A DIALOGUE BETWIXT A SECULAR PRIEST, AND A LAY GENTLEMAN.  
Concerning some points objected by the jesuitical faction against such Secular Priests, as have showed their dislike of M. Blackwell and the jesuits proceed.  
Printed at Rheims. MDCI   

The Preface to the Reader.  
AMongst many Letters and Treatises that have come unto my hands concerning the matters in question betwixt the Secular Priests and the jesuits: one of most moment, pith, and substance (in mine opinion) is this ensuing Dialogates discourse. Which by so much the more meriteth my poor commendation in gracing it with a general Preface: by how much as it is in a sort an Abstract, Compendium, or a Brief of all, and the most important matters that are in controversy betwixt us and the said Span. or jesuitical faction. For (omitting other particulars) you have here exquisitely handled, The great contention about superiority arrogated to the jesuits over the Secular Priests: you have here discussed, The question about Schism; and the unlearned, but very malicious libels of Fa. Lyster the jesuit, covertly confuted. You have here decided, The case of obedience and disobedience; and, what ignorant obloquy the common sort of Catholics have the Secular Priests in, for they know not what themselves, but a forgery filled with jesuitical lying lips, which hath given it a glass of a stainless die, in a senseless conceit of infallible truth, to rest in the bare words of a wretch unworthy the naming, for the honour of Priesthood mightily prejudiced by him. You have here set down, The causes of the jesuits double diligence in defending the Archpriest; together with their many unhonest, uncharitable, irreligious, unpriestly practices for a supremacy. You have here insinuated unto you, The jesuitical unspeakable pride, ambition, envy, malice, extortion, cruelty, and above all, their more intolerable backbiting tongues for invectives against whom they hate, than ever had Ovid, Horace, or any other malignant detractor, scold, or Cynical slanderer. In few, you have here explained, The grounds of all the jesuitical calumnies, defamations, and injuries, wherewith their apparators, summoner's, and brokers have and do still vex, torment, and crucify Christ his servants with their tongues, in as merciless a pursuit as the common people of the jews (at the Scribes and pharisees instigation, suggestion, and egging forward) pursued our Lord and master jesus Christ himself, on earth amongst them. These with many the like points of importance are here very learnedly treated of: whereby to give all Catholics (as well priests that are not of the deepest reach: as also and most especially the laity, both men and women, marvelously seduced, blinded, and led into error by the jesuitical faction) to understand, what may do them good, if they list to accept of it in these dangerous times of our common calamities: how and wherein they are to censure or suspend their judgement, until they hear the case decided: and who they are, scil. the secular priests or the jesuits, that have most offended the state, prejudiced both Pope and Prince, given greatest scandal, and incurred the highest displeasure, with desert of sharpest punishment to be inflicted upon them at the hands of God and man. And for to give the devout Catholic reader a little taste for an antepast of this ensuing discourse, I desire nothing more than that which the noble Senator desired of king Auener his sovereign, to wit, that all passion, affection, and partial doom set aside, choler, hastiness, and the fury of that part and third portion of and in man, called pars irascibilis, shut up in prison, committed to close keeping, in silence for the time; and reason set on the throne of justice, in the court of a good conscience, to judge of all things as they are in their own proper kind, uprightly weighed in the balance of equity and justice, without collusion in the matter, sophistication in the worth or falsehood in the weights, unequally proportioned: to consider with me these few points following, even for God's love, for the reverend regard all true Catholics have or aught to have to every anointed priest, and for their own virtuous intents sake, as desirous not wittingly and willingly to be led away with error, nor to conceive amiss of well meant endeavours.  
The first calumniation here handled, is Disobedience, laid to the secular priests charge, by the seditious jesuits: wherein these points are to be considered: first, how that these two disjunctive consorts, Obedience, and Disobedience, do the one of them follow the other by as necessary a sequel as the shadow doth the body, when either the objects they both respect, or else the subiests wherein they are inherent, stand in opposition by contrary qualities, properties, or motions: verbi gratia: A man serving two masters at once, the one as Emperor of the sea in the field of war; the other as high Constable, Seneschal, or Lord Chancellor of the Realm, etc. in the land of peace: If these two command simul & semel, an act to be acted by their said servant, agreeing to their place, office, and calling; the obedience to the one must needs infer a disobedience to the other, in that same action. But if withal these two great commanders be adversaries: then is the case most clear. And this was the cause why our Saviour said that Nemo potest duobus dominis servire, etc. And by consequent than it may be inferred by an argument made by way of comparison, That it is impossible to be obedient to the See Apostolic, but that by necessary sequel, the same observant must disobey Master Blackwell the Archpriest: And the reason is: for that our disobedience in the case proposed as in controversy betwixt us and him together, with his great masters the jesuits, consists in this, scil. That we would admit of no innovation, or new institution, or authority, which is not conformable to holy Apostolical, Ecclesiastical, Canonical custom decree and order in elections, without his Holiness special Bull and Breve, for allowing, ratifying, and confirming of the same. But Master Blackwels' authority was in that degree of opposition, in many points contrary to the church's Cannons and Apostolical order: Ergo, the obedience to the See Apostolic in resistance of him as an Archp. at the first: must needs be an act of disobedience to him, in not acceptance of him as our lawful superior. Again, in another sense, our obedience in the foresaid case in controversy, consists in this, scil. That we would not admit of any such authority as might impeach us of any disloyalty by act, word, or thought, in things wherein our dutiful obeisance was requisite, or whereby we might be justly said to have stained our religion with treason, or entangled our priestly function with princes affairs: but this authority of Master Blackwels', hath drawn him and the jesuits together, with all the confederates, conspirators, abettors, and aiders of him and them in it, within the compass of treason, by reason of the platform which is for invasion; and within the compass of a praemunire, by reason of his presumed authority, to make laws and exercise jura regalia sive in spirituliabus sive in temporalibus: Ergo, our obedience to her Majesty, in resistance of the jesuitical Archpriest, with detestation of all such unnatural plots, drifts, and intendments, as were approved to lie close couched in his authority, being so much the greater, by how much as the said traitorous pretences were masked with a seeming religious zeal; must needs be an act of disobedience to the said Archpriest and his fellows (subjects of Father Parsons, as Garnet and others) in the highest degree of contempt, that ambition frustrated of aspiring hopes, can imagine to have possibly been offered unto them. Secondly, there occurreth then also to be well weighed, the difference betwixt a subordinate and a supreme authority to command, and therewith also the like difference to obey. For although obedience be due in all inferiors to their superiors: yet, with this proviso by custom, practice, course, and order of all laws, scil. That if the inferior subject be wronged by any subordinat official, or magistrate, he may always appeal for justice from that subordinate court and authority to a higher office and officer above the precedent incumbent: and so in order from one to another, until he come to the highest supreme or sovereign in chief. And so we say that in spiritualibus obedience is due in every parishioner to his Pastor, but yet in order, under his Bishop: of every Diocesean to the Bishop of that Diocaeces, etc. but yet in order, under the Pope or universal Bishop. And again, in temporalibus obedience is due in every inferior subject to the meanest officer placed in authority under his sovereign, but yet in order, first, to all such as are subordinate one under another to the ordinary justices of the peace, but yet in order, to these under the high Commissioners, and to these in order: to the Lords of the Honourable privy Council: and to them all in order under the sovereign or supreme Majesty: and then by consequent the jesuits and their Archpresbiteran or Spanish faction inveighing against the Secular Priests, for appealing to the See Apostolic for justice in spiritualibus and to the regal throne of sacred Majesty in defence apologetical of their innocency in temporalibus, do pervert all laws, customs, and orders, and arrogate to themselves a dignity, pre-eminency, and authority above both Pope and Prince: and are thereby guilty of high treason, with many blasphemies breathed out by the ignorant multitude upon this occasion against them both. Thirdly, there doth here occur to be considered, the nature, quality, and condition of those acts which are to be enacted, executed, and performed under obedience to that legifer, promulgator, or other commander over his subjects. For that, such may the act be in itself, as no power on earth may lawfully command it: and if there do, yet ought it not, neither may it (without incurring mortal sin) be obeyed. For example, If either Pope or Prince do command their subjects or subject to commit incest with their own mother, or to murder their parents, or to commit any other act, which in itself is evil, and as we say, intrinsice malum: no dispensation, pardon, nor placard, can ever make that act to be justifiable and good, although it may be forgiven before God and man, quia miserecordia ejus super omnia opera ejus. And seeing God can forgive more than man can offends then a fortiori, man's offence to man, may and is more easily forgiven. conformably then hereunto, for as much as the Pope himself may be lawfully resisted and disobeyed in causes temporal: especially, when the matter concerns the utter subversion of a whole Commonwealth: nay, of many mighty kingdoms (as this platform laid by the jesuits, doth aim at no less, in suggestion to his Holiness for the Spaniards invasion:) therefore doth it necessarily follow, that this act of obedience to our Sovereign, as we are English subjects, in defence of her royal person and our native land, doth take away all the least sin or offence that can be imagined by our disobedience to the same See Apostolic for so doing and actual resistance, made against his Holiness, or any foreign power that should come with hostile hand to pierce this Realm. Nay, seeing it was oracled from those divine lips that were blasphemy to think they could either err, dissemble, or possibly lie, scil. that Reddenda sunt Caesari quae sunt Caesaris, etc. And seeing that Maxim holds irrefragably sure, that non est faciendum malum ut inde eveniat bonum (positis ponendis inter bonum & malum:) I say then that it were a sin, and a most great and grievous breach of the law of God, of Nature, and of Nations; and he or she to be holden for traitors, that under any pretence should occasionate the conquest of their native land, or (standing as the State of England doth this day) should not defend it, dentibus & ensibus & usque ad sanguinem, even while one drop of blood were left in his body. This Hypocritical show and vain vaunt of religion, together with the jesuits masked pretence of restoring the Catholic Roman faith, are as far wide from the matter or any likelihood of the Church's flourish by that bloody means, as the conversion of a soul is impossible, after it is once out of this mortal life. Thus than you see what a vile, malicious, and most sottish, cozening, and senseless slander it is, that the jesuits and their seditious brokers have raised of the Secular Priests and other Catholics, that will not rub on their lofty bank of ambition and unnatural aspiring conspiracy: every one, lad, and lass, tag and rag; and as well the ignorant as those of more wit, but no less malice, upbraiding priests, with disobedience to their Superior, when they neither know what obedience nor disobedience is, nor when, to whom, or wherein it is, or is not due. Yea, so senseless they are herein, That if either the Pope and the Church, or her Majesty and the State, would take them at the worst: they might all be justly condemned for erroneous and traitorous persons, by their own censure applied in the premises to these two contraries.  
The second Slander or calumniation here handled, is the infamies, obloquys, and reproachful words in passages given out by the jesuitical fastion against the secular priests. And for that I verily think neither Zoilus, Aristarch, Timon, or other Misanthropos, ever equalled, or else was to be compared with a jesuit in the damnable art of detraction or envy: therefore do these points occur herein to be duly considered of every devout Catholic. First, what great contempt these wicked men have brought Priesthood into, by this most ungodly means: which I think there is no ancient Catholic in England this day, of any compassionate religious mind, whose heart doth not bleed to behold and to think on the difference betwixt the reverend regard had in times past, and at this present, as well by one priest of and towards another, as by the Catholic Laity in general to all priests, without this newfangle Pharisaical most dangerous exception of persons, etc. For what Catholic, before these jesuits got footing in England, would not have trembled at the heart to have called an anointed Catholic Priest (howsoever he had erst lived) a Knave, a Villain, a Spy, a Soothsayer, an Idolater, a Schismatic, a Libertine, an Apostata, an Atheist, with other the most odious terms that the devil or malice is able to invent? And yet than this, nothing is more common now every where amongst this lewd brood of the jesuitical faction: our common adversaries even of their own humanity, and for civilities sake showing a more reverend esteem and respect to be had of priests (at least for their learning, scholarisme, moral virtues, and other good abilities noted in most of those, had by that faction in disgrace) than any of these new pestiferous Puritanean jesuitical Sectaries will either acknowledge, or give any sign to be had of them. All the wont benedictions of priests now are rejected, their prayers, their sacrifices, their hallows, and their holies, contemned; and whatsoever else they do, pertaining to priestly function and authority (though in never so bad persons, yet to be reverenced, remaining in the Catholic Church) despised, as of no valliditie, worth or efficacy, more than if the said Priests were but lay persons. Lo what a ready way these mischievous men have made for Antichrist, under pretence of their Pharisaical zeal. Secondly, it is to be considered, That the end these ungodly politic set the ignorant multitude on gog for against Priesthood and the Secular Clergy, is only and wholly to withdraw all Catholic hearts from them, to themselves and their society; with more like devilish than human malice in them. And to make it seem more plausible and easilier seized on in weak idle brains: they possess their inconstant, flexible, wandering thoughts with follies, scruples, and fears; as, That the Secular Priests are become profane Publicans and gross sinners, unlearned, ignorant, infirm and weak men, of no reach, judgement, nor conscience in things; that they run on without making any account or reckoning of sin: that they have no authority, but all is lost they had, by their bad demcanure: that they remain Catholics only in show for the time, but are indeed very Atheists (for so the speech will never out of my mind which one used of Doctor Bagshaw in the Gatehouse, after his departure to Wisbich, tending wholly to this infamous kind of malignant backbiting) that they are dangerous men to be received into any man's house, etc. All these, with many the like most impious speeches and slanders are here touched, as raised by that faction against innocent men, blessed Martyrs, and reverend Priests, even from the beginning (of envy in a jesuits heart, to see any do well that followed not them) to this present hour. And now they heave at all in general, whereas before they maligned but some certain priests in special: whereof my poor self have tasted so great and heavy an over-weight, as even envy, malice, and themselves might seem with shame to keep silent hereafter, and horror of their account appaule them for the wrong they have done me. But yet I live, and so I must a while, maugre the devils malice and all the jesuits that hate me. Thirdly, it is furthermore to be well weighed, That their envious proceed herein, is most pernicious to all those Catholics, even whom they bear most in hand of all good meant on their party unto them. For who doth not see it, that the only cause of this their enfeoffed emulation at the Seculars good hap, riseth upon this, That God sweetly so disposing, as their innocency being known to her Majesty and Honourable Council, together with the jesuits traitorous hearts, they finding more favour than the jesuits do, and thereby less danger incurred by those that do receive them: the jesuits very politicly (but most impiously, maliciously, and unpriestly) imagining that in the end, this course taken, would occasionate all the Catholics in England to side with the Secular Priests, and utterly renounce the said jesuits: for their most safety, they have no other shift nor means in the world to avoid this eminent danger of perpetual exile out of England (as their like practices caused their odious banishment out of France) than to bear the people in hand, That her Majesty and the State meaneth no favour nor good to be extended to the innocent more than to the guilty; that the Secular Priests are but used as spies; that the State intendeth to get out of them what they can, and then to cut both them and those they converse with all off together. And for those and like reasons are the Secular Priests (say they) very dangerous persons, and ought not of any Catholic to be trusted. Which most vile, uncharitable, and wicked speech of theirs, is so much the more senseless, by how much as it implicats a contradiction; as in this ensuing discourse will appear at large. Mean while it is to be considered, Whether Daniel, or Esdras, or Zorobabell, or Tobias, or Esther in the time of the jews captivity, or the sweet Paranimph or joseph of Aramathia, or the mournful Magdalen, or the choice vessel of election in the sorrowful prime-birth of the Church her infancy: or yet Saint Sebastian, Saint Martin, S. Bernard, S. Augustine, S. Ambrose, S. Clare, or any other, in time of the like heavy calamities in the Catholic Church to these of ours, finding extraordinary favour with God, and grace with men more than others, yea perhaps far before them, or at least their equals in virtue and true Catholic religious zeal, could find, that were in the same predicament with them of disgrace; were they (I say) to be condemned by other Catholic Christians in these days, for that they found more friendship at the civil Magistrates hands, than others could? Was Daniel thought to be a rebel, or Esdras a spy, or zorobabel an Atheist? Or good Tobias an Idiot, or Queen Esther a makebate: for that the first was made General of those emperors forces, under whom (as captive) he lived: the second in special esteem, trust, and affiance with the same princes: the third sent home with great treasure, to build up the ruinated Temple and City: the fourth often spared, being taken in the exercise of his country's rites, ceremonies, religious acts, and other works of charity, which most of his fellows if they had been taken tripping in, had been sure to have died for: and the fift and last of these, obtaining mercy, grace, and pardon, not only for herself, but also for her whole country, people, and Nation, proscribed all to death irrevocable, by false suggestion of Haman the traitor? Again, Was blessed S. john ever the worse, for being not only admitted into the judgement hall by permission of the highest Priest: when all the rest of our saviours Apostles were forced to fly away (or else had been sure by all moral conjecture to have in the jewish fury, tasted of their Lord and master his cup of torments at least, if not of death:) but also being then free, and never once examined what he thought of his master jesus, he was able of his bare word to bring in his fellow S. Peter: who, if an unhappy girl had not been, might have stayed there still, without any sin or offence committed by that action. And yet in and by a jesuitical censure, they had been certainly condemned as spies, if they had escaped scotfree as S. john did, and S. Peter might, if no worse matter had happened unto him than that his personal presence there. Was good old joseph thought to be a Statist, or should our blessed Lady, or Nicodemus (as timorous as most of our English schismatics are) have had a scruple or doubt of being betrayed in going to take down and entomb the body of God, her only jesus, because the said Aramathian found more than ordinary favour at the high priests hands, in obtaining of him, to bury it where he thought good? Was the blessed Magdalen suspected to be a worse woman, for that, that she was permitted of the soldiers to pass and repass to and from the sepulchre untouched of them? Was Saint Paul condemned of any one, for having leave (being prisoner) to go where he lift, for any to come to him that would, and for that Festus, that Felix, that king Agrippa, and others, used him kindly, often sent for him, and would not permit his countrymen the jews to have their bloody will satiated when and as they desired. In few, were any of these that found more favour than their fellows in any time of persecoution, over heard of to be judged, censured, and condemned as spies, as dangerous persons, as reprobates, or fallen from their faith, before this day? No certainly. The jesuits amongst many innovations in the Church of God, have brought this in first of any other for one, scillicet, That all men fortunes, graces, favours, and actions whatsoever, should be evil thought of, which were either beneficial to any, without a commodity to their soeietie; or not squared, agreeing to their treacherous proceed, or but only done without their consent, ratibition, allowance, and liking. Well, as their pride, their envy, and their malice hath been unspeakable herein: so their tears, their blood, and all their lives (if they were given and bestowed in recompense and way of satisfaction) will never be able to rinse out that stain of their good names, which they have charactered in their torn consciencelesse heart, and credit, which they have lost thereby in the hearts of all other virtuous, wise, and sound Catholics, natural Englishmen and women of all degrees.  
As for their other general slanders: That the matter in contention was once already decided at Rome, and therefore would they make the world believe, That the Secular Priests were seditious, turbulent, and factious persons: and also, That they (the said Priests) are the only Statesmen and medlars, statizing more dangerously than they (the said jesuits) do Hispanize or Spanifie, etc. the one and the other, are both most false, mere calumniations, forgeries, and slanders, without any truth in the report or broachers of them abroad: and very sensibly, prudently, and learnedly are they here confuted, and their shameful dealing, treacheries, and impiety, covertly discovered thereby; together with the foisting in of that poor simple man, Master Blackwell, into an office and authority, he little knew (God wots) what it meant, or what treasonable practices were intended to be wrought by him. Finally, there do here occur to be well considered (as a point in my mind of as great a drift, moment, and consequence, as any we yet touched) the panigeries of the jesuits praises, the causes moving them to send forth their spirits to course both sea and land with bugle blasts of bloody Bellona's menaces, to all that dare presume to contradict a jesuit: and the extreme folly, madness, lunacy, or what to term it (I know not) in sundry of the Catholic Laity, yea, and of the more unlearned and less experienced sort of Priests, that will believe every word to be an Oracle that falleth from a jesuits lips, (in so much as once one said: That if such a Priest, a follower and factor of the jesuits faction, should bid him hang himself, he would do it) that cannot be otherwise persuaded, but that all the whole Church and Commonwealth of Christendom depends upon these impotent aspirers: that stand stiffly in it as a thing impossible, how ever the Secular Priests should prevail against such rare peerless Sanceperes: that think it no way agreeing to Catholic Christian doctrine, how ever such pure illuminats (who have, as they say of themselves, a more near familiarity with God, than any other priests) should ever fail in points of faith, good life, government, and order in all things: that their lives, words, and acts have been touched to the quick, and ever hitherto have been found faultless, spotless, and (as a man might say) immaculate without crime, for to the same end doth one Father Holtbies' speech in a railing letter tend, (as written to a Catholic lady, of no less nobleness for her virtue, than for her blood) against all the Apellants in general, but against a reverend Priest (master Much by name, whose books Holthie is unworthy to carry) in special: that they are the most learned, the most prudent, the most virtuous, the most religious, the most what not perfection on earth is in a jesuit; with the contraries in all others to be found. These strange paradoxes, as they presage a high mark, which the jesuits aim at, and therewithal a heavy ruin, so do they demonstrate a senseless, witless, and idle brain in those that do believe them, that cannot see into them, that will not be informed of their dangers by following their unnatural faction, and therewithal prognosticate a sorer, absurd, and a more mischievous heresy (if not Antichrist himself) to be brought in by them, than ever yet was heard of in the Christian world, to this hour. For how is it possible (unless the dolorous date of man's miseries be well nigh spent, and we the miserable wretches, reserved to live in these heavy days of the Churches last calamities) that ever any issuing out of Adam's loins, should be so ignorant of Nature's frailty in man, as these jesuit fautors seem to be by this senseless attributing unto them a state of innocency in a sort above that wherein our Plasmist created our protaplast in terrestrial Paradise?  
Man's wit, though it have suffered a great diminution by our protoparents fall, as all the rest of the parts and powers in human nature have, (yea, even synderisis is not exempted, but seemeth in many to be extinguished, rather than to have any being at all) yet these sparks of Nature's light are left in our souls, scil. First, to be of so high capacity, insatiable longing, and touring reach in search after divine knowledge, as nothing can content the understanding or intellectual part of man, save only summum bonum, ens entium, eternal felicity, beatitude, God himself and no more: which even Heathen Philosophers, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, and others, have acknowledged, sought for, and died insatiable, because they wanted faith to find it by. Secondly, the Devil by natural knowledge, perceiving well in the law of kind, that covert barren could not make a band, thought it in vain for him to tempt our protomother Eve, with eating of the forbidden tree, unless Father Adam could have been drawn (as he was) to have tasted of the same: and thereupon hoped the fiend (as it came to pass) to cut the entail of his heavenly inheritance, caused our parents to make a conveyance by fine and recovery to the devil, a forfeiture of his tenure, a breach of the conditions with his maker, a defeature of the heirs male of his body for ever, and put the heirs general to a desperate formedowne. Thirdly, notwithstanding all this, That the original writ of privilege was revoked, and human nature left to itself naked and unarmed amongst so many enemies and allurements to impiety, as that thereby it came to that impotent degree wherein now it is: yet a light spark of Synderesis, breaking out in the pure naturals of proper kind, moved even Philosophers, and such as were only conversant in natural affairs, (proving by lamentable experience the still continuance and uncured scars of that combat; which were, and so they are, Ignorance, Error, Concupiscence, Sin, Sorrow, Hunger, Calamity, Sickness, Death itself, and other afflictions found in themselves, and unacquainted with what they had lost in their first ancestor) to deplore the state of man so much, that they were not afraid to affirm, That Nature only in the preduction of man behaved herself as a stepmother, and not as a natural parent.  
If Heathen Naturians could dive so deep in finding even by Nature's instinct, the miseries, infortunities, frailties, imperfections, and impurities of man: if Plutarch in his Naturals, Plato in his Commonwealth, Cicero in his Orator, Aristotle in his Happy Man, Pliny in his Proem, Lactantius in his Epistles, Homer in his Odes, Empedocles, Democritus, Heraclitus, and other Sages in their writings do complain of Nature's unkindness in this point of imperfection left in man: if Saint Augustine against julian, Clemens Alexandrinus in his Stromateus, and diverse other Doctors, Legifers, and Hystoriors' do note this acknowledgement of human imbecility to be in these Heathen Wizards, ignorant of the chief point which we Christians do know and firmly believe to have occasionated these our downefals, imperfections, and ignorance in all things: then what conceit should Christians have of man's state, constancy, and sickerness, in any, or all his actions: compared by holy writ in one place to a reed shaken with every wind: in another, to a dangerous conflict in set battle: (for so said job, militia est hominis vita super terram) and in another, to a withered flower, to day fresh, to morrow in the furnace; and always like a weathercock, changeable, wandering, and uncertain.  
