AN ANSWER TO THE TEN REASONS OF EDMUND CAMPIAN THE JESVIT, IN CONFIDENCE WHEREOF HE offered disputation to the Ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. WHEREUNTO IS ADDED IN BRIEF MARGINAL NOTES, THE sum of the defence of those reasons by JOHN DURAEUS the Scot, being a Priest and a jesuit, with a reply unto it. WRITTEN FIRST IN THE LATIN TONGVE BY THE REVEREND AND faithful servant of Christ and his Church, WILLIAM whitaker's, Doctor in Divinity, and the King's Professor and public Reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. AND NOW FAITHFULLY TRANSLATED FOR the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by RICHARD STOCK, Preacher in London. IN THIS TREATISE, MOST OF THE Controversies betwixt us and the Church of Rome are briefly and plainly handled. THE PRINCIPAL THINGS IN EVERY ANSWER are gathered into a short sum, and are set down after the Epistle to the Reader. Imprinted at London by FELIX KYNGSTON, for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver. 1606. TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE WILLIAM LORD KNOWLES, BARON OF GREYS, TREASURER OF HIS majesties Household, and one of the Lords of his majesties most Honourable privy Council. RIght Honourable, the Religion, or more truly, the superstition of the malignant Church of Rome, hath two special privileges above any religion in the world that either hath been, or is. The one, that the professors of it may eat their God in the Sacrament: the other, that they may kill their King in their discontentment; not only when he is an Heretic, but, as the law saith, It is the reason given why Pope Zacharie deposed Hilaerike King of France, and set up Pipine in his place in Gratians decree. part. 2. caus. 15. c. 3. Alius. when he is Inutilis, not for their turn and to their minds. The former hath been the cause of the spilling of much blood in the days of Q. Mary: the latter of deposing of so many Kings, and murdering of them, in France, and other places of Christendom, and of the manifold treasons in the days of Queen Elizabeth of blessed and happy memory. And of two attempts against his sacred person and state, in these three years space. The first was but a smoke, the latter should have been a sire: the first was but the lightning; the latter should have been the thunderclap; if he that is the God both of lightning and thunder had not graciously prevented it. Now the former of these points they defend every where: but the latter they a little blush to hear of; not that it is not in their hearts, but because their hands want power to effect it. Yet that it is their doctrine and constant opinion, hath been proved in a small treatise, which I presented to ●our I honour some few months ago. And that so apparently that they are at a default, as the Council was Act. 4.16. What shall we do to these men? for surely a manifest sign is done by them, and is openly known to all them who dwell in jerusalem: and we cannot deny it. So with a little change it may be said by them; What shall we say to these things? for surely a manifest truth is told by them, and it is openly known to all them who dwell in England: and we cannot deny it. For though they have endeavoured to answer it, yet they have not been able to deny any thing in it. Only these Charmers of the spiritual Egypt have endeavoured to do in like manner with their enchantments. Exod. 7.11. But as all the Sorcerers miracles were not true, but only sleights and tricks by the help of Satan: so are not these for the most part, but only jaglings, and not able to deceive any but fools & children, either the ignorant, or the seduced already. And in many things in effect they say as judah: Gen. 44.16. How can we justify ourselves? God and man hath found out the wickedness of us all. But not to digress further: at the time of my presenting of the foresaid Treatise to your Honour, it pleased you to show me Campians ten Reasons, lately taken in a Papists house, translated into English; wherewith many were peru●●●ed, and others made to stagger in the way o● truth; because of the goodly show of truth that such gilded lies have put upon them by such cunning Orators. Your Honour was then given to understand, that they were answered by divers, especially by that worthy and excellent Instrument of God's glory, and one of the most glorious lights of our English Church, Doctor whitaker's. The book was showed you; but being written in the Latin tongue, you wished for the more benefit of the general, that it might be turned into English. Your will was a command unto me, who profess I own much duty to your Honour, and have had less opportunity than will to show it, for these few years space I have been towards you: and now as soon as I could, for my public service of the Church in my poor ministery, I have effected it. Touching which if I may be bold to deliver what I think in few words, thus much I say for Campians reasons: I account him bold in all, foolish in many things; yet wise in this, that in the beginning he tells us they are his ten chief Reasons. Herein he is like to the foolish Painter, who when he had made two pictures of two small beasts, which after they were made, nothing resembled those which he intended, writ over their heads, This is such a beast, and this such an one. So he having composed these ten Rhetorical speeches, being so without reason, which he intended they should have had, he calls them reasons, lest the reader in perusing should have mistaken them, as he he had done in writing. Doubtless at a conclusion Campian is an excellent fellow; and if he could have furnished as good premises, as he hath enhanced and amplified the conclusion, he would have put the answerer to much trouble. But now we may say of them as Hierom said of the books of jovinian: Hieron. adverse. jovinian. lib. 1. It is harder to know what he holds, Multo difficilius est nosse, quam vincere. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Portenta verborum descriptionis dedecus. Vel per f●brem somniare, vel a reptum morbo phrenetico, Hippocratis vinculis alligandum. Hieron. count Heluid. cap. 3. Ne respondendo dignus fieret, qui vinceretur. Quia loquacitat●m facundia existimat. Quia maledicere omnibus, bonae consereatiae signum arbitratur. Obscandalum fratrum, qui ad cius rabien movebantur. than to confute his opinions: not for any deepness of matter, but because he is as Hierome calls jovinian, one that loves to speak darkly. For he hath (as he speaketh) bombasted words, deformed discourses, and he that reads him advisedly, would think him either dreaming in some distempered fit of an Ague, or perhaps rather sick of a frenzy, so that he had need of Hypocrates physic or fetters: which had been far more meet for him, than an answer from so worthy a man. Hierome had three special reasons why he was hardly induced to answer helvidius. First, lest by answering he should make him be thought worthy the encounter. Secondly, because he accounted his babbling to be eloquence. Thirdly, because he made it a note of a good conscience, to rail and speak evil of others. Which things might well have stayed this worthy man from writing, seeing all these three might well be feared, yea manifestly sound in this heretical jesuite, more than in helvidius. But as Hierome, to remove the scandal of the brethren, who were moved by his outrage, or might be infected by his poison, broke off his silence: so did this excellent Champion of Christ encounter with this uncircumcised Philistine of Antichrist; and hath answered him for manner, not as he and his manner of writing well deserved, August. count lit. Petill. Do nat. lib. 2. c. 37. Tantum vos diliganius, ut vivatis, quantis ●estiis errorem odimus, ut intereat, qui vos perdit. but yet withal so, as his own nature and mild disposition was accustomed, who might have said of himself as Augustine of his dealing with the Donatists: We so love your persons that we wish you may live; and so hate your error, as desiring it should perish, which works your ruin. So meekly hath he answered him in all things, save some few times by his provecations he is a little sharp, as Moses the meekest man was once or twice moved at his people and their perverseness. For the matter, he hath kept that course with him, which he hath commonly and commendably (in my poor opinion) observed, when he dealt with other adversaries, that is, hath answered to the full that is objected, but hath not troubled himself to forecast what might be moreover objected, to take that away; which makes any man's work both tedious and obscure. And this as it seemeth hath been the cause of Duraeus his reply: it falling out in this war, which Campian speaks of, as in marshal affairs; when the defendant maketh show of no more strength, then that by which he might well repel and conquer the present assaults of the first part of the band; the second is provoked and tolled on upon hope of the victory, as if there were not strength enough to resist them: so Duraeus happily thought, that D. whitaker's had spent all his strength in opposing of Campian, and that he should have found an easy adversary in a second encounter: but his hopes deceived him, for he hath found him sufficient for this assault also. Now Duraeus his defence of Campian, and D. whitaker's of himself, have I, according to your Honour's desire, annexed to the other, but yet only by brief marginal notes: wherein I have endeavoured to make both the objection and answer as full as I could, and do injury unto neither. If the adversaries shall think that I have not given their Champion's reasons and objections, their full weight, I protest to them wittingly I have not diminished him any thing at all. If they think he hath any more force in himself, let them translate him into English; and though my leisure be small from my public Ministry and ordinary studies, yet will I take so much time from them, as to translate Doctor whitaker's also to the full. In this which I have done, I have not taken that liberty in translating of the answers, as I find he hath done who hath translated Campian, and yet have I not strictly tied myself unto the words, but followed our English phrase, which hath his propriety of speech, as well as the Latin. Not to be too troublesome to your Honour in withholding you from the treatise which followeth. When you come to it, you shall hardly find any controversy betwixt us and the Synagogue of Rome, but it is in part touched, (confusedly I grant, but otherwise it could not be, seeing he was to follow the steps of him who had very little method in him, and less matter) and therefore it may be as an Enchiridion, which being ever had with you, and read with some diligence, as your great affairs of the state will permit you, you shall hardly be unfurnished of some pregaant matter, against almost all the points, which the adversaries have made goodly in show, but nothing in substance. And thus I commend these my small labours to your Honour, who set me on work. Vouchsafe I humbly beseech you, to accept them as a memorial of my duty to your honour. And as you have always professed the true Christian and Apostolic faith, and detested error & superstition: so I entreat your Honour that according to your place you will still endeavour to maintain the same truth against all Opposers: and further the good laws, Ille haereticum interficit, qui esse haereticum patitur. Caeterum nostra correptio, vivificatio est, ut haeresi moriens, vivas Catholicae fidei. Hieron. coat. Pelag. lib. 3. c. 6 but specially the execution of them against all such seducers as this Campian was in his time. And if that be true of Jerome: He kills an heretic who suffers him to be an heretic: but a just punishment of them is the quickening and putting life into them, that dying to their heresy, they may live to the Catholic faith. Vouchsafe them also this pity, knowing at length by experience it is not the way for authority to wi● them by lenity, but to repress them, and so gain them by just severity. At the leastwise have compassion on the many thousands of this kingdom that have been and daily are corrupted by their enchantments, and thereby made arch-enemies of their Prince, the Church, and State, yea and of their own salvation. Now the God of glory, 1. Sam. 2. ●0. who honours them that honour him, increase your spiritual graces and earthly honour, and make you more and more a special instrument under his Highness of the peace and welfare of the Church and Commonwealth, accomplishing all your desires for present prosperity and future felicity. Your Honour's Chaplain in all humble service, RICHARD STOCK. TO THE CHRISTIAN READERS. THe holy Apostle S. Paul knowing his calling, and remembering well his commission, which he had received from Christ, saith: Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel. 1. Cor. 1.17. Not meaning that he had no commission to baptize at all, for than had he offended, when he baptized some; but that this was the special end, and the chiefest part of his calling, to preach. So to allude to it, I may say of my calling, that Christ sent me not to write, but to preach; so I judge of that one talon Christ hath given me, if I be able to judge aright of it. Which hath been the reason why I have withstood so many motions of friends, who have set upon me with earnestness to have published in print divers things, God enabled me to utter in preaching. And knowing the necessity of preaching, and feeling the greatness of the burden, as S. Paul said, Who is sufficient for these things, 1. Cor. 2.16. I find all my private studies little enough for my public ministery, that the more I attain unto, the more I may communicate to others. As the Preacher saith, Eccles. 12.9 The more wise the Preacher was, the more he taught the people knowledge, and caused them to hear, and searched forth, and prepared many parables. I am not of their minds, who think that a man may gather Manna enough upon the day before the Sabbath, to serve his family or charge upon the Sabbath itself. And though I know men have their several gifts, some men able to do that in an hour, which another cannot do in three; yet I know and acknowledge my own strength and ability to be such, as that I must have much more time than many others; which both hath made me unwilling, and will so make me still, to distract myself, or entangle my mind with any other thing than with my ordinary ministery. I have often thought of Augustine's observation, that our Saviour Christ preached much, De consens● Evangelist. lib. 1. cap. 7. but wrote nothing: and thence have imputed it a fault to those who have the room of Christ, which are given to write much, and preach little; specially when their places in the Church requires preaching more than writing. I know well that writing is and hath been very profitable to the Church; yet I find a corruption in our times that maketh it less profitable, because I see men buy books more for the Author, than the matter, and delight more to have such a book in their houses, than by diligent reading to have it either in their heads or hearts; by which they are neither able to instruct in the truth, and inform in their duties such as belong to them; neither to defend the truth of God, when they come in places where they meet with such as resist the truth, as jannes' and jambres did Moses, 2. Tim. 3.8. Atheists and Papists I mean, and such like, men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. And so their books are a judgement to condemn them for vain foolish men, according to that of Solomon: Prou. 17.16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of the fool to get wisdom, and he hath no heart? But beloved, let it not be so with you, or so no more, the times are dangerous, there are many deceivers abroad, and many daily deceived, for that they have had a price and opportunity all these golden and happy days of the Gospel to have got wisdom, but have no hearts, but only for wealth, honour, pleasure, and such like. And if you have neglected the opportunity with them, think it high time to lay hold of it, lest it be too late, when the fit occasion is altogether past; and labour and pray for hearts to seek Wisdom, while she cries in the streets and seeks for you; lest you seek her when she will not be found. And the rather, because when there is no love of truth, 2. Thess. 2.11.12. God sends strong delusions, that men should believe lies. That all they might be damned, that believe not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness. It is the wisdom of men when they hear that many false coiners are abroad, to look well what silver or gold they receive, and if they have not either the scales and weights, or the touchstone of the Goldsmith, or the skill to use them to try that they receive, they will ask, and being men that have much to receive and their state stands upon it, they will both have them, and learn the skill to use them. Should it not be so with you? shall these be wiser in their generation, than the children of light? or will you be wiser for the world, than for heaven? If you love heaven, I say, not as you ought, but even in any sort as you love the world, and have in any measure the like care for your spiritual estate, as you have for the temporal, in these dangerous times get to you the balance of the Sanctuary, not to have it in your houses only, but in your hearts and memories. The exhortation of Chrysostome is not so necessary for these times: Commentar. in Coloss. 3.16. Provide for yourselves Bibles; for most have them in their hands and houses. But that he saith in another place is fit for our times: Hom. 3. de Laza. When you are at home, give yourselves to a continual reading of the holy Scriptures. A thing verily much neglected of most in our times, to whom his complaint will well agree: Which of our people go about any thing worthy the name of a Christian? Hom. 13. in Joan. who searcheth out the sense of the Scriptures? undoubtedly none: but the Chessboard and diceplay we find often and every where; but their books are seldom in hand. For your books are seldom in hand, but when you go to Church: they lie in your houses covered with dust, and as it were spread over with spider's webs, as if it seemed you durst not touch them; when the Tables are kept clean with use, and Cards worn black with continual play. But beloved these things should not be so, if either you regard the commandment of Christ, job. 5.39. Search the Scriptures; which is as absolute and general, as that Commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, or steal: or if you reverence the counsel of the Apostle, which is as much as a commandment: Let the word of God dwell plentifully in you in all wisdom. Coloss. 3.16. As good scholars therefore in the school of Christ, give obedience to these things, and use a continual and constant reading of the word, at least every day some part of it: which because it is obscure, not in itself, but by the weakness of man's understanding, as men do to weak eyes apply some wholesome salve, not to make the light more perspicuous, but the eyes more able: so use the help of some other writers, by which you may more profitably read it, and enable yourselves the better to conceive of it, and to know how to apply to every occurrence the things, which are there set down in their most excellent and wise order, though somewhat hidden and enfolded to those, who have not their senses, as they ought, exercised therein. And if any desire some direction for himself, in studying both the Scriptures and other books, which may help for the understanding of them, and their better instruction in the matters of salvation; I will entreat them first to hear the ancient and worthy Father and Elder of the ancient Romish Church (when as, though not without some blemishes, Note that it is neither new, nor heretical, nor dangerous for the common people to read the scripture, and that by the judgement of the Church of Rome, in her purer times. Hieron. ad Laetam de institut. siliae, epist. 7. it held the foundation, which now it hath quite overthrown) Hierome I mean, whose counsel I would make the ground of my advice fitting our times. He directing Lata for the education of her daughter for this point, adviseth thus: Let her first read the Psalms, that by such heavenly hymns she may withdraw herself from vain delights. Then the proverbs of Solomon, that thence she may have excellent instructions for the government of her life. Then Ecclesiastes, that by it she may learn to contemn all worldly things. After these the book of job, that she may follow the examples of virtue and patience: let her proceed to the Gospels, and never lay them out of her hands: the Acts and the Epistles of the Apostles, let her studiously read and make them the delight of her heart. And when she hath furnished the storehouse of her soul with these riches, let her heedfully read the Prophets, the five books of Moses, the books of the Kings and Chronicles, and the small volumes of Ezra and Hester. And in the last place the Song of Songs; lest if she read it first of all, she may happily be wounded, while she is not able to understand the spiritual marriage Song, set out under carnal words. But let her take heed of all the books of Apocrypha: and if at any time she will read them, not for the truth of doctrine, but for the reverent resemblance they may seem to have with the holy Scriptures; let her take this instruction withal, that they were not written by those, whose names they carry, and that in them also there are many corrupt things scattered here and there: and therefore it is a special point of wisdom to cull out the gold from the dross. Let her have with her the books of Cyprian: let her run over the Epistles of Athanasius and books of Hilary, without fear of error. Let her delight in their writings and ●its, in whose books is delivered the sound doctrine of faith. Other men's works let her so read, that she may rather censure them, than be tied to follow them. Thus far Hierome. Which direction of his, as touching the forepart of it, the Scriptures and Apocrypha, if any think they could better advise, let them for me enjoy their conceit, under their correction I will subscribe fully to it. In the latter part, because he speaketh of Authors not in our natural tongue, in stead of them I would commend these unto you, written originally in our own tongue. For matter of controversy, Doctor Bilson, now Lord Bishop of Winchester, his true defence between Christian subjection and unchristian rebellion against the jesuits. Doctor Fulke his answer to the Rhemist Testament, and divers other of his works: and Doctor willet's Synopsis. For matter of conscience, the Works of Master Greenham and Master Rogers. For matter both of conscience and soundness of faith, the Works of Master Perkins. Many other particular Treatises of special things there are, written by good and learned men; which you may read as occasion may offer it, and the advice of discreet men may encourage you. Now with the books of the first kind would I commend this particular book, which, at the commanding request of an honourable person, I have both reduced into one book, written by several Authors in several Treatises, and translated into English for your benefit. In which the greatest part of the controversies betwixt us and the Church of Rome, you shall find in some part touched. The state of the question plainly laid down, and some manifest, short and pithy answer or resolution of it. Two Papists are the opponents, Campian an Englishman, and Duraeus a Scot; one Englishman and a famous light of our Church hath answered them both. The answer to the first was more sparing, because the adversaries objections were either slender, or slightly urged. But there is so full a supply made thereof by the answer to the second, that he had little stomach or ability to make a rejoinder. The whole work I assure you (if you dare take my judgement) will be very profitable, if so be you will be attentive & diligent readers. For besides that good which is in itself, it will be a notable introduction to all other Treatises of controversies, that with more ease and facility you may read them, and with more profit be conversant in them. The text (as I may so call it) is Campians and Doctor whitaker's; the marginal notes are composed of Duraeus his objections in defence of Campian and the Romish errors, and the reply of Doctor whitaker's in defence of the truth and his own answer. Duraeus is noted thus; DUR. Doctor whitaker's thus; WHIT. I have as fitly as I could placed every objection with his answer near unto that which is excepted against: and if any thing happen, by the oversight of the Printer, or length of the note to be not so aptly placed, take a little pains to look over the precedent and subsequent pages. I confess I have in Duraeus omitted many things, because they either were not pertinent for the defence of Campian, or but the multiplication of many testimonies out of the Fathers, which have their full answer in the general, or answered in some other place before. The number in every answer noteth the page where it is to be found in Doctor whitaker's his reply, that any man may turn and read the answer at large, if he understand the tongue, and receive more contentment. Yet this know, there are several impressions of the books, which also differ; that which I followed was imprinted anno 1583. For the most part I have only in quotations set down the book, chapter and verse, both of the Scriptures and Fathers, and seldom recited the whole words (because the margin would not bear it) but when the substance of the answer consisted in them; and therefore you must both help me & yourselves in using your Bibles to peruse the places. The superiors directing you to what place every note belongs, are the letters of the Alphabet. If there be sometimes a note and no superior, you must conceive it belongs unto the former note, where the superior is. And if the number be sometimes omitted, you must so understand that the answer is in the second page where the former is noted. The objection you shall often find to have divers parts and particulars in it, and so also the answer semblably. Therefore you must take pains for your profit to compare one thing with another, and one part with another. If you follow these directions, you shall read the whole with no small fruit to yourselves. And yet to make it more profitable unto you, I have in reading the sheets over, as they were printed, gathered the sum of every answer and the chief matter in it, not in any order, I confess, which had been a thing impossible, because no method is in it; not from any error of the Answerer, but because he was forced to follow a fellow that road a wild goose chase. The benefit of which epitome may be this: If you read the sum of every answer, before you read each particular answer, it will well prepare you to conceive of the answer itself; if after, which I could wish also you would do, than it will present to you the whole as it were in a map. When you have read both and the whole book, if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly, and can but tell or make some nigh conjecture in what answer it is laid down, with reading of one page you may find in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found. Finally, let it encourage you the ●●ther to read this Treatise, because you shall find in it whatsoever is by our late Papists in their Pamphlets and Treatises, which they have audaciously sent abroad in these few last years, (when the laws have been laid asleep and the just severity of them greatly qualified) I say, whatsoever is in them either objected against our Church and doctrine, or spoken in their own defence, is here to be found, and a solid answer given unto them, if any thing would give them satisfaction. If you be but well exercised in this one book, out of it you may gather some smooth stones, as out of a brook, by which, though you should not be enabled to hold any long war with a cunning Papist, yet you may smite him in the forehead, and fell him groveling to the earth, 1. Sam. 17. as David did the uncircumcised Philistine. The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith, Jude vers. 3. which was once given unto the Saints. A naked and unarmed man may well contend, but shall never be able to maintain any thing committed to him, but it will soon be taken from him; so may I say for the truth, it is not words but weapons, and weight of divine reason that must defend it: therefore must every Christian soldier, that thinks to have the crown, take to him such armour as God's Armoury will afford him. Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth itself, because of your infirmity, they are here brought to your hand, and you withal are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word itself. Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth, and arm you with his grace, that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your salvation, 2. Tim. 4.7.8. and that you may fight a good fight, and finish your course, and keep the faith that you may obtain the crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge will give at the last day unto all those that love his appearing. Yours ever in the Lord, Richard Stock. The sum of the answer to the first Reason, which is holy Scripture. 1 Papist account themselves disarmed if they must fight only with the scriptures. Page 24. nota. 2 Of the number of the Canonical scriptures, that Luther and Caluine and their followers have put out none which antiquity and the purest Churches have received. Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata, not Luther. Page 26 4 Luther only thought not basely of the Epistle of S. james, but antiquity also. Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reverence this Epistle of S. james. Page 28. 30 6 Luther never writ so contemptuously of the Epistle of Saint james as Campian affirms. Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers have taught justification by faith alone. Page 30 8 The place of S. james expounded and proved not to be contrary to the doctrine of justification by faith only. Page 31 9 Not Protestant's of late, but the Fathers of old, have put out of the Canon Tobias, Ecclesiasticus, the two books of Maccabees, and divers other books. Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonical scriptures, but are forced to fly to the Apochryphas. Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Council of Trent denieth traditions to be of equal authority with the scripture. Page 34 12 Protestants have denied no one book, or word of any book of Canonical scriptures. Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect, but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word, and their worship flat against the word. Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no freewill by nature. Page 37 15 The books of the Maccabees are rejected by divers Fathers, and the Laodicene Council. ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead, nor for the dead are lawful. Page 38 17 Se●●en books of the Apochryphas were put out of the Canon by Hierome, a thousand years before Caluine was borne. Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. books of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome. Page 39 19 Protestants have not cut out of the Canon six epistles of the new Testament, but honour them much, neither have the Lutherans. Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonical books reconciled. Page 41. 42 21 Meli●o Bishop of Sardis though he put the book of Wisdom in the Canon, yet he excludeth all the rest. Page 43 22 The Laodicene Council forbiddeth the reading of those books which are without the Canon, and alloweth only the reading of th●se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament. 43.44. The Council of Carthage allowed them only for manners: nota, for three hundred years these books were not in the Canon, so confesseth Duraeus, nota Page 43 23 The Council of Carthage denied the Pope to be universal Bishop. Page 43 24 The Papists cruelty far surpasseth the Protestants just severity. Page 45 25 The scriptures have in themselves many proofs that they are the word of God, but the certain, infallible, and saving assurance is from the spirit of God. Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the judgement of the spirit in respect of the judgement of the Church, as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonical, neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church. It hath in itself his own authority. Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may have some knowledge of the scripture but no faith. The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others, but confirms ourselves: Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not only surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps, but oven antiquity received it not, you re●ected it. Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospel of S. john, and Paul's Epistles before the other Gospels, and why. Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospel is, and who especially is an Evangelist. Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Luke's Gospel. Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecism than Hierome did in charging S. Paul. Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined and explained. Page 53. 54 The sum of the second answer, touching the true meaning of the Scripture. 1 The substance and soul of the scripture is the true meaning. Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold, but which is agreeable to the scripture. ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures; that is, first Bishops, than Counsels; in their defect, the Pope: for he so challengeth it, that whatsoever he thinketh, that must be the meaning of it. Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures upon one man's judgement, especially upon the Pope, so unlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them have been Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions. Page 61 6 Four senses of every scripture made by Papists. Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants, which is ancient and safe. Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper, as Papists falsely accuse them; yet they include him not in it, as Papists do; his natural body they place in heaven, but the virtue, communion, and benefit of this body they exclude not, but maintain that whole Christ is present to each man's faith. Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptism, and was to the Fathers, as in the Supper. ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words, This is my body, this my blood, confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirm them, that is, by conference of them with the words adjoining. Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament be figurative, is proved by the induction of other sacraments. Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament. Page 67 13 Papists affirm that the wicked eat the body of Christ as well as the believer. Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists, and so their transubstantiation is a new invention. Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleged, and of Theodoret. Page 68 69 16 The testimony of Macarius a Monk. Page 70 17 Campian dealeth unequally, pressing the Protestants to leave the judgement of the scripture and stand to the judgement of the Pope being an enemy to them. Page 71 The sum of the third answer, touching the nature of the Church. 1 The true notes of the Church, whose present being maketh a true Church, whose absence marreth and overthroweth it, are the word the whole and pure sacraments. Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and unknown than the Scripture. Page 78. nota 3 The Church is ever and must be upon the earth and oftentimes invisible, compared therefore of Augustine to the Moon. Page 78 4 In the days of Ahab and of Christ it was invisible, or scarce visible. Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church, for it hath been and yet no Church, as in the Church of the jews. Page 81 6 The small number of the faithful as Christ's 〈◊〉. Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church. Page 82. 83 8 Though particular Churches are visible, it followeth not that the Catholic Church is ever visible. ibid. 9 The antiquity of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time. Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing upon the Church. Page 84 11 The growing of the Pope's authority to the height, it is now at. 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church. Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subject to the Romish Church. ibid. 14 The vow of virginity not understood by faith in S. Paul, and what is meant by it. Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe. Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites: in the invisible, only godly and faithful men. Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and invisible make not two Churches, but one, and how they differ; and what the Catholic Church is. nota The sum of the fourth Answer, touching general Counsels. 1 Protestants with consent of antiquity prefer the Scripture before Counsels. Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Counsels. Page 95 3 The first Council hold by the Apostles and Church by necessary consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceremonies. Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time, how would he complain if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies. Page 96 5 Gregory's speech expounded touching the four general Counsels. Page 97 6 The judgement of the Church of England touching the four general Counsels. Page 98 7 The Popes may not have Peter's honour, seeing they have not his virtues and piet●●. 99 8 The Canon of the Council of Nice utterly overthrowed the supremacy of the Pope, giving him no authority over other churches, no more than others over his. Page 100 101 9 The Council of Chalcedon doth not confirm the Pope's supremacy, but overthrows it. The Council gave to the church of R●●● greater prerogatives, because it was the chief seat of the Empire, and not for any law of God, and made the Bishop of Constantinople equal with the Bishop of Rome. Page 101. 102 10 The Council of Constantinople gave unto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place, not of authority. Page 103 11 The Council of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops. ibid. 12 The Council of Nice doth not establish the unbloody sacrifice of the altar, for in the canon named, there is no mention of sacrifice or altar. Page 104 13 The Fathers have called the Lords Supper an unbloody sacrifice, because it is without blood, and not because no blood is then shed. Page 105 14 Saints departed know neither us nor the things we do or sl●●●d in need of, no reason than we should pray unto them, though the custom be ancient it hath no warrant. Page 106 15 Saints departed know our general conditions, as we theirs, not our particular state. nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romans and Corinthians, as Papists do to Saints, but required of them a christian duty. nota 17 The Council of Chalcedon admi●teth ministering Widows, who are but 40. years of age, forbidding them marriage; when as S. Paul would have them 60. before they be admitted. Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage. nota 19 They who have vowed single life, and cannot perform it, have done evil in vowing, but not in marrying, and for to vow things not in our power, is to mock God. Page 108 20 Chastity and single life is not in man's power. nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who have vowed virginity, if they cannot live honestly, to marry. Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Council of Trent and other Counsels equal with the four Evangelists. Page 110 23 Private men alleging the scripture, rather to be believed, than the Council, is not only Lo●hers judgement, but Gersons and Panormitans. Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Council of Trent. Page 112 25 john Husse burned at the Council of Constance contrary to the emperors warrant. Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperor or any secular Prince may hinder the proceed of Ecclesiastical judges. nota 27 Ecclesiastical judges, that is the Council, is above the Emperor. Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Council upon the emperors word. Pag. 114 The sum of the fifth answer, touching the Fathers. 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side, when there is nothing less. Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite, whom Paul converted to the faith; and his hierarchy as novelty. Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius, they boast so much of, was a counterfeit. Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weak; Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to have written something unsoundly, therefore he is altogether on the Papists side▪ he erect about the time of Christ's preaching, baptism, and death; he was a millenary. Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst, and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare. And that the Philosophers in hellexpe●ted Christ's coming, and being taught by him believed. Page 127 6 Tertullian in his book of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church. Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit, and his book of Antichrist, which guesseth that the Devil was Antichrist. Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian, by Nazianzenes' report of him what he was in his youth. Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance, making it a kind of satisfaction, they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it. Page 129 10 Chrysostome, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome, are not wholly on the Papists side, because Luther and others censured them in some things. Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers, but as the pharisees were of Moses, and the jews of Abraham. Protestants reverence the Fathers, but acknowledge but one father, which is in heaven. nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong, if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in answering the high Priest, and imputing some wants to Christ. Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture. Page 132 14 It is lawful to prefer one man in the truth, before all Fathers and Counsels in error. Page 132 15 Lent fast though ancient, yet was it not ordained by Christ or his Apostles, the manner of obscruing it, not the same in all Churches. Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow, the same judgement they have which Augustine hath, who knew not Lenten●fast. Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are marvelous voluptuous, and live in sensuality, far unlike those who have been. Page 134 18 Relics of Saints not burned, nor their funerals removed, but their superstitions, injurious to God and his glory. Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his book of free-will doth not establish it, but showeth, that sin cometh from man's free-will, not from God, and therefore entitled his book so. Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in free-will. Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessity is not opposite to the freedom of Will, but to force and compulsion; man lost not his will, but the quality of it. nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquity, unity, and succession, if sincere wisdom and truth went with them, else he preferred truth before them; so do Protestants. Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholic Church, so are schismatics to be dealt with, but not from the now Romish church which is no true church. Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthony and other hermits like him, have not successors like themselves. He accounted a Monastery for a Monk as water is to fish. Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius used a poetical liberty in his devotions to Saints. Page 140. & nota 26 Praying to Saints had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose lived, and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it. Page 141. nota 27 Gregory without any warrant called Images lay men's books. Page 141 28 It is lawful to break down Images by warrant of the word and examples in it, and in the stories of the primitive Church. nota 29 Not Protestant's but Papists reject oftentimes the testimony of the Fathers, and fly to Counsels. pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good: Protestants reject some things in the Fathers, therefore they reject their whole volumes; for if it be good, it will fall upon themselves. Page 142 30 Protestants have reason to prohibit popish books being full of sedition and horesie, specially seeing in Queen mary's time they executed martial law upon any that had the books of Protestants. Page 143 31 Bishop jewel proved all the ancient Fathers to be against the church of Rome, in disputing with Harding, as he had assumed at the Cross. Page 144. 145 The sum of the sixth Answer touching the foundation of the Fathers. 1. Campians reason is weak: The Fathers have studied the scriptures diligently, and preferred them before all other writings, therefore their exposition of them is sound and good, not to be rejected without sin. Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11. Page 151 3 Not only every particular Fatherma●erre, but all of one age have erred in a particular of setting up Images in the Church. Page 150 nota 4 Augustine, Innocent, and other Bishops thought it necessary the Eucharist should be given to infants. Page 151. nota 5 Papists leave the scriptures and search out and follow after men's invention. Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to read them, but Christ commandeth all. Page 152. nota 7 It is proved against Duraeus, that Christ hath commanded the simple to read the scriptures, and hath left to them the books of the scriptures. Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keep them to the scriptures. Page 153 9 Denys is against the private Mass. Page 160 10 Private Masses cannot profit the absent. Page 160. nota 11 In justine Martyrs time they gave to the people both the bread and wine. ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equal with Peter, and denies that any appeals should be made to the Bishop of Rome. ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together. ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images, but the Gods expressed by them. ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient. ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary. ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer up sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints. Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a known tongue. ibid. 19 Prayers in an unknown tongue profit not the people, as Duraeus thinks they do. ibid. nota 20 Nazianzene alloweth and praiseth civil society no less than Monkish life. ibid. 21 Ambrose condemns all prayers to Saints, and their intercession. Page 163 22 Duraeus vain distinction of Intercessors and Suffragators. ibid. nota 23 Hierome makes a Bishop and a Priest of equal authority b● the la● of God. ibid. 24 Pope Gelasius condemneth as sacrilegious the taking away of the cup from the people, and commandeth that either both the elements be given to them, or neither. Page 164 25 Duraeus maketh the Manechies the first authors of dismembering the supper. ibid. nota 26 Vigilius denies the presence of Christ in the Church in both natures. ibid. 27 Chrysostome exhorteth all men to read the scriptures. ibid. 28 Augustine is wholly on the Protestants side. Page 165 29 By Gregory's judgement he that calleth himself Universal Bishop, is a forerunner of Antichrist. Page 161 30 john Bishop of Constantinople first challenged the title of Universal Bishop. ibid. 31 What is meant by universal Bishop by Gregory's judgement, which toucheth the Pope home. ibid. nota 32 Boniface the 3. took the name of universal Bishop, and derived it to his successors. Page 166. nota The sum of the seventh Answer, touching histories. 1 Campian only numbering up the Historiographers, foolishly concludeth, all are on their side. page 169 2 Protestants refuse not to examine their doctrine by histories, so they be not tied to the apparent blemishes in them. Page 170 3 Historiographers are tainted with the corruptions of their times, and the later they are, the more corrupt for the most part they are found to be. Page 161 4 The church of Rome is marvelously corrupted, though we could not tell when it begun to be so, and yet see the beginning of some particulars, as of usurped authority over Churches, of denial of Priests marriages, of worshipping Images, of carnal eating in the Sacrament▪ of Transubstantiation▪ of Purgatory of the Pope above Counsels. Page 177. nota 5 The corruption of it gre● not all at once▪ no more than of jerusalem, but by little and little, as in the Greek church also. Page 172 6 The heads of the heretics who rose up in the Greek church, so of those who rose up in the Latin church. ibid. nota 7 The Church all the Apostles time was a pure virgin, after their departure became corrupt. Page 173. 174 8 The promises of the Churches perpetual preservation from corruption, did and do belong to the Church of the elect, not to particular Churches. ibid. nota 9 In the Council of afric where there were present Page 217. Bishops, and Augustine himself, the Bishop of Rome affected to have all appeals made to him, but the Council denied it unto him. Page 175 10 The Legates of the Pope forge a Canon of the Council of Nice to persuade this Council, which forgery is found out by search. ibid. 11 Augustine and the Bishops of Africa censured for schismatics by Boniface for resisting the Bishop of Rome, who affirmeth, that they were moved unto it by the Devil. Page 176 12 Eulalius the first Bishop of Carthage, who admitted the Pope's power over the Churches of Africa. ibid. 13 Then became the Church of Rome plainly Antichristian, when Phocas the murderer granted to her to be the head of Churches, and Boniface the 3. to be universal Bishop. ibid. 14 Gregory the great was the last good, and the first bad Bishop of the church of Rome. Page 177 15 Bernard, and Aeneas Silvius, who was afterward ca●●d Pope Pius, marvelously inue●ed against the corruptions of the church of Rome. ibid. 16 Bernard crieth out of the pomp of Eugenius the P●●e, and the impiety of his court. ibid. nota 17 All sins in Rome might both be practised and reprehended. Page 1●8 18 The censure of Cornelius which he gave of the church of Rome in the Council of Trent. ibid. 19 The Argument is weak; the church of Rome was once holy, therefore it is so still. ibid. 20 Rome though it be Babylon, yet not that which S. Peter spoke of, 1. Pet. 5.13. Neither have they yet proved that Peter was at Rome. Page 179 21 If histories do mention any such thing, yet it is with such variety, that there is no certainty of it; in the scriptures there is not one tittle of it, nay by necessary collection they disclaim it: when as this then is the whole ground of the hierarchy of the Papacy, it is a ground without any foundation of the scripture. ibid. nota 22 Caluine confesseth the church of Rome in the time of Syricius and other Bishops to have been the Church of Chri●t, but denies not but it had erred. Page 181 23 Errors overthrow not a Church for being a true Church. ibid. 24 Syricius the first who enforced single life upon the Ministers. ibid. nota. and Page 182 25 Syricius and Innocent did condemn marriage as evil. Page 182. nota 26 The Church of Rome is but a Church in show and pomp, else it hath nothing in it of a true Church. Page 183. nota 27 Pelagius and Papists agree both about grace inbred in man's nature. ibid. The sum of the eight Answer, touching the Paradoxes of the Adversaries. 1 Caluin nor any Protestant maketh God the author of sin. pag. 193. nota, and Page 194. nota. 2 God hath a finger in the action which is evil, not in the corruption of it, which is wholly from man, but in the motion and action which is in it self good. Page 195 3 If we say God permitteth sin unwillingly, we overthrow his providence and omnipotency; he willeth, yet alloweth not, that which is evil. Page 196 4 Men are guilty of sin in the things they do, which are evil; and yet God holy, though he willeth them. Augustine, and Hugo de Sancto Victore do so think. Page 197. and Page 198 5 The Lord worketh both in him that sinneth, and in him that worketh well, but after a divers manner. Page 199 6 Christ is the Son of the essence of the Father, not by decision or propagation, but by communication. But he is God of himself. Page 201. and nota. 7 The essence is not begotten, but the person of the person. Page 202. and Page 203 8 Beza corrected his error, of two personal unions in Christ. ibid. 9 The 10. of john vers. 30. expounded and defended, that it proveth not the unity of essence in Christ & his Father. Page 204 10 Not Luther only, but many of the Fathers disliked and repent the bringing in of the word Homoousion, yet they held the thing. Page 205 11 Christ was not at the first perfect in wisdom, but mcreased▪ as in body, so in his mind and wisdom. Page 206 12 Christ was ignorant of many things but without sin. Page 208 13 Christ was ignorant of the last day, as man, and not only because he would not, or did not reveal it to others. Page 208. nota. and Page 210 14 There is a negative ignorance which is not sin. Page 208. 209 15 Ch●●●t ●●oke upon him the punishment due to sin both ●gnorance and d●ath. Page ●●9 16 That which raised such fear and horror in Christ, was not the fear of natural death, but the bitter wrath of God against mankind. pag. 210. and 211 17 What the hell was which Christ suffered, and as man feared. pag. 211. nota 18 Christ suffered in soul as well as in body. pag. 211. 212 19 Christ did not go into Limbus after his death. pag. 214 20 Many ancient Creeds both in the Roman and East Church have not this article of Christ's descension into heil. pag. 215. nota 21 What the image of God was in man before his fall. pag. 216 22 The whole image of God is not razed in man, but some relics are remaining. Natural gifts are corrupted, supernatural distinguished. pag. 216. 217 23 That which is in the regenerate of themselves is corrupt, that which they have from God is contrary to their corruption. pag. 218 24 Sin is not a substance nor a mere privation, but an accident, and a corrupt habit, like to a disease. pag. 220 25 Concupiscence is sin, and so judged by Augustine upon great and weighty reason. ibid. nota 26 Sometime he calleth it no sin in opposition to actual sin. pag. 221 nota 27 Sins are not equal neither do Protestants so teach; they all deserve eternal death, though some more some less. pag. 221. 222 28 Grace is double, either the free mercy and love of God towards us, which is without us, in God: or those gifts which flow from this grace, and this is in us. pag. 223 224 29 Christ's righteousness is onputed to us, as our sins to him; Christ having paid our debt, the payment must needs be ours by imputation: and if Papists allow the imputation of the righteousness of Saints, why should they so much scorn the imputation of Christ his righteousness? ibid. nota 30 Charity cannot justify us, because it is imperfect: for that which is faulty cannot justify us. ibid. 31 Imputed and infused righteousness go together in one and the some man. justification and sanctification are distinguished in the word. pag. 225. nota 32 The regenerate by grace cannot so resist their temptations that they should never sin: as the example of S. Paul and others manifest. pag. 226. 227. & nota 33 Our righteousness is a real relation. 228. nota 34 All our righteousness being stained, cannot justify us, and faith, hope, and charity being imperfect, cannot, do it. pag. 229 35 Christ is he that covereth us, by whose righteousness we are adorned. Our righteousness is the covering of the fault. pag. 231 36 Faith alone justifieth: but it is not alone when it doth justify. pag. 232 37 The reasons why we are exhorted to perform works and obedience, as also that we are commanded to apprehend Christ's righteousness by faith. pag. 230 38 A man ought and may be certain of his salvation by the certainty of faith. pag. 232. 233. nota 39 Many are deceived with a conceit of faith: but he that hath it knoweth certainly that he hath it. pag. 233. nota 40 From God's predestination a man may be sure of his perseverance; so the Fathers teach: yet a man must use the means. pag. 234. 235 nota 41 The number of Sacraments are but two in the Church; the novelty of the other five, not any antiquity for them, and pregnant reasons against them. pag. 237. & nota 42 Hugo de S. Victore, and Peter Lombard brought seven Sacraments first into the Church. No Council before the Florentine did ever confirm them. ibid. nota 43 Popish ceremonies in Baptism are new. ibid. nota 44 Protestants have both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ; Papists have no bread nor wine. nota. pag. 239 45 Baptism is both a channel of grace and that which confirms grace, but giveth not grace by the word wrought. Duraeus contrary to the schoolmen, maketh it but an instrument. pag. 239. & nota 46 The Baptisms of john and of Christ were both one in ceremony, in doctrine, and in grace. pag. 240 47 The place against it, Matth. 3.11. Act. 19.4.5. expounded and answered ibid. nota 48 Baptism is not so simply necessary to salvation, that the want of it will condemn; but the neglect or contempt of it is a sin. pag. 241 49 Papists think infants dying without Baptism are d●●●●●ed. A barbarous and a se●selesse opinion, and against all reason. ibid. nota 50 Infants may have faith, as they have life, and know not of it. pag. 242 51 The Sacrament is a Sacrament to all without faith, but not a saving Sacrament to men of years without faith; yet to infants it may be, because the spirit worketh secretly and powerfully. ibid. nota 52 Luther earnestly held that Baptism ought to be given to children, and thought they had faith. pag. 243 53 Caluin against the Anabaptists proved the baptism of infants not by tradition, but Scripture. pag. 244. nota 54 Campian hath no cause to upbraid Protestants with corruption of manners, so long as Rome is so corrupt as as is, and public Stews maintained in it. pag. 245 55 Luther's lascivious speech objected by Campian plainly excused: and a worse objected of Pope Clements. 246.247 56 Luther makes three causes of divorce; and the Papists many more. pag. 246. & nota 57 Marriage is most necessary, for men who cannot live chaste, and commanded. pag. 247 58 Marriage is oftentimes simply better than virginity, though this be to be embraced when a man hath the gift, that he may more freely serve the Lord. pag. 248. & nota 59 The speech of Lauther, saying, The more wicked that thou art, the necrer art thou unto grace: defended in his true sense. pag. 249 60 How all our good actions are tainted with sin, and so may be called sins in Gods severe judgement, and yet good and to be done. pag. 250. & nota 61 The good actions of those who are once in Christ, though tainted, are acceptable unto God, because he looks upon the person, not the work. pag. 251 62 The law belongs to Christians for a rule of their life, though it be abrogated by the new covenant. For they are delivered not from the obedience of it, but the curse of it by Christ. pag. 252 253. 254. & nota 63 God respects the good works of his, but not to justification. pag. 254. & nota 64 The just not only lives, but is justified by his faith, and so much the place of Habacuck proveth. ibid. nota 65 Works not the cause, but the manifestation of righteousness, out of Thomas. ibid. 66 They who have broken hearts and contrite spirits are fittest guests for the Lords table, neither is this against faith. pag. 255 67 Luther was not against public confession, but a private auricular confession of all sins to a Priest only, when by the word it may be made to others. pag. 256. & nota 68 A believing man may have remission of his sins, though the Minister who pronounceth it intent no such thing. pag. 256 69 It is not the duty of the Minister of the Gospel to read prayers by the hour but to give diligence to reading, exhortation and doctrine. pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the laws of Magistrates, but are freed from the religion of them. Their particular laws bind not the conscience, though men must obey their government for conscience sake. pag. 267. ●58. & nota The sum of the ninth Answer, touching the sophisms of the Adversary. 1 jesuits be chief Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdom of Popery. pag. 263 2 The sophisms of the Papists, by which they would overthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons. pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage duty to be an unholy thing. ibid. nota 4 Their sophisms, for the Pope's supremacy: and his excellency above the Emperor: that he is not to be reproved▪ that he cannot err. pag. 265. 266. 267 5 though one Pastor have rule over one flock, it followeth not one must have over all. ibid. nota 6 Their sophisms for private Mass: the Priests communicating alone: that the people must have only one part. pag. 267 7 Their sophisms, that prayers must be in an unknown 〈◊〉 us: that the people may not read the Scriptures. pag. 268 8 Their sophisms, that the bread is Christ's body, and that it is to be worshipped: that election is for merit. ibid. 9 Their sophisms, that the sick should be anointed: that marriage is a sacrament. That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and john Baptist; but it is unsound. pag. 269. & nota 10 Their sophisms, that there are seven Sacraments: that images must be set up in Churches. That we are justified by charity, and not by faith. ibid. 11 Their sophisms, that men have free will: that Christ delivered the Fathers out of Lambus: that the authority of the Church is above the Scripture. pag. 270 12 Their sophisms, that all things are not written which are necessary to salvation. That men pass through the fire of Purgatory to eternal life. pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes. 2.15. doth not establish traditions. ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15. doth not prove Purgatory. ibid. nota 15 Some sophisms of Campians. ibid. 16 It is no sophism from the commendation of marriage to overthrow the vow of virginity. pag. 272 17 The Prelates have spoken most basely and impiously of marriage, like to the ancient Heretics. pag. 273 18 They prefer virginity before it, without any Scripture, and yet they make it a Sacrament, and virginity none. pag. 272. nota 19 Marriage is honourable in all, and impure in to degree. pag. 273 20 Protestats use no sophism in disputing against merits. ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christ's blood doth merit salvation: that is, that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit salvation. pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proved. ibid. nota. & pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can, nor Adam could merit any thing. ibid. nota 24 Protestants use no sophism in disputing against worship of Saints. ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed unto. 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in far distant places at once. 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary. ibid. 28 Protestants use no sophism in disputing against the Mass and Purgatory. 277 29 Neither Mass nor Purgatory is to be found in the scripture▪ neither the names nor the things are there. ibid. 30 In the Supper th●re was no sacrifice, neither now can be; nor unbloody sacrifice. 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kind of men. 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospel, but that which is common to all to offer. 280 33 The Church hath lawful power to choose her Ministers. 280: nota 34 The Papists choice of meat, and their set days of fasting, are ridiculous and superstitious. 281 35 The examples of Elisha, Daniel, and john Baptist, will not warrant Popish fasts. 282. nota 36 S. Paul reproved the Galathians for observing days and times, because they accounted it necessary to salvation: as Papists do now teach. 282. & nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23. and differ from the old Christian fast. ibid. 38 Ae●●●s was not condemned of the Church as an heretic for judging of fasting, as Protestants do. 283. nota 39 Ancient Christians fasted voluntarily, not by canon or precept. ibid. 40 The word & Sacraments are the true notes of the Church. 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholly the Protestants. 285. & nota 42 Papists prefer the Fathers before the Canonical Scriptures. ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his judgement, things are necessarily proved by the Scripture, but only probably by the Fathers. ibid. The sum of the tenth Answer, touching all manner of Witnesses. 1 It is Campians witless kind of reasoning, when an enumeration of all kind of witnesses, to conclude, all are on his side. 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8. who are taught by Christ, and be holy. 300. & nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad, not in the invisible Catholic Church. ibid. nota 4 No jesuite nor any Papist can be in heaven, because they have the mark of the beast. 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heaven▪ but never a Pope. ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side▪ because he taught, that a Bishop was above a King; for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop. Yet the King above him in commanding him to do them, and in punishing him if he neglect them. 301.302 7 Protestants receive Traditions, so long as they agree with the writings of the Apostles. ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus revived, nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent. ibid. & nota 303 9 The decretal epistles of the Pope were not framed by them, but by their parasites. ibid. 10 I●enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome, but while there was succession of truth with it. ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keep Easter after the manner of the Roman Church, but the Council of Nice prevailed more. ibid. & nota 12 The Church of Smyrna never gathered the bones of Polycarpe for relics, but to bury them. 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could never abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Africa did hold. ibid. & nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side, then on the Protestants, because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate divine service. ibid. 15 Helen● i●●he found the Cross, yet she worshipped it not, as P●p●●t● do a●d th●t with ●a●r●a. 305. nota 16 Mon●●● desired not to be sacrificed for at the M●●●e for remission of sin, but to be remembered as the patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles were; to show she was of the communion of Saints. ibid. & 306. & nota 17 Prayer for the dead rose not from the scriptures, but from the excessive love of the living to the dead. ibid. 18 Augustine never prayed for his mother, as thinking her to be in Purgatory. ibid. 19 The ancient Fathers are to be judged of, not by one particular judgement, but by their constant opinion. ibid. 20 The Monks of Popery much unlike the Monks of ancient time. 307 21 Satyrus challenged by Campian for this, because he could swim. ibid. 22 The Schoolmen differ often in matter of faith. 308. nota 23 Papists and the jesuits live as if there were no heaven. ibi. 24 The doctrine of Papists is such as whosoever holdeth, it wholly cannot reign with Christ. 309 25 Antichrist of Rome hath enlarged hell more than all tyrants and heretics. ibid. 26 The cause why Christians resorted so much to jerusalem after Christ's death. 310 27 Superstitious pilgrimages are contrary to the word, and condemned by Gregory Nyssen, and Bernard. ibid. nota 28 The cause why the jews hate Christians is the Gospel, not the spoiling of them of their priesthood and kingdom which was done by heathenish Tyrants. ibid. nota 29 The Papists great friends to the jews, allowing them toleration. 311 30 Papists are not the offspring of the Fathers. 312 31 Lights were used by Christians only when they were forced to meet in the night, and after without any ground of scripture custom brought them to be lighted at noon day. 312. & nota 32 The church of Rome was once poor, when it had wooden Chalices, and golden Priests. But V●bane the Pope made all the ministering dishes of silver. 313. nota 33 Constantine quieted the troubles of the church of Rome, and since his time as s●e hath increased in wealth, so she hath decreased in piety. ibid. 34 Constantine was not baptized by Sylvester Bishop of Rome, who was dead long before his baptism. 314 35 Constantine used the cross in his arms and banners, but never worshipped it. ibid. 36 Constantine had not the lowest place in the Council of Nice, but the chiefest. ibid. 37 The Turk never less prevailed than since Luther's time. 315 38 The Pope and his dealings did much enlarge the Turks by dividing the Empire. ibid. 39 The Turks are greater enemies to the Greek Church then to the Latin. 316 40 Simon Magus denied all free-will unto men, which Protestants do not, neither did Caluine. ibid. & nota 41 Protestants are far from that error of the Novatians touching the repentance of those who are fallen. ibid. 42 They are far different from the Manichees in the matter of Baptism. 317 43 The church of Rome for a long time was more excellent than the rest, and so accounted: yet for all that, it never had, neither in that respect ought to have dominion over the rest. 318. & nota 44 Augustine and the Council of Carthage forbade that the Bishop of the chief sea should not be called Prince of Priests. ibid. And to it the Bishop of Rome submitted himself for a time. 319. & nota 45 The Greek Church is opposite to the Roman Church, and hath her bishoply succession. ibid. 46 The Papists have not overthrown the idols of the heathen, but filled the world full of their idols. 321 47 The jesuits have divided Christ, and have no propriety in the name of jesus. ibid. & nota 48 Luther preached the true Christ, the papists neither have him, nor preach him. 322 49 Brittany received t●e faith many ages before August. the Monk came, who brought more evil than good with him. ibid. The end of the Contents. TO THE MOST LEARNED UNIVERSITY MEN, FLOURISHING BOTH AT OXFORD AND Cambridge, Edmond Campian sendeth greeting. WHen I returned (most worthy men) into this Island, a year ago, upon commandment of my superiors, according to the order of that Religion, which I profess; I found storms far more dangerous on the English coasts, than those were which I had lately escaped on the Britain Ocean. But when I had gone further into England, I saw nothing more usual, then unusual punishments, nothing more certain than uncertain dangers. Then I plucks up my heart, as well as I could, calling to mind the goodness of my cause, and not forgetting the troubles of these times. And lest peradventure I should be caught before that any man heard what I had to say; forthwith I writ down my determination, why I came, what I sought for, what manner of war, and against whom I purposed to proclaim it. The first draft of my writing, I kept still about me, that if I were apprehended it might be found with me. A copy thereof I left in keeping with a friend of mine, which unawares truly to me, was showed to many other men, and by them copied out. The Adversaries took the schedule, being published, in ill part, most spitefully reprehending both all the rest, as also this, that I alone in this matter of Religion, had made the challenge to all. Although in very deed, I alone would not have entered the list; if with licence of her Majesty, and safe conduct these disputations had been granted: Hanmer and Charke, have made answer to my challenge: what I pray you? though it were long before? To no purpose at all, for they shall give no answer honestly but one, which I fear they will never give, to wit: We accept of your answer, The Queen's Majesty hath given her word, that you shall come and go safe: make haste hitherward. In the mean while they are full of their exclamations: Fie upon thy society, out upon thy seditions, art thou not ashamed of thine arrogancy, thou art a Traitor, doubtless thou art a Traitor: foolishly said of them: Why do those men, not the unaduisedst of all the rest, so lavishly lose their labour and cost of pen ink and paper? But there is of late a little book very plain, set forth for these two men to peruse (the former of which for his pleasure and recreation took my said paper in hand, to confute the same: the other more maliciously hudleth up the whole matter) which so far forth as was expedient, entreats both of our society, and of these men's injuries, and of the charge which I have undertaken. There remaineth only for me (for as I perceive, our Bishops provide scourges, and not Schools) that I might render an account of my said fact, evidently to show, and as it were with my finger to point out unto you the chief Chapters and fountains of the things, that breed in me such confidence. And withal to exhort you, who especially above all others have to do herein, that you will look unto this charge, with such careful diligence, as Christ, the Church, the Commonwealth, and the salvation of your own souls do require at your hands. If I upon the affiance of my wit, learning, art, reading, or memory, have thus challenged the best learned of the Adversaries, I was in so doing most vainglorious, and proud above measure, for that I considered neither them, nor myself more deeply. But if upon considerations of the cause, I thought myself able enough to prove that this sun shineth now at Midday, you must bear with this my fervent zeal, which the honour of jesus Christ my King, and invincible truth, have urged me unto. Ye know that Marcus Tullius in his oration for Quintius, when Roscius warranted him that he should get the better, if he could prove that it was not possible for a man to travail 700. miles within two days space, was not only nothing afraid of the force and strength of that famous Orator Hortensius, but also cared nothing for Philippus, Cotta, Antonius, or Crassus, who were Orators far more excellent than Hortensius was. And were (as he judged) the principal Orators of his time. There is undoubtedly a truth in all matters, so apparent and evident, that neither any juggling tricks, or enchanting words can darken the beams thereof. But that which I intent to prove is much more plain, than was that supposition of Roscius: for if I shall prove this, that there is a heaven, a God, a faith, a Christ, I have gotten the victory. Should I not in this cause then be courageous? Truly well may I be killed, but overcome I cannot be: for I depend upon those Doctors, whom that holy spirit hath instructed, which can neither be deceived nor overcome. I beseech you, have a care of your soul's health: of whom I shall obtain this, I expect the rest assuredly. Let this be your only care and cogitation: First to give yourselves to earnest prayer, then diligently to study also: and ye shall find out the very depth of the matter, and that the Adversaries are in despair; and that we being so surely grounded, have good cause, cheerfully and courageously, to look and long after these disputations. I am the shorter in this preface, because that all the Treatise following appertaineth properly to you. Far you well. AN ANSWER TO CAMPIANS EPISTLE WRITTEN TO THE STUDENTS OF THE two famous Universities, Oxford and Cambridge. A Year ago, you writ, it fell out, That according to the order of the religion which you profess, upon the commandment of your Superiors, you returned into this Island. Whether, Campian, you came willingly and of your own accord; or of a certain necessity by the order of your profession and jesuitical sect, you were compelled to return into England (whence some years ago you departed) I will not be inquisitive of, because it is not much for the purpose we have in hand: It had been far more glorious for you, and more befitting the person you made show to be, not to have crept in obscurely and by stealth, but to have returned with credit and authority. But who is he that had power to send you an Embassage into a foreign country, or what necessity lay upon you to obey his commandment, who had no authority to enjoin you a journey, whither you were unwilling to go? If that Spanish Soldier, the first Author of your jesuitical society, were now alive and should enjoin you to set your country on fire; would you obey him? I am sure you would say, he would never command so foul a fact. And yet he might better command and you execute that, than this thing for which you profess you are now come hither. For whether, I pray you, may we deem less, to set houses on fire, then to divert the minds of people from true Religion, to trouble the peace of a Commonwealth, to estrange the minds of loyal Subjects from their lawful Prince, and to turn all things topsy-turvy; which yet was the end of your coming, and the order of your profession required no less at your hands? But let us hear how you go about your Embassage: when, say you, I had gone further into England I saw nothing more usual than unusual punishments. But Campian, what be they? Do you eftsoones so slander the mild government of gracious Elizabeth, & accuse it of cruelty, (England never enjoying a more merciful Prince) that you affirm you find nothing so common as unusual punishments? But what new kind of torture have you seen in England since you came into it? Or which of your men can you name who hath been condemned & put to death for Religion, not only since you came into England, but for these 23. years, the whole time that good Elizabeth hath swayed the Sceptre of this kingdom? It is true indeed that some few have been punished who jump with you in opinion and Religion; but they died not for religion, but were by open judgement of law convicted of Treason. There was of late executed one Euerard a Priest, sent from the College at Rheims into England. Who though he was in danger to the Laws many ways, yet might have had his life, but that impudently at the bar he uttered things shameful, vile, and intolerable; For he boasted himself both to be the subject and Vassal of the Pope, even in England, and affirmed that the Pope was no less the head of the Church of England, then of the Church of Rome. Avouching further that he was verily persuaded, that the Pope did not err when he termed Queen Elizabeth an Heretic, and the Patron of Heretics, and denounced her no lawful Queen. Euerard was for this confession convicted and condemned, who afterwards (as if this had not been enough) in prison professed plainly and directly in the presence and hearing of Sixteen men of credit; That it was no sin against God to commit treason against his Prince. Yet for all this he suffered no new and unusual punishment, but the same that all Traitors suffer among us in the like case. But who are you and what is your religion, that you so boldly object cruelty unto us? Hear me this one thing, Campian, and deny it if you can. It is not long since more of our brethren were condemned by you at one Session, executed in one day, consumed in one fire, than you can recount to me have yet been put to death for the Pope's cause at any time, or by any kind of death, in the whole happy reign of Queen Elizabeth. Do but call to mind, Campian, the rare cruelty, the exquisite tortures, the frequent Martyrdom of former times: and if there be in you any spark of humanity, you cannot choose but confess that your side hath been extreme cruel, and we sufficiently provoked to severity against you, and to have repaid you with the like. For what times I pray you can afford us such and so many butcheries of men, as was to be seen when you were Lords over us, and which are yet fresh in memory? Tell us what sex or age you spared, and did not bloody execute all without difference and distinction of learned or unlearned, male or female, old or young, Children, Virgins, Married, Clergy and laity, Bishops, Archbishops escaped not your hands? The Martyrs you did beat with rods, their tongues you pulled out of their mouths, their hands you burned off with Torches, you tormented, crucified, hanged and beheaded them, you burned them alive, and toasted them at a soft fire, yea the Infant leaping out of the mother's belly you received upon the spears point and cast it into the flaming fire. To conclude, whatsoever barbarous cruelty could invent, that you were not wanting to put in execution against them. And if your cruelty had ended with the living, and had terminated in their deaths, it had been less; but so raging was your tyranny, that you took up the bodies of Saints interred in the earth, you arraigned them upon a day, accused them at a bar, condemned them to death, and burned them at a stake; even exceeding those old tyrants in fury, and cruelty. Can you name any one such savage fact amongst us? or what was he that was put to death amongst us, whom every good man that heard of him judged not worthy of death threefold more than life? Wherefore Campian acknowledge your own cruelty, and accuse not ours, which if it were as great as you would make men believe, yea if any at all, you would not have so easily and speedily obeyed your Principal, commanding your return hither. But proceed to tell us after your coming what you did: lest peradventure (say you) I should have been caught before that any man heard what I had to say, forthwith I writ down my determination and purpose why I came, what I sought for, what manner of war, and against whom I purposed to proclaim it. The end then of your coming was to proclaim war against us. But neither he that sent you was an enemy for any just cause on our parts, neither have you duly performed an Herald's office: for you no sooner set your foot upon English ground, but you hid yourself in corners, that we could enjoy no sight of you. If this be to discharge your commission, judge you. Believe me, this so timorous and foolish proclaiming of war, made little for your honesty, or the honour of your holy Father that sent you. The first draft of writing (say you) I kept still about me, that if I were apprehended, it might be found with me. A copy thereof I left in keeping with a friend of mine, which unawares truly to me was showed unto many other men, and by them copied out. How true this Narration of yours is, let others conceive as they list, for my part I give no credit at all to it. For if you came, as you say, to proclaim war against us, shall we think those letters of defiance were published without and against your privity? Besides your letters of challenge which your favourites spread abroad, were so clearly written, that they foretold not of an enemy coming on, but pointed at him as already come, and ready to pray upon us; so that after I saw your glorious and marvelous challenge, I made full account to see you shortly after in the midst of our Universities, either Oxford or Cambridge. But why did you set down your determination in writing, except your purpose were to publish it? you say: that it might be found with you, if you were taken. What is that we hear from you, Campian? came you to lurk in holes, and to betake yourself to your hercules, or came you to dispute? I find no truth in your words, nor likelihood of truth in this tale; I would I could find you had either judgement or memory. Hanmer and Charke, say you, have answered my challenge: verily these two worthy men, now named, have so entertained your most vain and more than intolerable bragging schedule and Libel, as it well deserved, and have passing well abated your jesuitical and childish triumph. But why I pray you, have you slipped over that answer of learned M. Charke, and made no reply to it? you refute all they bring against you in one word, saying. All that they allege is to no purpose at all. An answer soon made, and not unsuitable to Campians carriage. but tell us why? for say you, they can make no answer to the purpose, but this: we accept your offers, her Majesty hath promised safe conduct; come let us confer; how childish is it to expect such an answer; which if they should promise, it is not in their power to perform. Though Campian, persuade yourself, if this liberty were granted us, it should be as acceptable to us in deed, as it is to you in show. If her excellent Majesty and her wise Counsel did think it fit, and for common peace that public disputation should be held about Religion, are you so silly to think you should have none to encounter with you, or you should carry the day without blow or bloodshed? I am not comparable to Charke, Hanmer, nor infinite others, who are either professors in the University, or have a charge in the Church, yet I should not think myself fit to live, if I feared to buckle in any controversy with you: for if you be the man, Campian, whom we here some weeks passed in a great concourse, discoursing what you could, and disputing your best, I see not any cause, why any one of us should fear to join with such an Adversary in any controversy. For how did you acquit yourself that day? you were dealt withal by our men in some parts of your pamphlet, wherein it is likely you could easily give every man satisfaction and least you should complain you were injured, if any new thing had been propounded to you. And whereas in the entrance you bitterly inveighed against Luther, & writ that in some desperate mood he called the Epistle of james a swelling, barren, contentious, & strawen Epistle. The book was brought you, where you feigned such things were written, and you were willed to show the place; when you saw you were taken tardy, you would feign have put off the imputation of a slanderer, and invented a shift, worth all men's observation; for, say you, the preface where it was, is purged of it, and yet it is very manifest, that there was never one word changed in it. At last you made this answer, which made all men laugh exceedingly, and indeed it was very ridiculous; that you would send to the Emperor and to the Duke of Bavaria, who should certify her Majesty, that Luther had written such things. But yet in another book of his, you think you have gotten some matter of triumph. For Luther in his book written of the captivity of Babylon, hath this saying, that many with great probability avouch, This Epistle to be none of S. james, nor to be answerable to the spirit of an Apostle: here you cry out, oh horrible blasphemy? Answer was made you, that Luther did not say it himself, but brought others in, probably affirming it. Do you suppose there is no difference betwixt these two? yet you still urged the point, and clamorously objected blasphemy: Eusebius was showed you, who in plain words calleth this Epistle corrupt, and counterfeit; and with this you were put to silence, and had not to answer: only that you might probably in show convince Luther of blasphemy, you demanded of our men their judgement of this Epistle. They clearly answered that they accounted this Epistle of S. james, as all other the Epistles and books of the new Testament, to be Canonical. Affirming that all our Churches were of the same judgement. And from this you would conclude, that Luther therefore was blasphemous, because he had written that some probably called the authority of this Epistle into question. To this our men replied, the consequence was nought, from our reverent opinion of this Epistle, to infer, that whosoever made any question of it, did blaspheme. And here you plainly yielded; For when you boasted of two other reasons that you had, you produced none at all. After this you came to the old Testament, where you accuse us to have razed many books out of the true Canon. The testimony of Antiquity was laid before you, whence it was clear that those books were not Canonical. Hear you preferred the late Counsels and Fathers before the ancient, which may not be permitted you. And you set Austin in opposition against Hierom, when it had been fit you would have reconciled them. Augustine, he affirms these books to be Canonical, Hierome denies them, yea expressly, plainly, and evidently. For Augustine our men answered, that he used the word Canonical doubtfully, or in divers signification. And that they showed plainly out of Augustine's own words, and Cardinal Caietans. Augustine you shifted off, and Caietan you audaciously reproached, affirming that the Cardinal lost all his grace and elegancy, when he once began to Comment upon the Scriptures. At length, Campian, you were forced even in Gratian, not without blushing, to acknowledge this ambiguity of the word. And whereas you could not be ignorant of ancient records, it was a wonder to our men to see you write, that we had of a sudden razed out these books. Surely this word escaped you very unlearnedly and inconsiderately; we have store both of ancient witnesses, and of others succeeding them, who will and can free us from such imputation of Novelty. To pass by Origen and Eusebius, Cyprian, or whosoever he was that writ the exposition of the Creed, we find among his works after he had reckoned up all the Canonical books of the old and new Testament, he addeth: These are those books which the Fathers have included in the Canon, Cyprian. in expos. Symbo. where they would that all the grounds of our faith, should have their foundation. Yet we must know that there are other books which were not called of our predecessors Canonical, but Ecclesiastical, as the book of Wisdom, said to be Salomons, and another book of Wisdom, said to be Syrackes. Of the same rank, is the little book of Toby, and judith, and the books of the Machabies. To him I will add another, later in time, and yet he writ 400. years ago. Hugo de sancto victore, a very learned man, and famous in his time. If you have not read, what he hath written in this kind, read it; if you have read it, remember it, with me: after he had reckoned up by name the Canonical books of the old Testament, in the end he thus writeth. There are beside in the old Testament, Hugo de Sanct. victore in prologo pomi. lib. de Sacram. cap. 7. certain other books, which indeed we read, but are not written in the corpses of the text, or in the authentic Canon. As the book of Toby, and judith, and Maccabees, and the book called the Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus. I omit others, and many which I could produce in this kind, and that of all ages, out of which the constant judgement of the Church touching these books may be discerned. Which being so, doth it become you Campian, to be so injurious unto us, so boldly to affirm that we have lately crossed out those books out of the Canon? or which of us will be afraid of you trifling so childishly? please not yourself too much with your wit, neither abuse the gifts and parts, which you have gotten by nature or industry, to defend falsehood, and to uphold the kingdom of Antichrist. Lay your hand upon your heart, and know yourself well, and cease from that arrogancy, with which your vain sect hath puffed you up, leave off your lying, shake off that jesuitical light be haviour of yours. And as Augustine persuaded Hierome, take to you the gravity of a Christian, and make recantation. For it is no dishonour to recant an error, but to persist in it. But let us again come to your preface. There remaineth only for me, say you, an account to be given of my fact, and evidently to show, and as it were with the finger to point at those Chapters and fountains, which breed in me such confidence. But we Campian, can see no cause at all, why you should promise so great things of yourself, or so trust in those fountains, which are as vain as may be, and light as water; for these your ten heads, which have made you so heady and bold, are so many guilded lies, upon which if you rely, your case is far more lamentable, then of those jews whom the Prophet jeremy reproves: Trust not in lying words, Jer. 7.4. saying, The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord. And what is your Evensong but this, or that which is far more foolish and desperate? But you say, You are able enough to prove that this Sun shineth now at midday. Your sufficiency all men may see. You are as well able, Campian, to turn the day into night, and to pull the Sun out of the heavens, as defend these heads. Those unusual boastings and promises so usual with you, argue a mind proud and swelling with arrogancy, and not endued with sound knowledge and learning. The emptier the vessels be, the louder they sound. What insolency I pray you made you add that of Roscius Supposition? as if the things you defend, were as manifestly true as it is impossible any man should run 700. miles in two days. I am ashamed, Campian, to see how vain you be, and full of boasting and arrogancy. What, dare you undertake to convince all the most famous and excellent Churches of the world of error, as directly and plainly, as it is impossible for a man to walk 700. miles in two days? If Campian, you can compass the world in three days, if you can outgo the Sun, if touch the heavens with your fingers, if number the stars, if drink up the sea, you may demonstrate the truth of your cause to which you are so devoted. But if those things surpass your strength, then shall you never make this good; no though the whole knot of jesuits join with you. Now whereas you entreat us to have a care of our soul's health, we take in good part your desire and endeavour of our salvation. And indeed we ourselves do give all diligence we can to attain true saving health: to which seeing there is but one way, and that plainly laid down in the Scriptures: we again beseech you, that renouncing all human inventions, and forsaking those innumerable fictions of Popery, whereto for these few years past you have been addicted, you would also with us labour for that eternal salvation, which the Scripture hath propounded to all Christians, and to as many as are desirous of eternal life. For what profiteth it to wish for salvation, and miserably to err in the search of it? Wherefore Campian, we pray and beseech you to return from these your wander and errors tending to death, into the plain and strait way of salvation. For this know, so long as you remain a jesuite, you neither can be saved, nor indeed can desire it. And here you say you are the briefer, because you will deal with us in a Treatise following. Therefore now let us hear your discourse. REASONS OF CAMPIANS CHALLENGE RENDERED AND GIVEN TO THE Students of the English Universities. EDMUND CAMPIAN. My principal reasons are ten, 1. Holy Scriptures. 2. True meaning of the holy Scriptures. 3. Nature of the Church. 4. General Counsels. 5. Fathers. 6. Sure ground of the Fathers. 7. History. 8. Paradoxes of the Adversaries. 9 Sophisms of the Adversaries. 10. All manner of witnesses. The first reason, which is holy Scriptures. WHereas there are many things. which evidently open the adversaries mistrust in the cause, yet nothing so much, as the majesty of God's books, by them most filthily * It is false: for we have corrupted no part of the Bible. corrupted. For they, who after that they have rejected the voices and testimonies of all other witnesses, and are nevertheless, driven to so narrow shifts, that they cannot defend their cause to be good, except they lay violent hands upon the holy Scriptures also, assuredly show themselves to be in great distress, and all other helps failing and fainting, must now try the last and uttermost shift. What cause had the Manachies' to cancel a Aug. lib. 28. contra Faust. cap. 2 & de utilit. cre. c. 3. S. Matthewes Gospel, and the Acts of the Apostles? Desperation: for they were tormented with these books, both because they had denied Christ to be b Matth. 1. borne of a Virgin, and also had falsely affirmed, that then the holy c Act. 2. Ghost came first down from heaven amongst Christians, when their d Manes. Paraclete, that most wicked Persian leapt out. What made the e Jren. lib. 1. cap. 26. Ebionits' to abandon all S. Paul's Epistles? Desperation: for so long as these kept their authority, Circumcision is abolished, which they had brought back again. What enforced f Praefat in Epist. jac. vide etiam lib. de captain. Babyl. & centur. 2. Luther that most wicked Apostata, to call the Epistle of S. james, * This is most false, for Luther greatly approveth of this Epistle, neither ever did he call it a contentious, swelling, barren, or straw Epistle. contentious, proud, barren, rushy, and judge it to be unworthy an Apostolic spirit? Desperation: g jaco. ca 2. For by this Epistle that miserable caitiff affirming our justification to be by faith * This is false: for the place maketh nothing at all against justification by faith only. only, is utterly confuted & confounded what incensed h Bibl. Geneu. Luther's whelps, on a sudden to put out of the * It is false, th●se books were never accounted part of the true Canon. true Canon of Scripture, Tobias, Ecclesiasticus, & the two books of the Macchabees; & in despite of them many other i Of the old Testament. books, unto which they picked the like quarrel? Desperation: for by these heavenly k Tob. 12. Eccles. 15. 1. Macha. 12 1. Machab. 15. Oracles they be expressly convinced, as often as they dispute against the defence of Angels, as often as they dispute against Free-will, as often as they dispute against praying for the dead, as often as they dispute against praying to Saints. Is it so indeed? Is there such frowardness, is there such presumption amongst men? when they had trodden under foot the authority of the Churches, Counsels * Seas, Fathers, Martyrs, Emperors, People, Laws, Universities, Histories, all Monuments of Antiquity & holiness; & had openly proclaimed, that they would have all controversies decided by the written word of God only; would they then have dismembered the very same word, which only remained, by cutting out of the whole body, so many, so good, and so excellent parts thereof. For the Caluinists have cut out of the old Testament l Baruch. Tob. judith. Sapient. Eccles. Macha. d●o. seven whole books, besides certain other small pieces, which I let pass unspoken of The Lutherans likewise have cut off S. james Epist & for spite of it, m Epistol. ad Hebr. Epist Jud. Epist. 2. Pet. Ep. 2 & 3. johannis. it a censent Luth. in praefat. Mag. Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap 4. Kem. in exam. con. Tri. Ses. 4. De doct. chr. lib. 2. cap. 8. Ses. 4. vide Mel. Can. lib. 2. de Loc. Theol. cap. 9.10.11. de praedest. Sanct. cap. 14. five others, which some where else also were once called in question. To these also, do the late Genevans add the book of Hester, & a great part of the third chapter, & all the two last chapters of Daniel, which the Anabaptists their school-fellowes had a little before condemned, & laughed to scorn; But how much more modest lie dealt S. Austin, who making a Catalogue of the books of holy Scriptures, took for his rule neither the Hebrew Alphabet, as the jews do, nor yet his own private spirit, as Heretics use to do; but that spirit wherewith Christ quickeneth the whole body of his Church, which Church being not Lady (as Heretics do cavil) but only keeper of this gage, hath by old * This is false, for the Laodicene Council doth so number the books of the Scriptures as we do, and not as the Council of Trent doth. ancient Counsels, openly challenged this whole and entire treasure of the books of Scripture, which the late Council of Trent also hath embraced? The self-same S. Augustine, entreating particularly of one parcel of Scripture, could not persuade himself, that the book of Wisdom, should by any man's rashness, or secret false suggestion, be thrust out of the Canon of Scripture, which even in his time, by judgement of the Church, process of time, testimony of ancient writers, and instruction of faithful men, had kept his authority, as a sound and Canonical book; what would he say if he were now living upon the earth again, and should see the Lutherans and Caluinists to be Bible makers, who with their sine and smooth style, have razed both the old and new Testament, and put out of the Canon of holy Scriptures, not only the book of Wisdom, but many books more also? so that, that which shall not be uttered out of their shops, must by their brainsick decree be rejected as a thing most rude and loath some. They that are driven to this horrible and detestable shift, though their Arms be blazed never so far abroad, by their own disciples, though they buy and sel● benefices, though in their Sermons, they cry out against Catholics, though they procure them the sword, rack. and gallows, yet are they overcome, nought set by, horrible in men's sight, and quite overthrown. For as much as the taking upon them the authority of Censorors' and sitting as honourable judges, do dash out at their pleasure such holy Scriptures, as they found would not serve their turn; is there any body though never so simple, which can fear these sub●tle sleights of the Adversaries, who, assoon as they should enter within your assemiblie that are learned men, and fly unto such their usual snifts, as it were unto their familiar spirit, should, though not with reproach full words, yet at the least with trampling of your feet be thrust out of your schools? I would demand of them, (for example sake) b● what authority they maim and rob the corpses of the Bible? They answer they do not cut out any true Canonical Scriptures but cull out only such as are not Canonical, that have been forsted into the Bible, and are indeed but counterfeits. Who shall be judge? the * Campian refuseth the holy Ghost as judge. holy Ghost; for this very answer doth o 1. Lib. Inst. cap. 7. Caluin give, thereby to escape the judgement of the Church, by whose authority all spirits are tried; why then do some of you cut off certain books, and others of your crew, allow the same, seeing you all vaunt of the self-same spirit? The Caeluinists spirit alloweth of six Epistles, which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow, and yet both of you (as you say) have the holy spirit. The p Xistus Sen. lib. 7. Anabaptists do call the history of job a fable interlaced with tragical and Comical metres: how know they that? by the spirit that instructeth them. q Praefat. in Cant. Castalio, that lecherous varlet made no more account of that mystical book of Solomon, commonly called Cantica canticorum (which the Catholics do as highly esteem as a Paradise of the soul, as that heavenly food Manna, which was laid up and kept in the tabernacle, and as delicate dainties in Christ) than he did of a * This is falsoe for Castalio in his preface hath no such word. bawdy song, and ribaudous ta●be of a Courtly waiting maid with her lover; where had he this? of the spirit? In the Apocalyps of r Epist. ad Paul. S. john, every little title whereof S. Hierome affirmeth to contain some high and notable mystery; yet nevertheless, these s Praef. in Apoc. severe judges, Luther, Brentius and Kemnitius find I know not what lacking shooting all at this mark, that the book might be defaced, and be of no authority: whom did they ask? the spirit. * This is most false: read the answer to it. Luther upon a prepostorous zeal casteth a bone amongst the g Praefat. in nowm Test. four Evangelists, and preferring S. Paul's Epistles far before the three former Gospels, in the end concludeth, that the one only Gospel of S. john is from henceforth to be taken, for the gay, for the true, and the principal Gospel; as one that as much as in him lay would gladly have made the Apostles also partakers of his brawling in religious matters: who was his Tutor? the spirit. Besides this, that peevish u Ser. de Pharis & Publican. Friar was so malapert, as to endeavour to make * This is false: for Luther never spoke saucily of S. Luke. S. Luke's Gospel to be suspected to be written in a wanton style, because therein good works are often commended unto us: whom hath he consulted with? the spirit. Theodorus Beza was so bold as to reprehend that mystical word taken out of the 22. Chapter x Luc. C. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. of S. Luke, Hic est Calix nowm Testamentum in sanguine meo, qui (calix) pro vobis fundetur: This is the Cup of the new Testament in my blood, which (Cup) shall be shadde for you: as very corrupt and evilly placed there; because this sentence cannot admit any interpretation, but of the * This is false: for by no means can he endure thi● exposition. wine of the Cup changed into the very true blood of Christ: where learned he that? of the spirit. Finally, when every man committeth every thing to his private spirit, they bely the name of the holy Ghost most blasphemously. Do not these fellows which deal thus, bewray themselves, and show what they are? are they not easily confuted? are they not in the assembly of such men, as you of both the Universities be, quickly perceived, and soon repressed: Ought I to fear disputations with these in defence of the Catholic faith, who with much falsehood have handled the very word not of man, but of God himself? Here I pass over such things, as they have depraved in their false translations, though there be intolerable matters wherewith I may well charge them. I am very loath to take away any part of the matter, either from my old College fellow Master Gregory Martin, a man of excellent great knowledge in the three tongues, y Latin Greek and Hebrew. which will handle this matter far more learnedly and copiously than I can; or from some others, which (as I understand) have already undertaken this matter. The matter that I now write of, is far more heinous and horrible. There were lately discovered certain petty Doctors, that upon a drunken pang laid violent hands upon the divine Scriptures, and have condemned them, as corrupted, as maimed, as falsified, as craftily foisted in, in sundry places; some parts thereof they have corrected, some they have razed, and some they have quite pulled out. And lastly they have changed, as the fortress of this authentical writing of Gods own hand, wherewith before it was fenced, unto certain Lutheran spirits, as though it were into vain bulwarks of their own imaginations, or into bare painted walls, lest peradventure they should have been mum for want of matter, when they should stumble at such places of Scripture, as are plain against their heresies. Of which nevertheless, they could no sooner shift their hands, then sup up hot coals or eat hard stones. Then this first reason seemed to me urgent and just, which when it had evidently laid before mine eyes, that the adversaries side was but counterfeited and feeble, truly it encouraged me much, being both a Christian, and also somewhat beaten in this kind of study, in defence of the everlasting King's Charter, to encounter with the remnants of these discomfited enemies. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the first Reason. THat Campian, which made you most cheerful in the cause you have undertaken, and bolder than a jesuite (being newly come out of your den or cabbine where you have lurked these divers years) to proclaim war against us all, and challenge to the combat the most valiant of us; that, you say, was the evident apprehension of our distrust and diffidence in our cause. But what manhood is this for so valorous a man as you make show to be, to provoke and with sharp war to pursue so timorous adversaries, who are ready to betake themselves to their heels, not daring to stand to it, but distrusting their own strength? But tell us in what things our distrust hath been so sensible. There are many things, say you, which evidently bewray the adversaries mistrust in the cause. verily if boldness in oppugning and withstanding Religion were of as great force, as usually it is in making of war, and scaling the enemy's walls, and racing his towns, we might well fear your furious and desperate attempts: for whatsoever could be compassed by rage, fury, and cruelty, that hath not in this combat and contention been wanting. But such weapons cannot dare religion and truth, neither can they displace it. Let it be granted, we have not been so cheerful and ready in the defence of a good cause as we ought, and as the cause itself well deserved, neither have we put to flight your forces so soon as we ought to have vanquished them, yet we never gave ground, we never turned our backs upon you, neither ever fled out of the field. a DUR. You boats much of your valour. but whether think you is he valorous or fearful, who dare not otherwise buckle with his adversary, but upon condition he may forbid him what weapons he list, and choose for himself what he list? Now here is your valour, you forbidden us the weapons of the Church, Counsels, Fathers. You only leave us the weapons of the Scriptures? WH. Pag. 4. He that will overcome in this cause must only use those weapons, which are allowed in this kind of sight. For it is not lawful here, as in war, to take any weapon, by which you can wound your enemy. But weapons must be fetched out of the armory of the Scriptures, and the spirit of God, or else there will be no foiling of an adversary. And this is that which the Scriptures do warrant; and Constantine commanded the Fathers of the Nicene Council to use against the Arrians, and to end controversies; the books of the Evangelists and Apostles, and the oracles of the old Prophets. Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 6. And the like teacheth Hilary de Trinit. lib. 7. August. Epist. 3. and contr. litter. Petil. Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. and in divers other places. Why do you then repove this thing in us? Tell me, whose cause think you is best? whether ours, who are content with the Scriptures alone, and being armed with them can defend our own, and refel others; or yours, which in no case can be safe, if the cause must be tried by the Scripture only. Therefore at the fi●st you are forced to confess that you must come into the field unarmed and naked, if no weapons will be afforded you beside the Scriptures. For tell us Campian if you can, and remember the bypassed times. Did we ever cunningly avoid any disputation? did we ever refuse any combat? did we ever shift off any of your offers and challenges? But how often have we publicly entered the combat with you? how often have we refuted your oft iterated Sophistications? what writing of yours is yet unanswered by us? or what course of disputation have we not yielded to? Are not all those disputations held at Wittenberg, Ratesbone, Augusta, Spire, Worms, Bearne, Possia, London, Cambridge, Oxford, most plentiful and pregnant witnesses, with what spirits, with what learning, with what truth we defended our Religion? what show or sign of fear, or diffidence found you amongst us? nay rather how true and singular confidence did there appear in us? you it is, and not we, when it comes to a trial indeed that gins to sweat, change countenance, tremble every joint of you, and bewray your deep distrust and the naughtiness of your cause. Wherefore, Campian, take it from me, if you think our distrustfulness will help you any thing, you much deceive yourself, for if we have with courage stood against your predecessors so far surpassing you, we will not yield a hair to you? nor fear your manner of conflict, being so childish in the judgement of all men. But this diffidence, you so cast in our dish, tell us what it is, and how it appears so clearly, Forsooth we distrust our hold in the Scriptures, and the majesty of God's books we have most filthily corrupted. This indeed is a very great crimination you object to us, and an undoubted proof of our distrust: for they who are not able to maintain the Religion they profess, unless they lay violent hands upon the Scriptures, and impeach the sacred authority of those heavenly books, the cause on their side must be very nought and desperate indeed. Therefore I grant unto you, that it was very fearful desperation, which made the Manachies' renounce the old Testament wholly, and cancel part of the new: the same also made Ebion reject all Paul's Epistles, and other heretics to do so too: for there was nothing fitter for them to uphold those their monstrous opinions, then by denying those books of holy Scripture. But I pray you Campian, let us see how these things make for your purpose: or what it is wherein we are so like those forenamed Heretics. Me thinks it little beseemeth your learning and eloquence, to slander us, and to pin upon our sleeves such odious crimes of ancient heretics so undeservedly. If we have shaken hands with the Manachees, if with the Ebionits', tell us wherein? But if we are culpable of no such thing, the Lord shall judge your outrageous and bold slanders, and maintain our uprightness and innocency. For who ever thought and spoke more honourably, reverently and with more due regard of the Scriptures than we? who have received and embraced all Scripture given by inspiration, as the very voice of God himself; holding it for the only mystery of our faith and religion, and so resting in it, as that we desire no other help as necessary to salvation? which if we had not with more diligence and devotion defended, than you ever did, long ere this the glory of it had perished, and it had been counted as a dead letter: For what have we done for these many years with more endeavour and diligence, then maintain the majesty and excellency of the Scriptures, which you have so unworthily violated? And yet you blush not to match us with the Manachees and Ebionits', who have violently laid most impure and villainous hands upon those sacred books. But, say you, Luther that most wicked Apostata, called the Epistle of S. james a contentious, swelling, barren and strawen Epistle, and judged it unworthy the spirit of an Apostle: still the fat would be in the fire, Campian, if you had not one fit of railing at Luther, for this is to show yourself a right jesuite, as indeed you are, shamelessly and audaciously to break out into railing, and specially to tear Luther with most bitter reproaches. This is your faculty and profession, this you have undertaken to do, whatsoever you● leave undone: surely he is an happy man, whom the Lord thus honoureth with the enmity and hatred of such wicked men: for he cannot choose but be an excellent man, whom wicked men do so deadly pursue. But you object against Luther his Apostasy: look to yourself Campian, if you may not be more justly accused of this crime: for doubtless you are either an Apostata, or you were a cunning hypocrite. But if it be Apostasy to forsake Apostates, than was Luther such an Apostata. For he abandoned thieves, heretics, Apostates, and separated himself from that Curch, in which that daily Apostasy from religion, 2. Thess. 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell, was now come to the height: they then who would not be Apostates must fly from the Apostasy of your Church. But say you, Luther spoke not so reverently of the Epistle of S. james as was fitting: It is well all you can challenge him with, is touching this Epistle only: he never did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, neither the Epistles of Saint Paul, or Saint Peter; only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint james. Is Luther alone in this crime? hath all Antiquity received this Epistle of S. james, & Luther only rejected it? undoubtedly, no: neither was Luther ignorant what censure the ancient Church gave of this Epistle: * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius adventured to write expressly of this Epistle thus. b DUR. But Eusebius only saith, that this Epistle was thought of divers, not to be written by S. james; and denies not the canonical authority of it. For after he saith: It was received of many Churches. WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrist both the words and sense of Eusebius: for he allegeth not other men's opinions, but his own direct judgement. But if we admit that you say, it must the rather be counterfeit; for if Saint james did not write it, and yet he calleth himself James the servant of God, and of our Lord jesus Christ: must it not be forced? ●aue the penmen of the Scripture used to take other men's names unto them? If you deny it to be written by Saint James, you must needs confess it to be Apocrypha: and so after your sense, Eusebius hath rejected this Epistle; which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appear. And that he saith many Churches receive it, and not all; must needs prove that he thought it was not Canonical. Be it known to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint james, is counterfeit: what can be written more plainly? it may be you will except against Eusebius. But tell us why? therefore not to stand with you, Hieronym. in Catalogo. will you hear what Hierome saith, who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome? The Epistle of james is held to have been published under his name by some other. The one saith it is counterfeit, the other writeth, that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle, but by some other. Why then are you angry with Luther, whom you see not unadvisedly and rashly to doubt of the authority of that Epistle, but therein followeth the judgement and censure of the ancient Church? for from hence it is very clear, c DUR. Doth he therefore doubt of the authority of this book; what shall we then say to Caluin, who hath plainly denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues was written by Saint Paul? and if you had not been a deceiver, you would have alleged Hierome wholly: for it followeth. Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authority. WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith, It is thus held, and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspicion, showeth he not himself also doubtful of it? Caluin had some reason, because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul, as this was of Saint james. What comparison is there in these two? the Epistle of Saint james hath his name in the beginning of it, as the author of it; so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul: so that he that denies that to be written by Saint james, must needs make it counterfeit. But no such thing here. Therefore may this be held to be canonical, though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul. If you had read but a few lines more, you should find that I used no deceit, neither had you caus● to be so bitter. And these words of Hierome prove directly, that the authority of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of. that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authority of this Epistle. But you will say, it was afterwards received, and Hierome witnesseth as much. I inquire not how justly that might be received in a succeeding age, which once was rejected, that the credit and authority it had not in the beginning, it might gain in time by men's calmness in judging: neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle. Let it be as great as ever any book had; we verily receive it, and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures; for whatsoever Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle, or lessen the credit of it any way; yet all our Churches willingly embrace it, and judge it written by the Apostle, or some Apostolic man; and in it do undoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle. * Caluin. in argument. in Epist. jacob. I, saith Caluin, willingly and without controversy receive this Epistle, because I see no just cause to reject it. Therefore object no longer unto us other men's sharp censures and hard speeches, whereof we are no ways guilty: for what is it to us, what other men think of this Epistle, who dispraise no part of it, neither detract any thing from the authority thereof? But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing, which you make mention of? let us see the place, that we may perceive how faithfully you deal. You tell us of a Preface he writ upon the Epistle of S. james, such as I think few men know: for it is no where to be found amongst Luther's works: yet by accident I light upon that preface, and read it from the beginning to the ending, in which not any of those things is to be seen which you mention: so that we may easily conjecture what we are like to find of you in the sequel, when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lie so palpably. For Luther gins his preface thus. The Epistle of S. james though rejected of Antiquity, I much commend & hold very fitting & profitable. And in this book of the Babylonish captivity, he thus writeth of this Epistle. I pass over that which many probably affirm, that this was not the Epistle of S. james the Apostle, nor agreeing with the spirit of an Apostle. These things very gravely and modestly hath Luther written concerning this Epistle of S. james; d DUR. If you had seen the copy printed at Jena you should see that Luther thus speaketh of this Epistle. WHIT. p. 22. I acknowledge that Luther in a most ancient preface published by himself at Wittenberg 1525. called it a strawen Epistle in comparison of the Epistles of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, but find not that, you affirm any where. & never culled it as you affirm, a contentious, barren, swelling, or a strawen Epistle: though I deny not but Luther was of that opinion, that he greatly called in question the Author and Argument of this Epistle. And it had been your part, who condemn his opinion, to have confuted his reasons. Erasmus evidently writeth, that this Epistle hath no taste of Apostolic authority; so that Luther judged more tolerably of this Epistle, than Erasmus. But howsoever the case stand, Luther in his judgement is not without the consent of the e DUR. If he agreed with the first and purest Churches: you differing from him, do dissent from them. WHIT. I call them the purest Churches, not for their sincere judgement of this Epistle, but for that they flourished in the best and purest times. first and purest Churches. And yet to let Luther pass, we have no other opinion of this Epistle, than yourselves have, and honour it as much, as you think it deserves. And let me promise and enough this for us all; whatsoever in this combat, which you have undertaken, you prove out of this Epistle, we will most willingly embrace, and not shift it off, as you suspect we will. All the sentences of this Epistle, we allow of, and reject not any one. For as for that instance, which you give of sole faith, it is but a silly and lame trick of your sophistry; our doctrine of justification by faith only is most true & holy; which S. Paul also clearly teacheth, though he do not f DUR. Saint Paul never in plain words hath affirmed our justification by faith only. WHIT. pag. 27. When S. Paul saith we are justified by faith, it is as much as by faith alone, because faith respects only mercy, and withal excludeth works: Rom. 3.28 & cap. 4.5.6. & cap. 3.20. Gal. 2.16. and lastly he saith we are freely justified by grace: Eph. 2.7.8. Rom. 3.24. than he affirms that faith only doth justify. expressly use these words, Rom. 3.24.28. Faith alone. And the ancient do so expound and interpret S. Paul. Ambrose saith; g DUR. Ambrose by his sole faith excludeth only the works of the ceremonial law, and so he speaketh in that place. WHIT. pag. 33. It is enough that he affirmeth that this is S. Paul's position: we are justified by faith only. And when he excludeth only the works of the ceremonial law, in that he is against the judgement of Augustine and Hierome and himself also, in lib. 2. cap. 2. de jacob. & vita beata. They are justified only by faith, it is the gift of God. h DUR. Basil excludes only those works which are wrought by the sole power of free-will. WHIT. pag. 38. Basil excludes not only the works wrought by the power of free-will, but even those which proceed from faith and grace; for he produced S. Paul, and Saint Peter whom he denies to have been justified by works, yet had they both faith and grace. Basil saith; They are justified by faith alone in Christ. i DUR. Nazianzene excludeth only that high knowledge of divine mysteries. WHIT. pag. 41. Nazianzene excludes not only that high knowledge of divine mysteries, but also by it all other works; for seeing it is the most excellent, and so excluding the greatest, he must needs exclude the less. Nazianzene saith; Righteousness consisteth in faith only. Why should I recite any other sayings of other of the Fathers of the Church? This doctrine is both evangelical and Apostolical; contrary to this, if james or an Angel from heaven should preach, let him be held as impious, wicked, and accursed. But you will say S. james denies justification by faith only, yea affirms that we are justified by works. We answer, that the Apostle speaketh of a k DUR. Saint james speaketh not of a feigned faith: for how can be then speak of Abraham's faith? how is it feigned to believe that God is? WHIT. pag. 42. S. james speaks of a feigned faith, as is plain vers. 14. for it is in words only vers. 15.16. it giveth nothing, when relief is required. verse 17. it is without works and dead. vers. 18 only that is true faith, which can be showed by works, here no works vers. 19 It is only such a faith as the devils have: so a feigned and dead fa●th. pag. 44. And Augustine thus expoundeth it, De fide & oper. Cap. 14. & in Psal. 31. in Praefat. and pag 45. Though Abraham's faith was a true faith, because it showed itself by true fruits and true works: that proves not, but their faith is feigned who have no works. Of which Saint james speaketh. pag. 46. faith is not the less feigned and vain, because it believes that God is: seeing Saint james affirmeth the di●els believe as much. feigned dead, idle, and counterfeit faith, which many boasted of, and falsely persuaded themselves they were just by it. This faith, which we may more truly call a carcase of faith, Saint james denieth to be sufficient for salvation to any, and he that is justified he teacheth must be justified by works, that is, must be proved, and declared to be just: for it must needs be, that faith be living, fruitful and accompanied with good works, that all may clearly perceive and discern, you are endued with true faith. And so doth S. james very fitly accord with S. Paul, while he disputes from the effects; when as S. Paul argueth from the cause. The principal & immediate cause of our justification, S. Paul makes faith; S. james writeth that a man is justified by works, that is, every man by his works as by most pregnant testimonies is l DUR. It is ridiculous to think, that Saint james should teach men how to show themselves just, and speak nothing of true justice. WHIT. pag 47. We say not that Saint james teacheth only how a man may obtain the opinion of justice with men, but how he may show and declare himself by certain proofs and arguments to be endued with true justice. And that this place toucheth the declaration of true faith by works, and so the demonstration of our justification, not we, but your own men do so teach. Thomas Aquin. in jacob. 2. Glossa-Ordin. in jacob. known and acknowledged just, while his invisible faith is witnessed and declared by his visible works. Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with, or fear the Epistle of S. james. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles james and Paul, that you may see that we are not broachers of any Novelty. Wherefore, saith m DUR. Augustine maketh nothing for you, but against you. WHIT. pag. 50. Augustin● affirmeth directly that S. james speaketh of a vain and feigned faith, which is as much as we here produce him for. Augustine; Aug. quaes●. 85 quae●t. 76. the judgements of the two Apostles, S. Paul, & S. james, are not contrary each to other, when the one saith a man is justified by faith without works; and the other saith, that it is a vain faith which is without works; because S. Paul speaks of works which go before faith: Saint james of works which follow faith; at S. Paul himself showeth in many places. Therefore the Apostle S. james would not, neither aught to detract any thing from the doctrine of justification, which Luther learned from S. Paul. Yea all Papists and jesuits shall sooner be torn asunder, than this judgement of Luther, touching faith alone, shall either quail or be overthrown. From Luther you turn the edge of your speech to the whelps of Luther: for so you, as an unclean dog, term men famous and flourishing with all good qualities. But why you should so call them, I well conceive not, unless it be, for that they never cease barking against your Bishops and Monks, and other Church robbers, like yourself. But let us hear what heinous thing those whelps have committed. They have on a sudden put out of the true Canon of the Scripture, Tobias, Ecclesiasticus, the two books of the Macchabees, and many other books. Say you of a sudden, Campian? Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the ancient Fathers, that you know not that long ago these books were razed out of the Canon? Look I pray you into Hierome, and out of him call to mind what antiquity hath done. That we may know, saith n DUR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receive these books for Canonical: but denies them not to be Canonical. WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these books were not received of the foregoing Churches for Canonical, but himself o●ten times denies them to be such, and plainly calls them Apoch●ypha books, which he w●uld never have done if the Church then had taken them for Canonical; yea and as Duraeus confesseth, they were not so taken until almost 70● ye●res after Christ. Hierome, Hieron. i● Prologo Galiato. Whatsoever books are more than these, they are to be accounted among the Apochryphas. Therefore Wisdom, which commonly is called the Wisdom of Solomon, and the book of jesus the son of Syrach, and judith, and Tobias, and Pastor, are not in the Canon. Will you that are but a Friar put these books in the Canon, which Hierome following the judgement of the ancient Church, and the truth itself, denieth to be in the Canon? mark well his own words: They are not in the Canon. You say that we have dashed them out; and why should we not so do? For, saith Hierome, they are not in the Canon. Desire you any further testimonies? Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome, who after he had recited divers books, which you say we have put out of the Canon, he thus writeth; as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greek. These books verily are profitable and helpful, Epiphan. in lib. de mensur. & Ponder. but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are received. Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron, neither in the ark of the Covenant. But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things. Hieron. praefat. in lib. Solomon. As therefore the Church readeth the books of judith, Tobias, and Macchabees, but accounteth them not Canonical Scripture: so also these two books (he meaneth Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus) it reads for edification of the common sort, not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church. If, Campian, you be ignorant of these ancient testimonies you are but a young soldier in that kind of fight, where you would be thought a well experienced Captain; but if you know them, you are too unjust and injurious unto us, to object to us, I know not what desporation, because we admit not those books in the Canon of the Scripture, which Antiquity tells us directly, were never admitted, neither are to be admitted: Caietan. in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinal Caietan, fears not to avouch that he that writ the book of the Macchabees, in a certain prophesy of daniel's, was a liar: but the holy Ghost was never wont to be deceived in the interpreting of the Scripture. Now whereas you imagine that we are convinced by those Oracles, as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels, as often as we dispute against free-will, as often as we dispute against praying to Saints: You must fi●st, before you can convince us, prove that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those books, to confirm the doctrine of the Church, which Hierome deemeth, and you shall never be able to prove, though you call all the jesuits to a consultation. And seeing you object desperation to us, see ho● you bewray your own miserable desperation; who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonical Scriptures, but you she to the Apocryphas, whose authority hath been▪ and for ever shall be doubted of in the Church. The Lord hath committed his Will and Wo●d to writing, and commended it to his Church: Those writings with all diligence and piety we receive and reverence; we are content with them, and we maintain thei● sufficiency; let go then these questionable, obscure, and Apochryphas books, and out of these contend with us about religion. But your religion long ago hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture, and hath broken forth into many superstitions. And hence it is that you do the thing, than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable; that is, make of like authority with holy Scripture, not only the Apochryphas books, but every o DUR. Pag. 5●. ●●e do not aff●me Traditions, to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus here denieth it, yet the Council of ●rent doth with the like holy affection and reverence receive and honour them, as it doth the books o● the old and new Testament. See Dec●et. 1. Sess. 4. unwritten. Tradition, wheresoever you come by them, at the second or third hand. But what do I telling you of these things, who shamefully have adventured long since to violate and infringe all the laws, both of God and man? Take this from me: if you can demonstrate that we have condemned or rejected any one book, or any p DUR. Pag. 64. You have razed out these words out of S. john: Every spirit ●hich divideth Christis not of God: ●nd the history of the adulterous woman john 8.3. WHIT. pag. 65. We have not razed it out of the scripture; for it is not to be found in the mo●t ancient Greek copies, but as we read it, 1. joh. 4.3. Cyprian also l. b. 2. cap. 8. testim. contra judaeos so reads it, and Augustine also add Po●●ent. lib. 2. cap. 7. reads bo h. The history of the woman taken in adultery we raze not out: though some of the ancient have done, and Beza though he demurred about it, ve● never dashed it out. part and portion of any book, which appeareth to have been written and confirmed by divine authority, I will never contend any longer, but yield you the day, and give up our weapons to you. But if we have ever most faithfully kept the whole corpses of the Scriptures, and have severed the true books from false, and have defended the heavenly truth of God, and preserved it uncorrupt, why do you poor silly F●ier cry out of our desperation, when yourself is so far plunged in desperation itself, that there is no certainty of your salvation, but by the depravation and corruption of the holy Scriptures? Now in that you affirm we are convinced by those oracles: As often as we dispute of the defence of Angels, of free-will, of praying for the dead, and of praying to Saints: they are thing which we have discussed a thousand times, and have exactly determined them out of the true oracles of God. The defence of Angels is taught us in the Scripture, where we are taught that God hath set his Angels over certain people, Dan. 10. & 12. ●sal. 91.11. places, and men; and of this in general we nothing doubt, but that Angels have that commission from the Lord, that they must provide for men's safety and salvation. So that we deny them not some kind of ministration, yea we attribute as much to them as the Lord hath taught us we should. And as for your q DUR. Denys ●as S Paul's disciple, and he hath manifested such m●●teries. WHIT. pag 68 Why did not S. Paul, who wa● rapt up into the third heaven, and saw such great things, declare unto us the hierarchy of Angels? did he bur●e it in silence, and his disciple tell it abroad? But Denys was not the disciple of S. Paul, as shall in another place be proved. Hierarchy and manifold degrees of Angels, we are willingly ignorant of them, and no whit envy your knowledge, who have had the revelation of such great mysteries from your Denys, who hath (that I may use the words of S. Paul) advanced himself in those things whic he never saw. But it is another patronage of Angels which you defend, and hold that we ought to worship them and call upon them, which the Scripture in plain words forbiddeth, for r DUR. Saint Paul forbids only the offering up of sacrifice to Angels, and making of them new mediators. WHIT pag. 70. S. Paul forbids all worshipping of them, and so prayers, a swell as sacrifice●; they being a part of worship. pag 71. Chrysost. in Coloss. 2. hom. 7. in these words: Occumen. in Coloss. 2. whom you allege, do not interpret them for you, but for our opinion, and as the truth is. S. Paul condemns Worshipping of Angels. Coloss. 2.18. And the Angel once and again called S. john from this kind of worship. s DUR. Saint john did n●t worship the Angel, but took the person of those who held that Angels were to be worshipped with sacrifices, that he being forbidden, they might be reproved in him. WHIT. pag. 72. John did not as you say; for neither offered he any sacrifice●, neither affirmeth he that he dissembled; but saith directly: I fell down to worship before him. You on the contrary say, he fell not down to worship. And your Thomas upon Apoc. 19 saith, S. John intended to worship with Dulia. And upon Apocal. 22. with Latria. See thou dost it not, Apoc. 19.10 & 22 9 Tob. 12. I am thy fellow servant, and one of thy brethren: worship God. As for Raphael in t DUR. The ancient Fathers have cited the book of Toby, a● Irene, Cyprian, H●la. WHIT. pag. 73. Then will it follow: th●t out of what book soever the Fathers have alleged any testimony, it must be of the Canon, & ●o the 3 & 4. books of Esdra; for Augustine, Cyprian, & Ambrose cite them, yet your Church rejecteth them. DUR. Hierome putteth them out of the jewish Canon, not of the Canon of the Church. WHIT. pag. 74. It is strange those Fathers should make them Canonical, when i● Hieromes time long after them, they were not; no they were neither in the Canons of the Church, nor of the jews Canon. Hieron. in Prasat. in lib. Salom. DUR. Your English Synagogues read Toby very much. WHIT. pag. 76. And other Apochryphae●, but accounteth them not in the Canon. Toby, we pass not greatly, neither do acknowledge those seven Angels of whom he speaketh. All that which was spoken of Raphael, or which he speaketh of himself, i● far differing from the holy Scriptures, and it savoureth strongly of superstition. The place of Ecclesiasticus doth not much trouble me, neither should I the sooner believe u DUR. pag. 76. If you de●y free wil● to man by nature; a●d that be cannot but sin, you establish the Fate of the S●●ickes. WHIT. pag. 77. No more, than when we say Angels necessarily do good, and devils ever evil. Again we deny not man's free-will to natural and civil actions, but to the duties of faith; because till the son hath made him free, he must needs be a servant of sin. free will, though he an hundred times should repeat that sentence; Ecclesiast. 15.17. Gen. 6.5. before man is life and death: seeing that the x DUR. The Scripture doth not teach that men have lost free will by nature. WHIT. p. 78. What then meaneth it, 1. Cor. 2.14. If man cannot understand the things of God and eternal life, how can he will them or do them? Phil. 2.13. The will and deed is wrought in us by God. Gen. 6.5. If he can think nothing but evil, where is free will? Scripture teacheth that man lost his freedom by sin: the same thing teach the y DUR. The Fathers do not deny free will. WHIT. pag. 79. August. Enchirid. cap. 30. Ambrose de vocat. gent. cap. 9 Bernard de libr. arb●t. do deny it. Fathers also, and every man's own experience: howsoever these words may be understood of mankind, as he was sometime in Adam. For thus he writeth a little before. Ecelesi●it. 15. vers. 14. He made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel; if he speak of the first condition and state of man, and of his perfect and uncorrupt nature, wherein he was created of the Lord, he speaketh very true: but if he made it now free for us, as we are natural men, to choose or refuse life or death at our own pleasure; I am not so bound by the authority of this book and testimony, but that I may appeal from his Apocryphal sentence to the tried Oracles of God. Now for your book of the z DUR. No Church ever rejected the book of the Macchabees. WHIT. pag. 83. The Church of the jews did wholly: and the Church of the Christians as I have showed before. Yea, Gregory, the great, who was Bishop of Rome, in job. lib. 17. Cap. 16. denies them to be in the Canon. And the Fathers, though they cite them as he did, yet so accounted them for no better. DUR. Augustine placeth them in the Canon. WHIT. pag. 83. Yet Gregory who lived 200. years after him, denies them to be Canonical, besides Augustine so calleth them, because the Church of Christians read them, and did not reject them so as the jew did. August. de civitat. De● lib. 18. cap. 36. & August. count Gauden. lib. 2. cap. 23. further, Duraeus, confesseth that they were neither written by a Prophet, nor confirmed by a Prophet: then certain it is they are not in the Canon. DUR. Christian's must be ruled by the judgement of the Catholic Church. WHIT. pag. 85. The Catholic Church cannot make those books which are not Canonical to be Canonical: beside I have showed, that the Catholic Church doth reject them. Macchabees, I make far less account of it, which Hierome, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Cyprian, have hissed out, and the Leodicene Council hath rejected. Moreover that which is therein spoken of the sacrifice offered up for the sins of the dead, is merely matter of supposal, and forced into the text: for neither in josephus is any such thing to be found in the Greek, neither in josephus the son of Geryon, who yet writ the self-same history in Hebrew, is there any mention of any such sacrifice, neither had the a DUR. The jews Machzor showeth that they do pray and offer sacrifice for the dead. WHIT. pag. 85. I much ●egard not what the jews do now: I affirmed that the old jew had neither precept nor practice for it. jews either by precept, or practise any such custom, to offer sacrifice and prayers for the dead. Lastly in the Greek copy there is that inversion and disordered placing of the words, that you can hardly make any true sense, or any whole sentence hang together. View the place in the Greek text, and if you can fitly translate it so, that all things may hang well together, I will yield, you are a better Grecian then I took you for. Shall I be tied then by the authority and force of this book, place, or sentence, to offer with you prayers and oblations for the dead? you are too too childish, Campian, to think such things can incline the Students of our Universities to like your side: other manner of matter must you bring, and of more force, if you will gain our favourable audience and good conceit: for these things long ago we have distasted and spit out; but who ever said, yourself excepted, that this place of the Macchabees doth prove and confirm invocation of Saints? It is one thing to offer sacrifice for the dead, and another thing to say that the Saints departed make intercession for us. As for judas b DUR. Many things were declared to the Prophets by dreams. WHIT. pag. 87. Must I therefore believe every dream written in the Apochrypha books, as divine oracles? neither did that dream make the Macchabees pray to Onia or Jeremy, but to the Lord only. 2. Mac. 15.21. DUR. The jews thought that Christ had prayed to Eliah, when Matth. 27.47. he said Eli Eli Lamb. etc. therefore praying to Saints was familiar and common with them. WHIT. pag 87. It is plain that the jews said this only to deri●e Christ, whom they thought God had forsaken, and therefore he fled to Eliah for help. dream touching Onia, of which we read 2. Macchab. 15. I pass it over as a dream: but the matter is not great whether you understand the intercession of the dead, or oblations for the dead: both is yours, and both most false. And here again you cry out with great vehemency; Is it true indeed? is there such frowardness, is there such presumption among men? here is neither the one, nor the other, Campian● we have done nothing frowardly; nothing presumptuously: I wonder at your frowardness and presumption, that those books which God disclaims, as none of his, which reverend antiquity hath put out of the Canon; yet you in your horrible & detestable frowardness & presumption, will bring into the Canon, whether God will or no, the holy Fathers denying them, & the books themselves disclaiming it. The Caluinists, say you, have cut off from the body of the old Testament, These are Ba●uch, Tob●as, judith, Su●●ent a. Ec●●ejias●icus. t●●o Macchabees. H●●ron prae f●t. in jer. seven whole books: Why you shameless Friar, did not Hierome a thousand years before Caluin was borne, raze them out? Why then slip you over Hierome, and quarrel with Caluin only, when they are both in one predicament? Hear yet again what Hierome saith. Whatsoever is beside these books, is to be accounted Apocrypha: but these seven books which you reckon up, and calumniously avouch that we have razed them out, are beside those Hierome makes mention of; they are then to be accounted Apochryphas. For most of these we have sufficiently answered. For Baruch, Hierome saith, We neither read it, nor find it in the Hebrew; all the other he casteth out of the Canon, Hieron ad Domnion, & Rogatian. and writeth freely. Those books which are not to be found in the Hebrew, neither are any of the 24. are to be rejected of those, who are of ripe years and knowledge. But you jesuits are alway Children, as the Egyptian Priest answered Solon touching the Grecians. I wonder why you say never a word touching the third and fourth book of Esdra: it may be you are ashamed of them, being books, as Hierome writeth, full of dotages: yet your Church hath had them in great account, and the Fathers often times have alleged testimonies out of them; why do you, Campian, suddenly dash these books out of the Canon? If you judge they must be kept in the Canon, why do you not tax the Caluinists, who, as all men know, have cut them out of the old Testament? Why when you number up all those sacred books, cut out of the Canon by the Caluinists, omit you these altogether? Or if these be Apocrypha, why should we deem the rest to be Canonical? I am not a little desirous to know, what is your judgement of these books: but you say further: Epist. jacob. Ep ad Heb. Epist. Juda. Epist. 2. Pet. Epist. 2. & 3. joan. The Lutherans have cut off Saint▪ james Epistle, and for spite of it, five others, which somewhere else also were once called in question. That these were once and elsewhere in question, you cannot deny. The light and evidence of the story hath wrung this from you. But tell us who made question of them? Did heretics only? Then account Eusebius & Hierome amongst heretics, who have reported to us their own judgement of these Epistles, with the judgement of the Church. Can you prove that they were accounted heretics, in the first and pure ages of the Church, who took out of the Canon these Epistles? For the Epistle of Saint james, I have answered sufficiently: we neither reject that, nor any of the other Epistles, which you falsely accuse the Lutherans to have cut out; this is no favit of ours, whom you know to be far from Lutheranisme: quarrel then with them: as for us, we never cunningly shifted off the testimonies and allegations of those Epistles. Can you in equity require any more of us? At length then forbear to upbraid us with I know not what desperation, frowardness and presumption: we willingly admit, receive, and allow of your own books, which yourself make use of in disputation; to their judgement will we stand, if you can convince us by these you win the field. That which you add of the book of Ester, and of almost three whole chapters of Daniel, is nothing but cavilling. The book of Ester we account Canonical, as much as by God's authority is written in b DUR. As if the Hebrew tongue were the rule of the Canon, and of divine authority. WHIT. pag. 90. No book is a part of the new Testament, which is written in Latin, yet is not Greeke the rule of the Canon. Hebrew: but those fragments, which commonly are annexed to that holy history of Ester, we cannot so highly account of: as for those three chapters, they are none of daniel's, of which read, if you please, c DUR. Hicrome to Ruffinus, seemeth to approve those three chapters of Daniel. WHIT. pag. 92. Erasmus noted that Hierome dealt craftily, having in his preface showed he thought otherwise. Hieromes preface upon Daniel. And there you shall find, that not the Anabaptists only, but the ancient jews have rejected and derided them. But, Campian, why do you trifle thus? were you wont to build much upon the authority of those books? did you in these lay the foundations of your faith? why then do you seek to make us odious by these books, which if they were never so Canonical, would further your cause never a whit the more? Now you much commend Augustine's modesty. Who, August. de doctrine. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 8. say you, hath made a Catalogue of the books of holy Scripture, far better than either the jews, or Sectaries. I could wish you jesuits had a little more modesty, that ye might be more like Augustine; for all men speak and cry out of your male pertnes and insolency. But Augustine counted those books Canovicall, which we do not; true, I deny it not, but what of that? is not Augustine opposite to Hierome? for Hierome expressly denies those books to be numbered in the Canon. And Augustine setting down the whole Canon of the Scripture, doth annex these to it. It seemeth there is a great difference in their judgements: for those which Hierome denies, Augustine affirmeth to be Canonical: both famous men and such as have deserved well of the Church of God; how then may we satisfy Augustine, whom Campian objecteth unto us? No otherwise then as the truth is. The terms of Apochryphas and Canonical Hierome useth in one sense, and Augustine in another: Hierome accounted all these books Apochryphas, which were not written in Hebrew: Augustine though in deed and in truth he differed not, yet he gave this name especially to those books, which were not fraught with fables and lies, such as those times afforded very many. For so he writeth lib. 15. cap. 23. the civit. Dei. Though there be some truth found in the Apochrypha books, yet they have no Canonical authority, there being so many lies in them. Therefore he names in the Canon the book of judith and Toby and Ecclesiasticus, & other of that sort, because there was more truth and sincerity in them, then in those common and divulged fables. Therefore Augustine useth the term of Canonical Scripture more largely than Hierome, and of Apochryphas more strictly: unless happily we will suppose that of set purpose Augustine would differ from Hierome in a thing of that moment. Besides the Romish Cardinal, Caietan. in fine comenta. in histor. veter. Testameuti. of whom we spoke before, writeth that certain Counsels with Augustine accounted these books Canonical because they were rules for manners, not for faith and doctrine. And what reason Augustine had to plead for the book of Wisdom, De predest. Sanct. c. 24. lest it should be turned out of the Canon, let him look to it himself; this very book Hierom, (whom you jesuits usually prefer before Augustine) hath by name excluded, and from the self-same place where Augustine confirmeth the authority of this book, every man may gather, that it was not commonly received in the Canon; for when Augustine cited a testimony out of that book. He was taken away, Wisd. 4.11. least wickedness should alter his understanding, many of the brethren who were present cried out; It was not alleged out of a Canonical book. d DUR. But you revive not Augustine's answer, and how he objected against them, the consent of all Bishops, faithf●ll Laity. etc. WHIT. pag. 97. Augustine doth not accuse them of impudence or sacrilege for denying it, nor reproves them much, only he saith it is better than other treatises; which I acknowledge. And the consents of the former he alleged to prove that a sentence of this book, is not lightly to be rejected, seeing many Churches did read it, though all did not receive it, as himself saith the civit. Dei lib. 27. cap. 20. Now it is like, they never would have rejected the argument and testimony of this speech, if the authority of that book had been Canonical in the Church. And yet I deny not but that Antiquity might think more reverently of this book, then of other of the books of Apochryphaes. For I observe in Eusebius, that c DUR. Melito affirmeth this book to be Canonical. WHIT. pag. 98. Be it so, yet he rejecteth all your other and what have you got by it? But by the name of Wisdom some think, he meaneth the Proverbs of Solomon. Melita, the Bishop of Sardis, in a certain Epistle written to Onesimus, wherein he setteth down exactly the number of the sacred books of the old Testament, and accounteth this book as one of the Canon: yet he mentioneth not one of the others which we call Apochryphas, neither Toby, nor judith, nor the Macchabees, nor Ecclesiasticus, nor yet any of the rest, for which you strive so much; yet he affirmeth that he took great pains to know exactly those ancient books, and professeth that he fully attained his end. Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. After, saith he, I had learned exactly what books belong to the old Testament, I sent them here under written unto you. And this it may be induced Augustine to attribute the more to this book, and yet it cannot be proved hence, as you would have it, that this book was Authentical and Canonical by the account of the Church, for Augustine himself witnesseth that it was not allowed as Canonical by the judgement of the Church; neither indeed if the Church would have given it all the allowance she could, could she have made it Authentical, except it had before it own Authenticalnes in itself from above. But you who glory so greatly in Antiquity, in the voice of the Church, in Counsels, what will you answer to the Laodicene Council, Concil. Laodic. Canon. 59 which forbids the reading of those books, which are without the Canon, and commandeth the reading of those only which are of the Canon of the old and new Testament: f DUR. It hath been answered a thousand times, that as yet in this age all the books were not received into the Canon. WHIT. pag. 102. Then by your confession, for 300. years after Christ these books were not in the Canon; it skilleth not much what the latter Churches have affirmed, when the purest and most ancient Churches affirm the same wedo. DUR. The Counsels of Carthage, Florence, and Trent, have allowed them for Canonical. WHIT. pag. 102. We acknowledge not the two last to be lawful Counsels, the first allowed it for manners, not doctrine and faith, and if the authority of it be so great with you, than you may not call your Pope universal Bishop? for that Council denied it to him. Carthag. 3. cap. 26. distinct. 99 prima sedis. But which are they? are all those which the Tridentine Council hath put in the Catalogue? nothing less, but those only which our Church doth hold Canonical. If Campian, you will stand to the judgement of this Council, neither the book of Wisdom, nor any one of the other shall have place among the Canonical Scriptures. Now than whatsoever Augustine should say, if he were alive, doth not much trouble us: for whatsoever he should say in this kind, he could speak nothing against us, but it would touch the Fathers of the Laodicene Council, whose decree in this point, touching the Canonical Scriptures, either he had seen, or at least might take notice of it. Now for the things which follow you show much colour but little reason. You call this a horrible and detestable shift. Then do you, Campian, if you can, drive us out of this hold. Me thinketh it is so safe and well fortified, that it will easily bear off and repel all your assaults. Though, say you, their arms be blazed never so far abroad by their own disciples, though they buy and sell benefices, though in their sermons they cry out against Catholics, though they procure them the sword, rack and gallows, yet are they overcome, nought set by, horrible in men's sight, and quite overthrown. But yet young Friar, ●ow thus much, by God's blessing we hitherto stand upright on our feet, neither ever were we soiled at your hands, but have long ago by the help of God scattered, overthrown, and put to flight many of your armies. And the whole huge form of your pontifical and glorious synagogue hath long since tottered, and in short time will fall to the ground, as Dagon before the Ark; unless you jesuits manfully uphold and sustain it: for it is impossible for us to be vanquished of you, in the defence of this cause. Therefore with good courage and cheerfulness we pursue this flight, nothing doubting but that the Lord in the end will repress you, and all the enemies of his name and glory, and make you his footstool. And for that you writ, touching buying & selling of benefices, if any be yet amongst us, it is but the relics of your wicked practices heretofore among us. For you know the custom of the Romish Court, you know their filthiness, their avarice, their Simony, yea you know how the whole world crieth out, and that continually of your most gainful merchandises. Have you now leisure since you left Rome, to pry into our carriage, are all things so well at home, that you can without shame find faults abroad? Suppose you were now become honest and holy; yet you shall never be able to clear your Church of those filthy blemishes, wherewith it hath been defiled in former times. And if there be any yet amongst us that use so foul a trade, they are well worthy to hear such reproaches from you, as such practices do deserve. But I marvel the less that you object to us buying and selling of Benefices, when you complain of our cruelty. Now, good God, are we so cruel and you so mild? what shall I say to it or what answer may I make? sure it is, there is nothing more inhuman, than cruelty, or more opposite to a Christians virtue: for the disciples of Christ ought to be gentle, clement, and meek, master-like: what then? are we more cruel than you? I will never deny this trial, that their cause should be judged the worst, whose cruelty appears to be the greatest: I call to witness all the people of the Christian world, who have yet any sense of humanity and equity remaining in them. Let Italy speak, also Germany, Spain, France, and our England. It were tedious to recite the horrible murders, the fearful burnings, and exquisite punishments you exercised amongst us. Your cruelty is known, and is yet fresh in memory, neither shall ever be buried in oblivion: what like to these did we ever practise, or wherein is our cruelty so great? was it because we suffered not our throats to be cut by you, nor received your weapons into our bodies, nor laid our necks upon the block, nor willingly gave up our lives, that we might give you leave to live as you list. This is it indeed you wished for, for this you labour, and go about: we poor wretches are accounted cruel, because we live, and live to withstand your proceed. But I doubt not but all indifferent men do sufficiently discern, g DUR Campian himself had experience of your cruelty. WHIT. pag. 105. If Campian was by public proceeding condemned for treason, and put to death: who will accuse our cruelty, and not the greatness of his offence, yea and that he suffered not for religion, appeareth thus; others who were condemned with him at the same time, and for the same offence, when they renounced the Pope's authority of deposing of Kings, and freeing of subjects from obedience, were not put to death, as he was. how injuriously you lay this crimination upon us, for these things which you name as the sword, the rack, the gallows, and fire, are the instruments of your cruelty, and had it not been for these, your Church had been overthrown long ago: for by these weapons it was first founded, after increased, and is now maintained? if once these fail you, questionless it cannot long continue. But you now begin to press your adversaries somewhat more forcibly; and you demand of them, for example sake, by what authority they maim; and rob the corpses of the Bible, I answer we offer no violence to this body, ne●ther do we cut off any which do appertain to the substance, and perfection of it; we dash out no part of it, we pull away no member. For (to use your own words) we do not cut out any true Canonical Scriptures, but cull out such as are not Canonical, but foisted in and counterfeit. But you would know who shall be judge; you make Caluin to answer for us: the holy Ghost: and you suggesting that he giveth this answer, to escape the judgement of the Church; if you inquire how we know these writings, which we call Scriptures, to be heavenly, and given by the inspiration of God, that is, by what testimony we are persuaded that those writings are holy Scripture, which are so called: I would ask you with as much reason another question, how know you the son is the son, or how ye come not to doubt, that God is God: for we verily have as much certainty that th●se books are the sacred Scripture, commended of the Lord to the Church, written by the Prophets and Apostles, proceeding from divine authority, as that the Moon is the Moon, yea as we are sure of any thing else, which by undoubted knowledge we are full assured of; this answer Caluin also hath given you, justit. lib. 1. cap. 7. sect. 4. cap. 8. toto. writing that many things might be produced, which would easily prove, that if there be a God in heaven, the Law, the Prophets, and the Gospel came from him: yea and with many words at large he urgeth it with most strong arguments, such as may satisfy any reasonable man touching the authority, and credit of the Scriptures. There are in the books themselves proofs enough, both certain; and perspicuous, which will prove and demonstrate the credit of the Scriptures, that no man need boubt of them. But because the sense and reason of man is often times weak, and easily distracted into divers and doubtful cogitations, the inward and hidden testimony of the spirit must be had, that men may firmly rest in the Scriptures. For though outward testimonies will so convince us, that for shame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God; yet then only do we attain a certain and saving full assurance, when the same spirit, which writ and published them, doth persuade our hearts of the credit of them. And this is that spirit, which the Lord hath promised to his Church, and which dwelleth in the hearts of the faithful, and is as a seal unto them, he that hath not this spirit, shall ever in himself be uncertain and doubtful, though he hear the Church a thousand times. What is the fault than you find, Campian? Caluin, say you, doth make the spirit judge thereby to escape the judgement of the Church, by whose authority all spirits are tried. The judgement of the Church ought not to differ from the judgement of the spirit: the same spirit governeth the whole h DUR. What an absurd thing is this, that you contemn the voice of the Church, and allow your common people to judge rather of the Scriptures, and give all to the spirit; when the Fathers have objected the Church against heretics? WHIT. pag. 109. We contemn not the voice of the first Church, wherein these were written, and from them commended to succeeding Churches. But, pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romish Church; for as we know there is a God, though it tell us not so much: so that the Scriptures are the word of God, though it be silent; and by the same grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures, by the same proofs may every private Christian know them. pag. 111. If you know not, that the grace of the spirit is necessary to discern the Scriptures, then read these places John 14, 26. 1. john 2, 26, 27. 1, Cor. 2, 14, 10. Esay 51, 16. Now the same spirit who w●it them, seals them up to us: without which some knowledge may be had of them, b●t no faith; we may acknowledge them, but not certainly believe them without the spirit. And if the Fathers have objected the Church against heretics, in the like case we will do the same. For the testimony of the spirit is not of validity to confute others, but to confirm ourselves. Church and every particular believer. But your Church knoweth not this spirit; no marvel then if it dislike the judgement of the spirit: yet I would have you take this for an answer once for all: that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend upon the judgement of the Church: for let the Church judge what it will, yet can it never by all the authority it hath make the Canonical books to be no Canonical; and that those which are not Canonical, should be had in reputation as Canonical. The Scripture hath it own proper authority in itself, not borrowed from another. And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture, as it can to God, the author of it. But say you, how cometh it to pass, that the Caluinists spirit alloweth six Epistles, which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow? you go in a ring, making only the repetition of the same things without any proceeding. Those Epistles the Lutherans i DUR. That the Lutherans do not like these Epi●iles, t●ey of Magdeburg. Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell us plainly. WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to us who think as honourably of them as you do? but if they, by the example of ancient church's have spoken somewhat hardly of those Epistles, is there here any such difference of spirit's? All things are not reue●led to all a like: all have not the like measure of the spirit. If any be otherwise minded, God will in his time revelle ●t to him. do not reject, nor dash them out of the new Testament; yea they acknowledge them, they make use of them in vnfoulding of controversies, they expound them in their schools and churches, and they read them both privately and publicly: upon many of them Luther hath written k DUR. By the same reason, if Luther should comment upon certain of Aesop's fables, and Illyricus upon all, then by their spirit they are certainly received into the Canon. WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aesop's fables be in the Canon, if your Church please; seeing your Wolfangus & Hermannus affirm, the Scriptures are of no more authority, than those fables without the authority of your Church? But I add if you would have seen it, that they used them in preaching, in expounding Scriptures, in deciding controversies, and did interpret them both privately and publicly. Commentaries, Illyricus upon all. That of the authority of those Epistles in times past the Catholic Church made some doubt, they discover to their Auditors, and show withal the causes of that doubt, and that done, leave it undetermined. I pray you, Campian, what contradiction find you here, betwixt the spirit of the Caluinists and the Lutherans? Yet still you cavil at this judgement of the spirit, which of all other is most certain and heavenly: and here you produce Anabaptists, Castalio, Brentius, Kemnitius, Luther, and Beza. And by these you hope that you may diminish the authority of the spirit. Sixt. Senens. lib. 7. The Anabaptists, (say you) call the history of job a fable, interlaced with tragical and Comical matters. As though we were ignorant, how wickedly and blasphemously they conceive, not only of the history of job, but also of the whole books both of the new and old Testament; and that spirit of the Anabaptists, what was it but a kind of frency, and a violent and headstrong madness; which no spirit ever did more repress, than l DUR. The Anabaptists will aswell accuse the spirit of Calnin of madness and folly. WHIT. pag. 119. Yet I durst make you judge of this controu●●fie, & unless you were also as mad, you would judge them very unlike. the Caluinist and Lutheran spirit? Why then do you mention their madness, thereby to scoff at the certain judgements of the holy Ghost? Prafat. in Cantic. Castalio, say you, made no more account of salomon's Song, than he did of a bandy song and ribauldous talk of a Courtly waiting maid with her lover. I will not take upon me to defend all that any man hath written at random, much less will I trouble myself to defend the credit of Castalio, whom I well know hath erred in many great points very shamefully. Yet in this place I find you have notably abused Castalio: for in that short preface which he hath set before this book, he hath none of those you speak of, neither a song, nor a Love, nor courtly waiting maids, nor wanton talk, nor any such thing, but hath truly, learnedly, and modestly in few words comprised the sum of the whole book: his first words are these: A conference betwixt the Saviour and his Church. Now you may see how highly Caestalio accounted of this song, and how shameless your cavil is against him. I cannot now be much offended with you, for casting so many false things upon Caluin and Luther, when you are not ashamed so palpably to belly Castalio. And that you say next touching the Revelation, is much like to the rest of your cavils. In it, say you, Luther, and Brentius, Praefat in Apo●al. lib. 3. cap. 24. & cap. 39 and Kemnisius, find, I know not what, lacking. What is the meaning of this, They find somewhat lacking? do they reject it, do they disallow it? you cannot say so: therefore you speak faintly and diffidently: They find somewhat lacking. Howsoever, if you will read Eusebius, you shall understand that in it many things were found lacking, and that it was not received of all, yea plainly rejected of many. But what is this to us, when as you cannot deny we have received this book, and do no less reverence the mysteries that are in it, than yourselves? and perhaps it had fitted your turn well, if this book had either perished, or been of no credit at all: for it doth so lively paint out your Pope, & your purple whore in her colours, that it clearly discovereth to all men, who is Antichrist. Have you yet any thing more against Luther? Praefat. in nowm Testamentum. Luther, say you, casteth a 'bove among the four Evangelists and preferring S. Paul's Epistles far before the three former Gospels, in the end concludeth, that the only Gospel of S. john from henceforth is to be taken for the gay, the true, and the principal Gospel; Luther indeed preferreth the Gospel of john before the other three, because he setteth down the Acts of Christ more briefly, and his Sermons more fully. Now a Gospel consisteth rather in heavenly doctrine, then in the history of things done. Yet he denies not but that the other Gospels are well set out, true, and very excellent; and far is he from esteeming this the only gay and true Gospel. Now this very point you speak of here, I find also in the preface of the first Epistle of S. Peter. And I would entreat the Christian reader to take through notice of this thing, so shall he easily perceive both Luther's integrity, and Campians cavilling. First Luther teacheth what a Gospel is: and writeth that a Gospel signifieth nothing else, But the preaching and publishing of the grace, and mercy of God by the Lord Christ, merited and purchased to us by his death. He that either preacheth or writeth this grace and mercy of God in Christ, he, as Luther affirmeth, teacheth the Gospel. And therefore not the four Evangelists only have taught the Gospel; but also all the Apostles have done so too, and especially Saint Paul & Saint Peter in their Epistles. And moreover he affirmeth, that of all those they are the best m DUR. What Scripture teacheth us, that be is an Evangelist, which teacheth justificatio by faith only? If any, than Luther was the best Evangelist. WHIT. pag. 125. I can reckon you up many, but these may suffice, Esay 52▪ 7. Rom. 10.15. Now peace ●iseth of our reconciliation with God and remission of sins, which things faith only lays hold on. Rom. 5.1. 2, Cor. 5, 19 Rom. 4, 4. And this matter S. Paul principally, in his Epistles to the Romans and Galathians, hath fully and plainly handled, and not Luther so much. DUR. But the Angel tau●ht no such thing Luk. 2.10. WHIT. pag 126. If you had looked to the next verse, you should have found that the Angel did te●ch as much in effect. Evangelists, who have therein specially laboured, to teach justification by faith in Christ alone: for this is the sum of the Gospel. And hereupon he concludeth that the Epistles of Paul may more fitly be called the Gospel, than those things Matthew, Mark, and Luke have written: for that he doth more fully & plentifully decipher to us the grace of God in Christ, than those three, whose history is for the most part spent in the declaration of the Acts and Miracles of Christ. And this is the true cause wherefore he preferred the Gospel of S. john and the Epistles of S. Paul before the three other Gospels; whereby he neither casteth a bone among the Evangelists, nor goeth about to make the Apostles partakers of his brawlings; neither hath said any thing either frowardly or preposterously: for why, I pray you, may we not say, that S. Paul hath more clearly and excellently described the power of the Cross of Christ in his Epistles, than any of the Evangelists in their history; when as by it the authority of the history of the Gospel is nothing disparaged? And now I doubt not but I have sufficiently defended Luther's innocency against your railing and outrageous sauciness. But yet again you assault Luther: whom you say doubted not to tax S. Luke's Gospel, Serm. de Pharis. & Publi. as if it were written in a wanton style, because therein good works are often recommended unto us. Was there ever read or heard of the like impudency, audaciousness, and treacherous dealing in any man? The place you note in the margin I have very diligently and heedfully observed, that I might discern; wherein Luther hath showed such male pertnes: but I have not found one unholy, nor dishonourable term, unfit to be given to S. Luke, as being an heavenly Evangelist. For that which Luther propounds to himself is to take out of men's minds a scruple, which S. Luke's often mention of works might move in them; lest any happily might think that S. Luke by often speaking of works, should detract somewhat from faith, or place our justification in our works. And this is, as you affirm, saucily to give S. Luke a wipe; if you can tell me of any greater matter, I will no ways defend or excuse Luther's malapertness. But what malapertness is this of yours, Campian, whom neither the fear of God, nor the reverence of men, can restrain from writing or divulging of those things, which your own conscience tells you are most false? and you cannot pass by Beza neither without the like Calumnious censure. Who, say you, was so bold as to reprehend that mystical word, Hic est calix, n●u●m Testame●tum in s●●guine meo, qui (calix) pro vobis fundetur, This is the cup of the new Testament in my blood, which (cup) shall be shed for you; a● corrupted and depraved. I see well where your error is in following that corrupt and adulterous vulgar translation, for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, you thus translate. a DUR. I confess there is a Metonymy in the cup: the cup being put for the blood. WHIT. pag. 130. Then, this cup, is as much, as this blood: Then see what a sentence you have made: This blood is the new Testament in my blood, which is shed for you. As if Christ had said: This blood is the new Testament in my blood. And so here are two bloods, and the one in the other. Hic est calix nowm Testamentum. This is the cup of the new Testament: when the words are rather thus to be placed. Hic calix est nowm Testamentum, This cup is the new Testament: and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being a participle of the present tense, you translate by a verb of the future tense: Qui fundetur, shall be shed for you: for, Qui funditur, is shed for you. But you dare not go a hairs breadth from the vulgar translation, for fear of incurring that curse of the Council of Trent. But here Theodor Beza apparently is caught in a heinous crime: for he writeth that Luke hath committed a Solecism: what than I pray you? a very foul fact and very intolerable. Is it so indeed? how shall we then defend Hierome, who writeth that Paul committed such solecisms in his words, that by no good ordering any good sense could be made of them? In cap. 3. Epist. ad Ephes. If S. Paul might commit Solecisms in his words, why may we not think S. Luke may do as much? and if Hierome without sin might accuse S. Paul, not to speak properly or scholarlike; why might not Beza note some want of propriety of speech in S. Luke? for you are wide, Campian, if you think this any thing diminisheth the authority & dignity of the Scriptures, for Hier●me construeth it quite contrary. Let us look therefore upon the place of the Evangelist, that we may judge where this fault is. The words run thus. This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shed for you. If you change nothing in the words and exclude all incongruity, than these last words, Which is shed for you, must be referred to the first, This cup. And so this should be the meaning, This cup is shed for you: But not the cup, but the blood of Christ was shed for us. But you will say the cup is put for the wine in the cup. So that whether you will or no, you must acknowledge that in these words there is a trope or figure: though you Papists usually deny the same, and vehemently cry out, none of them is to be taken figuratively. But you yourselves in these words make two figures; first you take the cup for the wine in it, than the wine for the blood of Christ, which in no hand you can do without a figure: therefore hereafter stand not upon words; for if you will now stand to the words, you must either grant that the cup was shed for us, or you must admit a solecism and unproper speech. If we will read them as Basill doth; Basil. in Eth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Which blood is shed for you: the meaning will be plain, when these words which is shed for you, are referred to the blood of Christ. These are Campians collections of such things, wherein our men have offended against the authority and dignity of the Scripture. These he crieth out do evidently open our diffidence and desperation, these are those things he propoundeth unto you, that are most learned of the University. Whose judgement I am therefore also well contented to stand unto, because I well know your learning and wisdom, together with your studious endeavours in the best authors, to be such, that this silly foolish sophister with all his slanders and lies shall never be able to remove or corrupt you: for what matter hath he brought, or what invention, which may seem to savour either of deep learning, much reading, or witty conceit? Therefore you shall do well to set light by the threats of this Philistine, and to cleave with constancy to that holy religion which you have learned out of the holy Scriptures: as also proceed in that course of virtue and learning you have begun, that the jesuits with all their enchantments may lose all their labour in seeking to seduce you. Hitherto Campian hath busied himself in discoursing unto us, what he could, concerning the holy books, being desirous also to deliver unto us, such things as we have depraved in our false translations: save that, as he saith, he reserves this labour for his old College fellow Gregory Martin, & some others, whom he well knoweth will perform it far more learnedly and copiously then himself. Therefore if you think good, we will expect this Martin of whom you speak, and whom I shall easily conceive to be a man of more learning than yourself, unless he be a very dolt indeed. And I doubt not but we shall be able to maintain our translations, both Latin and English, against your Martin and all your Colleagnes. And as for those petty Doctors whom you lastly reproach, I neither know them, nor the nature of their offence. But when once your friend Martin shall come abroad, who now perhaps is hammering some special piece of work, we shall learn from him many new and excellent points. This your first reason seemed very just in your conceit to maintain your glorious challenge of disputation, with some of the learned of our Universities. But Campian, you had dealt a great deal wiser for yourself, if either you had never conceived these reasons, or straightway upon the birth smothered them. For before by your great challenge you begat a marvelous and wonderful conceit of yourself in every man's mind: and now when they shall read● those slender reasons of yours, they will easily perceive, there is no cause why you should take so much upon you, and they will tontemptuously deride you, as you well deserve, & hiss you out of their schools. Therefore the counsel which Archidamu● gave to his Son headily venturing to right with the Athenians, the same do our University men give to to you: Either add to thy might, or abate of thy mind: for no man, Campian, ever took more upon him, and performed less than you have done. But let us see what other things you bring us. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The second Reason, which is the right sense of the Scriptures. ANother matter that provoked me to undertake this enterprise; and that enforced me little to fear these my adversaries slender armies, is the usual inclination of my enemy in expounding the Scriptures, full of deceit, and void of wisdom. These things you Philosophers would quickly find out; and therefore I was desirous of your audience. Let us demand (for example sake) of our adversaries, what caused them to devise this new opinion, whereby Christ is * This is false, for we do not exclude Christ from the Supper. excluded out of the mystical supper? If they name the Gospel, we join with them, the very words they are for us. a Matth. 26 Mark. 14. Luk. 22. This is my body, this is my blood: which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen. Luther so forcible, that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind, because by that means he might have wrought the Pope most displeasure; yet notwithstanding he yielded, being overcome and vanquished by the most plain text of Scripture, and as unwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament, as the c Matth. ●. Mark 1. devils in time past being overcome with miracles, with outcries confessed that Christ is the son of God. Go to then, the written word doth favour us: the controversy is about the true meaning of the written word. Let us try out this by the words thereunto adjoining: d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur, sanguis meus, qui pro multis e●lundetur: that is, My body which is given for you, my blood which shallbe shed for many. Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins' side▪ and maketh very manifestly and plainly for us. What say they else? Confer say they, the Scriptures together. Agreed. The c john. 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for us, f 1. Cor. 10. & 11. S. Paul accordeth also. The words, the sentences, the whole connexion of Scriptures do often most reverently repeat the bread and the wine, a not able miracle, heavenly food, his flesh, his body, his blood. Here is nothing figurative, nothing obscured by doubtful speeches: yet notwithstanding the adversaries stand stiffly in their opinion, and never cease wrangling. What shall we then do? I hope antiquity may be heard, and that the reverend hoar head of Fathers of all former ages, to Christ's time more nigh, & farther off from the time of these controversies, may be their judgement, determine this debate, which we cannot end amongst ourselves, being suspected one of another. * This is false, for in this controversy we willingly admit Antiquity as witness. They cannot away with that; they say then they are betrayed. They cry out for the sincere and pure word of God: they utterly reject all men's commentaries: treacherously and witlesselie done. We will urge them with the word of God; they darken it: we call the Saints in heaven for witnesses; they refuse them. In few words this is their drift, that unless thou wilt stand to their own judgement that are guilty, there is no judgement to be had. And so they behave themselves in every controversy between us. As concerning grace powered into us from heaven, inherent justice, the visible Church, the necessity of Baptism, Sacraments, and sacrifices, meritorious works of good folk; hope and fear, inequality of offences, the authority of S. Peter, the keys, vows, evangelical counsels, and other like controversies, we Catholics in sundry of our books, in our mutual conference, in churches, in schools have brought forth many and weighty places of Scripture, and have both tried and applied the same. They have scorned at this. We have alleged the interpretations of the ancient Greek and Latin Churches; they have refused them. What say they then? marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther, or else M. Philip Melanthon, or certainly M. Zuinglius, or without doubt M. Caluin, and M. Beza have faithfully entreated upon these matters. Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose, that being forewarned, cannot quickly smell out this subtle juggling? wherefore I confess plainly that I am desirous to have audience in the University schools, that after I have called these Ruffianlike knights out of their dark dens into the open and plain field, I may before your eyes discomfit them, not by my own strength, which am not to be compared with the worst of an hundred of our side, but by the puissance of the cause, and certainty of the truth which we maintain. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the second Reason. WHat could be said touching the Scriptures we have heard, we must proceed to hear what can be said for the interpretation and exposition of them; for our usual inclination in expounding the Scriptures, (saith Campian) hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter. And we also (Campian) have long ago desired to buckle with you herein. And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light, that we might try it out with you; but what is our disposition you speak of? It is full of deceit, say you, and void of wisdom. Thus you being a man of small reach, and less discretion, do conceit our inclination. Assuredly the matter you have now in hand is a cause of great weight: for the force, the substance, and as it were the soul of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning: very well said Hierome: The Scriptures are not in the letter, but in the understanding: Contra Lucifer. in 1. cap. ad Gila. and in another place: a DUR. Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospel upon the Church; when they brought in a new sense of the words, such as the whole Christian ●orld knew not; yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 138. If this last be granted you, yet it followeth not that they brought in a new Gospel, because they differed from that sense: for the sense is not to be sought for among the multitude; but we must look to the Scriptures and to God speaking in them: as the men of Berea did not take the sense of the most, but searched the Scriptures whether Paul taught things agreeing unto it. The Gospel is not in the words of the Scripture, but in the sense. They then have the best end of the staff, and are the best patrons of Religion and truth, who find out and keep the true and natural meaning of the Scripture. For the letter or word is plain; all controversies depend upon the meaning of the Word. The state of the question is then thus, whether of us twain have attained the true and natural meaning of the Scripture: whether you jesuits, falsely called Catholics; or we, who oppose your opinion and judgement. First therefore in general, and in few words we will see what is your opinion and judgement: then we will answer to your cavils. Now it is most clear that you make both the Scripture itself, and the interpretation of it to depend upon the authority of the b DUR. Is it some heinous offence to require the judgement of the Church in interpreting the Scriptures? WHIT. pag. 142. We contemn not the judgement of the Church, but highly esteem it as profitable to the well interpreting of the Scriptures. But we contemn the judgement of your Church, which hath not any thing which a true Church should have. DUR Whither then should we go to find the sense? WHIT. Even whether Christ biddeth us, go search the Scriptures, john 5.39. And this use they have, saith S. Paul. 2. Tim. 3.15.16. Church. And the Church you call not the whole multitude of Christians and faithful men, but you restrain both the name and nature of the Church unto your c DUR. You reprove us, that we give the interpretation of the Scriptures to Bishops: they verily aught to deliver the true sense they have received from their predecessors to the people. WHIT. pag. 144. S. Paul alloweth all Ministers of the Gospel this power to interpret the Scriptures, 1. Cor. 14.29.30. who ought aswell to deliver the true sense, as Bishops. Besides, you must know that the knowledge of t●● Scriptures and the gifts of the spirit are not hereditary, or to be delivered from hand to hand. Bishops. But your Bishops may differ touching the sense of the Scriptures, so shall we be uncertain and shall not resolve which of them to believe. But you can help this, general d DUR. Great and many controversies have been decided by Counsels. WHIT. pag. 145. It followeth not hereupon, that the interpreting of the Scriptures is to be sought for of them; or if good Counsels by the true interpretation of the Scriptures have taken away some errors and heresies; that therefore all interpretation is theirs, or that we must look for the same from impious and unlearned Counsels. Counsels must decide and determine all questions and controversies. Shall we then rest in them? no more than in the other: for the e DUR. And why not? seeing no Council is of any authority, which was not confirmed by the Pope? WHIT. pag. 146. This is false: for the sixth African Council, and the Chalcedon Council have their authority without him. And Emperors, Patriarches, and Bishops have confinued Counsels. And the Council of Constantinople by letters desired the confirmation of the decrees from Theodosius the Emperor. DUR .. God set over the jews one High Priest. Deut. 17.11. Then would Christ never neglect his Spouse, but leave her a chief judge upon the earth. WHIT. pag. 151. Yet that judge was to determine according to the Law; Deut. 17.11. But the Pope maketh interpretations, not out of the word written, but out of his own brain. Again it followeth not, if over one little nation God set one chief judge, Christ must set but one over the whole world. Besides the jewish judge was a type of Christ. Lastly, it followeth not that Chri●● hath left his Church no judge; i● he have not le●t it one only; for every Church ha●h her Pastor to teach her, and to determine questions in her. Pope must be judge over the Counsels. So in the conclusion, the whole interpretation of holy Scriptures is transferred to the Pope, and must be fetched out of his breast: yea and as a proper right he so challengeth the power of interpreting of the Scripture, that whatsoever he thinketh, that must be accounted the sense and meaning of them. This is your constant and perpetual property and disposition in interpreting the Scriptures, full of dotage, error, and falsehood, void of advise, knowledge and wisdom. For what an absurd and horrible thing is it, that the sense and meaning of the holy Scripture should depend upon one man's judgement and voice? specially being such a one, as commonly the Bishops of Rome have been, unlearned, wicked, heretical. And hence have proceeded all those goodly interpretations, Take, Eat, that is, you Priests say private Masses: Dist. 31. Tenere. Drink ye all of this, that is, only the Priests must drink. Be ye holy, for I am holy, f DUR. Which o● the Popes or what Catholic writer ever collected this out of that place? WHIT. pag. 159. Pope Syricius did first of all so collect: and after him Pope Innocent, as you may read in Gra●●an Dist. 31. cap. Ten●re; Dist. 82. cap. prop●suisti: cap. plurimos. therefore it is unlawful for the Minister of the Word to marry a wife. Give ye not holy things to dogs, therefore the people must be forbidden to read the Scriptures. What should I number up innumerable more of your interpretations, by which you do nothing but pervert and wrest the Scriptures? Is this indeed, Campian, the right interpreting of Scripture? or must all Christians receive this exposition as the oracle of God? But what should I speak of the constant tenor you keep in the interpretation of Scripture? for you make the sense of Scriptures so changeable, so diverse, and inconstant, like to a nose of wax and a leaden rule, Pighius. that at all assays it may ever serve your turn. So writeth g DUR. Cusanus hath written very rightly, for there are divers senses of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 162. What rule then can be more uncertain than the Scriptures? or what can be spoken more vilely of the Scripture? how then is the Scripture one rule? Phil. 3.16. how is i● firm enduring for ever? 1. Pet. 1.25. how no deceitful balance. Augus●. d●▪ Baptis. count Don. lib. 2. cap. 6. Nicholas Cusanus, a Cardinal of Rome, Nicol. Cusan. Epist. 2. Epist. 7. to the Bohemians. This understand that the Scriptures are fitted to the time, and diversely to be understood; so that at one time they may be expounded according to the common & customable course: but change that, and the sense is changed; so that it is no marvel if the custom of the Church at one time interpret the Scriptures after this manner, & another time after that. Was there ever the like boldness heard of; that men would wrest the eternal and immutable word of God, which ever hath but one and the same sense, to serve the will of the Church, that is, of the Pope of Rome? Thom. 1. ●. 1. art. 10. beside this you have made so many h DV●. The Fathers and Antiquity have ever made these four senses of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 163. To feign such four senses in every sentence differeth not much from a learned kind of madness. Allegories I confess many are in the Scriptures, but such as the holy Ghost himself hath made; but to make other Allegories, when the words may be understood without a Trope, or when the Grammatical sense is not absurd and repugnant to sound doctrine, I think is too great boldness and temerity. A Tropological sense is not a new sense differing from the Grammatical, but one ●s it were with it. Finally, if the Fathers as men have erred, must we needs follow their errors? The Fathers rejected the errors and false interpretations of their predecessors, why may not we deal so with them? senses of every place, to wit, an allegorical, a tropological, an anagogical sense, that by your Ledgerdemaine, you have abolished the true and native sense. Now, Campian, since you know that this is the manner of your Church in the interpreting of the Scripture, than which what can be more corrupt, how dare you presume to reprehend our manner of interpretation? But we follow no other course than that which the Fathers have prescribed, and which the thing itself argues to be most fit. For that is our course which Augustine advised: we interpret obscure places by those which are plainer, we observe the phrase and style of the Scripture, we weigh circumstances, we compare scripture with scripture, we go not one jot from the Analogy of faith. They who take this course, adjoining their hearty prayers, that the Lord would open this sealed book unto them; and teach them the true sense of the scripture, shall never need to run to Rome, and inquire of that sacred Oracle of the Pope, who himself neither understandeth the true sense of scripture, neither is able to expound them to others. But to return now to Campian: what is the usual fault he finds in our dealing with the scripture? and what be the arguments by which he doth confute us? Let us demand, saith he, (for example sake) of our Adversaries what caused them to devise this new opinion, whereby Christ is excluded out of the mystical Supper. We, Campian, do not i DUR. If you place Christ's body and your supper so far asunder, how do you not exclude him from i●? WHIT. pag. 168. It is true, if things that are severed could no way be joined but by a corporal ouching; but without it, it may fitly be, as all believers are joined together, though they be far distant and distracted one from another; as jews, Grecians, and all other godly, make but one body with Christ: what is that bond of this union, but the power of the spirit? Such an union is this in the Sacrament, and it hath the some bond. exclude Christ out of the Supper, neither do we otherwise think of the Sacrament then both Christ hath taught us, and the old Church hath prescribed. We certainly affirm, that the faithful in the supper receive whole Christ, God and Man: we believe and teach that they eat his body and drink his blood. Neither doubt we to affirm, but that he, that comes to the supper, and doth not in the supper partake of Christ, that he is in danger of condemnation. Do we now exclude Christ from the supper? But whosoever includeth Christ in the supper as you do, he feigneth and forgeth a new Christ to himself, he confoundeth heaven and earth together, he offereth violence to nature, and mu●● needs admit innumerable absurdities. Wherefore we following the scripture, as our schoolmasters, not taking up any new opinion, place the natural and human body of Christ in heaven; for so the Apostle Peter speaketh, whom the heavens must contain, until the time that all things be restered; Act. 3.21. yet the k DUR. The● is Christ as present in Baptism, and in the word, and wheresoever your faith seeks for him, as in the supper; yea as present to the Father● in the old Testament as now to us. WHIT. pag. 169. So questionless he is, vnl●sse all men be without hope of life and salvation, who are deprived of the Supper. For John 6.53. yea all Christians communicate of Christ alike, as well such as come to the supper, as they who cannot partake in it: And that he was present to the Fathers it is proved. 