary to the scriptures, I rent it, and did rather give council to the wardens of the place, that they should wind some poor dead body in it. And a little after: Bid I beseech thee, the elders of that place to receive of the bearer, the veil that is sent by us: and charge them, that from henseforth no such veils be hanged in the church of christ, that are contrary to our religion. For, it be cometh thine honesty, to have chief this solicitude and care, that the scrupulosity unseemly for the church of Christ, and the people committed unto thee, should be taken away. Wherein we do learn all these godly lessons. Eight godly lessons we learn by ●●pipha●● ' 2 first, that no place ought to be given in the church of Christ to those things that are against the authority of the holy scriptures. secondly, that to give place in the church of christ unto images, it is against the authority of the holy scriptures, that is, of that law, which saith: Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven image. Ero. 20. Thrydely that not only graven & molten images, and such as be set up on high, upon or over the altars, but also the painted images ought to be cast out of the churches. Fourthly that the image of christ himself, ought in no wise to stand in the church, because that of all other it is most perilous, and breedeth the greatest idolatry. Fyftelye that the images ought to be cast out of the church of christ, not only by sedulity and diligence of doctrine, but also b very fact and deed. Syrtelye, that they ought not coldly, but with a servant and earnest zeal of the true religion be put down, defaced, and broken all to pieces, as we do see this holy man of God Epiphanius to have rent and torn in pieces the veil that had the image of Christ painted, which he did being moved with the zeal of god. seventhly, that it is the part and duty of bishops, to see that images be not set up in the church of Christ. Last of all, that it is a mere scrupulosity and superstition, unseemly for the church, and the faithful people of god, to have images. Here may we see, that this godly ancient bishop did much differ in judgement, from those fond persons that think it to be a profitable thing for the people of God, to have images standing in the churches. Let them way these things, that have always the fathers in their mouths, and so let them learn, that it is more honesty for us, to be called e●conoclastae, that is, image breakers, than to be called eiconoplastae, that is, image makers, and that we do approach nearer to the example of the old ancient church than they do, although they brag and boast themselves to be catholic and apostolic. Eutrapelus. I would fain it now of them what those churches, over whom Epiphanius was appointed superindentent or bishop, did want to the right edifying of true godliness. Philalethes. As ye say, for, he was a Christian bishop, he did preach, that Christ was the saviour of the world, he did dispose the mysteries of his kingdom unto the faithful, and did build the house of god, without images, of wood, of stones, of silver and gold, Epiphaulu● in building god▪ house followed the steps of the ancient bishops. or without any painted, graven or molten images, following in this the steps of the patriarchs and Prophets, of christ, and of his apostles. Which all did plant religion and the true worshipping of GOD without images. Dydimus. If we had many Epiphanius in this realm, not one church window should be left hole thorougheoute all England, there should be neither cross nor crucifix left. EUTRAPELUS. Would God that we christians would labour & study to know the true cross of Christ. Of the cro● Math. 16. Our Saviour jesus Christ doth say, He that will come after me, let him forsake himself, take up his cross and follow me. Here, in this place by the cross, he doth understand, Cross taken for affliction and trouble. the affliction trouble and persecution, that all they that will live godly in our saviour jesus Christ are subject unto. But the most part of those that delight so much in material crosses, do take good heed, that they shall not be fain to bear this cross of christ. For, they flatter to with the world, swimming still betwixt two waters, that howsoever it goeth with religion, they think to escape free, and to be without all troubles. Paul writing to the Galathians maketh mention of an other cross, Galati 5. affirming that they that be of christ, have crucified the flesh with the lusts and concupiscences of the same. Cross taken for continual repentance and mortifying of the flesh Whereby he doth mean, the continual repentance that ought to be in us, the mortifying of the flesh and of the lusts and concupiscences of the same, and the brydeling of our corrupted and poisoned nature, and of our inordinate passions. There is also an other cross, 1. Corin 1 which saint Paul doth speak of, in the first epistle or the Corinthians, saying, Christ hath not sent me to baptise but to preach the gospel, not with persuading words of worldly wisdom, lest the cross of Christ should be abolished. For, the word of the cross is a foolishness to them that perish, Galat. 