PETRUS VIRETUS. oval portrait of Pierre (or Peter) Viret in a decorated rectangular frame THE Christian disputations, BY MASTER PETER VIRET. Divided into three parts, Dialogue wise: Set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take great pleasure in the reading thereof. Translated out of French into English, by john Brook of ash. Math. seven. d. 21. Not every one that says unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: but he that doth my father's will which is in heaven. MIEULX VAULT MOURIR E VERTV QVE VIURE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206) ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East. 1579. To the most reverent Father in God EDMUND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury, Primate and Metrapolitan of England: john Brooke wisheth in this life prosperity, and eternal felicity in Christ our Saviour. REading for mine own private exercise and studies, the worthy work of Master Peter Viret, entitled, The Christian disputations (right reverent Father) the sweet entry into the same, with such pleasant allurements of comfortable matter, so drew and tolled me forwade, as unneaths I could cease, until I had clean discoursed and go thorough the whole work. Which having once accomplished, and due consideration thereupon had, according to my slender capacity, I thought I could not bestow my time in any thing more worthy grateful acceptance, then in publyshing and setting forth the same, that others might be made partakers of my comfortable delights, and delightful comforts taken in reading hereof. Not meaning like a churl, alone to devour such a rich banquet, furnished with so great a number of junkets and delicate dishes, but to invite thereunto (according to the intent of mine Author, a company worthy such a feast, which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion, I have, for the great good will and zeal ●owe unto my native Country, and for their better taste, translated and set forth the same, after the English manner: wherein my small unlearned skill desirous of sure supportation and good defence, craveth your grace as chief to give me credit and countenance, against the biting sting of Zoilous people & heretical Papists, whose stomachs may in no wise digest or abide the good & wholesome diet in this feast prepared, whose unsavoury tastes, as I seek not to content, so I fear not to offend. Trusting your grace will accept this my bold enterprise as proceeding of hearty good will towards you, and earnest love born unto my country, preferring my zealous intent, and the Godliness of the matter unto the unworthiness and slender skill showed in the translation. As I shall daily pray unto Almighty God, to govern and direct your grace, in all your affairs, by his holy spirit, remaining ever. Your graces bound during life: john Brooke. john Caluyn unto the Readers. THE love of God our Father, and the grace of our Lord jesus Christ, be given to you, and multiplied from day to day, thorough the communion of the holy Ghost. There is an ancient Poet which says, that he which delighteth and profiteth altogether in his writings, hath gained the price and favour towards all men. The same is spoken because of the diversity of natures. It is very true, that the only doctrine, wherein we know it to be good and profitable, aught to suffice us, for to incitate and provoke us to read willingly a book, to give and bestow thereon all our study, to love and set by it, and finally to take pleasure in it. But there are a great many, and well near the most part, which will be a great deal better pleased, that one should teach than after a gentle & pleasant fashion, than otherwise: In such sort, that as in recreating themselves, they may profit & receive instruction, liven then as those which occupy themselves to make books of pastime, vain and frivolous, & which cause the world to read them, are to be vituperated and despised although they have no corruption in them: So on the other side, those which have the grace, so to teach that they do both delight and profit the Readers thorough their pleasant stile, are double to be praised. And in very deed that is a virtue & a gift which is not in all men. Yea, often times the wisest cannot attain unto it. And which is more do make themselves to be laughed at in desning that which is not given unto them. For a man which desireth to use merry conceits and jests, aught to beware of two vices. The one is, that he do nothing of compulsion, or laugh over much, as there are a great many which have cold laughters, the which do seem as though they were pulled out of their throat by force. The other is, not to use bawdy & filthy talk, the which is called in Latin scurrilitas, in our language pleasant jests. But to keep the mean, that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace, so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly, at all adventures, or uncomely, which is no common virtue. I do speak this by reason of these present Dialogues, out of which a man may so gather good instruction, and yet notwithstanding he shall have occasion to laugh. For the matter of itself is very pleasant: And is set out with such grace, that it cannot be but that a man shall take great pleasure in the reading thereof. Our brother and companion in the work of the Lord jesus, Peter Viret, who is the Author, hath by nature the virtue which I said to be requisite in that man which will meddle himself therein. It is virtue true that as in all other works he giveth himself, unto a better study and of greater weight: So in these Dialogues his principal intent is not to delight the ears. And in very deed, that should be but a small labour, and a pain evil be stowed of a man of such wit and knowledge. Furthermore, besides the gifts that he hath of God, he is called unto a more higher calling. But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreat off, showeth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merry jests, he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine, as the true mark to shoot at, mingling with the same, some merry conceits as a companion therewith all. Yea in such sort that this book is a suffient witness, that be hath a singular dextentie to do it, yea even as much as he will himself: that is to say, as much as is needful or convenient. I do know that it is a dangerous thing and that no man aught at the first sight to allow a book. But I fear not to have any rebuke of good men, & of such as are of sound judgement, to have commended the reading of that book, as a book in which the time shallbe well bestowed. I need not to bring witness, nor to speak among those which know the man, This only knowledge will suffice for to assure them that they cannot say●e to stay themselves upon it. But because that it may be that some for want of advertisement, will make none account, to prove what it is: I have partly testified what it is, for to give encouragement unto those which will believe me, & to stir them forward to see them, until such time as they may judge of themselves. Not that I do presume so much as to attribute unto myself the judgement above the works of others, for to pronounce them as for authority: or to bring all the Readers unto mine opinion or advise. Yet nevertheless because that I think and am altogether persuaded, that many will not refuse to stay and content themselves to that, that I affirm unto them: I am constrained for the profit of them to speak my mind. Although it is not now needful to set forth at large all the profit that may be gathered, and the pleasure that may be taken therein. This only I can certify, that all those which shall have the patience to continue the reading over it, will not repent themselves to be so well occupied. There is one only point, which I know, which might diminish the grace of the book towards some men: That is, that it should seem good that the matters of the Christia●tie aught to be entreated off with a gravity correspondent to their dignity and worthiness. And therefore it is not meet to mingle them with matters of mirth, considering that there is danger, that in so doing we should turn them into laughing. Chiefly at this present time, in which impiety overfloweth more than ever sithence the beginning of the Christian Church: Or at the lest wise, it is more openly uncovered. To the end that none for being prevented with that reason, be not out of taste with the reading. It is to be noted, that one may dispute of the matters of the Christianity two ways: First in rebuking the foolish superstitions, which are risen among the Christians under colour of Religion, the which notwithstanding are not but corruptions of the same, for to destroy and overthrow it. Secondly, in declaring the simple and pure verity according as it is revealed unto us of GOD by his holy word. As touching the second kind, it is most certain that assoon as we have opened our mouths for to speak of GOD, no merry conceit or jest aught to enter in our matter: But we aught in all that we say and speak, declare what reverence we do bear unto his Majesty, not pronouncing one word but in fear and humility. But in disiphering and disclosing the superstitions & follies with which the poor world hath been blinded in before time, he could not choose in speaking of matters so ridiculous but to laugh with open mouth. It is most true that there is also good occasion to weep and lament: Forasmuch as it is not a sport or jest that the glory of GOD, and his eternal verity, having been so darkened, the which aught to be had in us in a singular recommendation, hath been so abolished thorough infinite lies: that so many poor souls have been led of Satan into ruin and damnation. But the one must not let the other, that 〈◊〉 and taking such sorrow as we aught to have, to bring us again in remembrance, how God hath been so blasphemed: having also pity and compassion of the calamity wherein the world hath been so long time, and is yet at this present. Yet nevertheless in rehearsing of such foolish dreams and fond babbles, we use such mocketies as they do merit and deserve. When we do so, it shallbe after the example of the Prophets: who interpreting of the pure verity of God, do speak with a majesty, which aught to make all the world to tremble: But in blaming the dreams of the Idolaters do make it no doubt to use scoffing and laughing, for to declare how ridiculous they are. Although the Prophets are one & we an other. For as much as we speak not in the name of God as they, to the end that all that which we pronounce should be received as a revelation come from Heaven: It is lawful for us to use a base stile. But I have alleged this comparison only for to declare, that it is not to give any occasion unto the Luci anists and Epicures and other contemners of God, to speak evil of the Christian religion, or to have it in disdain, when they shall mock of the corruptions of the same. Thomas Singleton to the Reader. OUR Author (gentle Reader) here, of frank and free good heart: A Chest of treasures hath unlocked, whereof thou mayst take part. With travail great he hath it brought, from far and foreign soil: Which thou, and many may enjoy, at home with easy toil. Stand back, hard hearted Heretic, here is for thee no ware: Eke stubborn Papist, go thou by, thou hast herein no share. Whom blind erroneous fancies lead, the truth that thou despise: Whom wilful and gross ignorance, hath closed up thy eyes. These rich and precious Ornaments, and jewels high of price: For Godly, Zealous, Virtuous, been, that hate both sin and vice. A mild and gentle friendly Brook, hath brought the same to shore, Then (Reader) take it thankfully, he craves of thee no more. FINIS. ¶ The Preface. IT is said in a common proverb: he which hath suffered nothing, knoweth not what evil A proverb. is. And therefore it is very hard, that he which never hath suffered any evil, can have such pity and compassion of the captives and miserable, as he which hath tried and proved great miseries and need, and which hath been exercised in them, and hath abidden many adversities and troubles. For he that knoweth not what poverty is, doth not much think upon the necessities of the poor, nor he cannot so well know in what languer and misery they do live. When the rich man hath his feet well shod, and that he is well cladded and pompeously appareled, he sitteth at the table, he hath of delicate meat great abundance, amongst which he banketeth and maketh great cheer, he thinketh not much upon Lazarus, who lieth at his gate full of botches and sores, naked, Luc. 16. l. 20. and having no nourishment. He doth not greatly pass whether he be shod or unshod, naked or clad, whether he be cold or warm, whether he have meat & drink or not. Sigh that he is at his ease, all others are so, and he careth not for them. Wherefore I doubt not but that the Lord will s●nde many adversities and afflictions unto his servants in this world, and that he will try them The cause of the temptation to the elect. so many ways, that every day we shall feel and prove them, to that end, that they having proved in themselves the poorness and miseries that others may suffer, they do learn the better how to bear it, and to have more greater pity and compassion, and to be the readier to aid and secure them. And without seeking to far the examples of the patriarchs and Prophets: As Abraham Isaac, jacob, joseph, Moses, David, and other like, which have been tried with so many tribulations. Let us only consider how the Lord jesus Christ would make his two Apostles, Saint Peter and Saint Paul to humble themselves before that he did commit his Church unto them, and after that, they had the charge given them. He Heb. 4. d. 15. which was in all points tempted, like as we are: but yet without sin, to the end that we should not doubt, but that he knoweth our infirmities, and that he can have compassion of them, hath suffered Peter to fall, that The fall of Peter. Mat. 26. g. 25. Luc 22. l. 60 by his fall, he may learn to know himself, and the nature of all other poor sinners environed with man's infirmity, for to comfort and confirm them, after that he shall arise again. Also he suffered Saul to err a long The error of Saul. Act. 7. 8. 9 time, before he called him to the light of the Gospel, & to bring him in that right way, to the end that after that he should depart from the dark clouds of ignorance, should have more greater pity and compassion of the poor blind and ignorant, and that he should not despair incontinent of the health and salvation of the rebels and persecutors. Also we cannot deny, that there is any man living upon the earth, but that he hath been plunged over The darkness of the world. Exo. 10. l. 22. the head in the darkness of error and ignorance, the which were more thicker upon all the land, than ever they were in Egypt. And would to GOD, that those which are yet covered in Egypt, may at the lest wise feel and perceive as the Egyptians did there's, and that they would desire with such affection to be delivered. But this is the mischief that the Egyptians which are at this present time cannot acknowledge what they are, The Egyptians at this present time. but would be taken and accounted for the true Israelites. And notwithstanding that they have the darkness palpable among them, yet they glory and brag themselves of the light, and do promise' it unto others, by the which they shall have need to he illuminated themselves. Wherefore so much the more aught we to have that greater compassion on them, as they have the less knowledge of the evil & danger wherein they are. Those then unto whom the Lord hath opened their eyes, and that he hath brought them from the tenebrous Egypt, all true Israelites which are in the land of Gosan, being separated from those horrible darkness, aught to travail with Moses that good servant of God, not only to draw the Israelites out of the land of Egypt, but also if it be possible to convert the Egyptians into Israelits, praying the LORD to drive away all darkness, by the light of his word, and the clearness of his coming. For if we will not lie against our own conscience, who can deny but that all the world is a very Egypt, and all the Christianity a very Babylon, full of all confusion? For he that will well ponder and Egypt and Babylon. mark the language that the Christians do speak, & the diversities of opinions which are among them, but that he shall be constrained to say, that Babylon is not Babylon, in comparison of this. The one says white, the other bcack. That which the one calleth day, one other calleth it night. That which is the light unto the one, is darkness to the other. That which the one finds sweet, the other iudgeeth it sour. That which is jesus Christ, truth, and Paradise to the one, is Antichrist, lying and hell to the other. What is then to be done in this great variety and contrariety of opinions? What aught the poor ignorant people think of it? In what trouble and perplexity aught their poor consciences to be in, when they see the one to deny that which an other affirmeth? What opinion aught they rather follow? and of what side can their poor consciences find most rest? It is most certain, that there is but one verity, & that in such variety and contrariety of opinions and One only verity. sentences, there cannot be but one true, and it may well he that they are all false, if man follow any other guide, than God's only verity. What then is he that is of so sure a judgement, which can surely judge what is the best, the most certayntest and infallible verity? There is none which can better judge of the Art, than the workman: of a matter, than he which hath some knowledge and experience. If we will then find any rest in our consciences, and obtain and get a good judgement, for to discern in that diversity of doctrine, what is the best and most certeintest, and what is the truth that declareth all the other The means for to find out the truth. to be lyings, we must give ourselves to the means by which we may attain thereunto. But it is hard to find, for it must be searched for out of all creatures, and yet nevertheless by the creatures. And therefore forasmuch as the thing seemeth to be hard, and that I see many poor consciences very much troubled and almost in despair, not knowing on which side to turn themselves, so much is the thing more worthy of pity and compassion. And for because that I myself have been long enough sick in that same bed, and have experimented and proved how dangerous that evilt is, and what dolour and torment it bringeth unto the man that fears God, and which is afraid to offend him, for that cause am I the more moved to aid and secure those which are yet held fast in the same, and which cannot in the end find remedy. Not that I dare of 〈◊〉 self to promise' any great thing, sith that I am nothings but forasmuch as the common proverb giveth unto Proverb. The fool counseleth the wise me boldness, which saith: The fool counseleth the wise. To promise' remedy unto a disease so hard and incurable, I dare not of myself, and I will not do as the Sape etiam est holitor valde opportuna locutus. venturous and hardy Empirics do, which promise help unto all diseases, how incurable so ever they he: and those which are most ignorant, do most assure it. But I dare promise to declare, that the disease is not so hard to be cured as it is dangerous, if one provide not remedy in time, and without delaying the means whilst it is possible: And that the difficultness that is in it do not proceed but of us, which have the remedy in our hands, if we know how to use it. And although that I nor no man that is in the world, cannot, of himself remedy it, yet nevertheless I trust through the help and aid of him which hath it in his power, and which doth comfort those whom it pleaseth him, that I will declare and show unto those which have need, some redress to attain unto it. For although that I know not very much, and have not seen much, yet nevertheless I can not deny but that the Lord, who through his grace and mercy hath drawn me from those troubles and anguishes, and from darkness, unto the knowledge of the truth, hath also made me prove many things, of which I may help my poor brethren, whom I can not despise without doing unto them injury and wrong, and to show that I have forgotten the estate in which I have been, and that I am unthankful towards God's liberality and goodness, who immediately from my youth, being yet at the schools, hath drawn me from that labarinth of error, before that I was to much plunged in that babylon Antichrist, and received the mark of the beast. Nevertheless notwithstanding that it hath pleased God, that that carecter and mark was not printed in my forehead (to the which yet nevertheless A. prepared myself, thinking that it was the right way of salvation, if the Lord had not had pity and compassion, on me, who called me unto a better vocation) yet I cannot therefore deny, but that I have been sufficiently plunged and very deep in that whore of Babylon, aswell as others. Although I have not been none of the governors and chiefest Eurgesses and Citizens of the same, yet I have been of the meaner sort & prepared for to bring forth the fruits of confusion, as the others did, and so much the more that by Nature I was more given unto religion, the which yet nevertheless I knew not, following in steed thereof all superstition. Wherefore, sithence that the Lord hath taken me out, I can not yet forget those that are detained and kept therein. And in remembering and considering the train of the new Babylon, it maketh me so remember a law and custom that The law of the babylonians for the diseased, Herodo, It. 1. the ancient babylonians had, the which is not altogether to be despised nor unworthy to be remembered. Before that Physic was yet brought into any perfect Aite, and that there was not cunning Physicians for to practise it, they did set down a law, by which they ordained, that those which did begin to be sick and diseased, aught to go unto those, which sometime have been sick with the same disease, for to have their advice & counsel, and for to learn by them the remedy which they used, if they had proved any good, and which were well to be found. And to the end that that law should be the better kept, they used to bring those that were sick and diseased unto the streets and open places: and those which sometime had been sick, were bound by the law to visit them, and to teach unto every one of them the remedy by the which they were healed. If then the babylonians were so careful of the sick and diseased: let us think what reproach we shall have of God, if after that he hath made us feel his grace, and hath given unto us the remedy, not only against all the diseases both of body and soul, but also against the corporal and spiritual death, we have no pity and compassion on our brethren which are yet in the bed of death, and if we do not show unto them the remedy that we have learned of GOD, and that we do not bring them unto the high and sovereign Physician JESUS CHRIST? His law and commandment aught more to urge us then that of the babylonians. If he willed and commanded that he that shall find the Ore or the Ass of his neighbour going astray, yea of his enemy, to bring them to him again: or Bxo. 23. 〈◊〉 if he be fallen into a dyke, or sink under his burden to help him out and up again, do we think that he hath not yet more care of man then of a beast? of the soul more than of the body. Doth he not give us sufficiently to understand by that commandment, in what recommendation we aught to have our neighbours, and what care we aught to take of their souls and health, sith that he bindeth us by his commandment to take the care and charge of his Ass? I then considering the great darkness, abuses, and errors, which have occupied and filled all the Christianity, seeing so many scrupulous, doubtful and troubled consciences, and so many diseases, of which every street, place and all the world is full, would not despise them, without teaching them some remedy, for to comfort them, at the lest a little, if I cannot do much, chief for that I have been required of many good men which do fear God. It is very true, that one shall find men enough, which will promise' remedies for such diseases, but he shall not find many which have well proved and tried that which they teach unto others. For many men sometime will meddle or take upon them to heal others, which have more need of a medicine, than those unto whom they would give it, and there are more Physicians than diseases. And although I will not glory nor boast myself to be very able and cunning in that matter, yet nevertheless I will not hide that little talon which the LORD hath given unto me. I am not ignorant, but that the Lord hath raised up in these our days, learned men which have already very well declared and opened those obscure and dark places, of which so many poor consciences are troubled, after whom I am not worthy to carry their books, but do esteem it a great benefit of GOD to have been their disciple and scholar, and by their means to have understanded GOD'S truth, although that many books have been already made and set forth in our country by divers learned, for to discover the abuses, and for to put again the word of GOD in his honour, according as our Saviour JESUS CHRIST instituted it. Nevertheless, I have yet thought that my little labour shall not be altogether vain and unprofitable towards a great many of my brethren and countrymen, especially towards some, for many causes. First, because that the most part of those which have written of divinity, have heterto written in the Latin tongue, the which is not to be understood Latin books. of all men, and especially of the poor ignorant people, which have more need of plain doctr●e and consolation. Wherefore it is good that such matters which do touch and concern our health and salvation be manifested and set forth in all languages, to the end that those which do not understand the one, may be instructed by the other. For it is all one what language one speaketh unto us, so that we understand him, and that we may be well instructed in the will of God, and in all things All languages good to God. necessary unto our salvation. For God regardeth not the languages, but only the thing to which all languages aught to serve. Then even as those who do write in a language which is most common to every Nation, and by which they may instruct and teach, not only those of their country, but also of strange countries, are worthy of great praise: So I do judge them worthy to be blamed, and not worthy to be accounted for christian men, to occupy themselves so much to teach the most wisest and best learned, and those which are so far separated from us, and that the poor ignorant, and those of the house should he despised, and should feel nor receive any fruit. One might rightly rebuke and check us: Physician heal thyself: And that we do not follow the example of jesus Christ and his Prophets and Apostles, who have Luc. 4. d. 23. always taught those with whom they had to do, in a language that they could best understand. For that cause was given unto the Apostles the gift of tongues, for to preach unto all people and Nations, knowing The gift of tongues. Act 2. 2. 1. that the language aught to serve to the matter, and not the matter to the language. Wherefore considering that some men do writ in Hebrew, some in Greek, some in Latin, others in Almaigne and in Flemish, others in Italian and Spanish, I have also written in a language, with which I am best acquainted and have most familiarity, French books according to my birth and nativity: Although that the matters that I entreat off, should have a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue, and should be unto me more advantage. For oftentimes, I have the matter ready, that I need not but to writ them out of good Authors, where I need not to travail to translate the things in French the which is very hard and impossible, especially unto me to set them out with such grace, and to interpret them so natively as they sound in their natural language, Hebrew, Greek, or Latin. For although I be a poor Orator in Latin, I am not much better in French. Wherefore although I do not speak the language of Attica, nor well beautified & like a Retrition, but that it happeneth oftentimes that I do fall into my rude speech: Or if I wander astray in France, and that I come again into the country, I do think that the favourable Reader will well bear with such faults, and especially in the rhymes and French verses, which sometime I mingle in these Dialogues, following the example of the good Authors, which have willingly kept this custom, to translate into verse, after their own language, that which they allege of the Poets, which have written it in an other language: The which I have done sometime, because that I put in the margentes those Authors, by the which I help myself, for to discover and unhide better the abuses and superstitions, to the end that some men should not think that I speak of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce, and without just occasion. If there be in my verses but little rhyme, it sufficeth me so that it have some reason. For I do not make profession of Poetry: & it sufficeth me to turn them grossly or plainly: Besides that, that I am an evil Orator, yet I am a worse Poet. Yet nevertheless I am fully certified that so many good minds and wits as France bringeth up very able and expert, both in Poetry and French prose, shall have none occasion to envy me, nor to rebuke or find fault with my Poetry. For they may very well judge that I pretend not by my verses to have the crown of Bay, and that I will not take from them their Science and name. Also I hope that those unto whom GOD hath given more gifts and grace to speak, will consider to bear with my rude style, as the Athenians, who were the cummingest in all Greece, both in doctrine and in language, have not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher, Anacharsis, Anacharsis. notwithstanding that he was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation. They must also consider which know the greatness of the country wherein I am, I have sometimes used expressly some words which shall not be received of those which sludye in the fineness of the French tongue, but I do the same, for to condescend to the rudeness and capacity of the most ignorant which better understand those words taken from their language, than others that are more fine and eloquent. Furthermore, although that there are many good men which have already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue with more haughty style and more eloquent than I can, and of a more deeper and profound knowledge. Yet nevertheless I do not think, that those which know that Christian simplicity and modesty is, will neither despise my language nor my doctrine, but that they will take it all Amos. 7. d. 13. in good part, considering that if Amos which was a shepherd, and many other Prophets of base condition, have not used so high a style, nor have spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet David, or David. Esay. that great Orator Esay, of the royal lineage and brought up in the court, they have not therefore left off to be Prophets and to speak through God's spirit, and to profit very much in his Church, whose style they have used. And although that the Euangelisles and The Apostolical eloquence and humane ●loqūence. Apostles have not written in such pomp of words, nor have not so much travailed after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero, yet we cannot deny but that they have more profited to all mankind, by their ●ude stile, than the others, by all their pomp of human eloquence without any comparison. But if we consider Gods works, we shall know that the holy Ghost, although that he do not reject the eloquence, which is one of his gifts, yet nevertheless he delighteth himself more in the simplicity of language, for to declare better his virtue and efficacy, to the end that we do not attribute unto human eloquence that which appertaineth unto him. I speak this because of some delicate mo●thes, and curious of language, which regard not but the stile and Curious men of speeches. the manner & phrase of speaking, without considering the sentence, and that that one speaketh, as though men do writ for the tongue, and for to learn only, for to jangle and prattle as the Pies and jays, not rather for to instruct the spirit, soul and the conscience. They regard but the flowers, and care not for the fruit: And which is worse, one shall find them of such corrupt judgements, that they prefer the painted flowers, before those that grow naturally, thinckeing to beautify their language, and to enrich the French tongue. GOD knoweth what a cutting and mangling they make, and how they mangle the Latin, so that they do Manglers of Latin. speak neither Latin nor French. But desiring to avoid and not to use all that which they think to be common, to the end they might be esteemed the greater Orators, do forge and invent a new language, and do despise the good French words, for to steal away those from strange tongues. That curiosity and affection of language, is the cause that many delight rather to read books, full of scoffinges, fables, lies, and of blasphemies, than those of divinity, or of some good divines and holy men. And this vice is not only in the French tongue, but also in that Latin. For there are some which have so great fear to defile their golden tongue, and to imbrue These which do avoid the reading of dinine books. their goodly stile with the simplicity & baseness of the Prophetical and Apostolical language, that they had rather to defile their souls, understandings and spirits, in foolish curious books, or in the writings of the paynim and Idolaters, then to read in the holy Scriptures the which they dare not touch: Or if they desire some Proverb. Velut Canis? Nilo. time to drink of it, that is as the dog doth at the flood Nilus. They do but suck in the water hastily, as though they were afraid to touch it, and that there were in it Crocodiles. They will touch it as a Cat doth hot coals. I do not condemn the reading of good Authors and of Poets, Orators and Philosophers the which may serve us to the glory of God, if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion. But I can not allow, but greatly condemn those which altogether give themselves unto such Authors, or to others a great deal worse, and make none account of the holy Bible and divine books to which all other Sciences and disciplines aught to serve, and to which they aught to be preferred. Shall we not judge him a fool & All Arts and disciplines the handmaids of holy books. out of his wit, which will always stay in his Grammar, and in the principles and rules of the same, and despise the study of other liberal Arts, and of Philosophy, and will in no wise meddle with them, nor exercise himself in speaking nor yet in writing, fearing to forget and loose those rules and grounds of Grammar? Who will not judge such a man to be mad, sith that the Grammar, yea, the Rhetoric, (whatsoever praise that Cicero giveth unto it.) And the Logic also, are not but as handmaidens and servants unto other disciplines, the which men do learn for to serve unto them? We do now mock the barbarous school masters which we have had, which could read unto us Doctrinal of Alexander. but doctrinal of Alexander, and do hold us therein all our life time, without letting us at any time taste any good Author, insomuch that one shall never have done, but the thing is always to begin again. Those some unto me not to differ much from them. For notwithstanding that they do read better Authors, and that they do exercise themselves to speak and write better. Yet Nevertheless I esteem not all that which they do, no more than the Grammar of Alexander, or as Grecismus and Roiolis, and the Logic of Tartaret, and of other Sophisters, except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glory of GOD, and if they mind it unto any other mark or end. For otherwise whereto shall all their Eloquence without the fear of God. science and eloquence serve, but to the paynim and people without God? the which is more hurtful and dangerous, then profitable to the common wealth, in him which hath not the fear of God, and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine. And when they have studied all their life time to beautify and 〈◊〉 forth their language, I think yet nevertheless that a man shall not find many among them, which can come unto such perfection, by the which they may approach so near unto Gicero, as that seditious Catiline, who was very eloquent. Cleero and Gariline. But when they do surmount Demosthenes, may not we rightly ●ay that of them which Eschines hath said of him, comparing him unto a flute, which hath but the beak of bill, Eschines and Demostlienes. the which is unprofitable, after that the neck is cut off? What is there also in these here, but the tongue? The which oftentimes hurteth many, and profiteth few. Is not a poor labourer which knoweth his God, and jesus Christ his Saviour, and which confesseth him in his rude The true science and eloquence. language, and which honoureth him through his good life and conversation, to be preferred before all these great Poets, Orators, and Philosophers, who are altogether ignorant, and which do serve but the flesh, the world, and Satan Prince of the same? Are not they great Asses and beasts in comparison of him, and yet worse? For the Ox knoweth his Lord, and an Ass his Master's stall, as saith the Prophet, the which those here, which will be Esa. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 3. counted for true Israelits, God's people, and Christians, will not acknowledge nor serve him, doing unto him so much honour, as the Ox & the Ass do unto their Masters. How dare they esteem themselves wise, being ignorant of the knowledge of God, the which only is the true knowledge, for to bring us unto everlasting blessedness, in comparison of which all other which are called sciences, are but men's opinions, errors, and lyings, except they john. 17. 23 have this for a guide. It is very hard to find for such men medicives proper to heal them, and meat for to make them have an appetite, sith that they are so far out of taste with the bread of life, and the heavenly Manna, Out of east of the bread of life. to the which they prefer the garlic, onions, the flesh and fish of Egypt. For he that shall give them such meat as they desire, shall but increase their grief the greater. And if the meat be not as they would have it, they will not taste of it. Wherefore I leave such to be handled of those which have more cunning than I, and which can better help their disease. There are others which differ but a little from these here, and which care not so much of the language, but they have yet a great vice common with the first: that is, that they delight not in reading any good matter, grave, and which toucheth God's word, and the health of their souls, but Curious readers of foolish books. unto worldly things delectable to the flesh, pernicious and hurtful to the spirit and conscience. And therefore, although that many good men have written in French very learnedly and in a good language, touching the matters of our Religion, yet nevertheless that sort of people cannot apply themselves to read those good books, and can take no taste of them, because that their mouth is not fit for such meat, and that they are to precious for them. For the ●doriseraunt and sweet flowers The sweet smellings unto hogs. smell not so sweet in the hogs noses, as the mire and dirt. For that cause such carnal men take more pleasure and delight in the books that speak their language. But the thing is more detestable to women which delight to read ●ookes of bawdry and whoredom. Vile and filthy books. For they understand them the better because they are of the earth: and do speak of earthly matters, and cannot comprehend the celestial language, because it is not natural unto them. Now such books as they desire are not wanting unto them. For there are enough of fools babbles throughout the worlie, which fools babbles. do serve but for seoffing and testing, and which have no other care, and apply their study but to please men, and to nourish their vain curiosity, loving better to speak pleasant things, then salutary, and to delight the flesh and the ears, more than to edify the conscience. Yet this was one of the causes which moved me to writ and proceed after an other manner, than those which have written before me. For I consider that many do leave off to read them, not only Good books despised & forbidden. because it is forbidden in many countries, kingdoms, and Segmories, to read good books which speak of GOD, suffering yet nevertheless the others, which do induce but to dishonour and blasphemy. But also because, that although that it be permitted unto many to read them, yet nevertheless they do make none accounted of them, because that either they seem unto them very obscure and so weighty that they cannot well understand them: or the time to long, and take no pleasure to read books which have not some merry conceits and delights, for to make them pastime. For they are yet to carnal, and find no pastime in those books which speak but of GOD, and of the health of the Soul, if there be nothing for the flesh, the which they would only keep. There is no doubt, but that malady or disease is very perilous, and that such vicious and corrupt Natures, do very much displease GOD, sith that they have so little reverence of him, and his word, and that they prefer the poison before the good meat. Nevertheless because that amongst such one may yet find some which are not altogether perverse and malicious, but that they have yet some seed of the fear of the LORD in them, me thinks that we must not altogether despair and abanoon them, as sick folk that are incurable, but that we must yet prove to win them if it be possible, and to transfigure and change them into all forms and shapes, for to induce them to read the holy Scriptures, and to give unto them some taste. For if we can convert into good uses the means, by the which the Devil giveth himself to draw away man from the word of God, and to rob him altogether, and hold him in the vanities of this world, and may use them as a bait on a hook for to draw them from such vanities, and to incitate and provoke them to the study of the truth, me thinketh that we do nothing unworthy of the office of a Christian man. For even as the holy Apostle hath been made all unto all men, and doth apply and give himself unto every one, in all The Christian all to all men. 1. Cot. 9 c. 20. that which was possible for him, without being against the will of God, making himself a jew unto the jews and a Gentle unto the Gentiles. So me thinketh that by good right, I may do the like, so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modesty and the honour and reverence that the Christian oweth unto the word of God. For if the bawds of Satan endeavour themselves through fair and goodly delights and merry conceits to destroy the poor and silly soults, the espowses of jesus, and to draw them away from him, for to make them serve him and to forsake their master: shall it not be lawful for us to use an other practice and cunning for to let there's, for to discover and unhide their filthiness, for to make them appear to be abomination to all the world, and to retire and draw back the souls from his stews, for to join them again with jesus Christ their Saviour? If a paysoner do cover and hide his poison with some delicate meat, for to poison and murder men, shall it not be by more just reason peruntted to a Phisi●ion to mingle sugar and honey among the wormwood and the bitter Aleos: for to sweeten a little the bitterness of these drinckes? Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth, are yet nevertheless healthful to the boot. For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Physicians Holy deceits. of the body, wherefore shall it be despised to the Physicians of the souls? I would to GOD that he had given unto us the grace to deceive so all the world for his profit and health. For the diseased is happy, which is deceived by the Physician to his health and healing: which is the end to the which both the one and the other do pretend, both the Physician and the diseased. I know Book discovering the abuses very well that there be already many books written, which do much discover abuses, and which do sufficiently mock the vain ceremonies, idolatries, and superstitions, which are among the Christians, but that sufficeth not, except one do teach what is the verity, and what is a firm and sound doctrine. The which many have already done, but because they seem and appear too severe and grave unto those with whom we have chief to do, they read them not, and do profit nothing. There are others, which have followed a manner to writ altogether contrary unto those. For even as those have regard to none other thing, but to entreat of the word of God with all gravity, modesty, and reverence, adressinge their writings unto people of good judgements and of temperate senses, and full of the fear of GOD: These here unto the contrary, have not taken their sight but to the white and mark of man's vanity and curiosity, and have purposed to absteme themselves from all weighty, honest and holy matters, and to writ only of follies, merry conceits, jests, plays, and pastimes, as of fools, morishdauncers, scoffers and jesters. And if they would hold themselves within those limits, they were the more tolerable: But many are not content to play the fools The office of fools and scoffers. amongst men (although that that office is scant meet unto an honest man) do yet worse. For they give themselves but to scurrility, and do think that they cannot sufficiently enough delight men except their device be altogether full of ruffenly talk and bawdry, of villainies Vile and 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. and blasphemies, not only intolerable to the Christians, but which should be judged worthy of grievous punishments amongst the jews, Turks, paynim, and Infidels. For if the Gentiles and paynim have not taken and accounted for honest men, and worthy to be advanced into any honourable office in a common wealth, the Morishdauncers, Maskers, jugglers, Players, Mummers, and jesters, what honour is that unto Princes and unto Christian people to take delight, not only in such men with their books, but in others a great deal more detestable, and more ruder in all filthy and vile words, as the ruffians of the stews, and deniers of God. Do we think that jesus Christ hath said An idle word. Mat. 12. c. 35. without a cause, that for every idle word that men shall speak, they must tender account at the day of judgement? Sigh that the truth, which lieth not telleth us the same so clearly, and doth menace and threaten that we must tender an account for every idle word: that is to say, which is vain and unprofitable, which serveth nothing at all to the glory of GOD, nor to any edifying of our neighbour: Do we think that our ribald and bawdy talk, backebitings, evil speakings, unadvised, slanderous and infamous words which do serve to none other end but to pervert the understandings of men, to add or heap evil upon evil, to cast oil into the fire, and to bring towe the better to inflame man's conscience unto all wickedness and abomination, and unto the which it is already too much inclined: Do we think that such languages shall not come to an account, and that they shall not be a reproach unto us and brought before our eyes at the judgement of GOD? Were it not better for us to follow the admonition which the holy Apostle taught us saying: Let your speech be always well savoured Coll. 4. a 6 The language of the Christians. Ephe. 4. f. 29. and powdered with salt, that ye may knew how to answer every man. Let no filthy communication proceed out of your mouths: but that which is good to edify withal, when need is: that it may have favour with the hearers. And grieve not the holy spirit of GOD, by whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let not Ephe. 5. 2 3 fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness be once named among you as it becomneth Saints: neither filthiness, neither foolish talking, neither jesting which are not comely: but rather giving of thanks. Behold the lesson which the Doctor of the Gentiles giveth unto the Christians, for to learn them how they aught to speak: the which many have very evil studied and kept. For by their words and writings, they profit to none other end, but to infect and poison the souls, and to hinder a great many of good spirits to read better books, and more profitable for their health and salvation. For man cannot be idle, and except that he did find foolish and wicked books for to apply therein his study, he should be constrained to seek better and to occupy therein altogether his mind, without any detraction unto unprofitable things. I know very well that one may upon this reply, that such men in playing and jesting do discover the abuses of the world: But it is better not to remove and discover them, then to discover and blow them abroad after such a sort. For by that manner of doing, they may rather make of a To show forth lying without the truth. superstitious and an hypocrite, a man without GOD and without Religion, than a good religious and holy man. For notwithstanding that they do show forth the folly of men, and that which aught not to be, yet nevertheless they show not that which aught to be, and what is the true wisdom and the remedy for to redress such diseases. It is very easy to mock and scoff at lyings, and to show that which is not, but it sufficeth not, ercept one do show the truth, and what it is. It sufficeth not to know Antechriste, except we know jesus Christ. That is to teach after the manner as Cicero desputed of the Nature of the Gods, the which is more proper, Disentations of 〈◊〉. for to show that which is not God, than who is God. Such manner of doing bringeth no resolution to the conscience, but leaveth it always in doubt and error. And although those shall do no worse, yet that shallbe some thing, and they shall not altogether loose their time, for that they have incitated and pricked men forward, and put a desire in them, to inquire of the truth, for to know it. For that is no little profit nor no little advantage, that they have already brought it to that point. But these here of whom I do speak, do not follow the stile, I say not, of some good divine, nor only of some good Panim Philosopher, but do seem that they are altogether given to the imitation of Lusian, a man without God and Lusian and Lustanistes. without Religion, a mocker and despiser of God and men. If it be a matter to pastime, to laugh, play, and jest at the superstitions and idolatries, of to devout men, caphardes and hypocrites, and of all the estates of the world, we need not search for none other Author, and we have no need of these new Lusianistes, which are but as his little Disciples, for to carry his book after him. For if we must make comparison of the language, they approach nothing near to his eloquence. If we must compare the spirit and the knowledge, there is as much difference as is between the apprentice and the Master. Wherefore if the writings of Lusian and the matters that be entreated off, were very profitable and necessary unto those which could not read them in the Greek tongue, or being translated into the Latin tongue. I would counsel rather his Disciples to travail and employ their eloquence to translate them in the French tongue, then to forge and invent for us new Lusians, which do but steal from him his inventions and arguments, for to attribute them unto themselves, as if they had been the first Authors and inu●utours. For how wicked so ever he hath been, and enemy to GOD and all Religion, yet we cannot dame but that he was a wise man, a great orator and a Philosopher, and that he hath written many good things, & a great deal better than those do here, of which the faithful man may well profit, so that he read them after an other spirit & intention than he hath written them, & that he do know to try the gold from the midst of the dross, & to separate the poison, from the good meat, but those whom I rebuke, do teach nothing which can serve to the honour and glory of God, nor unto good manners, nor to the edification of the congregation, nor to civility, nor to the knowledge of natural, humane, nor divine things, but to play the fool, and to jest with all the world, and to moeke and despise aswell the true Christian religion, as the superstitions and abominations of Antichrist. For if they would speak one honest word, it must be accompanied with fifty unhonest words. If they do set forth the truth, it must be that it be always environed with a thousand infamies and slanders, as of Damoisels and body keepers, for to hide, defend, & countergard that it be not taken uncovered. How much can that manner of writing & speaking profit? For the prayer of the truth is simple, & would The nature of the truth. not have such covertures and cloaks, but would walk open and uncovered▪ And if we have compassion of the civil and imperial laws, because that they being goodly in themselves, are dishonoured by the hem of those gloss & filth of Bartolus, and barbarous writers. What may we The ●ems and gloss of the laws and of the truth. say of the truth, so noble a daughter of the eternal king, accompanied with Damoisels so stinking, vile, and dissormed with so many filthiness which do mar and take from her, her beauty? And to reply that it is not sure and without danger to speak truth in any other manner, I do answer to the same, that he were ●etter to hold his peace altogether, then to preach it after such sort, and that it should be better not to give meat unto a man, then to give him poison for to kill him. Wherefore all things counted and reckenned, I know not how one can conclude any other thing of such doctrine but that the Authors thereoff do give occasion unto those which have any fear God, to accounted them for Lucianistes. And unto those which have nothing, or a very little, to pull them away altogether, and to make them recule & go back from the truth more than they were: As daily we see it by experience in young children, merchants, gentlemen, damoisels, and courtiers, who after that they have tasted of such books, are clean out of taste, & cannot away with all other, which are not like unto them. Wherefore I would gladly counsel such men of so good a mind and spirit, which give themselves to make such books, and I desire and pray them in the name of jesus Christ, and so much as they love his honour and there's, to apply that goodly wit and understanding which GOD hath given unto them, and that rhetoric and gift of eloquence, wherewith they are endued, into some better study, & matter more profitable, to the end they be not rebuked and blamed to have abused the gift of God against his honour and glory. For that cause I have purposed to writ after a sort, which peradventure will seem very evilly to agree with a Theologian, to wit, unto one which will speak of divine letters: But I think that when men shall understand my reasons, they will take my advice and deliberation in good part, and I will leave unto none any just occasion to accuse and rebuke me in that I rebuke others, except that men love rather to serve to their affections and to use slanders, then to judge of things according to truth and equity. I have already touched some reasons which have induced me to do that, besides yet I will add too many others. The first is, that I would assay to make those learn by my example which have a better wit than I, to do that which I myself cannot: the which thing aught not to seem to strange. For a whetstone & a wheel do sharpen well the Iron, and maketh it to cut, and yet nevertheless it is not sharp nor cutteth of itself: And at the lest wise I endeavour myself to show unto those good wits and spirits, which delight themselves in pleasant things, and which occupy themselves to such vanities, and matters in the which they may exercise their understanding and eloquence, more to their honour before GOD and good people, and to more greater profit than they do, if they will not apply themselves unto matters to high and weighty, as many have done, as well among the old as the new. And if I myself cannot do that which I would teach unto others, at the least wise I will serve them in steed of a pattern, wherein they may find some thing for to follow: Or at the least wise, the fault that they shall find in my manner of proceeding, will admonish them of the vices that they aught to avoid in their writings, the which if they find in my stile, or in my invention, or disposition, I am sure that they shall not find in the sentence and substance of the matters, any thing unworthy for a Christian man. For whatsoever thing that it be, I believe that one shall find nothing which may induce to heresy, except those who of themselves do pretend thereunto, and who as the Spiders do draw the venom from all places, and heresies out of the holy Scriptures, which are given unto us to keep us from all heresy. Although that I do The manner to mock to God's glory. mock and jest at the abuses, errors, heresies, superstitions and idolatries of the Church of Antechriste. Yet nevertheless whosoever shall well mark and consider the matter, and shall have patience to read all the tenor of the sentence and of the Argument unto the end, except he be of a perverse judgement, shall be constrained and compelled to acknowledge and confess that I do not mock or scorn of things which are worthy, not only of mockery, but also of hatred and abomination of all mankind: And that I do not only uncover the abuses without showing by and by the true use of the things: nor I do not condemn the errors and the lyings, without shewing the truth that we must follow, and wherein the faithful aught to stay themselves: And I do not manifest Antichrist for to avoid and to flee from him, without showing jesus Christ for to follow him. Wherefore me thinks, that those which have their ears so delicate and cannot only abide one little word Delicate ears. against the Idolatry, superstition, & the great abuses which lead all the world into ruin, are not rightful judges, but of a corrupt and perverse judgement. For what judgement is this, to hear and see the name of God, the death and passion of jesus Christ to be blasphemed daily so horribly, and not to speak a word? And to be such an unjust and sharp rebuker, and severe judge, against those who only in scoffing and jesting will admonish & rebuke such blasphemers? They do willingly suffer that such men do mock God openly, that they do blaspheme him without any shame: That they do turn upside down The lovers of man's honour, are traitors of God's honour. all Religion & the truth of jesus Christ: That they make frustrate and of none effect the virtue and efficacy of his death and passion: That they do eat up and devour his poor sheep before their eyes: That they do lead the poor souls unto perdition & eternal damnation, & do hold all the world in error & Idolatry for to destroy them altogether: And cannot we suffer that unto such mockers & blasphemers of God and of men, one should only give a little holy water of the court, and that one should sprinkle them with the lest thing of the world, only with some little word or saying, or with some pleasant word, the which can hurt no man, and which is no dishonour unto God, but serveth to discover the abuses, and to bring the mouths of the faithful out of fast, with the idolatry and superstition: and to manifest unto them the seducers, for the health of their souls. I dóe greatly marvel of those great lovers of the honour of Hypocrites, Sedusers, false Prophets, ravishers, & devourers of the poor widows, and fatherless, mockers, contemners, & blasphemers of the word of God, & have so little The honour of jesus trodden down. regard or care of the honour of God, & of jesus Christ our Lord, whom they see daily to be crucified before their eyes, and to be spurned and trodden underfoot the blood of his testament, and covenant, and yet dare not speak a word: But which is worse, they will not yet suffer that others, unto whom God hath given the means, and boldneess, should speak, and rebuke such abuses and sacrileges importable to all good Christian hearts. Me thinks that such people have no just occasion to condemn us in that behalf. For if they are too wise, and do think that such things Cuer wise. agree not with the gravity of their people, then let them leave them to be spoken of the fools, sith that as men do The privilege of Fools. say they have the privilege to speak all things. For as for my part, I would be very well contented, that God would give me the grace, that I might say unto them, as the Apostles said unto the Corinthians: You are wise and 1. Cor. 4. c. 10. we are fools for the love of Christ. If they would preach jesus Christ covert and hide, let them not be angry if we To preach jesus Christ covertly & hide. preach him all naked and openly, and him crucified. And if we cannot glory but in the foolishness of his cross, as the Apostle saith, the which yet nevertheless is the true wisdom 1. Cor. 1. c. 9 of GOD, although that the world reputeth it foolishness. For we do well perceive what profit there cometh of their so hidden preachings, of which none can almost receive any fruit, except he understand the matter that they entreat off, almost as well as they themselves. For what utility and profit can there come unto the poor 〈…〉 rant people, for whom the sermons ought to be chiefest made? do they not always continued in their errors? and are they not confirmed the more by their dark questions, and hid words? the which the hearers do draw and take for their advantage, and interpret them after their own sense and meaning, and not after the meaning of the speaker, except he do expound if plainly, or at the lest in manner that one understand not one thing for an other. For the poor people cannot understand that Sophistry, nor comprehend their dark questions and problems, who have yet much ado ●o understand that which one declareth unto them as unto little children. For if a learned man knoweth very well hue to draw out of their sermons the consequences the which they will entreat off, how many shall one find of others, which will, do clean contrary. And although there were but their stlence, by the which they do dissimule the abuses and the Idolatry, do they not approve sufficiently the false religion? I do fear very much, that one shall not find many, amongst these so wise and discreet, which are so prompt and ready to judge and condemn all those which follow not their counsel and carnal wisdom, of such an advise and opinion as Demades was, who did mock the Athenians, The counsel of Demades. Vale. Max. lib. 7 c. 2. because they did put themselves in danger, to fall into the indignation and displeasure of Alexander the great, and to lose their lands, towns, and countries, because they refused to give unto the said Alexander the divine The ambition of Alexander. honours, and to worship him as a God: unto whom Demades said. Take you good heed, lest in keeping the Heaven you do loose the earth: willing thereby to give the Athenians to understand, that they were great fools, to put themselves in such danger, for to keep the honour of the Gods: And that it were better for them to be Idolaters of men, and to honour Alexander as a GOD, then to lose both body and goods, whose counsel they followed. Wherefore Diogenes in mocking and jesting of their vanity Diogenes. and flattery, said unto them. Sigh that you have made Alexander a God, and do honour him for Bacchus, Bacchus, S●rap●s. August. de civita Dei. lib. 18. c. 5. make me also Serapis, and honour me as him. For even as Bacchus was honoured among the satires, so was Serapis honoured and worshipped in Egypt in the likeness of an O●e, and taken for the great God: of whom the law was made, that whosoever did call him a man, and did not account and take him for God, should lose his life. Wherefore almost in all the temples and churches Matrob. li. 3. c. 9 Varro de lingu●●at lib. 3. Augerona, Hars pocrates. Silence. Outd. Meta. 9 Sanctaque B●●a ●is, var●sq●●●o loribus Apis. in which Serapis was honoured and Isis in like manner, they used to hold an Image, like unto that which the Romans called. Augerona, the which some do call Harpocrates, who did hold his finger against his mouth, admonishing every one to keep silence, lest they should speak any thing against those goodly Gods, which might bring hurt unto the speakers. O would to God that we had Qulqus premit vo●●● dig●toque silentia suadet. pers digiro compose● labellum. not so many Alexanders, Serapis, and Isis, who being●nortall men, would yet nevertheless be taken and accounted as Gods among men, and that their Idols, laws, ceremonies, traditions, statutes and ordinances should be preferred defore God and his word: nor so many Harpocrates, which do not only make a sign with the finger, that those unto whom God hath given the heart to confess the truth should hold their peace, and be not dumine Images, but should know very well to rebuke those which have a better affection than they, and which do speak that which they dare not take in hand. For they will not lose the land or earth, for to keep the Heaven: and do account and take those for fools, rash and mad, which do make themselves to be persecuted, for to uphold and maintain the word of the Lord But it is greatly to be feared, that in thinking to keep the earth the which they prefer before the Heaven, they lose both Heaven and earth, as it happeneth unto many, who loved rather to follow the counsel of Demades, then that of jesus Christ, and the example of him and of his Apostles. And how do those edify, who in their secret preaching, do put always a ripe between two rotten, or rather a rotten between two ripe, disguising as much as they can God's truth, after that they have preached for the little fear that they shall have, will deny all that which they have well preached before, and will deny jesus Christ openly to the great slander of all the poor faithful people, whom they never have confessed but particularly, secretly and privily? I do not speak this for to rebuke any man of his infirmity, inconstancy, or carnal fear, by the which he which thinketh to be very hardy & constant, doth find himself overcome: But I speak only unto a company of vain and glorious fools, which do these things and worse, and yet nevertheless would fain cover and hide their faults and condemyne the poor faithful people, who hazard their life for to advance and amplify the kingdom of GOD, and which boldly and constatlye rebulie Idolatry and the abuses. Me thinks that they do The office of a Prophet. jere. 1. b. evil understand the office of the Prophet, to whom it is not only commanded of the Lord to plant and build up: but also to root out, break, off and to destroy, for to plant and build afterwards, and to cry as loud as he can, like Esa. 58. a. 1 10. though voice of a trumpet, for to show unto the people their offences, and to the house of jacob their sins. If they will say, that we which are out of danger, have goodly scoffing, let them then suffer us to do that which they would not, dare not, or cannot do. If they think that it is a matter too vile for them, and that they will not occupy themselves but about grave and weighty matters and of great importance; let them suffer us to play the children with the children, and to abase ourselves with the little one's, and to use our plain speech with the rustical, and to edify the poor ignorant, as they do edify the wise, and to uncover the errors unto those which know them not. If they be great Divines and severe Philosophers, let them account us for young Grammarians, who do but a little open and bruise the matters, and to chew unto the simple people the meat a little more smaller, for to prepare them to their school, and unto a more higher Philosophy. If they think that, we must entreat of such matters with more greater gravity & modesty, I deny not that we can entreat of the word of God with to great honour, and reverence: But I would that they had aswell the consideration, that the word of God is not so severe, but that it hath his merry conceits, sports, honest games, merry jests, & words covenable & most agreeing The manner to speak merely in the holy Scrip. to his grace & Majesty. And he that will try & prove it, let him consider how. GOD himself, and jesus Christ that great celestial Orator, doth speak sometime, either in rebuking his Disciples or the Hypocrites and reprobate: and among those which the Lord did speak, without heaping together, a great many of examples, that they would only, mark and behold what answer joas the father of Gedeon did judges. 6. f. 31. make unto the Burgesses and Citizens of the town who judges. 6. f. 31 complained to him of his son, which had pulled down and destroyed the Idol of Baal and his Altar: And the words that Ely had with the Prophets of Baal: What 3. Reg 18. e. 15. Esa. 44. b. 13. mocked did he give them? And Fsay in like manner against the babylonians and their Idols? Who yet nevertheless were both of them grave & very severe Prophets. And in the book of wisdom, and in Baruch and in the Sapien. 13. 14. 15. 36. Epistle attributed unto jeremy. I will leave off to allege the examples of so many good ancient Doctors, who in their books, and by their writings have so much jested and mocked at the superstitions and Idolatries of the Pan●ns, which had more greater reason and appearance than those against whom we do at this time fight. He that will not believe me let him read their works, chiefly of Tertulian, Eusebius, Lactantius, Augustine, Jerome, and other like, upon all those that they have written against the Pan●ns and Heretics. Wherefore then shall not that be permitted us in Dialogues, which we rebuke not in those great men, when they have spoken it in their own person, the which requireth more gravity, then if they did bring in other men speaking and disputing together, as I do in my Dialogues & disputations. For there is none of a good Licence and liberty of Dialogues. judgement, but that he understandeth very well that in the phrase of writing there is no greater liberty and licence in Poetry, than Dialogues and talks. For they must bring in the people speaking according to him whom they represent: who oftentimes do speak more after their sense and of the people whom they do jest at, then according or after the same of the author. Although that the author hath willingly used to choose some one by whom he giveth to understand what is his opinion, and the best sentence. Therefore I have brought in four men of divers qualitises The people of the Dialogues. and opinions, and do make them to speak according to the matters which are talked off at this day among men, and according to the nature and affection of every one of them. I have brought in one as a man very devout and searing God, which nevertheless is yet altogether wrapped in superstition and error, and maynteineth man's traditions, but not wilfully. I have brought in an other, which is not yet fully assured and set down neither on the one side nor on the other, but is troubled in his conscience, and knoweth not very well whom to believe, but runneth on the one side and ●n the other, and yet nevertheless desireth to know the truth, and he inquireth and knoweth already many abuses: wherefore he speaketh a little more joyfully, and careth not so much for man's traditions, and is not so affectioned after them, nor so severe as the first, who is yet altogether rooted in these old superstitions. Afterwards cometh one, who representeth the person of a grave & honest man, & skilful in the heavenly and humane letters. which speaketh daily with great honour and reverence of the word of God and absolveth the questions and matters alleged of the one side and of the other, according to the sentences of the holy Scriptures, and ancient Ecclesiastical Doctors. And for the fourth there is one which is a little more talkative than this, and a little more given to speak freely against the abuses, but he doth it with more greater modesty & honesty, than the Caphards' do speak against the ministers, and lovers of the truth. I do sayne this man to have more skill or knowledge in human letters then the others, and which speaketh willingly and joyfully, but in such sort, that he playeth in earnest, and saith nothing but to the dishonour of Antichrist, for to magnify jesus Christ, & that he is content to be corrected by his companion, if any thing be to be blamed. Wherefore if any man would saeme to cavil, because it seemeth unto him some time that this man playeth the part humane letters m●ngled with the divine. of a mocker, and that he mingleth the human letters, Histories and Poetryes with the divine, let him consider the person whom he representet● & that he doth not speak any thing so absurd nor so strange, but that it serveth to the present matter, and let him not vere himself any more. Furthermore if Saint Paul by occasion hath sometime Act. 17. f. 28. 1. 〈◊〉. 15. b. 12. Titus. 1. d. 12. alleged the witness of the Panuns, yea of Poets, for to serve to his matter, and if the ancient Doctors of the Church of whom I have already spoken off, have yet done more and their book have served them so well for to confound them themselves, and to vanquish them of their errors and to show unto them more clearly the truth & virtue of our religion: Insomuch that julian the Apostate in The forbidding of julian the Apostate. Histo. trip. lib. 9 cap. 17. spite of his beard was constrained to forbidden the Christians to read them: he aught not to think it strange, if I do follow their example in like things, chiefly when I will show plainly and openly before all men's eyes, how the superstitions and idolatries of the Christians were taken from the paynim and Idolaters, and altogether like or worse. I do not allege them for that God's truth is not sufficient of itself, to allow and maintain itself, but for to make all things to serve him, and for to make the light the better to be known from darkness, the truth from lying, and the better to vanquish and overcome the shamelessé seducers, who would yet hide and cover their heresies and abominations, if one do not show them forth with the finger, and except one do take them as the thief upon his theft and robbery, and the shameless whore with her whoredom. And if there be any yet which will not be contented with those reasons, I will show unto him such an excuse and defence as Mantuan did make for himself, in a matter almost like, saying: Think not that I am to be rebuked because that 1. Lib. de patien. c. 23 I have recourse to the authority of an heathen man. For Saint Augustine which is one of our Doctors, saith: If the Philosophers have said any thing confirmable unto our faith, we must not avoid them nor fear them, but rather we aught to convert & turn them to our use and profit, as things recovered & taken away from unjust possessors, for to make them serve to their true possessors. If they do then admit the just and reasonable excuse of Mantuan, and do attribute any authority unto Saint Augustine, they aught not to do unto me worse than to other. And if it seem unto any of our sages and A buses are not yet enough uncovered & made known. wise men, that the same is but lost time, and that we need not now any more to discover the abuses, because that they are already sufficiently discovered and opened, I am of the contrary opinion, and do know clean contrary by experience. I know not whether the sages have seen the abuses so uncovered, and whether they (which dare not speak of jesus Christ but with half a mouth, and dare not preach but secretly) have found people among them of so sharp and earnest a spirit, that they do know all things and are ignorant of nothing. But as for us which are here, we have experience clean contrary. For sithence that the Gospel hath been preached already ten or twelve years in some places, and freely (the which men dare not in all places) and the abuses have been manifested so clearly and plainly as the same is clear at high noon, we are yet all abashed, that we do find dreamings, errors and great superstitions in some, yea in those in whom a man would not think, and yet we do think that we have already much profited in the knowledge of God. But that is marvel that of the mark & carecter of the Devil, which is so hard to deface, and of an old custom which is so hard to tear out, and so much the harder the worse it is. Wherefore I shallbe much abashed, that there where one dares not speak of jesus Christ, nor to open his mouth against Antichrist, that the errors and abuses were all so clear and manifest, that there was no more need to speak of them, inasmuch as here and there where the truth is cl●rly & freely preached, one cannot tell which way one can pluck and tear them from the hearts of men, and that it is not requisite to say or speak any more against them. Or it must be that God hath there more amply shed out his grace, or else that there are héer● very dull spirits and wits in comparison of others. But I fear rather that those which glory in themselves to know them so much, know not themselves the moiety, and understand very evil, that which they think to know. For if they had intelligence and understanding such as they think to have, and that they did know the abomination such as it is, and how it displeaseth God, and is noisome and hurtful unto his church, they would retire and draw themselves further from it then they do, and it should be unpossible that they could see and suffer it, but would flee rather away from thence, or they would suffer themselves rather to be burned, then to dissemble and consent unto it: But would say as the faithful of whom the Prophet hath written, which do consider the grace which God hath done unto them, and comparing them with their first condition, say, to the great abomination Esa. 30. c. 22. of all Idolatry. Fie, get you hence. And therefore, one cannot to much manifest the abuses. For truth cannot be The profit to uncover abuses. known without discovering them & pulling them down. And in doing that, one doth manifest them unto those who knoweth them not yet, which shall be always more in number than we would, the which we must draw away. Afterwards the thing may serve them which already have the knowledge, many ways. First for to refresh and quicken the memory from the darknesses in which they have been, to the end, that they may know the better the blindness & infirmity of man's understanding, & what he may do of himself, when he will be guided by his own head, and forsake God and his word, for to follow men and their traditions. Afterwards, that shall serve them for a remembrance and sign of the triumph of jesus Christ, and of his truth, to the confusion of Satan, Antechriste, lying, and man's wisdom, who will exalt himself above the knowledge of GOD, to the end that he have more occasion to humble himself, to acknowledge the mercy that GOD hath done for him, and to tender thanks unto him: And that he be more prudent and better advised hereafter, and pray unto the LORD more earnestly that he do keep him that he do never fall again into such or like errors and inconveniences. Furthermore that shall serve him as a prick, the better to prick him forward to indignation against Antechriste, and to have compassion upon the poor ignorant people and his wandering and erring brethren, and to take with more greater courage the cause of the truth in hand, considering the unworthiness of the thing. And he that shall be yet weak, should fortify and strengthen himself, and he that shall be already firm and strong, should confirm himself more. For all these causes and reasons, GOD would that the errors and sins of the people should be registered, and hath so many times commanded that they should be remembered. And the Prophet Esay did not admonish so many times without cause the people, after that he had well mocked them for Esa. 46. c. 8 Idolatry, that they should remember those things to the end they may the better know the judgement of God which is upon the Infidels, which are as bruit beasts, and what treasure it is to have the truth of God and his word. And if any man will yet say, that notwithstanding that it is not evil, but very profitable and necessary to show forth and declare the abuses, yet nevertheless we must not proceed in such sort, which should seem peradventure unto some men more proper and fit for to be offended, then for to be edified by it: I do answer unto the same, that I know not what those shall be that shall read those books, nor what occasion they may have to be offended. I do think that they shall not be so much esteemed that many people would read them: Beside that many peradventure would, which cannot. But howsoever it be, if those that do read them are good and virtuous people and fearing GOD, they shall know that I study not but to manifest the verity, and to glorify jesus Christ, & that those whom I rebuke are not only worthy to be mocked, but unworthy that the earth beareth them, except they will acknowledge their faults, and give glory unto God. If they were ●picures and contemners of GOD, they can be no worse Ep●●●es than they are, and therefore know in what reputation they aught to be unto all good people, and that they are unworthy to be taken and accounted not only for Christians, but for men being a great deal more worse than bruit beasts. If they be Pharisees and obstinate Hypocrites, hypocrites Ma●. 15 a. 1. The offence of the Pharisees. and that they do seek the occasion of offence, they do find it in jesus Christ. Wherefore we must not much care or take thought for it. For they do take the offence without any man giving it them, and are an offence unto themselves, and cannot hear the truth without being offended. Wherefore we must hold unto that which jesus Christ said unto them: Let them alone, for they are the blind leaders of the blind. They Mat. 15. b. 14. must understand that an evil knot and hard piece of Malo nodo Malus tuntus. wood to cleave, hath need of an hard wedge and a strong mall to cleave it. If they are so shameless, that they have no shame at all, and have their heart so obstinate and hardened, that they have no remorse of censcience, in mocking of GOD and blaspheming him so horribly as they do daily, and do teste so at men to their great loss and hurt, shall we be more ashamed to tell them their iniquity? to rebuke their abuses and abominations which they do? If they would not that one should speak of them, let them leave off and cease to do them. For I believe that there is not a man of a good heart, which taketh any great pleasure to remove that filthiness except they be constrained to do it through their importunity, impudency and shameless face. For what good Christian heart can suffer, that daily men should hide those abominations, and that one should cover such villainies, making us to believe, that their filthmesse and stink is as sweet as balm: their poison to be the bread of life: lying to be the truth: Hell to be Paradise: cursing to be blessing: darkness to be light: and death life? As for me I cannot colour, flatter nor hide the things, and I cannot but name them by their names. For such is the language and style of the spirit of God, which will not speak after men's fantasies The stile of the holy Ghost. and for to please them, as the Orators, which can give unto vices the names of virtues, and such colour as it pleaseth them, but to speak truth, as the thing is, calling Idolatry, that which the Hypocrites and Idolaters do call divine service, and their Idols, Devils, the which they call Gods. Wherefore although The forehead of hypocrites and prophets such Hypocrites have their forheades of stone and Iron so hard and immutable, that one cannot make them blush, but do keep their countenances as thieves and murderers, and shameless as harlots, yet let them understand on the other side that GOD hath given to his servants, as he said unto Ezechiel, aforehead of Brass, and of Ezech. 3 b. 9 a Diamond which is yet more harder, and which doth less shame to speak the truth and to give praises unto God, than they to maintain lyings, & to blame it. And therefore the Lord commanded Ezechiel, saying: go speak unto Ezech. 3 b. 7 them, and say unto them that which I have commanded thee. I know nevertheless that they will do nothing, but I will that thou do tell them. I know not what excuse such men can have. For they have been already taught all manner of ways. If they do complain that one hath learned & taught them to sharply, and with to great severity and rigour, I would learn and teach them a little more joyfully, and more jestingly, then bitterly. If they do yet find my manner of doing too sharp, there are as many others, which have written as modestly as is possible, & yet they find no goodness in it, and leave not off to persever always worse and worse, in their errors and heresies. Wherefore I know not what song one may sing unto them, but to rebuke them of that which jesus Christ rebuked the jewish people, and that which the little children, which played in the streets, rebuked their companions off: when Mat 11. b. 16 we did sing unto you sorrowful things, you have not wept, when we did sing unto you joyful things you have not daunsed. john Baptist came in great severity ●austeritie, & have found him very sharp, & they say he hath the Devil within him. jesus Christ came with all humility and gentleness, and they said that he was a drunkard and a glutton, and a friend unto publicans and sinners. If one do speak unto them sharply, as their iniquity requireth, they say that one is furious and mad. If one do speak unto them pleasantly, they will call him fool or scoffer. To conclude, they will always find some thing to say, as we see it by experience in our time. Many men at the beginning have taken upon them to touch a little some abuses, yet of the most grossest & most apparent. These Hypocrites could not bear them, but they have persecuted them by sea and land. They cannot only suffer that one should touch a little with his finger their Idolatry & superstition, & that one should open his mouth for to speak one word for to reform their estate, but which is more, have declared themselves to be enemies unto all learned & wise men, which have travailed to abolish all barberousnesse and sophistry for to set up again all good letters and other disciplines, & have accounted and condemned them for heretics, and have put them in great danger of their lives. Sigh then that they cannot suffer those here, that they should go so pleasantly, not only of little dialogues, & familiar talk for little children, which do unto them yet more greater honour than they deserve and do flatter them more than is need, God hath raised up others, who have in such sort removed their filthiness, the which others have not done but a little tickled up, that they have in such sort made the filthiness and stink so to avoid, that all the world doth perceive and fool it, in such sort that one can no longer abide and suffer it. When these sharp surgeons are come, which have thrust their instrument so deep within the Apostume, that they have pierced them even unto the heart, and bones, they have begun to reject the first which did but a little touch the wounds and sores without, and through their gentleness make them to fester and wax worse and worse, making of it but a certain pallative cure or healing. When they have experimented and tried the second, they have cried out Alarome against them, and have been constrained to praise the first whom they condemned in comparison of those here. Afterwards, came consequently others who have a little better uncovered their deceit, and which have better manifested the villainy and the fornications of the great whore of Babylon, insomuch that those whom men accounted to be so earnest and such heretics, have begun by them to be esteemed gentle and good men, in comparison of the latter. And so they have had of all sorts, and yet they will understand nothing. Wherefore me thinks they can no more pretend ignorance nor infirmity, or any just excuse, but that it is time to answer to a fool according to his foolishness, to the end he think not always Pro. 19 to be wise. We must then let them to understand that men do account them for such as they are, and they must not any more spare them, sith that they would wax worse and impair if one should keep them, and the more that one doth think to make them meek and gentle in flattering them, they become the more savage, wild, and mad. And therefore I think that those that are of a good judgement, and which do consider the things according to the truth, shall be constrained to confess that I flatter to much. Although that I doubt not but that one shall find some which may say of me that which is said commonly of the Ass, which would The fable of the Dog and of the Ass. Apes required in the court of Babylon. play with his master, as he did see the dog do, striking him and leaping upon him with his feet. I am very sure that such plays and games do not please the king of Babylon and his court, and that they will not have such Apes, except they be otherwise appareled, than that poor Ass was. For they have not accustomed that those little ladies dogs, which make them sport and wag the tail, and which are learned and taught to ladies Dogs. run and leap on the Ladies and Gentlewomen, and those pleasant Apes and Marmesettes for to make them pastime. But the LORD will have none other Apes in his Church, than such dullardes as the world judgeth them, which do play and jest earnestly, and do go as they do intend, in all simplicity, without dissembling that which aught not to be dissembled. He will not have such little pleasant dogs, for to be a delight and pleasure unto Ladies, but would have good Mastyes and great greyhoundes which are not to be carried in the Bsa. 56. c. 10 The mastyes & grayhounds of jesus Christ. Horat. Ha' n●●gae seria ducunt, ridentem diccr● Verum. Quid vetant. sleeve, but for to bark and drive away the Wolf from the fold. Wherefore if there be men which in laughing do bite, they do give us to understand that they take no great pleasure, by such plays and pastimes, but that they would have other pastime and occasion to speak of better matters. Yet nevertheless they do show unto those which do love the pastime, and which take Democritus. pleasure in them as Democritus hath laughed and scoffed at the follies and dreams of men, that it is not now need that they do seek any other matter. The court To laugh at the pope's cost. of Antichrist giveth them enough, and most worthiest to laugh at, and in the which one may better jest without offending GOD, if one do it with such affection and such modesty as is in these Dialogues. Those also which shall be totter and severe, and which as Heraclitus Heraclitus. do judge the follies and miseries of men more worthy of wéepinges and lamentations, then of laughing and iestinges, they shall have here matter enough to weep, seeing the judgement of GOD which hath been, and is yet upon the Christian people because of our sins, and despising of his word. Insomuch, that me thinks that I have not written any thing which may bring hurt unto the Christian religion. And though I do not profit very much, yet nevertheless there wanted in me no will. Wherefore I do trust that the good men will take all in the best part: whom only I fear to offend. If the wicked are angry without a cause, I will leave them for such as they are: yet I speak nevertheless the verity, although they will not take it. If the wise and learned cannot much profit, it is sufficient for me that the poor ignorant people should receive some fruit: Although that such a one do think himself very wise and learned, that he may yet find some thing for to learn. It is very true that that matter requireth better to be entreated off in Latin then in French. For it containeth things which would have been plainer & which would have been entreated off more briefly, the which peradventure I may be rebuked for overmuch prolixity & tediousness. But there are many reasons which are the cause. The first, is for that I am one of those Orators which know not to enter in talk, or begin any matter, nor which know not how to leave off. The second, because that I do writ most of all for the ignorant and rude people, for whom we had need to chew their meats a little, and to declare the matters more grossly the which they cannot understand in one word, as those that are wise & learned, which will comprehend it very easily, as those which have read the Authors out of whom I have taken the matter. Therefore there is yet an other reason: that is, that I must use great circumlocutions and narrations for to express and declare that which in Latin or in Greek might be spoken in one word. For the things are more hard unto those which have not read the Greek and Latin authors. But I have told already the causes which have moved me to writ rather in this language then in an other. And if the matter be worthy to be put in the Latin tongue, if it please the Lord, it may be done at leisure: or it may move the heart of some which will do it better. Be it as it is, it is to me sufficient, so that I do serve a little the good. If I do offend the Hypocrites, I would be contented that they be offended with me, so that they do find better taste in all the other which have spoken and written of the religion a great deal better than I, and so that they have them in such honour and reverence as they aught to have. Histories of our time. Also I think that none shall find unfit for the matter many of the histories of our time, the which I have set in and mingled among these matters. For if it be lawful to allege the ancient histories written by others, wherefore should we not speak of that which is done in our time when occasion serveth? Sigh that so many things do come daily more worthy of remembrance than many of those which the ancients have written? Wherefore I have not esteemed and thought that to be a thing inconvenient nor unworthy of remembrance, which we ourselves and our fathers are witnesses. Also I have put the quotations of the authors in the margins, out of whom I have taken that which I have alleged, to the end it should not appear that I have invented them of mine own head, aswell of the Philosophers, Poets, Historiographers, as Doctors, Questionaries, Sophisters, as of the ancient Doctors of the Church and holy Scriptures. FINIS. ¶ THE ARGUMENT AND SUM of the first Dialogue. IN this first part and first Dialogue I do amply entreat of the matters which concern those that be deceased, declaring the errors, abuses, & superstitions, which are committed about them, and the false and diverse opinions which have been and yet are among men, aswell touching the estate of the bodies as of the souls. And of hell, Limbus patrum and of Purgatory. And how that which the superstitious Christians do about the dead, is nothing at all like unto the word of God, but is altogether taken of the Infidels & paynim. And for to enter into the matter, I bring in the people who take their theme and matter upon a fermon which they herded of an holy father, entreating of such matters. And although the matter might seem wholly to be feigned, yet it hath the foundation upon a true history. For mine intent is partly in this first disputation, to rebuke the sottish and vain curiosity of foolish Preachers and Doctors, who have forsaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy themselves upon unprofitable questions & vain contemplations, & to inquire, of things that they cannot know and which we have not to do withal. And which serve to none other end but to hinder and let the poor Christian people to seek out the will of God, to induce and lead them to false religion, superstition, Idolatay and all Paganism. Also I declare the Arguments of the Pope's Purgatory with the Purgatory of the paynim, and the ceremonies and superstitions which they use about the dead, & out of what spring they issued, and what have been the purgations of the paynim which the Idolatrous Christians do yet keep: and how the Papistical Purgatory hath served the insatiable avarice of those which do live to destroy and devour all the poor world. Also how the priest's Purgatory is burned, how fire hath taken the same and what punishment is prepared for those which go unto strange fire to be purged from their sins any other than the fire of lesus Christ: and how the priests do disagree both from the word of God, and from their own doctrine, decrees and cannons. After those things we shall enter into the second part which shall entreat of the appearing of the spirits of those that be dead. All these things shallbe yet more plainly understood and better confirmed by the Dialogues following, of the which the last shallbe of the immortality of the souls and the resurrection of the flesh. Afterwards we will come unto the living, and in the other parts we shall enter into matters yet more grave, more necessary and of greater importance, for the present time, to show what is the estate of the world & of religion, and by what means that man which fears God, and the poor troubled and doubtful consciences, may be assured and know what is the true Church & the truth, and whereunto they may surely stay themselves, and how they may be certain what doctrine is of God. I have entitled this first Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory, chiefly for two causes. The first because I declare how the ancient paynim and our priests after their example do travail to extract the fift essence of the souls which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory. The other is, because from those furnaces our priests do draw out the Philosophical stone. ¶ For to enter then into the matter, hilary beginneth, ask his companions of the Sermon which they herded. ¶ THE FIRST DIALOGUE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatory. The Speakers. hilarius. Eusebius. Theophilus. Thomas. hilarius. If mine eyes have not deceived me, I think I see you all three to day at the Sermon: wherefore I desire to know your opinions how the same pleased you, and what you think of the Preacher. Eusebius. As far as I can judge, I think that he is very skilful and cloquent: for he hath spoken very learnedly and deeply of matters so obscure and profound. hilarius. He could not speak more profoundly: For he hath pierced even unto the very centre of the earth: therefore I am the more abashed that he spoke so clearly of matters so obscure, and of these dark places no man ever see aught. For the Sun never shines there. Theophilus. As far as I could perceive by him, I think that either he hath not been in those places of which he spoke, or else if he were, it is long ago. If the opinion of Isydore be true, we shall have very small occasion to give credit to this ghostly father and to his preaching. Eusebius. Hath Isydore been of an other opinion, than the rest of the Christian Doctors, touching this matter? Theophilus. There is none among the Christians which doubteth that there is an hell, seeing that the holy Scripture rendereth so sure and undoubtefull a testimony with the which we aught to content ourselves, not willing to know any Hell & hell fire Mat 5 c. 25. Mat. 18. 18 Ma●c●● 41. ●s●●6 g ●4. ●ob. 10. d. 12 further, than it hath revealed it unto us. It aught to suffice us which jesus Christ witnesseth unto us, that there is an hell of eternal & unquenchable fire, where the worm dieth not, but where there is everlasting horror, weeping & gua hang of teeth: we need not to inquire of the place: for I think there is none which desireth to go thither. And therefore we have need to pray unto GOD, that it would please him to give us his grace to know his will, and to be able to accomplish it thorough his son jesus Christ, to the end we may avoid that hell fire and extreme darkness. We need not much to stay to know in what place hell is, The bounds of hell The opinions of the Theologians Thom. in. 4. dist 42 art. 2. D. 1. Richard. 4. dist. 42. Plato in Phaedone. The opinion of Isydore. Io. maio. 4. Scent dist. 44. quest. 1. whether it is in the centre of the earth, according to the common opinion of the Doctors & of Plato, which says, that it is in the depth of the earth: or whether it is under the earth in the country of the Antipodes, according to the opinion of Isydore, who saith that after the day of judgement, the Sun and the Moon shall keep themselves so steadfast in heaven that they shall no more turn round about the earth, but give their light and brightness, only in that part of the world in the which we devil, and that the damned shallbe all sent away under the earth, into those horrible darkness, and into those places, in the which at this day, some men do think, that the Antipodes do devil. hilarius. If it were so that the Sun and the Moon doth now shine there, we may think, that some one of the country of the Antipodes is come from thence, who hath declared and described to our Preacher the situation of hell, of Limbo patrum, and of Purgatory, with all their confines in such sort and manner as he hath expounded them unto us. Thomas. You may say what you will, and I will believe what pleaseth me, but I cannot think that he was ever there, or that he hath ever herded any one speak that came from thence, & hath so well visited all the places thereof. For never in my life I heard it better devised. There is neither hall, chamber nor closet, cole-panne, kitchen, nor seller, chimney nor pot-hangers, great cauldron nor little cauldron, chains nor flesh-hooks and other infernal utensils, but that he hath described and set them forth so lively, as me thinketh I see the things before mine eyes in such sort, that yet I am afraid when I think on them. The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very diligent and curious for to express & declare in their instruments and writings the situation & lymtis of houses and possessions of which they make writings off: But I have not found any so skilful and of such ability who can bond and limit so perfectly the lands, as our preacher to day hath lymitted and bounded out hell, Limbus patrum and Purgatory. As far as I can perceive he knoweth in what climate they are: how many degrees, miles The description of hell and places the one is from the other: of what side they are all situated and placed, whether they be on the Cast, West, North or South. hilarius. You take not the matter am●●se. But you must not be abashed, if he and such as he is, do take so great pains to bond and limit so perfectly those places, and chiefly Purgatory: For they Purgatory and lus revenues have no better possession than this, which yieldeth unto them more profit and gain, nor of which they receive and gather up more rents and revenues. There is no realm, Lordship, land nor heritage which bringeth more profit to their Lords & owners, than Purgatory doth bring unto them. Wherefore it is no marvel if they do fear so much to lose it and that their bounds and limits should be transported or changed any other where. Ptolomus and many other wise and excellent Geographers are esteemed to be very well learned, aswell among the Greeks as the Latins. But I think that among all those, there is not one, which in his Geography hath at any time so well painted and described the earth with all the parts thereof, countries and regions as this our Doctor hath described and drawn out before our eyes, these low parts and inseruall regions. Thomas. By that we may know, or at the lest presume, that he speaketh not only by hear say, but that he hath been there in proper person, or ●ls hath had some expert teacher in that Geography. For I do see that the best Geographers and the most coming Cosmographers do fail oftentimes in the description of the earth, and of many countries and regions which are most familiar to us, and of which they may have greatest and most certain experience. hilarius. Without seeking any further, we may try it in the French Cards or Maps. There is not almost a country better known than France, nevertheless we see oftentimes great errors in those Cards in the which it is described. Wherefore we may well think that it may so chance in other tables, maps, and cards conteminge the description of heaven and earth and of the regions and countries unknown. Thomas. I doubt not at all, but that this Monk hath the The inferuall maps spirit for to compose and make a table and Map of these low countries, better than the painters have painted them out in the temples, or the Printers in the shepherds Calendars. And therefore I desire very much to speak with him. For I have taken in hand a journey in the which he may help me. For I hope that either he will show me some good way, or else satisfy me in such sort that peradventure I shall save the journey and charges. hilarius. What voyage is that which you have taken upon you? will you go into Sicily? Thomas. What to do in Sicily? hilarius. To descend into hell: For I cannot understand The descending into hell in Sicily. any other thing by your talk, forasmuch as you inquire after that Monk to accomplish and end your voyage. I think you will have him for your guide, to conduct you in that dangerous voyage, even as Circe ●uyded Ulysses Homer iodss. 1. &. 11. Virg. Aeneld. 6. Ovid Meta. li. 14. to bring him to the speech of Elpenor: and Sibylla Aeneas to conduct and bring him unto the speech of his father Anchises. Thomas. I think you are either a Prophet or a Divine: you have hit the na●●e on the hea●e, you have not erred a whit from the matter. ●ut to what purpose speak you unto me of Sicily? Is there any haven, or any entry, place, or den, to descend into those infernal and obscure, horrible and most darksome countries. hilarius. What mean you to make all this circumstance & questioning? you make it so strange as though you had never herded it spoken off before. There is nothing more The Poetical divinity. common in the Poetical Theology. Thomas. You allege unto me a goodly divinity. I have nothing to do with the Poets, nor with their fables and feignings. Is it not well known, that they be invented of pleasure, and there is no truth in them, but that they are most evident lies. hilarius. If you so little esteem the testimony of the Poets, I think you will not despise altogether the The common witness. vulgar & common opinion which hath continued and endured so long time, and moreover doth confirm it. Thomas. You bring me into a fair land, and allege unto me a testimony worthy of credit, for confirmation of the other, to set me over unto the common people: there is nothing more unconstant, more foolish, more mutable, nor more ready to believe all lies, fables and follies? hilarius. I think that yet at the lest wise you will not reject the testimony of that holy man odilo, Abbot of the Monks Odilus Abbot of Cluny. of Cluny, and of many other Monks very devout, which have followed him. Thomas. It may be that when I shall hear his opinion, either I will allow it or disallow it. What saith he? hilarius. Peter of Amiens hath written that in the time of Pope john the viij. About a thousand Durant. ie Rat. dan o●fi. lib. 7. Rub. de offi. ●or. Polid. Virg. de invent. reli. lib. 6. c. 9 Aetna called Gibello mount in ●icily. years after the death and passion of jesus Christ, odilo was in Sicily, and because that he herded oftentimes the noise, cries and bewailings which were made continually, about that burning hill Aetna, called of the Italians at this day Gibello monte, did think it came from the devils lamenting that the souls of the faithful deceased were delivered from torments through the masses, vigiles, prayers, sacrifices and offerings of the Christians. And therefore he incontinent declared the same to his Monks, and they all decreed together, that after they had offered their offerings the first day of November, and celebrated the feast The feast of the dead. Suppling. Chron. lib. 2. Feralia Satra of Saints in the honour of all Saints, they would in like manner the next day being holiday make prayers and ●risons for the souls of all the faithful deceased. afterward in succession of time others received and allowed that manner of doing, as good and holy. Thomas. What Parentali●. reason had they to imagine that those cries & mournings came of the lamentations that the Devils made? hilarius. I cannot understand that it hath had any other reason or foundation then the Poets, and the common people, to think that there was a place there to descend into Hell in Sicily. hell, and the place in which the souls of the wicked were tormented for their sins, because that in that same mountain there is a perpetual fire which always burneth, and Plini. li. 3. c. 2 hath done so of long time. Wherefore they have thought that the damned were kept in those great burning goulfes. By this same reason was odilo and his Monks moved, and were the Authors, that the Christians gave anniversaries. themselves to celebrated feasts, and make sacrifiees for the dead in the month of November, even as the heathen Romans did commonly use it in the month of February, by the Quid. Fast. li. 2 Livi. li. 1. dec. 1. institution & appointment of Numa Pompilius the second king of the Romans. All the reason that moved odilo proceeded but of ignorance, for that he understood not the cause whereof those groanings, noise and fearful cries which he heard in Sicily about that mountain did arise. But imagined that it was the Devils which haled and fore themselves by the hair, sorrowing with great despite that they saw thesoules go out of pains and torments. But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his covent, nor to all the other Monks and Priests. For that sanie day, is the best fair that they have all the year, and a time in which they make harvest and vintage altogether, with not taking overmuch pains. If the souls of the deceased have as much gain as they, they, may be very joyful of the feast. Thomas. But I would gladly know, from whence those cries and mournings did proceed, whether they came Lu●r. li. 1. Hic Aetnea minantur. Murmura flam● marum rursum se colligere iras. from the Devils, or from the souls of the dampened, or from those which are kept in Purgatory, or of some other natural cause. hilarius. The cause is easy to be known of him who will understand what is the situation and nature of the place. For of the one side is the 〈◊〉 ●u●ibus crap●es terum ut vis cuomatignes. Ad caelum qu● ferant flamai sulgur● rursum Clau. de rapt. proserpi. li. 1. Sil. li. 14. Diodo. li. 6. &. 16 Polib. li. 1 ●elli puni●● S●rabo. li. 6 roaring of the Sea, which maketh an horrible noise, on the other side the great goulfes of fire that arise and come out of the mountain. Wherefore when the vehement▪ winds do blow, and enter violently into the holes and caves that are▪ there, and mingle themselves with those veins of brimstone kindled with that impetous fire, we must not marvel when all those things mixed and confused together, do meet, if there are fearful cryings, and such which the Poet hath described, saying. Lo● here the hill that Aetna height, most horrible to behold Ovid Meta. li. 15 The description of the hill Aetna. Thundering out and making cries, most terrible to be told. Which many times doth cast from it, of clouds that are full dark, And also whirl winds that are great, with smoke that is full black. And burning sparks of fire did fly, and flames that are most great Which from the fire rose suddenly, and touched the heavenly seat. Which oftentimes doth vomit out, the bowels and the guts Of rocks and stones that are full hard, which in that hill there lupkes. Thomas. I do then much doubt, if it be even so as you say, but that the good odilo was deceived, and that he, and all his Monks have greatly dreamt. The poetical fable of Enceladus and of the other Gyrantes. Vir. an●d. li 3 Fama est E●●●ladi s●mustum flumine corpus Vigeri mole ha●, ingentemque insuper Aetnam impositam r●ptis flammam ex● pirare camini●. Et sessum quoti. ●s mutat l●●us intremere omnem. Murmur Trinacriam, & 〈◊〉 〈…〉 hilarius. They have at the lest so much dreamt and those which have believed their dreams, as they who staying themselves upon the fables of Poets, have thought that Enseladus, Briarnis and the other Giants, were buried under that great and burning hill of Aetna, after that jupiter destroyed them with lightning and overthrew them upon the mounteines that they had made for to ascend into heaven, when they warred against him. For even as they imagined that those fearful and terrible Giants were enclosed under that mountain, who removing themselves from the one side to the other, did cast and throw forth those great and dangerous ●●●tes, flaming fierce, whoorlewindes and smoked: Those here do put the devils in slée●e of the Giants: And do attribute unto them that which the mountain doth naturally. So as other dreamers and fo●●es have done of the mountain of Island and Norway: of The mountains of Island and Norway. which they that have written of those regions & Countries, do witness that they are almost like unto that hill Aetna, and specially about the borders of Norway. For they say that there is there a mountain commonly called Hechelbergo environed with the Sea, the most horrible Hechelbergo. and fearful that is in the world. And for to make the tale better and the thing more marvelous, they say also, that there are heard the cryings, wéepinges and lamentations of the souls which go into Hell, insomuch as those horrible cries and noise are spread and herded The crying of the damned. a mile round about. They add moreover that there are very great and marvelous black Ravens & Crows Ravens and hell crows. which fly round about it making also horrible cries, in such sort that they terrify every man that none bareth to approach nigh unto that mounteine. Afterwards; Fountains of excessive coldness and heat. there ariseth out of the same two fountains, whereof the one is of such vehement and excessive coldness, and the other of such heat, that both of them are intolerable, and there is no Element how cold or hot soever it be, but that they surmount it, both in heat and coldness. And which is more in that same Country, towards the South parts, as men say, there is a place called Nadhegrin, in which the devils of that Nadhegrin. visible devils. place do appear unto men, whom they see before their eyes having bodies of the air. Thomas. odilo might have had better occasion to have situated Hell and Purgatory there, then in the hill Aetna. hilarius. It would have had better, appearance, if those things were true. But if we should stay ourselves upon such dreams and lies, we might also forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland, in which The doleful hill in Scotland. men say that there is a hill full of sorrow & very fearful, by reason of the cries of those that do weep and lament there. And in Thuringia there is a hill in which there are herded Thuringia. most horrible noise & cries: And that hath not only the name to be frequented with Fauns & satires which are a kind of Devils, which many ways have seduced the paynim. But also some do affirm that they have seen the same by experience. And some writers & Authors accounted for men worthy of credit, have written it. Thomas. There should be then many Helles and Purgatories by that account. But because I fear very much, that there are great follies and lies in those histories, I think that it should be most sure and expedient for me, to take that way which I first purposed, then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of those places that you have named unto me. For the way is not much frequented nor known as that is which I have taken upon me, except you have touched the one of the countries, whether I would go. hilarius. Whether have you then enterprised to go? Thomas. I do make mine account, to go strait into Scotland or into Ireland. hilarius. Is there any way to descend into these infernal Regions and countries? Thomas. Have you ever herded spoken of the voyage and Caves of Saint Patrick? do you not remember the books that we had at The voyage of saint Patrick's purgatory. school when we were little children? hilarius. You make me now remember the saying of my Grandfather. Were we not happy in those days, that we had such books in our hands, in steed of some good Author, and of the Bible and holy Scriptures? If we consider well the unhappiness and misery of that time and barberousnesse and ignorance both of God and all good discipline which then possessed all the world, and compare it with the mercy which GOD at this present doth unto us, we have good occasion to tender unto him thanks. Do you think that that book, wherein is described the voyage of Saint Patrick and such other like, full of fables, most sottish and brutish, were meet to give any good doctrine unto children, and that the new testament had not been a better for them to have in their hands? Truly we are in a good way, forasmuch as we be already come unto Saint Patrick. Thomas. You know that this cave is in Ireland. Hillatius. Some place it in Ireland, and others in Scotland: It is all one to me wheresoever it be, for I will make no voyage thither. Thomas. It is all one also to me. For those countries are not far Scotland and Ireland. Erasmu●●●n chiliad. va 〈…〉 in Commentae. super pomp. mel. distant the one from the other: It is enough for me, so that I may find it. For that cause I have determined to go thither out of hand. But since I herded our Ghostly Father, I will not go before I have first spoken with him: and after I will rule myself according to the counsel that he will give me. hilarius. You do either mock or dream? Thomas. That is no country, whereof we should mock, forasmuch as all those that have been there have lost their laughing and all rejoicing. hilarius. It is then like unto the den of Throphonius, which is in the country of Lebadia, of which the ancient To lose the laughter. writers have written almost all after the same sort, as our dreamers have done, of Saint Patrick's hole or cave: and doubt not, but that the one fable hath engendered that other. Nevertheless Throphonius den. Lebadia philos●r. ●●as. chil. 1. ce●t. 7. I do not yet think that you speak in earnest. Thomas. You think that I am such a mocker as you are. hilarius. If you be not a mocker, you are then a dreamer. Thomas. I sleep not whereby I should dream. hilarius. No more also did our ghostly Preacher sleep to day: I never in all my life herded such an old dreamer dream and take on in such sort. I believe no other thing but that he hath studied in the school of some old doting witch full of lyings, from which he brought this divinity. Eusebius. Are you not ashamed so to mock & speak against such a virtuous and learned man as he is. hilarius. I know not what knowledge and learning he may have: But this I may surely say, that I never herded any thing of him, whereby I might know that there is either knowledge or wisdom in him. If he had studied in humaino letters, I should have thought that he had read that he preached either in the Poetries or verses of Homer or Virgil, or of Homer. odissi. 〈◊〉. Virg. anaed. 6. plutar in comment. de dam. Socra. some other Poets, as well Greeke as Latin: or in Plutarch. For I am sure that in those Theologies a man shall find that matter altogether entreated off almost after that sort as he hath declared unto us, and chief in Plutarch who declareth Timarchus. most marvelous things, that Timarchus hath seen in the den of Trophonius, which differ but a little from those which we have herded of our Ghostly father. But I greatly fear that he never profited so much in Greeke neither in Latin, that he could ever have read those authors, nor that he could have dnderstoode them, if he should have read them. But for to speak as I think, I rather The shepherds Calendar. Dantes. believe that he hath read it either in the Sepheardes' Calendar, or in Dantes. What age is he off? Thomas. Wherefore do you demand his age? hilarius. Because that if he had lived in the time of Alcestis and Protesilaus, either in the time of Hercules and Theseus, or in the time of Ulysses and Aeneas, whom the Poets do witness & affirm to have been in hell, and that they have visited all those countries and chambers, as well the Limbus patrum as Purgatory, and also those goodly and pleasant fields Eliseas, we might presume and think that he hath spoken unto them, and hath learned of them that Theology. But he must be then at the lest more than a thousand and nine hundredth years old, and that he must john. 12. b. 9 A feigned fable upon the history of Lazarus after the imitation of the poets. be twice so old as Mathusala. Thomas. Have we not Lazarus whom jesus Christ raised to life who hath been long time after all those, who could tell what there is? For thou canst not say that the same is a fable as the others are? hilarius. Yet the Ghostly Father could not have spoken unto him, except he were at the lest more than fifteen hundredth years old. I do not deny his resurrection, but I do deny all those lyings which are added unto the history of the Gospel. Thomas. Can he not very well have herded it of those who through long succession have learned and understanded it of those who have heard it of Lazarus. hilarius. Here are a great many of héeresays, I would gladly know who was the first, unto whom Lazarus declared it, and whether Lazarus hath spoken more amply than jesus Christ and all his Prophets and Apostles. Do we not plainly see how we do jest with God, turning his works and miracles into fables, and Poets inventions? Can the enemies of our Religion do more? Do not these old dreamers who have dreamt and invented out such fables, make of Lazarus an other Alcestis, Theseus, Ulysses or Aeneas who are come from hell, for to declare what is done there? To what other end do all th●s● inventions and fabulous narrations of old fools serve. But for to call into doubt God's truth, and for to give occasion unto the mockers and contemners of God and of his word, to laugh and make a scoff of the Christian Religion, and the Doctrine of the Gospel. As Pythagoras, Lucretia, Lucian and many others have scoffed at the Ovid Me●. 15 fables and inventions of the Poets, touching their Hell, and of the vain credulity and great foolishness of the ignorant people, who gave credit unto them. As we have done to the dreams of those Caphards' and ●oltes, who would make so many parts of the infernal Regions, as the Cosmographers have made of the earth. For as they have divided The division of the insernal cosmography. it into Asia, Africa and Europa: Even so have those divided the infernal habitations into the Limbus patrum, Purgatory, & the hell of the dampened. And have made all those countries inhabited, and so full of people that there is not one little corner nor angle, but that all is full, chief in purgatory, if we will believe our Priests and Monks. For the souls go thither daily by thousands. Theophilus. Our Lord jesus Christ raised not Lazarus, nor the others, whom he hath called from death to life, for to hold & keep men by such mockeryes, and for to make the word of GOD like unto the work of poets. For his simplicity, gravity, nor yet his majesty, can bear and suffer it. It sufficeth him to teach I● sufficeth to know of Hell. us that there is a Hell, and we aught to content ourselves therewith, without inquiring where it is, nor what it is. For those who through the just judgement of God shall be there condemned, shall know it by proving and feeling it to soon, and more than they would. The elect and blessed who through jesus Christ are delivered, study not to know any further, than God hath revealed unto them, that they have felt it in their consciences, when they have offended, and that they have been grieved and pressed down with the feeling of their sins. hilarius. What will you say if this Ghostly father be one Transmigration of pythagoras. of Pythagoras Disciples, and of that same opinion? and that, the soul of every one of them, whom of late the Poets do witness to be descended into hell, were entered into his body, insomuch that he was one of the very same? Theophilus. We might very well have thought no less, in hearing these dreams and lies: But that we knew for certain that the opinion of Pythagoras is false (although that many among the jews are yet drunken therewith) & that the same which the Poets and Monks have invented are nothing else but dreams and lyings. But yet although our Monk were some Theseus, Ulysses or Pythagoras, yet he might very well be deceived. For sithence that those The ●yre begun in purgatory. were in those regions and countries, the fire hath begun there to kindle, which hath burned all the walls of those diverse habitations and infernal chambers, forged, made and builded first by the Poets, and after wards by the Monks and Priests, insomuch that there remained neither Limbus patrum, or yet Purgatory, but Hell only, where that inextinguible fire is. Thomas. Y●u do speak of the Limbus patrum and of Purgatory, as though there were none, & that the same that hath been preached unto us, was invented of pleasure, & that they were but fables. But doth not the Scripture make mention of it? do you think that so many good preachers which have been in times past would have taught such things, if they had not be● true? Theophilus. I have herded many preach that the children that are born dead, The children born dead. & all those which do die before t●ey be baptised, go strait way unto the Lymbus patrum wherein they have their chambers apart, separated from hell and Purgatory, and that they shall never enter into Paradise, but that they shall be deprived for ever from the joys theroff. Afterwards there was nothing that I herded so much commended in the sermons, as the souls of Purgatory, unto whom also they give chambers apart, and do keep them as prisoners, in those dungeons and prisons, until such time as they have The prisoners of Purgatory. paid their ransom. Eusebius. Do you not steadfastly believe that the same is true, that there is a Limb and a Purgatory? Theophilus. I would believe it without any doubt or contradiction, if I had read it aswell in the old Plato in gorgia & phaedone plater. in comde dam. and new testament, as in the books of Plato and of Plutarch and such other which were of the same opinion. hilarius. You aught yet to have added among the Greek Poets Orpheus, and Homer and Virgile among the Latin Poets: who have so well described the Limb, hell, Purgatory, and the Pope's paradise, that I think it is not possible to paint and set them out better. And I cannot believe but that he was inspired with the same spirit by The spirit, the Author of pgatory. which they have spoken who have forged and invented unto us those Limbs and Purgatoryes, and with which those were inspired, who did sit in the councils in which such doctrine was allowed and confirmed: peradventure he may find some thing in the description of Virgile which may seem a little to differ from the Pope's Theology: But notwithstanding if the matters are well examined and tried, one cannot find so great errors, that for them he may be judged an heretic in the Pope's church, nor yet repugnance which is not more easy to agree, then to make Scotus and Thomas Aquinas to agree together: the Reals The Limb where the children are and Mortals', the Sophistes and Doctors questionaries that be among them. But for to prove it, give ear what the Poet speaketh ●n such sort as I may speak in our proper tongue: And for to begin in order I will recite vnt● thee first the ●escription of t●e ●●mbe● ●here the children are, saying. Anon were voices herded, and piteous cries, and wailings sh●●ll Virg. A●●t. 6 Of souls of tender babes, and infants weeping void of skill. That pleasure sweet of life did never taste, but from their breast Untimely death them took, and Fortune grim hath down oppressed. He giveth unto the little children their chamber apart, and appointeth their dwelling at the entering in of hell, the which he describeth more horrible and fearful, saying. Yet sits a worse within, Than hell itself that sinkehole s●eepe, Two times as broad descends, two times as headlong down right deep Hell. A●●c. li 6 As heaven upright is high, if men thereto from thence might peep. Over and besides these two places, he addeth yet two others, to weet, Purgatory, and the fields E●seas, of which we will speak off hereafter when his turn cometh. Now all these which are lodged in those divers chambers, are handled every one of them according to their merits, and punished after divers sorts. For the torments and pains are given unto them either more grieu●ns and cruel, or else more tolerable & gentle, according to ●uery one's mirites and deserts. He putteth and placeth a large prison, deep, and dark, horrible and fearful, in the most lowest part of hell, from which those shall never departed which once have been thrown therein. That prison is the very hell itself, wherein the great and most grievous sins and offences are punished, and that they are insanable and can by no means be purged, as these: sacrilege, murder, tyranny, vyolences, erecrable whoredom, and such other crimes, and chiefly those of the Tyrants, Kings, Princes and Lords, whom Plato of which In Gorgia. the sins of the prince's and tyrants. proceeded this Philosophy, lodged all in hell, if in sléede to be good Princes and Pastors, they have been tyrants, and the devourers of the people. Thomas. I do already here perceive a great agreeing with our Priests and Monks. As concerning the Limbs of the little children, there is no more difference, but that Virgile putteth them all there, and our priests do not lodge & put but those which are dead without being baptised. hilarius. He is not so rude and ungentle unto them. For he depriveth them not of all joy and consolation, as these our priests do the poor little children of the Christians. Thomas. As touching hell I do not much mistyke the opinion of Plato. First because it approacheth nigh to the verity of the holy Scriptures, and that he declareth the just judgement of God upon the tyrants. For it is good reason, sith that there is none who may chastise & correct them in this world, and that they will not be in subjection neither to God nor man, but do what they list, they should have double punishment in the other world: And that they should vomit and spew up again their great cruelties, vyolences, and great enormities that they have committed, because they feared neither justice nor punishment. Theophilus. Although that the witness of the holy Scriptures is sufficient for us, yet this aught further to move us, & to confounded the Infidlls when The ver●●e of. the tru●●. we do see the virtue of the truth to be so puissant and of such force that it constraineth Philosophers, Poets and others, who have been ignorant of the knowledge of God, to confess it and to bear witness thereof. Thomas. But me thinks that our Priests and Monks do much differ from Plato & Virgile in that they do lodge the richest people and the great Princes and Lords sooner in Purgatory then in Hel. hilarius. Do you not know the cause? The riches of Purgatory. There came no profit unto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory, as cometh unto those, & believe that although they had any profit, they were of a better conscience, and that for their own particular gain they would not have so seduced the poor ignorant people. For they do show forth by their writings, that they had a certain fear and knowledge of God, more than we may acknowledge in these our priests. For they watch after the dead bodies, as Plato and Virgle. the Ravens do upon carrion. And if they can meet with any dead man that hath his purse well stuffed with money, wherewith he is able to pay his ransom, they will be sure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat, they will put him in such a place, from whence he cannot come out before they have taken some fat from him. For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillars of the great The tyrants of tyrants, and the pillars of the usarers. pillars and Usurers, whom they will not suffer to be broiled and tormented of the Devils, but they will be their hangmen themselves, take away that office from them to whom God hath given it. Thomas. They shallbe then much tormented by this account. For they shallbe cruelly handled in this world, and also in the other after their death, as they have vexed b tormented the world whilst they were alive. And suffer them not notwithstanding to fall into the hands of the Devils. But I would gladly know what pain the other have that have committed smaller sins. hilarius. Plato and Virgile do lodge these in Purgatory, The Purgatory of Plato. In Gorgia. plutar. desera. muni. vind. The sins of the simple people. The sins of princes. especially the simple people & which have not been of great credit and authority. Wherefore they could not have so great licence to do evil as the others. And if they had committed any fault, they had not the power so much to hurt the people as the others had. For the sins of the Princes do not hurt only themselves: But as well by them as by their evil example they do hurt and destroy all the world, where the simple people do hurt but themselves. And therefore they did think that their sins were sanable, and that they might be purged. For that cause, they condemned them not unto eternal dampuation: For The differences of sins and the diversity of the estates of those that be dead they thought that they had not committed evils enough for to be damned, & that there was some remedy to be healed. Also they lodged them not at the first dash in the fields of bliseas, as the other great and virtuous men, who thorough their virtue have merited to be incontinently received into blessedness and toy, or in the number of Gods. Thomas. Those than which were good people, and which had not the power to do so evil as the other, do go into Purgatory against their wills. Nevertheless I am sure that God will not held them excused therefore. For ●e regardeth the heart, will and the affections, and not only the works as the Philosophers do. Our priests differ not much from that opinion. For they Cannonise & lodge among the Saints Cnnonization of the Saints. Extra. de. cele. miss. 13. q. 2. Tempus. those whom they do judge to have been most virtuous and holiest and the souls perfectly good, the which do fly strait into heaven, and have no need of our good deeds. hilarius. That is to weet the most greatest Hypocrites, superstitious and Idolaters, & those which have done most for them, and that have best nourished and fed their fat bellies. Thomas. They do lodge in Purgatory those who have not accomplished here their penance, which nevertheless died confessed and repentant, or which do not carry deadly sin with them, but only venial sins, the which may be purged by the fire. For there is some remedy for those. hilarius. Such is their doctrine: But notwithstanding when it cometh to trial, they neither have regard to mortal nor yet venial sins, but sooner to the riches or to the poverty. It is all one with them whether the sins be mortal or venial, sanable or insanable, so that the dead hath wherewith to pay their drougs & medicines, & money for his ransom, and letters of grace that they make for them by their bulls and pardons. And as touching the poor, of whom they have no profit, it is to them all one whether they go, be it into Paradise, Hell, or Purgatory. For they have no care of the souls, but only of their purses. Thomas. I have yet one thing to demand of thee. Do they say that there is fire in the Poet's Purgatory as there is in that of the priests? hilarius. It seemeth to me that the Poet's are a little more reasonable and more merciful than the priests and Monks. For they make not such broiling and roasting of the poor souls. Thomas. How then? hilarius. Because that they have assigned the pain a little easier and lighter, according to every one's misdeeds. For they condemn not all generally to the fire. But they do make three differences, The differences of sins and the diverlitie of the pains. according to the greatness and smallness of sins. Those that have sinned most grievously, and which are most full and stuffe● with sins, and which are most earthly and most hardest to be purged, being so hard glued and tied to the soul, that it cannot be plucked away, nor made clean by no means but thorough the fire, are put and cast into the hot furnace. For they must be melted all new again. The other that are not altogether so filthy & vile and that have not their sins so glued in the soul that one cannot pull them away, are held for a certain time within the great goulfes of water, for to be there washed and made clean. There are yet others that are less faulty and guilty, & which have committed but certain small sins, that hath no need of such strong purgation. And therefore they are hanged but a little in the air for to wind them. For they need but to have a little wind for to blow away the dust that The diversity of purgations cleaveth fast to the soul, because of the conjunction that it hath with his body and his flesh. Thomas. As far as I perceive they do with the souls in that purgatory as we do with our apparel, sheets, vessel and metal. For when we have any clotheses, or sheeets that are dusty, or whereof we doubt the Moths and Worms: we stretch them abroad and hung them upon a perch in the air for to wind and clean them. And if there be any spot or stain that will not easily come out, we wash them with water. And if that sufficeth not, we soap them, or put them in the buck and buck them, or else deliver them to the scourers for to take out the steyne. Also if we have metal that is rusty and cankered & which hath need to be made clean, we cast it in the fire, which maketh it very clean and consumeth the dross and rust and other false metal, and separateth it from the pure and fine metal. hilarius. Thereby you may know that the Poets have had more wit and reason and better colour so to do then the Priests. For they have considered the nature of the sins, and of the sinners together, as a good Physician The Physicians of the soul. doth behold the completion of those that are sick, for to give unto every one a convenient and sit remedy for his disease. For they have regard that man's body was made of the four Elements, and that the completion and the affections of man do follow the temperateness of the body, and the nature of the elements, of which they were made. Forasmuch then as the body is the house and habitation of the soul, & that the soul hath been held within that earthly body as in a prison, and dark dungeon, it is impossible, but that it is corrupted and defiled with the filthiness of that infectious body, as he which shall departed out of an infectious and stinking prison. And therefore Plato and the other Philosophers and Poets, which followed his opinion, have thought, that the souls had need of some purgation, after that they were separated from the body, because that after their departing, it was impossible but that they should carry with them and keep some filthiness of that corrupt flesh, because of the conjunction, conversation and familiarity, that they had together. Nevertheless because that the bodies are not all of one complexion, but according to the disposition and temperateness of the elements, of which they are made, some are more earthly and other some more heavenly, & according to the doctrine that they have received, and the exercise that they have had in virtue, some more vicious or virtuous than the others: Even so have they esteemed and thought that the souls did differ, according to the difference of the bodies from which they came out. They have then considered that there are some sins that are more thin, easy & lighter than others, holding more of the nature of the air, and of the wind, then of the earth. And therefore they must purge them by the element, which approacheth nearest to their nature, and which seemeth for them the best remedy. The others that are more heavy and weighty, as the water is more heavier and wayghtyer than the air and wind, are washed in the water: For they do hold most of the nature of the water. And therefore they put them in the buck, wherein they drive, beaten and wash them very clean. Besides those there are other more wayghtyer and heavier and altogether earthly, whom neither the wind nor the water can make clean. And therefore the Souls that have been so defiled with the filthiness of their vile & wicked body, & so much given unto the pleasures of the body, that they are almost degenerated & become earthly, are purged by the fire. For they have need of a hotter & stronger element for to purify them, and for to consume all filth and dross, that there remain nothing but the pure metal of the celestial nature. For contraries are healed by contraries. But lest you should think that I am the author and inventor of that Philosophy, and that I speak these things of mine own head and for my profit, behold how the Poet speaketh, in whose verses you shall find comprised in few words a great part of that Platonical & Plutarchall Theology, where he writeth of the souls separated from the body after this manner. Moreover, when their end of life, and light doth them forsake. Virg. Aene. 6. Purgatory. Yet can they not their sins, nor sorrows all poor souls of shake. Nor all contagions fleshly, from them voydes, but must of need Much things cogendred long, by wondrous means at last out spread. Therefore they plagued been, and for their former faults and sins Their sundry pains they bide, some high in air doth hung on pins. Some fleeting been in floods, & deep in gulfs themselves they tire Till sins away be washed, or cleansed clear with purging fire. Each one of us our penance here abides, than sent we be To Paradise at last, we few fields of joy do see. The fields ●liseas. Till compass long of time, by perfect course hath purged quite, Our former cloddred spots, and pure hath left our ghostly spirit And senses pure of soul, and simple sparks of heavenly light. Thomas. I do think that the Alcumistes have taken their foundation upon that Philosophies. For that is the true manner for to extract the fift essence. But I think that those Phisiciens of the souls had need to see their urine for to make them better know their complexion, and to give unto them the medicine and purgation meet for the same. Hill●●ins. It should be then needful that the Souls that are in Hell and in purgatory should aswell have, Esculapius or Cosme and Daiman for their Phisitious, as the Gods and Saints have in heaven, and by a The physicians and paticaries of hell. better reason. For the Gods and the Saints have no more need neither of medicine nor of purgation as the poor souls have that are kept in Purgatory. I know not how the ancient Poets and paynim have given unto Mercury the office of Physic, for to practise his medicines in Mercury. Hell, with which he guideth the souls, for to make them to pass over the floods by Charon the ferry man: For he had been very meet and proper for the souls. Thomas. But when they shall have a Physician, who shall be their Apothecary, for to make their drouges? hilarius. The Priests, which have their shops full, The purging drougs of the paynim. and are better furnished with them then ever the paynim were, which had chief three sorts of drougs, for the purgations as well of the quick as the dead, the which Ovid hath comprehended in three words, saying: Three times the old man washed was, with Water fair & clear ovid. And with hot fire and Sulphur strong, he purged doth appear. Besides these purgations of the water, fire, & brimstone, Cuperent lustrari si qua darentur Sulphura cum t● di●, a u● si sores humida laurus. they had also their holy winnowinge or faminge, which they used chief at the feasts and sacrifices of God Bacchus, the which they made with a fan consecrated for that purpose. Theophilus. Behold the dreamings wherein men do fall, yea the most wisest, when they give themselves The holy fanning of Bacchus to play the Philosopher with heavenly things after their own fantasy and mind without the spirit of God, and that they do seek the purgation of their sins in their purgatories, besides jesus Christ. Thomas. Me thinks that we do yet retain almost all those customs. For we do light and offer torches, tapers and candles of Wax, as well for the dead, as for those that are alive. And the first thing that we must have, when one dieth, are the torches to lead him to high grave. And all the year after we must have Candles lighted upon his Sepulchre, and after to offer them unto The torches & lights at the burials. the Priests. hilarius. It is because they see not. Thomas. Whom do you mean? the Priests or those that be dead? hilarius. Both the one & the other. We cannot deny but that the dead bodies have lost their sight, & that they are in darkness, as touching their body. But nevertheless the shining and brightness of the torches Virg. Cassum lumine lugent. serveth them to no purpose. I think also that the soul hath no need of them. For if it go into Paradise, it hath the Angels to carry it thither, as the soul of Lazarus was carried by the Angels into Abraham's bosom. For that Luc. 16. 2. 〈◊〉 hath light enough and the Angels also with the brightness of God. Wherefore they have not to do with our light, that cannot serve for the soul, but for the body only. If the soul go into hell, there are guides enough for to bring it thither, and it is not now necessary that we do give light to it. It hath the Angels of Satan altogether contrary to the other Angels to carry it thither. Thomas. But if it go into Purgatory, for that it is so deep, hath it no need of light for to conduct them through those dark places? hilarius. If that which they say be true, there is fire enough, without putting any more unto it. And if that fire be not sufficient for them, I think that the light of our torches cannot give light there. For if the Sun beams and his brightness cannot enter and pierce through, what may we hope of our fire? You may then understand by these reasons that all these lights serve nothing at all for the dead, nor profit them, neither for the body nor yet the soul. It must be then that they do profit the Priests, or else it is a lost labour. But wherein can they serve for them? For if they be blind, and that the Sun light helpeth them not, no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candles. If they do see clear enough, they have no need: for the clearness of the Sun aught to suffice them: except they buried them in the night, as the paynim did bury the poor that had not money to pay for their funeral pomp. Thomas. It must then be that they are either mad The burying of the poor in the night. & out of their wit, or else that they would show by the same, that those that do such things are fools and deprived of all understanding. hilarius. I think that they would do In Apotheg. Diogenes. as Diogenes did, who at noon days lighted a candle, and did seek for men in the middle of the Market with a lantern. Thomas. To what purpose did he the same? hilarius. For to make men to understand, that they were beasts without reason and understanding, and that he had much a do to find men, that is to say, wise men, both of wit and judgement, although he sought them with a lanterns. Should he not have more occasion to do the same now at this present time? For to what end do all those lights serve, but for to declare that we are the successors The imitation of the paynim. of the paynim who after the same sort used torches, and candles at the burials and funerals of their dead? For we have not read in all the holy Scriptures that ever the true servants of God have lighted candles for the dead. Nor that they were ever in such superstition. Also we need not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith we The holy water. sprinkle the graves of the dead, is also taken of the imitation of the paynim. Theophilus. I doubt it not. It is very true, that the ancient The baptisms. and washinges of the ●hvish people levit. 16. c. Nomb. 19 a. 4 Heb. 9 d. 13. people of God had certain washings & certain baptisms, for their purifications: not that they did think that the filthiness and uncleanness of the soul & conscience, could be washed & made clean, by the water & corruptible Elements. For sith that the soul is a spirit, it must have a spiritual purgation, agreeing to his nature, and not corporal. Thomas. What profit then do they receive of such ceremonies? Theophilus. They did the same for to testify & witness that they were sinners, polluted & unclean, and that they had need of a purgation, the which they could not find in themselves, but must seek it of others. Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselves sinners, and in making open confession by those exterior and outward washings, and do witness that the blood of jesus Christ was necessary for them for the washing away of their sins, they pleased by that obedience and confession, God, and by the faith that they had in jesus Christ, ●figured by those ceremonies and sacraments, whom they did look for to be their Saviour. They did truly communicate the blood of jesus, which for them aught to have been shed, as we do by the baptism, saving but that we had all things more excellent than they. But we do not find that they ever baptised the dead, nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with conjured Water. hilarius. We read that the heathen Priests used in their purgations, the water of the sea, with which they sprinkled that which they would purge: Proclus de sacrif. & mag. Salt water. The property of Salt. Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yieldeth the reason, saying that such water hath the property to purge, because it is salt, and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire, and holdeth somewhat of his Nature. That same maketh me to think that our Priests for that same cause did put salt in their holy Water. For before they did conjure the Water, they did first conjure the salt, and after did put it into the Water. Thomas. They did it after the example of Eliseus. Theophilus. But Eliseus did not cast the salt into the The exemple of Eliseus. 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 De consecr. dast. 3. cap. Aquam. water, for to conjure the Devils there with, but hath done it for to purge and make it clean, because that it was infected and poisoned, so much that none could drink of it. And notwithstanding that Eliseus did put salt in it, yet nevertheless the salt of his nature had not the property to correct and amend the corruption of the Water, if the virtue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously: As it is declared by the applications of the things, which jesus The spittle of jesus Christ. Mar. 7. d. 3● Christ used, as in putting the spittle upon the tongues of those that were dumb, for to make them speak: or upon the eyes of the blind, for to make them see: or within john. 9 a, 6 the ears of those that were deaf for to make them hear: not because that he could not do that without such applications, as he hath very well declared in a The applications of jesus Christ. great many other of his works: For how oftentimes hath he healed them in touching them only, either by ●at. 6. a 3 Mat. 9 〈…〉 Mar. 5. c. 29 the hand, as the lepers, or by the gown, as the woman which was diseased with the issue of blood, and others, without either seeing or touching them, as the son of the Centurion: Mat. 8. a. 5 But even as thereby he would declare that all proceeded from his virtue and power, & not of the creatures. Also sometime he used them for to let us to understand, that when he would they should serve, he gave them such virtue and property as it pleaseth him, & for to learn us that we aught not to despise the means that he hath The means of God. given unto us, how vile soever our reason judgeth them to be. For whatsoever they may be, so that he hath ordained them, and that we have his promise, we must not doubt but by them he doth that which he hath promised. Therefore he hath taken things, which had not of their own nature the virtue to bring to pass those effects, to which they have been applied, that all men might know, that from him only proceeded the virtue, and not of any ordinary or natural cause. But these miraculous works, are nothing at all like unto those which our Priests do: and their ceremonies, have not such promises. If by that they could remedy she corrupt waters, as Eliseus did, we will acknowledge the gift to work miracles to be in them which was in Eliseus. But to what end serveth the salt in the water? hilarius. To what end serveth it to be put into the Infants salted. The salt in the Baptism. mouths of the little children, when they baptise them? Theophilus. As much as their spittle profited the infants being put into their mouths, upon the tongue and upon the ears. hilarius. Me thinks that I do see Apes, which would counterfeit all the works of jesus Christ: Apes that counterfeit jesus Christ. At the lest wise all their doings are as those of the Apes, which doth but little and yet evil. If they could by their spittle make the little children and those that are dumb The spittle of the Priests. speak: or make the blind see, and the deaf hear, I would counsel them to use it often: But if I had a little child, I would not have that such swinish & pocky merchants as are among them should breathe over his face, nor put their spittle in his mouth. They do call their salt, the salt of wisdom: And in steed to season us & to make us wise through the salt of the word of God: They salted us in the throat at The salt of wisdom. Accipe sal sapientiae. The salt of god's word. The salt of the priests. the baptism. I think that they feared that the wine would not abide drinking, & that we should not be good bibbers. Wherefore they would season us in good time. I believe that they greatly feared lest we should become Turks, and lest we should cast up the wine, if they salted not well the throat, as men do unto their sheep. If they could with their salt make the fools to become wise, I would The seasoning of fools. think it good to salt all the foolish people as men do salt the fat lard, throughout all the body not only in the throat. Thomas. I would not give the counsel. For then the salt would wear very dear, if Saloman hath said true, writing, Eccle. 1. that the number of the fools are infinite. Hlilarius. Thy reason is good. For the inconvenience which thou speakest off would follow, and an other more greater: To wéet, that S. Maturyn who healed the fools, should lose his occupation: Besios' that I believe that the salt, although there Saint Ma●●in. be great quantity & store of it, will not much profit the soul's when the Priests do mingle them with the Water. For the disease is very incurable. But for to return to our Priests, I do believe that of that salt & Water, they would make such pottage for the souls, as my Mother did pottage for the souls. once make for herself & for me & my little brother which were not much above twelve or xiij. years of age, without putting into it either Oil or Butter, because that she would have us to fast with her with bread & water: For if there had been any fatness in the broth or pottage, it had not been a perfect fast. If it be so, our Priests on this side the sea, which devil far from it, should have better colour & cause to salt & season the water, than those that devil hard by it. For if they would make pottage for the souls, they shall find enough of such sodden Water in the sea, & they shall not need to seek after the example of Eliseus for to make him their Author: For he was never such a Cook: But Alexander. 