FISHER'S folly unfolded: OR THE VAUNTING JESVITES VANITY discovered in a challenge of his (by him proudly made, but on his part poorly performed.) UNDER TAKEN AND answered by GEORGE WALKER Pastor of S. JOHN Evangelist in Watling-streete LONDON.  
M. D.C.XXIIII.   

FISHER'S folly unfolded: OR THE VAUNTING jesuits vanity discovered in a challenge of his (by him proudly made, but on his part poorly performed) undertaken and answered by GEORGE WALKER Pastor of S. JOHN Evangelist in Watling-streete LONDON.  
IN the hot Month of june last passed, viz. Anno 1623. when the courages of our truehearted English people were generally much cooled through the absence of our rising Sun the illustrious Prince CHARLES then detained too long in Spain among the Antipodes of our Nation; but the Priests and Jesuits those hot lovers of the Romish Babylon enraged with the lusts of that proud whore, and puffed up with hope of prevailing in this Land, were as busy as wasps and hornets about our beehives, and as wolves about our folds seducing our flocks, and sending general challenges of disputation to our Shepherds every where. It so happened that Father Fisher the jesuit, a man as famous for his forwardness and impudency in challenging, as foolish in performance; and of as great esteem and name among the blind Papists; as of little worth in himself and in the judgement of wise learned men, was by the means and procurement of one of his disciples drawn into the lists to fight a single combat with Master Walker above named in manner and form following.  
First, a disciple of his, a desperate Popish Novice, resorting often to the house of an elder brother of his own who dwelled in Cheapside, and (as the fashion of such seduced Popelings is) railing upon the religion, and vilifying the learning and gifts of Protestants, did most intemperately extol the Church of Rome, and the learning of her Priests, especially of Fisher the jesuit, whom he did by name praise to the heavens for his disputation with Doctor White before the King's Majesty, and did not only boast of a glorious victory which there he had obtained, but also did proclaim him a challenger of all Preachers in England, and did dare the most hardy to meet him face to face in any place or before any Auditors, where they might dispute conveniently. A younger brother of his who was a Protestant, and lived in the house with his elder brother, being often assailed and attempted by him, and not able to endure any longer his boasting and daring speeches, did by his elder brother and others importune Master Walker to accept the challenge, which he did upon condition that a convenient day might be agreed upon and appointed by both parties. That the challenge is accepted they signify to their Popish brother, Fisher's Novice. He wonders that any dare be so hardy as to yield so far in promise, and tells them, that the promise will never be performed, neither will any Protestant Minister be so bold as to meet his invincible Master Fisher; but being urged and pressed to make a trial, he brings word at length upon a Saturday at night, that the next Monday the jesuit Fisher will come to his brother's house to encounter with any opposite whomsoever. They send word to Master Walker, who having urgent business, desired to have the meeting deferred till the next day, or till the evening of that day, but could not obtain so much; nevertheless because he would in no case forgo that opportunity of disputation with Fisher, nor give occasion to the insulting Novice to triumph (who upon his excuse of urgent business in that day, began to boast that the victory was gotten, and that he knew and foretold before hand how they should find it, and that no Protestant durst be so hardy as to meet Fisher in the face) he willingly did lay aside all business, and promising to be ready at the time appointed, sent word to the jesuit, that if he did not appear at his own hour, which was upon Monday at ten of the clock before noon, he should be judged the coward and left without all excuse. At the hour appointed Master Walker came, and heard nothing of the jesuit, for he came not till toward dinner time, but then coming with his Novice, who was brother to the master of the house, he was entertained with a dinner, till Master Walker was again sent for. Who about one of the clock returned, and by the way called upon Master Burton Pastor of S. Matthewes parish in Friday street, and did request him to go along with him, and to be a witness of the whole carriage of the business. At their first entrance Master Fisher complained because they came two against one. Master Burton did assure him that he came only to be an hearer, and promised that he would not speak nor intermeddle, except when both parties should agree to it. Then (diverse friends and neighbours to the Master of the house coming in to hear and see what passed) Master Walker began to speak to the Jesuit as followeth.  Mr. Walker. 
Sir, if that fame and report, which you and your friends have raised, and which goeth abroad concerning your worth and learning be true, you must needs be a man able to do more for the Romish religion, than any other of your fellows now living, or of your predecessors going before. We who have heard of your bold intrusion into the Court and the presence of our learned King, and of your challenges which you have made and sent to Doctor White, and other men of great learning and note, do expect from you some extraordinary grounds and arguments for the Popish religion, and such skill and learning, as hath not been seen before in any of your profession. Our desire is therefore, that at this time you will make known unto us some of your best skill, and show us some of the chief grounds upon which you build your faith and religion. And I for my part, if I cannot overthrow them by God's word, will very willingly yield unto them, and acknowledge that you have the truth on your side.  
The jesuit at the mention of his great fame and report showed a kind of itching delight, and used never a word tending by way of modesty to extenuate his learning and gifts; but as one desirous to increase his own fame, and to justify the report which the blind Papists give out concerning his worth, breaks out with a smiling sigh into a Pharisaical commendation of himself to this effect.  Mr. Fisher. 
Indeed I must confess, that I have always from my childhood loved the truth, and diligently sought after it. Once I was a Protestant (God forgive me) and did with an hungering desire inquire after the truth, but could never receive any satisfaction among any sects of Protestants, but spent my labour in vain, still remaining full of doubts and scruples. Whereupon I did with all humility, fasting and prayer seek unto God, and pray unto him, to guide me into the way of truth. Who at length for my humility and the sincerity of my heart, did grant my request, and did draw me unto the Catholic Church, where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon, from which I purpose never to be moved, but will hold me to it for ever.  Mr. Burton. 
Mr. Burton grieved to hear the jesuit boasting after such a Pharisaical manner, could not refrain, but taxed him of pride and hypocrisy for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true religion (as he termed it) to the merit of his own humility, sincerity, and his prayers, which he made before his conversion, while he remained in ignorance.  Mr. Walker. 
Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words, and offered to prove that the jesuit did err most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and religion, in that he builded his first calling upon the merit of his own virtues and of his works which he performed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindness. He also taxed him of manifest absurdity and contradiction in his speech, in that he first so far vilified and condemned the Protestant state, and counted it so sinful and damnable, that he asked forgiveness of God for his once being a Protestant: and yet immediately did attribute his conversion and calling into the Catholic Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed. Moreover he charged him with extreme folly and madness for abandoning and forsaking that Church & state, wherein (by his own confession) he did perform works meritorious, and betaking himself to the service and slavery of the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon, the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is showed in God's word, Revel. 19 to be the wrath of God and eternal vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore.  