True it is, and cannot be denied, That the Heathens complaint was unjust, and proceeded of looseness, ignorance, and malice; especially the blockish and beastly Epicures, to whom, Nature's infirmity was such a stumbling block, as they thereupon denied the providence divine of God towards man, and all religion and reverence of man to him again. Yet the scope of my speech tending only to this, To bewray the Catholics extreme folly, in conceiting the jesuits to be such men of such rareness, such excellency, such worthiness and perfestion, as (excepting our Saviour Christ, as man, our blessed Lady, perhaps S. john Baptist, if the jesuits will give me leave) their like neither was, neither is, neither ever will be found in rerum natura, from Adam's fall to the world's end. There cannot be a sounder argument taken, to confirm, That the jesuits are but miserable wretches, and as impotent, weak, frail, imperfect, and sinful men, as we poor Publicans (so esteemed of by them) are. Then this deducted out of the principles of Natures own laws, customs, and traditions in our bowels: for Cat will to her kind: Bunten to his bay: Fry to his hole, and Man to his misery. And all this, by reason that the wound which was inflicted in the state of innocency, hath so festered in the whole posterity of Adam, as no hope of cure, during the time of man's mortality. And the transgression of the first lawbreaker, was so venomous a seed to bring forth wickedness in the race of man: that never any Legifer, spiritual or temporal, either by example in themselves (as a precedent to subjects,) or by any decree, ordinance, reward, or preferment for virtue, or penalty and punishment for vice, or any other engine or instrument, cold root it out. Read the book of Kings, of job, of Saint john, of Saint Paul to the Romans, of David in his fiftieth Psalm: of Philip Bergan in his History, of josephus in his Antiquities, of Polydore in his inventions, of Virgil in his Aeneides, of Pliny in his works, of Stow, Grafton, Fabian, Fox, and other Hystorians in our English Chronicles: and you shall find all this I speak to be true. No Bohemus amongst the Bohemians, no Tubal amongst the Spaniards, no Belus amongst the Assyrians, no Ceres or Rhadamanthus, no Draco, Solon, or other Legifer amongst the Athenians, no Mercurius amongst the Egyptians, no Minos, Lycurgus, Charandos, Phorondus, Romulus, Pythagoras, or Apollo, amongst the Cretensians, Lacedæmonians, Tyrians, Grecians, Romans, Italians, Archadians; no Druids amongst the Gauls, no Martia, Mulmutius, Gildas, Alfrede, Edward, or any other virtuous king, politic prince, prudent regent, or exquisite Legifer amongst the Britons or Englishmen: at a word, no Lawmaker of, to, or for any nation, could ever utterly take it away. Neither any Abraham, Lot, job, Moses, Samuel, Solomon, or Adam himself (that had tasted the difference of both estates, of innocency and sin, of original justice and original offences, of syndericall prudence and sottish ignorance; and had preached of all these to the primitive world) could by any exemplar, altogether root it up. Neither yet Christ jesus, the wisdom of God his father, and coequal God with him, the most perfect Lawmaker, Precedent, and exemplar, without exception, our Priest, Sacrifice, and Redeemer, that tendered, offered, and paid so rigorous a ransom for man's redemption, delivery, and demerits, that the least part, parcel, and portion of his tressacred, immaculate, and infinitely valuable oblation; was both able, effectual, and worthy not only to have cleansed all malice, rancour, and venom of sin, but the whole infection of all other infirmities and defects in any creature: would not for all that wholly take them from the world, but left them as a perpetual penitential memorial of a former evil desert, to tontinue in this state of pilgrimage: and as they were contracted by Adam in our first fall from innocency in Paradise, so perfectly to be renewed by Christ in our last resurrection to endless happiness. The law delivered to Angels, was transgressed in Heaven, before ever Adam came within a ken of Paradise, (if we follow the common opinion, That the Angels were created in that imperial palace) the law given to man in the state of innocency, was broken in Paradise terrestrial; the unwritten law under the patriarchs, the written law of Moses, the evangelical and most perfect law of Christ, all have been broken, and too often violated on earth. Of this, all ages, all times, all places, all persons of note and common sense have complained: God and Angels from Heaven complained: Prophets and prudent Princes, wise and politic Regent's, careful and virtuous Governors on earth complain: the patriarchs and ancient first Fathers, before the Law; Priests; Princes, and Prophets under the Law; Christ his Apostles, Disciples, and all holy men in the Law of grace have complained: the first man complained: the last man will complain: our Elders before (saith Seneca) hereof complained: we ourselves complain: and those that shall live after us, will complain of man's miseries, infirmities, frailties, imperfections, and weakness in all things. And shall any Catholic then be so blinded with an erroneous conceit of an extraordinary perfection of pieties, of religion, of devotion, of familiarity with God, of freedom from sin, of peculiar endowments with grace, for soul points, government and instruction in all things, to rest in a jesuit, above all other men on live? Fie, Catholics phy: let never so uncatholicke a thought take a momentary repose upon the buttress of your breasts; or once sink into the centre of your hearts, lest you sink down into hell without redemption in so blasphemous a thought as this were; and as too many of you have been infected, though not as yet I hope so perverted as that you are remediless impossible to be cured. If the jesuits will be Puritans, and esteem better of themselves than all their neighbours do beside; yet puritanize not you with them: lest they take encouragement by your ignorant applauses, to prosecute their impious courses, and so draw you on to attempt their own and your destruction; yea, and I pray God, not perdition also of body and soul, by running into some desperate heresy, with, or after them.  
What should I say more? I am still too tedious: for such are the Meandrian passages in discourse of the jesuitical platforms, drifts, and devices, as days, months, and years, would fail to set down all the errors, calumnies, and pragmatickes used by them and their correspondent consorts, on their own behalf, against the Secular priests, and all that aim not at the period of their fatal course: From which I beseech God to bless, preserve, and keep all innocent, sincere, harmless, well meaning hearts; and to recall, revoke, and deliver all those out of their snares, that are already infected with their flattery, falsehood, and folly. And so craving pardon, if I have exceeded too far the limits of an Epistle, or any way otherwise offended any person that is not jesuited in affection or faction, I now in a general congee to all gentle censurers of my well meant (how mean soever) endeavours, as hearty, as hastily being called away, do take my leave.  
Yours all (gentle Readers) in all good wishes of health, honour, and happiness unto you. W. W.  
Rectorem te posuerunt, noli extolli, esto in illis quasi unus ex ipsis, Eccle. 32.  
Non efficiamini inanis gloriae cupidi: invicem provocantes invicem invidentes. Gal. 5, 6.   

RIght Worshipful Sir, my heartiest salutations and Gods blessing to yourself and your Catholic family. After my departure from you, I could not but upon the remembrance of our long and intricate communication, think it very needful to set you down in writing the principal points which had passed between us in the said conference. For I finding you to be of a virtuous and of a just disposition, by reason whereof you were inclined to judge charitably of all sorts; and had not suffered yourself lightly and without proof of things to be carried away with such reports as might be disgraceful and injurious to good men, and your old friends: I thought it my part to let you have from mine own pen the same in substance, which you received from my mouth, that hereby in the relation of my answers, you might be kept from error, and my speeches be free from mistaking. These times wherein we are fallen, do afford us plenty of humourous men; and those no less void of sincerity, than of other Christian virtues. And very hardly are they to be found, which in matters of controversy tread uprightly, and be disposed to censure other men's words and actions, as they be in truth, or as justly they deserve: but all rather value men and matters according, as either blind affections lead them, or as by passion or private lucre they be drawn to judge or report. Which ill disposition, as it hath infected the most, so doth it not any where more apparently show itself, than in this controversy fallen out between the jesuits with the Archpriest and their adherents of the one party, and us secular priests on the other; wherein you see many run violently, and are carried headlong as a forcible stream against us, overbearing us with infamies and slanderous reports, upon uncharitable surmises, unlikely presumptions, and untrue suggestions, without respect of just and due examination of our cause; or, as may be feared in many, without regard of truth. Now men's judgements are ruled wholly by fantasies and conceits of persons, by present tastes of gain, or future hopes of preferment, or like temporal respects, to condemn us before they know our cause: indifferency is abandoned, equity excluded, passion, partiality, and a pleasing humour beareth all the sway: false reports are received as certain verities, and they are reputed for the best, which in renting asunder our good names, and in the office of defaming, do show themselves most eager and vehement. It is a woeful thing indeed (as you often said) to behold so great a breach of concord, and this scandalous division and strife to be among Ecclesiastical persons: but it is most horrible to see, what violent and unjust courses are taken by men professing singular piety, virtue, and perfection above others, for the oppression of many innocent priests, & utter subversion of their good names. No rumours that may disgrace us, are left uncast abroad; no slanderous reports which may tend to our discredit, are unuttered; no false surmise that may defile or distain our good names, is kept from the people's hearing. And finally, there is no man, no woman (as well of schismatics and common enemies, as of Catholics) which our adversaries do not entertain, as fit instruments to be employed in this uncharitable work of defaming us: yea, to be officious and hotspirited in this business, causeth such admirable alteration, that admit heretofore one had been reputed and shunned as a bad companion, or holden for a dangerous spy and traitor by our adversaries and their favourites; admit he were such a one, as had publicly renounced his Catholic religion, and in open court renied the Pope, and authority of the sea Apostolic; admit he were such a one, as by his whole life had given monstrance of Atheism, yet his exquisite diligence, his intemperate stickling, & his furious zeal in blazing every where our undeserved infamies, graceth him afresh, and maketh him worthy the name of a good fellow, and to be reckoned by our brethren persecutors, in the rank of a reasonable honest man, though perhaps this good conceit & fame must stand no longer, than this piece of their vilest service shall endure. Yourself good Sir, with all your Catholic neighbours can witness with us, how hitherto we have concealed from you and kept secret all the matter of these contentions, being most unwilling, and in troth very scrupulous, (though in our own just defence) to impart unto you any little portion of the cause or controversy, the notice whereof might certainly trouble your minds and breed you scandal, but could not benefit you in the smallest degree. Neither the matter only was thus carefully kept from you, but the parties also with whom we had this lamentable conflict; lest upon the long trial you have had of our painful travels, and sincere conversation among you (nothing agreeable to these slanders) you might take the smallest aversion, or any hard conceit against the persons of our adversaries, that bear the name of religious men and Catholic priests. But now that you are already made acquainted with this contention, and with the parties also; and this not by us, but by the jesuits, the Archpriest, and the double industry of their Agents; and that again, contrary to the very law of God and Nature, they heap upon us daily new infamies before our cause be heard, or by any form of just trial and proceeding, we be found guilty, and convicted in the least crime of hundreds, wherewith they unconscionably charge us. It is needful that we repel so notable injuries, that we stand in orderly defence of our good names and innocency, and that we let you know the truth of our cause; to the end, that this present disturbance of your peace, and the grievous scandal given throughout the realm by these contentions, may redound to them or us, as either they or we shall be found by just examination and indifferent judgement to have been the authors and causers thereof. And truly Sir, we would have been unwilling and very loath to have defended our own good names in any public manner, because we could not possibly do it, without touching the imperfections of our own dear brethren, which in these hard times of persecution, and in this lamentable affliction of our Church for the Catholic faith, we earnestly desire to spare and not to touch, though with any reasonable loss to us; if our brethren would have taken up themselves in any time, or have kept any measure in afflicting us. But you see our silence hath been so long, our patience so great, that thereby we have not only suffered much detriment in our credits and estimation throughout the realm, but moreover we have lost many friends; which through ignorance of our cause, the violency of religious men and seminary priests with their adherents, noted to run against us, are fallen from us. This patience of ours also hath made (which is the worst) our adversaries more audacious and violent in their unjust courses. In all which proceed of theirs, we could never hope for stay or stint, till they had utterly overwhelmed our good names, unless in time we should make some lawful resistance and encounter: which though perhaps we have undertaken it too late, yet we doubt not, but in time we shall recover some part of our losses, and at the least in the judgements of honest, virtuous, and indifferent persons, be freed from the infamies, after they shall have once examined and advisedly weighed the cause on both sides, without partial and blinding affections. In this only our adversaries have the advantage of us, that they can easily cover the wrongs they do us with a plausible cloak, and name of their religion and authority, and with invectives against us, as against enemies to their order, and disobedient to our own superiors: which two bad dispositions, if thorough their slanders they be once believed, or conceived to reign in us, they must procure of necessity unto us the aversions and hatred of all Catholic people and honest natures. We be Catholic priests, and albeit our carriage in God's work hath been heretofore never so good and irreprehensible, yet the very bare name or coat of religion, and the very remembrance of authority, swayeth much in men's opinions, to the discredit of any that contend with religious persons and superiors, although their cause be never so just, and the actions of the religious or superiors be most injurious. But yet who is he, that experienced but a little in the affairs of both former and present ages, can be ignorant, that the religious by too much seeking themselves, may serve from the perfection of charity, which they profess to run at: and that men placed in authority, may also transgress the laws of equity in the execution of their office, and then they are accustomed in the worst sort to oppress their subjects, when they most pretend justice, and in strongest manner sound forth the cries of their authority, for better colouring thereby their unjust violence. And surely the abuse of authority is not to be feared, nor suspected more at any time, than when in controversies, refusing or hindering all just, all indifferent, all ordinary trial by laws or compromise, they lean wholly to their authority, and strive alone by it to overbear and subdue their subjects. And in like manner also, the religious are then to be doubted most of sincere dealing, when only by a vainglorious conceit or vaunt of their religious estate and perfection, they justify themselves before the world, and would bear out all they do against their neighbours. Thus far in part we talked, besides the answers I made to every particular report you told me of; which I will here set down: and to avoid the tedious repetition of quoth you, quoth I, will deliver the same under the names we have by our several callings, both of us true Catholics, I a secular priest, and you a Wor. lay Gentleman. We began, and did proceed as followeth.  Gent. 
The jesuits with the Archpriest and all their followers, report, that you and your adherents were schismatics, and rebellious to the sea Apostolic, and that still you are disobedient persons to lawful authority and your superiors placed over you.  Pr. 
They report thus indeed, but unless they can prove us guilty of these crimes, their reports ought by all good men to be judged no other than mere calumnies and untrue slanders, and the reporters to deserve the like names.  Gent. 
I think so to, but it is to be supposed, that men of their state and profession would never touch any Catholic priest with these disgraceful terms, unless they could manifestly prove him to be guilty of the crimes, much less would they never bring these foulest infamies upon so many Priests, before they certainly know you guilty thereof.  Pr. 
If we look what men of their place and vocation ought to do, or again what good opinion is due unto them in regard of their state, I also am of your mind, we should suppose the best of them. For neither religious men, nor a priest chosen to be superior over his brethren, nor such as are directed and guided by them, should work the infamy of Catholic priests upon any uncertainty or feigned crime. But if on the other side you enter into the controversy between them and us, and examine truly, and sincerely weigh what we have done, and what they report, you shall find our actions much contrary to their slanders, and no cause to think all they say to be Gospel: but you will judge it necessary rather to fear the worst, than to suppose the best of them. Let us see then how these religious men, with the Archpriest and their favourites prove us to be schismatics, disobedient, and rebellious: object for them I pray you, what you have heard them allege against us.  Gen. 
With a good will; & this the rather, because, as I should greatly dislike you if you were guilty of these sins, so again, much should I joy in you, if you be free. They say you were schismatics, because you refused for a whole years space to accept of the authority instituted by the Pope, and to submit yourselves to master Blackwell ordained Archpriest over you. And as in that refusal you were schismatics, disobedient, and rebellious at the first, so are ye now guilty of great disobedience to your Archpriest for not observing his degrees and precepts.  Pr. 
Here be two things, our forbearing to accept of the new authority, or to submit ourselves to the Archpriest; & our disobeying the Archp. decrees and precepts. Touching the first, the jesuits and Archp. have so vehemently thirsted our disgrace and infamy, that for our delay, they censure us to be schismatics, and as such vile persons to be used, and shunned of all Catholics. And albeit the decision of this question belonged nothing at all to them, but was to be had from the see Apostolic and supreme pastor of God's church, before whose sentence pronounced, no man was to be condemned of so foul a fault, or punished for the same with public infamy, and the loss of his good name; yet could not the good men so long contain themselves, nor repress the violence of their spirit, as to spare our credits, and to forbear the subversion of our honest fame, till they had informed his Hol. of the case, and had received a firm sentence from him, what he judged of the case, and how he would have them to proceed against us. This temperance, this modesty, this charity they would not use, but taking hold of our delay and themselves judging it as a fit occasion, and a cause sufficient enough whereby they might work our disgrace and ignominy, they prevented the see-Apostolicke, and gave sentence of us, that we were schismatics. And that this rash and uncharitable judgement of theirs might run with more credit every where, they set on work one of their principal men, Father Thomas Lister, Doctor of Divinity, to write a Treatise against us, wherein he went about to prove us to be schismatics in the highest degree. Now this rude and infamous libel, as void of learning as it swerved from truth and modesty, being once divulged, it was approved by Fa. Garnet their Provincial and by the Archp. and forthwith confirmed by the practice of them and their adherents; we and our people were borne down with slanders, shunned as you know in all conversation, and the infamy was currant every where. Thus than they proved us to be schismatics by a ridiculous pamphlet, and by the practice of their own erroneous opinion.  Gent. 
Had they no better proofs than these? nor surer grounds for the matter, before they spread abroad so grievous an infamy against you, and put it in practice in the sight of the world, as we see they did?  Pr. 
No other truly.  Gen. 
It seemeth to have been very great presumption for a company of private religious men, and an Archpriest, whose authority also was as yet uncertain, to take upon them the office of the supreme and Apostolic Bishop, and upon their own heads to condemn you for schismatics. And again, it seemeth no less uncharitable audacity, that not expecting his Ho. sentence, themselves would put in execution their own opinion, to your extreme infamy, and the scandal of our whole Nation.  Pr. 
Let it seem to have been, or be it what it shall, this they did, and thus they dealt with us.  Gent. 
But I hear, notwithstanding all their heat then, and the heaps of injuries they cast upon you by this slander of schism, that both the jesuits and Archp. in England, and also Fa. Parson in Rome, are now half ashamed of the matter, and say it was but one private man's opinion, and that hereby they never defamed you to be schismatics.  Pr. 
I hear also, that now, when they perceive the matter is like to come to trial before the highest Tribunal on earth, and to be made known unto the Christian world how they have injuried us, they would step back again, and with any smooth and cunning shift make men believe, they had not so foully erred, and broken the bonds of all Christian charity. But the case is clear enough, their actions were manifest to all our nation, and will convince them of too intolerable impudency, if they deny that which all men know them to have done. We have also their own hands to testify against them: but in such men, if the testimony of their own consciences will not suffice to make them confess a truth, though it be to their own temporal confusion, especially when their fact is known to a whole nation, as this is, they may keep themselves content with the bare name of Religion; and for humility, for mortification, for charity, for sincerity, and true simplicity, let them not boast themselves above the meanest Christians, nor glory in these virtues at all. And if the Archp. say or write (as I hear he doth) that he never called us schismatics; I cannot but lament his case, considering we have his own letters and decrees to the contrary, whereby he doth charge us with that crime, and forbiddeth us in any sort to defend our good names; not we, but they shall reprove him. And for both the jesuits and him, if they be now come to this, That it was but a private man's opinion, never uttered to the discredit of any; they give the world, which knoweth the contrary, over great and manifest presumptions to fear their bad dealing in all the rest. And moreover, I demand of them, Who it was that wrote their infamous libel of schism? Was it not the jesuit Fa. Lister? Who set him on work? was not this his superior jesuit Fa. Garnet, as Fa. Lister himself confessed? Who approved it, and sent it abroad to some of our priests? Who but Fa. Garnet and the Archpriest? who said it should be defended, if we would bring it to trial? Who but Fa. Garnet? Whence came the copies thereof to be scattered among the Assistants, and in all corners of the realm, but from the jesuits and Archpriests? Who finally were the authors and ringleaders to the rest in the scandalous practice against us, and our children? Who but Fa. Garnet and the Archpriest? Moreover, if they say it was but one private man's opinion, this maketh their fault more inexcusable: For we that held the contrary, were many, and not altogether ignorant. The case then in practice should have been ruled for us, and we ought not to have been defamed upon one private man's opinion.  Gent. 
I think it must needs be granted, that the superior jesuit and the Archp. were acquainted with the libel. For the Archp. approved it: and for the jesuits, considering that their chiefest vaunt and glory of their religion doth consist in a singular perfection of obedience, wherein they would he thought to excel all other religious orders, it cannot be imagined, that any of them, but especially not Fa. Lister, a Doctor of Divinity, famous among them for learning, a man for tenderness of conscience, much inclined to scrupulosity, and for humility and other religious virtues, accounted of extraordinary perfection amongst his fellows it cannot be imagined (I say) that this jesuit of all other should so forget himself, and stain the splendour of his obedience by such wilful rashness and indiscretion, that he would ever enterprise a matter of so great moment and sequel as this, before he had acquainted his superior Father Garnet therewith, and had consulted also with him in every particular, or finally, would divulge the same without his command and licence.  Pr. 
If we suppose that this one good Father had in this gross manner forgotten every point of his religious obedience; can yet any man think, but that his superior Fa. Garnet (if Fa. Lister had not taken it in hand, and finished it with his licence and liking, or if it had not been sent abroad and practised according to Fa. Garnets' own will and pleasure) would forthwith have espied the error and disobedience of his subject, and have recalled the tract, and hindered the practice thereof? But if Father Lister forgot to acquaint his superior with it at the first, can we think he did so after, when he wrote the second time a reply against master Champneies' answer to his libel, and divulged it also? Or can we persuade ourselves, that in so great a matter and cause of tumult, the superior jesuit Father Garnet slept all the while, and let his subjects say, writ, and do what they lifted: If this be so, where then was his vigilancy and solicitude? Where was their obedience, their relation, their dependence, which a Gentleman their dear friend and themselves so much brag upon? But the libel pleased them all, and much glorious vaunting they made of it, to be learned and substantial; yea, happy was he that could show himself most zealous in practising it against us, and in persuading other Catholics to do the same.  Gent. 
I know not what learning or substance that infortunate Treatise contained, but I heard a good priest, who is said also to be a singular divine, to wit, master Wright, I heard him (I say) affirm, that it was an unlearned pamphlet, written without any show at all of judgement, or discretion, or scholarship, and empty of learning and good substance, making much ado about the nature of Schism and penalties incurred thereby, which were not in controversy, and childishly failing in the proof of that point, which he had undertaken to prove, and concerned the chief point in the question, namely, that your delay in particular was schism. And the same man commended master Champneies' brief answer to it, to be more judicial, and scholarlike, than master Licters was.  Pr. 
Well, they have gone far in this bad course, whether they will relent, and humbly confess their error, or stand obstinately to defend it, I cannot guess; and if they were not the men they be, I would of twain expect the former. But do they thus or so, I hope their uncharitable devise in this case will turn, when truth shall appear to their own confusion, and our innocency be made clear to all men of upright judgement.  Gent. 
I pray God that truth may prevail, innocent men may be defended, and they that have thus injuried their brethren, may repent, and make satisfaction. But yet I pray you deliver me in few words for my better satisfaction, some reason, why through your delay you incurred not the crime of schism.  Pr. 
I will do it with a good will, and briefly. It is a doctrine generally received by all Divines and Canonists without contradiction, that the crime of Schism requireth necessarily an intended separation and rebellion from the head of the church, as he is head and superior thereof, or from the members, as they be the members under that head. 
2. 2. q. 39  Schisma est (saith S. Thomas) quo quis Summo Pontifici subesse renuit, cum quadam rebellione, intellige in quantum est summus Pontifex, & membris eius communicare recusat, intellige in quantum ei subiecta sunt. Schism is that (saith he) whereby one refuseth to be subject to the supreme Bishop, with a certain rebellion, (understand this) as he is the supreme Bishop, and refuseth to communicate with the members subject to him, (understand) for that they are subject to him. And again, Schismatici sunt, quisubesse renuunt summo Pontifici, & membris Ecclesiae ei subiectis communicare recusant. They are schismatics which refuse to be under the Pope, and to communicate with the members of the church subject to him. With this limitation still, as Archidiaconus saith, Per recusationem eius iudicialis sententiae, non recognoscendo ipsum ut Caput Ecclesiae, By refusing his judicial sentence, not recognizing him for head of the church. And Silvester also upon S. Thomas, 
Ver. Schisma.  Notanter dixit, in quantum est summus Pontisex, id est, non recognoscendo eum ut Caput Ecclesiae. S. Thomas said purposely (in that he is Pope (that is) not acknowledging him for head of the church, Secus autem, in quantum singularis persona. For it is not so, if one do it in respect the Pope is a single person; as if a man should be offended with him for some particular fact. 
Ver. Schisma.  And Caietane the Divine, Peccatum Schismatis tendit contra unitatem, sive Ecclesiae, sive Capitis formaliter. The crime of Schism tendeth against the unity either of the church or head formally (that is) as it is the church under that head, or the head of that church. And therefore, if one doubt reasonably whether this particular person be the Pope or no; and thereupon do not acknowledge himfully for the Pope, he incurreth not thereby the crime of Schism, no though he err in judgement, because there wanteth the formality of Schism, which is this, to refuse him, as he is undoubtedly the Pope. 
C. 27.  And finally, the famous Lawyer Navarre, Schisma peccatum est, quo quis se separate ab unitate Ecclesiae nolendo subesse ei, vel membris eius, quatenus sunt eius. Schism is a sin, whereby one separateth himself from the unity of the Church, by refusing to be under it, or the members thereof, in regard they are the members thereof. So that by the judgement of all the learned, this is an undoubted verity, That a man cannot be a schismatic, unless he have a voluntary or intended rebellion against the Pope and the Church; with this formality, as he is the Pope or head; and the church a body, or members under him, (that is in one word) unless he refuse to acknowledge him for his head, and to communicate with the members, because they be under him: perceive you this?  Gent. 
Yea very well.  Priest. 
Hereupon it is manifest, that we could not possibly be schismatics by our delay.  Gent. 
I see no such consequence.  Priest. 
Do you not? you know that our delay to accept of the authority, and to submit ourselves to the Archpr. was not because we denied the Pope to be Pope, and our head; nor that we refused to obey him as our head; nor for that we would not admit the authority, and Man said to be instituted by him, formally, because they were said to be instituted by him. Upon these respects, and formalities we delayed not, and yet without these we could not possibly be Schismatics. But the whole controversy stood in this, That the authority was inconvenient for our Church; and that it was doubtful, Whether in truth the authority was instituted by the Pope, or not. This was uncertain (I say) the jesuits and Archpriest on the one side had no Bull, no Breve, no Apostolic letters, no authentical Instrument (as is usual in all matters, both of great & lesser moment, proceeding from that See, and which in grants of extraordinary jurisdiction and Prelacy is absolutely necessary, before any be bound in conscience to obey them) they had no such thing to show for proof of that they claimed, and would violently enforce upon us, as his Ho. fact: and we on the other side, partly for want of this Apostolic Writ and Testimony; partly upon other great reasons, had good cause to doubt, that his Hol. was not acquainted with it: yea the particulars of the authority implied in them so many, and so great inconveniences, that we thought it needful to delay the acceptance thereof, till his Ho. should have better information of our Church's estate, and thereupon either recall the authority, if it were his deed, or in time reform and change it into some other more commodious to our afflicted Church. So that their propounding or promulgating this authority being insufficient, & no way binding us in conscience, we bore off to receive it, because it was uncertain, and very likely not to have been instituted by the Pope. The inconveniences also which it brought with it were no little cause of our delay; and we bore not off because we refused to be subject to the Pope, as Pope, or head of Christ's Church, or to this, or any superiority he should ordain over us, as our supreme Pastor, which yet we must have done before we had incurred the crime of Schism. Perceive you now how the case standeth, and how far off we were from being Schismatics?  Gent. 
Very well.  Pr. 