6. but to us that obtain salvation, it is the power of god. And in an other place, God forbidden that I should rejoice, but in the cross of our lord jesus Christ, whereby the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. In these last texts, by the cross he doth understand, the death and passion of our saviour jesus Christ, Cross take for the death of 〈…〉 for the preaching of the same. and the preaching of the same. As if Paul should say: I seek none other where for the free pardonne and forgiveness of my sins, and for my deliverance from eternal death, and from the power of Satan, but in the merits of the death, passion, and bloudesheading of our saviour jesus christ: Neither do I delight to preach and set forth any other thing, for to declare the goodness and mercy of God, and the salvation of mankind, but the death of his only be gotten son. These kinds of crosses, ought the true christians to delight and glow in. Dydimus. I red but a while ago, Aungeli. a certain book, made in time of persecution, where wonverfull many doctors of the primitive church, are alleged, which do all maintain the sign, Osius. and as he saith, the image of the cross. There is also one Osius, which hath written lately against the religion that is now, and he doth also bring many doctors which do hold with the sign of the cross. EUTRAPELUS. As for the first I know him full well. In deed we have many such evil & wicked angels, that go about to pervert the sincerity of Christ's religion, and that they may do it with a better colour, they will allege the fathers where they have no warrant at all of god's word, and where they speak as men. Galati 1. But what shall they win by it? If an angel from heaven should preach unto me any other Gospel, than hath been preached, he shallbe unto me Anathema that is to say: Tertullian de praese iphaereticorun. accursed. Are not these Tertullians' words: We ought to indulge or bring nothing of our own head, neither to choose that which any man hath brought in of his own head, or of his own brain. We have the apostles for our authors, which did not those of their own brains, what they should bring in, but did faithfully assign and deliver unto nations that, which they received of the Lord. Therefore, if an angel from heaven should preach any other Gospel unto us, we would pronounce it to be accursed. Are not also these Hieromes words. Hiero. in Ma ca 23. Quod de scripturis non habet autoritatem, eadem facilitate contemnitur, qua probatur. That is: That which hath no authority out of the scriptures, or by the scriptures, may as easily be contemned as it is proved. Ambro. de virginibus lib. 4. Ambrose also writeth on this manner. We do by good right condemn all new things, that christ hath not taught. For, Christ is the way unto the faithful. If therefore, CHRIST hath not taught that, which we do teach, we do also judge it execrable▪ hear also what Origene sayeth. We have need to bring the Scriptures for a witness. Orige. ho. ●. in ●●e. For our meanings and expositions, without these witnesses have no credit. These testimonies and authorities of the forefathers do sufficiently prove that the old ancient writers ought no farther, to be believed than they do bring God's word for their warrant. But in all these authorities that both your angelical writer, and also Ossus doth bring, what warrant of God's word have they? DYDIMVS. Obi. 36 Augu. 11 ●ct●. 118. in joannem I do think none other, but that ye will attribute much to Saint augustine, as to him whom all men do acknowledged to be one of the chief pillars of the church. But these are his very words: What is it, that all men do know the sign of christ? Which sign, if it be not made either in the foreheads of them that do believe, or in the water, wherewith we are regenerated, or in the oil wherewith we are annoyncted, or in the sacrifice wherewith they are fed and nourished, none of all these things is rightly done. What could be spoken more plainly than this? Eutrapelus. Answer. In deed this is plainly spoken: But where is the scripture or word of God, that he doth bring for his warrant? Hear now what he saith himself: Neither ought we to take the disputations of all men, Augu. episto ad fortuna. 111. how catholic soever and commendable they be, as the Canonical scriptures, as though we may not, safe the reverence that is due unto such men, improve and refuse any thing of their writings, if we find that they have meant otherwise, than the truth doth allow, being by the help of God, found by us or by other And in an other place: I am not moved with the authority of this epistle. For I do not take the letters of Cyprian as the canonical scriptures. but I do try his writings by the canonical scriptures, Contra Cres●on. g●●ma●● 〈◊〉. 