For answer to these objections, the jesuit complained, that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once. And Master Burton desiring to be excused for that he could not but out of his zeal reprove his palpable boasting of his own merits, promised to be silent hereafter, if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker. Then the jesuit proceeded and spoke to this effect.  Mr. Fisher. 
The Church of Rome, of which I am a member, is the only true Catholic Church, for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it, and hath not altered nor erred in any main point, but holds the same still, which all true Catholic and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach, as here is manifestly showed and proved in this book by Gualtherius (meaning Gualtherius his Chronographica sacra, which there he had brought and laid before him on the table) who doth produce plain testimonies of the Fathers in all ages, from the time of Christ, confirming the main points of the Roman Catholic religion, wherein Protestants descent from Catholics. I do challenge you to show the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold; which because you cannot do, it is manifest that you have not the truth, neither are a true Church.  Mr. Walker. 
Well Master Fisher, if this be the best ground which you have to build upon, we shall easily answer you, and make it appear that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be, and that you build on a sandy foundation. I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures, and hewed out of the rock of God's word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine: but I perceive that the best testimony which you have to allege for your Religion, is that book composed by one of your own side, and all you can say for yourself, is as the old Proverb runs; Ask my fellow thief if I be a true man, which you know it stands him upon to affirm whether true or false. As for ●●●●●rius, he is as bold, impudent, and shameless a Pa●●st, as needs put pen to paper; For those testimonies of forged Fathers, and of old Liturgies, which all the learned of your Religion (who have any wit, learning, or dram of modesty appearing in them) have rejected, he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofs without any shame or blushing. If I should for our Religion cite and produce a book of Luther or Calvin, or any other Protestant, you would laugh me to scorn: yea, you reject the books of the Fathers printed or set forth among us, though you could never justly tax or convince any one of us of partial dealing, or of the least wilful falsification. Let me further admonish you, that you show little discretion in bringing humane testimonies, especially of late writers, to maintain your Religion against me, or to confute my Religion; For I am, as you know, a Preacher of the Gospel, one of them whom ye call Protestants, and we do not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, Christ himself being the head corner stone. We do not regard in a controverted point of faith, what any Father or Doctor doth hold, or hath held in former ages; but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles have left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament, and what the Fathers have truly from thence observed. We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture and opinions which are doubtful; but we do (as they desired) deny their testimonies to be grounds of faith. Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses, and let us come to a strict form of disputation about some main points of controversy. If you be pleased to oppose any special article of our faith, I will defend it, or if you will take upon you to answer, I will prove against you, That your father the Pope is Antichrist, That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon: That your doctrine of merit of justification before God by your own works is heretical; And that your Image-worship is damnable idolatry.  Mr. Fisher. 
If you be so forward to dispute, I am for you, and I come for that purpose; But have you no other points to prove, save these, That the Pope is Antichrist, and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon? I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three years ago, when you came to me in the New-prison, belike you spend all your time and study in these questions.  Mr. Walker. 
It is true that I desired to dispute upon these questions four years ago, and then you refused, I hope you have since studied how to defend them, though then you were unprovided. Indeed I do offer these questions first of all to every Priest and jesuit with whom I meet, because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Popery: but you all are as much afraid of these questions as a dog of the whip. I could never yet meet with one of you, which durst undertake to maintain the negative part: For you are as wise as Serpents in your generation: you know by woeful experience, what hard and base & silly shifts Bellarmine, Suarez and others of your most learned jesuits, have been driven to seek, while they labour in writing to answer us in these questions, and how miserably they are confounded, contradicting one another, and every one himself in many things. And this is the cause why you cannot endure to deal with us in these kill points of controversy, wherein you are sure to be overthrown. But if these please you not, do you name any other questions, and you shall find me ready and willing to dispute with you without further delay.  Mr. Fisher. 
I am content: But that we may have some ground to build on; First, I will propound some questions to you in writing, to which I require your answer in writing also, that there may be no mistaking or misreporting hereafter of that which passeth between us.  Mr. Walker. 
If you will set down any question in writing, and write down also your arguments, I will also write my answers to them, but all other kind of questioning I refuse, as a means tending to prolong the time, and keep us off from strict disputation. I remember that when I was with you four years ago, you did trifle away a whole afternoon by ambiguous questions, and could not be drawn at all to disputation.  Mr. Fisher. 
We cannot dispute without some ground laid down and agreed upon: I will therefore first hear propound in writing this question, (than he wrote down as followeth) God the Father sent his Son our Saviour to teach all points of faith necessary to salvation, bidding his Apostles hear him.  Mr. Walker. 
This is no point of controversy between you and us; but if you make it questionable, I answer affirmatively, granting the proposition to be true, do you prove the contrary if you can.  
* Then the jesuit taking the paper, wrote a second proposition, viz.  Mr. Fisher. 
Our Lord said to his Apostles, As my Father sent me, so send I you, he that heareth you heareth me, go teach all Nations, baptising them, etc. and teaching them to observe all things which I have commanded you; behold, I am with you all days until the end of the world.  Mr. Walker. 
To this Master Walker answered when he read it; That he desired an argument, not a new proposition, and urged him either to dispute upon the former question, or else to propound some point of controversy; for he would not be deluded nor spend any more time in trifling and writing down propositions not controverted.  Mr. Fisher. 
If this proposition be not controverted, do you grant it under your hand, and I will upon your owns confession ground a controversy and an argument which shall hold you fast.  Mr. Walker. 
Before you can make an argument, you must agree with me upon some point of controversy, let us therefore know what I shall defend, and what point you will dispute against.  Mr. Fisher. 
I come instantly to the point, if you will grant the last proposition to be true, under your hand, (this being done) he takes the paper and writes the third proposition. This commission of our Saviour to his Apostles, was not only to their persons, and for their lives, but to those which should by them be sent, and should lawfully succeed them in all ages, years, months and days, until the end of the world.  Mr. Walker. 
Master Walker seeing this, refused to answer to any more questions or propositions in word or writing, except it were a proposition disputable; and when the jesuit said that by degrees he meant thus to bring him on to a main point of controversy, upon which he would dispute; Indeed (saith he) you have so promised, and deceived me now three times, I will no longer be held in suspense; and if you can no way come to disputation but by such propositions, I will try whether I can by the same means draw you to some head of controversy: Then taking a paper, he wrote down this proposition: They who teach, hold and maintain doctrines contrary and repugnant to the Scriptures, even the word of God taught by Christ and his Prophets and Apostles in the old and new Testament, are not the true successors of Christ and his Apostles.  Mr. Fisher. 