Nay further we were so free from that crime, and all the least disobedience to the See Apostolic in that delay of ours, (and of this neither the jesuits nor Archpr. could be ignorant, for they were privy to our whole course, and actions in that matter, and they had also our own word and hand-writing for submission in all things which were certainly notified unto us to be his Ho. his deed) that for men of their profession, learning, modesty, and experience, to condemn us, yea in the secrecic of their own conscience to be guilty of schism, or the least disobedience, cannot be defended by any reason from the grievous sin of temerity, and rash judgement. But for them by their tongues, pens, and practise to display and cast abroad in the world, the turpitude of this infamy for crimes feigned against us by themselves, and never once committed in thought by us; and this also before the Church had examined, and censured our case, this, this fact of the jesuits & Archpriest, as it cannot possibly be excused, nor escape the note of uncharitable audacity, & extreme cruelty in them, so of necessity must it bring wonder to all posterity, and be horrible in the sight of all honest men. When they urged the admittance of the authority, with so many threats and in so violent a manner, as they did all that year before the coming of the Pope's Breve, we always told them this, and we delivered it them in writing. First, that we admitted of whatsoever the Pope had done already, or would do in time to come in our Church. Again, that we would presently and without delay receive the new authority, and submit ourselves unto the Archpriest, if they could show unto us the Pope's letters, and certainly make it known by any Apostolical writ or authentical instrument, that the authority was instituted by him. Thirdly, we would in fact also do the same without the show of any Apostolical letter, if the Archp. and two of the jesuits would swear unto us, and avow it upon their priesthood, that this authority was ordained over us by the Pope, or that his Ho. was acquainted with every particular thereof. Again, if they refused all these, we offered further, presently to obey the authority, upon condition they would agree with us to send one or two of either side to Rome, which might inform his Ho. of the state of all, and bring us certain word what his will was we should do in every thing. These proceed and offers of ours will for ever yield a firm and irrefragable testimony of our sincerity, priestlike comportment, and innocency in this cause; & moreover, protect and keep safe our good names from the slanders of our adversaries, in all degrees of schism or disobedience, wherewith their ill affected minds by many slighty shifts and deceitful pretences so earnestly labour to stain them, and to bereave us of our credit, a treasure without which we desire not to live on earth.  Gent. 
Made you then these offers?  Priest. 
Yea truly, neither can they deny it.  Gent. 
What answer did they return to this?  Priest. 
Marry they rejected them with much disdain, and answered that we should absolutely subscribe to the authority without any conditions at all or further delay, or else we should have the censures of the Church laid upon us for our refusal; and the word was confirmed by the effect: for presently after the Archp. without scruple or blushing to execute any act of jurisdiction, whiles his authority, as yet not confirmed by his Ho. stood doubtful; solemnly in writing with compliments of a new seal, and all his titles, suspended M. Coll. M. Heb. and M. Mu.  Gent. 
It is possible these men should thus foully forget their profession and the rules of moral honesty? for it seemeth, if this relation be true, that their principal drift and endeavour, was to harm and discredit you, without respect of your good, or ill deserving.  Priest. 
For my relation, our adversaries themselves cannot deny it to be very true. For the articles were written and delivered them, and tossed in the hands of all Catholics about London; they and their adherents condemning them, we and ours defending them to be just and indifferent. Touching their disposition in this doing, I shall need to say no more but this; It had more be seemed religious men, not unwilling perhaps to be esteemed singular among others for good zeal, charity, mortification, and wisdom; and it had more graced an Archp. newly chosen to be a Superior, a Father, and a Pattern of virtues to us all (suppose his authority had been confirmed firmed by the Pope) to have had patience with us a while, and to have expected the censure and judgement of his Ho. to whom only it belongeth to decide the controversy, before they had disgraced and defamed us for schismatics and rebels against the See-Apostolick throughout the realm, and many parts of Christendom also. And this (I say) they should have done for preventing scandal, in case we had undoubtedly been guilty of those crimes, and that our fault could not have been covered by any handsome excuse, or diminished by some favourable interpretation. But for them to feign and forge these crimes against us; for them to be the first authors and divulgers of these horrible infamies, which we never deserved in the least sort, that a sincere mind can devise; for them to be the chiefest authors in the practice of their own erroneous paradox; and this also before the Church had heard our cause, and condemned us, (as I said even now) I cannot perceive how this could become them, or how it may be justified by any means; it arguing a spirit as far differing from charity and discretion, as vices are opposite unto virtues. They are not ignorant neither (which greatly augmenteth their fault, and cleareth us from all disobedience) that it is an usual thing observed in all the particular churches and countries of Christendom, and by the light of natural reason thought necessary for the good government of God's people, that when any grace, benefit, office, or dignity is granted by the people to any man; or when any authority is instituted by him, which either was obtained by surreption and wrong information, or containeth in it things prejudicial and inconvenient to their church and people; the Pastors, Clergy, and people do defer the admittance thereof, until they have better informed his Ho. of all matters, and none think themselves bound in such a case to receive it, though it should come, as instituted and confirmed by his Hol. authentical Breves or Bulls, before he had understood their difficulties, and the reasons of their fact.  Gent. 
Did they not know this to be usual in Catholic Churches?  Priest. 
Yea, and more than this; for they knew that many princes in Christendom have made laws, and decreed, that nothing shall be admitted or put in execution within their States, that cometh from the Pope (we speak not now of matters of faith, or manners generally propounded, and commanded by his Ho. to be observed in the Church) before it be seen and approved by men appointed for that purpose, as well to have been rightly obtained, and to be authentical, as to be without injury or prejudice to any. 
Variar. resol. c.  This is observed (to let go the rest) in France and Spain, as Covarrwias' noteth in his book.  Gent. 
Me thinks it is very necessary it should so be; for otherwise one badly disposed man might by collusion and wrong information obtain that of the See Apostolic, which would disturb and annoy a whole Nation.  Priest. 
In such cases their laws are not thought unlawful, nor they which make or execute them, any way rebellious or disobedient. The jesuits and Archpriest in a far less case have condemned us of schism and disobedience, when they could show us for this authority neither Breve nor Bull, nor any authentical writ from the See Apostolic.  Gent. 
And for my part also, it driveth strange conceits into my head, and among the rest this is one, that I think the world will shortly have an end. But now I clearly perceive these reports, that you were schismatics and disobedient to the See Apostolic by your delay to accept the authority, to have been merely untrue slanders and calumnies; and these the more intolerable & injurious, in that they were invented, cast abroad, maintained, and put in execution by the jesuits and Archpriest, whose fame and bare name of religion and authority, would induce almost all men to believe them, & to condemn you.  Priest. 
So it is indeed, but yet if an Angel should proclaim a true man to be a thief, and upon the Angel's word all men should believe him so to be; the just man were no thief for all the multitude of believers, & the Angel's proclamation were no less than an untrue slander and infamy. The like is in our case: yet with this notable disparity, that the inventors and setters abroad and defenders of this infamy against us, be but jesuits and an Archpriest, which we know to be no Angels. But to conclude this part; our appealing at that time, and our sending to Rome to know his Ho. his good pleasure, least in any thing we might offend through ignorance in these uncertainties, manifestly showeth us to have been free from all spot of schism, and disobedience to the See Apostolic. For schismatics, not acknowledging the Pope to be their head, make no recourse nor refuge to him, as to their superior: and rebellious and disobedient persons to the Pope, seek not with so great pains and charges (as we did) to know his will, that they may conform themselves thereunto. Wherhfore this part of their report deserveth no better name nor place, than the title & predicament of an untrue slander. Now, if yet you rest unsatisfied with this that I have said, touching schism and disobedience, I refer you to our reasons, and to the letter which master Champney writ to his friend concerning this matter, and to M. Doctor Bishops answer to the letter of Fa. Parson: and for a firmer rock whereon you or any may safely stay their judgement, and resolve what you will adhere unto, till the contrary be defined by god's Church, to the grave censure of the Divines of Paris: For the sentence of that famous University doth acquit us of schism and sin in our action of delay; repelleth the untrue flanders cast against us by our adversaries, and should cause all men of wisdom and government both to temper their tongues in this case, and to suspend their judgements. For who is he that is wise and hath the fear of God before him, that will adventure, either to condemn us in his own heart, or to report us in the world to be guilty of schism or sin for our delay, now after so many learned and famous Divines of that University, upon mature deliberation and discussion of our case, have pronounced us to be free from these objected slanders?  Gent. 
I have not seen as yet the reasons you speak of, but I expect daily to have them. And for the sentence of the Sorbonistes in Paris, I have seen it, and me thinks it justifieth your actions very greatly. But against it I have heard objected by your adversaries: First, that the information was not truly set down: And again, that their sentence is not to be respected in this case, considering they be known adversaries to the jesuits, and would be glad by any occasion, to displeasure and discredit them.  Pr. 
Where they except against the censure of the Sorbonists, that the case was wrongfully proposed, it is a silly shift, so fond & childish also, that even the jesuits own friends are much ashamed thereof; and all indifferent men hold it too too gross and ridiculous. For the case was propounded in such manifest and express terms, and so truly and directly set down, that even our adversaries themselves can hardly find any way to make it seem insufficient; but shift have they none at all to make it seem untruly delivered. And in this it is more favourably set down for them than for us, in that sundry of the chiefest reasons for which we bore off to accept of that authority, are passed over and omitted, without any mention at all.  Gen. 
In troth, me thinks the case is very plainly and fully, and with great indifferency put down; and this shift of reproving the information always seemed to me and to many others, a mere cavil or frivolous wrangling; which is an usual thing to men that want substantial matter to allege for excuse of their fault; and when through lack of humility they had rather stand to defend their own error, than acknowledge it. And in this case, verily nothing more moved myself and divers others to conceive very well of you and your dealing in this controversy, and to fear some great defect of sincerity in your adversaries, than the prohibition which the jesuits and Archp. made against this censure of the Sorbonists; that none should defend it, no, albeit it proceeded upon true information of the cause. For what other thing could men conceive hereby, but that the Archp. and jesuits, by whose advise and direction he made and published that decree, intended to suppress the truth by their power and authority; to bear you down by strong hand, and to overrule our Church by their own wills only, without regard of equity, reason, or conscience.  Pr. 
What should they do, but frame their building answerable to their foundation which they had laid at the first, and make the progress of their work conformable with their beginning? They had set upon us with great zeal, and in the fervency of their spirit defamed us of schism; they had made a most scandalous separation from us, themselves, and their adherents, shunning us in all conversation and communion, as well in human things, as divine; this once done, what remained, but to prosecute the matter with the same fervour and vehemency of spirit, as they had attempted it at the first? They were in credit, authority was on their side, the world swayed with them, were it right or wrong they did, it should be borne out by the cloak of religion, authority, disobedience, and friends. And what? durst a few poor disgraced priests make resistance? durst they examine the actions of religious persons, men of so rare perfection, or mutter against the command and decrees of so extraordinary a superior? It was not likely; but in case they should give the attempt, no doubt, but they should be discredited, and most severely punished to their eternal shame and confusion. No marvel therefore, if with this advantage, and upon this hope they were so earnest and so bold, as to prohibit in that sort the defence of that sentence, albeit the case were rightly propounded unto these learned men.  Gent. 
Supposing the information to have been true, the prohibition must of necessity be very gross and far out of square. For besides that in the judgement of wise men, it were to patronize erroneous doctrine, and bolster up injurious dealing in them that untruly defamed you of schism, it toucheth also the Divines of that famous University with no small discredit, as having right information of the case, to be men either so very ignorant and doltish, that they could not judge and decide it rightly; or else so void of grace and honesty, that they would wittingly impugn a known truth.  Pr. 
So it is, and certainly the second part of our adversaries answer implieth a conceit of no less vile disposition to be in those divines, than this latter you spoke of. For when they reject their censure, and judge it worthy of no credit, because (as they say) the Sorbonists are enemies to the jesuits, it implieth, that they judge them to be men of that bad disposition, that they will pronounce an erroneous sentence contrary to their own knowledge and conscience.  Gent. 
By my faith, I think it implieth little less than so, if a man may speak in plain English.  Pr. 
judge you then, how our adversaries through their zeal in self-love are carried headlong beyond all the limits of modesty, and how they blush not to defend their erroneous paradoxes with injuring any; nor fear to cast disgrace upon whosoever, that for defence of truth shall stand in their way.  Gent. 
Who would have imagined, that so dangerous an humour had reigned in men that pretend singular perfection in their state, & would be thought mortified of their inordinate affections above all other either secular or religious?  Pr. 
Not I truly, unless too much experience had proved it so to be.  Gent. 
But the jesuits seem not to do any thing, nor at all to intermeddle with the affairs of you seminary priests, but they refer all to the Archpriest: and therefore not they, but he and his Assistants only deserve the blame, if any thing be done amiss.  Pr. 
Would to God it were so, that they were not intermeddlers, for then things would not have come to this woeful plight in which they be now. But assure yourself, it was not for nothing that the jesuits procured this authority, and made choice of this man to be Archpriest, and others to be assistants, all without the consent and knowledge of our Clergy; and moreover provided by a special caveat in the instructions, that in all matters of importance the Archp. should take th'advise and direction of the superior jesuit in England. Again, that the whole authority with the Archpriest and Assistants, should not be absolute of themselves, or depend of the liking or disliking of our Church next unto his Ho. but always be depending of the will of Fa. Parson, as it should please him to move the Cardinal Protector to alter or dispose of all: for thus the Archpriest, the Assistants, and all our Church are surely kerbed. And lastly, that the jesuits by such violent means enforced upon our Clergy this authority, before it was confirmed by his Ho. or they had obtained any Apostolical letters, authentical writ, or commission to ascertain us of the validity thereof: assure yourself (I say) that all this was not done in vain by these men of so rare providence, but all their diligence and endeavours tended principally to this, at this mark they aimed, That not only they might be exempted from all subordination to any superior in our Church, but also have the greatest stroke in ruling our Clergy, and sitting closely at the helm, steer the whole ship, turn, and dispose of all as they listed, and yet be not easily perceived to have any motion or meddling at all. And in truth so it is; the jesuits doing whatsoever pleaseth themselves, and cunningly using the Archp. his name, voice, hand, and ministery to any intendment or plot of theirs; they will not be seen authors or agents in any thing, but persuade us all to be obedient to our superior the Archp. The Archp. indeed and the Assistants are culpable, in that either they will not see the politic drifts of the jesuits, which tend to the inestimable disadvantage and detriment of our Church; (for there was never the like misery and division among our clergy & people at home, and abroad in the seminaries, as hath been since the death of the blessed Cardinal Alane, when the jesuits began politicly to stir, contend, and rule) or perceiving them, they either will not, or dare not to oppose themselves, stay the ruin, or seek for redress: but contrariwise, either for pleasing the jesuits, and gratifying their advancers; or through fear to forego their rooms; or upon some particular respect and motive, let all go to wrack, and be as forward to execute blindly and without discussion and judgement, any thing, be it never so unjust and harmful against their brethren as the jesuits are ready to devise, and diligent to set them on against any whomsoever they list to work displeasure.  Gent. 
Me thinks it is very inconvenient, that there being these great contentions between the jesuits and priests, they should have any stroke at all either in the government of our Church of England, or of our seminaries beyond the seas. For thus they may easily displeasure both the students abroad, and the priests at home, against which they have taken conceits, or with whom they have had quarrel at any time.  Pr. 
It is so indeed, and this is the very bane of all our Church's peace. For many of our towardliest students being made made contents in the colleges, and having had contentions with the jesuits there; as they on the one side return home possessed with humours of discontentment & aversions; so find they here the like disposition in our jesuits to that their brethren had beyond; and their entertainment in England by these Fathers is usually worse and more intolerable than that which they suffered by those in Rome or Spain. But this is beside our matter. Let us return to the second part of the report (to wit) That we disobey the Archpriest. Wherein I pray you is this disobedience of ours, deserving in the opinion of our adversaries, and their too credulous adherents, all these infamous outcries? name for them some particular, if you can.  Gent. 
Nay in troth, I can name no particular more, only than that you disobey his precepts & decrees; and being suspended and deprived of your faculties by him, you celebrate notwithstanding and use your faculties, as though he had no authority over you in these cases.  Pr. 
We will take all these for particulars, and answer them. But before we proceed any further, I pray you let me ask you one question or twain.  Gent. 
Agreed, I will answer them if I can.  Priest. 
Is there no difference of superiors in the world?  Gent. 
Yes doubtless there is, and that very great.  Pr. 
Have they all equal authority and jurisdiction over their subjects?  Gen. 
No, God only is absolute Lord, and independing, having supreme power and sovereignty in every respect over all his creatures; all superiors under him have their authority and power limited, every one in his degree and order.  Pr. 
Then every superior under God, is not to be obeyed in all respects, or in every thing he may command, but in such things only, as fall under his authority, and within the compass of his jurisdiction.  Gent. 
It must needs be so. For if a superiors will only were the measure of his power and authority in such manner, that he must be obeyed in whatsoever he will command; there could be no difference among superiors, but all should be alike; and in this, all equal with God himself, who may command what he will, and must be obeyed in all he commandeth.  Pr. 
It is evident then that our Archpriest is not so absolute a superior over our clergy, that he may command what he will; or that we are bound to obey him in whatsoever he commandeth.  Gent. 
No man is bound to obey him in any thing he commandeth beyond the authority granted him: for he hath no more power nor jurisdiction over any, than is expressly given him by the words of his commission.  Pr. 
All is well; then are we not disobedient to him, if we refuse to obey him in his decrees and precepts, which he hath no authority to make, by any thing appearing in his commission.  Gent. 
True, but it is to be supposed, that he will not in his decrees exceed the bounds of his commission and authority.  Pr. 
We know he should not exceed them, but we may easily suppose an untruth, if we suppose him or a greater superior than he, to contain himself within his limits, when the case standeth as this doth in a matter of controversy, wherein himself is a principal party: and when in all his proceed hitherto he hath showed a vehement desire to overbear all only by strong hand and authority. It is no rare thing for superiors, which list not to forego their rooms, but delight to see themselves aloft, and perhaps would ever be mounting higher, to challenge more than their due; and where their own interest may enter, to encroach also what they may. The subjects sufferance, and yielding to the force and injury, is often taken by the superior for title good enough, for whatsoever he listeth by iniquity to obtrude and claim.  Gent. 
Daily experience proveth this to be overtrue in many superiors; give them an inch, and usually they will take an ell, unless they be all the better disposed, and seek in their prelacy more the glory of God and the good of their subjects, than their own interest.  Priest. 
Now therefore let all supposals pass, and let us come to the facts themselves, and by them judge what he and we have done.  
First it doth not appear by the words of his commission, That the Archp. hath any authority at all to make new laws and decrees at his own pleasure, which may bind us to obey them; or for breaking whereof he may justly inflict upon us any penalty at all. By his commission he is placed over the seminary priests in England and Scotland in the degree and authority of an Archpriest; but absolutely to make laws and decrees with the severest penalties for such as violate them, was never heard of in God's church to belong to the office of an Archpriest: only by virtue of his commission he may Dirigere, admonere, reprehendere, vel etiam castigare, cum opus crit. Direct, admonish, reprehend, or chastise also when need shall be: but there is no word of making new laws and decrees, and therefore it is to be supposed, that in all these points of his authority, he is exactly to observe the laws of God's church, to which we yielded ourselves, when we undertook our Ecclesiastical estate, and not to his will: and that he ought to proceed according to the ordinary course of Ecclesiastical Canon, already set down to his hand, and not he to lay upon us at his pleasure new burdens and bonds more rigorous and intolerable than are used in any part of the Christian world beside. If he make laws and decrees, not having authority so to do, they are of no force to bind us to obey, and consequently it is no disobedience to resist them.  Gent. 
This must needs be thus, if he have no authority to make new laws, and decrees.  Pr. 
Surely as far as we can perceive by the words of his Commission, he hath none at all.  Gent. 
Then are you freed from the slanderous report of disobedience, for not observing his decrees, and precepts.  Pr. 
I hope we be. But yet further, let us suppose he had full authority to make decrees; doth this prove, that we are disobedient, if we refuse to obey, and resist them?  Gent. 
Me think it doth.  Priest. 
Doth it so? what? will you say that unjust decrees are to be obeyed? or perhaps think you that this Archp. is so infallibly assisted by God's spirit, that he can make no decrees but just and good?  Gent. 
No, I will neither affirm nor think either of these twain. For it is manifest, that injust & hurtful laws, as they are not to be accounted laws, so are they not to be obeyed. And again, the Archp. is a man subject to errors, as others be; and then especially an error is to be feared, when being a party in controversies, he goeth about to decree any thing prejudicial to his adversaries: for in these cases above all the rest, self-love draweth him from indifferency, and inclineth him to respect chiefly his own particular. And on the other side, a mind aversed from his adversaries, spurneth him forward to devise against them partial and grievous decrees.  Pr. 
The Archpr. cannot with any show or colour of reason charge us with disobedience to him, except only in that we obey not his decrees: we acknowledge him for our Archpriest, and to have as ample jurisdiction over us, as by his commission he can claim. In all things we are ready to obey him, wherein he hath authority to command. This one thing (through his own, and the jesuits renewing it after it was once forgiven and ended) resteth in controversy between him, them, and us, (to wit) Whether by reason of our delay to accept the authority before it was confirmed by the Pope's Breve, we incurred the crimes of enormous disobedience, rebellion, and schism against the See Apostolic or no. He and they aver we did; we deny it: he and they have slandered, and do continually defame us, as guilty of those sins feigned by themselves. We have stood, and stand in defence of our assured innocency; and think it most violent iniquity to bereave us of our good names upon a private opinion of their own, before our cause either at home or abroad be orderly heard and tried, and we also condemned by God's Church. He and they forbidden us under most grievous penalties, to defend ourselves from their calumnies, or our good names from their undeserved slanders: in which prohibition, because it is very injust, we know ourselves no way bound in conscience to obey them. He and they cease not to wrong us, they keep no measure nor mean in doing us injuries, but daily oppress us with the heaviest, and plainly intolerable afflictions: we being denied all hearing & trial of our cause at home, fly by appeal to his Holiness. He and they exclaiming against this our fact, heap upon us all disgrace and punishments: we arm ourselves with patience against the worst. Now you see all our disobedience to the Archpriest is in these two points. First, in that we defend our good names against his and the jesuits manifest slanders. Again, in that we appeal to his Ho. for ending the controversy, wherein the Archp. is a principal party, and our violent adversary. Both these I confess are directly against the Archp. his will and decrees: (for his decrees are (as I said) that we should not defend the schism and rebellion, wherewith he and the jesuits have defamed us, and that we shall not appeal without his licence.) But to defend ones own good name injustly taken away, is lawful by the law of Nature itself: and to appeal to the See Apostolic from the injust oppressions of any superior in the world, yea without his licence and against his will, hath ever been and will be always lawful in the Church of God; and consequently, it cannot be truly judged in us any disobedience to the Archp. when we resist him and his decrees in those cases. For as he can make no law to subvert the law of Nature touching the defence of a man's own good name; so can he make no decree to prohibit or to hinder appeals from himself to the Pope: and whatsoever he decreeth in these cases, are of their own nature frustrate, and not to be obeyed by any.  Gent. 
It is evident, that this report of your disobedience and rebellion against the Archpr. is a mere calumny, if you disobey him in no other decrees but these, wherein if you should obey him, you should show yourselves very foolish, yea, very culpable, and disobedient to God the author of Nature's law, and to the constitutions of holy Church.  Pr. 
It is so indeed; but yet the very word, and sin of disobedience imputed to us by men of their calling, entereth far, and even at the first hearing taketh deep root in the hearts of the most virtuously disposed, moving them to great aversions, and zealous invectives against us, albeit they know little or nothing how the case standeth. And our adversaries play upon this advantage to stir up all sorts of people against us: For who is he that will not utterly mislike a disobedient priest?  Gent. 
Disobedience truly is a foul crime, discommendable, and very odious in a Catholic priest, if he be infected therewith and this almost in the eyes of all persons, as well bad as good. But yet if a Catholic priest shall be falsely charged or slandered with this sin, the calumny cannot disgrace him, when the truth shall come to light.  Pr. 
I grant all this, yet in the mean season, whiles truth is by violence suppressed, the best that is may sustain great loss in his good name. For there be few which either know or consider how far a superior is to be obeyed; and the most take every opposition and repugnance to a known Superiors will or precept, to be the sin of disobedience, without further discussion of things; and this the rather, in cases where the Superior and his Adherents are holden to be good men, and the mark they shoot at, is pretended to be some special good thing, as the glory of God, peace, and the like.  Gent. 
For pretences of good ends, no superior will fail to have great store, no not in the worst things he commandeth: and therefore me thinketh it necessary, that before any man be defamed (especially by priests and religious men) of disobedience and rebellion to his superior, because he resisteth his commandment; first the thing commanded be looked into, and tried whether it be good or evil; if good, then again it be considered, whether the superior have authority or eommission to command that thing or no. For if a superior command an ill thing, as to kill; or defame an innocent; to steal; or any thing against the law of God, of Nature, or of holy Church, he is not to be obeyed, neither is his repugnance to be condemned for disobedience. And again, if he command a good thing, the which yet exceedeth the limits of his authority, a man is no way bound to obey; and his refusal cannot justly be called disobedience. For otherwise I know not how our refusal to obey our temporal prince's commandment for going to Church, and for practise of our religion, or any other magistrates injust commandment, may be excused or defended from the crime of disobedience and rebellion in the jesuits and Archpriest themselves.  Pr. 
If men had considered and observed this, we had not been slandered, nor generally condemned for disobedient persons, as we are, for refusing to obey the Archpriest in his decrees; some of which were against the law of God and Nature, & others against the laws and liberties of holy Church, as I said before. But the authors of these infamies, and the leaders of this ungracious dance to the heady and ignorant Laity, Maius peccatum habent, have the greater sin.  Gent. 
I will not judge these men to have any spice of that disease, which our Saviour noted to be in some men, That could spy a mote in their neighbours eye, but not discern a beam in their own: or that in censuring other men's actions, could excolare culicem, make bones of a Gnat; & Camclum deglutire, and in their own case easily swallow up a Camel. I will not condemn them for such (I say.) But I remember that once a jesuit told me, how the Pope (upon some great cause & consideration, doubtless) sent a precept or a decree to the religious houses in Rome, thereby prohibiting under great penalties, That any should use the knowledge gotten of a man's estate in the Sacrament of confession, to any politic end, or matter in any external affair whatsoever. Thus much I remember he told me, for the rest contained in the Apostolical writ, let it pass. When it was brought to the jesuits, they singularly among all other orders would not presently accept thereof, but required, that their general might have access and licence to deal with his Ho. before they received it: the answer being brought to the Pope, forthwith he commanded his decree or precept to be received by them without further delay, under pain of excommunication, ipso facto to be incurred. In this case lo, when the matter concerned their own particular, they thought it no disobedience to refuse for the time to accept and to submit themselves to this commandment or decree of his Ho. in a matter of so great importance. No, it was no fault neither (in their conceits) for them only to show singularity in thadmittance of this decree of their superior, and to make delays in receiving that which all other orders willingly admitted at the first. But in this case controversied between them and you, the good men I perceive are more zealous and forward, and would be loath to let escape any show of disobedience in you, against which they should not exclaim and write to your greatest discredit that may be.  Pr. 
