The first part of the Christian Instruction, and general sum of the doctrine, contained in the holy Scriptures, wherein the principal points of the Religion are familiarly handled by Dialogues, very necessary to be read of all Christians. Translated into English, by john Shute, according to the late Copy set forth, by th' author Master Peter Viret.  
1565.  ¶ overseen and perused, according to the order appointed, by the Queen's majesties Injunctions. 2. Timothe. 3. 
All Scripture divinely inspired of God, is profitable for doctrine, to improve, to amend, and to instruct in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, and prepared unto all good works.  No man that layeth his hand to the plough and looketh behind him, is meet for the kingdom of God. Luke. 9  printer's device of a bear and ragged staff within the garter, later associated with William Seres and Henry Denham (not in McKerrow) 
HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE  
¶ Imprinted at London, by john Day, dwelling over Aldersgate, beneath Saint martin's.   

❧ To the honourable the Lord Robert Dudley, Baron of Denbigh, Earl of Licester, Master of her majesties horse, and knight of th' order: and one of her highness privy Council. john Shute, wisheth health with increase of honour and Godly understanding,  
WHen Hannibal a manifold wintered soldier, a General of marvelous judgement and worthiness had given ear a while to Phormion the Philosopher, discoursing before him of martial matters, the duty of a General and office of each man that cometh to field: being demanded at length what he thought of him, whom the Lippewise men esteemed the wisest and learnedst of the world, answered: that fools he had heard many, but a more doting fool then this Phormion was, he never heard. It seemed to him very strange, that he which never went further than the school, never fought but with the rod, should give precepts to him that had spent all his life in martial affairs, obtained more vistories than he had red overthrows. And may it not (right honourable) seem as strange to your good Lordship, and be deemed of some others, as great dotage for me a simple soldier better practised abroad in martial matters, then furnished at home with cunning of the school: to deal with matters of high divinity? But I take not upon me to teach of myself: but to translate out of others, nor do I mean to brag of any skill, but to testify my good will employed to profit others: yet do I not think it a matter unmeet for my profession and calling, to know the truth of God's holy word, and to further in the same as many as I may. For requisite it is (as your honour and wisdom right well understandeth) all Christians to know their God: further if they will be the children of his kingdom to work through obedience to his will as the Apostle saith: their own salvation with trembling and with fear. A soldier is not excluded from this band, he must needs in this battle keep his order 
●hil. ●  and do (by grace) his uttermost endeavour: least the muster master, Christ do casse him, and so 
●osuc, 7  with great reproach devalize him. We read that for a little pilfering of a common soldier, the whole army of the Lord was in danger and like to have been defeated, But the blasphemy, incontinency, outrage, and such like that in many countries, in the wars in our days are used: are in deed a great occasion to procure and purchase those dreadful plagues, which we often see light upon nations. Wherefore that we may continue in quiet peace, & when occasion shall require, obtain Godly victories, expedient it were, and for my countries sake I wish, that our soldiers may be well instructed, in the knowledge and fear of God: so much the rather, for that their life is doubly incertain. Anacharsis thought sailors and such as travail by sea, to be rather of the number of the dead, then of the living: by cause that he which is in most assurance, is alway within eight or ten inches of his death. And is not a soldier every moment of an hour more near his bane, amid so many great shot, samll shot and other weapons? Wherefore it were good, not only for the parties them selves, but also for all Christian common wealths, if they which are called to serve in wars, were well instructed in the knowledge & fear of God, as god be thanked some of them are, I would think myself surerer in the company of five hundred well trained soldiers, which were instructed in the fear and love of God: then in that of xv. hundred which are as well trained and exercised in the use of their weapons as they, and do want the other chief instruction. And for my part being a simple one, am not ashamed to be exercised in the study of God's book: no more, then to be in the field exercised, in the use of any weapon or order, although my study in it be not such as I wish it to be: yet having received great profit & comfort of conscience, by reading of sundry works of divinity: and namely by the reading of a work of Master Peter Viret, entitled the Christian instruction, I would not bereave my country men the commodity of the same: but thought myself bound in conscience to make them partakers thereof. Wherefore having translated the first part of it into our tongue with boisterous and rude terms, as a man utterly void of eloquence: I have committed the same to the print, and so far presumed upon your honour's goodness, as under your lordships name to suffer it to come to the sight of others. May it please you, to accept this simple token of my travail & poor good will towards your honour. I doubt not but some shall receive such fruit of it, as they shall like well my labour, and pray for your Lordship, under whose name it is published. And so shall my desire in Christ be satisfied. God prosper your honour in health and high estate. God increase his faith and his fear, in you. Right honourable I have added in the end of this work, a table containing the principal matters, that are entreated of, in this work, to the end that men may the more easily find them. God defend you and preserve you.   

❧ John Shute, to the faithful reader, Grace mercy, and peace from God the father, thorough our Lord jesus Christ.  
Considering that God requireth no more of man, for his innumerable benefits (which he hath & doth from time to time bestow upon him) but only frank obedience, the which he can no wise yield duly unto him, except he know him, and he can not know him but by his word, and for that there be many adversaries at this day, who will not have men to deal with the word of God, nor to receive any Religion, but such as shall be given unto them by general Counsels: I have thought good to turn into the English tongue this little work, framed by the right famous, worthy & godly learned man, M. Peter Viret: wherein you may see what commodity the Church of God, hath reaped from time to time, of the Decrees and determinations of general Counsels, & of the ordinances & decretals of Popes. And because that a number of these which so greatly reverence Counsels are Atheists and Epicuriens, saying in their hearts there is no God, and do scoff and fleer at the word of God, being over well seen in the principles of the Pope's divinity, which say that there is no God, and that all that ever is spoken of jesus Christ is but fables, and the whole Scriptures lies, as by their lives right well they do declare. And lest that any should think that I speak this of malice and without proving any thing, I think it not amiss somewhat to say of the virtuous acts of these worthy fathers, who have been the heads of a number of general Counsels, & have there ruled the roast, by their holy Ghost, whom they have there had at their own will and pleasure. The Pope Alexander the vi. devising on a time with the French kings Ambassador said 
Note the good acts of Popes, Read the life of this Alexander in Io. ba, act Romanorum▪ Pontificum.  unto him these words: That fable of jesus christ hath brought to us great riches. Besides this H●eronimus Marius, in his work entitled Eusebius Captiuus, speaking of this Pope Alexander the vi. saith of him among other things: what needeth it to recite the abominable and detestable acts of Alexander the vi. This Alexander when he had made an alliance with devils, he gave himself wholly unto them and became their subject, to the end that by their mean he might attain to the Papal dignity, which thing they promised & did fulfil: after that he governed himself in so holy a sort that afterward during his life he never enterprised any thing, without their counsel. There are many things in writing, which are very notable, and worthy of a Pope of Rome and successor of S. Peter: for there are in the Latin certain excellent verses and very worthy to be noted, which set forth very well the praises of this most holy father, the sense whereof doth follow here. Alexander selleth Crosses, altars yea & jesus Christ himself: first he bought them, wherefore, he may well sell them. Rome passeth on from one vice to an other, and from the flame to the fire under the government of this spaniard, Tarqvinius, was the vi. king of the Romans, Nero the vi. Emperor. And this the sixth of his name. Rome hath ever been plagued under those sixtes: this Alexander caused Gemma (who was fled to Rome for succour, being brother to Bajazet Emperor of Turckie) to be poisoned for the some of CC. M. Ducats, which he received of the said Bajazet. This Alexander to maintain his tyranny, called to his aid Bajazet Emperor of the turks against the French king Charles the viii & enforced himself by all means possible to make the realm of Naples, yea and the very City of Rome itself, the frontiers' of the Turckysh Empire: he caused the toong● and hands of Antony Mancivell, a man marvelously well learned to be cut of, because he had written an Oration, very elegantly against the wicked manners & most abominable and villainous life of the said Pope. On a time this pope made a very sumptuous banquet, in the which he had commanded to give to drink, to certain rich Senators and Cardinals, whom he had convited thither, of a flagon tempered with poison, & his taster mistaking the flagon: gave him to drink of the same flagon, whereof he died with those Senators and Cardinals, this Alexander, as soon as he was Cardinal, became a Necromancer, counseled with devils whom he had familiar, if they would be so gracious unto him (who was their obedient vassal & humble disciple) as to help him in his practice & suit which he made for the Papal dignity: whereunto they frankly granted, conditionally that he should make solemn oath in the preseuce of the prince of darkness, that he should show himself an assured protector of Satan, & his infernal common wealth: whereunto the Cardinal assented. Only requiring that when this homage and oath should be given: it would please the devil not to appear unto him in his hideous and fear full form, but rather in man's shape in the likeness of a protonotary, which thing being granted, at a day appointed: in the summer time, the Cardinal conveyed himself secretly alon● into a chamber in a certain place called mount Cavallus, and there came unto him my Lord the protonotary, being a man of a mean age very honourably appareled, who after certain devise and discourse had, assured him, that he should be Pope, who being then full of joy inquired of the time, and how long he should reign. This reverend protonotary made him a deceptive answer, full of doubtfulness, to wit that he should reign xi. and viii. the Cardinal foolishly persuaded himself that he should reign in the Papal dignity. 19 years, albeit that the promise was but for xi. years and. 8. months when Innocent the. 8. was dead Roderick Borgia was created and established Pope, who forthwith named himself Alexander the vi. now he did for the space of. 11. years and 8. months marvelously trouble and oppress Italy, he being old began to be diseased & sick whereupon he kept his bed, and commanded one of his servants named Modena (who was most privy and familiar with him of all those of his Court) to go into his guard rob and to bring him a little book richly set, with gold and precious stones: which was in a certain box or drawer, which he appointed him unto. This little book contained all the sorts and kinds of illusions and enchauntements of necromancy, where at, this old man determined to inquire & to ascertain himself, of the end and closing up of his life: this servant according to the commandment of his master, went to the place, and as he was entering in at the door of the chamber, he saw one fit in the Pope's chair, who was very like unto his master, which when he saw (being horribly afraid) returned and ran to his master, without bringing the book with him, to whom he declared what he had seen: which thing when the Pope understood fully, and saw his servant so afraid: he let him alone for a time, afterward he so wrought with him, that he caused him to go again to his guard rob, to see if he could espy the aforesaid Pope: & whether he would say any thing to him or no. The servant being entered into the chamber again, found there him whom he had seen there before but he was far greater: he that sat asked him, why he came thither, and what he had to do there: who being exceedingly afraid & in manner out of breath, answered, that he came for a certain garment for the Pope, Then the devil cast forth an horrible groan, & said to him, what Pope? I am Peep myself. when Alexander understood this, his malady increased, & his death approached. Shortly after one apparelled like a courtier, came to the chamber where the Pope lay, and knocked very loudly, saying that he must needs speak with him. The door being opened unto him, he came and spoke with the Pope, all others were retired from them. The Pope and he talked very secretly, but men might see be their countenances, that they were very earnest and in great contention between themselves, & that the Pope was not well content, for he said to him: how may this be? my time is not yet expired, thou know'st that I had 19 years, whereof I have passed but. 11. & 8. months. where upon they heard the courtier answer him boldly, you did mistake that word, for I said not. 19 years, but I meant. 11. years and 8. months, should be the reigns of thy Papacy, and therefore thou must needs die. Now albeit the Pope requested instantly, that he would have consideration of his life, and term of years concerning his Papacy: it was as if he had spoken to a deaf man, for all his exceptions, requests and allegations could stand him in no stead: for all that were in the chamber might well see, that the devil was more perfect in Arithmetic, than was the Pope, and in the end it was easily concluded that Alexander had erred in his accounts. Finally to conclude the matter, when Satan departed from thence, forthwith the soul of the Pope: most miserably departed from his body, with horrible cries and fearful gronyngs and bewaylyng. And in this sort most miserably, wretchedly and wickedly, died the Pope Alexander, surnamed the 6. leaving to his son his patrimony, greatly engayged and encumbered, & the Italians their Roman common wealth, wholly confused disordered and spoiled, to the end he might be an example, to all ages to declare how that things evil gotten are consumed & spent miserably & wickedly, ●ontanus writeth that thy● Pope, had a daughter whom his son did use and so did the Pope himself, her name was Lucrece, Sanazarius, the Italian Poet, in his Epigrams and 2. book speaking of this Pope Alexander & noting his incest, saith thus. O Lucrece, will Alexander yet still covet thee? O horrible case, he is thy father. In the work entitled l'Estat do l'Eglise, it is written of this Pope Alexander, that not only he did use his daughter Lucrece, but his son did the like, whereupon she is called his wife, his daughter, and daughter in law. etc. Vrspergensis noteth of Bregory the. 7. otherwise named Hildebrand, that the common wealth of Rome, and the Church was in great danger under him, by means of errors and new Schisms, which were never heard of before, & that he did usurp the Papal seat by tyranny, & not be lawful election. The Council holden at worms, in the year. 1080. saith of Gregory the. 7. that it is certain that he was not chosen of God, but that he did shamefully thrust himself in by deceit and money, and did turn up side down the order of the Church, and troubled the state of the Christian Empire, and framed the destruction of both the body & soul of the Catholic king, and did defend the perjured king, & did sow discord among such as did accord, and strife among the quiet, offences among the brethren, divorce among the married, and stirred up and changed all things that might tend to quietness among such as were of honest life. we therefore being gathered together by God against the said Hildebrand, who preached nothing but sacrileges & fires, main tayned the perjured and murderers, and brought the univer fall and Apostolic faith of the body and blood of the Lord into doubt, being an observer of divinations and dreams, & an open Necromancer, having a familiar spirit, and leaving in this sort the true faith, we judge that he ought by lawful authority to be deposed, driven from his seat, and perpetually condemned, if he leave not his seat when he shall understand these things. I refer such as will understand more of the said Gregory to the reading of the Cardinal Benno, his work, wherein the life of the said Gregory is set forth. Moreover I wish them in Platina. to consider the lives of john the. 8. Silvester, Bennet the. 8. with many others. Also in Sabellicus, in his. 9 Eneide and first and 2. book, where they shall see of the Popes afore written. Also in the Commentaries of that worthy man john Sleydan in his. 21. book, where he mentioneth of an Italian, which wrote a book very sharply against Paul the. 3. naming him therein Antichrist, declaring that in the time of Innocent the Pope he was committed to prison being a wicked prelate for if murders, and for the poisoning of his mother, & his nephew, whereby the inheritance might come to him further, after that he was delivered out of prison he made great foot for a Hat of a Cardinal, and was three times refused by the Cardinals: in the end his sister julia Farnese, obtained it. For she threatened the Pope Alexander the. 6. that from that time forth, she would never be at his commandment, the Pope fearing her displeasure accepted him into the troop of Cardinals: further, that he poisoned an other sister of his, and used an other of them, and also his nee●e and his own daughter, and for that that he would the more liberally enjoy her, he found the mean to poison her husband Bose Sforce: he was also a great Necromancer, as witnesseth Sleidan in his Commentaries and. 19 book, & john Bale, in the life of the said Paul the 3. in his act. Roma Pontificum, where he fully declareth the virtues of him. Let us see one more among a great number of these reverend fathers, Clement the. 8. of that name borne in Florence, bastard to Leo the. 10. (his nephew I should say) named before julius, Cardinal Priest of the title of S. Laurence in Damase. etc. It is written of him in certain Commentaries upon the articles of the Doctors of Paris, that this Clement was a bastard, empoisoner, homicide, bawd, simoniaque, Sodomit, perjured, whoremaster, necromancer. Church robber, and a worker of all wickedness. etc. Such as will understand more of the goodness & of the lives of such holy fathers, I refer them to the reading of the Florentine history of Machiavelli, let them read Volateran. Sabellicus, Platina john Bale act. Rom. pont. john le Maire in his work of Schisms, the sea of histories. Fascicul. temp. Naucle. supplement. chro. with a number of others, whom for briefty I do omit. Truly these fathers are jolly followers of Christ, who ought chief to be followed, he sent his Apostles abroad into the world commanding them to preach the Gospel to all men, and to 
A comparison between Christ & the Pope  baptise in the name of the father, the son & the holy ghost, etc. the Pope commandeth his to hollow Churches, water, bread, oil, bells, chalices, green boughs, candles with such like traishe, & to sing Masses for the living, and for the dead, and to apply them to sundry uses, but the pulpit is not greatly encumbered with them, and when they do preach, they preach nothing else but lies, as their own dreams, phautasies, Legenda aurea, a Scripture of their own inspiration, & their own traditions, decrees, and ordinances. Christ ordained only two Sacraments, which two they have corrupted and added to them five, because that Christ did not so well know what is meet for his Church as they do, O horrible 
Gene, 2  presumption. God himself when he had created man in Paradise, said: It is not good that man be alone, we will make 
i, Cor, 7  him a helper. The Apostle s. Paul saith: It is good for a man not to touch a woman, yet to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, & every woman her own husband. 
Heb, 13, ●  The Apostle saith, marriage is honourable among all men & the bed undefiled: but God will judge the whore masters and adulterers, these words are general and have regard to all men and to all estates. jesus Christ did not only allow marriage: but did also honour it with his presence In Cana of Galilee. S. Augustine in his treatise of the goodness of marriage saith, in his. 21. Chap. that he dare not prefer the virginity of S. john, before the marriage of Abraham. S. Ambrose in his first book saith. Touching virgins S. Paul saith. I have no commandment of the Lord, but I do counsel or advise, if the doctor of the Gentiles had no commandment, who is he that might have any? And truly he had no commandment, but he did counsel thereunto, for virginity can not be commanded, it may well be desired, for that which is not in our power is not to be commanded, but it is to be wished for. Origens' upon S. Matthew in his. 24. Homely saith. That they which do forbid men to marry, do enforce them to a licentious villeni forbidding that which is expedient. The like he saith of those that command abstinence from meats, and such like, where unto the faithful may in no wise be constrained, he saith that they lay he any burdens, on the shoulders of men contrary to the will of Christ: who saith, My yoke is pleasant & my burden light & easy. etc. Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical history. 3. book. 30. cha. reciteth, that S. Clement writing against such as did condemn marriage, among other things saith, will they reprove the Apostles: S. Peter had a wife. So had Philippe, Paul also had a wife, as appeareth by one of his Epistles, in the which he is not ashamed, to send salutations to her: whom he saith he would not carry about the country with him, because he would be the more ready to preach the Gospel. Many of the ancient fathers were married as patriarchs, Prophets, and Bishops of the primitive Church. Yet is not the Pope afraid to say (and stand against God and Christ) that marriage is uncleanness, pollution and carnal filthiness, as it is said in the. 4. of the sentences. Dist c. 17. chap. 4. and his decret. 27. Quest. 2. chap. which beginneth. Cum societas Tertulian in his prescriptions against the heretics, saith. It is not in our power or choice lawful▪ to bring in, to choose or allege for authority, that which any other hath brought in, or alleged for his own pleasure: for we have the Apostles of the Lord for our authors, who have brought in nothing for their own pleasure▪ nor any new thing, but have faithfully preached and taught to the nations, that discipline which they received of Christ S. Augustine upon S. john in the. 46. treatise and. 10. chap. saith, if they which sit in the chair of Moses do teach the law of God, it doth then follow that God teacheth by them: but if they will teach any thing of their own, hear them not, nor yet do it. etc. And in the. 6. against Faustus. chap. 16. & in the. 18. book. chap. 12. doth call by the words of Christ (not only false Prophets but also thieves and murderers) all such as dare preach any other thing to the people of God, them the Canonical Scriptures: & against such he allegeth the saying of Christ, all those that came before me, are thieves & murderers, S. Paul in his. 1. Epistle to the Galathians doth accursed him, that bringeth any other doctrine than that which he hath taught, yea if it were an Angel of heaven. Further in his Epistle he saith, that which I received of the Lord, the same also deliver I unto you. etc. It is not so with these men, of whom we have already spoken, they deliver unto us their own traditions, inventions and dreams in the stead of the word of God. And I doubt not (although these men have nothing in their mouths but the fathers, the fathers which must authorize the scriptures unto them) if the fathers lived in these days, but they would be as ready to persecute them as they are to persecute those which in these days do profess Christ. Let it be seen, how many of them were which suffered in the late time of their late persecution that did deny any one article of the Christian faith, but they did by God's grace most costantly affirm them, even sealing them up with their blood: examine Theodoret, Epiphanius and Augustine, Fathers of great holiness and doctrine, who have largely written of heresies, and let it be seen whether they maintained any one of those which they cite, no not one: let us see how many Arrians, anabaptists Pelagians, Marcionistes, Nestorians, Ebionistes, or any other kind of heretics they did then execute. I suppose the number will appear very small, for they are all in league with Satan. I doubt, not but (if the Gospel had as fat a smoking kitchen tied unto it, as have the romish rites) we should have a great number of Gospelers: for this kitchen 
Seducers of the people  is of great effect among the romanists. S. Chrisostome upon S. Matthew in his. 48. Homely. chap. 24. saith thus: There are some which do greatly seduce through lies & untruths, they preach Christ, they teach the faith, they have also churches, orders and elders as the faithful have. They do also read the Scriptures of God, it seemeth that they give the same baptism and the sacrament of the body and blood of jesus Christ, likewise they honour the Apostles & Martyrs, and by these means they do greatly abuse the understanding, not only of the simple, but also of such as are wise. who shall he be that Antichrist shall not be able to shake or move? partly doing the works of Christ, and the antichristians, fulfilling in a sort the duties of christians, unless it be peradventure such an one as doth consider that which the Apostle saith: if Satan can transform himself into an Angel of light, is it then a great matter for his ministers to be transformed like to the minister of justice? whose end shall be according to their works and not according to their feigned show of Christianity. S. Hierom upon the. 9 cha. of the Prophet Osee faith: I do no● find by the ancient histories that any other have divided the Church, and seduced the people of the household of God, but only the Priests and Prelates, whom God hath appointed to be the spialles & watch men for the Christians against the enemy's of the church S. Bernard in his apology, to willian the Abbot saith. The walls of the Church do shine, but the poor are in distress, the stone 
Whereof the church consists.  works of her, are clothed with gold, but she leaveth her children naked. Isichius upon Leviticus. book. 4. chap. the. 14. saith They may well be called the decking of the house that do maintain it: to wit those orders of men, which teach godliness or godly things, for of such is the Church made in deed, and not (as many do thinck●) of wood and stones. And therefore when in the old time it was commanded to assemble the church, Moses did not bring together timber, stones and such like, but the people, the elders & the Levites. Saint Chrysostom of his resignation or banishment, Hom. 20 saith. The church consisteth not of walls, but of the multitude of good people. S. Bernard upon the Cantique● in his 33. sermon saith: Now, from whom shall the church hide her 
The complaint of Bernard.  self, all are friends and all are enemies, all are allies and all are adversaries, all are of the household, and none is at quiet, all are neighbours, and every man seeketh his own profit, they are the ministers of Christ & serve Antichrist, they walk in honour with the goods of the Lord, & yet they honour not the Lord, from thence cometh that beauty of the whore which thou daily dost see, clothed as players of staige plays, appareled as a king: of this thou seest the gold upon their bridles, fadles and spurs, of this are the tables furnished with meats and vessels, of this are the dronkennesies and gluttonies, of this proceedeth the harp & vial, from thence are the flowing wine presses, & the full sellers: the one equal with the other, of this are the little boxes and pots full of sweet ointments and savours, of this are their purses filled, for this cause will they be, & are the princes of the Church, the provosts, the Deans, the Archdeacon's, the Bishops and the Archbishops, and such things come not lawfully to pass, but because they walk in the affairs of darkness, heretofore it hath been spoken of and now is the time come and fulfilled. Behold in peace my bitterness is very bitter. It 
Esay, 38. d  hath been heretofore bitter in the death of the Martyrs, after that more bitter in the controversies of the heretics, & now it is most bitter in the manners of the servants of the household: they can neither be driven away nor avoided, they are so strong and so infinitely increased. The wound of the Church is in her entrails and bowels, and it is incurable, and therefore is her bitterness very bitter, etc. S. Hilary writing against Aurentius saith these words: I warn 
Admonition of hilary,  you to beware of Antichrist, you do to much esteem the walls, seeking the Church of God in the gorgeousness of buildings, thinking that the unity of the faithful is there contained, do we doubt whether Antichrist have his seat there or no. The mountains, the woods, the lakes, prisons and wildernesses are more assured unto ●e and more safe, for the Prophets being in them hidden did prophecy. Saint Bernard upon the. 90. Psalm, and verse 6. sayeth, in manner all the Christians seek their own gain, & not the gain of jesus Christ. And they have turned over the very offices of the ecclesiastical dignity, into shameful and dishonest gain, and into affairs of darkness, and do not in these things seek the salvation of souls but the pleasures of riches. For this cause are they rounded, for this cause do they haunt the churches, say Masses an● sing Psalms. At this day they strive by process & go to law for bishoprics & Archbishoprikes, in such sort that the revenues of the Church are vestowed in superfluities and vain usages: there resteth no more but that the man of sin the son of perdition be revealed, etc. Saint Bernard in his sermon of the conversion of S. Paul saith, O Lord God, those whom we see to covet the chief places in thy church and possess the principality: they are even the first that persecute thee. They have taken the Ark of Zion, and they have possessed the castle, and afterward have freely through the power thereof set the whole city on fire: their conversation is miserable, the subversion of thy people is lamentable. S. Bernard in his book de consider ad Eugenium, toward the end of his. 4. book speaketh to the Pope in this sort: what is it that thy flatterers say unto thee, go to hardly 
The description of the Romish Court.  thou buyest them with the spoil of the churches: The life of the poor is sown in the gates of the rich. The silver shineth in the dirt, men run thither out of all par●es, the poorest carrieth it not away, but he that is strongest, or else he that runneth most speedily: this custom, or rather deadly corruption, began not in thy time, God would it might end in the same. In the mean time thou art adorned & decked preciously, if I durst say it, thy seat is rather a close of devils then of sheep. Did S. Peter so: Did S. Paul so mock? Thy court doth use rather to receive the good, then to make any good, for such as are evil do not amend in thy court, but the good do there wax worse. Bernard also saith: Behold the 
Ad E●gen. l●b. ●e●tio.  common murmur and complaint of all the Churches, they cry out that they are wounded and corn in pieces. There are very few or none are all, who fear not that wound: dost thou ask what wound it is? The Abbots are rob and spoiled by their bishops, the Bishops by their Archbishops. It is a marvel if any man be able to excuse it. In so doing, you do very well declare that you have plenty of power, but not of justice, you do it because you are able to do it: but the question is, if you ought to do it. You are ordained to conserve to every man his honour, and degree; & not to be envious toward him. etc. S. Paul doth rightwell setforth in his colours this romish prelate (which will be called Sanctissimus, or most holy) in his second Epistle to the Thessalonians and. 2. chap. naming him the son of perdition, the man of sin. etc. S. Peter also in his. 2. Epistle and. 2. chap. doth most lively paint out the manners and life of this romish rabble of Prelacy. Furthermore in the distinctions. distinct, 34 cap, Lector, gloze & distinct, 82, chap, prisbit. and in the Canon of the Apostles. 17. quest, 4, chap, Si quis, distinct, 40, chap, Si papa, distinct, 96 chap, Satis, chap, Simplici, & Incipitis. It is written in these canons, that the power and authority of the Pope's is such, that they are able to dispense against the doctrine of the Apostles, against the right of nature, & consequently against the Gospel and word of God. etc. O horrible blasphemy. Christ commanded that none should add, or diminish from his word, his word must be our guide or Schoolmaster and instructor, and yet in these days the number will say, it is not for us to read the Scriptures, it appertaineth only to priests, Friars and Monks to read & understand the scriptures, as though the kingdom of heaven belonged only to such: truly if that they which live as it were in solitary life have need to be armed with the understanding of the Scriptures, to heal their wounds which they daily receive in the battle of this mortal life, being disburdened of a great number of cares, which he is charged with that is burdened with office of Magistrate or of rule in the common wealth, and also that he is charged with, that is burdened with wife, children & family: he that is in this sort burdened shall have more often occasion to offend the majesty of God, than he that is not so burdened, wherefore it is the more needful that he have his medicine prepared wherewith to heal his deadly wounds which he daily receiveth by mean of sundry occasions given unto him: which medicine is the understanding of god's word, wherewith he may assuredly furnish himself against all temptations, as witnesseth the Psalmist saying: The words of the Lord are pure, even as the silver which from the earth is seven times tried & purified. Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history 
Psal. 12  6. book. 15. chap. allegeth the Epistle of Alexander bishop of jerusalem, against Demetrius, & doth reprove him saying: That which thou sayest in thy letters, affirming that it was never seen, nor known, that secular & lay men should dispute of the 
The scripture ought to be had in the vulgarae tongue.  faith in the presence of Bishops: I know not what hath moved thee to affirm so manifest a lie, for so much as when so ever any is found sufficient & meet to instruct and teach the people, the bishops have accustomed to desire them to take the matter in hand, So did our brother Neon Bishop, to Euelp● ' in the city Larande, & the bishop Celsus to Paulin in the city Iconie, & the Bishop Atticus to Theodore in the city Synnade: and there is no doubt but other bishops do the like in their diocese: when they find any man meet to profit the people. john Gerson, a great pillar of the papacy, in the first part of his examination of doctrines saith, that the first verity is so sure, that any simple man not being authorized may be so excellently seen & instructed in the holy Scriptures, that men ought to give more credit to his affyrmation in matter of teaching, them to the doctrine of the Pope: for it is plain that we ought to give greater credit to the Gospel, then to the Pope: & within few words after he saith, that if a general Council should be holden, & that such a well instructed man were present there, if that the greatest number should through malice or ignorance decline and decree any thing against the Gospel, such a lay man might lawfully stand against the whole general Council. Panormitan, albeit he were a great Idolater of papacy, in the chap. significasti, extra, de electronibus saith these words: In matters concerning the faith, the saying of a lay man ought to have place, before the saying of the Pope, if his saying be more probable, and better authorized by the old and new Testament. saint Jerome in his first tome writing to Marcelle, encouraging her to go to Bethleem sayeth: In the village of jesus Christ there are none but rustical men, there is nothing heard on any side, but Psalms: The plough man holding the plough by the tail, doth sing hallelujah: the harvest man being at his labour sweeting, doth pass the time in singing of Psalms: and the labourer in the vineyard with his hook cutting the wines, doth sing some thing of David: such are the songs of that country, such are (as men commonly say) their songs of love. S. Jerome in the proem of his 1. book of his exposition upon the Epistle to the Ephesians in the. 9 Tom saith: All words and all sentences are contained in the book of God, by the which also we know God, & are not ignorant of the cause of our creation. I do not a little marvel that some have been so given to folly and sluggishness that they would not learn those things which are excellent, but have thought, & do think worthy of blame, all those that are given to such studies: to whom albeit I could make more strict answer, & soon leave them offended or pleased, I say that it is much better to read the Scriptures, then to be greedy and to fish for riches, and to gather & heay them together. S. Jerome upon the. 6. chap. to the Ephesians saith if he command the lay men of the Ephesians, & such as be occupied in the affairs and business of this life (as men see among the common people) to instruct and bring up their children in all godly discipline and learning, what may men then think of Ministers and elders? of whose order and manner of life he wrote to his disciple Timothe saying, having their children subject in all reverence. etc. Primase Bishop of Utica, in the country of Africa, & disciple to S. Augustin, writing upon the. 3. chap. of the Epistle to the Collosians saith: let the word of God dwell plenteously in you. etc. Hereit it is plainly declared, that the lay people ought also to have the word of God, not only slenderly, but also abundantly, and also that they ought to admonish & teach one an other. Theophilacte upon the Epistle to the Ephesians the. 6. chap. showing fathers & mothers, by what means they shall make their children obedient and ready to do their commandment, declareth the cause of their obedience, to the commandment of their father saying: fathers provoke not your children. etc. If thou wilt have thy children obedient, bring them up and exercise them in God's word, accustom them to sermons, and say not that it belongeth to monks only to read the holy Scriptures: for truly it is rather the office of every Christian man, & namely of him that is occupied in the affairs and business of this world. And the more that he needeth help, so much the more needeth he to understand, for he is the more tossed with the surges and assaults of this world. It shall be much for thy profit, that thy children do hear and read the holy Scriptures: for out of them they shall learn, honour thy father & thy mother, but thou dost the contrary. Thou bringest them up in the study of the writings of the heathens and Gentiles, out of the which they learn very naughty things: which happen not unto them, if they be instructed in the holy Scriptures. etc. S. Chrisostome upon Genesis, in his. 5. Homely. 6. chap. and. 1. Tom saith: I beseech you that we be not negligent as concerning our health, but rather that our talk be of spiritual things, and that some one take in his hand the book of God, and calling his neighbours to him, he do water his own soul, & theirs with godly sentences, to the end that we may chase from us the treasons, and awaits of the devil. S. Chrisostome in his. 3. sermon of Lazar saith: I do always exhort you, & will not cease but still exhort you to give heed, not only to what is said here, but also when you come home into your houses, that you be continually occupied in the reading of the Scriptures: which I have not left to urge them with in particular, that have been conversant with me, and let no man say unto me (these words are cold and of small effect) I am an advocate or lawyer, I am occupied in the affairs of the commonwealth: I am a man of occupation. I have a wife, I have a charge of children. I am burdened with house keeping, I am a man of the world, it is not for me to read the Scriptures, but it is for those that have forsaken the world, which dwell in mountains, & lead a continent & solitary life. Man, what sayest thou? hast not thou to do with the reading of the Scriptures, because thou art occupied with many cares and businesses? But thou hast greater need of it then they have. For they have not so great need of the help of the Scriptures, as you have, which are tossed & turmoiled among the surges and wanes of worldly business: for truly, the monks and so litarie men, which dwell in the deserts, are without process and worldly cares, & have none acquaintance with any, but do Philosophe & study for knowledge in peaceable quietness and sucetie: and as they were in a sure haven, have fruition of things permanent & certain: and contrarily we (being tossed with infinite worldly cares and business, as it were in the midst of the sea) have always need of continual solace and comfort of the Scriptures. They are far of from the combatte, but thou art daily in the battle, because thou receivest many wounds: therefore hast thou greater need of remedy. S. Jerome writing to a Lady named Gaudence, of the bringing 
Education of youth  up of her daughter ●acatulla saith: when the little & young maiden shall come to the. 7. year of her age, and that she beginneth to have shame, and to know whereof she ought to be silent, & to doubt of that which she should speak, let her then learn the Psalter, by heart, until she come to the. 12. year of her age, that she lay up a treasure in her heart of the books of Solomon, of the writings of the Apostles & Prophets, writing also to an other good Lady named Leta, exhorting her to instruct her daughter in the holy Scripture, even from the cradle, saying thus: let her embrace the book of God, in the stead of precious stones & silk, in the which books let her delight, not in their goodly coverings of sundry colours, but in the distinct erudition, being corrected according to the faith: let her first learn the Psalter, & by such songs let her withdraw herself from the world. Let her learn out of the proverbs of Solomon to live virtuously, let her learn out of Ecclesiastes to tread worldly things under fee●e, & out of job example of virtue and patience: let the Gospel be continually in her hands, let her thoroughly learn the acts and Epistles of the Apostles. And when she hath in this sort enriched the Cabinet of her heart with such treasures, let her learn by heart the Prophets, the books of Moses, of the kings, the Paralipomenon, Esoras, and also Hester, & last of all the song of songs, called in latin Canticum Canticorum; for if she should read it first she might be hurt by it, not understanding the holy songs of spiritual marriages, by those carnal phrases: let her avoid all the Apocripho books, let her have also continual excercise in the works of Cyprian, Athanase & hilary. S. Chrisostom in his. 31. Homeli upon s. john the. 4. chap. saith: who is he of us I pray you, who when he is returned home to his house doth any thing belonging to a Christian? who is he that searcheth & soundeth the meaning of the Scriptures: Truly not one, but we find oftentimes tables and dice, but very seldom books, & if any have books, they keep them shut up, as though they had none, or else they employ their time in beholding their brave painted coverings or fair figures & letters. etc. S. Chrisostome upon S. john in his. 10. Homely. 5. Tome and. 1. chap. saith: And 
Gommoditie of the scripture.  you shall be much more sharp & subtle, not only to hear & understand, but also to teach others. etc. And within few lines after in the same Homely he saith, they which are negligent have yet an other excuse very unapt, to wit that they have no books. This were a very vain answer for the rich to make, but for so much as many poor men do often times make this excuse, I will some thing say to them: and 
carelessness of the Christians  will ask them, if they have not all their tools & instruments, which do belong to their occupations & crafts not withstanding their poverty. Is not this then a great folly to excuse them by their poverty, & yet they so provide that they want nothing belonging to their occupations, & yet they excuse them selves upon their poverty & occupations, in a matter which is so commodious unto them. S. Chrisosto. in his. 3. sermon of Lazar saith: Seest thou not the workers of metals, gold smiths, silver smiths, & such like men of occupations, that they have all their tools ready which belong to their occupations? & albeit that hunger pinch them, & poverty afflict them, yet had they rather endure any kind of these miseries, them to sell any instrument that belongeth to their occupation, by the which they live. etc. S. Chrisostome in the same sermon saith, that a man may get great holiness and perfection by reading of the holy Scriptures, and the holy Ghost hath so tempered them, that he would have sinners and Publicans saved: yea & to the end that the Idiots and unlearned should be without excuse touching the hardness of the understanding thereof, he hath willed that the things therein spoken, should be so easy even at the first sight, that men of occupation & labourers, servants, women, widows, and such like that are most ignorant of all others, might by the reading thereof obtain understanding. etc. The Scripture is the power of God to salvation, by it we know God and Christ, by it we know ourselves, by it we are taught our duty toward our neighbour, by it we learn to obei our prince, by it we know the true Prophet from the false: the Scriptures are to be preferred before all the writings of men, it is the touch stone whereby we ought to examine 
Ad Regina● derecta fide  the doctrines of men. Cyril saith, it is necessary for us that we follow the holy Scriptures, & not to serve in any thing that is commanded in them. S. Ambrose upon the. 1. Epistle to the Corinth's &. 4. chap. saith: what soever is not received from the hands of the Apostles is full of wickedness. Cyprian in Sermon ● de lapsis: And how dare they ordain and decree any thing without Christ, whose hope and faith, virtue and glory is wholly in him? Origine upon ezechiel Homili. 7. let us follow no man, and if we will follow any, we have Christ set forth to us to follow. The acts of the Apostles are set forth unto us, & we know the doings of the Prophets by the holy volumes, that is a sound example to follow: & Theophilactus upon the Epistle to the Romans the last chap. saith: They which bring any thing beside the determinations and doctrine of the Apostles, they bring in offences, heresies and dissensions, Ireneus adversus Valentini & similium scripta lib. 2. cap. 56▪ Lean to the holy Scriptures, which is the sure and undoubted truth: it is a sure stone wherewith to build: when ye leave this & cleave to any other doctrines. etc. S. Augustine in his prologue of his. 3. book of the trinity saith: Obey not my writings as thou wilt the Canonical scriptures, for what so ever thou shalt find in them, that thou believest not, the same believe without doubting: but in mine if 
Authority of the wryting● of the fathers.  thou find any thing wherein thou art not persuaded thoroughly, believe it not assuredly. Again in his. 112. Epistle which he writeth to Palm, he speaketh to the like end. Item in his. 2. book of Baptism against the Donatists. 3. chap. he saith: you always allege to us the letters of Cyprian, the sayings of Cyprian, why take you authority of Cyprian for your Schism, & refuse his example, to trouble the church? who is he that doth not well know that the Canonical scriptures, as well of the old as of the new Testament, are contained within limits which are certain, & that the same is to be preferred to the writings of all the Bishops, that have been heretofore? so that we may not in any thing doubt or dispute of it, to wit whether that all that therein is be true or no, but it is lawful to reprehend the writings of the Bishops, which were written before, or which were written after the confirmation of the Canonical scriptures, either by word. etc. Moreover Origene upon the Prophet jeremy in his. 1. Howelie saith: we must needs call to witness the holy Scriptures, for without them no man ought to credit our sayings or writings. S. Hierom upon s. Matthew faith: That which is spoken without the authority of the scriptures, even as it is spoken, so may it be rejected & contemned: & upon jeremy. 9 chap. saith: The error of fathers & mothers & of ancestors ought not to be followed, but the authority of the scriptures, & the commandment of God, which he teacheth us etc. And within few lines after he saith: Assuredly thorough ignorance of the law, men shall receive Antichrist for Christ. etc. S. Cyprian to Cecil in his. 3. book of his Epistles &. 3. Epistle saith: if you do that which I command you. I will not call you my servants, but my friends. And also that Christ ought only to be herd, the father hath borne witness from heaven, saying: This is my well-beloved son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him: wherefore, if it be so the Christ only ought to be herd, then ought we not to look what any man before us hath thought good to be done: but that which Christ, who is 
Christ and not custom is to be followed  before all hath done: for we are not bound to follow the custom of men, but the truth of God, for so much as God saith by his Prophet Esay, in the .29. chap: They honour me in vain, teaching the commandments & doctrines of men. And again in the Gospel, Matthew. 15. you reject the commandment of God to establish your own traditions. And therefore dear brother, if any of our predecessors, either through ignorance or simplicity, have not observed that which the Lord hath taught us to do by his example or doctrine, that same may be refused, for the simpleness thereof, & may through the mercies of the Lord be pardoned him. etc. And shortly after he saith, if we be the elders & ministers of God & Christ, I find not that we ought to follow any but God & Christ, for somuch as he saith in the Gospel of john chap. 8. I am the light of the world, he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the 
Diui●●●um institut. lib. 6. cap. 8  light of life. Lactāti' Firmian ' in his. 6. book of his godly institutions. 8. chap. saith: we ought not to follow men but god. The canons & decrees of the Popes in the. 9 distinct. ca Noli. & cap. Ego, & cap. Negare. & dist. 24 &. 1. quest. ca Non affermam ' say thus: Men must dwell upon the holy Scriptures, & not upon the sayings of men, how holy soever they be. etc. S. Chrisostome upon S. john, saith in the end of the. 16. homely: That men of occupation do seek & strive to be excellent in their occupations, 
Gredi desire of corporal things, and carelessness of spiritual things.  but the christian can not render reason of his religion: & if these handy occupations were not known, it were but loss of money, but the contempt of the christian religion carrieth with it destruction of the soul, & yet we tranayle in so great misery & madness that we bestow in them all our study & care, but the things which are most necessary for us, and are most sure forts of our salvation, we esteem not at all. It is it that letteth the heathens from acknowledging their error, and causeth them to scoff at us: for albeit they are grounded only upon lies, to do all that which they do, & to defend the ignominy of their doctrine, we which serve the truth, dare not once open our mouths to defend that which is ours: why should they not condemn our great imbecility, & have us in suspicion to be crafty & deceitful? why should they not speak evil of Christ as of a liar, who by his fraud should have abused the simplicity of the multitude? we are cause of this blasphemy: for S. Peter in his. i. epistle. 3. chap. commandeth us to be always ready to render reason to all that shall demand us of the faith & hope that we have. And again S. Paul Colo. 3. chap. 
Pro●. 10. b  let the word of God dwell plenteously in you, but what answer make they to that which are more foolish than the very fools in deed. Blessed is every simple one & he that walketh surely. But that is the cause of all evils, for that: that many know not how to allege aptly the testimonies of the scriptures: for in this place we may not understand the simple for the foolish and for him that understandeth nothing, but for him that is not crafty and melicious. For if it should be so understood, it should be superfluous to say, be ye wise therefore 
Math. 10. b  as serpents and simple as doves. S. Ambrose upon the 2. epistle to Tymothe. 3. chap. sayeth: All scripture given by inspiration from God, etc. It is manifest that all Scripture whereof God hath declared himself to be author, is profitable, For it is given to that end that it should profit the ignorant, reform the deformed, drawing the wicked into all good works: for, by profiting a little and little in newness of life, it maketh the man of God, etc. The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring or converting souls, the testimony of the Lord is 
Collo. 3. b Psal. 19 Psal. 119  faithful and sure, it giveth wisdom to the ignorant. The statutes of the eternal are righteous, rejoicing the heart, the commandment of the Lord is pure and doth lighten the eyes. And again: Thy word is alampe or lantern to my feet & a light to my steps. The Prophet Esay in his. 8. chap. saith, is there any where a people that asketh not council of his God? Should men turn from the living to the dead? If any man want light let him look upon the law & the testimony, whether they speak after this meaning. The light of the 
Ezech, 20. c  morning shall not be given unto them. Moreover the Prophet saith. Say to the children in the desert, walk not in the ordinances of your fathers, & observe not all their statutes, & be not defiled with their idols. I am the Lord your God walk in my ordinances and keep my statutes and do them. 
Eccle. 1, a  Item the fountain of wisdom is the word of the sovereign Lord God, & the entry into the same are his eternal commandments. And again: Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and they be they which bear 
john 5 john, 20 g  witness of me. And jesus did many other things that are not written in this book, in the presence of his disciples, but these things are written to the end that you should believe that jesus is the anointed son of God, & that in so believing you may have life thorough his name. The holy scriptures are 
In what recommendation God hath his Word,  full of the like sayings. The ancient fathers are full of the worthiness of the scriptures. S. Augustine in his. 56. sermon made to the brethren that were in solitude saith: he that maketh none account of the reading of the holy scriptures sent from heaven, ought not only to fear that peradventure he shall not receive everlasting rewards: but also that he shall not escape the everlasting punishments, for it is so dangerous unto us, not to read the divine precepts, that the Prophets with great sorrow exclaim & cry out: for that cause have 
Esay. 5. c Ose, 4. b 1, Cor, 14  my people been brought into captivity, because they had no knowledge: for he that is ignorant, shall be ignorant: out of all doubt he that in this world maketh none account to seek to know God by the holy Scriptures, God will not vouchsafe to know him in the joys everlasting, we ought to be a feared to hear (after that the gates shall be shut) with the foolish virgins, I know you not, I have none acquaintance 
Math, 25, ●  with you: you that work iniquity, depart you from me: what meaneth this? I know you not; I am not acquainted with you, how knoweth he not those that he sendeth to the fire? There is neither of them spoken without cause, for as it hath been already said, such as would not in this world seek to know him by reading the Scriptures, GOD will not acknowledge them at the day of judgement. We ought also not to hear negligently (but with attentive ear & fear) that which is written in Solomon, he that turneth (saith he) his ear 
Prou, 18, ●  from the hearing of the law, his prayer shall be abominable: wherefore he that will be heard at God's hand, must first hear God. For how would he that God should hear him when he doth so despise him, that he maketh none account of the reading of his commandments? Saint Jerome in the poem of his Commentaries upon Isaiah, to Eustochius, saith: therefore I yield unto thee, and to him by thee, that which I do owe, obeying the commandment of 
john 5. f Math. 7 ●  Christ, who faith, search diligently the Scriptures, Seek and you shall find: to the end that it be not said to me, as it was to the jews: ye err, not knowing the Scriptures, & the power of God & the wisdom of God: and truly after S. Paul, if Christ be the power and wisdom of God, & he that knoweth not the scriptures, the same knoweth not the power of God nor his wisdom. To be ignorant of the Scriptures, is not to know Christ. etc. S. Chrisostome in the Homely. 29. upon Benefis, sayeth: There is neither grief of body no● mind in the nature of man, but it may have medicine of the Scriptures. etc. These are sayings of great importance, and are true. They are no Legend lies. They are confirmed by the word of God, which is the infallible truth, Then if man know not God, as he ought to do, but by the Scriptures, & that none can be saved, but by the knowledge of God, and Christ: Then must it needs follow, that ignorance of the Scriptures bryugeth with it damnation. I have alleged here more sayings of the fathers, than I would have done (& nothing so many in number as I could have done) but because the great swarm of adversaries say, that it is not lawful or expedient, that every man should read the Scriptures, but rather that the people should be ignorant, affirming ignorance to be the mother of devotion: I could have answered it to the full by the word of God alone, which word I think to be most sufficient: but because these kind of men before named, will not accept Christ, to be a true man of his word, except he have some of the doctors & fathers for witnesses: Seeing now that it hath pleased our good God, in mercy so to deal with us, as he hath in these our days, giving us such means & introductions to the true understanding of his most sacred word, as he hath not of many ages done to any nation, let us now therefore call upon the name of our merciful and mighty God, desiring him to strengthen us, to search out this truth, and then in deed to practise the same in our lives: lest that he should in his justice take that excellent jewel of his word from us, and give it to a nation that shall bring forth the fruits thereof. I humbly beseech that good God, in the bowels of his mercy, for his Christ's sake: that he will so direct our lives, that by our good example, such as he hath not as yet called to the true knowledge of his word, may embrace and receive the same, and so profit therein, that in the end we may be all of one sheep fold, under the charge of our great shepherd jesus Christ. So be it.   