This assertion the jesuit granted, but would not write down any thing, and still urged Master Walker to grant his third proposition.  Mr. Walker. 
Stay (saith Master Walker) I must first have you to answer a second proposition, before I answer your third; then he wrote down a second to this effect. The Church Teachers and Pastors, who do teach no other doctrine as necessary to salvation, but that, and only that which is taught in the Scriptures by Christ and his Apostles and Prophets, are undoubtedly the true Church of Christ, and the true successors of Christ and his Apostles.  Mr. Fisher. 
To this the jesuit seemed unwilling to answer, till at length being much urged, he for very shame yielded to grant the proposition, by saying, I do not deny it.  Mr. Walker. 
Whereupon Master Walker spoke thus: Now Master Fisher, you have granted me two main grounds, upon which I will dispute, and upon the first I will prove, That the Church of Rome and her Pope and Priests, are not the true Church, nor true successors of Christ and his Apostles. And upon the other I will prove, That the Church of England and her Protestant Pastors are the true Church and successors of Christ and his Apostles.  Mr. Fisher. 
But stay (saith Fisher) let me first have your answer to my third proposition, and then we will come to disputation immediately.  Mr. Walker. 
If I do answer, you will not dispute, because there is no matter of controversy in your proposition. Nevertheless, that you may have no excuse nor colour of delay, I grant your assertion thus understood, viz. That to all those who are sent by the Apostles, and in calling and doctrine lawfully succeed them in all ages, years and days, until the end of the world, Christ gave commission to teach people of every Nation, and to baptise them, and promised to be with them. But if you mean by the last clause cunningly to imply, that there are in all ages, years, months and days, a continued succession of Bishops and Pastors in one and the same visible Chair and Sea, sent by the Apostles, and lawfully succeeding them as in place, so in all points of doctrine; I deny your proposition, and if you please, let this be the question between us, and let it be your part to prove it against me.  Mr. Fisher. 
This answer Master Fisher desired him to write down, which he promised, upon condition Fisher would first write down his answers to the two propositions by him propounded. And after much ado, the jesuit takes the paper, and under the first assertion which he had before granted, viz. That they who teach doctrines contrary to God's word, are not lawful successors of the Apostles, he writes an ambiguous answer in these words: I grant, but Catholics do not so.  Mr. Walker. 
Against this answer Master Walker excepted, that it was an equivocation, and might be understood two ways, either thus; I Fisher, out of my private opinion, or for some purpose, grant this proposition to be true, but it is not granted by Catholics generally; or else thus, I grant that they who teach doctrines contrary to God's word, are not true successors of the Apostles; but Catholics do not so teach: If you mean the first way, and in the first sense, you do but mock us: But if you speak in the latter sense, your answer is more than needs, and is a denying of an assumption which I have not yet expressed, viz. That Catholics do teach doctrines contrary to the Scriptures. If by Catholics you understand all such as hold the true Catholic faith, I do not, neither will charge them with that which you deny before hand. But if by Catholics you understand Papists, your conscience doth accuse you before hand, and I will prove that supposed assumption which you deny, to wit, That the Papists teach doctrines contrary to the Scriptures.  Mr. Fisher. 
I pray you be not so hasty, let us come fairly and easily to another chief thing, unto which I labour to bring you, which will be more material, as you shall see presently; then taking the paper, he writes a fourth proposition in these words: This company of Doctors and Pastors succeeding one another, appointed to instruct people in all ages, and to confirm them in faith, could not perform their duties without being so known in the world, that all men of all ages might have recourse to them, and might learn from them all truth, neither could they be so secret, that all stories should be silent of the Doctors and doctrines taught by them in all ages.  Mr. Walker. 
This proposition when Master Walker had read with an audible voice, he asked the jesuit whether it were his purpose to dispute upon it (which he affirming) he answered, that it was not a fit proposition to be disputed, because it contained a great number of questions and equivocations, and being urged by the jesuit to show his exceptions against it, he noted down these particulars. First, that it is absurd to hold, that all Pastors and Doctors lawfully succeeding the Apostles, were known in the world to all men of all ages; for there be many thousands of such Pastors who were known to none but to the men of the ages in which they lived. Secondly, it is an error to hold that all the men of the ages in which they lived had recourse unto them, and learned of them the truth; for it is sufficient that their own flocks, even the sheep of Christ, did know them and hear their voice. Thirdly, men may be true Pastors lawfully succeeding the Apostles, though they teach not all truth, but only the main points of faith necessary to salvation. Fourthly, such true Pastors may be so secret that all stories may be silent of them, and of their teaching and doctrine. Fifthly, though their names and doctrines were recorded in the stories of those ages, yet the stories now extant may be silent of them; because some Popes, by name Gregory the 7. did corrupt and deface all sorts of records and writings both civil and ecclesiastical, which made against their forged primacy, pride and corrupt doctrine, as Aventine testifies, lib. 5. Annal. Boiorum. By which means many ecclesiastical stories perished, and others are corrupted until this day.  Mr. Fisher. 
To the first of these exceptions, the jesuit yielded, and limited his long speech by adding immediately after the word (ages) this clause (in which they lived.) Concerning the second exception, he asked this question, Whether none but the sheep of Christ did know the true Pastors and hear them? It was answered, That it was enough that they were known and heard by the sheep of Christ: To which Fisher replied, That their persecutors must needs know them, and hear of their doctrine, or else how coula they actually persecute them and their doctrine. Master Walker answered, That their persecutors did not know Christ to be the Lord of life, nor them to be his servants, nor the truth of their doctrine, for than they would not have persecuted them; only such as in persecuting them did sin against the light of the holy Ghost (if there were any such persecutors) they did know them and their doctrine. To the third exception Fisher first yielded, and inserted after these words (to learn from them all truth) this clause (in all the main points necessary to salvation) and then he asked what he did understand by a main point.  
Master Walker answered, That by a main point he understood that which the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament do teach to be necessary to salvation, and require that we should so believe it.  
To the fourth and fifth exceptions he gave no answer, but labouring to decline the mention of them, taketh the paper and writeth down a cavilling demand, concerning the main points necessary to salvation, in these words: Name what particular points these are, or give a general definition, by which all sorts even of Protestants shall agree to be such. Which when Master Walker had read, he answered to this effect.  Mr. Walker. 