I also have heard of some thing like to this, which you relate from the mouth of a jesuit, be it true or false; but this which I will tell you, is known to all Christendom to be true. About eight years ago it happened, that the jesuits had some discontentments with their General, and were desirous to have some things reform in their order, for which causes they of Spain laboured to have general congregation. The General with the Italian jesuits resisted their endeavours, and did what they might to hinder it, for such a capitulo or congregation had never been used among them, but at the election of a new General. This strife was great, and continued long. And at the last the Spaniards, assisted by the old king of Spain, prevailed: and thereupon a general congregation was holden at Rome by commandment of the Pope. Now this contention was between the jesuits and their Superior, and they enforced him against his will (no doubt but upon sufficient cause) to have this unusual convention. They had vowed obedience in the strictest manner; their Superiors will should have been an Oracle, yet notwithstanding they proceeded against him, and procured the thing they thought convenient for their society, whether he would or no: by which practice of the best of their order it is manifest, that even where obedience is vowed, the subjects may resist their Superior his will and commandment, upon a just and reasonable cause; much more when there is no such vow to bind: but if some of our English jesuits, or their whole society, for our disgrace will condemn us of disobedience for resisting the Archpriest in any sort, or for refusing to obey his decrees, of what quality soever they shall be, we must return upon themselves the same reproach (but in a higher degree) for contending with their Fa. General in any sort, or for any cause. Or if again for credit of their society they list to excuse their brethren, and free them from disobedience in that contention, because in many cases the subjects may resist their Superiors will or commandment: if they do this for love to their own credit, we may entreat them for Christian charities sake to excuse our fact, or to clear us of this horrible crime and slander of disobedience for our refusing to obey the Archp. in his decrees opposite to the laws of nature and holy church.  Gent. 
It were good reason they should so do in this matter of his unjust decrees. But how can you excuse yourselves from disobedience, when you use your faculties after he hath deprived you of them; and ye celebrate, notwithstanding he hath suspended you? Do you not acknowledge him to have jurisdiction over you in these cases?  Priest. 
Yes we do, but yet in such wise prescribed unto him and limited, as if he attempt to do any thing beyond his commission, it is of no effect nor validity.  Gent. 
This must needs be true, for it were an unreasonable and disorderly authority, if it left all at his liberty, especially to inflict punishments at his pleasure without more.  Priest. 
His authority is to punish priests for crimes committed, either by suspending the use of their faculties, or by depriving them altogether: as for suspending from the altar, we think he wanteth authority. But where there is no crime committed, where no crime is proved against a priest, nor he manifestly convicted thereof, the Archp. hath no authority in any sort to punish him. Now touching our case, he hath suspended some, others he hath quite bereaved of their faculties: but for what crimes hath he done it, and in what manner? He hath not convented nor convicted any of our priests of those faults which he and the jesuits have feigned against them: without proof of the crime, without hearing the accused, without citing them to answer; upon mere fictions and uncharitable surmises of his own and theirs, he hath proceeded against some, as men guilty of schism, rebellion, enormous disobedience to the See Apostolic and his own authority; against others, for defending their good name in this slander; against others, for ask satisfaction; others he afflicteth for setting their hand to the appeal without his licence; others, for persuading both parts to send two priests to Rome quietly with the state of the controversy, that so it might be ended by his Holiness; others, for that they will not recall their appeal, and yield to his opinion, no less injurious to them, than erroneous in divinity and learning: yea, if any defend the censure of the University of Paris, he also tasteth of his whip.  Gent. 
These proceed are the most disorderly and injust that ever I have heard.  Priest. 
They are no better than I tell you.  Gent. 
Surely it were impiety to think, that his Ho. would give him authority to afflict and punish innocent priests in this manner.  Priest. 
So it were. And therefore proceeding against us without authority, all his suspentions and deprivations are of no valliditie, but to be contemned as frivolous, proceeding from an uncharitable disposition in him, and the jesuits his counsellors. Thus you see, that in truth we are not justly to be touched with any note of schism, rebellion, or disobedience against either the See Apostolic or the Archpriest: and that these reports are manifest calumnies and untrue slanders, purposely devised by our emulous adversaries to delude men's eyes, and to stir up the world against us, to our discredit. Now if you be satisfied in these points of schism, rebellion, and disobedience, let us go to another report.  Gent. 
For these things me think you have said sufficiently, and I know not what to reply more than I have done.  Pr. 
Well, go to then, what is the next slander?  

The second Slander.  Gent. 
They give it out all over that you be dangerous men, because you are extraordinarily favoured by the privy Counsel and State, by whom they say you are maintained, and divers of you have free accsse and familiarity with them and the Bishop of London, M. Waid, and others: which are great presumptions that you be scarce honest men, or to be trusted by Catholics. For (say they) these with whom you deal, and of whom you find these singular favours, are professed adversaries to Gods holy Church and to all Catholics, and therefore it cannot but yield probable and very pregnant suspicion of bad dealing, and of treason to the common cause, that you only should have friendly entertainment, conference, and access at your pleasures.  Pr. 
They be our adversaries, no marvel then if they speak the worst of us they can, and upon their evil affection take hold of every occasion to surmise and report the evil we never did nor thought. You see how upon their own private opinion only, against all right and conscionable proceeding, where many as learned and judicial as they, held the contrary, they condemned and defamed us of schism, rebellion, and disobedience (all Divines and Canonists reprove their fact, and all posterity will admire their impudency, their want of charity, or skill, or both) and in the rest also their zeal, spurneth them forward to devise and vomit out any thing that may defile our credits. Indeed their slanders carry a great show of probability, because they are in an odious matter, and seem to proceed from an honest mind, zealous and sincere: but let the particulars be once discussed, and the vizard of deceit taken away, and then forthwith the surmise and report will appear in it own likeness to be a mere calumny and untrue slander. First therefore, where they say that we be men of danger; it is the slander of an enemy, deserving no more credit, than their reason is of force to prove. What is their reason then? Because we are singularly favoured by the privy Counsel and state? Admit it be so, is this sufficient to prove us dangerous? If it be not, then is it a pernicious calumny, to account us dangerous for a cause which is not sufficient to convince us to be dangerous. If it be, then must it follow, that not only some of themselves, but many also of their best lay friends in England have been and are in the same predicament with us. Had not Fa. Hawood jesuit such extraordinary favour of the lord of Leicester, that (besides the secret plottings & conferences which were between them before the jesuits apprehension) when the Father was in durance in the tower, he only had there more liberty, and found more friendly usage than all the priests in the other prisons throughout England: yea when many Catholic priests were closely shut up, rigorously used, and cruelly executed; Fa. Hawood lay at ease and safety in the tower, and at the time of his banishment all men reported him to have found singular favours above the rest touching his provision. This Fa. also had many conferences with Sir Christopher Hatton, and received favours of him before he was apprehended? What should we say hereupon, that Fa. Hawood was a dangerous jesuit? Or rather, that these extraordinary favours are not sufficient to prove a jesuit or a priest to be dangerous. Father Bosgrave another jesuit, found not he also extraordinary favours in prison and banishment, whiles many a good seminary priest was straightly handled & put to death? I hope we may truly say, That neither master Bluet nor master Clarke, nor any other of us whom the jesuits and Archp. would discredit by access and familiarity with the magistrates, have as yet condescended so far unto them, as that Fa. Hawood did; and yet was he not defamed thereby to be a dangerous man. We let pass the two ancient and famous jesuits, Fa. Langdale, and another, either of which had remained in the society above twenty years before their Apostasy, (which argueth that all jesuits be not Saints before they break out of their order) we let these pass (I say) and come to Fa. john Gerard, who is said to have found more favourable entreaty by our common adversary, during the time of his endurance, than any of our priests imprisoned in those time, or than those which now they so much exclaim against; he is said to have been absent from his prison, and this by licence 2, 3, 4. or more nights and days together.  Gent. 
Thus much I also have heard of him, & that he had more favour and liberty than all his fellow prisoners beside. But this was procured, as I heard, by great bribes, for he had always greater store of money than all the rest.  Pr. 
I condemn not the man, nor think him dangerous for so doing. He found favour among our enemies to have liberty: if he be to be excused, or not to be judged dangerous, because he procured it by his money; then, to find extraordinary favour among the heretics, is no true cause why a jesuit or a Priest should be thought dangerous. And why should not our priests in this case be as free from slander and infamy (if they can procure to themselves by other honest means without money the same or more liberty) as a jesuit that bought it with his money? I will not now rehearse what some magistrates in high place have said of secret meetings & conferences between some of the privy counsel & some jesuits; nor what some of the jesuits entirest fauourits have whispered to their friends, concerning strange plots and devices for no trifles (I wisse) between the jesuits & some of high room and dignity in the State. Be it true as they reported, or be it false, (as spoken but for a brag to win the jesuits more friends and credit, as men able to dispose of all) it much forceth not, all finally cometh to this issue, That we be not dangerous men, because we receive extraordinary favour of the state. For if they also had conference, and withal hold this principle, themselves also should be dangerous men with us, which they will not grant: if they had not, yet in their conceits, and by these reports that they had, when the case is their own, they think it no sufficient cause to account them dangerous for finding favours and conferring with the privy Counsel: and so they acquit us also of the same slander. For there can be showed no disparity nor reason, why this may not be as free for a Catholic priest, as for a jesuit.  Gent. 
You seem to conclude this rightly, unless they will say, that their dealing with the privy Counsel, or the favours they find of the State, cannot bring them into suspicion or obloquy to be dangerous men, as it must do priests; because they are religious mortified men, fast and sure from corrupting or depraving by the magistrates, as priests be not, which are passionate men, loser of life, and more inconstant, and therefore this danger is more to be feared in them, and less in the jesuits.  Pr. 
It may well be that they carry no worse conceit of themselves, nor better of us than this: and I dare undertake for them, that howsoever their charity extendeth to us, their own good word shall never be wanting to themselves. But these chimerical conceits and fictions do not alter the nature of the thing we speak of. And for seminary priests in England, it is manifest, that they have laboured in Christ's vineyard with no less fruit, & consummated their courses in prisons and death, with no less courage and zeal, than any jesuit hath done hitherto; yea, even such priests as these perfect jesuits, reputed to be most imperfect (and with whom they have had great contentions in the colleges beyond) have matched them in the performance of all Christian duties when the trial was made, by enduring prisons, miseries, and death. But as the housewives proverb goeth, All these father's geese must be swans: They be jesuits, ergo peerless.  Gent. 
I perceive you, but what were you about to say of their friends?  Pr. 
No more but this, that by slandering us to be dangerous men, by reason of some favours we are said to find at the privy counsels hands, they bring the same slander upon their best friends.  Gent. 
How may this follow?  Priest. 
Marry thus; who knoweth not that divers of the principal Catholics in England for temporal estate are their best friends? And who is ignorant again, that they have found and receive still very extraordinary and singular favours from sundry of the privy Counsel, such as no other Catholics in England besides themselves can have? If these great ones be not dangerous persons, by reason of their extraordinary favours, why should they think us and our friends to be, if at any time we reap the benefit.  Gent. 
I know no reason why they should, unless perhaps the jesuits affection and conceit of the perfection of all such as they deal with, make this difference, where in truth there is none. But yet they say that some of you go voluntarily to the Bishop of London, and have daily conferences with him, and other our adversaries; which thing is very suspicious, and hath not been used by any jesuite, or any of their side.  Priest. 
Indeed the jesuits carry a higher conceit of themselves than they do of our priests, & the same must others also carry of them, how small ground or cause soever there be thereof, or else farewell friendship, and you are their adversary. Correspondent also hereunto, is the opinion and estimation which the jesuits and their people have of such every where, as depend upon them, and have yielded themselves into their guidance, in respect of all such Catholics as deal only with the seminary priests. For only this dependence on them is cause enough why they should be thought mortified, zealous, perfect, and saints: and the rest for want of this, passionate, dull, imperfect, and but ordinary Catholics, though in truth they exceed and excel theirs in the performance of any Christian duty, excepting this only, that they are guided by the priests, and have not resigned themselves and all they have to the wills and directions of the jesuits. And this foolish difference and frivolous distinction to be between the jesuits and their dependants, and the seminary priests with their Catholic people, is not obscurely insinuated, if it be not the principal scope aimed at in the Treatise of Three fairwels, written by a chief favourite of jesuits, but not without their privity, their perusing, and their consent in publishing it abroad; for otherwise the Gentleman followed little of that resignation and perfection he talked so much on in that book, where he will have a man in all things depend of the jesuits, and to be guided by them. As than no doubt he was himself in most absolute sort, both in making and divulging that gallant Treatise. But now that some of ours usually resort to the Bishop of London, and have secret conference with him, I know not how far the religious charity and perfection of a jesuit, occupied in the custody of evangelical counsels, will adventure to suspect, judge, or report thereof; sure I am they should not have proceeded thus far as they have done already, if they had observed the rules and limits but of ordinary precepts and Christian charity. We will not speak now of such priests as have been most officious for the jesuits and Archpriest, in furthering their hard attempts against us, and yet are known to come to the Bishop of London's house, no less than these of ours which they so rattle with infamies. Let us deal only with these two of ours, M. Bluet and M. Clarke, upon which the slanders chiefly run. Have they not both been known for virtuous and good Catholic priests, the one having endured a longer imprisonment for defence of Christ's faith, than any jesuit hath spent years in England, yea, before any of that order entered the realm? Hath he not waxed old under that heavy yoke, preferring the ignominy and affliction of Christ's cross, above the glory and pleasures of the world? Hath he not lived with great credit and honour among both Catholics and Heretics, which he purchased by his Catholic zeal in defence of God's cause, and by his sincere, discreet, and virtuous comportment in his conversation? Hath he now perhaps revolted from his faith, or professed himself an enemy, or that in any the least degree, he will be rebellious or disobedient to the See Apostolic? Doth he not still lie in prison for his Catholic religion? Or can they say perhaps that he wanteth ability, and the talents of wit or learning, by reason whereof he may be thought incapable of promotion, or so insufficient to undertake rooms of dignity and livings among heretics, that being fallen from his faith, or become a traitor to God's cause, or what else soever the slanderer will have him. For those defects of his they judge him unfit for preferments, and worthy no better than this little liberty he hath in prison? Meaner men than M. Bluet or M. Clarke if they fall to the protestants, are friendly entreated, are set at liberty, and preferred to benefices in their ministery, as is manifest in Dawson, Maior, Bell, Tedder, and the rest; what ill hap then have these two to lie still in prison, and miss all advancement? For M. Clarke also, it is well known how he hath long and zealously traveled for the saving of souls, with no less pains and fruit than the jesuits about him. He hath made a more glorious profession of his faith, and sustained harder trial by affliction than many of them. Is he devoid also of all sufficiency and good talents, that if he be gone from God, and all goodness, he cannot yet (if he would) step out of prison to some fatter benefice among the ministers? They that value their own actions, how slender and trifling soever they be, above all that their fellows do, are very easily carried away, what by peevish emulation, what by selfe-liking, into rash judgements and disgraceful reports, to misconstrue the words and deeds of them they fancy not; to interpret all sinisterly; and to take and censure all they see or hear in the worst part they can devise: affirming against both the manifest rule of charity, and the express commandment of God, forbidding all rash and temerarious judgements in these words: 
Matth. 7.  Nolite judicare & non indicabimini, nolite condemnare & non condemnabimini, affirming uncertain things, I say, for certain; or taking upon them to judge another's servant, when that office belongeth not to them. Domino enim suo stat, aut cadit; 
Rom. 14.  or (if it concern them) judging secret things for manifest evils: or finally (if they be manifest) persecuting them, as to be done badly, without knowledge of mind, intention, and disposition of him that did them. A good conceit or opinion, by the law of Nature is due to every man; and this aught all Christians to carry in the secrecy of their own hearts, each one towards other, until by some manifest and certain fault one have deserved the contrary. By the same law also, a man's credit, honour, and good name should rest entire and safe without loss or detriment, until by some inexcusable bad fact or fault, or by some assuredly known crime, they be impeached: no less than this, was due unto our Catholic priests in prison, to M. Bluet, to M. Clarke, to M. Doctor Bag. whom more than any, these religious fathers with the Archpriest and their complices, have disgraced with slanders, and to all the rest of us in durance, or abroad. It was due unto them (I say) from all sorts of Catholic people, from all priests, from the Archpriest, from the jesuits: nevertheless they have bereaved us of this treasure and due. By what crimes manifest and certain have we lost our right herein? How can they defend themselves from cruel & injust rapine? We were schismatics say they: we deny it; and say it is no more but their own damnable calumny & slanderous fiction. We were rebellious and disobedient to the See Apostolic: we deny it; and say this to be an undeserved infamy, we never having the least intention or thought (without which these horrible crimes cannot be committed) to separate ourselves from the See Apostolic, or to disobey in any thing Clement the eight: or any superior certainly known to be constituted by him over us, so far forth as his authority might appear to be extended. And for this point, our innocency is so clear, that the jesuits and Archp. with all their adherents, shall never be able either by wit, or learning, or honest dealing, to prove us guilty of these crimes, or to defend themselves from the foul note of uncharitable contumelious slander. Were we known to be men of that bad life, evil demeanour, and corrupt conscience, (for it could not be imputed to our ignorance) that without good reason, and all probability of sufficient cause, we were likely to forbear the acceptance of the new authority till the coming of the Breve, & wittingly to cast ourselves into a damnable state? If our former labours and conversations had deserved this conceit, our adversaries might have had some pretence to justify their doings, and perhaps saved themselves from the ignominy of detractors and calumniators. But if not, as I hope the world will testify for us, then surely they should have taken another course, contrary to this they took, as well for saving themselves from grievous sins, as for preserving us from these horrible infamies, into which they have cast both themselves and us, by their heady and rash judgements. For truly, if any one reason of ours, or all together, be found a sufficient cause of our delay, a heap of sins & infamies will redound upon their own heads, and we shall be freed. And now touching M. Bluet, M. Clarke, and others of ours, that are said to have access and conference daily with the Bishop of London, or some other of the Counsel. Have their former conversation in the world, and their long sufferings, cast that evil sent? or do they yield such certain proofs of a graceless disposition, that this fact of theirs can deserve no defence nor excuse? or is it so manifestly ill in itself, that it will admit no cause as reasonable to salve it? or is there no mean nor way, whereby their fact (indifferent doubtless in it own nature) may be, if not altogether justified and defended, yet at the least excused, or left unjudged, to be already of the vilest quality, and they accordingly demeaned? Answer for the jesuits. Is it a manifest and an undoubted sin, that a Catholic priest and prisoner haunt an adversaries house, and have conference with him?  Gent. 
Now truly, I am persuaded it is not, for I have read of many good Saints that have haunted the company of evil persons with great zeal and merit, and our Saviour Christ himself and his Apostles used the company of scribes, pharisees, publicans, and the worst sinners.  Priest. 
If this be indifferent, and may be done with merit, what can make it a sinful action in M. Bluet and M. Clarke?  Gent. 
Their intention and business only, or perhaps the scandal they give thereby.  Priest. 
For the scandal, in respect of all the learned Catholics of England, the Priests and religious men especially it is Scandalum acceptum, and not datum. For they knowing it to be an indifferent action of it own kind, and to be justifiable and made good by many circumstances, if they take scandal, before they see some ill effect to be intended, or necessarily to issue thereupon; it must be only Scandalum acceptum. And for the simpler sort of Catholics, they also with their leaders are bound in conscience to suspect or judge no ill, of the indifferent actions of their Catholic fathers and prisoners, until some sinful intention or effect appear. And in this case much more ought the constancy of these Catholic priests imprisoned, as long as they persever constant, to stay at the least all good Christians from temerarious or rash judgements (which is ever a grievous sin) and in this case is greatly increased by the state and dignity of these men, and by their former good deserts and sufferings; than they should be moved by their access and conference only, to suspect or judge the worst, or to utter any thing derogatory to their good names. The jesuits and Priests which are willing to set this scandal on foot, and labour what lieth in them, to make our priests actions seem heinous and horrible, and never cease to persuade the people to judge the worst, and to exclaim against them; these jesuits and Priests have the more sin, and as they be the authors and continuers of the scandal, so have they to answer for the sins of their disciples.  Gent. 
By my faith it is dangerous to be too forward in imitating the jesuits zeal in this point, and great safety it is to suspend one's judgement, and to temper one's tongue till more be known.  Pr. 
I think that the securest way: for as S. james (fourth) saith: Qui detrahit fratri, aut qui judicat fratrem suum, detrahit legi, & judicat legem. Si autem iudicas legem, non es factor legis sed judex. He that detracteth his brother, or judgeth his brother, detracteth the law, and judgeth the law; but if thou judge the law, thou art not the observer of the law, but the judge. A Pharisaical vice it is, rashly to judge and condemn other men; and I wish the jesuits, the Archpriest with their complices in slandering us, were free from all note and contagion of this turpitude. But if we thoroughly examine the causes which we have given them on our part, and with indifferency weigh the nature of these actions & their circumstances in every respect, whereupon the jesuits and their adherents have judged and defamed us of most horrible crimes, we shall easily perceive them to have transgressed the bounds of all Christian charity. A religious man is bound to tend and aim at evangelical perfection. This consisteth not in the name of an order, nor in the three essential vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, to a Superior: For hereby only the principal lets and impediments which may hinder their attaining to perfection, are removed. But perfection indeed, 
Tho. 2.2.  which by their profession they are bound to endeavour unto, doth consist in a full mortification of themselves in all respects, and in a perfect charity towards God and man. Now I demand of the jesuits, what degree of charity they have showed and exercised in this controversy? was ever any bad companions so dissolute and impudent, and desperate railers so void of conscience and charity, which upon so slender causes and grounds, (first of our delay to receive the authority, and now of having conference with the Bishop of London or others of the Counsel) could ever have run a more intemperate, heady, and uncharitable course of rash suspicion and judgement, to the overthrow of our good names, than the jesuits have done? Can they more have exceeded the limits of grace, of temperance, of modesty, of humanity, than the religious Fathers have? Who in matters belonging only to the supreme Pastor to decide, have taken upon them to determine the cause: who with their own particular fantasy have prevented the sentence and judgement of the See Apostolic? and who finally upon a private opinion of their own (thought yet erroneous by men, not their inferiors for learning, judgement, sincerity, and other virtues) have earnestly laboured for ever to disgrace and utterly defame so many Catholic priests? Can any lost or forlorn caitiff have made more vile and detestable inferences, or gathered more loathsome poison, or raised a more pestiferous stinch, by stirring in these matters, and freely spending their mouths in condemning and defaming priests for their conferences with the Counsel and Bishop, than these religious men have done and their disciples by their example and onsetting? What then availeth a name and boast of religious perfection, when in observing this ordinary precept of not judging or not condemning rashly, they are so far short of matching the most of our imperfect priests, that they have scarcely gotten one step before the badst Christians? Can not their charity find any one cause or reason for excuse of M. Bluet and M. Clerks indifferent action, till some worse effect appeared? Was it needful for their charity, to prevent their ill doing which perhaps will never fall out with most reproachful slanders. Infamies in the conceits of humble and charitable men, come timely enough upon Catholic priests after they have certainly done the fault, and in no wise aught to be cast upon them before the crime be committed. It is no heinous trespass in these extremities and wants of necessary relief in prison, which by the jesuits and the Archpr. their means, is uncharitably brought upon them, to solicit the Counsel or Bishop for more enlargement, or for continuance of the liberty they have already, or to procure the like to their afflicted brethren. If in this only they have found a little favour, why then might not a jesuits charity have pretended or imagined this to be the cause of their going and conference? Again, it is no crime to sue for their own and their brethren's banishment: if then in these great and most grievous miseries inflicted upon them by the jesuits and Archpriest, as slanders, penury, loss of faculties, suspensions, and the like undeserved cruelties, above the common persecution by their adversaries in faith, they seek for their own deliverance by banishment: might not the religious jesuits and Archp. by this reason justify, or at least excuse their going to the Bishop? YVhat if their intentions be to work some good of these magistrates, either for their conversion, or to make them more favourable to afflicted Catholics, and better conceited of Catholic courses, yea, or to procure some toleration or other good to our church? All these be lawful ends, and might be more easily and with less danger of sin supposed by charitable men to be their business, till some worse matter appeared, than the badst disposition and affair that emulous heads can devise. These and many more causes of their conferences and access may be without much labour thought upon; all, or any one of which might be sufficient enough to induce a timorous conscience to deem the best, or at least, to stay it from the downfall of rash suspicion, judgement, and defamation. And to tell what I think, I should not marvel any whit, if her Majesty and her Counsel should do M. Bluet, M. Doctor Bag. M. Clarke, and many of our seminary priests, more singular favours and good turns than these they have done, or they do to the jesuits; considering they know we hope in the end, our priests simply to deal in matters of religion only, and no whit to intermeddle in state affairs, nor to concur with Fa. Parsons and his associates in their plotting about titles, successors, invasions, and disposing of the crown and realm either in her Majesty's time, or after her decease. An odious and unfit occupation for religious men, which by profession should have left the world.  Gent. 
Left the world? Nay Gods pity, I fear me rather that Saint Barnard toucheth them not a little, when speaking of religious men, he saith: Itane mundum sibi, & semundo crucifixerunt, ut qui antea vix in suo vico aut oppido cogniti suerant, modo circumeuntes provincias & curias frequentantes regum noticias, principumque familiaritates assecuti sunt. Have they so crucified the world to themselves, & themselves to the world, that they which before were known scarcely in their own street or town, now wandering about provinces, haunting courts, they have gotten the acquaintance of kings, and the familiarity of princes. And again, Video post spretam seculi pompam nonnullos in schola humilitatis superbiam magis addiscere, ac sub alis mitis, humilisque magistri gravius insolescere, & impatientes amplius fieri in claustro, quam fuissent in seculo: quodque magis perversum est, plerumque in domo Dei non patiuntur habere contemptui, qui in sua non nisi contemptibiles esse potuerunt. I see some after they have despised the pomp of the world, to learn rather pride in the school of humility, and under the wings of a mild and humble master to wax more proud, and to become more impatient in the cloister, than they had been in the world: and which is most perverse of all, for the most part they disdain to be had in contempt in God's house, which in their own estates could not be but contemptible.  
If this concern them, let them look to it, and if it do, he telleth them from whence their evil springeth, saying: Nec aliunde haec omnia mala contingunt, nisi quod illam, qua seculum deseruerunt, descrentes humilitatem, dum per hoc cognitur inepta denuo sectari studia secularium, canes efficiuntur revertentes ad vomitum. Neither proceed these evils from any other, but that forsaking that humility wherewith they left the world, whiles hereby they are enforced to follow again the unfit studies of secular persons, they become dogs, returning again to their vomit.  Pr. 
For these sayings of S. Barnard, how it toucheth the jesuits I will not trouble myself, but as I said, our not intermeddling in matters of Estate may be a very great motive to her Majesty, & her Counsel, why they should do us more pleasures, and show us greater favours than the jesuits, and such as run their courses: which cause being no fault in us, but a laudable thing and conformable to our function, if we should reap favours therefore, they ought not in conscience to be turned to our reproach and infamy, as though we were favoured by them for some lewd demeanour; and the jesuits ought to blame themselves, if for their dangerous tampering in things which belong them not, they should find some extraordinary affliction, or not the like favours that three or four semenarie Priests have done.  Gent. 
Indeed there is no reason to the contrary, the jealousy of our magistrates, and the State of our Country considered.  Pr. 