1 the first inventor of holy water. they must give the honour of that invention unto Pope Alexander the first of that name. For if they will purge the dead through water, I would give them counsel rather platine in vit. Alex. 1. de consecra. dist. 3 cap. aquam. The baths of the dead. to wash them altogether with hot Water, as the paynim did there's, and call that washing the last bath or washing, even as our Priests do call their last an cling or unction, the latter Sacrament: In which they do herein differ from the paynim, that they anointed men a little before they die, & the paynim anointed them afterwards. Wherefore their unction was a little more latter. But lest you should think that I speak without authority, as many Divines and Preachers do, when they do preach their own fables and dreams, I will bring out first for mine Authors that ancient Poet Ennius, saying. Ennius. When death with dreadful dart, bereft, king Tarquin of his life His body washed and anointed was, by hands of his own wife. And Virgile speaking of the burning of Misenus, saith: Some brought the Water warm, in Caudrons hot they set in flower Virg. Aene. 6 The body cold they wash, a precious ointment on they power. If the water could any thing profit the dead, it were better to make for them a great bath, & to plunge all their body, in a great tub of Water, and to wash them well for a good space, then to sprinkle them so little. For me seemeth that that manner of doing is more proper for to kindle the fire of Purgatory, if the Water doth descend thither, then for to quench it. And the same I will prove by authority and by examdle. I will first prove it by the authority of many good Physicians, which say that when a man is very dry for want of drink, it is better for him to drink a good draft at once then to sip often: For that same doth not quench the heat that is in the body, but kindleth it the more. And to the end that The examples of the Smiths. it do not seem that they speak that without reason, they do also allege the example of the Smiths, the which I will bring forth for my second argument, which is infallible, inasmuch as it is always confirmed by experience. For we see that when they would have their To what end serveth the washing of the dead bodies. coals burn well, and to give great heat they sprinkle them with water, which they have always ready, with a little sprinkle or bosom, as the Priests have them in their holy water stock. There is yet an other reason, for which I do find the manner of the paynim better and more lowable, because that at the leastwise that shall serve for the dead, for to prove whether they be dead or not: For it Those that are alive reputed to be dead. chanceth oftentimes through some disease, that the spirit is so locked and enclosed in the body, that man loseth altogether his breath, in such sort that one can by no means perceive it, but judgeth him to be dead, and so he is deceived. By that means sometimes some have been buried quick: The which thing aught very much to be feared in all suffocations and choke, and chief of the matrice Suffocations. of women, and also in the time of the pestilence or plague: wherein many times it hath been found that they The time of pestilence. have brought to be buried those who were found alive. Wherefore it is not meet to bury any dead body to sudden, especially when he dieth suddenly. For that may very well sometime happen unto man, which we have proved in some beasts, namely in the Dormouse, which have been The Dormouse. found so fast of sleep in the Winter, that it is not possible to awake them: As it hath been many times proved in some of them, who although they were cut a sunder in the middle did not wag nor stur until such time as they are put into hot seething water. And to that end and purpose many Plini. Nat hist. li. 7. cap. 52. Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 8 A. Auiola L. Lam●a. Historiographers and namely Pliny maketh mention of one Attilius Auiola, & Lucius Lamia, that after that their bodies were cast upon the wood for to be burned after the custom of the ancient Romans, did stand right up when they felt the heat of the fire, and there tarried still. For none could secure & help them because the fire was kindled about them, but were burned all alive. Thomas. Those have no need to go into purgatory. For they have been purged enough already. hilarius. For the cause the paynim did not burn the bodies of those that died incontinently, but kept them seven days, and washed them in hot water, and bewailed and lamented them with a loud voice many times, as we Singing after the dead. do unto those that do sound or faint, when any faintness of heart hath taken them. And after when they have bewailed them the last time, they do burn them the eight day, and the ninth day they bury their ashes. For that cause do they also celebrated the nine days feast for the soul of the dead. Thomas. If that which you speak off be true, we do but a little differ from them. For our priests do cry after them with so loud a voice, that if they be not deaf or altogether dead, they would awake. hilarius. There is no difference, but that we are more foolish & more mad than the paynim. For the paynim do not cry after the dead, but until they are burned and their ashes buried: But our Priests do cry after them over their Tombs and sepulchres, twenty, thirty, forty, yea a hundredth years after their death, and although they are altogether consumed to dust. But I find them a great deal wiser and better advised in that matter, for that they do sprinkle their sepulchres with water only, and not with wine, as the paynim that did shed out great abundance of wine, and milk upon the sepulchres, and To offer wine for the dead. more liberally than those do the holy water. Thomas. They were very fools, do they think that that wine descendeth into Purgatory, for to give drink to the souls of the dead, or the bodies that were in the sepulchres? hilarius. We are as much fools if we do think that the holy water, wherewith we sprinkle the sepulchres and Churchyards, doth descend into Purgatory for to quench and put out the fire. For when the priest maketh his Asperges in the Mass, and in casting the holy water upon the people, if he do see any that putteth not of his cap or bonnet for to receive that holy conjured and charmed water, he crieth out upon him and calleth him Lutherian and Heretic. Nevertheless if their holy water had such strength to penetrate and go thorough into Purgatory, it is marvel if it cannot aswell pierce and go thorough a cap or bonnet, without putting it of the head. Thomas. From whence think you that that manner to To sprinkle the sepulchres with water. sprinkle the Scpulchers with water did first come? hilarius. Truly I know not: except it be done in steed that as the paynim after the burning did sprinkle with water all those that were there present, for to purify them The purifications at the funerals. from the pollution and filth that they might receive, in approaching nigh the dead: with which they did think themselves defiled. And in steed that the paynim did purify those that be alive, our Priests will purify those that be dead, and when they are upon the earth and under the earth: Or peradventure that custom first came or took his beginning, for that the paynim did deck and To beautify the sepulchres with flowers. beautify their sepulchres with goodly flowers. Afterwards they sprinkeled them with water, to make them continued the longer fresh and sweet. The which is used at The custom of the Bigordains. Bag●teres. Ratio divi off. de offi. mor. li. 7. Reiserspeeg. Sermo dominie. 20 post Trinita. this day in the country of Bigore, in the City of Bagnieres hard by the hills Pyrenes: And among some other Christians, aswell in Almaigne as in other countries, who do put hats or garlands of flowers, either of Bay or of ivy within the beer under the body of the dead, because they should keep a long time their verdure and sweetness. But because peradventure you may desire the witness of all these things, which I have now declared unto you of the paynim, I would that you should hear them speak themselves, as already before we have done it, translating word for word their Latin verse into English rhyme, to the end that they may keep the better their stile. Mark well then the Prince and chief of the Poets, touching the cries and lamentations that they make after the dead, speaking after this manner of the burying of Polidorus. And holy blood in basins brought, we pour and last of all Virg. Aen. 3. We shright, and on his soul our last with great cries out we call. And as touching the effusion of the wine, the sprinkling of the water and of flowers, the which he hath comprised altogether, mark what he saith at the funerals of Misenus. ●Hen fallen his cinders were, and longer blaze did not endure Aene. 6. His relics & remain of dust, with wines they washed pure. Then Choryney his bones, in brazen coffin bright did close And sprinkling water pure, about his mates three times he goes. And drops of sacred dew, with olive palms on them did shake, And compass blest them all, and sentence last he sadly spoke. Requieseant in pace. To fields of joy thy soul, and endless rest we do betake. And in an other place speaking of the Anniversary that Aeneas did for his father Anchises saith. ●E from the counsel came with thousands thick in mighty throng Virg. Aene. 9 Unto his father's tomb, in mids of all his Princes strong. Two bowls of blessed wine, in solemn guise he cast on ground, And milk in basins twain, about the tomb he poured round. And twain of sacred blood, than all the grave he spread & laid, With flowers of purple hews, and thus at last full loud he prayed. Thou hast herded the words of the Poet, or at the lest the sense of them, which have given me occasion to think that which I have told unto thee. Nevertheless it may be that our priests have invented that manner to sprinkle the sepulchres with water, for to spare the wine, the which they had rather drink then to shed it, and they will not be so prodigal in spending the wine so much as they do the water. Thomas. We do not spare it therefore. For we are compelled to give drink to the souls all the year. hilarius. We are the more fools: But our Priests are wiser than the paynim. For they have no regard to give the soul's drink, nor to pour it upon the earth, for to sprinkle the sepulchres: but do pour it into their bellies, and sprinkle their consciences, and will keep the law of Numa ky●e of the Romans, saying: Do The ●●w of Numa. not pour out the wine upon the ashes and sepulchres of Vino rogum ne respergito. the dead. Thomas. They are then the lieutenants of the souls, but I would have no such Lieutenants at my table. I had rather to give them charge to fast for me, then to eat, & had rather have them héerem my Lieutenants. But let us also speak of the wynnowing that you have set forth for the third manner of Purgatory, the which the ancients had and used. I know not whether we use them towards the dead: But I have seen them used towards those that be alive. I have seen them used towards those that be alive. I have seen the priests to wind the women and little children with the platine, mesel and corporal clot in the Mass. But I know not to what end the Demostb. in Aes● chi. Virg. Georg. 1. Et mistica vannus Ia●●bi. wind can serve for the soul's in Purgatory, but for to blow their fire. hilarius. I would counsel them to have a Fan, as the paynim had, which was made holy for to make their holy winnowing. When I have throughly considered it, I do think that our Priests and Monks cannot give so good reason of y● that they do, as the paynim. And for to tell the truth, me thinketh that they are like unto those Emperiques, that have but one receit for all Emperiques. diseases and complexions, for all ages, times and countries, who do kill more than they do heal: or for to make the comparison Melters. more proper, they make me to remember those Surgeons which do grease those that have the gout and the pocks, whom they 'cause all to pass thorough their furnace, for to melt them all anew. Theophilus. Sigh that they despise and contemn the The Purgatory of those that have the pox. Gospel, and that by the same they will not be made new creatures, forsaking their old Adam, & the concupiscence of their flesh, it is good reason, that they have such Smiths and melters for to make them new again. And sith that men do make no punishment. God through his just judgement will make them to feel that fire, for to quench the fire of concupiscence which burneth in their heart and veins, if they can consider it, which is for their profit, and to draw them from their whoredom. Thomas. Men have The diet. now found out, that they can heal thorough the diet without melting them. hilarius. I do greatly fear, that if our Priests & Monks learn none other occupation and science, & that they find out none other drougs for to purge sins, that they shall not find hereafter any great trade, but shallbe constrained to make the diet themselves, and the Alchemy with their teeth, the which they do fear greatly. For men will give them so little to eat, that I greatly doubt that they need not to learn to fast and to live in more greater sobriety and abstinence, for to cool them a little. For sith that the fire hath begun to kindle with in their furnace, as Theophilus hath said, and that all is consumed and burned except hell, it is much to be feared that the register and rental of their revenues with all their rents The rental of Purgatory. that come unto them yearly of Purgatory be not altogether consumed and melted. I do think that there is no The Art for to teach the priests to be sober. better remedy for to correct their whoredom, & to learn them sobriety and to keep a good diet, then to take from them their Purgatory. Wherefore the soldiers were not altogether The salutation of the Soldiers unto the holy fathers evil advised, nor did not evil understand that matter, who answered to those holy fathers, in steed of a great curse when they saluted them, with their Pax vobis & pax sit huic Domini: Dominus auferat vobis Purgatorium. O holy father (say they.) They do pray that the Soldiers may have peace, and the Soldiers to the contrary do pray for them that God would take from them their Purgatory. And do show the reason. For we live say they by the war, as you do of purgatory, and you would take it from us, and give unto us peace. Wherefore we pray unto God that he would also take from you the Purgatory, and you shallbe as much estonished as we, and do think that you shall have no more to eat their we have. Thomas. You are of his opinion whom I demanded not long since the exposition of a place that is in the Gospel, Mat. 17 d●at To drive ou● Devils thorough fasting & prayer. in which jesus Christ speaking of him that was possessed with a Devil, whom his Disciples could not heal, says: This kind of devils cannot be driven out but by fasting and prayer. hilarius. What exposition doth he give unto thee upon the same? Thomas. That the Priests and Monks were of that kind of devils, that they cannot be driven away but by prayer and fasting, and therefore says he, give them nothing to eat, but let them fast as long as they have made you fast, and pray unto God for them. hilarius. Behold a very good receipt, the which will not cost very much at the Apothicaries. Theophilus. But we must not so jest and scoff with God's word. Thomas. Notwithstanding he that answered unto me so and unto many other that were present, was one of your people and one of your goodly gospelers. Theophilus. I deny not but that we have many such, which are good Carnal Gospelers gospelers in not giving any thing unto the Priests, nor yet in offering any thing unto them. But that is not sufficient: Sigh that they account the Priests and Moukes for Devils, I would gladly that they should practise with themselves that doctrine of jesus Christ, and that they would not be only gospelers in eating of flesh all days a like, and in not offering no more unto the Priests, nor unto their images: But that they would give themselves to pray unto God, to deliver his Church from false prophets and sheperdes, and for to provide true Priests that do confess and preach his gospel. And to the The fastings & prayers of the Christina's end that their prayers should be the more fervent & done with greater faith, I do also desire that they would live more soberly than they have done, and that they would fast after the manner of the true servants of God, for to be more attentive and fervent in their prayers, and that they would give alms unto the poor, of the goods of jesus Christ that men have stolen from his members, for to give them to the Priests. Thomas. I am of thy opinion. For as touching the riside we, I see that almost every one willbe come a gospeler in that point, that is in giving little unto the priests. But after all these matters, I would gladly that you would declare unto me, when and how the fire hath first begun in Purgatory, and since what time it is burned? Theophilus. Sithence that the Gospel of jesus Christ hath been preached by the Apostles. Thomas. Me thinketh that you speak against Hilary, How Purgatory is burned and all the catholic Church. For if it had been burned so long time agone, what Purgatory should the Priests have had sithence? Theophilus. You must understand, that since the ruins and decayed places thereof have been repaired and amended by them, as an old house that men do re-edify & amend, after that it is decayed. But sithence these thirty or twenty years, the fire hath begun to kindle again, and hath consumed and wasted it altogether. Therefore I do say, that either the holy father the preacher was never there, or else it is long time sithence: Wherefore he could not be advertised of the household that they keep there. Thomas. Then I pray you, wherefore is not Hell as well burned which is more dangerous, Hell & in which there is greater fire, then either in the Limb, or in Purgatory? Theophilus. If you had well understanded that which hath been already told you, I needed not now to satisfy again your demand. The Limb and Purgatory are burned because they were builded and set up with men's hands, who can make no work to continued any long time, but that it willbe rotten in long continuance, or else destroyed with the fire which consumeth all 2. Pet 3. d Hell and the pains of hell are eternal things. But hell is an other thing: there are very strong walls, which will continued for ever. For even as God, which is eternal hath builded with his own hand those goodly celestial palaces, and hath planted that pleasant and delectable paradise, for to receive his children and servants into the fruition and pleasure of the eternal life and felicity: So hath he constituted & appointed for to give unto the wicked according to their iniquity, and to punish them as a righteous judge for their execrable crimes & offences, the fire of Hell in which the worm dieth not nor the fire is never Mar. 9 g. 4 4 Esa, 66. g. 24 Esa. 30 g. 30. quenched. For as witnesseth the prophet Esay: The Lord doth breath forth, thorough the wound of his wrath & indignation, & doth cause the floods of Brimstone to flow out for ever, thorough his wrath and vengeance, insomuch that there is never fire there lacking. Thomas. But how hath the fire begun in Purgatory rather sitheus the time that you have spoken, than it did before? Theophilus. I do marvel that in this so long time it hath not been done, and how it could so long continued, considering the tyranny that was there exercised. For sithence that it was reedyfied and builded again, there went no more any into Paradise nor yet into Hell, but all tarried in Purgatory. There was neither poor nor rich but that all were put in there: and they could not be suffered to departed although that they had paid their ransom two or three times, especially when there is whereof to take. For there are such, that after they have been kept there already one or two hundredth years, yet they have been constrained to disburse yearly, daily and hourly new money, for to have bulls and pardons, for to have Masses, Vigiles, Requiems, Libera me, and for to celebrated Yereminds, anniversaries, for to pay obites, and a great many other sorts of gatherings, tributes and rents, that it is impossible to number them. hilarius. I think that there should be goodly and rich mines of gold & silver. I know not whether that fire hath melted & consumed it all together. For there was in times past great store, that almost all the gold and silver of the world, and all the riches and treasures of the Christians are all go thither. The paynim held Pluto for the God of hell and of riches, because they thought him to devil in Pluto. those low countries, to which the souls did go: and because that all the treasures and riches do come from the earth, and that one shall find th●r the mines of gold and of silver. But the more I do think on the folly of the paynim, so much the more do I find ours to be out of reason, saving that we have in deed that which they had but in figure and imagining. For we have the Pope which is the very Pluto. For he hath both Hell and Paradise to cell. He is king of Hell, Limb and of Purgatory. He is Aeacus, Minos, and Radamantus. For he judgeth the ●oore souls, as it pleaseth him, and condemneth them to the Limb, Purgatory or in hell when it pleaseth him, & as often as he seeth good. And God knoweth what mines of gold and silver, what treasures & goods he draweth unto him: in such sort that we may very well call him Pluto, Mammon, God of the earth and under the earth, king of Hell and of all his territories. The more I consider the thing, so much the more it maketh me astonished. For I have read many histories which make mention of many Tyrants and great thieves, which have been covetous and raveners without all measure: But I know not, whether a man shall find many, or To demand tribute of the dead. one only that hath caused tribute to be paid by the dead, as be doth daily among the Christians. If one shall find any, I believe at the lest that he hath not so long compelled the dead to pay tribute. We may very well say that among the Christians is accomplished the proverb of the ancients, who speak of those that with wrong & violence Aristo. li. 2 R●eto. go about to have and catch, they demand tribute of the dead and the meal and flower of Images: willing also by that kind of speaking, to rebuke those that will enrich themselves by unhonest & unlawful means, & which do seek profit of those small & vile things, as the Emperor Vespasian, who caused tribute to be paid of the urine: and of vile things, as of bawdry, even as the Pope did that received tribute of whores and of brothel houses that are at Rome. One may also speak it of those that get money of all men, without any difference either of friends, poor or Sueto in ve●●as. Tribute of urine & of the stews. of the beggars, and in the end, of those that are dead. But that Proverb could never be better applied, then to our Priests and Monks. Vespasian although he was otherwise a good Emperor, hath been taxed of covetousness for that tribute that he received of the urine. And when his son Titus who was ashamed, Vespasian & Titus S●● to in Vespas. admonished him, he caused him to smell at his nose the money he received, afterward asked him, whether he did smell the urine? When Titus had answered him, that no, he said unto him then? All savour is good so that money do come. The savour of the gain is good which way soever it do come and of what thing soever it ●ix●i bonus odor exre qu●● libet. B●●ry savour is good so that money come. be. Our Priests have kept well that proverb and know very well to practise it. For notwithstanding that the dead carrens of whom they take money, do stink, it sufficeth them so that the money doth not stink. The Roman Princes have been in the old time much despised, The avarice of the Romans Necrocorinth●a. for that they have digged up the monuments of the Corinthians, and have carried away their Images and pictures of brass. But what shall men say of these here? They are not content with the dimes, prebends, benefices, rents and revenues that they have continually, but The Christians contributaries before they be born and after they be dead. we must give them new money daily, after that we be conceived in our Mother's belly, until an hundredth years after we be dead and more. If our Mother that beareth us do take any hurt because of her child, she shall make incontinently a vow unto some Saint, and shall 'cause Masses to be said, and shall bring money unto the Priest, and shall bind her son to keep the vow and to do the like when he cometh to age. Are we not already appointed to pay a ransom in our Mother's belly? Do we not begin to pay tribute, before we be born? Afterwards if the child be born? he shall not be baptised, nor can be a Christian, except you do Baptism. pay money. Behold the happy hour that we have immedeatly at the enteringe into the Church. Must the child be anealed and confirmed? he must pay, for they will not say only their hands upon him, nor he Confirmation shall not have the holy Oil & Cream, except that he have Confession Singing of Masses. ready money. Will he be confessed? he must pay. Will he have Masses & prayers said for him? he must pay. Will he receive the lords supper? he must buy jesus The Supper. Christ with ready money. Theophilus. Yet their money were but a small trifle and a thing of nothing, if that that they did, were according to God's ordinance: But it is altogether contrary. hilarius. Will he marry? he cannot be wedded Marriage. but that he must pay. Will he be a Priest? GOD To take orders. knoweth howo often he must put his hand into his purse before that he hath passed thorough all their orders. But after he will make the poor people pay for it. Doth he fall sick and will he be anealed? and have his last Sacrament? Extreme unction. he must pay. I do not know how, but that we may be all good Arithmeticians, although we have never seen Arithmetic nor yet casting of accounts. For we do practise all our life time no other Arithmeticians. & the school of Arithmetic. science with them. We need not to send our children unto Schoolmasters for to learn them to account, cifre and number. For they may learn very well with them. They will neither consecrated nor conjure not so much as a stone, chalice, candle, or a drop of water, they will not so much as lift up their hand for to make a cross and bless but with two fingers without putting out all their hand, without some hope of gain. They will not so much as to bless a root, a grain of The blessings of the missal, the Portus and of the Manuel of the Priests. Benedictio ●ladi, salis, & ovorum Benedictio rasurni. Benedictio pera & baculi. Benedictio anuli & lecti. Benedictio panis, et seminum. Benedictio domus nou●. Benedictio easula. Benedictio ad omnia. salt, or of wheat, an egg or a morsel of chief, or a root when one would seeth it, or the scrip or hooked staff of a Pilgrim, when he would go on his voyage, or the ring or the bed of one that is wedded, but that they must have some thing. Thomas. They do meddle with a great many of things if they do all that. hilarius. Their Missels, Portesses and Manuels' may bear witness, if you will not believe me. But you may well perceive and know that they have not innented all those manner of doings, but thereby the better to get money every where, the which they get very easily and without any great travail, but only in making of crosses, and mumblinge some words after the manner of enchanters. But into what danger I do cast myself? I had rather to draw out all the water of the sea, then to declare all the manner of the pillings that they do unto us. The Historiographers do account as detestable crimes the tributes, and unhonest gains, the rapines and extortions that the Tyrants and Roman The rapines and extortions of 〈◊〉 the Emperor Caligula. Sueto. Tranq. in Calig. The pride of Caligula. Emperors have exercised, chief Caligula & Nero: But these here will justify them and account them for good men in respect of them, if that time should continued a little longer. It is written of Caligula (who was so bold that he would be worshipped as God, & hath builded a temple in his honour during his life) that he spared neither joseph. Anti. li. 18. ca 15. man nor any thing whatsoever it be, to the which he hath Tribute of victuals and of process. not laid some tribute. He received certain tribute of all manner of victual that are sold in the City. There was neither plaint, process, cause nor judgement, of which he took not the forty part of the sum for which the controversy was, insomuch that if the plaint had been forty thousand crowns, he would take a thousand for his part. He receiveth Tribute of get p●nce and of harlots. the eight part of the gain that the poor get pennies, iangellers, log carriers, and other like did daily get. Also the common harlots and whores must not only pay unto him when & as often as they did commit whoredom, but did also compel those that before time used that occupation, & which had been whoremongers and bawds: and not content with Tribute of marriages. that, did receive tribute of those that are married. The players also of cards and dice were not exempted. But which Tribute of plaiing at cards & dice. is more, he caused to be builded & set up houses for whores for to make his revenues the greater. Thomas. Behold most vile, excecrable and most unworthy things, I say not of an Emperor, but of the most wickedest man in the whole world. That is much worse than to recover tribute of urine and piss. hilarius. If you think that to be unworthy for a heathen Emperor, what may you judge of the Pope and his officers, if they do the like, yea, or rather worse? You have already heard how that there is neither poor man nor rich, of whom they have not got money every way and daily. And if you will know what tribute they receive of the victuals they cell, you must ask the Italians, The papistical tribute of the vi●●a●les. who can tell by experience. I do believe that Caligula never used such cruelty as Pope Clement used, altogether contrary to his name, who in the time of dearth The cruelty of Pope Clement and famine, seeing that the poor people had not any other thing to eat then herbs, of which they made salads for to nourish and feed them, the better to show forth his clemency, pity & compassion that he had of the poor people of Italy being much oppressed with hunger, caused to make their salt dearer, and set a talon upon it, to the end that they could not eat a salad but that they must pay tribute. But Dispensations for to eat flesh and milk do we not daily see the money that they get unto them, for to dispense with those that would eat flesh & all such meats as are made of milk, against their decrees? These are marvelous sellers of victuals and Bouchers, that receive money of flesh, eggs, milk, butter and cheese, and do never distribute any thing. And of their plaintés and process, doth there come unto them small gain? And at Rome, Boulong●e and other City's subject unto the Pope, hath he not officers Phil. Beroal. in Sueto Caig. Tribute of whores Prafecti bull tarum. and other City's subject unto the Pope, hath he not officers and magistrates that receive monthly tribute of whores and of those women that are forsaken? which are commonly called the Popes pardoners. Theophilus. The Lord by Moses hath forbidden that one shall not offer the hire of an whore nor the price of a Dog. But those are not disdainful. At the least wise they Deut. 23. c. 18 Alexander Severus emperor lampi id in Alexand. did as the Emperor Alexander, who did forbidden that such tributes should not be put into the treasure of the temple, nor of the common wealth. hilarius. I do also think that those do not put in much, and that the Bishops do not enrich very much the treasures of the Church, with the tributes that they have received of their whoremaster Priests for suffering them to have their concubines, whom they love a great deal better, then if they were honester men. For they should not have so much gain. But I think that the Pope who is the great prince and captain of the bawds aught also to compel the Bishops who are the The bishops Bawds to the priests. bawds, unto their Priests, to pay unto him tribute, of the tribute that they have got. But the thing might yet be more tolerable if they had but only rendered the tribute of the whores, to that they had exempted those that are married, of which they do receive no less money, as well of the process which their decrees and canons have engendered, as of the dispensations, as well for the espouses as of the degrees of consanguinity and other like things. It is also written of Nero, that he never gave any office to any person, but that he added and said. Thou knowest that I must have. Letting us to understand, that they must The selling of Offices. Nero. Sueto. Tran. in Nero. Scis quid mibi opus sit: & hoc aga●●s ne quis qui●qu●n habeat Alexander Emperor. pay. For he hath need of money: And after that sort he was the seller of offices and of Magistrates, which is a very unworthy thing for a good Prince. But the avarice and rapacite of Nero, nor the selling of offices were nothing in comparison of that which is in the Popish Church, in all offices and benefices. Theophilus. Alexander Severus a Roman Emperor how great a Panim soever he were, shall have good occasion at the day of judgement to rise against that generation. For he would never suffer that any should cell either honours or offices, speaking these words worthy to be remembered. It is necessary that he that buyeth do cell. Wherefore I will not suffer merchants of estates & offices. hilarius. Behold the words of a worthy Prince: Necesse est ut qui emit venda●. Ego non patior mareatores potestatum. But would to GOD that the Pope and his Popelinges did no worse than those Tyrants, and that they would suffer us at the lest to be at peace and rest after that we be dead, and that we might dye without paying any thing, sith that our lice hath cost us so much. But then that tyranny doth begin a fresh. Are we dead? we must first pay for the burial before we can be buried. The paynim had at the lest common churchyards for to bury in, for the poor mean people which did cost them nothing. The burial sold. But among the Christians, in many places it is not only lawful that the poor dead carcase should be covered with earth, except he do first buy the place and length and breadth of the ground in which he would be buried. And according to the sum thou givest, the place shallbe accordingly Grego. in Reg. jann. 〈◊〉. 1. ●a●. either little or great. If thou will't pay a great deal it shallbe lawful for thee to rot by the high Altar. If thou do 〈◊〉. 2. Qu●sta. Ib. d. ●●●ro in Gene●● 4. post. quam. & 〈◊〉. Tu●●a. In ecclesi ●●●o, & ca precipiendum. give but a little, thou shalt lie in the rain with the common people. And although men do offer unto them willingly money for the burial, yet they shall run into infainy and shame for taking it, and also their canons and d●cretalls as it appeareth by the ancient Doctors, doc forbio it expressly. But they d●e a great deal worse. For they say that it is their duty and right, and compel them to pay it. Theophilus. Ephron that heathen and barbarous man, offered willingly unto Abraham, being a stranger and not Ephron & ●braham. Gene. 23. b. 10. known, his field freely, for to bury his wis● Sar● in, and it was much ado ever he would be persuaded to rece●ue the money that Abraham offered him. But the Christian priests do cell the burial in other men's ground and which belongeth not to them: yea, & moreover they h●e out for money, as their own, that which is common to all. I would gladly that they were at the lest so honest men, as the Scribes Math 27. a. 〈◊〉 Act. 1. c. 18 and Pharisees; Bishops and Priests of Jerusalem, who bought with the money, that judas gave, them again, a field and possession for to bury the poor strangers, in ●lood whereof our Priests do cell the ground to their next neighbours. hilarius. I assure you without lying in any one word, that there was in the city of Obbe a poor Tailor, named A true history of our tyme. Gaspard. I think you know him. Who was so poor that he had much ado to live and who had so many pieces and patches in his cloak as there be days in the year. It was so péeced and patched with so many pieces one upon an other that it was rather like unto a brigantine, than a coat. His wife brought him forth a child that was Our lady of Lausanna & her miracles. born dead: he carried it unto our Lady of Lausanna, who did many goodly miracles: who raised to life those little children that were born dead, and after they must incontinently bury them. For after that she hath raised th●m to life, they cost their parents no more to nourish. That was a resurrection altogether differing from False miracles that of jesus Christ, and of those whom he hath raised, who did speak, walk, eat and drink after their resurrection, john. 11. e. 43. & 12 a. 2 Mar. 5. d. 42 Luc. 7. c 15 Act. 9 g 40 Act. 20. b. 9 as it appeared in Lazarus the brother of Martha, and of Mary: Also in the daughter of jarus, also in the son of the widow of Naim, also of Doreas raised by S. Peter. And Eutieus by Saint Paul. When the child had been a little time before the Idol, he stood up as the others did, and the miracle was done when it pleased the old woman that kept it. For there were also means to haste the The old women that do keep the children that be born dead. miracles. For when any did give a large drinking penny to the old woman she might the clearer or better know when the child changed colour or when he breathed or wagged. And that is soon found out as well there, as at our Lady of grace of Geneva, of those old women who dared say unto some that have brought of those children, when they will not give them to drink as they would, nor give them that they demand: The Devil of miracle that you shall have three days. Those are yet living who heard it, who can witness the truth. Wherefore I do conclude, that the old woman doth the miracles and not our Lady. Thomas. And hath that poor man Gaspard quenched their thirst? hilarius. I kmow not what he did. I think that when she saw him so beggarly, that she had some pity. But herein stood the question that when the child that was raised must be buried, then had he somewhat to do. For he must pay four or five groats for the burial: and I believe that he had not four farthinges for to pay his charge and expense. Nevertheless he could never agree with the Priests, but was constrained to carry his child to Orb, or otherwise he must bury him in the raw earth. For he could never have one foot of sodden earth. Thomas. What do you call sodden earth and raw earth? hilarius. Are you of that country & know not the Raw earth. language? Do you not know that our priests do call commonly raw earth that which is out of the churchyard, & which hath not been blessed & consecrated, that is to wéet charmed by them, as the same of their Church. If it be raw I conclude by contraries that the other is sodden. Thomas. And when he was at Orb, did he find the Priests more pitiful then at Lausannia? hilarius. God knoweth how that poor man was sifted and tried. They did think to eat him alive with his child, & compelled him to carry him to Lausannia, or at the lest would not suffer him to bury him in the Churchyard: nevertheless he buried him. But I know not whether it were in the raw ground or sodden. Thomas. Behold a great rigour and cruelty showed unto a little infant. hilarius. I do think that Apuli. li. 6. Asini aur. if that time had continued any long space we should have been constrained not to dye, for want of burying. It is a marvelous case that that poor little Infant had so much Et si sort p●ae manu non fuerit n●mo expirate pauperem patiotur. a do to find one little corner or angle in the earth, for to be buried in, and that the earth was not great enough for him. We may very well say that of our Priests which Photion. said of the Athemans' a little before his death. Photion Plut. in Photion. When they had condemned him to dye (because he was too honest a man for them, nor they were not worthy to have him among them) he must drink of the hemlock. For The poison of the Athenians. the Athenians had that custom to make those that were found faulty to drink that poison, and to put them to death after that sort. After that all the other that were in the prison with him, had drunken, and that there was none but he alone left, because that all the other had consumed the poison that did drink first, the hangman said that he will not give it him unless one would give him twelve Death bought. drachines' of silver. For because that an ounce of the poison was sold for so much. Photion then pleading with the hangman that his death might not be prolonged, and that the same should not let or hinder him to die, called unto him a certain friend of his, and said unto him: Sigh that it is not lawful to dye at Athens freely but that it will cost money, and that I must buy death, I pray thee deliver money to this hangman, and give him the price he demandeth, lest that for want of money I should tarry any longer before I die. We may say as much of the Christians, and that the Christianity is so much contributory, that one cannot only have the death and the burial freely, but that we must pay a reward. There was also among the paynim The custom of the dead & the s●●ry money of Charon. a certain custom that the dead must pay. And therefore when any man died they did put into his mouth an half penny for to pay for his passage and custom unto Charon the Ferryman of Hell for to serry the souls over the rivers that were there to pass over. Thomas. That Naulum O●●alus was very good cheap: But I do think that there passed many together at once. For the souls are not very hea●y. hilarius. According to the bodies from which they came out. Thomas. And if they had not wherewith to pay, should they be constrained to return to live again, and to continued and abide here for want of money? hilarius. They had that opinion that they should continued in great torment, if they could not pass. For they could not be purged of their sins, nor enter into the fields Eliseas with the blessed, but that they must first pass the river: As men have made us to believe of the souls who have not ended their penance. They do also believe that if their bodies be not honestly buried according to their estate and degree, they cannot pass in an hundredth years, but must be wandering here and there, until such time as their bodies be buried, or until the term of an hundredth years, which was assigned unto them for their pain and punishment, be expired: the which things the Poet hath comprised altogether in one self place by his verses of which I will recite unto you one part of those that agreed best to our matter. He speaketh in that place of the things that A●neas hath seen, being descended into Hell with Sibilla, the which afterwards he expoundeth and showeth plainly wh●t they signify. He first describeth that which they have seen there practised, saying. Here now the way doth lead to Limbo lake and filthy stoud, Ver. A●ne. 6. Whose channel choked is, with troublous grounds of miry mud. And belching boils a sand, which to the bakes it throws from deeps, A dreadful ferry-man that stream, with visage loathsome keeps. In tartred wretched weed, and Charon he by name doth height His hoary bush and beard, both overgrowue & foul undight., With scowling steming eyes, & from his shoulders down his loins, His filthy mantel hangs, whom sluttish knot uncomely joins. Himself with piked pole his boat doth guide, & bears a charge, Transporting still the souls, in rusty dusty cankered barge. Well aged now, but sappy strength he keeps of greener years, To this place all the rout doth draw themselves with louring cheers, By numbers great, both men and women dead, nor long delayed, With Prince's pressed boys and girls, that wedlock never said. And slouring youth, that in their parent's time were laid in ground, And all that life had born, about that bank they clustered round, As thick as leaves of trees among the woods in winter wind. When first to ground they fall, or like as fowls of water kind. Assembling flock themselves, when year of frost hath first begun, And over S●●s they seek in warmer lands to take the Sun. They stood, and craving cried, that first transport they might before, And stretching held their hands desiring much the further shore. The churlish ferruman, now these now those by course receives, And some down thrusting throws, & from the sand restraining Aeneas then for of this great tumult he merua●lde sore,) weives. O virgin tell (〈◊〉 he) what means this busy great uproar? What seek they thus? why to this water bank room they so fast? Wherefore be these reject? and yonder those their course hath passed? And some with oars I see are s●veeping yet this channeell blue, Than shortly thus to him dame Sibly spoke that Prophet true. O great Anchises son, undoubted child of Gods in bliss, Now Limbo lake thou ●eest, infernal pool this water is. Cocytus called it is, and Stygies more the name doth bear, By which the Gods themselves, so sore afraid been for to swear. This press that here thou seest, been people dead not laid in grave, A piteous rabble poor, that no release nor comfort have. This boatman Charon is, & those whom now this water bears, Are bodies put in ground, with worship due of weeping tears. Nor from these fearful banks nor ●●ers hoaree they passage get, Till under earth in graves their bodies bones at rest are set. A hundredth years they walk, & round about these shores they hove And then at last full glad, to further pools they do remove. There are yet at this day some who do not much differ from that opinion. Thomas. I know not what they do in The prayer of those that are deprived from ●●●riall. Rer●c. sperg. Ser●o dominic. 24 post Trinita. 〈◊〉 all Ap●li. li. 6. Asin a●r. ●rgo inter mortuos anaritia V●i●: ne● C●aron ilie ditis, & pater tantus Deus quiequam gratuito facit? & pauper mortens debat viaticum quarere. The Milanois. other places, but in our city when any is dead, & that they do bring him to be buried, he must bring with him his trental. For assoon as the dead corpses is come into the Church, they do lay ten lyardes upon his breast, which is thirty deneeres in value, the which the Curate or vicar goeth incontinently to take up. hilarius. That is n the honour of the thirty pennies as I think which judas sold jesus Christ. Thomas. I know not whether they had a regard to that, but you have made me to think that the same was to pay the feriage. Wherefore I would at the lest wise that if the Priests will not suffer us to pass freely, that our custom might be as cheap as was that of the paynim. hilarius. The Milanois have yet at this day that custom, that they do put a piece of Silver in the hand of him that is dead, but he carrieth it with him, and doth not give it unto the Priests. Upon which I have herded recited an excellent history which is written in the chronicles of Milanois, very proper, for to show unto our Priests that they aught to suffer the dead to rest, without demanding any thing more of them. For they are no more in their own ground nor country: wherefore they aught no more to be tributaries. And may very well think that they aught not to have any great store of money with them in these base and low territories, for as much as already long time agone they have taken all that that they could: & which is more, they did well know that they have taken away nothing with them. For even as they Ioh 1. d. 21 ●●c. 〈◊〉. 5 c 14 〈◊〉 o. b. 7 Valer. Max. li. 2 ●a. 1. de just aut. came all naked into the world, so shall they return again all naked: Except peradventure our Priests be of the opinion of the ancient Galls and Frenchmen who do think that in the other world men do handle money as they do in this: & therefore they do lend the one to the other money unto usury, to pay it below after their death. But I greatly fear that our Priests do not so much believe of the unmortalitie of the souls, as those there, and that they had rather borrow upon that count, then to lend. But let us come unto our history. In the time that Goths Adventurers To spoil the dead, and to pill the naked A true history the Barbarians and Goths did inhabit Italy, and Lombary, and did use great extortions unto the poor people, (as adventurers and Soldiers have accustomed to do: who after that they have got all the spoil, yet they will pill the naked and spoil the dead. And when they have taken all, insomuch that there is nothing left, yet they would that men should give them more, and do torment the poor people, for to compel them to tell where they have hide up their money, although they have none.) Among the rest there was an honest widow and of a rich house, Blondu● who knew not what to do, her house and all her goods were already sacked and peeled, that there was no more to take, and yet nevertheless the Soldiers did grieve and threaten her that she had more money. Whilst that she was in that perplexity, one of her children came unto her and said: You do remember mother that when my father died, one did put a ducat in his hand? let us go fetch it and give it to the Soldiers, to the end that they would let us have a little peace and rest. The poor woman believed the counsel of her son, and for to have peace with those thieves was constrained to open the Tomb wherein her husband was laid with other dead bodies and took away that ducat from him for to give it unto them. The same being come unto the Captains ear: for the Soldiers were present, who see every thing and declared it unto him. And therefore incontinently as he understood thereof, he said unto his people: Let us departed hence, and let us not torment them any more: For there is no more money, sith that they have been constrained to seek it with the dead. Thomas. Truly that might be very well called to take tribute of the dead. hilarius. I would gladly that our priests and Monks had such a judgement, and that they had as much pity on the poor people, & not to compel them any longer to pay tribute for the dead, when they see that they have work unough to find money to buy bread for to give meat unto those that be alive. Me thinketh that they aught to content themselves for that they have peeled the world so long time, when they see that it is eaten even to the bones. For how many poor people are there, that shall be constrained to go and dig the dead out of their graves, if they did know any that had money, for to deliver themselves from the hands of such adventurers? But which is worse, in steed to content themselves in so pilling the poor people until this present time, if there be any that speaketh one only word against their pillyng and extortions, and which refuseth to pay tribute for the quick and the dead, they will condemn them immediately to the fire, as Heretics. We do call the Scythians barbarous people, and esteem them very cruel, especially the Essedonians and Massagetes, who do eat their fathers and mothers and their parents and friends, in steed to bury them. The Essedonians have a custom (as the Historiographers do witness) to sing after their parents, and after that their kinsfolk and neighbours are assembled together, they do eat the flesh of the dead bodies, mingled with the flesh of beasts. The like have they written of the Massagetes who were also Scythians. I have thought that manner of doing to be marvelous strange, and would not believe it that there were people upon the earth so inhuman, who had not great horror and fear to eat the flesh of men. But when I consider & way the doings of our Priests, I find the Scythians to be very humane in comparison of them. For they are not content to eat the dead only, but they eat both the quick & the dead: & not being content with y● do also eat with them their wives, children, parents & friends with all their chevances & substance: & yet they cannot be sufficed & satisfied. They make The Priests are the graves of men and of jesus Christ. Stella clericorum O saccrdoes cor● pu● tut●m efficitur quotidic sepulchrum Christi. of their bodies the sepulchres of the poor people whom they do englut and devour, for to bury them more preciously in their bowels. But you must not be abashed if they make of their bodies the sepulchres of the poor people, as the Scythians did of their parents & friends, sith that they say that they are made daily the sepulchre of jesus Christ, because they do eat him daily, and bury him in their bodies and entrails. The poor people have then no just occasion to complain of their cruelty. For they do unto them no worse then unto their God, if their doctrine be true, but do bury them as preciously & honestly. And he that will not believe me, let him read their book which is entitled Stella Clericorum: and he shall see whether I lie or no: Stella clericorum Mundi precium proiieitur in sterquilinium id est in o● immundi sacerdotis. but he shall there find rather worse. For it is there written, sith that the Priest is the sepulchre of jesus Christ, that if he do presume to take the body of jesus with his polluted mouth, he doth worse than if he threw it in the dirt or mire: But which is more, he casts it into a privy. judge therefore Eusebius, whether that good God whom they have forged, be honestly lodged, and whether he have not a tomb and sepulchre very precious and according to his dignity. Eusebius. If there are some wicked Priests who did unreverently handle jesus Christ, and who did dishonour their office, must you therefore despise the estate, which is so worthy and excellent, and blaspheme jesus Christ in such sort? hilarius. When did you ever hear us blaspheme jesus Christ, & speak unreverently of god? do you think there is no difference between jesus christ the true saviour of the world. As for me I find as much difference, as is between the true God of Israel & the gods of the The true God and that of the Priests. babylonians and other Idolaters. Wherefore if you will accuse me of blasphemy, when I will not receive those new gods, and that I speak in such sort, you shall be also compelled to accuse the Prophets of the same crime, when they do so often mock at the strange gods. But wherefore are you not rather offended with them, then with me, who have not invented any thing but do speak only after them? To what purpose do they call the Priests the Sepulchre The Sepulchre of jesus Christ Act. 1. a. 2 Rome 6. b. 9 of jesus Christ? Is not jesus Christ risen again and ascended into heaven? doth not the Apostle say. Christ once raised from death dieth no more. For as much then as jesus Christ liveth eternally at the right hand of god his father what needeth he of a sep●lohre, especially of such as these are? When he died for our sins he had his sepulchre in Jerusalem, in which joseph of Aramathia and Nicodemus Mat. 2●. g. ●7 Mar. 15. d. 42 Luc. 23. g 50 john. 19 g. 35 did bury him in. They did not as the Scythians, eat him flesh and bones and bury him in their bellies and entrails. But in a goodly new sepulchre, hewn in stone. The priests than camib● say that they are that sepulchre in which jesus Christ was put, and out of which he rose again. Wherefore if they be the sepulchres of jesus Christ, it must be that he is dead sithences, and that he was buried in their bellies. For I cannot understand how he could be buried, if they have not eaten him, as the Scythians did eat their parents and friends. And if you do think that I tell you a thing that is strange, consider and mark well the words that the Apostle hath written to the Hebrews. The sacrifice of jesus Christ Heb. 7. d. 27. & 9 c. 12 He witnesseth that jesus Christ was once offered, and he shallbe no more Afterwards telleth the cause. For if he must be often offered he must dye often, sith that there is no sacrifice without effusion of blood. Yet the priests say that they do offer and sacrifice really every day jesus Christ; it followeth necessarily, that either they do put him to death, & that he dieth again, or else that the holy Apostle is an evil Logicioner, & that he concludeth evilly, & knoweth not the rules and laws of his Silogismes and consequences. If it be so the Priests may well be called the sepulchres of jesus Christ, but not of the true jesus Christ whom Saint Stephen Marc. 16. d. 19 Luc. 24. g. 51 Act. 1. b. 9 did see at the right hand of God, who as the Apostle witnesseth, dieth no more: unto whom I give more credit, then unto all the Priests and Monks which ever were or shall be. And therefore either it must be that they have forged a new jesus Christ, that dieth and rises again every day and as often as they list, and that they are all liars: or else that the Apostle hath written against the truth, the which is impossible. Wherefore it followeth, that the first part of my proposition is true. Eusebius. Do you not believe that the Priests have power to consecrated the body and blood of jesus, and that they eat it flesh and bones, as gross and as big as he was To eat jesus Christ. on the cross? hilarius. I do ask you an other question, when they have eaten the flesh & the bones, what do thy with the skin? And how they could dine upon Christmas day, after that they have eaten him three times. For me thinketh they should have their bellies too full & strouted. Also wherefore De consecra distic. 2. in glos. cap. nee Moses. Lib. de sacram. joan chanois. Vtrum Christus. comederit seips●o in die coenae. Respondet quod sic. Vt communiter tenent Docto. res. unde versus. Re● sedet in ●oene turba ●inetus duodena. Se tenet in manibus, se cibat ipse cibus. do you not demand of me this question which is also very common among your divines? To weet whether jesus Christ did eat himself? Thomas. What resolution do they give? hilarius. That he did, you may thereby know what reason there is in their doctrine. Will you have a more greater absurdity? We do eat his flesh spiritually for to have life: But he who is the life, what need hath he to eat himself? And if jesus Christ did eat himself, it must be that he hath two bodies: the one which eateth, and the other which was eaten. O Lord God, what dreams are these? But if your Priests do eat the flesh and the bones, they are worse than the Scythians. For they were content with the flesh of man, without eating the bones. Nevertheless to the end that you do not think that I will gainsay the word of jesus Christ, and that I am some Caparnaite, who is offended with the preaching that he made, of eating his flesh and Caparnaites john. 6. f. 55 To eat jesus Christ three ways. drinking his blood, or as the hearers who did forsake it. I answer that there is three ways to eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus Christ. The true manner the which he would teach us by his word, and that he would represent and frequent in the holy supper is spiritual The spiritual ●nanducation john. 6. g. 63 and not carnal, as he himself witnesseth, saying. It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have said are spirit and life. Theophilus. That is not meant that the flesh of jesus Christ doth not profit any thing the faithful, sith that he himself calleth it the bread which came down from heaven, without which we cannot have life, nourishment, nor salvation. But the carnal sense and understanding of his words, and such intelligence as the Cape●naites, and hearers that were offended had, is the flesh eaten in such sort as they understand it. For when we shall have the very flesh of jesus Christ in our mouth, and that we do crash it with our teeth, and digest it in our stomach, it profiteth us no more than to judas to have kissed him, and to the hangmen to have touched him, yea, to be sprinkled in his blood, and to have had his garments. For jesus Christ doth profit nothing being known after the flesh, except he be known through faith, by the which he filleth and satisfieth us also with his flesh and blood. Therefore it is not needful that he descend from heaven, nor that he remove from place to place, for to feed us in that manner with his flesh and blood, The presence of jesus christ and for to be present with us and in the midst of us. For he dwelleth in our hearts by faith, and liveth in us, and quickeneth us by his holy spirit. Wherefore he calleth Ephe. 3. c. 17 Rom. 8. b. 1● The Temple of God. 1. Cor. 6. d. 19 2. Cor. 6. d. 16. not the faithful, his sepulchre, but the temple of the living God. For he is not dead in the hearts of the faithful, but liveth there and the faithful by him. Even as then the sun is present with us, although it descend not from heaven into the earth, and maketh us to feel his virtue and power, it illuminateth us, and through his heat and brightness nourisheth and quickeneth both man and beasts, better than if it were here in earth with us: even so jesus Christ, that great son of righteousness through his divine power and virtue of his holy spirit, doth give unto our souls and bodies his flesh and his blood, and doth nourish and fill us and maketh us to feel the virtue and efficacy of his death and passion, and of his body and blood, that he hath given for us, better than if we did eat his flesh with our teeth and there did devour and swallow it in with his blood in our stomach: insomuch that there is not a body which is so well nourished and fed with bread and wine, that he eatcth and drinketh, as the faithful who with a true and lively faith cometh unto him., and receiveth his word and communicateth the Sacraments that he hath ordained, is filled and satisfied with his flesh and his blood. For he john. 6. d. 31. hath said: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. If he that cometh and believeth in him shall no more hunger nor thirst, it followeth then that in believing and communicating his Sacraments, he hath eaten and drunken and is satisfied. hilarius. That sufficeth which you have now spoken off (friend Theophilus) for to prove my meaning. For we have not at this present neither better time nor fit occasion for to pursue more fully that matter. But I will not grant unto thee Eusebius, that the Priests do eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus Christ after that sort. For sith that they seek his carnal presence, they deprive themselves of his spiritual presence, according to the witness of the Apostle which saith: We have an Altar Heb. 13. c. 10 whereof they may not eat which serve in the Tabernacle. If those who do serve in the Tabernacle of Moses, and put yet all their affiance in the levitical Ceremonies and sacrifices, are shut out and deprived from the true sacrifice of jesus Christ, what communion can those have with him, who have altogether overthrown his Sacraments and Ordinances, and have found out and invented new sacrifices, more intolerable than ever the jews used? There is an other manner to eat the flesh and drink the blood of jesus Christ, the which The carnal manducation Capernaites I cannot grant unto them, that is, the carnal eating, as the Caparnaites did understand it, even as one eateth the flesh of the butchery. jesus Christ which is at the right hand of God cannot be eaten after that sort. For he is the bread of Angels and of the true children of God, and of his sheep and not of Dogs, Wolves, Hogs, Lions and wild beasts. But I will grant unto them the third manner to eat jesus Christ, and The papistical manducation. do confess with thee that they do eat it truly, really, and essentially, not only in flesh and bones, but which is more (lest you should account me for an heretic) besides the flesh and bones, they do eat the skin, and break the bones for to suck out the marrow that is therein, because they have found such good taste in the meat. Thomas. If they do so, they do worse than the jews. For they broke not a bone of jesus Christ. Theophilus. That was because that it was necessary that in him should be fulfilled which was figured & represented The hones of jesus Christ are whole john. 19 f. 33 The paschal Lamb. Bxo. 12. 2. 5 by the paschal Lamb, of which they must leave his bones whole. For we cannot have jesus Christ, but that we must have him whole, & his virtue & power cannot be broken by death itself. Thomas. I have not yet very well understood you. hilarius. I will declare it unto thee by a clear demonstration, & by evident arguments. Didst thou not first confess unto me, that all the true faithful are the true members of jesus Christ? Thomas. I confess it. hilarius. If they be members of jesus Christ, they are then his body, of which he is the head, as the Apostle doth witness in many places. Thomas. I do agree unto you Induction Members of jesus Christ. 1. Cor. 12. b. 12 Rom. 12. b. 5 in that. hilarius. Forasmuch then as the faithful are the body of jesus Christ, you will also grant me, that those which eat the faithful and poor widows & orphans, do eat jesus Christ. And if you will deny it, I will prove it To persecute jesus Christ. Act 9 〈◊〉. 4 by that that jesus Christ said unto Saul, saying: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? In the same manner then as jesus Christ doth complain himself to be persecuted when his members are: So may I say, without digressinge from the Scripture, that those eat jesus Christ that do eat his members. Thomas. But you have not yet proved, that the Priests do eat the members of jesus Christ. hilarius. It hath been already proved by the things that were spoken before. For have I not already told thee, how they do eat both the quick & dead? But lest thou shouldst think that I speak without the Scripture, behold his witness. What do you understand by that rebuke and check that God did unto the tyrants and enemies of his people, when he complained that they denoured jacob, To eat jacob. and his people, as a morsel of bread. Psa. 79. b. 7 Psa. 53. a. 5 Psa. 14. a. 4 Thomas. The places do declare enough of themselves. For he complaineth that his enemies are come into his enheritage, and have destroyed his people, which is signified by jacob, of whom did proceed & come the twelve tribes of Israel. That is a manner of speaking common in all tongues. Even so do we say that a man is burned when his house is burned, also we do call the great thieves, covetous people, Metonimia. Virg. Aene. 2 Vealegon ardet. Devourers. tyrants, ravishers and usurers the consumers and devourers of the poor people, widows and Fatherless children, not that they ease and devour man's flesh, but because they destroy and devour their substance, and many times 'cause them to dye for very poverty and lack. hilarius. You have already concluded the which I would have concluded. We cannot deny, but that the Priests and Moonkes do devour all the substance of the poor Christian God's heritage. 1. Pet. 5. a. 3 people, which is the true heritage of God, and the true jacob whom they have consumed, wasted, and devoured more cruelly than the babylonians did unto the Israelites. For to make you better to understand the effect & sumine of our disputation, I will comprehend it in a little sillogysme Sillogismus in darii. and plain conclusion. Whosoever eateth the poor, eateth the body of Christ. The Priests do eat the poor: wherefore it followeth infallibly that they eat the body of jesus Christ. The syllogism is good, for it is in his inode and dialectical and logical figure. It needeth no more for to prove the premises and the Antecedent. For you have already granted it unto me by your answers. You do then see now friend Eusebius, that I am not an heretic, noither after God nor after the Pope. For I do confess the true and spiritual manducation of the body of jesus Christ, & the very papistical manducation, which is more truer than it is in the books of your Doctors. I do then think that you aught to content yourselves with us, & that the Pope aught not to pursue us to the fire, & to such cruel death, for that Article. For I believe that there is none of all those whom you do condemn for heretics, who are not ready to confess as much as I And if you will compel them further, me thinks you do them wrong. For what can they confess any more, without speaking against the truth? Now it rests that I do prove how they do To eat the skin and the bones. eat the skin and break the bones for to have the marrow. Wherefore I will take for my warrant and advocate in this cause chief Michea among the Prophets, who speaking both of them and of their like, accuseth them after this manner, saying. You hate the good and love Mich. 3. 2. 2. the evil: you pluck off men's skins and flesh from their bones: you eat the flesh of my people, and flay off their skin: you break their bones, you chop them in pieces as it were into a Cauldron, and as flesh into a Pot. And as concerning the Prophets that deceive my people, thus the Lord says against them: When they have any thing to bite upon, than they preach that all shall be well: But if a man put not some thing into their A sop in the throat. mouths, they preach of war against him. I do never read those words of Micheah, considering the avarice and rapacite of our false teachers and shepherds, shepherds feeding themselves. who do feed themselves, not the lords flock, but that me thinks I see before mine eyes that great Bze. 34. 2. 2. Serberus the porter of hell. and hideous Cerberus the dog and porter of Hell, with his three heads, which he hath for to devour, eat, and swallow up all that cometh unto him, if one do not cast a sop into his mouth, even as Aeneas and Sibyle did, according to Virgiles description, who hath set out his rage and unsatiable madness, speaking after this sort. There Cerberus, infernal hound, with throats wide open three, Vir Aene. 6. Doth haul with barking noise, at Limbo mouth full huge to see. Whose neck when Sibly saw with startling snakes to swelling fixed, A sop of bread with sleepy seeds and Honey sweet commixed. Against his throat she threw, he gaping wide his threefold jaws, All hungry caught that gub, & couching strait with stretched paws. He bowed his boisterous back, and on the ground himself he spread, Encombring all the cave, and groveling lay with slombry head. We have a great number of such dogs, who although Dumb dogs and criers. they are mute for to preach the word of God, for to cry against the abuses, vices and offences, for to chase and drive away the Wolves from the fold & to defend the sheep, nevertheless are not mute, but great criers against the true servants of God who cease not to bark, bite & devour, except for to have them quiet, one do cast them some bone or sop in their mouth. Now think if that infernal monster & mad dog, who hath but three heads and one belly, be so hungry and insatiable, what aught we to esteem of so many Cerberus, and of so many gluttons who have so many heads & bellies, which are as the great goulfes of the sea. It is not then without cause that the prophet's comparing such shepherds to those great mastiffs & dumb dogs, shameless idle knaves Esa. 56. c. 11 and insatiable, & unto Lions & ravening Wolves who have eaten nothing until Evening, who do flay the skin, eat the flesh, afterwards do break the hones and cast them into the pot for to eat and devour them, and yet cannot be satisfied and filled. Wherefore I cannot believe but that Solomon by the spirit of GOD hath foreseen and spoke of that generation, and that he minded to paint prover. 30. b. 14. it out unto us, when he said: There are a people whose teeth are swords, and with their chaff bones they consume & devour the simple of the earth, and the poor from among men. The Horseléech hath two daughters, the The daughters of the horselech. Horat in art. Poet. one is called fetch hither, and the other bring hither. Theophilus. He sayeth not without cause that she Non missura cuten nisi plena cruoris hirudo. The insatiable things. Pro. 30. b. 16 hath two daughters. For she hath two throats, and draweth the blood from one side to the other. But I am not abashed, but of that that when he numbereth the things that are not satisfied he hath also added those which are the most insatiable of all. He saith, that there be three things that are never satisfied, and the fourth saith never hoe. That is to say, hell, a woman's womb, and the earth hath never water enough, as for fire it saith never hoe. One may very well add to these for the fift. hilarius. It is no need. For among these four, they are already contained in two for fault of one. Hath not Solomon The fire insatiable. spoken of the fire, who never says hoe. For one cannot find so much as it consumeth. There was never fire, that molted and consumed so much goods, as the fire of their Purgatory & of their kitchen which is of the same nature. Again, is not the hell comprised among those insatiable things? Hell or the grave insatiable. May we not well speak that of them which David hath written of his enemies? saying: their throat is an open sepulchre. Psa. 5. c. 10 And that which Esay speaketh off, saying: hell gapeth and openeth her mouth marvelous wide. For of all Esa. 5. 6. 14. that they can once lay hand on, nothing ever returneth again, no more then from the mouth of hell and grave. But which is worse the grave consumeth & devoureth but the dead bodies: but these do devour both the quick & the dead: And we may very well say that these are the Harpies of whom Harpies. Vir. Aene. 9 Virginei volucrum v●ltus, fodissima ventri● Prolwies, unca que manus, & pallida semper. Ora fame. Painted Sepalchres. Mat. 29 b. 14 Mar. 12. d. 39 Luc. 20. g. 47 The ornaments of the painted Sepulchres. Virgile maketh mention off. But because they are fair and goodly sepulchres, as the Scribes & Pharisees who do never cease to cry: Corban, Corban, give, give, offer, offer: and as the daughter of the Horseléech. Bring, bring to the candles of the good Saint. Because they are so beautiful & polished without, the poor world cannot know them, although they do see them devour & eat up widows houses before their eyes, under colour of long prayers. For they have those goodly habits of religion, goodly Ornaments, Ceremonies, goodly names & titles, and that goodly appearance of holiness, which do cover & beautify those sepulchres & tombs, in such sort that men cannot perceive the filthiness & infection that is there hidden and kept close within, but pass over it without any advisement, as men do by the Sepulchres. Theophilus. They are more open and discovered then need required. For GOD hath now raised up a people whom they would not have, who have in such sort removed all that filth and infection that it stincketh throughout the whole world. And we must not be abashed if they call them the sepulchres sepulchres of jesus Christ. of jesus Christ, and though they do marvelously stink, sith that jesus Christ is altogether dead in them, and to them, and that they have nothing at all. For if Christ live not in us, what other thing can we be, but dead carryons, stinking and infectious, who do not only rot and consume themselves, but do rot and consume with them all other things? Eusebius. All of you do cry out against the Priests. Have you now all said? It was not enough for Hilary to speak evil and backebite, but that you must aid and help him Theophilus, and meddle also as well as he. Theophilus. You never saw a man that delighteth less The difference between to speak 〈◊〉 evil and to speak truth. to speak evil and backebite, and to hear evil speaking and tales: But truth constraineth me, and you ought to understand, that to speak truth for the health of one's neighbour, is not to speak evil, backebite, and slander any man. Would to God I could speak as much good of them, as of the Apostles. For I do love better to praise their virtue, charity and mercy, then to despise their vices, cruelty, avarice, and rapacity. But what will you that I speak? If I do see a poor man, who is wandering alone in a forest, or wood full of thieves, am not I bound to give him warning of the danger he is like to fall in? If I say nothing unto him, am not I guilty of his death sith that I known the danger: And if I encourage him to enter, and tell him that there is no danger, am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murderer of my poor brother? But if I do admonish him of the dangers and of the thieves. Do I wrong unto the theenes in calling them by their name? Should I do better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to save their honour, and that I should put my brother into their hands to have them to cut his throat? What goodness can I find in those, who from the greatest All Papistical Priests excommunicated, to the lest are all excommunicated & judged Simoniacs and Heretics, unworthy of all Ecclesiastical honour and office? not only by the authority of the holy Scriptures, To take money for the sacraments & ec●lcsiastical offices Gela. Papa. l. quae 〈◊〉 Baptiz ●●dis Item Ca●●st 〈◊〉 Grego. Nazianze c 1. 3 Q●i stude: Ambr. de mixed ca cum ordina●●ntur Item can Q●busdam & pueri but also by their own councils, decrees, and Canons. For how many councils, Decrees and Canons be there that do forbidden to demand and take, gifts, rewards, presents, hire or silver, nor any thing whatsoever it be, for cream, baptism, orders, laying on of hands: for the earth, nor Sepulture, neither for Sacraments nor whatsoever office is in the Church, under pain of excommunication, and to be held and reputed Simoniackes, Heretics, and Sacriledgers, and deprived and deposed from their offices and honours? and not only they that receive the money, but also those who do give it for such things. Thomas. There shall be then by that count no Christian, who shall not be excommunicated. For among the priests Papists excommunicated there is not one but hath received money for such things, nor among the people but hath disbursed somewhat. Theophilus. Therefore you may consider what communion may be in the Popish Church. For Saint Peter did Act 8. d. 20 not only curse, in the authority of God Simon the Sorcerer, of whom Simony and Simoniackes have taken their Simony & Simontack. name, but also the money that he offered for to buy the gift of God withal. Now if Simon for offering the money hath received such malediction, what aught it to be upon them that do clean contrary to Saint Peter, who do not only receive but also do compel the poor people to give it them? I do not hereby mean that the true evangelical Priests, and true Pastors of the Church, are not worthy of their nourishment and reward: But I speak against merchants in the Church 1. Pet. 2. 2 3 those merchants which are in the Church of God, whom Saint Peter hath forespoken, who have both GOD and the Devil to cell, Paradise ●nd Hell, holy things and profane things, and which do exercise merchandises of all things, and are polluted and defiled with all Simony Plati in v●ta Leon● pont. 2. Conc●liu●. Elbertinum. Ex cnoci. Telet 11. Ca and Sacrileges, that they themselves have been constrained to condemone them. And he that will not believe me, let him read Platine in the lives of the Popes, and the decrees of the Council of Elybertine held in Spain, in the time of Constantine: and that of Tholet, held in the Quiequid. ●x ●yno. ca 6. Nuil●s. ●x conc. Calc. 1. q. 1. cap. Si quis. Ex conc. Carth. 4. cap Placuit. Emendan. Dictum. Conc●. Tiburiensis. The selling of the burial. Psal. 24. a. 1. Math. 10. a 8. year. 713: and that of Calcedone: And the 4. of Carthage: And the Council of Tiburien and Varensian, who do condemn namely those that take money for the buryalls, saying after this manner: Wherefore dost thou cell the earth? Remember that thou art earth, and into the earth shalt return again. For the earth is not man's, but as (the Psalmist David witnesseth) the earth is the Lords, and all that therein is: If thou do cell the earth, thou shalt be held guilty of larceny, as he that attributeth unto himself the thing of an other man's. Thou hast received it of God freely, give it freely. And because it is altogether forbidden to all Christians, to cell the earth unto the dead, and to deny unto them the grave and burial which is due unto them. Item, we must command according to the authority Ex con. Vatensi. cap. Praecipiendum. Grego. in Registro. januarius bishop. Nereida. 13. q. 2. cap. Questa est. Ephron. Gene. 23. b. 10 of the Canons, that one should not demand or receive any thing for men's burials, nor for their graves. And he that would see the opinion of Gregory, let him read the Epistle, wherein he rebuked januarius Bishop of Sardinia, for that he asked money of Ne●eida, a noble woman, for the sepulture and burying of her daughter. And for to make him more ashamed, he propounded unto him the example of the Panim Ephron, and the honesty that he used towards Abraham touching his field for the burial of his wife. What shall we say friend Eusebius of those poor blind men, blinded thorough their avarice, who so openly speak against the word of God, and all councils and Canons? May not we rebuke and check them with that, that Tertulian Tertulian Apolog. adver. Gent. ca 13. Tributary gods and to be sold. rebuked the Gentiles and paynim, saying: The Gods that are most tributaryes and the greatest givers, are to you the most holiest, but for to speak better, those that are the holiest, are the greatest givers and trybutaryes. Their majesty is put to sale and valued and is esteemed after the gain that it bringeth. Your begging Religion, goeth about in Taverns, Shops and Markets, Begging Religion. for to beg. You demand money for the pavement and boarding of the Temple, for the entering into the Temple and holy places. It is not lawful for to know your Gods without money Tertul. in Apo●duer. Gentleman a. 42 Begging Gods Unto whom we must give. or reward, for they are to be sold. We cannot suffice or have enough both for men and for your begging gods, and let us not think that we are bound to give unto any other, then unto those that ask it. If jupiter then will have it, let him put forth his hand. For our mercy doth bestow more goods throughout all the street, than your religion throughout all your Temples. He The charity of the ancient Christians. declareth by those words that the ancient Christians bestowed not their goods in building of Temples, setting up of Idols, and in offering to them sacrifices, and in feeding of those Caphards' & false Prophets, and in the mean season to suffer the poor to perish with hunger, about in the streets: but do bestow them in nourishing and feeding of those that were among them. Therefore he complaineth in the name of all the Christians, that sith that they have bestowed already so much goods for to nourish and feed the poor, they cannot provide sufficient to give so much unto the Idols and Gods of the paynim, who do never cease to ask and beg. He thinketh in his judgement that the Christians have enough to do to keep and provide for the poor that are among them, without bestowing so much cost and charge to keep and provide for the Gods of the paynim, who are more costly than the poor. What will he then now say if he did see the Priests The tributaries of the Priests. who are called Christians and Lieutenants of Saint Peter, to gather and receive tribute of the Gods, of Images, of the quick and the dead, and to make Gods, and men, the quick and the dead tributaries, and to compel the poor Christians to maintain and keep so richly their false Gods and Prophets, the bones and the carcases of the dead, and to be at such great charge and expenses upon the dead, and in the mean time do suffer the poor members of jesus Christ and the lively Images of God to perish with hunger. May he not rightly say, that all the Christian Religion is no other thing now, but a very beggary? And the Gods that are there of the beggars, do never any other thing but beg, and that the dead d●e spend more than those that be alive. hilarius. These are dangerous beggars. For they Dangerous beggars. are like unto those lusty and stout beggars, who will chide and beat people, when they will not give them that they would have: and sometimes they do cut merchants throats. At the beginning they do seem but as though they did beg. And therefore they have found out so many abuses, for to make their begging the better worth, and for to still their scrip the better. Afterwards in the end they make men to give by force. But among all their inventions, they never had any that brought them more gain, than the God Pluto and his furnaces of Purgatory. God P●uto. The furnaces of Purgatory Alcumistes For there they do make the Philosophical stone, and by those do impoverish all the whole world, as the Alcumistes deceive those who do muse after their furnaces. But these are more crafty and subtle. For they do enrich themselves with other men's poverty, and the Philosophical The Philosophical stone. stone is always good for them. And if God would not have had that the fire should have begun in those furnaces, as Theophilus hath said, all the whole world would have go to ruin, and there would nothing have been left. Thomas. I have desired of long time to understand, how that fire hath begun there, by what means, and by whom. But you have not yet declared it unto me. hilarius. I am content to tell unto you. First, that The movers of sedition of Purgatory. that I do understand and know, and who have been the movers of sedition, which were the causes of that great offence, and afterwards Theophilus shall tell you his advice, which I doubt not but that it is better than mine. sithence that Paradise and Hell were so shut up, and that there arrived daily such a great number of souls in Purgatory, and have been kept there so long time, there is no doubt, but that it must needs be that the fire was very great, for to keep such a roasting and for to warm and make hot the kitchen and for to seeth the pot of so many Priests and Moonkes, who are dispersed and scattered abreade throughout all Christendom to so great a number, there is no Arithmetician, how cunning soever he be in his A●te, which can cast or number them. And yet nevertheless all the fire that was in their kitchen begun of Purgatory. For they, neither their family (which is not little) do eat no meat but that which is boiled and sodden in that fire. For you ought to understand, that forasmuch as the number of the soul's do become very many, and that Purgatory was the better furnished, so much the more greater did the fire kindle in their kitchen. For the revenue was very great. Wherefore it must needs be also that the train did increase & augment, and that after Requiem, one should sing Gaudeamus. And the more they did The gaudeamus of the presses see the fire to burn the more they did blow it. To be short all went by the dishes. They did cast the house out of the windows. There was no more question but to blow the coal, to rejoice and triumph, insomuch that they themselves did make the fire. Thomas. I do not yet very well understand your meaning, except you do speak more plainly. hilarius. I mean that they are fed and nourished so fat and big about that kitchen, and have invented so many fables and lies, for to maintain and augment that fire, that they have uncovered and bewrayed themselves: and also have done such wicked and most execrable things that whether men would or not, they have been constrained to open their eyes, & to know that they were but deceivers and seducers of the people, and that all their doctrine was nothing but fables and lies, and especially by their Croysarde, which hath brought forth Luther in place, who The croyaards was the first that discovered their disobeyed. Theophilus. It is very true, that that which you say hath served for some thing. For where jesus Christ hath Mat. 5. b. 16 commanded his Disciples that their light should so shine before men, that they seeing their good works might be induced to glorify God: Those here have so lighted and kindled the fire of their Purgatory, that every one beginneth to see the dark places wherein they have put us. But that were but a small thing, if God thereby had not sent from Heaven another fire, more vehement and burning, which The celestial and evangelical fire Gene. 19 e. 24. Psa. 103. b. 8 Nomb. 14. d. 18. Exo. 34. a. 7. hath burned and consumed it altogether. Thomas. Did the lightning fall upon it, or the fire and brimstone that consumed Sodoma and Gomorra? Theophilus. Not yet. For God who is full of compassion and mercy, and long suffering, will not suddenly use such rigour and vengeance. And therefore the fire that he hath sent is more for to illuminate and make hot, then for to burn and cousume. But it is of such a nature and force that it draweth after it the fire of the wrath and indignation of God, upon those which by the same will not be illuminated. That is it of which jesus Christ speaketh off, saying: I am come to put Luc. 12. g. 49. fire on the earth: and what is my desire, but that it be kindled. And for to declare better what is the virtue of that fire, and what fire he means, he hath sent his holy Ghost unto his Apostles and Disciples, like a tongue of fire, Act. 2. a. 3 Mat. 3. c. 11 Act. 1. a 5 The true fire of purgatory. witnessing thereby, that it is he, of whom john Baptist hath spoken, saying: who shall baptise you with the holy Ghost and with fire. That is a fire that hath an other virtue, then to purge the purses of the poor sinners. For it purgeth in deed the souls, the which none other fire can do. And therefore he hath sent his Apostles for to carry Mat. 28. d. 19 Mar. 16. c. 15 Luc. 24. c. 36 john. 20. a. 22 Esa. 2. c. 25 that fire, and to set on fire all the world, that thorough the same all sins, filthiness, and iniquities should be purged in his Church as in a furnace, & that all that which was false metal, should be so tried and melted that nothing should remain but pure gold: and that all the relics of 2. Cor. 5. d. 17. Heb. 1. a. 3 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Act. 15. b. 9 The purgatotory of jesus Christ & that of the Pope. the old Adam should be burned and consumed, in such sort that all the true children of God should be made new creatures through the power and virtue of jesus Christ, who alone hath made the purgation of our sins, puryfying our hearts through faith, washing and making them clean with his precious blood. hilarius. Behold a purgatory much differing from the other. For in the other they do nothing without money, but in this here we must not have any. Theophilus. But he that will give and offer unto it is accursed of God, and sent to hell fire, as it appeareth by the reprehension that Saint Peter did so rigorously unto Simon the Sorcerer, cursing both him and his money that Act s. d 10 he offered. Hillarus. I am not abashed, although he were a beggar. For he was very rigorous and cruel unto those that did bring him money. Those that say they are his successors have not done the like: But clean contrary, that is, that he that will be best welcome unto them, Exo. 13. b. 15 Deut. 10. d. 16 must not come empty handed. For it is wrttten: Thou shalt not appear before the Lord empty. They have well advised on those places that speak of bringing, for to make them serve for their gain and profit: although that they do understand nothing of them. And therefore they say unto those that do bring any thing unto them: Intra in gaudium Domini tui: Enter into the joy of thy Lord Centuplum accipies, & vitam aeternam possidebis. Thou shalt receive an hundredth times as much, and possess eternal life. Theophilus. Saint Peter studied in an other school, and remembered the commandment that the master gave unto him saying: Freely you have received, freely give. Mat. 10. 28. And for that cause hath he himself preached in his name, saying: you were not redéenied with corruptible things, as 1. Pet. 1. d. 18 silver and gold, from your bain conversation, which ye received by the traditions of the fathers: but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb undefiled, and without spot. Forasmuch then as it is so, are not those men The panishmen? upon those which re●ect the gospel, & do go to a strange fire worthy to be cast into everlasting fire, if they do reject such grace, when it is presented and offered unto them? and if they refuse to be purged with that celestial fire, which was not sent unto them for to consume them, but for to save them? hilarius. We must not doubt of it. Theophilus. All other fire then besides that is a strange fire, the which the Lord hath forbidden, willing & commanding levit. 10. a. r. Nomb. 16 g. 46. Nomb. 26. g. 26. isaiah. 6. c. 6. that we should use only the same of his temple and altar, of which the Seraphin took and brought the coal in his hand, wherewith he purged the lips and mouth of Esay. Also they aught to way and consider the example of Dathan and Dathan and Abiron. Nomb. 16. e. 31. Abiron and what profit they received in offering of strange fire, other then that which was commanded of God. They offered it, but it was to their own hurt and destruction. For God kindled fire against them and they were burned and consumed, as the babylonians were with the fire of their furnace. Danl. 3. c. 22. Nadab and Abihu. levit. 10. a. 1. And if God did not pardon Nadab and Abihu the proper sons of Aaron, but caused them to be burned and consumed openly in the sight of all the people, only because that through negligence they did take other fire then of the Temple, do they think that he will support and bear rather with those who despise the fire of jesus Christ his son, and of his holy Ghost: Therefore he said not without a cause, when he did send his disciples for to bring that fire, saying: When you shall enter into any city or house, if they will not ●●●●ue you, Mat. 10. b. 14. shake off the dust of your feet in a witness against them. For truly I say it shall be easier for the land of Sodoma and Gomorra in the day of judgement, then for those of that generation. Wherefore I said but even now the that celestial fire draweth with it the fire & brimstone, which consumed Sodoma and Gomorra. For he that shall not be purged by that fire in this world, it is necessary that he be consumed in that hell fire. And therefore it is better for us that we do hold ourselves unto that Purgatory, sith that it hath pleased God to bring us thither again, then to seek an other, which in steed to purge us, doth burn us in hell fire. Thomas. If it be so, it is a great deal better. But I would gladly know how that fire hath been quenched out so long time, and now kindled again. Theophilus. You may well understand that when men would kindle an other, they must quench out this here, and also wh● men would build an other Purgatory, they must ruinated and destroy that of jesus Christ. For they cannot agree together: and it is impossible that the one can endure & continued with the other, sith that the one purgeth without The cause wherefore the purgatory of jesus Christ hath bene unknown. money; through the only grace of God, and the other is an insatiable gulf, which melteth & consumeth all the gold & silver of the world, neither purgeth it the sins, but maketh all those guilty of hell fire that seek in it their purgation. hilarius. I do count him to be foolish & mad that had rather consume and waste all his substance for to buy hell, then to receive Paradise freely, which shall cost him nothing. Thomas. In hearing you speak, I am greatly estonied to see how men have changed their nature. For they do all willingly run to the best cheap, & there is none but bad rather receive good merchandise, if it cost nothing, then to buy the bad very dear: or poison for to kill in steed of bread which aught to nourish, & which shall be presented and offered unto him without money. Theophilus. And yet nevertheless we do see the same put in practise every day: wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the senses and understanding of men, who do take such great pleasure to destroy themselves, and to loose both their bodies, souls and goods: For they are mad to run after the priests for to buy death, and refuse life, which is presented unto them freely and thanckfully by jesus Christ. hilarius. I believe it well, & behold the cause wherefore all these collyars and kitchen men, who do live upon that fire, have endcuoured themselves as much as lieth in them, to quench out altogether the fire of the gospel of jesus Christ, which quencheth & putteth out there's, because that it is more vehement and more violent, and consumeth it into Ashes. Thomas. Is it then true that it is quenched even as you say, and that there remains nothing whole? Theophilus. There remains yet some chamber or cabin, which are not yet all burned. But sithence that once the fire of jesus Christ hath begun there to kindle, it will not cease until such time as it hath consumed it all into Ashes, for that is a fire which none can quench. hilarius. I do much marvel that they do not all run for water to cast upon it. Whereto serveth their holy water? wherefore do they not no we make it to show his virtues, as well as against the lightnings & tempests when they conjure them? Theophilus. They do clean contrary. For every one runneth to the fire, to the faggots, to the brimstone, to the lights & to the bellows for to make it the more to burn. And they are so hot after it that there is neither, To put out fire by fire. King, Prince, Lord Bourgis, Merchant, or Labourer, whom they do not provoke to blow their fire & to cast on faggots, in such sort that it is become so great, that men do see in many places that it is like to consume those that be alive. Thomas. Can they quench it by that means? Theophilus. You are not deceived, hath the fire of men used to quench the fire of God? Not, but they do kindle it daily more and more. hilarius. I know the cause wherefore they do it. They do greatly fear lest those Lutherians and heretics should not be dampened, and that they should not go into hell, sith that they deny the Purgatory, and that they will not enter, therefore they would make them to feel it in this world, and to purge them from their sins, & to put them in Paradise against their wills. They do well declare thereby, that they differ from the Persians, The Persians. Cice. Tus. q. li. 1 Strab. li. 15. Volater. Herod. li. 1. 2. 4. Reg. 16. a. 3. &. 17. e. 17. 2. Cor. 28. a. 3. Psal. 106. f. 37 Lact. de sal. rel. li. 1. ca 21 Eus. de prep. eu. li. 4. Plini. li. 7. Dtoni. Hali. Diod in. 2. biblioth. The Pope maketh princes his haugmen. who will not burn the dead bodies, as the Greeks & Latins do, because they hold the fire as a God; and they think that it seemeth that it was much unseemly for his majesty to defile himself with dead bodies, and to nourish him with flesh. But these here do give him none other meat, but do sacrifice to him men, as the Idolatres did God Moloch, Pluto, Saturnus, and did nourish them with man's flesh. But one may reply unto me, and say, that they did unto him that honour to nourish him with live flesh. Theophilus. I am not so much amazed to see them do that, as I am to see how they make the princes & lords their hangmen, putting into their hands those whom they would have to be executed. hilarius. They show themselves to be the successors of those, who said unto pilate, speaking of jesus Christ: we have a law and by our law he aught to dye. But it john. 19 2. 7. is not lawful for us to put any man to death. And therefore they pray aid of the secular power, the which men dare not refuse. I do think that many Princes & Lords do fear lest it happen unto them as it happened unto Nicanor the provost of Alexander, against the Bactrianians. Nicanor. The Hyrcanians and Bactrianians did usually give unto the dogs those that were very old, and did think it to be the Bactrianians Hircantans. best burying. For that cause the common people nourished up common dogs for that purpose, and the rich men tame and demesticall dogs for to serve them for that purpose: Cicero. si. 1. Tus. qua. Sixt. Emper. Hiero. adver. Lovin. lib. 2. Canes sepulchrales. The dogs for burying. Cal. Rhod. Lect. aut li. 17. ca 19 Aduer. lovini. li. 2. P. Rosset a princely poet. Canons of Mont falcon. And therefore they called them in their language the dogs of Sepulchres or grave dogs. Then when Nicanor was come unto the Bactrianians, he endeavoured himself to reform and correct that vile custom and execrable crime. But he could never take order to reform it, but to the contrary as witnesseth saint Jerome, they did rise against him, in such sort that he had almost lost his kingdom. Now if we will consider the things and way them well, what are in these days our Priests and Moonkes who do live upon carrion, as the dogs of the Sepulchres do. For that cause I think, that Rosset the Poet of Savoy, called the dogs, the Canons of mount Falcon, as I have herded him oftentimes say in his lessons. Sith them they have used to eat man's flesh, it is no marvel though men do fear them, & that they feed them deintely, as they do in Hyrcania. For there is not almost any great house but hath his domestical dogs, besides those that are kept & fed commonly in every town & village. Theophilus. I do much doubt that the same that they are afraid off will happen unto them, sith the they will set no good order, according to the power that God hath given unto them. I do greatly fear, that in the end those dogs will dovoure them altogether. For they have already well begun. hilarius. Me Cicer. de nat. Deo. lib. 2. thinks that they take the Pope for Moloch, Pluto or Saturn, whom men cannot appaise without sacrificing unto them men. The Pope would be called our holy father, but that is such a father as Saturn was, who did eat his own children Saturn and Rea. (if the Poets have not lied) but yet Rea his wife hide them from him, and kept them the he should not eat them. But the court of Rome, & the papistical Church, who would be called our holy mother Church, doth eat them as well as our holy father: and in steed to hide them from him, she seeketh every where for to devour them with him. Wherefore we may very well give credit to the Poets, & account them as Prophets herein. For me thinks that they have truly Ovid. Fast 4. prophesied and figured 〈◊〉 those Gods which we have. I Sueto. in Ang. would that the Princes would better advise themselves in their doings, and that they do not unto the Pope, as Augustus Caesar did unto julius, unto whom he sacrificed three hundredth men before his Altar the ninth of March of those that yielded themselves. Thomas. I know not what to say of your matters, and am much abashed that Eusebius holdeth his peace all this while without speaking any word, that he taketh not the quarrel in hand & the matter in earnest for to defend the holy mother the church to which he beareth so great zeal. How much doth purgatory cost thee every year Eusebius? Eusebius. I will not make thee account, nor I will not have the trumpet blown when I do any good deed. Thomas. I will tell thee the cause it that be true that they say, you and I have lost much money, & our matter fareth very evil. Wherefore me thinks you should answer something, and allege some reason against that the they say, or otherwise me thinks you will be vanquished, & that you do prove all that which you have herded of them. Eusebius. What reason will you that I allege unto people without reason? It maketh me to tremble to hear their blasphemies, and I do marvel how God can suffer them, insomuch that in hearing them me thinks that the earth should open her mouth and swallow them up. A little thing would have made me to have gone away, and I am amazed how I could hear it so long. Theophilus. Have you found our matters so out of reason. Eusebius. But what reason is there to mock so with God & with our holy mother the Church? I do greatly fear that God will not give you grace to go from hence into purgatory: But that he will sand you into hell, & that you shallbe of the number of those unto whom jesus Christ will say: Go you cursed into everlasting fire. For I well know by your Mat. 25. d. 41 own words that you do smell of the brimstone and faggots, and that you are rank heretics. I doubt not, but the there hath been a great many burned that have been honester men than you are. hilarius. Nor I also doubt it. she cannot deny but that the tyrants have burned many holy Martyrs, for the Gospel of Martyrs. jesus Christ, & do yet still unto this day a great many honester men than we. For if they had not been good & honest men, they would not have by their blood sealed the witness of the truth. Thomas. I do well perceive that Eusebius will leap by and by upon the Ass, and will be in a rage, if men do vere him much. Eusebius. Who would not be in a rage, bearing such matters? It were enough to make all men alive in a rage, that have any zeal unto the holy catholic Church. Thomas. Forasmuch as thou thinkest that we are so far past reason, I pray thee, to answer unto that which I will ask thee. And if thou have any good reason, show it forth, for to draw me from error & heresy, if thou thinkest the I am fallen into any. Eusebius. I will not dispute nor pled with you, but I had rather follow the counsel of saint Paul, who commandeth me to reject him that is an Tit. 3. c. 10 heretic. For it is forbidden to dispute with them. And I To dispute with Heretics. do well know, that I shall profit nothing, but to be perverted, if I were not very strong in my faith. For as far as I can perceive, you are already to obstinate and hardened in your heresies: and as saint Paul saith: Evil words corrupt 1. Cor. 15. c. 33 good manners. Theophilus. You have spoken your mind. But before that you do condemn us for heretics, we must be vanquished of heresy. And if it should be so that we should fall into any error & heresy, yet thou canst not call us heretics, except it be known unto thee that we were the authors and The signification and definition of an heretic August. 1. li. de utilita. credend. Et. 24. quae. 3. ca Haereticus. inventors of sects, or that we were obstinate and hardened in error, and that through praise, arrogancy, presumption or covetousness, & for some worldly gain or profit, we would speak against the truth. For according to S. Augustine's definition, such men aught to be taken for heretics. But I beseech God we be not led with such affection. And when you shall know perfectly that we are heretics, yet saint Paul Titus. 3. ca 10. doth not command us to reject an heretic at the first dash, but after once or twice admonition, when he showeth himself incorrigible. And as yet you have not admonished nor corrected us, wherefore you cannot lawfully accuse us, neither of obstination, nor yet of heresy. And to the end that we should give the less occasion, I am content to hear patiently all that which you will say, and believe that I shall receive reason for payment, upon this condition also that you will hear me, & talk with me quietly, as though you did count me for your Christian brother, until such time as you have vanquished me by your reasons, & that you did fully know my obstination. Thomas. I would gladly see Eusebius skirmish with you: But in the mean time I would also as gladly hear that some would speak of dinner, and to let that skirmish alone till afterward. For I do see the the sun is already very high, and think that we have forgotten to dine: For I have a stomach that barketh as the hungry hound, which keepeth me the I cannot forget it. hilarius. Thereunto I am thy compalgnion. Therefore I find thy counsel good. I know not how it is with you, but with me I have a good appetite to drink. Eusebius. God knoweth that you are yet fasting at this mass. For you have accustomed to fast. hilarius. Although I have broken my fast twice, yet you aught not to be abashed although that I am much altered. For we have been all the day about that fire of Purgatory, which hath so altered me that I think that all the holy water of the Priests cannot quench the fire and the thirst which is in my throat. Eusebius. I do believe very well that you love the wine better than he water, & that the same is the holy water that you require. hilarius, I do also believe that you are not much contrary from mine opinion, and I do not think, how good a catholic soever you be, that you would change with a priest a pint or quart of wine, for a quart of his holy water. At the leastwise I would not: for I do find the one better and more profitable than the other. I know not how the souls of Purgatory do like of the water, but I do like better of the wine: And if I must needs drink water, I had rather to mingle it with a little wine, then with salt, as the Priests do in their holy water. Eusebius. They do it not for to drink. hilarius. I believe it well: for they are not so dainty: & they love the wine as well as I But wherefore do they it? Thomas. For to deface & purge the sins by the sprinkling thereof. hilarius. I am ashamed of their folly. One may Apothegma of Diogenes for the holy water Ovid, Fast. 1. Ah nimium saciles, qui tristia crimina cadii. Exigua tolli posio putalls aqua. very well say unto them as Diogenes said unto a certain Panim, who sprinkled himself with water for to purge his sins, after their ancient manner. O miserable man (says he) if thou hast s●●led in thy Grammar and committed a fault and incongruite, thou canst not be absolved with sprinkling of the water: how dost thou then think with the sprinkling of the water to be absolved and washed from thy sins? Thomas. It seemeth unto me that if you have such great thirst as you say, you will not begin to enter into a new matter, for to make us fast any longer. Theophilus. Admit it were so that we had a day of fasting. For it is now Lent, & although it were not yet I do believe that Eusebius would have fasted & peradventure Thomas also. And when we shallbe all under the Pope's religion, we must then fast the Lent all out, or else at the leastwise a great part thereof. hilarius. It is true, and it is better for us to fast at liberty, then through compulsion. But sith that you be all of that mind, let us go then to dinner. ¶ Finis primi Dialog. THE SUM OF THE second book. SIth that we have already declared in the first Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonical, Poetical, and Papistical Purgatory, and the divers manners of purgations, that have been, aswell among the paynim as the Christian Idolaters, and how all those things were invented by the Priests for to serve their avarice, and rapacity, the which was more greater in them, than it was ever in others: Now we will bring in, declare and set forth particularly their other practices, & the office which they do for the dead, & how at the funerals, burials & mortuaries they follow more the errors and abuses of the paynim, than the examples of the true servants of God aswell in their singings and lamentations that they make for the dead, as in torches, lights, bells, rynging, and sepultures. Therefore I have entitled this Dialogue: The office of the dead: In which also we will declare, what is the honour that is due unto the dead: what aught to be the burials, funerals, and the sorrowing of the Christians: what hath been the beginning, in making, commemoration & prayers for the dead. Also we will declare the principal points of the Mass of Requiem, that they do sing for the dead, and we will prove by their own words, that they do pray rather for the Saints and Saints, and for those that are in Paradise in joy and celestial rest, then for those which are in pains, be it in Purgatory, or in any other place, according to their own doctrine: and how by their own prayers they sufficiently testify and witness that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certain, and that they hold not those whom they do judge to be in Purgatory, as assured of their salvation. It shallbe also declared what is the true Purgatory of jesus Christ, and the true satisfaction of the Christians towards God, for their sins: and how the Papistical Purgatory and satisfactions do disagree altogether from the promises of god, & the remission of sins by jesus Christ, It shallbe declared in like manner for what cause God doth chastise and punish the faithful in this world, and not in the other: what are the good works, and wherefore God will judge men by them: and how we must watch and do penance, and travail whilst we are in this life, without trusting upon the good deeds that other will do for us after our death. Item, what are the good deeds that we aught to do for the dead, and wherein we may secure & help them, and the great injury & wrong that the Popes and the Priests do unto jesus Christ, and to all the Christian people, holding them in the sink and dungeon of their perverse doctrine and traditions: What fishermen they are, and what their floods and rivers are wherein they fish and catch the gold and silver and not the men: what are their relics and holy bodies: and how they do abuse the dead bodies to the great dishonour of God and of his Saints as the Conjurers and Sorcerers do. And whereto serveth all that which is done at the burials, and chiefly to those which are buried in the habit or cool of Saint Frances. And in the end we declare how jesus Christ containeth in himself all that which is needful for us, both in life and death. For to enter then into the matter, Theophilus bringeth the other in order. THE SECOND DIALOGUE which is called the office of the dead. THeophilus. You did erewhile complain because that in speaking of Purgatory we were so affectioned after it, that it have almost made us to forget our dinner: But now I do fear very much the contrary, that the dinner doth make us forget purgatory, and the residue which yet remained to be thought on. hilarius. You know very well that the Priests have accustomed to break their fast, and to eat the sop in the wine in the midst of their Mass. Wherefore it were good reason that we did pause a little in the mids of our Mass, for to breath ourselves. For we have said and sung enough for the dead for to drink once: And yet we are more beneficial unto them then the Priests. For we have not drunken upon their costs and expenses. Thomas. Therefore you are so much the soberer. For me thinks that you have not drunk very much according to that that you say you were a thirst. hilarius. I took that which sufficed me and no more, and was content. For it doth to me more good, than all that which the Priests and Moonkes have eaten and drunken in the name of the dead; doth profit the dead. It is already long since that I would have brought in for you that, but I do always wait when that Eusebius would begin. But I know very well that the dinner hath a little abated his choler, and that the advice and counsel of Seneca is good, who Seneca. counseleth those that are subject to ire & choler not to fast nor to take in hand any weighty matter, if they do find fasting hurtful to those which are subject to wrath. themselves by experience to be more inclined to wrath before they have eaten then after, because that hunger increaseth it the more. Eusebius. Therefore do you break your fast so willingly in the morning, and are so much afraid to fast. You must not impute my choler unto fasting, but to your importunate and wicked tongue: For he must have great patience which would not be moved to wrath through your words. Theophilus. I would gladly know thy reasons wherefore. Admit that all that which this holy father hath preached this day be true, and all that which he at other times hath made us to believe of Purgatory: First I demand of thee, whether the Priests & Moonkes can deliver the souls which are kept in that fire, through their Prayers, Suffrages, good deeds, Uigiles, Masses and Pardons? Eusebius. Who will say the contrary but the Heretics? Theophilus. If it be so, wherefore are they so cruel that they do not deliver them incontinent from the fire, sith that they have the power to do it? Do they delight to see them fry, roast, and burn with a little fire, as they do The cruelty of the priests towards the souls. those whom they condemn for Heretics, for to make them suffer more greater torment? If you see an house on fire, and that there were a little child, or a poor man with in the house, crying for help and succour, would you not run by and by and fetch them out, if you might possible? Thomas. Although it were but a Deg, yet one should have pity to hear him cry and howl. Theophilus. That same is most true. Wherefore you Miseremini mei, miseremini mei, saltem vos amici mei, quia manus Domini tetigit me. Lugentibus in purgatorio. Qui torrentur ardore nimio, Et torquentur sine remedy, Subuentat tua compassio, O Maria. may judge Eusebius, what people those are, whom you have in such estimation, & accomptest for the holy Church. They do sing in their Uigills, in the name of the souls: Have mercy upon me, have mercy upon me, you at the lest that are my friends. And in their Mass and in their Lugentibus in Purgatorio: They do cry unto the Virgin Mary that she have pity & compassion of these poor souls which do lament themselves in purgatory, and which are roasted with a very great fire and torments without remedy. Wherefore do not they themselves have compassion on them and give them help. Eusebius. What do they then? Do you not see how by those very words, they do pray unto the Virgin Mary for them, and how they show that they are their advocaters and intercessors towards her. Theophilus. But do they that for the compassion that they have of them? hilarius. They declare it sufficiently enough. For if one give them no money, they will let them roast and burn perpetually, although they have power to deliver them, as they brag and boast themselves they can. Theophilus. thereof I am much abashed, The rule of the divine service for the dead. Durant. Ratio diui. off. li. 7. Rub. de off. mort. and yet more, because it is written and ordained in their rules of their divine office, that if it chance that the years mind of those that be dead fall upon a Sunday, or upon any solemn feast, it aught not to be delayed nor put off until the next day, as it is used in the office and feasts of Saints, if they fall upon such days: But must rather advance the office and prayers for the dead in the days before, for to comfort them the better, and to prevent and mitigate the pains that they to suffer in Purgatory. Of which they do give such reasons, saying: that the dead & the unde versus Non peccat cantans, qui iustam praevenit horam: Sed peccat cantans qui iustam prae terit horam. lo. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. q. 1. Long & short Masses. souls of the dead have need of our aid, but not the Saints. Wherefore the Saints which be in Paradise have more greater leisure to tarry, than the poor souls that are held in the fire of Purgatory. Whereunto agreeth very well the question which Maioris made: To wit, what Mass is most profitable for the dead, either that which is said quickly and hastily, as the custom is in France to sing them: or else that which is said leisurely, and in which they bestow a great time, as they do in Scotland and in Spain. hilarius. What is the solution of the question? Theophilus. That the same that is soon dispatched is the best: For the souls do not feel the comfort that they ought to receive of the Masses which are sung in their name, until such time as the Mass is done. hilarius. And therefore they say as I think. Ite Missa est. Go your way the Mass is done, and do believe that then the souls have leave for to departed out of purgatory. But by that account the Masses of Hunters should be the The hunter's Mass. The requiems of the poors and of the rich. best. And the poor should have more greater advantage than the rich. For they do dispatch their Masses quickly with a little Requiem, yet the Priests do eat the one half for the great haste that they have. It seemeth plainly To go into Paradise in post, & upon a ●●rslytter or waggon. that they would send them into Paradise in post. But the rich they do carry uppen Horselytters or Wagons with great Requiems, which continueth every one of them more than ten miles, and are more than ten ells long. But I think that they have regard unto that, that the most part of those arrant thieves were gouty, and they are yet afraid to do them hurt and to trouble their gouts. Thomas. I had rather to have the gout and to be carried into Paradise upon the most trotting horse that can be found, then to burn in that so terrible a fire. But I marvel, if it be so, wherefore it is forbidden that the Priests shall say but one Mass in a day, sith that they are One Mass in a day. so profitable for the dead. Me thinketh that the Priests should never cease singing of Masses at all times and that they aught to forsake their meat and food to do that. For if they were in a fire, they would gladly that one should leave all things for to help them out. Furthermore, how much the more a thing is the betre●, so much the more the frequentation of the same aught to be the better. hilarius. I am also estonyed that the Papists do not all the good deeds that they determine to do for the dead all in one day without tarrying for the yeremindes, and causing the poor souls to languish so long in that fire, & to suffer them so long time to roast: and that those that ordain Masses in their Testaments, do not 'cause them to be dispatched in an hour, without lymiting so long time. Theophilus. Also Maioris did very well say, that the same 4. Cent dist. 45. 41. should be the better, although that afterwards, he added that a Mass which is said more treatably, doth recompense through the devotion of him which sayeth it, the quickness and brevity of that which is said in haste. hilarius. I believe very well that they had rather have all their money together that they look for, then to 'cause them to languish in tarrying for it, as the poor souls, fearing lest any thing should escape them. Therefore they say, that the candle that goeth before, is better than that The candle that goeth before. which cometh after. Thomas. I assure thee that I had an Aunt, whom they had put that into her head that the To bury one before he is dead. An history. must be buried before she be dead. hilarius. How could she do that? Thomas. She hath done during her life all her good deeds, as she would have that one should do for her after her death, carrying candles, and sprinkling holy water upon the grave in which she would be buried, and causing the Priests to sing, as they should have done if she had been dead. But the same happened well for them. For afterwards she was converted to your law, and the most part of all her parents and kinsfolk. Wherefore the Priests should have lost all that. hilarius. And therefore it is not without cause that they make such haste of offerings, but without the same they make no haste. Theophilus. It should seem to those that hear them read upon their books, the they have great pity & compassion of those captive souls, sith that they had rather delay the honour that they would do unto the saints, & their office, then the same of the dead, & the solace & comfort that they would give unto them. But the practise of their doctrine and experience declareth unto us the contrary. For he that will not give them ready money in their hands without all question, those poor souls should never have any help of them, or at the lest it shallbe but little, and they shall tarry their leisure. And so by that means the poor shallbe always miserable, and cannot enter into Paradise for want of money, if there be such avarice in Paradise as is among them. hilarius. Some men say they have heard their lamentations, and that you do wrong unto them, and that The lamentations of the priests for the dead. they are not so pitiless as you make them. For in singing for the dead, they lament so piteously, that men would say that they did weep and mourn, as if they had buried their father and mother. But it is easy to be seen, that they are not so sorrowful as they seem they are: But that those are the tears of the Crocodile, who Crocodili la. chrymae. The weeping of the Crocodil weary when he would eat and devour men. Wherefore the more I behold them, so much the truer do I find the answer of him, of whom one asked what kind of people do live now a days most joyfully and freely upon What men are most free and privileged. the earth? and who have the greatest franchises and privileges? Thomas. What answered he? hilarius. That they were the Priests and the Phistcians. For the Priests are always joyful and merry as you hear them sing at the burials, when all the other do weep and lament. The Physicians also have great liberties The privilege of the wicked Physicians and hangmen. Plin. li. 29. c. 1. Medico tatum hommem occidisse impunitas summa est. and franchises. For it is lawful for them to kill men, not only without receiving punishment for it, but which is more, they have and receive money for their labour? Thomas. The hangmen are as much privileged. hilarius. You say true, I am abashed that Pliny hath not joined them together, when he did speak of the privilege of the Physicians. But it seemeth unto me, that they aught yet to have wages of the Priests. For they do not neglect and forslow their business, but do bring goodly hides into The tan fat of the priests. their tan fat. Theophilus. Yea the barbarous and ignorant Emperiques and Arabians, which aught to agree with them, and the Theologians Sophistes. But they cannot get much with the cunning Physicians and which are of a good conscience. Hillarias. And therefore me thinks that those cannot well agree with the Priests, For the Priests desire none other thing but death: And the good Physicians The good Physicians. do not travail but to drive death away, & to give health, and to keep and maintain the life of men. Thomas. There is nothing truer than that thou sayest. For I myself have heard them how they do rejoice of their poor parishieners, and say the one to the other, in going to the tavern: Let us go drink upon the first skin that will come. Theophilus. What mean they by that? A new proverb of the priests. To drink upon the skin to come. hilarius. I do understand their proverb. But I am not much abashed, although you do not understand it, for it is not in the Chiliades of Erasmus. They compare the poor people to the beasts, of whom they are the boutchers and flears, as they themselves confess by their proverb. And nevertheless The butchery of the priests. Eusebius is angry when we do name them by the names that they themselves have given them. For what other thing doth their proverb signify, but as the boutchers and flears have the profit and gain of the skin and hide of the beasts whom they flay: Even so also have they the profit of the dead bodies of which they flay. I have herded them myself, how they rejoice, when they hear that there is any rich man sick and in danger of death, and how they say let us make good cheer: For we shall have by and by here a good skin for shoes and for the tan fat. There is neither Tanner nor Cordwaytter Hides for shoes Tanners and Shoemakers of men's skins. so wealth as those are. For all the other know not to make their profit but of the skins & hides of beasts: But these here do occupy the skins of men. And although that they be unprofitable for any work, nevertheless they do make of them more gain, then of any other, insomuch that all the gain that: the Tanners do with their marroquino and untanned hides, and the Cordwamers with their shoes, is nothing in comparison of that which these do get with their trade. The reproach of the country man against the priests Thomas. I assure thee that I do know a man at Couppet which is besides Geneun, who hath made this reproach unto the Priests of the same place, and said unto them. You have drunken upon my skin, but you shall pay the shot if you will for more: For I will not disburse any penny or farthing. hilarius. Wherefore said he that? Thomas. Because that The dead doth mock the priests. he was sick of long time, & during his sickness the Priests hoping that he would have died in short time, went to the Tavern to drink upon his skin: But he deceived them, & did not to them the pleasure they looked for: For he died not, but is yet alive to this day. hilarius. The dead hath then deceived & mocked them as well as the old men who do spend all their goods under hope that they shall dye in short time, & afterwards, as men say, were constrained to go beg at the gates & doors, desiring to give some almose unto those poor people whom death hath beguiled. These Priests have as The complaint of the Curate. great occasion to complain of him, as the Curate had, who (as men say) complained of his Parishioners, saying: what would you have me do my Parishioners? you will neither offer nor yet dye. Whereof do you think that I can live? have you determined the I should dye with hunger? do you not think Eusebius, the one may say the same of them that Seneca hath written of Aruncius and Aterius, and of other Seneca si. 6. de benef. Auruncius Aterius. Captatores testamentorum. Hunters & watchers after heritage's and testaments. Libitina Libitinarij. Vespillones. Matrons are those which do bury in the time of the plague. like, who do make it an occupation & science to purchase after heritage's & to watch after testaments, saying that they have the same desire which the Matrons had, & those who make it an occupation to bury the dead bodies, & to furnish & prepare that which is necessary for the burials & funerals. For the greater that the number of the dead bodies are, so much is the game the greater both of the one and the other. And therefore says he: Those the do make it an occupation to bury the dead know not of whom they aught to desire death: But these hunters & watchers after testaments & heritage's, do desire that their friends & kinsmen should die. If the Priests of the paynim had been like unto our Priests, I doubt not but that they would have joined unto those here. For they desire as much the death of men, and more than those, sith that they make & do the occupation both of the one & the other. Wherefore when I hear them sing their songs so piteously and lamentable, about the dead, & their graves, me thinks that I Proverb. Flere adnovercae tumulum. The means to comfort the I Priests. Minius. Haredis status sub persona lisus est. see children cry, as the proverb says, at the burying of their stepmother. And that they are like unto the little children, who do weep & laugh all with one wind, & by and by are appeased, so the when one giveth them a piece of bread, or an apple, and that which they ask for: Even so we must appease those & give them money to comfort them. Afterwards as soon as they have received it, behold them mapings & lamentations are ended, their sorrow is turned into joy, & Requiem into Gaudeanius. Theophilus, This that you speak seemeth to be sour & sharp unto Eusebius: But I am certain that if he did read a little the which S. Cyprian hath written against Cyprian. tract. 1. cont. Demet. Nec infirmes exhibetur misericordia & defunctis avaritia inhiat acrapina, & appetuntur spolia mortuorum. The minstrels at the burials Siticines, Tibicines. the avarice & greediness of the Priests & Prelates, & of their rapine & theft towards the dead, in his book against Demetrian, he shall find the thing a little more sweeter and pleasant. hilarius. I do think the they determine none other thing but to abolish all the institution of the true Church of jesus Christ, for to reduce & bring it to jewishness and Panimry. The ancient paynim have accustomed to hire for ready money some minstrel or many minstrels after the estate of him that dieth, who shall sing with their instruments many lamentable and pitiful songs, of the calamities & miseries of the old time, for to comfort the parents & friends of the dead, hearing of other men's misfortunes, and letting them to understand thereby that they were not alone. For as men do commonly say: The consolation & comfort Alexadr. Appro in proble. of the miserable is to have compaignions'. They do it also, to the end that thorough the harmony of the instruments they should be drawn away & feel less dolour and grief. The minstrels than do accompany the pomp and funeral procession, and play their notes before the dead body, sounding their Trumpets, Flutes & Drum for to move the hearers Plato de leg. li. 12. to sorrow and lamentation. Sometime they do sing of the praise of the dead, & according to the note that the minstrel doth sound, & the affections that he giveth to his songs & instruments, the parents & friends of the dead do strike their breasts and begin to weep & lament, and not content with Lamenters' that, but do hire some to lament & weep, for to help them to sorrow and weep and to sing the complaints, and Threnodes. Tremnistriae. Praesicae. Biernoys Naevius Alexandrians. chiefly women, because that they are by nature more pitiful and myleh hearted to weep, as the Biernoys besides Gascoigne and in Alexandria do yet use unto this day, and do so their office, that one would say that the matter toucheth them. They have also accustomed in many places to shave their beard in token of sorrow and mourning. Thomas. Whereto serveth all that for the dead? Haec quidem me hercle praefica si mortuum laudat. Coel. Rho. lec anti. 17. c. 22. Herod. Tranq. The honour dew unto the dead. Gene. 3. d. 19 Vir. Aene. 11 Interea socios, in humalaque corpora terra. Mandamus qui solus honos. Acheronte sub imo est. 1. Thessa. 4. c. 13 The burial of the Barbarians Herod. jerom. in lovi. lib. 2. Tertul. in Marcio. Friar Genure. Lib. consor. fol. 63. hilarius. Whereto serveth for them now all the that the Priests do? What greater honour can we do unto them, then to bury them honestly in the earth, following the sentence of God, which hath said: Earth thou art and into earth thou shalt return again. Theophilus. The true servants of God, patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles, have not much used any other Ceremonies, and we know not to follow a better rule and example than there's, and the admonition which the Apostle doth give unto us. He forbiddeth us expressly the we should not sorrow for those the are fallen a sleep, as the paynim and Gentiles do who have no hope. The holy Apostle would not bring us to such barberousnesse as hath been sometime used among the paynim, who did eat the dead bodies, or else did give them to be devoured & torn in pieces with dogs, birds & fish, without burying them: As many authors as well paynim as Christians do witness it of the Scythians, Indians, Bactrianians, Hyrcanians, Pontickes, & other such like barbarous people. hilarius. I think the Friar Geneure who is so much praised in the book of the conformities of saint Frances, came from some of those Nations. For among all the other marvelous virtues which are reported of him, this is one, that he caused the Devils to flee away seven miles without ever returning again. It is written in the same book, that he said: I would to God that when I shall dye there do proceed and come out from my body such a stink, the none dare to come near it, & finally that men would cast me out without burying of me, & that I might dye all alone, abominably & that they would suffer me to be devoured of the dogs. Theophilus. Some have accused the Lutherians for that they make none account of the dead bodies, because they condemn the superstitions of the Papists: But I do not think that ever any of them would speak so unhonestly, neither of his own body, nor yet of any others. Yet Diogenes. Cic. Tus q. 1. Diogenes had more honesty, how dogish soever the he was. For although the he did not much take care for his burying, yet he commanded not that one should give his body to the dogs. It is true the he did say, that he had no great care how he should be buried: For those that shall have the house will not suffer him to rot within it. And if they do cast it out, at the lest let them cast a staff after it for to defend and keep it from the dogs. I know not in what Theology this Friar Geneure hath learned that honesty. For the Apostle speaketh not after that sort. Also I would not that we should be so superstitious in the burying as were the Grecians, Romans, and other like people, who esteemed Grecians and Latynes. themselves more humane and honest, and that we should so lament and sorrow for the death of our parents and friends; as they did: as though we had no more hope and trust of the resurrection than they, and as though we did think them altogether dead and lost. And although that there was more greater moderation in this among the jewish people, then among all the other, and that they did keep an ●●der more agreeing to nature, yet nevertheless the Apostle would that we should be bold and constant, forasmuch as we have more certain and sure witness of the resurrection of the dead, and more greater and excellenter revelation of the Gospel, than this ancient people had: at the leastwise that we do not worse than they, but that we may witness through our constancy and countenance the The sorrowing for the dead faith that we have in jesus Christ, and our hope in his resurrection. The Apostle says not simply: Sorrow not for those that are fallen a sleep, and be not sad. For that should be Stoic like, and of men he would make stones and blocks of wood, without any affection: But the doctrine of the Gospel importeth not the same. For although What affections the Gospel doth permit. that the Gospel of jesus Christ doth correct and mortify the wicked affections of the flesh, yet nevertheless it depriveth nor spoileth man from all humane affection, but amendeth only that which is vicious, thorough the natural corruption, proceeding from the sin of man. It is impossible that we can be wout dolour & sorrow, although we would, when we do see the afflictions and miseries of our brethren, being of our flesh and blood, The holy Scripture hath not condemned the sorrow and heaviness that Abraham conceived Genes. 23. c. and Genes. 50. a. 1 Mat. 14. b. 11 Act. 8. 2. 21 Act, 11. 2. ● for the death of Sara his wife, & Isaac of his mother, joseph of his father jacob: The Disciples of S. john, & of jesus Christ, & of s. Steven, & of s. james, of the tears the they have shed & of the sorrow that they made: For man cannot be man, without being moved to pity and compassion, seeing the calamities of others, & feeling the damage that he himself receiveth. Therefore S. Paul speaketh very sharply, when 1. Thess. 4. c. 13 he said, that the faithful should not be sorrowful as the paynim and Infidels, who have no hope of the resurrection. Sigh then that he condemneth the doings of the paynim, we aught not to keep them, except we would be rather counted paynim then Christians. It aught then to suffice us to bury honestly the bodies of the dead, and to put them in the earth as in their bed, tarrying and looking for the coming of jesus Christ, and the general resurrection of all flesh. Therefore the Christians do call the place that is appointed for their burial Cimiterium, because that it is as the bed, couch and dortoire of the faithful that be The Churchyard & dortoyr dead. And therefore it is good to have some certain honest and comely place, as a common repository of the Christians, Those do dishonour god which do not bury honestly the dead. 1. Cor. 6. 1. 10 and public witness of the resurrection of the flesh. For we should do great wrong unto our bodies which are the temple of God, in whom God dwelleth, and which have been consecrated and made holy through the blood of jesus Christ unto his honour and glory, and dedicated unto the immortal inheritage of his kingdom, if we do cast them to dogs, fowls and wild beasts, as she carrion of wild and brute beasts, as though they should live no more after they were dead, and be no partaker of the immortality, no more than beasts. Their bodies aught to be more dear unto us, and more joined and knit unto us than their apparel, as Basile witnesseth. For that cause the patriarchs and true servants of God Bas. servi. 2. Mana. ca 13 Genes. 23. d. 19 Genes. 25. 2. 7 Genes. 17. g. 19 Tho. 1. 2. 3 were praised, and namely Thoby, not for that they caused singing, prayers, & offering for the dead, and in spending their substance without necessity upon the dead: But because they have delivered them again to the earth their mother job. 1. d. 22 from whom they came out: and that they have so honoured them by their burying, without sparing that which was necessary for the bodies of the servants of God, for whom he was glorified. And the paynim themselves were greatly afraid to suffer those to lie unburied who have lived Those that do kill themselves are deprived of their burial. Sopho. in Aiace fla. 24. d. 5. Si non louse. etc. Cum homo. & de poe. dist. 3. c judas. honestly, and did not deprive but those who thorough despair did kill themselves, as yet unto this day it is ordained by the Canons. But the paynim oftentimes, do but cut off the hand that committed the fact, judging it unworthy to be buried with the body, to whom it hath done violence. Also in some places they do punish with such insamy those that commit sacrilege, and that kill their fathers and mothers, and others that have committed such execrable crimes: notwithstanding that the Hebrews after that they had satisfied to justice, buried them, and would not suffer that the josep. aut. li. 4. ca 6. Esa. 14. c. 19 jere. 22. c. 19 The burial of an Ass. burial should be denied not to the enemies, as josephus witnesseth: And the Lord by his Prophet declareth unto the tyrant of Babylon, that he shall have no place to be buried in: And threateneth joachim that he shall be buried among the Asses, because of his infidelity and tyranny. hilarius. The paynim had some appearance to do that, & used not such cruelty as our Priests, who for default of money do refuse the burial, not only unto the old folk, but also to the little Infants. And how many times doth it happen, that they have excommunicated some poor labourer or busbandman, Excommunication for money. for twenty or thirty soubs, yea, for three, & if he do die being so excommunicated by them, having not wherewith to pay, they have denied him the place to be buried with the other christians: In c. ex part de sepult. Extra. de torn. ca De peni dist. 6. c. 1. 1. Thess. 4. a. 5 or else he must buy it dearly? And yet nevertheless there Canons deny not that Churchyard, but to those who are no Christians, or who do kill themselves: or to those the have been killed in doing some wicked act, as adultery, larceny, murder, & jewish plays. I am greatly abashed where they & we have had the understanding. S. Paul & Moses do forbidden us expressly, to be confirmable to the imitations of the paynim & Idolaters, it that in despite of them we have not taken any other mirror, nor have studied in any other thing. For what difference is there between our funerals and burials & there's? The ringing of Bells. Have not we the Bells in steed of the Minstrels that the paynim had? And even as they had the Minstrels that were best allowed, according to the estate and condition of the people, so have we the Bells, Priests & Monks. When The burying of the rich. there dieth any Prince or noble man or rich man, that hath well wherewith to pay, they will bury him with the trumpet, with many torches, with great pomp & procession, & with a great company of Minstrels, and of men and women, for to sing, weep and lament about him, as it doth well appear by the description that Virgile made of the burying and funerals of Pallas the son of king evander, saying, that after that he was known to be dead in the City, and that the Citizens did understand that men did bring the body, and that it was already at hand, did as followeth. Th'archadians most suddenly, unto the gates than came, The burial of Pallas. Vir. Aene. 11 Holding the torch's funerals, already for the same. According to their old fashion, their guise and eke custom, And every one his torch did light, that served in that room. Marching so well before the hearse, by order on a row, That there was none among them all, out of order did show. Giving such great a shining light, the way the which they went, With the dead corpse & pomp so great, which to his grave him sent. That all a far and round about, the fields that are full fair, Did give such light and servant heat, which flamed in the air. And in an other place speaking of the weepings & lamentations done over the dead, says: Even to the heavens ascended is, of men the doleful cry, Vir. Aene. 11 And eke the sound of the trumpets, lamenting piteously: And hesids all these things, the rich men were carried to the earth upon a goodly Beer, with great magnificence and pomp, the which the Satirical Poet hath comprised in a few verses, speaking of those which through their excess, and for that they follow not the counsel of the Physician, and keep not good diet do kill themselves saying. With such like train they march before, with trump & torches bright Persius. Sa. 3. To guide the rich man to his grave, a goodly gorgeous sight. Who on a curious coffin lies, & mourners bear his beer, And all his friends bewail his death, with sad & mourning cheer. On the contrary part, if there do dye any poor man, The burial of the poor. or any young child, or man of small calling, they do bring him simply with a little procession, and a small company, and the most times in the night, for the causes which already before have been touched, and they had but one little Flute. Of which among others the Poet Statius doth witness it writing of Archanorus, after this manner. But when poor men or children dye, their burial is not brave. A little Flute doth serve their turn, to bring them to their grave. Statius. Sigh that we are fallen into the talk of the Flute, I Pli. si. 19 c. 43 The burial of a Raven. do remember an history that Pliny maketh mention off, of a Raven that was at Rome, who had learned to speak, insomuch that every morning he went into the open streets and saluted the Caesars, to wit Tiberius, Germanicus, & Drusius, by their proper names, and also the people of Rome: For which cause he was so well beloved, that when he was dead, the people of Rome put him to death that had killed him, and made such great sorrow and lamentations, that they celebrated funerals and pomps for him, so that he was carried to the grave upon a goodly beer, very trimly decked & adorned, the which two Aethiopians or black Moors did bear upon their shoulders, with a great number of garlands & crowns of flowers, & a Fluter which played upon the Flute before until they came to his grave. Thomas. Is it possible that the Romans, who have been so greatly esteemed thorough out the whole world, to have been so foolish? hilarius. They witness it themselves by their own histories: and you must understand, because that the dead body was black, it was carried by two Aethiopians or black Moors, as he was. But if they Black monks. had had of lacopins, Augustine's, or Moonkes of the order of Saint Bennet they had been a great deal fit for that office: and so the Ravens should have carried the Raven to the grave, and should have put him in the Paradise of the Ravens. And doubt not, that if the Ravens, Dogs, and Asses had wherewith to bury them, and that the Priests might get so much money from them as they do from the rich men, that they would spare them no more than they do the rich, and would have no more pity and compassion of their souls, then of the souls of men. I do marvel of nothing but of this that the Romans used rather the Flute in those funerals of the Raven, than the Trumpet The burial of the poor. unde versus. Dum moritur dives, concurrunt undique civet. Dum pauper moritur, vix unus adesse videtur. sith that in all the rest he was buried as solemnly as the rich men be. And what do our Priests? If any great Usurer be dead, they run by and by to the great bell. There is not a Church nor parish but that all the bells are walking, insomuch that they make a greater noise than the Cyclopes do with their Hammers and Mallets. I would counsel them to do as the women of the Lacedæmonians did when their king was dead, who did run about the country sounding and tinging of fire pans, pots and basins (as men do after Bees when they swarm) for to declare the death of their king. After that the bells are Herod. once set in order a ringing, behold from all quarters do come, Monks, Priests, white, grey & black, smokid of all colours as Owls and Shrichowles, Ravens, Eagles, Wolves, and Dogs do after carrion, and they have no need to shave themselves, as the paynim do, for to lament and be sorrowful. For they are already shaven of themselves as the Priests of the babylonians, Egyptians, and the Priests of Isis are: and are clothed with linen & white Barue. 6. d. 30. jer. in Eze. 24 Herod. in Enterp. Plin. shirts as they are. They do serve for all: In steed of Minstrels, singers, wéepers and lamenters. And even as those Panim Minstrels did sing pitiful and lamentable songs, and the evil fortunes of men, for to comfort the parents, even so have these our Priests and Moonkes turned the book of job into such lamentations and complaints. The book of job dedicated to the dead. Ex conc. Thol. 3. 23. q. 2. c Qui divina. Theophilus. Nevertheless it is concluded in the counsel of Tholet, that those which are called of the Lord from this world, aught to be carried to their grave, only with singing of Psalms, the rather to witness and declare that they do not so mourn and lament as the paynim do, then for any other thing, and also to declare the hope of the resurrection. hilarius. There was more appearance, in that which the Idolaters did, for they did sing in a language understanded of all men, & if the songs did not serve any thing to the dead, yet at the lest they served somewhat to those that were alive: But the roaring and bellowing of our Priests and Moonkes do serve neither for the one nor the other, but only to accroche and get to them money, and to 'cause it to come as the Birds to the call: except peradventure they would allege the reason of Macrobius which saith, the men do accompany the dead to the grave with Macrob. in some. Scipi. li. 2. ca 3. singing, because the paynim believe after the the souls are separated from the bodies, they do follow that sweet harmony, & with the same go up to Heaven. For money were of the opinion of Herophilus, Dicearchus, and Aristoxenus, Herophilus, Dicoarchus. Aristoxenus. Cic. Tusc. li. 1. of whom Cicero maketh mention, who said that the soul was not altogether nothing, or only a harmony, the which taketh pleasure with that pleasant singing and melody: and goeth with it: And God grant that these here do believe the souls to be immortal, and that they may have a better opinion than those had. And also as touching the torches that the paynim carried, there was some honest cause wherefore. For they carried them partly for to kindle Torches at the funerals. The ancient custom. wood that was prepared for to burn the dead bodies withal, because that when they were come to the place appointed & ordained for the same, the nearest of kin did take one of those torches, and kindled the fire, as Virgile hath sufficiently declared it, speaking of the burying of Misenus, after this manner: In mourning sort, some heave on shoulders high the mighty beer. Vir. Aene. 6. (A doleful service sad) as children do their father's dear. Behind them holding brands, them flame uprising broad doth spread, And oils and dayntyes cast, and Frankensens the fire doth seed, Also in some places they have need of them, because that they do bury them in the night, after the law of Demetrius The law of of Demetrius Phalareus. Cael. Rho. le. an. li. 17. ca 20. Phalereus, who hath so ordained it for to correct the superstitious pomp and pride of those exequys and funerals: which were too excessive, insomuch that many did bestow great cost about them, and afterwards they themselves wanted: as it happeneth daily to many, who bestow great treasure upon the dead, and do dye with hunger in their houses: nor leave wherewith to pay their own debts, nor those of the dead, and do keep back that which is due unto the good people, for to give it to the Priests. Because of those torches the Latenists do call at this day the burials Funus, because that they were made Funus Funeralia. The burials of the Turks. with cords, the which they call Funes, as they do call them yet now. But the Turks have a better order and of more appearance in that, than we. It is very true that they have some things like to our superstltions. For in the burying of the rich men and men of honour, their Priests whom they call in their language Thalassanians, do follow them a great number, according to the richness and estate of the dead, singing often times this Song and Lctany: God is God, and the true God, & Magman the Bessenger of God. But they have this goodness, that they do 'cause the Binges and Princes to build for some of them jemples, Foundations for the poor. for others Bospitalls. for sepulchres and graucs, the which they every with great revenues and rents: not for to nourish the idle priests, but for to sucecur the necessity and no d● of the poor and needy. Eusebius. All your matters are nothing but: ful of mocking and slaunderinges. Doth not all pain and travail require a reward? Is it not good reason that the parents and friends, which have the goods of the dead, and become their heirs, should recompense the Pricstes somewhat: Hath not jesus Christ said that the labourer is worthy of Lue. 10 b. 7. his reward? If the Priests would do that without taking any thing, the heirs and friends should make great cheer with the goods of the dead, and in the mean while the poor Priests, which do travail for them should die of hunger: And so by that means one should find none that would do. that office nor which would be a Priest. hilarius. That should be a great incenuenience and very evil for the Christianity, chiefly for the poor souls of Purgatory, who should have no more advocates nor intercessors between God and the Virgin Mary, for to deliver them from those pains. Theophilus. I confess that we must not moossell the Those that are the true Ministers are worthy of nourishment. Deut. 25. a. 4. 1. Cor. 9 b 9 1. Timoth. 5. c. 18 mouth, of the Ox that treadeth out the corn, and it is also good reason that he that serveth the Gospel, should live of the Gospel: But what travail do those here take: what services do they, either to the quick or to the dead? hilarius. To eat up and devour their goods and substance. Theophilus. That which you have alleged is against yourself. For when jesus Christ saith that the workman Mat. 10. b. 10. is worthy to have his meat, he speaketh of the Ministers of the Gospel, and not of Minstrels. He hath not commanded the Christians to feed and give meat to Minstrels for to have them sound in their ears: but Ministers for to preach the gospel to them. He letteth us to understand that we must work and travail in the ministery of the Gospel, by that that he saith the workman, not the idle and slougthfull. Afterwards he declareth that he would not have the Ministers of his Church covetous, 1. Timoth. 3. a. 3 l itus. l. b. 7. 1. Pet. 5. a. 2. nor given to filthy lucre nor insatiable, when he declareth that the meat is due to the Pastors of the Gospel, but aught to content themselves, as the holy Apostle to be cloto c●, nourished and kept according to their estate and condition: without super fluity, which may 'cause them to for get God, and without to great need, which may hinder them to exercise their office: But these here do never cease to a●●e and to catch, & yet they do no works that serve for the health of men It wine a great deal better the they would The ligrification of heals Durant in Ramires dui. off li 1. Rub. de camp. show forth ineffect the which they say their bells do signify, then to have beiles for to represent it. They do interpret that the sound of their bells doth signify the sound of the word of God, the which they aught to preach unto the people and that the bells do signify the prophets and ministers of the gospel, who aught to sound in the Church of God: But they do leave all the charge unto the bells, and will not viedle with it. Have they not well provided for the christian people, good preachers? Hillarias, You do not understand their practice. They are wiser than you think. Me thinks that men The bellsand Images the Priests Vicars cannot complain of them, as touching the office of preaching; for they have so well provided, that one cannot rebuke them. It is very true, that they do not preach: But they have so many the more vicar's to supply their office. Have: they not the Churches full of Images? For you Grego. ad Sere. Epise. Massil. par. 10. Epist. 