1. Cor. 10.3.4. virtue, the communion, the benefit of this body we exclude not from the supper: but stiffly maintain, that in the supper whole Christ is present to each man's faith. This is the sum of our opinion, which I no less doubt to be the true sense of the scripture, then that Christ is Christ, or that to be scripture which is scripture. This opinion out of all others which we hold, have you made choice of, as an example to impugn and gainsay: Let us see now how scholarlike you acquit yourself. If they name the Gospel, say you, we join with them. The very words make for us. This is my body, this is my blood: I acknowledge the words do, but I inquire now for the sense of them: whether they should be so expounded as your Church teacheth: that the bread is Transubstantiated into the body, and the wine into the blood of Christ: or by a Trope and in a mystical sense, that the bread is the Sacrament, the sign and symbol of the body, and so the wine of the blood of Christ, as we interpret them. Whether opinion hath more truth in it, we will now discuss. As for that which you tell us of Luther, I suppose you will not expect any answer from me: and undoubtedly in this thing Luther was far more opposite to your opinion, then ours. For he ever condemned your Transubstantiation, as it is, for an accursed invention and fiction of Satan. Luther we acknowledge was a man, who though he saw the truth in many things, yet he might err in some things: his good things we embrace, but we are bound by no law to defend his errors. But how shall we find out the meaning of this saying? Let us try out this, say you, by the words thereto adjoining. Nothing can be spoken more truly, nothing more fitly, nor more ingenuously. And verily I could wish you would always do, as you pretend in this place to do, sister out the meaning of the scripture by the circumstances of the words. But what are the words adjoining? My body which is given for you, my blood which is shed for you. Campian, you are too sparing and scant in the point: repeat, and say, that which goeth before. As they did eat, Christ took bread, he blessed it, he broke it, and gave it to his disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is my body, and he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gau● it to them saying, Drink ye all of this, for this is my blood etc. So now, Campian, I will deal with you from the words which are now adjoining. What was it Christ took? you will say bread: what broke he? bread: what gave he to his disciples? bread: wh●● did he bid them take and eat? bread: what said he was his body? was it any other thing, ●hen the very same bread which he took into his hands, brake and l DUR. He took bread, but he gave not bread to his disciples, but his body. WHIT. pag. 183. Then one body of Christ is made two, one sitting among them, another delivered unto them; yea as many bodies as there were Communicants. And the disciples did receive, chaw, and eat him, whom they saw s●ting with them: but when was the change made? for before he had spoken these operative words, This is my body, he broke it & gave it ●o his disciples: either these words make not the change, or he ga●e to his disciples, bread unchanged. DUR. ●f there was no change, than the blessing wa● without profit. WHIT. pag. 185. As if all blessings were without profit if they change not the nature of things: God blessed our first parents, Gen. 1.28. Noah and his Sons, Gen. 9.1 Christ his disciples at his departure, Luk. 24.51. was their blessing without profit, because they changed not their natures and substance? Besides to bless is nothing else but to give thanks, as Luke hath it, which was done by words before, not by those, This is my body. gave to his disciples. Therefore that when Christ saith. This is my body: this is my blood; is as much as if he said: This bread is my body, and this cup is my blood. But the bread and the body of Christ, the cup and the blood of Christ, are they not differing, and well-nigh contrary? Then tell us, how they can affirm, or be spoken one of another, unless you will admit a Tropical speech. Yet, Campian, to use your own words, the matter gocth hard on your side, and maketh very plainly and manifestly for us. For Christ saith plainly that the bread is his body, which cannot be true without a figure, that bread made to eat, should be properly Christ's body. And this is that figure which we find so often in the Scriptures, specially when any Sacrament is spoken of. So in Genesis cap. 17. the Lord saith of Circumcision m DV●. This is neither here, nor any where else to be found in the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 173. Ma●ke well. This is my covenant which you shall keep, that every man-child be circumcised: what I pray you is, This, but that every man-child be circumcised, and ●o you have it in this place directly: but see, Gen. 17.13. My covenant shall be in your flesh, what is this but circumcision? read Act. 7.8. DUR. This, signifieth not circumcision, but agreement or covenant betwixt God a●d Abraham touching circumcision. WHIT. That agreement, was it the covenant or not? ●f it was, then see what a goodly sentence you have made, This my covenant is my covenant. But if it was not: them you must needs acknowledge a Metonymy; that is, that the name of th● thing is given to the sign, howsoever than it must be understood by a figure. This is the covenant betwixt me and Gen. 17.10. you. Yet Circumcision was not the covenant, but the sign of the covenant. Now tell us I pray you, what difference betwixt these two: This is my covenant & this is my body? The former you cannot deny, but must be understood by a Metonymy: and can any man make doubt, but that the latter likewise is to be so expounded. The like we read of the Lamb. Exod. 12.11. n DUR. These words are not to be found there. WHIT. pag. 174. Observe the words. Thus shall you eat it, for it is the Lords Passover. That which was to be eaten is called the Lords Passeover. Now they we●e commanded to eat the Lamb, read Exod 12. ve●se 27. 〈◊〉 is the Lords Passeover. And yet the Lamb was not the Passeover, but a memorial of it: like to this is that of S. Paul. o DUR. There is no figure in the word Christ, but in rock; for the rock was the sign of Christ. WHIT. pag. 175. Then you acknowledge a Metonymy in the word●, because the rock was the Sacrament of Christ. And if here there be a Trope, then why not in these words of this Sacrament? The rock was Christ. 1. Cor. 10.1. Now as the rock was Christ, so is this mystical bread the body of Christ. Thus as yet you see the matter is never the better on your side; have you any thing else? The Gospel, say you, makes for us, S. Paul accordeth also. Nay S. Paul utterly overthroweth your opinion: 1. Cor. 11. for when he speaketh of this Sacrament in one continued speech, he useth the word p DUR. S. Paul calls it so because it was now Christ, who wa● the living bread. WHIT. pag. 188. many of your fellows interpret it far otherwise, yea your sh●●t S. Paul overthroweth, 1. Cor. 10.16. The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Now not Christ was broken but the bread. bread, four several times, and that after Consecration; so that it appeareth▪ ●earely to have the proper nature of bread, though it be said to be the body of Christ. But yet you add: The words, the sentences, the whole convection of Scripture, do often most reverently repeat the bread, the wine, a notable miracle, heavenly food, his flesh▪ his body, his blood. In good earnest you discourse of these things with great reverence and shamefastness. For you would prove that in this Sacrament, there remaineth neither bread nor wine, but certain qualities of these things, hanging in the air, and voids of the things themselves. And for any notable miracle, I acknowledge none, but answer you with Austen. They may be honoured as religious things, De Trinit. lib. 3. c. 10. but they cannot be wondered at as q DUR. Augustine speaketh of these miracles which are made of a bodily substance, and so are sensible: now no such thing is seen in the Eucharist. WHIT. pag. 191. But if there were a true miracle, it would be sensible, and have the witness of the senses, as all other miracles of the Scriptures have. For things that are hid (saith Augustine) are not miracles. He writ three books of the miracles of the Scriptures, in which he hath not spoken one word of this miracle. Therefore he knew not the Popish Transubstantiation. minacles. No man ever denied, but that in the Sacrament heavenly food is both prepared, and offered to all the godly. But those heavenly and holy banquets, whereby our souls are nourished up to eternal life, you make profane and common, when you imagine, that Christ may be received and eaten like other meats, aswell of the r DUR. Not we, but the Scripture, the Fathers, and reason itself doth affirm it, but specially S. Paul. 1. Cor. 11.27. Whosoever eateth this bread. WHIT. pag▪ 195. None of these affirm it, and least of all S. Paul; for he saith not, whosoever eateth the body of Christ, but whosoever eateth this bread. wicked, as of the most devout men in the world; which is an horrible opinion, senseless and unsound. For that you add of flesh, body, and blood, I confess: for being the Sacraments of these things, they have their names given unto them: for signs of things (saith Augustine) are said to be the things of which they are signs. But, say you, here is nothing figurative, nothing obscure by doubtful speeches. True it is there is never a riddle in the words, no obscurity. For the obscurity that is, is not in the words, but in your interpretation of them, which ten Apollo's cannot so unfold and open, that things might agree and answer fitly one to another. What resteth yet, is it not that at length we find out some certain and true sense of these words? I hope, say you, Antiquity may be heard. I verily in this controversy will reject no Antiquity, no Council, no ancient Father, neither will I refuse any monument of true Antiquity. For that same reverend hoary head of Fathers which you speak of, could never come to the knowledge of this new doctrine of Transubstantiation lately hatched. If those holy Fathers and reverend Elders did now live, they would never acknowledge this monster, nor endure the sight of it, but judge it worthy to be abandoned into the utmost parts of the world. Whereas then you say, They cannot away with that, They say then they are betrayed. You trifle and say nothing to the purpose: for we can away well with this trial, and fear no treachery in it. But will call you very willingly to this reverend Antiquity, as to a bar of trial. Therefore if you please we will demand of those reverend Fathers, what they judge to be the meaning of those words, which you have produced for example sake. And seeing there is no necessity to collect all their sayings, some few of them shall speak, to give us a taste of the rest. s DUR. Tertullian speaketh not of that bread, which Christ in his last supper made his body, but of another bread, which was the figure of his body under the la. WHIT. pag. 2●0. The pla●e showeth very plainly that he speaketh of no other bread, then of tha● which Christ had said, this is my body: and which, in the night he was betrayed, he took, broke, and gave to his disciples. Tell us where under the law Christ ever said thus, or did thus with any bread? DUR. Bread & wine in the old Testament were Figures of Christ's body & blood: therefore in the new Testament of the bread must the true body of Christ be made, & of the urine his blood. WHIT. pag. 202. It will well follow from this, that Christ must have in the new Testament a true body & true blood: but it cannot be enforced hereupon, that it must be made of bread & wine. As if because their Sacraments were figures, therefore ours must be transubstantiated into the things themselves. Then will it follow, that because the flood, the ●edsea, & the cloud were types of our Baptism, therefore it should not be a figure or a sign, but be turned into th● very blood of Christ. Tertullian saith, Tertul. lib. 4 contra Marc. Christ professed his desire to eat the Pass●ouer, as his own, and having taken bread, and distributed it to his disciples, he made it his body, by saying▪ this is my body, that is, the figure or sign of my body. You acknowledge both Tertullians' words and his meaning. t DUR Augustine signifieth the Sacrament by the name of figure. WHIT pag 204. It is true, Christ gave the Sacrament to his disciples▪ but Augustine useth not the word Sacrament, but figure: to show that as no figure or sign is the thing whereof it is a fi u●e: so the bread is not properly the body, nor the w●ne the blood of Christ. Augustine saith, August. in Psal. 3. Christ admitted judas to that banquet, in which he commended to his disciples the figure of his body and blood. In another place also. u DUR Augustine disputeth in this p●ace against the Manichees, carping at Moses words. The blood is the soul of the beast. And saith, it is so spoke, as the Sacrament of the body of Christ is called his body, the blood is called the soul, because it is as the sign of the soul, which lieth hid in the blood, as the Sacramet is the sign of the body of Christ, which is contained in it WH T pag. 206. Nay I infer the contrary as the soul is not the blood, when it is o●● of the veins, & may be eaten; so Christ is not in the Sacrament. And as the blood is the sign of the soul, which is not in it: so is the Sacrament of the body which is not contained in it. The Lord verily doubted not to speak thus. Contra. Adimant. cap. 12. This is my body, when he gave the sign of his body. And that you may understand, that this was Augustine's perpetual tenor in interpreting of these words, and that he determined far diverse to you touching the eating of Christ's flesh: hear what he saith in his books of Christian Instruction, where he giveth divers precepts for the understanding of the phrase of the Scriptures. If, saith he, any sentence there seem to command any impious act, De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. or to forbid any duty tending to the profit or good of others, it is a figurative speech; unless, saith Christ, you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you: It seemeth to enjoin an * DUR Augustine did not think that it was an heinous thing, to eat the flesh of Christ, but to eat 〈◊〉 (as the Capernites thought) that is, torn and rend in pieces. WHIT. pag. 209. You answer somewhat as touching the fact, but nothing for the figure. But Augustine saith there is a figure, which cannot be, if the flesh of Christ be either eaten, as you say, whole, or chopped in pieces, as the Capernites affirm. And if it be an horrible fact to eat the small parts of Christ's bo●ie, is it not a more beastly & bloody thing to devour the whole body of Christ at one mor●el●? DUR. It is no more heinous for a Christian to eat the flesh of Christ whole, than it was for the blessed Virgin to conceive & to nourish it in her womb. WHIT. pag. 211. What is this, but as if you had said, It is no heinous thing to conceive and bring forth an Infant: Therefore it is none to devour it after it is borne. heinous act. It is therefore a figurative speech, commanding us to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Do you think this reverend old man dotes, or hath he not given a judicious interpretation, well agreeing unto the judgement of the ancient? I think matters yet go worse on your side, than they did before: but perhaps you will say, these are too ancient to serve your turn, hear then some of latter times. Theod. Theodoret a Grecian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogue● x DUR Theodoret's meaning is, that the signs have not lost their natural properties, though their nature be changed. WHIT. pag. 214. If the natural properties remain, then certainly their natures must, for essential properties can never be separated from ●heir natures: yea in the words following in this very place, Theodoret affirmeth, that the nature remaineth. The mystical bread, saith he, remaineth in the nature it first had, in the figure, and in the form. Mystical signs do not lose their proper nature. This very speech quite overthroweth your Transubstantiation, for if their proper nature remain, without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed. Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature, therefore there can be no Transubstantiation: but I will join to Theodoret Marcarius; whose homilies Morelius had out of the King's Library, and hath published them in Greek: and I suppose that you being a Friar, will not reject the testimony of so ancient a Monk: he writeth thus. In the Church, saith he, Marcar. homil. is offered bread and wine, y DUR. An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure, but the substance signified by that type or figure. WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is never properly the substance of the type, though sometime it be another type answering to it, and both of them are but similitudes & figures of the substance. And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same: as Heb. 9.24. The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaven, being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle. And in this sense do divers of the Fathers use the word Antitype: as Basil, Nazianzen, Theodoret, Chrysost. antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood. What, saith he, bread and wine? but bread is already turned into flesh, and wine into blood. Ought a Monk to speak after this manner? give you them so slender a name, as similitudes? Pardon me, Campian, this Monk was never used to speak after your manner, neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad? what say you now? are you pleased with this reverend hoar head of the Fathers? If you rest not here, it shall be free for you to appeal to any one of the whole reverend company of the holy Fathers; not one of them, no not any one of them, do I except against. For I make no doubt, but if they may be judges, you shall ever have the worst. From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniations upon us, and boast yourself of the bare names of the Fathers; for the Fathers both in this controversy and in many others are firm on our side. As for the Fathers of whom you name many, but I believe have read but a few, I thus answer you. We are not the servants of the Fathers, but the sons. When they prescribe us any thing out of the Law and divine authority, we obey them, as our parents. If they enjoin any thing against the voice of the heavenly truth, we have learned not to hearken to them, but to God. You as Vassals and base servants receive whatsoever the Fathers say, without judgement or reason, being afraid, as I think, either of the whip, or the halter, if every thing they speak be not Gospel with you. In few words, say you, this is their drift, unless thou wilt stand to their own judgement, that are guilty, there is no judgement to be had. Verily this fits you a great deal better than us, for you will receive no judgement but the judgement of the Pope, and Church of Rome; which Church and Pope we have proved long ago to be guilty of most heinous crimes, and there hath been a perpetual variance betwixt him and us. Is there any equity then in your demands that we should stand to his judgement, who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty, and an adversary to us? And well should we deserve to lose the cause, if we would be so witless contenders. Much truer speaketh Augustine, Let one matter encounter with another, Contra Maxim. lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another, one reason with another, by the authority of the holy Scriptures, which are not proper to either side, but common z DUR. How foolishly do you allege Augustine, who maketh the Scripture a witness of the truth, not a judge, as you would have it. WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witness, where shall we find a judge answerable to this witness? Is it the Church? Then must it be of more authority than the Scripture, which here you affirm not, neither may it be granted; for the Scripture is the word of God, therefore he that is the judge of it, must be the judge of God himself. To deny the Scriptures than the pre-eminence in judging, is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God, so the Scripture the word of God, hath the authority both of a witness and a judge. DUR. Augustine ever thought, that the Pope's judgement was the highest tribunal ●pon earth, where all controversies must be decided. WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine never thought so, but writ the contrary De civitat Dei lib. 15. ●ap. 3. The Lord, saith he, hath penned the Scripture, which is call●d Canonical, because it is of highest authority, yea he never once pressed the Arrians, either with the authority of the Pope, or of the Council, which undoubtedly he would have done, neither could he have done better, if the highest judgement had been in the Church. witnesses for both. And to their judgements would we have you to stand, not ours. As for other things you speak of, I pass them over, for you will reserve them for us till another place; and whereas you say, you have cited many and worthy places of Scripture, we have weighed those places in their balances, and have found them to light to prove what you proposed. And it is your use indeed, rather to take them by number, then by weight. But you charged us with scorning at this and shifting them off, we did nothing less; all we did was to free them from your cavils. We have, say you, alleged the interpretations of the Greek and Latin Churches. I confess it, but we have wrung all those weapons from you, and have by them battered all your holds. But say you, what say they then? marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther, or M. Philip Melangthon, or certainly M. Zuinglius, or without doubt M. Caluin, and M. Beza, have faithfully entreated upon those matters. Tell us, Friar, what should hinder, why every one of these you have nominated, may not as faithfully entreat of th●se things, as those who have lived before them in ages past? what wanted they, which the other had? what skill of art, what knowledge of the tongues, what other helps? there is not any one of these, but hath far surpassed in learning, and all deserved commendation, the whole society of jesuits. But why do I compare these burning lights, bright stars of piety and religion, with the base scum of your Doctors? and this now is another of your reasons, why you were so desirous to have audience in the University Schools. If you be, Campian, sodesirous, as you would make the world believe, I marvel why you are so long a coming: for our schools were ever open for you, but you could never find the way into them. If you hereafter come, you shall find many in our schools, that will encounter with you in all kind of learning. And here you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The third Reason, which is the nature of the Church. SO soon as the Adversary heard the Church named, he waxed wan: yet notwithstanding he hath devised one thing, which I would wish you to note well; that thereby you may perceive, the ruin and hard shifts of falsehood. The enemy perceived that both in the a Apoc. 2. Psal. 7. Isay q. & 32. Cant. 6. old and new b Mat. 13. Ephes. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. joan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament, there is every where * The scripture maketh honourable mention of the Church, therefore the Roman Church is that true Church of Christ, of which the Scripture speaketh so ●●ten. honourable mention made of the Church, and that it is called a holy city, a fruitful vineyard, an high hill, a direct path, the only dove, the kingdom of heaven, the spouse and body of Christ, the pillar of truth, the multitude unto which the holy Ghost being promised, poureth all things needful to salvation. The congregation, against all which the gates of hell shall never so prevail, that they shall utterly extinguish the same. The congregation, which who so repugneth, though he confess Christ with his mouth, yet hath he no more to do with Christ, then hath a Publican and heathen man. He durst not say any thing against this openly, neither would he seem to gainsay that Church, whereof the Scriptures so often make mention. He kept craftily still, the name of the Church, but the thing itself by describing it, he * This is false, for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away. For he hath portrayed the Church with such properties as do altogether hide it and make it, as if it were Plato his Idea; c Caluin. Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3. Apoc. 1.2 3. unapt to be seen with the senses, but subject to the privy insight and speculation of a very few men, such only as by special inspiration, might in their imagination comprehend this arrie body, and could likewise with a sharp eye discern such as are members of this chosen society, what is become of truth? where is plain dealing? what Scriptures? what just judgements, what Fathers describe the Church in this sort? * Particular Churches are visible: therefore the Catholic Church is visible. There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. john written by d Act. 8.10.11. & seq. Christ himself to the seven Churches which were in Asia. There are also diverse Epistles written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. john. and by others unto sundry Churches. In the Acts of the Apostles, we find mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged: what were those? were they known to God only, and to his Saints, or also to all sorts of Christians? But truly necessity is a deadly dart; pardon them: for they that all these * This is false, our doctrine hath been derived from Christ himself unto us, by the faithful of all ages. 1500 years cannot spy out so much, as one time, one village, one house imbrued with their doctrine, until that unhappy e Lutherus. Monk by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nun, dedicated to God by former solemn vow: or until that quarreling Swizer f Zuinglius. had conspired against his country: or until that infamous runagate g Calvinus. had undertaken an usurped authority in Geneva. If they will have any Church at all, they must needs fetch the same out of blind corners, and challenge those for their ancestors, whom they neither knew themselves, neither any mortal man hath seen, except they brag of such forefathers, who were manifest heretics, as Aerius, iovinianus, Henri. Pantal. in Chrenogra. helvidius, Vigillantius, the Image breakers, Berengarius, Waldensis, Lothardus, Wyclife, Husse, of all which they have begged some pieces of their devilish doctrine. Marvel not though I have not feared these smoders, which if I shall once come to the clear light, I shall easily expel. For this is our speech together. Tell me, dost thou believe as the Church doth, which flourished these many hundred years past? Yea verily: let us therefore discourse of our countries and times; what Church dost thou believe? The congregation of the faithful, whosenames are unknown, but it is apparent that many such have been: Is it apparent that many such have been. To whom it is apparent? To God; who saith so? we that have received our doctrine from God himself. This is a loud lie, how may I believe it? If thou were fervent in faith, thou should know this as assuredly, as thou dost that thou art alive: Can you refrain laughing when you hear such foolish answers? All Christian people are commanded to cleave fast unto the Church, they are warned to take heed, lest they be slain with the spiritual sword: they are bid keep peace in the house of God: to commit their souls in trust unto this pillar of truth, there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church: and yet all that, have so many men, so many hundred years, been ignorant, where that Church is, or who belong unto it; will they in darkness still stand upon that point? that where or in what place soever the Church is, there are contained therein, only saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heaven: whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate, he may think himself to be blameless in so doing: if he persuade himself that his said prelate hath committed any great offence, & by that means is excommunicated out of the Church. When I perceived that my adversaries invented such devices, and that they would not associate themselves to any Church, that heretofore hath been: and that when they were quite deprived of the thing itself, they would needs (though with much ado) keep still the bare name in possession, I solaced myself, with the hope I conceived of your ripe judgements, yea and I nothing doubted, but that assoon as you should find out even by their own confessions, these their juggling tricks, you would straightways, like plain honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares, framed of set purpose to work your overthrow. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the third Reason. WHat is it, Campian, you further bring unto us? you propound unto us the nature of the Church, wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vain and childish oratory, neither worthy the hearing of our University men, or answerable to the opinion that is held of you. As touching the Church there are many questions and great controversies, and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head. For your a DUR. It is well, that once you will acknowledge us to be catholics. WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name, my meaning is to give it you no otherwise, them usually the name of man is given to a dead and dry corpses, where nothing is but skin and bone. He is a Catholic, not who followeth the popish Apostasy, but that professeth the doctrine of Christ. Catholics being tossed with the boisterous storms of other disputations, have been willing to take b DUR. Is it so great a fault to fly into the haven of the Church? WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we tax you for, but that you cover all your errors by pretending the name of the Church. And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture, reprove and refel your heresies, you cry out you are the Church, and by that thinks to defend all things, though they be never so absurd. harbour in this haven of the Church. Here they dwell, here they place all their hopes of safety and victory, here they hide themselves, whensoever they are beaten out of the field. Therefore they fortify this sconce with all the skill they can, and strengthen it with munition on all sides; for which cause I marvel so much the more to find you, from whom so great things are expected, in this controversy to be so sleight and shallow; for you neither teach, nor conclude, nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours, which hath in it either forcible reason or proof. But it may be this is but your first skirmish, you will happily afterwards deal with us hand to hand; yet I will trace you out in your own steps, that I may lay hold of you, if happily I may find you any where certain. So soon, say you, as the adversary heard the Church but named, he waxed wan: yea Campian, it made him blush, when he perceived so chaste & holy a matron, so impiously & insolently to be abused by you. The Church doth ever expel you, and deny all commerce with you. Yet you as very audacious & importunate wooers give not over your suit to compass her. Sure there was no cause why your adversary should wax so wan, unless he feared some evil measure from such cutthroats as you are. Yet notwithstanding, say you, he hath devised one thing, which I would wish you to note well. You will sure acquaint us with some great and unheard of matter; verily I much desire to know what is this one thing: yet I fear it will prove stark nothing; and for all your throes, you will bring forth but a mouse. As for the honourable praises of the Church, you mention, we both acknowledge those, and speak far greater things of it: but verily they agree not to your Church at all; for it is the Babylonish whore, a branch cut off from the true Vine, a den of thieves, a broad way leading to destruction, the kingdom of hell, the body of Antichrist, a sink of errors, a great mother of fornications, the Church of the wicked, out of which every Christian ought to departed, which Christ shall one day fearfully destroy, and give her the just recompense of all her sins. In vain then do you reckon up the praises of the Church, unless you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church, which you shall never be able to do, so long as Rome standeth. He would not, say you, seem to gainsay the Church, he kept craftily still the name of the Church, but the thing itself by his definition he took quite away. We verily, Campian, c DUR. Why do you not then defend her authority, but diminish and lessen it, yea and horribly blaspheme, affirming that the spouse of Christ may err and be deceived? WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme, making the Church equal to God, to whom it is only peculiar not to err, not be deceived. For the Church may err though she be his Spouse, but not persist in any deadly error: as the Church of the Apostles did, when she thought her husband's kingdom was of this world, yea and after showed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles. reverence and honour the Church, as our mother, and in our definition we both retain the name, and clearly set out the nature of the thing itself. But you having lost the Church long since, do yet challenge the name and the vain title of the church. Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you; why I pray you? because we describe the Church by those properties which do altogether darken and hide it. We ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church, whose presence make a Church, and their absence mar or destroy a Church. But what are those properties which you affirm to darken and hide the Church? we verily judge this to be proper to the true Church, to d DUR. The Church is not to be sought for by these, as by notes, but they are to be learned from the Church. WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached, but in the Church, nor the Sacraments purely administered, that the Church is not to be known and found out by then? Yea the contrary followeth, because they are not elsewhere but in the Church: therefore by these notes the true Church is to be known and demonstrated. For if only Peripatetians profess the Philosophy of Aristotle, than that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians, and distinguisheth them from all other sects of Philosophers. DUR. Thus to search out the Church, is but to seek out one unknown thing by another, which is more unknown. WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture were more hidden and unknown then the Church, and the Scripture could better be known by the Church, than it by the Scripture: undoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church; and then is a thing hknowne, when the cause is known. 2. I here are many and divers Churches, but there is but one constant Scripture always like itself. 3. If at any time there was ever doubt made of the Scripture; yet there have been many more questions and doubts concerning the Church. Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon, a rule; now the rule as it is straighter, so is it more certain than the thing that is squared by it. DUR. The notes of the Church ought to be such, as are agreed upon among all, as are proper to it, neither can be challenged probably by any other Church. WHIT. pag. 356. I confess as much, and such are our notes in all things; whereas yours, are nothing lest. DUR. But every sect layeth claim to your notes. WHIT. pag. 256. What then, what if you lay claim to the things I possess, are they therefore not mine own? Be it that heretics do lay claim to the Scriptures, yet they do it without all show of reason, and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted. hear the word of Christ, and keep it, to use wholly and purely those Sacraments, which Christ, when he departed from his Church, left her, as a pledge of his love to her, and as a proof of her loyalty to him. These we maintain as the most true and substantial properties of the Church, and this definition, made of the natural and inbred principles and grounds of the thing, which we define, you shall never be able to overthrow. I pray you what is there here that hideth the Church? doth the word of God; do the Sacraments hide the Church? yea these are they that make the c DUR. Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many years together? WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did never lie so hid, but it was discerned by your Pope, unless for so many years he persecuted shadows. Church appear as clear as any thing at noon day, these give unto the Church strength, health and beauty: abolish these, there will remain nothing but the carcase of the Church. What drowsy dream than is this, you tell us of an airy body? as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth; we never doubted but the Church ever hath been, and ever shall be upon the earth: though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so clear that it may be seen of all: at another time is so obscured & ever shadowed, that one can hardly know it. But no Church pleaseth you, save that which is continually flourishing, and which is visible to all men's eyes, which hath a continual succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning, and which is subject to the Pope. Now Campian, as for you, you come to late to tell us of these frantic popish dreams; we have heard, discussed, and distolued them, above a thousand times. Do you think you are able to make us believe, that the state of the Church is such, that it cannot be hid, that treachery should prevail nothing against it, an open enemy nothing, Antichrist himself nothing? These can never quite overthrow the Church, they may drive it to straits and thrust it into corners. August. 4.8. Augustine compareth the Church to the Moon, which sometime while it is enlightened by the Sunbeams, shineth out, a● another time it is deprived of the greatest part of the light, and sometime shineth not at all. So the Church sometime shineth most brightly, sometime is more obscured, sometime hardly appeareth, and her whole course is continually gaining and losing of light. Will you that I manifest it to you by examples? while David and Solomon reigned, the Church flourished in Israel; but when Ahab reigned, the face of the Church was so far obscured, that the most divine Prophet f DUR. Elias spoke not of the whole Church, but of the kingdom of Israel, wherein he lived. WHIT. pag. 261. He lived at that time, not in the kingdom of Israel, but in the mountain of God, Mount Horeb. 1. King. 19.8. But grant he spoke of Israel only: it is no less for our purpose. For that which happened there, that no good men appeared, though many lay hid, so it may fall out in other churches, and at other times, that none or few of the faithful appear; yet God may have a multitude of unknown believers. Eliah complained that there was not one remaining save himself. If there could be such a havoc made of the Church, 1 King. 14.10. hhm. 10.3. that of all that great number of the godly, there was scarce one to be seen, (though there was a good sum remaining of them.) it need be no wonder that in the kingdom of Antichrist, who surpasseth all Ahabs' and jezabels in all brabarous cruelty, that the Church should be so wasted, that there should appear a marvelous scarcity of faithful men. And yet could Antichrist in that great havoc of religion and the Church, never so far prevail, but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints, who never bowed their knees to the beast, neither ever received the mark of the beast. Let us pass along to those times when Christ lived upon the earth, and consider the state of the Church of jerusalem. For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome, then that, as the state of it was, when Christ did perform the work of our salvation. They had the Scripture, they were a people zealous of the law, they had the Temple, they had levites, Priests, yea a high Priest; what was wanting here to make a perfect Church? Christ at length showeth himself openly, and bringeth that happy message of salvation; this very Church hated, persecuted, cursed, and in the end killed this Christ, the Son of God, the lagat of his Father, the teacher of celestial doctrine; the author of our salvation. This Church then, Campian, was it a true Church or no, what think you? If it was, than the true Church hated Christ, and judged him worthy of death. If it was not, then where and what is the true Church? for Christ at the first had a very small number, that if you answer g DUR. The Church undoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes. WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our advantage; it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawful succession ordained of the Lord; who also had the place, the name, the dignity, and magnificent ornaments of the Church; but it was in a few, who after a sort were cut off from the Church, it is a thing without question, that the Church is not always to be sought for in a visible multitude, and an outward succession of men: but often times in obscure places, and amongst a very few. Christ and his company was the Church, than you fall into that crime, which you reprove us for. If then this might befall the h DUR. That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusal●●●, cannot befall to the Church of Christ, whieth the Prophets have plainly foretold should never perish. Isay. 19.21. Icrem. 31.31. Eze●. 37.26. WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Jerusalem was not the Church of Christ? what then happened unto it, which may not befall my others? And for the Prophecies you recier, they belong to the company of the elect, and not to your popish Church to which the Lord never promised any such thing. Christ verily will never endure that his Church should be abolished or perish: but it is one thing for it to perish, and another to lie hid for a time, and not to be seen; he hath promised it shall ever be preserved, not that it shall ever be visible and glorious. DUR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world. WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall never be hid, nor shut up in a few? nothing less: for he hath promised that wheresoever two or three are gathered together in his name, he will be in the midst of them. Church of Jerusalem, that though it had, and by continued succession enjoyed the name of the Church, yet in very truth it was nothing else but a cave and den of thieves: I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to itself, why it may not be said long agate to have lost the body of the Church, though it keep still the vizard, the name, and the vestments of the Church. What if the Romish Church condemned Luther? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretic, and that it is the Catholic Church? The Church of jerusalem condemned Christ, and him and his they would have denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themselves out of those straits, they were brought into. But happily they will say, there is no such thing to be found in Christ's new Church. 2. Thess. 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasy, that should be before Christ's coming to judgement, i DUR. The Fathers have understood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Roman Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Jerusalem (a man you much esteem) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasy from the true faith, so doth Chrysostome, Oecumenius, so many others. Yea your Divines of Rheims have so expounded it. which Apostafie is from religion and the Church, as the most ancient Fathers do understand it: and Christ prophesied evidently of the small number of his. Luke. 18.8. When the Son of man shall come shall he find k DUR. Augustine de vultat. Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith, WE understand this speech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the small number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano●. WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistook the place, must we rest in their exposition? we have Nazianzene count Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan upon this place against them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked, and the small number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked shall be great, but of the godly small? faith on the earth? If hardly any faith shall remain on the earth, and the Church cannot be said to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth necessarily that when Christ cometh, their number shall be very small, who may truly be called the Church. You have now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church unto us, unless you think yourself better able to puttray it, than the holy Ghost himself could do, who hath set out the Church in far better colours and manner, than I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walls. But, say you, there are Epistles of Christ written to the seven Churches which were in Asia; there are also divers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. john, and by others unto sundry Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles we find mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? These were not known to God only, but also to all Christians: who ever denied that? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians, to which Paul writ, were particular visible Churches. Did we ever seem to make question whether a Church might be visible or no? we verily call all those visible and apparent Churches, which profess the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commanded by Christ. And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England, Scotland, Germany, France, and other parts of Christendom, though it grieve you jesuits they should be so visible and apparent. But what kind of reasoning is this? l DUR. All particular Churches on which the Catholic Church consisteth, as on parts, are visible: therefore the Catholic Church itself is visible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholic, are not visible: because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times past, and of those which shall be in the time to come. But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it must be visible: nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible, it cannot, for when all the parts are grown into o●●, then is the whole visible, but not each several part; so when the several parts may be seen, the whole cannot be seen, because the parts are no●●ow become one. So the contrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible, the whole cannot be seen. Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible: therefore the Catholic Church is ever visible. Have you learned such Logic as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of jesuits? or do you, Campian, think that these manner of Allegations should go for proofs in the ears of our University men? but where are those Churches now, which were then so flourishing? Show me the Church of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinth's, and the rest. Now they are no where to be seen, and are no longer Churches. And that which we have seen already befall those Churches, teach us, I pray you, how it may not also betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church shall be safe: neither shall the downfall of any city or Empire ever be able to abolish it. And at this day there are many flourishing Churches, which are equal to your falsely called Catholic Church, for the number, & undoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold. But you say, That for 1500. years we could not spy out one town, one village, one house seasoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very false, m DUR. The Arrians, M●●cedonians, and all other ancient heretics may by the same probability say as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretic can prove the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may answer the same which we do, for every Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine, may profess that all cities, village●, 〈◊〉 which were religious, were seasoned with their doctrine. for in the Apostles time, all Churches, all cities, all towns, every family embraced the same faith and religion which we now profess. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrine n DUR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sun is so very swift, that we may see it hath moved, though we cannot discern the moving of it: so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceive by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolical; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpose. And it were too long to tell all, yet hear some, Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equal to other Bishops though much was given to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Christian world was divided into four Provinces, when he became the chief of the patriarchs, after this he began to challenge authority over other Churches, and for that purpose counterfeited the Council of Nice: but he was repressed by the African Council. Then Gregory the great, greatly inveighed against john of Constantinople, because he sought the name of universal Bishop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist. Lastly, Boniface the eight with a great sum obtained that honour of Phocas the Parricide. And since that he grew to that height, that he made not only Churches and Kings, but the Christian Emperor himself to kiss his feet. But see another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proveth, who rend a vail in pieces, because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint. But in time they were received into the Church, but no honour given them: yet after that, good Bishops broke them and cast them out again; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbade them to be worshipped, we commend you, but that you broke them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9 Lastly the second Nicene Council decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiously to be worshipped. And thus hath it succeeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell●e saying; The mystery of iniquity doth already work. 2. Thess. 2.7. began to be corrupted, and divers superstitions spread far and near; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, resist, 2. Thess. 2.7. until that mystery of iniquity, which took rooting in the very Apostles time, spread itself o DUR. What can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously, when he did so ●●●ell of a departing, and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the mystery of iniquity should spread itself over the Church? by all the parts of the Church, and at length possessed it wholly. Yet Antichrist that man of sin, could never prevail so far, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and those, whose names were written in the book of life, did utterly abhor all those filthy and wicked superstitions of Antichrist. For in the Church of Rome itself even in the worth times of it, yet many were ever found, who worshipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themselves unpolluted with that horrible Idolatry. And this can histories of all times witness, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon up to you, many houses, villages, towns, cities, and countries, where Christ had many and populous Churches. The p DUR. This is very false, for in the Florentine Council the Emperor Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and embraced the Roman faith, yea and at this day they descent from us in few things, as Icremy the Patriarch of Constantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted schismatics, or why obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Council of Trent? the Pope by all means hath sought to have them subject to him, but they still contemn him to his no small grief. It is true, the Emperor, the Patriarch, and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florentine Council. They agreed with them in many things, ●●●hers they dissented; your Transubstantiation they utterly renounced. At that time jesaphus their Patriarch suddenly died. Eugenius the Pope instantly urged a new election. They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople. See you not how well they agree? I have a book of yours, not of Ieremies, neither will a small thing make me believe it is his: for both the Grecians, and particularly he, hath giver great approbation of our Churches, as we find it in his works published both in Greek and Latin. Greek Church could never yet be brought to join itself to your Church, and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you, as ever our Church was. And yet you so forge these things, as if the Pope of Rome long ago had had the whole world under his subjection. Until that unhappy Monk, as you say, by his incestuous marriage had deflowered a Nun, dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 sole●●●● 〈◊〉 or until that quarreling Sw●●● had conspired against his country, or that infamous ●●●●gate had undertaken an usurped authority in Ge●●●●. So, Campian, go on to rail and revile every good man, power out the gall of your bitterness, seeing you have undertaken to spend all your venomous darts upon them. Luther's name is written in the book of life; and his memory shall ever be sacred among all good men, and your reproaches shall not be able to pierce or wound him. It is a true saying, that a false repreach pierceth not the skin: you call him Monk, & yourself is but a Friar; now Monks were ever accounted more honest than Friars. But he by incestuous marriage deflowered 〈◊〉 Nom●●●, dedicated to God by solemn vow. q DUR. But you go against S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry, having broken their first saith; which is understood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how prove you that the Apostle understandeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the scope of the place showeth us the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widows, whom he persuadeth to marry, should be taken into that office; only such as were threescore years old, who may well abstain from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he showeth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather than they should not many, they would wa● wa●●on against Christ, and break their first faith, which is not their vow, but the profession of Christian religion, which such light buswives would easily co●●●●●, that they might enjoy their pleasures. And that this is his meaning the 1●. verse showeth: For certain are already turned back after Satan; showing what some had done, he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did also expound these words, (as indeed they do not) yet the argument is very weak in divinity: The Fathers have thus expounded it, therefore the exposition is true. Luther indeed took to wife in holy wedlock, a Virgin that once was entangled by a rash & superstitious vow, after she had been more rightly instructed in the truth of religion. Exclaim bitterly as you list. Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler, seeing yourself is a player of a Price. But tell us wherein he did ever show himself such a cutter? forsooth he boldly ventured his life with his fellow citizens. Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam. Ephes. lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the command of the Senate went to war against the enemies of his country & religion, where he perished by cruel thieves, who lay in wait for him, what did he unbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithful Pastor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conspiracy against his country, besides that it is a shameless lie, I wonder why you should object such a crime to him, seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country. As for Caluin whom you call a seareback: runagate, the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man, and a most constant servant of the Lord: who was as far from lewdness and dishonastie, as you are from shamefastness and honesty. If he was seared, S. Paul was so too, Gal. 6.17. yea & divers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell us, where you have lived for these divers years, and remember what yourself were. Caluin never forsook the Church, he once took upon him to govern, but there he lived with the special love of all, and there he ended his days: but why do I answer you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men, whom you shall never justly defame, though you burst your heart with lying. But let us now hear your communication as you call it. And here you demand, Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred yours? we answer, we will subscribe: but say you, to which Church? I answer r DUR. He did not demand whether you would subscribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but whether to that Church, which hath flourished these many hundred years; which if you would, you must needs yield as overcome, when none but ours have flourished thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred years: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h●● the name of ●●e church: 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine: but you shall never prove 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place, Sea, & succession, no more than Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing upon the earth. to the Church which is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles: that is, to the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and all those famous and excellent Churches of which we read in the Epistles written by the Apostles, yea even to the ancient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like than an apple to an oyster. Finally we subscribe to those Churches, of whom we read in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine, which the Apostles taught among them, sound & uncorrupt. These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine, were true Churches; & to those Churches we have and ever will subscribe. And by this I think we have cut off the progress of your conference, for we have not given you such an answer as you feigned to yourself. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand. but no answer will please you, unless we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church: but that we justly disclaim, because it hath foully corrupted the ●●●stles writing. You must find you out other subscribers, Campian, for we will subscribe to none but the Apostolical Churches. But one thing, say you, they will still stand upon in darkness, that where and in what place soever the Church is, there are conceived therein only Saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heaven. We speak not so of the Church as you writ: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church, that it is sometimes s DUR. I believe only one Catholic Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which containeth both the elect, and as many as profess true religion. Now you teach me to believe two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the unity of the Church, no more than when the Church is said to be m●●●an and u●●●phant, universal and particular. For the visible and ●●uisible Church make but one: called visible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is seen and discerned; invisible because God's election and the elects faith is not to be seen with eyes. And this distinction we have, Esay. 1.9. Matth. 22.14. As for the Creeds you mention, we believe them in this point aswell as you. But tell us; this one Catholic Church what is it? If you restrain the name to the visible Church; first, you exclude both that in heaven of the Saints, and that which shall be of these which a●e unborn, and yet do belong to the Catholic Church: secondly you place faith in the sense, which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seen, Heb. 11.1. As for that Catholic Church which we believe, it is the company of all the elect, even as many as have been from the beginning of the world, and shall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apostolic and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no profane and wicked men, no hypocrites; because they have no fellowship with Christ. For the holy Church is the mystical body of Christ, of which body no member can at any time perish. visible and sometimes invisible. In a particular visible Church, of which they are members, who will hear the Word, and receive the Sacraments: we confess there are many feigned Christians, who had rather have the vizard of faith, then true faith indeed. An invisible Church we affirm to contain only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospel. These though they may be seen as long as they live amongst men, seeing they are men as others be, yet because neither their faith nor God's love, which maketh them members of the Church, is visible, we affirm that this Church, consisting of holy and faithful men, is altogether invisible. Christ is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca● join themselves, we then acknowledge another Church besides that, which containeth only Saints (for so should there be no visible Church at all) but what company of men soever upon the earth doth profess the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets, we profess that to be the true Church of Christ, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the first who did invent and devise these things, as you say of us, but are ready to prove them both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then yourself, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our University men, and promise to yourself great things from us, but see you bring more dexterity of wit, or else without doubt you can never deceive us with this shallow conceit. If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our University men, I persuade myself, they would not only tear to pieces these your childish shifts, but do as much by you too, for abusing so shamefully their learned conceits. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The fourth Reason, which is general Counsels. AGreat controversy for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law, which in the Primitive Church much moved the minds of faithful people, was by a Council gathered together, of the Apostles and some elders decided. Children then believed their Parents, and sheep their Shepherds, charging them in this sort: a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost, and us; after this there were holden four general Counsels of ancient Fathers, for the rooting out of heresy, which budded up abundantly in every age, which were of such authority above b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000 years ago, that * Gregory made the four Counsels, equal to the Evangelists. great honour was attributed unto them, as though it had been unto the four Gospels. I will seek no further; even here in our own Country by an c Anno 1. Elizab. act of Parliament, the self same Counsels do retain still their former force, and pure authority: which said act I will here allege: And call thee, thyself O England, my most loving Country, to witness. If thou reverence, as thou pretendest, those Counsels, Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act. 4. & 16. Constan. c. 5. Eph. conc. in epist. ad Nestorium. Nic. con. 14 Chal. act. 11 Nic. conc. apud. Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can. 4.15.23 then wilt thou yield up the supremacy to the Bishop of the chief sea, that is, to Saint Peter. Then wilt thou acknowledge upon the altar, the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heaven to make intercession to Christ for thee. Then wilt thou restrain these lecherous Apostates from their filthy carnal copulation, and open incest. Then wilt thou build up many things, which now thou pullest down, and wish many things undone, which now thou dost. Moreover, I promise and undertake, as occasion and time shall serve, to prove, that the * Campian makes all Synods equal with the Gospel. Counsels holden at other times, and namely the Council of Trent, have been of equal authority and credit with the four first Counsels. Wherefore then should I not come to this place of trial, securely and courageously, to mark into what corner my enemy will creep, seeing I am * This is false, ancient Counsels do not confirm the Romish faith. aided with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Counsels? For I will allege both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside, and also most substantially proved, which he dare not contemptuously reject. He will perhaps go about to trifle out the time, with multiplying of many words: but if you be the men that I have always taken you for, you will take so good heed unto him, that he shall neither rob you of your ears nor eyes. If there shall be any at all so mad, as to oppose himself against the sages of all Christendom, and those, such men as for holiness of life learning and antiquity, are too great to be challenged; I would willingly behold that brazen face, the which when I shall sh●w you, I will leave the rest to your imaginations. In the mean while, I will give you this caveat, that whosoever affirmeth, that a general Council, * The Council of Trent was neither a full Council, nor lawfully held. And so both the Emperor and the French King have judged. Sleidan. anno 1551. lib. 33. The assembly of certain men. duly and orderly kept, and finished, is of no force or authority, the same man seemeth to me, to be one of no judgement, nor of any wit; and not only an ass in divinity, but also void of discretion in worldly policy. If ever the spirit of God illuminated the Church, surely then that time is most fit to send down the holy Ghost, when the religion, perfection, knowledge, wisdom and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendom, are assembled together into one City: and using all means both divine and human, whereby the truth may be searched out, Matth 18. they call upon the holy Ghost, promised e Joh. 14. by God unto them, that by his assistance, they may establish godly laws, for the safe and wise government of the Church. Now let there some petty pert heretical Doctor leap out, let him look up stately, let him scorn and mock, let him lay all shame aside, let him saucily give judgement of his own judges, what game, what pastime shall he make; we have spied out such a one, even Martin f Lib. de captain. Bab. Luther, who saith, that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men (ye may well imagine his own, and Philip Melancthons') if they come together in Christ's name, than he did of all general Counsels. O worthy company! We have found out also, another of the same crew, to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini. Kemnitius, who hath undertaken to examine the Council of Trent, by his own unreasonable giddy brain: what hath he gained? an evil name: so that he, except he prevent it by recanting, shall be buried for an heretic with Arrius: whereas the Council of Trent, the elder it waxeth, by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually. * The famous praises of the Council of Trent. O good Lord, with what diversity of people out of all countries, with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendom, with what excellency of Kings and Commonweals, with what profound divines, with what * Two Bishops were taken in adultery and put to death. Illyric. devotion, with what lamentations, with what abstinence and fasting, with what flowers of Universities, with what knowledge of strange tongues, with what sharp wits, with what study, with what endless reading, with what store of virtues and exercises was that sacred place replenished? I heard with my own ears Bishops rejoice, being men of great birth and very well learned, of which, one was Anthony Archbishop of prague (who created me Priest) for that they had been brought up certain years in that famous School; so that they acknowledged no benefit that ever the Emperor Ferdinando bestowed on them (to whom otherwise also they thought themselves no little beholding) to be more princely and bountiful, than this was, that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia, they sat in the Council of Trent, together with the rest of the Fathers there present. This thing the Emperor full well perceived, who greeted them in this sort at their return: We have maintained you in an exceeding good School, why made the adversaries no haste hither, being promised to go and come safe; that they might openly have confuted them, against whom they croak like Toads out of their holes. They have broken promise (say they) with hus and Hierome, who? the heads of the Council of Constance. That is a lie: joh. Huss. for they made them no promise. And yet hus had not been put to death; if that he, false and treacherous villain as he was, not only by an escape, which the Emperor Sigismundus had forbidden him upon pain of death; and being taken, was brought back again: but also by * This is false, for he broke no conditions. breaking certain covenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct: hus was hedged in for his hasty knavery; for whereas at his country in Bohem, he had stirred up barbarous tumults, and was therefore commanded to appear before the general Council at Constance, he contemned the prerogative of the Council, and made suit for a safe conduct to the Emperor. The * Note. Emperor sealed him one; all Christendom, which is greater than the Emperor, unsealed it again: the arch heretic would not recant, and therefore he was burnt: Hierome of prague. As for Hierome of prague, he came privately without any safe conduct at all to the Council of Constance, and being apprehended did appear, and had liberty to say what he could, and was very courteously entreated, and suffered to go abroad at his pleasure. He was cured of his disease, and abjured his heresy, he fell again, and therefore was burnt. But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memory, this one example amongst six hundred? Anno 1518 Let them peruse their chronicles: Martin Luther, one hated both of God and man, personally appeared at Augusta before the Cardinal Caietane, and did he not belch forth of his venomous gorge, what poisoned speeches he could, and at length being protected with the Emperor Maximilians safe conduct, went he not safe away? Anno 1521 The same Martin Luther being sent for, to come to Worms, though he had both the Emperor, and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies, did he not upon the emperors word come and go safe? Finally, did not the ringleaders of the Lutherans and Zwinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth, the open enemy to all heretics, Conqueror, and sovereign, upon a truce granted them, exhibit at an assembly at Augusta, August. confess. Vide acta Conc. Trid. the confession of their faith, which before they had so often altered, and went they not without hurt away? Likewise the council of Trent provided for the adversary most large warrants to come and go safe, but he would not use the same. He beasteth forsooth of himself in corners, where when he can utter three greek words, he may seem to be a great learned man: He flies from the light, which would make a slender scholar to be accounted learned, and so advance him to seats of great dignity. Let them purchase for us English Catholics, if they love their soul's health, * There is not the same reason. such a safe conduct in writing: we will not allege hus for our excuse, but make our speedy repair to the court, putting our whole trust in the Queen's majesties word. But that I may return thither from whence I digressed: All general Counsels are on my side, the first, the last, the rest; these shallbe my weapons. Let the adversary expect, a well headed dart, which he shall never be able to shake off. God grant that Satan in him may be quite overthrown, and Christ revine. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the fourth Reason. THE next place is concerning Counsels, not much differing from the former; for what is a Council but the flower, and as it were a little model of the whole Church? And therefore whatsoever may be said of Counsels, it appertaineth to the nature of the Church; but when as these for more plainness sake, are sometimes distinguished, I do easily permit you to propound them distinctly. a DUR. But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost, speaking by Counsels, which all the ancient Fathers have had in singular respect. WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse us falsely, for howsoever we assent not with you, who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equal authority; because we know that both they might, and also have grossly erred in many things, as the Fathers have confessed, and ye yourselves cannot deny; yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures, we embrace their authority▪ and have them in singular respect, and estination. And in preferring the Scripture before them, we follow but the example of the Fathers. August. de Baptis. contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim. lib. 3▪ cap. 14. & de unitat. Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron. in Galatas. Ambros. Epist. 32. Now the name of Counsels is honourable, their credit singular, and their authority of great esteem, and you do never more insolently brag, then in this place: for when you do but name Counsels, you think that you have sufficiently confuted your adversaries, and promise unto yourself assured victory. Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Counsels, wondering that b DUR. Nazianzene d●d not judge inturiously nor writet● bitterly of Counsels, as you suppose; but only affirmed that the fraud and malice of the heretics of those times, hindered the assembling of lawful Counsels. WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you have not read his Epistle, or but very sle●gtly, ●eeing he therein plainly set●eth down two reasons why he absented himself from the Council, when he was called: f●●st the weakness of his body, and secondly, his judgement concerning Counsels: which was, that he thought such assemblies were to be avoided, because he had seen no good of any Synod, and that hereby occasions of evils were rather increased then taken away. DUR. Yea but he hath shened his contrary judgement writing his Cledonius. WHIT. Nothing less: but only he affirmeth that he would subscribe to the Apollinarian heretics, if they could prove that they were received of the west Council; which he knew they could not. Nazianzene, Nazianz. Epist. 4●. ad Procop. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. should so unjustly judge, and so injuriously write of them. For he saith, that he had deliberated with himself and fully resolved to avoid Episcopal Convocations, because he had never seen a good issue of any Synod. Which howsoever it hath been true of many, which by reason of the ambition, and busy meddling of some, have not taken away ancient controversies, but rather have sowed the seed of new contentions: yet many Counsels have been approved and commended by their most wished event. Whereas therefore you appeal to Counsels, we will follow you in many, & in their most weighty censures and decrees: for in all neither do you yourselves judge it necessary. But let us now hear you discoursing concerning Counsels. A weighty question, (say you) concerning lawful ceremonies, was cleared in a Council of the Apostles and Fld●rs assembled together. The children believed their Parents, and the Sheep their Shepherd, commanding in this form of speech; It bathe pleased the holy Ghost and us. Where you make mention of a Council most excellent, and above all exceptions: in which nothing was done rashly, perversely, and factiously (as sometimes in other Counsels it hath been accustomed) but all things divinely, and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself. and therefore if we did not believe this Council, we were unworthy of the name, either of children or of sheep. This Council resolved that important question concerning ceremonies, and freed the necks of Christians from that most grievous yoke of Mosaical rites: whereby the greater cause of grief is offered us by you, who have imposed upon the Church, contrary to the express commandment of this Council, another yoke much more intolerable, then that of Moses. For this is clear and manifest, that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you, and imposed upon the consciences of men, are twice as many, as those which in time past Moses by God's express commandment enjoined unto the people of Israel. August. ad januar. And this is that of which c DUR. Angustine when he writ this, did not after your manner carp at Ecclesiastical ceremonies, but showeth that be would not have them instituted at every man's pleasure. For in his first Epistle to Ianuariu● he thus writeth. If the whole Church use any of these, it i● insolent madness to dispute, whether such a thing is to be done or no? WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time, and would have us rest contented with those few ceremonies, which are commended unto us in the Scriptures. Ad januar. Epist. 118. cap. 1. & Epist. 119.19. His words which you allege, I willingly embrace; for we use and esteem those ceremonies, which all Churches have received as necessary for order and comeliness. But of this kind yours are not, neither can you wrist those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approve your Traditions: seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ. Augustine long agone complained, namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies, the state of Christians, was become worse than the state of the jews themselves, which if Augustine spoke of the ceremonies of his time, how much more would he have thus complained, had he seen the great multitudes, which were afterwards added to them. But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning & judgement of the holy Ghost, did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himself had ordained, were to be abolished, how intolerable is your boldness, who contrary to the decree of this spirit, and Council have obtruded, upon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies. Did the Lord therefore abolish his own ceremonies, that he might establish yours? did he abrogate a few, that he might bring in a multitude? did he ease us of lighter, that he might impose heavier. Whereby it appeareth that the divine institution of this Council, which, as it was before all other in time, so above all other in excellency, is most wickedly by you violated. And is it to be thought possible, that you, who have demeaned yourselves so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors, will be more respective towards others? Nay there is not any Council, which you have not long ago trodden under feet, so that every one of you, are enfolded in a thousand excommunications. And dare you, Campian, notwithstanding make mention of Counsels, which if they were in any force, surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church, than Publicans and Pagans. There followeth this, say you, for the rooting out of heresy, the four general Counsels of the ancient Fathers, which were of such strength and authority, that a thousand years since, they were had in singular account even as God's word itself. And we likewise do freely confess, that the authority of those four Counsels was good and profitable. Luthe. de Concil. Read what learned Luther hath writ of those four general Counsels, and so also you may know our judgement of them. Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent unto Gregory, Gregor. lib. 1. Epist. 24. who professeth that he doth embrace and reverence these four Counsels, as the four books of the holy Gospel. For this were rather to violate the Gospel, then to reverence the Counsels. Although as I take it, Gregory's meaning was, that what was decreed and concluded in these four Counsels, out of God's word against Arriu●, Eu●●onius, Macedonius, Nostorius, Eutyches, and Diosc●ru●, that he firmly embraced, and would not suffer these decreet, which are approved by the evangelical writings, and in which this impious heresy is condemned, to be revoked and repealed no more than the Gospel itself, neither can I imagine that it was Gregory's purpose to affirm this of all these Counsels, that the Council of Nice, Constantin●ple, Ephesus and Chalced●n, were fully equal unto the holy Gospel in authority and dignity. And so we ourselves do not doubt, that those things which these Fathers have determined against those heretics, before named concerning the consubstantial subsistence of the Father and the Son, of the divinity of the holy Ghost, of the one person of Christ in two natures, are as true as the Gospel itself; not because these Counsels so judged and concluded, but because in the Gospel, the self same doctrine of faith is delivered. Further you say, That also i●●●r own country, by our Parliaments, the same Counsels retain their ancient right. It is true indeed, that in these and all other things, which they propound, if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures, they do still retain their ancient right and dignity. But lest you should suppose that we did ever attribute thus much to these Counsels, that we judge all that to be necessarily embraced, whatsoever they have decreed; hear you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these general Counsels. Counsels, not only may err, but also sometimes have erred, In the Artic. of Religion, Artic. 21. and that in these things, which belong to the rule of piety, and therefore whatsoever by them is decreed as necessary to salvation, hath no vertus nor authority, unless it may be showed that it is taken ou● of the holy Scriptures. Cite you now these words, and then contest (as you call it) your sweet country. And in like manner, this your most dear country in which you were borne, brought up and graced, doth contest, entreat, and beseech you, by all those things, which are unto you most swee●e and best esteemed, that you desist any more in this b●dde cause to be troublesome unto her; that you will no● corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion; that you will make more precious account of her dignity, then of a foreign enemy: and that you would at length return thither, from whence you have stra●ed. And surely you would not contemn this speech of your country, if you could, even for a little space, lay aside, that prejudicate opinion which you have sucked from Rome, and brought with you hither into England. But let us hear, what is this your contestation? If, say you, you will re●erence these four● Counsels, you will chiefly hon●r the Bishop of the chief● S●●, that is Peter. And so do we ascribe great honour, unto Peter, and that worthily; neither do we contend with you about him; but this affirm, that those things which were proper unto Peter, cannot in any wise appertain to your Pope, who was never like either Peter or Paul. And in truth what madness is this, so insolently to brag of Peter's great virtues, when in the mean time, you cannot prove that your Popes are endued with any such? Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits, will think that Peter's faith, piety, and all the rest of his virtues, have been derived to your Pope by a lineal descent, from so many other Popes, of whom a great number, were not men, but monsters? This doubtless is a gross dotage, and fit to be taken away, Quovis helleboro dignum. with the mad man's purge, and as one saith, for those diseases, reprehension is the best ma●●●r of cure. Should I entitle your Gregori● the 13. who now governeth at Rome, with the name of Peter? doth he teach? doth he feed Christ's sheep? surely he cannot. Doth he perform the duty of an Apostle, or of a Bishop? nothing less. How therefore doth he demean himself? Sitting in the Vatican, he provoketh to war, moveth seditions, armeth subjects against their Princes, and filleth the whole world with vpro●●●●▪ Did Peter thus behave himself? is this to be Peter? can you deny that these things be true, and shall I then yield unto him the like honour, that is due to Peter, being so unlike him in conditions? But let us further examine your words; You will (say you) chiefly honour the Bishop of the chief Sea, that is Peter; but by what Council do you prove that necessary? you allege the Council of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chief Sea, or of Peter; neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop, than that decree of Nicene Synod: for it matcheth all metropolitans and patriarchs in an equal rank of honour with the Bishop of Rome; neither doth it attribute any more to him, then unto the metropolitans of Antioch, Alexandria, and the rest of the other Provinces. If you please, you shall hear the words of the Council: Concil. Nicen. Can. 6. d DUR. This cause by you alleged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Roman Sea over all Churches. For when as the Fathers to prove the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria, allege the custom of the Church of Rome, they show hereby that Alexandria dependeth upon Rome; as the mother Church from which she hath all her authority. And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Pope's Legate in the Council of Chalcedon, & is also proved by the 39 Canon translated out of Arabic into Latin. The same Fathers likewise assembled at Sardis approved the Supremacy of the Roman Sea. WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon, wherein their own proper limits of jurisdiction are assigned to every Metropolitan. For if the Pope should rule over the whole Church, it had been absurd to limit every one their own borders, wherein they should have supreme authority according to the custom of the Church of Rome. Neither doth this prove the supremacy of the Romish Church, because they allege her custom and example, as you ignorantly infer: seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equal or inferior, as from a superious. It is no marvel if Paschasinus, being the Pope's Legate, spoke for the supremacy of the Roman Sea, neither is his testimony to be regarded, being a party. Your Arabic Canon is merely Arabic, and not Nicene; for of this Council there were only 20. Canons written in Greek, and not in the Arabian tongue. The Canon of the Council of Sardis helpeth you not, seeing the Council of Africa testifieth that i● was counterfeit. Let the ancient custom be in force, which was in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis, that the Bishop of Alexandria have the chief dignity, over all these things: because also this was the custom of the Bishop of Rome: and in like manner at Antioch, and in the rest of the Provinces, let the Primacy and authority be received unto the Churches. You see (Campian) I suppose that no extraordinary prerogative hath been given to the Bishop of Rome: and that his Province and jurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders. Ruffin. lib. Decim●. And after this same manner doth Ruffinus, (if you do not credit us) interpret this Canon. This Ancient custom is observed at Alexandria, and in the city of Rome, that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Egypt, and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the city's neire adjoining. And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities, with which the Nicene Synod hath enjoined him to rest satisfied; and hereafter let him not trouble himself, with the care of our Churches, which appertain not unto his charge. And so you see, that if you had been well advised, you would never have mentioned this Council. Act. 4.16. But you adjoin also unto this the Council of e DUR. The Council of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Roman Sea, that you ca with no shifts avoid it. For therein Dioscorus, as for diver, other faults, so especially for excommunstating the Pope, was deprived of Episcopal authority, Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He extendeth his madness against him, unto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Saviour, and against thee who labourest to unite the body of the Church. Again, they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope. And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome, whichus head of all the Churches, deprived him; because as Lucentius addeth, he presumed to call a Council without the authority of the Apostolic Sea. WHIT. pag. 302. This council is so far from confirming the Pope's supremacy, that it plainly overthroweth it: for though Pope Leo with all earnestness opposed against the honour and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople, yet he obtained of the Council that degree of honour which he desired, which he could not have done if the Council had acknowledged the Pope's supremacy. Concerning Dioscorus, he was deprived for many notable crimes, as murder, blasphemy against the Trinity burglary, adultery and excommunicating the Pope; and you make this last a special cause of his deprivation, as though it were a more heinous crime than murder, adultery and blasphemy. Therein advancing your Pope, as your manner is, above the blessed Trinity. The committing of the vineyard to Peter, maketh nothing for your Pope, who is not Peter, nor any thing like him. Prove that it was committed to the Pope and you say something. The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope, but also appertained to the other patriarchs and metropolitans; yea to the Emperors. Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus, say not a word of the Pope's supremacy, although they were the Pope's Legates. And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches, his meaning was, that it was the first, greatest, and most famous Church. Chalcedon, that thereby you may prove that the chief honour is to be ascribed unto the Bishop of the chief sea, that is unto Peter. I grant, Campian, that this sea in time past, was had in the chief place of honour, and I know very well that the chief dignity was attributed to the Bishop of this sea; the reason whereof you may easily perceive out of the self same Council. For this was not done by any commandment of Christ, that the Church of Rome should excel in dignity, all other Churches of the world: but the Fathers testify, that the cause why that City was invested with greater privilege than others, was this, because it was the chief seat of the Empire. You may find the words themselves in the same act which you cite. Act. 16. But if (as you say) the Church of Rome ought to have the pre-eminence above all other Churches in the world, in divine authority, what then meant the Chalcedonian Fathers, to affirm that there were some prerogatives granted unto that Church, for this cause alone; in that Rome was the head of the Empire, and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that City, which was the Empress of the world, was worthy of some more honour than others? And this honour to speak of was only this; that the Bishop of Rome should have the pre-eminence of place in Counsels, the priority of speech in delivering his opinion, and the precedence in rank and place. And thus neither do we ourselves, now much envy this honour to the Roman Bishop, but that if so it please him, he may enjoy it; so that he do not (because he hath the chief place) imperiously tyrannize over his brethren, as he hath done for many ages, and persuadeth himself that he may do it lawfully. But seeing it pleaseth you to object unto us, the Council of Chalcedon, that you may challenge the chief honour, as due to your Bishop of the chief Sea, before I proceed further, I would gladly you should resolve me in this question, why the f DUR. This was not the judgement of the whole Council, but of certain men. Neither did the constantinopolitans require that their Sea should be of equal authority with the Sea of Rome, but that it should have the like sovereignty in Ecclesiastical matters, and obtains the next place to it. WHIT. pag. 306. This was the judgement of the whole Council, except the Pope's own Legates Paschasinus, Bonefacius, and Lucentius, who in vain opposed: for the decree runneth thus. These things we all say, these things please us all. And contrary to your assertion, these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equal privilege, with the Bishop of Rome; which equality of privileges, cannot stand with the unequality of authority. Neither did priority of place prove, that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authority, s●●ing this was only for order's sake: otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of Constantinople should have had the like authority over the Bishop of Alexandri●, because he sat above him. Fathers of this Council, made the Sea of Constantinople, equal to the Sea of Rome? for so they decree, and diffinitively determine: that seeing great privileges were granted to the Church of Rome, in respect of the Empire of the city, they thought it a matter of great equity, that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate, should enjoy the same privileges which old Rome had done. And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour, that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equal, yet he could not by his best means effect his desire, but that the decree of the Council prevailed, which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople, with the Bishop of Rome. And therefore me thinks you have but ill defended the honour and dignity of your Bishop, when you allege the decree of that Council. Moreover, the Council of g DUR. The filth Canon of the Council of Constantinople, ascribed greater honour to the Roman Sea, then to any other. WHIT. pag. 311. This honour was only of precedence and place, and not of authority; as plainly appeareth in the words of the Council itself. Chap. ●8. and in that the like prerogative was granted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople, and therefore by the like reason he might ●rrog●●● authority over the whole Church. Constantinople which you also cite, Canon. 5. decreed no other thing for the Roman Sea, then that the Bishop of Constantinople should have the prerogative of honour next to the Bishop of Rome. And this we also confess, that in times past the Provinces were so distributed, that Rome had the chief, Constantinople the next, and so every one in their own order. But what maketh that to this cause, which we have now in hand? For this is not the honour which the Bishop of Rome challengeth unto himself: this not the height of power and majesty which he so often arrogateth. Ephes. Conc. in Epist. ad Nestor. The Council also of h DUR. In the Council of Ephesus divers things are contained, which approve the supremacy of the Sea of Rome, etc. WHIT. pag. 313. Campian cited the Epistle of the Council to Nestorius, wherein there is nothing which any way favoureth the Pope's supremacy; the which you perceiving, do rake together other fragments concerning things which are not in controversy, and leave out those points which make against you. Ephesus is alleged by you with as little reason, seeing it ascribeth nothing to the Bishop of Rome, which did not also agree to other Bishops: for if you take hold on this, that Celestinus the Bishop of Rome, was called the holy precedent, & most reverend Father, because he threatened to excommunicate Nestorius, unless he abiuted his heresy; these things are common unto the Bishop of Rome with others: neither was he only entitled reverend, neither could he alone pronounce judgement against heretics. But if these would rather please you; This is the faith of the Catholic and Orthodoxal Church, unto which all the Orthodoxal Bishops give their assent; you interpret these words amiss. For in these words all the Orthodoxal Bishops are said not to assent to the Church, but to the faith: and that faith, which the Fathers in those their letters embraced, all Orthodoxal Bishops in every place have approved, and we also do defend. But what now followeth in your contestation? Thou wilt (say you) acknowledge the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ on the Altar. And for this you cite the 14. Canon of the Nicence Council, in which there is not so much as any mention made neither of unbloody, nor of i DUR. The word Sacrifice is in the 14. Canon of the Nicene Council. And in the institutions of this Council, it is said that the Lamb of God is on the holy table, which is offered of the Priests without blood, etc. WHIT pag. 316. It is not to be found in the words of the Council in the Greek, but they are your words of the Translator. And concerning the institutions, their authority was always doubtful in the Church, neither do they make for you, seeing we grant that in the right use of the Sacrament we receive the Lamb of God, Sacramentally. sacrifice, nor of Altar. But Deacons are there prohibited to arrogate so much unto themselves, that Bishops or Priests being present, they should take upon them to administer the Sacrament of the Lords supper, because it was not lawful for Deacons to deliver the Lords body unto Priests. Now it is an usual thing to call bread the Lords body, because it is a Sacrament of the Lords body; neither in the mean time do I deny that the supper of the Lord is called by many of the k DUR. The testimonies of the Fathers which you allege, wherein the Sacrament is called an unbloody sacrifice, make nothing for you: seeing that with them is called unbloody, not that is without blood but without effusion of blood. WHIT pag. 318. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, unbloody, used by them, signifieth such a thing as hath no blood in it. If therefore this be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, an unbloody sacrifice, as the Fathers call it, than it is a Sacrifice without blood, and not only without shedding of blood. Again if it be a sacrifice wherein no blood is spilled, then is it not the sacrifice of Christ; for in this blood was shed: nor any true sacrifice, for there is no sacrifice that hath blood without the shedding thereof. Heb. 9.22. ancient Fathers, an unbloody sacrifice: both because we retain the mysteries of Christ's death without any blood, & also offer up praises & thanksgiving as it were for sacrifices unto God; and therefore Cyrill joineth in the supper, these together, unbloody sacrifices and praises. Cyril. ad Regin. Eusebius de Demon. lib. 1. And Eusebius writeth, that we build an Altar to the Lord, of unbloody and reasonable sacrifices, according to the new mysteries. Now if you ask what manner of unbloody sacrifice this is, let Eusebius himself answer you in his own words. He hath delivered unto us, a l DUR. Eusebius doth not call it a sacrifice, because it is a sole & bare memorial of the new Testament, as you suppose: but because we offer an unbloody socrifice, for a memorial of a bloody sacrifice. WHIT. pag. 323. Neither do I affirm it, for this is not a bare memorial, seeing the thing itself, thereby signified, is therein contained in the right use of it. But withal I deny that this memorial is the same sacrifice which Christ offered, as you would have it; for how can a sacrifice be the self same with it of which it is a memorial? If therefore this be an unbloody sacrifice, them it is not the Sacrifice which Christ offered, which was bloody, & the memorial of no other sacrifice. See Eus. de Demon. l. 1. memorial of his death, which we offer unto him in place of a Sacrifice. Again, you propound the eleventh act of the Council of Chalcedon, which containeth nothing at all, which appertaineth to this matter in hand, neither that place of Socrates which you quote. Lib. 1. cap. 8 You might have dealt better and more simply, if you would have cited the words themselves, and not only quoted uncertain and confused notes in the margin: but you feared lest you might have been too easily discovered, unless you had masked yourself under the vizard of deceit. But let us examine the remainder of your contestation: Thou wilt pray (say you) unto the Martyrs and all the Saints, that they would mediate for thee unto Christ. Thou wilt restrain effeminate Apostates from wicked copulation. Whether the Martyrs and heavenly Saints pray unto Christ for us or no, m DUR. You cannot be ignorant of this, that the Saints pray for us, if in the doctrine of faith you insist in the steps of the Fathers. WHIT. p. 328. We are ignorant thereof because there is no such thing contained in the Canonical Scriptures, which should not have been omitted if the spirit of God had thought this knowledge necessary. Neither is it controversed what the Father's thought of it; not doth it follow because they have care of us, they pray for us; neither if they do pray, therefore we should pray unto them. we know not: but certain it is, that they are n DUR. We know the blessedness of the Saints in heaven, and therefore they are not ignorant of our misery in earth. Again, Christ hath revealed unto the Saints living on the earth, divine and heavenly things, and therefore he revealeth to the Saints in heaven, what is done in earth. WHIT. pag 330. Although we generally know that the Saints in heaven are blessed, yet we know not their particular state, their actions, the manner & degree of their happiness: and therefore if your argument be good, it confuteth yourself; seeing therefore it followeth, that they likewise are ignorant of our particular state & actions. Moreover Christ revealed to the Saints on earth, heavenly things, but not what was done in heaven, only he made those divine mysteries know unto them, which were necessary to salvation; whereof it followeth not that he revealeth to the Saints in heaven, what is particularly done on earth, unless you can prove that there is the like necessity of this knowledge. ignorant of those things we do. And therefore we rather go unto o DUR. S. Paul desireth the Romans and Corinthians to pray for him, and therefore we may desire the same of the Saints in heaven. We know that we obtain all in the name of Christ, but seeing all are not in like grace with God, the Fathers and we have made choice of those who are most gracious. WHIT. pag. 336. The first part of your answer confuteth the latter, unless you will say that Paul was less gracious with God, than the Romans and Corinthians; and both are weak & of no value: for first Paul prayeth not to them as you do to Saints, but only desireth them to perform a mutual Christian duty, which the Saints living, who are acquainted with one another's estate and wants, ought not to neglect: if he had made the likesuite to a Prophet departed, john Baptist, or james slain by Herode, you had somewhat to say. Lastly if those are to be made choice of for mediators, who are in greatest grace with God, to whom should we go but unto Christ his dearly beloved Son, in whom God is well pleased and we reconciled? Eph. 16. Matth. 3.17. joh. 14.6. 1. Tim. 2.5. Christ, and pray unto him alone, who both knoweth our wants, and also will and can grant unto us such things as we desire. You if you please may seek after the pirling streams, but we will draw out of the fountain itself, neither do we regard the inveterate custom of praying unto saints (for though this custom is ancient; nevertheless, it hath flowed from the wellhead of human superstition, and not from divine authority:) and whereas you adjoin your conceit concerning the restraining offeminate Apostates from wicked copulation; and for this purpose allege some Canons of the Council of Chalcedon: Concil. Chale. can. 4.15.23. in this you follow your old wont: for there is only one Canon to be found against ministering widows, which after they had taken upon them the office of ministration, married again: but how unjust this law is, it may easily appear. 1. Tim. 5. For when as Saint Paul would have these widows to be p DUR. There is nothing determined in the Scriptures concerning the age of widows. That which S. Paul writeth, was profitable for the infancy of the Church; but when the Gospel had taken deeper ●oot in men's hearts, they began to prefer contivency before marriage. WHIT. pag. 337. Your impudence is to be admired, seeing S. Paul hath plainly determined that they should be fixtie years of age at the least, 1. Tim. 5.9. neither were such Apostolical constitutions to endure only for a time, but until the coming of Christ, as appeareth. 1. Tim. 6.14. And whereas you say the Gospel after the Apostles times, took deeper root in men's minds, it is merely false; it was indeed further propagated, but the Church was never in after ages endued with the like measure of grace, and extraordinary gifts, as it was in the Apostles times, when they received the first fruits of the spirit. And I would pray the Reader to consider that Duraeus doth confess, that in the first age of the Church single life was not so much desired of most, and in later times they only beg●n to prefer continency before matriage. But how much better it had been to have kept the Apostolic institutions, and to have changed compelled continency for lawful and holy marriage, the lamentable event hath sufficiently proved. sixty years old at least; this Canon doth admit of those who are but forty: and yet notwithstanding permitteth them not to marry. But you will say they have vowed single life: First, prove that they ought to make any such vow, and then, that if they shall perceive, they can by no means perform their vow, that they have done otherwise then they should when they married. q DUR. You say, to vow that which we cannot perform, is to mock God; but this we may perform, seeing God bestoweth the virtue of continency upon those, who seek it by fasting and prayer: and seeing the vestal Nuns and Egyptian Priests attained unto it, and wines also, when their husbands are long absent upon necessary occasion. WHIT. pag. 340. God granteth not all things we pray for, but those things which he hath promised, as appeareth in the example of S. Paul 2. Cor. 12.8. But we have no promise of the gift of continency; yea contrariwise Christ hath taught us, that all are not capable of it, but those only to whom it is given Matth. 19.11. & the Apostle saith that it is a gift proper to some only. 1. Cor. 7.7. and therefore we have no ground absolutely to pray for it with assurance of being heard. The vestal Nuns & Egyptian Priests are fit examples for your imitation, who lived single, but not chaste: and yet the Vestals might marry when they were past thirty years old; and some Egyptian Priests, as appeareth, Gen. 41.45. Concerning the chastity of wives in their husband's necessary absence, the reason is not alike; for it is one thing to impose upon ourselves a voluntary necessity, and another to undergo it when it is imposed by God. God will keep us in our ways, Psal. 90.14. but not when we rashly thrust ourselves into needless difficulties. To make a vow in things indifferent, which you cannot possibly perform, is to mock God, and to commit the crime of impious temerity: but to persist in this wicked vow is a double sin. And therefore that which the law prescribeth is to be embraced: The best course in evil promises made, is not to observe them; and we are so to behave ourselves, as Bernard counseleth his sister. In evil promises keep not touch. Bernard. ad Soror. de modo bene vivendi Serm. 62. r DUR. Bernard writeth not against the vow of virginity, but only willeth us to break a dishonest vow, neither is this book, you know, thought to be his. WHIT. pag. 342. It is not much material who was the author, but his judgement is to be embraced: seeing then that is a dishonest vow, the performance whereof is joined with dishonesty, it followeth that the vow of single life is such, when as it causeth men to burn in the flame of lust, and therefore is rather to be broken then observed. In a dishonest vow change thy purpose. Do not perform that which thou hast vowed unadvisedly; for that promise is impious which is wickedly performed. Now what can be more wicked and odious in the sight of God, then to be inwardly inflamed with the fire of lust, and to refuse that lawful mean●● whereby it might be quenched? But you are always harping upon this string; that they are bound by the laws of a vow: Cyprian. lib. 1. Epist. 1. 1. Pet. 1. therefore let Cyprian make you answer. s DUR. The words of Cyprian are not to be understood of Virgins already consecrated unto God, but he willeth those who will not persevere in virginity, that they do not consecrate themselves to Christ, but rather marry, WHIT. pag. 343. Cyprian speaketh plainly of such Virgins as were already consecrated, for he reprehendeth such as having consecrated themselves to Christ, did live incontinently, and willeth them, if they will not persevere in chastity, to marry. lib. 1. Epistol. 11. And Erasmus thought thus as appeareth by a marginal note of his. Here marriages are permitted to holy Virgins. If they have by their vow, consecrated themselves to Christ, 1. Pet. 1. let them persevere honestly and chastely without any feigned devices. But if they will not or cannot persevere, their best course is to marry. And would Cyprian, think you Campian, have given this counsel to Virgins, if he had judged such marriages wicked, or no better than public incest, as you in your intemperate style term it? And indeed how much more honest course were it for you Monks and Friars, to avoid your too too public and notoriously wicked fornication, by embracing chaste marriage? for so it might come to pass, Plus secund. as your old Pope Pius was wont to say: That many of you might be saved in marriage, which are now damned in single life: But he that is filthy, let him go forward in his filthiness unto his old age; and let him that is holy, ●lie uncleanness, and prefer sanctimony of life, before vice and wickedness. And these are the main matters which you have delivered unto us, in that your grave contestation, and have laboured to persuade by interposing the authority of Counsels. But you might have considered (Campian) that the counterfeit names of Counsels, aught to be of far less authority with us, than the most undoubted truth of God's word. And whereas you further affirm, that The Synods of other times, and namely that of Trent, are of equal authority and credit with those first Counsels: I must tell you, I believe you not, although you promise and take upon you to prove it, when need requires. You promise indeed much, but perform nothing. But here I entreat the godly Reader, and beseech all Christians, that they would attentively mark, what Campian here avoucheth, to wit, that all Synods, and namely that of Trent, are equal to the four general Counsels: which four Counsels, are by t DUR. Gregory doth not match the four Counsels in equal authority with the four Gospels; but only saith, that as he doth undoubtedly and certainly believe the scriptures, so also the four Counsels. WHIT. pag. 348. Gregory saith, that he doth embrace and reverence the four Counsels as the four books of the Gospel, Epist. libr. 1. Epist. 24. And what is this, but to make them equal? For if there be any inequality, woe cannot embrace and reverence them both alike. Gregory, whom Campian citeth, marched in equal authority with the four Gospels: from whence it necessarily followeth, that all Counsels of other times are of the same authority and credit with the four Evangelists. I will not urge this point further, neither will I now shake you up, as you usually do Master Luther, but rather leave you to be beaten with the rod of men's silent judgements. After this you being shadowed with this impenetrable shield of Counsels, enter the lists, and observe whether your adversary convaieth himself; for so great a warrior you are, such a skilful Champion, and so fierce in fight, that assoon as you but show yourself, forthwith all your enemies betake them to their heels; and eftsoons you declare how you mean to behave yourself in this fight, and what a great slaughter you intent to make. But take heed, Campian, lest that may worthily be applied to you, which is spoken in the proverbs: He that is rashly confident, before the conflict, is commonly a coward in the combat. You speak much of the dignity of Counsels, which we also acknowledge to be very great, but nevertheless, the holy Ghost is not bound to multitudes of men, to stately preparations, nor to sumptuous pomp. And we may often observe that in Counsels there is much contending amongst contrary factions, and sometimes the greater part prevaileth against the better. You say that Luther durst presume to affirm, that he preferred the judgement and suffrages of two good and learned men, before the Counsels. And in truth why might he not prefer them; and who could justly find fault with that speech? Seeing Gerson the Moderator of the Council of Constance, doubted not to prefer the judgement of one man, before the whole Council. u DUR. Gerson did never prefer the judgement of one man before a whole Council. WHIT. pag. 349. It is untrue, for he thus writeth. We ought rather to believe in a point of doctrine a simple man not authorized, but yet excellently learned in the scriptures, them the Pope. Again a man thus learned, aught to oppose himself against a general Council, if he perceive that the greater part incline to that which is contrary to the Gospel, either through malice or ignorance, Gers. de exam. doctr. 1. par. Considerate 5. We are, saith he, to give more credit unto a man learned in the holy Scriptures alleging catholic authority, then to a general Council: Tit. de elect. can. signifi●●sti. which also Pa●ormitan hath confirmed, writing in this manner: We ought (saith he) rather to believe a simple lay man, alleging the Scripture, than the whole Council together. You say further, That Kemnisius dared to poise the Council of Trent in the balance of his own giddy brain. But Kemnisius did not examine that Council by his own square, but by the rule of God's holy word: And what gained he? (say you) and answering yourself in your own question, you say, nothing but infamy: If Kemnisius have not your good word, it is no great wonder; for he hath achieved that by his learning, virtue and industry, that he may seem worthy of envy and hatred from such as you are. But if true and deserved praise be due to good deeds, he hath obtained an honourable reward; even the everlasting glory of a good name. Yea (say you) if he take not heed, he shall be buried with Arrius. But it behoved you, Campian, to trouble your head, rather about your own, than Kemnisius his funerals: and take you heed, lest for your evil deeds, there be a sepulchre provided for you amongst the damned. Now here again you begin more highly to extol the Council of Trent; as though we knew not the notable carriage and behaviour of that famous and goodly Synod. But for my part I easily allow you to be so far in love with it, neither in truth will I become your rival. Sleidanus. Illyricus. Kemnisius. Calvinus. joan. juellus. Others have spoken of it those things that are most true: both how it was called, how handled, and how it was dismissed; and therefore I will not go about to refute your affections. Let it enjoy, for me, that credit and estimation which it can. Although every one knoweth thus much, that it was not to be esteemed a Council of the whole Christian state, An assembly of certain men. but rather a Conventicle of a few men running together into the same place. There was there present a sort of silly Friars which did sustain the greatest part of the burden, by disputing, writing and playing the Orators. For as for the Bishops and chief Cardinals, they busied their heads about other matters, for which they were specially assembled. But as I said, let it be such as it was, for I am not offended at your commendations. And let the Bishops make their glorious brags, that they long abode in that school; out of which as yet, as far as I know, not many, either learned divines or good Pastors have come. You also usher in Antony of prague greatly congratulating with himself; for you would needs show him some kindness, because he made you a Priest. Well; Campian was created Priest by Antony Archbishop of prague; surely I fear lest you traveled too far to buy such base wares. But now you may celebrate your Masses, seeing you are shaven and anointed, and made a Priest. Moreover you demand & exceedingly triumph, why your Adversaries called hither, and secured by the caution of public promise, did not make all haste to come unto it? In which you are sufficiently answered in the Apology of our Church. For what should we do there? or to what end should we undertake so long a journey, either that being mocked and abused, we might return home again, or being burned in the Council, we should pay for our rashness? For what place of disputation was left amongst those, who had every man plighted their faith to the Bishop of Rome, & had religiously bound themselves by oath, that they would never either do or say any thing against his dignity and pleasure? what therefore might be hoped for from these, which might draw any to the disputation? beside the * DUR. john Husse was not called by the Council of Constance, neither received from it any public promise. And whereas you say that it was decreed in this Council, that faith is not to be kept with heretics, it is false. WHIT. pag. 352. The Emperor Sigismond gave him his public warrant, which the Council most dishonourably infringed. And after they had put hus to death contrary to public promise, they enacted a law that a promise made unto heretics by the Emperor or by any King or secular Prince, should not hinder any Ecclesiastical judges from proceeding against them according to law. Concil. Constant. Sess. 19 calamity of john hus of Bohemia, and Hierome of prague, whom the Fathers burned in the Council of Constance, brought just cause of fear. And yet hus came to the Council, trusting in the protection of a public promise. Yea but (say you) the Constantine Fathers made no promise, and therefore did not break any. But Sigismonde the Emperor gave his public warrant, unto whom it was fit that he should give credit. Notwithstanding, coming to the Council, he was presently apprehended and cast into prison, and pleading his cause before the Council he was condemned and burned, although Sigismond stormed at it. Neither did he fly, as you falsely report, neither in truth could he escape: but thus this holy and innocent man was devoured like a sheep by furious wolves. And what I pray you, did the Emperor's authority, commandment, or public warrantise profit him? The Emperor (say you) signed it, but the state of Christendom, greater than the Emperors, did repeal it. And who then can be safe, if the Emperors bear no sway in the Council? Neither doth the horrible murder of john Husse, contrary to a public warrant of protection, so much discourage us from coming to your Counsels, as that decree published by the Council itself, That promise is not to be kept with Heretics. Should I then believe you, who I know will keep no promise? If I do, surely I am worthy to perish after the same manner. Hierome of prague likewise came to the Council of his own accord, and making public profession of his faith, was burned. So that the case of these two, (than the which all Christendom at that time had not any more holy or learned) shall remain as a perpetual monument of your treachery and most horrible cruelty; and as a notable caveat unto all the godly, to beware of you for the time to come. Concerning Luther, whom you, cursed Friar, call the hatred of God and men, the hand and power of God himself so defended him, that you could never hurt him. For will was not wanting to you for the destruction of Luther, but opportunity. But he was safe (say you) upon the Emperor's word: neither in truth durst the Pope attempt Luther's death, after the Emperor had promised him safety. For would Charles the fifth, think you, have endured it? It was not behoveful for the Pope to have attempted any thing, whereby the Emperor's faith might appear falsified: for Charles would never so easily have put up such an indignity as Sigismond had done in time past. But (say you) they do too much brag in corners, in which when they have but sounded three Greek words, they would seem to be very wise. They might perhaps seem wise to you, who scarcely (as I suppose) can sound three Greek words. They cannot (as you say) endure the light, which would bring a Scholar into account, and would recall him into some place of reckoning: and is this it, Campian, which you hunt after, a name, same, places of account, to be pointed at with the finger, and to be thus spoken of, This is the man advanced to greatest grace, excelling in worth, and worthy place? Doth this grieve you that you are not highly esteemed of, and do not sit in high place? Well man, proceed in your virtuous courses, and go forward in the way, into the which you are entered to your great praise, and there is good hope you may ascend unto such an high place as you are worthy of. But whereas you desire, That the English Catholics may obtain a Patent of impunity, if they love the salvation of their souls, surely you require a thing unjust & unequal. For what likeness is there in this, that learned men should assemble from all parts, unto a public Council, and that Runagates should be permitted to return unto their country? We will (say you) with winged speed hast unto the Court, relying ourselves upon the Prince's word. And so indeed you safely may: for if she give her word, you may promise unto yourselves assured security. And I the more easily believe you speak the truth, seeing some of you already, have hasted into the Gourt, having no promise from the Prince to rest upon. But Campian, fly you rather to the Indians, that you may take a survey of your Pope's new Province: for our most wise Prince desires no such guests, but banisheth you as far as she can from her. But now at length you return thither whence you have digressed, and gloriously conclude this point, concerning Counsels: saying, The general Counsels make all for me, the first, last, and middle. You have gotten an easy and speedy victory: I am almost persuaded that you are become another Caesar: V●ni, vidi, vici, I came, I saw, I overcame; but this is not to dart your javelin, which you say is looped for the purpose. I see words as it were tied together with strings, or rather frantic speeches; but as yet I discern no spear: either a javelin, or a thongue, or strength, or (which I rather believe) all these are wanting unto you. Surely we of the Universities, Campian, do greatly desire to try how skilfully you have learned to toss your spear, and we hope it will come to pass, that you being pierced with our darts, will at length know and acknowledge your audacious temerity and slothful ignorance of this fight. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The fifth Reason, which is the Fathers. AS that famous Surname of Christians increased first in a Act. 1●. Antioch, so b 1. Cor. 12. Ephes. 4.1. Cor. 14. Doctors, that is, very deep Divines, and Prophets, that is, most famous Preachers, first flourished there. Our Lord himself provided for his flock in time to come, such a sort of c Matth. 13.23. Scribes and wise men, as were experienced in the kingdom of God, bringing forth both old & new things, that is, having God still both in Christ and Moses, in the new and old Testament. How mischievous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men, which were given us by God for a special benefit? The Adversary hath * This is false, for we never hissed out any learned scribe. expelled them. For what cause? for that if they had stood upright, he of necessity had fallen down. So soon, as I throughlie perceived that, without any more ado, I desired to make, not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people use, when they contend one with another in the open streets, but that severe and sharp combat, by which we buckle▪ one with another in your Philosophy schools, foot by foot, & man by man, close joined together. If we may once come to the Fathers, the field is fought, & the wager won, on our side. For they are all ours, assure as Gregory the 13. is a most loving Father to all the Church's children. For to d S. Dion. Areo pag. de quo vide Adonis Treu. in Martyrel. Adon. Turon. Sing. Suid. Metap. omit divers places, which here and there dispersed, being gathered together out of the ancient writings of the Fathers, do very fitly and plainly fortify our faith: we have their whole books, which of set purpose do expressly and copiously paint out lively that self same evangelical religion which we maintain. What orders of heavenly powers, what sacrifices, what solemn rites, doth that twofold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denys, make known unto us? That matter touched c Coment. in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. ●ab. Luther so nigh the quick, that he affirmed this blessed man's writings to be most like to dreams and most pernicious. f Dial. 5. & 11. Caussaeus an obscure upstart in France, following the steps of his Father Luther, blushed not to term this Apostle S. * This Denys is counterfeice and forged. Denys borne in a noble country, an old dotard. g Cent. 2. cap. 10. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 13 num. 29. The Magdeburgeans which lately set forth the Ecclesiastical history in Centuries, were greatly grieved at S. * This Ignatius is counterfeit. Ignatius, so was Caluin also. Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certain foul blemeshes and unsavoury speeches in his Epistles. In these men's conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy; and S. Clement, who was author of the book called Stromatum, yielded out of his works cockle and dregs. And the residue h Cent. 2. cap. 5. vide Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. & Seqq. of the Fathers of this age, which were in very deed * They were Apostolic men, yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did. Apostolic men, left unto their posterity blasphemous and monstrous doctrine. In i Lib. de Prascript. contra Ha●. Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault, which being told thereof by us, they with us also detest. But let them call to mind, the book which he writ de Praescriptionibus, wherewith the heretics of our time had so sound a blow, was never hither to reprehended by the Church. How sufficiently and evidently hath * This Hippolytus is counterfeit. Hippolytus k Orat. de consume. Secul. Bishop of Portua foreshowed the reign of Luther's heresies, which was a strong pillar▪ in antichrist's building? And for that cause they call him a most childish scribble, & a masker. That l jewel. etc. causs. Dial. 8. & 11. critical French man Caussaeus, and the m Cent. 3. cap. 4. Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian (who was the flower and honour of Africa) a block head, a man cast out of God's sight a depraver of the true doctrine of Penance: why, what hath he done? he hath writ for sooth one book of Virginity, and another of those that are Relapsed, and certain treatises of the unity of the Church, yea & such Epistles also unto Cornelius Bishop of Rome, that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced, Peter Martyr the Vermilion, and all his confeder a●s, must be taken for worse than adulternous & Church-robbers. And lest I should stand too long upon particularties, aft the Fathers of that age are n Cent. 3. cap. 4. generally * This is false, for none do condemn or reject the Fathers of this age. condemned, as men that have corrupted wonderfully, the sincere doctrine of Penance. Ho● I pray you? the Austerity for sooth of the o Canon's Poenitenti● ve●eres. Canons which at that time was used, doth highly displease this plausible sect, which are fit for Chambers then for Churches, and is accustomed to tickle sensual ears, and to so ●cushions to every elbow: wherein, I say, wherein hath the next age offended? forsooth S. Chrysostome and other Fathers of that time have foully darkened justification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen, whom ancient writers for honour sake, have Surnamed Theologus. 1. the Divine, by Caussaeus judgement, was but a q Dia. 6.7.8 brabbler and knew not what to say: S. Ambrose was bewitched of an evil spirit. S. r Beza in Act. Apost. ca 23. Stancha. li. de Trin. Hierome is as * This which concerneth S. Hierome is all false. deeply damned in hell, as the devil himself, because he was injurious to the Apostle, a blasphemer, a naughty man, a wicked fellow. Gregory Massonius esteemeth more of one Caluin, then of an hundred Augustine's, a hundred is but a few. s Lib. cent. Henry. 8. Reg. Aug●. Martin Luther careth not a button, if there were against him a thousand Augustine's, a thousand Cyprians, a thousand Churches. I think it will be to no purpose to wade any further in this matter, for who may marvel, if they that thus rail against these worthy men, have also been saucy against Optatus, Athanasius, Hilarius, both Cyrils', Epiphanius, Basill, Vincentius, Fulgentius, Leo, and Gregory the Roman? And yet if there may be any just defence of an unjust cause, I do not deny but the Fathers have, wheresoever you read in their works, such matter, as may cause the Adversary to take pepper in the nose, so long as they follow their own humours. For they that cannot away with prescript days of abstinence, how is it likely that they can abide S, Basill, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Leo, and S. Chrysostome, who have set forth in print g z●ch. 13. Praef. in cent. 5. very godly sermons, concerning Lent, and Ember days, as things usually at that time observed among Christian people. Can those men choose, which have sold their souls for riches, bodily pleasure, dainty fare, and fine apparel, but bear deadly hatred to S. Basill, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, and S. Augustine, whose excellent books of the order, rule, and virtuous life of * But these Monks were most unlike to ours. Monks, are usually in every man's band? May they that have intruded servile will into man, that have cut off all Christian funerals, that have set on fire the relics of Saints, continue friendship with S. Augustine? who hath penned three whole books of man's * But in these books he doth not establish free-will. free-will, t Lib. 22. de Civit. Dei. cap. 8. & ser. de divers. 34. & sequent. one book of care to be taken for the dead, one long chapter of that his noble work De civitat. Dei, concerning miracles wrought at the Churches, Chapels, and sepulchres of holy Martyrs, and certain Sermons of the same matter. Can such as measure faith by their own captiousness, refrain from anger towards S. Augustine, of whose penning there is extant a notable o Cont. epist. man.. quam vocant. fundam. c. 4. Epistle against Manachie, wherein he confesseth, that for his faith he will cleave unto * Yet in that very place Augustine preferred truth before all these. Antiquity, unity, continual succession, and to the Church, which by prescription alone challengeth among so many heresies, the title of Catholic? u Li. 1. cont. Pa●men. Optatus * This Optatus is an old Father newly printed. Bishop of Miletan confuteth such as took part with Donatus, by the Catholic community. Their wickedness he accuseth by the decree of the Pope Melchiades; he reproveth x Lib. 2. their heresy by the succession of the Bishops of Rome. He displaieth their y Lib. 3. madness, by their dafiling both of the blessed Eucharist, and also of the holy oil. He abhorreth their z Lib. 6. sacrilege, in breaking down of holy Altars, whereupon Christ's body is laid, and also in polluting of the Chalices, which contained Christ's blood: I would gladly know what they think of Optatus, who is commended by S. a Aug. lib. 1 cont. Parmen. De Vnit. ca 16. & lib. 3 de Doct. Christ. c. 40. Augustine as a worthy and Catholic Bishop not inferior to S. Ambrose, and S. Cyprian, and whom S. b Fulgent. li. 2. ad Monim. Vide epist. Synod. Alex. ad Feli. 2. Fulgentius also recordeth to have been an holy man and faithful Interpreter of S. Paul, not unlike unto S. Augustine, and S. Ambrose. They read S. Athanasius Creed in their Churches: Do they for all that bear him any good will, who hath highly commended as an ancient writer in an exact book, S. Antony that hermit of Egypt, and also hath humbly appealed, with the Council of * A counterfeit Epistle. Alexandria unto the Sea Apostolic of S. Peter? How often doth S. Prudentius in his Hymns pray unto the blessed Martyrs? what Hymns doth he indite in their praise? how often doth he worship the King of Martyrs at their ashes and bones? will they allow of this man? S. Hierome in the defence of Relics, and honour of Saints writeth against Vigillantius, and for the pre-eminence of virginity against jovinian: will they tolerate this? An high solemn feast was kept by c Vide Epist. de Ambros. ad Epist. It al. From. 3. Sil●● & tiusdem Amb. Epist. 85. Item Serm. 91. S. Ambrose in the honour of his patrons Geruasius and Protasius, to the great reproach of the Arrians; which act the holy d August. lib. 22. de civie. Dei. cap. 1. Fathers have highly commended, and God himself adorned with many miracles: will they be friends with S. Ambrose? c Greg●r. Tur. lib. de gloria Mar. cap. 46. Metaphrast. S. Gregory the great, that Apostle of * Gregory the great was neither our Apostle, nor an Apostle at all. ours, is flat on our side and for that title is hated of our Adversaries, whom Caluin in his fury doth deny to be brought up in the f just. lib. 1. cap. 11. n. 5. school of the holy Ghost, because he called holi● Images the books of unlearned people. A whole day would not be enough for me to reckon all the Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, Orations, Treatises, and disputations of the old Fathers, wherein of set purpose both gravely and eloquently, they have confirmed our Catholic doctrine. So long as these books of these Fathers shall be sold at the Stationer's shop, in vain are the havens and sea coasts watched so narrowly; to no purpose, are houses, coffers, and chests straightly searched; to no end, are penal proclamations set upon so many gates. For none of our late writers, neither Harding, nor , nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more vehemently inveigh against these their new found dreams, than those Fathers do, whom I have named: which things when I well considered, my courage began to rise, & I had a desire to fight, in which conflict, on which side soever the adver sarie shall start, except he yield due honour unto God, he shall have the foil: if he allow of the Fathers, he is caught; if he disallow of them, he is no body. Thus it fell out when I was: a young student at Oxford. * This word Bishop jewel did never eat, neither will we ever renounce. john jewel the captain of English Caluinists, challenged in most bragging sort all Catholics at Paul's Cross in London, urging and alleging like an hypocrite, all the Fathers that ever flourished within six hundred years after Christ. Certain worthy men, which then for religion lived as banished men, in the University of Lonan, thoug through the iniquity of the time, they lived in great distress, yet answered his challenge. That subtlety, folly, impudence, and sauciness of jewel, which the foresaid writers have luckily discovered, hath done so much good to the common sort of people in England, that within my remembrance I dare boldly say, there scarcely happened any one thing more profitable, to the afflicted English Church then this. Proclamations forth▪ with were set on every gate, that no such * But Bishop jewel published the whole book of the Adversaries that all might read them. books might lawfully be read or kept in their houses, whereas jewels exclamations at Paul's Cross, did almost extort the same out of the writers hands. But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholic, that is, on our side. Neither did g Lib. de vita juclii. Laurence Humphrey conceal this blow given him and his fellows, who when he had highly extolled jewel otherwise, noted yet want of * This is false, he never upbraided him with any impudency. discretion in him for this one thing, that he for his part had allowed the judgements of the Fathers in matters of controversy, which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath, nor will have any thing to do. I did once also familiarly request Toby Matthew, who new for preaching beareth the bell, whom for good learning sake and likely seeds of other good virtues, I dearly loved, that he would plainly tell me, whether he that so diligently read the Fathers, could be of that side, whereunto he laboured to allure his audience. He replied no, if he both read them, and withal believed them. * This is most false, they who give most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you. This his answer is very true, and I persuade myself, that neither he now, nor Matthew Hutton, who as I hear is a famous man, and bend much to study the Fathers, nor any other of the Adversaries, which do the like, do otherwise think. Wherefore, yet I might come surely to this combat, to encounter with such, who as though they had a Wolf by the ears, are enforced to discredit their cause for ever, whether they reject the Fathers or stand to their judgement. For by doing the one, they truss up their trinkets to fly away, and by doing the other, they are streightwaies strangled. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the fifth Reason, which is the Fathers. NOw Campian calleth upon the Fathers, from whom, because he presumes of a firm defence, he earnestly desireth a conflict, not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets, but a serious and constant disputation, such as Philosophers use: Campian (you see) hath a better mind to converse with Philosophers, than with Divines: for being furnished with Rhetoric and Logic, and having spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inventing and answering sophistical captions, he doubteth not of a famous victory, if Philosophers were judges. But (Campian) these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers, which are otherwhiles deceived with probability and appearance of truth, following that opinion which themselves judge most agreeable to reason. This question in hand, must be discusted in the assembly of most grave and learned Divines, whom no juggling of words, no subtlety in disputation, no wit, no cunning, no youthful insolent boldness, in quarreling lying, or soolish vaunting, can once move, much less remove them from the truth they are persuaded of. Here can you not have liberty to brag of your counterfeit devices, Philosophy may not sit as judge in these controversies, neither will those things, wherein you chiefly trust, be here of any authority: you must leave your own erroneous and endless walks, and be drawn perforce into the compass and limits of Scripture and true divinity. For Christ and his Apostles (as that discreet man said in the Nicene Council) commended not Logic and vain subtlety unto us, Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 8. but a naked opinion, consisting in faith and good works: And this simple and sincere word of truth, will easily dissolve all your cavils, will dispel your artificial mists, and will hold you fast as in a net, so that the more you struggle to get out, the faster and straighter are you tied. But you haste to the Fathers, and say, If we may once come unto them, the war is ended. Now I must tell you, you make too much haste, and overslippe many things. Is the battle ended, say you? Why, who had the victory? This is verily childish and too ridiculous, but yet usual in your combats, to triumph before the victory. But I would hear how you have finished the war, with such admirable expedition: For (say you) the Fathers are as surely ours, as Gregory the thirteenth himself; the most loving Father of the Children of the Church. Give me leave to answer you in your own words: My friends who are present, can you forbear langhing? What could be affirmed, more weakly, fond, or absurdly? Call you him, the most loving Father of the Church's Children, whom we knew to be their furious and mortal adversaries? And conclude you that other to be as true as this? I grant aswell the one as the other, for both are most false. What think you? have you not got a famous victory? And thus (Campian) you use to make an end of battles, and put to flight great armies of adversaries. What remaineth, but that as Conqueror, you be crowned with a Laurel garland, and carried with triumph into the Vatican, and solace yourself many years with your dear Father Gregory, that good old man? But now (Campian) proceed and prosecute the victory, which you have gotten. We have (say you) whole volumes of the Fathers, which do fully, distincty, and purposely declare that evangelical religion, which we now defend. Now you muster and reckon up your armies; whereby you procured this victory, look well to them, you were best, and lay sure hold of them, lest they revolt, and forsaking you, come to our Tents: for you force them to be with you against their wills. So that in the most dangerous and important fight, they fly unto us with speed, and do most sharply assault and batter you. But let us consider your volumes: The two fold Hierarchy of Denys the Martyr, what orders doth it teach us, what sacrifices, what rites? Assuredly it teacheth us novelties, unheard of in the Scriptures; we therefore leave both them and their author wholly unto you. For, though this Denys, whosoever he were, was both for time ancient, and in his style of writing, not unlearned; yet, that he should be the Ar●●pagit●, whom Paul at Athens converted to the Faith, is altogether incredible. If you ask me a reason of this my opinion, I pray you read diligently and considerately that which Laurentius Valla, and Eras●us of Roteradam have written of him. Both of them persuade, by no feigned surmises, but by very weighty reasons, and such as (I ween) you will hardly gainsay, that this Denys cannot be the party you report him to be. You than have no reason to be angry with Luther or Caussaeus if they handled this a DUR. You say that Deny● is counterfeit, but prove it by no reason. But Origen, Nazianzene, Zoph●ine Archbishop of Jerusalem, Damascene, Nicephorus, Euthemius, Dionysius Archbishop of Alexa●dria, acknowledge his books & him to have been a disciple of S. Paul. WHIT. pag. 357. But I say that Antiquity was altogether ignorant of his books; which could not be if they bade been written of Denys Arc●pagita: for Eus●biu: diligently searching out, and setting down all ancient writers, and all th●●r books and Epistles which they writ, mentioneth not ●im, nor his works, neither do any 〈◊〉 the Greek and Latin Fathers speak of him. But who can think that the books of a disciple of Saint Paul should be unknown, and not highly esteemed● of all in those days? Besides he citeth the Epistles of Ig●●tius, as also the Gospel and Revelation of S. john, which must needs be written divers years after the death of Denys Ar●●pagita: he writeth▪ an Epistle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church, when at his detah Polycarpus must needs be very young▪ for Denys was slain Anno Dom 96. Polycarpe died 1●6. being but 86. years of age; he calleth Timothy his son, who was converted before ever that Ar●●pagita was: he acknowledgeth that his masters had their learning from the Apostles, doth he not thereby deny himself S. Paul's scholar? finally the Church Hierarchy and all the names of the officers reckoned up by him, were never known in the Apostles time▪ For your authors they are all new and late writers, but two. The first Origen, whom Erasmus denieth Annot. in Act. 17. once to have made m●otion of him in all his writings: neither ever doth Nazianzene. counterfeit somewhat roughly, and censured him freely. Where you say Caluin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius, Ignatius. I confess they had just cause of offence. If heretics alleged him, to be a patron of a wicked and detestable opinion, Caluin might with reason and discretion reject him: how aptly and truly he was by them alleged, I cannot tell, let them look to it. Howsoever it be, the truth ought not by his authority to be borne down, whose credit is little, if any at all: you are not ignorant what the judgement of all the learned is those Epistles of Ignatius. Eusebius indeed makes mention of some of his Epistles, and Hierome of others: but now many more go under his name, which they have not mentioned. Hierome b DUR. If divers of those things there cited out of him be not to be found, how. followeth it that those works of his which are extant, be forged and nove of his? WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verily it will follow that his works are not perfect, yea many things are found in his Epistles, which are incredible to have been taught in those days: as the strict keeping of Lent, and fasting upon the Sabbath days; yea it was but lately that these Epistles were printed and published, and so of the less credit and authority. also reports a saying of his; Hier●n. Dial. 3. con. Pel. Theod. Dial. 3. and Theodoret another, which are not found in those Epistles which are carried about: what would you have more? Gratian himself favours not overmuch this your Ignatius. You see then, of how obscure, suspected and uncertain reputation are these two, which you place in the forefront of your army. You are offended, that the Censors, as you call them, upbraid Irenaeus, as in some thing fantastical. We use not to speak reproachfully of Irenaus, whom we confess to have been both holy and learned: but what is this to the purpose? If Iraneus have written something foolishly, must be therefore by and by, be wholly yours? And if some where we have noted his opinion, as not true and sound, do we therefore reject all his works? Is this your manner of disputing (Campian) is this your skirmishing? are you of opinion, that never any word passed from Irenaeus unadvisedly, or which might justly be termed unreasonable? Then tell c DUR. You that acknowledge, and admit nothing but the Scriptures, can by no argument confute this error. WHIT. p. 362. What may worse beseem a livine, then thus to speak? What think you of these places: Christ when he began to preach the Gospel was about thirty years of age? Luke 3.23. After his Baptism john maketh mention of three Pasleovers, and that in the third he was put to death? Is not the time then very plainly set down? and indeed what can be more plain and easy? Hence we may observe that the Fathers have plainly erred, where you would hardly believe any man could err. me, Campian, Lib. 2. cap. 39.40. how Christ preached only one year, yet was baptised the thirtieth year of his age, and died the fiftieth? what, shall we believe, that Christ taught only one year, and that the fortieth year? will you deny this to be a very new, strange, and almost frantic novelty? Besides that, many write Irenaeus to have been one of them, whom the Fathers call Millenaries; think you that was not a frantic opinion? And can you doubt of Clemens, whether he hath sometimes sown tars? what call you that, where he denieth, that Christ indeed did either hunger or thirst? Again, that Christ taught but one year, which he had of Irenaus? Again, Clement. Stromat. lib. 3. idem lib. 1. idem. lib. 5. that the Philosophers in hell expected the coming of Christ, & being taught by own mouth believed? Will you deny those to be tars? and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthiest writers of that age. If you deny it, bring me one whom I will not convince to have erred by your own judgement. You dare not say, Tertul. we have wronged Tertullian: But you will us to remember, that the book of Prescriptions was never taxed; which, for aught I remember, never was: though I confess that writing, which you name, is notable, in which many things are written, very divinely, against your Church. d DUR. But you tell us not any one particular whereby this may appear. WHIT. pag. 365. I suppose you never read this book, or else you would not make doubt of it. Is any thing more against your traditions, then that he pronounceth a curie to them that shall bring any doctrine, but the self same which the nations received from the Apostles, and they from Christ himself? And that men cannot be otherwise persuaded of the things of faith, then from the writings of faith? when he gathereth from Christ sending of his Apostles, that no Ministers are else to be receive, but such as Christ hath ordained? when whatsoever is later brought is foreign and false? when he w●●●eth, that faith must be built and borne up, upon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets, the Evangelists and Apostles? I wonder you are not ashamed of Hippolytus; of whom Harding himself was almost ashamed. Hippolyt. Think not that we are aught moved with e DUR. Why do you reject this book of Hippolyte as counterfeit? Hierome affirmeth, that he was a Bishop, and hath written many Commentaries upon the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this book is not counterfeit? nay it is the rather forged, because Hierom doth not number it amongst his books. Hippolytus was a very worthy man, of whom Eusebius. Hierom, Theodoret, Nicephorus have made very honourable mention. But this book is childish in the beginning, and in the whole altogether unanswerable to his eloquence and judgement. authors of so small credit, so lately drawn but of darkness, as they scarce yet have learned to look upon the light. For what was this Hippolytus? He writ, you say, of Antichrist. But how worthily? that foolish book of Hippolytus, which a certain man, I know not who, of late days published, guesseth, that the Devil is Antichrist, and feigneth many other things: which neither can be true, nor were ever esteemed for true. And yet you marvel we set him so light, whom no man regards or reads, or almost knows. I can give you good leave to reckon him for your own, and if you will, let him have a better note in your army. The accusation concerning Cyprian, Cyprian. is more heinous, whom all men reverence for his singular faith and excellent learning. But Caussaeus termeth him senseless and without God. They of Magdenburge, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take upon me, and defend every speech, which any man hath at any time uttered? This Caussaeus I never saw, nor before this ever heard of him. But in as much, as you so odiously accuse him, I suppose him to be some learned and godly man. Unto that he saith of Cyprian, I answer that which I remember I have read in f DUR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainly speaketh of the same Cyprian. for see how he describes him; He did not only govern the Church of Carthage, and all Africa, but the whole West, and almost the East, the Southern and Northern parts: how think you, is it not the same Cyprian? Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and given to much vice, and worshipped Devils, and used the help of Devils: He was (saith Nazianzene) a worshipper of Devils, and after a disciple of Christ. Nazian. de Cypri. Your unreasonableness forceth me to mention those things, which I had rather have concealed. For in the Father's imperfections, you stick fast like a burr, and cease not to rub up the remembrance of those things, which you should do better, not once to touch, If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, than Caussaeus might say, that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godless. For I cannot think that Caussaeus would write so of him, but in regard of those times, or that any man would conceive so injuriously, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdenburge complain that he corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge against him no new accusation, but rather disclose that which all men know to have been too true. Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very unseasonably and undiscreetly, and not he g DUR. O singular impudency! O intolerable arrogancy! what, have all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any virtue any where else. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What need all this heat? It had been your part to have showed that the Fathers who then lived, have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance, so had you confuted that I charge them with, which your hear will not cure. And what if the Fathers have thought that men's works have all their virtue and power from the merit of Christ; will it thence follow they have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance and works? As if Christ by his death had only merited that we might by our works and merits deserve eternal life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or hay upon it. alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being desirous by severe laws, to limit and restrain the evil manners of men, they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist, in certain outward disciplines, which they appointed: which severe censuring of sin & sharp punishing of wickedness, might happily be borne withal: but when they thought the punishment of sin to be discharged, God's justice satisfied, freedom from sin, and certain forgiveness with righteousness hereby to be procured; herein they diminished the power of Christ's death, they attributed too much to their own inventions, and in a word depraved the doctrine of repentance: because our sins are cleansed and removed, by no offices or works of ours, but only by the blood and passion of Christ. And so your objection of Repentance is answered. We do not for all this deny the works of Cyprian, nor reject the books of any Father of that age, as you falsely affirm, seeing both he and they agree with us in the greatest questions: but this is the privilege of you and your fellows, that you even greedily hunt after, and pursue, whatsoever is faulty in any author, as if all the Father's errors, served to make up the body and faith of your religion. Something, you say, Cyprian wrote to Cornelius, which if we give credit unto: then Peter Martyr and his confederates, must be held for worse than adulterous & sacrilegious; but what that is, I cannot so much as coviecture. I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius, but none of them accuse us, either of adultery or sacrilege; neither can you out of those letters allege any thing to our prejudice or your advantage: but this is ever your manner, to prove nothing clearly and distinctly, but only to name the Fathers, and from their names, to raise certain roving & uncertain suspicions. That which you writ of Chambers and pillows, I pass over as nothing else, but scoffing and reproachful taunts, such as is common in every varlet's mouth. Now you come to the next age, and here you mention Chrysostome, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome. But to what purpose I pray you? Chrysostom. for what if Luther do censure Chrysostome sharply, because by too much advancing our works and merits, he obscureth the righteousness of faith? what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene? Nazian. h DUR. You freely grant that Chrysostome, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome are on Campians side: and yet you pleasantly demand are these Fathers wholly yours? we, who are then true sons, do not challenge them as half Fathers, but wholly our Fathers. WHIT. pag. 370. When did I ever grant Campian so much? I should certainly do the Father's great injury, if I should adjudge them for Campian, who are so far different from him. And for your kindred with them; it is but as the jews were Abraham's children: for if you were the children of the Fathers, you would hold the faith of the Fathers. For the Scribes and pharisees were not the children of Moses, because they sat in Moses chair. Neither are they the children of the Saints, who hold the places of the Saints; as Hierome. Neither have they the inheritance of Peter, which have not the faith of Peter; as Ambrose: neither ought faith to be tried by persons, but persons by saith, as Tertullian hath written. We verily love and duly reverence the Fathers, yet we acknowledge but one Father in heaven, and one teacher, which is Christ. And if you acknowledge them wholly your Fathers, why do you forsake many of their opinions? therefore are these Fathers wholly on your side? what is this else but dotage, and to speak without wit or fear? Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the devil; Ambrose. whether any ever said it or no, I never knew, neither is it greatly material; the best & most righteous men, may sometimes be so far bewitched, as they do not in some things perceive the truth: and you do too openly bewray your malice, by labouring to raise an evil opinion of him, and to make us infamous for such speeches as may have a good construction, though at the first they seem odious. Certainly I have read many Papists, and heard of some, all passing shameless, and malepere; but more impudent than yourself, in all my life, did I never know any. There is no end of your lying, you fear no men's censure, there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speak. Even now you set upon Beza with a fresh lie. He (you say) hath written that Hierome is as surely damned, as the devil, because he was injurious to the Apostles, a blasphemous, a wicked, and an ungodly man. That Beza affirmeth not these things, I protest and a●ow: let any man that will, see the place; if it be otherwise, let me be accounted very infamous. For as for those first words, that Hierome was damned aswell a● the devil, either they are by malicious cavilling fetched out of some other place, as all the rest are, or altogether forged, as the most. In the place alleged, there is no such thing: Concerning that he saith of Injury and Blasphemy, I will set down Beza his own words, that all men may know your impudence. Even Hierome, Beza in annot. novi Testam. in Act. Apost. cap. 23. saith Beza, if it be true that Erasmus upon this place saith of him, is not only injurious to the Apostle, in that he findeth want of moderation, in this speech, wherein rather appeareth his Divine courage but also is openly blasphemous, in that even in Christ himself he hath found some sign of imperfection. Thus far Beza: the matter of his complaint, is about S. Paul's sharp answer unto the high Priest, in which Hierome, (as Erasmus testifieth) in his Dialogues against Pelagius, findeth some want of moderation, & not only so, but even in Christ himself, he looketh for some imperfection of piety; which reports of Hierome, if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth, why might not Beza justly esteem him, in the one injurious to the Apostle, in the other so blasphemous against Christ? For what can be devised more unworthy the Apostle then that in his answer to the high Priest, he should show too much spleen, or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ, than that the grace, wherewith he was endued, was imperfect. But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldness, in wresting the Scriptures, wherein he hath most just cause of complaint: for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures, or they are so weak and easy of themselves, as they may be any way turned. And truly he must be very desperate, that should defend Hieromes interpretations. Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin, then of a thousand Augustine's: Luther is not moved though a thousand Austin's, Cyprians, Churches▪ be against him. The answer is ready: whosoever speaketh truth, in that respect, is more to be esteemed, than a great multitude that could not discern the truth. They therefore that have observed the errors of the Fathers, either those you have named, or the rest, which here also you reckon up, Optatus, Athanasius, Hilary, Cyrill, Epiphanius Basil, Vincentius, Fulgentius, Lee, and Gregory of Rome, and have admonished the Readers of them; are so far from malapertness herein; as that contrary, they have performed a work, for the Church needful, profitable, and acceptable to all good and godly men. For as the true expositions of Scriptures, are to be expounded to the Churches, so are the contrary to be rejected. Hierom. Paul. August. Hierome saith well, it is the worst kind of teaching, to deprave sentences of Scripture, and to draw them perforce to serve our turns. Wherefore we profess with Augustine; All writers and their sayings must be i DUR. That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks, but by lawful Pastors and doctors. WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you? is it because they are Monks? I think not: or because they have departed from you? That is the matter; as it none might touch, read, & examine the scriptures, but those who have plight their troth to you, never to assent to the Scriptures, though they directly contradict popish doctrine we would willingly hearken to lawful Pastors, examining & interpreting the Scriptures, such as you have none. Because with you examinations must not be made by the rule of the scriptures, but after the will of the Pope, and all your Pastors have tied themselves to the judgement of the Romish Antichrist: that, that which they see, they will not see, if it displease the Pope, by whose spirit they are guided. judged, according to the holy Scriptures, the authority whereof is more excellent, than the whole nature of man is able to conceive: not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers, but I follow those that come nearest unto the Scriptures, and when the Scripture itself is manifest, I embrace it before them all. Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers, and examine them by the light of Scriptures, we do here nothing unwonted, nothing boldly or arrogantly; but you have always been fliers of the light of Scriptures, as Tertullian speaketh: Tertul. de Resurrect. and therefore do so diligently provide for lurking holes in the Fathers, that you may always have some place of refuge. For seeing Scriptures fail you, what remaineth, but that you seek aid from any, even the meanest? But you tell us, why we do so much avoid the Fathers. I had rather you would tell us why you do so carefully avoid the Scriptures. For (say you) they that cannot away with set times of Fasting, must needs be offended with Basil, Naziancene, Leo, and Chrysostome, which have published excellent Sermons of Lent. Christ ordained no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospel, k DUR. Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers, and knoweth not this to be self? for the observation of Lent is most ancient and ordained by the Apostles. WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most ancient, but not instituted by the Apostles; for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made laws for let and certain fasts; and Tertullian when he was become a Montanist, writeth as much in his book wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus. Again, the Apostles never put any religion in choice and change of meats, Rom. 14.17. Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1. 1●. and so ordained not Lene. Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast, both in their times, & in their kinds of meat; as Eusebius & socrates' record; which would never have been if it had been Apostolical, at least as Papists do affirm, who take in for a truth, that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees. Lent was appointed long after, and the manner of observing it in those times, was not one & the same in all Churches. We both allow and use public and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Church's occasions: as for your appointed, and yearly solemn fasts, we do with good reason reject them, because they are full of superstition, and injurious unto Christian liberty. Our judgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught: August. Epist. 86. I find it not set down in any Commandment of the Lord, or his Apostles, what days we ought to fast, what not. Augustine then knew not these your set yearly ceremonies of fasting, not your Lenten fast, which hath a certain time and number of days prescribed. Further (you say) they that have set their souls to sale for gold, lust, excess, and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil, Chrysostome, Hierome, and Augustine, whose books of the profession of Monks are in every man's hands? what will you censure all to be covetous, lustful, gluttonous, or ambitious that are not Monks? back with that foot you were best, for fear of your head: for neither the Pope, nor his Cardinals and Bishops, hold it either necessary, or convenient for them to lay aside, their abundant wealth, continual pleasures, their dainty fare, their kingly honour, and thrust themselves into a Monastery; whosoever liveth after their fashion, cannot be well affected to Basil, nor any man that is holy. l DUR. When you are overcome by the truth, you slander our lives, and speak evil of our persons. WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you, nor detract from you, the world hath understood long ago what manner of men you were. If you be grown better I should be glad of it. But I know men have judged otherwise of this order, and such as did not hate your Monastical life. For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did write thus to the Pope himself. There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men, for many are so deformed and out of order, that they are a great scandal to the people, and hurt much by their example. We think that all orders ought to be abolished. For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excess, making themselves drudges unto their ambitions, banquets, and delights. And to conclude: in the whole course of their lives, so behaving themselves, as becometh better sensual and voluptuous persons, proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures, then grave teachers out of Christ's School. Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame upon you, and hath done continually and most deservedly? you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well enough known to be your own fault; your Prelates and Monks, whose goodly order and strait rule of severe discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirm that they excelled all others, who giving themselves wholly over to pleasures, (while the most took great pains and always did something whereby to live) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath been your life, that others must seem not to live, if that be to live which you have esteemed. But what need I answer you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which have not one Monk in your whole Church any thing resembling those of ancient time, neither do you observe the old manner of fasting? but you go on, and upbraid us with fouler matters. They that have brought a bondage upon man's will, which have taken away Christian funerals, which have burned Saints relics can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) have wronged no Saints, we have neither burned their relics, nor taken away their funerals: m DUR. Therefore you have taken away the relics of the Saints, and the funerals of Christians, as superstitions and injurious to the majesty of God. WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so without judgement, that you cannot distinguish betwixt things and the superstitious use of them? It is not these not any comely burial we dislike, but Popish pomptions funerals and impious worshipping of relics. only we could not suffer any profane superstition, injurious to the Majesty and glory of God; and for this we have the direction of God himself, being our pattern whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with us: But we have captivated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected unto Augustine? well enough, why not? for (say you) he writ three books of free will. A most witless and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three books of free-will, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men have free-will. If that reason be currant, than this also: Augustine writ a book of two souls against the Manichees; also a book of lying; another of the quantity of the soul; ergo Augustine defendeth two souls in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatness & quantity to the soul. I pray you what difference is there? I grant Augustine writ those books you mention, but they overthrow not our opinion, who affirm that the will of man is in bondage: & if ever you had perused those books, you would never have affirmed it, nor once named the books in this matter. Augustine writ these books against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of man's free-will, which is the point in controversy, but of the cause of sin which proceeded from free-will, and he entitled those books of free-will, because in them he intendeth to show, that the original and beginning of sin is to be found in man's free-will, not in God. This you might easily have learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth. Retract. lib. 1.1. q. The discourse was undertaken for them that deny sin to have his original from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himself the author of nature is culpable. And so proceedeth, utterly denying, that he had any purpose in those books, to speak of that will, which is made free by God's grace. And whatsoever in these books passed his pen, which seemed to favour the Pellegians, than Patrons of free-will, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole work, and cleareth it from their cavils. Have we any cause to be offended with Augustine, which in this question is not against us? And that you may plainly perceive, how indiscreetly you alleged these books of free-will, mark what he writeth of the will of man in those same books: n DUR. Whereto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorance? all Catholics believe that the will of man, though free, is able to do nothing to merit heaven by, but by the grace of God. And you are ignorant that the freedom of will consisteth in this, that by no necessity it is carried to either part. WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time believed as much. But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace, and not made good by grace: so you teach that no new will is infused, but the natural is helped, and as it were unloosed by grace; which is not much from Pelagianisme: for both of you defend that the liberty of will remaineth in man's corrupt nature, that it need not be given him from above, but only by the help of grace, to be drawn out of certain difficulties, in which the corruption of sin had left it. And as for my ignorance I confess it, and think it more learned than your knowledge; for if those who do things necessarily, do them not freely, than neither God nor the devil worketh not freely; for God worketh well, and the devil evil, necessarily. So you see necessity is not opposed to free-will: for not necessity, but force and compulsion taketh away the freedom of the will. Hold thou fast (saith Augustine) this principal of piety, Delibere Arbit. 61.2. cap. 20. that no good thing happens unto thee, either when thou thinkest or understandest, or any way imaginest, which is not from God. And this was Augustine's constant opinion of free-will: after that being stirred by the Pellagians, he thoroughly understood the question, viz. that he judged it, to be utterly lost and gone. o DUR. The meaning of the place is this, that man so lost his free-will, that be lost himself; yet so as no man in his right wits will deny, but he is a man still. WHIT. pag. 384. You grant as much as we desire: for as man lost himself, and yet remained a man, but not such as he was, good, just, holy, endued with perfection, but clean changed: so the free will of man was lost, not that no will remained, but that it was changed from good to evil; for we say not there is remaining no free-will at all; but no good will: as we affirm not, there is no man at all remaining, but no good man. Man (saith he) by abusing his free-will lost both it and himself. Enchir. 3. But yet further you urge Augustine against us, for (say you) they that make their captious devices, the rule of their faith, must not they be offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was ever accounted a book: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against us? in which he professeth himself to agree with Antiquity, unity, perpetual succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so many heresies, hath attained unto the name Catholic by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdom and truth; else all the other bind us not; for they are of no value without that wisdom; but this wisdom and truth, though without these, is of itself to be preferred before all things: so saith Augustine, Cont. Fundam. cap. 4. if the truth appear manifestly, so as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be esteemed then p DUR Augustine affirmeth, that these cannot be without the truth. WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine showeth the contrary: for if truth cannot be separated from these, he had spoken very unfitly, when he said, he preferred the truth before all these. If you can take or rightly challenge the possession of truth, in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity, Unity, & Succession. all those reasons, that keep me in the Catholic Church. Thus than Augustine setteth more by the truth itself alone, and sincere wisdom, than all those things you mention, Antiquity Unity, Succession, and we perceiving this truth and wisdom so manifestly in our Churches, that none, that will see the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly give you free liberty to brag, whilst you list, of antiquity, unity, & succession, without the truth. There is then, as you see, no cause, why we should be angry with Augustine, either now or before. But at length you leave Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily think he was a good Father, and very like unto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men have said in his commendation. But he disproved the Donatists by the communion of the Catholic Church. Why should he not? or what doth that concern us? Augustine also observed the same course, and it was a good motive, that the communion of the Church should be objected to the schismatical Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselves from the Church. But we deny your Church to be Catholic, and therefore you cannot thus convince us, though Optatus might thereby confute the Donatists. It must first appear, that it is the Church, before we can be convicted of schism. The q DUR. So indeed Caluin answereth, but it will not serve your turn: for Opratus proveth himself to be in the Catholic Church, because he joined himself to Saint Peter's chair. WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peter's chair? the external seat, or the succession of Bishops? you shall never prove it, and the contrary I cen easily object out of Optatus himself. Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow, and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholic judgement. With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship, by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawful ordination: Optatus then proveth that he was a Catholic, because he kept the Catholic confession and conjunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops. Finally his argument was good against the Donatists, who did separate themselves from the communion of the Catholic Church, while they consented not with these Churches, where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawful ordination of Bishops did ever flourish. But it is nothing to us and you. Church of Rome was then the preserver of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a star in the sight of all other Churches: no marvel then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reverence of this Church, & urged the heretics with the example of it, Irenaeus. August. as a great prejudice unto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they allege the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, thereby proving that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honourable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falsehood. Restore us (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will never separate ourselves from her: but of that Church you have nothing left, but the walls and old rubbish, yet still you brag of the name of the Catholic Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the ancient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, but r DUR. What difference is there? the Donatists overthrew wooden Altany, and you Altars of stone. WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacrilege: not reproving the administration of the Sacrament, but the ordination of Bishops, which yet was lawful: we have cast down Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Mass and profane Idolatry. Is there no difference, think you? wooden, as you may see in Augustine's Epistle to Boniface: and I grant the members of Christ, and his s DUR. Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth upon the Altar. WHIT. pag. 390. I answer that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christ's body, and the name of the thing is given to the sign,, as is usual in all Sacraments. For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heaven at the right hand of his Father, where it shall remain to the end of the world. blood are received in the holy mysteries, but after a heavenly and spiritual manner, Epist. 50. appropriate unto our most holy faith. As for your devouring of flesh, Optatus was not acquainted with it, and the ancient Church of Christ, not so much as ever dreamt of so great a monster. They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they favour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speak wisely; as t DUR. But do you think Hermits are worthy of any praise, whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Grant we well approve of the old Hermits, yet may we think bad enough of your Monks, as we have done and profess it for just causes, seeing they differ both so much in manners and judgements. Antonius the Hermit's grandfather was want to say, that it was as dangerous for a Monk to go out of his hermitage, as for fishes to leave the water. If you praise Antony so much, why do you not follow him? why do you swarm in all cities and famous places, and do not rather live in some remote wilderness, as fishes swim in the Sea? so should you be more like to Antony, and free these parts from great damage. though we were so envious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else. Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synod of Alexandria, humbly appealed unto the sentence of the Apostolic Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as a u DUR. Because he was a Poet, forgot he to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verse, which infinite & learned ●athers have not done before in prose? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knoweth not that Poets were want to weigh what the verse required, more than what piety called for, and to follow the elegancy of poetry more than the straight doctrine of the Scriptures? And such liberty of Poet's men commonly find no great fault with: yet see how foolish it is to avow poetical exornations for reasons in the controversies of religion. And if Prudentius followed so many Fathers, why name you not one of them▪ For 300. years after Christ there was no such custom in the Church, which you affirm so infinite a number of Fathers used: and it rose up in the Church but a little before Prudentius days; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the word. Poet, sometimes called upon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious custom of praying to Saints had now taken deep root in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and jovinian, against whom Hirr●●●● writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintain them not. That * DUR. It seemeth you have nothing to answer to Ambrose at all. WHIT. pag. 393. Have I answered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church? was it not answer enough to show I allowed not the corrupt judgement of some Fathers? What gain you by this, if we profess freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamental points; whereas notorious corruption hath spread itself over your whole Church & consumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is grown to an height in you without hope of cure? Ambrose should be careful, to commend and set forth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither do we wholly mislike Gregory, with whom surely you have more cause to be offended, than we. But whereas he said that Images were laymen's books, he neither learned in x DUR. Answer me, in what school did you learn to break down Images? not in the schools of Christians, but of jews. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the school of the holy Ghost, Deut 5.8. Josh. 24.23. where we are taught to worship one God with religious worship, and to cast out of the Church, to break and burn the Images of men, though never so holy. Moses beat the Calf to powder, & the holy Ghost commended Hez●●●a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent, though it was set up by God● authority, when the Israelits abused it to super●●●ion; how much more ought we to destroy profane Images & monuments of cursed idolatry? Epiphanius being taught in this school rend the vail which was hung up in the temple, having painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint. As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia, who took down & broke the Images of his time. I have learned this then not out of the schools of the jews, ●innike● and Idolaters, but out of the schools of Christians, which may not be polluted with Images. the school of the holy Ghost, nor found y DUR You show your ignorance or impudence, when you know not, or deny that which is every whereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domasen, Augustine, Gregory Nissen. Metaphrastes, Athanasius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather show your rashness & desire to deceive; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius, & partly not to the purpose by them I understand that Images were made, but they prove not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped. Your reason concludeth not, There were Images among the Christians before the times of Gregory: therefore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worshipped of them with holy worship. it in the books of the Fathers that were before him; and thus at length, have you finished this long catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would feign know, that moved you to go through them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish yourself to think, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Caluin and their confederates, do write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostome, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi●●zen, do otherwiles err in some questions in this or that book, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceived, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reject and condemn all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you yourselves, being very often by plain authorities of the Father's convinced, deny flatly that you are tied to the authority of any father, and from them you appeal to the judgement of the Church? Would you not think yourself hardly dealt withal, if hence I should infer, that you disallow the Father's whole volumes? But this is the issue of your disputation, and the mark whereat all this your discourse aimeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a heinous and unhard-of wickedness. Think not (Campian) our University to be so childish that they cannot discern the indifferency of our proceeding herein, from your unjust calumniation. The Fathers we esteem highly, we peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently study Divinity. By this means we increase our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraid to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholics opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, thrown in corners, which without much pains and weariness you could not collect, yet your fellows of late years have diligently sought out and published: Whilst they (say you) are to be sold at the Stationers, so long our men's books are in vain prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessity restrain, your books are such as it behoveth us to stop their passage, unless we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresy, and men's minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to prevent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious books be nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and unlearned men do suck poison of deadly error. Neither are we the first that have taken this course. You may remember in Queen Mary's time, that they proceeded by marshal law against all those, with whom any of our books were found. If this were in us a matter worthy of death, so that we were by and by drawn to punishment, as men guilty of high treason, and that without any iud●●●al proceed, small reason have you to look, that your books now, should have such free liberty, to be every where publicly sold. We take order, that the books of the holy Fathers, are brought unto us from every mat, we buy them, we have them in our private studies and public Liberarie a wo● place them in open view, that they be known; nor only by face, but by daily familiaricie. Where you affirm, that neither , nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more ●●gerly inneigh against those dreams, than the Fathered before mentioned: you have added this saying as an overplus to the things that went before. These your old soldiers have employed in this case, whatsoever, either reading or leisure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply unto them, and for all this have gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to perform that, wherein they have failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combat. I bewail (Campian) your rashness, and foolish hardiness, which will needs take upon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the undoubted loss of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherein you may make trial of your strength in the combat which you desire. john jewel (say you) challenged the Catholics, when you were a young student, calling upon and desiring the help of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. years after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himself able to perform: he had read over all the Fathers with special judgement and diligence; he saw how you deceived the ignorant, he had a care to preserve his countrymen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would have it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists unto this trial, viz. if they could confirm their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witness of Fathers and Counsels, they should overcome: if they failed, they should confess themselves were vanquished. Certain renowned men (say you) living as Exiles as Losane, entertain th● offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captain of these, he adventured himself hand to hand, in this combat, but how worthily performed he the condition? Jewel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certain Clements, Abdies, Marshals, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, and others of this rank, Fathers of worshipful antiquity: If all the ancient Fathers of the Church, be (as you brag) of your side, why should Harding turn his back so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most weighty cause wherein we demanded the judgement of antiquity, a company of upstart bastards, I know not fromwhence, whom no man before had saluted, seen or heard of, passing by of purpose, the known and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reverend antiquity you talk of? must we have these fellows digged out of their graves, to help you in your desperate cause? hear me (Campian) that which jewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the trial of six hundred years antiquity, offering also to yield you the victory, if you brought one plain and manifest authority, out of any Father or Council; that same we do all profess and promise, and will surely perform it. Twenty years are expired, and not one of you hitherto could perform the condition: if you persuade yourself to have more sufficiency hereunto, than your masters before have had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you have read nothing, you have no strength answerable to such an endeavour. The learned Humphrey did not tax jewel, as if he had too liberally undertaken for the Fathers, or performed less than he promised; but only that he had yielded further unto you, than he needed, and called back the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he disinherited any thing, the trial of Scriptures; for he knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beat down that their insolent and most false brag of antiquity, which prevailed with many. You say further that you have conferred sometimes familiarly with To●y Matthew, and w●●led him to answer freely, whether he that read the Fathers diligently, could be of that part which ●e favoured. Although in private and familiar conference we say many things, which we would not have further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Matthew gave you such an answer, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his judgement and wisdom. We must not in all things believe the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend upon their word. Sometimes they have erred and been the occasion of errors unto others; yet may we read them, & by their truths be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to be the only man amongst us conversant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you have thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without fear come into the battle and fight with us. You are still telling us of armies, skirmishes, wars, camps and of your battles: but you should remember that the trial of war is common to both sides, and the issues of battles uncertain. The and of war lieth in the strength of arms, not in the stoutness of words. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The sixth Reason, which is the foundation of the Fathers. IF ever that saying ( a job. 5. search the Scriptures) was loved, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst us; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conveyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they delivered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their pains and teachings, have they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole days and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of every Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselves, even until crooked old age crept upon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also upon the authority of their Ancestors, upon the common practice of the Church, upon the succession of Bishops, upon general Counsels, upon Traditions of the Apostles, upon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, upon the decrees of Pre●●●s, upon strange signs and marn●●●●us ●●●racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they urge, upon these they make their habitation, to these Scriptures as unto the coat b Cant. 4. armour of valiant soldiers, they worthily yield the highest and most honourable place, like noble captains, daily descending the Catholic Church, which is the city of God, by them kept in good repair, against all mischievous assaults of her enemy: the which thing maketh me the more to marvel, at that proud and foolish exception of the adversary, who like one that seeketh for water in the running river, complaineth for the scarcity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleged. So long he saith he is content to be judged by the Fathers as they serve not from the Scriptures. Doth he speak as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most ancient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great shall come forth well armed and upholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England, which those Fathers did had and defended. reign in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may reign in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so lovingly have builded up out of the Scriptures. Look what Scriptures they bring, we will bring the same; look what Scriptures they confer, we will confer the same; look what Scriptures they allege, we will allege the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a God's name, and tell me plainly what you think. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? o now I know, after thy own fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind entreat dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Universities, that most freshly flourish, there will join together a great number of such as will look into these controversies; not grossly, but with sharp judgement, and will weigh these men's trifling answer not partially, but in equal balance; I will therefore, with a cheerful courage expect this day of battle, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christ's Church, against a monkes● multitude of ragged Rogues. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the sixth Reason, which is the foundation of the Fathers. I Cannot well conjecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may be, which you propound unto us. As touching the fathers we have given you your answer, and have plainly proved, that they afford no foundation for you to build your cause upon. And it is probable that you thought so yourself; therefore you judged it not safe for you to rest in them, unless you brought forth certain foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselves. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might show you esteemed their sayings as divine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would jump with you in that point, you now endeavour by certain foundations to fortify and strengthen the authority of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinews of this disputation is this a DUR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reprove you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, who flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confess, I swerved not much from his sense. But think you the reason is of force? The ancient Fathers have diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they never erred in their interpretation. If i● hold in the Fathers, why not in others which do search the Scriptures as well as they? which if you once grant, you overturn your own cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet were there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, who either writ nothing at all, or their writings are perished; so that what they delivered, we possibly cannot know: what a vain thing is it then to brag of the consent of all, when you can hardly name twenty in the most flourishing age that ever was, whose books came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controversy can you bring against us, except it were in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gave to his Church, were men, such as might err, and who had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures. The Fathers have searched the Scriptures most diligently, they have heaped up store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they have attributed the chief place to these: therefore we ought to be content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sin we may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verily I profess you have laid these things down so faintly and loosely, that I can hardly discern their scope: for what, I pray you, can be spoken more loosely? The fathers have diligently laboured to understand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they have never erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more than one of them cannot be true. I will give you one example for a thousand. b DUR. We confess every Father may err●, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did ever fall into any error, which was contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this were not a matter of faith, whether S. Paul lied, or whether he ingenuously reproved S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, than may it be lawful for us to dissemble, and after confirm it with a lie; both which are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissensions you stand not upon, you desire to see some general, when you grant every particular may err, will it not follow that all may? But see an example. In the Council of Constantinople held under Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Council under Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Council held in Germany, this decree was again condemned. One of these certainly must needs be deceived. Again, have you forgotten that Augustine with Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did think it necessary that the Eucharist should be given to Infants? which error continued a long time in the Church. Think you these are not points of faith? S. Paul writeth, Gala. 2.11. that at Antioch he withstood Peter to his face: what a kind of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of yourself find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and happily you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you go to the fathers, you inquire of Hierome, August. & Hieron. in Epistol. and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latin Church. What do they tell you? Augustine think that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thought Hierome that he spoke feignedly. If you approve the one, you must needs reject the other; for you cannot consent with both. Six hundred of this kind I could propound unto you. I know how, saith Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. Hieron. in Epist. ad Theophilis. They ever sp●●k● the tr●●●, these as man have erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conversant in them, and spent themselves wholly in meditating upon them. From these you may discern how your accusation is most unjust, and our defence most equal and just. I desire not to diminish the father's due and worthy commendations: so you will confess they are men, extol them with all the praises you can to the very heavens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer us to do: then I doubt not but this fight would have a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his own voice, and commended to our diligent search, you fly from and abhor, as thieves do the gallows, you abandon them out of men's sight, and yet you have never done searching; for you compass sea and land to find out old traditions and customs long ago dead and buried, men's inventions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, feigned and forged books, diriges, scraps; dreams and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, c DUR. We allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can well and safely do it. And then we account the search good and sound, when men are able to interpret them not out of their own heads, but by the authority of the ancient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You show your good nature, that you will not reprove that which is well done. But may none else read the Scriptures, but men qualified as you writ? then very few must spend their labour in them. But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures, not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers, yea and he commanded all whosoever to seek eternal life, and desire to know Christ, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only. as Christ hath commanded, Origen. in Isas. hom. 1. and the ancient fathers have done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would do that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, unwritten verities, the Pope's Canons, we would willingly set up our rest there; but when we are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, do not much blame us, if we so far, as you speak, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot justly blame that in us which you confess is commendable in them. d DUR. If you think Christ commanded all, you are greatly deceived, for how should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures? who as Augustine witnesseth must be saved, not by sharpness of understanding, but by simplicity of believing. Moreover Christ gave unto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the books of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spoke to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the jews to search the Scriptures, why not all Christians? but that they ought, is proved by these places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chrysostome upon that place, Hom. 9 Hierome upon the same. Origen. in Jsaiam hom. 2. Chrysost. in Euangel. joan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keep them so. But they verily ought to have knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would have it, doth not maintain the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any subtle knowledge: all must believe, which none can do without the knowledge of the Scripture, but the same quickness of understanding is not required in all. Finally Christ who gave them teachers, gave them also the Word; neither were the Pastors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; why then speak you thus? as if these things ordained one under another were contrary: It is worthy the observing, that in your judgement Christ gave not the Scriptures unto the people; if then they read them, they meddle with other men's right. For Christ commanded us aswell as them, to search the Scriptures. That therefore which is enjoined us both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to find out. And do you judge it equal, e DUR. Who will believe that you have found out, that they could not? or who are you that accuse them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am so far from accusing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers have often and greatly erred, which you must confess whether you will or no: why may not we, who are commanded to read the Scriptures aswvell as they, hold fast the truth we have found, and reject the errors they have delivered? who while they lived, ingenuously confessed themselves ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a few, and would also do no less if they were alive again. that if they have erred in searching, we should tread in their steps, and reject the truth we have found out? For wheresoever they find out the truth they sought after, we receive it and consent with them. And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we speak unfeignedly; we will subscribe to the fathers, while they consent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing please you? so it seemeth. For you say, You will see that these most ancient writers, S. Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great, shall come forth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandment, neither serve for wages in your tents? will you compel them against their wills to bear arms in your camps? It is more than you can do: they will not endure themselves to be thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they will not answer to those names: yea, both these now named by you, and all ancient fathers do proclaim open war against you, and if you please, let us spend a little time in the trial of it. This Devis whosoever he was cannot be on your side, while you maintain f DUR. We Catholics neither defend nor acknowledge a private Mass●, for all Masses are said by a public Minister of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the salvation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word, you defend such a Mass as the Church knew not in the days when Denys lived; for your Masses are performed by one, but the form he speaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a public Minister do it, yet that being done of one must needs be private, specially when either there are no people present, or if they be present, yet they do nothing but look on: and what profit can come to them by that he doth? as if that meat the Priest eateth feedeth the people. Besides Christ never ordained such an offering, himself once offered, is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Again, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits shall they have by it, if they do? Lastly if the whole people may receive salvation from that Mass which they neither taste, see, nor yet dream of, why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith, though we be far disjoined from his body. private Mass. For he hath described the public communion of the whole Church, such as Christ at the first instituted, and the ancient Church ever held. The very same thing doth justine the Philosopher and martyr, justin. Apol. 2. who in his Apology before Anthony the Emperor, laid open the order of discipline, which Christ held in his holy assembly. At that time the whole people received g DUR. If you had but lightly read over justine, you would never have been so impudent, for he altogether alloweth our judgement, and no where speaketh he of bread and wine given to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might have seen the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say, his own words shall manifest all. They, who with us are called Deacons, give to every one that is present part of the bread, wine and water, for which thanks are given. Can any thing be said more contrary to your, and more manifest for our opinion. bread & wine, now with you they receive neither. h DUR. Yet Cyprian writ thus Epist. 55. The primacy is given to S. Peter that it might appear there is one Church and one chair. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius who hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margin into the text, as appeareth by ancient copies. And Gratian also observed the same, Causa. 24.9.1. loquitur. Cyprian makes all the Apostles equal with Peter, Cyprian. de Simplicitat. praelat. Lib. 1. Epist. 4. and directly affirmeth that they have like honour and authority with him, and forbids all appeals to the Bishop of Rome. Therefore he must needs deest your Pope, who preferreth himself both in dignity & authority before all other Bishops, & from all parts draws unto his courts all appeals. i DUR. Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeal. WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well, you shall find that he inveigheth against certain false Bishops, who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Africa for just causes, would have the causes pleaded again at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop. And in his discourse. 1. He showed that causes ought to be heard where the crimes are committed. And so not things done in Africa, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that every Bishop hath his portion of the flock, for which he must give an account. Than not the Bishop of Rome the whole, nor the administration of all causes: finally he calleth them desperate and forlorn men, who thought the authority of the Bishops of Africa to be less then of the Bishops of other countries, and so with reproach he rejecteth the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome. Is there here any thing less than we have affirmed? Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without question. Lactan. 2. cap. 19 k DUR. Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, which he condemneth because they are made of the earth: besides the jeves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, such as your Church is full of, and so can there be no religion in it. Besides your Images are no more heavenly than theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themselves, as he writeth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they worshipped not the Images, but the God, expressed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the most holy place, into which the people might not enter, not yet look in: and show us particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and we have done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth every where all others. There can be no religion wheresoever there is an image. If he now lived and saw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any sign of true Religion? Athanasius affirmeth, Athanas. conts a Gentas. That the holy Scriptures given by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all truth: wherein with one word he hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DUR. Will not all your University men account you a cosener, when Athanasius joineth the books of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius, say as much as I affirm: The Scriptures are sufficient of themselves, why do you reproach me? but he addeth the books of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries upon them. For, saith he, by reading of them a man may in some measure understand the sense of the Scripture. These words make not for you, neither against us, therefore I used neither cozening nor deceit. traditions. Epiphanius sharply reproveth certain foolish women, Epipham. lib. 3. Haeres. 79. who worshipped the virgin Mary with a certain new kind of worship, and condemneth all that superstition. m DUR. Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproveth ●omen for offering up sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a● to a Guildable. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honouring of Saints and not of sacrificing only; his words are plain. ●et none of the Saints be adored. The word he useth signifieth to bow and prostrate ourselves, and to worship one with Divine honour; which being proper to God you impiously give to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none, saith he, worship the Virgin Mary. What would he say if he now saw not only foolish women, but also men, and all mortal wights n DUR No Catholic doth offer up sacrifice or perform vows to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confess you do such things to the honour of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer up sacrifices and vows to God in honour of the Saints? let me demand of you as Epiphanius of these women; what Scriputre speaks any thing of this matter? Then answer; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether soever, Epiphanius saith It is foolish, strange, and that which proceeded from the spirit of Devils Again, who knoweth not that you offer up prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either so greatly covetous, or so little superstitious, but he voweth somewhat to some Saint, specially to the Virgin Mary offering up sacrifices and vows to the Virgin Mary? Basil. in Epist. ad Cleric Neocaesariae. Basil is the author, that in his days there was a o DUR. Basil doth not say it was the custom of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you have not read Basil, read the place and you shall find these words there. The chrome we now keep, is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Egypt, Africa, Thebes, Palestine, and all who use singing of Psalms. custom in all Churches, that the people repeated the Psalms in the holy assemblies. But in your Churches the people can p DUR. As if the public prayers of the Church did not profit the people, unless they understand the 〈◊〉: what a foolish dream is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dream with the Apostle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that speaketh a strange tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God, vers. 6. If I come unto you speaking divers tongues, what shall I profit you? Strange tongues than profit not, unless your tongues have some more Divine power then the Apostles tongue had. neither hear nor understand those things which are read; but are only deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shows. q DUR. Gregory never thought so, but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent than any human condition; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians, but of that which is spent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I prove it easily out of his words. Hierome the Philosopher, saith he, proposed unto himself to know whether of our lives was more to be wished for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that every man was not borne for himself only, but for all others, who bear the same nature with him, he embraced this common life rather than that solitary life. Doth he not now prefer this life? and from the praise he giveth the other, he hath somewhat detracted, when he showeth that it is only for themselves, and so less profitable and fruitful? Finally what is a Christian life, but that which is spent in the duties of charity, for all Christians are bound unto these duties. Then notwithstanding all these, Gregory is still with us. Nazianzen. de haer. Philosoph. Nazianzene speaketh no less honourably of this civil and sociable life, than of the solitary life of Monks: which your cloister men cannot endure. Ambros. in Rom. cap. 1. r DUR. Ambrose codemneth suffragators, not intercessors, that is, such as might inform God, what we are, not such as might commend our wants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an intercessor, as what we are without a suffragator. If he do, why should the one be allowed more than the other? This new distinction of yours, I think our University men, neither know, not will acknowledge: or what is intercession but a suffragation? or what do you else desire of the Saints, but that they would speak favourably for you to God? Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them, who think it necessary for them, when they would go to God to use some mediators, as men do in courts of Princes, before they can be brought to the King himself, they must seek the favour of some of his near attendants. Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this speech draw blood of you? who never ask any thing of God in your prayers, but first you seek some of the Saints to be a mediator for you, to whom you commend the care of your business and requests. Hieron. Ep. s DUR Hierome never writeth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his sons and the Levites. Epist. ad evagr. And if there be equality, it is in jurisdiction, not in power of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop, and a Priest are all one: and this he proveth by many testimonies of the Scripture. And upon the 1. chap. to Titus, he affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is above a Priest by custom, not by God's ordinance. And so must that be understood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle. And where you acknowledge the same jurisdiction of both by the law of God (which happily slipped from you unawares) their unequal power must needs be only by the law of man. Hierome did too much contemn your Pope, and other your glorious Bishops, when he writeth that a Priest and a Bishop, by the law of God are all one; do you judge him worthy to be a Father of the Romish Church, the Bishop whereof you make not only to be far above all Priests, but also all Bishops? t DUR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, lest any of the manichees. who superstitiously and wickedly abstained from blood, might look among the Catholics. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answer, though your Gratian be against it. But who seethe not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause, who make the manichees the first author of the dismembering of the Supper. But whosoever did it, Gelatius censureth it thus. The division of one and the same mystery cannot be without great sacrilege. And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacrilege. Gelasius who himself was a Bishop of Rome, condemneth your dry and maimed supper as Sacrilegious, and strictly commandeth, De consecrat dist. 2. Comperimus. Vigil. lib. 1. cont. Eutych. that either the whole be received, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authority of the Pope move you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from us in his human nature. u DUR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrew from the world the visible presence of his humanity, and not the human nature himself. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after show the clean contrary. He therefore is with us, and not with us, because whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forsaken in his Divinity. And again, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. when he was in the earth, he was not in heaven: and now that he is in heaven, he is not in the earth. And again: he was circumscribed in a place according to his human nature, and not contained in a place according to his Divinity: this is the Catholic confession and faith, which the Apostles have delivered; the Martyrs have confirmed, and the faithful have kept to this day. If this be the Catholic faith, then are not you Catholics who judge far otherwise of the humanity of Christ. The Son of God in his human nature is gone from us: but in his divine nature he is always with us, whereas you say Christ is present in both natures. * DUR. Chrysostome, because he saw many so addicted and given to theatres, stage plays, and impious Interludes, did thus admonish them, lest they should distaste the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it so: have you also no impious places and spectacles and profane exercises? And yet with you any thing is lawful, save reading of the Scriptures. But who so readeth Chrysostome, in joan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9 de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simply, necessarily, and generally of all men. Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles, Chrysost add Coloss. hom. 9 & in joan. hom. 8. read the Scriptures, and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would confer among themselves of the Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certain proof of an heretic, for any to have the Bible in his house. What shall I say of Augustine, who in the greatest and most principal controversies, as of grace, predestination, free will, justification, the Scripture, the Law, the Gospel, sin, good works, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I should never make an end if I should pursue particulars, and collect but a little of every thing. Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 30. & 34. Gregory the great, though he was a Bishop of Rome, yet will he take our part against you: For tell me, doth he not touch your Pope to the quick, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whosoever should call himself the x DUR. Gregory condemned john, because he sought for such an authority over all Bishops, as the Emperor had over the Kings, who are subject unto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether john of Constantinople sought such a power or no; it is not certain: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority over the Bishops, but hath subdued the Emperor himself: which john of Constantin●ple never once assayed to do. Gregory telleth us what he meaneth by universal Bishop, he who endeavoureth to bring into subjection to himself all the members of Christ by the title of universal. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who subjecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head: neither did ever any Emperor rule more tyrannously over his Kings and vassals, than the Pope hath over the Bishops of all Churches. universal Bishop, undoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome. john of Constantinople being a proud man, and very insolent, and ambitious, first challenged this unto himself: Gregory while he lived earnestly and constantly withstood him. And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople, and given to the Bishop of Rome. Leave trifling, Campian, and even tell me plainly, y DUR. Who seethe not in what sense th●se Bishops of Rome would not this name unto themselves, though they always professed them Bishops of the universal and Catholic Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not mean to be understood of any who speak on this manner: but tell us, is the Pope universal Bishop or no? If he be, how cometh the change, that, that which was Antichristian in the Patriarch of Constantinople by the judgement of Pelagius & Gregory, both Bishops of Rome, should be Catholic and holy in the Pope? For that which so insolently john of Constantinople took unto himself, and enjoyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earnestly took unto himself, and translated to his successors, as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca. They then have not only the thing, but the name, and so are Antichristian. if that name in the Bishop of Constantinople was a sign of the approaching of Antichrist, why may we not judge it in the Bishop of Rome, a notable ensign of the same Antichrist? now I have given you a taste by which you may judge other things: you must either get you other fathers, or for all these you must needs yield as overcome. Do we at length speak without riddles? what is it you else desire of us? wherefore Campian, get you into this camp, and show forth all your valour: you shall verily find you have to deal, not with naked and unarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harnessed adversaries. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The seventh Reason, which is the History. THe ancient Histories of former times, do plainly discover the true form of the Primitive Church, thither do I appeal: as for the ancient Historiographers, Generales Historici. whose authority all the adversaries do sometime usurp, these are well nigh all of them. Eusebius, Damasus, Hierome, Ruffinus, Orosas, Socrates, Sozomenus, Theodoretus, Cassiodorus, Gregory of Tours, Oswaldus, Regino, Marianus, Sigibertus, Sonoras, Cedrenus, Nicephorus. What song, I pray you, do these men sing? a song in praise of Catholics of their prosperous proceed, of their interchangeable alterations, & what enemies they had; yea moreover (which I would have you well to mark) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake, Hareticorun Chronica & Historica. Anno Dom. 1500. to wit, Philip Melangthon, Pantalion, Functius, and the Magdeburgeans, when they went about, to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiastical History, they should have had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. years after Christ, except they had gathered together the acts of those men, that take our part, and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church. Consider also the particular Historiographers of some special countries, Historici certarum Gentium. who bended themselves curiously and busily to search out the special affairs of every such people as they undertook to write of. These as men desirous by all means they possibly could to enrich and beautify that work they had in hand, omitted not so much as banqueting feasts, or long sleeved coats, or strange haftes of daggers, or gilded spurs, and such like trifles, but they made mention thereof, if it had any smack of novelty. These men doubtless, if there had been any alteration in religion, or any digression, from their former faith, which was in the Primitive Church, that had come to their ears, many of them would have recorded it: if not many, yet some few of them at the least; if not some few, yet some one or other doubtless would have made mention thereof. * This is false, for many have made mention of the corruption of the Church. But no body at all, neither friend nor foe, made any muttering, or gave any inkling of any such matter. As for example sake, the adversaries grant (because they cannot otherwise choose) that the Church of Rome, was once an holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even then when it deserved these commendations of a Rom. 1. S. Paul, Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. I cease not to remember you in my prayers. I b Rom. 15. know that when I come unto you; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of c Rom. 16. Christ. All the Churches of Christ do greet you, for your obedience is spread abroad in all places. Then also, when S. Paul having free d Act. 28. liberty of the prison, there preached the Gospel abroad. Then also, when S. Peter governed the Church, gathered together long ago in that City of Rome, which he called by the e 1. Pet. 5. name of Babylon. * Campian acknowledgeth that Rome is Bayblon. The when that same S. f Hieron. in cap. semp. Eccl. & Papias apud E●s●b. 2. Hist. 15. Clement, whom the g Philip. 4. Apostle so highly commendeth, was chief head of that Church: then also, when h Fren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Inst, lib. 4. cap. 2. num. 3. & in Epist. ad Sadol. vide Co●l in Anno 1523. Heathen Emperors, as Domitian, Nero, Trajan, and Antonius most cruelly murdered the Bishops of Rome. Then also, * This is false, Caluin testifieth no such thing. Caluin himself doth witness, * This is false, Caluin testifieth no such thing. when Damasus, Syticius, Anastasius, and Innocentius were governors of the Sea Apostolic. For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swerved, especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospel. At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul? when fainted faith which before so flourished? In what age, under what Pole, upon what occasion, by whose compulsion, by whose power, hath a new strange Religion invaded, not only that city of Rome, but the whole world beside? what outcries, what rufflings, what weeping and wailing hath it caused? were all men in all the world beside in a dead sleep, while Rome, I say, Rome brought forth new Sacraments, new sacrifice, and new doctrine of religion? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greek, neither abroad nor at home, which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his books of so notable a matter, though it had been never so slenderly. Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough, if the History which is a faithful witness of antiquity, and the life of memory, do in many and sundry places copiously entreat and spoke of that faith which we profess: and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirm, that, that faith which the adversaries do thrust upon us, was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholic Church; then are all the Historiographers on our part, and the invasions of the adversaries are not frivolous, and such as can make no man afraid, except it be first granted, that all Christians throughout every age, have fallen to gross infidelity and consequently into the deep pit of hell; until that Friar Luther committed adultery with the Nun Katherine Bore. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the seventh Reason, which is the History. NOw you call us to History, the witness of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that have taken pains in publishing the Ecclesiastical History, their names you set down, and like dumb shows, you carry them in great pomp: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that have published any History were sufficient for the remembrance, and searching out the monuments of Antiquity. What insolent new kind of Logic is this, to reckon up the Historians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your own? Have you of late from above procured this privilege, that whatsoever you lay your hands upon, shall by and by become yours? we have long since perused the ancient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set down, and we find not that they favour you more than us. If in them be some things against us, many more, and more weighty testimonies they have against you, and such as give you a deadly wound; else would we never have collected the Histories of the ancient Church so accuratelie, and diligently, penning them exactly, and distinguishing the several ages and times; neither would we have published them in the world, if they were so contrary unto us, as you surmise: for who have taken more pains to find out, or more faithfully restored the Ecclesiastical Histories, than our men, without whose labours many monuments of Antiquity had been buried in darlinesse? We therefore will never deny this trial of Antiquity, and seeing you appeal to ancient Histories, we condescend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to those things which were apparently blemishes in the ancient Church. Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done, do not so much teach us what ought to be done, but have an eye to that which was then performed, and by that means set down many things worthy of reprehension, rather than imitation: and for the most part it happens, that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and ever the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaim that we seek evasions, and very perversely you slander us, that because we do not allow all, we refuse all. They that reform what is amiss, do not blame the rest that is not faulty. Strive while you list (Campian) and cry out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares must we bring you to the judgement of the Scriptures. And herein, Campian, you very much a DUR. And why may not Campian trumph, for what impudency is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies; and yet you cannot tell, when one of them ever began, in what Pope's time, by what means, how it increased in the Church? WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons, not railings. But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt, because we cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt? but being so manifest as it is, what need we search the Histories to show the beginning? what I pray? if you see a man sick of the pestilence, a city corrupt with riot and wickedness, a house ruinous and ready to fall, a ship sinking; will you deny all these, unless one can tell you the time when he began to be sick, the means how the city grew corrupt, who was ownet and in what year the house grew ruinous, and in what da●e the ship began first to leak? And what is the force of your reason and demand other than this? But, do not your own Histories tell when and by whom innovations and corruptions entered? see a few of them. He that first usurped authority over other Churches was Pope Victor, after him Zozimus, Boniface, Celestive, and the● successura. Pope Syricius first forbade Priests marriages. The manichees first denied the Cup to the people. The Nicene Council first ordained worshipping of Images. Pope Nicolas the second, first taught: the body of Christ must carnally be handled, broken and eaten. Pope Jnnocent the third, first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Boniface the third, that the Pope was the head of all Churches. Gregory the great taught Purgatory first for a certain truth. The Florentine Council, that the Pope was above Counsels. Jnnocent the third, brought in auricular confession. If these were not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more. triumph, when you demand at what time, under what Bishop, by what way, and proceeding, was a new religion spread over the City of Rome, and the whole world: and do not doubt, but that if any change and declining had been, many writers would have made mention of it, or divers, or one at the least. It is hard for us to answer at what time, neither is it necessary to set down the very instant of time. All things were not at once overturned in the Church of Rome, sin and wickedness came to his height by degrees, and by leisure to ripeness; the hairs of our head are not all grey of a sudden, neither doth any thing suddenly come to his maturity, and the growth of every thing appeareth long after. This is manifest in such things, as having small beginning go on forward unto a greater quantity, until they come to perfection; you cannot deny, but there was a great alteration of Religion, in the Church of b DUR. It is not hard to know the heresies of the jew, for Philastrius, Epiphanius, josephus, have written of them. WHIT pag. 484. It is as easy to know the heresies of Christians, being more in the Christian Church then ever were in the Church of jerusalem, and of these also have many books been written. jerusalem, what then? was the change all at once? show us then how those novelties entered into the Church, what time, what way, who was Bishop, and by what proceed it increased. You Romanis● condemn the Greek Church, and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours. c DUR. You require an easy thing; for the authors of the heresies of the Greek Church, we can easily number out of their stories, Samosatenus, Eutyches, Sergius, Arrius, Nestorius, Macedonius, and such like. WHIT. pag. 486. It is a wonder that you will object these heresies unto the Greek Church: when you cannot be ignorant but that more and more horrible heresies sprung up in the Romish Church, and almost in the midst of Rome: For Valentinus, Martion, Cerdon, Florentius, Blasius, Tatianus, Novatus, Pelagius, Julianus, Celestinus, and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome. If you answer the Latin Church condemned these; I can answer so for the Greek Church. And if you think you have objected well in numbering certain heresies of the Greek Church, you may think I have answered aswell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church. Declare now unto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church, which you demand for your own. Point out the time, the Bishop, and the growth of their Apostasy. As the alteration of these Churches was then easy to be discerned when it first began, though now it be very hard to find out those circumstances: so we see plainly a great change in the Church of Rome, yet can we not certainly pronounce the several times of their several declining. Many are manifest, which were too long to rehearse, and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons. The case was with the Church of Rome, as we see it is in a great building: for as a house which is strongly built at the first, continueth so of itself a long time after sound and whole; but if for a time it be left and neglected, it beginneth in some place to decay, and to be full of chinks, which in time wax big by degrees, till they threaten ruin to the posts and roofs themselves, and at length by this means, the whole building is ruinated and falleth down: so the Roman Church in process of time declined from her ancient estate, and by the infection of error and superstition daily prevailing, at length she lost the very spirit and life of the Church. Eusebius reporteth, that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus, had written of the Church, that she was, whilst the Apostles lived, a chaste and undefiled Virgin. For then they that would have altered the holy pattern of sound doctrine, did it faintly and fearfully, not daring to creep out of their holes. d DUR. O horrible fact! o intolerable wickedness! with what face can you thus speak, if you remember how Christ promised his spouse perpetual preservation? Hose. 2.20. Isa, 59.21. Psal. 131.17. and such like WHIT pag. 4●8. If your arguments were as great as your outcries, who could deal with you? That the Church may be corrupted, see these places Matth. 13.25. 1. Cor. 5.6. 2. Cor. 11.3. Isay. 1.21. Gal. 1.6. and 2.1. Further what have I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. & 10. have not before time written? And when I writ these things, I remembered well those promises and many other of that kind. But I know that they belong to the Church of the elect, and hinder not, but that particular Churches may be corrupted by error and false doctrine. DUR. Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates, but from Hegesippus, who called the Church a Virgin, because heretics as yet had not openly opposed her, and corrupted the seats of the Apostles: and did not say that she was corrupted after them. WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great which of them spoke the words, for whosoever shall wergh the words, shall see that the sense of them is as I have said. And if the Church was ever to remain a chaste and pure Virgin, how foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin, or what may his meaning be else then that the Apostles being dead, she began to be corrupted, which the words following prove, when that age was overpassed; then she began to be corrupted with impious error? Yea and when you say that as yet heretics had not assaulted her, nor invaded the tents of the Apostles, either you say nothing, or you grant that after the Apostles time, they did assault her, and prevail against her. But after that the Apostles departed unto the heavenly mansions, and none of that age left, that had been hearers of Christ himself, neither any of the Apostles living, than began abominable error to gather strength, and openly in the Churches to advance itself. What more pregnant testimony of antiquity and history can you desire? Whilst the Apostles lived the Church was a Virgin, assoon as they were dead, she became corrupted, and the mischief no doubt in time increased and spread itself abroad. But I wonder that this e DUR. Nay rather if he were living he would wonder at your fo●lie, who are either so ignorant or so forgetful, that you observe not, how Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new controversy about the cele bration of the Passeover. WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policy you pass over this place in silence, without answer; and tell us a tale of another different thing, which affordeth us a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope: for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greek Churches, dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter, and would not follow the custom of the Pope and Romish Church, though the Pope sought it by all means, who can doubt, but that this supreme power of the Pope over all Churches under Christ as his Vicar, was unknown and unheard of among them? Polycrates, was either so ignorant or forgetful that he considered not this, that the Pope of Rome was left unto the Church, in the Apostles rooms, to defend this Virgin, and preserve her chastity. Why calleth he the Church a Virgin? Because the Apostles were living, by whom her audacious adversaries were always discouraged and discomforted. But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope, or else she needs him not at all. But Polycrates, although there were none left to preserve the purity of this Virgin, bewaileth her want as you see, which surely had been unaduifedly done, if his opinion had been, that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome. The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline, and inclined to the apostasy, which the Apostle did foretell should be, and we see now fulfilled. Then those Wolves of whom the Apostle did forewarn, Act. ●0. 19. came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flock. Then those Antichrists, whereof john affirmeth some were in his time, 1. joh. ●. 18. began to undertake the work, which after was perfected and accomplished: I might here show you many evident tokens of your Church's Apostasy, out of these your own Chronicles: they are no secrets, but such as any man that will read and observe, may easily discern. And since you call us unto Histories, f DUR. Two things here are, of which you would persuade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Council allowed not that which the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did maliciously produce a forged Canon. What would you do if you could find any thing of weight in any story against us? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader, and what can any story afford us more and perspicuous, for whether you respect the a●●bition and fraud not used in former times by the Bishops of Rome, or the authority of the Council, or that famous sentence given against the Bishops of Rome, there is no man so ignorant and unexperienced, but he will confess that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no small importance. I will put you in mind of one thing related in an ancient story, consider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then answer fully concerning the whole matter. A Council was assembled in Africa, of 217. Concil. Carthag. 6. cap. 3.1.7.9. Bishops; whereof Augustine himself was one, the glory and star of Africa: I will set down the story briefly. Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates, which should persuade the Fathers of Africa, that appeals might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops. The Legates make relation hereof unto the Fathers, and withal produce a Canon of the Council of Nice, wherein the privilege was recorded: the Father's wonder at this new decree, and answer the Legates that they never saw any such Canon in any copy Greek or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copy of that Council remained with them, which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage, which was himself present at that Council, had brought into Africa; notwithstanding they determine to send to Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, such as might receive the true and natural copies, from the Bishops of those cities. The Pope's Legates would feign have stayed them from sending, but could not. Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Constantinople deliver unto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of afric, wherein they do avouch that those copies were most true and sincere. Concil. Af●●c. Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Council of Nice no such thing can be found: so they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to surcease from making any such claim ever after and not to send abroad his Collectors, lest thereby they may seem to bring the presumptuous smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ. The Pope for the time yielded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred years after Boniface the second in an Epistle unto Eulalius inveigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, which was now Precedent of the African Council, and affirmeth that he and his fellows, whereof Augustine was the chief, were all moved by the devil to withstand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatics, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Bishops, yea and Augustine himself among the rest, because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter: as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage, he giveth him great thanks because he made friendship with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome over the Church of Africa. These things I have related out of their truest records, and of this kind I could rehearse many more, so little cause have you to promise yourself much help out of History. Hence may be perceived what the purpose and endeavour of the Bishops of Rome have been these many years, viz. to make themselves Lords of all Churches, which also at length they obtained. But because you ask the question and desire answer, when Rome lost her faith so much commended, and what that, which once was; ceased to be? I may truly affirm that though in many things she had made shipwreck of faith before, yet then did it begin to be the seat of Antichrist, when Phocas the murderer granted unto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches, and the Bishop of Rome should be called Universal Bishop. I will not too curiously search into the moments of times, a mischief creepeth privily, for a time unespied of men. But the common opinion which men conceived of those times was, that Gregory the great was the last good, and the first ill Bishop of Rome. He was no better than he should be, and all that succeeded him were stark nought, every one striving to go beyond his predecessor in all lewdness: so that, now a sink of all wickedness hath violently burst into the Church, and hath possessed all the parts thereof. You force me, Campian, to open the sores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are so unreasonable, that you neither spare us nor yourselves. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many years, how often, and how grievously, doth he bewail, the most desperate estace of your Church? g DUR. Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the wicked. and in the Church the evil men were ever mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder what was in your mind, when you confess that the manners of your predecessors were such, as he describeth both here, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor, walk decked with much precious apparel. If I durst speaze it; these are rather pastors for devils then for Christ's sheep, Your Court usually receiveth good men, but maketh sew good. There the wicked are not made better, but the good far worse. A number of such places I could allege out of him, neither bewaileth l●ethe mixture of the bad, as you say, but the perishing of the good, and the ruane of the Church. A shameful contagion spreadeth over the body of the whole Church: Bernard. in Cant. Ser. 33 De conver. Pauli. the servants of Christ serve Antichrist. From the sole of the foot to the crown of the head nothing is sound. With these and the like speeches used Bernard to bewail and complain of the intolerable wickedness of your Church, which he would never have done without sufficient reason, moving thereunto. Aeneas Silvius ad Casparem Schlik. Aeneas Silvius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith utterly gone, and what manner of Church shall we judge this to have been, when she had lost both faith and charity? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice unto the Church, and that after he changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was ever his usual speech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius. What shall I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, which feared not with Satirical verses to inveigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergy? all things were then so out of order, that all sins might without controlment both be practised and openly blamed. I need not to seek far, remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine, not many years ago, at the Council of Trent spoke openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church: whose witness must needs be strong and effectual against you, though of itself it be little worth. Thus he saith, Cornel. Bicontin. in council. Crident. Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicurism. Behold the Marks of your Church, superstition, infidelity, Antichrist, Epicure, for all this you are not ashamed to affirm that no History either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cause us to manifest the corruptions of it. Our adversaries, say you, do grant that the Roman Church was once a holy Church. This we confesle, and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthy praise, which you remember; and yet those praises by you mentioned, do not belong to that Church alone, but were given also to other Churches. Rom. 1. ●. For what if the faith of the Romans were published in the whole world? this was no proper or peculiar privilege of that Church. Hath not the Apostle written as much of the Church of Thessalonica, 1. Thess. 1.8. Your faith to wards God is spread in all places? What if he made mention of the Romans without ceasing? Rom. 1.9. so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians. 1. Thess. 1.3. What though he doubted not but he should come unto the Romans in abundance of the blessing of Christ? Rom. 15.29. think you his coming into other Churches was less fruitful? Rom. 16.19. What if all Churches saluted the Romans, and their obedience was every where spoken of? know you not that all the Saints used to salute one another? or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this? But we grant you, that at this time it was holy: what would you more? Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospel there in his favourable restraint. This also we grant: what more? 1. Pet. 5.13. And then also when Peter gathered and governed the Church there, calling it Babylon. We deny not this. And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon, for I doubt not, but it is the same of which h DUR. Saint john speaketh of Rome when it yet abhorred the saith of Christ, a●d persecuted Christians. WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. J●●n described Rome as it was restored and re-edified by Antichrist, for when ●e w●●teth Apoc. 18. ●. who seethe not that this cannot be understood of ancient Rome, but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather than Devils, and the hold of the Spirit of God rather than foul spirits. john writes so much in the Revelation, the mother of whoredoms, and abominations of the earth; yet I cannot be so easily persuaded that i DUR. Yet Oecumenius, Hierome, Eusebius. Tertullian, to say nothing of others, do grant it And to make question of Peter's being at Rome, is as if you should doubt, whether ever Romulus, julius Caeser, or Pompeie was there. For if Cyprian, Eusebius, Do●o●heus, Epiphanius, Optatus, Hicrom, and many others may not be believed, what shall ever be certain in any History? WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies prove nothing that I have either doubted of or denied; for I desire authority of Scriptures, not the opinions of men; I desire every man who desireth salvation to weigh this one thing well. That whereas the whole government & Hierarchy of the Papacy hangeth on this foundation, that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome, yet they have no word in the Scriptures to show that he ever was so: and so the whole Papacy is hanged upon the conjectures of men, as upon a rotten thread; for what if many Histories say he was there, if the Scripture say no such thing, what assurance can be of it for matter of faith, the mind must needs be suspicious and doubtful; it is true that the received opinion is that he was there. But who knoweth not that, that which one delivereth at the first, may increase by fame, and be by many reserved to posterity. At the first an ancient writer mentioned S. Peter's apposing of Simon Magus and saith it was at Rome, and him have many followed since: and hence from the common rumours and suspicions of men sprung up the Pope's chairs. And who shall then give assurance of faith in this thing, when there is no place of Scripture for it, nay when many places are against it. These specially Galat. 2.7.9. Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome & for so many years, it was against both his order of life and his faith. Act. 28.22.23. Now they could not be so ignorant, if that S. Peter for so many years before had governed that Church: S. Paul abode in Rome two years and thence writ many Ep●stles, and in them spoke of many of the brethren, but never once named S. Peter; supole you he would be two years from his Church? Galat. 2.1.2. But he ought rather to have been at Rome, as a good Bishop ought to be with his flock, unless you can prove he might substitute a Vicar. Besides the Histories themselves are in such ●ariety of opinions, that you can hardly tell whom to follow: some say he came ●o Rome in the first year of Claud●us the Emperor, some in the second, some in the fou●●●, and some in the tenth year: and it may be that none of these is true, sure it is all cannot be true. Peter means Rome in this place; here Campian you are always at a nonplus, & could yet never progue that Peter was at Rome. But you take this for granted, and as already proved; which if any man once deny, then like the Mathematicians, you have done, and can go no further. But why may I not reasonably think, that Peter meaneth that Babylon, which once was the chief City of the Assyrians, in which City certainly were many jews, Galat. 2.9. unto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly. If I should set down that which I could allege in this cause, I fear I should try your patience too much. In the mean time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon, and hereafter, at your leisure, you may declare upon what occasion the name of it was altered. You may not now be angry with us, if following Peter's example, from henceforth we also call Rome Babylon. Now I hope at length you will rest and be satisfied. Nay, but you proceed still unto the ages that succeeded: Then when Clemens governed the Church: then also, when the Heathen Emperors massacred the Bishops of Rome: Even than I confess, Rome was an excellent Church of Christ. Will this content you? Nay further you say; Then also when Damasus, Siricius, Anastasius, Innocentius executed the Apostolic function. This is not to descend by degrees, but to leap; for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these. But how will you persuade us to yield you thus much; Because Caluin (as you say) frankly confesseth, I●st. lib. 4. cap. 2. s●ct. 3 & Epist. ad Sad●l. that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospel: Do not you, Campian, catch hold of that which no man will give you, nor be too confident of others liberality? Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted: therefore you must redeliver it. Caluin in that place answereth to your overworn argument of succession, and showeth that the purpose of the Fathers, when they alleged the succession of Bishops, was not to prove those to be true Churches, where Bishops succeeded one another: but this first they assumed as most certain, that from the beginning of the Church unto the ages, whereof they speak, there was no alteration in religion; and thus they opposed to the new broached errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserved in the Church. Caluin then saith not that they had k DUR. Do you acknowledge it to be the Church of Christ, which swerveth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine▪ what can be spoken more absurdly. WHIT. pag. 513. You that object absurdity to others are most absurd yourself, for w●● not the Church of the Jews even then when it abounded with many errors, the Church of God. The Corinthians and Galathians, when they had many ways declined from the doctrine of the Gospel, yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches, 1 Cor. 1.2. Gal. 1.2. which he would not have done, if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors. altered nothing in any point of faith, but that the Fathers used this argument of succession only in those cases, wherein it might appear they had innovated and altered nothing. Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ; but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospel, that Caluin never confessed, and we constantly deny. To say nothing of the rest. Thus l DUR. This error is common to you and many of your fellows: for Syricius was not the first, we ha●e a direct Canon of the Council of Carthage, which numbereth this among the Apostolic traditions, Carthag. 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemen● it in his Epistle to S. james the Lord's brother. Amongst the Grecians the custom of the Priest's wa● not to keep their wives as wives which they bade before their Priestbood, Epiphan. h●●rel. 59 And Hierome against Vi●ilantius vigeth this ancient custom of the Church. WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law. The which many Priests before him of their own acccrd embraced single life, yet none was compelled by law against his will: and as for the Council of Carthage, it was held in the time of this Syricius. And so not before him, for your Cleme●s you know he is of no worth, but a mere counterfeit. That you report of the Grecians is incredible, when as in the Council of Nice Paphuntius hindered this la, neither would the Grecians ever endure this snare: Hierome indeed produceth an old custom, but no Apostolic, nor yet perpetual custom. Syricius swerved from the doctrine of the Gospel, when he entangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of enforced continency: and this doubtless was no small digression, but a plain departing from the m DUR. What Catholic ever said that marriage was evil? S. Paul teacheth us to take beedo of the manichees and Gnostikes, and other heretics of that sort. WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my answer is easy: your Syricius and Innocent when they feared Ministers from marriage, used those reasons which either condemned marriages simply, or else they conclude nothing. For when they thus reason, Priests may not marry, because they must be the temple and the vessel of the Lord, and the Chapel of the holy Ghost, therefore they ought not to give themselves to chambering and uncleanness, because they ought to be holy: because they shall be polluted with carnal concupiscence, and to the unclean all things are unclean: because they who are in the flesh cannot please God. What I pray you is this else but to affirm that marriages are evil, impure, and wicked? Make these than no Catholics, or else your question is answered. To tie S. Paul to those ancient heretics only, is absurd, as if he delivered not a perpetual doctrine for all times: yea and he hath taxed not those only who condemn marriage, but who forbidden them, which cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth. Apostolic doctrine. 1. Tim. 4.3. Heb. 13.4. Now at length you make a stay, and pursue the histories of the Church no further: only you demand, when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had been; unto which question we have sufficiently answered. If you make doubt whether it now be the same it was, you may also if you list doubt whether the sun shine at noon. For this is as clear and without question, as that the present city of Rome, is become unlike the ancient flourishing Romans common wealth. And as he could not find Samnius in Samnius, and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily, who found nought of Rome in the midst of Rome. So if you would now in the present n DUR. What impudency is this? there was never heresy that assaulted this Church, of which it carried not the victory. As over the Donatists, jovinian, Pelagius the Britain and others. WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproaches, and stand to that I have said. The Church of Rome which once flourished is now so oppressed with Antichrist, that besides the outward face, image, countenance of a Church, & a vain pomp, there is nothing else left in it. There is no word but it is corrupted with pestiferous leaved, no Sacrament but polluted with sacrilege and corruption, no discipline but Antichristian: I pass not for your Pope's chair; your College of Cardinals, the glory of your Bishops, your Priests, Monks, Temples, riches, nothing move me; I search for a living Church, not bare walls, for a man, not a picture, for a body, not a shadow: as for your criumphes you boast of, they are no more proper to the true Church, than the triumphs of old Rome over Pyrrhus, Hannibal, Perses, Antiochus, are to be esteemed the triumphs of Rome now being. Finally as for Pelagius, he triumphed over the whole Popish kingdom. For did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature? and your Popish crew defendeth the same; who seethe not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot? Romish Church, seek for the ancient Church of Rome, you shall never find it, for she hath now lost, not the life only, but the very colour and appearance of the true Church. Seeing therefore all other things fail you, and also Histories themselves, on which you seemed much to rely, help you nothing, what remaineth but one of these two? either must you yield before the battle, or die in the battle. I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth. We have learned it to be commendable, aswell to yield unto reason, as with reason to overcome. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The eighth Reason, which is the Paradoxes of our adversaries. WHen that (most excellent men) I revolve in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I have to do, certain monstrous opinions of such as are fantasticallie given; I could not but condemn myself of slothfulness and cowardliness, if making trial thereof, I should be afraid of any man's activity and strength: let him be as eloquent as ye would wish, let him be as much exercised as you would desire, yea let him be one that hath thoroughly studied all sorts of books, yet must he needs be to seek, both for matter and words also when he shall undertake to maintain those his unpossible propositions as follow: for (if he perhaps will give his consent) we will dispute of God, of Christ, of Man, of sin, of justice, of Sacraments, and of Manners, I will try whether they dare maintain their opinions, & such sayings, as they, lingering after their own lure, have bruited abroad by their writings. God grant they will acknowledge these their own a De Deo. Cal. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. & 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct. in cap. Rom. 8. Wittem. 1524. Sic docet Luther. in asser. 36. & in resol. asser. 36. & in lib. de ser. arbit. Praesat. in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre. an. 1543 axioms: * This is most false, not any one of our men have affirmed that God is the author of sin. God is the author and cause of sin, willing, prompting, making, commanding, and working it, and their governing the wicked counsels of naughty men. * This is false, we do not so compare together. The adultery of David, and the treason of the Traitor judas, was as properly the work of God, as the calling of S. Paul was. This monstrous doctrine, whereof Philip, Melancthon was once ashamed, yet Martin Luther from whose breast Philip sucked the same, as highly extolleth, as though it had been some heavenly oracle, and therefore matcheth his said scholar in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul. I will demand also what mind Luther was of whom the English Caluinists affirm to have been a man sent from God to lighten the Word, when he razed out of the Litany used in the Church this verse, O blessed Trinity, and one God have mercy upon us: then in order I will proceed to the person of o De Christ. Inst. lib. 1. c. 13. nu. 23. & 24. Beza in Hess. Beza contra Schmidel. lib. de unit. Hypost. dua. in Christ. nat. Christ, & demand of them, what these Paradoxes mean, whereas the Catholic Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God, and God of God. * Christ is Son of the Father, but God of himself. Caluin saith that Christ is God of himself, and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father: also be it agreed (saith he) that there are in Christ two unions consisting in one substance, the one of the soul with the flesh, and the other of the Divinity with the humanity. That place of S. c Caluin. in joh. 10. v. 30 john, I and the Father are one, doth not prove that Christ is God of one substance with God the Father: yea and my soul ( * This is false, read the answer. saith d Luther count Laton. Luther) cannot brook this word (Homovotin.) Proceed ye forward, e Bucer. in Lu. 2. Calu. in ●ar. Eu. Christ from his infancy was not full of grace, but daily increased in gifts of the mind, as other men usually do, and waxed wiser through experience every day more than other, so that in his childhood he was subject to f Luth. Loss. Hem. Mela. in evang. de. 1. post. Epist. Marl. in Matt. 26. Cal. in Har. evan Brentius in Luc. par. 2. Hom. 65. & in Catech. an. 1551. & in joh. Hom. 54. ignorance, which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted, with the spot and stain of * This is false, for all ignorance riseth not from original corruption. original sin. But listen and you shall know more pernicious doctrine than this. Christ when he prayed in the garden, and plentifully sweat both water and blood, trembled through fear, and sensibly feeling of eternal damnation, uttered certain speeches without reason, and without consent of the inward spirit, yea speeches without consideration through the vehemency of his grief: the which speeches as unadvisedly spoken, he quickly corrected. Is there any more such stuff? give diligent ear: Christ, when he cried out with a loud voice, hanging on the Cross, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, was tormented with the flames of hell fire, he let overslip * This is false, neither Birutius nor any of our men ever said so. him g Caluin. in Har. evang. in eand. sent. Loss. in Matth. 26. desperate speeches, being no otherwise affectioned, then if he should have died an eternal death; if they have any worse stuff than this, let them empty their gorge. Christ they say, descended into hell, that is, Christ after he was dead, tasted of the pains of hell, nowhit h Schmidel. conci. de Pass & capua Dom. Aepinus Com. in Psal. 16. less than the damned souls do, saving that he was to be restored again; for as much as by his corporal death, he could have profited us nothing, it was therefore requisite that his i Caluin. Instit lib. 2. cap. 16. Bren. in Catechis. 1551. soul also should strive with eternal death, and in this manner to tolerate the pain, and pay the ransom of our sins. And lest peradventure any man should suspect, that this escaped Caluin by oversight, the said k Instit. lib. 2 cap. 16. nu. 12. Caluin calleth you all forlorn knaves, if any of you, have debated upon this * They who deny this doctrine to be full of comfort may worthily be accounted desperate men. comfortable doctrine, oh cursed times! oh cursed days! what miserable doctrine have you bred up? Hath that precious and princely blood, which gushed out of the torn pierced side of that most innocent Lamb Christ jesus (every little drop of which blood, for the worthiness of the sacrifice, was sufficient to have redeemed a thousand worlds) reliened mankind nothing at all, 1. Tim. 2. Apoc. 2.6. except the man Christ jesus the mediator between God and man had suffered also the * Which of us spoke after that manner? second death, the death of the soul, the want of grace, which is due only for sin, and detestable blasphemy? In comparison of this madness. Bucer. in Matt. 26. Bucer shall seem modest, though absolutely he is indeed very impudent in that he taketh this word Infernus in the Creed only to signify Sepulchrum, that is, a grave, by a very over thou art figure Epexegesis, (which is a latter recital, or rather by a foolish and fond figure, which is commonly called Tautologia,) that is an idle and superfluous telling of one●tale often. Of the English sectaries, some are accustomed to hang upon Caluin, whom they make their God, and some to take part with Bucer their great master. Some also mutter in their slieves against this article, dewising with themselves how without causing of an uproar, it may be quite cut out of the Creed, that it molest them no more. That, that also was * This is most false, this was never assayed in our Church. attempted in a certain assembly at London, I remember one Richard Chenie, a miserable old man, that was amongst them told me, who though he was evilly entreated of thieves abroad, yet did he not repair home into his father's house. And thus far, as concerning Christ his own person: now what say they of man? marry that the l De Homine Illyri. in par. lib. de ●●t. Pec. col. Inst. lib. 2. ca 3 Sacer. de cons. ve. Eccl. Aepin. de ●●b. & Pecc. Sanct. Rem. contra Cens. Col. De peccato. Image * This is false, we deny this directly. of God is clean blotted out of a man, so that there is not so much as one spark of goodness remaining in him. His whole nature as touching all the whole faculties of the soul, is so quite altered, that no man not even he that is lately christened, nor any holy virtuous man, is any thing else inwardly, but mere corruption and contagion; but whereto tendeth this? forsooth to no other purpose, but that they who will snatch at heaven, by their only faith, leading their lives in losest sort, may accuse nature, may despair to attain to virtue, and cast off the burden of the holy Commandments from their backs. To this hath m Jllyri. in vari. lib. de peccat. orig. vide Heshis. in Epist. ad Illyr. An peccatum sit substantia. Cal. in Antid. Conc. Trid. idem docuerat wickliff apud Wald. lib. 2. de Sacra. c. 154. De gratia. Illyricus the standard bearer to the Magdeburgeans annexed, that his devilish decree of original sin, which he holdeth to be the most inward substance of men's souls, because (saith he) after the fall of Adam, the very Devil himself doth shape them anew, & transform them into his own substance. This is also an usual saying amongst these abjects, that * This is most false, our men ever abhorred this doctrine. all sins are equal; but with this condition, (lest peradventure the Stoics do quicken again▪) that they be weighed in the balance of God's just judgement: as though God, which is as a most gentle judge, would rather aggravate, then ease our burden; and notwithstanding that he is most righteous, he would yet exaggerate the offence, & make it more than it is in very deed. By this balance a silly poor Tavernour that killeth a cock when there is no need, offendeth God no lee, if he give judgement in his fury, than did that vile butcherly fellow being great with child of Beza his doctrine, that secretly with arpistolet most treacherously murdered that great nobleman of France, the Duke of Guise, a Prince of rare virtue, which was the most horrible, & lamentable deed, that ever was dove in any time, within the compass of the wide world. But peradventure those men that are set so eagerly in handling of the nature of sin, De Gratia. will show themselves great Philosophers in disputing of God's grace, which will help to heal and cure this malady. n Luth. in resp. contra Lovan. Bucer. in joh. 1 Well. in nat. Christi. Brent. hom. 12. in joh. Cent. lib. 1. cap. 4. De justitia. Good offices it seemeth, that they appoint for this grace, the which they impudently cry out to be powered into our hearts, or to have sufficient ability, to withstand all sorts of sins: and place it altogeter out of our reach, in the only favour of God: which favour (they say) * This is false, the grace of God begeteth justification, and sanctification followeth justification always, and necessarily. doth neither amend the wicked, nor purify the corrupted, nor lighten those that be in darkness, nor enrich them that want good works, but only doth hide that old heap of sins still remaining and sticking within us, by Gods winking thereat, to the intent that it be not imputed as deformed and odious in his sight: with which their vain imaginations they are so well pleased, that even * This is false, we confess Christ is every way full of grace. Christ himself, for no other cause in their judgements may be said to be full of grace and truth: but because that God the Father did wonderfully favour him. What manner of thing than is justice? a certain respective relation: not composed of the three Theological virtues, Faith, Hope, and Charity, which do close the soul with their beauty, but only a cloaking of sin, the which whosoever can apprehend by his bare faith, that man is as sure of his salvation, as if he were already in present possession of the endless joys of heaven: but go to, let him dream of this, yet how can he assure himself of future perseverance until his death? which o Matth. 12 Luc. 11. gift of perseverance whosoever wanteth; he cometh to most miserable end, though for a season he embraced justice both sincerely and zealously. Nay verily, except this thy faith (saith p Inst. lib. 3. c. 2. nu. 40. Caluin) doth foreshow thee thy perseverance so infallibly, that thou canst not be deceived therein, thou oughtest to account it as a weak and feeble faith. By this point I know him to be Luther's own scholar: for a q Lib. de captain. ●ab. Christian man (saith he) though he would, cannot * Luther speaketh of the grace of Baptism which is not lost by sin. damn himself, but only by incredulity. I will make haste to the sacraments: De Sacramentis. they have lest (O blessed Christ) no Sacrament, I say none, not two, not one; for their bread r Caluin. Instit. lib. 4. cap. 15. Cent. 1. lib. 1 cap. 16. Luth. lib. de cap. Babyl. Cent 2. & 5. cap. 4. Luth. adver. Gochl. item Epist. ad Melanct. 10.2. & in Epist. ad Wald. Anabaptistas'. is stark poison. Their Baptism, though it be true Baptism, by their judgement is nothing at all: It is not water of salvation, it is not a conduit of grace, and doth not make us partakers of Christ's merits, it is but * This is false, we say not that they are only signs. only a bare sign of salvation. Therefore as concerning the nature of the thing, they esteem Christ's Baptism no more than the outward ceremony of Saint john. If thou have it, it is well, * This is false, he speaketh not so of Baptism. if thou want it, it is no hurt at all: only believe, and thou art sure to be saved before thou be baptised. What then shall we say of silly young Infants, who except they be helped by the virtue of this Sacrament, can purchase nothing by their own faith? Rather (say the Magdeburgeans) than we will attribute any virtue to the Sacraments of Baptism, let us grant that there is faith in such infant's sufficient whereby they may be saved, certain secret motions of which faith they feel in themselves; whereas without doubt, as yet they cannot discern by any sense whether they live or no. A hard case surely for poor Infants: but if this seem so hard, mark what medicines Luther will minister for it. * This Luther speaketh upon their supposition, who affirm that children want all faith. Better it were, saith he, to omit Baptism altogether, for except the infant believe himself, the washing of him in water is to no purpose at all. This tale they tell that stand wavering, what they may absolutely affirm in this point. Why then let Balthasar Pacimontanus intrude himself to strike the stroke between them, Anabaptista. as an indifferent man, who being the first founder of the Annabaptists, when he could not conceive in his mind that there was any motion of faith in young children, allowed of Luther's simple shift, and abandoning the Baptism of Infants out of all Churches decreed that none should be christened until he come to years of understanding. As for the rest of the Sacraments, though that * the Pope of Rome. beast with-manie heads, spoken of in the Apocalyps, do belch out many horrible blasphemies against them. Nevertheless because they are common at this present and have hardened our ears with the sound thereof, I will here let them pass. De moribus. There remain certain pestiferous fragments of heretical doctrine, concerning life and manners, which s Serm. de Matri. lib. de ●o. con. & ass. art. 16. Lib de vo. mona. Cha●. lib. in censor. suum Luth. Serm. de Pis. Pea. asser. art. 32 Lab. de Ser. arb. & Ser. de Moyse. lib. de cap. Babyl. Luther spewed out upon papers, for to infect those that read his books, with such poisoned stuff, as issued out of the stinking sink of his filthy breast; listen patiently, and blush for shame, and pardon me for reciting them. * A notable slander, as all the rest which follow be: read the answer. If my wife will not come, or cannot, then let my maid come to my bed. For the use of a woman is as necessary for every man, as either meat or drink or sleep is: Matrimony is better than virginity, Christ dissuaded and S. Paul dissuaded Christian people from virginity. But peradventure he will say that those are Luther's peculiar heresies. I say they are not. They are also maintained by Charke, though faintly & fearfully. Will you see any more of this stuff? why not? By how much the more wicked thou art (saith he) by so much the more art thou nigher to grace. All good works are sins; yea if God deal with us judicially, they are deadly sins, but if God deal with us mercifully, they are but small venial sins: No man thinketh of his own free-will any evil thought. The ten Commandments of almighty God, belong nothing at all to Christians. God hath no regard of our works. Those only are worthy partakers of the Lords Supper which bring with them sorrowful, afflicted, tormented, confounded and unconstant consciences. We ought to confess our sins, but it forceth not to whom. For if any man absolve thee, though it be but in * This is false: for Luther speaketh not this of every man, but of the Ministers. jest, if thou believe that thy sins are forgiven thee, thou art absolved. It is not the office of Priests, but of Lay men to say their daily appointed service. Christian people are exempted from the laws of men. But I think I have raked deep enough, and I fear me a little too deep in stirring of this stinking puddle: wherefore now I will make an end: and I would not have you think that I have dealt unjustly in reproving the Lutherans and Zwinglians jointly together: for the Zwinglians well remembering out of what school they came, wish with all their hearts to be accounted as dear friends and loving brethren one with another: so that they think they have great wrong done unto them when there is any difference put between them, except it be in one only matter. I for my own part, truly do think that I am unworthy to take upon me so much as a mean room amongst a great number of chosen Divines, which in these days have proclaimed wars against all sorts of heresies. But this one thing I know assuredly▪ that be I never so simple, I cannot by the grace of Christ he in any hazard, whiles that I shall contend against such feigned▪ odious, foolish, and brutish devices, so long as I have both heaven and earth to help me. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the eighth Reason, which is the Paradoxes of our adversaries. HIerome said that he would not have any man to be patiented, if he were suspected of heresy. And therefore, Campian, in so much the worse part do I take it, that these which you term Paradoxes, being so false, so many, and so horrible, be now by you objected against us. And certainly you that have ever exceeded all other Papists in impudence and audaciousness, have in this place in very deed surpassed yourself: for unless you had quite and clean put off both all religion of God, and reverence toward men, and now of late made shipwreck of your own conscience, and cast off utterly all humanity, you would never have admitted so much impiety into yourself, as to upbraid us with these monstrous opinions. But I perceive what you intent: for you hope that by slandering boldly, as he being most like you, was wont to say, somewhat would always clean fast. For sith you lack true imputations, whereby you might oppugn our Churches, it remained that either you should leave off writing, which had been your honestest way, or at lest devise some slanders, which you would cast like unomed darts upon us; which thing is both in itself very filthy, and also a sure argument of your desperatenes. But now if I shall so wipe away these your Paradoxes and impossibilities, that all men may perceive, they were ascribed to us by you most falsely and most impudently; I do crave not only of all men of our Universities, but also of all Christians, that have care of true religion, and of their own salvation, that they will not suffer themselves to be misled by any lies and impostures of the adversary, from that holy doctrine which they have learned. Wherefore I will set upon these your monsters, Campian, that after I have stopped your mouth, being full of blasphemy, both the glory of God, which is in hand, and our innocency, which is oppugned, may be preserved from your violence. You say, the disputation shall be, if they please, of God, of Christ, of Man, of Sin, of Righteousness, of the Sacraments, of Manners. But we are ready to dispute with you not only about these, but also about other points, which are now in difference: of the Scripture, of the Church, of the Bishop of Rome, of Transubstantiation, of free-will, of Indulgences, of Purgatory, and of the rest of your doctrines. Nevertheless either many are deceived, or else you do rather think of fight then disputing. And I hope that you shall once have freedom granted you for that disputation, which you so often desire. But now let us attend how you endeavour to make us know these positions of our men. God (say you) is the willing, Of God. suggesting, efficient, commanding, and working author and cause of sin, and such a one as therein governeth the impious counsels of the wicked. It is an horrible thing and not to be uttered, Campian, that any one should make God the author of sin: such an one were worthy to be smitten instantly by the Lord, with a thunderbolt into the deepest pit of hell. If a DUR. But if I do not show, that Caluin is the maintainer of this so horrible ablasphemy. I refuse no punishment for so great a slander: thus he writeth Instit. lib. 1. cap. 18. sect. 1. Absolom defiling his father's bed with incest committed a detestable crime: yet God pronounceth that this was his work. WHIT pag. 525. I wonder that there is any man found like to Campian, who will avow that to be said and defended by our men, which they have ever most plainly condemned, as Melanct. on Rom. 1. etc. Pet. Mart on judge 9 and Caluin on jam. 1. vers. 13. Beza against Castellio, of eternal predestination: for touching these words which you object to Caluin, what doth he affirm, but that which the Scripture hath delivered, 2. Sam 12.11.12? unless perhaps you will deny that to be God's deed, which God himself witnesseth to be his. Neither will your sophism follow hereupon, ergo God is the author of sin: for Caluin ascribeth not the sin, but the work to God. For if in that incest you can consider nothing but sin, it must be imputed to your ignorance. Caluin, or Martyr, or Philip, or Luther, or any of us do affirm it, I do not deny but we are all guilty of horrible blasphemy and impiety. If I would largely prosecute this whole cause, which you do but touch, I should make no end: therefore I will declare in few words, both what we teach, and wherein you lie. We profess, not only that God is good, but also goodness itself; yea good in himself & in his own essence: in whom there is no evil; from whom nothing but good can come: who is so good, that all his doings be very good, and that not so much as any of his thoughts can be evil. These things we speak, these things we teach, these things we believe with our hearts, and confess with our mouths. Seeing therefore God is so perfectly good, that all his things be in a certain excellent manner good, it hath been in times past inquired and most gravely disputed, whence that evil sprung, which had spread so far, & what might be the cause of this evil. This question Augustine often handled, because of the M●nichies, In 12. quest. 79. art. 1. & 2. and therein also Thomas of Aquine employed himself much and diligently. We say that this evil was brought in by the b DUR. But Caluin saith, that when the Devil moveth men to sin, he is rather the instrument of God, than th● author o● sin. Instit. lib. 2. cap. 4. Ser. 5. WHIT pag. 528. This allegation is full of slander. This is Caluins' meaning, that albeit the Devil be rather an instrument than the author of the action, yet he is the supreme and chief of the sin in the action. Devil, who although he were made good in the beginning by the Lord, yet by his free-will he made defection from the Lord and sinned; ●nd did persuade, and was the author unto man, to commit sin: from hence, whatsoever is sin either in the devils, or in men, did wholly flow, and not any the least piece of it had being from God, whom we do maintain by infinite testimonies of Scripture to be the author of no c DUR. But what is more often in the mouth of Caluin & all Caluinists, ●hen this, that God doth not only permit but will sin, that he doth move and thrust us forward to sin, nay that be doth by the efficacy of his will impose a necessity of sinning upon us? WHIT. pag. 529. God willeth sin, but not simply, and so far forth as it is sin, but as it is a chastisement, so 1. Pet. 4.19. and God doth stir up and move that sin which lieth hid in us, yet he doth not frame or put sin into us: as the Physician, is not the author of disease's, when he purgeth out the most corrupt humours. And man not endued with the holy Ghost, falleth of his own accord into a necessity of sinning, so as he sinneth, not by any fault of God, but by his own fault. sin; and so do teach it in our schools and Churches. Psal. 44. Zach. 8.17. Gen. 18.25. 1. joh. 1.5. For he hateth sin, he loveth righteousness: he which is the judge of the whole earth, it must needs be that he is every way most just: God is light, and there is no darkness in him. And these are the things which we teach the people concerning God, that all may understand he is a most severe revenger of all sins. Now then, Campian, with what face dare you, seeing you know these to be our doctrines, impute unto us such a slander not to be uttered, in so much as you affirm that we speak and think things flat contrary? But you say Caluin and Martyr have taught this this thing. Nay rather they are wholly bend upon this, that they maintain, that can by no means be. It would be long to set down their words. I do beseech the Reader, to read with an attentive and peaceable mind, these same very places, which Campian hath abused unto slander. And if they do not both deny most plainly that God is the author and cause of sin; and also if they do not prove that they do most truly deny this, which they deny, I will submit myself to any punishment. But yet there is doubtless somewhat, which these men say, and which Campian doth attribute to them: what that is, let us consider. There was a certain inveterate opinion among men, that whatsoever sin was committed by any, all that was done, God only permitting, and not willing it: now they did separate this permission utterly from all will of God, so as they affirmed that God did no way will those things which he had permitted. But now seeing the Lord is to be held to d DUR. Here you, while you, would defend that God is not the author of sin, yet do nothing else but make him the author of sin: for if he do not only permit, but also willeth that man sin, tell me which way, if the will of God be the first and effecting cause of sin, God is not the author of sin. WHIT. pag▪ 535. There is no need that I should expound to you that which you demand for we do not make the will of God to be the first and ●ffecting cause of the sin, but of the action, which as it cometh from a wicked man, is vicious, so than not the will of God, but the naughtiness of the instrument, is the cause that those things are done wickedly, which the Lord doth rightly. permit those things which are done, not only that they might be done, as if he did no whit intermeddle himself in those things, nor had nothing at all to do therein, but also doth by his special providence so govern all things, as that nothing in the whole world happeneth against tha●, that he hath willed & decreed: certainly it cannot be denied, that God doth will after a sort those things, which the wicked do, & that this will of God is so effectual, that in the wicked actions of men, God doth execute his own decree. For in sin two things are to be considered, the action itself, and the corruption of the action: which thing your Aquine might teach you, which also he learned from Augustine. The action so far forth as it is a thing and a work, is good; for God effecteth it: but so far forth as this self same action is vicious, it proceedeth not from God, but from the corrupt nature of man. Although therefore God who worketh all things in all, and against whose will nothing can be done; doth bring to pass a certain work of his in the evil actions of men; yet he doth those things that are just, nor ought he any way to be thought to be guilty of the sins of the men themselves: therefore that which a wicked man doth, that, as it is a sin, and as it hath the proper nature of sin, the Lord neither willeth nor suggesteth, nor biddeth, nor effecteth; nay he detesteth and revengeth it, and judgeth it worthy of everlasting punishment. But that which is spoken of the thing, that you apply maliciously and unskilfully, to the quality of the thing, that you may conclude, that God, because he is the author and cause of the action, is also the author and cause of whatsoever corruption is found in that action. I will not prosecute any long digression, nor overwhelm you with that multitude of Scriptures, which I could here use: for I have not taken upon me to expound any point in the Schools, but briefly to confute your filthy slander. Now answer me, Campian, do you think that that which any one doth, how wicked soever, is done whether God will or no? If you hold that any thing is done against God's will, what providence or omnipotency do you leave him? For he which permits that to be done, which he would by no means have to be done, it is certain that he is not endued with so great power, as that he can forbid that which he would not have done. Wherefore you must need● confess that all things which are done, are done by the will of God; not that God doth will, that is, e DUR. You say that God willeth evil, but that he doth not allow it: as if God could will that which he doth not allow, or as if he could not allow his own judgement and decree. WHIT. pag. 538. It is no hard thing to prove this, that God doth will many things which he doth not allow: for if is do happen to Princes, that they do not simply allow of war, as being dangerous to them and their subjects, but they would willingly shun it it they could, and yet they are compelled sometime to will it for the public peace sake: and so to a Magistrate, who spareth the lives of his people, and never liketh of murder, yet now and then doth willingly deliver some one or other malefactor unto the executioner; shall we think that the like cannot happen unto God, that he willeth some thing in some sort and for some other respect, which he doth not allow simply and of itself? Thus than God cannot but allow the action, which he hath destinated to a certain end: but he doth not allow the corruption and sin of the action, whereof not he but man is the author. allow the sins of men, but because by this means he doth exercise his judgement and execute his decree, which he both willeth and alloweth. God can use evil instruments well, and bring to pass by wicked men, those things which agree with his will and liking. Now whatsoever things God doth by evil instruments, those he neither doth nor alloweth, as they be evil things, but as they be his good and holy judgements: so as although he both willeth those things which be done, & doth move the wills of men, and doth exercise in evil instruments, though unknown to the instruments themselves, an effectual power, and doth govern the wicked counsels of impious men, that they can do nothing which he willeth not; yet both men are wicked, albeit they do those things which the Lord willeth; and the Lord is holy, howsoever he willeth those things which the wicked do. This may be made manifest by examples; but I had rather you should hear Augustine than me. When the Father (saith he) delivered the son, August. Epist. 48. ad Vincent. and the Lord his body, and judas the Lord by treachery, why is God just in this delivery, and man guilty, but because in one thing which they did, the cause was not one for which they did it? Again, In that the wicked sin, it is their own: in that in sinning they do this or that, it comes from the power of God, who divides the darkness as he seethe good. And in another place: It skilleth much (saith he) what will agreeth to man, and what to God, and to what end each one referreth his will, so as it may be allowed or disallowed. For God fulfilleth certain of his wills, being surely good, by the evil wills of evil men: as by the ill willed jews, through the good will of the father, Christ was slain, which was so great a good, that the Apostle Peter, what time he would not have had it done, is termed Satan by him who was willing to be slain. And elsewhere: God (saith he) hardened Pharaoh by just judgement, De Grat. & lib. arbit. cap. 23. and Pharaoh hardened himself by his own free will. And that you may plainly perceive there is nothing taught by us touching the will of God, but that which the Church of Christ long since hath taught, I will annex some other sentences which the same Augustine hath written in another place: Great are (saith he) the works of the Lord distinguished into all his wills, Enchirid. ad Laurent. cap. 100 so as after a wonderful and unutterable manner that is not done without his will, which also is not done against his will: because it should not be done, if he did not suffer it, neither certainly doth he suffer it unwilling, but willing. And again: God worketh in the hearts of men to incline their wills whither so ever he will, De Grat. & lib. arbit. ca 21. whether to good according to his mercy, or unto evil, according to their merits. And that certainly in his judgement sometime open, sometime secret, but always just. I can use infinite testimonies in this matter, but I think, not very needful. I will raise up out of your own school Hugo de Sancto victore, who shall most clearly approve our opinion with his own words. For thus he writeth: De Sacra. part. 2. c. 14. His will is never idle, so as that is not done, which he willeth: neither in a word can any thing be done at any time which he willeth not. And a little after: Cap. 15. The will of God is ever fulfilled, and wicked men are not therefore excused, because the will of God is performed in them and by them, for that they are not directed by their own will, to fulfil the will of God, but by his secret providence. Do you perceive at length (Campian) that no new paradox is defended in our Churches, which was not both received in times passed in the Churches of Christ, and is also defended as the truth itself? For that which you add, As the calling of Paul, so also David's adultery, and judas his treachery, were the proper work of God: from whence you drew these positions I know not. These works of God not one of our writers do so compare together, as that we should say that God wrought alike in David and judas to the committing of heinous offences, as he did in Paul for his effectual conversion. Indeed the Lord wrought both in this and in them, but not after one and the like manner: he did inspire inwardly the heart of Paul by his spirit, and endued his mind with true faith, which he lacked before: but to David and judas he did cast in no new kind of impiety or inclination of will, nor did he stir up new motions unto sinning (God forbidden that any Christian should so much as think it:) but they running of their own accord, and stirred up by and of themselves, be did so hold and bend, that they unwitting to themselves, and not imagining any such thing, did execute God's decree. For by this adultery of David the Lord did both chastise David, in that he did punish sin with sin, as he is wont, and also he made a way open for his purposes in time succeeding. Like hereunto is that of Absalon: he defiled David's Concubines: 2. Sam. 17.22. the heinousness of which offence cannot be uttered: yet this way the Lord had decreed to take punishment of David. But the treachery of judas, if you respect the covetousness and perfidiousness of the man, did so displease God, that never any thing did offend him more: and yet the Lord used both judas treachery and the Priest's cruelty for the finishing of that work of our salvation, and he would have these wretched instruments to effect that divine work. Therefore the Apostles do testify that all these did nothing else but those things which the hand and counsel of the Lord did decree to be done. Act. 4.28. And yet there is not here any monstrous thing, whereof either Philip Melanchton or any other aught to be ashamed, unless perhaps the holy doctrine of the Scripture seem monstrous to you. As for that that you demand with what mind Luther did take away this verse from the Church prayers, O holy Trinity, one God, have mercy upon us, certainly you are too suspicious. If Luther did think erroneously touching the Trinity, convince him: his books are in men's hands, and they are read by you, as it seemeth, very diligently. Allege, if you can, any one word, injurious either to the Trinity or Unity. For if out of all his writings, which are innumerable, you can draw no probable inkling of this suspicion, why do you make question about one verse taken away from the Church prayers? which whether it be taken away or no, I know not: and though it be taken away, yet how appears it that it was taken away by him? But Luther's condition is very hard, who must stand unto, both what he hath written, and what he hath not written. And these are those our paradoxes concerning God, which you could carp at in the books of all our writers, which have come forth in a manner infinitely. The matter is safe and sound: the adversary hath viewed over all of them, and yet hath found nothing. By and by you proceed to the person of Christ, Of Christ. and you demand what these words of Caluin mean; Christ i● the son of God, God of God, God of himself▪ What reprove you here Campian? what, that he said, Christ is the Son of God? or for that he termed him God of God? or else, that he affirmeth him to be God of himself? But which of these assertions is it, that is not holy, not granted, not agreeable to the Catholic faith? which if you deny, you do not convince any Paradox of ours, but you bewray your own heresy. But this is the point, unless I be deceived, wherein you have found, I know not what, knot, as it were in a rush. The Nicene Fathers do profess Christ to be God of God, to the end they may teach that the Son is of the same substance with the Father. This saying, some afterward catched at so, as that they did maintain that Christ is not God by himself and of himself, but that he received it of his Father: wherein they quite took away the Divinity of Christ. For unless he be God of himself, he cannot be God at all. For that he may be God, he must needs be God of himself. Wherefore howsoever those Fathers did say that Christ is God of God, yes Calain maintaineth that it is most firmly to be believed, that Christ hath this, to be God of himself, unless we will rob Christ of his Divinity. To be the Son, he received that indeed of the Father: for he is the Son of the Father. To be God, he hath that of f DUR. If the Son of God have not his essence from the Father, surely be is not the Son of the Father. WHIT. pag. 542. And why so? did Caluin ever deny that the Son hath his essence from the Father? he and we all teach that the Son was begotten of the Father's essence; and that the Son hath the whole essence of the Father, and that not by decision or propagation, as the wicked Prithe●●s dream, but by communication. And yet h●●e you multiply Scriptures and Fathers needlessly. This we say, Christ is God of himself, but in this sense, that, that essence which is in the Son, is not from any other essence, but of and from himself, seeing that the essence of the Father and the Son is one and the same. For essence, as Basil truly writeth against Eunomius, cannot be generated: and pag. 543. wherefore Christ, so far forth as he is God, is of himself; and so far forth as he is the Son, is of the Father: for he cannot be God, whose essence is not of and from itself, so Basil and Augustine. himself, because he is God by himself. What say you now Campian? God of God, is with Caluin, God of himself: and say you so indeed? hath not Caluin admonished you of this, that the name of God is to be taken for the Father, when as Christ is termed the Son of God? That therefore which the Nicene Fathers deliver, that Christ is God of God, that is so to be understood, that we should confess the Son to be begotten of the Father, and not that we should attribute the name of God only to the Father: for we must look to it, that we do not so determine the Son to be of the Father, as that we should deny him to be God of himself. And these things Caluin hath interpreted most diligently and most holily, nor hath he set forth any one word at all different from the faith of the Scriptures and of the Catholic Church. Remember that sentence of Augustine: Christ in respect of himself is termed God, Hom. de Temp. 38. but in respect of the Father he is termed the Son: wherein you may acknowledge the opinion of the ancient Church. Now you set upon Beza: for like to the fashion of mad dogs, you stand not in one place, but fly hither and thither, and upon whomsoever you light, you bite him shrewdly with your venomous teeth. Beza saith (as you say) he is not begotten of the essence of the Father. Why are you angry with Beza, if he say the same things, which are wont to be said & maintained by your own selves? For you cannot be ignorant, what your Lombard teacheth touching the oslence of God, which both he, and the school men that have followed him do affirm, neither to get, nor to be begotten. For that essence is not begotten by essence, but person by person. If Beza would imitate these, in saying that Christ was begotten not of the essence but of the person of the Father, why do you reprove him? and yet we may not imagine that the essence is separated from the person, as if the essence of the Son were another from the essence of the Father: (for there is but one simple essence of the Deity) but for as much as person is distinguished from essence; albeit not in the thing, yet by rolation; and sith though Ancient were wont to speak after this manner, that they said Christ was begotten of the person of the Father, rather than of his essence: it is no marvel that the same form of speech did like Beza best, whose judgement it was ever, that we ought to set down determinations touching the highest mysteries very warily and with great consideration. Now that the essence is not begotten, the whole ancient Church held, as Basil writeth expressly: C●ntr. Eu●●m. lib. 1. God is not begotten either of himself 〈◊〉 of any other. Albeit I do not very well know, whether these be Beza● words which you recite: surely I remember not that I have ever read them in Beza, nor can I find them in this place which you quote. But those that follow, are very malicious. Beza said once, that there be two personal unions in Christ, as you say, the one of the soul with the body, the other of the Godhead with the manhood. Which speech of his james Andreas reproved: and indeed not without cause; albeit this doth not follow out of that speech, that there are two persons in Christ, though there be two personal unions: but that, because it was written ambiguously, Beza professeth that he would willingly mend it. And what can you desire more? if he have erred, yet he persisted not in his error, but hath amended his fault: with what face therefore can you upbraid him with that, which fell from him but once ere he was aware, seeing he corrected it after? And touching the person of Christ, Beza every where teacheth those things, than which nothing can be more true and sincere: nor is there any of us that is wont to affirm or defend that which you object concerning those two personal unions. For we confess but one person, constituted of the two natures, as also we acknowledge but one personal union: for although Christ did assume both body and an human soul; yet these parts are not so personally joined together in Christ, as that they do make any person separate from his Godhead, lest we should imagine that Christ consisteth of two persons. Now again you make recourse to Caluin, whom I thought you had quite given over before. Caluin denieth▪ that the place of john, I and my Father are one, doth show that Christ is God of the same substance with the Father. What then Campian? was it so heinous an offence, to dissent from the ancient Fathers in the exposition of one place? Did he ever deny that Christ is of the same substance with the Father? you cannot maintain it. For he always taught it most constantly, and confuted the Arrians by other innumerable texts of holy Scripture. For what? do you think that he cannot be of the same substance with the Father, unless this place teach it? he that heedfully readeth over that dispute of Christ with the jews, which john in that chapter setteth down, joh. 10. shall easily perceive that rather g DUR. What is this that you say? john signified the union of power & will, and not of essence: are you so rude, as that you are ignorant that in God, power, and essence are the same? WHIT. pag. 546. I am not so rude, but that I well understand, that the power of God is the essence of God: but doth it follow, if Christ being endowed and environed with the power of God could not be overcome, but that God also should be overcome, that the essential power of God and Christ is the same? an unity of will and power, then of essence, is signified. Christ affirmeth that no man can take his sheep out of his hands: & that he may persuade it plainly, he adjoineth, I and my Father are one. I do not see how you can thereout conclude an unity of substance, unless you still understand that same word, One, of the substance. What is it then that Christ saith, not of himself only, and his Father, but of all the faithful, Job. 17.21. 