But now what benefits and favours be these, which any of ours receive so extraordinarily above the jesuits, and their adherents?  Gent. 
The report flieth, That besides this liberty and favour which M. Bluet, and M. Clarke find, that you all are maintained by the Lords of the Counsel, that you want nothing, and therefore are not to have allowance, or a part out of any common alms, or money given for relief of poor Catholic Priests, and prisoners?  Pr. 
What think you of this report?  Gent. 
I think it very false.  Pr. 
I assure you upon my soul it is so, yet is not this fiction contrived simply to discredit us, but framed also for a quarrel & colourable pretence, whereby our adversaries may seem as it were upon just occasion to deprive us of our portion in all charitable gifts. And so by debarring us of necessary relief, this way they may effect that which Fa. Parsons writeth in a letter of his, and his associates in England earnestly labour to bring us unto, that is, By poverty and extreme want of necessaries, to enforce us to yield in all things to their wills. The two pricks they shoot at, is their own credit or advancement above the whole clergy of England, and that they may have the command and managing of the purse and all. To effect these, it is necessary, all that stand in their way, or may seem to look into or mislike their doings, be brought low and disabled with discredit & poverty. See you not how they (having the Archp. and the assistants at their beck, to do against the priests whatsoever they will set them on) use his authority to afflict and injury us as they list? Have they left any thing undone by untrue slanders and calumnies of schism, rebellion, enormous disobedience, etc. to defame us all over the Christian world, and to discredit us for ever. Our credits gone, and our good names taken thus unjustly from us, what remained safe to preserve us from utter undoing? Was there any thing left us to live upon, but only the use of our faculties, and our ministery at God's altar? By these two we were relieved in our wants, and we were harboured among good people.  
Behold now and admire the rare perfection and charity of these men, when they had most wrongfully defamed us, that this wound might remain uncurable, and this damage might rest unrecoverable, unless we should adventure the loss of our lives therefore, they have taken from us our faculties also, and suspended us, the only means wherewith we lived. And for what crimes did they this? for peaceably defending our good names; for desiring that the controversy might be referred to the hearing and judgement of the See Apostolic; for appealing to his Ho. without the Archp. his licence. They threaten us all most disgracefully, unless we recall our names from the appeal. Some they have thrust from their places, where they had harbour and maintenance, to shift at random in the world; prohibiting their Catholic benefactors and ghostly children to have any dealing with them: as Fa. Holtby the jesuit, and M. Singleton the assistant have done with M. Stevenson; the Archpriest and jesuits with M. Drury, etc. Others they endeavour in what they can to displace, as the Archp. hath done against M. Neadam, M. Collington, M. Much, etc. who also with like charity have withdrawn and averted all relief (to speak of) from all the priests in prisons, which stand against them. And that with more pretence of reason they may debar us of maintenance, they give out, That diverse of us gave great store of money, and hoards of treasure, which may sufficiently relieve the rest. Finally, that the infamy may run more smoothly among Catholics, and our poverty be less pitied by charitable people; rumours are spread everywhere, that forsooth twelve of us were at once in conference with a chief Counsellor, who after their departure, exclaimed against them, saying, That they were the most impudent men that ever he had seen, for they would boldly teach and direct him what he was to do. And again, answered it with a vehement oath (say they) that these priests would beggar him, for he had given them already five hundred pound, and yet they would have more.  Gent. 
I remember, that two years ago I saw a letter of Father Parsons, sent by him from Rome into England, wherein he signified, That the Pope and Cardinals were informed of Master Doctor Bagsha, that he was singularly favoured and entreated by the Queen and Counsel, and that he had a yearly pension or annuity of them: which it was not likely they would grant to any, without doing them some piece of service, answerable to their desires.  Pr. 
I also had a sight of the letter, wherein the good man was much injuried diverse ways by slanderous reports. But this same letter bewrayed Fa. Parson's stomach to be overloaden with gall and bitterness against the Doctor; who notwithstanding all their improbable and uncharitable slanders, hath carried himself with that constancy and good zeal, as well upon the rack, where he was severely dealt with, as also in prisons these many years, that the malignity of his adversaries will ever turn to their own shame, and make to him a brighter crown of glory and renown. It is well known, that the jesuits have and do mightily stomach him: who then are likely to be these informers to the Pope and Cardinals? not Fa. Parsons (forsooth) and his jesuits, they are Saintlike men, and running to perfection, they have no leisure nor lust to revenge reddere malum pro malo, they be untrue surmises, wrongfully conceived experiments, and fantastical feelings, that Fa. Parsons and the jesuits be implacable men, when they take aversions, that they seek revenge, that they persecute their adversaries, give maledictum pro maledicto, or be impatient when they are contradicted. Such as have had bickering with them in any matter, can best witness what themselves have found. If they be such perfect patiented and mild spirited men, it were sin to suspect so foul a crime of them, as this is. But if their adversaries have always found them to use as sharp teeth, and as hurtful tongues, to the renting asunder their good names, and wounding them otherwise (yet all in secret manner) as any other men, they have had occasions to deal with; the conjecture will not be much wide, if they repute them to be informers of these slanderous reports in Rome against their conceived enemy Doctor Bag. And this judgement is more freer from all danger of temerity, the more assuredly we have known and seen these religious Fathers to employ themselves very fervently to defame us here at home without any just cause given them on our part.  Gent. 
These proceed of theirs seem strange to me, and make me quake through fear: for I cannot see how they can be defended.  Pr. 
Nor I neither in troth, except perhaps they will salve all by their common medicine, and the end of all they do; that is, propter maiorem Dei gloriam, and so they cannot do amiss, as long as they intent and refer all to this.  Gent. 
Ad maioram Dei gloriam?  Pr. 
Yea, and is not this an end or an intention of highest merit?  Gent. 
I grant it is. For not only the intentions and end of men's actions must be good, but also the means used to it. For as Christ's Apostle saith: Non est faciendum malum, ut inde veniat bonum. But I cannot perceive how disgrace and defaming Catholic Priests can be drawn by the jesuits to be a mean ad maiorem Dei gloriam.  Priest. 
You know nothing. Is it not ad maiorem dei gloriam, that religious men which have forsaken the world and all preferments for gaining of souls, should be advanced in estimation and credit before secular priests, which are entangled in worldly affairs, and by reason of their cumbersome estate, cannot attain to the perfection of virtue, nor work so great good among Christian souls as the religious?  Gent. 
This seemeth to be no better than an absurd paradox. For it is fittest in my opinion, that greatest respect and reputation be made of the secular priests and pastors, which have charge over souls, & which by their state and vocation are bound not only to instruct well their people by Catholic and wholesome doctrine, but more over by their virtuous life and conversation to give their people exterior examples of well doing. A jesuit, or any religious man, after he hath preached his sermon, after he hath catechized the people, or heard confessions, or red his lecture, or ministered any Sacrament, etc. is not by his profession bound to remain still among the people, and himself to practise in open show what he had taught, and to be ready at all occasions to help and counsel his auditors: but he may and is by his state tied to retire himself into his cloister or college, where he may be thus, or so; good, or bad, as he is disposed: if good, to little edification in the world; if bad, to small scandal, because he is hid and shut up from the eyes of the people. He is not to look or hunt for credit, it is enough for him to be a religious man, to observe the rules and discipline of his order, to preach good doctrine, and sufficiently to minister the Sacraments he taketh in hand. But a pastor, besides his diligent endeavours in teaching and dispensing of the mysteries of God, must also at all times and in all occasions, by his virtuous carriage give a light unto his flock, what they are to do and imitate, or else he faileth in the performance of his duty. And again, unless he have good credit, and be well esteemed among his people, neither his doctrine nor example shall much profit; men being naturally inclined rather to imitate & frame themselves to a meaner person, of whom they carry an high conceit, than to a better, whom yet they value not so much. And surely in my fantasy the church is happy, and that people cannot but do well, where the Pastors and Prelates teaching and living well, are best beloved, honoured, and esteemed of above all others. Religious men are good condjutors, and deserve praise, honour, and love, if they tender the pastors credit among the people more than their own; if they draw the people more to reverence & obey their Priests; and if they endeavour to make a strict bond of love, honour, and union, between the sheep and their ordinary shepherds. But if once they hunt after a singular name and credit, and within another man's fold, and aspire to an estimation above the Pastor, this breedeth dislike, division, and contempt of the people towards their Prelate, and it cannot be but culpable before God and man, as perverting all good order in the government of God's church, and robbing secular Pastors of their due. The religious at no time more deservedly win credit to themselves, than when they seek the honour and credit of secular Priests which have charge of souls, and with humility of heart fly temporal estimation, and desire to be reputed abject or inferiors to all.  Pr. 
You say well, but now in England the case standeth not so, for the secular priests be no pastors, nor have more charge of souls than the jesuits, and therefore your reason holdeth not.  Gent. 
I know it is in England, as you have said; jesuits and Priests have like charge; but yet, if ever our country be reclaimed to the Catholic faith, and united again to the church of God, they be secular priests, and not jesuits, which must be Pastors, and have the charge of souls: which happy change, whether it will come in our days, or no, none knoweth but God. But come when it shall, it is now before it come most expedient and necessary for that day, that secular priests which must have the charge when it cometh, be not undescruedly bereaved of their credits and good names, but be esteemed equally with the jesuits, in respect of the charge and toils they undertake for saving of souls, not inferior any way in man's eye, as now the game goeth, to the charity and travels of these religious men.  Pr. 
Well, for this point I will not stand with you, let your reasons have what weight they shall, I will not discuss them, because we have digressed too far. Let us suppose this principle of theirs to be true, That it is ad maiorem Dei gloriam, that their religions have credit above ordinary Pastors, and Priests may not they then seek to have it?  Gent. 
Upon that supposition perhaps there will follow no less, but I can never yield to that supposition.  Pr. 
Let not the supposition trouble you for this time.  Gent. 
It shall pass then. But what then?  Pr. 
Marry, what if these religious men should have a conceit not only that some secular priests of good fame and credit be their adversaries; but moreover, that it were good by some odd devise to pull them down, and to disgrace them; which things being cunningly brought to pass, all would redound to the credit of their society, and thus all would go round with them: might they not hereupon disgrace and defame them too upon any small show of offence?  Gent. 
In my conceit, no. Good men often fall at variance and dissension, and to discredit or defame one's adversary unjustly, without observing the order of justice, charity, and conscience, can never be taken as a lawful or as a good means to work a man's own credit, or the greater glory of God, as I said in the beginning.  Priest. 
If this be so, then let the jesuits look to it, what means they use and accomodat to this end of their actions proclaimed every where, ad maiorem Dei gloriam. For me, I want wit to see how they can apply these disgraces and slanders, wherewith they have oppressed us, to the greater glory of the true God, though perhaps for a while this odd manner of proceeding may seem to further their desired credit and advancement. But now to the slander, it is so manifest an untruth, that I am persuaded surely the reporters themselves know it so to be, & this the more, if they impose it upon us all. For they cannot be ignorant, how that divers of us, who now they persecute, never had to do with the Counsel or magistrate, or received other benefit from them than persecution. If they will charge any particular man that receiveth the feigned maintenance, let them name him, that the rest may be freed, and not deprived of Catholic alms for another man's fault; if perhaps these good religious Fathers judge it a fault, for any of us in these extreme wants of relief, brought upon us by their uncharitable dealings, to receive alms at the hands of our adversaries in Faith, when we are denied it of Catholics,  Gent. 
They name M. Doctor Bag. and the report runneth generally of you all.  Pr. 
For us all it is needless to say more: now for Doctor Bagsha, of whom by likelihood Father Parsons had informed the Pope and Cardinals to have yearly annuity of the Queen; it is no better than a malicious calumny, purposely devised and cast abroad to make the good man odious to all honest minds. In the tower indeed, while he was prisoner for his Faith, he had the Queen's ordinary allowance granted before to Fa. Campion, Fa. Hawood, after to Father john Gerrard, jesuits, and denied to no poor prisoner there. In the gatehouse also, in his last troubles which were procured to him (as many probably affirm, by some busy plotting jesuits beyond, when they tampered with Squire about doing violence to her Majesty's person) he had the Queen's allowance during his abode there (as they say:) and it may perhaps be, that finding him guiltless of all those treasonable practices, the Counsel bestowed some thing on him towards his charges in that trouble, or surely it had been a deed of charity to have been done so. But what is all this to Fa. Parson's information of an annuity, or to the report that now flieth currant against him and all the rest, of being maintained by the Counsel?  Gent. 
Nothing at all.  Priest. 
It is a world's wonder therefore to behold how forward, and how eager these religious men be, to make all our friends and benefactors to forsake us, both for entertainment and relief. And besides these reports, all untrue as you see, they use another pretty mean to withdraw our Catholic friends, from us.  Gent. 
What may this be I pray you?  Pr. 
Mary, when no other devise will serve to work this feat, the religious Fathers turn themselves to terrify our friends and benefactors, from relieving us, by dreadful threats; as, that whosoever standeth with us in these controversies against them, shall have all confiscated before the twelve months end, and be left not worth a groat.  Gent. 
Belike they have laid their plot, and think it sure, to have their desired effect.  Priest. 
I know not what, nor how they have plotted, but this bug flieth all over.  Gent. 
How know you that it proceedtth from the jesuits?  Pr. 
I doubt not but the original is from them, because their intierest friends & adherents prattle it every where. Again, it hath been long the fashion of the religious Fathers to put men into great expectation of favour and advancement when their day shall come, and to ring every year fresh alarms of foreign preparations, and I know not what; that by these vain hopes, and hurtful babbles, they may retain their old friends and win new, and withal drive fearful conceits into the minds of all such as run not their courses.  Gent. 
Truly I think this to be so; and myself have heard some priests familiar with them, which yet exceedingly misliked their doings & busy tampering, say, These jesuits look one day to have the dealing of all bishoprics and Ecclesiastical livings, unless we flatter them and feed their humours, we shall get nothing.  Pr. 
These were baseminded priests.  Gent. 
They be so indeed, yet they are highly esteemed of by the jesuits, for seeming forward men for them.  Pr. 
I abhor such collouging. But to put you out of doubt whence these threats have their origine, I assure you it was a famous father of the jesuits, that in plain words said to a gentlewoman of good calling, which charitably respected the disgraced priests, and was resolved to stand indifferent to all, until the controversy were decided by the Church: Now (said he) is the time of trial, they that are not with us, are against us (the good man would have had her neither to relieve nor harbour any of us, but to shun us all, as rebellious schismatics) if you forsake them not now, you will overthrow yourself and all your posterity for ever. This he said to affright the charitable gentlewoman, as though the state of her posterity should be utterly overthrown, unless she adhered to the jesuits (for who must not stand at their devotion, when all cometh to their sharing) and do bad offices against us priests, her known Catholic and sincere friends. What more? was it not another jesuit with his assistant, which caused a Gentleman either to promise or to swear, that he should stand fast unto them, and inform whatsoever he saw or heard by priests and others, done against them and the Archp. his proceed? They made the lay gentleman their spy, (as they have every where many such, as well lay men, as women & priests) upon promise on their side again to him, that he should be restored to all his lands forfeited by his ancestors in a commotion by an attainder, when the world should fall on their side. The silly Gentleman moved with this hope, undertook the disgraceful office, and said to his friends that he had wrought a very good days work when he entered this covenant: yet coming among his old acquaintance, he would now and then reveal the secret, and forewarn them to speak nothing which they were not willing to have carried further: for he had undertaken and promised to inform what he heard.  Gent. 
This was a very bad office for a Gentleman, surely he was some fool.  Pr. 
Nay, no fool for want of wit; but in truth the politic practices and the cunning devices used by jesuits in our nation these late years, have not only much impeached the due estimation, honour, and reverent respect which the laity carried towards Catholic priests before they entered among us, and some while after; but it hath more over exceedingly decayed the natural sincere condition of our people; and there the most, where these fathers have had most conversation and dealing: many of modest and temperate constitution are become imperious, brazen faced, and furious men against priests; they that were lowly and humble, peremptory, rash in their judgements and disdainful; the simple and sincere, are grown to be cunning and double dealers, full of equivocations in their words, & dissembling in their behaviour. But to come to the slanderous report we have in hand, what say you? Have you any more to object for them, or you rest satisfied?  Gent. 
I have no more to say, but am sorry that upon so slender grounds, the jesuits, with the Archp. and their adherents, raise up such slanderous buildings.  Pr. 
Well then, shall we pass to some other points?  Gent. 
With a good will.  Priest. 
Go to then, what is the next?   

The third slander.  Gent. 
They report that your cause hath been tried already at Rome, and the two messengers you sent heard, condemned, and punished, & all you in them. So that it is nothing but your contentious spirits that move you without any cause, to stir afresh in these matters; for you can never be at rest, because you are full of emulation, and you cannot endure to obey your Archpriest, because you are ambitious and desirous of authority yourselves.  Pr. 
For our disobedience to the Archpriest, it is refuted before, I need to say no more of that calumny. And touching the other, That we are ambitious, and would have the authority ourselves; this is also an improbable devised slander by our adversaries. How know they that we are ambitious?  Gent. 
Mary they say that M. Coll. should have been Archbishop of Canterbury, and M. Much Archbishop of York, and the rest of you in like sort sought for other dignities.  Priest. 
These truly be no other than malignant fictions of our adversaries, which respect not how they do it, so they may detract us, and make us more odious among priests and Catholics in our nation. But this only reason quite confoundeth them, That none of them is able to charge any of us in particular with any such attempt, that by word or deed we ever went about our own preferment. For in all things concerning these matters of procuring bishops, or suffragans, or other prelate's for governing our church, after the death of Cardinal Allen, when very scandalous contentions grew between the jesuits and some seminary priests at Wisbich, our adversaries cannot say that we went about it secretly, did any thing, or intended to do, but by the general consents and concurrence of all our brethren priests and jesuits, referring all as well for the kind of government, as for the men to be preferred, to the voices, good liking, and choice of every one. And only we propounded to our brethren what we judged fittest, desiring every one to give their consent and opinion also, that whatsoever should be propounded to his Holiness, might be as from us all, or the most. This being true, as our adversaries cannot deny it to be, what a wilful perversity is it in them, to charge us with ambition? and this the rather, for that they are not ignorant how unlikely it was, that these whom they most note with this slander, should be chosen to these rooms, if the election should have passed by free voice & general consent of our whole clergy. For emulation, it is a frivolous toy; for admit any of us were of that ambitious humour they report us to be, yet is there no such good or pleasure in the Archp. his authority, as any of us should emulate him for it, or desire to have it from him: neither since the beginning hath his carriage been in that office so commendable for discretion, sincerity, upright dealing among his brethren, moderation, prudence, compassion, and other virtues requisite to be in a superior, especially in this afflicted state of ours, that he hath given any man occasion to envy his credit, or covet the glory of his actions. But many he hath stirred up to mislike him and his government, and to lament the woeful state of our Church, managed by so unfit a man. For surely, if I were devoid of grace, and if I were his mortal enemy, I could not have wished him to have governed and behaved himself in worse sort than he hath done.  Gent. 
I have heard of little good or none, that he hath done since his first entrance into the office: but sure I am, our Church was never so harmed by contentions and scandals, as it hath been in these three years of his government.  Priest. 
No marvel, when he is wholly led by the jesuits, the principal authors and parties in these dissensions. But now concerning, that they say our cause hath been heard already, & judged at Rome against us, and thereupon our two messengers punished, and we all in them; it is a manifest untruth, as appeareth by M. Doctor Bishops answer to Fa. Parson's letter, and by the censure of the same letter, all in print: for by Fa. Parson's wicked & false information our two priests could never have access to his Ho. nor audience, but were shortly after their arrival apprehended as notable malefactors, shut up severally in very close prison under Fa. Par. custody. Fa. P. was the misinformer to his Ho. Fa. P. was the guide to the officers that apprehended them. Fa. P. was their jailer, their examiner, the appointer of his brother jesuit to be the scribe & notary. Fa. P. was the framer of libels against them, the procurer & instructor of two English priests his deputies, to prefer his libels against them. Fa. P. was the inventor, whisperer, and soother of all bad matters, which might bring them in hatred: the disposer of the time and manner of their audience before two Cardinals, seven weeks after their taking, the contriver and moderator in all those actions, the ransacker of all their writings and stuff. Fa. P. would never permit them to confer together, nor the one to see the other, till they appeared before the Cardinal. Fa. P. prohibited them to have a copy of the slanderous libels, which he had caused to be read in the Cardinal's presence for their disgrace, or to answer to them. Fa. P. deprived them of all advise and helps of learned counsel. Fa. P. shut them up again for other seven or eight weeks more, until he had procured the Pope's Breve for confirmation of the authority, which himself had by collusion obtained a year before. And after (lest they should return to England, and tell tales of his cruelty and corrupt dealings) Fa. Par. plotted and devised their miserable banishment, the one into Paris, the other into Mussipont in Lorraine. It was Fa. P. that in Rome laboured to discredit them and all our Clergy, by carrying about and showing their linen socks, their handkerchifes, their nightcoyfes, very mean in respect of such as himself and his jesuits have worn in England, and their silk points of 12. pence the dozen. Fa. P. dismissed one many days after the other, least traveling together, they should have too much comfort and help in so long a journey. Fa. P. sent them away without viaticum, or any farthing of provision and allowance to live upon, how long soever the time of their banishment should last; and yet Fa. P. charitably provided that they should not for any cause depart from those places, without incurring the greatest censures.  Gent. 
This man seemeth to have a violent, or rather a cruel spirit.  Priest. 
He hath so no doubt, where he is offended, and can execute his will.  Gent. 
Why did these two Priests go to Rome.  Priest. 
First to know assuredly whether the Archp. authority was instituted by his Holiness; for it was brought without any Apostolical writ. Again, to declare unto his Ho. the difficulties and inconveniencies thereof, and the harms probably like to ensue to our whole Church, unless it were altered. Again, truly to inform his Ho. of the state of our Church in all things; and lastly, to know his good pleasure what he would have us to do, and to bring us word thereof.  Gent. 
These were good causes of going to Rome: if these were all, they deserved neither imprisonment, nor banishment, nor in any sort should they have been hardly used, or denied audience. Surely they had committed some other fault.  Priest. 
None at all surely. Fa. Parson feared, lest if they should have had free audience, they would have detected his cunning dealing with the Pope, in procuring the new authority; & with our Church, in imposing it so violently upon our Clergy; and have finally overthrown all his plots laid for oppressing our priests, & the advancement of his soietie in England. For this cause having Cardinal Caiet. ready to inform, and effect whatsoever he would move him to, he maliciously informed the Pope against our priests, shut up all the ways of audience, and got them taken, and committed to close prison, before ever they were heard, & at the last banished.  Gent. 
They were brought before the Cardinal Caietane, and another Cardinal in the English College, and then heard what they could say.  Pr. 
After seven weeks close imprisonment, they were called before them indeed, their examinations taken by Fa. P. of many impertinent matters, were read, and after there was a shameful slanderous libel exhibited against them, and read by M. Haddock and M. Array, two English priests, suborned by Fa. P. and ready for whatsoever he would bid them do to serve his turn: which yet our priests could not be permitted to have a copy of, nor to answer unto. And for their main business, it was nothing at all to the purpose spoken of.  Gent. 
Why did not your priests deliver their businesses to the Cardinals at that time?  Priest. 
Because they were not called forth for that end, but as malefactors to answer to whatsoever Fa. Par. had devised against them. And they saw neither time nor place fit to deliver it, where the iniquity of Fa. P. so much prevailed, and all justice and indifferency was abandoned, especially they perceiving Fa. Parsons (without discontenting Cardinal Caietane by so doing) disposed to deride and make to seem contemptible both the men, and whatsoever they said in any thing that crossed his humour. They asked the Cardinal if he condemned their coming to the See Apostolic about the affairs of their Church. He said no, it was lawful. Why then are we thus punished said they? Not for your coming, but because you have thereby and by your contentions, scandalised many in England. And in the sentence of the Cardinals, the crimes for which they were banished, are specified to be neither schism nor rebellion, nor enormous disobedience to the Pope, or Archpriest: but because they had had contentions in England with men of their own order, whether justly or injustly they had these contentions, it is not declared; that so untrue a calumny might go more currant in those doubtful speeches, whereas no bad or unjust dealings of theirs in England could be proved against them before those Cardinals, but all matters were shuffled up, and done just as Fa. P. would have them.  Gent. 
Whereby it seemeth that this controversy of yours was never at that time discussed or mentioned at all in Rome.  Pr. 
They there never had it in question or speech whether we were schismatics, or rebellious, or enormiously disobedient, for our bearing off to accept the authority, before the coming of the Breve. And therefore you may see by this, what little truth is in the jesuits words, when they affirm that our cause was heard, and sentence given against us in Rome.  Gent. 
Why have they tampered so much in these matters against you?  Pr. 
Oh, they be jesuits, they must be stirring, and the true causes are these: They would not be subordinat in any manner to ordinary prelates in England, as to Bishops, Suffragans, etc. but bear themselves the greatest sway in the government of our Church, and disposing of all things. To exclude therefore all ordinary prelate's, which were to be chosen by voices and common consent of our clergy, they prevented us secretly, by getting an Archp. to rule over all, except themselves. This authority was of their own devising; the man preferred thereto of their own election; in whose government also and actions, they provided, that themselves should have a principal stroke; that forsooth in every matter of importance the Archp. should have the advise and direction of the head jesuit in England. Thus their wills should be fulfilled without check, in all they listed to attempt or desire. Now after they had by false suggestion, by many ways procured this new authority, and brought us all into their bondage, it behoved them to hold it by violence and strong hand, which they had contrived by such cunning, for their own particular, without respect of conscience or charity. The end I told you of admaiorem dei gloriam, which is chiefly by the advancement of their society, salueth all odd dealings.  Gent. 
It were more time that we proceeded to some other matter, for I should understand this more by reading the censure and letter you spoke of.  Pr. 
Let us so do; what is the next?   

The fourth Slander.  Gent. 
The report is all over, That you be adversaries or enemies to the jesuits, which are known to be religious men of singular virtue and perfection, and to whom above all men, our nation is most bound; and many things are said of your hard dealing against them.  Pr. 
I pray you let us hear all, and I shall satisfy you in every point as well as I can.  Gent. 
I shall speak all, as it cometh to my remembrance.  Priest. 
Do so; but for this you have said, what ground have they to prove us their enemies, or in what are we their enemies, say they? I know some have said and written, That we are enemies to their religious perfection.  Gent. 
I also have heard the same of their dearest favourites.  Priest. 