4. know that their Images are lay men's and sooles' books, as they tell us. But I know not what books they are, nor on which side they must take them to open and read in them, or whether we must begin at the beginning, as the Oreekes, Latined, Frenchmen, and others like: or at the end, and so go backward, & clean contrary to others, as the Hebrews and Chaldees do. We have assayed them, and have taken very sharp Batchettes and Ares, for to open the leaves, which are so saste stirched and glued together, that it is impossible to open and separate them a sunder, except we do hue and cut them in pieces. We have looked before and behind: towards the head and the feet, the belly and the back, but we could never so any letter, neither to know whether they were written in Greek, Hebrew or Latin, nor yet in what language. To conclude, we found nothing there, but Mice, Pitch, Spiders, and such filthyvesse. But if they be the lay men's books, whereto serveth then for them preachers, have they not found them ready at hand and the most fit as is possible to find? First of all they could not have found them more fitter for them. For they do neither eat nor drink, nor their meat and fire costeth them any thing. But which is more, they nourish and keep them about them, and do well declare, that they are not vicar's without cause. For the offerings that they receive, they make a good account, and do pay a great revenue to their Curate and Bishop. Du the other side, should not the people have great wrong to complain? For they are gracious preaches. They never rebuke any man, but let every one do as he lisse. If the prophets, Apostles and ministers of the Gospel were such pleasant preachers, they should not be so much hated, nor evil entreated of men, but men would offer unto them candles, and hiss their f●●t, ●s they do those But thore is a great fault in them, for the which we must provide. For not withstangding that they have, goodly Os habent & non loguentur: oculoshabent et non videbuns': manut halent & non palpebunt, pedes habent & non ambulabunt, et non clamabunt in guttere suo. 1. Cor. 14. b. 9 Act. 2. b. 7 mouths, yet nevertheless they speak not, because they have no voice. Wherefore they have the bells for are compence, which have the voyes for to speak in stende of them although that they have lso mouths: But the Images have the countenaucos and do furnish the mouth & the bells the voice, for to fulfil that which is written: except you speak words that have signification, how shall it be understanded what is spoken? For you shall but speak in the air, and as a tinkling simbal, and there is yet another secret, which every one understandeth not. All those that did hear the Apostles in Jerusalem upon the day of Pentecost, were cssonyed, because that not withstanding they were Galieans, yet nevertheless all of what language soever they were of, did understand them speak as if it had been their own & native tongue & common to all the he arers. Now inasmuch as ye●els are the Popes & ● Priests apostles, all of them because that they have not that gift of God, would counterfeit that miracle by their bells. For they do The bells do speak all languages. speak all languages, and such as it pleaseth the hearers. And what sound soever they have, they speak that which the hearer hath in his fantasy, as every one may know by experience, and I myself can witness the same. For when I was a young child, and that I did hear the bells toll as I went to school, I did think that they said sometimes that which some had put in my head: Lost labour, thou shalt be beat: and I was always afraid that they had said true. Even so it happened unto a widow who The widow asked counsel of the bells. desired much to marry, but she was ashamed to tell it, therefore he sent her to the bells whom she asked counsel, knowing well her affection, and that she would do but that which was in her fantasy, whatsoever counsel one gave unto her. When it was appointed that she should hear the counsel that the bells gave unto her, she thought that they said unto her: Mary thee: afterwards when she was married, and that her husband which was very jealous had well beaten her for going or gadding abroad many times, and had well drused her bones, seeing that that feast should always last, she rebuked him that did give her that counsel: and said unto him: My friend you have not well understanded the bells: Go presently and give good ear; and you shall see if they say not the contrary: the which so happened. For because that her fantasy was past she did think that the bells said: Mary not. Wherefore I conclude that I have sufficiently proved mine intention, and that the Priests have very well provided for us Preachers, and such as appertain unto us: of whom we aught to content ourselves. For fools would always that one should counsel them after their own fantasy. And because that we are fools, we desire such Preachers which speak after our own fantasy. But we cannot better find them but at the bells. Theophilus. It was commanded in the law, that when the high Bishop entered into the Sanctuary, that he was clothed with a gown of jacinte, which had Bells & Pomgranards hanging at the The Pomegranards and bells that did hung upon the vestment of the high Priest. Exo. 28. e. 34. hems. By which things I cannot understand, but the by the Pomgranardes' which are of a sweet savour, the Lord would figure jesus Christ, who hath been to him a sacrifice of a sweet savour: And admonisheth all the true pastors of his Church, to be by their holy life & conversation, a sweet savour of the Gospel unto the poor and simple people, as S. Paul saith, that he hath been. By the Bells, that the high Priest aught to be herded when he entereth into the sanctuary, nor I doubt not but that also he hath figured the preaching of the Gospel, by the which jesus Christ and his Apostles have awakened all the world: and after their Ori. in Exo. 28 e. 34. example all the good shepherds of the Church and flock of Christ aught to do, as Origine doth expound it, saying: That the high priest should also have round Bells about his bestment, the he entering into the Sanctuary, should be herded, and that he should not enter with silence. And those Bells which aught always to sound, are put in the hem of the bestment, and that is to that ends that thou shouldst never hold thy peace until the end of the world, but that always thou be heard thereby, that thou do dispute, and speak, as he which saith: Remember the end or the latter things, and thou shalt not sin. Behold the exposition of Origine, the which I would gladly they would follow, and that they would consider that sith that the time of ceremonies is passed, we have no more need of their Bells, for to figure unto us that which hath been figured of the high Priest: But the in steed of the figure & shadow, they would give unto us the verity of the things figured, after the example of jesus Christ, and of his Apostles: or if they will yet keep and hold us in shadows and figures, it is better for than to follow those of Moses, then to invent & make for us new, as they do. For they cannot find better, nor more proper: If they do ring or toll their Bells, for to call the people together to the Church, for to preach unto them the word of God: or when any man is dead, for to admonish every one of man's infirmity & weakness, & to preach onto them the judgement of God. & to teach every one how he aught to prepare himself to dye, and to confirm & strengthen them in the hope of the resurrection, declaring unto them that the blood of jesus Christ is the true Purgatory of the souls, and that there is none other, their ringing and singing would have a little more appearance, and should be more conformable to the ancient Church: But they do it altogether for none other end but to induce and lead the people to superstition, and for to strengthen them in their opinion of purgatory, making them Durant in Radivi. off. li. 1. Rub. de camp. & 4. li Rub. de ac. pont. ad alt. The, bells to drive away devils. The banner & the cross. to pray for the dead, without any word of God. But do they not yet allege an other goodly reason, saying: that they do ring their Bells in their processions, funerals, and at other times, to that end to make the devils afraid, and to compel them to flee: For they say that those are the trumpets of the Church militant, of which the devil hath as great fear, as a tyrant hath when he heareth that one giveth him the Larame, and as the sound of the Trumpets and Drums of a puissant King or Prince, which is his enemy, and come for to discomfort him: For that cause say they, do they carry the banner and the cross, and that they 'cause the Bells to be rung and towled for the tempests, and also for to admonish the people to pray unto God: But it were a great deal better that they would make such admonitions Ephe. 6. c. 10 by the preaching of the Gospel, and that they would arm the people with the buckler of faith, & weapon them with the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, for to defend them against the Devil, & to drive him away. For these are the true weapons, which the Devil fears, and which S. Paul giveth to the Christian knight. hilarius. If that little children, or any old dreamers and fools had held the opinion, one could not but laugh: But is it not great shame that such men who would be esteemed and counted the pyllers of the faith, would forge and invent such a Theology? But have they not good leisure to baptise the Bells? Is The baptizing of bells. not that to mock and scoff with jesus Christ and his baptism, to baptise Brass and insensible metals? The adventurers or vagabonds which baptised a Calf, and called him a pike for to eat him in Lente in steed of a fish, had not they more cause to do for I do, judge that they think that one can drive away the Dyvelles as they do the birds from the vanes. If the Dyvelles were like unto the Bees, they would stay them rather: And I do fear that it happeneth so well unto them. For as far as we can perceive by their works, there is not a people that hath so many Dyvelles about them. But you have let Durant. in diui. off. si. 1. Rub de camp. out the best, that is, they say that at the solemn feasts we must ring much, and a long time for to awaken the drunckardes, and those that sleep. But will you have me tell you the true interpretation of The true signification of the bells. their Bells? Consider the form & fashion of a Bell. It hath a little head, but it hath the greater belly. Wherefore I cannot understand, according to the Moral, Allegorical or Anagogical sense, but that they do signify that they are no other thing but fat and slothful bellies, and that they Slothful bellies. pass not on the head, but only on the belly. And even as they are but bellies, they do also very well know that other men do love more the belly then the head, & notwithstanding that all have a goodly belly, and love it well, there are but a few which care much for the head, the brain, wit and understanding, nor which take any thought to have it. Wherefore I believe that they have determined so much to ring their Bells, that they may break altogether the head of those which have yet a very little, to that end, that neither wit nor understanding might abide in them. In such sort that we may well make it a Proverb, as well as the ancients have made it of the Basinnes, Caudrons and Bells of Dodonaeus. Behold the truest exposition friend Dodonaeum asdodonaes lebetes Zenodot. ex Aristoph. Eusebius that I can at this time give unto thee: And think not that thou canst give unto me a better nor more proper: except peradventure thou wilt say, that they do the same after the imitation of the Gallots, Curets, and Corybants, Priests of the Goddess The Priests cl Cybele. Cybele the mother of Gods, whom they do carry upon their shoulders in their processions, sounding of Cymballes, Herodot. Diodor. Drums, Bells, and other such instruments, which do make a great noise, with the cry and sound of their Letanyes, which they go singing after: as many Apule. de Asini li. 11. Lactan. lib. ca 21. The feast and procession of Cible. ancient Authors do witness, as well paynim as Christians, namely Lactantius which allegeth some verses of Ovid, who among others, in a few words speaking of her feast, comprehendeth all these things, saying: Then forthwith shallbe herded the home, Ovid Fast. 4. of Berecynthia blow, Of Cybele graundame of the Gods, thapproaching feast to show. And eunuchs playing upon Drums, whose noise the air doth fill, And ringing out the braying blast, of Trumpet sounding shrill. She on their shoulders sitting soft, is born about the Town, By Priests and servants of her own, with noise and shrieking sown. Epiphanius that good and learned Bishop and of great estimation among the ancients, did writ a book, that he Epiphanius. made of heresies, saying, that there were in his time, some women of Syria who did begin to carry in that sort the Image of the Virgin Mary and offered unto it oblations: But he Idolatry of the image of our Lady. says that the same superstition and Idolatry was repressed and beaten down through the diligence of good Bishops & pastors, knowing that the same was none other thing, but an imitation of the furor and madness of the paynim. Wherefore Epiphanius, numbereth that error in the Roll of the heresies that he hath made. And yet nevertheless our Priests have not ceased therefore to put it forth, and more greater Idolatry than ever was among the Priests of Cybele and Isis, after whose example they do carry their Idols, Relics, Hearses and Shrines, and for to declare that they are their successors, they have their heads shaven, & their surplice: & many other ornaments of linen and white clot, as those had, as the Poet saith: Attending on the goddess then, the crew both great and small, ovid. Are clad in linen garments white, to honour her withal. And again he saith. These shaven Priests in white arrayed, ensued the Goddess grace, And making noise with sound of Drums, did follow her a pace. Forasmuch then as it is thought that they make Devils afraid, and drive them away by the sound of the bells, those there then ought to make them tremble and quake. Wherefore I think that forasmuch as our Priests do say that their bells are the Trumpets of the great King, and that their streamers that they carry in their Processions, are his Enseigns and Banners, they aught also to carry and sound drums and Trumpets, for to make it better appear unto the Devil, that they will join a strong battle with him, & that they come not with false ensigns, & that their quarrel is not the sport and play of little children, and that they will not suffer Iwena. Ft ingens semiturobscoeno sacies reverenda minori. Mollia qui capta secuit genitalia testa. Dist. 36. ca 1l. literatos Dist. 55. ca si. quis To ring for the time. the ancient custom of their old ancestors and predecessors to be abolished whom we have of late named, from whom they do not much differ as touching their Ceremonies: But the most great difference that I can find, is, that these here are not so chaste as the others are, because they are not gelded as they are. For that should be against their orders and Canons, and many women would be barren, if we had not such Saints for to make them bear children. And as touching that that they do ring their bells against the time of thunderinges, lyghtenings and tempests, and that they do conjure them, they cannot deny but in the same they do follow the paynim, who had their exorcisms, coniuratione, ringinge and other manner of doings against them, which did not much differ from those of these here. It is very true that the Arisioph. in Vesp. Quod si fulguraro popissant. paynim had not such bells, because they were not then used as they are now: But in stead of them they clapped their hands the one against an other for to make an noise, & made a noise with their mouths, for to appease Piin. li. 28. c. 2. Fulgura popisi nis adorare consensus gentium est. Holy wood. remedies against the lightning. The Bay tree. The sea Calves The Eagle. Plin. li, 2. c. 55 and quallyfie the thunderings and lyghtenings, after the manner as men do clap their horses and make much of them, thinking that the same would serve in stead of a remedy, that the lightning should not strike them. Some did carry of the Bay tree, in steed whereof we did carry wood, leaves and boughs and branches of trees that had been hallowed upon Palm Sunday, & of Easter flowers, or the skins of Sea Calves, because that among all the Sea beasts, men say that lightening will not touch the sea Calf, nor the Eagle among the souls. Thomas. And for what served the Bay tree? hilarius. They had this opinion, that lightning would never fall upon it, nor could strike it, as almost all those the have written of his property & nature do witness it. They had also the art and manner to conjure the tempests, To conjure the time jupiter. Elicius. ovid. Fast. 3. Numa Pompilius. and to make the God jupiter come from heaven, for to adjure them and drive them away: the which they had learned and received of Numa Pompilius the second king of the Romans. Theophilus. I do not find in the Scripture that the people of God ever used such sorceries & conjurings, nor the they ever had any recourse to candles, holy water, holy wood, the bay tree, to the bells nor to the conjurations, for to drive away the lyghtnings & tempest. For that Tibullus. Hane ego ducentem de coelo sydera vidi: Fluminis haec rapidi carmine vertutur. Quum libet haec trists do●el lit nubila culo. appertaineth better unto the Magicians, Sorcerers, & Enchauntors, who do attribute unto themselves the power to move the heaven and earth, to move & stir up the lyghtnings & tempests, & to appease them, & to pluck the Moon and the Stars from heaven. But the true servants of God, in all dangers & perils, or if the heaven hath been shut up, so that it giveth no rain: or if it sendeth hails, thunder's & tempests: or it famine, plague, or drought have been on the earth: Quum libet aestivo provocat orb niver if the corn have been destroyed, or the Locusts & Caterpillars have destroyed the goods of the earth: or if they have been afflicted with any other kind of plague or malady, they use none other remedy but to turn themselves to God only with prayers, with true repentance of the sins and amendment of life. And the Lord hath always herded them, according to the request the Solomon made unto 3. Reg. 8. a. 1 2. Cro. 5. a. 1 him, when he dedicated to him his Temple. hilarius. They make me to remember those mockers and despisers of God, which were among the paynim, who did clap their feet together against the thunders & tempests, & for to Oppedere contra tonitiva. Salmoneut. Virg. Aeneid. 6 Vidi & crudelem dantem. Salmonia penas Dum slammas lovis & sovitus imitutur Olympi. The minstrels ●airus. Mat. 9 c 18. Mar. 5. c. 12 Luc. 8. f 41 show themselves more wicked, did open their bellies against them, in mocking & scoffing it: Of which these proverbs do yet continued. Even so it seemeth the those would mock God, & counterfeit these thunders as Salmoneus did. Eusebius You can declare and set forth unto me nothing but the paynim. But wherefore do you not allege unto me aswell the minstrels, and the singings, which the Israelites, that were the people of God, used in their burials? As it appeared by those which were in the house of jairus the chief ruler of the Sinagove when his daughter was dead, whom jesus raised to life again, & yet he rebuked not the ministrells: the which he would not have omitted if he had judged the same to be evil. Wherefore may we not have aswell bells & Priests for to sing, as those had The Priest's Minstrels. minstrels, for to incite & provoke them to lamentations & compassion upon the dead, & to pray to God for them with a better courage? Theophilus. You come to the end of my matter, & by that count the Priests do serve us in steed of minstrels. But it is to be feared that jesus will drive them out of his Church, as he avoided out those of jairus out of the chamber and house. For he will not have Priests for the dead, nor he sent his Apostles and Disciples, but for those that be alive. For the true evangelical Priests & Ministers of the Church, aught to be like unto the Physicians, who are always assistant unto men as much as they can, and A comparisoa of the true Priests and Phin●ous. help and secure them as much as is possible during their life for to keep them in health, or to heal them when they are sick, but after that they be dead, they have no more to do. For they cannot aid nor help them any more, therefore they do to them no more afterwards. But our Priests are Physicians, who suffer their Patients to dye, without helping them, after they will bring unto them medicines when they are dead: But jesus Christ would have no such: as he hath given us to understand by the answer that he made to one of his disciples, which asked him leave to go and bury his father, saying: Suffer the Mat. 6. c. 12. It was forbidden the Priests to be assistant at the burial of the dead. levit. 21. 2. 1. dead to bury their dead. But what appearance is there, that jesus Christ would occupy the Ministers of his church, and the true Cuangelycall Priests about the dead, sith that God would not only suffer that the high Priest of the law, and the other Priests should go to the burials nor that they should come nigh any dead bodies, except they were their fathers or mothers, or any of their nigh kinsmen? The which thing he pernutted not to the high Priest. The chance should be much changed, and the Gospel should have made us Priests very contrary and differing much from those of the people of God. For we do not read that ever they meddled with the dead, nor that they prayed nor offered sacrifices for them, notwithstanding the they were under the shadows & figures of the law, and in the time of the sacrifices, which now thorough jesus Christ are abolished. And our Priests do serve us always for none other thing, but to bóe letted about the dead. hilarius. It were a great deal better to hire the minstrels and lamenters as the ancients did, then to nourish and feed so many fat bellies, with so great dayntyes, and costs. For we should pay them no money but when we do set them to work, and they will serve us as much as those our Priests, whom we must keep all the year long, with great costs, charges and expeuces. I doubt not but that Moses did well foresee that. Therefore hath he thorough the spirit of God forbidden, that the Priests should not be present at the burials. I had rather that they would do as the Egyptians did, who did put the body of their Diodorus The custom of the Egyptians. king, when he was dead, before the entering in of the grave or sepulchre, afterwards did read a lystle book containing his acts, and that which the king had done during his life. And he that would might dispraise them. The Priests were there present, who did examine an judge of all the points. The people also were there present, and did clap their hands and rejoice at the praises of the king, and did vituperate and dispraise the vices. The same gave a certain fear unto the kings and Princes that they should not abuse their office, and did admonish them to be virtuous if they would have praise of men. for it did chance some times, that the king lived so wickedly and detestable, that they did judge him unworthy to be buried. The like did they of other men. In like manner the Greeks and Latins had a custom to praise the bertuous The Greeks & Latins Panegyres Orationer fune bres. A custom to praise the dead men after their death, & to make Drations in their praise, aswell for the consolation and comfort of their parents, as for to incitate and move others unto virtue, by their examples. For that cause they do rehearse their prowesses, their virtues and valiantness. And to make an honest mention at sometime for to encourage others to be virtuous. Thucydides witnesseth, that the custom to praise the dead did begin among the Greeks by Pericles, who Pericles. was the first that openly made an oration in the praise of those which were dead in the war of Peloponense. Also among the Romans, Valerius Publicola was the first, Valerius Public●la. which after that manner praised his companion Brutus, as witnesseth Titus Livius. Afterwards that custom hath continued among the Gentiles & Idolaters, If our Priests would serve us in that stead, the thing would be more tolerable: although the we have the word of God sufficient enough for to merte & move us unto virtue & honesty: But they serve us to none other end but to ease, and the greatest thoeves and usurers, are those unto whom they do the greatest honours, and give the greatest praises, and do bury them with greatest magnificence. But if any poor man do buy, that hath not ready money, scant and with much a do shall he have one Priest sore to bear him company, nor one scant to ring the little bell. Theophilus. There is no doubt but the the ancient Christians, because the some were come of the jews, & some of the paynim, have yet heaped many of the manners and customs that they used in their countries, the which yet nevertheless they have changed into a better use. For the jews and paynim had many things, which of themselves might be tolerable, and to serve to some kind of honesty and cluilitie, if the superstition and the foolish opinions had been taken away. In the ancient Church Commemoration of the dead. when that any faithful man was dead being constant in the faith of jesus Christ, and that he made a goodly confession in his death, they used to make a commemoration to the congregation, for to incite and stir up others to such faith and constantness, and chiefly when he hath been killed by the Tyrants, and that he hath been the true Commemoration of the martyrs martyr of jesus Christ, & in the mids of his torments hath constantly confessed the truth, and hath witnessed it by his death, and sealed it by his blood. For that cause the Notaries and pronotaries. Plati. in vit. Clem Ant he. lul. & Fabi. Notaryes and Protonotaryes were constituted and appointed, who were charged to writ truly and after the truth the Ecclesiasticull histories, the lives and doings of the holy Martyrs, & true servants of God, for the edification of the Church and congregation: for at certain times they made commemoration unto the Congregation of the faith and constantness of the Martyrs, for to comfort and for tesie the poor faithful in the mids of the persecutions that they suffered for jesus Christ, to the end that after the example of the Martyrs, they should prepare themselves rather to dye valiantly for the witness of the truth, then to renounce and forsake it. And the Dration and Sermon that Saint Ambrose made for Ambrose and Theodosius. the Emperor Theodosius after that he was dead, tended to none other end. And when the good ancient bishops praised after that sort the good servants of God, that had faithfully travailed in his work & vineyard, they did go about no other thing by that means, but to edify the congregation with good examples, even as the holy prophets and Apostles have described unto us the holy scriptures, the lives and acts of holy men, which have been called of God, for to instruct and teach us by their example. This manner of doing was not altogether to be despised, and it might be practised to ediflcation, if sathan the enemy unto all goodness had not altogether converted and turned it into superstition, Idolatry, and blasphemy, as we see and prove it daily. For from those beginnings the Prothonotaries are descended, whom we have yet at this present time, who keep only the name Prot honotaries of name. without exercising the office. For to what end do they serve us? Hillatius. To hunt after and so lay wait for benefices. What would you they should do, would you have them to writ and register the lives of our Popes, Cardinals, bishops, Priests and Moonkes? They will leave the charge of that The legend of the Papists. unto the Lutheriaus, which are their protonotaries, for to describe and paint out the legend of such saints and Martyrs of Venus, rather than of jesus Christ. For their life and conversation is so holy, that they had rather that men would never speak of it, and that the remembrance thereoff should be altogether defaced and forgotten. Yet I think that they rendered no great thanks unto Platine who hath written so much, although that he turned the sayest side outwards as Platins nigh as he could. Theophilus. This is yet the least fault of the Prothonotaries: But from that same fountain is risen and sprung up the error of invocation of Saints, The error touching the honour & invocation of saints of feasts, wanderings, blessings, relycks, pilgrimages, and all other Idolatry and superstitions, which men do commit daily about the Saints. For whereas in the ancient Church men did but only make mention of the life, faith and constantness of the Martyrs and Saints when the people assembled themselves in the Ecclesiastical assemblies, without invocating or praying to the Saints, but only unto God: Afterwards in process of time, the superstitious and Idolatrous Christians, have made of the Saints Gods, and have dedicated to them, Feasts, Temples, Altars and chapels. And have begun to sing Canenization Herodia. Hymns and superstitious songs in their honour & praise, after the same manner as the paynim and Idolaters did to their Binges and Emperors, when they Canonized them. And are not content to preach their lives and legend, as the ancients did: but have added unto it fables and lies. and have made to them Masses, in such sort, that Masses of saints for one supper of jesus Christ, we have more than three hundredth nullyons of Masses, all contrary and differing the one from the other. By that means the Prophecy, the preaching of the word of God, the Supper of jesus Christ, Prayers, and Ecclesiastical assemblies, and the true commemoration of the Saints, are altogether abolished, in such sort that there is nothing, but that it is altogether perverted and turned into more greater superstition and Idolatry, than ever it was among the paynim. As much happened about the other faithful that die, which are not counted for Canomsed Saints. For as on the one The original & beginning of the prayers lot the dead. side they are given to invocat & pray to the Saints, whom they believe to be in Heaven: Even so on the other side, they give themselves to pray for the dead, whom they think to have yet need of their prayers and good deeds, for to help them, and to prepare the way to Heaven, ●● steed of the simple commemoration that they did in the ancient Church, without using prayers for the health of their souls. but only exhortationn, adm●nitions & consclations, for the health and salvation of those that be alive. After that manner aught we to understand that which the ancient Ecclesiastical doctors have written of the faithful that dye, and of the care that we aught to have of them. And if peradventure it be so that Saint Ambrose, Crisostome, Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine, or any other the like, do seem to have written otherwise, yet nevertheless they will not allow such superstition as is at this day among the Christians: And although they should have done it, yet we are not bond to bel●eue them, without the authority of the Scripture. We are most certain of our side, that there is no place in all the holy scripture, by which one can prove that manner of doing, except one will mar and pervert the sense thereof. And for to declare the same more plainly, I demand of thee, what the Priests do in the name of the dead, do they it for those which are in hell? Eusebius. Thou mayst well perceive they do it not. For they themselves do sing, that in hell there is no redemption, Quia in inferno nulla est redemptio. Luc. 16. g. 26. as it is plainly declared unto us by the answer that Abraham made unto the wicked rich man, saying that there is a great space between those which are in the places of blessedness, and those which are in hell fire, unto whom the rich cannot have somuch only as one drop of water for to put upon his tongue for to cool it. Theophilus. Have those who are already in Paradise with the blessed any profit, of their suffrages and prayers. Eusebius. They have no more need of them. The Priests do not pray but for those which are in Paradise. Theophilus. And yet nevertheless they pray not but for those that be there, and I will take none other witness then themselves to prove it. I pray thee consider and examine well the Epistle taken out of the Reuclation of S. john, which they sing in their Mass for the dead & mark viligently how it agreeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio: And how is it possible that the faithful that die should be roasted and tormented in purgatory, and that they should be at rest, as they sing both the one and the other, speaking against themselves. They sing: Blessed are Apoc. 14. c. 13 Beati mortui qui in Dommo moriuntur. A modo iam di●it spiritus, us reautesant a laboribus suis. Opera en●m lilorum sequuntur illos. The estate of the faithful that do dye those which hereafter die in our Lord, even so says the spirit, that they do rest from their labours, But their works shall follow them. First they say: Blessed are they which die in the Lord And who be those that die in the Lord, but the good, faithful and the Christians? If they then are blessed, all the other which do not dye: in the faith of our Lord, are cursed. Eusebius. I deny it not. Theophilus. Wherein consists that blessedness and felicity? doth not Saint john give the reason, alleging not his authority, but the authority of he spirit of God, that he himself hath herded? saying: hereafter they rest from their labours. Thou dost well perceive that they are called blessed, because that by death they go and departed from the travails and wickedness of this world, and after the same do go into eternal rest and joy, sith than that it is so, what need they any longer to sing: Requiem eternam dona eyes domine: O Lord give them eternal rest, sith that they have it already? For they do not pray but for those which are dead in our Lord Eusebius. Thou interpretest the scripture for thy advantage and as it pleaseth thee. hilarius. Eusebius is always a good Gregorianist. But I do greatly fear that he Gregorianists. shall not escape Purgatory in the end. Eusebius. You shall not yet pluck it out of my hands for all that. For Saint john speaketh there properly, of the faithful, which have suffered, and which have been killed for the witness of the truth. For those have suffered sufficiently in this world, and have had their Purgatory. and accomplisned their penance. He speaketh not generally of all the Christians, but only of the Martyrs, whom the great beast hath persecuted. Theophilus. I agreed unto thee that the holy spirit speaketh that, chiefly for the consolation of the poor that be afflicted, which suffer persecution for the name of jesus, promising unto them rest, after the travails and wickedness of this mortal life, for to fortify and strengthen them in the cross, to that end they may be more patiented in tribulation, and that they should persever and continued boldly and steadfastly unto the end. But you can not deny, but that the sentence is general, and that it comprehendeth all the faithful. For they cannot be faithful without bearing rightly the cross of jesus Christ, and without having great pain and travail, after which they look for rest. And lest thou shouldst think that I have alleged that place evil to the purpose, I will tell thee yet farther, that it maketh not only Purgatory to fall down, but also the invocation of Saints. For sith that roast from The inuoca●tion of saints their labours is promised unto the Saints, and that the prayers which the holy men make for their neighbours, whilst they are in this life, are comprised and contained amongst the labours of the saints, we may conclude, that ●fter that they have ended the course of this mortal life, and finished their combat, that they rest them that labour as well as the other. For they have no more need but to praise God, and to give him thanks, and ought no more to be occupied for to serve men, sith that they are out of all necessity, and that they have ended the ministry that they had among men. At the leastwise, although that it be, we have not in all the holy scripture. example nor yet authority, for to endure and léad us to invocate them: But we have not now to debate upon that point, I have only desired to touch the same by the way. As to the other matter, touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory, for to take front thee that fantasy which thou have against my interpretation. I will confirm it unto thee by the very interpretatyou of the Priests, taken from the chiefest of the Canon of their Mass. Mark well the Memento that they say when they sing Mass for the dead. hilarius. Peradventure ho will not hear thee because he is altayd to be excommunicatod. And also hel● da●e you recite it● For you know very well that it is forbidden The Canon of the Mass & the Ale●ron are forbidden to be read. under pain of excommunication to all those that be not Priests, to read the Canon, and to recite it. Theophilus. Aswell is the Alcoran of Mahomet, under pain of death: But I will not be a frayed to read it for all that if I had it. For I build myself upon S. Paul, which saith: Cramine all things and keep that which 1. Thess●. 5. ●. 21. is good. Thomas. But it is otherwise of the Canon of the Mass for it is to be feared, that if the lay people should hear the sacramental words pronounced, they would do as the Priest, and that thereby would come great hurt. As Clythoveus doth declare and witness most evidently in his Clith. Eluci. li. 3. de. Cano. Clucidatory by the example of certain Shepehardes, who because they have herded and kept in mind the sacramental words, did put bread upon a stone, afterwards they pronounced the words. That bread (as they say) was converted and changed into flesh, after the pronunciation of & words. But fire and lightning fallen suddenly down from heaven upon them and killed them all. hilarius, The witness is well worthy of the Doctor, from whom it proceeded. But he is not the first that hath invented that fable. For Durant and others, that have written of that matter doth almost all of them allege it. Theophilus. Wherefore then hath jesus Christ commanded Rat. diui. off. li. 4. Nico. de plone. in tract. sacerd The Gospel published to all men Mat. 26. b. 26. Mar. 14. h. 13 Luc 22. h 19 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. that his Gospel should be preached unto all creatures, without excepting either the lay people or the ignorant, unto whom yet nevertheless the supper is recited all at length? Wherefore hath not he warned his Apostles to keep those words secret? And wherefore have they published and written it all at length in their Gospel books, which aught to be in the hands of all Christians? Is the Canon of the Mass more worthy & more holy than the holy Gospel of jesus Christ? Eusebius. you aught not to jest or mock: For you do not yet know that God doth behold you. What sayest thou of the Canon and Memento of the dead? Art thou so foolish and bold that thou will't find fault with it? Theophilus. First make what it containeth, and after The Memento of the dead. Nemento elian Domine famili orum & familiarumque tuarum N. qui nos processerunt cum signo fidei & dormiunt in sonno pacis † ipsis domine & omnibus in Christo quie seentibtes locum refrigerij lucis & pacis ut indulgeas de precamur. per eundem dominum jesum Christum. Amen. A true history. thou shalt understand what I will say? Eusebius. I am very well content. For I am very sure that you shall find nothing to reprove me. Theophilus. I will recite it unto she word for word, that thou shouldst not think that I have either added or diminished any thing for mine own pleasure: Remember O Lord thy men servants and thy women servants, who have go before us with the sign of faith and do rest in the sleep of peace, We beseech thee O Lord, that it would please thee to grant unto them and unto all those that rest in Christ, place of comfort, light and peace, through our Lord jesus Christ, Amen. First, after that the Priest hath said: Remember O Lord thy men servants, women servants, and handmaids, there is an N●in a red Letter, which signifieth in that behalf that you must expressly name those, for whom the Mass in song, and in whose name the money is paid for, saying it. hilarius. I do know a man that sometime had been a Priest, and now liveth honestly, after the reformation of the Gospel who did confess unto me, that all the while that he was a Priest, that he kept very good countenance in singing Mass, until he came unto that place: But when he was come to the commemoration of those women and handmaidens, they entered so much into his head, that afterwards he could not have his spirit in quiet. Eusebius. Because that he was an whoremonger, he Marriage of priests could not live chastely, but gave himself to be one of your society, for to break his volue and to marry. hilarius. Hath he not done better, than to burn through concupiscence and transgress the commandment of God 1. Cor 7. b. 9 Mat. 15. a. 3. Mat. 14. a. ● The vow of Herode. Whoredom. for to keep his vow, as Herode who caused john Baptist to be beheaded, for to keep his oath? Hath not he done better than those fat whoremongers, who had rather to persever in their whoredom, and to abide still in their filthiness, then to use the holy marriage which God hath given to be 1. Cor. 7. 3. 2 a remedy unto all those that have not the gift of continency: of which they do well know how far they are ●rom it. God knoweth what goodly redemers & advocates the soul's have of them, between God & them. Now much do you think that they have, who do think more upon their handmaids when they say their Memento, then on the souls of Purgatory, for whom they do sing the Mass? And although that their doctrine were true, they make you often Idolaters. For although that they affirm that the body of jesus Christ and God be really in the host, yet nevertheless their book, which they call Rationale divinorum Rationale divi norum officiorum officiorum, witnesseth that if the Priest hath not the intent to consecrated when he pronounceth the sacramental The intent to consecrated. words, he doth not consecrated. And so by that means it is not God, but the bread abideth still bread. And consequently all those which do worship it are Idolaters. For they do worship the bread, and not God. Wherefore I refer it to thy own self to think, when those maidseruauntes do enter into their mind, and such other fantasies, which are as good stuff, what intent they have, when they think thereon, and what God they can forge. Thomas. By that reckoning the Priest which was A true history in the year 1538. of a Priest that was a forcerer and of his. whore burned at roll in the time of Lent. burned of late at roll, which is between Lausanna and Geneva, for that he was a Sorcerer aught to have made the people Idolaters. For he confessed that he was xxiv. years a Sorcerer. And which is more, he had also his whore which was a Sorceress, who was burned aswell as he, who did make her a Sorceress. Forasmuch then as he denied God, Cream and Baptism, as all Sorcerers do confess in their process (if it be so) what faith can he have to the Mass, and what consecration aught he to make? hilarius. The Papists do think that the same is well provided for by the counsel which the book above alleged giveth them. For to avoid such an inconucnience, he counseleth the Christian that he do worship the host with such condition, saying in his heart: Lord god if thou art there, I do worship thee: if thou art not there, I do not worship thee. And that counsel is taken from Tho. in li. 3. sen. dist. 9 10. Ludo. vival. de monte regali. in aur. oope. de. ver. t. con● The building of the faith of transubstantiation Thomas Aquinus, who resolved that question after the sort. For by that condition all adoration, if there be but bread, he avoideth to be an Idolater. But I pray thee consider a little, whether that our faith be well builded, seeing that it is builded upon the intent of a Priest, and how that it can be faith, seeing always that it is in doubt. Eusebius. Thou art a slanderer. For all the Doctors say not so? hilarius. I do well know that they are not all of one agreement and that Nicholas de Plove, saith, that the intent is necessarily requisite, and not the attended, and that it sufficeth Nicolaur de plove intentio non attentio. in tract. sacerd. that the Priest have a general intent to consecrated, although that he be not always attentive, and think not still on that that he saith and doth, wherein nevertheless he sinneth greatly. All do travail as much as they can to find reason out of reason. But it sufficeth me so that the same which I speak be written in the book which giveth the reason of your divine service and ceremonies. Theophilus. Thou hast no good manner, in always interrupting us in our talk. hilarius. What will't thou have me to do? When I remember the great follies that they have spoken & done, I am constrained to make some parenthesis, & some little digression. But leave not off to return unto thy matter & to go forward with it. I believe that thou hast not forgotten it. That followeth afterwards which thou hast said of the menseruaunts & maidseruaunts: which have go before us with the sign of faith, & do rest in the sleep of peace. Theophilus. Thou seest already Eusebius, for The priests do pray but for those which are already in Paradise whom they pray, to wit for those, of whom S. john speaketh off in the apocalypse, which are dead in our Lord, & rest from their labours. For to dye in our Lord, & to go with the sign of faith, to rest from their labours, & to rest in the sleep of peace, is all one. And Clithove himself is constrained In Eluci. 3. can. expo. to expound those words by the same of Saint john. Wherefore thou mayst know, that they do pray but for those which are already in Paradise. For there are none other which do rest in the sleep of peace but those. It followeth then that they do also pray for that virgin. To pray for the Virgin Mary & the Saints Mary and for all the Saints of Paradise. Now let us hear what thing they require for them. We beseech thee that it would please thou to grant unto them and unto all those that rest in Christ, place of comfort, light and peace: If they rest in jesus Christ, are they not already in place of comfort, light and peace? Otherwise I know not what it is to rest in jesus Christ, seeing that it is written. That although that the righteous be overtaken Sapl. 4. 7. with death, yet shall he be in rest. If they be in a fire, as the wicked rich man, of whom thou hast spoken, & that they do burn as they make us believe, what difference is there between them and the dampened? Thou knowest very well that Lazarus who was in Abraham's Luc. 16. 22 bosom, and who rested in the sleep of peace, because that he was departed from this world, with the sign of faith that he had in the promises made unto Abraham, & of the seed of blessedness, was in a place far differing from the other, in which he rested in joy, pleasures and delights. For if after that the faithful be called from this world, he wero kept in the fire, in what rest should he be from his labours? Should he not be in worse estate than he was before? hilarius. After that I have laboured all the day, & have much sweated, it I must go into a furnase when I should go to bed, for to rest myself in the same all night, I would never go to bed. Theophilus. But where should be the promise of jesus Christ who hath said so oftentimes: He that believeth in me hath everlasting life and shall not come The promises of God contrary unto the papistical purgatory. john. 5. 24 into condemnation, but hath passed from death unto life? And that which S. Paul said, now then there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ jesus, which walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Eusebius. That is not repugnant: For those which are in purgatory are already Rom. 8. 1. assured that they shall not be dampened. But they shall have eternal life; after that they have satisfie● for their sins. Theophilus. Sigh that there is such punishment, it must needs be that it hath judgement and condemnation: For God punisheth not without judging: And I know not how we can make the opinion agreed with so many goodly promises which God hath made unto us by his Prophets, and by all the holy Scriptures: nor yet with that which the Priests themselves do sing in the prose of the dead, The prose or prayer of the dead. Dies irae, dies ●lla. which beginneth: Dies irae, dies illa soluet seculum, etc. They do say in a little verse. O king of reverent majesty, which savest all souls freely, From evil Lord deliver me, thou fountain of all clemency. They céerely and plainly confess that we are saved through grace, and do use this adverb, Gratis, which signifieth froely and frankly. Wherein they do very well agree to that which Saint Paul witnesseth, saying: You are justified freely by his grace. That is not then by our Rom. 3. d. 24: Rom. 21. a. 6 Gal. 2. d. 16 Ephe. 2. b. ● works, and satisfactions: For than were grace no more grace. I do much marvel how that good word escaped them. hilarius. I think that the same chanced because of the rhyme, for to make all rhyme in Atis. For in the first verse there is: Rex tremende maiestatis. And for to make all to be in Atis, they have said: Qui saluandos saluas gratis, salva me sons pietatis. Theophilus. Now do those satisfactions agree with that that the Lord promised, saying: if the ungodly will Eze. IS. c. 21 turn away from all his sins that he hath done, they shall not be thought upon any more: Also though our sins shallbe as read as scarlet, purple, or the worm that cometh Esa. 1. e. 18 out of the earth, he will make them as white as will & the snow, and will cast all our sins behind his back, and Esa. 38. 17 will put them as far (as David witnesseth) as the East is from the West, and will cast them in the bottom Psa. 105. 12 Mich. 7. 19 of the sea. Eusebius. Wherefore then reserved he yet pains unto David, after that the fault was pardoned 2. Reg. 12. 15. 16. 1●. & 18 The punishment of David him, insomuch that he was driven from his kingdom by his own son Absalon? Wherefore punished & chastised he him, after that the Prophet Nathan had declared unto him the remission of his sin? Theophilus. For what cause God chastiseth us in this world When God chastised David, & when he chastiseth us every day, because of our sins, he doth it not so much, for the sin which hath been committed, as for to aovertise and admonish us, that we do not sin hereafter. And the pain that we bear is not for to satisfy God. For there is none other Satisfaction sore the sins satisfaction than the death & passion of jesus Christ, that he can allow to be sufficient. For if we must satisfy for ourselves, we must bear & carry all the importable burden of the wrath and judgement of God. Now if we must bear them, there is none of us but should have his shoulders broken, and should be plunged & drowned in the gulf & bottom of hell with the Devils. For if the Angels could 2. Pet. 2. 4 not bear it, which of us shall be sufficient, which are but worms of the earth? And wherefore did God our good father sand us jesus Christ to help us, but to that end that he would bear it & satisfy for us, & that thorough his satisfaction john 3. 16 Rom. 3. 24 we should be reconciled unto God, & delivered from his judgement? Seeing then that God our father hath the satisfaction of jesus Christ his son, which is more than sufficient for us all, he requireth for us none other satisfaction. And if he require good works of us, he requireth What works God requireth of usand 10: what end them not for satisfaction, for they are too insufficient: But for praises and giving of thanks, and witnesses of our faith, & of the remembrance that we have of the benefits that ho hath given unto us in his son jesus Christ, and for to incite our brethren for to praise and magniste him. Therefore said jesus Christ unto his disciples. Let your light so shine before men, that Mat. 5. 16 they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven. He said not to the end that by them, you should satisfy for your sins: or that you should merit the kingdom of heaven, and be iustyfied. For the faithful man hath obtained already all that by the faith of jesus Christ, which is Rom. 3. 22. Gala. 2. 16 1. Cor. 1. 30 our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, thorough whose merit Paradise is given unto us. For that cause the holy Apostle calleth the eternal life, the gift of God. Wherefore we may understand that we merit it not thorough our good deeds, but it is given Rom. 6. 23. Merit & grace us froelye, thorough God's liberality: Even as the Father's inheritance is given unto the son: not for that he hath deserved it, but because that he pleased him so, for that he loved him, and that he is his child, and will give him his goods fróely. Otherwise grace Rom. 6. 6. should be no more grace, but debt. On the contrary, when saint Paul did speako of the eternal death, he Rom. 6. 23. calleth it the wages of sin: declaring thereby that man hath well deserved it, and that he can deserve none other thing, but that that wages is due unto john. 15 him, for a recompense of the service that he hath done unto the Devil, the Prince of this world, even as the wages which is paid unto a soldier, for bearing of weapons under his captain. We 〈◊〉 then see that The works of the Angels and of the elect. the works done by the children of God, and the service that the Angels doo● unto him, do tend all unto one end, to wit, to glorify GOD and to sanctyfie his name. Even as then the Angels serve not GOD for to merit paradise, of which they are already in possession, neither for satisfaction of their sins, of whithe they are not entangled: But only for the love that they have in GOD, and the desire of his glory, so Gods elect do regard none other thing, for they are already washed and purged 1. Cor. 6. 11 Apo. 1. 8. Act. 15. 9 john. 13. 14 from their sins by the bloud● of jesus Christ, and their heart purified by the faith in him, and thorough the word that they have heard of him: And are already possessors of the kingdom of heaven in hope: the which is no less sure and certain, then if the thing were present, and that the Angels are assured of that that they have. Therefore the holy Apostle saith, that we Rom. 8. e. 44. Ephe. 1 ●1. hundred are saved thorough hope, and that jesus Christ doth make us sit in the heavenly places. And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect us in this world, that is, as the Apostle also writeth unto the Corinthians, for to correct and chastise us, that we should not be damned with the world and the Infidels: because that we are yet in the way, and 1. Cor. 11. g. 31 capable of chastisement and ainendement, But there is an other reason after this life here, when we are out of the way; and need, and that we cannot any more empayre nor amend: And therefore the Lord doth chasten us here, as the good Father who beateth not his son for to have The chastisen●t of a father towards his clulde. any recompense thereby for the fault that he hath committed: For the pain of the child bringeth no profit unto the Father. Also he doth not beaten him through rigour nor through malice that he hath to take vengeance of him: For he loveth him as his child, and the fatherly affection maketh him soon forget the faults and injuries that he hath done unto him: As it is clearly showed unto us in the Father of the prodigal child. Luc. 15. ●. 22. Eusebius. What hath the father then to do to chastise him? Theophilus. If he knew that he would never do any more fault he would soon pardon him, without any punishment: But fearing lest thorough his great patience ● gentleness should fall again, he is constrained to beat and chastise him, although that he do, it not willingly, but it to that end to make him more prudent and wise, and to better advise himself in time to come, and that he take diligent heed not to shall again in the fault or in any other greater. The which is no more to be feared in those whom, GOD hath called from this world. Wherefore they cannot any more rectius punishment which should be to c●n●en them as is the same of the father towards his child, for to amend him. But if there he a punishment, The punishment of the malefactors. it is rather, to declare the judgement & the severity of God towards the wicked and reprobates, and to manifest his goodness and mercy towards his elect: As the judge doth condemn the traitor, murderer and other malefactors, that have deserved death, not for to have any recompense, nor those unto whom they have done wrong and injury. For what recompense can they have by their deaths? neither do they it for to 'cause them to walk in time to come more uprightly, sith that they take from them their life: But for to satisfy righteousness, and to maintain it, to that end that other may take example, and that they may know how available it is to have followed virtue and eschewed vice. Eusebius. To what purpose then doth Saint john Apo. 14. c. 13 Obie cten O pera. N. illorum sequuntur illos. What corks follow the dead. in his revelation say: Their works do follow them? what works do follow them, but the good deeds that men do for them after their death? For those that they have done whilst they lived went before, not after. Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them. Theophilus. Saint john speaketh it because that their works do bear witness that they are the children of God. He saith not other men's works, but their own works. For as man liveth of his own soul, and not of the soul of an other man's, even so doth the righteous man of his faith. And as the righteous man liveth of his faith, & not of the faith of an other, even so shall every one be judged according to his works, and not after Abac. 2. a. 4. Rom. 1. b. 17 Rom. 2. a. 6 those that other men shall do. For it is written: Every one shall bear his own burden. And therefore jesus Christ saith: by thy word & thou shalt be justified: and by thy words thou shalt be condemned: That is so say thy Gala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the judgement shall be according to the works words and thy works shall bear witness, of thy heart, and by them thou shalt, be iuslified, that is to say, absolved, declared and pronounced just and righteous: O● by them thou shalt be condemned, known and judged worthy of death and condemnation. Not that God needeth any witness of our works, for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condemnation. For he knoweth the hearts, & needeth none other witness but his own. Psa. 159. a. 2 〈◊〉. 9 〈◊〉. 30 〈◊〉. 4 But the scripture useth such manner of speaking for to apply it to our capacity, for to manifest & declare unto us better the Just judgement of god, which will show forth the h●pecri●e of man heart. For man how wicked soever his heart be, he would always hide it: & if one put it to his own cō●c●éce although that he do condemn it, he will not for y● leave off to advasice & brag he y● le an honest man, until such time as he he také with his wicked deed, as the thief with his stea●ing. For he is so perverse & wicked although that be be taken with the deed, he will excuse himself: And as the shameless whore, is not a shamed to deny the which we see with our eyes, & hanole with our hands: As we have an example in Came. Although Gene. 4. b. 9 that he killed his brother, and that his hands were yet all bloody and wet with the blood that he ●ad shed, it seemeth to hear him speak, that God did unto him great miury and wrong, in ask him where he is. And therefore God would vanquish the malice and perversity of man's heart, and condemn it by the works that are manifest, for to declare unto him, and to make him confess by the fruit, that he is the root a●d the tree, to the end that he may not glorify himself to be the Fig & the O life Mat. 7. c. 16 tree, when one doth emdently show unto him the thorns & thistles that it hath born. And even so every creature is constrained to acknowledge and confess, that the judgement of God is just, and that it consists in all truth and equity. Now the works that men do for us, after that we The works dene for us after our death. be dead, are not ours. Wherefore we cannot say, that they follow us. For it is another matter to be in the way and journey, and to have already ended his journey and to be arrived at the port, whilst that we are in the course of this present life, he taketh us as a sree which yet groweth, the which one may dress and prune, for to To be in the way make him bear fruit. But when he is once cut down, there is no more hope, he lieth where lie falls, he must travail no more afterwards. In like manner may we judge of man. Whilst that he is in the way, & that he is in his course & Luc. 13. b. 6 sight, one may aid him by admonitions, entreatings & other morkes of charity, which we own y● one to that other, whilst that we are herein the work of god, for us to help the one the other to obtain & win the victory. But after that he hath called us from the work in the which he hath set us, we must attend and look no more but for the reward and Crown of righteousness, the which the righteous judge shall give unto us, as Saint Paul hoped for himself, as 2. Timo. 4. b. ● we have fought for him the good fight, and have fulfilled our course and have kept the faith unto the end: On the contrary, we must look for fear, confusion, and eternal death, as the slougthfull servant, unfaithful and ungrations, we have hide away and stolen the Talon away Mat. 25. c. 26 from our Master, without bringing unto him any profit. Mat. 3. b. 8. Therefore Saint john says: Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance: that is to say, thorough which you show forth that truly you repent you of your sins, and that you have amended your evil life. For the are is put unto the root of the tree, so that every tree which bringeth not forth good fuite, is hewn down and cast in to the fire. Upon that ma●ter Saint Augustine did writ Mat. 3. c. 10. unto Macedonius after this manner: There is no other place for to correct and amend manners, then in this life. Augu. Epist. 54 For after this life every one shall have that that he hath gotten here. And in another place he says: In this world the Sermo 66. de tempore mercy of god helpeth those that rep●t: But in the world to come repentance profiteth not, but we must rinder account of our works. Liberty of repentance is only given unto us in this life, after that we be dead there is no more licrce of correction. Now is the time of mercy, after wards shallbe the time of judgement. And in expounding those words of jesus Christ: He In 10. tract. 12. Marc. 16. d. 16 which believeth not is already judged, says after this manner. The iug●ei●ēt appeareth not yet, but the judgement is already done. For the Lord knoweth who are his. He knoweth 2. Tim. 2. d. 1● those which abide looking & farryng for the crown, & those which abide looking for the fire. Moreover Saint john Chusostome speaketh more plainly, confirming that Chrisosleme de L. 12. t. con. 2. which I have said, in such words: Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end, and prepare thyself to the way, and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from any man, restore it again: and make restitution, and say with Luc. 19 b. 8 Zachens: if I have taken from any man by forged cavilation, I restore him four fold. If thou art angry with any man, agreed with him, before that thou do come unto judgement: dispatch here all things, that without let thou mayst see that judictall seat. All the while that we are here in this world we have goodly hopes, but assoon as we shallbe go from thence, it lieth no more in our power to do penance, nor to deface and put out our sins. For after the Hom. 22 and popu. In Mat. 11 Hom. 37. In Heb. c. 1. & 2. Hom. 4. end of our life, there is no more occasion of merits, no more than there is unto those the play at prizes & games, to obtain crowns and rewards after that the combat, play and prizes are finished and ended. For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sins, afterwards he shall find no consolation. For in hell (as it is written) who shall confess thee? That is to say, who shall praise Psa. 6. b. 6 thee in the grave? And by good reason. For this is the time of the Theaters, of Combals, Plays, and Prizes: But the shallbe the time of the Crowns, rewards and salaryes. Also let us not think when we shall be come thither, that we shall have mercy, which do nothing at all, wherefore we aught to have pardon: Not though Abraham, No, job, and Daniel did pray for us. Whilst then we have time, let us prepare for ourselves great trust and assurance towards God. And Saint Jerome says no less, confessing that Jerome. 12. q. 2. Inpresenti. Ambrose. lib. de bon. mor. ca 2. in the other world. And Saint Ambrose, is of the same opinion, saying, David required that his sins might be pardoned him before that he departed out of this life. For he that shall not here in this life receive forgiveness of his sins, shall not have it in the other: he shall not have it because he shall not have the power to come and attain to the eternal life. For the forgiveness of sins, is the eternal life. Therefore says he: pardon me O Lord, that I may be comforted before that I go and shall be no more. And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papistical doctrine, which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures, and to the witness of the ancient Doctors of the Cyprian Church. Saint Cyprian hath written, in the Sermon that he made of the immortality, that the faithful that do dye, have taken white robes and garments, By which he The office sorthe dead Domine jesu Chreste rex glory libera ammas omnium sidelium desire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera, eas de ore leonis, ne ab sore beaten eas tar tarus, ne cadunt in obscuro sed signifer sanctus Michael rpresentet eas in lucem sanctam quam olim Abrahe promisisls & seminie ius Quia in inserno nulla est redemptio. Mantua. 3. calami Sed neque rex Ereli quemque tranare paludi Nee super is iterum reddt sinit The signification of hell. means, that they are come to the beatitude and felicity, and feacheth, that we must weep no more for the dead. Sigh that they are already in the estate of felicity. But me thinks that the Priests do not take them to be assured of the eternal life whom they lodge in their Purgatory, but that from Purgatory, they may yet fall into hell: Or if they understand it not so, wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Mass for the dead? Domine jesu Christi etc. That is to say, O Lord jesus Christ king of glory deliver the souls of all the faithful that die from the pains of hell, and from the deep lake. Deliver them from the Lions mouth, least the in hell he devour them, lest the they fall not in the obscure & dark places, but the S. Michael the standard bearer do represent them into the holy light, which of late thou didst promise' unto Abraham and to his seed. Thomas. Me thinks that this is repugnant unto that which Eusebius hath spoken before, and to that which the Priests do sing, saying: that in hell there is no ransom nor deliverance. And yet nenerthelesse, they pray here in that offertory, unto jesus Christ, that he will deliver them from the pains of hell. It must then needs follow, that either their prayer is vaive, and that they demand a thing of God which they do very well known to be impossible and contrary unto his will, or that there is aswell deliverance in hell as in Purgatory, and that they speak against themselves, or else that hell & Purgatory be all one thing. Eusebius. Thy disiunetive is not good. For not, withstanding the commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampened, yet nevertheless it may be understanded more amply for that low places and cositries, & the estate & condition of the dead: after this manner, his signification shall comprehend & contrine also the Purgatory, as it doth in this place here. hilarius. We must then expound it of the pains of hell, that is to say, of the pains of Purgatory. Eusebius. It cannot be understanded otherwise. Thomas. And what shall we understand by the deep lake? Eusebius. The very same. Thomas, There is then also a lake in Purgatory? hilarius. You do well Thomas to be afraid, Did you never here before, how the priests did pay the seriage for to have the dead pass over? It is then necessary the they have their ferry man Charon, for to let pass & repass the souls, aswell Charon the ferry man. as the paynim & Poets had. Now if there be a Charon & a ferry man, he cannot carry over souls without the there is seas lakes, or rivers, for to caryhis boats, scyfes, ships, barks & galleys. Thomas. But I am greatly abashed wherefore we do call those that die, in the french tongue trespasses. Think that it was because that they were already passed wherefore we do call the dead bodies in french trespailes. from this life in the other. But as far as I can perceive it is rather because that they have passed over those infernal lakes and reverses. hilarius. I do believe that the Christians and true faithful people have called their dead trespasses: signifying by that same that the death of the faithful is no death, but only a passage for to enter into life, & those which are dead john. 5. a. 24 in the faith of jesus Christ, according to his promises, are passed from death to life. And therefore they are rightly called trespasses because the they are already passed over, & are come unto the port of health, in which they rest in joy and consolation with jesus Christ their Lord, having escaped all the dangers, & the great gculfes of the sea of this world, The Pope Pinto, Aeacus, Minos, Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus. of sin, death & hell. But sithence the the pope hath begun to reign in steed of jesus Christ, & the he hath take the office of Pluto the god of hell, & of Aeacus, Minos, Rhadamantus, and Neoptolemus the infernal judges, as a new king, he would change the laws, estates, habitations & manners of huing of his subjects the be dead, aswell as of those that be alive, The decrees & Canous of Lesus Christ. & endeavoureth himself with all his power & strength to abolish & put out the laws, ordinances, institutions, holy Canons & inviolated decrees, which jesus Christ hath given aswell to the living as to the dead by his prophets & apostles, passed, confirmed, ratified & sealed by the arrest of the celestial & heavenly court & by the great counsel & wisdom of god, of the holy trinity of the father, the son & the holy ghost, of all the angels & archangel's, Saints & Saints, patriarchs, apostles, Evangelists, Martyrs, Confessors & Mirgins, to the end that the faithful without any other, should have place in heaven, in earth & in hell. Theophilus. He would The Emperors & Pope do abolish the statutes of their predecessors. do unto jesus Christ, as the Roman Emperors, & the Popes have done many times the one against the other, making frustrate, & voyd the which their predecessors have made & ordained. For in as much as they have made jesus Christ the first pope, & S. Peter the second, I think, the it seemeth good unto them, the aswell they may abrogate & make boide their ordinances, as they have done those of other Popes their predecessors, changing most ofcen times the that the first have ordained, & making frustrate their counsels & decrees, especially sithence the time of pope Stephen, who made boide all the which Formosus his predecessor had done. jesus Christ the eternal Plipe, Plat. in vita Stepha. 6. & Formosus. 1. Stephan. 6. For mosus 1. Antibopes & schismatics But they do in that great wrong unto jesus Christ that sithence he is risen again there are so many pope's risen up in his place. For they will not suffer that one should choose another whilst they are alive: or if that be done, they call him antipope the is choose in spite of their beard, and hold for scisinaticks aswell him as those that have choose him & which are joined with him. They call him antipope who setteth himself against him when they esteem to be the Christ & Antichrist. Rom. 6. a. 4 1. Cor. 15. b. 12 Ephe. 1. d. 28 & 2. b. 6 Coloss. t. c. 18. Mat. 28. d. 20 true pope, eve as we set antichrist against Christ. Sith them the jesus Christ is rise from death he is immortal, & shall dye no more, but shall abiee & dwell eternally with his church, of which he is the only head, according to the promise' that he hath made to his disciples, saying: beld I am with you until the end of the world: For as much also as that great heavenly father, of whom proceedeth all fatherly love that is called Ephe. 3. c. 15 Daniel. 7. 1 22 the old aged, of whom Daniel speaketh off, he hath given unto him all judgement, power & signory both in heaven & in earth, & hath made him to be called by his prophet, the father of the world to come, Prince of peace, willing that in the name of jesus should every knee how, both of Esa. 9 b 6 Phll. 2. b. 10 Apo. ●. d. 13 things in heaven & things in earth and things under the earth, I am greatly abashed from whence this over boldness & rashness should proceed to created & those other pope's then he, sith that he is always alive, & that he is the Lord of the quick and of the dead, and his kingdom hath nene end. hilarius. They cannot deny but that they are all Antipopes. That is to say contrary and enemies to the true Hope, & so consequently heretics and schismatics. For sith that jesus Christ is the true Christ, & true Pope, that is All Pope's Antipopes & Anticurists to say, the father of the Christian Church, it followeth that they are Antichrists & Antipapes of the church of jesus Christ, & true & lawful Popes of that of Antichrist. the which hath not only of trepasse but also passed, repassed & trepassed, which never shall find rest. For they must first pass into Purgatory, & after repass, for to put them out, & again to pass all over for to put them in the Pope's The Papistical dirges paradise. But as slowly as they can, when they can get no more money. Wherefore it must needs be that there are lakes & rivers, at the lest, insomuch as the Poet's do declare The lakes and internal finds. it, sith that we must so much pass and repass. Thomas. But how can the fire & water agree together if Fire. & water. there are so many rivers & deep waters, it seemeth to me that it is great folly, to cast the holy water upon the graves, & upon the dead, sith that they have such slore below with them. If Holy water unprofitable. I were below in Durgatory within that fire. which is so hot & burning, I would find the means, if it were possible, to get me near unto those rivers, & would plunge myself therein, as a Duck and a Coote. hilarius. I would not that the Priests should sing & pray for me, that I might be delivered from the deep lake, for I had rather to be a fish, and to devil therein always. Thomas. Thou 'cause be no better at thy ease. For thou shalt be always in the fresh water, and mayst drink when thou will't. hilarius. That should be a goodly pastime for the drunckardes, if those slouds were of wine, & for those that devil upon the mountains, if it were of milk, as in the time of Saturn, and in the time of the golden Age, if the Floods of wine & of milk. ovid. Meta. 1 Flumina jam lactis, jam flumina nectaris ibant. The infernal floods their names & interpretations. Lethe, Acheron, Styx, Cocytus, Phlogeton. witness of the Poets be true. But I rather fear that those are not always that, as the Poets have said, and that one cannot always attribute unto them their ancient names: Although that the Pope reigneth there in steed of Pluto. For the one is called, Lethe, that is to say, oblivion: An other Acheron, that is to say, without joy: An other Styx, that is to say, sadness: An other Cocytus, that is to say, mourning and lamentation: An other Phlegeton, that is to say, heat. Now what other thing can there be in the Pope's Purgatory, if it be such as they have described unto us. I find it in nothing to differ from the Poetical hells. Wherefore they do no great wrong, if they do sing: Deliver them from the deep lake, and from the lions mouth. sith that that roaring Lion is there, it must of force be that it is hell. But they fail in this that they have not directed their prayer unto the Pope, and his, which have cast the souls therein and hold them there, and not unto jesus Christ, who handleth not so cruelly those of his faithful servants. But truly those which will not drink of the fountain of life of our Saviour Ies●s, and of his goodly Psa. 12. a. 3 & 55. ●. 1. jere. 2. c. 13. sweet rivers, which are more sweeter than either wine or milk, are well worthy to drink of those boil and stinking papistical cisterns, and to be plunged and drowned in those pits and infernal lakes, and to live in the iron Age. Eusebius. Thou blamest the Sophisters, but I never The significatios the deep lake. saw a greater Sophister nor greater slanderer. When the Priests do pray that jesus Christ would deliver the souls from the deep lake, is it not easy to be understanded, that they speak not of a lake full of water, but that word is taken by translation and comparison, for to declare and show forth the depth of the miseries in which sin leadeth the poor sinners? Theophilus. But hath not jesus Christ thorough the blood of his testament, delivered all the true Christians from those broken pits that will hold The lake without water. Zach. 9 c. 11 no water, even as he hath brought the children of Israel from the bottom of their captivity and misery, according to the prophesy of Zachary? dost thou think that Zachary hath lied? hilarius. Thou dost call me sophister and slanderer, but if thou find that that I do say so strange, I would gladly know of thee out of what flood came the soul, which the fishermen of the Bishop Tibaud did take in a net in steed of a fish? Thomas. Truly I now perceive A soul taken in a net that thou dost mock men too plainly. hilarius. If I mock, thou must then impute the fault to that great Doctor Barleta, of the order of the preaching Friars, who hath written that goodly example, in his Sermon Barleta feri. 4 hebd. 4. quadr. de pe. purge. that he made of the pains of purgatory, and said moreover that the fisher men did bring that net unto the Bishop, unto whom the soul cried: Pray for me in thy masses, to whom the Bishop demanded, what art thou? The Bishop Tibaud. the soul answered: I am a soul that have accomplished here my penance. And as soon as he had caused a trental of Masses to be song for it, it was delivered from her pains. Now what dost thou think, how was that soul brought thither? I can conjecture none otherwise but that it did swim bpon the top of the water, as the trouts, Salmons and Eels, & many other fish do, which go against the sweet water, and do departed from the sea and lakes, for to enter into the rivers. For I doubt not, but that there is stinking mud, mire and dirt in those papistical lakes, and that the water is very much corrupted, salt and bitter, The papistical lakes and ●ondes. The sluds of Paradise Esa. 11. a. 3 Gene●. 2. b. 10 wherefore I am not much estonished, if that the souls have such great desire to departed out of those stinking cisterns, for to refresh themselves and to draw of the water, in the sountaines of our saviour jesus Christ, and in those pleasant rivers and floods of that delicious and pleasant garden, wherein the golden age continueth for ever, and of that goodly paradise, the which God hath planted, The tree of life and in the midst of which he hath set the tree of life, for to make us partakers of his immortality. And as for me, whatsoever Sophister thou call me, yet I could not give better solution to my question: nor I know not whether in Sorbonne, one might find a more fit. But least thou shouldst not think that I do speak without authority, I will allege unto thee the witness Cic●ro. Tusc. q. li. 1 of the Poets, and the same of Cicero, who allegeth that he favoureth greatly the history of Barleta, and the exposition that I have made upon the same. Mark then the A soul drawn from hell. horrible and sharp verses, that those souls which departed from hell did speak, as some man hath translated it into our tongue. From the infernal lake I came, and grisly gulf of hell, Where souls in fire & brimstone plunged, in endless troments devil. Thus having passed Acheron that foul and stinking 'slud, And eke escaped Gerberus the dog that is so wood, Upon the sharp rocks creep I must, and do by penance so, (Till time I have sulfilde the same) in pangs of pain and woe. Thou dost hear the language that the same soul did speak, although that Cicero did mock of those fictions and of such a heap of fools, who demanded a form & shape of the souls, and did think that they did return. Upon which he says: From thence by his account the lake of Avernus Aueruus is not far off, from whence some do say that the souls do come in a black shadow, after that the gate of Acheron is opened: and that from thence came forth the Images and figures of the dead men, with false blood. notwithstanding the same they would that those Images and visions should speak: the which they cannot do, without a tongue, mouth and throat, or without strength & figure of liver & ribs. And although they see nothing by apprehension of understanding they would that those figures of the dead, should be represented before their eyes. Although y● Cicero rebuked the opinion of those, yet nevertheless they do not accord very evil with the theology of your Doctors. Wherefore thou oughtest to content thyself with my solution: or if thou will't have a better, propound the question in Sorbonne, and if the Doctors cannot absolve it, let them condemn the books of Barleta, and of other like dreamers, The forbidding of books. & forbidden the Moonkes to read their Sermons full of blasphemy, rather than the holy Scriptures, and the books that they judge to be full of heresies, only because that they do contain truth, and which condemn their abuse. Theophilus. They will not do so. For the other do cause The floods of paradise. Pyson. Genes. 2. b 10 the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson, the one of the four floods of the terrestrial Paradise, bringeth gold with his waves: But those will have nothing to do with the floods of Paradise, nor of the gold that they bring, which is a great deal more precious than Floods bringeth gold. that which they draw from their internal floods, the which they prefer before those, because of the great riches and treasures that they draw there out. hilarius. There is no Prince upon the earth, which getteth or draweth so much out of the floods nor mines, as Tagus. Pactolus. Ganges. Hebrus. Padus & Eridanus Orcus. they have. That is none of the gold which Tagus the flood of Portugal bringeth with his sands: Or Pactolus of Lydia: Or Ganges of India: Or Hebrus of Thracia: Or Padus of Italy: Or Orcus, which is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont. All the gold that those floods have is nothing in comparison of that that they catch in their internal floods: which cause the wheels of their Mill to turn about very well. In very deed they have an Orcus which is more fertile in gold then that of Piedmont. And the name Eurotos & Peneus. 4. ca 8 Plin. li. 4 ca 8 P●neus accipii amnem Euroton nec recipit, sed olei mod● super natatem brevi spaicio portatum agreeth with it very well. For Orcus signifieth hell, from whence those floods arise, which cannot join themselves with those floods of the terrestrial Paradise, no more than Eurotos with Peneus, that goodly flood of Thessaly, which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stinking flood, engendered with pains and torments, should be mingled with his silver floods: But they must swim above him, as Oil, and after the he hath carried him a little, he driveth him far from him. Theophilus. Those here would as well mingle the waters abdicat penales aquas, dirisque genitas argenteis suis miscere recusans. of their stinking cisterns, with the water of life: But it agreeth not together. For jesus Christ cannot abide nor suffer that, but casts it far from him. Wherefore I doubt very much, that as he hath already kindled his fire, which hath burned Purgatory, that he will also repulse those rivers and lakes, and that he will 'cause them that they shall The flood of Christ not swell over as a flood doth his waters, for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left. hilarius. they aught a great deal more to fear that flood, than the drowning and overflowing of Tiber, which The overflowing of Tiber. was like to have drowned Rome. For when it runneth over, it will carry away both the castle of Saint Ange, the Pope and his Popedom and all the Romish Babylon. Wherefore it is no marvel though they fear those evangelical The flood Nilus and the fertility of Egypt Strab. Geor li. ulti. Solin. ca 45. Seneca li. 4. natu. quae. Luc. Phar. 10 Plin. in panegy ad Traia. Plin. natu. hist li. 5. ca 9 Nilometres. Diodo. sicu. li. 1 Tibul. li. 1. ad Nilum. Te propter nul los tellus tua postulat imbres Arida nec plwio supplicat herba lovi. Claudia. in con su. Theo. Lene sluit. Nilus, sed cunctis amnsbus extat utilior. waters, and endeavour themselves to keep their filthy internal puddles, and infectious and stinking wells. For that is all the force and riches of their kingdom. The flood Nilus which overfloweth the land of Egypt, & which maketh their fields fruitful and fat, and bringeth unto them great abundance and increase of wheat and other corn by the mud, filth, fat ground, dung and fatness that it bringeth with it, is not so fertile nor profitable unto the Egyptians, which inhabit in the land of Egypt, as unto us new Egyptians. Wherefore if the Egyptians take such pain about their flood Nilus, and have their Nilometres, that is to say, the mesurers of the flood Nilus, which have the charge to measure it, for to know whether it increase much or little, we must not be estonished, if those here do so travail after there's. Thomas. Wherefore do they that? hilarius. Because that if that Nilus do not increase but twelve cubytes, than they have the famine in Egypt: because that if all their grounds are not watered and moisted through the overflowing of the same, those which are not covered are as the sand, and will bring forth no fruit. For it raineth not in Summer, and all their felicity and riches, dependeth upon Nilus. As Moses declared Deutat. bae unto the Israelites, comparing Egypt unto the land of Canaan. If the flood Nilus arise up xiif. cubits, yet there shall be tamishment in Egypt. If it increase xiiif. cubits, it bringeth joy: if xv. it bringeth assuredness: if it increase xuf. cubits, it bringeth delights and pleasures. For they have such store and abundance of corue and other goods, that all is plentiful. On the contrary, if it Palaemon ex Diony. Non alius tantum fluutorum ditat arenas. Atque trahens limum complec titur ubere campos. increase above measure, they cannot sow, because that the water tarrieth so long that the earth will not be dry to be tilled: But when it increaseth by measure, they make great cheer, taking care for nothing, and therefore they have those Nilometres which measure the height and depth of those waters, and if they know that it ariseth not high enough, for to water all the earth, they make it to be known through out all the Towns and Cities, afterwards every one maketh dykes and The flood Nilus of the Pope. trenches for to make it the easier to run all abroad. If they know to the contrary, that it will swell and rise up to high, and that through his great abundance of his waters it will let and hinder to sow and till the earth, they make great rampers and walls round about it for to keep it in, and to 'cause it to run more slowly. Now therefore doubt not, but that our Egyptians are as wise in their generations, and that they know as well that practice, for to provide and foresee to their Niles and flouddes, which cause the water to come to their miles, from which all their fertilities and riches do proceed, and with which they fish and catch the gold, of which yet nevertheless they can never be satisfied. For Charybdis. they are as a gulf of the sea, in which these rivers do empty themselves, & yet they can never fill the sea. These The dykes of the fortresses of the Papists. are the dikes of their castles & Lordships wherein doth consist all their fortress, of which none can approach nigh unto them, without being fore afraid & in great danger of kill & drowning. For those the will approach as enemies, for to assault them, shall find those floods altogether ●ull of sulfur & fire, & more whotter & burning then the internal flood Phlegeton. Those which do pass over them, for to yield themselves unto them, shall find themselves more miserable & unhappy. For first of all they must pass the flood Lethe, which signifieth To pass the flood Lethe. To forget God. oblivion: because that it is necessary, that those which give themselves unto them for to drinike of the stinking water of their doctrine & traditions, forget God & his word, & Esa 29. d. 13. Mat. 15. a. 8 serve him in vain. Wherefore from thece they must come unto Acheron, which causeth all those that pass over it to loose all their joy and mirth. For sith that the kingdom of God is A cl. cron righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Ghost, what peace The kingdom of God. Rom. 14 c. 17. & joy can those have who have forgotten and forsaken God, the fountain of the water of life, & the sea of all goodness, for to come & drink of those muddy and stinking jere. 2. c. 13. wells that will hold no water? Sigh that then in that Acheron, one shall loose all joy & mirth, they must of necessity come unto the other flouddes, to wit, Styx, which signifteth Styx Cocytus Phlegeton Ihon. 14. d. 16 The holy ghost is called the comforter. Claudiut. Foelix qui phaitas prescindit vomere terras. Nubila non spe rat tenebris condentia coelum Nec graviter slantes pluuiali frigore Coros. invocat, aut arcum varlota luce rubentem Aegyptus sive aube ferax inbresque serenos. Sola tenet so cu ra poli, non indiga venti. sorrowfulness, & to Cocytus which signifieth mourning: and unto Phlegeton which signifieth heat and burning. For sith that the holy Ghost is called the comforter: joy nor consolation cannot be but there where he is, and where he hath shed abroad the waters and drops of his grace. And therefore who can have his conscience which is deprived from that comforter. but sorrowful & full of perpetual mourning? What greater heat & burning can there be in hell, then is in the consciences of those which have abandoned Christ, for to serve Antichrist, & for to follow his doctrine & traditions? For that is a very hell unto the conscience: and it is not possible that those which are addicted and given unto his service, can ever be refeshed & filled. For that Egypt is not watered nor sprinkled with the dews & floods of heaven, no more than the other Egypt with the water from heaven in summer: & hath nothing in it but these filthiness & puddels, the which it doth esteem more than the goodly fair & clear water: it prefereth itself unto the land of Canaan, the which yet nevertheless Moses esteemed more than that of Egypt: saying unto the Israelites: The land whether thou goest to possess it, is not as the Gaudet aquis quas ipsae vehit Niloque redundat. land of Egypt whence thou camest out, where thou sowedst thy seed: And wateredst it with thy feet as a garden of herbs: But the land whether you go over to possess, it is a land of hyls and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven. They had rather with great travail torment themselves after and about those marysses and low grounds, then to attend and receive the blessing from heaven. And therefore they can never find rest nor consolation in their consciences, but abide always in doubt, perplexity, trouble and anguish. Theophilus. That is the very same that they desire. For Antechriste hath his fishers, altogether differing and contrary unto those of jesus Christ, who desire not but troubled waters, because that then their fishing is a great deal Deu. 11. b. 10 To fish in the troubled water The fishers of jesus Christ & of Antichrist. Mat. 4. d. 19 Luc. 5. c. 10. better. jesus Christ said unto his Apostles, and Disciples: I will make you fishers of men: Because that he would send them, for to draw men, by the nets and cords of the preaching of the Gospel, out and from the sea of this world, and from the goulfes of sin, death and hell, for to lead them unto the port of health & safety, and unto jesus Christ their Saviour. The other fisher men take fish for to kill and eat them. But these are sent for to retire & pluck back men from death unto life, and from the perils and dangers of the sea and goulfes of hell, for to lead, present and bring them all alive unto jesus Christ. On the contrary, Antichrist Fishers of gold and silver. Sub anulo pisca torto. hath his Apostles and fishers, not of men, but of gold and of silver: or if they do catch men, that is after the manner and sort as the fishers catch the fish for to kill, eat & cell them. hilarius. If they be not fishers of men, they are fishers of souls. Wherefore I would counsel them, sith Fishers of souls. that they know to take them in their nets as fish, that in sléede of their masses, vigilles and suffrages, they would buy fish lepes, nets and hooks for to catch and fish for souls. Theophilus. They have no need of thy counsel. For they have been provided of such instruments long agone, that if it be possible there shall not one soul escape, but that it shallbe entrapped and caught in their nets, which they have laid forth on every side. What other thing are all The nets of the Priests. their prayers for the dead, their Idols and ceremonies, but bitings, Hooks, Nets and engines, for to catch and take men, as the Fisshers take the fishes? or the Spiders the little Flies with their copwebbes? hilarius. Therefore it is very necessary for them to have a great many of Nilomitres & servants, for to take good heed to their rivers, sith the there are so many Fishers, & which have so many nets & engines. For it is to be feared greatly, the if their Nile and their bloody waters of Egypt should overflow, arise The waters of Egypt. and swell to much, that it would quench and put out the fire, that they keep yet in their Purgatory, aswell as the over great fire that they made there, hath burned the walls and chambers that were there, and lest the same should hinder and let their sowing and reaping in harvest. On the contrary, if those floods decrease and dry up, it is greatly to be feared, but that they will bring dearth and famine, for many causes and reasons. For merchants nor merchandise cannot come no more unto them. Afterwards it is to be feared, lest the Israelites whom they To go out of Egypt Exo. 14. c. 21 The taking of Babylon. Cirus & Darius hold in captivity in Egypt, shall escape them, if God drieth up the read Sea, for to give issue and passage unto his people: or lest their Babylon should be taken, as Cirus and Darius took the of the Chaldeans, after that they had found the means to turn the river Euphrates, which entered into Euphrates. Pli. li. 3 ca 14. Solin. ca 50. Xenoph. in Cir. hist. li. 1. in cho the same, for to give free passage unto their soldiers & host of men: the which they placed within Babylon, there where the course of the water was, and did take it in the night, whilst that the king Balthazer with his Princes, courtesans and concubines did banquet & make good cheer, Daniel. 5. s. 23 and celebrated the feast of his gods. Theophilus. They may well repair their dykes, and joseph. lib. 10 ca 13 forteane themselves as much as they can: But yet nevertheless they shall take them never the sooner. For it is necessary that the prophecy which Esay prophesied against the Egyptians be accomplished upon them, and upon all The Prophecy against the Egyptians. their Fishers, and upon those which live about their rivers, and which make the instruments of Idolatry & superstition. hilarius. What is that Prophecy? Theophilus. Give ear, and you shall see whether it agreeth not well to our matter. The water of the Sea (saith he) shall be drawn out, Nilus shall sink away, and be drunken up. The rivers also shall be drawn out, and the wells shall decrease Esa. 19 2. 5. and dry away. Reed and Rush shall fail, the grass by the water's side or upon the rivers bank, yea, The fisshers forsaken. and whatsoever is sown by the waters, shall be withered, destroyed and brought to naught. The fisshers shall mourn, all such as cast angels in the water shall complain and they that spread their nets in the water shallbe faint hearted. Such as labour upon Flare and Silk, shall come to poverty, and they also that weave fine works. And all those which do make ponds and stews for the living souls shall be sorrowful for their nets. hilarius. It is not possible, to find out a prophecy which better agreeth with them. For this here maketh mention of waters, of Fisshers of Flare workers, of makers of nets, of makers of ponds and stews, in which they do keep and hold fast the living souls, as the fisshers do keep their fish in their stews and fish pents. It maketh also mention of their instruments & of the workmen that make them, the they fear nothing less lest that the preaching of the Gospel should dry up those rivers, as Demetrius & those of his sect greatly feared, the thorough Demetrius. Act. 19 s. 14 Diana the goddess of the Ephesians. the preaching of Paul, the honour of Diana the great goddess of the Ephesians should be diminished, & their gain with her. Therefore they are not to be blamed although they look to it so diligently. It in more than time that the virtue of God doth show forth itself, for to deliver his poor people, from the hands of so many fishers which plunge & drown so many poor souls through their lakes & puddles. Those are terimen & marrincrs which do drown all those Dangerous Martyrs which enter into their boats & ships. For they have not jesus Christ with them, which causeth the winds & tempests Mat. 8. c. 2 ● Mar. 14. d. 32 john. 3. b. 19 to be calm & to cease, & which causeth always a safe landing and port. Theophilus. And therefore it should be more reasonable that we should cry after him as the Apostles Prayer for the living. did, saying: Lord save us: & that we should make our prayer unto God, that he would deliver us from that deep take, & all those that be alive, then to sing for the dead. For if David & the other servants of God did complain themselves to have been drowned in the lakes of tribulation and misery, The water of tribulation. Psa 2●. c. 21 Psa●. 6. e. 23 Esa. 8. h 8 Sennacharib. & that the waters have environed & covered them over the head, we have no less occasion to complain. Esay desiring to signify the misery & tribulation which should come unto Jerusalem and to all the land of juda by the army of Sennacherib, saith that she shall be environed with waters up to the throat: And useth such comparison for to let them to understand that the same army shall destroy and cover all the land, even as Euphrates did cover and destroy Euphrates. Strab. li. 16 Proc. li. 1. Pers. bell. Esa. 36. cap. 4. Reg. 18. and 19 cap. that land of Assyria, when it overflowed: making comparison by the soldiers & host unto the river, because that both the one and the other do pass through one land. But Jerusalem was never so afflicted nor oppressed by the violent waves of the army of the Assyrians, as the poor Church is trodden down and oppressed by that great Romish Sennacherib and his army, which is innumerable The Romish Sennacherib. throughout all the whole world, as the sand of the sea. But we have spoken enough of the Lake: It rests now to absolve the doubt which I have already begun. Forasmuch (friend Eusebius) as you say, that that hell and deep lake, of which mention is made of it in the affertory for the dead, is taken for purgatory, what doth y● signify which is spoken off afterwards: Deliver them from the lions mouth, lest that hell do not devour them: I believe the they understand by the Lion none other but the devil, who as S. Peter The devouring Lyon. 1. Pet. 5. b. e witnesseth is our enemy, & walketh about seeking whom he may devour. But sith the the soul is separated from the body, how can it be delivered from the mouth of the roaring & denouring lion, if the soul be of a reprobate, which dieth out of y● says of Christ, who shall deliver it from his throat, when God hath given it him? And if it be of a faithful man, jesus Christ who is the strong and invincible Lion, of the tribe of juda The Lion of the tribe of juda, Apoc. 5. b. 5 who hath had the victory over that Lion which is adversary and enemy unto God, hath he not already delivered it? hath not he killed and prohibited the mouth of that Samson and David. judg. 14. a. 5. 1. Sam. 17 c. 35 hungry Lion, as a true Samson and David, in such sort that he hath no more teeth nor fangs, for to devour the childen of God whom the Lord jesus holdeth, as the Lion his prey, to whom none dareth to come nigh, as Esay Esa. 31. b. 4 hath written, that the Lord keepeth Jerusalem and his elect people. Also I think it not much unmeet if we make such prayer for those that be a live, the which jesus Christ hath taught us to pray and say: And lead us not into temptation, Mat. 6. b. 13 Luc. 11. a. 2 but deliver us from evil. And he himself hath made the prayer unto God his Father, for his disciples, as john. 17 b. 9 witnesseth Saint john. He says not, I pray thee that thou wouldst deliver them from evil after this life: nor says, I pray not, that thou wouldst take them out of the world? 1. Pet. 5. b. 8 but that thou wouldst keep them from all evil. Also S. Peter doth not exhort us to abstain from meats, to be sober, watch and pray, and to arm us with faith against that roaring Lion, for those that be dead, but for ourselves repugnance of doctrine whilst that we be a live, to the end we may avoid his mouth, for to come unto that holy light which he hath promised unto Abraham and unto his seed. For according to your doctrine, sith that the soul is separated from the body, if man hath not had here remission of his sins before his death, he cannot have it after. And if he have it in this life, he goeth either into Paradise or into Purgatory. If he be in Paradise, it is no more to be feared that hell can swallow him up. If he be in Purgatory, although that according to your opinion, he be in pains, yet nevertheless you confess that he is past the danger of damnation, and that he is sure of his salvation. Wherefore I understand not, how that prayer can agree with the word of God, and the doctrine of the ancient doctors, & your own For you speak against yourself. If that prayer doth profit The Papistical doctrine is uncertain. the souls of the dead in the other life, it must then be, that there is yet great hope, either to merit or not to merit, and a place to do good or evil, as in this mortal life, and to be damned or saved. Eusebius. There is great difference. For in this life man may merit or not merit of himself: But after he is dead he can do no more for himself, but others may do it for him? And the merits of those that be alive do serve him to salvation. Theophilus. And so by that means, jesus christ shallbe a Saviour neither of the living nor of the dead: & the merit of his death and passion, shall save neither the one nor the other, but the living shall save themselves, during their life? and after their death, others that shallbe then alive, shall save them especially the Priests and Monks, By that means, we have many saviours, and men should never be certain nor sure of their salvation, neither before their death nor afterwards, which is a thing altogether contrary to the doctrine of the scriptures. Eusebius. And if I would maintain, that those which are in hell, can be somewhat delivered from the pains thereof, either by the prayers and good deeds of the living, or Deleyveraunce from hell because of the good deeds that they themselves have done during their life, that should be a strange thing unto thee. What wouldst thou answer to that? Have we not the witness of a great many histories and good doctors, worthy to be believed, which certify us, how that Saint Gregory delivered Traianus the Emperor from the pains Traianus delivered from hell of hell, who notwithstanding did put to death many of the Christians, and namely Saint Ignacius the disciple of S. john Saint Ignatius lo. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. quae. Saint Machayr Saint Brandun. Alrus. in fine sui 4. judas out of hell. the Evangelist. It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers, that Saint Machaire delivered a priest being a Panim, who affirmed unto him that he was damned. And in the life of saint Brandon we read that he did see judas, which walked by the meadows, of whom he asked the cause, wherefore he was not in hell: who answered him because of the good deeds that he did in his life time, he had therefore some solace and comfort. Theophilus If Thou canst no better confirm my sentence, nor better prove that your doctrine is altogether uncertain, variable, inconstant and gamesayinge itself. For haste thou not already confessed unto me, that the priests do not pray for the dampened, because that there is no deliverance from hell, and from the fire of hell? Consider I pray thee, how that agreeth with those goodly fables, & with that which thou meanest now to speak off. divers opinions of the deliverance of Traianus Tho. in 4. dist. 1. 3. Argu. 2 10. Maio. 4. sent dist. 45. qua. 1. Barl. ser. 3. Hab. 4. sermo de pen. inser. Eusebius. If you had read diligently the books of the good ancient doctors, and especially of Saint Thomas, you might easily make all these places agree. For they do allege four opinions & reasons for to satisfy such doubts. The first is, that Traianus was raised thorough the prayers of Saint Gregory, and that he doth done penance in this life, thorough the which he meryted grace and pardon of his sins. Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God, and hath been saved, and this is the best allowed opinion of the doctors. The second is, that the soul of Traianus was not simply delivered from the pain and fault thereof, but that his pain was suspended and delayed, until the day of judgement, and afterwards shallbe saved. The third opinion is that Gregory delivered him, not from the place of hell, but from the pain. The fourth, which is also best allowed among all the other, that the soul of Traianus was delivered from the pains of hell, and hath obtained mercy thorough the prayers of Saint Gregory: the which thing was done, not after the common law, but after the disposition and dispensation of the wisdom and providence of God, who did foresee that Saint Gregory should pray for him. Wherefore it hath not dampened it by or through definitive sentence, but by a sentence suspencive: The which thing hath been a particular privilege. For Saint Jerome says, that the privileges are but for a Privileges. few people, and not for all. For the privileges of a few are not laws common to all: And the things which go out of square from the common law, aught not to be drawn into a consequence. hilarius. I think that that is the privilege which Extra derog. sur. li. 6 is written in the Aeneados of Virgil, the which Cybele recited, speaking to Aeneas after this manner. Then prophet Cybele said, O born of blood of heavenly kind, Thou Trojan Duke, the way that leads to hell is light to find. Virg. Aenci. 6. Both nights and days, the door of Limbo black doth open gape, But backward up to climb, and free to Skies est 'zounds to scape. Their works, their labour is few men whom equal love did love, Our virtue piercing all, did to the stars advance above. Behold the privilege of that good doctor, which peradventure jupiter, in whom Traianus did believe, granted unto him. Theophilus. I do greatly marvel, both of Thomas of Aquin, and of other questionary doctors, which have taken such great pains for to colour and set forth a fable. It must be that they have had very much leisure, and that they were not much occupied about other better affairs. They would sooner have given a more true and certain solution, if they had by and by answered, that they received not such fables: as some of their own sect have done, namely our master john Maioris the Scotte, the which I have heretofore herded read in the College of Our master john Maioris 4. sent. dist. 45 q. 1. Mountaigu. He rejecteth without making any doubt, both the history of Saint Machaire, and also that of S. Brandon. As touching that same of Traian's, although that he allege the common solutions of other doctors: yet nevertheless he first doth answer, that he knoweth not from whence that history had his first beginning: the which hath no certain author: not withstanding that some do attribute it unto john Damascenus. But how should he have The Author of the history of Traianus Damascenus. Suppling. chro. Bergons'. li. 9 written it, sith that according to their own witnesses and chronicles, he reigned long time before that saint Gregory lived, and was dead before that Saint Gregory was born. For their chronicles do witness, that Damascenus flourished in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familiar with the Emperor Theodosius. The which yet nevertheless I believe not: For by that account, he had lived in the time of Saint Ambrose, & nevertheless there is great difference between his books and these of Saint Ambrose. For these of Saint Ambrose are a great deal ●latin in vit. Celest 1 The time of Gregory. Bergo. li. 10 purer, & keep a great deal better the purity of that ancient church. But peradventure they mean the young Theodoseus, which rained after Honorius. Although that it be so, by their own Chronicles, he was before the time of Gregory, about 152. years. For they do writ that Gregory reigned in the year. 592. hilarius. It must needs be then, that either the Chronicles are false, or the witness of those the do make Damascenus the author of that fable: Except peradventure they will say that thorough the spirit of prophecy, he hath foreshowed that deliverance, which Gregory aught to do, touching the soul of Traianus. Theophilus. I know not what their prophecies are, but I never in all my life did see nor hear a thing wherein was less reason, assurance & incerteinly, then in that papistical doctrine. For it consists but in mane opinions. But how do those fables agree with that that they themselves Maio. 4. sent. dist. 45. q. 1. Berl. sermo. de pen. inse allege of Saint Augustine, who by their own witnesses should say: If I did know that my Father were in hell, I would pray no more for him then for the devil. Wherefore then have S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampened? And when the Priests do pray unto Ne absorbeat. eas Tartarus: ne cadant in obsura. jesus Christ that he deliver the souls, lest that hell should devour them and that they should not fall into the dark and obscure places, in what place do they understand that the souls, for whom they make that request, aught The place of the Papistical souls. The fall of the souls. to be? Sigh that they make request that hell do not devour them, they do then understand and mean, that they are not in hell. But when they admoreover, that they fall not into the dark and tenebrous places, they declare thereby, that they aught to be in a place, from which they may not fall. Now, what is that place? Is it Paradise? Eusebius. Not Paradise. verily. For those that are there, are already all assured, that they shall never fall. Theophilus. Not, except you are of that opinion that the souls may yet sin in Paradise, as the Angels and Adam, in the terrestrial Paradise, The fall of Angels & of man. Genes. 3. d. 24. 2. Pet. 2. a. 4. and that God did throw them headlong into hell, as the wicked Angels: or that he did drive them out of Paradise, as Adam. But I believe thou art not of that opinion, friend Eusebius, for thou shouldst speak against all the good ancient Doctors, and the doctrine of the catholic Church, who do prefer the work of man's redemption, to the same of his creation, in that that man hath been so created of God, that he could sin: But he hath after such sort redeemed it, that his elect can never perish nor sin after they be in Paradise. Eusebius. It is very true. Theophilus. In what place then are those souls? Thou wilt not say that they are The Limb. in the Limb? For according to your own doctrine that same of the fathers is empty, and as touching the other there goeth none thither but the little children that be born dead, for whom you do no more pray, then for the dampened? For you hope no more that they can come out from thence, 〈◊〉 more than though dampened can come from hell. Wherefore there rests no more but Purgatory. Now Purgatory if those souls are in purgatory, it must be that they have some solace, and some light, as in Paradise: or otherwise, wherefore do they pray, that those souls do not fall into the obscure and dark places, if they be there already? We will yet come again unto my first matter: and thou shalt be compelled to confess that Paradise and Purgatory is all one thing: Or that you do pray for the Saints and Saints of Paradise, and for those which are at rest: or at the leastwise, that the souls which are already tormented in Purgatory, may yet fall more deeper into hell & the dark places. And so by that reason, they are yet in danger of damnation, which is contrary to your own doctrine. hilarius. I am greatly estonished, friend Theophilus, what reason you can find out of all reason: and what certainty you search, besides the word of God, which is only certain? What foundation shall you find in dreams? For all that that they say and do touching the dead, and all their doctrine, what other thing is it but dreams and lyings? which have neither spirit nor judgement. Is not that a Theology altogether come of the paynim? for of all those things have they learned any one syllable of jesus Christ? Wherefore, I would, sith that they will not follow but their own fantasy, the opinions of men, and of the Idolaters, and that they have no regard of the holy Scriptures, that they would not at the leastwise only follow the evil, but also the Three kinds of righteousness after Plato. good, that they have taught. Plato that great and worthy Philosopher, hath set forth three kinds of righteousness: The one towards God: an other towards men, and the third towards the dead. But these here do neither regard God nor men the be alive, but have converted all their care upon the dead: not for the love of them, but for the love of themselves. Wherefore you must not think, that they have done this, for any zeal of righteousness for to tender unto them their duty. Theophilus. I desire gladly, that they and all the Christians, would acquit them in such sort that one may say that which the Scripture witnesseth of Ruth Ruth and Booz Ruth. 2. d. 20 and of Booz, and to give unto them such praise. For it witnesseth, that they have showed mercy on the dead. Works of mercy towards the dead. But how? was it in bestowing their goods to bury them pompeously and making a great many of Ceremonies about their burial? They have not learned to do so by August. de civi dei li. 1. ca 12. 13. que. 2. c ani ma. 4. sent. dist. 45 c. de pompit. The profit of the burial. the word of God. For as Saint Augustine saith, also it is written in the decrees themselves, and in the Master of the sentences. That all these things, to wit, the travail and labour that they bestow upon the funerals, the beautifying of their burial, the pomp of the exequics and burials, are more to comfort those that be alive, then for to aid the dead. If the precious and costly burial profiteth Virgil. Facilis iactura sepulera. any thing the wicked, the vile and contemptible burial shall hurt the good, or if he do remain unburied. That rich man of whom jesus Christ speaketh off, had Comparison of the rich and of Lazarus. Luc. 16. c. 19 a great number of servants, and courtesans clothed in purple, and sumptuous apparel, who made for him most excellent funerals, and buried him very costly to all men's sight: But the Ministering of the Angels made a great Luca. li. 9 phras. aternus animam colligit in orbs. Non illue auro positi nec thure sepults perveniunt. deal more noble before the face of the Lord that of the poor beggar, whom they carried not to be buried: But carried it into Abraham's bosom. Behold the words of S. Augustine, who declareth unto us that we must not despise the dead bodies, and deny unto them their burial, for to testify and witness the hope that we have of the resurrection, and that we should esteem them no less than a ring or a badge which they have left unto us, the which we would gladly hide and keep for the love of them. Also we aught not to think, that the faithful can be in nothing of less strength, and to receive any hurt before God, when they abide unburied, as it oftentimes chawsed, as it is written: The dead bodies of thy servants Psa. 79. a. 2 Luca. li. 6 phars. Nihil agis hac troth, tales ne cadavera saluat. An rogus haud resert. Placido natura receptat. Cuncta suni & post capit omnia tellus. 〈◊〉 Quae genuit coelo igitur qui non habet vinan have they given unto the souls of the Air to be devoured: and the flesh of thy Saints unto the beasts of the land. Their blood have they shed like water on every side of Jerusalem, and there was no man to bury them. But yet nevertheless although that those things seem to be hard & cruel yet notwithstanding before the face of the Lord, the death of his Saints are precious The paynim themselves that have had any understanding were not much careful of the burial: although that many superstitious Idolaters have thought that it bringeth great hurt, unto those that have not been buried. Now even as the cost which is done about the dead bodies for their buryalles profiteth less unto them, then to any other: As much may we think & judge of all the suffrages and cost that is done for them after their death and burial, as Saint Augustine doth plainly declare, upon this place of the Plalmes. They call their lands after their own August in psal 94. cone. 1. The benquettee for the dead. names. What is that? They bring (says he,) breads and wine unto the graves and call it there the name of the dead. How much or how often dost thou think, that the name of that rich man hath been called upon afterwards, when men were drunken in remembering him, and one drop of cold water did not descend to quench his hot tongue? Men do serve their belly, and not the souls of their parents and friends. There cometh nothing unto the souls of their dead, but that which they have done with them being alive. But if being To do good during our life. alive, they have done nothing with them, there cometh nothing unto the dead. What reproach had the men which understood not what they should do with their riches, when they lived, and which did think that they should be blessed, if they had a memorial in a Tomb of marble stone, as an eternal house: or if their parents & friends, unto whom they shall leave their goods, do call their lands after their names: But on the contrary, they aught to prepare for themselves an everlasting house, in good works. They aught to prepare for themselves the immortal life, Preparation for the departure out of this life. to sand the cost & charges before them, to follow their works to have good regard of their needy companion, to give unto him with whom they do walk, not to despise jesus Christ, to wit, his poor members, lying full of botches & sores before the gate, who hath said: Inasmuch as you have done Mat. 25. d. 40. it unto one of the lest of these my brethren, you have done it to me. Doth not here Saint Augustine clearly say, that man must do his good deeds & almose, not unto the sat Monks & Priests, but to the poor members of jesus, whilst the he is here in the way? For after the he shallbe out of this world, the good déds & almose the their parents & friends do bestow of their riches, profiteth them nothing at all. Whereto also Jerome in Esa of Forgiveness in this world agreeth the which S. Jerome speaketh off, saying: he which shall not obtain pardon of his sins, whilst the he liveth in this body, & shall so departed this life, he perisheth to god & leaveth to be: Although the be do make himself subject to pains. By those drunken banquets of which Saint Augustine speaketh off, we may sufficiently understand what was the custom of the paynim, which for an affection that they did bear unto their parents & friends, & for a desire that they had, and also for a pomp and glory, have dedicated some Days dedicated to the dead. Neeysia. Lunata. Euagismata. Ceterismata. Terchismata. Triacas. Parentationes. Novendialia Demealia. Ratio divi off. de off. pro mort Rub. 7. of them, the third, the seventh, ninth or tenth day, others the thirty or forty day, for to make remembrance for the dead, and to offer for them and make feasts and banquets. And have not ordained those days without putting superstition to the number of them. And yet nevertheless, we do see that the Christians altogether and wholly have followed that manner of doing, as it appeareth both by their practice, and also by the book of Durand: Although that Saint Ambrose & others after him have made Sermons & decrees, against that custom, the which notwithstanding could not be so clean taken away and abolished, but that that superstiton continueth almost every where. For men do The seventh days and the year minds. celebrated the seventh day, tenth day, anwersaries or year minds with great banquets and pleasures, as it appeareth by the canons and decrees, in which it is written after this sort. No Priest shall in any wise presume to be drunken Dist. 44. ex concilio Naventensi. Nullus. A lesson for the Priests. Quaffing for bidden. when he cometh to the year mind, or to the trentenarie, or to the seventh day, or ternary of any office for the dead, or to any contrair or brotherhood: And that he drink nor quaff when he shall he desired for the love and in the name of the Saints, or for the love of the soul of him that is dead, nor that he do not also compel others to drinike: and that he do not play the Gluttony. glutton and fill himself to much with good cheer at the request of an other: And that he presume not to rehearse and recite jests and unlawful scoffinges, plays and vain fables: nor by any means to sing: And Masks and Morrishes. that he suffer not that one should make before him vile games and toys, and that he consent not that one should bring before him false visages and masks of Dyvelles. For that is dyabolicall, and forbidden of the holy Canons. We may well understand by that decree of the counsel, what honesty the Priests and Christians have kept in such banquets, sith that they must make laws by the counsels, and wherein they differed from the paynim. Wherefore if the good ancient fathers have made any memory of the dead, it was after that sort and manner, as we have already spoken off, and for to abolish by that means the superstitious fashions of the paynim, and to change them to better manners, sith that they cannot pluck them away altogether. For if such religion was pleasing unto God, it was marvel, that God did not as well ordain, God hath not instituted feasts nor sacrifices for the dead. certain feasts, sacrifices and ceremonies, for the dead, as he hath done in all other things, and many, which seem not to be so necessary, as those here do esteem the offering for the dead, whom they do grieve more, than any commandment that God hath ever given. If that were comprised in the love that we own unto our neighbour, how could the spirit of God hold his peace, jesus Christ and saint Paul his Apostle, who have so much strove against it, and commanded love towards our neighbour, and have not once spoken any word to make prayers, almost nor sacrifices for the dead? If that same had been necessary, and according to the will of God, why would they have more hidden it from us then any other thing? how can that which jesus Christ and also his Apostles have said be true, that they have declared and manifested unto us all the will of God? Do we not then unto them great injury, to make that a commandment of love and charity of which they have never spoken off? But I am not abashed sith that almost in all other things the Priests do follow the paynim, and the jews the Mosoycall Ceremonies, abolished by jesus Christ, how they have not followed them in this matter, and that they do not abstain to come near the dead, and to assist them at their buryalles, as the ancient Priests of the law, unto whom GOD hath forbidden it. For if they would be Jews, and follow them in older thinaes, they ought also to follow them in this, or to yield a reason, wherefore they follow them in one thing, and not in an other. Wherein the Priests do follow the jews & paynim hilarius. they had rather to follow the gentiles and paynim in this behalf: For their Ceremonies and superstytions do bring unto them more profit, the which they follow, notwithstanding they are nothing worth, as I have already said. Wherefore I think that they would have made to others, a law gathered out of all that which was evil and wicked. Theophilus. It is then easily to be understanded by all those things that the praise that Neomi did Ruth. 1. b. 8 Ruth. 2. d. 20 give unto Ruth, saying: The Lord deal as kindlye with you, as you have dealt with the dead: And unto Booz in like manner, praising him for that he hath kept for the dead that same grace and liberality, as he did unto the living, regarding not the Masses, prayers, songs and sacrifices which they have done for them: But the love and charity that they have showed towards the parents and friends of the dead that be living. Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we aught to have of the dead, and what good deeds God requireth of us for them. The prayers, offerings and good deeds, that What good deeds God requireth for the dead. Ruth, that good widow, did make for her husband that was dead: was, that she kept company, faith and loyalty with Noemi her Mother in law, her husbands mother. A poor widow both of husband and children as she herself Ruth & Noemi was, she comforted her in her afflictions and adversities: And nourished, cherished & loved her, & was attendant upon her in her old age, as though she had been her own The good deeds done unto the dead by Booz. mother. In like manner the grace and love that Booz hath also kept & done unto the sons of Noemi as well to those that were dead as to those the be living, that is, that even as during their life, he hath exercised love and charity towards them in cherising and comforting them, the like affection hath he kept towards them after they were dead. And when he could no more aid and secure them, and that they had no more need of him, he hath declared his love that he did bear unto them, towards the widows, mothers and wives, of whom he hath had pity and compassion, & hath hulpen them both in body & goods, procuring with all his power the honour and profit both of the one Ruth. 4. c. 10 & of the other, until he did take to wise that poor widow Ruth the Moabite, which was the grandmother of David, Mat. 1. 3. 3 and her remembrance is celebrated with the same of Booz her husband, in the gonealogy of jesus Christ. Wherefore we may know, how much the work both of the one & of the other hath pleased God, & what remembrance we aught to have of the dead. Thomas. I do find that to be the best way, to bestow and give the almose unto the poor widows and fatherless children (for that is the true Religion) then for to take their goods and bestow them upon the dead, or to waste and consume them upon bawds and harlots, and upon their children in like manner. hilarius. I warrant you they will not follow any good example, nor the certain commandment of God, but what do they follow in this matter? When I have well read over and over again all the holy Scripture, I do not find one word. And the most ancientest that I can find which did first bring in those manner of doings among the The Authors & institutors of the funerals Pluto. Diedo Aeneal Virg. Aene. 5 ovid. Fast. 2. 5 Romulus. Plutar. in Romulo. paynim, was Pluto: of whom we will speak off hereafter, whom the Docts and the paynim have made the God of the souls: and the king of the dead, and of hell. After him came Aeneas, who did bring that custom into Italy. After Aeneas, Romulus and Numa the Kings of the Romans: afterwards our Popes, who have continued, augmented and confirmed still more and more those errors and abuses. Although that the Panyms had yet a certain better opinion in the same, than our superstitious Papystes had. For they did not make the sacrifices for the dead, for the estimation that they had, that that should serve them for to deliver them from pains, but for to appease them, to the end that their spirits should not hurt them and do them evil, if they had displeased them when they were alive. For Plato himself who hath been the one of the chiefest forgers & Plato de repub li. 12. After death the parents and friends can do vothuig. inventors of Purgatory, witnesseth plainly, that the parents & friends cannot profit the dead. And therefore (says he) the parents, friends and kinsslolkes aught to admomshe their friends that they do live well and honestly, and to do presently unto them that good. For there (to wit) after this life, they cannot give it them. And before the judgement seat there shall not be any great company of parents & friends which shall maintain and defend and entreat the judge, and which can obtain of him, that he will pardon thee. Theophilus. I would to God that all our divines bade no more evil and wicked opinions then that panim, touching the doings of the dead, and that they had said no sentence less to be credited then this. Thomas. If the paynim did not mean that their sacrifices & commemoration should profit the dead, wherefore did they it then. hilarius. It might be that they did think, that there might retourr● unto them some little profit: But yet nevertheless their chief intent and purpose was to appease the souls of the dead and to reconcile them unto them by that means, to the end they should not hurt them, either in their bodies or goods: even as they have accustomed to celebrated scasts and to do sacrifices unto the souls of holy men, whom they did think to be in heaven with the gods, for to have aid and solace, as Aeneas did unto his Father divers sacrili●ces for the dead, for divers causes Anchises. And all that error proceeded, from the false opinion that they had of the souls, and for want of knowing their nature and estate, therefore they judged after their own sense and understanding, and not after the word of God. As they do also of the bodies, thinking (at the lest the most superstitious, as it hath been already touched) that the soul doth walk a certain time, if their bodies hath not bad the honour of the burial, such as apertameth & was Virg. Aene. 5 meet for them: And that the bodies were in danger of Enchantors and sorcerers, which would abuse them thorough their Nycromancic & conjuration. And the Hebrew The opinion of the Rabius and Doctors of ●ae lews touching the body The devil A●izel. Ge●. of. 3. d 14 Esa. ●5. d. 24 rabbins, and doctors of the jews, and in no less dreaming. For they say, that the dead body is left in the power of the devil, who calleth himself Zazell, and do wrist and turn those places of the scripture, for to confirm their error, unto whom it is said unto the Serpent: Thou shalt eat of the earth all the days of thy life. And in another place. The earth shallbe the Serpents meat. They would conclude by those words, that the body of man, and all that which is in the flesh, and the vices therein, is given for meat to the Serpent, whom they do call Azazell, lord of the flesh and the blood, and Prince of that world, saying that he is also called in Leviticus the Prince of the deserts. Sigh then that our body is created and made of the slime Genes. 2. a. and dust of the earth, and that the earth is given for meat unto the serpent, they conclude thereby, that our bodies are subject unto him, and in his power, until such time as they be sanctified, and that the earthly flesh be transformed and changed into a spiritual nature. And therefore say The foundation of the prayers for the dead they that that body hath need both in his burial, & whilst that he is in this earth, to be purified & sanctified through prayers sacrifices, encensements, exorcisms, conjurations, and other ceremonies fit for the same. Theophilus. Durand in that book, wherein he yieldeth Daran Radivi. off. li. 7. Rub. de off. promort. Reisersperg. Sermo dominic 23. post trinit. & 24. & feri. 7.. sest prasent. B. Mar. & done 1. ●duent. & fierce. 4 fest. S. Andr The use of holy water at the burials the reason of all the popish ceremonies, speaking of the office and burying of the dead, allegeth the same reasons, and almost nothing differeth from the jews and Cabalists. Wherein we may well know that the superstitious christians follow more the jewish and Cabalistical doctrine, than the Christian and Apostolical doctrine. For Durand himself is compelled to confess, that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water, not to that end that they are purged and delivered from their sins, which could not then by such things, be defaced & put out: But to the end that the wicked spirits, and their presence should be driven away. And therefore says he that in some places, they do put of the the holy water into the tomb or grave, with the fire and incense, and that the holy water is put there, to the e●de that the devil should not come near, for he doth fear it very much. hilarius. It hath been well declared and proved by Friar Gyles that holy Cordelier, unto whom the devil appeared A fable of a Cordelier, li. co●form●. so terrible, that he could not speak for fear. And as the devil came upon him and grieved him much, Friar Giles could not arise, but did creep as well as he could unto a vessel wherein was holy water, wherewith he sprinkled himself: and was incontinently delivered from that fear that the devil did unto him. Theophilus. Behold a good proof: the holy water hath then more virtue and power then jesus Christ, and the faith in him: or else that Friar Gyles had no faith, which is The faith. Ephe. 6. c. 16 the buckler and shield, wherewith the Apostle teacheth us to resist the devil. I do much marvel where God hath commanded to drive away the devil by water, and when To drive away the devil, by water the true servants of God have used such weapon's aginste the devil. hilarius. At the leastwise they must provide for him a boat if they would drive him away by water, Theophilus. When the witness of the scripture faileth it must needs be, that those masters of ceremonies have then recourse unto fables. But for to return again unto the reasons of Durand, he addeth moreover, that in what soever place the christians shallbe buried out of the churchyard, they aught to set always a cross at his head. For the devil doth fear very much that sign, & dareth not to The s●me of the Cross. come nigh the place, where he seethe the cross. hilarius. That is because that the earth which is out of the church yard, is not conjured. Whereby it hath not so much virtue. And therefore in recompense, they do ad the cross, for to drive away the devil. Theophilus. For the same cause do they also conjure the earth of the churchyard. For as they The hattayle of the D●●ll against the dead bodies. do witness & affirm, the devils have used to get them unto the dead bodies, and to exercise their cruelty and vengeance against them, and enforce themselves to do unto them, at the lest wise after that they are dead that which they could not do whilst they were alive. Furthermore, they Reisersperg. Sermi de mor. ●●t dominie. piniqua. Mat. 22. h. 21. say that at the day of judgement, our Lord jesus Christ will say unto them that present themselves unto him, that which be answered unto the disciples of the Herodians, and Pharisees when they asked of him the question of the tribute, and that they had showed unto him the money and Image of Cesar. Even so will he say unto those: whose is this Image? what money is this? Then those which shallbe marked with the cross, shallbe known to be good christian money: And jesus Christ will say: that which is Caesar's, that is to say, unto the devil, give it him & that which is unto God, give it to God. hilarius. I am abashed if the devil dares carry away those which have made upon them the sign of the material cross, especially the priests and monks, which are all hid and covered with them? Are not these goodly reasons, and most worthy of such divines? Eusebius. Yea, those are Godly reasons, what will you say to the contrary? do you think that so many wise men which have been in the church have not well considered the causes, wherefore they aught to do that? And that it hath not been ordained without good & just reason? Theophilus Thou hast herded them, and thou hast also the jews, Cabalists and Panyms, for to be the first authors of them. But those dreams are yet more tolerable, and worhty of pardon then those here, because that having the brain full of false opinions, and enchantments, they fear lest the enchauntors, Magicians, and especially the conjurers, and the devil with them, should abuse their bodies, thorough their enchantments necromances & witchcraft. But what excuse or colour can the christians have, who aught to be assured of their salvation in jesus Christ, as well for the body as for the soul, using such ceremonies, which I may truly call charms inchauntements, & magical superstitions and purifications, and not evangelical. For although that the earth hath been given for meat to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth, how will God permit and suffer, that that old serpent, shall defile 1. Cor. 6. 1. 19 those bodies which have been the Temple & habitation of his holy ghost? And which have been consecrated unto him, thorough the blood of his son jesus Christ, and sanctified thorough his spirit? have the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed, after the manner as the enchanters & charmers do their exorcisms & conjurations and a corruptible and a material cross, more virtue than the consecration of our bodies and souls, which jesus Consecration of jesus Christ. Christ the great and sovereign bishop and eternal Priest, hath done by his blood and the lively water of his holy spirit, and the baptism that we have received in his name? And if we as good christians have born the cross with him, that is to say, the troubles and adversities of this world, in all patience, and have put all our hope and trust in the merit of his death & passion, rejoicing ourselves only in his cross, as the holy apostle says we aught not to doubt but that that faith, hath imprinted such a cross and such a sign and mark in our hearts and bodies, the the devil dareth not to approach nor come nigh them. And if that same is not sufficient, there is none other after To hear the cross of Christ. Mat. 16. d. 24. Luc. 14. ●. 27 our death, which can serve us. Furthermore sith that God hath given unto us his Angels, for to serve, keep & defend us, let us not fear, that as they have ca●ted the soul of Lazarus, into Abraham's bosom, and have kept and defended the body of Moses from the power of the devil, and Gal. ●. d. 14 did strive and fight for it against them, but that they willbe Stigmatos. The angels the ministers of the faithful. Psa. 91. c. 11 Lue. 16. e. 22. Heb. 1. d. 14. Epist jude. b. 9 The body and burial of Moses Deut. 34. b. 6 also assisting unto all true faithful people, for to keep their bodies & souls, according to the charge and commission that they have of God and that God himself would bury them rather, as he hath buried Moses, then to suffer that Satan should have domination or rule over them. Wherefore I do greatly fear, that the bodies and relics which the idolatrous christians do worship, and honour under the name and title of the saints, & saints, are not The holy body and relics. the true bodies and relics of the Saints and true servants of God, but rather those of some malefactory or wicked man and abominable before God. For it ever any bodies were left under the power of the old Serpent, and of the Devil, those be they, of whom men have made Idols, & which have been set up for relics for to be adored & worshipped, & which have been the occasion among the Christian people of the greatest Idolatry the ever was in the world. Wherefore it is most likest to be true, that the devil maketh himself to be worshipped and honoured by the bodies in which he dwelled, and of which he was served during their life, then in those which have been the Temple of the living God, and which have served to his honour and glory, forsaking altogether the devil and his service. The jews and Cabalysts have esteemed those purifications and ceremonies about the dead, of which we have spoken, to be necessary to their bodies because that the Magicians and conjurers have used to steal them conjurers away, or to take certain members from them for to serve for their witchcrafts & to make them instruments of the devil: as it appeareth by the witness of many ancient writings and histories. Lucanus Phars'. li. 6. Erichtho the Sorcerer The custom of Theslaly. Apul. in asini. aur. li. 2. hilarius. Lucan declareth it very plainly, describing the Witchcrafts and Sorceryes of Erichtho. For that same cause the custom was in Thessalia the which hath always had the name to be full of Enchanters, Witches and Conjurers, that when any man was dead, a certain sergeant or common Herald cried with a loud voice in the open street, that if there were any man which would keep a dead body let him come forth and bargain and agree for the price? Thomas. Wherefore did they so? have the dead bodies in Thessaly used to run away? or whether they were more dangerous then in other countries. Mortui non mordent. Percius. in pertam rig. does calces eaten dit. hilarius. Thou mayst well know, that the dead bodies can no more bite any man, and that they are in an evil case, for to run away sith the they must be carried to be buried, their feet stretched out right before. But I think that thou hast not forgotten that which we have spoken of the Panyms, how that they do not bury their dead by and by, and the causes wherefore And therefore the Thessalians, used to keep their dead all the night, until the day that they burned their bodies, and buried Apul. in Asini. li. 2. Sagae mulieres, ora mortuorum passim demorsicant: ea quae sunt illis artis Magicae supplementa Imo vero etiam muscas indunt. their ashes, because they had that opinion, that the sorcerers did come in the night and did bite their faces, and dismember them, for to serve them for their enchauntements and witchcrafts: and for to do the same, they transform and change themselves into the form and likeness of what beast they list: sometime into the likeness of birds, some time like dogs, or mice: yea into the likeness of very flies: and afterwards do fly and come into the houses and enter so subtly and secretly that none can perceive it. And when they are entered within, they thorough their enchauntements do make those that keep them fall into a sleep, afterwards they do unto the dead bodies what it pleaseth them. For that cause the parents and friends of the dead, did hire keepers, for a piece of money, for to watch all the night by the dead body, without sleeping any thing at all, not so much as to wink, or to turn their face here and there, but to have their eyes always fixed upon the dead body. After that they have found out keepers, which will take upon them that charge, they deliver the body unto them in charge, having witnesses how they have delivered it all whole and sound afterwards they shut them into a chamber, with the dead body, and a lamp full of Oil, for to give them light until the morning, and water within vessels. And if he that Quicquid inde decaptum dimi nutumque juerit id omne de fancy sua desectum, sarcire compellitur. keepeth it do not take good heed of the body the next day whatsoever is wanting or diminished of the dead body that he hath evil and negligently kept, he is bound to restore and recompense it of his own proper face. Thomas. These people were very fools to believe such follies. Who hath written the same. hilarius. A good doctor called Apuleus, which says that he hath done that office himself. Thomas. Truly thou hast very well found it. Peradventure he hath seen the same, whilst that he was changed into an Ass. To wate●h the dead. hilarius. I do confess, that the same is a great dreaming: But do not the christians almost the like? do not they also watch the dead bodies with a candle and holy water? Are they afraid that they would run away, or lest the Cats or Mice should come and gnaw the feet and the face of the dead? or whether they are afraid of witches and conjurers? or that the devil should carry them away, as one hath written of some, whose bodies are not yet town? if God hath given power unto the devils over the dead bodies: the water, candles, fire nor incense, shall not make them afraid, nor yet the witchecraftes and conjurations, except they will say, that they do use charm against charm, and that there's is more stronger than those of the enchauntors. Theophilus. It is not now need, that they take such pains, for to drive away the devils or the socerers from them. For their was never forcerer, conjuror nor enchauntor, that abused more vile and shamefully the bodies of men, nor to the greater dishonour of God and hurt of all the Christianity, than the Priests and Monks, who in stead of the conjuring, that is to say, divination by the dead that the Panyms and Infidels have exercised and used, they have set up & erected a necrolatrie, that is to say, an Conjuring. adoration and worshipping of the dead, and the most greatest Idolatry that ever was upon the earth: And have made the bodies of men to serve the devil, & have made him to be worshipped, under the name and title of them, even as Saul worshipped him under the name of Samuel, by the Necrolatrie means of his old witch. Is not that a great blasphemy and sacrilege, to offer & consecrated unto the devil the bodies of men, whom jesus Christ hath dedicated and consecrated Saul. 1. Reg. 18. a. 7. A witch to God thorough his blood, for to be the Temple of the holy Ghost, not for to be Idols, that men should worship them, in stead of God? we may very well say, that these bodies of which Satan is served under the title The bodies of dead men in the steed of the Idols of the paynim of the relyckes of saints, after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idols of the paynim, have not been well conjured by the charms, witching, cross, candles, incense and holy water for to drive the Devil from them: or else the all those things were nothing worth sith that Satan hath had such power upon them, that he hath letted them to return unto the place which God hath assigned them, to wit, into the earth out of which Genes. 3 d, 19 Epist. jude. b. 9 they came, and that he hath done that that he pretended to do about the body of Moses, the which he desired to set up for an Idol among the people of Israel, knowing that Exo. 20. a, 4 Deut. 5, a. 6 God hath forbidden Images and Idols. And there is no doubt, but that he had brought it to pass, if God by the ministering of his Angels, had not letted him, and showed The burial of the Saints his virtue and power, not thorough material crosses, holy water, candles and torches, incense and lyghts, and other like superstitions, the which Moses had not at his burial nor all the patriarchs, Pruphetes, and Apostles, nor yet of Prayers, Suffrages, nor Sacrifices, after their death, and yet they were nevertheless delivered from the power of the serpent. hilarius. You forget the principal, you speak not of the habit of Saint Frances which hath yet more virtue The virtue of S, France's habit than all that which you have declared and spoken off, if we will believe and give any credit unto the Cordeliers and nuns. For it doth not only drive away the devils which are about the body, but also it quencheth the fire of Purgatory, and mitigateth the pains, especially if that he which hath clad himself with it do dye upon Saint France's day. But which is more, it delivereth The feast of Saint Frances. from eternal death, as the Cordeliers do witness of the king of Castilia, which was delivered, because that being The king of Castilia Most horrible blasphemy. The felicity of the lice & their boldness ready to dye he did put on him that holy garment, & died in the same: and aswell of other Kings & Queens, of whom mention is made of them in the book of the conformities. Whrfore I esteem the louse the most happiest creatures of all others, according to the Theology of the Cordeliers. For there dieth a great number of them within that holy habit. Wherefore Friar jews did no wrong, in calling them the pearls of the poor. But I do much marvel of one thing, that the Lice are more bolder than the Devils, sith that the Devils do so much fear that holy habit that they dare not approach and come nigh, and the Lice lodge there at their ease. I should well believe that if the Devils were as fearful as the young children, that they should be greatly afraid of that habit and mask at the beginning, when they did see men so wildly disguised. And I think, that if Ortis the kings Ortis a Moor Moor, had been the first that had died in that habit, that they would have had great fear. For he was as black as a Devil, & disguised as a Cordelier, wherefore they would have found the same very strange. Thomas. But I am wonderfully abashed, wherefore they put rather a cross in the hands of those which die in the habit of Saint Frances, then in the hands of poor simple people, who are buried only in a sheet. hilarius I can give unto thee none other reason, but that I think that the same is done by the permission and providence of God, which will that men should do unto them honour, as they customally do unto the evil and wicked men, when they are executed thorough justice, unto which in many places and countries, they make him to bear a cross in his hands, chiefly the Sorcerers and Heretics. Wherefore men do not very great wrong unto those Idolaters which do put their affiance and What doth the cross signify which is beciven the hands of those which do dye in the habit of Saint Frances trust in an old rotten garment, to compare them unto the Sorcerers and Heretics, rather than to the poor simple people, sith that they have declared themselves more Infidels than the other, and that they have less faith and hope in the merit of the death and passion of jesus Christ. Eusebius. Wherefore dost thou speak so outrageously, sith that the most honest and wise men and which are most esteemed in this world, have desired to dye in that habit? Theophilus. So much the more ought we to fear most, seeing that the efficacy and strength of Satan The efficacy of Satan. hath been so great, that the most wisest men of the world, and those which are accounted for good and virtuous men, have been deceived thorough such opinions, and are fallen into such blasphemies, the which yet those wicked Moonkes are not ashamed to uphold and maintain. For what blasphemy was ever greater The blasphemy of the cordelier upon the earth, as to to attribute unto such a Mask, the health and salvation of souls, and to make an Idol and new Christ, not only of Saint Frances, but also of his hood and habit? Whereas in deed I do not think, that he was ever disguised in such sort, and that he hath been the author of those blasphemies, of which under his name and title all the world hath been filled and poisoned, thorough the means and practice of those false brethren the Cordeliers, which have been the Trumpet and Bagpipe of sathan The bagpipe of Satan. throughout all Christendom, together with their other companions. But to what end doth that habit profit the dead? It may serve for those that be living for a gown, hose, bonnet and hood, for to cover and keep them from the cold. hilarius. You do yet forget the chiefest. For it serveth also unto the Moonkes, for to show that they The utllive of the habit are effeminated, and worthy to be taken for women, although that by their works, they sufficiently declare themselves not to be women, and that men do not call them father, without good cause. Yet nevertheless me thinks they are repugnant to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to put on woman's raiment, nor the The disguising of men like women. Deut 22. a. 5 woman that which pertaineth unto the man. And yet nevertheless, he which shall consider and mark well their apparel, they are lyker woman's apparel then men's, aswell those which they commonly wear, as the vestments which they do use in their Masses. Theophilus. I grant unto thee all that: but to what end serveth it to the dead? First of all what profit can it bring unto the soul? For it cannot touch it, clothe, nor cover it, nor yet descend into Purgatory with it. The body also goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell, but is buried in the earth, until the day of the resurrection. For then the habit shall be clean rotten, and I do not believe that it shall arise with the body, and that those which are dead in the same, shall arise again clothed in a Cordelier. For it shall not be then time to make masks and dance the morish. There is neither the habit of Frances, Dominicke, nor of any monk whatsoever he be, nor any thing that man can muent and dream, which can serve us any thing before the face of that great judge The judgement of God. The leans of the Fig tree of Adam. Genes. 3. ●. 7 of the quick & of the dead, no more than the Fig leans served Adam for to cover him before him, but that he will see all our filthiness and abominations, if they he not covered and hide with the righteousness and innocency of jesus Christ. Wherefore if we will appear clothed and not naked before his majesty, it must be that he himself do cut out and make the apparel and habit, wherewith we must be clothed, as he did make unto Adam Adam's apparel and and Eue. And therefore we must follow the counsel of the Apostle, who exhorteth us to put off the old man, and to put on, not the habit of Frances or Dominicke, but our Lur Lord jesus Christ. For that is an habit which The habit of Christ & of the religious Christians Ephe. 4. ●. 22 Collo, 3, b. 10. serveth both to the body and to the soul, and which delivereth from the judgement of god. That is the holy water, the lights, bells, sencing and candles, which delivereth our bodies & souls from the power of the serpent, whose head he hath broken. That is the water of life, Genes. 3. c 15 john. 4. b. 14 which raiseth us unto eternal life: which washeth and maketh clean our consciences. That is the true fire of purgatory, and furnayce in which the old Adam is melted and made new, and the new man purged from all his filthiness and simes. Wherefore I do give counsel unto you all, that you take good heed that such treasure be not stolen from you, and that you trust not to the good deeds which those that be alive shall do for you after that you are dead: But that you do put your trust in jesus Christ, and declare and show forth the virtue and efficacy of your faith, thorough charity and good works, which do serve to the glory of God, to the edifying of his Church, and the utility of our neighbour, and that you follow the example of the true servants of God, and the doctrine which the holy Ghost by them hath given unto us, not the Gentiles and paynim, and the false pyophets & seducers, which have altogether turned upside down the Christian Religion, and have converted it, not only into jewishness, but also into panimrie, witchcraft, & sorcertee. Eusebius. You have spoken as it pleaseth you: but I must needs auniswere you. For if you dispute & pled all alone, you may easily win the victory. hilarius. We desire none other thing then to hear thy reasons but we have forgotten one of the princiyall points. For we have not yet demanded of Thomas the cause wherefore he would go to saint Patrick: the which I desire glady to know. Thomas. I have determined with myself many times to tell you: but I desire, to hear first what Eusebius can say against you. Wherefore I do think it best that forasmuch as all these days, there is none of us which is so greatly occupied but that we may give him the next day for his revenge, to answer: And after that I have heard all you, I will declare unto you the marvelous fantastes which I have in my head. hilarius. I believe, that there is none of us, but that he is of that opinion. Theophilus. In steed where others do pass away the time in playing and other vain occupations, whereof cometh no profit, I find it better, that we use such recreations, which bring no hurt unto any man, but may much serve and profit us. For in so doing we learn the one the other: and do examine the things together, the better to know how to tender a reason of our Law and Religion: besides that we learn some honest recreation together, the which is better agreeing with our estate, then to remain idle without doing any thing, or in losing the time in beholding foolish plays and masks: or in banqueting and in bestowing great expenses, yet to the hurt and domame of our bodies and souls: or unto sleeping, and as beasts to give ourselves only unto pleasures, as many do. And although that all we may be occupied in other men's affairs, either public or domestical, which would better serve for the purse and for the particular gain & profit: yet nevertheless one cannot be always attentife in great affairs, without having some intermission and relaxation of the spirit: And we must not be so covetous after the gain and the particular profit, that at no time we should have leisure to speak and falke of the things of God, and that thorough honest pleasures and recreations, we may not refresh our wits and spirits, and prepare them again to the great affairs to which God hath called us all, according to the grace that we have received of him. Thomas. There is nothing more certain than that which thou sayest, and I would not for a great thing, but that I had been with you and to have herded, that which I have herded. hilarius. We shall know in the end what taste thou hast had therein. Yet nevertheless I do more fear least that Eusebius be more offended than thou. But I trust notwithstanding, that the hope that he hath of the victory, will give him courage and boldness to come again the more willingly. ¶ A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPAL matters of the first part of the Dialogues. A. ABuses are not yet enough uncovered & made known. fol. 16 Accipe sal sapientae. 