EFFIGIES DOCTISSIMI UIRI D NI FRANCISCI WHITE, S. T. PROFESSORIS ET ECCLESIAE CATHIS CARLEOLENSIS DECANI Aᵒ AETA 59 ANNO 1624. Wisdom and grace see in that modest look. truth's 〈◊〉 errors downfall in this book Maerebunt piscatores Isa. 19 8. HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE BEATI PACIFICI Bv Francis WHITE D. of Div Deane of Carlisle, Chaplain to his Ma.tie Hereunto is annexed a Conference of the right: R: B: of St David's with the same jesuit. Cirprianus de lapsis. Nec Ecclesiae iungitur qui ab Euangelio seperatur. VERITAS VNIVOCA. VERITATE APERIT DIES MENDACIU AEQUIVOCUM. ERROR CAECUS ET FALLAX PISCATORIS RETE HABET RANAS LONDON Printed by Adam Islip. 1624. TO THE MOST HIGH AND POTENT MONARCH, JAMES, OF GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, and IRELAND, King, Defender of the Faith; my Sovereign Lord and Master. MOST GRACIOUS, and Religious Sovereign, it is apparent, that the external Tuition and Projection of Orthodoxal Verity, and Religion, next under the Almighty, doth principally belong to Christian Princes, which are by Office and Vocation, the Lords Anointed, Sons of the most High, and supreme Regent's of this inferior World, under God. The Donates in times past denied the lawful Authority of Christian Princes, in superuising and external governing Ecclesiastical Causes, saying, Quid est Imperatori cum Ecclesia? What hath Imperial (or Regal) Majesty to do with the Church. But Optatus styleth this a brainsick Optat. lib. 3. c. Parmen. Error, saying, Ille Parmenio furore succensus, etc. And S. Augustine contesting with these Aug. c. Cresc. lib. 3. ca 51. malapert Heretics, saith, In hoc Reges Deo seruiunt, etc. Kings, according to the Divine Precept, serve the Lord as they be Kings, when they command good, and prohibit evil; not in Civil Affairs only, but in Matters which concern Divine Religion. Jsiodor. Hispal. saith, Isid. d. sum. bon. lib. 3. ca 53. Secular Princes sometimes (that is, when they are Christians) have eminent Authority, intra Ecclesiam, within the Church, to fortify Ecclesiastical Discipline. Princes of the Earth (saith S. Augustine) serve Christ, by making Laws for Aug. Epist. 48. ad Vincent. Christ. And again, Civil Virtues (in higher Idem, Ep. 52. ad Macedon. Powers) avail them not for eternal Beatitude, unless withal they govern their People in true Religion. And in another Epistle: It appertains Idem, Ep. 61. ad Dulcit. to Religious Princes, to repress by just severity, not only Adultery, Homicide, and other heinous Crimes (against men) but also Sacrilegious Jmpietie (against God.) The evangelical Prophet foretelleth, that Kings should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nursing, or Foster-fathers' of the Christian Church, Esa. 49.23. Also they are Shepherds of the Almighty, and concurrents for the building of his House, Esa. 44.28. King Josiah reform the jewish Church, suppressed Impiety, restored true Religion, 2. King. 23. And he was herein so far from transcending the bounds of Regal Authority, that the Holy Ghost faith of him, Like him, was there no King before him; neither after him arose there any like. Constantine the Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 10. ca 9 Et d. vit. Const. li. i. ca 37. Ministrorum Dei coegit Concilium, lib. 2. c. 43. lib. 3. ca 6, 10, 12, 16, 17, 18, 23. Interdum 〈◊〉 quae ad Ecclesiarum Dei commodum spectabant prescribendo. & ib. ca 63. & lib. 4. c. 14. c. 18. Festos dies instituit, ca 22, 23, 27. Episcoporun Decreta confirmavit. Theoderit. Hist. Eccles. li. 1. cap. 7. Great, by Imperial Laws established true Religion: He appointeth Festival Days, prescribeth what Bishops shall do, for the Church's avail; He 〈◊〉 Synods, is himself an Assessor and Agent among the Nicene Fathers; He 〈◊〉, and directeth the Bishops; He confirmeth the Decrees of the Great Council of Nice, and compelleth his Christian subjects to profess the Faith determined in that Synod. Now of this Grand Patron of Christian Faith, and the true Professors thereof, S. Augustine affirmeth, The God of Heaven enriched him with such large Blessings in this World, Quanta optare nullus August. d. Ciu. Dei, li. 5. c. 25. auderet, as one could not have presumed to wish. S. Cyrill of Alexandria writing to Christian Princes which did the like, saith: The Orient Pearls, and bright-shining Diamonds of Jndia, do not so much adorn your Royal Heads, as your care and protection of true Piety, maketh your sacred Persons venerable, and glorious. Your most excellent Majesty walketh in the Religious ways of those renowned Princes, and their example hath ever been the Precedent of the exercising your Royal Authority in sacred Causes, and of your constant resolution in professing and protecting true Religion. The Almighty hath placed you (within your Dominions) his supreme Vicegerent: He hath made you greater than Joseph over his House, and a Joshua over his People; you are a Signet upon the Lords right hand, never to be plucked off; He hath exalted you, in Hominem a Deo secundum, & quicquid est a Deo consecutum, & solo Deo minorem (as Tertullian speaketh) Tertul. ad Scap. ca 2. the immediate visible person (within your Kingdoms) under himself, receiving all your Authority and Majesty from his own hand; and he hath made you inferior to none, but himself: and to use S. Cyrils' words, uttered to Cyril, c. julian. Praef. ad Theodos. Theodosius, Vestrae serenitati nullus status est aequalis, No State is equal (much less may overtop) your serene Majesties. But together with your Regal Power and Angel. Politian. li. d. Polit. Disciplina. Iacob' primus, M. Britanniae Rex, omni laude maior, eminet adeo, ut cum Salomone sapiaetissimo divinitus judicato, certare poste videatur, de humanarum & divinarum rerum scientia. Authority, the Almighty hath enriched your heart, above many other Princes of the World, with incomparable Wisdom and judgement in matters Religious and Divine (as not only your own subjects, but even Foreigners have observed:) and that is fulfilled in you, which S. Athanasius once uttered in an Epistle to Jovianus the Emperor, Decora & eximia res est in principe, mens discendi avida, & rerum Coelestium cupido, inde enim fit, ut cor tuum vere sie in manu Dei; It is a gracious and excellent quality in a great Prince, to have a mind desirous of knowledge, and affecting the intelligence of Celestial things: for hereby it cometh to pass, that your heart is indeed in the hand of God. It is the happiness therefore of your loyal and Orthodoxal subjects, which answer for Verity against Error, that they may defend the same before a King, expert in the Questions whereof they dispute, and whose cleare-seeing judgement, like the fining Furnace, is able to make difference between Gold and Dross. And this hath animated me, to present my Reply (To a Jesuits Answer of certain Questions controverted between Papals and us) to your most sacred Majesty. I received the Adversary's Disputation by my Lord Duke of Buckingham; who enjoined me, in your Majesty's Name, to examine, and answer the same. I could not but admire your Princely zeal, to have true Religion maintained, as well by Disputation, as by your just Laws. And although I was conscious to myself, of the want of those more eminent Graces which are found in greater Divines; yet having sensibly observed your own unfeigned and 〈◊〉 love to the Religion which we profess, and being greatly encouraged by the Noble Duke (who is your Majesty's very Image, in the constant profession and maintenance of Orthodoxal Verity) I became obedient to your sacred Commandment. And now concluding, I most humbly desire you (who resemble him, that dwelling on high, despiseth not things below, accepting even the poor Widow's Mite, and Goat's hair, where greater Exod. 25.4. substance is wanting) to give me leave to consecrate this my Reply to your most serene Majesty. I confess, this Work to be overmeane, in respect of your exact judgement, and excelse Dignity: yet in regard of the Author, it is a free will Offering, intended to the honour of God, and of your sacred Majesty, and to confirm your Liege people in right Faith, and true love and obedience of your most just and gracious Government. As an Angel of God, so is my Lord the King, to discern good and bad; therefore the Lord thy God will be with thee, 2. Sam. 14. 17. Your Majesty's Chaplain, and Servant, FRAN. WH. TO THE READER. IT is now two years, since I was first called, by my Lord Duke of Buckingham, to confer with an Honourable Person, who as then began to make Revolt from the true Faith and Religion professed in our Church. By this Occasion, I entered into a Disputation with one Mr john Fisher, a Jesuit, the same person which was the Author of the two Books, against which my younger Brother, Dr john White, wrote his Way to the true Church, and the Defence of the same. After my first Conference with the aforesaid Jesuit, ensued (not long after) a Second, at which his most excellent Majesty himself was present. The Cause (as I afterwards perceived) of his Presence, was a gracious desire to recover the foresaid Honourable Person out of the Fishers Net. Then there followed a Third Conference, between a most Learned and Reverend Bishop, and the said Jesuit, intended to the same purpose. Lastly, his Royal Majesty, in his deep Judgement, having observed by the former Conferences, and especially by the second, that our Adversaries are cunning and subtle, in eluding our Arguments brought against them, but of no strength (especially in particular Questions) when they come to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and confirmation of their own Tenet; He was pleased to have Nine Questions of Controversy propounded to the Jesuit, that he might in writing manifest the Grounds, and Arguments, whereupon the Popish Faith in those Points was builded. For his Majesty, in his own Judgement and Experience, knew most certainly, That Romists are not able to confirm 〈◊〉 Faith, either by sacred Scripture, or by ancient Tradition. And therefore their manner is, when they dispute with Protestants viva voce to avoid other Controversies, and to set up their rest upon the Questions of the visibility and Authority of the Church. Therefore the better to discover their weakness, and to pluck them out of their Fox-hole of Personal Succession, and Vistbilitie, the King imposed this Task, of writing upon the Nine Questions. Besides, his Maieftie had experience of the mfaithfull dealing of Pontificians, when they make Relation of such things as pass by word of mouth only, in private Disputations: and he well understood, 〈◊〉 the Cretising Jesuit had dealt with a 〈◊〉 Bishop, and with myself: For had we been Schoolboys of thirteen years old, he could not have made us seem more childish and unskilful than he did, dispersing Hundreds of Papers, to his own praise, and our disgrace. Wherefore it was necessary, that some public Work, containing the Grounds and Arguments of his part, and the Answer and Reply on ours, might be extant; wherein neither his nor our Yea and Nay, should take place, sed res cum re, causa cum causa, etc. the weight of matter on each part, might testify for itself. Now who could command this to be done, but the King himself? who therefore made the former proposition of Nine Questions to the Jesuit, that the World might see the uttermost of his strength; and again, they might have means to judge rightly of our Cause, and of our proceedings in handling the same. Mine own purpose at the first was, to have published in Print a Narration of my two Disputations, and (as far as my Memory would serve me) I had to that end collected in writing the sum of those Conferences. But observing afterwards, by another Disputation which was printed, that our Adversaries will perpetually tumultuate, and accuse of falsity, all things which pass not under their own hands; knowing also, that myself could not exactly remember all passages of the Jesuits Disputation and mine, there being not a word written at the time when we disputed; I deferred the printing thereof, until this greater Work was finished. The Adversary in this Answer, which his Friend delivered the King, hath disputed Eight of the Questions propounded by his Majesty, and he declineth the Ninth, for Reasons well known to the World; and in stead of a Disputation, he passeth over that Article of deposing Kings, with a rhetorical Declamation. But before the Nine Questions, he placeth a large Disputation (provided, no doubt, aforehand, and expecting only a prosperous Wind of Occasion, to send it abroad) touching the Rule of Faith, concerning Scripture and Tradition, the Notes of the Church, etc. Then, to counterpoise the Kings Nine Articles, he chargeth our Church with Nine remarkable Errors (as he accounteth them.) In the former part of his Tractate, is contained the sum and substance of the first Conference between him and me, before the Lord Keeper, and the Lord Duke of Buckingham. In the Questions of Jmages, Transubstantiation, & Communion in both kinds, is contained also the sum of the second Conference: but there are many Additions in each Question; and he handleth matters more exactly in his written Work, than he did in his private Disputations. I have examined his whole Treatise, and answered every passage thereof, printing his Work verbatim with mine own. The World must take notice, that I am a constant Preacher, in a Pastoral Charge, and therefore I could not ose such expedition as other men may, which employ their whole time & strength in writing. Besides, my Work being finished before Michaelmas last, bathe been long in Printing, by reason of the number of Quotations in the Margin. These Citations are for this cause word for word out of the Authors, placed in my Book, that the Work may be more useful, especially to such persons as want the benefit of Libraries, and much Reading, themselves. I have with as much diligence as morally a Scholar can use, collected my Testimonies out of the very Authors themselves. The Reader shall not need to fear, or distrust, unless where the Printer hath made Escapes (which cannot always be avoided in a Work of this nature.) And I must entreat the Reader, where he observeth any Error in the Print, to correct the same with his Pen. Neither must the unlearneder sort be offended, if they light upon some hard passages, because the matter itself is many times very abstruse; and disputing with Adversaries which are Sophisters, I am compelled to use Schollasticke terms, and to turn their own Weapons upon themselves: But so far as I am able, I have endeavoured to be perspicuous. Of my Adversaries I request nothing at all (for it is in vain:) But if they reply, it shall be for their greater honour to set down my Text, as I have done theirs. And they shall but beat the air, unless they confirm the main Branches of their Doctrine by Principles of Divine Revelation, because Humane Testimony is not sufficient to myse Articles of Faith. And I rest assured, that each intelligent person will observe by reading this Work, that the Aduerfarie (notwithstanding he is well versed in Controversy, and hath in substance said as much as his Cause will permit) yet he is deficient of Divine proof in every Article, and far more specious in eluding our Arguments, than happy in confirming his own. But if it be certain that Popish Faith wanteth the Suffrage of Divine Testimony, than we have sufficient cause to reject their Doctrine. And if we could not demonstrate, that the Articles which they maintain against us, were contra verbum Dei, contradictory to the Word of God; yet if by deficiency of proof on their side, it appear, they be extra & praeter, without or beside the Word of God, they cannot be the object of Divine Faith. Lastly, I entreat all, of our part, to praise God for the benefit of true Religion, maintained in our Church, to avoid Contention among themselves; for in all Ages the same hath proved pernicious and scandalous. Also, to be as devout in the way of Piety, as Adversaries seem to be in the way of Superstition. And because it hath ever been an Honour to our Profession, to be loyal and obedient to higher Powers, let this be still an indelible Character of every true British Protestant, to rejoice in the peaceable and happy Government of his most sacred Majesty; & let us all, so far as it is possible, by our fervent votes and prayers, strive to add increase to his days, and happiness. Far be it from any of our part, in their secret thoughts, to misconstrue his actions, or to entertain the least jealousy of any abatement of his wont love to true Religion, planted among us: for assuredly he understands the Mystery of Popery too well, to think any otherwise of it, than formerly he hath done; and no subject can lay the Cause of Religion more near their heart, than his most Religious Majesty doth. And we have all great cause to glorify God, who hath blessed our Church with such a wise and constant Defender of the Faith. Now my Conscience urgeth me to deliver thus much concerning his Majesty, because the Adversary, in some passages of his ensuing Treatise (as by reading you shall observe) rhetoriseth suspiciously, intending (no doubt) to raise some jealousy in credulous minds, contrary to this which I have spoken. Myself therefore, through the gracious Clemency of his Majesty, being admitted to approach so near, as to be an earwitness of his admirable judgement and constant Resolution in point of Religion, and hereby certainly knowing, that the Jesuit departing from the King, added no improvement to his Popish Cause, but vanished with foil and disgrace; I trust I shall incur no Censure from men judicious, and lovers of Truth, for certifying that, which I observed by mine own experience. And thus commending my Labours to the blessing of the Almighty, to the examination of my Superiors in the Church, and to the perusal of those which desire to read them, I address myself to the ensuing Disputation. April. 10. 1624. THE CATALOGVE OF QVESTIONS, DISPUTED in this Worke. 1. WHether, of all other, it be the most important Controversy, to understand the Quality of the Roman Church? Fol. 1. 2. Whether Divine Faith be resolved finally into unwritten Tradition, or into Scripture? 12 3. Touching the visibility, and Notes of the Church in general. 49 4. Whether the Roman Church is the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church? 103 5. Whether Protestants err fundamentally in the Faith? 146 6. Whether Protestants err fundamentally about Tradition? 149 7. Whether they do the like, in their Doctrine about General Counsels? 152 8. Whether they err, by denying Papal Supremacy? 157 9 Whether they err in point of justification? 161 10. Whether they err in point of Merit of Good Works? 169 11. Whether they do the like, concerning the Sacrament of Baptism? 175 12. Whether they err in the Doctrine of Real presence? 178 13. Whether they do the like about Penance, and Absolution? 185 14. Whether they err about the Article of the Catholic Church? 193 15. Touching Worship of Images. 209 16. Concerning Invocation of Saints departed. 287 17. Touching prayer of the ignorant in an unknown Tongue. 365 18. Concerning repetitions of Paternosters, Aves, and Creeds, with reference to Merit. 384 19 Concerning Transubstantiation. 390 20. Of Communion in one kind. 459 21. Of works of Supererogation, and Pope's Pardons. 510 22. Of deposing Kings, and giving away of their Kingdoms by Papal power, directly, or indirectly. 569 Jesuit. TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. Most Gracious and dread Sovereign, A Conference about Religion, between Doctor White and me, was occasion that your Majesty called me to your Gracious presence, not disdaining to dispute with one so mean and unworthy as myself, imitating his benignity whose Vicegerent you are, and according to the phrase of holy Scripture, his Angel. 2. Reg. 14.17. Sicut Angelus Dei sic est Dominus meus Rex. And as it is the property of the good Angel, first to strike fear and terror into them to whom he appears, but in the end, to leave them full of comfort: In like sort, your Majesty: For though the first salutation carried a show of severity, yet your dismissing me, was benign and gracious, not only pardoning my earnestness, in defending the part of the Catholic Church, but also saying, You liked me the better. ANSWER. MIrum est, si in fancy hominis, tantum interuallum inter frontem & linguam, ut frons non comprimat linguam: It is strange (saith St. Augustine a Aug. c. julian. Pelag l. 1. c. 5. that there should be such a great distance between the front of a man, and his mouth, that the shame of his forehead should not repress the impudency of his tongue. It is untrue, that his Royal Majesty, at the Close of the Conference, (whereof you speak) gave you any applause, or the least occasion to conjecture, That he was taken with any passage of your Disputation. For you propounded nothing, to demonstrate your own Tenet, or to confute ours, worthy of the great Presence to which you were admitted. But you kept yourself within your Trenches, and sometimes you were driven to dissemble your own Tenet, other-while (according to the Romish manner) by wyre-drawne distinctions and evasions, to elude the weight of his Majesty's Arguments, making good the saying of Maxentius, Mens contentioni Ap. Bign. in Biblioth. to. 4. Indulgens, & non sanari, sed vincere cupiens, aversa ab eis quae rectè dicuntur, tantum intenta est in hoc, ut inveniat quod pro partibus suis loquatur: A contentious mind, desirous of victory, and not willing to be reform, but averse from right sayings, only deviseth how to elude Truth, and to speak for his own part. And as for those words of his royal Majesty (I like you the better) they were uttered upon this occasion: When the jesuit being pressed about the point of Temporal authority, etc. did at the first seek evasions, in the end kneeling down, he said, I will deal plainly with your Majesty; upon this, the King said, I like you the better: wherein he was so far, from gracing his whole Disputation, that not long after, his Majesty told him, He never heard a verier, etc. Jesuit. The grateful acknowledgement and admiration of this your Princely clemency, makes me desire (from the bottom of my soul) that I could fully satisfy your Majesty of my dutiful and loyal affection, which is fast tied unto your sacred person, by a threefold inviolable bond. Funiculus triplex difficilè rumpitur Ecclesiast. ca 4. 12. The Law of Nature obligeth me thereunto, as being your Majesty's born subject, the transgression whereof, were 〈◊〉, barbarous, inbumane. The Law of God requires the like constant and perfect allegiance at my bands, binding me to regard you, as his Lieutenant, and to acknowledge your power and authority, as his Ordination. Rom. 13. 1. So that according to the Doctrine of the Catholic Church, I must not only out wardly observe, but also admit your Majesty's will and command with reverence, into the secret closet of my inmost conscience and soul. The Constitutions also of the Order, whereof I am an vnworthie Rom. 13. 5. member, do strictly command me the same, in severest manner charging the subjects thereof, no ways to meddle in State matters, or in Princes affairs: much less under pretence of Religion, to attempt any thing, or to consent unto any enterprise, that may disturb the quiet and tranquillity of Kings and Kingdoms. And seeing we are so devoted to our own Jnstitute, that our Adversaries thereupon (amongst many other calummiations) lay to our charge, That we more reverently esteem, and carefully observe the Constitutions of our Rule, than the Law of God; I shall for your Majesty's fuller satisfaction set down some Colloquium de secretis jesuitarum. part of our Constitutions in this point, in manner following. Vt ab omni specie mali abstineatur, & querelis Decretum 101. Cong. Sanctae general. & Con. 12. eiusdem & in monitis generalibus, §. 18. etiam ex falsis suspitionibus provenientibus, quoad fieri poterit occurratur, praecipitur nostris omnibus in virtute Sanctae obedientiae, & sub poenae inhabilitatis ad quaevis officia & dignitates seu praelationes, vocisque tam activae quam passivae privationis, ne quispiam publicis & secularibus Principum negotijs quae ad rationem status ut vocant pertinent, ulla ratione se immiscere, nec etiam quantumuis requisitus & rogatus eiusmodi res politicas tractandi curam suscipere Decret. 57 & Can. audeat aut praesumat. Illa autem omnia, quae à spirituali instructione diversa sunt, negotia status censeri debeat, qualia sunt quae ad Principum inter se foedera, vel ad regnorum iura, & successiones pertinent, vel ad bella tam civilia, quam externa. jubet Regula 41. ut secularia negotia utpote quae In regulis communibus Reg, 41. sunt à nostro instituto aliena & vehementer à spiritualibus avocant, multum aversemur. jubentur concionatores societatis a reprehensionibus Principum & Magnatum Reipublicae abstinere, & obedientiam In regulis concionatorum. erga Principes & Magistratus frequenter & serio, suis in concionibus populo commendare. jubent constitutiones 〈◊〉 vatijs in locis, ut oremus In Constitutionibus. speciatim pro Principibus, eorumque spirituali salute praecipua cura procuranda ac promovenda invigilemus, ob universale bonum, quod ad multos alios, qui eorum authoritatem sequuntur, vel per eos reguntur proveniet. Extat denique Instructio pro confessarijs Principum, In Instructionibus. qua nostris serio interdicitur, ne occasione huius muneris, rebus politicis aut Reipublicae gubernationi se immisceant: iubenter etiam hanc instructionem Principibus ostendere, curareque ut ij plane intelligant quid societas ab eo postulet, quem confessarium sibi eligunt, neque per leges nostras licere nobis aliis conditionibus id oneris suscipere. I humbly crave pardon for offering so many particulars of our Rule unto your Majesty's 〈◊〉, which I should not have done, but out of a most strong desire, to give your Majesty satisfaction against such wrongful aspersions, wherewith malevolencie and suspicion laboureth to disgrace us, and to make us odious to them, whom (howsoever disaffected from us) we must perpetually reverence and obey; of whom under God, 〈◊〉 and the success of our labours doth principally depend. And when I consider your Majesty's gracious disposition, and excellent maturity and sharpness of judgement, to penetrate assuredly into the depth of affairs, together with our innocence, whereof our own conscience is unto us in stead of a thousand witnesses, and which (as we are persuaded) doth in the course of our actions and whole proceedings, appear to any that shall unpartially, and without passion look into them: I cannot despair, but the Prayers which for this intent, with tears and afflicted hearts we daily pour forth, will at last so much prevail with the sovereign Governor of the world, in whose hands are the Cor Regis in manu Domini, 〈◊〉. ca 〈◊〉. v. 1. hearts of Princes, that your Majesty may conceive some better opinion of your (without 〈◊〉 so much calumniated) 〈◊〉, as to judge of us, according as our Constitutions frame us, and our Actions deserve; not as it pleaseth disaffection to paint us forth. And as your Majesty is a living Monument of that 〈◊〉 paragon of France, Henry the fourth, and of his wisdom and other Princely excellencies: So why may we not entertain afar off, an hopeful thought, that your Majesty may one day be better informed against so many malevolent suggestions, and see that they proceed from another origin, than our desert: as that famous Prince did, thereupon restoring them, whom sinister information had banished out of his Kingdom; for which fact (saith the 〈◊〉 reporteth Petrus Matthew, Historiographer of France. Historiographer of France) he received thanks from all parts of the world, even out of Peru, and Chochin, japon, Goa, and China, with presents of some singularities of the Country. I observed (saith the same Author) the pleasure which he took in speaking of the same action, and what content he received, when as a great Cardinal told him, That by this restoring, his Majesty had gotten two thousand learned pens for his service, and perpetual fame. When as the jesuits represented unto him the Catalogue of Colleagues, and the thanks of the three Provinces of France, he used these words unto them, which should serve as an Epigraph upon all their houses: Assurance follows confidence, I trust in you, assure yourselves of me; with these Papers I receive the hearts of all your company, and with the effects I will witness mine unto you: I have always said, That they which fear and love God well, cannot but do well, and are always most faithful to their Prince. We are now better informed, I did hold you to be otherwise than you are, and you have found me to be other than you held me. I would it had been sooner, but there is means to recompense what is past. Love me, and I will love you. ANSWER. Your Oratory in this Preface is plausible a Cyril. Chat. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Ireneus, li. 3. ca 15. Suasorius & verisimilis est, exquirens 〈◊〉 Error, sine fuco autem, est 〈◊〉. , and God grant you prove as faithful in deeds, as you are a wily Humiliate in words. The three grounds of Loyalty and Allegiance to our Sovereign, related by yourself; and his Princely Clemency, which hath superabounded, even towards his enemies, are bonds of Adamant, to tie every honest heart, to a constant resolution of thankfulness and fidelity. And although experience hath reached that, which is the general voice of the world, Fides jesuitica, fides punica, and their pretensions of love to all those which are adverse to them in Faith, (as his Sacred Majesty is, and ever must be) are but semblances, and personations of Truth: yet high transcendent Charity may sometimes suggest Hope, that it is possible, even for enemies, to be overcome with goodness, Rom. 12.21. And therefore I will suspend odious presages and conjectures. But it must also be observed, that jesuits are zealous propugners of certain dangerous Positions, most adverse to the sovereign right of Princes, to wit, Of the absolute immunity of the Clergy, from their jurisdiction; The temporal dominion of Roman Popes, over absolute Kings and States; Papal power of dispensing with oaths, which may open a wide sea of mischief, and frustrate all pretended Rules and Constitutions of Orders, so as no security can thereby accrue to Princes or temporal States, because the grand Lord Paramount may at his pleasure cancel and release them, or interpret them agreeably to the present occasion. Lastly, their perfidious Doctrine of Equivocation, and Mental reservation, playeth fast and loose, and juggleth under board, nay above board, whensoever advantage may be thereby made against us. But to view a little nearer the flourishes which the jesuit makes to get entertainment. Whatsoever he pretendeth with his Protestations and Compliments, of admitting his Majesty's commands, into the secret closet of his inmost breast: Yet in the very Allegations and Proofs, brought for his and his fellow's sincerity, towards his Majesty, he layeth open that polt-foot, which he indeauoureth to hide; persuading in this manner: 1. A priori, thus, No jesuit observing the Constitutions of his Order, can intermeddle in State matters, or Prince's affairs. Every jesuit observeth and obeyeth the constitutions of his order, etc. Ergo: No jesuit meddleth with state matters. Touching the Mayor, we have learned out of your own School, how easy it is for you to evade. For State matters (according to your Tenet) In ordine ad Deum, and Ad bonum spirituale, become spiritual matters, and so may belong to the jesuits proper cognisance. Also, Princes affairs, when the Pope pleaseth to declare them no Princes; are not Princes affairs, but Papal and Ecclesiastical affairs; and then the jesuits, statising, are still in their own Element. Secondly, a man must be of strong faith to believe your Minor to be Defied, or of moral certitude, if such constitutions be understood as the words sound. At least he must be a stranger to the world, and have lived an Anchoret, or Recluse in some Cave, who never heard of Campian, Parsons, Creswell, Garnet, Suares, Bellarmine, etc. Did F. Parsons observe these constitutions of his Order, when he wrote his Dolman against his Majesty's title, & c? Did Creswell the same, when he published his Philopater? Or, Bellarmine, and Suares, when the one wrote his Apology, and the other, his Contra sectam Anglicanam? Did Mariana and Garnet this, when the one instructeth how to cure State mischiefs, by applying a dispatching Antidote to the head; and when the other put his anointed finger into the Powder? Now, what further assurance have we, That this fawning persuader holdeth himself more bound than his fellows, to such constitutions as he pretendeth, do oblige the whole Order? But the truth is, the jesuitical constitutions are of two sorts: Either Open and diuulged precepts, blazed ad faciendum populum; [Mens bona, fama, fides, haec clarè, & ut audiat Hospes. Pers. Sat. 2. We jesuits may not under pretence of Religion, attempt or consent to any enterprise, that may disturb the quiet of Kings and Kingdoms.] Or else, private and secret instructions, to be put in ure as advantage for promoting the Papacy and Catholic cause, shall be offered. These, as higher and more sacred Principles, overrule the former: and so a jesuit Breaking his rule, observeth his rule. This distinction seemeth to be employed in the very title of instructions here set down by the jesuit, being in the margin styled, Monita generalia, prohibiting them to interrmeddle with affairs, Quae adrationem status pertinent, there specifying, Principum foedera, regnorum iura & successiones. And beside, nay against these, Generalia monita, they may have special countermanding instructions, enabling them to thrust their sickle into the harvest of Kings: or at least, dispensing, pardoning, and accepting such services of theirs, if prosperously performed. Neither have we heard that ever any of that brood was punished by his Superior, or by the Pope's holy Fatherhood, for attempting in this kind, though without success. In which case, the endeavours of their fiery zeal, are accounted acceptable sacrifice to the Roman deity, as may appear by the indulgence used towards such of that Order, as have in England, France, and other countries, either by seditious books disturbed the successions of Kingdoms, or by traitorous projects endeavoured the shaking and subverting of them. Your other argument of persuasion, is, à posteriori, from an example of the Renowned French King, Henry the fourth, to whom you wish his Majesty to be a parrallell. Your reference looketh this way: Henry the fourth (a wise King) was prosperous in reentertaining the jesuits: for he received thanks and presents from Peru, China, etc. Also, he purchased two thousand learned pens for his fame, etc. He found assurance, and safetic followed his confidence in them: he loved them, and they him. Ergo: The King of great Britain shall do well to be better informed of the jesuits fidelity, and to entertain them. Verily, either this jesuit prevaricateth and pleadeth against his own Order, or else he by mistake and forgetfulness infarceth here a rhapsody of some discourse, written in defence and praise of the French jesuits before April 1610, which ever since that time, hath been out of date and cassated. An instance more uncouth and preposterous, in regard of the issue, he could not have light upon. This he saw well enough, when he presumed thus to write to his Majesty, but he had his aim another way. And what though he paralogize in the seeming direct proposing of his argument, yet he hath his end in mentioning an instance known to the world, Direful and Tragical. And so, That troop may hope to intrude by terror, if they cannot creep in by favour. But alas, What poor flashes of proof doth he point at? That King bad thanks from the uttermost parts of the world, etc. a deep device for jesuits far dispersed to write or procure letters great ulatorie for the nesting of birds of their own feather. I think if jesuits might have Colleges in England, Their remote brethren would thank us more than we should do them: o, but if the jesuits were admitted into our bosom, we should have (as that King had) presents sent of some Singularities, etc. Rare trinkets, no doubt, for which we could not pay too dear, though we sold our Religion and Liberty for them. But in the Example cited, that which surpasseth, is, The Army of learned Pens, which by thousands will march upon the Plain of Paper Monuments, for extolling those which nurse up that brood. But would to God these men did not write sometimes with blood: How they requited that King's love, and what security he enjoyed by them, the doleful Catastrophe showed. Male ominatis Parcite verbis. Jesuit. No labours would we spare, nor any endeavours omit, nor stick to venture the loss of any thing dear unto us (except the grace of God, and our eternal salvation) to purchase a small portion of that favour your Majesty's meanest Subjects enjoy, that we might in some sort cooperate to the felicity of the Christian world, which (as we are persuaded) doth on your Majesty's person singularly depend. For God (rich in Mercy and Goodness) as he hath made your Majesty partaker of his Power and Authoritis, in governing this inferior world; so likewise he hath adorned you with many excellent gifts, as Wisdom, Learning, Authority with foreign Princes and Commonwealths, made you beloved of your Subjects, that on you are cast the eyes of all Christian Countries, as on the Person whom the Prince of Peace hath beyond the rest, enabled to join together again the parts of Christendom, distracted one from another through Contioversies of Religion. ANSWER. It is sufficient, that you have liberty to deprecate his Gracious Majesty to forget things past, against himself and the State, and to thank his Princely clemency for the benefit of his merciful Government, whereof you and others have tasted beyond expectation. But in stead hereof, you discover in yourselves a restless mind, never to be satisfied, until that (like the Serpent) having once got in your head, you wind in all your body. Surely, some evil Genius guideth you, otherwise you could not be so impudent, as to solicit a most judicious and resolute Prince, to be an Apostata from his Faith, and to expose his natural and loyal Subjects, to the gross errors and sharking rapine of Romish Harpies. And wherefore must his Majesty condescend to these heavy conditions? forsooth, to join together again, the parts of Christendom distracted, that is, in plain English, under pretext of Religion, to establish lewd Superstition and Roman Tyranny a Zabarel. d. Schism. Quidam summi Pontifices qui magis ad modum 〈◊〉 Princepum quam Apostolorum Ecclesiam rexerunt, etc. Math. Paris. Chron. pa. 507. Dicit Rex (Henricus 3) nec volo nec audeo, Domino Papae in aliquibus contradicere. . Libanius the Sophister, in ancient time, upon the like ground, solicited julian the Emperor to Apostasy: but we say with Saint Hilary b Hilar. c. Aurent. , Speciosum nomen est pacis, & pulchra est opinio unitatis, etc. The name of Peace is specious, and the opinion of Unity carries a fair show, but there is no evangelical Peace without Christ (that is, without true Faith and Charity in Christ) Saint Augustine c Aug. d. ver. Relig. cap. 45. saith, Habet & superbia appetitum quendam unitatis, etc. Even pride itself hath a certain desire of unity, that it might be Omnipotent. If Peace be just and honest (saith Polybius d Polyb. Hist. li. 4. pa. 300. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, It is a worthy possession, and most profitable; but if it be dishonourable and base, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, it is of all things most shameful and pernicious. Jesuit. If the requests of the pretended Reformers were such as the Roman Church might yield unto them, without overthrowing the very foundations of the unity of Faith: If in stead of Catholic Principles mis-liked by them, they did propose such other of their own, as she might see some probability, or almost possibility of assured continued peace, likely to follow upon her yielding in some Points; feeling compassion (in regard of the wound of discord, bleeding in the heart of Christendom) would move her to the uttermost approach towards Protestants, that the Law of God can permit, though with some disparagement to her honour. ANSWER. You should rather say, If the request of Protestants (among whom the King of Great Britain is most emment) were such, as that the Roman Prelates might yield unto, without hazard of their usurped Monarchy; If Protestant's would consent to fond the holy Scriptures packing, and not reckon the same among Divine Principles a Bosius. d. sig. Eccles. lib. 16. cap. 10. Scriptura non refertur inter huiusmodi Principia. ; if they would purchase remission of sins, by paying tribute into his Holiness his Chequer b Papir. Mascon. d. Episc. urbis. li, 5. in Bonifac. 8. Prestitit plenam omnium debitorum remissionem, eyes, qui limina Apostolorum invisissent. Quo anno ingens concursus, etc. joh. villaneus se testem facit, auri & divitiarum, quas Pontifex, populusque Rom. illo anno congescêre. , and not seek to obtain the same by the merits of the Lamb of God; in a word, if they would permit the Roman Nahash to pluck out their right eye, that their devotion might be framed according to the rule of implicit Faith and blind Obedience c 〈◊〉 vita Francifci Assis. cap. 6. Caeca obedientia ut quis sit sicut corpus sine anima quod requiescit ubi quis posuerit sine motu. : sensible feeling of her own reviving greatness and lucre, would move the Roman Mother (being tenderhearted to them which present her with Red and White d Math. Pan's Chron. in Henrico 1. pa. 56. Scdis 〈◊〉 quae nulli deesse consuevit dummodo albi aliquid vel rubei intercedat. ) to approach towards Protestants, and to hug them in her arms, as Apes do their Whelps, until with overmuch kindness she crush out their breath. Jesuit. But so it is, that those that defre her Reformation, be so many for number, and for Opinions so divided amongst themselves, that it is impossible she should satis fie all. Their Conditions of peace are, That she reform herself, by forsaking definitions of general Counsels, Customs, Doctrines universally received for many ages, time out of mind confessedly, without any known beginning since the Apostles. In stead of these means (so potent to stay staggering consciences, and to keep the Christian world in peace) they present her with the Scriptures understood by private illumination (the source of discord, from which an Ocean of strife must needs flow.) These things considered, your most judicious Majesty cannot but see, that her yielding would not compose debates already begun, but rather open a wide gap to innumerable new brawls, and bring them into Kingdoms, bitherto (with such dissension) untouched. ANSWER. Whosoever abideth in error ought to reform. The Roman Church abideth in error, Ergo, The Roman Church ought to reform. The Assumption is manifest, by the repugnancy of Roman Doctrine, against the Faith of the holy Scriptures, and against the Doctrine of the Primative Church, which shall hereafter be proved in every point of Difference between Romists and us. But as the Synagogue of the jews hated reformation, and persisteth in hardness of heart to this day, so likewise Babylon will not be healed, jerem. 51.9. The jesuit delivereth three reasons, why the Roman Church cannot yield to reformation. The first, is taken from the manifold divisions of Protestants among themselves, etc. But this Argument (to say nothing of the leading part thereof) is inconsequent: for if Romists err, than they ought to reform, whosoever they are that admonish them and convince them of error. And when the ancient Church abounded with Schisms and ruptures a Euseb. vita. Constantin. lib. 2. cap. 6. Socrat. Hist. lib. 1. cap. 3. 〈◊〉. Hist. lib. 1. cap. 15. & lib. 6. cap. 25. Chrysoft. sup. 1. cap. Ep. ad Galath. Hanc ob causam deridiculo facti sumus, & Gentibus & Iudaeis, dum Ecclesia in mille partes scinditur. , a means was used to restore unity, to wit, a common submission to free and lawful Counsels, congregated, not by Roman Popes, but by Christian and religious Emperors b Read hereafter in 〈◊〉 Book, pa. 151. Zabaril. d. Scys. pa. 542. Olim Imperator congregabat Concilium. : and these commanded points of Controversy to be decided, according to the rule of holy Scriptures c Read. pa. 8. & pag. 37. (as I shall hereafter make manifest in this Treatise) yea sometimes the doctrine of one sound member of the Church, hath been a Sovereign means to convert errants, and consequently to reform such as were misled by error. Neither is reformation unreasonable or impossible, although they which reprove others, are themselves exorbitant in some things; because the same must be performed, not by accommodation to the humour of Reproovers a Iren. 〈◊〉. 3. ca 5. Quis autem medicus volens curare aegrotum, faciet secundum 〈◊〉 aegrotantis & non secundum quod aptum est medicinae. , but according to the divine rule, wherein all things are strait and perfect. Lastly, when the Roman Church itself is in Schism and Combustion (which happened at the Council of Constance and Basill, and in the days of Antipopes,) shall no reformation be required, because the Parties litigant, being of contrary opinions, the same cannot be proportioned according to every ones several humour? The second reason taken from Counsels, Customs, etc. is deficient in both the parts. For neither are the Romish doctrines, to wit, Communion in one kind, Pope's pardons, Latin Service, Purgatory, Apocryphal Scriptures, Vulgar Translation preferred before the Original Text, Transubstantiation, etc. defined by any general Council, or derived from the Apostles or Primitive Church, by custom and universal consent: And later Counsels and Customs must give place to holy Scripture. Yea according to S. Augustine b Aug. c. Donat. post. Collat. ca 15. Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis Canonicis fuerint aliquando comparata. , no understanding man did ever make the Counsels of Bishops, equal to Sacred Scripture: And some of our learned Adversaries c Drieds. d. Dog. Eccles. li. 2. pa. 58. Generale Concilium, Papae, Cardinalium Episcoporum in Scriptures Propheticis intelligendis & exponendis non est nunc tantae Authoritatis; quantae fuerat olim Apostolorum Collegium. confess, That a general Council of Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops, is not of equal Authority with the College of the Apostles. Others d Read. pag. 154. & 155. Cusanus, Occam, Panormitan, Almain, forus, Cassander. also of them affirm, That such Counsels are fallible, and subject to error. The third reason wherein it is affirmed, That Protestants forsaking the common rule of Faith, present the world, with Scriptures understood by private Illumination; is grounded upon a false suggestion: for we assume to ourselves no other Illumination than only of ordinary grace; and we maintain no other exposition of Scripture as divine, but such as is delivered by the holy Ghost in the Scripture. And the sense of holy Scripture delivered by the Primitive Church, is followed by Protestants with far more respect, than by Romists. But our Aduerfaries are the men, who dissembling the same in words, do in truth maintain private Illumination: For they affirm, That the Bishops of Rome have infallibility of judgement, by the immediate inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and not by the study and meditation of holy Scripture a Greg. Val. in 3. p. Tho. Disp. 1. q. 1. punct. 7. §. 41. Sive Pontifex in definicndo, studium adhibeat, 〈◊〉 non adhibeat, modo Controversiam definiat, certè 〈◊〉 definiet. Azor. Instit. Mor. to. 2. lib. 5. cap. 5. q. 3. Si absque Concilio ullo & diligentia rem 〈◊〉, an't 〈◊〉 definiat, Spiritum fanctum sibi assistentem peculiariter habet ne labatur & erret, etc. 〈◊〉; d. sig. Eccles. lib. 16. cap. 10. Scriptura non refertur inter eiusmodi principia, quamuis illa sancta & sacra dicatur. Ibid. Sive fidem spectes, sine qua impossibile est placere Deo, sive Charitatem 〈◊〉 prima est virtus, Non ad libros, sed ad Ecclesiam membraque eius est confugiendum. Ibid. Ipsa Ecclesia propter Arctissimam cum Deo conjunctionem, non veritati invititur, sed veritas invititur Ecclesiae. Stapleton, Relect. Contr. 5. q. z. ar. 1. ad. 3. Ecclesia ut corpus & singula membra significat, aedificatur super Apostolos & Prophetas, id est super Doctrinam & praedicationem eorum: Non autem Ecclesia, ut capita & magistros significat. Illorum enim Fundamentum quatenus talium, est Spiritus Christi illis promissus, non autem praedicatio quam faciunt, aut Doctrina quam tradunt, pag. 506. . Jesuit. Wherefore, there being no possibility, that the Catholic part could gain Peace to Christendom, by any yielding unto our Adversaries, either reasonable or unreasonable; whither should lovers of Concord turn themselves, but unto your gracious Majesty, that have in your Power the Affections of Protestants, and therefore would be the fittest Instrument for their Reunion with the Roman Church? The God of Charity hath put into your Majesty's Heart a desire of Unity of the Church, and in your Hand an Olive-bough-crowne of Peace, which you may set on the Head of Christendom; which (weary of endless Contention) poureth forth unto your Majesty her Suppliant Complaint, Quem das finem (Rex magne) laborum. And seeing nothing hindereth, but that yourself are not yet satisfied in some Doctrines of the Roman Church, particularly in the Nine Points your Majesty hath set down in writing; I humbly present unto your Majesty these my poor Labours, for your satisfaction, so much desired of the Christian World. And to the end that this my Answer may be in itself more solid, and better accepted of your Majesty, before I descend unto particulars, I think best first to show in general the Roman to be the only true Church: For this was the Occasion and Subject of the Conference betwixt Dr White, and me. ANSWER. What a vast and impossible (I will not here say, impious) enterprise do you, in the depth of your sublimated wit, cast upon our Gracious Sovereign? Must his Majesty have the Office of a Proctor, and Factor, for the Court of Rome; nay, of a Lieutenant of the Papal Forces, to reunite all Protestants to the Church of Rome? Had you meant the procuring of a Free General Coancell of all Christendom, or (at least) of all the Western Church, for the reducing either of the Deviate parts home to the Truth, or the exasperated parts to a more charitable complying, in things indifferent, or tolerable (in which discussion, as well the Papacy itself, as other matters, might be subject to Trial;) such a Work might be fit for a Churchman to move, and for his Majesty to affect: than whom, no Prince (no, nor private Christian) is more forward in Zeal, and furnished in Wisdom, to purge the Distempers, and heal the Wounds of the Christian Church. But your former words show the frenzy of the Demand, when you forelay this for a Ground (Satis imperitè, nimis obstinatè) That those particular Enormities that we Protestants call to have reform, are the very Foundations of the Unity of Faith, Catholic Principles, etc. And so this your dreamt Reunion must be, not to come (on your part) one step towards us, but our running headlong to you; which is no other, than a slavish subjection of all Churches to the Papacy, and the trampling God's Truth, and God's People, under the foot of the unerrable, uncontrollable Grand Signior of the sevenhilled City. It seemeth you have forgotten, or would extinguish the validity and memory of his Majesty's most judicious Writings, in maintenance of Orthodox Religion, and of the Liberty of Christendom, and shaking the very Foundations of Papal Corruptions, and Tyranny: Otherwise, you never would thus boldly and lewdly call to so puissant a Champion in the Lords Battles, to sound Retreat: To whom the state of Christendom (to speak in your phrase) poureth forth her Suppliant Complaint; but to an end opposite to your Projects. — Qua Roma patet, fera regnat Erinys: 〈◊〉. Metamorph. lib. 1. In facinus iurasce putes: Dent ocius omnes, Quas Meruere pati (sic stat sententia) poenas. TOUCHING THE NECESSITY OF Understanding the Quality of the ROMAN CHURCH. Jesuit. Think best first to show in general the Roman to be the only true Church. For this was the occasion and subject of the conference betwixt Dr. WHITE and me, and is the most important, and manifest point of controversy, in which all other are involved. ANSWER. THe most important? Neither most nor important at all, to all, but only to those who are either involved in that Church, or vexed by it. If people may attain salvation without knowing the quality of the Roman Church, than it is not of all Questions and Controversies most important, to know whether the Roman Church is the true Church or not. But many people may be saved without this knowledge, for all they may attain salvation which are baptised, and which believe and repent, Mark 16, 16. Acts 2, 38. and which have all the ordinary means of Salvation, 1. Tim. 2, 4. But without understanding the quality of the Roman Church, people may be baptised, believe, and repent, and have all the ordinary means of salvation, as appeareth by the jews, acts 2, 41. and the Eunuch, Acts 8, 37. and Lydia, Acts 16, 14. and many Gentiles Acts 13, 48. and the elect Lady and her children 2. john v. 1, 2, 4. and the Corinthians, Galatians; Ephesians, and the seven Churches of Asia, Apoc. 2, 3. etc. Occam sayeth a Occam Dial. part. 1. li. 5. ca 23. Omnis Ecclesia extra quam potest esse salus potest contrà fide m errare, extrà Ecclesiam autèm Romanam potest esse salus, quenadmodum post ascensionem Christi fuit salus antequam Romana Ecclesia inchoaretur. that after Christ's ascension many people were saved before the Roman Church had any being: and AEneas Siluius b AEneas Siluius Epist. 288. Ante Concilium Nicenum quisque sibi vivebat, & paruus respectus habebatur ad Ecclesiam Romanam. affirmeth, That the first 300 years, before the Nicene Counsel, small regard was had of the Roman Church. johannes Maior sayeth, c Mayor 4. d. 24. q. 3. Indi & Christiani in aliis locis seperati si reliqua ad fidem necessaria crederent, nescij quod Romanus pontifex, fit caput Ecclesiae durum est dicere quod sint in statu damnationis. It were over hard to affirm, that the Indians and other Christians, which live in remote countries, should be in the state of damnation, because they were ignorant, That the Bishop of Rome is head of the Church, if they believe other necessary Articles of Salvation. And Alchasar sayeth, d Alchasar Commentar. in Apoc. ca 20 ver. 1, 2, 3. Annot. 3. Sect. 9 p. 881. Antequam nuptiae cum Romana Ecclesia per receptam publicae Christianae fidei consuetudinem celebrarentur, etc. minus frequens cum Roma Communio satis fuit. Francisc. Picus. Mitandul. Theorem. 8. Quod si quis fortè obijciat non videri sibi sanctos illos priscos pontificem veneratos 〈◊〉 fuisse ut primas illi in universa Ecclesia palàm publiceque concesserint, sed nequè ad eum pro ambiguis controuerfisquè fidei rebus, sciscitatum semper miserint, imò & in faciem restiterint atque in scribendis Epistolis non secus eos ac alium quemquam Episcoporum honorare visi sunt respondendum censeo priscae illius Ecclesiae, simplicitatem fuisse in causa etc. Et addi forraffè poterit temporaria illa bona quae nune Ecclesiastici homines possident occasionem dedisse etc. Illud etiam subdendum quod occupata 〈◊〉 in rebus Ecclesis, non erat otium de Summi Pontificis primatu curiosè perquirere disputareque, etc. Before such time as the public nuptials between the Roman and other Churches were celebrated, by a common received custom, a less frequent communion with that Church was sufficient. Seconly, It is no Article of the Apostles Creed, or of any other ancient Creed, neither is it delinered in any plain text or sentence of holy Scripture, That all Christian people must receive their belief from the Roman Church; or that the same entirely shall in all ages continue in the doctrine and faith received from the Apostles; yea the contrary is taught in holy Scripture, Rom. 11, 22. But if the doctrine aforesaid were fundamental, and of greatest importance, the same must have been plainly delivered either in holy Scripture, e August. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 2. c. 9 In iis quae aperte in Scriptura posita sunt, inveniuntur illa omnia, quae continent fidem moresque viven di, etc. Idem d. 〈◊〉. Mer. & Remiss. li. 2. c. 36. Dried. d. Eccles. Dogm. li. 2. c. 3. fol. 60. Gerson. d. vit. Spirit. Lect. 2. Coral. 7. & de Seas. Script. propos. 9 Bellarm. d. verb. Dei li. 4. c. 11. or in all, or some of the ancient Creeds. Jesuit. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, 2. Tim. 3, 15. The eminent Rock and Mountain filling the whole world, on the top whereof standeth the Tradition of saving Doctrine conspicuous and immovable, Ergo, It is the most important Controversy of all other to know, whether the Roman Church be the true Church. ANSWER. Four texts of Scripture are produced, to prove, that it is the most important controversy of all other, to know whether the Roman Church be the true Church: but neither are the places of Scripture expounded rightly, neither is the jesuits islation from them consequent or firm. 1 Although it were granted that the total certainty of Christiantie dependeth upon the Church, yet because the Roman Church is not the whole Church, but only a part and member thereof, Rom. 1, 6. and such a member as may err a Franscisc. Picus, Theorem 13. iuxtà 〈◊〉 quorundam & juris interpretum aliquornm dogmata, fieri posset ut Rom. Ecclesia quae particularis Ecclesia est contrà 〈◊〉 distincta, in side aberraret. and prove unsound, Rom. 11, 22. The knowledge of the state and quality of that Church, cannot be simply necessary, and consequently not a matter of greatest importance to be understood. 2 The places of Scripture, 1. Tim. 3, 15. Math. 16, 18. Esay 2, 1. Dan. 2, 35. prove not the question. The first place, to wit Math. 16, 18. is expounded by many interpreters of Christ himself, b Haimo & Lyra super Math. 16. Glesia Gratian. Causa 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 1. cap. Omnibus consid. Super hanc petra id est, Christum. 〈◊〉. sup. Ephes. 2. 〈◊〉. 20. Super hane petram, id est, super me aedificabo Ecclesiam meam. and by the most, of the faith which S. Peter confessed touching Christ. c August. d. verb. Dom. Serm. 13. Idem sup. joh. 〈◊〉. 124. Orig. sup 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Ambr. Epist. 38. 〈◊〉 in Luc. li. 6. ca 9 〈◊〉. Galath. ca 1. & sup. Math. Hom. 55. & 83. 〈◊〉. d. Trin. li. 2. & 6. Gregor. li. 3. Epist. 33. 〈◊〉 in joh. c. 21. The 〈◊〉 22. q. 174. ar. 6. Stella in Luc. 9 Concil. Basil. pa. 145. 〈◊〉 Contr. Scholar 3. And our Saviour affirmeth not in this Text, that the Roman Church of every age is a Rock; but that the Church of right believers is builded upon a Rock, d Aug. sup. Psal. 60. ut 〈◊〉 Ecclesia super petram, qui factus est petra, 〈◊〉 andi 〈◊〉, petra 〈◊〉 erat Christus, in illo ergo aedificati 〈◊〉. and so the Church is one thing, and the Rock another, because nothing is builded upon itself. The second place 1. Tim. 3, 15. 〈◊〉, that the Church which is the house of the living God is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pillar and ground of Truth. 1. If by the Church we understand the Catholic Church, as it containeth the holy Apostles, e Occam Dial. li. 1. c. 4. part. 1. Dried. d. Dog Eccles. li. 2. 〈◊〉. 58 Generale Concilium Pape, Cardinalium, Episcoporum, Doctorum, in Scriptures propheticis 〈◊〉, non est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authoritatis quantae fucrit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Collegium. than this commendation agreeth fully and perfectly to it, in respect of the Apostles, who were led into all Truth, john 16, 13. and which taught whilst they 〈◊〉, all Truth, and they do at this present day, in the Scripture, teach the fullness of Truth. a Aug. sup. Epist. joh. tr. 3. Chrys. sup. Ro. Hom. 30. Greg. Mor. l. 18. c. 14. 〈◊〉. Offic. l. 1. c. 23. Vincent. Lir. c. Haer. c. 41. 2. If by the Church we understand the Church of Christ, living after the Apostles, the same is by office and calling the pillar and ground of Truth in all ages. And some part or other thereof Truth of God 〈◊〉 to salvation. b Dried. d. Eccles. Dog. li. 2. ca 3. pa. 58. Glossa Interlin. sup. Math. 16. v. 18. Turrecrem. Sum. d. Eccles. li. 2. ca 91. Alphons. Castro. d. punit. Haer. li. 1. c. 5 But the present Church is not 〈◊〉 and simply, in all things, the pillar and ground of Truth, but so far only as it teacheth the doctrine revealed by the holy Ghost, and groundeth her faith upon the word of God: c Lorca. 22ae. Disp. 37. n. 15. Bellarm. d. verb. Dei li. 4. c. 9 Nihil est de fide nisi quod Deus per Apostolos aut Prophetas revelavit. and this is proved, because the Church Apostolical was free from all error, but succeeding Pastors and Doctors may err in Ecclesiastical censures, d Panormit. in 5. Decret. d. Sent. Excom. ca 28. juditium Dei, veritati quae nec fallit nec fallitur semper 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aliquandò sequitur 〈◊〉 quae saepèfallit & 〈◊〉. in degrees legislative, e Much. Medin. d. Rect. in Deum fid. li. 5. c. 11. in sermons, disputations, and other tractats (as our Adversaries themselves f 〈◊〉. d. Pontif. li. 4. 〈◊〉. Carbo. 〈◊〉. Theol. li. 4. c. 18 & li. 5. c. 8. Ex 〈◊〉 Coneilijs 〈◊〉 illa sunt ni fuerint approbatione 〈◊〉 munita, nullum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnia hujus generis 〈◊〉 in omnibus errare possunt. confess;) and they which propugne the infallible authority of the present Church, restrain the same to the Pope and Council (of which S. Paul is silent, 1. Tim. 3, 15.) And from hence I infer, That the Church wherein the Apostles taught and governed, was the ground and pillar of Truth, fully, entirely, and in all things: But the present Church is so, with limitation, conditionally, and so far forth only, as it delivereth the Apostles doctrine. Lastly, the Roman Church can challenge no greater privilege of Infallibility from this Scripture, than the church of Ephesus, g Greg. li. 6. 〈◊〉. 37. 〈◊〉 multisint Apostoli pro ipso tamen principatu sola Apostolorum principis sedes, in authoritate convalult, quae in tribus locis 〈◊〉 est. Ipse enim sublimavit sedem in qua etiam quiescere & presentem vitam finire 〈◊〉 est. Ipse 〈◊〉 sedem in qua Euangelistam 〈◊〉 misit, ipse firmavit sedem in qua septem annis 〈◊〉 discessurus sedit. Cum ergò unius atquèuna sit sedes cui ex authoritate divina tres nunc Episcopi praesidét 〈◊〉 de vobis boni audio, hoc mihi imputo. of which the Apostle speaketh literally in the said Text. But although the Church of Ephesus was by office the pillar and ground of Truth, yet the same did afterwards degenerate and depart from the right Faith; which argueth, that particular Churches, such as were the Roman, Ephesine, Corinthian, etc. are not in such sort the pillar and ground of Truth, as that they are in no danger of error h Occam Dial. p. 1. li. 2. c. 4. Sancti stante charitate possunt veritatem etc. Error qui 〈◊〉 non habet, non obuiat sanctitati. . The other two places Esay 2, 1. Dan. 2, 35. are principally understood of Christ i Aug. Psalm. 45. Erit in 〈◊〉 dicbus 〈◊〉 mons Domini, sed 〈◊〉 mons super alios montes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Quià & Apostoli montes, portantes hunc montem. and his Apostles, and they prove not the jesuits position, which is, It is the most important controversy of all other, to know whether the Roman Church is the true Church; for the present Church of Rome is a Molehill, and not the Mountain prophesied of Esay 2. the same filleth not the whole world, but only a small part of the world; neither did the same anciently, for 500 years at the least, fill the whole world, for many people, both in the East and West were Christians, without depending upon it: neither is the same always illustrious for Virtue and Truth, but sometimes notorious for Superstition and Vice a Francisco Picus Orat. ad. Leo 10. Cerrè exiquus Dei cultus nulla bene vivendi ratio atque institutio, nullus pudor, nulla modestia, justitia vel in odium vel in gratiam declinavit, pietas in superstitioné penè procubuit palamquè in 〈◊〉 hominú ordmibus 〈◊〉, etc. Sacras aedes & templa Lenonibus & Catamytis commissa quam nesarijs lupis optimi pastoris ovilia demandata etc. . If our Adnersaries will contend, That there is in all ages avisible Church, like unto a great Mountain filling the whole world, upon the top whereof standeth the Tradition of all true doctrine, conspicuous and illustrious. 1. The places of Esay and Daniel affirm not this, concerning all times and ages of the Church. 2. The Scriptures foretell a large revolt and apostasy from heavenly truth b 1. Tim 4, 1, 2. 2. Thess. 2, 2. . 3. Our Adversaries themselves acknowledge, that the outward face of the visible Church, at some times hath been, and again may be, miserably polluted with foul and enormous scandals, and abominations c Greg. Vat. 3. pa. 187. Errorum Schysmatum, persecutionum fluctibus ita agitari potest ut imperitis sit 〈◊〉 difficilis 〈◊〉 exteriorem pompam habeat. Praefat. O G ad orat. Francise. Pic. Mirandul. Cum infiniti abusus Schysmata quoque & Haereses per totum nunc Christianum orbem invalescant. Laurent. justinian. d. Compunct. 575. Declinaverunt prorsus omnes Ecclesiae status: qui spiritualia sunt corporis Christi membra: ex quibus nonnulli alienati sunt ab utero matris suae, & loquuntur falsa: aliqui verò abierunt retrorsum, carnis defideria sectantes, seipsos amantes, & temporalia lucra quaerentes, honorum cupidiscelesti adulteri & miseri. Ista namque vigent, nedum in inferioribus, verum etiàm in mediocribus, & sublimioribus membris adeo ut confusa videantur universa ut à planta pedis usque ad verticem capitis, in hoc corpore spiritualis, non appare at sanitas etc. Petrus Leidens. Epist. ad Clement. 7. antè opera Dionis. Carthus. Quid in Ecclesia non est 〈◊〉, quid non corruptum, quid non inversum? quid inter Ecclesiasticos integrum hodiè 〈◊〉 etc. JESVIT. If this Church be overthrown the total certainty of Christianity cannot but with it fall to the ground. ANSWER. The total certainty of Christianity dependeth not upon a Church illustrious, and conspicuous to the eye of the whole world, and having such external pomp and visibility as Papals imagine d 〈◊〉. d. Eccles. li. 3 c. 2. Ecclesia est caetus hominum ita visibilis & palpabilis, ut est 〈◊〉 populi Romani, 〈◊〉 Galliae, 〈◊〉 Respub. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 c. Brent. li. 3. pag. 155. . Therefore if such a Church be overthrown, that is, be proved in sundry Articles to be corrupt and unfound (which is our Tenet concerning the present Roman Church) the certainty of Christianity may still subsist. The Tenet which we maintain, touching the quality of the present Roman Church, 〈◊〉 to the reformation of errors, and abuses in the same, and not to the overthrowing of the lawful authority of the Visible Church. The certainty of Religion in the time of the jews, did depend as much upon the authority of the Visible Church of juda, as it can in our days depend upon the authority of the Roman Church, or of any other: for that Church was by office the keeper of the Canonical Scripture, Rom. 3, 2. the teacher of heavenly truth, Ezek. 44, 23, Mal. 2, 7. a ministerial judge of controversies, Deut. 17, 9 Ezek. 44, 24. and yet notwithstanding the said Church was reproved by the holy Prophets, Mal. 2, 8. 2. Chron. 29.6, 7. Esay 56, 10. Ezek. 34. and the religious kings of juda reform the same, 2. Chron. 14.3, 4. and cap. 17.7, 8, 9 and cap. 29.3. etc. and cap. 34.3, 4. and cap. 33.15. Now like as when a Physician discovereth the diseases of the body, and prescribeth remedies and medecines, he doth thereby heal, and not destroy the state of the body; so likewise, they which out of the Oracles of God, have revealed the errors and corruptions of the Roman Church, and sought reformation thereof a 〈◊〉 Def. li. d. Offic. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pa. 815. In 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 universam immeritò 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 multos esse pios viros non minore quam quisquam ipsorum praese serat, reformanda Ecclesiae study & 〈◊〉 & superstitionum odio 〈◊〉. , do not overthrow the certainty of Christianity, nor impair the lawful authority of the Church, but repair and establish the same. Jesuit. If it be hidden and made invisible, men must needs wander in the search of the first delivered Christian Doctrine, without end or hope of ever arriving at any certain Issue. And if this Controversy be not examined and determined in the first place, disputation by Scripture will prove fruitless; by the Non ad Scripturas provocandum nec in eyes constituendum, certamen in quibus nulla aut parum certa 〈◊〉, Tertul. in prescript. ca 19 sole evidence whereof, no victory can be gotten against proteruious error, or at least not victory that is very apparent; neither will answers about particular Doctrines satisfy a mind preoccupated with a long continued dislike of them. ANSWER. In this Section two things are delivered, First, If the Church be hidden, etc. Secondly: Controversies cannot be decided by sole Scripture, etc. To the first I answer, The Church, (that is the society of Christian people, professing saving Faith) is at no time totally bidden and invisible b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 d. 〈◊〉 in Epist. Dedic. 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 in se, & 〈◊〉, ut 〈◊〉 quoddam est, sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 solum, visibilem 〈◊〉 negamus: Et quod hic 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉, id in suis partibus personis, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 visibile affirmamus esse. Nec posse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉: said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est, sic esse in se, ac inter suos & Antiochi, & aliorum temporibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , but in Persecution, the same may be hidden and unknown to them which 〈◊〉 no will to know it, 2. Cor. 4, 3. or which desire to know it, that they may persecute and oppress it, Revelat. 12, 14. And the same may sometimes cease to be largely, and in a 〈◊〉 and pompous. manner visible, Math. 10, 23. and 23, 34. Heb. 11, 38. And in the state of Persecution, when the same is hidden and unknown to enemies, the friends of this Church, to whom it is known, may by the Ministry thereof exercised in private a Acts 1, 13. etc. 12, 12. etc. 〈◊〉. Pollidor. d. Invent. 〈◊〉 li. 5. c. 6. , receive the certainty of belief: and if it be unknown or hidden to any of them, these may by private reading, or meditation of that which they have formerly learned, supply the defect of public Ministry b Occam Dial. li. 5. ca 34. Fides Cath, Christi poterit remanere in Catholicis dispersis & latitantibus in terris ab infidelibus occupatis etc. Turrian. 22. Disp. 2. Dub. 4. Conditio aliquandò non est immediata propositio per Ecclesiam sed vel per Concionatorem vel parents, qui docent filios. , even as some Christians at this day, being slaves in Turkey or Barbary, may be saved without external Ministry. And it is also possible for such to be Instruments of converting and saving others c Accost. d. Proc. Ind. Sal. lib. 2. ca 9 Ecclesiasticae historiae narrant tempore Constantini magni, totam Iberiam provinciam quae est Armeniae proxima Christianae mulieris captivae opera & signis ad Christum esse conversam. , Ruffian. Hist. Eccles. li. 1. c. 9, & 10. Besides, we do also acknowledge, that the Popish Church, although it were corrupt and unsound in many things, yet it preserved the Books of holy Scripture, and taught the Apostles Creed, and sundry parts of Divine verity collected from the same d Libavius c. Gretser. Triumph. c. 13. pa. 103. mansit aliqua lux verbi Dei ut Euangelij lectiones, Symbola, Oratio Dominica & Baptismi substantialia etc. Gomar. Spec. ver. Eccles. pa. 201. Compertum est etiam nunquam in Papatu tam densas 〈◊〉 tenebras, quin aliqua fuerit publica in templis Euangelij lectio, & promissionum Euangelij pro concione quamuis adjunctis erroribus repetitio & 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 mirandum complures Dei spiritu adjunante ad 〈◊〉 fidem praeteritis quasi surda aure expositionum vestrarum corruptelis Euangelij voce conversos. : and by these Principles of Christianity preserved in that Church, judicious and pious men might with study and diligence find out, what was the first delivered Christian Doctrine, in such things as are necessary to Salvation; as in the jewish Church, when the same was corrupt in manners and doctrine, Mal. 2, 8. Esay 56, 10. 2. Kings 16, 11, 16. Marc. 6, 34. the Books of holy Scripture, and many remnants of Divine truth (which were able to save Gods elect) remained and were sufficient Principles, from whence all saving truth might be derived e Hieron. Sup. Nah. cap. 3. In adventu ergo Christi & Sermonis Dei & Doctrinae 〈◊〉 & consummationis Niniue speciocissimae quondam meritricis: elevabitur & properabit 〈◊〉, qui sub magistris ante fuerat consopitus, & ibit and montes Scripturarum: ibique inveniet Montes Moysen, & jesum filium Nave Montes Prophetas, Montes Novi Testamenti Apostolos & Euangelistas, & cum ad tales Montes confugerit & in hujusmodi montium fuerir lectione versatus si non invenerit qui eum doceat, messis enim multa operarij autem pauci tunc & illius studium comprobabitur 〈◊〉 confugerit ad Montes & Magistrorum defidia coarguetur. Espenc. Com. in Epist. Tit. c. 2. pa. 259. Nun videtur tum Propheta, tum interpres nostri 〈◊〉, & Pastorum filentium ne 〈◊〉 ignaviam & populi ante cum eis consopiti, quasi è gravi somno excitati studium & ad Sctipturas tum audiendas tum legendas 〈◊〉 alacritatem praedicere & quasi digito indicare. , and pernicious errors and abuses discovered and reform. And thus although the true Church be granted at sometimes to be hidden and invisible, in manner before expressed, well affected people shall not want all means to understand what was the first delivered Christian faith. The jesuit in the next passage laboureth to make it appear impossible, to end and determine Controversies of Religion, without the authority of a perpetual visible Church, whose judgement is always infallible, and free from all error. But if his speech be resolved from a Rhethoricall flourish, into form of Argument, the looseness of it will appear. For he proceedeth in this or the like manner: Jesuit. By all such means as is of itself sufficient to declare what was the first delivered Christian Doctrine apparent, victory may be gotten against proteruious error, and minds preoccupated with long dislike of particular Doctrines may be satisfied. By sole Scripture no apparent victory can be gotten against proteruious error, neither can long dislike of particular Doctrines be satisfied: Ergo, sole Scripture is not a sufficient means to declare what was the first delivered Christian Doctrine. ANSWER. First, If by apparent Victory, be meant such Victory, as proteruious errants will confess, or persuade themselves to be a Victory against them, than the Mayor Proposition is false. For when our Saviour himself confuted the Pharisees, by such demonstration as none could be greater, yet they resisted the Truth, and in like sort they resisted St. Stephen, Acts 7, 53. and S. Paul, Acts 28, 23. and in the best Counsels of Nice, Ephesus, etc. no such apparent Victory was gotten of proteruious Heretics a Euseb. vit. Constant. lib. 2. c. 71. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Socrat. Hist. Eccles. lib. 1. c. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. . Secondly, If by apparent Victory, be meant a true and sufficient confutation and conviction of Errants, than the Minor is false; for that is a sufficient means to obtain Victory, by which our Saviour himself subdued Satan, Math. 4.4, 7. and the Heretics of his time, Math. 12, 3. & 22, 29, 43. and by which St. Paul confuted the Pharisees, and other Adversaries, Acts 17, 2. and 28, 23. And whereby the Fathers of the Nicene Council convicted the Arrians b 〈◊〉 Dial. p. 3 tr. 1. lib. 3. ca 6. 〈◊〉. Cyzicen. in Acta. Concil. Nicen. pa. 2. , Socrat. Hist. l. 1. c. 6. c Exquifitis legis divinae testimonijs. Dist. 15. c. 1. 〈◊〉. and which are given by inspiration to be an effectual means to reprove and confute error, 2. Tim. 3, 16. Chrys. d. fid. & leg. not d Quandò haec dicit Haereticus nos à Sancta Scriptura 〈◊〉 proferamus 〈◊〉 enim 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 inimicorum Regis 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Orgelit. in Cantic. 〈◊〉 hac Sancta Scriptura omnis armatura 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Diu. Nom. c. 〈◊〉. Nos 〈◊〉 Scriptura, quasi norma & luce adhibita, constanter ad 〈◊〉 nostra, pro 〈◊〉 parte 〈◊〉. . But the jesuit may cavil, saying, that even as a sword in the hand of a Giant, is sufficient to 〈◊〉 an enemy, but not in the hand of a child who cannot use it; so the Scriptures are a means to convict proteruious 〈◊〉, as they were used by Christ and his Apostles, and by the 〈◊〉 Counsels or Papal Counsels, and the Bishops and Doctors of the Roman Church, etc. Answ. First, Our Saviour and his Apostles did both use the Scriptures themselves, and commanded others, even simple men to use them a Chrys. Gen. 〈◊〉. 37. Christus praecepit dioens scrutemini Scripturas, ut nòn tantùm 〈◊〉 lectioni vacemus sed indagatis profundis, verum sensum 〈◊〉 percipere valeamus, etc. , john 5, 39 Ephes. 6, 17. and they are commended who examined Doctrine by them. Acts 17, 11. Secondly, they which understand and apply the Scriptures truly, use them as Christ and his Apostles did, and so the Scripture in their use is a word of power, and not as a sword in a child's hand. Thirdly, Scriptures were means to convict Heretics (as they were used by the Fathers of the Church, and other holy Persons) before any general Counsels were gathered, to wit the first three hundred years, and before the Papal Supremacy was advanced in the Church. Fourthly, it is ridiculous to imagine, that the present Roman Church, and the sole Adheres thereof, according to the Trident Creed, are the only true expositors of holy Scriptures; or that 〈◊〉 exposition of Scripture, repugnant and diverse from the present Roman Creed, is false or Haereticall: for neither hath the holy Ghost by express testimony, or evident demonstration, appropriated the key of knowledge to this Church, and few Heretics have more foully corrupted and abused the Scriptures. And the pillars of this Church 〈◊〉 sundry times been unskilful Idiots, unlettered Gulls, Monsters of mankind, with whom the holy Spirit useth not to have commerce b Francisc. Pic. Theo. 18. Persuasissimum nobis esse debet 〈◊〉 modò eos qui Doctiores, sed & 〈◊〉 sunt clarius & exquisitius caeteris, veritatem agnoscere & agnitam 〈◊〉 etc. Quis enim ambigat, 〈◊〉 hominem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 committere, quem probatae perspectaeque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quam qui bonitatis expers aut indigus, doctrina 〈◊〉 pollet. Et D. Ambros. de paradiso 〈◊〉: neminem debere se alteri credere, nisi 〈◊〉 virtutem probaverit. , Wisdom. 1. 2. Cor. 6. 15. Fiftly, the place of Tertul. d. Prescript. c. 19 doth not 〈◊〉 the imperfection of holy Scripture to convict proteruious error, according to the latter part of my former distinction; for than he could not have said, Scripturae plenitudinem adoramus; We adore the plenitude of the 〈◊〉, and, Let Hermogenes teach c Tert. cont. 〈◊〉. cap. 22. 〈◊〉 Hermogenes scriptum esse, si non est scriptum timeat 〈◊〉 illud, adijcientibus aut detrahentibus destinatum. , that it is written: and if it be not written, let him fear the Woe denounced against them which add or detract any thing from the word of God: but be 〈◊〉 of the Scriptures, according to the first part of my distinction, to wit, That Heretics blinded with malice, and either denying or corrupting the text a 〈◊〉 Cum ex Scriptures 〈◊〉 in accusationem 〈◊〉 ipsarum Scripturarum quafi non rectè se habeant, nequè fint ex authoritate etc. Iren. li. 3. ca 2. of the Scriptures, b Tertul. d. Prescript. c. 17. Ista Haetefis non recipit quasdam Scripturas: Et si quas recipit adiectionibus & detractionibus ad 〈◊〉 instituti sui 〈◊〉, & fi recipit non recipit integras & si aliqua tenùs integras praestat, nihilomin' diversas expositiones commentata convertit. cannot be so convicted by them, but they will still use cavils, and by Sophistical slights borrowed from Philosophers c Tertul. d. Praescr. c. 7. & C. Marc. li. 5. c. 19 Chrys. prol. sup. 1. Corinth. Hieron. sup. Esa. c. 19 & 〈◊〉. sup. Daniel. elude the evidence of the plain Texts of Scriptures. But if this argue the Scriptures of imperfection, it will also prove the Authority of the Church, and of Tradition, to be insufficient, as appears in the Arrians and Donatists. And Heretics may with no less pretext, take exception against Tradition, and Ecclesiastical Authority, than against the Scripture, Ireneus li. 3. ca 2. When they are confuted by Scriptures, they accuse them as being not well written, and destitute of Authority, or else so ambiguous that one cannot find the Truth by them etc. And in like manner when we provoke them to stand to trial by Tradition, which came from the Apostles d Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem, quae est ab Apostolis quae per successiones presbiterorum in Ecclesus custoditur, provocamus eos, adversantur Traditioni. etc. they oppose the same etc. And thus they will consent neither to Scripture nor Tradition e Euenit itaque nequè Scriptures iam nequè Traditioni eos consentire. . And Gregory Valence f Greg. val. 〈◊〉. 3. Disp. 1. p. 1. pa. 36. Revelatio divina & propositio infallibilis Ecclesiae, non minus obscura nobis est quam quilibet alius Articulus fidei credendus. himself saith, The infallible teaching and proposition of the Church is no less obscure unto us than any other Article which we are to believe. Sixtly, we acknowledge the lawful Power and Authority of the Church g Calvin Institut. li. 4. c. 1. num. 10. Whitak. Duplic. li. 1. c. 9 Christi Ecclesiam summa veneratione prosequimur, & authoritatem Ecclesie libenter amplectimur: & 〈◊〉 Christianum nunquam esse arbitrabor, qui testimonium & iuditium Ecclesiae nihili fecerit. , about expounding holy Scriptures, and for maintaining Unity in right Faith, and appeasing contention, & repressing proteruious Errants, Heb. 13.17. Math. 18.17.1. Timoth. 3.15. 2. Thessal. 5.12. And in particular, first we believe the authority of Counsels General and national, lawfully assembled, and accordingly proceeding, to be sacred. h 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Fid. 2d Gratian. 〈◊〉. Hist. Eccles. l. 1. c. 7. Socrat. Hist. Eccles. l. 1. c. 6. Greg. lib. 1. Ep. 24. 〈◊〉 Walden. to. 1. li. 2. c. 20. De quatuor conciliis magnis quod Gregorius ea videtur comparare 〈◊〉, non autem comparar sed similitudinem quandam insinuat 〈◊〉 in Enangelio Christus, 〈◊〉 perfectificut 〈◊〉 vester coelest. Matth. 5. And all Counsels of this nature we reverence with the same honour the ancient Church did, i 〈◊〉. d. Bapt. l. 1. c. 7. etc. 18. & l. 2. c. 8. D. Andr. C. Apolog. Bellarm. c. 14. Date nobis 〈◊〉 legitimè congregata & procedentia in corum sententiam imus statim. Occam. Dialog. part. 3. l. 3. c. 13. affirming that private Christians and particular Churches, are to submit their judgement to the authority of the same, except it be manifest that they depart from Truth. Secondly, we highly and reverently esteem exposition of Scripture, delivered by the unanimous consent of the Primative Fathers a 〈◊〉. Epist. ad Micon. Chemnic. Examine. Concil. Trid. part. 1. pag. 78. Calvin. Commentar. Act. 8. ver. 31. Praefat. to BB. jewels works last edit. D. Andr. BB. Winch. c. Apolog. Belarm. c. 14. pa. 333. 〈◊〉 Respon. ad Perion. pa. 20. 〈◊〉. d. Colloq. Ratisbon. pa. 182. Herbrand. Disp. 41. n. 16. Meisuer. Excub. pa. 43. : and although we yield eminent and supreme Authority to the holy Scriptures b Serran. Apparat. ad Fid. Cath. Summa quidem Dei eiusquè Scripturae authoritas est: verum sua quoquè Ecclesiae iurisdictio, constat sua authoritas. , because the same is absolutely divine, yet when any question ariseth concerning Expositions, we allow not private persons c D. Bilson. Govern. of the Church, ca 13. pa. 280. Meisner. Excub. Papist. pa. 175. Si omnes ab Apostolis per omnia secula patres primarium quoddam & maximè controversum Scripturae dictum in quo articulus aliquis fidei Christianae fundatur 〈◊〉 modo adeoquè pleno & unanimi conseusu exposuerint, tùm sanè ab ista conformi patrum expositione, non est recedendum, meritoquè suspectus esse debet omnis ille sensus, qui tanto patrum consensui directo opponitur. upon uncertain or probable reasons, to reject the sense, which hath been anciently and commonly received, and against which no strong or solid exception can be produced. Now this being observed, and other helps of expounding Scripture used, there followeth nothing from our Tenet, whereby Christianity should be made uncertain, and Disputation from sole Scripture prove fruitless, or which may hinder apparent Victory (by the same) against proteruious Error. Jesuit. The Preface ended, our Adversary descendeth to his disputation, and herein, first he setteth down a main proposition, which he intendeth to prove, to wit, The Roman Church is the only true Church. Secondly, He delivereth five Principles manifest in themselves, and presupposed and confessed by Papists and Protestants. Principle 1. No man can be saved without firm and sure apprehension of supernatural Truth, concerning his last end, and the means to attain thereunto. Secondly, Assurance of this kind is not had by clear sight Demonstration, humane Discourse, or humane Authority, but by Faith grounded upon God's Word, revealing things unknown by other means. Thirdly, God revealed all Supernatural Truth to Christ, and Christ revealed the same to the holy Apostles, partly by vocal Preaching, but principally by the immediate teaching of his holy Spirit, to this end, that they should deliver them to mankind, to be received and believed every where over the World, even to the consummation thereof. Fourthly, the Apostles fulfilled this preaching to all Nations, and delivering partly by writing, and partly by word of mouth, the whole entire Doctrine of Salvation; planted an universal Christian company , and to deliver unto 〈◊〉, all they had 〈◊〉 from them. Fiftly, though the Apostles and their Primative Hearers be deceased, yet there still remains in the World a means, by which men may assuredly know what the Apostles preached, andthe Primative Church received of them, because the Church, even to the endof the World, must be founded on the Apostles, and believe nothing as matter of Faith, but that which was delivered by them. The former grounds being confessed, a question remaineth to be examined: What is the principal infallible means whereby a Christian may know what was, and is the Doctrine of Faith, originally preached by the Apostles, Whether holy Scripture of the Apostles and Evangelists be that means, or perpetual Tradition unwritten, derived by Succession from the Apostles? ANSWER. The jesuit affirmeth the latter, and produceth four Arguments to prove his Tenet; and then supposing that he hath proved the Question, inferreth that the Roman Church is the only true Church, because it is the only faithful keeper and teacher of this Tradition. JESVITS 1. Argument. If the main and substantial points of our Faith are believed to be Apostolical, because written in the Scripture of the New Testament, and the Scriptures of the New Testament are believed to come from the Apostles, upon the voice of perpetual Tradition unwritten; then our resolution, That our Faith is Apostolical, stayeth finally upon Tradition unwritten. But the main and substantial points of our Faith are believed to be Apostolical, because they are written in Scriptures, and the Scriptures etc. are believed to come from the Apostles by perpetual Tradition unwritten. Ergo, Our resolution that our Faith is Apostolical, resteth finally upon Tradition unwritten. ANSWER. If the second part of the Antecedent, to wit, And the Scriptures of the new Testament, are believed to come from the Apostles upon the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Tradition unwritten, be understood without any further explication or addition, than the sequel of the Mayor is denied: and if only, or principally, be added to unwritten Tradition, than the Assumption is false. First, although the Scriptures of the new Testament, are believed to come from the Apostles, upon the voice of perpetual Tradition, yet because they are not believed thus to descend by the said voice, as upon the only or principal ground, therefore it is inconsequent to infer, our resolution that our faith is Apostolical, stayeth lastly and finally upon Tradition. If the Argument be reduced to a categorical form, the defect will easily appear: That upon whose voice the Scriptures of the new Testament are believed to come from the Apostles, is the growd whereupon our faith lastly and finally stayeth. Perpetual Tradition, is that upon whose voice the Scriptures of the new Testament are believed to come from the Apostles. Therefore perpetual Tradition is the ground whereupon our faith lastly and finally stayeth. In this Argument the Mayor proposition is false, for that is not always the last ground of Resolution, upon whose voice and testimony we do first of all, or prioritate or dinis, vel temporis, in priority of time, or order, believe things: because there may be other grounds of belief, equal, or of greater authority than the first voice; and the first voice upon which we believe b 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. Cred. c. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sapienti quis 〈◊〉 sed id nunc 〈◊〉 ut sapientes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 d. Sacr. Doct. & Deo. l. 1. tr. 2. c. 1. d. fid. form. Disp. 3. Sect. 12. n. 13. 〈◊〉 potest ex humana authoritate generari quandam fidem humanam, praeviam ad fidem infusam, non tanquam fundamentum vel rationem formalem eius, sed tanquá conditionem, & applicationem obiecti. p. 135. , may be only an introduction or motive of credibility. For example: One may believe that Moses or the Prophets were the Authors of the Scriptures of the old Testament, upon the voice and testimony of the jews, yet this testimony is not the last ground of resolution, etc. One may believe upon the testimony of josephus, c Joseph. Antiq. jud. l. 18. c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. That jesus Christ was a wise man, yea more than a man, and that he wrought many great miracles, and was crucified, and appeared again the third day alive, and was honoured by jews and Gentiles: yet this voice and Testimony of josephus is not the final ground of faith's resolution. If 〈◊〉 be taken to these 〈◊〉, that they proceed 〈◊〉 from humane 〈◊〉, whereas the voice of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is 〈◊〉; I 〈◊〉 ere two things. First, that the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of faith, is not always made into that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, upon whose voice and 〈◊〉 as appeareth by St. john Baptist, for upon his voice and 〈◊〉, which did not finally and principally 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, but into the voice of Christ himself, john 5. 33, 36. Secondly, although the vocal Tradition of the Apostles themselves, concerning the Scriptures of the new Testament, when they delivered or commended the same a Euseb. Eccles. Hist. l. 3. c. 21. Cum trium Euangelistarum Scripta ad sanctos iam, & ad ipsum quoque johanne 〈◊〉 probasse quidem 〈◊〉, & veritatis illis dedisse testimonium. to their immediate hearers, was totally and perfectly divine, both in regard of the matter testified, and in respect of their own persons who were witnesses immediately sent and inspired of God; yet the subsequent History, and report of this former, made by those which were remote from the Apostles age, is not simply and perfectly divine, but only in part, for when it faithfully reporteth that which the Apostles said and did, it is divine in regard of the matter and thing testified, but is humane b Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. Fid. vol. 3. Dub. 10. c. 9 Comparatione buius (Scripturae) testimonium Ecclesiae dici quodammodo potest testimonium bominum utpote quod in rigore sermonis non obtineat 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 ad rationem verbi Dei. pag 55. col. 2. in regard of the quality of the witnesses, and the manner of testification, because these succeeding witnesses were not equal in verity to the holy Apostles, 〈◊〉 free from possibility of error, nor such as immediately heard the Apostles. Hereupon Aquinas himself holdeth, c 〈◊〉. l. 12. c. 3. that our faith doth only rest upon those revelations which the Authors of the holy Scriptures published: and Durand d with many other Schoolmen e saith, that the faith which is grounded upon the approbation of the Church is only acquisite. f 〈◊〉. 22. q. 1. Disput. 2. Dub. 3. Fides acquisita semper resoluitur in bumanum. Canus. loc. l. 2. c. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per fidem acquisitam ita quin formidemus eum possevel 〈◊〉 vel 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Picus Mirandul. Theorem. 3. sub esse potest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉, Deo 〈◊〉, sed . And if this be true, then because the credit of unwritten Traditions, dependeth in respect of us, upon the authority of the Church since the Apostles, (which Churches voice being not formally divine, can of itself only produce acquisite faith) the last and final resolution of divine faith, cannot be made into the voice of Tradition unwritten. And thus much concerning the sequel of the Mayor proposition. But if the jesuit, when he saith, the Scriptures of the new Testament are believed to come from the Apostles, upon the voice of perpetual Tradition unwritten, do means that the said Scriptures are believed to 〈◊〉 from the Apostles, upon the voice of unwritten Tradition, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, than the assumption is false: for they are 〈◊〉 to come from the Apostles by written Tradition, as well as by unwritten, and more principally upon the voice of the Apostles, speaking in and by their Scriptures, than upon the only testimony of unwritten Tradition. It is usual and common for one man to certify another, of such matters as he desireth he should know, by an Epistle or writing: So likewise the holy Apostles desiring a that all the world, for whose instruction they wrote, should know that these Scriptures are their work, have declared the same by their own testimony, recorded in those books. St. john affirms, that he is the Author of his Gospel, and of the Revelation, john 21, 24. Reuel. 1, 4. St. Paul and other Apostles do the like concerning the Epistles, Rom. 1, 1. 2. Cor. 10, 10. Collos. 4. 18. 1. Pet. 1, 1. jam. 1, 1. jude v. 1. And that the holy Apostles and Evangelists do speak unto people of all ages by their books and writings, is affirmed by the Fathers: St. August. saith, b Ipsum Paulum audi, etc. Hear thou, even Paul himself. St. Chrysost. c If thou desirest, thou mayest hear Paul, Peter, john, and the whole company of the Prophets speaking unto thee, take the books of these blessed ones into thine hands, read their Scriptures, and thou mayest hear, not Paul only, but even Paul's Lord speaking unto thee by Paul's mouth. But it is objected against this, by Bellarmine and others, d that counterfeit Authors may speak in the name and person of the Apostles; to wit, a Bastard Heretic, in the name of St. Bartholomew, or St. Peter, etc. I answer with St. Augustine, e the same may be done in all humane, and ecclesiastical writings, and yet sufficient means are found, partly in the History of times, partly in the writings of every Author, to confute Impostors. And concerning the holy Scriptures, we have two means to know their Authors: the one Ecclesiastical, to wit, the perpetual History of the Church, since the Apostles departure, f whereby is produced a moral persuasion and credibility, than which none can be greater in that kind, by reason of the antiquity, number, consent, and sanctity of the witnesses which testify this: the other totally divine, g to wit, the matter, and form of Doctrine contained in the the said books to be 〈◊〉 and if they be can speak in them. And that within those books, is affirmed by the 〈◊〉 Among which 〈◊〉 are taken from the internal a 1. 