This is a rash and uncharitable calumny: For no man can be an enemy to religious perfection, but thereby he falleth from God's grace. For albeit no man out of vow be bound under mortal sin, to observe the evangelical counsels, yet can no Christian hate the observers of them, or become their enemy for that respect, but he offendeth mortally thereby. If therefore it be certain, that we be their enemies, it is no less certain, that the cause is not any part of religious perfection to be noted in them: for otherwise should we be enemies also to the religious men of other orders, as to Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines, Carthusians, and the rest; in all the which, no man except a jesuit, will deny as much religious perfection to be found, as is among the jesuits; yea, we should be more enemies to all them than to jesuits, if this were the cause that moveth us in this case. For all these have the essential vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, as well as jesuits; and it is to be supposed, that they observe them as perfectly. Besides, they have their continual abstinence, their diverse Lents, and many extraordinary fasts, their nightly rise and watchings to sing laudes to God, to meditate and to pray, their great castigations, and usual afflictions of their bodies; by disciplines, hard diet,, sharp attire, and other means of mortification. (All which the jesuits want, more than that now & then like good ordinary secular priests, they will be doing something, but little to account of in respect of the continued toils and mortifications of other holy religions men of all sorts.) Now, if religious perfection were the cause of this feigned hatred or enmity, we should be most aversed from all these orders, in which we know these means of perfections, or perfections most to abound; and most love and embrace the jesuits, in whom we know all these to be wanting. But neither be we enemies to those holy orders, neither will those holy men impute unto us this calumny, neither can the jesuits themselves be ignorant, that we love and honour those orders and men for their great virtues and mortification of life. And therefore this slander is intolerable injury unto us all, to make the world believe us so void of grace and godliness, that we are enemies to the jesuits for their virtue and perfection: thus putting us in the rank of the vilest miscreants that are, or can be imagined. The truth therefore is, that we love and honour the jesuits order, and should both love and honour them more, the more they and their order tendeth to perfection, and the lowlier conceit they carried of themselves. And if we be their adversaries, it is for some other cause than their virtues.  Gent. 
For what I pray you?  Pr. 
No other but the very same, for which the jesuits have accounted many men of great virtue and calling to be their adversaries.  Gent. 
Father Parsons in his Wardword to Sir Francis Hastings, seemeth to say, that none but badly disposed men, and wretches given over to wickedness, are adversaries to jesuits. How then can it be, that good men are their adversaries, as you say?  Priest. 
I say not that good men were their adversaries, but that they accounted many virtuous men their adversaries. For albeit they reckon every one to be their adversary that crosseth their doings in any respect; yet in truth a virtuous man in so doing is their friend: and if selfe-liking were abandoned, would be so esteemed by them. They only, and some such like, as Fa. P. there speaketh of, are their true adversaries, which hate and mislike their virtue and well doing, and go about to hinder this, be it in a jesuit, or in any other honest Catholic man.  Gent. 
Such wicked men be adversaries to all true Christians; but yet Fa. Parsons, with many beyond, and these jesuits in England, account you, and all your adherents here or abroad, to be adversaries to their society.  Pr. 
I grant they do. But this is because we contradict and resist the ill actions and proceed of some particular men of their society. For they must have all approved and justified, whatsoever any of them doth, otherwise you cannot be thought their friend. This is a comfort, that we may be right good men before God and the world, notwithstanding these Fathers account us their adversaries, yea, and persecute us also, as they have, and do. For many priests whom they have sought vehemently to discredit by this report of being their adversaries, and therefore have disgraced them in what they could, as well in England, as in our Colleges under their government beyond (which almost never have been free from grievous contentions) are now glorious Martyrs in heaven; which being rejected and persecuted by them, yet laboured in God's vineyard here as painfully and as fruitfully (to say no more) as any jesuit in the realm: yea, and when it came to the trial of their virtue; their resolution, and their constant charity, these outcasts the jesuits adversaries were always found no less patiented in torments and prisons, and no less courageous in shedding their blood for defence of Christ's cause, than any of the jesuits. This was manifest (to let all the rest of the Martyrs and confessors pass) in the blessed priests, M. john Ingram, M. Thomas Pormort, and M. Lanton, glorious Martyrs, yet reckoned in the number of the jesuits adversaries, yea, and not a little afflicted and disgraced by them for the same. What will Fa. P. and the jesuits say to the most gracious and peerless jewel of our country, Cardinal Allen? Must he for company also be ranged and thrust into that predicament of their adversaries, where Fa. P. affirmeth to Sir Francis Hastings, that none be the jesuits adversaries, except Heretics, Apostates, dissolute men, disobedient malcontents, & the like? It were too too bad impudency and intolerable malice to say, that he was not a right virtuous, a wise, and a gracious man.  Gent. 
Yea; but he was not the jesuits adversary.  Pr. 
Then they foully bely him. For I assure you, myself have often heard some jesuits earnestly affirm, that he was their adversary, and much aversed from them before his death.  Gent. 
I marvel greatly, that any of them having wit, will report this: for that must be a great discredit to them, to say, that a man of those graces, which every way he was known to have, were their adversary, and aversed from them; considering all men hearing this, would forthwith conceive some evil desert to be in them, by reason whereof he was become their adversary.  Pr. 
The reporters were told no less; but what is to be expected, where overweening of themselves, blindeth these Saints? Now then Cardinal Allen was their adversary by their own confession; but Cardinal Allen was well known in Christendom to be a good virtuous man: than it followeth, that good men may be the jesuits adversaries: and again, that in truth it is no discredit for a Catholic priest to be their adversary, to contradict or withstand them in any ill attempt or action of theirs: and lastly, it followeth, that the jesuits be no such Saints, as their good end of doing all ad maiorem dei gloriam can justify and make currant all they do.  Gent. 
But what? was Cardinal Allen their adversary indeed?  Priest. 
I know that he misliked and condemned many things the jesuits did, and in this sort he was their adversary, and so be we. For I have heard him much condemn their government of our college in Rome; namely, for their want of frugality, and using the houses living to the most benefit of our nation; for their palpable partiality to some of the students above the rest; for their continual enticing and drawing by an hundred cunning means, our most towardly youths to be of their society: for keeping such many times as they had alured and won unto them, under the names of our scholars, till they had ended their courses of study; by which policy, the jesuits novices occupied the rooms provided for our students, and by them, more were enticed to become jesuits. Again he condemned their government, in that for very trifles they would discontent and afflict the students, yea, and upon light occasions disgrace them, dismiss them before their time, and taking displeasure, endanger for a toy to break and overthrow men of many good parts and expectation. He was wont to say, that the governors of that College, and their fellows in England, had a greater respect to their own interest or benefit in both places, than to the common good of our country.  Gent. 
If he had thus mistiked them, why being in authority, made he not redress thereof?  Priest. 
Without peradventure he misliked no less than I have told you, but why he reform not all, I know not certainly. He was of a mild and of a quiet natural disposition, ever unwilling to take any rough or severe course, or to give the jesuits so great disgust, as he must have done, if he should have reform what was needful. These mislikes he had of their proceed both in England and in Rome, made known unto them by sweet and friendly admonition, caused them to account and report him to be their adversary. What would they have done (think you) if either he had removed them from the government of the College, or recalled them out of England?  Gent. 
During his life, all was well in England, and in that College of Rome also.  Pr. 
It was not so evil in either place then, as since his death it hath been; but yet he perceived well how in England the jesuits little tendered the good & credit of our priests, and how that the more they had dealing among the ablest sort of Catholics, the more decayed the maintenance of our seminary at Douai or Rheims, the customary alms not coming from England to it, as before there did when the secular priests had more doing. By reason of which want, that seminary (the mother of all the rest, and then much better to our nation than all the rest, with it, are at this day) decayed every year more and more in the Cardinal's time. And for the College at Rome, it was often in his time also in great tumult and garboil, by reason of the contentions between the jesuits and scholars: which ever the gracious Cardinal pacified again and suppressed, before it gave scandal abroad, by his quiet, wise, and moderate dealing with both parties. Yet have I heard him much complain of the jesuits heady and undiscreet government, and say their government is nought, and they will never amend it, for they will not hear advise: whilst I live, I shall keep all down, but after I be dead, ye shall see the scholars and them at woeful dissensions.  Gent. 
It is strange, the jesuits being good men, they should rule so ill.  Priest. 
It is not strange, for it is usual in all estates, That the best men are not the best rulers. If a man lack the gifts of prudence, of justice, and discretion, of sincerity, and of compassion in his actions, be he otherwise never so great a Saint, he shall never govern well. The general of the jesuits order that now liveth, was often wont to say to our Cardinal, that he could have store of learned and virtuous men, but he found very few good governors among his subjects; which is a defect (as I said) common to all orders and sorts of people. Cardinal Allen would say that Fa. Creswell the jesuit, & once a turbulent Rector in the English College at Rome, was a good man, and fit to be a subject, but the unfittest to be a superior of any man that ever he had known: For (said he) his delight was, to be afflicting the scholars, and it was all one to be an orderly or disorderly man under him; because if they were externally unruly, he would punish them, and if externally they observed their rules, he would yet be ever displeased, and vexing them, saying, That in their hearts they were ill disposed, and that they conspired against him to observe the rules in outward show only, to the intent he should not give them penances.  Gent. 
This was very foolish proceeding in a government, & it argued an undiscreet and busy head.  Priest. 
I tell it you as the Cardinal told it me: but let us go forward, to show that they be not always in Fa. Parson's bad predicament, whom the jesuits account their adversaries. We have said of Cardinal Allen. Now let us come to Cardinal Borromie, the late Archbishop of Milan, famous for his virtue and wisdom throughout all Christendom. The jesuits reckoned him among their adversaries, for I have heard a jesuit say it.  Gent. 
Why should that blessed man be thought or reckoned their adversary?  Priest. 
Not surely for that he either hated or disliked any virtue in them, but because they saw him to mislike, condemn, and resist their ordinary disordered proceed in the government of his seminaries. For perceiving them ever to be diligently fishing among his scholars, to draw the best and most towardly of them into their society, whereby in short time his Churches were to lack sufficient Pastors, and to be greatly damnified; he took from them the government of his seminaries, and committed them to discreet secular priests. Which prudent fact of his, being (as they interpreted it) both to the jesuits some dscredit and detriment, how could they but reckon him their adversary? Cardinal Toledo also, who had been one of their society from his youth, the first Cardinal of their order, was not he in like manner reputed their adversary, as well before his promotion, as after?  Gent. 
I have heard some jesuits report hardly of that man, for crossing them in many things, and amongst the rest, in the government of the English College at Rome, when he put them all from thence, except four, and reform the government, to the great comfort and good of our students, as long as that good Cardinal lived. Some also of them reported disgraceful things of his death.  Pr. 
If they conceive a man to be their adversary, he shall be assured to want their good word: but yet notwithstanding the disgraceful reports some here have made of his death, I have heard one, in whose arms it is said he gave up the ghost, testify, That he made a virtuous end. The jesuits will not deny, but that they have adversaries in France, yea Catholics, which concurred to their expulsion thence, and still resist their bringing in again. What? will they affirm all the French nation, which be their adversaries, the King, the Cardinals, the Bishops, the inferior Clergy, the Divines, the Universities, the Nobility, the Gentry, and all the people together, to be in Fa. Parson's graceless predicament, and to be bad men? If they presume thus far, who will believe them? But before the general banishments of the jesuits out of France, they ever accounted the University of Paris, and many Prelates and lay men, to have been their adversaries or heavy friends, when there was no suspicion of joining against them with an heretical or an evil prince. What can they say to the Bishops and Pastors in the Low countries, and the Universities of Douai, whom they reckon to be their adversaries, by reason of the great contentions had between them about eight years ago? What to the Universities of Louvain, with whom they have had bickering since? What to the whole order of Dominicans (letting pass other religious) between whom and them there hath been of long, as is, continual bitter strifes in Spain, as all the world knoweth? And all these included in Fa. Parson's ugly beadroll? If all these be of bad disposition, and graceless, because they be the jesuits adversaries, then have we also good cause to dread: but if contrariwise these be reported to be their adversaries, and are indeed no less than we, and yet known to be good Catholic men, Universities, and orders; it is no true cause of disgrace unto us, if we be reported also their adversaries, for defending ourselves against their violent injuries, and for resisting their other courses, manifestly hurtful to our whole church.  Gent. 
What is the cause that they make these troubles, and give such discontent almost in every place where they come?  Pr. 
Surely not any perfection of virtue that is in them above other religious men, but their politic tampering, and their busy stirring both in temporal states, and Ecclesiastical. For they being not tied to keep the choir with divine offices, as other religious orders be, they have more leisure and liberty than any other, to occupy themselves in matters impertinent unto them. It is their glory to be ever stirring in the greatest affairs, and with the greatest personages where they come: yea, they delight so much in the active life, that their young men are no sooner out of their noviceship or course in learning, but if there be aught in them, they begin to tamper and to become politic, and must be thought sufficient to manage any business. I remember I have read in an Italian history, written by a gentleman of Genua, touching the late king of Portugal Sebastian, and the competitors to that crown after his death: how the jesuits greatly favoured by that king, disturbed not a little the peace of that kingdom by their tampering in the prince's affairs: where the author noteth, how with great indiscretion, as upon a head and suddenly, they would have reform the corrupt manners of the country. Again, how by the Cardinal's means they procured the displacing of some ancient officers about the king, and brought in such as depended on themselves, to no small discontentment of many. And lastly, how especially upon the jesuits motion and persuasion, the king entertained the African affairs, and resolved to undertake that fatal voyage, from which yet they could not afterwards dissuade him, when it was misliked and thought dangerous by all his friends, 
This History is now in English: See page 9 10. 11. etc.  because they had set him too far in liking therewith before. But at the last, they wrought themselves out of favour with the king as he saith, for they would overrule all.  Gent. 
I would see that history.  Pr. 
I think you may have it in England, it is in Octavo, and printed in Italy, as I remember.  Gent. 
By likelihood than this busy intermeddling of theirs in Universities, in kingdoms, in the charges of Bishops and Pastors, etc. is the chief cause why they work these troubles every where.  Pr. 
Verily I think it be. For among them he is most esteemed, that can show himself most politic, most stirring, and undertaking, especially with greatest estates and highest matters.  Gent. 
These humours are not in them all. For I know divers of them very good, simple, and virtuous men, which trouble their heads with nothing, except their study and devotion.  Pr. 
There be some of them no doubt such as you say, continuing in the simplicity and good zeal, wherewith they first entered, and increasing their spiritual graces. These, though they must soothe the humours of the rest, and in all things defend their actions, yet delight not to be busy and stickling in others men's affairs: and indeed these be the glory of their society, and deserve love and honour above the rest. But there be few of this sort, considering it is a credit among themselves to be active and politic, and no small contention who may be thought most to excel in these.  Gent. 
Yet many good men think much, and marvel what should be the cause why you secular priests should be adversaries to the jesuits, & have contentions with them, and especially with Fa. Parsons, who is most esteemed of among the jesuits for his wisdom and other good parts; and who also hath wrought great good to our Nation, by his book of Resolution, which argueth him to be a virtuous man: and by erecting seminaries for the education of our young men. And generally the jesuits seek not their own temporal benefit, but bestow themselves only for the good of others: & many say, that without them our Church had been in worse case than it is. Again, that it is but a slander, that they intermeddle in the mattets of you secular priests, or that they have any dealings in the affairs of temporal estates. It is no just cause given you by them, but your own unmortified passions, and disobedient minds to your lawful superiors, which make you to repine and mammer, and to exclaim against them.  Priest. 
For the jesuits in general, I never said nor thought other, but that if they keep themselves only at these good exercises of preaching, of ministering sacraments, without prejudice to the ordinary Pastors, of catechizing, of teaching in schools, of visiting the sick; and living as brethren and fellow labourers in God's work, seek the estimation of the secular clergy among their people: I never thought (I say) but that they be very profitable coadjutors in Christ's church, and deserve love and reverence of all sorts. But if withal they become officious sticklers in princes affairs, Ecclesiastical or temporal, or busy themselves with intermeddling in the secular Clergies matters, which belong not to them, and seek to advance themselves in credit, and otherwise above the priests, as in England they have done; I then think them very dangerous and noisome members in any church, for the subversion of peace and good order; because upon that disposition forthwith they bring in great divisions, and draw both priests and people into lamentable factions, as is manifest in this poor realm. At Wisbich you have heard how they made very scandalous contentions about establishing a superiority in one of theirs, above all the other prisoners. You have heard also how they hindered the union of secular priests in a confraternity: how they withstood our endeavours touching Bishops or Suffragans: how without our consents or privity they procured an Archpriest to be ordained over all English priests in England and Scotland: they only appointing what kind of superiority and government our Church should have, and choosing the man which should be superior: notably abusing his Hol. and our whole Clergy in that action, and very cunningly hereby preventing, that no superior should be over them within the realm. Who but they enforced the same authority, which themselves only had devised, and fraudulently obtained? Who enforced it upon our Clergy with violence and threats but they, and this before it was confirmed by his Holiness? Who wrongfully defamed the priests, that bore off to receive it before the confirmation came, to be schismatics, rebels, etc. but the jesuits and others by their setting on? Who, after all was pacified, renewed the same slander and infamy against the priests, that for charity sake had forgiven it, but the jesuits in England and at Rome, and the Archp. by their advise? Who have continued the strife, by refusing all conferences, friendly debatings, disputes, meetings, and so many most reasonable offers, and indifferent conditions of peace, and ending all, as we have made? And who sought to overbear us all by strong hand, without respect of equity and conscience, but the jesuits, and the Archpriest directed by them? Who have most uncharitably injuried our priests by suspensions, by deprivation of faculties, by in just decrees, by hereaving them of their maintenance, of their friends, and places of entertainment and harbour, and all this without trial or proof of any crime at all, or admitting them to answer, or citing them to appear, but jesuits, abusing the Archp. his authority? For by his instructions (as I have said before) he is to do nothing without the jesuits advise and direction in any matter of importance: the good men providing, that not only they should be exempted from all subjection and subordination to him and his authority; but also, that themselves should bear the greatest stroke in the execution thereof. What belonged all these matters to them, if they had been content to stand within their own bounds? They are religious men, by their particular society and profession, separated from the secular clergy, and making a distinct body of themselves. By the rule of their order, not to take rooms of prelacy among the Clergy of the secular rank. What then did it appertain to them, to choose the manner of our government, or to appoint who should be superior to us? It cannot doubtless be defended from a malapert and presumptuous attempt, which is an inseparable propriety of their busy intermeddling humour.  Gent. 
They were priests, labouring in this harvest with you: and seeing this authority needful, they might procure it without blame.  Pr. 
They are priests indeed, but they be exceeding cunning pollitickes withal. It was not the good nor peace of our church they aimed at, in procuring this authority: (For then they would have wrought with our consent and liking, and the matter should not have been shuffled up in darkness as it was) but that by this mean they might domineer over us, and themselves be freed from all subjection of our prelate's. They are priests and our fellow labourers, so be we to them also; this required at the most, that we might admit them to join with us in advise about these elections, as we did in all things; but it could never privilege them to enterprise and contrive these matters against our wills, or without our consents and privity; a great many of us having laboured in the harvest as much as they, others having toiled far above them, and as it were the whole burden and weight of the work lying upon our shoulders, and not upon theirs, especially where painful travail and poverty is to be sustained. They would scorn no doubt, yea, exceedingly disdain, and bestir themselves, if we priests, their fellows in this work, should presume to overreach as they have done, and put our sickle into their harvest, to appoint without their consents or knowledge, what government and superior they should have: and yet we with as much reason might do this, as they have done the other. Thus you see there is overmuch cause given us by them, of grief and discontentment. Moreover, in this point they showed another policy.  Gent. 
What is that?  Pr. 
Marry, there be often in our Church, large sums of money given in alms, ad pios usus, we know they are granted and bequeathed, but few are better for them: they pass God knoweth whither, but they are invisible to poor Priests, and prisoners.  Gent. 
Perhaps they come not to the jesuits hands.  Priest. 
I wish they did not, more than their equal share. But it is noted that either all or the most great sums, come to the fingering of certain lay men, most entirely devoted, and familiar with the jesuits; the disposition of which men is thought to be sincere and just, and not willing to disperse the alms but as the jesuits shall appoint or approve. We know the jesuits to abound in all things; the Priests and poor Catholics in many places, and the prisoners generally to suffer penury more than ever they did. Now, if we had in our Church Bishops or Suffragans, chosen by the free voices of our Clergy, can you think these sums should be permitted thus unprofitably to vanish away? or that the exceutors should not be brought to their accounts? or that the jesuits should have all the stroke in the distributions? or that their shares should exceed the poor men's in so great inequality as a pound is to a penny? There was never greater alms given, than hath been within these four or five years, in which the jesuits have borne the greatest sway: and yet there hath never been the like wants among poor Catholic priests, and amongst poor Catholics in prison and abroad, and in the seminary at Douai as hath been in these years, and still remaineth. It is wonderful to consider which way it goeth. The jesuits indeed abound in all things, but I will not charge them with bad dealing: let the supposition plead thus, or so, as men conceive of it.  Gent. 
I will not condemn them neither. But yet I have heard of one jesuit that hath worn a girdle with hangers and rapier above ten pound, a jerken also that cost no less, and also that had made him two suits of apparel in one year, and all very costly; & whose horse & furniture, & his own apparel on him was valued to an hundred pounds: one who for his part by the report of his brother, dispendeth yearly 400 li: & yet hath no patrimony. If some few more of them be as wasteful as this one, no marvel if great sums make little relief among the poor.  Pr. 
In this point therefore they dealt politicly, when they hindered us of ordinary pastors and prelates, that in all things themselves might run without check or controller. Thus they seek to benefit others and not their own.  Gent. 
Yea, but M. Blackwell the Archp. writ to Cardinal Caietane, That the jesuits sell their patrimonies, to maintain themselves and others.  Priest. 
This is a mere fiction, to set out the jesuits with a vain glorious commendation: For it is well known that the most of them are poor men's children, and never had patrimony able to maintain themselves, much less able to relieve the necessities of others.  Gent. 
I ever thought it to be a fiction.  Pr. 
Let this pass, and consider by the premises whether we have not good cause to exclaim against the jesuits As for their report of our disobedience, it is reproved before: and for our unmortified passions, I will not much stand with them, but think that neither ours nor theirs, are not so mortified I as could wish. Now by this which we have already said, it is apparent enough, that they have but overmuch dealing in the affairs of our secular Clergy: and for their intermeddling in state matters, it is needless that any accuse them, or go about to prove it, seeing their own public actions give assured testimony against them. If they would deny it, Fa. P. own handy work is extant; the book of succession, wherein under the counterfeit name of Robert Doleman, he rippeth up the titles of all competitors to the crown of England, disgraceth and weakeneth in what he may the claims of some, extolleth and highly advanceth others, renewing the mortal dissensions between the families of York and Lancaster, laying perilous grounds for most cruel works and bloodshed in time to come, and drawing all to some particular person whom he affecteth above the rest. We will not speak of his bitter and disgraceful libels against the deceased L. Treasurer, and L. of Leicester: nor of his letters, and Fa. Creswels', intercepted as they were sent into the realm, and yet in the Counsels hands for a testimony against him, touching invasions and soliciting of men by these vain hopes to be in a readiness against his day, and I know not what dangerous follies beside. But touch in few words some of his other actions, that you may see whether he deal in state matters, or no. Did he not earnestly move our young students in Spain to set their hands to a schedule, that they would accept the Lady Infanta for Queen of England, after the decease of her Majesty that now is: yea, and finding them altogether unwilling to intermeddle with those greatest affairs, belonging nothing unto them, and most hurtful to both their cause and persons; used he not this cunning shift to draw on the innocent and simple youths, to pretend forsooth to them of Valladolid, that the students in Seville had done it already; no remedy then but they must follow: and having thus craftily gotten their names, he showed them to the students of Seville, for an example of their fact and forwardness, which he required them to imitate, that would be well taken, that they all did thus show themselves desirous of the L. Infanta for their Queen. Some more stout and better experienced than the rest, withstood the dangerous attempts, and would not yield: but they felt Fa. P. heavy hand upon them ever after. Was it not his usual persuasion to our students, when he would have them to concur with him in matters of state, That by the laws of England they were already traitors for their religion; then for tampering with him about any other the greatest affairs, they could be no more. Go to then, being once over shoes, be over boots also, step in as far as you can, and spare not. When he had printed his book of Succession, and was come to Rome, would he not have it publicly read in the refectory, at such times as the student's minds customarily were fed with spiritual lectures? Which vainglorious and profane desire, when some of the scholars resisted, because they thought it very inconvenient and hurtful unto them, to be acquainted with his plots in princes titles and affairs: the good Fa. was exceeding wroth with them, and they could never after have his favourable countenance. Was it not Fa. Pa. and Fa. Creighton, jesuits, that with such vehemency & bitterness contended each against other in Spain about disposing of the kingdom and crown of England, Fa. Par. striving to bring all to the Lady Infanta, and Fa. Creighton to his king of Scotland? in which controversy Fa. Parsons prevailed in that place, and frustrated and defeated all the desires & plots which his brother jesuit had laid in his suits. Were they not jesuits which laid the plot with the late deceased duke of Parma, for surprising or stealing away the Lady Arbella, and sending her into Flaunders? Who employed the messenger into England about that affair, but Fa. Holt jesuit? Who but the same jesuit was consenting with Sir William Stanley to the sending in of Richard Hesket, for soliciting Ferdinando, the late Earl of Derby, to rise against her Majesty, and to claim the crown? Was it not the same jesuit that entertained York and Young in the plot of firing her Majesty's storehouses? That set on work M. Francis Dickonson and others, to persuade watermen to fly with ships and all, into the service of the Spaniard? Who but jesuits feed the world daily with fresh news, & expectation of wars & alteration of the State by foreigners? But what, is this peculiar only to our English jesuits, or have not the Scottish fathers also in like manner bestirred themselves in that kingdom? Whereupon were the three Catholic Earls, Anguis, Arroll, and Huntley, convicted of high treason by act of Parliament, about eight years ago, to the confiscation of their livelihoods, and their expulsion out of the kingdom, if not upon certain plots laid them by father Creighton, father Gordon, and upon hopes given them of succours from Spain? Why was the lard of Fentry executed, but by reason of the same designs imparted to him by Fa. R●. Abercromie, a jesuit? was it not the principal cause of father jam. Gordions' travail to Rome about eight years ago to solicit the Pope, and other princes, to assist the king of Scots, if he would enterprise any thing either against England, or in his own country? in which simple and indiscreet action of his, he both deceived the Pope, pretending great matters to be in hand which were not, & was the quite overthrower of those three earls, in their present estates. These politic courses, and this busy and dangerous intermeddling by the Scottish jesuits in Scotland, grew odious even to the best there, and ruinated thereby the good estates of many, without hope of reaping benefit in any time to come. And yet forsooth the jesuits are falsely slandered, when they are said to deal in state matters. I know there be some of them which mislike these courses, and either through their own virtuous disposition, or for respect of their own quiet, safety, or disability, or finally for their study or a religious life, shun in what they can all this kind of profane intermeddling: yet the virtuous and temperate demeanour of these, can no more justify nor excuse the dangerous stickling of their fellows, than the presumptions of these busy heads can blemish or deface their virtuous and religious carriage. Neither have I rehearsed thus much for any other end than to let you know how that the report is to be verified of them, and not of us secular priests: and how under the profession of jesuits, all be not mortified, but some have very politic and stirring heads, yea in the weightiest matters that are. And for Father Parsons, that he more beats his brains about state matters than about the exercise of a religious life, it is evident by this one thing I will now tell you, besides all I have said before or may justly be said of him. While he was in Spain, you see how he tossed over the Titles and Claims to the crown of England; but besides this, he wrote two books of the Reformation of all the states of England. There the devout jesuit setteth upon the Court. To rule in it he maketh orders for reformation of the prince and courtiers, and appointeth what they shall observe in their government and living. The court of Parliament he will have brought to better form. Then prescribeth he reformations to the Bishops, prelates, and pastors: they must away with pomp and superfluities, and be put to their pensions: there he setteth down observances to all the secular states, and taketh upon him to reform the Counsellors, Noblemen, the gentry, Yeomanrie and all. Then he censureth the Law, and appointeth what reformations are to be made in it, and in the Lawyers. He cometh to the Universities and Colleges, and in them he will have strange Metamorphoses. He dealeth with Cities also and Corporations, Towns, Villages, Artisans escape not the Censurers rod. No religious orders must be admitted within the realm, except jesuits and reclused Carthusians. No Abbey lands must be restored, except that of S. Ihones for erecting Colleges and houses for the jesuits. This and much more stir he maketh, as divers have told me, tampering in all estates; and yet Fa. Par. and jesuits intermeddle not with profane matters of estate.  Gent. 