35. Adventurers. 47. Adam's apparel. 114. Affectators of languages. what affections the Gospel doth permit. 67. Alexander the first inventiour of holy water. 35. Alexandrines. 66. Alexander Severus Emperor. 43. Ambrose and Theodosius. 78. Ambition of Alexander. 13. Anacharsis. 5. angels the ministers of the faithful. 103. Anniver saries. 25. Antipopes and Schisutaticks. 88 Ape's requisite in the court of Babylon. 19 Apes of jesus Christ. 35. apothegm of Diogenes. 60. Applications of jesus Christ. 34 Arithivettcians and school of Arithineticke. 42. Aristoxenus. 70. The art to learn priests to be sober. 39 All arts & disciplines the handmaidens of holy letters or books. 6. Avarice of the Romans. 41. avernus. 90. The authors & instituters of funerals. 100 B. Babbles of fools. 8. Bay tree. 75. Bactrianians and Hireanians. 58. Bacchus. 33. 13 Babylon taken 93. Bagpipe of Sathau. 106. Banner and the cross. 73. Baptisine. 41. Baptisines and washings of the jewish people. 34. baptizing of bells. 73. Baths. 45. Bathing place of the dead. 36. Battle of the devil against dead bodies. 102. Bells and Images the Priest's vicar's 71. Bells do speak all languages. 72. Bells to drive away the dwells. 73. Bellies that are shoughtfull. 74. Benedictio bladi, salis & overum. 42. Benedictio resurni. 42. Benedictio pera; & baculi. 42. Benedictio annuh & lecti. 42. Benedictio domus novae. 42. Benedictio casulae. 42. Benedictio ad omnia. 42. Benedictio panis & seminum. 42. Beautify the sepulchres with flowers. 45. Brernoyes. 66. Blasphemy most horrible. 105. Blasphemy of the Cordelier. 106. The blessings of the missal & the Manuel of the Priests. 42. Blondus. 47. Body and burnall of Moses. 103. Bodies of dead men in steed of the Idols of the paynim. 105. The bones of Christ whole. 50. The book of job dedicated to the dead. 70. Vile books 7. Good books despised and forbidden. 8. Books discevering abuses. 9 joyful Books. Books and talks that are filthy. 9 Latin Books. 4. French books. 4. Saint Brandon. 95 Burying of the poor in the night. 33. Bury one before he is dead. 64. Burying of the rich. 68 Burying of Pallas. 68 Burying of the poor. 69. Burying of the Turks. 70 burials of Daynts. 105. burial sold. 43. Those dishonour God which do not honestly bury the dead. 67. Burying of the Barbarians. 66. Burying of an Ass. 68 Burying of a Raven. 69. Butchery of the Priests. 65 Bishop Tibaud. 89 Bishops the Priests bawds. 43 C. Calendar of the Shepherds. fol. 27 The Candle that goeth before. 64. Canes sepulehrale●. 58 Sea Calves. 75. Canon of the Mass & the Alcoran forbidden to be read. 80. Canonization 78. Canonization of Saints. 31. Capernaites. 49. 50. Carnal Gospelers. 39 The cause wherefore God doth chastise us in this world. 83. The cause wherefore the Purgatory of jesus Christ hath been unknown. 57 Cerberus the Porter of hell. 51. Chanong of Mount Falcon. 58. Char●bdis. 91. Charon the ferryman. 87. The charity of the ancient Christians. 54. The chastisement of the father tourards the child. 84. Christ and Antichrist. 88 The christian all in all 8. The Christian tributary before he isborne and after he is dead. 41. Churchyard. 67. Cicero and Catilina. 7. Cocytus. 92. Commemoration of the dead. 77. Commemoration of Mortirs 77. Complaint of a Curate. 65. Comparison of the rich man and of Lazarus. 98. Comparison of the true Priests and Physicians. 76 Conjurers. 100LS. Conjuring. 104. Conjure the time. 75. Confession. 41. Confirmation. 41. The confines of hell. 23. Consilium Elibertinum. 53. Consecration of jesus Christ. 103. Counsel of Demas. 13. Counsel to worship the host. ●1. To bear the cross of jesus Christ. 103 The croyzatde. 54. Cryings of the dampened. 26. The cruelty of Pope Clement. 43 The cruelty of the Priests towards the souls. 62. Custom of the Bigordians 45. Custom of Thessalia. 103 Custom of the Egyptians. 77. Custom to praise the dead. 77. Ancient custom. 70 The custom of the dead, and the serye money of Charon. 45. D. Days dedicated unto the dead. 99 Dama●cenus. 96. Dangerous beggars. 55. Darkness of the world. 1 Dathan and Abiron. 57 Daughters of the horfeleach. 52 The dead why are they called trespasses. 87 Death doth mock the Priests. 65. Death bought for money. 45. Holy deceiving. 9 Decrees and Canons. 88 deliverance from hell. 95 Demand tribute of the dead. 4● Demetrians. 91. Democritus. 20. Departed out of Egypt. 93. Diana the goddess of the Ephesians. 93. Dicearchus. 70. The Deity. 38. Difference of smnes, and the diversity of the estates of the dead. 30. Difference between to speak evil and to speak the truth. 53. The dykes of the fortresses of the Papists. 91. Diodorus. 77. Diogenes. 34. 20. Disguysing of men like woeemen. 106. Descending into hell in Sycile. 24. The description of the hill Aetna. 25. Dispensation for to eat flesh and white meat. 43. Disputations of Ciccero. 10. To dispute with heretics. 59 devils visible. 26. The devil Zazel or Azazel. 101 Division of the infernal Cosmography. 28 Diversity of purgations 31 divers opinions of the deliverance of Traianus. 95. The doctrinal of Alexander. 6. Doctrine Papistical. 95 Doctrine of man mingled with the heavenly doctrine. 15. Dodonaeum aes, dodonae lebe●es. 74 The Dormouse. 36. Drink upon the hide to came. 6●. To drive away the dutell by water. 102. To drive away the devil thorough fastings and prayers. 39 The purging drogues of the paynim. 33. Dumb Dogs and criers. 5●. E. Ears delyeate and pleasant. fol. 12. To eat jesus Christ. 49. To eat jacob. 50. To eat the skin and the bones 51. Egyptians at this present time. 1 Egypt and Babylon. 2. Eloquence apostolical and human. 5. Eloquence without the fear of god. 7. Emperors and Popes abolyshing the statutes of their predecessors. 88 Epiphanius. 74 Epicurians. 17. Eridanus. 90. Reichtho the Sorcerer. 103. Errors of Saul. 1. Error touching the honouring and invocation of Saints. 78 Eschines and Demosthenes. 7. The estate of the dend. 79. Aethna the hill Gibello. 24. Eurotos and Peneus. 90. Example of Eliseus. 34 Example of the Smiths. 36 Extreme unction. 42. Excommunication for money. 68 Extractors of the fifth essence. 22. F. Fable of the Dog and the Ass. 19 Feigned fable upon the bittory of Lazarus. 27 Fable of a Cordelier. 102. The Poetical fable of Enceladus and of the Giants. 25. Faith. 10. Fall of Angels and of men. 97. Fall of Peter. 1. Fauns and satires. 26 Fall of the Souls. 101 Fastings & prayers of the christians. 39 Feast and procession of Cybele. 74. Fasting hurtful unto those that are subject to anger. 62. Feast of Saint Fradnces. 105 Feasto ot the dead. 24. F●●ldes Eliseas. 32. The felicity of Lice and their boldness. 105. The fire insatiable. 52. Fire and water. 88 The fire begun in Purgatory. 82. The celestial and evangely call fire. 56. The true fire of Purgatory. 56. The true fire of Purgatory. 56. To Ash in troubled water. 92. Fishers of Christ and Antichrist. 92. Fishers of gold and silver. 92 Fishers forsaken. 93. Fishers of souls. 92. Flears and manglers of Latin. 5. Fleread novercae tumulum. 6. The flood of Christ. 91. Floods of hell, their names and interpretaciens. 89. Floods of wine and milk. 89. Floods of Paradise. 89 90. The forbidding of jultan the Apostate. 16 The forbidding of books. 90. Formosus. 88 The forchead of the Hypocrites and of the Prophets. 18. To forget God. 91. Foundation for the poor. 70. Foundation of the faith of transubstantiation. 82 Foundations of the prayers for the dead. 101 The fool counsel the wise. 2. Fountains of excessive cooldenesse and heat. 26. Funus ●uneralia. 70. The furnayce of Purgatory. 55. G. Ganges. fol 90. Gaudeamus of the Priests. 55 Unto whom we must give. 54. The Geography of hell. 23. The gift of tongues and languages. 4. Gluttony. 99 God Pluto. 55. God hath not instituted sacrifices nor feasts for the dead. 99 The true God, and that of the priests. 48 Tributary Gods & to be sold. 54. To do good whilst we are alive. 98. gospel published unto all men. 80. Griffins and hell Ravens. 26. Gregorianists. 79. Greeks and Latins. 77. H. The habit and apparel of Christ, and of the religious Christians. 106 Harpies. 52. Hebrus. 90. Hechelberge. 26. Hell and hell fire. 22 Hell and hell fire are eternal. 40 Hell. 22. 29. 40. Hell in Sicily. 25 Heraclitus. 20. Heredis sleius sub persona risus est. 65 Heritage of God. 51. Herodia. 72. Herophiles. 70. Hides for shoes. 65. The hills Island and Norway. 26. The dolorous hill in Scotland. 26. Hypocrites. 18. Hi1tory. 64. Histories of our time. 10. A true history of our time. 44 A true history. 81. A true history in the year of our Lord 1538. of a Priest that was a Sorcerer, and of his whore. 81. Holy Ghost the comforter. 92. The honour of jesus Christ traden under 12. The honour due unto the dead. 66. Hunters after testaments and heritage's 65. I Idolatry of the Image of our Lady. fol. 74. jesus Christ the eternal Pope. 88 Wherein the jews do follow the paynim. Saint Ignatius. 95 Induction. 50 Infants that are born dead. 28 Infants salted. 35. Intention to consecrated. 81. Innocation of Saints. 80. Imitation of the paynim. 34. Infatible things. 52 judas out of hell. 95. judgement of the Lord 106. jupiter Elyeins. 75. Wherefore shall the judgement be according to the works. 85. K. Those that do kill themselves. 68 King of Castille. 105 Kingdom of God. 92. L. Our Lady of Lausanne and her miracles. 44. The lakes and ponds of the Papists. 89. Lady Dogs. 19 Lake without water. 89. The lakes and infernal floods. 88 The Paschal Lamb. 50. Lamenting or surr●wing for the dead. 67 Lamentations of the prieses for the dead. 64 Lamenters. 66. language of the Christians. 9 All languages good unto God. 4. Law of the babylonians for those that be sick. 3. Law of Numa. 38. Law of Demetrius. 70. To laugh at the Pope's cost. 20. A lesson to the Priests. 99 The leaves of the Fig tree of Adam. 106 The Legends of the Papists. 78 Libitina Libitinari●. 65 The Limb. 97. The Limb of the Infants. 29. Licence and liberty of Dialogues. 13. The devouring Lyon. 94. The Lion of the Tribe of juda. 94. To show lyingswithout truty. 10. To lose one's langhing. 27. The lovers of man's honour and traitors of the divine. 12. Lucian and Lucianists. 10. Lucri bonus odor ex●re qualibet. 41. M. Saint Machalre. 95. Malo nodo, malus cuneus. 18. Manducation spiritual. 49. Manducation charuall. 50. Manducation Papistical. 50. The manner to mock to the glory of God. 12. The manner to speak joyfully in the holy Scriptures. 14. The infernal Maps. 24. Merchants in the Church. 53. Marriage. 41. Marriage of Priests. 81. Matrons which do bury in the plague took. 65. Dangerous Marrianers. 93. Masks and morish dances. 99 Masses long and short. 63. Masses of hunters. 63. The Mastiffs and Haryers of jesus Christ. 20. The means to find out truth. 2. The means of God. 35. The means to comfort the the priests. 65 Members of jesus Christ. 50 The Memento of the dead. 81 Men more joyful & more privileged. 64 Mercury. 33. Merit and grace. 84. Metonimia. 51. The Milanois. 46. Mimus. 65. The true ministers worthy of food. 71. Minstrels at the burials. 66 Minstrels of lairus. 67 False miracles. 44. Black Moonkes. 69 To take money for the Sacraments & Ecclesiastical offices. 53. Mortui non mordent. 103. N. Nadhegrin. 26. The nature of of the truth. 11 Naulum. 45. Necrocorinthia. 41. Nerolatrie. 104. Natts and engines of the Priests. 93. Nero. 43 Micanor. 58. Nilometers. 91. The flood Nilus and the fertility of Egypt. 91. Notaryes and Prothonotaryes. 77 Numa Pompilius. 75. O. Objection. 83. Obolus. 45 The odours and smell of a hog. 7. Odilo Abbot. 24. Offer wine for the dead. 37 Office of a fool and babbler. 9 Office of a Prophet. 14. Office for the dead. 87 One only verity 2. One Mass a day. 63. Opinion of the divines. 23 Opinion of Isidore. 23. Opinion of the Robins & jewish Doctors touching the body. 101 Oppedere contra tonittus. 67 Orcus. 90 To take orders. 42 Orationes funebres. 77. The original and beginning of prayers for the dead. 78 The ornaments of white sepulchres. 52. Overflowing of Tiber. 91. Out of taste of the bread of life. 7. P. Panegyres. fol. 77. The pain of those that are deprived from their burial. 46. Papists excommunicated. 53. All pipistical pricsts excommunicated. 53. To go into Paradise in post. 63. Paradise. 97. Parentalia. 25. The parents and friends can do nothing after one to dead. 101 Pastors and Shepherds feeding themselves. 51. Pericles. 77. To persecute jesus Christ. 50. Persians. 58. Personages of Dialogues. 15 Peter Rosset a Poet royal 58. Good Physicians. 64. Physicians of Souls. 31 Physicians and Apothecaries of hell. 33 Pillars and devourers. 51. The place of the souls of the papists. 06. Plato and Virgile. 30. Pluto. 40. The poison of the Athenians. 4●. All Pope's Antipopes & Antechrists' 88 The Pope maketh the Princes his hanguien. 58. Poinegranards and Bells hanging upon the bestement of the high Priest of the law. 73. Pottage for the souls. 53. To pray for the Virgin Mary and the Saints. 82. Prayers for the living. 94. To preach jesus Christ mask wise or covertly. 13. Praeseth bulletarum. 43 Preparation for the departure out this life. 98 Presence of jesus Christ. 49. It is forbidden the Priests to be at the burying of the dead. 67. The Priests of Cybele. 74. Priest's Minstrels. 67 The Priests do not pray but for those that be in Paradise. 82 Priests the churchyard and sepulchres both of men and jesus Christ. 47. Priests following the jews. 100 The pride of Caligula. 42. Privilege of evil Physicians and hangmen. 64 Prisoners of Purgatory. 29. Privileges. 95. Privation of the burial 68 Profit of the burial. 97. Profit in discovering abuses. 17. property of salt. ●4. Provises of God contrary unto Papistical Purgatory. 82. Prophecy against the Egyptians. 93. The prose of the dead. 83. A new Proverb of the Priests. 65 A Proverb. 65. A Proverb. velut canise Nylo. 6. Protonatory of name. 78 Purgatory. 32. 97 Purgatory of jesus Christ and that or the Pope. 56. Purgatory Platonieall. 30 Purgatory and his revenues. 23. Purgatory of the pocky. 38 The movers of sedition of purgatory. 55 How Purgatory is buried. 40. Purifications at the funerals. 37 The punishment of those that reject the Gospel & do go unto a strange fire. 56 Punishment of malefactors. 85. Punishment of David. 83. Q. To quench fire with fire. 58. The quick reputed for dead. 36 Nuasting forbidden. 99 R. Repines and extortions of Caligula. 42. Rationale divinorum osticiorum. 81 Raw earth. 44 Those which do fly from the reading of holy books. 6. Curious readers of foolish books. 7 Refounders or melters. 38. Religion of beggars, or begging Religion. 54 Remedy against the thunder and lightning. 75. Renullion & forgiveness in this world 98 The rental of Purgatory. 39 To repose or remain Christ. 82. Reproach of the Paysant to the priests. 65 Repugnauncio of doctrine. 94 Requiems of the poor and rich. 63. Requirescant in pace. 38. Thr riches of Purgatory. 30 Three kinds of righteousness after Plato. 97 Ringing of bells. 68 To ring for the time. 75 Rule of the divine service for the dead. 63 Ruth and Booz. 97 Ruth and Noe●●. 100 S. divers sacrifices the dead for divers causes. 100LS. Sacrifice of jesus Christ 48 Salt in the baptisute. 35. Salt of wisdom. ●5. Salt of the word of God. 35. Salt of the Priests. 35. Salting and seasoning of fools. 35 The salutation of the soldier unto the holy fathers. 39 Samson and David. 94. The efficacy & strength of Satan. 106 Satiffation for sins. 8● Saturn and Rea. 59 All savours are good, so that money do come. 41. The sclpunder of the Pharisees. 18. shepherds feeding themselves. ●1 Scotland and Ireland. 27. Selling of offices. 43. Sellying of the burial. 54. Senna therib. 94. Sennacherib Roman. 94. Sepulchre of jesus Christ. 53. sepulchres insatiable. 52. White or painted sepulchres. 52. To sing after the dead. 87. Singing of Masses. 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche. 60. Signification of bells. 71. 74. Signification of hell. 17. Signification of the deep lake. 89. Sign of the cross. 102 Sillogismus in Darif. 51 Simonse and Simoniackes. 53. Sins of Princes. 30. Sins of the simple people. 30. Sins of Princes and Cyronts. 29. Siticines. 66. Sop in the throat. 51. A soul drawenfrom hell. 90 A soul taken in a net. 89. To what serveth the washings of souls 36. The spertell of the priests. 35. The spertell of jesus Christ. 34. To sprinkle the sepulchres with water. 37. The spirit the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum. 48. Stephen the sixth. 88 Stlgmates. 103. Style of the holy Ghost. 18 Styx. 9● The Philosophical stone. 55. Stiffocations. 36 Supper. 42. T. Tanners of men's skins. 65. Tannefat of the Priests. 64. Temple of God. 49. The cause of the temptations of the elect. 1. Tempus. 31 The Poetical Theology. 24 Thuringie. 26. Three differences of sins & the diversity of the payves. 31 Tibicines. 66 Time of Gregory. 96 Time of pestilence. 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillars of the usurers. 30 Torches and candles at the burials. 33. Torches at the funerals. 70. Troianus delivered from hell. 9●. Tree of life. 90. The true science and eloquence. 7. Tribute of the brine and of the stews. 41 Tribute of victuals & of process. 42 Tribute of get pennies and whores. 42. Tribute of Moriages. 42. Tribute of players. 42 The papistical tribute of victuals. 42 Tribute of whores. 43 Tributaries of Priests. 54. Trophonius den. 27. V Vealegon arder. 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Proverve. 6 The virtue of the truth. 30. The virtue of the habit of S. Frances. 105. Vespiliones. 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrick's wells. 26. Vino rogum ne respargito. 38. Use holy water at burials. 101 Vow of Herode. 81 W. To be in the way. 35. Waters of Egypt. 95. Water of tribulation. 94. Holy water. 34. Holy water unprofitable. 88 To watch the dead. 104. The old women that do keep the children that be born dead. 44 Weeping of the Crocodile. 64. Whoredom. 81. Widow askng counsel of the bells. 72. Canon witness. 24. Too wise or over wise. 13. Holy wood. 75. Idle word. 9 What good works God requireth for the dead. 100 Good works done to the dead by Booz. 100 Works of mercy towards the dead. 97. What works do follow the dead. 85. What works God requireth of us and to what end. 83 Works of Angels and the elect. 84. Works done for us after we be dead. 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Devil. 101. FINIS TABULAE. ¶ THE SECOND PART of the Christian disputations. By Master Peter Viret. Translated out of French into English by john Brook of ash next Sandwich. MATHEW. XU. A. IX. ¶ In vain they worship me teaching doctrines which are nothing but men's precepts. MIEULX VAULT MOURIR E VERTV QVE VIURE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206) ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East. THE SUM OF THE third Dialogue. IN this third Dialogue by reason that Eusebius maintaineth and upholdeth that the Prayers and Sussrages for the dead, are of God's ordinance, and of the institution of the auneient Church, it is entreated off very amply by Theophilus and hilarius, and showed out point by point of what original and beginning that did first begin, & by whom it was begun, and hath been augmented, as well among the paynim, as the jews and Christians: And what hath been the customs and ceremonies of the one & the other, as well in their mourning and sorrowing for the dead, as in their anniversaries, Feasts & Obsequys for the dead. And because that there is great conformity between the feasts dedicated unto the dead, as well among the paynim as the papistical Christians, we will declare evidently by conferring the one with the other, not only the agreeing that these feasts have togother, but also that which is amongst many other ceremonies joined with them, and depending upon them: The which have been borrowed of the paynim by the papistical Christians, or at the lest wife the imitation is so clear and evident, that there is none but that he may easily judge, that they proceeded all from one spirit. For to manifest and declare then this same the better, and for to make it the playnelyer to be seen, we will declare point by point the conformityes which are between the one and the other, touching the diverse feasts and days dedicated unto the dead, and touching the forbidding of marriage at certain times. Afterwards the conformity of some feasts and Idols of the paynim and Papists, and the feast of the candles and divers purisications observed of the one part and of the other: And the consecrations of Torches, Wax, Waxcandles, Salt, holy Water, Fire, Ashes and many other such divers matters, by the which evory one may easily judge, who hath been the author of the popish Ceremonies: and what difference there is between the ancient Panim Rome, and the Romish Church, such as it is at this present. We do call this Dialogue, anniversaries, or years minds, because that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies, which yearly have been observed among the superstitious and Idolaters about the dead, as of the strange Gods. ¶ Now for to enter in the matter, Theophilus beginneth after this manner. THE THIRD DIALOGUE which is called anniversaries or years minds. THeophilus, I am very glad because that you are all come in so good time, & chief of Eusebius. For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talk and dysputations that we had yesterday. But as far as I can perceive, not with standing that he be very much rooted in his old opinions & superstitions, yet never thelsse I know that he differeth much from a heap of obstinate and wilful fools, which have no reason at all to defend their cause, nor know how to take any other weapons than opinions and obstinations, for to fight against the truth, neither know how to find any other mean to vanquish it and to revenge themselves thereof, then to hurt and wrong those which do propound it unto them, when all other reason saileth, and to shut their ears against the same, to the end they understand it not. Eusebius, I came the more willingly, because I thought myself better armed than I was yesterday, and that I can fight better to day, and to be revenged & have more advantage upon you. For I was yesterday suddenly taken and assailed, being unprovided, neither did I think that we should descend into such a field to fight: or otherwise I would have come more armed, and better in order, for to defend myself and to fight against you. hilarius. We did think no more of it than you, neither were we prepared nor armed for the same. Eusebius. I believe you well. Wherefore I do know now by experience that the same which is said of all you is true. For it seemeth that you have all the holy Scripture upon your finger's ends, and that you have never studied in any other thing, of which I marveled greatly, in hearing you speak, chyeslye hilary, which is none of the greatest studyentes in the world, at the leastwise in the holy Scriptures. For he hath always loved better to carry a Virgile or an Ovid in his sleeve, than a Bible. And yet nevertheless he is now a Doctor, as if he had passed Doctor in Sorbonne. As for Theophilus, I am not so much abashed: For all his life time he hath been very devout, and hath always loved to read in the Bible. I am sorry for nothing, but for this: that he is become a Lutherian, and that he is now so contrary unto our Mother the holy Church: For I would never have thought that he would have so fought against the good faith, and the ancient law: But I trust, if God vouchsafe, that howsoever armed you be, you shall not find me to day so feeble as before, nor you shall not fight with me so much at your ease, although that you be two against one, yea, almost all three. For Thomas is so variable, that I know not of which side he will stick too. Thomas. Yet I am not nevertheless a Lutherian, but think myself to be as good a Christian as thou art. Defend thyself valiantly, and thou shalt see if I be contrary unto thee, so that thou do speak with reason. It is very true, that I cannot very much help and secure thee. For thou dost well know that I am an ignorant man, and that I have not much studied neither in divine nor yet humane books, but I always followed the good faith as others did: saving that I had sometime some doubt in my conscience, and yet more now then ever I had, seeing the differences which are in the Christianity. hilarius. But after that we have heard Eusebius, we will give thee place to expound it, as thou thyself hast required. And therefore friend Eusebius enter now & begin to fight, for as far as I can perceive, thou comest not with false ensigns, nor without having thy harneyes' bright. But what book is that thou holdest in thy hand? Eusebius. It is Eccius. hilarius. Eccius. When thou didst name unto me that great Captain and master Gunner of the papistical army, thou wouldst make me to tremble and quake, if that I were fearful: But I comfort myself again in one thing, that although that it be provided with great Canons and Artillarye, Artillery of the Papists yet nevertheless it is evil provided and furnished with powder and shot, and there be no pellets for to make any great breach, but account it as the Harquebuts, which are only charged with paper, without having either lead or stone within it, which give great strokes for to make women and little children afraid. But they hurt no man, neither do they make the men of war afraid, nor it cannot pierce thorough their harness. Eusebius. I will compel thee by and by to speak otherwise, and I will make thee to feel it better than thou winnest. hilarius. I stay upon nothing, but that thou do put to the fire, for to burn up and consume that fire of purgatory, which will be altogether put out and quenched, if thou do not let it. In the mean time I will make my bulwark and fortress of Theophilus, for to receive the first blows, and I will not departed from the skirmish, but when I shall see mine advantage. Nevertheless, I will yet serve thee in steed of a Trumpet, for to make thou to enter into battle, and to give the Allarume unto thy adversary. Begin then to strike. Eusebius. Before we enter any further in the combat, I would gladly, sith that you condenme the prayers and suffrages, which the Church both make for those that be dead, that you tell unto me, how it is possible that the Church could have erred so long time in that matter, and who hath been the first author and muentour of that error and heresy (sith that you so call it) and after wards I hope for my part, that I will prove you the contrary, by such reasons and authorities, that you shall be constrained, to accuse yourselves of error, and heresy, and to return unto the faith of the holy Church, and to confess, that she hath not taken the custom to pray for the dead of her own fantasy, without being well assured that God hath commanded it by his word, and that Purgatory was well allowed by the same. Theophilus. If you had well considered and kept in mind, that which we have already spoken off, that is, of the custom which hath been amongst the paynim in their funeral Drations and praysinges, and how the ancient Church hath changed that manner of doing into a better use. You should easily know what hath The beginning of prayers and suffrages for the dead. been the beginning of the commemoration of the prayers and suffrages for the dead, and that the custom of the ancient Fathers hath differed very much, yea, and altogether contrary unto that which is now in the Popish Church: But because that the same hath been already entreated off amongst us amply enough, I will not reintreate nor rehearse it again. But for to satisfy thy question which thou hast now propounded, I will only advertise thee that those errors & abuses, and that superstitious remembrance and full of blasphemies, such which we do now see to be practised about the dead, did take great force and were greatly multiplied by Pope Pelagius, Pope Pelagius. who made an ordinance, much dyffering and contrary unto the custom of his predecessors, and of the ancient Church: After whom succéeded Gregory the great, Gregory 1 who hath not amended and corrected the abuses & errors, but hath still nourished, augmented and increased them, and hath been the cause of many Idolatries and superstitions, which have brought great hurt and damage unto God's Church. And lest that you should think that I speak without reason & authority, judge a little of that which Nauclerus witnesseth, that Gregory the third hath written unto Boniface being Legate and Ambassador into Nauclerus Gregory. 3 Boniface. Almaigne, to wit whether that Christians may offer for their dead, which were truly Christians: And hath commanded that the Priests aught to make commemoration of them. Dne may very well presume by that advertisement and commandment that which Gregory made unto Boniface, touching this matter, that it is not Mass for the dead. long ago that the Mass hath begun to be a sacrifice for the dead, and that the institution is not so ancient as some men do think it to be: at the leastwise that jesus Christ and his Apostles have not been the author thereof. For Boniface would not have kept it secret in that time. Wherefore I give more credit, unto those which have written that Pope Pelagius hath been the author, inventor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers, the which we see daily yet in use among the Christians, and we call them the good deeds for the dead, then to any of those which have followed the Apostles. Eusebius. If you had read over and ruminated the ancient doctors of the Church, you shall not find that doctrine so new, but you would speak otherwise and should know that the Church hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Saint Gregory were born. And, de obitu Theodos. Wherefore then did Saint Ambrose make mention, writing of the death of the Emperor Theodosius, of the first, seventh, thirty and forty day that the Church did celebrated, making remembrance of the dead, and for what cause they did the same? of whom the words are written in the decrees after this manner. Because that Days dedicated to the dead. 13. quest. 2. cap Quta. some have used to observe the third caye, other some the seventh, and others the thirty in the office of the dead. Let us consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth us. It says: After that jacob was dead, joseph commanded Genes. 58. a. 3 his servants that they should bury him: And the The burial & mourning for lacob. children of Israel buried him and the forty days being accomplished, for so were the days of the burial counted & they lamented seven days. We aught to follow that solemnity, the which the holy scripture describeth unto us It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium. Deut. 34. c. 8 Mourning for Moses. that the children of Israel lamented Moses, and did weep thirty days, and then the mourning was ended, heth those two observations have then authority, by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished. Do you not see here plainly by the words of Saint Ambrose, that already in his time the Church did the office and commemoration of the dead, and did celebrated in their memory certain days, and yet the ancients have not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters, as you say and affirm, but after that imitation of the ancient patriarchs and Prophets and of the people of God? Theophilus. I am abashed, I know not whether I Answer to the objection. shall speak it of the ignorance & malice of your doctors. For if they understand that Saint Ambrose hath allowed that which they at this day do uphold and maintain, they do greatly err, and show themselves to be very ignorant. Also if they understand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked, to pervert and mar the sense of the same, for to maintain their abuses, and always the more to keep the poor people in error. first, they well perceive and see that Saint Ambrose maketh no mention, neither of Purgatory, Lamenting and sorrowing for, the dead. nor of Mass for the dead, and that that place cannot serve but for the sorrow that men take for the dead. For yet in that time, the Church approached nearer unto the purity of the primative Church, and was not so much corrupted, as she hath been afterwards, sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the great. This then that he maketh mention of the first, seventh, thirty, and forty day, in his book and sermon that he made of the death and burial of Theodosius, is not set forth by him, for to nourish and hold the pepole in the superstitions of the Panyms, as you do, but rather to draw them back from it, and for to induce and leave the Christians unto more greater honesty and modesty, to the sorrow that they aught to have for the dead. For that cause did he propound and set forth the example of the Israelites, not that he would thereby make a law unto the Christian people, that they should mourn, seven, thirty, nor forty days, because that the Israelites have mourned so many days for lacob, Moses, Aaron and Marie their sister, & yet less for to 'cause Masses to be said, and to banquet and make the priests broken, as they do Numeri. 10. a. 1. daily, at the Portuaries and anniversaries. For than he should teach the Christian people to play the jews, The Christian liberty. and sin against the Christian liberty, if he would of all the examples of the Scripture, and of the things done by the Israelites, draw out & take laws and statutes, for to command them unto the Christian people as necessary and ordained of God. For first of all God never hath defined, nor determined by his law, certain days, nor yet to lament and mourn for the dead, nor for to make any commemoration of them, as it appeareth very well, by the examples afore alleged. For the Israelites themselves have not kept a certain number of days at the mourning of jacob, Moses, Aaron and of Marie. For they did keep jacob in Genes. 50. a. 3 Egypt forty days, after that he was enbaumed: and the Egyptians bewept him Ixx, days. He was carried into Hebron: afterwards his sons bewept him seven days in Atad. But Moses, Aaron and Marie their Deut 34. c. ● Numerl. 20. 2, 1. sister were beewept every one of them thirty days. Thou dost see already here, that they are not very superstitious in the days, and that some time they have used The ordinary time for the mourning of the Israelites. Eccle. 22. b. 13 either more or less. It should seem that their ordivary was but for seven days. For it is written: Seven days do men mourn for him that is dead, but the lamentation over the unwise should endure all the days of their life. But when it is for some noble person, as for a Prince or a Prophet, or any man of great estimation, and renome, they would of custom prolong their mournynges until thirty days. But they would not wyliyngly pass béeyond it as we see here in these three examples of Moses. Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the The translation of 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 Canaan. people of Israel, asmuch and more than any other ever were. The mourning of jacob was a little more longer, because he was carried to be buried a great way, and that they carried him from the land of Egypt into the land The holiness of the land. of Canaan: not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy than that of Egypt, as touching his nature, or that The witness of the faith of the patriarchs it had any more virtue, for the health of the body or soul of him that was buried there, as the superstitious Christians and poor ignorant do judge of the earth in the churchyard, because that it was blessed and hallowed by their Bishops and Priests. But they did that, for to witness in Act. ●. 3 ● Heb. 11. b. 8 the article of the dead, the hope that they had in the promise made unto Abraham of that land, and for to confirm their successors in the same, to the end they should The buying of the field of Ephron. Genes. 23. d. ●S. be certain & assured that they should possess it, although that they never received one foot during their life, except that possession which Abraham bought for to make a burial place for him, his wife and all his family. This he did, that it should be a witness unto all his successors, that they should be heirs of that land of which he hath The translation of the bones of jacob. Genes. 50. d. 25 already taken possession. For that same cause also, jacob commanded and ordained in his testament, that his body should not be buried in Egypt, but that it should be carried into the land of Canaan, in the sepulchre of his fathers. And joseph his son following that example hath also commanded the children of Israel, to heap his bones, until they enter into that land? not for to made reliches of them, and to enclose them in gold or silver for to worship them, all the while that they shallbe in Egypt, The holiness of the land of Canaan. or in the land of Canaan, after that they shallbe arrived in the same, but for to bury them there: not for the opinion that he had of the worthiness of his sepulture, or of the holiness of the land. For than it was inhabited of the Panyms & Insidels, o● the Canaas, Amorrians, & others like which were so abominable, because of their erecrable crimes, that God could, not suffer them. but hath exterminated, driven away and destroyed them by his just Denl. S. a ● judgement, for to give that land as an heritage unto his people. But joseph, although that he died in Egypt would first witness, that he believed perfectly in the promise of God. And for more greater probation of his faith, hath left unto them that witness of the same, for to assure them that they should enter there once, sith that he would not be buried, until such time as they were come thither, for to inherit the promised land. That was almost such a witness, as that of jeremy, in buying the field jere. 31. 8. 44 The buying of I cremy of his cousin, which was in the land of juda: willing thereby to declare and show forth, that the people than were in captivity, and almost all of them did despair never to return into their land (notwithstanding that the Lord had promised unto them the contrary) which was unto him certain & sure of the promise of the Lord. Wherefore he would give unto them a good hope of their returning, promised chiefly by Esay long time before the captivity, and by jeremy and ezechiel prophesying at the time that the captivity approached, and during the same: therefore did he buy that field and that possession, for to testify by that buying, that he had a good hope of his return, and that he was assured by the word of God, what soever infidelity was in the people: or otherwise he had been a fool and not well advised, to put his money in hazard to be lost, and himself to be mocked, and accomted for a liar & a false prophet. Paking then that buying to the intent, it was unto him as a sacrament, even as the burial of joseph deferred until the entering unto the land of Canaan, the which he would not defer for any thing what soever it be, for to be deprived from the burial so long time, and from the honour which is due unto the body, according to the ordinance of God, the which he would by no means resist. Genes. 33. d. 19 Thomas. You speak of many things, but how do I know whether the same aught to be understanded after that sort as you expound it. Theophilus. If thou doubt of my exposition, read the xi. Chapter of Saint Paul's Cpistles unto the Hebrews, Hebrt. 11. a 1. and thou shalt see whether the Apostle doth not set thee in the way for to come unto the intelligence and interpretation. Eusebius. But you show not the cause, wherefore they observed certain days for to finish their funerals & mournings. Theophilus. I have already answered thee, that they The cause of the days appointed for moarning. did not the same for any superstition that they had to the number as the Panyms. For the patriarchs & Prephets were not so much of the sect of Pythagoras, nor such great observers of the numbers, as the Papistical doctors, and Durand. in ratio. diui. off. lib. 7. Rub. de off. mor namely Durand, who yielding the reason wherefore the Christians keep certain days dedicated to the commemoration of the dead, declareth the mysteries contained in the number of them, and hath written after this manner. Note that some celebrated the memory of the dead Ternarij. Septena lie Numerl. 19b. 11. the third day, for to represent the burial and resurrection of josus Christ, or in the honour of the Trinity. Others cause Masses to be song the seventh day, or seven days continually. Afterwards they prove that the same is taken of that place which is written in the book of Numbers: that he which shall touch the body of a dead man, shallbe defiled and unclean seven days. Is not the The philosophy of Pythagoras The cause of the moarning of the Israelises. same very fit for to prove the seven days feast of the Priests? I do omit a thousand other dreams, which are more mad, that one cannot belééue them. He practiseth a Philosophy and a Theology likewise upon the ninth, third and fourth and the day of the years mind, to which he maketh those numbers better to agree, then of ware, and better than ever Pithegoras did. For his Philosophy had more reason and doctrine. But that which the Israelites did, I think that the same was none otherwise, but for an honesty and cluditie which aught to be among the people of God. For they had no express law, nor commandment proper for the same, & the should make them to be subject unto them And although they had a commandment, as they have of their other ceremonialand civil laws, we should not be yet nevertheless therefore Liberty of the Gospel. bound, no more than we he to them, but should abide in the liberty in the which jesus Christ hath called us. Now if we be delivered from the subjection of ceremonies & laws which God himself hath expessely commanded, by a more stronger reason aught we to be exempted, & to abide & continued in our liberty, in the that hath been jest in liberty unto the people, which was yet under the servitude & bondage of the law. Wherefore I think the the Israelites did keep that custom among them, for the self same cause that joseph all, ledged speaking of Moses: De hath also provided in the funerals jeseph against Appion. li. 2 The la for the ludaieall funerals. of the dead, to that end that men do not celebrated sumptuous obsequys & burtals, & that men do not bestow great & costly buildings of sepuleres, but hath commanded, the the household servants of him which should be dead, should administer the necessary things, for to carry the dead to the grave. He hath also ordained, as a lawful thing that all those the be a live should assemble themselves together, when the any person should be dead, & should mourn & lament over him. He hath also commanded, the the domestical & those of his house should be purified after that burying. Although that we read not all these words of joseph, so expressed & placed in the books of Moses, yet nevertheless joseph, which was himself a jew, & a man of great knowledge. & well seen in the customs & judaical things, was not ignorant of the manner of their burials & funerals, & the causes wherefore they did all those things. He maketh The water of separation consecrated with the ashes of a young Heifer, Numeri. 19 c. 11 no mention, no more than Moses, the one should not make sacrifice nor offering for the health and salvation of the dead, nor that one should sprinkle it with holy water, and with the consecrated water that they did héepe mingled with the ashes of a young Heifer, for the purification of that living, not of the dead, but witnesseth only, that the domestical or those of that house which were assisting & helping at that funerals & burials, or touched the body sh●●ld be purified, by the ceremonies ordained of God, principally by that consecrated water, with that ashes of an Heifer the Purification of, +ter the funerals. Hebr 9 d. 13 which was a figure as witnesseth the Apostle, of the blood of jesus Christ, by which we are purified: who hath done that which the water and the ashes of the Heifer, could not do. Wherefore we have no more need of such ceremonies, sith that they are accomplished and fulfilled by jesus Christ: And yet much less of other new, invented by man's presumption. That than which the Israelites used certain ceremonies and mournings about the dead, had two respects. The first was, to the end that the people of God should not be like unto the barbarous and heathen people, as those of whom we have already spoken off, which did make less account of the bodies of that dead men, yea of their own parents and friends, then of the carcases of brute beasts. Again, even as the Lord would that his people should be far from such inhumanity and The means that we must keep in mourning & at the funerals, and the u ces of the paynim. barbarousness, so would he provide on the other side, for another great vice, which reigned amongst the paynim, who did to much exceed in sorrowing and mourning, in ceremonies, superstitions, Idolatries, and with to great expenses about their dead and funerals. Besides all this Barue 6. c 30. Leult. 1. & 21. Heodo. in Euterpe. 3. Reg 18. e. 28 they did many things not seemly to men. For some of them did round and poll their heads, beards & hears, the mourning, as Herodotus witnesseth of that Egyptians. There were also which did hurt and prick themselves with lancets, and made the blood to come forth of Theod. in Levi ticum, 19 Apul. asinl. aur lt. 1 1. Cice Tusc. q. 3. levit. 21. a. 3. their bodies, in the honour of the dead, & for to witness their dolour, after the same sort as the Pricsts of Baal did in praying to their God Baal. And the Priests of Cybele in like manner, who in that point followed them. They did also make marks in their flesh, with great superstition the which things the Lord did forbidden his people, namely in Leviticus. And therefore those good patriarchs and prophets, who were prudent and wise, and guided thorough the spirit of God, have found a good means to let and stop those vices and excess which they did commit aswell on the one side as on the other, amongst the Panyms. For if the paynim themselves have regarded that, and have need laws and statutes, for to correct the undecent things that was there committed: And the pomp and foolysti cost, that men bestowed about such banities, we must not be abashed, if the people of God, who aught to be the rule and moderation of all others have so well provided for the same, for to keep a mean in all things. For it is not possible that man, how spiritual soever he be, can rob or take from man, all human aflection, but that there abideth always a marvelous desire in his heart, of the person absent whom he loved, especially when thorough death it is separated from him. Sigh then that one cannot The lymitte of human affection. pluck away altogether that affection from man's heart, he must at the lcastwise set some lymitte; to the end that he exceed not measure, as the paynim did. For so long as the affection is too great, insomuch that it draweth us from God, and maketh us to stay more unto the creatures than is needful, it cannot please God. And therefore even as the Lord leaveth us to be man, and suffereth our human affections, which have some agreeing with his nature, and are the seed and pricks of virtues, so will he not suffer them to flow over, or arise above the lymittes of reason and honesty, as we have already touched in another place. The same then that the The time prescribed for the mourning Heorewes and Israelites had some certain number of days, for to mourn and lament their parents and friends that were dead, was not for to restrain every one generally and particularly to lament and mourn one so many days, without adding or dimimshing any, as if the number of the days were necessary; or that it containeth any religion and holiness in it: but to the end that those which should mourn and lamont, if one could not keep them from it altogether, without doing great biolence to their affections, at the leastwise, they should not pass that limit and time, which was bsed and prescribed, and which was long enough and sufficient, for to satisfy their heart and to mitigate their sorrow and heaviness. Wherefore I doubt not but that Saint Ambrose had The infention and meaning of S. Ambrose. regard unto that honostie and modesty, not for to induce the christian people unto jewishness, but to follow rather the erample of the holy patriarchs and Prophets, then of the paynim. As we may manifestly judge by his own words, without seeking the gloze and interprctation any further. For first of all he erhorted not that people to play unto god for the soul of Theodosius, but witnesseth evidétly, the he accounteth & holdeth him to be saved, & affirmeth many times the his soul is at rest, in light & felicity with jesus Christ his Lord Also he teacheth not the people to in vocate & pray unto him, not withstanding the he holdeth him as a saint in the kingdom of god: but admontsheth to pay unto the children, the which they do own unto the father, saying: they own him more after he is dead, then when he was living, After wards declareth unto them the means how they aught to acquit & order themselves towards their good Prince, after his death: that is, in commending his young children whom he hath left to be heirs of the Cmpire, and that they declare towards them the fidelity, faith, loyalty, and love that they had towards their father. It is sufficiently declared the theridamas is no mean more proper, nor any good deeds more agreeable nor more profitable for the dead, then to have in commendation and praise their successors, children and friends. On the other side, he comforteth the children, and chiefly goeth about to niltigate the dolour and sorrow of Honorius, because that it was not lawful for him to accompany the relyckes, that is to say, the other part of the body of his father, which was carried to be buried unto Constantinople, as they accustomed to do with the bodies of great Princes. Wherein it appeareth whereunto saint Ambrose pretended. For lest us not think that he hath been of an other mind and opinion than the other Doctors, which have written both in his time & before him. And to this end that you should the better know that I speak not so without reason, give ear and marlie what other Doctors says, which is contained in the Decrees themselves, and adjoined immediately after that which yond declared of Saint Ambrose, the which will serve us for the declaration of the same, and consormation of nsy worbes. First you have Saint Gyprian, who Cyprian. 13. ●. 2. Quam preposte rum. Mourning undecent for Christians. declareth unto the Christians that they ought not to be sorrowful and sad, neither for their death nor yet for that of others, saying: Is it not a straying and a perverse thing, to require that Gods will be done, and that we do not obey the same, when he calleth us out of this world, but do repugn and resist it, and as perverso and rebellious servants we are brought before our Lord with sorrow and mourning, and being colistrayned thorough the bond of necessity, not willingly and with a good heart. And we would be honoured with heavenly rewards by him, unto whom we do come maugre ourselves. And how many times is it revealed unto me, and commanded of GOD, that I do protest daily and preath openly, that we aught not to lament and mourn for our brethren which are called and delivered from this world by the Lord, sith that we know that they are not lost, but are only sent before, going for to over go us, even as those do, who do walk and swim. Unto this also agreeth Saint john Chrisostome, who Chriso ad pepu Hom. 69. & 70 Item in john c. 11. ad Hebr ca 2. Hom. 4 in many places hath rebuked and coereted the immoderate mourning of the Christians, saying among other things, I do not forbidden that we should not mourn for those which are departed out of this world, Let us lament and bewail them, but not undecently and unhonestly: not in tearing our hairs, uncovering of our arms, cutting our eyes, not in wearing black gowns, but only in our heart, shedding forth inwardly bitter tears. Also louse doth clearly show, that to lament Chrisosto. in Erst. ad Hebr. 13 q. 2. ubichnq3 Psa. 24. a. 1 and mourn for the dead, proceeded but of wealtenesse and for want of faith, saying: In whatsoever place we be buried in, the earth is the Lords and all things that therem is. That that he ought to do doth: But to lament, mourn and weep for those which are departed out of this life, cometh of weakness and for want of heart and courage. And it must not be understanded that it proceedeth from any other thing, then of a despair of the resurrection to come. Therefore the Apostle spade not simply, we would not 1. Thessa. 4. c. 1●. have you ignorant, concerning them that are fallen a sleep that you sorrow not, but he addeth moreover, as other do which have no hope. It is not then forbidden us to mourn and bewail the dead, through a compassion and affection of piety and a regard of humanity, as we do read, that some Saints and holy men, have bewailed (after God's law). the funerals of others. Therefore Anastacius in the same place hath said. Those which know Anasta. 13. ●. 2 habent. not nor look for any other life, & have no trust the from this world there is a place for to go unto a better estate, have peradventure just excuse of their long grief and sorrow: But we which do believe and teach the same, aught not to be sorry for those which die, to the end, that the same which towards other hath appearance of piety and compassion be in the greater fault. For that is a kind of distrust, against that that every one doth preach. And immediately after is alleged the example of jesus Christ, the example of Christ. john. 11. c. 13. who bewailed not the death of Lazarus, but bewailed him when he would raise him again, for to return unto the miseries of this world. hilarius, Certainly if we did well consider the evils which are in this miserable world, and the fragilytic and misery of man's nature, and if we had true saith to the Gospel of jesus Christ, and true hope of our resurrection, and of the eternal life, we should have more occasion to follow the custom of the Thracians, then of other Danims, and for a more just occasion, The custom of the Thracias herodet in Paler. Max. li. 2. ca 1 For if they, which had not a certain hope, nor assurance that there is an other life than this here, did bury their friends that were dead with joy & gladness, saying that they were berry glad that they were delivered from the evils and wickedness of of this life: And on the contrary, did weep and lament at the birth of their children, lamenting them because of the evils to the which they did: n●● coming into this world: Have not we more 〈◊〉 cause to rejoice, when that the Lord calleth us our friends, and draweth them from that dark prison, for to lodge them in his celestial Places? And to desire with the holy philip. l. d. 25. Apostle to be dissouled so? to be with Christ? If we will not follow the doctrine and examples of the holy Scriptures, at the leastwise let us not do worse than the paynim. And if we will follow them, let us follow the most reasonable, and not the most maddest. those of Mirsellea, in the time that they were yet paynim, we a great deal more modest and sober, and less superstitious and Idolaters in their burials, and about their dead, than those are now at this present time which do follow the papistical doctrine. For the ancient massilians did bury their dead The ancient custom of the Massilians. Val. Max. li. 2 cap. 1. without great sorrow and lamentation. The sorrow and mourning of their furenalls continued but one day, without adding too any other ceremony, but a domestical sacrifice, and in making a banquet, not for the Priests, but for their parents and friends. But now I warrant you that the Priests will not acquit them for the price. Behold what they have gained with the papistical doctrine: which hath less reason, than the costomes of their ancient predecessors, although that they were Idolaters. Wherefore it should seem unto them yet more honest, & a great deal more profitable, to bring again in use their ancient fashions & manners, then to follow the papistical manners. But amongst others they can not find better, nor more necessary to all Christians, then that which they had of late, to shut the gates of their town against all Hypocrites, Cagots' Stongeth full he lies under co. 1 lour of religion Caphards', & Seducers, who under the shadow & title of holy Religion would live idly, and eat and devour other men's substance without doing any thing. Their gate was not opened to such gluttons & belly gods, & they would not admit any Religion & new superstition. If the Christians had done so, the world not have been so spoiled and devoured by the Priests, Poonkes and caphards'. But for to return unto mourning: In the manner also Seneca hath written, that the ancient Romans The custom of the Romans. Senec. epist. 75. have not pressed, nor determined any certain time unto for to weep and lament, because it hath no honesty. for as the himself witnesseth, a wise man doth not afflict The office of a wise man. nor lament himself too much, when he loseth his children or his friends, but beareth their death with such a stomach and heart, as he would do his own. For that cause amongst others was Anaxagoras praised, who without any Cice. Tusc. 9 li. 1. trouble to himself, answered unto him which brought him tidings of the death of his sons: Thou tellest me of no new thing, nor a thing but that I ahue long looked for it: For I known very well that he whom I engendered was mortal. Thomas. When I do hear spoken of the constancy and modesty, that the paynim have showed in the death both of them and of their friends, I am greatly ashamed of us christians, who have so great fear, and do make such noise, and torment ourselves after the dead. Hillairus. Thereby we declare, that we are very The custom of: the 1. yeians. Val. Max. li. 2. ca 1. ignorant and effeminated. And therefore the Lycians did apparel them with womwnes' apparel, when they did mourn and lament, to the end that they should be moved thorough that deformity of apparel, and thereby constrained to cast down all that foolish sorrow. Declaring by the same, that they accounted it folly to lament Plut. in Lycur. The custom of the Lacedemetis. and weep. For that cause Lycurgus did not permit to the Lacedæmonians, but eleven days to mourn and lament in: and after at the twelve day, they must cast it down, after that they had made a sacrifice unto Ceres. Upon that matter ahth Plutarch written, that all things not accustomed nor used were applied unto those that did lament and mourn. And therefore the men went forth openly, The manner & fashion 〈…〉. 1. C ●●. 11 a 5. having their heads covered. the women uncovered and shorn, or altogether polled, against the order of nature, that being ashamed of such desormitie, they should be constrained she rather to moderate themselves, and the better to banqutsh and overcome their affections. And whereas the Romans prescribed a year full out The la of the Romans of the mourning of the widowees unto the women for to mourn, was not for to compel them to lament and mourn so long time, but to moderate and correct them, to the end they exceeded not measure. And therefore the widows did carry the signs of sorrowfulness, being appareled with black, and wearing white kerchiefs upon their heads, as the Papists do at this Pluto. in quest day. The which things Ovid hath comprised in a few bearses, speaking of the year ordained by Romulus, after this manner. When funerals were once fulfilleth Ovid. Fast. 1 the wise with ruthful cheer, His husband's death did wail the want, the space of one whole year. And the Poet Statius saith also. The women wear in their attire, Statius. the have of black and white: To represent the difference, betwixt the day and night. And it was not lawful for them to marry, before that those ten months were expired, except the had a dispensation of the Senate and Counsel, as we have used to take of the people. For Numa Pompilius of the same made The laww of Numa for the marriage of Widows. plut. in Vita Numa Anto. Fan. in Fast. 1 a law, the which did condemn the widow, which married before that the term and lawful time was accomplished, to sacrifice a Cow with calf. Not that he esteemed that it was a sin worthy of great punishment, in marrying her before that term, but had regard to the honesty, for two causes. The first was, because that it was not honest for the woman but very much contrary unto the shamefastness and natural modesty, which ought to be in her, to mary again so soon, and before that the feet of her first husband, (as the common Proverb is) be thoroughly cold. The other cause is for to conserve and keep the lineage and generations, without mingling them and destroying the seeds. For it may so chance, that the woman shallbe with chilce by her first husband and she shall not know it so soon. Nevertheless Disponsation of marriage. Antbony Octavian. when there is any person of great calling the Senate and Counsel would dispense with him, as it appeareth at the marriages of Anthony and Octavia, who by the authority of the same were allowed, notwithstanding that Octavia did mourn for C. Marcellus. Theophilus. It is most certain, that it lieth not in man's C. Marcellus power to make a law which is repugnant and against that which the Lord hath said by his Apostle. He that what the laws aught to be of marriage. 1. Cor. 7. b. 9 cannot abstain let him marry, to the end that none do put any snare about the neck of any man, & put his soul in danger. Therefore saith he, it is better to marry then to burn. For that cause let us not make a law, for to bind any man, and to take from him his liberty in such things, but let us leave y● unto every one's discretion, following the customs most allowable. Yet nevertheless it is requisite, whatsoever infirmity of the flesh that one can allege, that one have always reason of honesty and Christian modesty. For that cause friend Eusebius have we propounded unto thee so many examples and sentences, both of the holy scriptures & of ancient Doctors, and also of the paynim, to that end that thou mayst the more clearly know what hath been the custom of the ancient Israelites and of the paynim, and of the first Christians also: what hath been their mourning, what days they have dedicated for the same, & for the dead: and for what cause, and how the ancient Doctors have written, and to what intent: and how much the Christian religion hath degenerated from his ancient purity, insomuch that it is not worthy to compare them in such things, I say not unto the ancient jews, but unto the paynim themselves which have had some judgement & honesty. And yet nevertheless S. Jerome doth desire that the christians should be yet more sober S. Jerome. Tomb. 6. The mourning of the ancient Isr. jelytes. in such things then the ancient Israelites, whose manner of doing he praised not greatly, which they have used towards the dead: But he excuseth them because that they had not yet received so amply the light and knowledge, nor the accomplything of the promises of God so amply & so excellently as we. Wherefore he would that we should be a great deal more moderate, and that we should declare more lively the hope that we have of the resurrection. But if we can do no better nor be more perfect than they, let us not be at the lest more imperfect, and let us not do worse, after the manner of the Papists who are mroe to be rebuked in those things, than any people that ever was upon the earth. Wherefore it were better (friend Eusebius,) that we should reduce ourselves to the imitation of the Apostolical Church, then to continued always in our folly and madness, under the colour of a word or two that we find either in Ambrose, or in some other ancient doctor for want of well understanding them. And it shallbe a great deal more convenient and meeter Example of David. 2. Reg. 12. d. 15. for us to follow the example of David, who mourned & lamented for his child all the while that he was sick, and whilst that he was yet alive, & not after that he was dead. For which all those of his house were much abashed. For whilst that the child was yet sick, and that he had some hope of life, he watched, fasted and prayed, making request unto God for the child, and did lie flat on the earth, and during the space of seven days all those of his house, not not his ancients and counsellors could not make him to lie on a bed, nor to arise up from the earth, nor to eat nor drink with them, until such time he understood that the child was dead, the which thing none of his servants dared tell him off, thinking that he would have been mernaylously sad and pensise, after that he should be advertised of his death, sith that all the time of his sickness whilst that there was yet some hope of life, he always wept and lamented. But it happened clean contrary. For as soon as he knew for a certeynetie that the child was dead, he arose from the earth, and washed and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and went into the house of the Lord, and prayed, and after came to his own house, and bad that they should set meat before him and he did eat: And made greater cheer than before, whereof his servants were much abashed, and asked him what is this that thou hast done? unto whom he answered: while the child was a live, I fasted and wept. For I thus thought: who can tell whether God will have mercy on me, that the child may live? But now seeing it is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him again any more? I shall go to him, but he shall not come again to me. David teacheth Mourning for the living and sick. us a good lesson, and learneth us to pray the one for the other, while we be in this life, and to make prayers unto God, and to lament and mourn for our brethren and neighbours, whilst they are alive, whether they be in health or sick, prosperity or adversity, and not after they be dead. For whilst that they be sick, we aught to pray for them, that it would please God to pardon their sins, and ours: to give unto them health, and to suffer them a while to be with us, and comfort us, & to serve moreover unto his church, if he know that the same is most expedient for the glory of his name, and our profit. For whilst that man is sick, we know not certainly, what God means to be with him. We know very well that his will cannot be but good, & that he will dispose all things to the best: But we cannot know particularly, without a singular revelation, whether that it be better that the sick person do live or dye, both for him and for us. Wherefore we aught to pray and weep for him whilst that we can aid and help him, and that he is yet alive with us, in the which we have place to repent. & to obtain pardon for our sins: and we aught chiesly to bewail the poor 〈…〉 sinners, whom we see to go to perdition, as Samuel bewept Saul seeing him forsaken of God: And Saint Paul the Corinthians, whom he law to be detained and kept in 1. Reg. 15. s. 26 2. Cor. 12. g. 21 Hie●in comment in Mat. 5. c. 11. sins, if it would please God to have mercy upon them. But sith that God hath once declared unto us his will, we must hold ourselves unto the same, and to take no more care for those whom God hath called unto himself from among us, but we aught only to advise and sludie how we should dispose and order ourselves for to follow them, after the example of David. Whereunto agreeth very well the doctrine of Daynct james, who admonusheth the faithful The visitation of the sick jam. 5. c. 14. if any of them be diseased to call unto them the true Priests of the Gospel and Elders of the congregation, for to comfort them with the word of God, and for to pray for them, that they may have the forgiveness of their sins, and to comfort and procure all that they can for the health of their bodies and souls, and for their health, and thorough prayers and ointments and other like things, which God hath given unto the primitive Church, the which hath received The guilt do miracles in the primitive church. A anointing with oil. Marc. 6. b. 13 the gift to do miracles, and in the which the Apostles did miraculously heal the diseased. Anointing them with oil, not after the manner as the Papistical Priests do, which do anoint the diseased, not thorough the hope that they have to heal them. For if they did think that they should heal them, they would not anoint them. hilarius. They would not do so. For they should lose much nor they should have so many fat hides. Theophilus. For that same cause they call that unction extreme, and the last sacrament: And they give it not for Extreme uncsion the health of the body nor for to heal the diseased, as the Apostles did, nor to that intent as Saint james hath written, but did give it for the health of the soul, as though their holy oil could penetrate in the same, and that the holy Ghost and forgiveness of sins wertied unto the oil. I know not whereto the unction can serve for the poor diseased, such as the do use, sith that they have no promises of god. & that the gift of miracles is not given unto them as unto the Apostles, & to that primitive church: & they do none other thing but read the Psalter & babble it in a strange language unto the sick person, of which he receiveth no instruction, nor any The saying of the Psalter. The use of extreme unction. The Apes of the Apost● 3 consolation at all. hilarius. If thou know not whereto that unction serveth, I will tell thee. First, that is a witness for to prove that in that same they are the Apes of the Apostles, for to counterfeit their works and miracles, as they counterfeited those of jesus Christ in the Baptisine of young children. Afterwards it serveth unto the diseased, for to make them hope to be healed, as the coming of the hangman unto the thieves, when they do see him. For they know right well that he is the messenger of death So when the poor patients seeing the Priests coming with their Cream bores, Dyle and Drogues, they may well think that men account them for dead, and their time is come. For such Physicians have not accustomed to come, nor to bring their treacle, but at the very hour that the sick person is abandoned and forsaken of other Physicians. They may judge that their hangman is come, who careth nor for the soul, but requireth only the body and the spoiling thereoff. Theophilus. There is nothing truer. Wherefore they cannot allege Saint james for their defence, nor also the ancient doctors whom they would take for bucklers for all their matters. They make a great account of Denis, who hath written the celestial The author of the celestial ●●. d ecclesiastical Hieratch12 Act. 17. eccle hist. li. ●. ca 4. li. 4. ca 21. 22. 23 Eccle bier. ● 7 Denis. Areopagite. and ecclesiastical Hierarchies, saying that that is saint Denis of Athens, who was converted by the preaching of Saint Paul, which is not like to be true. For the stile of those books, sinelleth not like unto that of the Apostles, nor of their tyme. Furthermore Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history maketh mention so diligently of the books of Denis Bishop of Corinth, and never maketh any mention of those of Denis Areopagite. Wherefore it is most likest to be true, that he hath written nothing: or else Eusebius would not have held his peace more than of the others. But although he should have written those books, yet he did sufficiently declare by them that at the time as those were written, there was not such extreme unction as there is at this present. He maketh mention that the Christians used of custom to anoint the faithful in the baptism, in witness that they did arm themselves for to fight, and the dead in like manner, when one buryeth them, in sign and taken, that they have valyauntly fought, and that they have got and obtained the victory, and are go to rest. But he speaketh not a word of the anointing of the sick and diseased, the which with much ado he would have omitted, without touching and expressing it, aswell as he hath done the cream of the baptism. And although it should be so, that that which the Priests do, should have some certain foundation in the doctrine of Saint james, yet they cannot deny, but that that place bathe great colour, for to condemn that which they do about the dead. For they have not much red in all the holy Sacripture, which hath more appearance at the first sight, for to colour their ceremonies, & new sacraments, which they have invented without the ordinance of jesus Christ, than that place bath, for to give light unto their extreme unction, and those muttering and mumbling of the Psalter which they do make about the sick people, And yet nevertheless there is not one only syllable upon which they can stay or take hold for to ground and allow the lest of the ceremonies and superstitions which they commit about the dead. hilarius. It is nevertheless much to be marveled at, that if there had been in their case any imitation of the traditions of the Apostles, and of the primative Church, but that Saint james would have touched some word, sith that he hath already taken in hand the matter of the sick and diseased, and that occasion also did suffer to speak of the dead, and to teach how the Christians & the Ministers of the Church aught to behave themsolues, if such things were necessary, which sithence the time of the Apostles have been brought into the Church of God. Theophilus. Thy reason is not evil. Wherefore me thinketh (friend Eusebius that thou mayst now understand that that place of Saint Ambrose, and the other reasons which thou hast put forth for to prove thy intentien, & to confirm thy matter, conserve serve thee nothing at all, for to allow that which now in such a case is dene in your Churches: But rather to condemn and reprove them. For you yourself follow not the example of the Israelites propounded by Saint Ambrose, and your Decrees and Canons, nor you are not contented with the dayed which are there specified, nor with the manner described in them, for to celebrated the commemoration of the dead, but do add to it many other things of which you cannot allege any example to be on your side, neither in the old nor new Testament, nor of the ancient people of Israel, nor also of the first Christians, but of the paynim and Idolaters, whom you do follow, keeping almost the very same days that they for the same have choose, and with the like superstition as they. Wherefore I am abashed of Durand, who expounding the mysteries and secrets contained in the number of those days, Rat. diui. off. l●. 7. Rub. de off. mort Nensuain●● hath written among other things that some Christians have also choose the ninth day, for to make the Dbsequys and commemoratien of the dead: or have used of custom to offer nine days together for them, that their souls should be delivered from pains, and joined and kiut together unto the nine order of the Angels. But he addeth that the same was not allowed of some, fearing lest it should seem that the Christians were unitators and followers of the paynim and Gentiles, who had that same day dedicated unto the obsequys & commemoration of their dead, as already hath been touched. hilarius. Duer and besides the witness of all the Poets and chiefly of Virg. Aene. 5. Hota. in Epod. ●ice ad Quint Pra. li. 3. Livi ●. ab. v●be Et. ●. bell. ●um. Virgile, who described that anniversary that Aeneas made for his father Anchises, & the sacrifices & plays that they celebrated in the ninth day of the same, we have all the histories which are o● credit, namely Titus Livius, who in many places, maketh mention of those Nensnaines and nine days, which they do call Novendium & Novendiale. Theophilus. But wherefore was the customs of that Christians more to be rebuked, which do celebrated the ninth day & the Nensuaines in the honour of that dead, than either which do celebrated that seventh day, thirty, forty, a hundredth, or other like days? For if the thing be good in one day, how can it be evil in the other? doth the number add or give any more greater holiness to one of the days more than to an other. And if the thing be nothing worth to one of the days, what privilege have the other for to make it better? Eusebius. Wherefore do you demand the cause, sith that it hath been already alleged by thy own self, reciting the words of Durand? Do you think that that cause aught to suffice, lest it should not seem that the Christians do follow that paynim, & allow their manner or doings? Hilla. Truly you look well to your business, & have well provided for your affairs. Me thinketh that that devil, who hath been that author of your superstitions & idolatries, in very deed hath been a great Louldave, & of a slougthful spirit, if he had any judgement in men with whom he had to do, & if god by his just judgement had not taken from them their sense & understanding. For what mask hath he taken for to disguise himself withal to change one day into an other? what difference is there, if you do that same things. which were used among the paynim, saving that you do change the day? Which is best, either to blaspheme God the third, seventh, thirty and forty day, or the fourth, ninth, tenth, or fiftle? Can one dishonour and blaspheme him more honestly in the one of those days then in the other. What do I care what day you take, if you commit the same faults? As touching the days, you have Imitation of the Iewes & paynim. choose those same of the jews. As touching the superstition, you do follow the same of the paynim: & desiring to show that you are neither jew nor Panim, you declare, that you are less christians: but that you have a sect & a new law like unto that of Mahomet, who have not followed altogether The Imitation of Mahonus. neither that of the jews, & paynim, nor yet that of the Christians: But made one, taking out of all those together that it pleased him, and hath made a pottage, mingled with all sauces, and corrupted with all poisons, which do in such sort waste all that that may be good, that there remaineth nothing, but the vile venom of all errors & heresies. I know not unto what I may compare more preperly your traditions, then unto those of that false prophet: nor I do not well know, what difference may be the greater between those, except peradventure I should say that in yours there is more of the imitation of the paynim, and that your Rome and her laws, is always the ancient Rome, and the laws that she had before the revelation The old and new Rome. of the Gospel. The which thing I will show unto thee at the first sight, by a goodly discourse, the better to vanquish and overcome thee, sith that thou will't not be contented with that which already hath been sufficiently proved unto thee: not that I have determined to rehearse all your ceremonies and traditions. For I had rather to number and tell all the sand of the Sea and to draw out all the water from the same: But I will content myself at this tune, with the conference of Mortuaryes, and with that which belongeth unto them, which have been among the paynim, the which you have kept, and the things which have some affinity with them. Then I demand of thee first of all, if Durand did find anything to say unto the Christians, which did celebrated the Nensuaines, because of the affinity that they seemed to have with the paynim: Wherefore then do you allow anniversaries. those which do celebrated the anniversaries of the dead? For the same never had other for his first authors than the paynim, as I will prove unto thee by and by, by their Theologians. Thou art not contented with that which Theophilus hath answered thee in, that since the time of Pope Pelagius and Gregory, those manner The beginning of the feasts and anniversaries for the dead. Pluto. Cal. lecsant. li. 17. ca 2 doings have taken great force, and have been much augmented among the Christians, and thou dost no wrong: For they are a great deal more auneyent, yea, and invented long before the time of the Apostles, if we will believe Diodorus, who affirmeth Pluto, to have been the author & inventor of them, and of the funeral ceremonies, as I have already told thee before. After whom came Aeneas, who in the honour of his Aeneas. Anchises. Father Anchises, ordained and made anniversaries and yearly feasts, and sacrifices for the dead, as the ancient histories do witness, whom the Poets have followed, who do describe those things very amply, and chieslye Virgile, who bringeth in Aeneas speaking unto his compaignions' in this manner. You mighty Trojans, from the blood of great Gods that descend, Virg. Aene. 5 This time is come about, a perfect year is now at end, Since when my father Anchisos blessed bones were put in ground And mourning altars for his holy relics we did found. And now the day (if I do not mistake) approacheth near, That unto me, shall ever doleful be, and ever dear. Since Gods hath pleased so: If I this day were cast a land, Among the savage Moors, or on the shotes of Syrtes sand. Or eaught on Greekish seas, or in Mycena town a●slaue, Yet pay my yearly vows I would, with pomp of duties brave, And gifts in feastful guise, on altars large I would advance, Now here in haven we be, among our friends, not by no chance, But by the Gods (I trust) of purpose wrought, and for the nonce, To worship here my father's blessed dust, and precious bones. Come on therefore, let every man set forth these honours pure, With mirth on every side, that of good winds we may be sure, And as I yearly now these offering days to him do make, So when my City builded is, in Temples he shall take. Now following the vow that Aeneas made here, Ovid Ovid, Fast. 2 also witnesseth how that manner of doing, by him was carried into Italy, saying. Aeneas, the first deviser was, of all true godliness, Which order brought to Italian land as stories do express: That yearly gifts for father's souls, to Temple should be brought. From him the people learned had, new customs never taught. After Aeneas came Romulus, who did follow his example, Romul. Remus. Lemuria. Plut. in Rom. The feasts of the dead in May. and hath also ordained a feast, called Lemuria, or Remuria, & an anniversary in the month of May, for his brother Remus and others that be dead, as many historiographers do witness, & Ovid vescribeth after in this sort, saying: The order was of sacrifice, ovid. Fast. 5. on days Remuria height, For silly souls that were in pain to sing a Ditge at night. The year than was not full so long for Februa feasts were none, Nor janus guider of the months With double shape was known: Yet after by and by they brought offerings for souls to have, And nephews sacrifices made for graunsires' laid in grave. And by and by afterwards saith: Romulus that day Remuria height that sacrifice for sin, For grandsires souls from body past was offered first by him. Now Numa the successor of Romulus, not being contented with that which hath been already instituted by Numa. his predecessors, amongst other ceremonies that he gave unto the ●emishe people, be hath yet added unto the Feasts for the dead in February Lupercaies Plat. in Rom. ovid. Fast. 2 The signth●ati. first an other feast for the dead in the month of February which he celebrated yearly, and continued eleune days, that which Romulus, in instituting the feast of Lupercales hath already somewhat begun. For that on of February Consorius Plutarch Sex. Pomp. cause was that month called, February, the which Num● hath added with january, to the year of Romulus which was not but ten months, & keepeth yet the name. For February sigmfieth as much in Latin, as purgation or Purgatory. And therefore the name was given unto that second month, because of the feasts and sacrifices which were celebrated, as well for the purgation of the souls, as for, the purification of the City & all the country: to the which thing all that month was dedicated: the which Ovid hath all comprised in these verses, saying: The Roman fathers Februa height, a sacrifice for sin, Fast. 2. And to the word doth crodue give, as doth consist therein: And whatsoever is prepared, by any means they may, Is for to purge our bodies so, that sin rest not nor stay. February. In time therefore of Father's old, whieh sheared not their hair That month than took his name thereof, as it shall hear appear. At what time that the Lupersales, with sin be rend and torn Did purne the earth from filthy sin that then was all forlorn. Or else because those times be pure, that dead appeased be When offering days be go and passed, as that time they did see. Theophilus. Friend Eusebius, if you are not contented with the authority of Ovid, yet I think at the leastwise you will not relect that same of Saint Augustine, who in his books of the City of God, speaking August. de civi Des. li. 7. c. 7 of that same matter confirmeth that which Ovid hath written, alleging his●owne verses, and says among other things. In that month was made the holy Purgatory, Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant February which they call Februm. He understandeth by the same that the paynim did make in that time, their holy and sacred sacrifices of purgation, as we would say no we at this day the Purgatory, or purgatine Mass. hilarius. Besides those general feasts and which were common to all the dead, according to the viversitie of the countries & nations, & as the case requireth & the person which died, they had other feasts & Annirersaries more particular either for one, or for many, as the Greeks had a custom The obseqnies of the Greeks in September. to celebrated the xbjs: day of the month of September, the Dbsequys & anniversaries of those which died in the war, fight against the Persinns, as witnesseth Plutarch: Plat. in Aristide anniversaries in Nonember. Plut. in Marce lo. forum boar●um. Cice. pro Flaccs & li. 2. de legs Livi 4. bell puns Casa. li. 7. bell. gall. Also he witnesseth the at Rome they did the like in the month of November, for the Gaulois, Frechmen & Greeks, which have been buried in the place which was called the Bullock market. And Gicero & Titus Livius do offentimes make inention of such feast days of the paynim and good deeds. Theophilus. He hath learned by those things, even as we do see daily the lilte practise in our Popes & prelate's of the Church, who have always added ceremonies upon ceremonies: superstition upon superstition, & Idolatry upon Idolatry, & have daily augmented them, sith that they are once begun, insomuch that it is not possible that they can proceed any further. For we do surmount & exceed already long since, all the ancient Idolaters in Idolatry. Wherefore we have better occasion to complain, than S. Augustine had in his time, which differed much from ours: And The complaint of S. Augustine Epist. ad lannu artus. 119 yet nevertheless he did greatly complain of the multitude of ceremonies and superstitions with which already the Church was then overcharged & corrupted. Therefore said he, our Lord jesus Christ willing to give unto his church a great liberty: would not make it to be, subject unto many ceremonies, but only unto a little certain number of sacraments: And yet nevertheless it is now so much charged, The charge of ceremonies. that the condition of the jews who were under the shadows and figures, and the servitude and bondage of the law, is more tolerable than ours, and chiefly in that that the ceremonies which they had, were given unto them of God, but those which have been brought into the Cstristtan Church, are nothing else but man's presumptions & inventions of presumptuous and overbold men. hilarius. Truly he should have now other occasion to writ the same, if he did see the train that the Papists do hold: as well towards the quick as towards the dead: we may assuredly affirm that Pluto was no less the author of the Dbsequys, Funerals, Dbites, Legates, anniversaries The Pluto of the christians. and other like things, which are at this day used among the Christians, as among the paynim. For Pluto is the God of riches. And what hath been the first cause, and first foundation of all these things, and of Purgaforye, and of those dependaunces, and the occasion of so much augmenting & increasing of them, but the insatiable avarice & covetousness of the great Romish Pluto, & of his Mercuries, & other like Gods, which are joined with The office of Mercury, him? For if we by just occasion, do call him Pluto, we have no less occasion to compare both him & his unto Mercury, Cal. Rho. lect. Ant. li. 18. ●. 6 whose office is among the Gods, to lead & bring the souls in those Plutonical & infernal regions & kingdoms, after that they be separated from the body, He hath to do now in heaven, now in the earth, and by & by in hell. The which thing was one of the causes, wherefore the paynim did paint his picture & Image, having three heads. In steed whereof our Pluto, hath his three crowns, for to declare Mercury hath three heads Tyrephalos. The three Popish crowries Hecate trivia & trifortmis. that he hath power in heaven, earth & hell, and that he holdeth the place of Hecate, unto whom the Idolaters do attribute three forms, and such a power: the which the Pope doth attribute unto himself altogether. For he is mounted and ascended into such arrogancy and pride, that he dare take upon him to command the Angels and the The Pope's power. Virg. Aene. 6. Orpheus & Eurydice. Castor & Pollux. Theseus & Pirothus Hercules. The harp of Orpheus and that of & Pope devils, and to stretch forth his hand even to the hells, for to pull from thence the souls, and those which are thither descended, but it is after that sort as Orpheus went to seek his wife Eurydice, Pollux his brother Castor: The● seus and Pyrothus who ravished Proserpina: Doctor as Hercules descended thither, for to bring away Cerberus. For I doubt not, but that these poetical fables do contain as much truth, as that which that Pope would make us to believe. And I believe that his Musicians & Singers have no more tertue, than the Harp of Orpheus for to draw the souls from Purgatory: But he hath a Harp upon which he playeth better, than ever Orpheus did, For by the means of the same, he eateheth every thing, & nothing escapeth him, but that he bringeth all things under his wing, Wherefore we may rightly attribute unto him three heads, as unto Mercury Geryo● & Cerberus, & three bodies, as unto Geryon, sith that he hath such credit with the celestial & infernal gods, that he commandeth yt. Angels of heaven, that they bring unto the joys of paradise, the soul of him who for his pardons goeth to Rome, & that he be delivered from Purgatory. And he saith yet moreover, we will not, that the pain of hell be any thing at all enjoined unto such a person. And it is not sufficient for him to usurps such authority & signory upon hyn, but he doth also give that power unto those which do receive his Cromade, ●o deliver from Purgatory three or four souls, yea, such as they will themselves. The bull of Glement. Thomas. Is it possible that he is so shameless & overbold? hilarius: The Bull of Pope Clement may bear witness of it, the which is kept yet at this day well sealed with seals of lead at Vienna, Lymoges, Poitiers, & in the coffers of that privileges. It is very true that the Sorbonnists of Paris would not allow it, but condemned it. But yet nevertheless it must needs be that it must pass by their hands. He hath also a great many other proverties in him, for the which one may compare both him & his unto Mercury, who was in Other offices of Mercury Rhod. lectant. li. 16. ca 19 The Image of Mercury like manner held & accounted of the paynim, for the God of gain, of merchants, deceivers, hers & thieves. And therefore they painted him with a serip, did set his Image in the middle of the market, & before the gates of the houses, for to keep them, & for to drive away the other thieves: because that he was the greatest, & Prince of others. For did the earth bring forth ever such deceivers, abusers, and liars, such merchants, and more covetous of filthy gain? They may well carry the scri●. For that is the cabin from The scrip of Mercury which do come forth all these laws, canons & decrees, for to yet the money both of the living and also of the dead. And he carrieth not the key without a cause, for to open and shut the gates, and to empty the coffers and scrippes, and to take away the pray from other thieves, of whom he is the captain. At the leastwise, none can denfe, but that the doctrine of the paynim, as much as concerneth the dead; is more reasonable than that of the Papists. For although that the Theologians of the A little cost about the dead. Pamins, do allow the Ceremonies, Feasts, and anniversaries of the dead, yet nevertheless they do also teach, that it is not now needful to bestow any great cost about them, but that they content themselves with a little thing, even as Ovid the master of ceremonies, witnesseth ovid. Fast. 2, in his Calendar, in these words. It is an honour dew to souls and bodies that be dead To bring such gifts to yerksome grave, as satisfy their mead. The souls do much delight therein and much the same doth crave, By means whereof themselves they think, from Pluto's force: to save. With flowers green and garlands gay, their heads they do adorn: And wine and salt is put thereto with other fruits and corn. Nor things of more weight I reprove For souls therein delight, On grave say thou thy prayers then, that ghosts may have their right. Whereunto agreeth also the Dracle of Apollo, speaking The Oracle of Apollo. of the sacrifices of the infernal Gods, and of the souls, in these words. The Gods which with their bodies black, about the world do fly, Which also daily sacrifice, require incessauntly, jucense of Meal and salted fruits, and also pleasant Cakes, See that you make together mixed, as dainty delicates. For that cause they used in, that time there, to set The banquet and supper of the dead. such meats upon a. stpue●to the cud that the good scules and shadows should come and banquet there, & they called that banquet and supper, that they made for them Silicernium, Silyeernium. because that the shadows and the souls behold it in stlence. They do also call it Feralis Coena, as we Feralis e●na may say the supper of the dead: of which speaketh Juvenal, confirming the things above spoken, after this manner. In platters small, the suppers they do put. 〈◊〉. sally. 5 ●o● bodies dead, in loathsome grave laid up. And in like manner Persius, speaking of him which consumed Pers. Saty. 6 his goods foolishly: The heir with wrathful ire doth pine to see thy goods so spent, Nor funeral feasts esteem will he not made to his intent. I do think that Baruch did understand by such suppers, Baruch. 6. e. 30. that which is written in his book, of the Priests of the babylonians and Idolaters, saying: The Priests sit in their temples, having open clotheses, whose beads and beards are shaven, and have nothing upon their beads: roaring and crying upon their Gods, as men do at the feast, when one is dead. He showeth in sew words, the manner that the Idolaters had, both in their divine service for the Gods, and the office of the dead. hilarius. And what had they that we have not? do not our Priests roar and cry both after their Gods and after the dead? may we not rightly call their Masses of Requiem, the supper of the dead? For they have all that which Baruch hath comprehended, without failing one hair of one's head. It may have peradventure some differ●ce in that that the Mass is song in the morning. Wherefore it should soeme more fit, to call it, the draft of wine, or the breakfast or dinner of the dead? Thomas. That which thou hast spoken to cover the able to the d●●●, is used yet at this day of some, who at the fence that is made when one is dead, do leave all night the Table covered and set full The table covered for the souls. of meats, being of that opinion that the souls do come thither to banquet. Theophilus. Master john Belet witnesseth nevertheless M. john Belet. Rat. dius. off. 1●. 7. Rub. de cath. 5. Pet. The feast of S. Peter's chair. in his book that he made of the Legend of Saints, and feasts of all the year, that the ancients have ordained the feast of Saint Peter's chair in February, upon such a day as the Panyms accustomed to offer yearly, Wine, and other meats upon the sepulchres of the dead, and to banquet them, thinking that the souls and shadows which passed by the sepulchres, would come & eat. Wherefore to abolish that superstitious & witked custom, they have constituted that that feast should be celebrated, the which for that cause was called at the beginning, the feast of Saint Peter of meats & banquets. hilarius. And what have they gained by changing it? The poor Christian people have no profit by it, and there is no gain but for the Priests, which instead thereof, have at this day their stones & altars, upon which they do lay their table clotheses, and afterwards when the table is spread and covered, we must take care for the meats, and pay the banquet, and yet nevertheless we eat nothing at all, but are as the paynim, which bring the supper to the dead, afterwards they only look on them, not daring to touch it, which was also the one of the causes, wherefore that banquet was called Silicernium, as witnesseth Donatus. For they did think, that whosoever did taste, eat or drink of that which was offered unto the Donat in Adelph Terent. dead, was polluted and defiled. But our priests fear not that For they themselves do eat with they? domestical he Nymphs A the Priests & of the paynim Nymphs, which bevoure and consume with them, the relief which remained for that souls. For such Nymphs, do take no less pleasure in sweet & deheate meats, than those of the paynim, who would that one should offer unto them wine and ●ony, as witnessoth the Oracle of Apollorsaying: The Nymphs are glad and make good fare The Oracle of Apollo. with honey and wine, which pleasant are. In steed of them we have those paliards & whorehunters unto whom we must offer under the title and name of the Souls, who endeavour themselves so well, that nothing of the offerings remains, although that that shadows and souls diminish them nothing at al. For they have not very great bellies: except peradventure there be dronkerds, like unto those of the bawd, unto when Propeise giveth the Requiescant in pace, saying. Properse. Requise ●● in pace of the bawd. Thou slinking bawd and filthy whore, & strumpet all forlornt, Thy loathsome Tomb is over groan with sharp & pricking thorn Thy ghost ' is dry, & fore a thirst, & so will still remain Against thy will it must be so, why should I to thee sane. Thomas, Yet nevertheless a man shall find shadows which do eat very well, and which have good teeth & great bellies. hilarius. If thou do take the shadows for those Shalowes having teeth and bellies. which come unto the banquets, not being bid with those which are the gests, I grant unto thee, that such shadows have not the taste in the teeth, nor live not of the dew, as the Grasshoppers: or of the wind as the Chameleon. But the shadows of which I speak, are of another nature. The ancients called those whom thou speakest Cigales. Chameleon. 〈◊〉 1 cent. 1. off, shadows, because that they follow and accompany those that are bidden, as the shatowe solloweth and accompanieth the body, and under colour of them, all though that they be not called by him that maketh the banquet, do keep nevertheless company with the gests, & sit at the table with them. After that sort did Plutarch The shadows of the dead. Ving. Aene. 6. Phn. li. 7 ca 55 expound it, and Horace among the Latius hath often used it. For when such shadows are at the table, they do effectually show that they are not vain & empty shadows, but of bodies altogether fat & massy. But when the ancients do speak of the shadows of those that be dead, they understand not properly their souls, but their visions and fantafficall figures, which do watch about the sepulchres, Trang. in talig Cice. Tusc. ●. li. ● and do show themselves as shadows, in the form and likeness of bodies, which yet nevertheless were not, & vanished away when 〈◊〉 did come nigh them, and when one did think to tonche them, as a shadow and smoke. Thomas. I do verily believe that those do not much diminish the meats. Eusebius. Also one may well know, that there is now none so foolish that doth think that the souls do eat the offerings: But we do carry them at their feast days, for to nourish the servants of God, thorough whose prayers, & by reason of the Masses & good deeds that they do upon such days for them, they have deliverance and rest. hilarius, That is the cause wherefore their Bing pluto, & Neoptolemus, Aeacus, Minos & Radamantus, that criminal judges of the Infernal court, and of those Plutonicall Regions, do open unto them the charters & prisons of Purgatory, & do give unto them field plays and pastimes and leave to play a little, as the School masters The plays and pastimes for the souls. do give unto their scholars, for to take some recreation & pastime, even as Mantuan witnesseth saying. As oft as men their Sacrifice Mantua. li. 3. Alphonsi. By alms or seasts do make: Or else by prayers they do think. the needies thirst to slake, To bellies rage and pampered flesh a bridle they do set, And to the gods they do pour out their prayers from heart yfet. By means whereof, the furious rage of windy force is laid For gods thereto agreed hath which makes them well apaid. By use whereof and gods good grace they have both mirth and joy. And save them from the hellish rage that doth their soul's annoy. It were good reason that they should have at the lest The days of Aristotle. once or twice in the year, some good Aristotolicall days for to delight and refresh themselves and for to bring them out of these hot and burning furnaces. I pray thee think what joy they do make, when that they feel & perceive their feast to draw nigh, in which they look to have some liberty and to find some little grace and favour of their king Pluto, by whom I mean him of whom the French Poet hath written after this manner, in his hell. It is the holy name of Pope, that hellish hounds embrace, And with his stole can cull them in, & win them to his grace, But fearest thou not, that monster great, that doth affirm & say, That hell to ope and also shut, he both them can and may, Yea he it is, by scorching heat, that martyr can the souls And thousand thousands rid he can from heat of parching coals. I think that then he holdeth his keys in the right hand The merry conceits and jests of a holy father for to let lose a little these poor souls, that they should laugh and be merry, if that be true which a holy father preached at Bourdeaux, saying and affirming, that when one offereth for the dead, and that the souls do hear the sound of the money which falls thing, ting, in the basin, or the bore prepared to receive the offering, they receive so great joy, and do begin somuch to laugh, that they do make a noise, ha', ha', ha', high, high, hi. What will't thou more? should one spoil and rob them of their laughing? The laughing of the souls Thomas. And did that holy father laugh, so in the pulpit? hilarius, Thou dost well know that the play had been nothing worth otherwise and it behoveth that a good player of jests and games, do reprcsente and make all the lestures and parts of the parsonnes whose part he playeth. And will't thou know whether he spoke it in earnest or not? I believe that he did swear that it was so, by his breast, by the faith of his Pricsthoode: and by the Mass he sung this day, and the God that he had eaten. But for to return unto the banquets of the souls: how much dost thou think that they have spent? I think that they do less burte unto those meats, than the flies, and that they do but lich a little upon it. Wherefore one cannot perceive the cost, for to reckon to them their shot: Nevertheless although that accoroing to the Theology of Ovid, they are contented with a little, yet they are notwithstanding marvelously sorrowful and angry, and do rage out of measure when The puni●hmet for the dtspising of the souls Fast. 2. one forgetteth them without making any account, & doing his duty towards them, and do avenge themselves rigorously as the Theologyan before alleged witnesseth, speaking of that matter, and of their feast, saying: When doubtful chaunco of victory, with foes in field was tried, Then sunerals for parents' souls, was laid clean aside, And though that flames for corpses dead, did heat the walls of Rome Yet seapt they not unpunished, by just and rightful doom, He means by the same that they were strooken with so terrible diseases, and so great mortality, that every day men ceased not to make great fires in the suburbs of the City, for to burn the bodies of those which daily died to a great number. Thomas. But how have the Romans imagined, that their evil proceeded thereby? For they had a certain excuse, because of the great affairs that they had. hilarius. Dur Doctor before alleged, expoundeth also the manner how the same came unto their knowledge, saying. Fast. 2. Souls & man. dring shadows The grandfathers reported are, by night from Tomb to come And in those times do much bewail, the wrongs unto them done. For sacrifice not for them made their souls by streets do glide. And through fields and deserts great, in woeful dole do slide. They learned to their cost, not to despise and forget any more the souls, & they did set such good order, that they never afterwaids tt, eir realt and solemuitie was forgotten and onlitted, without being ducly celebrated, as it aught to be according to the ancient manner. Thomas. And did that profit them any thing all all? hilarius. Mark the answer and witness of the same Doctor, saying. But after sacrifices done that did surcease of yore These monstrous shapes and mortal plagues afflicted them no more. Who will devy but that Ovid was a true Prophet of the Popes? who hath prefigured and described in his feasts and Calendar, the feasts and popish Religion. so well in every point, that there is no more to be spoken of it? for what other thing is the popish Religion, than the Fast. 2. Ovid the pope's Propact. contmucation and maintenance of the ancient Rome? the which this man here hath succeeded, observed and kept all in all. Theophilus. He hath hit the nail on the head. Wherefore The Calendar of Ovid The Romish to lygion old & new you do no wrong friend Eusebius, in saying that you would live as your predecessors: For those old Idolatrous Romans are your true predecessors, sith that you will follow them, & not that Prophets & Apostles of jesus Christ: And even as those fictions, appearing of spirits & Predecessors of the Papilt. shadows; served among the Panyins but for to nourish, keep and confirm the Idolatry? even so is it at this V Vhereunto that appearing of sdirits protend. day among the Papists. In steed that that Romans aught to acknowledge & confelse that God punished them, because of their abominable Idolatry, msatlable avarice, stelthes violences, murders & shedding of man's blood, which was shed by them thorough out the universal world, they have rather presumed & thought, that those evils. happened unto thee, because that they had not wei done their duty towards that souls of that dead, that is to save, because that they had not well served & honoured that devil as he would be: unto whom they did make those sacrifices, not unto God, sith that of him they had not received commandment, nor such laws & ordinances. hilarius At that least, friend Eusebius you can not deny, but that your religion hath great confirnutie, with that which you have already herded: But I will yet declare & show unto thee more, without swerving from the feast of that dead. For there were other laws, statutes & customs The consormitie between the Popish religion & the paynim. Marriage forbidden deli certain times among the Panans. February that you keep at this day, saving that there is a little difference in that months & days. But else all is one. They had certain months in the year, in which it was not lawful to marry nor to celebrated marriage: not that it was forbioden all that month thorough out, but only certain days in every one of them: of which february had elcuen, which we dedicated unto that dead, as Ovid withnesseth, saying: Now all that time of sacrifice Fast. 2. no wedding might they see, Nor bride to bridegroume, might be known by vow to linked Bee. Nor virgins fair in Mother's sight that marygeable were, By tricking might set out and dress, their yellow bush of hair. The marriage motions now were gone and love was laid a side And duties due to bodies dead Hymeneus' the God of marriage in place 'gan creep and glide. This feast endured and abode so many days they say: As is the month above eleven The month of March. The procession of Mats Fast. 3. The comhat of Mars & Miner va. Porpbyrion in Horat. this do they not denay. That forbidding also took place in that month of March, but it continued but three days, during that which they made the feast and procession of Mars the God of battle: whom the Goddess Minerva banquished in the combat and battle that they had together of marriage. ●f whom Minerva obtaining her Uirginitye, was called Neruie, in the honour of whom the maidens & suoemen did abstain from marriage, these three days together. There remains yet almost as many days for Vay, because may. Pluto in Romu Porphy. in Horal. ● pist. ults. Past. 5. of the feast of the dead, instituted in such time by Romulus as already hath been declared, and Ovid also witnesseth it saying. Nor were those days, for marriage apt. for widow nor for maid And they that married in those times, with loss of life were paid. And for that cause, as proverb old Common Proverb. doth both affirm and say That for to wed hath been forbidden even in the month of May. I know not whether there be any other time, in which marriage was prohtbited, except one part of the first days of june, until such time as the filthiness which men took from the temple of Vesta, after that it was purged and made clean, were cast into the Kyver: as it appeareth by the verses of the poet before allcuged, who bringeth in Sanctus Fidius speaking of his daughter in these words. A time of marriage than I sought Fast. 6. that so by law might bear That join I might, him whom I lyckt her whom I held full dear. Then found I that the Ideses of lune to my desire did 'gree, That daughter to a son in law might mstly linked be. And that the first part of the month, thereto doth not agreed, As Sacrificers wise of late full oft hath said to me. But till that quiet Tiber doth the filth from Vesta rear By trickling flowing water move and so to sea them bear. I think it lawful not for me my rugged hair to comb, Nor yet for me to pair my nails, until due time doth come. Now I pray thee consider friend Eusebius, whether in your religion that order be much changed, & whether you The conformity between the God Mars & S. George have kept those ceremonies. I could here declare unto thee the conformity the which your feast of Saint George hath with that of Mars. For you have S. George for the God of battle & patron of the soldiers, in steed as the paynim had Mars. As touching his feast, there is difference of the time, saving that the one is kept in the moncth of April, and that of Mars in the month of March, in whose honour it The Image of Saint George cast into Seine. john Maio. 4 sent. dist. 49 9 5. keepeth his name. Although that Saint George showed not himself to be any valiant knight, when he suffered his Image to be cast into the river of Seine, of those of the new city of S. George, nigh unto Paris, because that the vines were frozen upon his feast day. I might also bring in the conformity which you make between the virgin Mary and Minerva: For you have consecrated for them feasts all in one month, but I will not now so much dilate and enlarge the matter. Yet nevertheless because of the affinity and conjunction that the one of the superstitions hath with the other, in declaring the feasts of the dead, I will mingle in the deduction of the matter, some other Ceremonies, because of the kindred and neyghbourhoode. I demand then of thee first of all The conformity of the feasts of the dead. February and November friend Eusebius, whether there be any great difference between the feast of the dead, which is celebrated at Rome in the month of February, and yours of November, the which you do celebrated the day after all Saindes? Eusebius. As thou hast accustomed to do thou wilt find always by thy slanders, such agreeing as thou will't. hilarius. Here needeth no slander. We must follow but the simple verity. If thou do think that it agreeth not to thy fantasy, because of the distance that it hath from the month of November unto Februarye, at the leastwise thou canst not deny, but that it agreeth with the time, between yours, and that which the Romans celebrated for the Gaulois and Greeks that were buried in the Bullock market. There is no difference as concerning the time, but only in this, that yours is at the Plut. in Marinell Pantheon and all Saints beginning of the month, and there's in the end. Furthermore thou canst not deny, but that there is conformity between the Pantheon of the paynim, and your feast of all Saints: And even as they had the feast of all the celestial Gods, and that of the infernal Gods, and for the souls of the dead, have not you also the like, celebrating after the feast of all the Saints which are in heaven, that of the dead which are yet detained and kept in purgatory. They do call Pantheon an ancient Temple which was dedicated unto Cybele the great Goddess, Cybele. mother of the Gods, and consequently unto all the other Gods, of whom he beareth the name. For Pantheon signifieth as much, as if we should say, all Pompo. lst. de Roma. antiq. Barth. Marl. de antiq. Roma To. pog. ls. 6. ca 6. S. M. via la. Retende Gods, even as we say, all Saints. For they had those Gods in such reputation, as you have the Saints, in the honour of whom they have celebrated the feast, and made sacrifices in that Temple, which is at this day at Rome, and is called Saint Mary La Rotonde, because that it was made round like unto a Bowl, for to represent the form and fashion of the world. But in steed that it was dedicated unto Cybele, and to all the other Gods, it is now dedicated unto saint Mary, and to all the Saints, to the end that all your papystleall Gods should have such honour, as those of the Idolaters, and their feasts to he regysteed as well as there's. And so by that means Satan is always honoured in steed of God, as he was before under the name and title The mask of Satan of Cybele and of other Gods and Goddesses, saving that he hath changed those old names into other all new and pleasant and favourable among the Christyans, for to disguise himself, to the end he should not be known, and that under a goodly colour he may the easilyer blaspheme God, and dishonour the Virgin Mary and all the Saints and Saints under the colour of honouring them. And without speaking of other Saints and Saints, we may well know, how he would The conformity of Cible and out Lady. Turrita Cybloe. Virg. Aene. 6. Cybele wearing a crown. juno and Diana queen of heaven. luno luctnd. ovid. Fast. 2. Plant. in Aulul Terent. in And Horat. in car. secu. Ourd. Meta. 9 S. Margaret Diand. Strongilio Diana the round. Praxitsles Plut. in num. have the Virgin Mary to hold the place of Cybele, juno and Diana. For first of all he hath caused the Temple of Cybele and others to be dedicated unto her. And as Cybele did wear a Crown, made after the fashion of a Tower, so hath he found the means to represent the Virgin Mary by a crowned Idol, and to attribute to her that title, that the Idolaters did give unto juno and Diana, calling her Queen of Heaven: and also giving unto her the office to aid and help women that are in travail with child, which among the Panyms was given unto those two. Wherefore I beloeve that they have added Saint Margaret, to the end there should be two, as well as the Panyms had. Furthermore, as the paynim had a Diana, which was called, Strongilios, that is to say, Lafoy Rotonde or the Round, because of the Kounde Image, which Praxitiles, the ercellent Paintour had made for them, and that the Romans had the Temple of Vesta round. Also hath he found the practise to make for us a saint Mary La round, or Rotonde. I do remember that which pliny witnesseth and other Autheurs, how that that Temple was also at the beginning dedicated unto jupiter the revenger, and afterwards unto all the other Gods, because that almost all the Images of them all were Pliny. li. 34. c. 3 & ●. 36. c. 15 there. Theophilus. I believe that at the leastwyse Eusebius wpll not dame that which their own books do witness and confirm, namely Platine, Durand and Rergomeusis, In vi● Bontfac 4 Rat. dmi. eff. li. 9 Rub defest. emni. fancto. Boniface. 4. Phocas. Supl. chro. li. 10 The feasts of Martyrs & County sessors. Gregory. 4. Durant. Rat. Ami. off. h. 7. Rub. ●de fist omnium Sanct. Platt. in vita Grego. 4 Bergo. Suppl. chro. li. 11. wytnessinge the same, how that first of all Pope Boniface the fourth, demaundeo that Temple of the Emperor Phocas, who after that he had obtained it, deoycated it unto our Lady, and to all the Martyrs, and commanded that the feast should be celebrated the twelve day of the month of may, in the honour of the Mirgin Mary and of all the Martyrs, for that cause it was called the feast of the Dhrgin Mary unto the Spartyrs, because that then the feasts of the Confessors was not then made, until the time of Pope Gregory the fourth, who transported and changed that feast, from the twelve of Pay, unto the first day of November, and there dedicated not only unto the Apostles and Martyrs, but also unto the Trmitie, unto all the Angels, Confessors, Saints and Saints in Paradise. And this was done about the year 831. Now it is good reason, sith that all the Saints and Saints of paradise have their feast, that the ●oorc souls of purgatory should have there's also. For they have a great deal more need than the Saints which are already at rest, for to comfort and refresh them a little. And therefore Odilo, that holy Abbot of Saint The feast of the dead Odilo. P. Damnia. Rat. diui. off. li. 7. Rub de of mort. Rerge. li. 12 john. 16 Cluny moved with pity & compassion, found and ordained the first, that after the feast of all Saints, the commemoration of the dead should be also celebrated, first in Burgony, the which Pope john the sirtene allowed, and commanded to be observed throughout the other churches, about the year 982. Wherefore thou mayest know and judge whether that such Ceremonies and manner of doings be very ancient, and whether jesus Christ and his Apostles, or the ancient Fathers have been the Authors and inventors of them: and whether they are taken of their inutation. And to the tend thou shouldst have better devetyon unto the feast, I would gladly thou shouldst understand, that it hath been the sauctitie and vertueo of that Pope john, who hath allowed it and recommaunded and betoo'se it to his Churches, and the praises that Platine The manners & life of Pope john. Plate in vitn, lon. 16. gave unto him, in writing his life, saying after this manner: that after that he was come unto the Popedom, he burned with a marvelous hatred against the Clergy. Wherefore he was greatly hated of them, chief because he gave & bestowed all offices, all divine and humane things, unto Beneflces & offices given by parentage. his parents, friends & kinsfolk, not having any care of the honour of God: of which error he hath so put these in possession which came after him, that it is come unto our age. He also witnesseth that in that time appeared a burning Comet, in sign and token of evils to come. For then there was great famine and peltilence and great Bergo li. 12. Covicte. earthquakes: of which evils Platine attributeth all the fault, unto the pride and rapacifie of the Pope, and for diso pising and contempninge of God and men. That was also about that time as the transubstantiation and the Transubstantiation. Berengarius. bergo. li. 12 Plat. in lo. 15 De cousec. dist. 2. ca ego. Masses for the dead took great virtue and credit, and that Berengarius, whom his very enemies were constrained to praise, because of his doctrine and holy life, was constrained to benie himself, because that he loved rather to abide in the sentence of the ancient church, touching the Eucharistia or sacrament, then to receive that new oppnion, of that monstrous transubstantiation, which hath been the cause of so many joolatryes and horrible blasphemies. Thou mayst thereby understand friend Eusebius, the great goodness which almost all at one time are come into the Church, & what devotion we aught to have, seeing the estate of the same, and the authors of those goodly Ceremonies. It is not then without cause that the burning Comet hath appeared, sith that the fire The signification of the Comet. of Purgatory is waren so hot & flameth so much. But now it is not needful that & do expound the causes which moved odilo to do that he did, sith that they have been already touched before. hilarius. It sufficeth now, friend Eusebius, that thou shouldst know & perceive how you agree with the ancient Romans. There is not much difference, but in the time, in that that they have taken November in steed of February and May. Thomas. We have yet an other, in the month of january the next day after the feast of saint hilary. But it continueth not all the day, as in November, at the lest in our City. I know not whether that be One other feast for the dead in lanuarye the custom in all other countries, the feast continueth but in the morning, until such time as the high Mass is song. ovid. Past. 1. Interessidie. Feasts cue in pieces or a sunder hilarius. That is not far vyfferinge from February. We may put between them that which the Romans voe call Intercises, that is to say, to cut a sunder, break in two, and parted in the middle: because that they were common, both to the Gods and men, and that we must celebrated them, until the divine service be ended: Afterwards it was lawful to every one, all the residue of the day to return to his labour & business. Also the Priests, in that day, after that one hath done unto them the service of wine, and that they have gathered their grapes in the morning, and received the offerings in their Pass, the which by reason of those they sing it, do give leave unto every one to travail as much as he will. I would gladly that they would voe so, in many other feasts, in which they will not give leave unto the poor labourers to travail, although that they have cleansed and emptied Other feasts of the dead. their purse in the morning. There are also in many places other feasts for the dead, as the Sunday after Caster, and after Pentecost, that they voe answer thoroughly to The mondayes dedicated unto the dead. that which Romulus instituted: besides all the mondayes of all the weeks which are dedicated unto the dead. As touching the forbidding of marriage, it agreeth bury well The forbidding of marriage with the ancient Roman law. It was forbidden the Romans certain days in February, March, May, and june. But ours did begin them sooner, & continued their forbidding longer time. For during all the Aduent, almost a month, before The advent the feast of the nativity, their law is in force, until S. hilary: by & by afterwards the Septuagesima beginneth in the which the forbidding beginneth again, & coutinueth Septuagesima. ex concslie. hill. 33. 9 4. Non oportes &. c. née uxorem. Rogatiches Decree. ext. do. for. The times of fastuings 33. 7. 4. the space of three score and ten bays, until the Octabis of Caster. Afterwards come the Rogations, and Rovations in which law is in force until Trinity Sunday, and almost three weeks before Saint john, as the decrees voe contain the four times Vigiles, and all the days of fastings joined unto them. Theophilus. Who is he that doubteth, but that the same is a great curse and vengeance of God upon the Christian people, to be subject unto such a tyranuy of body and conscience, and to be in worse condition than the Danims? But they are well worthy of it. For sith that they had rather to be made a Panim than a Christian, of whom they would have but the name, it is good reason that they be subject unto the laws of the paynim, and that GOD voe show unto them in effect that they are unworthy of the name they bear, sith that under the title of Christians they follow no other study nor religion but of the paynim. For the ignorance, superstition and curse is so greute, that notwithstanding that that miserable people is already so much oppressed and kept down with tyranny, and that a great part of the time of holy marriage and of that holy Vrdmaunce of God is taken from them, yet. being not content with the same, they themselves of their own will do deprive themselves at other times and seasons which is not forbidden them, having no other cause nor reason, but their superstition and enchantments. For there are yet at this days many, yea, among those unto whom the Gospel hath been purely prenched, which make it a great doubt not only to marry in the time which was forbidden by the priests, although they have liberty to do it, but chicfly in that month of Pay: And for none other cause but for a foolish opinion & persuasion that they have, that the goods & houschould stuff of those that are married in Day, are wicked and evil fortunate. And I cannot judge that that opinion came any other way, then of that superstition of the Romans of which thou hast spoken off. hilarius. I believe no less. But the better to try out that matter let us consider now the holiness of those goodly 33. 44. ca Non oportet & ca Non liect ex conel. La●●he●. & m. irli pap. Lent. Shrostide. Saint Galiffre. Saint Pansard Bacchanales Baechus The feast of fools. Qutriu●les ovid. Fast. 2 laws. First of all the Septuagesima, Sexagesima & Quinquegesima, dofal commonly in these three months, january, February, & March. Afterwards Lent draweth on who continueth many times even unto the month of April●the which for his entering in, hath his Shrovetide, that is to say, the great feast and solemnity of saint Galiffre and Saint Pansard which is in steed of Bacchanales, the feast of God Bacchus, the God of drunkenness, and of Comus the God of the gluttons, I have also forgotten that the Romans did celebrato the feast of fools which was called the Quirinales the eighteen day of February? Thomas. Did it continued many days? hilarius. It had but one day, which namely was dedicated unto it, but if they would do him no wrong, it aught to continued all the year. At the least wise, from Christmas unto Shrovetide, it is not evil kept among the papistical Christians, and chief The feast of the kings. the day of the kings, and the others following. Theophilus, We do honour them to much to call it The feast of mad men. the feast of the fools. For it is more worthy to be called the feast of mad men, and of those that are out of their wits. hilarius. But for to return unto the Bacchanalos, to Saint Pansard, and to the forbidding of marriage, Genes. 2. d 23 1. Cor. 7. ●. 2 Heb. 13. ●. 4 Hist. trip. ●. 2 ca 13. ●o. 323. dist. 3 ●. c. Nicena. aught it not to have suffired the Pope to have (against the word of God, and the ancient Counsel, namely of Nice) forbidden at all time's marriage unto all those of the Church, Priests, monk ● and nuns, but that he must also extend his cruelty and tyranny, upon all other estates, almost the one half of the year? How much more tolerable and reasonable is the ancient law of the Romans then this new tyranny? What reason have they to allow it? Theophilus. That same of the heretics Manacheans, Manicheans. August. de he●●● ad quid 〈◊〉 dema. Cal. Rho let aut, 26. ●●, 20 who have sustituted new Ceremonies as those here, and have forbidden marriage, and the use of certain meats, affirming that by those things, one obtaineth the holy Ghost, whom also Tatianus hath followed, who was the author and Prince of the sect of the Eucratistes, which Herom. Eucratists. Tatianus. were called by that name because they abstained from wines and from certain meats and from marriage. For Eucratistes signifieth asuch as sober, the which Severus hath augmented, of whom they are called also Severians. Severus. Plate in vit. pi●. 1. hilarius. The Priests and Moonkes are very much afraid, least the race of such people should perish. Therefore have they made so many laws and have travailed so much to maintain their errors. Eusebius. When God would give his law in the Exo. 19 c. 15 Abstinence & separation from women 1. Reg. 21. a. 4. David & Abi melech. loel. 2. d. 16 mountain of Sinai, did not Moses admonish and warn the people to sanctify and make themselves holy, and that they should not come near their wives for three days? And what did David signify by the answer that he made unto Abimelche, when he had said unto him that he had no common bread, but that which was hallowed, and that he asked, whether that he and his youngmen were clean and kept themselves from women. And David answered the Priest and said unto him, of a truth women hath been locked up from us about a three days? Furthermore when the Prophet joel exhorted the people unto penance, fastings and prayers, wherefore said he among other things, let the bridegroume go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet? Doth not the holy Scripture declare sufficiently unto us, how we aught to dispose and give ourselves unto penance, fastings and prayers, chiefly when the solemn feasts do approach? and that when we must go unto the Lord's table for to The preparation the lords table. receive his precious body and blood, is it not then requisite, that we should abstain both from women, and from all other carnal pleasures. Theophilus. I deny not, but that God requireth of us, a great honesty, movesty and helms, and that we sheult abstain, not only from things which of themselves are evil and wicked, and by he● forbidden at all times, but it is also requisite some time, to abstain from things which Abstinence from things lawful. 33. 9 4. ca Quo●●escunque Ambr. ser. de adunt. 1. The. 4. a 4 1. Pet. 3. a. 1 1. Cor. 6. c. 15. ●●he. 5. a. ● To keep his vessel in hovor are lawful & permitted, when there is a question of some thing of great unportance: if such things might anything at all be a let unto us. And when the ancient Doctors have spoken of such things, they have so understanded it. But although that God desireth that every one should know, how to keep his vessel in holiness and honour, & that none do defile his own body, nor his wives, nor of any other whosoever it be, thorough to great concupiscence of the flesh, and that he also requireth in the holy marriage, a Christian continency, chastity and sobriety, as from wine and other creatures. Must he therefore forbidden marriage unto some for ever, and unto other some a great part of the time, without excepting any person whatsoever he or she be, of what estate, condition or infirmity that may be in them? hilarius. You do wrong Theophilus. For they The Pope's dispensations. are not so rigorous as you make them to be, and have not such straight and rigorous laws, but that for money they will release and dispense with it. But which is more, I believe that who soever will bring money unto that Pope, and agree with him, that he will dispense with the child to marry with his mether, the father with his daughter: the brother with his sister: without having regard unto consanguinity, divine laws nor humane. Theophilus. I doubt it not, except the shame and fear of men do let and hinoer it sooner than the fear of God. hilarius. By what right shall he refuse unto others, that which sometime some amongst them are permitted? For which I will have none other witness at this time but the Cpitath of Lucretia, that daughter of Pepe Alexander, the which was made in Latin after this manner and to Pope Alexander this effect. Within this tomb here now doth sleep, who had to name Lucrece The Epieath of Lucre●● In all things she compared was, to I hass whore of Grece. Whom Alexander Pope of Rome, when she remained in life Esteemed as his daughter in law, and used as his wife. Theophilus. I demand of thee friend Eusebius, if God hath forbidden marriage unto every person, estates and conditions, or in any times and seasons, wherefore doth that Pope dispense for money? For that which God hath forbidden and prohibited, cannot be lawful for any money that one can disburse. If God hath not forbidden it, wherefore doth he forbid that which God hath permitted? you cannot deny, but that he is a Tyrant, these and a pillar of the poor people. hilarius. I will resolve thy doubt and will vanquish thee by a plain and clear induction, will't thou not Induction. grant unto me, that God is above the law, and that he is subject unto none. Theophilus. I do not gain say it. hilarius. Afterwards, do you not confess, that God which made that law, can dispense with it at his pleasure, and that where there is dispensation of God, there is no more law? Theophilus. I also agree unto thee in that. hilarius. For where there is no law, as Saint Paul Rom. 4. ●. 15 witnesseth there is no transgression, nor sin. Theophilus. I do now perceive where unto thou will't come. I well perceive that you mind to conclude, that sith that the Pope is God in the earth, he may well dispense with those laws that he giveth here in earth, & that after his dispensation there remains no more sin, unto them which offend against his laws, when those laws are taken from them, by him that gave it them. But of this thy conclusion, I will bring forth yet another consequence, by the which I will prove, that he which doth against the laws of that Pope, which have no foundation by the word of God, doth not sin but against the Pope, & not against God, for To sin against the Pope and against God. there is no transgression against God, but in that whereof there is a law of God. Now there is in none of all those things whereof, we have spoken: any law given of God. Wherefore who so that marrieth in those times prohibited, he sinneth not against God, but against that Pope only? not that I will dame, but that we must obey that higher powers & rulers, not only because of fear the we should have of them, & of the power that they have over us, but also for conscience Rom. 13. ●● 〈◊〉 & obediences unto Magultaces Chay for consentence sake, as the holy Apostle teacheth us, giving us thereby to understand that we aught to obey our Princes & Lords, with a good conscience, although that we fear not they? punishment and bengeaunce, because we must serve them as those which serve God and not men, which is but his instrument and servant. But the same aught to be under standed, in that wherein the power is lawful, and that one may obey it, without hurting the soul, & peril of conscience, notwithstanding that one should receive damage, either in body or goods. For in another case & condition Col 3 d 13. the answer of the Apostle abideth always firm. It is better to obey God then men. hilarius. I well agree unto that thou sayest: But thou Act. 5. f. 19 hast not yet hit the white. For I am a more subtle Logyeioner than thou thinkest that I am, nor I stay not only upon common arguments. And therefore let us return again unto nune induction, the which I have not yet ended. 〈◊〉 God the Pope 13 john. 14. d 30 I am very well contented to confess unto thee, that the Pope is a God in the earth, but in that sense, as the devil is called in the holy Scripture the prince of this world: 1. Cor. 3. 24. the God of this world: the ruler of darkness: or in that sense, as we do gods the Idols & strange Gods. But there is yet a greater God and more puissant than Ephe. 1. d. 20 he, unto whom he and all other such Gods like unto him, are subject and obedient. Now I demand of thee where The e. de of man's Isa. to aught we to refer the end of man's life? Theophilus. Unto him from whom it took his beginning. Genes. 1. a 1 Genes. 1. 2 7 Esa. 41. 3. 2. Pro. 16 2 4 Act. 14. c. 15. Act. 17. f. 24. Bphe. 1. 2. 1 Hillarias. It is then of God, who is the beginning and end of all thing, who hath made all things for himself, of whom all proceeded, and unto whom it must ●t urn again. Theophilus. It is very true. hilarius. I demand of thee more over, unto what end dost thou think, that all those popish ceremonies do tend: As for me, I can The end of the Popish laws perceive but that they have taken their sight & regard to none other end but unto the money. If there be any which will deny it, I will prove it like a good Logicioner, the cause by his effects. Sigh then that the final cause is the money, unto whose honour all these laws do refer themselves, and that the same is the author, I do also conclude, The great God of the people. Mammon Mat. 6 c. 24. Luc. 16. e. 13. that it is the God, unto whom all these things aught to be brought: the which jesus Christ calleth Mammou, if you will know his name in that Hebrew or Siriake tongue: Doctor if you had rather in Greek, we will call him Plutus: whom Aristophanes magnifieth so much, that he Plutus. Aristoph. in Pluto. says, that there is no God so great, not not lupiter himself, upon which he hath not rule and dominion, & which is not subject unto him. Theophilus. That agreeth not evil, with the witness of Solomon, saying: unto money are all things obedient. hilarius. If you will in like manner give it a latin Eccle. 10. d. 19 name, and to make it a Goddsse, you may call it Pecunia, The gods Pecunta. that is money, as the ancient Latinists, who have made of it a Goddess. Whereunto agreeth very well the common translation, in that place which you alleged of Solomon, saying, unto money are all things obedient, Wherefore I am abashed, of that which the Poet Juvenal hath Cal. lo. aut. li. 21. ca 34. spoken, for that men have not made unto it a Temple, nor consecrated any Altar, sith that it is so puissant a Goddess, unto whom is attributed the title of the Dmnipotent and altogether mighty, which belengeth unto God alone. For it is commonly said: Money doth allthings. Theophilus. Saint Augustine following the authority of Varro, also says that the ancients have called that God, Aesculanus. in Latin, Aesculanus, because that the first money that was made, was of Brass. hilarius. You may already perceive, that Plutus and Pluto were brethren: or at the lest cousin Germans: saving that the one reigned upon the earth, and the other underneath the earth. Now forasmuch as that GOD, whether you call him Mammon, Plutus, Pluto, Aesculanus, or Pecunia, be the author, and law giver of all those laws, by good right and reason he may dispense with them. And when they have his dispensation, there remaineth no more sin, as in respect of the Pope. For he dispenseth with more greater things, insomuch that he will not suffer the use of marriage, to eat flesh, and white meats, but that one had need, to cell GOD, to eat, and to do that he would doc: I mean the Gods, that he himself hath made, and of which his Priests call themselves the makers, which yet nevertheless are but the creatures of the Selling of God. The Creators of the Creator. Stella derc. The creators of me Pope Pope: Do not the most greatest Cardinals which for such do acknowledge and confess themselves. Wherein there standeth a marvelous case, the which Solin hath forgotten, when that he made his book of the meruaples and wonders of the world. For that is a case the like whereof, was never seen, that the Creator, should be a Creature, and the Creature, a Ceator: as it appeareth by that that the Pope is the Creator of the Cardinals, his Creatures: Afterwards the Cardinals, his Creatures are Creators of their Creator? For they do created and make the Pope. After the same manner would they dce with their God which they make and unmake, afterwards do make him again as they list. Theophilus. For my parts, I will net much reply against thy solution: But I know not whether that Eusebius willbe contented. And therefore I will show unto him other reasons. If the Pope and the Priests do love somuch continency and chastity, as they make a show, wherefore have they not rather followed the counsel of Saint Paul, then to sorge and make new laws altogether contrary both to the Aposlolicall doctrine, and the law of God? Who is he that better knoweth man, his virtue, constance and continency, or his infirmity, fragility and incontinency, than GOD who hath made and fashioned Genes. 1. 2. him, and who hath thoroughly proved him? Then if God who best did know the burden of man, Psa. 139. 2. 1. that he himself would not restrain him by laws of continency, which might have been an occasion of sin and incontinency, but he hath ordained the holy marriage for a remedy, the which he would The ordinance and use cl marriage Mat. 9 b. 9 1. Cer. 7. b11s Heb 13. a. 4. have common unto all estates, and unto all sort of people which have not the gyste of continency, and that it was permitted at all times and seasons. Then wherefore is it that those here will compel so long time men and women to live chaste and do separate the Spouse from the Spouses, the Dusbande from the wife, for to give unto them occasion to fall into whoredom? And they do not the same for two or three days as the Israelites did, when GOD would manifest himself unto them in the Mount Sina. They had good occasion to sanctify and prepare The answer to the place of the 19 of Exodus. themselves for to see and behold that great majesty of God, and to receive that holy law, that he would give unto them. And yet nevertheless Moses did not assign unto them but three days, for to separate themselves from their wines. Abimelech required no more of David and his The place of the 1. of Samuel. 21. li. 5 The hallowed bread. Mat. 12. a. 3. compaignions': although that he did give unto them of the hallowed bread, which was not lawful to eat but for the Priests of the law only. And yet those things are not happened, but for one tyme. They have not made laws nor rules yearly or perpetual, nor common unto all men. In like manner also joel gave not a prefixte day unto The place of loel. 2. c. 12. Exortation un to repentance. the Israelites, but aomonyshed and athorted them only to return unto the Lord, and to leave off all other things, and to forget all carnal pleasures and delights, for to run unto his mercy thorough true repentance infastinges & prayers, to the end he may withdraw his beatings and scorging, the which he had already stretched forth ever them, But he compelled no man. Such erhortations and admonitions are very honest and requisite in the Church, chiefly in the times of calamities & miseries, when God threateneth us with his furor & judgement, But it is more than necessary to follow the moderation the which Saint Paul, in such case hath used, chief The counsel & moderat●● of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 7 b 11 in this time now, for that the world is so much corrupted and depraved, and somuch subject unto her carnal affections. The Apostle knowing man's infirmity, dursse not forbidden marriage to any man, of what quality soever he were off: not only for a day: but admonished and commanded, by God's authority, unto all those who have not the gift of continency and chastity, for to reframe themselves The gift of ●ōtinen●●c without being polluted & defiled, neither in their bodies or souls, thorough the burning concupiscence and work of the flesh, to marry for to avoid fornication & whosedome, and for to keep their bodies, hearts, and consciences Separation of the husband and the wife for a time. in all purity and holiness. And he would not only suffer, that the husband and the wife should separate themselves, the one from the other, ercept it be but for a small & little time, yea for to watch unto fasting and prayer. And upon such condition, that the separation be not over long, but that by and by they return together again, lest that Satan, by that means do find occasion to tempt them, thorough their incontinency, and to ●istame their concupiscence: And that thorough the fragility of the flesh, the one or the other of the parties do not fall into some fault & inconvenience. And the cause wherefore that holy Apostle hath written after that sort of those matters, that is because (as he says) he would not put the halter about any To put the halter about one's nacke. man's neck: giving us thereby to understand, that those which forbid or hinder the holy marriage, do put the rope about the neck of those unto whom they have forbidden, and do put them in peril of damnation. Wherefore I am marvelously abashed to think, to what end those worshipful prelate's of the Church, have thought, in forbidding the marriage and espousals unto all, and for so long time: and that the stews continued open at all times. Do they not well declare thereby that they do follow the laws and decrees of that great whore of Babylon, the mother of fornication? Apoc. 17. 21 Eusebius. Thou condempnest thyself by thy own words. For how will they prove the whoredom, when they require continency and chastity in marriage? Thou regardest not, that in condemning the Prelates, which are now in the Church, and following thy affections thou dost also condemn the ancient doctors and counsels. For how many times Ambr. s●. de advent. & in Epist. 1. Cormt. 33. 9 4. c. setatis quoties●unque, Christiano. Qu●. have Saint Amborse, Chrisostome, Saint Jerome, Saint Augustine and Saint Gregory, erhorted the married folk unto contineneye, and to abstain from carnal works in the time of fasting and prayers, and on the solemn feasts: and chiefly upon those days that we must go unto the lords table. Theophilus. Peradventure, friend Fusebius, thou speakest better than thou thinkest: Thou didst not speak altogether evil, that they have erhorted: but there is great difference between erhortation and forbidding, counsel and commandment. I deny not but that they have made such erhortations and admonitions unto the people, as the holy Apostle did unto the Corinthians. Wherein we may follow them, even as they have followed the Apostle: who as witnesseth saint Augustine himself, would not only Li. de adulte. coniug.. 33. 9 4. c. Apostolus suffer that the married people should make any separation from the bed, at no manner of time, not for to watch unto fasting and prayer, but thorough the consent of the one and the other. Forasmuch then as the ancient Doctors do follow that rule, we will not speak 'gainst them, if they use it only for admonytions and erhortations, leaving in such case every one at his liberty, without laying unto any man bond, weight or necessity, which may induce him to sin, and that his infirmity cannot bear it. For even as we aught not to constrain and compel man unto more greater continency and chastity than he may have, and that it is not lawful for him to use the holy marriage which God hath given unto him for a remedy, so we must not condemn those unto whom GOD hath given more greater gyste of continency, if they use it to the honour of God, both out of marriage and also in marriage. For the honesty and continency cannot be too great in us. hilarius. Not truly, if it be truly & without saynednesse, and that in steed of chastity, there be not secrtnesse and privinesse, and that one do not receive the rule Chastity and secretness. The Monkish proverb and the proverb of the Moonkes, saying: Si non caste tamen caute: that is, if not chastely, yet let it be privily. Theophilus. So do I understand it. But on the contrary, as soon as one cometh to restrain the faithful more than God would, and that the Apostle durst not take it in hand, there is no man of so great authority that I can allow. For we cannot deny, but that among the aunciences there were some more rigorous and contrary unto marriage than was lawful, and chief Jerome contrary unto marriage Jerome, who so much praised virginity and wydowhoode, that oftentimes he did injury unto marriage: And it seemeth that he would condemn it. As it appeared in his writings against jovimanus and many others. The superstition of Gregory 33. 9 4. ca vir. Sent. li. 4. dist. 31. Sed sort. Also thou canst not ercuse Gregory of superstition, who saith, that the man which sleepeth with his own wife, aught not to enter into the Church, except that he be first washed with water, because that although that the marriage be permitted of God, yet nevertheless man may not have the company of his wife, without sinning some thing. Wherefore he hath need to purge himself. And affirmeth that that custom hath been of long time received and allowed in the Romish Church. hilarius. Nevertheless I cannot understand, upon what place of the Scripture that custom hath taken his The jewish wasshing Mat. 15. a. 9 Marc. 7. b 13 Pers. Saty. 2. foundation, except upon the traditions of the Pharisees and the washings of the jews or paynim, and upon the doctrine of Persius, saying. And for to do as I thee bid fulfil this just request In Tiber early plunge thy head, even twice or thrice at jest, And take the river water then, and all besprinkle thee, By force and virtue of the which, the night shall purged be. Theophilus. But when one hath grievously sinned, can the water purge and make him clean? I doubt not but that that superstition is yet of that which is left of the error of those who altogether did condemn and forbidden marriage. But yet what superstition soever might have been in some of the ancients, yet nevertheless they forbid not the marriage, nor the espousalles, unto those which were not married, in what time soever it were, as afterwards it was forbidden by their successors, 33. 