〈◊〉. Prol. ar. 2. Ibid. Giner. pa. 9 〈◊〉. ab Incarnate. Lect. 3. p. 20. Polla. sup. Scot q. 2. discurs. 2. p. 14. matter and majesty of the books; and Gregory Valence b contained in the same Scripture, etc. And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c , that the 〈◊〉 of God is seen by faith in the holy d faith, The Scripture is a fair 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 e You have before , 2. Pet. 1. 19 And 〈◊〉 August. f . And therefore, as a 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 others, by the same light or 〈◊〉 manifests itself g : so the holy Scripture enlightening the Church, demonstrates his own 〈◊〉 and virtue. And thus 〈◊〉 we be first directed and holpen by unwritten Tradition to know the Scriptures, yet the Tradition of the present Church, is 〈◊〉 the only last and principal ground whereunto we resolve 〈◊〉. If the jesuits Argument be retorted upon himself, it will demonstrate, that our Faith is finally resolved into holy Scripture, and not into unwritten Tradition h ; for inverting 〈◊〉 order of the 〈◊〉, and retaining the matter, I argue as followeth. If the main and 〈◊〉 points of Faith are 〈◊〉 to be 〈◊〉, because of the 〈◊〉 of perpetual Tradition unwritten, and 〈◊〉 Tradition unwritten is believed to be Apostolical, because of the authority of the Scripture; then our resolution, that our Faith is Apostolical, resteth finally upon the Scripture. But the Antecedent is true, Ergo etc. The Assumption is confirmed two ways. First, by the practice of Papals which confirm their doctrine of Tradition, by testimonies of Scripture, alleging, 2. Thess. 2. 15. 1. Tim. 6. 20. & 2. Tim. 1. 16. Secondly, because the credit of Tradition, in respect of us, dependeth upon the authority of the Church, and the authority of the Church upon the Scriptures. Both these assertions are maintained by the Papals. First, They say that the authority of Tradition, in respect of us, dependeth upon the Church. Gretsar. a Si 〈◊〉 unde cognoscat propositionem Ecclesiae esse infallibilem, dicat se, etc. credere fide infallibili, tùm ob revelationem Scripturae testimonium perhibentis Ecclesiae, etc. def. Bellarm. d. verbo Dei, lib. 4. cap. 9 Vitus miletus cont. 〈◊〉. loc. 27. Error. 615. Secondly, They confirm the Church's authority by the Scriptures, 1. Tim. 3.15. Math. 18.17. Eph. 4. 11, 12, 13, 14. Gregory Valence tom. 3. disput. 1. punct. 1. pa. 40. & ibid. punct. 7. pa. 327. Driedo. b Dried. d. Eccles. Dcgm. l. 4. part. 3. c. 4. De Ecclesia 〈◊〉 nùnc est intelligendo eam ut praecisam & abstractam seu nudam, etc. diceret Aug. Ego huius Ecclesiae homines non agnoscerem esse Ecclesiam Christi, nisi doceret me 〈◊〉 Euangelistarum authoritas. fol. 239. d. Eccles. dogm. li, 2. c. 3. pa. 59 Stapleton c 〈◊〉. Tripl. c. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut Ecclesiae credamus, nòn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authoritate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in genere causae 〈◊〉) huius fidei nostrae causa: sed partìm ex Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, partìm ex ipso fidei Symbolo etc. triplic. c. 15. pa. 179. And thus will they nill they, they are compelled to make holy Scripture the last and final resolution of Faith: for if we believe Tradition upon the authority of the Church, and the Church's authority for the Scripture, than we must of 〈◊〉 make the Scripture our last and final resolution of 〈◊〉 which is the Tenet of the Fathers. S. Chris. sup. Psal. 95. d Si quid dicitur absque Scriptura, auditorum cogitatio 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 annuens, nunc 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, interdùm ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 ubi è Scriptura divinae vocis prodijt testimonium, & loquentis sermonem, & . August. sup. Psalm. 67. Dormire intèr medios cleros est in 〈◊〉 Testamenti authoritate 〈◊〉, ut quandò aliquid ex hijs . When any thing is delivered without the warrant of Scripture, the hearers thought staggereth, sometimes consenting, and then again 〈◊〉, and another while rejecting the same as 〈◊〉, etc. but when the testimony of Divine Voice is delivered out of the Scripture, it both confirmeth the saying of the Speaker, and mind of the Hearer. Jesuit. So it is, that the Scripture of the New Testament 〈◊〉 not be proved to have been delivered unto the Church by the Apostles, but by perpetual Tradition underwritten, conserved in the Church succeeding the Apostles: for what other proof can be imagined, except one would prove it by the titles of the Books, which were absurd, seeing doubt may be made, Whether those titles were set on the Books by the Apostles themselves; of which doubt Tradition only can resolve us. Besides, the Gospel of S. Mark, and S. Luke, and also the Acts of the Apostles were not written by any Apostles, but were by their lively voice and suffrages recommended unto Christians as sacred, otherwise (as also Mr. Bilson noteth) they should never have obtained such eminent authority in the Church, neither should they be now so esteemed, but upon the supposal of Apostolical approbation: but how shall we know the Apostles saw these writings, and recommended the same unto Christian Chnrches, but by Tradition? ANSWER. The point which the Adversary endeavours to prove, is, That the Scriptures of the New Testament are believed, by divine Faith, to come from the Apostles, only and principally by the testimony of perpetual Tradition unwritten: he endeavoureth to perform this by disproouing other means, to wit, the titles of the Books, etc. The sum of his argument is, Either perpetual Tradition unwritten, is the only ground of this belief, or else the Titles of the Books. But the Titles of the Books are not the only ground, because doubt may be made of their credit, etc. And some of the Books of the New Testament were not penned by the Apostles, but by their Suffrages recommended to Christians, and so became Authentical in the Church. And this approbation is not expressed in the Titles of the Books, but is only made known by Tradition. I answer: It followeth not that Tradition unwritten is the Oreg. Arimin. 1. d. z. q. 1. Ar. 4. Merè credendum est, quod contenta in sacra Scriptura sucrunt à Christo reuclata. Per nullam enim viam hoc scimus, nisi quia hoc credit Ecclesia, & sic audivimus à patribus nostris, & sic in praedicta Scriptura 〈◊〉. only or principal ground whereupon we believe the Scriptures of the New Testament to be Apostolical, although the titles of the Books alone are not so; for besides the external Titles, there be three other grounds, arguing the said Books to be Apostolical. First, the inward Subscription (1. Corinth. 16.21. and Inscription, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 1. Rom. 1. 1.) of many of these Books, and namely of all Saint Paul's Epistles (except to the Hebrews a Chrysoft. sup. Rom. Hom. 1. Quod autèm in Epistola quae ad Hebraeos est hunc Epistolaré adiungendi nominis modum non seruavit singulari factum est prudendentia. Quandoquidem enim Hebraei non erant amico erga paulum animo, ne statim à principio nomen illius audientes, toti Epistolae aditum praecluderent, sapientèr illi visum est suppresso authoris nomine illorum allicere auditum. ) together with the Revelations of Saint john, and the other Canonical Epistles. Secondly, In diverse Books there is found apparent testimony, within the same, that the Apostles were the Authors, john 21. 24. 1. Cor. 15. 10. 1. Tim. 1. 13. Renel. 1. 4. Thirdly, In those Books which want such inward inscription or testimony, the matter and form of the Books, their harmony with the Scriptures of the Old Testament, and with those other of the New Testament, which have inscription, and the voice of the holy Ghost speaking in them b Aug. Epist. 3. quasi amicus familiaris sine fuco ad cor loquitur doctorum & indoctorum. Serranus, Appar. ad fid. Catholic. pa. 51. Ea vis est Scripturae à Deo inspiratae, ut Dei majestas in ca eluceat. Etpa. 55. Lux sua se vi, ipsam prodit. , will prove them to be divine: and if they be divine, than it followeth, that they are Apostolical (either by the Apostles own writing, or approbation) because the Church of the New Testament is builded upon the foundation of the Apostles, Eph. 2. 20. and our Saviour himself did appoint their Doctrine and Ministry to be the prime rule of Faith, Math. 28. 20. Luc. 10. 16. & c. 24. 48, 49. And whosoever in their days (by preaching, or writing) instructed the Church, must receive approbation from them c Aug. c. Faust. li. 28. c. 4. 〈◊〉. Apolog. Aug. Ep. 11. Ireneus lib. 3. prol. Prosola vera & vivifica fide quam ab Apostolis Ecclesiae accepit & distribuit filijs suis. Etenim Dominus 〈◊〉 dedit Apostolis suis potestatem Euangelij per quos veritatem hoc est filij doctrinam 〈◊〉, etc. 228. , Gallath. 2. 2. 9 The titles prefixed before the Books of the New Testament, being joined with these three grounds formerly expressed, are sufficient to prove, that the holy Apostles were the Authors, or Approvers of all the Scriptures of the New Testament: and if these (with other humane motives of credibility) be not, the same doubt which is made concerning them, may with greater probability be made concerning unwritten Traditions d Greg. Val. Analis. fid. li. 5 c. 8. Read before pag. 28. . And secluding the authority of the Scripture itself, no other divine testimony can be produced, to satisfy them which are doubtful, touching the verity of unwritten Tradition, and the authority of the present Church. If one will not believe the Scriptures, because of the authority of God e 〈◊〉. d. Lazaro. hom. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 come. Theol. li. 1. tr. 7. ca 2. n. 3. itaque qui de hoc Canone 〈◊〉, excludendus à Theologia, quià aberrat ab ostio, sicut ij qui in scientijs negant principia. speaking in them, neither will he believe the present Church consisting of persons, in whom is possibility of error. Jesuit. For we may distinguish three properties of the Doctrine of Faith, to wit, to be true, to be revealed of God, to be preached and delivered by the Apostles. The highest ground by which I am persuaded and resolved that my Faith is true, is the authority of God revealing it; the highest ground on which I am resolved that my Faith is revealed, is the credit and authority of Christ jesus and his Apostles, who delivered the same as divine and sacred; but the highest ground that moveth me to believe that my Faith was preached by the Apostles, is the perpetual Tradition of the Church succeeding the Apostles, that so teacheth me. ANSWER. The last part of the former distinction is denied. The highest ground meaning divine, which moveth us to believe that the doctrine of Faith was preached by the Apostles, is not the perpetual Tradition of the Church succeeding the Apostles, but the holy Scripture of the New Testament; for the perpetual Tradition of the Church succeeding the Apostles is believed, because of the authority of the said Church: and whosoever believeth that Tradition or Testimony, must first of all know the Church to be an infallible witness. But the word of God only (the greater and most worthy part whereof, by our Adversary's confession, is contained in the Scriptures a 〈◊〉. d. Vetbo Dei l. 1. c. 2. Cum sacra Scriptura regula credendi certissima 〈◊〉 fit. Lib. 4. c. 11. Dico illa omnia scripta esse ab Apostolis quae sunt omnibus necessaria & quae ipsi palam omnibus vulgo praedicanetunt. Idem. Clarissima testimonia Scripturae anteponenda sunt omnibus conciliorum 〈◊〉. ) giveth authority to the Church, for the Church is founded upon the word of God, Eph. 2.20. and the word of God is the immortal seed which produceth and giveth being to the Church b Gregor. Valenc. tom. 3. q. 1. disp. 1. punct. 7. pa. 194. Aug. li. d. pastor. c. 13. & Ep. 48. & Epist. 166. & d. unit. Ecclesiae c. 3. & 4 & 16. 〈◊〉. Imperf. Math. 〈◊〉. 49. Qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae sit vera Ecclesia, unde cognoscat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per Scripturas. Iren. li. 3. c. 11. 〈◊〉. sum. li. 3. tr. 3. ca 3. Si queritur quare credis hoc vel illud, non est 〈◊〉 unica responsio, scilicet, quia ita docet prima veritas. Fides enim soli primae veritati nititur, nec 〈◊〉 medium ad probandum aliquem articulum. 〈◊〉. d. unit. Eccles. c. 16. Remotis ergo omnibus talibus, Ecclesiam suam demonstrent si possunt, non in sermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum, non in Concilijs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, non in literis 〈◊〉 disputatorum, non in signis & prodigijs fallacibus, quia 〈◊〉 contrà ista verbo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 redditi 〈◊〉, said in praescripto legis, in Prophetarum praedictis, in Psalmorum cantibus, in ipsius pastoris vocibus, in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉, hoc est in omnibus Canonicis 〈◊〉 librorum 〈◊〉. Ibid. 〈◊〉 utrum ipsi: Ecclesiam reneant, non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, cationicis libris ostendant, quià nec nos proptereà dicimus nobis credere oportere quòd in Ecclesia Christi sumus, quià ipsam quam tenemus commendavit Milevitanus Optatus, vel Mediolanensis 〈◊〉 vel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nostrae communionis Episcopi, aut quià 〈◊〉 Collegarum concilijs, ipsa praedicata est, aut quià per totum 〈◊〉 in locis sanctis quae frequentat nostra communio tanta mirabilia vel exauditionum vel sanitatum fiunt. , Luc. 8.11. ja. 1.18. itself upon the Apostles 〈◊〉 word and Doctrine, which is principally contained in the Scripture. 〈◊〉. Into this principle St. Augustine resolved his faith against the 〈◊〉 (who pretended the Scriptures were corrupted) confuting them by Tradition of the Church, affirming that he would not believe the Gospel, did not the authority of the Catholic Church induce him, assigning this as the last stay of his resolution in this point: for though he believed the Gospel to 〈◊〉 sooner aignely certain and true, upon the authority of God 〈◊〉 it, and that it was revealed of God, upon the authority of the Apostles who as sacred preached it: yet that this Gospel (as we have it) came incorrupt from the Apostles, he could have no stronger or more excellent 〈◊〉, than the testimony of the present Church descended by continued succession of Bishops from the Apostles, neither can we imagine any higher, except we fly to particular and to private revelation, which is absurd. ANSWER. St. Augustine's words, C. Epist. Manichei. c. 4. a Si invenires aliquem qui Euangelio nondum credit quid 〈◊〉 dicenti tibi non credo: ego vero non crederem nisi me 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commoveret 〈◊〉. do not prove, that after he was fully converted, he resolved his faith finally and principally into the authority of the Church, succeeding the Apostles. First, St. Augustine resolved his faith finally and principally, into that which he knew to be infallible and totally divine. But he was not so persuaded of the Church, succeeding the Apostles, because he thought it possible for the principal members of that Church to 〈◊〉, and be deceived b 〈◊〉. c. Crescon. l. 2. c. 21. Ecclesiastici judices sicut homines 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉. , and he prefers the authority of the Scriptures, before the judgement of Counsels and Fathers c etc. Et per concilia licere emendari, etc. , (in which some of our adversary's place the 〈◊〉 of Ecclesiastical infallibility.) Moreover it appeareth by Saint Augustine in the second chapter of this Book, that he did not make the authority of the Church, the highest ground of resolution of his faith: for he saith that manifest verity is to be preferred before all other things, whereby he was held in the Catholic Church a Aug. c. Ep. Manich. c. 4. Multa sunt alia, quae in eius graemio me justissime teneant. Tenet consensio populorum, atque gentium 〈◊〉 authoritas, miraculis inchoata, charitate aucta vetustate firmata, etc. apud vos vero nihil est horum, etc. sola personat veritatis pollicitatio. Quae quidem si tàm manifesta monstratur ut in dubium venire non possit preponenda est 〈◊〉 illis rebus quibus in Catholica teneor. : but that whose authority must be preferred before all other things, is the highest ground of faith's resolution. Secondly, because St. Augustine's meaning in this place is obscure and dubious, our adversaries cannot conclude certainly from hence. 1. Some Schoolmen hold that he speaketh of acquisite or Historical Faith, which is an introduction to b Scot 3. d. 23. q. 1. Certum est quod in nobis est fides 〈◊〉 credebilium acquifita: quod patet per Aug. c. fundament. Manich, qui dicit, quod non crederet Euang. nisi crederet Ecclesiae Catholicae approbanti & authorizanti libros illos, etc. Gabr. 3. d. 23. q. 2. ar. 2. c. 1. infused faith, and then it is inconsequent to argue, that because Saint Augustine at his first conversion, and being a Novice in Faith, did ground his Historical faith upon the authority of the Church, therefore the authority of the Church is universally, and after men are converted, the highest ground of resolution. Most men are at first induced by external motives, to give credit to the Scriptures, as the people of Samaria c Canus loc. l. 2. c. 8. Negotium Augustino erat cum Manichaeis, qui absque controversia, suo 〈◊〉 Euangelio credi volebant & Manich. fidem adstruere. Rogat 〈◊〉 August. ecquid 〈◊〉 sint si in hominem incidant qui non Euangelio quidem credat, quove genere persuasionis sint eum in 〈◊〉 sententiam adducturi, certe se affirmat non aliter potuisse adduci ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quam Ecclesiae authoritate victum. Non itaque docet fundatam efse Euangelij fidem in Ecclesiae authoritate, verum simpliciter 〈◊〉 efse certam viam qua Infideles sive Novitij, in fide ad Sacros Libros 〈◊〉, nisi Catholicae Ecclesiae unum eundemque consensum. pa. 35. Al. Hal. 3. q. 78. memb. 2. Ratio & fides quae est ex ratione, se 〈◊〉 ad fidem gratuitam, sicut preambula dispositio ad formam. Disponit enim animam ad receptionem luminis, quo assentit primae veritati propter se, sed per modum naturae non gratiae, & dicitur ipsum in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seta 〈◊〉 & tunc ratio 〈◊〉 humana, quando ei non innititur fides introducta. were by the testimony of the woman, to believe that Christ was a Prophet, joh. 4.42. Altisiodor. summa in prolog. & li. 3. tr. 3.9.4. But as these people afterwards believed, because of Christ's own words, so they which by the Church's authority are first persuaded to hear and read the doctrine of the Scriptures, afterwards by the light of grace do perceive the divine Majesty, wisdom, efficacy, and verity of the said doctrine, and resolve their faith into the divine authority of the holy Ghost, manifesting himself in the Scripture, or doctrine of the Scripture. Secondly, other learned Papists hold that St. Augustine, in the place objected, by the authority of the Church, understood the Church wherein the Apostles themselves governed, and of which they were parts; d 〈◊〉. dial. p. 1. l. 1. c. 4. Intelligitur solum. d. Ecclesia quae 〈◊〉 tempore 〈◊〉. Gabr. lect. 〈◊〉. can. missae D. 〈◊〉. in sent. l. 1. q. 1. ar. 3. fol. 50. & quest. vesper utrum Petri Ecclesia fol. 278. & 294. Can. 〈◊〉. Colon. p. 69. Dried. d. 〈◊〉. Eccl. l. 4. c. 4. fol. 239. Th. Wald. to 1. l. 2. c. 21. Durand. 3. d. 24.4.1. 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. vit. lect. 2. Coral. 7. Et hic apperitur 〈◊〉 intelligendi 〈◊〉 Aug. Euangelio non 〈◊〉 nisi me authoritas Ecclesiae compulisset. 〈◊〉 enim 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro congregatione fidelium, 〈◊〉 qui Christum audierunt, 〈◊〉 & ejus testes fuerunt. and then no marvel if he resolved his faith into the authority of the Church, because in this notion the Church comprehends the College of the Apostles, whose testimony concerning the Scripture was altogether Divine. And although St. Augustine conjoineth the authority of the latter Church with the former, wherein were the Apostles, yet he did not equally, and with the same manner of believing ground his faith upon both: for when a Preacher delivereth Apostolical doctrine, we believe both the Preacher and the Doctrine, and we could not have known the doctrine, but by the Preacher; yet we resolve not our faith, finally and principally into the authority of the Preacher, a Turrian. 22. disp. 2. dub. 4. Non solum inter Gentiles, sed etiam inter Christianos, antequam quis adhibeat fidem humanam, testimonio Ecclesiae, fidem adhibit Concionatori, vel parocho, etc. but into the divine verity itself preached by him. Every thing by which we are moved to believe, and without whose authority we should not have believed, is not the principal object whereunto divine faith is finally resolved, as appeareth by miracles, preaching, instruction of Parents, etc. Jesuit. Upon the former place of Saint Augustine, the jesuit inferreth: That because we have no stronger or more excellent proof than the testimony of the present Churcb descended by continual succession of Bishops from the Apostles, to confirm that the Gospel, as we have it, came incorrupt from the Apostles, therefore Saint Augustine resolved his faith, that it was Apostolical, finally and principally into the authority of the present Church. ANSWER. Saint Augustine delivers not the former, and therefore the jesuit cannot infer the latter: we have indeed no stronger or more excellent moral proof b Occbam. dial. part. 3. tr. 1. l. 3. c. 23. 〈◊〉 possibilis & sufficiens, quamuis non sit infallibilis. , than the perpetual testimony of the Church succeeding the Apostles: but we have a stronger and more excellent divine proof, to wit, the Prophecy of Christ and his Apostles, concerning the perpetual preservation of the Gospel unto the end of the world: also that the Aposcolical Scriptures were once incorrupt, is manifest c August. d. utilit. cred. c. 3. Voluit nescio quos corruptores 〈◊〉 librorum etc. Aug. d. 〈◊〉. cred. c. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cóuinci potest 〈◊〉 Scripturas esse falsatas, etc. , because they were given by divine inspiration. And it is apparent that they were not afterwards corrupted, because no authority or sufficient Argument can be produced to procue them in whole, or in part, to have been corrupted d Aug. Epist. 48. Noque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 integritas atque notitia literarum unius quamlibet illustris Episcopi custodiri quema 〈◊〉 Scriptura Canonica 〈◊〉 linguarum 〈◊〉 & ordine & successione celebranonis Ecclesiastica custoditur, etc. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. l. 3.10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. . Now that which being once known by divine testimony to have been incorrupt, cannot be proved afterwards to have been corrupted, doth by divine testimony appear to be incorrupt, because the first divine testimony standeth still in force. The Text of the Gospel was once known by divine testimony to have been incorrupt, and it cannot be proved to have been afterwards corrupted, Ergo, It doth still appear by divine testimony that the Text of the Gospel is incorrupt, and the resolution of Faith finally and principally resteth upon that divine testimony, and not upon the 〈◊〉 of the present Church. Lastly, the harmony & coherence of the Gospel, both with the Scriptures of the old Testament, Lu. 24.27. Act. 28.23. and of the several parts of the Gospel among themselves a Scot prol. 1. Sent. artic. 4. & ib. Damian Giner. pa. 9 Secunda via etc. joh. ab Incarnatione 1. Sen. pro. q. 2. Lect. 3. pag. 20. de secundo etc. Bellar. d. ver. Dei li. 1. ca 2. Read his words before pag. 27. do manifest that the text of the new Testament is incorrupt. For if the same were corrupted in any part, corruption of words would produce alteration and difference of matter: but we find at this day a perfect harmony of all the parts of the Gospel among themselves, and a perfect agreement of the same with the Scriptures of the old Testament: And from the same being an inward Argument, we may collect, that the text of the Gospel is at this day incorrupt. Now having so many Arguments, besides the authority of the present Church, to prove the integrity of the text of the Gospel, we do not fly, neither is it necessary to fly to private Spirit, or particular Revelation for assurance: and that which our Adversary's object against us, saying, that we resolve our Faith and Religion into the private Spirit, is a foolish calumniation, for we resolve our Faith into the authority of God's outward word (expounded unto us by such helps and means, as both the Scripture itself, and the ancient Church require) as into the divine motive, and object of belief: and we affirm that his grace and holy Spirit, working by the outward means, enableth, draweth, and persuadeth the conscience to assent, john 6.45. & 12.37, 38.1. Cor. 2.12. etc. 12.3. & 2. Cor. 3.5. Act. 16.14. 1. john 2.20.27. Esay 50.5. And herein we fly to no private Spirit or Revelation, but maintain the ordinary assistance of divine grace, according to the doctrine of the holy Scripture, and of S. Augustine b Aug. Ep. 〈◊〉. tr. 2. Quicquid illarum Scripturarum est sonat Christum, sed si aures inveniat. Et apperuit eis sensum ut intelligerint Scripturas, etc. Ibid. tr. 3. Interior Magister est qui docet, etc. pa. 741. etc. ep. Manich. c. 14. & ep. 107. & sup. Psal. 126. & d. praedest. Sanct. c. 8. & epist. 121. in fine. , and the common Tenet of the Schoolmen themselves c Canus loc. li. 2. ca 8. 〈◊〉 22. q. 1. art. 1. concl. 4. pa. 12. Quantum ad formalem rationem credendi pendet nostra fides immediate a spirito Sancto illuminante mentes nostras. 〈◊〉. Tena. Com. Heb. 11. diff. 1. sect. 5. n. 26. In genere causae efficientis reducitur assensus nostrae fidei in nostrum intellectum, ut instrumentum vitale: In 〈◊〉 verò internum, & habituale fidei ut in causam propriam & proximam, elevantem intellectum nostrum ad 〈◊〉 assensum. 〈◊〉 d. ver. relig. li. 1. ca 14. pag. 55. Gillius d. sacra Doctr. & essent. Dei & li. 〈◊〉. tract. 2. ca 2. n. 4. 〈◊〉. Tripl. ca 16. Ipsa divini Spiritus in cord persuasio principalis causa & 〈◊〉 resolutio fidei 〈◊〉 est. 〈◊〉. sup. 1. Corinth. ho. 7. Fideles per Spiritum experientiam affecuti, in absconditis virturem 〈◊〉. Aquin. 22. q. 6. at. 1. Capreol. 3. d. 24. q. vnic. pa. 177. Arragon. 22. q. 1. ar. 1. conclus. 6. (dicit) fideles credere res seu misteria fidei, quià Deus illa revelavit. Quod autém Deus illa 〈◊〉, immediatè credere, quià interins 〈◊〉 per specialem 〈◊〉, iuxtà illud: Qui credit in filium Dei habet restimonium Dei in se. Rich. 〈◊〉. 2. dict. 23. q. 2. 〈◊〉. 1. Fides non est ex auditu solo, sed principalitèr per 〈◊〉 interiorem. . JESVITS 2. Argument. Secondly, I 〈◊〉 that common unlearned people (the greatest part of Christianity) are persuaded about all substantial points of Faith, by Tradition, not by Scripture Common unlearned people have true Christian Faith in all points necessary and snfficient unto Salvation, but they have not Faith of all these main and substantial points grounded on Scripture, for they can neither understand nor read any Scripture, but translated into vulgar languages; and so if they believe upon Scripture, they believe upon Scripture translated into their mother tongue: but before that they can know that the Scriptures are truly translated even in all substantial points, that so they may build of it, they must first know what are the main and substantial points, and firmly believe them, so that they would not believe the Scripture translated against them; for if they knew them not before, how can they know that Scriptures, in places that concern them, are truly translated: if they do not before hand firmly believe them, why should they be ready to allow translations that agree with them, and to reject the translations which differ from them? Ergo, Originally, and before they know any Scripture, they have Faith grounded on the Tradition of their ancestors, by the light whereof they are able to judge of the truth of Translations about such substantial points as they firmly believe by Tradition. ANSWER. The question which the jesuit undertaketh to prove in his four Arguments, is, that our resolution of Faith stayeth finally upon the perpetual Tradition of the Church, and not upon the Scripture. His second argument to prove this, is taken from the manner of vulgar and illiterate people in resolving their Faith: For if these, being the greater part of Christianity, do ground their Creed (touching all points of doctrine necessary to Salvation) upon Tradition of their ancestors, andif they have true Faith before they know and understand the Scripture, than Christian Faith (at leastwise among the greater part of Christians) is resolved finally into the Tradition of ancestors, and not of the Scriptures. And he proveth that these vulgar people have Faith touching all points necessary to Salvation, before they know the Scriptures, because it is impossible for them to read or understand Scripture until it be translated into their mother tongue: and they are not able to judge of translations, or know them to be true, unless they first believe the principal points of Christian Faith, and by comparing translations of Scripture with the said doctrines of Faith formerly by them believed, be enabled to judge of the Truth of Translations. This Paralogism hath certain ambiguous or equivocal terms which must be distinguished, and then I will apply my answer. First, the term of Scripture may be taken for the letter and text of the Scripture, together with the names of the several Books, Authors, and Sections: and secondly it may signify the doctrine of the Scripture, without mention of the particular Books, john 7.38. Rom. 1, 2, 3, 4. Secondly, Resolution of Faith, is either distinct and explicit a Aquinas 3. d. 25. q. 2. 〈◊〉. 3. d. 25. q. 3. Gabr. 3. d. 25. q. unit. Notab. 2. Occam Dial. part. 2. tract. 1. c. 10. Bannes, Lorca, Turrian Malder. 22. q. 2. art. 5. Much. Medina d. recta in Deum fid. li. 4. c. 4. & ca 10. , wherein believers are able to declare the several reasons of their Faith, and to proceed from one reason of believing to another, until they ascend by degrees to the principal ground: or else Implicit and Virtual b joh. d. Colon. Ex Scoto. Cognoscere confuse, est cognoscere secundum quod exprimitur per nomen, vel in suo universali tantùm. Cognoscere distinctè, est cognoscete secundum quod exprimitur per definitionem, vel per propria sua principia. , wherein believers cannot proceed distinct lie, and with explication of the several reasons and grounds of Faith, but resting themselves upon one prime and radical ground, are ready, for the authority of the same, to believe all other particular reasons and verities of Faith, when they are declared unto them. Thirdly, Tradition may signify either doctrine of Faith, and good manners, not contained or written in holy Scripture, expressly or inuoluedly; or else the same doctrine which is found in holy Scripture, delivered by Ancestors or Teachers by word of mouth. These distinctions premised, I answer the objection, 1. Granting that some vulgar people, and novices in Faith c Ruffin. Eccles. Hist. 1. li. c. 9 etc. 10. Christum esse Deum Dej summi filium qui salutem hanc contulerit, docet, eumquè quem authorem suae sciret esse incollumitatis & vitae invocandum docet etc. Adest captiva edocet Deum Christum supplicandi ritum venerandiquè modum etc. 〈◊〉. li. 3. c. 4. , may attain belief concerning such verities of Christian Doctrine as are absolutely necessary to Salvation, by the Tradition of their Ancestors and Teachers, without distinct and explicit resolving their Faith into the Text of holy Scripture, or the particular Books or Sections thereof. But withal I deny, that they can have saving Faith, without resolving the same into the doctrine of the Scriptures a Card. Camerac. Vesper. recommend. s. Script. Audite quaeso qualitèr super sacrae Scripturae fundamentum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domus addificatur & insh vitur omnis Ecclesiae caetus, omnis status, omnis gradus, omnis sexus. . For example, It is an Article of Faith necessary to be believed by all Christians of riper years, that jesus Christ is the 〈◊〉 of the World, and the same Article is revealed and taught in many Texts of holy Scripture. If a simple rural person believe this Article taught him by his parents and other teachers, he believeth the Doctrine of the Scripture, and virtually grounds his Faith upon the Scripture, although he know not the Books of the Scripture, or the particular sentences contained in the same. A man which drinketh water flowing from a fountain, or seeth day light, although he have no distinct knowledge of the fountain, or sight of the Sun, which is the cause of light, yet he receiveth water mediately from the fountain itself, and his light principally from the Sun; so likewise rude and illiterate Christians, reap the benefit and fruit of the Scriptures, and virtually ground their Faith upon them, although they be not able distinctly to look into them, or to resolve their Faith into the several parts and testimonies contained in them b Gregor. 〈◊〉. li. 30. ca 12. jumenta escam accipiunt dum sacrae Scripturae pabulo, mentes dudum brutae satiuntur. August. sup. Psal. 8. Ex ore infantium & lactantium perfecisti laudem, ut a fide Scripturarum inciperent, qui cupiunt ad tuae Magnificentiae notitiam pervenire. . OBJECTION. Vulgar andilliterate persons do not know or understand the Scriptures, neither can they be certain by their own knowledge, that the same are truly translated in such points as the youare bound to believe, therefore they cannot ground their Faith finally and last upon the Scriptures. ANSWER. 1. If this Objection were good, vulgar people could not ground their divine Faith upon Tradition, because they have not distinct knowledge of Tradition, or of the quality or derivation thereof. Therefore I distinguish of Knowledge out of Bonaventure, c 〈◊〉. 3. d. 25. q. 3. Cognitio potest scire aliquid in universali, & ita 〈◊〉 quòd non sciat in particulari & ità scire uno modo, & ignorare alio modo. 〈◊〉 potest esse aliquid duplicitur 〈◊〉 se, vel in alio. Alexander Hall 3. q. 82. m. 4. ar. 〈◊〉 & 2. that the same is two fold, to wit, either confused and general, or distinct and special, and a thing may be known two ways, either in itself, or in another. If vulgar and illiterate people could know and understand the Scriptures, neither confusedly, nor distinctly, neither in themselves, nor in any other thing, than it were impossible that they should resolve their Faith into them: but if they may know them by teaching of others, and understand the Doctrine of the Scriptures to be divine by the light of heavenly verity resplendent in the same a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. tom. 3. sup. Thom. dip. 1. punct. 7. pag. 320. 〈◊〉 cognitio illa sacris expressa literis quam Deus 〈◊〉 Scriptoribus indidit, quamque per illos voluit caeteris scripto patefieri, velut sonorú quoddam verbum Dei est, quo is, videlicet, conceptum aeternae mentis suae, notitiamque verissimam, hominibus eloquitur atque manifestat. , and by the inward testimony of the holy Spirit coworking with that Doctrine b Chrys. sup. 1. Cor. hom. 7. Fideles per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 assecuti, in absconditis vittutem intuentur. Arrag. 2. 2. q. 1. at. 1. c. 6. Fideles credunt res seu misteria fidei, quià Deus illa revelavit. Quod autèm Deus illa revelaverit, immediate credunt, quià interius moventur per specialem instinctú, iuxta illud: Qui credit in filium Dei habet testimonium Dei in se, 2. joh. 5.10. , than it is possible for them to resolve their Faith into the Scripture, because they which actually resolve their Faith into the Doctrine of the Scripture, do virtually and mediately resolve the same into the very Scripture, even as he that actually believeth the king's proclamation, doth virtually believe the king's authority, although he know the king or his authority confusedly, and in general only. The Text of holy Scripture, and the distinct sayings and sentences thereof, are the principal and final external ground, whereupon the whole body of the Church must ground their Faith c Maclin. in 1. part. Tho. q. 1. ar. 9 Sacra Scriptura omnibus hominibus communitèr proponitur. Aquin. 1. q. 1. artic. 9 Salmeron. tom. 1. prolog. 1. pag. 3. Merito igitur unica nobis Scriptura commendata est, ad quam ab Ecclesia Catholica atquè Orthodoxa intellecta tanquam ad lapidem Lydium probandi sunt Spiritus doctrinaequè universae, non secus atquè conclusiones per sua principia & actiones per proprium finem dignoscuntur. . But as there is a diversity of the members of the Church, 1. Cor. 12.20. so likewise there is a difference between them in the manner of resolving Faith: for the stronger and firmer members are able to resolve their Faith distinctly into Scripture, but the weaker members whose Faith (as Bonaventure speaketh) is diminuta d Li. 3. d. 23. Alex. Hall 3. q. 82. m. 4. art. 1. Ad id de mensura etc. , seeble and imperfect in respect of the distinct apprehension of the object of Faith e Greg. Nyssen vita Mosis. Mons arduus & assensu difficilis, Theologia est, cujus vix multitudo ad radices ascendere potest. Aug. d. Trin. li. 14. ca 1. , are guided by the stronger, as children by a nurse. And these little ones are taught the truth of heavenly Doctrine, 1. By their parents f Euseb. Hist. li. 6. c. 2. A patre attenta cura & cogitation laboratum erat ut sacras literas una combiberet. Fransc. Picus Theorem 23. , or ecclesiastical teachers, and they know the Scriptures to be truly translated, not by their own skill, but by crediting others which are able to judge. But being thus far directed and persuaded by humane means g Bannes' 22. q. 1. ar. 1. dub. 4. Quemad assentimur primis principijs naturalibus ante notitiam explicitam terminorum, assensu quodam confuso, posteà verò habita 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 assentimur 〈◊〉: Ita antequàm infundatur nobis fides assentimur confusè articulis fidei per sidem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cis qui res sidei nobis proponunt credendas, posteà verò infundente Deo 〈◊〉 jam 〈◊〉 articulis distinctè & immediatè per ipsam sidem quae illos nobis ostendir. , than the light of God's word itself, by the power of Grace, persuadeth them as a divine cause, to yield full assent to all such verities as are necessary to be believed by them to salvation. Jesuit. And this is that which Protestants must mean (if they have any true meaning) when they say that the common people knew Scriptures to be truly translated by the light of the Doctrine shining in true Translations, to wit, by the light of Doctrine received by Tradition of Ancestors, and thereupon so firmly believe, as they will acknowledge Scriptures to be truly translated so far, and no farther than they perceive them consonant with the Faith delivered unto them, so that their last and final resolution, for substantial points, is not into Scripture truly translated into their vulgar tongue, but into Tradition, by the light whereof they discern that their Translations are true, more or less, according to the measure of knowledge they have by Tradition. ANSWER. The sum of the former objection is, Unlearned people are not able without the help and instruction of others to resolve their Faith into the Scriptures. Therefore the Scripture is not the final and greatest stay and ground of Faith. The Argument is denied: for as in Arts and Sciences, an unskilful person cannot resolve his knowledge into the first principles, until he be taught the meaning of words and the sense of rules and precepts; but when he is taught, and understandeth these, than he maketh resolution into the very first principles themselves: So likewise in believing, the Object of Faith must be taught, the sense of the words, and matter declared, the grounds and reasons of credibility delivered, and then the believer principally and immediately, settles the resolution of his Faith not upon these helps and instruments which are only dispofitive and adiwant causes a Gillius, d. sacra Doctr. & d. Deo li. 1. Tract. 2. c. 2. Instrumentum quoddam applicans verum motiwm authoritatis Divinae. , but upon the first principles themselves expressly or derivatively contained in holy Scripture. And whereas Dr. joh. Wh. is produced, affirming in the behalf of all Protestants, that common people know Scriptures to be truly translated by the light of the Doctrine shining in true Translations. First Dr. Wh. in the place assigned, speaketh not in particular of common people, but of the true Church b Way to the Church, pa. 24. , in which are found many persons skilful and learned. h Lactantius d. vero cultu li. 6. cap. 21. Num igitur Deus & mentis & vocis & mentis 〈◊〉 disertè loqui non potest etc. Orig. Hom. 2. in jerem. Cedrens. in Ptolomeo Philadelpho. Rex pulchritudinem sacrae Scripturae videns etc. Secondly, he delivereth other means (besides the light of Doctrine) whereby the Church may know that Translations are true c Ib. pag. 25. , to wit, knowledge of Tongues, rules of Art, ministry of the Word, to which I add analogy of Faith, the testimony of the 〈◊〉 Church, and best learned in all ages. All these are helps and instruments of right Translations, and when the Scriptures are translated, they manifest their Author and sacred authority to such as in a right manner are conversant in hearing or reading them. And this is not only the Tenet of Protestants, but, besides the ancient Fathers, of moderate Papists themselves a Serran. Apar. fid. pag. 55. Lux sua se vi ipsam prodit, & in oculis perspicacibus est efficax, lucernam qui praefert lucem quidem profert, at ipse non lucet, Lucis proprium est lucere, homunis lucem proffer, Ita Scripture lux per se lucet, hominum ministerio hominibus efficax etc. Et pa. 51. Ea certè vis est Scripturae à Deo inspiratae ut Dei Maiestas in ea eluceat. . There is (sayeth one of them) such power in Scripture inspired of God, that the majesty of God shineth in it. And this speech is the same in effect with that of Constantine the great, reported by Theodoret, b Grecè cap. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hist. li. 1. ca 24. Obseruans' fidem divinam, adipiscor lumen veritatis, sequens lumen veritatis, agnosco divinam fidem, Marking the divine Faith, I obtain the light of Truth, and following the light of Truth, I acknowledge divine Faith, Quod est manifestatiwm alterius, simul potest manifestare seipsum, sicut lux quo actu prodit colores prodit seipsam, & cum ego quicquam loquor, eadem locutione, manifesto rem & loguelam (saith Petrus de Lorca, 22. q. 1. ar. 1. disp. 4. n. 8.) That which is a manifestator of another thing, may together manifest itself, as appeareth inlight which doth manifest itself by the same act, whereby it showeth colours: and by speech, for when I speak, by one and the same speech, I manifest the thing spoken, and mine own speaking. The same is affirmed by Peresius c Peres. Ajala d. Trad. part. 2. pag. 11. , Canus d Canus loc. li. 2. ca 8. , Fra. Petigianus e Fra. Petig. 3. d. 23. pag. 17. Fides praestat assensum revelationi, ut 〈◊〉, non per aliam revelationem sed per seipsam. , and it is so far from being unlikely that the holy Scripture, when it is received, doth manifest itself, and his author, that it is most absurd to imagine the contrary: for the Scripture is a divine light, Psal. 119.105.2. Pet. 1.19.2. Cor. 4. 6. And it is the voice and speech of God f Greg. li. 4. Epist. 40. Scripturam sacram Epistolam quandam esse dicimus omnipotentis Dei ad creaturam suam. 〈◊〉. 2. Thes. hom. 3. Aug. in Psal. 90. De illa civitate unde peregrinamur literae nobis venerunt, ipsae sunt Scripturae. , Luc. 1. 71. And the jesuit cannot persuade any reasonable man to think that God almighty who bestowed tongues and voices upon men, with ability so to express themselves, that others might understand their voice and know them by it, should speak himself in the Scripture so darkly and secretly, that people, when they are elevated by grace, cannot discern the same to be his word or voice. We know other creatures to be God's work by footsteps g Aug. d. Trin. li. 6. c. 10. Alex. Hall. 3. q. 30. m. 2. ar. 3. § 2. Aquinas 1. q. 45. ar. 7. of his power, wisdom, and goodness appearing in them. The holy Scripture excelleth all created things in wisdom and perfection, it cannot therefore be destitute of signs and impressions to manifest unto them which are inspired with grace unto believing, that God himself is the author. JESVITS 3. Argument. If the main and substantial points of Christian faith must be firmly known and believed, before we can securely read and truly understand the holy Scriptures: then the main and substantial points of faith are believed, not upon Scripture, but upon Tradition precedently unto Scripture. This is clear, because true faith is not built, but upon Scripture truly understood of man: neither can Scripture until it be truly understood of a man, be to him a ground of assured persuasion: But we cannot understand the Scripture securely, and aright, before we know the substantial Articles of faith, which all are bound expressly to believe: the summary comprehension of which point, is termed, The rule of faith, Tertul. de prescrip. c. 13. ANSWER. The sequel of the Mayor is denied. It followeth not, that although the main and substantial points of faith must be firmly known and believed, before we can securely read and truly understand the holy Scriptures, in the particular texts and sections thereof: therefore the said substantial points are not believed upon Scripture, but upon Tradition unwritten. 〈◊〉 d. Ecclesia pa. 220. Fides in suo exordio adhuc languida, multis eget adminiculis donec astipuletur & submittat se Scriptures. At ubi ad maturitaté suam fuerit progressa, amplius haud perindè opus habet illis externis presidijs sed tum veritaté ex ipsamet Scriptura liquidius aspicit, internis quae in ea latent argumentis, omni humano modo sublimiorib' ducta atque permota, atq, sic fides illa 〈◊〉 confirmata suo proprio nititur sundaméto nec fulcitur ampli' solis externis adminiculis. The reason of the inconsequence is, for that the main and substantial points of faith, may be known and believed by the doctrine of the Scripture, touching the said points delivered to people, by those which have faithfully collected the same into a Summarie, out of the particular and distinct sentences of the holy Scriptures. And they that believe this doctrine of the Scriptures, may attain the knowledge and faith of substantial points of Christianity, before themselves can read and understand the said Books: yet they resolve not their faith into unwritten Tradition (according to the Popish meaning, where by unwritten Tradition is understood doctrine of faith, neither expressly nor inuoluedly contained in holy Scripture) but into the doctrine of the Scripture, collected and delivered unto them by others, and virtually and immediately into the holy Scripture itself (as I have formerly showed, in answer to the second Argument.) That which followeth in the objection touching the rule of faith, proveth not that Christian belief is resolved lastly and finally into unwritten Tradition: because the rule of faith, is not such unwritten Tradition, as is neither expressly, nor by consequent contained in Scripture: but a Summarie of the principal Articles of Christian 〈◊〉 contained in the Apostles Creed; and which may be gathered out of the plain texts and sentences of holy Scripture a Chrys. in symb. Hom. 1. 〈◊〉. d. Trinit. c. 1. ca 9 ar. 9 Aug. d. Temp. Ser. 119. Chrysolog. Serm. 61. In symb. Leo. Serm. 11. d. passione Dom. Alex. Hal. 3. q. 82. m. 5. ar. 2. Creatorem caeli & terrae: à capite Scripturae accipit illud, etc. Qui conceptus est de spiritu sancto: sumitur iste articulus de Math. 1. Inuenta est habens in utero, etc. Cassian. d. Incarnate. li. 6. c. 3. Quicquid per diversum divinorum voluminum corpus, immensa 〈◊〉 copia, totum in symboli colligitur brevitate perfecta. Paschas. d. spirit sancto prefat. , and therefore all they which resolve their faith into the said rule, refolue the same also into the plain doctrine of the Scripture. And that the rule of faith is such, it appeareth. First, by the branches and Articles of that rule, which are; I believe in God, the Father Almighty, etc. And in jesus Christ, his only Son our Lord, etc. With the rest of the Articles of the Apostles Creed, read 1. Cor. 15.1, 2, 3.1. Tim. 3.16. And Tertull. in the place alleged by the jesuit b Tertul. prescript. c. 13. Regula est autem fidei, ut iam quid credamus profiteamur. Illa scilicet, qua creditur, unum omninò deum effe, nec alium preter mundi crearorem, qui universa de nihilo produxerit per verbum suum, primò omnium emissum. Id verbum filium eius appellatum, in nomine Dei varie visum Patriarchis, in Prophetis semper auditum, postremò delatum ex spiritu Dei Patris, & virtute in Virginem Mariam, carnem factum in utero eius, & ex ea natum hominem, & esse jesum Christum, exindè predicasse novam legem, & novam promissionem regni caelorum, virtutes fecisse, fixum cruci, tertia die refurexisse: in caelos ereptum sedere, ad dexteram Patris, misisse vicariam vim spiritus Sancti, qui credentes agate, venturum cum claritate, ad sumendos sanctos, in vitae aeternae & promissorum caelestium fructum, & ad prophanos iudicandos igni aeterno, facta utriusque partis resuscitatione, cum carnis resurrectione. 〈◊〉 regula à Christo instituta, etc. Iren. lib. 1. c. 3. August. Enchyr. cap. 56. , and in his Book d. vel. virg. c Tertul. d. vel. 〈◊〉. c. 1. Regula quidem fidei, una omninò est, sola immobilis & irreformabilis, credendi seilicet in unum Deum omnipotentem mundi creatorem, & filium eius jesum Christum, natum ex Virgin Maria, crucifixum sub Pontio Pilato, terto die resuscitatum, à mortuis receptum in caelis, sedentem nunc ad dexteram Patris, 〈◊〉 iudicare vivos & mortuos, per carnis etiam Refurrectionem. rehearsing the ancient rule of faith, doth not mention any one Article, which is not expressly or by derivation contained in holy Scripture. Secondly, the rule of faith extendeth not itself beyond the bounds of the Gospel, Gallath. 1.8. Tertul. de prescript. c. 6. d Ibid. cap. 6. Nobis curiositate opus non est post jesum Christum: nec inquifitione post Euangelium, cum credimus nihil desideramus 〈◊〉 credere. Hoc enim prius credimus, non esse quod ultra credere debeamus. but all the main and substantial Articles of faith necessary to be believed generally to salvation, are contained in the plain places of evangelical Scripture; as both 〈◊〉. Augustine e August. d. doctrina Christ. lib. 2. cap. 9 In eyes quae 〈◊〉 in Scriptura posita sunt, Inueniuntur illa omnia, quae continent fidem moresque vivendi, spem scz. atque charitatem. and learned Papists themselves affirm f Bellarm. d. 〈◊〉 Dei li. 4. c. 11. Scripta sunt ab Apostolis ea omnia quae absolute necessaria sunt ad salutem omnium 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Ecclesia dogm. lib. 2. cap. 3. pag. 60. Gerson. d. sensu sacr. Scrip. propos. 9 : wherefore if the rule of faith be only a summary comprehension of the main and substantial Articles of Christianity, and all these Articles are contained in holy Scripture; than it followeth, that the rule of faith, is not unwritten Tradition alone (according to the Popish meaning) but a Summarie of beleese contained in the plainer sentences of holy Scripture, either expressly, or by deduction. 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, li. 3. d. doct. Christ. c. 2. saith, a Consulat regulam fidei, quam de Scripturarum planioribus locis, & Ecclèsiae authoritate percepit. Let a man seek the rule of faith, which he hath learned of 〈◊〉 places of Scripture, and of the authority of the Church: now the plainer places of Scripture, are a part of Scripture; and the authority of the Church exceedeth not the bounds of the Scripture, according to St. Hierom. b Ecclesia Christi quae 〈◊〉 bene & in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ecclesias possidens, spirit' veritate 〈◊〉 est, & habet vibes legis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 & Apostolorun: Non est egessia de finibus suis, id est de Scriptures 〈◊〉, etc. come. Mich. c. 1. And Durand the famous Schooleman, 2. dist. 44. q. 3. n. 9 c Ecclesia licet habet dominationem Dei in terris, illa tamen non excedit limitationem Scripturae. Cusanus Concord. Cathol. li. 2. ca 6. In loco congregationis 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ponebantur, Sacra Euan gelia &c. Secundum testimonium 〈◊〉 decrevit Synodus. Out of the former definition of the rule of faith, it followeth, That because according to our Adversary's doctrine, the belief of Christians touching all main and substantial points of faith, is resolved into the rule of faith: and the said rule, exceedeth not the limits of holy Scripture, being only a summary comprehension of the principal heads of Christian doctrine, collected from the plainer places of Scripture, and propounded by the authority of the Church confined to Scripture, that therefore the final resolution of faith is not made into Tradition unwritten, as the same signifies Doctrine, neither expressly nor inuoluedly contained in holy Scripture, but into the Scripture, or doctrine of the Scripture itself. JESVITS 4. Argument. Those that understand the Scriptures aright, must be such as they were to whom the Apostles writ and delivered the Scriptures, and whose instruction they intended by their writing: But the Apostles, as Dr. Field acknowledgeth, wrote to them they had formerly taught more at large, that were instructed and grounded in all substantial and necessary points of faith, that knew the common necessary observations of Christianity: Ergo, they that read, and presume to iuterpret the Scriptures, without first knowing, and firmly believing by Tradition, at the least all necessary & substantial points of faith, cannot with assurance understand them, but may even in manifest points mightily mistake: for the blessed Apostles writing to Christians, that were before hand fully taught and settled in substantial Christian doctrines and customs, do ordinarily in their writings suppose such things as abundantly known, without declaring them anew, only touching them cursorily by the way, and therefore 〈◊〉, so that the already taught, might well understand their sayings and no other. ANSWER. The question is a Jesuit, To which question I answer, That the last and final resolution thoreof, is not 〈◊〉 Scripture, but into the perpetual Tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 the Apostles. , Whether the last and final resolution of Faith is made into unwritten Tradition, and not into Scripture. The fourth Argument produced by the Adversary, to prove this, is taken from the necessity of unwritten Traditian to expound the Scripture. And the sum of the Argument is, Without a precedent instruction, or teaching by Tradition unwritten, the necessary and substantial points of Faith; we cannot be firmly assured that we have the right sense of the Scripture, as appeareth by the example of the Primitive hearers of the Apostles, who were formerly instructed by them, and had the right Faith taught them more at large: and then being thus informed and prepared, they received the Scripture: and we have no reason to promise unto ourselves more understanding than the Apostles immediate hearers. And the Scriptures without Tradition are obscure, and do only cursorily touch matters formerly taught more at large, Ergo, The last and final resolution of Faith is made into unwritten Tradition, and not into Scripture. In the Antecedent or leading part of this Argument, some things cannot be admitted without distinction, and some parts hereof are false, and the Argument itself is inconsequent. First, they which in our days understand the Scripture aright, must be such as they were to whom the Apostles wrote, and delivered the Scriptures etc. not simply, and in all things (for many things are requisite for the first plantation of Faith, which are not necessary for the future continuance and propagation thereof,) but in such things only as are common and ordinary for all ages. Wherefore they which in our days understand the Scriptures aright, must ordinarily have a previous introduction by the teaching of others, and also there must be in them a mind desirous of Truth b August. d. utitat. credendi c. 6. Planè ita modificata, ut nemo inde haurire non possit, quod sibi satis est, si modo ad 〈◊〉, devotè ac 〈◊〉, ut vera religio docet, accedat. 〈◊〉. in Psalm. 118. serm. 8. Docet Deus & mentes illuminat singulorum & claritatem cognitionis infundit, si tu aperias ostia cordis tui, & 〈◊〉 gratiae recipias claritatem, & quando dubitas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as etc. 〈◊〉. Orth. 〈◊〉. li. 4. ca 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and a resolution and diligence to use the means appointed by God, to learn the same: but that they must be instructed in the same manner as the Apostles hearers were, or learn all the necessary points of Faith before they begin to read the Scriptures without any certain understanding, is affirmed by the Adversary, but not proved. Also many of the Apostles hearers read part of the Scriptures, to wit, the Scriptures of the Old Testament with profit, and some right understanding before they were generally taught all the grounds of the Gospel, for otherwise how could they have examined the Doctrine of the Apostles by the Scriptures? Acts 17.11. And to what purpose did our Saviour command the jews to search the Scriptures, joh. 5.39? a August. Psal. 108. 〈◊〉 jubet, non in superficie pertransire. Chrys. in Gen. hom. 37. August. Epist. 120. Ama Ecclesiasticas legere literas, & non multa invenies quae requiras ex me, sed legendo & ruminando, si etiam purè dominum largitorem bonorum omnium depreceris, omnia quae cognitione digna sunt, aut certè plurima, ipso magisinspirante, quam hominum aliquo 〈◊〉 perdisces. Chrysost. Gen. Hom. 35. Magna diligentia Scripturarum lectioni vacemus ita enim scientiam assequemur. justinian Com. 2. Tim. 3.15. Christus apud johannem ad Scripturarum lectionem provocat judeos, joh. 5.39. And why did the Apostles (preaching both to jews and Gentiles) confirm their Doctrine by the testimony of the Scriptures, Ro. 9.9, 25, 29, 33. & ca 10.11.13.16. 19 & ca 11.2.8.9. & cap. 4.3.6.17. jam. 2.23. 1. Pet. 2.6, if the people to whom they preached could at all have no right understanding of the Scriptures before they were fully and perfectly grounded in the knowledge of all necessary and substantial points of Christian Faith? Secondly, whereas the jesuit addeth for confirmation of his Antecedent, That the Scriptures without Tradition are obscure, and that the Apostles did in them only cursorily touch matters formerly taught: both those assertions, according to the Popish meaning, are false. We acknowledge that many particular Texts and passages of holy Scripture are obscure and hard to be understood b Parcus, Com. Gen. 4. Non negamus Scripturam nihil habere obscuritatis etc. Whitak. d. Ecclesia pa. 220. Sunt quaedam Scripturae, loca de quibus nihil certò statui potest. Beza d. Not. Ecclesiae pa. 137. Philip Morn. d. Ecclesia c. 4. Zanch. d. Script. q. 11. Chemnic. Exam. pa. 57 Fulk. c. Rhem. Pref. fol. 2. Lubbert. d. Script. li. 4. ca 2. Chimid. d. Script. li. 4. c. 4. D. Field of the Church, lib. 4. ca 15. , 2. Pet. 3. 16. But in such points as are necessary for Christians to understand, because they are primary or fundamental, and in such things as are necessary for the declaring and applying that which is fundamental, the same is not so obscure, but it may by diligent reading, and using ordinary means and helps of knowledge, be rightly understood by the learned, and also in a competent measure by the unlearned, after the same is expounded and declared unto them: For if the Scripture were generally and absolutely obscure to the unlearned, then God would not have commanded them to read the same, nor required them to hear the reading thereof, much less would he have said, That by hearing the same, they and their children might learn to fear him, and keep his commandments, Deut. 31.11, 12, 13. And that the holy Scripture is in this manner perspicuous, the ancient Fathers constantly affirm c Orig. c. Celium. li. 7. 〈◊〉 viri scrutando Scripturam, intellectum eius invenire poterunt, licet revera sit multis locis obscura. Ib. Ita divina providentia etc. non solum eruditis Graecis, sed etiàm reliquis condescendit ad idioticum captum auditurae multitudinis, ut consuetis verbis apud eos utendo, imperitos ad auscultandum alliceret, presertìm cum eis facile foret post primam illam introductionem, studiose scrutari sensus reconditiores in sacris 〈◊〉, & pervestigare. Cuivis enim est perspicuum, qui modo has legate, quod qui eas diligentèr examinant, multo retrusiora inveniant, quam quae docentur prima specie. . S. Gregory and S. Bernard d Greg. ad Leandr. praefat. job c. 4. Quasi quidam est flwius planus & altus, in quo agnus ambulet & Elephas 〈◊〉. Idem in ca 4. Cant. Bernard. Serm. paru. 64. compare the holy Scriptures to a River wherein the Elephant may swim, and the Lamb may wade: S. Ireneus e Ireneus li. 2. ca 46. Sunt autem haec quae ante 〈◊〉 nostros occurrunt, & quae cunque apertè & sine ambiguo, ipsis dictionibus posita sunt in Scriptutis. Et ca 47. saith, that some things in Scripture are apertly and clearly without ambiguity manifested to the eyes of our understanding. Saint Augustine a Aug. sup. joh. 〈◊〉. 50. Quaedam in Scriptures tam manifesta sunt ut potius auditoré quam 〈◊〉 desiderent. : Some things are set down so plainly in the Scriptures, that they rather require a hearer than an expositar. And in another place, b Et Id. sup. psal. 88 Et si quaedam sunt testa misterijs, quaedam tamen sic manifesta, ut ex ipsis facilime aperiantur 〈◊〉. Although some things are vailed with mysteries, yet again some things are so manifest, that by the help of them, obscure things may be opened. And again, c In eyes quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt, 〈◊〉 illa omnia quae continent sidem moresque vivendi: spem scilicet atque charitatem. Et d. utilit. 〈◊〉. c. 6. 〈◊〉 est mihi crede in Scriptures illis altum & divinum est: 〈◊〉 omninò veritas & reficiendis instaurandisque animis accomodatissima disciplina: & planè 〈◊〉 modificata, ut nemo inde haurire non possit quod sibi satis est, 〈◊〉 modo ad hauriendum devotè ac pie ut vera religio docet accedat. August. d. unit. Ecclesiae c. 4. Nec in aliqua Scripturarum obscuritate falluntur, sed notissimis & appertissimis earum testimonijs contra dicunt. Et c. 5.6.27. Hoc etiam praedico atque propono ut quaeque aperta & manifesta deligamus: quae si in sanctis Scripturis non invenerentur, nullo modo esset unde apperirentur clausa & illustrarentur obscura. All matters which contain faith, and good manners, are found in those things which are manifestly placed in the Scriptures. Saint Chrysostome: In divine Scriptures all necessary things are plain d Chrys. Hom. 3. Thes. ep. 2. In divinis Scripturis quaecunque necessaria sunt manifesta sunt. . To the like purpose speaketh St. Hierom e 〈◊〉. sup. Esay. c. 19 & in Psal. 86. , Fulgentius f Fulg. Serm. d. confess. , Hugo Victor g Hug. Vict. Miscel. 2. l. 1. Tit. 56. , Theoderit h Theod. in Gen. apud struch. p. 87. , Lactantius i Lact. l. 6. c. 21. , Theophilus Antiochenus k Theopb. Antioch. ad Autolich. l. 2. p. 918. , Clem. Alexandrinus l Clem. Alex. Orat. Adhort. ad Gentes. Cyril. 〈◊〉. jul. l. 7. p. 160. Vt omnibus 〈◊〉 nota paruis & magnis utiliter familiari sermone commendata sunt ita ut nullius captum transcendent. , and the same is the common Tenet of the Primative Fathers. And Gregory Valence confesseth that such places of Scriptures as contain Articles of faith absolutely necessary, are almost all of them plain. The like is affirmed by Aquinas m Th. Aq. part. 1. q. 1. ar. 9 c. , Vasques n Vasq. in Thom. part. 1. disp. 18. c. 4. n. 11. , and Gonzales o Gonzales in 1. p. Thom. at. 9 pag. 61. . The other clause of the jesuits speech, to wit, That the Apostles in their Scripture did only touch matters cursorily, formerly taught, is false. First, this Assertion is repugnant to Saint Augustine, who speaking of the doctrine and deeds of our Saviour, saith, p d. cons. 〈◊〉. l. 1. c. 35. Quicquid ille de suis factis & dictis nos legere voluit, hoc scribendum illis tanquam manibus suis imperavit: Whatsoever Christ would have us read touching his own sayings and works, this he commanded the Evangelists, as it were his own hands, to write. And in another place, q Aug. sup. 〈◊〉 tr. 49. sanctus Euangelista testatur dominum Christum, & dixisse, & fecisse quae scripta non sunt: Electa sunt autem quae scriberentur, quae saluti 〈◊〉 sufficere viderentur. Although Christ spoke and wrought some things which are not written, yet those things which seemed unto him sufficient to the salvation of believers, were selected to be written. Saint Cyrill also affirmeth, r Cyril. Alex. l. 12. joh. c. ultimo. Non omnia quae fecit Dominus conscripta sunt, sed quae scribentes tam ad mores quam ad Dogmata 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficere, ut recta fide, & operibus, & virtute 〈◊〉, ad regnum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that all things which Christ did are not written, but so much as holy writers judged sufficient both for good manners and godly faith, to the end, that we shining in right faith, good works, and virtue, may attain the heavenly Kingdom. By the judgement of these Fathers, the holy Evangelists committed to writing so much of our Saviour's Doctrine and deeds as is sufficient for people to know, that they may be illustrious in faith and virtue; and by the light whereof, they may come to salvation. In these things therefore the Evangelists did not cursorily touch matters, but largely and fully deliver them. Secondly, if the Scriptures contain all things sufficient to salvation, yea, more than is sufficient, than the Apostles in their Scriptures did not cursorily, or by the way only touch matters: But the first is affirmed, both by the Fathers a Basil. praefat in Psa. uberimun quoddam est & commune promptuarium. Chrys. Gen. hom. 3. Non solum thesauro, etc. sed fonti quoque largesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Greg. in Cant. c. 5. 〈◊〉 plenissima, etc. sine minoratione ad plenum de 〈◊〉 imuenitur. , and confessed by some learned Papists. Vincent. 〈◊〉, The Canon of the Scripture is perfect, and in itself sufficient for all matters, yea more than sufficient. Antonius Perez, Pentateuch. fidei. vol. 4. c. 21. b Vincent. Lir. 〈◊〉 Haeres. c. 2. Cum 〈◊〉 perfectus Scripturarun Canon, 〈◊〉 ad omnia satis superque sufficiat, etc. b Perez. p. 24. 〈◊〉 autem comparetur vel 〈◊〉 Scriptura 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae fides docet, tanquam necessaria 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉 plane redundans est atque 〈◊〉 in genere regule, quoniam multa imo pleraque sunt in 〈◊〉, quorum cognitio necessaria non est, etc. . If the Scripture be compared and applied with things which faith teacheth, as necessary to salvation, the same is apparently redundant, and superfluous, according to the nature of a rule: because there be many things, yea most things in the same, the knowledge whereof is unnecessary. But if the Scripture contain many 〈◊〉 superfluous, and more than is needful, it is improbable 〈◊〉 think that it is imperfect in Principals, or delivereth them 〈◊〉 only, or by the way. Thirdly, the variety and multitude of points and doctrines of faith and good manners, and the often repeating and declaring of them in the holy Scriptures, proveth that the Apostles 〈◊〉 fully and perfectly deliver in their writings, the whole 〈◊〉 of Christian faith, and not only cursorily touch them. For all supernatural verity concerning the sacred Deity, Trinity, divine Attributes, and Operations, Creation of the world, etc. is taught in holy Scripture c Aug. d. gen. ad lit l. 12. c. 33. Ab 〈◊〉 divinarum Scripturarun 〈◊〉 solis de hac re 〈◊〉 habenda est, recedere non debemus. Theophilact. Act. 1. Non aliquid 〈◊〉 rerum pretermiserunt, etc. . In like manner, the whole doctrine of faith concerning the Incarnation, Person, and Office of Christ, is revealed unto us by holy Scripture. And for this cause Saint Cyrill d Concil. Eph. 1. apud Binium p. 692. Amb. Ser. 57 Qui vult ad Christi pervenire 〈◊〉 non ingreditur ad illud 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 Scripturae secretum. Cyril. c. julian l. 7. p. 161. Ad sanctas convertimur Scripturas, in quib' veritatis 〈◊〉 fulget, & exacta dogmatum cognitio coaceruata est, & omne genus bonorum documentorum, quibus quis statim plenus virtute, & bonorum operum gloria conspicuus evadat. calleth the Scriptures Solos fontes veritatis, The sole fountains of verity. All things concerning justification, Charity, and good works ( e Damasc. Orthod. fid. l 4. c. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. being merely supernatural) are taught in Scripture. The doctrine of the Law, Gospel, Sacraments, resurrection of the dead, final judgement, etc. is entirely and fully revealed in the holy Scriptures: and the Church, according to Saint Augustine f Aug. sup. ep. joh. tr. 3. Est matter Ecclesia & ubera ejus duo testamenta Scripturarum divinarum, hinc 〈◊〉 lac omnium Sacramentorum temporaliter pro eterna salute nostra. etc. Don. d. Bapt. l. 3. c. 15. , hath only two breasts, wherewith she feedeth her children, to wit, the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. And that he always understandeth by the Old and New Testament, the Scriptures of both, appeareth by his words upon Psal. 22. g Aug. sup. Psal. 22. Fratres sum', quare 〈◊〉 non intestatus mortu' est Pater, fecit testamentum & sic mortu' est, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haereditate mortuorum, quamdiu 〈◊〉 proferatur in publicum, & cum testamentum 〈◊〉 fuerit, 〈◊〉 omnes ut tabulae repetiantur, & 〈◊〉, index attentè audit, advocati silent, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ut legantur verba mortui, etc. Ille sine sensu jacet in monumento, & valent verba ipsius: sedet Christ ' in 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Aperi 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 sumus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 noster, non 〈◊〉 testameto nos dimisit pater. Aperi legamus, etc. Let us open our Father's last Testament, and read it. And 〈◊〉 the great a 〈◊〉. Hist. l. 1. c. 7. Trip. Hist. l. 〈◊〉. c. 5 : 〈◊〉 & Apostolice 〈◊〉 nec non antiquorum Prophetarum 〈◊〉 plane 〈◊〉 de sensu Numinis: The evangelical and Apostolical books, together with the Oracles of the ancient Prophets, do plainly (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 evidently) instruct us, concerning the mind of God. And from all the former, it is manifest, that the Apostles writings are not patches, and shreds only of Apostolical Doctrine (as our 〈◊〉 against all antiquity presumeth to affirm) but the very substance, b 〈◊〉. l. 3. c. 1. Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae 〈◊〉, quam per eos per quos Euangeliú per venit ad nos. Quod quidem 〈◊〉 praeconia 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 vero per Dei 〈◊〉, in Scriptures nobis tradiderunt, sundamentum & columnam fidei nostrae suturam. Orig. praef. in joh. p. 161. Quae praedicavit & dixit (Paulus) haec 〈◊〉 scripsit. Niceph. Hist. Eccl. l. 2. c. 34. Quae presens oratione sua dilucide docuerat (Paulus) 〈◊〉 per compendium absens in memoriam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dedit, etc. and marrow of their whole Preaching, containing the sum of the Gospel; by faith and obedience whereof, we receive everlasting life. And thus much touching the Antecedent of the jesuits Argument. The sequel of the former Argument, which is, Because without precedent instruction by unwritten Tradition, we cannot be firmly assured that we have the right sense of the Scripture, therefore the last and final resolution is made unto unwritten Tradition, and not into Scripture, is inconsequent, and the Antecedent proveth not the Consequent: for precedent Tradition may be necessary, to deliver unto us the text of holy Scripture, and Precpts how to expound and use the same; and by Tradition we may receive a Commentary of some texts of holy Scripture: yet even as a Scholar, although he receive the books of Euclid and Aristotle from a Master, and precepts in what sort he shall proceed in his study, and withal, a Commentary declaring the meaning of these Authors, yet he doth not finally (being made learned himself) resolve his knowledge into the former, but into the principles of these Arts themselves: so likewise a novice in faith receiveth the holy. Scripture by Ministry and Tradition of the Church, and Precepts and Commentaries, whereby he is first enabled, and afterwards holpen in the right exposition thereof, yet after this Introduction, by further study and diligence, he collecteth Arguments from the Scripture itself, and being instructed in the sense thereof, he doth not finally resolve his belief into the Commentary and Introduction, but into the text or Doctrine of holy Scripture itself. Jesuit. Hence I may further infer, that Protestants have not throughly pondered the place of the Apostle unto Timothy, which they 〈◊〉 vehemently urge to prove the sufficiency of sole Scripture, for every man, as though he had said absolutely, that the Scriptures are able to instruct or make men wise unto Salvation, which he saith not but speaking particularly unto Timothy, saith, They are able to instruct or make thee wise unto salvation, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hast been aforehand instructed by word of mouth, and dost thereupon firmly believe all substantial Doctrines, and knowest all the necessary practice of Christian Discipline. ANSWER. The Adversary in this passage useth certain Arguments to prove that Protestants misunderstand the Text of S. Paul, 2. Timoth. 3.15, 16. when they urge the same to maintain the sufficiency of sole Scripture, to be a ground for all Christians finally to rest their faith upon. His first Argument is, The Apostle saith not absolutely that the Scriptures are able to make all men wise unto Salvation, but particularly to Timothy, a man instructed aforehand, and formerly 〈◊〉 all substantial grounds of Doctrine and Discipline, they are able 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make thee (being such a one, and so prepared) wise etc. To this I answer, 1. That although sentences of holy Scripture are sometimes restrained to the personal or particular subject of which they are first spoken, yet this is not general; and when the same happeneth, it must be proved by better Arguments than by the bare Emphasis of a word. For God said to joshua (a man qualified above the ordinary rank) I will not leave thee nor forsake thee, joshua 1. 5. yet the promise implied in this Text, is general and common to all just persons, Heb. 13.5. Our Saviour granted ministerial power to remit sins, by special commission to the Apostles, and delivering this commission to them, he breathed the holy Ghost into them, saying, Receive ye the holy Ghost, etc. 〈◊〉 20.22. Nevertheless our Adversaries affirm, that this authority was not only granted them, but to other Ministers of Christ which are not personally qualified as the Apostles were. Secondly, if the particular circumstance of Timothy his person, expressed in the single word, Thee, 2. Tim. 3.15. do limit S. Paul's doctrine, concerning the Scripture, in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then, where more circumstances are found in Texts concerning Traditions, the same may be answered as the jesuit doth this place of S. Paul's. For example, 2. Thessal. 2.15. The Apostle saith, Therefore 〈◊〉 stand fast, and hold the Traditions which 〈◊〉 have been taught, whether by word or our Epistle. In this Text so vehemently urged by Papists, for unwritten Tradition, is found a personal circumstance, Tee, 〈◊〉 Thessalonians which have been my immediate hearers, 1. Thess. 1. 5. and thereby are infallibly assured that the Tradition which I exhort you to hold is divine. Also you 〈◊〉, which have not received as yet a perfect Canon of the New Testament in writing, I say to you, stand fast and hold both written and unwritten Tradition. Thirdly, admitting the jesuits restraint, and it being granted, that the Scriptures do only make those people wise to Salvation, which are instructed aforehand, and have formerly been taught the substantial points of Christian Doctrine, yet this argueth not the insufficiency of Scripture, to be the only authentical rule and ground of Faith, because the said substantial Doctrines which in the Apostles days, before the Canon of the New Testament was finished, were partly contained in Scripture, and partly delivered by their vocal preaching, were afterwards, when the Canonical Scripture of the New Testament was finished, and the holy Apostles were deceased, wholly for matter of substance contained in the same Scripture a Iren. li. 4. c. 63. Apostolorum Doctrina etc. quae pervenit 〈◊〉 ad nos, custodita sine fictione, Scripturarum tractatione plenissima, nequè additamentum neque 〈◊〉 recipiens & lectio sine falsatione & secundum Scripturas expositio legitima & diligens &c. 〈◊〉. 2. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 9 Prome (inquit) Scripturas habes, siquid addiscere cupis, hinc poteris. . 〈◊〉. Verily the Apostle in that place speaketh only of the Scriptures of the Old Testament, affirming them sufficient not for every man, but for Timothy, and not sufficient for him by themselves alone, but per fidem quae est in Christo jesu, that is, 〈◊〉 with the Doctrine of Christian Faith, which Timothy had heard and believed, upon 〈◊〉 lively voice of Tradition. ANSWER. The Apostle in this place speaketh of the Scriptures of the Old Testament, but not only. Timothy when he was a child learned only the Scriptures of the Old Testament, but after his childhood, he read also the Scriptures of the New, 1. Tim. 4. 16. This Epistle was written by S. Paul not long before his death, 2. Tim. 4.6. at which time the greatest part of the Canon of the New Testament was finished a Eder. Oicon. Bib. lib. 4. pag. 482. Hanc epistolam omnium quae scripsit Paulus esse postremam, & ab eo iam ex hoc mundo trasituro, Roma ex vinculis ad Timotheum fuisse transmissam, constans omnium ferè Sanctorum est hoc loco patrum 〈◊〉. Videtur emm tunc eam 〈◊〉 cum esset proxim' fini: Ego enim inquit, iam delibor & tempus resolutionis meae instat. Et iterum, In priore mea defensione nullus mihi adstitit. Chrys. in 2. Timoth. Hom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Ambros. Theodorit. Theophilact. Anselm. in Comment. ; therefore it is not necessary that we should restrain these words, Thou from a child hast known the holy Scriptures, only to the Scriptures of the Old Testament, because Timothy, who in his youth read only the Old Testament, in the progress of his years read the New Testament also. And although no Scripture is able to make wise to salvation, without Faith in Christ jesus, yet this proveth not the holy Scripture to be an imperfect Rule; because if Tradition be added to Scripture, yet both these are not able to make people wise to salvation, without Faith. Heb. 4. 2. But admitting, that the Apostle in the first Clause, Thou from a Child hast known the holy Scriptures, speaketh of the Scriptures of the Old Testament; yet adding to the same in the latter part of his speech, through Faith which is in Christ jesus: if by Faith we understand the doctrine of Faith, revealed in the New Testament, there is no material or necessary part of doctrine, touching Christ jesus, which is not contained in the Scripture. 1. Cor. 15. 1, 2, 3, 4. And this was the Tenet of the ancient Catholic Church, as appeareth by S. Augustine, C. Petil. Lib. 3. cap. 6. who saith: Proinde sive de Christo sive de Ecclesia, sive de quacunque alia re, quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram, non dicam nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit, licet si nos, sed omnino quod secutus adiecit, si Angelus de Coelo vobis annunciaverit, praeterquam quod in Scriptures Legalibus & Euangelicis accepistis Anathema sit. I will not say, if we unworthy to be compared to him that spoke so; but if an Angel from Heaven shall teach any thing, either concerning Christ, or the Church, or concerning any other matter pertaining to Faith, or good life, besides that which you have received in the Legal and evangelical Scriptures, let him be Anathema. Jesuit. And in the consequent words of the Apostle, so much insisted upon, All Scripture inspired of God, is profitable to teach, etc. And if Protestants could so metamorphize the word Profitable, as to make it signify the same with the word Sufficient, which is very hard; yet were the Text much over-short, to prove their intent, That Scripture alone is sufficient for every man, seeing the Apostle speaks not of every man, but expressly of him who is Homo Dei, the Man of God, that is, one already fully instructed and firmly settled by Tradition in all the main points of Christian Faith, and godly Life, such a one as Timothy was. The Scriptures for men in this manner afore taught, and grounded in Faith, are abundantly sufficient, who will deny it? But this proveth at the most the sufficiency of the Scripture, joined with Tradition; not of Scripture alone, or of only, only, only Scripture a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Def. pag. 341. , as Protestants Books in great Letters very earnestly affirm. ANSWER. S. Paul himself useth both the word Profitable, Vers. 16. and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, are able to make wise to salvation, which is equivalent to Sufficient, Verse 15. And Protestants alone are not the men which expound the word Profitable, by Sufficient; for both the Fathers and many learned Papists do the like. Vincent. Lirinensis b Vincent. Lirin. Cum sit perfectus Scripturae Canon, fibique ad omnia satis superque sufficiat, etc. , C. Haeres. cap. 2. The Canon of the Scripture is sufficient, and more than sufficient. Cyril of Alexandria c Cyril. Alex. Sufficit Divina Scriptura ad faciendum eos qui in illa educati sunt sapientes & probatissimos & sufficientissimam habentes intelligentiam, etc. , C. julian. Lib. 7. pag. 150. The Scripture is sufficient to make them wise, which are brought up in it, etc. Anselm. d Anselm. Quae literae possunt te 〈◊〉, id est sufficienter doctum reddere ad aeternam salutem consequendam. in his Commentary upon 2. Tim. 3. 16. They are able to make thee sufficiently learned, to obtain eternal salvation. Gerson e Gerson. Scriprura nobis tradita est tanquam regula sufficiens & infallibilis, pro regimine totius Ecclesiasistici corporis, & membrorum, usque in finem seculi. D. Exam. Doctr. Part. 2. Consid. 1. The Scripture is given us as a sufficient Rule, etc. Scotus f Scot homini 〈◊〉 est sufficienter tradita in 〈◊〉 sacra. , 1. Sent. Prol. q. 2. Supernatural knowledge, necessary for a wayfaring man, is sufficiently delivered in sacred Scripture. The same is affirmed by Espencaeus g Espens. Easque posse hominem ad salutem erudire & sufficienter doctum reddere. , Commentar. 2. Tim. 3. 16. and by Bonaventure h Bonauent. Breviloq. cap. 1. , Occam i Occam. 〈◊〉. Part. 1. 〈◊〉. 2. cap. 10. , Waldensis k 〈◊〉. Wald. Doctr. Fid. Lib. 2. cap. 20. , and Gabriel l Aquin. 3. d. 25. art. 1. , Thom. Aquinas m Aquin. Com. joh. 21. Lect. 6. Si quis Euangelizaverit, etc. Gal. 1. 8. 〈◊〉 ratio est, quia sola Canonica Scriptura est Regula Fidei. Edit. Paris. An. 1520. per joh. d. Porta. , Lyra n 〈◊〉, Loc. 16. 29. Illi 〈◊〉 Mosen qui docuit moralia agenda: & Propheras qui docuerunt mystica & eredenda & 〈◊〉 sufficiunt ad salutem, ideo sequitur 〈◊〉 illos. , Durand. o Durand. 3. dist 26. q. 2. n. 7. , in 〈◊〉 sacra diffuse contineatur, etc. etc. But the Adversary saith, That granting the word (Profitable) did signify Sufficient, yet S. Paul's Text still falleth short, of proving the Scripture the only Rule, because it is not said to be sufficient for all men, but for the man of God; and it is not sufficient alone, and by itself, but being joined with Tradition. I answer first, That which is Sufficient in genere regulae, as a Rule for the man of God, either Minister, 1. Tim. 6. 12. or other spiritual man, 1. Cor. 2.15. is sufficient for all men, because there is but one common Object and Rule of Faith for the whole Church, and all the members thereof a Alex. Hal. 3. q. 12. m. 2. ar. 3. q 2. Fides quantum ad id quod creditur, est cadem numero in omnibus sanctis qui sunt membra Ecclesiae, etc. Isiodor d. Summ. Bon. Lib. 1. cap. 18. utrisque maner communis & paruulis & perfectis. , containing strong Meat for the Learned, and Milk or plain Doctrine for Babes. And therefore, if the Scripture be a Rule, and a sufficient Rule, it is such in common, and in respect of all people, although the manner of applying and using the same, may differ. Secondly, That which is Profitable, to make the man of God perfect, and throughly furnished to every good work, is both a sufficient Rule and an only Rule. First, it is sufficient, because it makes people which receiuc it by Faith and Obedience, meet for the kingdom of God: Secondly, it is alone sufficient; Qui effectus pluribus debetur perperam ascribitur uni. otherwise, this effect of making the man of God perfect, and throughly instructed, could not be ascribed to it alone, as it is manifestly done in the Apostles speech. When two persons equally co-worke, we cannot ascribe the whole work to one of them alone, but to both. Bread alone being one part of Food, is not sufficient to all kind of Nutriment. The Apostle in the Text alleged affirming, first, That the Scripture is able to make wise unto salvation: secondly affirming, That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the whole Scripture (as Dionysius Carthusian expoundeth it b 〈◊〉. Com. Omnis Scriptura etc. id est, tota Canonica Scriptura, etc. Chrysost. 2. Tim. Hom. 9 Si quid vel discere vel ignorare op' fit ex illis ad discemus, si arguere falsitatem inde hauriemus: si corrigi, si castigari ad exhortationem & solatium si quid desit & oporteat addipisci, ex 〈◊〉 discemus. ) given by inspiration, is profitable to teach, confute, instruct, reprove; and then declaring the greatness of the utilitic, which is, to make the man of God perfect, and throughly instructed to every good work c Oecumen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. : This effect cannot be ascribed to a partial cause, neither can the Apostle mean, that the whole Scripture is profitable, or sufficient only as one part of Divine Revelation, but because it containeth the whole Rule of Faith. If any shall pretend, That the Scripture is not sufficient of itself to these effects, because Divine Grace, Ecclesiastical Ministry, docility in the Hearer or Reader, are necessary (together with the Scripture) to make the man of God perfect; they must understand, that our question is, Whether holy Scripture alone be a sufficient rule of Faith? Not whether other adiwant causes be necessary for the receiving and applying thereof, that it may produce Faith. The Earth is sufficient to bring forth food for man, Gen. 1. 29. although Husbandmen and Graziers be necessary. Manna, Quails, and the water flowing from the Rock, were sufficient to feed the children of Israel in the Desert; yet Bakers and Cooks were necessary to prepare and dress this food, Exod. 16.6.24. Sap. 16.21. Even so, the holy Scripture is sufficient, as a Rule, to teach all Doctrine necessary for our spiritual nourishment, although the Ministry of man, and Divine Grace, be needful also, that we rightly use the same. If the Objection were good, to wit, Holy Scripture is not the only Rule, because by it alone, without Divine Grace and Ecclesiastical Ministry, etc. we cannot believe, than Tradition and holy Scripture being conjoined, to make up the Rule of Faith, the same will yet be insufficient, because without Divine Grace, Ecclesiastical Ministry, and docility in the people, neither Scripture nor Tradition can produce Faith. Jesuit. Hence also we may conclude that the many allegations of Fathers, which Protestants bring to prove the Scripture to be clear in all substantial points, are impertinent, because the Fathers speak of men aforehand instructed in all substantial points, who may by the light of Tradition easily discover in Scripture, as they that heard Aristotle explicate himself by word of mouth, may understand his Book of Nature, most difficile to be understood of them that never heard his explication, either out of his own mouth, or by Tradition of his scholars. ANSWER. Out of your own fancies you may conclude what you please: but from the Fathers nothing can be concluded, repugnant to that which Protestants hold, concerning the perspicuity of sacred Scripture, even in itself. Ireneus saith a Iren. lib. 2. c. 46. Vniversae Scripturae Propheticae & Euangelicae, in aperto & sine ambiguitate, & similitèr ab omnibus audiri possunt. , All the Scriptures both Prophetical and evangelical, are clear without ambiguity, and may indifferently be heard of all men. S. Hierom b Hieron. super Esa. cap. 19 Mos est Scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere. , It is the manner of the Scripture to join that which is manifest to such things as are obscure. S. Cyril c Cyril. c. julian. lib. 7. p. 60. Vt omnibus essent nota paruis & magnis, utilitèr familiari sermone commendata sunt ut nullius captum transcendent. , That they may be known of all people both small and great, they are profitably commended unto us in a familiar kind of speaking, that they may exceed the capacity of none. S. Augustine d Aug. ad Volus. Ep. 3. & d. verb. Ap. Serm. 13. & d. util. Cred. c. 6. & sup. Psal. 88 Eder. 〈◊〉. Bibl. lib. 1. p. 52. Media inter 〈◊〉 duo veluti extrema sententia D. est August. Epist. ad Volus. Vbi literas sacras non quidem vsquè adeò difficiles esse, quin ex iis study & diligentia tantum quisquè possit assequi quantum ci ad salutem, utile sit atquè necessarium. , Plain places are found in them to expound and open the dark and hard. S. Gregory e Greg. Praefat. job. ad Leandr. ca 4. Habet in publico undè paruulos nutriat, etc. , The Scripture hath so much in open 〈◊〉 as may feed little ones. S. Chrysoft. a Chrys. d. verb. Eia. Hom. 2. Scripturae non sunt meralla quae indigent operarijs, sed thesaurum praebent paratum 〈◊〉 qui quaerunt opes in 〈◊〉 reconditas. Satis est enim introspexisse ut omni expleti fructu 〈◊〉. Satis est 〈◊〉 aperuisse ut illicò videas gemmarum splendorem. 〈◊〉. d. Sum. Bon. li. 1. 〈◊〉. 18. Simplices inveniunt modicos intellectus ad quos ipsi humiles refugiunt. 〈◊〉. Explic. Euang. Lectionis sacrae 〈◊〉 imbecillis bacculum meruosis arma ministrat, etc. Accost. d. Christ. Revel. lib. 2. cap. 2. Ita providit dulcis pater ut multa sint in sacris literis aperta, historica, 〈◊〉, etc. Atquè hoc est in divina Scriptura omninò mirabile, neminem esse tàm rudem & imperitum quin si humilitèr legat multa illic utilia veraquè intelligat. , Scriptures are 〈◊〉 like metals, which have need of workmen to dig them out, but they deliver a treasure ready at hand, for them which seek hidden riches in them. It is sufficient to look into them, that you may depart replenished with all fruit, it is sufficient only to open them, that you may presently behold the splendour of their pearls. And although the ancient Fathers do many times refer people to Tradition b Cassandr. Def. lib. d. Offic. Bon. viri, pa. 820. Intelligentia Scripturae quae ex Traditione percipitur, non est ab ipsa. Scriptura seperanda, cum in 〈◊〉 continentur vel tanquam definitio in definito vel tanquam 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉. Cum 〈◊〉 huic seu Traditioni Cathol. seu 〈◊〉, non scripta authoritas in 〈◊〉 dijudicatione 〈◊〉, nihil ipsi Scripturae subtrahitur, cum nihil aliud sit quam mens & intelligentia Scripturae antiquitus nobis tradita quae ut scripta non sit in eyes tamen quae sctipta sunt continetur. especially in three cases: First, For the testifying of the number and integrity of the Books of Canonical Scripture: Secondly, For the clearing of some hard or ambiguous Texts of Scripture, from the new and forged expositions of Heretics: Thirdly, For external rites and ceremonies: yet neither the Fathers, nor the more learned Papists themselves c 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Com. sup. Genes. 〈◊〉. C. Luther, at. 18. Abul. Defence. part. 2. ca 18. pa. 39 〈◊〉 22. q. 1. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉, pag. 38. 〈◊〉. 4. d. 5. q. 1. 〈◊〉. 1. , do hold that there is a large and general Commentary of all the Scriptures, or of all the difficile places thereof, received from the Apostles, and preserved until our days; neither do the Father's d 〈◊〉. Lir. c. Haer. cap. 39 Quae tamen antiquorum patrum sententia non in omnibus divinae 〈◊〉, sed solùm certè praecipuè, in fidei regula magno nobis study & 〈◊〉 est & 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 ca 41. Vt ad unam Ecclesiastici sensus regulam Scripturae caelestis intelligentia 〈◊〉, in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praecipuè quaestionibus quibus totius Catholici Dogmatis 〈◊〉 nitantur. hold, that people cannot read the holy Scripture with profit, or collect the true meaning of them in points substantial and necessary, without such a Commentary. First, If such a Commentary were extant, it must be found in the elder Fathers, Tertullian, Ireneus, Origen, etc. But the Papists themselves e joh. Picus. Mirand. Apol. q. 1. Ego hoe dico & firmitèr assero, non valere istam consequentiam, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est contrà Aug. 〈◊〉. Greg. 〈◊〉, Ergo est haeretica. Quamuis 〈◊〉 sanctorum Doctorum Scriptura extrà Canonem Bibliae 〈◊〉, fit habenda & legenda & non tamèn sunt 〈◊〉 dicta, ità firmae authoritatis & immobilitatis, ut eis contradicere non liceat. will not always be tied to their Expositions, as appeareth by their forsaking of Tertullian in the Exposition of the words of the Gospel, Hoc est corpus meum f Greg. Val. tom. 4. pag. 1073. , This is my body; and by their forsaking of Origen g Orig. sup. Math. tract. 1. In unoquoquè perfecto habente congregationem eorum qui complent 〈◊〉, verborum, factorum, & sensuum, est quae à Deo aedificatur Ecclesia. Quod si super unum illum Petrum tantum existimas aedificatam totam Ecclefiam, quid dicturus es de johanne filio 〈◊〉, & Apostolorum unoquoquè. Vide Genebrard. Collectam in Orig. in many of his Expositions; and again of Tertullian h Tertul. d. pudicit. cap. 21. Si quia dixerit Petro dominus, super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam, & 〈◊〉 praesumis, adte derivasse 〈◊〉 & aligandi potestatem, id est ad 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, qualis es 〈◊〉 atquè commutans manifestam domini 〈◊〉, etc. Read 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. n. 186. Censuring and condemning this Exposition. in his Exposition of Math. 16. 17. Secondly, The Exposition of Scripture, given by the Fathers, is many times repugnant, and different each of them from other, as Sixtus Senensis in his Bibliotheca, and Cardinal 〈◊〉 in his Commentaries, and other Pontificians do show, a in Gen. l. 3. c. 2. q. 5. 〈◊〉. in 1. p. Tho. disput. 8. p-49. 〈◊〉. an. 34. n. 213. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. l. 11. c. 6. 〈◊〉. c. Cajetan. Gillius come. Theol. d. 〈◊〉. & d. Deo. l. 1. tr. 7. c. 11. 〈◊〉. loc. l. 5. c. 3. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Quest. in 1. sent. q. 5. but if there had been a large and general Commentary of Scripture, or of all, or most of the harder places of Scripture, the ancient Fathers, 〈◊〉 nearest upon the Apostles, must have known and followed that, and so could neither have erred in exposition, nor differed one for the other. Thirdly, the Fathers affirm; that the Scripture expounds itself; Aug. d. verb. 