❧ The content of the first Dialogue, Entitled of the holy Inquisition, dependences, or the Accessories.  
THe principal end whereunto I tend in this Dialogue, is to procure men to search and to inquire of the will of God, by such means as he hath given us in his holy word, & sacred Scriptures, to the end the they may know how to frame & govern themselves according to the same: and that they give themselves to that study before all other things, in the most diligent and earnest wise that shallbe possible for them to do, without any delay at all: And that they do thereof very well consider, seeing the great mischiefs and inconveniences into the which men may fall, for not so doing, and the great profit and commodity that may come unto them, if they do so diligently employ themselves in the study thereof, as they ought to do.  
And for so much as the heart of man is so froward, that he will in no wise be governed according to the rule of the will and word of God, and yet for all that he will in no wise acknowledge and confess the same openly, but searcheth all excuses and colour that may be found to cover and hide his hypocrisy and wickedness: I do show plainly a number of the principal and chief excuses and colour that men allege at this present, to hinder and impeach them for coming to God, and to procure their own health and salvation. After that we will speak of such as arm themselves for their defence, with their predecessors, with antiquity, with the number and outward appearance of the world, and of those that think that their ignorance shall excuse them, and of the diversity of ignorances, and of the simplicity and malice that may be in them, and of their obstinacy, and persecutions, and of the negligence of all men in matters of Religion. I will also speak of those that cover them selves with the obedience that they do owe to their princes, & make them their shields and their Gods, and of the mean that both the princes and people should keep in such affairs. There shall also be mention made of such as excuse themselves by means of their great business: moreover of Epicurians and mockers of God's word. Beside these there shall be mention made of such as are of opinion that all nations shallbe saved every one in his law. I will also say somewhat of the certainty of God's word, and of the constancy, and assuredness of his will, and of the law. And afterward in the Dialogues following, I will speak of those that dwell upon Counsels, and will show upon what Council we ought to dwell. I have entitled this Dialogue the holy search, or inquest: because that in it mention is made, not only of that inquisition which falsely is called holy, the which is made by the ministers of Antichrist, which wrongfully are called the triers of the faith, and work continually against the true Christians that will acknowledge and confess none other doctrine or Religion to be Christian, but only that doctrine which jesus Christ hath taught, which is the holy inquiry of the knowledge of God's word, necessary for the soul's health of all true Christians. It may also be named the Accessories, for so much as I do set forth in this same, the shifts by the which men have been accustomed to wage, the law with God, and to excuse themselves and cover their rebellion, which they have committed against his Majesty.   

The first Dialogue is entitled, the holy Inquisition, or the dependences.  

Of the blindness and disorder that is among men, in the matter of Religion, and of their Salvation.  

Tymothe.  
Daniel.   
THe more that I do consider the great disorder that is in the world, in all estates, and chief in the matter of Religion, the more I do marvel. Daniel. And truly for my part, I marvel not at all, although the disorder be great, but I marvel greatly to see that it is no greater: albeit it were a hard matter to add any thing thereunto. Tymothe. Why sayest thou so? Daniel. Because that men are so blind and wicked, as though they had determinately conspired against their own salvation and health, and to thrust all, even heaven and earth, into disorder, confusion & ruin, they could do no worse than they do.   

Of the Authors and causes of all order and disorder among men, and of the goodness of God, and of the ingratitude & malice of men.  
T. I Would be very glad if thou wouldst declare and open unto me somewhat particularly the causes hereof. D. I first ask thee, who is the author and cause of all good order? T. God only, who hath created and made all things, and hath set an order amongst his creatures, such as he knoweth to be meet for them. D. And who is the author and cause of all disorder? T. The devil, adversary to God and to all his creatures: who continually employeth all his forces to overthrow and confound the whole order which God hath set amongst his creatures. D. Seeing that it is so, and that men estrange themselves from God, and flee from his council as much as in them is, and on the contrary, endeavour them withal their power to join themselves to the devil, pleasuring in nothing so much as to follow his counsels, and therefore dost thou marvel if all be in disorder and extreme confusion? Hast thou not rather occasion much more to wonder at the great goodness and inestimable sufferance of God, how he can endure so long, not only on so great an ingratitude, but rather so great a fury and rage wherewith men are filled, by the which they enforce them by all means possible utterly to destroy themselves, and to hasten their destruction and to make it more fearful and horrible? T. It is very true. And the whole being well considered, it seemeth that we have made a league with Satan, our mortal enemy, to aid him to destroy ourselves, and to hinder the goodness that God of his grace, being moved of his own only goodwill, will bestow upon us: and contrarily that God by his great goodness and mercy doth fight against our malice and frowardness, even as to bestow of his graces upon us, will we, nill we, and to withdraw us from these bottomless pits of wickedness, into the which we go about to throw ourselves most willingly.   

¶ Of the cause of the fall and quyne of mankind, and of the remedy and mean how to recover the same.  
D. THat same was the first fountain and spring of all the disorders & mischiefs that ever entered into the world. That same was the very path that our first parents took: That same was the very mean by the which they fell from that high degree and state of felicity, peace, quietness, and joy, in the which God had placed them in the beginning, through the which they have dampened themselves withal their race, and are fallen into this great disorder and confusion, in the which we are even at this present, because that we as their proper children follow even the self and same council that they followed. Therefore seeing that we do know the cause of the evil, why do we not travail to find out the remedies contrary to the same? for so much as the evil doth proceed of that, that we refused to follow the council and will of God, and followed the council and persuasion of the devil. Let us now leave the devil withal his enticements and persuasions, and let us inquire at the mouth of God and take council of him, how to learn to know his will and to follow the same: and then all disorder and confusion shallbe clean put away, and every thing shallbe brought into good order. For in deed the only will of God, and the obedience thereunto belonging, is the mother and nurse of all good order. It is only she that doth beget it, nourish it, and maintain it, and is the only rule wherewith, if you measure all things well, all disorder shallbe changed into good order.   

¶ Of the difficulty that is in men to acknowledge their errors and faults, and of the arguments that they hold of ancient custom, and of the authority of their predecessors, and of ancienty, and of the multitude, wherewith they arm themselves.  
T. I Do like all that which thou hast said very well, but there are very few that will take that way, for there are, that are so hard hearted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them believe that they are in error: what reason soever he bring against them out of the book of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faults: although they be so filthy and apparent that every man doth see them, and that every man doth handle them. These men allege their predecessors, and say that they willbe no wiser, nor better than they: for they say that they were honest men, and wise enough for to know the will of God. Whereupon they conclude that if those were dampened, they willbe also dampened with them. another sort allege ancient customs and the multitude of men, and the continuance of time, and the auncienti of their order of life.   

¶ Of the process that men bring against God, and of the shifts that they seek to cloak their rebellion against hy● word.  
D. FOr so much as men will not be brought to that pass, to yield that obedience unto God which they own unto him, but will go to the law with him, it must needs come to pass that they search out some shift and some starting holes and excuses to give some show to their cause. Wherefore if we shall give them place, they will never be unfurnished of shifts. But it is great folly for them to plead their cause with God, for he must be the judge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure themselves that all their reasons and excuses shallbe of no great value before him, when they shallbe weighed in the balances of his justice and judgements. But because that men have been always accustomed to flatter themselves, and that they do so dilighte in their errors, that it is a hard matter to bring them to acknowledge themselves to be so foul and filthy, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fair discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad thereof.   

¶ How that all false Religion may be well defended: if that antiquity & the authority of predecessors may have place.  
D. LEt us now see, what foundation that hath, whereof you have now spoken. There is no error, sect, heresy, false doctrine, nor wickedness so great, but that it may easily be defended, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a jew, a turk, and a pagan, may well allege as much. T. I confess the same. D. If then these Christians (as they name them) were jews, Turks, or Pagans borne, they would so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessors before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men have none other reason to main ta'en their order and manner of life, but only wilfulness & obstinacy, by the which they do right well declare that they have not well considered what the Lord saith by his Prophet ezechiel: Walk not in the ways of your fathers, nor be 
Ezech. 20  you filled with their Idols, for I am the Lord your God: you shall walk in my commandments, & see that you serve neither to the right hand, ne yet to the left hand. It is also written, you shall not do as those the are gone before you, neither file 
Leu. 18  you yourselves as they have done. Take heed that you do not according to the custom of the land of Egypt, in the which you have dwelled: Nor yet after the custom of the land of Chanaan. So the you walk not in their statutes: but see the you observe my ordinances, & that you give good heed to my commandments: to the end that you may walk in them. Let us consider also how the spirit of God, did blame & reprove the ancient 
1. Reg: ●●.  Samaritans: These people did not hearken at all, but did live according to their ancient custom. These people then feared the Lord: but yet they served their Idols notwithstanding. They follow their ancient custom even to this very day. They do not fear the Lord, nor keep that ceremonies & that judgements, & the law, & the commandment that the Lord gave to the son of jacob, which is surnamed Israel. If our predecessors have walked in the ways of the Lord, we may justly allege them: for God hath commanded us to follow such personages: not for their own worthiness, for they are but men as we are, & not Gods: but because that they have followed in the way of the Lord, which saith that it is he, that is the Lord our God, not our fathers. For he is the most ancient father that we have, which only is the father of verity & truth, as the devil is the father of lies, who is in deed a very ancient father, but not so ancient as is God the father of all truth.   

¶ Of the arguments taken of the multitude.  
T. WHat sayest thou of the arguments taken of the multitude? D. If it were lawful to allege the multitude of men, the fools and wicked should always have the better: for they are alway the greatest number. Wherefore we are forbidden in law, to follow the multitude, for to do evil. And our saviour jesus Christ hath willed us to pass thorough the strait way, for it is that way that leadeth to eternal life: & contraryly forbiddeth us to follow the large, thorough the which many pass, for that way leadeth to destruction. 
Esech. 20    

¶ Of the arguments of time ancienty.  
T. WHat sayest thou of those that allege long time & ancienty? D. There is no greater reason in the alleging of time & auncienti, then in the alleging of the multitude. For what is more ancient in this world, then lying, rebellion, and disobedience, manslaughter, violence, extortion, whoredom, Idolatry, villainy, and all kind of wickedness and abomination, for they have had their being even immediately after the beginning of the world, as soon as men were borne into the world. T. These things have begun at the least even from the time, that the devil hath been in the world, which is as ancient as any man that ever was: for he is the ancientest of all creatures, and the father of all the evil that ever was, is, or shallbe in the world, and it is by him, that it is entertained, increased, and maintained.   

¶ Of the fall of the devil, and of his children, whose predecessor he is.  
D. IN deed it is very well said of thee, for our Saviour jesus Christ doth call him not only a liar, but also the father 
john. 8.  of lies. For albeit that God did create him an Angel, and in the same truth that is in God: yet he could not so continue, but did fall from truth into lies, which is the original of all other evils, even as truth is the fountain of 
john. 8.  all goodness. He is also called a mansleyar and a murderer from the beginning. And because that Cain did by and by follow him, S. john sayeth that he is the son of the devil, 
john. 3.  and that he slew his brother because he was of the wicked. And in the same place he saith also: he that sinneth is of the devil: for the devil sinneth even from the beginning. In the which Saint john hath followed the manner of speaking of his master jesus Christ: who called the jews, children 
joh. viii.  of the devil: for that they were liars and murderers of the servants of God, and of him which was and is the very son of God, which thing proceeded of the very hatred that they had against the truth, which was preached unto them by jesus Christ and his Disciples.   

¶ Of the predecessors of the wicked and infidels, and how the ancienty of sins doth procure God's wrath upon men, and doth not excuse them.  
T. IT followeth then by this account, that such as follow and do the work of the devil, are the devils sons & successors. D. The matter is plain, wherefore thou mayest easily perceive by this what predecessors such kind of men may allege, that will follow any other order of life, then that which hath been taught us by God: & what cause they have to glory of ancienty and of old worlds. Let them then allege the devil for their most ancient father, and with his lies fight against the eternal truth of God: let the mansleaers and murderers allege Cain, and the Sodomites, those whose name they bear. All these kinds of men and all other wicked ones have fathers very ancient, they do follow one doctrine and one sort of life, which is very ancient: but truth, virtue, holiness, innocency, & God which is there father, are yet more ancient, for the devil, sin, and lies, of the which he is author, have had their beginning, and reign, and therefore they shall once have an end. But God is eternal, without beginning and without end, and so is his truth, whereof he is father, and of all virtues else. And therefore God doth not only not support heresies, errors, superstitions and Idolatries, because of their ancienty: but contrarily he threateneth the Idolaters and wicked ones, that the longer that they have continued in sin and followed the same, the greater vengeance he will send upon them. Wherefore it is spoken by the Prophet Esay: Behold 
Esay. 65.  it is written before me, I will no longer hold my peace, but will yield and throw into their bosoms, your iniquities, with the iniquities of your fathers also, saith the Lord, and immediately after: whereby I will yield again unto them in their bosom the measure of their first work. The Lord speaketh this upon good occasion, for if the father have been wicked, and the son is yet more wicked, the iniquity of the father doth not amend that of the son, and make it virtue and not vice. T. No, but doth increase it much more, for the more of our predecessors that have been rebels against God, so much the greater is our fault. D. It seemeth unto me, that those which allege their predecessors & ancienty, to maintain thereby their errors and abuse, do even like as doth a traitor, which would excuse and purge himself to ward his prince, whom he hath offended, through his treasons, that should allege in his defence that his predecessors have always been traitors, & lived in the like infidelity towards their princes, as he hath done towards his. thinkest thou not that this excuse were very lawful & meet to appease the prince? T. Even so meet that it mought occasion him to cut clean from the earth so wicked a race, to the end they should never be any more heard of. D. It is even so.   

¶ How that none may so well allege ancienty, as the faithful may, & how that all the allegations of the unfaithful, are nothing else but cloaks, to cover their hypocrisy & wickedness.  
T. FOr so much as it is so, it seemeth unto me, that if ancienty might have place, there are none that may so well allege ancienty as may the true children of God. D. No man may deny yt. For God is the ancient of all worlds, 
Esay. xli. Daniel, seven Apoc. 12. 13  the first & the last, whose truth they follow, by the which they are made his true & lawful children. Wherefore these men may lawfully allege, & command unto their children, that which the Lord spoke by jeremy, search you out among 
jerem. vi.  the ancient paths, which is the good way, & walk in the same. T. I do think that those reasons, which thou hast alleged, are sufficient enough to confute and shame those kinds of men, the use these colours of predecessors, of the multitude, of times, & ages, to cloak therewith their disobedience & rebellion against the word of God: for when all is said there is but one thing, that hindereth all this, to wit that such men will not be obedient to the voice of the Lord, nor take counsel of him, nor follow him. But for so much as they dare not say and declare the same openly, because that they will not be known to be such as they are in deed, but would be thought of men to be honest, and such as fear God, they seek these shifts and starting holes. They are like to those advocates that plead an evil cause, who have determined to do no right to their contrary party, but seek only by cavilling, how to shift out the matter, because that they will never be enforced to grow to any honest end.   

¶ Of the language that is in the heart of the hypocrites & wicked, and how they cloak it before the world.  
D. THou hast stricken the white in the midst, and haste touched the very pith of that universal disease that reigneth through out the world, the which jesus Christ doth thoroughly open unto us, when he sayeth, speaking of his doctrine: That he, that is desirous to do the, will of his 
john. seven.  father, shall soon know whether it be of God or no. There is but one thing, that disguiseth this whole matter: which is that some of them can cover and cloak otherwise and more finely than can the others. T. It is certain, without any circumlocution, that those which search out such starting holes, should rather say even at one word, that which the wicked ones spoke, of whom the Scripture in the book of the Prophets declareth saying, we have nothing to do with 
Esay. lviii. Psal. two.  God: We will not know his ways: nor walk in the same, nor yet bear his yoke. D. It is very true. But that should not be so honourable for them: nor have so good a grace. For although they speak it in their heart, they will in no wise that the world understand it, yea and that which is more vile, they are so beastly, & do so much delight in their folly and filthy sophistry, that they think even by the same to be able to abuse and mock God, even as they abuse and mock men: as though he saw not the wickedness of their hearts, and wanted wisdom & understanding how to trap the subtle and crafty in their cautels and finesses.   

¶ Of the persecutors of the verity, and of the diverse sorts of them.  
T. NOw if those of whom we have already spoken, have very slender reason to allege: how do you think of those that are not contented with such excuses, but employ their whole forces to persecute the truth of God, and as many as will teach & follow the same? D. There are three sorts of these kind of people: there are of them that persecute the truth and those that follow it, of a certain malice, even against the witness that the spirit of God yieldeth in their own consciences, only for hatred that they bear against God and his truth. There are also others which do it not so much for hatred that they bear against the truth, as for the honours and riches which they hope to obtain, by resisting the same, or else that they have already obtained. The third are those that do the like through ignorance.   

¶ Of such as persecute the truth of a purposed malice, and of the sin against the holy Ghost, or sin to death.  
T. WHat sayest thou of the first sort of those men? D. I say that they are of the very nature of the devil, for he hath no cause to hate God, and his truth, but only of the wickedness that is in him, and of the envy and immortal hatred that he doth bear to God and his truth. T. Then is the sin of such men like to the sin of the devil. D. It is even so, wherefore they shall have like punishment, for they shall never obtain pardon nor grace. T. It is then that sin that jesus Christ doth call the sin against the holy Ghost, and saint john, sin unto death, for the which 
Math. xii. john. 5.  he forbiddeth men to pray. But thinkest thou that there are any so wicked and so full of malice upon the earth, that will so of purpose make wars against God? D. If there were none, than would none have been found among the Scribes and Phariseis, and the rest of the jews, before whom jesus Christ made mention of the sin against the holy Ghost. I do think he would have holden no such purpose, ne yet Saint john neither. And I am well assured that Alexander the Coppersmith, of whom Saint Paul complaineth much, writing to Timothe, did very near approach the nature of such, if he were not fully such an one, or else I should greatly marvel of the prayer that saint Paul maketh 
two. Tim. iiii  against him saying: Alexander the Copersmyth hath done me great hurt, the Lord reward him according to his deserts, of whom be thou ware also, for he hath greatly resisted our preaching. If he had offended rather of ignorance, then of malice, I believe that Saint Paul would rather have prayed for him, as he did in the same epistle for others, with whom he was not well pleased, I doubt not but he would have followed the example of jesus Christ, and of saint Steven, who prayed for their persecutors, rather than to have prayed against him. For it seemeth that he had no hope of his conversion and health. T. Men may call these kind of men the most wicked of all wicked, and the eldest sons of the devil. But it is wonderful to see them so wicked, and to see them so despitefully to make wars against God and his truth, and yet they will cover them with the name of God, & of the zeal of his glory. For there is none, be he never so evil, if he be not utterly desperate, but when he persecuteth the truth, he will pretend to favour the same, and would that men should think that he persecuteth not the truth, but error and lies, for the maintenance of God's truth. D. The matter is very apparent, namely in the Scribes and Phariseis, and in the bishops, high Priests, & Princes of jerusalem, which crucified jesus Christ, and 
Math. 24. 27. 28. john. 5. 8. 10. 11. 18. 19  yet feigned that they persecuted him for blaspheming▪ the majesty of God. Wherefore the more that such men so villainously abuse the name of God, wherewith to cover their murders and wickedness, the more are they accursed and worthy of greater judgement.   

¶ Of those that resist the truth wittingly, and do persecute it against their own consciences, to please men thereby, and to get the riches of this world, and of the calamities of these days.  
T. LEt us leave this first kind of men, and let us speak of the other two kinds of persecutors whom thou hast already named. D. The second sort are very near approaching to the nature of the first, because that those that do abuse the knowledge of God, do commonly fall from this degree of evil, into that other extreme degree of wickedness, whereof we even now spoke. I do place in this rank those that do wittingly resist the truth, & do make wars against the people of God, as did Balaam: not for that they have so great a hatred against the truth, as have these others of whom we have already spoken, but they do it to maintain their 
Num. 24. ●●. Peter. two  worldly pomp, and for their particular commodity: or else that they are corrupted, by such as do resist the verity, as is aforesaid. T. The number of such is great. For the chief thing that maketh men to resist the word of God, is, for that it is contrary to their ambition, glory and covetousness, and to all their pleasures and corrupt affections. But among all, there are none more worthy to be accounted such Balamites, than the learned men, that are at this day in Christendom, whose number is great, which set out for higher to Antichrist and his adherentes, both their pens and tongues, to curse or speak evil of those, that they know right well that God doth bless, and to hinder the course of the word of God, and the reformation of his Church. Wherefore I do not greatly marvel, if that God oftentimes doth throw such men into a reprobate sense, which do so wickedly turn the truth of God, unto a lie, and his justice, into injustice, and in this sort oftentimes 
Roma. i.  they become in the end the greatest adversaries of God, & his word that the earth doth bear: to the end that they may fill full the measure of their iniquities. For such a wickedness, and frowardness doth well deserve such a punishment and vengeance, at the hands of God, which is the most horrible that may light upon men.   

¶ Of such as do resist the truth, & persecute the same through ignorance, and zeal without understanding, and of the excuse of the ignorant.  
D. THese people are far worse, then are these of whom we now mean to speak, which do not offend but 
Roma. 10  through ignorance, and of a zeal that they have toward God, which is void of knowledge, as many have done before our time, and namely Saint Paul, in the time that he was a persecuto●● of the Christians, for he himself confesseth that he did it of ignorance: wherefore there is more 
i Timo. i  hope in these kind of men, then in either of the others. T. But I would gladly know, whether these men shallbe excused by their ignorance or no. D. Our Lord jesus Christ saith, that the servant that knoweth his masters will, and doth it not, shallbe more grievously beaten, than he that is ignorant 
Luke. xii  thereof, and doth it not: yet for all that both shallbe punished. He saith also that those which have thrown the Gospel from them, shall receive greater punishments in the day of judgement, than those of Sodom, and Gomorrha, 
Math x Luke. x  unto whom God hath not offered so great grace: yet for all that, he saith not that those of Sodom, and Gomorrha shall escape the judgement. T. This is a marvelous and a horrible threatening.   

¶ How that the want of the knowledge of God, & his truth, reigneth not in man, without his great fault.  
T. THen if those that are ignorant in the doctrine of the Lord, and by means of their ignorance do not fo● low it at all, shall not be excused by their ignorance: how much less shall they that are not only content to be ignorant of it, but do openly persecute the same? For there is no ignorance in that behalf, but that a great piece of the fault is in ourselves. For in how many & sundry sorts doth God daily declare himself to us? By how many means doth he call, and as it were draw us unto him? We do all know that there is one God which is the Lord of all. T. That is very true. D. If he be the Lord of all, than all men are bound to obey his laws and ordinances. T. That is but reason. D. We can not observe and keep them, but first we must know them and understand them. Wherefore before all other things we must seek for this knowledge and understanding. For there is nothing more honest, more profitable, nor more necessary for us; and contrariwise there is no thing more unhonest, more worthy of blame, nor more hurtful, then is the ignorance of the law, and of the will of God. For if the ignorance of any thing that is worthy to be known (men having means to attain to the knowledge thereof) be to be condemned, and that so much the sooner, in so much as the knowledge of the thing is more commendable and more necessary: how much should we esteem unhonest and intolerable the ignorance of the law, and of the will of God? Of the which the knowledge is more necessary for us, then is the light of the sun, and the usage of the fire and water, without the which this human life can not continue. T. I confess no less. For in as much as the soul of man is more excellent than is the body, even so are the things more excellent & more necessary that do concern the soul, or at the least both soul and body together, then are those which appertain only to the body. For if the soul be well and in good case, the body can not be but well: but if the body be well entreated and delicately used, and the soul evil entreated and negligently looked unto, the evil entreaty of the soul shall in the end make the body partaker of the same.   

¶ Of the great care and diligence that is in men to get those things that do appertain to this present life, and of their negligence and carelessness that they do use, as touching those things that appartayne to the life eternal.  
D. Therefore I do not a little marvel to see the great pains and travails, that men take to maintain this casual and miserable life: which is as it were, of the continuance of one day in comparison, yea in deed very short and full of sorrow and misery, which life also many do not pass thorough even to the end, and yet do they learn many Arts, Sciences and occupations through great diligence, labour and travail, to the end to be by them sustained and maintained in this present life: & that there are so few that have any care to learn that Art and Science, by the which we may attain to that eternal and most blessed life which shall continued with us for ever. For what is the whole age of a man even from the day of his birth to the day of his death? T. It is as it were the time of one day, and is more short to some, then to others: If we shall compare it with the age of that life which lasteth for ever. D. Yet do we learn Arts, and Sciences and occupations, in number, in manner infinite which can stand us in no stead, but only in this miserable and wretched life: And on the contrary, we have but one to learn which is able to lead us out of all the miseries and wretchedness, wherein we are here wrapped, and to make us happy for ever: and yet we make none account thereof, but fie from it, reject it, and persecute it: How shall we now be able to excuse ourselves? We will rise three or four hours before day, yea at midnight: We will ride & run day and night, both by sea and land, with great pain and travail, and oftentimes in great danger of life, and 
Heb. 1. Act. x.  all this will we do to gain a little piece of money. But although that God doth send us his Prophets, his Apostles, yea his own son, and that he doth teach us by the mouth of his servants, which is his own mouth, through the which he speaketh to us daily in his Church, and doth present unto us his gifts and graces in our own houses, yea even in our beds and tables: Yet notwithstanding we will not vouchsafe once to receive him, we will understand nothing of him, nor yet learn any thing of him. Shall we then allege our ignorance, and excuse ourselves by it? Our Lord jesus Christ did very well understand of this sickness, and of the danger thereof, wherefore he said to those people that did follow him more for their belly, then for any spiritual doctrine: Employ yourselves and travail, not for that meat that perisheth, but for that which endureth 
john. 6.  into eternal life, the which the son of man shall give unto you. When he nameth by the name of meat his doctrine, which is the doctrine of salvation, and the salvation which he bringeth unto us by means of the same, the which we can find in none but in him only: He therefore giveth us plainly to understand how much this doctrine, and this health are necessary for us, and how earnestly and diligent lie we should labour for them: for so much as they are things that are much more necessary to eternal life, then is the bodily meat, for the corporal life, and it is so much more precious, as is the soul more precious than the body.   

¶ Of the diligence that is in men to do evil, and of their negligence to do well.  
T. THou sayest nothing at all of such as employ their whole study and travail to do evil, If every one of us would take so great travail in the search of this holy work, whereof thou speakest, as doth the thief to rob, or the whore in the use of her whoredom, we should accomplish a goodly work. The thieves rise up in the night, & put themselves in great danger and, take very great pains to cut men's throats: and we will not once lift up our head from our pillow to waken us, and to open our eyes to behold and consider those things that appertain to our salvation. Satan our mortal enemy is so dillgent, and continually lieth in wait to find means how to ruinated and destroy 
1. Peter. ●  us, and we of our part are utterly slothful and negligent in arming ourselves against his ambushes and assaults, whereby we might avoid his snares. Wherefore all things well considered, I see very small reason wherewith to excuse men: For there is no man but may find means sufficient to attain to this knowledge of God. If that we were so careful of the eternal life, as we are of this present life, and would as willingly seek for the one, as for the other: for there is nothing that might aid us in that behalf, but God hath given it unto us.   

¶ Of the vices that make men ignorant of God and of his truth, and how the servants of God continually bring accusation against them.  
D. Saint Paul was not ignorant of this, and therefore although he say that he hath obtained mercy for his 
1. Tun. 1.  persecuting the Church of God through ignorance, yet doth he not excuse himself by the same, nor letteth to show the grievousness of his sin, calling himself the greatest of sinners, a blasphemer, a persecutor, a man full of violence and oppression, and acknowledgeth himself worthy of death and eternal damnation. If God of his great mercy and grace had not succoured him, whereof he should not have needed, if that he had not sinned, or if that his ignorance mought have excused him. For how good so ever his meaning was, or how great so ever his zeal was toward the law of God, yet notwithstanding his ignorance was not without a great portion of that negligence and carelessness which is naturally in men as touching the knowledge of God and godly things, nor without some portion of the pride, rashness, wilfulness, presumption, and arrogancy of the Phariseis, and of the leaven of hypocrisy and superstition, which are very great vices, from the which even those that are most perfect and holy, cannot well shift them, although they do not appear unto men. T. If then this doth happen to such as are of the most perfect sort, as to Saint Paul: what shall become then of a sort of glorious and arrogant hypocrites, which are much more full of hypocrisy, then of good conscience, and have a greater care for their own glory and profit, then for the glory of God, and the edification of his church, and have such an opinion of their own knowledge, justice and perfection, that they think that no man may amend or correct any jot thereof? For there be very few such ignorant ones amongst the persecutors of the church, as was saint Paul before his conversion. D. There is no doubt of that. Saint Peter doth also impute unto ignorance, in the sermon that he made in Jerusalem 
Act. 2.  upon the day of Pentecost, that which the jews committed against our Lord jesus Christ, in the delivering of 
Math. 17. john. 18.  him to death, & preferring of Barrabas before him: yet not withstanding doth not he let to lay it greatly to their charges, as very murderers of the true author of life, and very son of God. T. I perceive by that thou sayest, that God requireth of us very great diligence, and a great humility, abjection, and despising of ourselves: and that our negligence, sloth, presumption, and arrogancy, and our vain glory and opinion that we have of ourselves, are most commonly the cause of our damnable ignorance. D. It is even so.   

¶ Of such as do contemn the knowledge of God, even as though they did know all things that appertain to true Christianity, and also of the knowledge that men may attain unto in this life, and how to increase it.  
T. I May well understand by these, what excuses those men may allege, that say, when they are willed to inquire of the will of God, and of his word, and in what sort they should live, that they will understand and know no more in that behalf than they do already know: for that they do already know as much as they ought to know, even as though a man in this whole life time were able to come to such perfection of knowledge and understanding of godly things, that nothing mought be added thereunto. D. Saint Paul, who was taken up into the third 
2. Cor. 1●. 13.  heaven, and did there understand of things, of the which it is not lawful for any man to speak: was never of that opinion. For he doth declare, that all that ever we may understand upon the earth, of those matters, is nothing else but 
1. Cor. 13.  as we should behold a thing in a glass, or in a dark cloud or mist. Wherefore whilst that we do live in this world, we must think that we are always like unto little children, as touching this godly understanding, and that we have need to profit and increase in the same daily, even as do the little children that are at the school: and that we shall never see it as it is, until that we be with God, and see him face to face, and know him as he hath known us. For if there be no man of so excellent a spirit, that ever may attain unto the perfect understanding of humane and visible things, nor yet of one of those sciences that appertaineth unto this earthly life: how great presumption is it then for man, which is wholly created ignorant, as touching godly things, so much to challenge to himself the knowledge and understanding of those things, of the which the Angels themselves cannot perfectly understand: T. Surely it is a great presumption of us, if we think that we be more perfect than are the Angels.   

¶ Of the true knowledge of God, and of the true manner how to know his will, and of the contemplative and active knowledge of the same.  
D. OF the other part there is one thing to be considered in the knowledge and understanding of the will of God, which thing few men do note. That is, that we may not judge of that science and knowledge, as we do of divers human sciences, of the only knowledge where of many men hold them well satisfied, without any further practice of the same. For this godly knowledge consisteth not only in contemplation, requiring nothing but contemplative teachers, to instruct the mind of man, but require also the will, and active Teachers and practisers. And for this cause Christ doth not say only, he that will know, but he that will do the will of him that sent me, he shall know of my doctrine, whether it be of God, or 
joh. 7.  whether I speak of myself. For there are, that for curiosity and for some other affection that they have that are desirous to know the will of God, but not to that end to direct their lives according to the same. And therefore our Lord jesus Christ declareth plainly by these words, that there is nothing that letteth men from the knowledge of the truth of God, but only the want of the fear of God, and of good will to obey and honour him: Wherefore it followeth that there is no true knowledge of God, but only that which is joined with this good and prompt will, and that none can judge of the lords doctrine, but those that are of such a mind. T. If the matter be so, a man may not think, that he understandeth or knoweth any thing, although he have all the holy scriptures by heart, and that he can devise and discourse thereof at pleasure like an Angel: if he have not the effect of that doctrine imprinted in his heart, and that he be as it were clothed with the same, in such sort as he may put the same in practice at all times.   

¶ Of the true study of the holy scriptures, and of the true fruit that cometh of the same.  
D. THat is very true. For if it were sufficient to have only a bare knowledge of God's word, and so behold it in the air, without having of the will reform by the same, the devil should in this sort exceed all men in religion: For he hath knowledge and understanding enough, if that he had a will according to the same. And therefore, it is not only needful for us to hear the word of God, and to study the same, for to understand that, that is contained in that same doctrine, and then to proceed no further, and to make it as it were a study of philosophy contemplative: But we do chief need to wrap and cloth us therein, and to put in use, and to practise in our lives that which we do understand and know, or else to what end doth our knowledge and understanding serve?  
For to what end doth a man learn an occupation? Is it for that he will never use it, or else only to talk of it, without practising the same. wouldst thou think him perfect in any occupation, that never did practise the same, nor never declared his experience by any piece of his work? T. No truly. D. wouldst thou then think him to be a good Christian, that only doth boast him of the name and knowledge of Christianity, without the declaring of the same by his works. T. No in deed.   

¶ Of such Christians as are ignorant of the word of God, and of those that abuse their knowledge in the same.  
D. ANd now, which thinkest thou more worthy of blame, either he that doth know no occupation, and worketh not: or else he that hath a good occupation, and had rather to loiter, and to be slothful and idle, then to work at his occupation? T. This last man, which doth most abuse the gift of God. Wherefore, if I should see such men in necessity, I would not very willingly give alms to him that hath had so small care to learn some occupation, whereby he might justly live: much less to give unto him that had rather fast, and become a beggar, then to work and travail for his living, when he may. D. And how wouldst thou handle him, that hath a goodly wit, and is well exercised and very excellent in some occupation, and doth travail in the same with all diligence, but not to do any thing, whereby the glory of God, or the wealth of his neighbour might be advanced: but rather to let and hinder both the one and the other, and to live in all villainy and filthiness? T. I would judge him worthy to be hanged, or at the least to be whipped. For if the others be worthy to be accounted unprofitable and wicked, this kind of man is much more worthy to be so accounted of: in as much as he is not 
Matth. 24. and. 25.  only content to hide in the earth the talents that God hath given him, and so to keep them without yielding any profit of them: but that worse is, he bestoweth them wickedly, employing them in all that he may, to the hindrance and loss of his master, and to make wars against him, at whose hands he hath received them. D. Then consider thou well, whether the Christian be worthy of great blame, that hath no understanding of Christianity, nor of that occupation, whereof he beareth the name. What honour is this man worthy of, that hath the knowledge thereof, and abuseth the same, and doth not only, not practise the same in life, but converteth the gifts that he hath received of God, into weapons wherewith to make wars against him, and against his own salvation: to what end serveth this knowledge? T. It serveth to his more speedy condemynation, and to increase his judgement more and more.   

¶ How much necessary the study of the word of God is, for all men during this life, how apt and how wise so ever they be.  
D. FOr this cause it is more than necessary, that we study continually in the school of the Lord. first there to learn how to judge between the good and the evil, & that which pleaseth or displeaseth God, & that which is for our salvation & damnation, which we can not do unless that we have our minds lightened by the word and spirit of God, for so much as there is in us, whiles that we dwell in our own natural life, nothing else but ignorance & darkness. And when we are once thus taught, it is then needful that we give our whole desire unto it, which can not be, for 
1. Cor, 12.  so much as it is wholly perverted and corrupted, hating that which is good, and loving that which is evil, if it be not also reform, forced, & urged continually to the same by that very mean. Wherefore to conclude, for so much as we have always ignorance within us, and that most commonly we do not that good which we know, we have always need of this teacher, to instruce us in that whereof we are yet ignorant, and put us in mind of that which we forget, after that we have learned it, and to cause us to practise that which we do already know. T. And in this sort thou dost conclude for a full resolution, the all men, how wise so ever they be, have always need to learn in this school, even to the death, and that both the learned and ignorant, shall always find enough there to learn. D. It is so. For there are forms so high in that school, that no living man shall ever be able to attain unto them. Wherefore when we may be in that school, yea although it be in the most low forms, we ought not a little to esteem it, but to think it a great grace of God, whose good will and pleasure it is to accept us into the number of his scholars.   