9 4. ex concilio Laodicens'. Hilerd. Martini Pape. Nicol. ad consult Bulgar. ca non oportet. Non licet. Nec uxorem extra. de Ma. contrac. in the counsels of Laodocia, Hilerdien, and in that of Pope Martin and Nicolas, who did forbid to celebrated marriages in those times above limited, and did command to separate for a time, those that should do the contrary. hilarius. It is but reason, sith that they have begun the dance and morishe, to end it altogether. sith that they have already determined and concluded that in the Dbsequys, Mortuaryes, Funerals, Feasts and in good deeds for the dead, to follow the ancient Romans their ancestors, that they would also keep the other dependaunces of those feasts and religions. sith than that they would have their Februales. they must have also their Bacchanales which they celebrated at Shrovetide, and that then the marriage The conformity and desormitie of Bacchanales & shrovetide should be forbidden, and the spouse separated from the espouses, and the husband from his wife, as the paynim had a custom, for to prepare themselves unto the Bacchanales. But there is a small difference, in that that the Panyms did first their Lente, afterwards their Shrovetide. For when they would consecrated themselves for to enter and be received in the religion of Bacchus, or would prepare and sanctify themselves for to celebrated the feast of Bacchanales Preparation unto the Bacchanales Diomsiales and Dionysiales, they did abstain themselves a certain time, to touch a woman, and also to lie with their lawful wives, as Ovid witnesseth, writing of the separation of Hercules, after this manner. ovid. Fast. 2. Now after that they feasted had they gave themselves to rest, And laid them down in beds apart as pleased their fancy best. They did the same for to prepare themselves more devoutly to solemnize the day and feast due unto God Bacchus which planted the Wine. It was ordained to keep chastity and continence and to abstain at the lest ten days together, and after to wash and purify themselves in the tenth day: But they did recompense and acquit afterwards with all dissolution, whoredom and all abomination, the abstinenco that they made before, as one may see and thoroughly know by that which Titus Livius hath written. But our savage and brutish Christians begin by Shronetide, the Tit. Livi. dec. ● li. 9 Savage Christians. which hath his beginning immediately after Christmas, and they continued it always in augementing the dyssolutions more and more, until Shroves sundaye, Shrove sundry. and the feastyvall day of saint Galissre, for to begin the Lent with better dovotion, and to prepare themselves more devoutiye unto the lords table, to the which yet they bear not so much reverence, as the paynim did unto their Bacchanales. For the most part of the Priests themselves, who will not marry the new married folk, and which do separate the husband from the wife, with much a do they can be without their The poseall Mass of the whores of the Priests. whores upon Caster day: But do customely 'cause the pot to be heated at the fire, and do make ready the dinner whilst that Monsieur the Canon, the Curate or ●iear maketh a good face or countenance in the Church, and administereth to others. Wherefore I greatly fear lest that during the time that they caused the wives to be separated from their husbands, they do play (if they can find the means) such a craft and deceit unto the poor & simple husbands, as the God Faunus did think to The craste and● deceit which Faunus did think to do to Hereules being separated from his wise play with Hercules whilst that he did lie alone being separated from his wives bed, for to prepare himself to the solemnity of the Bacchanales. For that good wise man did not think to fail (according to the witness of that good doctor Ovid and divine, before alleged) but Fast. 2. to go and sanctify the wife of Hercules in her bed, if he had not deceived himself, in going to the bed of Hercules in steed of the other that he sought, in the which he did find Hercules, who made him to fall backward. God knoweth whether such fortune should happen always unto the husbands when that such Faunus do come to sanctific their beds, if they should make them oftentimes to stumble with their heads forward. They The blessings of the bed of the spouse. The Fauns, satires & Bulls of the christianity may well go to bless the beds of the sponses, for to learn the way, and to unblesse them afterwards. For those are the true Fauns, satires and common Bulls, who will leave no woman undefiled, if thee would not be ruled by others, but by them. But in their case there is no fable, as in Poetry, for they lay on in good earnest without feigning. Wherefore their Doctors Chanesi. li. de 〈◊〉. which compare the Priests unto the Cock, do no wrong. For as there must be but one Cock, for a great company of Pullettes and Hens, so is one Priest or monk in a Town or Parish enough, for to keep women from being barren. They will not leave off, if they may possible, but to say Cgges: But when they have laid, and hatched them, let him that lysi bring up the Chéekins. They do altogether contrary to the Capons, whom one causeth to nourish & bring up the young one's which they have not hatched. They give that office unto the husbands, and they shall be like unto the Coockowe, who goeth away after that he hath laid in an other Birds neaste, and taketh no care who shall bring up her young one's, What sayest thou friend Eusebius? Me thinketh that I have already declared unto thee by the occasion of the feast of the dead, the goodly conformyties, between your Religion and the Panyms, touching the purifications and sanctyfications. But I will yet declare unto thee others, which do proceed of that same beginning, or of one kindred. From whence C●●dlemas day. dost thou think that the feast of the Purificatyon of our Lady hath taken his original and beginning? Eusebius. I do believe that it was ordained in the honour of God and the Virgin Mary, and in remembrance of the presentation that she made of her son jesus Christ, and of the goodly works of God, which were done that day. Luc. 2. c. 2●. Theophilus. I do not doubt, but that the ancient Fathers, have instituteh many feasts to a good intent, chief for two causes. The ffrst, for to draw The cause of ● institution of lea●● away the paynim and jews by little and little, chiefly those which had already received the Gospel, from their idolatry and accustomed superstition, and the better to pluck from them, that which they thought they could not well obtain, except they did change them into some other Ceremonies: to the end that they should not think that they were The infirmity of man. altogether without religion and divine service. For they were yet very weak, nor could? not easily forget their old customs. Wherefore the ancient Fathers have studied and determined to change the I●●●ishe and Panishe Ceremonies into some other fashions more Christian like. Therefore have they ordained many feasts, the which they would have made to serve for remembrances and recoroations of the benefits of God, and for examples, which might edify the Church or congregation, for to abolish the remembrance of the Idols and strange Gods, which were so much rooted in their hearts. Afterwards, they did see by experience, that there was great infirmity, rudeness and ignorance in the most greatest part of the people, and that if they had not some feasts and Ceremonies, many would follow those of the jews and paynim, and have fellowship with their sacrifices, and would set but little by the preaching of the word of God. For there are many, which would never set their foot within the Church door, and would never be found in the Christian assembles, if there were never any feast. And so by that The contemning of the Gospel means they are enforced to let and stop such evils and dangers. Wherefore they have been constrained to ordain feasts containing the commemoration of the principal works of God, and the principal articles of the faith, the better to imprint into the hearts of every one, to the end that there should be none among the Christians, but at the lest he should know the principal points of the Christian religion, upon his finger's ends: But their institution hath not taken so good effect nor such issue as they looked it should have done. For man is of such nature, that if he be without outward Ceremonies, either he will become altogether without God, & religion: Man without means, & how he useth the out ward things or else he will forge and invent a new, after his own brain. On the coutrarye, if one give bym ceremonies, for to hold him in religion, and in his office, he will make of them Gods and Idols, and will put all his trust in the outward visible, and material ceremony and will forsake the principal and spiritual things, signified by those ceremonies: and in steed to serve him as for degrees and shows for to attain unto the true spiritual religion, and to enter. into the true Temple of God, stayeth himself upon the degrees, and before the gate, and will not enter into the house: As we see by experience in the people of Israel, who have always more esteemed the exterior ceremonies, than those by which God would teach them. Now if the same be happened unto the people of God, and to the Ceremonies ordained of God himself. as all the Prophets do witness, what may happen unto the ceremonies and traditions invented by men? Especially when the Church hath false Prophets, or negligent and covetous pastors and shepherds, which have no care of the health and salvation of the people, and which do not travail to pull away the superstition and Idolatry, but rather to augment and increase it, for to abuse the ignorance of the poor simple people to their profit and filthy gain: cursed and too execrable is that which we at this day do prove and feel. For in steed to have abolished by the feast of Candlemas the old idolatry, one hath augmented and confirmed it a great deal more: the which is so much the more dangerous, that the mask and dysguisinge of Satan is better painted out, and hath found out names and titles more goodly and favourable, as is that of the blessed Virgin the mother of jesus Christ, as hath been already touched, in speaking of Pantheon. hilarius. Let us consider all the matter word by word, and thou shalt see, whether that in the feast of The feasts of that paynim contay●ned in the feast of Candel● mass. Candlemas we do not celebrated the Februales, Lupercales, Proserpinales, and Florals, of the paynim. First the name of the Purisication agreeth very well with the name of February and of the Februales, which do also signify Purification February Februales purifications. Afterwards that purification is celebrated in the honour of the virgin Mary, in whose name, men do bless, consecrated, and be are Candles, Tapers of War and Torches. The paynim had all the same, Lupere●es Ser●. Persp. ●●no Februla. Felrual●. Februala Pu●●●cations of women The whips of the Lupele les. The 〈◊〉 of luno. The robes & gowns of the priests doing miracles or the like in their Lupercales in that same time andmoneth, and in the feast of the god else luno, the which they called Februla, Februalis, & Februata, which signifieth purified or purisicative, because that the purifications were made in her feast, and chiefly the same of the women, the which the lupercal Priests do purify, beating them upon hands and back, with scourges and whips made of goats skill, and with the cloak of juno, with which they do cover them, chiefly for to make them bear children. But I am certain, that for to do such miracles, the gowns and cloaks of the Priests and Moonkes have more virtue, than the same of luno, and I believe that the women which have been covered with it, shallbe barren by nature, except they return more sertile and fruitful. Theophilus. Saint Augustine maketh also mention of a Goddess named Meria, whom he also calleth Februa, Meria, because that the paynim do believe that she purgeth the women of their issue of blood, and stayeth them every month, and chiefly after the conception and delivering of child. But there is no doubt but that was not that luno, of whom thou speakest off. hilarius. We cannot doubt of it: for that office was also assigned unto her, and for that cause they have called Fluon. ●. it Fluona, by reason of the Flur and issue of blood. But our Priests have now given that office unto the virgin Marry, and do cause the women to be purified after their delivery, when that they are risen from their bed as the jews did. As though jesus Christ had not been yet come, and as though we were under the Ceremovies of the law Theophilus, Durand also witnesseth that in that same feast the Romans from five year to five year, the first day Durand. Ral. d●●● off. it. ●. Rub. le purif. of February did purify all the night the Towns with Tapers & Torches lighted in the honour of Februa the Goddess, the Mother of God Mars, whem they accounted for the God of Battle, to the end he we ulde give unto Mars. them victory. And they call also that feast Ambuibales, because of the processions, in which they carry that hosts and Amburbales. Sacraments that they do sacrifice with, and in like manner the sacrifices which they make by the Towns & Villages, and round about the same, and by the fields, as we do in the Rogation week and on Christmas day. Furthermore, Regations men did sacrifice that same very time unto Pluto who for that cause, as witnesseth Isidorus, was named Februus, and they did in like manner do sacrifice unto other Februus. pluto. Sacratices unto the infernal gods. Watchings & Vigdes for the dead. The Cardelmas of Ceres and Preserpma. Lactan. de fall. religl. li. 1. ca 12. infernal Gods, for the souls of their ancestors, and offered unto them hosts. Watching all night, singing Vigiles with Tapers and Torches burning, to the end they should have pity and compassion of the poor souls that be dead. The women also, celebrated the feast of Candlemas in the honour of the Goddess Ceres, and of her daughter Proserpina, because that Pluto, that God of hell, for her beauty had ravished at the beginning of that month, & that her mother Ceres seeking for her by hills & valleys, being lighted in the night with torches & lamps in Actna that hill of Sicily, as that poetical fables do witness. hilarius. Theu hast all ●dged Durand, the master of that papistical ceremonies, & I will allege unto thee an other, which is of no less credit, of whom thou hast already often times herded the witness, the which I do bring forth again, for confirmation of the words of Durand, out of that book in which he describeth the feast of Ceres, saying among other of his words as followeth. Yea there in steed of flaming lamp East. 4● the Pine tree they did use, hereof the torch then granted was for Ceres' sacred Muse. Theophilus. For that cause (says he) that in remembrance Pope ●ergius of the same, at the beginning of the month of February, they purified the City, and went in procession round about the same. In steed whereof Pope Sergius hath commanded & established the feast of the Purification of our Lady. And if thou think that I speak without book, and Rat. Divi. off. 7. Rub. de pu●●. that I have invented the same of myself, I do sand thee unto your own books, & chiefly unto Durand, of whom I think, that there wanteth not much, but that I have recited unto thee word by word almost all that which thou has●e now herded of me. hilarius. He aught also to add, that the weepings, lamentations & sour looks that they do make in their temples the Passion week, the which they call the great & holy week, & chiefly the apish tricks of the holy Friday, are proceeded from that original & beginning. For as that women celebrated the Cereales & Proserpinales with lamentations, representing the sorrow which Ceres did take because of her daughter Proserpina which was ravished, & in like manner the Adoniales, in that honour of Venus, bewailing and lamenting her friend Adonis which was killed. Doth it not also seem that they would in the virgin Mary & jesus Christ her son, renew & set up again all these old superstitions, neither more nor less than if that holy virgin were Ceres, Venus, or Isis: & jesus Christ Adonis, or Adovis. Osiris? For what difference is there between their divine service by that which they would cositerfeit the death & passion of jesus Christ, and the same which the ancient idolaters did make in the honour of Adonis and Osiris? For they do celebrated every year in the month of june the feast, and in remembrance of that that Adonis Theocri. 〈◊〉. 23. Lue. in debt syria● Hiero. tn E●●. c. 8. was killed, and torn in pieced of a wild Boar, they beaten and strike themselves every year, until the blood cometh forth, and make great sorrwe and lamentations sh●●ow out the whole country. And after that they have made an end of beating themselves & weeping, they bid that office after Adonis, even as after those that be dead. Afterwards the next day they did say that he was alive again, and that they lifted him up on high in the air, and did shave their heads, even as the Egyptians did when Apis was dead among them, and that they did celebrated the feast of Osiris, which is also called Serapis For first 〈…〉. of all the Priests of that Goddess lsis do shave their heads and their beards and strike their breasts, and do lament, even as Isis lamented, when she had lost but little son Osiris. Afterwards, the child was brought again, as though he had been found, and then all the sorrow was changed into joy. Therefore the Poet cain calleth him Osiris, who is never searched for enough. 〈◊〉 de sal. 〈◊〉 li. ca 21. luke. Saty. 8 for as Lactantius says, they do lose him always, and always find him again. Theophilus. I doubt not, but that the same is that same Idolatry which ezechiel rebuked, speaking of the women which wept for Thamus: as Saint Hieromecrpoundeth Thammus. Eze. 8. c. 14 it, or at the leastwise altogether the like. hilarius. Now mark & consider all the trayve that our Priests do hold upon good friday. And thou will't say that Good Friday. they have lost jesus Christ, or that he is dead, and that they would bury him. And afterwarded a day after that Easter Allel●ya Caster is come, Allelnya, whom they have buried, is raised again, and there is no more question, but to laugh and rejoice, and to celebrated the feast which the paynim do call Hilaria, that is to say, the joyful, and tt, at they do celebrated H. 〈◊〉. it in the honour of the God Kiss, in laughing and rejoicing, and rehearsing some good thing to laugh at, as that The God Ris Apul. aluti. aur. 11 3. holy fathers do in their Sermons, on that feasts of Caster, when they do give the sweet nesegayes unto the Ladies, of which custom are proceeded that books of De risu Paschalt, for to a waken their Auditories, and the better to sanetifie the feast of the God hallelujah, with whom they do trumph all the year. Theoplulus. They may well sake jesus Christ. For he may be lost and dead for them, crcept they learn to know and honour him other wise than they do: For he hath not taught us to celebrated the remembrance of his death and passion after the example of that same of Adonis & Osiris: But hath given unto us the manner & fashion in the holy Supper such as it appertaineth unto him and The true come meration of the death of jesus Christ his Church, the which we aught to follow, and we need not to have so many ceremonies and Panish superstitions. hilarius. For to make an end in painting and setting Floralet. forth the Caster, we need to add no more but that Florals, the which they celebrated in that same time in the month of April, in the honour of the Goddess Flora, with torches and lights, as at the feast of Candlemas it appeareth by that that she herself answered unto Ovid, which bringeth it in, speaking so of her feast: Fast. 5. Those lights which served to their use in times full long ago Unto the very like use serve, our present time also, And they celebrated the same feast, for to keep the goods & fruits of the earth, as the Cereales, both of them in that same month: notwithstanding that Durand placeth them in the Cereales. month of february, the better to agree with the feast of Candlemas, Let us now lay together all those pieces, and let us consider how the devil mocketh God, the Virgin Mary, and all the Christian people: And how of the Virgin Dishonour to the Virgin Mary Mary, he is enforced not only to make one Idol but many, and hath induced and persuaded that Christians, without that they had any regard, to make her a juno, Februa, Venus, Ceres, Proserpina, & Flora. For we do honour her after the same sort, or rather that devil, under the title of her whom he hath taken for to cover & bioe himself, in stcede of those whom I have but now named. To what end do these torches & holy candles serve, & all your processions? Holy candles & processions. Representation of the light of the Gospel. Esi. 40. b. 6. Act 13 g. 47. Eusebius. Pen carry them, for to represent by them the light of the Gaspell that which jesus Christ hath carried & born, which is that true light of that world, for to illuminate & lighten the poor Gentles and Idolaters, and the glory of the people Israel, according to the prophecy of Esay and of Simeon. Theophilus. But must we present him with torchest Act. 13. g. 47. Luc. 2. c 32. Psa. 19 c. 9 Torehes of the Chrustans. Mat. 5 b. 14 candles? is not that rather the office of the Priests to light the Candle, lamp and torch of the word of God, (which is the light of our feet, lightning the blind, giving wise, doine unto the little one's and ignorant) thorough the preaching of the Gaspell, and to set it upon a candlestick & Mat. 15. b. 14. Mat. 2●. b. 16 upon the table, for to give light unto all those which are in that house of God, not for to put it under the table and under a bushel, and to fill the people's eyes and all the Church of God, with smoke and darkness, for to testify and witness that they are blind leaders of the blind. hilarius. They should have more reason, if they went a procession in the night, as the paynim did. And it is not to be doubted, but that they carried those torches & candles lighted, for to serve them for Purifications, & drive away the evils from the City, and from their houses, after the same manner as the paynim did. Te humiliter deprecartur us has candelas ad usus omnia & salutem animarum & corporum sine in terra sine in aquis, per invecationemsancts fur nominis & per intereessionem sancta Maria virgins genetricis filly tul (cuius body sesla denels colimus) & per preces omnium sanct, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benedicere & sanctificate dig ne●●. 1. Theophilus. If they would deny it, they would be banquished of the contrary as liars, aswell by the prayer and blessing, the which they bse, for to bless the tapers and torches, the day of the feast of Candlemas, as of that that they use the Saturday before Caster or upon Caster even for to bless the fire and the Pascal taper. Park than first of all that which they sing the day of the feast of Candlemas as it is contained in the Pissell, not that I will recite word for word, all their blessing but only the principal points for to prove our meaning, & by the which thou mayst judge of the rest. They sing unto God: we hubly beseech thee, that thorough the muecation of thy holy name and by the intercession of the holy virgin Mary the mother of thy son, whose feast this day we devoutly celebrated, & by the prayers of all thy Saints, that it would please thee to bless and sanctify these candles, for the use of man, and the health of the souls and bodies, be it in the earth or in the waters: Behold their own proper words rehearsed truly word for word, Where have Candles for the health of the souls & bodies Benedie Doms ne jesus Christ have creaturam cere supplicanti bus nobis. etc. they found, that the Candles do serve for the health of the souls and bodies, and that they have any other use, then for to give light unto the corporal eyes, but in the books of the paynim. But by and afferwards they do say worse. Park then their words, O Lord jesus Christ we humbly beseech thee, to bless this creature of war, and shed forth in the same thy heavenly blessing, by the virtue of the holy Cross, to the end that as thou hast given it unto makinde, for to put & drive away the darkness, it may recelue such force and benediction, by the sign of thy holy Item: Benedico te creatura cera in nomine Domini nostri & sancte Trio nstntis, us sis exterminatio diaboli & omnium conterbur nalium esus. Charms The ad iurati of the holy water & salt Exercisnius salis. Exorciso te creatn salis per De 'em cross, in what place soever it shall be lighted, or set, that that wicked devil may flee and tremble, and avoid altogether amazed and made a frayed, with all his ministers, from those habitations: and that he presume no more to trouble those which do serve God. And by and by after, there is yet more. Ido bless thee thou creature of war, in the name of our Lord God, and of the holy Trinity, to the end thou mayst be the extermination and driving away of the Devil, and all his complises. What mockery is this? must the name of GOD be so abused in Charms and Witchecraftes? For wherein do these benedictions and blessings differ from the charms and coniuratyons of sorcerers and witches, aswell as the Exorcism and adjuration of their holy water and Salt, which they put into it? What doth that Exorcisine and adjuration signiste? I exercise and adjure thee, thou Creature of Salt, by the living † vinum per Deum GOD, by the true † verum, per Deum GOD, by the holy † sanctum per Deum qui te per Eliseum prophetam in aquam mitti jussit, ut sanaresur steulitas aque ut effect●ris sale porcizatom. in salutem credentiam ut sisommtleas te 〈…〉. 〈…〉. 〈…〉 lulian the Apostate The Temple of Fortune The sp●●kings at the entrmg in & coming forth on the Temple GOD by the GOD which comnaunded that thou shouldst be put into the water, by the Prophet Eliseus for to heal the sterility and barrenness of the waters, to the end thou be made an adjured Salt, to the health of them that believe, to the end that thou mayst be unto all those which will take thee, health of soul and body, and that all fantasy, malice, dsuhtyle craft of the devil may avoid, and departed, from the place where thou shalt be shed abrcade, and all unclean spirit adjured, by him which shall judge the quick and the dead, and the world with fire. hilarius. Thou will't make us here by and by holy water. Sigh that thou hast made the Exorcisine, sing now the Oremus. Theophilus. There are no less blasphemics in it: But sith that thou will't have it thou shalt. O eternal God, altogether mighty, we humbly innocate and call upon thy infinite clemency, that it would please thee to bless † and sanctify † this creature of Salt, the which thou hast given for the use of mankind, to the end that it may be unto all those which will take it, health of soul and body, and that all that which shallbe touched with the same or sprinkled, should be without any filth, and all the assault and cembat of the spiritual enemy. hilarius. I have herded many Priesses, who in steed to say: Careatomni immundicia, do say, Careat omni mundicia. But they do use the figure which the grammarians do call, Apheresis: or for to speak better, the figure called the ignorance of the Grammar. I do verily think that all that which they sprinkle abideth well according to the prayer that they make, without cleanness. Wherefore those whom they do sprinkle, when they make their great Asperges me, may very well say, as Valentinian said who was the chief Captain in the Court of juhan the Apostate, but yet nevertheless a good Christian and afterwards choose Emperor. Thomas. What said he? hilarius. At a certain time as lulian entered into the Temple of Fortune, and that on both the sides of the doors the ministers and Priests of the Temple were, who (according as they made men to understand) thorough that sprinkling of that water did purge those that did enter in (after the same manner as cur priests do yet at this day to those which do enter or go forth of the church) Valentinian, who did go before lulian the Prince espied a drop of that water which had been shed upon his cloak, for which he was very angry, insomuch that he gave a Priest & Minister of the temple The sprinklings at the entering in and coming forth of the temple. A Priest being strooken. A potheme of Diogenes. a great stroke with his fist, saying: Thou hast defiled me & not purged me. He had as much good reason, as Diogenes, who at a certain time being entered into a filthy & stinking bath, said: Those which do bathe and wash themselves here, where do they wash them? Letting thereby to understand, that those which bathe and wash them in those baths, come forth more filthy than they were before they entered, and that they have more need to be washed then before, for they have gathered nothing but filthiness. But this apothegm and sentence never agreed better than with our Priests, which defile all those which go unto them how clean soever they be. But thou halt yet adjured and conjured but the salt. Yet remains the water. Theophilus. They do blaspheme yet moreover. For Exorcismus aqua. Exerciso te creatura aqua in in nomine Dei patris ¶ omnipotentis, & in no mine Domini jesus † Christi ●●●●, eiusdem domins nostri & in virtute Spiritus † sancti ut sias aqua exoressata ad effu gandam onme polestatem mimici, & ipsum inimicum eradicare & explantare valeas cum Angelis suis Apostaticis per virtutem etc. Hem. Huic elemento multimodis purification nibus prepara to, virtute tue bene † dictiones, infunde, ut ad abijcrendos demones morbos● pellendos divine gratie sumat officium, ut quic quid in damib vel in locis sidelum hec undarespersit, careat omnium immun dits. ●, liberat a noxla: non illic resideat spiritus pestilens, non aura corrumpens diseedant omnesinsidie latin tis inimite etc. Item ut 〈…〉, 〈…〉. The coniuting of the water A plaster for all sores. The virtue of jesus Christ Changed & referred to the creatures. The order and use of ceremomes changed. they pray that it may be adjured and conjured, for to drive away all the power of the enemy, and to tear and pluck up the enemies themselves, with all his apostate Angels, and for to drwe away the Devils, and diseases, and that all that which shall be sprickneled with it, either in the houses, or in the place of the faithful, should be without spot or hurt, that the spirit of pestilence do not remain and rest there, nor the infectious winds nor air: that all unclean spirits, and the terror of the venomous Serpent, and all the assaults and ambusshes of the evemye, and all evil, be altogether driven away. To conclude, they require that it may do all things. And so by that means we shall have no more need of jesus Christ. The Candles, the Ware, the Salt and the Water, will do all. Eusebius. You speak very evil. For you may well perceive how they yraye unto God, that he would give unto them that virtue, by his son jesus Christ, whom they acknowledge to be the author of all good things. Theophilus. If they acknowledge him for such a one, what need have they then of War, Salt and Water, for to obtain of him the goods which are necessary for our bodies and souls? Can he, or will he not do that without those things? will't they bind and tie his grace, virtue and power, and enclose & shut it in wax, salt and water, as they do require by their prayers? If those things be not charms, sorceries and enchantments, I know not what we may call charms, sorceries & enchantments. hilarius. When they do conjure and bless their wells and fontes & christening places, they gape over the water and blow in it, as though they had the holy Ghost within their throat, and that they would shut him in it. It is very needful, that that holy Ghost whom they do plunge and shut in that water can swim, or otherwise he shall be in danger of drowning. Theophilus. Even as they do with the water & war, so do they with the fire and incenie, upon Easter even, when they bless their Paschal of wax. Eusebius. Sigh that all that is done unto the honour of God, can it be but good? Theophilus. How can it be to the honour of God, to attribute unto the creatures, the honour which belongeth unto him? Or to shut up and limit his grace, virtue and power by them? And to overthrow and turn upside down altogether the order of God, and the use, for which he hath created them, for he hath not created the water, salt, fire & the ware for to purify the souls: for to orive away the devils and for to be remedies to all corporal and spiritual diseases: But he hath created the water, for to drink: for to wash away the filthiness of the body, for to refresh, sprinkle and help the natural necessities for which God hath ordained them. As much must we understand of the fire, salt and ware, and all other creatures, which cannot serve us, but according to their natural properties, and according to the ordinance of God. Wherefore whosoever altereth and changeth that order of nature, and use of the creatures, otherwise than he aught, attributing unto them any other property then that which God hath given unto them, he blasphemeth God, and is worthy to be taken for a Sorcerer and a Magician. For wherein doth a The difference between a good Philosopher & a charmer & Magician. good Physician and a Philosopher differ from a Charmer and Magician, but in this that those do follow the order of God in his creatures, and their natural disposition, and those héero do pervert and overthrow it, and will by words, charms and conjurations, change their nature and bring them to other effects, than God hath appointed them. Eusebius. By thy reasons thou dost also abolish the use of the Sacraments. Theophilus, That is an other thing, forasmuch as it is ordained of GOD, The Sacraments who may make his creatures to serve to what it pleaseth him. For he which is the Lord, may use them either after that order as he hath appointed them of nature: or miraculously, above nature. Although, that who so would attribute unto the water of Baptism, or unto the bread and wine in the lords supper, that which you do attribute unto your waters, salts, fires, inceuse, and wax, should be greatly to be rebuked. For all the virtue and efficacy of the Sacraments do depend of the promise of God, of which you have nothing in your ceremonies, invented and forged by your own sense and understanding, without the word of God, no more than the Magicians and enchanters have in their witchinges and invocations. Wherefore we cannot repute and take such superstitions following the manner & form as you do hold, but for such, as those have been of which you have taken the example. hilarius. But how can it be pleasing and agreeable to God, to forsake and renounce jesus Christ his son, and the Christianity, for to make themselves paynim or jews? Tell me Eusebius, if thou do not think that the Chaldeans and Persians are worthy to be accounted and taken for Idolaters, to have had The fire the god of the chaldees & Persians' the fire in so great admiration that they have worshipped it as God? Eusebius. Who doubteth of that? hilarius. Now what reason have you for to excuse yourself of that same Idolatry, more lawfully than they? Theophilus. That Idolatry is the most ancient which hath been almost amongst men, chiefly before that there was any use of Images: And I doubt not but that we refer it, unto the Idolatry of the fire, following also the opinion of Saint Jerome and of Hier. & Nicol. in Genes. 12. d. 27. Tareh. Abraham. Cal. Rodriguez lec. aut, li, 15. ca 15 Lyra, that which Moses calleth, Vr of the Chaldees. For notwithstanding that that name is taken for the place, wherein Tarch the Father of Abraham dwelled, yet nevertheless it is very like that that place hath taken his name of that fire, which the Chaldeans worshipped, as we see daily that many Towns and Villages do take their name of the Gods, Saints and Patrons which are there adored & honoured, as are S. Claudus, S. Hippolyta, Saint Denis, Saint james, & others innumerable. For Vr, signifieth in the Hebrew and Chaldee tongue, fire and furnayse. And unto that agreeth well that which is spoken off in the book of josua, that Tareh the Father of Abraham was an Idolater, although josua. 24. a. 2 there be no mention made that he worshipped Images and Idols: But it was because he was defiled and infected with that Idolatry of the Chaldees, for the which Abraham departed from his country, in not worshipping the fire in steed of the true God. hilarius. That Idolatry hath not been only among the Chaldees and Persians: But it is also spread abroad among other Nations, who of long time have in like manner worshipped the fire under the name of Vesta, who was in great honour and estimation among the Trojans before the war of Troy, and from thence hath been with the other Gods, carried into Italy by Aeneas, and so came up the custom to keep a continual fire in his Temple at Rome within a Boar or Pyxe, as they do now the holy Livi. lt. 1. & 5 Macro. Satur lt. t. c. t. 12 plu. in Num. ex Camd ovid. Fast. 1 &. 6. host. For that cause the poets many times do call it, the Trojans fire, and the fire of Laomedon, the founder and builder of Troy. The Greeks also did the like in Athens and Delphos. And Servius wituesseth that they kept it also in the Temple of jupiter and of Minerva, by which they would understand the earthly heaven and the celestial fire. And St●abo Stral●. li. 9 hath written almost the like, that is to say, that there was an old Temple of Minerva Poliade in which was kept a Lamp continually burning, and there was a Covent of Nouns, I think that Pope Sabinianus did Plat. in vit. Sab●nt Cal. aul. lec. li, 15. ca 14. take example of the samo, when that he constituted and ordained that Lamps should be continually kept burning in the Temples, as Platine and Volaterran do witness. Theophilus. If they had the like that of which Saint Augustine maketh mention, which was inextinguible in a certain Temple of Venus, which the paynim August. de cin Des. l●. 21. c. 6 had, they would make of it a great miracle, and would esteem it for a goodly relic. For he saith, that it contimeth always burning in the air abroad, without ever being put out or quenched, either with the wind, water, or W any thing that one can do to it. Therefore it was called inextinguible. hilarius. It must be, if that be true, that it wae artyffcially made, or else by magycall Arte. But I think that they would make as great an account if they had such fire, as that same which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Argos, the which they did say, cell from keaven. I demand of thee friend Theophilus, what thinkest thou hath been the first cause of that Idolatry. Theophilus. I cannot perceive that they have any other cause, but the same which hath engendered all the other Gods among the Panyms, which have Phin. li, 1. ca 1 delfied and called Gods, all the creatures of whom men do feel, aid and help. seeing then the great poritie which is in the fire, and the great vitlytie that men did receive thereby, and how necessary it was Idolatry of the sire & of the Planets. Lue. Flor, in Numa. Flat, de Pbilo. dogm. VA in Camillo. unto man's life, and how it represented the fires and celestial lyghfes, of the sun and of other planets and stars (whom mey have also ●olden for Gods, because of their great beauty and utility) they did in like manner think that they had just occasion to hold and take the fire for a God, which they did see to be of one self nature with the celestial fire, which always moveth and giveth life unto all things as the soul of them. They had yet certain other occasions, in that that the holy Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire, and calleth him, a consuming fire: and that God appeareth sometime: in the likeness God compared to the fire. Deut. 4. d. 24. Hebr. 12. g. 19 Exo. 3. a. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. 3. Reg. 18. f. 33 of fire, and that the fire came down from heaven oftentimes, for to consume the sacrifices of the holy patriarchs and Prophets. They had more just occasion to confirm themselves in that opinion, and more goodlyer appearance for to allow their religion, than the Papists have for their Images and Idols. For we cannot deny, but that the fire is a lively Image of God, which showeth forth and reprosenteth unto us itself more lively, than all the Idols which ever were in the world. And therefore God would appear in the Rxo. 3. 2. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. likeness of fire, and represent his gifts and graces, his virtue and power by the same: the which he would never do by Idols and Images, and would never appear in them, nor speak, nor do any virtue or miracles by them, but hath left the same for the devil, Images the instruments of the Devil who is served with such instruments, the which God hath altogether rejected and cursed, and hath defamed them by defamed titles, calling them filthiness, vanity, The titles of the Images. lying, nothing, abomination and other like names, which oftentimes are rehearsed in the books of the Prophets. Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Persians good occasion to prefer it above all the other. For sith that all the other were either of wood and of slone, or of gold, silver or other metals, he did melt, burn and consume The power of the fire about the others gods. all, insomuch that there was not one, which could resist him. hilarius. Xerxes hang of Persia declared it very well Xetxes. unto the Greeks, when he came into Greece with so The temples burned In Asia great an army. For he burned all the Temples, Idols and Images of Asia, except the same of Diana the Goddess Solin. ca 53. Temple of Diana the Ephestan Act. 19 e. 24 Strab. ●●. 14, Ph. li. 16. c. 41. &. ●●. 36. ca 34 of the Ephesians, because of the excellent beauty of the same, and for the cunning building which was therein, that it was counted among the seven most chiefest works which was in the world, which for their admirable and excessive beauty, building and cunning, were called the seven miracles of the world. Thomas. Wherefore did Xerxes the same? hilarius. Because that the Persians had no Temples, The Persians without Temple and Images. nor Images, and did think that one did great injury unto the majesty of God, which is infinite, to chutte and limit him by the work made with man's hand, In like manner Plutarch doth writ, that the Romans have bad their Temples without Images (after that the city In Num●. Dionys. Halicar. in Numa. was builded) 170. years, because that they were taught by the king Numa, that God was an invisible spirit, which never was created. And notwithstanding that they do honour the fire under the name of the Goddess Vesta, yet nevertheless they never made Image for to represent the one nor the other, but were content to keep that holy fire, as hath been said, and as it appeareth by the witness of Ovid, saying. Within the Temple fire remained, Ovid. Fast. ● and still unquenched did lie, The fire and Vesta wanted form, to show their shapes thereby. And a little afterwards he saith. By Art of Syracusia framed, there hangs in the air, A little globe that represents, the form of heavens fair. Thomas. If the Persians did take the for God, they did not altogether without reason, if they would not have locked & shut him up. For he doth open the gates, although that one would shut him up & knoweth to go out every way. hilarius. The experience hath been well showed in the Temple of Diana the Ephesian. For notwithstanding that Xerxes spared it, yet nevertheless his GOD The temple of Diana burned Gehlia. Herostrotus Soli. ca 53 would not spare it, thorough whose aid Herostratus did bring it to pass, who did set it on fire, and bourned it altogether. Thomas. Wherefore did he that? hilarius. He hath confessed himself, that he did it for covetousness of renown, to that end that men Covetous of renown should speak of him. For he never did any virtuous act whereby he might get a name. And therefore he took upon him to do such an act, to the end that the remembrance of his name should be eternal amougest men. Theophilus. Herostratus did let the Ephesians well to understand, that the fire had more virtue than their Diana. hilarius. Thou understandest not the cause, and how the paynim did excuse the Goddess. Thou oughtest to understand, that the very same night that The nativitle cf Alexander Olympiss. Herostratus did set the Temple of Diana on fire, Olympias the mother of great Alexander, was in havayle with child, & because that Diana was go thither for to help her travail to bring forth Alexander, she could not defend her Temple. For thou dost very well know that women did call upon her in their travail. And therefore she being absent, and busied about Olympias and her son Alexander, she could not help her Temple nor resist the God of the Persians, no more than the Gods of our Priests can at this day resist it. For that cause the Chaldeans did marvelously beast themselves against all other Patyons, saying, that there were none that had such a God as there's, which consumeth all other. Yet neverthelesss if the tale or history be true which Suidas Suiadas in dict Canop. God Canopus. did tell of a Priest of Canopus, he played or showed them a fine feat, of whom he hath written that the Priest of god Canopus which was adored and worshipped of some in Egypt, seeing the arrogancy and pride of the Chaldeans, fearing also to lose his good there and far, The craft and deceit of the Priest of Canopus. Cal. Rho. lec. aut. li. 15. c. 15. if the majesty of his God were diminished, devised this craft and discepte. In Egypt they used to make waterpottes of earth, having many holes for to distill the water and to make it more pure, because that the waters of Egypt are much troubled and full of mud and slime that Priest did take one of those water pots, and stopped subtly with ware all the holes thereof, afterwards painted it with diverse colours, so that one could not perceive it. That being done, filled it with water, afterwards did cut of the head of an old Image, the which he set upon that great water pol, so cunningly that it was like to his god Canopus. After that, the Chaldeans came, who would prove the power of that fire of their God, against the God Canopus. The fire them being kindled, and Canopus being cast into it, after that manner and sort as he was trimmed and appareled by his Priest. Now whilst that on either sides men did behold which of those two Gods should have the victory, the wax with which the holes were stopped, feeling the heat of the fire, did begin to melt, & the water to drop out, which quenched the fire. And so by that means Canopus got the victory thorough the craft of the Priest, and was judged worthy of The victory of Canopus divine honours. Thomas. Behold a merry jest to laughed at, at Caster. hilarius. You laugh at it, but the holy fathers do say things which are not so good as that, and your priests do make miracles. which are not yet so subtle, by the which yet nevertheless the poor people are abused. But let us consider a little wherein the Papists differ from the one The fire & ●●ter 〈◊〉 gods of the Papists 〈◊〉 on of the paseall tire. Rat d. ui. off. li 6. Rab de benecer. and the other of which we have spoken off, if they have not the fire and the water for their gods. For what doth signify the benediction and consecration of the Are which they make upon Caster even, with their magical ceremonies? For at the beginning of divine service, all the since which is in the Temple must be put out. Afterwards they must a new, by striking upon a stone with a piece of steel, or with a Crystal set against the sun: Afterwards they must keep it, not with all kinds of wood, but with the branches of the Vine. There is here more to do then in the charms of the Enchanters. And to what end do all those sorceries serve? Eusebius. Now darest thou so to blaspheme and call the divine service Sorcery? which was done to represent, The interpretation of the Benediction of the new nee that the fire of the old law is put out, by the death and passion of jesus Christ, who hath accomplished and fulfilled all the ceremonies of the same, and he is the slone & the Crystal which hath been strooken upon the side, and hath kindled for us a new fire of the holy Ghost. hilarius. Me thinks that the interpretation should be two true, if you said that the same signifieth, that the Priests go about all that they can to quench the fire of the word of God, which jesus Christ the light of the world, hath brought in the earth, for to take in hand a new, and Luc. 12. g. 49. john. 1. a 9 & 8. b. 9 a. 5. ler. 5. d. 14. & 23. s. 29 for to make us, in steed of the Purgatory, which is by that blood of jesus Christ, a new jesus Christ, and a new Purgatory in fire, to the end that all at one moment or instant do declare themselves both jews and paynim. Theophilus. It is most true, that God commanded The signification of the perpetual fire of the burned offering levit. 6. b. 13. the Priests of the old law, that the fire of the bourned offering or holocauste should be always kept burning in the Temple. But that was to signify, that the fire of jesus Christ, and his offering and sacrifice is eternal, and sufficient for to purge all the sins of the world and that Heb. 9 c. 11. & 10. e. 11. 1. Pet. 4. c. 13 we aught all to be partakers of his cross & tribulations which are signified by the fire in the Scripture: and we aught all to travail as much as lieth in us, to keep and maintain that fire of jesus Christ: the evangelical mynistry and the faith in his death and passion in the Christian Church. For as much then as jesus Christ hath perfectly and wholly accomplshed and fulfilled that which by that fire was signified, & the it must be accompilshed in us spiritually, not in outward appearance, what need have we to invent new ceremonies and new jewishness: were it not as good to keep them to the old, sith that they will play the jew with the jews? hilarius. But which is worse, so play the Panim with the paynim, of whom their manner of doings approacheth nearer than of the ancient jewish laws. For as Plutarch witnesseth, in Athens & Delphos, where the greeks Plutus in Num. in like manner do keep a perpetual fire, if peradventure it were put or went out, they must kindle a new and very orange, taken from the Sun. In like manner also hath Macrob. Satur. li. ●. ca 12 The new fire of the paynim Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 1. The fire of Vesta. Plut. in Camillo. Ovid. Fast. 6. Macrobius written, that the first day of March, the Romans kindled a new fire upon the altar of the Goddess Vesta, the which fire must be kept by the Mestales, the nunues of Vesta always burning in her Temple, like unto ours at this day. Whereunto agreeth in like manner the witness of Ovid, saying. Men say that when the holy fire in temple ceased to burn. It was the use from time to time with new to serve the turn. And if it happen that thorough their negligence it be put out, they shallbe grievously punished. Theophilus. One may vanquish them by their own confession, that they have not received those tradition of that Apostles. For they themselves confess, that the custom to bless the Paschal taper and such manner of doings, have The paschal Taper Rat. divi off. li. 6. Rab. de den. cer Zozmie and Theodorus The most puissant god of the Priests been instituted by Pope Zozme and Theodorus the first. hilarius. We must not be abashed though they make great provision both of Oil & War for to keep always that fire in their churches. For they have no greater nor puissanter God than he, of whom only they demaimd aid, invocate and call upon for to maintain their Religion, & all their other Gods. For what other refuge have they for to fight against the truth and to desende lyings, but the Faggots and Fire? Wherefore me thinks that they should have more reason, if they followed the example of the Persians, who notwithstanding that they condemned those which had temples and Idols, yet The holy and ●●ered fire of the Persias. ●rs. Mark. t. call. R●ls. lec. 〈◊〉. 8 aa. 2. nevertheless they had a custom, that the kings sheulde 'cause the sire to be carried before them upon an Norse back, the which is called by the Nistoriographers OriMasda, that is to say, the holy fire? or the sacred sire. They also carried it in procession all abouts, in the same manner as the Papists did carry the holy hoasten Christ's day, and as the Pope causeth his God to be carried before him upon a white ambling nag, to the end he may The holy ho●● The pracction of the serst. God and the ho y fir e. give the more at his ease: altheugh that he esticme himself more worthy, sith that he causeth himself to be carted of men, and his God of beasts. The pecple also bsed to adore and worship that holy fire, as they do at this day the holy host. And when they do carry it in procession. 365. Priests did go before him, to the end there be as many in number, as there be days in the year, doing the savie in the honour of the son, who by his fire giveth the light of the day in the earth. Therefore also they carried it with them in the war. And when they must remove the host, there was upon the king's Tabernacle, a little Image of the sun, enclosed within a round hor of Crystal, which shined and gave a great light. When the procession of the holy and eternal fire began to march and go forth, they carried if before all, upon the Altars of silurr the which the wisest and holiest men whom they called pagitians, did follow. After them. 365. young men, being clothed in Purple and read, for to represent the colour of the fire. I believe that after their erample, the Pope and the Cardinals are pet clothed in read, in witness, that either they are men of blood, being all bloody with the blood of the righseous and poor innocents: or else that they are as a consuming fire in this world, which consumeth all, for to make the poor faithful fear, which will not consent unto their blasphemies and tyranny: or in sign and token that they are the Cooks & fire brands of hell, for do tossed and broil the roar sules, & that they have the tharge of those iusernall sirs and of Purgatory. There was in like manner in that processiou, charets, hearses and shrines, all tryumed and engraved in gold and silver, for to carry and bear the other gods and their Images, the which they have afterwards learned to make, as the other paynim by succession of time did. There were also, which carried goodly rods and staves of gold, as are the crosses of our Abbots and bishops: and the staves which they do carry in procession, with the Cross. And those were also clothed with white, as our Priests are. Wherefore sith that our Priests do follow them almost in all things, me thinketh that they should have more show of appearance to keep the holy fire in the pyr or bor, and to worship it and cause it to be worshipped, as their God that they have made of stour. For this without the other, can have no great virtue, sith that the fore must defend them. Wherefore they do evidently declare, that they esteem it more puissant and more strong, sith that they have recourse unto it. Wherefore one may well answer unto them, that which of old time hath been answered by a certain man, of the pron and of the gold, who was demanded which of them both was the strongest. Thomas. Pée thinketh that it is the gold, for it doth The strength of the gold and of Yren. all things. hilarius. But what can the gold do without that iron? hath it not need of the iron for to keep & defend it? For who is most strongest, either he which keepeth, or he which must be kept. Thomas. There is in th' at a Sophistry. hilarius. There is no need to allege sophistry. For the thing is such in beritie. There is nething but the foolish opinion & persuasion of men, which maketh them to judge otherwise. For as Saint Augustine says, what Augustin, are all the metals but earth? what difference is there then between the iron and the gold, but that the one is The gold pale a blacker earth, and the other more yollow & pale? wherein he declareth that he is more fearful than the uson. Thomas. It is not without cause that he is plae, for he hath many enemies which do lie in wait to take him. hilarius, And therefore what shall he do, if he hadue not the iron for to defend him? For the iron, defendeth him, and the iron taketh him, and which is more, of which should one set best by, either of the iron or of the gold? Can we aswell labour and till the land with the gold as with the iron, and make that which we make of the iron? Thomas. It is most true we cannot. But yet neverthe ignorance and foolish opinton of men, which esteem it to be so, because that the colour seemeth unto them more fairer and that it is not so plenty as iron? But take away the opinion, and it shall be but earth as the iron. as much may we say of the God of the Priests, and of the fire. For I assure thee that if the sire did not make them to fear him, that it should never have come unto such honour as it is come unto, and it should be impossible to keep it in such digmtie. Furthermore, if the sire of Purgatory were not of some balue, it should not be so dear Perchandise, nor so precious. But what is the cause that men have it in such reverence, and do forsake the living God, and the Saviour jesus Christ, for to worship the worltes of their hands, but the false opinion wherewith their understanding is corrupted & marred? For bestoes the word of God, all the residue is but opiluons and lyings. Theophilus. They should have no less occasion to worship the fire, than the bread, and to make it a God. For if that fire can purge & sanctify that body & soul, it is God The fise made a God. Rom. 4. 2. 5 Est. 43. b. 11 If it purge and sanctify, it justifieth & saveth. If it instiffe & save, it is then God. For there is none other iustifter & samour but him only. And it is no harder for him to purge & save man, then to created & make him. The work of that redemption is no harder, then that of the creation. Wherefore if the one appertaineth unto God alone, so doth that other. hilarius. There is yet another point, the is, that the fire is the principal creator of the Priests God. For without it they cannot seethe nor heat any thing. It hath power to make & unmake, as it hath been well showed forth in the A true lustory of the priests god burned. year of our Lord 1542. in a little billage which is three, miles from Castres' in Languidoc, where the poor white god was burned, upon holy Thursoay, atnight, with all his Tabernacle, his house and all the Tepistry work and hangings. Thomas. Now happened that great misfortune? hilarius. Now must understand, the that night before the day of holy friday, they had a custom that all the families & householders went to bisit the poor god, which was there detained & kept prisoner, with a great number of Tapers, torches & lamps which they carried ●● great devotion, saying: let bs go see our God, which is at rest. Thomas. To what purpose did they the? hilarius, Think the it was to comfort him, because the upon those days there he was somuch tormented among the jews. Thomas. Are there jews in the country? hilarius. Why, is there a country where there is none? Thomas. Not many among that Christians. hilarius. Poor then in any other place, although there were none but the pricsts which always & daily, thorough their blasphemies, do crucify jesus Christ: towards who they show themselves a great deal worse than the Jews. For they have crucifted him but once, but those, here do crucify him every day. Thomas. Ketourne to thy matter, & expound unto us how the fire there kindled. hilarius. Now must understand, the in disiting himm in such fort, they brought that fire so near, the it kindled & burned all. Tewes among the christiaus Now when they had found the nert day the goodly stur the they had made, god knoweth what piteous, lamctations, weepings & cryings there was. Tamus, Ositis & Adonis were never so bewailed & lameted. They did sing other lamétations, than those of jeremy, saying: O how wicked are we, all the world will redeoche & check us, that we are worse than the Jews. For he was crucified among them, but he hath been burned amongst us. We must not be abashed, though they burn the Lutherians, sith that they burn their God. Yet nevertheless that aught not so se●me unto them strange. For they have used it of long time, and have set and put a Canon among the Cautels of their Mass, which commandeth, that when the host shallbe rotten or mouldy in the pyr, or that the worms, Spiders and Mice have touched and eaten it, that it should be burned, and that the ashes should be ●ut in the reliquare or holy place. The which thing was once objected and propounded unto a Priest, amongst a great company of people, in a house at Geneva. But he was not asraid to absolve the question, nor he was not so much offended in burning their God, as those here. For he answered directly, if he suffered himself to be crucified of the jews, cannot he suffer himself to be burned of us? Thomas. The resolution was clerk like, & like a good Theologian. But what was done in the end with these which burned it and suffered it to be burned. hilarius. There was great debate between the Priests and the procurors of the Temple. For the Priest did lay the fault upon the procurors. The procurors on the contrary, confessed that they had the charge of the Temple, but not of the body of God, which would not suffer him to be touched and handled but of the Priests. And said, that although they had been present, yet they dared not take Exconci. Aurel An other history. The fire kindled in the temp●e of Vesta Metellus. Dyont. in Numa. ovid. Fast. 6 Palla lium. The hand kercheife of Chamber. him from the fire. Yet nevertheless I think that if they had seen that goodly stir they should have been entorced to have taken him out, and would have had some compassion of him. They would have done as Cecilius Metellus, who seeing the fire kindled in the Temple of Vesta, wherein was the Palladium in great danger to be burned, did cast himself in the midst of the slaming fire for to save it, or other wise it had been burned, as the holy handkerchief of Chambery. Metellus made it a great conscience to touch it with his hand, because that it was not permitted to men to enter into that holy Reliquare, nor to approach or come near that holy Palladium, but for the holy Virgin's Vestals, the nuns of Vesta. But when he perceived that they could do nothing but weep, without helping any thing at all, he adventured himself, for to deliver it from the fire, the which did so burn his eyes, that he did loose his sight. Pli. li. 7. c. 43 Thomas What was that Palladium? hilarius. An Image of the Goddess Pallas, the which the paynim believed to be fallen ovid. Fast. 3 from heaven, as Numa made them believe of his Ancyles and of other seducers of the Diana of the Ephesians. It was brought from Troy, and the Romans had Ancyla, Luil. li. 1. Diana of the Ephesians. Act. 19 c. 24. such an opinion, that all the good hap and evil hap of their Empire depended upon the same, & that it should always flourish & prospero all the while that they had that Image at Rome and that they did keep it well. Therefore they kept it so diligently, and all the counsel was amazed, when they saw the fire within her Temple. Theophilus. The Priests have no less fear of their God, of whom also dependeth all their dignity and majesty of their Empire. hilarius. It is very true, but they have a remedy which the Romans had not. For if their Palladium had been once burned, they could not have an other, as those of Chambery have done of their handkercheefe: And jupiter would not sand them a new from heaven. But the Priests do make as many Gods as they list, and make them to come down from heaven when it pleaseth them. But for to return to our matter, after that that poor God was burned, there was two great disputations. The first was, how one might discern the ashes of the host, from those of his Tabernacle. Some held Disputations of the ashes of the host an opinion, that one could not do it, others to the contrary, affirmed that the same was very easy, saying that God did that honour unto his body, that the ashes of that should be whiter, more softer and smother. Now when they had gathered together the smoothest and softest. There was yet an other disputation more barder, to wit, in what place they should put those holy ashes. For dyscussing of that matter, they must hold a counsel of the wisest and most prudent men, in the city of Castres', in the house of Monser of Thaurines, to the which was called master john de Bosco a jacopin, a Doctor in divinity, born in Anaxerra, who then preached that Lent at Castres'. There came also the Convent of the jacopins, and old reverent father a teacher in divinity, bringing with him a book, which they called the third part of Saint Thomas. The opinion of the greatest part was, that those holy ashes should be put in the Reliquary. Theophilus. It was a new practise to bring money unto the Priests. For on the one side their God had drawn his part and his ashes from the other ashes. hilarius. That was sufficient to heal their purses of Apostumes, and to make them have the flire in their bellies. But de Bosco counseled them, that they should not put that Reliquary in any high place, for to avoid the danger of committing idolatry which might come thereby. For he declared unto them according to their own doctrine, that the body of Christ was not burned, but the Accidents, and that those ashes were not of the body, but of the accidents. Wherefore we must not worship them, sith that the body is flown an other way. Ercept they will yet keep him prisoner within the dust and ashes. The which thing should seem very strange, and full of blasphemies, yea, after the doctrine of the Schoolmen. And therefore he counseled them for a clére resolution, that they The accidens burned should bury those ashes behind the high altar, in some dark corner, and that they should take heed they put not any title upon it, nor Epitaph, as men do upon other sepulchres. For it should seem very strange to writ: here lieth the Lord jesus, or the ashes of the body of god. For there is none so ignorant among the Christyans but knoweth that jesus Christ hath not been burned, and that he lieth no more in the sepulchre: But that he is raised and ascended into heaven, where he is on the right hand of God his Father, from thence he shall come to judge both the quick and the dead. Wherefore one may say unto them, as the Angel said unto the women: he is risen, he is not hear. Theophilus. I believe that that God of the Priests defendeth himself as well from the fire, as he defendeth himself from the mice, worms & spiders, when they Accidens with Out substaivice do eat him, and that even as they live of the accidents without the substance, so hath the fire burned the accidents without the substance. And according to the Philosophy of the scholastical Divines, against the sentence of Aristotle, and of all the old Philosophers, one may easily find accidents, qualities and quantities, without substance, without body, and subject. Yet nevertheless if they did well consider the virtue of the fire, they should be contrained to allow mine opinion. And I would to God that they would worship the fire, The trne fire. Mat. 3. c. li. Act. 2. 3. ●. which hath the only virtue to purge sins, to wit, the same with which jesus Christ baptized, which is the holy Ghost. hilarius. I do also desire that they would worship that water of life, the which jesus Christ hath promised, which is the same holy Ghost. But they had rather make the material water a God, of which we may lawfully say, as we have said of the fire. For if they do make a God of the fire, they must in like manner make a Goddess of the water, to the end they may have Gods and Goddesses, & a Vulcan, a Vesta, Thetis or Amphittite, The gods of the fire and water. Leucothea or Naiades, & Nymphs, goddesses of the waters, as well as the paynim had, for many times they attribute unto it as much virtue as to the fire, & sometimes more. For if their water do quench & put out the fire of purgatory, it hath as much virtue & more, than God Canopus, furthermore, what difference is there between their aquatical theology, and the same of the Ibolatrous Greeks, the which the Romans have learned of them, The aquatical theology even as the Papists of the ancient Romans? As we may judge by that which Ovid hath written, saying: Our old men thought and did believe, Fast. 2. and in that hope did devil, That sin by purging loosed was, Purgations. and so let not to tell. Greece was the first this order gave, and therewith did suppose: Offenders to be rid from sin, and so let not to gloze. Theophilus. That doctrine should he good if it referred itself to the purgation of our sins, made or done by jesus Christ and that it extended unto his blood: But their thought is altogether otherwise. hilarius. They understand that of their purgations, of which we have spoken off, and chief of the water. Of which superstition, the paynim themselves do mock and have well had the judgement, to know that the same was but vanity, as we have already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes. And the verses of Persius a 'bove alleged pretend to the same, as well as those here of Ovid, which I will now rehearse. Ah, too light credit do they give, Fast. 2. which do suppose and think, That that same fault of murder should, by water be extinct. Eusebius. We are of an opinion altogether differing from the same. For we do not believe, that thorough the sprinkling of the holy water, the mortal Venial sins put away by water. Mortal sins. Mat 12. c. 32 1. john. 5. c. 13. sins are put away, but only the venial sins. Theophilus. They are not then defaced and taken away by the same. For the sins are not mortal, but unto those which sin unto death, and against the holy Ghost, and which persever in their sins, without doing repentance, and running unto the mercy of God. But unto Gods elect all sins are venial: not by their nature, but by the grace of jesus Christ. For there is no sin be it never so little, which of his nature is not mortal, and worthy of eternal death, if jesus Christ make them not venial, and capable of pardon, to those Venial sins. Rom. 8. a. 1. which believe in him, to whom there is no more condemnation. Wherefore I am abanshed of your Doctors, which take so much pains to purge the venial sins. And amongst others the sprinkling of the holy water: 4. Sent. dist. Tho. par. 4. q. 7. ar. 2. & in Ma 6. and that they do allow so much the exorcisms and conjurations, namely of Thomas of Aquin, which yet nevertheless do nothing differ from charms and sorceryes. But I am yet more abashed, of that Canon, so Pope Alexan. 5. de consec. dist 3. cap. aquam. full of blasphemy which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift, whom you account to be the first finder out and inventor of holy water, who saith after this manner. We do bless the water sprinkled or mingled with salt among the people, to this end that all being sprinkled therewith, should be sanctified and purified: the which thing we command all Priests to do so. For it the ashes of a young Heifer being sprinckeled upon the people do sanctify and make them clean, by a stronger reason the water being mingled with salt and hallowed with divine prayers doth sanctify and make them clean? And if the salt being A comparison between theasshet of a Heifer & the●roater 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 cast in the water by the Prophet Eliseus, hath healed and hoplen the barrenness thereof, how much more the water being hallowed with divine prayers, doth take away the sterility of hamayne things, and sanctyfieth and purgeth the filthiness, and multiplieth and increaseth the other goods, and putteth away the assaults of the Devil, and defendeth men from fantasies. O Lord God, what greater blasphemy can one hear, is not that to turn all the word of God upside down, and to overthrow all the virtue of the death and passion of jesus Christ? That which the holy Apostle attributeth unto the death and blood of jesus Christ is it not here altogether most evidently given unto the salt The blood of jesus.: Heb. 9 d. 13 levit. 16. c. 14 and water? For in steed that the Apostle saith. If the blood of Dren and of Goats and the ashes of an Heifer, when it was sprinckeled, purified the unclean, as touching the purifying of the flesh: Now much more shall the blood of Christ (which thorough the eternal spirit, offered himself without spot to GOD) purge your consciences from dead works, for to serve the living God? In steed that the Apostle saith, the blood of jesus Christ, those here do put the salt the water. But I will argue and reason after an other sort against Alexander, If the ashes of an Heifer and the holy water that they do make, by the ordinance and commandment of God, cannot purge the conscience, and can screw but for a certain carnal purification, for to keep certain discipline in the jewish Church, and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the blood of jesus Christ aught to be in the Christian Church, but it was necessary, that the only son of God should shed out his own blood, which only hath that virtue, how the salt & the salted water conjured by the priests, without having either law, commandment or promise of God do it better. hilarius. I should have been greatly ashamed to have stayed so long upon those vain & chidish ceremonies, but that I did see that the most wisest, and the most greatest Doctors have been abused and deceived & are fallen into so many execrable blasphemies. Thomas. How hath that ben possible? If it be so as you say, I am greatly abashed how that could be done. Theophilus. It hath taken as good effect among the superstitious Christians, as among the paynim. For even as the paynim & hypocrites, have been the Apes of the Patirarches The error of the idolaters & hypocrites. Prophets and true servants of God, so have those been here. For all that which the paynim did, did seem to have some colour and imitation of the law which God gave unto his people. For that which they sacryficed in the mountains, that they caused the chylbrens to pass thorough the fire, & sacrificed them unto Moloch, and the washings that they had, did seem to be taken of the custom of the ancient patriarchs, and of the people of Israel, after that sort as the Turks do The watchings of the Turks. follow them at this day: who do spend and bestow a great part of the time, about such wasshinges and Ceremonies. But there is great difference. For although they follow somewhat in outward appearance, the works of the ancient servants of God, yet nevertheless The false imitation of the works of the Saints. they fail greatly, in that that they do it without the commandment of God, following only their foolish santasie and opinion: And they do it not in such faith, to such intent, and with such a spirit, as they did. For they did them to tender obedience unto the commandment of GOD, the which Obedienco was unto him a sacrifice more agreeable, than the Ceremony, which for that end was ordained: Now these here cannot scrive God by such obedience, sith that they have no commandment: But they do offend thorough disobedience, despising the means that he hath commanded, and choosing others contrary unto his will. Furthermore the true Israelites did not think to be purified by those outward things, but had regard only unto the blood of jesus Christ, by them represented: And they trusted but only in the mercy of God. But those ●éere do attribute the virtue unto the outward work, and to the creature, saying that such Ceremonies, and Sacraments, have efficacy by the virtue of the work done: Or if thou lovest rather in their natural language. Ex virtute operis operati. Now Ex virtute operis oper. ●●● if the Prophets have rebuked and condemned the vipocrites who have put the whole trust of their health and Esa. 1. 2. 12 salvation unto the ceremonies commanded by the law of God, and have rejected and reproved their sacrifices and purifications, how much more are our hypocrites to be condemned, which do not only make a god of their works, but which is worse, do make the same of the works which are nothing at all commanded of God, but altogether condemned. hilarius. We may rightly compare them unto those good merchants, of whom Ovid maketh mention after this manner. Hard by Capena gate there is Fast. 5. of Mercury a well, Wherein is virtue rare and strange as cunning folks do tell. For merchants do thither repair with pitcher ready pight, And therewithal do water draw, by virtue of whose might The Laurel branch is dropping wet, and all those things that shall By Masters right be set to sale, are sprinkled therewithal. And after that his head is wet by sprinkling of the bays, Unto the Gods in wont wise his prayer thus he says: Wash off (saith he) my perjury of those times that are past, Wash of my false and feigned words my falsehood now off cast. Because that they hold and account Mercurius for the God of the thieves, it seemeth unto them that the one of the thieves will easily absolve the other, and that the larcenies, perjuries and rapines shall be washed away as soon as they shall cast a little water upon them. Wherefore our Papists knowing that they have the like God in the earth, do the like. Theophilus. Therefore it is more than need to cry with Esay: Be you washed, Be you The true wasshing. Esa. 1. d. 16 clean. But how? Put away the evil from your thoughts, before mine eyes, says the Lord. And with jeremy: O Jerusalem, wash thy heart from wickedness. And with jere 4. d. 14 Mat. 27. c. 25. jesus Christ: Thou blind Pharisie, cleanse first the inside of the Cup and Platter that the outside of them may be clean also. Give alms of that you have, and behold all thing is clean unto you. And therefore must we say Luc. 11. 5. 41 with David: O purge me with Isop and I shallbe clean, wash thou me and I shallbe whiter than Snow. For Psa. 51. b. 9 The true holy water. The sprinkling of Isope. there is none, which can make that holy water, but he only, who hath put the ministry of his Gospel in his Church, which is the true sprinkling of Isop, which thorough the preaching of jesus Christ crucified, sprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious blood our souls and consciences. hilarius. There is nothing truer, then that thou sayest, as I will yet declare more particularly First, as touching the purifications & sprinklings of water, that is already too much proved, & of the same is taken that which Ovid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife, willing to enter into the Temple of the Goddess Themis, of whom he speaketh after this manner, after the translation of the English Poet. Whose sacred liquor strait they took ovid. Meta. 1 and sprinkled with the same Their heads and clotheses: and afterward to Themis Chapel came. In like manner Ovid rehearsing the things which were Fast. 2. called Februa, because that the ancients used it in their purgations, maketh mention of the will, salt, meal, and bowghes which they caused to be consecrated for divers purifications of men, beasts and houses: the which things the Papists have almost altogether the like. For besides the water and the fire, the war and the salt, they have as many holy wolles, holy linen clotheses and sacred vestments. They have the holy bread, and the bread of Saint The holy bread Q of S. Agathe Agathe, which hath also great power: and the holy bowghs upon the day of Palm Sunday, and of Caster flowers. But the paynim do approach nearer to the ancient law of Moses in their holy ashes, than the Papists. For The holy ashes Aum. 19 4. 1 the jews did it with a read Cow, young and which never carried yoke. The paynim did there's with a young Calf, newly taken from his mother's belly, the which the most ancientest of the virgins of the Goddess Vesta, as we may say the mother of the Prioress burned in that holy fire which was made upon the altar of the said goddess, as it appeareth by these verses of Ovid saying. The elder virgin amongst them then, those calves doth burn with fire Fast. 4 To have the ashes not to seek, when time shall then requited. That when the feast of Pales doth, approach at hand so fast, The people may be pure and clean, when it is on them cast. Theophilus. I doubt not but that Panish superstition was some thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that which was done by the people of God, unto his honour, and containing the mysteries of the redemption: was done in idolatry and superstition without faith among the paynim: as it is now among the Papists. hilarius. I am of thy opinion. But yet nevertheless me thinketh that the paynim have more show and colour, for to defend them by the word of God. But because that that holy ashes was done in the day of the feast of the Goddess Pales, and that I have yet to speak of otter Goddesses here before mentioned, let us return unto the feast of Candlemas and afterwards let us fall again to the ashes, after that I shall have a little followed certain other conformities, the which I have already Cal. lee. aut li. 17 ca 18. some thing began. I have already touched how you do attribute the same titles unto the virgin Mary, Titles of the Goddesses of the paynim. which the Idolaters have given unto juno, Diana, Ceres and Proserpina, whom they have called some of them Queens of Heaven, the others Ladies without Luc. 1. e. 48. Our Lady. a tail. She called herself the handmaid and servant of the Lord, and you do call her our Lady, as though there were in Heaven Lords and Ladies, as there is in the Earth: and a King and a Queen as there is a Sun and a Moon. Theophilus. The Scripture admitteth but one king One only king and Lord 1. Tim. 1 d. 17 Apoc. 19 c. 16 of the world, immortal and invisible and only wise, unto whom only belongeth all honour and glory, and in whose thigh is written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Upon which also we have the witness of the Apostle, saying: Although that there be 1. Cor. 8. b. 5 many Gods & many Lords in the world (to wit after the reputation of the Idolaters) yet nevertheless unto us, there is but one God and one Lord hilarius. Afterwards you do make the same honour Flora. Lact. de fall. re. li. 1. ca 20. unto the virgin Mary, which the Romans did unto the Harlot Flora, whom they have made a Goddess and canonized her, because that she made them heirs of her goods, which she had gained by whoredom. Chloris ovid. Fast. 4. 5. And afterwards for to cover and hide their honour, have called her Chloris, and have given unto her power to make the Earth to fructify and increase. Do ye not great honour unto that holy virgin, to give unto her Flora, that abominable bawd and harlot for a companion? or to put her in her place? And the time agreeth well to the feast. For the Florals and the feast of Candlemas of Flora were dedicated unto Florals. all lycenciousenesse, shameless plays, upllaynies and dissolutions, the which the false Christians do practise, all that time which is between the Kings and Shroftyde, afterwards they begin again at Caster and do continue until the month of may, and almost all the year. But chiefly at the feasts of Caster & in May after their Proserpina & Hecate. lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the paynim do hold Proserpina & Hecate for the Goddess and Queen of hell, and do light unto her Torches and candles and do beseech her for the dead, to the end she be favourable, as well for her own part, as towards her husband Pluto. And you, do you much less of the Virgin Mary, you do Queen of heaven and of hell call her Queen of heaven: And you do make her Queen of hell and of the dead, as the Poets do of Hecate, whom they do also take for Proserpina and Diana unto whom they do attribute great power in heaven and in hell: as it appeareth by that, that Virgil says. Aene. 6. To cast in sacred fire redemption chief of deeds amiss. And on Diana calls, in heaven and hell that mighty is. Also in like manner you would make of jesus Christ a Pluto, or at the lest the difference is not great. And if you will deny it I will have no more to prove it, but your prose & sequence of the dead, which is in good time, but yet nevertheless Prose and sequence for the dead without reason, beginning in Latin: Lugentibus in Purgatorio: The which for to make it the better to sound in thy ears friend Eusebius, & the better to follow the stile of the Fatists which have made it, I will revearse it unto thee in verse word for word the best & I can and if thou do not find the rhyme so good as it is in Latin, be assured that there is more rhyme and better, than there is of reason. For I do not think that one can find greater blasphemy against God and the Uirgyn Mary. If I do not translate it word for word, I will yet at the lest rehearse the sentence faithfully. Give ear then, and I will pour it forth. 1 To all them that do dwell: in Purgatory pain Eugentibus in purgatorio etc. Residium in si. ne istius Dialog 7. Where fiery furies fell: and sorrows they sustain, And torments do endure: void of solation, Come show them some ●ecure: by thy compassion. O Mary. 2 Thou art the well alone: which washest sins away, Thou hydest every one: and none thou dost denay. Extend thy hand toward: these souls and succorr show Which thus without regard: lie languishing in woe, O Mary. 3 The dampened spirits to thee: so piteous do asplie Desiring for to be: delivered foom the fire. That by thee they may be: erepted for their pain, And may in joys with thee: for evermore remain. O Mary. 4 Of David only key: which heaven openest wide, These wretches help straight way: which dolours do abide Let them delivered be: from dungeon and durance, Where they do linked lie: in sorrow and grievance. O Mary. 5 A rule art thou full right: to them that thee assye, A lively lamp of light: to them that trust in thee, Incontinent go pray: for these souls in distress, Thy son that he straight way: their dolour will release. O Mary. 6 O Virgin thus we do: upon thee cry and call, These souls so tangled, to: deliver out of thrall. And pardoning their misdeed: also we thee request, That thou will't be their guide: to everlasting rest. O Mary. Do you not behold a goodly Litany? may not jesus Christ now rest? For the Scripture attributeth unto him nothing, which is not here altogether, attributed unto the creature. Wherefore I will have none other proposition for to prove that that proof containeth the greatest blasphemy which may be upon the earth, but only that either the same that I do say is true, or else that the holy Scripture is false, and jesus Christ is no more jesus Christ, the Titles of Christ john. 10. b. ●. Apoc. 3. b. 7 john. 14. a. 6. door, the key, and he which holdeth it, which openeth and sutteth, the way the truth and the life, by whom only we have access unto the father: or only hope, the resurrection and remission of sins: or only advocate patron and mediator? the which titles and many other like, the Scripture 1. john. 2. a. 1 attributeth unto him only and not unto the creature whatsoever it be, either in heaven or in the earth. Will't thou now deny, but you do make of the Virgin Mary a Proserping: and of the other side a Ceres? whom in like manner you do honour by putting on of white apparel, and Writ apparel with fastings & superstitious abstinences, even as Ovid hath written of Ceres, saying. The Goddess Ceres' best doth like Fast. 4. the garment made of white And for her use in garment black she no thing doth delight. Behold as touching the apparel. Give ear also to that Fastings. Fast. 4. Coriat. le not. deo. l. cui. which he speaketh of the superstitious fastings. Their feasting lasted all the day till time of night drawn near And then they straight to supper went Cal. lee. of't. li. 26. ca 20. Fast. 4. when stars in sky appear As much did they in like manner unto Isis and Cible, whom you will bring all into the Christianity under the Plat. de Osiri. & Isida. title of that good virgin. And not being contented with the ye do add yet juno Sospita, unto whom the title was given, because that the paynim did attribute unto her the virtue to juno Sospita. ovid. Fast. 2. heal & save men. For Sospita signifieth as much as a saveresse or woman saver. Therefore all those the were sick or jupiter a saviour. diseased did call upon her with jupiter the saviour, jesus Christ is not sufficient for you for a saviour, except you do add a saveresse or a woman saviour. It is not sufficient for you to have him for a Porter and key bearer in heaven, but ye must join to him a she porter and she key keeper, to the end that we should have the Goddess Carua The goddess Carua porter. Fast. 6. aswell as the paynim had, unto whom Ovid giveth such power, as you do give in that prose unto your new Virgin Mary, the which you have forged and made of your own mind. For she which was the Mother of jesus would not commit sacrilege, for to steal from jesus Christ her son the honour which to him alone appertaineth. But mark well whether the verse of Ovid speaking of the Goddess Carua, doth evil agree with your prose. Through her great force and mighty power Fast. 6. that which is close and shut She doth set open and shut again without any man's let. Furthermore you apply her to you purpose, as they did the Goddess whom they did call Muete and the Goddess The Goddess Muete. Dea Muta. ovid. Fast. 2. Palis. For after that they had ended that that belongeth unto the dead, they did also make a magical sacrifice, to the Goddess Muete to which they did put incense, war, beans & other like things, & they did think the it had virtue against Sacrifice against the enemies and backebiters their enemies, for to keep them, & chief for to stop the mouth of the evil speakers and backebiters, Thomas. The poor priests should have need to make such sacrifices against you for to bridle your mad tongues & to stop your mouths hilarius. They have the Agnus Dei of war which the Rat. diui. off. li. 6. Pope blesseth the great Saturday, which aught to have that virtue. Theophilus. They need none other sacrifice, then to to be good people, of good doctrine & a holy life, and duly to exercise the office of shepherds, as the true disciples & ministers of jesus Christ, & they shall easily tie the tongue of all backbiters & evil speakers: or they shall do at the lest that it shall not hurt them, & that those which now do speak evil, shall find themselves liars if they persever & continued in The goddess Pales. ovid. Fast. 4. The purging fire. it. hilarius. Yet there remains the feast of Palis, the Goddess of the Shepherds, in the which also they did make the purging fires, and the shepherds did leap upon the flames, thinking that by those fires they were purified. I think that of that custom came the fires of Saint Brandon's, The fires of S. Brandon and of Saint john. for those that were new married, and those of Saint john: afterwards in that same feast they made perfumes, besides Hly ashes. the holy ashes of which we have already inademention off, and of the holy water, aswell for to purge the men 〈◊〉 of m●n & o● 〈◊〉 as the beasts, and did make sprinklings upon them, for to ●éepe them from evilly The which ceremonies Ourd hath all comprised in these vestek. And surely I myself in hand. Fast. 5. the sacnfice did take The beme stalk, and the ashes which the burned Calves did make. And thrice I passed the fiery flames in order placed there Which all be sprinkled with the dew of droppong Lautell were. And of the perfumes in that same book he says Perfumes from virgins altar fetch which Vesta will give thee For by the vet●ue of her gift thou purified shalt be. Thy pertumes shallbe Horses blood And ashes of a Calf The third thing them shallbe the stalks of beans for that behalf Let shepherd then make sacrifice at dawning of the day Let him cast wateron the earth and sweep the dust away. Then sheepefoldes trymly let be decked with boughs and brauncues green And let their wreaths and garlauds gay upon the doors be seen Let bluish smoke likewise be made of Brimstone good and fine And let the Sheep smeerd with the smoke, his bleating voice resign, Male olives then with fire consume, the juniper and Pine, And let the Laurel crackeling leaves, be burned in chimney thy, You have also the torches and holy Candles, and the encensings and perfumes, your holy ashes, which you give the first day of Lent: and you have always your holy water ready, and your holy torches, as remedies against all diseases and dangers, of men and of beasts, and you do give and vow them unto the Virgin Mary, and to the Saints and Saints, as they did to the Goddess Pales, which had the charge of the beasts. the Gods of & beasts. Objection. job. 10. b. 9 &. ●2 b. 12 Psa. 103. c. 14. Genes. 3. d. 19 Psa. 40. b. 6 Eusebius. Is that a thing contrary unto the word of God, to put holy ashes on the foreheads of the Christians, for to admonish then of their mortal condition, and fragility, to the end that man ddoe remember that he is but dust, earth and ashes, and to the earth shall return again? Is not that a good advertisement, for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man, and to prepare him unto death and to the judgement of God? And afterwards, how many places of the holy Scripture are there which do exhort us to humble ourselves before God, with To wear sackcloth and afshes. fackecloth and ashes? And of examples of the servants of God, which have done the like? But you will not consider those places, but you had rather to speak evil of it, and to refer it to the paynim. Theophilus. I deny not, but that the ancient and true servants of God have done pevaunee, fasted and prayed, with fackecloth and ashes, but how doth that that they did, agree with that that you do? hilarius. As much, as is between the work of a man and of an Ape. Theophilus. It is no lie. For that which the ancients The ashes of the ancients. did, they did it with a good heart, and not by outward gestures. They did return again unto God by true repentance, confession of their sins, and amendment of life. They made no Shrofeside nor did burst themselves with eating and drinking. They did not give themselves to all dyssolutions, for to go the next day to have a few afshes put upon their foreheads, as though they would play a Mask or a jest, and to mock with God and with men. Thery abstained The fastings of the ancients judg. 20. d. 26 1. Reg. 7. b. 6 Neehe. 1. b. 4. hest. 4. a. 3. Dan. 10. a. 3. Act. 13. 2. 3 not only from certain meats until noon, for to stuff and fill themselves afterwards with other meats, and to eat until they burst: But they abstained first form vice and sin, and afterwards from all pleasures, delights and pomps. They abstained from eating and drindcking all a day until night, and sometime continued their prayers until two of their own voluntary will and good heart, when they did know that it was erpedient for them so to do, or for to macerate and chastise their body: or when they did see the furor and anger of GOD kindled against their sins: or when they had any great matter of weight to do, to the which faith is greatly required, and the aid and assistance of GOD, and for to demand and obtain, the prayer and orison, the which requireth Prayer. sobriety and abstmence, to the end the spirit be more free, fervent, and more zealous to God. But they had no law, for to make difference between meat and meat, other than that of Moses: nor which forbiddeth them flesh, which by the same was permitted them: nor that they bond them unto certain days, or certain meats, and to fast under pain of deadly sin. The la of fasting Mon●anus Here tick Euseb. hist. ec. ole. li. ●. ca 18 For the first that made the law to fast was Montanus the her like, as the ecclesiastical history witnesseth. Also they attributed not their health and justification, to the merit of their fastings and other works, nor they did not present them unto God, for satisfaction of their sins: and yet less the sackcloth and ashes, wherewith they did cover themselves: But to the only goodness and mercy of God. And they did not that, but for to witness their faith and repentance, which did bring forth such fruits: and for to move and sturrethem the better to call upon GOD, and to The profit of sackcloth and ashes. Hypocrisy. give themselves wholly unto him. For without the same, neither sackcloth nor ashes, nor the abstinence of meats, will not profit, but for to provoke the wrath of God, thorough such hypocrisy, the which nothing can john. 8. f. 44. be more dyspleasing unto him. For sith that GOD is truth, and the Father thereof, and the Devil is liar and the Father of lies, what thing can be more contrary unto the nature of GOD, and his truth, which aught to shine in his children, than hypocrisy the daughter of the Devil and of lies? & to lie upon the spirit of God and his Church? For what other thing is hipocrisse Hypocrite. and dissimulation, but lying? And what other thing is the hypocrite before GOD, but a dissembler, beguiler, and a scoffer, a mocker of God and men, and a very traitor and deceiver? who would be esteemed other than he is, and thinketh to deceine both GOD and men, caring but for to please men, as he which playeth his part upon a stage or seaffolde, only for to get praise and glory: As our Lord jesus Christ witnesseth of the Scribes and Pharisees, who do all their works but for the praise of the world: For as Mat. 6. a. 2. & 22. a. 5 jerem. 5. a. 3. the Prophet saith, O Lord thou lookest only upon faith. If the best works that God ever commanded be not profitable unto him that doth them, if they proceed not of a true & lively faith, without unsaincdnesse, with a Hebr. 11. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. a. 5 pure heart and a good conscience, without doing it to any other end, but to the glory of God, and health of our neighbour, whereto then can the vare ceremonies serve, The ceremonics which of themselves are nothing worth, but forasmuch as they do serve to more greater things, and that they are as the rudiments, and begynnings, and the first elements & degrees, for to come and attain unto greater things, to that which they prepare do: As that letters, the Alphabet and the first rules Grammar, do prepare little children and young Grammarians, to a higher knowledge, and more greater percfection: or otherwise all that should serve them but in little steed. Therefore Saint Paul The rodlments of the religion Gal. 4. 2. 3 called the jewish and Mosaiacall Ceremonies, the elements of the world. They do also serve us as the scaffolds which the Masons do make for to build a house, the which are cast away after that the house is finished. For they are of themselves undrofitable, saving only that they voe serve for a better thing. And therefore Fastings condemned Mat. 6. a. 2. let us behold how our Lord jesus Christ, condemned the fastings of the Scribes and hipocryticall Pharisees: And by his Prophet Esay, those which abstained only from meats and punished their bodies, and covered themselves with sackcloth and ashes: But they abstained not from doing evil, from plaints and process, from violence and rapines: as the most part of our fasters are at this day, which do make it a conscience to eat a piece of pork, veal, mutton or of other beasts, and do Abstinence frombrutish flesh. Devouring of man's flesh. make it no conscience to eat and devour man's flesh, and the bowels, tripes and entrails of their Christian brethren, thorough their insatiable avarice and covetousness. And yet nevertheless they play the Dipocrites, and kneel down before the Priest, for to receive those holy ashes, as in sign and witness of a great humplitie and abjection of themselves. But if they did truly believe that they are earth and ashes, wherefore do A layned humility. not they fear the judgement of GOD, and leave off from their violences and ertortions? For they aught not to think, that with such masks, they can content and please God, which hath no need of babels, for to pass away the tyme. For the fasting hath been chiefly The principal use of fasting. used, among the true servants of God, for to help them in their peayer, the which is almost always joined with fasting, in all the places of the Scripture which maketh mention of fasting. For that cause said jesus Christ unto his Disciples speaking of that Devil which they could not drive out of the LunatickeL That kind of devil Mat. 17. d. 27. cannot be driven out, but by fastings and prayers: Letting them thereby to understand, that they wanted To drive out the devil by fasting and prayer. great faith, and that their incredulity and unbelief was the 'cause that they could not drive him out. Wherefore it was most necessary for them to pray, the which requireth abstinence and sobriety, for to be more Incredulity. Prayers. Abstinence from meats. The fasting and abstinence of the paynim Call Rhod. let. aut. li. 26. c. 20. Jerome Apul. sin. aur. li. 11. spiritual and servant. But otherwise, the fasting and the abstinence, which hath regard but to the meats, why should it be more praise worthy among the Christians, than the abstinence of the Philosophers which do abstain from flesh? or that of the Priests of Isis, and Cybele, who do abstain from eating of bread? whom Saint Jerome rebuked, because they dare not eat bread for fear to break their fastings, but they must make great provision for Phesauntes, Partridges, and other dainty fowls. They do as ours do, which dare not eat of the lard and fat bacon, but they seek bothsea and land for to find out new delicate dishes. Is not the perpetual abstinence from wine which the Lurks kept to be preferred? But I will not at this time enter into that matter of fastings any further. For it cannot be ended in a small tyme. But if the fastings and such corporal exercises do little profit, except 1. Tim. 4. a. 3. they have with them the things, by reason whereof they are ordained, to what end can sackcloth and ashes serve: especially after that sort as they are given at this day, the which hath no likelihood or agreeing with the custom of the ancient servants of God? For they did not think to be purified and sanctyfied by those ashes, nor that they should bring any health or salvation unto the soul by that sprincklinge, as you do by yours. Let the prayer, the which you do use in the censecration and hallowing of them: be a witness in the which you do pray God, that it would The blessing of ashes. Miltere digneris sanctum Angelum tuumde please him to send his holy Angel from heaven, to bless and sanctify these ashes, to the end they may be a healthful remedy unto all those which do call upon his celis, qui benet dical & sanct ●fiees hes ●●ueres & ●. name: and that althose which the pour them upon them, may receive bealish of their body, and safeguard of their soul, for the redemption of their sins. Those ashes should have as much virtue as the blood of jesus Christ. They should have yet more show and colour, as already hath been declared, to restore the ancient jewisth ceremony, The ashes of an Heyser. Numeri. 19 a. 2. and to make ashes of the young heifer, then to do that that they do, or to make them of a Calf, as the Pomaines did. For they should have more colour in the holy Scripture, in the which they shall find no institution of their ashes. hilarius. If they do not find it in the holy Scripture. aught it not to suffice thee, that it is found in the Balender of ovid. But they do add moreover that the Vestalles with those consecrated ashes, for the purgation of the people: not only made with a Calf, but Holy perfumes: The macter so make the ashes Feria 4. cinerum ante missam be nedicuntur cineres facti de ramis benedictis pretcritis annisi habentur in medio whore ante altar etc. Purgaroty of the quick and the dead. also with stalks and poddes of beans, had perfumes of Brimstone, of Torches, of the Laurel or bay tree, of the Dliffes, of rosemary, and other like sweet and oderiferant trees and herbs: of which your missel teacheth you to make your ash, to wit of the boughs which were blessed the year before: and of the bands and gins which they do put on the little children in their baptism and confirmation. Dost thou think Eusebius, that those things do evil agree with your Ceremonies, and the purgations that you have nas well for the quick as for the dead. For sith that the blood of jesus Christ is not sufficient for you, it must needs be that you have a Purgatory both for the one and the other: But I have yet forgotten, that at the feast of the dead, the paynim did shut their Temples, and cover and hide their images, as Ovid hath in like manner descried by these verses. The Gods of Churches were shut up, Fast. 2. with close and privy doors: And altars wanted sacrifice, none incense on them pours, Then did poor souls and bodies dead, committed to the grave Still stray abroad and feed on that set for them then to have. The Athenians also used Ceremonies altogether like unto that feasts of Praxiergide, which they celebrated in Athens in the month of February, to the which the one holdeth the secret mysteries: one other pulleth down all the ornaments of the Temple, and an other covereth the Image that was there. Do not you receive and use yet at this day all in all, those same manner of doings, the which you have referred to Lent, and do stop the Coel. Rhod. lee. ●ut. li. 14. ca 9 To stop the Idols noses. The veil. 2. Cor. 3. c. 1● noses of your Idols, and hang a veil before them, for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the jews. I know not whether you be afraid lest they should smell. the garlic which you eat in Lent. I will leave off to speak of other sperstitions & Idolatries which you have borrowed of the paynim. For I should never make an end. But I will only show one part of those which are descended from the feast of the dead, celebrated among the paynim, and of the purgations that they have, aswell for the quick as for the dead: to the end thou shouldst know that even as you have followed them for the purgations of the buing, so have you done in those of the dead. Theophilus. It seemeth also that Tertulian would refer, that which the Corinthians Teriul. adverse. Martio. b. s. & li. dear. cor. Baptism for the dead 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 did baptise themselves for the dead, to the Februales & purifiecations of the paynim, as letting to understand, that where the Corinthians did baptise themselves for the dead, was a superstition which they did yet keep of their ancient customs, crcept that in steed of that panish superstitions, they did abuse that baptism, thinking that it aught to serve for the dead, as we do see in our time that they have applied it unto the Lord's supper, by the means of Masses that which The supper. for the dead. the superstitins Papists do think to profit the dead, in whose name the Priest doth communicate and sing it. Although that the words of Tertulian are obscure and very hard, yet to cramine them together, it seemeth very well that he means the same, and the ancients have almost all taken it after that manner: notwithstanding that others do take it in an other sense, and do interpret that place of Saint Paul, of those which do 'cause another interpretation of the place. 1. Cor. 15. themselves to be baptized, when they were in extreme sickness and near unto death. For the custom was that those which came to the saith (which men call the Catechumenis, because they are instructed in the faith The custom of the Gatechumenus. Baptism deferred. and Christian Religion) did not of custom cause themselves to be sodedinely baptized, until such time as they were well instructed and taught in the secret mysteries, and doctrine of the Christian Religion. And therefore bycayse they had the baptism in great reverence, and did believe that thorough the same they had full remission and forgiveness of all their sins, and were altogether renewed, many tarried and referred to be baptized, until they were like to dye, thinking that when they died in such a state, they were more purewr and cleaner from their sins: the which they could never have done, if they had not truly believed and hoped for the immortality of the souls, and the resurrection of the flesh. Although that the Apostles allowed not such manner of doing. Those which do take the words of the Apostle after such a sense and meaning, are induced to do it, because that they think, that if the Apostle did understand and mean that of the Panish superstitions, that he would not have passed it over, without To baptize themselves for the dead. rebuking that error: and do expound it that they should baptize themselves of the dead: that is to say, as dead, and as people which repute themseluesalready dead. I have the willinger touched this, for to give occasion unto the readers, to examine well that place and the exposition of the ancients and others. hilarius. We have sufficiently entreated of that matter Eusebius, and think that thou shalt have somewhat to do to separate against that which we have propounded, for to prove that your ceremonies, & prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of jesus Christ. For I have rehearsed unto thee one part of the Pope's Calendar, and me seemeth that he aught to give me good wages for to end them all and his feasts: as Ovid hath written those of the Romans. Eusebius. If thou hadst as well read the works of Saint Augustine, and of other ancient Doctors, as the books of Ovid and other Poets and authors of the paynim, thou wouldst speak otherwise, and thou shouldst not have fallen into such deep roots of errors and heresles in which thou art wrapped in, in such for that thou canst not come forth, what so ever thing one may propound to the contrary. hilarius, I gladly desire, if that I am plounged in so deep [e error as thou sayest that I am, that thou wouldst aid and help me to come out of it: And if I have not read the ancient Doctors so diligently, as thou thinkest that thou haste read, I would that therein thou wouldst amend my fault, and that thou couldst show me so good out of their books, that I might have occasion to content myself. But I do now know by experience, that that which I thought, is true. For I doubt very much, that even as I have said at the beginning, all thy artillery, canons, and munititions with thy matter gunner Eccius, should be all consumed into smoke, as it appeareth unto me at this present. I did look for certain strong arguments and that a great number of them, but if thou hast no other weapons, thou art not so well armed as thou vauntest thyself: except peradventure there be some thing more excellent in the arriere guard. Eusebius. Sing not the triumph before the victory. For thou art yet very far from thy reckoning, and from that thou thinkest, the strongest is yet to do. But with much a do one could speak a word before thee. Thou art of the nature of women. For thou must always be balinge, and thou wouldst rather dye, but that thou wilt have the last word. Thomas hath granted unto me this day, to put forth my reasons, and to answer and rely unto yours: But even as Theophilus and you do? So must I yet have a few days respite, before that I can bring that that I have to say against you. Theophilus. Thou dost wrong to complain, as for my part of thou canst not say, that I ever did interrrupt thy talk, and but that I have always suffered all that thatthou wouldst speak, hearing thee in all patience and modesty. Thomas. I am well content for my part, to give unto thee the day which I aught to have for myself, if this here be not sufficient for thee. For I have not so much learning and knowledge, but that I am more fit to be a hearer then a Doctor. hilarius. We will give thee as long time as thou will't. But peradventure you do not understand where Eusebius grief lieth and on which side his shoe wringeth him. I know not whether he hath yet eat or drunk to day. As for me yesterdays journey admonished me to take a little, & to drink a draft of wine before I came: the which thing is the cause, that I am not so much thirstly as I was the day before: although that we have been a long time about the fire. As for Thomas. I believe that he hath been no more evil avuised than I, and that he is no less disposed to drink in the morning. Touching Theophilus and Eusebius, I fear very much but that they are yet fasting. For Theophilus is a man very studious and fover, which to eat little & late, infomuch that I do more greatly esteem his sobriety & daily & ordinary abstmence, than the fastings of the priests & Monks. As for E●sel m●, he is so superstitious that he favoureth ●em what Mooukish. wherefore I doubt not, but for to make han obedient to the holy Mother the Romish Church, doth fast, sith that according to the ordinance of the same, it is the day of fast. Eusebius. it is needful, that I and others do fast. For I am certain, that if the fastin●g had none other maintainers than thou and such as thou art, they should be soon abolished. Hellarms. I know not what I should voe, but at the lest I am at this day aided to maintain them: and a little wanted, but that I have learned thee to fast after the ancient manner. But thou oughtest not to find that strange. For sith that we have spoken of fasting, it was in like manner requisite to practise it. Yet nevertheless the eveming and the night are not yet come, which was the time and the hour that the ancients used to rest themselves on the fasting days. but to the end thou have none occasion to complain, I think it best, that thou do defer that which thou hast yet to say, until after drinking: & for my part, I promise' thee to suffer thee to speak as much as thou will't, and I will keep so good silence, that thou shalt not check me, as thou hast now done. Eusebius. I am content with that thou sayest, so thou do keep thy promise. But I greatly fear, that thou will't do nothing. hilarius. Thou shalt see, & before that thou do sleep thou shalt have the experience. For I will leave it ot thee and to Theophilus to do. Then let us go to refresh our bodies, and in the mean time preprare thyself for to fight valiantly. THE SUM OF THE fourth Dialogue. Because that the enemies of the truth do glory in themselves that they have the ancient Doctors on their side, for to maintain their abuses and superstitions: in this Dialogue Eusebius travaileth all that he can, for to uphold his Religion, & to prove his intent by the Ecclesiastical Doctors: unto whom Theophilus showeth how he corrupteth and perverteth the sense and intelligence of their words, and how they do condemn the errors and abuses of the Papists: by occasion whereof, is also declared wherein sometime the ancient Doctors have been deceived and overcome, following more the opinion of men, than the certain witness of the word of god: And when, & how the papistical Purgatory hath begun: what foundation, stay & shore it hath. It is also amply entreated of what original and beginning the private and particular Masses came, and the custom to sing them for the dead, and the despising of the holy sacrament of the supper of jesus Christ, and of the true Christian Communion. And therefore this Dialogue is entitled, the Age of the Mass and of Purgatory, because that it showeth how it was born, increased & augmented, & the Purgatory in like manner. ¶ THE FOURTH DIALOGUE which is called the Age of the Mass and of Purgatory. THomas. As far as I can presume by the words which I have herded of Eusebius, I trust that I shall hear you to bring forth a matter, the which will please me well, & which I desire greatly to understand. For I see daily, that men do blame you, which are taken and accounted for Heretics, to corrupt & pervert the sense of the holy Scriptures. Men do unto you this honour, to say, that you will not receive the witness nor the authority, but of the holy Scripture, and that you do prove by the same all that which you put forth, hut all the evil is in this, that you take them to your advantage, and turn and wrist them to your sense and carnal intelligence, and therefore you will not receive the expositions of the good Doctors. But I will see now, how you can bear it, and whether the Doctors of the Church are of our side or on yours. And therefore I pray thee Eusebius, that thou do pursue thy enterprise, and that thou show forth so good places, that they cannot be easily plucked from thy hands, as they have done those which thou hast already taken of Saint Ambrose. Eusebius. If I would display and show forth all that that I might allege, aswell of the new and late Doctors as of the aun●ient, I should aswell set them a work, as hilarius did vaunt himself of late to have set me on work, but I have not determined to allege others, but of the most ancientest and of those which are of more greater authority in the church, by the which I will plainly prove, that that which we do now in the favour of the dead, descended from the primative Church and from the The proposition and intent of Eusebius traditions of the Apostles. For if I would bring forth the Doctors of late days, they would by and by reicete and despise their authority, and would make none account of it: But when I shall have proved, that the ancient Doctors of the Church are on our side, I shall by and by allow and confirm the authority and witness of the late Doctors, and will more easilier stop their mouths: except they be so past shame, that they care leprove and condemn all the holy men and Pillars of the Church, which have shored and held it up in the time of the Apostles, and to affirm that there are not so many good men and so wise and learned as they are. Theophilus. Thou shalt not find us so unreasonable. Put forth thy case, afterward judge whether we have read and understanded those of whom you do glory so much in. Thomas. I have herded thee speak friend Fusebius of S. Augustin Saint Augustine namely among others, and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest, by whom thou mayst better fight, then by any other, if thou canst find in him a strong staff for to defend thee and to make war against them. For I have understanded that there is none among all the ancient Doctors which will serve them better for to prove their sect, than he. Wherefore I am sure, that if thou canst do so much, that thou canst prove that he is contrary unto them, they shall receive a great overthrow, and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle. For if he so whom they have their recourse, be their enemy, they shall have others which will rise against them. Eusebius. But so well assured thereof, as thou are certain that it is now day. And to the end thou shouldst not think that there are but vain words in my case, I will show unto them the experience. What do those words signify which are written in his Encheridion: which are also recited in the decrets Confess li. 9 ca 12. 13. Cham 110. & 109 13. q. 2. ca tempus. 4. sen●. dist. 45. Ne●ue. and in the master of the sentences, saying: we must not deny, that the souls of the dead are comforted thorewe the piety and devotion of their friends that be alive, when the sacrifice of a mediator is offered for them, or that alms is done in the Church. But those things do profit those who have merited them during this life, The authority of S. Augustin for the suffrages of the dead. to the end that they may afterward profit them. For there is a certain manner of living, which is not so good but that it requireth those things after death? nor so evil, but that after the same, they may profit him. But there is in like manner some kind of life so good, that it requireth not the same. And again some so evil that The diversity of lives it cannot have aid by those things, after that this life shallbe ended. And therefore he getteth here all the merit, by which any may be relieved or grieved after this life. Yet nevertheless, there is none which hopeth to be able to merit towards GOD, when he shall be dead, whereof he hath not here made any accempt. This then which the Church hath frequented, for to praise the dead, is not contrary unto that sentence of the Apostle, which saith: we shall all be brought before the Rom. 14. c. 10. 2. Cor. 5. b. 10 judgement seat of Christ, that every man may receive the works of his body, according to that he hath done, whether it he good or bad. For every one acquireth and getteth that merit, when he lived in this body, that those things may profit him. For they profit not all men. And wherefore do they not profit all men, but because of the difference of the life, the which every one hath lead in his body? Then when the sacrifices, be it of the Altar, or of alms deeds, what soever they be, they are offered for all the dead which have been baptized, those are giving of thanks for those which have been very good: and propitiations for those which have not been very evil, for to make God favourable unto them. But for the most wicked and evil, although that there be not aids and helps for the dead, yet nevertheless those are certain consolations for the living. But they do profit those that they do profit, either to the end that they may have full remission and forgiveness: or without all ●eubt, to the end that the damnation may be more tolerable and easier to bear. Thomas. Hath Saint Augustine written that? ●usebius. Dost thou think me so much a fool, that & would declare it otherwise? I warrant you they would not let me pass so, if they might say the contrary. But I am certain they dare not do it. And though they would, they cannot. For the book is of faith and credit. Thomas. Those words are very clear, not only for to prove the prayers for the dead, but also the sacrifice of the ●ulter. Eusebius. One cannot find a thing more clearer. For it openeth so plainly all the matter particularly, and goeth before the objections & replying, which those that do speak against it might make. For it divideth the divers manners to live, and divers merits of men: And giveth In. ser●le vir. apo. & in gles. super ulud. ●. Thessa. 4. Nolimus: de agentibus curs. promor. 13. cue 2. ca non estimantus to understand, that it must be he which would that such good deeds should be profitable unto him after his death, should be here conducted in such sort, that they may profit him: that is to say, that it must be that he die confessed and repentant. And he speaketh not only this in this place, but in many other like, amongst which he addeth yet this: that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead, profit not all those, for whom we do them. Yet nevertheless because we do not know to whom it profiteth. we must do them to all, that we leave none out. For it is a great deal better that those to whom it can neither profit nor hurt, should have more than they need, then to want any thing unto those which have need. And in the same book he says moreover: we do read in the second book of the Maccabees, that sacrifice was offered for the dead, but when one readeth them not in the ancient scriptures, the authority of the universal Church is not little, the which hath this custom, that in the prayers of the Priests, which they do make unto God at his altar, the recommendation of the souls hath also his place. And did 〈…〉 not Monica the Mother of Saint Augustine, require that they should make remembrance of her in the sacrament of the altar? For that cause hath Saint Gregory written, that the souls of the dead are delivered in scure manners and sorts, either by the oblations of the Priests, unde versus exsiella clerice. & 10. chanes. de sacram. M●ssa, preces, ●ona, tetunia, quatuor ista. Absoluimus animas quas purgans detinet ignis. or by the prayers of the Saints: or by the aims of their friends: or by the fastings of their parents. I do not think, that these two learned men, would have written such things, without having foundation of the holy Scriptures. And it is not like, that the Church hath kept that custom so long time, but that she was well assured that it came from the Apostles, and afterwards was augmented and ordained by Origene, as witnesseth Isidore. for from the time of Saint Denis and Tertulian, who were next unto the Apostles, they made prayers, sacrifices and oblations for the dead. For Saint Denis maketh express mention D●rand in rati. diu● off. li. 7 Rub de off. mort. Diony. li eccle. hire cap. 7. of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead, that God would pardon him all that that he might have committed through man's infirmity, and that he would place him in light, and in the region and country of the living, and in the bosom of Abraham 〈◊〉 and jacob. It is in like manner written in Tertulian we do make yearly one day ●●oblation for the dead. I have declared unto thee many witnesses and of great authority. I have alleged unto thee the custom of the ancient Church: which is a witness which is worth a thousand. I have alleged unto thee the practice of the ancient Doctors. They do sufficiently declare, both they have used, and chiefly Saint Augustine: who ●●●●●festly witnesseth, that the same was ordained of the authors, 4. sent. dist. 45 neque. Sermo de vers. apo in glow. super illud. 1. Thess. 4 Nelumus. which the universal Church keepeth, that is no say, that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and blood of Christ, when one maketh remembrance of them in their place, in the sin very socrifice, that one aught to may, and make remembrance, that one do also offer that sacrifice for them. Wherefore he saith, that we must not omit the supplication, the which the Church hath taken in charge to do De cur. pro. mor agere. cap. 4. Quast ●d. dul●● for the spirits and souls of all the dead, which are departed in the Christian society and company. Theophilus. I think that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set forth the principal weapons that thou canst find for to defend thy quarrel, and that if I have once satisfied those objections, I believe that the matter shall be ended as soon as he toucheth the witness and authority of the ancient fathers. As touching Saint Denis and the author of that book of the celestial and ecclesiastical Hieratchies, I have already The answer & solution to the objections. ready told thee what it was. For who knoweth not, that that book of the celestial Hierarchia, is more worthy to be some dreamer, then of Saint Denis the Disciple Denis Areopagite. Act. 17. g. 34. of Saint Paul? For it he had written either of the Angels or of the order of the Church, he had would rather have followed Saint Paul his Master, than the dreams of his own head: and he would not have spoken of such matters, otherwise than he in his Epistles. If thou do diligently read that book of Denis, whatsoever it be, thou shalt there find, that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that be alive, and not for the dead: And doth confirm that which we have already spoken off, of the manner which the ancients had to praise the dead. Wherefore it should not be needful to reiterate that which already hath been opened before, if thou wouldst understand that which one telleth thee: But we are always to begin with thee. I have already sufficiently declared unto thee, from what original and beginning the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came first, and what hath been the custom of the ancient fathers, the which was altogether contrary from that which is now in the Popish Church. Wherefore that which thouhast alleged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirm my matter, as I will prove unto thee by Cyprian, that holy Martyr, who hath read and well underderstanded Cyprian. Tertulian, if ever man did understand him. For he had him in such reputation that he did call him The praise of Tertulian. no otherwise but the Master thorough his great excellentness: Insomuch that when he would read in his books, he said always, bring me the master. And the better to declare the pleasure that he did take in reading him, and the fruit that one might therein learn & receive, they say that he laid it at night when he went to bed, under his pillolue that he night have it always ready at hand, when he would occupy and look in it: as the ancient histories do also witness, that Alexander the great did myth the books of Homer. For he giveth us sufficiently to understand that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead, in that ancient Church, were none other things than the praises and giving of thanks, which the faithful did tender unto God, for the mercy that he did unto their brethren, whom he hath called from this world: with the other things, which have been already spoken off, which are yet done at this day in some places in Almaigne, after the ancient manner. But they do call commonly the oblation and sacrifice, the divine service, and that which they did in their assembles in which they did observe chief four things: The first was the prophecy and preaching of the word of God. After the prayers. Afterwards the supper, and last what doth the sacrifice signify in the ancient church. of all, the gatherings and almos for the poor. And they did call that oblation and sacrifice: not that they did understand and mean to offer and sacrifice: jesus Christ, as the Priests say that they do in their Mass. But because The order of the assembles of the ancient church. Act. 2 g. 46 The christian sacrifices. Rom. 13. a 1 Heb. 13 c. 15 Psal 50. c. 14. 2. Cor. 8. 2. 4 that the Bishop and Pastor of the church, and all the Christian people did come to offer & present themselves unto god, & did offer unto him their orisons & giving of thanks, which are the true sacrifice of praise. And their alms in like manner, for to comfort the poor people of jesus Christ: They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable unto God. And they did make commemoration of the death & passion of jesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper. Wherefore we must not think, that they did make prayers & offerings for the dead, to the end they should be delivered frdi● the pains of Purgatory; as hath been done in our time: But the prayers were the praises, and thanks that they rendered unto God, and exhortations and admonitions which they did make by his word unto those that be living. The offerings were of the alms that the faithful did bring, for to secure & help the poor which were living. And therefore long time among the ancients, Hist. tri. li. 6. ca 28. & li. 7. ca 31. 32. that divine so●●ke that they did in their assemblies, was called collects, that is a gathering, for two causes. The first because that the people was there assembled, and gathered into a Communion. The other because that in those holy assembles, they did make gatheringes for the poor after the example of the primitive Church. Behold the name of the Christian assemblies, which hath long continued among the ancients, before that the name of Mass was born. As it appeareth by the ecclesiastical histories, as well by that same of Eusebius, as by that which is called tripartite: As for the name of the Mass, it is now enough. Although that some are yet of opinion, that that name came of the same cause, wherefore the divine service hath also been called collects: gatheringes, and that it hath been called mass, because that in the same the offerings were brought, which were there sent, for to give them unto the poor. For Missa in Latin, signifieth things sent. And those that are of that opinion, do think that all that which they do, and bring into those assembles, was called Missa in the plural number: of which they have made Missa and Miss, in the singular number. And by good right. For then when the offerings are distributed unto the poor, one may well call them Missa in the plural number, that is to say, sent. For they were sent, and divided unto many. But now the Priests do wrong to call it, Missa, in the singular number, that is to say, sent. For the offering is not sent but unto them. Wherefore they should have more reason to call it, kept, then sent. For they do keep all for themselves. They have well kept the name of Collect. But in steed of Collect, signifieth, among the auncyents, all the content of the divine service, they do call by that name the prayers and Oremus that they do sing before the Epistle, Wherein well appeareth what was the custom of the ancients: and that the Deacons did make the gathering for the poor: The which those here do make for themselves, and do sing the Epistle unto the Deacons. But for to return unto the prayers for the dead, and for to understand that that which I speak is true. Mark what Saint Cyprian writeth, of one Cypr. li. 4. epist. 5. Celerin and his family. called Celerin, who hath had a family: the which almost all suffered martyrdom, of whom he hath written after this manner: It is long a go, that Celerin was crowned for a Martyr. Item, his uncle of the father's side, and Laurence his undle on the mother's side, and Ignacius, which sometime have fought and been soldiers in the worldly war, but being the true and spiritual soldiers of God, having overcome the devil thorough the profession of Christ, have obtained of the Lord the rewards and crowns, thorough his glorious passion. We do offer always, as you remember, sacrifices for them, Sacrifices for the Martyrs. as often as we celebrated the passions of the martyrs. and that we make commemoration and remembrance universally of their days. Sigh that he witnesseth that Laurence and Ignacius have received as being victorious the palms and and crowns of martyrdom, there is no doubt, but that they are already held for Saintes and blessed: and do not think that they were yet detained August. in epist ad Hebr. ca 12 Extra de cele miss. cum Mat. ca ult. Sent. 4. dist. 45. Neque. Glosan 13. q. 2 caaempus. Imurs. m facit Martyrs qui orat pro Martiri in the pains of purgatory, and that we must make prayers and sacrifices for them, that they might be delivered from their sins and pains. The thing is so plain that none can deny it. For this sentence is very common and allowed among you, and by your Canons: That he that prayeth for a Martyr, doth wrong and injury to the Martyr. For I doubt not, but that in success of time, all things will be come worse. And above all I will advertise thee, that thou hast not proved unto me that that manner of doing was ordained by the Apostles in the primitive Church. For saint Augustine and others, whom thou hast alleged, do make mention that the ancient fathers, have been the authors and inventors of that custom, and that the Church of long time hath kept it: But they declare not, that jesus Christ nor his Apostles, have commanded and ordained it. And although that that Denis which Dyoni. higher eccle. ca 7. hath written the Hierarchies, maketh only in one word mention of the prayer for the dead which are buried, yet he proveth not by the holy Scripture, that we aught to do it: and he speaketh not one word of purgatory. But yet that that he toucheth of the prayer for him which one buryeth, is written after a sort, that he doth sufficiently declare that if was a vow and a desire that the faithful had of his health and salvation, and a witness that they do give, not that the same came of an opinion that they had either of Purgatory, nor of the pains which the souls of the faithful should suffer after their departing from this life. Wherefore their witness serveth me, for to prove, at the leastwise that such custom is not of the ordainaunce of the Apostles, sith that they cannot bring forth any other certain witness, but that they report it unto the ancient fathers For by that which hath been already declared and expressed, it is easily to know what the commemoration of Martyrs have been, and of the faithful that be dead sithence the time of Tertulian and Cyprian. And doubt not but that that which the ancients have done, was partly and principally for to abolish the Parentales and other superstitions which the Gentiles had about the dead, as already hath been amply declared. For they did think that it would be very hard so pull them away, if in steed of their customs, they had not put in some other, for so content them & for them to muse and study oil: As we may see by that Ad. Aurel. epi. 64. which Saint Augustine hath written, of gluttony and drunkenness which was used in his time of the buryalls of the dead and in hallowing the Churchyards. He saith that they cannot be abolished, if one do not forbidden that villainy by the Scriptures, and that the oblations which they make for the souls of the dead upon their sepulchres, be not sumptuous, nor of great cost, and that one should give cheerfully and without pride, unto all those that demand it, and that they cell them not. But if there be any that will offer any money, that it be distrubuted presently unto the poor. Saint Augustine giveth sufficiently to understand that the ancients have been constrained to invent and bring forth many Ceremonies in the Church, for to chase and drive away the Idolatry and superstition of the paynim: The which also afterwards were corrupted, as we may see this day by experience, insomuch that they are more dangerous, than those of the paynim, I think that that which hath been already entreated, of the feast of Saint Peter's chair, the which they celebrated in February, agreeth to that very purpose whereof Saint Augustine hath spoken. hilarius. It is most true, that those ancient fathers would have driven away the superstition by such inventions, as we do drive out a pin with one other pin. But they were not much profitable unto the Church. Theophilus. After that manner came the custom to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiastical assembles and in the celebration of the supper, over and beside the causes before alleged. And afterwards by little and little, the superstition hath begun, and is augmented unto this which we do now see it. We have no example The beginning of Masses for the dead. in all the holy Scripture, that the Apostles have done any thing of this. About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian, there was no question neither of Purgatory, nor of prayers nor offerings, for to deliver the souls, but such which we have seen. About the time of Ambrose and Augustine, the superstition did begin very much to take root and to increase, insomuch that in steed of simple commemorations, giving of thanks, and exhortations, which they made in celebrating the memory of the dead, they had already begun to dispute, that the prayers did profit them: and that the The beginning of Purgatory. question of purgatory was already begun to be stirred up. For it is very easy for men, yea, the most sage and wisest, to fall into superstition, because that it is natural unto us, and chiefly about the dead, by reason of an affection and love that we do bear unto our parents and friends, whom we cannot forget, although they be absent from us, but we do abide and continued always affectioned towards them, as though we might greatly aid them, yea, many times more after they be dead then before when they were alive. From thence it cometh that we are so much inclined to invent and receive every thing that we think may serve them. And although in deed it serveth them to no end, yet nevertheless we cannot refrain ourselves, because that. we think that we do feel comfort and satisfaction to our affection, iudgeinge the affection of the dead, after our own, our dealings is fowardes them, as towards God. What is the original and beginning of all Idolatry, but our foolish fantasse and affection, by the which we do measure God, thinking that The original & beginning of all Idolatry. he taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth us? Wherefore we serve him not after his will, but after ours. For in making feasts, in reposing ourselves, being appareled with goodly robes and gowns, making great cheer, hearing goodly singings and melodyes, walking about and passing the time in going a procession, w●e think that we do serve God well. But what service do w●e unto him? Do we not rather serve ourselves and our affections, making unto us a God altogether like unto ourselves, delighting ourselves in the like vanities? As much is happened unto us about the dead. Foolissh assestion towards the dead. hilarius. When a man is angry, yet it doth him much good to revenge himself upon some one, for to make him pass away his sorrow and anger, although he do receive no great profit. Even so when a man is in sorrow and beavines, for the death of his friend, he must have some solace and comfort, for to comfort his sorrow & heaviness. And thereof it came that the woman that loveth well her husband, or the mother, her child, oftentimes cannot refrain to kiss them after that they shallbe dead, or to embrace them, & some time with more greater affection, than ever she did during the time that he lived. But wheretoo profiteth all that, either to the quick or dead? Thomas. Nothing at all. hilarius. And yet nevertheless that doth great good unto her that doth it, and sh●e is so affectioned. Theophilus. Of The original of Images. Sap●en. ●. ●. b. 15 such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images, as it showed unto us in the book of wisdom, yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry, as all the ancient Fathers do witness, especially Lactantius & Eusebius. Lact. de fall. rcls li. a. ca 13. Euseb. de pra ena li. 3. ca 8 For the men for the affection that they did bear unto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had, & to remember them, and besides to honour them, they made Images, and set up sumptuous sepulchres in their honour. Afterwards they began to build Temples and Chapels hard by their graves, and to set therein their Images. Afterwards in success of time, all was converted and changed into great superstition and Idolatry. And even as it begun among the paynim, so is it entered among the Christians, The beginning of the Idolatry among the Christi●is. by occasion of the sepulchres of the Martyrs. For they have begun to make there their Ecclesiastical assemblies, to go thither to watch, and pray unto God, and to celebrated the supper. afterward they have builded Chapels and Temples, and have ordained Annual feasts. And after that those foundations were once set up, which was yet some thing tolerable, the thing was afterwards perverted. insomuch that in steed of the Candles that they carried for to watch all the night, they The ●ardell● of a good 〈◊〉. began to offer them to the Saints, and to their Images. In steed of the prayers that were made unto god, they have begun to address & direct them unto them. In stead of that supper 〈◊〉 of S●mes. that they celebrated in the name of the death & passion of jesus Christ, they have also begun to ado the rememoration of the Saints & Saints: And theroff came that Commemorantes which is in y● Even of the Mass, in which they do make Comm●morites ●●p●●sse remembrance, of some Saints & Saints. And afterwards by little & little, in stead of the simple commmoration which is done of the Saint's & Sanctes, they have begun to give unto every one of 〈◊〉, his Mass all whelly, insomuch that there is neither Saint nor Saints, but hath one, & that they do call upon it in steed of God, & unto whom the Priests have not given some occupation & office for to help & aid God in so many affairs. And after that sathan hath so well augmented his stuff, under the title of Martyrs, & of their Cemmemorations, to the end that nothing should remain, but that it should be full of idolatry & superstition, he hath also lound the means to make mé muse after that are dead, after an other manner. For to make them all to be worshipped as Saints he could not. Also he known very well, that after the damned, men will not much travalic nor bestow any cost. And therefore he hath sound a third order. hilarius. There doth lack but one, but that ther should be as many as of the orders order of th● dead. of the beggars. But they have it already. For the Limb is, for the fourth order. Theophilus. Therefore hath he begun in a luckey hour, you a sithence the time of Augustin, to forge the Purgatory: although y● them, it was not received nor allowed, as an article of faith, but they disputed only, as of an opinion, which hath some colour & show. For although y● S. Augustin moved the question, & touched some thing the matter, The question of 〈…〉. yet nevertheless he hath determined or concluded nothing for certain, but rather to the contrary. He hath written, that ther were some which did think that there was a certain fire of Purgatory, & that the thing was not incredible. But yet nevertheless, he ●urst not affirm it, but spoke of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein: notwithstanding that he ●●emeth to be of an opinion, that the prayers made for the dead, did profit them. But when all shall be well considered, what witness or what example doth he allege out of the holy Scripture, either of the old or new testament, sufficient for to prove and confirm that doctrine? I● he show forth unto me the custom of the ancient Church, & the traditions of the Apostles, I will demand upon the same the witness or example of the holy scripture, or of the primitive Church. For I am certain he shall not find it. It is then necessary, that we do come to the next age, as was the time of Tertulian, Ireneus and other like: and afterwards from The time of Tertul●●n and Cyprian. thence unto the same of Cyprian. For I have already proved by their writings, that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead, as they were after the time of Saint Augustin. For they did them not to the intent to help & secure the dead, but they directed them unto God only, for to give him praise & for to demand his grace & mercy towards the living: even as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w●ich were done about their Sepuleres, to the glory of God & consolation of the living, have b●ne converted & changed to the invocation of saints, & they have made Idols of them, so the commemoration which is done of other that be dead, hath been changed into meritorious prayers, for to draw the from pain, & successively sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certain remembrance & mention in the ecclesiastical assibles they came afterward to the point to make the commemoration in the supper Remembrance of the de ●● in the supper. for to witness that they held them of whom in the same they made remembrance for true faithful & catholic, & of the communion of saints which in the supper is repres●t●d. 〈◊〉 the same manner aught we to understád the which S. Augustin hath writté of the remembrance which they celebrated for the dead, in the sacrifice of the altar & of a mediator, by which we aught not to understand a sacrifice, in which jesus christ our only mediator The sacrifice of the altar & of a mediator. is offered to god his ●ather, for the rediption of our souls, as he was offered upon the tr●e of the cross, & after the manner as the priests do glory & boast themselves at this present time to offer in their Mass, according to the witness of their Canon. For there is but one such Sacrifice, the which jesus hath Heb. 7. d. 17 once offered, which of none other can be done, but of him alone, who is the Priesse and everlasting bishop, after the order of Melchizedec, if we will not be lie the holy Ghost, who spoke by the mouth of the holy Apostle. Thomas. Of what Sacrifice then doth Saint Augustine speak off? Theophilus. Thou oughtest to understand 〈◊〉 sorts of 〈◊〉 The sacrifice of reconciliation. that there be two sorts of Sacrifices, which do comprehend all that other. The first is the sacrifice of reconciliation & redemption, for to deliver the sinners from the ire and wrath of God: But this appertaineth but to jesus Christ alone, of whom the levitical sacrifices were but a shadow The sacrifice of thanks giving and figure. The other is the sacrifice of praise & thanks giving, by which we may comprehend all the works of the faithful, by which they do praise God, and do traviale to August. li. 10. de ciut. Dei. c. ●. 6 be joined unto him. As Saint Augustine doth expound it. Now forasmuch as the sacrament of the holy supper of our Lord, is one of the principal things that the church But sacrifice the supper is. hath, for to glorify God, rightly it was called by the ancients, sacrifice, as not long ago hath been touched: not by reason that jesus Christ is offered unto God by us: But because that he offereth himself unto us, and that thorough faith we receive it, and tender unto him it, ankes for the great benefit that he hath done for us, giving himself to the death for us: and we confess and protest, that we do not take nor hold any other for a saviour than he only, nor we accept any man's sacrifice but his. For that cause hath the supper in like manner been called Eucharistia by the Greeks: The which word signifieth giving of Eucharis●ia. thanks. After the same manner have Saint Augustine and other ancient Doctors of the Church understanded it. And they understand not by the altar any other thing The material 〈◊〉 of the Church. but the table upon which the Church hath used to celebrated the supper, making allusion unto the altars of the ancient law and have regard to that sacrifice of thanks gyung, which in the supper is offered unto god by his church. Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that point, in the time of Saint Augustine, which was about The time of S. Augustine four hundredth years after the death and passion of jesus Christ, in which the church did begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted. For after that one once had begun to mingle the commemoration of the dead with that of jesus Christ (for which only the supper is celebrated, not for sinful men, who have not redeemed us by their death) from one opinion and error, it is fallen into another, in such sort that men are fallen into such dreaming, that they have thought that the supper, to the which those that were a live did communicate, did profit the dead, and that they might take it for them, and to their health & salvation, after the same manner as they did the other suffrages in their name. hilarius. If we will understand that which saint Paul hath written of the Corinthians, which To take the supper for the dead. 1. Cor. 15. d. 29 baptized themselves for the dead, after the sense in which the ancients have taken it, we should have no less reason to excuse them, than those here. For if I may take the supper for an other man, wherefore may I not in like manner be baptized for him? I think that they will not grant we that, that one may be baptized for an other, and that Baptism for the dead. that baptism doth profit him, and yet less to the dead then to the living. Theophilus. It is well found out, who have been of that opinion, that they may be baptized for the dead, which without baptism were departed out of Reisersperg. de mort. virt ser. Domi. 3. adven Tho. 4. dist. 45 q. 6. this world, & that the baptism profiteth them. But the Doctor's questionaries, and namely. Thomas of Aquin, benyeth it and condemneth that opinion. hilarius. If I may not then be baptized for the dead, whereto serveth or profiteth the supper that I shall take for them? For it hath not been more ordained for the dead then the baptism, but both of them were for the living, aswell the one as the other, sith that both of them are Sacraments, given unto the militant Church, and which is yet covered and wrapped in this flesh. Theophilus. There is nothing more certain. And yet nevertheless behold how the one of the errors hath drawn the other after him, insomuch that they have begun to apply the supper, for to comfort the dead, and it seemeth that those for whom they do make commemoration, do no less participate, than those which do there communicate in their name. But yet they have not held themselves to t●at, but are fallen into another error more importable, altogether to turn upside down and overthrow the institution of the supper, and have defouned it, The supper deformed. insomuch that it seemeth nothing at all like to the communion that the Saints have with jesus Christ, and amongst them, but it was altogether like unto an excommunication. For at the beginning, when that the Christians The original and beginning of the private Masses. did begin to communicate at the supper for the dead, that was no less permitted to the lay people, and unto every one of the christians, as to the ministers of the church, until such time as the supper hath taken the name of Mass, the which is not so ancient, as the Papists would affirm. The antiquity of the name of Mass. Lusebius. Will't thou deny that Saint james the Apostle, hath not ordained it and song it, as the decretal witnesseth? Theophilus. It is very nóedefull that a liar have a good memory, or otherwise he shall often be taken in a trap. How shall they which are of divers opinions among you accord The authors of the Mass. De cons●dist. 1. ca lacobus. touching that point. For the one says that Saint Peter did sing the first Mass in Antioch. another the contrary that Saint james did sing it in Hrerusalem. Others would refer it unto Basil the great. If they did understand and mean by the Mass the supper. I will not altogether gain s●y them. For I doubt not, but that those there have truly celebrated the supper, following the example of jesus Christ their master: But read all the books of the true servants of God, which have been sithence Moses, unto the time of Gregory the great (who hath reigned almost about seven or eight hunoreth years after the death of jesus The time of Gregory. Christ) and afterwards tell me if ever thou hast sound the name of Mass: except it be in some wicked & corrupted ●ooke, or that it is falsely mutulod with the name of good ancient Doctors: or if it be at some time found, it is very seldom, and in an other signification and manner than it is now used. But the name is but a small thing, if we do accord in the principal thing. Although it were so, that the name of the Mass should be very ancient, and that it is oftentimes found in the books of the ancient Doctors, notwithstanding it followeth not therefore, that their Mass was like unto yours at this present. For how much might one have added unto it, sithence the time of the Apostles, if it had been in the Church, sith that you do yet daily add unto it, and you never have done. Eusebius. That same is done for the honesty and reverence of the Sacrament and for his solemnity, and moreover to bewrifie it. And therefore thou deceivest thyself, in that thou thinkest, that there is contradiction amongst us. For we do not understand or mean that saint james, or Saint Peter, or any other to have instituted the Mass, than jesus Christ himself, the which afterwards his disciples did begin to ordain and bewtyfie it, as we have at this present, and consequently the other until this present whore. Theophilus. Saint Paul was the chiefest of the Apostles, and yet he came after Saint Peter & Saint james, but he did not teach or learn the Corinthians such apish tricks, when ho declared unto them how they aught to celebrated the lords supper, but doth protest, that he will add nothing unto it nor diminish any thing, but that he will give it them, in the same form as he received it of his Master jesus Christ. I do not boeléeve that Saint james nor Saint Peter have done otherwise, nor all their compaigmons. And you can no better confound yourself, they in excusing yourself, as you do. For at the least wife, by that you do confess, you do witness, that you have not the Mass, such as ye have, neither of jesus Christ nor of his Apostles, nor of the primitive Church, but that it is of so many divers poeces, that one can not know the colour of the first clot. hilarius. Thou canst no better compare it, then to a beggars cloak, to which every one hath set to a piece, which is so be guarded and patched, that there is not one piece seen in that form and fashion as it was first made. But how can you tell who made it? It is not yet made nor ended. For you do add unto it daily, and it shall not be ended & perfected at the end of the world, if other workmen than you do not put to their hands. Yet neruertheles if thou hadst herded, Theophilus, a sermon that a Curate made unto his Parishyoners, which is not very far from this A sermon of a Cura. c. place, peradventure thou wouldst speak otherwise. Theophilus. He must bring forth better reasons, for to make me to change my speech, than any could bring forth yet. hilarius. Thou mayst say, that there was never a more subtler question alleged in Sorbonne: he exhorted his parishioners to offer and pay well their tithes. And the better to stirie them forward to do the same, he proponed unto them, the example of Abel and Cain, saying: A bell hearing Mass. Take ye heed you do not as that cursed Cain did, who would not pay his tithes, nor go to Mass: but fellow the good example of Abel, who paid his tithes willingly, and always of the best and fairest, and he never sailed to hear Mass every day. If it be so, the Mass is more ancient than thou sayest that it is. Theophilus. Peradventure it is with the priests as it was with the Egyptians, The antiquity of the Egyptians Esa. 19 Plat. in Timo. Vad●●a epist. lust. li 2. who did glory somuch of their auntiquitie: and did affirm, that it was ten thousand years, that they had been in the world. And when they said it, it was not two thousand years, that the world was created. hilarius. It must needs be then, that they were before the creation of the world, at the leasle five or six thousand years. Peradventure they were created Arcadins: whom The antiquity of the Arch●diās Ou●d. Fast. 1. the Poets do writ to have been horn before the Moon. Eusebius. That is not the first sable that thou hast forged, for to mock and jest at the priests. hilarius. I do assure thee, without lying one word, that a Commissary told it me, who said upon his faith, that he himself hath heard him, being at the Mass, in which that Sermon was made at the Laudes tune in the midst of the same, when the Priest was come to the Offertory, and that same is not chanced far hence. For that party played his part here hard by, in the holy popish ground, in which they do yet sing Mass. And notwithstanding that that Commissary dwelleth in that holy ground, yet nevertheless he was estonished of that Sermon, insomuch, that as he told me, he went unto the Priest, and said unto him: I cannot well understand that example which you have alleged of Abel and of Caine. For at that time, there were but four people in the world. Cain did neither sing, nor herded the Mass. Sith then that Abel herded it, he could not sing and answer, or else they should have been like unto the Priest Martin. It must needs he then that Adam did sing it, and that Eve did hold Adam a Priest. the Torch, whereby it also should follow, that the Priests than were married. Theophilus. His conclusion was not evil. But I assure thee, that if the Priests could prove that the Mass The antiquity and institution of marriage. was as ancient as the marriage, and that God himself hath as well commanded and ordained it at the beginning of the world, and in the terrestrial Paradise, as Moses witnesseth that he hath done of marriage, be assured, that they would make their pottage fat. And if they can in like manner show, that jesus Christ would be as well found at a new Mass, as at the marriages. hilarius. They would give much upon that condition, and not without cause. For they did know very well that it would be available unto them one time in the year. Theophilus. It is very true. But their principal & chiefest profit cometh unto them, because of the dead. And therefore they would no longer permit & suffer, that it should be lawful & common unto all, as well lay people as clarks, to exercise the office, & to communicate y● one for the other, but it is given unto than alone, as the most worthiest, judging the other thereof unworthy. From thence are descended the private and particular masses, in which all they Private & particular Masses. alone do say that do communicate for the quick and the dead. It sufficed them not, to take the office to communicate for the dead, which were absent, but which is more, would also make it in the name of the living, which are present, as though they rejected them, and judged them excommunicate and unworthy to communicate at the death & passion of jesus Christ. I demand of thee then Eusebius upon this, where thou hast ever read, that the Christians have used a supper and sacrament vicar, I Sacraments vi●cars do call the sacrament end the supper vicar, which thou takest for an other altar the imitation of Tertulian, calling vicar baptism, the same of the Corinthians for the dead. Ter. adver. Mars. li. 5, & li. de resu. car. Canst thou allege unto me one only example taken from the true servants of God. And that fashion to celebrated the supper particularly, is it not a right excommunication, Excommunication for communion. The institution of the supper. Mat. 26. c. 27 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. Marc. 14. c. ●2 Luc. 22. b. 17 and not a communion? For hath our Lord jesus Christ instituted his supper only for the Priests? Would he not that bread, which he distributed unto his Apostles, should be divided and distributed unto his Apostles, should be divided and distributed among them? And that all should drink of that cup and of that wine, which representeth his blood? Wherefore hath he commanded that; but for to give us to understand, that as he gave his body & his blood for the health & salvation of all men, that he would in like manner, that all his elect should be partakers, & that all should communicate with him, in the holy supper, & should be fed & refreshed with his flesh and his blood, thorough the virtue of his holy spirit? Even as then jesus Christ was not only delivered unto death for the Priests, but for all the faithful, both generally and particularly, so he would not that there should be but the Priests which should be partakers, but all those for whom and unto whom, he gave it. For as much then as he would not only by the holy predication of the gospel, but also by the sacraments, & chief by the holy supper, feed & refresh us with his flesh & his blood, & to make us feel the better the virtue & efficacy, & to confirm our faith & to comfort our consciences: thou canst not deny, but that the Priests do great wrong unto the Christian people, to deprive them from such a ●ood thing: For as much also as they do not admit to their communion the people, they declare that they are of an other communion & religion then of his, & that they account them not for Christians, but for jews, Turks, & Infidels, whom we do reject & excommunicate from the sacraments, & from our communion, because that they are enemies of our religion. Is not that an act altogether repugnant unto the intention of jesus Christ, who would that his supper should be common & general to all his people? and those here do make it particularly, Furthermore, wherefore is it called a communion if it be not common unto all the Christian people, as the name importeth and signifieth? of which also is taken the name of excommunication, by the which we do signify the separation Communion & excommunicatign. Mat. 18. c. 17. 