〈◊〉. Serm. 2. a Aug. Ipsa verba Euangelica secum portant expositiones suas. Idem. d. doct. Christ. l. 2. c. 6. Nihil ferè de illis obscuritatibus eruitur, quod non 〈◊〉 dictum alibi reperitur. & d. unit. Eccles. c. 5. p. 427. Chrys. sup. Gen. Hom. 13. b Chrys. Sacra Scriptura seipsam 〈◊〉. Basil. l. 2. d. Bapt. Eorum quae ab ipso dicta sunt ex his quae in alio loco dicta sunt veritatem ac salutare discamus. Greg. sup. Ezech. Hom. 7. Divina eloquia, cum legente 〈◊〉 nam 〈◊〉 illa quisque 〈◊〉 intelligit, 〈◊〉 in eyes alti' 〈◊〉. Accost. d. Christ. Revel. l. 3. c. 21. Nihil mihi videtur sic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ut 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉; diligens, attenta, frequens 〈◊〉 tum meditatio & collatio Scripturarun, omnium 〈◊〉 regula, ad intelligendum semper est visa, nam ex aliis Scripturis aliae optimè intelliguntur: tum phrasis ipsa, tum 〈◊〉 familiaris 〈◊〉 ut assuetis jam 〈◊〉 intelligcntia pateat. Itaque obscuram aperta, dubian certa interpretantur. And they do not always refer men to Tradition, concerning exposition of Scripture, but prescribe other rules and means also. Aug. d, Doctr. Christ. l. 4. c. 30. etc. Chrys. sup. Gen. Hom. 21. & sup. Rom. Hom. 13. & sup. john Hom. 39 Tertul. c. prax. Hilar d. Trinit. l. 5. Ambros. 〈◊〉. Psal. 118. Serm. 8. Origen. Mat. Hom. 25. Fourthly, that which the Adversary affirmeth touching the Fathers, to wit, that they held the Scriptures to be clear in all substantial points, only to men beforehand instructed, by the light of Tradition, is untrue; neither do the Fathers speak of Tradition according to the Romish acceptation. First, sometimes the Fathers exhort heathen men, which were not instructed by Tradition, to read the Scriptures. Theophilus Antiochenus saith to Autolicus, c 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Tom. 1. p. 898. l. 1. ad 〈◊〉. being as then a Pagan, Verum tu ipse si placet consul litter as sacras: But do thou thyself if it seem good unto thee, consult with the holy Scriptures. Also they provoke Heretics, which denied the Tradition of the Church, to examine truth by Scriptures: August. d. unit. Eccles. c. 2.3.16. & contra Maxim. Arrian. l. 3. c. 14. Socrates Hist. lib. 1. cap. 6. Secondly, by Tradition they understand not the fabulous dreams and inventions of Papals, d Gerson. d. fig. Ruin. Eccl. sig. 8. Fabulae sunt & non sanae Doctrinae, etc. Idem. d. spir. vit. anim. l. 2. Has vero Traditiones hominum quis cunctas dinumeret in Canonibus summorum pontificum in constitutionibus Synodalibus provinciarum aut Diocesium, in Religionum regulis. 〈◊〉. Bacon. l. 3. sent. . who like the Pharisees corrupt the right sense of Scripture, by their unwritten Traditions, and affirm those things to be Apostolical, which agree with the confessed Doctrine of the Apostles, like darkness with light: But the Fathers by Tradition, understand such exposition of Scripture, as was uniformly received, and commended for Apostolical, by the Primative Church, and which besides antiquity, or the report of men, appeared to be Apostolical, by an exact harmony and consent with the Text of the holy Scripture, to which it was applied. St. August. e Aug. Quod autem nos admonet ut ad fontem recurramus, id est ad Apostolicam Traditionem & inde 〈◊〉 in nostra tempora dirigamus, optimum est & sine dubitatione faciendum. Traditum est ergo nobis sicut ipse comemorat Apostolus, quod sit unus Christus & unꝰ Deus & una spes, & una fides, & una Ecclesia & Baptisma unum. d. Bapt. c. Donatist. l. 5, c. 26. St. Cyprian. Epist. 74. Tertul. d. prescript. c. 21. Ruffin. Hist. Ecclesiast. l. 2. c. 9. Jesuit. I hope I have in the opinion of your most learned Majesty, sufficiently demonstrated the first ground of Catholic faith, to wit, that a Christian is originally and fundamentally built upon the word of God, not as written 〈◊〉 Scriptures, but as delivered by the Tradition of the Church, successively from the Primative, upon the authority whereof we believe, that both Scriptures and all other substantial Articles of Faith were delivered by the Apostles, thence further ascending and inferring they came from Christ, and so from God the prime verity and Author of truth. ANSWER. You have played the Paralogist, and woven a spider's web, which is fitter to catch flies, than to persuade so religious, learned, judicious, and resolute a king, who is like an Angel of God, knowing good and evil. Your objections being weighed in the balance of the Sanctuary, are found light, they are Funiculus vanitatis, a cord and bundle of vanity, a potsherd covered over with the dross of silver. His most learned Majesty (as you truly style him) honoureth genuine and Orthodox all Tradition, as no religious king, or good Christian can do more, and hereupon, to wit, upon the testimony of Tradition (besides other Arguments) he believeth that you and your consorts are deceived, a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Tom. 1. an. 53. n. 11. Greg. Val. To. 3. p. 347. Posseu. 〈◊〉. 1. 2. c. 25. 〈◊〉. loc. 3. when you hold that a Christian is originally and fundamentally built upon the word of God, not as written in Scripture, but as delivered by Tradition, etc. For if the Scripture, according to the doctrine and Tradition of the Primative Church, is eminentissimae authoritatis b Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. Fid. vol. 3. disp. 15. c. 12. Respondeo vere ac jure authoritatem Scripturae, praelatam omninò efse authoritati Ecclesiae, tanquam verbum Dei, omni alio verbo creato, etiam irrefragabili, quia longe majus est Deum per seipsum loqui, quam 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae infallibiter loquenti, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dirigere ne aberret. p. 101. col. 2. 〈◊〉 praef. prol. sup. 1. sent. Scientia sacrae Scripturae habet prae caeteris dignitatem eminentiae, quasi 〈◊〉. Sicut enim principium dignius est aliis propositionibus in scientia, unde & dignitas 〈◊〉: sic recte 〈◊〉 scientia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est, & inter ipsas 〈◊〉 principatum. of most eminent authority: If it be the seed, of which faith is first of all conceived: if it is the Rock, whereupon the Church is built: if the authority of unwritten Tradition dependeth upon it, and must be examined by it. If the Church's authority is 〈◊〉 from it, than a Christian is originally and fundamentally built upon it. First, That which is most excellent in every kind, is the model and pattern of all the rest a Aristot. Metaph. li. 2. cap. 2. Aquin. p. 3. q. 56. ad. 3. Sempèr id quod est 〈◊〉, est exemplat 〈◊〉 quod est minus 〈◊〉, secundum eius modum. but I trow you will grant the Scripture to be the most excellent part of God's word b Card. 〈◊〉. In Vesper. Recom. Script. In cuius montis vertice, Christus suum habitaculum praedisponens ibi Ecclesiae suae fundamentum posuit & in altissimo veritatis 〈◊〉, sacrae scripturae veritate, fundavit ipsam. , 2. Pet. 1. 〈◊〉. S. 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉. Manich. li. 11 cap. 5. & d. Civit. Dei, lib. 11. cap. 3. & Ibid. 〈◊〉. 14. cap. 7. & d. Vnit. Eccles. c Aug. d. unit. Eccles. ca 16. Haec sunt causae nostrae 〈◊〉, hec sundamenta, haec firmamenta. Legimus in Actibus Apostolorum dictum de quibusdam credentibus quod quotidiè scrutarentur Scripturas, an haec ita se haberent. Quas itaquè Scripturas nisi Canonicas legis & Prophetarum? Huc accesserunt 〈◊〉 Apostolicae 〈◊〉, Actus Apostolorun, Apocal johannis, scrutamini haec omnia & eruite aliquid manifestum quo demonstretis Ecclesiam. 16. Chris. d. 〈◊〉. Hom. 4. Oecumen. sup. 2. Tim. 3. Ansel. sup. 2. Tim. 3. Secondly, A Christian is fundamentally built upon the rock, but the Scripture is a rock. Cardinalis Camaracensis 〈◊〉. vespert. 〈◊〉. sacrae Scripturae d Card. Camerac. Sacra Scriptura Christi testimonijs in 〈◊〉 fundata spiritualitèr intelligi potest, illa firma petra supra quam aedificata est Ecclesia. Idem. In quolibet aedificio rationabilitèr ordinato, primò praecedit fundatio, secundò procedit aedificatio, 〈◊〉 succedit consummatio, hoc igitur modo 〈◊〉 omnium 〈◊〉, super Scripturae sacrae petram 〈◊〉 suam aedificavit. Idem. Christus Dei virtus & Dei sapientia Ecclesiae suae domum quam interna ment concepit, super sacrae Scripturae fundamentum temporali aedificatione complevit. Chrys. Math. Hom. 46. Jerusalem hic semper Ecclefiam intellige, quae dicitur civitas pacis cujus sundamenta posita sunt super montes Scripturarum. , In every building orderly framed, the foundation hath precedence, then followeth superedification, and lastly consummation. According to this order, Christ the most exact Architect did build his Church upon the rock of holy Scripture. Thirdly, The seed of Faith is the root and foundation of 〈◊〉 Christian, the Scripture is the seed of Faith e Aug. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 19 ca 18. Credit Scriptures Sanctis veteribus & novis, quas Canonicas appellamus, unde fides ipsa concepta est, qua 〈◊〉 vivit. (john 20. 41.) for it is the word of God, Luc. 8.11. jam. 1.18. 1. Cor. 4, 15. And were the Popish Tenet true, that the Scripture is not the whole word of God, but only a part thereof, yet a Christian must be originally and fundamentally built upon it, together with Tradition f Vinc. Lir. c. Haer. ca 1. Duplici modo munire fidem, primo scilicet Divinae legis authoritate deindè Catholicae Ecclesiae Traditione. Ib. c. 41. And Tradition according to the Tenet of our Adversary in this place, cannot be the sole foundation of Christianity, but only a part of the foundation. Fourthly, All Scripture given by divine Inspiration is simply and without exception to be received: and all Tradition repugnant to Scripture is to be refused g Basselis. Praef. prol. sup. 1. sent. Scriptura est veritas aliarum exemplaris, etc. . From hence it followeth, that Scripture is a rule of Tradition, and not Tradition of Scripture; and Scripture is the highest rule (as both the Fathers h Athan. d. Synod. 〈◊〉. Et Seleuc. pa. 673. Hieron. sup. Galath. ca 1. and many Papists i Aug. Triumph. d. Pot. Ecclef. q. 100 ar. 1. Primum locum authoritatis tenet Scriptura veteris & novi Testamenti. Andrad. Def. li. 2. pa. 171. Neminem inficiare divinorum 〈◊〉 cognitionem ex 〈◊〉 literis 〈◊〉 petendam 〈◊〉, illasquè imprimis consulendas, cum res 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 questionemquè vocatur etc. Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. Fid. vol. 3. Dub. 18. ca 14. Vndè comparatione hujus (Scripturae) testimonium Ecclesiae, dici quodammodò potest testimonium hominum 〈◊〉 quod in rigore Sermonis non obtinet proprietates & 〈◊〉 ad rationem verbi Dei, & proindè respectu etiàm illius intelligi potest id quod a beato Iohanne scriptum est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hominum accipitis, testimonium Deimajus est. 〈◊〉 c. 15. Testimonium Scripturae in seipso 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 est quam testimonium 〈◊〉 quià illud ab intrinseco est verbum Dei, hoc vero ab 〈◊〉. Caiet. d. Author. Pap. & Concil. p. 2. ca 4. & Apolog. c. 〈◊〉. ca 23. ad. 5. themselves affirm) and thus it is certain, that a Christian is originally and fundamentally built upon the holy Scripture. JESVITS 2d, Ground. That there is a visible Church always in the world, to whose Traditions men are to cleave, and the Church is one Universal, Apostolical, Holy. ANSWER. The subject of this Proposition, to wit, Ecclesia, the Church is a word or term of diverse significations a Suar. d. Fid. disp. 5. sect. 6. Ecclesiae nomen varias habet significationes. Card. Monilian. Theol. Instit. Compend. c. 34. Ne laboremus in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est de singulis 〈◊〉 significatis. 〈◊〉. Sum. d. Ecclel. lib. 1. cap. 2. 〈◊〉. Quest. Vesp. Recom. Scrip. cap. 3. d. 2. Gabriel. Can. Miss. lect. 21. & lect. 75. Occam. Dialog. p. 1. li. 1. c. 4. , and therefore the jesuit should have declared in what notion he taketh the same, when he sayeth, There is a visible Church, etc. First Cardinal Bellarmine b Bellarm. d. Eccles. lib. 3. ca 2. Ecclesia est caetus 〈◊〉 fidei Christianae 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 Sacramentorum communione colligatum, sub regimine 〈◊〉 pastorum, ac praecipuè 〈◊〉 Christi in 〈◊〉 Vicarij Romani 〈◊〉. Tres sunt parts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: professio verae fidei: Sacramentorum communio & subiectio ad 〈◊〉 Pastorem Rom. Pontificem. , with other Pontificians c Greg. 〈◊〉. Analys. fid. li. 6. ca 1. Martin. Eisengren. li. d. Eccles. Cath. ca 1. , saith, that the Church whereof he disputes, is a company of people linked together by the same profession of Faith, and Communion of Sacraments under lawful pastros, 〈◊〉 under the Roman Bishop, who is Christ's Vicar. Secondly, The term (Church) is taken in the holy Scripture for the universal number of holy believers in all ages; and more strictly, for the whole number of holy believers under the New Testament, Heb. 12.23. Apoc. 5.9. Ephes. 5.25.27. and thus it comprehendeth both the Church Militant, and Triumphant d Aug. 〈◊〉. c. 56. Quae tota hic accipienda est, non solú ex parte qua 〈◊〉 terris, etc. Verum etiam ex illa quae in coelis, etc. Templú Dej hoc est totius summae illius Trinitatis sancta est Ecclesia, 〈◊〉, universa in Coelo & in terra Id. sup. Psalm. 56. Nec 〈◊〉 quae 〈◊〉 est in hominibus qui presentem vitam agunt, sed ad eam 〈◊〉, etiam his qui fuerunt antè 〈◊〉, & futuri sunt post nos vsquè ad 〈◊〉 Seculi. Id. sup. Psal. 90. conc. 2. Orig. in 〈◊〉. Hom. 2. Greg. Mor. li. 28. c. 6. & in Psal. 5. Paenit. 〈◊〉. Resol. li. 4. c. 14. n. 10. . Thirdly, the Church is taken for the common and universal multitude of Christian people, of any one or more ages, which are baptised, and externally profess Christianity. And according to this notion, it comprehendeth both the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean e Aug. d. Civit. Dei li. 18. cap. 49. & sup. 〈◊〉. tr. 6. & d. Vnit. Eccles. c. 13. 〈◊〉. Ep. 51. & Ep. 52. Hieron. c. Lucifer. 〈◊〉. d. Fid. ad Petr. ca 43. 〈◊〉. Naz. c. julian. Orat. 1. 1. 〈◊〉. d. Sacer. li. 3. Greg. in 〈◊〉 Hom. 11. Chrysolog. Serm. 47. Franc. Pic. Mirand. Theor. 13. of that profession, 2. Tim. 2. 20. Math. 13.25.47. Math. 3.12. etc. 22.10. 〈◊〉, it is taken for Particular Societies, and congregations of Christians, Apoc. 1.4. & 2.1. and sometimes it is taken for the Pastors of particular Churches, Math. 18.17. sometimes for the People, Acts 20.28. sometimes for the whole Flock, consisting of Pastors and People a cyprian. Epist. 69. Illi sunt Ecclefia, plebs Sacerdoti adunita & pastori suo grex adhaerens. , Apoc. 3.6. But it is never taken in holy Scripture for the Pope and Council b camer. Quest. Vesp. Recom. script. p. 278. Gabriel. sup. Can. Miss. lect. 75. . If the jesuit in his Proposition, There is a visible Church always in the world, etc. understand the 〈◊〉 (Church) in the first Notion, than it is denied that we are absolutely to adhere to the Traditions of this Church, or that the same is always and entirely, One, Universal, Apostolical, Holy, according to the meaning of the Apostles, and Nicene c Franc. Picus, Theor. 4. In Symbolo edito Nicece, etc. . Creed. Secondly, according to the second Notion, the Church is not visible, for a principal part thereof is in heaven, and the other moetie militant upon earth, being considered as elect and holy, is known intuitively to God only, 2. Tim. 2.19. and morally, coniecturally, and according to the judgement of Charity to men in this world, 2. Thess. 2.13. d Tertul. d. prescript. c. 3. Tu ut homo 〈◊〉 unumquenquè nosti, putas quod vides, Vides autem quousquè oculos habes. Sed oculi 〈◊〉 alti. Homo in faciem Deus in praecordia contemplatur. Et ideo cognoscit Dominus qui sunt eius, etc. Cusan. Concord. Cath. li. 1. ca 4. Nullum est iudicium certum, de membris Ecclefiae, nisi in modò renatis infantibus. Thirdly, according to the third Notion, the Church is visible in all ages, and some part thereof teacheth and professeth right Faith in all substantial and fundamental articles. And we are to cleave to the Traditions of the same, so far as in the delivery thereof it exceedeth and transgresseth not the bounds of lawful authority e 〈◊〉. 2. d. 44. q. 3. nu. 9 Ecclesia licet habet in terris dominationé Dei illa tamen non excedit limitationé Scripturae. , and teacheth according to the rule of God's word. S. Chrysostome saith, Because Seducers are often found even in true Churches, we are not to believe, unless they speak and do that which is consonant to the Scriptures f Chrys. imperfin Math. 49. Nec ipfis 〈◊〉 (Ecclesijs) oredendum est, nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae convenientia sunt Scriptures. . And in another place g Id. in 2. Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam, ne paulò quidem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fi quid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, fi quid humamam, sed Apostolo Christum in fe loquentem circumferenti. , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. If the Priest teach any perverse Doctrine, give no credit, yea though he were an Angel. Nay I will presume to say more than this, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, one ought not believe Paul, if he should preach any thing humane, or of himself, but as he is an Apostle, and hath Christ speaking in him. Lastly, according to the fourth Acceptation, there are ever in the world particular Churches and societies of Christians, and every one of these Churches profess some portion of divine verity. But we must inquire by the rule of God's word, which of these are pure and orthodoxal, and on the contrary, which of them are infected with errors a Hilar. in Matth. Canon. 8. Ecclesiae inter quas verbum Der non Ora. 1. c. Arrian. Bonum est, vel potius necessarium, optare gratiam discerquos abijcere, ut 〈◊〉 cognoscat, secudum Ioannis Praeceptum (1. 〈◊〉. 4. 1.) quos abijcere, 〈◊〉 ut amicos, & qui ciusdem naturae 〈◊〉, recipere 〈◊〉. , and embrace the Doctrine of the one, and avoid the Corruptions of the other. Remarkable Observations concerning the Church. OBSERVATION I. THe external visible Church is an intermixed a August. d. 〈◊〉. Christ. Lib. 3. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. de corpore Domini vero atque 〈◊〉, etc. or compounded society, body, and state of Christian people professing the faith and worship of Christ, in which are found sheep and goats, wheat and tares, gold and dross, good fishes and bad, and vessels of honour and dishonour. This common and general society and body consisteth of diverse particular Churches, consenting and agreeing in the professing of some part of divine verity: and of these Churches some are orthodoxal, some are impure in faith and religion, and also these being compared are respectively purer or impurer. And within the compass of each particular Church the members are better or worse, more or less holy or corrupt. OBSERVAT. II. Whereas the Church hath many Titles and Properties belonging to it, and Christ jesus the Head thereof hath made sundry Promises, and conferred divers Graces upon it; we must consider, which part of the Church is the proper subject of these Qualities, Promises, and Graces a August. Praef. in Psal. 47. Secundam Sabbathi non debemus intelligere nisi Ecclesiam Christi, sed Ecclesiam Christi in sanctis, Ecclesiam Christi in hijs qui scripti 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉, Ecclesiam Christi in hijs qui tentationibus mundi non cedunt. Ipsi enim digni sunt nomine firmamenti. Ergo Ecclesia Christi in hijs qui firmi sunt, de quibus dicit Apostolus, debemus autem nos firmi infirmitatem infirmortum suftinere, Rom. 15. appellata est firmamentum. Tho. 〈◊〉. 10. 1. h. 2. ar. 2. c. 11. Vocabula summx laudis & excellentiae tituli quamuis indistinctè per Scriptturas de tota 〈◊〉 Ecclesia tamen de sola gloriofa parte eius debent intelligi. Aug. c. Don. li. 5. ca 27. Quod in Cant. Cantic. Ecclesia sic describitur, Hortus conclusus, 〈◊〉 mea sponsa, son's 〈◊〉, puteus aquae vinae, Paradisus cum cum fructu pomorum, hoc intelligere non audeo, nisi in iustis & sanctis. Bernard. sup. Cantic. Ser. 68 Et quid sponsa, 〈◊〉 congregatio 〈◊〉? quid ipsa, 〈◊〉 generatio 〈◊〉 Dominum, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sponfis? : For it is apparent, That as Sheep and Goats, Chaff and Wheat, Gold and Dross, are of a contrary kind, although they are intermixed; so likewise the Affections and Attributes of the same, although they are spoken in general of the whole Subject (as an Heap which hath Wheat and Chaff, a Field which hath Wheat and Tares, are called an Heap of Grain, a Field of Wheat) yet many of them appertain formally, and indeed, only to the better part of the common Subject. OBSERVAT. III. In the visible society of Christian people, there are found (according to S. Augustine a Aug. 〈◊〉. Psal. 61. 〈◊〉 d. Doctr. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 3. c. 37. Est enim ipse (Diabolus) caput impiorum, qui sunt erus quodammodo corpus, ituri cum illo in supplieium aeterni ignis: Sicut Christus caput est Ecclesiae, quae est corpus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum illo in regno & gloria sempiterna. ) Citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem, and also Inhabitants of Babylon. And (as the same Father teacheth) Notum est cives malae Civitatis, administrare quosdam actus, 〈◊〉 Civitatis: It is manifest, that (in the visible Church) Burghers of the wicked City Babylon, do administer some Functions of the holy City Jerusalem. joh. 12.6. 2. Timoth. 4.10. Apoc. 3.14, 15. Phil. 〈◊〉). joh. 3.9. The Promises of Christ made to the Church concerning his August. joh. tr. 11. Quomodo in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, non obfuit illis 〈◊〉 de ancillis nati 〈◊〉, quo min' tenerent regnum, & terram promissionis cum fratribus, ex 〈◊〉 acciperent non illis obsuerant natales ancillarum sed praevaluit semé paternum: sic quicunque per malos baptizantur, tanquam de ancillis videntur nati, tamen quia ex 〈◊〉 verbi Dei quod figuratur in jacob, simul cum fratribus haredittatem 〈◊〉. August. ibid. tr. 5. Spiritualis virtus Sacramenti ita est ut lux, ab illuminandis pura accipitur, & si per 〈◊〉 transeat, non 〈◊〉. Idem, ep 3. add 〈◊〉. tants est divina potentia gratiae ut per malos acquirat bonos, & per reprobos & improbos, acquirat & colligat probos. Idem, contra Parmen. Lib. 2. cap. 8. Verba bona quae pro populo dicuntur in precibus, etiamsi a malis dicantur, Episcopis exaudiuntur tamen non pro perversitate praepositorum sed pro devotione populorum. cbrysof. sup. joh. Hom. 85. & sup. 1. 〈◊〉. Hom. 8. pag. 383. Scot 4. d. 5. d. 1. presence and assistance, to his Word and Sacraments, preached and administered according to his commandment, are fulfilled, when wicked persons execute the office, and perform the work of outward 〈◊〉. For although wicked persons, like the Carpenters of Noah's Ark, reap no benefit to themselves, yet God Almighty concurreth with their Ministry (being his own Ordinance) for the salvation of all devout and worthy Communicants. OBSERVAT. FOUR Some things are spoken of the Church in common, or general terms, to show what the whole is in respect of Gods outward vocation, or what the office and duty of the whole Church is: but the same promises, properties, and privileges are really fulfilled or found in the better and sounder part thereof only a 〈◊〉. Lapid. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. ca 2. v. 4. vel Ecclesiae promittit, quantumuis amplis & universalibus verbis, id tamen de cum Deo promittente & paciscente seruant intelligendum esse. 〈◊〉. 71. . When our Saviour promiseth, that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church (Matth. 16.18.) he understandeth such a Church as heareth and obeyeth his word b 〈◊〉. d. . 3. Object, Lex & 〈◊〉 Dei absoluta insallibiliter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non sit dispositio ex parte nostra 〈◊〉. 16. 17. & 28. 20. etc. Resp. 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉 solum in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 decretis dei dei absolutis, super co quod est sine nobis, vel sine 〈◊〉 actionum 〈◊〉, non est aurem 〈◊〉 antecedens in his , etiamsi sint actions publicae, sive communes Papae & 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 tales promissiones intelliguntur quod implebuntur secundum nostram dispositionem. , and not a visible company or Hierarchy of Prelates, which forsake his word, and do what they list. August. d. Vnit. Ecclesiae, cap. 18. Ecclesia in his est qui adificant supra Petram, id est qui credunt verbum Christi, & faciunt, & d. Baptismo, Lib. 6. cap. 24. Nun illi sunt in Ecclefia, qui sunt in Petra? Qui autem in Petra non sunt, nec in Ecclesia sunt, iam ergò videamus, utrum super Petram aedificium suum constituant, qui audiunt Christi verba & non faciant. Saint Augustine in these words delivereth three things: first, The Church is in them which build upon the Rock: secondly, They are not in the Church, which are not in the Rock: thirdly, They only build upon the Rock, and are in the Rock, which believe and obey the word of Christ a Orig. in 〈◊〉. Hom. 1. Petra est omnis qui imitator est Christi & super omnes 〈◊〉, aedificatur Ecclesia Dei. Aug. c. Don. Lib. 3. cap. 18. Petra tenet, Petra dimittit, columba tenet, columna dimittit, unitas tenet, unitas dimittit, pax autem huius unitatis in solis bonis est, vel iam spirituahbus, vel ad spiritualia concordi unitate, proficientibus, 〈◊〉 malis, autem non est, etc. Ibid. Lib. 6. cap. 3. & Lib 7. cap. 51. Idem d. unit. Eccles. cap. 16. Ego ipsam Ecclesiam requiro ubi sit, quae audiendo verba Christi, & faciendo aedificat supra Petram. . And this Doctrine of S. Augustine is taken out of the holy Scripture. Matth. 7.24. 1. Cor. 3.11. & 10.4. Also when S. Paul saith, The Church is the ground and pillar of Truth b Hieron. Sup. 〈◊〉. 26. Ipsa Ecclesia quae est sanctorum omnium congregatio, pro aeterna sibi in Domino stabilitate, columna, & firmamentum, dicitur veritatis. August. Praef. Psal. 47. Ecclesiam Christi in sanctis, Ecclesiam Christi in hijs qui scripti sunt in caelo etc. ipsi digni sunt nomine firmamenti Ecclesia Christi in hijs qui sunt firmi etc. eam firmamentum Apostolicis 〈◊〉 appellatam audi & agnosce. 1. Timoth. 3.15. , 1. Tim. 3. 15. by the Church, he understandeth the House of the living God, as the precedent part of his speech showeth, to wit, If I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, etc. But they alone are verily and indeed the House of God, which believe and love the Truth. S. August. Enchirid. c. 5.6. etc. Donatist. Lib. 7. cap. 50. Wicked people may be called God's House, because of external calling, and visible profession, 2. Tim. 2. 20. Sed non sunt de compage domus, They are not of the frame of the House c Gregor. Moral. Lib. 28. cap. 9 Intra has mensuras sunt omnes electi, extra has omnes Reprobi, etiamsi intra fidei limitem esse videantur. , Heb. 3. 6. August. d. Bapt. Lib. 7. cap. 50. All they which covet earthly things, preferring worldly felicity before God; they which seek their own, and not those things which are jesus Christ's, ad unam Civitatem illam pertinent, quae dicitur Babylonia mystice, & habet Regem Diabolum, belong only to that City, which in a mystery is called Babylon, and hath the Devil the Head. Aug. sup. Psal. 61. Wicked persons d August. c. Don. Lib. 1. cap. 9 & 17. & Lib. 4. c. 4. etc. 7. & Lib. 5. c. 16. & 19 & 24. & 26. & Lib. 6. c. 3. & 24. & Lib. 7. c. 50. Id. c. Petil. Lib. 2. c. 108. Id. Enchir. c. 56. Id. sup. joh. tr. 45. Id. sup. Psal. 47. & 106. Id d. unit. Eccles. c. 19 Id. Ep. 51. Cyprian. Epist. 55. Orig. in Genes. Hom. 1. & 〈◊〉 jerem. Hom. 3. Basil. in Psal. 44. Chrysost. 2. Timoth. Hom. 5. Ambros. in Psal. 35. Hieron. in job. 26. & sup. Ephes. c. 5. Gregor. in Enang. Hom. 38. & Lib. 4. Moral. c. 9 etc. 15. & Lib. 20. c. 11. & Lib. 14. c. 19 & Lib. 16. c. 10. & sup. 5. Psal. Penitent. Bernard. in Cantic. Serm. 68 (saith S. Augustine, Epist. 50.) figuram membri tenent, retain the figure or outward shape of a member, sed revera corpus Domini non sunt, but they are not in truth the body of Christ (August. d. Doct. Christ. Lib. 3. cap. 32.) In corpore Christi non sunt, quod est Ecclesia; They are not in the body of Christ, which is the Church. (August. c. Crescon. Lib. 2. cap. 21.) But they which are not of the Body of Christ, nor of the house of God, really, and in truth, do not constantly preserve, or faithfully deliver Apostolical Traditions; neither are they one, or holy, nor yet such as the Spirit of God infallibly, and always directeth in their public Doctrine. OBSERVAT. V. The qualities of unity, holiness, verity, Apostolical succession, and other the like, are not always found in the true Church equally, or in the same degree and measure of perfection; but according to a latitude, and inequality of intention and remission, and more or less: so that although the sounder part of the Church, hath always the substance of truth, sanctity, and unity; yet this verity of Doctrine, unity of Charity, sanctity of Manners, is greater, larger, and more sincere and perfect in some persons and ages of the Church, than in others. These qualities were in their greatest perfection, when the Apostles themselves lived a Euseb. Hist. Eccles. l. 3. c. 26. Ad illa usque tempora, etc. Ecclesia integra & incorrupta permanserat caeterum postquam sacer Apostolorum Chorus varium vitae exitum & diversa mortis genera, pertulerat, praeterieratque illorum aetas, quibus à Christo donatum erat ut auribus divinam ipsius sapientiam coram acciperent: tunc certe falsa & veteratoria impij erroris conspiratio exordium caepit, idque illorum fraud & astutia qui doctrinam à veritate penitus alienam disseminare laborarent: quique cum nemini Apostolorum amplius vita suppeteret, de caetero jam nudo capite (ut aiunt) sin cero veritatis sermoni falsam & commentitiam doctrinam ex adverso opponere pro viribus 〈◊〉. , they were in great measure, in the ages immediately abutting upon the Apostles: But the holy Fathers complain of the decrease and decay of them in after times b Cyprian. Ep. 8. & d. lapsis num. 4. Chrys. 1. Cor. Hom. 36. & Math. imperf. Hom. 49. Hieron. Esay. c. 24. & sup. Much. c. 7. & sup. Soph. c. 2. Saluian. d. gubernat. Dei l. 3. Greg. Euang. Hom. 17. & sup. Reg. l. 4. : And Papists deplore the extreme diminution of them in their days c Gerson. d. Circumcis. Serm. 1. confid. 1. & d. potest. Eccles. lect. 10. & Epist. Brugis scripta. Aluar. Pelag. d. planct. Eccles. 〈◊〉 Eccles. Concil. Basil. apud 〈◊〉. p. 139. & p. 266. p. 267. & 275. & p. 523. . OBSERVAT. VI. It falleth out sometimes in the outward state of the visible Church, that wicked persons (which are not sound parts of God's house, nor living members of Christ's mystical body, being more in number d Onus Eccles. cap. 43. §. 1. Nunc in Ecclesia copiofior Proh pudor, est numerus malorum quam bonorum, & praevalet impius adversus justum. and greater in power) do possess the chief places of public judicature, and Ecclesiastical government: and being thus exalted, and withal abetted by worldly power, and swarms of time-feruers b Occam. dial. p. 3. tr. 1. l. 3. 〈◊〉. 13. Quando multitudo clericorum, per avaritiam ambitionem, symoniam & adias vias pravas, ad ordines dignitates & beneficia, Ecclesiastica pervenisset, etc. Propter quod procliviores essent clerici, ad assentiendum errori Papae & generalis Concilij, quia humani moris est illum vereri, cuius iudicio & voluntate, nunc erigitur nunc deprimitur. Onus Eccles. c. 42. Et habebant caudas scil. assentatores, vel sequaces similes scorpionum & aculei erant in caudis earum. , whom they advance and honour, to accomplish their own ends: it may hereby fall out, that the outward state of the visible Church, shall be ordered and swayed, according to the lust and will of wicked rulers c Hildegard. part. 2. l. diu. oper. citatur. Onus Eccles. c. 4. §. 5. : And then good men may be disgraced, depressed, and persecuted: the simple, and they which are negligent, d Auentin. annal. Bojor. l. 6. proem. p. 479. Math. Paris: Chron. p. 7. Clerici & ordinati adeo literatura carebant, ut caeteris effet 〈◊〉, qui Grammaticam didicisset. unlearned, and secure, may be deluded, and error and superstition, craftily and covertly be brought in, and that is fulfilled which Gregory saith; Dum mali praepositi, suam contra veritatem honorem exigunt, ab omni rectitudine corda sequentium abducunt e Aug. sup. Psalm. 8. Qui gloriam suam potius quam salutem hominum attenderunt, sine spiritu sancto locuti sunt. : When wicked rulers seek their own glory more than truth, they mislead their followers from all course of righteousness. This happened in the jewish Church, when the Scribes and pharisees and other hypocrites and errants were, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, master-builders, Math. 21.41. And the evil servant beareth rule in the household, and oppresseth his fellow-servants, Matth. 24. 49. Diotrophes excommunicates and usurps according to his own will a Cassand. Consult. p. 929. Ecclesiae, gum. bernatoribus quos aliquando hostes Dei esse contingit, etc. Nam ut inquit August. sunt & intus hostes Dei quorum pectora obsedit, spiritus Antichristi & tamen gerunt spiritualia & divina. : 3. Ep. joh. 9 10. The Arrians in the days of Constantius and Valence did all the former, in the greater part of the Christian world b Hieron. c. Lucif. & sup. Gal. c. 5. Ingenuit totus orbis & se Arianum esse miratus est. Idem. sup. Psal. 133. Ante annos quindecem aut viginti, etc. Omnes Ecclesias has Haeretici possidebant. Idem. Chron. Anno 364. omnes pene toto orbe Ecclesiae, sub nomine pacis & Regis Arianorum consortio polluebantur. Basil. Epist. 17. Nobis jam dicere licet, quod in hoc tempore non sit, neque Princeps, neque Propheta, neque praeses, neque oblatio, neque incensum, neque locus in quo coram Domino possit offerri sacrificium, etc. Athanas. l. ad. solitar. vir. agent. Quae nunc Ecclesia libere Christum adorat? nam si alicubi sunt pij, & Christi studiosi (sunt autem plurimi illi itidem, ut magnus ille Propheta Elias absconduntur, & in speluncas & cavernas terrae sese abstrudunt, aut insolitudine oberrantes, commorantur. 〈◊〉. Lir. c. Haer. c. 6. Arianorum venenum non jam portiunculam quandam sed pene totum orbem contaminaverat: adeo ut prope cunctis latini nominis Episcopis, partim vi partim fraude deceptis, caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur. . The same happened in the Church of Rome, especially after the thousand year, one man usurped over the Christian world, making himself on earth, chief and sole commander over things divine and humane a Auentin. annal. Bojor lib. 5. pa. 447. Gregorius septimus qui & Hildebrandus, etc. Primus contra morem majorum, contempta Imperatoris authoritate pontificatum maximum occupavit: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sibi 〈◊〉 esse à Christo, se 〈◊〉; ut liberet ligare & soluere posse, etc. Ibid. 〈◊〉 Imperium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quod successores per 450. continenter annos invito mundo, invitis Imperatoribus adeo duxere, ut inferos superos, in seruiturem redegerint, 〈◊〉; sub jugum miserint, atque cuncta fulmine perterritent: Quo bruta, tellus & vaga 〈◊〉: Quo Styx & 〈◊〉 horrida 〈◊〉 sedes Athlanteusq, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. : his power was so exorbitant and boundless, that he trod upon the neck of kings b Nancler. Generate. 40. summus pentifex Imperatoris collum pede 〈◊〉, etc. Math. Paris. Chron. p. 223. Papa definivit, ut rex Anglorum johannes, à solio regni deponeretur, & alius, Papa procurante succederes qui dignior haberetur. Ad hujus quoque sententiae executionem sctipsit Dominus Papa potentissimo Regi Francorum Phillipo, quatenus in remissionem omnium suorum peccatorum hunc laborem assumeret, etc. Papir. Masson. d. Episcop. vibis l. 5. in vit. Bonifacij 8. Saunder. d. visib. Monarch. Tam sacerdotalis quam regia potestas communicata est pastoribus Ecclesia. , throning and dethroning, crowning and decrowning them, as himself listed, his dominion was so absolute and vast, as that no man might reprove or withstand him c 〈◊〉. 40. c. 6. Si Papa, etc. jacob. Graph. Decis. Aur. part. 1. l. 2. Omnia regit disponit & judicat, pro ut sibi placet, etc. Apud. eum est pro ratione voluntas, & quod ei placet legis habeat vigorem. 〈◊〉. Ancona. sum. d. Eccles. q. 63. ar. 1. Magis ligat praeceptum Papae quam ligamen legis naturae, etc. Baron. Anno 373. num. 21. ut plane apareat ex arbitrio dependisse Rom. Pontificis fidei decreta sancita, & sancita mutare. . All men were reputed heretics or schismatics, which would not say and swear as he commanded d Fazel. d. reb. 〈◊〉. l. 8. c. 2. Haereseos incusatur & damnatur Fredericus, quod inter alia Romanum pontificem, ipsum anathematis vinculo astringere non potuisse dixerit. Abbas. Vsperg. Anno 1012. p. 241. : in Synods and Counsels, causes were transacted according to his will e Bosius. d. sig. Eccles. l. 5. c. 9 Did. Nugnus. in 3. Thom. Addit. q. 20. ar. 3. Bellarm. d. Concil. l. 2. c. 11. Greg. Val. Tom. 3. d. 1. q. 1. p. 7. pa. 365. 〈◊〉. Bannes' 22. q. 1. ar. 10. fo. 70. : and remission of sins, and right to life eternal, were entailed to his chair f Math. Paris. Chron. pa. 223. Quatenus in remissionem omnium suorum peccatorum hunc laborem assumeret. Bell. d. Eccles. l. 3. c. 5. . Jesuit. This principle is consequent upon the former: and out of it, six things may be clearly proved. First, that there is always a true Church of Christ in the world: for if there be no means for men to know that Scriptures and other substantial Articles came from Christ and his Apostles, and so consequently from God, but the Tradition of the Church; then there must needs be in all ages a Church, receiving and delivering these Traditions: else men in some ages since Christ should have been destitute of the ordinary means of salvation, because they had not means to know assuredly the substantial Articles of Christianity, without assured faith whereof no man is saved. ANSWER. By true Church, we may understand, either an universal maltitude of Believers, totally in respect of all persons, or distributively, in regard of them which principally rule and command, free from error in public doctrine: Or else a choice and select number of Believers, living either in the common fellowship of the general visible Church, or united in particular Congregations, by themselves, teaching and professing right Faith in all capital points, and ready to embrace all divine Truth, when the same is manifested unto them. If the name of true Church be taken in the first sense, or for an hierarchical Church, wherein the principal commanders teach and maintain truth entirely and sincerely, than the Proposition, to wit, There is always a true Church of Christ in the world, is denied; for it is possible, that the greater Prelates, to wit, Popes, Cardinals, mitred Bishops, and Abbots (of which the hierarchical Church principally consisteth) shall be reprobates a Aliaco. l. d. Reform. Rom. Eccl. tit. d. ref. relig. Ad hunc statum venisse Ecclesiam ut non sit digna regi nisi à reprobis. , blind guides b Occam. Dial. p. 1. l. 2. c. 28. A tempore Innocent. tertij non fuerunt aliqui pontifices in sacrarum literarum peritia excellentes. Alphons. Castro. c. Haeres. l. 1. c. 4. Cum constet plures 〈◊〉 adeo illiteratos esse, ut Grammaticam penitus ignorent: Printed by Badius. Anno 1533. , a generation of vipers, wolves in sheep's clothing, and such as being armed with the title of the Church, persecute the true Church c Leo. Epist. 81. Ecclesiae nomine armamini & contra Ecclesiam dimicatis. Cyprianus. d. simplicit. Praelat. Diabolus excogitavit novam fraudem, ut sub ipso nominis Christiani titulo fallat incautos. . And that this is possible, it appeareth: First, by the example of the archrulers of the jewish Church, which in some ages, corrupted true Religion, and persecuted the servants of God, 2. Chron. 36. 14. Moreover all the chief of the Priests, and the people, transgressed very much, after all the abominations of the heathen, and polluted the house of the Lord, etc. v. 16. They mocked the messengers of God, and dospised his word, and misused his Prophets, etc. Read 2. Kings. 16. 11, 16. jerem. 2.8. Esay. 56.10. Malach. 2.8. jerem. 20.1. & 23.1. 2. Machab. 4.10. Ezek. 34.4. Mark. 6.35. Math. 3.7. Matth. 23. 13. Luk. 12. 1. Matth. 16. 12. john. 10. 8. Ezek. 22. 26. Secondly, the same appeareth to be true, both by the example of the greater Prelates of the Asian Churches, which corrupted true Doctrine and worship, and provoked the Almighty so much, that he removed their Candlestick out of his place: and also by the example of the West Church itself, wherein Popes and greater Prelates, have been illiterate, Monsters, Devil's incarnate, Apostates, men defiled with all wickedness, and abominable sins (as Papists themselves report d Genebrard. Chron. l. 4. anno 991. p. 553. per annos ferè 150. Pontifices circiter 50, etc. à virtute majorum prorsus defecerunt, job. Sarisbur. Policrat. l. 6. c. 24. Rom. Ecclesia quae matter 〈◊〉 Ecclesiarum est, se non tam matrem 〈◊〉 quam novercam: sedent in ea Scribae & Pharisei, etc. 〈◊〉. in Benedicto 4. Hac monstra, haec portenta, à quibus ambitione, & largitione sanctissima Petri sedes occupata est. Concil. Const. sess. 11. ar. 5. Foex vitiorum, 〈◊〉 incarnarus. Fascic. Temp. anno 1424. jam con, cum sci, de conscientia abrasis, solum entia sponsam Christi gubernare videmus: personas videlicet, conscientia scientiaque carentes, & velut entia insensibilia. 〈◊〉. d. Casal. cited by Onus Eccles. c. 43. n. 9 Carnalis jam Ecclesia dicitur nova Babylon & meretrix magna, quia in ea, utpote in pluribus & potioribus membris, ordo virtutum per deordinationem vitiorum 〈◊〉 est confusus, nec non sui sponsi jesu amor turpiter adulteratus & eius cultus nequiter neglectus, modica quidem grana tritici, sunt in immenso palearum cumulo, quoniam instorum Spiritus hoc tempore à malis 〈◊〉 usque adeò, ut prae multitudine perversorum justus cogarur seruire Babiloni in plerisque 〈◊〉 actibus, Ecclesia 〈◊〉 quasi ancilla facta est, 〈◊〉 quondam silij Israel propter peccata multorum, capiti in Babilone seruire compulsi sunt. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. d. planct. Eccles. lib. 2. ar. 5. Nunc autem ex quo in Ecclesijs sicut in Romano Imperio crevit 〈◊〉: perijt lex de Sacerdotibus & visio de Propheta: & ad literam hodie in Ecclesia deficit Spiritus Prophetiae: &c adimpletur quod scribitur, 3. Reg. 22. Egrediar & cro spiritus mendea in 〈◊〉 omnium Prophecarum. .) And concerning Doctrine, it is evident, by comparing their decrees with the Scriptures, and the ancient Fathers and Counsels, that they are in many things departed from the truth. And Occam a Occam. dial. part. 1. 〈◊〉. c. 26. 〈◊〉. Disp. cum 〈◊〉. Si coire nequeant partes erroris cum virtute, multo minus convenerint veritas & vicium. Origen. in Math. 〈◊〉. Haec alterutrum se sequuntur & non seperantur ab in vicem, sermo mundus in anima, & vita irreprehensibilis. saith: Omnis congregatio quae potest errare contra bonos mores, potest errare contra fidem: quia mali mores excacant intellectum: Because evil manners blind the judgement, therefore every assembly which may err notoriously in manners, may err against the Faith. But if, by true Church, we understand a number of Believers, smaller or greater, teaching and professing right Faith, in all substantial and capital points, and willing to embrace and teach all other divine verity, when the same is made known unto them: than it is granted, that there is a true Church of Christ always in the world. And this kind of Believers, do either teach and profess their Faith and Religion in congregations apart, or in the external fellowship and common society of corrupt Believers: as appeareth by the example of the jews, in the days of their wicked Kings and Priests: and in the time of the Pharisees. The open and public ministry of Priests was corrupt in those days, yet God had a remnant of people, and small Church, in the midst of this blindness, Esay 1.9. In the other part of this Section, the jesuit produceth an Argument to prove, That there is always a true Church of Christ in the world. The sum of his Argument is: Christ never leaveth the world destitute of the ordinary means of salvation: and people cannot have the means of salvation, but from the true Church; and by the Tradition thereof, by which they receive the Scriptures, and the rule of Faith, to guide them in the exposition of the Scriptures. ANSWER. It is lost labour to spend time in proving against us, that there is always in the world a true Church a 〈◊〉. d. Eccles. l. 3. c. 13. Notandum est multos ex nostris, tempus terrere dum probant absolutè Ecclesiam non posse deficere, nam Caluinus & caeteri Haeretici id concedunt. Gerbard. loc. come. 〈◊〉. 5. d. Eccles. num. 107. Ecclesiam perpetuo durasse & perpetuo duraturum esse extra controversiam ponimus. : for we have ever acknowledged this. The thing that we deny, is, that although there be always in the world a Church, the 〈◊〉 members whereof are free from damnable and 〈◊〉 error; yet there is not always a true Church in the world whose commanding Prelates are free from all error, or 〈◊〉 part of it from malicious error. Secondly, It is granted that Christ doth not according to his antecedent will, leave the world destitute of the means of Salvation, Math. 23.37. 1. Timoth. 2.4. 2. Pet. 3.9. But notwithstanding this will of Christ a 〈◊〉. Orth. fid. lib. 2. ca 29. etc. Manich. Aquinas p. 1. q. 19 ar. 6. Bonauent. 1. q. 47. art. Vnic. Scot 1. d. 46. q. Vnic. Occam Richardus. Greg. 〈◊〉. Durand. Gabrul. 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉. d. Auxil. dips. 34. 〈◊〉. in 1. p. 〈◊〉. q. 19 〈◊〉. 56. num. 17.18. , many people may be actually destitute of the means of Salvation, by the negligence of Preachers b Gre. li. 5. Epist. 59 Anglorum gentem, Deo annuente velle fieri Christianam, sed Sacerdotes qui in vicino sunt, pastoralem ergà 〈◊〉 sollicitudinem non habete. , and through their own negligence or malice, contemning or repelling the said means, when they are offered unto them, Acts 13.46. Thirdly, A corrupt visible Church may truly deliver some parts of sacred Truth, and among other verities, it may deliver the Apostles Tradition touching the Canon of the Scripture, and also the rule of Faith contained in the Apostles Creed. This appeareth by the Churches of the Nestorians at this day, and also of old by the jewish Church, which at such times as it was Idolatrous and unsound, preserved the Canon of the Scriptures of the Old Testament, and by transcribing and reading, delivered the whole Text thereof truly, Rom. 3.2. and Acts 15.21. Fourthly, If we should grant (which is false, as appear by the Greek Church) that there was in some ages past, no other Church but the Roman, and the adheres thereof, and affirm withal that the chief Prelates thereof, and their faction, maintained sundry erroneous and superstitious doctrines; yet because all Doctors and people (living within the external communion of that Church) were not equally poisoned and surprised with error c Occam. Dial. p. 1. li. 5. c. 28. Quod si consilium in Haeresin labererur, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Catholici, qui occultè vel publicè 〈◊〉 expediret, auderent fidem defendere orthodoxam. Ille autèm qui reprobatis filijs earnalibus Abrahae potest de lapidibus suscitare filios Abrahae spirituales, potensest & omnibus in generade 〈◊〉 convenientibus in 〈◊〉 lapsis, imò 〈◊〉 mundi, & potentibus secularibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 damnatis, de lapidibus, id est, 〈◊〉 rudibus & abiectis panperibus & despectis Catholicis, Dei filios suscitare. Frans. Picus. Mirand. Theorem. 23. Hoc autèm verbo pernitiosè usi in 〈◊〉 sumus, ob id quod 〈◊〉 quempiam errare Deus (occulto suo ) id 〈◊〉, adest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 voluntatis viris divina protectio, quae noxium peccati virus 〈◊〉 à conscientia, immunes & illaesas sanctorum virorum animas custodit & seruat. Multi enim erroribus & de mille annis & de iteratione Baptismi maculati, beatitudine tamen donati sunt, & ab Ecclefia celebrati 〈◊〉, Papias Episoopus, Pictaviensis, Irinaeus Lugdunensis; & alij. , but many among them firmly believing all fundamental 〈◊〉, were 〈◊〉 by adieu out and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some other points. It followeth not that the world should be destitutes of all means of salvation: for these founder members, lining in the visible Roman Church, might deliver the main and capital Articles of Christianity, and their ignorance and error in other matters, was in those days pardonable, because they offended in simplicity, and were 〈◊〉 unawares. Jesuit. Secondly, this Church must be always visible and conspicious, for the Traditions of the Church must ever be famous, glorious, and notoriously known in the world, that a Christian may say with S. Augustine, I believe nothing but the consent of Nations and Countries, and most celebrious fame. Now if the Church were hidden in secret, invisible in any age, than her Traditions could not be Doctrines, ever illustriously known, but rather obscure, hidden, Apochriphall, Ergo the Church the mistress pillar and foundation of Truth must be always visible and conspicuous, which if need be, may be further proved most evidently. ANSWER. The Church according to the Popish Tenet, is said to be Visible, because it always hath such an outward form and appearance in the eyes of the world, as that people are able by sense or common reason to know the same materially, and to distinguish it from other societies of infidels and Heretics a Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. fid. pa. 1. du. 1. c. 2. Si igitùr nequè ad sensum Ecclesia potest latere, consequens est, ut in omnium occulos incurrat, Et proinde quod veritas illius, non solum percipiatur ment sed etiam sensu. . And by the Church in this question, they understand, a company of believers, professing Christian Faith without error, submitting themselves to the Bishop of Rome, as to their universal Visible head b Azer. Moral. 〈◊〉. part. 2. li. 5. c. 〈◊〉. Ecclesia dicitur visibilis, quia in unius, & ciusdem fidei professione consistit, sub uno capite visibili, videlicet, summo Christi Vicario Rom. pontifice, etc. . And they affirm concerning the said Church, that it may at all times be sensibly known and discerned c Stapl. Rel. c. 1. q. 3. ar. 1. pa. 33. Aspectabilis & sensibus 〈◊〉. Brellar. d. Eccles. li. 3. ca 15. Greg. Val. 〈◊〉. 3. pa. 88 Ecclesiam omni tempore visibilem, id est, cognitu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Jb. pa. 185. Euidentèr potest 〈◊〉 seculo conspici & 〈◊〉 & quasi digito demonstrari. , and that the place of abode, and the principal members thereof are openly known, and the external actions of the same, to wit, Preaching, Praying, administration of 〈◊〉 may be always heard and seen, and that the same is perpetually sensible and 〈◊〉, like unto earthly kingdoms and common weals a . Some few of them acknowledge, that it is possible for the same, for some short season, to loose part of the external amplitude and glory, and to be overshadowed with clouds and storms of Heresies, Schisms, and Persecutions b 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 3. pa. 187. 〈◊〉. Relect. p. 30. : but yet they all 〈◊〉 that even in those tempestuous seasons, it is conspicuous to the world, in regard of the principal members c & turgidis granis est perpetuò 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉. , and that the common and ordinary condition of the true Church is to be amply, famously, and in a glorious manner visible d 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. pa. 111. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. fid. vol. 1. dub. 1. c. 1. illustrior. . But our Tenet is, First, That the true Church abideth oftentimes in persecution, either of 〈◊〉 and external enemies, or of domestical foes e Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 fuit etc. Altera persecutio fraudulenta etc. 〈◊〉 superest per 〈◊〉 ventura, qua 〈◊〉 est perniciosius quoniàm & 〈◊〉 & fraudulenta erit. Bernard Serm. d. 〈◊〉. S. Pauli. Videbatur 〈◊〉 cessasse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. sed 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 est, ipsi. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, qui ab 〈◊〉 Christiani 〈◊〉. Amici 〈◊〉 Deus & proximi 〈◊〉 te 〈◊〉, etc. Jd. in Psal. Qui habserm. 6. & sup. Cantic. serm. 33. . And in time of persecution, by either of 〈◊〉 enemies, it may be reputed a false Church, or impious Sect by the multitude f 〈◊〉. in 〈◊〉 c. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christiani genus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 novae & 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. annal. li. 15. , and consequently be unknown to, the wicked world, under the Notion of holy and true: and in such persecutions the love of many may wax cold, Math. 24.12. and iniquity and infidelity so abound, Luc. 17.26. & cap. 18.8. that the number of right believers shall be few, and the same may be compelled to exercise their religion in 〈◊〉 g 〈◊〉. in Luc. li. 10. c. 21. 〈◊〉. & Lacus, & Carceres & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in illis . Symbol. ar. 2. pa. 378. Cryptis, etc. 18. c. 7. numb. 64. Cultus divinus & iuge sacrificium, 〈◊〉 temporis, cessent in 〈◊〉 & patentibus 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 in abditis & 〈◊〉. . Secondly, We deny that a natural man is able infallibly to judge and discern by sense and common reason, or human prudence only, which is the true Church of Christ h sup. 3. c. . , whereunto every one that will be saved must unite and join himself, 1. Cor. 2.11.14. Now the reasons for which we reject or limit the Popish Doctrine, concerning the Church's visibility, are these. , a 〈◊〉. 1.8.1. Thess. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Lib. 3. principalitatem, necesse est 〈◊〉 omnem Ecclesiam, ho est eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua semper ab eis qui ab 〈◊〉 est . and not what the same must be perpetually. Some teach what the same is by outward calling, and consequently what in right, by precept and duty, it ought to be. Some b Matth. 5. 18. 〈◊〉. Lirin. c. 〈◊〉. c. Sedula & canta apud se dogmatum custos, etc. Texts of holy Scripture describe the inward and spiritual beauty of the sounder part of the Church, by Allegories and similitudes, taken from external and worldly pomp and glory: c Psalm. 45. 9 Esay 35.2. & Esay Some places show what 〈◊〉 ought to perform, when the public and common Ministry of the Church is incorrupt, and ordinary Pastors in Doctrine and Discipline proceed according to the Ordinance of Christ. d Lastly, some of the Father's living in Ages wherein the outward face of the Church was externally glorious, & not foreseeing what was imminent and future, might probably suppose, that the same should always retain the like beauty. And yet S. Augustine, who because of the Donatists, speaketh most largely in this kind, e August. c. Crescon. lib. 2. c. 36. etc. Petil. lib. a. c. 104. & contra Faust. lib. 13. c 13. & 〈◊〉 unit. 〈◊〉. cap. 25. useth words of limitation and exception, and affirmeth, that the splendour of the Church in time of Persecution may be eclipsed, and the glory thereof overshadowed. f Secondly, The Arguments against the glorious and perpetual visibility of the true Church (according to our adversary's Tenet) are weighty. First, The best and worthiest members of the said Church may be persecuted, disgraced, and condemned as Heretics, and impious persons: as appeareth by the example of g Athanasius, Hilarius, Ambrose, etc. And this may be done by great multitudes, and by learned persons, and by such as are potent in worldly and Ecclesiastical power: and in such times the true Church, under the notion of a true Church, cannot be generally and gloriously visible. Secondly, The prime Rulers and Commanders in the visible Church do at some times by Ambition, and other enormous Vices, become enemies unto Truth, h 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Planct. Eccles. lib. 1. ar. 5. Principes Ecclesiae sunt exercitus daemonum, cum deberent esse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Lira, 〈◊〉. 16. Multi principes & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & alij a side, etc. . as our adversaries themselves acknowledge, concerning all other Bishops, but only the Roman and his adheres; and that the Roman Popes and Prelates have departed from right Faith, and exceeded others in monstrous ambition, and wickedness, is reported by many amongst themselves. Now when these Master-builders fall, innumerable multitudes of inferior rank, for hope, favour, fear, and other humane and carnal respects, concur with them; a Occam, Dial. p. 1. Lib. 7. cap. 48. Fabulas & errores Papae Haeretici, multitudo praecipue magistrorum ambitiosorum, & 〈◊〉 sequitur. and then the number of Infidels, which remain without the Church, being added to the Church malignant; the total sum of both amounteth to a great number, and in comparison of them, right believers may be few, b Onus Ecclesiae, c. 43. §. 1. Nunc in Ecclesia copiosior (proh dolour) est numerus 〈◊〉 quam bonorum, & praevalet impius adversus bonum. Aluar. Petag. d. Planct. Eccles. li. 2. art. 5. Mistica Syon Ecclesia caligine peccati & ertoris & ignorantiae 〈◊〉, quae tantis muneribus in Ecclesia primitiva, 〈◊〉 suo sponso ditabatur, etc. Ad terram de coelo proiectam conspicimus quia quasi inhabitata & deserta est: Et fi qui supersunt cultores, quasi Arabes & Saraceni sunt. and their reputation in the world so mean, as that they shall not be generally known the true Church. And if they be not known, and esteemed a true Church by the greatest part of the world, than they are not famously visible at all times, as our adversary maintains. Thirdly, The Scriptures foretell a coming and reign of Antichrist, a large Apostasy and revolt from the right Faith, a rarity of true believers, and decay of Charity, a flying of the true Church into the Wilderness, and grievous persecutions of God's Elect, before the final consummation of the World. 2. Thess. 2.3. etc. 1. Tim. 4.1. 2. Tim. 3.1. etc. Luc. 18.8. Matth. 24. 12, 24. Reuel. 12.6. c Aluar. Pelag. d. 〈◊〉. Eccles. Lib. 2. art. 5. Nunc autem ex quo in Ecclesia sicut in Rome, Imperio crevit avaritia, perijt Lex de Sacerdotibus, & visie de Prophetis, & ad terram defecit hodie in Ecclesia spiritus Prophetiae, & 〈◊〉 quod scribitur. 3. Reg. 22. Egrediar & 〈◊〉 spiritus mendax in ore omnium Prophetarum. But such a perpetual visibility of the Church as Romists imagine, is not compatible with the precedent Predictions. But the jesuit saith, Jesuit. Because the Tradition of the Church must be at all times famous, glorious, and notoriously known in the World: therefore the true Church, which is the Teacher, Pillar, and Foundation of Tradition, must be at all times famously visible to the eye of the World. ANSWER. Neither the Antecedent nor Consequent of this Argument are firm. It is not always true, that those things are visible, which make other things famous, glorious, and notoriously known; for that which is innisible to the eye of the World, may cause other things to be famous: as we see in God himself, in Christ, in the holy Apostles, etc. Also persons living in disgrace, and persecution, may by writing from Exile, Prison, or unknown Habitations, make Divine Truth notoriously known, to the making of the enemies thereof inexcusable, and the conversion of others, as appear in Athanasius. Secondly, The Antecedent is false: If the jesuit, by the word (Must) understand that, which by an immutable providence of the Almighty shall infallibly in all ages be fulfilled; it is not decreed by the Almighty, that the Doctrine and Tradition of Divine Verity shall in all Ages be generally famous, and notoriously known to the World; the same must always (in matters substantial and necessary) be sufficiently known to some part of the World. But many people, for sundry Ages, have been ignorant of Christ a Prosp. d. voc. Gent. Lib. 2. cap. 6. Acosta, d. Proc. Indor. Salur. Li. 1. c. 5. pa. 133. August. d. confens. Euang. li. 1. cap. 31. Per multos annos Ecclesia, quae futura erat in omnibus gentibus in 〈◊〉 suis, hoc est in sanctis suis, non 〈◊〉, etc. Et d. unit. Eccles. cap. 14. 〈◊〉. d. Pontif. Rom. l. 3. ca 4. Antechristus nondum venit, quia Euangelium nondum suit 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 mundo. , and of the whole Tradition and Doctrine of the Apostles, and a large tract of the World remaineth at this present day in Heathenish and damnable ignorance b Concil. Lateran. sub. Leo. 10. Sess. 8. jacet desolata Afia, iacet Africa, iacet AEgyptus, ac bona Europae 〈◊〉 deserta, abiecta fine lege, sine moribus, sine 〈◊〉 Christianae legis consortio, p. 599. 〈◊〉, to. 4. ; and consequently, to a large part of the World, Tradition is not in a famous and glorious manner notoriously known. Jesuit. Thirdly, The Church is Apostolical, and that apparently descending from the Apostolical Sea, by succession of Bishops, Aug. li. d. util. Cred. c. 17. usque ad confessionem generis humani, even to the acknowledgement of humane kind, as S. Augustine speaketh. ANSWER. The true visible Church is named Apostolical, not because of local and personal succession of Bishops (only or principally) but because it retaineth the Faith and Doctrine of the holy Apostles, Eph. 2. 20. a Ambros. Hugo Lira, in Comment. sup. Fundamentum Apostol. 1. c. sup. Doctrinam. Reuel. 21.14. b Albert. Com. Apocal. cap. 21. Fundamenta, etc. 〈◊〉 sunt super quorum fidem, & doctrinam 〈◊〉 Ecclesia fundata est. Tertullian. d. Prascript. cap. 32. affirmeth c Ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 provocabunur ab aliis 〈◊〉 quae licet nullum ex Apostolis aut Apostolicis, Authorem suum proserant, ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quae denique quotidie instituuntur tamen in cadem side conspirantes, non minus Apostolicae 〈◊〉 pro 〈◊〉 Doctrinae. , That Churches which are able to produce none of the Apostles, or other Apostolical men for their first planters, are notwithstanding Apostolical, for consent of Faith, and consanguinity of Doctrine. And many learned Papists, ancient and modern, say a Cordub. Arma. fid. q. 1. prop. 2. Dicitur Apostolica, quia fundata est in doctrina Apostosorum, quo ad fidem legem & Sacramenta, neque aliam contrariam doctrinam habet, Eph. 2. 20. Occam. Dial. pa. 1. li. 5. c. 24. 〈◊〉. to. 1. serm, in Concil. Generali. p. 369. 〈◊〉. summa. d. Ecclesia l. 1. c. 18. 〈◊〉. moral. Institut. p. 2. l. 5. c. 21. The Church is called Apostolical, because it is grounded upon the Doctrine of the Apostles, in respect of Faith, Laws, and Sacraments. But personal or local succession only, and in itself, maketh not the Church Apostolical, because hirelings and wolves may lineally succeed lawful and orthodox Pastors, Act. 20.29, 30. Even as sickness succeedeth health, and darkness light, and a tempest fair weather, as Gregory Nazianzen affirmeth. Orat. d. laud. Athanasijs b Nazian. Orat. 21. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pa. 377. . That which is common and separable, cannot of itself demonstrate the true Church. And the notes of the Church must be proper and inseparable, agreeing to all times, to every true Church (as Bellarmine c Bel. d. Eccles. l. 4. c. 2. Notae debent esse propriae non communes. 2. notiores ca re cujus sunt notae. 3. inseparabiles à vera Ecclesia. affirmeth.) Also, the same must be so conspicuous, as that they cannot easily be pretended by Adversaries d Stapl. Rel. c. 1. q. 4. ar. 5. p. 114. Notae debent esse ita perspicuae ut nec ab Aduersarijs facile praetexi queant, nec ullo modo dubiae, aut controversae sunt. 〈◊〉 confess. c. 20. Notae quibus omnis de Ecclesia penes quos ea sit dubitatio tolli possit, ita Ecclesiae propriae ut eas sibi nequaquam usurpare possint 〈◊〉. , or be at all controverted or doubtful. But personal succession may be found in a false Church, as appeareth by the jewish Church, in the time of the Pharisees, and by the Churches of the East in the days of the Arrians: and our Adversaries affirm the Greek Church to be unsound, notwithstanding it is apparently descended from the Apostles e Niceph. Chron. l. 8. c. 6. Stapl. princip. Doctr. l. 13. c. 16. Graecae Ecclesiae ab ipsis Apostolorum fundamentis personalem successionem demonstrare possunt. Anton. Perez. vol. 1. Du. 24. c. 14. p. 70. Baron. An. 44. nu. 12. ex ep. Agapeti. Horant. loc. l. 6. c. 7. Turrian. Resp. ad Sadael p. 124. , by a lineal succession of Bishops. Cardinal Bellarmine f Bellarm. d. Eccles. lib. 4. c. 6. Argumentum à successione legitima adfertur à nobis precipue ad probandam non esse Ecclesiam, ubi non est haec successio, quod quidem evidens est: ex quo tamen non colligitur necessariò ibi esse Ecclesiam ubi est successio. perceiving the weight of the former Argument, departeth from the common opinion of other Papists, saying: That although personal succession alone, or by itself, is not a proper note of a true Church, yet the absence thereof, proveth a nullity of the Church in them which want it. But if this be so, then personal and local succession must be expuged out of the Calendar of Church's notes: for all proper notes argue and demonstrate their subject, both 〈◊〉 and negatively: also, they demonstrate the same of themselves, without the assistance of other things. If therefore external succession proveth not a true Church, except right Faith be concurring; and if (as Bellarmine teacheth) it rather serveth to prove there is not the true Church where it wanteth, than to argue a true Church where it is: then the same is not proper and convertible, and consequently it is no essential mark, because to be proper and convertible, are of the being of notes, according to the Cardinals a Supra. Bellarm. Stapl. 〈◊〉 lit. a. own description. It is likewise remarkable, that the ancient Fathers b Iren. l. 4. c. 43. lis qui in Ecclesijs sunt Presbyteris 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, qui successione habent 〈◊〉 Apostolis quicunque cum Episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris acceperunt. Id. cap. 44. Ad haerere his qui & Apostolorum Doctrinam custodiunt, & cum Praesbyterij ordine sermonem sanum & conversationem sine offensa praestant. Tertul. c. Haeres. c. 32. Ipsa doctrina eorum cum Apostolica comparata ex diversitate & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, neque Apostolici alicuius Authoris effe, neque Apostoli. do not only or principally understand personal succession, when they mention succession in their writings: because they argue affirmatively from succession, and not negatively only. Therefore Romists in this disputation, shall do well to begin with the questions which concern Doctrine, and prove that they have succession of Doctrine, in all those Articles wherein they oppose other Churches, before they mention local and personal succession: but the manner of these men is to observe a contrary proceeding, and from the latter to conclude the former, c Baron. Anno 31. 〈◊〉. 52. (Ait) magnam esse successionis vim cum ex cujusuis hominis qui compos sit rationis sententia certum exploratumque habeatur illic esse legitimum 〈◊〉, ipsum inquam Catholicam Ecclesiam apud quam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exordio est legitimè conseruata. Hosius confess. c. 28. Didicimus jam ibi esse Apostolicam Ecclesiam ubi est Doctrina Apostolorun, porro Doctrina Apostolorum ibi est, ubi est legitima Episcoporú successio, etc. Idem. c. Brent. l. 2. p. 76. Ibi est Ecclesia ubi est legitima Sacerdotum & Episcoporum successio & ab hac successione semper veritas est petita. 〈◊〉 Defence. Cath. p. 991. which is against good reason, and against the Custom and manner of the ancient Fathers d Aug. d. unit. Eccles. c. 16. Sed utrùm ipsi Ecclesiam teneant, non nisi divinarum Canonicis libris ostendant, quia nec nos proptereà dicimus nobis credere oportere, quòd in Ecclesia Christi sumus quiaipsam quam tenemus commendavit Milevitanus optatus, vel Mediolanensis Ambrose, vel alij inumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi, aut quià nostrorum Collegarum Cóncilijs ipsa predicata est. . Jesuit. For how can the Tradition of Christian doctrine be eminently and notoriously Apostolical, if the Church delivering the same, hath not a manifest and conspicuous pedigree or derivation from the Apostles, which is a convincing argument used by Saint Augustine; how can we think that we 〈◊〉 received manifestly Christ, if we 〈◊〉 not also 〈◊〉 manifestly his Church? It is a Principle of Philosophy, Propter quod unumquodque tale & illud magis. But the name of Christ his glory, his virtue and miracles, are to the world famously known from age to age, by reason of the Church, and her preaching, that in her first Pastors saw them with their eyes. Ergo, This Church must needs be more famous, more illustrious, as able to give fame unto the being, and Doctrine, and actions of Christ. ANSWER. I have showed in the former Section, that the visible Church is principally called Apostolical, because it embraceth the doctrine of the holy Apostles. And every Church is Apostolical, so far forth only, as it consenteth with the Apostles in Doctrine, Sacraments, Invocation, and in that which is substantial in Ecclesiastical policy. And in a precedent Section I have declared, That the visible Church may at some times be more or less Apostolical, holy, etc. But it is not at any time simply or principally Apostolical, because it hath external personal succession. Occam, a famous Schooleman, and some others with him affirm, That a true and Apostolical Church may consist of a few lay people, a Occam. Dial. p. 1. l. 4. c. 9 & l. 5. c. 3. etc. 8. etc. 23. and if all the Prelates and Clerks throughout the world should become heretical, God may raise up Pastors, either extraordinarily, b Ibid. c. 28. Ille qui reprobatis filijs carnalibus Abrahae potest de lapidibus suscitare Filios Abrahae spirituales, potens est & omnibus ad generale Concilium convenientibus in 〈◊〉 lapsis, imo omnibus Clericis mundi falsitate Haeretica 〈◊〉, de 〈◊〉 id est Laicis rudibus & abjectis pauperibus, & despectis Catholicis Dei filios suscitare. 〈◊〉 enim in 〈◊〉 (〈◊〉 & religiosis ac magistratibus repudiatis) fidem primitus fundavit Catholicam, ita & omnibus 〈◊〉 & potentibus datis in reprobum sensum, potest dare pauperes simplices illiteratos & rusticos, in 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae Orthodoxae. or else heretical Bishop's 〈◊〉 Pastors, the Church may be reform by them. But to the Argument I answer as followeth c Ib. c. 30. Si tota multitudo Clericorum haereticaretur, vel Ecclesia careat praedictis, de facto tamen si remanserint alij Clerici haeretici, possunt aliqui Catholici ordinari, ab eyes, &c quibus ordinatis possunt omnia predicta reparari. . First, if the same were wholly granted, nothing could be concluded against the Church of England from it, because the Bishops and Pastors of this Church, are able to exhibit a Pedigree or derivation, both of their Ministry and Doctrine from the Apostles. 1. Of Ministry, in that they have for substance, the same descent of external Ordination which the Roman Church hath. 2. Of Doctrine, because they maintain the Primitive Faith, and accord in the same with the soundest part of the Catholic Church in all ages. And where we may seem to descent from the Ancient, the same is either in things humane and adiaphorous a 〈◊〉 Dial. p. 1. li. 2. ca 4. Sancti aliqua tanquam Catholica quaedam tanquam ad fidem necessariò spectantia, nonnulla verò tanquam probata tradiderunt. , or in matters which were not fully discussed, or in points which were not delivered by an unanimous consent, or in things which are reproved by plain demonstration of holy Scripture b 〈◊〉. Carmeld. 〈◊〉. ca 7. Quamuis sanctorum Doctorum scripta, extrà Canonem Biblie sunt legenda, etc. Cum debita 〈◊〉; non tamen sunt 〈◊〉 firmae authoritatis & immobilitatis, quin liceat 〈◊〉 contradicere, & circà ea dubitare ubi per Scripturam sanctam evidentèr & expressè non probatur, etc. , and wherein the Fathers permit liberty of dissenting, and the Papists themselves take the like liberty c Aug. d. pers. Sanctorum ca 21. Neminem velim sic amplecti mea omnia, ut me sequatur, nisi in eyes quibus me non errare perspexerit, epist. 48. Hoc genus literarum ab authoritate Canonis distinguen dum est, & epist. 111. & epist. 112. Nolo authoritatem 〈◊〉 sequaris, etc. & proem. li. 3. d. Trinit. job. Driedo. d. Dogm. Eccles. lib. 4. part. 5. c. 6. Nequè ipsi omnes suas sententias suis libris dictas tradiderunt nobis, tanquam fidei sententias dicentes quidem vel per 〈◊〉, vel per opinionem, vel per rationem, solum ipsis probabilem, ac verisimilem super rebus gestis innixi interdùm solis hominum quorundam testimonijs quos crediderunt veraces, & tamèn potuisse falli & fallere. . Secondly, the jesuits Interrogation (How can the Tradition of Christian Doctrine be eminently and notoriously Apostolical, if the Church delivering the same hath not a manifest and perspicuous pedigree or derivation from the Apostles?) is answered: this may be performed two ways. 1. By the history and monuments of the Primative Church, whose descent and pedigree from the Apostles was perspicuous. 2. The same may be made manifest by the Scriptures of the Apostles, which are divine and authentical Records of all Apostolical Doctrine, and contain in themselves many lively and effectual Arguments, proving to such as read and examine them with diligence and understanding, that they are the Doctrine of the holy Ghost, and consequently the work of the Apostles. And the majesty and lustre of heavenly Doctrine is such, that if it be propounded by mean and obscure persons, it will appear illustrious, even as a rich jewel, if the same be delivered by a poor Artificer, doth manifest his own worth: and therefore the sequel of the jesuits Argument is denied; for it followeth not because the Doctrine of Christ must be illustrious, that the Church which delivereth the same, must be always so. Thirdly, S. Augustine in the place objected, Epist. 48. confuteth the Donatists, which confined the Church universal to one country only, excluding the rest of the world from the communion thereof: against this error he saith, How can we think that we have received Christ made manifest, if we have not also received his Church made manifest? From hence nothing can be inferred, but that we receive the true Church, not only at one time, or in one place, but at all times, and in all places where it is manifest, and that Christ is revealed and made manifest by the Doctrine of the Apostles, and that this Doctrine must be preached (although not at one time, yet successively) throughout the whole world. But all this which S. Augustine speaketh being granted, proveth not that the true Church shall be notoriously eminent and visible at all times: neither doth this Father say, that Christ cannot be manifest but by such a Church only, as can lineally derive her pedigree by Records and Tables from the Apostles. And howsoever Papists boast of their own pedigree, yet when their Catalogue of descent is duly examined, all the passages are not so currant in it as they pretend. Fourthly, the principle of Aristotle a Aristot. Anal. Poster. li. 1. ca 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. upon which the last Argument is grounded, admitteth many exceptions, b Zabarel. come. ib. Text. 15. & 16. Multas videtur pati difficultates, etc. Aquin. 〈◊〉 Quest. 87. ar. 2. ad. 3. 〈◊〉 habet si intelligatur in his quae sunt unius ordinis, etc. Idem. 〈◊〉. Sent. d. 12. ar. 2. ad. 2. Quandò 〈◊〉 est causa alterius essentiali ordine. That, because of which another thing is such, is itself much more such, when both things are of the same order, and partake the same affection, as Christ which sanctifieth is more holy than they which are sanctified. Fire is hotter than water, and other things warmed by it, etc. But it holdeth not in causes equivocal or partial, or in causes by accident, or of diverse order. The Sun causeth life in plants, and yet the Sun is without life. A whetstone sharpeneth tools, and yet is dull itself. Evil manners cause good laws, and yet evil manners are not good. daniel's wisdom is revealed to Baltasar by the queen, Dan. 5. 10, 11. yet Daniel is not made a 〈◊〉 man, nor only known to be such, by that report: so likewise the name of Christ, his glory, his virtue, and miracles are famously known of belecuers from age to age, by reason of the Church and her preaching, etc. But all this concerning Christ is neither principally nor only made known to the world by the present Church, nor by the Roman Church, more effectually than by other Churches, and the Church is a caufe of one kind and order, and the Scripture of another. The Church is veluti Preco & Nuntius, like a Crier and Messenger, but the holy Scripture is the Word, Handwriting, c 〈◊〉 tom. 5. Hom. d. sui Expuls'. 〈◊〉 manum eius ipsa, mihi murus inexpugnabilis. and Epistle of Christ, d Jdem 2. Thess. Hom. 3. Epistolae quotidiè de Coelis venientes leguntut. Audivi lectas hic regias Epistolas. into whose voice and authority all the faithful resolve their beleese concerning Christ and all his actions: and according to S. Agustine, In sanctis libris manifestatur Dominus, & ibi eius Ecclesia declaratur, e Aug. Epift. 50. In the holy books of Scripture the Lord is made manifest, and in the same also his Church is declared: and in another place, f Aug. Ep. 166. 〈◊〉 d. unit. 〈◊〉. c. 3. Sunt certè libri Dominici, quorum authoritati 〈◊〉 consentimus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, utriquè seruimus, ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam, ibi discutiamus causam nostram. In Scriptures divinis Christum, in Scriptures didicimus Ecclesiam, In the Scriptures we have learned Christ, and in the Scriptures we have learned the Church. Now if the Scriptures manifest Christ, and demonstrate his Church, they are of greater authority a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Pentateuch. Fid. vol. 3. Dub. 10. c. 14. Comparatione huius (id est) Scripturae, testimonium Ecclesiae dici 〈◊〉 potest testimonium hominum, utpote quod in rigore sermonis non obtinet proprietates & requisita ad rationem verbi Dei, etc. Ca 15. Illud 〈◊〉 est verbum Dei (quoad omnia & singula) ca 14. Hoc verò ab extrinseco, etc. , and consequently more credible, famous, and illustrious than the Church, according to the jesuits Theorem out of Aristotle, Propter quod unum quodquè tale est, & illud magis. Jesuit. Fourthly, the Church is one, that is, all the Pastors and Preachers thereof deliver, and consequently all her professors and children believe, one and the same Faith. ANSWER. The visible Church in regard of the sound and living part thereof, is one both in Faith and Charity b Aug. c. Petil. Don. li. 2. c. 77. Tenemus charitatem si amplectimur unitatem amplectimur autèm unitatem, si ea non per verba nostra non in parte confingim ', sed per verba Christi in unitate cognoscimus. Id. Membra Christi per unitatis charitatem sibi copulantur, & per eandem capiti suo cohaerent quod est Christus jesus, etc. Theoder. Expos. Psal. 47. Communitèr omnes in unam domum rediguntur ob consonantium veterum Dogmatum. , Ephes. 4.3.4. etc. But this unity is more or less perfect c Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. Fid. Vol. 1. Dub. 19 c. 3. Vnitas formalis & substantialis & unitas perfectiva. at some times, and in some persons than in other. Unity in all Verity, and in all sanctity of Virtue and Charity is necessary to Salvation, in praeparatione animi, in the purpose and intention of heart, Rom. 12. 18. and actual Unity in fundamental points of Faith, and in the main offices of Charity is simply necessary to Salvation, Heb. 12.14. but perfect concord, excluding all discord, is not perpetually found amongst the best members of the visible Church d Aug. c. jul. li. 1. ca 2. Alia sunt in quibus inter se 〈◊〉 etiam doctissimi atquè optimi regulae Catholicae defensoris, salua fidei compage, non consentiunt & alius alio de una re melius & verius dicit. Hoc autèm undè nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei 〈◊〉 fundamenta. Idem sup. Psal. 45. Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. Fid. p. 1. dub. 8. ca 3. Cyprian. tr. d. laps. Inter alia peccata reperta in hominibus ad Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 recenset animorum discordias & controverfias. . There was contention among the Disciples, Luc. 22.24. and the African and European Churches were divided concerning rebaptising e Concil. Carthag. apud Cypt. & Ib. Pamel. Id. ep. 72. & 73. & 74. & 75. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 7. c. 2.3, 4. , and the Eastrne and Western Churches about the day of Easter f Idem li. 5. c. 23. . S. Augustine saith, That good men being but proficients, may be at strife g Aug. Proficientes autèm nondumquè perfecti, etc. d. 〈◊〉 Dei, li. 15. ca 5. . Aquinas affirmeth, That discord is not a sin unless it overthrow Charity, or be corrupted with error concerning matters of Faith which are necessary to be known to Salvation, or in smaller points with 〈◊〉 a Aquin. 22. q. 37. ar. 1. Cum intentio aliquorum fit ad aliquod bonum, quod 〈◊〉 ad honorem accidens contra bonum 〈◊〉 vel . . Also discord may happen in the visible 〈◊〉 by the pride, ambition, and faction of the in which case, 〈◊〉 persons, although they 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 all lawful peace and 〈◊〉, yet through the 〈◊〉 of those which are enemies to peace b 〈◊〉 Hist. 〈◊〉 Lib. 6. cap. 4. & 〈◊〉 Constantini, Lib. 2. cap. 60. & 61. Greg. Nazianz. 〈◊〉. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Aug. sup. 〈◊〉. 45. Nondum nondum completum est. 〈◊〉. sup. Ezech. c. 4. Vereor ne ista 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in nostra 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in qua visio pacis cernitur, quam conteret Dominus quando irascitur, & indignos nos etc. deficiente autem pane & 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 vir contra 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 discordia est, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nobis Christi tunicam, quam nec milites in passione saluatoris nisi sunt, etc. , they cannot 〈◊〉 it. 〈◊〉. 120.5, 6, 7. Jesuit. For if the Preachers and Pastors of the Church disagree about matters which they preach, as necessary points of Faith, how can their Tradition and Testimony be of Credit therein, or have any Authority to persuade? who will or canfirmely 〈◊〉 disagreeing witnesses upon their words? ANSWER. First, They which disagree in part, and accord in the main, may have substantial 〈◊〉, although they want the prefection of unity, and these are of credit, and may persuade in those things wherein they consent: as appeareth by S. Cyprian and his. Colleagues, disagreeing with the Romans touching Appeals and 〈◊〉, and yet converting many people to godliness. Secondly, When there is discord between 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 matters, the Orthodox party, 〈◊〉 many (〈◊〉 all those whose hearts the Lord 〈◊〉 and moveth a Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. Lib. 4. c. 16. Ipsis quoque ministris sanctis hominibus vel etiam sanctis Angelis operantibus, nemo recte discit quae pertinent ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deo nisi fiat a 〈◊〉 docilis, etc. 〈◊〉, Doctrinae tum prosunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 cum Dem 〈◊〉 ut prosint, etc. ) to discern and obey the truth: Otherwise, in the great Dissensions of the ancient Church, reported by Eusebius, Lib. 2. cap. 60. & 61. d. vita Constantini b 〈◊〉. Eo usque diffudit sese uti non hominum licuisset. Eo 〈◊〉 Theatris 〈◊〉 . , no people should have been converted to God. Thirdly, If 〈◊〉, take away all possibility of persuading, from the Pastors of the Church, than the Romans, which 〈◊〉 with 〈◊〉 Ancestors in many points of Doctrine, and have had so many Schisms (whereof some have been most bloody and pernicious to the Christian World a Vno die centum & triginta septem cadavera peremptorum. Oath Frising. Chron. Lib. 6. cap. 22. ) must want power to persuade. The efficacy of persuasion dependeth upon absolute concord only, as upon a greater motive of credibility, and not as upon a proper efficient: and although Preachers should be contentious, and factious, yet the Word of Christ truly delivered by any of them, is in itself mighty in operation, and able to persuade b August. d. Doctr. Christ. Lib. 4. cap. 27. Boni sideles non quemlibet hominum, sed ipsum Deum obedienter audiunt, etc. and convert souls: and God Almighty many times shows his power in the Ministry of infirm and imperfect Instruments. Phil. 1. 16, 17. Jesuit. And this consent must be conspicuous and evident: For if in outward appearance and show, Preachers descent one from another in main and material Doctrines, their Authority is crazed, and their Testimony of no esteem. Howsoever, perchance their Dissensions may by some distinctions so be coloured, that one cannot convince him that would boldly undertake to defend (as D. Field undertakes for Protestant's) that their Dissensions are but verbal. But what is this to the purpose? Do the accused Dissentioners allow this Doctor's Reconciliation? 〈◊〉 they give over Contention hereupon? No: but confess that such Reconcilers miss of their meaning, and that they disagree substantially about the very prime Articles of Faith. How can these men be witnesses of Credit for substantial Articles, concerning which there is open confessed and professed Dissension among them. ANSWER. The consent of Pastors according to one sense, to wit, expounding Must, for 〈◊〉, Ought (as 1. Tim. 3.2.) is to be conspicuous and evident, both in Faith and in Charity: and when this is fulfilled, the testimony of Pastors is of greater weight and credit among men. But this perfection of Visitie is 〈◊〉: and therefore although the same be 〈◊〉 in part, the Pastors of the Church are not despoiled of all Authority and credit in delivering Christ's Word a 〈◊〉. Alexandr. Strom. Lib. 7. f. 541. Primum ergo hoc adversus nos adducunt dicentes non oportere credere, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Fore 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 seminentur 〈◊〉 ut in fi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prophetice a Domino dictumest, & fieti non potest, ut non fiat id quod praedictum est esse futurum, etc. Num quispiam aegrotans, & qui ut curetur opus habet, non admittit Medicum propter eas quae sunt in medicina haereses, etc. Neque fi appositus sit fructus, unus quidem verus & maturus, alius vero factus ex cera quam maxime similis, propter similitudinem est abstinendum ab utroque, etc. Et quemadmodum si una sit via Regia, & multae etiam aliae, ex quibus aliquae ferunt in praecipitium, etc. Cum oleribus. Hortensibus una 〈◊〉 nascutitur herbae, etc. , if the better part of them observe Unity in the Bond of Peace, in things essential, and in the common Rule of Faith. And although the quality of Teachers be a motive of credibility, yet the power of persuasion dependeth properly upon the Word of Christ; and they which disagree in other matters, and with a common consent teach the main and principal Doctrine of Faith, must therein be credited, because of the prime Author himself b Bellarm. d. Concil. li. 2. c. 19 Non nititur salus Ecclesiae praecipue humana industria sed 〈◊〉 Dei cum eius Rex sit Deus, etc. . If humane frailty, discord, and error in some things, should totally discredit the Authority of Teachers, the World must receive no Divine Verity by the Ministry of men, because amongst men, Non germinat granum Veritatis, sine palea Vanitatis, The good Seed of Verity, springeth not without some Chaff of Vanity c Gerson. d. Pace. consid. 3. Dried. d. Eccles. Dog. lib. 4. cap. 2. pa. 224. Ecclesia sub hac peregrinatione constituta, etc. nondum sine paleis & Zizanijs, etc. etiam in membris vivis. . S. Cyprian, S. Augustine, S. Hierome, etc. disagree in some things, and Tertullian and Origen have many errors, and therein are reproved by others; and yet the rest of their Doctrine (wherein they teach truly) receiveth no prejudice from their contrary errors. The jesuits and Dominicans, and other Scholasticks d Cornel. Mus. come. Rom. 6. pag. 279. Vigebat Spinosa & molesta nescio quae Theologia de 〈◊〉, de Relationibus, de Quidditatibus, etc. Tota pene aetas in hominum decretis quae inter se pugnantia 〈◊〉, nullo tempore 〈◊〉, alunt perpetuum per secula litem, conterebatur, etc. Is sublimis Theologus habebatur, qui maiora portenta pro suis Traditiunculis fingere sciat, etc. Hinc Sexcentae Sectae, Thomistae, Scotistae, Occhamistae, Albertistae, Egidiani, Alexandrei, etc. O scelus, posthabebantur Euangelia, Epistolae, Christiana sapientia delitescebat, a paucissimis tradebatur, sed frigide, non dicam infincere, etc. , desire to be esteemed credible Witnesses, and yet there is no small contention betwixt them, concerning sundry Questions. Although therefore some dissension be found among Teachers, yet their whole Doctrine is not thereby made incredible, neither is there perpetually in the true Church a visible and perspicuous concord in all things. In the words ensuing, the Adversary questioneth Doctor Field, because he affirmeth, That Protestants Dissensions are not real, but apparent and verbal. Against this he affirmeth, Greg. Naz. Orat. 13. Contentio inter nos fuit, male id quidem non 〈◊〉 inficiabor (nec 〈◊〉 Diabolo aditum 〈◊〉 aut ansam nec improbis linguis libertatem dari oportuit) non 〈◊〉 tanta quanta iis 〈◊〉, qui 〈◊〉 nostras per calumniam insectantur. That so long as Contentioners rest unsatisfied, and admit no Reconciliation, saying, That Reconcilers have miss of their meaning; it is vain by distinctions to colour their Discord, etc. 〈◊〉. First, To 〈◊〉 Discord by distinctions, is no means of true 〈◊〉 but by 〈◊〉 to discover and manifest, that Contentioners 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other, and whereas they speak diversty in 〈◊〉, yet they maintain the same Verity in substance, this may be to good purpose. Secondly, Although A 〈◊〉 are many times froward, and will not for the present admit the charitable constructions of moderate persons a Greg. Naz. Orat. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Quicunque 〈◊〉 paci student, mediosque se profitentur, ab 〈◊〉 male mulctantur, utpote qui vel contemptui sint, vel etiam bello 〈◊〉. , 〈◊〉 to reconcile them, Exod. 2. 14. Act. 7.27. yet at the last, Unity may be effected by this means, and peaceable and moderate Christians ought in the mean season to gather the fair Lily of saving Verity, growing amidst the Thorns of humane Infirmity. Jesuit. Fiftly, I infer, That this Church is universal, spread over all Nations, that she may be said to be every where morally speaking, that the whole known World may take notice of her, as of a worthy and credible witness of Christian Tradition, howsoever her outward glory and splendour, peace and tranquillity, be sometimes obscured in some places, more or less, and not ever in all places at once. ANSWER. The Church is universall: First, Because of time: for it continueth successively in all Ages, Matth. 28.20. Luc. 1.33. Secondly, In regard of Persons and Places, because no Country, Nation, State, Age, or Sex of People, are excluded from being part of it, Galat. 3.20. Act. 10.34. Apoc. 5.9. Thirdly, In respect of Faith, because Divine Verity, constitutive, and which giveth being to the true Church, continueth throughout all Ages, 1. Pet. 1.25. Reuel. 14.6. and is found in all the parts of the true Church. But notwithstanding this, the true Church is not perpetually universal, in regard of actual amplitude, and diffusion of visible Congregations, throughout all Nations, and inhabited. Countries of the World a Card. 〈◊〉. Compend. cap. 37. 〈◊〉 nostra, 〈◊〉 a sul exordio, fuerit semper Cath & 〈◊〉, universitate puritatis, sanctitatis, & veritatis, non tamen universitate dilatationis, etc. ; for it may in some Ages, in actu exercito, and in regard of actual residence, remain only in a few Countries: and Cardinal Bellarmine b Bellarm. d. Eccles. li. 4. c. 7. Quod 〈◊〉 sola una Provincia retineret veram 〈◊〉 adhuc vere & proprie Ecclesia diceretur Catholica, dummodo clare ostenderetur, 〈◊〉 esse unam & candem cum illa quae fuit aliquo tempore vel diversis, in toto mundo. granteth, That if one sole Province of the World should retain true Faith, yet the Church might then be truly and properly called universal, if it could manifestly be showed that the same were one with that Church which was once universally spread over the world. And although Deiure, by right and according to the divine Precept, the true Church should at all times remain and continue in those regions where it was once planted; yet it happeneth by the malice and iniquity of man, that those places which once were a Sanctuary of holiness, are afterwards changed into the habitation of Satan, a Dried. d. Eccl. dog. li. 4. p. 2. c. 2. Per Haereticos Arium, Nestorium, Eunomium, Mahumetam, major pars veram Ecclesiam de seruit ad dogmata à traditione sanctorum patrum aliena. and into a cage of unclean Birds. The jesuit perceiving that it is impossible to defend a perpetual actual universality of the Church, presenteth unto us an imaginary universality: his words are, She may be said to be every where morally speaking, etc. I answer: Morally speaking, the Church cannot be said to be, where it is altogether unknown, and where no means are used, or actions performed, which are sufficient to make it known. A king may morally be said to be in every part of his kingdom b 〈◊〉. Mirand. Apol. q. 1. Rex existens in Palatio, dicitur esse in alio loco provinciae, ubi authoritate potestatis suae, & imperio suo aliquid 〈◊〉 operatur. , because his laws, ministers, and government are extended throughout all his kingdom, and king Richard the first, when he was in Syria c Roger. Hoveden. Annal. pars poster. in Richard. 1. , might be said to be morally in England. But the true Church, in many ages, hath no commerce with Infidels in things spiritual, mediate or immediate: the Faith, Preaching, and authority thereof, is altogether unknown to many people, to wit, to the inhabitants of America for 1400. years: to many other nations of Africa and Europe, for 600. years, etc. And many people, which hear the fame of Christians in general, as they do of the jews, have no means to distinguish Orthodox Believers from Heretics: and they which understand not the Doctrine of the true Church, cannot take notice of her, as of a worthy and credible witness of divine Tradition. Jesuit. A truth so clear, that it may be evidently proved out of Scripture, that even in Antichrists days the Church Apoc. 18. v. 8. shall be visibly universal: for she shall then be every where persecuted; which could not be, except she were every where visible, and conspicuous even to the wicked. ANSWER. Your former Proposition, concerning the perpetual local universality of the Church, is as clear, as the Sunshine at midnight; and the Arguments whereby you labour to prove it, are of no force. First, if it were granted that the true Church, in the reign of Antichrist, should be visibly universal; yet it is inconsequent: Ergo, The true Church is perpetually and in all ages visibly universal. Separable accidents are sometimes present to the subject, and sometimes absent: but visible universality is a separable accident, as appeareth by the state of the true Church, in the first hundred year a Card. 〈◊〉. Theolog. institut. compend. c. 37. Ecclesia tamen nostra licet à sui exordio semper fuerit Catholica & universalis, universitate puritatis, sanctitatis, & veritatis: non tamen 〈◊〉 dilatationis. . Secondly, the words of Saint john, Apoc. 20. 8. are: And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth and seduce the nations which are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the Sea. In this Prophecy, nothing is delivered which doth expressly or by consequence argue the visible universality of the true Church in all ages. 1. The nations which are upon the four corners of the earth seduced by Satan, may be Infidels b Riber. in Apoc. c. 20. p. 399. Seducet 〈◊〉 ex universis orbis partib' multos, & in iis Gog & Magog, etc. , at least a great part of them, as well as Christians: and although Satan possessed & deceived them before, yet now when he is loosed, he doth in a new manner, and by a greater efficacy of error deceive them c Dionis. Carthus. in Apoc. 20. ar. 21. . 2. The true Church may be persecuted universally by multitudes of enemies dispersed every where, and yet remain itself, in one or in few places; and it may also be persecuted, when it professeth and exerciseth religion in secret, Apoc. 12.14, 15. 