¶ Of the desired ignorance, and of such as are willingly ignorant.  
T. FOr so much as thou hast spoken of forms and orders of scholars, I would fain know in what place thou wouldst place this kind of men, of whom we have not yet spoken: among whom, when they have been required to go to hear the word of God, I have seen some of them refuse it, saying that they will not hear it, fearing lest that after they have heard it, & known the will of God by the same: they should be more faulty, in as much as they did not obey the same. D. It is not possible to find such men that bore so shameleslye once to open their mouths in such sort. T. I speak that which I have heard with mine own ears. But how many thinkest thou that there are, who when they have known that the word of God is wholly contrary to their affections, and that it teacheth nothing but that which is good and holy, they will for that cause in no wise hear it? for so much as they fear to hear that which shall not like them, and that they desire not at all to know those good things that they may learn of the same, and last of all to do them, when they have understood & known them. D. The ignorance of such is an affected & voluntary ignorance, much less worthy of pardon, then is that of those of whom we spoke before. For these men where they should study to avoid ignorance, and to become wise in the knowledge of God, seek means as much as in them is to be still ignorant, and to fly the knowledge of God, without the which they are not only unworthy, to be accounted Christians, but unworthy to be accounted men. These men put themselves in great peril, they are of the number of those that the psalmist speaketh of, which stop their ears, as do the 
Psal. 57  Asps and Serpents against the voice of the enchanter, fearing that being enchanted by the word of God, they should lose their poison, and their serpentine and devilish nature, the which they would still possess. T. It is very true.   

¶ How that the publication that God hath made of his word, and the declaration that he hath given of himself and of his will even from the beginning, maketh the ignorance of men to be without excuse.  
D. IF that the subject of any prince be taken, and have offended the prince his laws, after that they have been published lawfully by sound of trumpet through out the whole country: shall he then say that he was ignorant of them, and so be excused▪ T. I think not so, for that should make men careless for the search of the understanding of the prince's laws; and then would every man allege such excuses: and by these means the laws should have no place, and the majesty of the prince be had in contempt, & all his laws and ordinances should be but a mockery, and the publication of them should be no more available, then if they were not published at all: for the publication is for none other purpose, but to take away all occasions by the which men may pretend ignorance. D. But if that the prince were advertised that such a man had been admonished to harken to the publication of his laws and ordinances, and that he would nothing understand thereof, but did all that he could possible because that he would hear nothing of them, to the intent that he might be the more void of constraint to observe them: should that be an excuse for him towards his prince? T. No, but should make him more inexcusable & more worthy of blame, for the contempt in the behalf should be very great & not sufferable. D. Then if it be so that a prince can not endure to have his majesty so contemned & despised: May God which is the Sovereign prince of all princes, endure it toward his majesty, after so great a proclamation of his will, as he hath continually made unto men, even from the beginning of the world, & doth daily by marvelous means.   

¶ Of the means by the which God hath, and doth declare himself daily to men.  
T. I Pray thee declare unto me somewhat particularly, by what means he doth this whereof thou speakest. D. First he doth it by the firmament, and by the earth, and by all his creatures: which as continual preachers, never cease day, nor night, to preach unto us the knowledge & marvelous works of that same great God and prince their creator, even as David and S. Paul do witness. After that the great 
Psal. 1●. Rom. 1. Act. 14. 17.  endeavour of so many patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles and ancient Doctors, with a marvelous number of other good servants of God, who by their pure and holy doctrine, good life and conversation, have filled that whole earth with the knowledge of God, and also do teach us at this present day by their holy writings. But what shall we say of the very son of God, who came into the world in proper person, to make this publication in the most solemn manner that ever was made in the world? And even at this present day, how many and sundry means hath God given us to be instructed by, either by the mouth of diverse which he sendeth unto us daily, or else by books written in all languages, sent forth into the world, to all nations and regions of the same, by his most marvelous providence, which thing shall make us all to be utterly without excuse. Wherefore we may well say with the Prophet: The people which 
Ose. 4.  are ignorant shall be beaten, and because that thou haste contemned and refused knowledge, I will contemn thee and cast thee from me also.   

¶ Of those that cloak their rebellion against the word and will of God, under colour of obedience which they owe to the laws that their princes have made against the same: & of such as commit the charge of their consciences to their curates and pastors.  
T. THere are yet others that have a little better colour, which say, that they will believe as their princes do, and that they are bound to obey all their laws and ordinances. There are also an other sort which commit themselves wholly into the hands of their Bishops and curates, which are their pastors, and spiritual fathers, and only those that have the charge of their souls, and consciences, and shall render account, and endure the punishment for them, if that through their negligence they be evil instructed. D. I fear that it fareth with many of those men that have such shifts, as it did with the Citizens of jerusalem, which greatly marveled to see their Lords and rulers to suffer jesus Christ without contradiction to teach openly in their temple, considering that before that time they sought means to put him to death, all the while that they thought that their governors and pastors condemned both jesus Christ and his doctrine, and that they forbade that any man should speak of him: this was a sufficient impeachment to hinder them from coming to him. But afterward when they saw that they had left of to pursue him, and that they were of the opinion that they had changed their purpose, and did acknowledge jesus Christ to be the true Christ, they did then no more depend upon the judgements and consciences of the rulers and prelate's, nor would in any wise follow the opinion that they then knew that they had of Christ, but builded themselves upon fair theology, and began to dispute with themselves to be a hindrance to themselves, saying: 
john. 7.  we know well from whence this fellow is. But when the Christ shall come, no man shall know from whence he is. Wherefore do they not now say we must acknowledge him for such an one, for that, that our pastors do so. We do here see the nature of man is prompt to follow rather evil examples then good. T. It is even so. D. And on the other part I can not say, whether that these men that would have it seen to the world, that they have so good an opinion of their princes, and are so ready to obey their laws and ordinances, would make any great conscience to betray and sell them even in their great need, if there were any goodly occasion offered unto them by other princes better, to advance them to honours & estates, then by their own. But I would gladly know whether they do make so great difficulty to violate and break the good statutes that are made by their princes, for the maintenance of their common wealth, and to withhold from them, if they might safely do it without danger of their person, any part of the tribute & custom that is due unto them by God's ordinance: 
Rom. 13. Math. 22.  as they do to transgress those wicked laws which are made contrary to all right & equity for to hinder the course of the Gospel, & would seek to understand the will of God, and to know those things that are necessary for the health of their souls, & to serve God as he himself hath commanded in his law! I fear that this great obedience which the greatest number of them do bear toward their princes and their laws, proceedeth rather of rebellion which they have in their hearts against God: then of the truth & good affection which they bear toward their prince and his laws. But because they dare not declare openly the malice that is in their hearts, they are very glad to have this colour, & would rather have tyrants to their princes, which should forbid them to hear the voice of the Lord, then to have good & Christian princes which should compel them to hear, serve, and honour God.   

¶ Of those which commit idolatries to their princes, preferring their laws before the laws of God, & what authority God's word hath over all men, and over all their laws.  
T. I Fear that there are many such, but there are many others that are not the worst people of the world, but yet they are idolaters of their princes. D. Thou dost rightly term such men idolaters of their princes, for in that they take their princes for their law in matters of religion & conscience, and seek not otherwise to understand the will of God, they make them their Gods and their idols, and do them great wrong, for it appertaineth to no prince nor to any creature what soever or how excellent he be, no not to the very Angels of God, to give laws of religion & of the service of God, but only to God himself, unto whom this service & the honour of such things doth appertain. And therefore S. Paul saith, that if he himself, yea if an Angel 
Galath. i.  coming from heaven should declare any other Gospel then that which he hath taught, which is the true Gospel of Christ, let the same Angel be a cursed. If he make the very Angels subject to the word of God, how much rather should all men which are but mortal creatures be subject to the word of God? For unto whom doth it belong to give laws, either to the prince or else to his subjects? T. It is for the prince to give laws, & for the subjects to receive & observe the same. D. Well then if religion have none other regard, but to the honour & service of the only God, and that his pleasure is that none shall have power of the souls & consciences of men, but only he himself, and that he hath as great authority over the greatest monarchs, Emperors, Kings, princes & lords, as he hath over the meanest of their subjects, how great a presumption should this be of them: to dare take in hand to give laws to their sovereign prince (I say of those that are but his subjects & vassals) to command that men shall serve him according to their appointment, & not to his? T. That were to be Lord & not subject, master and not servant. D. Would they themselves endure this at the hands of the greatest of their subjects? And yet is there no such comparison between God & them, as is between them & their subjects. For they are mortal men as their subjects are, they may err as other men may. And fall by the just judgements of God, from rule into servitude & subjection, yea oftentimes into the subjection of their own subjects, as it hath oftentimes happened to many: for that they would not obey God, but took in hand to be above him, none of these things may happen to God.   

¶ Of the office of good princes and good subjects.  
T. IT is not then the office of a good prince, to abolish the orders of religion, which God hath given, or to forbid his subjects to follow the same, either else to change them and to give and establish others at his pleasure. D. This is easy to understand, but in the contrary, his office is to cause his subjects to observe them by all means possible, and he himself to be the first, to give good example, that should observe those laws which God hath given unto him, and to govern his people according to the same: for he is ordained of God, to be a prince for none other purpose. And therefore the Lord did command that the book of the law should be red to the king, even as soon as he was chosen, to the end 
Rom. 13. 1. Tim. 1. Deut. 1●.  he should know how to govern both himself and the people committed to his charge, according to the doctrine of the same. If he be then such an one as he ought to be, he will in no wise that his subjects shall do him that honour, which in no wise appertaineth unto him: but will in any wise have that reserved to God, unto whom only it is due. He thinketh that his subjects can do to him no greater honour than to honour God, as they ought to do, for his honour dependeth upon the honour of God, and he can not miss to be will honoured and faithfully served of his subjects, if that both he and his subjects do truly & faithfully serve God. Wherefore his subjects should do him the greatest wrong, and the greatest dishonour that is possible to imagine, in giving to him the honour which is not due unto him, nor ought of him to be accepted, for it should be to set him in the place of God, and to make him an idol, & a very devil: for that it is an honour which the devil alway desireth, to be esteemed in the place of God. D. He hath always showed it even from the beginning.   

¶ How those men obey the devil, and not their princes, which obey any laws, by the which it is forbidden men truly to serve God.  
T. ANd if a man should find any prince of that unspeakable pride, as there have been heretofore amongst the Emperors, Kings, and Heathen princes, and as the Pope is at this day in Christendom, following their trace and example, the subjects were no more bound to obey him, in that behalf, then to obey the devil, which is in deed a greater prince than all Tyrants, and all such as look for like honours: for he is called the God of this world, the prince of this world, and the master of all blindness: unto whom all these little tyrants are but subjects and vassals, and as 
2. Cori, 1. john. 12 Ephe. 26  it were of his little claws. And therefore, when subjects are brought to this extremity, they may lawfully use, not only the same that the Apostles did, who answered in the like 
Act. 5.  case, it is better to obey God then man: but they may allege also in their defence these words, it is better to obey, God than the Devil. For he that obeyeth man against the commandment of god he obeyeth devil by whom he is possessed, and therefore shall inherito the inheritance with the devil and with the tyrants, of whom they did stand more in fear, then of God.   

¶ Of the lawful laws and statutes of Christian princes, and what men ought to consider in them.  
T. I Do think that thy meaning in this, is not, but that it is lawful for Christian princes to give such laws and ordinances to their subjects, as are agreeable to the word of God, to lead them into true Religion. D. How should I condemn that, for so much as I say, it is their only office and duty for in so doing, they themselves preach the law of God, but that whereof I spoke before, I mean of such laws & edicts as are made directly against the word of God, either to abolish, or else to deface the true religion. T. Such as do so, are very tyrants & not princes. D. Doubt you not but Nabuchodnesar, Darius, and Cyrus, these heathen 
Daniel. 3. 4. Es●r. ●  Emperors & Kings, that have made so good laws, for the publishing of the knowledge of God, thorough out their whole Empires and dominions, and have also so well aided the true servants of God, but they shall rise in the judgement of the Lord, to accuse grievously those princes that have been renowned in the number of Christians, and have after so great light of the Gospel, letted & hindered the preaching of the knowledge of God and his will, in the advancement whereof the afore named have travailed.   

¶ Of such as are unfaithful servants in princes Courts: and of their Counsels against God, and of those princes, that do rather favour such servants, than those that are of conscience whole and sound.  
T. IT may be that there are Christian princes, which make laws very contrary, to those that they would make, if they had in their Courts such Courtiers, as was Daniel, Es●ras, and Nehemie, which would procure and stir them up to glorify the name of God, as did these good servants and holy Prophets of God, among the others. But in the stead of such, they have oftentimes those that are clean contrary, who as much as they may do, let them from the hearing and understanding of the word of God, whereby they might learn truly to understand their office and duty, and they do not let by all means possible, to procure them to persecute that doctrine, which they ought chiefly to advance and maintain. D. It is not greatly to be marveled at: for such men often times deal with princes, as doth the fowler with the birds that he setteth for his stale. For they establish such Religion as pleaseth them, and seemeth unto them best for their purpose, to nourish and maintain their ambition and their bellies. And because they want power to authorize their laws and ordinances, whereby to maintain their abuse, they abuse the power and authority of the princes in that behalf, training them by their wicked and lend council to do whatsoever pleaseth them. And as these men do often times abuse the ignorances and negligences of princes, even so on the other part, princes oftentimes abuse the malicious minds of such men: to serve their ambition, tyrannics, and wicked enterprises. Wherefore they do more esteem them being such, then if they were more honest, for they could not endure them if they were honest, and would give them faithful council, both for the honour of God, and the health both of their own souls, and of their subjects also, because they have a desire to obey God, and to set his people in Christian liberty to serve him, nor yet to reform the Church according to his word, but rather to pervert the true religion, and to make it serve to their purpose, even as jeroboam did. They had rather to have such Prophets, & Priests as had jeroboam, Achab, & jesabel, and such as were the Magitiens of Pharaoh, the more cleanly thereby to resist gods truth, them to have the true servants of God that follow the trace of the true Prophets & Apostles, And for so much as both they & their people desire such, & do well deserve to have such, God doth send them even such as they wish for: but it is in his wrath, as he threateneth by his Prophets, to the end they may have the more meet matter, daily to harden their hearts more & more, and more speedily 
Esay. 3. 29. Ose. 5. 7.  to hasten their destruction.   

¶ Of the judgement of the Christian doctrine, and of those by whom it must be reported, & of the prince's duty in that behalf, and of the fault of those that in the same, despise the Council of the servants of God.  
T. I Do fear also that there be many that trust to much in matters of Religion, to those that falsely name themselves to be of the Church, as Prelates and Pastors of the Church, and that it fareth with them, even as it doth with those that commit wholly their souls, and consciences into the hands of their Curates and Prelates. D. It is certain that in all states there are some that think of religion as they do of some science or handy craft. Wherefore when there happeneth any controversy, they think that the knowledge thereof doth in no wise appartaine to them, but that it is enough for them to commit the deciding of the matter into the hands of the masters of the occupation, and then to give their sentence, according to the report that those men shall make, and to esteem done and concluded, what soever they conclude. T. It seemeth to me that their opinion is not very evil. For who can better judge of an art, or occupation, than the masters thereof? Were it not a great presumption for any man, to take upon him to judge of that, which he neither understandeth nor knoweth? D. This that thou sayest, is not all together void of appearance: but here must we take good heed, that no man be deceived, for sith that here is the question, whether that men of occupation, shall judge of things appertaining to their occupation, thou must then understand, that ●p man can truly judge of the Christian doctrine, but such as are true Christians: for no man can understand the heavenly language, and the language of God, but only the children of God, and those that are heavenly, and not earthly. Wherefore I do more esteem, the judgement of a simple labourer, being one of the elect of god, and regenerate by his holy spirit, then that of all the Popes, Bishops, Priests, Philosophers and Doctors, which shallbe infidels or hypocrites, for such are not of the occupation whereof we speak. And as touching that which thou sayest, that I do not allow the council or act of a prince, if he take in hand to do any thing of his own head, in matter of Religion, without asking at the mouth of the Lord, and taking advise & council of him, by the help of those, unto whom he hath given special charge to open, and make manifest his will unto men, and to declare his law unto them. And for this cause he hath done this honour to his Prophets, and true Ministers of his Church, to call them his mouth, promising that he will put high word into their mouth. And when the princes or people have taken in hand any thing, that hath appertained to the honour of God, and to their health, without inquiring of the Lords will, at the hands of his Prophets, he hath rebuked them, because they did not ask at his 
Esay. 1. 30. Ose. 1.  mouth, & that they have weaved their cloth, but not by his spirit, he speaketh to the same purpose by Malachi. The lips of the Priest do keep knowledge: men shall inquire of 
Mal●. i.  the law at his mouth, for he is the angel and messenger of the Lord of hosts.   

¶ Of the causes why the princes should inquire of the will of God at the mouth of his Ministers, and of the gifts of God, with the which he endueth his Ministers.  
T. IT seemeth unto me, that it is very commendable in a prince, chief when there is question of the reformation of the Church, to inquire in that behalf, of the will of God at the hands of those that are appointed by God, to declare the same unto him. D. The thing is not only honest, but so necessary as nothing is more necessary. For albeit the prince be of the wisest of his Realm, yet notwithstanding, he can not know all things, but may oftentimes deceive himself, even in his own devices. Wherefore, if he will at any time use the counsel of his counsellors, in matters of less importance, or at the least he is not thought to be wise, if that he do contemn it: how much is it more requisite to do it, in a matter of so great weight, which toucheth the honour of God, and the health, or damnation of every man, and not only of the person of the prince, but also of all his subjects? T. Such a matter is well worthy to be considered. D. Of the other side it is very like, that a good Pastor, which maketh special profession of the study of the holy Scriptures, and hath commission from God to expound them to others, is more exercised than others, which are less occupied in the same, and more occupied in other affairs, chief princes, which are daily troubled with business upon business, from all parts. T. That is very true. D. This is also to be considered: That although God be bound to no sort of men or estates, but that he may distribute his gifts and graces to whom it pleaseth him: yet for all that the matter is so, that he hath a great regard to that holy Ministry, which he hath ordained in his Church. Wherefore he doth commonly more adorn with his gifts and graces, those which he hath justly and lawfully called to the same, than any others. In like sort that for the love of the same, he doth bestow often times goodly and excellent 
Num. 14. john. 11. 18  gifts, even upon those that are evil, to the end they shall serve in his Church, of the which he hath continually a singular care, we have manifest example hereof, in Balaam, and Caiphas: for although he were as evil a man as the earth doth bear, & that the gift of god did profit him nothing as touching himself: yet notwithstanding for the love of him, whose person he doth represent (as s. john doth right will give us to understand) 
john. xv  God to honour this holy ministry ordained in his law, hath made him to Prophecy: Although he have reproved that man & all his counsels. T. This is worthy to be considered. D. Then if princes and all other men do this honour to those that are skilful in any thing, to demand their advise and counsel, and in that behalf to be governed rather by them, then by any others, they should do great dishonour, not only to the Ministers of God, but also to their ministry, & to God which is auctor thereof, if they esteem them less in their estate, and do make less account of their counsel than they do of the counsel of others which are not of like price.   

¶ Of the dishonour that those kind of men do unto God, which do not vouchsafe to inquire of his will at the hands of his Ministers, and what authority the ministery of the Church hath over all men.  
T. THey would not do them so great honour, as did the ancient Pagans' and Idolaters, here tofore to their false Prophets. For because they did hold them for true Prophets, yet in their error they had this reverence towards God, that hardly durst they enterprise any thing that was of importance: chief in things that appartained to Religion, without inquiring of the will of their Gods, at the hands of their Prophets. D. Thou sayest truth. And therefore it should be a great dishonour & reproach to those that are Christians, if they do not God and his Prophets so great honour at least, as did the Pagans and Idolaters to the devil and his Ministers: thinking to honour God, and his servants. And beside this, if there were none other reason but only this: which is, to wit, that God hath willed that his Church should be governed by the ministery of his word, which if it were not, but only to observe the order, that God himself hath appointed: yet is it requisite that all men, both great & small, submit them to that holy ministry, & to that order which god hath established in the same, as all the good kings & princes of the people of God have always done, notwithstanding they have been marvelously endued with the gifts of God. Was there ever prince, king, or Prophet, more excellent than David, which was both a king, and a Prophet? T. I think not. D. Yet notwithstanding, when he would give order for the building of the temple, & for that offices & ministries appertaining to that service of God, he did take in hand nothing without the advise of the Prophets of the Lord, & namely of Nathan: by 
2. Sam. 7 i. Chro. 17.  whom he understood, that the Lords will was that the temple should not builded by him, although he had determined, and purposed it, but by his son Solomon. In like manner Moses, 
Exod. 1●.  that great and excellent Prophet, did he contemn the counsel of Ieth●o, his father in law, which was of far meaner estate than he?   

¶ Of the mean and order that princes should keep in judgement of things, appertaining to Religion, and to the reformation of the same.  
T. ALl those things do confirm the opinion of those that will commit all things that touch Religion, to those that are called men of the Church, without dealing therein themselves. D. If thou didst well understand me, I did not conclude that princes, & other men should so address than, to the Ministers of the Church, in matters of Religion & conscience, that they should not deal therein so far as their office should require, and to take good heed to what kind of men they came: lest that in stead of coming to the true Prophets of God and Ministers of jesus Christ, they should address them to false Prophets and Ministers of Antechriste, as often times it happeneth. T. This matter is perilous. D. Therefore, as those men are greatly to be blamed, that make none account of the true Ministers of God, and of his Church, but will govern the Church, and determine of those things which appertain to the reformation of the same, following their own fantasy and opinion, or else as though they had to determine of some worldly policy: even so on the contrary part, these kind of men, are greatly to be blamed, which will not deal in it at all, but suffer others to determine of it even as it pleaseth them, and are ready to execute that which others shall appoint, without having any consideration of the thing themselves. But even as shall please the others, without due examyning and understanding what they do. For, as the first sort usurp a great tyranny over the Church, and over the ministery of the same, like unto that of the antichrist, who hath plucked to himself the authority to dispose of the Church at his pleasure: in like manner this last sort do wrong to themselves, and do frame and establish a derye dangerous tyranny, both against themselves, & against the whole Church, and do confirm Antechriste in the possession which he hath all ready usurped over them. For albeit that a judge, before he give sentence, and before he will execute the same, do ask the advise and counsel of his assistants, yet doth he not give his judgement according to their sentences, until he have well examined and understood them. Otherwise he should put himself in great danger, and his office should not be greatly differing from the office of a hang man. For the hang man doth not assist in the counsel of the judges, he giveth no sentence, he hath no voice, nor meddleth with their process or causes of those that are delivered into his hands: he hath nothing to do but only to execute that which is given him in charge. But a judge, hath far other authority and greater charge, the which Pilate did very well know. And therefore he would not condemn jesus Christ upon the only report of the jews, when they had brought him unto him, all ready condemned in their Counsel: nor was forthwith pressed to command him to be executed as an evil doer, according to their desire, but did diligently inquire of the causes, for the which they would have him to be condemned: giving them plainly to understand, that he would not be their hangmen, but would do the office of a judge, which is duly to examine the cause. And if he see the sentence of his assistants to be unjust, he ought not to follow it, but to reject it, according to the authority that God hath given him: and he ought to put in use that, which is written in the law to 
Exod, 10  that same purpose. Thou shalt not follow the multitude, to do evil, for if he give sentence contrary to right and equity, he shall make answer for the same before God. For if he know it be unjust, and do consent and agree to it, or else do dissemble the matter, or else thorough negligence he hath not sought to understand the truth of it. he can not excuse himself but that he is greatly culpable before God. T. That is very true.   

¶ How men ought to have greater care for those matters that appertain to Religion: then for any others, and the reasons why.  
D. Moreover, the case in matters of Religion is not like to that of other matters, or of other arts, sciences, occupations and estates. For when there is question in matters of Religion, we have not a matter in hand of a piece of money, or of a piece of land, or for an other man which toucheth not us at all. But a matter of the greatest importance, that may be, and toucheth all men in general and in particular, so near, as nothing in the world doth so nearly touch them. If there were question, of a piece of an earthly inheritance, or else of our honour & fame, we would not so greatly put others in trust, but that we would put to our own hand: & would know in what sort the matter should pass. And further, if it were a matter that touched our life, we would not sleep the matter, but would be so much that more careful, we would leave no mean unsought for, that might stand us in stead. T. Experience teacheth it plainly. D. Now in this matter, whereof we speak, the question is of the greatest honour or dishonour that ever may hap unto us: here is the question of a marvelous great honour & glory, or else of an extreme shame & confusion, which we shall once receive, before the face of God, & before all men which ever have been, are, or shallbe, this question is of an eternal inheritance: to wit, of Paradise or else of hell, here is the question of our death, or of our life, not only temporal, but eternal, Wherefore I do greatly marvel of those that have so great trust in the fond faith of their Curates, Priests, monks, Bishops and Prelates, which commit them wholly into their hands, both body and soul. T. There are no small number of those that do so.   

¶ Of those men that make greater account of their purses, then of their consciences, and of the danger into the which they cast themselves, that commit such charge to false teachers, and they themselves to have no great regard to the same.  
D. I Would gladly understand of those men, if they would in the like sort trust them with their purses, & never ask them any account, nor never have regard, to their government. T. I do not believe it. For there is no prince nor other, that committeth the charge of his affairs to others, but that sometime he will know, in what sort they are passed & done. D. Then their purse is dearer unto them, then is their conscience or their soul, or else that inheritance of the kingdom of heaven: for they put their trust in such, & commit the whole charge of their consciences, & souls to those, that they would hardly trust for a couple of crowns: they esteem very slenderly, that price which our Lord jesus Christ hath paid for them, which is much more precious 
i Pet. ●  than all the gold & all the silver, that ever was in the world. T. They do trust, as I have already said, that these men shall aunwere for them. D. It is very true that they shall answer, but so much the worse for those for whom they shall answer: for so much as they shall not by means thereof, be acquitted of the det: for if it must needs be shall, that they answer, for default of that debt which they own to our great Lord, which shall not be paid unto him, according as their office doth require, it shallbe then for that the same is lost. The Lord speaking of this matter, saith by his Prophet Ezechiel, that he 
Ezech. 3. 33  will require at that hands of the shepherd, the blood of the sheep which shall perish through his default, it followeth them, that the sheep shallbe lost, whose blood the lord will require. When a murderer hath slain a man, & is taken upon the same, he must 
Example  satisfy the justice with his own life: yet notwithstanding the pain, which he shall endure shallbe small recompense, to him that is slain. Wherefore I do not think, that those men which make so small account of the life of their souls, would lose their bodily life, for such a price. T. I am of your opinion. D. If a man do us wrong, either in spoiling us of our worldly goods, or else in using any violence against our persons, and we endure the same patiently for the honour of God: this same shallbe no loss unto us before God, but a great profit, for God hath promised, great reward to those that shall suffer wrongfully. In this behalf none shall sustain the loss, but he only that 
Mar. v  hath done the wrong: for he hath hurt his soul and there is no hurt that can so hurt a man, as can that hurt. But in this matter whereof we do now speak, the soul is not only hurt, but slain: wherefore the loss can never be recovered. And therefore I would wish that such as are of that opinion, should well consider that which jesus Christ said, let them alone, for they are blind, and leaders of the blind: If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the dyke. He doth not say that the blind guide 
Mathe. 15.  shall alone fall into the dyke, but he also that shallbe led by him: wherefore that council is best to be followed which jesus Christ himself doth give in that behalf, in the same passage or text, he doth not say: Follow such leaders, and if they lead you wrong, they shall endure the punishment for you, ●nd you shall go free: but he giveth expressed commandment to flee from them, declaring plainly in what peril they put themselves, that follow such guides.   

¶ Of the care that every man ought to have, to know the way of salvation, and how they ought to beware of false Prophets and seductors of the people.  
T. THen we ought not to be so careless, but that we must inquire of that same way by the which we should pass, to the end that we might easily know, if that in stead of leading us in the right way, they should lead us wrong. D. It is very true: and also we ought not to be so rash and foolish, that we should suddenly take guides and conductors, without having any knowledge or testimony of them. For if we should but pass thorough a wood, or some other passage which were hard and difficile, we would not take a man at adventure to be our guide, of whom we could not assure us, lest that in stead of guiding us the right way, he should bring us into the laps of thieves to cut our throats, as it happeneth oftentimes to many. T. Yet not withstanding, this way, which we must pass, is the most dangerous of all: for there needeth no great straying, to lose us all. D. Therefore it is more needful to take good heed in this matter, then in any matter else. And for this cause are we so often warned in the holy Scriptures, not only by the Prophets and Apostles, but also by jesus Christ our Lord, to take heed of false Prophets, which 
Math. v●● Acts. x Roma. xvi. Phill. 3  come to us in sheeps clothing, and within are ravening Wolves. This admonition is not given unto us without cause. T. That is doubtless.   

¶ How that the admonitions which are written in the holy Scriptures, against the false Prophets, do make them to be without excuse, that suffer themselves to be seduced by them.  
D. FOr so much then that we are all advertised, and that the spirit of God hath given us so many marks and signs, whereby to know these false Prophets, we may no more pretend ignorance in this point for our defence, then in the other matters whereof we have already spoken. For the case is not like with a Christian, in matters of Christian religion, as it is in other arts and sciences, for that it sufficeth any man, because he can not learn all arts and sciences, to learn one or two, and to be excellent in some one science. But the substance of religion is of an other nature, it is an art, it is a science and occupation, which all men ought to understand, although all men may not be of like excellency in the knowledge of the same, nor yet be sufficient to execute the office of a Prophet, or of an Apostle, or of a pastor and Doctor in the church, yet at the least every man is bound to know so much, as he may understand how to frame and govern himself according to the will of God, to know how to embrace that which is good, and to refuse that which is evil, and to know how to keep himself from false Prophets and seducers: for he that can not do this, shall pay for his ignorance, as it hath been sufficiently proved by the reasons before alleged. Wherefore every man hath great occasion before all other things, diligently to commend himself to God in these affairs, with certain affiance to be heard, for he speaketh not this in vain: seek & you shall find, ask, and it shall be given unto you, knock at the door, and it shall be opened unto you, for he that seeketh, findeth, 
Mat. 7.  and he that asketh, receiveth, and he that knocketh at the door, entereth. For the Lord is near unto those that call upon him in verity. Beside this it is earnestly required of every 
Psal. 144  man to seek out diligently those that are good teathers, lest that in steed of the shepherd, we follow the Wolf, trimmed like a shepherd, which will devour us: for we may not through our negligence attempt God. And if we do this, having a sincere and true care for the glory of God, and for our own salvation, God will not leave us without the conduct of his holy spirit, and without provision of his goodness, according as it shall be needful for the salvation of every man, for that which jesus Christ hath spoken, shall remain always true: to wit, that he that will 
john. seven  do the will of God, shall understand of his doctrine, whether it be of God or no.   

¶ Of such as always excuse them by their great business, and can never find convenient time to hearken to the word of God, and to lay their hands to his work  
T. I Am of your opinion: but there are yet an other sort which seem to have more reason, & are better affected toward the word of God, then are those, of whom we did even now speak. But yet when I consider their works, I can not commend them. There are that will soon grant us all that whereof we have heretofore disputed: they will confess that we must inquire of the will of God in his word: They will well allow the doctrine of those that do truly preach the word of God, and follow the same, and employ themselves in the business of the Lord: but yet for all that they will not be over busy in it, but will find a thousand excuses. They will allege an infinite number of empeachmentes and empedimentes, which let them. Tere is among these men a number of mockers, which say, we must let God alone with the matter, and that he will well accomplish his work without us. D. I do well understand of what kind of men thou speakest: they are of the number of those which our Lord jesus Christ telleth us of in the passage of those 
Math. xx●i Luke. xiiii.  convited gests to the marriage, of the which the one excused himself by his farm, the other by his oxen newly bought, and the other by his new married wife: to be short, every one had such plenty of excuses, that not one of them came to the marriage, of those that were bidden, but that of necessity strangers were called. And as touching those men which say that God will well bring his works to pass without them, they say truth, for God needeth not any man to accomplish any of his works, For when he setteth us to work, it is not for need as though he could not do all that pleaseth him to do, without us. But when he calleth us into his works, he doth it to do us honour, in that we honour him, making us the ministers of his grace. And therefore we should be the more diligent to take the matter in hand, which if we do not, he will assuredly give us to understand that he hath works to do, the which he will not do without us: to wit, when he shall punish us for our slothfulness and ingratitude. T. Thou sayest very well: for we must needs be there in proper person, for that work shall not go in hand without us. D. These mockers which so play with God, shall feel this sooner than they would. We may well join also with these men, those of whom the Prophet Aggeus doth complain, who being delivered from 
Agg. ●,  the captivetie of Babylon, and having liberty and good means to build again the lords temple (the which in time before they had so much desired, or at the least made it to seem so) had no care at all once to lay their hands to it: but when the Prophet exhorted them to go in hand with it, according to their duty and office, they were never unfurnished of excuse, they alleged that the time was not yet come, for the which they looked. And to cover their hypocrisy the better, they would in like manner cloak their carelessness, even by the word of God. But the Prophet Aggeus doth plainly show where their grief doth hold them, saying: that to build their own houses, and to do their own business, they had always time convenient but to build the house of God, and to lay their hands to his labour: they could never find any meet time. By the which he doth plainly give them to understand, that if they had, had so good affection toward the work of the Lord, as they had toward their own worldly business, they would have found the time as apt to take the matter in hand, as they found it for other matters. T. It is to be feared that God will recompense them according to their desert: for if they can find no meet time wherein to serve him, he will find time convenient enough wherein to chastise them thoroughly for their hypocrisy and negligence. D. The Prophet also did not hide it, but declared plainly unto them what profit there would rise unto them by such a contempt of God, saying: you sow much and gather little, and if you scrape and gather money together, it is as though you should put it into a bottomless sack or purse.   

¶ Of the means whereby men's business may be advanced or hindered.  
T. BY this account, men do greatly deceive themselves, they think that all the time which is spent in the service of God, is lost, where as they should think all other time to be lost which is not employed in the same. For if they should bestow but one hour to hear the word preached, they would think that their business were marvelously hindered, but they will never grudge to lose. iij. or. iiij. x. or. xii either in a banquet, play, or such like vanity. And for my part, I am of opinion that if we did lay our hands to the labour of the Lord as we ought to do, one hour should more profit us, then doth now one day, one day more than a month, one month more than a year. But for as much as we do it not, when we think to go forward, we go backward: and find ourselves so encumbered with business upon business, and impeachment upon impeachment, and evil hap upon evil hap, in such sort as we can never come to any end. D. Our Lord jesus Christ doth plainly give us to understand the same, when he saith, after that he hath spoken of necessary things appertaining to this life, seek first the kingdom of God, and the righteousness thereof, 
Mat. vi  and all these things shall be given unto you. Then by the contrary it followeth, that in seeking first ourselves, and not effeming God, his kingdom and word, all that is contrary shall be given unto us. T. We are well worthy of it.   

¶ Of mockers which love not the Gospel, and yet make the court unto it, and make a show as though they had great devotion to it.  
D. FOr a full resolution, it seemeth to me that these kind of men of whom we do now speak, do not far otherwise differ from those men of whom we last spoke, them the two brethren of whom our Lord jesus Christ speaketh in a parable, differed the one from the other. The father commanded 
Math. xxi.  the one to go into the vinyeard, he answered plainly that he would not: notwithstanding this churlish answer, he did afterward acknowledge his fault, repented him, and went thither. The like commandment was given to the other, who answered frankly, he would do it, but in deed did it not, upon this same jesus Christ asked, who was the better of them both, and who did best observe the commandment of the father. T. I would think the first did it: for although he answered fiercely in words, he yet declared that his heart was better than his words did express. And contrarily, the other declared himself to be but an hypocrite, giving his father fair words, wherewith to abuse him. D. It f●roth in manner so with these men, they sh●we as though they did better understand, and had a greater zeal to the word of God, than those which resist it more openly: and yet oftentimes they bear less good will to it. There is no difference but in this, that these men are greater traitors to God, and greater mockers of his word, in so much as they do it more covertly, and more craftily. And therefore we see oftentimes come to pass in them, that which our Lord jesus Christ hath said, the first shall be the last, and the last the first. It is often seen 
Math. xx.  that those which in the beginning did most resist the word of God, in the end have been the best and most constant, after that God hath given them to know their faults and ignorances, and hath illuminated them. And on the contrary, many after that they have made a goodly show and countenance a long time to the Gospel, they revolt, and being given into a reprobate sense, do persecute it, being rejected of God as mockers, which have abused his knowledge. T. That is a punishment most to be feared.   

¶ What diligence men ought to use in following that vocation whereunto God hath appointed them, & of those Epicurians that are among the Christians, and of the diversity of them.  
D. THerefore, when the Lord doth call us, let us make haste as did the Israelites in coming out of Egypt: and let us not take so great leisure that we suffer our 
Exod. 12.  dough to be leavyned, let us rather eat our bread unleavined, then to suffer it to be long corrupted with the leavine 
Mathe. 16 Mar. viii Luke. xvii.  of the Egyptians, pharisees, Saducees, and Herode. Let us well remember that which jesus Christ spoke of Loathes wife, and that answer which he made to him that desired that he might tarry and bury his father: and to an 
Matth. ●i●●  other which in like sort desired that he might go and take his leave of his friends and cousins: suffer sayeth he, the dead to bury the dead, but for thy part show thou forth the kingdom of God. And again, What so ever he be 
Luk. ix  that hath once laid his hand to the plough, and doth look behind him, is not meet for the kingdom of God. T. I do greatly fear that there are many Epicurians among those hypocrites, of whom we have spoken. For although there be many in the world that are taken for hypocrites, because they love not God, nor show it so to the world: yet notwithstanding there are some Epicurians the one sort more covert than the other. There is one sort which esteem the whole volume of the sacred Scriptures to be but fables, and they turn it all into jesting and scoffing. There is an other sort which dare not so openly declare what they think: yet do they not much differ in opinion from those of whom we have spoken. There is beside, these an other sort which think that every man shall be saved in his religion, what so ever it be, if so be that they serve God in a good intent.   

¶ Of the testimonies by the which men declare themselves to be very Epicurians, and of the providence and justice of God against their false opinions.  
D. ALl those opinions are wonderful dangerous, and notwithstanding the same, the greatest number of 
Math. xxv Roma. ●iii ●. Cor. iiii  men at this day declare themselves by their works, to be of that judgement. For if they believed assuredly that there were a GOD, and an other life, and a judgement, to the which every man shall be called to render a●● account, and that there were a paradise and a h●ll: they would neither speak nor live in such sort as they do: but would stand in more fear of God, and bear greater reverence to his law and word. For if there be a God, (which no man can deny, unless he be more barbarous than all the barbarous people that ever were in the world, ye● then barbarousness itself, and more brute and furious than are all savage and brute beasts, and more devilish than the devil himself) it must needs be that such things are, for the one of them can not be without the other. God can not be God without his providence & justice, if he have his providence, seeing he hath discerned men from beasts, and hath made him a partaker of his godly nature, there is no doubt but that he hath other care of him then of beasts, 
Gene. two i. Pe. i Psalm. v john. 5 Roma. iii  and hath created him to an other end and to an other life and felicity, than he hath created them. If he have justice and goodness in him, it is very certain that the good pleaseth him, and the evil displeaseth him: and that he will punish the one, and reward the other. And for so much as we do not here plainly see his judgements in all things, that is unto us a most certain argument that there is an other life, in the which God will make known that which is hidden to us here: otherwise he should not be that which he is. T. It is very certain.   

¶ Of the light of God's word which is given to men, and of the nature of the same, and of the contempt that is among men.  
D. If it be so (as in deed every man that is of good judgement doth know) we ought not to think that he hath created a Sun whereby to lighten the eyes of man, and to conduct him and lead him to those things that are necessary for this life, and that he which is the very true & only sun, fountain of all light, hath not prepared light for the spiritual eyes of our soul, to lead them to those things which are necessary to eternal life. For if he have had so great care for our body, which is but earth and corruption, and for this present life, which is common with the life of other creatures, what shall we think that he hath of the soul, for whose sake he hath made the body, and of the immortality which he hath prepared for him? And it is very true that the true light of the soul, is that same word of God, by the which God doth instruct us. Which according to the testimony of David is that only light which doth lighten our eyes, and doth direct our steps, and doth also give wisdom to them that are ignorant, wherefore when 
psalm. cxix  we shall have to do with men, to persuade them to read the holy scriptures, and to hear the word of God, and to behold that light which shineth unto us in the same: it is no more in effect but as we should exhort men to open their eyes, to behold & receive the light of the sun. Should we not think it very strange if we should be enforced daily to solicit men to this, and should he not of right be thought to be very ingrate, that had rather to hold his eyes shut and to be blind still, then to behold this light of the sun, and to be lightened by the same? T. Yes truly. D. Yet notwithstanding we do daily much worse, when that we are provoked to understand and hearken to the word of God in sundry wise, and yet we will not understand of it at all. T. Thou sayest very true: but men do not see so far.   

¶ Of the authority of holy Scriptures, and in what sort God hath declared his will unto men, and how much it agreeth with his providence.  
D. ANd as concerning those that do not believe that the holy Scriptures and word of God, are the word of God, they are more void of reason than are those that should say there is no sun in the world: or if there be one, that he shineth not: or else that the light by the which we are lighted, is not of the sun, for we ought not to doubt but 
john. 1.  that God, who is the perfect and true light, hath manifested himself unto men, whom he hath created of purpose to have the fruition and enjoying of this divine light, and to walk in the same, And if it be so: I would gladly know of those which bear so small reverence to the holy Scriptures, if they know any other more certain mean, more meet and more excellent, by the which GOD hath declared himself unto men: and whether there be any other doctrine more worthy of his majesty, and doth contain and reveal unto men things more high, more godly, more secret, more unknown, and incomprehensible to all men's understanding, more true and more certain, and that doth touch and press man's heart more, and hath in them greater virtue and effect, be it to humble and beat them down, be it to relieve and comfort them, and is in all respects more meet, more profitable, and more wholesome for man, and better approved and confirmed by infinite testimonies of God: and that doth better deserve to be credited, than this, which hath been revealed by the angels of heaven, who daily do see the face of God: Also 
Mat. xviii Heb. i.  by the patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, and the most holy and most virtuous personages that ever the earth did bear, and that of so great an accord and perpetual consent, and all ready by so long a time even from the beginning of the world by continual succession. T. Thou allegest here great matters, & of great weight, to approve that which thou haste declared.  
D. Yea but I have not yet touched the principal: to wit, that the very Son of God, which is the true word, the Image, the light and brightness of the 
john. 1. Heb. i.  glory of God, hath been sent unto us from the bosom of the Father, to declare and confirm the same the more, dwelling among men in the true nature and shape of man. Also we have here no small testimony that this doctrine is of God, in that the devil did never make so long and cruel wars against any doctrine, what so ever it was, as he hath against this: and in that it hath been always so miraculously conserved, by the singular providence and power of God, against all the assaults of the devil: and that God hath punished with horrible plagues those that have stood up against the same. As the examples of all ages do right well witness. What shall we also say in that it hath been approved and ratified so mightily by so many signs and miracles (which could in no wise be done but by the only power of God) and also by the blood, death, and confession of so many Martyrs and confessors, which are in number infinite? T. If ever God did speak, or if ever he did show himself to men to deliver unto them any kind of doctrine, there is none other doctrine that we may assuredly believe to be of God, but only this doctrine, of the which thou haste now spoken. And therefore we are fully resolved, that GOD hath showed himself to men, and that he hath revealed unto them the doctrine of salvation. For if the kings and princes of the earth, yea the most barbarous, brute and cruel men of the earth, did well know that men could not live without laws, but were constrained to make laws, and to submit them selves, knowing the same to be very necessary for the conservation of mankind, and common policy: do we think that GOD the sovereign king and prince of every creature, who is himself the law to all, would leave men without a law, and his people without giving them an order how to live? He that hath given a law to all his other creatures, would he leave man, which is the chief of his works among all the visible creatures, and he whom he hath appointed prince and ruler over them, to be without law and direction. D. Who can think the contrary, if he be not more beastly than the very beasts? T. Wherefore for my part I do conclude, that this same, whereof we have spoken, is the true law and doctrine of God, and that there is none other, but that all others must be governed by this only law, and to reject all such as are not agreeing with this.   