1. joh. 5.8. that they all may be one, as thou O Father art in me, and I in thee? That place in the Epistle of john, These three are one, the Ordinary Gloss doth thus expound, that is, witnessing of the same thing. Erasmus in annot. in 1. job. c. 5. But Erasmus doth much more vehemently find fault with the old Fathers, because they abused these words, I and the Father are one, against the Arrians. Not, I think, for that he did any whit favour the Arriant, but because he thought it was done by the Fathers with no great reason. But you say, that, that word, Homoousion, was odious to Luther. For he saith, my soul hateth this word, Homoousion. Luther never said that: only this he said, if he had hated that word, Homoousion, yet he should be no heretic as long as he held the thing itself. These are Luther's words: But if my soul did hate that word, Homoousion, and would not use it, I should not be an heretic: for who should compel me to use it, so as I hold the thing, which was determined in a Council by the Scriptures? h DUR. What more foolish then to hate a name uncopable of hatred? WHIT. pag. 547. Then is he no heretic for hating the name, when he loveth the thing: and out of these words to feign and cast such a position upon Luther as this; My soul hateth that word, Homoousion; it is a devise most worthily deserving perpetual hatred. But howsoever he did hate the name, yet he did love the thing itself as his own soul. And with this same name, it is certain that many and those very excellent men were in times past offended, in so much as they have wished it had never been heard of. For this name being once brought in, the Churches were at such conflicts between themselves through hatreds and contentions, that the holy Fathers themselves did not a little repent them of that name: nor if a man would have perhaps some name to be taken away, which hath given occasion of many dissensions, is he therefore to be thought to disallow the thing declared by that name. Hieron. in Epist. ad Damas'. Hierome could not be persuaded to receive the three Hypostases, because he had that new name, Hypostasis, in suspicion: for he was afraid lest there lay some venom under that name: yet he did acknowledge and preach three persons. And now both those terms are received, nor ought any one to be offended with it. Go ye forward, say you: go you also forward, Campian, seeing you will needs do so, but it had been better for you rather to give over, than to go on of this fashion. It is better to retire than to run ill. You reproach us now for this, that we say, Christ was not perfect in Grace from his infancy, but that he grew in the gifts of his mind as other men do, and was made wiser every day by experience. I do easily endure you to object many paradoxes against us, seeing you tax the very history of the Gospel with the same fault: for who may hope that he can escape your slander, who stick not most audaciously to fly upon the writings of the Gospel: for what do we teach else herein, but that which the Evangelist hath expressed in his writings once or twice? for thus we read in Luke. The Child increased, Luk. 2.40. and was strengthened in the spirit, and he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was in him. And again, Vers. 52. jesus grew i DUR. That is, saith jeremy, and the ancient Fathers, Christ grew in wisdom, because together with his age that his wisdom did every day more shine forth and show itself to men. jeremy thus, a woman shall compass a man; and Augustine, justine, Clement, and Hilary say, to ascribe to Christ ignorance, is an impious thing, and not to be believed. WHIT. pag. 550. Thus you ●rgue, jeremy chap. 31. wrote: A woman shall compass a man: therefore Christ was a man in his mother's womb, full of knowledge and wisdom. Out of all doubt with these arguments you will win the field: but yet take this with you; if a woman compassed a man, in such sort as you affirm, than it will follow that Christ was a man, before he was borne; and Marie did bear him, not an infant, but a man; and old simeon took in his arms a man, and not a child. These are expositions worthy your patronage. As for the Fathers that you cite, they speak only of Christ's Divine nature. DUR. Adam in his creation was endued with excellent wisdom and knowledge: what madness is it then to attribute to Christ the infirmity of ignorance? WHIT. I answer, you dispute very admirably. Adam was created with excellent knowledge, therefore Christ was ignorant of nothing: first, Adam know not all things, but you say Christ was never ignorant of any thing. Again from this ground you may conclude, that Christ is not dead. For if Adam in the beginning was so created, that he could not die, what madness is it, (to use your own words) to attribute the infirmity of mortality to Christ? Tell me I pray you, which is more befitting to Christ, mortality or infirmity? But when the Scripture is manifest, that Christ did not take our nature whole and sound, as it was then in Adam, but infirm and weak, yet without sin; it is no marvel if he would be borne such as we are, not such as Adam was created. in wisdom, and in stature, and in favour both with God and men. What else can be understood out of these words, but that jesus did increase both in stature and wisdom, & the more he grew in age, so much the greater progresses had he in the gifts of the holy Ghost: for so our Evangelist had written a little before of john: The Child grew and was strengthened in the spirit. Luk. 1.82. Do you think that john was presently as soon as he was borne endued with perfect wisdom and grace of the spirit, so as he had no addition ever made him? But Luke saith that Christ was full of wisdom. I do not deny it: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. albeit Luke do not say filled, as though he were full of wisdom, but filling, whereby some growth and addition is signified. But to grant that he was full, will you therefore have it that nothing was added afterward? what then do you determine of john, of whom the Angel foretold that he should be full of the holy Ghost from his mother's womb? Wherefore if Christ had this, that at what time he first was made man, absolute & perfect wisdom, and other gifts of the spirit were heaped upon him, certainly he had it not alone; nor am I moved with the authority of the schoolmen, who lest they might seem to think less honourably of Christ, do attribute to him presently all perfections. And Damascens argument taken from the personal union doth not conclude it, Damasc. lib. 3. de Orthodox. side. unless we will think that the Deity did infuse all the quality of itself into the humanity of Christ. That which the Evangelist writeth of this progress of wisdom, pertaineth only to the human nature of Christ? And seeing that Christ would assume the whole nature of man, Heb. 4.15. saving in sin, and lay off that person of God, and empty himself, and take the form of a servant, Phil. 2. will it be unbeseeming the person of Christ, that we say he was made both wiser and fuller of grace by little and little? He was indeed most full of grace, ●nd whatsoever grace any body hath, all that he drew out of this ever remaining fountain of most abundant grace: joh. 1.16. but yet this hindereth not, but that Christ, as the Evangelist writeth, might grow in grace: which thing also Ambrose confesseth. For so he saith: Ambros. in Luc. lib. 2. cap. 2. k DUR. But he saith, lib. 5. de fide cap. 8. I say that the Son was ignorant of nothing, but he took upon him our affection, that he might say, he was ignorant by our ignorance. WHIT pag. 553. If Christ as a child was ignorant of nothing, because of the personal union with the Deity, yet it is a very childish argument, to reason from the person to the human nature; that because the man Christ is ignorant of nothing, therefore the humani●y of Christ is not ignorant of any thing. If Ambrose sometime upon occasion diffe● from himself, let him look to it. According to the flesh certainly he was filled with wisdom and grace. Nor do some of your men, Campian, differ from this judgement, lest you should perhaps imagine it to be so horrible, as that it cannot fall upon a Catholic: for I ansenii●● Bishop of Gandava, Comment. in concord. cap. 12. Erasm. annot. in Luc. cap. 2. who was present at the Conventicle of Trent, professeth that he doth willingly incline to this judgement: and Erasmus (albeit I name him not among writers on your side) doth give his note that it is the truer opinion. But, say you, they affirm also, that Christ was ignorant of some things. And why may they not affirm it? This (say you) is as much, as if they affirmed that he was defiled with original sin. Now at length you begin to argue very wittily, that our University men may understand your wonderful subtlety in disputing. Would you deal on this manner with us, Campian, if that dispute, which you so often wish, might be permitted you? For what could be spoken more absurdly? Christ was ignorant of something: therefore Christ was defiled with original sin. As if he that is ignorant of something, which may be known, or he which is not endued with the perfect knowledge of all things, it must needs be that he is defiled with sin. Thus than I will return you a like argument: l DUR. Though they were ignorant of many things, yet they had not that ignorance, which cometh fr● original corruption, which if you say Christ had, you must affirm that he was defiled with original sin. WHIT. pag. 555. All ignorance cometh not from original sin, as appeareth by the ignorance of Adam and the Angels; therefore Christ might be ignorant without sin. And though we affirm all ignorance is now the punishment of sin: yet will it not follow that no ignorance was in Christ, nay rather that there was; for he was to take upon him the punishment of all our sins. Therefore he underwent not only this punishment, but also death, being the punishment of sin, Rom. 6. 2●. yet for all this was he not defiled with original sin. DUR. The Fathers say he knew not the day of judgement, because he hath not revealed it, and would that others should be ignorant of it. WHIT. pag. 556. This interpretation is easily refelled. For from this will follow that the Father also was ignorant of it, seeing the Father did no more tell it and manifest it to others, than the Son did. The Angels are now ignorant of many things (for they know not that day and hour) and Adam, Mar. 14.36 before he sinned, was ignorant of many things: (for he did not understand that Satan lay in wait for him) therefore both the Angels are now defiled with sin, and Adam in his greatest innocency was a sinner. You shall never prick us with these goads so, as that we may fear any deadly wound. If you know not that there is an ignorance void of all fault, learn it of Thomas, who will teach you, that negative ignorance, which he terms nescience, 12. q. 76. art. 2. is not sin, but the privative. If you can conclude that consequent out of our judgement, that Christ was ignorant of somewhat, which he then ought to have known, when he was ignorant of it, than you put us down from this our standing. For it is not a fault not to know those things, which yet may be known, unless it concern us to have them known. For who will blame a Porter, for that he is ignorant of the Mathematics? But concerning Christ, I answer now that unto you, which toucheth this cause nearer. Although he were most pure from all spot of sin, so as nothing could be more uncorrupt; yet he took upon himself the punishment due to sin, that he might deliver us from it. Therefore also he would die, albeit death issued from sin. He than that suffered death for us, which sin brought in; can any thing, which is ours, be unbeseeming him, so as it be not infected with sin? And you can never prove, that ignorance in Christ was any whit more faulty, than death. Christ as he was a true man, albeit a pure man, so he did never think, imagine or understand all things at once, and he did sleep sometimes. Do you think that Christ while he was sleeping, did comprehend all things in his memory? which though you should affirm, yet I see no reason to believe you. That which Christ spoke of that day and hour, (no man knoweth it, Marc. 13.32. nor the Son himself) Cyrill writeth that Christ spoke it of himself, and that he knew not the day of judgement, Cyril. Thesaur. lib. 9 cap. 4. as he was man, because it is proper to the human nature to be ignorant of things to come. But now, say you, we shall take knowledge of worse things, and here you recite many things concerning Christ's swea●e, horror, and sudden outcry. I acknowledge that which you allege, but I see no paradox therein. I am not ignorant what is wont to be given out by you in corners, that Christ is reproached, when we say he was tormented with so great griefs of mind. But it is so far off, Campian, that I do either deny or dissemble those things which you now object, that I do teach and avow them openly and freely. And though the whole nation of jesuits should set upon me, yet I will never be ashamed to celebrate Christ's mercy, which I see to be violated by them with unspeakable injuries. For what think you was it that Christ felt, which brought so great sadness and vexation to him, that it wrung from him a bloody sweat? was it only death, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which takes away life and sense? Do you think that Christ could be broken so with the fear of that death that he should conceive so much grief in his mind, to make him sweat water and blood, for the desire he had to escape tasting of that cup which he came to drink of? Did Christ so much abhor this death, which the Martyrs have gone unto, joyful and cheerful? That were indeed to cast a greater reproach upon Christ, while ye would avoid the lesser. Wherefore that which raised so great horrors in Christ, was the most bitter wrath of God against mankind, which Christ must needs have suffered for a time. For the whole weight of our sins was imposed upon Christ, which brought with it a most heavy remembrance of God's wrath. Seeing therefore Christ our Mediator being laden with our sins, did suffer the greatness of God's displeasure, and did alone endure the punishment of our sins, certainly he did quake, as man, and did express those incredible sorrows of his mind many ways. Hence came that speech upon the Cross, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? which he uttered not feignedly, but from his heart; not despairingly, as you wickedly writ, but upon the consideration of God's wrath, which then he was to be subject unto. m DUR. Christ truly was the Son of God, who knew nothing in himself worthy of wrath, and so could not fear the pains of hell. WHIT. pag. 558. You dispute wittily: as if he were not the Son of Man also, and sustained the person of sinful men. Neither did he so fear hell, as you imagine: but when the punishment of us all was upon him alone, he must needs as a man be greatly affected and moved with it. For God was exceedingly incensed against us for our sins: Christ interposed himself; and he alone underwent the greatness of that wrath powered upon him, he therefore that saith, Christ felt nothing, diminisheth the greatness of sin, the justice of God, and the merit of Christ. I hat he was not swallowed up of those torments, it must be imputed to the power of his divine nature. DUR. But how could he think himself forsaken of God. who offered himself wholly to God? WHIT. pag. 559. If be did nor feel this defection, why did he say vainly and rashly that he was forsaken? he o●●ed himself by his eternal spirit, that is, his Divinity, Hebr. 9.14. Therefore this free-will offering did not hinder, but that he might feel in his mind those sorrows which men should have suffered. This is that Hell, of which Christ while he was alive, and not as you object against Caluin, after he was dead, did taste. And certainly this vexation, which Christ endured at that time, did equal after a sort the very pains of hell. But these things are reproved by you, because they be not understood. For the Papists with their dull hearts cannot conceive, what Christ performed for us by his death, and what pains he endured for the satisfying of his Father. Therefore they think wrong is done to Christ, when we say he suffered those things which he both would and ought to have suffered for us. For it was necessary not only that Christ should die in n DUR. Christ being God and man satisfied the divine justice, not by the greatness and multitude of his punishment, but by the weight of his actions, every one of which is sufficient to be a full price of man's redemption. Neither was it necessary that Christ should undergo the same punishment; which man should have suffered, as if any man would free another from prison, who is cast into it for debt; it is not necessary that be go into prison for him. Besides, who will say that the body of man aid sin? it is man that sinneth, not the body. WHIT. pag. 562. See I pray you what followeth upon your defence, that it was needless that Christ should die at all: for if any action of him being God and man, would have satisfied God's justice, and wrought man's redemption, in vain did he shed his blood and suffer death But if this be contrary to the decree & justice of God, and not every punishment but extreme sufferings both of body and soul was to be undergone, as Christ suffered in his body the most b●●ter ●eath, so did he in his soul exquisite and extreme sorrows. And out of your similitude it will follow ●s well, that he need not to have descended from heaven to have been made man, or to have suffered any sorrows: and yet who knoweth not, that not only the debtors themselves, but their su●●ies must be cast into prison, till the creditor be salified? And seeing that in such a surety as this, not the bare payment of money, but a real suffering of grievous pains was necessary, why should we doubt but Christ hath most truly accomplished the part of a surety? Lastly if the body do not sin, why should it suffer the punishment of sin? for is it equal, that the body, which in your judgement doth not sin, should be grievously and eternally punished for sin? And if it be as you say, that the man doth sin, then must the body have a finger in it; for the soul of itself is not a man. And if Christ took man's sin upon him, it was certainly the sin of the whole man, because he hath redeemed the whole. body, but also in his soul wrestle with death, because not only man's body, but also his soul had offended God, and deserved everlasting death. And they that speak against this doctrine, being very full of divine comfort, if Caluin do prosecute somewhat eagerly, no good man ought justly to be displeased with him for this cause. But that you cannot abide: and therefore you cry out, Oh wicked days! oh monstrous times! It may be you have seen a monster at Rome, or rather many monsters, which trouble you now with furious thoughts, and urge you to make an outcry. But we University men are not wont much to be moved with the clamours of mad men. For he overcomes in the Schools, not who can cry out most shrilly, but who can dispute most sitly unto the truth. But I pray you, Campian, spare your voice a while, and gather your wits together, and then I trust you will be somewhat milder anon, when you have rested you a little, for I do not hear that this is the continual dint of your mind, and I do not doubt but you may be pacified with words. You say that Christ hath contumelious injury offered him by us. Wherefore? because he is by this means too much abased, and much is detracted from his Majesty. Concerning that Nazianzen answers you: Is Christ therefore spoiled of his honour, Nazianz. because he is become humble for thy sake? Now how great bitterness of grief Christ felt, learn of Rabanus, Rabanus, in Catena Thoma. if happily you regard him. Thus doth he expound those words of Christ, Why hast thou forsaken me: Our Saviour (saith he) spoke this, carrying about him our affections, who being in danger think ourselves to be forsaken. For his human nature was forsaken because of sin: but because the Son of God was made our Advocate, he bewails their misery whose fault he took upon him. And Hierome though he did differ from this opinion because of the Arrians, Hieronym. yet the very power of truth did wring from him some confession. Concerning Christ's prayer, wherein he entreated, that that cup might be taken away, thus he writeth: Nevertheless returning to himself, that which he had refused somewhat fearfully in his nature, as man, he ratifieth in his nature as he was God and the Son: Yet not as I will, but as thou wilt, saith he, let not this be done which I speak in my human affection, but that for which I came down to the earth by thy will. Ambrose. And Ambrose useth these words to Gratian: As he took my will, so he took my sorrow. Finally, Melch. Canus. lib. 12. cap. 13. I will annex the judgement of Melchior Canus, to whom you own much on good cause, that you may know the opinion of a flat Catholic touching this matter. Surely (saith he) it was convenient that the Son of God, being to exhibit himself a sacrifice for sin, should take upon him not only the sorrows of the body, and of the sensitive faculty of the soul, but also the o DUR. But it followeth not that so he did despair or feel the pains of hell. WHIT. pag. 564. There was no danger, lest Christ might perchance despair, nor is it necessary, that whosoever sustaineth the pains of hell for a while, the same should be overwhelmed with perpetual despair: many of the godly are sometime afflicted with a very deep sense of God's anger, which they yet overcome through God's spirit, much more than could Christ overcome all the pains of hell. torments of the spirit, and the grief of the will, to the end that that most acceptable sacrifice to God for all our sins, might be by all means broken and bruised. And a little after: He being forsaken of God, and destitute utterly of all comfort, did not rejoice. You say that Bucer in comparison of this madness was modest, although he were very impudent, who takes Hell in the Creed for the grave. I let pass your reproach, which you lack not in any place, nor am I disposed to extend any longer answer about this Hell. The matter is in some difference among learned men, who albeit they agree not so well among themselves about the thing, yet they agree herein excellent well, in that they affirm that the Papists do very wickedly understand it of Christ's descent into Hell. For as for Hell, whether it signify the burial of Christ, as Bucer thought, or that sorrow of mind, wherewith Christ was affected a little before his death, as Caluin would have it; yet we retain the Article, and we teach that Christ did descend into Hell. If that cannot be otherwise understood than thus, that Christ did descend into, I know not what, Limbus Patrum, wherein you suppose the Fathers to have been, and that he did out of that place bring with him an infinite multitude of holy men, I will confess that Bucer did err, and that Caluin made a foul slip. But those your dreams concerning Hell, are worthy to be buried in Hell itself. Now as for that you say, that it was in deliberation in a certain conventicle at London, how that article might be taken out of the Creed, this certainly is the first time that ever I heard of it, neither do I give any credit either to yourself, or to your wretched Cheiny, who told you this tale. Although if the ancient Creeds of the Roman and East Church did lack that Article, as he affirmeth, whosoever he is, that in Cyprians works expounded the Creed with his Commentaries, perhaps their fault was p DUR. Is it a small fault to cross out of the Apostles Creed Christ his descension into hell? It is solid in the Creed of Athanasius, where there is mention of burial, and in the Nicene Creed, when his burial is mentioned, this descension is not expressed. And who seethe not that it was necessary that his soul must descend into the common place of other souls? WHIT. pag. 568. If it be a heinous fact to put out this article, than the Church of Rome (which you say cannot err) is guilty of this, as Ruffinus writeth in exposit. Symb. And it is no strange thing, when in very few ancient Creeds it is to be found. I could produce fifty Creeds, which have it not; in certain it is found, but then saith Ruffinus it must be understood by the precedent article, for it is the same with that, which saith he was buried. And this was Bucers' opinion, which the two Creeds of Athanasius and Nice do confirm: for if they be so diversly set down, that in some of them is mention of his burial only, in others only of his descension; it is manifest, that there is one and the same sense in them, and that to be buried is as much as to descend into hell, and this as much as that. Finally it is true his soul went into the common receptacle of souls, but how prove you that that place is in hell? for if his soul went into Paradise, it could not go into hell, unless Paradise be there. less, which would imitate the Church of Rome, which you hold cannot err. Of man.. Now you make your question concerning man: and you bring us in speaking on this fashion. The image of God is utterly blotted out in man, no spark of good being left: For so, say you, have Illyricus and Caluin taught. I know well the judgement of Illyricus, which I do not think aught to be laid to our charge. For you are not ignorant, Campian, that his opinion touching the image of God, and of the nature of original sin, hath been reproved and confuted by our men: he went somewhat farther than he should; I believe he did it, that he might remove himself farthest off from you, whom he thoroughly hated. But I would he had amended some things: then certainly had he been a very excellent man. As for Caluin you do him open wrong, whom you join with Illyricus in the fellowship of this judgement: for he writeth directly and flatly contrary to that, Inslit. lib. 1. cap. 15. sect. 4. that you bring him in speaking; q DUR. But Caluin saith, that the Saints have nothing within but contagion and corruption. For if there be in the Saints no true justice, but all their works are sins, what can be in them besides corruption, and contagion. WHIT. pag. 572. Do you neither fear God, nor reverence man? Show v● any such words of Caluin, if you can: if you cannot, why do you repeat that which Campian most falsely objected at the first? There are in the Saints and the regenerate many excellent virtues and graces of the holy Ghost, as faith, love, hope, patience, etc. who ever said that these were nothing but corruption and contagion? fie, away with you and your slander. As for your argument it is marvelous slender, for though the Saints have no justice of their own, which doth perfectly satisfy the Law of God, yet they are endued with many excellent virtues and ornaments of the holy Ghost. If I should reason, because there is no sound learning in you at all, therefore there is nothing but mere ignorance in you, I should conclude the one as truly, as you the other. As for your last slander, that all the works of the Saints are sins; we say no that they are sins, but that by reason of the inherent corruption they are tainted with some spot of sin, and have not that perfection which the law and justice of God requireth. Will you say, that he who is lightly touched with some disease, is nothing else, but the disease? you should certainly stand in need of Physicians and much Physic, if you should thus speak. That the image of God was not quite blotted out in man. But this is your fashion, that when you cannot reprove those things which we do say, than you feign those things to be said by us, which may easily be reproved. We teach, that man was created and form so in the beginning, that he was answerable to the image of God in all things. Now that image was a most perfect entireness of all parts, heaped up with all good graces and virtues, which could be incident to the pure nature of man. Whatsoever he did imagine, desire, will, think, or understand, was holy and right, and agreeable to God's will, yea even to the rule of that law, Thou shalt love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy strength, and thy neighbour as thyself. But after that Adam had slid back from God, we say that this image was pitifully corrupted and deformed, that neither the understanding did retain that ancient light, nor the will did love God, nay the whole will was turned from him, neither did there remain entire any faculty either of body or soul. Although therefore we deny not that some relics of that most noble image do remain still, yet we hold that all that which may reconcile and make us acceptable unto God, and be sufficient for us to salvation, is blotted out and extinguished. All reason, and judgement, and understanding, which was some little piece of that image, is not utterly lost, there is not no will at all left in us; but yet the fall of Adam did inflict such a blow upon all these faculties which yet remain in us, that neither can our will of itself will any thing, which God may like of, nor our mind think, understand, or judge right and true things without error. Therefore john saith that the light shineth in the darkness, Joh. 1.5. but yet the darkness comprehendeth it not. But now those greater things, faith, righteousness, holiness, and perfect virtue, which may lead us unto everlasting felicity, these did not only receive a wound to become weaker, but they did quite perish, and became none, until that they be renewed in us by the holy Ghost and the grace of regeneration. Wherefore thus doth the Lord speak touching man whom he had fashioned after his own image, whom also he knew thoroughly: Gen. 6.5. The wickedness of man was great in the earth, and all the imagination of the thoughes of his heart was only evil continually. And that we might understand that these things were pronounced of mankind as it is in itself, and not only of those wicked men, who lived before the flood, the Lord doth again repeat these things after the flood, what time Noah only with his family were left alive upon the earth: Gen. 8.21. Hereafter (saith he) I will not curse the earth any more for man's sake, for the frame of man's heart is evil from his youth. Can you, Campian, judge better and righter of the image of man, than the Lord himself could? If all the thoughts of man's heart be both always and only evil, and the very frame and beginning & fountain as it were of all his thoughts most corrupt, what now is left of that image which was sometime so excellent, which may help any whit to attain happiness? Hitherto belongeth that which Christ saith, That which is borne of the flesh, joh. 3.6. is flesh: and that which is borne of the spirit, is spirit. If the whole man be flesh, certainly the whole is unclean. And Paul saith, we were the children of wrath. Eph. 2. 3● But the Lord doth not hate his own image, nay wheresoever he beholds it, he loveth it entirely. And Paul pronounceth that the whole man every whit is the child of wrath: wherefore that image which may make us acceptable to God, can never now be found in us. For he saith, not only that we are so hurt and wounded, as that yet some hope of life remaineth, but that we wholly, such as we are in ourselves, are obnoxious and subject to everlasting death, as if nature had framed us thereunto. What should I heap up more testimonies of the Scriptures, which are so plentiful through the whole Scripture, that nothing is oftener repeated than the loss of this image? wherefore we judge so of man after sin, before restitution, even as Augustine writeth, whom the very Schoolmen themselves durst not reprove. Natural gifts were corrupted in man by sin, and the supernatural extinguished. But of man regenerate we do not say those things, which you affirm, that nothing is found in him but mere corruption and contagion. For he is endued with the spirit of Christ, he possesseth Christ dwelling in him, he is endued with faith, hope, and charity. But he who hath nothing in him but corruption, it is certain that he is no whit regenerate. For the new man which is created according to God, Eph. 4.14 must be reform after righteousness and true holiness. Indeed that which the regenerate man hath of his own and proper to himself, is vicious. For so the Apostle saw another law in his members rebelling against the law of his mind: Rom. 7.23. but those things which he received from God, are contrary to this corruption and contagion; which if any do deny to be good and holy, he may well be held blasphemous against the holy Ghost. As for that you both feign that we speak these things, and also express for what cause we speak them, you bewray your wonderful wisdom, which for those things that are not at all, can set down a reason wherefore they be. But we do willingly preach faith, and do easily permit it to be contemned of you. For you that defend nature against grace, and do trust rather to your own power than to Christ's mercy, and do make void the promises by precepts, cannot have an honourable opinion of faith. You never keep your standing, Of sin.. Campian, and you begin the battle like a runaway. For you have a wandering and unstable wit, as it seemeth. You oppose Illyricus to us again in the same cause, whose testimony ought not to be of force against us. For herein I profess myself no less an adversary to him than yourself, I had almost said, than to yourself. For what an unjust and unreasonable thing is it, that you should tax that opinion as defended by us, which yourself knoweth to be condemned by our Churches? Object our own opinion to us, Campian, if you can object any: we are not such, as that we should think whatsoever Illyricus could, as being a man, err in, did any whit concerno us. But either Illyricus must needs be drawn into this taxation, or else this place was quite to be left void by you. For beside Illyricus, I think you have no man that thinks so. If you desire to know our opinion of this matter, I confess indeed that that defence of Illyricus did seem ever very absurd to me. For it both smells of the folly of the manichees, and it maketh two souls in a regenerate man: and which is a greater matter, it destroys the soul. That was always the judgement of the Catholic Church, which I profess to be ours, that the substance of the soul was not quite slain by sin, but only charged and infected with vicious qualities: and that sin is no inward substance of the soul, but an r DUR. The Catholic Church never believed that sin was an accident or quality, but only a privation, for if it were an accident, God should be the cause and author of it. WHIT. pag. 573. But this privation is it not an accidental thing? why then make you a scruple in words, when you understand the sense? An accident is commonly called that which is in some substance, but is no part of it, which may either be absent or present without the corruption of the subject and such a thing every man knoweth sin is. And though I confess that the nature of sin consisteth in a privation; yet it is not a bare privation, as you may learn ou● of your Thomas. For. 1.2. quaest. 82. art. 1. he saith, sin is not a mere privation, but a corrupt habit, like unto a disease, whereby not only health is taken away, but bad humours are brought upon the body. And the School men when they make privation of original justice to be the form of original sin, and the matter to be concupiscence or a corrupt inclination of the faculties of the soul, what do they teach, but that in sin there is some positive thing, as Thomas useth to call it? But why do I endeavour to refel you, for whom Physic is fit than a refuration? As for your reason it hath no force; for God is not to be accounted the author of all accidencies, but indirectly and by accident. Basil saith, That the root and cause of sin is in ourselves, even our free-will. accident. s DUR. Basil saith not, that sin is an accident or a quality, but an affection contrary to virtue. WHIT. pag. 575. Then must it be somewhat, for nothing cannot be contrary to virtue. Basill writeth truly, in that he denieth that sin is any living substance, or endued with a soul, Basil. i●ub●●p. hons. 2. August. de nuptijs. lib. 1. cap. 25. but a quality contrary to the virtue of the soul. Augustine: t DUR. Augustine will accuse you for slandering him, because he spoke not of sin, but of concupiscence, which he accounted to be no sin. WHIT. pag. 576. Doth Augustine account concupiscence no sin? why then calleth he it an affection of an evil quality? why doth he compare it to a disease? why doth he demand the question, how concupiscence should remain in the regenerate, whose sins are all remitted, if it were not a sin? his answer proveth it yet more fully. For he saith, concupiscence is remitted in Baptism, not that it should be no sin at all as you would have it, but that it should not be imputed for a sin. If it were no sin, how could it be imputed for a sin? Finally August. count ●ulian. lib. 5 cap. 3. affirmeth that it is a sin, and a punishment of sin, and a cause of sin, and that in the regenerate. It is manifest in the place, that he speaketh of that concupiscence against which the spirit lusteth, and which in without the consent of the will. It at any time he deny it to be a sin, it i● not simply, but in opposition to actual sin; for how should that be nothing, which is remitted in Baptism, which Christ satisfied for by his blood? or is God angry with us for nothing? It must therefore needs be sin. Original sin (saith he) remaineth not substantially, as it were some body or spirit, but it is a certain affection of an evil quality, like a disease. Finally Ambrose most plainly: Ambros. in Rom. 6. c. 7. u DUR. Ambrose his words refel your error. WHIT. pag. 577. Nay they refel your error. For he saith, it is a straying from good. Now this straying is an action, and not a mere privation. And you yourselves earnestly defend that sin is an action. If it be an action, than an accident, than no mere privation, them not nothing. How dwelleth sin in the flesh, seeing it is no substance, but a straying from good? Therefore let us, if you please, send away the suspicion of this error imposed by you upon us, to the author himself. As for that you add, that it is a thing commonly held by this filthy sect, that all sins be equal, verily nothing could be spoken more impudently. Pardon me, Campian, if I answer you somewhat sharply: for your unmodest and intolerable impudency wrung that term from me. Are you so far spent that you are not able to charge us with any true crime, but shamelessly to object those things against us, from which we, of all others, are farthest off? For who did ever more vehemently disallow, or more strongly confute this paradox of the Stoics, than our Divines, whom you now pursue? All records of these times may be witnesses hereof, our books, Churches and Schools be witnesses, as also both the civil and Church Discipline may be a witness. Did you think that you could creep into the minds of our University men by these means, by lying so openly, so shamefully, and so boldly? O Rome, what a Campian hast thou returned to us! how much changed from him that he was when thou receivedst him? Art thou wont so to instruct, adorn and polish thy pensioners, as that they retain nothing of their ancient shamefastness? What may I complain of, or to whom should I appeal? surely even to the very same our University men, to whom you yourself write: they may convince you by their testimonies. For within these two years our Cambridge men have heard this very matter twice propounded and defended in the divinity Schools, That sins are not equal. If neither our own confession, nor the testimony of all mortal men can make enough for the defending of our innocency; be it, that we are stoics, and heretics, and every thing else. But these are * DUR. Herein Caluin made sins equal, for that he thought all sins to be deadly, and worthy of everlasting punishment. WHIT. pag. 578. Therefore doth Caluin make all sins equal, because he proveth that all sinner are in their own nature deadly? but the Scripture hath taught this most plainly. For if every sin be the transgression of God's law, and an aversion & defection from God, which is the chiefest good, it must needs in itself deserve eternal death, Rom. 6.21.23. jam. 2.10. though every sin in God's justice is odiudged to eternal death, yet it doth not equally deserve it. Caluins words, saith Campian, howsoever with an exception, if they be pondered by God the judge. What are these the words of Caluin? that he saith sins are equal, but so, if they be weighed by God the judge? nothing less: for God's judgements could not be right, if so be he did judge sins to be equal. But mark ye a singular witness. The Fathers of the Council of Trent pronounce a curse on them, who affirm that a just man doth sin either mortally or venially in every good work. To this Caluin answereth that which Solomon saith, Antidote. 6. Sess. in Can. 25. that man thinketh his own ways right, but God pondereth the hearts. But in the judgement of God nothing is sincere and honest, but that which floweth from the perfect love of him. Caluin speaketh not one word of the equality of sins, nor was there any cause why he should. Only this he intendeth, if the Lord would weigh in his balance the excellentest works of godly men, that he would easily find what to condemn: what is this to the purpose? As for that, that Thomas Walsingham did object against Wicliffe, it is not much material, he wrote many things against Wicliffe being dead, and let pass no slander which witty malice could devise. While Wicliffe was alive, no adversaries could hurt him, but being dead they condemned him, they plucked him out of his grave, burned his body, when they might without danger devise any thing against that most holy man. Neither can I ever be induced to believe, that Wicliffe taught these things, if this imputation depend upon no greater credit than of an adversary. As touching that, that you report of the Duke of Guise, I defend not the fact: he that committed it, suffered punishment greater I wis, than Taverners are wont, that kill pullen when there is no need. I confess that the Guise was a man of admirable fortitude: I would he had been of more clemency. He was slain, even as you say, by a wicked man, whom if perhaps either hope of impunity or fear of punishment did induce, that being examined, he did accuse very noble and innocent men, it is neither marvelous nor new. Him that he did appeach as the Ringleader of his plot, the King himself did pronounce an innocent: but as for Beza all good men have acquitted him in their judgements long ago. From Sin you pass your speech to Grace: Of Grace. I would rather you yourself did make passage: and you hope, that we who are so strict in the matter of sin, will play the Philosophers so gloriously about God's Grace. Surely we shall think we play the Philosophers very well, if we refer all our Philosophy for the amplifying of the Cross of Christ. Gal. 6.14. You also do treat of Grace, but as still you are wont, in few words. But what do you reprove in our Philosophy? because we place Grace out of us only in the favouer of God. For you, Campian, would have your men to be persuaded, that we take all Grace from man, and do place it only in the mind of God, like Plato's Idea. But either you know not what you talk of in this place, and that you are ignorant of this Philosophy, or else you suffer not our opinion, being enfolded in your slanders, to be manifest. For we make grace to be twofold (that I may omit many distinctions) wherein we do not disallow the Philosophy of your School men. For either Grace declareth the free goodwill and clemency of God toward us, or else it signifieth those gifts, which flow out of that mercy of God to us. That they commonly call, Grace making acceptable; and this, Grace freely given. Now for that x DUR. I know well your doctrine of imputative justice, than which I know not whether any man can devise one thing more against the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 582. Thus you speak, like a jesuite: but what is there that the Scripture doth more celebrated than imputative justice? Rom. 4.3.4.5.6. is a most clear text for it. But what? know you not that our sins were imputed to Christ? and why then may not Christ's righteousness be imputed to us in l●ke manner? Think you that Christ had our sins really infused into him? I suppose, you will never say so: seeing then in the one part you are compelled against your will to confess an imputation, why do you not also grant it in the other, specially seeing the Apostle himself propoundeth us this Antithesis, 2. Cor. 5.21. Christ was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him? Therefore we are so made righteousness in Christ, as he was made sin for us, which must necessarily be understood of imputation. And ve●●ly whereas our injustice or iniquity is a debt, and Christ hath paid it, then must it of necessity follow, that, that payment is ours no otherwise then only by imputation. Again, I pray you, what can be imagined more absurd, then that the merit● of Saints should be imputed unto us, and Christ his righteousness cannot be? for they who buy indulgences with money, do not doubt but to reap much fruit from the merits of others. It then the merits of Saints, as you think, can make them more just, in whom they are not inherent, what an impious and absurd thing were it to give less power of imputation to the merits and righteousness of Christ? DUR. Charity i● the end of the Law. Rom. 13. For he that loveth his brother hath fulfilled the Law. So that if charity be truly in us, we have true justice: and well said Augustine, Charity begun, is justice begun; charity increased, is justice increased; great charity is great justice; perfect charity is perfect justice. WHIT. pag. 583. All is true you say touching charity. love your neighbour as the law requireth, and you have fulfilled the second Fable: but this you cannot do; therefore be not brag in the opinion of your charity, which if it were as great as ever any man had, yet it should be far short of that the Law requireth, neither can it make you just. As for Augustine we confess as much as he saith: but this is not the justice which freith us from the wrath of God, for that never increaseth or groweth, but is ever most absolute and perfect, that is Christ his obedience imputed unto us by faith. Of charity August. Epist. 29. writeth thus. As long as charity may be increased, that verily which is less, is faulty: by that which is faulty, there is none just upon earth. goodwill and favour whereby the Lord embraceth us in Christ, and forgiveth us our sins, and receiveth us into favour; we place it in God: but the effects of this Grace are in us: which effects are these, that we do by the holy Ghost perceive that we are loved of God, that we believe in God, and repose all hope of salvation in that mercy of God. We do not therefore take away all grace from man, and place it only in God's favour: but that first grace, whereby he hath reconciled us to himself in Christ, and wherein our salvation is contained, that alone we place in God; which being felt by us, faith, hope, and charity and other virtues do follow it, which are ours, and resident in us. But we deny that position of yours of infused grace, whereby you defend, that the grace whereby we are justified, is a certain habit situate in our minds within: and we acknowledge no other justifying y DUR. Why do you not then freely confess that you do place all grace only in the favour of God without us, which favour doth neither amend the wicked, nor purge, nor illuminate, nor enrich them, but only dissemble their old remaining & stinking channel, God winking at it? WHIT. pag. 584. You cease not to trouble us with your ignorance: for doth it follow that we remove all grace from us, because we place justifying grace, which is the mercy of God in Christ, not in us, but in God only? for beside this grace, there is another grace communicated to all the Saints, whereby their soul's ●re purged and renewed. This consisteth in faith, and in the fruits of faith, which they commonly call Grace infused: therefore that channel of sin doth remain not within them, that have attained true righteousness, as you slander us to teach; but by the power of the holy Ghost it is daily purged out; yet so, that as long as we live there remain some relics of sin & old Adam. For if that channel were so purged, that no blots of sin did remain in us; neither would S. Paul complain of the law of his members, and the body of death, Rom. 7.23.24. Neither should we need the renewing of the spirit, 2. Cor. 4.16. grace, but the great and free mercy of God, whereby he did elect and predestinate us in Christ before all eternity unto life everlasting, and hath called us in time and justified us. z DUR. But what place of Scripture doth distinguish justification from sanctification? S. Paul doth not, 1. Cor. 6.11. Rom. 6.13. That also is a strange thing, that faith should justify us and not sanctify us: but more strange that Christ should impute his righteousness to us, that we may be just, and yet not holy and sanctified. WHIT. pag 586. Who can read the Scripture, specially the Epistle to the Romans, and not find these two distinguished? for in the first part of it he treateth of justification, in the latter of sanctification; what is more manifest than that he writeth, Rom 8.30. whom he hath called, those he hath justified; whom he hath iustisted, those he hath glorified. Now this glorification signifieth the glorious renovation, which is begun here, and perfected in another life, as your Thomas upon this place hath observed. Again, 1. Cor. 1.30. Is not here justification and sanctification distinguished? justification and sanctification are inseparable, yet must they be distinguished: which because you do not, you place justification in sanctification Your place out of the Epistle to the Corinth's, doth plainly distinguish them. Your second place showeth that a kind of justification is in sanctification: but it is not that perpect justice, by which we are justified before God, but only an imperfect one. As for your wonders and strange things, they come from your ignorance: for we have never separated these two, but affirm that he who is by faith partaker of Christ his righteousness, must needs have the old man crucified, and the body of sin destroyed in him, that he may no longer serve sin. For grace infused, wherein regeneration and sanctification consisteth, and which the Scriptures call the new man, is not strong enough to justify us, a DUR. Grace infused and our inherent righteousness, though it be not perfect, yet it is true justice, and doth justify us. WHIT. pag. 58●. By this you overthrow your doctrine of justification: for that justice which doth reconcile us to God ought to be most perfect, that such as neither the law nor God himself can require a more perfect. That which is not perfect, is in it kind corrupt. If then ●n imperfect justice can please God, than a corrupt thing will please him, and so should he not be perfectly just: but being most just, that only pleaseth him, which is according to the prescription of the law, most perfect. Luk. 10.27.28. Levit. 18.5. because it never satisfieth the law of God in this life, and aught every day to be restored, and aspire to greater perfection. For so Paul saith, 2. Cor. 4.16. Although our outward man perish, yet our inward man is renewed daily: which place Augustine hath very often used in this cause. You see therefore both what grace we place in God, and what we confess to be infused into our hearts. For as for that you say we bark out, that grace is not strong enough for the resisting of sin, therein you go about through our sides to wound Paul himself, upon whom this your reproach reboundeth. Rom. 7.18.19.21.23. For though he were endued with infused grace, as much as any other, yet he denieth that he could attain, to perfect that which is good: b DUR. S. Paul saith only, that he was assayed and tempted by those motions; but seeing it is not sin, where the consent of the will is not, be saith, it was not he that did it, but the flesh, for he doubted not but grace was sufficient for him, whereby be might overcome all these, seeing he had the word of Christ for it. 2. Cor. 12.9. And he shevoeth that by this grace we may overcome our corruptions, Rom. 7.25. WHIT. pag. 594. But the Apostle showeth that he was not only tempted by these, but overcome. Rom. 7.15. he ●aith, he did that which he hated. Why did he hate it, unless it were worthy hatred? Now nothing is worthy hatred, but sin. And vers. 19 he addeth, he did the evil, which he would not. Then he sinned: for to be tempted with evil, is not to do that a man would not: but to be tempted and to overcome them, is to do that a man both should and would do. And vers. 23. he saith, he was led captive to the la of sin. How can he be a captive and not be overcome? Believe the Apostle then, and he could not resist sin always by all his grace. But you say his will did not give consent: be it so, yet those motions are sin against the tenth Commandment. For Rom. 7.7. he showeth that he speaketh of concupiscence without consent. For lusts with consent, subduing the will, the Philosophers confessed to be sin. For the place you allege 2. Cor. 12.9. the sufficiency of God's grace is but so much, that he should not be swallowed up of temptations. The godly fall often, but God lifteth them up again. For the other place, Rom. 7.25. you are deceived by the corrupt Latin translation. For in the Greek it is, I thank God by jesus Christ: you read it as if ask the question, who should deliver him from the body of death; he had answered himself; The grace of God by ●esus Christ, when he giveth thanks to God, as if he had said; Though this body of death be troublesome unto me, because it compelleth me to serve sin, yet I rest in that hope, which I have placed in Christ. for that he did not the good which he would, but the evil that he would not: and that when he desired to do good, evil was present with him: finally that the law of his members doth so rebel against the law of his mind, that it maketh him captive to the law of sin. Hence you may know how great strength sin hath, which even the Apostle himself, albeit he were endued with singular grace, could not so fully resist, but that sometimes he was both overcome of it, and bound up in it, as Augustine speaketh. If you doubt, Campians, whether the Apostle spoke this of himself, I had rather you should take advise of Augustine, August. de verb. Apost. Serm. 5 & ●libi. Gal. 5.17. than of the Masters of Trent, seeing they be very bad interpreters of the Apostle. What should I remember to you David, and the rest of the Fathers, who have taught by their examples, that it is not easy to resist sin? but herein you are like yourself, in that you say, that Christ is no otherwise said by us to b● full of grace and truth, but th●●, that the Father did very much favour him. I pray you Campian, whence could you gather this? Do we not say that Christ was full of grace so; that from his fullness we all receive grace: who of us did ever deny that there was very great and infinite grace in Christ. For they that say that Christ was so full of grace, that all men did declare that he was worthy of the unspeakable favour both of God and men, they do not only hold, that Christ was no otherwise full of grace, but herein that God did very much favour him; but also they do set out Christ's grace to have been more abundant. For they do confess, joh. 3.34. both that the grace of the spirit was plentiful in Christ without measure, and also they hold that there did an outward grace so shine forth in Christ, that all did love him and did perceive that he was beloved of God, this doth Brentius and Bucer, and all our Divines acknowledge. What thing therefore (say you) is justice? Of justice. you make answer to yourself, a Relation. If you commence an action against us about Aristotle's Predicaments, certainly we fear not, but we shall have a Philosopher gentle enough in this cause. For though justice be c DUR. That which is not at all cannot be a real Relation. WHIT. pag. 600. But Christ's righteousness is not, not at all. For Christ performed all things which the Law required, therefore was endued with the quality of perfect justice: but that reason which persuadeth us, to confess, that this righteousness of the Law in Christ was a quality, the same compelleth us to think that this righteousness is not a quality inherent in us; for that we never in our own person obeyed the Law. Now what doth let, that that righteousness in Christ cannot be made ours by relation and imputation? for common sense might have taught you this, if a man do pay money in your name, this payment is yours by imputation. If you ask, how that is yours, which is not inherent in you; I say again, which thing the Apostle doth so oft press, it is yours by imputation. Now rub up your Philosophy, if you can, to prove that nothing is made ours by imputation. a Relation, yet Philosophy will not be cashiered: but that it is a quality you can never prove, either out of the Predicaments, or out of the chiefest Philosophy. But your Theological virtues, faith, hope, and charity, had never any injury offered to them by us: indeed they be so handled by you, that you seem to take them not for Theological, but for Philosophical virtues. But the cause that maketh us not to hold, that our righteousness is compounded of these virtues, as you would have it, is this, because they are never so perfect in this life, as throughlie to satisfy the law of God: now the law must be satisfied or else we cannot be just. For the Lord doth allow no other righteousness, but the very same which is described in the law, which whosoever cannot attain, are pronounced guilty of eternal death. Therefore if we will be righteous and saved, and free from that horrible curse, such a righteousness must be sought out, than which the law cannot require a more absolute. And where shall we find this? Is it in our virtues, in our faith, in our charity? But these are weak many ways, and want that integrity which the law requireth, & whereunto it propoundeth righteousness. For faith is but begun, & we are always to pray that it may be increased in us. Now if faith be weak, Rom 1.17. Luc. 17.5. other virtues which spring from faith, cannot be perfect. But righteousness must be of that kind, as that nothing at all may be added thereunto. From hence it followeth, that righteousness is not compounded of our virtues, as you unfitly speak, but it must be fetched elsewhere. Seeing therefore we had no such virtue, as might obtain righteousness for us with the Lord, Christ was given us by the Lord, who performed perfect obedience to the law, that by his obedience we might be made righteous. For this obedience of Christ imputed to us, and apprehended by faith, Rom. 5.19. is that righteousness of ours, which you inquire after, not heaped up with our virtues, as you would have it, but place in Christ, who is made unto us of God, 1. Cor. 1.30. wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. And this is our d DUR. The Scripture plainly witnesseth, that as we are made sinners by Adam, so we are made just by Christ. Rom. 5. WHIT. pag. 602. You understand not the Apostle. For though we be just in Christ, as we were sinners in Adam, yet not after the same manner. In Adam we sinned, and had his sin by propagation derived to us: but the justice of Christ, thought it was communicated unto us by imputation, ye 〈◊〉 ●as it not so derived unto us. The Apostle would only teach and say this, as Adam was the author of sin, so Christ was the author of righteousness. righteousness, even Christ e DUR. Answer me I pray you, why the Apostles and Christ do so oft exhort us to the obedience of the law? and never bid us apprehend the righteousness of Christ by faith? as Luk. 10. Matth. 25. WHIT. pag. 603. Christ and his Apostles do exhort us to the obedience of the law, not to the end we may deserve everlasting life by our works, but because it is our duty to walk in that race of piety wherein we are placed, that we walking in those good works, and insisting in that way which the Lord hath propounded to us, may come at length to that most happy mark For albeit we never come to a mark unless we go the right way, yet the way is not the cause of the mark. Now whereas you say that we are no where commanded to apprehend Christ righteousness by faith, you bewray your miserable ignorance. Peruse therefore better these famous places for proof of that the Scriptures do command us this. Rom. 4.5. Rom. 5.19. Rom. 1.17. Gal. 2.16. Gal. 3.14. jon. 3 18. joh. 5.24. Act. 10.43. As for the cause for which Christ in Matth. 25. saith he will make mention of works in the day of judgement, it is for that as james (chap. 2.18.) saith, works do make show & proof of faith. But in that very place vers. 34. before Christ mentioneth those works of the Saints, he toucheth the true and proper causes of salvation. 1. God's adoption in Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 possess by the right of inheritance. For that which one possesseth by the right of inheritance, he doth not deserve it by his merits. 2. The eternal election of God, when he saith that it is a kingdom prepared for them from the foundations of the world. Now if your opinion be this, that God did prepare them this kingdom, because he did foresee their great good works, your own Thomas is an adversary against you. Thom de verit. quast. 6. art. 2. & Thom. 1. part quaest. 23. art 1. himself, whose f DUR. Christ is called by S. Paul our righteousness: so in the same place he saith, that he is our wisdom, and our sanctification. WHIT pag. 609. That wisdom, and righteousness, & sanctification, which S. Paul affirmeth Christ to be made unto us, are not resident in us as qualities, nor are they otherwise ours, than as we do embrace and possess whole Christ by faith. righteousness and innocency being ascribed unto us, doth bring assured remission of sins, and true righteousness. This the Divines call the first justice, after which followeth another, compounded of these virtues of yours. For with that remission of sins, which dependeth on Christ's obedience, faith, and hope, & charity are joined, which make us just also after a sort, but inchoatively not perfectly. I have declared to you in few words our opinion touching righteousness, sith you make inquiry, what it is. But your virtues cannot so the soul round about, as that no naked thing may appear. For all our righteousnesses, are like g DUR. If you speak of that justice, which we get to ourselves without the help of Christ, you say truly: but if of that which Christ hath purchased for us by his blood, and powered into our hearts, you do an intolerable iuturie unto Christ. WHIT. pag 610. I speak of that righteousness which every regenerate man hath by the help of Christ. For do you think the Prophet wanted the help of Christ? yet he professeth his righteousness is impure and imperfect: if you think he did speak of their works which are not regenerate, you must deny that he was regenerate, who confesseth the imperfection of his works. Of this righteousness Beruard doth understand it, Serm. 5. de verbis Isay And all the godly have thus confessed of them clues. Psal. 130.3. Dan. 9.7. Ezra. 9.15. job. 9.3.28. 1. joh. 1.8. & 1. joh. 2.7. filthy clouts, Esay 64.6. and those not only defiled, but also torn and rend in many pieces. Rom. 13.14. Phil. 3 9 2. Cor. 5.19. Christ himself must be put upon us, that we may be found in him, not having our own h DUR. Saint Paul calleth the righteousness of the law, that which is gotten by the doctrine of the la without the help of Grace: And the justice of faith, not any apprehended by faith, but because they come unto it by faith. WHIT. pag. 613. In examining the place we shall see of what justice S. Paul speaketh: first he denieth that to be any part of justice, whatsoever he had gloriously done when he was a Pharisie; that though he was then according to the justice of the Law without reproof, & endued with many good qualities, yet he accounted all loffe for Christ's sake. vers. 4.5.6.7. And lest any should think that he attributed any thing to his works ofter faith; he addeth that he rejecteth these also, neither ascribed his justification unto them. Adding in the 8. verse. that he accounted all things loss. Not the other, but these also I contemn: and upon this inferreth. vers. 9 Not having my own righteousness, which is of the law▪ but that which is through the faith of Christ. When then he excludeth all kind of works, he must needs understand the justice of Christ. righteousness which is of the law, but that which is by the faith of Christ; namely the righteousness that is of God through faith. For God was in Christ and reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their sins to them. With this clothing our souls must be clothed, that they may be beautified and gloriously adorned: neither are we ashamed of that word, upon which you play, when we say that our righteousness is a covering of the fault. For so doth the Prophet David pronounce him to be a blessed man, Psal. 22.1. Rom. 4.6. whose iniquities be forgiven, & whose sins are covered. And this pardon we apprehended only by faith: now this faith is not feigned, nor dead, nor separate from other virtues, nor void of good works, but it is of that nature, that it worketh by love. It is therefore faith alone, which justifieth, that is, which embraceth Christ's obedience wherein our righteousness consisteth; but yet this faith which justifieth, is never alone: for it is ever accompanied with hope, and charity, and doth not suffer itself to be disjoined from it. For as the heat alone of the fire doth set the wood on fire, and yet this heat is not alone, but continually joined with the light: so faith alone of itself doth justify, albeit it can never be quite alone. Now seeing that all our righteousness and happiness, do consist in the pardon of sins, we also teach that this aught to be most certainly persuaded to us and known of us, so as our souls may rest therein as in a most safe and quiet haven. For being justified by faith, we have peace toward God, through our Lord jesus Christ. Now what could this peace be, it we were always distracted with a doubtful hope & thoughts, and tossed as it were with waves hither and thither about our salvation? Albeit therefore our consciences are set upon oftentimes by many terrors, so as they cannot be so secure in this life, as if we did already enjoy the endless joy of heaven; yet we say that this faith ought to depend most certainly and strongly upon the promises of God, so as we may expel all doubting about the grace of God, our adoption, and salvation. For true faith cannot agree with unbelief. It is the property of this to distrust God's promises, but the property of that is to overcome and drive away all doubting; as much as may be. But if faith be full of doubting, wherein doth it go beyond unbelief? let us believe the Apostle, who both knew very well, and hath described exactly the nature of true faith. He propoundeth Abraham unto un, in whom we may behold a most notable image of true faith. What did he? did he stagger? was he in suspense with himself? did he doubt? nay in him all things were contrary: Rom. 4. 1●. he against hope did believe under hope: he was not weak in the faith: he did not discourse against the promise of God through unbelief: he was strengthened in the faith: he was fully persuaded, that God which had promised, could perform it. And this faith was imputed to him for righteousness. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. This was Abraham's faith: shall ours be unlike it? but he is our Father, we his children, and children should be like their father. The conclusion is made now against you Campian, that by faith we are i DUR. You can never show out of God's word, that forgiveness of all sins is given to them, who apprehend the righteousness of Christ by saith. WHIT. pag. 618. This that you deny to be showed in the Scriptures, is most plainly taught in them, as joh. 3.16. Act. 10.43. Act. 13.39. DUR. But we know not whether we be endued with true faith. WHIT. pag. 620. Indeed it cannot be denied, that many are deceived with a feigned faith: but they who are endued with true faith, they do know that they have true faith: so did Paul 2. Tim. 1.12. know for himself & in 2. Cor. 13.5. he biddeth other learn to know it. So a Christian may know that he hath true faith, & that by the spirit that he hath given us, as 1. joh. 3.24. made certain of our salvation, and that your variable and suspicious faith is liker to infidelity than to faith. Basil. in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. k DUR. That which you bring out of Basil and the Tridentime Catechism doth overthrow yourself: & what certainty can a man have of his justification, when as S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 4.4. I know nothing by myself, yet am I not thereby justified. And the like hath job. cap. 9.15.20. WHIT pag. 622. If they attribute to faith a most certain persuasion without doubting, as they do, do they not confirm our doctrine, that a man may be certain of his salvation. For those temptations which come from the flesh, though they may shake it, yet they cannot overthrow it. As for S. Paul doth he deny himself to be justified, doth he doubt of his salvation? Read the end of the eight to the Romans, and you shall find him so certain of his justification and salvation, as that you Papists are glad to answer, that he had it by an extraordinary revelation of the spirit. And do you now make him doubting of his salvation? But you understand not Saint Paul in the place you allege: for he doth not not deny that he is justified; but he saith that thereby he is not justified, because he knoweth nothing by himself. job also though he dare not trust to his own works and innocency, yet he showeth himself to be certain of his own salvation. job 19.26. Basil saith excellently: What is the property of faith? a full or certain persuasion void of all doubting. But what mean I to convince you by testimonies of the ancient, whom the very Catechism of Trent doth confute? Catechis. Trid. in 1. art Symb. The word belief (saith it) as the holy Scriptures teach, hath the force of most certain consent. Wherefore he believeth, to whom any thing is certain and assured without doubting. Now we believe everlasting life, therefore it ought to be most certain & assured to us without any doubting. I require now nothing more, the Catechism of the Council of Trent, ratified by the authority of the Pope and Council, teacheth me that a man ought to be certain of his salvation. But are you not yet quiet, but still question farther, for (say you) how can a man be sure l DUR. Who could ever be certain of his own perseverance to the end, without the peculiar revelation of God? WHIT. pag. 626. In this speech you cut in sunder the sinews of Gods everlasting decree. For seeing God's predestination is certain and unchangeable, it doth cause our calling, justifying, and glorifying to be as certain as itself. For is it in your power to dissolve and break in sunder that golden chain of the Apostle? Rom. 8.30. and to whom can his own perseverance be doubtful, seeing God testifieth his perpetual good will towards us, as these scriptures fully teach. jer. 32 40. joh. 13. 1. Luc 22.32. job. 17.20.21. Matth. 21.22. Rom. 8.9. joh. 14.16. joh. 10.28. Phil. 2.6. Rom. 11.29. 1. joh. 3.9. Matth. 24.24. of his future perseverance? That may be certain, Campian, by faith, which if it be true cannot utterly decay. Heb. 11.1. The Apostle termeth faith the m DUR. No man ever doubted but that all those things which we believe are most certain. But you ought to show that every ode ought to believe that he shall persevere in that faith to his end, Saint Paul showeth that certain had made shipwreck of faith. 1. Tim. 1.19. WHIT. pag. 627. The question is not whether things believed be certain or no: for that the Devils do certainly know; which is as much as you Papists do believe, by your own confession, and so you confess yourselves to be void of true faith But the faith, the Apostle speaketh of, doth not only believe those things are true in themselves, but that they are partakers of them. Therefore he saith, it is the ground of things hoped for, because it enjoyeth those good things which are prepared for another life by a certain & an approved hopes and the evidence of things not seen, because it now beholdeth things that are hid from our eyes. The perseverance then of the faithful is so certain, that they may think they have the possession of those things which they shall receive in another world. Now the faith S. Paul speaketh of, is not a justifying faith, but only true and sound doctrine, of which Hym●naeus and Alexander had made shipwtacke. ground of things that are hoped for, & the evidence of things that are not seen. Now how are those things extant which be hoped for, or demonstrated which are not seen, if faith be not perpetual? But they which are endued with this faith, they do now after a sort enjoy those good things, which are yet hoped for, & they do contemplate those things, which cannot be seen with men's eyes. So that faith admits us being alive here, and as the Apostle saith, 2. Cor. 5.7. walking by faith and not by sight, into the very possession of heaven, so as because we are n DUR. 1. Cor. 10. He that standeth let him take heed lest he fall. Phil. 2. work out your salvation which fear: the like. Heb. 4. WHIT. pag. 633. 1. You have falsified, 1. Cor. 10. for Paul's words are, he that thinketh he standeth let him take heed lest he fall. Wherein you go against even your own authentical Latin translation. Blush you not at this? 2. The very Saints themselves are diligently to be admonished, to fly carnal security, to be ware of Satan's assaults, and to be in continual care. And yet this hindereth not, but that they are in the mean while most certain of their salvation. For although Paul (Act. 27) sailing, did not doubt a whit whether he should come safe to land, yet he let pass nothing, which it behoved a man careful of his safety, to care for and to do. certain that we shall one day be there, we seem now after a sort to live and converse in heaven. But all these things would be fading and light, if saith could not persevere. Therefore o DUR Will you say that the Apostle speaketh in the person of all t●e elect. WHIT. pag. 629. The Apostle proveth it, speaking ●n their person; what shall separate us (not me only) from the love of Christ. And again, I am persuaded that nothing shall separate us (not me only) from the love of God which is in Christ jesus. Therefore he speaketh of all those who are predestinated. Paul had a most certain persuasion, that neither life nor death, nor things present, nor things to come, nor any other creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ jesus. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 8.38. But such as do not persevere, they may be separated: but these cannot be separated, therefore they persevere. And for this cause the pledge of our adoption, even the holy Ghost himself is given to us, who assureth us most certainly that we are the sons of God, so as now we do not doubt to call God Father. Cal. 4.6. But how dare such a one call him Father, who thinketh that he may be sometime not his son? for the Saints may profess with the Apostle, 1. joh. 3.2. we know that we shall be like him. Knowledge is certain, & consisteth on assured principles: to doubt is the property of opinion, not of knowledge. Hear Cyprian: Cyprian. de mortal. Let such a man fear to die, who not being borne again of water and the spirit, is thrall to the fire. Let him fear to die, that thinketh not he hath his part in Christ's Cross and Passion. Chrysost. cap. 5. ad Rom. Chrysostome upon these words of the Apostle, Into this grace wherein we stand, writeth thus: The grace of God hath no end, it knoweth no full point, but it maketh progress unto greater. And anon after, saith he, we must be fully assured not only of things given, but also of things to be given as well as of things given already. And Augustine: August. in Psal. 88 because therefore (saith he) the promise is firm not according to our merits, but according to his mercy, no man ought with fearfulness to preach (the kingdom of Christ in his Saints) whereof he ought not to doubt. But Augustine is wholly ours. For as you did lately conclude, that Augustine did allow free will, because he wrote three books of free will, so may I reason after the same manner, that Augustine did think of perseverance, as we do, because he wrote one book of the good of perseverance. To this I will join Bernard, whose golden words these be, Bernard. in Can. Ser. 61. My conscience is troubled, but it is not over troubled, because I will remember the wounds of the Lord. But I will allege no more testimonies. Faith is either perpetual, or else it is none at all: either it persevers to the last breath, ot else that which is esteemed for faith, is but some fancy. As for that, that you allege touching Luther, who you say affirmeth, that a Christian though he will cannot lose his salvation, unless he will not believe, this Luther never affirmed, either in that book or any where else. For if you shall turn over all Luther's writings, which you have not saluted, nor I believe, so much as seen, yet you can find this sentence no where. The Fathers of Trent have condemned this proposition and worthily: for it is impious, and to be reckoned among the chiefest paradoxes. But whose soever it was, certainly it was not Luther's. But, say you, Luther wrote so in his book of the captivity of Babylon. That is false: yet he wrote some such thing. I will tell you what it is; and that in a word. Luther reproveth the Papists, for that they thought that the grace of Baptism is quite lost by sin, and withal they brought in Penance a new Sacrament, which they term a second board, whereby the grace of Baptism might be recovered. Therefore he denieth that the power and grace of Baptism can so be lost by sins, but that it may be repaired by faith; which thing he proveth by many and mighty reasons. In that therefore Luther taught, that the grace of Baptism cannot be lost, unless one will not believe; and this the Fathers of Trent and our countryman Campian do so interpret, as if he had said, that which these men object, that a Christian though he will cannot lose his salvation, unless he will not believe. Why should I confute so unsavoury an imagination with more words? You make haste to the Sacraments. Of the Sacraments. And I will pursue you as much haste as you make. Now here you cry on't most pitifully, O blessed Christ, they have left never a Sacrament, not two, not one. Dare you appeal to Christ, whose Sacraments ye have banished with great reproach out of the Church, that ye might bring in certain impure Sacraments not worthy to be named? we retain those Sacraments which Christ hath commended to us: if there had been need of more, he would have left more. We have two Sacraments, Baptism, and the Lords Supper: these Christ did institute, p DUR. Our seven Sacraments stand upon good ground and reason, & hath antiquity for them. WHIT. pag. 643. You should then produce some antiquity for the proof of them; but having none, why do you so brag of it. I wonder not at your silence, because I know that, that this number was never heard of before Hugo de Sancto Victore, and Peter Lombard brought them into the Church: and yet for them Lombard never gathered any testimony of ancient Fathers. Neither ever any Council, before the Florentine Council, did approve or establish this number. But your five bastard Sacraments, 1. Order. 2. Confirmation. 3. Extreme Unction. 4. Penance. 5. Marriage. I prove thus to be no true Sacraments of Christ's Church. 1. In every Sacrament is necessarily required and element or visible matter. But that neither your Order, not Confirmation, nor Penance, nor Marriage have, by any warrant of Scripture. 2. Those which are the proper Sacraments of the Church Christ did institute. But Christ instituted not any one of those five for Sacraments. 3. Sacraments belong to all Christians, But your Order, and Marriage pertain to a few in comparison. 4. Seeing you feign that grace lieth hid in the Sacraments, and is by them transmitted unto men, prove us which parts of these Sacraments do contain the grace enclosed. What answer soever you make you will be taken napping. Therefore these five bastard Sacraments, are no true Sacraments of Christ's Church. these the ancient Church acknowledge, and with these the later Church ought to have been contented. For that it is most evident, that for seven Sacraments, for so many you hold, that not a footstep of antiquity can be found. O blessed Christ, they have seven Sacraments, & yet they have no Sacrament, because they have not thine. For those Sacraments which are not thine, are no Sacraments at all. Their bread, say you, is poison, and what is our wine? but the common people among you taste not of that at all: belike, lest they should think that you did drink to them of a poison. We do use that bread and that wine in the Lord's Supper, which Christ himself commanded to use. That which he delivered, we have received: that which he did, we do: in the bread and wine we celebrate the remembrance of our Redeemer. If those were wholesome, ours cannot be deadly. Baptism (say you) although it be as yet among them true, notwithstanding in their judgement it is nothing. You yourself confess that our Baptism is true● I take it for granted. But why is it true? because we baptise so, as Christ hath commanded us. We keep the law of Christ, we throw your, I know not q DUR. What is that you call trash? which of the ancient Fathers have been. who have not made mention of our ceremonies. WHIT. pag. 658. Christ commanded nothing to the Church touching these trifles; & though we read often of Baptism in the word, & of many, yet there is no word touching any of these Shall we then think that the Church in later times hath known better, what ceremonies were fit for the Sacrament than Christ and his Apostles? where did ever any of them use salt, spittle, candles, etc. in this Sacrament. what, trash away; the like have we done in the other Sacrament, not have we departed a nails breadth from Christ's precept. If ours be true Baptism, then is out r DUR. When bread and wine is your Eucharist (neither do you believe Christ gave any other thing in the Supper) we leave you your Eucharist also. WHIT. pag. 660. If we have true Baptism; why not the Eucharist? we follow Christ's commandment in both. Further you falsely accuse us, who think bread & wine to be but one part of the Sacrament, as Ireneus and antiquity hath done; & Christ his body and blood the other. But you have no Eucharist at all, who profess you have neither bread nor wine. Eucharist true also. But in their judgement (say you) it is nothing. Why so? It is not the water of salvation, it is not the conduit of grace, it doth not derive the merits of Christ into ut; but only it is a signification of salvation. All these things are feigned & false. For we preach it to be the saving water, and a s DUR But Caluin denieth all this, making it only a sign and seal, by which we are assured of the grace bestowed upon us. WHIT. pag. 663. Doth it follow hence that grace and remission of sin is not given unto us in Baptism? As if by the seal of the King's Charter some thing is not both given unto us, and confirmed? And in Baptism this confirmation is but a more bountiful donation. channel of grace, and we doubt not but it deriveth Christ's merits into us. For it doth not only signify salvation, but also it performeth & bringeth it indeed to them that use Baptism aright and holily. For in Baptism we receive forgivene▪ of our sins, we are accepted into the family of Christ, we are endowed with the holy Ghost, we are raised up to a most certain hope of everlasting life. Are these matters of nothing to you, Campian? shall this Baptism be nothing, wherein we obtain so many and so great good things? but what manner of thing is your Baptism: or what hath it more, which ours ought to have? hath it grace? or the merits of Christ? or salvation? Ours also hath these things; what then is wanting in it, why it should not be true both in ours and others judgement? I know your meaning. It conveyeth not grace by the work wrought. This indeed is a magical and pestilent device, that you should think t DUR. We think not so, but that it is in it, as in an instrument. And so hath Thomas taught. WHIT. pag. 664. Then you reject and condemn all your old Sophisters, who have taught that grace is included in the Sacrament, as health is in a medicine or salve. For as that doth cure the disease whether he believe or no that is sick, only if he take it: so the Sacrament doth give grace without any faith or good motion of the receiver, so he hath no mortal sin to hinder it. grace to be enclosed in the water itself, as it were in a pipe, which sheddeth itself forth into all men, though quite void of faith. For what availeth the Sacrament without faith, but to his perdition who receiveth the Sacrament: that monster I do abhor and detest with mine whole heart. You add, therefore they have made no more reckoning of the Baptism of Christ, then of john's, that is, a mere ceremony. I am not ignorant what the Father's thought of the Baptism of john. But I heed what the Scriptures teacheth, not what they imagined. In them both there was the u DUR. But Matth. 3.11. john baptized with water only, Christ with the Spirit. WHIT. pag. 669. Here is no comparison between the Baptism, but the persons: for not john only, but not Peter nor any Minister of the Gospel, can give the holy Ghost to those whom they do baptize. Men give but the outward sign, it is Christ who giveth the Spirit. DUR. Why were they Act. 19 4.5. baptized again whom john had baptized, if it be the same Baptism. WHIT. pag. 671. They were not rebaptized, as Ambr●se saith, the Spirit. Sanct. lib. 1. cap. 3. And the 5. vers. being S. Paule● words, they are to be understood not of those Ephesians, but of the people whom John baptized. As if S. Paul had said. John taught those who came to his Baptism to believe in Christ who was to come: and they when they heard it, were baptized in the name of the ●ord jesus. From this than can be gathered no differenc● of these two Baptisms. same ceremony, the same doctrine, and the same grace. If there were any thing unlike in these things, I refuse not to confess, that the Baptism of john and Christ were divers. Now john joined repentance, Mat. 3. 2.1● Luk. 3.3. which is the fruit of true regeneration, with his Baptism, and offered this Baptism for the remission of sins. If the Baptism of john wanted not repentance and remission of sins, I see not why it should be held so much different from the Baptism of Christ. And what is the cause, * DUR. Because that Baptism did prepare men to regeneration, of which preparation Christ had no need. WHIT. pag. 673. This is but your coined distinction, for the Fathers speak and answer otherwise. Chrys●st. in 3. Matth. not that he should receive remission of sin by baptism, but that be might leave sanctified waters for those who should after be baptized. And August. in cat. ●ur. in 3. Matth. Our Saviour would therefore be baptized, not that Bee might be sanctified, but that he might sanctify the waters for us. why the Father's demand, wherefore Christ, who needed no regeneration, did come to the Baptism of john, but because they judged that his Baptism had the power of regeneration? Concerning that which you annex: If you have it, it is well: if you want it, there is no hurt: believe, and you shall be saved before you be baptized; we do not speak so loosely, as you imagine. For we will not have it to be in any one's choice, to be baptized if he will, and to leave it if he will not. Yet we do not think that Baptism is so x DUR. What? If without Baptism infants may obtain eternal life, is it not your judgements, that it is no hurt to them though they want Baptism? But Christ thought far otherwise. joh. 3.5. WHIT. pag. 675. It is a wicked and barbarous opinion to think that they who die before they can come to Baptism, are damned. For who will say, that the infants of the jews, who died before the eight day did p●rish? And when in former ages they deferred Baptism till the hour of death, did they think it so absolute necessary? Will you say that an infant is not of the number of the elect, because God will that he die before Baptism? if you will, you shall be accounted bold, rash, and impious. As for the place of john. Christ doth not think that none can come into heaven, which wanteth the outward Baptism. The thief was with Christ in Paradise, and yet was unbaptised with the outward Baptism. But the truth is, by water Christ meaneth there the Spirit, as appeareth by conference of places. Matth. 3.11. As there fire, so here water signifieth the power of the Spirit: & joh. 4.10. simply necessary to salvation, that he that is not entered by Baptism, must needs perish everlastingly. For the salvation of a Christian man consists in the mercy of God, which is not so tied & bound to any Sacraments, y DUR. God hath showed his will, joh. 3.5. And ●hen S. Paul makes all by nature the Children of wrath: Ephes. 2.3. If there be no remedy against this evil in the Scripture, but Baptism, what can be, but that they who die without Baptism, must needs die in the same condition? WHIT. 677. God in no place hath showed this to be his will; that they who die without Baptism, shall perish. Of the words of Christ have ●in spoken, which if they be understood of Baptism, they belong only to those who are of grown years. That by no other means we can be freed from the miserable state of nature, but by Baptism, is very false. For the Spirit of God doth in and without the Sacrament, doth communicate his graces. as that he cannot save those, whom he will not have perish, without them. Where the opportunity of Baptism is not, Gods promise alone is abundantly sufficient of itself. But whosoever either neglecteth Baptism through heedlessness, or boldly contemneth it, him we condemn of very heinous sin. For he doth both diminish the Majesty of Christ, and also refuseth his own salvation. But he that committeth neither, shall not answer for the fault of another. Therefore very right was that judgement of Bernard, z DUR. He speaketh not of infants, but of those who endued with true faith, were prevented by an untimely death that they could not be baptized. WHIT. pag. 680. How truly you speak we may judge out of the same Epistle. For he thus writeth. Who is ignorant that in former times they had other remedies against original sin; besides Baptism? for to Abraham and his seed ut as the Sacrament of Circumcision given to this end. But in other nations, so many as were found faithful, we believe that they, who were of years, were sanctified by faith and sacrifices: but the parent's faith did profit their infants, yea and was sufficient for them. If this was so before Christ, shall we think the condition of infants is now worse? not the want, but the contempt of Baptism is damnable. Bernard. in Epist. ad Hugon. In the rest that follow, as being small matters, you do but trifle. For neither do you yourself declare any thing of your own opinions, nor can you reprove any thing in ours. But I long to know, what you think of the faith of Infants. I suppose, you will grant that they have grace? For (say you) Baptism conferreth grace. But will you not yield that they have faith? I wish therefore you would teach me, to the end you may draw me wholly into your opinion, how there can be any grace more ancient than faith. But (say you) how can they believe, who do not yet understand whether they live or no? and do they therefore not live, because they understand not that they live? It is absurd. Wherefore if they live, although they do not understand they do so: a DUR. But speak plainly; if Infants have no faith, your new evangelical doctrine, teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend upon the faith of the receivers, must vanish. WHIT. pag. 681. I do no: think that Infants do believe, there being neither reason nor Scripture for it. And I answer that is not our doctrine you feign to be. We say, that to men of years without saith it is a Sacrament, but not a saving Sacrament: to children of believing patents, though they cannot for their years believe, yet it is a saving Sacrament, as Circumcision was to the Infants of the jews. For we doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerful unto them after a hidden and wonderful manner. As in the examples of jacob, jeremy, john Baptist, and others. happily also they do believe, albeit they perceive not that they believe. That is hard (say you:) be it so. Nor do I speak these things, as if I were wholly of that mind, but to the end I may fish out your mind, which our University m●n doubtless make great account of. But let us hear Luther's medicine: It is better (saith he) to omit it, because except the Infant believe, he is washed ●e●er a whit. But this medicine came out of your shop, not out of Luther's. And indeed you have offered us many such like medicines, very unsavoury, and ill favouredly seasoned: so that all your confections seem to be corrupt. But Luther did never persuade that Baptism should be omitted; & he was always earnest on that part, that Baptism should be given to Infants: and therefore you are so much the more unjust in this place, in that you would mar Luther's opinion with your medley. For these things are so alleged by you, as if Luther said, it were better to omit Baptism. Therefore let us hear Luther himself, and let Campians medicine alone. And yet (saith he) we deny not that Infants are to be baptized, Luther. adverse. Coc●laeum. nor do we enough that they receive Baptism without faith: but we say, that at Baptism they do believe by the power of the Word. He addeth: Or otherwise there would be mere and intolerable lies, when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do believe: as intending not to baptize, unless it be answered in the child● stead, I believe. Wherefore doth the Minister ask whether he do believe, if i● be a certain thing that they do not believe, as Cocleus maintaineth? Then he concludeth thus: But we hold that Infants are not to be baptized, ●f it be true that they in Baptism do not believe. Luther then maintaineth and determineth, that little children do believe, and he reproveth the Papists, because they teach things contrary each to other, while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet, to the end he may be baptized, they require faith of him. Who seethe not to what these things may be referred, so that he must needs be a most malicious man, who maketh Luther in these words a persuader of so wicked an opinion? And these things do they speak (say you) being doubtful in their own mind, what to maintain positively. Howsoever some do doubt of the faith of infants, yet we all determine clearly and positively that they are to be baptized. Therefore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentan● dayman, who was always more inclining to your side than to ours. But why do you object the Anabaptists to us, who hate us much more eagerly than you, and not without cause? b DUR. I know you do fight hotly against the Anabaptists, but with what weapons? Caluin was glad to fly to the Tradition of the Church: for be brought no place of Scripture against them, neither could be bring any. WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions. What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures, or more for the advantage of Anabaptists, then that this their heresy cannot be confuted by Scripture? But are you ignorant that Caluin used Scripture to refel this? And yet he produceth these places. Gen. 17.4. Matth. 