2. c 32. And whatsoever in them doth agree with th● authority of the holy scriptures, I do receive it with his commendation, and what so ever doth not agree with god's word, I do by his good leave refuse it. many other places might I allege out of this ancient Father, but these with the rest alleged before, shall suffice to prove, how farrefoorthe men, be they never so excellent, ought to be credited. Now let us cope somewhat nearer with our enemies: where, in all those places, that they both do allege, is there any jot or syllable of god's word? But the Doctoures will be believed, but as far forth as they do bring God's word for their warrant: therefore in all those authorities that they have brought, I may choose whether I will believe them or not. How many things have been used by those forefathers, which afterwards have been abolished? In Tertullians' time, Many things did the old mei fathers use which by good right are now out down. milk and honey was given and offered unto them that were baptized. Both in Cyprians and in saint Augustine time they ministered the communion unto young infants and babes. But yet all these things have been by good right abolished, so may it be of all other things that have been used without the word of GOD, as is their consecrated or holy oil, which which they called Chrism, the sign of the cross, and other like things, that have no express commandment in God's book. Dydimus. Obie. 37 How chanceth that by the sign of the Cross (as they say) the devils and unclean spirits have been driven away, if it be not allowed of God, nor yet by his word? EUTRAPELUS. Answer. It may be, that this, as all other miracles, was granted for a time, for to get more authority unto the doctrine of the gospel, and unto the christian religion, among the unbelieving Gentiles, Chr. 49 in Ma. 24. ca Augu. lib 1. ●etract. ca 23. but now, yea a great whiles since, as both Chrysostom and Augustine doth testify, the working of miracles is ceased. So that now we ought rather to take good heed unto ourselves, lest we be seduced and deceived by Satan the devil, and made to put our trust where no trust is to be put. What crossing, I pray you, do the conjurers, charmers, and sorcerers of our time use? I do not deny, but that the unclean spirits, make sometimes as though they were wonderfully scared with their crossing? But wherefore is this, but for to bring their devilish art, whereof the unclean spirits theirselves, are authors to greater credit. To be short, they go about by this doctrine, to make us to lean that wherein our whole trust ought to be, and to put our trust in things of nought. Ye know, what lying tales we have heard of their conjured water, of what virtue, power, The lvinge ●ales touching conjured water. and strength, it hath been for to drive away unclean spirits, where soever it should be sprinkled: so that they did most sacrilegeously attribute unto their beggarly inventions the same, that ought only and solely to be attributed unto the blood of our saviour jesus Christ, being through faith, and by the mighty operation of the holy ghost, sprinkled in our consciences. Exo. 12, For as the blood of the lamb being stricken on the two posts, and upon the upper post of the door of the Hebrews houses, did keep of the destroyer, not because that the blood of a brute beast had any such virtue of itself, but because it was the lords institution, builded on his word, and through faith obeyed of the Hebrews. Even so, the blood only of our saviour jesus Christ (whereof the blood of the paschal Lamb was a figure) being by the mighty operation of the Holy ghost, and through faith (as I said before) sprinkled in our consciences, can keep and preserve us from the destroyer, that is, from the enemy of our salvation, Satan the devil. Dydimus. Obi. 38 At Alexandria (as it appeareth by the Ecclesiastical histories (every Christian had the sign of the Cross painted upon their posts, and in the entering of their houses, and upon their pillars. Eutrapelus. Ye may also add, that the old ancient christians when they went forth, were wont commonly to make the sign of the cross upon their foreheads. But what maketh this for your purpose? Why the old Christians did use the sign of the cross. They did it, neither for to put themselves in remembrance of the passion of Christ (for they had then the word of God lively preached unto them, and the sacraments rightly ministered) nor yet for to drive away unclean spirits, but for to declare unto all the holle world, that they were nothing ashamed of Christ crucified: and that they were at all times ready to bear his cross, whensoever it should please him to lay it upon them, and to live and die in his quarrel. But now sith that we all profess Christ, and glory in his death, which he