¶ Of the most duly she perversity of the Epicurians, and how they do agree with the doctrine of Mahomet, who is of opinion that all men shall be saved in their own law.  
D. THou dost conclude very well, but the Epicurians, of whom we speak will not so easily agree to our sayings. For it is hard to satisfy such as do delight to mock God, and to make wars against him, and to persuade in matters of religion, such as desire to live without religigion. And in deed such swine are not worthy to be disputed with in such a matter, for so much as in the same they declare themselves to be more beastly than the brute beasts, and that they deny the foundation, which the devils themselves are compelled to confess, for they doubt not at all but that there is one God, and one Lord jesus Christ, whom they fear and stand in awe of. And even as those reasons which we have already alleged, are sufficient for all such as fear God, and are tractable and not contentions: even so are they sufficient to overthrow and tread down the error of them that do affirm that every man shall be saved in his own law, this proposition should be true, if 
james. two Met. 8 Mark, v  every man did embrace the law of God, this point is an article of the law of Mahomet, because that he doth imagine that God hath given diverse laws unto men, in diverse times, and in diverse places, according to the diversity of the people and nations, wherefore he doth conclude that every nation shall be saved in observing that law, and form of religion that he hath received of God. In the which, although he do most filthily err, yet notwithstanding he hath more reason than these men of whom we speak, which accept for a law and religion, all that ever any of them doth invent and imagine of his own brains.   

¶ Of man's traditions and of the rule which is set before us in the holy Scriptures, of all religion and doctrine.  
T. THey think also, because they have received these things of their fathers, that the same which they follow, is the law and religion which God hath ordained. D. Yea but there are of them that do well know the contrary, and are well assured that they embrace many things which are invented by men: wherefore if they will attribute so great worthiness to the traditions of men, as to that law and doctrine which God himself hath given, and revealed by his patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, and chief by jesus Christ his only son our Lord: we shall never have end of giving laws, nor shall we have any thing, whereunto we may assuredly trust. There shall be no difference between God and man, between the master and the servant, for every man shall be a law maker. And Satan may continually by this means spread abroad what doctrine so ever shall please him, and vouch it to be the doctrine of God. And then in vain hath God given his law and word, by his patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, and especially by his own son jesus Christ. In vain should he have forbidden to add any thing to it, or to diminish it, 
Exod. 20 Heb. 1. Gal iii. Act. seven. Deut 4 1● P●o●●. thirty.  or else to receive any other doctrine, no although it were brought in deed by the Angels of heaven. Wherefore if he will that we give such honour unto that word, which hath been once revealed by the patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, and by jesus Christ our only Lord, that the very doctrince of the angels shall be examined by this rule: do we then think that he will give more power to man over his word, then to angels. To what end do all the admonitions serve which are given us, for to beware 
Deut. xiii. Mat. 7. Acts. xx. Roma. xvi. i. john. iiii  of false Prophets, to shun those that are heretics, and to prove the spirits, whether they be of God or no, if it were all one to follow what law a man would? and that God would be contented to be served with our good intentes, man should never have needed that he should have given him any law, but only his own intention, commanding him to do only that which should come into his mind, and should seem good unto him. Which thing he hath earnestly forbidden, saying, honour 
Deut. 11.  not thou the Lord in that sort that seemeth good unto thyself, but in that sort only which I do command thee, without declining either to the right hand, or to the left.   

¶ How we ought to judge of that, where God forbiddeth us to do that which seemeth good in our own opinion: and of the assurance of our consciences by the word of God, without the which nothing can please God that man can do.  
T. IF he will that we do not that which we think to be good, what shall we then do? That which we think to be evil? D. He doth not at all forbidden us to do that which we think to be good, if it be good in deed, but for so much as of our own nature we are ignorance and blind, and that oftentimes we take darkness for light, and light for darkness, the good for evil, and the evil for good, the sweet for sour, and the sour for sweet: he will not that we govern ourselves according to our own fantasies, but hath given us an order, to the end that we might perfectly discern these things, and not to take the one for the other: which is not possible for us to do of our selves, without the mean that he hath given us. And for that cause he sayeth, thou shalt do only that which I do command thee. Wherefore it doth follow that what so ever 
Deut. ●8.  man doth, can not please God, unless he be assured that GOD hath commanded and ordained it, and can not do it without doing great wrong and violating the commandment of God. For first of all, none can please him without faith. And secondarily, faith can not be faith, without an undoubted assurance. And certain assurance can not be, but in the word of God. For how can I be assured that God alloweth this, and disalloweth that, but by the understanding of his will, which I can not have but by the declaration thereof, which he hath by his word? On 
Heb. 11  the other part, howbeit that that which I should do, should not be contrary to his will, but should be such as he hath expressedly commanded, yet could not my heart be thoroughly agreeable unto him, but should be worthy of great blame: if I did it without this assurance, because that I should not bear to the majesty of God, the honour and reverence which I do owe unto the same. For I ought to have him in that reverence, that if I doubt of the thing, I should first inquire and be assured of it, to the end that I should not put myself in danger to offend him: that, which we should more fear then death. For if I make so small account to put myself in such hazard, I do declare by such contempt, that I do not so fear God as I ought to do, nor do so reverence his holy name as my duty requireth. T. If these kind of men offend, which do good things in doubt: how grievous is then the offence of such as do those things which he hath plainly forbidden, and are apparently evil. D. I commit that to your judgement.   

¶ Of the error of those that think that the works which they do contrary to the will of God, are yet notwithstanding agreeable to him, because that they do them in a good intent.  
T. BUt what wilt thou say of those, that doing things contrary to the will of God, do assure themselves that they are agreeable to God, and ordained by him. For there are many of that opinion, in manner all such as are superstitious and idolaters are of that judgement, and almost all the heretics, which do all that ever they do in a good intent, if we shall judge of their conscience. For if they thought not that their religion did please God, many would refuse it, which seem yet to have some fear of God. D. I answer to that, that GOD is not subject to our fantasies, and that he will judge nothing to be good or evil, because it pleaseth, or displeaseth us, and because that we do so judge of it: but because the thing is so of his own nature, and that he himself hath so judged of it, and hath commanded or forbidden it, or else all superstition, and idolatry, heresy, and wickedness: should be lawful. For there is no wickedness nor abomination so great, which in the opinion of many, is not holden for a good and an honest thing, or at the least not evil. But how many heretics, people and nations are there, which have esteemed things to be good and honest, which are the most strange and abominable, that may be thought or imagined? How many have there been also that have had the most unjust laws of the whole world, which they have no less esteemed then be the best and most just that are? T. The matter is plain. D. Moreover, do we think that GOD will endure at our hands, that which we ourselves will not endure at the hands of our servants? Would we be contented to have a servant to serve us after his own will and fantasy? Will we not rather be served according to ours. T. If we should not be served as we do command, we should not be masters, but servants, and our servants should be the masters. D. And saying it is so, will God endure, that we shall serve him as pleaseth us, and not according to his will, and that we shall take unto ourselves such mastership over him? dost thou not manifestly see, how that all these most damnable opinions, abolish and deface the law and word of God, and consequently God himself, which can not be known for God without these things? For if these goodly reasons be true, all these absurdities, and blasphemies do follow, and a general abolishing of all true Religion, and a horrible confusion of all things. For if this foundation be once laid, all difference between good and evil, between virtue and vice is clean wiped away. There resteth then no more, but every man to do what liketh him, and so to give the head to all his affections, which is a more perilous matter, and much mo●e dangerous, than it is to let lose all the wild beasts of the world, to go at their own will among men, as doth a wolf lose among sheep, in executing his rage and cruelty against them.   

¶ To understand whether God have ordained sundry Reliligions for men, and of the diversity of men's laws, according to the diversity of nations and countries.  
T. THere is nothing more certain, then that which thou sayest, but could not God have given to men sundry orders of life, according to the condition of every people & nation? For we see by experience that there are laws and customs in one country, which are very meet for it, and yet for an other country, are neither meet nor agreeable. For what diversity of laws, customs and manner of life do we see among men, and chief in the administration of justice, and in their policy? which seem in deed, to be very contrary the one to the other, & yet notwithstanding are both just and righteous in their kind, and very necessary to those unto whom they be given, whereof it followeth, that a law being good and just in one country, and not in an other, that the fault proceedeth not of the law, but of the diversity that is among men, and of the circumstances of times, of places, and of persons. And without alleging men's laws, which do greatly differ, the one from the other: Let us come only to the law of God, and let us see if we find not the like in them in some respects. How many commandments did God give unto the jews, unto which he would not have the other people to be subject, which were before the coming of Christ: nor yet us which have received the word of God by their ministry? For how many things are there abolished by the new Testament, which were very straightly commanded and observed in the old Testament, and could not be omitted, without greatly offending God, and without great punishment, of those unto whom they were commanded?   

¶ Of the causes of the diversity of the positive laws, and of the difference, that is between those laws, which are given as touching corporal things, and those which do appertain to spiritual things.  
D. THere are many reasons, to answer this question & difficulty. For the first, it is no marvel if there be great diversity, yea and often times manifest contrariety, and imperfection in man's law. For the men which make them, are changeable and inconstant. And for so much as oftentimes they may fail, either through ignorance, or else by being ruled by their affections, it is often times seen that their latter laws do correct their first. T. But often times it is seen contrary, and that the latter are worse than the first, and that they do abolish others, which are better than they are. D. So much the worse is it, but there may no such thing be found in god. And beside that we may not judge of spiritual and heavenly things, as we do of corporal and earthly things. For we daily see by experience, that there are many laws in the policy, which if they were accepted generally in all countries, were as unmeet & would as greatly hurt in some, as they do profit in others. And for this cause, God would not make subject the other nations, nor yet the Christians unto all those laws, which he did give to the people of Israel, but hath left it to all men's choice, conditionally that this liberty be always measured by the compass of his will, and eternal and unchangeable law, whereof we will here after speak. For these laws have regard to our body and goods, and to the conservation of the society of man, in the which it can not be, but that there most be great diversity, because they are made of diverse qualities, and are subject to diverse changes, wherefore it is required that the law giver have respect to the ability, commodity or incommodity, of those people with whom he hath to do, & to the times and places wherein he doth establish them. But it is far otherwise with the soul, & with those things that properly appertain unto the same. For it is not compounded of such a substance, as is the body. And therefore is not subject to such changes and diversities, & the things that belong unto her, are not for a time, but are eternal. And therefore, it must needs be, that those laws which are given unto the soul, must have a further regard, in that they must needs be of a longer continuance.   

¶ Of the agreement that is between the positive laws, & the ceremonial laws, and of the true usage of them.  
T. BUt God hath not only kept this order, in his civil laws, but also in those that he hath given for matters of Religion, which touch the soul. And beside that, those same Civil laws, which he gave, were they not given to help toward the observation, of those which properly had regard to the soul. D. I deny not that which thou sayest, but thou oughtest to consider, that this change of laws & ordinances, the which God hath used, even in the very matter of Religion, doth not otherwise appertain, but to the ceremonies, which are but outward things, and not at all, of the proper substance of the unchangeable will of God. And therefore the ceremonial laws have a great agreement, with the positive laws: for as the civil laws are given for conservation of the civil policy, and to help also to lead men to yield that obedience unto God, which they own unto him: even in like sort the ceremonial laws do serve to entertain the Ecclesiastic policy, & to frame men to the true service of God. But for that the means by the which this may be done, may be diverse, and that some of them may be meet for some time, in certain places and for certain people, which should not be meet for others: God hath therefore left it at liberty, provided that the rule which I touched before, be therein always observed. For these things are in this respect as things indifferent, and the change that in them happeneth, doth not proceed of God, ne yet of any inconstancy that is in his will, but of our weakness and inconstancy, saving only that God of his goodness, doth willingly condescend to our rudeness and capacity. But there is an other reason in his will which he hath declared to be eternal, and in the things that he hath once declared to be for ever good or evil, and that depend of the same, and are not only as entries as are the ceremonies, for in such matters he never changed any thing, nor never made law, by the which he allowed Idolatry, blasphemy, adultery, murder, & other like wickedness, which he hath once forbidden by his law, which is nothing else, but a testimony of his eternal will, and of the natural law, which is naturally imprinted in the hearts of men, by the which he hath put in them an impression of his eternal will, which can never be clean plucked out. But for so much as it was marvelously darkened by sin, and that it did remain as overwhelmed and buried, and in manner in us clean wiped out, it hath pleased God more plainly, to declare the same unto us, & to awake us, to the end we should give the greater regard unto it, and hath given it unto us, as well by writing as by word of mouth, and doth put us oftentimes in mind thereof by the ministery of his word.   

¶ What liberty God hath given, in the usage of ceremonies, and of the mean that must be kept in the same.  
T. IT shall then according to thy opinion, be lawful for men, to dispense with ceremonies, and with civil laws and to change them at their pleasures. D. My purpose tendeth not to such an end. For when I do declare for what cause God hath left in this, greater liberty unto men then in the rest, whereof we have spoken, I will not therefore say, although it be lawful for God to change all those things at his pleasure, according as he doth know it, to be meet for the health of man, that man should challenge to himself such a licence: but contrarily when they have received any ordinance of God, be it ceremonies or such like, they ought not at all to change any thing thereof, until that God himself, which only hath liberty so to do, do it: as we see it hath come to pass by the ceremonies, which were observed in the Church of Israel, which were abolished by the coming of our Lord jesus Christ, for that they were not ordained, to serve but only until that time. Besides this, in that, in the which God hath given no certain, and expressed ordinance, but hath left those things in our liberty, as indifferent, we may use that liberty, which he hath left unto us, governing the same always according to the rule of faith and of charity, If there be then any question, as touching the ceremonies ordained in the law of Moses, we must then have regard unto that part of them, which was abolished by the coming of jesus Christ, which may not now be observed, without renouncing of jesus Christ: as though men doubted whether he had accomplished or no that which was figured by them. If there be any question of Sacraments, ordained by our Lord jesus Christ, and of the ceremonies, and of the discipline, which he himself hath ordained: we must then take good heed that we change no jot thereof, or to add, or diminish in any thing, that toucheth the substance of such things. If there be question of man's traditions, and of the ancient Canons & Decrees, it is requisite to consider, wherein and how they do agree, with the word of God, & also how they may serve, to the edification of the Church, or how they may hinder the same. For there are many (I say even of those, which are not contrary to the word of God) which were good for a time, which not only would not serve at this present, but would do great hurt, because the time doth not now require that, which it then did when they were decreed. And therefore, if that of the very Apostles, touching the abstinence from blood and from strangled flesh, which was decreed in the Counsel at jerusalem, was abolished in time convenient, when the usage thereof was no more necessary in the Church: how much more reason have we, to do the like of others, that are of such quality, when that the time and the edification of the Church should require it? T. I agree well to all this: But there is beside these an other sort of people, of whom we have not yet spoken, which seem to have more reason than the others of whom we have now made mention: but it may be, that we have spoken enough for one time, it shall be best that we leave them until an other tyme. For I do not doubt, but we shall have occasion to discourse sufficiently of them. D. Who are they I beseech thee? T. They be those that wait for a Council. D. And because that we have happened upon this matter of the Council, I am well content that we put it over to an other time: for it doth well merit that men look narrowly unto it, for so much as many men depend upon them.     


¶ The contents of the second Dialogue named the waiting for the Council, or the Neutral Gospelers, to wit, such as will deal between the true & false Religion & doctrine.  
Because, that the looking for a general Council, to appease the troubles that are in Christendom in causes of Religion, doth feed and entertain many poor ignorant men in vain hope, and doth let them from the diligent searching out of those things, that belong to their salvation, I have determined fully to entreat of the matter in Dialogues following, in which I will plainly declare, what hope the Christians may have of a Council, and what they may think will come of it, and how hard it willbe to assemble it, and what issue, or what good, or evil we ought to look for of it, and what profit the lawful Councils may bring to christianity, and which is the true Council, upon the which the true Christians ought to repose and to instruct their consciences. And in handling of these matters, I will touch chief in this Dialogue, what hope we may have in such affairs, as well of their part, that are called Prelates of the Church, as of the part of the Christian princes, as they have given us well and sufficiently to know by examples, and by experience that we have had already of the Council of Trent. And after that there is some thing said of the Interim, and of such solicitors & workers as will join jesus Christ, & antichrist together, & in stead of Christians, make Samaritans, & of the opinion of such as say, that the Council can not err, which is also continued in the other Dialogues following, in the which I do a little paint & set forth, the manner of proceeding, which the Papists observe in their Counsels, and I do compare it with that, which God did use in his Council that he held with his people, first in the mount of Synay, and after that in the hill of Zion. I do show also what preparation there ought to be for the doctrine of such Counsels, and how that those two Counsels, contain all the doctrine of the old and new Testament, & how they do so agree together, that they both tend to one, upon whom only it behoveth us all to stay. Whereupon also I make mention of the agreement and difference that may be between the old and new Testament, between Moses and jesus Christ, between the law & the Gospel, and the law which is called the law of grace, and the law of rigour, & of the abolishing & also of the usage of the law of Moses, and of the vengeance of God, which is prepared against those that will not willingly receive the Decrees, & Canons, of this great and godly Council, and shall abuse his word, and of the great grace: which he hath offered to men, in his son jesus Christ our Lord, which things shall be entreated of every one in his place. And as touching this present Dialogue, I have entitled it, the waiting for the Council, or the newtrals, in respect of the principal matters that therein are handled or entreated of.   

❧ The second Dialogue, entitled the waiting for the Council, or the Newtralles.  

Of the reasons which cause many to desire & wait for a Council: and of the trouble that the difference which is in Christendom in matters of Religion, doth bring to simple and ignorant consciences.  

Daniel.  
Timothe.   
D. THou dost well remember where we left, as touching those that wait for a Council. T. Yea in deed. D. Will these men tarry to believe in God, to serve him, and to inquire of his will, until the time that the Council hath been holden, and that it hath determined what order of life we should follow? T. It seemeth that these men take their foundation, of that which thou hast said, that if they should serve God truly, it were first requisite to be well instructed and assured of his will. D. Wherefore do they not then forthwith and withal diligence inquire thereof? why do they then tarry for a Council? T. Because they say, that in so great diversity of opinions, as at this present day, is in Christendom, in matters of Religion, they know not which to follow in surety. For they see that some teach after one sort, & the others after an other: & that there is often times as great contrariety of opinions, as between white and black, and between fire and water. That which one alloweth, an other disalloweth: that which one holdeth for Christian doctrine, and for true service of God, an other condemneth it as heresy, or else as superstition, hypocrisy, Idolatry, and Apostasy. And besides this, there are of both sides personages of great appearance, great understanding and great authority, according to the judgement of the world: notwithstanding the multitude is far greater of the one side, then of the other: men hear their discourses, men read their writings & books, there are goodly reasons of both parts, which every of them endeavoureth to prove and confirm by the holy Scriptures, and by all means possible. In this cause, what shall a poor man do, which feareth to offend God, and hath a good desire to serve him, according to his will, but he may not well attain to the knowledge thereof, because that which the one saith is the will of God, the other saith it is not the will of God.   

¶ How that the difference that is in Christendom, in matters of Religion, should not stay men from the diligent inquiry of the will of GOD, but should rather provoke them thereunto.  
T. I Confess that these differences, which are in Christendom, engender great trouble in the poor consciences of many: but that ought not at all to let them to inquire by all means possible, of the will of God, and to employ themselves with all speed possible to serve him: but they should the more earnestly be moved, and provoked to do it, to rid themselves, with as much speed, as they might out of such troubles. For why, lest they tarry in it, if they have any fear of God, in what trouble shall they live: and what quietness may they ever have in their consciences. I for my part should think that I were in hell, if I should long live in such estate, without having some thing certain, and resolved in my mind, whereunto I might assuredly stay. T. For this they require a Council: for they think there will be there men of greater judgement than they are, by whose means the matter shall be so debated and examined, that there shall be a general, and a sure determination, through the which every man may be out of scruple and doubt, and may know whereunto to trust. D. It seemeth unto me, that their hope is very slender, if they have no better hope than this. I may not deny but their desire is good, we all ought to desire the same, if there were any hope to see it come to pass, & that with speed: for the sooner it were, that better, because it is much more dangerous to delay or defer the medicyning of the soul: them of the body, for if the medicine of the body come not in time to him that is sick, that sick person is not in danger, but only of his bodily life: but if the medicine of the soul be to long deferred, there is danger of eternal death: wherefore, I do greatly fear, that many do perish, in tarrying for those medicines. T. There is much to be feared, and also to be doubted in this matter.   

¶ What profit the Church of God may receive of Councils, and of their issue.  
D. THe Synods & lawful Counsels, is one of the best remedies that men may have, to take away controversies in religion, it is the remedi whereunto in like cases that Apostles & their true successors, & all that ancient church, have oftentimes had their recourse: for albeit that the Counsels, have no authority nor power to give unto the church any new doctrine nor yet to forge any new articles of faith, but only to hold & maintain the doctrine, which is revealed by the holy Scriptures, & yet notwithstanding they serve to great purpose, in so much that they be as public witnesses unto it, to succour the infirmity of the simple & weak, & also such as shall come after us, by the confession which is made of the same by them, & by the public testification that there is declared, by the perpetual consent of the Church, of the doctrine of the Prophets & Apostles. But although the Counsels be ordained to this end, & that the ancients have had more rule of themselves & better means, much more meet for such a purpose, than we have at this present: yet notwithstanding they could never obtain that in their Counsels, which they desired. And such untowardness was there, that they did always not only not appease the differences, & abolish schisms, & heresies which troubled the Church, but oftentimes even there right many new did spring, & have been afterward from time to time increased: if it were needful to prove it by examples, it were easy to do, but we will not now enter into such matter. I will content me for this time, to allege only touching this matter, that testimony the Gregory Nazianzen (which was Master to S. Hierom) did give, writing to Procopius of the Counsels of his time, which were nothing so corrupted as are those of our time: if I must needs, saith he, write the truth, I have determined to refuse all the Counsels of Bishops. For I have found the issue of no one Synod good, or rather that they have more increased the evil, then quenched it. Here is the judgement of Nazianzene, touching this matter. Which seemeth to me something hard, for it can not be denied that some of the ancient Counsels, have greatly profited unto Christianity, notwithstanding that the perversity of the wicked, hath alway hindered that the fruit and issue hath not been such as was to be desired, yet notwithstanding, Nazianzene hath not given judgement of the Counsels without some just cause, or like a man that did not know what the matter meant, but like a man of great understanding, and one well exercised in those matters. T. At the least he lived in such a time, and bore such office as of reason he ought to have had great experience.   

¶ Of the hope that men may have of the Council, in these days, and of those that there shall assemble, and of the issue thereof.  
D. NOw if Counsels had such issue in those days, that Nazianzene had just occasion to make such complaint: what hope may we have in these days, of such like remedy? For, first of all, what hope may we have to assemble a Council only? yea and if it might so come to pass, that one might be assembled, what goodness might we hope for of it? For who shall assemble it? who be they that shallbe there assembled? Who shall there preside? Who shall make the determinations and conclusions of it? and who shall execute them? If a man would reform or suppress a stews, to whom wouldst thou give such a charge? wouldst thou give it to the master of the stews? and wouldst thou, that he should have the chief authority in that reformation, and that his bawds and ruffiens, whoremasters and whores should give their voice and sentence, and that all should be done, according to their will and mind? Might not men have great hope, to have some good resolution and reformation in such a case, of such a Council? T. It should be a great mockery, even like as to make the wolf to be keeper of the sheep. D. Doubtless no more is there any likelihood, considering the state of things at this day in Christendom, to have any Council much more honourable. For if the Pope and his ministers, have their authority, which they have had in time past, even sith they have usurped that tyranny, which they now exercise over the Church, & that they pretend to have there, thou mayest easily understand what success men may look for. For it is a thing most certain, that such men will never agree to have a council holden, unless they know it to be for their profit, and that they may there rule at their pleasure, even as they now pretend to do in their Council of Trent. For if they did not think to reign & rule there at their pleasure, it would have been a hard matter ever to agree then thereupon, or to have drawn them thither. And if they may obtain this, it shall not be a Council, but a conjuration & conspiracy against God, as was the council of Annas and Cayphas, of the Scribes and pharisees, and of the priests of the law, and of the council of jerusalem against our Lord jesus Christ. This shall be a Council to establish more strongly the seat of Antichrist, and his tyranny against the Church, and wholly to abolish the course of the Gospel, and to fill the whole earth with the blood of the innocentes & Martyrs, which shall sustain the truth, and rather die, then to renounce jesus Christ. T. Certainly for my part I think it to be the only mark whereat they shoot. For what may we look for at the hands of him, & of all his race, which hath been a murderer and homicide from the beginning of the world, we need not to doubt whether the Antichrist the son of perdition and all his generation which make wars against the truth, be the very natural and lawful children of this great murderer & father of lies. Wherefore it must needs come to pass: that they work the works of their father, and that they put in practise those arts and sciences: which they have learned in his school.   

¶ Of the means that the enemies of the truth do use for the maintenance of their kingdom, and their false religion, and of the hope which they have given by their Council of Trent for the reformation of the Christian church.  
D. AT the least they do declare right well by their threatenings how well they are inclined to follow that occupation. For in deed what could they do without that? in so much as the sword of the word of GOD is not to maintain their cause and devilish estate, they can not find one more meet than is the material sword, and the fire and faggots. There is the Bible which they have for their defence, with the which the tyrants and executioners furnyshe them. T. Their library is even meet for their study. D. By these means the Christianity shall be in worse estate than now it is, and there shall be less hope of reformation of it, than before was. And without passing any further, and without going from their council of Trent, they have already given us a fair testimony of the good will that they bear to a true Christian reformation: by those goodly determinations which have been concluded not long since, in their sessions of that worthy conjuration and conspiracy of Trent. T. The matter is plain, and therefore dost thou no wrong to such a council rather to call it a conspiracy to resist the truth, than a council to maintain it.   

¶ Of the danger into the which they put themselves that attend only upon the council, without seeking any other reformation, both in themselves and in the church.  
D. ON the contrary, if they should know that their tyranny might have no place, than would they find all the means possible to invent how to let it, that there should be no council at all holden: or if there must needs be one, to hinder in all matters all the good that might otherwise proceed. And in this sort, what shall become of them this mean while that depend only upon the council without having any other care of religion, or of the reformation of the same? And if they had none other care at all, they should die in their ignorance, and doubt where in they are: and so should go to hold a council in hell, where I doubt not but that they should find Popes enough to proceed there, & Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and Monks, to hold there a goodly general council, better furnished of such personages, than any that a man might now find in Christendom, if they hold it in such sort as they have already begun, & that such personages do there rule, if these men which attend for a council be already in error: they shall there be more confirmed therein, and shallbe in worse state than before. If they have received any light of the word of God, it is greatly to be feared lest it should be clearly put out in them, being blinded with the appearance of the authority which men give to councils.   

¶ Of the hope that men may have of those Christian princes which do reign at this present for to reform the church by the mean of a general council: and of the negligence and want that is in that behalf, even in those churches which glory of the Gospel.  
T. YEt is there hope to remedy these things by the help of the Christian princes. D. I see no great hope in that behalf. For who be the Christian princes that may give order in this? if they be seduced by the Pope and his, that Antichrist will be served of them for to make him continually more strong: if they be well instructed in the doctrine of the Lord, and that they have a desire to reform the church according to the rule of his word, that Antichrist forthwith endeavoureth to stir up all those princes and nations that are abused by him to hinder so godly an enterprise. And when one prince will, an other will not. Wherefore, it will be a very long time before men may cause all the princes and other estates of the world, by whose means such assemblies ought to be made: to agree in one opinion, and to come together and to consent in one so holy a work. For we shall find in all these estates those same difficulties, lets and excuses, whereof we have already spoken. For there is so great contempt of God and of his word, and so great negligence and carelessness in all estates, concerning those things that touch the honour of God, & the health of souls, and so great a burden of their own glory, and private profit, and their hearts so rooted in the earth, that they forget heaven, and can find at no time any leisure to labour in the work of the lords house. T. That is a very great evil. D. We may easily judge what hope we shall have of a general reformation, by means of a general council, by the experience of those things which we daily see, in those places where God hath already given of his grace to princes & Magistrates: to lay their hands to his works: to begin some manner of reformation in his church. Let us begin with the best reformed church that may be found in christendom, and let us compare the form and order of it with that that was in the ancient church: I mean not of the most perfect that ever was, as of that of the Apostles, but of that church that was long after the Apostles time, what difference shall we find? T. I think we shall find very great difference. D. So great as we shall be ashamed to call a reformation, the reformation that we shall therein find, seeing the deformity that there yet doth rest: whereof every man complaineth, and yet no man can remedy it.   

¶ Of the negligence and want that is in the ministers of the church, and generally in all other estates, whereby the reformation of the church is hindered.  
T. WHat is the cause thereof? D. Every man in his calling, for oftentimes it is seen that the Ministers are negligent in their ministry, and do not call upon the magistrates and people, exhorting them to execute their offices uprightly and sincerely, as they ought to do: for often times it is seen that they themselves do as much or more fear a reformation, than others do. And if there be default and negligence in those men, which should be a light unto others, let us then well weigh what may be found in the magistrates and people. For there are very few which on their part fear not a reformation, and desire not at all to frame it according to the rule of the word of God, to direct their lives and manners according to the same: but rather to make the word of God subject to them, and to have a reformation according to their own will & pleasure. And from whence cometh all this: but only from an evil conscience and of a disordinate desire that is in men, of a carnal liberty, and of a manifest rebellion against God? For they will not have God to reign over them, but they will live and reign at their pleasure. They can not endure to have their naughty affections, and dissolute manners to be bridled, and the abuse of their estates corrected, and their tyranny suppressed by the word of God. They bestir them on every side by all means possible, and employ all their forces to cast of: the yoke of the Lord, to the end they will not be subject to him: and consider not in the mean time that in refusing to yield unto God that obedience which they own unto him: they rest subjects to the devil, and become daily more and more his slaves: for they had rather to reign by the devil, and the devil to reign in them, them to live and reign by God, and God to reign in them and over them. Wherefore we may well say of them altogether, that which S. Paul did of the ministers of his time, at which time the word of God did give fruit in other sort then now it doth. Every one sayeth 
Phill. 1  he is about his own business and careth but for himself, and not for jesus Christ. It cometh sometime to pass that there are good ministers, and that on their part do acquit some piece of their duty in this behalf: but those which are joined in the same ministery with them, & should help them, and draw with them in the same yoke that they draw: are oft times those that hinder them more than any others. T. When this happeneth the hindrance is not small, for one only horse that draweth backward, doth hinder more than six horses which draw forward are able to overcome.   

¶ Of the empeachmentes that men give one to an other in the reformation of the church: and of the punishment of God upon them for the same cause.  
D. IF it so come to pass that the Ministers agree well, and do well acquit them of their duty, peradventure they shall not find the Magistrates and officers of that same sort, which will put to their hands, to help them in their ministry, as their office requireth: but will rather band against them, to overthrow all good discipline, and will rather maintain vicious men, then virtuous. Or else if it come so to pass that the Magistrates and officers be well affected toward the reformation of the Church, they may meet with ministers which shall not greatly hasten them forward, but will rather dissuade them from it: where they ought to persuade them to it, and will rather give them liberty to run a stray, then to put them in the right path. Or if it so come to pass that the Ministers and Magistrates with the officers be all of one mind, as concerning holy things, and do help one an other in the works of the Lord (which thing is very seldom seen) yet shall they have much to do to range the people under any good discipline. For there are few which are tractable, and will willingly submit themselves unto it, and if there be some of so good a sort, there shall be some Minister or some Magistrate that shall seek to alter him and be offended with him. Wherefore seeing that there are so few Ministers, Magistrates and people, that are willing to submit themselves to the true reformation of God, and would yield unto him that obedience which of right they own him, but they would every of them rather have such a reformation as should please their fantasy, which should not displease them at all, but entertain them in their pleasures: And therefore it is no marvel if all frame not well, & that men be so evil matched oftentimes in all governments, and that one be a hindrance to the other. And it is not greatly to be marveled at, if the ministers do seldom find good Magistrates and good people, yielding to the ministery of the word of God such obedience and duty as they ought to do. Moreover, it is not to be marveled at if the Magistrates find very seldom true and faithful Ministers of jesus Christ, diligent in their ministery towards the church of God, who without flattery will frankly show both them and the people their faults which are subject to them as they ought to do, and do love and reverence them as their fathers. And do we marvel if the people have more often Pastors and Magistrates tyrants, which do devour them and destroy them: then good Ministers and Magistrates which would be unto them in stead of fathers, and desire more the honour of God, and the salvation of his people, them their own glory and profit? For it must needs come to pass that the offering must be like to the Saint (as saith the proverb) and that God do punish men in such sort, the one by the other, to the end that they may learn to know in themselves by the injury which others do to them, and by that which they command of them, what injury they do to God, and how he may be pleased by them. If then it be an hard matter to set good order in the church, when either the Ministers, Magistrates or people be other, then of right they ought to be, what discipline may we then hope for when they shall be all in league together to resist against God, and to make wars against his word, and to destroy all good discipline? T. That doth yet more often happen then the contrary.   

¶ Of the difficulty that is in the world at this day, to assemble meet men for a lawful council, and of the example of the ancient Christians concerning their faith towards the doctrine of the Apostles.  
D. THen if it be so difficult, as nothing is more to set good order in a small country or little town, by means of these empeachmentes, yea even in those places where there is most light of God, and most hope of reformation, what will it then be when it shall come in question for all Christendom, and for all the world? how hard a matter will it be to assemble so many pieces so evil gathered together, and the one so contrary to the other? If those which received the Gospel in the time of the Apostles, seeing the diversities that then were in the religion, and the resistance that was made against the doctrine of the Apostles, would have been contented to abstain from receiving of it: until such time as a general council had been called, where had they then been become?  
When should they have believed the Gospel? For who should have assembled & ordained it? Should the Roman Emperors have done it: which were enemies and persecutors of the Christian religion, which then were the most mighty princes upon the earth? Or else Pilate and Herode, Annas and Cayphas or else the Scribes and pharisees, the Doctors and the Priests of the jew, or else the Philosophers and the Prophets of the Pagans, which were all adversaries to the Gospel? what conclusion might men have looked for at the hands of such men? How should the Apostles and their adherentes have been received among those men? and of what weight or value should their voice have been? How long should men have waited before that all these men would have agreed together, upon any good determination for the doctrine of true religion? That would not have been done before the day of judgement.   

¶ Of the hindrance which the Christians do cause in the reformation of the church, more than all others, and of the end whereunto the supposts of the popish church tend under the title and name of a Council.  
T. THe world is not in these days, as than it was. For we have now nothing a do, neither with the jews, nor Pagans, nor yet with the turks. And seeing that we have to do but Christians with Christians, the hope is the greater. D. I know not. But at the least I desire it for my part, but I fear lest the pure truth of God, will worse be endured of those, which glory of the name of a Christian, then of the jews and turks. For all those that bear the name of Christians, are not for all that Christians, for for so much as it is an other matter, to be a Christian in name only, and to be one in deed, and name together. This fareth much like the testimonies which we have already brought forth of ancient customs, touching the ancient Samaritans, of whom it is written that they feared the 
two. Reg. xvii  Lord, and yet notwithstanding, they served continually their Idols: and afterward in this same passage he saith, that they did not fear the Lord. T. I was in mind to desire thee to agree these two passages, when thou didst allege them, but that I was loath to break of your tale. D. It is an easy matter to agree them, for the one expoundeth and declareth the other. It is said that they feared God, for so much as they made a certain profession of the law: but for so much as they did it not in deed, but mingled their ancient superstitions and Idolatries with it, it is said that they feared not the Lord, as it is declared following. But let us come to the Samaritans of our time, for truly we do not see at all, more cruel persecutors of the Gospel, then are those which are Popish Christians. But to what end thinkest thou, that the Council of Trent is continued, and that they have newly confirmed, and approved all those determinations, and resolutions that have passed? In the same? Thou mayest well assure thyself that those worthy fathers, which travail there, tend to none other end, but to confirm and establish again, all their ancient errors, to the end they may have a more better colour to defend and maintain them here after, and to persecute the children of God, and to bathe all Christendom, in the blood of poor Innocentes, and true servants of God do they not apparently show, that they will not admit any reformation, which is conformable in any one point to God's truth, and that they have no care, neither of peace ne yet of the union of Christendom, but only how to maintain their most filthy & damnable estate, and to oppress by their tyranny all true Christianity, and utterly to destroy it? For, if they were desirous to hear & understand the truth, & to bring into the rightway, those which they hold for heretics, & Schismatics, why do they not there admit them, and frankly & safely receive them, & to hear their reasons, & to show them by the word of God (if their cause have good foundation in the same) their errors, wherein they say that they are? But they pass not for that: for they will not hear their judges, nor endure that the word of God shall judge them: knowing well that by it they are already condemned, but will be judges over it, and condemn it as their adversary. Truly their doings must needs be good, their conclusions good, & their condemnations' lawful: In so much as they are both judges, parties, & witnesses, even as their predecessors were against jesus Christ: & they have their hangemen, & executioners ready at hand, to execute their sentences. What difference is there, between such a Council, & a conspiracy of thieves, which swear together to take in hand, some enterprise to cut men's throats? What authority ought such a Council to be of? What prophets are there, & what doctors, what Christian princes, how may then all christendom lawfully receive for resolution & determination of the christian doctrine, & for a true reformation of the church, the conclusion that shall be had in such a conspiracy of the enemies of God, & of all Christianity? There is no man of sound judgement, that will agree to this: for it is in a manner such a conspiracy, as was that which Solomon describeth of those which said: Let us lay ambushes to shed blood, and let us lie in wait for that innocent without cause. It is a conspiracy like unto that of the false Priests, & false Prophets, 
Prou. i jere. xviii.  enemies of jeremy, which said: let us go, let us wound and smite with the tongue, for the Sacrificers shall never want wisdom. It is much like to the which the Papists say: The Counsels can not err. And if it be lawful to constrain men by force, that fear God, & which great strokes of sword, by wars, murders, & shedding of blood, & with great store of fagotes, & mighty fires, as these worthy fathers do: I leave to thy judgement, what edification, what peace & union such a Council may bring to the church of jesus Christ, & to all christendom.   

¶ What Council the true Christians ought to follow, in waiting for the general Council.  
T. WHat shall we then do, if this hope be taken from us? D. Though we have no occasion at all to conceive any good hope of the Council of Trent, yet will I not therefore say that all hope is taken from us forever: but I will only say that we living in this hope should be occasioned to stay without any further enquiring of the will of God, & without the assuring of our consciences in his word. And when such matter hath been in question, I have always been thus resolved in myself: Either there shallbe a Council held, or else there shallbe none held. Ff there non held I am then deceived in my waiting for it: if there shallbe one held, I know not whether I shall live unto that time or no, or at the lest to see the end, & conclusion thereof. And in the mean time if I die, not being well resolved in my conscience of religion: I shall die in great disquetnes of conscience, and in great peril of my salvation, as thou mayest well understand by those matters, which have already been debated sufficiently, and at large, between us. Wherefore I had rather in the mean time, to assure myself, following the admonition of our Lord jesus Christ, which saith: Be upon your guard, watch and pray, and 
Mat. 24. 25. Luke. 12.  do like that good servant that is always ready, & looketh for his master, not knowing what hour he shall come. We are well assured that he shall come, but we neither know the day, ne yet the hour. Wherefore let us live alway in such estate, as becometh Christians to be, when he shall come, and then shall we never be suddenly taken.   

¶ Of those which would agree the doctrine of jesus Christ, and that of Antichrist together, and of the form of doctrine, compounded to such an end, called Interum, and of the vanity of the authors of the same.  
T. IN deed it is the most sure, but in the mean time it is a hard matter, to find any kind of Religion, wherein a man may so well continue in waiting for the general Council, as that which men call at this day the Interim D. Thou hast now put us into a very large field. I would gladly that these foregers of Interim, should declare unto me the very cause why, they do call this new form of Religion, which they have forged, by the name of Interim T. Thou dost well understand the Interim, signifieth in the Latin tongue, in the mean time, or whilst. D. I do know that very well: yet notwithstanding I would gladly know what they mean by this word, in the mean time, or whilst. T. They mean as I think, y● that manner of life hath been set forth only to that end, that men should live according to the same, in matter of Religion: whilst they aways for a Council, in the which more ample and more certain determination in matter of Religion, or else an other reformation, more perfect shallbe had. D. Is not that a very wise Council? I would desire no more, but the title of this worthy manner of reformation, to declare the great vanity of the authors of the same. For either it is builded upon the word of God: or else it is against it. If it be agreeable to God's word, there needeth not, either whilst, or until, for it shallbe always good and holy, If it be against it, and if it endure but one hour, it shall continue over long, for so much as what so ever thing it be, that is against God, the same aught to have no place, neither for short, nor long tyme. For it fareth not with god's kingdom as it doth with worldly kingdoms, neither with God's laws over the which we have no power, as it doth with man's laws. For when a king is dead, there is a certain time between the decease of the dead king, and the creation of the new king, which is called enter reign, which is a time between both, which is properly called neither reign nor kingdom, for so much as there is, as yet no king chosen as head of the same, and men can not say, that there is utterly no reign or kingdom, for so much as the laws, and country stand in their full power and effect, saving only that they have not, as yet their king appointed & chosen. And the like is when a chief Magistrate dieth in a Seigmorie. Now this can have no place in the kingdom of God: for the king thereof never dieth. Wherefore as he is eternal, so are his laws eternal, and the order of life, which he hath given to his subjects. T. For so much as it is so, there needeth then neither other reign nor other law, nor yet Interim, as these men would have.   