Now Mr. Fisher you do show yourself in your colours what you are indeed, and what I have ever since I first knew you suspected you to be, even a very idle wrangling Sophister, unskilful in the art of Logic, and ignorant in the rules of disputation. First, if you demand a general definition of a main point necessary to salvation, that I have given already when I wrote down that it was, that which the infallible Scriptures do teach to be necessary to salvation. But your words are senseless in themselves, and I cannot tell what you mean by this clause (a definition by which all sorts of Protestants shall agree to be such.) This speech savours of distraction: For no sorts of Protestants do go about to make themselves to agree to be main points of truth necessary to salvation, we desire only to know, believe, and teach such points.  Mr. Fisher. 
Fisher thus caught in his own net, had no other way to wind out himself, but only urged Master Walker to name all the particular points which the Scriptures do teach for main points necessary to salvation. To which Master Walker thus answered.  Mr. Walker. 
Indeed I commend your wit and wise providence: for if you could persuade me to undertake the naming of all such particular points, you know it would require more time than till to morrow night, and by this means you should escape without disputation, and sleep quietly in a whole skin this night. But you shall not so escape, For I do appeal to all here present, whether this be not a mere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present. And I do here charge you (if your own conscience doth not inwardly tell you, that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended; or you yourself so unlearned that you are unable to maintain it) that you do without further delay agree to dispute with me upon some main points of controversy between Protestants and Papists. If you refuse, I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard, and so esteem you hereafter at all times.  Mr. Fisher. 
But if I yield to dispute with you, who shall be judge between us?  Mr. Walker. 
The chief judge of all shall be the word of God, and these hearers shall judge of the form and carriage of our disputation, and to whom the victory doth belong.  Mr. Fisher. 
They know not the word of God, neither can you yourself certainly tell which is the true word of God.  M. Walker. 
Yes, I have it here at hand to show (and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octavo without pricks, bound with a Syriac and Greek Testament) Loe (saith he) here is the true word of God, even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament, in the original tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God, and written by his penmen.  Mr. Fisher. 
How do you know that this book is the word of God and the original Scriptures?  Mr. Walker. 
I know that all, not only Protestants but Papists, acknowledge and confess it so to be. First Papists, because Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Church of Rome did set it forth, and Plantine a Catholic Printer did print it, and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholic King of Spain: so that you being a Roman Catholic cannot (except you have cast off all shamefastness) but acknowledge it for the word of God in the original tongues. Secondly, we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this book, that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it.  Mr. Fisher. 
How do you know that Plantine printed this book?  Mr. Walker. 
Lo here the title page, where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp, and the year of the world according to the less account of the jewish Rabbins is here specified (with these words he showed the book and page to Fisher) who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not read, put it from him, as if he had been afraid to look on it. Whereupon Master Walker began to play upon him, and taking advantage of his ignorance, made the company some sport, saying: What Master Fisher, are you a learned jesuit, and one of the Pope's great champions, and yet can you not read this fair print? I cry you mercy, Graecum est non potest legi: yea it is worse than so, it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters, which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadful than conjuring figures. But in good sadness can you not read it? or do you but dissemble, Master Fisher? I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest, and your countenance doth make me so confident of your ignorance, that I will adventure my book upon it, and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it, yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your pains, if you can but read one sentence in it out of the original text. Which offer when Fisher refused, some of the standers by laughed at him, others wondered whether this were Fisher the jesuit, and made a question of it. Master Burton who had promised silence, observing the jesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches, told him, that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended, for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himself from speaking, but not from laughing.  Mr. Fisher. 
The jesuit plunged into this perplexity, thought it best to be gone, and said that his business called him away, he could stay no longer.  Mr. Walker. 
Mr. Walker answered, that this was an idle excuse. For (saith he) you know Master Fisher that this day and hour was appointed by yourself and set apart for disputation, and though my business was great, I was forced to lay all aside for this work, because no other day nor time would be accepted. Therefore it is very unlikely that any business should now call you away, or that you should appoint this time for any other employment, except you came either in hope to find no adversary which durst encounter you, or with purpose, if any appeared, to shift off disputation by some such device. By these and such speeches, as also by the importunity of the standers-by, the jesuit was detained, and falling into the question about the infallible word of God, after many speeches which passed to and fro about the original Scriptures and the translations, which was most authentical, and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from gross errors. Master Walker to cut off all needless discourse about such questions, did very earnestly demand of the jesuit, whether he thought the vulgar Latin translation of the Bible to be the most pure, uncorrupt and authentical edition of the Scriptures, and the true word of God according to the determination of the Council of Trent.  Mr. Fisher. 
Fisher answered, that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God, and the most authentic edition of the Scriptures,  Mr. Walker. 
And though I do much dissent from you in this opinion (saith Master Walker) and do hold that of all translations which are of any esteem among Christians, there is none so full of errors and mistake, even in the judgement of S. Hierome himself, upon whom the Papists falsely father it: yet so far I do approve of it, that I do not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather, teach and confirm out of it all doctrines which are necessary to salvation. For whatsoever necessary truth is omitted in one place by mistranslation, it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same, which are truly and faithfully translated. And here I do make a fair offer, and most equal motion to you before all here present, viz. That I will undertake to make a plain confession of the Protestants faith, and of all the articles of religion (which the Church of England holds necessary to salvation) in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latin Bible without any material alteration at all, upon condition that you (when I have made good my word and promise) will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith, and that all such articles are to be received and embraced for articles of the true religion.  Mr. Fisher. This offer when the jesuit refused to accept, he was much condemned, censured and reproved by the hearers. Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point, and for the escaping of more reproof and censure, he flies back to the general question concerning the word of God, and taking a paper wrote down his assent: 
That the word of God comprehends in it, 1. The Scriptures. 2. Whatsoever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scriptures. And withal he wrote down this question, viz. who must be the judge when the Scriptures are doubtful, and when the question is of the goodness of the consequence. And withal he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the judge, and that when the Church hath judged, no private man must oppose.  Mr. Walker. 
Mr. Walker on the other side professed, that for the goodness of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logic. And for the sense and meaning of the doubtful places, the Scripture is the best expositor of itself, and the plain places of it do give light to the places which are obscure, and do best expound them. And therefore every private person, and the whole Church itself in matters doubtful must fly to the Scriptures themselves, as the last judge of controversies in matters of faith and salvation. And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst, in this controversy, stand to the judgement of the ancient Fathers, such as S. Augustine, Chrysostome, and others of that rank.  Mr. Fisher. 