Surely, the Father hath a great conceit of his own wit, that he can rule a kingdom.  Priest. 
Doubt you not of that; and this conceit of his was much increased, when he saw the Spaniards so to approve and commend his plot: and the Lady Infanta promised him, that these books of Reformation should be put in execution, when she should be Queen of England.  Gent. 
Have you these books?  Priest. 
No. They be in England, but imparted to none, except the jesuits trusty friends; by whom, the hearts of other men are disposed against the day to come.  Gent. 
I perceive that jesuits are the only statesmen of Christendom.  Priest. 
They delight to be tampering; but ever they do rather harm than good thereby. As is manifest in Portugal, in England, and in Scotland: in which country of Scotland truly I have heard, that a Catholic Earl hath many times bewailed the state and misfortune of their people above ours of England: in that the jesuits, Fa. Hawood, Fa. Creighton, Fa. Gordian, Father Abercomie, which came first among them, endeavoured not so much to plant Catholic religion, nor to bring their people to the sincere and devout profession thereof; as they plotted about state matters, how to disquiet and subvert the temporal government. Whereas contrariwise, your English priests (said he) brought in religion, and respected only to draw the people to unity of the Catholic Church, and to virtuous life: whereby you have religion and the sincere practice thereof, and our heads are still troubled with state matters, and we know not what religion meaneth.  Gent. 
What? did those grave jesuits carry themselves no better in their entrance into Scotland?  Pr. 
That good Earl reported so: And surely it was much-what as he said. For the good charitable Fathers so greatly respected the temporal states of their countrymen, that they took a sure course for their safeties, for as much as concerned religion.  Gent. 
What mean you by this?  Pr. 
No more, but that they took order and provided, that no Catholic should be damnified in their temporal estates, for cause of their religion.  Gent. 
How could they do this; unless there be not such strict laws against Catholics in Scotland, as we in England have?  Priest. 
They have as sharp laws in this point as we; but thus the wise jesuits prevented all dangers: They freely permitted Catholics to go to church with protestants, and made no sin nor scruple of this as we do. And thus no law could take hold on them, for who could be known to be a Catholic?  Gent. 
Did they grant this liberty to all?  Pr. 
In this sort they did it: If one were a notorious known Catholic where he came, than they taught it to be unlawful in that place to go to church, by reason of scandal, and no otherwise. But if one were not certainly known to be such a Catholic, he might go without offence; upon condition, that if he heard any heretical doctrine preached, which moved him to doubt in any point of faith, he should presently come to some of those Fathers to be resolved.  Gent. 
This was pretty juggling, and they were like to have good Catholics by this means.  Priest. 
This in truth they did: and their Catholics were as good for this point, as they desire to have them. For it was an intolerable misery to see houses overthrown, and men to lose their lands and goods for a precise course, when so small a matter as this would save all.  Gent. 
Save all? All had better have been lost, than saved in this sort. But did they all agree in this course?  Priest. 
All these ancient and wife Fathers agreed upon it, and practised as I have told you. Two puny jesuits, to wit, Fa. Holt at the beginning, and Father Oglebie since, ever misliked, and in what they durst gainestood them in this opinion and practice. But these two being young men, subject to the old, their opposition was rejected, and they put to silence.  Gent. 
I wonder, those men being accounted grave, virtuous, and learned, would take this course to reclaim their country from heresy and schism. They seemed to make no other reckoning of going to church with protestants, than that it was only scandalous and dangerous for infection: which two sins might in some sort have been prevented or hindered by the means you say they took. But did they never know nor call to mind, that it was sin of it own nature, as being a manifest external profession of a false religion, as we account it?  Pr. 
They could not but know it; if the overmuch desire to save the temporal estates of their Catholics, did not blind their understanding, or make them to neglect the due examination of the case; which latter, I cannot think of them, because Father Holt and Fa. Oglebie in open words and disputes condemned the fact.  Gent. 
But our English jesuits ever practised and taught the contrary to those Scottish jesuits.  Pr. 
They have done so, for any thing that ever I heard to the contrary, except once, that Fa. Bosgrave went to church, and Fa. Thomas Langdale, and as some say, Fa. Kirkham, which fell farther than to go to church with protestants. The English jesuits found our secular priests to have rightly instructed and reform our church in this point, and to have established both the doctrine and the practice before their entrance; and therefore they could not without great confusion and discredit run any other course than that wherein they saw our priests to have led them the way. Marry, what they would have done in this case, if they had first set upon the work, and begun in England a form and practise of religion before secular priests, as their brethren jesuits did in Scotland; this I cannot certainly divine: but I doubt me greatly, both by the proceed of those ancient and learned Scottish jesuits, and by the pleasing humour of their fellows here, they would not have been so strict in the matter, as both they and we be now, refusing with so great detriment of goods, lands, liberty, and lives, the least participation or resemblance of communion with protestants, in all points, practice, and profession of religion. For I know a famous jesuit now in England, who, I hear hath made offer of a scandalous, and in my conceit a very unlawful liberty: If that a Gentleman will become Catholic, he should have licence to eat flesh in Lent, and in all fasting days, among Lollards and Protestants; that by so doing, he might live without suspicion of being a Catholic, and escape danger of the laws.  Gent. 
This were a pretty licence, and not much unlike to that you rehearsed of theirs in Scotland. And if this were permitted, we should have soon a fine piece of juggling in the exercise of our religion. In my opinion, the Catholic that should eat flesh upon fasting days with protestants, thereby to induce them to think him no Catholic, but agreeing with them in that point of religious observancy, should commit a grievous mortal sin, by intending to seem no Catholic, but a Lollard, or protestant. And this, albeit he had another principal end of his action, as to keep himself thereby from deciphering what he were, and from many temporal losses: For this seemeth to be an ill mean to those lawful ends, and (as you said before) we must not do ill that good may come upon it. Besides, in this case me thinks a Catholic man should be bound to profess his faith and religion, by abstinence from flesh among those protestants, they breaking the fast in contempt of Christ's religion and church. In which end or action, a Catholic should not any way participate with them, neither formally nor materially, when it cannot be done without prejudice to the faith, nor without scandal, as here it hardly can: especially the protestants own law commanding the due observance of such fasts. And truly, admit in this case a Catholic man were not bound to profess his religion by abstinence, especially, if there by some great loss or harm should certainly befall him: yet I perceive no reason, why he may by any act of his, bearing a show to be opposite to his religion and the precept of God's church, make any external resemblance of an heretical profession, as he doth by eating with them.  Pr. 
These reasons of yours have perhaps better grounds to uphold them, than the jesuits liberty hath: and without peradventure it is the surer way for any Catholic to take. It is the opinion of all the learned, that no man ought to do any thing, either scandalous or prejudicial to the faith of the church, for to save himself thereby from a temporal harm. Now this eating of flesh, being always (morally speaking) scandalous and prejudicial to Catholic religion in our country: it cannot be justified by this circumstance or end, to wit, that thereby a Catholic shall not be noted to be a Catholic. For if a Catholic should eat to be thought a protestant, his eating were damnable; seeing that to be noted to be a Catholic, is in itself no temporal harm to any: and the temporal detriments and losses which may ensue to any by this discovery or note, may be either prevented before they fall, or they be no more but ordinary in these times of persecution, and aught to be borne of every Catholic with patience, rather than to be shunned with scandal, or the least dishonour to God and his Church that may be devised. And in these matters of action, and in the exercise of religious obseruandes, it is not fit to take or teach a fashion, lying so near to dangerous sin (if it be not sin of itself) as doth this eating of flesh with protestants.  Gent. 
I think no less. I have also heard, that the jesuits have granted some extraordinary liberties lately, about conferences had by Catholic prisoners with Protestants, for procuring their liberty thereby: also about licensing or holding opinion, That a Catholic may lawfully marry with an Heretic.  Pr. 
I have heard no certainty of this matter. But let these be as they shall, our English Church is happy by the course of our secular priests, and theirs of Scotland is in bad terms, by the courses of the jesuits. Now, where you said, That our Church would not have been in so good case as it is, but for the jesuits: I am not to judge hereof. For on the one side, no doubt but they have done good; because it is not to be thought, that so many of them as are in the realm, have been idle and fruitless, but have helped forward God's work; though not to be compared with the secular priests in this point: no, not setting man for man. For the great toil and burden of the work hath ever lain upon secular priests; and those chiefly which laboured among the poor, not able to relieve them with meat or money, or any other ordinary supply of necessary apparel or convenient lodging, some of them suffering more misery in one quarter of a year for gaining poor souls, than all the jesuits in England do in a whole year; who commonly keep richest houses, and sustain no want of things necessary or convenient. And on the other side, they have caused by their cunning plots and busy tampering, so great division among the priests themselves, and raised so horrible dissension and dislike of both priests and people, one with another; which was never heard of in our nation, before they began their politic stir and broking of factions; and finally, so grievously diminished the credit, estimation, and reverence of priests, due unto them from the laity, yea, brought them into contempt, that I fear me much all the good they have done by their spiritual labours, will not countervail the harms they have wrought by these politic and strange endeavours of theirs. For it was better without comparison to have our Church, Priests, and People united together in great love and reverence, both sincere, simple, devout, and in peace, as it was before many of the jesuits entered; than to have among us emulations, contentions, policies, contempt of priests, falsehoods in fellowship, a distrust or a fear each of other, slanders, infamies, and a general decay of virtue and devotion, as now the matter is brought unto, and had never been likely to have entered, if they had not come amongst us. And sure I am, that the chief noursey of our church, that is, the Seminary of Douai, is exceedingly decayed, since the jesuits had the managing of things, especially of the alms purse in England. And for the Seminary also in Rome, no man can reprove us of an untruth, if we say that it in like sort hath suffered no small detriment, since the death of Cardinal Allen.  Gent. 
But these losses are recompensed abundantly by the erection of new Colleges in Spain by Father Parsons.  Priest. 
It is a vain glorious boast, and a fiction. The loss received in those two Seminaries, is not recompensed in half by all that Fa. Parsons hath done, as by and by I shall declare. Touching that part of their report, where it is marveled why we should be adversaries to the jesuits, I have answered it sufficiently before. Now it remaineth that we speak of Fa. Parsons, What say you of him?  Gent. 
Marry, many think it strange you should be at dissension with him, he being a man so well thought of and esteemed both in his own order and by the most that know him: his book of Resolution argueth him to be a holy man, and his endeavours in erecting Seminaries for our country, showeth, that he is both a good man, and most careful for the good of our country, and to be far from doing any of you wrong in the least thing that may be, etc.  Pr. 
If Fa. Parsons have deeply wronged us, men need not to wonder, that there should be contentions between him and us. It is no whit likely that we should stomach the man, or contend with him, unless he had given us cause. We will therefore discuss this point, and touch all the rest which you have mentioned for his commendation: but let us take them in order as you spoke them. For the credit and estimation he hath among men of his own order; it is with some of them good, and with others very mean; and they all generally repute him to be very politic, and of a busy and stirring disposition, more desirous in all things to draw all men to his own will, yea, and violently to enforce thereto such as be weaker, than he is to follow any other man's advise or course. I know some jesuits his seniors in religion, men of better talon than he, who looking into his peremptory and heady courses, have often censured thus upon him: That he was too contentious and wilful, and that it were better for their religion, and the world also, that he were shut up for ever in some religious house, than to be stickling abroad, and tampering in all matters as he doth, which must of necessity in the end turn to the harm of many, and to the discredit of their society, after his devices come to light. Also I have credibly heard, that others should often complain and say of him, That their society was more troubled and disquieted, yea, and discredited, by the devices and importunity of one Englishman, Father Parsons, than by all the men of other countries beside: for he never ceaseth wrangling and contending with one or other, and with many at once. I have myself heard a Scottish jesuit (far his ancient in the society, & of a good account) to inveigh greatly against Father Parson's violent nature and courses, and to condemn his politic and cunning intermeddling in all matters, to the hurt of many, and to the discredit of their order. Father Holts and Fa. Hawoods' opinion of him was (these jesuits I name, because they be dead) that he was of a violent and imperious disposition in most things, and with the most men he dealt with; never quiet, unless he overruled all; exquisite cunning, with flattery and fawning to bring others to his bend, and if this would not win them, then to be most fierce and violent, utterly to break them that should stand in his way. The religious Fa. hath found many occasions, and devised many shifts these twenty years and more, that he might live abroad out of his order, and be employed to solicit affairs in princes courts, or to have rule and command in Colleges. And the conceit he carrieth of his own wit and sufficiency, maketh him to attempt any thing, and ever to be unwilling to condescend to any man's advise but his own. The men of his own society also note this in him, That he hath a special regard to have the whole managing of English affairs, and that no other of his brethren, how ancient, wise, or learned soever, shall communicate with him in these matters, or have any dealing, unless they yield themselves in every point to follow his directions and courses, and be wholly at his commandment. And they say this only to be the cause why he hath hindered all the gravest and most sufficient English jesuits beyond the seas to come into the realm, or to intermeddle in the wielding of our Church's affairs; lest (forsooth) they should refuse to follow his devices, and by a more discreet and temperate course, both win from him the credit, and bear away the principal stroke and command. Thus much for the estimation he hath among many good men of his own society.  Gent. 
There be very many yet which think well of him.  Priest. 
No doubt but divers think better of him than he deserveth, or than they would do when they shall come to understand his uncharitable devices, and what discredit he hath brought both upon our English church, and upon his own society, by his cunning and intemperate dealing. In the mean while they will like him well, as long as he standeth them in stead, either in England, Spain, or elsewhere.  Gent. 
He is much esteemed in Spain, and in Rome by all the Spanish favourites.  Pr. 
He is so, and no marvel it is. For what prince would not much esteem a man that can entitle him and his to the kingdom of England, raise up a broken claim from before two hundred years, and so handle the matter with a cunning flourish, that it must be made to seem the best and likeliest of all that have been since. For not only he advanceth the surmised Spanish Title, but disgraceth in what he may, and weakeneth all the rest. This his plotting about the crown and kingdom of England, and sharing it to the Lady Infanta, with devising probable means (as he persuadeth them) to effect his plot, made him very famous and highly esteemed in that nation, and won to him such singular grace of the old King, the Lady Infanta, and all their friends, that his word might do much in any matter, either to pleasure his friend or displeasure his adversary. Hence also doth proceed the favour and credit he hath with the Ambassador of Spain, and all them of the Spanish faction in Rome: the hope wherewith he daily feedeth them of bringing this to pass by his own policies, and the helps he can procure in England, causeth them to admire the man, and him to be most highly esteemed among them.  Gent. 
It is very ridiculous, if they should be so simple, as to think Fa. Parson to be able when the day cometh, to set the crown of England upon whose head it pleaseth him, or that he should have so strong a party in England, as are of power to bear the best game away, and dispose thereof at his pleasure.  Priest. 
They never heard that he was son to a blacke-smiths wife, but take him perhaps to be some nobleman, and allied with many great ones. And indeed for his imperious carriage, he may easily seem to strangers to be better descended than in truth he is. For he is exceeding bold, of great undertaking, and can set out all he hath to the best show. Besides, a kingdom is an object of that alluring quality, as the very simple-wishing of a man thereto, procureth liking, and favours, much more the entiteling a prince thereto, and devising means to compass the same.  Gent. 
It is so, but Fa. Parsons is much esteemed of by most Catholics in England: yea, and of many Protestants also, by reason of his book of Resolution, and the Seminaries he hath procured for our Nation.  Pr. 
As this book of Resolution was a good work, and won him all the credit which was due to Granado, that laid the platform to Father Parson's hand, and gave him the principal grounds and matter thereof, and which also was deserved by master Brinckley for the penning (as divers report:) so no doubt the libel he writ against the Earl of Leicester, and the other against the old L. Treasurer, and this work of Succession, whereby he entitleth the Lady Infanta to the crown of England, with disgracing all other Titles and Competitors, hath got him much hatred and discredit in England and Scotland. If the book were his, it was well done, and he deserved commendation for it; and surely, if he had gone forward with the other two parts (as he promised) he had spent these twenty years and more, both more to God's honour and the good of his country, and to his own greater merit, than he hath done by all his other politic stickling in matters of State, or by his cunning, his violent, his contentious, and his unconscionable proceed otherwise. But his head was too busy, and overmuch profaned; and greatly it is to be feared, (his dealing considered in Spain and in Rome also, against our students, and the two good priests we sent thither about this authority: again, his deceiving the Pope by false information, both in procuring the authority, & by incensing him against the priests) that when he finished that book of Resolution, he made an end also therewith of devotion, sincerity, and honest dealing. It is no certain nor probable argument to prove a man to be a Saint, or a virtuous and a good man, because in times past he hath written a virtuous book; yea, or because he writeth one in the present. For this ability consisteth principally in the power of a man's understanding: whereas virtue and goodness, as well supernatural as natural, resteth in the will, and affecteth the operations thereof. Lucifer that damned fiend was a Cherubin of highest intelligence, he and his wicked angels exceed all men in wit and knowledge, and want no skill to contrive and make spiritual books of absolute perfection: yet this great knowledge of theirs neithet maketh them good, nor can argue them to be virtuous spirits, as long as their will is perverted. The like we may say of Adam, that neither his great graces wherein he was created, nor his supernatural gifts, which remain after his fall, (in both which states he had sufficient skill to deliver to the world as good doctrine, as Fa. Parson hath done) could prove him to be a good man, when he had cast himself out of the state of grace, into sin: and the fame is true also in every learned man, being in mortal sin; and in Fa. Parson himself, if at any time since he hath been in that damnable state: by their sin they are deprived of justifying grace, and other supernatural virtues depending thereupon; but their faith, their hope, and knowledge gotten before their fall, remaineth still; by which they may teach and write as perfect doctrine as before they could. Yea, I have heard Doctor Stapleton report of certain books written upon the holy Scripture by john Caluin, that they contained excellent good moral doctrine; and if the heresies intermingled therewith, were canceled, that they might be read with great profit and pleasure; and yet no Catholic will deny, but that Caluine notwithstanding all this, was a great enemy to the Roman religion. Did not Solomon write many divine volumes, and yet afterwards he became a bad man? Now let Fa. Parson's book go with that deserved commendations: what he was, good or bad, whiles he writ it (for he might be either) I cannot judge, and I will suppose the best; but what he hath been since, his own bad actions yield presumptions over-pregnant and probable, that sometimes he hath been no Saint, nor sincere honest man.  Gent. 
In my conceit, it is a manifest sign of a defect in wisdom, judgement, and discretion, for any so worthily to value a man for one or many his good actions passed, that when after the same he doth evil, he will not believe, or see it; or else in manifest faults stand to justify and defend him, by reason he was once a good man, or had done well before. For men's judgements should be conformable to the object, or otherways they cannot be true: and in this, though the precedent good actions ought to stay a man from rash judgement, and to make every one suspend his censure until he be assured of the fact; yet when his evil doing is once apparent, a wise man should not let his affection carry him away to judge black to be white, or a man fallen to vice, to remain still a saint.  Priest. 
Well then, you see that Fa. Parson's book of Resolution made above twenty years ago, cannot justify, nor ought not to patronize his naughty actions committed since; no, nor in the judgement of any man, to prejudice our cause and us in these contentions we have with him.  Gent. 
In reason it should be so: but yet the Seminaries in Spain, & saint Omers, erected by his means, have gotten him much credit, & cause men to think him the bestfriend our Country hath.  Pr. 
If men would judicially consider what he hath done in this point, perhaps they would think worse of him and his actions than they do. For albeit there be now by his means more seminaries for our young students, than before; yet doubtless our Country reapeth much less benefit now by all, than it did of old, by the two only of Rome and Douai. So that in truth his endeavours in erecting new Colleges or Seminaries, have rather much diminished the commodity, and decayed the good of our Country, than increased it: and then consequently Fa. P. deserveth small thanks for his labour.  Gent. 
How can this be possible?  Priest. 
Thus: First, you will grant me, that it is the greater benefit and good of our Country, the more students we have brought up in the Seminaries, which become priests, and yield themselves to labour in our English harvest.  Gent. 
I cannot deny this, for the greatest increase of our Clergy, is our Countries greater good.  Pr. 
But before Fa. P. erected his, there were more good priests yearly sent from Rome, and Rheims or Douai, into England, than is or hath been yearly since from those two, and all the rest beside.  Gent. 
How happened this?  Pr. 
Marry, before Fa, Par. erected his, and before the jesuits had the greatest stroke in money matters in England, it is well known that in the College at Rheims, there were sometimes eight score, otherwhiles 200, or 220. of our Countrymen, old and young, students; now the number is diminished to 60. All that came were welcome, and friendly entertained, none rejected, brought they money, or brought they none: now can none be received without a gross sum of money, or else a yearly stipend, unless he be fit at the first to study Divinity; and either not at all, or very hardly can any be entertained, unless he be sent or commended by the jesuits, and Archp-riest: In those days sixteen priests or more were sent into England in one year, now three, or four be many: then the renowned fame, and glory of the College, drew unto it good scholars, and ancient men, from the Universities of Oxford, and Cambridge; but now it hath lost the ancient credit, and thought a meeter school for boys, than for men: then, it was a famous Nursery for the best Literature; now the science of scholastical Divinity, is not much respected, if it be not altogether laid aside. I let pass to speak what difference there is between those old, and these new governors.  Gent. 
This is a wonderful decay: of likelihood the ordinary stipends are withdrawn, which came yearly from Spain and Rome.  Priest. 
No, they are still allowed.  Gent. 
What then is the cause of this ruin?  Pr. 
No other, but the diverting away of the alms usually sent out of England to supply the necessities of that College: for receiving these, the house flourished, and could do much; and wanting them, all must of necessity decay.  Gent. 
Are the jesuits to blame for this?  Priest. 
Would to God they were not. But thus much is certain; larger alms were never given, than hath been these late years; again, it hath been observed, That the more the jesuits be in credit, and got into their hands the disposing of things, especially the almes-purse, the less relief hath been sent to that College out of England; yea, not an hundred marks in three or four years.  Gent. 
Which way think you these alms are implied?  Pr. 
I know not, but as I told you, the prisoners in England, the poor priests and Catholics never suffered such great want of relief, as they have done these late years; the jesuits indeed have abundance, but so great sums cannot be consumed upon themselves only, some other passage there is for it doubtless: we will not speak what many surmise and mutter secretly of buying annuities, of putting into bank beyond the seas, (for two thousand pound they say was intercepted this year going over, from whence or whether, it is not known to me, more than that generally it was reported to be sent by the jesuits) or of maintaining jesuits in other countries. Let these pass, and be they true or false, it is not to be thought other, but the Fathers here will have a special eye to the Colleges which themselves have been a mean to erect.  Gent. 
It is very well if it go to them.  Priest. 
It is better so than worse. But mark now what damage ensueth thereby to our Church. The College of S. Omers is only for children; none (except their parents be dear to the jesuits) can have place there, unless he bring with him forty pounds, or fifty pounds, or more, or have some good annuity to maintain him. Now the College of Douai or Rheims, entertained indifferently all that came, and upon the usual alms sent from England, maintained them, albeit they brought nothing: but if this College at S. Omers for children that come also well provided, intercept or receive the alms which were accustomed to be sent to Douai or Rheims, for the maintenance not of as many children only, but also of at the least four times as many priests as be there now, is it not manifest, that our country looseth far more at Douai, than it gaineth at S. Omers, by erecting of a College there?  Gent. 
It may be, that this notable defect is supplied by the two Colleges in Spain.  Priest. 
I perceive not that it is so. For both they return not into England yearly so many priests by far, as are wanting now in the number accustomed yearly to be sent from Rheims; and so the great damage remaineth still. When Doctor Barret, precedent of the College at Rheims, perceived this hurtful effect to befall our country, by Fa. Parson's diligence in erecting these new Colleges, he writ seriously to him about the matter, and assured him, That it was much better to maintain the College of Rheims, which was the beginner of all our country's happiness, next to God, and was the greatest glory and good of our Nation, than to build new ones to the decay of this: but Fa. Parsons (after his fashion, impatient of any admonition) took his advise in very ill part; and to correct the Precedents boldness, forslowed (as was thought) to procure the Spanish pension, till the College was almost undone, and dissolved.  Gent. 
This is a very great loss to our country, and yet noted by few or none.  Priest. 
Nay, the jesuits bear you in hand of inestimable benefits received by these new Colleges.  Gent. 
They do so indeed, but these benefits be only in conceit I see now.  Priest. 