¶ For what cause and reason, the doctrine of the Interim, can not be received neither into the Church of Christ, ne yet into the Pope's Church.  
D. THerefore let us leave of this Interim, which doth so much confound itself, as ever did any thing: for it is made by such understanding and judgement, that no man may by reason approve it: for so much as in every respect, it is but a very Papistry, somewhat disguised, published, and covered with a mask, being finally different from the first. And therefore no man may follow the doctrine thereof, unless that he renounce the doctrine of jesus Christ, and make a new alliance with that of Antichrist. T. Yea and it was not framed, but to the end it might by little & little, pluck back from the Gospel, such as had already professed it, and to bring them wholly in the end to Papistry again. D. In deed it is accepted of none but of such men, for the papistes will none of it, & that not without cause: for if they should receive it, they should condemn themselves, for so much as the Interim doth permit things which they do utterly condemn. Wherefore as soon as they shall have received & allowed it, their traditions are clean gone: for they have embraced this foundation to build their kingdom upon, that their Church can not err: because it is always governed by the holy ghost. Wherefore if it should once by them be admitted which they have condemned: behold all their doctrine scattered & spilled, & consequently their kingdom overthrown. Afterward it will far with them as it doth which a piece of work made of  thread without any seam: which being once broken in any place, & that there be one thread plucked out of it, all the rest follow after in order easily. For, if that they once do that, them must they needs confess the either their Church hath not been governed by the holy Ghost, or else that they have an holy Ghost that may err. Wherefore, to avoid this inconveniency, they will leave no kind of thing which they have invented: they will never acknowledge their faults what or how many soever they be: notwithstanding that they know them apparently, & that they be enforced to condempn them in their own conscience, & that they be so foul, that the very beasts may judge of them. T. I have often times marveled at that which thou now sayest: but now I do well see what it is that letteth them.   

¶ Of such Christians as be neuters and indifferent, which follow the doctrine of the Interim: and of the mixture of the true & false doctrine, & how much it displeaseth god.  
D. FOr so much as it is so, we have no just occasion to dwell at all upon these Interimists, ne yet upon their Interim, which is a name whereunto men may join whatsoever they will. It is a beast that hath a very strong and a mighty back, which will bear what soever men will lay on him. It is a name made of an adverb, which doth very well agree with the Grammar, of those Gramarianes, which have forged it. For even as their Grammar. (I mean their divinity) is strange and different from all other doctrines, and especially from the true divinity of the sacred Scriptures, even so his language is very new, and strange, and hath his rules utterly different. The Greek and Latin Grammar, have the Masculine, Feminine, and Newtre Gender, the Hebrew hath but the two first, and wanteth the Neuter. And contrarily the Interim, hath neither Masculine nor Feminine, for he is neither Masle nor Femasle: but is Newtre, or at the least compounded of Masle and Femasle: and so must needs by common, and must needs be Masle and Femasle, both together, or else he can be neither the one, ne yet the other. T. Then shall he be a Monster. D. Yea in deed very monstrous, and so contrary to the word of God, as nothing more: for his Grammar is like to the Hebrew Grammar. It alloweth no Neuter 
Deut. ●●●.  Gender, and hardly doth it any common. It doth not permit to couple the Ox, and the Ass together in the plough, no more doth it permit to sow a field, with sundry kinds of grain, ne yet to make a cloth, of sundry stuffs and substances. It condemneth also the confusion of seed, of nature in beasts, and other living creatures, & holdeth those beasts for unclean, that are engendered by beasts of sundry kinds, as are Muletes, and Mules, and such other like, In the which it is plain, that the Lord hath had a further regard than to those things, when he gave such laws: & that he would admonish his people by those same, to observe good order in all things, & to eschew & avoid all confusion and disorder. Then if the mixture and confusion of sundry things do displease him, it must needs then displease him more, when that the greater part is the worst, as it is in the Interim. For there is very little pure doctrine in it: and that which is, is so darkened and corrupted, that nothing is more. Wherefore this common kind, by which he will be as a mean between the doctrine of jesus Christ, and that of Antichrist, doth right well be seem him. For common in the Scripture, is as much to say as polluted and defiled, as witnesseth Saint Mark in his. 7. chap. and Saint Peter in the Acts of the Apostles the. 10. chapi. And in our language, a common woman, is a whore. This Interim in like manner, maketh us common Christians, and neuters, like unto the Samaritans. For even as the Samaritans were properly neither jews, ne Pagans, but were made of them both: even so are these men properly neither Euangelique Christians, ne yet Papists, but a certain confusion, and mingle mangle of both together. T. Albeit that the doctrine of this Interim, be not in all respects so pure and perfect, as we would have it, is it not yet better to have it so, then to have it more corrupted, and to be such as is the doctrine of the Papists. D. In deed in one thing it is to be preferred, before the Popish doctrine, whereof thou speakest: which is that the poison that therein is, is more hidden. Wherefore it is the more dangerous, and the more to be feared and rejected. T. It is very true.   

¶ For what cause the Interim hath taken his name of an adverb, and how in sundry wise he may be applied.  
D. WE may judge of all those doctrines & Religions, which are so confounded and mingled, as of the law & Religion of Mahomet: for is it any thing better than that, of the jews and Pagans, for that it hath many things, taken out of the Christian Religion, mixed with that, that it hath of the jews and Pagans? And more over, it cometh very aptly to pass, that these forgers of Interim, have made him a name of an adverb: for as an adverb is a word joined to a verb, even so the doctrine of the Interim, is an adiunction to the word of God, not to open and declare it, as the adverb doth the Verb, but to darken and corrupt it. T. It is then like to the gloze of Orleans, which marreth the text. D. It is a very dangerous gloze, and seeing than it is an adverb, and that it signifieth, in the mean time, or whilst, or until, if they will interpret that word in the mean time even as thou hast said, we may also take him in this signification: In the mean time we die and shall be in danger of going to hell: In the mean time Antichrist shall reign, and the Gospel shall be persecuted: In the mean time they shall seek all the means possible to suppress and banish the word of God, and more strongly to establish the siege of Antichrist. And to be short, put to it all that ever thou wilt, and all the evil that may happen in the world, in the mean time, whilst, or until, will receive it all.   

¶ What profit they which have been instructed in the word of God, may receive by the councils: and what virtue and authority they have to bring men to the faith.  
T. I Agree well with that that thou haste said: but if there be a Council holden, and if it serve nothing at all for such as shall die looking for it, yet notwithstanding it shall profit such as may live unto it. D. And yet shalt thou not find there, by that mean, all that y● thou thinkest to find: for if one be holden, either it will conclude for jesus Christ, or against jesus Christ. If they do conclude for jesus Christ, and I have been well instructed in the word of God before hand, it shall not hurt me at all that I was instructed before hand. It hindereth not the commodity that I may receive of the Council, but doth increase it the more: for I shall be so much the more glad, when I shall see that doctrine approved wherein I have already been resolved, and have believed it, not only because it is approved by the Council, and by men, but for that it is the pure word of God, and that it alloweth itself, and that the holy Ghost beareth me witness: If I have not already been instructed nor resolved, either I will credit the determination which shall have been made by the Council, or else I will not credit it. For it is not a thing that of necessity must betide that every man must believe the determination of the Counsels, as soon as they have concluded: although the Council were lawful. For it is not in the power of men which shall hold it, to make all that please them to believe it. It is a work that is only proper to God, which giveth faith. And to seek to make men believe of force, that may not be: for faith may not be enforced. Wherefore if I make it seem that I do believe it, and do not believe it, I shall then be an hypocrite: if I do believe it, it is greatly to be feared lest that I do believe only upon the credit of others, being moved by the authority of men, rather than by the true persuasion of the word and of the spirit of God. And so, my faith shall be builded upon men, and upon their opinions, & not upon God and his word. It shall be then no faith, but only an opinion ready, to change as men shall change. T. It shall be as firm as shall the foundation whereupon it shall be builded.   

¶ How we may not be the disciples of men, but of jesus Christ: & how that the word of god taketh not his authority of the church, but the church taketh his of the word of God.  
D. Now our Lord jesus Christ willeth that we be his Disciples, and not the disciples of men, & that we have none other master but he, for it is only he that is gone 
Math. xxiii  forth from the bosom of the father, and that hath fully revealed unto us the father's will, and all that he hath heard of him: as witnesseth Saint john, It is very he that hath given us the whole sum of the articles of our Christian faith, 
john. two.  and of that doctrine we must needs hold, unto the which, it is not lawful for any man to add, ne yet 
Deut. 11.  to take away any thing from it. It is only he that hath brought us the truth, and that doctrine which of itself is naturally certain and immutable, and of his own nature can be none other, whether men do allow it or disallow it. It is the truth and that only doctrine, upon the which, the Church may surely dwell, which she may not, upon the natural wit of man, how excellent so ever it be, ne yet upon usage and custom, how ancient so ever it be. It is a truth & a doctrine not certain and worthy to be received because the Church & men do allow it: but for that it is so of his own nature, & can be none other. The Church doth approve it & receiveth it, and may neither reprove it, ne yet reject it, if it be the true Church of jesus Christ. In like manner the synagogue of Satan may neither approve ne yet receive it in any wise. For even as the synagogue of Satan can not acknowledge it, but accounteth it always for a stranger, for that she 
john. 8.  is the wife & daughter of the devil, which is the father of lies, & the enemy of all truth: even so by the contrary, it is impossible that the true Church of jesus Christ should not always acknowledge it, even as the daughter doth know her mother: for that she is the daughter of God, which is the truth itself, the daughter I say, begotten of the incorruptible seed of his word, and the wife of jesus, which is the way, the truth, & 
i Pet. ● Ephe. v john. xvi. john. x  life, and he by whom this truth of God is manifested and declared unto us. It is that sheep that heareth the voice of his shepherd & followeth it, & not the voice of the stranger. Then the word of God receiveth not that authority that it hath of the church, but the church receiveth her authority of it. In so much as show is signed and marked with the seal thereof. For she is to be compared to a piece of paper, or parchment, & to the wax, which give not authority to the writing & seals that are written and imprinted in them, but do receive their authority of them, & are made authentic by their authority, & by the authority of the prince unto whom the seal appertaineth, & for that he hath allowed it by his authority. Wherefore that doctrine, which of his nature is true and Christian, can not be made false nor heresy by the authority neither of the Church, ne yet of any creature what so ever he be: and that which of her nature is false and heresy, can not by any means be made true and Christian, no more than God may be the devil, or the devil God. Which things the questionary Doctors themselves are foreced to confess, namely the Doctor Gabriel. 
In senten. lib. dist. 25    

¶ How the word of God doth allow and authorize itself.  
T. DEclare unto me I beseech thee somewhat more plainly that which thou haste already spoken. D. Even so as I judge not the sun to be bright, because that other men judge it so, and that I have heard so say, but for that he is so of his nature, and declareth himself such an one by his light: and in fine, because I can not say the contrary, no in deed although I would: even in like sort, I believe not in the word of God, ne yet hold it for certain, and true, and for the inchaungeable will of God, by the authority of any man what so ever he be, but because that God, who lighteneth the eyes, and giveth understanding to little ones, 
Psalms, nineteen  hath illumined me by the light of the same, & hath constrained me to acknowledge it such as it is, and to believe it: and I may not otherwise do, if I be of the children of God, and led and governed by his spirit. For, if I be of the children of God, God hath given me eyes by the means of his holy spirit, to see this light. And albeit that I can not see it if God do not give me eyes to behold it, and that he do not open them: yet notwithstanding having received this same of God, it can in no wise be showed, but that I must acknowledge and receive it. I can not hear the voice of God my father, ne yet of jesus Christ my shepherd, but that I must understand it and follow it, if I be of the children of God, 
john. 8. 10  and of the sheep of Christ. For he that is of God (as jesus Christ sayeth) he heareth the word of God, and the sheep hear and understand and know the voice of their shepherd.   

¶ What goodness men may receive by a good Council, and what evil may happen unto them by an evil Council, accordingly as they have been instructed in the Christian religion.  
T. I Grant that all that which thou haste said be true: yet because that God will be served by the ministery of men, to make his voice to be heard in his Church, thou canst not deny but that the Council may do much good, if it be of God, to show forth the light of the truth to many which know it not, nor as yet can see it. D. I deny not that: but this only do I say, that if we may have means to be illumined before that time, we ought not to have a pleasure in tarrying in our blindness until that time, but aught by all means to travail to receive light with all speed possible, considering that God doth give us so many other means whereby to receive it, and that for those causes which have been before alleged. T. I do not greatly deny that. D. And on the contrary, if it so come to pass that the Council decree any thing against the doctrine of our Lord jesus Christ (as it hath oftentimes come to pass in times passed, and as it is plain that it shall come to pass in the Council of Trent, if the end do answer his beginning) if thou hast not been already well instructed, but hast been nourished in superstition and idolatry, and being in that estate, dost trust in men, thou art sure that the Council shall serve thee for no purpose, but only to confirm thee more strongly in thine errors, and continually to seduce thee more and more. And for so much as the seduction being armed with the appearance of the Council, shall have more authority, so much shall it be the more dangerous, and shall take the deeper root in thy heart. But if thou hast been once well instructed and well resolved, thou shalt be then out of this danger, for that faith that is founded on jesus Christ, and on his word, is so firm and strong, that in 
Math, xvi.  deed all the infernal powers are able to do nothing against it.   

¶ In what thing, and how far the good councils may bridle the audacity of the wicked, & give quietness to men  
T. ALthough there be great appearance in that that thou sayest, yet notwithstanding it seemeth to me that thou hast not well satisfied mine two points wherein a man might reply: For if the Council conclude in that favour of the truth, it shall be greatly to purpose for the faithful, to repress & to hold with closed mouths, the rebels, the wilful ones, the heretics, and the schismatics. And as touching the other point which thou dost prepone concerning the inconvenience that may happen of an evil Council: What answer wouldst thou make to those which do affirm that the Council can not err? D. I will first answer to thy first point, & then after that we will come to the second. If the Council do refrain & make the enemies of the truth to hold their peace, yet for all that it can not change their evil hearts, but that they will secretly persever in their errors, awaiting some more meet occasion. They will do as the Arians & the other heretics did, who for a time did hold their peace, fearing to be punished: but immediately as soon as they might find any favour, they did prepared again their horns, & did more hurt than before. And think not you at all that the papists would do less in these our days, if the Council were lawful, and that their errors were there condemned, even as they do right well deserve: and thou mayest well assure thyself that if they were the stronger party, they would see whether party had the best sword, before they would agree. And then if they saw that they could not prevail, they would reserve themselves unto a better opportunity, until that time that they might meet with some Emperors, Kings, & princes, that they might seduce, by whom they might be maintained, and to find the mean to hold some other Council fit for their purpose, to deface and abolish all that ever should have been decreed against them in the other. For it would be to great a grief to my Lords the Prelates and to the pillars of the church, and to their cousins and friends, and to all those that live by the hire of fornications and adultryes of the great whore of Babylon, which are made drunken with the venomous wines of her fornications (made of the tree, not of the lords vine, but of Sodom and Gomorre) to leave their fat kitchen, and to renounce their stalle fed bellies (which is the God the which they would maintain by their councils) to put themselves in order to serve and obey the living God, and jesus Christ his son our Lord. And without seeking proof further of, to show by the same what hope men may have of their obey sans towards the determinations of a good & Christian Council, there needeth no more but to behold how they do endeavour themselves at this present, and heretofore have done, to observe the statutes and ordinances of the ancient Counsels, of the which they do so much glorify: yea even of very those which wholly have been made for their purpose. For there is no one thing which is concluded in them according to the word of God, but that they themselves do first transgress it, and do observe not so much as one point thereof: unless it be such as are clean contrary to the word of God. For even as they make laws at their pleasure, so may they dispense with them at their pleasure: for so much as they are Gods upon earth. And therefore do fear neither GOD nor man what so ever he be, but do permit to themselves all that which their earthly God, and Satan the God and prince of this world doth permit unto them, now if it be hard to amend and frame 
2. Cori, 3. joh. 1●. 14.  that wicked by that mean of a good Council, it shall then be more hard to shut up close that mouths (by the means of a wicked Council) for the children of God, who can not be overcome even by very death, but in dying do overcome: I do say it shall be no less difficile to abolish and wipe out truth, which is the daughter of the invincible and immortal God.   

¶ What fruit the Church may receive of lawful councils, and what mixture there is in her of good and bad, and what is her office toward the one and the other.  
T. I Do willingly consent & agree to all that thou sayest: but how so ever it be, the ancient councils have not yet been without fruit, for at the least they have given some repose to the church for a certain time, and have armed the faithful against the heretics: as we do see in 
Lib. 7. cont. Donat. Lib. 1. cont. Donat.  Saint Augustine, for he doth arm himself against the Donatists with the union of the holy universal church, and of the authority of the full Council, as with a buckler: thinking that the full and lawful Council is the consent of the whole church. I do not deny but what so ever Council is holden, there may yet continue still in the church many hypocrites, which will sceme to agree with it, and yet for all that in the mean time they will nourish their poison in their hearts. But the church leaveth such to the judgement 
Matth. xiii.  of God. For even as our Lord jesus Christ doth plainly show it in his parables, she can not be without hypocrites so long as she shall continue upon this earth: upon the which she can not be so pure, but that she shall always be mixed with good & evil. But it is enough for the church to teach simply and plainly that, which every man is bound to believe, and then the true children of the church do believe simply and constantly that which their mother teacheth them and that unfeignedly, and obey her without any gain saying. The hypocrites which are not her lawful children, but misbegotten and bastards, may well through their false show deceive and abuse men, but not God: they may deceive the espouse, but not the bridegroom, wherefore she holdeth her well contented, when she hath done that, which she is able to do, to wit to teach the true doctrine, to correct by discipline such as be faulty, to the end that she may bring them into the right way, and that she may entertain them, every one in his place and vocation: or else if they be so perverse, wicked and incorrigible, that they will not change their opinions, and if they can do no good, with such kind of men, yet will they endeavour themselves, at the least so well to provide for others, that they shall not be able to hurt them, nor to trouble their peace, and union, & in the mean time she leaveth the judgement of the heart to god, and it is sufficient for her to entertain her sheep and lambs in peace, and to let the wolves, that they scatter not the flock.   

¶ What praise is due to good princes & Magistrates, which employ themselves in the reformation of the Church, and what fruit it getteth by their labour and office, as well for the cause of the faithful, as of the hypocrites: and of the changes that happen in Religion, according to the princes that reign.  
T. I Say not the contrary, or otherwise, when the Church is troubled and scattered, we should reject the means, which God hath given to repair it: which we may not do without tempting of God. Wherefore I do very well allow the goodwill and diligence of such as travail faithfully in the procuring of a lawful Council, or Synods, such as are requisite in the Church of God: and I judge those princes worthy of great praise, which according to the example of Ezechias, 
two. Reg. xviii 22. 23 2. Chr. 29. 34. Ezech. iii.  and josias, do endeavour themselves to reform those Churches, that are within their liberties and countries. For albeit that many dwell still in their old skins, yet do they their duty, for their part. They glorify in their offices, they do assure & entertain the good in peace. They are a means to make strong those that are weak, and do discharge their souls from the blood of such as perish through their own default, and not in that, that they have not done their duty. And therefore I deny not but that of lawful Counsels, there cometh often times great profit, for a certain time, for the policy and outward peace of the Church: but I say that they are not sufficient thoroughly to appease the troubles that are in Christendom, and to edify perfectly the inward man, & to quiet the conscience in deed, and to give it true quietness and assurance, if nothing else. They are unto the wicked as the authority of the sword and of the Magistrate, & may well stay their hands & feet, but they can not alter nor change 
Prou. 10  their hearts, which only God hath in his hand, even as the division of waters, and inclineth them to what part he wil We have the example hereof very plain in Ezechias, and josias, of whom we have already spoken: whilst these good kings lived all errors, abuses, Idolatries, and superstitions were abolished outwardly, and put away from among the people of God, and the Church was well reform: but it was not clearly plucked out of the hearts of them all, but was secretly nourished, unto that time, that occasion was offered to declare themselves, as experience doth witness. For as soon as they had changed their king, and that they had a prince which was an Idolater, the people forthwith changed with the prince, and returned immediately to their first Idolatry, as it came to pass under Manasses, joachim, and Zedechias. And in manner the like happened in the time of the heretics, for they did always either lose or 
●. Re. xxiiii  increase their stoutness, accordingly as they found their princes. T. The ancient histories of the Church do yield clear and perfect witness of that which thou sayest.   

¶ Of the hypocrisy of those that depend only upon men, in matter of Religion, and of the proof thereof.  
D. NOw from whence do these sudden alterations and changes proceed? but that the one sort are enforced through fear to leave of, & to set a good face on it: as a horse doth whilst a man hath him short rained in his bridle, which after being put into the fields, as soon as he is at liberty, or else as a river which is letted or holden back by force of rampires, which floeth forth violently, as soon, as they are broken. The other sort do change as the prince doth, because they dwell upon the authority and doings of men, and not upon the only word of God. And therefore I say, that even as the Counsels, do make the one sort hypocrites, so make they the other, disciples of men, rather than of jesus Christ. For, to receive a doctrine, and to believe it, for the authority and appearance of men, which do allow it, that is not properly to believe the word of God, although it be nothing else but the very pure Gospel: but it is to believe and wholly to put trust in men. For if those men, which by their authority have moved me to receive it, should happen to forsake it: I should be no less priest and ready to refuse & to shake it of with them, than I was to receive it and to allow it be their means. We do at this present see very plainly the experience hereof in those Churches, which here tofore have been reform by the preachyug of the Gospel, which at this present have received the Interim, and the Mass. For that Interim is a very perfect token or proof for men to know in deed, who they be that have unfeignedly believed God, and his word, and which they be, that have dwelled upon men, and their authority, and have received the Gospel, either through hypocrisy and dissmulation for the love of men, and the hope of their own gain and fleshly liberty, or else by perfect faith and true simplicity of heart, and by that very persuasion of the spirit of God in their conscience, for the health of their souls, & to serve to the glory of God. Those men that do change in such sort their faith, with every wind that bloweth, do plainly declare that they never understood jesus Christ very well, when he said: Be 
Mat. xxiii  not ye called masters upon earth, for ye have a master in heaven, to wit jesus Christ.   

¶ In what sort we may esteem men for masters and teachers, and in what manner we are made the disciples of jesus Christ, or of men.  
T. DOth he thereby forbidden us, to have masters to teach us, and to call those masters of whom we receive instruction? D. How should he forbid it, considering it is he himself, that doth teach us by them that are nothing else, but the ministers of his grace, by whom he, which is our chief master, doth declare himself to us: wherefore should he else have sent his Prophets, Apostles, and disciples, to teach and preach his holy Gospel unto us? would he not that we should hear those that he sendeth unto us, as if it were himself in proper person, that speaketh to us, and doth teach us? Wherefore said he then to his Apostles, he that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that refuseth and despiseth you, refuseth & 
Math. x.  despiseth me? and after immediately he showeth the reason: For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your heavenly father that speaketh in you. T. What is there to be understood by these? how may we both have, and not have, masters upon the earth. D. If by hearing those that he sendeth unto us, we receive the doctrine which they preach unto us, and believe the same, not for their sake that speak unto us, ne yet for their great authority and appearance, neither for the opinion that we have of them, either to please them, or else to receive some worldly honour or profit at their hands: but only because it is the pure and true word of God, and that we hear that voice of jesus Christ our shepherd, through their mouth: being certain and assured by his holy spirit, that it is he that speaketh in them: we are not then the disciples of men, but of Christ. And then is that same fulfilled in us, which our Lord jesus Christ allegeth of the Prophet Isaiah, and that which he himself expoundeth in the Gospel of S. john: And thy sons shallbe all taught 
Esay. iiii● john. 6  of God. Then who soever hath heard, and learned of the father, cometh to me. For when we believe, having been so taught by God, it is for his sake, that we do receive the doctrine, 
Psal. lxxx●  and we take him for our master, and not the men: albeit that he doth communicate his name unto them, because that they are his servants and ministers: as the name of God is given unto judges, Prophets, and to the elect of God, because that the Image of his majesty & justice doth shine and is present in them, although they be continually men, and not Gods. And on the contrary: If I believe the doctrine which I hear, because that Tertullian or Cyprian. Origene or Chrisostome, Irene or Ambrose, Jerome or Augustine, Gregory or Isidore, Luther or Erasme, Eccius or Melancthon, Gratian or Peter Lombard, master of the sentences, john the Scotte or Thomas of Alquine, do preach and teach the same unto me: or else because that the Popes, and Cardinals, the Bishops, and others, whom I esteem rich, mighty and wise personages, of great virtue and holiness, do allow and commend the same, or else because that the Emperors, kings, princes, and Lords, the Italians and Spaniards, the Almains the French, and other nations do believe it: I am then no disciple of jesus Christ in this doing, but a disciple of men.   

¶ Of the nature and virtue of true faith, and what difference there is between it and opinion.  
T. According to this account there are more disciples of men, then of jesus Christ. For there are very few which have not greater regard to men, then to any thing else. D. Yet notwithstanding if it be so, their faith to say truth is no faith, but opinion, as it hath been already declared. For seeing that it is not builded upon the authority of God, and his word, but only upon the opinion which I have of such personages, it may be no faith. For faith may have none other regard, object, subject, nor foundation, but God in jesus Christ, & his only truth. If it have any other foundation, if it be builded upon men, and upon the opinion that men shall have of them, it shall change as men do, and as the opinion doth that men have conceived. It shall fall when they fall, it shall be inconstant, variable and subject to change, even as they are. For she shall not be builded upon 
Math. xxii i. Pet. two Ephes. two i. Cor. iii Math. xvi  the lively stone, which is jesus Christ, and upon the sure foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, upon the which, the true Church must be builded, if it will endure against the gates of hell, and the whole hellish power, otherwise how may it be a faith? For these vices are as contrary to faith, as is the fire to the water. Wherefore, such as dwell upon men in this sort, and do not discern of things, nor prove the spirits whether they be of God or no, according to the Council given by Saint john: What assurance may they have 
john. iiii  in their consciences? Whilst they are at rest, and that they be not assailed by temptations, nor wakened by the judgement of God, and that they do haunt among such as are of the same religion, that they are of, it seemeth unto them, that their faith is very sure & strong: but when they shall find themselves assailed with divers temptations, & compassed round with great dangers, & that God shall a little astoone their consciences with his judgement, they shall then find what stay they have of men, & that there is no perfect assurance, nor true quietness of conscience, but in the true faith, engendered in the hearts of men, by the very persuasion of the word & spirit of God. And if it should hap that they should be conversant among men of an other Religion, what would they then do? T. If they should be in Turckie, they would as well receive the laws of Mahomet, & refuse the Christian Religion, as the turks do: for they have even the same reasons and arguments to do it, as otherwise they have to accept or refuse that, which they have already received or disallowed. They would even do the like, if that they were among the jews, or any other nation, which should hold any other religion, than the Christian. D. It is not to be doubted.   

¶ Of the honour that is dew, to good and true teachers in the Church, and of the mean that we ought to keep, to the end that we do give neither to much, ne yet to little credit to men: & how perilous a thing it is, to trust to much to a man's own judgement.  
T. IF the matter be as thou sayest, to what purpose do the good doctors serve, which have received so many excellent gifts of God, for the edifying of his Church? D. I say not these things to despise or condemn them: for we should be to much unkind toward them, if we should condemn or despise them, considering they have taken so great pain to make the holy Scriptures more plain and easy unto us, and that by their labour we have had great commodity. They have sweat, to deliver us from a great deal of pain and travail, and have greatly helped us with their labour, and made the way more plain for us. Also we should be to outrageous against God, if that we should despise them, blaspheming the gifts of his holy spirit which he hath bestowed among them. Wherefore, think not that I do allow the judgement of certain rash men, or favour a number of puffed proud spirits, who without any regard condemn all men, esteeming none but themselves. Because they have known that the world hath been seduced by giving to much credit to the judgements of men, and have been to light of credit, not enquiring of the truth, by the witness of the holy Scriptures, they have gone so far on the other side, that they are no less to be blamed, than those whom they do condemn. For if it be perilous to credit to much the judgements of men, so is it also dangerous, if that we give not that credit that we ought to do, to the judgements of those, which govern themselves according to the word of God. T. It is a very hard matter to keep measure and mean, and so to do thincking to avoid the one sort, of extremity and peril, that we fall not more dangerously into the other. For if I give no credit to the judgement of others, but will dwell wholly upon mine own, and upon my opinion, wherein am I more worthy of praise, than they whom I do condemn? Am not I a man as they are? D. There is no doubt but if I do follow only mine own judgement, & fantasy, I follow the judgement of men, for I am no God, any more than other men are. If the others be to be blamed, because of their over much lightness, negligence, raysh belief, & folly, so should I also fear that I be not subject to greater blame through folly, pride, self will & false persuasion of myself. T. Here is no small danger: but before all other things we ought to fear, lest we stand to much in our own con- & trust to much to our own judgements & understanding, despising the judgements of others, & to be to much given and wedded to our own wills. For this vice is marvelous dangerous, & is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Schisms, which are the most dangerous pestilences, that may happen into the Church. D. Therefore have I said these things to the end that we might know how to follow that moderation, the which S. Augustine hath followed without giving more or less unto men, than faith & Christian charity may endure, yielding always to God, & to the canonical Scriptures, that honour which we do owe unto them, & taking good heed, that we give no more to Counsels & to men, then to them, what appearance or show so ever they have For they that come to Counsels, are men. And in that they are men: they are changeable, subject to errors and untruth. They do conclude according as the spirit is, by whom they are governed. If they be led by the spirit of God they will conclude in the favour of the truth: if they be led by the spirit of error, as were the Prophets of Achab against Miche, they will maintain and confirm lies. 
i King. xxii.  And by these means they, that shall follow them, shall be in very good case.   

¶ Of the difference that men ought to put between the doctrine and writings of the Apostles and Prophets, and of those that came after them, and the cause thereof.  
T. I Do confess that those which come to the Counsels, are men, but a man may reply, that in a lawful general Council, they are guided by the holy Ghost, and that he will not suffer them to err. S. Paul and S. john, 
jame. i Act. 3. 14 Gal. 1. 2.  David and Ely, Esay and Moses, and all the Prophets and Apostles were men like unto others, subject to the same infirmities that others were, and yet S. Paul doth so authorize his doctrine (as hath been already said) that he condemneth the Angels of heaven, if they do gain say it. Wherefore they conclude, that even so as the Prophets and Apostles were men; and yet notwithstanding all their writings are without error, even so fareth it with the fathers in all their determinations and Counsels. D. They conclude veri evil, and speak wholly against the sentence of S. Augustin, who is as good a christian as any one. For they attribute as much to the books & ordinances of men, as to the Canonical books: whereupon we ought to consider, that albeit the Prophets and Apostles were men, yet notwithstanding there is great difference between them and those that came after them. For we are certain that they spoke by the spirit of God, and that God hath not suffered any error to be mingled in their writings, because that he would they should be given and left to us for most certain rules, whereby to examine all other doctrines. There is yet an other matter beside this, which is well worthy to be noted: To wit, that if any of those by whom it hath pleased God to be served in this work, have chanced to commit any fault in their office, the spirit of God hath not hidden it, but hath manifestly declared it, to the end the men should not so be moved with the authority of such personages, that they should follow lies in the steed of the truth, and vice in the steed of virtue. We have an evident example hereof in Nathan the Prophet, who without having demanded 
i Sam. 7  at the mouth of the Lord, said of his own only authority, and proper council to David, that he should build the lords house and temple, wherefore he was rebuked and corrected immediately: the next night following by the Lord, who commanded him to declare the contrary to David. We may also allege the example of the Prophet which was sent into Beth-el and was killed by the Lion: 
i kings. 17 job in jere. xx i Kings. nineteen jonas. 2 Gal. 2  and that of job, and of jeremy who cursed the day of their birth: and also that of Hely and of jonas, & so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the which S. Paul reproved him. I leave untouched a number of others: such like. Now it standeth not so at this present with us, ne yet with the ancient doctors that were before us. For seeing that God would that this rule should be observed in his church, it could not otherwise be, but that it must be appointed by a number of books certain, or else there would never have been any end. Seeing then that the Lord hath once appointed and allowed this rule, we may compare unto it neither book nor Council, what so ever they be. For if since the time of the Apostles there hath never been man, of what holiness or knowledge so ever he were, that hath so perfectly and well written and taught, as the Prophets and Apostles did without failing in any one thing▪ we may not think that it is otherwise in their Councils and Sinodall statutes, than it is in their books. For those that writ such books, be the very self and same men by whom the councils are celebrated and holden, unto whom their advises and opinions are spoken, even as they are couched in their books. Wherefore they may as well err in the one, as in the other: we must also know that the most holy and perfect men in deed have not all the gifts of God, neither continually nor in all ages, ne yet in all things, no, not those gifts in deed which are given unto them: but that GOD doth reveal many things to others, and at other times.   

¶ What rule S. Augustine giveth concerning councils and the writings of the ancient Fathers.  
T. Sing it is so, it is very needful that we have some certain rule wherewith to guide us in these matters. D. I do think that we can not do better, nor follow a better rule, when any of these things come in question, then to follow the manner of proceeding that S. Augustine did use with Maximine, Bishop of the Arrians, which would arm himself with the Council of Arimine, against the conclusion that was made and confirmed by the holy fathers, touching the divinity of our Lord jesus Christ, in the Council of Nice, by the authority of the truth, as it is said, and by the truth of authority. Tom. 6. Lib. 3. I may not now, sayeth he, allege the Council of Nice, nor thou the Council of Arimine, as for a prejudice, neither am I bound to the authority of the one, nor thou to the authority of the other. Let us debate the one matter with the other, the one cause with the other, the one reason with the other, by the authority of the Scriptures, not by proper and particular witness of every man, but by indifferent to us both. Which thing he hath also written in other places as concerning 
To Paul, Epist. 112 To Hic. 29 Epist  the authority of the Canonical books, & agreeth very well with this. I will not, saith he, that thou embrace mine authority, to the end thou shouldest think it necessary to believe any thing, because that I have spoken it: but that thou believe the Canonical Scriptures. And again, I confess to thy charity, that I have learned to bear that honour and reverence to the only books of the Scriptures which are called Canonical, that I do believe assuredly that no one of the authors of them hath in any one jot of his writings erred. And immediately after he saith: But I read y● others in such 〈…〉 what excellency of holiness and doctrine so ever be 〈…〉, I think not that which they say to be true because that they were of that opinion, but because that I am persuaded that that which they speak, is agreeing to the truth, either by the Canonical authors, or else by apparent reason. This is his manner of writing to Saint Jerome. And again, thou seest here how S. Augustine submitteth the writings of the ancients, and the Counsels, to the word of God, and to the determinations thereof, contained in the holy Scriptures, and maketh it judge above all. T. I do find the advise of S. Augustine very good: but me thinketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the ancient Doctors and determinations of the lawful Counsels, whereof I would gladly hear the resolution. But because that we have entreated of many good points touching this matter of councils, it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an end, to the end I may have some little time to call to my remembrance those things, whereof we have already discoursed to that purpose, and because I will not be to tedious unto thee. D. Fear not to demand of me: for there is nothing that I do more willingly. T. I know that well, but I should be to much discourtese and rude, if I should have no regard: nor spare thee more than thou wouldst spare thyself. Moreover it is not suffii●ent for me to hear only as do many scholars, which charge themselves with more lessons than their capacity may endure, doing nothing but hear without profiting or learning of any thing. D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest.     


❧ The effect of the third Dialogue entitled the authority of councils: making mention of the ancient doctors and decrees.  
I Do contain in this Dialogue following, the matter of Counsels, concerning their authority, alleging many examples of ancient histories, by the which I do show the great contrariety that hath been between many Counsels, and many decrees and Canons, as well of them, as of romish Popes. There is in the same also mention made of the liberty given to Christians, for to reform the abuses that shall happen in religion, and of the duty that every man doth owe to the same: and of the attended of them that do attend upon those that are called the prelate's of the church. Likewise of the lawful assembles that are made in the name of Christ: and of the gift of Prophecy: and of the promise of God, and to whom, and upon what condition. Moreover, of the authority of the true and lawful Counsels, which must be held to be the very rule and line to rule all others, and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do observe in theirs. And as touching the rest, every man may the more easily understand the other points and matters th●t therein are entreated of, by the little sums or titles, by the which we have packed them together shortly, declaring them in order, even as we have done in the Dialognes' going before. It is easy to judge by this some, why I have given this title to this Dialogue.   

❧ The third Dialogue, entitled, the authority of councils.  

¶ Of the assistance of the holy Ghost in lawful Counsels: and of his gifts: and of the perpetual conservation of the truth in the church.  

Tymothe.  
Daniel.   
IF thou hadst time I would very gladly that thou wouldst continue those matters, of the which we did discourse at our last departure of the one, from the other. D. I am ready when so ever thou wilt be ready to hear. And therefore declare what thou haste to say, as touching the writings of the ancient Fathers and Doctors, & what difference there ought to be put between them and the decrees passed and determined in the lawful councils. T. When these good fathers and ancient doctors, do teach or write any thing in particular, they may more easily err, being as particulars, them when they are assembled together at the Council, in the which the spirit of God doth assist in greater effect and virtue, in so much as the gifts & graces which he hath given to every member of the body of jesus Christ, are all there together even as it were in one perfect 
Roma. xii. i Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i, Sam. 10  body. Wherefore the one helpeth the other, and every man feeleth the more presently the virtue of the spirit of God in himself. For if Saul which was forsaken of God, did prophecy among the Prophets, after that he was come into their companies, in such sort that it became a common proverb among the Hebrews, and it was said: is not Saul also amongst the Prophets? Is it not more like to be true that God will give the spirit of prophecy to them that come together to the Council for his glory, and for the edification of the Church? For where is it that the promises by the which God doth promise his perpetual assistance, and an everlasting course of truth to his church, should have place, if not in such a company? Hath he not said: behold, my covenant which I have made with them. My spirit which is in thee, and my words which I have put into thy mouth, shall 
Esay. iix  not departed from thy mouth, nor from the mouth of thy seed forever. And again, he will give you an other comforter, the spirit of truth, to the end that he tarry with you. And he shall 
john. xiiii  lead you in the knowledge of all truth. D. I will not utterly deny all that thou sayest, if they come together to that end that thou speakest of. But all Synedes, Seanes and Counsels, have not always been assembled in the name of jesus Christ. The examples which are in the ecclesiastical histories do witness the same, and the Canons and decrees which have been ordained and concluded in them. For oftentimes they repugn the one to the other, as much as do: the fire and water.   

¶ What things there are to be desired in councils, yea even in those councils which have been most excellent and lawful of all those that have been celebrated and holden since the time of the Apostles.  
T. I Would very gladly that thou wouldst prove by some examples worthy of faith, that which thou now sayest. D. Even those same that have been most lawfully assembled, although they have ordained & established very good things, founded upon the word of God, and that they have mightily defended the cause of the truth, & that God hath not suffered them to err in the chief points, & in matters that are properly the very substance of religion, and do concern the articles of the faith, necessary unto salvation: yet doth it not follow for all that, but that they may have erred in some things, & that they may have made constitutions that sometime are more contrary to the word of God, them conformable. And without seeking any further, we need but to examine the Canons, decrees & ordinances of the Council of Nice, which is accounted the chief of all, next to the Council of the Apostles, & of all that rest consequently, which men think to be that most perfect & certain, & most worthy of credit: and it shall be easy to judge, if every of them hold in all respects the Apostolic majesty & authority, how far of they are oftentimes from the purity of doctrine, which was in the primitive church. For God would not do unto others that honour, which he hath done to his Prophets, & Apostles: to the end that the humane authority should not be comparable to the divine, which ought always to be preferred. How many laws & constitutions may men find made in these Counsels, which draw more near to man's wisdom: or to Jewish and Paganishe superstition, then to the simplicity of the doctrine of the Apostles? I speak of the very same that have been decreed by those councils that are best allowed in the church of God and Christ, and are worthy to be esteemed the true servants of God.   

¶ Of the weaknesses that have been found at the Council of Nice, in them that were there gathered and assembled, and what holy and excellent personages there were present at the same.  
T. THou speakest as yet but in general: I pray thee let us now come to particular examples. D. We spoke lastly of the Council of Nice: but thinkest thou that all the decrees of the same be as well founded upon the holy Scriptures, as were the disputations, arrestes and determinations which were there agreed upon against the Arrians? T. I have no occasion to doubt it, if I see not the contrary. D. If all those which are named unto it, were there determined, there are some touching the discipline of the Church very superstitious & curious, and an other sort rigorous and curious enough. Moreover I see no great appearance in that which forbiddeth men to kneel, when they pray on the Sundays, and on the day of Pentecoste. I leave that whereof Gracian maketh mention under the same title, concerning the consecration of temples or churches: because it is to beastly and to unworthy of such a Council. On the other part, how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the ministers of the church to use their lawful wives, yea by the common consent of all such as did there assist, directly against the word of God, if one Paphnutius had not had more of the spirit of God in that behalf, than all 
Hist. trip. li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euseb. hist. eckl. li 10. ●  the rest of the Council, who letted that determination, by the very word of God. Moreover in the same Council was not the Emperor Constantine greatly ashamed, to hear the Bishops and pastors of the church, which were men so greatly esteemed for their doctrine and holiness of life, so to accuse the one the other (being personages of so great honesty) and to contend and outrage one an other, as it had been a number of women that had chidden. Was he not constrained to cast all their accusations and libels of evil report (which they had prepared the one against the other) in to the fire? For he well understood that these affections and particular causes which they had one against an other, should hinder the principal causes for the which they were assembled. For many of them were more affectionate to their particular causes, then to the common cause: and desired more their victory, then that of the truth. There were there, three hundred and threescore Bishops by account in that Council, the flower of Christendom: among whom was this Paphnutius, a Bishop of Egipte, of whom we have already spoken, a very man of God who had endured much for the truth, and had the gift of miracle. Spiridion Bishop, of Cypre, who was a very excellent personage, there was in like sort present: Paul Neocharien Martyr, who had both his hands burnt in the persecution, of Maximian, and many other such like who had the gift of miracle, and had behaved themselves valiantly and constantly in that persecution, if then the imperfections, weaknesses and affections were so great among the bishops, in such a company, that Constantine was all amazed and ashamed, to see at such a time, that so worthy personages should show themselves, in such sort men, and so subject to their affections: let us then think what might be in our time, and what assistance of the holy Ghost we may hope: for in such a company as shall there assemble. T. It is easy to discern.   