The jesuit answered, that he knew the Fathers were on his side, and did altogether fly to the judgement of the Church in matters of faith, when any controversy did arise.  Mr. Walker. 
That (said Master Walker) is most untrue, & the contrary shall be showed presently out of their own writings, set forth and printed by Papists: then calling for two volumes, the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew, the other S. Austin's third Tome, both printed and set forth by Papists, as the inscription did show, and Fisher could not deny: First he turns to the Homily of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel, Math. 24. (When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, then let him that is in judea fly to the mountains) and shows the Author's exposition, which was to this effect: That when Antichrist rules and bears sway in the holy place the Church, than all professors of Christian religion who are in the true judaea, that is, Christianity, must fly only to the Scriptures, for they are the mountains upon which the Church is founded; according to that saying of David, Her foundations are upon the holy mountains, Psal. 87. 1. And in those days when Antichrist sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops, and overrules all, works miracles and makes great show of godliness in hypocrisy, than the Church cannot be known by succession of Pastors, nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers, as in former ages, but only by the Scriptures.  Mr. Fisher. 
The answer which the jesuit gave to this testimony▪ was, that this could not be proved to be the work of Chrysostome.  Mr. Walker. 
More shame (said Master Walker) it is to your Doctors and Printers, who cite places out of this book under the name of Chrysostome, and do print and set it forth in his name: but suppose it be not the work of Chrysostome, yet you cannot deny it to be the work of an ancient writer of great antiquity, and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages. Neither shall you so escape; For lo here in the third book of S. Augustine, De doctrinâ Christianâ, which was never questioned, but is generally received and acknowledged by all, it is most plainly taught by the learned Father, That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is, in words which have many significations, to observe the scope and circumstances of the place, and thereby to expound them; and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plain places of the Scriptures, which speak of the same matter and subject. Then he showed the words to Fisher, and read them in Latin to him, who could not deny them, but heard them read with much impatiency, as his gestures showed; but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present, the jesuit could not contain himself, but said; Away, this is nothing to the purpose, we will examine these things some other time. And when words would not prevail, he reacheth with his hands to the book, and did strive to shut it, that the words might not be read; notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand, and read the words, which when the people present did hear and see, they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced; some of them told him that his own conscience did witness against him, and all condemned his impudency joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacy.  
The jesuit thus condemned on all sides, and not able to outface the matter any longer, did make show as if he stood upon coals, and would gladly be gone, and his Disciple who brought him thither, being ready to help him at a dead lift, when he saw him so confounded, calls upon him to remember the place which they were to go unto, whereupon they made haste to depart, but by much importunity were stayed, and Master Walker still urging him to propound and prosecute one argument upon any question of controversy before they parted; he answered, that now there was no time, but promised to dispute at some other time. At length, out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the jesuit, he offered to him this advantage, That if for the justifying of any point or article of the Romish religion, he would make a perfect syllogism in mood and figure, and presently upon the denial of any of the premises, second it with a prosyllogisme, not failing in form, to prove and conclude the proposition denied, the point or article so far proved, should for this one time be yielded to him, and he should have liberty to make his best advantage of it, for the justifying of any other point of Popery which he would presently dispute upon. But all this could not prevail to wring one syllogism from him, which made the hearers think that he had no art nor skill to make an argument: And that they did not think amiss nor err in their opinion, appeared by that which followed; for although he durst not undertake, during the time of the conference, to make one syllogism, or to propound an argument in form, yet at the breaking up, when he was ready to depart, he took his paper and wrote down and gave to Master Walker, desiring him to answer at leisure this argument which followeth, and which is yet to be showed under his own hand, though perhaps to men of judgement it may seem incredible that any Priest or jesuit of his name and note, should be so absurd, as to propound for a syllogism such a confused speech, without form, mood or figure: It runs word for word thus; That Church which beginning with Christ, and his Apostles, hath visibly professed in all ages that faith (which Christ and his Apostles taught) without change in any point necessary to salvation, is that Church whose judgement is to be followed, and no private man must oppose his judgement against it. There must be one such Church in all ages. But no such Protestants can be showed. This syllogism no doubt will appear (as it is in form) very absurd to all the judicious, who shall hear of it, or read it: And yet the author thereof (if we consider either the time when, or the manner how he propounded it) was therein far more absurd and ridiculous. For he delivered it for an argument of such force and strength, that it was not to be answered but at leisure, and upon much study and meditation. Yea, he wrote it down, after that every point and tittle therein, which requires any answer, had been by the present adversary Master Walker, there at that time abundantly answered, to the full satisfaction of the hearers (as they confessed.) For after Master Walker had fairly offered, and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were between them, might be tried, first, by the original Scriptures; secondly, by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers; thirdly, by disputation in strict syllogisms: and all these were refused and rejected by the jesuit, as is before related; They who were present, wondering at him, and some of them ask him, whether he had any ground of his faith and religion, besides his own sense and will.  Mr. Fisher. 
He answered, that he would be judged by the Church. For (said he) when the Church hath judged, no private man must oppose his judgement. And this I made a Protestant Preacher confess heretofore in a conference, and that under his own hand.  Mr. Walker. 
Master Walker answered, that the Church of God never judgeth (as it is a true Church) but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures; and as it is said of a just judge in a Commonwealth, that he is Lex loquens, so it is said of every true and faithful Church, that it is Scriptura loquens, The speaking Scripture. Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement, that is, his own private opinion: for all singular opinions of private men are vain errors; if they were true they could not be singular, seeing all truths necessary to salvation taught in the Scriptures, are common to all the faithful. Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named, did grant nothing but the truth, from which you can pick no advantage to help you; for you, when you appeal to the judgement of the Church, do in many things differ from this truth. First, by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome, that whore of Babylon, your own mother; and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion, is as if a Bastard should seek to be judged by the whore his mother, whether he be lawfully begotten, which he knows she will affirm and judge him to be for her own credit. Secondly, you rest on her judgement in the main principles of Religion, which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures, and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate, being grown up to years of discretion, and well read in the Scriptures, needeth the judgement of any other judge, besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart. Thirdly, when you speak of the judgement of the Church, you understand such a judging power and authority, as doth by determining points of faith and manners, make them true and lawful, whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coin new Scriptures, or to make articles of faith, but only the gift of revealing, propounding and expounding of the word of God, and the articles of Religion, which Christ hath commended to the faithful. Fourthly, you require in the true Church, and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties, as cannot be found in any particular Church on earth, viz. that it hath continued in the same place, state and condition, visibly and sensibly professing from the days of Christ and his Apostles, the same faith in all points necessary to salvation; whereas by consent of all stories, and by manifest experience it is plain, that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Roman Christians, as justification by faith without works, and by imputation of Christ's righteousness, Rom. 3. & 4. & 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church. And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils, as forbidding to marry, and abstinence from meats, etc. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessary to be believed and obeyed for salvation, by some persons.  Mr. Fisher. 