suffered upon the cross, what need have we of such ceremonies, sith that they were never commanded of God, and much idolatry at length hath grown about them, in somuch that the same which ought only to be attributed unto the preaching of the gospel, and to the right ministration of the sacraments, and consequently unto the death, passion, and bloodsheading of our Saviour jesus Christ, offered and represented unto us by the same, hath been most ungodly attributed unto the works of their own hands. Whereby they do well deserve to be put down, and to be clean abolished. The brazen serpent (whereof we spoke before) was erected and set up by the express commandment of God, it was unto the hebrews a monument, memorial, or remembrance of the benefits that they had received at gods hands in the wilderness, when they were delivered from the sting of the fiery serpents, and a figure of our saviour jesus Christ Yet as soon as the people began to abuse it, good king Ezechias did not stick to break it down. How much more ought christian princes to do the like in those things, which god never commanded, and by the means whereof, the world hath been filled with idolatry? Dydimus. Ye can prove no such thing by the sign of the cross. Eutrapelus. No? Besides all that hath been said already: it is not unknown unto you, what kneeling, knocking, and creeping to the cross, hath been used among the idolatrous christians, & what godly honour hath been given unto a piece of metal, or of wood, and stone, being fashioned after the likeness of a cross. Didymus A small shift This was not done to the cross, but to him that did hang on the cross. Eutrapelus. So did the heathen go about to excuse their idolatry, saying, that they did not worship the idols that were made of wood and stone, of silver and gold, or of some other metal, but them, that the images did represent. I marvel that the christians be not ashamed in this point to be like unto the idolatrous heathen. Dydimus. Obi. 39 Damascene. Doth not that good doctor Damascenus, affirm plainly, that the sign of the cross ought to be worshipped? I do the boldlier allege him, because that he is of no small antiquity. Eutra. Answer. And I will set against him, that most holy and learned father Ambrose, who is a great deal more ancient than he: Am. de obi▪ Theodosii. speaking of the finding out of the holy cross by Helen Constantine's mother, he saith these words: invenit ergo Helena titulum, regem adoravit, non lignum utique, quia hic Gentilis est error, & vanitas impiorum, sed adoravit illum, qui pependit in ligno, scriptus in titulo, That is: Helen therefore, did find the title, she worshipped the king, and not the wood verily. For, this is an error of the Gentiles, and a vanity of the ungodly: But she worshipped him that hung on the wood, which was written in the title. Here do we learn, that to worship even the very cross that Christ did hang upon, it is an error of the gentiles, and a vanity of the ungodly. Now, if the cross that Christ did hang upon, and did imbrue with his blood, may not be worshipped, unless we will run into the error of the idolatrous heath and into the vanity of the ungodly: Note this argument. how much less ought the other crosses that are only made after the figure and likeness of it to be worshipped? It is a wonder, to see your great learned rabbiss, to be fallen into such a dotage, or rather to be grown into such arageous madness, that they will with fire and sword compel men to worship a piece of metal, of wood or stone. But this is most to be abhorred of all, that they have given unto it, the honour of invocation (which as it hath been sufficiently proved before, It beginneth Vexil la regis prodeunt. doth pertain only to god) For, thus shall ye find written in the hymn, which they do sing on passion sunday. O crux ave spes unica, hoc passionis tempore, auge p●is justitiam, reisque dona veniam. That is: O cross, being our only hope, at this time of the passion, augment and increase righteousness in the godly, and give pardon to them that are guilty. What could be spoken more blasphemously than this? I do here let pass that idolatry of the good friday, as they do term it, when they be wont to roar out in a foreign tongue, their crucem tuam adoramus Domine we do worship thy cross O lord, whiles the people as amazed geese are creeping on their knees unto a piece of metal. Dydimus. Obi. 4 But now all things are put down, all idolatry is taken away, and the creeping unto the no more used. Therefore, it may be had without any peril. Eutrapelus. Answer. Ye are greatly beguiled, if ye think so. At the first, the cross was not brought in, to the intent that it should be worshipped, but only for the considerations afore rehearsed: Yet we see by process of time, the devil did by the means of if, fill all the world with idolatry. And think thou that he is not still that devil that he was? or