19.13. & 28.19. which sufficiently overthrow the Anabaptists. And in the place you allege, he rather renounceth Traditions, then flieth to them for any defence. Jast. lib. 4 cap. 16. sect. 8. for we have both convicted them for heretics by our arguments, and also have expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths, who if they dwelled not with you, could find no place to remain in through the Christian world. You pass over the rest of the Sacraments, which I acknowledge to be none at all: nor do I understand which is that beast of many heads, whereof you make mention, unless perhaps you mean that threeheaded beast, of which john writeth many things in the Revelation. Hitherto Campian, Of Manners. you have examined certain opinions and positions of our men: in all which you have found as yet never a Paradox. For either the things that you object are such, as that nothing can be truer than they, or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a perverse meaning. But now, as if you were some new Censurer, and Master of the ancient discipline and severity, you make search into our manners, not, I think, to make them better, but to make them seem much worse than they be. Although he that reproveth the manners of other, it were meet that he should be without fault. And is there so great a change made of Rome upon the sudden? is their life now such? are their manners begun to be so goodly, that you being returned thence a Friar dare strive with us about virtue, shamefastness, and honesty? howsoever there be here many things done which ought not to be, yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licentiousness of sins in England, as you yourself have seen at Rome, the very tower of your religion and kingdom, all men will judge you to be too too impudent. Wherefore then do you propose to us those pieces of faults in Luther, seeing among you not only some fragments of vices, but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainly seen? surely as long as those public stews and dens of whores stand still in Rome, you could scarce honestly make mention of manners. But what are these pieces of faults in Luther? Is it for that you reprove some crime in his life? but that you neither can do, nor go about to do. You object certain sayings caught out of his books, and as you are wont torn from the rest of the body of the sentence; which seem presently as soon as they be propounded by you, to make show of some filthiness. About the most of which, seeing that you have had an answer made you by him whom you name, Reverend Charke, I marvel that you have returned them to us here again. There must needs be great lack of true imputations, seeing that you have no variety at all of false ones. And seeing that my fellow soldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligently in these things, those things which are largely enough confuted by him, shall be run over now by me briefly and shortly. It shall be therefore enough for me to cut in sunder these your pieces, which have been before so broken in shivers, as that they might seem able to hurt none. Wherefore now spew out these your morsels of reproaches. And hear ye them: If the wife will not, or cannot, let the maid come. A filthy and uncleanely speech as it seemeth. Luther wrote a little book of marriage, in the second part whereof he remembers three causes, whereby he thinketh marriage may be dissolved. The first is Impotency: another is, Adultery: the third is, Desertion. Now he expounds that to be desertion, when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no means be persuaded to perform the office of due benovelence to the husband, for there are some such froward wives found, that although the husband do fall ten times into whoredom, yet they regard it never a whit. Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband, to fray his wife with words, and to threaten her on this manner: If you will not, another will: If the mistress will not, let the maid come. With whom if threats prevail not, let him convent her before others, and bring the matter to the Church. But now if she be neither moved with private threatenings, nor by the public reproofs of the Church, then, saith Luther, divorce her and take Ester into Vashties place. Only to propound these things in this manner, is a very evident confutation of Campians reproach. For who doth not mark what counsel Luther gave to the husband? not that he should presently take his maid, but that he should propose threats of divorce to his obstinate wife, and break her stomach by that mean? Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of divorce, though I do not defend, yet you cannot accuse it. c DUR. You are ignorant that with us only adultery is the cause of divorce. WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your own Canons, for to omit others, see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed. If any shall say that the Church doth err when she decreeth that for many causes divorce from b●dde and cobabitation, may be had either for a certain or unlimited time, let him be accursed. Do not you now differ from your own Council, as also from the Apostle? For among you there be infinite causes of divorce, so as in so great liberty of divorce, it is marvel that any marriage stood in force. If Luther had at any time written any such thing, as we read was written by Clement, whom you brag to have been Pope of Rome, what tragedies would ye have raised? Hear Campian, & I would have you mark whereto this speech tendeth: d DUR. If you had seen some old copies, or weighed the scope of the Epistle, you might easily have seen that the place is corrupted. WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement, for I easily think that Clement would never speak so dishonestly. But when you father Epistles upon ancient Bishops, such as they never writ, God would show your perfidy by manifest demonstrations For copies we have none whether old or new but from you; and many I have seen, and they all have it. Yet remember that you here confess the Pope's decretal Epistles to be corrupted (why 〈◊〉 forged?) which other where you peremptorily deny. The common use of all things, Clement. Epist. 5. that are in this world, aught to be to all men. But through men's naughtiness one said that this was his, and another that; and so there is a division made between mortal men. Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians, knowing this to be so, saith, that all things among friends ought to be common. Now among all things, without doubt are husbands and wives. You may think you hear some Plato discoursing of the community of things: allege some like place of Luther's. What then followeth after in those patches of yours? For because the carnal knowledge of the wife is as necessary to every one, as meat, and drink, and sleep are. e DUR. Tertul. de Monog. Hieron. lib. 1. contra jovinian. understand it only of those who are married, that they might lawfully keep and have their wives still. WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretic Montanus, that you greatly approve of. And he that knoweth not Hierome to be further carried in the contempt of marriages, than the Scriptures do allow of, he accounteth the authority of Hieromes writings more than of the Word of God. But the Apostle rejecteth this interpretation, for when he commandeth that every man should have his wife to avoid fornication; who seethe not that this law concerneth the unmarried, who are forbidden fornication as well as the married? And after in the 9 vers he speaketh to the unmarried▪ If they cannot abstain, let them mar●●●: for it is better to marry then to burn. Therefore he doth not only command that they who have wives keep them still; but that they wh●● have not, should marry, if they found it necessary for them to avoid incontinency. The Apostle commandeth, 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that every one for the avoiding of fornication, have his wife, and every woman her own husband: and that they that cannot contain, should marry. They therefore who have it not given to them by God, as that they can always be without wives; to such it is necessary that they marry wives if they will be honest and chaste. For I confess that marriage is not necessary for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of uncleanness and lust. But go forward: Marriage is much better than Virginity, and against this, Christ and Saint Paul persuaded Christian men. The same things do not agree to all men: and that which is most profitable to some one, may be contrary to the inclinations of others. Virginity is one of those indifferent things, which are as they are used: for it is not simply good (for then it were unlawful at all to think of marriage) but after a sort. f DUR. What is this else but even the same that jovinian answered unto Hierome & the rest of the ancient Fathers? As Augustine showeth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24. WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoever will be single for this only end that he may live so much the more 〈◊〉 ●ase and in the more pleasure, and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage, do deserve to be blamed with jovinian. And this sort of men it is that Augustine doth justly reprove. For virginity is to be desired, not simply for that end that we may ●idde and free ourselves from the necessary business and cares accompanying marriage, but to the end we may with sitter opportunity and more conveniency serve God, as also the Apostle speaks; That you may so ●●w that which is honest, and that you may cleave fast unto the Lord without separation. 1. Co. 7.35. 〈◊〉 DUR. Who seethe not that that is more excellent in itself, which is more difficult and hard? And Christ saith, that after this life there is no marrying at all. And S. Paul, He that giveth his virgin to marriage, doth well: but he that giveth her not to marriage doth better. 1. Cor. 7.38. WHIT. pag 69●. I do not dispute against holy virginity, which I acknowledge is both hard & excellent. But single life must be distinguished from holy virginity. Very few attain this of that every one may make choice of. But your reason is of no great force, for the hardest things are not the most excellent. It is most hard for a man to live an hundred years: shall we therefore think that they who live so long, are more excellent than others? As for that in the kingdom of heaven there are no marriages, it is not of force against us: for we speak of the state of this life, after which, as there shall be no marriages, so no vows of virginity. In S. Paul, better, is as much as si●●es and more commodious: for if it were supply better, it were never lawful to do otherwise; which he alloweth. Therefore he thus spoke not for the nature of the thing, but in respect of circumstances: as you may see, vers. 26.28.32.35. Thus therefore stands the matter: they that can preserve their chastity in Virginity, they may be desirous of Virginity, and yet not absolutely, but by reason of the troubles which for the most part accompany marriage: but they that cannot live chaste, such must betake them to marriage, and that so as that if they do otherwise, they enfold themselves in great sin. So that Virginity is never, save only in some respect better than marriage, but g marriage oftentimes is absolutely better than virginity. Surely we do think honourably of both these estates of life: but among you virginity is advanced, but marriage basely esteemed. Basil holdeth rightly, Let virginity be honoured, let not marriage be despised. I had rather you should approve virginity by your deeds, than praise it with your words. Hieron. ad Furiam. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Why doth the tongue sound out chastity, and the whole body show forth uncleanness? For so do ye. Even as Epiphanius writeth of the Origenists. You refuse marriages, but not lust: it is not holiness, but hypocrisy that is in honour among you. For neither did Christ nor Paul enjoin virginity to any one that had not power to receive it. For (saith Bernard) virginity is not commanded, Bernard. de Virgin ser. 21. 1. Cor. 7.9. but advised. Nay, they that cannot contain, are commanded to marry. Wherefore the Apostle was not only of opinion that those ought not to keep their virginity, but also he dissuaded them from it: nor would he have dissuaded them from it, if Christ had persuaded them to it. Neither are these positions proper to Luther: for all good men do both acknowledge and defend them. But let us hear the rest: h DUR. Do you not think therefore that the devil himself is nearest of all to grace? WHIT. pag. 6●6. It is devilish so to dispute; Luther meant nothing else, but to stay men's consciences afflicted and troubled with the greatness of sin, and to comfort them with the mercy of God which, the greater sinner thou art, the greater is it on thee, when thou dost truly turn unto the Lord, as the Apostle saith, where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. Rom. 5.20. The more wicked that thou art, (saith he) so much the nearer art thou unto grace. The grace of Christ is sufficient not only for small sins, but also for the greatest: nor are small offenders only invited by Christ to come to him, but they also that are laden with the burden of their sins. Luther exhorts thee not to go forward in sin, but that thou shouldest not despair of pardon. And certainly the i DUR. Where learned you to call him a wicked man, that is truly penitent for his sins? WHIT. pag. 697. Christ saith, Luk. 15.7 There shall be joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth. Ask now, who taught Christ to call him a sinner that repenteth him of his sins; or why do you not quarrel with the Apostle, when he saith, God justifieth the ungodly. Rom 4.5? For he that is ungodly is not justified. more wicked that thou hast been in thy life bypassed, so much the more abundant grace shall embrace thee, if thou be truly penitent for thy sins. Rom. 5.20. For where sin hath abounded, grace hath overabounded. If you condemn Luther, who will think that you let Paul pass free? For you have the same action against both, sith they be of one and the same judgement. What followeth? All good actions be sins; of God be severe in judgement, they are damnable sins; if he be favourable, they be but small ones, k DUR. The Apostle S. Paul then said not truly; If thou take a wife thou sinnest not. 1 Cor. 7. Then S. Peter said not truly, 2. Pet. 1.10. For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. Neither said Sa●nt john truly, 1. Ioh 3.8. For this purpose the Son of God appeared, that heo might lose the works of the Devil. Neither did S. Paul well to compare good works to silver, gold, and precious stones. 1. Cor. 3.12. Neither did the Prophets and Apostles well to exhort us to good works. And if all our actions (though good) be sin, do not you yourselves sin whilst you believe to be justified by faith? For faith is a work, seeing Christ saith, This is the work of God, that you believe. WHIT. pag. 698. That even our good actions are tainted with some sin, no man can doubt, that either knoweth the Scriptures, or himself. As Isay saith 64.10. Now it even all our righteous actions be like unto a stinking & filthy clout, they are surely tainted with some sin. The Prophet David prayeth Psal. 143.2. Wherefore no work, (though good) can deliver us from the just judgement of God. And this is that which the Apostle Paul speaketh Gal. 5.17. and Rom. 7.21. also Job 9.2. Upon which place Gregory Moral. lib. 9 cap. 1. thus writeth. The holy man because he seethe, that even all the merit of our very virtue is sin, if by an inward judgement it be rightly judged of, doth well add etc. Hear Gregory calleth the merits of our virtue, that is, our very best works, sins. And again the same Gregory cap. 14. As we have often said, all human righteousness is convinced to be unrighteousness, if it be rightly judged of. Now he that calleth our rigeteousnes unrighteousness, what saith he else, then that which Luther said, That there is some sin in every good work? This Paradox therefore Luther learned our of the Scriptures and ancient Fathers. But to come to your slender reasons. If thou take a wife, thou sinnest not. I answer here is a fallacy. For we say not to marry a wise is sin, but that they who marry wives intermix some sin in that good action. And to the place of S. Peter. I say that there you use also a fallacy: for to fall, in that place signifieth to fall away wholly and altogether from grace and salvation. For the place of S. john, we mean not that good works are sins, but that they have some sin mixed with them. For it followeth not that silver is dross, because it hath some dross mingled with it. And Christ came not to the end there should be no sin left in his Saints whilst they live here, but that he might take away the guilt of sin. And what if S. Paul hath compared our good works to silver, gold, or precious stones? Know you not that even in the best metals, and in such stones there may some dross be found? But the Apostle compareth sound doctrine to these things; than which there is nothing more precious if it be kept pure and incorrupted. The Prophets and Apostles do well to exhort us to do good works: but if they bid us do our duty, doth it therefore follow, that we may not commit some sin in doing thereof? Last of all touching your demand concerning faith, you bewray your ignorance; for we are not justified by faith, as it is a work or action of ours, for it is imperfect: but because it is as the hand whereby we lay hold on Christ, and Christ calleth faith a work either by imitation, or because it is the work of the holy Ghost that kindleth it in our hearts. Luther said this, and he said it truly. For in every action of a man, l DUR. Therefore no action can ever be either excellent or good. Well said Dionysius, That that which is good, must n●edes come of a cause perfectly good. WHIT. pag. 701. Is there any so dull, as to say that there is no health not soundness in the body at all, because there is only some thing in the body not so sound as it should be? As for Dionysius, he speaketh of that entire and perfect good which we never attain to in this life. For as long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit, there can be no such entire good in us, proceeding from entire and perfect causes. though never so excellent, there is some fault, which may wholly mar the action, and make it odious to God, if that which is done be weighed in the balance of divine justice. But after that the Lord hath received us wholly to favour in Christ, those things which are but begun in us, & besprinkled with some blots, m DUR. What a monstrous speech is this? Is it possible that even sins should please God? WHIT. pag. 702. Can you put no difference between the corruption of the action, and the action itself? A good father loveth the obedience and duty of his son, which he knoweth nevertheless is not such as it ought to be, and how much more doth God accept the slender and weak endeavours of his children? yet they please him as if they were entire and pure, because he looketh upon our persons, and he doth not make search into the worth and merit of the work. These things spoke Luther and confirmed them by the sentences of sacred Scriptures and holy Fathers: which you could much more easily pass by than confute. Go forward. No man of himself thinketh evil. This is maliciously objected, as are all the rest. God doth throw into no man an evil thought, he compelleth the will of none to sin: yet nothing is done by chance or fortune: and in the very sins of men the providence of God ruleth. Those thoughts of men which are evil, spring out of a certain inbred naughtiness proper to every one: and yet the Lord can apply them to his own will. For so joseph answereth his brethren: Ye thought evil against me, but the Lord turned it to good. Gen. 50.20. Now you add: n DUR. Then why answered Christ the young man in the Gospel with this, keep the Commandments? And how do thieves and adulterer's sin? or how is it a sin now to omit the duties of the moral Law, more than to omit offering up of sacrifices? WHIT. pag. 703. That which Christ answered to the young man Matth. 19.17. may well be said unto you. For you seek righteousness by the Law: wherefore keep the Law if you will enter into life. But here you shall find no way to enter. Luther nor any of us, ever denied that the Law pertaineth unto Christians. For the righteousness of the Law is eternal, and every man ought with all endeavour to frame his life according to the same. But it is one thing to be bound by the Law, and another thing to conform and fr●me our lives by the rule of the Law. Wherefore thieves do sin, and are justly punished; and much more they that establish the ceremonies of Moses Law, which are wholly abrogated. The decalogue belongeth not to Christians. God doth not care for our works. Touching the decalogue and works, this answer I make you briefly. In the law the old covenant is contained; Do this and live: Gal. 3.10. Deut. 27.26 o DUR Moses denounceth not the curse against the breaches of every small precept, but to those only, which he there reckoneth up: which were certainly very heinous sins. WHIT. pag. 708. If that curse be only proper to those, who are guilty of the sins there numbered and set down, what shall we then think of blasphemers, adulterers, and of other horrible malefactors? are they free from this curse? if this be impious and absurd, then must it be understood of all, even as many as do transgress the Law. And so S. Paul interpreteth the place, who undoubtedly understood the meaning of Moses better than all jesuits. For he instructing the Galathians, as concerning the justice of the Law, proveth by this testimony, Gal. 3.10. that none can be justified by the works of the Law, but he that continueth in all things. Either then deny that any la was written touching small offences, or else confess that that curse belongeth to the least offences. If the Apostle had understood it as you do, the Galathians might have answered him, that they were free from those great sins, and so from the curse, and therefore might well hope to be justified by the Law. Finally if Gal. 3.13. Christ hath freed us from the curse of the Law, shall we think that this is only, from the curse due to a few grievous sinners? I hope by this time, you see the error of your interpretation, which you have sucked from your corrupt masters. Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. The law promiseth life to them, which obey the Law in all things: they that offend in any thing, to them it threateneth death and damnation. p DUR. Yet Christ Math. 11.30. saith, My youke is easy and my burden light. And S. john. 1. Epist. 2.4. Ho that saith, I know him and keepeth not his Commandments, is alayr. WHIT. pag. 705. S. joh. 1. Epist. 5.3.4. expoundeth the speech of Christ, His Commandments are not grievous: For all that is borne of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. This yoke then to those who have faith seemeth not grievous, because they are inflamed with the love of God's Law, neither fear they the curse of it because they are engrafted by faith into Christians for the place of S. john, I answer; they are said to keep the Commandments, who do their best enendevour to keep them. If any do think that he so keepeth them, that he is without all sin, that is, that he perfectly keepeth them, S. john calleth him a liar, 1. joh. 1.8. An hard condition, and which no man can ever satisfy. Christ doth propose to us another condition much easier: Mar. 16.16. Believe and thou shalt be saved. By this new Covenant the old q DUR. If it be abrogated, how are we not freed from the obedience of it? If God require only that you believe; then by believing you fulfil the Law, and so have not only an imputed, but an inherent righteousness. WHIT. pag. 614. I say not, that the Law is simply abolished, but in some respect. Therefore it will not follow that we are freed from the obedience of it. Again, we say not, that faith fulfilleth the Law, as if it did perform perfect obedience to it, but because it layeth hold on Christ, who is the end and perfection of the Law, and on his righteousness. Therefore is it not an inherent, but an imputative justice. is abrogated; so as whosoever believeth the Gospel, is freed from the condition of the Law. Gal. 5.18. Rom. 6.14. For they that r DUR. Christ saith not as you writ, but He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, Now they who are baptized, have received from God a good will to keep the whole Law, which they determine afterwards by the grace of Christ to observe. WHIT. pag. 715. The words of Christ confirm as ●●ch as I brought them for. For Baptism is not a work of the Law, but a wale of faith. And Christ showeth that our salvation consisteth only in faith. And though the baptized frame theirlives according to the rule of the Law, and are endued with new wills and new strength, yet they do it not with that mind to justify themselves by their obedience before the Lord. Then should they lose the righteousness of faith, which doth not consist in our merits and good works, but is such as the Apostle describeth Rom. 4.5. believe are not under the Law, but under grace. What needs many words? s DUR. This is your new Divinity, that we should be freed from the curse of the Law, which we cannot fully obey, when as Christ at the last shall pronounce the curse against those who have not obered And Christ (as S. Paul saith) hath freed us from the curse, because by his death be ●ath deserved grace for us, whereby we may keep the Law. WHIT. pag. 713. This is your ignorance in Divinity. For who is ignorant of that, which the Apostle affirmeth plainly, Gal. 3.13. that Christ hath freed us from the curse of the Law? Though then we cannot fully keep the Law, yet being engrafted into Christ, and he communicating his righteousness unto us, we escape the curse of the Law. At the last day it is no marvel if Christ pronounce the curse of the Law against the reprobates, who never were freed from the cursle. And if Christ by his death brought us grace to keep the Law, why might not the Galathians have kept the Law, and obtained righteousness by it? But the Apostle showeth them, that Christ took the cursle, because he took both the sin and the punishment upon him, & not that thereby he procured them grace to fulfil the Law. Christians are delivered from the curse of the law, but not from the obedience of it. As for our works, surely God regardeth them: and if they be good, he rewardeth them: if contrary, he judgeth them worthy of punishment: t DUR. In those who are justified, God much respecteth their works, as in Abraham jam 2.21. and 1. joh. 3.7. And in Phinehas, Psal. 106.31. his work imputed for righteousness. WHIT. pag. 716. To the places of Saint james and Saint john you have been answered before. The fact of Phin●ha● proceeded from faith, and so the praise of it to be given to faith, not to the work. If you accounted of Th●mas, as you make show of, your judgement would be sounder in these things. For thus he writeth on Galat. 3. Works are not the cause that any one is just before God. but they are affects and manifestations of righteousness. Neither Luther, not any of us say any more. but in justifying of us, God hath no respect to our works: u DUR. The Prophet saith not that a man is just, because be beleeneth, but that be who is just, doth live by his faith, that is, doth uphold himself by his faith, and sainteth not. It is as absurd to be just by another man's justice, as to live by another man's life. WHIT. pag. 716. I could admit of your exposition, but that I am persuaded the Apostle understood the Prophers' mind beaver than you. For the Apostle hath used it to prove, that we are justified by faith, and not by the works of the Law: no not by those which are wrought after faith; for thus he reasoneth, Gal. 3.11. That 〈◊〉 man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident, for the just shall live by faith. And the Law is not of faith. What hath he concluded but that you demi? that is, that the Prophet hath said, that a man is justified, because he believeth. So Chrysast in Gal. 3. showeth that saith justifieth by the testi●●●nie of the Prophet Abakuk. Which if it were not, what concerneth it the Galathians, who were endued with faith, and joined their works with their faith. If it be absurd to be just by another man's righteousness, I pray you tell me, how the Scripture calleth Christ both the curse and sin? As for us we had rather be absurd with the holy Ghost, then wise with you. for the just shall live, not by his works, but by his faith. Now go on. * DUR. Then where is your faith which assureth you of the remission of your sins, and quiteth all your troubled thoughts? But holy men diligently prepared themselves, and so came to this Sacrament. having quiet minds, free from guilt of sin. And in the Primitive times they who had fallen, were not admitted to the Eucharist, but after confession & full satisfaction made for their sins. And then a Deacon was wont to cry. Holy things are for holy men. WHIT. pag. 718. You have not tasted what true faith is, if you think all sorrows & doubts are removed, so soon as faith is begotten. The Prophet often remembreth his sorrows, Psal. 42.5.6. & 32.4. And this all the faithful have experience of, and yet are upheld by their faith. They are the best prepared who have the greatest sorrows for their sins, and in the word and Sacrament seek a salve for them. For wherefore was the supper ordained, but to strengthen and confirm our faith. Therefore the best prepared have many temptations and sorrows in themselves. The custom of the Church proveth nothing against this. For will you account them wicked and profane, whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrows for their sins? So shall you wickedly condemn the most holy servants of God. Only they do rightly receive the Lord's Supper, who bring sorrowful, afflicted, & confounded consciences. And so it is indeed, for they are no right receivers, who trusting to their own merits come audaciously, but they who being opprested with the greatues of their sins, Psal. 51.19. do desire to be eased. For they which are whole desire not the Physician. A contrite and broken heart is an acceptable sacrifice to God. wherefore they which have greatest feeling of their sins and sorrow for them, to them that heavenly food is wont to be most wholesome. Good Lord, who would ever think it might come to pass, that any Christian should dislike these things! But is there any thing else? x DUR. Who knoweth not that the Novatians were condemned of the whole Church for denying this authority to the Priests? And that it was an old custom of the Church, as Tertullian hath it, that penitentials were sent to none but to the Priests: to whom, as Ambrole, Hierome, & Chrysostome writ, the keys and power of binding and losing are committed. WHIT. pag. 720. That you speak of the Novatians and the custom of the Church toucheth not Luther, for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church: did Luther ever any such thing? or did he ever reprove the custom of the Church, that they who had offended publicly, did publicly testive their repentance. It was a private auricular confession of all sins which he reproved, which is without testimony either of Scripture of sincere Antiquity: which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon. For the Fathers by which you would establish your keys, we have against them Augustine in joan. tract. 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18. You may confess you sins, but to any body, y DUR. What is then more manifest than that he may give a Sacrament which never intended 〈◊〉? We believe that Priests as judges can absolve the guilty from their sins. WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth upon no man's will, and faith bringeth remission of sins, another man's will cannot hinder, but that they who believe, may have the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion, Mat. 8.13. is to eu●ry man▪ As thou believest, so b●●t ●●to thee, & not as another wil If absolution were then in the Ministers will, it should not be as men believe, but as their Minister thinketh: than which nothing can be more absurd. What skilleth it, whether the Minister be in ●est or earnest? if I believe seriously his jest shall not hurt me. And what is more mi●erable, then to ba●g the dignity of the Sacrament upon the thought and intention of the Minister? which if it were true of Sacraments, yet what is that to absolution, which never was a Sacrament? whereas you say you believe that the Priest's do absolve men, as judges do, I do not find fault with it. And such ●u●ges are they, as Priests under the Law were of diseases. The chief Pr●●st judged of the Leprosy, which he neither inflicted nor cured. So the Minister doth pronounce and judge all believers to be absolved, and the contrary upon the wicked and unbelievers. who if he do absolve you but in jest, so as you believe, you are absolved. And why not? for it is not need full, either to number sins by our fingers, or to use a Priest or a Friar, such a one as yourself. jam. 1.16. 1. joh. 1.9. We may confess our faults one to another, so as Friars may be idle hereafter. And whosoever believeth that his sins are forgiven him, him saith itself absolveth, whether he be absolved in jest or in earnest. Well, make haste. To read prayers by the hour, belongeth not to Priests, but to lay men. What your Priests do, or what they think they ought to do, it concerns me not. Let them read, let them pray, let them say Mass, let them drink, let them play, and in a word, let them be always like themselves. It behoveth a Minister of the Gospel not to recite certain Collects by an hourglass, and to make his walk in them certain spaces of hours, but to give daily diligence unto reading, 1. Tim. 4.13 exhortation, and doctrine; which things your Priests have ever thought to be far different from their office. But these same prayers by the hour albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests, who unless they should spend the time on this fashion, would never go out of Stews and Taverns, yet are they unworthy of a Christian man, because of their infinite z DUR. Is it superstition to sing Psalms unto God, to pray for remission of sins, and other temporal and spiritual graces, and to perform other exercises of religion? who knoweth not, that Christians had their night Psalms? that the Hymns of Ambrose were at set times. In the Acts we read, that Peter and john went into the Temple at the ninth hour of prayer. WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproved not as superstitious and impious, but that all the time, which should be bestowed in instructing the people, should be spent in saying their daily appointed hours, specially in that tongue which not the people, and often times not the Priest himself doth understand. No man is ignorant that Christians had their night hours, but it was because they might not assemble themselves in the day time: will you keep this custom, and not be accounted superstitious? The Hymns of Ambrose are full of piety, and far from superstitious chanting As for the Apostles, they went not up to sacrifice nor to keep Canonical hours, but to instruct the people who came thither to the evening sacrifice in great multitudes. superstition. Let us hear the rest. Christians are free from the laws of men. That never came into Luther's mind, to pluck in pieces the authority of the Magistrates, which he did always defend most diligently against the Anabaptists. a DUR. It they be bound to obey, how are their consciences free from the religion of them? If was a human la, Act. 15.20. touching, strangled and blood. And Rom. 13.2.5. and 1. Pet. 2.13.13. WHIT. pag. 730. To the first I answer, that some things may be done, whereunto we are not bound in conscience: we must ●bey human and politic laws, because they are necessary for peace and public tranquillity. Yet we must distinguish human laws from Divine. For the Laws of God must simply be obeyed without any difference of time, place and circumstance: but the laws of men as he circumstances require. For example, he that is a Roman and liveth at Rome must obey the Roman laws? If he go into Persia, he is not bound to keep there the Roman lawea upon any necessity. Then they bind not the conscience, for than should they in all places bind alike. 2. That Law of the Apostles did not simply bind the conscience, but in respect of the weak brother lest he should be offended: whom the la of God bindeth not to offend. Again this was the law, not of men, but of the spirit of God. 3. For the places of S. Paul and S. Peter, I answer, the Apostles doth not ensnare the conscience with every particular precept of the Magistrate, but they speak of his authority, which is sacred and holy, and cannot with any good conscience be contemned. It is the commandment of God, that we obey Magistrates, and this doth bind the conscience: in general therefore he is to be obeyed for conscience sake; but his particular laws do not bind the conscience. Again, when we observe their particular laws, we do not so stand upon the precepts, as if doing of them would quiet the conscience and satisfy it: but we look to the end, that is, the will of God, which commandeth obedience to honest and just laws. Christians are free, not that they may obey no laws, and live only to themselves, but that they may understand that their consciences and minds are freed from making the laws of men to be religion. The Pope of Rome hath bound the consciences of Christian men with his Decrees and Canons, and thereby hath laid such a snare upon their minds, as that they might think they are no less bound by the Pope's Canons, then by Christ's precepts. Therefore Luther freeth Christian liberty from those evil opinions wherein it had been enfolded, and bringeth it into that state in which Christ would have it to be, that we should acknowledge him only to be the Lord of our conscience, and that we should obey the laws of men with a free conscience. We are now at length come to the bottom of this puddle, which although you have stirred with all your diligence, yet you have not found so much as one paradox, or a piece of a paradox of ours. But now if I would but a little make search into the most filthy puddles of your writers, as to reckon up what they have affirmed, of God, of the Providence of God, of Predestination, of the Person and Offices of Christ, of Original sin, of the Law, of Righteousness, of the Sacraments, of Purgatory, of the Pope of Rome, and of the rest of the greatest controversies in Religion, how many Carts should I fill with paradoxes, horrible to be spoken, or thought? But it is better not at this time to stir this common Sewer: and otherwhere (I hope) occasion will be given to speak hereof. Now in that you would join the Lutherans and Zwinglians together, therein surely you have not offended us, for we both reverence Luther as a father, and we embrace them as very dear brethren in Christ. And verily we hope it will come to pass, that this controversy, which is between us being compounded, we shall all with joint minds and studies set upon the common enemy. As for that you say touching yourself, I am easily persuaded to think it to be true, whether it be that you speak it heartily or sainedly. For what (I beseech you) have you alleged, for which we should not rather think you to be some Rhetorical Actor upon a Stage, than a learned and experienced Divine? Campian, if you be wise, be quiet, for (believe me) you cannot endure the force and violence of this combat. Let those choice and old soldiers put themselves into the camp, who are, if not more bold to provoke, yet more wary to avoid blows, and much more skilful in all discipline of war. To enter combat with these, both the Universities have many worthy men, and I trust there will never want excellent Divines to wage perpetual war with the broken bands of Antichrist. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The ninth Reason, which is the adversaries Sophisms. IT is an ancient Proverb, that a purblind man may be a King amongst the blind. Amongst the ignorant sort of people many times a coloured argument taketh place, the which the Philosopher's school doth hiss at. The * This is false: you can produce none of our sophisms: and those you speak of are yours, not ours Adversary herein much offendeth, but namely in four kinds of fallaces he is well practised, which I had rather disclose in the University schools, then in the common streets, whither only rude people do resort. The first fault is called Schiamachia, Schiamachia. which is a forcible striking of the air, and beating of shadows on this sort, against those that are single and have * Those oaths and vows are taken and made against the scriptures. sworn and solemnly vowed to live in Chastity, because Marriage is good, but Virginity is better. They bring scriptures that speak very * Marriage is honourable in all conditions of men, therefore in Ministers. honourably of Matrimony: 1. Cor. 7. Whom do they pierce with their darts? Against the * All he can do are his duties, therefore there can be no merits. merits of a Christian man dipped in Christ's blood, without the which there is no merit at all. They recite testimonies, which command us to put our affiance neither in nature nor in the law, but in the blood of Christ; whom do they confute? Against those that honour Saints, as the most acceptable servants of Christ, there are vouched whole pages of scripture, which prohibit the * They who worship many Saints, worship many Gods. Papists worship many Saints ergo. worshipping of many gods? Such Arguments as these, which I see swarm amongst the Adversaries, cannot hurt us, well may they be loathsome unto you. The second fault is Logomachia, Logomachia. which is a leaning of the matter itself, and contentiously to strive about a bare word. Find if thou canst (say they) this word Missa, 1. Mass, or Purgatorium. 1. Purgatory in the scripture. What if I cannot? Is there not a * A most foolish and unjust comparison. Trinity, a consubstantiality, or the person of God to be proved out of the Bible, because these words Trinitas 1. a trinity, Homoousios, 1. of the same substance, Persona, 1. a person be not there found? Of great alliance to this fault is Literarum aucupium, when neglecting the common usage and true meaning of the speakers, which is the very life of the word, they cavil against the bare letters. For thus they argue: Presbyter 1. a Priest, is nothing else in Greek but Senior, 1. an Elder. Sacramentum 1. a Sacrament, signifieth all kind of mystery. But S. Thomas herein as in all other matters saith most wisely, that in words we must mark not so much from whence, as to what purpose they are spoken. The third fault is Homonymia, Homonymia. which they most commonly use, as when they say to what purpose was the order of * Hear is no Homonymy, for there are now no Priests in a Christian Church. Priesthood instituted, seeing that S. john hath called us all Priests? Esay. 48. So hath he also added this, We are all Kings and shall reign upon the earth. Wherefore then were Kings ordained? Again, they say, the Prophet biddeth us observe a spiritual feast, that is, that we should refrain from our old sins: Farewell all * Campian placeth fasting in the choice of meats, and observation of days, which in mere judaisme. change of meats, and prescript times of fasting. Is the matter so indeed? Then Moses, David, Helias, S. john Baptist, and the Apostles were stark fools, who ended their fasting from usual food after two days, three days, and certain weeks, whereas their fast from sin should have endured so long as they lived. What this fallacy is you have now seen, I hast forward. The fourth fault added to this, Circulatio. is Circulatio, a going about the bush in this manner: Tell me (I say to one of them) the true marks of the Church. He answereth the word of God, and the purest ministering of the Sacraments. Are these marks to be found amongst you, say I? who doubteth of that, saith he? I utterly deny it. Then quoth he peruse the word of God. I * If you had consulted with the word of God, you should easily have perceived that it was so: but you consult with the Church of Rome and not with the word. have already perused it, and I think worse of your side then I did before. Tush, saith he for all that the matter is most plain; prove me that, say I: because (saith he) we serve not a finger breadth from the word of God. Where is thy sharp wit thou braggest of? Wilt thou still for thy proof infer that which is in controversy? How often have I blamed thee for this. Wilt thou not awake out of thy dreams. Must thou have a torch lighted that thou mayst see to speak? I tell thee once again, that thou dost maliciously misconstrue the word of God. I have for my witnesses fifteen hundred years. Stand to the judgement, neither thine nor mine, but of these 1500. years. I will stand, saith he, to the judgement of the word of God. Job. 3. The spirit doth breath where he listeth. Behold what roundabouts he fetcheth, what round rings he treadeth. I know not to whom this jester and coiner of so many waste words and foolish fallaces may be a terror; troublesome peradventure he will be: may it please your wisdoms to tolerate his troublesomeness; as for the fear, the cause itself hath already quite taken away. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the ninth Reason, which is the adversaries Sophisms. IT is a goodly thing that Sophisters complain of fallacies, and that you, who yourselves are altogether compact of fraud, lies, and impostures, do upbraid us with Sophistry. All your Divinity, which ought to be honest and sincere without deceit and fraud, hath of late degenerated into a subtle sleight of disputing like Schoolboys and Sophisters: for after that you had abandoned true Divinity out of the Churches, and as it were exiled the light from men's eyes, than you began at last to put forth curious questions in the Schools; and so, as poor blind men, to be admired of those who saw nothing. Hence arose that innumerable army of Sophisters, who confounded themselves with their refined idle disputes, as with mutual wounds, in so much as who so could best skill of counterfeit and captious trifling conclusions, he should be reputed as some King or petty God over those blind and squinteyed smatterers in Divinity. And this hope of domineering amongst so many blind ones hath egged on you jesuits thus diligently to dwell upon this craft, and to put down all the ancient Sophisters for deceit and fraud, yourselves being yet but upstarts: For if there were ever any kingdom of purblind men over the stark blind, questionless it is now wholly descended unto you, to whom the ancienter orders of Monks and Friars do willingly yield the garland, because they think▪ you see something. Play your prizes now you noble Sophisters, and execute with all diligence the Sophistical dominion which you have gotten, lest some hereafter happily sleely dispossess you of this honour: for shortly some one or other new family and sect of Sophisters will gather strength, which (if you look not well about you) will at last shoulder and shuffle you violently out of place, and enter upon this sovereignty over the school of Sophistry, which now for some years you have possessed. For out of doubt, kingdoms themselves entitled upon petty sleights and deceitful conveyances of words, cannot long continue. Seeing therefore this your whole show of new learning consists in furbushing up of untruths, and refining the former Sophistry, verily I make no question, but as it is of yesterdays building, so it will shortly fall to ruin. But for as much as you mention certain Sophisms as ours, and persuade your favourites that we use very much sophistry; before I answer to these your falsehoods which you lay to our charge, I will give the reader a taste of your own most notorious false-grounded a DUR. Our Ancestors, otherwise most wise men, having not always to deal with wilful spirits, did not strictly stand upon exact form of teaching. WHIT. pag. 734. The cause is the more desperate when such wise men could find no better arguments to maintain it, but such as even yourself confess to be but weak: and both their hearers were then too credulous to believe, and you are now ridiculous to defend such lose arguments. disputations, and deceitful Elenches; that so, Puralogismis & Elenchis. whether you or we be more truly to be termed Sophisters, the School and University itself may determine betwixt us, where you desire rather these things should be discussed, then amongst the vulgar. I for my part do appeal unto this school of Philosophers, and University of Divines; and I earnestly beseech all men who have understanding in the principles either of Divinity or Logic, and as many as ever tasted of any School-learning, that they will heedfully observe how current these your conclusions be, and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation. And indeed to choose, I will there begin, where you yourself have made an entrance. We maintain, that it is lawful for Ministers of the Gospel, and for Deacons, to be married. You scorn the arguments whereby we make it good. Wherefore let us consider what goodly stuff is brought on your side for the contrary. Pope Innocent, the second of that name, Distinct. 82 Proposuisti. Rom. 8.8. thus concludeth (you must suppose) by divine inspiration against these marriages: They which are in b DUR. Pope Innocent spoke of Priests, who had vowed single life of their own accord, but afterwards yielded to lust. WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spoke that of all Deacons and Priests, for he saith further (Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti) It is not lawful to admit them to holy offices, which use carnal company ●ith their wives, because it is written, ●●e ye holy, for 〈◊〉 the Lord your God am holy: for than he esteemed marriage duty to be an unholy thing in itself; not in respect of their vow, of which he speaketh not a word. the flesh cannot please God: Tit. 1.15. Unto the pure, all things are pure, but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving, is nothing pure. Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy. And because S. Paul permitteth married people (by consent) to sleep apart for a season, to the end they may more conveniently give themselves to fasting & prayer; Distinct. 31. Tenere. here hence the Pope gathereth, that this is much more c DUR. This argument is good and can have no show of error. For, above all men, a Priest must be chaste, saith Origen, Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Jerome and Ambrose, and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you er●e and mistake S. Paul in theree things: 1. What he wrote to all Christians, you expound of Lay-men only. 2. He speaketh only of extraordinary fasts & prayer, but you apply it unto all sorts thereof. That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinary, appears, 1. Because he hath joined fasting with them, 1. Cor. 7.5.2. Because Christ and his Apostle have commanded all to pray continually, and so all aught to l●ue a single life. 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men, you childishly would prove a perpetual single life to be necessary for Ministers. You abuse also Origens' words, (& play the heretic) as if chastity were contrary to matrimony; whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Council, consented to Paphnutius, who said openly, that society with a lawful wi●e, is chastity: Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony, seeking victory more than verity, as himself confessed. Ambr●se and Epiphanius dissuaded Ministers only from second marriage's, allowing their fi●st. to be done of Priests, whose office is to pray always, & to offer that daily sacrifice. Distinct. 28 Decernimus Last of all, seeing they must be a temple of the Lord, and an oratory of the spirit, d DUR. Tertullian used this same argument against second marriage. WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus, (as all the learned know) condemning second marriages, of uncleanness, not only in Ministers, but in all Christians: yet he himself being a Priest, was married, and lived with his wife, continuing his Ministry: so that he neither judged marriage to be uncleaneness, nor unlawful in Ministers, simply; but only second marriages. they ought not to abase themselves with bed-pleasures & uncleannesses. Now out of all these he concludeth that which he propounded, that Deacons and Priests are flatly forbidden to marry. Harding and Dorman and others. If these things be absurdly disputed, let us hear others. Several Pastors have rule over several flocks: c DUR. The Pope challengeth no Lordship over the Churches, but professeth himself the severuant of God's servants. WHIT. pag. 740. But his dee●s bewray his tyranny: for he prescribeth, commandeth, threateneth, punisheth, and doth whatsoever any Lord can do. DUR. You can dispro●e this consequent by no argument. WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument, like these; Every several man hath one head; therefore all men must have one head: Every several flock hath his shepherd; therefore all flocks must have one to rule them. Again: no one man can possibly teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithful Pastor should, and may do in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed all particular Churches, which can never be made one visible body, and therefore can have none but Christ the general head and Pastor over them. DUR. Jerome, Cyprian, and Ireneus, have written the same we do. WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them. First, Jerome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church, not as a matter of accessitie, but of conveniency, to prevent schisms: and saith, that the Church is founded upon all the Apostles alike, and that every one equally hath received the keys of the kingdom of heaven; even in that place where you quote him: (against jovinian, lib. 1.) Secondly, Cyprian concludeth only, that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and never thought upon the Pope's primacy; but saith plainly, that every particular Bishop hath all whatsoever any one hath by right; in the same book which you allege, of the Church's unity. Lastly, Ireneus called the Roman, the chief Church, not for any superiority, but because she excelled all others in constancy, largeness, fame, and soundness of faith. therefore the Pope ought to have dominion over all Churches. Christ said to Peter feed my sheep; f DUR. It is manifest by this place, that Christ gave greater authority of feeding to Peter, than to the other Apostles, and so made him head of all his Church. WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow upon this place, that Peter had greater authority to feed, or that he only must feed all: for he said to them all alike, Matth. 28.19. Go ye, teach all nations: and job. 20 21. As the Father sent me, so I send you: Therefore he spoke so often then to Peter, to confirm him after his grievous fall, that he might not doubt of his Apostolical calling, as saith Augustine's treatise on john 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope. therefore Peter is the chief & principal Pastor of the Church. The Lord made two great lights, the Sun, g DUR. The Pope useth this as a similitude to amplify, not as an argument to prove by authority. WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift; a similitude is an argument, and Johannes Andraeas would prove hereby, that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignity, seventy times seven degrees. & the Moon: therefore the Pope excelleth the Emperor in honour and greatness. Hear are two swords; therefore the h DUR. We gather nothing hence, but what Bernard did: saying, This sword (of temporal power) is thine also, happily at thy command, though not to be drawn with thy hand: speaking to the Pope. WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophism, bu● yet he fathereth it upon Bernard, which also johannes a Capistrano (of the Pope and Counsels, p 77.) and others of them have handled▪ and Pope Boniniface girt himself with a sword in sign hereof: but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power. Pope must bear both swords. The servant is not above his master: therefore i DUR. What Catholic ever taught, or wrote thus? howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Council said. The chief seat is judged of no man. WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholic who saith (Dist. 40. si P●pa) The Pope may be reproved of no mortal man, though he lead with him innumerable people unto hell. And who knoweth not these two pillars of Popery; the Church of Rome cannot err, whatsoever it teacheth: and the Pope may not be accused whatsoever ●e doth? The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synod spoke to Marcellinus the Pope, who had denied Christ, and committed Idolatry, and might be accused by the Pope's own laws, so that in citing that authority, you contradict both yourself and your laws. it is lawful for no man to accuse or reprove the Pope. Christ prayed that Peter's faith should not fail him: k DUR. Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth, and by his prayer obtained that his Vicar's faith might not fail; by force whereof the Pope cannot err: as Augustine and Cyprian also perceived. WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar, nor doth it follow; Peter's faith failed not, therefore no Pope's faith hath failed, who are his successors: for Popes have done, and may fall into heresies, as you will confess; and may err in faith, saith Pope Boniface (D●st 40. Papa:) which he could not do it this argument of yours were true. Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles, and the whole Church: shall we say Christ's prayer was less effectual for the rest then for Peter? If it be not, than none of their successors could err no more than Peter's: which I suppose you will not affirm. And Augustine, and Cyprian never reasoned as you do; you abuse their names. therefore the Pope cannot err. The vulgar people cometh seldom and negligently to the Lords Supper: l DUR. If you believed the Prophet Malachi, or the Mass, you would confess this argument to be good. WHIT pag. 753. You can never prove your Mass by the Prophet Malachi, who speaketh of the prayers of the godly, as Tertullian, Eusebius, and Jerome expound him: and if the Mass were a sacrifice indeed, (as you call it) the people's negligence, is no sufficient cause to make it private, and yet to profit the people, yea though they be absent: you may aswell abuse the Word itself so; and say it is enough, when it is in public, it the Priest handle it and hear it, and believe it alone, yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing, may be saved by it. therefore the Priest may celebrate private Mass. Christ admitted only his Apostles to Sup: therefore Priests alone must m DUR. The people also receive the whole Sacrament, under one kind. WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so; as though one part of a thing, were the whole; or, as if Christ appointing both bread and wine, ordained more than a whole Sacrament: that Pope was wiser, which said of certain heretics that refrained from the Cup, as you do●, (De council. dist. 2. cap. Comperimus:) Let them either receive the whole Sacrament, or refuse all. DUR. Christ's words, Drink ye all of this, prove n●t that all Christians must do so. WHIT. pag. 755. They do prove it, as those words, take eat, do prove that all must eat: and you may as well keep both the elements from the people, as one, contrary to S. Paul, 1. Cor. 11.23. DUR. The Passeover might be eaten without wine. WHIT. pag. 756. It might, because God had not commanded wine, but Christ himself commandeth it in his Supper, 1. Cor. 11.45. DUR. The common people are a●t bound to drink of the Cap: for S. Paul saith, As oft as ye drink it, to signify they were not commanded so to do. WHIT. So he saith of the bread also, As of, as ye eat, 1. Cor. 11.26. so that, by your argument, neither is the bread commanded them. receive the Sacrament; the people ought to be contented only with one part. The title which Pilate fastened upon the Cross, was written in Hebrew, Greek, & Latin: therefore n DUR. No Catholic doth so reason; we say, that title had in it a mystery: and Augustine proveth by it, that the word, coessential, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, may be used in the Creed. WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus, as all men know which read their writings, though you be ashamed of it. Tell us what mystery you mean, if it be worth the labour; as for Augustine, he speaks no word that makes here for your cause, yet you blush not to quote him. prayers must be read in the Churches in no language, but either Hebrew, or Greek, or Latin. Harding. That which is holy must not be given to dogs: o DUR. We say not, that all, but that some of the people may not have the Scriptures committed to them. WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that wisdom is to be used in teaching the people; and that they which show themselves dogs, and hogs, must be barred from the Scriptures: but this is nothing to the present question; whether this reason be good, which Papists sometimes use: and which here you should have spoken to, and not thus wander. therefore the vulgar people must be forbidden to read the Scriptures. This is my body: therefore the p DUR. Christ said it way his body. WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an usual phrase of Scripture, called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified, because of the sacramental joint receiving of both, to wit, of the bread with the mouth, and of his body by faith. Again, if that which was in Christ's hands were his real body, when he said so, then was transubstantiation before (which you deny) and then he had two bodies: but if it were bread, then is there a metonymy in his words, as we truly say. bread is turned into Christ's body. Fall down before his footstool: q DUR. Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture. WHIT p. 761. That is false: they teach only, that we must worship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament; not the mysteries and Sacrament themselves. therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped. God is no respecter of persons: Pighius. r DUR. That was Pighius his error: but the judgement of Catholic Universities is, that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination. WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in words, but indeed many of your Schools defend him: saying, the kingdom of heaven is prepared for them which have merited it by their good works. therefore he chooseth no man to life eternal, but with respect of merits. S. james commandeth that sick persons should be anointed: s DUR. The sick want health now as well as then, and therefore must now have the same helping remedy. WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a sign of healing in those times of extraordinary gifts in the Church; your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health; and so is frivolous. therefore we must now ever and anon anoint the sick. This is a great mystery: t DUR. The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte. WHIT. pag. 764. Nay, he himself expounds it of the mystical union between Christ and the Church. therefore Matrimony is a Sacrament. Elias and john Baptist lived in the wilderness: u DUR. These men left a famous example of Monkish life. WHIT. pag. 765. The Monks life is not proved by their examples: for Elias was commanded to go into the desert during peril; they do that without both precept and peril: John Baptist indeed lived in the desert, but wherein men did dwell, to whom also he preached; and there were many cities and towns in that desert, Josh. 15.61. what is this to idle Monkish life? therefore they invented the manner of life and discipline of Monks. There are seven deadly sins: x DUR. Name him that thus disputeth. WHIT. pag. 766. It is john L●d●wicke, in a book entitled. The golden work of true contrition, leaf 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church, etc. therefore there are just seven Sacraments. God made man after his image: y DUR. Pope Adrian proveth not the use of images by this place, but saith it was signified by it. WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confess he allegeth that Scripture to prove the use of images was signified by it, and who but a superstitious doctor, would have done so? therefore images must be set up in Churches. The chiefest of these is charity: z DUR. The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest virtue. WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things prefer charity before faith, but only because it endureth in the life to come, when we shall not need faith, as Chrysostome expounds it: now faith only apprehends Christ our righteousness, and therein excelleth charity. Lastly, you err grossly in effect, ascribing our justification to the merit of virtue in us; which only is merited by jesus Christ. therefore we are justified more by charity than by faith. I will go, Osea. 5.15. saith the Lord, to my place, until they ponder in their heart, and seek my face: (which indeed he spoke a DUR. Do you think that God calleth men to repentace ironically. WHIT. pag. 799. No; but when men will not se●k God, being called thereto by his bounty; no marvel though he withdraw it from them, and (as it were) laugh at their madness: of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures. ironically, and after the manner of men) therefore men may be converted unto the Lord, by their own mere will and disposition. The Lord commandeth us to do many things: b DUR. Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thin●s. WHIT. pag. 770. He expoundeth his own meaning, that Adam before his fall could, and that we in heaven shall be able to keep all God's commandments; but he often saith, that no man in this life can fulfil the Law of God. DUR. Men use not to make laws impossible to be kept. WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by man's: Again, when these laws were first given, man could perform them, and we must not look that God should alter them to fit our corruption. DUR▪ God could not justly punish lawbreakers, if they could not keep it. WHIT. pag. 771. Answer then Eusebius, (evangelical demonst. lib. 1) who saith, that Moses Law was impossible to be kept of any man: And Thomas Aquinas, upon Gal. 3. sect. 4. saying: Moses commanded many things, which no man could fulfil. therefore those things may be performed of us. Christ descended to the dead: therefore he delivered c DUR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bell, but to deliver the Fathers from Limbus? WHIT. pag. 772. Nay, first prove you that he did go so to hell, as you think; for my part I believe it not, but that his soul went presently to heaven. Again, you beg the question, saying, he went to hell to deliver the Fathers. DUR. I prove it by these Scriptures: Zac. 9.11. Psal 68.18. Heb. 9.8. WHIT. zachary speaketh only of the jews delivery from the captivity of Babylon. David speaketh of Christ's ascending into heaven, and triumph over his enemies; and you childishly infer hereupon, therefore he descended to hell to deliver the patriarchs from Limbus: but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrews, the true sense whereof is; that we are not reconciled to God, by the jewish sacrifices, but by Christ; therefore you infer, that none of the patriarchs went to heaven, until Christ came out of hell, and opened heaven by his bodily ascension. the Fathers out of Limbus. The Church discerneth the Scriptures: d DUR. Catholics say not so. WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so; for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth: and constraineth all Christians to rest therein, be it never so false, and contrary to the Scriptures; else it doth condemn him for an heretic. therefore the authority of the Church is greater than the authority of the Scriptures. Saint Paul commandeth the Thessalonians, 2. Thess. 2.15 that they keep the ordinances which they had learned: therefore e DUR. What error find you in this argument? WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent: first you cannot prove hence; that the things which S. Paul spoke by word, were not the same in effect which he wrote to them: secondly, if he wrote not all to them which he had taught them, it followeth not that he taught something which is not written in the Scriptures: thirdly; admit many things were left unwritten, yet it followeth not, that all things necessary to salvation be not written: nor do the ancient Fathers say so. all things are not written which are necessary to salvation. 2. Cor. 3, 15. He himself shall be safe, yet as it were through fire: f DUR. Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire. WHIT. pag. 776. But the place itself showeth that it cannot be meant of any such fire: for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault: but in your Purgatory faults are not consumed, but (you say) punishments are saffred for f●u●●s. 2. S. Paul saith every man's work, be it gold or wood, shall be tried; but you cast nothing but wood, hay, and stubble into your feigned Purgatory. 3. S. Paul saith every man's work shall be manifest by this fire; but your Purgatory fire is obscure, and never showeth such light. 4. The word fire, is used by S. Paul Metaphorically, as also are gold, silver, hay, wood etc. but you say your Purgatory fire, is true fire. The fire which S. Paul heer● meaneth, is the holy Ghost, who proveth all doctrines, and severeth the false from the true. Ambrose on Psal. 118. saith, This fire is the word of Christ: Angustine indeed spoke doubtfully of Purgatory, saying, (Enchiridion, cap. 69.) it may be that there is some such thing, but whether yea or no, it is a question; and in his book of the City of God; he saith, perhaps it is true: many others of the Fathers thought this purging should be at Christ's coming to judgement; which much differeth from your Purgatory. Chrysostome in his Preface on Esay, saith; God at one instant abolisheth sin, freeth from punishment, and giveth righteousness; Tertullian in his book of Baptism, saith: Gild and punishment are taken away together. Hierome saith, upon the 31. Psalm; the sin which is covered is not seen; that which is not seen is not imputed; that which is not imputed shall not be punished: so that nothing is left for your Purgatory, by these men's judgements. therefore men pass thorough the fire of Purgatory to life eternal. To what purpose should I rehearse innumerable others your disputations like these? Now, Campian, let us hear a few of your own. Augustine wrote three books of free will: therefore Augustine approved that man hath free will. Christ was ignorant of some thing: therefore Christ was not without sin. The Fathers diligently searched the Scriptures: therefore it is never lawful to dissent from the Fathers. These your argumentations I have thus briefly collected: which what goodly ones they be, our University students easily perceive. Do you acknowledge them to be your own, Campian, so sophistical, so inconsequent, so full of deceit and falsehoods? You were in a great strait if you could not deny it; but if you confess it, you are quite overthrown: for all these are very unlearnedly concluded; either by mistaking words of double signification; or by wresting phrases figuratively spoken: or without any consequent; or from ignorance of the Elenche; or (to conclude) altogethe trifling. It sufficeth that I have touched these but lightly: now I come to those which you object against us. There be four chief heads of deceitful disputing, Sciamachia. wherein you say our sophistry chiefly consisteth: to wit, Sciamachia, a fight with a shadow, Logomachia, a contention about words. Homonymia, a mistaking of the sense of words: and Circulatio, a going about the bush. Let us see how grossly we use to err in them. Sciamachia, or a fight with one's shadow, you first define, than you produce examples (of our supposed practice.) I dislike not the definition, and hasten to those examples. Against those that have vowed single life (say you) they allege Scriptures which speak honourably of marriage; whom smite they with such weapons? Whom but yourself, Campian, and those so worthy Prelates on your side, which first imposed the vow of perpetual virginity upon Ministers of the Gospel. For if the Scriptures do indeed speak honourably of wedlock, than Pope Syricius, and Innocent the second of that name, and such others your stout maintainers of single life, can by no means be defended, who, as is well known, have spoken many things basely, a DUR. This is your impudency, for we say matrimony is so holy, that it is even a Sacrament, yet not equal with Virginity. WHIT. pag. 778. All men know what Syricius and Jnnocentius wrote of Matrimony. By the Scriptures it appeareth to be equally holy with virginity; if not, why bring you no testimony to the contrary? And it is very absurd, that you account virginity more holy, and yet will needs have matrimony to be a Sacrament: virginity should rather be a Sacrament, seeing (by your opinion) it is the more holy. despitefully, and wickedly of matrimony. Consider well those speeches which even now I produced, taken out of your law: deny, if you can for shame, that they be dishonest in themselves, and egregiously injurious to wedlock. Certainly if these Scriptures do indeed wound (the ancient heretics) Saturninus, Severus, b DUR. What Catholic ever esteemed marriage to be no better than pollution, as those heretics did? WHIT. pag. 779. Pope Innocent in effect, in that he dissuaded Deacons from it, because they must be holy, and have nothing to do with pollutions, and bed-pleasures: than which Tatianus himself could say nothing against marriage more impious. Tatianus, the Encratites, and the Archontici, needs must they also most sharply touch you to the quick, which commonly are wont to judge and speak no whit more honourably of wedlock than they have done. For show me, Campian, if you can, wherein those reproachful speeches may any whit more touch the marriage of Ministers, than of other men. Thus then both you yourselves have apparently fled to the heretics holds; and also these Scriptures which do speak so honourably of wedlock, do disprove your heresy, and give you a very deadly wound. For thus I press our argument more effectually (than you:) If wedlock be honourable in every degree of men, and the bed undefiled; then in no degree ought they to be esteemed dishonest or impure: but the antecedent is c DUR. By this argument, you may as well condemn Saint Paul: for marriage is honourable, even in those widows, who yet have damnation (saith he) because they will marry. WHIT. pag. 779. S. Paul disalloweth such widows, not because they would marry, but because they would reject their faith & Christian profession, by waxing wanton, & marrying with Infidels. true; therefore the consequent is necessarily true also. Hebr. 13.4. What can you here disprove? or why hath it not the force of a necessary conclusion, out of which you shall never be able to wind yourself? As for your sleight evasion, because of a former vow, I have already confuted it. Let us now proceed unto your other examples. Against the merits of a Christian man, dipped in Christ's blood (say you) they recite testimonies, which command us to put our affiance neither in nature, nor in the Law, but in the blood of Christ: whom do they confute with these testimonies? Those arguments which are urged by our side against men's merits, do most clearly confute you and strike you dead. Man's nature is corrupt; Gen. 6.5. ●●. Rom. 4.15. and the Law showeth the disease, but doth not cure it: therefore all our hope of salvation consisteth in Christ's blood. But you have devised us a kind of merit, forsooth, dipped in the blood of Christ, which may avail much to deserve salvation. For so you maintain, that salvation doth not wholly consist in the blood of Christ, but that it much what dependeth upon your own merits; yet so as that they be dipped with Christ's blood; lest you might be thought down right Pelagians. To speak more plainly: this is that you teach, wherein the whole sum (first and last) of your righteousness consisteth: namely, That Christ hath merited for us by his blood, that we might d DUR. We teach plainly, that all the merits of our good works, have their force and effect only from Christ's blood. WHIT. pag. 780. Thus you detract salvation from Christ's merits, and ascribe it to ou● merits, dipped with his blood: which the Scriptures no where teach, but utterly condemn, proving that all our good works, are in something faulty, and so merit not eternal life. Again by your doctrine, every man should be redeemed by his own works, and so not by one only Mediator. 1. Tim. 2.5. Thirdly, Christ undertook to obtain for us remission of sins by his own death, which he performed not perfectly, if it be in part by our own works. Fourthly; so should we not trust in God only, but also in our works dipped in Christ's blood, which were blasphemy. DUR. The Scripture saith, we are worthy the kingdom of God. WHIT. pag. 782. It saith we are worthy, not because of our own merits, but in that Christ's merits are communicated unto us. DUR. Life eternal is often called a reward in Scriptures, and the Fathers. WHIT. pag. 78●. Reward doth not always argue merit, but is oftentimes freely given: and the Scriptures never mention any of our merits. merit salvation. This is that merit dipped with the blood of Christ, which you speak of, Confute now our arguments, if you can, which usually are alleged against it. Whatsoever is required as a e DUR. The Angels have merited, & our first parents might have merited blessedness before their fall, yet all that they could do, was a due debt unto God. WHIT. pag. 785. If Christ say truly, that they are unprofitable servants which do all that is commanded, & no more; then neither may the Angels, nor might those out first parents ascribe any thing to their own merits, but to God's free mercy, seeing they could do no more good than they ought, and was commanded them. debt, that meriteth not: but whatsoever (good thing) we do, Rom. 8.12. Luk. 17.10. Rom. 4.4. is wholly a debt: therefore we have no merit at all of our own. And that you may understand, that we ought to put confidence in the blood of Christ only, and not in our own merits; I will thus reason from Saint Paul's doctrine. ●al. 2.21. If righteousness be by the Law; then Christ died in vain: but if we be justified by our f DUR. W●e are justified by the merits of our works, not done by our own power, and help of the Law only, but by grace in Christ. WHIT. pag. 786. Thus might the Galathians have answered S. Paul, whose faith was all one with yours in this point; when be reproved them for joining the works of the Law with grace to justification: but S. Paul showed them, that the inheritance is of promise only, and so merely of grace; and no whit of works; which are ever of the Law, whether before or after faith. merits, we are justified by the Law: therefore if we be justified by our merits, Christ died in vain. What need I here mention innumerable other our arguments, not one whereof, but it is concluded demonstratively, and infallibly: whereas your own merits, alas, are very pitifully and shamelessly defended by you, against the blood of Christ. You add to these a third example (saying) Against those which honour saints, as the most acceptable servants of Christ, there are vouched whole pages of Scriptures, which prohibit the worshipping of many gods: where are they now? Verily the Lord by his own authority reserveth unto himself, Psal. 50.15. that we invocate him alone: wherefore who so worshippeth and invocateth g DUR. We worship not Saints as Gods, but as the friends and servants of God; and Saint Paul himself desired to be helped by the prayers of sundry Christian Churches: so that you cavil with us, as the heathen and heretics did of old against the Fathers. WHIT. pag. 787. The honour of invocation may not be given to any of God's friends; for we must pray to none, but whom we may call, Father, Luk. 11.2. and in whom we may believe, Rom. 10.14. therefore not to Saints at all. As for Saint Paul, he craved the prayers of Saints for him, whilst they lived▪ but he never either prayed to them living, or dead. Nor did the Catholic Father's worship, adore, or invocate Saints departed, as you do: For Augustine Epist. 44. saith to Maximus the Heathen, know you that no Catholic Christian doth worship any of the dead, & Jerome to Vigilantius, saith, who is so mad, as to worship any of the Martyrs? Saints, he giveth to them the honour due to God: for he both presupposeth that they can perform any thing whatsoever, and also that they be h DUR. The Saints hear our prayers, though they be absent. WHIT. pag. 790. Every one that prayeth to Saints supposeth them to be present, & to know even his thoughts, and so (in effect) maketh them Gods: as Basil proveth the holy Ghost to be God, because he heareth godly men's prayers wheresoever. DUR. The Saints are in many far distant places at once, though not every where. WHIT pag. 791. Duraeus doteth to say so: for as well they might be in all, as in many places at once: But Damascene, lib. 2. cap. 3. and A●●●nas, quaest. 52. art. 2 say of the very Angels, that when they be in heaven, they are not in earth. present every where, both which are the peculiar properties of God only. So that whatsoever is (truly) alleged against many gods, that is altogether effectual against your Saints in heaven, whom both you worship more zealously than God himself, and rob him of his due honour to adorn them. 1. Tim. 1.5. Rom. 8.34. Heb. 7.25. There is (indeed) one mediator of God and men, the man jesus Christ; he for ever maketh intercession for us; therefore they which bring in new intercessors, and mediators, are i DUR. Christ is the only Mediator of Redemption; and Saints may be Mediators of Intercession, without injury to him. WHIT. pag. 793. Christ alone is Mediator of both, as these Scriptures prove plainly: and Christ himself saith, no man cometh to the Father but by me, job. 14.6. and, he will give you all things in my name, joh. 16.23. and 1 joh. 2.2. so that it is sacrilege against Christ's Priesthood, to make Saints mediators to commend us to God. injurious unto Christ. Tell me, Campian, have you any face to defend these your sentences following? k Duraeus excuseth this, persuading himself the writer meant no ill in it; though it be indeed intolerable, as are many other such their usual speeches of the blessed Virgin: see Whit. pag. 794. Command him by thy motherly authority; and those which are often chanted in the rude rhyme of the Mass of the virgin Maries conception, thus: Tu spes certa miserorum, verè matter orphanorum, Tu levamen oppressorum, Medicamen infirmorum, Omnibus es omnia? That is to say, Thou (blessed Virgin Marie) art the infallible l DUR. Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians his hope, 1. Thess. 2.19. WHIT. pag. 796. But he never put his trust in, nor called upon them, as you do the Virgin Marie: he called them his hope, because he received great hope and joy by his labours in their conversion. You make the Virgin an instrument of our salvation, and therefore you trust in her, but the Scriptures teach every where to trust in God and Christ only. As Psal. 71.3. jer. 17.5.7. 1. Tim. 1.1. and 1. Pet. 1.21. hope of such as are in misery, the true mother of Orphans; Thou art the consolation of such as be oppressed, the medicine of such as be diseased, Thou art all m DUR. The sentence of the Catholic Church, hath no where alloved this; but if it had, it might be conveniently defended. WHIT pag. 797. Duraeus can conveniently expound that, which most absurdly taketh the office of redemption from Christ and giveth it to the Virgin Mary. in all to all men (or) in all necessities; and other such like abominable speeches, and full of strange blasphemy? If happily you think our reproving of these things, be but some fight with a shadow, then do you no more respect the glory of God, than the shadow of an Ass. The second error in disputation wherewith you charge us, Logomachia is, that we often use Logomachia, which is when the sense is neglected, and men contend about the word. I understand it well: but which be those our faults committed in this kind? Can you find us (say they) the Mass, or Purgatory in the Scriptures. And is not this our demand reasonable? For where should these be found rather than in the Scriptures? There was nothing wont to be accounted more holy than the Mass, and there could nothing be invented more gainful than Purgatory: that neither of these now at last should be found in the Scriptures, certainly it may well seem a very strange and unreasonable thing. Belike then (say you) Trinitas, the Trinity; Homousios, coessential; Persona, a person, are no where in the Bible, because these very terms are not to be found there. Neither say we so, Campian, nor will it follow at all hereupon; and these things be altogether unequally compared. For albeit these very terms are not in Scriptures, Epiphan. contra Semiarian. l. 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. yet the matter itself, and the sense, as Epiphanius writeth, cometh to hand in all places, and is easily every where to be found. But your n DUR. Did you never read these words of Christ in his last Supper: this is my body? WHIT. pag. 799. Yea; but Christ ordained then a Sacrament, not a sacrifice: he offered himself a sacrifice only once upon the Cross, Heb 9 10. not in his last Supper, except you will say, he died then also, which he must have done to make it a sacrifice; but he was then alive, & it were most absurd to say he was alive and dead at one time, which he needs must be, both then and in all your Masses, if there be any sacrifice in the Mass at all. Again, external sacrifices, as you say your Mass is, are subject to the sight & outward senses, but no man ever saw Christ to be sacrificed, either in the Supper or in the Mass. Therefore there is none, neither in the one nor in the other. DUR. It was a sacrifice, for Christ was really contained under those former of bread and wine: and so the Mass is now an unbloody sacrifice. WHIT. pag. 801. You cannot prove him to be so present there as you teach, by no Scripture; and if he were, yet that was not therefore a sacrifice, except you will have his real being in the Virgin's womb also to be a sacrifice, in which he was contained. As for your unbloody propitiatory sacrifice: first, it is absurd, for to sacrifice killeth a body, but your Transubstantiation maketh a body: secondly, it hath no word of God for it: thirdly, it is needless, Christ's sacrifice being perfect: four, Christ ordained that supper in memory of his sacrifice, not to be itself a sacrifice: WHIT. pag. ●03. DUR. Many of the Fathers call the Eucharist by the name of sacrifice. WHIT. pag 805. Not because it is that same which Christ offered (as you teach) but because it is a memorial and Sacrament of it. DUR. Purgatory is most plainly proved by the fact of judas Machabaeus, in the second book and 12. chapter. WHIT. pag. 806. Those books are not Canonical Scripture, neither doth that act prove a Purgatory by your own doctrine, who say those that die in deadly sin, (as those did there mentioned) go to hell, and not to Purgatory. Mass and Purgatory, are not in this manner in the Scriptures, seeing neither the names nor the things themselves any where do appear: yea they are plainly against the Scriptures. For what else is either the Mass, than as * Bustum coenae Dominica. an empty sepulchre where is only the title of the Lords Supper? or what is Purgatory more than a shameless merchandise of souls, and an intolerable contempt against the blood of Christ? Wherefore this is not a trisling contention about words, but a most weighty one about matters of moment; except peradventure you make account of the Mass and Purgatory, not to be matters of moment, but words of Art only. As for the name o DUR. The office of a Presbyter, or Elder, in the Gospel is the same that the Priest's office was in the Law. WHIT. pag. 807. It is not so: for if the office did remain; why should the name be changed, for Elders are never called Priests in the new Testament. And there be ruling Elders in the Church, which labour not in the ministery of the word and Sacraments, as the Priests did. Presbyter, and Sacrament, it is appropriated from the common signification, to some certain and particular things, as likewise many other names are; (to wit) Ecclesia the Church, Episcopus a Bishop, Apostolus an Apostle, Dia●onus a Deacon: and these names we willingly use, but so that we carefully shun their impertinent significations. Neither was that indeed sufficient cause, why you should register Matrimony in the catalogue of Sacraments, because S. Paul wrote (thus) Sacramentum hoc magnum, Eph. 5. This is a great mystery. For in that place, Sacramentum, is used in a large signification for any mystery, not for that ceremony which may properly be called a Sacrament. As for that counsel of Thomas Aquinas, we do very well approve it. The third head, Homonymia or kind of deceitful disputation which you say we usually err in, is Homonymia, equivocation, or a mistaking the sense of words: whereof you propound two examples: For (say you) we both confound the order of Priests, because S. john hath termed us all Priests; and also abolish choice of meats, and prescribed observation of days, Apoc. 5. because the Prophet highly commendeth a spiritual fast. Esay 48. I will speak a few words both of the one and other, that I may clearly quit us of this crime of homonymy. Saint john alone hath not named all p DUR. By this argument you may as well prove the jews had no Priests; properly so called. WHIT. pag. 809. Not so, for the Lord ordained such a Priesthood amongst them, which he hath not amongst Christians. Christians Priests, 1. Pet. 2.5.9 but S. Peter also hath termed them a holy, and a royal Priesthood: and this name is in no place of the new Testament q DUR. So the name, Sacrament, is never given to Baptism, nor to the Eucharist in the New testament. WHIT. pag. 810. But the substance of it, agreeth to them both, and is there, whereas the name, Sacerdos, a Priest, is not in the new Testament, nor doth the thing itself properly belong to any but Christ, since his death. DUR. Yea Christ instituted a sacrifice in his Supper, and where a sacrifice is, there is a Priest also. WHIT. pag. 810. Christ ordained them no sacrifice, but only a Sacrament of a sacrifice. DUR. Esay calleth the Minister's of the Gospel, Priests, cap. 6●. 6. & 66.21. WHIT. Esay in the first place speaketh of all Christians; and in the second, of Ministers in the phrase of that time; whence also you may as well say Deacons are Levites, which you will not say they are properly. DUR Ministers are needless, except they be Priects, and as mediators betwixt God and men unto salvation: and your Ministers are but Lay-men. WHIT. pag. 810. ●15. They must preach the Word, and administer the Sacraments, but not offer sacrifice of mediation betwixt God and men, as you say, you do in the Mass: to do these we have a calling ordained of Christ; for your sacrifice you have none. DUR. The Apostles name them not Priests, because they are not of the order of Aaron; but the Fathers call them Priests, who knew the Apostles m●a●ing: and you call them Priests in English. WHIT pag. 812. Christ only is a Priest, after the order of Melchisedecke: Heb. 7.3. so then there be no Priests at all, you confess: the Fathers call them so by custom, but not properly & the Apostles of purpose abstaining from the name of Priests, might teach us hereafter better wisdom to do so also. properly applied to the Ministers of the Gospel. For Christ being made an high Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedech, hath no copartners of this r DUR. True, for it is Christ that presenteth himself in the sacrifice, we only are as ministers. WHIT. p. 814. If you be Ministers only, then are you not properly Priests; & why then will you be so called? DUR. Yet we as truly sacrifice, as baptize. WHIT. Thus you will be Ministers only, and no Priests, nor be copartners in Christ's sacrifice; yet you will b● termed Priests, and truly sacrifice; these be contraries, and cannot stand together, yea, mere madness and dotages. Priesthood: therefore Christ hath left unto his (Churches) a ministery, and not a new Priesthood. Neither doth there remain to us s DUR. Thus you strip the Gospel of all sacrifice and religion. WHIT. pag. 816. 817. All your religion by this your doctrine, is in your Mass, which we willingly have not; but notwithstanding we have the sacrifice of Christ, which is perpetual and inchangeable, Heb. 7 2●. 28. and 10.14. your invisible sacrifice the Scripture knoweth not. any such sacrifice; for the administration whereof some special Priests must needs be authorized. For that sacrifice of praise, and doing good, Hebr. 13.15.16. which the Apostle mentioneth, and which now remaineth only; that (I say) appertaineth indifferently to all Christians. Notwithstanding we permit none to execute the administration of this ministry, which Christ would have to be perpetual in his Church, but them whom it concerneth, and who are by due order t DUR. Who called Luther, Caluin, Beza, etc. your Ministers? WHIT. pag. 820. Luther, Zuinglius, Bucer, etc. were Priests of your own, and so had a calling (except your order of Priesthood be no calling) and might call others by your law. Again, God is not tied so to order, but that he may for the good of the Church, call Ministers extraordinarily. And the Churches have lawful power to choose Ministers (so that we need not to call any from you that service) as saith Cyprian. Epist. 68 Thus were Calui● and Beza chosen. called thereunto. Albeit then Christ have made us all both Kings, that we might be able to subdue our sins; and Priests, that we might offer him spiritual sacrifices: notwithstanding as it is not lawful for every man to dream of a kingdom, so it is a thing detestable for any man to enter upon the holy Ministry, who hath not that function committed unto him by divine authority. Wherefore I see not at all why you should charge us with any such Homonymy (or falsehood from ambiguous signification) in this word. As for your manner of fasting, that indeed is wholly in show, and hath nothing in it of a Christian fast, but the very name. For to make choice of meats, as a thing more religious, and to prescribe certain, and perpetual set days, wherein we must necessarily fast, the u DUR. This savoureth of Luther's spirit: but Pope Leo saith, that the holy Ghost taught the Apostles, the discipline of fasting, for one of the chief Sacraments of heavenly doctrine. WHIT. pag. 8●1. etc. We allow Christian fasting; but what spirit taught Leo to say so of your solemn superstitious fasts? the Scriptures speak no such thing, which we preferie before all men's judgements. one is witless, the other superstitious. For what man, which is not deprived of judgement and all sense, will think that he fasteth, who (so that he abstain x DUR. No Catholic ever said, that the force of fasting consisteth in only abstinence from flesh. WHIT. pag. 822. All men know that you call your abstinence from flesh in Lent, in the Ember days, the Saint eves &c. fasting: and that he, who then eateth ●●sh and other meat in abundance in not said amongst you to violate his fast; but if one do but taste flesh, you esteem him a grieevous malefactor. DUR. But Elisha, Daniel, & john Baptist made religious choice of meats, which you thus call madness: yea Daniel abstained from flesh and wine to apprease God's anger; whose example teacheth us also to abstain from daintier meats in time of fasting, as the Church hath long accustomed, WHIT. pag. 823. These holy men did not fast as you do, and teach: for Elisha fed the Prophets with wild and bitter herbs, not for religion sake, but in time of fulmine, for want of other victual, 2. King. 4.39. and Daniel abstained not from some only, but from all desirable meats, Dan. 10.3. not to appease God's anger, as you say, but that he might with more lively sense of his brethren's misery, humble himself to God: as for John Baptists continual diet, it was locusts and wild honey, nothing like your fasting. It is mere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meats, fasting, though other as delicate be eaten, as you do; no Prophets, nor ancient Christians in the Church ever fasted thus. from flesh) may at his pleasure glut himself with all manner of dainties? Or who can suppose that the Fridays fast is holier than the Wednesdays fast, but he must too much savour of judaisme? If S. Paul reproved the Galathians, Gal. 4.10. because they did observe days, and y DUR. This is an ancient cavil of heretics; long since ansevered by Jerome and Augustine: that we observe not the same days that jews and Gentiles did. WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in th●ir time did not bind men's consciences to the observation of days as you do (and as did the Galathians) judging it necessary for Christians to fast at your set times: which if it had done, yet the authority of men must not prevail more than Scriptures. months, and times, is it likely he would endure our Papists, which err more grossly and shamefully? If he forewarned the Colossians, that they would not be entangled with their superstition, Colos. 