I do hold that the Church is the chief judge of all controversies, in the matters of Religion, and that all private persons must submit to it, and not seek to the Scriptures; First, because the Scriptures are translated out of the original tongues before that private men can read or understand them, and the translations are not to be believed nor received, but by the authority and approbation of the Church. Secondly, the Church gives such authority to the Scriptures, that without it we are not bound to believe them, nor receive them for God's word, according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine, Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas; I would not believe the Gospel unless I were thereunto moved by the authority of the Church.  Mr. Walker. 
And I answer, that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church; for all other particular Churches have as much authority in this kind, yea, more, because she is more impure and corrupt than any of them, and hath least ability or sincerity to judge of the truth. And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome (of which he was no member) but rather the Church of Milan in which he was converted. Secondly, I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited, speaks by way of supposition, and not by way of asseveration, as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place. Thirdly, it is true that over-weake Christians, who are babes in Christ, the Church in which they live and are baptised, hath such authority (as you speak of) namely, to translate the Scriptures, and to commend them for the word of God, and for truth, and they are bound to give credit to it therein, and not to oppose their own fancies and conceits. But when Christians are grown up in grace and knowledge, and have felt by their own experience, the effects and work of the Spirit in their souls wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures, and when not only by the inward testimony of the Spirit, testifying that they are the truth; but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spiritual strength which they thereby and from thence receive, do sensibly perceive that God's hand is with them, and he doth in them speak to their consciences: then they need no more the judgement of the Church, nor of any external judge, to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word; for though all professors in the world, or an Angel from heaven should preach and affirm the contrary, they will not assent unto them; but rather count them as Anathema and accursed, as the Apostle commands, Gal. 1. 8.  Mr. Fisher. 
They who are true Catholics, and rest upon the judgement of the Church, have as much assurance and certainty of the truth of the Scriptures, as is needful, from the testimony of the Church; for they build upon the rock against which the gates of hell cannot prevail: But you teach men to build their faith on their own private spirit, and you are lead every one of you by his own conceit, which is the cause of so many sects and schisms and several opinions among you, every one assuming to himself presumptuously such an infallibility of judgement in matters of faith, as doth not belong to any private man, neither can be attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians.  Mr. Walker. 
You show yourself by this speech of yours to be not only a mere carnal man, such a one as hath never felt the lively work of God's spirit in his heart, nor tasted of the heavenly gift; but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkening that light which by nature is in you; which I will evidently show diverse ways. First, you prefer the external testimony of the Church, before the internal testimony of God's spirit, and make it a more sure rock to build on, than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth. Secondly, you seem to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians, and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost, and from that gift and grace and inward work of the spirit, by which they are illuminated to see, and persuaded to believe the truth of God's word every one particularly in his own soul and with his own heart, contrary to the Scriptures, which teach, that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head, Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithful member of his body the Church, Rom. 8. 9 in such sort, that they are said, by that one spirit to be baptised into one body, whether they be jews or Gentiles, 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them, 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19 and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith, 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth, joh. 16. Thirdly▪ you call the holy spirit of Christ (which we challenge in Christ by a common right, as common to all the elect, and which doth work the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian) by the name of a private spirit; wherein you show most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnal eyes, and possessing your carnal heart. For that spirit which flows from that one common fountain of all goodness, even God the Father of all, and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediator and Saviour of the world his Son jesus Christ; which is also the same in Christ the head, and in the whole universal body of the elect and faithful, and doth work in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth, and the same common faith in the same promised seed: And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God; but only by that common means, even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth, and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament; this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit. For it is the property of the Holy Ghost, the true Comforter, to come from the Father in the Son's name, and to teach the truth, and work faith by the common rule and means of the Scriptures, and not to speak of himself new things which Christ had not spoken before; but only to speak what he hath heard, and so to receive of Christ's, and to give to us; and to lead us into all truth by calling to our minds the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures, and by writing it in our hearts, as our Saviour plainly testifieth, joh. 16. 13, 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to ourselves, by the common right of the elect in Christ, and he it is who doth testify to our spirits, that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word, and doth transform our souls into the obedience of them, and doth work in us that same faith by which all the Saints have been justified and saved from the beginning of the world. But now as I have showed you, which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithful, and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour, and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit: So I demand of you, whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures, which you build on the testimony and authority of the Church. If you say that you have no such spirit, but are led every one by his own sense; then are you carnal and sensual men, not spiritual by your own confession: If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome, and causing you to believe that the Pope cannot err, and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you, are therefore God's word, than I would know of you, why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit, as well as that which works in every Protestant.  Mr. Fisher. 
Your spirit is a private spirit, because he leads every one of you into several opinions and private interpretations of Scripture, which have never been received in the Church, nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors.  Mr. Walker. 
If you have no more to say for yourself than this, I shall easily convince you by your own mouth, and prove from your own words, that the spirit of Papists (not the spirit of Protestants) is indeed a private spirit. For first our spirit persuades us to receive for God's infallible word no other Scriptures, but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers, and of all sorts of Christians, even of you Papists yourselves, are held for Canonical: but you Romanists receive diverse Scriptures for Canonicali, which by S. Hierome and other Ancients, and by all the reformed Churches are and have been censured for Apocrypha; and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we. Secondly, we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithful from the beginning, even God himself, who is prima veritas, the first truth, and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed; and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles, who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament, and to all Christians in the time of the Gospel. But you build upon a new rock, even the Pope of Rome, whom ye call the universal Bishop sitting in Peter's chair, a foundation which all the faithful forefathers before the coming of Christ were ignorant of, and never heard or dreamt. Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for diverse hundred of years after Christ acknowledge any such name or title; but even Gregory the Great, a Bishop of Rome, who lived 560. years after Christ, condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner, as by his epistles is manifest. Thirdly, though diverse sects of Anabaptists, Familists, and Enthusiasts, men of fanatical spirits, have grown up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches, who follow their own private fancies, imaginations, and diverse inspirations of Satan, which have no warrant from the Scriptures, but are contrary to the written word: yet they are not of us, we renounce their society, and expel them out of our Churches, and say of them as the Apostle did, 1 joh. 2. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures, which Luther, Calvin, and other learned men have lately found out, and do find out daily, which were not known of old nor commonly received; we embrace them not for novelty, nor because they are singular, nor for the authority of the expositors themselves; but because we find them to be agreeable to the original text, and to other plain places of the same Scriptures, and to contain the old and common doctrine of Christ, and his Apostles and Prophets, which hath been believed and embraced in all ages of all true Christians: But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship, Canonization of Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, Indulgences, Transubstantiation, Massing, sacrificing for the dead, and such like, they are builded upon private visions, apparitions, dreams, imaginations and fancies of Friars, and upon singular inspirations of Monks, and other doting persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions, so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanatical spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts, as plain reason and experience do show.  Mr. Fisher. 
The jesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things, made great show of a desire to break off, and to be gone, only he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit; by which particular Christians are enabled to know and believe the Scriptures, and to be fully persuaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them: And as for you (saith he to Master Walker) it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discern the word of God, and doth more assure you of the truth thereof, than the public testimony of the Church. But pardon us if we hold it doubtful, seeing we have no more but your own word for it.  Mr. Walker. 
Yea and I will have your word professing the same of yourself also, or else I will make you appear to all here present, to be void of all true Christianity. First, you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to profess and to proclaim the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word, and how I come to know it by the work of his spirit. Secondly, I will urge you upon your conscience, to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you. That which I can with a good conscience testify of myself, I hold to be no singular gift, but a grace common to all true Christians, and it is this: First, I confess that I was borne of Christian parents, and my father and mother who tenderly loved me, and were also of me dear beloved, did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancy, and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God; I being not able to judge of it myself, believed it so to be upon their word and authority for the reverend respect and esteem which I had of them. Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church, and to hear that word read and expounded by learned Preachers, and told me that I ought to believe what I heard out of it preached in the Church; and so I did: for I believed the Preachers publishing that word, in so much that partly by their exhortations, and partly out of a care which I had of my soul's health, and in a desire of God's favour and blessings which were thereunto promised, I did even from my youth give my mind to read and learn the Scriptures. Howsoever I must confess, that at the first and in my childish years, I did find but little savour & sweetness in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures; such as David's Psalms, Salomon's Proverbs, the books of the Prophets, the Epistles of the Apostles, and such like; yea though I believed that they were God's word: yet by reason of my natural corruption, I did take more pleasure and delight in Poetical fables and feigned histories, which did feed my corruption, and were a kind of fuel to my sinful lusts and vanities. Nevertheless whether it was mine own conscience urging me, or the spirit of God which moved me, I cannot certainly tell; but sure I am, that still I did upon the testimony and authority of my Parents and Teachers, reverence the Scriptures as God's word, and force myself to read them contrary to my rebellious nature; and at length when I came to more ripe years: I found that the word which was most opposite and distasteful to my sinful corruption, did work upon me most strongly and effectually, which is an infallible token of God's hand in it, and a sure sign of the divine power and supernatural excellency thereof, I felt the promises of the Gospel, and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish, begin by God's grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions, and to be most profitable by strengthening me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations, by mortifying my fleshly corruptions, and by reforming my life; so that I began to rejoice in the Scriptures, more than in any earthly treasures, and did devote myself to the study of them; and now partly upon the testimony of God's spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit, and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcoming my natural corruptions, as it were against my will; and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majesty shining in them, I am so confident and assured, that they are Gods most holy and infallible word, that my conscience tells me, I had rather forgo all the world, and my dearest blood and bodily life, than deny the truth of them. Yea if the Church and Teachers which persuaded me first to receive them for God's word, should fall away by apostasy, forswear and deny them, or any part of them; or if any Angel from heaven should teach the contrary, I would count them accursed, as the Apostle enjoines me, Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers, as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ: Lo I have heretofore believed the Scriptures to be God's word upon your testimony and authority; but now I see with mine own eyes, I have the inward testimony of God's spirit, and feel by powerful effects and by experience in myself▪ that these Scriptures are Gods holy word, and the power of God to salvation. This (I freely confess) is my knowledge and persuasion of God's word, which by these degrees I have attained unto. And I daily have experience and evident signs of the same grace in all other Christians, with whom I do converse familiarly. Now therefore in the second place, I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly before this people here present, whether you have experience of the same grace in you, and whether you have by these degrees o● any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures?  Mr. Fisher. 
What is that to you, whether I have or have not? Or what if I hold it needless to assume so much unto myself?  Mr. Walker. 
It is very necessary that you should do either the one or the other. And whether you confess or deny, you are taken and ensnared. If you say that you have experience of this grace in you, and of this gift and testimony of the spirit, than you are plainly convinced by your own mouth of wilful blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, in that you have denied, contradicted, derided, and scoffed at that work of his in the Saints of God, of which work you have experience in your own soul. But if you confess that you never felt this order and work of grace in you, and that your faith is nothing but an implicit believing of the Scriptures upon the Church's testimony and authority, without any sense or experience of the power and virtue thereof in your soul, and that you blindly and desperately cast yourself on the Church, without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scriptures, or any inward testimony of the spirit; than it is certain (to say the best) that you are yet a babe in Christianity, and Christ jesus is not yet form in you. Yea I fear that you are worse than so: for (if after so many years study of Divinity, and so long continuance in the public calling of a Priest, and teacher of others) you be found not only destitute and void of this necessary grace of a Christian; but also an opposer and gainesayer of it, and a scorner of such as profess it; we cannot but deem you a very Atheist and son of Belial, in whom is verified, that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions, that they should believe lies; and be damned, not believing the truth, but having pleasure in unrighteousness. Also that which is testified by S. jude of such reprobates, who are of old ordained to condemnation, viz. That they speak evil of those things which they know not, and whatsoever things they know naturally, as beasts which are without reason in those things they corrupt themselves, and that they are corrupt trees, and without fruit, twice dead and plucked up by the roots, and raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame, and wand'ring stars to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.  Mr. Fisher 
You are very sharp and uncharitable in your judgement; but it is no matter what you say; neither will I argue more with you at this present, for it is time for us to depart.  Mr. Walker. 