that he will not to the worlds end so we most busily his poysonned darnel, in the lords field? It is very hard even at this present time that the Gospel is most purely and sincerely preached every where, to keep the people from worshipping of the cross, wheresoever it is set up. What will it be, where the Gospel is not preached? or where it is not set forth accordingly? Philalethes. Three great mischiefs that the images because Wis. 14. They say, that images may be had, so that they be not worshipped, but I am of a contrary opinion. For, I can not see but that they do much harm at all times, and cause great mischief. first and foremost. The sight of them doth allure men unto idolatry, which of our own corrupted nature we are from our cradle inclyved unto. For, thus we read in the book of wisdom: of the creatures of God, they are become abomination, and stumbling blocks, unto the souls of men & a snare for the feet of the unwise. for the inventing of images is the beginning of whooredom, and the finding of them, the corruption of life. By these words, we do learn, that the good creatures of god, as gold, silver and other like, are by the bringing in of images, made an abomination before god, and that where as they be appointed, for the serve men, they are by such means made stumbling blocks & snares unto their souls, that I should in the mean while speak nothing of the tilthy whooredom that under the pretence & colour of their pilgrimages unto this idol or the idol, hath been committed in the world: which was and is a just punishment of god for the breaking of the spiritual wedlock whereby god hath coupled us unto him. Wisd. 15 In an other place of the same book it is laid to the images charge, that they do lead into error, that the work of them is without fruit, & that thy move the minds of the unwise unto concupiscence. Eutra. We read in the histories of the Greeks, that a certain image of Venus was so cunningly made, and so gorgeously trimmed, that many young men were inflamed and set on fire with the love of it, so that many times the idol was found in the morning polluted & defied with the seed of man. And do they not now a days, where papistry doth yet reign, set out the images of their holy women, as very brothels, strumpets and whores? Again, when they see such precious, jewels hanging about them, are they not rather moved to covetousness, than to any godly devotion. Not far hence it happened, that a certain goldsmith was very sick, and at the point of death, A true tale his curate then came unto him, & brought with him a cross of fine silver being double gilted, & when he had after his manner given him some exhortation, he did show unto him that cross with the crucifix hanging upon it, saying, now, sir, I have brought you here your maker, your saviour, and redeemer, look upon him. The goldesmythe, said nothing a great while, but when he had well beholden the cross, he did suddenly ask the priest: What is the price of an ounce? was not this man well edified by the sight of this goodly cross, think ye? Philalethes. Saint Augustine in his Epistle to one called Deogratias, writeth on this manner: Who doth doubt, Augustine but that idols and images are without all sense or feeling? But when they are set up in high & honourable places that they may be beholden of them that do either pray or offer: They do with the similitude and likeness of lively and sensible members, although they be both insensible and without life, move the weak minds, so that they seem to be alive and to have breath. Here, we see to be attributed unto images, that with the likeness of lively members, they do move weak hearts. And that therefore they are perilously set forth unto them, whose books they are thought for to be, and specially, if they be put in high & honourable places, where prayer & the common exercises of religion are used Secondly, the images have always this harm annexed unto them: they do with draw and pluck away the hearts and minds of men, from the earnest beholding of the majesty of god, shining most brightly in his living creatures, which are always, and every where seen with the eye, whereas images are the dead works not of god, but of mortal men, and are not to be seen every where, but are kept in corners and secret places. They that gave after images, are not moved with the lively work of God, made to set forth his glory, but they are moved with the dead work of a mortal man, which doth only commend and f●tte forth the vain and unprofitable science and c●nnyng of the word man. We see a living man, and we do never a whit the more remember the common Creator of us all, nor yet be moved to celebrate, and set forth his divine majesty. But let the image of a dead man be seen, by and by the mind is moved with I cannot tell what, devotion or rather superstition. The heavens do set forth the glory of god, and the firmament the works of his hands, saith the prophet David. But how deaf, blind & unsensible, are the worshippers of images, unto those works of God? The wiseman sayeth not: go unto this image or that image, Prove. 