2.21. which thought that some certain meats were not to be z DUR. Saint Paul reproveth there, the practice of jewish ceremonies. WHIT. pag. 8●6. True, and all other like them, which are man's ordinances and doctrines, as he saith plamely, verse 22. of which sort yours are; else show us Scripture for them. touched, not to be tasted, not to be handled, would he allow the papistical choice of meats? If he determined long since, 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was devilish and a DUR. You sight against us with the Manichees weapons; whom Augustine answered against Faust. lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstain from certain meats and fruits, more or less, as they please, and are able; to tame the body, and humble the soul against sin; not as though th●se creatures were vnc●●●e. WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee; but indeed he there condemneth them, and all that forbidden to eat meats, under pain of damnation, which you do: and that place of Augustine plainly showeth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time: first, they were to tame and humble men, yours do not so: secondly, they thought no meats unclean, you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden: thirdly, they abstained from sith and fruits, as from flesh in their fasts, you do not so: four, they fasted as they thought good, and could, but you make general laws of fastings, to bind men thereto. hypocritical to abstain from certain meats, if he were now living, would he change his doctrine, and command this abstinence to a Christian? We truly for our parts do always and very highly commend a true fast, whether it be private or public; neither do we commend them only, but also we use them, as this year last passed may most plentifully witness for us, during which, public fasts were most religiously observed in very many places. As for those fasts of Moses, and David, & Helias, and john Baptist, and the Apostles, wherein were they any whit like unto yours? for if fasting do consist in choice of meats, and in appointing set days, as you resolutely judge it doth, inform me (if you can) that they either at any time b DUR. The ancient observation of Lent, of Wednesday and Fridates fast, and of the Ember days might have informed you hereof. WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in grain, for Moses, Elias, David, ●ohn Baptist, and the Apostles noverkept those fasts; neither did they nor any of the ancient Fathers prefer fish before flesh in their● fastings, as you do. DUR. Aeriu● was counted an heretic. who taught the same doctrine of fasting which you do. Epiphan. haerel. 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The ancient Church disliked Euslathius his eagerness against Aerius in this point, as witnesseth Socrates, l. 2. c. 43. & Sozomen. l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian, and so an heretic, but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine, Epist. 86. that there were no certain times of fasting appointed by the Apostles: & Tertullian (contra Psychico●) witnesseth that in the ancient Christian church men used to fast voluntarily & freely, not by Canon or precept: & Epiphanius defended Eustathius against the churches judgement in this point touching Aerius preferred fish before flesh, or used enjoined and yearly set fasts. For john Baptist used continually to fast in his manner, and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required, in which their fasts, they abstained as well from fish as from flesh. Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of homonymy, I deny that we use any. For in that, that we require the spiritual fast, we dislike not the external, 〈◊〉. Tim. 4.8. howsoever this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spiritual. But this deceitful argumentation, if there were any such here, is rather by inferring a weak consequent, then by homonymy, or equivocation; how beit, what the truth is we have sufficiently ciscussed. You haste forward and join unto these a fourth manner of deceitful disputation, Circulatio. named Circulation, which is, when one after a few words to no purpose returneth again to the same, and beggeth the question. I acknowledge it to be a gross, and unsavoury kind of sophistry so to do, but show me an example of our so doing. You propound one example, namely, about the true notes of the Church, for here, you say, we always make circuits and rounds, and use that very same thing for an argument, wherein the question lieth. But how prove you that? forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be, the word of God, and the Sacraments. And so we say truly, for they who have these, have a Church of Christ; but they who altogether want these, are utterly without both the Church and Christ. Let us contend about these notes, that it may be discerned whether you or we have them. Tell me, in what Court shall we try this title? before what Commissioner, before what judge shall we commence our plea? I suppose the word of God must be consulted with. But you say you have already consulted with it, and you now favour our cause less than you did before. But I say, Campian, we rest upon the word of God, and not on your judgement. Yea but (say you) prove unto me that this is the word of God: nay it were more meet that you should prove it is not. And I also require of you, that you will do the same thing which you command me to do, namely, that you will prove your word and Sacraments to be the very same, which Christ hath commended unto his Church. Wherefore this is no more our fault, then yours; the controversy is about the word of God. You contend that you have it; I contrariwise defend that we have it: if you like not my judgement, why may not I dislike yours? But you say, we expound the word c DUR. You do so, for you prove the sense of Scripture which you allege, neither by authority of Fathers, nor by decrees of Counsels, nor by the rule of faith, that is, the common use and custom of Christians. WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessary to salvation is plainly taught in the Scriptures (as the Fathers themselves confess) and may be found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places, and such like means, and so we prove the true sense of them. The Father's expositions often err, and vary one from another, as their writings witness, and you will confess: the ancient Counsels expound little of the Scriptures: as for the use and customs of the people, it is no rule of faith at all, nor must we expound the Scriptures thereby. amiss: I again avouch that it is false which you say. Whither are you now come at last? go one foot further forward if you can. Why, say you, I have the testimony of fifteen hundred years. This is nought else but a frivolous, a foolish, and an insolent brag. You have not, I say, you have not Campian. You are ever here deceived, and turn round again, as it were into a circle, and are faulty in that same very thing, for which you reprove us. Touching the Fathers, I have answered you already. In the questions of greatest weight, they are wholly on our d DUR. If it were so, you would not extenuate their authority, nor refuse to stand to their judgement as you do. WHIT. pag. 833. We give the Fathers their due, but rely more upon the Scriptures, which are infallibly true. you are driven from the Scriptures, and rake up, even out of the Father's oversights, whatsoever seemeth to favour your errors: neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controversies, because we say with Augustine, that all controversies of religion must not be determined out of the Fathers, but only by the Scriptures. side; in those of smaller moment, their judgements are divers, and they make for you in very few, and those of least importance. How much better would it stand with wisdom, that (as Augustine sometime wrote of Counsels) neither you should object Jerome against me, nor I Augustine against you, Aug. contra Maximian. lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to prejudice each side, but that matter might be tried with matter, cause with cause, and reason with reason, by the authority of the Scriptures? Aug. Epist. 111. ad Fortunatian. For indeed, as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught us, we must not have any men's disputations (howsoever otherwise they be men of sound judgement and worthy praise) in like estimation as the e DUR. No Catholic ever esteemed any man's wittings to be compared with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not only compare them with, but also prefer them before the Scriptures: for they will not have controversies tried by the Scriptures, but by the Fathers, and they sooner allow a sentence of one Father, than many Scriptures, so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas. Canonical Scriptures. Such an understander (saith he) am I in reading other men's writings, such would I have other men to be of mine. And because you have mentioned Thomas Aquinas, The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art. learn of him what manner arguments may be taken out of the Father's writings. Divinity, or holy learning, saith he, useth authorities of Canonical Scripture to prove or disprove a thing necessarily; but it useth the authorities of other f DUR. We say not that the judgement of one or two of the Fathers, but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you. WHIT. 833.835. Augustine and Thomas spoke also of all men, opposing only Scriptures unto them: so that apparently they taught, that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could be but a probable reason, and that the Scriptures only yield necessary arguments, which no consent of men, though never so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute. Further I say, pag. 854. that you have the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against us; yea, that all the ancient Fathers, do together with us, with one voice condemn your half Communion, Transubstantiation, real presence, sole Communion, bread-worshipping, external real sacrifice, service in strange language, your Pope's absolute jurisdiction, and many other such like. Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably. These, forsooth, o you truly learned University students are those so notorious sophistical errors, which Campian could find worthy his censure in our men's writings: I could wish you might have this so famons a Sophister to canvas awhile at home in your Schools, then verily would it easily appear how much truth excelleth falsehood, and how far sound learning prevaileth against vain bragging words: for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright, nor greatly perplex you. EDMUND CAMPIAN. The tenth Reason, which is all manner of Witnesses. THis shall be to you a direct path, so that the simplest that be, need not wander out of it. For who is, Esay. 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people, so senseless (so that he have an eye unto his soul's health) that cannot see, (if he look but a little about him) the path of the Church so plainly trodden, that cannot keep it, if he dislike of by-ways that lead him through brambles and ragged roches, and places that cannot be passed? These things shall be well known even of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophesied, and therefore most manifest unto you. If you will, * Campian bringeth nothing in this place, but a continual begging of the question. let us take a view of all things that are any where to be seen: let us traverse over every thing wheresoever it be. All things do minister matter fit for our purpose. Let us ascend into heaven by imagination, there may we find such as through martyrdom, Coelites. are as ruddy as the red a August. Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose, and also such as for their innocency while they lived do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly. There may we see (I say) those * Of which, not one was a Papist. three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit. Po●●. Rom. Rome, which for their faith were immediately murdered one after another. There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations upon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christ's name. There may we see the stock of faithful people that tread the steps of their Pastors. There may we see all the c Hiero. in cat. script. saints of heaven that through their pure and virtuous conversation upon the earth, gave a rare example unto all sorts of men. Thou shalt find that they both lived here, and died members of our Catholic Church. And that we may take a taste of some few by name d In Epist. ad Smyr. on our side was Ignatius, that so earnestly thirsted after martyrdom, who in ecclesiastical matters advanced a * And we in those things which are proper to a Bishop, make none equal to a Bishop. Bishop even above a King, who penned also certain traditions of the Apostles, whereof he himself was a witness, lest they should be quite forgotten. e Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 30. Dam. in vit. Telesp. To. 1. con. c. stat. d. 5. On our side was that Anchorete Telesphorus, who commanded that the fast of Lent which was before instituted by the Apostles should be kept more strictly. On our side was S. Ireneus, f Lib. 3. c. 3. who proved that the Apostolic faith descended unto us by the succession and sea of Rome. On our side also was that high Bishop g Euseb. 5. hist. 24. Victor, who by a general Proclamation * This is false, for he could not subdue it. kept the whole Country of Asia in due obedience, which Proclamation, though to some it seemed somewhat hard, but specially unto this most blessed man S. Ireneus, no man yet attempted to deface as * This is false, for many Bishops have bitterly inveighed against Victor for this cause. foreign authority. Polycarpus h Euseb. 4. hist. 14. Suidas. was on our side that about the question of the keeping of Easter day, went and conferred with the sea of Rome, whose relics after he was burned, the faithful Christians at Smyrna gathered together, and gave due honour unto their Bishop, by observing yearly the day of his death, as an high and solemn feast. On our side were i Euseb. 7. Hist. 2. S. Cornelius, and S. Cyprian, those golden pair of Martyrs, which were both very worthy Prelates, but the former was the greater, who when he was Bishop of Rome, abolished the African errors. The latter also got great commendations through his loyal obedience which he showed to his superior, and dearest friend he had in the world. On our side was Sixtus, who when he song Mass at the Altar was solemnly served with seven men of the Clergy. On our side was S. Laurence, this man's Archdeacon, whom the adversaries cancel out of their Calendars. To whom k Prud. in Hym. de. S. Laur. vi. Aug. ser. de S. I aur. Ambros. lib. 1. off. cap. 4. lib. 2. off 28. Leo serm. in die S. Laur. Prudentius, a man that had been Consul in Rome about 1200. years ago prayed in this wise: O most glorious servant of Christ, what power is given thee, and what authority is granted unto thee in heaven, the great joy of the Romans do sufficiently show upon the obtaining of such requests as they make unto thee. Amongst the which number, I beseech thee mercifully give ear to me thy rude Poet that doth confess unto thee my sinful thoughts, & also disclose my wicked actions, hear benignly, I pray thee, me thy humble suppliant Prudentius, that hath highly offended Christ my Saviour. On our side l Metaph. Ambros. ser. 90. tom. 3. & lib. 1. de Virg. Ado. Tae. in martyr. Euseb. 8. Hist. 27. were those most blessed virgins, S. Cecilia, S. Agatha, S. Anastasia, S. Barbara, S. Agnes, S. Lucia, S. Dorethy, and S. Katherine, who constantly kept their vowed chastity against the tyranny both of men and devils. S. Helen was on our side, who was most famous for the finding of the cross of Christ. S. Monocha the mother of S. Augustine was on our side, who when she lay on her deathbed most devoutly desired to be prayed for after her death, Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 8. Ex Aug. lib. 9 con. cap. 7. usque ad 1●. Hiero●. in Epist. Paul. Hiero●. in cap. Semp. Athanas. Ambros. in orat. fut. de Satyro joan. Diacon. Seu. S●lp. Metaph. Grae. lib. 2. Dial. and to have the * This was not the sacrifice of the Mass: read the answer. sacrifice of the mass offered for her at Christ's altar. S. Paula was on our side, who forsaking her fair palace situated within the city of Rome, and her goodly farms abroad in the Country, went on pilgrimage by long journeys even unto to the cave of Bethelem, where Christ lay crying in his cradle, there in solitariness to spend the residue of her time. On our side was S. Paulus, S. Hilarion, S. Antony, who lived in solitariness till they were old men. On our side was Satyrus, that was brother german unto S. Ambrose, who carrying about him in a stole that dreadful host, and being in present danger of shipwreck, hoping assuredly that he would protect him, leapt into the raging sea and s●ome to land. On our side were S. Nicholas and S. Martin, who were both Bishops much exercised in watchings, clothed altogether in haircloth, and fed with fasting. On our side was S. Benet, who was father unto a great number of Monks. Ten years were not long enough for me to recite this infinite number of Saints, neither do I here make mention of them, whom before I placed among the Doctors of the Church. I do not forget my promise, that I would pass over things as briefly as I could conveniently: let him that would know more hereof peruse not only the large histories of ancient writers, but also much more rather the grave authors, which have almost every one of them written special books of the lives of the Saints, for a remembrance to their posterity: * And you of all those, name me one jesuit. then let him tell me what his opinion is of those most ancient Christians, Vide. 12. tom. Surij. and most blessed, of whether religion were they, of the Catholics religion, or of the Lutherans religion? * After this manner Campian useth to dispute. I call to witness the throne of God, and that his tribunal seat, before which I shall stand to render an account of these my ten reasons, and of my said act in making my challenge, that either there is no heaven at all, which I and my adherents do detest, or that it belongeth properly to such only as are of our religion, which thing we for our parts hold for sound doctrine. Now on the contrary side, if you think good let us look down into hell, Damnati. where lie some burning in everlasting fire. Who? the jews: what Church are they against? ours. Who else? the heathen: What Church have they most cruelly persecuted? ours, who besides these? the Turks: What Churches have the pulled down? ours, who yet? the heretics: to what Church were they enemies? to ours. * The Catholic Church, of which your Church is no part. Forwhat Church I pray you hath always withstood the gates of hell, Matth. 16. Judai. Eusch. 4. Hist. 5. Hieron. in Epist. ad Paul. & in Epist. ●●d Marcel. & passim in Epist. but ours? When after the expulsion of the jews under Vespasian, and Titus his son, Christians increased at Jerusalem, O immortal God what coming of good people was there to the holy places that were there! What wonderful devotion was there among all sorts of people to see that City of Jerusalem! What zeal to see Christ's Sepulchre, what desire to see the manger wherein Christ lay, what thirsting after the sight of the cross whereon Christ was nailed, what longing to behold all sorts of monuments there, in which the holy Church taketh as much delight, as doth a spouse in the garments laid off by her husband! Upon this began that mortal hatred and implacable of the jews against us; for even at this day they * But they complain without cause, for they have. no reason why they should be angry with our ancestors. complain, that our Ancestors were the cause of their Ancestors overthrow: as for Simon Magus, and the Lutherans, Ethnici. they received never ablow at their hands. Among the heathen there were many tyrants, who during their reign for the space of 300. years, by fits at divers times, invented most bitter torments against Christians. Against what manner of Christians I pray you? Leo serm. de D. Laurent. Truly against the Fathers of our faith and their Children. Mark well with yourselves the speeches of this tyrant, that broiled S. Laurence on a Gridyron: It now well appears, Prud. in him. de S. Laur. that this is the order and fashion in your sacrifice. This doctrine you all agree to, that Bishops must offer up their sacrifice in plate of gold, and the people say, that the sacred blood smoketh out of your cups of silver, and that ye have tapers burning on golden candlesticks, during all the time of your night sacrifices. Also as common fame doth testify, your brethren have a special care to offer up thousands of pounds, though they sell their lands to get the same, the lawful heir being thus disinherited and brought to beggary, though his holy parents greatly complaineth for such shameful sale of lands, as should by right descend to him from his grandfathers. This wealth lieth hid in some secret corners of your Churches, and you think it a great godly deed to make your sweet babes go naked: fetch out these treasures which thou hoordest up by thy crafty persuasions, and wicked witchcraft, the which I say thou hadst in one dark hole or other: the commonweal, the King's exchequer, and the common treasure have need thereof. That money being employed for soldiers wages, the general lieutenant may be fully fraughted with soldiers. I understand that this is an usual doctrine amongst you. Restore to every man his own, behold the Emperor acknowledgeth his own phisnomy stamped upon his own coin. Give to Caesar that which thou knowest to be Caesar's. Truly I demand nothing but that which is just. Thy God (except I be deceived) cometh no money, neither brought he with him at his coming into the earth any golden gilderds, but ministered his commandments by word of mouth, being purslesse himself. Perform faith fully that his doctrine which you openly preach abroad, restore your money willingly, content yourself to be rich in words. * Campian demonstrates his Church by the wealth and riches of it. A note of the Popish Church. What manner of man seemeth this to be? against whom doth he thus rage? Whose Churches, sacrifices, lights, ceremonies, and ornaments hath he gone about to abolish? What Churches, golden goblets, and chalices of silver and costly gifts and rich stuff envied he at? This man undoubtedly doth hold on Luther's part. Gen. 10. For what other colour have our mighty * The Pope of Rome is that Nimrod. the mighty hunter of the Church. Nimrods' pretended to cover their theft withal, when they rob 1441 0536 V 3 Gods houses, and made hanock of Christ's inheritance? On the contrary part, what Church was it that Constantine the great, the very terror of Christ's enemies, hath brought to quietness, even that self-same Church, over which the high 〈◊〉 Bishop Silvester was governor, Dam. in Syl. Zonaras. whom the said Emperor called out of the mount Soract, where he lay secretly for fear of persecution, that by the help of the said Silvester he might be * This is false, for Silvester was dead many years before Constantine was baptized. baptized with our Baptism: under what banner fought he, that he became so great a conqueror? even under the banner of the n Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Con. c. 7. 8.9 ●ozom. lib. 1. cap. 9 Cross: who was his mother, that he attained ●o so great honour? even that blessed woman Saim Helen: what fathers took he part with? with the Fathers for sooth of the Nicene Council: what manner of men were they? namely they were S. Sivester, S. julius, S. Athanasius, S. Nicholas: to whose prayers did he commend himself? to the prayers of o Athan. in vita S. Aut. S. Antony: what room exacted he in the Council? * This is false, for it was the chiefest and of beaten gold. the very lowest of all. Oh how much more Princelike was he; when he sat in this seat than they, that since that time ambitionsly have made sale for a l●ttle, that is far unfit for a King! It were too long to declare every matter in particular; but by these two Emperors, whereof the one was our deadly enemy, the other was our most faith full friend, one may easily conjecture of every other circumstance, which are like to these afore spoken of. For as under the Tyrant our Catholic Christians, had a trouble some increase, so under this Emperor through God's great mercy, they were brought to a most happy end. Let us look a little into the Turks affairs: * It is manifest that the Turks have no less in creased by the help of the Pope, then by their own strength. Mahomet and Sergius the Monk, that fell from his religion, by howling in the deep pit of hell, oppressed both with their own sins, and the sins of their posterity. This monstrous and outrageous beast, Vide Volat. Jovium. Aemil. lib. 8 Blond. lib. 9 de. 1. I mean the Saracens and Turks, if they had not been quailed and driven back heretofore by the orders of Knights, in our holy warfare and by the Princes and people that take our part: as for Luther, * He hath good cause to be thankful to the Pope of Rome. to whom it is reported, that Solyman the great Turk, for this cause gave great thanks by his letters, yea and as for the Lutheran Princes, to whom the fortunate success of the Turks is but a laughing matter, as for them, I say, this ●aging fury, and most mischievous to mortallmen, had before this time destroyed and overthrown all Europe, and would have occupied himself, as busily in pulling down of Altars and signs of Christ's Cross, as ever Caluin was himself. Wherefore they are our peculiar enemies. Seeing that by our men's industry, hitherto, they have been kept back from off Christian men's throats. Let us take a view of heretics, Haretici. Clem. lib. 1. recog. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Cyp. Epist. ad jubatam. & l. 4. Epist. 2. Theodo●o de fab. haeret. & Aug. her 46. Epiph. hear 75. Socrat. lib. 2. c. 35. Hier. in jou. & Vigil. Aug. her. 82. which are the very dregs and bellows, and fit food for hell fire. The first that cometh into my mind is Simon Magus: what did he? * This is false, read the answer. he took from man free-will, he was still prating of faith only. The next that I remember was Novatian. What of him? he opposed himself to Cornelius the Pope of Rome. He was an enemy to the Sacramets' of Perance, and holy Unction. Thirdly, I think of Manes the Persian, who taught that * He taught that Baptism did avail nothing at all. Baptism was not a sufficient mean to work our salvation. After him there started up Aerius and Arian, who condemned prayers for the only, and was therefore forenamed the * This was Aetius not Aetius. Atheist as well as Lucian was. Then followed Vigilantius, which would not permit men to pray unto Saints, and jovinian, who maintained marriage to be as excellent as virginity: Finally there came after all the whole rabble of heretics, as Macedonius, Pelagius, Nestorius, Eutyches, Monothelites, Image breakers, and others; to which number our posterity will add also Luther and Caluin: what of all these? Every one of them like carrion Crows, hatched all of one kind of egg, rebelled against the chief rulers of our Church, and by them were confounded and brought to nought. Let us now leave speaking of hell, to return to the earth again. Terrae. Sedes Apostolica. Ep. 162. Whither soever I shall cast mine eyes, and incline my cogitation, whether I behold the patriarchs, and Seas Apostolic, or the Bishops of other countries, or renowned Princes and Emperors, or the first entrance of Christian religion, into every nation, or any monuments of antiquity, or the light of reason, or the comely sight of honesty. Vide Tert. de praes● Aug. lib. 2. de Doct. Christ. cap. 8. I find that all of them do dutiful service, and speak favourably for our religion: witness hereof the Roman succession. In whose Church (that I may say as doth S. Augustine) * While Augustine lived, the principaline of the Apostles chair flourished in that Church. But that apostolic chair is long ago overthrown. the principality of the Apostolic chair, hath ever been in force: witnesses also hereunto, are the seas of the rest of the Apostles, to whom the name Apostolic most excellently agreeth. Because they were first erected by the Apostles themselves, or by those that heard them preach. Witnesses also are the Pastors of every Church throughout the wide world, who, Terra disiunctissima. Hieron. in cat. scrip. eccl. & alij. though their abode was in divers places, yet our religion was common to them also. As S. Ignatius, and S. Chrysostome lived at Antioch: S. Peter, Alexander, Athanasius and Theophilus at Alexandria; Macarius and Cyril at Jerusalem, Proculus at Constantinople. Gregory & Basil at Capadocia, Gregory surnamed Tha●maturgus in Pontus: Polycarpus at Smyrna: justinus at Athens, Dionysius at Corinth. Another Gregory at Nissa: Methodius at Tyrus, Ephreenus in Syria, Cyprian, Optatus, Augustine in Africa. Epiphanius in Cyprus, Andrew in Crect, Ambrose, Paulinus, Gaudentius, Prosper, Faustus, Vigilius in Italy, I●encus, Martyrus, Hilarius, Eucherius, Gregory of Toures, and Siluianus in France, Vincentius, Orosins, Heldefonsus, Leander and Isidorus in Spain: Fugatius, Damanus, justus Mellitus and Bede in England. Finally, lest I should seem ambitious in reckoning so many names, what treatises or fragments of treatises so ever be extant, of those as in the Primitive Church preached the Gospel, though in countries far asunder, yet all of them do deliver unto us, one and the self-same faith * This is most false. which we Catholics do at this present profess; what cause (good Christ) could I allege, before thee for my example, but that thou mightest justly exclude me altogether from thy blessed company, if I should prefer a number of hedge-creepers, both few in account, and also unlearned, divided amongst themselves in opinions, & of a ●●so lo●● befor● s●●●●y * You ought not to hang your soul upon men. light ●●●●pes of the Church? Witnesses also are all Pri●●●s, Principes. Kings, Emperors and all their C●●●●-weales, the godliness of which Princes themselves, Vide C●p. To●. 〈◊〉. de s●●ctis. and also the people under their jurisdiction and their good government, both in times of peace and of mars, have at the first grounded themselves upon this sound rock of our Catholic doctrine. What famous men out of the East might I here recite unto you that bear the name of Theodosius? what worthy men out of the West, of the name of Charles? what Edwards out of England, what Lewesses out of France, what Hermingildes out of Spain, what Henries out of Saxony, what Winceslaes out of Bohemia, what Leopaldes out of Austria? What Steuens out of Hungary, what josephats' out of Indie? And finally what noble governors of many Empires, and Rulers of particular Countries, throughout the whole world, who by their good example, by their force, by their laws, by their continual care, by their charges, have maintained our Church? For so hath Esay prophesied, Esay. 48. Kings shall be thy foster Fathers, and Queens shall be thy nurses. Give ear, O Queen Elizabeth most mighty Princes, to your Majesty this great Prophet telleth this tale, he teacheth you precisely, what you have to do. And I tell you plain that one heaven cannot contain * You tell us this thing most foolishly. Caluine and these Peers. Let your Majesty therefore take part with these honourable Princes, that you may show yourself a condign heir unto your noble ancestors, answerable unto your excellent wit, correspondent to your profound knowledge, worthy of high commendations, and finally fit for your royal dignity. Only this I endeavour as touching your Majesty, and will endeavour whatsoever become of me, against whom, as though I were your deadly enemy, these fellows do so often threaten hanging on the gallows: o welcome sweet cross to me, o welcome, I say, ten thousand times sweet cross of mine! the day will come (most sovereign Lady and Queen Elizabeth) even that day I say will come, which shall ●●●dently s●t before your majesties eyes whether of the two have more sincerely loved you, the * She hath long ago and very sufficiently perceived, that how greatly your society hath loved her. Fie away varlates! society of jesuits or Luther's progeny. Nationes ad Chri●●●● tra●●●●. I go forward, there will witness with us all coasts and quarters of the world, wherein the Angelical trumpet hath been sounded ever since Christ's nativity. Was this, think you, an easy matter to shut the mouths of idols, and to translate the kingdom of God unto the Gentiles. Luther speaketh of Christ, and we Catholics speak also of Christ. Is Christ then * He is divided by you. divided? 1. Cor. 1. no surely, but either we preach a wrong Christ, or else he. How then shall we know who preacheth Christ aright? I will tell thee. Let him be true Christ, and on their side by whose bringing in Dagons' necks were broken. 1. Reg. 5. That Christ which is on our side was well content to use the service of men of our Church, when he expelled out of the hearts of so many people, such a number of jupiters', Mercuries, Diana's, Phebades, and an horrible dark rabble and lamentable hellishnes wherewith many in former time were oppressed. I have not respite to fetch matter out of far Countries. Let us then consider of such as either border upon us, or else are familiar with us at home. All these that follow sucked into their breasts either no faith at all, or the self same faith undoubtedly which we profess, that is, the Catholic faith; namely the Irish men from S. Patrick, the Scots from Palladius, and the English men from S. Austen, who were all consecrated Bishops at Rome, sent from Rome, and always used great reverence towards Rome. Cumulus testium. The matter is manifest; I run forward: witnesses hereof are all Universities, witnesses all written laws, witnesses are the common manners of all people every where in their own countries, witnesses are the fashions of choosing Emperors, and the solemn ceremonies used in their Coronation, witness are the ancient rites exercised in the anointing of Kings, witnesses are the orders practised in dubbing of Knights, and their very * Cloaks, cloaks. Also witnesss 〈◊〉 the Church windows, Church windows, gates of Cities, houses, all manner of things great and small, are wonderful testimonies. witnesses are the pieces of money, witnesses are the gates & houses of every City, witnesses are the worthy works and virtuous lives of our au●●●st●rs; finally, witnesses are all manner of things both great & small, & all kind of orders, that never any other religion but our catholic religion that ever took any deep root upon the face of the earth. When I saw myself guarded with all these helps, and felt myself comforted with the consideration thereof, I thought it a point of insolent folly, to forsake the great company of all these good Christians, and to join fellowship with the veriest rakehell's that live: therefore I confess that I was greatly animated and urged unto this scholastical combat; wherein, unless the saints be driven out of heaven, and proud Lucifer recover heaven again, I cannot take the fail. Wherefore I trust, M. Chark, who hath conceived so evil opivion of me heretofore, will yet now show me a more favourable countenance, in that I had rather commit in trust this sinful soul of mine, which Christ hath so dearly bought, to a safe and certain way, and unto the King's high way, then hang it upon the rocks and bushes of Calvin's devilish doctrine. The Conclusion. Here have you (most flourishing men of both the Universities) this my slender gift, composed at vacant times as I traveled: I minded herein both to acquit myself before you of arrogancy, and to answer your expectation, why I had so great a trust in this cause, and in the mean while to give you a taste of some reasons to find you eccupied until you may be invited to take my part in the Schools, and to forsake the adversaries. If you judge it to be right and reason, if you think it a safe thing for you, if you think it to be an honest point that * It is as meant that Luther and Caluin should be so accounted of, as the Pope. Luther and Caluine should be taken for the true Canon of Scripture, for the true meaning of the holy ghost, for the rule of the Church, for a Schoolmaster over all Counsels and Fathers, and lastly for a God, and therefore to be believed before all witnesses and ag●●. There is no cause then at all why I should conceive any good hope of your indifferency, either in perusing of these my ten reasons, or else in giving ear unto me if I might be allowed to dispute. But if you be such men as I have always persuaded myself that you were, I means wise Philosophers, very circumspect, and embracers of truth, simplicity and modesty, enemies to rashness, fables, and sophistical cavilling; then I doubt not but you which now spy a little light at a narrow chinek, will quickly see the day light in an open place: freely and frankly I will let you understand of that which the love I bear you, the danger you stand in, and the weightiness of the cause requireth. It is well known to the devil that you shall see the truth of this cause, if ever you begin to cast up your eyes. For what a senseless part were it to prefer such as Hanmer and Charke before the antiquity of all Christendom? * As though Popery had no baits by which it entangleth the professors of it. But there be certain pleasant baits in Luther's doctrine, wherewith he enlargeth his kingdom, with which baits he being first caught himself, hath entangled as many of your coat, as bite at the same baits. For what are these baits? forsooth gold, vainglory, delicate fare, and Venus' games. Despise them; for what are they else but the very offscum of the earth, a loud blast of wind, delicate worms meat, and fair dunghills▪ I say regard them not, for Christ is rich, who will not fail, but find you all things necessary. Christ is a King, and will adorn you. Christ is well stored with dainty fare, and will satisfy your appetites. Christ is most beautiful, and will plentifully bestow upon you great store of all felicities: adjoin yourselves as soldiers unto this Captain, that so gallantly goeth on warfare, that like most learned men indeed, and of most valour, with him at the last day you may triumph for the victory which you have obtained. Far you well. From the large City of the wide word. WILLIAM whitaker's. The answer to the tenth Reason, which is all manner of Witnesses. CAmpian, you are now low drawn and do plainly bewray your want and desperate beggary. Hitherto have you found no place of sure footing, and therefore now you have resolved to wander and run through whatsoever is in the world. So one while you fly aloft into heaven, by and by you slip down to hell: after you visit the jews, Pagans, Turks, Heretics, Lands, Seas Apostolic, Nations and Countries far remote, searching diligently for any monument of your superstition. I am sorry and ashamed on your behalf, whom I see painfully busied about mere trifles. For what a witless kind of reasoning is this; first to reckon up the Saints in Heaven, and say, these are ours? Then to number up the damned, jews, Gentiles, Turks, Heretics, and affirm those are the enemies of our Church? To rehearse those Countries that have been converted to the faith of Christ, and conclude by and by, these are of our Religion? would you take this man to be well in his wits, compassing Heaven, Earth and Hell so childishly, a DUR. If here he any thing ridiculous, then may you laugh at the Prophet, who a● speedily runs over the whole world. And S. Paul took a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet, Act. 17. 2●. WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be known by his creatures, & religion illustrated by nature uncorrupt? but what nature, I pray you, hath taught Camptan thus to judge of the heavenly spirits and the damned souls, and of the whole fr●me of things? can he learn by nature that those who have professed the Popish religion, do now enjoy heavenly happiness, and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell? These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withal, Ambros. Epist. 30. Prudent. contra Symmachum. ridiculously, and impertinently taking unto himself, what he liketh, and rejecting the rest? A worthy cavil, fit for none but jesuits, which when a man hath by one negative discharged, can never be proved by their perverse sect and whole society. These dreams of yours (Campian) are unworthy any answer, one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter. I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophism, so unhansomely framed, and patched together; it shall suffice lightly to pass, and only touch every thing in a word. First therefore you allege the prophecy of Esay, of a strait way wherein the simple should not err. b DUR. You show your ignorance in the Prophet; for he speaketh not of the way to the Church, but of the Church itself, which is the high way to heaven. WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoever you interpret the way, it maketh neither much for me, nor for you. The question is who shall find out that way and walk in it, for it is not discerned of all, because it is a plain way, nor held of all, because it is a right way: but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error, though he be but silly and unskilful. DUR. If this be so, then can it not be the true Church, which containeth sinners and men polluted. And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not cleansed by Baptism. WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints, because he saith vers. 8. The polluted shall not pass by it: and vers. 20. the redeemed only, whose joy shall be everlasting: but the visible Church containeth those which are impure, whom Christ hath not redeemed, and whose joy shall perish. As for Baptism it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free justification by Christ, as Tit. 3.5. Hear the Prophet describes the entrance into Christ's Church, viz. that it should be ready, plain and easy. But this way brings us not to your Church: c for of this way the Prophet reports, that no profane man, no Lion or cruel beast shall be found in it; whereas all your ways are compassed with polluted men, raging beasts, Lions, Bears, Leopards, Dragons, Devils; and in conclusion, they lead miserably bewitched men, unto woeful destruction. As for us, we tread that way, which Christ and his Apostles have traced out before us, we avoid your erroneous and strange ways, because it is the way of sinners, that you s●●●d in; which way whosoever treads, Psal. 1.1. Rom. 3.17. the way of pe●ce they have not known. First, understand the path well yourselves, and then direct the way unto us. Let us (say you) as●●●d into heaven: I fear you jesuits have no place there, Heaven is for Christians, not jesuits. But suppose yourselves for the time to be in heaven, what followeth? Let us behold (say you) the Martyrs▪ 33. Bishops of Rome slain together, the Universal Pastors, companies of the faithful, all holy Saints. Well, survey (Campian) heaven itself, and all the heavenly host, look well in all the parts, and coasts of it whiles you list, you shall not find there (upon my word) one jesuit not one Papist; for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb, Apoc. 14.1. that have received the mark of the beast, or belong unto Antichrist. But in heaven are 33. Bishops of Rome, and many more, I doubt not; but of all these, name me one, if you can, of your religion, whom you may justly claim as yours. Those were holy and faithful Bishops which shed their blood for the name of Christ. But your Popes for these many hundred years, what else have they done, but persecuted Christ, and murdered his true servants? If those 33. Bishops be in heaven (as doubtless they are) how many late Popes could I reckon up, which possibly cannot be where they are, in all things they are so unlike them? You pick out a few, let us see who these are: Ignatius, say you, was ours; why I pray you? He thought no man equal to the Bishop in causes ecclesiastical, not the King himself, and left in writing certain Apostolic traditions; neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office: d DUR. If these be so proper to Bishops, that they cannot belong to Kings, then, you being judge, the Queen cannot be the head of the English Church. WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church save Christ. And Prince though they may not do any of th●se 〈◊〉, yet they rule overthem, who do and aught to command them, diligently to execute their offices; which if they neglect, they ought to reprove, compel, and punish them, as we read the good Kings of the Church jewish and Christian have ever done: and the reason hath no force, Princes have no authority to preach, therefore they have no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people. He only ought to oversee holy things, viz. instruction of the people, administration of the Sacraments, use of the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These are matters of great weight, and exceed the kingly authority; yet are Kings above Bishops in wealth, honour, government, majesty, and they may lawfully both admonish them of their duty, and restrain them when they offend. If Bishops herein would equal themselves with Kings it were too intolerable. As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing, we receive them so far as they agree with the Apostolical Scripture: if they descent from those, we refuse them. The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfeit, as every man may see: here you rehearse many, and still the undersong is, these are ours: Telesphorus (say you) Ireneus, Victor, Polycarp, Cornelius, Cyprian, Sixtus, Laurentius, are ours. But I affirm that all these do belong unto us: let us then consider how you will persuade us they are yours. Telesphorus enjoined a more strict observation of Lent fast, appointed by the Apostles. e DUR. But I prove it by these witnesses, Augustine, Hierome, Basil, Ambrose, Epiphanius, Clemen●. WHIT. pag. 862. And I prove the contrary by the Fathers. August. Epist. ●6. writeth plainly that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certain time for fastings. And so not Lent. Tertul. adver. Psychicos: In times past Christians indifferently fasted, of their own free will, as every man's time and occasions required, and not by any command of new government. Doth not this overthrow the necessary observation of Lent? Chryso. in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command us to imitate his fast. But what is Lent but an imitation of it? Further, Montanus was the first who brought up set solemn days of fastings, Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally, Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. showeth that in the Primitive Church, there was great variety about the keeping of this fast, and that this difference began not in his time only, but was long before. Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Forty days. I deny that the Apostles ordained any such Len●en fast, or that Telesphorus, commanded a more precise observation thereof. The Apostles were far from ordaining, and Telesph●rus from reviving so great superstition. Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported, are not sufficient authority. But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles, I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued, so as it should be necessary for Telesphorus to enjoin the keeping of it more precisely, especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter. The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commands the 7. weeks fast, hath the same authority with the rest of your decretal epistles of your Pope, which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselves, but coined since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome. Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus (say you) declared the Apostolic faith from the succession and sea of Rome. So he might well then: for as Ireneus elsewhere saith, They retained with the succession of Bishops, the gracious succession of truth: for succession is nothing worth without truth. Your Chair and Sea hath Bishoply succession; it hath not the succession of truth. Victor (say you) by his edict subdued Asia. He endeavoured it indeed (Campian) but failed of his purpose: for being a man very passionate, he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keep Easter according to the Roman custom. When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority, f DUR. Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia. WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wri●eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholic Bishops sharply reproved him for assuming that power. Ireneus tamed and restrained him. As for the controversy about Easter, Victor was so far from composing and ending it, that it continued unto the g DUR By the same reason you may say the Counsels decree prevailed nothing to endi●●● controversy. WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good, & proveth that when he could prevail neither by examples, reasons, nor threatenings, that those Churches did not accounted Pope Victor for the head of the Church. And though after that Council of Nice, some Churches observed the Passeover after another manner, yet the most Churches followed the judgement and authority of the Council. So the Council prevailed more than the Pope could do. Council cell of Nice. You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia. Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome, Smyrna gathered his relics. Wonderful reasons. Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter, and Smyrna gathered his relics; ergo Polycarpe is yours. Doth not the learned Universities make you ashamed of this childish sophistry? h DUR. Envy maketh you forge an untruth. And while. for eunie you pine away a● the honour which is given of Christians to the relics of Martyrs, you imitate the Jews and the Devil. WHIT. pag. 865. I have spoken neither less nor more than Eusebius hath written who than lived▪ After we had gathered his banes being more precious than pearls and gold, we buried them where it was thought sit. And as for the relics of Saints, I envy them not, the Saints themselves I ever honourably remember. But that the relics of Saints were worshipped with religious honour, as they are in your Church, you shall never be able to prove. His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna, not to worship them, but to bury them, as Eusebius in the same place recordeth. But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours? forsooth, because Cornelius abolished the ⁱ African error, and Cyprian had him in great reverence. Oh wonderful jesuitical Logic l DUR. His supreme authoritia appeareth in this, because he decreed that controversy, being not the Bishop of Africa, but of Rome. WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia, Co●inth, Rome and divers others, yet was he never supreme Bishop. So did Augustine: But what error did he suppress? was it touching Baptism by heretics; that he never could do, but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africa constantly held it: which proved they never acknowledged that he had any such authority. who can choose but be much moved with such strong reasons? But let us hear another. Sixtus is ours: and why so? Seven of the Clergy ministered unto him, while he served at the altar. Seven Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper, ergo Sixtus is yours. If this reason be of force, let him be yours hardly, I will not strive with you about him; but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DUR. Pope Sixtus a Priest, offered up the body and blood of Christ, Deacons assisting of him could not be a Caluinist, but on our side. WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons, who help the Minister when he celebrateth the Lord's Supper? ours as yours. Doth it become you (Campian) thus to trifle, thus to abuse our patience? What followeth? Laurence is yours: how so I pray you? Our adversaries have cast him out of their Calouder. We remember him with reverence as a saint, and a friend of Christ; though we worship him not as God. But Prudentine prayed unto him a thousand years ago. Give leave (Campian) to a Poet, to use poetical aversions, from whence yet no strong reason can be drawn. But if Prudentius were something too superstitious, what is that to us? Now you reckon up virgins, C●cilia, Agatha, and others: but what have they done why they should not be ours? When the Tyrants examined them of their faith, they professed themselves Christians: if they were Christians, they were ours. But Helen, say you, was ours, who is every way famous for finding the cross of Christ. That which Ambrose reports of Helen, is very suspicious, and Golasius Bishop of Rome calleth these things that were bruited of the invention of the cross, Dill. 15. Sanct. Romana. new revelations. But grant that Helen found the Cross, for it is not greatly material: Did she adore it? for that is to the purpose. Hear what Ambrose saith: She found the style, Ambros. in Orat. suneb. Theodos. she worshipped the King, not the wood certainly: for this is a heathenish error, and a vanity of the wicked. Wherefore though she found the Cross, that is no reason to prove her yours, seeing she worshipped not the cross, as you do: for not finding, but adoring of the l DUR. We give not Latria divine worship to the Cross. WHIT pag. 868. The distinction will not excuse you, for you reach that the Cross and the Image of Christ, is to be worshipped with Latria or divine worship, Thom. 3. part. 25. q. act. 3. & 4. which is so horrible and pernicious, that it exceedeth all the superstition of old Idolaters. Cross makes a Papist. Monica is ours, who at her death desired they should pray, and offer sacrifice for her at Christ's altar. Monica desired not that the m DUR. She desired to be sacrificed for, and what other sacifice is there, but the sacrifice of the Altar, to take away the hand a ritive against us. WHIT. pag. 870. That I have answered in Augustine's 〈◊〉 words, Confess. lib. 9 cap. 13. he only desired to be remembered at the Altar. It was a custom in the Church to make honourable mention of the patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, the Virgin Mary, the Martyrs, and Confessors, whom they never thought to be tormented in Purgatory; but your Mass is offered for those, whom you think as yet not to be freed from that fire, and to be in heavenly joys. And what a kind of sacrifice it was, Augustine showeth in the same place, saying: Thy hand maiden kuit her soul by the bond of faith, to the Sacrament of that price of our redemption. He calleth then the Eucharist a sacrifice which taketh away the hand-writing against us, because it is the Sacrament of that sacrifice. sacrifice of the Mass should be offered for her, for the forgiveness and expiation of her sins, neither did Augustine either pray or offer for his mother in this manner. The desire of Monica was only this, that at the celebration of the Eucharist there might always be a remembrance of her, insomuch as she assured herself she was one of the heavenly society and community of saints. Augustine indeed prayed for his mother, I deny not; but this his fact proceeded more of affection to his mother then for any necessity. And the custom of prayer for the dead, which prevailed in many places, was not derived from the authority of the scriptures, but only from an excessive kind of love and reverence of them that lived, towards their friends that were dead. But that Augustine never believed his mother to be in Purgatory, that his prayers might relieve her there, it is manifest; for thus he saith, forgive her Lord, forgive her, I beseech thee, August. confess. lib. 9 cap. 13. enter not into judgement with her o Lord, yea o Lord, I believe thou hast already granted that which I desire, but accept o Lord the free-will offerings of my mouth. But if we should grant that both Augustine and his mother went a little awry, you cannot here infer that either of them are yours, for so much as we are not to give censure of the Fathers (in greatest causes) by one particular judgement, but by their continual and constant opinion. You annex hereunto Paula and Paulus, Hilarian and Authony. I could reckon six hundred Monks like unto these, whereof not one was a Papist, none of them yours. All these were Christian's loving solitariness, that they might more quietly intend the meditation of heavenly things. Compare not your Monks with these, which are of an other sort, and sect of Monks. These were holy, painful, faithful, full of good works: yours are impure, idle, idolatrous, devourers, hogs, oxen, asles: how are those like? But how shall it appear unto us that Satyrus the brother of Ambrose was yours? Being in danger, he leapt into the sea and swimming escaped by the strength of his faith. A goodly reason; he was a good smimmer, ergo n DUR But which of you did any such thing armed thing armed with the Caluinist Supper? WHIT. pag. 872. And which of you armed with the Host, durst cast himself into the sea, unless he had learned first to swim? And at that time Satyrus was not only saved, but also others who had not the Host. yours: other pretence you make none. Why Nicholas and Martinus should be yours, you show no cause, for wearing haircloth, fasting and watching, are no marks of your Bishops. Benedict (say you) was the founder and father of the Monkish profession, therefore without doubt he must be yours. I could be content to leave him, as too superstitious, yet can you not prove that he was yours, or favoured your religion in all or the most things. Hear you say you pass over thousands, Francis I think you mean, and Dominicke, and those huge swarms of white Friars and black Friars: I freely bequeath them unto you, and willingly suffer you to enjoy them, and all such as were like them. They were not of that worth that we should need greatly to strive about them. You pass over the Doctors in silence, which you formerly remembered; wherein I commend your wisdom, seeing to them you can make no claim without doing them too apparent wrong. You demand of all those before recited, whether they were Catholics or Lutherans; to which I will answer, when you have showed how Lutheranisme dissenteth from true Catholic religion. Luther taught no new doctrine, he restored and maintained the ancient Catholic faith. What though he was unknown unto those ancient Fathers, as being himself of later years, yet the doctrine he brought was evangelical and Apostolic, which you had well-nigh extinguished, which he restored to his former beauty and perfection. Answer me (Campian) this one thing; of all those you have named, what one was a o DUR. But all these did ever consent in faith and differed only in such things which might be disputed without any hazard of faith. WHIT. pag. 873. Be it granted, they did agree in matter of faith: why then do they not follow all one rule? But S. Paul reproved the Corinthians agreeing in faith, because they attributed to their Ministers more than was meet, whilst one had devoted himself to S. Paul, another to S. Peter, another to Apollo. What then shall be done to the Scotistes, Thomists & others? are the names of Scotus, Thomas, Francis more holy and lawful names in their disciples, than the names of S. Peter, S. Paul, and of Apollo? Besides the difference is very great, not in the name, but in things also As thus Let the question be whether the Cross and Image of Christ be to be worshipped with the same kind of worship that Christ is adored withal? Doth not this appertain to faith? But error in this will be plain Idolatry. And yet you know some of the Schoolmen stand for it, some against i●: what of that question, which hath exercised all Churches and Schools so long; Whether the Virgin Marie had original sin, or was ever pure and without spot? And infinite such differences I omit, being matter of faith. Thomist, Scotist, Dominican, Franciscan, or jesuite? when you have answered me touching those, I will answer as touching Luther. You call the Throne of God to witness, that if there be any heaven at all, it is proper to you. In any case avouch this boldly and confidently; though he that looks into your lines may well think there is no heaven at all. For neither will you enter into heaven yourselves, nor suffer those that would; and the lives of those of your side are such, as are far fit for hell then for heaven. I know not (Campian) what heaven you dream of; if you mean the eternal habitation of God, and his Saints, I take God to witness the maker of this palace, and all the heavenly citizens, that there no place can be for you Papists, false Catholics, jesuits. As you have devised a new faith whereby you must enter thither, so must you seek a new heaven; in this you may not be. God grant you may return at length into the right way that leadeth into heaven. Now being fallen from heaven, The damned. you look into hell. I wish (Campian) you could seriously view those infernal regions and places of the damned; for though I do willingly think nothing but well of the dead; yet I fear you should find too too many of them that have flourished in your Church, in those places. Certainly (to say nothing of the rest) your later Popes, as those which were called by the names of Boniface, Innocent, Silvester, Gregory, Calixt, Urban, Alexander, Adrian, Pius, Leo, Paul, & almost all the rest; were such, as hardly can any man think they could enter into heaven. And further, I call Christ the only teacher of heavenly doctrine to record, that such is your faith and religion, that who so maintains it fully and wholly, cannot reign with Christ, nor be partaker of that heavenly life; and therefore not jews only, Pagans, Turks, and notorious Heretics are tormented in that fire that never goes out, but Papists also, of all Heretics the most vile and odious. Infinite are the souls of Christian men, which have been thrown headlong into this most woeful destruction these many hundred years by that Antichrist of yours, who alone hath more enlarged that infernal kingdom, than all jews, Nerves, Mahomet's, Arians, Nestorians, Macedonians, Eutychians, and the rest. To you (Campian) I wish that salvation which consists in the true knowledge of God, and whom he hath sent jesus Christ, and desire from my heart that now at length you will renounce that Roman Antichrist, with whom you have conversed, and return unto Christ the only giver of eternal life, from whom too long you have banished yourself. But let us consider what these damned ones will further your cause. Jews. The jews you begin with, and here you reckon Jerusalem, holy places, our saviours Sepulchre, the Manger, Cross, and other 〈◊〉 from all which you cannot draw one argument for your purpose. I deny not, but great concourse of people thronged unto the City, partly to hear and see the Apostles whiles they lived, and also to behold those places, where Christ the Son of God had conversed; and at jerusalem were many things, which might move and persuade men to go thither, that were any thing curiously inclined. And although the Church then was too much addicted to these observations, and as a Spouse exceedingly delighted with any remembrance of her deceased husband, yet was she then far from those superstitious p DUR. We do but imitate our fore fathers, who did such things not of curiosity but religiously, Hier. Epist. ad Macel & Pailon. August. Epist. ad Clerum & Pop. Hipp. WHIT. pag. 878. But Christ saith, Joh. 4.21.23. If then I may worship God with great fruit in mine own country, I see not why I should go to Jerusalem or any other place on Pilgrimage. And if I have the authority of the Scriptures, object not unto me Hierom, or Augustine, or any other, whom I cannot allow to speak without Scripture against Scripture. And as for Fathers, know you not that Gregory Nyssen hath with pregnant reason confuted all superstitious peregrinations? w●it not Bernard; Monks must search for the heavenly not earthly Jerusalem, which they must go unto not by their feet, but by affections? pilgrimages, and dote on Images, which with you Papists is now usual. Neither was this often recourse of Christians into those places the cause of the jews hatred unto them, as you untruly surmise; but the Gospel was the true cause of difference betwixt them and us. Rom. 11.28 They urge Moses; we teach that Moses must give place to Christ; q DUR. They hate us not so much for our faith and profession, as because we have spoiled them of their kingdom and Priesthood, and have cast them out of their country. WHIT. pag. 877. But what Christian ever spoiled the jews of their kingdom, or thus expelled them? Did Caligula, Titus, or Adrian destroy the jews for the religion of Christ? And if they hated you, because you have bereft them of their Priesthood, why not us for the Gospel, which teacheth that the Priesthood is translated from the posterity of Aaron unto Christ? from hence only proceeds their hatred unto us: but you are odious unto them in many respects; r DUR Many Jews have become Catholics, but not Caluinists, as Jever heard of. WHIT. pag. 878. We desire they might be made Christians not Caluinists, as our Churches hath many of them, I will 〈◊〉 you one, of whom it were strange you should not have heard, Emanuel Tre●●lius a jew borne, being brought to the religion of Christ, whom Caluin loved dearly, and his Catechism he translated into the Hebrew tongue. your manifold idolatries continually hindering them from receiving the Gospel of Christ. Remove your idols, that we all that are called Christians, may worship God in spirit and truth. The jews than will join themselves unto us, and will speedily in great multitudes betake themselves to the sheepfold of Christ. The jews complain they have been destroyed by your Ancestors; whom mean you, the Romans who razed the City under the conduct of Titus? These were enemies of the faith of Christ: will you be their posterity, or what other Ancestors have you, that have been author of so great calamity unto the jews? They have, I grant, many things in their religion, which will ever alienate them from you: yet in many respects the jews are much beholding unto you; so as unless they will incur the suspicion of great unthankfulness, they must love you again deservedly. For you give them leave to use their ancient Ceremonies, and that in Rome, and freely to utter their blasphemies against Christ without blame; so they pay tribute, they have impunity for all their sacrileges and blasphemies. The Lutherans (say you) never opposed themselves against them, neither did they ever receive any damage from the jesuits. Heathens. You proceed to Heathens, among whom you affirm those were most violent which devised the most grievous torments for Christians. I will easily grant, that those Tyrants that killed and murdered the Christians for the space of 300. years, were violent and outrageous above measure. What of this? These (say you) that were thus drawn unto all kinds of torment that could be devised, These were the fathers and children of our faith. Nothing less (Campian:) this should have been sound proved, not barely affirmed. No likeness or affinity of faith or works can be found betwixt you and them, so far are they from being your fathers, or you their children. For as our Saviour said to the jews, If you were the children of Abraham, joh. 8.39. you would do the works of Abraham; so if these had been your fathers (as you say) & you their children, you should have resembled them as your fathers. But beware (Campian) lest that which follows agree more fitly unto you; You are of your father the Diu●ll. Joh. 8.88. These holy Fathers if they were now living, would disclaim you from being their offspring, so little you resemble them in any thing. Be ashamed at length to call yourselves their posterity, from whom you have so foully degenerated; or if the name please you, endeavour that it may be proper unto you. But to what purpose make you mention of that Tyrant that broiled Laurence on a Gridyroul and why repeat you all these verses out of Prudentius? He speaks indeed of gold and silver and torches; what of all this? Torches were needful in the night season, at which time the Christians then used to meet, because they durst not assemble on the day, but to s DUR. Yet was this a most ancient custom: as divers do testify, and they were kindled then to show that the sight of faith ought to be kindled in the mind. WHIT. pag. 879. That which was done in the night, came in time to be done at noon day, I deny not: but I inquire by what Scripture, or what reason: as for your invented mystery, I say this is the way to fill all places with ●ignes, figures, and foolish mysteries. But I can easily pardon you, whose ignorance and blindness of mind is so great, that no light is sufficient for you. light candles (as you do) at noon days, is mere madness. The accusation laid against him by the Tyrant, of gold, silver, plate, and sums of money, was t DUR. Yea your answer is false and feigned for it was true which the Tyrant objected to Laurence. WHIT. pag. 880. Is it like that the Church being under Tyrants could abound with such riches of silver and gold? But at the very same time their poverty appeareth. For Gratian de Co●sp●●ra. Dist. 1. c. v●s●. bringeth in Boniface affirming that in time passed they had golden Priests, and wooden Chalices. And Xepherinus the sixteenth Bishop of Rome, did ordain that Mass should be celebrated in dishes made of glass. Pope Vrb●●e was the first who made all the ministering dishes of silver, and so in this as in other things, by success of time the glory of Churches increased. forged. He had heard that the Christians had a great mass of gold and silver, and concealed treasure, and being exceeding earnest after it, he sends for Laurence, and commands him to bring him that money. But where (Campian) was the plate of gold and silver which he brought unto the Tyrant? what Cups, vessels or treasures did he bewray. The Church did not then abound in wealth, neither had they then such plenty of golden basins, silver chalices, costly hangings, or any other great and precious treasure. They had then wooden dishes, but golden Bishops and Priests; but now (as Boniface said truly) we 〈◊〉 golden vessels, Bonifac. de Consc. dist. 1. vasa. wooden Priests; neither doth he therein play the Lutherans, as you play the Papist, Campian. These Nimrods' & Church-robbers came not out of Luther's school; those that made greatest spoil of the Church came from you, not us. Against this Tyrant you oppose Constantine, and make a needless digression in his commendation, rather to fill up room, then frame a reason. For to what end rehearse you these things; Constantine quieted the Church, was baptised by Silvester Bishop of Rome, used the sign of the cross, had Helen to his mother, joined himself to the Fathers of Nice, commended himself to the prayers of Anthony, chose the lowest place in the Synod, ergo, what will you infer? From this lose ware cannot you evince your Church to be the true Church, unless you strain them very violently. Constantin●● indeed brought peace unto the Church in her most troublesome time, and adorned and honoured it with all the preferments and possessions he could, and since his time, as she increased in wealth, so she decreased in piety. Whereas you say, that Constantine sent for Silvester from Soracte, that he might be baptised by him with our baptism, you might better have said, that Silvester was fetched from heaven to baptise Constantine, for Silvester died many years before Constantine was baptised, as is manifest out of u DUR. You know the first of your authors and witnesses was an Arian; and him the rest follow. WHIT. pag. 881. It is incredible to think he would lie in so famous a thing, which might so easily be proved to the contrary. And if he had been baptized at Rome, as you say, it is like the other three would ha●● come to the knowledge of it by some means, & have preferred the credit of the thing, before the lie of Eusebius. As for your witnesses they are not to be compared with these of ours. Eusebius, Socrates, Theodorus, Z●zomen, Euseb. lib. 4. de vita Constant. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 39 Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 31 Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 34. who have recorded the baptism of Constantine to have been not while he was young, but in his age, not by Silvester of Rome, but by Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian Bishop. Now Silvester was extreme old when Constantine was a young man. He used the sign of the cross which he had seen in the air as an Ensign, declaring himself thereby the soldier of Christ, and an enemy of Tyrants. But that he worshipped or adored this cross, you shall never approve. As concerning his * DUR. What can be spoken more foolishly? WHIT. pag. 881. And yet what is my folly, which was not the folly of Eusebius and Sozomen: for Eusebius who was present at the same Synod, writeth that Constantine in the first rank sat down in a golden chair. And Sozomen saith there was a throne prepared for him, and that a great one, and above all the other. place in the Council it skilleth not greatly: for what if he chose the lowest seat amongst the Bishops? Euseb. lib. 3. de vita Constant. Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 19 but you think he did it rather forced by necessary duty then moved by voluntary humility: mark then what Eusebius writes. When he was come to the chief place, he stood up in the midst of the assembly, and there, when a little seat made of gold was brought for him, he sat down. Hear you see that Constantine sat in the highest place, a seat of gold, which was the chiefest, and above all the rest, as Z●zomen relates. But these your proofs are passing strange, they strengthen the cause of your Pope excellently well. Now you pass forward unto the Turks, Turks. wherein you do too manifestly bewray your ignorance in history. For the Turkish government never less prevailed, then since Luther began to publish the Gospel: Before he did overrun, and like a troublous sea break into all Countries, with a furious and unresisted violence. But since Luther like a good husbandman began to sow the seed of the Gospel, this raging sea hath as it were retired or stood still, and contained itself within his own bounds. Vicuna was kept by the Lutherans, and assaulted by Solyman, but he returned with loss and with shame; and prove if you can, that ever the Christians became weak, or the Turks stronger by their default. The Letters which you pretend, as written from Solyman to Luther, might with better reason have been sent to the Pope: for the Turks are beholding to none more than your Pope, as they well know; and unless they will be unthankful, they will ever acknowledge it. For if as our Saviour Christ saith, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, than the breaking of the strength of the Empire, and weakening the power of Christians, and consequently strengthening the Turks, all must be imputed to him which rent and divided the Roman and Christian Empires, and of one kingdom made two: As long as the provinces and dominions of the Empire were united, we were strong enough against the Turks; but after Pope Leo the 3. divided the Empire, the Emperor of Constantinople which before had much ado to resist the Turk, was now no longer able to sustain the burden, wanting the greatest part of his Empire. There is then no reason why the Turk should thank Luther, but the Pope rather, as he hath good cause. It were too long to rehearse all the intercourse which hath passed betwixt the Pope and the Turk: let us now hear the conclusion. They are (say you) only professed enemies to us. Certainly they have infested them of the Greek church more than the Latin. So that if they be the best Christians that are most persecuted by the Turks, the Grecians must go before you. Whereas you add something of Altars and Images, know you that the Idolatry of your Church is so great, that the Turks themselves are ashamed, and therefore they break, and evil entreat your Images and Idols wheresoever they find them. Now you come to Heretics, the lees, bellows, Heretics. and fuel of hell fire. As long as there wants no Papists this fire will want no fuel. The first you meet with is Simon Magus. Indeed your Church is something more indebted to this Simon then the other: but what of him? He denied free-will unto man, and bragged of faith alone. Where find you that? tell us Campian, for this is not affirmed by Ireneus or Clemens in the places alleged; he thought that all things came to pass by destiny, and an inevitable necessity, whereby he utterly abolished man's free-will: x DUR. If you be a Caluinist, than this must needs be your doctrine, when as Caluin had so taken away all freedom, that he hath brought a necessity greater than Stoics fate. WHIT. pag. 882. I am a Christian, you a jesuite; Caluin, as you well know, never took away the freedom of will, unless you reason thus: the will of man is not free in good things, before it be regenerate by the spirit of God, therefore there is no freedom of the will at all; which verily hath no strength of consequent in it. We hold no such opinion. Neither did he boast of sole faith (as you say:) but this was his opinion, that from the doctrine of justification by grace and faith, he let loose the rains to all impiety & dishonesty: where do we defend any such things? Novatianus would himself be Bishop of Rome, and opposed himself to Cornelius the lawful Bishop, hoping by force to get the Bishopric. What is this to us? But he was an enemy to the two Sacraments of penance and extreme unction. y DUR. It was not for this, but because he took away the Sacrament of Penance, in which Priests do pardon sin. WHIT. pag. 882. Whether Penance was a Sacrament or no, was not the thing in question betwixt Novatus and the Catholics, but whether there was any place for repentance left unto those that did sin, that the Minister might assure them of remission of sins, if they repent: we grant that this power is given to the Ministers of the Gospel; therefore we are far from the error of Novatus. He denied pardon and repentance to them that fell in persecution. Herein he was an enemy of repentance. Our case in far different, which exclude no true penitent from hope of pardon. Manos wholly rejected baptism, as unprofitable and not necessary. Do we affirm any such thing? We z DUR. You take from Baptism all power to remit sins and confirre grace as the Manic●es do. And ye Caluinists deny that the deed done doth confirre grace to them who believe. WHIT. pag. 883. We believe and teach that in Baptism sins are forgiven, which the manichees usually deny. Therefore we differ much from them. And as for the invention of the deed done we reject it, even in those who are endued with faith, for what need have we of any such invention, that grace is conferred and giue● by the deed done, if faith be not wanting? deny (indeed) that baptism confers grace to the unbeliever by the work wrought: he denied it to be profitable at all: are we like him? Austen and Epiphanius account Aerius for an Heretic, so did few of the ancient Fathers besides these. And if to condemn prayers for the dead, Hierou. ad evag. & in 1. Tit. and make equal a Priest with a Bishop be heretical, what shall be Catholic? Hierome was altogether of Aerius his mind, about equality of Priests; for he determines them to be equal with Bishops by God's law. This was not that Aerius, Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 35. whom they usually called Atheist, but an other, Aetius; the likeness of the names deceived you. To that you objected concerning Vigilantius and jovinian, an answer is formerly given; a DUR. You speak wittily, but you must of necessity do the one. WHIT. pag. 884. If they have defended any thing against the Scriptures, they are heretics; but if not, they cannot be condemned by the judgement of any Church. for my part, I neither mean to defend them, nor can I greatly accuse th●m. If they were heretics, convince them of some error they held against the scriptures: Hieromes passions can make no man an heretic. Now you bring in the swarm of heretics, Macedonians, Pelagians, Nestorians, Eutychians, the M●●otholites, and Iconomaches. These first we hate as hell itself; those last have committed nothing deserving the name of heretics. To set up and worship Images is heretical, but not to overthrow them. What you judge touching Luther and Caluin● is nothing material: whiles they lived they nothing regarded you, now they are dead they despise you, what will you conclude at length from this heretical company? A●● these (you say) forsook the government of your Church, and were overthrown by them. Nay Campian, these were your forefathers, and you their progeny and successors: for your monster of Popery hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies. But you now appear out of hell, Lands. and are come to land, and wheresoever you cast your eyes or thoughts, All is your own (as you say) all subject themselves, and subscribe to your religion. Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant, who standing by the sea, and beholding the ships, cried out, all he saw was his own; otherwise such senseless dreams could not proceed, but from a wit and judgement exceedingly weakened. Sedes Apostolica. For (say you) the Roman succession witnesseth, in which Church (as Austen speaketh) the Primacy of the Apostolic chair hath always had the pre-eminence. Many causes there were, why special account in times past should be made of the church of Rome, especially for that Rome was the seat of the Empire, as approved in the Council held at Constantinople. Concil. Constantinop. 1. cap. 5. b DUR. Why then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be over all other Bishops, and so the Prince of Priests, the chief Priest, and supreme head of the rest? WHIT. pag. 885. Because authority and dominion is not proper to them who are more excellent than others; which may be showed by infinite examples. Who can be ignorant that the tribe of judah was the chief, the first and the Prince of the other tribes? will it therefore follow that the head of the principal family in this tribe had authority over all other tribes? Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers, Homer of Poets, Hypocrates of Physicians, Apelles of Painters: did they therefore exercise authority over all the rest of the same profession? So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest, yet it never had domination and rule over the rest of the Churches of Christ. I grant therefore tha●●his Church was accounted the supreme, chief, greatest, and the principal, preferred before other Churches. Trow you hence to conclude, the Bishop of Rome is the chief and principal Bishop or head of the Church? Concil. Carthag. 3. cap. 26. Dist. 99 prima sedis. Austen himself forbid it in the Council of Carthage, viz. that the Bishop of the chief Sea should not be called Prince of Priests, or any like title. Although then the holy Fathers for divers respects gave the pre-eminence to the church of Rome, yet ●●d they never acknowledge c DUR. This prohibition was given by the Fathers, because they knew that a● the sovereignty of the Apostolic Chair did ever flourish in the Roman Church, so they did not doubt but the manner of the chief Priest did appertains only to the Bishop of Rome. WHIT. pag. 885. Nay, the prohibition of the Council did as well concern the Bishop of Rome, whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chief seat, as the Bishops of other Seas. Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Council, and was content with his names and refused to be called the sovereign chief Priest. that infinite p●●●●●●●ll authority which he now challengeth, neither ●●d other Apostolic Churches, whether they were founded by the Apostles themselves, or by some of their scholars, yield any testimony of truth to the church of Rome. Hear you stick in a quagmire, and ●●e feign by entreaty to beg that which by strong reason you should prove and cannot. But you urge further, and recount the Pastors of several countries, to wha● end I pray you. The remainder●, say you, of the labours of all those that have published the Gospel in all nations farrs and wide, all, present unto us this same religion which Cathol●kes at this day profess. What could be affirmed more weakly? for the Greeians are opposite unto you, which unto this time have their succession of Bishops not interrupted. And further, the spyer which you send in your new found lands, have found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we maintain, Os●rius. neither may you prefer us before them, at least afore all, you ought to prefer the truth, Aristot. as the Philosopher saith. But if you think your Popes and other glorious titles more ancient than the Gospel, what can you allege why Christ should not deny you to belong to him, seeing you value any thing more than him. Hear you tell us of Princes, Princes. Kings, C●sars, Emperors, and make a goodly show of names, as your manner is. At length you mention our noble Queen Elizabeth, and will needs teach her, her duty. But she, Campian, needs no such Masters, ●say 48. or instructiors. She knoweth herself to be the nursing mother of the Church, and that by divine dispensation, and accordingly doth she with all watchfulness and care procure the good thereof, and labours by all possible diligence to prevent all dangers intended by you and your adherents. You say of Caluine and these Princes, 〈◊〉 you have spoken, th●● 〈◊〉 heaven can no● contain them. But it passes your skill to pronounce certainly hereof, nay your Pope himself cannot with all his might pull Calui●● out of heaven, not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth. As for you and your fellows, we wish you not the gallows, but salvation. I desire to hope the best of you; and I doubt not but you might attain to the knowledge of the truth in controversy betwixt us, if for the time you could lay aside all prejudicate opinions, and consult with the word of God, and the holy Fathers of the Church. As for the society of jesus, whereunto you are admitted, it braggeth that it is wholly at the Pope's dispensation, and loves Gregory the 13. too well, to love Queen Elizabeth any thing at all, who is so far differing from him. Nations converted to Christ. You proceed, and produce the utmost coasts and countries of the world to testify for you: you should distinguish ancient and later times. For grant that the whole world had conspired with the Pope against Christ (which it hath not) that is no advantage to you, nor prejudice to us: d DUR. You had spoken better, if you had said that he forsakes the Gospel, who affirmeth that the whole world conspire● against Christ. O miserable Caluinists, who cannot defend their saith otherwise, than by bereaving Christ of his kingdom, and the whole christian world of faith! WHIT. pag. 886. This is very true you say: but Duraeus, did we ever speak after this manner? Will you keep your custom of railing and slandering▪ even to the last act? Nay rather, O miserable Duraeus, who blinded with malice and ignorance, doth not feel your own misery? Not the whole world, but your Synagogue which is but a small part of the whole world, hath conspired against Christ. And is it to be feared, lest Christ should lose his kingdom, and the world faith, if your shaveling with his whole rabble fall from the Gospel? Though you be perfidious and wicked, yet God will remain always faithful and true. whosoever forsakes the Gospel, he is necessarily divided from the Church. To put to silence the oracles of the heathen Idols, and carry the name of Christ unto the Gentiles, was no doubt a great work, and a divine work: but that is none of your work, for you have filled the world with Idols, and as much as in you lay, overturned the kingdom of Christ. The Idols of the he●●●en have been o●e●●●owne, and the kingdom of God enlarged by the Apostles and Apostolic men; ●●●e ●●e o●e Papist, or one jesuit amongst these. For the jesuits, which assay to make new kingdoms amongst the Indians, serve not Christ, but the Pope: not do they enlarge the kingdom of Christ, but they prepare for the Pope a kingdom far from the Lutherans, where he may reign after he shall be banished from these countries. c DUR. You set upon our society, and say we have divided Christ. Because certain men have chosen unto them this name above all others, to be accounted of the society of jesus; because they have consecrated themselves wholly to advance this name, must they therefore of necessity divide Christ? have not you Christ College in Oxford? WHIT. pag. 8●6. I will not strive much with you about your society, of which I ●●●e very small account. If you have for some special consideration dedicated yourselves unto Christ, what is that consideration? why do you not tell us what jesus requireth of you, which all other Christians are not bound to do? If the order of your profession require that you propagate honour, and magnify the name jesus, if for this all Christians ought not to labour, at least Bishops, and specially your Pope: and if they be jesuits who do this, why ●re not all your Divines, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes jesuits? It may be this care is far from them. Whereas then name● are for distinguishing of things, they be needless and vain, when there i● no difference in the thing. Either show us what is the proper & peculiar duties of jesuits, or confess that without any cause you have appropriated such a ●●me unto them. In Cambridge aswell ●s in Oxford we have both Christ and jesus College: but they that li●e in those Colleges are called only Christians. Think you that because there are many Colleges different in names, there are many different Orders & professions of men? In places distinctions of names are necessary and without danger, unless some schism may hap betwixt the w●ls. Have you no other thing to say for your sect & society? You ask, is Christ divided? I answer, you jesuits have divided him, else why have you separated jesus from Christ, and leaving the ancient ordinary names of Christians, which you scorn as too common, you desire rather to be called jesuits, a new name of your own framing, than Christians? As though there were some society of jesus appropriated to one kind of men separated from other Christians; If there be, then is Christ divided, if not, than you jesuits are too impudent to devise a new society. You say either we or he preach a wrong Christ. This of necessity must be so. But Luther preached the true Christ, storm the Pope never so much: look then what jesus, what Christ you have amongst you? the true Christ it is not. I beseech you, Campian, for Christ's sake consider well whom you have forsaken, to whom you have betaken you, into what danger you have cast yourself. But you will tell us who is the true Christ, I listen to hear it: let him b● true Christ, and on their side, by whose bringing in Dagons' neck was broken. With a good will. Christ by us preached, hath within these few years thrown down an infinite sort of your Dagons: for so soon as Christ accompanied with his Gospel got footing in any place, your Dagons out of hand fell down, and had not only their arms and legs broken, but necks also. Patrick in Ireland, and Palladius in Scotland, what they were I mean not to search. We Englishmen, I grant, received much good by Austen the Monk, and much evil also and superstition which he brought in with him. It is plain that we had received the Christian faith in Britain many ages before his coming hither. How it was by him increased or hindered, I will not say. But he lived six hundred years after Christ; which as I judge was not the purest time of the Church, but as others affirm, the age was most corrupt. Now to conclude, because to prosecute all were infinite, you gather a heap of witnesses together, the Universities, written laws, the common fashions of all people, choice of Emperors, kingly rites, orders of Knighthood, habits, church windows, coins, gates, houses, all things great and small, unto all which I answer in a word, if an Angel from heaven should preach unto us an other Gospel then that which Christ hath taught, the Apostles published, our Churches now profess, we would reject and detest it, much less do we stand upon these toys of yours, and ma●●ers of ●o●om●nt. The flourishing Universities, ancient law●, and i● all kinds, monuments of great antiquity, all these afford unto us an open testimony of the truth we profess. Thus have we heard your tenfold Apology, wherein I perceive you have bestowed no small diligence; how you have therein prevailed, I leave the judgement to others. If you have satisfied none more therein than our University men, I can assure you, you have lost your labour, and are disappointed of your hope. For my own part though in this case I profess myself your adversary, yet your person (Campian) I love as far as a Christian may love a jesuite. And I pray God the Father of jesus Christ, that he would open the eyes of your mind, and direct you in his ways, lest you cast away that silly soul so dearly bought which you desire to save. Therefore leave off to resist the truth, and wittingly to ●ick against the prick, you cannot by force stop the waves of the sea, you cannot darken the beams of the sun, nor restrain the arm of God. falsehood driven back shall give place, and truth at the length (resist while you will) shall have the victory. The Conclusion unto the University men. CAmpian (most worthy men) would present this gift of his unto you, which of what worth it is you can best judge. I will not go about to turn or allenate your affections from him, whom I know more firmly resolved, then that any such slender reasons can any whit move you. He may (I grant) make some show, and get some applause from the unlearned multitude; but that he should be able to beguile you, or cast a mist before such and so great judgements, if I should suspect it, I should be too in●●tio●s to the Universities. Therefore I a● well content that Campian have such place is your conceits and affections, as he can procure, and refer the censure of the matter most willingly unto you. This work he composed at vacant times us he traveled, if we may believe him of his word. He would not seem to write any thing purposely and ●●●rately, wherein he both apparently distrust his cause, and bewrays the vanity of his disposition. For whereas before he had prepared it with great deliberation, and brought it into England from Rome, he would seem to us to have penned it on a sudden, at idle times in his travail, which plainly shows the badness of his cause, and argues more than ordinary arrogancy. But this is ordinary with our Papists, to pretend all their writings are done of a sudden, and ex tempore, hoping thereby to be easily excused in their errors: beside they will hereby make us believe, that when they writ more deliberately, and take greater pains, than their writings shall be unanswerable. After Bishop jewel that famous preacher of the truth, had challenged all Papists, and called them to the trial of antiquity, some years ago, certain books were published by men of great name, Harding, Rastall, Dorman: but observe their notable policy. When they had been full three years in preparing their answer, and at length had finished somewhat, fearing they should be but lightly respected by the learned and circumspect reader, they dissembled their intent, alleging that they were written in haste, not with purpose of publishing them, but only to satisfy the particular request of some private friends, what could they have feigned more foolishly, or affirmed more featefullie? But Campian thought good to follow their politic example, affirming this work of his was made by the way 〈…〉 hours, when he at great leisure had prepared is beyond the seas. And yet the matter of the book, the manner of his style, and his whole gift (as he calleth it) is such, as I easily believe it was rather done in great haste, then by mature deliberation. For what 〈◊〉 these his ●en reasons, but a little sum of slanders, laid, and drawn together out of the books and lectures of Lindane, Sanders, Canisius, Melchior Canus, Bellarmine, in composing whereof, Campian might easily make haste, especially seeing his greatest care was not how true, but how slanderous all things were that he should set down. For I doubt not, but you that are the learned of the Universities, perceive by this time that those things written in this book by Campian, are such, as for the matter are most untrue, for the style, spiteful and malicious. I testify before God, and I call heaven, earth, and whatsoever creatures in the world to witness, that either there is no truth, or those things thus by Campian propounded are most false. View it well, search it, and know it altogether, Campian is an adversary, and deceitful, trust him not, he is deceived himself, and laboureth to deceive you. By him none can be deceived, but such as willingly will be entangled with error. All things he hath, are common, only his audaciousness, in affirming, and feigning any thing, it is strange and incredible. If it were fit that he should be respected more than Luther, than Caluine, than Christ himself, the teacher of truth, than he had some cause to hope: but seeing this is unmeet and unreasonable, he can prevail nothing at all with you, by his reasons. Night remains till the day be light, but the Sun rising darkness is dispelled; and the truth appearing, falsehood vanisheth. God the father of lights, the only teacher of heavenly wisdom, vouchsafe us his spirit, that ignorance and deceived'st error being 〈◊〉 we may hearken to the voice of that g●●●● Shepheard, avoid the inti●●ments and b●●tes of Antich●●●●, and may know God the Father in Christ jesus, to whom with the holy Spirit, be all praise and glory as●●●ed for ever. FINIS. Errata. Pag. 29. li●●●1. put in, called. p. 42. in the note l. ●. read●●●cite. p. 43. l. 1. r. M●lito. p. 43. not● l. 36. r. them. p. 53. the not● should be referred to pag. 54. p. 70. l. 1. r. Macari●s. p ●3. l. 41. r. 275. p. 83. nota. l. 18. r. 294. p. 100 l. 11. r. the. ibid. l. 23. r. reserved. p. 104. l. 17. r. words. ibid. l. 37. r. the. p. 1ST. l. 17. ●● Maslovius. p. 137. l. 5. r. principle p. 148. no●● l. ●. 1. hold. p. 15●. nota l. 2●. r. d●●. p. 161. l. 2. the superiori ●, should be in p. 260. at forbiddeth. p. 1●6. l. 32. r. Orosius. p. 168. l. 20. r. Pope. p. 17●. l. 10. r. as though. p. 176. l. 29. r. when. p. 186. l 21. r. lucre p. 18● l. 13. r. ●●cking. p 235. l. 25. put in, of hell p. 243. l. 10 r. meddling p. 253. l. 2●. ●●e superior ●, should be in l. 17. a●, belee●●. p. 260 l. 〈…〉 in, where are they now? p. ●61. l. 23. r. fast. p. 266. l. 17 〈…〉 p. 290. nota l. 13. r. your. p. 292. l. 10. r. Siluister. p. 298. l. 17. r. world. p. 305. l. 1. r. 1●. p. 310. nota, l. 9 r. Pauli. ibi. l. 14. r. ●7●.