You will see it better, if to this I have already told you, we add the multitude of our scholars, which are consumed by the distemperate air of Spain, and die there: for S. Omers is no more but to bring up children in humanity, and after to send them to Spain; which loss also had been prevented by the upholding of the College at Rheims or Douai, regions more agreeable with our English nature than Valle de Leith, or Civil. Again, if we consider another exceeding great loss of our countrymen governed by the jesuits, and which was ever avoided at Rheims & Douai, governed by our secular priests; we have good cause to think our country to gain nothing by these new Colleges for continully they entice and allure many of our finest wits, and most towardly youth from the ordinary vocation of our Clergy and of our secular Pastors, to be of their own society. Many also they make (for trifles) malcontents, by their politic dealing; they drive others from their natural simplicity, to become cunning headed; not a few they dismiss the finishing of their studies, upon light discontentments; many they quite break by indiscreet wrongs and incompassionate handling: and finally, those Colleges are the principal fountains of contentions and divisions among our Clergy; some in matters of strife banding with the jesuits, and some against them, as now you see in England; which breaches of peace and concord were never among the priests brought up at Rheims or Douai, before the jesuits and their disciples entered the realm, and made factions against such as had contended with them in their Colleges, or listed not to run their courses, and feed their humours in England. Now for the College in Rome, how they have used the matter, I know not; but every second or third year since it was founded, there have been monstrous contentions and tumults between the students and them, to the unspeakable damage of our Church. In times past, besides ten or twelve known jesuits, (for there was also many more secret brethren, running under the name of our students, as I said before) besides also twelve, or fourteen, or more servants, there was accustomed to be relieved above threescore and eight students; but now the number is brought to forty or thereabouts: their vineyard is sold and spent, and the students in no small discontentment, notwithstanding all the fair weather Fa. Parsons bloweth of their peace and happy estate. Thus you see what thanks Father Parsons deserveth by erecting seminaries for our Country.  Gent. 
I cannot but exceedingly wonder at these things, and me thinks the jesuits cannot but perceive these inconveniences to follow upon these endeavours of theirs, and take pity of the loss.  Priest. 
No, no, you are deceived, they more respect their own gain, than they feel our country's loss.  Gent. 
What gain they, but much toil and labour in this world? they look for their reward in the next life.  Pr. 
I nothing doubt but they look for both; and for aught I perceive, the temporal commodity greatly moveth them for the present, in the government of our Colleges.  Gent. 
What temporal gain is this?  Priest. 
Whereby they have the choice of all our youths, and are in very great possibility to draw into their society the flower of all our Catholic young men. For being Superiors, Masters, Confessors, Familiars, and Governors unto them, they have all desired opportunities to work their designs; which they should not have had, if our students were from under them, as at Rheims they were: this they think will be the greatest glory, credit, and advancement of their order above our Clergy in the English nation, if they can draw unto them our finest wits, and best descended. For at these two kinds they most aim and fish.  Gent. 
Yea, but if this be so, I perceive another benefit to redound unto them by their government of our Colleges. For by having the whole sway in all our Seminaries beyond the seas, as they have, (for they say that Douai also is wholly at Fa. Parson's devotion and direction in every thing, especially since he placed Doctor Worthington to be Precedent there, who is a man known to be the jesuits entirest dependent:) it must follow hereupon, that they should enforce all the Catholics in England to seek unto them to win their favours, to pretend at least to be their friends, to depend wholly upon them, and to run their courses; for otherwise their children shall be debarred of all benefit that may be had in those Seminaries. And thus our whole Church at home and abroad, must be drawn necessarily to rely on Father Parsons and the jesuits; feed their humours, and you shall have what they list to afford us; displease them, and nothing is to be had. But I pray you, are they diligent (as you said) in fishing for our chiefest youths? and again, so indiscreet in their government, as for toys to exasperate and discontent them?  Pr. 
For their earnest and diligent fishing, it is very true, they do it most carefully, and they use the exercise, as a chief mean to catch the scholars; besides mine own certain knowledge and experience of their great and daily industry in this point, I have known some of their own society much condemn them for it. Fa. Holt himself hath told me, that their society delighted much in this fishing; and to be most impatient of reproof or opposition therein: But of our English jesuits, especially Fa. Parsons and Fa. Creswell are most zealous in this point. This point is so tenderly respected by our order (said he) That whosoever dealeth to our contrary herein, is thought to tangere pupillam oculi nostri, these were his very words. We have certain men amongst us, which be noted for fishers, and are named, Piscatores Patris Generalis: these employ their wits and labours to draw unto us the best they find every where. Which thing (said he) I cannot much dislike, when they bring young men out of the world to resolve upon a religious course, which otherwise perhaps might have perished, or never applied themselves to virtuous life: but this diligence to be used in the Seminaries among our English students, whom we have undertaken to frame and make fit for our English harvest, which for this happy end are committed to our education, and which by singular grace and vocation, are already resolved to take an Apostolical kind of life peculiar only to our countrymen among all heretical nations; to use this importune fishing among them, was a thing that never liked me. He said moreover, That this fishing, with the partiality they used to them, (they either had catched, or desired to allure) was the principal root of discontentments and contentions between them and the jesuits in the Seminaries. Again, That himself being Rector of our College in Rome, was put from the office, because he would not be so forward in this fishing, as they would have had him.  Gent. 
Did Fa. Holt the jesuit reveal this secret unto you?  Pr. 
Yea truly, and much more to the same effect; and how the indiscreet zeal of some was such, that they would not stick to discontent and afflict for any trifle, the towardliest young men we had, if they perceived them not to fancy their baits. The good man himself stood indifferent, would entice none; yet entertain any, that moved by the spirit of God, came freely of themselves, towards which, he would yet use no partiality to draw them on by extraordinary favours (as the manner is) but in all things sought to mortify them above the rest: but complaint being made hereof, he was speedily thrust out of the government. It was thought by the students, an unseemly and disordered thing, That the jesuits being no priests, and some, lay brethren, should take place before our priests; but it was maintained by the jesuits as a point of good nurture, and due unto them; and they which seemed to dislike the disorder, were accounted and used as adversaries.  Gent. 
Me thinks the jesuits should give them rather examples of mortification and humility, than to contend about these vanities.  Pr. 
It should be so; but thus it was. Fa. Creswell, who was in Rome for many causes judged by Cardinal Allen to be the unfittest to govern that ever he had known, after many troublesome garboils he had made in the College, whilst he was Rector there, at last by Cardinal Allens means was removed from that government, and sent into Spain to Fa. Parsons. This stirring and busy-headed Father, during the time he was Rector in Rome, delighted in nothing so much, as to cross and over thwart the students in every thing. They 〈◊〉 their vineyard a pleasant little grove of trees, in which they much delighted to sit and to recreate themselves, when they were permitted to go thither, for it cast a goodly shade, and defended them from the piercing heats of the Sun this comfort Fa. Cr●swell he like thought not fit for banished scholars; for suddenly (without acquinting Cardinal Allen, or any therewith) he cut it down, and sold the wood, and not long after the vineyard also was alienated by sale, from the College. The fact mightily offended the good Cardinal, and the students; but therein the good jesuit took his joy. This man's humour in that government, being (as he thought) something restrained by the Cardinal's presence and authority, of that full scope he desired to have; he would in public exhortations show his discontentment, and vauntingly say (as a jesuit told it me) What? we respect not Cardinals in our dealing, we fear them not, we are rather to make Cardinals, than to be overruled by them. This same unfit Rector, by the judgement of Cardinal Allen coming into Spain, was by and by esteemed the fittest to govern that might be, by Fa. Parsons. There (as the priests which come from thence, report) he keepeth no less reveling among the students, than he had done at Rome. This is he that in open sermons exclaimeth against our secular clergy in England, saying, There be many gone out of the Seminaries into England, well qualified with learning and natural talents, but would to God we could sponge out of them, yea, suck out of them with a sponge their learning, and their natural good qualities; beside, they be contentious against us, and adversaries to our society.  Gent. 
These be monstrous speeches, and argue a very untemperate spirit.  Priest. 
Oh, it is a goodly zeal, the man is fervent, and (as I hear) according to his humour, they in Spain and Fa. Parsons in Rome have taken order, That few of our students, especially such as are thought not greatly to affect them and their proceed, shall be over-learned hereafter: For almost all are set to positive Divinity, and not suffered to be Philosophers, or scholastical Divines. And truly it seemeth incredible to hear, how many of our finest wits and young men of great expectation, these two violent Fathers (void as it seemeth of all compassion and humanity, against whom they carry displeasure) have discredited and quite broken. Some for no other faults, but for breaking their fast in a cook's house, when they had hard commons, and great scarcity of victuals in their College; as Fa. Parsons did a great company at Rome: others, for eating a little milk, which they bought as they walked in the fields: others for washing themselves in a river without the city, and the like, as Fa. Creswell did to some in Spain. Where some also were put to a penance of bread and water, be cause they would not ask penances: some for slipping with his tongue, and saying in stead of Patrem Ministrum, Patrem ministerium: some violently pulled by the ears for calling a lay jesuit Harmannon, that is, brother, in Spanish; where he would have been called Pater, Father; and a thousand such, which for brevities sake I now omit.  Gent. 
These religious men have much deceived me: For I thought they had been very mild, and kept great moderation in their government, specially towards our countrymen, which voluntarily have undertaken this hard course of life, for serving God and gaining of souls, without any hope of temporal benefit, but with assured miseries at their return home; as we see daily many of them to suffer tortures, imprisonments, and death, besides many other afflictions before they fall into the hands of their persecutors: in respect of which difficulties, reason would they should be courteously entertained during their time of studies, and much borne with, if they frame not themselves to the exact observance of some strict orders.  Pr. 
Our gracious Cardinal Allen was of your opinion in this point, and so sweetly demeaned himself in his government towards all, that he won the hearts of every one; he was full of pity and compassion, and in his great discretion could bear with the imperfections of young men. For he considered their hard estate of voluntary banishment, where they wanted almost all comforts & pleasures which their own country would have yielded them. And therefore by all gentle and friendly usage he endeavoured to encourage them, and yield them all contentment and consolations, which the place and his ability would permit; ever careful, that none should be discontented, or made malcontent for trilles and matters of small importance. And truly myself have heard him often say, That a good Governor, especially in these times with our countrymen should have a great regard to save all that come under him, and in no wise for some natural imperfections and transgressions of good orders, which may be tolerated without sin, to discourage any, nor for trifling and light faults to lose their other good talents.  Gent. 
This course is most agreeable without time and countrymen, which enter voluntarily into this hard state of life, and as voluntarily remain therein.  Priest. 
That blessed man thought so, and during his life, practised the same with all sorts: for he withstood Fa. Creswels and the jesuits attempts in the English College at Rome, when they endeavoured to bring upon the students certain hard orders, which were no whit necessary to the good education of the scholars, and yet could not but be exceeding disgustful, and grievous unto them, without any the least profit at all.  Gent. 
What orders were these?  Priest. 
The very same which were misliked and rejected also by Cardinal Toledo, when (after Cardinal Allens death) the jesuits attempted afresh to establish them: and indeed effected their desire after Cardinal Toledo was taken away. As, that no scholar shall write letters abroad, or receive any, without licence and the surview of the jesuits their governors: again, that none shall write to any of his fellows of the College, or receive letters from him, without the same licence and review. Item, That none shall come in company, converse, or recreate with any other of his fellow students, but with such only, as they shall be appointed unto. Item, That no two shall talk together, unless they either call a third person to hear them, that may witness what they speak, or else talk so loud that they may be heard of other. These and such like they have induced to the great discontentment and affliction of the students, which (as I said) Cardinal Toledo, after Cardinal Allen, rejected as very foolish, and unfit for our countrymen; & they seem devices, smelling rather to proceed from a barbarous, wili●, and tyrannical spirit of some Machavelian, than from a discreet, mild, and religious zeal. For (as Cardinal Toledo said) it were more necessary to find means to procure the greatest love and familiarity among the scholars that might be (they all going to fight against heretics in the same camp) than by such burdenous and unprofitable orders as these, to afflict them in their tyranny, and estrange them one from another.  Gent. 
This was wisely said of the old Cardinal Allen. But if it be true which I have heard, there is another thing practised by the jesuits in the government of our Colleges, of as great inconveniency as these. For I have been often told, how the jesuits have in every company of scholars their spies, which they call Angeli custodes, which alway lie in wait, what they can hear said or see done by any scholar, and forthwith carry it to the Superior: These spies by their indiscreet diligence in this office, and to pick thanks by their informations, usually cause great discontentments and unquietness in the Colleges, incensing the Superiors against the students for very toys, and making every hillock a mountain. And besides the other evils these favoured makebates do by their whispering tales, the very office itself considered in its own nature in a Community, breedeth much harm: for it causeth every one to distrust other, it is the bane of all mutual love and sincere friendship, and cannot but bring forth much emulation and dislike.  Pr. 
It must of necessity have these bad effects, but this policy pleaseth Fa. Parsons, Fa. Creswell, and other jesuits; for thus they shall be acquainted with all that is said or done, and more to. Thus they shall prevent all treasons and conspiracies intended by the students against their government, be it never so bad.  Gent. 
The jesuits and their favourites give out, That the students have been very disordered and dissolute, as going to eat and drink in the taverns, which could not be without the discredit both of themselves, and of the jesuits: some were taken by the officers in the manner, others confessed the same.  Priest. 
If the jesuits have thought themselves any way discredited by the scholars, they may be relieved when they please by giving over that government, which both the scholars and the wisest of our nation (that know the state of things) wish they would: but this they will not do, for losing the commodity they get by their fishings in that place. Now for the disposition of our countrymen which undertake that course of life, it is well known, that before they come under the jesuits government, they be generally of the most virtuous & towardliest youths our nation yieldeth; never noted for drunkards, or enormiously disordered and dissolute, especially in those vices, whereunto other countries wherein they live, are most subject. How this lamentable alteration of then natures should be made under these religious men, I cannot conjecture; but rather do I think it to be a false slander, raised by the jesuits for justifying their own discommendable actions, than to have any ground of truth in our countrymen, especially in any matter of importance. For as touching their going to the taverns or cook's house, though in Rome it may seem a great disorder, and perhaps give some little scandal; yet what scholar is there in England, or in most places of the Christian world, that can think it in own nature any enormous crime to break their fast in a coolees ●ouse, especially when the fact is lad, with these circumstances, as theirs was? First, that Father Parsons and the jesuits gave them very hard fare in the College, and such as would not suffice the natures of divers of them to preserve their health and life: again, that it was done very seldom, and but with two or three at once in a company; and this also in the secretest manner that might be: and lastly, with that moderation, that their appetites were not hindered from taking their ordinary refection in the College.  Gent. 
Cardinal Allen, though sometimes he would sweetly reprove this among his students, yet he never thought it any enormous crime or disorder, deserving infamy, or expulsion, or disgraces; considering they wanted that full diet in those countries, which they had been accustomed unto in England, and were growing young men, whose natures required more than ordinarily they were allowed in the Colleges▪ And surely, if Fa. Parsons and the jesuits had tendered the good and credit of our countrymen, as Christian charity, compassion, and friendship required, they would never have disgraced and discredited them for that fault before his Holinestly, the Cardinals; the whole city, and Christendom, as they did; nor have sent after them into England most infamous, libels, as we see they have done; not so much to the discredit of so many good priests, as to the scandal of all the nation.  Pr. 
There be many great presumptions of the jesuits uncharitable and bad dealing in that action. For the students were exceedingly pinched in their diet, some thought, upon purpose to cause them to seek for more abroad. Again, Fa. Parsons admitted a married Irishman into the College, and put him in the habit of a student; he could scarce say his Pater noster, yet that favour he found, for what purpose God knows. This married Irishman earnestly solicited now these, now others, of the students, to go with him to the cook's house to break their fasts. Some perceiving divers to be drawn by this man's enticement, and fearing the jesuits connivence and patience in the matter (for they could not but know its admit they set not the Irishman awork, as many greatly feared they did) would turn the students to some greater harm in the end; they themselves admonish Fa. Parsons and the rest, of the disorder, and desired them to be more careful, and to prevent the inconveniences which might ensue to the College thereby: yea, and further told them, that their negligence in the matter, yielded no small suspicion of some further advantage and drift they intended against the students. The good Fathers seemed not to believe, nor much to regard the thing. At the last, this Irishman with great importunity enticed one of the priests to go with him. This priest was a good virtuous man, of good example and edification to all the rest, and had been with his fellows opposite to the jesuits in all contentions with them: after the decease of Cardinal Allen, his innocency and virtuous behaviour bore him out, that the jesuits could have nothing to except against him in all those tumults. After he, the Irishman, and another priest, had celebrated abroad, in their return home they went to an English priests chamber in the city, called Master Midleton, who had had much bickering with Fa. Parsons both in Spain and Rome. In his chamber they intended to break their fast, but the Irishman would have them in any case to take it in the cook's house, which was at the next door, and at the last he prevailed: they had no sooner entered, and called for some meat, but before they had tasted, behold the Isbeces or soldiers come upon them, and apprehend them; a strange thing in that town, and the like not heard of before. Fa. Parsons was sent for, he seeming unacquainted with the stratagem, lamented their misfortune, and in the way of favour procured they should be imprisoned in the College. He shut up every one apart in close prison. The Irishman seeing his proceed, exclaimed against him, but he was charily kept and could never after be spoken with by the scholars, lest he should tell tales. Then began Fa. Parsons and the jesuits to bestir them, and caused all the students to come each one before his friend Accrisio the fiscal, and himself, and to confess how often they had been at the cook's house, or eaten abroad; and he assured them, that they were bound in conscience every one to accuse himself. He was the examiner, his jesuits the notaries, and when he had gotten this advantage against the young men, he divulged what pleased himself; he incensed the Pope, the Cardinals, and all the city against them, & wrought the utter discredit of our countrymen, which before that day were honoured and highly esteemed of (not without great cause) in that town, and all the Christian world beside. Then brought he in the orders, which the jesuits had so much desired: he dismissed divers of the disgraced priests into England with ordinary faculties, and with friendship (as then he pretended) but recalled their faculties before they arrived in Flaunders, and sent infamous libels against them unto his jesuits in England, containing most vile crimes; whereof (as the priests protest upon their salvation) they were altogether innocent, and not so much as once examined of, whiles they were in Rome. The priests at their departure, fearing that Fa. Parson's bad dealing would have no end nor measure, besought him to let their faults be known in their presence, lest that after they were gone, other things might be laid unto them than they had either confessed or done. This he would not grant, but willed them to departed in peace, and to assure themselves, that he had no great matter against them, except that disorder of eating abroad: the greatest offenders were left behind; yet after these were once gone, he cleared the rest of the greatest crimes, and said they touched only them that were departed. Thus this good Father juggled, and wrought the shame and discredit of our good countrymen among strangers, and prosecuted the utter subversion of their good names in England by his infamous libels.  Gent. 
These be woeful things to hear: but I, and others have noted one wonderful work of Gods in this case, (that is) That many of these young priests so disgraced by Fa. Parson and the jesuits, have fallen since their coming into England into the hands of our common enemies, yet they all have stood constantly to their profession, and endured patiently both prisons, and what else hath been done against them: Which virtuous carriage could not have proceeded from them, if they had been men of that dissolute disposition, as Fa. Parson, and the jesuits would make us believe.  Pr. 
This is admirable indeed, and their virtuous behaviour in time will recover them their credit, and bring confusion upon their slandering adversaries, when the world, frustrate of I know not what, temporal hopes by the jesuits means, shall leave swaying with them. But I pray you, what other slanderous reports do they and their dependents give out against us?   

The fift Slander.  Gent. 
They do say moreover, that you priests be the only Statesmen, and not they. For you be Scotists in faction, labouring to set up the King of Scots, a known heretic, to be king of England.  Pr. 
Thus they slander us throughout the realm, and these be Fa. P. words also in his letters to his associates in England, the 18. of januarie 1599 under the name of Martin Array, when he had the two priests we sent to his Ho. fast in prison. But to refute the malicious slander, we need do no more but appeal to his, and his associates own consciences, and to the indifferent judgements of all honest men. For first, it is so certain and manifest, that Fa. P. with divers of his brethren have dealt in the greatest matters of State that may be, concerning both the present alteration of all, and the future disposition of the crown and kingdom; that with any show of truth or honesty, it cannot be denied: and yet neither he nor all his adherents shall be ever able to prove, or truly to affirm, that those two priests, Master Doctor Bishop, and M. Charnock, or any of us (whom so vehemently they seek to overthrow in our good names by their manifold untrue slanders, and by this shameless letter of his to bring us in hatred with all Catholics in the world, and to stir up against us our own prince and magistrates to bereave us of our lives) he shall never be able to prove, that we have dealt in State matters, or liked of his dealings. It hath pleased him and his fellows presumptuously to tamper in these affairs, which concerned them not. They have set up their rest upon the hopes of Spain, procured the enmity of the king of Scots, and of all other competitors to the crown of England. Now of likelihood, Fa. Parsons is sorry we be not over boots with him, and fearing the event, he waxeth jealous of all men's actions, and specially of ours, whom he knoweth to condemn his dangerous and harmful courses; and the zealous father finding us not to run with him as he would have us for Spain, or the Lady Infanta, (as truly it becometh not us to meddle in these great affairs, but to apply our function, and to commit the disposing of kingdoms and princes businesses to God's wisdom and providence, seeing our intermeddling in them may be offensive and hurtful many ways both to ourselves and our Catholic people, without any profit at all) he imagineth that we be his adversaries, and consequently to favour the king of Scots, whom he hath needlessly made his enemy: which king of Scots he affirmeth (for our greater disgrace with all Catholics) to be a known heretic, and us to be Scotists in faction; a thing most offensive to our present state, as he saith. In which uncharitable calumnies, how Fa. Parsons can acquit himself of too bad dealing, both with the present State, and us, it goeth beyond my capacity to understand. For how knoweth he that it offendeth the present State, her Majesty, her honourable Council, and other magistrates, that any should affect the king of Scots, and prefer him before all others after her Majesty's decease. The present State maketh no show at all of any such aversion from the king of Scots and his title. Fa. Parson's then upon his own surmise should not affirm so odious a thing. Which if it be true, and so conceived upon his assertion, it may very well be matter of disgust and quarrel between her Majesty and that king, and perhaps touch the present State, with dissimulation of kindness towards him. And if it be false, it must be very injurious to the present State, and both their royal persons. And for us, what temerity and uncharitable dealing is this in a jesuite, to write, That so many Catholic priests are Scotists in faction, and that without any respect of religion at all, they are about to set up the king of Scots, a known heretic, and this to offend now the present State? If we should go about such an enterprise, no doubt, but we should grievously offend the present State, no less than the jesuits have done, by their endeavours to set up a Spaniard; it being prohibited by the laws of the realm, under a capital penalty, That none shall meddle with the matter of succession, during her Majesty's life that now is; much less, attempt the setting up of any, before her Majesty be dead. And in this case, if it had been true, perhaps it had not beseemed Father Parsons to have been the first bewrayer of us, and discoverer of our fault, and thereby bring us all in mortal hatred with the State, and in manifest danger of our lives, he knowing that it would so mightily offend them. But it being altogether untrue on our parts, and no other than his own jealous imagination, he hath done us intolerable injury, thus to make us odious to our own Prince and State, without our ill deserving. I can perceive no other drift he should have in this calumny, than (all his other devices failing) by this untrue fiction, to undo us, whom he reckoneth his adversaries. He knew when he writ this letter, that we went about to procure a prohibition, That no books or Treatises of State-matters should be published, which might any way exasperate her Majesty and the present State against us, which came only to plant Catholic religion among our countrymen, whosoever they were that should govern the kingdom: this I say he knew very well. How then in a charitable mind could he think it likely, that we ourselves were about to set up the king of Scots, which (as he confesseth) would most of all offend the present State? We desired to avoid all occasions of offence, and this good Father will nevertheless accuse us to offend in the highest degree. It is not convenient nor safe for us to follow Father Parson's designs in these matters of princes and kingdoms, and therefore he and his associates must pardon us, if we dislike their doings, and quite refuse to join with them.  Gent. 
It behoveth you to do no less, especially in these dangerous times, when a man shall hazard much, and lose all ere he be aware. But surely, Father Parsons had some notable policy in his head about these State-affairs, when he procured, That the Archpriest his authority should be extended over all English priests in England and Scotland.  Priest. 
He had no other, than that by this absurd mean he might further the Spanish title, and hinder the Scots. For when he procured this authority, the Catholic Archbishop of Glasco was living, and relieved by the king's consent and grant, out of the revenues of his Bishopric. And yet was this Archp. authority stretched throughout all the kingdom of Scotland, without any respect or subordination at all to that Archbishop; for no other end, but that there should be no friendship, familiarity, conversation, nor communion between our priests and the Catholics of Scotland, and thereby the people of both nations be kept still at their ancient mortal enmity.  Gent. 
Me thinks this cannot be but very uncharitable, and absurd. For the English priests having from his Holiness jurisdiction to minister Sacraments, as well in Scotland as in England, why should they not as freely (if they be so disposed) help to save the Scots, as the English? Or why should that people for a controversy about Titles and Crowns, be debarred of their spiritual relief by our priests, considering they have almost none of their own? The work of God should not be hindered through these vain respects. And again, it seemeth, that Father Parson's policies in temporal matters, blinded his judgement in spiritual. For how unfitting and unseemly is it, That an Archpriest in England should have his authority extended into the diocese of an Archbishop in another kingdom, without any dependence, or subordination unto him? What can be more injurious both to the Archbishop and to the Priests, than this? The priests be free, and at their own choice it is, Whether they will continue and labour in these dangerous works, or leave them. If weary of England, they pass into France, Germany, Spain, or any other part of Christendom, except Scotland, they are without the Archpriest his jurisdiction; the Bishops of those countries may dispose of them: but if for their own safeties, or for desire of saving souls, or for any other good respect they depart into Scotland, the Catholic Archbishop there cannot dispose of them, not employ them nor hold them, otherwise than the Archpriest in London will give them leave; in his power it is, and not in the Archbishops within his own See, what authority, and faculties they shall have; whether they shall use any part of their function, or no; and finally, he may enforce them either to leave that kingdom, how needful soever they be for Christian souls, or else to remain unable to do them good, with many more like inconveniences.  Priest. 
The disorder is exceeding preposterous, and shameful, but thus it pleased Father Parsons to frame all to his own purpose, without regard either of Priests, or Archbishops, or Christian souls, or Christ himself. But to end this point of their slander, with a manifest confutation and show of their ill dealing with us: I pray you confer this. That we be Scotists in faction, and that we deal in matters of State, with their other slander, which we have already touched before; that was, That we are highly favoured by the State, and maintained by the Council and Magistrates: we need no more, but for a sufficient confutation to set the one against the other. For if it be true, That we be Statesmen, and go about to set up the king of Scots; and withal, that this most of all doth offend the present State (as they say;) it cannot surely be true, that we are highly favoured and maintained by the State and Council, as they report for our disgrace: Because the State and Council will not favour nor relieve them, that so greatly offend them by their dealing in state matters. Or again, if this latter be true, That the Council favour and maintain us: it must of necessity be false, That we offend them by tampering for the king of Scots. But whiles undiscreet zeal and uncharitable affections move the jesuits and their adherents to injury us by all means they can, they run themselves headlong into these absurdities, to make one of their slanders to confute another. For they all being untruths, uttered upon a mighty stomach, and a vehement desire to discredit us, they hang together, and agree like Sampsons' Foxes: but our innocency and truth I hope will prevail in the end against all malice, and iniquity, and cunning shifts.   
FINIS.