3. Many learned Papists affirm, that in the days of Antichrist, true believers shall cease to be in many places, and the number of orthodoxal people shall be small, and the same shall profess their faith in secret, August. Triumph, d Aug. 〈◊〉. Illo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Glossa dicit, particulares Ecclesiae undique per orbem diffusae subtrahent se ab obedientia Romani Pontificis, ita 〈◊〉 pauci ei obediant & Papa tunc temporis circa partes Italiae se recludet cum paucis, aliis ab obedientia eius substractis. sum. d. Eccles. pot. q. 21. ar. 4. At that time particular Churches diffused far and near over the world, shall withdraw themselwes from the obedience of the Roman Pope, and few shall obey him, and the Pope himself at that time, shall with a few keep himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉, others being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from his 〈◊〉. The like is affirmed by Occam a Occam. dial. p. 1. l. 5. c. 30. , 〈◊〉 b 〈◊〉. sum. d. 〈◊〉. c. 30. , 〈◊〉 c Caiet. Luc. 18. v. 8. 〈◊〉 d 〈◊〉. d. Antichristo li. 8. c. 8. 9.12. , and Barradias' e Barrad. Harm. Euang. tb. 3. lib. 4. cap. 12. Hieron. sup. Soph. c. 2. De Ecclesia videtur prima fronte esse blasphemum, quod ea futura fit invia, & deserta & bestiae habitent in ea, etc. Sed si quis consideraverir 〈◊〉 Apostolicum in quo dicitur, in novisimis temporibus instabunt tempora pesima, etc. Necnon quod in Euangelio Scriptum est, quod multiplicata iniquitate 〈◊〉 charitas multorum, in tantum ut illo tempore compleatur verumamen veniens filius hominis putas 〈◊〉 fidem super terram? non mirabitur de extrema Ecclesiae vestitate quae regnante Antichristo tradenda sit in solitudinem, etc. . Now this former affertion, which is the common Tener of Papists, agreeth not with the speech of our Adversary, when he saith, That in the days of Antichrist, the Church shall be every where visible and conspicuous, even to the wicked: and he must revoke his bold 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his first words; A truth so clear that it may evidently be proved, etc. Jesuit. The reason of this perpetual visible universality is, because the Tradition of the Church, is as I have proved, the sole ordinary means to ground faith on for substantial points. Wherefore this Tradition must be so delivered, as that it may be known to all men, seeing God will have all men (without any exception of nation) to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of Truth, 1. Timothy 2. 4. But if the Church were not still so diffused in the world, that all known nations may take notice of her, all men could not be saved. ANSWER. Although the teaching and Tradition of the Church, is the first Introduction, to lead people unto the knowledge of the grounds of salvation, and the ordinary means whereby they receive the holy Scriptures, and rule of Faith contained in the same (which is all you have or can prove f Cassand. def. jib. d. Offic. Pij. Viri. pag. 821. A quibus hanc Traditionem accepimus, testes sunt 〈◊〉, caelestis Doctrinae. ) yet hence it followeth not, that the true Church is visibly universal in all places of the world. First, you are reproved by the example of the Indians, and people inhabiting the New found World who are Gods creatures and reasonable men, form 〈◊〉 his image, capable of grace and 〈◊〉 as well as other men, and included within the latitude of 〈◊〉 promises, a 〈◊〉. recte dici 〈◊〉 iftos ad promissionem Dei 〈◊〉 pertinere. Non enim Romanos sed omnes genres Dominus, semini 〈◊〉, media 〈◊〉 iuratione 〈◊〉. Math. 28.19. Marc. 16.15. Call. 2.28. Call. 3.11, and the Apostles speech, 1. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 4. God will 〈◊〉 all men to be 〈◊〉 &c, 〈◊〉 them as well as others. And yet notwithstanding, the true Church whose Tradition (according to your position) is the sole ordinary means to ground Faith on, was not for many ages either Actually or Moraily visible, universal, or any ways made known to them. It seems by the conclusion of your Argument, wherein you insert these words, That all known nations, etc. that you observed this, but you are no way able to clear the difficulty: for if because S. Paul saith, God will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, the true Church must in all age be visibly universal, than the same must be so in regard of the nations inhabiting the New found world, because S. Paul's words, God will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, are universal (according to your exposition) and must be understood without limitation, or respect of persons. Secondly, when S. Paul saith, God will have all men to be saved, etc. He 〈◊〉 according to the antecedent will of God (as learned Papists commonly maintain.) But b Aquinas p. 1. q. 19 ar. 6. ad. 1. & 1. sent. d. 47. ar. 2. & d. verit. q. 23. ar. 3. Richard. 1.47. ar. 1. q. 1. Scot 1. d. 46. q. vnic. Occam, Gabriel. lb. q. 1. Bonauent. Durand. Herueus, Capreolus. this antecedent Will (according to some learned Papists) is no formal Will in God, but is only improperly and metaphorically so called c Soto. Maior. come. 1. Tim. 2.4. pa. 274. De voluntate antecedenti, id est imaginaria & secundum quid, impropriè vel metaphoricè dicta. Bannes' 1. q. 19 art. 6. Zumel. 1. q. 19 art. 6. and according to others, which say it is a formal Will, the same produceth not universally either grace of outward calling to Salvation, or inward grace in them that are externally called, and therefore it is inconsequent to argue, from this manner of Gods willing all men to be saved, That the true Church is in all ages visibly universal. 1. Aquinas, and others say, that the antecedent will of God is only a velleity d 〈◊〉 1. q. 〈◊〉. ar. 6. ad. 1. Magis dici . 〈◊〉. lb. pa. 595. Voluntas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 semper est voluntas inefficax, sive secundum quid, quae vocatur velleitas. or wishing that the thing might be, a complacency in a thing considered abstractively and without other circumstances e 〈◊〉. in. 1. p. Tho. q. 19 〈◊〉. 6. Disp. 56. nu. 18. Pius d. Ponte Ibid. dub. 3. Cordub. lib. 1. q. 56. Aluar. d. Auxil. disp. 34. nu. 3. Meclin. in. 1. p. Tho. q. 19 art. 6. sect. 2. , and that upon it alone the Salvation of no man followeth. 2. The same is general in respect of all f Chrys. sup. Rom. Serm. 2. Quemadmodùm enim in Sole & Luna, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ubi neque 〈◊〉 neque 〈◊〉 amplius aliquid contributum est, sed aequa omnibus concessa fruitio: ita & in Euangelica doctrina, imò in hac tantò plenius quantò illa reliquis omnibus necessaria magis 〈◊〉. and every singular and individual person, and God by his antecedent will wisheth the Salvation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by experience, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Will, all 〈◊〉 and singular persons: by the ministry of the true Church and that whole countries and nations for 〈◊〉 ages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the same, a Prosper. d. lib. arb. ad Ruffin. Neque enim remotum est ab inspectione communi quot seculis, quam innumera 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lia vera cognitione defecerint. Aug. epist. 80. Sunt apud nos hoc est in Africa Barbarae 〈◊〉 gentes, in quibus nondum est praedicatum 〈◊〉. Id. 〈◊〉. 78. Quantae 〈◊〉 adhuc 〈◊〉 sine 〈◊〉 Euangelio, etc. Quod remansit gentium, ubi nondum est Euangelium praedicatum. Origen. in Math. 〈◊〉. 28. 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, sed etiam nostrarum gentium, 〈◊〉 nunc non 〈◊〉 Christianitatis verbunt. Nondum est praedicatum Euangelium regni in 〈◊〉 orbe. Quid autem dicamus de Britannis, 〈◊〉 Germanis, qui 〈◊〉 circa 〈◊〉 apud Barbaros, Dacoes, & 〈◊〉, & Scythas, quorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 audierunt 〈◊〉 gelij verbum, etc. and some country's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the preaching of the Gospel sooner, and others latter, some have been 〈◊〉 in one age, and some in another. 4. God's antecedent Will is always the same: and 〈◊〉 to it he 〈◊〉 the Salvation of all men in the time of the Old Testament, Ezek. 33.11. Now from the former positions, it followeth, that S. Paul's words, 1. Tim. 2.4. God will have all men to be saved, etc. do not 〈◊〉 that the true Church is visibly universal in all ages, since the Ascension of Christ, and the preaching of the Apostles. For if the antecedent will of God (of which S. Paul speaketh, 1. Tim. 2.4.) be only a velleity and complacency about man's Salvation abstractively considered b 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉 disp. 34. nu. 3. Si consideretur falus reproborum secundum se & absolutè sic est à Deo 〈◊〉. Si autem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 privationem, splendoris 〈◊〉 eius in electis sic non est volita à Deo. and if it respect singular and individual persons as well as whole nations, and notwithstanding the same, many singular persons and whole nations have been destitute (and that for a long space of time) of all means of conversion and outward calling to Christianity: and if the same Will, for some large tract of time, produceth no external effect sufficient to convert Infidels c Lichet 2. sent. d. 47. q. vnic. Velle 〈◊〉 quo ita placet volitum, quod tamen voluntas tale volitum non ponat in esse licet posset ponere illud in esse. , than it followeth that the true Church, which is the only ordinary teacher of saving verity, is not visibly universal in all places of the world in every age. The minor is proved from the four propositions formerly delivered. The sequel is evident by the exposition which our Adversaries deliver of S. Paul's text, understanding the same of the antecedent will of God, and from the position of the 〈◊〉 delivered in this section, which is, That the Tradition and Preaching of the true visible Church, is the sole ordinary means to lead people to the knowledge of saving Truth. For if the antecedent will of God is not a certain and infallible cause, that all people shall at all times have the preaching of saving Verity by the ministry of the true visible Church: than it is not necessary, that because God will have all men to be saved by his antecedent will, therefore the true Church must in all ages be visibly universal. A contingent cause undetermined, doth not produce or argue a constant, certain, and necessary effect. The antecedent will of God is a contingent cause a 〈◊〉. quest. 1. Scholar d. diu. vol. ar. 7. nu. 5. Contingentia dicitur de omni 〈◊〉 quod potest esse & non esse, etc. Nequè opus est ut in hac latitudine denotet imperfectionem aliquam seu mutabilitatem, sed causam ità potentem operari ut in eius voluntate sit operari, aut non operari, Scotus. dist. 39 q. Vnic. Voluntas divina nihil aliud respicit necessario pro obiecto, ab essentia sua: ad quodlibet igitur aliud contingentèr se habet. in respect of the perpetual visible universality of the Church. Ergo The antecedent will of God doth not produce or argue a perpetual visible universality of the Church. For if notwithstanding the antecedent will of God, many singular persons and whole nations may be for some space of time destitute of outward calling by the ministry of the Church, and of all moral possibility for that space of time of the having thereof, and are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, because without any special demerit of their own, they are destitute of the word of Faith, (as it is maintained by Aquinas b Aquinas. 22. q. 10. ar. 1. Bannes. lb. Victoria. d. Indis. Relect. 5. nu. 8. and his followers) than the antecedent will of God is only a contingent cause, in respect of producing & arguing outward calling by the ministry of the Church, and consequently of the perpetual visible universality of the true Church. But the first is true, as appeareth by the Indies c Acosta. d. proc. Indorum. Sal. li. 1. c. 5. p. 133. Multos esse homines suis tenebris relictos, occulto Dei, veroquè 〈◊〉, negare non possumus, neque homines modo, sed & familias, & urbes, & integras saepe provincias & gentes. Qui & olim fuerunt & nunc vsquè sunt sine Christo, etc. before Columbus arriving in their coasts, and by many barbarous people and nations living in remote regions, and having no preachers of the Gospel sent unto them, before the two hundred, five hundred, or six hundred year after Christ, Ergo, The latter is also true. Jesuit. Sixtly, this Church is holy both in life and doctrine: holy for life, shining in all excellent and wonderful sanctity, such as the Apostles gave example of, as Poverty, Chastity, Obedience, Virginity, Charity, in undergoing labours for the help of Souls, Fortitude, in suffering heroical Martyredomes, Zeal and Patience in the rigorous treaty of their bodies, by miraculous Fasting, and other austerities. ANSWER. Sanctity is a property and inseparable quality of the true Church in respect of all the living members thereof, Cant. 4. 7. Eph. 5.26, 27. 1. Cor. 14.33. Rom. 1.7. Eph. 1.18. & c. 4.12. Phil. 4.21. Coll. 1.12. 1. Cor. 6.11. 1. john 3.18. And the same is called holy. First, Because it is cleansed and washed from the guiltiness of sin by the immaculate blood of Christ a Turrecr. sum, d. Eccles. lib. 1. ca 9 Sanctum idem est quod sanguine tinctum vel 〈◊〉 sive emundatum etc. Huius significationis genere, maxim Dei Ecclesia sancta appellanda venit, quae sanguine Christi respersa, purificationem peccatorum accepit, & decorem induit sanctitatis. Card. Monilian. Theolog. compend. c. 36. Dicitur sancta quasi sanguine Christi tincta: Christus enim eam lavit à peccatis suis, in sanguine suo. Eph. 5.26. , Apoc. 1.5. Heb. 10.10. & c. 13.12. Secondly, Because it is partaker of the holiness of Christ the head thereof by Grace, 1. Cor. 1.30. Ephes. 5.30. john 17.19. Heb. 12.10. and because of the special inhabitation and operation of the holy Ghost b August. sup. Psalm. 45. , Ephes. 1.13. 1. Cor. 3.17. 1. Thessal. 4.8. 2. Tim. 1. 14. Thirdly, Because it is called and consecrated unto holiness, 2. Tim. 1.9. 1. Pet. 2.9. 1. Thessal. 4.7. Apoc. 1.6. Fourthly, Because the Faith, Doctrine, Laws, Sacraments, and Religion thereof are holy c Cordub. Arma. Fid. q. 1. Propos. 2. Bellarm. d. Ecclesia li. 4. ca 11. Greg. Val. tom. 3. disp. 1. punct. 7. Bannes' 22. q. 1. ar. 10. fo. 100 August. sup. Psal. 85. Accepit gratiam sanctitatis, 〈◊〉 Baptismi, & 〈◊〉 peccatorum. . jud. v. 20. 2. Pet. 2.20. Tit. 3.5. Fiftly, Because the virtues and actions thereof are truly and indeed holy, whereas the virtues of Infidels which live out of the Church are profane and unholy, as bearing the image of virtue, but wanting the true form and fruit thereof d Aug. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 5. cap. 10. & li. 19 c. 25. & Enchir. c. 75. & sup. joh. tr. 76. & d. fid. & operib. c. 7. & d. verb. Dom. Serm. 12. & d. Temp. s. 32. Prosp. sent. 106. & d. Vit. Contempl. li. 3. c. 1. & d. voc. Gent. li. 1. c. 3. & d. lib. Arb. ad Ruffin. etc. Collator. pa. 149. Gregor. Armin. 2. d. 26. q. 1. Capreol. 2. d. 28. ad. 3. & d. 41. pa. 569. Cassalius, d. quadrip. Iust. li. 1. c. 3. pa. 157. . But our Adversary passeth by these causes and reasons of the sanctity of the Church, being proper and essential (which are delivered in the holy Scripture) and will have the same to be reputed holy, because of monastical vows of Poverty, Obedience, and Chastity, and for external Fast, Whip, wearing of Haircloth, and other bodily exercises which some Heremites and cloisterers perform in the Roman Church. Touching this Assertion we are to observe. First that the jesuit doth only affirm these things, but bringeth no proof, and therefore it were sufficient for me to say with S. Hierom c 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. sup. Mat. c. 23. Quod de Scriptures non habet authoritatem eadem facilitate contemnitur qua probatur, That which wanteth authority from the Scriptures, may as well be despised, as received. Secondly, when the principal Doctors of the Romish Church, deliver the causes why the true Church is styled Holy, they either omit these external exercises, or else only mention them as accessary, Turrccrem. sum. d. Eccles. l. 1. c. 9 Cordub. Arma. fid. q. 1. propos. 2. Bannes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. Bellarm. d. Eccles. l. 4. c. 11. Greg. Val. to. 3. Disp. 1. punct. 7. Thirdly, these exercises are common to hypocrites and heretics, and they make not people holy and good which use them, and the Church may be holy without them, and therefore they are no constitutive parts, or essential properties of the sanctity of the Church. That the same are common, appeareth by the example of the Pharisees a Epiph. c. Haer. c. 16. Quidan decé, etc. sibi annorum spacium praefigebant quibus 〈◊〉 aut castitatem colorent: hoc tempus continuis precibus traducebant, & id certaminis frequenti restaurabant, etc. Alij super tabulas dodrantales, etc. Alij super pavimentum, & alij collectos calculos substernebant, etc. Alij spinas, etc. , and of many Heretics b Montanistae. Euchitae. Apostolici. , which used these exercises with great austerity, and yet they were no sound parts of the holy Catholic Church. And that the Church may be holy without these exercises, is manifest, by reason and example. The Church which wanteth these things, may have all the causes of sanctity, to wit, Faith, Hope, Charity, Regeneration, remission of sins, etc. Therefore it may be holy without them. And the Church of the Hebrews, to which Saint Paul wrote his Epistle, was an holy Church, yet Saint Chrysostome c Chrys. 〈◊〉. 25. in moral. sup. Ep. Heb. saith: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. There was not so much as any footstep of a Monk, etc. Fourthly, these monastical vows have many times distained and corrupted the Church: and therefore they are no main or proper actions of holiness. Aluares Pelagius d Planct. Eccles. li. 2. Ar. 54. fol. 176. col. 3. saith of the Monks and cloisterers of his age: that they were Paupertatis professores, sed haereditatum successores: Professors of poverty, and heirs apparent to every man's land. Matthew Paris e In Henrico 3. fol. 592. saith, That the Mendicants in England raised stately buildings, equal to Prince's palaces, and they hoarded up invaluable treasure, etc. And Papirius Masson f d. Episc. urbis. l. 6. in Clement. 5. saith, Poverty which religious Orders seem to profess, is more hateful to them than to any other sort of men. The vow of Chastity made the most of them more impure than dogs, and to stink before God and men. That many of them were Sodomites, is affirmed by no meaner man than Saint Bernard g Bernard. d. convers. ad Cleric. c. 29. Post fornicationes, post adulteria, post incestus, nec ipsa quidem apud aliquos ignominiae passiones & 〈◊〉 opera desunt, etc. Nunquid non 〈◊〉 civitates illae huius spur citiae matres, divino prae damnatae iuditio & incendio de letae 〈◊〉, etc. Multi nec latere queunt prae multitudine nec prae impudentia quaerunt. , who saith, Besides fornication, adultery, and incest, the deeds of ignominy and turpitude, for which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha were predamned, are not wanting, etc. Rodericus, a famous Bishop, saith a Rodericus, specul. hum. vitae, lib. 2. c. 19 Nec una uni sufficit muliercula, nisi retentam habeat domi ut uxorem, Concubinas vero & Adolescentulas quarum non est numerus, pag. 305. , That Votaries and Regulars were not satisfied with one woman, but kept Concubines and young Damosels sans number. Alphonsus Castro saith b Alphons. 〈◊〉. d. Haer-punit. lib. 3. c. 5. Tam frequens 〈◊〉 est Sacerdotum incontinentia ut si quis illorum castus esse sciatur, quamuis multa alia illi desint necessaria, ob hoc solum, sanctus a populo habeatur. , The incontinency of Priests is in these days so frequent, that if but one of them be known to live chastely, although many other necessary 〈◊〉 lities be wanting in him, he is esteemed a holy man by the people for this one quality. Aluares Pelagius saith c Aluar. Pelag. d. planct. Eccles. lib. 2. art. 51. Sed hodie Cellulae nostrorum Anachoritarum Hypochriticarum, à mulierculis visitantur: quod eis saepe, etc. , That the Cells of Anchorites were daily visited by women. And in another place d Artic. 27. Per plurimos annos de latere Concubinae qualibet die surgunt. , Priests for many years together do arise every day from their Concubine's sides, and without going to Confession, say Mass. And in another place e Artic. 7. Apoc. 18. Custodia omnis immundi spiritus: quia intra Ecclesiam omnia peccata inveniuntur hodie quae immunda dicuntur, etc. Quis enim Clericorum intra sanctam Ecclesiam Castitatem seruat per pauci sunt hodie Presbyteri, maxim in Hispania & regno Apuliae, qui cum sint publici Concubinarij, etc. Nihilominus tota die celebrant, & daunt Ecclesiastica Sacramenta. , Quis Clericorum intra sanctam Ecclesiam, Castitatem seruat? What Clerk is there within the holy Church, which observeth Chastity? And again, There be few Priests in these days, in Spain and Apulia, which do not openly foster Concubines. Dionysius Carthusian saith f Dionys. Carthus. c. Plural. Ben. art. 13. Pet. Blesen. Serm. in Synodo. Quidam focarias habent, quidam alienis abutuntur uxoribus, sicut trahit sua quemque voluptas. Idem. Serm. ad Sacerd. Videmus hodie Sacerdotes cum filijs Eli fuscinulas tenentes & cum mulieribus in atrio Tabernaculi, excubantes: & facti sunt equi Emissarij. Vnusquisque ad uxorem proximi hinniebat. Videmus hodie Sacerdotes sedentes cum Baltazar in Connivijs cum Vxoribus & Concubinis abutentes vasis Domino consecratis. , Paucissimi eorum proh dolour, continenter viwnt; Few of them (out alas) live continently. And S. Bridget the Nun in her Revelation saith g Revel. Bridg. l. 6. c. 35. Paucissimi inveniuntur alij & tam pauci ut vix unus reperitur in centum. , Not one among a hundred. And the same Bridget speaking of Nuns, saith h Lib. 4. c. 33. Portae indifferenter Clericis & Laicis quibus placet sororibus introitum dare etiam in ipsis noctibus sunt apertae. Et ideo talia loca fimiliora sunt Lupanaribus quam sanctis Claustris. Gerson. to. 1. declare. def. Ecclesiae, pag. 208. Oculos apperite & inquirite, si quae hodie Claustra Monialium facta sunt quasi prostibula meretricum. Nichol. Clemang. d. corrup. stat. Eccles. Quid obsecro aliud sunt hoc tempore puellarum 〈◊〉, nisi quaedam non dico Dei Sanctuaria, sed veneris execranda prostibula, sed lascivorum 〈◊〉 ad libidines explendas receptacula, ut idem sit hodie puellam velare quod & publice ad scortandum impellere. Onus, Eccles. c. 22. §. 12. Adeo propatula, ut ipsa loca veneris prostibulo sint similiora quam Dei sacrario: hinc procacitas, stuprum, incestus 〈◊〉 sacratarum. , Talia loca similiora sunt Lupanaribus, quam sanctis Cellis; Such places are more like Brothelhouses and common Stews, than holy Cells. The Vow of Poverty brought forth perpetual Theft and Rapine, and that from the Widow and fatherless. The Vow of Chastity filled all the Earth with the steam of Brothelsome impurity: and the Vow of blind Obedience, caused hateful and direful Murders, even of Kings, and Gods anointed; Concerning whom, the holy Prophet saith, Touch not mine anointed: and the sacred History reports to all posterity, That David's heart smote him, because he cut off a piece of the King's Garment. These voluntary Exercises and Devotions carry a great show of perfection and merit among worldly people, even as the Pharisaical will-worship in ancient time did: But yet experience taught them (which beheld these things in the height of their pride) that the more these Vows and religious Orders increased, the more Ignorance, Infidelity, Iniquity, and all manner of Plagues multiplied in the World. Antonin. sum. Histor. p. 3. tit. 23. c. 9 §. 5 a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Quidam dixit Vincentio, quid fuit quod postquam fratres praedicatores, & minores venerunt in mundum nunquam fuit bonum tempus, etc. 〈◊〉, Eccles. c. 8. §. 4. Abbess joach. Vbertinus, d. Casalis. Bridget. Revel. Extravag. c. 83. . Jesuit. This sanctity shineth not in all the Children of the Church, but in the more eminent Preachers, and Professors: which kind of sanctity, together with Miracles, if the Church did want, she could not be a sufficient Witness of Truth unto Infidels, who commonly never begin to affect and admire Christianity, but upon the fight 〈◊〉 sucb wonders of sanctity, and other extraordinary works. ANSWER. Sanctity of Grace (which is a perpetual property of the true Church) shineth in all the sound and living members of the Church, Phil. 2. 15. And whereas the measure and degrees thereof are 〈◊〉, the most eminent degree of sanctity is not always found in Preachers, or in Popes, and greater Prelates, or in persons professing Monastical life; but the same may be equal, or greater, in Lay persons, or in people of mean esteem: as appeareth by the state of the jewish Church, in the days of Esay, cap. 1.9. and of the Pharisees, at such time as our Saviour was incarnate. Dominicus Bannes, a famous Schoolman, treating of the sanctity of the Church, saith a Bannes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. p. 101. Summus Pontifex ratione status & obligationis dicitursanctissimus licet actu non sit talis. Symmechus, Papa, d. 40. cap. 1. Non nos. 〈◊〉. Can. Miss. Lect. 49. etc. , That the supreme Bishop, the Pope, is said to be most holy, because of his State and Office, although indeed he is not so. Rodericus speaking of the Clergy of his times, saith b 〈◊〉. Episc. Zamor. Speculum, vit. Lib. 2. cap. 20. pag. 316. , Rectores moderni, non pastors, sed raptores, ovium tonsores, non ad viridia pascua ductores, non piscatores, sed negotiatores, non dispensatores bonorum crucifixi, sed voratores, etc. Our modern Churchmen are not Pastors, but Raveners; they fleece their Sheep, and lead them not to the green Pastures; they are not stewards, but devourers of the goods of Christ crucified, etc. And Laurent. justinianus saith a Laur. Iust. d. compunct & planct. Christi, pag. 575. Clericorum 〈◊〉 maxima pars, 〈◊〉 iacet voluptatibus, & bestiarum more, quasi degentium parum ab illa secularium illorum conversatio distat. Incedunt quotidie per plateas, etc. Theatris & spectaculis intersunt & 〈◊〉 vacant & nugis, etc. tanquam extranei vineam Domini derelinquunt, inemendabiles permanent, 〈◊〉 gerunt cor, obturatas habent aures, sine intellectu sunt syllabarum, tantum proferentes 〈◊〉, ab omni spirituali deficiunt gustu. , The greatest part of Priests and Clerks in our days live voluptuously, and after the manner of Beasts. Paucissimi reperiuntur qui honestè viwnt, rariores autem, qui pabulum salutis gregibus valeant praebere fidelium; Very few are found, which lead an honest life; and a far smaller number of such, as are able to minister the food of salvation to their flocks. In the next words our jesuit affirmeth, That if the Church wanted the sanctity aforesaid, together with Miracles, she could not be a sufficient witness of Truth to Infidels, etc. This Assertion, concerning the perpetuity, and absolute necessity of Miracles in all Ages, is repugnant to the Fathers b August. sup. 〈◊〉. 130. Nec ideo modo non datur spiritus sanctus, quia linguis non loquuntur qui credunt. Ideo enim 〈◊〉 oportebat ut linguis loquerentur, ut significarent omnes gentes credituras, ubi impletum est quod significabatur, miraculum ablatum est. , and to many learned Papists, and it is voluntarily affirmed by our Adversary. First, If the gift and power of Miracles were perpetual, and inseparable from the true 〈◊〉 in all Ages, this would appear by some revelation, or promise of holy Scripture, as well as other gifts and privileges of the same. But there is no revelation, or promise, concerning perpetuity of the gift of Miracles, more than of the gift of Tongues, or of Prophecy, or the giving of the Holy Ghost, by imposition of Hands c August. c. Donlib. 3. c. 16. Neque 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 attestantibus, per manus 〈◊〉 modo datur Spiritus Sanctus, etc. Xaver. lib. 3. ep. 5. Si nos linguam calleremus japonicam, non 〈◊〉 quin 〈◊〉 fierent Christiani, faxit Deus ut brevi eam addiscamus, tum demum aliquam Christianae Rei 〈◊〉 operam, nam 〈◊〉 quidem inter eos tanquam mutae 〈◊〉 versamur. Greg. Moral. lib. 34. c. 3. Stunic. d. Relig. lib. 1. c. 14. Modo a nobis signa atque Prodigia non sunt postulanda, etc. 〈◊〉. Summa. praedic. Ver. Fides, art. 9 Delrio. Disq. Mag. to. 2. lib. 4. c. 4. quaest. 5. sect. 2. pa. 683. , etc. And these gifts were never promised in the Scripture to be perpetual, and are long since ceased. August. Retrac. Lib. 1. cap. 13. Secondly, The Fathers which lived since the four hundreth year, affirm, That outward Miracles, such as the Apostles wrought, were 〈◊〉 a Chrys. in 1. Corinth. Hom. 6. Moral. Quanto certiores & magis necessariae res sunt, tanto fides est minor, & hoc est 〈◊〉 signa in praesentia non fiant. Idem, sup. joh. Hom. 23. Sunt sane & hac nostra aetate qui quaerant, quare & nunc figna non fiunt? Si fidelis es ut 〈◊〉, si Christum diligis ut diligendus est, non indiges signis, signa enim in credulis dantur. in their days, and not absolutely necessary for after times: Gregor. Moral. 27. cap. 11. & Lib. 34. cap. 2. & super Euang. Hom. 29. August. d. vera Relig. cap. 25. & d. Civit. Dei, Lib. 22. cap. 8. & sup. Psal. 130. Chrysost. in Matth. Hom. 4. & Imperfect. in Matth. Hom. 49. & sup. 1. Timoth. Hom. 10. Thirdly, Many learned Papists hold, That the gift of Miracles is rare, and unnecessary, in these later times: Abulensis, Levit cap. 9 q. 14 b Abul. Levit. 9 q. 14. In 〈◊〉 Ecclesia 〈◊〉 ista necessaria, ad introducendam fidé Euangelij, nunc autem quia sufficienter introducta est, non oportet miracula ulla esse. , Trithemias' Abbess, Lib. 8. Q. ad Imperat. Max. q. 3. Roffensis, c. Luther. a. Captiu. Babylon. c. 10. n. 4. pag. 81. Acosta, d. Procur. Indorum Salut. Lib. 2. cap. 8. pag. 218 c Acosta. Non solum Signorum vis nostris temporibus deest, verum pro iis etiam scelera ubique vigent. . Stella in Luc. cap. 11. Cornel. Muss. Conc. Dominic. Pentecost. pag. 412. And some of them censure the reporters of Miracles, as Impostors, and gross Fabulers and Liars. Gerson. Lib. c. Sect. Flagellantium. Canus, Loc. Lib. 11. cap. 6 d 〈◊〉. Nec ego hic libri illius authorem excuso qui speculum exemplorum scribitur, nec historiae eius quae Legenda aurea nuncupatur. In illo enim miraculorum monstra saepius quam vera miracula legas. Hanc scripsit homo ferrei oris & plumbei pectoris. . Ludovicus Viues, Erasmus, Occam, Espenceus e Espenc. in 2. Timoth. 4. Digr. 21. pa. 150. etc. . Fourthly, If Infidels cannot be assured, that the Wonders which they outwardly behold, are the works of the true God f Accost. d. Proc. Indor. Sal. li. 2. c. 9 Et si in praesentia signa viderentur, quis tamen persuaderet? quis externorum aures nobis accomodaret, cum tantopere increbrescat malitia? , and if the same may be the illusions of the Devil g 〈◊〉. sup. Exod. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 p. 11. Hinc aperte cognoscitur, multa videri miracula, quae non sunt, & proprium esse Diaboli, etc. simulare Prophetiam, & miracula. ; then the operations of such Miracles can be no infallible argument of Verity, and consequently, no means of converting Infidels. But Bellarmine affirmeth h Bellarm. d. Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 14. Ante probationem Ecclesiae non est evidens aut certum, 〈◊〉 fidei de vilo 〈◊〉, quod sit verum miraculum. Non constat 〈◊〉 certitudine cui non possit subesse falsum non esse illusionem 〈◊〉. Acosta, d. Proc. Indor. Sal. lib. 2. cap. 9 Denique quid magnorum signorum consirmatione opus est, ubi potius 〈◊〉 acutior 〈◊〉, quae altitudinem doctrinae nostrae aliqua 〈◊〉 〈◊〉? Greg. val. sup. Thom. tom. 3. Disp. 1. q. 1. punct. 4. pag. 99 Ipsa miracula per se, non efficiunt certitudinem infallibilem de doctrina, etc. Biel. in Can. 〈◊〉. Lect. 49. X. Miracula 〈◊〉 fiunt operatione Daemonum, ad fallendum inordinatos cultores, Deo permittente, & exigente talium infidelitate. , That before the approbation of the Church (which Infidels know not) it is not evident and certain by Faith, concerning any Miracle, that the same is true, and Divine; and it is possible for the same to be an illusion of Satan. Jesuit. Holy for doctrine, in regard her Traditions be divine and holy, without any mixture of error. ANSWER. The Church which buildeth itself upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, Eph. 2.20. And which heareth the voice of Christ, john 10.27. is holy, both for life and doctrine. But as holiness of life is compatible with some kind of sin, 1. john 1.8. Even so sanctity of doctrine excludeth not all error. St. Augustine, a man as holy as any since the Apostles, saith, a August. d. Animi. orig. c. 1. Neque enim negare debeo sicut in ipsis moribus, ita multa esse in tam multis opusculis meis, quae possunt iusto iuditio & nulla temeritate culpari. I must not deny, but that as in my manners; even so in my works and writings, many things may justly, and without any temereity be reprehended. Jesuit. For if the Church could deliver, by consent of Ancestors: together with truth, some errors; her Traditions, even about truth, were questionable, and could not be believed upon the warrant of her Tradition. ANSWER. If Ancestors may err and be deceived, than the later Church may upon their reports deliver some errors, together with truth, and yet the Tradition thereof, concerning matters which are grounded upon divine Testimony, is infallible a Hieron. sup. Aggeum c. 1. Nec 〈◊〉 nec maiorum error sequendus est, sed authoritas scripturarum, & Dei docentis Imperium. . The Church may speak of itself, and upon report of them whose Testimony is humane and fallible: And it speaketh also upon the authority of God's word. In the first, it may err and be b Maioranus. d. vero Dei cultu. l. 2. c. 28. Quid igitut agere debem' cum quispiam ex patribus nostris sive unus sive plures aliquid asserrere comperimus quod Catholicae fidei non sit consentaneum? 〈◊〉 illud contemnendum est: utique, etc. At quid de patribus illis, num & ipsi quoque repudiandi sunt? Nequaquam, sed in caeteris omnibus amplectendi sunt & audiend. Etenim quamuis errarunt, errare tamen 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in omnibus, neque semper erraverunt. Greg. Moral. l. 2. c. 41. Abulens. 2. Reg. c. 7. q. 6. deceived, and consequently the Testimony thereof absolutely bindeth not people to believe. But when it confirmeth her doctrine and Tradition by divine Testimony, the Tradition thereof, is the Tradition and voice of God himself, worthy of all acceptation. Neither is her Testimony fallible and doubtful in this latter kind, because of error in the first, any more than the Prophecy of Nathan was fallible, when he spoke by inspiration to David, 2. Sam. 7.5. Although when he formerly answered by a humane spirit, he was deceived. Balaam is a credible witness in all those verities which God put into his mouth, Numb. 23.5, 18. & 24. 1. And yet in other matters which proceeded from himself, he was fallible. And josephus a jew is credited in the Testimony which he gave of Christ, Antiq. lib. 18. c. 4 a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. . although in many other reports he was deceived. The ancient Fathers, justin Martyr, Ireneus, Origen, St. Cyprian, erred in some things b Francisc. Picus. Theorem. 23. Multi erroribus de mille annis, & de iteratione Baptismi, etc. Maculati, beatitudine sunt donati, & ab Ecclesia celebrati: uti Papias, Cyprianus, Victorinus, Ireneus, etc. , and yet their authority in other matters, which they delivered consonantly to holy Scripture, is credible. Our Adversaries confess, that their Popes may err personally, and that their Popes and Counsels may err in the Premises and Arguments c Canus loc. l. 6. c. 8. Stapl. princip. Doct. l. 8. c. 15. & Relect. c. 4. q. 2. p. 467. & 469. 〈◊〉. Tena. Isagog. script. difficul. 1. sect. 4. 〈◊〉. Introduct. Theol. l. 5. c. 7. p. 598. , from which they deduce conclusions of Faith, and yet they will have their definitive sentences to be of infallible authority. Cardinal jacobatius d 〈◊〉. d. Concil. l. 5. ar. 10. p. 293. Etsi possit errare, non sequitur 〈◊〉 propteria possit recusari, ut suspectum: ut in simili 〈◊〉 in matrimonio. in ca Tenor, & ca Lator. & ca consanguinei. d. re iudic. cum simil. , speaking in the Pope's defence, saith; That it followeth not, because one hath erred, that therefore his testimony is altogether invalid, and to be refused: And he confirmeth this assertion by diverse Texts of the Canon Law. Jesuit. And whereas some Protestants affirm that the Church cannot err in fundamental points, but only in things of less moment. The truth is, that in her perpetual Traditions, D. Field 4. Book of the Church, ca 3. and others. she cannot err at all. If the Tradition of the Church delivering a small thing, as received from the Apostles, may be false, one may call into question her Traditions of moment, especially if he please to think them not to be of moment for like as if we admit in the Scriptures errors in small matters, we cannot be sure of its infallibitie in substantial A proof that the perpetual Tradition of the true Church cannot be false in any the least point of faith. See S. Aug. ep. 19 ad Hieronimum. matters. So likewise, if we grant Tradition perpetual to be false in things of less importance, we have no solid ground to defend her Traditions, as assured in other of moment: wherefore as he that should say, That Gods written word is false in some lesser matters; as when it says, That S. Paul left his cloak at Troas, erreth fundamentally, by reason of the consequence, which giveth occasion to doubt of the truth of every thing in Scripture: Even so he that granteth that some part of Traditions, or of the word of God unwritten, may be false, erreth substantially; because he giveth cause to doubt of any Tradition; which yet, as I have showed, is the prime original ground of Faith, more fundamental than the very Scripture, which is not known to be Apostolical but by Tradition: whereas a perpetual Tradition is known to come from the Apostles by its own light. For what more evident than that, that is from the Apostles, which is delivered as Apostolical, by perpetual succession of Bishops, consenting therein. ANSWER. The true Church in her sounder members, erreth not in points fundamental, nor yet in matters of less moment, maliciously, or with pertinacy a Occam. Dial. p. 1. l. 5. c. 28. In Ecclesia militante est certum iuditium quantum ad ea quae necesse est credere explicite ad salutem aeternam consequendam, quia semper usque ad finem mundi erunt aliqui Catholici qui tali modo in vera 〈◊〉 explicit permanebunt. : But the same may be ignorant, and also err in secondary Articles b Sed circa illa quae non sunt necessaria explicite credere non est necesse quod semper in Ecclesia Catholica sit tale iudicium, quìa multa sunt de quibus melius est pie dubitare, quam unam partem contradictionis vel 〈◊〉 temere affirmare. Nequaquam tamen circa quae cunque talia, Catholici omnes aut pertinaciter errabunt aut pertinaciter dubitabunt, etc. pa. 497. Idem pa. 1. l. 2. c. 4. Error qui pertinaciam non habet, non obuiat sanctitati. 〈◊〉. sum. d. Eccl. l. 2. c. 112. Quamuis Ecclesia dono & authoritate divina fulciatur, tamen in quantum est hominum congregatio aliquid ex defectu humano in actibus suis provenit, quod non est divinum. Lombard. l. 4. dist. 18. f. Ita & hic aperte ostenditur, quod non semper sequitur Deus, Ecclesiae iudicium, quae per 〈◊〉 & ignorantiam interdum iudicat. Francisc. Picus. Theorem. 23. Fieri potest, ut vicarium caput aegrotet, quemad. & naturale, & sicut hoc noxios humores, ita illud prava dogmata, immittat in corpus. . The reason of the first is, because the same should then cease to be the true Church, by corrupting the substance of right faith, expressly or virtually; and consequently, there should remain no true Church upon earth, which is impossible. The reason of the second is, because the Church, since the Apostles, is not guided by immediate inspiration, or by Prophetical revelation, but by an ordinary assistance of grace, accompanying the use of right means, which removeth not possibility of error, but leaveth space for humane judgement, being regenerate only in part, Heb. 5.2. Gal. 5.17. Aug. Enchir. c. 63. to work by his proper force and power. Secondly, the Church hath no perpetual Traditions, but such as are either contained in holy Scripture c 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 74. 〈◊〉 Traditio, etc. Si in Euangclio precipitur aut in Apostolorum Epistolis, aut actibus continetur, etc. obseruetur divina haec & sancta 〈◊〉. Idem. serm. d. 〈◊〉. Christiana religio invenit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Scriptura, 〈◊〉 doctrinarum regulas emanasse, & hic nasci & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quic quid Ecclesiastica 〈◊〉 disciplina. , or which are subseruient to maintain the faith, verity, and authority of the holy Scriptures, and the doctrine thereof. Thirdly, whereas the jesuit saith: That even as no untruth can be admitted in the holy Scripture, in regard of such things as are of the least moment, without overthrowing the total authority thereof: so likewise no error, great or small, can be admitted in the doctrine and Tradition of the present Church, because upon the same will follow the subversion of all her Tradition, even in matters essential. I answer: That there is not the same reason of the Scripture and the Church, for the Scripture is totally and perfectly divine, and must always be so esteemed; and to admit any error or possibility thereof in Scripture, were to make God a liar, and consequently, to overthrow all faith a Aug. d. Doctr. Christiana lib. 1. ca 37. Titubabit auté fides si Scripturarú vaccillat authoritas 〈◊〉. in Math. hom. 1. . But the present Church is only the servant of God, and of his word b Chrys. d. Lazaro. hom. 4. Etiam fi mortuus reniviscat, etiam si Angelus de Coelo descédat maxime omnium credendum est Scriptures, nam Angelorum herus, mortuorum paritèr ac viventium Dominus ipse eas condi dit. , john 10.27. and hath no credit or authority but from it, and although the same may err in some things, yet there remaineth always a higher and more sovereign judge c Aug. c. Faust. Manich. li. 11. ca 5. Tanquam in sede quadam sublimitur constituta est, cui 〈◊〉 omnis fidelis & pius intellectus. , to wit, the holy Ghost speaking in and by the Scriptures, to whom Christians, desirous of truth, may appeal d Aug. in Psalm. 22. Optatus Milevitanus c. Parmen. li. 5. De Coelo, quaerendus est judex, & qui in tumulo quiescit tacitis tabulis loquitur viws, voluntas eius velut in testamento sic inquiratur. , and by whose sentence the Doctrine and Traditions of the present Church are to be judged. Whosoever admitteth any error or untruth in the holy Scripture, taketh away all authority from that which is the prime foundation of supernatural verity e Aug. d Trinit. lib. 3. ca 11. Nec relicto solidaméto divini eloquij etc. . But he that admitteth error or fallibility of judgement in some Traditions and Doctrines of the Pastors of the present Church, doth only make the credit of a secondary and inferior witness, subject to trial and examination of an higher judge. And even as in building the rule and measure of proportion must always be even and right in itself, but the workman's hand may possibly lean or shake, and apply his rule amiss: so likewise the holy Scriptures which are the principles of Theology f Cameracensis 1. Sent. q. 1. Art. 1. Principia Theologica sunt ipsae sacri Canonis veritates, quoniam ad ipsas fit ultimata resolutio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & ex eye 〈◊〉 singulae propositiones, Theologiae deducuntur. , and the most exact balance and measure of divine Verity (as S. Chrysostome speaketh g Chrys. 2. Cor. hom. 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Aug. c. Don. lib. 2. ca 6. Afferamus divinam stateram de Scripturis sanctis. 〈◊〉 serm. d. Bapt. Christiana religio invenit ex hac Scriptura, omnium Doctrinarum regulas emanasse, & hic nasci, & huc 〈◊〉 quicquid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina. ) must be free from all obliquity of error, and to admit the least error in the Scripture overthroweth the foundation of Faith. But the Ministry and Tradition of the Church is like an Artificers hand, which may sometimes lean and go awry, and yet the foundation of Verity abideth firm in the prime authentical rule, and by the same, the error of men's Tradition and Doctrine may be corrected. Fourthly the jesuit affirmeth, That Tradition (to wit, of the Church since the Apostles) is the prime original ground of Faith, more fundamental than the Scripture. This assertion is Antichristian and impudent a Hieron. sup. Aggeum. c. 1. Quae absque authoritate & testimonio scripturarum quasi Traditione Apostolica sponte reperiút atquè confingunt, percutit gladi Dei. , for can any thing be more fundamental than the foundation b Bassolis, praef. Prologue. sup. Sent. Quartum principale. De primo nota quod fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis. Fundamentum enìm Scripturae sacrae, Christus est, petra solidissima supra quam fundata est veritas Scripturae. , or of greater authority than the word of God? S. Peter speaking of the Prophetical Scriptures, equalleth the same to the sensible voice of God, which was uttered in the Apostles audience from heaven, Math. 3.17. & c. 17.5. saying, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, We have the most sure word of Prophecy, etc. upon these words S. Augustine d. verb. Apostoli, serm. 29. commenteth as followeth: Et cum dixisset hanc vocem audivimus de Coelo delatam, subiunxit atque ait, habemus certiorem propheticum sermonem, sonuit illa vox de Coelo, certior est propheticus sermo, when the Apostle had said, We heard this voice from heaven; he addeth further, and saith, We have a more sure word of prophecy. That voice sounded from heaven; and yet the prophetical word is more sure: he said more sure, not better or truer, because that word from heaven was as good and as profitable as the word of prophecy; Why therefore more sure? Because the hearer was more confirmed by it c Certioré sane dixit certiorem non meliorem non veriorem. Tam enim verus ille sermo de Coelo, quam sermo Propheticus, tàm bonus tàm utilis. Quid est ergo certiorem, nisi in quo magis confirmetur Auditor. . Our Saviour himself in the Gospel examineth the Traditions of the pharisees, and of the jewish Church then being, by the Scriptures, Math. 5.6. and 7. & Ch. 12.5. & c. 15.4. & 19.4. And the holy Ghost in the new Testament, both in the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, confirmeth the Truth which was taught, by the authority of the Scriptures, and Christ jesus perpetually submitteth himself and his doctrine to the trial of the Scriptures, and the Apostles after him did the like, Acts 26.22. The ancient Fathers affirm, that the Scriptures are of most eminent authority d Aug. d. 〈◊〉. Dei, li. 11. c. 3. & lib. 14. ca 7. , and that we are above all things to give credit to them e Chrys. d. Lazaro Hom. 4. , and that they are the mouth of God f Rupert in Mat. lib. 4. cap. 5. ver. 2. Quod est illud os Domini, nisi 〈◊〉 per quas nobis loquitur 〈◊〉 , and the very hand of God g Chrys. Hom. d. Expuls'. ipsius. Lego manum cius, etc. Aug. 〈◊〉. 144. Quoddam Chyrographum Dei quod omines transeuntes legerent & viam promissionis 〈◊〉 tenerent. , and Paul, and Peter, and john, and the whole company of the Prophets do speak with us by them h Chrys. in Rom. hom. 30. , and that Faith itself, by which a just man liveth, is conceived by them a Aug. d. Civit-dei li. 19 ca 18. , and the Church it self is demonstrated (to wit, tanquam à priori) by them b Idem ep. 50. & d. unit. Eccles. c. 3. . But on the contrary, Traditions receive their authority from the Scriptures, and may not be admitted unless they agree with the Scriptures: And in our Adversary's Tenet, men must first believe the authority of the Church before they can receive or believe Tradition: from all which it followeth, that Tradition of the present Church is neither the prime original ground of Faith, nor yet more fundamental, concerning Faith, than the Scripture. The Trident Council held it sufficient to equal Tradition with the Scriptures. This new master with Baronius c Annal. tom. 1. Anno. 53. n. 11. & Pighius d Pighius concrovers. 3. preferreth them before the Scriptures. These men perceive that the Roman Faith cannot subsist, unless they depress the written word of God, and exalt the profane, bastardly, and Apocryphal Traditions of the Pope. They say the Scripture is a breathless lump e Coster. Enchirid. loc. d. Pontif. pa. 135. a nose of wax f Pigh. controuers. 3. pa. 92. Idem Hierarch. Epistol. Nuncupator. 〈◊〉. disp. 2. d. fid. pag. 21. Ipsae Scripturae quoad bonam partem, difficiles sunt, obscurae & ambiguae, inflar nasi cerei, & regulae lesbiae, susque deque trahi possunt ab impijs. , a leaden rule g Andrad. defence. lib. 2. pag. 257. Neque in libris ipsis quib' sacra mysteria conscripta sút, quicquam inest divinitatis, quae nos ad credendum quae illis continentur, religiono aliqua constringat, etc. Bannes 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pag. 181. Cum sitelinguis & mortua, seipsam 〈◊〉 non valet. . Andradius writeth, That in the Books of the Scriptures themselves, there is no divinity or any thing else binding us to believe h Stapl. Princip. Doctr. lib. 12. ca 2. pa. 444. . Stapleton saith, That being considered as written, it can no way be called the Temple or Tabernacle of the holy Ghost i Bos. d. Signis Eccles. tom. 2. lib. 16. ca 10. . Bosius saith, The holy Ghost resideth in the Church more effectually and nobly than in the Books of the Scripture k Maioranus Clip. lib. 2. cap. 28. Vnus Ecclesiae consensus qui nunquam caruit spiritu Deipluris apud nos esse debet, quam omnes elingues, & muti codices, & quotquot fuerunt sunt & erunt, unquam scripta volumina, quae hominum ingenijs semper materiam contentionis prebuerunt. . And Majoranus hath these words, The consent of the Church alone which never wanted the spirit of God, aught to be of greater esteem with us, than all mute and tongueless Books, and than all the written volumes which are or ever were, and which have in all ages ministered fuel of contention to the wits of men l 〈◊〉. Def. 〈◊〉. d. verb. Dei, lib. 4. cap. 4. & cap. 12. Putasnè plures haereses & sectas exorituras fuisse, si nulla penitus Scriptura extitisset, quam nunc cum Scriptura mortalibus è Coelo data est? Ego certe propior sum existimanti, pauciores, 〈◊〉 futuras. . And Gretsar the jesuit, There would have been fewer contentions in the world (as I suppose) if there had been no Scripture at all. jacob Brower a Reader of Douai m Clavis, Apostolica ar. 8. Nomine Ecclesiae aptè intelligi potest, ipse universalis Ecclesiae pastor, etc. atquè adeo dictum Augustini est, Idem ac si diceret Euangelio non crederem, nisi me 〈◊〉 quinti aut alterius Pontificis moveret authoritas. saith, I would not believe the Gospel, did not the authority of Pope Paul the fifth move me. And lastly it is one of the dictates of Pope Hildebrand, canonised by Baronius n Baron. Annal. tom. 11. Anno 1076. n. 33. Quod 〈◊〉 capitulum nullusquè liber 〈◊〉 habeatur, absquè illius authoritate. , That no Chapter or Book of Scripture must be esteemed canonical without his authority. I doubt not but that Romists are able with fair glosses and distinctions to salve these blasphemies a 〈◊〉 Animaduers. c. Par. Disp. 1. c. 2. Thes. 7. pag. 12. , and to reconcile dark nesse with light, but he that diggeth a pit for people to fall into (althought he cover the same with some superficial tecture) is accused by the ancient sentence of divine Law. Exod. 21.33. Towards the end of this Section, the jesuit addeth, First, That the Scripture is not known to be Apostolical but by Tradition. This is false, for the Scripture is known to come from the Apostles, by inward grounds and testimonies contained in itself, and by the virtue and effects of it, as well as by the Tradition of the Church. Secondly, it is most untrue, that Tradition is known to come from the Apostles by it own light, but not Scripture: for what internal light hath Tradition more than, or above the Scripture? If it have, than the articles of Popish Tradition, Purgatory, adoration of Images, etc. are more manifest than the articles which Scripture teacheth concerning the incarnation and resurrection of Christ, than Heaven and Hell, etc. Also sacred Scripture is received as divine by all Christians, Popish Tradition only by some. The Catalogue of Romish Tradition could never to this day be specified, and distinctly assigned b 〈◊〉. Lo. come. d. Script. n. 66. Nec dum Pontificij integram farraginem Traditionum svarum enumerare vel potuerunt vel voluerunt (qua de re Colloq. Ratisbon) verùm quasi communem hanc topicam solum servant, ut quicquid ex Scriptura probare non possunt, ex Traditione ortum esse dicant. , but the Canon of holy Scripture may. Moreover, holy Scripture hath the perpetual and unanimous consent of the Primitive Church, Popish Tradition hath not. Again, Bellarmine confesseth c Bellarm. d. verb. Dei, li. 1. ca 2. At 〈◊〉 is Scriptures quae Propheticis & 〈◊〉 literis continentur, nihil est notius, nihil est certius. , that nothing is better known, and more certain than holy Scripture: but if nothing be better known, than nothing hath clearer light. Thirdly, the confirmation of the former (to wit, What more evident, etc.) is insufficient, because that which is known to come from the Apostles by their own immediate testimony in writing, is more evidently known to come from them, than that which is affirmed to come from them, only by the report of men which are deceivable. Divine testimony maketh things more certain and infallible than humane. The testimony of the Apostles extant in writing is totally divine, the report of Bishops is in part humane d Lombard. sent. lib. 4. d. 18. F. Non sempèr Deus sequitur Ecclesiae iudicium, quae per surreptionem & ignorantiam interdum iudicat, Deus autèm semper iudicat secundùm veritatem. Panormitan in Decret. 5. d. sent. Excom. c. 28. judicium Ecclesiae aliquandò 〈◊〉 opinionem, quae saepè fallit & fallitur. Veritas quandoquè later Ecclesiam. . Jesuit. And this may be clearly proved, to omit other pregnant testimonies, by the words of our Saviour in the last of Matthew: Going into the whole world, teaching all nations, baptising them, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost: teaching them to keep all that I have commanded you all days, even to the consummation of the world. A promise of wonderful comfort unto them that pawn their souls and salvation upon God's word, delivered by perpetual Tradition. For in this sentence, appear these fix things: First, That there is still a Christian Church all days, not wanting in the world, so much as one day, till the consummation of the world. ANSWER. The place of Saint Matthew, chapter 28. 19, 20. proveth: First, that the holy Apostles received a Commission and Mandate from Christ, to preach the Gospel to all nations, both jews and Gentiles, and to baptise them, In the name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghost. Mark 16. 15, 16. Luke 24.27. Acts 1.8. Rom. 1.14. Secondly, that our Saviour promised his Apostles a perpetual Gratia gratis data. Gratia gratum faciens. Aquin. 1.2. q. 111. ar. 1. Cum gratia ad hoc ordinetur ut homo reducatur in Deum, ordine quodam hoc agitur, ut scilicet quidam per alios in Deum reducantur. Secundum hoc igitur duplex eft gratia: una quidem per quam ipse homo Deo coniungitur, quae vocatur gratia gratum faciens. àlia vero per quam unus homo cooperatur alteri, ad hoc quod ad Deum reducatur: hoc autem donum vocatur gratia gratisdata. presence, and assistance of his divine power and grace, both in regard of the gifts of edification, Acts 2. 4. And in respect of the grace of inward sanctification, john 17.17. Thirdly, because the Apostles were mortal, and not to remain always personally upon earth, and other Pastors a Aug. Ep. 80. & in Psal. 56. 〈◊〉. Math. c. 28. must succeed in the office of Ministry, the promise of Christ touching his spiritual presence, and assistance of grace, is extended to these successors, and when they teach and baptise in such manner as Christ commanded, divine grace is present to their Ministerial actions b Leo Epist. 69. Ego vobiscum sum usque ad consummationem seculi: ut si quid perseruitutem, nostram, bono ordine & gratulanti impletur affectu, non ambigamus per Spiritum sanctum 〈◊〉 donatum. , and the holy Ghost coworketh with them. Fourthly, But yet succeeding Pastors received not the same measure of divine Grace with the Apostles a 〈◊〉. cp. 19 〈◊〉. in Ps. 86. Fundamenta 〈◊〉 in montibus fanctis. Quos nos dicere 〈◊〉 fundamenta? Apostolos, in 〈◊〉 erant fundamenta, etc. 〈◊〉 quia 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 fundamento alius aurum alius argentum, etc. Diligit Dominus Portas Syon super omnia Tabernacula, etc. : neither had they immediate and Prophetical revelation, but only a measure of Grace, ordinary, mediate, and in some sort conditional. Also, the said Promise, Matth. 28. 20. was common and equal to all the Apostles, and to the successors of one Apostle, as well as of another: to the successors of Saint james, and Saint john, etc. as well as to the successors of Saint Peter b Orig. in 〈◊〉. tr. 1. Quod si super unum illum Petrum tantum existimas 〈◊〉 totam Ecclesiam, quid 〈◊〉 es de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & Apostolorum unoquoque? Alioqui num audebimus dicere, quod adversus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non praevaliturae sint portae inferorum, adversus caeteros autem Apostolos & praesectos 〈◊〉 sint, ac non potius, in omnibus, & singulis corum, etc. . Fifthly, Notwithstanding the said promise, Bishops and Pastors succeeding the Apostles, were in respect of themselves subject to errors c Hieron. in Psal. 86. Et principum, hoc est Apostolorum & Euangelistarum horum qui fuerunt, in ea, videte quid dicat, Qui fuerunt, non qui sunt, ut exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud posteal 〈◊〉, abscindatur, non habeat postea authoritatem. Quamuis ergo 〈◊〉 sit aliquis post Apostolos, quamuis disertus non. 〈◊〉 authoritatem, Quoniam Domin' narrat in Scriptura populorum, & Principum qui fuerunt in ca , and their judgement in matters of Faith was not absolutely infallible, like the Apostles; but so far forth only, as they walked in the footsteps, and followed the Doctrine delivered by the Apostles. Our Saviour promised, that he would be always with the Apostles, even to the consummation of the World; partly, in their personal Teaching, whiles they themselves lived in the World; and partly, in their permanent Doctrine, contained in the Scriptures of the New Testament d Cyril. in Esaiam, lib. 2. c. 12. 〈◊〉 scripta 〈◊〉 (Apost.) nos 〈◊〉, ac 〈◊〉 & constantia fidei, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, pag. 103. , when the same was truly delivered by their successors. And he will be also with succeeding Pastors all Ages, according to such a measure of Grace and assistance, as is sufficient for the edifying of the Church, if they for their own part e Cordub. Arm. Fid. Quaest 2. Prop. 9 Promissiones Dei generales, de co 〈◊〉 ipse non solus, sed 〈◊〉 & cum 〈◊〉 nostris concurrendo in nobis facturus est, sub hac conditione sunt intelligendae, si videlicet homo faciat quod in se est, ad talem finem & effectum. be studious to learn divine Truth from the holy Apostles, and careful to preach the same to others: But his promise concerning immunity from error, and mortal offences, is not so absolute to successors, as it was to the Apostles themselves. Sixtly, Many ancient Expositors affirm, That the Promise of Christ, Matth. 28.20. is especially made to the just and faithful f Leo. serm. 2. c. 3. d. Resurrect. Chrys. Matth. Hom. 91. Hieron. sup. Matth. 28. Basil. Hom. 29. ; and some of them say, to the Elect g Druthmar. Matth. 28. Est etiam cum Reprob is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Sed aliter est cum 〈◊〉, etc. Paschas. 〈◊〉. in Matth. 28. Se cum suis elecus in . only. And Occam affirmeth, That if there should be found in the whole World but one Orthodox Bishop, or but one such Priest a 〈◊〉, Dial. p. 1. lib. 5. c. 31. , and a small number of Lay people b Id. lib. 2. c. 25. & lib. 4. c. 9 & lib. 5. c. 3. Non est necessarium credere implicite nec explicit, multitudinem Christianorum non errare nec errasse in fide, nec maiorem partem: pro eo quod, fides Catholica in 〈◊〉 potest seruari, pag. 451. Fides quam B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, praedicavir & docuit, nunquam deficiet, sed in aliquibus Christianis Clericis vel Laicis, 〈◊〉 vel mulieribus, usque ad finem seculi perdurabit. 473. Quamuis maior pars, immo tota fere multitudo Cloricorum, possit contra fidem errare, & fidem Catholicam pertinaciter 〈◊〉, tamen semper 〈◊〉 saltim 〈◊〉 Episcopus sacerdos Catholicus, qui illa quae ordinis sunt, licite valeat exercere. 502. Sicut in Idiotis (Sacerdotibus ac Religiosis & Magistratibus repudiatis) fidem primitus fundavit Catholicam: Ita omnibus literatis & potentibus datis in reprobum sensum, potest dare 〈◊〉 simplices illiteratos & rusticos, in aedificationem Ecclesiae Orthodoxae. 498. , professing right Faith in Articles essential, and willing to embrace all other Divine Vertie, when the same should be manifested unto them, this were sufficient to make good, Christ his Promise. Matth. 28.20. In the next passage, our Adversary inferreth and deriveth certain Propositions from the former Text of Matth. 28. 20. First he saith, There is still a Christian Church all days, not wanting so much as one day in the World, till the consummation thereof. I answer, That there is still in the World a common Christian Church, wherein some believers hold the substance of right Faith: But there is not perpetually in the World a Church, the more potent and mayor part whereof believeth and professeth right Faith, without error, in all points, and so infallible in all her Doctrine, as was the Primitive Church c Kling. Loc. Com. lib. 3. cap. 32. Apud viros bonos & aequos maioris authoritatis est iudicium illorum Scripturae qui sanctis illis Apostolis ac Martyribus viciniores 〈◊〉, quorum vita & affectio erat purior & multo sanctior, quam huius populi nunc superstitis, qui certe vix rationem 〈◊〉 habet ad purum Vinum si cum priori illo conferatur. , which enjoyed the immediate and actual preaching of the Apostles. Jesuit. Secondly, This Church is ever visible and conspicuous: For the Church which always teacheth and christeneth all Nations, to which Christ saith, I am always with you, not with you sitting in corners, or hidden under ground, but with you, exercising the Office enjoined you in the words precedent, Docete omnes gentes, baptizantes eos, etc. ANSWER. The Church is ever visible, according to some degree of visibility: but this Scripture teacheth not, that the true Church is always largely and gloriously visible. The same doth not actually in every Age teach and christian all Nations; and the Roman Church for sundry Ages passed, teacheth and christeneth few or none within Anatolia, and other large Provinces, living in subjection to the Grand Signior, or Emperor of Constantinople. And as Christ doth not say verbally in this Text, I am always with you, sitting in corners, so he doth not say, I am always with you, when you are carried upon men's shoulders, and tread upon Emperor's necks, and divide and share the Kingdoms of the World, and gather endless Riches, by selling Pardons, and preaching Purgatory. But yet of the two, it is far more agreeable to the Divine Goodness (who is a Father of the poor and oppressed) to be present to his little flock in persecution, and when it flieth as a Lamb from the Wolf, and hideth itself from the Oppressor, Apoc. 12. 14, than that he hath entailed his perpetual presence upon ambitious and oppressing Tyrants, which styled themselves Pastors, and were ravening Wolves, Scribes and Pharisees, imposing insupportable burdens upon others, and not moving them with one of their own a joh. Sarisbur. Policrat. lib. 6. ca 24. Romana Ecclesia quae matter omnium Ecclesiarum est, se non tam matrem exhibet quam noverram. Sedent in ea Scribae & Pharasaei, ponentes onera importabilia, in humeris hominum: quae digito non contingunt. Dominantur in Clero, nec forma sunt 〈◊〉, etc. Concutiunt Ecclesias, 〈◊〉 excitant, collidunt Clericos, & popularium laboribus, & miserijs afflictorum nequaquam compatiuntur: Ecclesiarum laetantur spolijs, & quaestum reputant pietatem, iustitiam, non tam veritate quam pretio redimunt. Nocent saepius & eo Daemonas imitantur, tunc prodesse putantur cum nocere desistunt. Ipse Romanus Pontifex omnibus gravis & intolerabilis est. jacob. Almain. Quaest Vesp. utinam Zelus Domus Dei, nostri temporis Praelatos comederet, & Zelarent salutem Christi fidelium plusquam pecuniam? Ibid. Cum caput ac si esset in destructionem, sibi potestas data, & none in aedificationem, in eos qui salutem corpotis intendunt saevire videatur, & pro eo quod bene arguunt plectere paena. Sext. Decretal. c. Fundamenta. Gloss. Roma fundata a praedonibus, adhuc de primordijs retinet, dicta Roma quasi rodens manus. Roma manus rodit, quod rodere non valet odit. Auentin. Annal. Boior. lib. 4. pag. 322. Faxit Deus Opt. Max. & meliorem mentem det Pontif. nostris, uti omisso luxu fastuque divitem Principem 〈◊〉, sequi desinant, fallacissimi mundi huius caduca atque fragilia bona fastidiant. Christum pauperem 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bibere, & eius crucem humeris portare, tandem discant. Ita fiet, ut vulgo male ultra non audiant, atque castigentur, quod gregem Christianum populum Dei peculiarem compilent, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, & tanquam escam 〈◊〉 denorent, adeo ut tolerabilior miseris foret conditio sub Imperio Turcarum. fingers. And there is no cause, why the good God, which was present with Daniel in the Lion's Den, and with jonas in the Whale's Belly, and with joseph in the Dungeon, and with job upon the Dunghill, should in the days of the oppressing Antichrist, withdraw his presence and assistance from his poor flock, yea, although it were sitting in corners, and hidden under ground. Jesuit. Thirdly, This Church is ever Apostolical: for to his Apostles Christ said, I am always with you until the consummation of the World; not with you in your own persons, but with you in your successors, in whom you shall continue to the World's end: Ergo, a lawful company of Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, succeeding the Apostles, must be perpetually in the World. ANSWER. First, The Church may be called Apostolical, because of Faith, Plantation, and external Ordination of Pastors. According to Faith and Doctrine, in all the main and substantial Articles, the true Church is ever Apostolical. In regard of Plantation, the Primitive Church was Apostolical, because it was immediately planted and watered by the holy Apostles. But Tertullian affirmeth, That many particular Tertullian. d. Prescript. Ca 32. Ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 provocabuntur ab illis Ecclesijs, quae licet nullum ex Apostolis, vel Apostolicis authorem suum proferant, ut multo posteriores, quae denique quotidie instituuntur: tamen in 〈◊〉 fide conspirantes, non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. Churches were not thus planted by Apostles, or Apostolical persons, and yet they were truly Apostolical, by reason of consanguinity of Doctrine with the holy Apostles. According to the third manner, to wit, in respect of external Ordination, and Imposition of Hands, received from Bishops, lineally succeeding the Apostles, a false and corrupt Church may be Apostolical (as I have formerly proved.) And it is not impossible for a true Church to succeed or come out of a false, or for a corrupt Church to reform itself. And if this happen, there is required no new Ordination of Pastors, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any Miracles, to confirm their Vocation; but they which 〈◊〉 ordained in a corrupt Church, returning to the right Faith and worship of God, make their former Ordination more legitimate, holy, and effectual. The jesuit in the words ensuing, collecteth from our Saviour's promise, I will be with you, etc. that there must ever be a company of Bishops and Pastors, succeeding the Apostles, because Christ said to them and their successors, I will be with you, etc. But if this collection be good, than every one of the Apostles must have Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, succeeding them in right faith, to the end of the world, for Christ spoke to them all in general, and also distributively to every of them, etc. But the Papals themselves at this day, exclude all the successors of other Apostles, excepting Saint Peter. Neither yet doth our Saviour limit his presence and assistance to general Counsels, or definitive sentences of Popes, but he speaketh of Preaching and Baptising: and therefore if his presence with Pastors and Bishops, do free them from all error, it must free them in Preaching and writing Books, as well as sitting in Council. Also they to whom Christ is always present, are not of infallible judgement, or free from error in all matters, but only from damnable and malicious error, as appeareth by Saint Cyprian, Saint Augustine, and all the elect of God. Wherefore this promise, in regard of the perfection thereof, did appertain to the Apostles themselves: and in regard of the verity of it, and for such a measure of assistance as is necessary to constitute a number of faithful people, more or less, in every age to serve Christ truly, in the substance of faith and piety, it is fulfilled always, even to the end of the world. But because our Adversaries insist so much upon this Text, to raise their visible and personal succession; I will reduce the Argument which they draw out of it, into form, and then accommodate mine Answer. If Christ will be with his Apostles all days, to the end of the world, than the Apostles, not continuing alive themselves, they must remain in Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, locally and personally succeeding them to the end of the world. But the first is true. Ergo, etc. First, if the consequence of this Argument were good, than all and every one of the Apostles must continue always, to the consummation of the world, in Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, lineally succeeding them, which Papals themselves deny a 〈◊〉. d. Ecclesia l. 4. c. 8. Omnes Ecclesiae Patriarchales, habuerunt per longa tempora Episcopos manifeste Haereticos, & proindè interupta est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 successio. 〈◊〉. Princip. Doctr. l. 4. c. 18. . Secondly, lineal and personal succession, is not the sole means, by which the Apostles, after their decease, remain in the world; but they remain also in the world by their Scriptures, and also by the faith of Believers, receiving and obeying their doctrine b 〈◊〉. Com. Math. 28.20. Ex hoc intelligitur quod usque ad finem seculi, non sunt 〈◊〉 in mundo qui divina mansione & in habitatione sunt digni. Chrys. in Math. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. De functi quoque multum valent prodesse hijs, qui eorum imperio paruerint. Bell. d. 〈◊〉. Beat. li. 1. c. 6. B. Paulus adhuc bene operatur, exemplo & Scriptis. . Thirdly, that which is promised upon condition, is not absolute, until the condition be fulfilled. The presence of Christ is promised to the Apostles successors conditionally, c Orig. in Math. Hom. 1. Quoniam qui Episcoporum locum sibi vendicant utuntur eo dicto sicut Petrus, & Claves regni caelorum à saluatore acceperunt, docentque ea, quae ab illis ligata fuerint, hoc est condemnata eadem, & in caelis ligata, rurfus ea quae soluta fuerint ab ipsis, eadem & in caelis esse soluta, dicendum est illos rectè loqui, si pariter & facta habuerint ob quae dictum est illi qui erat Petrus, tu es Petrus: sique tales fuerint, ut à Christo super eos aedificetur Ecclesia, & ad eos illud iure referri possit. Nichol. Clemang. Disp. 〈◊〉. matter. Concil. General. Illis adest spiritus, illos dirigit, atque ad finem ducit salutarem, qui dignum in se hospitium illi paraverunt, seque eius aspiratione arque visitatione (quantum in eis erat) per bona opera dignos fecerunt. Illos autem quomodo audiat, aut vifiter aut illustrer, qui sibi adversantur, illumque cum in se non possident, in aliis extinguere nituntur, qui pro igne charitatis, ardore sunt ambitionis inflammati. and as they were one with the Apostles by imitation, and subordination: that is, so far as they walked in their steps, and conformed their Doctrine and Ministry to the pattern received from them. But successors did not always perform this condition: neither did the promise enable them to do it, without their own care and endeavour, which was contingent and separable, and therefore many times deficient. Fourthly, Christ's presence always to the consummation of the world, with some Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, lineally succeeding the Apostles, proveth not that these Bishops and Pastors, cannot err in any part of their Doctrine; for than no particular Bishops, having Apostolical ordination, could fall into any error: but it showeth only, that Christ cooperates with them, in such Ministerial duties and actions as they perform according to his Ordinance: And when they preach his Doctrine, and administer his Sacraments, he himself will add virtue and grace to their actions, being duly performed d Greg. 〈◊〉. Catech. cap. 33. In spirituali modo regenerationis promisit se ad futurum his quae facta sunt, & imprimit operi 〈◊〉 suam, voluntate nostra accedente ad id quod intenditur. Atque id quod dixit Christus, inprimis videtur referendum esse, ad 〈◊〉 suam in 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 operibus, in quibus quod cernitur corruptibile est, quod latet 〈◊〉. . Jesuit. Fourthly, this Church is universal, 〈◊〉 in mundum universum, Marc. 16. 15. where I will be always with you. ANSWER. The true Church is universal, according to the manner formerly declared. But the Argument taken out of Saint Mark 16.15. proveth not, that it is ever actually universal, in respect of place, and multitude of professors. For as it followeth not, that because Christ said he would be with Saint Paul when he preached at Corinth, (Act. 18.10.) therefore he will be ever at Corinth: So likewise it is inconsequent to infer, Christ said he would be present in all places of the world with the Apostles, when they baptised and preached as he commanded them: Ergo, he will always be present in those places, although their successors neglect his commandment. Is God ever in the dungeon in Egypt, because he was ever there, whilst joseph, a just person, continued in prison. The promise of spiritual presence, is annexed to the work of Preaching and Baptising, wheresoever it is performed, according to the Divine Ordinance: but that which in some ages, hath been done in many places, may at other times be performed in few. Jesuit. Fiftly, the Church is one, not divided into parts, because it teacheth and believeth uniformly, all that Christ delivered and commanded, without factions, Sects or parts, about matters of faith. ANSWER. It is not affirmed, neither can it be concluded out of Mat. 28. that the visible Church in all ages of the world, teacheth and believeth, either uniformly, a Cusan. Concord. Cath. l. 1. c. 5. Licet fides una sit funiculus 〈◊〉, tamen aliquando varietas opinionum absque pertinacia, stat, cum unitate. or expressly and distinctly, all that Christ delivered or commanded: and in the same Churches which were planted by the Apostles, there was discord, among infirm Christians, 1. Cor. 1.11. Jesuit. Sixtly, this Church is always holy for doctrine, never delivering or teaching any falsehood: I who am the truth, am always with you, teaching all nations. Holy also for life, Christ the Holy of Holies, assisting and making her able to convert Infidels, which it could not well do, without signs and tokens of wonderful sanctity, at the least, in her more eminent Preachers. ANSWER. Although the true Church is always holy for Doctrine, yet it is not perfectly and in the highest degree ever so a 〈◊〉. Relect. c. 1. quaest. 4. ar. 5. notab. 1. Est quoque & vocatur interdum vera Ecclesia propter ipsam doctrinae perfectissimam puritatem & Sacramentorun usum religiosissimum. Quae sanè perfectio non est omnium temporum & locorum: quia & iuxtà Catholicum intellectum de quibusdam doctrinae partibus dubitari interdùm potest, & a magnis viris erratum est, manente etiàm penes tales vera Ecclesia. . And it is most inconsequent to argue, Christ which is the Truth is ever with the Church, Ergo the Church cannot err or teach any falsehood, for Christ is always with the faithful, Ephes. 3. 17. yet just and faithful people may err. Because Christ was with the Apostles by miraculous inspiration, therefore they could not err, or deliver any falsehood great or small, but he is present with the sounder part of the Church militant since the Apostles by ordinary grace and assistance, which freeth the same from damnable and malicious error, but not from all error. And this assistance of Grace is greater or less, according to the good pleasure of Christ, and the disposition of his people b Chrys. Serm. 20. sup. Rom. Tametsi enim gratia sit & ipsa, non tamen simplicitèr effunditur sed mensuram à recipientibus se accipiens, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quantum invenerit sibi oblatum fidei vasculum. , which are compassed about with ignorance and infirmity, and at some times better or worse qualified than at other. Also the true Church, in firmissimis suis, in her firmest members, is 〈◊〉 holy for life, because the Holy of Holiest sanctifieth and purgeth the same by his Word, Sacraments, and Grace, Eph. 5.26. Tit. 3.5, 6. But it is not absolute in holiness, jam. 3.2. 1. joh. 1.8. c Bernard. in Psalm. Qui. hab. Serm. 10. Nisi esset hic, quaedam ut ita 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 etc. nor yet in every age so remarkably holy, that it is thereby able to convert Infidels d sunt Christiani etc. Maior continentia invenitur apud illos qui sunt in Schismate. Id. 1. Cor. ho. 36. Cyprian. d. Laps. n. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. Dei lib. 3. Ipsa Dei Ecclesia quae in omnibus debet esse placatrix Dei, quid est aliud, quid est aliud pene omnis coetus 〈◊〉, quam sentina vitiorum? . And the true Church hath not in all ages the gift of Miracles e Chrys. Imp. Math. Hom. 49. Nunc autem signorum operatio sunt Christiani. Greg. Mor. lib. 34. ca 3. A sancta Ecclesia . , and the pretext of Miracles is common to deceivers, Math. 24.24, 25. 2. Thessal. 2.9. Apoc. 13.13. And Suares f Suar. Def. Fid. Cath. lib. 1. ca 7. cap. 44. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de authoritate 〈◊〉 doctoris haeretici, illos etc. quasi nec hoc scriptum sit, venturos multos, qui 〈◊〉 virtutes maximas aederent, ad fallaciam muniendam corruptae praedicationis, etc. the jesuit saith, Haec adulterari possunt, & ita exterius fingi ut non sint necessaria signa verae Fidei, Miracles may so be adulterated and externally feigned, that they may not be necessary signs of Faith. And Canus g 〈◊〉 loc. lib. 11. ca 6. speaking of Popish miracles and legends, saith, Nostri pleriquè de industria, ita multa 〈◊〉 ut eorum me pudeat & taedeat, sundry of our men do so wilfully coin many things (in their report of Miracles) that I am ashamed and irked of them. Jesuit. That the Roman is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolical Church, from and by which we are to receive the Tradition of Christian Doctrine. These grounds being laid, it is apparent that the Roman Church (that is, the multitude of Christians spread over the world, cleaving to the Doctrine and Tradition of the Church of Rome) is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolical Church. ANSWER. The former grounds (according to your delivery, and exposition of them) are partly false, and partly ambiguous and captious, and therefore it cannot be made apparent from them, That the modern Roman Church, is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolical Church, from which we are absolutely to receive the whole Tradition of Christian Doctrine. JESVITS 1. Argument. There mnst be always in the world One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolical Church, that is, a Church delivering Doctrine uniformly, thereby making them credible: Vniversally, thereby making them famously known to mankind: Holily, so making them certain, and such as on them we may securely rely: Apostolically, so making them perpetually flow without change unto the present Christianity in the Channel of never interrupted succession of Bishops from the Apostles. And this Church must either be the Roman, or the Protestants, or some other opposite to both. Protestants cannot say, a Church opposite to both, for than they should be condemned in their own judgement, and bound to conform themselves to that Church; which can be no other but the Grecian, a Church holding as many or more Doctrines, which Protestants dislike, than doth the Church of Rome, as I can demonstrate if need be. ANSWER. There must be always in the world a Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolical, that is, A number of Christians believing and 〈◊〉, & professing Christianity; to the sounder part whereof the properties of One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolical, belong. But there is not always in the world an Hierarchiall visible Church, consisting of Prelates and people, united in one external form of Policy, and profession of Religion, under an universal Pope, to which alone, these four titles are proper, or principally belonging. And there may be an Orthodoxal Apostolical Church consisting of a small number of inferior Pastors, and right believing Christians, opposed and persecuted by the Hierarchiall part of the visible Church: even as in the reign of king Manasses, and other idolatrous kings of juda a Occam. Dial. part. 1. lib. 5. cap. 5. Quod autèm Sacerdotes summi veteris legis, & etiam judices principales poterant contrà legem iubere, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 veritatem errare, constat ex hoc, quod plures eorum à veritate iudicij & fidei 〈◊〉, sicut per plura exempla posset ostendi, quod plures summi Pontifices, Sacerdotes, circa tempora Machabeorum legem Domini reliquerunt. Urias' etiàm Sacerdos obediens Regi Achaz, contra legem erexit altar, sicut habetur 4. Reg. 16. Summi etiàm Sacerdotes tempore Christi in multis contrà legem erraverunt. judices etiàm Hebreorum nonnulli post joshua, contrà legem egerunt, & omnes Reges praetèr David, Ezechiam, & josiam idololarriam commiserunt. Quarè & summi Sacerdotes & judices in vetere lege contra legem potuerunt iubere. , when Idolatry prevailed among the Priests and general multitude, there was a remnant of holy people, worshipping God according to his word, and not defiled with the impiety of those times. Now concerning the disiunctive part of the jesuits Argument, which is, This Church must either be the Roman, or the Protestants, or some other opposite to both. It is answered: The Protestant Church, is that true and Orthodoxal Church, which is One, Holy, Apostolic, and a sound part of the Catholic. For although the same may be supposed, to have had beginning in Luther's age, yet this is untrue, concerning the essence, and kind, and is true only touching the name, and some things accidental. For in all ages, and before Luther, some persons held the substantial articles of our Religion, both in the Roman and Grecian Church. And by name, the Grecians maintained these articles in common with us, That the Roman Church hath not primacy of jurisdiction, Authority, and Grace above or over all other Churches: neither is the same infallible in her definitions of Faith. They deny Purgatory, private Masses, Sacrifice for the dead, and they propugne the marriage of Priests. In this Western part of the world, the Waldenses, Taborites of Bohemia, the Scholars of Wiclife, called in England Lollards, maintained the same doctrine in substance, with the modern Protestants, as appeareth by the confession of their Faith a Confess. Tabor c. Rokensan, Anno Dom. 1431. Et qui merindoli, Agriae, Costae, etc. Habitabant ediderunt confessionem svam, etc. in qua continentur hij articuli: 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credendum esse in cis quae ad salutem 〈◊〉, etc. 2. Sacras literas integrè continere omnia, etc. 3. 〈◊〉 tantùm esse 〈◊〉 nec invocandos Sanctos, etc. 4. Purgatorium nullum esse, etc. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esse 〈◊〉. 6. Missas quae pro mortuis canuntur impias esse, etc. 7. Traditiones humanas pro necessarijs ad 〈◊〉 habendas non esse. 8. jeiunia in ciborum discrimine, monochatum Papisticum, Benedictiones creaturarum, etc. perigrinationes, etc. esse humanum inventum. 9 Primatum Papae super omnes Ecclesias reijciunt. 10. Rom. Ecclesiam esse Babilonem in Apocalipsi. 11. Communionem in 〈◊〉 specie, etc. 12. 〈◊〉 Papales 〈◊〉. 13. Coniugium Sacerdotum esse sanctum, etc. , and by the testimony of some learned Pontificians b 〈◊〉 Hist. li. 5. pa. 460. Tamen extitere sempèr per interualla qui eorum doctrinam intermortuam renovarent, joh. Wiclevus in Anglia, joh. Hus & Hier. Pragensis: nostra verò aetate postquam Lutheri doctrina, obuio tam multorum favore accepta est, reliquiae eorum vbiquè sparsae colligi, & crescente Lutheri nomine vires & authoritatem sumere caeperunt, etc. 〈◊〉, Hist. 〈◊〉. lib. 3. & li. 12. Guicciard. Hist. 〈◊〉. lib. 13. Anno Dom. 1520. Ex Martini Lutheri, etc. maxima ex parte veteris Bohemorum sectae, quae, etc. diu intrà Bohemiae fines inclusa fuerat, excitatoris, originem habuit. . And concerning certain differences objected to have been between them and us, we shall afterward show, that the same are no greater, than such as have been anciently among the Fathers, and there are as great differences between the Elder and modern Romists in many passages of their doctrine. But now on the contrary, if it were so that we could not (for certain ages past) nominate or assign out of history any other visible Church besides the Roman or Grecian: yet because right Faith may be preserved in persons living in a corrupt visible Church, as Wheat among Tares, 1. King. 19 11. and because God hath promised there shall be always in the world a true Church (having either a larger or smaller number of professors;) if Protestants be able to demonstrate that they maintain the same Faith c 〈◊〉. d. prescript. c. Haer. ca 32. In eadem fide conspirantes, etc. Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. Jb. ca 37. Veritas nobis adiudicetur, quicunquè in ea regula incedimus, quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis, 〈◊〉 à Christo, Christus à Deotradidit. and Religion which the holy Apostles taught, this alone is sufficient to prove they are the true Church. Jesuit. It is also most manifest and undeniable, that Protestants are not such a Church, nor part of such a Church, since their reuoult and separation from the Roman; seeing confessedly they changed their Doctrines they once held, forsook the body whereof they were members, broke off from the stock of that tree whereof they were branches. Neither did they (departing from the Roman) join themselves with any other Church professing their particular doctrines, dissonant from it: Ergo, The Roman is the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolical Church, etc. ANSWER. Bold words, (It is most manifest and undeniable) miserable proofs (they changed their Doctrine they once held, etc.) If the Pharisees had argued in this manner against Saint Paul, or the Manichees and Pelagians a Aug. d. prae dost. sanctor. c. 3. Quem meum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 opuscula mea satis indicant scripta ante 〈◊〉 meum. against Saint Augustine, the one would have told them, That it was no fault to forsake the leaven of Traditions, to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel confirmed by the Prophets; and the other would have pleaded most justly, That it is a virtue and honour, to forsake error, and to embrace verity. God's people are commanded, upon a grievous penalty, to depart out of Babylon and spiritual Sodom, Apoc. 18.4. and Chap. 11.8. Saint Paul, speaking of such as teach divers doctrine from the Apostles, saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Depart from such, from their assembly and Church: Read Acts 19 8. 1. Corinth. 10. 14. 2. Cor. 6. 14, 15, 17. Host 10. 17. The Roman Church, in those things wherein we departed from it, was shamefully corrupted; it did not only forsake, burr deprave and persecute the truth of God: the leprosy thereof was incurable, for it would not judge itself, nor be reproved by others, nor reform the least error, but desperately followed the Canon, Si Papa, &c b 40. Si Papa suae & fraternae salutis negligens 〈◊〉, inutilis & remissus in operibus, & insuper à bono taciturnus, quod magis officit sibi & omnibus, nihilominus innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducit ad Gehennam cum ipso plagis multis in aeternum vapulatures: huius culpas istic redargurere praesumat mortalium nullus, quia cunctos 〈◊〉 iudicaturus, à nemine est iudicandus. . And none might enjoy life and breath within her Precincts, which would not obey her Traditions c Tho. Waldens. Doctrinal. Prefat. ad Martin. 5. Statutum publicum emanavit, quod omnes 〈◊〉, sicut Dei proditores essent, sic proditores Regis proscriptis bonis censerentur, & regni, duplici poenae dandi, incendio propter Deum, suspendio propter regem. . These Romuleans (unless they were blinded like Elymas) could not be ignorant, at least, of some of their errors and corruptions: but they chose rather in their Tridentine Synod, to proclaim and propugne, apertly or covertly, all their ancient forgeries, than to compassionate the distressed and 〈◊〉 Christian world, by mitigating or condescending, according to truth, in the smallest matters. It had been most facile for them, without any prejudice or damage to themselves, to have permitted the Communion of the holy Eucharist, in both kinds; the public 〈◊〉 of God in a known and understood Language a 〈◊〉 Silvius Hist. Bohem. c. 13-Quum Episcopus qui Slavos 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 octavo, supplicaret, ut illis sua Lingua in Sacris, uti liceret etc. Audita est Vox de Coelo, omnis spiritus laudet Dominum & omnis vox confiteatur ei. , to have abolished the adoration of Images, etc. But their Luciferian pride and malice was so transcendent, that they rather presumed to obtrude new Scandals upon the Christian World, than to use the least Moderation, for the peace of the Church. And ever since that Synod, they have proceeded from evil to worse, obscuring and outfacing the Truth with Forgery and Sophistry: They have conspired against Kingdoms, and States; they have surpassed professed Infidels, in perfidious Stratagems, and immane Cruelty b The Massacre of Paris. 〈◊〉. Hist. lib. 52. & lib. 53. Nullum similis 〈◊〉 exemplum, in tota antiquitate reperiri. Natal. Comes. Histor. lib. 25. pa. 508. 〈◊〉 sexaginta millia hominum, varijs in locis per illud tempus, trucidata fuisse dicta sunt in Gallia, etc. . Lastly, whereas they expelled us by Excommunication, and chased us away from them by Persecution; yet this Roman Advocate taxeth us of Schism, and Apostasy, never remembering what S. Augustine long since delivered: The Sacrilege of Schism is then committed, when there is no just cause of separation c August. c. Donat. lib. 5. cap. 1. Apertissimum Sacrilegium Schismatis eminet, si nulla fuit causa separationis. : Or what some of his own part have said d Dried. d. Eccles. Dogm. lib. 4. cap. 4. Neque tenentur Oues sub esse Pastori ulli qui iam factus est, aut ex. Pastore Lupus, aut saluti gregis contrarius. Francisc. Picus, Mirand. Theor. 23. Capitis autem male sani & deliri contagia vitanda sunt, ne & ipsi artus pestilenti humore tabefierent. , The Sheep are not bound to be subject to any Shepherd, which is become a Wolf, or is adverse to the salvation of the Flock. Jesuit. Which also plainly will appear to any man of understanding, that casts upon her an impartial eye: For is she not conspicuously one, the professors thereof agreeing in all points of Faith, howsoever they differ about small vndefined Questions. ANSWER. external Unity is found amongst Infidels: and the Turks, being more in number than Papists, never disagree amongst themselves, touching matters of their Religion: Shall we then say as the jesuit doth, It will plainly appear to any man of understanding, that casts his eye upon Turkey, that the same hath Verity, because it is conspicuously one? Saint Augustine saith, That jews, Heretics, and Infidels observe Unity against Unity a 〈◊〉. d. verb. & Pagani, 〈◊〉 fecerunt, contra 〈◊〉. . S. Bernard b Bernard. Assump. Mariae, Serm. 5. Sciendum, quod alia est unitas sanctorum, quam ex Scripturis commendavimus: Alia est facinorosorum, quae nihilominus ex ipsis Scriptui is, 〈◊〉 & improbatur. Psal. 2. 2. Matth. 22. 15. , Alia est unitas Sanctorum, alia facinorosorum; The Unity of Saints is one thing, and the Unity of wicked men (Deceivers) another. S. Hilary c Hilar. lib. ad Constant. Per speciosum nomen pacis, in unitatem per fidiae subrepimus, etc. pag. 28. , Vnitas fidei, & unitas perfidiae; There is Unity of Faith, and there is likewise perfidious and faithless Unity. S. Gregory saith d Gregor. Moral. lib. 33. cap. 24. , That the ministers of Antichrist shall cleave together like the scales of Leviathan. Therefore, because external Unity is in itself a thing common, and jews and Mahometists enjoy the same more apparently than many Christians; our Adversary must prove that his Church hath Verity, before his argument taken from external Unity, can be of any force. Neither is Papistical Unity so entire and absolute, as this man glorieth: for papals disagree both in Doctrine and Manners. They differ concerning the supreme Authority of the Church, Whether it be in the Pope, or in the General Council e Francisc. Picus. Theorem. 16. Fuere qui dicerent, Concilium in causa fidei prae esse Pontifici, fuere qui Pontificem Concilio praeponerent: & circa ipsius Synodi collectionem, alia etiam quaestio, utrum sine Pontifice, utrum eo refragante convocari colligique possit. . They differ in the matter of freewill, and Grace: They differ concerning the manner of the Conception of the Virgin Marie. There are three Opinions among them, concerning the Temporal dominion of Popes: Some say, he hath direct Temporal power f Aluares Pelag. d. Planct. Eccles. lib. 1. ar. 13. August. Anchona Summa, d. Eccles. Pot. qu. 36. art. 2. Carerius, Francisc. Bosius, & alij. ; some say, indirect g 〈◊〉. d. Pontif. Rom. lib. 5. cap. 6. & 7. Aquinas 22. q. 12. ; some say he hath none h Hugo Victor. d. Sacrament. lib. 2. par. 2. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 Patavin. Occam, etc. Ferus, in Matth. cap. 16. Bernard. d. Consid. ad Eugen. lib. 1. , but by the free Donation of Princes; and, that Princes were evil advised, in yielding him so much i Petrus, d. Ferrar. Singui. Pract. Form. Resp. Rei. Convent. fol. 45. Male ergo & pessime faciunt Imperatores sustinere quod habeant merum & mixtum Imperium, quia Dominus dixit Petro, convert gladium in locum suum, prohibens sibi express, quod de his se non intromitteret. . And modern Popes disagree with the ancient, concerning the Dignity of universall Bishop, adoration of Images, Transubstantiation, Communion in both kinds, and the merit of Good works. Also, they themselves complain of grievous hatred and discord, reigning generally among them; and some of them say, There is greater Concord among Gentiles k Ferus, Postil. Serm. 3. d. Coen. Domin. In omnibus gentibus maior nunc est concordia quam inter Christianos. . And when they colour these palpable Dissensions, pretending, that they are ready to submit themselves to the judgement of the Pope: First, this judge and Umpire is many times a Peace-breaker a Azor. Instit. Mor. tom. 2. lib. 5. cap. 43. johannes Decimus, Leo Nonus, Innocentius Secundus, Gregorius Sextus, julius Secundus, Vrbanus Quartus, ex Sabellic. & Bergom. , and no Peacemaker b Aluar. d. planct. Eccles. Lib. 2. art. 5. Nec sunt hodie Praelati, Principes pacis, sicut Christus, Esay 9 sed Guerrae. Sigebert. Anno 1085. Matth. Paris. Chronic. Greg. Papa, confessus est suadente Diabolo se iram & odium inter humanum genus concitasse. Otho Frising. Chron. lib. 6. cap. 33. Quos dum Leo Papa, cum militia ad urbem rediens Ecclesiae & Imperij finibus arcere vult, Tanta strages facta fuit, quod acerus ex ossibus mortuorum compactus hactenus ab indiginis illic monstratur. Ibid. cap. 36. Quanta mala quot bella, bellorumque discrimina unde secuta sunt, quoties misera Roma obsessa, capta vastata, quod Papa super Papam sicut Rex super Regem positus fuerit tedet memorare. Auentin. Annal. Boiorum, lib. 6. pag. 480. per triginta tres annos à Gregorio & Vrbano continenter sanguine, 〈◊〉 belligeratum est. Nauclerus ex Hermanno. Guelphorum & Gibellinorum factiones, etc. quae deinceps a Gregorio 9 nutritae, adeo late serpsere ut nulla civitas nullum oppidum, nullus populus, ea tabe perniciosissima intactus remanserit, urbs enim in vibem, Provincia in Provinciam, haec populi pars in alteram, nulla impellente alia quam harum partium causa, usque ad haec nostra tempora miro 〈◊〉 inter se saeviere. Abbas Vsperg. in Philip. Imper. Tunc coeperunt multiplicari mala in terris. Ortae sunt siquidem in hominibus, simultates doli perfidiae ut se invicem tradant in mortem & interitum, Rapina deprae dationes, depopulationes terrarum vastationes incendia, seditiones bella & rapinae sive in stratis sive in latrocinijs iustificatae sunt, ut omnis homo iam sit periurus, & praedictis facinoribus implicatus, ut vix excusari possit, quin sit in 〈◊〉 sicut populus sic Sacerdos, tribulatio magna prohibuit hoc, ut nec quis de villa sua possit procedere secure 〈◊〉 in proximam villam. , an Ishmael in the Christian World, whose hand is against every man, and every man's hand is against him. Secondly, Unity which is founded on blind Obedience, is only an Unity of Policy, and not of true Faith. Thirdly, this submission maketh not actual Concord: and miserable Dissension, both intestine and foreign, at home and abroad, rageth between Popes and Princes, and between one Popish Faction and another. The Guelphs and Gibellines, the papals and imperials, are as famous in Histories for their Discord, as the sons of Cadmus; and when Papistry was most potent, the Christian World was most distracted. Jesuit. Apparently universal, so spread over the World, with Credit and Authority, that whole Mankind may take sufficient notice of her, and her Doctrine, for the embracing thereof. ANSWER. The Roman is a particular Church, and not universal: it is only an unsound member of the whole, and not the whole. Rom. 1. 6. S. Paul saith: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Chrys. ad Rom. Hom. 1. Romans scribens qui velut in quodam totius Orbis, vertice constituti erant, nihil prae reliquis gentibus illis praecipui adscribit. Neque enim ideo quod tum potentes erant & regnabant plus 〈◊〉 spiritualium eos habere dicit: sed quemadmodum inquit omnibus gentibus praedicamus ita & vobis, connumerans 〈◊〉 & Scythis, ac Thracibus, nisi enim hoc significare voluisset superfluum erat dicere in quibus estis & vos. Theodoret. sup. Rom. cap. 1. Eos, non ut qui totius Orbis terrarum Dominium obtinerent, ab aliis gentibus secrevit, sed aliis commiscuit. Theophilact. ibid. Hic tollit eorum cogitationem de Primatu. Non enim inquit alias antecellitis gentes, 〈◊〉 Imperium vobis usurpetis: verum enim perinde ac caeteris, sic vobis praedicamus, ne igitur turgeatis fastu. Oecumen. ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , Among whom, are ye also. But a Church which is but one amongst the rest, cannot be the whole and universal Church. It is as absurd to say, that the Roman Church is the universal Church, as to affirm that England is the universal World. If the universal Church be taken properly, or absolutely, it comprehendeth both the Triumphant and Militant Church: Augustine Enchir. cap. 56. and 61. Covarwias', Resol. Lib. 4. cap. 14. If it be taken restrictively, it is the whole Church Militant of each Age. If Catholic be taken for that which is Orthodoxal in Faith, and which holdeth no division with the common Body of Christianity (according to which notion, the Father's term particular Churches Catholic a Cyprian. Epist. 64. & Epist. 69. & Epist. 73. Constantius, ap. Socrat. Hist. Eccles. Lib. 1. cap. 6. & Lib. 2. cap. 2. Greg. Naz. in Testam. apud Brisson. d. form. Lib. 7. Vincent. Lyr. contr. Haer. cap. 25. ) than neither is this Title proper to the Roman Church alone, neither can Papists justly assume the name of Catholic, until they have proved their Faith to be Orthodoxal, and justified themselves from being the Authors of Discord in the Christian World. And to answer that which followeth; although the Roman Church is spread over sundry parts of the World, because some people professing the Roman Faith, travail or reside in many Countries, and exercise their Religion where they travail, or live; yet this will not demonstrate, that it is the Church universal: For both the jews, and also sundry Christians b The Syrians, or Melchites, Georgians, Russians, Nestorians, Christians of S. Thomas in India, jacobites, Copthi, Habassines, Armenians, Maronites. , which are no Romists, are largely diffused over the World, and exercise their Religion in places where they make their abode; and there is nothing more presumptuous, than to make external Fame and Amplitude c Greg. Nazian. Orat. d. Seipso, c. Arrian. Vbi illi sunt, qui Ecclesiam multitudine definiunt. Chrysost. ad Pop. Antioch. Hom. 40. August. sup. Psal. 39 (which are things common, and separable) proper notes of a true Church; and upon this ground, to reject and censure smaller Churches, which have less fame in the World, but more Verity. Jesuit. Most manifestly Holy, in all kind of high extraordinary Sanctity, giving notorious signs and tokens thereof, striking admiration into carnal men, that are not altogether profane, and diffusing abroad, among Infidels, the sweet Odour of Christ, and the Christian Name. ANSWER. Passing by your boasting of Manifestly Holy, in all kind of high and extraordinary Holiness, notorious, striking admiration, etc. And putting you in mind of Solomon's Proverb: There is a man that boasteth himself to be rich, and yet hath nothing: Prou. 13. 7. I answer the matter, first, You must be advertised that Gregory, Moral. l. 33. c. 26. saith, Praedicatores Antichristi sanctitatis sibi speciem arrogant, sed tamen opera iniquitatis exercent: Antichrists Preachers arrogate unto themselves a show of holiness, and practise the works of iniquity. This will be verified in such as you are, if your form of external holiness be not conjoined with holy and Orthodoxal Doctrine. You must therefore first of all prove your doctrine to be Orthodoxal, in the Articles in question between the reformed Churches and you, before your miracles and specious holiness can stand you in any stead: And there is no kind of external holiness, which heretics have not pretended, and practised in show before men. Secondly, your own friends and followers testify, That your Church hath been for many ages, notoriously defiled with the enormity of vices: Some of them say a Gerson. to. 4. 〈◊〉. Brugis scripta. p. 51. in general terms, that from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot, the ulcerous matter of enormous sin, hath defiled and deformed the whole body and state of Christianity, living under your profession. Others affirm, that all Ecclesiastical b Concil. Basil. Resp. Synodal. p. 139. Surius. and Christian discipline, was in a manner extinguished in every place. Others say, that oppression, c Concil. Lateran. sub julio 2. Oratio 〈◊〉. Surius tom. 4. pag. 520. Ita in sanctam naviculam impetum facere ut penè 〈◊〉 fluctibus illa latus dederit, & prope meria & pessundata 〈◊〉 rapine, adultery, incest, and all pestilent vice, did confound all sacred and profane things, and that the same beat S. Peter's ship so impetuously, that it began to hull or wallow upon the toside. Others, d 〈◊〉 in Marcellino primo. that vices were so exalted and multiplied, that they hardly left any space to God's mercy. Others say, e 〈◊〉. disp. d. Repub. lib. 1. cap. 12. pag. 73. Espenc. come. T t. cap. 1. pag. 71. Tot in Ecclesiam abusus, & gravissimos morbos irrupisse, quibus ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 fama ad in fideles usque dimanet Christianismum deridentes, etc. there is no place wherein is found so little piety and Religion, as in those people which dwell nearest to Rome. Others say, f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in adag. Dulce belium inexpertis. that you have not only imitated and matched, but surpassed all the avarice, ambition, lubricity, and tyranny, that was ever heard of amongst the heathen. Sundry of your own part g Aluar. Pelag. d. planct. Ecclesiae Nichol. Clemang. Onus 〈◊〉. Poth. d. stat. Domus Dei. have written volumes, containing Narrations of the outrageous wickedness which reigned among 〈◊〉 They have styled your grand fathers, Monsters of mankind h 〈◊〉 in joh. 13. , The dregs of vice, Incarnate devils, &c i Concil. Constant. Seff. 11. ar. 5. . One saith, k Auentin Anal. Boiorum l. 3. p. 211. Nothing was more luxurious, covetous and proud, than Priests; they spent the Church's patrimony, in gluttony, riot, upon dogs, and queans, and all their preaching was to . Matthew Paris saith, l Chron. in Henrico 3. pag. 535. The 〈◊〉 of Rome seek not to make people devout; but to fill their coffers with treasure; they study not to win souls, but to 〈◊〉 upon other men's revenues; they oppress the godly, and impudently usurp other men's right; they have no care of honesty or right. King john of England, m Math. Paris. ib. anno 1213. p. 327 from whom Pope Innocent extorted forty thousand marks at once, and twelve thousand annually, to absolve his kingdom, being interdicted, said, That he had learned by woeful experience, that the Pope was ambitious, beyond all men living, an insatiable, gulf, and thirster after money, and ready for hope of gain, like wax, to be 〈◊〉 to any kind or degree of 〈◊〉. Aluares hath these words, n Aluar. d. planct. Eccles. lib. 2. art. 5. litera Aleph. Vid. Surium. tom. 4. Concil. pag. 820. 824. 569. 579. 642. Abbas Vsperg. an. 99 Luithprand. vit. Pap. lib. 6. c. 6. Dionys. Carthus. Ep. in fine commentar. Apoc. Naclantus. Medulla script. in praelud. c. 4. Petrus 〈◊〉. pag. 39 & 40. Berchor. Dictionar. v. 〈◊〉. The mystical Zion, the Church, which in her primitive state was adorned of her spouse, with such, and so many royal graces, is now clouded and eclipsed, with the black mist of ignorance, iniquity, and error, and we behold her cast down from heaven, and as a desert habited of virtue, and if any godly people remain, they are esteemed as Arabians and Saracens. And in the same place o Ibid. art. 17. Roderic. spec. pag. 316. Dies. postil: Ser. 4. d. Nat. Dom. pag. 363. Thom. Frater lib. d. Conduit. Praelat. The Prelates of the Church are an army of devils: Potius depraedandis & spoliandis & scandalizandis hominibus quam lucris animarum operam dantes: They rather labour to rob, spoil, and scandalize men, than to win souls. Honorius Angustodonensis p Honor. Angust. Dial. d. 〈◊〉. & lib. 〈◊〉. Verte te ad Cives Babyloniae, & vide quales sint & per quas tendant plateas, etc. Vide veni huc ad supercilium montis, & cuncta possis aedificia cemere damnatae civitatis, Intuere Principes eius & judices (nempe Cardinals 〈◊〉, etc.) Ecce posita est in eyes bestiae sedes. Omni tempore ad malum sunt intenti semper negotijs iniquitatis inexplebiliter occupati, flagitia non solum faciunt, sed & alios facere instruunt: sancta vendunt scelera emunt totis 〈◊〉 laborant, ne soli ad Tartara veniant. Verte te ad Clerum, & videbis in eyes Bestiae 〈◊〉, Dei seruitium negligunt, terrenis lucris inseruiunt, Sacerdotium per immunditiem polluunt, populum per 〈◊〉 seducunt, Deum per mala opera ab negant omnes Scripturas ad salutem pertinentes abdicam, omnibus modes laqueos ad ruinam populo substernunt, quem caecum ipsi caeci ad interitum praecedunt. Contemplare & Monachorum conciliabula, & videbis in eyes Bestiae Tabernacula per fictam professionem Deum irridentes iram eius provocant normam regularem moribus & vita calcant, per habitum seculum fallunt, 〈◊〉 deceptos decepti ipsi decipiunt, secularibus negotijs impliciti sunt, 〈◊〉 seruitio Dei desides existunt: plerique illorum gulae & 〈◊〉 dediti sunt, quidam in immunditiae sorde computrescunt. Aspice etiam habitacula monialium & cernes in eyes Bestiae praeparatum Thalamum. Hae à tenera aetate impudicitiam discunt complices sibi plurimas ad cumulum suae damnationis adsciscunt, vel se operire festinant quo magis fiaena 〈◊〉 laxare queant. Omnibus fornicarijs peius prosternuntur, & ut insatiabilis Charybdis nunquam stercore immunditiae replentur. Hae animas 〈◊〉 illaqueant, & gaudent si plures illaqueant: atque haec vult palmam victoriae quae aliis praevalet in scelere. , who lived in the year 1120. hath these words: Turn thee to the citizen's of Babylon, and observe what manner of people they be, and by what streets they walk; come hither to the top of the mountain, that thou mayest behold all the habitations of the damned city. Look upon her Princes and judges (Popes, Cardinals, Prelates) the very seat of the beast is placed in them. All days they are intent to evil, 〈◊〉 occupied (without satiety) in the works of iniquity: they not only themselves act, but instruct others to flagitious wickedness; they make port-sale of things sacred, they purchase that which is wicked, and labour with all their might, that they may not descend alone to hell. Turn thyself to the Clergy, and thou shalt see in them the tent of the beast: they neglect God's service, they are slaves to worldly lucre, they defile their Priesthood through uncleanness, they seduce the people by hypocrisy, they deny God by evil works, they abandon all the Scriptures appointed for man's salvation, they lay snares all manner of ways to ruin the people, and are blind guides, going before the blind to perdition. Contemplate also the societies of Monks, and thou shalt discern in them the tabernacles of the Beast: by feigned profession, they mock God, and provoke his wrath, they betrample their rule with vile manners, they deceive the world by their habit, etc. Many of them are devoted to gluttony, and sensual appetite: they putrify in the filth of uncleanness. Behold the habitation of Nuns, and thou shalt observe in them, a Bride-chamber prepared for the Beast: These from their tender years learn lewdness, they associate many to them, to accumulate their damnation; They make haste to be vailed, that they may more freely let lose the reins of luxury; they are prostituted worse than any Harlots, like an insatiable gulf, they are never satisfied with the dung of uncleanness: These ensnare the souls of young men, and she among them which transcendeth her fellows in lewdness, bears away the bell. b 〈◊〉. Annal. Boior. l. 7. p. 530. Quemcun que sceleris obnoxium, parricidio, incestu, sacrilegio, pollutum, continuo ubi cruciculam vesti assuisset, solutum esse & crimine & poena declamitabant, quip his aliter ab auditoribus ut fit acceptis, maximam foenestram ad ne quitiam patefecerunt: plerique ansa hinc accepta inimicos suos prius tollebant, hinc in militiam sacram nomina dabant. 〈◊〉. come. Tit. 1. p. 67. Prostat & in quaestu pro meretrice sedet, liber palam ac publice, hic impressus, hodie que ut olim venalis Taxa Camerae, sive Cancellariae Apostolicae, in scriptus, in quo plus scelerum discas licet, quam in omnibus vitiorum 〈◊〉, & summarijs & plurimis quidem licentia, omnibus autem absolutio empturientibus, proposita. pa. 68 Habeat iam Roma pudorem, & 〈◊〉 nullius frontis criminum, omne genus catalogum, prostituere desinat. Thirdly, the Roman Church hath many passages in the very course of Doctrine, to destroy or corrupt holiness: for to omit their gross superstitions, Pharisaical Traditions, and other impieties against God: First, They deprive people of the reading and hearing of the holy Scripture, which is a principal means to destroy Vice, and kindle Virtue a Ambr. Hexam. l. 1. c. 8. Chrys. sup. joh. ho. 58. & add Pop. Antioch. Ho. 1. & sup. Genes. Ho. 10. & Hom. 35. Ambros. ser. 35. Cyril. clulian. lib. 7. p. 160. Fran. Picus. Theorem. 5. , Deut. 31. 21. Secondly, Their doctrine of Pardons ministered daily occasion of intolerable wickedness. For although their Schoolmen plastered the same with subtle distinctions, yet the people entertained them according to the outward letter, and practised accordingly. Thirdly, By some part of their doctrine they 〈◊〉 people to commit sin. Equivocation is a doctrine of Perjury. To affirm that it is lawful to depose Princes, and take away their 〈◊〉 in case of Heresy, is a plain doctrine of 〈◊〉 worse than murder; and if the Pope may command murder, why may he not also command adultery, theft, and blasphemy. The doctrine of the Pope's authority, to dispense with oaths a Walsingham. Edwar. 1. p. 61. Obtinuit rex a Domino Papa absolutionem à iuramento, etc. usus consuetudine & caurela paterna qui quoties instabat necessitas, de faciliiurare voluit se 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suorum & eadem 〈◊〉 voluit 〈◊〉 quoties sibi tempus commodior accideret, praetendens Papalem absol. à 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , is perilous and pernitio us to the safety of mankind, making way to all kind of fraud and injustice. If the Roman Church be so apparently and infinitely holy, why doth it openly maintain Stews, and receive yearly tribute b Constit. Otho. d. Concub. Cler. rem. Videtur quod crimen Meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat, nam & Marischallus Papae de facto exigit tributum a meretricib'. , and part stake with Harlots? and wherefore are Sanctuaries the harbours and dens of Assisines, and other enormous delinquents, tolerated and supported by this Church? It is a monstrous doctrine which was hatched by Pope Vrban c Innocent. part. 10. c. 34. Grat. Caus. 23. q. 5. cap. 47. Excommunicatorum. , and approved by Baronius d Baron. Anno 1089. n. 11. Non eos homicidas arbitramur, qui adversus excommunicatos zelo Catholicae matris ardentes, eorum quosdam trucidare contigerit. , That they are not to be judged murderers which slay excommunicate persons. The exemption of 〈◊〉 from being tried in Causes Criminal, before Christian Magistrates, is a doctrine which maketh way to most outrageous offences, Gulielmus Nubrigensis, lib. 2. cap. 16. e Roger. Hoveden. Annal. part. Poster. 〈◊〉 volebat Presbiteros, Diaconos, Subdiaconos, & alios Ecclesiae Rectores, si comprehensi fuissent in latrocinio, vel murdra, vel felonia, vel iniqua combustione, vel in hijs similibus, ducere ad Secularia examina, & punire, sicut & Laicum. Contrà quod Archiepiseopus dicebat etc. The judges complained that there were many robberies, and rapes, and murders, to the number of an hundred then presently committed within the realm by Ecclesiastical persons (upon presumption of exemption from the censure of the laws.) We cannot be persuaded that the Roman Church is holy in such high and extraordinary manner as our Adversary boasteth, because the greatest Clerks of that society, undertake the defence of such impieties as are detestable in Nature, and condemned by the light of common Reason. Garnets' Powder-plot hath many Patrons. Cardinal Baronius commendeth to Baron. Anno 1106. n. 14. Quis negare 〈◊〉 summum fuisse hoc pietatis genus in hoc se exhibuisse crudelem? Immo ex eo quod non 〈◊〉 vinculis strinxerit etc. nihil habes in quo damns 〈◊〉, magis quam si vehementi faebre phrenetico, deliranti, 〈◊〉, furentique, pius filius 〈◊〉 vincula 〈◊〉, si vere intuitu pietatis, ut facere prae se tulit ea omnia prestitit. the skies, young Henry the Emperor's son for rebelling against his natural father, for deposing, imprisoning, and bringing him with sorrow to the grave: what Turk or Savage would be the encomiast of such unnatural and enormous villainy? Jesuit. Most 〈◊〉 Apostolical, 〈◊〉 a most glorious succession of Bishops and Pastors from the Apostles, famous in all monuments of History and Antiquity, who were never noted as delivering 〈◊〉 doctrines the one to the other. In which proof that these properties agree to the Roman, and be wanting in the Protestant Church, I will not enlarge myself as I otherwise might, as well not to weary your Majesty, as also not to seem to diffide (the matter being most clear) of your Majesty's judgement: wherefore it is more than clear, That the Roman Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, by whose Tradition Christian Religion hath been, is, and shall be ever continued from the Apostles to the world's end. ANSWER. First, If the present Roman Church do want the life and soul of Apostolical Succession, to wit, Apostolical Doctrine, local and titular Succession is only a Pharisaical cloak, or a painted wall, Acts 23.3. and common to Caiaphas, Paul Samosaten, Nestorius, and to many other notorious Heretics a Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. fid. vol. 〈◊〉. du. 24. c. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haeresis, ibi fides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & proindè ratio verae Ecclesiae 〈◊〉: quia forma constitutiva Ecclesiae est vera fides. Vndè cum constet Ecclesiam. Graecam carere verae successio, ad tuendam atquè arguendam pro ea rationem verae Ecclesiae. Bosius, d. sig. 〈◊〉. lib. 17 ca 5. Qua in re maxim obseruandum, non esse perpetuum in iis Ecclesijs ordinem (〈◊〉 〈◊〉) 〈◊〉, qui fuerit interruptus ab Episcopis qui haeretica decreverint. 416. Stapl. princip. Doctr. li. 13. ca 6. Nec ubi adhuc durat talis personalis successio, Catholicae tamèn successioni quicquam habet affine aut simile, quia proptèr haereses quas tenent, & scisma quod faciunt, legitima illa successio non est. Ambros. d. 〈◊〉. li. 1. ca 6. Non habent haereditatem Petri, qui fidem Petri non habent. . Secondly, The visible Succession of the Bishops and Pastors of the said Church from the Apostles, is not most glorious and famous, by the report of all monuments of History and Antiquity b Abbas. Vsperg. Cron. pag. 307. Vix remansit aliquis Episcopatus, siuè dignitas Ecclesiastica, quae non 〈◊〉 litigiosa, & Romam deduceretur ipsa causa, sed non thesaurorum in terra, ut ad te 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & aggeres 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 copia. 〈◊〉 supèr iniquitate filiorum hominum, quoniam in recompensationem 〈◊〉 malorum 〈◊〉 tibi 〈◊〉. jocundare super 〈◊〉 tua discordia, quià erupit de puteo infernalis abissi, ut accumulentur tibi multa pecuniarum praemia. Habes quod sempèr sitisti, decanta trahit homines, non ipsorum devotio aut pura conscientia, sed scelerum multiplicium perpetratio, & litium decisio praecio 〈◊〉. : but the same hath been notoriously distained in latter times, by Simoniacal entrance of Popes and Prelates, by Schysmaticall intrusions, and by commutation of the form of election of Pastors appointed by the Apostles, and exercised in the Primative Church. And whereas the Adversary contendeth that Roman Bishops and Pastors have Succession of doctrine, because Ecclesiastical History is silent, in noting latter Popes for delivering contrary doctrines the one to the other, both the Illation itself, and the antecedent, or ground of the Illation are false. First, it is inconsequent to inserre negatively from humane History, and to say Histories are silent, and therefore no such matter was. Our Saviour proveth the Pharisees and Sadduces to be errants, because their present doctrine was repugnant to the Scripture: and had the Pharisees or Sadduces replied, That their doctrine was the same which Moses & the Prophets taught, because they had Snccession, and Histories were silent when they changed the ancient Faith; they had justified themselves upon as good grounds as Papals do. Secondly, it is false, which this disputer venteth so confidently, That Histories and ancient Monuments are altogether silent of the Innovations which were made by latter Popes: and we are able (as in due place it shall appear) to produce testimonies of History to the contrary. JESVITS 2. Argument. Protestants have the holy Scriptures delivered unto them by and from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolical Church: but they received them from no other Church than the Roman, Ergo the Roman is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. ANSWER. This syllogism is peccant in form, and both the propositions are affirmative in the second figure; which I note the rather, because the Adversary at the end of his Argument cryeth Victoria, saying, An Argument convicting and unanswerable. I must therefore reduce the same to a lawful form, and then answer. That Church by and from which the Protestants receive the Scriptures is the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Protestants receive the Scriptures from the Roman Church, Ergo The Roman Church to the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. First, If this Argument be convicting and unanswerable, as the jesuit boasteth, than these which follow are such. That, from which the Russians received the Scriptures, is the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Russians received the Scriptures from the Greek Church, Ergo The Greek Church is the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Also, that Church from which the Apostles received the Scriptures was the true Church. The Apostles received the Scriptures from the Synagogue of the jews, governed by the Pharisees, Ergo The Synagogue of the jews governed by the Pharisees was the true Church. The delivery of the Text of the holy Scriptures is common to the true, and corrupt Church, and not proper to the Only, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church: as appeareth by the Synagogue, which being a corrupt Church at the time of our Saviour's Advent, yet by the special providence of God, preserved and delivered the Text of the old Testament, Rom. 3.2. And S. Agustine a Aug sup. Psal. 41. Modò nobis seruiunt judaei, tanquam Capsarij nostri sunt, studentibus nobis codices portant. Id. d. Consens. Euang. lib. 1. c. 26. testifieth of the jews, That they were Library keepers b Aug. sup. Psal. 56. Codicem portat 〈◊〉 undè credat Christianus: Librarij nostri facti sunt etc. Idem d. Divinat. Daem. ca 7. to Christians, of the Books of the Law and Prophets. And S. Hierom saith c Hierom. sup. 〈◊〉 saiam c. 6. 〈◊〉 si aliquis dixerit Hebraeos Libros posteà à Iudaeis esse falsatos, audiat Originem quid in octavo volumine explanationum Esaiae, huic respondeat quaestiunculae, quod nunquam Dominus & Apostoli qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis & Pharisaeis, de hoc crimine quod erar maximum 〈◊〉: sin autèm dixerint post 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & praedicationem Apostolorum Libros 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 falsatos chachinnum tenere non potero, 〈◊〉 Saluator & Euangelistae & Apostoli ita testimonia protulerint, ut Iudaei posteà falsaturi erant. joseph. c. Appion. li. 1. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Id. d. Praep. Euang. li. 8. ca 2. Ex Philone. 〈◊〉 annorum millibus, 〈◊〉 maiore tempore iàm transacto, nec verbum unum in lege illius esse immutatum, sed centies unusquisquè 〈◊〉 morietur potius quam legi Mosaicae derogabit, pa 141. , That the Hebrews did not corrupt the Text of the old Testament. Also the Donatists and Novatians delivered the incorrupt Text of holy Scripture to their followers. Secondly, the proposition of the former Argument hath another defect. The Text of holy Scriptures may be delivered by a particular Church, which is but a member of the universal, and therefore it is inconsequent to conclude, That because the Protestants received the Scriptures from the Roman Church, therefore they received them, to wit, immediately from the universal Church. The Minor proposition, to wit, the Protestants received the Scriptures, from no other Church than from the Roman, may be taken in a double sense. For either it may be understood originally, and by way of authority: that is: The Protestants received the Scriptures, both originally and derivatively, from, and by the authority of the Roman Church only; or else it may be understood indicatively: The Protestants received the Scriptures by the hand of the Roman Church, and were first of all instructed, and told by that Church, that the same were divine Books: yet they received them not only or principally from that church, but also, from the Primitive Church, which led them originally to the Apostles themselves a Aug. c. Faust. Manich. lib. 11. ca 2. Palam est quantum in re dubia ad fidem & certitudinem valeat Catholicae Ecclesiae Authoritas, quae ab ipsis fundatissimis sedibus Apostolorum usque in hodiernum diem, succedentibus sibimet Episcopis, secundum seriem successionis & tot populorum consensione 〈◊〉. Driedo. d. Eccles. Dogmat. l. 2. c. 3. Scriptura cognoscebatur esse Sacra & vera, ex ea quae tunc erat Ecclesia, cui ipse Christus perhibuit testimonium, viva voce Signorun & prodigiorum attestatione. Proinde fides tunc ex persona probanda veniebat. In Ecclesia autem quae 〈◊〉 est, Christus nec sic praesens propria voce loquitur, nec se loqui ostendit sub attestatione prodigiorum & signorum, nec spiritus Sanctus in ea iam ita manifestus apparet in signorum & prodigiorum attestationibus, quibus nunc non opus est, ad corroborandum Euangeliorum doctrinam, olim multifariam & sufficienter corroboratam. Proinde fides non amplius ex personis probanda venit, sed contrario ex sua fide probantur personae, sicut & ex 〈◊〉 Sacris cognoscitur ea quae nunc est Ecclesia. . And besides the former Tradition, by reading and studying the holy Scriptures, they learned sufficient matter, out of those heavenly books, to confirm them, that they were divine, and of God. Philemon received S. Paul's Epistle by the hand of Onesimus, he did not esteem Onesimus a servant, who had been a fugitive, an infallible witness in himself: but the argument and contents of S. Paul's Epistle, persuaded him that S. Paul was the Author. A man may receive the King's Proclamation, from off a pillar, or his great Seal by the hand of a mean clerk: So likewise the books of holy Scriptures are first conveyed unto us by Ecclesiastical testimony and Tradition: but they contain heavenly verity, and doctrine within themselves, which persuade the diligent readers and learners of them, that they are divine. Jesuit. The Mayor I prove. If Protestants have not the Text of Scripture, by and from, the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, they cannot be certain they have the true incorrupt Text the Apostles delivered, and recommended as Divine, to the first 〈◊〉; seeing the Tradition of any other Church is fallible, and may deceive. And if it may deceive, how can they be certain that they are not deceived, seeing they themselves lived not in the Apostles days, to see with their own eyes what Copies the Apostles delivered. But Protestants, as they pretend, be certain that they have the true incorrupt Apostolical Text of Scripture: Ergo, they have it upon the Authority of the holy Catholic Apostolic Church. ANSWER. The Argument whereby the Adversary confirmeth his Mayor, is this: If the Protestants receive the Scriptures from any other, but the Holy Catholic Church, they cannot be certain that the same are incorrupt, because a fallible Witness may deceive. Answ. They which receive the Scriptures from the hands of a corrupt Church, may be deceived, if there be not some other infallible means, besides the Testimony of that Church, to assure them. But if that Church be only a Messenger, to deliver, and there be found in the thing delivered that which is certain and infallible in itself, to wit, the Testimony of the Apostles, and of the Spirit of God, speaking in and by those Scriptures a Gregor. Moral. Lib. 16. cap. 17. In Scriptura eius quasi os eius intuentur; quia Deus per eam loquitur omne quod vult. (Acts 24. 25.) then they which immediately receive the Text of the Scripture from a fallible Church, may be certain that they are not deceived. It is not necessary, that the Messenger, by and from whose hands we receive immediately the Text of the Scriptures, should be infallible in all things; for than we must receive them from the hands of no particular Church, or particular Council, unconfirmed by the Pope, or from any particular Pastor of the Church, because these are fallible: And according to our Adversary's Tenet, infallibility of judgement is found only in the Pope, and Council confirmed by him b Greg. Val. to. 3. Disp. 2. Punct. 2. pag. 30. Bellarm. d. Concil. lib. 2. c. 2. . And from hence it will in like sort follow, that for the first two or three hundred years (beginning from the death of the Apostles) in which time there was no general Council c Bellarm. d. Concil. lib. 1. c. 10. Primis trecentis annis caruit Ecclesia 〈◊〉 generalibus. , yea, for certain Ages, after general Counsels began, until the Canon of the Scripture was expressly assigned by some general or particular Council, confirmed by the Pope, Christians should have remained uncertain, touching the sacred Authority of Divine Scripture, because the means by which they received them immediately, were fallible. The Authority of the holy Scripture dependeth upon the immediate Messenger which delivereth the Books unto us, no more than the Authority of the King's Proclamation dependeth upon the Sergeant who proclaims it, or sets it upon a Pillar, to be read of all men, but upon the first Divine Witnesses, which we know to be the Authors of the Scripture: not because Pope Paul the fifth, or Clement the eight say so, but because the Witnesses themselves affirm it in their Scripture, Read before, pag. 13. etc. or deliver that in their Scripture, by which it is proved, to such as are elevated by Grace, and taught of God. Jesuit. Now the Minor, That they have the Scripture from the Roman, is apparent: For what other Church did deliver unto Luther the Text of the Bible? assuring him, that they had it by Tradition of Ancestors, time out of mind, as given originally by the Apostles: which is accordingly acknowledged by M. Whitaker, and others, but Whitak. Lib. d. Eccles. pag. 369. M. Dove in his Persuasion, pag. 13. Luther, contra Anabaptist. particularly, by Luther himself: Ergo, the Roman Church is the one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, whose Tradition doth deliver infallibly unto us the Text of Scripture. ANSWER. The Protestants receiving the Books of holy Scripture by the hand of the Roman Church, proveth not the said Church to be the only holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, any more, than the receiving of Baptism by Heretics, or the Old Testament by the Synagogue (of which the Pharisees were a part) prove the same to be the true infallible Church. Jesuit. And if the true Apostolical Text, than also the true Apostolical Sense. ANSWER. The sequel is denied: For it is not necessary, that they which truly deliver the Text, shall also truly deliver the Apostolical sense: and on the contrary, a lying sense may be delivered by them, which retain the true and incorrupt Letter of the Text, as appeareth by the Pharisees, Arrians a Hilar. ad 〈◊〉 pa. 281. 〈◊〉 Scripturas fine sensu 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 contra 〈◊〉. pag. 67. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 1. in 〈◊〉. , Donatists, and many other Heretics b Greg. Nazianz. c. Apollinar. Tertull. d. Prescript. cap. 〈◊〉 Ista Haerefis si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 integras praestat, etc. Nihilominus diversas 〈◊〉 commentata 〈◊〉, etc. Ibid. cap. 38. 〈◊〉: lib. 3. cap. 12. 〈◊〉 quidem 〈◊〉, interpretationes vero convertunt. . Jesuit. This I prove. If the Apostles did not deliver the bare Text, but together with the Text, the true sense of Scripture, to be delivered perpetually unto posterity; then they who by Tradition receive from the Apostles the true Text, must together receive the true sense. But all principal Protestants affirm, No man doubteth, but the Primitive 〈◊〉. in Exam. Concil. Trid. part. 1. fol. 74. Church received from the Apostles and Apostolical men, not only the Text of Scripture, but also the right Doct. Bancroft Survey, pag. 379. and native sense, which is agreeable to the Doctrine of the 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. cap. 2. Fathers; that from the Apostles, together with the Text, descends the Line of Apostolical interpretation, squared according to the Ecclesiastical and Catholic sense. ANSWER. The Assumption of the former Argument, to wit, The Read before, pag. 45. etc. Apostles, together with the Text, delivered the true sense of all their Scriptures to those people to whom they wrote, is uncertain. They delivered (no doubt) the sense of the Scriptures, where they preached, so 〈◊〉 was necessary: but that they made a large and entire Commentary upon all their Scriptures, and delivered the same to posterity, to continue perpetually, is not proved by the confession of Chemnitius; and the discord which is in the Commentaries a 〈◊〉. Val. to. 3. d. Trad. pag. 377. Fatendum est raro accidere posse, ut quae sit Doctorum omnium, etc. de Religione Sententia satis cognoscatur. Machlin. in 1. part. Thom. Quaest 1. art. 10. 〈◊〉 49. Saepe in varias partes patres & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Bellarm. d. bon. operib. in part. lib. 1. cap. 2. of the Fathers (yea of Romists themselves) upon the Scriptures, argueth the contrary. Jesuit. Whereupon S. Augustine argueth, That they that Aug. de vtil. Cred. cap. 14. deliver the Text of Christ's Gospel, must also deliver the Exposition; affirming, That he would sooner refuse to believe Christ, than admit any interpretation, contrary to them by whom he was brought to believe in Christ. For they that can deliver by uniform Tradition a false sense, why may they not also deliver a false Text, as received from the Apostles? An argument convincing, and unanswerable. ANSWER. Saint Augustine in the place objected, Lib. d. util. Cred. cap. 14. confuteth the Manichees, who condemned Faith, and affirmed, That people ought to credit nothing, but that which is demonstrated by reason a Christo credendum esse negant, nifi indubitata ratio reddita 〈◊〉, etc. : And he argueth against these Heretics, first, out of some of their own grounds; for they were compelled to believe something in their Religion, upon report of others, and they required people to give credit to certain Narrations, which could not be demonstrated by reason only. Secondly, This Father proveth the necessity of Faith, because without giving credit to some report, it was impossible to receive the knowledge of Christ. Thirdly, Whereas the Manichees required, that men should learn to know Christ's word from them: Saint Augustine saith, That if he had no better Guides to follow, than Vos auten tam pauci, & tam turbulenti, & tam novi, 〈◊〉 dubium est, quin nihil dignum authoritate praeferatis. such new and turbulent Companions, as those Heretics were, he should sooner persuade himself not to believe in Christ, than to believe upon their bare report, or to receive this Faith from any other, than from those by which he first believed. But Saint Augustine in this place treateth not of the sense of the Scripture, neither doth he say absolutely, that he would sooner refuse to believe Christ, than to admit any interpretation contrary to them by whom he was brought to believe in Christ: but he speaketh comparatively, and according to humane reason, he should more easily be persuaded to believe nothing, than forsaking the authority and testimony of his first Teachers, yield credit to these men, upon their Heretical grounds. It is clear, that Saint Augustine did not always tie himself, to the same exposition of Scripture, which those that were before him had delivered. For in the questions of Grace and freewill, he found out many expositions, by searching the Scriptures, which both himself, and other men, before him were ignorant of, until the heresy of Pelagius arose a Aug. d. praed. sanct. c. 14. : and in his work, De Doctrina Christiana b Lib. 1. c. 36. , he makes twofold charity, the model of expounding Scripture, and not the authority of Ecclesiastical Teachers, whom he oftentimes expoundeth with mitigation, or rejecteth with modesty c Epist. 111. & Epist. 112. , and he is most constant in advancing the authority of Scripture, before any Ecclesiastical authority whatsoever d Aug. c. Cresc. 2. c. 31. etc. Faust. Manich. l. 11. c. 5. & d. Ciu. Dei. l. 11. c. 3. & l. 14. c. 7. . Jesuit. For they that can deliver by uniform Tradition a false sense; Why may they not also deliver a false Text, as received from the Apostles? An argument convincing and unanswerable. ANSWER. The jesuit imagineth that this Argument is invincible. But let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself, as he that putteth it off, 1. Kings 20. 11. And Saul's brags, That God had delivered David into his hand, proved vain: 1. Sam. 23. 14. and 24. 5. The Argument reduced to form, will discover its own weakness: If the Text of the Scripture may 〈◊〉 easily be corrupted as the sense; then all they which can deliver by uniform Tradition, a false sense, may also deliver a false Text. But the Text of the Scripture may as easily be corrupted, as the sense. Ergo: All they which can deliver by uniform Tradition a false sense, may also deliver a false Text. The assumption of this Syllogism (which although it were concealed by the Paralogist, yet it must be added, to make the Argument perfect) is apparently false, and the contrary is true. The Text of the Scripture cannot so easily be corrupted e Aug. Ep. 48. Salmer. Tom. 1. Proleg. 1. as the sense; and therefore it is not necessary, that they which following humane Tradition, or their own invention, may deliver a false sense, shall likewise deliver a false Text. First, the Text of the Scripture is contained in Records, and Books, which are dispersed throughout the whole Christian world, and preserved in all Churches, and the Copies and Transcripts of them are innumerable. Tradition is in the breast of a few, and authentically (as Papals affirm) in the breast of the Pope, and his Church only a 〈◊〉. d. verb. Dei l. 4. c. 9 〈◊〉 Apostolicas Traditiones. . Secondly, when God Almighty would have the knowledge and memory of things to be perpetual, he commanded that they should be committed to writing b Aug. sup. Psal. 144. 〈◊〉 generatio vadit & generatio manet, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 secula 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mortalibus Scriptura Dei manner debuit, & quodda Chyrographun Dei quod omnes 〈◊〉 legerent, & vian promissionis eius tenerent. Chrys. in Mat. Hom. 1. Postquam omnis populus judeorum, in 〈◊〉 ima delapsus est, necessario inde litetae dantur & tabulae, & ea quae per has administratur admonitio. Et hoc non tantum veteris Testamenti sanctis sed etiam novi accedisse perspicimus. : Exod. 17. 14. and 34. 27. Deut. 31. 19 And although the law of nature was engraven in man's heart, and might have been preserved for ever, by uniform succession; yet God himself wrote the same in Tables: Deut. 10.4. and inspired Moses to write it in Books: Exod 20. Deut. 5. And although the Precepts of the Law of Nature were more firmly fixed in man's heart, c Aug. sup. Psal. 57 Manu formatoris nostri, ipsa veritas in cordibus nostris scripsit Tertul. d. cor. 〈◊〉. c. 6. Chrys. in joh. Hom. 13. 〈◊〉. Epist. 66. Aug. confefl. l. 2. c. 4. Id. sup. serm. Dom. in mont. l. 2. c. 9 Hier. ad Algas. q. 8. and the Tradition thereof was more generally diffused than any positive Tradition can be: yet in process of time, many parts thereof were corrupted, both in regard of knowledge and practice. Thirdly, experience of all ages testifieth, that the Text of the Scripture hath been preserved inviolable, even among jews and Heretics: whereas the sense of the Scripture, made known by Tradition only, is forgotten in part d 〈◊〉. d. ver. Relig. l. 1. c. 10. p. 38. Quae 〈◊〉 voce ab Apostolis tradebantur, eadem si non omnia, saltem nonnulla per maiorum nostrorum, & superiorum Ecclesiarum manus, & conciliorum approbationes, ad nos 〈◊〉 existimandum est. , and they which disagree about the sense, and some parcels of the Canon of the Scripture, are at one, concerning the very letter of the Text. For although there were some, which in ancient time rejected the Epistle of St. james, and the latter of St. Peter, etc. yet the literal Text of these Scriptures, was faithfully preserved always in the Church. f 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 73. 〈◊〉 d. Dogmat. Eccles. l. 4. p. 5. c. 6 Sciendum est, quod multifariam tacitè aliquid in Scriptures sacris invenitur. Primum cum illud nec express in Scriptures sacris significatur, nec adeo evidenter pendet ex illis, ut ipsis admissis cogatur quisquam non dissentire sed tamen necessitate 〈◊〉 consequitur ex illis secundum Traditionem universalis Ecclesiae intellectis, aut secundum antiquam Christianorum Scholam interpretatis, qualis est haec sententia 〈◊〉 personae pater filius & 〈◊〉 sanctus sunt unus Deus, buius generis sunt omnes articuli fidei contra Haereticos 〈◊〉 in symbolo 〈◊〉, & in symbolo quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Fourthly, whereas the jesuit compareth unanimous Tradition of the sense of Scripture, with the written letter and Text of the Scripture; unless he equivocate in the name, terming that Tradition which is collected from the Scripture, e 〈◊〉. Hist. Eccles. l. 2. c. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. such uniform Tradition as he boasteth of, is very rare: for it must be such, as in all ages, and in all Orthodoxal Churches, hath been the same. Now the most undoubted and uniform Tradition of all other, is, concerning the number and integrity of the Books of holy Scripture; and yet in this, difference hath been between one Church and another a Euseb. Hist. Eccles. l. 2. c. 23. & l. 3. c. 3. & 22. , and the later Roman Church, disagreeth with the ancient b Greg. Mor. l. 19 c. 17. De qua re non inordinate facimus, si ex libris licer non Canonicis (Machabeorum) sed tamen ad edificationem plebis editis, testimonium proferamus. , the one denying c Concil. 〈◊〉. sess. 4. Decret. 1. Receptio & numerario lib. sacr. vet. & No. Test. , and the other affirming ᵈ, the books of Macchabees to be Canonical. The Articles also of the late Popish Creed, compiled by Pope Pius the fourth a Bulla Pij. 4. p. 294. 〈◊〉 vita Pij4 p. 384, etc. Profiteor septem esse vere & proprie Sacramenta novae legis, à jesu Christo Domino nostro instituta, etc. Omnia & singula quae de peccato originali, & de iustificatione in 〈◊〉 synodo Tridentino, etc. Profiteor in missa offerri Deo verum, proprium, & propitiatorium 〈◊〉 pro vivis & defunctis, etc. Fieri conversionem totius substantiae panis in corpus, & totius substantiae vini in sanguinem, etc. Fateor etiam sub 〈◊〉 specie, etc. Sanctos invocandos esse, eorum reliquias venerandas, etc. Imagines Christi ac Dei parae, etc. habendas, & debitum honorem ac venerationem impartiendam, etc. Rom. Ecclesiam omnium Ecclesiarum matrem ac Magistram agnosco. Romanoque pontifici, etc. Hanc Catholicam fidem extra quam nemo saluus esse 〈◊〉, etc. , are not agreeable to the ancient Tradition of the Catholic Church, or to the Tradition of the elder Roman Church itself: and among sundry other matters in question betwixt us, this jesuit is not able to show, by an uniform Tradition of all ages, that the place of Saint Paul, 1. Cor. 3. 12. is understood of Popish Purgatory; or Math. 16. 19 john 20.23. of jubilees and Indulgences; or the place of Acts 10. 13. Rise Peter, and kill, of murdering Princes, or of the temporal dominion of the Pope b Sentent. Card. Baron. sup. excom. venetorum. . b Gretsar. Def. Bellarm. d. verb. Dei pag. 1713. Regula non dicit id esse Traditionem Apostolicam quod universa Ecclesia semper & omni tempore credidit, sed quod tota Ecclesia (Papa cum Concilio vel sine Concilio. Colloq. Ratisbon. p. 35.) credit & amplectitur in presenti. If the Papists would impose no other sense upon the Scripture, than such as is confirmed by uniform Tradition, the difference between them and us would easily be composed: but these men every day hatch novel expositions, and when they are hunted out of one, they fly to another. They glory of antiquity, succession, uniform Tradition, and cry Victoria, Invincible, Unanswerable, before the combat is finished: but they are compelled to forge Authors, to impose false expositions upon the Texts of Fathers, sometimes to abridge, sometimes to enlarge the Tomes of Counsels, and to purge and corrade Ecclesiastical writers, old and new: a Sixt. 〈◊〉. Biblioth. Ep. Dedicat. ad Pium. 5. Deinde expurgari & emaculari curasti omnia Catholicorum Scriptorum, ac precipue veterum patrum, scripta, Haereti corum nostrae aetatis foecibus contaminata, & venenis 〈◊〉. and yet being unable to prevail by all the former, they are forced in many cases, to press the bare authority of the Pope, and his adheres, to warrant their Tradition. JESVITS 3d. Argument. My third proof I ground upon a principle most certain, In the sum of the Conference before his Majesty. pa. 〈◊〉. and set down by your most gracious Majesty, That the Roman Church was once the Mother Church, and consequently the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, all other Churches being her daughters: and that she is not to be forsaken, further than it can be proved that she departed from herself, that is, from the Mother and original Doctrine delivered by the Apostles. ANSWER. This principle whereupon you ground your third Argument, is neither true in itself, nor yet confessed by his excellent Majesty, in the place whereunto you refer us a Summe Confer. at Hampton Court, januar. 14. 1603. pag. 75. This being his constant resolution, That no Church ought further to separate itself from the Church of Rome, either in Doctrine or Ceremony, than she had departed from herself when she was in her flourishing and best estate, and from Christ her Lord & Head. . His Majesty affirmeth, That we ought not to depart from the Church of Rome in Doctrine or Ceremony, further than she had departed from herself, in her best estate, and from Christ her head. This sentence of our most religious King is consequent upon S. Paul's doctrine, Rom. 12. 18. & Rom. 14. 13. and the same is consonant to Charity and Reason b Aug. d. Bapt. c. Donat. li. 6. ca 44. Ipsi Gentiles si quid divinum & rectum, etc. Orig sup. Exod. Hom. 11. Basil. Hexam. Hom. 5. Clem. Alexand. Strom. li. 1. , and argueth a mind desirous of Concord and Peace, and averse from unnecessary Innovations. And as this moderation is commendable in all men, so it is most agreeable to him that is a Father of peace, whose word is Beati Pacifici c Symb. Othonis Imp. pax cum hominibus cum vitijs bellum. . But whereas you encroach upon his Majesty's speech, adding a gloss which is not warranted by the Text, and infer a conclusion which the premises afford not, you are herein injurious, both to the Author you allege, and to the Truth. The Roman was never, by divine institution d There is difference between the Mother-church, which signifieth a Church, out of whose womb all other Church's issue. and a Mother-Church, which (as Turtullian calleth Matrices Ecclesias) importeth not fingularitie of One, Holy, etc. but only Verity and Priority before others, whereof it was a Mother. , the Mother Church, in regard of all Christians, neither Universal, in respect of an absolute command and jurisdiction over all particular Churches, as is challenged by the Canon, Dist. 12. c. 1. Non decet, etc. e Gratian. Dist. 12. ca 1. Non decet à capite membra discedere, sed iuxta sacrae Scripturae testimonium, omnia membra caput sequantur. Nulli vero dubium est, quod Apostolica Ecclesia matter est omnium Ecclesiarum, à cuius vos regulis nullatenus convenit deviare, & sicut Dei filius venit facere voluntatem patris, sic & vos voluntatem vestrae impleatis matris, quae est Ecclesia, cuius caput (ut praedictum est) Romana existit Ecclesia. But it was once a Mother Church, as the Seas of patriarchs are styled Mother-Churches, or a Mother-Church respectively to such people and nations as were converted by her preaching, and other Churches were styled with that title as well as the Roman. a Theod. Hist. Eccles. lib. 5. cap. 9 Matris omnium 〈◊〉 Hierosolomitanae, reverendistimum, & Dei 〈◊〉 Cyrillum Episcopum esse vobis significamus. Theodoret speaking of the Church of Jerusalem, saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. We make known unto you, that the most reverend and godly Cyrill is made Bishop of Jerusalem, which is the Mother of all Churches. The Roman Church, once a Metropolitan, or patriarchal Mother Church, since the days of Hildebrand, is suspected to be the Mother spoken of, Apoc. 17. 5. and some of your own part have said, that in these latter times b Sarisbur. Policrat. li. 6. ca 24. , Nontam se matrem exhibet quam Noveream, she behaveth herself more like a stepdame than a natural mother, her breasts have been very dry for sundry ages past c Espenc. Digres. in 1. Timoth. li. 1. ca 11. Fides ex divini verbi auditu. Ro. 10. Vbi ergo id nec legitur nec auditur, fidem perire, ac labefactari necesse est, 〈◊〉 hodie 〈◊〉 dolour, omnib' fere locis cernimus, ut ad tempora propinquare videamur de quib' Dominus: putas filius hominis veniens, fidem inveniet super terram. August. tr. 3. in ep. joh. Est matter Ecclesia & ubera eius duo testamenta Scripturarum divinarum, etc. and she deprived her children of a principal portion of the food of life, and in steed of milk delivered them water mixed with chalk d Iren. li. 3. ca 19 〈◊〉. d. fid. Orthod. c. Arian. c. 1. Vt Gypsum aqua permixtum lac colore mentitur, ita per verisimilem confessionem Traditio inimica suggeritur. : Her public readings and service were in an unknown tongue: the holy Scriptures were closed up, that people might not cast their eyes upon them: fabulous legends were read and preached e Espenceus in 2. Timoth. 4. digr. 21. pa. 150. 151. & sup. 1. Tim. digress. lib. 1. ca 11. Maiores nostri, tanta licet quanta nos erga sanctos devotione, iustum tamen non putarunt, tot sanctorum gestarecitari, ut legi non possint sacra vtriusquè Testam. volumina. Facilius Augiae Stabulum quam talibus fabellis, etc. Ludovic. Viues. lib. 2. d. corrupt. artium. in fine. & Ib. li. 5. in steed of God's word: and hereby it came to pass, as some of their own Authors f Navar. Enchir. ca 11. n. 6. In universa Repub. Christiana, tanta est circa haec 〈◊〉 dia, ut multos passim invenias, nihil magis in particulari, explicit de hijs rebus credere, quam Ethnicum quendam Philosophum, sola unius Dei naturali cognition 〈◊〉. say, That the greater number of people understood no more concerning God, and things divine, than Infidels or Heathen people. Jesuit. But she cannot be proved to have changed her Doctrine, since the Apostles, by any monuments of History or Antiquity: yea the contrary in my judgement may be most evidently proved, in this sort. ANSWER. If by monuments of History and Antiquity, be understood Human or Ecclesiastical Monuments, it is inconsequent to infer, that the present Roman Church hath not changed her doctrine since the Apostles, although this could not be demonstrated by monuments of History, etc. for there remaineth a more firm and demonstrative Argument to prove this, to wit, the holy Scripture: and if the present doctrine of the Roman Church disagree with the Scripture, than it is changed from that which it was anciently. The rule by which we must try doctrines is the word of God, and not humane History a 〈◊〉. d. unit. Eccles. cap. 3. Non audiamus hec dico, haec dicis, sed audiam' haec dicit Domin'. Sunt certi libri dominici quorum authoritati vtriquè consentimus, utrique credimus, utriquè seruimus, ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam, ibi discutiam' causam nostram. Ibid. Auserantur illa de medio, quae adversus nos invicem, non ex divinis Canonicis libris, sed aliunde recitam'. Nolo humanis documentis, sed divinis oraculis, Ecclesiam demonstrari. Ib. ca 16. Ecclesiam suam demonstrent, si possunt non in sermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum, non in concilijs Episcoporum suorum, etc. sed in praescripto legis, etc. in ipsius Pastoris vocib', etc. hoc est in omnibus Canonicis sanctorum librorum authoritatibus. , and the word of God is true, and abideth for ever, whereas humane History is fallible, contingent, and corruptible. 1. It is not absolutely necessary that humane Histories of all matters should be composed, and the world continued many ages without any written History. Secondly, When the same are written, they cause only humane Faith. b Canus. loc. Theolog. li. 11. ca 4. Praetèr Authores sacros, nullus Historicus certus esse potest, etc. Horant. loc. lib. 5. cap. 3. Gillius d. Deo & sacr. Doctr. li. 1. tr. 7. ca 15. August. d. Civit. Dei li. 18. ca 38. & 40. & li. 21. ca 6. Thirdly, they may totally perish, and be suppressed, or corrupted by the enemies of Truth. c Read a late Treatise touching the visibility of the 〈◊〉, Sect. 15. pa. 68.69. how Papists burned the works of 〈◊〉 and others which were opposite to them. Fourthly, History may be repugnant to History, and that which is affirmed by some, may be contradicted or controverted by others d The Story of Pope 〈◊〉 affirmed at least by thirty Popish Historians, and other Doctors, and of late stiffly opposed by other Papals, Vid. joan. Wolph memorabil. An. Dom. 854. 〈◊〉. loc. 〈◊〉. 5. d. Ecclesia sect. 197. And by the Story, touching Pope 〈◊〉, who is affirmed to have been an Heretic by ancient History, and by many Papals, yet the same is stiffly contradicted by Moderns, Albertus Pighius, Bellarmine, Baronius, Andradius, etc. : and the largeness and difficulty of the Monuments of Antiquity may be such, as that few people can be able to read and examine them: and if they which read and compare them be opposite in judgement each to other, the greater part of people shall be perplexed, and cannot know how to resolve themselves. Our Adversaries teach us, That the principal Monuments of Antiquity, to wit, the ancient Counsels, have not been faithfully preserved e Bellarm. d. Concil. li. 1. ca 2. Libri ipsi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conseruati sunt, & multis vitijs scatent, etc. Espenc. sup. 1. Timoth. Digress li. 1. ca 11. pag. 223. Argumentum est, conciliorum acta non vbiquè integra esse. . Many things supposititious, have been added to the works of the Ancient, and bastardly Books and Sentences pass under the titles of Fathers. Our Adversary's being a party whose doctrine is to be examined (according to their own challenge) by Monuments of Antiquity, have presumed to correct, purge, and alter such Records. Lastly, when the testimony of Historians repugnant to their present Tenet, is produced against Papals, they despise and reject them, to wit, Eusebius f Paramo. d. Orig. Inquisit. lib. 3. d. pontiff. author. in Temporal. q. 1. Opinio. 1. num. 95. pag. 436. Nec curandum est de opinion & historia Eusebij, cum ab Ecclesia sit reprobara ut inquit Gelasius. d. 15. c. Sancta Romana vel eo quià Arrianus & Arrianorum protector fuit, etc. , Socrates, Sozomene, etc. Baronius, a new upstart, censureth all Historians g 〈◊〉. Anal. tom. 1. praefat. Idem. Anno 395. n. 41. & anno 400. n. 42. Idem. Anno 774. n. 10.12.13. 〈◊〉. Anno 996. n. 54. Idem. An. 1048. num. 1. . Pighius h Bannes. 22. quest. 1. ar. 10. pa. 58. Et certè 〈◊〉 est quod post 900. 〈◊〉 Albertus Pighius invenerit testes illos falsarios 〈◊〉. , after one thousand years, controls the testimony of general Counsels, and it is a rule among them, that the ancient Fathers (than much less Histories) are not to be 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉, than they 〈◊〉 the keys and 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Church a 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 pag. 273. 〈◊〉. Resp. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 5. pag. 140. Nequè enim patres censentur, cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quod ab Ecclesia 〈◊〉 acceperunt, vel scribunt, vel docent. 〈◊〉. Mus. Comment. Rom. c. 14. Ego. ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, plus uni 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 crederem, in hijs quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tangunt, quam mille 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, Gregorijs, etc. pa. 606. 〈◊〉. Prior. li. d. Mod. Inquir. Reg. 6. Dimitte Doctores doctores esse, Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 necesse est: illi possunt errare Ecclesia non potest errare. . Jesuit. The Doctrines that were for diverse ages universally received in the Christian Church, and no time of their beginning is assigneable, must be Doctrines unchanged coming from the Apostles. ANSWER. This Proposition may hold in prime and essential Articles of Doctrine, but not generally in all Doctrines: and some learned Papists hold, that it is possible for the visible Church of one age to err or be deceived, by a blameless and invincible ignorance, in points of Doctrine, the express knowledge whereof is not necessary to Salvation b 〈◊〉. Dialog. pa. 1. lib. 4. ca 9 & lib. 5. cap. 7. 〈◊〉. Arms. 〈◊〉. q. 1. p. 9 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. penned. fid. vol. 1. dub. 23. c. 2. 〈◊〉. 4. . Jesuit. But it is most clear, and confessed by the Protestants, Doct. 〈◊〉, Fulke, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, Bale, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 & others, Whitaker powel, Bucan. Field, and others. whose testimony (plentiful in this behalf, if need require) shall be brought. First, that the Doctrines of the Roman Church which Protestants refuse, have been universally received for many ages, a thousand years ago at least, ever since Boniface the third. ANSWER. It is neither clear in itself, nor yet confessed by Protestants, that the Doctrines of the Roman Church, which Protestants refuse, have been universally received for 1000 years at least, etc. The article of the Pope's Supremacy, and of Purgatory, Adoration of Images, forbidding married Priests to live with their wives, were ever opposed and rejected by the Greek Church. The Doctrine of the Trident Council concerning the Canon of the holy Scriptures a 〈◊〉 praef. in Math. q. 19 Nos 〈◊〉, quare potius 〈◊〉 effet, Marco & 〈◊〉; 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉, quam libro 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉, qui non 〈◊〉 in Canone, cum non appareat aliqua ratio maior de hoc quam de illo: sed solum sequimur Ecclesiam, quia ipsa posuit libros 〈◊〉 in Canone: librum autem judith & Tobiae extra Canonen. (& postea:) Ecclesia universalis, etc. Hoc conformiter & uniformit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. and the pre-eminence of the vulgar Translation, before the Hebrew and Greek Text, was not universally 〈◊〉 for a thousand years. The temporal authority of the Pope, the merit of Condignity, public service in an unknown language, jubilees, and Pope's pardons, Communion in one kind, Transubstantiation, Blessing or baptising of Bells b 〈◊〉. Rom. l. 2. Printed at 〈◊〉, 1520. 〈◊〉 debet 〈◊〉 antequam 〈◊〉 in campanili: paranda sunt ideo vas aquae benedicendae, aspersorium vas cum sale, lintea munda, oleum sanctum, sanctum Chrysma, Thymiama, thus 〈◊〉 Thuribulum cum igne: Pontifex & Diaconus, etc. sint in suis vestimentis, precibus peractis pontifex lavat campanam cum dicta aqua & cum policy dextra manus facit crucem supra campanam ab extra cum oleo infirmorum & intus cum Chrysmate, & profert interim haec verba; 〈◊〉 & consecretur (Domine) signum istud in nomine Patris & Filij & Spiritus sancti. In honorem sancti talis, pax tibi, etc. , etc. were not generally received in the Church universal, for a thousand years at least: And a great number of Believers, which in this West part of the world, have always denied and resisted these Articles; and among other opponents, there were a people, called Waldenses, Leonistae, pauperes de Lugduno, etc. many in number, and largely diffused through diverse Countries, who denied the foresaid Popish Articles, and whose Doctrine, in the most points, was consonant to that which reformed Churches do now profess. Reinerius, c Reiner. cont. Haeret. c. 4. Inter omnes sectas quae adhuc sunt vel fuerunt, non fuisse 〈◊〉. Ecclesiae, quam 〈◊〉, idque tribus de causis. Prima est 〈◊〉 est diuturnior, aliqui enim dicunt quod duraverit à temporibus Syluestri, aliqui à tempore Apostolorum. See 〈◊〉, quia generalior, fere enim nulla est terra in qua haec secta non sit. Tertia, quia cum omnes aliae sectae immanitate blasphemiarum in Deum, audientibus horrorem inducant, haec scilicet Leonistarum, magnam habet speciem pietatis, eo quod coram hominibus iuste vivant, & benè omnia de Deo 〈◊〉, & omnes Articulos quin in symbolo continentur, solum modo Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant, & Clerum, cui multitudo Laicorum fa cilis est ad credendum. 〈◊〉. Hist. Franc. l. 1. p. 7. Edit. an. 1581. A Waldensibus & eorum in Aquitania ac vicina regione successoribus qui ab Albio, 〈◊〉 in septimania urbe primaria Albigenses dicti sunt. Hi invitis Principibus Christianis omnibus, Cirea annum 1100. & temporibus subsequentibus, doctrinam suam ab ea quam hodie protestantes amplectuntur 〈◊〉 differentem, non per Galliam 〈◊〉 totam, sed etiam per omnes 〈◊〉 Europae 〈◊〉 diffeminarunt. Nam Galli, 〈◊〉, Angli, Scoti, Itali, Germani, Bohemi, saxons, Poloni, Lithuani, & gentes aliae, came ad hunc diem pertinaciter defenderunt. an Inquisitor of the Church of Rome, living about the year one thousand two hundred fifty four, in a Book Printed at Ingolstade, writeth in this manner of the Waldenses, which he calleth Leonists: Among all Sects, which are or have formerly been, none is more pernicious to the Church than that of the Leonists. First, because it continued longer than any other, for some say it hath lasted ever since Pope Silvester, others say ever since the Apostles. Secondly, because no Sect is more general than this, for there is scarce any country, in which it is not found. Thirdly, whereas other Sects deter men with their horrible blasphemies, this Sect of the Leonists maketh a great show of godliness, because they live righteously before men, and believe all things rightly touching God, and concerning all other Articles of the ceded: only they blaspheme the Roman Church and Clergy, in which thing the Laity is forward to give credit unto them. Jesuit. Secondly, That Protestants cannot tell the time when the Church of Rome began to change and deviate from the Apostolical Doctrine, delivered by succession: Ergo, the Roman Church never changed her Faith. ANSWER. If the Antecedent were true, yet it followeth not, Ergo the same Roman Church never changed her Faith: For although we cannot tell the time when the progenitors of Abraham first began to change and deviate from the Doctrine of Noah, and Sem; yet it is certain, that they had changed their Religion a Ambros. lib. 2. cap. 3. & 7. d. Abraham. 〈◊〉. d. Ciuit. Dei, lib. 16. c. 12. Cedrenus compend. Histor. Genebrard. Chronol. lib. 1. An. 1949. Andr. Masius, sup. jos. 24. 〈◊〉. li. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Serm. 2. d. Poenit. Clement. Recognit. lib. 1. , josh. 24. 2. And were not the Sodomites transgressors of the Law of Nature, because the first beginning of their transgression cannot be known? How many wicked Customs have been common in the World, whose authors and first beginners were unknown to Posterity? The time is not known, when the late jewish Church did first change and corrupt the sense of the Moral Law, and brought in the Traditions condemned by our Saviour; and yet they had corrupted and changed the same. Matth. 5. & 6. & 7. & 15. & 19 & 23. If a Tenant have by himself and his predecessors long held an House, which is now in decay, and ready to drop down; the Landlord, by this Law of the jesuits, Ergo, shall never compel the Tenant to make reparation, unless he be able to demonstrate to the Tenant, in what year and month every Wall and Rafter began to decay. A Physician shall not purge a malignant humour out of a diseased body, unless he or his Patient be able to name the time and manner of that misdiet, which bred the first seed of this distemper. Jesuit. So that her Doctrines are to be received as Apostolical, supposing the Mayor of this Argument be true, That Doctrines universally received, whose beginning is not known, are to be believed as Apostolical: which is a August. lib. 4. d. Bap. contra Donat. c. 6. & 24. lib. 5. cap. 23. 〈◊〉. Defence, pag. 351, 352. Principle set down by Saint Augustine, allowed by Doctor Whitgift, late Archbishop of Canturburie, who in his Books written by public authority against Puritans, citing divers Protestants, as concurring in opinion with him, saith, Whatsoever Opinions are not known to have begun since the Apostles times, the same are not new, or secundary, but received their original from the Apostles. But because this Principle of Christian Divinity brings in (as M. Cartwright speaketh) all Popery, The Ward. of M. Cartwright alleged, ibid. pag. 352. in the judgement of all men; I will further demonstrate the same, though of itself clear enough. ANSWER. If the Mayor of this Argument were granted, to wit, Doctrines universally received, whose beginning is not known, are to be 〈◊〉 as Apostolical; yet the inference is false, because the Roman Doctrines opposed by us, were never universally received, but by many either not heard of, or rejected and contradicted. Neither is the former Principle sufficiently proved out of S. Augustine: First, because he speaketh in all the places objected, of Customs a August. d. Bapt. c. Don. lib. 5. cap. 23. Apostoli autem nihil quidem exinde preceperunt, sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano, ab eorum Traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est, sicut multa quae universa tenet Ecclesia, & ob hoc, ab Apostolis praecepta bene creduntur, quanquam scripta non inveniantur. At enim 〈◊〉 est de Haereticis, etc. and matters of Fact and Practice, the right and Doctrine whereof is found in holy Scripture. Secondly, the jesuit conveyeth into his Proposition certain words (to wit, Doctrines universally received, etc.) which are not found in S. Augustine. And this Father did never allow, that the universal Church should believe any thing, as Doctrine of Faith, which was not contained expressly, or derivatively, in holy Scripture b August. Epist. 142. Initium obedientiae est quid praecipiatur velle cognoscere, & pars est obsequij didicisse quid facias, Scito itaque in Scriptures Divinis, per quas solas potes plenam intelligere Dei voluntatem prohiberi quaedam, praecipi quaedam, concedi aliqua, nonnulla suaderi. Prohibentur mala, 〈◊〉 bona, conceduntur media, perfecta suadentur. : And in the same books, out of which these Objections are collected, he confuteth rebaptising, by Scripture, and confirmeth the lawfulness of Infant's Baptism by Scripture c Lib. 4. cap. 24. d. Bapt. c. Donatist. . So that his meaning is when matters being in common use, and practise, are questioned, the right and lawfulness hath warrant from the Scripture, although no especial example be found in the written Books of the Apostles, of such practice, yet the general custom and use of the universal Church in all Ages, argueth, that such practise received it beginning from the Apostles. For example: That the Apostles baptised Infants, is not particularly reported in their Writings; but sufficient grounds are found in them to prove the necessity, and to warrant the practice thereof. In this, and in all other the like cases, Quod universa tenet Ecclesia, nec 〈◊〉 institutum, sed semper retentum est, non nisi Authoritate Apostolica, traditum rectissimè creditur a August. d. Bapt. c. Don. lib. 4. cap. 24. Idem, Epist. 118. cap. 1. Illa autem quae non 〈◊〉 sed tradita custodimus, quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur, dantur intelligi, vel ab 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, vel plenarijs Concilijs quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima Authoritas, commendata atque statuta retineri, sicuti quod Domini Passio, & Resurrectio, & Ascensio in Coelum, & Aduentus de Coelo Spiritus Sancti, Anniversaria solennitate celebrantur. ; That which the universal Church holdeth, and which was not appointed by Counsels, but always observed, is most rightly believed to be none other, than a Tradition of the Apostles. Lastly, that which is produced out of BB. Whitgift and M. Cartwright, belongeth to the Titles or Names of Ecclesiastical Rulers, and to the matter of Ceremonies. Cartwright had a sour opinion against these, being never so ancient and inculpable. The most reverend BB. his Adversary answereth out of S. Augustine, Epist. 118. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures, and yet by Tradition observed of the whole Church, come either from Apostles, or from general Counsels, as the observing of Easter, the celebration of the day of Ascension, etc. The Bishop disputeth of adiaphorous Ceremonies, and Titles of Ecclesiastical persons, no ways unblamable, but because they are not expressly found in Scripture: and concerning such things, he saith, That because their original cannot be found out, it is to be supposed (it is probable) they have their beginning from the Apostles. But he speaketh not in this manner, touching dogmatic points, and Articles of Faith: Therefore our Adversary perverteth his words and meaning. Jesuit. The Spirit of Christ, or Christ by his Spirit, being still with the Church, cannot permit Errors in Faith so to creep into the Church, as they grow irreformable even by the Principles of Christianity. But if Errors could so creep into the Church, as their beginning could not be known since the Apostles, and never be espied till they be universally received, Errors could so creep into the Church, and prevail, that by the Principles of Christianity they are irreformable. This I prove, because Errors are irreformable by the Principles of Christianity, when whosoever undertakes to reform them by the Principles of Christianity, is to be condemned as an Heretic. But he that will undertake to reform Doctrines universally received by the Church, opposeth against the whole Church, and therefore is by the most received Principle of Christianity, by Christ's own direct Precept, to be accounted as an Heathen and Publican. And as S. Augustine saith, to dispute against the Matth. 18. v. 17. August. Epist. 118. whole Church, is most insolent madness, specially when the Doctrine is ancient, without any known beginning, as are the supposed erroneous Customs and Doctrines of the Roman Church: for then the undertaking Reformer must strive against, not only the whole present Church, but also the whole stream of the visible Church, time out of mind, since the Apostles. Et quis ad haec Idoneus? Who is able to begin a new course of Christianity, and to overthrow that Doctrine which is universally received, and cannot be proved by any Tradition of Ancestors to be otherwise planted in the World, but by the Apostles themselves, through the efficacy of innumerable Miracles? Wherefore these Doctrines, if they be Errors which by the Principles of Christianity no man ought to go about to reform, and seeing it is impossible that there should be any such Errors, we must acknowledge that Principle of S. Augustine as most certain, That Doctrines received universally in the Church, without any known beginning, are truly and verily Apostolical. And of this kind are the Roman, from which Protestants are gone. ANSWER. The Point which you labour to prove, is, That Doctrines universally received, whose beginning is not reported by Monuments of History and Antiquity, are Apostolical. You have taken that as granted, and presupposed, which we deny, to wit, That your Popish Doctrine was for a thousand years (at least) universally received. But this is a begging of the Question, and a false supposition: Wherefore I might, according to the rules of Disputation, pass by the other part of your Argument. But to clear all things more exactly, I will ex abundanti answer that which followeth. Your disputation about this part of the question, being resolved into the several Arguments and parts, may be thus conceived. No errors irreformable can be in the Church. All errors universally received, without a known beginning, are irreformeable. Ergo: No errors universally received, without a known beginning, can be in the Church. The Mayor is confirmed by an Argument, taken from the continual presence of Christ, by his Spirit, to the universal Church, for wheresoever Christ is perpetually present, and assistant by his holy Spirit, there it is impossible that irreformeable errors should prevail. I answer: No errors great or less, absolutely irreformeable, can be in the Church, as it signifieth the sounder and better part thereof: but errors irreformeable Ex Hypothesi, that is, presupposing the ignorance and malice of some overruling Prelates, may prevail in the hierarchical Church, which is vulgarly reputed, the universal Church; for such a Church may be the seat of Antichrist, and whiles he reigneth, errors may be incurable, jerem. 51. 9 Apoc. 17. 5. Neither doth the presence of Christ and of his Spirit, deliver the malignant part of the Church from irreformeable errors, but only the living members of his mystical Body, which are actuated, and moved by influence of saving Grace, john 8. 31, 32. Rom. 1. 28. 2. Thes. 2. 11. john 12. 40. The Assumption, to wit, All errors universally received, without a known beginning, are irreformeable, is denied. For although the errors of the Pharisees were universally received, according to the universality of the state of the Church in those days, without such a known beginning, as Papists require us to exhibit, concerning their errors; yet the same were reformeable by the word of Christ, and by the doctrine of the Prophets, in all such as received the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. But the jesuit proveth his Assumption by this reason. All errors are irreformeable, when they which seek to reform them, are Heretics by the Principles of Christianity. But all that seek to reform errors universally received, whose beginning is not known, are heretics by the principles of Christianity. Ergo: All errors universally received, without a known beginning, are irreformeable. The Minor of this Paralogism, is denied: and it is false, That all they which seek to reform errors universally received, are justly condemned as heretics, by the principles of Christianity. And the Argument produced to prove this Proposition, is of no force. Whosoever opposeth against the whole Church, is by the most received Principle of Christianity delivered, Matth. 18. 7. to be accounted as an Heathen or a Publican; and Saint Augustine saith, That to dispute against the whole Church is insolent madness. But whosoever seeketh to reform errors universally received, whose beginning is not known, opposeth against the whole Church. Ergo: All they which seek to reform errors, etc. are Heretics, by the Principles of Christiantie. ANSWER. Whosoever opposeth against the whole Church, taken as before, for the Church hierarchical or representative, a Occam. Dialog. part. 3. tr. 1. l. 3. c. 9 Lyra sup. Math. 16. Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus, ratione potestatis, vel dignitatis Ecclesiasticae, vel secularis, quia multi principes, & summi pontifices, & alij inferiores inventi sunt apostatasse à fide: propter quod Ecclesia consistit in illis personis, in quibus est notitia vera, & confessio fidei & veritatis. is not by the doctrine of our Saviour, and Saint Augustine, to be accounted an Heathen or Publican: but every one, which opposeth against the true Church inordinately, and without just cause, is only so to be accounted. First, there is opposition by way of counsel and advice, and this maketh no man an Heretic, as appeareth by Paphnutius, opposing the Council of Nice b Tripart. Hist. l. 2. c. 14. Niceph. Hist. Eccl. l. 8. c. 19 Gratian. Dist. 31. ca Nicen, Synodus. . Secondly, there is opposition by way of reprehension, and true confutation of error, by authority of the holy Scriptures c Athanas. d. Syn. Arim. & Seleuc. pa. 673. Scriptura divina omnibus Synodis potentior est. Hieron. sup. Galath, c. 1. spiritus sancti 〈◊〉 est, quae Canonicis literis est prodita, contra quam si quid statuant Concilia nefas duco. : And this also maketh no man an Heretic a Aquin. 22. q. 38. ar. 1. Chrysoft. sup. Rom. Ho. 22. Quae tui sunt officij, praesta, nemini dans ausam seu belli seu dissidij, sive Iude o sive Graeco, si vero alicubi 〈◊〉 labefactari videris, ne praeponas concordiam veritati: sed generose persist admorten usq, Cyril. Concil. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 1. c. 14. Aquin. 22. q. 33. ar. 4. Vbi imminet periculum fidei etiam publice essent 〈◊〉 à subditis arguendi. Gabr. sup. Can. Missae. lect. 74. Correctione 〈◊〉, inferiores, superiores 〈◊〉 non debent, nisi manifeste errarent in fide. Tunc enim si non adessent superiores vindicantes, velnollent, tunc per inferiores possunt puniri, quia Haeresis reddit Hereticum, omni Catholico inferiorem. Francisc. Picus. Mirand. Theorem. 8. 〈◊〉 Papae ligat omnes fideles ad non dogmatizandum contrarium, nifi per illos & apud illos qui manifestum contra fidem deprehendunt errorem, & scandalum grande fidei suo silentio fieri, si se non opponerent agnoscunt, quod si fieret persecutio sententiatum & paenarum contra eos, sciant 〈◊〉 esse qui persecutionem patiuntur propter iustitìam. Idem. Theorem. 16. Si pars maior contra divinas literas contraque ea quae violate nefas est, decernere quicquani vellet reliquis qui pauciores essent contra 〈◊〉: numero minori adhaerendum esset quemadmodum accidit in Arimensi Concilio & in Ephesino secundo: 〈◊〉 simplici potius rustico & infanti & anniculae quam & 〈◊〉 maximo & mille Episcopis credendum, si contra Euangelium isti, illi pro Euangelio verba facerent. : because he that in a lawful manner, propugneth the faith of the Scriptures, maintaineth the Law and verity of God, and fulfilleth the Divine Precept, requiring man to contend for the truth: 1. Tim. 6. 11. 2. Tim. 4. 7. And also performeth a work of charity, in labouring to convert people from error, jam. 5. 19, 20. Saint Augustine's place, Epist. 118. c. 5. ad januar. is understood of outward ceremonies, and adiaphorous rites b Aug. ibid. c. 1. Quae nonscripta sed tradita custodimus, quae quidem toto terrarum or be obseruantur, dantur intelligi yel ab ipsis Apostolis, vel plenarijs Concilijs, quorum est in Ecclesia saluberima Authoritas, commendata arque Statuta retineri, sicut quod passio Domini, etc. 〈◊〉 solennitate celebrantur, etc. Totum hoc genus rerum liberas habet obseruationes, etc. , in respect of their use unblameable, and not of matters of faith; and therefore it appertaineth not to the question in hand. JESVITS 4th Argument. That doctrine, which Tradition hath delivered, as the doctrine of all Ancestors, without delivering any Orthodox opposition against it, that is, opposition made by any confessed Catholic Doctors or Fathers, is doctrine derived from the Apostles, without change. ANSWER. This Proposition is denied: for new Doctrine may be brought in, after the decease of the ancient Fathers, and because the same was unheard of in their days, they could make no such plain and direct opposition against it, as that either Historians might take notice thereof, or the maintainers of such Doctrine have no evasion, by distinctions and sophistical slights, to elude their Testimonies. Jesuit. But such is the Doctrine of the Roman Church, which Consent and Tradition of Ancestors doth deliver, and doth not together deliver, that any confessed Orthodox Father opposed against it. ANSWER. Some Doctrines of the later Roman Church were opposed by the ancient Roman Bishops themselves, to wit, Adoration of Images, by Gregory the Great a Greg. 〈◊〉. 9 Ep. 9 Eas 〈◊〉 . : Communion in one kind, by Leo the first b : Transubstantiation, by Gelasius the first c 〈◊〉 con. Nestor. & Eurich. No definite esse substantia vel natura Panis & 〈◊〉. : The temporal dominion of Popes and Bishops over Princes, by S. Chrysostome, d Chrys. super Rom. 13. hom. 23. , Optatus Milevitanus e Optatus con. Parmen. lib. 3. , and Gregory the first f Greg. lib. 2. ep. 61. Sacerdotes meos tuae manui commissi, etc. 〈◊〉 ergo quae debui exolui qui & Imperatori obedientiam praebui & pro Deo quod sensi minime tacui. : The dignity and title of universal Bishop, by the same Gregory g Idem lib. 6. epist. 30. Ego sidentèr dico, quià quisquis se universalem Sacerdotem vocar vel vocari desiderat, in elatione sua Antechristum praecurrit, quià 〈◊〉 biendo se caeteris praeponit. : And the Doctrine of Papals, preferring the old Translation before the original Text h Hieron. sup. Nah. c. 1. Aduersus conscientiam meam cogor interdum, vulgatae aeditionis consequentiam texere. Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 2. ca 11. ; making Apocryphal books Canonical i Hieron. Greg. m. & alij. Occam Dial. pa. 3. li. 〈◊〉. 16. , liber Indith, Tobiae, Machabeorum, Ecclesiastici, Sapientiae, non sunt recipiendi ad confirmandum aliquid in fide. ; prohibiting lay people to read the Scriptures k Chrys. sup Genes. hom. 29. Ambr. serm. 35 Hieron. epist. ad , etc. Cyril. c. 〈◊〉. li. 7. Theoph. sup. 〈◊〉. 6. Primasius sup. Coloss. 3. Chrys. in , quomodò & vobis potissimùm 〈◊〉 Scripturas legere, idque non simplicitèr nequè obitèr sed magna diligentia, etc. Audite obsecro Biblia, animae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aliud vultis, vel nowm Testamentum, acquirite Apostolorum Acta, Euangelia continuos & sedulos Doctores. Hoc demùm malorum omnium causa est, quod Scripturae ignorantur. ; and exalting the authority of the present Church above the Scriptures, are condemned by many ancient Fathers. Jesuit. We know indeed by Tradition, that some in former times stood against many points of the Roman Doctrine, as Arrius, Pelagius, Waldo, the Albigenses, Wiclife, Husse, and some others; but they are not confessed 〈◊〉 Fathers, but were noted for novelty and singularity, and for such by Tradition described unto us, which kind of opposition doth not discredit the Doctrine of the Church, but rather makes the same to appear more clearly and famously Apostolical. ANSWER. 〈◊〉 opposed the Doctrine of the holy 〈◊〉 and of the 〈◊〉 Church, and was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉, and the Fathers of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and that by the Scriptures a Socrat. Hist. 〈◊〉. li. 1. ca 6. Cusan. Concord. Cath. li 2. c. 6. Et secundú testimonia 〈◊〉 decrevit Synodus. : and the Pelagians were 〈◊〉 convicted by S. Augustine, and his Scholars, out of the holy Scripture. And although Pope Celestine approved S. Augustine's Faith, and condemned these Heretics b Epist. Coelest. 1. ad 〈◊〉. Galliae, tom. 1. Concil. , yet that was not the principal reason whereupon they were reputed Heretics, by the Christian world, but the falsehood of their Doctrine (proved such by repugnancy with the Scriptures c Aug. epist. 92. 〈◊〉 sanctitatis 〈◊〉, de sanctarum Scripturarum authoritate depromptae, faciliùs eos qui tam perversa & perniciosa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cessuros. ) made them to be so esteemed. And how many Heretics were discovered and confuted by the Fathers of the first three hundred years, out of the Scriptures, before the Roman Church ascended to the height of authority d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Mirandul. Theor. 8. Conuentus agebantur, quibus absquè Pontifice, in causis Fidei, quid sanctum, quid prophanum esset decernebatur. . The Waldenses were no Heretics, as I have formerly proved, but were only branded with that aspersion, by Papals, whose pride and tyranny they did oppose: and had S. Paul e sylvest Prior. li. d. Mod. Inquir. pa. 24. Ego credo si S. Hieronimus & Augustinus hodie viverent, aut etiam ipse Apostol' Paulus, vix evaderent ignem, tàm excellentes sunt Inquisitores in ingenijs. himself been alive, and reproved the error and wickedness of the Babylonian Harlot, he must not have escaped her censure and malice. Wicliffe and Husse, were blessed instruments of Christ, vindicating and defending God's Truth, withheld in Iniquity; neither did they hold such blasphemies as the Romists cast upon them. They might have some opinions in points less material, wherein perhaps they concur not with our Doctrine, as likewise the Waldenses; but as for those vile reports which Romists make of their Doctrine, no indifferent person will regard it: for even at this day, when things are in present view and action, you calumniate the persons, and falsify the Doctrine f Campian. Rat. 8. Norint isti svorum axiomata. d'ye est author peccati. Nullum, nullum, non duo, non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reliquerunt. Si 〈◊〉 uxor aut non possit veniat aucilla. Decalogus nihil ad Christianos. Opera nostra Deus nequaquam curate, etc. Rubenus. li. d. fals-Proph. ca 20. Polluunt se vaga libidine, uxore proximi, 〈◊〉, socrus cum nuru, pater cum filia. Id. c. 9 Conciona tores & foeminaespoliatis omnibus vestibus, supra mensas, etc. turpissima 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in spectantibus. of all your Opposites, as grossly as ever Pagans traduced the Primitive Christians. And many of the Books and Writings of Wicliffe and Husse are extant, wherein are found no such Doctrines as Papists have charged them with. Jesuit. Seeing (as even Doctor Field doth confess) when a Field, lib. 4. of the Church, ca 14. Doctrine is in any age constantly delivered, as a matter of Faith, and as received from Ancestors in such sort as the Contradictors thereof were in the beginning noted for Novelty, and (if they persisted in contradiction) in the end charged with 〈◊〉, it is not possible but such a Doctrine should come by Succession from the Apostles. What more evident sign of a perpetual Apostolical Tradition than this? ANSWER. You mistake the Doctor's meaning, for he speaketh of the most famous and eminent of every age, in sensu composito, that is, of the most famous and eminent of every age, which consent and agree the latter with the former. But he affirmeth not, in sensu 〈◊〉, that whatsoever the most famous in any one particular age constantly delivered, etc. is descended from the Apostles. Whiles this reverend Divine was living, such passages of his book were objected against him, by Papists, which caused him to explain himself, and among other things, he saith a D. Field. Appendix. p. 3. cap. 7. pag. 42. , I never make the judgement and opinion of present Bishops of Apostolical Churches, to be the rule to know Traditions by, but deny it, etc. And make only the Pastors of Apostolical Churches successively from the beginning, witnessing the same things, to be a rule in this kind. Jesuit. Protestants answer, that it is sufficient that the Roman Doctrine was contradicted by Orthodox Fathers, and that this may be proved by their writings which they have left unto posterity, though their opposition was not noted by Antiquity, nor by fame of Tradition delivered unto posterity. But this answer leaves no means whereby common people may know certainly the perpetual Tradition of God's Church, without exact examining and looking into their works, which common people cannot do. I prove it, if against every Tradition of the Church, difficile and obscure passages of the Fathers may be brought, and this doth suffice to make the same questionable; then no Tradition can be certainly known without exact reading and examining, and looking into the holy Fathers. But no Tradition or Doctrine is so constantly and clearly delivered by the Fathers, but diverse obscure and difficile places, out of their works, may be brought against them, with such a show, that common people shall not know what to say. For what Tradition more constantly delivered by the Christian Doctors than our Saviour's consubstantiality with his Father according to his divine nature? See 〈◊〉. li. 〈◊〉. d. Christ. c. 10. And yet the new reformed Arrians bring very many testimonies of ancient Fathers to prove, that in this point they did contradict themselves, and were contrary one to another: which places whosoever shall read, will clearly see, that to common people they are unanswerable, yea, that common people are not capable of the answers that learned men yield unto such obscure passages. What then shall they do? They must answer, that Antiquity did never acknowledge such dissension among the Fathers, in the point of our Saviour's consubstantiality; which they would not have omitted to do, had there been any such real dissension, seeing they noted the Father's opposition in lesser matters. ANSWER. That which was brought in after the days of the Fathers, could not be confuted by them particularly, and in express terms; neither could Antiquity, or fame of Tradition, make report to Posterity of those things which happened afterwards. But yet many things uttered upon other occasion, are found in the writings of the Fathers, which prove, that our present Romists are degenerated, and entertain a belief repugnant to the Primitive Church. But it is objected that common people cannot know certainly the perpetual Tradition of God's Church by such places of the Fathers, partly because the exact examining of the works and sayings of the Fathers, requires great labour and skill, and so it exceedeth the ability of these people, partly because many obscure and difficile passages are found in the writings of the Fathers, which will rather perplex common people, than resolve them. whereunto I answer, That the rule whereby common people must examine Doctrine, is the plain sentence of holy Scripture a Aug. sup. Psal. 93. Sicut Stellas in Coelo non extinguitnox, sic mentes fidelium inhaerentes 〈◊〉 Scripturae 〈◊〉, non vineit 〈◊〉. : and further trial and examination of Controversies by the Fathers, and Ecclesiastical Writers, belongeth to the learned, and principally to the Pastors and Doctors of the Church, who are to use their gifts, to the instructing of the common people. If the Adversary shall object, that Heretics and deceivers may impose a false sense upon the Scripture. I answer: That notwithstanding this, sufficient matter is found in the Scripture, to confute heretical exposition, a Greg. Mor. l. 〈◊〉. c. 8. Superbientes Haereticos & sacrae Scripturae sententias deferentes, quasi elatum Goliam suo gladio detruncamus. and God always stirreth up some Pastors or other learned persons, to assist common people, which have received the love of truth, in true understanding of divine verity necessary to their salvation. Secondly, If the Scripture may be abused and profaned by heretics, Tradition may with greater colour be pretended or abused by them (as appeareth by the Pharisees.) Thirdly, Tradition is founded upon the authority of a present hierarchical Church, which may err, by the confession of many learned Papists b Occam. Dial. part. 3. tr. 1. l. 3. c. 9 Lyra sup. Math. 16. Cusan. Concord. Cath. li. 2. c. 3. Multa Concilia etiam rite convocata, errasse legimus. Gerson. l. d. Appellat. à Pontif. propos. 4. & citatur à Francise. Pic. Mirandul. Theor. 