¶ Of the great contearieties, discords & dissensions that have been in many of the ancient Counsels, between the Bishops, and the Ministers of the Church.  
D. LEt us proceed: and for greater proof of that which we have said, let men see in the histories of the Church what the partialities, the bands and dissensions of the Bishops have done, in the Counsels holden in Tire, in jerusalem, in Antioch, in Sirmie, and at Constantinople. Moreover 
Sozo. 2 c 25 hist. tri. li 1. 2. 33. & lib 2 c. 10. c. 30. & lib. 4. c. 10 Rut 1. c. 28 hist. Tri. lib 9 c 12. The●do. ●. c. ● & lib. 4 c. 24. & lib, 5  how hath the Council of Alexandrie troubled that of Calcedonie, and the Council of Antioch, that of Ephesus. There arose so great trouble in Christendom, and it was so denied and was so full of sects, Schisms, heresies and human affections, that if men should have given more place to the favour of Emperors, kings and princes, to the assembles of Popes and Bishops, to the authority of Counsels, to the art and eloquence of Orators, to the subtility & understanding of Philosophers, them to the truth, it had been needful to have abrogated, cassed, undone, and abolished, that which had been agreed, determined and hollyly confessed for Christ, and for the Christian doctrine, in the Counsels of Nice, Milan, Sardice, Corduba and such like, many other Counsels, which were holden after them, would have overthrown all that ever was determined and agreed upon in them, which had not much less appearance than the others. If they had not so much or more. And the matters whereof the differences did grow, were of no small importance. For there was question of the divinity of Christ against 
Hist. Tri. li. 2. c. 20. Soz. 3.  the Arrians, for the which the Bishops of the East and West did celebrate & hold Counsels, the one against the other, the one sort condemning the cause and doctrine of the Arrians, the other sort approving and maintaining the same.   

¶ Of the contradiction of the Popes, and of their Decrees and Ordinances, the one sort contrary to the other.  
T. THou dost declare unto me, things very unpleasant and offensive to those that are Christians. D. There is yet much more, as well of Counsels, as of Popes which will be the presidents of them. For how many Popes have there been that have condemned and abolished that, which their predecessors have established & ordained? What a number hath there been of them, which have even as the ancient Roman Emperors did, who when they possessed the Empire after the decease of their predecessors, did abrogate and make of none effect, all that ever their predecessors had established and ordained? Behold one Pope shall make laws, and shall cause a Council to be holden for his purpose, in the which he will ordain, what so ever shall please him, and shall command it under pain of excommunication and everlasting cursing, that the same shallbe kept and observed among the Christian people. And after him there shall come an other, which shall abolish all that, and shall do clean contrary, he shall excommunicate and curse all those that will do that which before was commanded under pain of excommunication and damnation. T. If it be so, the Christian people can not choose but stand always a cursed. D. It is certain. For it is an impossibility to observe and keep their Decrees and ordinances, without falling into such perplexities and inconveniences: he that will not believe me, let him read their Canons and Decrees, and Platina which hath written, the lives of the Popes, and hath been nourished and brought up in their Court, and Sabellicus, & the other historians which have entreated of these matters. T. I beseech thee show me some examples to prove this to be true, to the end that I may not think that thou speakest of pleasure, without proof. D. If I should allege all those that I might gather out of their books, I could find enough wherewith to outretayne thee a long time: but I will hold me contented with a reasonable number, to satisfy thy request. We will first speak of the Canons and Decrees that the Popes have made the one sort contrary to the other. 
Platin●  What agreement is there between the Pope john, the xxij. & the Pope Nicholas, when the one pronounced judicially the jesus Christ and his Apostles possessed nothing neither in private ne yet in common: and the other did the clean contrary. 
secre. 4. ●itl. de divor ca 5 Plat. Sabel  In the matter of divorce, Celestine doth permit that the faithful party shall marry again: if that the other party be fallen into heresy, Innocent on the contrary denieth it. Afterward, Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect, the acts of the Pope Formosus, by the authority of the Council: and again john the x. who succeeded this Stephen, did condemn his sentence in the assemble of Ravenna, here must it needs be of necessity, that not only the one or the other of the Pope's hath erred, but also that Counsels which have followed their opinions and sentences, whom they have abused, to confirm their errors, abuses, and tyranny by their authority. Wherefore Gerson, which was one of their own doctors, said not without great reason, that the saying of one doctor approved by the Canonical Scriptures, was more to be credited then the declaration of the Pope, and the saying of a doctor well seen in the holy Scriptures, and alleging the universal authority, was more to be credited then a general Council. T. He did not amiss, for somuch as they do so disagree among themselves. D. Panormitan which was at the same time, a man of great reputation, and was present at the Counsels of Constance 
●●nor. in ●a signify. de Elecii.  and Basle, as Gerson was, hath said no less, although he were a great idolater of the Papacy: for he said that we ought more to credit the saying of a simple lay man, alleging for his proof the Scriptures, then to all the whole Council.   

¶ Of the contrariety of the Decrees of many Counsels touching the Marriage of the Ministers of the Church.  
T. I Do not a little marvel, that such men durst affirm any such thing in those days. D. It is so: but the verity is of such power, that she constraineth her very enemies, yea the devils themselves, to confess her, but following our purpose, for so much as we have spoken of Popes, let us now come to the contrariety of Counsels. The Council of Nice, 
Hist. Tri. li. 2. c. 13. dist. 31 c Nicen. Plat. in. vita Silu. Dist. 28 cap. Si quis & dist. 30. Siquis virorum. dist. 31. c. Quoniam.  of whom we have already spoken, which was holden in the year three. C. twenty and three, did allow the Marriage of Ministers of the Church, and condemned those that would forbid it. The first Council of Sangres, holden in the year three hundred thirty and three, hath done no less: and did accursse all such as under colour of Religion, should leave their fathers, mothers and wines. The sixth Council of Constantinople, hath in like sort ordained that no man should make any vow to live without a wife, & that the Priests which should separate themselves from their wives, for their holy order's sake, should be excluded from the Communion. 
dist 27. c. Quidam.  The Council of Anticyre, holden in the year three hundred and four, hath in like sort permitted that Deacons should marry, yea even after that, they had received their orders. And as concerning the Council of Carthage, holden 
Ex Car. ●.  in the year four hundred twenty & one, in the which the heresy of pelagius was condemned by two hundred and seventeen Bishops, among whom S. Augustin was, it appeareth manifestly, by the twelfth constitution of the 
Apoc c. ● Extra de. Clem Co●, lib. 6. c. 1. Ep●p. li 2 Tom. 1. heres. 41  same, that the Bishops and other men of the Church were married. And Boniface the viii. did suffer the religious to enjoy their liberties, although they were married. The viii. Council of Tolletto, doth allow to break all vows and oaths which are made against the faith. And Epiphanius doth earnestly condemn those, who having not the gift of continency, had rather for shame of the world, to commit fornication and adultery secretly, then to marry. On the 
Albert. Craut●. in Saro. lib. 4 ca 43 Nawcler.  contrary, the Council of Neocesarie, holden the year three hundred and thirty, and the second Council of Carthage, holden the year four hundred and twenty, & after them the Council of Magonce, did condemn the Marriage of Priests and Ministers of the Church, & did wholly forbid it, and did bind the Priests, monks, and Nuns, to unlawful vows, impossible for men to keep, & were clean contrary to the word of God. This Council of Magonce was holden by the Emperor Henry the iij. in the which he assembled an hundred and thirty Bishops, Some say that the Pope Leo the ix. was there also present at it. It was also ordained in that Council, that men of the Church should keep neytheir hound, greyhond, spaniel, nor hawk, ne yet should use any secular traffic, and that none should be received for a Monk, unless he came of his own free will, and were of lawful age: but these Decrees have not been so well observed as hath the forbidding of Marriage. Likewise Gregory the seven. a Monk of Clunie, otherwise called Hildebrand, which was Pope in the time of the Emperor Henry the iiij. did command by his letters to Otto Bishop of Constance, 
Naucler. ●lbert. Crauts. Lambert Hirsweld  near about the year a thousand forty and seven, that he should forbid through out all his diocese all Priests to marry, which were not then married, and that he should dissolve the marriage of all such as were already married. T. I see in this no great accord. D. notwithstanding, all this was done, and not without great tyranny: ne yet without great resistance. T. I believe so.   

¶ Of the contrariety of certain Counsels, concerning the forbidding and difference of Meats.  
D. HEre is as much as I did determine to speak, as touching Marriage, let us now come to the forbidding of of meats. The second Bracarense Council, holden the year 
Di. 30. ca Si quis.  six hundred & nineteen, did acursse all such, as did abstain from eating of any meat, thorough superstition: and that which the Pope Martin held, did the like. The third Council of Tolede did accursse those that should forbid men to eat. And the Pope Eleutherius did ordain, that no man should refrain through superstition from eating of any meat that was agreeable with man's nature. On the contrary, the Roman Council, did forbid to eat flesh on the Saturday: and afterward that defence was extended further, as we see at this day, to Friday, Vigils, Imber days, and Lent. T. The Papists will reply against this and say, that by making of those statutes concerning the forbidding of meats, they do nothing against the ancient Decrees and Counsels, for so much as they do abstain neither for superstition, ne yet for any evil opinion, that they have of the good creatures of God, as did the ancient heretics, but only for abstinence. D. I understand it well, but if they do it for abstinence, how happeneth it, that they have on those days these kinds of meat, which are forbidden, in so great abomination? Why do they attribute to their abstinence so great merits? why do they not rather put difference in the quantity of the meat, then in the kind? which they do not at all. T. It is even so.   

¶ Of the Decrees of the Council of Constance, and Basle, touching the supper of the Lord under both kinds, and of the supremacy of the Pope, and of the romish Church, and of their contrariety.  
D. LEt us now proceed to other matters. The Council of Constance did forbid to administer, the supper of the Lord to the people under both kinds, to wit, of bread and wine, and the Council of Basle, did grant both the one & the other to them of Bohemia. But there is a more strange matter. That same very Council of Constance, doth evidently speak against itself, and against that of Nice, & of Aphrique, & the whole Church of the East and Aphrique. For it condemned that article of john Hus, to wit: That the Pope by the authority of the word of God, is not the head of the Church: & yet was it decreed in that same Council, that the Council was above the Pope, which thing doth very well agree with the sentence of S. Jerome, which saith, if there be question of authority, that of all the world is greater, than is that of one town, in like sort is the whole Church greater than one romish Church, and the Romish Church is not above the universal Church, but on the contrary, the universal Church is above the Romish Church. Now if the Pope have authority over all Churches, and that the Council doth represent them, it doth follow both that he is above the Council, and that he is not above the Council, contrary to the determination of the said Council of Constance, which is mingled with manifest contradictions. I leave a part that which they did define: That the Church was not the university of the predestinate: & that our good works must help to save us, as well as the grace of God. I speak not at all of the Decree that was made in the same Council, that men ought not to hold any promise, oath, or safeconduct, made or given, to heretics, which thing forthwith was put in use, not against heretics, but against the servants of God, which were there condemned for heretics, and were burned as heretics. T. Yet was this a general Council. D. It was so. T. I do not a little marvel that such matters could pass in a general Council, which the heathens would not have passed, but would rather, have judged it meet to keep promise, even with a man's very enemies.   

¶ Of the contrariety that hath been in many Counsels, concerning Images.  
D. IF I should allege the dissensions, that have been in diverse Counsels concerning Images, it would require 
Enti. de Re. Ro lib 23 Anton. Florent.  a long tyme. For Gregory the iij. decreed by his Council in Italy, that Images should be honoured in the Churches, and did revolt and caused Rome, and all Italy, to rebel against the Emperor Leo the iij. which was of contrary 
Auspurg. in thro'  mind. And afterward Constantine the v. son to the said Leo, did ordain the contrary in the Council of Asia, and Gretia, about the year seven hundred forty and six, at the which there were assembled thirty eight Bishops at Constantinople. Again Stephen the iij. Pope, condemned this Council of Constantine, by an other Council, which he caused to be holden at Rome in the Church of Laterane, by the Bishops of Italy and France. The which thing was done again by an other Council, in the time of Hir●ne, wife to Leo the iiij. After that, the Council of Nice (in the which the Greeks would have condemned the Images again) was enforced to break up, by means of the dissensions that there were, and through the practices of those that held for the Pope. Whilst these things were in hand in Grece, the Council Elibertin was held in spain, by twenty & nine Bishops, and thirty six Spanish Priests, which pronounced their sentences against Images: who were also condemned by the twelfeth Council of Tolede, and afterward for the Pope's pleasure, and for the French kings sake, they were again allowed by an other Council. T. Here was good stuff.   

¶ Of the Council of Carthage, concerning the Baptism administered by heretics.  
D. IT is no marvel since that the romish Popes have usurped tyranny over the Church, and especially sith the time of the Emperor Phocas, if that there hath been small reason to be found in any of the councils, but I will allege you others more ancient. It was concluded in the Council of Carthage (at the which S. Cyprian was present 
Euseb. 7. c. 5  with. lxxxvi. Bishops, to wit in manner with all the Bishops of afric, Numidie, and Mauritanie) that the Baptism administered by heretics, should have no place, but that those which had been baptized by them, should be baptized again. The which sentence was afterward condemned, as appeareth. Dist 5 quare.   

¶ Of the sentence and opinion of the Papists concerning the general and particular councils, and of the diversity of their decrees.  
T. THese against whom thou dost inveigh, will confess unto thee that the councils, yea the general Counsels, in that that concerneth the manners and discipline of the Church, have oftentimes determined diverse things without any prejudice of the faith, according to the condition & circumstance of the places, times and men, and such like. 
De consangui. & affini●a cap. non debet.  For this cause Innocent the third said. That it ought not to be judged a thing worthy of blame, if that according to the change of time, men's ordinances did also change, chiefly when an urgent necessity and an apparent commodity doth require it. For God himself hath changed diverse of those things in the new Testament which he ordained in the old. And therefore men may not rashly judge and say, that the councils are contrary the one sort to the other, although that in things concerning the policy of the church more than the faith, the one hath oftentimes changed: that the other hath decreed. For the lawful general councils, were never contrary the one to the other in any piece of the substance of our faith, which is necessary to our salvation. And in this sort must it be understood that S. Augustine hath said. The former councils have been amended 
August. Tom. 7. de baptis. cont donatist. li. ●. cap 3  by the latter: and that the ordinances and decrees of provincial councils, aught to give place to those of greater councils: but the Canonical Scripture doth give place to none. And as touching the Council of Carthage, it was no general but a particular Council, as Saint Augustine proveth against the donatists. And in deed they deny not but that particular councils may err: and that they ought to be reform by the general, as it is already declared.   

¶ Of the errors and abuses that have been brought into the church, what mean there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of such councils, when need shall require.  
D. THen they do confess, at the least, that the provincial councils may err, yea even those, in the which the most wise and holy men that were in the world since the Apostles time have been present. For S. Cyprian was one 
Euseb. 7. 5. cap  of the best learned men that hath been in the church since that time, and was of such zeal towards the word of God and his church, that he died a martyr for the truth of jesus Christ, And then judge you that if a Council in the which such personages were, might err: what we may think of many Idolatries and superstitions, and of many vain ceremonies, traditions and abuses that have been sowed in the church, not by councils and particular Synods only, but by particular men, who have charged the church to what so ever pleased them. For one hooded Monk or Friar had been sufficient to have invented a thousand manner of doings clean contrary to the Scriptures, and forthwith they should have been put in use, and allowed as if they had been articles of the faith. If it were lawful then to change those same very things which the general and lawful councils had decreed, concerning the policy and discipline of the Church, as touching their manners, according to the nedefulnes of the circumstances, and the capacity of men, of places and times: it ought then to be no less lawful to those unto whom God hath given the knowledge of his word to condemn and abolish so many abuses & innumerable errors, which by so many means and wrong ways, without order or ecclesiastic discipline have been sowed in the Church of the Lord: and are so intolerable, that the very greatest enemies of verity, even the Roman Antichrist have been constrained to confess it. And without going any further to prove it, did not the Pope Adrian confess, not many years since, that there were many enormities and inconveniences in the Romish seat, and many abuses, offences, and disorders in the government of the Church? And beside this, what confession did the Legates and orators of the Pope Paul deceased make, at the Council of Trent, of the estate of their church? But what wilt thou say if I do prove by S. Augustine that not only the provincial and national Counsels may be corrected by the great and general Counsels, but also even they themselves may be corrected the one by the others, the first by the last. T. If it be so, our adversaries should not then think it strange if we would not wholly dwell upon the authority of their councils. D. That same doth plainly appear by his writings, whereupon he declareth, when that same aught to be done and by what mean: To wit, that when by experience of things, that which was secret is opened, and that which was hidden is known, without any puffing up in pride full of sacrilege, without any swollen arrogancy, without any contention and envy, but with holy humility, with the universal Christian peace, he speaketh here generally of all councils, and of all that ever may be determined in them.   

¶ Of those that wait upon the Prelates of the Church, and would have them to correct the abuses that therein are: and what liberty every man had to sow and bring them into the Church: and what agreement & difference there is between the ancient Heathen Emperors, and the Popes, and their councils and assemblies.  
T. THey do not utterly deny but that there are some abuses and errors in the Church, but they say that it appertaineth not to every man to reform them: but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelate's of the Church, unto whom GOD hath given it. Wherefore, they think meet, to have a general Council, to determine what things should be observed, and what should be abolished, before that any thing should be changed or altered. D. The Seducers and false Prophets, which filled the church with errors, did not tarry a general Council to pour out their poison and to corrupt the Church of the Lord, but we must tarry for a Council to purge it: and in the mean time the poor souls shall go to the devil. Must we put the matter in question in a Council, whether we ought to believe that jesus Christ is God, and the very Son of God, and our only Saviour and redeemer? Shall we do as did the Emperor Tiberius, who put the matter in deliberaion in the Council at Rome, with the prerogative of his voice and the testimony of his consent, whether Christ should be accepted and received amongst the Gods, or no? Which thing he did for that (as Tertullian witnesseth) that the Romans had a very ancient law, by the which it was ordained, that there should 
apollo. 5.  be no God canonised by the Emperors, and that none should be so received, unless he were allowed and confirmed by the Council. For this cause jesus Christ was not received for a God, because it pleased not the Council: albeit that the Emperor was of contrary opinion. T. Then had not the Emperor so great authority in the Council at Rome, ne yet in his Empire as the Pope will challenge over the councils, over the whole church, over all Christendom, yea and over the word of god itself. D. It is true, and therefore I fear greatly that if jesus Christ were now to be received, he should be as far of from being received at the councils, in the which this Roman Antichrist doth preside, as he was then at that Council of Rome. For sith they do reject and disallow his doctrine, they do sufficiently declare what opinion they have of him. T. It can not be better known by any thing then by that, for that is a proof most sure.   

¶ Of the things which of themselves are already sufficiently resolved among all men, without looking for any resolution of the Council: and of the negligence and carelessness that is in us to put them in use, and to govern ourselves according to the same.  
D. IF they think him to be the very Son of God, and that his Gospel is the word of God, they need not to tarry for a Council to determine whether it shall be received and observed, or no, but would rather endeavour themselves to put in execution those things which are not in controversy, but are already agreed upon & resolved among all men, as well by the word of God, as by their own Counsels. Let them therefore correct their ignorance and beastliness, their negligence and slothfulness in the executing of their office, and their pomps and ambition, their insatiable covetousness, their execrable whoredom, with the number of those horrible vices which reign among them. For there needeth not any tarrying for that Council, to condemn or allow it, for it is already resolved. Why do they not observe the decrees of the Pope Alexander the third, of Gelase, of Nicolas the second, of the Elibertin Council of Tolede, of Carthage, of * Cabylone, of Chalcedonie, and of Laterane, which have forbidden to any, money or presents for the satisfaction of sins, for baptism, for the churches, for the Sacraments, and for the gifts of God: which ordained also that none should be advanced to any place in the church for money, ne yet for rewards: and that he should be held for Apostatike, and not for Apostolic, that should obtain the seat of Rome, either by money or else by favour? Why are not the poor nourished and clad, and also the sick and weak, by the Bishops, according to the ordinances of the Aurelian Council? Why do the Monks possess any thing in proper, contrary to the determination of that same Council? But all this is old and abolished, why may we not lawfully reproach them in that sort that jesus Christ did those jews, which sought to have him dead, because he had healed a man sick of the Palsy upon the Sabbath day: and yet left not they to violate and break the whole law upon the Sabbath day? And therefore he said unto them, did not Moses give you the law, 
john. seven.  and none of you observeth the same? Why do you seek to put me to death? They declared plainly by that what zeal they had to the law, and yet would they show as though they had a great care for the observation thereof, and chiefly in the pursuit which they made against jesus Christ. These good men do even the like, making a show as though they did greatly desire the reformation of the Church, and yet in the mean time there is no one piece of the word of God, Council nor Canon which they do not violate and corrupt, without giving order in any one thing. Now seeing that men are come so far, there needeth now but a Council to abolish the rest that remaineth: for who be they that shall hold it? Even those which have sowed, authorized, and allowed these errors and abuses. And yet will they glory that their law, and faith, with their whole religion is so well approved, that no one jot thereof aught to be called in doubt. It may be no more disputed of, then may the Alcoran of Mahomet among the Turks, but must be holden for fully resolved, what so ever they do approve or disallow.   

¶ What lihertie Christians have to reform the abuses that are among them, according to the power and authority which God hath given them.  
T. THey will confess that there are many things (as it hath been already said) which may be changed and abolished according as necessity shall require: as we have 
Acts. xv  example in the Council of jerusalem holden by the Apostles, as hath been heretofore declared. There were things that were ordained but for a certain time, which we observe not at this present, for we have not that occasion, unto the which the Apostles than had regard, now among the Christians none are offended to see men eat blood, or to eat of a strangled beast. D. Then if the Church having well considered the intent and end whereunto the Apostles did tend, have abolished in process of time that which the Apostles themselves did decree as touching the ceremonies, knowing that the ordinance did not touch at all any part of the substance of the faith, but that it was ordained only for a bond of peace, to keep charity, & to bear for a time which the infirmity & weakness of the jews: why may she not then more lawfully use her authority to abolish the idolatry, that superstitions & men's traditions, which are directly against the faith, charity, all good discipline & good order, & against the health of souls? And if it can not be done by a general consent of Christendom, why shall not they yet in their behalf employ themselves, which shall have best means to begin some good reformation? For if it have been lawful for a hooded fellow so boldly to set forth for the word of god, his dreams: shall it not then be lawful for a Christian prince, being accompanied with learned men that fear God, and good ministers of the Gospel, having the word of God for their guide, to reform the churches within their dominions & countries, according to the example of Ezechias & josias, and to purge them of so many intolerable 
iiii. Kings. xviii. &. xxiii  abuses, without tarrying any longer for the determination of a Council? But are not all Christian princes bound to do this? for so much as those which ought to procure it will not understand of it as they ought to do, but do enforce them by all means to hinder it that there should be none lawful, ne yet any thing concluded that were good. And therefore we ought not so to depend upon Counsels, be they particular or general, that we should not do our duty always, according to the graces & means which god shall give us. For we may not think the God is subject to the greatest multitude, for than would he not have spoken that which hath been already alleged in an other place: Thou shalt not follow that great number in evil, and thou shalt not dwell in any thing, because that many 
Exod. xxiii.  do it, to wander out of the way, and to pervert judgement. This were a great folly to imagine, if that we should think that all those which shall assemble to hold a council, be assured to shut in forthwith the spirit of God there: into that place where they shall come together, to have him at their pleasure.   

¶ Of the passages which the papists allege to authorize their councils, and of the true meaning of these same.  
T. THey do build upon this, that jesus Christ said: When you shallbe two or three gathered together in my name, I will be in the midst of you. Behold, I am with 
Ma, 18. 28  you to the end of the world: if he promise to be in the midst of two or three, by more apparent reason, ought we to believe that he is in the midst of a whole Council. D. But we must note upon what conditions he promiseth to be among them: First he saith, that if we do agree together upon the earth, if we be of one accord, of one consent, of one heart and of one spirit, if we be careful to keep unity of spirit through the band of peace, if we be one body and one spirit, as we are called into one hope of our vocation, as there 
Eph. 4.  is one Lord, one faith, and one Baptism, one God and father of al. And besides this, if we be gathered together in his name, to wit in his virtue and force, and not in the virtue and power of men, for his honour and glori, and not for ours, neither yet for our ambition for the edification of his Church and the health of poor souls, not for our profit & advancement, but wishing verity to have the victory, and not we: now let us see if it be easy to observe all these conditions, & what hope we may have in our time of a Council, that shall observe all these points, without the which in deed he can not be called a Council, but rather a synagogue of Satan, and can bring no commodity to Christendom, but rather hurt and destruction: how is it possible to have him such an one as he ought to be, considering that those which should procure it, fear nothing more than to have a Council such an one as he ought to be? T. It is easy to judge by that, that hath been already said.   

¶ How that the holy Ghost, is neither subject nor bound to any kind of person or estate.  
D. THere is yet one thing more, very well worthy to be noted, which is that our Lord jesus Christ, did not say, when a general Council shallbe gathered together, or all the estates of Christendom, or the Pope, the Cardinals and Bishops, or else a great assemble shall be had, I will be in the midst of them: but he said he would be in the midst of them, yea although they were but two or three, so that they were gathered together in his name. In the which he doth plainly declare, that he will be bound neither to men yet to estates, neither yet to the multitude: but how small so ever the number be, of what estate so ever the men be, he will be in the midst of them, provided that they come together as they ought to do. For all though the promise of jesus Christ, be made to his whole Church, yet doth it appartaine in no wise to hypocrites, false Pastors, and false Christians, which are not in any wise true members of the same, which is the body of jesus Christ: but are members of Satan, and of his synagogue. And therefore only must it extend, to the true members of the Church: among whom these things may be practised, which S. Paul setteth forth to the Church of the Corinth's, saying: let two or three Prophets speak, and let the rest judge. And if any thing be revealed 
i Cor. iiii.  to any other of the assistants, let the first hold his peace. There is no man but may easily understand, that this can not be observed, but in the true Church of jesus Christ, & among those that have the gift of the spirit of God, which is not given to carnal men, and strangers to Christian doctrine, but to such as are spiritual, and those which call upon the name of God in truth: for the spiritual man may judge 
●. Cor. two  of spiritual things, and not the carnal. how is Christ then in the midst of his, and doth assist them by his holy spirit, in so much as they are gathered together in his name, other wise he will be in no company, although the whole world were gathered together with all her pomp, if it be not assembled in the name of jesus, to such end as hath been already declared. We have a manifest example, by the small assemblies of the Apostles, and of the primitive Church, and by those of the great synagogue of Bishops, of Priests, of Scribes and Phariseis, and of the Counsels of the jews: for it is written of such, It shall be given to every man that 
Math. xx● Ose. iiii.  hath, and he shall become plentiful: but he that hath nothing, even that which he hath shall be taken from him. And in Ose, because thou hast refused the knowledge, I have also refused thee, to the end thou shouldest not sacrifice to me, and because thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. And therefore he saith, if you abide still in my word, you shall be my disciples, and shall know the 
john. xvii●  truth. Then he promiseth not to be among them, which by a false title shall be assembled in his name, to give new laws and ordinances to the Church concerning Religion, but to observe and keep those which he hath given, and to use the keys which she hath received of him, in such sort as he himself hath ordained. For the Church needeth none other laws, but even those which she hath received of him, and therefore 
math, 16. 1●  the Council of Gangers, hath accursed all those which continue not in the law of the Lord, and do daily make new ordinances. T. This is very reasonable, and doth well agree with that which is written of the Lord, happy are those 
Psalm. cxi●  which continue without spot in the way, which walk in the law of the Lord, happy are they which do inquire of the testimonies of the same. D. And therefore Christ doth say, search you the Scriptures, if any man do love me, he will 
john. v john. xiiii i. Tim. iiii.  keep my word. And S. Paul to Timothe, give attendance unto reading. T. These are very good advertisements.   

¶ What assembles the faithful do make, and of the ancient Decrees, concerning the celebration of Counsels.  
D. IF there were no question, but to hold Counsels and Synods among the faithful, which have professed the Gospel, and to gather them together to agree them, if they have any difference among them, as there was in the primitive Church in certain points, because the one did not well understand the other: it were but an easy matter, as it was for the apostles & their disciples: but that could not content the world. Such meetings and assembles are very good, to entertain the Churches in peace, and in the union of the doctrine, and of the Christian discipline, for that cause it was decreed in the v. Canon of the Council of Nice, that their should be yearly in every province two Counsels of Bishops, the one a little before Lent, the other about the Autumn, which thing is now no more observed in the Popish Church, then are other good thy age's, which have been ordained by the Counsels: all be it she do glory in them, yea in the most ancient, and that the Council of Antioch, chap. 20. and the Council Agathense, chap. 71. have also ordained and after confirmed. T. It were good holding of such Counsels: For in the mean time our adversaries & those which are out of the way, & strangers to the true Church of Christ, would do nothing but scoff and mock, as they now do, and would hold other Counsels, to condemn all that should be determined in the true Counsels, as the Scribes and Phariseis, the Bishops and Priests of jerusalem, did condemn all the doctrine of the Apostles, & of the Christian Church by there's.   

¶ Of the Counsels of the heretics, which did condemn the Counsels of the faithful.  
D. THat which thou sayest is no new thing: for in time passed the Council of Arrimine did condemn all that 
Hist. Tri. li. ●. c. 10. 21  was determined and agreed upon in the Council of Nice. And although it were a general Council, and had in it six hundred Bishops, yet notwithstanding it erred with Arrius, and did approve his doctrine, which before was condemned, by the Council of Nice. And albeit the Arrians sought nothing else, but to abolish the faith of the divinity of Christ, agreed upon at the Council of Nice, yet notwithstanding they would arm them, with the authority of the same Council, to cause the Confession of their faith, under that colour to be received, which they had made there clean contrary to that, which they there made, like very unjust and false men. And was not in manner, the like done at the Council of Philopole in Thrace, by the Arrians against the Council of Saraice holden in Illyrye? And did not the second Council 
hist. tri. li. 4. c 24 hist. Tri. lib 3. c 9 & lib. 3. c. 16, &. 34  of Ephese, also err with Eutiches and Dioscorus? T. And as touching the Council of Arrimine, thou knowest that it was divided, as was the Council of Seleucie in Isaurie, in the which a hundred and three score Bishops gathered themselves together against the Council of Nice: for the Arrians gathered them together on the one part, and the true and faithful on the other part. Moreover it is said, that the Council of Arrimine was not lawful, for so much as it was called against the mind of Liberius, Pope of Rome, by means of the heretics, who had on their side the Provost Taurus, which did so press and insist to the same, by prayers and by threatenings, by the commandment of the 
Hist. Tri. li. ● c. 36  Emperor, who favoured the Arrians. They say also that the simple Bishops of the West, were taken unprovided, and seduced by the deceits & subtleties of the heretics. And therefore after that they had well known them, they did retract that which was concluded at Arrimine. They say the like of the Council of Milane, holden by the commandment of Constance the Emperor, which was an Arrian, to procure the condemnation of Athanase, that worthy defender of the Christian faith: at the which Deonice, Eusebe, Paulin, Hilary, and divers others, were also chased from thence, 
hist. trip. lib 4. c. 10.  because they would not subscribe to his condemnation, neither agree thereunto. D. Thou mayest also well join to these the Council of Antioch, holden under Constantius the Emperor, an Arrian, with four score and ten Bishops: in the which Athanase was deposed from his Bishopric of Alexandrie, and condemned being absent to exile: in which exile, he continued as some do write, about vi. years, hidden in a cistern, without seeing the sun, which things were done chief at the procurement of Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedie, which ruled the Emperor Constantius, of whom before that time he had obtained a Council at Constantinople, against Alexander Bishop of that place, to constrain him to receive Arrius, or else to chase him from thence if he 
Hist. Eccle. lib. 10. c. 13.  did resist it. And the Council of Cypre, was it not holden for the pleasure of Theophile Bishop of Alexandrie, only to chase Chrisostome from his Church, & to have him banished, which thing he did obtain: having in deed seduced 
Hist. Tri. li. 10 a. c. 8 Vsque ad 18. Socr hist eccles. li. 9, c, 15, 21  Epyphanius, a man of great judgement and authority, to be served of him in so wicked an enterprise? And the Council holden in Sidone in the time of the Emperor Anastase, did it not condemn the Council of Chalcedonie? T. And the Council of Ephese of the which thou hast already spoken, was it not holden by the heretics, among whom Dioscorus did preside? Wherefore it was not a lawful Council, nor in a meet place. And therefore the Pope's Legates 
Niceph, in ●nast, hist. eccle. lib 2, cap, 2  & Ambassadors, would not be at it, but it was afterward condemned by the Council of Chalcedonie: Seeing then that these Counsels were not lawfully gathered, nor according to the ordinance of the holy Ghost, but were celebrated by heretics, it is no marvel although they erred.   

¶ How it doth appear by the contradictions, which have been in the ancient Counsels, that the Counsels may err, and how their conclusions, have in manner always been conformable to the opinions of those which have presided in them, or have been the strongest.  
D. NO more do I approve them: but all that yet hath been said of these matters, do confirm my saying. For we see plainly by that, that Counsels may err, and that they are not sufficient to appease the dissensions and troubles of Christendom, and to assure the consciences of men. For albeit that those same have been contrary the one sort to the others, yet notwithstanding they do all boast, that they were governed, and directed by the holy Ghost. There were also in them, men of great appearance of wisdom, of virtue and of holiness from all parts, to give them great show. They seemed to be gathered, in such sort as lawful Counsels ought to be, or at the least, they had ever one of them, which were esteemed the chief heads of Christendom, to call them together, since the Church hath had Emperors, Kings, & Christian princes: the authority hath been given them, to assemble the Counsels, because they had better means to do it, than others had, by reason of the power which God gave unto them. Which thing in deed was observed in all general Counsels, until the viii. that was holden in the time of the Emperor Basile, as it doth well appear, by that which is written in that same Council. Act. 5. And if there have been any holden, by the commandments of the Emperors, at the which the Bishops & romish Popes, or their Legates did not assist, than would the Popes also hold others by their authority without the Emperors, despising the authority of them, rebelling and making others to rebel against them, as hath been already said. And although the Pope julie the first, did greatly reprove (as Platina doth witness) the Bishops of the East, and chief the Arrians, 
Plat, in Iu●,  because that without his consent and agreement, they had holden a Council at Antioch, which he said they might not lawfully do, considering that the Romish Church was above all other Churches: notwithstanding the Bishops of the East were not without reason on their sides, to defend them with all against the arrogancy of the Pope, saying that there was greater reason, why the Churches of the East should have the pre-eminence, than the romish Church or any other of the Churches of the West, because the Gospel was brought from the East into the West, and that then the Imperial seat was not at Rome: now be it that the Counsels have been holden either at the appointment of Emperors, or Popes, or by the consent of both, the issue always hath been such as hath been the doctrine & religion of the Emperors & Popes, which have held them. For if they have been heretics, the conclusion hath been made in the favour of the heretics: if they have been faithful, they have concluded in the favour of the faithful. And if the heretics have found favour in some Counsels, where the Roman Popes have not been. The like have they done in those where the Popes have presided since they have attained to the see of Antichrist. Were not all those things very coombersome, and more apt to trouble the Church, and to offend the poor Christians, then to edify them? T. That is very cectayne.   

¶ How there is no hope that the Christians, shall ever have any lawful Council, and reformation in the Church, by the means of the Pope, or of any of his, if they bear any authority there.  
D. ANd if there should be held the best Council that were possible to be assembled in all the whole world, there is no doubt but that the Pope & his would condemn it. If it were not to their mind. For it is an impossibility, that it should both please them, and yet be a lawful Council. And to wait, that the Pope & his should provide for it, according as it is meet, this should be a great folly: we see the experience of their doings at this day in such matters, to be even wholly such as was that of the ancient heretics in time passed. For it is certain that the Pope will do nothing but for his own commodity, as it hath been already right well seen in all that ever hath been done by him & his, in these affairs. T. Show me wherein. D. Let us see if he have not always chosen apt & meat places to hold a Christian general Council, frank & free for all nations. Let us see what worthy Council there hath been holden even to this day, at Mantoa, at Vicence, at Trent, at Bologne. The Almains have desired a Council, & that an assemble might be had, they have presented the confession of their faith, they have offered to maintain their doctrine by the word of God: yet for all that they were never but always condemned and holden for heretics and schismatics with all their reason, diets, and councils, because they were not allowed by the holy Apostolic sea, nor signed with the mark of the beast. What is there then to be done? If there be a Council holden by the one sort, the other will condemn it. And on the other side: to tarry till all the contrary parties be agreed, as it were needful, that should be as far out of reason as to tarry until Herode and Pilate, Annas and Cayphas, the Scribes and Phariseis, the Saducees and Herodians, with all their whole synagogues should agree with the Apostles and the church of christ, whom they persecuted and followed to the death. Shall we tarry till this great king of Babylon the romish Antichrist, which beareth the three crowns in token that he is king of kings, which maketh his feasts and banckets to his princes & gentlemen, curtyzanes and whores, as did Balthasar the king of Babylon, do come, and throw down these three crowns, to take up the crown of jesus Christ? and that he will leave his pleasures and delights, and change them into the poverty of the Apostles? Shall we tarry till he and his (which drink the blood of poor innocentes in cups of silver & gold, which they have rob and spoiled from the temple of God) will deliver up the town of Babylon, and to make it subject to jesus Christ the king of kings, of whom they have stolen the titles, and occupied the Lordships? And that they will restore to the temple of God, and to the holy city jerusalem that: which they have stolen from them, and to shed their blood, to fight under his ensign, and to build up unto him his holy city and to render unto him his ornaments and vessels, whereof they have spoiled him? T. I believe that his meaning is far otherwise, and that he hath determined to get more, for he is not yet full. D. No, nor never will: but will be always more hungry and insatiable, he will never yield until the time that God himself do come and write the sentence upon the wall or furniture thereof, as he did to Balthazar the king of Babylon his predecessor, & until the time that he be beaten flat down by the sword of 
Dani. v  God, & Babylon taken & won: according to the destruction thereof foreshowed in the apocalypse. And so shall there never be any remedy, but they shall go on from evil to worse. 
Apoc. xviii.    

¶ What prayers all men ought to make for their princes, to the end that they may employ that power which God hath given them, to the aid of the people of God: what a blessing of God it is upon such people as have such princes.  
T. WHat is there them to be done in the mean while? D. It seemeth to me that I can not for this present give better council, than to will men first to pray unto the Lord, that he will first stir up for us good kings & princes, & to touch their hearts, as he hath already touched the hearts of Cyrus and Darius kings of the Medians & of the Persians, to make them to come 
●. Chro. 36 ●. Eso. 1  by the means of the true Ministers of jesus Christ, to besiege that great City Babylon, & to destroy that cruel beast, renouncing the mark of the same, which they have so long time borne, & to deliver the poor innocentes, and the poor people of God which are captive: & to take them from the burning furnace of Babylon, to the end the being without fear of our enemies we might serve jesus Christ our king, in all freedom of spirit. But this can not be brought by the sword, by arms, nor by man's power, but only by the cutting sword of God, which is in the mouth of jesus Christ, by whose breath the wicked & ungodly 
Apoc. xiii Esay. ●xi two. Thes. two.  shall be destroyed. Wherefore those people unto whom God hath given so great graces to have such princes and Lords: which employ their power which God hath given them, to the edifying of the holy city of God, & the ruin of Babylon his enemy, & do submit the temporal sword which they have received of God, to the sword of jesus Christ & his word, & employ it only to serve him: have good occasion to render thanks unto God for the great benefit which he hath bestowed upon them, & to pray unto him effectuously to conserve & maintain such princes, & daily to increase his graces in them, following the council of S. Paul in his exhortation which he made to the Christians, concerning that prayers which should be made in the Church. I do warn you then (saith he) that before all things men make request, prayers, supplications & render thanks for all men, for kings and for all others which aro ordained in dignity, to the end that we may lead a peaceable life in all fear of God, and honesty, for that is good and agreeable before God our Lord.   

¶ What Council they ought to follow, which have princes that are tyrants and enemies to the Gospel: and of the preparation to the cross for the same.  
T. THis Council is very good. But what sayest thou of them which in stead of such princes, have cruel tyrants, who being drunk with the cup of the great whore of Babylon, do persecute furiously the poor children of God, & do daily bathe their bloody sword in the blood of the poor sheep of jesus Christ? D. Let them pray heartily to God, that it may please him to appease their rage and fury, and that he will so change their hearts, that where they have been persecutors, they may become true feeders of the flock which God hath committed unto them, to save and defend them from the rage of that cruel beast, whose mark they have to long worn. In the mean time, because it is more to be feared that many of the Princes, Lords, and Magistrates, which have already tasted of the word of God, and laid hands to his work, should not lose their taste and wax cold, or should rebel against jesus Christ in process of time, than there is of hope, according to man's judgement, and the face which the world showeth unto us at this present, that those which resist the truth will embrace it, receive & maintain it: therefore it is very needful in these latter days the every man make ready himself betime to the cross. We have the experience hereof very plainly in many places.  
D. It is not to be marveled at. For Satan is continually most busted, about those personages that are most excellent. And also there is the corruption of our nature, and the favour or fear of men, which perverteth many. Therefore he that will be of the children of God, let him always have in his 
●ath. x. Luke. ix  mind these worthy sentences of jesus Christ & of his Apostles: Who soever will be my disciple, let him give over himself, & bear his cross continually after me, and follow me. 
two. Tim. iii. Acts. 14 john. 16  And again, who soever will live holily in Christ, he must suffer persecution. Again, men must enter into the kingdom of heaven by many tribulations. The time shall come that he which shall put you to death shall think he doth God service. For we should greatly deceive ourselves if that we should promise to ourselves in this world any rest and any estate or peaceable reign, abounding in all kind of pleasures & voluptuousues, and a continual peace, without any trouble or affliction. For we may not think that the kingdom of jesus Christ, is any such reign, for so much as his kingdom is not of this world. Therefore he that would have such 
john. 6. 19  an one, let him seek it at that hand of Antichrist: for his kingdom is in deed of this world. And further, when we are in this sort disposed, I know no better means, than to travail with all diligence to understand aright the will of God, by his word, and to amend our life according to the rule thereof: desiring him earnestly to give us true understanding, & a heart to follow the same, & then welcome be what he shall send.   

¶ Of the study of holy Scriptures, and of the decree which was made in the Council of Nice concerning the same: and of the excellency and authority of the Bible, and of his decrees.  
T. I Find your Counsel, & your resolution very good, & for my part it seemeth unto me, that you have spoken that which is the most sure, & our duty is to inquire with all diligence, & by all means of the will of God, by his holy Scriptures. D. It is the Council that jesus Christ himself giveth, which saith: Search you that Scriptures: let us follow the example of those of Beroa of whom it is spoken in the Acts of the Apostles. They 
john. v. Acts. xvii Rom. xiiii i. Cor. iii●  were not like to a rabble of obstinate persons, which will not hear at all: nor like unto a number of vain people, which lightly do allow all that ever is set forth unto them, without taking any deliveration, and not proving that spirits whether they be of God or no: For they heard S. Paul, & then they searched the scriptures, to see if it were so as Paul had taught. And when they saw that he spoke according to the Scriptures, they received his doctrine, as the doctrine of God. T. Here was a good order o proceeding. D. It is certain, for we must every one of us answer for himself in proper person, before the judgement seat of God, & not for others, nor yet by attorneys. Wherefore if others will not do their duty, but will tarry for a Council, let not us fail to do our duty & to follow better Council, if we may attain unto it. And if a Council be of value, why do we look for new councils? Why do we not cleave unto the old, which are holden long since, & aught to be of greater authority than the new? If we believe not & obey the ancient councils, why shall we believe & obey the new, let us rather obey the Council of Nice which did ordain that there should be none among the Christians but they should have Bibles, to learn in them the will of God: them to that in the which Antichrist & his Doctors have forbidden the common people to have them, & to read them in their natural tongues against the determination of the Christian Council. For the book of the Bible is the true book of the true and lawful councils, and of the eternal ordinances of God, wherefore S. Augustine not without good cause said, that the authority of the scriptures is much greater than all the understanding of man is able to comprehend & know, how subtle, fine and perfect so ever it be: with the which sentence S. Chrysostom agreeth well, saying that the Council may ordain nothing against the word of God: for what so ever 
Hom. de perfect. evang,  is ordained against the holy Scripture, is error.   