6. O sluggard, but go unto the Pismyre, and behold her ways and be wise. For, she having no guide, governor nor ruler, prepareth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in harvest. There is more to be learned at one of the smallest creatures of God, A notable history of Antony. than at all the images and idols of the world. Lucca. We read that Antony the holy Hermit, who lived in wilderness, being so far unlearned that he could not read, was once asked of a friend, how he passed the time away, sith he lived alone and had no books: yes said Antony, I want no books. For, all the creatures of god are my books. I read and learn his maiestly out of his creatures, as ye do out of your books. And truly they are goodly books to look on, and to behold, All the creatures of god may be the books of the lay people. I mean the sun, the Moon, the stars, birds, fishes, beasts, herbs, corn and grass, trees, hills, rivers. And verily he is worse than a brute beast, that can look at all these things, and not love, praise & wonder at his strength power, wisdom, and goodness, which hath made all these things to serve us. The heavenly lights do keep so good an order, and course intheir moving the virtue of herbs, is such to cure and heal diseases, and all fishes, fowls, and beasts do feed and serve man which things do come from him, who is LORD of nature. ALBION. I confess and grant that these may better be called lay men's and the unlearned people's books, than images and idols, which be like unto whom soever it pleaseth the painter to make them like. PHI. The third harm that the images do bring, is this: Those things, that should be bestowed upon the living images of god, I mean upon the poor and n●●y, the same is bestowed upon dead and dumb images. scarcely one halfpenny is given to Christ, being an hungerd in his poor limbs: but men can will find in their hearts to give whole hundreds of crowns, towards the setting up and trimming of images. DYDIMVS. Oh preposterous devotion. I know a church, where the rood and rood loft, did cost eleven score pounds. Philalethes. But if they had bestowed but half that money upon the poor of their parish in the time of the great dearth, that was then or there about: they would have thought themselves undone. Let them read Clemens fift book, which they say, he did write to james the brother of the lord. If ye will (saith he) worship truly the image of the lord (we show that unto you, How we may ho●● the image of god a right. which is true) do good unto man, which is made after the image of God, honour and reverence him, feed him, when he is an hungered, give him drink when he is a thirst, cloth him being naked, harbour him, being harbourless, visit him, when he is sick a●●n prison, and minister unto him th●●e things that he hath need of. It followeth: what honouring of god is this to run agadding, to wooden and stony images, and to worship insensible and lifeless idols, and in the mean while to despise man, in whom is the image of god? Understand therefore that this is the persuasion of the serpent, that lieth hid within, who persuadeth you that ye shall seem godly, when ye do honour and worship unsensible idols, and that ye shall not seem ungodly, when ye hurt the sensible and reasonable creatures. Eutr. Who hearing and marking all these things, and weighing the harms that come by images would not be at defiance with them? Every man I trow. But yet, this is not all. For what hurt and loss hath all Christendom received by the occasion of images? For, as the images, which Solomon did in his old age, erect and set up, were the cause of the schism and division that was after his death in Israel, I mean, that at one clap, Images causes of division in the common wealth of Israel, and also in the empire. whole ten tribes did fall away from the house of David, and did chose unto theimselues a king, Hieroboam the Ephraimite, who setting up the golden calves in Dan and Bethel, caused all Israel to commit most detestable idolatry, whereof utter destruction of both the realms did ensue and follow: so the contention that did rise about images betwixt the east and west churches, and the damnable stoutness of the bishop of Rome with his adherentes in maintaining and defending not only the images, but also the idolatrous worshipping of them did breed a very hurtful division in the Empire, whereby all Christendom was wonderfully weakened. For, after that Ravenna with rest of italy, and all France with Germany, were by the subtle and wily means of the bishop of Rome, revolted and fallen away from the Emperor of Constantinople. The Saracens and Mahometistes did ware wonderfully strong, and at length did marvelously prevail. For, they