I do not judge you but by your own mouth, and by the infallible word of God, and from henceforth I leave you to the judgement of God, and to the censure of all here present, who have heard you at this time; only thus much I must tell you, that I do manifestly discern by your carriage, speeches, and behaviour, your evil conscience, and that you do dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth, and factiously cleave to the Romish religion. For all here present have seen that you refuse, and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures, or Fathers, or disputation, and reason, or by the spirit of God, which you would never do so openly to your shame, if your conscience did not tell you, that they are all against you in the special articles of your religion wherein you descent from us.  
To this diverse of them who were present gave their assent, and professed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher, wondering that one so vain and ridiculous, as he showed himself, should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man, before any understanding hearers; or that any should be either so foolish and blind, as to be seduced by him, or so impudent and void of judgement, as to give him the name and report of a learned man, or to number him among subtle disputants. And one among the rest calling unto the jesuit, asked him very earnestly, whether he were indeed that Fisher the jesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King, which when he acknowledged;  
Surely (said the man) I should never have believed it if any other had told me so; for it could never have sunk into my mind, that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous, as you have here showed yourself. For I see that neither the Original Scriptures, nor your own translation of them, nor the Fathers, nor disputation and argument are of any account with you. Do you think that any man will be so foolish, as to believe you, who have no ground but your own word and will? But now I am glad that you have given me just occasion, as to abhor your religion more than ever before, and to esteem you a vain wrangler of no judgement: so also to stop the mouth of some of my kindred, who are of your religion, and great admirers of your person, and praisers of your learning, by reporting and testifying unto them concerning you, what I have seen with mine eyes, and heard with mine ears this day.  
But the thing which did most astonish the beholders was, the desperate behaviour of the Popish Novice, the procurer of this meeting, who did in the time of this conference most lively express the slavish nature of a seduced Roman Catholic, to whom God hath sent strong delusion, to cleave to lies, and to reject the truth. For he did most manifestly show, (as the standers by well observed) that he came with a full purpose and resolution, and an heart and forehead hardened to scoff, deride and gainsay whatsoever was said against the mind of his ghostly father Fisher the jesuit, whether good or bad; and to extol and admire with most intemperate noise and clamour, whatsoever Fisher did aver, without regard of right or wrong, truth or falsehood. In so much, that one time when Master Walker had spoken something which seemed to give content to the hearers, and they openly applauded, and the Novice (as his manner was) scoffing at the speech, said to his younger brother, and others near unto him, that he never heard a more absurd and foolish reason, and that any child might answer it: Master Walker overhearing, urged him to tell wherein the absurdity and foolishness of his reason did consist, and what it was: But he was not able to repeat one word, so that all the hearers laughed, and condemned him for an headstrong fool, in speaking evil of that, which he neither knew, nor cared to understand. But all this could not bridle his tongue, nor make his impudent face ashamed. For a little after, when Master Fisher the jesuit was speaking something, which Master Walker seemed to sleight, and to smile at, the popish Novice spoke out in a passion more loud than ordinary to his brothers, and others about him: Lo there is an argument to the purpose, which I warrant you can never be answered by the best of your Ministers; let him answer it if he can. Which Master Walker noting, turned once more to the Novice, and desired him to repeat that strong argument, or if he could not do that, to tell the meaning or the matter of it; but he was not able to repeat a word, nor to tell what was the matter in hand, which made the beholders astonished at his desperate impudency and wilful blindness; in so much that some sharply rebuked him to his face, others blamed Fisher for nuzling him up, and suffering him to go on in such notorious impudency and wilful blindness, and diverse did not stick to say, that they never saw nor heard of such a dangerous example, and that undoubtedly they perceived this Novice to be so devilishly addicted and devoted to his Master Fisher, that if Fisher would blaspheme the name of jesus Christ, this Novice would justify his blasphemy, and maintain it unto death. And thus the conference ended. But at the breaking up, the jesuit gave in writing to be answered at leisure, the confused speech before mentioned. And Master Walker wrote down an argument, which he gave to him to be considered and directly answered in writing upon mature deliberation. The sum of the Argument was this.  


That Church which hath the chief properties of the great whore of Babylon, mentioned Revel. 17. is undoubtedly that great whore, and the Church of Antichrist.  
The present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope, hath those properties,  
ergo it is the great whore.   

The assumption confirmed.  
These following are the chief properties of the great whore. First, she must be such a Church as being once most famous and renowned over all the faithful Spouse of Christ, hath by degrees fallen away into spiritual whoredom, that is, Idolatry and Image-worship: for the Scriptures do never style by the name of whore any City or Church, but such as thus fall away.  
Secondly, she must still hold her visible succession of Bishops in the same place and Sea, and profess herself the chief spouse of Christ, while she commits Idolatry in the Churches of Christ, and mingles it with his outward and verbal worship, and while he doth by persecution sacrifice to her God Molech, such children, as she, by means of the Scriptures and some parts of his worship, which she still after a sort retaineth, hath begotten and borne to Christ.  
Thirdly, she must be the mother of whoredoms, by assuming to herself the power to canonize for Saints whom she pleaseth, and to authorise the worship of them and their Images: and by obtruding upon the Churches of other nations, Cities and Countries her forms of idolatrous worship.  
Now there is no Church or City in the world which hath, or can have these properties, but only the present Church and Sea of Rome. 1. For she was for faith renowned in all the world, as Saint Paul, Rom. 1. and many of the ancient Fathers in their writings do show. 2. And she now continuing her visible succession of Bishops ever since the Apostles, in the same place and Sea, is become a worshipper of Images, which is Idolatry, as all the world may see and observe. 3. And though she doth challenge to herself the authority to canonize Saints, and to authorise all Image-worship, going a whoring from Christ her first love, after his pretended Vicar the Pope, and his superstitions, and obtruding upon all nations her abominations: yet she still glories in the name of the chief spouse of Christ, and under show and colour of zeal and love to him, doth persecute and murder such godly men as (being converted to Christ by those means of Christianity which she still retaineth) do reprove and rebuke her for Idolatry, superstition, and other vices; as jerusalem did when she was a great spiritual whore and adultress, Ezech. 16. Therefore the present Church of Rome, now subject to the Pope, hath the chief properties of the great whore of Babylon, and by consequence is that great Babylonish whore, and the Church of Antichrist:    
This argument being to this effect delivered in writing to the jesuit, he departed, and hath not yet returned an answer. Only he sent within a few days after to Master Walker, by his disciple above mentioned, certain propositions which he commonly carries about him as the chief weapons of his warfare, and by which he doth provoke and challenge all Protestant Divines with whom he doth meet in any place.  
FINIS.