1. Cor. 5. d. 11. 2. Cor. 13. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. d. 19 and rejection of him, who thorough his evil deeds is driven out from that holy communion, and cut off from the body of the Church, as a rotten member unworthy to communicate with her to jesus Christ, who is the head, according to the ordinance that he hath made, and the practice of his Apostles. hilarius. These are the most subtilest hosts, that ever The most subtilest hosts in the world. the earth did bear. For they do lay the table clot, in their Inn, before the people, afterwards, they do drink up the wine all alone, in their presence, and do eat all without participating any part to their compaignions', and do lick their fingers the which they have wet in the chalice, saying: Quia pius es, with such an appetite that they do cause I desire unto women with child. Wherefore I am not abashed of the which the Turk said, after that he had seen The saying of the Turk touching the Popish Mass the Mass celebrated among the christians: that he did think that at the sacrifice of the Christians, there was but little charity, sith that there was one which did eat and drink up all, without giving part unto others which stood by. But what would he have said, if he had known that after that that good host had laid his clot and put his sop in the wine, and banqueted all alone, he caused them to pay the shot that have tasted nothing at all of it, but did only behold it a far off, not daring to approach or come near the table? Eusebius. You take all in the worst part you can. Although that the Priest, which celebrateth the Mass, doth communicate all alone really and sacramentally, it followeth not therefore, but that all the assistentes do perticipate To communicate sacramentally & spritually. by faith and spiritually, as well as the Priest which singeth the Mass. But that is done, for the dignity and reverence of the Sacrament. For if it were so common and frequented and used to all men, they would make none account of it. And although that the common people do not communicate every day with the Priest, yet nevertheless the lay people have their days, for to communicate and celebrated the supper when they require it, and chief on the festival and solemn days, in which they do receive the body of jesus Christ sacramentally. Theophilus. If it do profit as much him which doth not communicate really the Sacrament, as him which doth communicate so that he have faith, as well as the communicant, to what end then serveth to go to the supper? And wherefore hath jesus Christ said: divide this bread among you, and drink ye all of this cup? we shall then need no more if we will not take the supper really: But that the father may sand his son: the husband his wife: the master his servant, which may communicate for them, and they without moving or wagging themselves, shall communicate spiritually by faith, so that the intention and devotion be such in them. I am not ignorant but that the true communication is spiritual and thorough faith, without which the outward bringeth more damage then lprosite. But dost thou think that jesus Christ hath instituted the sign and the extericure Cermonye of he Sacrament will, out cause? and that he● would not but that we ourselves should communicate, except we have some lawful let, which draweth us back, as sickness, imprisonment, fault of minstringe it, or other like doubt, which proceedeth not of our fault, of infidelity or despising it? truly I will not deny but that in such a case, those which cannot be present at the suppen, should have just excuse, and that they do communicate spiritually with jesus Christ. But I demand of thee. Eusebius, if thou wouldst be content, that an other should dine for thief and if in fasting thou shalt be refreshed with the meat that an other shall have eaten? Thomas. As for myself I wil●not agree unto it. For that is no place in which he must have a lieutenant and vicar. I bade rather have him in all other things then A vicar at the table. in the table. Theophilus. If you would not in coryorall things, wherefore will you accept it in spiritual things & can I The vicar of saith. live of your soul, or you o● mine? Thomas. No. Theophilus. Now for as much as the faith is the life of the soul, it must be that every one do live of his own, and we must not say I believe: as my maybe believeth. But it must be that I myself do believe, and that I Abac. 2. a. 4 Rome 1. b. 1● Gala. 3. b. 11 do know and understand that which I believe. Furthermore, sith that the word of God, the preaching of the Gospel, the administration of the sacraments are means by which God nourisheth, keepeth, augement●th, and confirmeth the fatith in us, as the life, the body, by the means of bread, and other meats, we aught to understand, that as there is no man that can take food and nourishment for me, if I myself do not take it, so cannot he hear the Gospel, nor receive the Sacraments, for me: But it is necessary that I do them myself in proper person. If I will have the profit, yea, though I were an Emperor. Now if though living cannot do it for the living, what can they do for the dead? In like The supper for the common people. manner, as touching the general supper which is made among all the people, how do the Priests handle yors? It was not enough for them to have usurped the Sacrament for them alone, a great time, but that they must yet defrande you of the moiety, the same days that The moiety of the supper taken away from the people you would communicate. For they do not give you to drink of that same wine the which they do drink, but have established and concluded, by their counsels that it sufficeth the lay people to communicate under one kind only, that is to say, of the bread: and that there should be none but they, which should communicate under both kinds of the bread and wine. And the same The Council of Constance & of Basile. was determined in the counsel of Constance, held in the year 1415. the xb, day of june, in the 13. Sessions against the authority not only of the word of God, but of all the aucinet Doctors, and also of their decrees and Canons. Wherefore it is easily to judge of what spirit those were lead that were there assisting, and which have made such determination, & have judged john Hus and Jerome of Prague to be burned, who upheld the doctrine of the ancient Church. At the lest they could not deny but that they were constrained to condemn either that counsel, or the same of Basle, which afterwards ordained that it was permitted to the Bobemians to communciate under doth kinds: the which was obtained by great disputation, as the Chronicles do witness and the Epistles written of that matter. But there is no doubt, but that the same of Basle is therein more agreeing to the ancient doctrine. It is marvel that they do forbidden the cup unto the lay people, and their own canons in some places do judge those for sacriledgers & excommunicate, which do take it but in one kind, & do not take the cup, as it it is easily to see, de cosi dist. 2. in many Canone. Thomas. But there is great difference between that that you drink & there is, For they think the there's is no more wine, but that it is changed into the blood of jesus Christ, Transubstantiition. thorough the virtue of their consecration. But they do account and take yours, but for wine, because that it was consecrated. hilarius. They give it you but for to rinse & wash the teeth: if peradventure there do stick any of the flesh which they have given you to eat. For according to the witness which Humbert Cardinal, a Rorguignon hath rehearsed in the honourable recantation that he made The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con. dist. 2 Lgo Berengarius. for Berengarius, containing the faith of Pope Nicholas, the which they have caused him to rehearse and recite, we must believe, that the body of jesus Christ, is there taken with the mouth of the faithful, and chewed & bruised with the teeth. It is most certain, that their wine is no more blood, then yours. But year seeing the opinion that they have, and that they do esteem it more precious, they do you injury, to deprive you of it. Theophilus. I do marvel? how they dare deprive the people from the cup, more than from the bread, sith that jesus Christ hath said expressly, take ye, and drink you al. But there is no doubt, that the private & particular Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19 masses, have engendered this error. For even as the Priests have usurpled the office to celebrated the supper for others, to make their dignity to be of more value, so they would make there's to differ from the same of others, & to take that both kinds for themselves, & leave only but one unto the people, to the end they do estme, that the mass & supper, which the priest celebrateth, were more worthy & of more greater merit, than that other faithful, & that it bringeth unto them more gain. For after that the people were persuaded in the opinion, every one did set them awork, as workmen hired by days for to sing, both for the quick & for the dead: whereof they received great gain, of which we do yet at this day see the great riches & treasures of the Monks of the order of S. Bener, & of Cluny, who by that other monkish orders have followed The Convent of Monks. which have been hatched, engibred & brought up of that came hen. Now when they did perceive that their gain warred very great, they have always better magnified their work, and went v●to it with such a fervent yeale and affection, that there was a Priest which would sing three or four Masses in one day, so that they would give him money: i● such sort that there was in no Fair whatsoever it were & any merchandise more frequented and used then this heers in their shop. Wherefore Multitude of Masses for hid De con dist. 1. ca sufficit. the Popes were constrained to forbid, that no Priest should sing any more than one Mass in one day, without dispensation, except in the sens● of Christmas: And they attributed that ordinance unto Pope Alexander, who invented the holy water? It was in like manner decreed that none should take upon him to celebrated, but that there should be at the lest two What company aught to have the Mass De con. dist. 1. ca Hoc. quoque for to hear it. And they do add the reason, saying: If there be not two at the lest, how can the Priest say, Dominus vobiseum: The Lord be with you? O rate pro me fratres: brethren pray for me? hilarius. They must say: Dominus tecum: as the Angel Gabriel did. Theophilus. Do ye not behold a goodly Philosophy? Although that I do think, that they have also regard, that the mass aught to keep and hold some show of the communion, the which could not have any great show or colour, except there be two or three at the lest with the Priest. For that cause I think, that they have in like manner taken the custom, to break their hest in three pieces, because that it is written, that jesus Christ did break the bread, and gave it unto his Disciples. Then for to represent in their particular supper, that Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. ●2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the host. fraction & distribution of the bread: which cannot be done unto one alone, they do yet keep the fashion to break it after the example of jesus Christ. But because that they alone do eat it up all without distributing it unto others, yet they would nevertheless counterfeit the example of jesus Christ, giving to understand that they do take the parts which they do make, in steed of them, in whose name they are made, & for whose intent they sing them. And the Master of the sentences and also Gratian, do De con. dist 2. ca triform Sergius. 2. O● porci. Plat. make the author of that law and ordinance Sergius. 2. Who before that he was pope, was called: hogs snout. But because that that name seemed to him vile, he caused it to be changed into this same: sithence which, the custom continued among the Popes, that when they are choose into that office, they do change all their names. All that The names of the Popes changed. was done about the year of our Lord 742. after the death of Charlemagne. The Doctors which came afterwards do tell the reason, wherefore that division of the host is divided in three parts: And say, that that which is put and Bonavent. li. 4. dist. 12. Hilbert, in eleg de Eucha●istiu. cast into the Chalice, and made wet in Wine, is offered for the health and salvation of the living. The other two dry parts are for the dead, the one for the praise of those which are now in Paradise. The other for those which are in the pains of Purgatory, for to deliver them. Although that, there are others which do attribute the wetting in the Wine, unto the blessed, which are now in Paradise. But I am now abashed of those which have found out that manner to wet and moisten the bread with the wine, that they have no regard to their Canons which do rebuke & condemn very sharply some which had that evil custom to wet the bread with the wine, and chiefly some Egyptian Churchés. But they have made it no conscience to do that which their ancestors have forbidden and condemned to others. For all thing is permitted unto them. Although that the Priest doth make the supper all alone for all the Saints & Saints in Paradise, and for all the quick and the de●d. And for that cause was put into the supper, the Memento of the The memento of the quick & of the dead dead, in the Canon of the Mass, with that of the living, the which yet nevertheless one cannot find in the ancient Missels of the Romish Mass, written by hand: Wherefore it is most li●●st, that it hath been at dead so af●rwardes, by those which have applied the merit of the Mass unto th● dead. But they have done yet worse, for where the supper aught to be a Comaieinoration of the scathe and passion of jesus Christ, and a sacrifice of praise, ●or to receive jesus Christ, not for to offer him up, there The s●pper a 〈◊〉 of re●●●tion. have made a sacrifice of reconciliation, for to offer up jesus Christ unto God his father, for the redemption and salvation of the souls, aswell of the dead as of the living, which counteruayleth as much in resolution as so deny altogether the Sacrifice of the death and passion of jesus Christ. For as much then as the supper, which aught to be common unto all the faithful, was converted & changed into particular Masses, & that so many false opinion have been adjoined unto it, the better to elcuate his authority and dignity and the Priests which sing it, the use of the true supper of jesus Christ hath been almost altogether abolished, and is so greatly despised, that almost none maketh any account of it. For even as the Priests The despising & contemning of the supper. did run after their Masses, because of the gain, the people on the otherside, did follow them because of the opinion that they had of their dignity. And did make no great account of the comen supper, but they referred themselves altogether unto the Masses of the priests, insomuch that there were but a few, to whom they did esteem to communicate: But did give the charge unto the Priests King Lewes. to do that for them. Wherefore King jews the son of Charles, seeing the people to communicate so rare & seldom in comparison to the ancient Church, was compelled to make Laws and Statutes, that the lay people, should at the lest, communicate at the supper three times Statutes for the communion. in the year: The which law Ansegisus hath put in writing, and it was done in the year of our Lord ●yght hundroth Ausegisus. li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan. De con. dist. 2. & h●. Concilium Aga th●se & ●lib●●t. De cen. dist. 2. 〈…〉. and fifteen. The which nevertheless hath not been yet observed, because of the great estimation that they had of the particular masses. For notwithstanding that Pope Fabian and the Council Agathian and Ehbertin, had decreed that the lay people which receiu●d not the Euchatiste? at the lest, at Easter, Whitsoutide & Christmes should not be counted for catholics, yet nevertheless the supper is so greatly despised that the lay people must be compelled and constrained by commaunding from the Emperor, Concil. Latera at the Council of Lateran, to communicate at the lest once in the year at Easter, for to keep the old custom of the ancient Church, which then was very much corrupted, as one may in like manner judge by the general Council of Pope Innocentius, and by the Canon of The council of Pope Innocent. Clement the third, which was made about a thousand two hundredth years after the nativity of jesus Christ: De pen. & remiss. omnis v● 〈◊〉 Albert. li. de missae mist. Although that Albert allegeth other reasons, but those have been the causes. Behold how the Christians have been led, and into what pit and depth the Commemoration of the quick and of the dead in the supper, hath drawn them. There remained none but the Greeks, which The conslareie of the Greeks. have kept it well, and which have kept nearest and most constantly by the ancient custom of the Apostles. For yet at this day they do not allow the particular Mass, and they take not the eucharist but with company, & that the minister doth distribute it to the people. And this is very clear and plain unto the Churches, which they have a great number of them, under the signory of the Venetians. Also they could not suffer that one should deprive them of the Cup or Chalice, the which is one of the parts of the Sacrament, but do keep still that communion, as it was under both kinds, from the time of the Apostles themselves in the Latin Churches, in Africa and Europa, until the time of Frederick the first. Even so have they done in the article of Purgatory, Purgatory retested of the greeks the which they would never agree unto, although that it was received and allowed by the church of Rome. Eusebius. But although they have resisted it of long time, were they not in the end constrained to allow and acknowledge it, and to abjure their error and heresy, at the council of Florence, consenting with the Romish The Counsel of Florence. Church? Theophilus. Thou hast said very well, constrained. For that Romish tyrant never ceaseth until he hath seduced and brought subject unto him all other Churches, either thorough craft and subtlety, or else by force & violence. Yet nevertheless, before that the Greeks consented unto him, how long time have they resisted? And afterwards, what are those that have consented and after what sort? whether that the Purgatory such as they have preached unto us until this present time, was founded and binlved upon the holy scriptures, and worthy to be held and taken for an article of the faith, as they have constrained us, it followeth that all the Greeks and all their Churches should have been heretics until the year of our Lord a thousand four hundredth thirty and nine, that the Council was held. But how and by whom was it celebrated? were there not then Scisines & Antipopes in the Church? For some of them did draw & gather Schisms & Antipopes. Plat. in vita. Eng. li. council. The Counsel of Bustle. Pope Martin. Sigismond Emperor. themselves towards Almaigne and assembled themselves at Basle at the Council begun by Pope Martin, the predecessor to Eugenius, at which was the Emperor Sigismond with the Princes of Spain, Almaigne, Pannonia and France. Others assembled and gathered themselves together and went to the Council of Ferrara, which afterwards was transported to Florence, because of the plague The Counsel of Ferrora. Plague. Pope Engenius which was so cruel and terrible at Ferrara, that all were very much afraid, chiefly the Greeks, which trembled with fear. Wherefore Pope Engenius, who ruled at that Council was constrained to transport and remove it to an other place, and to end it at Florence. Yet nevertheless, forasmuch as the Greeks were so long time held and kept in the doctrine of the ancient Church, they should not have lost much, to have persevered and continued still in it. And if they had well marked their case, God gave them warning enough and advertisements that he took no great pleasure in that that they did take in hand, sith that he assailed them with that great horrible plague. On the otherside, they might well judge how well they could agreed with the komish Church, the which was divided within itself, and at discord in the house. For Pope Eugenius held his Council at Ferrara & at Florence, and would not be assistant to that at Basle, in which the Emperor was present. On the contrary, those which were assembled at the Council of Basle, would not acknowledge Eugenius for to be Pope, but did choose an other, to wit, Aim Duke of Savoy, who as then led an Hermit's life A yme Duke of Sanoy. Ripailles at Ripailles, but after an other sort than the ancient Hermits in times past. For his Hermitage was a goodly and pleasant Castle, in a most pleasant place, hard by Thonon, as it appeareth yet at this day. After his election Pope Felix. be was called Felix, were not all these things proper and fit for to give a fair show unto those Counsels? And Purgatory receyned by the Greeks. that same of Florence in which the conclusion and agreement of purgatory, was made with the Greeks, aught it not greatly to be esteemed, for to have an Eugenius for their Precedent which hath moved all Italy and all Christendom to war? And how shall the Greeks that were sent be acquitted and discharged of their office? hilarius. They have betrayed both their countries & their Churches, as they have well declared by the dignities and offices which they have received of the Pope. Theophilus. Therefore hath he so well recompensed them. For he hath made Rutenus and Nicenus Cardmals Rutenus. Nicenus which were the chief: with Bessarion who was also a Cardinal and Patriarch of Constantinoble. If they had faithfully defended the truth, the Pope would not have Beisation choose them unto such honours. hilarius. He might as well make them Cardinals in such Rossensis sort, as Rossensis was in England: or after the sort as the Tyrants have given the read hat unto the Martyrs. Theophilus. Although that he hath done that, the better to keep by that means the Greeks subject and bounce unto him and to his doctrine, yet nevertheless he hath not yet so well practised it nor bound them, but that they were by and by revolted and truned unto their first manners, and that they had abandoned & forsaken the Popish faith, the which before they were ignorant off. hilarius. Yet they should not have lost much, if they had never learned any thing at all. But I am not much abashed though Bessarion hath easily consented unto the papistical Purgatory. For he was a great Platonist, and I believe that he was more exercised in the Philosophy of Plato, then in the true Theology of heavenvly letter. Wherefore it is no marvel, if he have easily allowed Purgatory, the which he hath already learned of his master Plato. Theophilus. Thou mayst now understand Eusebius how the Church is fallen from degree to degree, sithence the time of the Apostles, until the same of l●ertulian, afterwards of Cyprian, afterwards of Augustin and from him unto Gregory, and consequently unto our time: and how the superstition is so increased and augmented, that by the means of the Purgatory and of the Mass the merit of the death and passion of jesus Christ was altogether abolished. You must not then compare the time present & the estate of your Churches, unto the same of S. Augustin. For there is to much difference between them. It is ●● evil likelihood, that the thing in those days was somuch advanced. And doubt not, that if the holy man had thought, that it would have fallen out so, but that he would have resisted it more strongly than we do at this day. For he could not have suffered, that the grace of jesus Christ, of which he was so great a defender against the Pelagians, should have been so altogether destroyed. But the good man was overcome, because that then, the purity of the doctrine of the gospel & the estate of the church was already very much decayed & corrupted, as we may easily judge, by that which Saint Jerome witnesseth of the life of Malchus. For he was not ashamed to writ that the time The Witness Which Saint H●ereme ytueth cllus time. and age in which he lived, and Saint Augustin in lyhe manner, who was of the same time, was but filthiness & stinking in comparison of the same of the Apostles. Thou hast already herded the plaint the Saint Augustin made of man's traditions, with which the Church was overcharged. 〈◊〉 lanua 1. 9 Among which he touched the jewishness and superstition which was yet kept in Africa. We must not then be abashed, if in those days, there came up new opinions, touching the estate of the dead, the which the ancient Church was ignorant off. We must not in like manner marvel although some great learned men have been wrapped in them. For it happeneth commonly, that when men have dreamt and invented some new opinion, they will also induce others, and are angry against those that do resist them, insomuch that they will condemn them, and if they be the most wisest and of greatest countenance, they carry away the matter. After that sort was Aerius condemned, chiefly because he said, that it was Aertus. not needful to pray nor to offer for the dead. It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius, Against whom Saint Hierom against Vigtlantius. Jerome hath written so outrageously, because that he allowed not, but rebuked the watchings which they made about the sepulchres of the Martyrs, because that he known already the superstition which would follow. S. Jerome was a great learned man, but yet nevertheless a child might judge that he did great wrong unto Vigilantius, and that he showed himself to be too much a man, and more superstitious than he aught to be For at this present, the time declared unto us, that the reason of Vigilantius was a great deal better than that of Jerome: & the abuses and Idolatries which have followed that custom that Jerome hath maintained, do mamsestlye declare, that then Antechriste advanced the secret of iniquity, to whom Jerome obeyed, without taking any heed. Now let us think, that sorasmuche as such a manue as he was, did defend so sharply man's tradytions and childithe supershtious, what authority can the little one's have, which do put themselves against it or withstand The opinion that Styne August in had of Pingarory. it? and what shall the poor people do? Then when Saint Augustin did begin to writ, he did then find owers opinions of the suff●nges and prayers for the dead, among those of the Church or the Doctors of the Church, and the question of Purgatory stirred up and moved, the which he also hath sifted and fanned. He then perceiving the opinions and reasons of others, which were not without appearance of wisdom and holiness (which are the titles which the Apostle attributeh unto man's trabitions) Collo. 2. 3. 3. was somewhat troubled and moved, and burst not altogether condemn them. That was the cause wherefore he spoke of that matter after divers sorts & doubtfully, and that he seemeth some time to speak against himself. When he had no regard but to the pure word of God, he hath well spoken, as I will make it by and by appear. But when he had regard unto the opinions and reasons of others and grounded himself upon man's Philosophy, more than upon the certain word of God, he found himself sometime in great perplerity and doubt, and hath followed sometime more his humane reason, than the verity of God revealed unto him. For when all shall be well considered, where in differeth that difference that he putteth between the estates of the dead from the Li. des●●● & oper. ca 16. Addul●●. q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68 69 De civi. deili. 21. ca 26. doctrine of Plato? Furthermore, do we not see, that when he speaketh of the fire of Purgatory, for the other life, that he speaketh always as bucerteine, and as of an opinion probable and like to be true, the which he dareth not certainly allow nor disallow: But says that one may dispute of that question and always leave it in suspense. Now who would think it like be true, that that holy man, being a great keeper & an observer of the ecclesiastical & catholic doctrine, would have so spoken and written of that matter, if in his time that doctrine of purgatory, had been received and allowed of the Church for certain and sure, in that sort that those which at this Tho. in 4. dist. 21. Autho. 1. Par. 〈…〉. 10. Cap 2. present do receive so great gain would condcmpne as Her●tickes not only those that do say the contrary, but also all those which believe it not to be an article of faith necessary unto salvation. How could he call into doubt an article of faith authorized and confirmed by the Church? now we cannot deny, but that the doctrine of our faith is always one, eternal, and like unto itself, and The doctrine of the Apostles perfect. that the Apostles have so taught and instructed the Churches, that they have not hid from them any thing necessary unto their salvation, which aught not afterwards to be revealed, and chiefly that which toucheth the offices of love and charity, without which we are nothing towards God. There is yet an other point, that is, that Ra●. diui. off. li. 7. 3. q. 7. in gravib. 24. q. 1. od●. 1. de ponderet extra de renun Nisi. 5. 1. he himself is not of the opinion, that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked, may be agreeable to God. To the which opinion the papistical Doctors dare very well speak against, and affirm that it aught not to be held, but that it is too hard and rigorous (notwithstanding the he alloweth it by the holy Scriptures) because that it depriveth the dead from mercy and from so many goodly prayers and suffrages, and would 'cause the charity of those that be alive to ware cold towards them. hilarius. I am not abashed. For they should loose much, if none should offer unto them but good men? It is unto them, to whom the sentence is to hard, not unto the dead. Theophilus. If they be so bold to reprove the sentence of the ancient Doctors, when it is not fit for their purpose, although that it be confirmable unto the Scripture, wherefore may not we reject it, when it shall be contrary unto it? As touching that which thou hast in like manner declared, of his mother Monica, requiring Monica. that they should make remembrance of her, in the celebration of the Sacrament, it maketh no great matter. That was the affection of a woman, as that which she had to be buried hard by her husband. For there is no doubt, that the affection that we have towards Li. confess. 9 c●. 11. the dead, maketh that we also desire, that others should have the like affection towards us. ●nd we must not be abashed, if such humame affections, do reign sometimes in us. For we ourselves do see, that those holy The affection of the women that followed jesus women, which followed jesus Christ, from Galilee, until he was buried, willing to anoint him in his sepulchre, did not think of his resurrection, but did think to have found him dead: as the Angels rebuked them, Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. jolus. 10. ● 11. saying: why seek ye the living among the dead? There is no doubt, but that there was yet in them human affection towards the body of jesus Christ, as we have towards the dead: But to the end that we may have no more need to dispute much of it, wilt thou be contented if I do allege unto thee Augustine, against Augustine? To whom hadst thou rather stay, either upon Saint Augustine, following the opinion of men without the Scripture, and speaking doubtfully as uncertain, or unto him and other ancient Doctors, with the holy Scripture. Eusebius. I do not think, that Saint Augustine would speak against himself, nor the he hath been contrary unto the holy Scripture, nor to the ancient Doctors. Theophilus. Thou canst not show unto me that he hath affirmed the purgatory certainly: But I will declare unto thee places by the which he hath altogether abolished it. Mark how he hath put none other purgatory, than the blood of jesus Christ, he The witness of Saint Augusture against purgatory of the Pope. De civi. debt. li. 10 ●. 1. 24. The true Pargatory. De c●●. Dei. li 10. ca 22. saith, speaking of Porphyras a Platonist, that he hath not known jesus Christ to be the beginning, thorough whose incarnation we are purged. For he should have then acknowledged a purgatory. And in an other place, he saith: We have then the bictorye, in his name which hath taken man's flesh, and hath lived without sin, to the end that by him being the Priest and the sacrifice, we are made the remission of sins. That is to say, thorough the mediator of God and men, the man jesus Christ, who in his own person hath purged our sins, and restored be again unto God. For men are not separated from God, 1. Timo. 2. ●. 5. lieb. 1. 2. 3. but thorough sin, for which it lieth not in us thorough our own power and strength to purge them in this life, but therow the mercy God, thorough his clemeney, not thorough our power. For that virtue which is called ours, whatsoever it be, it is granted unto us thorough his goodness. Doth he not clearly show, that the purgation of sins is done in this life, and yet not thorough our own righteousness nor virtue? Holve can it then be done in the other life, thorough the virtue and merits of an other & Furthermore, he manifestly saith: the souls of the good men after they are De eivi. Dei. li. 13. ca 9 separated from the body, are at rest, and we must not doubt of it: but those of the wicked, are punished until such time, as the bodies of those do rise again to eternal life: and of these here, to eternal death, which is called the second death. But is it possible to speak more clearly and purely of jesus Christ and of the purgatory that we have in him, then when he saith: De trinita. li. 4 ca 13. Thorough his death, that is to say, by one only and true sacrifice, which hath been offered for us, he hath purged, abolythed and put out all that that had any saultes in us. Wherefore the higher power and those of authority do bold and keep us for to be punished: And by his resurrection hath called unto a new life we which were predestyned: he hath justified those that he called, and glorified the justified. Behold words very clear. And speaking of the opinion of Plato, he saith: Those which are of that opinion, do think that after De civis. Dei. li 21. ca 13 that one is deud, there is no other pains, then of purgatory, for to purge sins: Alyttlo after he saith: We confess that in this mortal life, there is a certain Purgatory pain. It seemeth that he somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and adversities that man suffereth Purgatory in this world. in this world, do serve him for a purgation of his sins: the which yet nevertheless, they dare not to attribute but to jesus Christ. Although that we do commonly say, of him which hath had much evil & grief in this world, the he hath had here his Purgatory. For that tasteth much of the opinion of Plato. But Saint Augustin doth not make their mention, of any paine● of purgatoy, after this life, but he saith plainly that the souls of the faithful, do Enchi. ●. 67. rest after the death of the body. But what will't thou more clearer, than when he sayeth: Some do believe that those also which have not abandoned the name of Christ, and which have been baptised in his Church, and have not bely cut off from the same, thorough any schism or heresy, that in whatsoever sins they have lived in, the which they shall not deface and put away thorough penance, nor redeemed thorough doing of alms deeds, but shall persever and continued in them continually, until the last day of their life, shall be saved thorough the fire: Although that according to the greatness of their sins and misdeeds, that fire shall be The fire dinturnall & eternal. diuturnal but not eternal. But me thinketh that those that do believe this, and yet nevertheless are catholics, are deceived thorough man's benevolence. For Contra Pelag Hypogu. li. 5 the holy Scripture, if one do look and search in it, answereth an other thing. Thou seest here Eusebius, that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory, whatsoever thing he hath spoken at other time. And saith moreover, that there is but two ways, to wit, one of damnation and Two ways only an other of salvation. But mark well his own words: The faith of the catholics, thorough the divine authority, doth first believe that there is a kingdom of heaven. Secondly, that there is a hell, in the which every apostate and stranger to the faith of Christ is punished. We are altogether ignorant of the third. But we do not find in the holy Scriptures, that there is any. It seemeth to me, that he speaketh very clearly, and that those authorities aught to suffice. thee, against all that that thou canst allege of the ancient Doctors, in the favour of Purgatory. Yet nevertheless the better Other witnesses of the most. auntion doctors against Purgatory Ter adver. Marl. li. 4. The sieldes Eh●eus. to vanquish and pull thee down. I will yet show forth unto thee some sentences of the most ancient Doctoures. Mark what Tertulian saith. It seemeth unto every one that is wise, which have herded sometime spoken of the fields Ehseus, that it hath some local determination which hath been called Abraham's bosom, for to receive the souls Abraham's bosom. of his children, and that the same region or country is not celestial, but it is yet never the less more higher than hell, in which the souls of the righteous do rest, until such time as the consummation of the things, restoreth the resurrection of all men, thorough perfect reward. I do not praise that which Tertulian hath determined of the place, without witness of the Scripture, but I To affirm uncertain things think it a very dangerous thing to define of such things without witness of the same, and I had rather staio myself upon the sentence of saint Augustine, which saith, that it should be very good, that an uncertain thing of which not only the Scriptures do make no mention of it, but do speak the contrary, that one should affirm nothing: And allegeth the sentence of Seneca, saying: Thou oughtest to affirm nothing of uncertain things, but keep thy judgement inoerteyne. Also Tertulian propounded not the same, but as an advise, not as a biffinitive sentence, and an article of faith. Yet nevertheless, although that he said it, that sentence serveth me, for to show unto thee that it was no question, in Tertulians' time, of purgatory, after the manner as you have taken it. For he putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect, and children of Abraham, which have been and shall be until the latter resurrection. It well appeareth, that he was of opinion, that they were not yet in the celestial habitations and chiefest felicity, but yet nevertheless he assigneth unto them Abraham's bosom, in which all the souls of the faithful do rest generally, without putting any difference between those of the ancient fathers, and ours, nor making mention of pain nor any Purgatory. In like manner Ireneus, who was next the time of the Apostles, is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing. For Irene. adver. ha' res. Valentma. notwithstanding: that he assigned unto the souls of all the Disciples of jesus Christ, and the true faithful, an invisible place, which is appointed and determined for them of God, in which they shall continued and abide until the resurrection, the which they do look for: Yet nevertheless he assigned but one place for all the Christians, the which he called Disciples of jesus Christ: And be saith not, that some shall be in pain and other some at rest, but he putteth them there upon a condition, and he assigneth unto all no other pain, but the tarrying and looking for the resurrection: saying, that the Disciple is not above the Master, and that as jesus Christ is not by and by risen after his death, but tarried the time that was appointed him of God his Father, so must his Disciples tarry for there's, as he hath ordained them. It is very true, that in the book which Recogn. li. 1. is attributed unto Saint Clement, it seemeth that he would put a certain kind of purgatory, but although the book were of great authority, yet nevertheless it would serve for nothing for the priests purgatory. For although that he putteth a certain difference between the most perfectest servants of God, and the others which have not nor could not entyrelye accomplish the rule of righteousness, but have yet some malice remaining in their flesh, yet he assigned no pain unto those: Although that he thinketh that the others are in more greater glory, but says, that their souls are kept in goodly pleasant and joyful regions and countries, that in the resurrection of the dead, when they shall have received their bodies, and that their resolution shall be purged, they may come unto eternal life. Behold his own words, the which he recited, as spoken of Saint Peter; unto Saint Clement. But there is no appearance, that Saint Peter hath held those words which were attributed to him in that book, nor that Saint Clement hath The book of Clement. written them, although that the book is entitled in his name. For how many propositions be there altogether contrary unto the doctrine of Saint Peter and of all the Apostles? But put the case, that the book were very awcient, and of the Author to whom they attribute it, if it be not canonized, nor of the Apostolical authority: and which is more, he putteth no purgatory, in which there is pame and torment: And when thou wouldst conclude by those words, that there should be some manner of purgatory, I will vanquish and overcome thee by himself, either that there is none, or else that it is for Purgatory is either far all, or else there is none. all men: And that there is no man so holy, but that he must be purged in the same. For there was never any so just and righteous: which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteousness: which hath been without sin: & which hath not prayed with all the Saints, according to the witness of David; for his unquitye, Psa 32. and saith: pardon our sins: and in whom one could not find enough for to purge, yea, after this life, except he had any other purgation, then that which is made by the blood of jesus Christ. But although The diversltie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead. there were none other reasons, for to prove that the suffrages for the dead, and the purgatory, are found out and devised by man's inventions, than the diversity of opinions of those which have written and spoken of it, yet the argument is very strong. for they do propound the doctrine so uncertain, that one cannot make any resolution, and a great deal less, then of the opinions of the Philosophers: but do leave always the conscience uncerteyne, against the nature of the word of God, which always is certain and clear. hilarius. Me thinketh that I do see them hold so their pro & contra, that they would make of the Theology, Theologia Ac. ● demma. an Academia, in which one may dispute probably, on both sides, without giving any certain resolution, but leave all things in doubt. For what foundation hath all that which they do affirm and say, but upon fables and man's opinions? The which we may as surely deny, as they to affirm them: yea, by more just reason. For we have more Scripture for to tell them the contrary, than they have of apparent reasons, for to prove that which they affirm: for they are Doctors, of which the Apostle speaketh off, which do not understand that which they speak, nor which they teach and affirm. Theophilus. If they were so modest and reasonable 1. Timo. 1. b. 7. as the Philosophers Academians, they should not be so much to be despised and blamed. There is no doubt, but that it is required, that we be assured in the doctrine of The certainty in the doctrine of the faith required. the faith and religion. For there can be no faith, where there is but opinions, without certain persuasion. Wherefore the Theologians have not so lawful and just excuse, as the Achademians. For when the question is but of humane and natural things, it is not so great a danger to follow the opinions of men, and to abide in doubt: But when it is a question of faith and religion, it must be that the conscience be assured: the which it cannot be, but by the certain word of God. Now we do clearly see, that in such matters they go not but by The disputations of the babblers of divinity. conjectures and presumptions, and every one of them saith and speaketh that which cometh in his fantasy: But if they do that but amongst themselves, by manner of disputation, as the Academians did, and after the manner as saint Augustine did put forth the question of purgatory, without affirming it, as an article of saith, we would let them dispute as long as they will. But behold that which is worse, they would, that their opinions should be received and allowed, as oracles and revelations descended from heaven: and they pronounce and give their sentence, with more greater authority, then if they did speak of the pure word of God: and do compel the Christian people to believe & confess, as an article Temerine to affirm. Tho. m. 4. dist 21. of says, that which they have dreamt and invented, judging and condemning for heretics, all those which do speak against it: in such sort that it is more dangerous to speak against, & withstand their decrees & decretals, than the commandment of God. For our Lord jesus Christ saith, that all sin committed by men may be pardened, 〈…〉 Sin 〈◊〉 holy Ghost except the sin and blasphemy against the holy ghost. But it is written in the decroes and Canons: woe do command, that all decretal constitutions of all the Popes should be Dist. 19 ca 51. Romanorum. kept in such sort, that if any do commit any thing contrary unto them, that he do know that pardon is denied unto him, and that he shall not have it. hilarius. I do then conclude by that Canon, that sin To sin against the Pope. against the Pope, is sin against the holy ghost, because there is no pardon. We must not jest with them. I will compare them to the Academians, but I had a great deal rather that they were like unto them, than such as they are. Theophilus. It should be a great deal better to define nothing rashly, of that whereof they cannot be certain: The cou●cell of Saint Augustin. in Genes. 11. 10 and to follow the Counsel of Saint Augustin, speaking of the rich man of whom mention is made in S. Luke: It is better to doubt of secret things, then to plead of uncertain things. I doubt not, but that we must under stand that the rich man is in most extroeme hot pains and torments: and that poor Lazarus in joy and comfort. But in what sort one aught to understand that flame and fire of hell: that bosom of Abraham: that tongue of the rich man: that finger of poor Lazarus: that thirst of torment: that drop of refressing, with much a do we can find of those which do seek it with meekness and modesty: but of those which do debate of it with contention and strife, many. Hillariu. If Saint Auguslin, had always followed, that which he teached here, his doctrine would have been more pure, and would have spoken yet more soberly than he hath done of the suffrages for the dead: sith that he had no sure nor certain witness in the word of God. Theophilus. jesus Christ hath not fore spoken without Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in dańger to b. seduced. cause, that if it were possible, the very elect should be seduced and deceived by the false Prophets & false Christ's. Wherefore we aught not to marvel although Saint August●n, and such as he was, have sometime been overcome. But for us we aught rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Gospel, seeing it fulfilled before ou● eyes, & we aught well to learn by the example of others, to walk in the fear of God, without straying or wandering any thing after our opinions and fantasies. For if already from the time of the Apesties, Antichrist did bée●in his reign and work his secret of iniquity, we must 〈◊〉 doubt, but that he was much advanced in the time of Saint Augustin. And the Apostle calleth not without cause, his work and business the mystery of iniquity. For The reign of 〈…〉 and he working of 〈…〉 ●●●. 59 a. 5. he hath proceeded and go forward so secretly, craftily and subtly, that the most holiest and best learned, have been overcome. use hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice, and Basilikes eggs, before he could be perceived, and hath practised his matters so subtly under the earth, that scant one could know, to what end he tendeth, until such time as he hath ended and finished his work, and that jesus Christ, by his Gospel, hath opened and revealed it to his elect: as we do see by experience, at this 2. Thess. 2. b. 5 present time: And as I trust, shall do yet more hereafter. Wherefore we knowing into what inconveniences our fathers are fallen into, yea the wisest and most perfect in attributing to much to the authority of men and to their opinions and traditions. Let us take heed, to affirm and Rash determinations & ●●●●nations. propound unto the christians, as an article of faith, and doctrine necessary to salvation, any thing, of which we have no certain witness by the holy scripture, & of which by them we are not clearly resolved. For that cometh thorough to great temerity and presumption, the which God will not leave unpunished. But which is more, although the thing should be very true, and so as it hath been preached unto us, yet nevertheless, sith that the word of God doth not make any express mention of it nor doth clearly show forth, of which we can draw any certain consequence, and of which we have no commandment of GOD, we may safely be ignorant of it, without danger of our salvation. For sith that the Scripture is given unto us for our instruction, what thing we may safely he ignorant off, and what not. not for us to inquire of the estate of the dead, but for to learn us the way for to come unto the place of that holy eternal rest, and true felicity, we aught to content ourselves, to know that which is commanded us and which to the same is necessary for us, and we may not be ignorant of them, without damage and hurt of our salvation. And therefore, we have no need, but to hold us to jesus Christ, and to assure ourselves upon his promises, being certain and sure, that that which he hath promised unto that poor thief hanging upon the Cross with him, saying: This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise, Luc. ●3. s. 43. toucheth and concerneth every one of us, as much as him, if we be true faithful. Behold the limits which the Scripture appointeth unto us, within which we must devil, without tormenting ourselves after the estate of the dead, and Purgatory, of which it maketh not mention of it one word. Eusebius. I know very well, that although I should allege all the Doctors which have been sithence the death and passion of jesus Christ, until this present time, that I shall profit nothing with you. For when you perceive that they are contrary unto your opinions you will not receive them but when you think that they do make for you: But you will runile to the Scripture, as the pleaders which have an evil matter, do seek and find out all the delays that they can, and do call always from sentence to sentence, what soever wrong it be, or for to delay their condemnation, or under hope that they have to find out some practice or shift for to deceive and overcome their party, and to corrupt the judges. Wherefore I do well perceive that I shall be nothing with you, if by the clear and plain text of the Scripture, I do ●ot slop your mouth. Theophilus. If thou cansl do it, thou hast got the victory. For unto the same do appertain the extreme or latter Vn●o whom do ●●perreyne the extreme appe●●●vions in causes of ●d. ygloa appellations. And therefore it seemeth to me, that you do greater wrong than we, without any comparison. For we do not put ourselves out of reason, nor from the ordinary of justice, sith that we do appeal to none other then to our ordinary. judge. For what wrong to we unto men, Ordinary judge if from them we do appeal before God which is the sovereign judge of all creatures, which hath already giué his sentence of our differences, by his word, and by the mouth of jesus Christ his son, and of all his Prophets and Apostles, unto the which we aught to stay ourselves? Divine & human councils Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8. But you not being contented with them, do appeal from God unto men: and from the counsel of the Prophets and Apostles, of whom jesus Christ is precedent & chief thorough his holy spirit, to the counsels of men, in which The power of the Pope. Dist. 34. c. ioctor. Glos. & dist. 82. ca Hrestyter. & Glo. Apostolorum 17. q. 4. ca 51. siquis. dist. 40. c St Papa. Dist. 96. c. Satis etc. simplices & inscriptis. the Popes do rule and are Precedent: who according to your doctrine, have such power and authority that they may dispense against the apostolical doctrine, & the right of nature, & consequently against the Gospel & the word of God. For the Pope hath all the divine and humane rights in the cabin and chest of his breast, & that he aught to judge every one & aught not to be judged of any man: insomuch that when he shall lead innumerable of people & great companies into hell, no mortal man aught here to check and rebuke him of his faults. For he is god, who cannot be judged of men. hilarius. It followeth then, that if one do see him to go to all the devils & to draw thither all the world with him, that none aught to say unto him that he doth evil. For he that saith it, both Dist. 40. ca Si Papa. judgeth and rebuketh. Eusebius. The Canons do not deny, but that he is to be rebuked, if he be an heretic, & that he erreth in the faith. Theophilus. But you do say that he cannot err. And The joy out ●f th': 〈◊〉 herefore when he is an heretic and out of the faith dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine: no not by our authority and silence, but by the same of God and of all his Prophets and Apostles, the which we do but propound: yea which is more, by that or the ancient Doctors, as thou mightest have seen and known if thou wouldst. And if thou do not content thyself with that, I will The witness of Antichrist against his Purgatory. De bapt. & ofsee. cap. Maiores causat. God pardoneth not the moylie Versus Magistrales ex glosa Larga D●i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam. nil. aut. totum te lacrymante dabat. show unto thee, how that wicked Antichrist condemneth himself of his own mouth, and confesseth that there is no such Purgatory, as he would establish. For he himself confesseth, after that he is much glorified, that God, which hath saved all men, knoweth no work of imperfection. And for that cause, be pardoneth not sins in part. Therefore the gloze made upon that text allegeth, two verses containing that sentence: The great goodness of god, will not pardon the half. For when with tears & weeping thou comest unto him, he will give thee all or nothing. Now if it were so that God reserveth one part of the sins, for to be punished in Purgatory, as you do affirm, it should follow that God worketh not but half with his servants, the which none can say, without blasphemy: For the works of God are perfect. Wherefore Deut. 32. ●. 4 if thou have not Eusebius any better refuge in the holy Scripture than thou hast yet showed forth, thou hast lost thy cause by the sentence of God, and of all his servants: yea of Antichrist himself whom the virtue of God compelleth to confess the truth, against his own nose and inspite of his teeth, as the devils did confess jesus Christ Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. ●. c. 25 feeling his power, the which they could not resist. Thomas. Thou dost here what matters these people here have declared unto thee, Eusebius: Thou hadst almost won me at the beginning of this disputation, & confirmed me in thy opinion, when that I herded thee propound the words of Saint Augustin. But now, after that I heard their replying, I am more uncertain than before. Wherefore I must here the rude of that cause, & the last sentence, the which is given by the word of God. I have determined to declare unto you the cause of my voyage. as I have promised, after that Eusebius shall have done with you: But I am content to defer it until tomorrow, to the end I may return unto you more resolved. Wherefore I pray thee, Eusebius, that thou prepare thyself to fight with them valiantly by the sword of the word of God, and that we may see the end of that Purgatory, and also of the Limb, whereof the matter hath been broken off, & hath not been followed nor resolved. Yet nevertheless this is one point, the which I desire almost as much the resolution, as of the Purgatory. And to the end you may have the more leisure to debate of the matter, I will hold you no longer. But because that it is now so late, therefore me thinketh that it shallbe better to take the time at our pleasure. hilarius. I do like well Thomas his counsel. Theophilus. I am content that we do suffer & grant unto Eusebius all that he would have, to the end we give him none occasion to complain, that he hath had no time and the mean to defend his cause. Eusebius. Sigh that it is so, I do agree to your opinion: But it is upon such condition, which is of force, that before that I depart from you, either that you be of mine opinion, or I of yours: whereupon say a dieu, farewell. Unto the Reader. It seemeth unto me good to add unto thee here the sequence of those that be dead in Latin, the which was omitted in the margin, Fol. 167. where it is translated faithfully into English meeter. Oratio sive sequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis. Lugentibus in purgatorio, Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur sine remedio, Subueniat tua passio. O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes sanas & nullum respuis, Manum tuam extend mortuis Qui sub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia, suspirant mortui, Cupientes de poenis erui, Et adesse tuo conspectui, Et gaudis aeternis persrui. O Maria. Clavis David quae coelum aperis, Nune beata succurre miseris, Qui tormentis torquentur asperis, Educ eas de domo carceris. O Maria. Lex iuslorum, Norma credentium, Vera salus in te sperantium: Pro desunctis sit tibi sludium Assidue orare silium. O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos suscita, Et dimittens corum debita: Ad requiem sis eye semita. O Maria. FINIS. ¶ The table of the principal matters of the second part of the Christian disputations. A. A Bell hearing Mass. 184 Abragan, 154 Abstinence and separation from women. 141. Abstinence from lawful things. 141. Abstinence from beasts flesh. 170 Abstinence from meats. 171. Accidents burned. 161. Accidents without substance. 162. Adam priest. 185. Admirasion of the water and salt. 152. Adonis. 150. Aduent. 139. Aerius. 192. Eaesculanus. 143. Affection foolish towards the dead. 181. Affection of women that followed jesus. 193. hallelujah. 150. Alexander Pope. 141. 163. Alexander Nativity. 156. Amburbales. 149. Aneylia. 161. Anchiles. 129. anniversaries 128. 130 Anexagoras. 123. Answer to the place of the 19 Chap. of Exodus. 117. 144 Antipopes. 190 Antiquity of the name of Mass. 183. Antiquity of the Egyptians. 184. Antiquity of the Areadians. 184. Antiquity and instruction of marriage. 185 Apes of the Apostles. 126 Apparel white. 167 Appearing of spirits to what end they pretend. 135 Appellations extremes to whom they belong. 198 Apophthegm of Diogenes. 153. Artillery Papistical. 116 Aspersions and sprinkling at the entering in & coming forth of the temple. 153 Ashes holy. 168 Ashes of an Heifer. 171 Ashes of the Ancients 169 Ashes of the vestales. 171. Saint Augustine. 175 Authority of S. Augustin for the suffrages for the dead. 176 Authors of the Mass. 183. Authors of the eclestiall and Ecclesiastical Hierarchia. 126 Aim Duke of Savoy. 191 B. Bacchanales, Bacchus. 140 Banquet and supper for the dead. 132 Baptism deferred. 172 Baptism for the dead 172. 183 baptized to be for the dead. 172 Beginning of prayers for the dead. 116 Benefices and offices given by parentage. 139 Bellies given to sloth under colour of religion. 123 Bessation. 191 Berengarus. 139 Buying of the field of Ephron. 118 Blood of jesus. 163 Blessing of the bride's bed. 147 Blessing of Torches and Tapers. 153 Blessing of the Pascell fire. 157 〈…〉 171 〈…〉 ●●6. 138 〈…〉 195 〈…〉 of proposition. 144 〈◊〉 and mourning for jacob and Mosis. 117 C. candles of a good saiut. 181 candles blessed and prucessious. 151 candles for the health of soul and body. 152 Candelmes day. 147 Caru● the goddess the porter. 167 Castor and Pollus. 1●1 The cause of the mourning of the Israelites. 119 The cause of the institution of feasts. 147 Celerin and his family. 179 Cereales. 151 Certitude in the doctrme of faith required. 196 Ceremonies. 170 Chameleon. 1●3 Charms. 152 Chastity and secretly. 145 Chase away the devil by fasting & prayers. 171 Charge of ceremonies. 130 Cloris. 166 Christians savage wild. 146 Combat of Mars and Mine●●a. 136 The true Commemoration of the death of jesus Christ. 151 Commemorantes. 181 To Communicate sacramentally & spiritually. 186 Comparison of the Ashes of an Heiser & holy water. 163 Conformity and deformity of the Bacchanales and the shrovetide. 146 Conformities between the religion of the Palms and the Popes. 136 Conformity between God mars and faint Ge●rge. 137 Conformity of the feasts of the dead. 137 Conformity of Cybele to our Lady. 138 Constancy of the Greeks. 190 Complaint of Saint Augustine. 130 Co●●uring of the water. 153 To put the Lord about the neck. 144 Co●empaing of the Gospel. 14● Counsel and moderation of Saint Paul 144 Councile of Constance and of Basle. 187 Councile of Florence. 190 Councile of Lateran. 190 Councile of basil. 190 Councile of Ferrara. 190 Councile of Innocent Pope and others. 190 Convent of Monks. 183 Covetous of renown 156 Creatures of the Pope. 143 Creators of the creator. 143 Craft and deceit of a Priest of Canopus. 157 Custom of the Romans. 123 Custom of the Thracians. 122 Custom of the Cathercumenes. 172 Custom of the Lecedemonians. 123 Custom of the Lycians. 123 Custom ancient of the Massilians. 123 Cybele. 137 Cygales. 133 Cyp●●an. 177 D. Days appointed to mourn. & for what cause. 119 Days Aristotolicalls. 134 Days dedicated to the deed. 117 Dau●d and Abimelech. 141 Denis Areopag●te. 126. 177 Diana Strongilios or Diana Rotunda. 138 The deceit which Faunus did think to do unto Hercules. 147 Difference between physic and Philosphiie, a charmer and a Magicyan. 154 Dishonour unto the Urigin Mary, 151 Little dispenses & costs about the dead. 132 Dispensation of marriage. 124 Dispensations of the Pope. 141 Disputations of the babblers of divinity. 196 Disputations of the Athess of the host. 161 Diversity of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead. 196 Doctrine of the Apostles perfect. 193 Dionisiales. 146 E. Easter. 150 Ecc●●. 115 Eggs of Serpents. 197 Elect in danger to be seduced. 197 Aeneas. 129 End of man's life. 142 End of the Pope's Laws. 143 Eucratistes and Severians 141 epitaph of Lucrece. 141 Error of the Idolaters and hypocrites. 164 Example of David. 125 Excommunication for communion. 18● Exhortation to repentance. 144 F. False following of the work of Saints. 164 Fastings condemned. 170 Fastings of the ancients. 169 Fastings and abstinence of the paynim. 171 Fastings. 167 Fasting the principal use. 170 Fans and satires. 147 Februa. 131. 149 Feasts and anniversaries for the dead and their beginning. 128 Feasted for the dead in February. 129 Feasts of Martyrs and confessors. 13● The feast of the dead. 138 An other feast of the dead. 139 Feasts of mad men. 140 Feast of saint Peter's chair. 133 Feasts of the dead in May. 129 Feasts cut in pieces. 139 An other feast of the dead in januarie. 139 Feasts of fools. 140 Feast of Kings. 14● Feast of the paynim comprised in the feast of Candles. 14● Feralis Coena. 132 Fire of Vesta. 158 Fire diuturnal and eternal. 194 Fire kindled in the Temple of Vesta. 160 Fire and water the Gods of the Papists. 157 Fire the God of the Persians. 154 Fire made a God. 159 Fires of S. Brandon & of Ihon. 168 The true fire what it is. 162 Flora. 166 Florals. 151. 166. Fluona. 149 The force of gold and of Iron. 159 Fraction or breaking of the host. 188 G. Geryon. 131 Gift of continency. 144 Gifts to do miracles in the primitive Church. 126 Goddess Pecunia. 143 Goddess of Beasts. 169 God Ris. 150 God compared to fire. 155 God Canopus. 156 Gods of fire and water. 162 The great God of the Pope. 14● The most puissant God of the Priests. 158 Good friday. 150 Gold why it is pale. 159 Gregory the first. 116 Gregory the third. 116 Gregory the fourth. 138 H. Handkerchefe of Chambery. 160 Harp of Orpheus and that of the pope. 131 Hecate triva & triformis. 131 Hercules. 131 Herostratus. 156 Hilaria. 150 Holy bread and the bread of saint Agathe. 165 Holy host 158 hosts the subtilest in the world. 186 humility famed. 170 Hypocrites. 170 Hymenius the God of marriages. 136 I jeto me contrary unto marriage. 145 Saint jessiye. 140 jest of a holy father. 134 jews among the Christians. 160 Idolatry of the fire and plamrets. 155 Images Noses stopped and covered. 172 Images instruments of the devil. 155 Image of saint George cast into Saine. 137 Imitation of the jews and Panyms and of Mahomet. 128 incredulity. 171 Induction. 142 Institution of the supper. 185 Infirmity of man. 148 Interpretation of the blessing of the new fire. 157 Invocation of Saints. 181 julian the Apostate. 132 juno Sospita. 167 juno and Diana Queen of Heaven. 138 jupiter a saviour. 167 L Laughing of the Souls. 134 Law of ●uma for the marriage of widows. 124 Laws of marriage what they aught to be. 124 Laws of the Romans of the mourning of widows. 124 Law of the jewish funerals. 120 Law of fastings. 169 Laws cimles and obedience to Magistrates. 142 jews King. 1●9 Lent. 240 Liberty of the Gospel. 120 Liberty Christian. 11● Limit of man's affection. 121 Lugentibus in Purgatory. 166 Lupercales. 129. 149 M. Manner by the which the souls are de●uered. 176 Manner and fashion of mourning among the ancients. 123 Manners and life of Pope john. 139 Manicheans. 140 Man without means and how he useth the exterior things. 148 mantel or cloak of juno. 149 Marriage forbidden. 139 Marriage forbidden among the paynim at certain times. 136 Saint Marie le round. 137 Saint Margarete. 138 Mars. 149 Masses for the dead first begun. 180 Massalians and Romans. 123 Mass for the dead. 1●7 Masses private and particular. 185 The Caster Mass of the whoremonger Priests. 147 Mass what company it aught to have. 188 Mask of Satan. 138 Matter to make the Ashes. 171 Means that we must keep at the mournings and funerals, and the viees of the paynim. 120 Memento of the quick and dead. 189 Meria. 169 Metellus. 160 Mondays dedicated to the dead. 129 Monica. 176. 193 Mortie of the supper taken from the people. 187 Montanus heretic. 169 Mourning undecent for Christians. 122 Mourning of Samuel and Paul. 125 Mourning of the ancient Israelits. 125 Mourning for the living and those that be sick. 125 Mourning for the dead. 117 Mute the Goddess. 168 Multitude of Masses forbidden. 188 N. Names of the Pope's changed. 189 Nativity of Alexander. 156 Nauclerus. 116 Nensuains. 127 Numa. 129 Nymphs of the Priests and of the paynim. 133 O. Obey for conscience. 143 Objection. 117. 14● Obsequys of the Greeks in September 130 Odilo the good Abbot. 138 Office of Mercure 131. 131 Office of a wise man. 123 Olimpias. 156 Onction with oil and extreme onction 126 Opinion of Saint Augustine touching Purgatory. 191 Osiris and Serapis. 150 Order of the Christian assembles. 178 Ordinance and use of marriage. 144 Order & use of creatures turned upside-down. 153 Order of Saint Benet. 188 Order of the dead. 181 Oracle of Apollo. 132. 133 Original of private Masses. 183. Original of Images. 181 Orphens and Erridice. 131 Our Lady. 166 Ovid a Prophet of the Pope. 135 P. Palladium. 160 Palis a goddess. 168 saint Pansard. 140 Pantheon and all saints. 137 ‛ God pardoneth not the moiety. 199 Paschal taper. 158 Perfumes holy. 171 Persians without Temple or Images. 156 Philosophy Pitagorieall. 119 Phocas. 138 Place of the 1. Samuel 21. Chapter. 144 Place of joel. 2. Chapter. 144 Plaster for all sores. 153 Pluto of the Christians. 131 Pope Sergius. 150 Pope Felix. 191 Pope Pelagius. 116 Pope Martin. 146. 190 Pope Eugenius. 190 Pope out of the faith. 198 Pope what God he is. 142 To possede and keep his vessel in honour. 141 Power of the Pope. 131. 198 Power of the fire upon the Gods. 155 Prayer. 169 Praise of Tertulian. 177 Praxi●les. 1●8 Predecessors of the Papists. 135 Preparation to the Lords table. 14● Priest strooken. 153 Prose and sequence for the dead. 166 Preparation to the Bacchanales. 146 Proverb of the Moukes. 145 Procession of Mars. 136 Procession of the feait God and the holy fire. 158 Prolerpina and Hecate Queen of Heaven and Hell. 166 Profit of sackcloth and Ashes. 170 purgatorium sacrum quod vocant Februn 130 Purgations of men and beasts. 168 Purgatory and his beginning. 180 Purgatory rejected of the Greeks. 190 Purgatory is for all men or else it is not. 169 Purgatory received by the Greeks. 191 Purgatory in this world. 194 Purgatory for the quick & dead. 171 Of Purgatory a question. 181 Purgatious. 162 Punishment for despising the souls. 135 Purifications of women. 149 Purification after the funerals. 120 Purification. 149 Put on sackcloth and ashes. 169 R. Reign of Antichrist and the working of iniquity. 197 The honourable recantation of Berengarius. 188 Reciting of the Psalter. 126 Remembrance of the dead in the supper. 182 Representation of the evangelical light 151 Requeseant in Pace of the bawd. 133 Robes of the Priests doing miracles. 149 Rogations. 140. 149 Rome, old and new. 128. 135 Romulus and Remus Lemuria. 129 Rudiments of Religion. 170 S. Sacraments. 134 Sacrifice of the Altar and of a Mediator. 182 Sacrifice of praise & thanks giving. 182 Sacrifice to the infernal Gods. 149 Sacrifice in the ancient Church what it signifieth. 178 Sacrifice of the Martyrs. 179 Sacrifice of reconcilietion. 182 Sacrum Purgatorium quod vocant Februm. 130 The saying of the Turk touching the Popish Mass. 186 Schisms and Antipopes. 190 Scrip of Mercury. 131 Selling of God. 143 Separation of the husband and wife for a time. 144 Septanarii. 119 Septuagesima. 140 Sergius. 189 Severus. 14● Shrofe sunday. 146 Shadows having teeth and bellies. 133 Shadows of the dead. 133 Sigismonde. 190 Signification of a Comet. 139 Signification of February. 130 Signification of the fire of the perpetaal Holocauste. 157 Sin against the Pope. 197 Sin against the holy Ghost. 197 Sun against the Pope and against God. 142 Sins beniall deaced. 163 Sin mortal. 163 Souls and wandering shadows. 135 Statutes for the communion. 189 Suffrages of the dead. 196 Superstition of Gregory. 145 Supper what sacrifice it is. 182 Supper deformed. 183 Supper for the dead. 172 Supper popular. 187 Supper despised. 189 Supper sacrifice of redemption. 189 To take the Supper for the dead. 183 T. Table set for the souls. 133 Tacianus. 141 Thanmus. 150 temerity to affirm 196 Temples burned in Asia. 155 Temple of Diana burned. 156 Temple of Diana Ephesian. 156 Temple of Fortune. 152 Ternatii. 119 Theologia Academica. 162. 196 Thelogia Aquatica. 162 Three Popish crowns. 131 Theseus and Py●othus. 131 Time ordinary for the mourning of the Israelites. 118 Time prescribed for mourning. 121 Times of sasting. 140 Titles of Christ. 167 Titles of Images. 155 Titles of the Goddesses of the paynim. 166 Torches of the Christians. 151 Translation of the bones of joseph. 118 Translation of jacob into the land of Canaan. 118 Transubstantiation. 139. 187 V Valentinian. 152 The Uaile. 172 Virtue of jesus Christ ●anfferred to the creatures. 153 Victory of Canopus. 157 Vicar at the tuble. 187 Vicar of faith. 187 Uigiles for the dead. 149 Visitation of the sick. 126 Use of extreme unction. 126 W. Washings of the Turks. 164 Washings of the Phariles. 146 The true washings. 165 Two ways only. 194 Water of separation consecrated with the Ashes of an Heifer. 120 True holy water. 165 The whips of the Lupercalls. 149 The kind of wine. 187 Witness of the faith of the patriarchs. 118 Witness of saint Augustin against papistical Purgasory 193 Witness of the most ancient doctors against Purgatory. 194 Witness of Antichrist against his Purgatorst. 199 X. Xerces'. 155 FINIS TABULAE. ¶ THE THIRD PART of the Christian disputations. By Master Peter Viret. Translated out of French into English by john Brook of ash next Sandwich. 1. COR. CAPT. 1. XXX. ¶ jesus Christ is made unto us of God, wisdom & righteousness of sanctification and redemption. MIEULX VAULT MOURIR E VERTV QVE VIURE EN HONCTE printer's device of Thomas East, of a black horse standing on a wreath (McKerrow 206) ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East. THE ARGUMENT AND SUM of the fift Dialogue. THomas declareth the causes, for which he did enterprise and take in hand his vioage unto Saint Patrick. And inasmuch as Eusebius could not maintain his Purgatory by the aunerent Doctors of the Church, he laboureth and enforceth himself, if he can relieve it, through the aid and help of the holy Scripture, and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second book of the Marchabees: by occasion whereof, is entreated, the difference which aught to be put, between the books that are Canonical & those that are Apocryph: And it is in like manner declared in what authority & reputation that book aught to be among the Christians. Afterwards, although peradventure, there shallbe some matters, which may seem somewhat curious unto some men, yet nevertheless shall be spoken of the Limbs, as well of the ancient fathers as of the young children that are born dead, & dead without circumcision & baptism, & of the difference which may be between them which have been under the new & old testament, as well little as great, as well quick as dead, & of their condition & estate. We do entreat of those things very amply because that many do move questions, & that there is good, profitable & necessary points to be understanded, for to correct many errors, abuses & false opinions, thuching those matters, which are come among the Christians. Theridamas shallbe in like manner spoken of baptisine administered by women & declared by lively & plain reasons, how jesus Christ, is the only health & satisfaction of all the elect, & children of God: & how the virtue & efficacy of his death & passion extendeth itself from the beginning of the world unto the end of the same. Item, what is the true baptism of jesus Christ: the remission of sins, & the satisfaction worthy of the righteousness of God. To what end the god works do profit the Christian. What is the judgement of God upon the good and evil, and by what means some are delivered, and other some do abide subject. Furthermore, how the judgement is already done upon every one, and whether we aught yet to attend & look for it: And how Hell and Paradise do begin already in this world, & when their full and whole consummation shall be. It shallbe in like manner declared, how the place of the Maccabees serveth nothing at all to prove the Purgatory: And there shall be also declared of the manner, by which the ancient people of God have prayed for the dead, and for the coming of jesus Christ, and wherein the Christians may follow it, without speaking against the word of God. It shall be also touched how in our time and by what means Satan endeavoured himself to establish his Purgatory, and the prayers for the dead, and what mask & instrument he hath choose for to do that. We do call this Dialogue the Hells, because that we do declare how many hels the Papistical doctrine hath forged for us, and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded. ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGUE which is called the Hells. EVsebius. For as much as Thomas hath reserved for himself one part of this day for to make his Narration, and of his own accord hath granted unto me the greatest part, therefore it is good reason that he do begin first. Wherefore I give him the choice, whether he will go before or behind. hilarius. I desire for my part, that Thomas do rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage. For I do much desire to hear it and understand it. Thomas. Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it. For thou canst not hear of me any thing which is much worth. Wherefore I am well content to hold my peace, if you will. For I fear greatly that after that you have herded me, you will mock me, chief hilarius, who is so expert in that occupation. I believe that it is the chiefest cause, wherefore he so greatly desireth to hear my words. Wherefore I think it best Eusebius, that thou do procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent. For the matters that you have to entreat off, are better than those which you can hear of me: And in hearing you, I may profit, but in speaking, I can but spend the time, the which you will employ and best nine to a better end. And therefore begin, and after if there be any spare time, I will see what I shall do. Theophilus. I believe that we shall have time enough. Fear not them to begin, sith that thou hast already told us, that thou will't not be over long. But thou will't make us find the thing good. For that cause dost love to be entreated so much, knowing that the more thou refusest to tell unto us that we demand, so much the more we desire it. Thomas. I have regard unto another thing. I consider the which Solomon hath written, saying: if a fool do hold his tongue, he shallbe counted wise. For he compareth Pro. 17. d. 28 judgement by the world. man, to a loohing glass, or a bell the which one doth know by the sound; whether they be broken or whole. So in like manner may one judge of man, in hearing him speak, whether he be wise or foolish. For one perceiveth the spirit of man, in his word. As his figure in a glass: and one may behold in the same, the nature of him, as the complexion of the body in his water & urine, by which it is easy to judge, what drogues he hath in the shop of his brain. hilarius. Thou will't that one should say of thee, that which a Philosopher once said of a certain man that he did see sit at a banquet, which spoke not a word, although that all the others did put forth certain questions, & gave unto him matter enough for to speak in his course. If that man (says Apothegma. he) be a wise man, he playeth the part of a fool: if he be a fool, he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas. I cannot well understand that matter. For me thinketh that it containeth & implieth contradiction. hilarius. He giveth thereby to understand, that even as too much speaking appertaineth unto fools & idiots, so always to hold one's peace, agreeth to beasts, and not unto men. Wherefore there must be a mean kept in all things. Thomas. That is the same to the which I pretend: And I do think, that I speak enough according to the place & men with whom I am. And because that I am not wise, for to speak well. I will at the leastwise thorough silence thorough silence counterfeit the wise. For it is commonly said: it is evil to speak Latin before learned men. When Common proverb I am with ignorant men as myself, I do speak as a Doctor, especially if I think that I have the moiety of a dram or scruple more of knowledge than they. But when I come before you, I do lose by and by all my babbling. hilarius. Thou wouldst here very gladly make an end. But thou must first declare unto us that thou hast promised. Thomas. Sigh that thou urgest me so much, thou shalt have it: But if thou dost mock me, be assured, that I shall have as good matter against thee, for to tender unto thee the like. For thou thinkest to hear some great secret, and thou shalt find thyself deceived: dost thou not know me yet, hilarius? First of all, thou art not ignorant, how that I was never very wise. Thou mayst then presume, what merchandise I can bring forth of my shop, and what Doctor contemplative I may be. Thou knowest very well that I am called Thomas. Now if I be Thomas of name, yet I approach nearer of the nature of my godfather, of whom I do bear the name then of his name. If he hath been incredule The incredulity of Thomas john. 20. ●●●. and unbleevinge, insomuch that he would not believe the resurrection of jesus Christ, except he did see him, himself, with his own eyes, and touch him with his hand, and except he did put his fingers in his wounds. So for my part, I do doubt, and know not well whom I may believe. But I have greater occasion to doubt, than Saint Thomas had. For he heard the promise which jesus Christ made of his resurrection, of which he had not so●iust an occasion to doubt, sith that he had already so many times found by experience jesus Christ true in all his words, and that he had all his fellows and companions, who with one accord did tell him, how he appeared unto them after his resurrection, and that they had seen him and touched him. But I, which am but a poor idiot and very ignorant, what aught I to think, and whereto aught I to stay myself, when I consider the diversity of opinions which is among men, touching the religion, and namely touching the estate of the dead, and of the infernal and celestial regions and habitations, yea, amongst the most sage and wisest? As I have proved in these days among yourselves, who are of as contrary a sentence the one from the other, as the fire and the water. Therefore have I taken in hand the voyage of Saint Petricke, in which S. Patrick's wells as men say, one shall see the estate of all the dead: the torments of the dampened which are in bell, and of the souls detained and kept in purgatory and in the Limb, and in like manner the joys of Paradise. Therefore I do trust and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things, and that after I have seen them I shall be out of all doubt. For I know no more to seek any other remedies. Yet nevertheless, sithence that I have beard these matters debated more amply and clearly and better declared, then ever I did before, I have very much lost my fantasy. You do well remember, that I said, that after that I had spoken to the holy father, who hath so well disciffered that matter, that peradventure I should have gained my voyage, without going unto him, I fear very much that before that I departed from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it shorter. For I hope through the help of God, that we will visit this day all those chambers & internal habitations without moving ourselves from hence, and before that we departed, if that the one and the other of you do that, whereof you brag and vaunt yourselves you will. For you have promised on every of your parts, that you will have recourse to none other judge, but to the pure word of God. And as for me, if you take it for the judge, I am well content, The word of God judge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 05. to take it for my guide: And I am certain that it will guide me better, than Cybele guided Aeneas. Theophilus. If thou do not hold thyself assured, David, who speaketh by experience, can certify thee, saying. Thy word O Lord is a lantern unto my feet. That guide will not conduct and lead thee unto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cause Aeneas to be lead of Syble unto his father Anchises, but it will lead thee unto the living God, thy immortal father, whom by the same thou shalt hear speak, for to put thee out of all doubt. hilarius. There is also an other point, that when we shall have ended The gates of dreams. the voyage, we shall not go by the gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we have herded dream so well, as all such as he is do, which repose & rest themselves in any other bed, then upon the pure word of God. For it hath such virtue, that whosoever rests upon it shall never dream nor rave: or it be dream, he goeth not by the gates of ivory, but by the horn gate, which is clear The gate of ivory & horn & through the which one may see as with the eyes: in such sort that such dreams are more certain, then that which others do see with their eyes: as it appeareth in those of joseph and Daniel. But he that will lie or rest himself in any other bed, shall never cease to dream and wander The dreams of the Saints & of the erring Theologisters astray out of the way: And all their dreams do go by the gate of ivory, which is thick as the bones are, Wherefore one can perceive nothing by the same, as we do see by experience in our Theologians and Sophists which are so obscure and dark that one can see nothing at all. For after the they have well banketed & moisted themselves with that good Theological wine, they have the spirit of wine that which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them, & maketh The spirit of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of ivory, that is to say, between the teeth and chaws, which causeth so many exhalations of that divine liquor well tempered with wine, & so many fumes and heats to ascend and mount into the brain, that they do dream more deeper, than the lowest parts of hell and the seat of Lucifer. Afterwards they return being ravished in their Poetical furor & madness, as if they were departed all newly and fresh. But even as their dreams are entered by the gate of ivory by force of chewing and moving their chaws and coxcombs, as the Organ bellows, so do they go forth by the very same gate. Thomas. Let us then go in by the other gate, and in such sobriety, that we may know the things, as though we see them with our eyes. But who shall begin to declare & show it unto us? me thinketh that Eusebius maketh himself ready. Begin then to knock, & 'cause it to be opened unto us? Eusebius. I will enter first by the old testament. hilarius. But take good heed you lead us not awry, and to take the one for the other: For if thou do err and go astray, we will direct and lead thee into it again. Eusebius. But I will direct and lead you well. Give 〈…〉 ear then unto that which is written of I●das Machabens, Therefore I t●● trust and hope, that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things, and that after I have seen them I shall be out of all doubt. For I know no more to seek any other, remedies. Yet nevertheless, sithence that I have beard these matters debated more amply and clearly and better declared, then ever I did before, I have very much lost my fantasy. You do well remember, that I said, that after that I had spoken to the holy father, who hath so well disciffered that matter, that peradventure I should have gained my voyage, without going unto him, I fear very much that before that I departed from you, you will cut off all the way, and make it shorter. For I hope through the help of God, that we will visit this day all those chambers & infernal habitations without moving ourselves from hence, and before that we departed, if that the one and the other of you do that, whereof you brag and baunt yourselves you will. For you have promised on every of your parts, that you will have recourse to none other judge, but to the pure word of God. And as for me, if you take it for the judge, I am well content The word of God judge and guide Aene. 6. Psa. 119. c. 105. to take it for my guide: And I am certain that it will guide me better, than Cybele guided Aeneas. Theophilus. If thou do not hold thyself assured, David, who speaketh by experience, can certify thee, saying. Thy word O Lords is a lantern unto my feet. That guide will not conduct and lead thee unto thy fathers that are dead, as Virgile did cause Aeneas to be lead of Syble unto his father Anchises, but it will lead thee unto the living God, thy immortal father, whom by the same thou shalt hear speaks, for to put thee out of all doubt. hilarius. There is also an other point, that when we shall have ended The gates of dreams. the voyage, we shall not go by the gates of dreams, as Aeneas: or as our holy father, whom we have herded dream so well, as all such as he is do, which repose & rest themselves in any other bed, then upon the pure word of God. For it hath such vortue, that whosoever resseth upon it shall never dream nor rane: or if he dream, he goeth not by the gates of ivory, but by the horn gate, which is clear The gate of ivory & herne & through the which one may see as with the eyes: in such sort that such dreams are more certain, then that which others do see with their eyes: as it appeareth in those of joseph and Daniel. But he that will lie or rest himself in any other bed, shall never cease to dream and wander The dreams of the Saints & of the e●ring Theologisters astray out of the way: And all their dreams do go by the gate of ivory, which is thick as the bones are. Wherefore one can perceive nothing by the same, as we do see by experience in our Theologians and Sophists which are so obscure and dark that one can see nothing at all. For after the they have well banketed & moisted themselves with that good Theological wine, they have the spirit of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them, & maketh The spirit of Bacchus them to enter by the gate of ivory, that is to say, between the teeth and chaws, which causeth so many exhalations of that divine liquor well tempered with wine, & so many fumes and heats to ascend and mount into the brain, that they do dream more deeper, than the lowest part of hell and the seat of Lucifer. Afterwards they refurne being ravished in their Poetical furor & madness, as if they were departed all newly and fresh. But even as their dreams are entered by the gate of ivory, by force of the wing and moving their chaws and coxcombs, as the Organ bellows, so do they go forth by the very same gate. Thomas. Let us then go in by the other gate, and in such fobrietie, that we may know the things, as though we see them with our eyes. But who shall begin to declare & show it unto us? me thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready. Begin then to knock, & 'cause it to be opened unto us? Eusebius. I will enter first by the old testament. hilarius. But take good heed you lead us not awry, and totake the one for the other: For if thou do err and go astray, we will direct and leave thee into it again. Eusebius. But I will direct and lead you well. 2. Mach. 12. g. 43. Give ear then unto that which is written of judas Machabens, who sent to Jerusalem two thousand Dragmas of silver, for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sins of those which were dead. In which place he did well and right. For he had some consideration and pondering of the life that is after this time. For if he had not thought that those which were slain did yet live, it had been super fluous and vain to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead. But for so much as he see that they which died in the favour and belief of God, are in good rest & joy, he thought it to be good and honourable for a reconciling, to do the same for those which were slain, that the offence might be forgiven. Is it possible to find a terte more clearer? Wherefore did judas Macchabeus sand such a sum of Silver the number of two thousand Dragmas The value of the thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundredth Crowns, if we account them after our money, if he had not been certain, that the offerings and prayers of the lining did profit the dead? Theophilus. Thou dost here open unto us a goodly field to dispute off, and will eng●der to us many questions, the which I will propound unto thee, and we will declare them at large one after an other, and afterwards we will judge in the end whereto that place can serve you, for to prove Purgatory. I do then first demand of thee in what reputation thou hast that books of the Macchabees? The authority of the books of the Machabces. and whether thou do hold them for canonical, or apocrypha? Eusebius. I hold it but for such as it is, that is to say, holy, Canonical and allowed of the catholic Church. For is it not contained in the Bible? Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened & sowed in between or among the books of the Greek and Latin Bible, but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical, & of such Authority as the others which we have received of the Hebrews, which always have been received & allowed of all the catholic Church, without any contradiction. Eusebius. I am not now abashed, though you will not receive the authority of the ancient Doctors, sith that you are so shameless, that you dare condemn and reject the very proper books of the holy Scripture. I do know by experience that you must have a Bible made according or after your own pleasure. For you are like unto the ancient heretics which will not take out of the holy scriptures, but the places which they think most meet and proper for to give colour to their heresies: and do reject all the other, as unworthy of the spirit of God. Is not that to great arrogancy, to make the spirit of God, & his word to be subject unto your judgement? Thou mayst well perceive Thomas, that now they do feel themselves much grieved, when they are constrained to refuse the judge, unto whom they have appealled: and which in steed to be judged of him, they would judge him. Theophilus. Stay a while Eusebius. Thou hast not yet got or obtained thy suit. Think not that we are become Papists, sithence that we have spoken unto thee: And that we would attribute unto ourselves authority, power and judgement above the spirit of God, as he doth: we do leave that office unto Antichrist, to whom alone it appertaineth. We have not used to reprove one only stllable of the holy Scriptures: But if we discern & put difference between the books that are Canonical & those that are apocrypha, thou oughtest not to accuse us Books canonical & apocrypha. therefore, except thou do, by that same reason, tender culpable of the like crime the ancient Doctors of the Church, chiefly Saint Jerome, and in like manner your decrees and Canons: which do separate those that are Canonical from those that be Apocrapha, amongst which they do put the books of the Maccabees. Eusebius. I confess that among the jews, it hath not been received for Canonical in their Synagogue: but it hath not been therefore rejected of the Church. Wherefore I conclude, that those that beny, that they are not canonical, are not the sons of the Church; but bastards of the Synagogue. hilarius. Thou hast at the least kept that same of ●ccius, Behold one shot of his Canons. Theophilus. If it be so, Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enrol it among the Canonicals, in that prolegne The judgement of saint Hierom touching the books of the Machabee●. Hiero. Pauli. in which be hath recited them all in order? dost thou think that he would have rather omitted these here, than the other? And in the prologue that he calleth Galeatus, which he hath set before the books of the Kings, both he not make express mention of those books amenge the Apocriphas? and principally of the second out of the which the place by thee alleged is taken? For he says that he hath found the first written in Hebrew: But not the second, the which hath been only written in Greek. The which thing, as he says, may prove itself by the phrase and manner of the speaking, the which he used. To the which agreeth well that which he writing against the Pelagians, nameth joseph for the author of the history joseph the author of the books of the Maccabees of the Maccabees, understanding that by him it was written. Then if by the testimony and witness of Saint Jerome, that history hath been written by joseph, b●ée aught not to esteem it to be of more greater authority, than the other books of joseph, the which we do read ● no receive, The books of joseph. as histories, very profitable: But a great deal wantoth, that we should attribute unto them so much authority, as unto those, the which we do know without all doubt, to be the body of the holy Scripture. Therefore said S. Jerome in the Prologne that he made before the book of the Prouer●es of Solomon: The Church doth read the books of the Maccabees, but she receiveth them net among the Canonical. Eusebius. Then wherefore hath Saint Augustin written, De civi. Dei. li 18. ca 36 that the Church holdeth them as Canonical? Theophilus. Consider well how he hath written in that same place which thou allegest, speaking of the number of the times, which have been since the returning from Babylon, until the coming of jesus Christ. Did he not writ, that the account and number of them, are not found in the holy Scriptures, which are called Canonical but in the other, among which are the books of the Maccabees? Dost thou not see and perceive that he separateth those books from the body of the holy Scriptures. Eusebius. Wherefore dost thou cut off fthe tail? why dost thou not add, that which followeth afterwards? The which (saith he) the jews hold not for Canonical, but the Church doth. Theophilus. But doth he not add by and by the reason wherefore, the which serveth to my purpose? Eusebius. He saith, that it is because of the vehement martyrs bescre the coming of jesus Christ and marvelous passions of some Martyrs, which have fought even unto death, for the law of GOD, before that jesus Christ came in the flesh and suffered griefs and horrible torments. Theophilus. He understandeth by those Martyrs, the seven brothers of the Maccabees, The Maccabees 2. Mac. 7. a. 1 Antiochus with their mother, who loved rather that Antiochus should dismember and torment them cruelly, than they would obely his commandments for to violate the law of God. It is easy to understand by those words, that the Church hath not received those books, in such authority, as those which have been held alway sin the Prophetical & Apostolical church, nor to be sufficient, for to allow & confirm, or for to build any doctrine, which aught to be holen for an article of faith, & for to vanquish the heretics: But only in such steed, as we have at this day the ecclesiastical histories, & legends of martyrs: not a heap of foolish & fabulous legends, made by a heap of dreaming The legends of Saints Dist. 15. ca sancta. and deceiving Caphards' and Monks', as are the lives of the fathers, the golden legend, and other like, more worthy to be numbered with the Roman of Fierobras, Orson, & Valentine, the erring kinghtes, Mandevill, or the true narrations of Lutian, and others like, made for pleasure, then among the Ecclesiastical histories. But they have been in such reputation among the wise men, as the books of josephus, Eusebius, Sozomenus, Theodoritus, Socrates, and such other which have written the Ecclesiastical histories, and the lives of Martyrs, for to keep the remembrance in the Church, as in a Chornicle for to edify and comfort with good examples: But not that they are of such authority, that they are sufficient for to set forth any new doctrine, of which we have no certain witness in the Apoostlicall doctrine. And that it is even so as I do say, I will not prove it by any other witness, then by the same which thou bringest forth against me: That is to say, Saint Augustin, who hath written in an other place after this manner, saying: The jews have not the scripture of the Maccabees, as the Law, the Prophets and Psalms, to the which the Lord jesus rendereth witness, as unto this witnesses, saying: All must be fulfilled which are written of me in the Luc. 24. g. 44. Law of Moses and in the Prophet's and in the Psalms. But that Scripture is received of the Church, not without profit, if one do read and mark it soberly. Doth he not evidently declare by those words, how much the authority of the same is abased in comparison of the others, the which jesus Christ taketh for witnesses? asmuch may one gather out of an old book, which containeth the exposition of the creed, and beareth the title of Saint Cyprian. He plainly showeth that that book holdth no place in the ancient Church. Wherefore it is almost folly to strive and fight so long time, if it were not, but that our adversaries do make the poor ignorant people believe, that it is of the holy Scripture, and that we do deny it. After that sort have been allowed The Canons the Apostles. Dsti. 16. casex againta. & can canoner propter. some books, called the Canon's o● the Apostles, the which some among the ancients, and among the Popes and counsels have been held some for Canonical, and others for apocrypha, because that they do serve in many things confirmable to the Apostolical doctirne: but they were not bond unto them, as unto the holy Scriptures, which they cannot reject, as they have done often times, when they have found, any Canon, which seemeth much to differ from the Apostolical doctirne. Even so may we do of the books of the Maccabees. We may well draw out of them examples, for to exhort the faithful unto paclence, constancy and Martyrdom, propounding and declaring unto them the virtue and the faith of that good mother, with her seven sons, who stood so constantly unto death, for to maintain the Law of Good, who had not yet nevertheless such an occasion to do that, as we, which have more sure and certain witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more evident, aswell in jesus Christ as in his Apostles & disciples, than they had, And so said S. Augstyne. But it followeth not therefore that Dist. 16. ca inone. Glos. at● touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion, they should be with equal authority with the others. And therefore the gloze made upon the decree recysith them among the apocrypha. Eusebius. I would gladly that thou wouldst declare unto me a little more plainly, what thou understandest by the Canonicals and apocrypha. Theophilus. I do call canonical, all the books of The e●onicall books. the new testament the which we have: and of the do, in like manner, all those which are contained in the hebrew. Bible, the which we have received of the holy Prophets and true servants of God, and whose authors are certain and known. And we do call them Canonical, which signifieth as much as rules, because they are of an infallible verity, & a certain & sure rule which is given us of god, for to rule & examine all other doctrine, & to prove the spirits whelter they are of God, and for to live according to the same. Eusebius. And what understandest thou by apocrypha? Apocrypha. Theophilus. apocrypha, signifieth a thing hide, secret or obscure, which hath no sure or certain author: or which is not allowed as are the books, to the title is applies & made at, which are not sufferable, but insomuch as their doctrine is confirmable unto that of Canonicalls, the which aught to be ruled by them. And they have no firm authority but that which those do give unto it. For in steed that we may take a sure foundation and building, upon any place taken out of the Canonicalls, we cannot do it in those here, if they have not already their foundation on the other. They have not been called Apocrypha, because that it was not lawful to have them in one's library, and to read them with judgement, for one's profit. For that was not forbidden. But have taken that name, because that they were not of such authority, the one should hold them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God: And they were not read and expounded openly in the same, and with such authority, as those which without doubt were held for the certain word of God, to the which we are bound to believe, and to submit & put our judgement under them, not to elevate it above them, or to judge them by the other books, which aught to be subject unto them. Eusebius. And wherefore have some of them more that authority than the others? Theophilus. Because that of the one we are cert eyen, which are the pure words of God: but not of the others, but to the contrary. Eusebius. By what means? Is it not because the Church hath allowed them and not the other. Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if she do receive these here as the Canonical, & maketh them of equal authority, wherefore shall not they be in the same degree? Theophilus. I do believe that thou dost think that the church hath accustomed to legitimate the books, as Unto whom the judgement of the scriptures do appertcine the Pope doth legitimate his bastards. The Popish church may well take in, hand that, but that is not the property of the of jesus Christ. And although she would Legitimation. legitimate them, yet they must be taken as bastards legitimated by the Pope, which cannot be notwithstanding born in lawful marriage, but do abide always bastards and sons of fornication, How can the daughter engender and beget her Mother, or her Father. How can the The authority of the Church. Church give authority to the word of God, who of the same receiveth hers, and of the same is begotten and born? Of whom receiveth the Sun his brightness? Doth he receive it of men, whom he illuminateth and lighteth? Eusebius. No. But on the contrary men of it. Theophilus. Is it clear and shining because that men do judge and confess it to be such? Eusebius. No. But because that it is such, the men that do see it, and have the experience are constrained to acknowledge and confess it to be such. Theophilus. Thou meanest notwithstanding that the Sun should be clear and give light, because that men do think it to be so. Eusebius. Thou dost me wrong to impute unto me that which I never spoke, but altogether contrary. Theophilus. Thou hast said it, by other words. Whereby thou dost not perceive thyself. For when The authority of the scripture thou saidest, that the holy Scripture taketh his authority of the church, thou sayest that men do give light and clearness unto the Sun. For as David doth witness, the word of the Lord is pure & clear, that is the light which giveth Psa. 19 c 9 light unto the eyes, & giveth wisdom unto babes. It is then certain and true, not because the Church judgeth it such, but it judgeth it such because that it is so, and cannot judge of it otherwise, no more than he which hath clear eyes can judge of the light of the Sun, of which the blind person is not capable. Wherefore he cannot judge, no more than the Infidels and reprohate can judge of the word of God, nor allow it. Then thou mayst by this understand, that the certeynetye, verity and firmness doth not depend upon man's opinion and judgement, but upon the holy Ghost, and of the proper force virtue and effects by which it doth verify itself, and compelleth the faithful hearts to allow and receive it as the light of the Sun doth the eyes. For the sheep do hear and understand the shepeartes' voice, but not that of the strangers. And all that that the Prophets have forshewed and taught, the Apostles in like manner, have been verified and authorysed by the virtue of him which hath spoken in them, insomuch that all the world cannot resist it. Now we cannot say she like of the books of the Maccabees, chiefly of the second. First, for that it is not found in the Hebrew, and that the stile of the same witnesseth The second books of the Maccabees. clearly, that it was first made in Greek, and was not translated from the Hebrew tongue into the Greek tongue. We may take it for a certain rule, that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet, or man worthy to be accounted for such a one. For the Prophets have written in their proper language, to wit, Hebrew, or in the language of the The sangnage of the Prophets Chaldees, sithence the time of the captinite of Babylon. Furthermore, it is easy to know, that that book hath been written long time after the return of the people of Israel into Jerusalem, and the age of Esdras, Nehemias, The last Prophets. Aggeus, Zachary & Malachy, since which, we do not read, that the people of God have had any Prophet that hath written any thing: nor other books, of a certain and authentic author. Wherefore by. good right, this here is accounted for Apocrypha. And although there were no other reason, for to diminish his authority, but the excuse which the author of the said book made in the end of his work, that aught to suffice thee. Read the last Chapter and thou shalt see it by experience. If he had béne certain thorough the spirit of GOD, that all that which he hath written, proceeded from him, as the Prophets and Apostles have done, wherefore should he excuse himself both of the stile, of The authority of the Prophets and Apostles the manner of writing and of the faults that he might have committed? If he had been always inspired with the same spirit, by which the Prophets and Apostles have spoken, he would have spoken surely and in the authority of God, as those who without excusing themselves have said: The Lord hath spoken it. And Saint Paul with what authority speaketh he affirming that the Gospel which he hath preached was so certain, that although Gal. 1, b. 8 an Angel came down from heaven, for to bring any other unto you, he aught not to be received, but accursed. Learn then Eusebius to discern the books of the holy Scripture, form the others: and think not that the church hath held for Canonical, that second book of the Maccabees, but as a book which was not altogether to be rejected, and of which it might serve the Church, for declaration of the Scriptures, because of the histories contained in the same, which do give a certain opening, for the intelligence of the antiquity, as the histories of joseph do. Yet nevertheless if one mark them well, it shall be easle to judge, that the first and the second are not all of one author: not only by the diversity of the stile, 〈◊〉 also because that in the second, are reiterated some bistories, and many things which already have been intreales ●● in the first, and a great deal better than they are in this. If one do find in any other book worthy to be credited of the old or new Testament, any like place unto that which thou hast alleged, the argument should have some colour by the show that the other would give unto it. But forasmuch as it is alone, his witness is not sufficient, as it should be in the one of the others. For God is as much to be believed by one only witness as The wstnesse of God. by a thousand: where a thousand witnesses of men, without the same of God, aught not to bold any place in the religion, But sithence, that the superstition of the suffrages & prayers: for the dead hath begun to have crept into the Church, this book also hath begun to take great authority, in such sort that it oftener is read and song in the Popish Church, than those that cont●yned more surer doctrine. And thou oughtest also to understand, that the ancients have sometime put a difference between the Canonical, Apocrypha & Ecclesiastical books, as it appeareth by the author which hath expounded, the Creed the which some do think that it was Saint Cyprian: other that it was Ruffin. But whosoever if were of them both, they are both of them very ancient, and have divided those books after that sort: ye must know (says he) that thee be other books after the Canonical, which are not called of the ancients & of our predecessors Canonical, but C●●lessasticall: as are the wisdom of Solomon, and the other wisdom, which is called jesus the son of sirach, the which book is among the Latins, by that general title called Ecclessasticus, by the which word the author of the book is not named but the quantity of the Scripture. The book of Toby is of the same order, and of judith, and the books of the Maccabees: the which they would that they should be all read in the Church, but they would not that they should have been settle forth, for to conform the authority of the faith by them. The other Scriptures, they have called Apocrypha: the which they would not that they should be read in the Church. Thou 〈◊〉 see here most plainly, how that they do attribute more authority unto the Canonical Scriptures then unto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures: and unto the Ecclessastical more than unto the Apocryphas: but they have not yet nevertheless esteemed those Eccleslassastical (which they have many times called apocrypha) of equal and such authority, as the divine scriptures: nor they have called them Eccleslasticall for that cause, but because that they were in such reputation, that one niyght read and sign them in the Church (the w●●●● was not permitted in the ancient Church) or because that their antiquity or holiness of their authors added unto them a little more authority then unto the other. Thomas. By that account Eusebius then shall be unweapened of his principal staff that he thought to have. Eusebius. If they would after that sort make the books either Canonical or apocrypha at their pleasures: it is mere folly to disputs with them. For all those which be not to their minds shall be Apocrypha. Theophilus. If thou will't not be confen●ed with the reasons by me alleged, go and pled against Saint Jerome Ad Chroma. dist 5. ca sancta. and your decrees. If the ancients had not used judgement and wisdom, how many books would the heretics have brought into the Church under the name of the Prophets, Apostles and of their Disciples: The which they have re●●csed them, following that same rule, which I have given unto thee: as it appeareth by your decrees, which are a great roll of them. But I will yet do more, to the end I leave the● not an occasion, to be miscontented with me. I am content, by way of disputation, to put the case that the book should be autentick & of a divine authority. And although The place of the Maccabees serveth nothing at all for Purgatory. it were so, it would serve thee yet nevertheless nothing at all for to prove that there is a Purgatory, & that we must offer for the dead, to such intent, and in such sort, as you do make it, And for to declare this unto thee more plainly, I demand of thee, for to begin first ou● matter, in what time was that made, which the history containeth? was it before the coming of our Lord jesus Christ, or afterwards? Eusebius. Before. Theophilus. Tell me moreover, was Purgatory before the coming of Christ. the purgatory in that time, such as thou believest it is now? Eusebius. There is no doubt of it. Theophilus. Sigh that it is so, tell me, what souls went thither? For either it must be altogether empty and void, or else it must be that some went thither, either those of the elect & faithful, or those of the Infidels and reprobate. Now I do not think, that thou will't say, that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate. Eusebius. One may so judge by that which is written Luc. 16. c. 19 of the wicked rich man. Theophilus. Sigh then that hell was for the reprobate, it followeth then necessarily, that the souls of the elect should go into purgatory. If it he so, to what end serveth the Limb? For you The Limb. do say, that all the patriarchs, Prophets and true faithful, which are departed out of this world before the death and passion of jesus Christ, were there kept and detained, and they could not go into Paradise, until such time as jesus Christ had satysfied for them. Wherefore I do conclude, according to your doctrine, either that the Limb and purgatory were all one place and lodging, or else that the one of them two was void and supers●uous: or that there was but one, or for to speak the truth, neither the one nor the other. For if the Limb were for to receive the faithful that died in the faith of the promise made unto Abraham, what need was there any more of purgatory? bad they not purgatory sufficient enough in the Limbs? Were they not sufficiently tormented to be excluded from Paradise, and deprived from the joys thereof, and from the fruytion of the glory of GOD, as you do affirm? For what more greater torment can a faithful man have then to be deprived from such a good thing? That is not only a purgatory, but a very hell. Eusebius. I do know, that in hearing thee speak, that thou, which wouldst teach others, art yet in greater ignorance, and that thou understandest very evil this matter. The Limb then, was for those which were in such estate, as those are now, which have finished their penance, and have made entire and whole satisfaction for their sins in this world, which do go straight way into paradise, saving that those there cannot yet enter, because that the door was shut, until that jesus Christ came to open it, and to break the gates of Hell. Theophilus. Wherefore was the purgatory? Had it in it yet a certain other sort of souls and of an other condition, than those which went into the Limbs? Eusebius. Yea. For thou mayst well understand, that all the faithful, which have proceeded and been before The reason upon which Purgatory is builded. the coming of our Lord jesus Christ, have not all of them been so holy and so perfect, as the patriarchs and Prophets. Wherefore it were no reason, that incontinently after they are dead they should receive as much felicity as they, without they do first accomplish and end their penance in purgatory, and satisfy for their sins: the which they have not done in this world, as the holy patriarchs and Prophets have done: or otherwise GOD should not be just. For what reason is it, that he which hath lived in all viees and sins all the time of this life until the last time of his death, in which gée hath had repentance of his sins, and hath asked mercy of God, should have no more grievous punishment, but should receive as great reward, as he which all his life time hath served God faithfully and hath always lived in holiness, righteousness and innocency. Theophilus. Take heed thou do not blaspheme God, and do imurye unto his grace and mercy. For I do greatly fear but that thou will't be like unto the brother of the prodigal child, who was envious against his Hypocrites envious of the grace of God Luc. 15. g. 28. Examples of the mercy of God. brother, and murmured against his father, being angry at the gentle receiving and of the grace and favour that he did unto his son, whom he had recoured, being reduced and brought into the right way: or lest that thou be one of the companions of them which were hired to work in the vineyard, which did murmur against the good man of the house, because that he did give as much wages unto those whom he called at the eleventh hour, & a little before night, for to work in his vineyard, as unto those whom he appointed from the morning which have born the burden and heat of the day. Wherefore dost thou not accuse our Lord jesus Christ, who hath answered unto that poor thief who did hang upon the Cross ●●yth him: This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise? What good deeds Lu●. 23. l. 4●. had he done before? Art thou envious of the grace which God doth unto the poor sinners? Eusebius. God forbidden. But we must understand, that as God is merciful, so is he righteous. And if the thief which was crucified with jesus Christ had had that privilege, it followeth not therefore, that all have Privilege the like, or that they aught to have it. For as the law makers do say: the privileges of a few, are not common laws to all men. Theophilus. If that thief hath received so great goodness by one singular privilege, I do answer unto thee further, that none is saved but by privilege. For all we have meryted eternal damnation, of our Salvation by privilege Rom. 3. 9 nature. Inasmuch then as we be saved, that is, thorough a singular privilege, which is given of God unto the elect by jesus Christ, which is not common unto the reprobate. Eusebius. There is yet an other reason, wherefore that thief went strait into Paradise, without passing by the fire and the pains of purgatory: that is, because that he had already done his penance in pain for satisfaction. this world, and hath satisfied for his sins. Theophilus. What penance or satisfaction could he have made? For the thefts and murders for which he was hanged on the Gybet. Eusebius. But it was the pain that he endured and suffered, and the death that he hath received for his demerits. Theophilus. As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hand: but yet nevertheless his torments have served him nothing at all, and he did not hear such promise of jesus Christ as the other. Eusebius. Because that he did not take his death and torment quietly and patiently, and hath not believed in jesus Christ and demanded pardon of his sins as his companion did. Theophilus. Thou always comest unto my count, and thou shalt he compelled to confess that there is nothing which was the cause of his salvation but the faith which he had in jesus Christ, and the mercy of God, The only death of jesus Christ doth satisfy. which he hath obtained by the same, without that that God had regard neither to his dignity or worthiness, nor unto his works, but unto jesus Christ his son, for whose love he hath pardoned him, not for the forment and death, which the thief hath suffered, and the satisfaction that he could do unto him, but for the forment, death and passion which jesus Christ hath suffered & the satisfaction that he hath made for him, the which Saint Cyprian hath Cypr. lib. 4. de bapismo l●. sent 4. dist. 4. sunt. well understanded, of whom the witness is alleged by the master of the sentences. For although all the deaths and torments that all men have ever suffered, patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, Martyrs and confessors should be put together, they should not be sufficient, for to put out the lest sin in the world. For God doth not take only for satisfaction, the torment, but regardeth the worthiness of the person, of which he receiveth the ransom, the which was not found sufficient, but in jesus Christ. Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer, were approved and allowed of God for satisfaction, and cause to avoid the pains of Purgatory, there should be no men more happier and blessed then the thieves, murderers, brigands and other malefactors, which are executed by justice. And there would be, none which would not but become a thief or murderer, or to commit some fault worthy of death for to be executed thorough justice, to avoid the pains of Purgatory. For if the doctrine of your divines be true, the fire of Purgatory surmounteth all the pain, that a The greatness of the pains of Purgatory. man can suffer in this life, and it is so hot and burning, that the visible and material fire of this world, is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same. hilarius. I cannot understand in what place of the holy Dist. 25. ca Apostolus. Tho. 4. dist. 21. a●. 1. Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. A●ber. 7. li. come theo. ca 2. Bona. 4. dist. 18 Plutar. l●. de sera. numi. vind. scripture they have seen that, I would rather believe that they have learned it of Plutarch, who hath witten, that the dolours and pains of Purgatory are so great and so cruel, that there is asmuch difference between them, and those that we do suffer in our body, and in the flesh, as there is difference, between that which happeneth unto us in dreaming, and that which happeneth unto us waking: In somuch that all that which we do suffer in this world, is but as a dream in the respect of the same. Fable of Gregory. Bart. fer. 4. heb. 4. quadrag. sir, de poen. purge. Wherefore if the fable that the Theologians have rehearsed of Saint Gregory be true, I shall not be abashed, that he had rather choose (when the Angel did give unto him the choice of two things) to be in pain and sickness all his life then two days in Purgatory, because that he prayed for Traianus, and delivered him from hell. For although that he complained in his Epistles, that he is so much gréevid with diseases, and so great dolours, that his life is unto him nothing but pain, yet nevertheless it is very casle in comparison to be a quarter of an hour in Purgatory. Thomas. To what purpose hath the Angel given unto him to choose one of those two pains? By doing good, aught evil to happen unto him? Hath he fetched out Traianus, from hell against Gods will? If our Priests had such a payment, for to draw souls out of purgatory; I belave that they would not be very much hot after their masses. hilarius. It were necessary that sithence they have begun the fable, to end it, for to make it accord and Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus Verg. Aene. 6. agree with that of Theseus and Pyrothus, who as the poets do witness are punished in the hells because that they would take away Proserpina maugre the God Pluto. Theophilus. Difference beweene the fire of purgatory & of hell. Ric. 4. dist. 20. arg. 2. Bonau●n. 4. dist. 18. Albet. 7. li. come pe. that. ca 2. Thom. 4. dist. 21. arg. 1. & 3 oer. q. 46. ar. 6. That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I have said. They do kindle that fire more. For they do affirm, that the same of Purgatory, and that of hell is all one, and that there is none other difference, but that the same of hell is eternal touching his office, but the same of Purgatory, is not but as touching his substance, because that the souls go out some time. Wherefore they do conclude that not only the pain of purgatory is the most grievous that ever was, but which is more. Thomas of Aquin hath written that that pain exceedeth and surmounteth the dolours & torments which jesus Christ hath suffered in his death and passion. What blasphemy can be more greater? For what hell can be more trowel than that which jesus Christ hath suffered for us, when he take upon him the curse due for our sins, for to deliver us? Thomas. Do they not allege some place of the holy Scripture, for to prove that? hilarius. Barl. serm de p●na Purg. example Anto. ● par. sum. Where shall they find it? their probatien is an example which they do commonly put forth and propound taken out of the chronicles of the jacobins, of a Friar of that order who appeared unto a very friend of his, by whom being asked of the pains of purgatory, answered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burn, yet it could not be compared, to the pain and beat of purgatory: boast thou not think that the probation is worthy of such Theologians. Eusebius. Although that there were no Scripture, & that we had but our natural sense the which God hath given Man's reason the foundation of Purgatory. unto us, yet we might well judge that it is convenient and necessary that there be a purgatory, in which the sinful men may he punished, for those sins of which they have not ended their penance. For it is not written with out cause: Nullum malum impunitum: Nullum bonum irrenumeratum. That is, there is none evil which shall not be unpanished, nor no goodness which shall not be unrewarded. Theophilus. Although that those words are not reryted in the scripture, after that manner as thou dost receit them, yet nevertheless. I am content to allow it to be true. I do not deny, but that God is as just as he is merciful. The justice and mercy of God. For otherwise he could not be God. But we aught to consider, by what means he doth exercise his justice & mercy towards us. There is no doubt, but the our sins do deserve Esa. 9 b. 6 john. 3. d. 34. Rom. 3. 24. Gala. 3. d. 2●. great punishment. And therefore hath he given unto us jesus Christ his son, & hath delivered him to death for us, that our misdeeds should be punished in him, & that he do satisfy for us to his sovereign justice, for to obtain of him grace & mercy in his name. Thou seest them that there is none Punishment for sins. evil which is not unpunished, for to satisfy the righteousness & justice of god: but there is difference in the manner of punishing For●● he that hath b●ne the evil believeth in jesus Christ, and hath full hope and trust that thorough his death & passion he hath obtained of God pardon and remission of his sins, thorough that says, he is the true member of jesus Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12 john. 15. Gala. 3. ●● Christ, and adopted for the son of God. If he be a true member of jesus Christ, and a true child of God, he & his sins are punished in jesus Christ, who for that cense, hath born the judgement and tursse of God, for all the elect. But if the sinner be an Infidel, and which hath no part with jesus Christ, the wrath of God falls john. 3. d. 36 upon him and he cannot escape the judgement of God, but that his sin be punished in himself, in hell fire. And even as our evil deeds are punished in jesus Christ, so are our good deeds rewarded in him, and by him allowed The reward of good deeds. of the celestial Father, which crowneth his good works in us. For nothing pleaseth him but jesus Christ his well-beloved son, in whom he delighteth, and no works Mat. 3. ●●● can be found agreeable, but his. For there is no goodness but in him. Wherefore if we will have any good thing in us, we must seek ● borrow it of him. And if we will that our works be pleasing unto God, it is necessary that jesus Christ do them in us thorough his holy spirit: or otherwise, the heavenly father cannot allow nor receive them for good, nor yet give unto them reward. Eusebius. I do greatly doubt, that in magnifying so much the grace and mercy of God, and the efficacy of the death and passion of jesus Christ, you give occasion unto many to do evil, without ever caring to do any good works: For if that men have once this opinion, that they are saved thorough the only grace and mercy of God, and that they cannot merit paradise by their good works, what need they care to do any good deeds if it doth not serve them no more than the evil? Theophilus. I do fear moreover, that the doctrine which thou holdest, doth induce and lead them unto that which Purgatory the nurse of sin. thou sayest For how many hath there been, who having that opinion to satisfy in purgatory for their sins, have given themselves unto all vices, during their life, hoping that they will provide so well to their affairs, that for gold and silver, they shallbe incontinently delivered from the pains of Purgatory after they be dead? And so by that means they did think, that it was not needful to study to do good works. For they did hope to find in their purse all that that should be needful for their salvation. But for asmuch as it is a question touching Good works. good works, whom dost thou think can do them best, either the servant which laboureth thorough fear and compulsion, who would do no labour if he feared not to be beaten of his master, or if he hoped not but to receive a good reward: or the son, who thorough an entire love towards his father, and taketh pleasure in none other thing, but to serve and honour him well, because of the natural love that he beareth unto him, and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodness and benefits that he hath re●●ed and doth receive daily of him, without any servile fear, but only for the reverence and good affection that he hath towards him? Eusebius. There is no doubt, that those which serve only for fear to be punished, or for hope of reward, cannot serve faithfully nor lawfully: but are as the servants which serve to please the eye, and do good service whilst Collo. 3. d. 22. that the master is present: notwithstanding they have no good will towards him. Theophilus. Yet nevertheless those which do follow the Works, Hypocrites. doctrine, the which thou holdest, are altogether like unto those here. For either they do give themselves altogether to their pleasures and delights, hoping that they will satisfy by money for their sins, and redeem themselves? or if they study to doé well, they do it not but thorough fear, as a subject doth serve a Tyrant, fearing ●o fall into his hands: or as Merconaries & Hirelings, not for the love they have to god, but for the love they have to themselves. And so by that means, either they do make GOD The God of the Hypocrites like unto a cruel Tyrant, or to a polling judge & thief, who for money absolveth the evil doers, and as a companion of thieves, taketh his part of the hootie with them: or else they make themselves god, & do worship the works of their hands, sith that by them they do save themselves, and merit Paradise. Wherefore they have no need of jesus Christ. I demand of thee, which art but a sinful man, if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do unto thee service only for the fear that he hath of thee, lest thou shouldst do unto him hurt? or for hope that he should have to fear thee better, wout which he would make none account of thee, nor would not set by thee? Eusebius. I would hold him for a true friend of the kitchen, Friends of the kitchen. which loveth more his belly than me, of whom he is a friend, & not of me. Theophilus. And yet nevertheless, if thou dost well consider the nature of the hypocrites, & Pharisees, who do attribute somuch unto their works, thou shouldst find them of such an amity towards God, for whose love they do not that they do, but for the love of themselves: and do not serve god, but after the manner as the beasts do serve men, or for the fear that they have to be beaten, or for the nourishment and food that they do receive. But without staying ourselves any longer upon that point, let us return unto our talk of the Limb: sith that thou puttest the Limb for the one, and Purgatory for the other, what difference dost thou put between those which were in the Limb, and those which were in Purgatory, sith that the one and the other, according to your doctrine, were deprived of the fruition of God? I do greatly fear, that in the end thy Limb and Purgatory will become hell For if the holy fathers, aswell patriarchs as Prophets, were deprived from such a goodness, wherein did they differ from the dampened & And in like Difference between the L●● he. Purgatory and hell. manner those whom thou ledgest in purgatory, what need have they of any more greater torment, or of any other fire, for to torment them? And what solace can they have more then the damned, if they were deprived from the love's of Paradise. and yet besides that, to be detained in the fire? hilarius. But at that time, for that there was no Mass nor papistical Priests, for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continued a long time in those pains & torments. And which is more, sith that in that time, none could enter in Paradise, when they had accomplished the time of their pains in purgatory, whether went they, when they departed from thence? They could not but depart from one hell, for to go into an other, that is to say, from purgatory to the Limb: where they were compelled to abide always locked fast, in the prisons of Purgatory, until the coming of jesus Christ. Theophilus. For to speak the truth, I find no great difference, between hell and those other two lodgings. Eusebius. But there is great difference. For these here do hope to come once unto the eternal felicity, from the which the dampened are altogether deprived. Theophilus. There is then none other difference, but that the one are defeined and kept in hell, and dampened for ever: the others are not but for a time. And so your Limb, and Purgatory shall be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes, who were The hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists in this foolish and false opinion, that there is neither man nor devil dampened perpetually, but that all those which are detained in hell, after a long space of time, shallbe delivered, & finally all saved. Thomas. Now bore they say y●, sith that the holy scripture witnesseth so evidently, that the Esa. ●●. g. 24 Mat. 25. d. 46 Mar● 9 8. 48. Apo. 14. c. ●l. pains of hell are eternal & that our lord jesus Christ called the hell fire, eternal & inextinguible? Theophilus. What other reasons have the heretics, for to fight against the verity them their human opinions? or some place of the holy scripture, depraved & corrupted by their false understanding? They have no building or foundation but that it is easy to overthrow. But we have not now to dispute against those old Origenistes, which are raised up again of the Catabaptistes, the which are already vanquished enough, but we have to work against the papists, whom by good right we may compare unto those, & call them new Origenistes aswell as the Catabaptists There is no difference, but that the Catabaptistes are not so much covered and disguised, and that they do raise up again too openly the old errors and heresies, the which are taken all ready for condemned. But the Papists have found an other mask, and an other manner to proceed, by which Satan in them, hath found the means to redress and amend that bell of the Origenistes, in dysguising only a little the building after an other sort. For when all shallbe well considered, I know not wherein those whom you lodge in the Limb and Purgatory do differ, from those whom the Origenistes and Catabaptistes did hold and account for dampened: except you will say, that the pain and hell of the one, continueth more than of the other. Eusebius. There is a great deal more. For notwithstanding that all were tormented, yet nevertheless those which were in the Limb, were a great deal less, than those which were detained in Purgatory. For there is no fire in the Limb, and they have none other pain, saving that they cannot yet see the face of God and have the full joy & The pain of the Limb fruition of Paradise, the which they do farye for, much desiring it: which was unto them a great torment, as unto every one which tarrieth for the goodness that he desireth, and cannot have it so soon as he would. In like manner those which were in purgatory, and are yet at this The pain of Purgatory present, do not suffer so grievous torments without comparison, as the dampened that are detained in hell fire: But they have yet nevertheless more fire than those which were in the Limb. Theophilus. Thou shalt be yet compelled to come unto my sayings. For what other thing may I conclude, by thy words, but that there is three hells, between which three is no difference, but that the one os more cruel than Three hells. the other, as the torments & prisons of the Tyrants are. For Theologians do affirm that there is two sorts of Poena damni. & poena sensus Leo de viim. sir uim sest. mort. pains in Purgatory, to wit, the pain of Dam, and the pain of the sense. By the pain of Dam, they understand the damage and hurt that the souls do receive for the long tarrying and let that they have, to see the face of God, and to be in possession of the joys of Paradise. By the pain of the sense, they understand the torments which the souls do feel of the fire by the which they are punished. Now judge, what difference can be. First, what more greater pain can the dampened have then this here? Sigh that your Doctors do affirm that the fire of Io. Maio. 4. sent dist. 44. q. 1. hell, and of Purgatory, is all one, as to his substance, and that after the day of the last judgement, purgatory shall be mingled with Hell, and they shallbe but one self thing? Thou canst not here find any other difference, saving that purgatory is not a perpetual hell, neither an eternal hell fire, but that it hath a certain end: and that the Limb is a half Hell. For there is but the pain of Dam, sith that there is no fire. The which yet nevertheless your Doctor's ds affirm to be so great that it surmounteth all the pains of the world. And for to prove it, they allege Saint Augustine, saying. To be an stranger from the kingdom of God, deprived from the sweetness of God, is a pain so great, that there are no torments that may be compared unto them. And Chrisostome says: Many are afraid of the Bell fire, but I esteem a pain a great deal greater than the hell fire, that fall from that glory. Thou dost then see, whether I do wrong to call the Limb, Hell. But there is yet a difference between Barl. serm. de poen. infer. the pains of the ancient fathers, which were detained and kept in the Limb, and the children that are born dead. For that half hell, after your doctrine, is unto them eternal: the which it was not unto the ancient fathers. But the better to declare and show forth that matter. I Abraham's bosme. Luc. 16. c. 12 demand of thee what thou thinkest the bosom of Abraham to be, in which Lazarus rested? I do not now dispute, whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man & of Lazarus, is alleged as a true history, or as a parable. For whatsoever it be, jesus Christ by the same, declareth & showeth unto us the estate and condition of the elect & reprobate, after this mortal life, & declareth father unto us that which we aught to hold & believe. He maketh Two ways only mention but of two places only, that is to say, of hell fire, in which the rich man was tormented, & of Abraham's bosom, in which Lazarus was received. He putteth not forth a third place: In like manner when he did sand forth his Apostles to preach, he plainly declared the theridamas was but two ways, the broad way which leadeth to destruction, and she narrow way which leadeth unto life, saying: He that believeth Mat. 7. b. 13. Luc. 13. c. 24 Marc. 16. c. 16. and is baptized, shall be saved: But he that believeth not, shallbe dampened, Wherefore I would gladly know of thee, what thou understandest by Abraham's bosom: And whether thou dost take it for Purgatory or for the Limb. For thou canst not understand it of hell, nor of any place that is nigh unto it: sith that Abraham answered the rich man, that there is a great space set between those that are in Abraham's bosom, and those which are in hell Luc. 16. f. 26. with the rich man, that it is impossible the one can neither go nor come from the one of the places to the other. Eusebius. By Abraham's bosom I understand the place, in which were received the patriarchs, Prophets & other holy men which died in the faith of Abraham, the father of the believers, Gene. 1. 13. 16 Gene. 15. b. 6 Rom. 4. a. ● Gal. 3. 2. 6 & in the hope of salvation & benediction the they aught to receive by jesus Christ our Lord, the true seed of the blessing promised unto Abraham. Theophilus. Then thou dost then take it for the Limb. For Limbus in the Latin Limbus. Signification of the Limb tongue, signifieth the hem or guard of a gown or of any other garment. hilarius. Yea, in deed, whosoever will believe the witness of all good Latin authors, as Virgile and other Aene. 2. 4. like, which often times do use it, and not in any other signification. But peradventure the papistical Theologians would here use their accustomed licence, which is to pervert The licence of the Theologians & mar all tongues and languages: giving unto them an other sense a signification, & to make a new one, as the jargon of the beggars & Ostirians which none understandeth peddlers French but themselves. Theophilus. It must needs be so: or else that they do take the word of Limb by a Metaphor, comparison and stmilitude, for extermitie: as far as I can judge, as well I by thy words, before alleged and allowed, as by those of you Theologians. For in disputing of those internal habitations, they confess by their books, that it is uncertain, which is nearest unto hell, either the Limb or Purgatory. As touching the Limb of the fathers, they affirm assuredly, that in the time when it was, it was situated in a place more higher. And as touching that of the children, they say, that after the latter judgement, it shall be in the earth a little above the same: and hell shallbe in the bottom: and Purgatory shall be then all one with hell. hilarius. I would gladly knows what meatinges and measuring they use in those low territories, & whether they do measure the lands & countries, by cubits, else, roads, miles and other like measures, such as the Geometrians and Astronomers have. At the leastwise they are more skilful in such Art then ever they were. For they do measure the regions and countries, which yet are not. But for a full resolution, we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and description, but that purgatory and the Limb are the confins, or the suburbs either of hell, or of Paradise. Theophilus. If the Limb of the fathers were The suburbs of hell and of Paradise. one of the suburbs of hell, it must be that the city should be a great way off from the suburbs. For Abraham clearly witnesseth that there is such a distance, from his bosom, the which thou taketh for the Limb, unto hell in which the rich man was, that it is impossible to pass from the one to the other, because of the horrible gulf and depth which is between them both. hilarius. Peradventure we may deceive ourselves. For how dost thou know, whether they do pronounce Limb, for Lembe. For Lembe in Lembus lembe. Plaut. in Marca & Bacch. Liut. li. 8. bell. punt. & 1. ab ung. Gene ● d. 23. 1. Pet. 3. d c Greek and Latin signifieth a little ship and very swift: or a galley. Wherefore it may be, that they do mean, that the ancient fathers, were detained & kept in that Lembe as in a ship, as No was in his Ark, to the end they should not fall into that deep lake of Hell, and be drowned in the gulf of those deep rivers, of which we have spoken off so much. For all their ease goeth by poetical feignings. The Limb of the Infants But howsoever they will take it. I dare prove it by the old men of our country, that it is most likest to be true that the Limb, at the lest the same of the poung children, aught rather to be in the suburbs of Paradise, then of hell. For they do bold for certain, that the young children, which for wanting of exterior and outward baptism, are sent unto the Limb, hearing from thence where they are, the joys of Paradise, but they cannot see them: the which is unto them a marvelous torment. Nevertheless the good old men would not have spoken so assuredly, if they had not herded it so preached of the great Theologians and Doctors. Now sithence that from the Limb, the young children do hear the joys of Paradise, reason declareth unto us that the Limb aught not to be far off from paradise, but that it may have only some wall, or a certain veil between them both which may hinder and let their sight, either that they do make a great noise in paradise: or else that the ears of the souls are marvelously sharp and attentius. Eusebius. Sigh that the Doctors do say that it is situated & builded in a place more higher, I doubt not but that it approacheth nigh unto Paradise. hilarius. In steed then that Virgile placeth the Limb of the young children at the entering in to hell, thou will't make it at the entering in of Paradise. Aene. 6. Theophilus. Sigh that we do already esloyne and make ourselves so far from Hell, I do greatly fear, that in the end thy Limb and thy purgatory will not be sounds in Paradise. And therefore I demand of thee again, to knows whether that the bosom of Abraham be a place of voluptuousness and pleasure,. or of sorrowfulness & horror. And whether that the young children of the Hebrews A question of the infants of the Hebrewes dead without circumcision Gene. 17. b. 10. & jews, which died before the viii. day, which was deternined & appointed for to circumcise them, did go into the bosom of Abraham with the patriarchs? either into Purgatory: or into hell, or whether they had an other Limb a vary. Eusebius. Thou dost propound unto me many questions together, to the which I cannot answer according to the order which thou hast kept in propounding them. For I will begin with the latter, afterwards I will descend unto the others. As touching that which thou demandest of the salvation of the young Infants of the Hebrews, I do answer as the Master of the sententes, even so as of the children of the Christians, which died before baptism. Theophilus. Thou will't then say, that they do perish, The opinion of Lombard. ●● sent. 4. dist. 1. St vero. Dist. 4. ca necesserum. & ca filius. ●ka. de sacra. both the one and the other? For the master of the sentences useth this proper word, saying: that it is most true that they perish. If they do perish, they are then dampened: the which I am sure thou will't not confess. For you do put a difference between the dampened and them. Yet nevertheless you hold them not for the children of God. And therefore you deny unto them to be buried in the Churchyard. And therefore that opinion of the master of the sentences hath seemed to the other scholastical Doctors too rigorous, which do witness that they hold it not commonly unde versus ex chan. de sacram Nullus aborttn. us, null●● niss font renatus: Infra sancta de● debet sepel●r● ut an lex. in that place, but they take it for an error, the which they have adjoined with the others which they have heaped up together from their books. Eusebius. If he did understand and mean that they went into Hell, I will not follow his sentencs. But I believe that he means that they go no other where but to the Limb. Theophilus. But was that Limb whether they went, the very same, in which the patriarchs were shut in, or whether they had a chamber separated from their lodging? Eusebius. I believe that the young children have their Limb separated from the others: or otherwise they should have had no more pain than the others which have been circumcised: sith that they cannot yet enter into Paradise, but are all stayed in the Limb. Thomas. I think, that you do not keep the promise which you have made neither on the one side nor on the other, & that you abide not within the circuit & field, the which you have determined for your jousts. For you are bound to flight by the only authority of the word of God. And yet nevertheless, it is already a good while, that I have herded any thing of you but the opinions of the Doctors. Wherefore I would gladly (Eusebius) that you would follow that matter, and I desire that thou wouldst prove by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the young children dead without circumcision & baptism. Eusebius. Dost thou think that I speak without the Scripture? the which I will not yet allege with my gloss and expositions: But for to give more weight and credit unto my probations, I would thou shouldst bear the witness of them by the mouth of the ancient Doctors, namely, of the worshipful Beda, speaking after this manner. He which now crieth Beda. Sant. 4. dist. 1. S● vero. john. ●. a. ●. terribly & healthfully by his gospel: except a man be born of water & the holy spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The very same he cried by his law: the soul of him whose foreskin of his flesh is not circumcifed, Gene. 17. c. 14 shall perish from his people: because he hath broken my testament. Behold a clear probation, as well for the children of the jews, as for those of the Christians. Theophilus. How understandest thou that threatening against those which were not circumcised? For God hath prefired eight days, for to circumcise the young children. Now if they do dye before the eight day, and the term prescribed of God, dost thou think that the salvation of those children be in danger? Eusebius. The word of God excepteth neither little nor great, but speaketh generally to all men. Theophilus. But there could have been no fault, but in the transgression of the commandment of God. Sigh then that God had determined for them the viij. day, wherefore aught the young children to perish, which died before that term? For sith that God had lymitted the day. I doubt not but that those who should have circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary unto the commandment of God. Eusebius. I accord unto thee therein, in those which should have done that without necessity, and Sent. 4. dist. 1. S● vero. without the danger of the death of the young child. But I believe, that when there should have been any danger they might circumeise them before that term. Theophilus. And I believe the contrary. For I can prove my reason by the Scripture, the which thou canst not do thy. If it were so then as y● sayest, it should follow that god was not well advised, when he made that ordinance, and that the Isralites should be wiser by right: and that he should do great wrong unto them, sith that he hath not advertised them of that doing, and that he gave none exception. It followeth in like manner. if the circumcision had been so necessary unto salvation, that all the women children and women should perish, sith that they died all without circumcision: the which yet nevertheless no man dareth to affirm, sith that there hath been so many holy women, of whom the holy Scripture beareth us witness. Eusebius. It is easy to reprove thy consequence. For in the institution of the circumcision, it is spoken expressly of the males, not of the females. Theophilus. The law yet nevertheless saith, every soul, every person. Wherefore if we must take the words by rigour, without a fit interpretation, we must comprehend the females, if there had been none other places, which do give unto us the intelligence & understanding of the law: besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare, that it extendeth not unto the women. Then if the women be exempt, because that the law bindeth them not, so are the Infants which die before the eight day. For they are not bond by the law before the term: or otherwise, God would not have held his peace, sooner than of their things which were not of so great importance. But when the eight day was come, I doubt not, that if thorough contempning, negligence and despising, the circumcision had been omitted, but that the Lord Rebellion and despising the commandment of God. would have been greatly offended: not by reason of the sign, but thorough the rebellion and despising of his word, the which he taketh in great displeasure: as he hath showed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabbath day. It seemed that the fault was not great, 〈◊〉. 15. d. ●● nor such as though he had committed a murder. And yet nevertheless god punished him with a cruel death, as though he had committed the greatest crime in the world. It is then an other thing to have omitted any ceremony commanded of God, thorough negligence, despising & rebellion, or to have left it undone, thorough necessity, or because that it was not possible. For when there is let, such that man cannot avoid Necessity it, and that this mind and will was good, and hath travailed as much as he can for to execute it. I do not beléene that god imputeth the fault unto him unto whom he was not bound. For the salvation of men consists in the alliance which the Lord hath made with us, by the which doth the small and great are received and joined together in the company and fellowship of the people of God. We do not deny, but that that alliance is signed and sealed by the sacraments, and that the baptism is but the sign and seals among the Christians, as the circumcision was among the jews. But it followeth not therefore that it is firm and certain enough without that sign and seal. Wherefore there is no doubt, but that those which do shut up the kingdom of heaven unto the infants for want and lack of the sign, do unto them great wrong, and do béely the promises of God, which by them have pronounced them to be his, before that they were born, saying: that he is our God and the God of our children. And therefore those which do make that outward baptism Gene●. 17. 2. ● so necessary unto salvation, what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchantments, attributing unto the material & corruptible elements that which appertaineth unto the only virtue of God, & whereto serveth it? Wherefore we may well know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors, which have judged that baptism Iul●. 4. sent. necessary unto salvation. For which cause they have also permitted and established, that the women might and aught to baptize in time of necessity. But the ancient patriarchs an holy Prophets were not in that superstition: and were not ignorant of the virtue and efficacy of gods promise' and alliance, nor of the reasons by me alleged: or otherwise the Israelites should have greatly failed, and chiefly Moses, which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God, to Circumcision deferred have dwelled at the lest, the space of forty years, sithence the departing from Egypt, until the entering into the land of Chanaan, without circumcising the children. Yet it is to be believed, that during that time, many died, without being circumcised: and although none had died, did it not seem rightly, that Moses, and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god: sith that they executed it not at the day appointed? Thomas. Is it true that they have abode so long time without circumcising the children? Theophilus. If they had been circumcised, it should not have been written, that josua caused them to be circamcised, after that they were entered into the land of Chanaan. josua. 