8. Tam Papa quam Episcopus sunt deviabiles à fide. Nichol. Clemangis Disp. sup. materia. Gen. Concilij. . But the Scripture is founded only upon the authority of Christ and his Apostles, and is acknowledged to be sacred and divine, by all Christian Churches. Jesuit. In the same manner, Catholics do sufficiently answer Protestants, that bring places of Fathers against the received Traditions of the Church: as the real Presence, Invocation of Saints, and other the like, to wit, that Tradition, delivered these Doctrines, as the uniform consent of the Fathers, and never noted such oppositions as Protestants frame out of their writings, which is a clear sign, that Protestants either misalleadge their words, or mistake their meaning. For were that contradiction real; Why did not Antiquity famously note it, as it noted and conveyed by fame to posterity, their differences about disputable matters? This Answer is full, and a certain ground of persuasion; else (as I said) common people could never know the assured Tradition of their Ancestors, upon which, they (as I proved) build their Christian belief: seeing, as Doctor Field also noteth, there be few, and Field. of the Church. in his Epist. Dedicat. very few, that have leisure and strength of judgement, to examine particular controversies by Scriptures or Fathers, but needs must rest in that doctrine which the Church delivers, as a Tradition never contradicted. To discredit therefore a constant received Tradition, it is necessary to bring an Orthodox contradiction thereof; not newly found out by reading the Fathers, but a contradiction by the fame of Antiquity delivered unto Posterity: which kind of contradiction they cannot find, against any point of Catholic Doctrine. For let them name but one Father, whom Antiquity doth acknowledge as a contradictor of Invocation of Saints, Adoration of the Sacrament, Real presence, Prayer for the Dead; they cannot certainly, though they bring divers places to prove (a thing which Antiquity never noted, or knew of before) that the Fathers be various, and wavering about these Points. ANSWER. The Doctrine of Real Presence, by way of Transubstantiation, and the Doctrine of Invocation of Saints, imposed as an Article of the Creed, etc. were never delivered by any uniform consent of the ancient Fathers, neither hath ancient Tradition affirmed, That the Fathers uniformly taught and believed these points. And as for later Tradition, the authority thereof is doubtful, deserving no credit, further than it confirmeth that which it delivereth, by the testimony of Witnesses more infallible than itself. They which have lived in succeeding Ages, have no certain means to assure them what the ancient Fathers taught, but either their own Books and Monuments, or the testimony of their Coaevalls. And later Traditioners may both corrupt the Writings of the Fathers a Pammel. 〈◊〉. Cyprian. sup. Concil. Carthag. nu. 1. Vnde colligimus Cypriani scripta, ut & aliorum veterum, à librarijs, vary fuisse interpolata. , and also by report, impose a false Tenet upon them. Our Adversary therefore beats the air, when he laboureth to gain the Fathers unto his part, upon the sole Testimony of latter Tradition, and upon a Negative Argument b Gillius, Com. Theol. d. Sac. Doct. & Deo, lib. 1. tr. 7. cap. 14. Argumentum 〈◊〉, non est firmum ad convellendum Dogma aliquod sive 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Argumentum negatiwm est, cum ex eo quod patres aliquid non dixerint, aut hoc vel illo loquendi genere non usi fuerint, concludit aliquis. , taken from the silence of the Roman Church, omitting (in partiality towards itself) the Narration of such Collections, and Oppositions, as were made against the Doctrine thereof, out of the Fathers. But when we charge the Papalls with Novelty, we proceed upon more evident grounds: First we prove, that the Romish Faith, opposed by us, hath no foundation or warrant in sacred Scripture: Secondly, the same is an addition to the ancient Rule of Faith a Albert. 1. sent. dist. 11. ar. 7. Regula fidei, est concors, Scripturatum sensus, cum articulis fidei (in Symbolo Apost.) Quia illis duobus regularibus Praeceptis, regitur Theologus. : Thirdly, the said Doctrine is not derived by perpetual and uniform Tradition, from the Apostles: Fourthly, the primitive Fathers virtually opposed this Doctrine: For although these Popish Articles, as they are now explicitly maintained, were not in perfect being in the days of the ancient Fathers, and therefore they could not so punctually or literally oppose them, as we do; yet in their Disputations, Tractats, and exposition of Scripture, they utter many things, from which we may collect that they believed not these Articles, and that the same were no part of the Catholic Faith, in their days; and that if such Opinions had been thrust upon the Church (for Articles of Faith) in their days (as now they are) they would have opposed them. But our Adversary pleaseth himself immoderately with his Negative Argument, concluding, That because no Historical and express opposition was made against these Doctrines by the ancient Fathers, therefore the Tradition of the present Roman Church, concerning these Doctrines, is Apostolical. As if a man should conclude, That because no express opposition was made against the Pharisees by the ancient jewish Church, therefore their Traditions were divine. But if the sequel of this Argument be good, than the Proposition following is necessary, to wit, Every Doctrine against which the ancient Fathers have not made express and literal opposition, is Apostolical. But this is false, because some Heresies sprang up in the Church after the decease of the ancient Fathers; and against those they could make no such opposition, unless they had been endued with Prophetical inspiration. But if (as our Adversary objecteth) every Doctrine is Apostolical, against which the ancient Fathers made no express and Historical opposition, than the Articles following (which Protestants maintain) are Apostolical; to wit, The Roman Bishop and Council may err, The substance of Bread and Wine remain in the holy Eucharist, after consecration, The common Prayer and Service of the Church, which the unlearned frequent, aught to be uttered in a known Language. These (I say) and the like Articles, according to the jesuits Argument, must be Apostolical, because no express Historical or literal opposition was made against them by the ancient Fathers. But the jesuit will peradventure except, That every Doctrine delivered by the Tradition of the Roman Church, against which the Fathers have made no express opposition, is Apostolical, and not every other Doctrine. This verily, or any thing else as wild and absurd, may be pretended; but it must be proved; before it can merit any credit a August. c. Parmen. Lib. 1. cap. 2. Ipse sine documentis 〈◊〉 quitur, & vult nihil probans credi sibi. Idem, c. Donatist. Lib. 7. cap. 48. Hic quia nullam rationem, aut testimonium Scripturarum attulit, diu nos tenere non debet. . And if the Roman Church may err, and change her Doctrine, after the decease of the ancient Fathers, than the Doctrine delivered by the Tradition of the Roman Church, is of the same quality with the Doctrine delivered by the Tradition of other Churches. But the first is true, Rom. 11. 22. and there is nothing promised in Divine Writ to the Roman Church, to free the same from Error, more than to the Churches of 〈◊〉 Antioch, Ephesus, etc. For Jerusalem was the prime Mother Church, Esa. 2. 3. Luc. 24. 47. and the first Seat of all the Apostles; Ephesus was the Episcopal Sea of S. john, and it was once a Ground and Pillar of Truth, 1. Tim. 3. 15. and Antioch was the Episcopal Sea of S. Peter b Martyrolog. Rom. Notat. Galesin. 8. Cal. Martij, Cathedra. S. Petri Apost. Huius Cathedrae Antiochinae. S. Ignatius meminit in Epistola ad Magnefianos, Historiamque narrat. S. Clemens, Lib. 10. Recognitionum. Eam beatus Petrus fundasse & instituisse traditur anno Christi Dom. 38. ut ab Eusebio Annalium Monimentis proditum est. Septem autem annis ad illius gubernacula sedit. , Baron. Annal. to. 1. anno 39 nu. 20. And yet every one of these Apostolical Churches are departed from their ancient integrity. Wherefore, except Romists can demonstrate by divine testimony, that their Prelates and Pontifes have singular and ample promises beyond other Apostolical Churches, they beg the question, when they arrogate sole perfection, infallibility, and immutability to themselves c Lorich. Institut. Cath. in Symb. ar. 10. pag. 49. Non tamen 〈◊〉 sedis (Rom.) Rectores, se statim efferant, tanquam illa sola Ecclesia sit, & ut loquuntur, exclusive Ecclesia Catholica sit, quasi oporteat sine iudicio, continuo probatum iri, quicquid ex illa sede enatum fuerit, & ad omnes Doctrinas & Constitutiones Pontificis, nihil sit ad ferendum, nisi ipse dixit. Hoc si illi sedi tribuerimus, omnibus erroribus Ecclesiam Catholicam exposuerimus. . THE SECOND PART of the jesuits Disputation, concerning the supposed Errors of the PROTESTANTS. Jesuit. THe Conclusion of this Point, showing that Protestants err fundamentally. ANSWER. THis Conclusion is inferred upon false Premises, and therefore it is a Lying Conclusion. And if Protestants err not in all, or any of the Articles objected, either materially, or pertinaciously, than they err not fundamentally. Jesuit. Out of all this appears, that the Roman is the true Church, and consequently, that Protestants have fundamental Errors about Faith. ANSWER. If the Antecedent were granted, yet the Consequence is not necessary: for the Church of Africa, in the days of Saint Cyprian, was a true Church; and yet they which believed otherwise, touching rebaptising a 〈◊〉. Carthag. de Bap. Haeret. apud Cyprian. , than that Church, erred not either materially, or fundamentally. Jesuit. Errors are fundamental, that is, damnable, either in regard of the matter, because against some substantial Article of Faith, the knowledge whereof is necessary for the performance of a required Christian duty; or in regard of the manner, they are held, to wit, so obstinately, as in defence of them, one denies the Catholic Church. ANSWER. The distinction of errors into fundamental, and preterfundamentall, is collected out of the Scriptures: 1. Cor. 3. 12. Phil. 3. 15, 16. 2. Tim. 2. 18. Col. 2. 19 Heb. 6. 1. And the same is found in the Fathers a Aug. c. julian. Pelag. l. 1. c. 6. Alia sunt in quib' inter se aliquando etiam Doctissimi atque optimi regulae Catholicae Defensores, salua fidei compage non consonant & alius alio de una re melius aliquid dicit & verius, hoc autem unde nunc agimus, ad ipsa perrinet fidei fundamenta. 〈◊〉. Ep. 143. Sunt alia in quibus perniciosissimè erratur, etc. , and in the Schoolmen, in terms aequivalent b Aquin. 22. q. 2. ar. 5. Occam. Dial. p. 1. li. 2. c. 2. Stapl. Rel. c. 1. q. 3. ar. 6. notab. 1. . As all verities (according to St. Augustine) are fundamental, without the knowledge and faith whereof, people cannot attain salvation c Aug. Enchir. c. 20. Sunt vera quae nisi credantur ad vitam beatam quae non nisi aeterna est non potest perveniri, etc. Idem. d. Bon. pursue. cap. 21. Sed interest quantum & in quibus rebus erretur. etc. : so likewise all errors, directly opposing, and destroying right Faith, concerning those necessary and essential verities, are fundamental: 1. Tim. 6. 3. 1. Cor. 15. 4, etc. Gal. 5. 2. All necessary and essential verity, either concerning Faith, or good manners (according to St. Augustine d Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. l. 2. c. 9 In iis enim quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque vivendi. Idem. d. Pecc. mer. & Remiss. l. 2. c. 35. Illud tamen credo, quod etiam hinc divinorum eloquiorum clarissima authoritas esset, si homo illud sine dispendio promissae salutis ignorare non posset. ) is delivered in plain places of holy Scriptures: and therefore they which accuse others of fundamental error, must produce plain and manifest Scripture against them e Id d. unit. Eccles. c. 12. Si non ea de Scriptures sanctis legunt, sed suis contentionibus persuadere conantur, credo 〈◊〉 quae in Scriptures sanctis leguntur, non credo ista quae ab haereticis vanis dicuntur. Ib. c. 3. Auferantur illa de medio, quae adversus nos in vicem, non ex divinis Canonicis libris, sed aliunde recitamus. : And if after such ostension, Errants continue obstinate f Aug. d. Ciu. Dei. l. 18. c. 51. Qui in Ecclesia Dei morbidum aliquid prawmque sapiunt, si correpti utsanum rectumque sapiant, resistunt contumaciter, suaque pestifera & mortifera dogmata emendare nolunt, sed defensare persistunt, haeretici fiunt, etc. , they are guilty both before God and men, of damnable Heresy, and deserve the title and punishment of Heretics. These things being premised, concerning the Subject of the jesuits Proposition; I deny that errors in secondary points, defended against the common tenet of the Catholic Church, are always fundamental: for 〈◊〉. Cyprian, with 80. Bishops of Africa a Concil. Carthag. apud Cyprian. , did stiffly defend Rebaptising, against the common judgement of the Catholic Church, and yet S. August. freeth them from the guiltiness of damnable error. Secondly, if all such error be damnable, yet the Protestants are innocent, because they defend no error, great or small, wilfully or obstinately, neither do they oppose, but humbly submit themselves to the judgement of the true Catholic Church. The Pharisees of Rome enroabe themselves with glorious titles; but where doth the word of Christ endow them with privileges beyond other Churches: show us out of the holy Evangelists, or the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles b Aug. d. unit. Eccles. c. 6. Legite nobis hoc de lege, de Prophetis de Psalmis de ipso Euangelio, de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is, legite & credimus. Ibid. c. 15. Legant nobis hoc de Scripturis sanctis & credimus. Hoc, inquam ex Canone divinorum librorum legant, etc. 〈◊〉 nobis hoc ex divinis oraculis. , that you are the only Catholic Church. All fundamental verity is delivered in the plain Texts of Scripture c Chrys. 〈◊〉 2. Thes. Hom. 3. In divinis Scripturis quae cunque necessaria sunt manifesta sunt. , Aug. d. Doct. Christ. l. 2. c. 9 And all fundamental error is condemned by manifest Scripture, Et Catholica fides in Scriptures manifesta est, The true Catholic faith is manifest in the Scriptures, Aug. d. Agon. Christ. c. 28. Ecclesia nonin parietibus consistit, sed in dogmatum veritate, Ecclesia ibi est, ubi vera fides est: The Church of Christ consisteth not of outward Titles and walls, but of the verity of Doctrine. Wheresoever true Faith is, there is the Church, saith S. Hierom. sup. Psal. 133. Where Faith is, there is the Church, saith Saint Chrysostome: Where right Faith is not, there is not the true Church. Et Ecclesia est Jerusalem, cuius fundamenta posita sunt super montes Scripturarum: And the Church is Jerusalem, whose foundations are placed upon the mountains of the d Chrys. Imperf. sup. Mat. Hom. 6. Scriptures: Eruite igitur aliquid manifestum, quo demonstretis Ecclesiam e Aug. d. unit. Eccles. c. 16. . If therefore Papals will force us to believe, that they are the only Catholic Church, and that we must follow their Pope (though he lead us to hell) f Dist. 40. c. Si Papa. bring something evident, and manifest out of the holy Scripture. Si divinarum Scripturarum earum scilicet, quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur, perspicua firmatur Authoritate, sine ulla dubitatione credendum est. 〈◊〉 vero testibus vel testimonijs, quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi, credere vel non credere liceat, etc. If (saith S. Augustine) g Aug. Epist. 112. c. 1. Si divinarum Scripturarum, earum scilicet quae Canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur, 〈◊〉 firmatur authoritate, sine ulla dubitatione credendum est. aliis vero testibus veltestimonijs, quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur, tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum meriti ea admonentem ad faciendum fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis. it be confirmed by the perspicuous authority of those divine Scriptures which are Canonical, it must, without all question, be believed: but as for other witnesses and testimonies, by which any thing is persuaded to be believed, it is lawful for thee to believe or not believe them, as thou shalt perceive them to deserve credit. Jesuit. Fundamental errors of the first kind, Protestants have 〈◊〉, particularly these Nine. ANSWER. Malice always fighteth against Virtue, and laboureth to impose and rub off her own faults upon it, a Chrys. sup. Gen. Hom. 62. Malitia semper contra Virtutem pugnat, & ei sua peccata Affricare & 〈◊〉 vult. and all they whose breasts and minds are inhabited by Satan, testify their venomous rage with furious words b Cyprian. Epist. 55. Omnes quorum pectora & mentes diabolus obsedit venenatam rabiem suam furiosa voce testantur. . If this Traducer be able to convince the Protestants of Nine, or of any one fundamental error, we must acknowledge, that we are in a perilous state: but if he only deprave and falsify our doctrine c Aug. d. Nupt. & Concupisc. l. 2. c. 2. Quae verba tam recta & tanta luce fulgentia tenebrosis & tortuosis expositionibus, etc. depravare moliuntur. , or affirm that to be fundamental error, which is divine verity, than he proveth himself to be one of his Ministers, of whom S. Gregory speaketh d Greg. sup. Reg. l. 1. c. 2. 〈◊〉 Antichristi est amor perfidiei, quo fidei 〈◊〉 Redemptoris. Idem. Moral. l. 13. c. 6. Sicut incarnata veritas in praedicatione sua pauperes Idiotas & simplices eligit, sic contrario damnatus ille homo Antichristus, etc. Ad predicandas falsitaté suam astutos & duplices 〈◊〉 est. , Perfidious dealing is in the Tabernacle of Antichrist, whereby he gainesayeth the faith of the Redeemer. Jesuit. First, their Doctrine against Traditions unwritten, whereby the foundation is overthrown, on which we believe all other substantial and fundamental points, as hath been showed. ANSWER. Either you wilfully falsify, or ignorantly mistake the Protestants Doctrine, concerning unwrttten Tradition. First, we admit in general, all unwritten Traditions, agreeing with the holy Scripture e Chem. Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 1. d. Trad. pa. 68 Apostoli multa tradiderunt viva voce. Apostolici ab Apostolis ex Traditione vivae vocis multa acceperunt quae suis postea discipulis rursus tradiderunt. Sed Ireneus inquit omnia 〈◊〉 fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consona Scriptures. Et nos eorum nihil reijcimus, sed omnia quae Scripturis sanctis consentanea sunt, suscipimus & veneramur. , which are derived from the Apostles, and delivered unto us, by the manifest and perpetual testimony of the Primitive Church f Calvin. c. Pighium. d. libero Arb. Non difficulter posset inter 〈◊〉 & Pighium convenire, si modo Ecclesiae Traditionem ex certo & perpetuo 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, non ex testimonijs hinc inde male 〈◊〉 demonstraret. Gesner. l. sup. loc. Paul. 2. Tim. 3. 16. c. 7. Si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Traditiones eadem via per testificationem antiquissimae & Apostolicae Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 nostra usque tempora, deduxerint, 〈◊〉 eas. Reza ad. Repet. Saint. Resp. pa. 13. , and by the uniform consent of succeeding Churches in all ages. Secondly, we believe in particular, the historical Traditions of the Primative, and succeeding Churches, concerning the dignity, authority, perfection, authors, number, and integrity of the books of Canonical Scripture a Chem. ibid. pa. 69. Et hanc Traditionem qua nobis in manum dantur sacrae Scripturae libri reverenter accipimus. Aug. d. Ciuit. Dei, li. 15. c. 23. & d. Doctrina Christ. h. 2. c. 8. etc. Faust. Manich. li. 11. c. 2. D. Fulke c. Rhem. 2. Thess. 2. num. 19 The books of the Scripture are given by Tradition, but the matter written in the books doth justify the Tradition to be true. , and also the Historical Tradition of the said Church, concerning the perpetual virginity of the blessed Virgin Marie b Aug. d. Dogm. Eccles. c. 69. , and concerning the baptism of infants c Aug. d. Gen. ad Lit. li. 10. c. 23. , and all other genuine Traditions, which maintain the Faith and Doctrine, contained expressly, or by consequent in the Scripture. Thirdly, we embrace such exposition of holy Scripture d Chem. Exam. p. 74. Quartum genus Traditionun, est de Expositione, vero sensu, seu nativa sententia Scriptutae. Tertul. d. prescript. ca 20. & 21. & 37. etc. Martion. lib. 4. cap. 5. , as being consonant to the rule of Faith, and to the text of Scripture, is affirmed by ancient Tradition, to have descended from the holy Apostles. Fourthly, we believe the rule of Faith contained in the Apostles Creed e Chem. ibid. pa. 70. etc. Tertium genus Traditionum, etc. pa. 74. Descripsi haec Symbola ut ostenderem nos non reprobare quas certò constat veras & antiquas esse Apostolorum Traditiones. Aug. d. Fid. & Smbo. c. 1. & Serm. 115. de Temp. Ruff. Expos. Symb. Hier. epist. 61. ad Pammach. c. 9 Cassand. Def. lib. d. Offic. bon. 〈◊〉. pa. 820. Intelligentia Scripturae quae ex Traditione percipitur, non est ab ipsa Scriptura seperanda cum in ea contineatur, vel tanquam definitio in definito, vel tanquam conclusio in praemissis. , both upon the authority of Christ's written word, and also upon the voice and testimony of unwritten Tradition. If it shall then be demanded, Wherefore do the Romists and you so eagrely contend about the question of Traditions? and wherein lies your difference? we answer as followeth. First, we yield the highest and most sovereign authority to the sacred Scripture f Thom. Wald. Doctr. fid. li. 2. ar. 2. c. 27. n. 7. Videtis sequendum esse in Ecclesia Catholica gradatim authoritatem multiplicem Doctorum, scilicet, Cotholicorum omnium: 〈◊〉 sanctorum magis, Ecclesiarum Apostolicarum potius & ex eis ampliùs Romanae Ecclesiae: & abundantius his omnibus authoritatem Concilij generalis: nec tamen alicni iàm dictae ita obediendum censea & tàm prona fide, sicut primae fidei Scripturae. Ibid. 〈◊〉. Omnis Ecclesiastica authoritas cum sit ad testificandum de Christo & 〈◊〉 eius, vilior est Christi 〈◊〉, & Scriptures sanctis necessariò post ponenda. Ibid. Longè distat authoritas 〈◊〉, & eminet 〈◊〉 cunctorum Doctorum etiàm totius Ecclesiae Catholicae, quamuis super cius authoritate Catholica 〈◊〉 Ecclesia. , and make the voice and sentence thereof a supreme rule, and judge of supernatural Verity; and we make Tradition unwritten, subordinate, and ministerial to holy Scripture, admitting the same so far forth only, as it is conformable to the Scripture, and rejecting the contrary. Secondly, we affirm, that the Canonical Scripture containeth all supernatural Verity necessary to salvation, and being received and understood, is a sufficient and perfect rule of Faith a Casland. Def. lib. d. Offic. pij viri. Nemo tam insanus est ut dicat cognitionem salutis non ex divinis literis, sed ex Taditione 〈◊〉 maiorum hauriendam. Idem. pa. 841. Non quià Canon solus non sibi ad universa sufficiat etc. Jdem pa. 827. Non negamus ex sola Scriptura peti ceitam definitionem etc. Idem. pag. 832. Illud inter nos convenit nihil esse huiusmodi non Scriptarum Traditionum quae non cum eis quae scripta sunt conveniunt atquè adeò in his quae scripta sunt non comprehen duntur. , and the sole doctrine thereof is sufficient to instruct the whole Church, and every member thereof to salvation. And, that Tradition unwritten maketh no addition, or increase of new Articles of Faith, but is only an help and instrument b Meisner. Consult. c. Lesseum. p. 590. Neque tamèn Traditiones simplicitèr omnes reijcimus, sed si quae probatae sunt & à pat. ibus constantèr traditae illas recipimus, non utfidei mensuram sed ut 〈◊〉 stem temporis & argumentum Historicum. to deliver, apply, and interpret the doctrine expressly delivered, or intended by the holy Ghost, in the Scripture. Thirdly, we receive no Tradition as divine or apostolical, but such as hath the plain, manifest, and uniform testimony and approbation of the Primative Church c Hosiand. c. Val. Analys. fid. pa. 126. Si ea Traditiones 〈◊〉 quae in Ecclesia 〈◊〉 fuerunt quaequè, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 admittimus. . But our Adversaries either equal d Concil. Trid. sess. 4. Sixt. Senens. Bibl. li. 2. pa. 123. , or prefer e Pigh. contr. Ratisb. lo. 3. Baron. 〈◊〉. tom. 1. anno 57 n. 11. Greg. Val. tom. 3. pa. 347. unwritten Tradition before the Scripture, and they make Tradition a diverse and larger part of the rule of Faith, containing many Articles which are neither expressly, nor inuoluedly revealed in the Scripture f Bannes' sup. Thom. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. Stapl. 〈◊〉. sup. joh. 16. Pigh. contr. Ratisb. lo. 3. d. Ecclesia. Sed magna pars, etc. Andrad. Def. Trid. fid. li. 2. Ex Traditionibus nos multa accepisse agnoscimus quae sacris literis non continentur. Greg. Val. Analys. fid. li. 5. ca 2. & 3. , and they make the present Roman Church an infallible witness of such Tradition, affirming, that we are bound to believe every Article, which the said Church g Coster. Enchir. pa. 47. Petr. Soto. Infallibilis est regula, & certa quaecunquè credit tenet & seruat Romana Ecclesia, & in Scriptures non habentur, illa ab Apostolis 〈◊〉 tradita. delivereth as a Tradition, with the same assurance of Faith, wherewith we believe any written testimony of S. Paul, or the holy Evangelists. And many of them teach, That it is not necessary to derive Tradition by a perpetual descent, and current through all ages; but the voice of the present Church is sufficient to make any Article ctedible and authentical to us h Gretsar. Def. Bellarm. d. verb. Dei, li. 4. c. 9 1713. & 1715. . Lastly, many particularopinions of ancient Fathers (which they delivered coniecturally or probably only, and concerning which they have not affirmed, that they were divine or apostolical Traditions) are ranked by latter Pontificians in the number of divine 〈◊〉, and made parts of the undoubted word of God. And thus the present Roman doctrine, concerning Traditions unwritten, is a Seminary of Error, and by pretext hereof, Pontificians obtrude upon the Church many profane, fabulous, and superstitious 〈◊〉, fancies, and novelties repugnant to holy Scripture, and the ancient Catholic Faith. Let therefore impartial Readers consider, whether this Romish doctrine, debasing the sacred Scripture, and advancing humane Traditions a Petrus Soto. Instruct. Sacerdot. part. 1. lect. 6. pag. 17. Quae ad 〈◊〉 pertinent, magis ex Traditione & Spirit' Sancti Illustratione, quam ex Scriptura petenda 〈◊〉. Hosius. d. Express. verb. Dei, pa. 50. Non oportet Legis aut Scripturae esse peritum, sed à Deo doctum, vanus est labour, qui Scripturae impenditur. Scriptura enim 〈◊〉 est, & egenum quoddam elementum. Non convenit Christiano, 〈◊〉 creaturae addictum esse, etc. Pigh. Hieratch. Eccles. Et nisi hac admissa aut etiam Scripturis praemissa, ne 〈◊〉 quidem authoritatem satis sibi constate, ut quae universa indè dependeat. Qua non adhibita velut plumbeam quandam regulam, etc. tendeth not to the corrupting of Christian Faith, and consequently, whether the same be not rather a fundamental Error, than an Orthodoxal Verity? And on the contrary, whether the doctrine of the Protestants, maintaining the supreme authority of the sacred Scripture (which is God's undoubted word) and withal yielding to genuine Tradition, the credit and honour which the ancient Church gave thereunto, is not fundamental Verity, and a sovereign means to preserve right Faith. Jesuit. Secondly, their questioning the infallibe authority of lawful general Counsels, thereby casting down the foundation of Unity in God's Church. ANSWER. They which will not permit general Counsels to assemble, or to proceed lawfully, and which oppose the decrees of ancient Counsels, are the Romists and not the Protestants. First, The modern Popes usurp the whole right and authoritieof calling and convocating Counsels b Bulla Indict. Concil. 〈◊〉. a julio 3. Nos ad quos summos pro tempore Pontifices spectat generalia concilia indicere & dirigere Bellarm. d. Concil. li. 1. ca 12. , contrary to the ancient custom and practice of the Church c Cusan. Concord. Cath. lib. 2. ca 2. Licet universalia Concilia saepè legamus convocata per Imperatores, imò omnia octo, ut. ex gestis haberi potest, etc. Euseb. d. vit. Const. lib. 1. ca 37. & li. 2. ca 6. & lib. 4. ca 47. Socrat. Hist. Eccles. lib. 2. ca 16. Sosomen. Hist. Eccles. lib. 3. ca 10. Theod. Hist. lib. 2. ca 8. Euagr. Hist. Eccles. lib. 1. ca 3. Niceph. 〈◊〉. Eccles. lib. 14. ca 34. Athanas. Apolog. 2. 〈◊〉. c. Ruffin. lib. 2. Doce qui eo anno Consules fuerunt? Quis Imperator iusserit hanc Synodum convocare? Leo Epist. 43. ca 2. See Nilus, d. Primate. Papae, pa. 277. Council Chalced. in principio. Haec sancta Synodus, quae secundum gratiam Dei, decreto pijssimorum Imperatorum congregata est, in Chalcedonensi civitate. jacobatius. d. Concil. lib. 3. ar. 1. n. 19 Leo primus Pontifex, cum lachrimis Imperatori scripsit & supplicavit, ut congregaret concilium. . Secondly, They receive and admit no Assessors and judges in Counsels d Didac. Nugnus in 3. part. Tho. Addit. q. 20. artic. 3. Summus Pontifex mittit ad. Concilium generale, Cardinals quos ipse vult, & vocat Episcopos quos ipse vult, & multoties non congregat Episcopos de universo Orb, sed de aliquibus 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Consist. part. 3. q. 1. pag. 114. Qui vulgò creaturae Papae vocari solent. but only their fast friends, to wit, men aforehand obliged by solemn oath e 〈◊〉. Ego 〈◊〉 Episcopus, etc. 〈◊〉 ero beato 〈◊〉 sanctaequè Rom. Apostol. Ecclesiae & Domino nostro Iulio Papae etc. 〈◊〉 Romanum & Regalia S. 〈◊〉 adiutor eis ero ad retinendum & defendendum, etc. , to proceed according to the will and purpose of the Pope. Thirdly, The Pope alone is appointed the authentical judge of all causes and matters, which are concluded in Counsels: he approveth or refuseth whatsoever himself pleaseth, and all other judges and Assessors, are only his shadows and creatures a Bosius. d. Sign. 〈◊〉 5. ca 9 Potest Pontifex Rom. qua parte voluer it habere Con cilia rata, eademquè ubi voluerit reprobare, & quod ipse 〈◊〉 cit ab universo Concilio sancitur. Paleot. d. Consistor. part. 1. q. 3. ar. 4. & 8. Speaking of the College of 〈◊〉, which may also be applied to Counsels. Sicut manus in 〈◊〉 distributio, eius nec robur nec vires imminuir, etc. Cum sempèr pendet ab eius imperio, illos huc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deflectere: sic Papa auditis Concilijs, 〈◊〉 ea tanquam digitos in manu 〈◊〉, aut si placeat, operi 〈◊〉 admovere. Quemadmodum qui in nemoribus ligna caedunt, solam materiam administrant architecto, ad fabricam struendam, ille 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ab 〈◊〉 secernit, & quod aptius censuerit ad aedificium transfert: sic in rebus difficilibus post explanata ab 〈◊〉 Concilia, decernit. Papa quid sit agendum: & ideò illius unius iudicio tanquàm supremae regulae, non 〈◊〉 standum esse dicimus, alioquin status Monarchicus 〈◊〉. Bannes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. 〈◊〉. 70. Omnis qui contradixerit legatis praesentibus suspectus erit de Haeresi. Bellarm. d. Concil. 1. b. 2. c. 11. Idem est sive Pontifex expresse Concilium reprobet, sive Concilium agat contra Pontisicis sententiam. Ibid. c. 13. Quandò legatus ab eo missus 〈◊〉 Concilio, sed agit contra voluntatem Pontificis, 〈◊〉 non est verè eius Legatus, licet protali se gerat. Greg. Val. tom. 3. disp. 1. q. 1. punct. 7. d. Concil. Si Legati sequuntur instructionem & quasi conceptam 〈◊〉 Pontifics sententiam, etc. pa. 365. Binius. tom. 1. not. sup. Concil. Constantinop. pa. 515. Tantùm toboris & firmitatis quaelibet Synodus consequi solet, quantùm authoritatis illi Apostolica sedes impertit. Bernard. 〈◊〉. d. sacr. Ador. cult. disp. 3. fect. 6. pa. 263. Certum est, quod quandò summus Pontifex, per seipsum non adest in Concilio, sed per Legatos, huiusmodi Legati prius 〈◊〉 à summo Pontifice, de hijs quae in 〈◊〉 Concilio agenda 〈◊〉. Bellarm. d. Imag. c. 14. Certum est Synodum cui repugnat Rom. Pontifex, nullius 〈◊〉 authoritatis. Idem. d. 〈◊〉. li. 4. c. 1. Illud iudicium tum demum esse firmum, cum accesserit summi Pontificis confirmatio: proinde 〈◊〉 summi Pontificis esse. Ib. c. 2 Ipsa infallibilitas non est in Concilio Episcopotum, sed in solo Pontifice. Azor. Instit. Mor. tom. 2. lib. 5 ca 12. & ca 14. Anton. Perez. Pentateuch. fid. vol. 2. du. 7. ca 4. pa. 41. col. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 legitimum, id est legitime congregatum, & in legitima congregatione 〈◊〉, adhuc potest omnino errare, si ab instructione 〈◊〉 Pontificis, vel latum unguem discedat. Ib. Saepe Romani 〈◊〉 mittunt per Legatos suos 〈◊〉 eorum, quae Concilia decernere & stabilire tenentur, etc. Quod si 〈◊〉 auderet definire 〈◊〉, contrà instructionis tenorem, tunc temporis omnino erraret. Hinc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quoties contrà instructionem Pontificis, aliquid definite, siuè Legati Pontif. ascentiant, ut in 〈◊〉 Constantiensi, siuè dissentiant, ut in Concilio Ephesino secundo. Ib. conclus. 3. Illa Concilia generalia, quoram decretis ascentiunt Legati-summi Pontif. 〈◊〉 instructionem eius, possunt esse falsitati 〈◊〉, etc. In Concilio Basileensi, de facto erratum est, Legatis Pontificis errorem approbantibus, & caeterorum 〈◊〉 subscribentibus. . Fourthly, Whereas in words and terms they seem to advance and magnify the ancient Oecumeniall Counsels, affirming that they honour them as the holy Evangelists, yet when they make against them, they regard them no more b 〈◊〉. d. Rom. 〈◊〉. lib. 2. cap. 17. Resp. decretum illud magni quidem esse Concilij, sed non 〈◊〉 factum, proindè 〈◊〉 esse roboris vel 〈◊〉. He 〈◊〉 of the Council of Chalcedon. (as one of their own part affirmeth c 〈◊〉. Viues. Schel. in Aug. d. Civit. Dei, li. 20. c. 26. 〈◊〉 illa demum 〈◊〉 videntur Edicta & Concilia, quae in 〈◊〉 suam 〈◊〉, reliqua non pluris in textrina vel 〈◊〉. ) than a covent of women prattling and chatting in a common bath, stove, or Weaver's shop. And this is apparent by their 〈◊〉 or falsifying the Counsels of Nice d Concil. Nicen. 1. Cod. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , Constantinople e 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 2. An. Dom. 381. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and Chalcedon f Synod. 〈◊〉. Action. 16. & ca 28. , when the same equal the Patriarch of Constantinople, or other patriarchal Seas, to the Roman, or forbid the imposition of single life upon the Clergy g Hist. Tripart. li 2. ca 14. Socrat. Hist. Eccles. li. 1. ca 8. Sosom. Hist. li. 2. c. 22. Niceph. Hist. li. 8. ca 19 Gratian. Dist. 31. c. Nicen. Synod. ; as also by the Counsels of Basill, and Constance, decreeing, that the Pope's sentence is fallible. Cardinal Cusanus treating of general Counsels, delivereth these ten Positions following: First, That a perfect or complete general Council, consisteth of all the Patriarches a Cusan. Concord. Cath. l. 2. c. 3. Quod ex quinque Patriarchalibus sedibus plenum universale Concilium Colligitur, gesta Octavi Concilij clare docent, etc. Et cap. 5. Plenarium Concilium est totius universae Ecclesiae. and prime Governors of the Church. Secondly, That a Council which is celebrated by the Roman Pontife, and those which are subject to him only, or excluding others, is a particular Council b Ibid. ca 7. Non equitur ubi praesidet Papa in Concilio vel eius legatus, ibi esse universale Concilium universalis Ecclesiae. . Thirdly, A general Council may be celebrated, although the Pope refuse to join and concur, by his presence and consent c Id. ca 2. Si expectatus non mitteret, vel non veniret vel nollet Concilium congregatum, suae necessitati & Ecclesiae saluti providere debet. Hoc probat benè textus Octavi universalis Concilij, etc. Quoniam dudum expectati fuerunt vicarij Seniorum Romae, & amplius expectare non sit iustum, incongruum omnino putamus, despicere fluctuantem Christi & saluatoris nostri Ecclesiam, per dilationem dispositionum quae illi debetur. Hinc ergo velut ex necessitate denunciamus. etc. Ac idem legitur in gestis secundae Ephesinae Synodi. . Fourthly, All which meet in Counsels, aught to have free audience and liberty, orderly to debate and determine matters in question d Ibid. c. 3. Libertas talis in eo esse debet, ut quisque liberam loquendi habeat facultatem. Id. Ecce nunc essentialia ad universale Concilium, ubi universalia tractare debent, quod non secretè sed publicè, omnibus liberima detur audientia. Id. c. 5. Secunda Ephesina Synodus ritè congregata fuit, etc. Tamen defecit libertas, etc. . Fiftly, Whatsoever must oblige as divine, upon the determination of Counsels, aught to be confirmed by the authority of holy Scripture e Idem. cap. 10. Oportet quod omnia talia, quae ligare debent, contineantur in authoritatibus sacrarum Scripturarum. Id. ca 6. Secundum testimonia Scripturarum decrevit Synodus. . Sixthly, No Counsels are legitimate, wherein private respects are maintained, under pretext of Faith and Religion f Id. c. 3. Oportet quod privatae causae religionis obtentu non exerceantur. unde Leo Papa ad Theodosium Imperat. de errore Synodi Eph. dicit Dum privatae causae religionis exercentur obtentu, commissum est impietate paucorum, quod universam Ecclesiam vulneraret. . Seventhly, The Roman Bishop hath not that power which many flatterers heap upon him, to wit, that he alone is to determine, and others only to consult or advise g Id. c. 12. Et videmus quantum Romanus Pontifex, ultra sacras antiquas obseruationes, ex usu & consuetudine subiectionalis obedientiae hodie acquisivit, etc. In Concilijs Rom. Pontificem in condendis statutis generalibus, eam non habere potestatem, quam quidem adulatores eidem contribuunt: scilicet quod ipse tantum statuere habeat, aliis consulentibus. . Eightly, It is without all question, That a general Council properly taken; is both superior to the rest of the Patriarches, and also to the Roman Pope a Idem, cap. 17. An universale 〈◊〉 proprie captum, scilicet quod universam Catholicam Ecclesiam representat, sit supra Patriarchas & Rom. Pontificem, credo dubium esse non 〈◊〉. . Ninthly, Experience of things doth manifest, That a plenary universal Council may be deficient; and we read, that many Counsels lawfully assembled, have erred b Idem, cap. 3. Multa Concilia 〈◊〉 rite convocata errasse legimus. Idem, cap. 5. Notandum est experimento retum, universale Concilium plenarium posse deficere. Idem, cap. 14. . Tenthly, Whiles we defend, That the Pope is not universal Bishop c Idem, cap. 13. Dum hanc partem defendimus, quod Papa non est universalis Episcopus, sed super alios primus, & sacrotum Conciliorum, non in Papa, said in consensu omnium vigorem fundamus, tunc quia veritatem defendimus, & unicuique suum honorem reseruamus, recte Papam honoramus. 99 Dist. Ecclesiae. , but only the first Bishop over others, and whiles we ground the power of sacred Counsels upon the consent of the whole Assembly, and not upon the Pope, we maintain Truth, and give to every one his due honour. And then concluding the former Positions, the Cardinal saith d Idem, cap. 15. In Concilijs parum de illis omnibus invenire potui, quae praedictis positionibus meis ad plenum non concordarent. , I observe little or nothing in ancient Monuments, which agreeth not to these my Assertions. With this Cardinal, agree many other famous Papists; Occam, Panormitan e Panormit 1. Decretal. d. Elect. ca signif. , Almain f Almain. Quaest Vesp. , Cassander, Ferus, etc. and among the rest, Occam delivereth these Positions: First, That all general Counsels are inferior to the holy Scriptures g Occam, Dial. part. 3. tr. 1. lib. 3. cap. 13. Sanctum tamen Euangelium cum maiori reverentia & devotione suscipiendum est, quam Concilium generale quodcunque. , and that when S. Gregory saith, That he honoureth the four first general Counsels like as the four Evangelists, this must be understood, not of equality, but of similitude h Ibid. Hoc 〈◊〉 est, de general Concilio ritè, iustè, & Catholicè celebrato, etc. Ita tamen quod hoc vocabulum sicut, omnimodam similitudinem nequaquam importet, sicut cum dicit Christus Estote perfecti sicut pater vester, etc. , Matth. 5. 48. Secondly, Counsels are not called general, because they are congregated by the authority of the Roman Pope i Idem, par. 1. lib. 6. cap. 85. Non ideo solummodo, vocatur Concilium generale, quia authoritate summi 〈◊〉 convocatur. ; and that if Princes and Laymen please, they may be present, and have to deal with matters treated of in general Counsels k Ibid. Reges & Principes & nonnulli Laici, possunt si voluerint, ad generale Concilium convenire, & eiusdem Concilij tractatibus interest. . Thirdly, Ecclesiastical Dignity, as it maketh not men holy, so it conferreth not infallibility of judgement a Idem, par. 1. lib. 5. cap. 7. Dignitas Ecclesiastica non attribuit sanctitatem: & per consequens, non confert impossibilitatem errandi contra fidem. . Fourthly, A general Council, or that Congregation which is commonly reputed a general Council by the World, may err in matters of Faith b Idem, par. 1. lib. 5. cap. 25. Concilium generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis universalis, tamen non est Ecclesia universalis. Igitur temerarium est dicere, quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Ibid. cap. 28. & p. 3. tr. 1. lib. 3. cap. 9 & cap. 10. Concilium generale seu quod Concilium generale a maiori parte Christianorum putatur, potest errare contra fidem. . joh. Ferus commenting upon the Acts, chap. 15. compareth the Apostles Council with modern, and saith c Ferus, sup. Act. 15. pag. 180. In rebus fidei, & quae conscientiam tangunt, non satis est dicere, volumus, mandam ': vides igitur quomodo 〈◊〉 Apostoli. Simpliciter conveniunt, nihil nisi Deum quaerunt, & aliorum salutem expetunt, denique omnia prudenter perpendunt. Quid igitur mirum, si in hoc Concilio, fuerit Spiritus Sanctus, iuxta promissum Domini: ubi duo vel tres congregati fuerint, etc. Nos aliter convenimus, nempe cum magna pompa, nosque ipsos querimus, atque nobis pollicemur, nihil nobis non licere de plenitudine potestatis. Et quomodo Spiritus Sanctus eiusmodi conventus probare possit? : In matters of Faith, and things which concern the Conscience, it is not sufficient to say, We will and command; but you must consider, in what manner the Apostles deal in their Assembly: They come together in simplicity of heart, seeking only God's glory, and the salvation of others; no marvel therefore, if the Spirit of God was in this Council. But our meeting is in another manner, namely, with great pomp, and seeking ourselves, and promising to ourselves licence (upon fullness of Power) to do any thing. And (this being so) how is it possible for the Spirit of God to approve such Assemblies? Seeing therefore, by the confession of these learned Papists, latter Counsels, celebrated by the mere and absolute authority of the Pope, are neither universal d Anton. Perer. Pentateuch. Fid. Vol. 2. dub. 4. cap. 2. Ad Concilia generalia Occidentis, v. gr. Lateranense, sub Innocentio 3. ad Lugdunense sub Gregorio 11. add Viennense sub Clement 5. denique ad Tridentinum, raros, aut nullos ex toto Oriente Episcopos, convenisse videmus. , nor of infallible judgement; and (as experience testifieth) Papal Counsels are neither free, nor proceed in debating and deciding matters controverted, according to the authority of the holy Scripture e sylvest Prior. lib. d. Mod. Inquir. pag. 9 Cur ergo sancti Patres suo tempore Haercticos per Scripturas expugnarunt? Resp. Hic est alia ratio temporis. Nam tunc Ecclesia nondum fuit firmata, nec fides satis roborata: ideo necesse fuit per Scripturas cum eye 〈◊〉: nunc autem oportet de firma fide eos examinare. ; and that of later years, and especially since Pope Gregory the seventh, they have wholly intended their own privacy f 〈◊〉 Silvius, d. gest. Basil. Concil. lib. 1. pag. 14. Dum unius hominis (Papae) libidinem sustinere conantur, dumpque privatum bonum communi antevertunt, incredibile est quantas errorum nebulas excitent. : it is a malicious Censure which this Lojolist casteth upon the Protestants, in charging them with fundamental Heresy, for opposing the infallible authority of such Counsels, and consequently, with dejecting the foundation of Unity in God's Church. Protestants have always desired a lawful general Council, for the concluding of differences in Religion a Chemnit. Exam. p. 1. d. Trad. pag. 84. Clamitanta multis iam annis, totius orbis 〈◊〉 querelae, regnum Pontificium multas corruptelas, abusus & superstitiones invexisse in Ecclesiam: petunt in legitimo Concilio gravissimas has Controversias exverbo Dei dijudicari, & definiri. Sed ecce Pontificij, etc. Phil. Melancth. Resp. ad Artic. Bavar. Inquisit. q. 7. Hac generali Interrogatione odia contra nos accendere student, quod videamur omnes Synodos, & omnia acta in Synodis reprehendere. Nos vero palam fatemur, oportere in Ecclesia iudicia esse, & affirmamus multas pias Synodos fuisse, & profuisse Ecclesiae, & maxim optamus nunc in his dissidijs recte constitui iudicium Ecclesiae. , and they are most ready and resolute to submit themselves to the determination thereof b D. Andr. Episcop. Winton. c. Apolog. Bellarm. cap. 14. pag. 333. Date nobis Concilia legitime congregata, & procedentia, etc. in eorum sententiam, imus statim. ; and they yield the same honour and authority to all such Counsels, which the ancient Church in the days of Constantine the Great, Theodosius, and Martianus, and which S. Augustine did c August. c. Donat. post. collat. cap. 15. Quasi 〈◊〉 Concilia, Scriptures Canonicis, aliquando fuerint comparata. 739. ; yea, which the more impartial Romans themselves, in precedent Ages, have done. But the present Papalls will not endure a lawful and impartial Council; and unless themselves may be both Accusers, and judges d Verger. d. Concil. Trid. Papa vult esse Dominus totius Concilij, & non modo illud indicere quando velit, & eo convocare quales iudices ipsi videatur, & eijcere quos ipse velit, sed dirigere illic omnia, & cogere ut omnes dieant quicquid ipse imperaverit. Protest. Reg. Gal. facta Concil. Trid. Quip quibus nec liber, nec tutus eo pateret accessus, neve idipsum Concilium, a quo excluderetur invitissimus, generale totius Ecclesiae Catholicae, aut haberetur, aut appellaretur, quin potius privatum existimaretur Concilium. , and proceed as their forefathers, the Pharisees, did against the Apostles, determining all things by the Model of their own Cabala, they will admit no trial by Counsels e Paraleip. Ab. Vsperg. in Concil. Basil. Eugenium Papam tantum abesse, ut geveralibus Concilijs debeat obedire, ut tunc se maxime dicat 〈◊〉, cum Concilij Decreta contemn at. AEneas Sylu. d. Gest. Basil. Concil. lib. 1. pag. 14. , nor any other means of Pacification, for restoring the common Unity of the Christian Church. Jesuit. THirdly, their denying of the Primacy of S. Peter, and Tu es Petrus, & super hanc Petram, etc. his Successor; the Foundation which Christ laid of his Church, necessary for the perpetual government thereof. Matth. 16. 18. ANSWER. Protestant's deny not the Primacy of S. Peter, but they yield unto him, both as he was an Apostle, Primacy of Spiritual Authority, and jurisdiction over the Universal Church, Matth. 28.20. joh. 20.21. And also respectively to the other Apostles (which were his Compeers and Equals a 〈◊〉. d. Vnit. Eccles. Hoc erant 〈◊〉 & caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus, pari 〈◊〉 praediti & honoris & potestatis. Chrysost. sup. Galath. cap. 2. lamque se caeteris honore, parem ostendit (Paulus) 〈◊〉 se reliquis illis, sed impsi summo comparat, declarans quod horum 〈◊〉 parem sortitus sit dignitatem. Barlaam. lib. d. Pap. princip. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , in regard of all Apostolical Authority) Primacy of Calling, Order, Grace, Gifts a Hilar. sup. Matth. Canon. 14. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. lib. 2. cap. 14. August. sup. joh. tr. 124. Read D. Reinolds Confer. Hart. cap. 5. diuis. 3. pa. 178. 〈◊〉. Serm. 66. B. Petrus & Paulus eminent inter universos Apostolos & peculiari quadam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, uttum inter ipsos quis cui 〈◊〉 incertum est. , etc. And the place of Saint Matthew, chap. 16.18. proveth not Saint Peter to have been a visible Monarch over the whole Church. First, Our Saviour affirmeth not plainly and literally, that he will build his Church upon him, but upon the Rock: which he confessed b August. sup. joh. tr. 124. Super hanc ergo inquit Petram quam confessus es, aedificabo Ecclesiam meam, Petra enim erat Christus. Idem, d. Verb. Dom. Serm. 13. Tu es ergo, inquit, Petrus, & super hanc Petram, quam confessus es, Super hanc Petram, quam cognovisti, dicens, Tu es Christus, filius Dei vivi, aedificabo, Ecclesiam meam. Super me aedificabo te, non me super te. Ambros. sup. Eph. 2. ver. 20. Super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam, hoc est in hac Catholicae fidei confessione statuo fideles ad vitam. Hilar. d. Trinit. lib. 6. Super hanc igitur confessionis Petram, Ecclesiae aedificatio est. Chrysost. sup. Matth. Hom. 55. Eusebius Emissen. Gregor. Beda, 〈◊〉, Glossa Gratiani, Lyra, Ferus, 〈◊〉, Stella, & complures alij. , verse 16, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; Upon this Rock, and not upon this Peter: Non dictum est illi, Tu es Petra, sed, Tu es Petrus, Petra autem erat Christus; It was not said unto him, Thou art the Rock, but, Thou art Peter, for the Rock was Christ. August. Retract. Lib. 1. cap. 21. Secondly, If he had affirmed expressly, That he would build his Church upon him; yet he saith not exclusively, that he would build the same only upon him, but in other places he conjoineth the rest of the Apostles c Orig. in Matth. tr. 1. Si autem super unum illum Petrum, arbitraris universam Ecclesiam aedificari a Deo, quid dices de jacobo, vel johanne, etc. Ambros. sup. Psal. 38. Quod Petro dicitur, Apostolis 〈◊〉 Hieron. c. jovinian. lib. 1. At 〈◊〉 super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia, licet id ipsum in alio loco super omnes Apostolos fiat. Idem, sup. Galath. cap. 2. Licet Petrum & johannem secum Apostolos habuerit, etc. Et super ipsos Ecclesiae sit 〈◊〉 fundamentum. Cyril. sup. Esa. lib. 4. Orat. 2. Est omnium fundamentum & basis inconcussa Christus, etc. Fundamenta etiam proxima & viciniora nobis intelligi possunt, Apostoli & Euangelistae, oculati testes & ministri Sermonis facti, in confirmationem fidei, etc. Ab ipso enim dictum est Divino Petro, etc. Tu es Petrus, & super hanc Petram, etc. Petram opinor vocans, immotam fidem Discipuli, Dictum est item voce psallentis: Fundamenta eius in Montibus sanctis. Optime sanctis Montibus comparandi sunt sancti Apostoli & Euangelistae, quorum cognitio firmata est instar fundamenti posteris, non sinens eos, qui per ipsos irretiti sunt in reprobam fidem decidere. Cusan. Concord. Cath. lib. 2. cap. 13. Nihil dictum est ad Petrum, quod etiam aliis dictum non sit. Sixt. Senens. Biblioth. lib. 6. an. 68 Credimus & certa fide fatemur, Christum esse primum ac 〈◊〉 totius Ecclesiastici aedificij fundamentum; sed super hoc etiam fundamentum, asserimus, alias Petras superimpositas, nempe Petrum, & caeteros Apostolos, quos Iohannes in Apocalypsi nominat duodecim fundamenta Coelestis Jerusalem. Victoria. Relect. 2. d. Pot. Eccles. Con. 4. Apostoli omnes habuerunt aequalem potestatem cum Petro & Paulus ad Gal. 1. & 2. Satis defendit, se parem potestatem cum Petro habere. Haec est aperte sententia Cypriani in Epistola de unitate Ecclesiae ad 〈◊〉: & habetur 24. quaest. 1. Ego dico tibi, hoc utique erant caeteri 〈◊〉, quod Petrus, pari consortio praediti & honoris & potestatis. Nec audienda est Glossa dicens, hoc debere intelligi in ordine & dignitate Consecrationis, non in potestatis plenitudine. with him, john. 20. 23. Eph. 2.20. Apoc. 21.14. Matth. 28.19. Thirdly, To be a Ministerial Rock, and foundation of the Church, is not to be the sole Monarch of the Church: because St. Peter might be such, in regard of his Preaching and Doctrine, as the other Apostles were, and not in respect of Monarchical dominion. Hereupon Turrecremate in his Sum. d. Eccles. lib. 2. cap. 11. saith, Non argumentati sumus Petrum primatum habuisse quia dictus fuit fundamentum aut Petra Ecclesiae, sed quia singulariter, etc. We argue not, Saint Peter had the Primacy, because he was called the Foundation, or Rock of the Church, but because he was in a singular manner so called. But if the name of Rock, argueth not St. Peter's supremacy, the singular applying thereof in one Text of Scripture, will not do it; both because the speaking to him in particular, is only a circumstance, and relation of a matter, granted by the words of Rock and Keys, but no addition of any other essential gift: and also because the same Title, in terms equivalent, is elsewhere made common to other Apostles a Aug. d. Agon. Christ. ca 30. Non sine causa inter omnes Apostolos huius Ecclesiae Catholicae personam sustiner Petrus, huic enim Ecclesiae claves 〈◊〉 caelorum datae sunt, cum Petro datae sunt, & cum ei dicitur ad omnes dicitur, Amas me, pasce oves meas. Beda. Hom. in Euang. Quem me dicunt? Potestas ligandi & soluendi, quamuis soli Petro à Domino data 〈◊〉, tamen absque ulla dubitatione noscendum; quod & caeteris Apostolis data est. AEnaeas Silvius. d. gest. Basil. Concil. l. 1. p. 28. Maximus omnium Theol. Aug. super literam Math. Euang. Tibi dabo claves, etc. Ait, per verba illa iudiciariam potestatem datam esse, non solum Petro, sed aliis etiam Apostolis & toti Ecclesiae, in Episcopis & Presbiteris. . The jesuit addeth, That we deny the primacy of Peter's Successor: and that this Successor is the foundation of the Church, laid by Christ, and necessary for the perpetual government of the same. I answer, First, St. Peter, in one respect, to wit, in regard of his Apostolical function, had no successor: for the Office of Apostles was extraordinary, appointed by Christ, for the first planting of Faith; and consequently, it ceased with the Apostles a Victor. Relect. 2. Con. 4. Prop. 12. . Immediate calling, Prophetical inspiration, the gifts of Miracles and Languages, authority over the whole Church, and all the ordinary Pastors thereof, were proper to the holy Apostles; and if none succeed them in these gifts and prerogatives, than it is manifest, that in respect of their Apostleship b Bellar. d. Rom. Pontif. l. 4. c. 25. Apostoli non suerunt ordinarij sed extraordinarij & quasi 〈◊〉 pastors, quibus non succeditur. Victoria Relect. 2. d. pot. Eccles. Con. 4. Propos. 12. Nemo 〈◊〉 aliis Apostolis cum aequali potestate & authoritate iurisdictionis hoc est ut in toto orbe haberet plenitudineni potestatis, sicut 〈◊〉 Apostolorum habuisset. they have no Successors. Secondly, In respect of ordinary Ministry, and in regard of the power and order of jurisdiction, St. Peter hath successors, in the same manner, as the rest of the Apostles: to wit, all Bishops and Pastors a Hieron. Epist. ad. Euagr. to. 3. pa. 150. Caeterum omnes 〈◊〉 successores sunt. Id. ad. Heliodor. Epist. 1. Absit ut de his quicquam sinistrum loquar qui Apostolico gradui succedentes, etc. Ambros. Dignit. Sacerd. ca 1. Claves regni Caelorum quas in Beato Petro Apostolo 〈◊〉 suscepimus Sacerdotes. Ibid. cap. 2. Quas oves & quem Gregem, non solum tune Beatus 〈◊〉 Petrus, sed & nobiscum eas suscepit, & cumillo cas nos suscepimus omnes. , teaching (either where he planted Churches, or in any other part of the world) the same Faith and Religion, which himself and his fellow Apostles did b Iren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Eyes qui in Ecclesia sunt Presbyteris obaudire oporter, his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis, qui cum Episcopatus successione, Charisma veritatis certum, secundum placitum Patris acceperunt. Ibid. cap. 44. Qui Apostolorum Doctrinam custodiunt. Greg. Nazian Orat. 21. d. laud. Basil. Qui eandem Fidei doctrinam 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 quoque throni particeps est, etc. . Thirdly, That St. Peter hath a special Successor, differing in kind, from the Successors of the rest of the Apostles, and which is to be for ever, a visible Head and Monarch over the universal Church, from whom all Ecclesiastical power is derived, and to whose sentence, in things divine, every Chrstian must submit himself; and that the Roman Bishop is the man, is delivered as a prime Article of Christian Faith, by Papals a Bellarm. d. Pontif. Rom. praef. Extravag. come. l. 1. tit. 9 d. Maior. & obed. ca unam sanctam. Subesse Rom. Pontifici omni humanae creaturae, declaramus, dicimus, definimus, & pronunciam' omnino esse de necessitate salutis. Paul. Cararia. sum. mor. & Canon. q. 2. ar. 4. p. 4. n. 26. Non solum omnis fidelis populus, verum etiam infidelis, & omnis rationalis creatura, Papae imperio subiacet. : but it is neither confirmed by the holy Scripture b Canus loc. l. 6. c. 8. Romanum Pontif. Petrosucoedere, non est perse quidem in Sacris literis Revelatum. Dried. d. Ecclesia Dogm. l. 4. c. 3. , nor by any divine Revelation, neither is the same delivered in the holy Apostles Creed, or by any ancient general Council, or by the unanimous consent of the Primative Fathers. And sundry Romists themselves have made question of it c Soto 4. Sent. Dist. 24. q. 2. ar. 5. Nulli particulari Ecclesiae addixit, neque aliunde institutio Christi circa hoc constat, etc. Cusan. Concord. Cath. l. 2. c. 34. pa. 599. Non 〈◊〉 probari Rom. Pontif. perpetuum Principem 〈◊〉 esse. Succession in loco non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉. AEneus. Sylu. d. gest. Basil. Concil. l. 1. joannes 〈◊〉 The 〈◊〉 peritissimus, glossam illam singularem, quae Rom. Ecclesiam orbi, praeponeret, dixitse omnino contemnere, beneque singularem esse, quae tam fatua diceret: indignumque fore ut illam quispiam 〈◊〉, etc. , and later Pontificians, do with so many subtle sleights and inventions propugne it, that all intelligent and impartial men may plainly discern, That this Doctrine of Papal Supremacy is builded upon the sand. For if the Roman Bishop had been appointed and established the perpetual Successor of Saint Peter, in manner before mentioned: either our Saviour himself would immediately, expreslly, and manifestly have revealed the same to his Church; or the holy Apostles would have taken notice thereof, and declared the same to others. Also Saint Peter must have carried himself as a Monarch among the other Apostles, and exercised the actions of Sovereignty in the visible Church. But we find in the holy Scripture, no supereminent jurisdiction, or Monarchical actions exercised by him a Chrys in Act. Apost. Hom. 3. Petrus egit omnia ex communi Discipulorum 〈◊〉, nihil ex 〈◊〉 nihil cum 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , no vassalage and subjection yielded him by the rest of the Apostles. And if he must have had a Successor in his Monarchy, the Apostles surviving him, b Saint 〈◊〉 lived 30. years after Saint Peter. Baron. annual. to. 1. An. 69. n. 1. & to. 2. Anno. 101. n. 2. 〈◊〉. Haer. 66. Praeterijt generatio Apostolorum, à Petro inquam usque ad 〈◊〉, & joannem, qui etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in mundo, usque ad 〈◊〉 tempora. should rather have been his Successors, than the ordinary Pastors of one Diocese. The Spirit of God also, together with so eminent authority, would have conferred upon 〈◊〉 Successors, extraordinary graces, of Learning, Wisdom, Holiness, etc. necessary for so high a calling. Also it is not probable, that Eusebius, and other ancient Ecclesiastical Historians would altogether have been silent of this Monarchical authority of the Roman Bishop, neither would any Orthodox Father or general Council have confined the Roman Pontife to equal bounds, with other patriarchs. But the ancientest Ecclesiastical Stories, are absolutely silent of such a swelling c Eusebius, in his 〈◊〉 History speaketh no word of it. Bulenger. c. 〈◊〉. Si quando apud Eusebium aliosque nonnullos de potestate sedis Apostolicae, Paulo obscurius agi videris; Sic 〈◊〉, ant be 〈◊〉 illud 〈◊〉 seculum, etc. pre-eminence as modern Papals claim; and the Fathers and Counsels contest the same. Pope Stephan was slighted by St. Cyprian, and the Bishops of Africa d 〈◊〉. apud. Cypr. Ep. 75. Atque ego in hac parte 〈◊〉 indignor ad hanc tam apertam & manifestam Stephani stultitiam, quod qui sic de Episcopatus sui loco gloriatur; & se successionem Petri tenere contendit. Tertul. d. pud. c. 21. De tua nunc sententia quero, undè hoc 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae usurps? Si quia dixerit Petro. Dominus super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam, tibi dedi claues Regni caelorum: velquaecunque alligaveris, etc. Qualis es evertens, atque commutans manifestam Domini intenrionem, personaliter hoc Petro conferentem: super te inquit aedificabo Ecclesiam meam. , when he enterposed in their affairs: and Pope Victor, by the Bishops of the East e Euseb. Hist. l. 5. c. 26. . The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon f Chalced. Concil. Act. 16. ca 28. Centum quinquaginta Dei amantiss. Episc. sanctiss. nova Roma throno, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequalia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, recte iudicantes, urbem quae & imperio & senatu honorata sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequalibus 〈◊〉 antiquiss. Regina Roma privilegijs fruatur etiam in rebus Ecclesiast. non secus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ac illa extolli & magni fieri, secundam post illam existentem. , equalleth the Patriarch of Constantinople to the Bishop of Rome. Gregory the Great g Greg. li. 4. Epist. 31. 32. 34. 38. 39 & li. 6. Epist. 24. Cusan. Concord. Cath. li. 2. c. 34. himself giveth the Papacy a deadly blow. And a great part of Christianity h Graeci. Asiani, etc. Nilus Archiepisc. 〈◊〉. l. c. d. Primate Papae. hath ever to this day opposed the Papal Primacy. Therefore it is most improbable that this doctrine should be fundamental verity, which having no 〈◊〉 or infallible grounds in divine Revelation, wanteth also the suffrages of all ancient Ecclesiastical Testimony. Jesuit. FOurthly, Their denying the foundation of true 〈◊〉, which is one true Catholic Christian faith, about revealed Mysteries; bringing in a fantastical faith, pretending, That every man is justified, by believing himself to be just, or one of Gods Elect. ANSWER. YOu ought first to have weighed our Doctrine, concerning the definition of Faith, and have compared the same with the Tenet of sundry of your own Doctors, before you had accused us of fundamental Error about the same. First, We maintain, that true Christian Catholic Faith is a 〈◊〉 and foundation (to wit on man's part) of justification a 〈◊〉. d. Spir. sanct. ca 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Damas. lib. 4. ca 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Cyril, in johan. li. 4. ca 9 janua & via in vitamsides est, & recursus quidam atquè reductio à corruption in immortalitatem. Aug. d. Temp. Serm. 181. Fides omnium bonorum est 〈◊〉, & humanae salutis initium. Sine hac nemo ad numerum 〈◊〉 Dei 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & sine 〈◊〉 in hoc seculo, nec iustificationis consequitur gratiam, nec in futuro possidebit vitam 〈◊〉. Fulgent. d. Incarn. & Grat. c. 20. Vita nostra à fide sumit initium, quia justus ex fide vivit. 〈◊〉. Sum. li. 3. 〈◊〉. 12. q. 2. Nos sequentes authoritatem Apostoli, & expositiones Sanctorum dicimus, quod fides formata praecedit omnem aliam 〈◊〉. Origen. sup. c. 4. ep. ad Rom. Aug. sup. Psal. 31. Et d. Verb. Apost. serm. 22. , Heb. 11.6. Rom. 1.17. jud. v. 20. Secondly, We deny that every man is justified, by only believing himself to be just; for he must be truly just, before he can, or aught to believe himself to be so b Meisner. Anthrop. Dec. 3. p. 329. Credimus peccata nobis esse remissa, sed haec fides formalitèr non iustificat, verum 〈◊〉 sequitur. . The promise of remission of sins is conditional c Musculus. loc. come. d. Remiss. pecc. sect. 6. Discernendum est intèr eam gratiam Dei, quae nullas habet adiectas conditiones, qualis est quod Solem suum producit supèr bonos & 〈◊〉, etc. Et came quae conditionaliter confertur, ad quem modum remissio peccatorum nobis contingit. , Esa. 1.16, 17, 18. Ezec. 18. 21. Pro. 28. 13. Math. 6.14, 15. john 15. 10. & 16, 27. Heb. 5.9. and the same becometh not absolute, until the condition be fulfilled, either actually, or in desire and preparation of mind: and the full assurance of remission of sins d Beza. Colloq. Mompelgard. pa. 471. Edit. Tubing. Consolatio quod adoptati sumus, petenda est, ex effectis spiritus sancti, quandò videlicet, sentimus in nobis eiusmodi motus spiritus sancti, qui testificantur nos vetè regeneratos. succeedeth Repentance, Faith, Obedience, and Mortification, 1. john 3.19, 20, 21, 22. Thirdly, We deny, that it is an action of Christian Faith, praevious or fundamental to justification, for a man to believe himself to be one of Gods elect; and admitting that one do not attain the certainty of Faith, but of Hope only, that he is elected e Aug. d. Cor. & Grat. c. 13. Quis ex multitudine fidelium quamdiu in hac mortalitate vivitur, in numero 〈◊〉 se esse praesumat quià id occultari opus est in hoc loco, ubi cavenda est elatio. : if there be no other impediment found in him, besides this, we make no question but such a person may be 〈◊〉. Wherein then lieth the fundamental error, concerning Faith and justification, wherewith we are reproached? If it be answered, That we err fundamentally, by making saving Faith, not only an intellectual, but also a fiducial assent a joh. Ferus. sup. Math. 8. v. 8. Vera fides fiducialitèr accedit, nòn dubitat Deum posse aut velle. & ca 9 v. 2. Fides haec nihil aliud fuit quam fiducia in misericordiam Christi. to the promise of the Gospel b The manner of this 〈◊〉 assent is: Being humbled with sense of mine own injustice, I believe that God will be merciful unto me, and pardon all my sins for the merits of Christ my Saviour: and I depend and rely only upon the merits of my Rodeemer, as upon the prime cause of my justification. ; the 〈◊〉 must remember, that many of his own Doctors affirm the same. Vega. d. justiff. lib. 14. Fides in Scriptures 〈◊〉 idem est quod fidueia, & 〈◊〉 idem quod consider, Faith in the Scriptures is many times the same that Trust; and, to believe, the same that to trust. jansenius c jansen. Conc. Euang. c. 32 p. 206. Nomine fidei in Euangelijs cum ei tribuitur salus aut consecutio omnium 〈◊〉 volumus compleri, utrumque nempè & assensum illum firmum in credendis de Deo ac Christo, & fiduciam ex illius omnipotente bonitare conceptam. Bernard. ser. 3. d. Annunciat. Nèc oleum misericordiae, nisi in vase fiduciae ponis. Concord. Euang. cap. 32. The name of Faith in the Gospel, when Salvation is ascribed unto it, containeth both firm assent, etc. and also confidence and trust conceived upon the apprehension of his 〈◊〉 and goodness. Adam. Sasboth. d 〈◊〉. Dicimus Fidem in disputatione Paudi de iustificatione accipi, ut complectatur non solum 〈◊〉, verùm etiàm 〈◊〉 in Christum propitiatorem. sup. Rom. 1. v. 17. The word Faith in S. Paul's desputation, containeth not only Assent, but also Trust in Christ the Mediator. Ferus e Ferus. sup. Math. c. 8. citatur à Sixto Senensi, Biblioth. lib. 6. 〈◊〉. 48. Non sempèr Fides est quod nos Fidem dicimus: Fidem nos dicimus 〈◊〉 quae divinis 〈◊〉 produntur, & quae Ecclesia credenda proponit. Hanc Scholastici informem, jacobus 〈◊〉 appellat fidem. Qualis 〈◊〉 est fides quae mortua est, formaquè sua caret, profectò non Fides sed vana opinio est, etc. secundùm Scripturam Fides non est 〈◊〉 fiducia misericordiae divinae promissae in Christo. sup. Math. Non semper Fides est, quod nos Fidem dicimus, etc. That which we call Faith, to wit, to assent to such things as are reported in divine Histories, and which the Church propoundeth to believe, is not always Faith, etc. for the Scripture speaketh of Faith in another manner; for according to it, Faith is a trust in the divine mercy, promised by Christ: with these also concur, Guilliaudus f Guilliaud. sup. joh. c. 3. v. 16. & sup. joh. 6.53. , Fredericus Nausea g Nausea. Cath. Chatech. li. 1. ca 12. Fides qua iustificamur est constans firmaquè animi per 〈◊〉 sanctum de Deimaiestate omnipotentia & bonitate, de què illius promissis indubitata persuasio: qua ut verbis 〈◊〉 certam Fidem habet, ita & de eius ergase bonitate, omnia sibi indubitato pollicetur. : and Suares h Suar. d. fid. disp. 1. sect. 1. n. 5. Vega. d. justif. lib. 9 c. 7. Multi Cath. ante editum 〈◊〉 Concil. Trid. aiebant manifestum nobis esse posse, ea opera a nobis fieri, quae necessaria sunt ad justificationem, & exillis, & testimonio conscientiae nostrae suffulto & adiuto testimonio Spiritus sancti, 〈◊〉 nos posse ad eam nostrae gratiae certitudinem cui non posset subesse falsum. saith, Multi Catholici putant saepe accipi in Scriptura Fidem pro fiducia, Many Catholics think, that Faith is oftentimes taken in holy Scripture, for Trust. The jesuit therefore wanted matter to fraught his papers, when he objected this Article against us, as a fundamental error. For if his own Doctors, and the holy Scripture itself i Stevart. sup. jacob. epist. c. 1. v. 6. pa. 29. Fide i 〈◊〉 licet in sacris literis pro certa persuasione usurpetur qua vera esse credimus, quae nobis à Deo, sive per S. Scripturam, five per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sunt, 〈◊〉 fuerint, siuè Historiae Heb. 11. 〈◊〉 praecepta 〈◊〉. 20 Act. 15. siuè promissiones, aut comminationes: Hoc tamen loco Fdes pro fiducia 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Fide sapientiam, Deiquè caetera dona 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 ex certa minimequè dubia persuasione & affectus fiducia, de divina 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 postulat. , take the word Faith in this notion, wherein have we merited so grievous a sentence? But I have produced many famous Doctors of his own part, which say expressly the same that we do, concerning the signification of the word Faith, when it is said to justify: and in steed of many other Texts, I refer him to the places of Scripture following, jam. 1.6. Math. 9 v. 2. 22. & cap. 14.31. Rom. 9.33. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Every one that believeth upon him, 1. Pet. 2.6. Now in regard of the matter of our Doctrine, the assurance of remission of sins, which we teach, is no other, than S. Bernard, john Bacon the Carmelite, Caietan, Catherinus, Ferus, and many other Pontificians have formerly taught. Caietan sup. Rom. 8. a Caietan. sup. Rom. 8. v. 15. Inspirat nobis confidenter appellate Deum patrem, & geminatur parris només add signif. firmitudiné & 〈◊〉 fiduciae. Testimonium à Spiritu sancto & nostro sufficiétissimun habem' ad hoc ut credamus quod sumus filij Dei. Nam ex hoc testimonio clarè videmus, credendum nobis esse quod sumus filij Dei. We have from the holy Ghost, and our own, a most sufficient testimony, to make us believe, that we are the sons of God: for by this testimony, we clearly discern, that we ought to believe, that we are the sons of God. And S. Bernard b Ber. serm. 1. d. Annunc. Si credis peccata tua non posse deleri, nisi ab eo cuisoli peccasti, & in quem peccatum non cadit benè facis, sed adde adhuc, ut credas quià per ipsum tibi peccata donantur. Hoc est testimonium quod perhibetin cord nostro Spiritus sanctus dicens, dimissa sunt tibi peccata tua. Sic 〈◊〉 arbitratur Apostolus gratis iustificari hominem per fidem. , If thou believest that he only can blot out thine offences, whom thou hast offended, it is well: but join this also to the former, that by him thy sins are forgiven thee. This is the testimony which the holy Spirit yieldeth in our hearts, saying, Thy sins are remitted unto thee: and in this sort doth the holy Apostle think, that a man is freely justified by Faith. Now from the precedent positions, I argue thus: First, That Doctrine concerning the nature and actions of Faith, which is taught in holy Scripture c 1. joh. 2. 5. & ca 3.14, 19, 24. etc. 5.13. Rom. 8. 15. 2. Cor. 1.22. & ca 5.5. Gal. 4. 6. Ephes. 1. 13, 14. , and which hath the consent of many ancient Fathers d Basil. Aschet. q. 269. Gre. Naz. or. 15. d. Plaga grandinis. Hilar. sup. Math. Can. 5. Cyril. sup. joh. li. 10. ca 3. Ambr. serm. 5. & sup. 2. Cor. 13. Chrys. sup. Rom. hom. 14. Aug. d. Symb. ad. Chat. c. 10. & tr. 5. sup. ep. joh. Constant. ap. Theod. hist. Eccles. lib. 1. ca 7. Gregor. Mor. li. 6. c. 8. Bernard. serm. 1. Annunciat. Cypr. li. d. Mortal. , and which was delivered by many learned Doctors of the Roman Church e joh. Bacon. sup. sent. refert. Lorin. in. 1. joh. 2, 3. pa. 63. Caietan. sup. Math. 6. & sup. Rom. 8. & sup. ep. joh. Catherine. li. d. Cert. Gratiae. Cassand. Consult. d. justif. Marinar. or. in Concil. Trid. Dom. 4. Quadrages. an. 1546. Ferus, sup. joh. ca 14. & ca 17. , is not fundamental Error. But such is the Doctrine of Protestants concerning justifying Faith, etc. Secondly, No Church erreth fundamentally, which teacheth such a kind of justifying Faith as Abraham, job, S. Paul, and other just persons (commended in holy Scriptures) had. But Abraham, job, S. Paul, and other just persons (commended in holy Scriptures) had such a justifying Faith, as was both an intellectual and fiducial assent to divine Verity and Promises. Ergo, The Church of the Protestants erreth not fundamentally, teaching such a justifying Faith, as is both an intellectual and fiducial assent to divine Promises and Verities. The assumption is proved by Rom. 4.18, 19, 20, 21. job 19 25. Rom. 8.38. Gal. 2.20. 2. Tim. 4.7. And whereas Pontificians bequarrel us in this argument, two ways: First, saying That these holy men had a particular promise made unto them: Secondly, That they knew by extraordinary Revelation, that they were endued with Faith, Hope, and Charity, which we know only by conjectural, or moral persuasion. I answer, First, we have particular promises contained in the general, and the general promises are particularly applied by the word of Absolution, and the Sacraments, and by the testimony of the holy Ghost, speaking in the conscience of true believers by effects of Grace a Chrys. sup. Ro. serm. 14. Quando vero Spiritus testatur quaenam relinquitur ambiguitas? Si enim homo quispiam vel Angelus, aut alia certe huiusmodi quae dam potestas aliquid promitteret, 〈◊〉 quispiam dubitaverit. Suprema verò illa essentia quae & hocipsum largitur, quod promittit, atque adeo orare 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 nobis perhibente, quis 〈◊〉 de dignitate hac deinceps dubitare poterit. Catharin. lib. d. cert. Gratiae Assert. 2. Aut possunt hoc testimonium sentire in seipsis, & excipere & agnoscere, aut frustra datur. Beda. in epist. 1. joh. ca 5, 10. Qui ita creditin filium Dei ut exerceat operando quod credit, habet testimonium Dei in se, illud vtiquè quià ipse quoque in filiorum Dei numero iure computetur. 〈◊〉. Jb. Qui in filium Dei credit, etc. in seipso habet testimonium, 〈◊〉 se 〈◊〉 in filium credat per jesum, qui adoptatus à Deo est. . Secondly, they which want miraculous Revelation, may understand, by ordinary Grace, that they have Faith, Hope, and Charity, because the holy Scripture commandeth all Christian believers to try and examine themselves concerning these Graces, 1. Cor. 11, 28. 2. Cor. 13.5. And godly persons which lived in former days, knew they had these virtues, Psal. 119. 97. Esa. 38.3. job 27.5, 6. & 29.14. Luc. 9.24. joh. 21.15. And the Apostle speaking of other people, as well as of himself, saith, We know the things which are freely given us of God b Caietan. sup. 1. ep. joh. v. 19 Diligendo opere, non solum cognoscim' nos esse ex veritate etc. sed suade bim' cordibus nostris, non fictè, non blandiendo, sed in conspectu Dei, undè apparet, quod non de notitia evidentiae, sed de notitia Fidei, dixit in hoc cognoscim', ex illa enim oritur ut suadeam ' intimis 〈◊〉 corandeo quod sum' ex 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. sup. Ro. 8. v. 38. Cert' sum, pro persuasus sum, non de certitudine evidentiae, sed de certitudine persuasionis (〈◊〉 constat esse Fidei) sermo est , 1. Cor. 2. 12. And S. john saith, That he which receiveth the hidden Manna knows it, Apoc. 2. 17. The Fathers also, and many Doctors of the Roman Church affirm the same. S. Augustine c Aug. d. Trin. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Video me 〈◊〉 si credo. , I see that I believe, if I believe: and in another place d Jdem. sup. Psalm. 10. Haec duo non mihi incerta sunt bonitas illus, & 〈◊〉 mea. , These two things are not uncertain to me, the goodness of God, and mine own Faith: and in another place e Idem sup. joh. tr. 5. Nemo 〈◊〉 hominem: redeat vnusquisquè in cor suum, si ibi invenerit fraternam charitatem, securus sit 〈◊〉 transijt à morte ad vitam, 〈◊〉 in dextera est. , Let every man enter into his own heart, and if he find there brotherly Charity, let him be secure, for he is passed from death unto life: and in a fourth place f Id d. Trinit. lib. 8. c. 8. Magis novit dilectionem qua diligit, quam fratrem quem 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 sup. 2. Cor. 13. Qui Fidei suae sensum in cord habet, hic scit Christum 〈◊〉 in se esse. Aug. d. verb. Apost. serm. 6. Eccè adiwante ipsius misericordia spiritum Christi habemus, ex ipsa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, integrà Fide, Catholica Fide, spiritum Dei nobis inesse cognoscimus. Cyprian. lib. d. Mortal. Si in Christum credimus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & promissis eius habeamus, & non morituri in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christum, cum quo & victuri & regnaturi semper sumus, laeta se curitate venismus. , 〈◊〉 man knoweth the Charity wherewith he loveth his brother, better than his brother. But to the end the difference between our Adversaries and us concerning this question, may the better appear, I will deliver our Doctrine in certain propositions. First, We maintain, that such persons only can have true assurance and certainty of their justification, which believe and repent, and are resolved to obey God's commandments a Beza Colloq. Momp. p. 471. Consolatio quod adoptati sumus, petenda est ex effectis Spiritus Sancti, quando videlicet sentimus in nobis eiusmodi motus Spiritus Sancti, qui testificantur nos vere regeneratos, & in filios Dei adoptatos esse. Nam Spiritus Sanctus testimonium perhibet Spiritui nostro quod simus filij Dei, hos motus in nobis si sentiamus minime dubitemus nos vere esse filios Dei. D. 〈◊〉. d. Pursue. c. 15. Neque preterquam in study bonorum 〈◊〉 cuiquam certa esse potest. 〈◊〉. loc. come. to. 3. d. justif. p. 1089. Nequaquam affirmamus, quemlibet hominem sine discrimine certum esse posse de salute sua, siquidem Epicuraeis contemptoribus omni paenitentia destitutis, tantum abest ut certitudinem gratiae persuasam esse velimus, ut potius certam damnationem illis expectandam esse doceamus, tota autem quaestio est de homine peccatore veram & seriam poenitentiam agente, ac fide in Christum Mediatorem se errigente. an is 〈◊〉 esse possit ac debeat. Chem. Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 1. pa. 185. Muscul. loc. come. d. Remiss. pecc. Sect. 6. Discernendum est inter eam gratiam Dei, quae nullas habet adiectas conditiones: qualis est, quod solem suum producit super bonos & malos, pluitque super gratos & ingratos, & eam quae conditionaliter confertur, ad quem modum peccatorum nobis remissio contingit. . Secondly, A Christian of a contrite spirit, believing only that his sins are remissible, and which earnestly desireth remission of sins by the merits of Christ, and joineth with this desire the exercise of virtue; receiveth forgiveness, although he be vexed with scruples and temptations, and want assurance, and persuasion in himself, that his sins are remitted b Chem. Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 1. pa. 185. d. Fid. justif. Fides nec semper, nec in omnibus est jux arden's, sed saepè linum tantum fumigans, est enim 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Centurion, & Cananaea, est modica, Math. 14. imbe cillis, Rom. 14. & haec infirmitas vel est in agnitionc, Rom. 14. vel in fiducia, Rom. 9 iustificat autem fides, non propterea quod sit virtus, tam firma & 〈◊〉, sed propter obiectum, scilicit Mediatorem quod apprehendit, aut apprehendere conatur: quando igitur fides in obiccto non errat, sed illud inter trepidationes fiducia quantumuis languida apprehendit, aut apprehendere conatur, est quidem modica & infirma fides, vera tamen fides, & Paulus, dulcissimas proponit consolationes in tali 〈◊〉 infirmitate. Phil. 3. Apprehendo, imo magis apprehensus sum à Christo. Gal. 4. Cognovistis Deum, imo magis cogniti estis à Deo, ex sensu etiam consolationis & gaudij spiritualis, non semper iudicari vel debet vel potest, an fides sit vera. Sensus enim ille non precedit sed sequitur Fidem, & saepè absconditur, & 〈◊〉 cruse & tentationibus. . Thirdly, The particular certainty of remission of sins which just persons attain unto upon their Repentance, Obedience, and Faith, is not equal in the firmity of assent to that assurance which they have about the common object of Faith, to wit, concerning the articles of Creation, Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection, or the like c Bannes. 22. q. 6. ar. 2. Concl. 5. pa. 235. Haec certitudo quod ego habeam lumen fidei supernaturale, nunquam est tanta licet sit infallibilis, quanta est 〈◊〉 fidei circa obiectum direct 〈◊〉 à Deo, & ab Ecclesia propositum. Quia fides non causat directe illum assensum, sed per reflectionem intellectus supra suum actum, per quam expresse lumine naturali videt se credere, utrum autem credat ex lumine fidei 〈◊〉 argumentative, per bonam consequentiam, sed nullus Theologicus discursus est tam 〈◊〉 quam assensio Principiorum. Ergo nemo potest esse tam certus se habere sidem, 〈◊〉 certus est Deum esse hominem. 〈◊〉. Medina. sup. Thom. Aq. 1.2. q. 112. ar. 5. pag. 628. , because these articles are immediately and totally revealed in the holy Scripture; but that his sins in particular are remitted, unto a penitent person, dependeth upon an Argument, whereof one part only is immediately the Word of God, and the other part is a collection arising upon reflection, and observation of a man's own qualities and actions, and the conclusion is more or less certain a Bern. in 〈◊〉. 3. 〈◊〉 crescis in gratiam, tantum 〈◊〉 in fiduciam. ; according to the condition of the second Proposition. Fourthly, The certainty and assurance of their own particular justification, which just persons attain unto, is reduced by us to certainty and assurance of Faith, because one ground thereof is a Proposition, or Sentence, mediately Divine; the other is inferred and concluded from that which is Divine: for the Rule by which a man discerneth himself, to believe and repent, is the Doctrine of God's Word, declaring the quality of Faith and Repentance. Many Pontificians maintain, That this Proposition, to wit, Pope Gregory the fifteenth is S. Peter's Successor, is of Faith b Did. Nugnus, sup. 3. p. Tho. Addit. q. 20. ar. 3. jac. Brower. Clavis, Apost. ar. 4. Franc. Arauxo. Carillo. Mich. Marcos. Mich. Vasques. Peres. ; and yet the same is not an immediate Divine Revelation, and the collection thereof from that which is revealed, is less evident and certain, than that which a just person maketh concerning his own particular Faith and Charity. Fiftly, The difference between some learned Papists (who lived since the Trident Council) and us, concerning this Question, is very small (if it be any at all) for they maintain, That just persons may have a true and certain assurance, without distrustful doubting of their justification c Andr. 〈◊〉, d. justif. lib. 9 cap. 47. Mature tamen omnibus, hinc inde pensatis, probabilius profecto esse crediderim, posse aliquos 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, tantopere in exercitijs spiritualibus, & in familiaritate Divina proficere, ut absque ulla temeritate, possunt certo & absque ulla haesitatione credere se invenisse gratiam & remissionem peccatorum suorum apud Deum. Ibidem, cap. 20. Possum gloriari & 〈◊〉, quod mihi conscius sum, me habere fidem synceram, spem certam, & 〈◊〉 non fictam, in Deum & proximos. Ruard. Tapper, 〈◊〉. 9 pag. 81. Name in intellectu ex consideratione 〈◊〉 Dei respondet certa, & firma 〈◊〉, omne dubium de peccatorum remissione excludens, non tamen infallibilis, quasi de eo haberetur verbum 〈◊〉 peculiariter ad aliquem factum, sicut ad Paralyticum factum 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Cert. Grat. cap. 5. 〈◊〉 remissionem, & gratiam Dei non solum sperare, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere posse ac debere, quo 〈◊〉 modo 〈◊〉 debet? Eo planè sensu, quo 〈◊〉 verbum Credo solet 〈◊〉, pag. 161. Perer. sup. Rom. 8. Disp. 9 ; and that infused Faith inclineth and leadeth immediately to this certainty and assurance d Ruard. ar. 9 d. Fid. & Spe. pag. 80. Quae quidem 〈◊〉; 〈◊〉 multo sit inferior certitudine 〈◊〉, quia tamen a sententijs Scripturae 〈◊〉, ideo fides quae est virtus infusa mediate ad illam 〈◊〉. . And it is worthy observation which Andreas Vega delivereth concerning the Trident Council, saying, Non negat sciri hoc posse per fidem, sed tantum negat sciri hoc posse certitudine fidei e Vega, d. justif. lib 9 cap. 8. pag. 216. 〈◊〉, in 1.2. p. 2. Disp. 201. cap. 2. 〈◊〉. 11. 〈◊〉 semel concedamus, nobis certo constare 〈◊〉 cui non 〈◊〉 subesse falsum, nos habere dilectionis affectum erga Deum, 〈◊〉 etiam certo nos esse in gratia, 〈◊〉 aut 〈◊〉 actu iustificamur, aut cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est iustificatio. : The Council denyeth not, that one may be able to know by Faith, that he is in the state of Grace; but it denyeth only, that this can be known by certainty of Faith. It is also remarkable, That whiles the Romists accuse us about the definition of justifying Faith, they forget the Beam which is in their own eye: for they make such a Faith, the foundation of true justification, as is common with Devils a August. in Ep-Ioh. troth. 10. Fides sine dilectione fides Daemonis. jansen. Conc. Euang. cap. 32. Qualem fidem etiam Daemones habent. Mich. Palac. sup. 3. Sent. Dist. 23. Disp. 7. Daemons credunt omnibus Articulis Fidei. , jam. 2. 19 and which, according to their own Doctrine, is no true Virtue. It is (saith Michael Palacius b Ibid. Disp. 5. Disputatio haec sub lite adhuc agitur. Albert' credit, non esse proprie virtutem sed improprie. 〈◊〉. Aquin. in 3. d. 23. q. 3. ar. 2. Informis fides non habet actum perfectum, & ideo non potest esse virtus. Bonauent. 3. d. 23. q. 2. Durand. 3. d. 23. q. 6. n. 11. Arch. Rubeo 3. d. 23. Non est virtus proprie dicta. ) a great Question, and as yet undecided among us, Whether Faith be a true Virtue, or not? and Albertus thinketh, it is not properly a Virtue, but only improperly. Aquinas, It hath not a perfect Act, and therefore it cannot be a Virtue. The like is affirmed by Bonaventure, Durand, Archangelus Rubeo, etc. And the same is manifest by reason: For Virtue is a good quality, making the person in whom it is seated, and his actions, good c August. d. lib. Arbitr. lib. 2. cap. 18, 19 Idem, d. Mor. Eccles. Cath. cap. 6. ; and the Faith which the holy Scripture and the ancient Fathers require to justification d Idem, sup. Psal. 32. In ipsa fide sunt omnia opera quae diligit Deus. Sixtus, Papa, ep. 3. d. Mal. Doct. Vbicunque fidei fructus non est, illic quoque nec ipsa fides esse credenda est. Hieron. sup. Gal. cap. 5. Cum dilectio procul abfuerit, & fides pariter abscedit. Saluian. d. Gub. Dei, lib. 3. Quid est credulitas vel fides? Opinor fideliter hominem credere Christo, id est fidelem Deo esse, fideliter Dei mandata seruare. , purifieth the heart, Acts 15.9. and impelleth unto righteousness, Heb. 11. 33. But informed Catholic Faith performeth none of these things, jam. 2. 17. And therefore the Romists depart from the Scripture, and from Antiquity, when they appoint a dead and informed Faith, which is no Virtue, to be the foundation of true justification. Lastly, Our Doctrine concerning the form and manner of justification, is the same which Peter Lombard e Pet. Lomb. sent. lib. 3. d. 19 A. In eo quod sumus iustificati, id est a peccatis soluti, etc. Dicimur quoque & aliter per mortem Christi iustificati, quia per fidé mortis eius a peccatis mundamur. Vnde Apostolus iustitia Dei est per fidem jesu Christi. Et item quem Deus proposuit propitiatorem per fidem in sanguine ipsius, id est, per fidem Passionis: Vt olim aspicientes in Serpentem AEneum in ligno erectum, a morsibus Serpentum sanabantur. Si ergo recte 〈◊〉 intuitu in illum respicimus, qui pro nobis pependit in ligno a vinculis Diaboli soluimur, id est, a peccatis: Et ita a Diabolo liberamur, ut nec post hanc vitam in nobis inveniat quod puniat Morte quippe sua, uno verissimo Sacrificio, quicquid culparum erat, unde nos Diabolus ad luenda supplicia detinebat, Christus extinxit. , the Master of the School, affirmed to be Orthodoxal in his days: His words are these, We are said also to be justified by the death of Christ, because by the Faith of his Death, we are cleansed from our sins: Whereupon the Apostle saith, The righteousness of God is by the Faith of jesus Christ (Rom. 3. 22.) whom God hath set forth, to be a propitiation through Faith in his blood (Verse 25.) that is through Faith of his Passion; even as in times past, they which were bitten of fiery Serpents, were made whole by looking upon the Brazen Serpent, which was raised upon a piece of Wood If therefore we by the aspect of Faith rightly behold him, who was hanged upon a Tree for us, we are loosed from the bonds of Satan, to wit, from our sins. 〈◊〉 Vega affirmeth, That many Roman Doctors in former days, denied that men were formally justified by any created quality inhaerent, but only by the free grace and favour of God, accepting man, and imparting the righteousness of Christ unto him. And that until the Trident Council, the present Doctrine of Pontificians, concerning the formal cause of justification, was only received as probable a Andr. Vega, d. justif. lib. 7. cap. 24. Magna fuit iam ab aliquibus retro seculis inter nonnullos Doctores concertatio, quae esset nostrae iustificationis causa formalis: & quibusdam quidem placuisse videtur, nullam esse iustitiam creatam, a qua formaliter homo esset iustus, sicut ab albedine est homo albus: sed perinde esse hominem iustum, & amicum & gratum Deo, ab amore quo Deus illum amat, & ad Gratiam suam & beatitudinem acceptat, ac Petrus est Iohanni amicus & gratus, ab amore quo Icannes Petrum prosequitur. Ac 〈◊〉 in hac sententia crediderunt Magistrum Sententiarum fuisse. Alij vero, etc. Causam formalem nostrae justificationis asseruere esse aliquam qualitatem creatam, etc. Et haec opinio acceptata est ab Ecclesia in Concilio Viennensi, ut probabilior. . And before the said Council, many learned Papists, to wit, Albertus Pighius, the Council of Colen, set forth by Gropper, Antididagma Coloniense, Conradus Clingius, etc. maintained our Doctrine concerning the formal cause of justification, and were not condemned of Heresy by the Roman Church: Wherefore the same cannot in these days be a fundamental Error in us. Jesuit. FIftly, Their extenuating the value of the price of our Redemption, not making it sufficient to give inward sanctity and purity to men's souls, nor to raise the good Works of God's children to a due proportion with their reward. ANSWER. NO Christian Church ever prised the oblation and merits of Christ more highly and religiously than we, Heb. 10. 14. Eph. 5.2. Acts 4. 12. joh. 1.29. and we firmly believe the inestimable price and virtue thereof a Bernard. Fer. 4. Heb. Pentacost. Mirabilis passio tua Domine jesu, quae Passiones omnium nostrum propulsavit, propitiata est omnibus iniquitatib' nostris, & nulli unquam Pesti nostrae invenitur in efficax. Ambros. lib. d. Isaach. cap. 8. Ipse Christus est os nostrum, per quod Patri 〈◊〉, oculus noster per quem Patrem 〈◊〉, dextera nostra per quam nos Patri offerrimus. Idem, in Serm. Quodam. Omnia habemus in Christo, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 desideras Medicus est, fi febribus aestuas fons est, si 〈◊〉 iniqua sententia, iustitia est, si indiges auxilio, virtus est, si mortem times, vira est, 〈◊〉 tenebras fugis lux est: Si 〈◊〉 desideras, via est: si alimentum quaeris, cibus est. , for man's Redemption, Sanctification, justification, and Glorification, 1. Cor. 1. 30. And in particular we believe expressly, and contrary to our Adversary's accusation, That the same is all-sufficient to justify a sinner in the sight of God, and to give true and inhaerent sanctity and purity to men's souls, and actions: first, in this life, sanctity and purity, secundum statum viae, according to the condition of man's wayfaring state: secondly, in the life to come, sanctity and purity of perfect righteousness, without error or sin. And we believe, that the Sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross effecteth all this, both by way of merit and influence a Calvin. sup. Rom. 6. v. 4. 〈◊〉 Apostolum non hic simpliciter nos adhortari ad Christi imitationem, ac si diceret 〈◊〉 Christi exemplaris vice esse, quod Christianis omnibus convenit, imitari: nam certe altius conscendit, etc. Haec est autem 〈◊〉, Quod mors Christi efficax est, ad nequitiam Carnis nostrae extinguendam, etc. , Rom. 6. 3, 4, 5. joh. 15. 1. etc. What then doth this Popish Momus accuse in our Doctrine? I suppose, his own fancy: for it is ordinary with Papals to calumniate, saying, That we hold Good works to be mortal sins b 〈◊〉. d. justif. lib. 4. c. 1. Bona opera non sunt bona, ex ipsorum sententia, nisi nomine & secundum quid, reipsa vero & simpliciter sunt mortalia peccata. Perer. sup. Genes. cap. 6. Disp. 5. nu. 138. , and that they are Virtues only by extrinsecall denomination: and he is also offended, that we make not Good works properly and condignly meritorious. Concerning the first, I refer my Reader to the words of Melancthon c Melanct. Corp. Doctr. tit. d. Bon. oper. pag. 20. , and Beza d Beza, Quaest & Resp. in Opusc. to. 2. pa. 676. Bucer. & alij in colloquio, Ratisbon. pag. 313. Hoc vero tu pie lector, nos de iustitia inchoata haec sentire & confiteri: Esse quidem illam iustitiam veram & vivam, Dei praeclarum & eximium Donum, vitamque novam in Christo hac iustitia constare, omnesque sanctos hac ipsa quoque iustitia iustos esse & coram Deo, & coram hominibus, & propter eam quoque sanctos a Deo iustificari iustificatione operum, id est comprobari eos a Deo, laudari & remunerari. Attamen quamlibet haec iustitia vera sit & viva, etc. , who treating of this Question, speak as followeth: Although the works of regenerate persons are not so perfect and good, as that they are able to merit eternal life, yet they are truly good, because they proceed from the Holy Ghost, who purisieth the heart by Faith, and because God is glorified by them, and we ourselves receive excellent fruit e August. d. Spir. & Lit. cap. 14. Praecepta Legis tam sunt salutaria facienti, ut nisi quis ea faecerit vitam habere non possit. by them, etc. The same are good, in regard of their object, form, efficient, and end, Psal. 119. 167. Galath. 5.22. Phil. 2.13. 1. Cor. 10.31. They are good fruits, opposed to evil fruits, Matth. 7.17. works of Light, opposed to works of Darkness, Eph. 5.9. a spiritual Sacrifice, acceptable to God, Phil. 4.18. And the same are truly good f Orig. sup. Rom. lib. 6. Non 〈◊〉 in iustis 〈◊〉 verae virtutes non sint, etc. , non comparatione scelerum, not comparatively only, but Regula virtutum, according to the Rule of Virtue. August. c. 2. Ep. Pelag. lib. 4. cap. 10. The imperfection and sin g Greg. Mor. li. 5. cap. 7. Ipsa iustitia nostra ad examen divinae iustitia deducta, iniustitia est, & sordet in districtione judicis, quae in aestimatione fulget operantis, unde Paulus nihil mihi conscius sum, sed protinus adiunxit, sed non in hoc iustificatus sum. Ibid. cap. 8. & lib. 8. c. 13. & 20. & 23. & lib. 9 c. 14. & 27. & lib. 35. c. 26. Bona quae nos habere credimus, pura bona esse nequaquam possunt. 〈◊〉. d. verb. Esa. Serm. 5. Nostra si quae est humilis iustitia recta forsitan sed non pura, etc. Idem, d. Deed 〈◊〉 Serm. 5. & sup. Cantic. Serm. 38. & 61. 〈◊〉. Confess. lib. 9 cap. 13. Vae etiam laudabili vitae si remota misericordia discutias eam Domine. which is adjacent and concomitant to the virtuous actions of iustmen, changeth not their kind, because the same is freely remitted: Et quicquid alias in 〈◊〉 vitij est, Christi puritate sepultum non imputatur, saith 〈◊〉. Whatsoever defect or fault is otherwise found in them, being covered with Christ's purity, is not imputed a 〈◊〉. Instit. l. 3. c. 17. n. 10. 〈◊〉. Concil. Enchir. d. Sacram. p. 132. 