¶ Of the true Counsels which do excel all the rest in authority & are the rule by the which all the rest must be examined.  
T. THose which desire a Council, should consider in the same, what hath been ordained by that ancient councils, & by the holy Scriptures: to the end that men may know which is the true doctrine of the Church, & which men ought to embrace. D. We have very good mean to know it, and not to tarry at all for a Council. For among all the councils there are chiefly two of the authority, that all the rest are nothing in comparison of them, by whom all the rest must be measured: whose decrees are so plain, that there is no doubt in them but that every man that will be governed by them, may understand them: as it is needful for all those that will be saved. T. I did think there had been four general councils, to wit, that of Nice, of Constantinople, of Ephese, and of Chalcedone, the which S. Gregory confesseth to receive, allow, and honour, as he doth the four books of the holy 
Grego, i● Registr. di●inc 5  Gospel. D. I do also confess that these four were that principal of all those that were holden sith the Apostles time: but it seemeth to me that Gregory doth give unto them more authority than he ought to do in comparing them to the books of the four Evangelists. But what soever they be, the two of the which I speak, are yet much more ancient than are those, & of far greater authority, for God himself in proper person did there preside, & did speak with his own mouth, & did there show his presence in great majesty, and by great and excellent miracles & tokens. T. In what place and at what time were these councils holden? D. The first was holden in the Mount Sinai, in the beginning of the third moaneth, after that God had brought the people of Israel forth of the land of Egypt. The other was holden in the country of jewry, namely in the Mount Zion, in the City of jerusalem, at that time that our Lord jesus Christ was seen upon earth, and that he did accompany among men in the form of man, but they were called and assembled by other mean then the councils of the Papists, & holden in other sort.   

¶ Of the authority of the princes and of the Pope's concerning the councils: and of the Pope's tyranny in that behalf, and what advantage he hath at this present.  
T. Sing we are happened upon this matter of calling & holding of councils, I would be very glad if that thou wouldst declare unto me some little piece of the order that the papists do observe in holding of councils, to the end that I might the more easily understand if we should have as small hope in them, as thou hast. D. Thou dost ask of me a very hard thing. For how should I declare to thee that order of those which have no order? But the troth is that thou makest the matter somewhat the more easy, in that that thou requirest of me but a little. But yet I know not where to find the little that thou dost ask of me, if it be true which I have heard of men worthy of faith, which have been present & have seen the experience of it. Thou shouldest have spoken a great deal more aptly if thou hadst required me to declare unto thee the disorder: the which always they cloak in such sort, that it shall seem in deed to those that shall behold the manner of their proceeding, that they will observe the order that hath been used in the ancient councils, saving that the Popes do always seek to encroach not only upon the authority of Emperors, kings, & Christian princes, more than the ancient bishops did: but also upon the word of god, & the Church. T. In what sort? D. We have already showed how the ancient Emperors, kings, & Christian princes did accustom to assemble the councils: not always by tyranny, but by good accord & agreement with the good Bishops & the true pastors of the Church: now the Popes do not only take unto them authority over Emperors, kings, & christian princes, such as in time passed they were wont to have over the Popes & the other Bishops: But also when they have had the means. They have caused Counsels to be held of their own authority in despite of the Emperors & princes▪ when they did know that they could not have the Emperors and princes at their devotion: as we have already showed by example. But now in these days, because that the greatest number and the greatest princes of Christendom are much at the devotion of the Pope, they do more easily agree together in this point, them those which are of contrary religion▪ if there be any other which do not well agree with him, he maketh no great account of them, but esteemeth them unworthy of his Council. T. Hath he not reason so to do?   

¶ Of the manner of the proceeding of the Papists in their Counsels, and of their presidents, and of the prince's Ambassadors that are sent thither, and of their instructions, and of the practice of the Pope and his, and of the disputations that they have there.  
D. THe Council being appointed and called, if the Pope, the Emperor, the Kings and the Christian princes be not there present, they have then there their Ambassadors & Legates, to represent their persons, they have also their instructions, to lead them according to that y● every of them hath in charge: if that Pope be not present to preside, than his Legates do preside. These worthy men, before they come thither, do first ask, as it is meet for such Prophets as they are at the mouth, not of the sovereign god, but of the Pope their God upon earth: to understand of him how he will have them to conclude in the Council. For seeing that he is God, he hath also his holy spirit agreeable to his deity. And when they are in this sort well instructed of that will of their God, them go they on inspired with his spirit, & do put forth to the Council those articles which they have in charge from their God to propone, whose kingdoon & glory they have chief in recōmēdacion. When this is done, them they dispute of them in sun great haul and there those that will dispute are heard, not to find out thereby the truth, & to conclude according to the same, but to make a countenance to hold some form of a lawful Council, in the which it was accustomed to give audience to all that would come, as well of that laity as of men of the church, for the conclusion that shall be made, is already determined, in the secret Council of the God of the earth, which governeth that Council by his holy spirit: albeit it he remain still enclosed and hidden in the secret chamber of his breast and heart, and of his authorized Apostles, until the time convenient. Then his Legates which are the first borne of his children and creatures, declare the will of their holy father, and their God. T. Here is a goodly order of proceeding.   

¶ Of the prudence that is required in the disputations, of the Counsels of the Papists, and how dangerous it is, for those that behonest to be there.  
D. IN the mean time it behoveth those that dispute, to have good regard, in what manner and form they frame their arguments & silogismes, and how they propone their disputations. For if they do not conclude, according to the manner, form and shape of that conclusion, which is already made between the holy father and his Legates, or if they cast not their conclusion in the same mould, they will forth with give them to understand, that they are not seen at all in that Dialectica and Logic, which is required of them. Whereof it followeth that either their conclusions are despised, as those of vain men, which speak in the air, or else if they do somewhat press or touch the honour of that God, which reigneth in that same Council, the danger is very great, for those that shall make any such conclusions. For afterwards they must needs of force dispute with faggots, executioners, and fire. For that is the last refuge, whereunto these worthy pillars of mother holy Church have their recourse, & the God in whom they have greatest hope, to wit the God of the Chaldees and Persians: as we have seen by experience in the persons of john Hus, and Hierosme of Pragne, at the Council holden at Constance, about an hundred or six score years passed. For he that agreeth not to the conclusion of that Antichrist, and of his spirit, the same doth sin against the holy Ghost, wherefore the sin is not to be forgiven, & there may be neither Pardon, nor Indulgence found, whereby to purge the Church, saving only by fire. T. Surely here is a goodly proceeding, and very meet for the Vicar of jesus Christ and his Apostles.   

¶ Of the resolutions and conclusions of the Papistical Counsels, and what personages they are that have voices in them: and what school masters the Bishops have there, & what order they do there observe.  
D. NOw when the disputation is ended, they must needs come to the resolution and final conclusion: which is not done openly, nor by the consent of all, but is done in the Conclave, in a secret place, where none are admitted to come, but the Pope's Legates, the patriarchs, the Bishops, and the generals of the monks. These do there conclude what soever pleaseth them, without having any regard at all to any thing, that hath been debated of, in the Council, but to that, whereunto every one of them pretendeth, & those who have sent them thither. And for so much as the greatest part in manner of the Cardinals and Bishops, that do there assemble together, to make up a number, are oftentimes but well fed and fat beasts, shod and horned, & fat Asses, & Mules laden with benefices, they must have some keepers & Muletters to govern and to direct them. And because they are in such matter much like unto little children, they have need of school masters to instruct & teach them, & to supply their ignorance. T. And who be those Ass keepers & muletters that thou speakest of? D. They are often times a certain number of hooded Moonckes, and belly divines, which often times are in manner as ignorant as their scholars, & as veri Asses, & Mules as the Asses & Mules that they govern & lead, saving that the one sort is more heavily laden than the other with benefices, & that the one sort have a little more sense & knowledge, & the others more farms & Lordships, but their consciences are all one. T. Then are these men to the Cardinals & Bishops, in stead of the holy ghost, by whose inspiration they speak, being instructed by them. D. It is true: but this holy Ghost, is but a little portion & a dependence of the universal spirit of the holy father, of the which the Legates are filled. For all these hooded belly divines, pretend none other thing, but to fish for some Mitre, Cross, some good be nefice or fat prebend, wherefore they are there as kitchine dogs, waiting for some soup. These are the dumb dogs of whom the Prophet Esay doth speak. T. Then 
Esay. x●●.  they do not greatly care whether they do bark at the wolf and bite him: or no. D. They are not there for any such purpose: for their being there is only to flatter, to please and to procure their worldly honour and profit, and to have their portion of the pray which those wolves do get. And therefore they teach the Novices to set their sail according to the wind which they seedoth blow, and according to the spirit by the which they know that the Legates are governed, & those who sent thither both them, and the Bishops, to the end that there might be there agreement of spirits, & that all those particular spirits might agree & resolve with that universal spirit which doth there preside, wherefore they have not at any time so great dissension and division, but that they may well say in their conclusions: It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us, to wit that holy Ghost, which presideth over them.   

¶ Of the matters of discord that may be in the Counsels of the Papists: & of the causes of the agreement that is among them: & how dangerous it is for those that do maintain the cause of the truth.  
T. I Think for all that they have not always the best agremen: of the world among them. D. If there be any discord of opinion among them, it is not commonly for any matter that concerneth the honour of God, the edification of his Church, & the salvation of the Christian people: but rather for their ambitions and honours, pre-eminences, benefices & particular affairs. For in manner all those that come thither, are assured the one of the other, and there is nothing in the world that they have less care for: then for God, & for the honour of his Church, and the salvation of their own souls, & of the Christian people, wherefore in this respect they fear not one an other. For there are seldom any other there, but Scribes & Phariseis, Saducees & Herodians, Hypocrites and Epicures, gluttons & drunkards. Whoremasters & Sodomites, Players & Hunters, with such like, very ignorant in divinity, & of very filthy and detestable life, & should be all excommunicated, & accursed and deprived from their offices, if they should be judge according to the rigour of the ancient Counsels, & of their own decrees, which do excommunicate 
Ex council Carthag Dis. 23. Qui Episcopns, dist, 24, c Nullu●,  & accursse & also judge all such men unworthy, of any Ecclesiastical office. And if there be any other, they are very thin sown. There are very few among them, that are accounted for heretics, as was joseph of Aramathie in the Council of the jews, because that he would not consent to the death of jesus Christ. And if that by adventure there be any one, from whom their happeneth any little word to escape, better 
Higher, in Mich, dist 3, c. eccl, 5 Luke. xxiii. john. seven  than from the rest, how little so ever it smell of the smoke of the truth, y● man that shall have pronounced it, shall be received among them, as Nicodemus was amoong the jews, how little a word soever he speak in the favour of jesus Christ, he shall be in great danger either to be banished from that holy company, & deprived from his benefices, & that at the least, or else if need be: he shall be in danger of the fire: or else to swallow certain pills of a very hard digestion, which shall much annoy his stomach and cause him to lose his voice. And I know that there are in the world Godly men, who can testify in deed, how they have wrought in such matters, not many years passed, and can say of all that hath been done even to this present in the Council of Trent, but how so ever it be, if they can not easily agree in their Conclave, and that there be any one that will not forthwith & frankly agree to that which that holy father will have concluded there, the Legates dare boldly say to such as shall stand against it: Conclude as you list, but the matter shall pass in that sort: as it is said that the Cardinal of Monte (which is now remounted by means of the Papacy, and called Pope julie) did lately at the Council of Trent. And because he was so faithful a Legate, and that he hath not only in that, but in all other things showed himself, worthy of the seat in the which he now sitteth, it hath framed better with him then with others, which have been esteemed men, of to much honesty to be in such a company, of whom some have been glad to flee, and others have had given them for their recompense, drogues of very hard digestion.   

¶ Of the practices of the Pope, to have the determination and conclusions of the Counsels, and the places wherein they are holden, at his will and commandment.  
T. HEre are very dangerous practices. D. There are yet more, among the which there is one chief that helpeth to bring the conclusion to what pass so ever they pretend, which is not unfitting nor unmeet for their purpose. T. Which is it? D. It is that if the holy father be advertised, that it is to be feared that such conclusion as he would have should be hindered (albeit that be not much to be feared, considering that which hath been already spoken) he will forthwith make new Bishops as many & more than shall need, to cause the matter to pass more surely on his side, he will take simple Curates, Chapellains, & simple Mooncks, & he will make them Bishops in haste, the one of Nazareth, the other of Hebron, that other of Beethlen, & the other of an other title, & all without any Bishopric, they shall come as thick as flies, to make a number of voices: & they shall have pensions & wages of two or three crowns a month, as scholars or soldiers, to entertain them, there during the Council. And if the place be anything suspected & not fit for his purpose, & that he have a desire to have the Council put over to some other place, which may be more for his purpose, he will have immediately ready some well learned Physician if need require, who shall have his ready framed reasons, to show how that the air is not good in that place, but it is dangerous to such as shall continue long there, & that it shall be better to appoint some other place, as it was practised not long ago. T. By that that I can understand, all is done there of purpose. The whole is nothing else but a very Comedy or play, in the which the blind are set upon high scaffolds, to lead the blind, & to play their part, according to their scroll & cedule, which is given them. D. Behold here their manner of working.   

¶ Of the ignorance of the Popish Bishops, and how far they are of from that, that the word of God and the ancient Canons require of them.  
T. I Find it very strange, that the Bishops, which be there assembled, as leaders of the blind, & reformers of religion, to direct and instruct the poor Christian people, have need themselves of school masters, & other blind guides, to lead them. D. This doth not agree with that name of a bishop, which they bear 
Acts. xx  the which admonisheth them that their office is to be watch men over that Lords flock. It is not according to that admonition, which S. Paul giveth them, saying, take good heed to yourselves, & to the flock, over the which the holy Ghost, hath appointed you watchmen & keepers, to govern & feed that Church of God, which he hath purchased with his blood. T. They have their worthy answer ready for that: to wit that they be not Bishops of that time, nor such as they were to whom S. Paul spoke in this passage: and that they are not appointed by the holy Ghost to fede the flock of jesus Christ. D. In that thou sayest very truth: for they are feders & Pastors only to feed themselves, as were the false Pastors of whom the Lord complaineth by ezechiel. 
Exec. iii  Wherefore they need no great knowledge, nor yet to observe the Decrees & Canons of Pope Hilary the first, of Alexander the two. of Innocent the vi. of Boniface the three of Gelase, & of Zozine, which have ordained that none should be receined into any such office, unless he were very wise & known 
Plat. in vis. Innoc. Rom. Que. 16. dist 36. c. illiterato: &. c. Qui eccle.  to be of good life & doctrine, and that benefices of the Church should not be given, under pain of cursing, neither for favour nor gifts, nor to any other, then to men of such learning and life as is required for such offices, and that the sheep of Christ must be kept by their own Pastors, and not by hirelings and Vicars. T. We should find a great number accursed, if such Decrees should take place.   

¶ Of the final conclusion and resolution of the Council of the Papists, and the solemnity of the day whereupon it is done.  
D. BUt we have left the best of the play untouched, which afterward is turned into a Tragedy: to wit, the Session's, in the which that declaration of all the conclusions which they make in the Conclave, is openly published in the Church. T. I pray thee them go thorough & make an end of the play. D. The day whereon this is done, all they of the town where they are gathered to Council, must make a feast. The Cardinals and Bishops do assist all there, in their sieges & seats, clothed with their robes, & decked as it were bridegrooms. For it is there that the play must be played in deed. And for so much as they have had from else where before that time, & not from thence, the inspiration of their holy ghost, & that they be already resolved in that, that they go about, they do not then at all call for their belly divines & hooded men, whom before that time they had for their school masters, but in such sort as they call the rest of the hearers: for there they need them not. notwithstanding this, to the end that they may give all men to understand, that the determinations which they have brought thither, already framed by them without the spirit of God, before that ever they came thither, do proceed from God, and from his holy spirit, they begin with invocation of him, to wit with a fair blasphemy, to oultrage the grace of him, and to renounce jesus Christ our Lord, by whom it is given, for they sing a fair Mass of the holy Ghost, with such ceremonies and so great mockeries, and foolish toys, that the little children would be ashamed to see it. For the Mass must be Episcopal, now there are many mysteries and ceremonies in such Masses, more than in those that are song by simple Curates and Priests. There is there also harmony, chanting, and great store of Music, even as there was in the solemn feast holden at Babylon, by the commandment of Nabuchodonosor, to cause his great golden Image to be honoured. There is also a gay and pompous procession, in the which all the players, that play in that play, are clothed and disguised according to the parts that 
Dan. iii  they play. Then do they cry out for the holy Ghost (with whom they would not have to do notwithstanding) with very great desire Veni creator spiritus: to the end that he may come and inspire them, to do that which is all ready done, when this is done, every man's opinion is asked, of those things which are there proponed. Upon the which every man playeth his part, according as he hath learned it, and answereth according to the conclusion, which is all ready made. Those which have better memory than the rest, and do trust thereunto, pronounce their sentence by heart, the others reed it according as it hath been given them in writing, in the cedules that their school masters, and instructors have made for them. In the which often times there happeneth great inconveniences. For there are some that have so gross heads, and have so evil studied their roll, that they are marvelously troubled to reed it a right. And often times it is seen that diverse of them have one kind of Billet, for so much as one school master hath made them all, & hath given very one theme to his disciples.   

¶ Of the order that the Bishops do observe in giving their consent in the Counsels: and of the end, and of the curses of the same.  
T. IF the worst happen, it can not be denied but that there is great unity of spirit among those men, for so much as they speak all by one spirit. But is there nothing else? D. Those that will make no long discourse, are discharged by one word of two syllables, and a bowed down head, to understand placet, which signifieth, it pleaseth me: For if there were one syllable more, which should be displicet, signifying it displeaseth me, the answer would be very perilous. When this is concluded, the holy ghost, without whose council they have determined and done all that ever they would, and whom they have grievously offended and blasphemed, hath notwithstanding determined and concluded all those things, according to their sayings. Wherefore they must be accounted even as though they had proceeded from the mouth of God. And if there be any one that will say against it, he is excommunicated, anathematised, and accursed. Therefore, when their sentence and final conclusion is in this sort published, they then frame the form of their excommunications, anathematisations, and cursignes, wherewith they thundder and lighten horribly against all their enemies. And not being contented with that, to the end that their thundrynges and lightnings should not seem to be without virtue and force, men must come to fire and weapons, to maintain and defend these holy determinations. T. This manner of proceeding is very meet and worthy of such men as do embrace it. D. Yet notwithstanding it is the very manner & order that they do observe at this present. For it must needs be that after this feast of Nabuchodonosor, the furnace must be warmed also. T. Then I do not greatly marvel, if that Christendom receive final fruit of such counsels, if they be held in none other sort, there is no great hope to be had of them. D. And good cause why, for their holy ghost is to much burning, and of fire greatly different from him that was sent to the Apostles, upon the day of Pentecost. T. Therefore I am well 
Acts. two  content that we leave them, & that we speak of that council of the which we began to talk, and let us see what order was there observed, without any more beholding that Tridentine play, so magical & bloody. D. It shall be the best. T.  that thou art of that opinion, I will not suffer thee to be long at rest, before I return to thee, to hear thee speak of so worthy a matter. D. I trust by the help of God, it shall not be all together without fruit.     


¶ The sum of the. 4. Dialogue entitled the resolution of the Counsels: to wit, wherein the final resolution of all Christian Counsels, and of Christian doctrine is had.  
ALbeit that the little titles which I make of the principal points which are entreated of in this Dialogue, may sufficiently advertise the readers of those matters that are therein handled, & of the fruit that may come thereof: yet notwithstanding I have thought it good to advertise them in the beginning of every Dialogue, of the effect of every of them, comprehending in general the which afterward is debated of in particular. Concerning this present Dialogue, I do declare in it in what sort god gave his law to his people, by his servant Moses, & to what end, & how it ought to be used, & what council he held by mean thereof in the mount Synay, & what things ought to be considered therein. And after that I do show in what sort this general Council doth lead us unto the other which followeth, being holden & celebrated in the mount Zion & in jerusalem, & how those counsels contain in them all such doctrine as is necessary for the church of God. Wherefore I have named it The resolution of the Counsels, wherein there is also spoken of the difference & agreement that is between the old & new testamennt, the law & the Gospel, & of the ministry of the one & the other, & of the diversity and of the usage of the laws given by Moses. & of his office, and of jesus Christ.   

❧ The fourth Dialogue entitled, the resolution of Counsels.  

¶ Of the charge which God gave to Moses, and of the authority of the law by him given, and of the whole doctrine of the patriarchs and Prophets.  

Timothe.  
Daniel.   
I Am even now newly come from reading the second book of Moses, in the which he hath written of this matter, for the which I do now come to thee: here resteth no more but that thou instruct me of some principal points of the doctrine how I might make my profit of them, and daily to increase in the knowledge of the authority of this great and general Council, to the which thou dost refer me. D. All be it that I doubt not at all, but that thou hast made prayer unto God, before thou comest to me, to the end that he might grant grace both to thee and me so to handle his holy word, that it might be to his honour and glory, and to our health, as we ought always to do, when we take in hand so holy a work: yet for all that it shall be very well done, that we both together do call upon him, before that we proceed any further in this matter. T. That is very reasonable and meet. D. The Lord for his mercy's sake hear our prayers. But to our purpose whereof we spoke before, thou must first note, that God himself gave charge to Moses to call the people together, of whom he had ordained him Pastor and leader, & was served by him in that vocation and ministry, as of his legate and ambassador. And albeit that God had already sufficiently authorized the ministry of Moses, by the great tokens and marvels which he had done by his hand, in the presence of all the people of Israel, as well in Egypt, before their coming out of it, as in the wilderness after it: Yet notwithstanding it pleased him not to speak at that time unto them by his own servant and Ambassador Moses, as before time he was wont to do: but would himself in proper person speak in the presence of all the people, and would that the ears of them all should hear his voice, by the which he gave the ordinances, determinations, decrers, and Canons of this great Council, whereof we have already spoken in the first place. For the doctrine of the law is an understanding and knowledge of the will of God, which is as it were borne with man in his creation, in so much as God hath printed it in his heart, and hath endued him with that grace, as with others wherewith he hath endued him, when he did create and make him to his image and likeness. But forsomuch as it hath been greatly darkened and blotted by means of sin, which afterward came into the world: we must of force come to the understanding and knowledge of the Gospel, which is not natural, as is that of the law, nor of the benefit of our first creation, as is this here: but of that of the regeneration, redemption, and justification, which is revealed unto us by the son of God, who brought it unto us from the bosom of the father. Therefore thou mayest see here plainly, who was the author and Precedent of this Council, and from whom this doctrine which is brought unto us to be the rule to try all other doctrine by, which should be set forth unto us in the name of God, is proceeded. For seeing that God by this mean did avow Moses to be his servant, and for his Prophet and lawful Ambassador: we may be out of doubt that that law and doctrine which he brought, is of God: wherefore we may assuredly receive and esteem it not for man's doctrine, but for the doctrine of God. And for somuch as that doctrine which hath been authorized and allowed in this Council, by the authority and the very mouth of God, is that same doctrine which in time past all the holy patriarchs did hold and observe, even from the beginning of the world, and that veri same also which since hath been embraced and followed by all the holy Prophets and true servants of God: there is no doubt, but that all the doctrine which the Church of God hath followed, even from the beginning of the world, and hath always been entertained and continued in the same, by the ministry of the patriarchs and Prophets, hath been by that same mean authorized, allowed, and ratified. T. For so much as it is one very doctrine, there is no doubt but that the approving of the one, is also the approving of the other.   

¶ How that the allowing of the doctrine of the old Testament, is also the allowing of that of the new: and how the new expoundeth the old.  
D. ANd albeit that that same which our Lord jesus Christ hath brought us from heaven, and that it hath been declared to men, as well by the ministry of him, as by that of his Apostles and Disciples, and of their successors hath been again authorized and approved in a far more excellent sort: yet standeth it so notwithstanding that the allowing and ratifying thereof doth agree with that of the doctrine of the patriarchs and Prophets: for Christ 
Roma. x. Ephe. two Act. 2.  and his have taught nothing contrary to the same, but have approved and accomplished it. For this cause Saint Paul doth call Christ the end, the performance and fulfilling of the law, and the foundation or ground work of the Prophets and Apostles, & for that cause he speaketh plainly before Agrig●a saying, that he hath taught nothing, but that which Moses and the Prophets did teach before him. Likewise our Lord jesus Christ did often times refer the jews to the testimony of Moses, saying that he had 
john. v,  witnessed of him, and did send and commend them to the scriptures, as it hath been already declared. Moreover this agreement of the law & of the Prophets with jesus Christ, 
Math. 17. Luke. 1●.  hath been declared in his transfiguration, in that that his Apostles did see him with Moses and Elias, & also when he opened the hearts of his Disciples going to eman's, he did allege the testimonies written of him in the law, in the Psalms and Prophets: we may then easily understand by this, that even as the Prophets, which were sent from God after Moses, were as it were expounders of the law, and of the doctrine which he had set forth to his Church, as well by him as by the patriarchs which were before him: even so our Lord jesus Christ and his Apostles have been the very true expositors of all the ancient doctrine, & those by whom the last determination of all the doctrine of salvation hath been set forth and declared to the Church. T. I know it certainly so to be.   

¶ Of the causes for the which God did allow and confirm with such authority the ministry of Moses: and how hard it is to bring men under those laws, by the which men's lives ought to be governed and directed.  
D. Sing then it is so, and that God would even at once give such testimony of his heavenly doctrine, and of the ministry of all the Ministers by whom he would have it declared to men: it is no marvel if his good pleasure were once to show himself in such majesty, unto such a company, to the end that no man might justly afterward take occasion to doubt of that doctrine of God, and to reproach Moses, as if he had framed these laws of his own head, which he had brought to the people of Israel, and that he should have made them believe that he had received them of God, as many Heathen lawmakers have made theirs to be believed, and as many false Prophets have done of their drcames and false doctrine. For they did well know, that men were of such nature, that they would not willing  become subject, but only unto him whom they thought to be greater than themselves: wherefore hardly will a man make himself subject to a man, to live according to his will and pleasure, if he be not thereunto enforced. If it be done but by constraint, it is but during the time that he is the weakest. For as soon as he can find any occasion to cast that yoke from him, he will not miss to do it with all his power. T. We see daily experience sufficiently of this. For how can one submit himself willingly unto a man, whom he esteemeth to be his fellow, and equal to himself, and not his master and superior, when he will not willingly submit himself to God his Creator, his Master, his Lord and Sovereign Prince, ne yet unto his laws? D. Thou mayest have a judgement by that: but albeit that man will not willingly yield himself subject, neither to God, ne yet to men: Yet notwithstanding if he must needs have a Lord, and to live according to the will and mind of an other, and not of himself: yet is his heart so cruel and stubborn, that he thinketh it greater dishonour to submit himself to such as he is himself, then to his superior, and to man, then to God. On the other side, whatsoever darkness is fallen into the understanding of man, by mean of sin, yet for all that there remaineth a certain impression of the knowledge of God, in the heart of man, which compelleth them all to acknowledge that there is a sovereign and divine power, unto the which it must needs be that every man be subject, will he, nill he, and that this sovereign power, is God eternal. Wherefore there is none, how wicked so ever he be (if he be not at all more brutal than the brute beasts) that is not somewhat moved when the authority of God is alleged, and that feareth not punishment, when it is given him to understand that God hath commanded or forbidden that which is proponed, if he say or do the contrary: & chief when we have a good opinion, & that we think well of them that speak unto us. T. It is very true.   

¶ Of the feignings and subtleties that the Pagan la makers, and the false prophets have used, to authorize their laws and doctrine, under the cloak of God's name.  
D. FOr that cause Zoroaster the lawmaker of the Bactrianes and Persians, gave them to understand, that he had received of the god Oromasis, those laws which he gave unto them. Lycurgus the Lacedaemonian law giver, did the like, fathering his upon the god Apollo: & Minos the law giver of the Cretians, which now are called Candians, did feign to have received his of the god jupiter. Numa Pompilius for the like cause, did feign himself also to have conference with the Nymph and goddess Aegera, and that he received of her the laws which he gave to the Romans, chief those that touched the religion. ●amolris the law maker of the Scythiens, hath also reported his to be of the goddess Vesta. And Mahomet, by whom the Turks have been seduced, which have had partly their original from the Scythyans, how many finesses he hath used to authorize his Alcoran, and making them believe, that it was sent from heaven? And all the false Prophets and seducers have not invented a little. And the Romish Antichrist, companion to Mahomet, hath not he observed the same order, not only to give so much authority to his traditions, as to the word of God, and to cause them to be received for the word of God: but also to make himself judge of the holy Scriptures, and of their meanings, under shadow of the promise which jesus Christ did make to 
john. 14. 15. 16.  his Apostles, to send unto them the holy ghost, and to direct and govern his church by him, as though that: which is spoken of the true church of jesus Christ, and of the Ministry thereof, did appertain to that Antichrist and to his Ministers? Their conclusion is even as good, as if a man would conclude in this sort: The holy ghost was promised and given to the patriarchs, Prophets, & to the true Church of Israel, that therefore it must follow that jerobo am and his Priests, and Achab, jesabel, and their false prophets were inspired and directed by the spirit of God, and Annas and Cayphas, the Scribes and pharisees, and all the council, and the synagogue of the jews, which did condemn jesus Christ and his Apostles: & that Micheas, Elias, jesus Christ, and his Apostles, which stood against them, being so small a number, against so great a multitude, were heretics. For these men had the Kings and Princes on their sides, and did supply the place and seat of the true patriarchs and prophets, unto whom, and by whom the promesses were made by God, and were in deed of their own race and blood. All be it that the Pope hath no such colour as they had, he hath notwithstanding armed himself with the authority of God, as they did. For he did well know, that if men had not had such persuasion of him and of his doctrine, he and his should never have grown to such authority, as they are come unto. T. That is not to be doubted.   

¶ Of the testimonies that God hath given to Moses of his vocation, and how necessary it was.  
D. Now it is not so with Moses, as it is with these men: for Moses was not only avowed by God by word, and by his own authority, but God did give unto him letters and seals: and this not only once or twice, 
Exo. nineteen.  but often times. And to the end that he would leave the les occasion to doubt, either of the letters or of the seals, he came in proper person to ratify all that by his own mouth: and that not in secret, or else before two or three witnesses only, which notwithstanding aught to have some authority, but before the eyes of all the people, which were in no small number. For before that time in their coming out of Egypt they were about six hundred thousand men, valiant 
Exod. xii  and able to wear weapons, beside the women and children, and a great number of other people. T. Then was there a great number of witnesses. D. Yea, and that of such witnesses as did see the thing with their own eyes, and did hear it with their own ears. If Moses had come to the people, and should have said that God had spoken to him and that he had given him the law, which he presented to the people in God's name, there is no doubt but that he should have found mockers and evil speakers, and a great number of rebels and Mutineers in so great a people, to have scoffed at Moses, and to have mutined & rebelled against him, saying that he had been a liar, and a crafty and deceitful man, which would cover himself with the name & authority of God, to erect a tyranny over that people, and to deal with them according to his pleasure. T. It is not unlike by that that happened, after that this was done: for if Core, Dathan, and Abiron with their adherentes (which 
Numb. xvi  were themselves witnesses of all these marvels, by the which God did authorize the ministry of Moses) durst to conspire and rebel against Moses and Aaron, and did find such a number of followers, after such an authorizing of their voeation: what would have become of them, if that God had not so armed them with his authority?   

¶ Of the declarations and advertisements that God did give to the people of Israel, before he gave them his la by Moses.  
D. ANd therefore God did first command Moses to declare unto the people the works which he most marvelously had done, as well in the land of Egypt, as in the 
Exod. nineteen  going forth out of the same, by the which he did show his great power, in overthrowing the force of the Egyptians, through his wrath, and delivering his people from their tyranny through his mercy: to the end that they might the better understand of what power he was to punish those which should rebel against his law, and to show mercy unto those that should submit themselves thereunto: and how worthy he was both to be feared and loved, and in what reputation they ought to have his servant Moses, by whose hand he had done these great works, and afterward to cause his people the more to love him, & the better to encourage them to hear his word, & to obey his law, he doth renew the ancient promises, which were made to them and to their fathers, and more strongly doth confirm and establish them, declaring unto them the great honour, the great profit, and the great wealth that should happen unto them, if that they did obey their God, & serve him, according to his will and law. After that he had made all these declarations, he then gave them to understand how he was determined to show himself, and to speak unto them, and to give unto Moses in their presence his law, according to the which he will be honoured and served, and then he declareth the cause and the reason why he will do it: To the end (saith he) that the people do hear whilst I speak to thee, and also that they believe thee for ever. T. These are godly admonitions.   

¶ What tokens God gave of his presence in the mount Synay, when he did give and publish his la.  
D. IT cannot then be said hers, that these things were feigned, and that Moses did unjustly make them believe that God did speak unto him, and gave him that law 
Exod. xi●  which he brought to the people, and yet that there was no such thing at all. For the people did see the cloud in the which God spoke unto Moses, to declare thereby his majesty: To wit, that he is the chief King and Prince of heaven and of earth, unto whom all creatures must obey. And forsomuch as God doth more manifest his presence, his glory, his power, and his majesty, in the heaven & in the air, then in any other of his creatures, he took the clouds for to declare his majesty and sovereignty that he hath over al. But he was not yet contented with this, but before he would descend into the mount Synay, in the thick & dark cloud, he caused the thunder to burst out in a marvelous sort in the air, whose cracks were heard all over, & made a horrible and a fearful noise. He did also send forth the great lightnings, in such sort, that at the air was lighted and was filled with great fires, which were seen in all places very terrible. On the other side, the people did see all the Mountain in a smoke, as it had been of a great fire, or of a burning furnace. They heard also the cornet and the trumpet found, which did ring with a marvelous violence, & made a very fearful noise, in such sort, as there was neither great nor small that was not wonderfully afraid, & did not tremble with great horror, and was not as it were half dead for fear. All that while the whole mountain was covered with the great cloud, in the which God spoke with a mighty voice in the hearing of all the people, and did pronounce from his own mouth the very same words which he had written with his own finger in the two tables of stone, the which Moses did afterward bring down from the mountain of Synay, and of the talk which he had with God in the same hill.   

¶ Of the signification of the signs which God did give in giving his la, and of the reasons why, and how much they are agreeable with the nature of the la.  
T. WHat was the meaning of all that? for it was not done without cause. D. It served for the more strong confirmation of the things whereof we have already spoken: for there was none of them but that they did know right well that there was neither illusion nor enchantment in those things, and that they were done by no power of man, but of God: wherefore, they served again as a new seal for the confirmation of the ministry, and vocation of Moses, & of the majesty and power of God to save his, & to destroy his adversaries: for by that he did declare that he was the God of nature, and that he did dispose of her even as it pleased him, and that he did all that he would as well in heaven as in earth. And therefore he would himself even from his own mouth preach unto his people: he would also ring to the sermon that he would make unto them, and prepare them and make them heedful to hear him. He had then for his bells, & for his Music, the Cornet and trumpette, to cause them to hear his voice, and to awaken them, which things did very well agree with the nature of the law. For by the same the sentence of the curse of God is pronounced 
Deut. 27  upon all those that shall not observe it even to the uttermost jot.   

¶ Of the usage of the la, to lead men to jesus Christ, by the knowledge of their sins.  
T. THen is there none but he is accursed, for how may we observe and fulfil the law thoroughly, when we are not able perfectly to accomplish the least point contained therein? D. All be it that it is evil as thou sayest, yet doth it not follow but that it profiteth us much: for it doth condemn us, and causeth us to seek our absolution, having recourse to the grace and mercy of him who condemneth us by the same, to absolve us afterward, and to deliver us from the condemnation which we have deserved. She declareth unto us the curse, to teach us to know the wrath of God against sin, and to stir us up to seek that seed of 
Ro. ●. 4. 7. Gen. 12. 22 Galat. thirty  blessing which is in jesus Christ, by whom that curse is wiped away. T. They have not a little profited that have learned this knowledge.   

¶ Of the cause wherefore God would make the people of Israel afraid by those signs which he gave in the mount Synay.  
D. ANd for so much as the heart of man is high, proud, and stubborn, and can not humble himself under the mighty hand of God, nor acknowledge the power and the Majesty of him, and his wrath against sin, & how much he is to be feared & redoubted, his will was to declare these things by such tokens. For if the sound of the thunder, which is called the voice of God, be so horrible and fearful, that there is none but is moved and afraid with it: and if the material lightning be so violent, that nothing is able to resist 
Pl. 18. 104.  it, nor to stand before it, let us then think how horrible and fearful the voice of God shall be when he shall speak to the wicked in his anger, and in his wrath, and when he shall 
Mat. 7. 25.  say unto them: go your way, and departed from me ye workers of iniquity: go into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the Devil and his Angels. The same shall be a terrible thunder which shall cast so exceeding a horrible lightning, that no one of those that it shall smite, shall be able to abide it, but that he shall be thrown headlong into the bottomless pit of hell. It shall lighten a fire which never shall be quenched: for 
Esay. 66. Mar. 9 Deut. 4 Heb. xii Psal. xviii. Gene. 19  the Lord is a consuming fire which will burn and consume all those which would not walk in his light. It is he that casteth the great flames of fire, and the burning coals out of his mouth when he speaketh, as those of Sodom and Gomorre have already proved. Then, whosoever he be, that will not hear his fatherly voice, by the which he declareth unto us his will in so loving a sort, he shall be constrained to hear that thundering, roaring, and fiery voice, which maketh the the heaven and earth to ring and tremble, of the which the thunder is but a very little sound, and a very soft expression. T. Seeing it is so, he is a Lord that speaketh very mightily, and is greatly to be feared.   

¶ Of the trumpet which did sound in the mount Synay, & of the meaning thereof and of the blessings and cursings of the la, and of the publishing of the same.  
D. IN like sort this cornette & that trumpet, was a sign and a token of that great trumpet which shall sound at the last day, and shall cause the earth to open, and shall 
Math. xxv. i Cor. 15 i. Thes. v. john. v.  come even to the ears of the dead, which are rotten in the dust of the same, even from the beginning of the world, and shall call both the quick and the dead to judgement. For even as the people were assembled together in the mount Synay by the trumpet that there did sound in like sort in the latter day, all shallbe gathered together by the sound of 
Levi. 23  the trumpet of that great God, to be judged according to that law which then he gave: We may see the like of the cornets and trumpets which they used to sound in Israel in the year of jubilee, and when they should gather the people together to hear the law of God. Then when this last trumpet shall sound, of the which these same have been even as figures, every man shall know of what value the blessings are which he hath promised to those which should obey unto his law, and also the curses with the which he threateneth all the rebels and wicked ones. For after that he had spoken on the height of the mountain out of the midst of the smoke, and that he had given the laws, the determinations, the decrees, and the canons of this great council which he held with his people. He gave also the order and manner of his blessings and curses, and maledictions, which afterward likewise were published in great solemnity and majesty, For he commanded that the one 
Deut. 27  part of the twelve tribes of Israel should go up to an hill, to rehearse the blessings: and the other should stand upon an other to rehearse the curses, and that the whole multitude should be in a valley, to subscribe and bind them selves openly and solemnly to the observance of the same, in the which obligation we all are comprehended. T. This is not an obligation which a man may discharge with a sum of money.   

¶ Of the last and general judgement of God, and of the sentence that shall be given there, without respect of person, as well upon the faithful, as on the infidels.  
D. Therefore it behoveth us to have good regard to our doings in this behalf: for these are no plays of little children, nor lightnings papal, which are but in parchment and paper, and in ink, and in wax, and in lead. There shall be there an other assistance than is that of the Council of Trent. There shall be there an other kind of song and melody then in the feast of the Image of Nabuchodonosor, and in the Pope's sessions, the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, and generals of the Monks, shall not be set there to give the last sentences, nor to pronounce the condennations, the curses & maledictions against the very disciples of jesus Christ: nor yet the Emperors, kings, Princes, & their Ambassadors, to execute the judgements of these here: but all these together shall appear there to be themselves judged every man according to his works, 
Gal. vi  by the which they have declared what faith they have had in jesus Christ. jesus the very son of God to whom the father hath given all power and all judgement, he shall be 
Math. 25. 24. john, v.  there set in the glorious throne of this majesty, with all his heavenly Angels, and all his patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles, to hold a Council for to hear the last appellations and to revoke all the unjust sentences that have been given against his, and against his truth, which they have followed by the wicked decrees and Counsels of tyrants and of his adversaries, and condemn those which have condemned that innocents, and to absolve such as have been unjustly condemned. It shall be he himself that shall pronounce the sentences, the blessings and the curses, by the which the great beast, and the great whore sitting upon the same, & all those which have borne the mark of the beast, and those which have been drunken with the wine of her fornication, shall 
Apo. 17. 18  be condemned, and the innocentes delivered, whose blood she hath shed through the aid of the red Dragon: in the which she hath died her garments of purple and scarlet. Then 
Apoc. xvii,  the beast and all his false Prophets and adherents, shall be thrown into the deep pit, and into the furnace of fire and brimstone, which shall never be quenched: which shall greatly differ from that in the which this cruel beast did roast 
Apoc. xx  and burn the children of God, in a fire which is forthwith consumed into ashes, wherefore we have no occasion so to fear it: nor yet the executioners which light it, least the thinking to flee it, we fall into that everlasting fire, and be delivered into the hands of the hellish tormentors, to be tormented with them and by them everlastingly, and to be shut out from the company of this great king jesus, and from all his heavenly Court, to dwell eternally in the kingdom of darkness, in that hellish Court and company, so cursed and execrable.   