5. 2. 2 But by that example those holy men do show unto us, how we aught to understand the matter of the exterior sacraments. For notwithstanding that it is written of the Genes. 17. 2. 7 Rom. 4. b. 11. circumcision: This is mine alliance with your generations by an everlasting ordinance: and that the bay of the giving and receiving hath been limited, yet nevertheless they have well understanded, that that sacrament was a public ceremony, for to witness the alliance of God betwóene that people, and in the jewish Church, as the Exo. 13. b. 12 Pascal Lamb and their other sacraments. Wherefore when they had just and lawful let, and that they had not the time, and place, and other things requisite to their ceremonies, they have made it no great conscience to omit them, & did not think that thereby their salvation should be in danger, for that they did know that it came not thorough their negligence and despising of God. As they had S●auation with out exterior sacraments then the females saved thorough faith, and the spiritual and interior circumcision, without carnal and exterior circumcision, even so did they the males, knowing that they were comprised in the alliance of God, by the which, of his pure grace & mercy, he granteth salvation unto his elect: the which he giveth through his holy spirit, as it pleaseth him, aswell with out sacraments as with sacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius & those which were in his house, which have received the holy Ghost before they were baptized of S. Peter. Cornellus. Act. 10. f. 44. But yet they nevertheless did not despise the exterior ● outward baptism, although that they were already baptized by the holy Ghost For y● man should be very proud, which Honour unto the sacraments. Daniel. 9 a would despise the baptism ordained by jesus Christ, sith that he himself, which is the holy of the holiest, who alone can sanctify the sinners, & baptize with the holy Ghost & with fire, did not despise the same of S. john Baptist. But if the Mat. 3. c. 13 elect, aswell little as great, which have been among the Gentiles The gentiles saved without circumcision jon. 35. 3. & 4 4. Reg. 5. a. d 14 4. Reg. 24. a job. 43. & paynim, have been saved without exterior circumcision, as it appeareth in the Ninivites, Nahaman, job, Nabuchodonosor & other like, which have had knowledge of God, & have had their recourse unto his mercy, wherefore shall the same privilege be denied unto those that be hath, not only elected through his eternal election, belonging unto all his servants, but also he hath given unto them the witness by the exterior sacraments, if they had such lets & excuses, & as reasonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could have? For why were not the elect which were among the paynim accused, in being not circumcised, but because that they were not in the land of Israel, nor in the visible church, & among the people which he had choose, unto whom he commanded such things. If they had been among the Israelites, and that they might have communicated with them, it had been requisite to be circum●●sed, and to use the same sacraments. But when they were in a place, in which they had not that exterior mym●re, nor could not have it, the Lord was contented with the means that it pleased him to give unto the. Now if such necessity happened unto the Israelites, I doubt not, but that the obligation of the law hath ceased, when the causes, for which it was given are ceased: and the spiritual circumcision of the heart, suffiecth for itself & for the exterior, & the spiritual sacrifices, for the material. For when they were in the wilderness, & that they must be ready every day to remove their host & household stuff every hour, when God commanded them they did well judge, that God would not that they should be murderers of their young children, whom they could not circumcise, but that they would be very sick & in danger of drath, if they had not had time & place to look well unto them, as we may presume, by the Sichemytes, who were so sick after Sichemites Genes. 34. d. 26 their circumcision, that they could not defend themselves against the two sons of jacob. And therefore Moses hath well considered, that the circumcision was made for man & Mat. 12. a 1 Mar. 2. d. 27 Luc. G. a. 5 john. 7. c. 22 not man for the circumcision, as he writeth of the sabbath. And also that the people were not in place, where they might have their church garnished & beautified as it aught to be. Then if the Jews, which had such express commandment had very well such dispensation & exception, shall we put the Christians & their young children in worse condition than the Jews? I cannot marvel too much, of the question which the Theologians made, to wit, whether we aught to account The question of the Theologians Gers in Flo. de baptis ca de t●s na de con. dist. 4. ca ad. lunina 30. q. 1. & take an Infant to be baptized, which for want of water should be cast into a well, in pronouncing the sacramental words, which appertain to the substance & form of the sacrament? Upon which many Canonists & Theologians answered that he was: & said that the same hath been some times done. Although that there are other of diverse opinions, & which do not take such an Infant for to be baptized. Hillar. If I were the judge in the cause, I would condemn to death, as an homicide, him that should so cast away & kill the infant. Theophilus. We may well know by such questions & theological resolutions, of what spirit the doctrine which thou mainteinest Euseb. proceedeth, the which putteth such necessity in the exterior baptism, that those which do uphold and follow it, are constrained, even to murder the Infants: or at the lest, they are in doubt and perplexity, either to kill them or drown them after that sort, or to suffer them to die, doubting that they are lost and rejected of God. I am much abashed, how God is become more cruel in this time of grace and mercy, towards the children of the Christians, after the manifestation of jesus Christ his son, than he The condition of he children of the christians. hath been towards the children of the jews, before his coming. Eusebius. What is he, that says that God is more cruel towards the children of the Christian, then towards the children of the jews? Theophilus. Thou, and those which do follow the doctrine which thou upholdest & mayntainest. It is most true, that you do not speak it openly, but your doctrine importeth no less. For what rigour should God do, against the little Infants of the Christians, if for want of being w●tte with a little water, they were deprived eternally from the joys of Paradise? I have already sufficiently proved, that the children of the jews, were not bond unto such necessity: although that the commandment of the circumcision giveth an express term, the which is not in the baptism: wherein then aught the children of the Christians to be more culpable, than those of the jews? If it hath pleased god, to sand unto the mother, any adversity, or sickness, which was the cause that she hath brought forth her child before her full time, what fault can be in the child? and what consolation doth your doctrine bring unto the poor mother, being already sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God, to make her believe that her child is condemned unto perpetual exile, and banished from Paradise for ever? And that he is detained in the Limb, in the which without ceasing he curseth Father and mother? At the least wise the Carhards' have preached and persuaded them so. Thomas. Yea; I have herded them preach more over: that is to say, that it were better that a Town, a Ceuntry, or a kingdom were drowned, than an infant should dye without baptism. Theophilus. If the Infant did come unto the age of discretion, and that he despisoth the baptism, I would not excuse his infidelity and rebellion. Or if the father & mother, through their negligence, despising & infidelity, have made none account to baptize their child, I would not also excuse them, but that they should yield themselves greatly culpable before God, & worthy of grievous punishment. But I will not, yet nevertheless therefore, judge rashly of the salvation of the child. For GOD 2. Tim. 2. c. 19 knoweth those that are his. And man hath not power to danipue, him whom God would have saved. And if it hath not pleased God to show that grace and favour unto the Father and Mother, that they cannot see their child alive, for to offer and present him unto him and to his Church by the baptism, wherefore shall he use such furor towards that poor Infant and the Parents, which are already enough desolate and without comfort? What injury do you unto jesus Christ? These Infants born dead should not have great occasion to bless his coming, nor to sing with those which have received him, when he entered into Jerusalem: Blessed be the son Mat. 21. a 9 Mare 11. b. 10. Luc. 19 f 38. of David, which cometh in the name of the Lord They should have had more just occasion to curse and detest him, sith that in steed to amend their condition, he hath put them in worfe estate then the jews were before his coming: You cannot deny that absurdity and inconvenience, if you will maintain your doctrine truly, the which declareth itself altogether contrary, to the doctrine of the gospel, full of all consolation, in steed of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despair. hilarius. I can speak by experience. For I have known holy women, walking in true simplicity of heart and great fear of God, which were so troubled in their conscience, because that such inconveniences happened unto them, and that they were so persuaded, that with much a do, one could find any means to comfort them and set their conscience at rest and in quiet: what soever things 〈◊〉 say unto them. Although that one told and affirmed unto them, that our Lady of Lausanne showed grace unto the Infant, and that those which were present did witness unto them of the goodly miracle that she had done in rayamng to life the Infant for to baptize it being dead, afterwards did put him in the grave, yet nevertheless all that could not assure them: and they could not be at rest in their conscience, until such time as through the preaching of the Gospel, they were delivered from those false opinions of Caphards' and devilish doctrines. Theophilus. That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire, the consciences should be troubled & desolate: for then gain they most. They have of men that they desire: & their fishing is best in troubled water. Eusebius. Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should follow, that jesus Christ should have impaired the estate of the Christians. But wherein? For those of the jews shall no more enter into Paradise, than those here. Theophilus. If they went into Abraham's bosom, by the which thou understandest the Limb, there was no more greater punishment for them, then for the others which were circumcised: sith that all do go thither indifferently: as I have sufficiently showed unto thee. Afterwards those which then were in the Limb, hoped to be delivered, the which is denied unto the poor children of the Christians. Wherefore it should follow, that jesus Christ should rather come for to show and bring unto them the wrath and judgement of God, than his grace and mercy. Furthermore, those which were in Abraham's bosom, were not without having some taste Consolation and comfort in Abraham's bosom and participation of the joys of paradise: as it appeareth plainly, by the words of Abraham, answering unto the rich man after this manner: Thou hast had pleasure in this world. Wherefore thou must how suffer, Luc. 10. f. 25. and that the chance be turned. And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered great tribulations and iniseryes. Wherefore now it is meet that he be at rest and joy. Thou canst not deny but that these words are true. If they be true, thou art constrained to confess, that in Abrahames bosom is consolation, rest and joy. And how can these things be, out of the kingdom of GOD, Rom. 14. c. 17 which is righteousuesse, peace, and joy in the holy Ghost? Eusebius. I have not agreed to thee that the children of the jews, being dead without Circumsition, should go unto the Limb of the fathers, but into another. Theophilus. It behoveth then to forge Limbs. But where is the witness of the Scripture, for to prove the same? And do the children of the Christians go strait way unto the Limb of the ancient fathers? Eusebius: No. hilarius. Then there is presently a chamber to heir. Theophilus. Dost thou not know into what dreams and foolishness that doctrine doth lead you? Truly I am ashamed. Wherefore I pray thee, that thou do hold thyself content with that that I have answered unto thee: and that now thou do come unto the question which I have propounded unto thee, to wit, what difference thou puttest between the bosom of Abraham and Paradise? Eusebius. I do not mean to pass thy question without answering unto it. But thou lettest slip the principal objection which I have made unto thee, without having satisfied me therein. Wherefore I would have the resolution before thou dost escape me. How may we then understand that which jesus Christ hath said? Except that a man be born a new of water and of the john. 3. a. 5 Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Doth he not by those words openly declare, that the baptism of the water is necessary unto salvation? And Whether baptism with water be necessary to salvation that he which shall not be baptized with water, cannot enter into she kingdom of heaven. For he hath not only said: he that shallbe born a new of the Spirit, but he hath also added, the water, for to declare that the one and the other are requisite. I confess● that the water without the spirit sufficeth net: and that the vis●●l● 〈◊〉, without faith, cannot save. For it is first sayd●●●● th●● 〈◊〉 afterwards there is added, and is baptized shall be saved. But I cannot understand, Marc 16. c. 16. but that the baptism of the water is in like manner necessary unto salvation. Or I know not to what end jesus Christ pr●tended by those words, that he hath answered unto 〈◊〉. Theophilus. Before we do pass any farther, note d●●ygently, that notwithstanding that jesus Christ hath said: Marc. 16. c. c. 16. He that believeth and shallbe baptized shallbe saved. Yet nevertheless in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not reiterated the baptism. He hath not said: he that believeth not and shall not be baptized, shallbe condemned: But hath made only mention of the faith and of the believing, showing that without the same, none can be delivered from condemnation: the which he hath not affirmed of the baptism. And yet nevertheless he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptism: And not only of the same of the young children, but of the ●lde and great one's, unto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospel. Now judge, if jesus Christ hath not required the visible baptism of the great one's, as necessary unto salvation, how will he require it of the young children? I will give none occasion unto any man, by my words, to despise the Sacraments. For thou knowest already what sentence I have given against those that do despise it. But I do●●eane an● sa● that if any good man were, either among the Turks, or among the Idolaters and Infidels, which had knowledge of the gospel & true faith in jesus Christ, and that it was not possible for him to be baptized, I cannot believe, that he should be dampened for lack of a little water: sith that he hath the principal, to wit, the faith: or otherwise, the water should have more virtue & efficacy, than the blood of jesus Christ or at the lest as much. And the Priest which administereth the baptism, should have as much power as jesus Christ himself. For it should follow, that even as the water, or the Minister in like manner, can do nothing without the spirit & blood of jesus Christ, that jesus Christ's spirit also, nor his blood could do any thing without the water and the Minister. And so jesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subject unto the Minister and the water, as the water and the Minister unto them: And so consequently, his grace & mercy shall be bond unto the corruptible elements & subject Salvation and health bond unto the elements unto men. After that manner jesus Christ should be no more a true God, nor a true Saviour. And so it is easy to judge, that such doctrine proceedeth not of God, sith that it ●●pugneth evidently the grace of God: the justification of faith, and the annalogy of the sa●ie, and bo●●● overturn altogether the mystery of the redeption made by jesus Christ: The which thing, not only the ancient Doctors, but also Sent. 4. dist. 4. Sunt. the Scholasticals and Questionaries have well perceived, namely the master of the sentences, which proveth by good Salvation with ou● visible baptism De civit. Dei. li. 13. ca 7 De con. dist. 4 baptismi. De uni bap. ●●. 4 li. 4. de bap. glow. de cons. dist. 4. baptisms. & Cypris. Baptism of de●●otion unde versus ex Io. chan de sacra. Indan●●●rreus, contritus ad ●●. mina templi. Si tibi defuerint aqua, presbyter & moriatur. reasons, and by the witness of the ancient Doctors of the Church, that some are justified & saved without baptism, amongst whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead, and have suffered martyrdom for the con●●●●ion of jesus Christ. In like manner the authority of Cyprian is set forth by the master of the sentences, by the which he witnesseth, that the says, the repentance and conversion of the heart doth recompense and suffice for baptism unto those that have not the time, nor place for to receive it, & they do call it baptism of 〈◊〉. And for confirmation of this, he joineth to the example of the thée●e which was crucified next to jesus: the which says he was not crucified for the name of Christ, but for his demerits and wicked deeds: And he did not suffer because ●e beléued, but in suffering he believed. It is then declared in that thee●e how much saith availeths, without the Sacrament of visible baptism: The which the Apostle saith: The belief of the heart justifieth, and Firmiter in Cristum credens saluabitur ille. Rom. 10. b. 9 to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe. But then he doth accomplish it invisibly, when the necessity shutteth up and hideth the Sacrament of baptism, not the dispisinge of the religion. He may have some kind of baptism, where he shall not have coversion of the heart. And the conversion of the heart may be in some, without having received baptism: But it cannot be there where baptism is despised: and we must not in no wise call that conversion of the heart unto God, when the sacrament of De con. dist. 4. c. baptismi. Sent. 4. dist. 4. God is despised. Be hold the witness, the which upon that matter Gratian allegeth in his book of decretals, and the master of the sentences, taken of Cyprian, & addeth the same of Saint Ambrose, touching the Emperor Valenti●ian, who died without baptism, of whom he says: Valentinian. Ambro. de obit. Valent. I have lost him whom I aught to have regenerated. But yet nevertheless he hath not lost the grace, the which he required. Now if we aught to have such confidence and trust of the health and salvation of the great and old men which could not have the baptism, by a more stronger reason we aught to have it of the young Infants. For if they be of Gods elect, it is in his power to baptize them in their mother's belly by his holy spirit, & to sanctify them, as it is written of jacob, of ●eremy, Saint john Baptist, Gene. 25. c. 22 ●ere. 1. ●. 5 Lu●. 1. f. 64 Rom. 10 Gal. ●. c. 15 & of Saint Paul, Eusebius. How can we then absolve the proposition of jesus Christ? For it is general, and exclusive without excepting any person. Theophilus. As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his blood, speaking in this manner: verily, verily I say unto Io●●s. 6. f. 33 you, except you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. Doth not that proposition countervail as much, as if he had said: whosoever shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood, shall not have eternal life? none can deny the same. It followeth then, that all the young children are dampened and all those which do not communicate in the Sacrament of the supper: if the Popish doctrine be true, that jesus Christ is really in the host, and that we must there eat his flesh and drink his blood, after the manner as they have taught us. It shall not be then no less necessary to keep the consecrated hosts, and of the Gods in the box, for to communicate to the little children, & to give unto them the Sacrament of the eucharist, as the same of baptism. For the words of jesus Christ do urge no less in the one of the places then in the other. And if thou do think, that there is great difference; I will show unto thee easily, that many among the ancients, have perceived & judged it to be so as I say: or otherwise, in the time of Charlemagne they would not have kept the Eucharistia, for to give it unto the little children, when they were sick, if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary. Yet nevertheless it is written in the book of Ansegisus, Abbot of Liege, that the Ansegisus. same was done in that time there, and reciteth the canon which was made. But yet at this day that error continueth among the Bohemians and Moravians, the which Error of the Bohemians and Moravians yet nevertheless the Papists themselves do not allow: no more than that which S. Cyprian & Origene did, which did distribute the supper unto young children, when their fathers The supper give to infants by Cyprian & Origen and mothers brought them in their arms, in coming to communicate the same. And they gave unto them not only the bread, but also the cup. Now let us think if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there, what may chance afterwards. For Cyprian reigned about the year after the death and passion of jesus Christ two hundredth and fifty. Those worthy men would not have so much attributed unto the Sacraments, if they had not so much taken to the rigour and to the letter the words of jesus Christ. Of the like beginning came up the error of those which esteemed & thought the he, which after that he was baptized, & having once received the supper, could never be damned, or at the lest, should be once delivered from damnation, because that jesus Christ hath said: I am that living bread that came down from heaven: if john. 6. f. 5 anyman eat of this bread, he shall live for ever. They urge upon the letter, & said that jesus Christ could not lie, which hath promised the same. Yet nevertheless Saint Augustine rebuketh & confuteth their error. Behold Aug. li. 21. de cius. Dei Error about the Supper the absurdities into which men do fall for fault of well examining the Scriptures, & when they do take them according to the rigour of the letter. For whosoever will, according to the opinion which the Papists have of the Sacrament of the altar, take literally the which jesus Christ said of eating of his flesh & drinking his blood, there is no doubt, but that we shall be constrained to confess, that all those which have once taken the supper, are all saved: and that all those which shall not once receive it, are all damned. And so it shallbe no less requisite to give the supper unto the young children & to give power unto women to give it them, then the baptism: they that would take the words & those matters by the rigour. And therefore for to return to the place by thee alleged, by the absurdities which should follow of thy exposition, the which do repugn against the grace of jesus Christ, as I have declared unto thee, thou mayst well know, that we must not understand that place after that manner, as thou dost expound it. For jesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptism, nor of his institution: Regeneration Exposition of the place of saint john 3 But speaketh of the regeneration of man: and showeth what thing he must have for to be a Christian, to wit, that it is necessary, that he do renounce & forsake his first generation & nativity, which is altogether corrupted and cursed, and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God, and 1. Peter. 1. d. 23 2. Cor. d. 17 1. Cor. 15. f. 45 thorough the incorruptible seed of his word, insomuch that he is made a new creature, bearing the Image of jesus Christ, the true celestial Adam, even as he hath born that of the old and terrestrial Adam. And therefore john. 3. 2. 3 hath he said: Except a man be born from above or a new, be cannot see the kingdom of God. And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following, which signifieth none other thing, then that which he hath already said before. For to be born from above, or to be To be born of water born again, and to be born of water and the holy Ghost, are equivalent manners of speakings: And the two propositions of jesus Christ, are equipolent y● one to the other: & there is none other difference, saving that the last is more ample, and expoundeth the first. For sith that our first nativity is carnal, it must be that the second be spiritual. Sigh that 1. Cor. 15. f. 47 the first man is of the earth earthly, it is requisite, that the second, which is from heaven, be heavenly and spiritual. Now that regeneration & transformation cannot be made, but by the spirit of God. For as it is written in that same place: That which is born of the flesh, is flesh. That that john. 3. a. 6. is born of the spirit, is spirit. And therefore jesus Christ willing to expound unto Nicodemus the which he had said before: Except that a man be born from above or a new, he cannot see the kingdom of God: Afterwards says: which shall not be born of water and the holy Ghost: because that the holy Ghost, author of that regeneration, is given from above: which worketh a second nativity in us, which is celestial and spiritual. Eusebius. But what needed it to add the water? was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost. Theophilus. Wherefore hath john Baptist said, speaking To baptize with the holy Ghost and with fire. Mat. 3 c. 11. of the ministry of jesus Christ: That he would baptize with the holy Ghost and with fire: what needed it, sith that he named the holy Ghost, to add unto it the fire? Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptism of the fire, as some do say, that some Christians which are amongst the Indians, Aethiopians & Persians do, who for that Indians cause did use the fire for baptism of the fire? Eusebius. One may well perceive there, that Saint john taketh the fire by a Metaphor: and that he understandeth no other thing by the fire, than the holy Ghost, of whom he hath already spoken the better to expound the nature of the same: for as the fire, is pure & clean, and cannot suffer any spot The holy ghost is a fire. or filth, but purgeth, maketh clean, & illuminateth the consciences, & inflameth them to the love of God. For which cause, he was sent unto the Apostles in the likeness of tongues Act. 2. a. 3 of fire: the which S. john did foresee & forespeak off, using such words. Theophilus. Thy exposition doth please me very much. Wherefore if thou makest it no difficulty, to take in that place the fire, for the spirit of God & for more ample exposition of his nature & properties, wherefore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take the water in that place for that same signification, seeing that agreeing that the water hath with the nature of the holy Ghost? For there is no less reason: but a great deal more appearance. For Saint john putteth the holy Ghost first, & the fire afterwards. Wherefore it seemeth, either that he understandeth two things separated: or that he expoundeth the thing more clear, by a more darker thing: Although that thy answer doth sufficiently satisfy that objection. But in that place jesus Christ putteth the water first: & afterwards, as if he would Holy Ghost water expound his Metaphor and comparison, and give unto it more greater brightness, he declareth what he would signify by that water: to wit, the holy Ghost: unto whom he giveth that name for many causes. First, because that as the fire is an element marvelous pure and clean, and so necessary unto man's life, that it is impossible for men to lack it, so is it of the water: the which is also by nature clear, pure and clean and very proper for to represent the same of the holy Ghost. For it washeth, purifieth, cleanseth and refresheth the hearts and consciences, for to comfort them, and to make them bring forth fruit pleasing unto God: in such sort that the water causeth the earth to fructify & renoweth and maketh it fertile, & washeth away the filthiness Heb. 6. b. 7 from the body. It quencheth and putteth out in like manner the fire and heat of wicked carnal concupiscences, as the water quencheth out the fire: and quencheth the thirst and alteration of the poor feebled souls, & refresheth them for ever. The second cause is, that he would have opened unto us the intelligence and understanding of ceremonies, baptisms and purifycations contained in the law of Moses & of the prophet's in like manner, by which the holy ghost was promised, chief by Esay & Ezechiel: unto Esa. 44. ●. 1 Ezech. 36. g. 33. whom he maketh allusion & hath had the regard thereunto. Therefore he would expound them unto us, and give us to understand, that those waters promised of God, did signify none other thing, than the abundance of the holy ghost, which aught to be shed forth upon all flesh, as a river and a flood of water, which watereth and overfloweth all the earth. The which Saint Peter witnesseth to have been Act. 2. 2. 1 accomplished both in him and in the other Disciples of jesus Christ, the day of Pentecost, according to the prophecy of joel. And therefore jesus Christ, would as well in joel. 2. g. 29 that place, as in speaking unto the Samaritane, and bidding those which were in the temple to come drink of those living john. 4. b. 14 & 7. f. 38 waters, use those manners of speakings: And for to declare unto us in like manner, to what end he hath instituted the sign of the water, in the baptism. And that it is true, I do take Saint john for a witness: who expounding the words of his Master, says: that he understandeth by those waters, the holy Ghost the which the believers aught to receive. Thirdly, by that form of figured speaking, be teacheth us in like manner, what the Christian man aught to be, that is, regenerated by the holy Ghost, setting forth the water and the wind, which are bodies more subtle, thinner, clearer, & purer than the earth, which is an element more weightier, unpurer, thicker and material. These words than do signify as much as if he had said, that in steed of that weighty, earthly, carnal and corruptible man, we must be regenerated into a new man, heavenly, spiritual and perfect: as much differing from this here which is earthly and falling, as the water and the wind do differ from the earth: And it must be that the same is done by the holy Ghost which is the true water, which maketh that purification in us. Eusebius. Thy exposition is not without a fair show. But aught I therefore the sooner to receive it, than the same of the ancient Doctors, who in that place by the water, have understanded the baptism which is given by the water: and chiefly Saint john Chrisostome. Theophilus. I am well content, to magnify with the ancients In. Io. ca 3 home 24. the Sacraments, as much as shall be possible: So that thou will't understand them so as they themselves would they should be understanded. For although that I would receive the exposition of Chrisostome, it followeth not therefore, that by the same one may conclude, the element of the water to be so necessary unto salvation, that without the same, man cannot obtain it. For we must consider, that when the scripture & the ancient Doctors do speak of the sacraments, they have not regard only The stile of the scripture & of the ancient Doctors touching the sacraments to the outward sign, but do stay themselves principally upon the thing signified by them, the which they do understand properly. And therefore following their intelligence, we may expound those words after that sense, as if jesus Christ did say: he which shall not wash away his sins, which shall not receive truly the holy Ghost, and which shall not be received into my Church, and into my flock, after the manner as I have ordained that he should do by the baptism, shall not enter into the kingdom of God. It followeth not therefore, that he which shall have here all the things comprised and signified by the baptism, aught to be rejected and forsaken of God, if he lack but the water. But yet the better to content thee, I will declare unto thee evidently, that not only the ancient Doctors, but also the scholasticalles and questionaries, do confirm my sentence. For the master of the sentences, having moved the same question which Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem. thou hast propounded, touching those words of jesus christ, answered that the same place aught to be understanded, of those which may be baptized, and do make none account The exposition of the schoolmen upon the place of the 3. chapter of Saint ●ohn of it: or that one may thus expound it: he which shall not be regenerate of the water & the holy Ghost, that is to say, of that regeneration which is made by the water & the holy Ghost shall not be saved. Now the regeneration cannot be made only by the baptism, but also thorough penance and by the blood. Behold the very words of the master of the sentences who understandeth by the blood, the same of the Martyrs, which is shed for the witness of the truth. For your own doctors perceiving the absurdities & inconveniences which would follow if one would understand that place of jesus Christ of the exterior baptism, and to Three sorts of baptism take it rigorously have been compelled to say, that there should be three sorts of baptism, that is to say, of the De cons. dist. 4. ca baptis. Glos. ss. Bap. water: of the holy Ghost: and of blood: by the which division, they do confess openly, that there is an other kind of baptism, than the same of the water, by the which man may be saved. There is the baptism of the holy Ghost and of faith, which may be without the same of the water. Upon which the master of the sentences Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem Aug. de uni bap allegeth Augustine, saying: Thou dost demand which is greatest, either faith, or the water? I doubt not but that thou will't answer unto me, that it is the faith. If then that which is lest can sanctify, shall not that which is greater do it better, to wit, the faith, of which jesus john. ●●. c. 25 Christ hath said: he that believeth on me, yea though he were dead, yet shall he live. Eusebius. Objection of the necessity of baptism Aug. ad Fortunat. De cons. dist. 4. ca Cathecumenian. S. Augustine nevertheless concludeth of the words of jesus Christ, that none can come unto eternal life, without the sacrament of baptism: but those which do shed their blood for the truth, in the Church. But which is more, he saith: we do not believe that any Cathecumenian hath eternal life, although that he shall dye in good works, if he be not baptized or martyred. You do well know that in the ancient Church, those which had received the Gospel, and were not yet baptized, were called Cathecumenes, because that one Cathecumenes. had instructed them in the faith. And following that same matter, he says more over. We believe that there is no way of salvation but for those that are baptized. Theophilus. I believe that thou art not ignorant, how your Sent. 4. dist. 4. q. 1. ca 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aur. ope. de ver● contra 〈◊〉 1. p●●ce. own doctors, do answer to that place: Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine, saying: that his exception is not sufficient, and that the man which knoweth jesus Christ, may be saved without baptism, by an other means then by martyrdom. But which is more, he affirmeth, that the man which believeth himself to be perfectly baptized, & yet nevertheless is not, shallbe out of all danger of damnation: and says that that says should s●rue him to salvation, although that it were builded upon a falsity. But what is he among us, which is perfectly assured whether he be baptized or no. How can we know it, but by the witness of an other? Therefore the ma●ster of the sentences answereth, upon the objections made by thee, that we must understand the words of saint Augustine, according to the declaration that he hath given in other places, in which he entreateth that matter more amply: And therefore says he, we must understand those things, of those which have had Sent. 4. dist. 4. His autem. Solution. the time and leisure for to be baptized, & have not done it. For if any having faith and charity would be baptized, Salvation with ou● baptism. and cannot, being overtaken with necessity, the benignity & liberality of the most puissant God, recompenseth Aug. li. de fide. ad Pet. & in Eccle. do. ca 44. the which wanted in the sacrament. For when he may pay, if he do not pay, he abideth bond: But when he cannot and yet nevertheless he is willing to do it, God which hath not tied his power unto the sacraments, imputeth it not unto him. I have alleged unto thee the very words even as they be written in the book of the master of the sentences which yet proveth by saint Augustine, that the invisible sactification, hath been in some, and hath profited Aug. in levi. q. 88 them without the visible sacraments, saying after this manner: the visible sanctification, the which is done by the visible sacrament, may be without the invisible: but it cannot profit. Yet we must not nevertheless contemn and despise the visible sacrament. For the contemner of the same, cannot be sactified inuisib●●e. And notwithstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others have written of the baptism of blood, he declareth yet nevertheless sufficiently enough, that he which without Sent. ●. dist. ●. q. ●. cas. 10 Baptism of bleile being baptized sheds his bleude, for the name of jesus Christ, is not baptized by that blood which hath been shed: But that the Church holdeth him for baptized, because that by the same, he hath sufficiently witnessed, that he hath not despised baptism, but that he would willingly receive it, if it had been possible for him: Sigh that he hath showed such faith in the Gospel of jesus Christ. Eusebius. I grant that thou sayest, as touching men of age, unto whom the faith and repentance do recompense the want of baptism. But of young infants it is otherwise. For sith that there is neither ●aith nor repentance in them, they cannot be saved without baptism. Therefore says the master of the sentences, that those which die without baptism, yea though The sentence of Saint Angust● touching the children that die without baptism L●. de fid. ad pe●re dia. De cons. dist. 4. ca Fer●missume one bring them to be baptized, shallbe dampened: and doth prove it by saint Augustine, saying: hold this for a surety and doubt nothing at all of it, that not only men having already reason, but also the young infants, which begin to live in their mother's belly, and do there die, without the sacrament of holy baptism which is given in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost: or those which without the same do pass out of this world after that they are born, shallbe punished with eternal fire. For although that they have not had sin by their proper act and work, yet they have nevertheless drawn unto them by their conception and nativity, the damnation of original The Limb of the young infants destroyed sin. Theophilus. Thou hast now beaten down the Limb of the young infants. For if the words of Saint Augustine be true, according to the sense which thou givest unto them, the little infants dying without baptism, are all dampened and punished in eternal ●re. They are then in hell. Wherefore it is not now need to forge and make for them a Limb. By that means all the doctrine of your doctors is here overthrown. And therefore they have not all allowed that sentence, but have judged it too rigorous and cruel, in such sort, that some, for that cause, have called S. Augustine, the hangman of the young In●ants: notwithstanding The hangm● of infant's that he is well worthy that they do speak of him more reucrently. For I do not think, that he himself would that these words should be taken after such rigour and extremity. And therefore it is need to consider the occasions which might have moved him to writ after that sort. For if the necessity and the impossibility excuseth the great one's, wherefore shall the little one's ●e less excusable, which have yet more excuse, than the great one's may have? For when they die being young, or in their mother's belly, or out of it, what fault then was in them, that they were not baptized? hath God conceived more greater hatred against them then against the great one's? although the baptism of the water should be as much necessary unto salvation, as you do make it, if there be any exception for the even, by what right & reason may it be denied unto the others, when the cause & the excuses are equal? But we aught to consider, that in the t●●e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people, which had not the Sacraments in such estimation and reverence as they aught to have, (as we Errors about the Sacraments have proved it in our time) in which some have so much attributed unto it, that they have made of the visible signs a jesus Christ, and an Idol. The others to the contrary do hold them as signs, without virtue and efficacy, no more than the signs which the soldiers do bear, for to show what Prince they do serve. hilarius. But have we not had Anabaptistes, which would baptize themselves again, and have condemned Anabaptists the baptism of young Infants, willing to defer it until they should come unto the age of discretion? Theophilus. Let us not doubt, that from the time of Saint Augustine, but that there be many found, more negligent, than they aught to he, touching the sacraments: the which thing hath compelled the aun●ients to magnify them so much. And therefore those which are come after them, not considering the causes wherefore they did the same, have taken the words rawly, without a fit interpretation, and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratively, which hath been the cause that they have made Idols, as though the virtue of jesus Christ, and of the Christian religion were in those visible signs. We cannot deny, but that in the time of those good ancient fathers, many after that they had known the Gospel, tarried not long time to cause Baptism delayed themselves to be baptized: yea, often times until the latter end of their life. Now they did the same, some through negligence others, because of the opinion that they had, that through the baptism, all the sins that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that reason they tarried as long as they could, for to departed out of this world more purer and clean from their sins. But which is worse, some under that hope, did take the greater holdness to sin. Whom Chrisostome rebuketh, showing unto them, that peradventure God will not give Chris●. in epist. ad Hebr. De cons. dist. 4. ca quando them the grace, to have space to be baptized, if they did tarry until the hour of their death, and if they did abuse so the baptism, as he hath seen that it hath happened unto many, who through that vain hope & trust, have been deceived. In like manner also hath basil the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharply those which do so. Even as then the great and old one's have delayed their baptism, it is not to be doubted, but that for these same reasons, they have done the like towards their children. And therefore we must not be abashed, if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptism, for to correct such faults, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and stir up the Christians to give their endeavours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that To baptize twice in a year. cause it was auncyently established in the Church, that they should baptize twice in a year. That is to say, at Easter and at Whits●●tyde ● although that the baptism De cons. dist. 4. was permitted at all t●●e in case of 〈◊〉. There was yet an other reason, which ●ight have given 〈◊〉 unto saint Augustine to speak so. He did see and perceive that many 〈◊〉 infected with the here●●e of the Pelagians Pelagians. which did not attribute much unto the grace of God, and did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at all original 〈◊〉, but did greatly magnify the virtues and strengths of men. ●or which caus● they had not the baptism in grea●e estimation. And therefore would ●aint Augustine declare the nature of original sin, and induce men to give and Original sin bear more greater honour unto the sacraments. Then the better for to manifest the same, he declareth how the young infants which have not yet committed any actual sin, are not yet nevertheless without sin worthy of death and eternal damnation, because of their corrupt nature which they have drawn, as from a right inheritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mothers in their conception and nativity. For they have been conceived and born in sin and iniquity: and Psa. 51. ● 27 can be none others, than such as the sinful beginning, from which they are come. For that which is born of the ●●esh, is flesh: And a wolf cannot engender but Io●n. ●. 2. ● a young Wolf: a Serpent a young Serpent. And even as we do not leave off or cease to hate a young Wolf, although that he hath not yet eaten any sheep, or a Serpent, notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venom, but do judge him worthy of death, because of the perverse nature that is in them: so aught we to esteem, and think that God hath no less occasion to hate and condemn us, even from our mother's belly, because of our per●ersitie and natural malice engendered with us. And though he should damn us eternally, he should do us no wrong, but only that which our nature meriteth and deserveth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any work, which we may judge to be evil and wicked, sith that he hath not yet the understanding, discretion nor the power to do it, it followeth not therefore, but that the perversity and malice, which is natural in man, hath already his root in him, as one part of his paternal inheritance, the which cannot please God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth her fruits, yet they do remain still there, as in their root, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venom is already in a Serpent, although that he bite not: and the nature of a Wolf, in a young Wolf, how innocent so ever he seemeth to b●●. But from whence do the fruits of the flesh proceed, and the sins which man committeth, when he is of age, but of that vicious root, of that original sin, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Augustine did no wrong, to aggravate that natural corruption, and to say that the infant, from his mother's belly is culpable of e 〈◊〉 fire, not only the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptism: if he do understand by the baptism the grace and mercy of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated unto the elect: As I think verily, that he did chiefly understand it. For if he would take it by the rigour, for the exterior baptism, and the material ceremony, I cannot nor may not agree with him: sith that he allegeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures, for so prove that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant unto the bounty and grace of GOD, as we have already sufficiently declared: But I esteem and judge rather, that he understandeth by the baptism made in the name of the Father, the Sonn●and of the holy Ghost, the virtue and efficacy and the thing figured by the exterior Baptism, which is the true sign and witness of him, which is spiritual and interior, as the sign and exterior ceremony, by the which yet nevertheless, he signifieth and comprehendeth all the virtue of the baptism of jesus Christ, after the manner, as the holy scripture hath accustomed to use. For in the same Signs and figures for the things ligned & figured the sign & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured, comprehending the whole for part because that the scripture addresseth it unto the faithful, which do not receive the sacraments in vain, and without a spiritual meaning: Therefore the Apostle says: All you that are baptized have put on Christ. And yet nevertheless, Simon the Magician was baptized outwardly Gal. 3. d 27 The saith of Simon Act. 8. b. 13. by Philip, and yet I do not believe that ever he did put on Christ, sith that he did not truly believe. Eusebius. Notwithstanding it is written in the Acts, that he believed. Theophilus. It is certain. But yet nevertheless he hath well declared af●ewardes, that the same which he hath done was but dissembling, and that he had never true faith. But saint Luke, who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking, as we do say, that a man hath received the gospel: or that a jew hath made himself or is become a christian, and hath believed in jesus which yet nevertheless may do it, by hypocrisse, and not in deed. Yet nevertheless we do speak even as the things are showed unto us, leaving the judgement of the heart unto God. So hath saint Augustine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Simon Magus hath believed. hilarius. I think, Eusebius, that thou oughtest to content thyself with the answer which Theophilus made unto thee. For it is so clear and easy, and so much confirmable unto the Annallogie of the faith, that none can speak against it, except he do love rather to contend and strive thorough obstination, then to content himself with reason. And if thou do diligently consider, and well way that which hath been answered unto thee, thou m●ist profit by it many ways. For by the same thou mayst know what aught to be the use of the sacraments: what aught to be the true baptism and the true regeneration of a Christian. If thou dost understand that, thou shall be 〈◊〉 more in doubt, nor in 〈◊〉 of the young Infant●● which die without baptism: But wilt leave them in the hands of God, and 〈◊〉 reforge all unto his mercy. And if thou be once come unto that point, th●● shalt also know the 〈◊〉 o● those which do carry their children that are bor●● dead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they did in that 〈◊〉 unto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of grace of Geneva, or unto our 〈◊〉 of Lau●anne. Thomas. They did also carry them unto the holy cross, and unto our Lady of Butter. Our Lady of butter. hilarius. There 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Cheese, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Butter, the which is now altogether 〈◊〉. W●● should have but a little judgement, if we ●●●we not those great abuses, and to judge of those false 〈◊〉. Further more, by th●se same reasons thou mayst judge of the 〈◊〉 of those which do give authority unto the wise and 〈◊〉 ●●emon to baptis● the young 〈◊〉 of women 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 danger of 〈◊〉 Eusebius. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there in that Hillanius Th●● 〈…〉 can tell thee. Theoph●●●●. There is first of all this evil, that those that require such baptism, are of an opinion that it is so necessary unto 〈◊〉, that without the same their child cannot be saned. Wherein they do 〈◊〉 unto the grace of jesus Christ, and do presume 〈◊〉 of the virtue of his holy spirit, and do tender public and open witness of their superstition and infidelity. Again, they sin in that that they do dishonour the Sacraments, when they give and bestow them unto others then unto those unto whom God hath given the charge to administer them. Wherefore they cannot fail, either on the one side or on the other, but that they are greatly to be rebuked. For if they do add to it necessity, it appeareth already into what error they are. If they say that they do not put to it necessity, and that they do not tie the grace of God unto the corruptible elements, and exterior ministry, wherefore then do they give that authority unto women, without the word of God? Wherefore do they take any other 〈◊〉 than the same which is given them of jesus Christ? Wherefore do they separate that which God hath joined together? For the baptism & the administration of Sacraments are joined together with the 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 be separated, without over throwing the ornaf which jesus Christ hath put and set in his Church. Now even as the institution of the Sacraments is a public Ceremony and joined together with the ministry of the Gospel, so aught they to be Ministers of Sacraments administered publyckly in the Church, by those self same unto whom the ministry of the Gospel is committed, and which of God and of the same are ●lected pastor● and ministers. And therefore jesus Christ hath not given charge to baptize unto others then unto those unto whom Mat. 28. d 18 he hath commanded to preach his gospel, & to exercise the evangelical ministry in his Church. For it is expre●●y 1. Cor. 14, ●. 34 1. Timo. 2. d. 1● Ecclesiastical offices. forbidden women to speak in the Church, and to usurp upon them any ecclesiastical office: the which thing is not permitted but unto women, & yet not unto all indifferently, but unto those which are elected & lawfully ordained to the same, the which he doth sufficiently declare, when he commanded by his Apostle, that all things should be done honestly ●. Cor. 14. g. 40 & in order. For if in y●●●uile administration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exercise the offices, but to the officers, d● we think that jesus Christ requireth less in the ecclesiastical policy? and that he will suffer, that the same that he hath set should be overthrown? Those than that will allow the baptism of women, aught first to show in what place God hath ordained it: what witness or example of the Scripture they have. If that is wanting them, as I am well assured that it is, they shall be constrained to confess, that that baptism is given without faith, and that it is builded but upon man's opinion. For faith cometh by the hearing of the word of Rom. 10, d. 17 God. If then it have not the word of God, it can have no faith. If it have no faith, it is then sin. For all that Rom. 14, d, 23 which is done without faith is sin. We may then Mat. 21, c. 25 Marinell, 11, d, 30 Luc, 2●, ●, 4 ask them, even as jesus Christ asked the Pharisees, touching the baptism of john. Baptist: to wit, whether it were from heaven or of men. Also in like manner that baptism of women, whether it be of God or of men? If they answer that it ●● 〈◊〉 God, where are the witnesses of the Scripture. I● they answer it is of men, as they shall 〈◊〉 constrayne● to say, they shallbe compelled to confess, that it is the proceeded from an other author contrary unto God: ●●th that jesus Christ directeth men unto heaven and unto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his contrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptism is proceeded of any other, but of the adversary of God, which would advance, women unto the ministery and ecclesiastical offices, from which God would draw and pull them from it, for to declare themselves in all things contrary unto God. Even so hath he done women priests Martionistes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h●. 42 De cons. dist. 4. ca Baptisandi, & constat. Mul●er. E● con●. Car●● 〈◊〉 30. q. 3. Super quis. unde versus ex Chans. de Sacra. Baptizat. laicus, multer si mors t●meatur. Est tamen officium solum modo presbyterorum. Mortis in periculo sufficit omnis homo. among the Palms, which have used women Priests: And among the heretics Martionistes, who with their master Martion, have permitted women to baptize, as Epiphanius witnesseth. Behold the examples & witnesses which you may have, for your baptism of women. Eusebius. I do agree unto all that which thou sayest, as touching the public office, and having no necessity. For the councils, Canons and ancient Doctors, do not say much less, but do witness plainly, that it is not lawful for any person to baptize, but unto the Ministers of the Church, as the Bishops and Priests do. But they do understand the same, when there is no extraordinary necessity, and danger of death. For in such case they do dispense and permit to do it, not only unto lay men and handicrafts men, but in like mann●r ●nto women. Theophilus. We do not dispute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath commanded. I find no necessity, but when God giveth us the means, & that there may be fault in us. Nevertheless if it be needful to arm th●selues with the authority of men, in this matter, yet we will prove that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for v●. For first of all, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉 that ●●er jesus Christ hath said ●●to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and baptize, Wherefore saint August●●●ath 〈◊〉 ●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●●●ly of the woman, but of the pri●●te and particular man, to wit, whether he do● 〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i● 〈◊〉 of neces 〈◊〉 To the whi●h ●é● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉 it th●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ●eas●, D● c●●s. dist. 4. in neces●●tate August. contr. parm●. li. 2. c●. 13. wi●e it is a thing 〈◊〉 that ●● 〈◊〉 ●ot 〈◊〉 that it is lawful, but confesses 〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉 ● certain fault, although that ●ée made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happeneth 〈◊〉 ●●to the good Mariners, who through the violences ●● the 〈◊〉 are constrained to 〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉 and to follow whether the tempests and winds will drive and carry them. There ●s no doubt, that 〈◊〉 from the time of Saint Augustine, that error and custom was not any thing at all received. Wherefore Saint Augustine ●●rst not altogether condemn it. No more also dared he ●o allow it, nor altogether excuse it o● 〈◊〉 Yet nevertheless, if we do follow the rule of jesus Christ, that will put us ●ut of all double. Although that we yet have on our side, the fourth Council of Africa, which hath forbidden the same, without any exception. The council of Africa. C●nc. Carth. 4. C●●. 100 It is most true, that in the ●e●ré●s ●f Gra●ian, that Canon is alleged, but not according to the truth: as it is written in the book of councils. For he addeth to it the exception, which is not in the true original. hilarius. Although that ●here w●re none but the witnesses of the Priests, they do sufficiently declare that it is evil. For when one bringeth the children to ●ée baptized, they do demand: is there any thing but good? They demand the same, for to know whether that the Infant hath been baptized by the women. If it hath not been baptized, th●● answer, that all is well or there is nothing but good. It followeth then that th●re was an evil when the child was baptized by them. Eusebius. They d●● not understand it so as thou takest it. hilarius. I believe thee well, and I doubt not but that God will make th●m speak, ●● he hath made Campanes to prophecy, without understanding themselves. Eusebius. For that thou 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thyself so much, that we have no witness of the Scripture, how will't thou the● The example of Zipphora. Exo. 4. f. 25. excuse Zipphora, the wi●e of Moses, who circumcised her son Eleaser, in Moses own presence, how hath then Moses pe●●●itte● the same? Theophilus. The example is not like, but rather against thee, then for thee. For first, thou seest that Moses did not esteem the circumcision so necessary, as you esteem the baptism: sith that he made so small account to circumcise his ●onne, although that he had more express commandment, th●● we have of baptism: Furthermore, notwithstanding that that place is very obscure, because that Moses rehearseth the history ●o short and briefly. Yet nevertheless i● one do examine it thoroughly, one shall not find that that example can be better applied, then to the despising of the circumcision and of the Sa●●a●●e●●es. For that which is written, that the Lord or his Angel, came before him and assaulted him, minding to kill him. 〈◊〉 ently declareth that the Lord was ang●●, because that Moses, notwithstanding that he had the ●●●e and the occasion to circumcise his son, hath not done such diligence as he aught to have done. Wherefore the Lord punished him. But as soon as the child was circumcised, he was delivered from that danger, and the Lord did not pursue him any more: But there is an other reason, when the Infants do dye, and that there is no negligence, nor default in the parents. As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumcise, & not Moses, we must consider that then Moses could not do that, because that he was pressed and grieved by the hand of God, who would have killed him. Wherefore, for to save his life, Zipphora laid to hi● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For none other could have done it but she. Eusebius. Now thou art compelled to confess that which I demand. For thou will't excuse Zipphora because of the necessity which constrained her: no more also do we allow the baptism administered by women and others then the ministers of the Church: but in case of necessity. Theophilus. I have yet other reasons against thee. The first is that we do not read, that God hath given express commandment unto men only, to circumcise, as he hath do●e of baptizing. The second is, there was not th●●●ny form of the Church, nor policy and public ministry among the Medianites, and where Moses was. The third is, that it is likest to ●ée true, that Zipphora did that by the commandment of Moses her husband, who feeling himself stroke● of God, admonished her to do that for to save his life. For otherwise, how could ●he have understanded and known, that her husband had been in danger of death, for such cause, if he had not advertised her of it. Although that Moses writing briefly hath not rehearsed all those things at large. But he hath made them sufficiently to be understanded. Now if Moses did command her, she did it not without the word of God: Sigh that Moses was a Prophet: yea him, by whom God addressed and gave his ordinance in the Church of Israel. Furthermore, although that it be so, yet that example is not sufficient, for to build the baptism of women, against the ordinance of jesus Christ: For we aught The examples of the Saints aught not to be all drawn into a general consequence not to draw into a general consequence, the particular examples of Saints: and that which by a singular privilege and dispensation hath been sometime permitted them, if we have no express commandment as they have had: or the same occasions and circumstances. Besides that, that there be some examples of holy men, the which the Scripture alloweth not always, notwithstanding that it rehearseth them, or if it do allow them in those there, it followeth not therefore, that it doth the like in us, if we have not a certain vocation and calling of God. Thomas. I greatly fear Eusebius, that in disputing after this manner, the Limb and the purgatory which thou upholdest and mainteinest, will be altogether destroyed and overthrown. For as far as I can judge, the same of the young children is altogether thrown down to the ground, if thou do not help it. The purgatory hath but a little more hold: There remaineth now but the Limb The Limb of the Fathers. of the fathers, of which I do very much desire to know the resolution, and to understand whether it be all one with Paradise. For Theophilus hath already almost proved it to be so, speaking of the estate of those which were in Abraham's bosom. Eusebius. I do not deny but that the ancient Fathers, which were detained in the Limbs, had already a certain participation of the celestial joys, but not so great, as they have had after the death and passion of jesus Christ. Theophilus. I hope that we shallbe soon agreed and that there shall be in the end no other difference between the Saints which are dead under the old and new Testament, then between the living, which have been both in the one and in the other. Thou canst not deny 〈◊〉 but that One only church and eternal. the Church of jesus Christ hath begun, thence the creation of the world, & the first that ever was last & righteous, & the which shall so continued unto the end & conclusion of the world, & shall continued eternally. Eusebius. I do confess no less. Theophilus. I● followeth by the same reason, that the Church of the patriarchs & prophets, which have been before the coming of our Lord jesus Christ is none other but the very same of his Apostles, Evangelists & Disciples: and that the faithful of the people of Israel and those of the christian people are but one people & one church. For they had one very God: one very Christ and the very Heb. ●●. c. ● promises: one very spirit of faith: and hau● eaten of one manner of spiritual meat, and did all drink of one manner 1. Cor. 10. 23. of spiritual drink with us, as the Apostle witnesseth. Eusebius. Then there shall be no difference between the ancient Fathers and us. To what end then served the coming of jesus Christ? Theophilus. I have not yet said so. For I do find great difference. Eusebius. What? Theophilus. Difference between the old and new Testament. As great as is between a star and the Sun, from the day break and dawning to high none: between the shadow and the body: between the Image and the truth: between the thing promised, and the thing given. Eusebius. Thou will't yet come unto my matter. For it seemeth by those words, that thou leavest to the ancients but the shadows and figures and that thou givest unto us the body and the thing figured. There is then great difference. Theophilus. Yet thou understandest me not very well. I do not deny, but that they had all that which we have: but not so clearly, so excellently and so gloriously, nor in such abundance of glory and majesty: For by 2. Cor. 3. c. 1● the coming of jesus Christ the knowledge of God, and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath been more greater, and more ample than before: not only in the land of Canaan, & to the people of Israel, but in all lands, countries Act. ●. ●. & nations and the spirit of God with all his gifts, graces and riches, hath been distributed in more greater abundance efficacy virtue & magnificence then ever it was Eusebius. Difference between the dead under the old and new testament. That which thou speakest off, toucheth not yet but to the living which have lived as well under the old as the new testament. But what difference dost thou put between the living and the dead, under the one and the other? Theophilus. That should be too great temerity and rashness in us, to define of the estate of the dead, and to affirm any other thing then that which standeth manifestly unto us by the holy Scriptures. Yet nevertheless, because that in the same there are some places, which give light unto us of that same. I will not make it any great repugnance to put in that matter, such certain difference between them, as we have put between the living. Eusebius. It seemeth then, that thou wouldst say that the gates of Paradise were no less open, before the death and passion of jesus Christ then afterwards. And that there was none other difference, between the heavenly joy and fruition of the ancient fathers, and of the Christians that are dead, saying that now all have it more ample and more excellent. Theophilus. As for my part there where I have not the scripture well expressed, I do leave unto every one his free judgement, so that it be ruled by the word of God. Touching my part, I will expound unto thee, that that I can draw & comprehend out of the holy scriptures, by the which it is sufficiently made known unto us, that notwithstanding that jesus Christ hath been immolated and offered upon the Cross for to satisfy the righteousness of God for us, at the time which was ordained him of the father, yet hath he been The sacrific● of Christ is eternal. 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Heb. 13. b. 8 ne●erthelesse killed and offered in the presence of God, from the beginning of the world. For it is written: jesus Christ was yesterday and to day, and the same continueth for ever. By those words, the Apostle comprehendeth all the time past, present and to come. To which jesus Christ himself had-regarde, when he said, Abraham did see my days and rejoiced. For although john. 8. g. 58 that in respect of us he was crucified in the fullness of time, in those latter days, yet nevertheless in the presence of God, he hath been a●●ayes: and his sacrifice hath been eternally presented unto him. For with God there is up difference of times, as in us, because that all Rom. 8. c. 15 Gal. 4. ●. 4 things are present to him, and that he is above, and out of the same. For a thousand years before him, are to Psal. 90. a. 4. ●. Pet. 3. b, 8 him but as one day. Wherefore in the same sort as the death and passion of jesus Christ serveth now to us, which believe that he hath been crucified for us, although that he hangs no more in the cross, so I hold it for certain, that it profiteth those which lived before that he was crucified, and have believed that he aught to come and dye for them, even as we believe that he is come, and that he is dead for us. Eusebius. To what end hath served then his coming? Theophilus. Dost thou yet not understand it? If a man were detained and kept in prison for certain debt that he oweth, and that he hath a certain friend who cometh to be his surety and to pledge him, body for body, and goods for goods, and that the creditor & prince receiveth & alloweth him for his pledge, surety and hostage, shall not the prisoner be delivered by means of that surety? But yet nevertheless, upon such condition, that either he, or his surety do pay and satisfy for him, at the time as shallbe appointed him. After Christ our surety. Genes. 3. c. 15 the same manner hath God done, with those good ancient fathers. For since that he made the promise unto Adam, of the seed of the woman which should break the serpent's head, the which afterwards he hath reiterated and confirmed more amply and more clearly unto Abraham, Gen●●. 12. ● 15 20. 48 2. Reg. 7 Psal. 40 Psal. 130 jacob, David, and to all the other patriarches and celebrated by all his Prophets, and by all the sacrifices, oblations, figures and ceremonies commanded in his law, jesus Christ offered himself to God his father, for to be our pledge and surety: and gave himself to him as a pledge, for all those which have believed in his promises, made of him. But upon such condition, that jere. 23. ●. 5 & ●3. c. 14 〈◊〉 ●. ●. 47 he being very and true God, according to the good pleasure of the father, for to satisfy his will and his righteousness, took upon him our flesh and presented himself before his judgement at the time as by his providence was constituted and appointed him, for to satisfy in our steed. Now sith that jesus Christ hath once answered for his brethren believing in him, the heavenly father hath excepted it, aswell as though, he had already satisfied it, as afterwards he hath done it in his time. Eusebius. Dost thou think that 〈◊〉 of glory in the other ly●e. there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of joy and of glory? Theophilus. To the end thou mayst not rebuke me in over rash defining of such things, I will propound unto thee the witnesses of the scripture, by which thou mayst comprehend that which we may judge off. Mark then first the witness of the Apostle, which says, writing of the holy prophets and servants of God which were before the coming of Christ: that all those there, having Heb. 11. ●●. obtained witness by faith received not the promise, God having provided a certain better thing for us, to the end that they should not be come unto perfection, without us. He says not, that they have altogether received the promise: For it was made first of all to them. But he understandeth the accomplishing and the fruit of the same, of which they have not been altogether deprived: But they have not had it so perfectly, as we have it now: For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending, he signifieth then, that there is already great beginning of felicity: But the perfection was not yet, nor shallbe until the consummation and restoring of all things. For the term of consummation and perfection, are relatives, the which we must necessarily refer unto some beginning. To which agreeth the answer that GOD made unto the souls of the Martyrs which demanded vengeance against the persecutors of the Church: unto whom the Lord answered, that they should tarry until the number of Apoc. 6. c. 10 their brethren were fulfilled. Eusebius. make me to understand that more clearly. Theophilus. assoon as we b●gin to know God in A comparison of the life present and of that to come. Heb. 6. ●. 4 Io●●. 5. this world, and to believe in jesus Christ, we begin also to taste the goodness of the celestial life and of the world to come: But we have not yet perfect joy. Yet nevertheless sithence that we have once tasted that celestial goodness we grow from day to day, from knowledge to knowledge, from faith to faith, from good to be better, until we become unto the age of a perfect man, to the fullness of Ephe. 4 Christ, to the eternal felicity and ended blessedness. Now if already in this vale of misery, our soul, being charged with this terrestial body, shut up and kept in the same, as in a dark prison, altogether wrapped in miseries, sins and maledictions, receiveth such consolation and joy, there is no doubt, but that after that it is delivered from that prison and capti●●tie and hath put of all earthly corruption, it may grow into all goodness and perfection: or else in vain hath Saint Paul said: I des●re to be loosed and to be with Christ, which thing is to ●e best of all. P●il. ●. d. 2● And yet nevertheless it hath not her ●e●i●●tie and perfect glory, until the resurrection of his glorious body, And that it be again united wi●h it, and se● God face to face, and know him as we have been know●● of him: 1. Cor. 13. d. 12 1. Cor. 15 d 28 1. john. 3. ●● Colos. 3. ●, 3 then when he shall have vanquished all things, and shallbe all in all. For it is not yet appeared, what we shallbe: but our life is hide in jesus Christ. Even as then, those which do now departed out of this life, have not yet such joy, as they shall have after that jesus Christ shall appear in glory, ●or to judge all flesh, when we shall all arise, so by the like reason we may esteem and think, that the ancient fathers, which have been before the coming of jesus Christ, have not had altogether such joy and felicity, before ●is resurrection as afterward. For if the Angels themselves, which always do behold Augmentation of the felicity to the Angels the face of the heavenly father have received increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicity by the coming of jesus Christ, and there aught to receive it more ample in the resurrection of the just and righteous, we must not doubt, but that as much shall happen unto the blessed spirits and just souls. Wherefore we may easily know by the same: how great and admirable the mystery and secret of the redemption of mankind is: and what is the excellency of the Church of jesus Christ: sith that the angels themselves do● receiu● so great profit and increase in all goodness. Thomas. By what place of the holy scripture canst thou prove that which thou speakest. Theophilus. They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter, speaking of that matter, says that of the Prophets & ancient fathers, that it hath been revealed unto them, that not to themselves, but unto us, they should administer the things; the which (says he) now are declared unto you by them 1. Pe●er. 1. ●●● which have declared the gospel, by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels do desire to behold. The Angel● had not that desire, but that they did feel a great goodness. But saint Paul showeth unto us the same yet more expressly and declareth unto us sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed Psal. 9●. c. 11 Hebr. 1, c. ● to the health of men, which cannot be in perfect and full blessedness as we which are their companion's, burgesses and citizens of the kingdom of heaven with them, neither are we also come thereunto. For even as they do rejoice over the sinner that repenteth and which Luc. 15. c. 10 ret●urneth unto God: also without all doubt, sith that abo●e all things they do procure our health and salvation, it cannot be, but that they are very angry and sorry when they see us yet pressed with sin and death and to strive against them in great anguish. Forasmuch then as their ●●●y●itie is joined with ours, it is certain that there's without ours cannot be perfect. For it is written expressly that the saints shall judge the Angels and the world 1. Cor. 6, ●, 2. And the Apostle affirmeth, that now unto the rulers and powers in heaven might be known by the congregation Eph●. 3, b. 10 the manifold wisdom of God according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ jesus our Lord. If the Angels than do learn yet and profit in the knowledge of the goodness of God, the which they do daily see to be manifested by new miracles towards the Church, so in like manner it must be that they do acknowledge us for their judges, and princes in Christ, and because of Christ it is easy to know that there is yet a certain thing in them which doth seek his perfection of jesus Christ. Therefore it is written that thorough him all Christ the restorer of all things Ephe, 1, b, 10. Collo, 1, ●, ●●. things are repaired and restored, both in heaven and in earth. Wherein the scripture teacheth us, that his coming was not only healthful unto men, but also unto all creatures yea unto the Angels themselves, which had no sin. For even as the f●ll of man hath drawn after him the ruin of all other creatures and hath made them subject unto malediction with him? so every creature sigheth and groaneth with him also, loo●●●g for their redemption Rom. ●. d. ●● and deliverance, the which is joined together with his. Now if the Angels cannot be perfectly consummated in all blessedness without us, which are their compaignio●s, how shall our other brethren do which are joined nearer unto us, & which do yet t●●●e for the redemption of their bodies, and the consummation of their joy? the which they cannot have without us, and a great deal less than the Angels. Thomas. We● may also conclude by the contrary, that the tor●ents of the devils Torments of the reprobate aggravated. and reprobate do increase: and that they shallbe greater and more grievous, after the latter judgement, than they are at this present. Theophilus. Saint Peter doth give us most evident witness, writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner: how will God spare them, if he have not spared 2. Peter. 2. 2. 4. the Angels that have sinned: but hath cast them down into hell, & delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept unto judgement? And by and by after he says moreover: the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement. We cannot deny, but that the devils 2. Peter. 2. b. 9 and reprobate are already in torment, and but that they are already drowned in the bottom of hell, sith that they are rejected of God, & that they are in his wrath ● indignation. But yet nevertheless by the words of saint Peter we may easily understand that they do attend and ●ari● for yet, a certain more grievous judgement, & gods anger more fearful than they have féeled. But for to make thee to understand more plainly that which I think, I will expound it unto thee by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter. When a malefactor hath committed some certain great crime, worthy of death The beginning of god's judgement & grievous punishment, there is no doubt, but that he feeleth his condemnation in his conscience, assoon as he hath committed the evil deed. He hath his conscience which is his Conscience. C●nsc●●ncia 〈◊〉 ●●st●●. accusor: for a witness: for a judge and for a hangman: and it can be none otherwise. His conscience ●yteth and Infinal. Sa●y. 13. Cur tamen hos tu. Euasisse pute● quos d●●● cons●●● sacti. Meus reddit attonitos, & surdo verbere c●dit. Occultum qu● ti●nt● an●mum tortore st●gellū. Item. Exemplo qu●d cunque malo committitur ipsi. Displicet autori prima haec est vl●●●, quod se Iudi●● nemo no●●ns absoluitur. Item. Nocte d●●que suum gestat ●n pectore testem. Spartano cut dam respond●t Pythia ●ates Deut. 28. c. 15. accuseth him. Afterwards he cometh to be vanquished of his misdeeds, by his own proper witness, which availeth more than a thousand witnesses. And after it hath vanquished him, it condemneth him. And even as it constraineth them to witness against themselves, so it constraineth them, to condemn themselves, insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the world, would clear them and pronounce them to be righteous and just, yet nevertheless they cannot absolve and clear themselves, nor avoid their own judgement. Now after the sentence given, it must be that it be put in execution, and that the malefactor be delivered into the hands of the hangman: the which he need not to seek far, nor out of himself. His conscience with the rest, doth yet that office: the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot have rest day nor night. If he see any talk together, he thinketh they talk of him. If he see but a leaf of a tree to wag he thinketh that they are sergeants sent for to take and carry him to prison. If he think to sleep and take rest, he dreameth that he is in the hands of the judge which sendeth him to the hangman, and that they do lead him to the gallows. And in waking and sleeping, he ceaseth not to imagine and think of hangemen, tortures and Gybettes: Wherefore the Prophet hath not said without a cause: That the wicked are like the raging Sea, that cannot rest, whose water ●ometh with the mire and gravel. Even so the wicked have no peace, says the Lord. Esa. 57 d. 20. Genes. 4. b. 8, Mat. 27. ●. ●. Act. ●. c. 1●. Have we not the example very evident in Cain and in judas? From whence proceeded that violence of man's conscience but from GOD? Which maketh his enemies to feel his judgement and his furor, in such sort that they themselves cannot bear it? But are constrained to condemn themselves and despair: which is a certain witness that there is a judgement and ● God unto whom we must tender account. The which The witness of conscience, that there is a God. we aught all to understand and know, although we should never hear speaking of God, nor of his holy scriptures: and although we should have none other witness but the same heré: the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of every one, the which aught well to suffice us. For as saint john says: if but hearts condemn 1. john. 3. d. 20 us, God is greater than our hearts and knoweth all things. That is as much as if he had said, if we ourselves do condemn us, may not God well condemyne us? Sigh that we have such a fear and such a horror doth not our heart admonish us sufficiently, that we have a superior and governor which will not suffer such things? Sigh that there is not so great a Prince, not so great a Tyrant, which feeleth not that hell in his conscience. Although there be not a man upon the earth above him of whom he may be afraid. Dost thou now see, how the hell The beginning of hell and of Paradise. of the wicked beginneth already in him, here in 〈◊〉 world? The which our Lord jesus Christ, would not have us to be ignorant off, saying: be that believeth in the john. 3. 5. 6. son of God, hath eternal life, and shall not taste of death. For he is already passed from death to life, but he that believeth not in the son of God, he is already judged and condemned. Doth he not show us here with the finger how the faithful beginneth already his paradise in this world, and the infidel and unfaithful his hell. hilarius. There is nothing more certain than that which thou speakest. And although we had not the witnesses of the Scriptures, we have the witness of nature, printed into the hearts of all, which hath constrained The Furies and she devils Juvenal. Sat. 13 ●ug. Aene. 6 Cic. in ora●. pro Piso. the Poets to invent and find out that feigning of the furies, the which we may call she diuelles. They do assign their habitation in the hells, and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people, most horribly aswell in this world, as in the other. By the which they understand none other thing, but the torments and assaults of the evil conscience, and that worm which dieth not, The worm of conscience Esa. 66. g. 24 Mar. 9 g. 41 but gnaweth and devoureth incessauntly. Theophilus. I doubt not. But let us see how y●●el increaseth day by day. If the malefactor be already so much tormented before that the judge hath laid his hands upon him, before that he be put in prison, before that he hath been on the rack, vanquished, judged and condemned: Let us think what torment he aught to have, being in prison, after that his process is made and concluded, looking & tarrying for his sentence & cruel death every hour. In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in? Dost thou think that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments, which are prepared for him, are unto him a great deal less pain, than the torments and the death that he looketh for? Eusebius. Truly I believe that there is no great difference, & that he dieth so many times, as he liveth hours and minutes. Theophilus. Thou seest how he is already judged, and yet he is not. He is sufficiently judged and condemned as to himself, sith that he hath his conscience, his confession, his witness and his process against himself, and that he accounteth himself already as dead. But nevertheless, there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to judgement, to hear the sentence of his judge, to be condemned and executed openly, notwithstanding that he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison, yet nevertheless the judge must pronounce openly his last sentence: & that his judgement be put in execution. As much may we say The degrees of the judgement of God. of the Devils and reprobate. Whilst that the wicked do live here in this world, they are like unto malefactors, before that they are apprehended and taken. When God calleth them from this world, he citeth them before him, ●or to appear in judgement: And they are as though they were cast in prison, looking for their latter sentence, which shall be given them in that great ●aye, in which all process, all causes and appeals shall end. Behold the cause wherefore Saint Peter maketh 2. Pet. 2. 2. 4 mention of the bonds and chains, with which GOD bindeth the devils, which he hath reserved to his judgement, using humane and material comparisons, for to declare unto us the heavenly & spiritual things. That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirits do pray unto jesus Christ, that he will not send them into the deep, complaining Mat. 8. d. 29 Mar. 5. 2. 7 and lamenting, because that they did feel by his coming their judgement to approach nigh. And therefore they cried: O jesus thou son of David, art thou come hither, to torment us before our time be come? We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before, as the malefactor, which is in the ●●ockes and chains. But they have dreadful fear when they do see their judge, and that they do feel their last sentence to draw nigh. Thomas. It is to be marveled at, how the one of the matters bringeth in the other, and giveth understanding of it. Thou hast delivered me from one great doubt, & thou The estate of the soul's after they be separated from the body hast instructed me how I aught to answer unto a very hard question, the which was propunded unto me not long a go: that is to say. If after that the soul is separated from the body, whether that it goeth strait way into Paradise, or into hell? For if it goeth into Paradise, or into hell, it seemeth that the judgement is already done, & that we must tarry no longer for it: or if we aught to look and tarry for an other, that the soul's of the faithful or unfaithful, have not yet a place assigned unto them, for to receive felicity or malediction. And therefore some do say, that they sleep until that great journey. But thou hast taken from me the doubt, and hast satisfied me thoroughly. Theophilus. We must not be abashed, although those that sleep do dream. But we aught rather to be The sleepers abashed, to see those that be awake to dream, and to believe and give credit unto the dreams of the sleepers. For if it were so, the works of God, against their nature, should rather diminish then increase and th● faithful aught more to fear the corporal de 〈◊〉 than th● unfaithful: For by the death, the unfaithful should be at rest, and the faithful should be deprived from that portion of the eternal felicity, the which they have already tasted off in this world, the which they aught to have more amply, after that they be delivered from the prison of this mortal body. I believe most assure●ly, that if Saint Paul had thought that he must have slept so long 〈◊〉 in body and soul, after his decease, without having more ●●●ple fruition of the heavenly goodness and joys, than he had in this world, that he would never have said. What to choose I wotto not: I am constrained of two Philip. 1, c. 22. things, I desire to be loosed, and to be with Christ which thing is best of all. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. For in steed to receive more greater goodness as he desired, he was ●●mpayred and made worse: and that portion of the heavenly goodness that he had already tasted off, living in this body, was better for him, then to be altogether spoiled of it, and to sleep, being insensible as a stone, two or three thousand years. hilarius. Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man, who was not very certain nor assured of the eternal life, nor perfectly resolved of the immortality of the souls, but yet nevertheless he saith, that he would not live eighteen years, in such sort, that after that he had depassed three score years, he should sleep the residue of Tus●. q. ●●. ● nentie years: But which is more, he addeth is that matter: the Hogs would not desire that, much less I By that account, he esteemeth the life of Hog's better than that of man, all the while as he abideth a sleep: because that the sleeper is an Image of death, The Image of death. the which always representeth himself in sleeping. Theophilus. And therefore I do conclude, that notwithstanding that the Lord by his providence hath constituted and appointed that the bodies do sleep in the earth, as in their head, until the resurrection, that the number of their brethren shallbe fulfilled, yet nevertheless the faithful nor the unfaithful, never are without their Paradise, & their hell: the which the more as they do approach to their consummation & end, so much the more do they increase & augment, until such time as they are come until the latter degree of felicit●e or infelicity: benediction or malediction. Thomas, After the same manner as thou procéedest, thou will't leave us neither Limb nor Purgatory. Theophilus. As touching the Limb, if one do take it for the bosom of Abraham, and the condition of the ancient fathers, which have been before the coming of jesus Christ. I will not much dispute of the words, if we agree in the thing. I am well contented to confess, that the condition of the ancients, as well those that be lining as those that be dead, compared unto ours, in respect of the same, may be esteemed as a prison, in price of a 2, Cor. 5. palace: If we do behold the shadows and figures, under whose darkness they have been detained and kept, in respect of us: and the servitude and bondage of the mosaical law, using such comparisons as Saint Paul: Gas● 4. ●. 2 who compareth all this ancient people unto young children, which are under their Tutor and Master: and unto servants which are under the fear of their Master, in comparison of the Christian people: the which he compaseth unto the true natural & perfect children, which are already out of bondage & government, saying, that they have not received the spirit of bondage & fear, but the spirit of adoption & of liberty, Upon which we aught to note, that the Ro●. ●, ●. ●● Apostle denieth not simply, but that those good ancient fathers have had the same spirit of adoption and of liberty, as we have received, & but that they were the sons of God, & as perfect in their estate & condition, altogether as we. But for to magnify the virtue & glory of jesus Christ, means to show unto us that the goodness that we have received by him in his coming, are ●●ut any comparison a great deal more excellent: insomuch y● one may call their light darkness, in regard of ours: as he calleth that of Moses, in comparison 2. Cor. 3 of that of jesus Christ. Touching the Purgatory, I have already sufficiently declared what I think of it. And I do not see that the place that is alleged of the book The insufficiency of the book of the Maccabees for to prove Purgatory. The example of judas of the Maccabees, is sufficient for to confirm it: although that the book be very ancient and worthy of credit and to be believed. For although that judas Machabeus had done that which is there recited, it followeth not therefore that we are bond to do the like. For the particular examples of some, are no general rules for all: even as I have already touched, speaking of the example of Zipphora. Afterwards, that witness is all alone, & is there recited, more for to allow the resurrection, and for a public witness of repentance, then for to induce to pray for the dead, as promising deliverance from Purgatory, unto those for whom it is offered. Eusebius. It is very true that the text saith expressly that judas Machabeus doing the same, had a holy and a devout thought of the resurrection, but it is said immediately afterwards: that the advise and thought to pray for the dead, to the end they may be delivered from their sins, is holy and well done. Theophilus. Yet the same concludeth nothing, for the Purgatory. For according to your doctrine, the souls which are in purgatory, are already delivered from their sins, and there rests no more but the pain. And therefore we should rather say, Vt à poems saluantur, that is to say, that they may be delivered from pains, then: Vt à peccatis saluantur: that they may be delivered from sins. Eusebius. Thou dost not consider that sin containeth two things: to wit, the fault and the pain. I confess, pain & fault that the true Christians, thorough the faith in jesus Christ, are delivered from the fault. But it followeth not therefore, but that they must yet bear the pain and satisfy in Purgatory. Theophilus. Whereto then serveth us jesus Christ. And whereto prof●teth us the forgiveness of our sins. Eusebius, jesus Christ serveth us to abolish the original s●●ne and the fault of our sins, that they make us not culpable of eternal damnation, at the judgement of God: and to mitigate and make less the pain, the which we have merited and deserved. Theophilus. I can understand none other thing by Grace but half thy speaking, but that God is as a prince, who at the request of one of his very friends, or of the friend of the Malefactor, showeth grace unto the Malefactor, upon such condition, that if he have deserved to be burned, or to be put upon the wheel, that he should have only but his head cut off: or if he had deserved to have had his head cut off, that he should have but one of his ears cut off, or that he should be but only whipped: or that he should be ransomed with some piece of money, the which he was bond to pay, yet besides his grace and pardon. Dost thou esteem and think such grace and pardon to be whole and perfect? or whether thou will't judge that the Prince had wholly pardoned the Malefactor? hilarius. Not I Eusebius. Is not that sufficient enough, that jesus Christ hath delivered us from eternal damnation, and that we do the rest if we will: or otherwise we should be saved to good cheap. hilarius. Art thou afraid of that Eusebius? or art thou angry and not well content with the goodness that God would do unto us? Theophilus. Behold Eusebius, what jesus Christ thou makest for us, and what credit thou givest him towards God his Father. If he cannot obtain for us perfect grace, Half a saviour. and full forgiveness from pain & fault, he is not a perfect Saviour. And God is not God. For your own Doctors do witness, & namely Raymond, who as oftentimes as God Raymond. pardoneth any thing unto any one, he pardoneth him wholly. For otherwise God worketh not perfectly. Whereupon unde versus Gratta magna Debt, ventam non dimidiabit Aut nihil aut totum prop●tiando d●bi●. they do allege the Verses which I have already once spoken off. hilarius. By that account jesus Christ should not have so much power & credit as the Pope, who by his Bulls and pardons, promises full forgiveness of pain and fault. Grant at the lest as much to the pardon of jesus The Pope more puissant than Christ. God compared unto tyrants Christ, as unto the Bulls and pardons of the Pope. Thomas. Take heed Eusebius, thou make not God a Tyrant: who being not content to chastise & punish the revels and reprobate, cannot pardon those which demand grace and mercy, whatsoever request one do make unto him, but that he keepeth still some root of vengeance, without forgetting the injury that hath been done unto him, but that he receive satisfaction and recompense, either on his body or his goods. The heavenly Father 1. Tim. 2. b. 6 being content with the ransom of his son jesus Christ, for whose love he hath defaced & rend in pieces our bond, that our debts and sins do come no more in remembrance: or otherwise he should not be true in his promises, which he hath made unto us by his Prophets and servants. Eusebius. To what purpose is it then written. That it is a good thing to pray for the dead? Theophilus. Sigh that the book is not allowed nor received for authentic in the true Church, that should be great folly to stay upon it any longer, if I would not bear with thy infirmity, & content thee more fully. I do leave off to allege a conjecture very like unto that which I have spoken off. Thomas. Put it forth. Theophilus. I have sometimes thought, that that proposition, which is as a conclusion, taken out of the history going before, was not put by the author of the said book: but rather of some studious reader, which hath no●ed the same in the margin, and that it hath been added to the text, as it oftentimes happeneth in many good authors. And I am not alone in that opinion but many wise and learned men besides me. And if one do examine the thing well, it is easy to see, that the continuation of the narration seemeth to be broken & marred, & that the sentence hath been put in, the which was a curtain annotation & consequence, which some did make upon the text: as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the books, & noting the places the which we would have to serve us. Eusebius. What reason hast thou for to prove the same? Theophilus. First this, for that I see oftentimes the examples and copies of many books to vary: the which variety oftentimes is happened for such cause. Furthermore, I consider that in that time there was no mention made of purgatory. Wherefore if we must pray for the dead, it is most likest, that the prayer should have been ordained to that end that they should be delivered from the Limbs, if there had been any, then from the pains Prayers for the resurrection of Purgatory: or for the coming of jesus Christ and the resurrection of the flesh. But I do not find in all the holy Scripture, as well of the old as of the new Testament, that ever the patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, have instituted or ordained, that one should make any special or particular prayers, for the dead, neither for to draw them from the Limbs nor from purgatory, nor for the resurrection of their bodies. I will not deny, but that the holy Fathers have greatly desired the coming of jesus Christ, and but that according to their desire they have made earnest prayers and requests unto God, even as we do pray daily, that God's kingdom may come, desiring generally, all that which appertaineth to the fulfilling of the same. But it followeth not therefore, that we must especially ordain particular prayers in the church, for to demand particularly all things appertaining unto the kingdom, & depending of the same. For in making such prayers, we regard not ourselves nor our neighbour, but only the glory of God: the which we desire to be eralted & magnified, without consideration of our people nor of others, but insomuch as our health & salvation is joined together with the glory & ●raltation of his kingdom: But not in such sort that it is required or requisite to use any other manner of prayers, thou those of which we have the express word of God, and the examples of the true servants of God. And if it should have been otherwise, it is impossible that God would have omitted it, without making express mention in his holy scriptures, as I have already sufficiently declared unto thee by reasons so evident, that none can gain say them. Eusebius. Thou will't then conclude for a full resolution that in the word of God is no mention made of Purgatory, nor of prayers for the dead? and that we have no need to pray for them? Theophilus. I will abide firm and steadfast in that sentence, until such time as I have found authority, or example in the holy scripture worthy to be followed: the which I am certain, that one shall not find: except peradventure we would pray for the dead, even as Daniel, and other good Prophets, and princes of juda have made confession and prayers for their sins, and those of their fathers and predecessors: not How one ma● pray for the dead Daniel, 9, ● 4. Reg, 22. d 2. Cor 34. f to that end that God should pardon those which were already dead. For they cannot put to more, nor take away any thing from them, sith that they were already before their judge: But they prayed to that end that God should not impute unto them the sins of their fathers. Eusebius. How should he impute them? sith that he hath said by his Prophet: The son shall not bear the father's Ezech, 18. e. 20 offences, but the soul that sinneth shall dye. Theophilus. I do agree to thee, that if the father hath How the child beareth the offcce of his father. been wicked and the son do turn from his iniquity not willing to follow it, that the iniquity of the father cannot hurt him, no more than his righteousness can profit him, if the father hath been a good man & the son wicked: But when the son is a follower of his father's iniquity, sith that by his doings he alloweth it, he yieldeth himself culpable not only of his own, but of his fathers also, to the which he subscriveth & augmenteth it. And of those the Lord speaketh when he says: that he will visit the sin of the fathers upon the children unto the Exo. 20. a 5 third and fourth generation of them that hate him. Therefore, when the Lordo did threaten to punish his people, and that he yieldeth the causes of his ire and wrath, he 4. Reg. 17 checketh them not only for the sins of the living, but heapeth together & rehearseth also all those of their ancestors and predecessors. And our Lord jesus Christ menaced & threatened the Scribes & Pharisees: that all the innocent blood which was shed from Abel, shall be required at Mat 23. d 35 Luc, 11, g, 5● their hands. Wherefore we must not find it strange, if the Prophets and true servants of God in their confessions & prayers, have prayed for the sins of their fathers and predecessors, that they should not be called to account for to kindle and provoke the wrath of God any more upon them, the which thing in like manner hath judas Machabeus done, as the history witnesseth, in the which it is written, that they found under the coats of those that were slaive, jewels that they had taken out of the temple & from 2. Mach 12. f. 4c the Idols of the jamnites, which thing is forbidden the jews by the law. Then every man see, that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. And so every man gave thanks unto the Lord for his righteous judgement which had opened the thing that was hid. They fell down also unto their prayers, and besought God, that the fault which was made, might be put out of remembrance. For we cannot deny, but that sometime, for the sin of one man alone, God punisheth all the people: As it appeareth Acham. josua. 7. c. 18 in Acham. Which defiled his hands at the destruction of jericho. But how oftentimes hath God punished the cruelty of the fathers and predecessors, upon their successors and their children? as do witness as well the histories as the Prophecies of the Amelechites, Moabites, Amonites, Madianites, Idumeans, Babylonians and of the israelites themselves. Eusebyus. That which thou sayest should have some show, if that place did not make express mention of prayer, to the end that those that were dead should be delivered from their sins, as though they themselves had been yet bond and kept in them. Theophilus. Although that the How those that are dead are punished in their successors. dead, in as much as they have already ended their course, have no more place of repentance, nor of remedy, of whom, we have certain witness in the word of God, yet nevertheless because of the coniosiction & fellowship which they have had with their families, or with their people, there is no doubt, but that their sins, which do redound upon others in part, because of them, and for which it must be that others do suffer, and that their sins be unto them aggravated, cannot rightly be called there's. For notwithstanding that for their part, they have received already punishment, nevertheless they kindred and families, as it happened unto Achab, and to all his house. And we must not think that 4. Reg. 10. a. 1. punishment little, sith that oftentimes, the fathers and parents do fear more the dishonour and damage unto their children and lineage, than their own, as we do see sometime by experience in those which are brought to the gallows, who although they 'cause them to dye without showing mercy, yet they think it a great grace and favour, if one grant them, that they will not let their bodies to hang on the Gibbet, for fear of dishonour & infamy: the which yet nevertheless redoundeth more unto their parents & friends then unto them. But they forget themselves: or rather they think that they do yet foele & shall feel that dishonour, infamy and public shame, which shall continued to their infants and lineage. And although that they be sufficiently tormented with their evil, yet nevertheless they feel a great ease and refreshing if they understand that their children have none evil: & their torment is aggravated and increased, if they understand the contrary. For that cause the Prophets do threaten not only the wicked sort of their own ruin and destruction, but do foreshow unto them that of their children, and the evils which shall happen unto them, as it appeareth in the prophecy of isaiah against Babylon, and others Esa. 13. & 14. like. But for to stop all those evils, and for to appaise the wrath of God kindled upon us, as well for our sins as those of our fathers, there is no better prayers nor offerings then to run with true repentance & amendment of life, to implore his mercy. Behold the good prayers for the dead, to that end that their sins be not counted wish ours. Although that it be after whatsoever manner & 〈◊〉 will't take that place, it sufficeth móe at this present, to have showed unto thee, that thou canst not by the same prove thy purgatory, although that the book should be of the holy scripture. And if thou will't give unto it any credit, it may better serve thee, for to prove the Limb if there be one than the Purgatory. But sith that jesus Christ is come and that you confess that he hath drawn the ●athers from the Limbs, the example of judas Machabeus can have no more place among you: sith that according To pray for the resurrection of the body & the coming of christ to your doctrine, the cause is ceased. Eusebius, Put case, that there were no more neither Limb nor Purgatory, can we not at the lest pray for the resurrection of the dead? And for the second coming of jesus Christ, the which we do look for, as well as the ancient fathers have prayed for the first, and have desired and sighed after it? Theophilus. We may well pray, as I have already said, and ask of God, all that which appertaineth to the perfection of his kingdom: But to make prayers which are called prayers for the dead, and to pray in particular, Apoc. 6. c, 10 that God would raise up again the bodies of those which are dead, and that jesus Christ would soon come to judgement, I have no commandment of God, nor example in all the holy scripture, but rather to the contrary. For when the Lord answered unto the souls of the saints (which complained of their persecutors) that they should ●arry until the number of their brethren were fulfilled, he doth sufficiently show by the same, that he hath preferred the time, the which cannot be plucked nor driven back. And sith that the thing is altogether certain and that we are already all assured, what need is it then to make particular prayers? Eusebius. We are as much assured, that all things which aught to come, are passed by the counsel of God, and that he will give us Esa. 40 c. 13 Esa. 14. ● 26 all that which shallbe requisite to our health and salvation: that all the hairs of our head are numbered: and none shall fall to the ground without his will: and his kingdom Mat. 10. d. 29 Luc. 12. ●. 7 shall shall come and shall be exalted above all creatures, but we may not leave off therefore to pray continually ● to demand those things of God. Theophilus. It is an other thing of us, which are yet in our voyage & earthly peregrination, ● of those which have already ended their course: unto whom we can no more add too nor dimynish. For all the while that we are yet in the battle, we may impair or amend, and we have always need to invocate and call for the aid of God, both for us and for our brethren which are yet in combat & fight with us. And which is more, God commandeth us so to do: not that he Mat. 6. d. 33 &, 7. b. 8 Luc. ●. b. 9 knoweth not better than we, what we do lack, before we do ask, and that he is not willing to give it us, but he doth it for to hold and keep us in his fear, & to learn us to sanctify his name & to exercise our faith towards him, and our love towards our neighbour, whilst that we may serve him in this mortal peregrination. But after that the voctorie is got or lost, and that one is once come and arrived to the haven and port, to which he must go, the cause and the occasion is no more such. Eusebius. Thou hast said before that the souls of the blessed and the very Angels were not yet in their full glory. Also we cannot deny, but that the bodies of the faithful that are dead are yet kept in death, sith that they are in corruption, from the which they shall not be 1. Cor. 15. delivered until their resurrection, that death shallbe altogether abolished. What evil is it then to pray for the dead, that their body may be delivered from corruption, and that they may have their perfect consummation in body and soul. Theophilus. I have already satisfied thee in that, if thou understandest what difference there is between the living and the dead. And although we had none other thing but that, the scripture maketh no express commasidement, that aught to suffice thee, For if it were a question To pray for the Saints which are in Paradise. to work subtly and sophistically in the word of god, I should well have as much reason to put forth, that we must make prayers in particular, for the virgin mary: for all the Prophets, Apostles, Saints, and Saints of Paradise: Yea for the Angels, and for jesus Christ himself. Hilla●ius. It should be requisite then by that account, to make out of hand a new Litany. In steed where the Pr●estes do sing, saint Michael, pray for us: A nevy Litany saint Mary mother of God, pray for us: saint Peter, pray for us: and so consequently of others, we must say, O Lord we pray and beseech thee, for saint Michael, saint Gabriel, saint Mary, saint Peter, saint Paul, ●nd ●or all the saints and saints of Paradise, that thou do put them in full ●oye, and perfect felicity, and that th●u ●aise up their bodies to eternal glory. Theophilus. If our d●e examine well the greatest part of the prayers, which the priests make for the dead, even as they are written in their Mesel and Breviaries, one shallbe constrained ●o confess that such prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of those whom they do invocate and call upon in their Letanyes, and that they be of like condition. hilarius. I have herded the Cordeliers mock at Friar Friar Christopher. Mass of Requiem for the Saints. Christofer, which was one of their order and covent, b●cause that he did sing the Mass of Requiem, for the Saints and Saints of Paradise. But if he had known how to defend his cause, it had not been without reas●n. For he might have very well alleged for his warrant, the Memento of the dead, and almost all the mass of Requiem, and other like prayers which seemed not to have ●en made to any other end, then to pray for the saints which are in rest. This ma●ster Doctor who would found out for us a new manner to pray for the dead, under ●olour of the resurrection & of the coming of jesus Christ, it came well for him, for to maintenue & uphold his cause against the other Cordeliers, which mocked him. Thomas. Of what Covent was that Friar Christofer: hilarius. Of the Covent of Rive at Geneva. Thomas, Wherefore did he sing the Mass of Requiem, for the saints? hilarius Thou oughtest to understand that he was a man so expert in Theology, and so well exercised in books, that he knew not very well how to read in his own missal and Bravery. Wherefore he could sing but the Mass of Requiem, the which with great labour he had learned by rote of heart, and it served him as a plaster for all sores, and diseases. Theophilus. He did better than all the others. For as there is but one baptism of jesus Christ One only baptism of jesus Christ. and not the baptism of saint Peter, of S. Paul, nor of any other whatsoever it be, so there is but one supper of jesus Christ. There is not of saint Frances, saint Tybaud, saint Roch, and of other like innumerable. Now if the Mass be in steed of the supper, there aught to be but one: and we aught not to say the Mass of saint Paul, saint james and of other saints, no more then of the supper and of the Baptism. Thomas. And how did he make his mass of Requiem agree with the saints? hilarius. In steed where others do name those, in whose name they do sing the Mass in their Mementoes and Oremus, he did but change the names, and name those of the saints under the title of which he aught to sing Mass, even as he should have done for one that is dead. Thomas. I do understand his practice now. He was not altogether without wit. And as much the Mass of Requiem served him all alone, as all the other did to his companion's. hilarius. All one. Thomas. But who is that doctor of whom thou speakest off? hilarius. It is Monsiour the Carolus. doubtful, which is come out of the Charbo●iere or coalhouse of Paris, I would have said from Sorbonne. Thomas. What is his name? hilarius. I would name him but that I fear I shall do him pleasure. Thomas. Pleasure? nay rather displeasure? hilarius. I do not tell scorn to speak, For thou oughtest to understand, that the man, of whom I have told thee is so much ambitious & covetous of name & fame, that it is all one to him, so that men speak of him. And I believe, that if he could obtain that by any such proves, as that of Herostratus, who burned the 〈◊〉 of Diana the Ephesian, for to make himself to Horostratus 〈◊〉 spoken off, he would do no less. And I would to God that he did no worse, than he. For Herostratus burned a temple full of Idols, which caused all Asia to commit Idolatry. But this fellow here, as the Giants did, The war of the Giants would make war against the heaven: fight against God: burn his temple, and resist the holy Ghost, and the truth that he hath known. Theophilus. He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath been: But god hath always confounded him, with all his enterprises. God have mercy on him, except he be of those which sin unto death, for whom saint john hath written that we must Sin unto death. 1. john, 5. d. 16 Ishmael. Genes. 16. c. 12, not pray for. I can give him no fit a name, then that of Ishmael, whose hand is against all men, and all men's hands against him. hilarius. It is impossible to find out a better comparison. For he could never agree with any man, among those with whom he hath lived & dwelled, whether thy were Gospelers or papists: but hath troubled them all, and they have been constrained to chase and drive him away from them, as a plague and troubler of the Church. Theophilus. Therefore the true church of jesus Christ hath been constrained to drive him out of her house, Gal. 4. d. 30 even as Sara did drive away Ishmael with his mother Agar, because that he mocked her son Isaac, in such manner Sara and Agar. Isaac & Ishmael. Genes 21. b, 9 as this fellow here always mocked the true children of God. And therefore the Church could not acknowledge him for her lawful son, but sent him out after his mother Agar. For he is more fit for the synagogue, then for the Church. hilarius. What thinkest thou, who hath induced and persuaded him to propound so many curious, vain and unprofitable questions, for to trouble that poor church of Lausanne, of which he thought to have been made bishop, The church of Lausanne. and was already by his imagination. Because that he was already old, and that he had a grey herded, I am abashed how that he could not think well that those subtle Sorbonists did not agree with that poor Church, the which was yet tender and newly planted, and but a grass. Theophilus. I do leave the judgement of the heart 3. Reg. 2. g 44 Psal. 139. b. 23 Act. 1. d. 24 unto God, who knoweth it: But as far as I can judge by his works, and by his beginning, proceeding and ending, I cannot perceive and understand but that he did it for two causes chief. first to please the Papists, Apostles of the circumcision. Gal. 5. a Phil. 3. a even as the Apostles of the circumcision went about and endeavoured themselves to please the jews, and to hold with them, for to avoid the cross and persecution, and to have their favour, and for to make the true Apostles of jesus Christ more odious unto all the world. The other is, for to show himself, and for to get the brute and report that he was a wise man, more expert and of more knowledge, than all other preachers, and that there was Vain glory none that searched out and understood the holy Scripture so profoundly as he. For he was angry that he did see others, which had put their life in danger for the glory of God, and the edifying of the Church to be of some estimation towards the good. And therefore he would invent a certain new fashion, proper unto himself alone, to the end that he should not seem that he had brought no new thing, but that he had learned some thing of others. Therefore he was ashamed to follow their way, and went about but to renew all things, for to let men to understand, that all that which others had made, was nothing worth, but that he was the great reformer of Churches, and yet nevertheless be took no care to reform the wicked manners. hilarius. I have understanded that he called the good ministers, skirmishers, who, for to advance the gospel, have Skirmi●shers. broken the first I●e or given the first onset, and which have put their heads, there where he dareth not to put his little finger. Theophilus. Also he himself hath said, in despising others, that he was not of those small skirmishers. But it was answered him to the contrary, that he availed than nothing in war, & that he was not worthy to be taken for a good soldier: For a good champion must know to do all things, and that he must be found amongst the blows and in the skirmishes and alarms, not only at the retreat, and to receive wages. He despised the simplicity of the holy Scripture, and calleth the Theology inferior and base, and would forge and invent for us a metaphysical The metaphysical Theology. Theology. hilarius. Also peradventure he would by the same as well extract the fifth essence of the holy Scriptures, as the Alchemists do of metals. At the lest, I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphysical Theology, as of the Alchemy, which hath a fair show & to be of great value, but it consumeth away into smoke. He speaketh nevertheless against the Purgatory of Priests. Wherefore I am abashed of that which I have herded spoken, that at this present he endeavoureth himself to set it up again in that poor town of Metz, the which he is go to trouble, when he understood that jesus Christ would reign there: But I greatly doubt, that the kitchen constraineth him to the same. For otherwise the har●th would be cold. But he may as well do that, as to be angry & pleased again, and so many times to change and rechaunge his coat. Theophilus. We may well make him such a monster, as Euse. de pra e●an. ●●. 14. ca 2 Eusebius Cesariensis did make of the Philosopher Archesilaus', in his books of the preparation of the Gospel, and Archesilaus'. to compare it to him, of whom he writeth in these words. They said of him, that as touching his fore parts, he was Plato, and as to the hinder parts, Pyrro, & the middle Diodorus. For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato, thorough the subtleties and sophistries of the Philosopher Diodorus, and by the subtle disputations of Pyrrho: and now saying this, by and by that, he was easily rolled and lead now here and now there, as a man not knowing any thing, and having no rest: And yet nevertheless he seemeth thorough the shadow of eloquence, that he knoweth much: & he was never in that mind, that he would say twice one thing, and that he would abide firm and steedfast in one opinion. For he esteemed not a man to be ingenious and witty, which preserved & continued in one matter and doctrine. And therefore he was called a caviller, sophister and troubler, which known nothing, and would not that others should perceive any thing. He troubled every one thorough his sophistries, & was as the serpent called Hydra. Hydra, which hath seven heads: But he cutteth them off with his own sword, speaking against & gainsaying his own Doctrine, denying that which he hath affirmed, and destroying that which he before hath builded. hilarius. It is impossible to paint him out better. For Geryon. he is as a Geryon with three bodies. He is a Papist, an Evangelist and a Lutherian. He is a Sophister and a Sorbonist, and yet he would be accounted for a faithful and a Christian, and holdeth himself neither to the one nor yet to the other. Hydra had never so many heads, as he hath of opinions contrary the one to the other, and he needed none other Hercules for to cut them off, than himself. For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to speak, as unto the wicked spirits, is a Hercules sufficient Hercules. enough for to vanquish the false doctrine, that he now maintaineth. Theophilus. By the same thou mayst know the study Mat. 8. b. 14. Ma●. 1. c. 29 of Satan, and how many ways he transfigureth himself into an Angel of light: and what is the nature of the 2. Cor. 11. d. 1● false Prophets. God by all his Prophets & Apostles hath commended to us the faith in him, and the love towards A sign for to judge the false and true Prophets. the living, without making any mention that we should have care of the dead. The Devil to the contrary, by his false Prophets and Apostles, endeavoureth himself with all his power, to draw us from the faith, unto vain Ceremonies, and from the care that we aught to have of the living and of the poor members of JESUS CHRIST, which with us do suffer want and indigence, for to make us stay after the dead. They bring them meat and drink, and suffer the poor Christian brethren which are round about them to dye for hunger. This miserable Doctor, perceiving that he could not A new transfiguration of Satan. there where he was, maintain the Purgatory of the Priests, and their broiling of souls, be would set up a new Purgatory for the body. But when he perceived that he could not bring it about, he is returned to carry a coal to the same Purgatory for the body. of the Priests, for to heat it again. Wherein he manifestly declareth, what faith and conscience he hath, & how much one aught to trust to his doctrine. hilarius. Me thinketh, that he should have no less appearance, to build a Purgatory for the body, than the Priests to have builded one for the souls. For if there be any reason, wherefore the souls aught to suffer for their sins, after that man is dead, me thinketh that the body aught not to be quit and free, but that he hath more merited it, because that he was the occasion thorough his flesh, and the instrument for to make the soulé to sin. Wherefore if you think Eusebius, that God should be unjust, as thou hast alleged, if he do not punish the souls of the sinners in Purgatory, he should be no less, if he do not punish the bodies in like manner, which have been always companions & instruments to the souls, in all the sins that they have committed. And therefore God will not only punish the souls of the reprobate in hell fire, but the bodies also: even as be will glorify the elect in body and soul, in the resurrection of the Iustes. Theophilus. Also this good Doctor would give us to understand, sithence that he hath entered into that dreaming, that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead, were for the bodies, and for their resurrection, and not for the souls: and condemneth the Priests and their Purgatory, and be made no doubt to say, that we must pray for the Saints: for Saint Peter, S. Paul, and the others, in such sense as he understandeth, even as it hath been touched. Thomas, I do understand well of whom you speak. I remember, that at the disputation which was held at Lausanne, he spoke clearly, not only against the Purgatory of Priests, but also against the transubstantion and corporal presence of jesus Christ in the host. Theophilus. It is true, but in the mean time, thou takest no heed of the subtlety of Satan, and by what means he would be served of that Sorbonist doctors. Because that Satan did see those errors to be already too much uncovered and opened, & that he had no more hope to uphold them, chiefly in those Churches here abouts, he hath choose this instrument, for to set forth that opinion, the which could not serve to any edification, but for to trouble the Church, chief in this time now, that the opinions of men are so diverse, For how goodly a reason soever he can allege, notwithstanding that he condemneth openly the Purgatory of the Priests, and their suffrages for the dead, yet nevertheless, sith that he putteth forth that proposition: we must pray for the dead: It were impossible, but that in every point, it should he evil spoken A troublesome doctrine. off and offensive. For the Idolaters and superstitions, which were yet in their old error, touching that matter, do draw that proposition to their advantage, to the confirmation of their Purgatory, and care not for all his other reasons and sophistries, the which the most part cannot understand, others will not. It is mough for them that they can say: Monsieur the Doctor hath preached, that we must pray for the dead. They do arm themselves with that proposition, against the truth, as with a buckler, and do condemn more boldly the wholesome doctrine. The other poor simple people, which have already some knowledwe of the abuses, were not also without being troubled, fearing to have been evil taught. For all could not easily comprehend those sophistical subtleties, but do abide in perplexity. Notwithstanding that that dream which he did put forth, was not new: It hath already at an other time been put forth by others, the which yet nevertheless they have not followed. Those which were best instructed and most firm in the doctrine of the Gospel, although that they had their spirits sharp enough for to comprehend that which they said, yet they were not out of danger. For sith that this proposition abideth and continneth: we must pray for the dead: And this here, the Church hath always duly p●ayde for them that they should be delivered from death: it was much to be feared, that by succession of time, but that they should fall again to the first error, and that the Devil which was driven away, would return again with seven other wicked spirits, worse than the first. For after that the understanding of man hath been corrupted thorough some false opinion, he is easy to fall again, and to withdraw from Mat. 12. d. 44. his purpose all that which approacheth any thing at all. hilarius. I doubt not, but that the same was the mark, to which Satan pretended: the which he hath yet better declared, when be induced and persuaded that poor man to return again, as the dog, to eat that which he had vomited, and to bay and ●arke against the ministers of the truth, enforcing and endeavouring himself to re-edify the errors and heresies, which he had before condemned and destroyed. Theophilus. It is a great deal better that he declared himself what he was, then to devil in the Church of jesus Christ for to trouble it, and to end that that he hath taken in hand. For in steed, whereas before they did but sing Mass for the dead, whom they presumed to be detained and kept in purgatory, they must also sing Mass and offer for the Saints which are in Paradise, according to his theology. For it should have been as easy to give colour unto such Masses, as the scholastical Doctors do give unto those which they do sing in the name of young children, which are dead in their innocency, immediately after their baptism. Masses for the young children Thomas. What need have they? For I believe that they will not deny, but that they account them for saved. Theophilus. They confess that they are in Paradise? Tho. dist. 12. li. 4. deffc. enche. Reisersp. de. mor. v●rt. Sermo dom. ●. aduent. and that they have no need to do it for their salvation: But they affirm that it is good yet neverthelsse to sing Mass for them, for to signify & witness that they are of the Church, & members of his mystical body. And so by that means, the Priests cannot fail to get money of every side, both of the old and young: or under the title of Purgatory, or of the communion of the Church, or of the resurrection of the body, or of the consummation of the eternal felicity. In so doing, they must yet at the end come to pray for jesus Christ, and to sing masses for him, as for his members, until such time as his kingdom he fully consummated and ended, and that he hath put all his enemies under his footstool. Thomas, Now I have herded all your matters and well considered of them, I know that we have been marvelously abused, Wherefore from henceforth I remit and forgive the Priests, I will stay myself but only to the pure word of God. As touching my voyage, I am come back again. I have seen that which I desired to know. I think that Eusebius is as much pressed and overcome as I, and that he hath no more greater harneys nor weapons for to defend his purgatory nor his Limbs, Eusebius. It is most certain that I have my spirit much troubled with so many matters, and not without cause. But nevertheless I have not yet all disployed and showed forth my arguments & reasons. You have now rob me of the place which I have propounded unto you of the book of the Maccabees, under the title that it was apocrypha: But those that I will propound unto you now, shallbe taken out of books so Autentickes and Canonical, that you can by no means reject them. And if you can show by evident reasons, that I do not allege them to the purpose, and that they do serve me nothing at all for to prove my intention, I will confess myself vanquished, and will give you my hand for to be of your side. hilarius, What pretendest thou to maintain by them, either the Limb of the young children, and the baptism of women: or the Limb of the ancient fathers: or the Purgatory? For Theophilus hath overthrown this day all that. Eusebius. Thou shalt understand it, when thou shalt hear it. But at this time we have sufficiently enough discussed of the matters at one time, and there remains yet enough for a good while. Yet nevertheless I do hope that we shall see the end. Thomas. I desire the same very much, and that we may agree as soon as shallbe possible, that we may all abide and continued of one good resolution. Theophilus. God give us his grace, as I hope he will. THE SUM OF THE SIXT and last Dialogue. IN this latter dialogue Eusebius putteth forth the places of the holy scripture, the which they allege commonly for the defence and confirmation of purgatory: to the which Theophilus answereth, and expoundeth them after the true sense of the scripture: and confuteth the false interpretations of the Sophisters: and declareth many good points and places of the holy scripture. It shallbe also entreated of the power of the keys: and how the Pope and his would stretch them even to the other world. It shallbe in like manner spoken, of the Pope's power and deite: of ●ubile, and of the virtue of the bull, pardons and indulgences. Afterwards shallbe touched the opinion of them which think that there shallbe preaching in the other world: And a manifestation of jesus Christ to salvation, for such as have not known him in this world. Whereupon shallbe entreated the place of Saint Peter, touching the preaching of jesus Christ unto the dead, & to the spirits that were detained in prison: & for the end & conclusion of all those matters, the funerals of purgatory shall be celebrated, and he shallbe buried. For that cause this dialogue is called, the Requiescant in pace of purgatory. For he is dead and buried. THE SIXT DIALOGUE WHICH is called the Requiescant in pace, of purgatory. THOMAS, Although friend Eusebius, thou hast resisted Theophilus and Hilary as much as thou canst, and that thou hast fought valiantly, yet nevertheless thou couldst not so virtuously defend thyself, but that the forward, the wings and the horns of thy army, and almost all the whole host is discomfyted and overcome: there rests no more now but the arrierewarde. If it defend itself no valyentlyer, and that it be no better armed then the others, thou shalt carry no good news to the Pope of that combat, and thou shalt give him no great occasion to receive thee among his Captains, and to reward thee richly. Eusebius. I do not fight for the Pope, but for the truth. It is to me all one who d'ye gain or win the battle, so that the victory abideth with the truth, and that jesus do reign in his Church. Theophilus. I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath given unto thee, and that thou art not like unto a heap and company of ambitious and glorious men, who what so ever evil cause that they have, will never confess themselves overcome and vanquished, but esteem their glory more dearer than the same of jesus Christ. Eusebius. It is very true that at the beginning I was much offended with your words. But when I considered that which I have heard of you, I knew not well to which side to turn. You have already very much overcome and failed me, nevertheless I have yet many places of the holy Scriptures, which hold me in suspens, and leave me in a great scruple and doubt in my conscience, until such time as thou hast showed me by lively & evident reasons, that I must understand them otherwise then they have been expounded unto me: or else you shall be constrained to change your matter, and to deny and unsay all that you have said even until this present time. hilarius. Propound them all by order, and Theophilus will address & guide thee to the true understanding. Eusebius. For to keep the better order, I will begin by the old testament, and afterwards will follow The disposition of this dialogue the new, after the order by which the books of the same are disposed and set, alleging out of every one of them the points which may serve to my matters. I will put forth unto thee that which Thoby commanded his Thob. 4. d 18. son, saying: Set thy bread and wine upon the burial of the righteous. But thou will't answer unto me, that that book is apocrypha, or only Ecclesiastical, and not The book of Thobie. Canonical, as thou hast already done of the same of the Maccabees. Theophilus. Truly I may answer thee so. But although it were Canonical, where too would it serve for thy matter? Eusebius. Very well, following the interpretation of Eccius, which expoundeth it of the Almoses for to refresh The exposition of the place of Thoby. the poor, that they should pray unto God for the salvation of the dead. Theophilus. He that would follow the expositions of Eccius, there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred, for to make it serve to the popish tyranny. In the book of Thoby, & in that place there, there is no mention made of praying for the dead. And although those words preceded thereunto, he aught rather to have said: Set thy bread upon the burial of the sinner, then upon that of the righteous. For the sinners shall have more need of such prayers, than the righteous. But he says altogether contrary. For he addeth: eat and drink not with the sinners and wicked: The which is better expressed by the Greek, saying: Set thy bread upon the burial of the righteous, and give it not unto sinners. Wherefore it is most likest to be true, sith that before he hath spoken of Almoses, that he recommendeth by those words, chiefly the righteous and faithful, even as saint Paul, above all other recommendeth those of the household of faith. Now there are many manners and ways to bestow one's bread and wine upon the burials of the righteous: The first is 〈…〉 stow one's bread & wine upon the burtial of the righteous Thob●●●●● in burying them honestly, as Thoby did, without sparing that which was there unto needful and requisite. For the Hebrews by the bread, wine and water, do understand all the things necessary unto man, and unto man's life. The other is, when we do help our brethren, & secure so their necessities: that they die not for want of victuals, nor go down to the grave without being buried. If we do otherwise, we kill them, when we f●●de them not, and that they do dye through our default. The third is when we comfort thorough Almoses the children and friends of the dead. Then we shed forth our bread and wine upon their burials, behold the holy water that they desire. And it is a great deal better to do after that sort, then to play the glutton with the gluttons, drunkards and wicked. But the manner of speech is somewhat obscure, because that the book, notwithstanding that it was written in Greek, yet nevertheless it keepeth the phrases and manners of the Hebrew speech. hilarius. He that will then follow the counsel of Thoby, must no more banquet and feast the Priests, sith The place of Thoby 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉. that he forbiddeth to give his bread and wine unto sinners and the wicked. For there is not a people upon the earth, of a more execrable life, nor which do more abuse the goods which GOD hath given unto man: Among whom one may well account and number Eccius for one of the principalest Captains of God Bacchus. For he was very angry, that day he was not drunken in. Wherefore it is no marvel, if he would maintain the spit and the frying-pan. But yet no veil 〈◊〉 although he and all such as he is would press and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any exposition confirmable and agreeable to the word of God, it should have had more colour for to allow the ancient custom which the Panyms had to carry bread upon the burials and to another p●ace taken out of the psalm, 66 power thereon wine, even as already hath been spoken, then for to prove the banquets of the priests, and the prayers for the dead. Nevertheless we are well assured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but have had regard not to allow such superstitious. Eusebius. Let us leave of Eccius and the pristes, and answer me unto that which is written in the book of the Psalms: We have passed thorough the fire and water, and thou hast drawn us out, and set us in joy and comfort. How understandest thou that place? The which many Theologians do expound it of the fire of purgatory, by the which the souls must first pass, for to be purged, before that they can enter into the celestial rest. To which agreeth very well that which saint Paul The place of the 1. Cor, 3. c. 11 writeth to the Corinthians, saying: For other foundation can no man ●ay, then that which is laid, which is jesus Christ. And if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, timber, hay or stubble, every man's work shall appear. For the day shall declare it, and it shallbe showed in fire: And the fire shall try every man's work what it is. If any man's work that he hath built upon, bide, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, be shall suffer loss, but he shallbe safe himself: nevertheless yet as it were thorough fire. What fire can we here understand then that of purgatory, which purgeth? wherefore one is saved by the same. The which we cannot understand of the same of hell, from which none can be delivered, nor consequently saved. What aunswerest thou to that? I do here break a little the order that I had thought to have kept, & do leap from the Psalter unto the Epistles of saint Paul: But it is b●cause that the matters are like, and that the one of the points may the better be discussed and opened with the other. For we cannot understand that fire, thorough which one goeth and passeth, but of the same of which saint Paul speaketh by the which one is saved. For none can pass from the same of hell, but it keepeth and holdeth fast all that that cometh to it. Declare and expound unto me these two places, and afterwards I will go strait way to the new Testament, and will keep order as I have said. Theophilus. As touching the place of the Psalms, Answer to the place of the Psalms. it is most clear, that in that Psalm the Prophet speaketh of the tyranny and oppression, and of the great afflictions and adversities which the people of god have suffered, from which God hath delivered them. And the better to comprehend all in a sum, the great evils and dangers, in which that people hath been drowned and plunged, he speaketh it in the person of him: we are come unto the fire and water, and thou hast led us by them. He useth commonly the comparison of the fire Esai●. 4. ● 4. ●ere 49. ● 27 1. Pet. 1. b 7. and water, because that there is nothing which sooner will kill & dispatch a man, than the fire and water, when they have once power over him. And therefore they are many times taken in the holy scriptures, for the temptations persecutions, passions, dangers deaths, and judgement of God, by the which all is examined, proved and tried as by the fire and water, and there is none that can escape, if the Lord do not deliver and draw him from it, as it is here spoken afterwards. As touching 1. Cor. 3 ●●●. The exposition of the place of the Corrithians the place of Saint Paul, he pretended an other thing, then to the fire of Purgatory, as it is easy to know by his own words. Wherefore I do make thee thy own judge of the cause, & I demand of thee first, whether thou art of an opinion, that it behoveth that all the holy Prophets, Apostles and Martyrs, do pass by or thorough that fire of Purgatory? Eusebius. Noe. hilarius, Those which allege that place for to prove the Purgatory, dare not to confess that. For they magnify and extol so much the merits of Saints, that they have made a treasure in their Church, of those which they have of The treasure of the Church. superaboundance, the which they do vaunt themselves to distribute unto others. Theophilus. Nevertheless the Apostle speaketh in that place of the principalest members of the church, to wit, of the Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists, Doctors, Preachers, and consequently of all those which do edify by their doctrine, whom he calleth masons and builders. He says that every one's work shall pass by the fire, and that the workman also shallbe examined by the same. Wherefore, either you shall be constrained to confess that that fire cannot be understanded of the same of purgatory, or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to pass by the same, for to prove & try his work, sith that he excepteth none. But says plainly, that every man's shallbe tried by the fire: The which thing saint Augustine was not ignorant off, but useth the same reason, De civi. dei. li. 21. ca 26. Trac. defid. & oper. c. 16. Ench. ca 68 against those which would maintain by those words of the Apostle, that those which believe in jesus Christ, shallbe all saved, how wicked a life so ever they have lived, and builded upon the foundation, which is jesus Christ, provided that they had not altogether abandoned and forsaken the foundation. He taketh not that fire, for that of Purgatory: But for the tribulations, adversities, and persecutions of this world. Although that some will say, that the like is done yet in the other world, he says that he will not repunge their opinion: the which as he says may be true. But yet nevertheless he dareth not to affirm it, but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of Theophila. in 1. Cor. 3. this world here. Theophilacte, who almost in all his commentaries hath followed Chrisostome, notwithstanding that he is not of the most ancients, and that he hath written sithence that the church hath been very much marred and spoiled, and that already that fire of purgatory was very much kindled, yet nevertheless he made here no mention at all, not of one only syllable: But taketh that fire for the same of Hell: saying, that the sinner shallbe saved: that is to say, that he shallbe reserved whole and entire, for to burn in the fire and to be punished perpetually. But for to come to the true and more clear understanding of those words, Saint Paul means here briesely, that all building, all doctrine, and works builded and invented without the word of God, shall turn into smoke and vanish away altogether, without being able to abide and continued firm, notwithstanding that all that shallbe builded upon the true foundation, which is Christ, who cannot bear up any building, if it be not pure gold, silver, pearls and precious stones, taken from his word, which is more pure Psal. 19 c. 11 than the gold and silver fined and tried seven times. And therefore the Apostle useth here a metaphor, translation, and comparison. For even as he compareth the pure doctrine A comparison of the d●●●ne and hum●●ne doctrine. of the gospel to the gold, silver & precious stones, which cannot be consumed by the fire, but are by the same tried and do appear more fair and clean: So he compareth the doctrines dreamt and invented by the brain of man, unto wood, hay, chaff and stubble, and by good right. For even as those things cannot abide the fire but are consumed and perished assoon as they feel it, so in like manner shall men's doctrines perish, and cannot abide and continue firm, when they shall come to the touchstone. It happeneth unto us oftentimes that we delight and please ourselves in our own works, and we think that we have made a fair and a goodly piece of work. But we must bring it to the touchstone: the which shall not be after our own judgement, but according to the same of GOD, who is the judge of us and of our works. Therefore says he, that the day shall declare it, and that the fire shall try what every man's work shall be. He calleth the day of the Lord, The day of the Lord all times, in which he manifes●eth his presence unto men, by any manner of ways: the which he doth chiefly by the manifestation of his truth, and revelation of his Gospel. By the fire, although that in the Scripture it be many The fire. times taken, for the temptations and tribulations, yet nevertheless it agreeth best here to the sense & meaning of the Apostle, to take the fire for the towchstone which proceedeth of the holy Ghost, which is the true fire, which consumeth all doctrine invented by men, the which cannot abide the spiritual towchstone but vanisheth away assoon as one proveth the spirits, whether they be of God or not. as much happeneth of all the works, proceeding of such doctrine, the which cannot bear the judgement of God. But to the contrary, it happeneth to the ● Pet, ●, b. 7 truth as to the faith, the which even as the gold, becometh more fairer, and showeth itself more pure, when it is tried and examined in that furnayce, and approacheth nearer of that spiritual judgement. And therefore when the word of the Lord is manifest by the virtue of the holy Ghost, than all things are revealed. We shall know what work we have made: whether it hath any ●ault in it or not: and whether we have lost our time: or whether we be worthy of a reward. If we have not builded a matter agreeing to the foundation, when the truth & the judgement of the spirit of god presseth our conscience, or that the temptations also and the afflictions do compass us round about, we are compelled to condemn our work, and we shall prove that that which we esteem to be of some weight and importance, is nothing at all, and that in which we put our hope and trust, cannot serve us, neither confirm nor assure our consciences, Eusebius. But how are we saved by the fire, if our works are lost, and by the same consumed? Theophilus. The Apostle declareth it sufficiently himself, To be saved by the sire. if we do mark of what people he speaketh. He speaketh not of Heretics, Apostates, seducers and false Prophets, which teach false doctrine, contrary to the faith, and which are separated from jesus Christ and from his body, which is the Church, by their infidelity and perversity. But he speaketh of the Masons and builders of the Church, that is to say, of evangelical Pastors and Ministers, which have not forsaken the foundation, nor the head, which Col, 1. c. 18. &. ●, b. 10. ●●hc. 1. d. 22 is jesus Christ, that is to say, which have not turned themselves from the principal points and articles of the Christian religion, and from the says in jesus Christ, and from things necessary to salvation: But have mingled some of their inventions and traditions amongst the doctrine of the Gospel: and have failed in some little and small things which are not very dangerous. Those then to whom such things shall happen: shall receive damage and loss: For their wor●e, and that which they have added to it of there's shall perish: and shall have no more profit, then if they were altogether dispossessed of them: But they shall have rather shame and confusion for them. Yet nevertheless they shall be saved, but as by the fire: not their fault their errors and ignorance and their buildings, builded without the word of God, may be agreeable to God: But because of the foundation which they have held and kept, and of the head of which they remain members, and of the faith which abideth in them, shall be purged and delivered from error and ignorance by that fire of the holy Ghost, with which they shall be illuminated. But yet nevertheless herein, men will liken The 〈◊〉 of foolish builders. him unto a foolish builder, which shall build upon a good and sure foundation of stone and a rock, a house or building of wood, ●●ye, chaff and stubble, which think to have made a goodly piece of work, and knows not his fault until that he seeth that the fire bathe taken and consumed it altogether. Then he knoweth by experience, that be hath lost his time, and the cost and expenses that he hath bestowed about it; and that be is forced to begin his building a new, ●● though he had never put his hand unto it, saving that th● shame and the loss abideth with him. We call ourselves all Christians, and do confess that there is but one foundation and one head, jesus Christ, But although that in that behalf we do all agree, yet nevertheless when they come to build upon that foundation, all shall not be found good Masons. For many will be Masters, before they have been good scholars and apprentices: and will not follow the rule and the instruction of the master Masons, well expert and cunning in their mystery and occupation, but thinking to make some fairer thing, do build after their own fantasy. They do preach or hear the Gospel, and will serve god after their affection, and as they think good: And thinking to make some fair piece of work they mar it altogether. But they do not know it by and by, until such time as the fire of the Gospel and of the spirit of God, which is the true judge, and the truth revealed unto men destroyeth all the goodly outward appearance, and maketh it to be seen such as it is, and not such as it appeareth outward: As we see by experience, in the Moonkish sects, and in many other ceremonies, superstitions, idolatries, and works invented of men, in which we do glory and boast ourselves, and think that we have done mough for to merit four Paradises, and for to make God to be in our debt. But when the Gospel is purely preached which beateth down all error, all vain superstition and man's trust, than we shall know our fault, and be ashamed of that of which we think to be much esteemed. Or when God sendeth unto us some great affliction temptation and adversity, that his judgement presseth us, that he examineth and prourth our works, as the fire proveth and trieth the gold in the furnayce. Then we shall know our hypocrisy, folly, vanity, and false religion, the which we do not think but to be pure godliness and righteousness: And as the holy Apostle, esteeming as dung all that which before we esteemed as gold. But forasmuch as we have Philip. 