〈◊〉 illa 〈◊〉, & opera nostra adiuta per gratiam 〈◊〉 & si legem non adimpleant, tamen Deo placent, non quidem propter dignitatem voluntatis, seu operis nostri, sed imputatiue per gratiam. . And this Doctrine concerning the imperfection of good Works, as they are considered in themselves (in this life) is delivered, both by the Fathers, and by many learned Pontificians. Andrea's Vega d. justif, lib. 11. c. 38 b Veg. d. Iust. li. 11. c. 38. Non solum verum est, vitam quorumuis iustorum, multis maculis venialibus, iugiter sordidari, & deturpari, sed ipsa etiam perfectorum opera, à bonitate illa long deficeere, qua deceret nos Deum colere, laudare, & honorare: sunt quippe multis imperfectionibus quoad hic vivitur coniuncta, neque tam pura, neque tam sancta, & feruentia, quam magnitudo divinae bonitatis, & beneficentiae in nos exigeret. Ibid. Multa nunc fieri à nobis bona opera, & absque ulla macula peccati, quae tamen si districtè vellet Deus nobiscum agere, iniustitiae essent, etc. . It is not only true, that the life of all just men, is daily spotted with many venial sins, but the very works of perfect men, are very deficient, from that goodness whereby it beseemed us, to have served, praised, and honoured God: for they are conjoined with many Imperfections, whiles men live here; neither are they so pure, holy, and fervent, as the largeness of 〈◊〉 goodness and bounty towards us requires, and many good works are now performed by us, without any blot of sin, which notwithstanding, if God should deal strictly with us, were unrighteousness. To the like purpose speaketh Cassalius c Cassal. d. quadr. Iust. l. 3. c. 23. Aliud est loqui de nostra iustitia prout est sola: & aliud est loqui de nostra iustitia prout est cum poenitentia & charitate, prout est sola, fortassis manca, est mutila, & deformis, quia in multis deficimus omnes, 〈◊〉 autem est cum poenitentia, & charitate, long alio modo se habet, quia poenitentia nostra 〈◊〉 nostros defectus a 〈◊〉 dissimulari, & charitas facit nostros defectus à lege operiri: ubi vero defectus à lege dissimulantur & operiuntur, nullus apparet defectus nullaque deformitas in 〈◊〉 legis. d. quadripart. Iust. lib. 3. cap. 23. The Council of Colen d Conc. Colon Imperfecta illa obedientia & opera nostra adiuta, per gratiam subsequentem, etsi legem non adimpleant, tamen Deo placent, non quidem propter dignitatem voluntatis seu operis nostri, sed imputatiue per gratiam. Mauburn. Si quaedam bona ex gratia agit, tanta indevotione ea permiscet quod omnes iustitiae nostrae (〈◊〉 〈◊〉) sunt Deo quasi pannus menstruatae quo foedius execrabiliusque nihil. Stella. Non est confidendum in propria iustitia, quia iustitiae nostrae non sunt purae, iuxta illud Esaiae, facti sumus, ut immundi omnes nos. Gerson. to. 3. d. Consol. lib. 4. pros. 1. Quis gloriabit mundum cor se habere? Quis dixerit innocens & mundus sum? Quis non constitutus sub iudicijs Dei terribilis in Consilijs super filios hominum, non trepidaverit? Hinc afflictus Iob verebar omnia opera mea (ait Deo) sciens quod non parceres delinquenti. Et iterum, si voluerit mecum contendere, non poteto respondere unum pro mille. Cui conformis est Oratio Prophetica, non intres in iudicium cum 〈◊〉 tuo Domine, quia non iustificabitur in conspectu tuo omnis vivens. Et 〈◊〉 si iniquitates obseruaveris Domine, quis sustinebit? Porro quid Esaias se cum coeteris involuens sibique vilescens humili confessione protulerit 〈◊〉. Omnes iustitiae nostrae tanquam pannus menstruatae. Quis igitur iustitias suas velut gloriabundus ostentauerir Deo: plusquam pannum confusionis suae mulier viro. Quem denique non exterruerit Apostoli verbum dicentis. Nihil mihi conscius sum sed non in hoc iustificatus sum. Caiet. in. 2. Thess. 1. Vt digni habeamini regno Dei, etc. Non dicit digni sitis (quoniam non sunt condignae passiones huius temporis, ad futurum regnum) sed ut digni habeamini ab ipso Deo. d. Sacram. p. 132. Maubnrn. Roset. Exerc. Spirit. tit. 32. part. 2. d. 4. c. 3. m. 2. Didacus'. Stella. sup. Luc. ca 18. And many other, which I have cited in my Defence of Dr. john White, pa. 20. Concerning the second branch of the Jesuits accusation, to wit, That Protestants extenuate the price of Christ's redemption, not making it sufficient to raise the good Works of God's children, to a due proportion, with the reward. I answer: That if by due proportion, etc. he understand a dignity in Good works, 〈◊〉 to the reward, than he must condemn Saint Paul himself, for extenuating the price of Christ's redemption, who saith, That the sufferings (Martyrdoms) of this present time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us, Rom. 8. 18. St. Hierom. sup. Eph. 2. Nec affirmare licet, merita nostra, ex aequo Dei gratiae & misericordiae respondere, alioqui perperam dixisset Paulus, Rom. 8. Non sunt condignae passiones, etc. It is unlawful to affirm, that our merits are equal to the grace and mercy of God, for then St. Paul had spoken amiss, saying, The sufferings of this life, are not worthy, etc. Saint Chrysost. Imperf. in Math. Hom. 53. What have we wrought in this world, to merit communion with God in his celestial kingdom, and therefore the Apostle speaketh justly: I do not think the passions of this life (condignly) worthy of future glory, etc. sup. Rom. Hom. 14. The Apostle in every place laboureth to show us, that all which God doth for us, is not of debt, but of mere grace: Leo d. Assumpt. serm. 1. Neque de qualitate operum pendet coelestium mensura donorum. The measure of celestial gifts, depends not upon the quality of works. Saint August. sup. joh. tr. 3. Non pro merito accipias vitam aeternam, sed tantum pro gratia: Thou shalt not receive eternal life for thy merit, but only for grace. Origen. sup. Rom. 4. I cannot persuade myself, that any work of man can challenge reward upon debt, because we receive our power, to think, speak, and do good, by the gift and largesse of God. Saint Basil. sup. Psal. 114 a Basil. Manet requies sempiterna illos, qui in hac vita legitime certaverunt, non tanquam debitum 〈◊〉 redditum, sed ob 〈◊〉 Dei gratiam, in quo speraverunt exhibitam. pag. 137. . Eternal rest abideth for them which have lawfully striven, not as due debt to be rendered to their works, but for the grace of the most bountiful God, in whom they have trusted. Saint Bernard. serm. 1. Annunc. Mariae. Concerning life eternal, we know, that the passions of this life are not worthy of future glory, no not if one man should endure them all. Neither are the merits of men such, as that therefore eternal life is due to them in right, or that God should wrong man, if he should not bestow the same upon him, etc. The arrogant and foolish opinion of modern Papists, concerning the merit of condignity, was always opposed by Pontificians b joh. Ferus. in Math. l. 3. c. 20. Docet 〈◊〉 haec parabola, primo gratiam 〈◊〉 non debitum, 〈◊〉 à Deo nobis datur. Omnes enim iustitiae, nostrae, tanquam pannus menstruatae: imo ne ipsae passiones quidem huius temporis sunt condignae ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Quod si aliquando mercedem audis polliceri, scias non ob aliud esse debitum, quam ex 〈◊〉 divina. Gratis promisit, gratis reddit. Si igitur Dei gratiam & favorem 〈◊〉 cupis, nullam meritorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. themselves c Velosil. Advert in 〈◊〉. & alios. in to. 8. August. Quaesit. 13. pa. 369. Scotus negat meritum de condigno, etc. similiter Durandus & 〈◊〉. , Scotus, Durand, Marsilius ab Inguen. Dionysius Cistertiensis, Gregory Arminine, Thomas Walden. Paulus Burgensis, joh. Ferus, Eckius a Eckius. in 〈◊〉. & d. praedest. , Pighius b Pigh. d. lib. Arb. li. 5. pa. 81. , etc. And many who propugne the doctrine of merit of condignity, equivocate, and speak improperly c Scribon. Pantal. in Theandr. d. mer. Christ. Disp. 11. pa. 177. Cum longe praemium excedat meritum, & opus quodcunque hominis sit valoris finiti, quatenus 〈◊〉 est Creatura, est finita, nunquam omnibus 〈◊〉 operibus ex 〈◊〉 posset gloriam scmpiternam promereri, & fruitionem infiniti boni, nisi ex divina complacentia placeret Deo optimo maximo retribuere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ultra 〈◊〉, serui enim inutiles sumus. 〈◊〉 lib. 2. in sent. q. 18. ar. 4. Opus esse meritorium vitae aeternae, potest intelligi 〈◊〉, uno modo quia tale est ex parte sui, vel secundum se, vel ex gratia cooperante. Alio modo 〈◊〉 quia Dei 〈◊〉 liberaliter acceptante, & ex illa dispositione liberali, tantum praemiare disponente pro opere sic facto. 〈◊〉 est modus minus proprius. . Paulus Cararia Theolog. Mor. & Canon. Reg. 1. ar. 3. p. 2. Strict loquendo, non 〈◊〉 meritum condigni, inter nos & Deum: If a man will speak properly and strictly, there is no merit of Condignity between God and us. Baltassar Navaret. sup. 1. par. Thom. q. 21. ar. 1. ca 28. pa. 603. God is said to be a debtor to man, by a certain Hyperbole. Genebrard. sup. Psal. 19 v. 13. Opera sunt longe infra retributiones, Good works are far inferior to the reward. And whereas some Pontificians say, d Altisiodor. sum. l. 3. tr. 12. q. 2. Mereri de condigno 〈◊〉 facere de debito debitum vel de debito magis debitum, ita quod iniuste agitur cum eo nisi reddatur ei quod meruit: Ergo Deus iniuste ageret cum eo nisi reddatur ei quod meruit. Rhem. Hebr. 6. Annot. 10. Good works are meritorious, etc. so far, that God should be unjust if he rendered not heaven for the same. that God were unjust, if he did not condignly reward good Works: Durand e Durand. 2. Dist. 27. q. 2. n. 14. Sentire seu dicere oppositum est temerarium seu blasphemium propter quod si decedenti in gratia Deus non daret gloriam nihil iniustum faceret, etc. affirmeth that this speech is blasphemous. They are miserably divided and distracted, about their doctrine of merit of Condignity, like the builders of the Tower of Babel. First, Some of them simply and absolutely deny it f Dionis. Cistert. 3. Dist. 1. q. 2. ar. 3. & 4. d. 43. q. 3. ar. 1. Marsil. 2. q. 18. ar. 3. & 4. . Secondly, Some say good Works are meritorious only, by reason of the promise and acceptation of God, and these also upon the matter deny it g Vasques sup. 1.2. p. 2. Disp. 214. ca 1. Opera bona perse spectata, etc. Non habere condignitatem & rationem meriti, etc. sed totam rationem meriti habere petitam ex promissione & pacto Dei affirmant, Scotus, Greg. Arimin. Gabriel, Occam, Alph. Castro, Vega, etc. Hij Doctores, revera denegant miritum operum, & totam vim merendi ascribunt operibus Christi. Vide etiam pa. 805. 〈◊〉. d. Tripl. Hom. Offic. l. 2. c. 28. pa. 366. . Thirdly, Others affirm, they merit condignly, by the very nature and dignity of the work, secluding the divine Promise h Vasques ibid. Caietan. Soto, etc. ut 〈◊〉. Fran. Petigian. 3. Dist. 20. ar. 3. . Fourthly, Others affirm, that merit of works, is founded, partly upon the dignity of the work, and partly upon the promise of God i Bellarm. Suares. Medina. ut refert. Fran. Petigian. 3. Dist. 20. ar. 3. . Fiftly, Some of them hold, that God rewardeth according to the rule of commutative justice k Greg. Val. to. 1. q. 21. Suares. Dispd. just. Dei sect. 2. & 6. & refert Pius d. Ponte. sup. Tho. 1. q. 21. dub. 1. ; others say, according to distributive l Richard. 4. d. 46. ar. 1. q. 1. Argentina. ib. q. vnic. ar. 1. conclus. 2. Capreol. 1. d. 45. q. un. Hosius confess. c. 73. Ferrar. c. gent. l. 1. c. 93, etc. ; and others, according to both m Bell. d. 〈◊〉. l. 5. c. 14. Quod si quis hic explicari cupiat utrum Deus secundum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, an secundum commutativam, bonis hominum meritis sit praemia 〈◊〉, breviter habeat substantiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 secundum distributivam, iustitiam sore, modum autem secundum commutativam. . Now considering this uncertainty of Popish Faith, in the matter of merit, and also the opposition thereof by so many of great note among themselves; the jesuit was over precipitate in condemning Protestants of fundamental error, for not believing that Doctrine, the certainty whereof, himself, and his Colleagues are not able to deliver. But the Protestant Doctrine, concerning good Works, is perspicuous, orthodoxal, consenting with the holy Scripture, and the ancient Church, and tendeth both to the honour of God, and the advancing of the Grace of, Christ and also to the promoting of the care and study of good Works. First, we believe that good Works are necessary to salvation a Apologia Ecclesie Anglicanae 〈◊〉 bona opera necessaria esse Christiano ad salutem. 〈◊〉. apolog. Thes. pag. 263. August. d. Spir. & Lit. c. 14. Praecepta Legis tam sunt salutaria facienti, ut 〈◊〉 quis ea fecerit, vitam habere non possit. , and that all men which will be saved must carefully apply themselves to the practice and exercise thereof. Tit. 3.8. joh. 15. 2.8. Heb. 12.14. Apoc. 22.14. Secondly, God rewardeth good Works of his bounty and grace b Marsil. 2. q. 18. ar. 4. Talis est obligatio creaturae ad Deum quod quantò plus soluit, tantò plus tenetur, patet per rationem, 〈◊〉 quantò plus soluit, tantò plus de merito habet & bonis operibus, & ergo tanto plus debet. with benefits spiritual and temporal. Gen. 22.16. 〈◊〉. 6.35.2. john v. 8. Thirdly, in giving reward, he considereth the mind and quality of the doer, the integrity, measure, and quantity of the work. 2. Cor. 9.6. Fourthly, the reward is certain c Chrys. Gen. hom. 55. Non ita fidere debemus, his quae in manib' habemus & videmns, ut promissionibus Dei. Idem. tom. 1. hom. d. Nom. Abrahae. Aug. sup. plal. 109. and infallible, yea more certain than any temporal benefit which man presently enjoys in the world, Gen. 22.16. Fiftly, there is in all good Works a dignity, not of desert or equiparance, either in respect of God, of whom we can deserve nothing d Perer. in 〈◊〉. 6. v. 5. disp. 5. n. 148. Praeter debita gratitudinis, quae nemosatis exoluere Deo potest, ea quoquè debita quae divino praecepto persoluere tenemur, nemo perfectae persoluit. , or in respect of the reward, but only of grace, divine similitude, goodness, and honour. Phil. 4.8. Sixtly, the reward of good works is called a crown of righteousness e Marsil. 2. q. 18. ar. 4. justus est in remunerando, quià iusta dispositione sua, disposuit ex gratia acceptationis, minus 〈◊〉 maiori praemio coronare non iustitia debita, sed gratia & dispositione bene placiti divini. 〈◊〉. Concil. Colon. d. Sacram. so. 130. Reposita est nobis Corona justitiae Dei, qua iustum est ut reddat, quod 〈◊〉 promisit, non quidem ex debito sed ex gratia. , 2. Tim. 4. 8. because it is bestowed on them which exercise righteousness, and in regard of their righteousness: but merit of condignity and righteousness are 〈◊〉 tsting, as appeareth in Angels and Infants which have righteousness, and are crowned with glory, and yet they do not merit. Seventhly, the ancient Fathers maintained no merit of condignity, but by the word Mereri, they understood either to obtain a 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. Dei, lib. 5. c. 24. Haec & alia vitae huius munera etc. quidam cultores Daemonum accipere meruerunt, qui non pertinent, ad regnum Dei, etc. Idem. d. Temp. Serm. 49. Paulus meruit Indulgentiam, & Serm 58. Man asses 〈◊〉 inter amicos Dei numerari. Ambros. Serm. 53. johannes tantam gratiam nascendo meruit, Idem. d. Paen. lib. 〈◊〉. ca 〈◊〉. Ecclesia Domini jesu meruit Aduentum. , or to impetrate b Aug. Epist. 105. Nequè ipsa remissio peccatorum sine merito est si Fides hanc impetrat. Isiodor. Exhort. ad Paenit. Ninivitae impia obscoena nefanda 〈◊〉 flagitia, 〈◊〉 paenitendo merentur. Vid. Andr. Vegam. d. justif. li. 8. c. 6. & 7. : and this is manifest, because they apply the word (Merit) not only to just men, but also to sinners, saying, that they merited Repentance, remission of Sins, the call of Grace, etc. Eithtly, the prime part of man's justice is the remission of his sins c joh. Hessel. sup. Math. 6. v. 12. Huius vitae justitia praecipuè (ut ait August de Civit. Dei, li. 19 c. 27.) in remissione peccatorum 〈◊〉 , and the righteousness of Faith; for without these, there can be no true and living moral righteousness, and where these are found, good Works are never wanting. Jesuit. Sixthly, Their errors against Baptism, the gate and entrance into Christian life, whereof they deny the virtue to sanctify men, and the 〈◊〉 thereof for infants, to whom they grant Salvation without Baptism. ANSWER. ALthough some persons have been Christians before their Baptism, as S. Augustine a August. d. Bapt. lib. 4. cap. 24. Sicut in Abraham praecessit fidei iustitia, & accessit Circumcisio signaculum rustitiae fidei: ita in Cornelio, 〈◊〉 sanctificatio Spiritualis in dono Spiritus sancti, & accessit Sacrameutum regenerationis in lavacro Baptismi, etc. Ambr. li 5. epist. in orat. Funeb. Valentin. Imperat. Tilman. Segeberg. d. 7. Sacram. c. 1. P. Lombard. li. 4. Sent. Dist. 4. E. saith of Cornelius. Even as in Abraham the justice of Faith was precedent, and the seal of Circumcision followed after: so likewise in Cornelius, spiritual Sanctification, by the gift of the holy Ghost, went before, and the Sacrament of regeneration in the laver of Baptism succeeded, yet notwithstanding, the ordinary gate and entrance into Christian life, is Baptism. S. Ambrose (siue Prosper) d. vocat Gentium, lib. 1. cap. 5 c Ambr. Origo verae vitae, veraequè iustitiae, in regenerationis est posita Sacramento, ut ubi homo 〈◊〉, ibi etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 veritas oriatur. . The beginning of true life and righteousness, is laid in the Sacrament of Regeneration, that look where man is new borne, there also the verity of Virtues themselves may spring. Neither do Protestants deny the virtue and efficacy of Baptism, to sanctify men, but according to the holy Scriptures, Eph. 5.26. Tit. 3.5. Gal. 3.27.1. Pet. 3.21. Acts 22.16. Rom. 6.3. and the ancient Church a Aug. ep. 157. Non est salsa etiàm in paruulorum Baptismate, Remissio peccatorum, nec 〈◊〉 dicitur, Ted veraciter agitur. Concil. Carthag. Ap. Aug. epist. 90. Quicunquè negat paruulos, per Baptismum Christi, à perditione liberari, & salutem percipere aeternam Anathema sit. Aug. sup. joh. tr. 80. unde tanta 〈◊〉 aquae ut corpus tangat, & cor abluat, etc. Id. Encherid. c. 42. Concil. Milevitan. ca 2. Proptèr hanc regulam Fidei, etiam paruuli qui nihil peccatorum in semetipsis adhuc committere potuerunt, ideò in peccatorum remissionem veracitèr baptizantur, ut in eyes regeneratione mundetur, quod generatione traxerunt. Chrys. sup. psal. 22. Leo, d. Nativit. serm. 4. Greg. Nissen. in Bapt. Christi. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , they teach and maintain, That this Sacrament is an instrument of Sanctification, and remission of sins. The Liturgy of the Church of England, in the form of administration of Baptism, hath these words: Seeing now D. B. that these children be regenerate, etc. We yield thee hearty thanks most merciful Father, that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this infant, with thy holy Spirit, to receive him for thine own child by adoption, etc. And master Hooker b Hooker. Eccles. pol. li. 5. sect. 59 pa. 132. & sect. 67. pa. 174. saith, Baptism is a Sacrament which God hath instituted in his Church, to the end, that they which receive the same, might thereby be incorporated into Christ, and so through his most precious merit, obtain as well that saving Grace of Imputation, which taketh away all former guiltiness, and also that infused divine virtue of the holy Ghost, which giveth to the powers of the soul their first disposition towards future newness of life. Zanchius c Zanch Miscel. li. 3 pa. 134. Cum Minister baptisat, oculis mentis in Coelum sublatis, cogito & credo, Christum quasi manu suaè Coelo demissa, filium meum sanguine suo in remissionem peccatorum aspergere, per manum illius heminis, quem video aqua caput Infantis aspergentem. hath these words: When the Minister baptiseth, I believe that Christ with his hand reached as it were from heaven, besprinkleth the child baptised with water, with his blood, to remission of sins. And in another place d Idem. d. Trib. Eloh. lib 7. pa. 266. Spiritus sanctus cum incubaret aquis illis primis 〈◊〉 mundi, easque 〈◊〉 & animaret, Symbolo quodam declaravit, quod facturus erat super aquas Baptismi à Christo instituendi, se nimirùm descensurum super Christum in specie Columbae, & mansurum super eum: & illum etiàm nunc incubare aquis nostri Baptismi easquè sanctificare, ut lavachrum sint regenerationis. Et qui baptizantur electi, illos per hunc Spiritum sanctificari, regenerari animari ad opera bona. , The holy Ghost moveth upon the water of Baptism, and sanctifieth the same, making it to be a laver of Regeneration. Calvin e Calvin. Instit. lib. 4. ca 15. §. 5. saith, Per Baptismum Christus nos mortis suae fecit participes, ut in eam inseramur, By Baptism, Christ hath made us partakers of his death, that we may be ingraffed into it. And in another place f Calvin. ibid. c. 16. §. 17 At quomodo in quiunt regenerantur In fantes, nec boni, nec mali cognitione praedicti? Nos autem respondemus, opus Dei, etiamsi captui nostro non subiaceat, non 〈◊〉 esse nullum. , If any man demand, How can infants which want understanding be regenerate? I answer, Although we are not able to fathom or unfold the manner of this Work of God, 〈◊〉 it followeth not from thence, that the same is not done. And the same author, with others of his part, maintain the former Doctrine concerning the efficacy of the Sacrament of Baptism, and they differ only from Lutherans and Pontificians. First, In that they restrain the grace of Sanctification only to the elect g Vide Beza in Act. Colloq. Monsbelgard. Tit. d. Bap. . Secondly, In that they deny external Baptism to be always effectual, at the very instant time when it is administered h Beza, ibid. . But our Adversaries must be over rigid, if they shall censure questions of this nature, which are touching circumstance, so hardly, as to make every such difference a fundamental error, especially because some among themselves (as the Master of the school reporteth a P. 〈◊〉. Sent. lib. 4. Dist. 4. Quamuis quidam diffiteantur, illis qui perituri sunt paruulis, in Baptismo dimitti peccata, innitentes illi verbo Aug. Sacramenta in solis electis efficiunt quod figurant? Jbid. G. Nec mireris rem aliquandò praecedere Sacramentum, cum aliquandò 〈◊〉 longè post sequatur: ut in illis qui fictè accedunt, quibus cum postea paenituerint incipiet Baptismus prodesse. ) affirm the same. Thirdly, whereas the Obiector addeth, that Protestants deny the necessity of Baptism for Infants, granting them Salvation without Baptism; he must understand, that necessity is either absolute, or else of precept and supposition. We verily maintain the latter necessity of Baptism, for the salvation of Infants, against the Pelagians and Anabaptists: and the contempt and wilful neglect of this holy Sacrament is damnable to such as are guilty of this contempt: and our Church b Canon. Eccles. Synod. Anglic. ann. 1603. Can. 69. If any Minister, etc. provideth diligently, that all Infants (if it be possible) may receive Baptism before they depart this life. But if it fall out inevitable c Tilman. d. 7. Sacram. ca 1. Non allegavit Deus potentiam suam (ut est communis Theologorum sententia) ità visibilibus Sacramentis, ut sine ipsis (modo absit coutemptus) saluare nequeat aut nolit, maximè quando impossibile est, 〈◊〉 ea suscipere possit. , that new borne babes, descending of Christian parents, cannot receive this Sacrament, not only Protestants, but the ancient Church itself, and discreeter Papists, have thought it more pious to hope of God's indulgence towards such infants, than to aggravate his vengeance with such rigour and extremity, as the Trent Fathers d Council, Trid. 〈◊〉. 6. ca 7. , and their disciples e Bellarm. d. Bapt. li. 1. ca 4. Cabrer. sup. 3. p. Thom. quest. 68 ar. 2. n. 7. Henriq. sum. Theolog. li. 2. c. 22. Qui citat alios. do. First, the ancient Church allotted only two seasons f Tom. 1. Council Ap. Surium. pag. 731. Socrat. hist. Eccles. li. 5. ca 21. Tert. d. Bapt. cap. 19 & d. Cor. Mil. c. 3. Hieron in 14. ca Zachar. & Epist. 61. ca 16. Leo Epist. 4. Vid. Durant. d. rit. Eccles. Cath. lib. 1. ca 19 n. 14 in the year for Baptism, which they could not in their charity have thus restrained to set times, if they had been persuaded as modern Papals are. Secondly, Gerson g Gerson. p. 3. serm. in Nativit. B. Mariae. , Biel h Biel. 4. Sent. Dist. 4. q. 2. , and Caietan i Caietan. in 3. Thom. q 68 ar. 1. & 2. 〈◊〉. venet. Anno 1547. In late editions the place is castrated. , with many other famous Pontificians k Tilman. Segeberg. d 7. Sacram. c. 1. p. 43. Thom. Elysius' Clip. Pior. Hom. Tit. 11. d. Bapt. ar. 3. Cassand. d. Bapt. Infant. p. 772. & 777. Eos quoquè infantes qui voto patentum, vel propinquorum Christo 〈◊〉 sunt, ac iàm nunc voto & animi 〈◊〉 Christo ad Baptismum oblati, si ante expirent quam externum signum adhiberi possit, non privari Baptismi gratia pie credi posse existimo. , affirm, That Infants departing this life without Baptism, may be saved by the special Grace of God, and by the prayers and faith of their parents. And the words of Thomas Elysius' l Elys. ibid. so. 102. Col. 2. , a late Pontifician, are very remarkable, saying, Opinio quam tenent Theologi plurimi, & Ecclesia secundum communem legem, est satis dura & onerosa, & non conformis preceptis Christi quae sunt suavia & levia. The opinion of many Divines, which is commonly holden by the Church (concerning the damnation of Infants, deceasing without Baptism) is over hard and rigid, and in no sort conformeable to the precepts of Christ, which are sweet and easy. And the same Author: Non est haeretica, cum non sit contra Fidem Catholicam, sea ei conformis, & maxim secundum fidei pietatem. This opinion (which propugneth the salvation of Infants unbaptized) is not heretical, for it is conformeable, and not repugnant to Catholic faith, and most conformeable to piety. To Elysius', I add Cassander, a Cass. d. Bapt. Infant. pa. 775. Videntur haec (quae dicta sunt de Bapt. Flaminis) add Infants quoque non incommode transferri posse. Nihil enim eis ad salutem praeter aquae tinctionem, deesse videtur, ad quam tinetionem, parentum & Ecclesiae voluntate & fide iam destinati sunt, cur igitur non hic quoque dicamus, supplere omnipotentis benignitatem, quod Sacramento desuerit, nisi Deum severiorem se Infantibus, quam adultis exhibere putemus? a moderate and peaceable Roman, in his Book d. Baptismo Infantum, which with many authorities and weighty Arguments, defendeth the same doctrine concerning Infants, against the common strain of rigorous Pontificians. And thus again, our brainsick Adversary fighteth against piety and humanity, objecting that against Protestants as a fundamental error, which moderate Romists themselves propugne, as the more safe and tolerable Doctrine. Jesuit. Seaventhly, Their error against Real Presence, which they deny, or else the main Article of the Creed, That Christ is still in heaven, at the right hand of his Father: for they will not allow a body in two places at once. ANSWER. THe more learned Jesuits themselves, acknowledge b Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 1. Greg. Vol. Tom. 4. Disp. 6. q. 3. punct. 1. Suares 3. q. 75. Disp. 46. Sect. 1. pag. 518. Caluinus, etc. Cum negaret corpus Christi esse realiter ac substantialiter praesens, in hoc Sacramento sed solum in coelo: nihilominus absolute concedebat, substantiam, & corpus Christi sumi & Manducari à fidelibus, ineffabili quodam 〈◊〉. , That Protestants believe the real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood, in the holy Eucharist; and our Divines deliver their Faith concerning the Sacrament in this manner a D. Bilson. BB. of Winchest. Diff. true Subject. par. 4. pag. 779. 〈◊〉, li. d. Spir. manned. omnes vere Christiani, sacrae Coenae Domini, ex ipsius instituto communicantes, manducant corpus & bibunt sanguinem jesu Christi spiritualiter, efficacitate Spiritus sancti. Junius, Animad. ad. 〈◊〉. d. Imag. cap. 9 n. 50. Eucharistiae Sacramentum 〈◊〉 proprie aut figurate. Proprie Sacramentum capit & panem 〈◊〉, & corpus 〈◊〉 Domini, ex instituto & veritate Christi. : God forbid we should deny, that the flesh and blood of Christ are truly present, and truly received of the faithful at the Lords Table: it is the Doctrine we teach others, and comfort ourselves with. The difference then between Papals and us, is not concerning the object, or matter received in and by the Sacrament, but touching the manner of Presence, and the manner of Receiving. Calvin b Calvin. Opusc. lib. Consens. inter Tigur. & Calu. 〈◊〉 nobis (in Coena) Christi corpus & sanguinem, nullus nostrum negat, qualis autem sit corporis & sanguinis Domini communicatio, queritur. saith thus concerning the difference, That the body and blood of Christ are communicated to us in the holy Eucharist, none of us deny; the question is, concerning the manner of this communication. The sacred Scripture neither expressly, nor yet by any formal consequence, teacheth the Doctrine of Transubstantiation (as some learned Papists c Caietan. in 3. part. Thom. q. 75. ar. 1. Edit. Venet. anno 1547. Petigian. 4. Dist. 10. q. 1. ar. 1 Et in hoc Caietanus 〈◊〉 defecit, qui eneruavit vim hulus argumenti 〈◊〉 Haereticos Sacramentarios. Dixerat enim in Comment. ar. 1. q. 75. 3. p. qui iussu Pij V. in Romana editione merito expunctus est, seclusa Ecclesiae Authoritate, verba illa ad veritatem hanc confirmandam non sufficere. themselves confess) neither is this Doctrine any part of the ancient Catholic Faith (as some other among them say d Suar. in 3. part. Tho. q. 75. ar. 5. Disp. 50. Sect 2. saith, That Scotus and Biel held so. .) The Fathers are against Transubstantiation: The mystical signs (saith Theodoret e Theod. Dial. lib. 2. ) do not, after sanctification, depart from their own nature, but remain in their former substance, figure, and form. The Sacraments which we receive of the body and blood of Christ (saith Pope Gelasius f Gelas. c. Nestor. & 〈◊〉. Bibl. Bign. to. 4. fo. 565. ) are a divine thing, and by them we are made partakers of the Divine Nature; and yet for all that, the nature of Bread and Wine ceaseth not to be. After consecration (saith S. Chrysostome g Chrysost. ad Caesar. Monach. ) it is delivered from the name of Bread, and reputed worthy to be called the Lords Body: notwithstanding, the nature of Bread still remaineth. The signs, as touching the substance of the creatures, are the same after consecration, which they were before (saith Bertram. h Bertram. li. d. corp. & sang. Dom. .) To the other part of the jesuits speech, Or else the main Article, etc. I answer, first, we cannot grant, That one individual Body may be in many distant places at one and the same instant, until the Papals demonstrate the possibility hereof by testimony of sacred Scripture, or by the ancient Tradition of the Primitive Church, or by apparent reason. And if they shall except, saying, That they make not Christ's body locally present in many places at once, but substantially a 〈◊〉. d. Sacram. d. Euchar. Disp. 4. q. 3. punct. 5. Respondeo, Christum existere sub speciebus Sacramentaliter modo, quodam admirabili & ineffabili, per modum substantiae spiritualis, secundum totam suam substantiam, quantitatem & membra, 〈◊〉 modo quo in coelis existit, ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis, non vero existere modo quantitativo, seu per extensionem 〈◊〉, in ordine ad locum. Thom. Aq. p. 3. q. 76. ar. 4. Nugnus, ibid. Coninch. ibid. n. 66. Henriq. Sum. lib. 8. cap. 25. Reginald. Greg. Val. Tolet. Philiarch. Petigian. Angles. Barth. ab Angelo, Victoria, Chamerota, Pezantius, Vasques, Viguer. Institut. Theol. d. Euchar. & alij. only; we say with Augustine b August. ep. 57 , Spacia locorum tolle corporibus & nusquam erunt, & quia nusquam erunt, nec erunt, Take away their places from bodies, and the bodies shall be no where; and if they shall be no where, they shall have no being. And in another place c August Serm in Mont. lib. 2. cap 9 etc. Faust. lib. 20. cap. 11. Secundum praesentiam corporalem, simul & in Sole, & in Luna, & in Cruse, esse non possit. , Corpora non possunt esse, nisi in loco; Bodies cannot be, but in some place. And again d August. sup. joh. 31. Vigil. c. Eutych. lib. 4. cap. 4. Fulgent. Trasimund. 〈◊〉. 2. cap. 5. Theod. Dial. lib. 2. Arnob. Adu. Gent. lib. 6. Quae sunt privata singulariaque natura, multa fieri 〈◊〉, simplicitatis suae integritate seruata. Nunquid esse decem omnibus in millibus, potis est unus, uno in tempore? non opinor. , Christus homo secundum corpus, in loco est, & de loco migrat, & cum ad alium locum venerit in eo loco, unde venit, non est; The man Christ is in a place, according to his Body, and he passeth from place to place; and when he cometh to another place, he is not in that place from whence he came. The Papals paralogize, saying, That because circumscription and locality are not of the essence of the body e 〈◊〉. d. Euchar. lib. 3. cap. 3. Non repugnat essentiae corporis, esse in uno & pluribus locis, cum sint omnia extrinseca, & posteriora ipsa corporis essentia. , therefore by the omnipotent power of God, the body may be without them. But if this illation be good, than we may likewise infer, That because to be created, made, or begotten, is not of the definition of humane bodies f Arist. 1. d. Coelo. Text. 2. Corpus est quod divisibile est secundum omnes mensuras. , therefore humane bodies, by the omnipotency of God, may be increate, and without beginning. The learned julius Scaliger g Scalig. d. Subtle. Exerc. 5. Sect. 6. speaketh in this manner: (Tametsi quod non includitur in definitione, abesse potest, à definito in definitione, non omne tamen abesse potest, à re definita. Propria enim quae vocantur, in definitione non ponuntur, à re tamen abesse nequeunt, cuius propria sunt, Etsi namque sunt natura suis subiectis posteriora, non tamen re, etc. Qua necessitate, coniunctum cum corpore locum, arbitror.) Although that which is not included in the definition, may be separated from the thing defined, in the very definition, yet it cannot be parted from the subject, or thing, which is defined: for the essential properties of things are not placed in the definition, yet they cannot be divided from the subject, whose properties they be: And although by posteriority of nature, they follow the subjects, yet indeed they are inseparable. And thus, place or circumscription is inseparably conjoined with a body. Secondly, The body of Christ in the Eucharist, hath magnitude, and quantity, as Aquinas a Aquin. 3. Quest. 76. ar. 4. substantia corporis Christi, realiter non denudatur a sua quantitate dimensiva, & ab aliis accidentibus. and other Schoolmen b Nugnus, ibid. Fides est (〈◊〉 ut oppositum sit erroneum) quod tota quantitas corporis Christi Domini, est in hoc Sacramento. commonly teach. But things which have magnitude, and quantity, are divisible, and limited and confined to a certain space, and measure, equal to their bulk and material substance: also they have distance of parts, and are extended at leastwise in order to themselves, and bounded by their own termination, compass, or surface, although nothing extrinsecall to them, should contain them outwardly (as is instanced in the highest Heavens c Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 3. cap. 5. Sententia communis Scholarum & Ecclesiae est, etc. Petigian. 4. d. 10. q. 1. ar. 4. Dub. 2. Est conclusio 〈◊〉 quod corpus Domini in Eucharistia, suam habet quantitatem, & est communis opinio omnium Theologorum. c Scalig. d. Subtle. Exerc. 5. Sect. 3. Primum Coelum est in loco, & sane in suo spacio quod occupat. Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 3. cap. 7. .) When Sophisters say, That Christ's body hath quantity, and not the manner (or nature of quantity) they deliver plain Chimaeras, and Fictions: For as a thing cannot be a substance, and want the proper nature and manner of a substance, so likewise a body cannot have quantity, and want the proper manner and condition of quantity d Durand. 4. Dist. 10. q. 2. Vbicunque est substantia in se realiter, ibi est substantialiter, quia est ab ea, iste modus inseparabilis, ergo 〈◊〉 ubicunque est quantitas in se realiter, ibi est 〈◊〉, quia iste modus est ipsi essentialis & inseparabilis, sed illud quod est quantitatiue alicubi, non potest comparari ad totum, vel 〈◊〉 partem consimiliter. . And whereas to elude so manifest Verity, Papists fly to the Omnipotency of God e Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 14. , saying, That although in nature it be impossible for one and the same body to be in many places at once; yet because God is omnipotent, he is able to effect it. We answer, first, it implieth a contradiction, That God should destroy the nature of a thing, the nature of the same thing remaining safe. Secondly, we say with Tertullian f Tertul. lib. c. Prax. Dei velle posse 〈◊〉, & non posse nolle. , The power of God (which we must stand of) is his Will, and that which he Will not, he cannot. And S. Augustine g August. d. Ciuit. Dei, lib. 5. cap. 10. Dicitur omnipotens, faciendo quod vult, non patiendo quod non vult, unde proprerea quaedam, non potest, quia est omnipotens. , Christ is said to be omnipotent, in doing what he Will. Nothing is impossible to God, because it exceedeth his power (saith S. Ambrose h Ambros. lib. 6. ep. 37. Quia ergo ei impossible: Non quod virtuti arduum, sed quod naturae 〈◊〉 contrarium. Impossibile istud, non 〈◊〉, sed virtutis, & maiestatis, quia veritas non recipit mendacium, nec Dei virtus, levitatis errorem. ) but some things are repugnant to his Will, and some things to his verity, Tit. 1. 2. And the impossibility of these things proceedeth not of Infirmity in God, but of Might and Majesty, because his Truth admitteth no Lie, nor his Power any Inconstancy. Because therefore Christ hath a true and perfect Body, both in regard of substance and matter, and also in respect of quantity a Occhagania, d. Sacram. tr. 1. d. Euchar. q. 20. Quantitas debet comitati corpus Christi, ubicunque sit. Extensio localis est propria passio quantitatis. Ex vi verborum constituitur corpus organicum. Quaeret aliquis qui fieri possit, ut modus ille extensionis localis, quem corpus Christi habet in Coelo, revera insit in corpore Christi, & à corpore reipsa, non seperetur (ut certum sane est) & tamen non sit cum corpore Christi in Eucharistia? , stature, measure, posture, proportion, etc. and because every true humane body, by the Ordinance of the Creator, (who hath form and constituted the several kinds and natures of things after a special manner) is determined to one individual place at one instant b Siluestran. in 4. Sent. Lect. 27. Vbi unica substantialis essentia, & unicum ubi, etc. Durand. 4. Dist. 10. q. 2. Si quantitas corporis Christi est in Sacramento per concomtantiam ad substantiam, non apparet possibile, qualiter ipsa tota possit esse 〈◊〉 praesens speciebus, & cuilibet parti specierum. Petigian. in 4. Dist. 10. q. 2. ar. 1. Si corpus Christi potest esse Sacramentaliter praesens multis locis, ergo omnibus, ergo ubique: si autem de fide est creaturam non posse esse ubique non solum est secundum praesentiam quantitativam, sed etiam secundum quamcunque praesentiam realem, etiam indivisibilem & Angelicam, nam etiam de 〈◊〉 spirituali creata, erit de fide, non posse esse ubique alioquin ex illa proprietate, non colligeretur divinitas filij & Spiritus Sancti. , and must also have distinction and division of parts, with a length, latitude, and thickness proportional to the quantity thereof: Therefore, except God himself had expressly revealed, and testified by his Word, that the contrary should be found in the humane body of Christ, and that the same should have one manner of corporal being in Heaven, and another in the holy Eucharist, at one and the same time; a Christian cannot be compelled to believe this Doctrine, as an Article of his Creed, upon the sole Voice and Authority of the Lateran or Trident Council. Some learned Papists confess ingeniously, That secluding the Authority of the Church, there is no written Word of God c Scotus, 4. Dist. 11. q. 3. Camerac. 4. q. 6. ar. 2. Licet ita esse non sequatur evidenter, ex Scriptura. Caietan. 3. q. 75. ar. 1. Non apparet ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aliquid, etc. sufficient to enforce a Christian to receive this Doctrine: And modern Pontificians are not able to confirm their present Tenet (to wit, That Christ's humane body may be in many ubities or places at one time, and that the whole body of Christ is circumscriptively in Heaven, and according to the manner of a Spirit d Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 2. & cap. 14. Non habet Christus in Eucharistia, 〈◊〉 existendi corporum, sed potius Spirituum. Ibidem, lib. 3. cap. 4. 〈◊〉 si quis contendat esse in loco tam 〈◊〉 quam 〈◊〉, id requirere ut res nullo modo sit alibi, dicere possumus dari tertrum modum existendi in loco, 〈◊〉 per solam. 〈◊〉, quomodo Deus est in loco, & hoc modo in loco 〈◊〉 ea corpora, quae per Divinam potentiam, 〈◊〉 sunt in 〈◊〉 locis. Ochagavia, d. Sacram. tr. 1. d. Euchar. q. 22. Deus est unus, & tamen est totus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 locis. Ibid. 4. 21. Christus existit in hoc Sacramento, quemadmodum Angelus existit in loco. 〈◊〉. in 4. d. 10. q. 1. Disp. 32. Sect. 5. Corpus Christi non est in Eucharistia, per modum quantitatis, sed potius per modum substantiae, Angelo potius accommodatum quam quantitati. , and of the Divine nature itself, without extension of parts, in every crumb of the Sacramental forms.) This Doctrine (I say) Papals are not able to confirm, by the unanimous Testimony and Tradition of the ancient Church. Therefore because the same is grounded, neither upon Scripture nor Tradition, they beg the question, when they allege Gods omnipotent power: for it must first of all, and that upon infallible Principles appear, That God will have it thus; before his omnipotency be pleaded a 〈◊〉 4. Dist. 10. q. 1. ar. 5. In illa Angelica enunciatione non erit impossibile apud Deum omne verbum, id duntaxat significari videtur, quod nihil, quod Deus dixerit se facturum, est illi impossibile. Petig. 4. Dist. 10. q. 1. ar. 3. Caietan & Soto dicunt, quod, etc. Non est sermo de impossibili, secundum divinam potentiam absolute, sed secundum potentiam ordinatam, secundum quam attenditur possibile velimpossibile, in Ecclesiasticis Mysterijs. , that he is able to make it thus. But the jesuits' Sophism, whereby he would entangle us within the snares of fundamental Error, when we deny Christ's bodily presence in many places at once, proceedeth in this manner: No body can be truly received in many places at once, unless the same be corporally present in many places at once. The Body of Christ is truly received in many places at once, to wit, in every place where the holy Eucharist is administered. Ergo: The Body of Christ is present in many places at once. I answer: The Mayor Proposition is denied; for there is a twofold manner of true Presence, and consequently of Receiving: one Natural, by the hand and mouth of the body: Another Mystical and Spiritual, by the delivery of the holy Ghost, and by the apprehension and action of the soul. First, The holy Ghost truly and verily reacheth and presenteth the Object, which is Christ's Body and Blood, crucified, and offered in Sacrifice for man's Redemption. d Euseh. Emissen. d. Consecrat. dist. 2. ca Quia corpus. Cum reverendum 〈◊〉 caelestibus cibis 〈◊〉 ascendis, sacrum Dei tui corpus, & sanguinem fide respice, honora, mirare, ment continge, cordis manu 〈◊〉, & maxim haustu interiore assume. Secondly, The reasonable soul being elevated by a lively and operative Faith, apprehendeth and receiveth the former object, as really, verily, and truly, after a spiritual and supernatural manner, as the body receiveth any corporeal or sensible object, after a natural manner, john 1. 12. Ephes. 3. 17. Fulgentius b Fulgent. d. 〈◊〉. & Grat. c. 〈◊〉. saith, Filium Dei unicum per fidem recipiunt: They receive the only Son of God by Faith. Our Saviour saith, That holy Believers receive the Flesh, and drink the Blood of Christ, john 6. 50, 53, 54. Credendo, by 〈◊〉 a August. sup. joh. tr. 25. Vt quid paras dentes & ventrem, crede & manducasti. Ibid. tr. 26. Credere in cum, hoc est manducare panem virium. Qui credit in 〈◊〉 manducat, invisibiliter saginatur. Jb. Qui manducat intus non foris, qui manducat in cord, non qui premit dente. , v. 35.47. Paschasius b Paschas. d. corp. & sang. Dom. c. 11.12.14. Spiritualiter sanguis potatur in mysterio. Totum spirituale est quod comedimus. Virtus fidei & intelligentiae, quae nihil de Christo dubitat, totum illud spiritualiter sapit & degustat. hath these words, The flesh and blood of Christ, etc. are truly 〈◊〉 by Faith, and understanding. It is not lawful to eat Christ with teeth. This Sacrament is truly his flesh and his blood, which man eateth and drinketh spiritually. 〈◊〉 saith, Hold ready the mouth of thy Faith, open the jaws of Hope, stretchout the bowels of Love, and take the Bread of life, which is the nourishment of the inward man. Eusebius Emisenus c Fulbert. Epist. ad Adeodat. 〈◊〉. Colon. to. 11. pa. 4. 〈◊〉 fidei, dilata fauces spei, viscera charitatis extend, & sum panem vitae, interioris hominis alimentum, etc. , When thou goest up to the reverend Altar, to be filled with spiritual meats by Faith, behold, honour, and wonder at the sacred Body and Blood of thy God, touch it with thy mind, take it with the hand of thy heart: and chiefly provide, that the inward man swallow the whole. Saint Ambrose e Ambros. praec. in praepar. ad Missam. , Comedat te cor meum panis Sancte, panis vive, panis munde, veni in cor meum, intra in animam meam: Let mine heart eat thee, oh holy Bread, oh living Bread, oh pure Bread, come into my heart, enter into my soul. Saint Augustine f August. sup. Psal. 103. Conc. 3. Est alius panis qui cor confirmat, quia panis est 〈◊〉. , There is another Bread which confirmeth the heart, because it is the Bread of the heart. And in another place g August. serm. d. corp. & sang. Dom. citatur à Beda 1. Cor. 10.16. Vita unicuique erit corpus & 〈◊〉 Christi, si quod in Sacramento visibiliret sumitur, in ipsa veritate spiritualiter manducetur, spiritualiter bibatur. , Then is the Body and Blood of the Lord life to each man, when that which is visibly taken in the Sacrament, is in very truth spiritually eaten, spiritually drunken. Now from the former Testimonies, it is manifest, that the Body and Blood of Christ, may truly and really be eaten and received, by operative Faith in the Sacrament. And if it be further objected, That spiritual eating and drinking of the Body and Blood of Christ, may be without the Sacrament: I answer, That the same is more effectually and perfectly accomplished in the Sacrament, than out of the Sacrament: because the holy Ghost, directly, and in special, when the Sacrament is delivered, exhibiteth the Body and Blood of Christ, as a pledge and testimony of his particular love towards every worthy Receiver; and the lively representation and commemoration of Christ's death and Sacrifice, by the mystical signs and actions, is an instrument of the Divine Spirit, to apply and communicate Christ crucified, and to increase and confirm the Faith, Charity, and piety of Receivers. Lastly, It is remarkable, that until the thousand years, and more, after Christ's Ascension a Petigian. in 4. Sent. d. 10. q. 1. ar. 1. p. 353. Constat ex Ecclesiasticis Historijs & ex his quae colliguntur ex sacris Concilijs & Doctrina Patrum per mille annos & amplius à passione Domini, nulla fuit excitata Haerefis in Ecclesia circa realem praesentiam, etc. , Orthodoxal Christians believed, that the Body and Blood of Christ were truly and really present, and delivered to worthy Receivers, in, and by the holy Eucharist, according to St. Paul's Doctrine, 1. Cor. 10.16. And that the same must be spiritually received by Faith, or else they profited nothing b August. sup. joh. tr. 27. Hoc est ergo manducare illam escam & illum bibere potum, in Christo manner & illum manentem in se habere. Ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo, & in quo non maner Christus procul dubio non manducat spiritualiter carnem eius, nec bibit eius sanguinem licer carnaliter & visibiliter premat Dentibus Sacramentum corporis & sanguinis Christi sed magis tantae rei 〈◊〉 ad iudicium sibi manducat, & bibit, quià immundus praesumpsit ad Christi accedere Sacramenta quae aliquis non digne sumit nisi qui mundus est. . But the manner of Presence (which some Moderns now obtrude) by Consubstantiation, or by Transubstantiation, was not determined as an Article of Faith c Aug. sent. prospcitatur à Bandino. sent. pag. 367. Si modum queris quo id fieri possit breviter dico mysterium fidei salubriter credi potest, investigari non potest. Cyril. in joh. lib. 4. cap. 13. Firmam fidem mysterijs adhibentes, nunquam in tam sublimibus rebus, illud quomodo aut cogitemus, aut proferamus. Ibid. c. 24. Quomodo id fiat, nec ment intelligere, nec lingua dicere possumus, sed silentio & firma fide id suscipimus. . And (to say nothing of Consubstantiation, the defence whereof, involueth them in many absurdities, which undertake for it) it is apparent, that Transubstantiation is a bastard plant, and upstart weed, never planted by the heavenly Father, but the same sprang up in the declining state of the Church, and it is perplexed and involved with so many absurdities and contradictions to Verity formerly received; that our Adversary was transported with partial folly, when he presumed to rank the refusal of this new d Suar. sup. 3. Tho. d. Euchar. disp. 50. sect. 2. pa. 602. Corrigendos esse Scholasticos qui hanc Doctrinam de conuersione hac, seu de Transubstantiatione non admodum antiquam esse dixerint. Inter quos fuit Scotus. Dist. 10. q. 1. § Quantum ergo ad istud Argum. & Dist. 11. q. 3. Gabr. lect. 41. in Can. and prodigious Article, among fundamental Errors. Jesuit. EIghtly, Their denying the Sacrament of Penance, and Priestly Absolution, the necessary means for remission of fins committed after Baptism. ANSWER. THe Obiector, by Penance, understandeth not Repentance, as it is a virtue (for Protestants believe true repentance, to be a second Table after spiritual Shipwreck a 〈◊〉. ep. 8. & ep. 47. & sup. Esa. ca 3. Tertul. d. Poen. c. 4. Ambros. ad virg. Laps. c. 4. , and a necessary means of remission of sins committed after Baptism b Calvin. Instit. li. 3. c. 3. n. 1. Non abs re summa Euangelij statuitur in poenitentia & remissione peccatorum. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Epist. 20. Viam & antegressionem esse dicimus ad petendum & percipiendum Christi beneficium. Zanch. d. Relig. c. 18. Thess. 1. Credimus ad veram justitiae Christi participationem, coquè ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum Christo necessariam esse poenitentiam, qua à peccatis & mundo muratione animi, ac voluntatis aversi, ad Christum convertamur, illi agglutinemur, ecquè 〈◊〉 peccatorum in ipso & ex ipso consequamur, iusticiaquè ipsius & Sanctitate 〈◊〉. Marc. 1.4, 15. Luc. 13.3.5. ) but he speaketh of Auricular Confession, according to the Tenet of the Trident Council, and priestly Absolution upon the same, affirming (but without any proof) that this kind of penance, is a Sacrament of the Gospel, and a necessary means to obtain remission of sins committed after Baptism. The Protestants, in their Doctrine, acknowledge that private confession of sins, made by penitent people to the Pastors of their souls, and particular absolution, or special application of the promises of the Gospel, to such as be penitent, are profitable helps of virtue, godliness, and spiritual comfort. The Augustane confession c August. Confess. d. Confess. Nàm & nos confessionem retinem' praecipuè propter absolutionem quae est verbum Dei, quod de singulis authoritate divina, pronunciat potestas clavium, qu are impium esset ex Ecclesia priuatam absolutionem tollere, nequè quid sit remissio peccatorum aut potestas 〈◊〉 intelligunt, si qui privatam absòlutionem aspernantur. Harmon. Confess. sect. 8. Chemnic. Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 2. pa. 221. Privata vero absolutio annunciat vocem Euangelij per quam non dubium est Deum efficacem & peccata 〈◊〉 illis qui vocem Euangelij in absolutione fide apprehendunt. In absolutione igitur Deus ipse per Ministerium 〈◊〉 elij 〈◊〉 peccata singulis credentibus atquè hoc modo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, testimonium est divinae absolutionis, undè conscientia testimonium habet sibi verè a Deo 〈◊〉 esse peccata. speaketh in this manner: We retain confession, especially because of absolution, which is God's word, applied to every private person; therefore it were an ungodly thing to remove private absolution out of the Church: neither do they duly consider, what is remission of sins, or the force of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, which contemn or repudiate private absolution. A reverend Bishop d D. 〈◊〉 BB. of Cou. & Liechf. protest appeal. li. 2. ca 16. sect. 1. of our time, delivereth the Doctrine of our Church in this manner: The power of absolution in general and particular, is professed in our Church, where both in the public service is proclaimed pardon and absolution upon all penitents, and a private applying of absolution unto particular penitents, by the office of the Minister. And concerning private confession, Bishop jewel e jewel. Def. Apolog. 2. p. c. 7. Diuis. 2. pa. 192. Zanch. d. Oper. Red. p. 757. Petr. Martyr. loc. 〈◊〉. Class. 3. c. 8. §. 28. Gerhard. loc. come. tom. 3. d. Poen. n. 99 Privata coràm Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 confessio, quam auricularem vocant, quamuis non habeat expressum acspeciale mandatum, ac 〈◊〉 non sit absolutae necessitatis, tamen cum plurimas praestet utilitates paulo post enumerandas, ac disciplinae Ecclesiasticae pars sit non postrema, publico Ecclesiae consensu recepta, ideo nequaquam temerè vel negligenda, vel abroganda, sed piè, ac in 〈◊〉 Dei timore, praesertim ab illis qui ad sacram Synaxin. accedunt usurpanda. saith, Abuses and errors being removed, and the Priest being learned, we mislike no manner of confession, whether it be public, or private. His most excellent Majesty, our gracious and religious king james, in his Meditation upon the Lord's Prayer, hath these words, For my part with Calvin (Institut. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sect. 12.) I commend Confession, even privately to a Churchman, and I wish with all my heart it were more in custom among us than it is, as a thing of excellent use, especially of preparing men to receive the Sacrament. The difference then between Papals and us, in this question, is not about the thing itself, considered without abuses a Cassand. Consult. ar. 11. Credo de hac re controversiam nullam fuisse futuram, si non salutatis haec confitendi medicina, ab imperitis & importunis medicis, multis inutilibus traditiunculis infecta, & contaminata fuisset, quibus conscientijs quas extricare & levare debebant, laqueos iniecerunt, & tanquàm tormentis quibusdam excarnificarunt. Quaproptèr 〈◊〉 rei occuretur, si pij tantùm, etc. Beat. Rhenan. sup. Tertul. d. 〈◊〉. praef. Thomas ab Aquino, & Scotus homines nimium arguti, confessionem hodie talem rediderunt, ut johannes 〈◊〉 gravis ac sanctus Theologus, qui 〈◊〉 annis argentorati concionatus est, apud amicos suos 〈◊〉 testatus sit, iuxtà illorum deuteroseis, impossibile esse confiteri. Concil. Colon. d. Poen. so. 158. Interim tamen non probamus hanc Exomologesim, hominum spinis & scrupis sic 〈◊〉, ut vix quisquam à Sacerdote discedat tranquilla conscientia, quam magis veterum exemplo expediri convenerat. , but concerning the manner, and also the obligation and necessity thereof. First, they require of all persons, being of age, a private and distinct confession of all and every known mortal sin, open and secret, of outward deed, and inward consent b Concil. Trid. Sess. 14. c. 5. Canon. 4. & Can. 7. Oportere à 〈◊〉 bus omnia peccara mortalia, quorum post diligentem 〈◊〉 discussionem, conscientiam habent in confession recenseri, etiàmsi occultissima illa sint, & tantum a 〈◊〉 duo ultima Decalogi praecepta commissa, etc. , together with the circumstances c Pretereà eas circumstantias, etc. quae peccati speciem mutant, etc. Navar. Enchir. c. 2. thereof, though obscene and odious to Christian ears, to be made at the least annually d Ibid. Can. 8. & Extr. d. Poen. & Remiss. c. 12. Omnis 〈◊〉 sexus. to some Roman Priest authorised e Trid. Concil. ibid. ca 7. . And they affirm the same to be simply necessary, either in act, or in desire f Ibid. ca 4. Reconciliationem ipsae contritioni sine Sacramenti voto, quod in illa includitur, non esse ascribendum. , by divine precept g Ibid. c. 6. Ad salutem necessariam esse iure divino. for the obtaining remission of sins committed after Baptism. And they teach, that this confession, and absolution upon it, is one of the proper Sacraments h Ibid. Can. 1. Si quis dixer it in Catholica Ecclesia, poenitentiam non esse vere & proprium Sacramentum, etc. of the New Testament, having an operative virtue, to confer Grace, and to change Attrition i Ibid. ca 4. Medin. Cod. d. Confess. tr. 2. q. 39 Multorum sententia est, & probabilis, quod sine contricione, possit quis absolui modo attritus sit. 〈◊〉. Addit. ad. 3. par. Tho. q. 6. ar. 1. Dub. 1. Cum confessione sufficit 〈◊〉 ad iustificationem. Guil. Rubeo. 4. Dist. 18. q. 1. Confitens de peccatis suis, modicum dolens, per sacramentum poenitentiae sibi ministratum à Sacerdote eum absoluente, consequitur remissionem culpae. , or imperfect sorrow for sins past, into contrition. Secondly, our Tenet is, that auricular confession is not absolutely necessary to remission of sins after Baptism, neither is the same generally in respect of all persons k Vasques. in. 3. to. 4. q. 90. ar. 1. dub. 1. n. 3. 〈◊〉 Oxomensis D. Salmant. Docuit confessionem Sacramentalem, non esse in praecepto iis qui iàm vere contriti à peccatis suis iustificati sunt. , commanded or imposed by divine law, and the rigorous urging thereof according to the Popish Doctrine a Cassand. Consult. d. Confess. ar. 11 At quod, subijciunt enumerationem omnium delictorum non esse necessariam, quadam ex parte recte habet, videlicet, si intelligatur de ignotis, & non occurrentil us peccatis: item si intelligatur de nimis anxia inquisitione omnium 〈◊〉 quae in multis conscieniae carnificinam gignit, quam nemo moderatus approbat. Concil. Colon. d. Poen. 10. 158. Non aliter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hanc confessionem necessariam, quam fecerunt veteres illi patres, hoc est, necessariam illis qui habent gravatam conscientiam nimirùm quibus Concilio, consolation & absolutione est opus. , is not Orthodoxal or Catholic Faith: neither is penance a Sacrament of the new Testament, like unto Baptism, and the holy Eucharist. The true ends of private confession are these which follow: First, to inform, instruct, and council Christian people in their particular actions. Secondly, if they be delinquents to reprove them, and make them understand the danger of their sin. Thirdly, to comfort those that are afflicted, and truly penitent, and to assure them of remission of sins by the word of absolution. Fourthly, to prepare people, to the worthy receiving of the holy Communion. And if private confession be referred and used to these ends, it is a work of godly discipline, consonant to the holy Scripture, and anciently practised by the Primitive Church b Orig. in Luc. Hom. 17. Vnde & nos si peccauerim', debem' dicere, peccatum meum notum feci tibi, & iniquitatem meam non abscondi, dixi annunciabo iniusticiam meam contrà me Domine: si enim hoc fecerimus, & revelaverimus peccata nostra, non solum Deo, sed & his qui possunt mederi vulneribus nostris atquè peccatis, delebuntur peccata nostra ab eo qui dixit. Ecce delebo ut nubem iniquitates tuas, & sicut caliginem peccata tua. Idem. in Psalm. 31. Fortassis (inquit) sicut hi qui habent inclusam intus escam indigestam, aut humoris aut flegmatis, stomacho graviter & molestè convenientia, si vomuerint relevantur, ità etiàm fi qui peccaverunt, siquidém retinent in se peccatum, intrinsecus urgentur, & propemodum suffocantur à flegmate vel humour peccati, si autem ipse sui accusator fiat, dum accusat semetipsum, & confitetur, simul evomit & delicta, atquè omnem morbi digerit causam. Hieron. sup. cap. 10 Eccles. Si quem serpens Diabolus occultè momorderit, & nullo conscio eum peccati, veneno infecerit, si tacuerit qui percussus est, & non egerit poenitentiam, nec vulnus suum fratri, & magistro voluerit confiteri, magister qui linguam habet ad curandum facilè ei prodesse non poterit. Si enim erubescat aegrotus vulnus medico confiteri, quod ignorat medicina non curate. Aug. sup. Psalm. 66. Tuam iniquitatem confitere, gratiam Dei confitere, te accusa illum glorifica te reprehend, illum lauda, ut & ipse veniens inveniat te punitorem tui, ut exhibeat se tibi saluarorem tuum. Quid enim time 'tis confiteri, qui 〈◊〉 have viam in omnibus gentibus. Quid timetis confiteri, & in confession vestra cantare canticum nowm, cum omni terra. In omni 〈◊〉 in pace Catholica confiteri times Deo, ne confessum damnet? Si non confessus lates, non confessus damnaberis. Times cofiteri, qui non confitedo esse non 〈◊〉 occultus, damnaberis tacitus, qui posses liberari confessus. . Bishops and Ministers of the Church are Shepherds, Stewards, and Overseers of God's people committed to their charge, 1. Pet. 5. 1, 2. Acts 20. 28. They have received the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and power to lose and bind sinners, Math. 16. 19 Math. 18. 18. john 20. 23. They have power to direct and govern their whole flock, and every sheep and member of the same, in things concerning their Salvation. The people are subject to them, in such offices and actions as concern their spiritual state, Heb. 13. 17. 1. Thess. 5. 12. And if Christian people must confess and acknowledge their faults one to another, james 5. 16. then also when there is cause, why should they not do the same to the Pastors of their souls c Calvin. Instit. lib. 3. c. 4. n. 12. Cum omnes mutuò nos debemus 〈◊〉, & in fiducia divinae misericordiae confirmare, videmus tamen Ministros ipsos, ut de remissione peccatorum, certas reddant conscientias, testes eius ac sponsores constitui. Officij sui vnusquisquè fidelium esse 〈◊〉, etc. ut ad se sublevandum privata confessione apud Pastorem suum utatur. Sistant se pastori oves, quoties sacram coenam participare volunt. ? But the precise and strict Law of Confession, imposed upon all Christians as a necessary means of remission of sins a Francis. Siluius. Com. in 3. par. Tho. d. Confess. q. 6. ar. 1. De necessitate praecepti, non potest esse dubium. Illo autem supposito, dicendum est quod necessaria 〈◊〉 necessitate 〈◊〉, quià non est aliud remedium, consequendi veniam peccatorum mortalium à Baptismo commissorum, quam per confessionem Sacramentalem re vel voto 〈◊〉. Nugnus. 〈◊〉 3. part. Tho d. Poen. q. 6. ar. 1. Dub. 2. Confessio 〈◊〉 ad salutem 〈◊〉 medij, pro his qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 post Baptismum. , is neither commanded in the New Testament, nor hath warrant from the Primitive Church. First, It was not instituted, or practised, Matth. 3. 6 b Bellar. d. Poenit. li. 1. ca 11. Resp. Poenitentiam quam Christus & Baptista praedicarunt, ideo Sacramentum non fuisse, quià desinit pars Sacramenti potissima, 〈◊〉 verbum absolutions, confessioni peceatorum adiunctum. Non habemus exemplum Sacramenti poenitentiae, in Acts Baptistae, & antè Christi resurrectionem. Suares. in 3. 〈◊〉. 4. disp. 35. sect. 1. Sed haec & fimilia 〈◊〉 se sumpta, solum probant, generalem necessitarem 〈◊〉, & indifferentia sunt ad poenitentiam requisitam, antè vel post Baptismum ut sensit 〈◊〉 Concil. Trid. Sess. 14. c. 1. : for that Confession was before Baptism, and not at the Sacrament of Penance; and so great a multitude, as is mentioned in that Text, could not within so small space of time make special enumeration of all their sins, and no private absolution was used. Secondly, It cannot be proved from Act. 19 17. because this Confession was open, and not secret; the same was voluntary, and not commanded; it was performed once only, and not annually, or often every year, and no Absolution was given after it. And Cardinal Caietan c Caietan. sup. Act. 19 Quemadmodum ad Baptismum Iohannis concurrebant confitentes peccata sua (ut dicitur Marci primo) ita modo describuntur confitentes facta sua, procul dubio in genere aut publice. 〈◊〉 enim fuit confessio Sacramentalis, sed professio poenitentiae, vitae praeteritae. granteth, that it was no Sacramental Confession, but only an open profession of their former wicked life. Thirdly, It was not appointed, jam. 5. 16. For our Adversaries acknowledge, That it is not certain that S. james speaketh of Sacramental Confession d Caietan. sup. jam. 5. Non hic est sermo de Sacramentali confessione ut patet ex eo quod dicit, confitemini invicem, Sacramentalis enim confessio non fit invicem, sed Sacerdotibus tantùm, sed de 〈◊〉 qua mutuo fatemur, nos peccatores ut oretur pro nobis, & de confession hinc inde erratorum pro mutua 〈◊〉 & reconciliatione. Scot 4. Dist. 17. q. 1. 〈◊〉. 1. Gabr. 4. Dist. 17. q. 1. Vasques. in 3. tom. 4. q. 90. ar. 1. dub 1. nu. 26. Quamuis Hugo. vict. & 〈◊〉. d. Confess. Sacramentali illum locum intelligunt, tamen non est ità concors sententia, multi enim alij de confessione quae invicem fieri debet inter fratres ut 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉. Myth. 〈◊〉 4. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Nequè enim consentaneum videtur, confessionem jacobum promul ass, in 〈◊〉 illis 〈◊〉 alterutium peccata vestra. Yrebarn. 4. dist. 17. Dico praeceptum confessionis non haberi ex asserto jacobi. Aureolus. 4. dist. 17. q. vnic. Ad 〈◊〉 illam jacobi dicendum est, quod loquitur de mutua obligatione, qua 〈◊〉 est obligatus, ad 〈◊〉 alteri, de offensa. , Rhemists, jam. 5. Annot. 10. And the persons to whom S. james commands Confession to be made, are not only Priests (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Confess, or acknowledge your faults one to another) but also any other person, whom one hath wronged and offended, or from whom he may receive counsel, or comfort. Fourthly, Neither was Sacramental Confession instituted, joh. 20. 23. because no mention is made in that Text of auricular Confession. And the power granted to Ministers of the Gospel, to apply remission of sins, by Preaching, Sacraments, and Absolution, may be exercised, and also be effectual in contrite people, upon the inward confession of sins to God himself, and their lively faith in Christ jesus, and upon their Baptism, Act, 3.19. & 26.18. Matth. 11.28. without private disclosing and manifesting their secret offences to man. If the Adversaries shall object, None can forgive sins by a judicial Act, until they know them, and have them revealed. But Priests, by commission from Christ, forgive sins by a judicial Act; and therefore sins must by confession, be revealed and made known unto them. I answer, That he which properly and directly pardoneth sins by a judicial Act, aught to know them; and thud God himself forgiving sins, knoweth them, Psal. 69.6. But they which forgive sins declaratively a Lombard. 4. dist. 18. 〈◊〉. Non hoc Sacerdotibus concessit, quibus tamen tribuit potestatem soluendi & ligandi, id est oftendendi homines ligatos, vel solutos. In soluendis culpis vel retinendis ita operatur Sacerdos Euangelicus, & iudicat 〈◊〉 olim legalis in illis qui contaminati erant lepra, quae peccatum signat. Ambros. d. spir. sanct. li. 3. ca 19 Peccatum nemo condonat, 〈◊〉 unus Deus. Homines in remissione peccatorum Ministerium suum exhibent, non ius alicuius potestatis exercent. Neque enim in suo, sed in Patris & Filij & Sp. Sancti nomine peccata dimittuntur; isti rogant, Divinitas donat. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. joh. 20. Vis & efficacia Remissionis, non in Discipulis sed in Deo remitrente. , and by publishing Gods judicial Act, like as a Crier pronounceth the sentence of a judge, and by applying the Word and Sacraments to penitent persons (upon the holy and worthy receiving whereof, the holy Ghost himself conferreth the grace of Remission) may perform that which belongeth to their office, without distinct knowledge of all the particular sins, whereof the penitent person hath repent himself in the sight of God b Medin. Cod. d. poenit. tr. 2. q. 2. Saepissime Deus 〈◊〉 peccata antequam à 〈◊〉 remitrantur. Quamprimus, Quis intus de peccatis propter Deum conteritur, etiamsi de confession vocali nil sciat nihilque memoriae eius occurrat; illico consequitur à Deo, remissionem omnium mortalium. Ochagania. d. Sacram. poenit. tr. 2. q. 1. Ex praedicto loco Scripturae joh. 20 Aliqui sic colligunt necessitatem confessionis, quia Sacerdotes ibi 〈◊〉 iudices, & per consequens debent cognoscere causam, etc. Verum hac ratione non potest colligi necessitas confessionis, etc. Sacerdotes sunt judices Ordinarijrespectu poccarorum venialium & tamen non est preceptum 〈◊〉 confitendi. : as appeareth in Baptism, and general Confession, joined with Contrition. And when a Priest applieth the word of Absolution, he knoweth not whether the person confessing his sins, performeth the same truly, and with contrition of heart, or not. john Medina c Medin. ibid. Esto quod illinc colligeretur necessitas confitendi Sacerdotibus non tamen ostenditur quod fit necessarium in partitulari singula confiteri, etiam occulta cordis peccata, quod peccator in genere se peccatorem coram Sacerdote esse cognoscat & confiteatur, & ab ipso Sacerdote, ita in genere absoluatur. , Cardinal Caietan d Caietan. sup. joh. 20. Fateor institutionem Sacramenti poenitentiae, hic non habere praeceptum. , and jansenius e jansenius Harm. Euang. cap. 147. Quoniam Remissio peccatorum impendi potest sine praevia confessione illa speciali, ex 〈◊〉 quod Sacerdotibus hoc 〈◊〉 potestas est collata remittendi aut retinendi peccata, non mox consequitur specialem peccatorum confessionem esse necessariam. , acknowledge the weakness of this Argument, to prove Auricular Confession. And Vasques saith, That a man can hardly find, among those which maintain Auricular Confession, out of the place of joh. 20. 23. which do effectually conclude the same from thence a Vasques, 3. to. 4. q. 90. ar. 〈◊〉. Dub 2. Inter alios qui plane fatentur ex illis verbis joh. 20. Necessitatem Confessionis, 〈◊〉 invenies qui efficaciter inde deducat. . joh. Medina treating of Auricular Confession, saith b Medin. Cod. d. Poen. 〈◊〉. 2. q. 2. Ad huius 〈◊〉 probationem 〈◊〉 Doctores 〈◊〉 insudarunt. , The Roman Catholic Doctors have laboured till they sweat again, to find proof for this verity: He might well have said, They laboured to as good purpose, as the man who sought to find Nodum in Scirpo, or, A Needle in a Bottle of Hay. Mich. Palacius c Palacius, 4. Dist. 17. pag. 240. Auxij sunt admodum Theologi in investigandis 〈◊〉 locis, aut 〈◊〉 rationibus, qua hoc esse iuris Divini evincant. Et miratu dignum, quanta sit de hac re concertatio, quamque sibi male conveniant. saith, Divines are perplexed in finding places of Scripture, or other convincing arguments, to prove Auricular Confession to be of Divine Institution; and it is worthy admiration, what contention is about this matter, and how badly Authors agree concerning the same. Our Adversary's labour tooth and nail, to prove from the former Text in S. john, That Priests exercise a judicial Power, when they absolve sinners. But if this were granted, they gain nothing, for this judicial power is exercised, according to the word of Christ: And if that word absolve contrite and penitent persons, upon internal Confession to God himself d Chrysost. in Psal. 50. 〈◊〉. 2. Quia ex animo poenituit, etc. confessus est Deum, esse Christum, meruit Paradisi, esse Colonus. Ibid. Peccata tua dicito, ut 〈◊〉 illa. Si confunderis 〈◊〉 dicere quia peccasti, dicito ea quotidie in 〈◊〉 tua, non dico ut confitearis conseruo tuo ut exprobret, dicito Deo qui curate 〈◊〉 Ibid. Reminiscons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 effunde lachrymas, & poteris in lecto tuo positus, ea delere. Chrysolog. Serm. 84. 〈◊〉 Petrus (Acts 2.) peccata, & toto cum gaudio 〈◊〉 poenitentes. , and upon their general Confession before men, without secret Confession; than it followeth not, That because a Priest exerciseth a judicial power, when he absolveth, Ergo, Penitents must confess all their known sins. A penitent person may have mortal sins, which he remembreth not, Psal. 19.13. and when upon profession of his repentance he is absolved, those sins are pardoned e Paludan. 4. d. 17. q. 2. n. 8. Culpa mortalis, non potest remitti sine nova infusione 〈◊〉: Sed confessio Sacram. 〈◊〉 valet ad 〈◊〉: quia ex quo homo facit quod potest, confitendo 〈◊〉 in speciali de 〈◊〉, & in generali de 〈◊〉: Absolutio sequens, ab omnibus 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 Praecessit 〈◊〉. , Psal. 103.3. and the Priest, in giving Absolution, exerciseth a judicial Act (according to the Popish Tenet) and yet those fins are not disclosed, or manifested unto him. Secondly, The present Romish Doctrine, concerning the absolute necessity of Auricular Confession, is not Catholic. The Greek Church, both of ancient and later times, rejected the same, as appeared by Nectarius a 〈◊〉. Hist. Eccles. l. 5. c. 19 〈◊〉. li. 7. c. 16. Trip. Hist. li. 9 c. 35. Niceph. li. 12. c. 28. 〈◊〉. d. Sacram. poenit. tr. 2. q. 1. nu. 12. Res haec multu facessit negotij Theologis nostris. Quidam fatentur Historiam veram esse. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Th. Wald. Much. Palacius. Quidan negant Latinus Latinius nomine: brevem disputationem edidit Romae, anno 1587. ut ostenderet hanc Socratis Historiam fabulosam esse, quod meo iudicio nullo firmo fundamento docet. Refert Vasques 3. to. 4. q. 90. ar. 1. Dub. 3. , S. Chrysostome b Chrys. sup. Heb. Hom. 31. & sup. Psal. 59 & Hom. 5. d. Incomprehensib. Dei naturae. , and by the testimony of learned Papists, which affirm the same, concerning that Church. The Gloss upon Gratian, saith c Gloss. d. paenit. Dist. 5. c. 1. Necessaria est confessio in mortalibus apud nos, apud Graecoes non, quia non emanavit apud illos Traditio talis. , Auricular Confession is not necessary among the Grecians. Greg. Val. Lib. 2. d. Miss. cap. 4. saith, That Panormitan and Gerson maintained, that secret Confession was not necessary. Andrea's Vega d Vega. d. justif. li. 13. c. 28. , Very many learned Catholics have doubted of this necessity of Confession, by Divine Law. Maldenat. e Mald. sum. q. 18. ar. 4. Suares. 3. to. 4. Disp. 35. Sect. 1. De hac confessione est tertia sententia extremè contraria, quae negat in lege gratiae datum esse à Christo Domine proprium Divinum praeceptum huius confessionis, quam sententiam non solum docent Haeretici, etc. Sed etiam graues Theologi. Hugo Victor. Alex. Halens. Bonaventura, etc. Cum negent confessionem esse expresse institutum a Christo a fortiori negant esse praeceptam. sum. q. 18. ar. 4. There be also among Catholics, which think there is no Divine Precept touching Auricular Confession, to wit, all the Interpreters of the Decrees, and also Scotus. B. Rhenanus f Rhenan. in Tertul. d. paenit. Praefat. and Petrus Oxomensis g Refert Alphons. Castro. v. Confess. Vasques. 3. q. 90. ar. 1. Dub. 1. denied the said Confession to be of Divine Institution. And Gratian h Grat. d. Poen. d. 1. cap. 89. Quamuis. Quibus Authoritatibus vel quibus rationum firmamentis utraque sententia satisfactionis & confessionis innitatur, in medium breviter exposuimus. Cui autem harum potius adhaerendum sit. Lectoris iudieio reseruatur. Vtraque enim, fautores habet sapientes, & Religiosos. 〈◊〉. sup. 5. lib. Decretal. d. Poen. & Remiss. cap. 12. Omnis utriusque, n. 18. Multum mihi placet illa opinio (Gloss. Gratian. d. Poen. dist. 5.) Quia non est aliqua authoritas aperta quae innuat, Deum seu Christum, aperte instituisse, confessionem fiendam Sacerdoti, pag. 256. himself having disputed the Question pro & con, concludeth in this manner, I leave it to the Readers choice, which opinion to follow, because each opinion (to wit, the one holding Confession to be of Divine Institution, and the other Ecclesiastical) hath fautors, both wise and religious. Now if Auricular Confession is not certainly and infallibly of Divine Institution, than it is impossible for the same, conjoined with Absolution, to be a Sacrament; because Sacraments of the New Testament were immediately instituted by Christ, and have their institution, matter, form, visible signs, and promises, expressly and manifestly delivered and appointed in the Scripture of the New Testament. From hence I argue: If that which Romists term Sacramental Penance, have no word of Institution, no visible and corporeal Element i August. sup. joh. tr. 80. Accedat verbum ad Elementum & fit Sacramentum. Ibid. Visibile verbum. Idem, c. Faust. lib. 19 cap. 16. Visibilia invisibilis Gratiae signa. Idem, Serm. d. Bapt. ad Neophyt. Sacramentum dicitur, quia aliud videtur, aliud intelligitur. Quod videtur, habet speciem corporalem, quod intelligitur habet fructum spiritualem. , no express form, or word of Consecration, neither any Sacramental effect appropriated unto it by Christ and his Apostles; then the same is no Sacrament of the New Testament. But all and every of these Conditions are wanting in Popish Penance: Ergo, The same is no Sacrament of the New Testament. If Penitency be not affirmed by the Fathers of the Primitive Church to be a Sacrament properly taken; then, that the same is such in our days, is not Catholic Doctrine. But learned Pontificians have narrowly searched every Sentence of Antiquity concerning Penitency, and cannot yet produce one place, where the same is plainly and expressly affirmed to be one of the Sacraments of the New Testament, properly taken, to wit, such as is Baptism, and the holy Eucharist. Therefore the present Doctrine of Romists, concerning Penitency, That the same is a Sacrament, is neither grounded upon the Scripture, nor the perpetual Tradition of the Church: And our Romish Adversary is the eight time August. Confess. lib. 10. cap. 3. Quid mihi est cum hominibus, ut audiant confessiones meas, quasi ipsi sanaturi sint omnes languores meos? Curiosum genus ad cognoscendam vitam alienam, desidiosum ad corrigendam suam. guided by a lying Spirit, when he accuseth us of fundamental Error, because we deny Popish Penance to be a Sacrament. Jesuit. NInthly, Their denying the Catholic Church, expressly set down in the Creed, which of all the other Articles, is with greatest danger denied: For the standing out against this, makes men Heretics; and without erring against this, no man is guilty of Heresy: whatsoever Doctor Field to the contrary saith, That an errant against a fundamental point, is an Heretic, though he err without pertinacy, whereof he brings not any syllable of proof. And yet his Doctrine is against the whole consent of Divines, and expressly against S. Augustine, Aug. d. Bapt. c. Don. lib. 4. ca 6. [It should be, ca 16.] who saith, That a man holding with Photinus, whose errors were most fundamental, against the Trinity and the Godhead of Christ, thinking he holds Catholic Doctrine, is not yet an Heretic, till warned that he holds against the Catholic Church, he chooseth to persevere in his error. ANSWER. We believe steadfastly the Article of the Apostles Creed, concerning the Catholic Church; and deny only the false sense, which Romists impose a Stapl. Relect. contr. 4. d. potest. Eccles. q. 3. ar. 2. in Symbolo profitemur, Credo Ecclesiam 〈◊〉. etc. Hoc est credo omnia quae Deus per Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 docet. Canus, Loc. 〈◊〉. lib. 4. cap. 4. Bannes, 2.2. q. 1. ar. 1. pag. 10. 〈◊〉, sum. pag. 237. Omnis Baptisatus sanctam Ecclesiam explicite tenetur credere, scil. quod sit verax & infallibilis, in proponendis nobis ea, quae sunt fidei, Rhem. 1. Tim. 3. Sect. 9 , and the absurd inferences which they draw from this Article. And whereas the jesuit affirmeth, That this Article is with greatest danger denied, because the standing out against it, makes men Heretics, etc. Both the Proposition itself, thus rawly and confusedly delivered, and the Confirmation, are false. The Article of the Catholic Church, is not the most fundamental and prime Article of the Creed; for many other Articles are, about a more principal and excellent Object, to wit, immediately concerning God the Creator, and Christ jesus the Saviour and Redeemer, and God the Holy Ghost, etc. whereas the Object of the Article in question, is concerning the Creature. The prime foundation of Christianity, is Christ himself, 1. Cor. 3. 11. 1. Pet. 2.6. The Church is the servant, and Spouse of Christ, the House of God, whereof Christ himself is the grand Lord, and Builder. But we have learned in the Gospel, That the servant is not greater than his Lord, joh. 13. 16. Hereupon S. Augustine, Enchyrid. cap. 56. Good order requireth, that the Church be placed after the Trinity, as an House after the Inhabiter, his Temple after God, and the City after the Founder b August. Enchir. cap. 56. Rectus ordo poscebat, ut Trinitati subiungeretur Ecclesia, tanquam habitatori 〈◊〉 sua, & Deo Templum suum, & conditori Civitas sua. . And if the Adversary reply, That although it be a less Article, in regard of the Object; yet the denial thereof is of greater consequence, because it maketh men guilty of Heresy, etc. I answer, Granting that the denial of the whole Article, being rightly expounded, maketh men Heretics: but I deny, that a Christian which believeth this Article is no Heretic a Bellarm. d. Pontif. li. 4.7. Pontifex si posset esse haereticus, solum erit negando aliquam veritatem antea definitam. Non potest, autem esse haereticus, dum ipse aliquid novi definite, tunc enim non 〈◊〉 contra aliquid definitum ab Ecclesia. , if he believe and maintain any Error, against the plain Doctrine of the holy Scripture, which he knoweth, or which he is bound, Necessitate 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉, to know, believe, and maintain. Saint Hierom, upon the Galathians, saith b Hieron. sup. Gal. c. 5. 〈◊〉 Scripturas aliter intelligit, quam sensus spirit' Sancti flagitat quo conscripta est, licet de Ecclesia non recesserit, tamen Haereticus appellari potest. , Whosocuer (to wit, in weighty points) understandeth the Scriptures, otherwise than the sense of the holy Ghost whereby they were written, requireth, may be called an Heretic, although he depart not out of the Church. Tertullian saith c Tertul. d. vel. virg. c. 1. Quodcunque adversus veritatem sapit, hoc erit Haeresis. , Whatsoever (in points Divine and Sacred) is repugnant to Verity, is Heresy. Albertus saith d Albert. 4. Sent. Dist. 13. ar. 39 Ille est Haereticus, qui sententiaru suam sequitur & non sententiam Scripturarum. , He is an Heretic, which followeth his own opinion, and not the judgement of the Scripture. Occam e Occam. Dial. p. 1. l. 1. c. 6. Haereticus est, qui pertinaci avimo tenet aliquam Haeresin, cuius contradictoria in Sacris 〈◊〉 continetur. , He is an Heretic, which with a pertinacious mind embraceth any Error, the contradictory doctrine whereof, is contained in holy Scripture. Two things, constitute an Heretic: First, Error and false Doctrine, as the material. Secondly, Malicious and pertinacious adhering to the same, or defending the same, as the formal. A man may have both these, without any explicit denying the Article of the Catholic Church. For the Truth which he gainesayeth, may be plainly delivered in the holy Scripture, and he may read the same, and have sufficient means to know it in the Scripture, and maliciously or inordinately resist the holy Ghost, speaking by the Scriptures: Act. 7.51. e Cyprian. Ep. 75. 〈◊〉 differentia est, inter pseudo propheram, & haereticum. Our Saviour condemneth some for Heretics; calling them false Prophets, Murderers, and thieves, Mat. 7.15. joh. 10.5. Not because they opposed the present Church; for some of these were principal Rulers of the jewish Church, Mat. 23.1. but because they taught and believed contrary to the Scriptures, Mat. 22.29. Saint Augustine a Aug. d. Bapt. c. Don. lib. 4. cap. 16. Constituamus ergo duos aliquos isto modo, unum eorum verbi gratia, id sentire de Christo quod Photinus opinatus est, & in eius Haeresi baptizari extra Ecclesiae Catholicae communionem: alium vero hoc idem sentire, 〈◊〉 in Catholica Baptizari, existimantem ipsam esse Catholicam fidem. Istum nondum Haereticum dico, nisi manifestata sibi Doctrina Catholicae fider 〈◊〉 maluerit, & illud quod 〈◊〉 elegerit, quod antequam fiat, manifestum est illum, qui foris baptizatus est esse pejorem. d. Bapt. c. Don. li. 4. c. 16. speaketh not altogether as the jesuit 〈◊〉 him: but saith only, That he would not affirm of such a person, who being baptised in the 〈◊〉 Church, believed as Photinus the heretic did, supposing the same to be Catholic Faith, that he was an heretic: he absolutely affirmeth not, that such a person was no Heretic, but that he would not pronounce him an Heretic, before he was convicted. And he speaketh of Heretics, not as they were in foro coeli, according to the judgement of God; but in foro Ecclesiae, according to Ecclesiastical Censure. Neither doth he speak of persons, sufficiently convicted by plain evidence of holy Scripture, and maliciously and inordinately resisting the Truth; but of simple Errants, misled and seduced, through ignorance or infirmity. Doctor Field, (whose learned Treatise of the Church, is D. Field. 3. Book of the Church. c. 3. nibbled at by Papists, but yet remains unanswered by them) is censured by this Obiectour, for saying, without any Proof, that an Errand against a fundamental point, is an Heretic, though he err without pertinacy. But the jesuit reporteth amiss, when he saith Doctor Field delivered this Assertion without Proof; for in the Margin of his Book he confirmeth the same, by the testimonies of Gerson a Gerson. to. 3. d. Consol. li. 4. pros. 1. pa. 53. Dubius in fide infidelis est? Quod utique veritatem habet, dum quis illa dubitat, quae per eruditionem sacrae Scripturae, certa tenetur & explicata 〈◊〉 tenere. and Occam b Occam. Dial. p. 1. l. 4. c. 3. Quidam sunt nescientes Haeretici, qui assertionem nullam pertinentem ad fidem Christianam sub propria forma Scriptam in Scriptura divina repertam dubitant esse veram, quia 〈◊〉 Scripturam divinam recipiunt: Sed tamen 〈◊〉 assetriones sequentes ex illis, propter hoc, quod aliter intelligunt Scripturas divinas, quam sensus Spiritus Sancti flagitat, à quo sumptae sunt, non credunt esse veras, quià non putant quod sequantur ex illis, quià autem credunt irrevocabiliter contrarias assertiones esse veras, ideo Haeretici sunt censendi qui tamen in genere credunt totam fidem Christianam esse veram. Idem. p. 2. tr. 1. ca 10. Haeretici sunt in duplici differentia, quidam sunt scientes Haeretici, quidam sunt Haeretici non scientes, etc. Errantes contra fidem Christianam aberrant, Ipso facto, & hoc 〈◊〉 dupliciter: quià aut errant contra 〈◊〉 quam tenentur explicitè tenere vel credere: sicut si quis assentiret 〈◊〉 non fuisse 〈◊〉, putans hoc ad fidem Christianam minimè pertinere. Ibid. Errans contrà fidem debit 〈◊〉 per regulam fidei Christianae, qui ergo regulam fidei putat falsam, non est paratus 〈◊〉, igitur est Secundo ex verbis praedictis concluditur quod errans contra veritatem Catholicam, quam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere, est Haereticus reputandus: quià talis non quaerit cauta sollicitudine veritatem. , two famous Doctors of the Roman Church. And it is remarkable, that the jesuit censuring the Doctor, himself produceth no Argument out of divine Authority, to confirm his own Position, but resteth only upon the single testimony of one Father, which (as I have already showed) speaketh not to his purpose. Jesuit. Hence Jinferre, that Protestants err fundamentally, according to the second kind of erring, to wit, in the manner, in all points they hold against the Roman Church, which I have proved to be the true Catholic Church. For he that holds any private opinion so stiffly, as rather than forsake them, he denies and abandons the Catholic Church, a main Article of his Creed, erreth fundamentally, as is clear. But Protestants hold their private opinions so stiffly, as thereupon they have denied and abandoned the Catholic Church, to wit, the Roman. ANSWER. The main Proposition of this Section, to wit, Protestants 〈◊〉 fundamentally, according to the second kind of erring, etc. is denied: and the Assumption of the Syllogism, whereby the Obiectour laboureth to prove the same, is palpably untrue. For Protestants maintain no private opinion, either stiffly or remissely, whereby they have denied and abandoned the true Catholic Church. First, They maintain no doctrine as matter of Faith, but that which is delivered in holy Scripture, and which consenteth with the Primitive Church, either expressly or virtually. But such doctrine is not private opinion, because the holy Ghost, which is the supreme governor and director of the Church, and the Prophets and Apostles which were inspired from heaven, are the Authors thereof. Secondly, The Roman Church is not the Catholic Church, but an unsound part of the general visible Church, as it is proved by the Learned of our part a D. Rainold. 〈◊〉. sex. Thes. Rom. Ecclesia nec Catholica est nec sanum membrum Catholicae Thes. 5. , whereunto the Adversaries have, as yet, made no reply. Jesuit. Neither doth it import that they retain the word, having rejected the sense, seeing not the letter of the Creed pronounced, but the matter believed makes men Christians. Neither is it enough to say, that they believe the Church of the Elect, seeing the Church of the Creed, is not the Church of the only Elect (a mere fancy) but the visible and conspicuous Church, continuing from the Apostles by sucsion of Bishops, which thus I prove. ANSWER. d Origen. in Math. tr. 1. Si quis fuerit adversus quem praevaliturae sint portae inferorum, talis nequè Petra fuerit, super quam Christus aedificat Ecclesiam, nequè quae à Christo super Petram aedificatur Ecclesia, etc. Ibidem. Vbi vero consideravimus, quod unum quodquè peccatorum ob quae Christus iturus erat ad inferos, portae sunt inferorum, compraehendemus, quod anima quae maculam habet, aut rugam, aut aliquid huiusmodi, ac propter malitiam nec sancta est, nec irreprehensibilis, ea neque Petra est, super quam Christus aedificat, nequè Ecclesia, nequè Ecclesie pars, quam super Petram Christus aedificat. Ambros. in Luc. lib. 2. c. 3. Bernard. in Cantic. serm. 78. D. Rainold. d. Script. & Eccles. Thes. 4. confirmeth the same at large. We retain both the words, and the sense of the Article, and the Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed, in respect of the militant part thereof, is a Church of right believers, and especially of just and holy persons, and principally and intentionally, and as it comprehendeth both the militant and triumphant, the congregation of all the elect; for this Church is the mystical and living body which Christ saveth, Ephes. 5. 23. It is the Church of the first borne, which are written in Heaven, Heb. 12.23. It is the Church builded upon the Rock, against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail a Aug. d. Civit. Dei, li. 20. c. 8. Nunquam ab illo, Ecclesia seducetur, praedestinata & electa antè constitutionem mundi. , either by Heresy, Temptation, or mortal Sin b Origen. tr. 1. in Math. Vnunquodquè peccatorum, etc. portae sunt inferorum, una inferorum porta, vocatur scortatio. Cum multae sint, neque recenseri numero possint inferorum portae, nulla porta inferorum, valet adversus Petram, aut Ecclesiam quam Christus super illam aedificat. Hieron. sup. Math. c. 16. Ego portas inferi reor, vitia atquè peccata, vel certè Haereticorum Doctrinas, etc. , Math. 16. 18. & Math. 7.24. And if it be a mere fancy to hold this, than Gregory the Great c Gre. Mor li. 4. ca 11. Quid per dies nisi singulae quaeque Electorum mentes? Quid per menses nisi multiplicatae eorum Ecclesiae quae unam Catholicam faciunt, designatur. Jd li. 28. c. 6. Sanctam Ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris constructam, nuliis huius vitae persecutionibus superandam, Ipse super quem aedificata est, evidentèr ostendit, cum ait portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam. , with many other of the ancient Fathers were fantastics for teaching in this manner. But the Church of the Creed is not always the Church hierarchical: for the Church in the Apostles Creed is that society of Believers, against which Hell gates prevail not finally, either by Heresy or mortal sin. But Hell gates prevail against Popes and Popish Prelates by mortal sin, so far, as that they descend into the infernal lake. Therefore the Roman hierarchical Church consisting principally of Popes and Popish Prelates, is not the holy Catholic Church in the Creed, for that Church hath remission of sins, and life eternal, and passeth not into Hell, joh. 10.28. August. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 3. ca 32. Jesuit. The Church whereof Christ said, Math. 28.20. I am always with you to the consummation of the world, is the Church of the Creed, or the Church, which to forsake is damnable. For the Church wherewith Christ still abideth, not according to corporal and visible presence, but by his Spirit, is the body of Christ, whereof he is head, into which he infuseth the life of Grace: and consequently, he that forsaketh this Church, forsakes the body of Christ, the head thereof, and cannot live by his Spirit, but is in a dead and damnable estate, as a member cut off, and separated August. Epist. 50. d. Vnit. Eccles. c. 16. from a living body, as S. Augustine long ago noted. The Catholic Church is the body of Christ, whereof he is head, out of this body the holy Ghost quickeneth no man. Now the Church whereof Christ said, I am always with you to the consummation of the world, is not the Church invisible of only the Elect, but a visible Church derived by succession from the Apostles: therefore he that forsakes this Church derived by succession from the Apostles, forsakes the Church of the Creed, the Catholic Church, the body of Christ, and puts himself into a dead and damnable state, and may have all things besides Salvation and eternal Life, as Fathers affirm, whose testimonies in this Aug. Com. 〈◊〉. Contion. de Emerito ad Plebem. Lact. lib. 4. Diuin. Institut. ca ult. Cyp. epist. 62. ad Pompon. Field li. 1. of the Church, ca 23. behalf are notable, and famously known, whereunto D. Field yieldeth, acknowledging One, Holy, Catholic Church, in which only the light of heavenly Truth is to be sought, where only Grace, Mercie, remission of Sins, and hope of eternal Happiness are found. ANSWER. The Church whereof Christ said, Math. 28.20. I am always with you to the consummation of the world, is the Church of the holy Apostles, & of Pastors and Believers succeeding them in the same Faith and Religion: and this is a principal part (for the Catholic Church in general contains all Faithful and just persons, from Abel a Aug. Enchir. c. 56. & 〈◊〉 61. Idem. sup. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. & sup. Psalm 90. Gregor. Moral. li. 4. c. 10. , etc.) of the Church in the Creed. Secondly, some part of the Catholic Church of the Creed, is always visible in the world, sometimes in an ampler, sometimes in a smaller number of Professors. Also the visibility thereof, is at sometimes illustrious and notorious, and at other times it is obscure, according to the state of Persecution b Whitaker. d. Ecclesia cap. 2. q 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. non omnibus quidem, sed iis tantum, quibuscum rem habent, & qui rectè de religione iudicare possunt. . Thirdly, to forsake the true Church in the main and primary Articles of Faith, or by any wilful infidelity, is damnable: and all people which desire Salvation, must actually (if it be possible) or Voto, in case of necessity, conjoin themselves to some part of the Orthodoxal Catholic Church c Read before pa. 7.50.61. . But our Saviour promised to no one visible Sea or Church, continuing after the Apostles by succession of Bishops, absolute immunity from all Error, and infallibility of Verity; but only presential assistance, and protection of. Grace, sufficient for the salvation of his people, upon condition, to wit, when the said Pastors taught and observed that which he commanded, and continued in the right use of those means which he had deposed among them, joh. 8.31, 32. Rom. 11. 22. Read before in this Treatise, pag. 94.99. The Testimonies of S. Augustine a Aug. epist. 50. Idem. d. unit. Eccles. ca 16. objected by the Adversary, which are, That the Catholic Church, is the body of Christ, whereof he is head: and that out of this body, the holy Ghost quickeneth no man, make altogether against himself; for none are vital members of Christ's mystical body, but just and holy persons. And it is the same Father's doctrine b Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 3. c. 32. , Impij non sunt revera Corpus Christi, wicked persons are not in deed and verity Christ's body. And in another place, In corpore Christi non sunt quod est Ecclesia, quoniam non potest Christus habere membra damnata c Idem. sup. ep. joh. tr. 3. & in psal. 131. In hijs est domus Dei, quos praedestinavit, & praescivit perseveraturos. Et in Psalm. 47. Proefat. Secundam Sabbathi non debemus intelligere, nisi Ecciesiam Christi: sed Ecclesiam Christi in sanctis, Ecclesiam Christi in hijs qui scripti sunt in Coelo, Ecclesiam Christi in hijs qui mundi huius tentationibus non cedunt. , They are not in Christ's body, which is the Church, because Christ cannot have damnable members. And Bernard d Bernard. in 〈◊〉. 