subdued mighty peoples, Realms, & Cities, defacing and putting down every where the true religion of Christ, The mischief that the contention about the ymage● did breed and setting up the Mahometishe religion. This was the goodly fruit, of the setting up of images, of the maintaining of the idolatrous worshipping of them, and of the contention that did rise about thym, whiles the one did affirm, according to the scriptures, that images ought in no wise to be had, and the other against the express word of God and commandment, that they ought not only to be had, but also to be worshipped: whereof such an envy and hatred did rise betwixt them, that they would in no wise help, aid and succour one an other against the common enemy, being in this point most like unto juda and Israel, which after their division, which chanced by reason of Idols, never loved or trusted one an other, seeking the friendship and amity of foreign kings and princes, now of the Assyrians, now of the Babylonians, now otherwiles of the Egyptians, that so they might the sooner destroy one an other: till at length by the righteous judgement of God, they were both delivered up into the hands of their enemies. Dydimus. I would fain hear the whole history, if it were not tedious unto you. EUTRAPELUS. The history is very long, and therefore I will hereafter send it unto you by writing. Dydimus. I hold myself well content with it, and specially sith that both our brother Philalethes, and you, have so well satisfied our minds in this matter. Albion. In deed I was never better satisfied in this point thatn I am now, I thank God most heartily for it. first and foremost we have learned, that God only ought to be called upon, and prayed unto: ●he conclu●on of the ●hole book And that therefore they that in their necessities do by prayer fly unto dead creatures, do rob God of his glory, and do commit most damnable sacrilege. Which thing was sufficiently proved by manifest texts of the scriptures, and by strong authorities of the ancient fathers of the primitive Churches all the objections that the adversaries can make, being mightily answered and confuted. Secondly, ye have plainly showed unto us, that we ought to acknowledge none other mediator betwixt god & man but our Saviour jesus Christ only, whom the Scriptures do appoint unto us, for the omnisufficient saviour of mankind, and for our only intercessor, advocate, and mediator, making no mention at all, of the intercession or mediation of the dead Saints, which thing the Holy ghost would not have omitted, if the dead Saints, or the Saints departed out of this world had been either appointed or allowed of god to be intercessors unto him for us. The texts of the scriptures, and the authorities of the ancient writers by you alleged, are so many, are so mighty & strong, that the enemies of the truth may be ashamed to maintain still their gross and idolatrous opinion. thirdly, it hath been declared, that as the saints, that be already in glory with God ought not to be called upon, nor to be taken for our mediators, so no godly honour ought to be given unto them, forasmuch as it is a service, which is due only unto God. Where, ye had an occasion to show how many ways, the true and faithful servants of God, being departed hence in the faith of his son jesus Christ, may be honoured, and that the greatest honour that we can do unto them, is to obey their godly and sound doctrine, whereby they have instructed us in the true religion and worshipping of the true only god, and also to follow their faith and other heavenly virtues, whereby they did glorify God, whiles they lived here in this world. This also was done by the infallible word of God, and testimonies of the holy Doctors of the true Catholic church, all the objections of the adversaries being quite overthrown by the same. last of all, ye have proved, that no figure, image, or likeness of God, nor of his son jesus Christ, nor of the Holy ghost, nor yet of the saints, ought to be had in the house of prayer, or in any other place, where so ever there is any peril of idolatry. And that there can be no use of them, in the Oratories or praying places of the Christians, but rather that they do most hurt, where soever they be used and kept. Ye have showed by the way, what is the true Cross, that we ought to delight and have a pleasure in, and that as for the material crosses they do more hurt than good, and that therefore for avoiding of offences, they ought to be taken away. These things have been so substantially done, that I hold myself satisfied in all points, and I do geue God most hearty thanks, that we have so well spent this day. Dydimus. In deed this day was fruitfully spent. Laude and praise be unto god therefore for ever and ever. Eutrape. Amen. FINIS. ¶ IMPRINTED AT London by Henry Sutton for Thomas ●acket. Ther. day of March. In the year of our Lord God 1561.