¶ Of the sanctification and preparation that God did require of his people, when he would give them his la, & of the same that is required of us to prepare us to receive his word.  
T. Sing that it is so, we ought then to give good ear to understand what is commanded us in that law, 
Exo. nineteen.  and to hear it with great honour and reverence. D For that cause God before he descended into the mount, commanded that his people should be sanctified to receive him, and that they should prepare themselves two days before, and that they should wash their clothes, and that they should come near no woman, wherein he declared that all unclenlynes and filthiness abhorred him: & y● to draw near unto him, and to hear and understand his voice, it was requisite to bring thither a heart and a mind separated and free from all earthly things, and wholly dedicated to him, and rapt in him. For he hath no respect to apparel, but by his outward cleanliness and honesty, he would give us to understand what the inward aught to be, and would us to understand that if a foul and a filthy garment do offend and loathe a man, then by greater reason hath he just occasion to be offended with our hearts, & with out filthy souls and consciences, being vile and infected with sin. And for so much as they be such, and that the law was given to warn us thereof, and that we ought to seek for our cleanness in him, he commanded that ceremony. In like sort, because that marriage is his ordinance, and that it is honourable in all estates, and the bed undefiled: we may not therefore think that he condemned it when he 
Gene. 12 Math. nineteen. Heb. xiii i Cor. seven  did forbid the people to be conversant with their wives for the space of two days. For if it were not holy and honest, he would no more suffer it in other days, then in those days: but in showing us that it was expedient for us to abstain even from those pleasures which were lawful, and which he himself doth permit unto us, when we will be occupied in meditation and prayer, and in the hearing of his word, & in other holy things, to the end that we should be wholly void & separate from all earthly thoughts & affections, to the end that they might wholly give themselves unto him: he giveth us perfectly to understand how much more necessary it is to abstain from all unlawful pleasures, & from all filthiness & villainy. It is also the cause why that S. Paul doth permit those 
i Cor. 7.  that are married to refrain from lying together for a certain time, so that it be by the consent of both the parties, to exercise themselves in fasting and prayer.   

¶ Of the fastings and abstinences, and of the differences of days and meats which they observe in the Popish, church, and of their original and foundation, and of the default that therein is.  
T. I Do think also that for the like purpose it was ordained in the old time to fast the Aduente, the Lente, the Vigiles, and the four embers, and to abstain from certain meats the Fridays and Saturdays, for to dispose and prepare men through abstinence the more willingly to hear the word of GOD, and to prayer, and to the communion of the Sacraments, as well on the Sundays, as on other holy days, and chiefly on the most solemn days: as on Christmas day, Easter, and whitsunday. D. It is like to be true. But albeit that it may be alleged that this was ordained for a good intent, yet notwithstanding there was a great fault in so doing, because that those which were Authors of such traditions were so hardy, not only to give such laws to the Church, by their own authority with out the expressed word of GOD, but also to make them perpetual, and by them to put difference between day and day, and between one meat and the other, and to make the Church subject to those observations which are more than jewyshe, and those which have added unto it the opinion of desert, and have bound them upon the pain of deadly sin, yea and have done worse: for they have defaced and blotted the benefits of jesus Christ, causing men by these means to trust and to put the hope of their salvation in meats and days, and in their works, where they ought only to put it in jesus Christ.   

¶ Of the sobriety, abstinence, and honesty that is required of the Christians in their assembles in the Church.  
T. ANd if that those men have committed a fault on their part, ought not we also on our side to take good heed, lest that we taking in hand to amend this fault, should fall into an other extremity, as many do even at this day? D. You say very well: for if we think the superstitious abstinences of the Papists worthy of blame, let us not think to correct them by gluttony and drunkenness and other dissolutions: but let us endeavour ourselves to bring them to a true sobriety, abstinence and Christian chastity. Wherefore at what soever time, and when we shall either take in our hands the book of the holy Scriptures, thereby to understand of the will of GOD, or else that we come together in the Church to hear his voice, by the holy Ministry of his word, or else to communicate and be partakers of his holy sacraments, and of the prayers which are there made, we ought to go with no less reverence, ne yet to prepare ourselves in none other sort, then if we should hear 
Acts. two  God with his own mouth speak out of the cloud, and out of the great smoke which was in the Mount of Synay, and that we did hear the great thunders, and the lghtnings that were then seen. For even the same God which then did there speak, is even he that speaketh at this present day in his Church, and shall judge us according to that law which he hath published there. And albeit that he speaketh unto us now more familiarly and more lovingly than he then did: yet notwithstanding let us not think that he is of less power and force, than he then was. But in that that he useth such gentleness and benignity toward us, the punishment shall be so much the greater upon us, if we do abuse the same. If we will understand how we ought to guide and govern ourselves, we must clean to the resolution of this Council, and to the decrees and ordinances which we have received.   

¶ Of the Council that was holden in the Mount Zion, and of the conference of the same with that which was holden in the Mount Synay: and of Moses, and of jesus Christ, and of the Ministry of the law, and of the Gospel.  
T. This is a goodly Council, and of great authority: but thou saidst that there was yet an other in the land of Chanaan and of judea, and in especial in the Mount of Zion by the very Son of God. I would be very glad that thou wouldst declare unto me also what that was. D. That Council doth even so much excel the other, as jesus Christ 
He●. iii  doth excel Moses, and the Master of the house, the servant. For though that GOD himself did speak in proper person in both, yet notwithstanding he hath showed himself this second time in a sort much more authentic and more excellent, more amiable and agreeable to the weakness of man's nature: then ever he did since the beginning of the world. For when he showed himself in the mount Synay, the people did not see his 
Deut. 4. Exod. xi● Hebr. two  face nor shape, nor did see or hear any thing, but such as were horrible and fearful. It was not lawful for them to do so much as to come to the mountain, or to touch the uttermost part thereof, with out danger of death, and to be stoned or stricken thorough with arrows, were it man or beast. Therefore, the people being greatly amazed and afraid, desired Moses to be 
Exod. xx Eeu. xxviii  as a mean between GOD and them, and to declare unto them his will and pleasure as his Ambassador, to that end that they mought hear no more that voice of GOD so horrible and fearful: for they thought that they could not hear it again, but that they should all die, and did much marvel that ever they could hear it with out death. Wherefore GOD knowing the weakness of his people, did promise them to send them a Prophet, even out of the midst of their brethren, like unto Moses, into whose mouth he would put his word, and by 
Deut. xviii  the same he would cause them to hear his voice. This Prophet, according to the testimony of Saint Peter, is jesus Christ our Lord, of whom the Father himself did say: This is my well-beloved son in whom I 
Acts. three Math. 3. 1●  have set my whole delight, hear him. And for that cause the Apostle saith writing to the Hebrews, that God hath 
Heb. i  in time passed oftentimes, and in sundry sorts spoken to our Fathers by the Prophets, but in these latter days he hath spoken to us by his own Son, and making comparison of this manifestation which was made by our saviour jesus Christ, with that of the mount of Synay. Truly (saith he) you are not come to the mountain which mought be touched, nor to burning fire, nor yet 
Heb. xi●  to darkness and mist, and unto tempest, neither unto the sound of a trumpet and to the voice of words: the which those which did hear it, refused that the communication should be addressed to them any more: for they could not endure that which was commanded. If a beast touch the mountain, he shall be stoned or else stricken thorough with a dart. And so terrible was the sight that appeared, that Moses said, I fear and quake: but you are come to the mount Zion, and to the City of the living God, the heavenly jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of Angels, and to the congregation of the first borne, which are written in the heavens, and to God which is judge of all: and to the spirits of just and perfect men, and to jesus Christ the mediator of the new Testament, and to the sprinkled blood of which declareth better things, than the blood of Abel. See that you despise not him that speaketh: for if they escaped not, which despised him that spoke on earth, much less shall we escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth. T. It seemeth to me that these words contain a goodly conference of the Ministry of the law and of the Gospel, and I have a great desire to hear it.   

¶ Of the manifestation of God in Christ.  
D. THen where as the people saw nothing at that time but fire, and smoke, and great darkness, which letted them from seeing both the Sun and the Moon, & 
Deut. 4.  also the heavens, God hath showed himself to us in jesus Christ his son in man's shape, in our own flesh: For it is he that is the very Image of God, and that very form of his substance & the brightness of his glory. It is he that is the true 
john i ●. Tim. iii Seb. i Mal. iiii john. viii  Son of justice, and the only light of the world, by whom all mists and darckenesses are chased away, even those which let us to see God. And where as then the people durst not come to the foot of the Mountain, how perfect and how well prepared so ever they were, to receive the Lord, we have now access, even to the very throne of his Majesty, by jesus Christ our Lord, through whom it is given us, not only to come unto him, but also 
Heb. iiii  to touch & embrace him, for the sanctification which 
i Cor. 6 Dan. ix  we have received of him, that is the holy of holy ones, is in deed of other virtue and efficacy than was that of Moses towards the Israelites. In the stead of that horrible voice and of the Trumpets, and of the thunders, which did shake the heaven and also the earth, which made the Mountains to tremble and ring, which according to the testimony of David, is 
Psalm. xxix  of that force that it breaketh and teareth down the Ceders of Libanus, and maketh them to leap like Calves, and the Mountain itself like young Unicorns, and it maketh the great floods of water to come, and also to return, and it cutteth a sunder the flames of fire, and lanceth them forth as darts, and maketh the wildernesses to shake, and doth unclothe the forests, and maketh the Mountains to break, and the Hinds to Calf: We hear that sweet and loving voice of the child jesus the Son of GOD, the true immanuel, 
Math. 1. 2. Esay. seven. Luke. two Math. xi.  by whom we may lawfully say: GOD is with us, we hear that amiable voice which saith: Come unto me all ye that are laden and wearied, and I will ease you, and you shall find rest to your souls. Take my yoke upon you, for it is easy and light. We hear that sweet voice that comforteth all those which are poor and miserable which come to him, and declareth to all poor and wretched sinners, the grace, 
Esay 61 Luke. 4 Heb. v Mat. 27.  and the mercy of GOD, and the forgeving of sins: which prayeth with lamenting and tears for poor sinners. Yea, even for his very enemies, and is heard, and doth reconcile us to God. It is he that hath brought to us from heaven the resolution of the great Council of God, to the which all the patriarchs & Prophets have consented and agreed. The which he hath confirmed, 
Heb. iii Rom. 3. 5  not only by signs and miracles, which were much more excellent than ever were those that were wrought by the hands of Moses: but also by his death, by his resurrection, and by his ascension: and last of all by the holy Ghost whom he sent to his Apostles and disciples, in wonderful majesty, in the likeness of fiery tongues, and with a found from heaven, as it had been of a mighty wind, 
Mat. 27. 28. Luke. 24 act. 1. 2. 3.  which was suddenly risen, but more loving than the fire and whirl winds which were perceived and seen in the Mount of Synay. T. The difference is very great.   

¶ Of the last seal, and of the last declaration and confirmation of the doctrine of God, and of the nature and virtue of the holy Ghost.  
D. IT is he that was the great seal of the whole eternal purpose and Council of God, by whom he declared with greater authority than ever he did, how he did put his church in lawful & full possession of his holy spirit, with signs and testimonies declaring his nature & virtue. For it is a wind, 
john. iii.  whose spring and rising none doth know, whose being and nature is unsearchable, who by his power beateth down all those that resist him, and purgeth and refresheth the souls and consciences, and giveth life, comfort and health to all those which give over themselves unto him. It is a fire which lighteth, which purgeth, which doth warm & heat the hearts, and the tongues of the chosen of God, which proveth the faithful and the unfaithful, and consumeth all the reprobates: wherefore in vain do the enemies of God conspire against this mighty wind: in vain do they kindle their fires and lighten their furnaces to quench and put out this divine fire: in vain do they hold their Counsels to blot out the decrees of this eternal Council of GOD sealed with such a seal. For when we have jesus Christ the very son of God, which was sent unto us from 
john. 1. 6.  the bosom of the Father, we have him that bringeth the true seal and print, and the very mark of God, with the which he is signed and allowed of the father, to witness unto us that he did send him unto us, as he upon whom we ought only to dwell. And even (as he is allowed by God his father, as is that which is allowed by the authoritised sign and seal of a prince) so doth he also mark with the seal of his holy spirit all those which are marked with the seal of his eternal election, which is sure, according to the testimony 
two. Tim. two.  of Saint Paul. And therefore he saith that the Lord doth know all those that are his: and that it is he that doth streng then us, and it is he that hath anointed us, and marked us, and hath given us in our hearts the earnest of the holy Ghost, for the day of our redemption: Wherefore, even as the children of God be marked with this mark and seal, even so can they not deny him whose sign and seal they 
two. Cor. i. Ephe. 1. 4.  bear, but for their part also do seal and allow the truth of God, in receiving him which he did send with his seal. Seeing then that it is so, we may not allege the multitude, 
john. 3  to take away the authority of that small company of six score personnes, in the which the Apostles were, who by the virtue of the holy Ghost which they there received, have published the determinations of this great Council. For the truth and the Spirit of God are bound neither to times, places, nor persons: no, not in deed unto them which do possess the seat of the very servants of God, and do abuse their office, and are governed by a contrary Spirit. For all be it that the Bishops, the Priests, the Scribes, the Pharisees, & the Council of jerusalem, did occupy the place of the true servants of God, and had authority over the temple and over the people, and had all the worldly power and pomp on their side, & did brag of the promises of the word of God: Yet for all that the holy Ghost did never preside in their Council, as he did in the Council of this small company: and their decrees against the truth, had not so great power to overthrow it, as the decrees of this small company had to establish, confirm, and advance it, and to destroy all lies and untruth.   

¶ Of the examination of the true Christian doctrine: and of the spring and last determination of the same, and of the curses against those which do falsify it.  
D. THese be the decrees of the which it is written in the Prophets: The law shall come forth from Zion, & the word 
Es●y. two  of God from jerusalem, it is not said: The law shall come forth from that Mount Capitoline, or Palatine, or Aduentine, or from any other of the seven which are in Rome, but from the mount Zion, & from jerusalem, therefore it behoveth us well to consider, whether the doctrine that is set forth unto us for Christian, be agreeable to that law & word which came from Zion & jerusalem: and not to that which came forth from Rome, & from the Mountains of the same, but only in y● that Rome shall have received it from thence: for it is the rule by that which the church of Rome & the doctrine of the same must be ruled, and not it by the church or doctrine of Rome. That same than which was done in jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, 
Acts. two  in the company of the Apostles & Disciples of jesus Christ, was done to the end that the Apostles and Disciples of jesus Christ, being armed with the power of the spirit of God from on high, and with that goodly gift of tongues, should (as 
Act. 1.  lawful and authorized Ambassadors, & Heralds of this great King and son of the eternal God) show and proclaim through out the universal world, the determination of this divine and heavenly Council, first published & declared by their Lord and Master jesus Christ, with the blessings and curses prepared for those which shall receive or refuse it. It is the last determination unto the which we must cleave and stick, which hath again sith that time been confirmed by the miracles and death of so many Apostles, and Martyrs, that the number is in manner infinite. It is a determination of such importance & of such authority, that the Apostles themselves, yea & the very Angels of heaven, must be subject unto it: in such sort that it is by no means lawful for them to set forth or declare any other doctrine then that 
Gal. 1. 2.  of the Gospel of our Lord jesus Christ, upon pain of eternal cursing, and not without cause. For, seeing that the son of God hath spoken, is there any creature in heaven or in 
Heb. i Gal. i, two.  earth that may correct it? If then according to the witness of Saint Paul, the curse and malediction of this great Council be such, let us then see in what sort we ought to esteem those which dare to take in hand that, which neither Apostle nor Angel what so ever he be either dare or will: and in what danger they put themselves, that will follow and hearken unto such men.   

¶ Of the vengeance of God against those that despise the Gospel.  
T. MEn ought to consider and think well on that which thou sayest: and truly God hath given us a great gift, and hath showed unto us a great token of love, when that after this great and worthy parsonage Moses, and so many other excellent patriarchs and Prophets, he would also send his own Son, and would himself speak unto us by him, and teach us the true and right way of salvation, and would lead and bring us thither 
Esay. two. Mich. iiii  by him, as a good father leadeth his little child by the hand. Therefore, we should be very unhappy if we would not follow such a guide: for if we will not hear the voice of the very Son of God, and trust in him, whom shall we hear, and whom shall we believe? We may well say with S. Peter, Lord, to whom shall we go? For thou haste the word of eternal life. D. The testimony that 
john. vi.  hath been recited out of the Epistle to the Hebrews, doth show us plainly into what danger we put ourselves, if we despise the doctrine which the Son of GOD hath brought unto us from heaven, which ringeth in his Church thorough the mouth of his Ministers, and is daily set before us in the holy Scriptures. T. It is greatly to be feared that if they which despised the doctrine which was brought unto them by the servant, were so grievously punished: 
Heb x  they which shall contemn the Lord and Master, deserve to be double punished. D. For the very cause our Lord jesus Christ said, that the judgement shall be more easy 
Math. x Marck. vi Luk. ix. x  against those of Sodom and of Gomorre, then against them that would not receive his Gospel, and the bringers of the same.   

¶ Of the difference that men do commonly put between the law of rigour, and the law of grace, and of the abuse that therein is.  
T. HOw do these things agree then with the difference that we see men put commonly between the old and the new Testament and between the law of Moses which was given to the jews, and the law of jesus Christ given to the Christians? For men do commonly call that of Moses' and the old Testament, the law of rigour: and that of jesus Christ and the new Testament, the law of grace. D. Do these men which make that distinction think that God is changed since the time that he gave his law by Moses, & that he doth not as much hate iniquity now, as he did then? Do they think that he can better endure the outrage that is done to his own Son, than he could do that which was done to his servant? Do they think that jesus Christ came into the world to increase & allow sin, and not rather to make it more & more hateful and to put it away? T. It is like so: for if a man do allege that adultery must be punished, and will show how much it displeaseth God, for so 
levit. x Deut. 22  much as he commanded in the law of Moses, that adulteries should be punished by death: they have forthwith their recourse to this distinction of the law of rigour & of grace, saying that we are under the law of grace, and not under the law of rigour. And although they do the like in divers other such crimes, yet is there none to whom they would make this law of grace more beneficial then to whores & whoremasters. D. Wherefore do they not then cause that law of grace to be as favourable to thieves, whom they condemn to death, which the law of Moses doth not, as it doth the adulterers? But what is the cause that murderers & thieves, 
Exod. 22 Prou. ●  and all other evil doers are punished? why have they no part of this law of grace? T. They think that they have greater reason concerning the punishment of adulteries, because that jesus Christ would not condemn the woman 
john. viii.  which was taken in adultery and brought unto him by the jews. D. Will they by that mean conclude that jesus Christ did more favour adulteries, than he did other offences and crimes? They are therein greatly deceived. For jesus Christ did not that which he did in that matter, to give men to understand that whores and whoremasters should remain unpunished: but for y● that his office tended not thereunto: and that he would confound the hypocrisy of those which had brought her unto him, and therefore he would have done no less touching any other offence. Therefore we may not in this sort abuse the grace which is brought unto us by jesus Christ. T. Yet notwithstanding the matter passeth so at this day.   

¶ Of the difference and diversity of the laws of Moses, and of their nature.  
D. IT is very true, as it hath been already declared else where, that we ought to consider in sundry wise of the law of Moses, and that there is great difference between the law whereof Moses was minister, and the Gospel, which appertaineth properly to the ministry of jesus Christ. Men have accustomed to divide the law of Moses into three kinds, of the which the first was commonly called moral, the other ceremonial, & the other civil. Thou hast already heard a part of mine opinion and judgement touching that matter, I have already declared how that the law of God which we do call moral, the which containeth the declaration of the everlasting will of God, did nothing differ, or at the least very smally from that law that we call natural, which God hath engraven in the hearts of men: and y● that law written was given but only to make us to understand, and to restore unto us that goodness which sin hath taken from us, and to declare unto us how far a way it hath carried from us the innocency, holiness and perfection, which ought to be in us: and should in deed have been in us, if sin had not entered into the world, and that we had continued still in that estate in the which the first man was created. For seeing that he was created according to the image of God, there is no doubt but that the will of God, and that which he requireth of us, was printed in that image, which should always have governed and ruled the will of man, and should always have maintained it agreeable with the will of God, and should have been unto us a law for ever. And afterward I have also declared how that the law ceremonial and civil, were nothing else but as dependences of that law, commonly called morale and decalogue, (because that it containeth ten commandments, which are called in the Scripture, the ten words) to serve to lead men in the keeping of that law, as well concerning those things which directly belong to God and to his divine service, to the which the ceremonial law hath regard: as unto those things which touch our neighbour, to the which the civil laws have their chief respect: whereupon it hath been declared in what sort both the one and the other of these two kind of laws might be abolished & put away, and what liberty we have concerning the same through our Lord jesus Christ.   

¶ Of the abolishing of the law of Moses, and of the old Testament, and of the things which ought to be considered therein.  
T. I Have well understood all this, but I do think, that I have also heard say that the whole law of Moses was abolished. And in like sort I have heard say that we have now no more to do neither with Moses his law, nor any part of the old Testament, but with jesus Christ & his gospel. Wherefore I would gladly know of thee if this law of decalogue be also abolished or no, or whether we be yet subject unto it, or else that we be clearly free from it, and how we ought to think of it. And then I do think that it shall be more easy for me afterward to understand, if the distinction of the law of rigour and of grace (of the which we have lately spoken) be any thing meet in such a matter, and how we ought to use both the one and the other. D. Beside those things whereof we have already spoken, we must note if we will well understand this matter, that this abolishing must be considered in two sorts. The one concerning the transgression, the other the fulfilling of the law. The transgression 
Leu. two Gal. three Rom. 3. 11 3. King. 4. ● Gal. ●● joh. i iii ● Rom. 8  bringeth with it the wrath and curse of God upon that transgressor, and maketh every man subject to that curse and wrath. The mean to be delivered, is by faith, by the which we embrace jesus Christ with all the good gifts that are in him, now it is written that he would become subject to the law, to deliver from subjection of the law those that be subject thereunto: and that he being hanged upon a tree, was made accursed for us, bearing upon himself the curse 
Gal. 4. Gene. 12. ●8  which was due for our transgression to abolish the same, and to make us partakers of the blessing of God, which was promised to Abraham and to other holy patriarchs and Prophets through him. For it is he that is the true seed of 
Psal. ●●.  Abraham, in & through whom that promised blessing was sprinkled upon all people and nations.   

¶ Of the difference that is between the faithful and the unfaithful, concerning the blessing and the curse of the la, through jesus Christ.  
T. WE may then well take that which thou sayest for to be the mean whereby the elect and the reprobate, the faithful and the unfaithful are divided and sundered the one from the other. D. In so doing thou takest it not amiss. For as S. Paul witnesseth, we are all borne the 
Ephe. two. john. 3. 5.  children of wrath. But as it is written in S. john: he that believeth in the son of God, hath eternal life. It followeth then that he is delivered from that curse, which bringeth everlasting death. And so he is delivered from the law, as touching the condemnation and curse wherewith she threateneth all transgressors. Therefore S. Paul saith that there is no condemnation for those that are in jesus Christ 
Rom. 8  which live after the spirit, and not after the flesh. For jesus Christ taking upon him the curse which they had deserved, hath also satisfied the justice of God for them, & paid the debt which the law required. And the obedience which jesus Christ did yield to God his father, and the innocency and the justice that is in him, is accounted for theirs, as though it were their own properly. Therefore he esteemeth 
i Tim. two. i Cor. i two  them for just. And in consideration of this great benefit, jesus Christ is called by S. Paul, our conversation, and our justice, and contrarily according to the testimony of S. john, he that believeth not in the son of God, dwelleth under the wrath of God, in the which he is borne, through 
john, iii. v  which burden he shall be thrown down in to everlasting death, and into the very hell, because he hath no part of this benefit of jesus Christ, with whom we can have no part taking at all, but only thorough true and lively faith. T. I know that very well.   

¶ Of the benefit of jesus Christ, and of the good things that we receive by him, and what freedom of the law he bringeth to the faithful.  
D. Moreover, the benefit that we have in jesus Christ doth not serve us only for the remission of our sins, and the absolution of the same which we have committed against the law, by the which the curse thereof is turned in to blessing o: but doth also serve to prepare us for the time to come, and to bring us to the true obedience that the requireth of us, to the end that we fall no more again into the filth and danger out of the which we have been delivered. Therefore jesus Christ is called not only our justification, 
i Cori. i two  but also our sanctification. The benefit then that we receive of him is double: for first he blotteth out and wipeth away all the sin that he findeth in us. After that he doth regenerate us by his holy spirit, and doth reform and make ready our understandings and our wills for to know truly the will of God, and to agree unto the same, and to yield to God that obedience which is due unto him. Therefore, how much the more so ever this regeneration and reformation is perfect in us, and the more we draw nigh to that estate of innocency, in the which the first man was created and set, so much the more are we free from the law. For as S. Paul witnesseth: the law is not ordained for the just, but for the 
i Tim. i.  unjust.   

¶ In what sort we ought to understand that the law is not ordained for the just and the faithful, but for the unjust and faithless.  
T. HOw dost thou understand this passage or text? D. Tell me, to what end was the law given? was it not to restrain men from evil, and to set forward well doing? T. That is out of all doubt. D. Then, where there is no fear of iniquity and of transgression, there is also no need of law. For the just man being joined unto God, and being made partaker of his justice and nature, he is a law unto himself. For that that he hath the law of God printed in his heart by the mean of that image of God, unto the which he is made like. Wherefore, he keepeth himself from every thing that he knoweth to be contrary to the will of God, and employeth him to every thing that he knoweth to be pleasant and agreeable unto him, not with such a heart & mind as doth a hireling, which doth nothing but in hope of his hire: or as a man of an evil mind which refraineth not from the evil that he would willingly do, but only for that that the punishment which he feareth, holdeth him from it. For such men do nothing neither for the honour of God, nor yet for his justice, who of his nature is worthy to be loved and honoured, although there were no reward for those that honour him, nor punishment for them that offend him, and transgress against his holy ordinances. T. Why do they then do it? D. They do it only for the love of themselves. But the just man doth it to honour God, and for the love that he beareth to his justice, in such sort, as he cannot otherwise do, although there were no punishment at all ordained for the transgressors, nor yet reward for the obedient, as we see many examples thereof among men. For an honest man doth not keep himself from being a thief and a murderer, for fear of the punishment that is appointed for such offences, but for that he loveth virtue, and hateth vice. Therefore, although that such vices should not be punished at all, yet would he never the sooner do them. And therefore the law ordained for thieves and murderers, is not ordained for him, nor maketh him subject at all unto it, as is the thief and murderer: for so much as without it he doth of himself that which the law requireth. And therefore in this manner is the faithful delivered from the subjection of the law, and in this sort the law is abolished unto him.   

¶ Of the causes for the which the unfaithful remain still subject to the law, and wherein the faithful may also be subject unto it.  
T. THe unfaithful remaineth still subject both in the one and in the other sort: for he is not delivered from the curse of the law, because that his transgression is not wiped away by the blood of jesus Christ. And for that that his will is always contrary to the will of God, he hath also continually need of the law of God to restrain him, and to prick him. And therefore he is not delivered from the subjection thereof, as is the just man. D. It is true. And for that there is none so just nor so perfect, in whom there resteth not continually some root of this natural rebellion, which through sin remaineth imprinted in our entrails during the time that we abide in this mortal life: we shall remain so long subject to the law, as there shall remain in us any rebellion, weakness, or imperfection, and that we be far from that perfect reformation given to the image of God, which is required in us. The which subjection I do take, not in that sort that the law bringeth the curse to the transgressors, for so much as that curse is to the faithful turned into blessing through jesus Christ: but I take it in that sort that the law doth serve us for instruction, to teach us to refrain our will, according to the rule of the will of God.   

¶ Of the commodity that the faithful may also have of the law, and in how many sorts.  
T. THe law is then always profitable for us. D. Yea, & in sundry wise. For first in declaring to us the good that we are bound to do, and the evil that we ought to flee, she teacheth us to know what great commodity we have lost, and in to what misery & wretchedness we are fallen by mean of sin, to the knowledge whereof she leadeth us. And when she hath brought us to that knowledge, she doth by this mean bring us to humble ourselves before God, & to demand his grace. For the law showeth us our only refuge to be in jesus Christ, which is he by whom only 
Rom. iiii. v  we may obtain it. For seeing that her office is to demand of us, to the uttermost, that which we do owe unto God, or else to condemn us for default of the satisfaction which she requireth of us, and that there is none able to satisfy the least point therein contained, she doth plainly show us that we are dead and lost for ever, if we have not refuge and remedy else where. For that cause S. Paul doth call her a Pedagogue, to wit, a leader and a guide, to bring us to jesus Christ, in whom the help and remedy is set forth unto us. 
Galat. iii Note this passage  T. That is one goodly matter. D. Afterward, for so much as the justification and regeneration which we obtain through faith in jesus Christ, and through his spirit, is given us to none other end, but only to serve in justice & holiness, where as before we served in injustice and iniquity: & also for so much as that faith (by whose means 
Rom. 6. 7.  we do receive all these great benefits) can not be idle, nor without bringing forth the fruits of good works the which God requireth of her, and whereof she is the fountain & spring: the law doth greatly serve us to make us to know which be these works, for God requireth none other of us: and faith can bring forth none other but such as God hath declared in his law to be agreeable & acceptable unto him. And for so much as there remaineth continually in our understanding certain of those darknesses, which sin brought with it, and that by means of the same we do oftentimes dishonour God, what good will or intent so ever we have, thinking in deed to honour him: the law doth also serve us to lighten and cleanse these darknesses, & to keep us from choosing the evil in stead of the good, and to correct that zeal without knowledge which may be found in us, On the other side, for so much as it cometh often times 
●et no●e  to pass that our flesh doth cause our will to resist that very knowledge which we have by the law of God: the law is very necessary to show unto us continually that which we yet want, and to bring us by such declaration, to repentance, which is the first part of the preaching of the 
Luk. xxiii●.  Gospel, to make us ready thereby to obtain the other, which is the remission of sins, through the acknowledging of our offences, and the calling upon the grace and mercy of God, through faith in jesus Christ.   

¶ Of the agreement of the law and the Gospel, of the old Testament & of the new: and of the turning or change of the law of rigour into the law of grace, & of the la of grace into the law of rigour.  
T. I Do very well know by that which thou sayest, the ignorance of those which speak in this sort of the law and of the Gospel, as hath been already declared. D. Thou dost here see how the law and the Gospel, the old Testament and the new, the law of rigour and the law of grace, Moses and jesus Christ, do as it were hold 
Mat. seven. xi  hands: and how the Gospel doth there begin where the law doth end, and doth fully make perfect and finish that which the law began, in such sort that the one goeth not without the other. And for that cause, our Lord jesus Christ did say, that the law and the Prophets had their course until the coming of john baptist, in whose ministry the preaching of the law and of the Gospel were joined: and the ministry of the law did end, and the ministry of the Gospel did begin, to prepare men to that same of Christ, the which he himself did establish in his perfection: and then afterward the Apostles did follow and entertain it by the preaching of the Gospel. Thou dost also see how by the same mean the law of rigour is turned into the law of grace, to all such as are made capable thereof through Christ. But to the other sort, it is not only not so much turned into the law of grace, as the grace which is brought by jesus Christ to the faithful, doth the more augment the rigour of the same against the unfaithful, which abuse that grace, and cast it from them. For the more that the light of the knowledge is plenteously spread abroad upon the earth, and that God doth show more abundantly the riches of his grace and mercy, and the more that his Son jesus, through whom he doth make us part takers of these graces and mercies, hath showed himself unto us familiarly, and is not only more great and more excellent, than all the patriarchs and prophets, 
Heb. i. two  yea then the very Angels, the more grievous and fearful shall the punishment be upon him that shall despise so great a grace: For he casteth from him the mean by the which only he may receive that grace. Therefore where as jesus Christ should be unto him a loving Saviour, he maketh him his rigorous judge, and turneth that life which he hath brought unto him, into death, and the blessing into cursing. Therefore we ought well to have in mind the warning that the Apostle giveth in his Epistle to the Hebrews, following David, saying: if you do this days 
Psal. xcv. Heb. iii. iiii  hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as your fathers did in the wilderness.   

¶ Of the books of the great and general Counsels of God, containing the decrees and Canons of the same.  
T. THou hast thoroughly confirmed me, and hast well contented and satisfied my mind in all these matters, and chief touching the matter of the Council, I am fully contented with these twain, to the which thou dost direct me, the which I see joined together, even as thou haste said that the law & the Gospel, Moses and jesus Christ, the old and new Testament were one with an other. D. Thou oughtest not otherwise to understand it. For the Canons and decrees of the first, are nothing else then the doctrine of the law and of the Prophets, and of all the old testament, as those of the second are contained in the doctrine of the Gospel, and of the new Testament, beside the which we ought not to look for any other. T. I am very well contented with the same, and I desire God to give me his grace never to turn away from it, nor never to receive any other. But for that that my understanding is very gross, I would desire thee to do so●uch for me, as first to declare unto me the Decrees and Canons of this first Council, which is the law of God, given in the mountain of Synaye: and then I hope when I have once well understood them, that I shall have a good entry into the understanding of those of the other Council, which are contained in the Gospel of our Lord jesus Christ. D. I am very well content. But it seemeth that we shall do well to put it over till an other time, when we shall have more leisure.     

The table of this work, containing the principal matters of the same book. The first number declareth the page or side of the leaf, the second the Section.  
OF blindness & disorder that is among men in matter of religion. 3. 1 Luthors & causes of all order & disorder. 3. 2 Of the cause of the fall and reign of mankind. 4. 3 Of the difficulty that is 〈◊〉 to acknowledge their errors. 5. 4 Of the process that men bring against God. 6. 5 How that all false religion may be well defended. 6. 6 Of the arguments taken of the multitude. 7. 7 Of the arguments of time and ancienty. 8. 8 Of the fall of the devil. 8. 9 Of the predecessors of the wicked. 9 10 How that none may so well allege ancienty, as the faithful. 10. 11 Of the language that is in the heart of the hypocrites & wicked. 11. 12 Of the persecutors of the veriti. 12. 13 Of such as persecute the truth of a purposed malice. 12. 14 Of those that resist the truth wittingly. 14. 15 Of such as do resist the truth, and persecute it through ignorance. 1516 How that the want of the knowledge of god & his truth. 15. 17 Of the great care and diligence that is in men. 17. 18 Of the diligence that is in men to do evil. 18. 19 Of the vices that make men ignorant of god, & of his truth. 19 20 Of such as do contemn the knowledge of God. 20 21 Of the true knowledge of god. 22. 22 Of the true study of the holy scriptures. 23. 23 Of such Christians as are ignorant of the word of God. 23. 24 How much necessary the study of the word of God is. 25. 25 Of the desired ignorance. 26. 26 How that the publication that God hath made of his word. 27. 27 Of the means by which god hath and doth declare himself daily to men. 27. 28 Of those that cloak their rebellion against the word and will of God. 28. 29 Of those which commit idolatries to their princes. 30. 30 Of the offices of good princes and good subjects. 31. 31 How those men obey the devil, & not their princes. 32. 32 Of lawful laws of Christian Princes. 33. 33 Of unfaithful servants to Princes, & of their counsels▪ against God. 34. 34 Of the judgement of the Christian doctrine, and by whom it must be reported. 35. 35 Of the causes why the Princes should inquire of the will of god at the mouth of his ministers 37. 36 Dishonour done to God by such as vouchsafe not to inquire of his will at the hands of his ministers. 38. 37 What mean and order Princes ought to keep in judgement of things apertaining to religion. 39 38 How men ought to have greater care for matters appertaining to religion. 41. 39 How that men make more account of their promises, then of their consciences. 42. 40 Of the care that ought to be had to know the way of salvation. 44. 41 Admonitions in the holy Scriptures against false Prophets. 45. 42 How great business letteth the hearing of the word of God. 46. 43. Means to advance or hinder the business of men. 48. 44. Mockers and haters of the Gospel, and will seem no. 49. 45 Of Epicurians among the Christians & their diversity. 50. 46 Testimonies of Epicurians & of God's providence & justice against their false opinions. 51. 47 Light of god's word given to men & the nature of the same. 52. 48 The authority of holy scripture. 53. 49. Devilish perversity of Epicurians their agreement with the doctrine of Mahomet. 56. 50 Of man's traditions. 57 51 How we ought not to do the which seemeth good only in our own sight and opinion 58. 52 Of the works that are done to a good intent. 60. 53 To understand whether god have ordained sundry religions or no 61. 54 Of the causes of the diversity of the positine laws 62. 55 Of the agreement of the positive laws with the Ceremonial laws. 63. 56 What liberty God hath given in the usage of ceremonies. 65. 57  

❧ The second Dialogue.  OF the reasons which cause many to desire and wait for a Council. 68 1 Of the difference that is in Christendom in matters of religion, and what it doth. 69. 2 What profit the Church of God may receive of Counsels, and of their issues. 70. 3 Of the hope that men may have of the council in these days. 72. 4 Of the means of the enemies of the truth for the maintenance of their kingdom & false religion. 73. 5 Of the danger into the which they cast themselves which attend only upon Counsels. 74. 6 Of christian princes to reform the Church by mean of a general ●o●●cell. 75. 7 Of 〈◊〉 negligence and want that 〈◊〉 ●he ministers of the church 76. 8 Of the empeachments of men in the reformation of the church. 78. 9 How difficult it is to assemble a lawful Council at this day. 79. 10 How the Christians hinder the reformation of the Church. 81. 11 What Council the true christians ought to follow. 83. 12 Of such as would agree the doctrine of jesus Christ, and that of Antichrist together. 84. 13 The Interim may not be received neither into the Church of christ, ne yet of Antichrist. 85. 14 Of such christians as be neuters and indifferent. 86. 15 For what cause the Interim hath his name of an adverb. 88 16 The profit that those that be instructed in God's word, may receive by the Counsels. 89. 17 We ought not to be the disciples of men but of jesus Christ. 90. 18 The word of God doth authorize itself. 92. 19 What goodness men may receive of a good Council, and what evil of an evil Council. 93. 20 What the good Counsels may do to the wicked. 94. 21 What fruit the church may receive of the lawful Counsels. 96. 22 What praise is due to good princes and magistrates. 97. 23 Hypocrisy of such as depend upon men in matter of religion. 98. 24 How we are disciples of men, and how of jesus Christ. 100 25 Of the nature and virtue of true faith. 101. 26 Of the honour that is due to good & true teachers in the church. 103. 27 Of the difference of the apostles & prophets: and of those that came after them. 105. 28 The Council of S. Au●●●●yne concerning Counsels 〈◊〉 writings of the Fathers. 〈…〉  

❧ The third Dialogue entitled, The authority of Counsels.  OF the assistance of the holy ghost in lawful Counsels. 109. 1 What is to be desired in Counsels those which are most excellent. 111. 2 Of the weaknesses which were in the Council of Nice. 112. 3 Of the contrarieties between the bishops & ministers that have been in many ancient Counsels. 113. 4 Of the contradictions of the pope's and their decrees. 114. 5 Of the contrariety of the decrees of many Counsels. 116. 6 Of the contrarictie of certain counsels concerning the difference of meats. 118. 7 Of the decrees of the Counsels of Constance and Basle touching the lords supper under both kinds. 119. 8 Contrariety in many Counsels concerning Images. 120. 9 Of the Council of Carthage concerning the Baptism, administered by heretics. 121. 10 Opinion of the papists, concerning general and particular Counsels 122. 11 Of the abuses and errors which have been brought into the church 122. 12 Of those that would have the prelate's of the church to correct the abuses that therein are. 124. 13 Things of themselves sufficiently resolved without resolution of the Council. 125. 14 The liberty of Christians in reforming abuses. 127. 15 The passages which the Papists allege to authorize their Counsels. 129. 16 The holy ghost is not bound to any kind of person or estate. 1●9. 17 Of the assembles of the faithful. 131. 18 Of the Counsels of the heretics, condemning the Counsels of the faithful. 132. 19 The contraditions of the ancient Counsels, declare that the counsels may err. 134. 20 No hope for the Christians to have a lawful Council. 136. 21 What prayers men ought to make for their Princes. 138. 22 What Council they ought to follow that have princes which are enemies to the Gospel. 139. 23 Of the studi of the holy scriptures and of the decrees of the Council of Nice concerning the sam. 140. 24 Of the true Counsels which excel all the rest in authority. 142. 25 The authority of Princes & Popes concerning counsels. 143. 26 Of the manner of the proceeding of the Papists in their Counsels. 144. 27 Prudence required in disputation's in the papistik counsels. 145. 28 Resolution of the papistical counsels. 146. 29 What discords may be in the counsels of the Papists. 147. 30 Of the Pope's practices for his determination and conclusion of Counsels. 149. 31 Of the ignorance of the popish bishops. 150. 2 Of the final conclusion and resolution of the Council of the Papists. 151. 33 The order of the bishops in giving their consent in the papistical Counsels. 153. 34  

❧ The fourth dialogue, entitled, The resolution of Counsels.  Of the charge which God gave unto Moses. 155. 1 The allowing of the old testament is the allowing of the new. 157. 2 For what cause God did allow & confirm with such authority the ministry of Moses. 158. 3 Of the subtleties of the Pagan law makers & false prophets. 159. 4 Of the testimonies that God hath given to Moses of his vocation. 161. 5 Of the advertisements that God did give to the people of Israel. 162. 6 What tokens God gave of his presence in the mount Synay. 163. 7 Of the signification of the signs which God did give in giving his law. 164. 8 Of the usage of the law. 165. 9 For what cause God would fear the people of Israel by those signs which he gave in the mount Synay. 165. 10 Of the trumpet which did sound in the mount Synay. 166. 11 Of the last and general judgement of God. 167. 12 Of the sanccifitation that God required of his people, when he would give his law. 169. 13 Of fastings and of differences of meats which the papists use, and of their original. 170. 14 Of the sobrierie, abstinence & honesty that is required of the christians. 171. 15 Of the Counsel that was holden in the mount Zion. 172. 16 Of the manifestation of God in Christ. 174. 17 Of the last scale, and of the last declaration and contirmation of the doctrine of God 176. 18 Of the examination of the true christian doctrine. 178. 19 Of the vengeance of God against those that despise the gospel. 179. 20 Of the difference that men do commonly put between the law of rigour, & the law of grace 100L. 21 Of the difference and diversity of the laws of Moses, & of their nature. 181 22 Of the abolishing of the law of Moses, and of the old Testament. 183. 23 Of the difference that is between the faithful & unfaithful. 184. 24 Of the benefit of jesus Christ, ● of the good things that we receive by him. 185. 25 In what sort we ought to understand that the law is not ordained for the just and the faithful, but for the unjust & faithless. 185. 26 Of the cause for the which the unfaithful remain still subject to the law. 187. 27 Of the commodity that the faithful may also have of the law. 187. 28 Of the agreement of the law and the Gospel. 189. ●9 Of the books of the great and ●●neral counsels of God. 〈…〉  
FINIS.   

✚ Imprinted at London by John Day, dwelling over Aldersgate, beneath Saint martin's. (⸫)  
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