3. b. 8 not renounced and forsaken jesus Christ, nor the faith which we have in him, we are not altogether lost, thorough the fault that we have committed, but it happened unto us, even so as unto him which hath escaped the fire. But he hath yet nevertholesse lost his house, and all that which was in it, because that it was not builded with good stuff: and could save but his body all naked his life. Wherefore he must build it altogether new: dost thou not think Eusebius, that this exposition agreeth better to the sense and meaning of the Apostle, then that of your Doctors which would turn and wrist it, to their sense and understanding, against the same of the spirit of God, and of Saint Paul, and of the ancient Doctors, which have never expounded it of the fire of Purgatory, but almost all of them to the sense as I have expounded it, chief Ambro. in 1. Cor. 3. The custom of the false and tru● doctors Saint Ambrose. I cannot be too much abashed of the manner of doing of those which will uphold man's traditions. When we will propone any thing in the Church of jesus Christ, for a doctrine of salvation and an article of faith, we aught first of all diligently to examine, whether that which we would put forth, hath any certain and sure foundation in the word of God. If we found that it is commanded of God and comprised in the holy scriptures, we may and aught boldly to propound and affirm it. On the contrary, if the Scripture doth make no mention of it, it is not lawful only to open the mouth, for to speak one word, and for to propound for certain a thing uncertain. For cursed is the man, which putteth forth for a sure doctrine, a thing, of which he himself is not certain, and of which he cannot say with the Prophet and the holy Psal. 116, b. 11 2. Cor. 4. c 13 Apostle: I have believed it and therefore I spoke it. For we aught to beware and keep ourselves, as from death, to teach unto others, to believe and to do that, which we ourselves believe not, and of which we are not certain. Now it is impossible to be assured and certain of such things, then by the word of god the which we aught to follow in all things. But I see clean contrary in those which have taught men's traditions, in steed of the word of God. For in steed to take counsel of it, before they do institute any thing, they have first propounded and persuaded the people, that which cometh in their out being much advised, whether God hath commanded or forbidden it. It sufficeth them so that they have some show and appearance. And when they perceive that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God, then fearing to be overcome and condemned, they seek if they can find any thing in the Scripture for to prove their intent: the which they aught to have done before they put though thing forth. But sithence that they have once ordained and published it, and have perceived and felt the profit, it grieveth them sore to recant and gainsay it. And therefore they do all their endeavours, for to find in the Scripture some colour, for to beautify and show forth their work: And there is nothing, so that it hath any appearance at all, but that they draw it violently, deprave and mar it, for to make it serve to their purpose. hilarius. They do as those which do fight together, which take and catch all that cometh to their hands, for to defend them with, be it sword, lance, staff fork, pole, fire brand, stones, dung, mire, dust, ashes, and all that which they can catch or come by, without regarding any thing but to defend themselves and hurt their enemy. For that is all one unto them, so that they escape, ● carry away the victory. These Theologians Proue●b●. Rogula Lesbian. Arist. ●●. ● mora. Eras. chil. do make me to remember the old pronerbe, of the rule Lesbian, the which was of Lead: Wherefore the Masons of Lesbian boowed it as they would. And in steed that they aught to measure and compass their work by the same, and the stones which they hewed and the walls which they builded, and to correct and amend them if they were not right & well compassed, they did clean contrary. For they did bend & make crooked their rule for to make it to agree with their work, where they aught to make the work to agree to the same. And so it obeyed them in all things. And whereas they should correct and amend their work by the rule, they corrected and amended the rule by their work. Even so are many of the laws, the which one maketh them to agree to the manners, whereas by them they aught to be corrected, & not the laws by man's affections. Theophilus. There is not a thing the which at this day they do more abuse in that sort, than the holy Scriptures. There is not a rule more firm, more surer and certain, and yet nevertheless the false Doctors to all purposes do turn and wrist it to their sense and understanding, as we do see by experience in that matter of purgatory. For sithence that once that error was brought into the Church of God, as soon as was found in the holy Scripture one word that made mention of fire, they have by and by drawn and applied it to their purpose, and have taken it for a certain proof of purgatory, without having regard, that the fire in the same is taken more than in a thousand places, as well in the old as new Testament, in so many diverse significations, chiefly in the psalms, Esay, jeremy, and in the other Prophetical and Apostolical Scriptures, of which it is not now need to bring forth the examples. hilarius. Thou hast heard a sufficient declaration of that place, of which thou oughtest to content thyself Eusebius, and to keep thyself from following the example of your Doctors, which do draw and wrest the holy Scriptures, for to make them sing what it pleaseth them, more cruelly than ● Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the rack and on the gallows. Eusebius. They do say the like of you. hilarius. But it is ea●●ly to judge unto whom that office agreeth best. Eusebius. And how understandest thou this place of Saint Matthew? where he saith: Agree with thy adversary The place o● Ma●. ●, ●●, ●5. quickly, whilst thou art in the way with him, lest th● noversary deliver thee to the judge, & the judge deliver thee to the Minister, & then thou be cast in prison. Verily I say unto thee: thou shalt not come out thence till thou have paid the uttermost farthing. What other prison may we understand here, but the same of Purgatory? For from that same of hell there is never no hope to come forth. But sith that it is here spoken of the coming forth, after they have wholly and fully satisfied, we cannot doubt, but that the same prison is purgatory, in which the souls are detained and kept in pains, until they have fully satisfied for all their sins. Theophilus. Sigh that thou expoundest the prison in such sort, I demand of thee, who is the judge, of whom is here made men●ion off? Eusebius. It is God. Theophilus. And who is the adverse party? Eusebius. The Devil. Theophilus. And who is The sergeant of Purgatory, the Sergeant or Minister? Eusebius. The Angel. Theophilus. Thou will't then say that the Angels do conduct and lead, the souls into purgatory, to the place of pains and torment's? Eusebius. Who then? the Devils? Shall it be reasonable, that the faithful should be put into the hand of the devil, for to he subject unto him whom they have vanquished and overcome? and punished? by him over whom they have triumphed? Theophilus. They have not yet well triumphed, if they be yet so detained and kept in sins, that for them they must be kept in a fire, altogether like unto that same of hell, for the time that they are there. Me thinks that that office should be more decent and meet for the Devils, then for the Angels. For it is not like to be true, that the Angels should be the hangmen of the souls of the faithful, and that they should take pleasure to imprison and torment so cruelly their neighbours and brethren, which are Citizens of Heaven with them. I have read in the holy Scriptures, that the Angels carried the soul of Lazarus into the bosom L●●. 16. b. hundred of Abraham, into a place of joy and rest, and that they have delivered Saint Peter and the Apostles out of prison: But I have never read that they have lead them Act, ●● b. 7 ●eon. de ●tin. se●●. d●●●or. Aut Flo●e●●ia Sum. into prison, nor into places of torments, nor that they did lead the rich man into hell. For as much as your Doctors confess that the Devils do hold themselves next to the souls of those which are purged in Purgatory, and do accompany them, for to rejoice themselves of their torments and to mock them of the same: They may best gi●e that office unto them, and to exempt and omit the Angels. But what appearance hath it with thy exposition? If the Du●el, or the sin aught here to be understanded for our adverse party, it followeth then that jesus Christ commandeth us to agree and to be at one with the devil and sin. But how can we be agreed with him and with God? Furthermore, he would that that same agreement should be done whilst that one is in the way, that is to say, in this life. For after that man is dead, he is out of the way. It must then follow that he must make here his good deeds, before he do dye, for to avoid that prison of purgatory. And the same shall be for to confirm the proverb of the Priests, saying: that better is the candle that goeth before, then that Proverb The candle before. that cometh behind? Eusebius. How will't thou interpret that place? hilarius. Sigh that there is an allegory, and that your Doctors do play so with the word of God, I will also play and jest with them. First, although there were none other reason, but that you will hear build the Purgatory upon an allegory, it is sufficient enough, for to overthrow and pull down all your foundation. For there is not a Theologian The use of allegories. which confesseth not but that the Allegories are not sufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine, whatsoever it be, if it have none other foundation, more clearer and more plain in the word of God: but is more proper and fit for to beautify and set out the matters, to delight and move the auditors and hearers, then for to prove and confirm it. For one may expound them after diverse manners, according to the dexterity and wit of him which declareth them. And therefore if I would jest and play with the word of GOD, as your Doctors do. I might allegorise Exposition allegorical. and declare that place, expounding the judge for the Pope, which is the God Pluto. The adversaria for the Priests. For they do quarrel with us always for to get money from us, and we can never be at one, and agreed with them, except they have all, and that they have eaten us quick and dead. The Sergeant that is the Angel and the God Mercury. For according to the Poetical Merc●●y. Theology, he had wings and ●aryed the souls to hell, and was the God of gain, of deceits & larc●nyes as already hath been touched. Now who leadeth the souls into Purgatory, but that S●rgeaunt here of God Pluto? As the cause of the gain and hope of the money and ransom which our merchants and adverse parties do look for? They would gladly that we should agree with them whilst that we are in the way, in this present life: and that we should distribute unto them all our goods, without leaving any thing, neither to our children, parents, nor friends. I am very certain, that after that we have given them all, and that there is no more hope to get any more ransom of us, that there shall be no more prison for us, nor Sergeaunts for to lead us thither. Dost thou think Eusebius, that my interpretation is not as good as thy? I am well assured, that as to the sense and meaning of the words of jesus Christ, neither the one nor the other approacheth nigh unto it, and less thy then mine: but according to your Theology, mine is more sufferable and more true. Thomas. Thou will't then say, that the one and the other are nothing worth: and therefore Theophilus, expound unto us the true sense and meaning of jesus Christ. Theophilus. We must well note and mark that which hilarius hath said of Allegories. How much difference there is between thi● here of jesus Christ, and those which the expositors do make commonly. For in these words The sense of the words of ● jesus Christ. of jesus Christ, there i● an example & a comparison wrapped in with an Allegory. For jesus Christ would not here declare any other thing, but into what dangers & inconveniences those do put themselves, which had rather to go to the ●igour of right then to agree friendly with the adverse party, before they do come to judgement: to that end that he doth the better incitate and stir forward men unto amity and brotherly reconcilyation, of which he speaketh in this place. After the same fort doth Saint Bretherly re 〈◊〉 Ch●●s●●● M●. 5. Homil. 16. Chrisostome expound it, without making any mention of Purgatory, and he alloweth not those which do understand by the adverse party the devil, but interpreteth that place o●●lees an● process. Now our Lord jesus the better to move the hearers to brotherly reconc●lyation, taketh example upon the pleaders, as if he should say: If thy adverse party do bring thee into judgement, th●● canst do no better for thy honour and profit, then to agree with him, before thou prove and try the rigour of right. For if thou agree friendly with the party, he may show thee some favour and forgive thee the deboe, and thou shalt avoid the dishonour, shame, and the cost●s, which is bestowed upon the plaints. On the contrary if thou do not agree, thou canst not so well avoid the payment: but the judge shall know it, and thou shal● be condemned and compelled to pay to the uttermost all the debt, without rebating one farthing, even as those which for debt are detained and kept in prison, until the end of th● payment. Behold the example and the similitude which jesus Christ propounded unto us, for to bring us to reconcilyation. But he declareth not amply that which he would have us to understand by the same: but it sundseth him to have set us in the way, and he hath opened unto us the understanding of that which he would teach us, which availeth as much as if he had said: Whilst that thou art yet alive and that thou hast time, return in grace, and agreed with thy adversary, that is to say with thy brother and neighbour, whom thou hast offended, and to whom thou art bond. For we are debtor, unto all thos● to whom we have done injury and wrong. And therefore let us not suffer that the blood of our brother should demand vengeance, and deliver us into the hand of the judge. Le●te us not tarry until we be cyred and that the day be assigned unto us, for to appear in his judgement: But let us con●●rre our controversies friendly the one with the other, whilst he giveth us leisure, and he himself as a rightful arbitrator exhorteth us to do it. For be we assured that if we do it not, after that he shall tarry long time, he himself will set us agreed. But that shall be to the great cost and expenses and to the great hurt and shame of him in whom he shall find the wrong, and who shall be the cause of the controversy, and of the let and hindrance which shall be in the agreement. For he aught to be assured that his malice and obstination shall be unto him dear sold, and that he shall not be abated one only farthing: for if he be condemned to satisfy to the righteousness of God, even to the uttermost penny, there is no more hope of health and salvation. For sith that the sentence is once given, and that man is out of this mortal life, there is no more time to demand and ask agreement. On the other side, it is impossible that man can ever have wherewith to satisfy God, sith that thorough his infidelity & peruer●●tie he hath made the satisfaction of jesus Christ unprofitable for himself. It followeth then necessarily y● that prison is not purgatory, but hell, which hath The prison. no issue, nor place of ransom. Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory. And although it be said that man shall not come out of that prison, until that he hath paid the uttermost farthing, we must not therefore conclude that he shall come out at any time, but rather that he shall never come out. For that manner of Do●●●. speaking is very common in the Scripture, and aught to be understanded as the which is written of the Raven which No did send out, which returned not again: until that Genes. ●, b. ●. the waters were dried up. It followeth not therefore that he returned again at any time afterwards. And Saint Augustine expoundeth that same place, eue● as that which is written by that same evangelist, speaking of joseph, saying, that he known not the Virgin Mary, Math. ●. d 25 until she had brought forth her first begotten son. We must not conclude by these words, with Hel●●dius, that he hath known her afterwards. For he means none other Helindius. thing, but that he known her not, when she ●●re jesus Christ. But it followeth not therefore that he hath known her afterwards: Or otherwise he should be forced to conclude, that jesus Christ shall reign no more, after that he shall have put all his enemies under his feet, therefore it is written, that the Lord hath said unto him: Sit thou on my right hand, until I put all thy enemies thy footstool. Psa. ●●●. ●●. Thou dost then see that the exposition of Saint Augustine, overthroweth yours. And that which I say of that place, must be also understanded of that which is writt●● afterwards of the servant which would not have compassion The sense and me●ning of the parable. Ma●. ●●. ●. hundred, upon his companion, nor forgive him the debt. There is no difference, but that jesus Christ by that example declareth unto us, that we must not hope to obtain pardon of God, except we have done first all our endeavour, to obtain it of those whom we have offended, and to satisfy and become friends again with them. Also in like manner by the other he declareth unto us, that we aught to have no more hope, if we do not pardon those which shall offend us. Thomas. We must not then, by that reckoning, tarry to pay our debts, and to amend the injuries done unto our neighbours, until we be dead, for to make satisfaction afterwards in Purgatory to the Priests, unto whom the wrong was not done and the debts were not due. Theophilus. Even as by that example jesus Christ exhorteth every one of us, to agreed with our neighbour, during this life: So he admonisheth us to do the like towards GOD, using the very same similitude in the Gospel after saint Luke: Declaring unto us thereby, that if we do know how to provide and The 〈◊〉 ●●d meaning of the words of Sa●●t Luke. ●1. govern our affairs and doings after the world, and to agree with those unto whom we are bond, for to avoid the loss and inconveniences into which we may fall, we aught by a more stronger reason to travail to do so with God, whilst that the time of our visitation endureth, and that he giveth us time and space to agree with him thorough true repentance. For after that the sentence shall be given, there shall be no more remedy. Thou mayst then Eusebius know, if thou dost well understand the meaning of the words of jesus Christ, that they do destroy Purgatory, in steed to build it. For he giveth us no hope that we may take order and remedy for our affairs and business after we be dead, but he would that we dispose it both with God, and among ourselves, before that we depart from hence, and that we appear before his face. Thomas. Thou must then seek some other way, Eusebius. For as far as I do perceive and see, that place will not help up thy Purgatory. Eusebius. Then before we go out from that Evangelist, tell me Theophilus, The place of Saint Mat. ●● c 31. Luc. ●●. b. hundred wherefore jesus Christ hath said, that the sin against the holy Ghost is not pardoned in this world, nor in the world to come. Theophilus. That point is one of the chiefest arguments which your Doctors do put forth for the defence of Purgatory. But what will't thou thereby conclude? Eusebius. That which Saint Gregory concluded, who Dialo. 4. D●st. 25. ca Qual●s. weighed and marked well those words, and said, that by that sentence is given us to understand, that there are some sins, which are pardoned in this world, and others which are in the other world, which out to be purged before the judgement, and for the which it is to be believed, that there is a fire. If in the other world there be forgiveness of some sins, it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it must be in Purgatory. Theophilus. I do greatly marvel of that Logic, which maketh such Silogismes and conclusions: That sin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come. There is then some which is pardoned in the world to come: the which cannot be but in Purgatory. Wherefore there is a Purgatory. There is not a Sophister so ignorant, which aught not to know, that according to the rules of their Logic, one cannot draw a consequence whatsoever it be, of propositions altogether negatives. If then of negatives, a consequence negative is nothing Ex puris negatives nihil sequitur. worth, how shall the affirmative be good, such as you would here conclude? Why one you not conclude rather. This sin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come. It shall be then never pardoned, For if there be a pardon, it cannot be but in this world or in the other. The consequence after this manner should be good. For the Antecedent hath comprehended all the times and places to whom the sin may be pardoned. And after that sort doth Saint Mark expound it, of Marinell 3. d 19 whom the gloze is more certain, then yours. For in steed of that that Saint Matthew hath said, neither in this world nor in the other, he hath said: never. Wherein it appeareth that those two propositions are equivalent and of equality. That sin is not pardoned neither in this world, nor in the other: and that sin is never Propositions., Eq●poll●●is. pardoned. Furthermore, you do contesse, that it must be that the fault of sin, the which maketh man subject to damnation, be already pardoned in this world, & that there remaineth but the pain, the which he must bear and suffer in Purgatory. For you do put none other difference, Di●ersitie of pardons. between the souls of the blessed which are already at rest, and those of Purgatory, and the dampened, but that the Saints which are already in Paradise, are pardoned of pain and fault. Those which are in Purgatory, are not pardoned but of the fault, but they must hear and suffer the pain due to sin, until such time as they have satisfied for it, and that they be perfectly purged. But yet nevertheless because that the fault is pardoned them, their pain is not to them eternal, as the same of the dampened, because that the fault of damnation is ta ken away from them, the which abideth and continueth upon the reprobate. Now jesus Christ speaketh here of sin which dampneth, the which agreeth not but to the reprobate. Wherefore he speaketh of the fault of sin, the which is not pardoned in Purgatory, according to your doctrine, for in the same one can but release the pain. It followeth then, that although that we do agree and grant unto you that there is some forgivensse of sin in the other world, even as you would conclude of the words of jesus Christ that the same should nothing at all relieve and help up your Purgatory. We must then Sin against the holy Ghost. consider the manner of speaking, by the which jesus Christ would declare, how great and detestable that sin is, and to take away all the hope of pardon, unto those which in that point will resist the truth known, and will go about to quench and put out the light of the holy Ghost, which is offered unto them. And therefore he was not contented to say: that sin shall never be forgiven and pardoned. But the better for to augment and amplify the thing, he would use that manner of speaking, which comprehendeth the judgement of God, the which already every man feeleth in his conscience in this life: and that latter judgement which shall be manifested in the resurrection. Wherefore he saith briefly, that in this same life, in the which God hath given to man, time and space to convert and turn himself unto him, that sin shall never be pardoned, and yet less in that latter judgement, in which God will give his latter sentence: except peradventure there were some, which in him had some hope. But it followeth not therefore that he hath forgiveness of any sin, in the world to come, which shall not be here pardoned. But to the end that thou mayst yet better know, that jesus Christ hath not spoken in that sort without just reason, we must consider that he furnisheth us here with a good witness against the Originists and Anabapti●●s, which do promise' forgiveness of sins Against the Crigeniste● unto the Devils and reprobate in the other world. Although I do not believe, that Origines was of such an opinion: For his books do witness unto us the contrary. But for to return unto the words of jesus Christ, sith that jesus Christ saith so clearly, that that sin, which is proper unto them, shall not have forgiveness in this world nor in the other, it followeth then, that it shall never have: or else it must be that they find out an other third world, even as they have found out a temporal eternity, to the which they do give an end: and an eternal A temporal eternity. fire, which is temporal, not perdurable. But although it should be so, that there should be in the world to come some forgiveness of sins, it followeth not therefore, that it is necessary to have there a Purgatory. Now first of all there is no certain witness that there is any remission and forgiveness after this life, but a certain human conjecture and presumption. Then if that proposition be builded upon human conjecture and presumption, yet that which affirmeth the Purgatory is best, sith that the same is none other thing but a conjecture and presumption, builded upon other conjectures and presumptions. For put the case that there should be forgiveness in the other life, could it not be in any other place rather than in Purgatory? or at an other time, than you do there limit? Can it not have been given, either by and by after that one is dead, or delayed until the latter judgement? But which of the ancientest doctors of the church is there, that ever hath expounded that place in such sense as thou takest it? Chrisostome expeundeth it after this Chriso. in Mat. 12. ●omel, 42 manner: Sigh that that sin is not venial unto you, you shall be grievously punished both in this life and in the other. He means none other thing by those words, but that the jews which resisted the holy Ghost, shall not be only punished in this world, for to be chastised and corrected 1. Cor. ●●, 2 〈◊〉 ● Luc, 6. c. 23 as the Corinthians were: or only in the other world, as the rich man was: but they shall be here and there, as those of Sodom and Gomorra. For they were Gen●●, ●●, ●, 24 destroyed by the Romans, and have not escaped eternal damnation. There is nothing in this exposition which can serve you. Those which are of an opinion, that the s●●les do abide uncertain of their salvation, or damnation, and that they may yet profit or impair between this and the great judgement: In like manner those which do esteem and think that the gospel shallbe preached unto the souls of the dead, to which it hath not been here declared, shall they not have more colour here to build their reasons and arguments, than you for your Purgatory? For at the leastwise, those latter here shall have more appearance, according to the scripture, because that they may or can allege some places, which do seem expressly enough to favour that opinion. And yet they have other reasons very apparent, where you have not but certain cold conjectures Now jesus Christ, who is the infallible verity would not, that we should build the articles of our faith, upon conjectures, but upon the express verity. For sith that he and his Apostles do witness, that they have man●fested john, 15 Act. 20 ●●. 20 all that which was necessary to our salvation, & hath commended to us so much the love towards our brethren, it is not like to be true, but is repugnant to the witness of jesus Christ, that they have spoken unto us so obscurely, & have given unto us only some conjectures of this matter, and of the love that we own unto the dead, the which the Priests do wrist it more, then that which is due unto those that be living. hilarius. Because that jesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely, therefore they would make commentaries & gloss, for to declare it, because that it bringeth unto them more profit. Thomas. Thou hast opened a place, Theophilus, of which I would gladly be resolved, that is to say, Preaching to the dead. of the preaching to the dead. For to tell the truth I have oftentimes dreamt & mused after it, because that I considered, that according to the witness of the Scripture, n●ne ●ohn, 35● can have salvation, but thorough the faith in jesus Christ. Now if we do compare those which have known jesus Christ and have believed in him, with those which have not believed, and which have never heard him speak, the number of those here shallbe very little, in respect of others. Wherefore it followeth, that there should be a merua●lous number of the damned, & that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigour & judgement. Now it is strange to man's reason, to judge that God will damn so many, chie●●y, sith that he hath had as many which have not known jesus Christ, for want that one hath not showed him unto them. Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those here is not much out of reason: And I would gladly know what places they can have of the holy Scripture for to prove it, for I will accord and agree almost sooner to that, then to the opinion of Purgatory. Theophilus. Thou hast moved a question, the which cannot be expressed and absolved in few words. For we must first declare what knowledge of jesus Christ is necessary unto salvation: and how it hath been always preached from the beginning of the world, among all people & nations: And how it hath been sufficiently manifested unto the elect for their salvation, & to the reprobate for their condemnation: Insomuch that they are all inexcusable, & they cannot allege ignorance sufficient for to excuse them: And it is not needful that they have any more preaching after this life. But I had rather that we would omit and leave off that matter until an other time, that we may speak more amply of it, and better to satisfy the question which is made daily, touching the salvation or damnation of our predecessors, which have lived in error and ignorance. Yet nevertheless because that the places, which we have accustomed to allege, for the preaching to the dead may also serve to the matter at this present time, I am contented that we do entreat of them, for to declare that they are not firm enough for to prove the same: nor the Limb. nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make them serve. But for that that it may be, that Eusebus doth put them forth amongst his defences, it were better that we do delay that matter, until such time as he bringeth it in by course, in following his matter by order: or if be do it not, thou mayst put me in remembrance Thomas. Yet nevertheless before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put forth or open, I will propound unto him an argument, concerning the point of which we have entreated off, that is to say, of the remission & forgiveness of sins in the other world? Whereupon I demand of thee Eusebius: when jesus Christ did give the keys of the kingdom of heaven unto his Church, as well in the person of S. Peter as unto all the church generally, & that he declare the power of them & of the ecclesiastical ministry, hath he not said namely: That which thou shalt The power of the keys, Mat. 16 c. 19 &. 18. c. 18 bind in earth shall be bond in heaven, & that which thou shalt lose in earth shall be loosed in heaven. He saith not: That which thou shalt bind or unbind, in heaven or in Purgatory, or in hell, or in the other world, or in the other life, and in an other earth, but speaketh of this here in the which the keys have been given, & in the which the evangelical ministry hath his vigour and strength. I will not reiterate that that you said of the forgiveness of fault & pain. For all that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that have received the power of him, do very evil understand their office, willing to extend and stretch the power of their keys, pardons and indulgences, unto The power of the keys & the Indulgences for the dead. the other world, and unto the dead, which have their estate a part and separated from ours, and are no more under the judgement of the church which is in earth, which hath not to regard but on the living. Eusebius, Alexander of Alice, & Gabriel Biel have very well satisfied the objection. For they do In. 4. Sent. Res●erper. de mor virt serm. Dom. in sexa. answer, that the dead aught to be accounted, to be yet upon the earth, as touching the absolution or ligation: binding or unbinding, until that they are passed & entered into the kingdom of heaven. For whilst that the souls are in purgatory, they are upon the earth, sith that they are not yet in heaven, & that Between whether the souls of purgatory are prented. they are yet of the Church militant, & not of the triumphant. Furthermore, even as those which are in the earth are yet in the way, and not at the end & full mark, so are those which are detained in Purgatory: They are in passing, for to go to the country, as touching the purgation, by the which they are purged & pass to the country, as by the way. Although that they are at the end & mark as touching the confirmation. For they can no more sin nor merit. Furthermore, all the while that they are aided, & receive comfort of the temporal & earthly goods, by prayers, one may well hold & account them for to be yet of this world, sith that they do communicate with us of the goods which are there. hilarius. He will account then of the dead, as of the Monks, which are dead to the world in some points, Monks dead to the world but not in other some. They are dead to the world, as to that that they do serve and profit no person, no more than the dead. But they are not dead, as to eating and drinking, and to other carnal works. For in that there is not a people which do better live in the world, nor which are more of the world. Even so shall it be of the dead. They shallbe dead to us, for to give us any more aid and secure. But they shall not be dead for to hurt us and to eat & consume our goods and substance. It is said in a common proverb: Proverb. Mortus non mordent. The dead do bite. That the dead do not bite: But there are none living more biting, than such dead men, except the Priests and Monks which do become unto us so biting, for to bite us under the name and title of them. Theophilus. The Pope advanceth himself to be the lieutenant of S. Peter: But wherefore The Pope the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter. doth he attribute unto himself the office of S. Peter? Eusebius. Because that S. Peter can no more execute it. Theophilus. Wherefore can he no more exercise & execute it? Eusebius. Because that he is no more conversant among the living, and because he hath ended & finished his course, and hath ended his ministry among men. Theophilus. Thou comest now to the matter. If then Saint Peter hath not below the Heaven power to absolve us, nor they of the other world, those which are in this here, how shall the Pope have more power, for so absolve below the earth, and they of this world, those Absolution of the quick and the dead. which are in the other? Sigh that he attributeth unto himself the office of saint Peter, for that that Saint Peter is absent from those that are living wherefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not content himself with the living. What hath he to do with the dead? If in the other world there be an premission of sins, and the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: 〈◊〉 take place, wherefore doth he not leave 〈◊〉 of the same unto Saint Peter, and to the Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs and confessors which are there. For if it be needful to pardon sins to the dead in the other world, those which are there present, and know their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they not better do it then the Pope: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which 〈◊〉 ●●●sent, and altogether ignorant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 estate and condition? They say that they cannot pardon sins to those that be alive, nor absolve them except they confess themselves unto them ●●● to know and judge of th●m how can they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and give 〈◊〉 unto the souls of the dead, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 confession, nor know whether they be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or not whether they be detained ●. hell 〈◊〉 purgatory, or already The office of a Lieutenant. passed and arrived into 〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 think that a lieutenant is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the place of an other; which cannot 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prop●● person. Then if the Pope be the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter: in this world, because that S. Peter is no more here, how can he be his lieutenant in the other world, in which Saint Peter is, and he is not? Behold a sort of lieutenants, the most strangest that ever was in the world. For in steed to hold and keep the place, in which they aught to be present, in the name of those that are absent they being absent, would hold the place in which they cannot be in the name of those which are there present. Wherefore I would counsel the Pope and his, to let the dead alone from hencesoorth, and to meddle no more with them, and that they do leave the charge unto Saint Peter and to Math, ●. c. 22 the other Apostles and Saints which are with them. hilarius. If jesus Christ hath said unto one of his Disciples: let the dead bury the● dead, we may well say unto those here: let the dead absolve the dead, & be you careful but for those that be ti●ing. For I do assure them, that they shall have enough to do to govern the living, & they shall ●nde themselves more ●indled & letted than they think, and more than they would. Wherefore I believe that they shall be forced to let the dead al●ne, and to leave all the charge unto Saint Peter and unto his compaignions': or for to speak better 〈◊〉 God; which hath both the quick and the dead in his 〈◊〉 Wherefore we have no need to ●●men● neither the quick nor the ●end unto the Saints nor Saints, ●ut 〈◊〉 unto the Lord jesus, who is the judge and Saviour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Pope saith also that he is 〈◊〉, I know not what shall be his Church. For if the Pope be lieutenant of jesus Christ: and the office of a 〈◊〉 is ●o hold the place of him that is absent, it follow●●● then that I●su● Christ i● not in the Popish Church, but h● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉. And so by that means the Popish Church shallbe without jesus Christ 〈◊〉 without God. Then of necessity it must be that the Devil 〈◊〉, and that be is the ●ead and the God, as be is the God of this w●●ld. For in the Christian Church, jesus Christ hath no need of a ●●●ar neither lieutenant, sith that he 〈◊〉 always present, and that he hath promised to be in the midst of his Disciples, and with them until Mat, 18. c. hundred &. 28. d 20 the ●nde of the world. Except we will call his ●uly spirit, his ●ear after the imitation of Tertulian because that it reigneth in us by him, and qiutheneth us. ●husebius. Me thinketh that no reason can persuade ●●●. For the answer 〈◊〉 I have alleged unto you of Alexander of Alice, hath already satisfied all your objections and replying, 〈◊〉 although that S. Peter and the Apostles are in the other world, they are not therefore in Purgatory. Wherefore their ministry & their power of their ●eyes, cannot be stretched & pulled out the ●her, but are in heau●, in which there is no more need. Theophilus. Also, ●● more is the Pope neither the priests. I know not whether that The keys of Saint Peter & the Pope. their key be longer, then that of Saint Peter, or whether that there were more space from the heaven unto Purgatory, then from the earth. hilarius. But how knowest thou, whether that Sain● Peter hath carried his key with him or 〈◊〉. For if the Pope have it, Saint Peter hath it no more. Theophilus, Saint Peter had two names, and was called before Simon, Now I believe in deed, that the Pope may have the keys of Simon, not of Simon Peter, but of Simon Peter. Mat. 16. c. 19 john. 1. ●●. 42 Simon Magus: the which argée not with the true ●oore, which is jesus Christ: nor with the true lock which is the word of God, the which is ●●●o the true key of knowledge The keys of Simon. john. 10. ●. 7 Luc. 11. g. 52 for to open unto us the kingdom of heaven. Thomas. He hath then changed the key. Theophilus. There is nothing truer. Thomas, And his, to what door doth it agree? hilarius. Unto that of the coffers ● scrips, for to stuff and fill them, Thomas. Then Purgatory is in our purses. hilarius. We have sufficiently preyed it. Purgatery of purses. For they have so well purged us, that thou wil● say that they are made of the 〈◊〉 of the D●●ell. For any one cross may not ●ary in it, where that Purgatory is. Thomas. It must be called then from henceforth, Pag●tory, Pagatore. or purge purse. Now if the Purgatory be so ●●e, it is not now néedfall that the key be too long for to open it. But whatsoever it be, the Popes have been the subtlest lockyers, & the greatest ●othsmiths y● ever was in the world. The great lockyer. For there was never none, as far as I can see, which hath made and counterfeited more keys, nor which hath made them to agree better to all locks. hilarius. The experience doth witness it. Theophilus. I do think yet upon an other reason, against that of Eusebius. If thou will't limit the ministry The priesthood of the dead. of Saint Peter and of the Apostles, within the compass of heaven, and will't not suffer their power to be stretched forth even to the confins and end of purgatory, at the lest thou shalt not deny me, but that there be some Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and Monks in Purgatory, 〈◊〉 thou will't say y● the● do ●o all strait way into paradise, or into 〈◊〉. Now if, they be in Purgatory, wherefore ●●e you not suffer them to have that office, in the places, where they are present. Eusebius. Because for that they are sinners as others are and subject unto one judgement they are of the same condition as the others, and they cannot give them that whereof they themselves have need, and cannot have it for them, Furthermore, as soon as they are dead, they are deprived from that office. hilarius. I have two reasons for to beat down thy answer: The first is that I am abashed, that the Pope and his do attribute unto themselves the power to pardon all sins, how great and wicked soever they be, yea, all Sodomy, and if need he, the sin against the holy Ghost, notwithstanding that it be irremissible, and do give bul● and pardons for all, so that one do bring them money, and that they have also power to pardon the ve●●all sins in Purgatory. For according to your own doctrine, none are there detained and kept but for the venial sins. For the mortal sins, have no purgation in the other world, but they must be punished in hell. And as to that that thou sayest, that they are sinners, and subject to the same pains in Purgatory, so are they in this world, and leave not off therefore to absolve themselves the one to the other, although they should have killed Father and Mother: and so make themselves The papistical cream. Character indelibilis. as white as the Colliers. Furthermore, you do call the impression of your Cream and holy Oil with which you do anoint the Pristes, when they do take their orders, Charector indelibilis, that is to say, a mark and a sign which cannot be put out nor defaced. If it be so, the Priests do abide and remain always Pristes, although they be dead. For you will not confess, that that impression and mark is only done unto the body: But you do affirm, that it penitrateth and pierceth even to the soul: of which it can never be defaced nor abolished, yet nevertheless thou knowest better then I Theophilus. They do attribute unto it such virtue, that they do affirm for cert●ine, that a priest, notwithstanding so. Chanes. de sacra. Corp. Ch●●. that he be an heretic, or an apostate, or desgraded, yet nevertheless be shall have power always to consecrated the body of God, as well as others, if he do pronounce the sacramental words upon the host, with the intention to consecrated. hilarius. Behold yet to confirm better my purpose I do not doubt for my part, but that that Character is the mark, wherewith is marked the conscience of those The burning of the conscience 1. T●●oth, 4. ●. 2. which shall give heed unto spirits of error and devilish doctrine, and which are Apostates of the faith, according to the prophecy of saint Paul. That is the mark of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot cell The mark of the whore. Apoc. 13. c. 8 nor buy, nor have any place in the Popish Church. That is a mark clean contrary, unto that which the Angel printed in the foreheads of the elect of God. Now sith Apoc. 7. ●, 4 that the Apostles of jesus Christ, and the true bishops and priests, which by them were ordained, have not had that Cautor that is to say Mark (I had thought to have said Character) I am not abashed, if they have not such power in the other world, as the Pope hath in the same and in this. But it is an other thing of him and of his which do depart out of this world, with this Cauter (I do beguile myself always) I do say The example of Friar Roger. with that Character, which they do bear always with them. Wherefore they aught to have no lesser power there then here. And the same I will prove by the example of friar Rogers a Cordelier, which is recited in the book of the conformities of saint Frances. It is there written, that after that he was dead, he appeared unto a certain woman, who confessed unto him all her sins, & he gave her obsolution. If h● being dead had the power to come to hear the confession of the living, and to absolve them, wherefore shall not his other companion's being dead have, and chiefly the Popes and bishops, who have ordained them and confirmed them, as much power among the dead? Furthermore, if according to the witness of your Doctors, others may satisfy for us, not only during our life, but also after that we be dead, wherefore Tho. dist. ●5 q. 2. & dist. 20 q. ●. ar. 3. & dist. 4●. q. 4. ar. 1. cannot we after that we be dead satisfy for ourselves, and to cause Masses to be song in Purgatory, sith that there are so many Priest's Popes, and Bishops for to do it? What thinkest thou Thomas. Thomas. Thou sayest well. But I think that they cannot have their hosts and singing cakes. hilarius. Yet they had nevertheless fire enough for to séethe or bake their gods. Thomas. If it be so, as they say, there is too much. And therefore I think that they cannot have hosts, chalyces, altars, nor vestments. For the fire will schorch and consume it all. hilarius. Thou makest a good reason. But by that count, how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preserved from the fire, which are sent thither by hole cart loads, & which some do cause to be buried with them, for to carry them thither, sith that they are but paper and parchment? The bulls in purgatory as much may we say of the rule and habit of Saint Frances. What sayest thou Theophilus. Theophilus. There is yet an other point. If they will say that those which are in Purgatory, can no more merit, neither for themselves, nor for others, they cannot say the like (without speaking against the doctrine, which they have given us) of the saints which are in Paradise. For they do affirm, that they pray unto God for us, & that they are our intercessors & advocates towards The intercession of the Saints for us. him, and that in seeing God, which seeth all things, they do see all as in a Mirror or looking glass. If they do pray for us which are yet in this life, because of the great Grego. Rat. 〈◊〉 off. ●●. 7 Rub. de off. Mort. love and charity that they have towards us, wherefore do they not also willingly pray for their brethren detained and kept in the fire of Purgatory? For they should have a great deal more reason to do that, if they had any care or charge of men. And that for many causes. First that the estate and condition of the one and the other agreeth more, than it doth of the dead to the living. Secondly, because that they themselves can better perceive of their estate and condition, and whether they be more in pain, or whethether they be out of it, than we. For there is more agreeing of the spirits to the spirits, which are separated from the body, then to us which are yet wrapped in them. And which is more, if that the souls of Aug. li. de ●ur. pro mor. Agen. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra●. d●●●. off. R●b. de off. mor. Purgatory do know, either by divine revelation, or by the report of Angels, or of the souls of them which daily do departed out of this world, that which is done upon earth, as your Doctors do testify and affirm, can they not aswell report and tell unto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory? It is not like to be true, i● there be any, but that they are better advertised than we, and that many ways. And if they be advertised, I cannot believe, that they are so inhuman and ungentle, if they do pray for the living, but that they do pray a great deal more for those poor souls: sith that they are in so grievous torments, without any comparison that may be in the world. I do speak always according to your doctrine. And this is the third reason, by the which I will conclude against the Priests, either that the Saints do not pray for the living: or the it is in like manner necessary and a great deal more needful that they pray for the dead. Now if they pray for the dead, I am of an opinion, that we leave unto them all the charge. For it agreeth better to them then unto us, sith that they are no more of this world, but of the other, in which are those that are dead: and that we have no more cure and charge but of the living. If they will deny that they do not pray for the dead, I have more just and lawful reason to deny unto them, that they do not pray for the living: Except peradventure they would say, that the Saints were as cruel, as th●● which will suffer those poor souls always to burn, which do bring unto them no money. hilarius. Thou hast put forth very strong reasons. But I will a little help Eusebius, to defend his cause, and will propound and put forth reasons against th●●e to which thou shalt have much a do to answer. Thou speakest of the saints, what will't thou say, if I prove unto thee by lively & strong reasons, that the Pope The Pope hath more pow●r 〈◊〉 the sa●●ts hath more power and authority than they? Theophilus. That should be an other ●atter. hilarius. I will make thyself confess it. Who hath more power and authority, either God or the saints? Theophilus. There needeth not an answer unto thy question. For one may understand it without speaking. There is not a Papist, but will ●asely confess, that there is not a saint, which hath virtue nor power, but so much as God will give unto him. hilarius. I have my meaning, and I will now make thee ye●de thyself vanquished. For thou hast already confessed unto me of thy own prop●● mo●th, & hast confirmed my proposition, the which I ●●l yet better prove unto thee, and I will conclu●e all our disputation's in a little syllogism. And I will take for my Mayor and for the first proposition of my antecedent, that which thou hast confessed unto me. Take then my Syllogism. God hath more power and authority than the Saints. Now the Pope is God. ●●go, the Pope hath more power Syllogisms. and authority than the Saints. The Mayor is already confessed by thee. It rests now but for to prove the Minor, and the second proposition: and afterwards the consequence and conclusion s●albe cert●ine and ●●●uby●able. Now but that the Pope is God in ●arth, thou canst not d●ny●st, for many reasons, the which I will not n●we The pope is god ●●● more than god. sh●we forth. But I will do more. For I will prove, that he is not only the God on earth, but which is more, in heaven and in hell, and that he doth make things which God never did make. Theophilus. By that accempt, the Pope then shall not have not only more power than the Saints, but more than God himself. hilarius. It is very true, and thou thyself shalt judge it, provided that thou do hear my reasons. I will not allege for confirmation of my theme, that which saint Paul hath written of Antichrist, the man of sin, Antichrist. 2. Thess. ●, 2. ●. ● the son of perdition, which exalteth himself above all that is called god, or which is worshipped, so that he shall sit as god in the Temple of God, and show himself as God: Notwithstanding that that Prophecy and titles do agree marvelously well to that God of whom we speak. But I will proceed by an other way, the which shall serve for an exposition of those words of Saint Paul. Theophilus. If thou dost as thou sayest the Pope and all the Papists shall be much bound unto thee. For they say only that he is God in earth. Now if he be but God in the earth, he hath then nothing in heaven: And he must not open the gates of Paradise unto the souls of Purgatory. And so I may serve myself with their public witness, for to prove that which I said of his keys, which cannot be stretched forth out of this earth. hilarius. A man may easily reply thereon. For according to their doctrine, Purgatory is in the earth. Wherefore, sith hat he is God in earth, he may well have some power. There should be an other reason, if Purgatory were The place of Purgatory. Plut. l●. de fa●●● qu● v●situr in Luna●. betweee the Moon and the earth, where Plutarch putteth it: except they will say that with the earth they do also compare the air and all the other elements, making the Pope aswell God in the air, water and fire, as in the earth: at the lest thou will't not deny, but that he may well have the keys of hell, for to lead thither the souls: and The keys of hell. that he is the God of the same, if it be in the centre of the earth, according to the common opinion of his Doctors. But for to come unto the matter, thou which art a Theologian knowest, that there be two manner of ways to The manners to know God exod ●●. ● 23 To see God before & 〈◊〉 see and know God. There is a manner to see him before: a●● a manner to see him behind. To see him before, that is to say in his being, glory, and majesty, it is not given unto mortal man. For he shall not be capable of such vision and knowledge. And therefore he answered unto Moses, who desired to see his glory, that he should not see ●●o. ●●. ●. 20 it before, but he would show unto him only his hinder and back parts. I do understand and mean according to that which I have learned of some Theologians, that to see and know the back parts of God, that is to see and know him by his works, by his effects, and in his creatures. For sith that he is incomprehensible unto man in his substance, glory and majesty, the way and manner that he hath given unto man for to know him, is this: to wit, by his word: by his works: by his effects: and his creatures: with which man aught to content himself without inquiring curiously of the nature and essence of God, the which we cannot comprehend. what knowledge of god is necessary for us For we have no need to inquire what ●e is in himself: but what he is towards us: the which he hath manifested unto us chiefly by jesus Christ his son: by the works that he hath done and made in him & by him, and that he doth always. And the manner of knowledge, after the manner of the speaking Argument A posteriori of the dialecticians & Logicians, may be called A posteriori. I will then prove A posteriori, the deite of the Pope: that is to say, by his works and by his effects. Thomas. I will make here a little incident or state. Thou hast now altogether astemed me, in hearing thee speak. For thou art run more deeper and profounder in Theology, than ever Theophilus hath yet done, which nevertheless is a better Divine and Theologian than thou art. hilarius. I have also learned the greatest part of that which I know of Theology of him. But I would also that thou shouldst know, that notwithstanding that you do account me but for a fool and a babbler, yet I am notwithstanding some thing wiser than you do think, but that wisdom continueth not with me much. For I will now cast myself into an other Theology, contrary unto this. Yet nevertheless for to enter thereunto, and the better to declare the difference that is between the divine Theology and the Theology Papal, I will begin my probation by the author●tie of jeremy saying: jere. 1●. d. 20 Can a man make those his gods? He rebuketh the Idolatry of the people of Israel, and therefore he maketh that Man making gods. demand, as of a thing impossible. For how can a man make gods, sith that he cannot be made himself, if God do not make him? How shall he then make gods? Yet nevertheless the Pope attributeth that power unto himself. Wherefore it must needs be that he be more than man: yea more than God. For we do not read that God did ever make gods, to take God in his proper signification. For he alone will be God, and there can be no more but one alone: or otherwise he should not be God. Except One only god. Deut. 6. ●. 4 we will do as Plato, to have a great God, which maketh other little gods. Therefore hath he said that he is God, Psa. 42. ●, ● &. 48 ● and that he will not give his glory and power to none other. But the Pope taketh authority and power not only to make Gods and Saints, but also to unmake them again: the which I will prove unto thee briefly. And without alleadgeing many examples for to avoid prolixity, I will put forth but one, by which one may judge of the others. I will take Boniface the eight of whom Platin giveth this witness, for the ep●loge & conclusion of his legend, Boniface the ●. saying: In this sort & manner died Boniface, he which enforced himself more to give terror & fear unto emperors, kings princes, nations & people, then to induce & lead them in religion: & which endeavoured himself to give & take away kingdoms: to chase & banish men & to bring them again at his To take away and give kingdomed. pleasure: having more greater thirst and desire of the gold, the which he got out of all parts, more than one could declare. Now this differeth not from that which the Decrees and Canons d● witness of the power. of the Pope, saying: That it aperteineth unto him that he may give, take away, change transport the empires & kingdoms, principalites & s●ig●●or●es, as many among them of long time have practised, and showed by effect, of whom the examples shallbe to long to rehearse. Now we cannot deny, but that the same is an act proper unto God alone, according to the witness of Dan●el 〈◊〉 ●, 3, 4. ● and of all the Prophets. Sigh then that the pope usurpeth unto himself, that is already a c●rt●●ne witness of his dentie: And without abandoning and forsaking Boniface, Plate in ●it. B●●●f 8 〈◊〉 ●ing of 〈◊〉 he himself did not sh●w himself ne●lygent in that matter, against Philip king of France, of whom he demanded the Arch●●a●ry of Na●bon, for to declare unto him, that if he did not release out of pr●s●n a Bishop which by him was sent thither, that his kingdom was co●●●●a●● unto the Church, and that the king was excommunicated and cursed: and that he would deliver and absolve all the Frenchmen of the oath and f●a●t●● that they made unto the king. Theophilus. Behold there a goodly act of deity. But there is nothing which is more common unto them than that. H●ll●rius. I will yet declare unto thee of others which are no less available, the which Plati●● rehearseth in like manner. What do the words signify that he said unto Prochet the Archbishop of Genes, when he did cast down himself Prochet archbishop of Genes. 〈◊〉 d●●●. 〈◊〉 The ashes of pope Bo●●ace, Me●eto homo. quia 〈◊〉 ●●, & ●● 〈◊〉 reuer●●r●●. G●bell●●s. Memeto hom● quia G●bell●●●●●●, & cum Gibell●●● 〈◊〉 re●●r 〈◊〉. at his f●●te upon Ashwed●●sday? Where the Priests were accustomed to say: Remember man that thou art ashes, and into ashes thou shalt return again: he said unto him, in changing some words: Remember man that thou art a Gibell● and with the Gibelli●s thou shalt return into ashes. And after that he had said unto him that, he did not put the ashes upon the head as the custom is, but did cast them in his eyes, and deprived him of his Archbishoprics: Afterwards he restored ●t to him again, when he did understand that the Card●●als were n●t 〈◊〉 read and come from Genes. Thou dost here s●● that he maketh and unmaketh Bishops, as he list, and speaketh as a God: He maketh men to r●t●●●n● into ashes, even as from ashes they came. And for to make that goodly act show the fairer, I will rehearse unto the two others, which are yet more better witnesses of the Popish d●●tie. The first is of Stephen the sixt, who wa● so mad against The ●●g●●nd Pope Formosus, that after that he had taken his counsel, madness ●● Pope Stephen against ●o●●osus. caused his body to be taken out of his tomb, afterwards spoilt him of his pontifical & Popish apparel, and in steed of them caused him to ●ée cladded with say men's apparel, and did cut off the two fingers of the right hand, the which the Priests used in their consecration, afterwards, caused them to be cast into the ●●ud Tiber, and commanded that he should be buried as a lay man, in the grave and burial o● the lay men. Now consider, ●f one Pope hath such power over an other Pope, which nevertheless is God, and not only God, but can make God, and unmakers of Gods, which do take power of him to make Gods, let us think what power he can have over others. For in the time that Formosus was Pope, he could not have been in the Popedom, nor in the order of Priesthood, but that he did make Gods, of his two fingers which were cut off, and cast into Tiber. Furthermore, how many Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and Monks were made Plat. in vit. Steph. ●. St●ll●●leri●or● O ●e●era●d● sacerd●tum dign●tas, si dign & sacerdo ta●●●er vixeris ●ntra quorum manus, velut in v●ero virgins, filius d●i incarnatur. Item. Iste qui crea●●t me, didst mahi creary s●. Qui credit ●e sine me, creature med●ante me. The creators of the Creator during his Popedom: which all of them were forgers, and makers of Gods? And yet nevertheless they could not have that power but of him. Wherefore one might rightly say of him: The Lord, the God of Gods. For there is not a Priest of how small learning soever he be, which according to their doctrine, but dareth to attribute unto himself the power to make Gods. For which I will have none other witness, but their book, entitled Stella clericorum, in which are written such words: O how venerable is the dignity of the Priests, between whose hands the son of God is incarnate, as in the womb of the Virgin: And afterwards speaking●●n the person of the Priest. He which hath created me, hath given me power to created him. He which hath created me without me, is created by the means of me. Afterwards, he concludeth: sith then that the Priest is of so great a dignity, that he is the creator and maker of his creator, and of every creature, it is not convenient to lose or damn him. They do● find it inconvenient that God should dampne the priests, because that they are the creators Item Cum ergo tā●e dignitatis sit sacerdoes quoth creator sit sui creator's, & tot●● creaturae, ipsum perdere vel damnare inconvenient est. unde Isidorus. Sicut patrem interficere filium impos●bile est, sie creatorem perdere creaturam in convenient est. Sylla & Mar●●is. of him. And yet nevertheless the pope's may well condemn the pope's, yea, out of this world, sithence that they are before God their sovereign judge, which are not only priests, but which is more, do make the priests. Dost thou find this strange Thomas? Thomas. To speak the truth, those Gods do handle very evil the one the other. hilarius. I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done unto Formosus, doth not seem strange unto thee. But pope Sergius the third hath done unto him worse. Thomas. Then that poor soul Formosus was most unhappy after his death. They have done against the proverb, which forbiddeth to fight with the dead. hilarius. Thou mayst have well said it, if thou hadst herded the history all out. The cruelty of L. Sylla against Marius was not so great. But I think nevertheless but that those pope's have taken their patron upon him. For so did he cause Marius to be taken out of the earth after that he was dead to be avenged of him. And Sylla fearing that one should not do to him the like after he was dead, commanded that his body should be burned. For until his time the famelly of which he came off, accustomed to bury the bodies of the dead, and had not as yet burned them as others did. But for to return unto Sergius, thou must understand. First, that he hath so reproved all the acts of Formosus, that those whom Formosus did make priests, should return Plat. In vit●. Serg. 3. Sergius & Fermesus. again to take their orders of him, judging those unworthy to be priests whom Formosus had made, if they did not the same. And not being content to have done that dishonour unto Formosus after his death, caused his body to be taken out of the sepulchre again, and did not only cut off the fingers, or the hand, as Stephen his predecessor did, but did cut of his head as a malefactor, even so as though he were a live. Afterwards did cast the body into the stud tiber, as unworthy of burial and humane honour. ●hou canst not now deny Theophilus, but that the pope's have power ●oth over the Gods, and over the quick and the dead. And for more greater confirmation hereof, To excommunicate the dead. 2. 4. q. Sane. 2 they have their Canons, which do give unto them power to judge, not only the quick but also over the dead, and to excommunicate & accurse the heretics, but which to more, Pope Boniface hath better declared his divine power, against S. Harman, whose body and bones he caused to be Herman condemned by the Pope. Plat. in vit. Bonis. 8. digged up, whom those of Ferrara have honoured & accounted for a Saint already the space of xx. years, & condemned him for an heretic, and burned him: As some say that they have also done the like of wikchf, who nevertheless was of better learning than his adversaries. But that same is always common to all the papistical sect, as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it those years past, in two poor faithful Christians at Aix in Provence. He hath stocked & imprisoned them so much, & hath so scorched and burned their feet & ankles within their boots, which he filled with grease, and so putting to fire, that those poor people & martyrs of jesus Christ could not tarry the time to be altogether burned, but they died whilst that he was absent, & were buried by the hangman in unhallowed ground, because that they were accounted by them for heretics. Yet nevertheless that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be ●f ●oma the ●hler of the ●aith. contented with all that, but was very angry because they buried them, & caused them to dig them up again, & to burn the being dead, sith that he could not burn them being alive. On the contrary, even as Boniface, hath caused this S. Ha●man to be digged up & to be condemned for an heretic & burned Saint Herman. him, who nevertheless was accounted for a Saint● he hath also canonized S. jews, who was of the blood royal, who as Saint Lewes. canonised. some men say, was professed of the order of S. Frances. Also in like manner, pope, Felix & Gregory have ordained that one should celebrated yearly, feasts & sacrifices in the memory of the martyrs. Now what other thing is y● but to judge than saints & to deify them? But to the end that every one do not attribute unto themselves the power to make Gods as the pope's, & that every one do not honour him that cometh in their fantasy. Pope Alexander the third hath ordained that no man should be held and accounted for a Saint, and that no divine honour should be attributed unto him except that he were first enrolled among the Saints and canonized, by the commandment and ordinance of the Apostolical seat. That commandment and degree is written in the decretals, in the title of the relics of Saints. Sigh then that he canoniseth and maketh Saintes, afterwards when they are made he unmaketh them, it followeth then that he maketh and unmaketh the Gods, & that he is judge both of the quick and of the dead. For all that is God unto man to whom he giveth the honour due unto God. Now we cannot deny but that the superstitious and Idolaters do give unto their Saints and unto dead men, the ●onor Dead men the gods unto Idolaters. due unto God alone. Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods, as well as to the Idolaters, those whom they have accounted for Gods, which nevertheless were dead men, which have been canonized by the kings, Princes and Senates, and the common error of the people, even as the Herodia. li. 4. pope & the superstitious do yet use at this day. Sigh then that the pope maketh and unmaketh such Gods, which are dead men, and judgeth, condemneth, and absolveth them, it followeth then that he is the judge of the quick & the dead: the which is also declared, by the example of the Emperor Henry the fourth, who was excommunicated: afterwards was put into a cruel prison, in the city of Liege, by his proper Henricus. 4. and only son, in the which he was strangled: and so as many do affirm, by the commandment of his own son, who secretly sent unto him the hangman. And therefore for that he died excommunicated, he was not buried in the holy ground, until that he was absolved and delivered from his excommunicating, after his death, by the pope: by the means of which absolution, he was carried to Spire, to the sepulchre of his fathers. Will't thou now deny, that the pope hath not more power than the Saints, & that he is not greater Lord than jesus Christ, & as much to be feared or rather more than God? For jesus Christ hath said, & witnessed ●●●rely, that his kingdom is not of this world. But the Pope will have it both in this world and in the other. Furthermore, he admonisheth us not to fear those Math, to, c. 28 which can but only kill the body and do no more, but let us fear him only which is able to destroy both body and soul and to cast them into hell. Sigh then that the Pope attributeth unto himself such power, that after that that he hath killed the bodies, he persecuteth still the souls after the body is dead, and excommunicateth the dead and sendeth them into hell, who will deny that he is not God, and that he may not use the authority of his keys, as well towards the dead, as towards the living? And that his bulls and pardons do not extend and stretch forth unto The virtue of the bulls and pardons. the dead and to the souls of Purgatory? As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth, Innocent the eight, Pascale the fift, Calistus, and a great many other Popes which have given full remission by their bulls and indulgences both to the quick and the dead: And oftentimes for small causes: As for to go and visit a certain Chapel: to make a certain voyage, and other like matters: But upon condition, that he have always ready money. And the better to witness that Popish deity, Pope Boniface the eight would not have his jubilee among the jubilee of the Pope. Plate in vit. Bems. 8. ●ubile of God. levit. 5, b. 11 Christians, as God had it among the Israelites, but of an other sort. For God ordained the year of the great jubilee, from fifty years to fifty years, for to comfort the poor people: for to tender and restore the wages and possessions unto the poor that are in debt: for to deliver the poor bondmen out of servitude & bondage, and for to prefigure and foreshow the year of grace, and the deliverance & liberty which jesus Christ aught to bring unto the Christian people, according to the prophesy of Esay and of the Luc, d. c, 16 Esa. 61, a, 〈◊〉 other prophets. But the Pope Boniface in the year 1300 as if jesus Christ was not come, and that he had not by his coming declared unto us the year of the great jubilee, which shall endure until the end of the world, & by the which we are affranchised from the ser●tude of sin, death, devil, and of hell, as putting himself in the place of jesus Christ, hath constitute● his jubilee, by the which he hath promised full remission of sins, unto all those which will come visit at Rome the Church of Saint Peter, and of Saint Paul: And hath commanded that it should be always celebrated from an hundredth years unto an hundredth years. For he fears lest the old custom of the ancient paynim should in succession of time be altogether abolished. Thomas. What custom? hilarius. They have accustomed The plays of the panyms. to play in the honour of their Gods, jests, histories and divers other plays, which they do call secular plays, because they do not celebrated it but from an hundredth to an Luds seculares. hundredth years. And therefore the Heralds do cry which declare and publish them: Come & see the games the which none of you shall never see any more. Eusebius. But Boniface hath done clean contrary to that y● thou sayest. For he hath constituted the jubilee for to abolish the memory of those Panish plays. hilarius. He hath changed plays into plays, and those which profited him nothing at all he hath changed them into others more profitable for him. But the other Popes which came afterwards, seeing and perceiving that that jubilee was too long for them, and that they could not have so good a part for their prey, have abrogated and made shorter the time. And therefore Pope Clement the sixt hath remitted it from 50. years to 50. years. Clement. 〈◊〉. Plat. in vi●. Clement. 6. Sextu● B●nauenture de●●ied. Alexander. 6 And after him, Pope Sextus the fourth, who hath deified and put among the saints. S. Bonaventure, hath again remitted it from twenty-five. years to twenty-five. years: and hath celebrated the first, in the year 1475. Afterwards, Alexander the sixt, who was pope in the year 1500. following the example of Sextus, hath yet better enlarged that jubilee. For ●e hath not only held & kept it at Rome, but hath so enlarged it throughout all Christendom, that there remaineth almost no city, village, nor parish, but that he hath made them partakers of it. Thomas. They may then be well called Gods livetenaunts in earth. For sith that they do it 〈◊〉 y●●●●t, jesus Christ is well at leisure. He ●ught to have no great care, neither for the quick nor for the dead, sith that he hath such lieutenants: we shall be compelled The Pope the judge of the quick and of the dead. to change our Credo, and whereas in the same we confess that he shall come from heaven for to be the judge of the quick and the dead, we must give that title unto the Pope. hilarius, A good Sophister will easily absolve thy doubt. For we confess that jesus Christ shall come at the time appointed. Wherefore they will conclude that jesus Christ is not yet really and in every deed, judge of the quick and of the dead, but that he shallbe: Or if thou will't that I do tell thee in their language: That he is judge, Non actu sed habitu & aptitudine, but that the Pope is, not only in power remote & future, but actu, & in potentra propinqua propinquissima: that is to say, of act, d●ede, work and power near and present. Thomas. Beholve a goodly solution. In the mean while then, jesus Christ shall rest, and the Pope shall doc●all. Theophilu●. I am abashed, if their bulls, indulgences & pardons have such power. How Gregory hath passed them Gregory. 〈◊〉. hath made no mention of the bulls for the dead. over, without making any mention of them, when he comprehended all the means by which the living, might comfort the souls of purgatory. For he did put a●d declare ●nt four, and touched not one word of the bulls and pardons. But there is yet an other point, that which the doctor Hostiensis, which is of great reputation among the papises, Hostiensis contrary unto the bulnes. was not of opinion that the pope can do such things by his pardons and indulgences, but hath held the contrary. ●ea, and the other doctors, as Bonaventure, Thomas of Scolastical doctors doubting of the bulls. Re●sperg. de mor. 〈◊〉. ser. d●m. sexa. Aquin, Alexander of Alice, Giles, D●rand, Richard, Peter of Tarentais●, and many other like, hau● had sometime the thing in doubt, and have only disputed of it, as of an opinion: afterwards have taken upon them baldness to define upon it, and to give their sentence, as if they were well assured of it. But if that which they do writ of the bulls and pardons be true, it is great felly for the papists, to bestow any more any penny, nor half penny, neither for the funerals, nor for the masses, vigils, nor other suffrages for the dead, & that they should reject a● other manner Bulls doing all things. of doings, for to hold themselves only to the bulls & pardons, and to buy them for to draw the souls from Purgatory. For it should not cost them so much, & should have sooner dispatched & ri● away the poor souls from Purgatory. For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the The treasure of the church, and the dispensation of the same. Alex. de A●es. In. 4. Sent. Re●sperg. de mor. virt. serm. D●m. in sexa. Church, & hath the power, as Alexander de Alice witnesseth, by the power of his keys, & by the means of his indulgences to distribute & bestow them, as well to the living as to the dead, the Papists have no more need of any other thing. For even as they have by their Masses and other inventions, abolished & put out the virtue of the death and passion, and of the sacrifice of jesus Christ, so the Popes, which have been the authors of the bulls and indulgences have abolished masses, suffrages, & all meritorious works, for the quick & for the dead, which their predecessors have invented, without the word of God. And so by that means one shall have no more need, not only of jesus Christ, but also of their masses, nor of all that that they can do: but it is sufficient for all, to have paper & parchment written, and bulls signed & sealed with wax or with lead. ●ut which is more, I am very much abashed, how they dare to attribute so much power over the dead, to their bulls, keys & absolutions, sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decre●als & Canons do witness and openly confess, that the church can binds and unbind those that be living, & not the dead: and that w●e do not read, that the same was ever commanded or done, not of jesus Christ himself, which al●ne hath the power to do that. But hath said namely unto S. Peter: All that that thou shalt bind or unbind upon the earth, shallbe bond in heaven. He hath said namely, upon earth. For he hath never The power of y●●e●es limited in this world. 24 q. 2 ca Quod aut. & le●atur. Mat, 16. c 19 said, that he that shallbe dead being bound shallbe unbound. Behold the very words of the Canons, which do well way the words of jesus Christ, and do confirm y● that I have said, of the authority of the keys, at the lest in this place: in which is said very plainly, that by those words of the gospel is declared, that none can be excommunicated, or absolved a●ter he is dead. For he says: That which thou shalt bind or unbind upon earth. He saith not under the earth, declaring that we may bind and unbind those that be alive, for the diversity of their merits but we cannot give sentence of the dead. Behold the question that Gratian propounded, & the resolution in his own words. Thomas. How can that agree with that which hath 24. cue 2. ca Sane. been already alleged of the very Canons, which do give power to excommunicate the Heretics after they be dead. It must needs be that the canons be contrary the Contrariety of the Canons. one unto the other. Theophilus. That is not new nor rare with them. But the glosers do excuse that by their interpretations and exceptions. I do not deny, but that we may condemn To excommunicate the doctrine of the dead. dempne after that one is dead the false doctrine that a man and an Heretic shall hold during his life, if then it be manifested, even as it might be done by some of them of whom they do allege the examples, for to advertise the Churches, to the end that the faithful might the better keep themselves. But to excommunicate and curse the people, I know or see not how that can be bo●ne with all by the holy Scripture, ●ith that they are before their judge, unto whom the Angels did send the Devil, as is written of Michael the Archangel, who The angels dared no● curse the devil. 〈◊〉 pist. jud. b. 9 disputing with the Devil about the body of Mo●es, dared not use railing judgement against him, but said unto him: The Lord rebuke thee: Yet nevertheless those here dare to enterprise more against men both quick and dead, than the Angels dared against the Devils: although that they hold them already for most certe●●e to be condemp●●ed of God. hilarius. I am yet abashed of one thing. If the Pope have such power to give full remission from pain and fault by his bulls & moulgences, aswell for the quick as for the souls of the dead, I marvel that he hath not already long sithence made empty and cleansed Purgatory: and that he hath not fetched out all the souls, sith that he giveth so many pardons daily and hourly, and not only he, but all ●is Cardinals, bishops, priests & monks. Eusebius. In. 4 sent. Re●s●erg. de m●r. v●r. ser. d●m. 〈◊〉. There is a goodly answer unto that question. The first is, for that there goeth every day new into Purgatory. The other is, even as Saint Thomas & saint Bonaventure do answer unto that objection, that it is very requisite and needful, before that the indulgence and pardon be available, that it have reasonable cause: The dispensation of the treasure of the Church. and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church (in which are assembled and comprised all the merits of jesus Christ & all the merits of all the Saints and Saints, which ever were) should be done with moderation and discretion: Unto whom the pardons do profit. or otherwise god will not accept it. And therefore the pardons & indulgences are not given unto any person, either for him or for any other, be he quick or dead, but by reason of some good work that he hath done, either for himself, or in the name of those for whom the pardon is given. And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which have the charge to give them, & all do know, be they Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots, Monks or Priests, The power to give pardons lymitted. how many they may give every day: except the Pope, which hath not his power limited, except he use them unreasonably, the pardons then that he will give, shall not be available with god. hilarius. I understand what thou wouldst say. The pope hath heaped up together all the merits of jesus Christ, of the patriarches, prophets, Apos; tles, Martyrs, confessors, virgins, saints & saints of paradise, & of all the Christian Church in a treasure, and a garner of which he alone hath the keys and can open or shut, & distribute little or much, when he will and as it pleaseth him. The great Lockyer or locksmyth. For he is the great lockesimth. But all the others are but as his servants, of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of every one, in such sort, that they cannot distribute, but that that he hath delivered unto them, and of whom they have the keys. Wherefore if it behoveth that he have in the treasury & garner a great many of several chambers and cabins, of which many must have the keys every one his own, for to departed and bestow that whereof he hath the dispensation, without daring to touch the rest, except that sometimes, those little varlets and lockesmithes do pick the lock and the door of the great loksmith Pick locks. and great treasurer, he knowing nothing thereof, and that he be not therewithal content: although that under his name and title, they streth forth their power, as seemeth good unto them, and do forge keys, bulls and pardons as many as they list, and always at the costs of the poor people. Now the great lockesmith hath no limit, but that he hath always reasonable cause, for to give bulls and pardons as many as one would, so that money do come: or otherwise he will suffer the poor souls to be roasted and tormented in Purgatory, as long as the world shall continued, for want of one leaf of paper or parchment with a little wax and lead. As concerning the others which have the days limited that they may give pardons, I have a certain doubt, the which I would that I were resolved of it by thee Eusebius. For sith that the one hath power to give two or three thousand, an other two or three hundredth, an other an hundredth fifty, forty, thirty or twenty, either more or less. I would gladly know of thee what Clocks of Purgatory. horologes & clocks, & what quadrants they have in purgary, for to measure those days there. For sith that there is no sun, moon nor stars, what days & what years can they have? For the time is taken of the morning, of the heaven & of the course of the sun. But those which are in purgatory, have nothing of all this: Wherefore I cannot comprehend what years, what months, days & hours they can have: & whether they be very long or short. Example of the long days in Purgatory. As far as I can imagine, by an example which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum, the days aught there to be marvelous long. For he says, that an Angel carried thither a soul of a man, to whom he promised, that it should tarry there but an hour. And as soon as that Angel did come again to see that soul, it did begin to cry out upon him, and to call him liar, deceiver and traitor. Thomas. To what purpose? hilarius. It said unto him: Thou hast promised me, that I should be but an hour and I have been here already more than an hundredth years. But the Angel answered unto him: There wanteth a great many my friend. For thou hast not yet tarried a quarter of an hour. Wherefore I do conclude, that it must needs be that the days and years be there very long, sith that a quarter of an hour is there compared to a hundredth or thousand years of ours: or else that the fire is there marvelous hot, and that the time continueth long to the poor souls. Eusebius. I will tell thee as touching the pardons, it hath been long time sithence, that many people do know that there is in them great abuses. Wherefore I will not much break my brains to maintain them. Theophilus, I do also judge it lost time to speak of such abuse, if I did not see that since the time of Gregory, so many people to have been abused, & that so many great Doctors, which are most esteemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolmen, have written of it, and have confirmed it so assuredly. hilarius. The power of the deal over the Popes I know that thou dost begin already Eusebius, to agreed with us. I believe that thou art of this opinion, that the Pope aught to let the dead rest, without reigning over them, sith that they have more power over the Pope, than the Pope over them: as I will prove it by an example taken from the authentic book, which is entitled the conformities of Saint Frances. For I have never read that the Pope hath raised to life any dead person, and that he came to answer before him, of all those whom he hath cited, condemned, absolved, or excommunicated. But that book doth witness manifestly that Friar Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poitiers, hath Pope Clement the 〈◊〉 by Friar Walter being dead. caused to be cited after his death by a Cedule, Pope Clement the first, for to appear before the eternal judge, because that he had unjustly deposed him from his office. Thomas. And did the Pope appear there by virtue of that citation? hilarius. If the book lie not, that was no jest. For at the very same day which was prescribed unto him, the Pope died of a sudden death, and departed suddenly for to go and answer there. What sayest thou by this Eusebius? If this history be false, it is a great dishonour for the Cardeliers, who do make great account of that book, and do hold it to be very precious among them, as a relic, and revelation. And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Frances, and of the four Mendicants. I know not what good means we may here find for to maintain that building, and The foundation of the order of the Mendicants. the honour and authority both of the one and of the other. For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Frances, the order of saint Frances is builded and stayed upon the Pope, wherefore when the Pope shall fall, which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that building, also shall fall the building, the order and the rule of the Mendicants. Now we cannot deny, but that example doth ruinated & overthrow the Pope & all his power. I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false. For I believe that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God, & saint France's conformable & agreeing to jesus Christ, as that book full of blasphemies enforceth itself to prove it. But I consider only, that sith that the Cordeliers have written such an history, & do maintain it by their books, that they do abate as much the authority and power of the Pope, as the Pope doth confirm their rule and order. For how can this witness agree, with this proposition? The Pope cannot err? And with the exposition which Eccius and his like do make of those words? Thou art Peter and upon that rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. If the Pope be that rock or stone, and that stone is fallen, it must needs be that all the Popish church do fall with it, and the orders of the four Mendicants, which are his four Euangelysts, and his principal pillars. And The Popes evangelists. so by that means the Cordeliers whom the Pope hath made, do unmake the Pope, which hath made them, and the creature unmaketh his creator, and the creator his creatures. Theophilus. It chanced to them, as to the Madianits, The papistical Madianites. judge 7, g. ●2. which destroyed themselves the one the other, with their own weapons, when they herded the sound of the trumpets, and pitchers of the army of Gedeon, and see the light of his torches. So in like manner sith that jesus Christ, our true Gedeon, hath put the trumpets of his gospel. The true Gedeon into the hands of his little army, the which, by virtue of his holy spirit, he maketh to sound even unto the ends of the world, and causeth the light of his word and gospel to shine thorough out the earth, we aught not to doubt, but that all those Madianits shall be in short time discouraged and discomfited, according to the Prophecy of Esay: notwithstanding that the flock and company of Esa. 9 〈◊〉 jesus Christ be little. For it is puissant enough by virtue of their captain: besides that they themselves shall be discomfited with their own sword, and shall fall into ruin, with their Purgatory which hath but a little hold or stay except thou do bring unto it again some stone and mortar for to repair and amend it. Eusebius. I will employ all the means or ways that I can find out. And therefore mark and regard how thou shalt rid and discharge thyself of that which is written in Saint Luke. where jesus Christ says: The servant The place of Saint Luc. 12 〈◊〉. 47. that knoweth his masters will and prepareth net himself neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes: But he that known not his masters will, and yet did commit many things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. Now it is even so, that in hell there is neither little nor much. For the pains there are infinite. And therefore it is called the hell fire, the ertreame darkness. Wherefore it followeth that that path Mat 22 b. 17 of which is here spoken off, cannot be understanded but of the same of Purgatory, in which may be more or less. Theophilus. There should be no hell if thou will't so interpret the scripture. What opinion hast thou of those The judgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians Genos. 19 c. 24. of Sodom and Gomorrha: Dost thou think that they be in hell or in Purgatory? Eusebius. I believe that they are in hell: sith that their iniquity hath been so great, that it must needs be that God hath consumed them, thorough the fire of his judgement. Theophilus. If there were found among them some, who feeling the judgement of God upon them, have remembered the preaching & admonitions which Loth made unto them by the word of god, and which have had repentance and were sorry for their sins, in requiring mercy of God with a good heart and good affection in the midst of the fire: I will not maintain that God hath refused unto them grace and mercy. For he hath promised unto E●e●h. 18, 〈◊〉. 2● the sinner, as often as with a good heart he shall return unto him. Now if there be any such among them, I leave that to the judgement of God, who knoweth all things and those that are his. For he punisheth sometimes some 2. Timo●. 2. c. 1●. men with corporal pains, with the reprobate, the which notwithwanding he condemneth not with them to eternal damnation, he punisheth them corporally, as he chastiseth and correcteth his elect by afflictions, either because The punishment of the elect with the reprobate. that they have been negligent in rebuking the wicked and vicious: or else that they have given some consent unto their vices, and have not had in recommendation the honour of GOD as they aught to have had. But because that they have not abidden and continued hard hearted, & have not sinned against the holy Ghost, the Lord mitigateth their pain, and is contented to chastise and correct them corporally, for to humble them, to make them to acknowledge their fault, and for to be an example unto others: As the Apostle witnesseth of the Corinthians, who for the despising of the Supper of jesus Christ, were chastised of God with diseases and death. Such might be the kindred of Loth. For it is not like to be true that Loth would have taken alliance The kindred of Loth. with them, if they had been altogether as abominable as the others of the city. Yet nevertheless because they were unbelieving & of incredulity, and that they lightly regarded all things, they were punished with the others, for to give others to understand, that it is not good to devil among the wicked and to support their iniquity. Yet nevertheless I leave the same to the judgement of God, who knoweth the hearts. But I only speak this to the end we doée not judge rashly of his secrets and judgements, & except we have express revelation: but those that have persevered in such a heart and such affection as they had, when they would have done violence unto Loth, and to his guests which he had received into his house, and are dead in that wicked mind, I doubt not but that they are perished. For we have the express word of god, of the condemnation of such people. For I doubt not that of those jesus Christ speaketh not, when he spoke unto his Apostles, of those which re●ected the preaching of the Gospel: Verily I say unto you, that those of Sodoma Math. 10. b. 15 and Gomorrha shall be handled more easily in the day of judgemet then those there. In what place shall be that handling? That shall not be in Paradise. For where there is no pain, there needeth no mitigation. Neither shall it be in Purgatory: For according to your own doctrine, it shall then cease. It must needs be then in hell. Eusebius. But how can that be in hell, sith that the pain there is infinite. Theophilus. Thou must understand, that there is not so little a pain, which is not infinite and importable, unto him which is forsaken of God, but yet nevertheless God may and can make his judgement, his wrath and indignation to be felt unto some more than to other some. But it followeth not therefore, but that all men are constrained to carry it, and but that it is a burden importable to all men. Therefore it is so often written, that those which shall have most sinned shall be most punished. Now those unto whom God hath given more favour and grace, and hath given more knowledge of his will, than the others, do sin most grievously. For they declare a more greater ingratitude, malice and stubbornness, & have less excuse. But it followeth not therefore, that the ignorance and negligence doth excuse the others, but that they Ignorance doth excuse none. have their part, jesus Christ manaseth with a more grievouser judgement those which shall reject his Gospel because that God hath showed unto them more grace and favour, then unto the Sodomites and Gomorrians. Wherefore they do tender themselves more culpable and inexcusable. But although that the Gospel hath not been preached so clearly and plainly unto the Sodomites & Gomorians, as unto us, yet jesus Christ doth not excuse them therefore altogether, nor absolveth them of the judgement of God. But for to amplify the ingratitude & malice of Punishment upon those which do reject the gospel. those which reject the benediction and blessing of God, he compareth them to the most execrablest that ever were upon the earth. Not for to justify the others, but the better to confounded those here, demonstrating unto them that their iniquity is so abominable, that God condemneth them which may be accounted and taken for good men, in comparison of these: not that they are, but in comparison of the excessive iniquity of those here. After this manner we must understand that place of S. Luke, without dreaming out a purgatory. For the pain of which jesus Christ speaketh off, may be here in this world: or at the day of judgement: or in hell, as the same of the Sodomites, Gomorrians and their like. Or thou shalt be constrained to put into Pargatorye all the wicked and reprobate, which have been since the beginning of the world. For the Lord doth always menace and threaten with more grievous pain the successors sors, than the predecessors, because that they do aggravate always more & more the judgement of God upon them, because that the light is more greater revealed unto them, and that they have more examples of the judgements of God, that which they despise: & do yield themselves culpable, not only of their wickednessé, but also of the sins of their fathers and predecessors, allowing them by their doings. Thomas. The sleepers and dreamers may take from that place an argument for to prove their dreams, because it seemeth by the words of jesus Christ, that the pain of the Sodomites and Gomorrians is differred until the day of judgement. But thou hast already shortened and cut off the way for them, in declaring unto us bow the judgement is already done, and how it is yet to do. Theophilus. These two places aught very well to incitate and stir us forward to follow verity and to seek it. For ignorance exempteth us not from the judgement of God, the which cometh of our fault, chiefly in these days, that the Gospel is so clearly revealed unto us. Eusebius. Therefore I desire to know and well understand all those places which might yet trouble my brains, among which there is one in the acts of the Apostles, which some men do interpret for the Purgatory. It is there written, that God hath raised up jesus Christ, and 〈◊〉 place of the Act. 1. d. ●4 〈◊〉 s●d the sorrows of Hell. Now he hath not loosed the sorrows of the hell fire or gebenne, which are eternal: nor of the Limb. For there is to be had joy and consolation. It followeth then, that the same aught to be understanded of the sorrows of Purgatory. As much may we say of many like places which are in the Psalms, as these here, unto which David said: The sorrows of hell compassed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●e. Then Lord hast brought my soul out of hell. God shall deliver my soul from the power of hell, when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Psa● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ●3 he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And job saith in like manner: O that thou wa●idest ●eepe me and hide me in the hell, until thy wrath ●ere stilled: and to appoint me a time, wherein thou mightest remember me? what other hell can we here understand, than Purgatory? Theophilus. I am abashed of the great ignorance of such interpreters of the scripture. For first, in the place of the acts, it is not in the Greek copies the sorrows of hell, and it was not so written of S. Luke. For he hath said, the sorrows of death, and not of hell: although that in your common translation it is written as thou sayest. But although it were so, all should come to one end. For the text doth plainly declare, that Saint Peter speaketh in that Sermon of the resurrection of jesus Christ, and that he himself expoundeth hell, for the tribulations, extreme sorrows, the death, the pit, the sepulchre, the low places, and the estate and condition of the dead, from which jesus Christ is raised. He maketh there no mention of the Limb, of Purgatory, nor of the gehenna or hell fire. That same solution sufficeth for all the other places by thee alleged. For that is very common in the Scripture, to take hell in that signification, as it appeareth by those places the which thou baste put forth. For how many times says the Prophet in those same places? The sighings of the dead have environed me. I have called upon thee in my trouble. I have Psal, 2●. 30, 49 cried unto thee and thou hast healed me. Thou hast delivered me from those that go down into the pit. He means none other thing by those words, but that he setteth forth and declareth that hell from which he was delivered. Wherefore I am greatly ashamed, both of Eccius and of Cochleus, for that they were not ashamed, to allege such places for to maintain their Purgatory. Eusebius. Whatsoever thou sayest, it seemeth nevertheless The place of the 1. Cor. 15 To b● baptized for the dead that already in the time of Saint Paul, the Christians were of an opinion, that the living might give some aid unto the dead, by that that he writeth of those which did baptize themselves for the dead. Now that could not profit, neither those which were in Paradise, nor those which were in hell. It must be then that it profiteth those of Purgatory. Theophilus. Thou oughtest already to have understanded by that which hath been said of that place, that it can serve nothing at all for Purgatory. I do not deny unto thee, but that in the time of the Apostles, there were suffrages and prayers for the dead. But that was among the paynim and Idolaters, as it hath been already very amply entreated off amongst us. And doubt not, but that there remaineth some root of such superstition in some of those which are called Christians. But if it were so as thou dost understand it, it followeth not therefore that Saint Paul alloweth that manner of doing: As the ancient Doctors themselves do witness it, namely Saint Ambrose. For I may well take Ambro. in 1. Cor. 15. an argument against a Papist (which will deny unto me the resurrection, or immortality of the souls) with their manner of doings towards the dead, for to beat him with his own sword, and yet I will not allow nevertheless their superstition. But it is not needful to stay any more upon that place, sith that I have already declared unto thee, how the ancients have understanded it, and how it is also expounded by others. For whatsoever exposition that thou mayst give unto it, it cannot serve for thy purpose. And there was never any of the ancients, which hath dreamt, that the same was done because of purgatory. For Epiphanius witnesseth, Epipha. li. 1 Tom. 2. heres. 18. that those which baptized themselves for the dead, which were dead before that they had received Baptism, did it to that end that when they should rise again in the resurrection, they should not be punished for that they have not been baptized in this world. He saith that such was their opinion. Wherefore it is easily to know, that they did not think of Purgatory. He toucheth yet an other exposition of that place, the which he alloweth. But yet it maketh less for thee. To conclude, that place serveth as much for your broylers of souls for to prove your Purgatory, as for the Marcionistes heretics, who as witnesseth Theophilactus, do draw them to their purpose, for to prove their Theophilact. 〈◊〉, Cor. 15 baptism, which they receive for the dead. For when any died among them without baptism, they had a custom, that one that was alive should enter within the beer of the dead, or where the dead was laid. Afterwards they did come unto the beer and demanded of the dead, if he will be baptized? Then the live man, which was there hide, in a low place under the beer, answered that he would. Wherefore they did baptize him in steed of the dead. hilarius. They had yet more appearance, than our Bishops & Priests which baptized the bells. Eusebius. If those two arguments do seem unto thee weak and feeble, I will alldge unto thee a stronger. When S. Paul did writ unto The place of the Phil, 2, b. 9 the Philippians, that unto jesus Christ is given a name above all names, that in the name of jesus, should every knee bow, both of things in heaven & things in earth, & things under the earth. What understandeth he by those which under the earth do bow their knees unto jesus Christ? That cannot be understanded of the devils. For they have not accustomed to honour God, nor the damned also. For their office is rather to blaspheme him. It must needs be then that they be in Purgatory which do bow the knee unto jesus Christ, which do honour him, or otherwise the words of S. Paul should not be true. Theophilus. If by boowing the To bow the knee. knee, S. Paul did understand the true divine service, the true invocation, and the true honour which the elect do own unto God, there should be some reason & appearance in the argument. But S. Paul by that manner of speaking, The seignyary of jesus Christ. means none other thing by boowing the knee, but that to jesus Christ is given such domination, that it is necessary that every creature be subject unto him, and obey him, and acknowledge him to be judge and Lord: the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart: the wicked and reprebate, in spite of their teeth. But they are nevertheless campelled. For they cannot resist the virtue and power of jesus Christ, which maketh his enemies his footstool. But the Apostle useth such Psal. 110. ●. 1 manner of speaking, for to follow the stile of the Prophets, and to declere unto us that which the Lord hath said by I say: I do live saith the Lord: Every knee shall Psa. 45. d. 23. boowe unto me. The which the Apostle expoundeth by other words, saying: we shall be all brought before the judgement seat of Christ. Afterwards he confirmeth ●om. 14 b. 10 that proposition by the very words of the Prophet, declaring that all that cometh to one effect. For because that the good and evil are compelled to tender obedience unto their Lords, and that they do declare commonly their subjection and humility in boowing the knee and doing reverence before their Lord, the Scripture useth such manner of speaking for to signify the obedience, reverence and subjection, that every creature must she we towards God. Although that the same may be done diverse ways either by bowing the knees, and without bewing the knees. For the Angels and the souls can no better boowe their knees then the Devils: sith that all of them have no knees: which cannot be but to bodies: if we do not understand any otherwise those figures of speaking. And therefore there is no inconvenience, to understand by those which do bow the knees under the earth, the Devils themselves with all the reprobate, which shall all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, and shall be compelled to acknowledge him to be their judge, in great Who do bow the knees under the ●rch. horror and fear, as they have already showed by experience, in the time that jesus Christ was yet in his mortal body & passable, before that he was risen again. For the wicked spirits were constrained to obey him, and to confess him to be Christ and to pray unto him: Although that it was against their wills, saying: O jesus thou son of God, what have we to do with thee? Art thou come hither 〈◊〉 d. 10. Mar. 1● 24 to torment us before the time be come? We know that thou art the holy eve of God: And they besought him, saying: If thou cast us out, suffer us to go our way into The prayer of the 〈◊〉 the herd of swine. In the very same manner as they are compelled to entreat & beseech jesus Christ, & to confess him, so shall they be compelled to bow the knee unto him. And if they did that unto him whilst that he was yet mortal & passable, what shall they do now, sith that he sitteth immortal & glorious at the right hand of God his father? And if they do beseech or pray to jesus Christ, may they not as well bow the knee unto him? In the sense the ancients have understanded, & Theophilactus expoundeth it expressly of the devils, Theophi. in Epist. phi●. 2. which shallbe constrained to give glory & honour unto jesus Christ. Eusebius. If thou hast escaped that place, I believe, that thou shalt not escape so easily of the like, written in the Apocalypse, where it is said: And all the creatures which are in heaven and on the earth, & under the earth, & in the The place of the Apoc. 5. 〈◊〉 13 sea, and all that are in them herded I, saying: blessing, he nor, glory & power be unto him that sitteth upon the seat, and The praise given to God of all creatures. unto the lamb for evermore. Thou canst not here say but that it is spoken of the true praise & of the true honour which is due unto God, the which the devils, nor the reprobate cannot give unto him. And yet nevertheless it is here said, that there be creatures under the earth, which do give unto him that praise, which can be none other than the souls of purgatory, Theophilus. You do lack but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments. Dost thou not see that the holy Ghost useth an enumeration, by the which he witnesseth, that all creatures in all places do praise their creator, & jesus Christ the true lamb, by whom all is restored? But being not contented to use an universal proposition, he also wilt by enumeration of creatures in particular, conclude that in general, because that that manner of speaking doth better express the thing, & doth amplify better the glory of God, declaring that there is not an element, nor any place where God is not praised and magnified, from the highest part of heaven unto the bottom of the earth & from every part of the world. For as he writeth, that the heavens declare the glory of God, & the firmament showeth forth his handy works. Also there is not a creature whatsoever it be, neither Psal. 19 a. 〈◊〉 in Heaven nor in the air, nor in the water, nor in the earth, nor under the earth, not so much as an Ant or Pismer, neither a worm, plant, tree, nor stone, which preacheth not, singeth, praiseth, & magnifieth according to his nature, in his manner. Eusebius. How can the mute and dumb creatures speak, being without reason and insensible, which have no sense, reason, understanding nor speech? It must needs be that we do understand that of men. Theophilus. How can the Angels & the blessed souls, speak and praise God, which have no mouth as we have? And how can the Firmament, the Sun, the Moon, and The speaking of the mute creatures & those that have no bodies. the stars declare and show forth the glory of God, and declare his virtue and power? for they have no soul, nor mouth as men have. Yet they have nevertheless their mouth agreeing to their nature, for to tender unto God the honour which appertaineth unto him. Even so aught we to understand of all other creatures, which are all the lively Images of God, which declare unto us those marvels, and do speak better having no mouth, than the Images which have mouths and speak not, and which cry not thorough their throat. And therefore how many creatures Psal. 1●5. b. 5 may there be under the earth which do praise God in that manner? And notwithstanding that the dampened and reprobate do not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect, yet they are nevertheless constrained to praise & glorify him against their wills, and they cannot do nor speak any thing which serveth not unto his honour and glory. Eusebius. Sigh that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my hands all the arguments that I have against thee, I will display at once that which remains behind. What will't thou say upon that other place taken from the same book? in which is spoken of the holy Apo● 21. g, 27 city of the celestial Jerusalem, after this manner: there shall enter into it no unclean thing. To which agreeth that which is written in Esay. This shallbe called the holy way, Esa. 35. d. 8. no unclean person shall go thorough it. Theophilus. What will't thou that I should answer thee upon the same. There is none that will deny, but that he must be purged from all his sins, before he can come unto the eternal life. For flesh and blood cannot 1. Cor. 15. ss. 5● inherit the kingdom of God. But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory, but by the blood of jesus Christ, by the which we are washed & purified, when thorough Apo. 1, b. 5 Act. 15. b. 9 john. 15 a. 3 the word of god & thorough faith our hearts are sprinkled. Therefore said jesus Christ unto his disciples: you are clean because of the words which you have herded. We are purged, when we obtain remission of our sins, and that the Lord forgetteth them, not imputing them unto us and remembering them, according to that which is written. Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven Psa. 32. a. 2 & whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth no sin. Thomas. I do greatly fear Eusebius, sith that thou art already come unto the apocalypse but that thou will't be by and by at the end of thy knowledge. For that is the end of the new Testament, and of all the canonical Scripture. hilarius. I believe that he hath conducted and lead us even unto the apocalypse for to bury his Purgatory to the end we may help him to sing his Requiescant in pace. For I believe that he will dye here, and that he shall Requiescant in pace of purgatory. pass no further. Your Doctors do writ that after the judgement, Purgatory and hell shall be all one. But I believe that that Purgatory which thou wouldst have proved in the apocalypse, to be none other thing then those ponds of fire and brimstone, in which the beast which The wells and ponds of fire & brimstone. Apoc. 19 d. hundred hath engendered Purgatory, is cast with her false Prophets into the eternal bottomless pit. Theophilus. What sayest thou Eusebius to the same? Hast thou no more refuge? Or whether thy arriere word be altogether disconfited? Eusebius. I have no more wherewith to revenge me, The place of the. 〈◊〉 Pet. 3. d, 19 except I show forth that place of Saint Peter, which witnesseth that the spirit of jesus Christ preached unto the spirits which were in prisen: By the which prison I cannot understand but Purgatory or the Limb. ●r●●ching to 〈◊〉. At the leastwise it must be that thou dost allow the one or the other. Theophilus. That objection cometh well to purpose, for to answer also to the question of Thomas, and to those which would have a preaching of the Gospel in the other world: Thomas. I am very glad that thou hast not forgotten it, and that the occasion serveth so well. Theophilus. But before I will enter into it, I will again admonish thee, that I will not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead, besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressly revealed unto me. Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those esteem it to be true, yet nevertheless I shall not be of that opinion, that any person should trust unto it and that he should leave off to do his endeavour in this world, to seek jesus Christ: sith that the Scripture doth not promise unto us clearly any either remedy, nor any other preaching and revelation for our salvation after this life. Therefore I would gladly allow, in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory. For notwithstanding that he did believe that in the same one might be purged Advertisement. from his sins, yet nevertheless he saith, that it is most sure to govern himself so in this world, that one needeth not of that remedy in the other, but to have there his recourse and hope. Thomas. I am of thy opinion. But expound unto us at the lest the places, that one may allege them, to that purpose for to have the intelligence thereof. 1. Pet 3, d 18 Theophilus. That which hath most show is that which Eusebius hath touched, in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sins, the just for the unjust for to bring us to God and was killed, as pertaining to the flesh: But was quickened in the spirit. In which spirit he also went and preached unto the spirits that were in prison, which were in time passed disobedient, when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the days of No● etc, The other is by and by after, where he says, that the wicked 1. Pet. 4, b. 〈◊〉. shall give account unto him that is ready to judge quick and dead. For unto this purpose verily was the Gospel preached unto the dead, that they should be judged like other men, in the flesh, but should live before god in the spirit. Behold two places, after which many learned men have much travailed, and have expounded them many ways. Yet nevertheless it hath been most commonly taken for the Limb after that it was forged and invented, because that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower parts, to whom jesus Christ hath preached. Those there have understanded by those spirits, the souls of the ancient Fathers. By the prison, the Helles and the Limbs, in which they were detained. The others, which are so affectioned after the Purgatory, that there is not a place in all the Scripture, which they endeavour not to wrist & draw, either wrongfully or overthwartly, and have taken that prison for Purgatory, & the spirits, for the souls that are there. But these here have less show, and do put themselves more out of reason then the others. Chiefly, sith that there is none of the Ancients, that I know, not of those which have believed the Purgatory, that have understanded it after that manner, and which have alleged it to that purpose. Wherefore it is not needful to answer them any further. But for to come to the exposition of those places, I will first advertise you, that there are divers interpretations, the which I will recy●● some, to the end that thou shouldst not think that I do condemn all the others which have expounded it: Or that I am more arrogant than all men, and that I do attribute more to my sense and iudgdement, then to any other. If I define rashly of a thing, the which all the Expositors have found it so obscure and hard, that many among them have been constrained to confess that they cannot understand it. Then I will touch the divers expositions, which are more sufferable. Afterwards I will signify unto you that which I think to be most proper. There are some which do not understand that Saint The first exposition. Peter speaketh here but of the living unto whom jesus Christ hath preached the gospel, aswell in his own proper person, as by his Prophets and Apostles, which have all spoken by his spirit. Wherefore one may well say, that jesus Christ hath preached unto them, sith that it was not they that did speak, but jesus Christ who by his holy spirit did speak in them. Those here do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphor and by an Allegory, and do understand by the spirits which were in prison, the dead, unto whom it is said in the chapter following that the Gospel was preached, saying that saint Peter by that second place expoundeth the first. Now by these dead, unto whom hath been preached, they understand not the dead: but do take that word, by a Metaphor, understanding The living called dead. by the dead, the sinners which are dead thorough sin: the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison, because that the soul which is dead thorough sin, is held by the same, as a prisoner which is in bonds and fetters, in the stocks and in prison. Those which do expound it after that manner, notwithstanding that they do accord as touching the interpretation of the words, yet nevertheless they do a little differ, touching that spirit, by the which jesus Christ went and preached unto the spirits which were in prison. For some do expound What is the spirit which hath preached to the dead. it for the manifestation of jesus Christ which hath been before his coming. Others, for that which hath followed his coming. These here do understand by the spirit the holy Ghost which jesus Christ sent, A &. 2. 〈◊〉 4 and gave unto his apostles, by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the jews and gentiles, which before were rebellious and disobedient unto the word of God. ●phe 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, 2 Wherefore he calleth them rebelling and disobedient spirits, detained in the captivity of error and of sin. For although that jesus Christ ascended into heaven, and hath taken his body from us, yet nevertheless he is always Mat, 18 ●ohn, 20 1, Cor. 12. among us, by the virtue of his spirit, by the which he speaketh in his Apostles, Ministers, and evangelical Pastors, and preacheth and admonisheth always the sinners, and toucheth their heart, and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his, for to make them enter into his Church, & for to save the elect in the same, as those which were saved in the Ark of Noe. There is nothing in this ●enes. 7. 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 1, pet. 2. 〈◊〉. 5. exposition contrary to the Analogy of the faith, and the sense of the Scriptures. But yet nevertheless it seemeth to some to be a little allegorised and vyolated and to stray a little too far front the Apostolycal simplicity. Although that it be tolerable and Christian like. Others do understand by the spirit of Christ, his eternal virtue, by the which he hath been long time agone the Saviour and judge of the world, as he is at this present, the Saviour by the water, as he doth now by the baptism. And therefore they do understand that he is go by his spirit, by his divine virtue, & by his word, thorough out the world, as he passed thorough out Egypt, declaring his power among the Egyptians & saving the Israelites. as much hath he Exo. 12. & 13 Genes. done in the time of the flood: and doth yet at this day. For he declareth his judgement unto the wicked, & hath drowned them in the flood, even as now he declareth it unto all, to the end that his servants may be saved in the Ark of the Church, and the others drowned by the judgement of God. Therefore is No called the herald The herold of righteousness. of righteousness for to declare, that by the same, the spirit of jesus Christ declareth unto men the righteousness and judgement of God, as a king declareth the war by an herald of arms, unto those which do rebel against him, and refuse peace. And the word which Saint Peter 2. Pet. 2. 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, used when he said, that jesus Christ hath preached unto the spirits, doth not signify only to preach, but also to publish a commandment and an ordinance as an Herald. And that word herald, the which Saint Peter used speaking of No, is taken of the very same, of which he useth, saying that jesus Christ hath preached unto the spirits. And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits, they The spirit's p●●so●e●s, think that he did it having regard to their thoughts and affections, being possessed with evil spirits. And do build their interpretation upon that which is written: God did see that all the thoughts of man's heart was given Genes. 6. a, 5 unto evil. And upon that which Saint Paul (speaking of the power which is given unto him by the ministering of 2, Cor. 〈◊〉 b. 5 the Gospel) saith that it is for to beaten down every high thing, which exalteth itself against God, and for to bring into captivity the thoughts and spirits of men to the obedtence of Christ, delivering them from the subjection of the wicked spirits which do hold captive the spirits, and understanding of the reprobate. They do understand then by the spirits which were in prison, those which were in the spiritual prison, or whose spirits were detained in captivity and prison, by the wicked spirits. They have yet regard unto that that the scripture calleth those Genes. 6. a. 2 which perished by the flood, the sons of God, which did see the daughters of men: and to that which is there written, that the Lord did strike and destroy every soul and taketh from the mids of them every spirit, and that he hath said in threatening them, that he will take from them his spirit. For that cause they think that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits, because that whilst that their spirits did sleep and were detemed by the wicked spirits, they were overcome and drowned by the waters of the sloude, and the spirit was taken from them, as to him which was strangled and c●oked in the water. They also have regard to that, that that word which Saint Peter hath used, which we do interpret prison, doth also signify, the watch and ward which is kept in the night: Insomuch that they think that Saint Peter had regard unto the parable of jesus Christ, which admonisheth every one to watch, as the faithful servant looking for his master, who knoweth not what hour he will come, whether it be in the second, third, or fourth The sense and meaning of the words of Saint Peter. watch of the night: and for a full resolution, they will fall upon this sense: Although that jesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh, body and humanity, yet nevertheless he is quickened by the spirit, that is to say, by his eternal virtue and divine power, by the which he is not only risen from death, but also hath given unto us his quickening flesh, and hath turned death into life, quickening by the same all those which were dead thorough sin, ●ohn, 6 And to the end that none should despise jesus Christ, because that he is dead and was crucified as a vile and an abject person, he declared that he is so dead, that there is no life but in his death: and that none can live but by him: and that he is not only to day, but everlasting, and that by the same spirit and divine and eternal virtue he Heb. 13. b. 〈◊〉 is already an other time come unto the world and hath judged and condemned the rebels, the proud and perverse spirits, oppressed with wicked spirits, which were not under their keeping, but did sleep, not thinking on the judgement of god, until such time as the flood overwhelmed and drowned them, as he doth yet at this present, by Genes, 6, & 7 that same spirit, by the which he judgeth an condemneth the world, and saveth and quickeneth his elect even as he did in the time of Noe. hilarius. It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated & far fetched, nevertheless it cometh not evil to purpose, but seemeth to agree well enough to the letter of the text of S. Peter. Theophilus. Because that the place is obscure & hard, I dare not to define & pronounce of it rashly. But I would gladly put forth these expositions, to that end you may judge of them, & for to awake the spirits, for to find out some better thing. Nevertheless I think that this here is the simplest, that is to say, that S. Peter willing to show forth the efficacy & virtue of jesus Christ & of his another exposition death and passion, witnesseth that it was so great, that the living have not only felt & perceived it but the dead also, unto whom it is come. But in what manner or after unto the dead what sort? How is it communicated unto us, and all his gifts and graces but by his spirit and divine virtue? Even as then by his spirit he hath given unto us his quickening flesh, which is unto us spirit and life, and hath john, 6, 〈◊〉. ●3 communicated unto us his virtue, so hath he manifested himself by the same spirit unto the dead, both during their lice and after their death. For it is said of Abraham, that he did see the day of the Lord, and rejoiced. john, 8. 〈◊〉. 56. If he hath then already during this mortal life, felt the efficacy and virtue of jesus Christ, long time before that he did offer his eternal sacrifice, we cannot doubt, but that he and all the others, which were in his bosom, have felt it more fully, when he did manifest himself more fully. By this we may well understand, whereto this place can serve to prove Purgatory. For if the virtue of the death and passion of jesus Christ be of such efficacy, that it goeth unto the dead, what need have we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead, and to apply unto them the merits of jesus Christ? sith The predication to the dead. that none can do it but he himself, by the virtue of his spirit which quickeneth the quick and the dead. Now he calleth that manifestation predication: not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth, towards the dead, such as is among the living, but because that even as by the preaching and evangelical ministering, jesus Christ is manifested unto us and do feel the virtue and efficacy of his death and passion. Also the spirits of the dead have there's, but in their manner, and such as appertaineth unto them: even as we do understand that God gave himself to his Angels to be known, and to make them taste of his bounty and goodness, but by an other mean then unto us, because that their condition was contrary. We must not then dream The descending of jesus Christ into hell. out a Limb and a material prison and a local descending of the spirit of jesus Christ into hell: and a preaching such as we have. But we must understand all those things spiritually. For as it is not needful that jesus Christ should descend locally from heaven, for to make us feel his virtue, so it is not necessary to descend into hell. For the virtue of his spirit is such, that it filleth heaven and earth, and is spread abroad every where. hilarius, As I think, our dreaming Theologians had very much leisure, when they settled themselves to dispute, whether the soul of jesus Christ did suffer in the hell. Amongst the which, some of them are found to be of opinion, that he did. Theophilus. If they had well understanded that which jesus Christ said unto the thief: This day shalt thou Lue, 13. ff. ●3 be with me in Paradise, and how jesus Christ descended into hell, when his soul was sorrowful, and in anguish, even unto the death, and that he hath drunken up the cup of the wrath and furor of God, and hath born his judgement and our malediction and curse, and the damnation due unto our sins, insomuch that he was strooken & beaten of God, & hath suffered death, after which he descended into the sepulchre or grave, they should not have needed again to make the soul of jesus Christ to descend from Paradise, in which it was, for to go into hell. For it is sufficiently given unto the spirits of his elect to understand, which have received consolation, and unto those of the reprobate, declaring unto them from what goodness they were deprived without descending or ascending. Eusebius. To what purpose then doth he speak of the prison? and what other thing can he understand but the Limb? of which it is also spoken in Zachery, saying: I have let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water. The Li●●e. Za●h, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 Theophilus. By the Words of Zachery the Lord giveth us to understand none other thing, but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Zion, he will deliver his people that are captive, kept in the bottom of all miseries. By the prisoners, he understandeh his people that be in The prisoners. The wells. capti●itie, by the evils he understandeth a captivity, a goulse and bottom of all misery, from which it is not possible for them to come out by any means if God do not deliver them himself. Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth: yea yet without water, in which one cannot swim: to the end they may the better know their misery, and the grace and mercy of God towards them. When S. Peter did speak of the prison of the spirits, The prison he did it for to amplify the better the grace of the Gospel, comparing those which were under the servitude & bondage of the law, & under those shadows & figures unto those which shall be in a prison in respect of those which have received the light of the gospel. But we must not therefore dream, that the bosom of Abraham was a prison, or a Castle, as we have already declared in the other disputation. But we must be advised & know that those things are spoken by a comparison, as we have already declared the examples. Thomas. It seemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not, but of the reprobate. For after that he hath spoken of those spirits which were in prison, he addeth which late or sometune were rebels. Theophilus. 〈◊〉. Cor. He speaketh generally of all. For even as the Gospel is a sweet savour of life, to life unto those which are saved, and a savour of death, to death unto those that perish, so the death of jesus Christ bringeth a great rejoicing, both to the Angels and to all the blessed spirits, and more greater confusion and grievous damnation unto the wicked and reprobate. But after that he spoke generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts, but stayed himself only to the disobedient and rebels, because that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions. Wherefore for to comfort the faithful, he Gene●. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 s●ayed to declare unto them the virtue which jesus Christ hath, for to save his, as he saved No and his family in the Ark: and for to punish the wicked and persecutors, as he hath drowned the Giants by the flood. For that cause he stayed to declare the judgement of god, as in the chapter following, saying: that jesus Christ shall judge the 1. P●●. 〈◊〉. b. 〈◊〉. quick and the dead. For unto this purpose verily was the Gospel preached unto the dead, that they should be judged like other men in the flesh, but should live before God in the spirit. Thomas. By that which thou sayest, thou dost declare unto us that that place, concludeth not that there is any other Limb nor Purgatory, than such which thou hast showed unto us from the beginning. But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we have spoken which aught to be done unto the spirits after this life. Theophilus, First of all as touching those which are Those which have not believed in this world. departed out of this world, without having one grain of that seed of the fear of God, but have altogether resisted his spirit, and the natural light and knowledge that he hath given unto them, or at the preaching of his gospel we cannot leave unto them any preaching, nor any other remedy after their death, for their salvation: except we will fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists. john. 〈◊〉 c, 1● For it is written: He which believeth not in the Son of God is already condemned. But if it be a question of the elect, which have had already in this world some grain of the seed of God, which have walked in his fear, although that they have been yet wrapped in many errors. and darkness, there is an other consideration. Not that I do understand that the gospel is preached unto them after they are departed out of this life, otherwise, saying that they shall have more full knowledge of that, that they have only here known, as amongst the midst of darkness. For if they be the sons of God, the seed of god 1. john. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 9 Cornelius Act. 10 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. which is in them shall save them: As we may judge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion. Before that he had herded the preaching of Saint Peter, he had not perfect knowledge of jesus Christ. He was yet a Panim: but he was not therefore altogether without the seed of the fear of GOD, nor without some beginning of faith & obscure knowledge of JESUS CHRIST: Or otherwise his prayers and alms deeds should not have been approved of God, whom Heb. 11, b, 6. one cannot please without faith. If he had then died before that S. Peter was come unto him, I do not think therefore, that he had been altogether rejected and forsaken of God: and that that knowledge sufficed him not to salvation: or that he had not given himself more fully to be known of him either by some divine inspiration: or by some other means, such as it pleaseth him: yea, in the Article of the death, or at his last gasp, rather than to suffer him to perish. As we may presume as well of the jews, as of the paynim, who before the coming and manifestation of jesus Christ in the flesh, had the law of God written in their hearts: notwithstanding that they have Rome 2. 〈◊〉. 1●. not had altogether so full knowledge of jesus Christ, as we have at this present. For although that the knowledge What knowledge of God is necessary to salvation. of jesus Christ be unto all men necessary to salvation, it followeth not therefore, that none can be saved, if it be not full and perfect in him. For who ever had in this world so full knowledge of him, and a faith so perfect, that he had nothing to say? There was never such a one found in this world. It sufficeth then that that knowledge & faith, hath taken root in us, & that we do travail as much as we can possible to augment and increase it. And afterwards when we shall do our endeavour, as much as we can, the Lord which hath begun his work in us will bring it to pass, and will supply and recompense thorough his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we have received of him (even as he doth of our works, which are all imperfect, because of the imperfection of our faith) so that there be not despising, and to great negligence in us, which cannot be but to the reprobate. Even then as GOD, by his great mercy supporteth the imperfection of our faith, and ceaseth nor leaveth off to receive us for his children, so that the seed and the root of the same be quickened in us, so I cannot uphold and maintain by any witness of the holy Scripture, that any should have just occasion to hope for salvation after this life, which from the same shall be departed without any knowledge of God & of jesus Christ his son. Wherefore I do hold me to that which the Scripture hath revealed unto me, & do leave the rest with the secret judgements of God, which are hide from us and covered. But yet nevertheless I think that it is always most sure, to travail very much after the knowledge of the truth, whilst that we be in this world, that we may have so much as is needful for our salvation: and that our despising be not any cause unto us of damnation. And if we do our endeavour, we are very sure that the Lord will not fail us, and that he will not hide himself or withdraw himself from us, if we do seek him and desire to approach and come unto him. For it is impossible, that he will hide himself from those whom he hath choose, & whom he hath purposed to glorify, and to make them blessed by his knowledge. And notwithstanding that we have not all of us, so great and high knowledge of him, nor so many of his gi●tes and graces as his Prophets and Apostles, yet nevertheless he will give us as much as shall be necessary and expedient for us: wherewith we aught to content ourselves. Behold that that I had to say upon that point, and whereto I will stay myself, without seeking any further. Thomas. And I with thee: And praised be God for that I did find your company, in which I have herded so many good doctrines, and debating of so many good points of religion, of which I was before in great doubt, & had my conscience much troubled. But now, the grace of God hath resolved me, and hath set my conscience at rest. And thou Eusebius, hast thou changed thy opinion? Eusebius. I do yield myself: and do confess that I can no longer withstand the truth: and do tender thanks unto GOD which hath delivered me from those great darkness, errors and abuses, in which I was fallen into and drowned. For I was in great danger to be altogether lost, if God thorough his grace had not retired and pulled me back. And so much as I did think that I was in the right way, so much was the danger the greater. Thomas. I am very glad to hear such words of thee. For he that would have sworn unto me at the beginning when I did see thee so contrary unto Theophilus & unto hilarius, that thou shouldst have come unto this resolution, I would never have believed it. Eusebius. No more would I. But that which is impossible to men, is possible to God, who hath the hearts of Mat. 1●. d, ●6 Pro. ●1. a, 1. his in his hand, and changeth them as it pleaseth him. And therefore we aught never to vispaire of the conversion or of the salvation of any man, whilst that we do see some little spark of the fear of God to shine in them, until such time as we do there openly see resistance against the known truth and the spirit of God. hilarius. I have not lost altogether the hope. For I was well assured, that thou wouldst not resist the truth thorough malice, but only thorough ignorance. And God will not leave such men willingly always in error, but will draw them out of it in the time that he hath ordained: As we have the example of Saul the great persecutor, whom he hath made an Apostle and Evangelist of Saul● being a persecutor, made an apostle Act 9 〈◊〉. 1. the Doctrine which he blasphemed, and hath turned a mad Wolf, into the most excellentest Pastor that ever was in his Church. But sith that God hath showed unto us that grace and favour, that we be all falled into a good concord, and unity, and that he hath converted and turned our war, into so great a peace, we aught as well to remember to prepare the Funerals for the The burning of Purgatory. Limb and purgatory, sith that they are dead and ready to be buried. But let us be advised who shall furnish the funeral pomp, and the Suffrages and Obsequys, and who shall do the office. Then must ring the Bells Thomas, and Eusebius shall carry the Cross: and Theophilus the holy Water stop: and I will carry the sprinkle and will do the office, and the Priests and Moonkes shall mourn. Thomas. I need not to ring the bells, for his death will be sufficiently published abroad without that: And the Priests will soon know of it without Bells, when they shall see their Kitchen to be so cold, and that the fire shall be altogether extinct and put out. You say in speaking of the lamentations which the Priests do make after the dead, that they do make piteous moan about them, as to the outward appearance by writhing their mouths, but do laugh inwardly in their hearts. But I do not doubt, that in this forrowe and lamentation here, that they will not do it feignedly, but that they will weep earnestly. For they did never bury parents nor friends, whose death was so dear unto them, and which did bring unto them more greater sorrow nor damage. hilarius. I do greatly fear lest it happen unto them as to the labourer of whom Esope speaketh off. He rehearseth a fable of a woman who had newly buried her The fable of the feigned mourning of a labourer. husband, who did go every day to his grave to weep and lament. Now there was a labourer which ploughed in a field which was not far from the Churchyard. Wherefore he seeing that woman, and was in love with her, insomuch that he left his Oxen, and went also unto the grave, and being there set down, did also weep with the woman. When the woman asked him wherefore he so lamented, he answered her: because says he, that I have buried a fair and an honest woman, for whom I am much sorrowful and sad. But after that I have well wept and lamented, I am eased of my sorrow. And the woman said unto him: Even so is it chanced to me of my husband. Whereupon the labourer answered unto her. For as much then as both of us are fallen into one misfortune, wherefore may we not mary together? For I will love thee, as I loved my first wife, and thou shalt leave me in like manner as thou didst love thy first husband. By those words ●ee he did put that into the woman's head, in so much that they accorded together. But whilst that he used that deceit and played the Fox with the poor woman, there came a thief more wily than he, which stolen away his Oxen and carried them away. When he was returned and that he found not his Oxen, he did begin to weep and lament, and to strike his breast very bitterly. The woman also came: and when she had found him weeping and lamenting, she said unto him Dost thou weep yet. And he answered unto her: now I weep earnestly. Before his tears were feigned and did but weep outwardly, and laughed in his heart as our Priests do at the Funerals and Obsequys of the dead. But I am altogether certain, that there shall be no jesting nor Crocodiles tears, in the burying of their purgatory. For as soon as he shall be dead, the Mass shall not live long after. And so they shall have two bodies which will bring unto them great sorrow and heaviness. But I believe that they will not bestow so much money about them, for to make their good deeds, as they have got and heaped together by their means. But let us suffer them to weep their fill, as well as they have made others weep, & let us sing when they weep. Nevertheless I will yet do for them this service, to make for them a lamentation and complaint, to move them the better to pity and compassion upon that poor dead body. For me thinks that I do hear them already lament in this wise. Now let us lament we Moonkes and we Nuns. Priests, bawds and whores, with our bastard sons. For now the hot Furnaces quenched are that have made us fat with their dainty fare. Now we may count ourselves in evil case for the good time we had hath lost his place. And dead is he that did heap up in chest, Money wherewith we made our Gaudemus. Alas he is now at peace and at rest, Wherefore let us sing an other Oremus. Let us suffer them to sing that in steed of Vigiles and of Libera me, and of their Fidelium, and I will make his Epitaph, which shall serve him for his latter Oremus. O gentle sir john, who of Purgatory Hast got so much of silver and gold: Make speedily to be known to all of the Popry, To sing Requiem aeternam for his sweet soul. By him an Epicures life thou didst lead, But now alas he is dead an hath no place: And with him thy earthly kingdom is dead. Sing for him then Requiescant in pace. Thomas. Amen. Now sith that he is buried let us go to Supper, that he may have also his funeral Supper, and that we may as well banquet as the priests in those of the dead in the days of their anniversaries & years mind. hilarius. Let us go. FINIS. ¶ A Table of the principal matters of the third part of the Christian disputations. A. ABsolution of the quick and the dead. 275. Advertisement. 293. Against the Originists. 272. Alexander. 283. Among whom are reputed the souls of Purgatory. 274. Anabaptists. 238. Ansegisus. 234 Angels dare not curse the devils. 285. Answer to the place of the Psalms. 263. Antichrist. 276. Antiochus. 215. apocrypha what it is. 216. Apostles of the circumcision. 257. Apothegma. 211 Archesilaus'. 257. Argument a posteriori. 279. Ashes of Pope Boniface. 280. Augmentation of the felicity to Angels 246. Authority of the book of the Maccabees. 213. Authority of the Prophets & Apostles. 217. Authority of the Scripture. 217. Authority of the church. 217. B. baptize with the holy Ghost and fire. 235 baptize two times in the year. 239 Baptism delayed. 239. Baptism only of jesus Christ. 256 Baptism of women. 241 Baptism of water, whether it be necessary to salvation. 232. Baptism of devotion. 233. Baptism of blood. 237. To be baptized for the dead 290 Beginning of the judgement of God. 247. Beginning of Hell and Paradise. 248. Bonaventure deified and made God. 283. Boniface the eight. 280. Books Canonical. 216. Books of Thoby. 262. Book second of the Maccabees. 217 Books Canonical and apocrypha 214 Books of joseph. 214 To be born again of water how it is be understanded. 234. Bosom of Abraham. 225 bow the knee. 291 Bulls doing all things. 284 Bulls in Purgatory. 277. Burying of Purgatory. 299. Burying of the conscience. 277. C. Candle before. 268 Canons of the Apostles. 215 Cathecismenes. 237 Circumcision deferred. 229 Christ the restorer of all things. 247 Christ our pledge. 215. Church of Lausanne. 256. One only and eternal Church. 244. Character indebilis. 276. Charles. 256. Clement the sixt. 283. Clocks of Purgatory. 286. Comparison of the divine and humane doctrine. 264. Comperison of the life present and that to come 246. Condition of the children of the christions. 230. Conscience. 247. Conscientia mill testes. 247. Consolation in Abraham's bosom. 231. Contrarieties of Canons. 285 Cornelius. 298. Counsel of Africa. 242. Cream Papistical. 276. Creators of the Creator: 281. Custom of the true & false doctors. 266. D. Day of the Lord 264. Dead do bite. 274. The dead how they are punished in their successors. 253 Degrees of the judgement of god. 249 Descending of Christ into hell. 296. Difference between the Limb, Purgatory and Hell. 22●. Difference between the fire of Purgatory and Hell. 221. Difference between the old and new Testament. 244 Difference between the dead under the old and new Testament. 244 Dispensation of the treasure of the church. 284 Disposition of this Dialogue. 262 Diversity of pardons. 271 Doctrine troublesome. 259 Doctors scholastical doubting of the bulls. 284. Dreams of the Saints and of the raving Theologasters. 213 Dreamers or sleepers. 249. E. Eccius. 262. Increase of glory in the other life. 245. En●ant how it shall bear the iniquity of his father. 253. Error about the Sacraments. 238. Error touching the Supper. 234. Error of the Bohemians & Morions. 234. Estate of the souls after the separation from the body. 249 Eternity temporal. 272. Evangelists of the Pope. 287. Example of the long days in Purgatory. 286. Example of judas Machabeus. 251. Example of the mercy of God. 220. Example. 212. 286 Example of Friar Roger. 277. Examples that the Saints aught not to be all drawn into a general consequence. 243. Example of Ziphora. 243. Exposition of the place of Saint john ca 3. 234. Exposition of the schoolmen upon the pl●ce of Saint john. ca 3. 236 Exposition of the place of Thoby. 262. Exposition of the place of the 1. Cor. ca 3. 263. Exposition Allegorical. 268 Excommunicate the dead. 282. Excommunicate the doctrine of the dead. 285 Ex puris negativis nihill sequitur. 271. F. Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus. 221. Fable of the feigned mourning of a labourer. 300. Fable of Gregory. 221. Faith of Simon. 240. Fire. 265. Foundation of the order of the Mendicants. 287. Friar Christopher. 255. Friends of the kitchen. 223. Furyed and she devils. 248. G. Gates of dreams. 212 Gate of y●ory and of horn. 213. Gentiles saved without Circumcision. 229. Geryon: 258. Gibellinus. 280. God of Hypocrites. 22●. God compared to tyrants. 252. Good works. 223. Grace half. 251. Great Lockyer. 276. 2●5 Greatness of the pains of Purgatory. 221. Gregory the first made no mention of bulls for the dead. 284. H. Half a saviour. 251 Hangmen of Infants. 238. Harman condemned by the Pope. 282 Saint Harman. 282 Hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists. 224. Helindius. 270 Henticus 4. 282 Hercules. 258. Herostratus. 256. Herostratus burned the Temple of Diana. 256. Herald of righteousness. 29●. Holy Ghost a fire. 235. Holy Ghost water. 235. Honour to the sacraments. 2●9. Hostensis contrary to the bulls. 284. hypocrites envious of the grace of god 220 Hydra. 258. I Ignorance excuseth 〈◊〉. 289. Image of death. 250 Indians. 235. Incredulity of Thomas. 212. Insufficiency of the book of the Maccabees for to prove Purgatory. 2●1 〈◊〉 of saints for the dead. 277. joseph author of the book of the Maccabees. 214. Isaac and Ishmael. jubilee of the Pope. 283. jubilee of God. 283. judgement of the Scriptures to whom it appertaineth. 216. judgement by the word. 211. judgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians. 288. judgement of saint Jerome touching the books of the Maccabees. 214 justice and mercy of God. 222 K. Keys of saint Peter & of the Pope. 276. Keys of hell. 279 Key changed. 276. Kindred's of Loth. 288 L. Languages of the Prophets. 217 Our Lady of Butter. 241. Legends of Saints. 215. Legittimation. 216. Lembe. 226. Lembus. 226. Limbus. 225. Saint jews canonised. 282 Licence Theological. 225 Limb of the Infants destroyed. 238. Limb of the Infants. 226. Limb of the Fathers. 244. Limb. 219. 297 Limb what it signifieth. 225. Living called dead. 294 Lud● seculares. 283. M. Madiani●s papistical. 287. Maccabees. 215. Man making Gods. 280. Manner to know God. 279. Mark of conscience. 277 Mark of the great whore. 277. Mar●●●nists. 242. Martyrs before the coming of jesus Christ. 21●. Masses for the little Infants. 259. Mass of Requiem for the Saints. 255 Man's reason the foundation of purgatory. 222. Men that are dead, Gods to the Idolaters. 282. Mercury. 269. Ministers of Sacraments. 241. Moonkes dead to the world. 274. Mortui non mordent. 274. N. Necessity. 228. New Litany. 255. New transfiguration of Satan. 258. O. Objection. 2●3. 222. 232. Objection of the necessity of baptism. 237. Office of a lieutenant. 27●. Offices Ecclesiastical. 241. The only death of jesus Christ satisfieth. 220. One only God. 280. Opinion of Lombard. 227 P. Pagatory. 276. Pains of the Limb. 224 pain for satisfaction. 220. pain and fault. 251. Pains of purgatory. 224. Pardons to whom they profit. 285. Pelagians. 239. Poena damni & poena sensus. 224. Philip king of France. 280. Pickelockes. 286. Place of purgatory. 279 Place of Saint Luke. ca 12. 287. Place of the Acts. ca 2. 289. Place of Saint Matthew ca 12. decl●●ed. 271. Place of the Apoc. ca 5. 292. Place of the 1. Corinthians. ca 15. 290. Place of the Philippians. ca 2. 291. Place of Saint Peter. 1. ca 3. 293. Place of Thoby contrary to the priests. 262 Place of Saint Matthew. ca 5. expounded. 267. Place of the second book of the Maccabees, serveth nothing at all for purgatory. 219. Plays and games of the paynim. 283 Pope God, and more than God. 278 Pope Clement the sixt, cited by Friar walter being dead. 286. Pope lieutenant of Saint Peter. 274 Pope more puissant than Christ. 252. Pope hath more power than the saints. 278. Pope judge of the quick and the dead 284. Power of the keys and indulgences for the dead. 274. Power of the keys. 274. Power of the keys lymitted in this world. 284 Power to give pardons lymitted. 285. Power of the dead upon the Popes. 286. Praise given to God for all creatures. 292. Prayers for the resurrection. 252 Prayers for the Saints that be in Paradise. 255 Prayer for the dead how that may be done. 253 Prayer for the resurrection of the body and the coming of Christ. 254. Prayers of the devils. 291. Predication to the dead. 273. 293. 296. ●he Priests or women Priests. 242. Priesthood of the dead. 276. Prison. 297. Prisoners. 29● Prochet Archbishop of Genes. 280. Propositions equipolents. 271. The latter Prophets. 217. Proverb common. 211. 267 Privilege. 220. Punishment upon those that do reject the Gospel. 289. Punishment of the elect with the reproreprobate. 188. Punishment of sins. 222. Purgatory the nurse of sins. 222 Purgatory by what reason it is builded. 219. Purgatory before the coming of Christ. 219. Purgatory of purses. 276. Purgatory for the body. 258. Q. Question of the Infants of the Hebrews dead without circumcision. 226. Question Theological. 230. R. Rage of Pope Stephen against Formosus. 281. Raymond. 251. Rebellion and despising the commandments of God. 223 Reconciliation fraternal. 269. Regeneration. 234. Regula. 267. Renumeration of good deeds. 222. Reward of foolish builders. 26●. Requ●escant in pace in Purgatory. 293. De Roma the defiler of the faith. 18● S. Sacrifice of Christ eternal. 24●. Salvation without exterior Sacraments. 229. Salvation without Baptism. 237. Salvation ly●● to the elements. 233 Salvation without visible Baptism. 213. Salvation by piruiledge. 220. Sara and Agar. 256. Saved by fire. 265. Saul a persecutor made an Apostle. 299. See God before and behind. 279. Seignory of jesus Christ. 291 Sense and meaning of the words of S. Peter. 1. Epist. Cap. 3. 296. Sense of S. Mat. words. Cap. 5. 270. Sense of the words of S. Luc. Cap. 11. 270. Sense of the words of jesus Christ upon the 5. Cap of Saint Mat. 269. Sense of the parable. 270. Sentence of Saint Augustine touching the children that are dead without baptism. 238. Sergeants of Purgatory. 268. Sergius and Formosus. 281 Shed out one's bread and wine upon the graves of the just. 262 Sichimites. 230 Sign to judge the true and false Prophets. 258. Signs and figures for the things signed and figured. 240 Silla and Marius. 281. syllogism. 178 Signification of Limb. 225. Sim●n Peter. 276 Sin against the holy Ghost. 272 Sin to death. 256. Sin original. 2●9. Sextus 283. Skirmishers. 257. Solution of Baptism. 237. S●●e of the Scripture & of the ancient Doctors touching the Sacramets'. 236 Stella Clericorum. 281. Speaking of dumb and incorporal creatures. 292 Spirit of Bacchus. 213. Spirits prisoners. 295 Spirit that preached to the dead what ●● it is. 294 Supper given to Infants by Cyprian and Origene. 234. Suburbs of hell and of Paradise. 226. T. Theology inferior and metaphisical. 257 Those which have not believed in this world. 298. Three sorts of baptism. 237 Treasure of the Church and the dispensation of the same. 284 Treasure of the Church. 264. Three hells. 224 Torments of the reprobate aggravated. 247. Transfer and give kingdoms. 280. True Gedeon. 287. Two ways. 225 V. Vainglory. 257. Valentinian. 233. Value of twelve thousand drams. 213 Virtue of jesus Christ come to the dead. 196. Virtue of the bulls and pardons. 283 Use of Allegories. 298. W. War of the Geants. 256. Wells. 297 Wells of Saint Patrick. 212. Wells of fire and brimstone. 293. What knowledge of God is necessary to salvation. 279, 298 Who do bow the knee in hell. 291. Witness of God. 218. Witness of conscience that he is a God. 248. Word of God judge and guide. 212. Works of hypocrites. 223. Worm of the conscience. 249. FINIS TABULAE. blazon or coat of arms of Thomas East of a black horse on a wreath atop a chevron between three horses 'heads erased, a crescent for difference (McKerrow 209) MIEULX VAULT MOURIR EN VERTV QVE VIURE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East, dwelling by Paul's wharf. 1579.