1. saith, Manifestum est, non esse Caput Hypochritae Christum, It is evident, that Christ is not the head of an Hypochrite. But the visible Rulers of the Popish Church have many times been (as our Adversaries themselves report) not only Hypochrites, but apparently monstrous and damnable sinners e Read before pa. 5.57. 111.112.113. , therefore they are not the Catholic Church, out of which no Salvation can be had f Aug. c. Crescon. lib. 2. c. 21. Omnia ista monstra, absit omninò ut in membris illius columbae unicae 〈◊〉, absit ut intrare possint limites horti conclusi, cuius ille custos est, qui non potest falli. , neither is perpetual influence and assistance of Grace absolutely entailed upon them. Out of the former premises, I argue thus: Wolves, Hipochrites, and impious persons are not the holy Catholic Church of the Creed, out of which there is no Salvation. Romish Prelates have been Wolves, Hypocrites, and impious men, for they have maintained false and superstitious Doctrine, repugnant to the holy Scripture, and adverse to the Faith of the Primitive Church (which Protestants have, and are again ready to demonstrate) and they have been most notorious, for all kind of abominable vices (as Romists themselves have published to the World) and they have also most injustly and tyranically Read before in this 〈◊〉, pag. 111. 112.113. persecuted and oppressed true believers, Ergo, Romish Prelates are not the holy Catholic Church of the Creed, out of which there is no Salvation. Argument 2. Out of the holy Catholic Church of the Creed there is no Salvation. Read before in this Treatise, pag. 1.2. Out of the fellowship of the Roman Church there hath been, and is Salvation. Ergo The present Roman Church is not the holy Catholic Church of the Creed. And thus the Obiector hath gained nothing by accusing our Church of fundamental error, and his nine Accusations are proved to be so many calumniations: and we neither err fundamentally in any main Article, nor yet pertinaciously or maliciously against any other Christian verity. For although whiles we live in the world, tenebras huius mortalitatis circumferimus, Aug. d. Tem. serm. 237. (as S. Augustine speaketh) we carry about us (in regard of ourselves) the darkness of mortality, tamen ad Scripturae lucernam ambulamus, yet we study carefully to walk according to the true light of holy Scripture, and God hath hitherto so assisted us, that the evil eye of our Adversaries, is not able to discover in our Doctrine any capital Error: nevertheless, if upon further inquisition, they shall make it appear by divine testimony, or other sufficient proof, that we are deceived in any matter of Faith, small or great, we will be as 〈◊〉 to reform ourselves, as they are ready to accuse us. And in all differences between them and us, we submit ourselves to a free, lawful, general Council, to be tried by the rule of God's word; concerning which S. Augustine saith a Aug d. Trinit. li. 3. ea. 11. , Extat authoritas divinarum Scripturarum, undè mens nostra deviare non debet, nec relicto solidamento divini eloquij, per suspitionum suarum abrupta praecipitari, There is extant, the sacred authority of divine Scripture, from whence we may not deviate, nor forsaking the infallible ground of God's word, be carried into the precipicies of men's fancies. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, (saith great Athanasius, b Athan. orat. c. Gent. Greg. Moral. li. 18. c. 14. Si rectè loqui desiderant, indè sumere debent, quid loquantur. Ambros. Hexam. li. 2. c. 2. Nos 〈◊〉 Scripturarum coelestium magifterio. ) The sacred Scriptures, given by divine inspiration, are all-sufficient of themselves, to the demonstration of (sacred) verity. But a thief (saith Chrisostome c Chrys. in joan Hom. 58. ) entereth not into the sheepfould by the testimony of the Scriptures, which are called a door, & that most justly, because they lead us to God, and manifest divine knowledge to us, they make us Christ's sheep, and preserve us, so as wolves cannot rush in upon us. But he that useth not the holy Scripture, but climbeth in some other way, that is a way not permitted, the same is a thief. Now Protestants follow the Scriptures, and Romists enterby humane Traditions. THE THIRD PART OF THIS TREATISE: Wherein the jesuit disputeth Nine Questions, propounded by his MAJESTY. Jesuit. AN ANSWER TO THE Nine Points proposed by your most EXCELLENT MAJESTY. I Have been large in my former Proofs, That the Roman is the only true Catholic Church, whose Traditions coming down by perpetual succession from Christ, and his holy Apostles, are so constantly and strongly to be believed, that no proofs out of Scripture (by private interpretation understood) though seeming most evident, may stand to contest against them. And this I have done, not without purpose, assuring myself, that if your Majesty were thoroughly persuaded in this Point, you would (without any man's help) most easily and fully satisfy yourself in particular Controversies, out of your own excellent Wisdom, and Learning. For as some that have been present at your Majesty's discourses casually incident about Religion, report, few of our Divines (though trained up continually in Academies, and Exercises of Theology) are able to say more than your Majesty, in the defence of the Catholic cause, for particular Controversies, when you please to undertake the patronage thereof, which I can easily believe out of my own experience, who could not but 〈◊〉, seeing your Majesty so well acquainted with our Doctrines, and so ready and prompt in Scholastical subtleties. Wherefore I most humbly beseech your most excellent Majesty, to honour these my poor Labours with a gracious perusal of them, accepting of my Answers, when they may seem reasonable, being in defence of Doctrines received from Ancestors, which deserve approbation, when there is no evidency against them: And out of your abundant Clemency, pardon my prolixity; seeing the Questions by your Majesty proposed, were so difficile and obscure, as I could hardly have made any shorter full explication of them. ANSWER. YOu have been large and prolix (Nam quid est loquacius vanitate? Aug. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 5. cap. 27. Facile est cuiquam, videri respondisse, qui tacere noluerit. Aut quid est loquacius vanitate? Quae non ideo potest quod veritas, quia si voluerit etiam, plus potest clamare quam veritas. for what is more wordie, than Vanity?) in depressing the sacred Scriptures, which are the Oracles of God himself, and advancing the Customs and usurped Authority of the Roman Sect. Sed quis tam vanus, ut veritati consuetudinem praeferat? Who will be so mad, as to prefer Custom before Verity? And whereas you glory of the Pedigree of Romish Traditions, pretending that they are descended by perpetual succession from Christ, and his holy Apostles, and that the same aught so strongly and constantly to be believed, that no proofs out of Scripture (interpreted against your Tenet) though seeming to be most evident, may stand to contest against them: Surely, there is hitherto nothing solid, or evident, produced by you, to confirm this Assertion; and therefore, Quae ista Cyprian. ep. 74. obstinatio est quae ve praesumptio, humanam traditionem Divinae dispositioni anteponere? What presumption and obstinacy is this, to prefer humane Tradition before Divine Ordinance a August. d. Agon. Christi, cap. 28. ? Ipsam fidem quae in Scriptures manifesta est, non vultis discere; You will not learn the right Faith, which is manifest in the Scripture b August. sup. Psal. 32. Cypr. d. Laps. Alta & erecta Ceruix, nec quia cecidit inflexa est, tumens animus & superbus, nec quia victus est fractus est, iacens stantibus, & integris vulneratus minatur. Idem, Epist. 40. Qui mandatum Dei rejiciunt, & Traditionem suam statuere conantur, fortiter a vobis & firmiter respuantur. . Nec remanet vobis, nisi sola infirmitas animositatis, quae tanto est languidior, quanto se maiores vires habere aestimat; Your only support is, the infirmity of an high, or overweening stomach, which is so much the more feeble, by how much it over-valueth its own strength. Hence proceedeth the assuring yourself of success, in persuading no meaner a Person than his most excellent Majesty, to relish your Superstition. But Saint Basil saith c Basil. epist. 107. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Solo roar aluntur Cicadae, Grassehoppers feed wholly upon dew, and Ephraim feedeth upon the Wind, Host 12. 1. His Majesty is a Cedar d Orig. sup. Num. Hom. 17. & sup. Ezech. Hom. 11. Basil. sup. Psa. 28. Ho. 1. Hieron. Trans. orig. in Cant. Cedrus imputribile Lignum. of Libanus, grounded on Verity, established in the right Faith, one, which by reason of habit and long use (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) hath his senses exercised, to discern good and evil, Heb. 5.14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Captain of the Host of the Lord: Lex Dei in cord eius, The Law of God is in his heart, his foot can never slide. It is therefore subtlety, rather than hope, which induceth you to vent these fond surmises, of his propension or inclination towards your part. For although such fancies are ridiculous to prudent men, yet they serve your turn, in being baits to delude and entrap the credulous, and incautelous, who commonly regard not what indeed is, but what in their own fancy may be e Cicero, pro Roscio. Ex opinione multa ex veritate pauca iudicant. . Lastly, whereas upon fame, or hearsay, (which according to Tertullian f Tertul. Apolog. cap. 7. Report or Fame, is most an end false: and when it delivereth some part of truth, it is not then free from the vice (or tincture) of untruth. , Plurimum mendax, & ne tunc quidem cum veri 〈◊〉 adfert, sine 〈◊〉 vicio est) you report, That his Majesty doth at some times show his excellent Wisdom and Learning, in the patronage of your Catholic (Pseudo-Catholike) Cause; you should rather have made mention of that which is certain, How often, and with what admirable solidity, his Majesty undertaketh, by his Word and Pen, the confusion and demolishing of your Babylonian Cause. But were it so, that his excellent Majesty should sometimes propound and urge your Objections, for the better resolution of Points in question; there is as little reason to interpret this as a favour to your Cause, as to construe some passages of king Salomon's Ecclesiastes, uttered by way of tentation in the person of Epicures a 〈◊〉. Com. Eccles. cap. 3. , ut quidam interpretantur. Ibidem, cap. 7. 〈◊〉 est, ex persona hominis 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉. , to have been spoken seriously, in favour of that wicked Sect. THE WORSHIP OF IMAGES. Jesuit. 〈◊〉 Have more hope to give your MAJESTY satisfaction in this Article, because all kind of Theological Proofs stand for the same, and nothing against it, as I am persuaded, which I declare by this Discourse. ANSWER. YOu were no Loyalist, if you could not promise golden Mountains a Cyprian. Epist. 55. Arrogans & superba iactatio, non de Christi Magisterio sed de Antichristi spiritu naseitur. : but the Worship of Images, is a practice, so absurd in reason, and so repugnant to all divine Authority, that, (to speak in Saint Augustine's phrase b Aug. d. ciu. Dei. lib. 17. ) Non solum infideliter, sed etiam infaeliciter & impudenter, etc. The defence thereof cannot be undertaken, without infidelity, impudency, and unlucky success. Jesuit. If the custom of Worshipping Images, be grounded on the prime Principles of Nature and Christianity: If the same hath been received in the Church, universally, without any known time of beginning: If places of Scripture that Protestants urge against us, make against their custom of making Images, so that with no probability or ingenuity, they thereupon mislike us. if by the use of Images there be no danger of hurt to ignorant people, which may not with very ordinary diligence of Pastors and Teachers be prevented, and otherwise the utilities very great; then there is no reason of just mislike of this custom. But this supposition is true, as in the same order I will endeavour to show in the sour Particulars. ANSWER. This Advocate of Imagery, should first of all have declared, what he understandeth by Worship of Images: whether Veneration only, largely taken; or Adoration, properly so called. Veneration may signify external Regard and Reverence of Pictures, such as is given to Churches and sacred Vessels, and to ornaments of sacred places; and according to this notion, many have approved or tolerated worship a Nycen. Synod. 2. Act. 7. Epist. Tharas. Glossa. d. 〈◊〉. d. 3. c. Venerabiles Adorare, id est, Reverentiam exhibere. Peres. Aial. d. Trad. p. 3. d. ven. Sanct. Distinguendo vocabula Adorationis & venerationis, ut isti Sancti distinguunt, nemo in Ecclesia dicit, qui 〈◊〉 sentiat, Sanctos debere adorari, sed venerari. Junius. Animad. Bellarm. d. Imag. c. 11. n. 1. Bellarm. Non esse ullo modo colendas Imagines. Resp. Hoc 〈◊〉 nostrum dicit, non esse colendas, nec ullo modo: suo modo coli probamus, 〈◊〉 imagines, at non religioso cultu, qui aut superstitiosus est, aut impius, nec cum aliorum scandalo, sive cultus separatus, 〈◊〉 coniunctus cum corum 〈◊〉 intelligatur, 〈◊〉 sunt imagines. of Images, which deny Adoration. Adoration properly taken (among Schoolmen b 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 103. 〈◊〉. 4. Gabr. 〈◊〉. miss. lect. 49. 〈◊〉. 3. to. 1. Disp. 51. sect. 1. Signif. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quo unus alteri 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, velillum honorat, in recognitionem excellentiae eius. Petigian. 3. d. 9 q. 1. ar. 2. Adoratio tres actus complectitur. 1. Actum intellectus, quo apprehendimus excellentiam alicuius. 2. Actum voluntatis, quo nos illi interius inclinamus, & aliquid volumus facere actu interiore, & exteriore, quo potestamur eius excellentiam, & nostram subiectionem. 3. Actum exteriorem, quo caput inclinamus, velgenu flectimus, vel aliquid aliud signum subiectionis ostendimus, ex quibus actibus secundus, est maximè proprius & essentialis. 〈◊〉. in 3. q. 25. 〈◊〉 2. 〈◊〉. q. 5. dub. 〈◊〉. Cabrera in 3, q. 25. 〈◊〉. 1. comment. Tapia. in 3. q. 27. ar. 3. Vasques d. Ador. 〈◊〉. 1. disp. 1. c. 1. & l. 2. disp. 8. c. 8. n. 321. 〈◊〉. d. Sacr. Ador. cult. disp. 3. Sect. 7. 〈◊〉. Quaest Scholar 7. ar. 1. Palac. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. disp. 1. ) signifieth a yielding of honour to things Worshipped, by recognition of their dignity and excellency, and by religious submission of Body and Soul, to wit, by inward motion of the Will, and external deeds and gestures of Honour, as Kneeling, Kissing, Censing, holding up the hands, etc. The worshipping of Images in this manner, by Religious Adoration c 〈◊〉. d. Sacr. Ador. cult. disp. 3. sect. 6. n. 7. Imagines 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, sunt 〈◊〉 adoratione sacra & religiosa, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pa. 260. Suares. in 3. to. 1. disp. 52. sect. 3. Hic cultus, etc. 〈◊〉 religiosus 〈◊〉. pa. 588. , either primary, or secondary d 〈◊〉. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 8. c. 8. n. 331. , absolute or respective, is neither grounded on the prime Principles of Nature and Christianity, neither was the same practised by the ancient Catholic Church: But on the contrary, it is a superstitious dotage, a palliate Idolatry, a remainder of Paganism a Cornel. Agrippa. d. vanit. scient. d. Imag. Qui quidem corruptus Gentilium mos, & falsa religio, cum ipsi ad Christi fidem, converti caeperunt, nostram quoque religionem infecit, & in nostram Ecclesiam simulachra & imagines, multasque Pomparum steriles ceremonias introduxit, quorum nihil omnino fuit, apud primos illos Christianos. , condemned by sacred Scripture, censured by Primative Fathers, and a Seminary of direful contention, and mischief in the Church of Christ. First, The Scriptures of the Old Testament, are so apparently against Adoration of Images, Exod. 20.5. Levit. 26.1. Deut. 5. 9 Psal. 106. 19 Esay 2. 8. Mich. 5. 13. that the best learned Papists themselves, affirm the same to have been prohibited unto the jews. Aquinas b Aquin. 3. sent. dist. 9 q. 2. ad. 1. Prohibitum est in veteri lege, ne imagines fierent, ad adorandum. saith, The making of Images to be worshipped, was prohibited in the Old Law. The same is affirmed by Alexander Hales c Al. Hal. p. 3. q. 30. m. 3. ar. 3. , Albertus d Albert. 3. d. 9 ar. 4. , Bonaventure e Bonauent. 3. d. 9 , Marsilius f Marsil. 3. q. 8. ar. 2. , Rich. Mediavilla g Rich. 3. d. 9 q. 2. , Gerson h Gers. compend. tr. 2. d. 10. precept. , Abulensis i Abul. Exod. 20. q. 39 ; and it is also the Tenet of many later Schoolmen k Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 4. c. 6. n. 98. Respondeo lege veteri non fuisse 〈◊〉 omnem similitudinem aut effigiem quomodocunque, sed omnem cultum & adorationem ipsius, atque adeo omnem quoque imaginem seu effigiem modo accommodato adorationi erectam, aut constitutam. Soto. d. Iust. & iure. l. 2. q. 4. ar. 2. Cordub. li. 1. q. 5. du. 5. Palacius. 3. d. 9 Oleaster. sup. Exod. 20. Cabrera. 3. q. 25. Disp. 1. §. 5. Tapia. in 3. q. 27. ar. 8. , to wit, Soto, Corduba, Cabrera, Palacius, Tapia, Oleaster, etc. Secondly, The brazen Serpent was a figure of Christ, joh. 3.14. The same was form by God's Commandment, Num. 21.9. And yet the worship thereof, being (as Vasques l Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 4. c. 5. n. 91. Quando Ezechias ipsum confregit, quod videret ei incensum adoleri, cum tamen in solam memoriam preteriti beneficij a Deo accepti, in populo illo, seruaretur: non ideo fecit, quia existimaret, a populo pro Deo iam coli, & adorari, sed quod aliquem cultum qualem 〈◊〉 imaginibus deferre nos consuevimus, qui omnino erat populo illi prohibitus, videret ei adhiberi. Adolebant enim illi incensum: nec aliam causam ob quam Ezechias ipsum confregit Scriptura nobis exposuit, at incensi Oblatio non est proprie Sacrificium soli Deo debitum, sed quae etiam rebus inanimis, aut imaginibus refertur. saith) no other, than such as Romists use towards their Images, was unlawful, 2. Kings 18.4. m Aug. d. Civit. Dei. l. 10. c. 8. Dist. 63. c. Quia Ezechias, etc. Fregit serpentem aeneum quem fecit Moses, etc. Thirdly, The Scriptures of the New Testament, neither expressly, nor by Consequent, maintain the worship of Images. Neither is there in all the Apostles Doctrine, any abrogation of the Negative Precept, delivered to the jews, concerning the Worship of Images: And therefore the same Law is Moral, and obligeth Christians, as it did the jews. Fourthly, the worship of Images was not practised, or held lawful by the Primitive Fathers a Cassand. Consult. d. Imag. & Simulachris. Quantú veteres initio Ecclesiae, ab omni veneratione Imaginum abhorruerút, declarat unus origines adversus celsum, etc. has ideò Imagines non honoramus, etc. Aug. d. Consens. Euang. li. 1. ca 10 Et d. Mor. Eccles. Cathol. cap. 34. Novi multos esse Sepulchrorum & Picturarum adoratores. Et epist. 119. Nulla Imago eius coli debet, nisi illa, quae est hoc quod ipse. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 31. Non vult se Deus in lapidibus coli. Idem. d. Obitu Theodosijs, Helena, Constantini matter, non adoravit lignum, quià hic Gentilis est error, & vanitas impiorum. Greg. Nissen. or. Funeb. placillae, pa. 290. Qui creaturam adorat, etiamsi in nomine Christi id facit, Simulachrorum cultor est. Clem. Rom. Recog. lib. 5. pag. 71. & 73. : And Gregory the great b Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Tua fraternitas, etc. ab 〈◊〉 adoratu, populum prehibere debuit, & li. 9 epist. 9 Adorare Imagines omnibus modis devita. Cassand. Consult. d. Imag. pa. 977. , six hundred years after Christ, condemned the same. The Council of Frankford c Roger. Hoveden. Annal. part. 1. pag. 232. Col. 2. Carolus rex Francorum misit Synodalem librum ad 〈◊〉, etc. in quo libro multa inconuenientia, & verae Fidei contraria, etc. maxim quod penè omnium orientalium Doctorum non minus quam 300, etc. Episcoporum unanima assertione confirmatum fuerit, Imagines debere adorati, quod omnino Ecclesia Dei execratur. , seven hundred ninety and four years after Christ, opposed the definition of the second Nicen Synod, concerning worship of Images (as beside more ancient Historians d Ado. Cron. aetat. 6. fol. 181. Sed & Pseudo Synodus, quam septimam Graeci appellant, pro adorandis Imaginibus abdicata penitus. Regino. Cron. lib. 2. fo. 30. Hincmar. li. c. jandunens'. Episc. c. 20. Septima autem apud 〈◊〉 vocata universalis, Pseudo Synodus, de Imaginibus quas quidam confringendas, quidam autem adorandas dicebant, neutra 〈◊〉 pars intellectu sano definiens, sine authorite Apostolicae Sedis non longè antè nostra tempora Niceae est à compluribus Episcopis habita, & Romam missa, quam etiàm Papa Romanus in Franciam direxit, unde tempore Charoli magni Imperatoris, iussione Apostolicae Sedis, generalis Synodus in Francia convocante praefato Imperatote celebrata, & secundum Scripturarum tramitem, traditionemquè maiorum, ipsa Grae corum Pseudo Synodus destructa est, & penitus abdicata, de cuius destructione, non modicum volumen, quod in Palatio adolescentulus legi, ab eodem Imperatore, Romam est per quosdam Episcopos missum. Amoin. d. Gest. 〈◊〉. lib. 4. cap. 85. Abbas. Vesperg. Cron. Ann. 793. In these two latter Authors, Amoinus and Vspergensis, the name of Constantinople is inserted for Nice, but in the matter they agree. Read Vasques. d. Ador. lib. 2. disp. 7. cap. 2. n. 213. Vero similius esteos (Amonium & Vspergens.) errasse in uno verbo, ponendo Constantinopolitanam, pro Nicena. , Cassander e Cassander. Consult. d. Imag. Cum in Synodo Nicena sub Constantino & Irene, de Imaginibus adorandis, aliquot decreta edita fuissent, atquè exemplar illius Graecanicae Synodi Francofurtum, etc. allatum, & iussu Caroli diligentèr lectum fuisset, cui Synodo, etiàm Legati Romani Pontificis interfuerunt, summo Patrum consensu Graeca illa Synodus, qua parte Imagines adorandas censebat, improbata & damnata fuit, ut quae non modo divinis literis, & antiquae Patrum Traditioni, sed etiàm consuetudini Romanae Ecclesiae adversaretur, quae damnatio etiàm acts & capitibus illius Francofordiensis Synodi inserta fuit. , and some other Pontificians affirm f Genebrard. Cronol. li. 3. an. 794. Addo patres qui Francofurtum convenerant, non satis habuisse perspectam Nicenae sententiam, ac fuisse deceptos falsis rumoribus & scriptis. .) Agobardus g Agobardus. Biblioth. Patr. Edit. Colon. tom. 9 pag. 598. Nullus antiquorum Catholicorum, unquam eas colendas vel adorandas fortè existimavit. Ibid. Nemo se fallat, nemo se seducat, nemo se circumueniat: quicunquè aliquam Picturam vel Fusilem, sive ductilem adorat statuam, non exhibet cultum Deo, non honorat Angelos vel homines sanctos, sed simulachra veneratur. Ibid. Habuerunt namquè & antiqui Sanctorum Imagines vel pictas vel sculptas, sed causa Historiae ad recordandum, non ad colendum. the BB. of Lions, who lived (as Ado saith) about the year 815, in his Book de Picturis & Imaginibus, saith, That none of the ancient Catholics thought that Images were to be worshipped, or adored: and delivering his own judgement, he saith, Nemo se fallat, etc. Let no man beguile himself, whosoever worshippeth any Picture, or molten or carved Statue, neither honoureth God himself, nor Angels or Saints, but Idols. Fifthly, many latter Pontificians have condemned the worshipping of Images (according as the same was practised by the vulgar, and maintained by Aquinas and other principal Schoolmen.) Holcoth saith h Holcoth. in lib. Sap. cap. 13. pag. 524. Nulla adoratio debetur Imagini, nec licet aliquam Imaginem adorare. , No adoration is due to an Image, neither is it lawful to worship any Image. Cassander writeth in this manner a Cassan. Consult. d. Pictur. & Imaginibus pag. 977. Sanioribus Scholasticis, displicet sentétia 〈◊〉, qui céseat Imaginem eadé adoratione colendam, qua res ipsa colitur, quae 〈◊〉 significatur, eamquè parum tutam esse aiunt, nisi commoda interpretatione sublevetur, in quibus est Durandus & Robertus Holcot, Gabriel, quoquè Biel, saniotem sententiam redfert eorum qui dicunt, quod Imago nequè ut consideratur in se, secundum quod lignum est, lapis, aut Metallum, 〈◊〉 ut consideratur secundum rationem Signi & Imaginis, est adoranda. Gerson. Compend. part. 2. d. decempraecept. Nos non adoramus Imagines, sed refertur honour & adoratio ad imaginatum. Guliel. Durand. Rational. Divinor. lib. 1. cap. 3. Ferus. sup. judic. ca 8. , The opinion of Thomas Aquinas, who holdeth, that Images are to be worshipped, as their Samplers, is disliked by sounder Schoolmen; and they affirm, that the same is not very safe, unless it be qualified with favourable interpretation. Among these is Durand, and Holcoth. Gabriel Biel reporteth the opinion of them which say, that an Image, neither as it is considered in itself materially, nor yet according to the nature of a Sign or Image, is to be worshipped. Peresius Aiala saith b Peres. d. Trad. pa. 3. d. Imag. Omnes ferè Scholastici in hoc sunt, quod imago Christi, & Sanctorum adorari debent, eadem adoratione qua & res quae & representantur. Ideò Imagini 〈◊〉, & signo crucis sanctissimo, in eo quod Christum representant, latriae adorationem illis deberi 〈◊〉. Cuius Doctrinae nullum (quod ego viderim) afferrunt validum fundamentum, quod posset fideles ad id quod docent obligare, nam nequè Scripturam, nequè Traditionem Ecclesiae, nequè communem sensum Sanctorum, nequè Concilij generalis determinationem aliquam, nèc etiàm rationem, qua hoc efficaciter suaderi possit, adducunt. Concil. Moguntin. cap. 41. & 42. Imaginum usum velut pro erudienda plebe, & omnium animis excitandis utilem, in Ecclesijs nostris retineri serio mandamus, dummodò Pastores nostri populum accuratè moneant, Imagines non ad id proponi ut adoremus aut colamus eas: sed ut quid adorare aut colere, aut quarum rerum utilitèr meminisse debeamus, per Imagines recordemur. , All Schoolmen (in a manner) hold, that the Image of Christ, and the Images of Saints are to be worshipped with the same adoration, that their Samplers, but they produce (so far as I have seen) no sound proof of this Doctrine, to wit, neither Scripture, nor Tradition of the Church, nor common consent of Fathers, nor the determination of a general Council, or any other effecuall reason sufficient to persuade Believers. Sixthly, the variety of opinions, and the palpable discord among Pontificians, concerning the manner of adoring Images, their sandy and disjointed consequences, their forging and purging Authors, their knotty and labyrinthian distinctions, wherein they ambush themselves, and out face evident Truth; are sensible arguments of corrupt and unsound Doctrine, in this Article of adoration of Images. Jesuit. Jesuit 1. Worship of Images, consequent out of the Principles of Nature and Christianity. AN Image is a distinct and lively portraiture of some visible and corporal thing, parts of the Image corresponding to the parts of the thing represented, more or less particularly, according as the Image is more or less distinct and lively. ANSWER. c Alchasar. Apoc. 12. Bernard. serm. d. Virg. Maria. Signum magnum apparuit in Coelo, mulier amicta Sole & Luna sub pedibus eius, & in capite eius corona duodecem Stellarum. Tilman. Bredenbach. Collat. Sacr. lib. 3. cap. 23. Progressi sunt ad Imaginem B. Virgins' 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 Sole, & Lunam sub pedibus habentem, ex laqueati Ecclesiae dependentem. Benzon. sup. Magnif. lib. 1. cap. 18. pag. 103. Corena. B. Virg. Mariae, in Prologue. fol. 1. Osorius Conc. tom. 5. Dominic. Aduent. 2. pa. 16. THis definition may perchance agree to some Images a 〈◊〉. Orig. lib. 8. ca 8. Simulachra à similitudine nuncupata, eo quod manu 〈◊〉 ex lapide aliaue materia corum vultus imitantur, in quorum honorem finguntur. Cabrera. in 3. q. 25. ar. 3. disp. 3. §. n. 63. Dicitur Imago ab imitando, quià imitatur & representar interiora exemplaris, exprimens, illud secuti est. , to wit, to the pictures of persons, & visible creatures which were taken from the immediate beholding of the Prototype, but not to such Images as are made by conjecture b Arnob. c. Gent. li. 6. Vndè 〈◊〉 an 〈◊〉 haec, quae Dijs im mortalibus vicaria substitutione formatis, similitudiné habeant, etc. potest enim fieri, ut barbatus in Coelo sit, qui hic à vobis effingitur len is. Lact. d. ver. Relig. li. 2. , or upon fabulous and Apocryphal reports, such as are the Images of Christ, and of the Prophets, Apostles, and many other Saints, drawn and portrayed many ages since their departure out of the world. Papists (besides many other forms) depaint the blessed Virgin, like the Queen of Heaven, with a crown of Stars, and clothed with the Sun, and treading the Moon under her feet. This and the like Images are false represents, neither have they direct and immediate correspondence to the parts and qualities of the persons represented. And whereas the jesuit termeth an Image (meaning such as is used in his Church) A distinct and lively portraiture, etc. he should rather have said, A confused and dead portraiture d Arnob. Adu. Gent. li. 6. Ludus est simulachra ista confingere, normina illis tanquam propria dedicare quibus, si habitum detrahas tollatur cognitio 〈◊〉. Lactant. Instit. lib. 2. cap. 18. Quicquid similatur id 〈◊〉 sit necesse est, nec potest 〈◊〉 verinomen accipere, quod veritatem suco & imitatione mentitur. : for who is able to deliver a distinct and lively Picture, truly resembling Christ's humane body, or the countenance, feature, and proportion of many other Saints deceased? And Clemens Alexandrinus e Clem. Alexandr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pag. 25. Agobard. d. Pict. & Imag. Homo facere non potest quicquam in quo sit similitudo hominis in ment & ratione. Nàm si exprimit vtcunquè sculpendo vel pingendo aliquam similitudinem corporis aut membroram, hoc vtiquè exprimit quod minimum est in homine non quod maximum. Epiphan. tom. 2. li. 3. Haer. 59 siuè 79. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. speaking of a painted Image, doth not call it lively, but saith that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a dead matter form by a workman's hand: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. But we (saith he) use no Image made of sensible matter, but such only as is perceived by understanding. But if we consider the Pictures and Puppets which now a days in most places, our Romists make of the blessed Virgin, we may wish that they had made only dead or confused portraitures. And what Christian eyes, if not bleared with the fog of Superstition, can with patience behold the dresses, attires, and various fashions, wherein they 〈◊〉 present the B. Virgin; yea many times like a Curtesane, or after the lightestand most immodest fashions of the world? What proportion or correspondence is there with the sampler, in these prodigious forms? Jesuit. The office of an Image is to carry the imagination of the beholders thereof, directly and immediately to the person imagined therein; Jmagination of parts in the person represented, answering unto the parts seen in the Image: which kind and use of Images nature allows unto men, to the end they may remember and more fully imagine persons absent and removed from their corporal fight, upon whom they ought and have great desire lively and staidly to fix their imaginations and thoughts. ANSWER. Images of visible persons and creatures, may lead the imagination of Beholders, to the Person, and Creature represented by them. But Images of Christ and of the Trinity, and of the glorified Saints, are deficient in their expression, and representation, and they may mislead the imagination, and engender a carnal conceit a Agobard. lib. d. Pictur. & Imagine. tom. 9 Biblioth. col. Quantum autem visibilia noceant ad invisibilia capienda, & quantum amor corporearum terum etiàm bonarum, ad spiritualia contemplanda, ipse Dominus demonstrat dicens: Ego 〈◊〉 dico vobis, expedit vobis ut ego 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 enim non abiero non mittam 〈◊〉 ad vos. of those Persons, and also hinder the spiritual knowledge and Faith, which people ought to have of them. The Spirit of God, which knoweth best what helps are useful, and necessary, to elevate our minds to spiritual Contemplation, hath left us his Gospel, wherein Christ jesus is depainted before the eyes of our soul, Galathians 3. 1. And also the holy Sacraments, which are visible signs, and Seals of Grace: but if painted and carved Images b Aug. d. Consens. Euang. li. 1. ca 10. Sic omnino errare meruerunt, qui Christum & Apostolos eius, non in sanctis Codicibus, sed in pictis 〈◊〉 quaesierunt. Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 lib. 5. pag. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , had been such motives, and effectual means, to infuse godly memory, and heavenly desires, into our hearts (as 〈◊〉 pretend) we may be assured that our great Paraclete would have expressly appointed and recommended the same in his Word: so far would he have been from perpetual defacing of Images, and condemning the ordinary use of them in his Worship. I answer therefore, It may be the Office or use of some Images, to wit, of such as agree with the Prototype, and which are permitted by the Word of God, and are lawfully made and used, to lead the imagination of the beholders, to the remembrance of the person, and thing imagined. But if people presume beyond their model, and adventure to delineate that in Pictures and Images, which they know not, and invent a kind of Teaching, which was not learned in the School of Christ a Chrys. ad pop. Ancioch. Hom. 60. Discamus Christum, prout ipse vult venerari. Honorato namque iveundissimus honour, quem ipse vult, non quem nos putamus. Name & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 se honorare putabat, cum sibi pedes eumlavare prohiberet, sed non erat honor quem agebat sed contrarium. August. d. consens. Euang. lib. 1. cap. 18. Si alio modo eum colere vellent, quam se colendum ipse dixisset; non utique illum colerent, sed quod ipsi finxissent. ; their own inventions, prove snares, and their Images beget vain imaginations, to say no worse of them. Jesuit. Hence ariseth the allowed Principle of Nature, received by all Nations, civil and barbarous, Ita ut in eo, to speak with Saint Augustine, Nulla Doctorum paucitas, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contra Manich. nulla indoctorum turba dissentiat: That the Image, may, and aught to stand for the Prototype, and is by imagination to be taken, as if it were the very person, and what we outwardly do to the Image, is done by imagination unto the person. As when we kiss the hands and feet of the Image, in our imagination, we kiss the hands and feet of the Person inwardly imagined by his Image. ANSWER. It is no Axiom of Nature, that every Artificial Image devised by man, may, and aught to stand for the Prototype, and is by imagination to be taken as if it were the very Person, and what we outwardly do to the Image, is done by imagination, to the Person, but only of such Images 〈◊〉. Hal. 3. q. 3. m. 3. ar. 3. Signum per nstitutionem. as are lawfully appointed, either by Civil or Divine Ordinance to these ends. The brazen Serpent, was a Figure, and Image of Christ, and yet it did not in such sort stand for the Prototype, as that outward Adoration and burning of Incense might lawfully be done unto it a 〈◊〉. in 3. p. Thom. q. 25. 〈◊〉. 104. cap. 5. jussit Deus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & stantes, absque ulla 〈◊〉 nota & 〈◊〉, in ipsum aspicere, ut tota 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉, in Deum Auctorem illius 〈◊〉, nullam vero corporalem Adorationem aut submissionis notam in eum dirigerent. Quare quando Ezechias ipsum confregit, quod videret ei incensum adoleri, cum tamen in solam memoriam praeteriti beneficij a Deo accepti, in populo illo seruaretur, non ideo fecit, quia existimaret à populo pro Deo iam coli & adorari, sed quod aliquem cultum, qualem etiam imaginibus deferre nos consuevimus, qui omnino erat populo illi prohibitus, videret ei adhiberi. Adolebant enim illi incensum, nec aliam causam, ob quam Ezechias ipsum confregit Scriptura nobis exposuit: at incensi oblatio non est 〈◊〉 sacrificium soli Deo debitum, sed quae etiam rebus inanimis, aut imaginibus 〈◊〉. . In like sort, the Paschall Lamb was a figure of Christ, joh. 1. 29. & cap. 19 36. and yet no holy 〈◊〉 kissed, or saluted, or censed, or bowed down to the Paschall Lamb. The Cherubins (according to our Adversary's Tenet) were Images, and yet they were never honoured or adored with kissing, kneeling, Incense, or any other sign, in special directed to them. And if any man (saith Vasques b Vasques, d. Ador. lib. 2. Disp. 4. cap. 6. n. 101. Nunquam Cherubinis, aut ex 〈◊〉 fusili, aut ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a summo 〈◊〉 ingrediente semel in anno 〈◊〉, honorem aut 〈◊〉 adhibitam fuisse, aut osculo, aut genuflexione, aut oblatione thuris, aut alio signo peculiari ad ipsos 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illius 〈◊〉 & venerationem, in 〈◊〉 ipsam & propitiatorium, tanquam in Thronum & suppedaneum 〈◊〉 Dei fuisse relatam: ita ut signa honoris externa, 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, animus autem Sacerdotis in Deum, qui ibi sedebat, & responsa dabat, non in Angelos ipsos, qui erant exemplaria illarum figurarum, esset 〈◊〉. Nec quisquam nisi ex 〈◊〉 cerebro, & absque ullo 〈◊〉, contrarium poterit affirmare. Tho-Aquin. 1.2. q. 102. ar. 4. ad. 6. Similitudines Seraphin non ponebantur ad cultum, quod prohibebatur primo Legis praecepto, sed in signum ministerij. Tertull. c. Martion. lib. 2. cap. 22. Sic & Cherubin & Seraphin, aurea in Arcam, figuratum exemplum, certe simplex ornamentum, accommodata suggestui, etc. Vasq. in 3. p. Thom. 〈◊〉. 1. q. 25. 〈◊〉 3. Disp. 104. cap. 6. Quo loco non docet Tertullianus, ut falso Pamelius putavit in vetere Lege solum esse prohibitum similitudines & effigies pro Dijs adorari, etc. pag. 996. ) hold otherwise, it is a conceit of his own brain, having no foundation. It is not necessary therefore (according to the Law of Nature) but at the furthest contingent, to exhibit the same outward Actions of Honour, Love, Reverence, and Obeisance to Figures, and Images, which belong to the Principal. In civil Comportment, it is lawful, and in some cases, it is a matter of duty, to be uncovered, and to use reverence in the King's Chamber of Presence, and before his Chair of Estate, when his Person is absent: but these and the like Actions, exceed not the bounds of civil Observance. In the Church (which is God's house) we uncover our heads, and we kneel, and make Obeisance before the Altar, or Communion Table; not to the figure of the Temple, or to the Table, materially or formally considered, but to Christ himself. And when we worship towards the East (as the ancient Christians did c Orig. sup. Num. Hom. 5. Tertull. Apol. c. 16. justin. ad Orthod. q. 118. 〈◊〉. d. plur. & necess. Quest. q. 14. Greg. Nissen. li. d. Orat. Basil. d. Spirit. sanct. c. 27. August. serm. in Mont. li. 2. c. 19 〈◊〉. Orthod. fid. li. 4. c. 13. ) if there be a Crucifix painted in the Window, for Ornament, or Memory, we direct no part of our Obeisance to that painted Image, but to our blessed Saviour, who hath visited us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as the Day, or Eastern Light, from on high, Luc. 1. 78. And it is so far from being universally true, that the Image is to be taken for the Prototype, that in some cases we may adore the one, and deface and abolish the other, as appear in the Brazen Serpent. If (saith Alphonsus Castro a Alphons. Castro. c. Haer. lib. 8. verb. Imago. Si ergo populus Christianus, esset nunc aeque pronus ad 〈◊〉, ut tunc fuit populus Israel, nec aliter posset ab errore revocari, quam imaginibus confractis, crederem eas merito debere 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉, in 3. q. 27. ar. 8. Quamuis imaginum usus 〈◊〉 bonus, & Ecclesiae vulis, si tamen inde Idololatria ita oriri cognosceretur, ut ei communi pesti aliter occurri non possit, nisi imaginibus deletis, essent procul dubio illae iudicio & praecepto Maiorum delendae. Cordub. Questionar. q. 5. dub. 5. p. 84. ) Christian people were in our days as prone to Idolatry, as the people of Israel then were, and that they could not otherwise be reclaimed, I should think, that Images were to be broken in pieces. The same is affirmed by Corduba and Tapia. Jesuit. This is the Axiom of Philosophy, gathered out of Aristotle, Idem est motus in imaginem & exemplar: Aristotl. lib. d. Memor. D. Thom. 3. q. 25. Ar. 4. For Motion proceeding from the body and from the mind, what the body doth really and externally to the Image, the mind doth imaginarily, that is, by conceit and affection to the person. ANSWER. Principles of Nature, containing themselves within their own bounds, are to be embraced; but sacred and religious Actions are regulated by a Divine and supernatural Model a Ambros. d. Incarn. & Sacrament. c. 9 Verba Philosophorum excludit simplex veritas piscatorum. August. d. verb. Apost. ser. 29. Non 〈◊〉 in hac re & in hac controversia ad literas seculares, nec inter nos iudicet poeta, sed Propheta. Tertull. d. Resur. Carnis. Est quidem de communibus sensibus sapere in Dei rebus, sed in testimonium veri, non in adiutorium falsi. , 1. Cor. 2. 5, 6, 9 etc. The Word of God hath set a black mark upon Images devised by man, when they are applied to worship. And therefore, although in humane and civil use, the Image might in some sort stand for the Prototype, and by imagination be taken, and used, as the person resembled by it, yet in things religious, and sacred, it is otherwise. When the Israelites form and worshipped a Golden Calf, they might by conceit and imagination apprehend and worship the true God; but this imagination and apprehension was not sufficient to justify their Action. Men may in their own wisdom and intention conceive and worship Images, and other Signs, as if they were one and the same thing with that which is the proper object of Worship; but when they conjoin that which God hath divided, their foolish and erroneous fancy and imagination maketh not their Actions lawful, or pleasing to God. Aristotle in the place objected (d. Memor. cap. 1. in fine) affirmeth not, either verbally, or in sense, that there is the same motion of the Conceit, and Affection, a Medin. Tr. d. Orat. q. 2. Gabr. 3. d. 9 & in Can. Miss. Lect. 50. Cordub. Quaest 5. dub. 1. pag. 〈◊〉. Adoratio formaliter non est actus intellectus, etc. Peres. Aiala. d. Trad. p. 3. d. Imag. Aristoteles solum dicit, duplicem esse cognitionem imaginis, aliud tamen ubi dixerit non vidi. Et quamuis res ita se haberet, quod eadem cognitione feramur in imaginem, & rem imaginatam, non inde concluditur, idem fieri posse in adoratione & veneratione: Est enim maxima dissimilitudo inter hoc & illud. into the external Image, and the Sampler: for he speaketh not of painted or carved Images, but of the mental Image and impression which remaineth in the memory, after the knowledge of things past: And many Schoolmen deny, that Aristotle's testimony, is truly applied to Aquinas his manner of worshipping Images; among which, are Durand b Durand. 3. d. 9 q. 2. n. 9 , Picus Mirandula c Pic. Mirand. Apolog. q. 3. , 〈◊〉 d Tapia, in 3. q. 27. ar. 10. Procul dubio, Scholastici qui eam propositionem modo exposito explicaverunt, non consuluerunt textum Aristotelis. , Vasques e Vasq. d. Ador. lib. 2. Disp. 8. cap. 7. n. 317. Illa sententia, quam S. Tho. ex Aristotele desumpsit: Idem est motus in imaginem, & rem cuius est Imago, alium quidem sensum habet, etc. Quocirca perperam quidam recentiores putant, eodem modo se habere in adoratione, imaginem depictam, sicut se verbum habet interius. , etc. It is also apparently false, that there is the same motion of the mind and will into the Image, and the Sampler, for these are every way two distinct Objects, and the one is a sign, and the other a thing signified; the one is the cause, the other the thing caused; and in some Images, the Sampler is a nature increate, the Image considered as an Image, and in relation to the Prototype, is a thing created: the one is adored, because of itself, the other respectively, because of the Sampler. And therefore, for as much as the Object is diverse, and the manner of the Action is diverse, the motion of man's heart towards the Image, and the Sampler, cannot be one motion, but diverse; even as when I desire the means, because of the end, here are two distinct Actions f Tapia, in 3. Thom. q. 27. 〈◊〉. 10. Non est idem actus voluntatis, quo ferimur in finem, & in media ad finem. Vnus enim est electio, alter simplex voluntatis affectus. Greg. Arim. 1. d. 1. q. 2. Marsil. 1. q. 4. ar. 1. du. 2. Vasq. 1. 2. q. 8. Disp. 33. cap. 2. August. d. Trinit. Lib. 11. cap. 6. , and motions, to wit, Election and Intention. Jesuit. This Axiom of Philosophy (that no man think it disavowed in Theologie) the ancient Fathers uniformly teach, as a prime truth, evident in reason; S. Damascen a Lib. 4. c. 12. , S. Augustine b De Doctr. Christ. lib. 3. c. 9 , S. Ambrose c Lib. de Dom. Incat. Sacram. c. 7. , S. Basil d De Spiritu Sancto; c. 18. , S. Athanasius e Serm. 4. contra Atianas'. , who writes, An Image of the King is nothing else but the form and shape of the King; which (could it speak) would and might say, I and the King are one, the King is in me, and I in him: so that who adoreth me, his Image, doth therein adore the very King: Thus he showing, that the King's Image is to be imagined, and by imagination, conceived and honoured as the very King. ANSWER. You affirm, That the ancient Fathers uniformly teach, and that as a prime truth, That the Image may and aught to stand for the Prototype, and is by imagination to be taken as if it were the very Person; and consequently, that it is jointly to be worshipped. First, you say, the ancient Fathers teach this Doctrine uniformly: secondly, you add, That they teach this as a prime Truth. But to prove the first, you produce only five Testimonies of Fathers, of which, one is not very ancient; and touching the latter, you bring nothing. The Testimonies of the Fathers examined. First, Damascene, d. Fid. lib. 4. cap. 12. saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, where his sign is, there is Christ, to wit, by operation and grace. First, this Author lived 740 years after Christ, and is none of the ancient Fathers: Secondly, it is confessed by yourselves, that he was not Orthodoxal in all points: For (as Cardinal Bellarmine saith f Bell. d. Script. Eccles. in joh. Damasc. pag. 269. lib. 1. d. Fid. Orthod. cap. 11. Docet Spiritum sanctum non procedere ex Filio, sed per Filium. Palacius, 〈◊〉. Quaest in 1. Lib. Sent. B. Damascenus manifestarium habuit lapsum, etc. pag. 21. ) he denied the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son; and in the matter of Images, he differeth from the ancient, which were before him. Secondly, Saint Augustine a Aug. sub signo seruit, qui operatur aut veneratur aliquam rem fignificantem, nesciens quid fignificet. Qui vero aut operatur, aut veneratur utile fignum divinitus institutum, culus vim significationemque intelligit, non hoc veneratur quod videtur & transit, sed illud potius, quo talia cuncta reserenda sunt. d. Doctr. Christ. l. 3. c. 9 saith, He which useth or worshippeth any profitable sign, being of divine Institution, understanding the virtue and signification thereof, worshippeth not that which is visible and transeunt, but that rather, whereunto all such things are referred. But Popish Images, appointed for Worship, are no Sacraments, or Ceremonies, or Signs of Divine Institution, but humane Traditions, condemned by Saint Augustine b Aug. d. Haeres— haeres. 7. Id. Epist. 49. & sup. Psal. 113. , both among Christians and Pagans. Thirdly, Saint Ambros. c Ambros. Nunquid cum & 〈◊〉 eius adoramus, & carnem, Christum dividimus? Nunquid cum in eo imaginem, crucemque veneramur, dividimus 〈◊〉 d. Dom. Incarn. Sacram. c. 7. saith, When we adore his Divinity and his flesh, do we divide Christ? When we worship in him the Image of God, and the Cross, do we divide him? This Father speaketh not of any Painted Image of God, but of the invisible Image d Caietan. sup. Col. 1. Deitatem invisibilem accepit filius à Patre. , Col. 1.15. Heb. 1.3. And by the Cross, he understandeth the Passion of Christ e Bellarm. d. imag. c. 24. Dico Ambrosum, per crucem intelligere passionem Christi, sive carnem patientem, sicut per imaginem Dei, intelligit dietatem. , as appeareth in his next words, Etsi crucifixus est, etc. Saint Basil and Saint Athanasius, spoke by way of similitude, not of all Images, but of the Images of Kings f Basil. d. spir. sanct. c. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Athanas. c. Arian. Orat. 4. pag. 254. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , which sometimes, not always, in Civil use and custom, not in Religion, may be taken, and reverenced for the principal. But from a particular, and from a similitude, which halteth in many things g Ib. pag. 256. Non aliter quam si quis, per diurnum tempus, sole iam lucente, lignum temere depingat, in quo ne imaginaria quidem species lucis appareat, asseratque hoc lignum authorem esse diurni luminis, Sol contra id videns occlamet ego solus sum diurna lux, neque est alia lux preter me, non respectu sui iubaris illud dixerit, sed ob Ligneae imaginis imposturam & 〈◊〉 vanissimae apparentiae. , you cannot conclude generally and absolutely. Where is now the uniform consent of Fathers, which the Adversary glorieth in? Damascene is not ancient. Saint Augustine speaketh of signs which have divine institution. Saint Ambrose, of Christ his Passion, and not of Statues or Pictures. Saint Basil and Athanasius, speak by similitude, obiter, and by the way. But which of these affirms, that Image Worship is a prime verity? But that the Reader may the better conceive the weight of the Adversary's Disputation, for Worship of Images, I will exhibit the same in a Logical Resolution. The Theme or Question is, Whether artificial Images of Christ, and of the Saints are to be worshipped. The first ground and Argument for the Affirmative, is: If the Samplers themselves are to be worshipped, than the Images being 〈◊〉 3. q. 25. 〈◊〉. 3. Disp. 3. 〈◊〉. 4. lively Portraitures, and representations of those Samplers, are to be worshipped. The Consequence is denied, for besides that all Images, and among the rest, the Images of Christ, are not lively Portraitures of Christ, but dead shadows, and imperfect and confuled delineations of his humanity a Euseb. Caesar. Epist. ad Constantiam. August. Quoniam de Christi Imagine ad me scripsisti, ut tibi mitterem; velim mihi significes, quamnam putes Christi Imaginem, utrumillam veram & incommutabilem, naturae illius Characterem ferentem, aut hanc quam propter nos assumpsit, seruilem sormam pro nobis induens, sed sanè de divina forma, non arbitror etiam ipse ego, te essesollicitam, cum fueris ab illo edocta, neminem patrem cognovisse, nisi qui illum genuit patrem, sed 〈◊〉 serui requiris, Imaginem 〈◊〉, & carnem quam propter nos induit. Sed & hanc gloria Dietatis suae commistam esse didicimus, & passam mortuamque. Quis igitur gloriae eiuscemodi, & dignitatis splendores lucentes & fulgurantes effigiare mortuis & inanimatis coloribus, & umbratili pictura possit, cum neque divini illius discipuli in monte illum contemplari quiverint, qui cadentes in faciem suam non posse se eiuscemodi spectaculum inspicere confessi sunt. Igitur si carnis illius figura tantam ab inhabitante in ea divinitate accepit potentiam, quid oportet dicere tunc cum mortalitatem eruit & corruptionem abluens formam serui in Domini & Dei gloriam transtulit? post mortis scilicet victoriam, post ascensum in caelos, post cum patre regio in throno à dexteris consessum, post requiem in ineffabilibus, & innominandis finibus patris, in quam ascendentem & desidentem coelestes potestates illi bonedictis vocibus acclamabant, dicentes Principes tollite portas vestras, aperiamini portae caelestes: in troibit Rex gloriae. : yet whatsoever they are artificially, and by humane constitution, they are not to be worshipped Religiously, because no divine Institution or Authority permitteth man so to do: and on the contrary part, divine Precept extant in the Moral Law, prohibiteth the doing hereof. OBJECTION II. If the Image represent the Sampler, and stand for it, and by conceit and imagination is one with it, than it may, and aught to be worshipped, etc. But the first is true, etc. If the Argument be thus resolved, the sequel is false; for that which representeth another, and standeth for another, and is by imagination another, partaketh not all the Rites and duties of that which it representeth: but such only, as by lawful ordination, and by the nature of his kind, it is capable of: but Painted and Carved Images, neither by the nature of their kind b Cluniaces. d. ven. Crucis pa. 54. Irrationali honorem vel modicum exhibere, & authoritas prohibet, & ratio disuadet. , being things senseless, liveless, and destitute of Grace, nor yet by any divine Ordination, are capable of Adoration. The brazen Serpent was a figure and Image of Christ crucified, it did represent the Sampler, and stand for it, and by conceit and imagination of the faithful beholder, it was one with Christ, to wit, by Relation as a sign with the thing signified: yet it being not appointed by God to be worshipped, nor being capable of worship, according to the nature and quality of his kind, the Israelites committed Idolatry, in worshipping and burning Incense to it. OBJECTION III. There is the same motion of the mind, into the Image and the Sampler, as we may perceive by the Image of the King. There is not the same motion, etc. but a divers: for the mind is fixed upon the Image, as upon a Sign, and as upon an Object inferior to the Sampler: and if there be the same Motion in any person towards the Image and the Sampler, the same proceedeth upon error, and is a false imagination, neither doth the Image of a King a Hieron. sup. Daniel. 3. ludices & Principes seculi, qui Imperatorum statuas adorant, hoc se facere intelligant, quod hic pueri facere nolentes, placuerunt Deo. stand for a very King, but for asigne and representation. And if there were the same motion of the mind, into the Image and the Sampler, yet it is inconsequent to say, there must be the same Adoration (as Peresius Aiala b Peres. d. Trad. p. 3. d. imag. Quamuis res se ita haberet, quod eadem cognitione feramur in Imaginem & rem imaginatam, non inde concluditur, idem fieri posse in Adoratione & veneratione: est enim maxima dissimilitudo inter hoc & illud. hath observed.) Jesuit. With this Principle so received in Nature, we must join another, no less known and notorious in Christianity, to wit, That God full of all honour and glory, to whom all Worship and Adoration is due, became truly and verily man, as visible and aspectable as any other man, and consequently, as imaginable, that he may be figured by an Image, no less truly and distinctly than another man. ANSWER. When Christ lived upon the earth, and was conversant with men, john 1. 14. he might then perhaps (if Divine providence had permitted) have been figured, according to something which was visible in his humane Body: I say, if Divine Providence had permitted, because for prevention of Idolatry and Superstition, it fell out in this case, as it did with the body of Moses a 〈◊〉. sup. 1. Timoth. c. 2. disp. 〈◊〉. Erat olim periculum Idolola triae: Vndè etiàm sublatus fuit Imaginum usus, & corpus Mosis ob 〈◊〉 causam occultatum fuit. pa. 473. Aug. d. Mirab. sacr. Script. lib. 1. c. 35. Duabus de causis ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conscius erat, quatenùs illam faciem, quae consortio sermonis Domini rutilaverat, mortis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, nullus videret. Et nè sepulchrum eius, populus Israel si cognovisset ubi esset adoraret. Procopius in 〈◊〉. cap. 〈◊〉. Divina dispositione hoc quoquè factum, ne forte eum suspicientes adorarent. . And because this was not then performed, either by his own, or by his Apostles appointment, we can have no certainty, that the after painting and figuring of him, is a convenient means whereby to honour him, and to cause devotion, or that Pictures and Images whereby he hath been figured in latter ages, are agreeable to the sampler. Jesuit. In which Image, the hands, feet, and other parts shall truly by imagination correspond unto the feet, bands, and parts of the Prototype, and our imaginations from 〈◊〉 pass directly unto Christ and his parts, proportionable to those we behold in the Image; so that when we adore with an humble outward kiss, the hands and feet of the Image, by inward imagination, conceit, and affection, we kiss and adore the imagined true hands and feet of Christ. Neither are these imaginations false and erroneous, seeing (as Philosophy teacheth) no falsehood is in mere apprehension or imagination, without judging the thing to be as we imagine. As in contemplation, men represent and imagine themselves as standing before God's Throne, in the Court of Heaven, amidst the quires of Saints and Angels, praising and honouring him in their society, not judging themselves to be truly and really in Heaven, (that were a falsehood and dotage) but only 〈◊〉 in themselves such a presence, and 〈◊〉 themselves outwardly and inwardly in Psalm. 41. Bernard Serm. de quatuor modis orandi. prayer, as if they were present: to which kind of imaginations, as pious and godly, the Scriptures and Fathers exhort us. In this sort, beholding the Image of Christ, we apprehend him as therein present; not judging the Image to be Christ, but imagining and taking it as it were Christ, that when we outwardly honour the Image by kissing the hands and feet thereof, mentally by imagination and humble affection of reverence, we adore and kiss the most venerable hands and feet of his precious body. ANSWER. It is possible for imagination to build castles in the air, and to conceive the person of Christ, as present to his Image: yet if this imagination be fantastical, and if in adoration, Christ and Images have no agreement, 2. Cor. 6.16. then worshipping of Images, is not worshipping of Christ; for it is possible to imagine God to be in the Sun, and to behold the Sun as God's Image a Aug. sup. Psal, 103. c. 3. , yet they which upon such an imagination, should worship the Sun, which God hath not commanded, must be ranked amongst false worshippers, Deut. 4.19. & 17.3. job. 31.26. And whereas the Obiector addeth, that according to Philosophy, no falsehood is in mere apprehension or imagination b Aug. d. Ver. Relig. c. 55. Non sit nobis 〈◊〉, in 〈◊〉 ' nostris, etc. 〈◊〉. Epist. 85. 〈◊〉 carnalis compositionem, 〈◊〉 fermentú, ubi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 incipit, continuò intus illo adiwante atquè illuminante, qui cum talibus Idolis in cord nostro habitare nòn vult, ità ista confringere & à fide nostra excutere festinemus, & nè 〈◊〉 quidem 〈◊〉 talium phantasmatum illic remanere patiamur. , without judging the thing to be, as we imagine. I answer, That this being granted concerning fictions c Aug. Quest. sup. Euang. li. 2. c. 51. Nòn omne quod fingimus mendatium est, etc. Fictio quae ad aliquam veritatem refertur figura est, etc. Aquin. p. 3. q. 55. ar. 4. ad. 1. , yet upon such imagination, there may follow, or be inferred that which is false, or morally evil: to wit, if one imagine the Sun, or a Lamb to be the figure of Christ, and, because in holy Scriptures he is compared to these creatures, Mal. 4.2. john 1.29. conceive them as his image, shall it hereupon be lawful by one and the same motion of the cogitation and affection, to worship the creatures with their Creator? But that the solution of the former Argument may be more perspicuous, I will present the same in form, and then apply mine answer. If by imagination we may truly conjoin Christ himself Henriquez. Sum. Theol. Mor. li. 8. ca 32. Quarè ex patribus sumpsit Caietanus, dicens Imago Christi, est ipse Christus, tùm quoad rationem formalem terminandi, tú quià Christus simul est ultimus terminus. Non est Christus in esse real, sed intentionali, ut verbum dicitur terminus, & dicitur ipsa res cognita in esse intensionali, & 〈◊〉 ordinis cum re: sic Imago Christi est eiusdem ordinis divini, ut si 〈◊〉 species Dei in beatis. with his Image, then upon that imagination, we may coworship Christ, and his Image: But the first may be done, for he being incarnate, may be figured in the Image of a man, and being thus figured, may be presented to the understanding, and people may imagine him as present, in, or by his Image. Ergo, Upon that imagination, we may worship Christ and his Image. Both the assumpsition, and also the sequel of this Argument, are denied. First, taking truly, for that which is really true, we cannot by imagination so conjoin Christ and his painted Image, as that we may conceive them to be one terminative object, of worship, for the reasons formerly delivered. Neither is the Picture or Image of any other person the terminative object of Love, Reverence, or Worship, but only a motive, and sign of remembrance, upon aspect whereof, followeth the former actions (inward or outward) of Love, Reverence, or Worship, not towards the Image, but towards the principal. Secondly, it is inconsequent to argue, that because some people imagine the Image and the sampler as things conjoined, therefore they may coworship them; for religious adoration primary or secondary, is not founded upon every kind of union, as appeareth in mental Images a Apud Cabrer. Internae Imagines multo 〈◊〉 representant ipsum exemplar, quam Imagines externae, 〈◊〉 istae solum representant corporis lineamenta, conceptus vero naturam specificam ipsius rei viventis. , but upon certain kinds of union, to wit: First, Personal, as when the Humanity of Christ is coupled with the Deity: Secondly, Substantial, as where the parts are coupled with the whole: Thirdly, Causal, Relative, or Accidental, to wit, when by divine ordination, things created are made instruments, messengers, signs, or receptacles of divine grace, as the holy Sacraments, and the Word and Gospel, and the Ministers of the Church, etc. Christ himself is present, assistant, and operative, in and by these instruments, and hath commanded reverence to be used towards them, accounting the love, faith, and honour which are yielded to his created Word, to be love, faith, and honour to himself b Ambros. Ep. 26. Domino defertur cum seruul' honoratur, etc. Greg. sup. Reg. lib. 5. ca 1. Quam reverendi sunt optimi Pastores sanctae Ecclesiae liquet. Dum enim Deo fidelitèr seruiunt tantò ci amoris vinculo coniunguntur ut quicquid ois ingeritur, divinae iniuriae ascribatur. , Math. 10.14.42. 2. Cor. 8.5. Gal. 4.14. Act. 10.34. But Papistical fancy and imagination, produceth none of these, nor yet any other true kind of union, neither hath God almighty in his word commanded duty, service, or worship to be given unto them; but on the contrary, by the Doctrine of holy Scripture, he condemneth the same. Jesuit. The Histories of Christian Antiquity, are full of holy men, Bishops, Kings, Queens, and other honourable personages, who have cast themselves down on the ground before Beggars, Lazars, and Lepers, kissing their feet, and D. Harpsfield Hist. Eccles. Angl. their sores, out of venerable affection unto Christ. In which kind, memorable is the Charity of the famous Queen Mathildes, daughter of Malcolm King of Scotland, and wife to Henry the first of England, whose custom was to wash with her own hands the feet of poor people, amongst whom some were Lepers, and had loathsome diseases, not disdaining with great reverence on her knees to kiss their feet with her princely lips. And when as the prince of Scotland her brother being then in the Court of England, entering into her chamber, found her employed in so humble a service, astonished thereat, rebuked her, saying, Sister what do you? can you with those your defiled lips kiss the king your husband? She answered, Know brother, that the feet of the king of Heaven are more lovely and venerable than are the lips of an earthly king. Certainly this queen with all other addicted to the like devotion, when they kissed the feet of the poor outwardly with their lips, did by imagination full of reverend affection, kiss the feet of Christ jesus, taking the poor as Images of him, who said, What you do to one of Math. 25. v. 40. my least ones, you do unto me. ANSWER. There is great disparity between reasonable creatures, the living members of Christ, the spiritual temples of the holy Ghost, and between dead and senseless stocks a 〈◊〉. Rom. Recog. lib. 5. Si vere vultis honorare Imaginem Dei, nos vobis quid yerum est aperimus, ut homini qui ad Imaginem Dei factus est, benè saciatis, honorem & reverentiam deferatis. Quis ergo iste Dei honor est, per lapideas & ligneas formas 〈◊〉 & inanes atquè exanimes figuras, tamquam numina venerari, & hominem in quo vere Imago Dei est spernere. , which have eyes and see not, ears and hear not, noses and smell not. Beggars, Lazars, Lepers, etc. are recommended to the world by our Saviour, joh. 12.8. Luc. 14.21. and they are said to honour their Maker, which are charitable to them, Pro. 14.31. and he promiseth infinite reward to them which love and honour the poor. Where (I pray you) hath our Saviour said of Images of stone, wood, etc. nay of puppets, and pranked babies, What you do to one of these my least ones, you do unto me? Surely the clothing, censing, bowing, pilgrimage going to Images devised by man's brain, hath neither precept, promise, example, or praise in all God's Book, neither is there any dignity or excellency in them, formally, or accidentally, which may equal them to the meanest reasonable creature. An Idol * Bellarm. d. Imag. li. 2. c. 8. 〈◊〉 pro eodem habet Idolum & Imaginem. Tertul. d. Idol. c. 4. Durand. Rational li. 1. c. 3. Vbi 〈◊〉 Idolorum 〈◊〉 usus reprobatur, moderatus probatur. Caietan. in Exod. c. 20. Perspicuum est in Tabernaculo fuisse Idola cherubinorum, etc. Id. in Deut. c. 4. Ex co quod nulla Dei similitudo visa est, quandò Deus locutus est, movet ut nullum Idolum colatur, nulla similitudo cuiusquè rei naturalis, nec ulla res corporea. (saith S. Augustine b Aug. d. ver. Dom. Serm. 5. Idolum opus est fabri, si faber Idolo sicut dedit figuram, cor daret, ab ipso Idolo faber adoraretur. Jdem. sup. Psalm. 149. Melior est faber quam quod fabricat faber. Si fabrum adorare 〈◊〉, adorando quod faber fecit non erubescis? Idem d. ver Relig. c. 55. & in Psal. 118. ) is the workmanship of an artificer, and if this maker, as he hath bestowed figure, so he could have given understanding to his creature, he should himself receive honour from the Image which he hath form. And in another place, the Artificer is better than that which himself formeth: Why art thou then ashamed to worship the Carpenter, and dost not rather blush when thou adorest that which he hath form? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, (saith Athanasius a 〈◊〉. Orat. c. gent. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ) That which formeth another, is better than the thing which is form. Jesuit. Out of this, the common Objection of Protestants, to wit, That the worship of Christ's Image is no where commanded in Scripture, and therefore is a will Worship; may be answered. For as themselves confess, many Actions belonging D. Field, lib. 4. of the Church, cap. 17. to Religion, whereof there is no express Precept, nor any practice in Scripture, may be used, when there be Principles in Scripture, which prove the lawfulness and necessity thereof. There is no express Precept in Scripture to Christian Jnfants; nor is it there read, that ever any were Christened: yet because there be Testimonies, which joined with reason, prove the lawfulness and necessity of this Baptism, we may and must use it. In Scripture, there is no express Practice nor Precept of worshipping the Image of Christ, yet there be Principles, which (the light of Nature supposed) convince such Adoration to be lawful. ANSWER. Protestant's object against Adoration of Images, not only that the same is no where commanded in Scripture, but that it is prohibited, and condemned, Levit. 26.1. Neither by Commandment, understand we express and literal Precept only, but derivative and virtual. And could Papists demonstrate the lawfulness of this Action, by divine or supernatural testimony, immediate or derivative, in such manner as the Baptism of Infants b Bellar. d. Bapt. l. 1. c. 9 Colligitur satis apertè ex Scriptures. Ib. ad. 8. Arg. Deducitur evidenter ex Scriptures. is proved to be lawful and necessary, we must approve the practice thereof. Jesuit. For Christ being true God full of honour, to whom all supreme adoration is due, doth and must needs make honourable and adorable anything that represents him, that is which must be taken by imagination as if it were his 〈◊〉. But supposing God to be truly man (as Faith teacheth) the light of nature showeth that his image truly represents him, that is, makes him present to the imaginations of the beholders thereof, and stands for him. Ergo, Christ jesus his image is for his sake venerable and adorable as a thing standing for him in such sort, that the honour done outwardly to it, is done, and aught to be taken as done, by devout and pious imagination to his person, whence further is concluded the necessity of this worship. ANSWER. The Mayor Proposition is denied. For although Christ be true God full of honour, yet he imparteth not his honour in whole or in part to every thing, which man appointeth to be a representation of him, but only to such things as have some excellency in them, proceeding from his own ordinance, and influence into them. Neither is it in the power of men 〈◊〉 their own Imaginations, either to form representations of Christ, capable of honour; or when they have form them, to appoint that they must be honoured and adored b Tertul. d. Idol c. 5. Ne facias adversus legem simulacrhum aliquod nisi & tibi Deus iusserit. Si nulla lex Dei prohibuisset Idola fieri à nobis, nulla vox spiritus sancti fabricatoribus Idolorum, non minùs quam cultoribus, comminaretur. . For if the Subjects of secular Princes, cannot without special commission, advance even worthy persons, to dignities and honourable places in the Commonwealth, much less are mortal men able, to derive the honours which Christ is Lord of, to what they please, and to invest their own handy work with Christ's honour. Jesuit. For God incarnate being most venerable and full of glory, requires of a Christian, that that which stands for him and represents him, be honoured and adored for his sake. ANSWER. Not every thing which stands for him, and represents him, according to the devices and imaginations of men, no nor every thing that represents, and stands for him, according to his own precept, is to be adored with divine honour, as it is manifest in the brazen Serpent. Jesuit. If the honour due to a King be so great, that the same redounds from his person to things about him; as to his chair of State (which is honoured with the like bowing and kneeling that is used to his person, and to his image, unto which whosoever offereth iviury is punishable, as offering injury to the King himself) shall not the honour due to Christ jesus infinitely greater, so flow out of his person unto things that belong and concern him, as to make his Image, Cross, and such holy monuments of his passion and life, venerable for his sake, and to be adored with bowing, kneeling, and other exterior honour, as would be used to his person were he visibly present? (not so, that the worship rest in the image, but be referred by imagination and affection to the person imagined.) ANSWER. This similitude halteth: for the King's chair of State, and his image, when they are honoured or dishonoured, are conjoined with his Person, by civil ordinance and relation: but the artificial image of Christ and of his Cross, etc. are not conjoined with Christ, by divine ordination, or by relation grounded upon Christ's word, but by an imaginary act of the superstitious worshipper; also civil and religious worship, are of diverse beginnings, and forms, and every thing that is possible, lawful and commendable, in the one, is not so in the other. Jesuit. But the image of Christ being a true representation of God incarnate, and able to convey our imaginations directly and truly towards him, 〈◊〉 very 〈◊〉 unto the parts of his sacred person, hath 〈◊〉 right in reason and nature, which cannot be taken from it, to represent him, and to stand in our imaginations for him. Wherefore the image of Christ hath a right, which without impiety cannot be denied unto it, to be honoured and outwardly adored for his sake, by kneel, bowings, 〈◊〉 and kiss, referred in mind by devout thoughts and affections, to his person. ANSWER. Is the painted image a true representation of Christ incarnate, because Romists say so? and were it a true representation, is it therefore impiety to refuse to worship it? Many Doctors, both of the Roman, and of other Churches, have allowed and maintained the Historical use of images, which condemned adoration a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Annal. p. 1. Carolusrex Francorum misit Synodalem librum ad Britanniam, sibi a Constantinopoli directum: in quo proh dolour multa inconuenientia & verae fidel contraria reperiebantur. Maximè quod penè omnium orientalium Doctotum, non minus quam trecentorum, vel 〈◊〉 amplius, episcoporum unanimi assertione confirmamatum fuerit, jmagines adorari debere, quod omninó Ecclesia Dei execratur. Agobard d. picked. & imag Habuerunt antiqui sanctorum imagines vel pictas vel sculptas, sed , non ad colendum. Nullus Catholicorum antiquorum unquam eas colendas vel adorandas forté existimavit. Durand. Rational. Diu. li. 4. c. 39 attendant quid agant, qui sub praetextu, cuiusdam Religionis seu pietatis diversas adorant imagines, non enim 〈◊〉 aliquid manu factum adorare. Andr. Masius. Com. josh. 22. v. 28. Sacrosancta Ecclesia nobis antè oculos ponit Crucis Christi figuram, etc. non 〈◊〉 eam adoremus, sed ut dum aspicimus in memoriam redeamus verae 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 arae, in qua sacerdos sec. ord. Melchizedech, Deique silius seipsum gratissimam patri pro nobis victinam obtulit. . And if it be outwardly to be adored for Christ's sake, why is it not inwardly also to be adored? And if inwardly, then either with the same worship, wherewith Christ himself is adored, or with inferior; not with the same, for then a creature which is not personally united to the Creator, may be honoured as God. If with inferior, then either with inferior honour belonging to the person represented, but there is none such, or with the honour of some other person: but this cannot be, because the image of Christ hath reference to no other person but Christ. And if the painted images of Christ, and the wooden Cross whereupon he was crucified, were to be adored with 〈◊〉 honour, absolute or respective, much more were the lively images of Christ, to wit, the blessed Saints, so to be adored, and the blessed Virgin, above all other, because she was more nearly conjoined to him than the wooden Crosse. Jesuit. And this right is a dignity which an image of Christ hath above other creatures, who though they be referred unto God as to their Author, yet God may not be honoured in them in that manner, as Christ is honoured in his image. ANSWER. This Idolist, heapeth conclusion upon conclusion, but he groundeth them, either upon no premises, or upon such as are sandy. How doth it appear, that an image of Christ figured by a Roman Painter, hath a dignity above other creatures? Are Roman Painters more excellent workmen than God himself? Hath a dead picture, and worm-eaten statue, greater dignity, than the lively images of Christ, to wit the Saints which are upon earth, and 〈◊〉 in virtue a 〈◊〉. d. picked. ad imag. Si opera 〈◊〉 Dei non sunt adoranda & colenda, nec in honore Dei, 〈◊〉 magis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hominum non sunt adoranda, & colenda, nec in honore 〈◊〉 quorum similitudines esse dicuntur. pag. 213. ? How much more worthy to be believed, is the saying of Clement b Clem. Rom. Recog. li. 5. p. 73. ? If you desire, truly to honour the image of God, let me open the truth to you, Rather yield honour and reverence to man, form after the image of God, than to empty and breathless figures. Jesuit. The reason is, because creatures represent God their Author, so rudely, remotely, darkly, imperfectly, that only spiritual men, and perfect Contemplants, can acknowledge God in them: and so, such men only, and that only privately to themselves, may worship God in and by them, which is all that Vasq. (so much accused) doth teach. But as for public and promiscuous adoring of creatures, he Gab. Vasquez. de Adoratione. li. 3. cap. 2. condemns it as undecent and scandalous, saying expressly, that Indiscriminatim creaturas adorandas proponere, esset multis manifesta causa periculi. In which respect Saint Leo reprehends some Christians at Rome, that bowed unto the Sun mentally referring that bowing, 〈◊〉 Serm. 7. de 〈◊〉. Dom. unto God the Author thereof; because paynims seeing that outward action of adoring, might imagine, that Christians adored the sun in their superstitious manner; the relation which the sun hath to God as to his Creator, not being evident unto sight. But the image of Christ, as I said, is apparently so representative of Christ, that upon sight thereof, our thoughts fly presently to him, and his picture is no sooner in our eyes, than his person by imagination in our mind; neither is there any excellency appearing in the picture, worthy to be adored, or sufficient to stay our thoughts and affections in it. So that no man can with any probability suspect, that any reason besides reverence to his Majesty, makes us bow our bodies to his image. ANSWER. Your reason is no reason, but a mere verbal asseveration: for being reduced to form, it sounds in this manner. That which is so representative of Christ, as that the sight thereof, carrieth our thoughts presently by imagination to Christ, and yet hath nothing in it worthy of adoration, for itself, hath a right, and dignity, to be worshipped above other creatures which do so rudely, remotely, darkly, and imperfectly represent God, that none but spiritual men, and perfect contemplants, can acknowledge and worship God in them. But artificial images of Christ, etc. are representations of the first sort; and other creatures, are only representative, in the latter manner. Ergo, Painted and carved images of Christ, have a right and dignity to be worshipped above other creatures. Both Propositions of this Argument are denied. First, The Mayor is false: for imaginary representation only, without special Institution, and other grounds, in the thing representing, may be only a motive, and not a terminative object of Worship, as hath formerly been showed. Secondly, The Minor hath no pretext or colour of Truth: Agobard. d. picked. & Imag. Si templum Dei sumus & Spiritus Dei habitat in nobis, plus est quod fidelis quisque habet in suo animo, etc. Si ulla Imago esset adoranda, vel colenda, Creatoris potius esset quam Creatura, nempe 〈◊〉 fecit Deus ad Imaginem & similitudinem suam, homo autem facere non potest 〈◊〉 in quo sit similitudo 〈◊〉 in ratione. Nam si exprimit sculpendo 〈◊〉 pingendo similitudinem 〈◊〉 corporis aut membrorum, hoc ut que exprimit quod minimum 〈◊〉 in homine non quod maximum. Lactant. l. 2. c. 2. Simulachrum Dei non illud est quod digitis hominis & lapide figuratur, sed ipse homo, quoniam & sentit & 〈◊〉, & multas magnasque actiones habet, etc. for some Creatures do so represent Christ, as that they are his lively Image, by Communion and Participation of Grace, 2. Pet. 1.4. And they carry the minds of Believers, by their actions, to wit, by their Doctrine and Example, into the distinct, and saving knowledge of Christ; and they stand here in the world, in the room and stead of Christ, by his own Ordination, 2. Cor. 5.20. But Painted and Carved Images, represent only a Body and a thing external. And without other means, people cannot know Christ, nor understand such things concerning his Person and Office, as are necessary to make them wise to salvation. And whereas the jesuit saith, That other Creatures do so rudely, remotely, etc. represent God, that none but perfect contemplants, can acknowledge and worship him in them; the holy Scripture speaketh in a contrary manner, to wit, That the visible things of God, his power and Godhead, etc. were made manifest, and clearly to be seen, in the fabric of his Creatures a Basil. Hexam. Ho. 11. Aug. d. ver. Relig. c. 29. Ambros. Ep. 83. In 〈◊〉 coeli & terrae, quaedam sunt paginae, ad omnium oculos semper patentes, & suum Authorem nunquam tacentes, quarum protestatio, Magistrorum imitatur Doctrinam, & eloquia Scripturarum. Aug. sup. Psal. 142. Niceph. Eccl. Hist. l. 11. c. 43. Greg. Naz. Orat. 34. Greg. Mag. sup. job c. 35. suspice l. 26. c. 8. Aug. d. verb. Dom. ser. 55. & confess. l. 10. c. 6. , even of Heathen people, which were not spiritual men, or perfect Contemplants, Rom. 1.19, 20. The opinion of Gabriel Vasques, mentioned only, and touched aslope by our Adversary, was this which followeth: First, There is not any thing in the world, which we may not sincerely adore, and God himself in the same b Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. Disp. 6. c. 3. n. 180. Nulla est res mundi, etc. 〈◊〉 sincere adorare non possumus. . Secondly, One may, according to right and sincere faith, consider God internally present in every Creature, and worship God in it, and with it c Ib. li. 3. Disp. 1. c. 2. n. 8. & 9 Si imaginem pictam, quae ratione & anima caret, rite adoramus, eo quod exemplar representatum cogitatione cum ea coniungimus, nec solum imaginem, sed vestem etiam reipsa seperatam à Rege, consideratione tamen cum eo coniunctam colimus, sicut Iacob dum osculabatur vestem filij sui joseph, ipsum affectu honoris & amoris 〈◊〉 Quid quaeso obstare potest, quo minus quamcunque rem mundi cum Deo, qui in ea est secundum essentiam, & quam continuo virture sua conseruat, secluso periculo, adorare & colere possimus? eique corpus inclinantes, & osculum infigentes, in Deum ipsum illius authorem toto spiritu sicut in prototypon Imaginis feramur? Cur quaeso non poterit quisque recta & sincera fide, Deum in qualibet re intime presentem considerans, in ipsa, & cum ipsa adorare. Ib. n. 10. Quisque fidelis apud se considerans terram hanc, quam calcamus esse scabellum pedum Domini, ad terram se inclinate, & prosternere potest. Ib. n. 14. Concedit Leo potuisse aliquem inclinata ceruice ipsi soli, etc. Ib. c. 5. n. 33. . Thirdly, It is lawful to worship the Earth, as God's footstool; and the Sun as his Tabernacle, in the same manner as Images, and other sacred things are worshipped. Fourthly, He is no Idolater, which according to a good intention, worshippeth God in a stone, or in the rays of the Sun, although the devil were there d Ib. c. 5. n. 33. Sicut homoper lapidé aut in lapide, potest Deum hac syntera fide colere, sic etiam in radio luminis, quod apparet, poterit ex recta circa Deum intention & affectu, ipsum venerari, & quamuis ibi esset Daemon, ipsi nullo modo aut affectus seruitutis, aut exterior nota submissionis exhiberetur. , or which adoreth the Ass e Ib. Disp. 2. c. 6. n. 77. Posset asinus, etc. upon which Christ sat. And if one worship God in a Crucifix, wherein the devil lurketh, he need not excuse himself, by saying, he was ignorant of the devil's presence; nor limit his Worship, by using any express condition f Ib. n. 34. Non est necessaria Ignoratio, ut ab Idololatriae crimine ille excusetur, qui in radio illo luminis, vel specie crucifixi sub qua Daemon delitescit, Deum Adorat. Quare nec conditionem expresse addere oportet, ut recte & legitime Adoratio fiat. . Fiftly, Although the former practice be lawful, yet the same may not be appointed to be done promiscuously, by rude or vulgar people a Ibid. cap. 2. pa. 397. Tamen non dicimus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 posse publicè adorandam populo proponi, etc. . Our Adversary is silent, concerning his own judgement about the former Doctrine. But if I may speak freely, according to my private opinion, I cannot perceive why the Sun, and the Moon, and the Earth, and the Ass, &c b August. sup. Psal. 113. c. 2. Melior est etiam bestia, etc. Quanto magis vel melius mures atque serpents, & id genus 〈◊〉 colerent? Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pag. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 quovis animali viliores sunt. Nam si quaedam animalia non habent omnes sensus, ut vernes & 〈◊〉, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Statuae ociosae, inefficaces, inutiles, & insensiles, alligantur, & clavis configuntur, & compinguntur limantur, secantur, eraduntur, caelantur. . may not be worshipped together with God their maker, upon as good, and better reason, than Pictures and Statues, which are form by craftsmen, and have no force or operation in them. I am taught also by learned Vasques, that the devil in very substance, may lurk in Images; and my Adversary cannot prove, that Christ is present or assistant to them. Now it seemeth unreasonable to worship that which may receive the devil: when on the other side, one cannot be certain, that it may have any fellowship with Christ, 2. Cor. 6.16. Jesuit. Nor doth it follow, That if we worship the Image of Christ, and the Cross that he died on, that we should also adore judas his lips, which touched our Saviour's sacred mouth, when he gave him that traitorous kiss. For it is easy to show many differences betwixt Judas his lips, and the Crosse. First, judas his lips were conjoined substantially with judas, that none could bow or bend unto them and kiss them, without seeming to bow and do honour to his person: In regard he being an intellectual Creature, was an object capable of veneration, terminated and stayed in his own person. But the Cross being a senseless thing, is not an object sufficient to stay veneration within itself; neither is it a part belonging to the substance of any wicked man, that concurred to the punishing of our Saviour, but rather was fixed unto, and joined with his Body: and so the outward bowing to the Cross, is done mentally only unto Christ, whom we behold as stretched thereon. Secondly, the Cross, the Nails, the Lance, and other such instruments being senseless creatures, may be thought of as things sanctified by the touch of our Saviour's body, not having in them any thing contrary to the sanctity of Christ, and so could not hinder the conceit of such imputed sanctity. But judas being most wicked and detestable, and full of the most horrible treason that ever was, did so defile and profane his whole person, and all the parts thereof, that the mere touch of our Saviour's most sacred mouth could not sanctify, nor make holy unto Christian imagination his lips, without changing and sanctifying his heart; for so long as he continueth without repenting his treason, the lively remembrance of that execrable fact doth so possess a Christian heart, as no respectful thought to him can enter unto it. Finally, the Passion of Christ may be considered two ways: First, as proceeding from the will of wicked men, the Devil's instruments, to torment him, in which consideration it is not grateful unto God, but a detestable sin in the authors thereof: Secondly, it may be considered, as received in the body of Christ, as abiding and continuing in his sacred person, admitted in his heart, and offered to his Father for the sins of the world, and by this consideration it is sacred and venerable. The lips of judas betraying Christ, as the hands also of the wicked Minister, that struck him in Caiphas his house, and other like instruments conjoined with wicked persons, were instruments of Christ's passion, as it proceeded from their wicked hearts, and consequently as it was a detestable action; but the Cross, the Nails, and the Lance that stayed in, and were conjoined unto the body of Christ, were instruments of Christ's Passion, as lodged in his sacred person, and as offered to his heavenly Father, and consequently as of a thing most highly venerable. ANSWER. Admitting many differences between judas his lips, and the material Cross, it followeth not, that the one may be worshipped, although the other may not: for there are many differences between the brazen Serpent, and the Angel in the Revelation, yet neither of these creatures might be religiously adored, 2. King. 18, 4. Apoc. cap. 19, & cap. 22.9. There are differences between the Sun, and king Nabuchadonozer, yet neither might be worshipped religiously. Neither do the several differences assigned by the Adversary, conclude: Not the first, because there was something in judas his lips susceptible of respect, which was not in the material Cross, to wit, capacity of Grace; for judas might have repent, but an inanimate creature is not potentially susceptible of sanctity: Not the second, for by error an insensible creature may terminate adoration as well as an intellectual, witness the idolatry of Pagans. Thirdly, that the liveless and insensible Cross, whereupon Christ suffered, was sanctified by his Passion, must be believed when divine ordinance is produced, to make the same manifest. But for aught I can observe, the Protestants use not this objection, taken from judas his lips a junius. Animadu. ad. Bellarm. d. Imag. c. 30. n. 10. Haec a nobis nòn afferuntur, etc. : and some learned Papists affirm, that judas his lips might be reverently kissed b Vasq. d. Ador. lib. 3. disp. 2. cap. 6. n. 69. Nihil obstat quo minus aliquis fincera fide & recta intentione affectum & animum in solùm Christum intendens, labia judae & alia quae iniustè Christum tetigerunt, reverentèr osculetur, pag. 438. Lud. Paramo. d. Orig. inquis. lib. 2. tit. 3. ca 8. n. 55. Nihil obstat quo minus labia judae & alia, puta manum percutientem Saluatorem, quae iniustè Christum tetigerunt, aliquis sincera fide, & recta intention, affectum & animum in Christum intendens, reverentèr osculetur. . The last words, which are the Cross, the Nails, and the Lance that stayed in, and were joined unto the body of Christ, were instruments of Christ's Passion, as lodged in his sacred Person, & as offered to his heavenly Father, afford this Argument following for the jesuit: Those things which at the instant time of Christ's Passion had a residence in Christ's body, and were joined thereunto as instruments of his Passion, and were offered by Christ to his heavenly Father, are thereby made most highly venerable. But the Cross, Nailes, and Lance were those things which at the instant time of Christ's Passion, had a residence in Christ's body, and were joined thereunto as instruments of his Passion, and were offered by Christ to his heavenly Father, Ergo The Cross, Nailes, and Lance are thereby made most highly venerable. Both Propositions are false in whole, or in part. First, those things which at the instant time of Christ's Passion, had a residence in his body, and were joined thereunto (per contactum phisicum) as instruments of his Passion, were not thereby made most highly venerable, because there is no divine authority, or any other snfficient reason to prove this assertion. Secondly, these things were separate instruments, and not perpetually conjoined to his person, and if none did worship them when they were actually conjoined, there is no reason to think that they are to be worshipped being divided. If apparel when it is joined to an honourable person, may be coworshipped with the person, yet when it is divided from the person, and hangeth in a wardrobe, or is worn by a Page, it is otherwise a Peres. Aiala. d. Diu. Trad. p. 3. d. Imag. Si purpura ab eo seperetur, quamuis ab aliquo cognoscatur ut Regis purpura, non opus est ut eadé veneratione tunc veneretur, qua ipse Imperator. Aug. d. verb. Dom. serm. 58. Si quis nostrum aut 〈◊〉 aut diadema regale iacens inveniat, nunquid 〈◊〉 conabitur adorare? . Whiles God appeared to Moses in the bramble bush, the ground whereon Moses stood is called holy, Exod. 3.6. But this holiness being only relative, transitory, and denominative, and not inherent or durable, the former vision and apparition being finished, the ground whereon Moses stood returned to his old condition. The like may be said of the water of jordan, considered when Christ was baptised with it, and again considered, when his baptism was finished, and out of the use. An Ambassador during his embassage, is a public and honourable person; when his office ceaseth, the honour consectary and dependant upon his office ceaseth also. Secondly, the latter branch of the assumption, to wit, the Cross, Nailes, and Lance were offered by Christ to his heavenly Father at his Passion, is impiously false, for nothing was offered by Christ to his heavenly Father at his Passion, but himself, and part of himself, Heb. 7.27. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, he offered up himself, Heb. 9 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, through the eternal Spirit he offered himself without spot to God, etc. Heb. 10. 10. We are sanctified through the offering of the body of lesus Christ, once for all, 1. Pet. 2.24. Col. 1.22. Heb. 9.12. By his own blood he entered once into the holy place, etc. 1. Pet. 1. 19 And if the Cross, Nailes, and Lance were offered by Christ to his Father, than we were redeemed with corruptible things, contrary to the Apostles doctrine, 1. Pet. 1. 18, and Wood, Nailes, and Iron were a part of the propitiatory Sacrifice for the sins of the whole world; which is a jesuitical, or rather an Antijesuine doctrine, that is, a doctrine ascribing to dead creatures, Iron, Wood, Steele, Nailes, etc. that which is most proper to the precious blood of jesus. This doctrine (maintained by Loiolists) is most sacrilegious, and more to be abhorred than judas his lips. But it is fulfilled in these men, which Clement Alexandrinus saith of heathen Idolaters, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉? are they not prodigious monsters which adore stocks and stones? Jesuit. Out of which I may conclude, that Christ jesus being a true man, his Image hath a most evident and undeniable right to represent him, and so to be honoured for his sake. ANSWER. Conclusions borrow their strength from their premises but the former premises have no power to enforce this conclusion. For although Christ is a true man, yet his painted Image wanteth evident and undeniable right to represent him; because such right presupposeth divine institution. The same represents him and stands for him, only by humane imagination (which is all the Adversary is able to prove) but religious worship must have a more sound and certain foundation, otherwise we must say to Papals, when they are thus prodigal in giving Christ's honour to Idols, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, joh. 4. 22. ye worship ye know not what. If in civil worship, one should frame an Image, or chair of State, in honour of a king, and command people to kneel and bow to it, none will be so foolish as to obey, unless such commandment be derived from the king's authority, or law. But in things religious and heavenly, men have not the same liberty of devising, and commanding, as appeareth by Gedeons' Ephod, judg. 8.27 a Aug. q. 41. sup. li. jud. p. 415. Cum Idolum non fuerit, id est cuiusquè Dei falsi & alieni simulachrum, sed Ephod, id est unum de Sacramentis Tabernaculi, quod ad vestem Sacerdotalem pertineret, quomodo fornication 'em Scriptura dicat populi ista sectantis atquè venerantis? Ideò scilicet, quod praeter Tabernaculum Dei ubi erantista, quae sibi fieri iusserat Deus Israel, extra simile aliquid fieri fas non erat. . Lastly, if it should be granted that artificial Images did represent, figure, or teach Christ jesus by divine institution, as fully as the Books of holy Scripture, or as the inward conceits and images of the mind b Apud. Cabrer, 3. q. 25. ar. 3. n. 28. Si Imagines essent colendae eadem adoratione qua exemplaria, sequeretur etiàm internas Imagines, ut conceptus & phantasmata, esse codem cultu adorandas Internae enìm Imagines, multo perfectiùs repraesentant ipsum exemplar, quam Imagines externae. 〈◊〉 istae solum representant corporis lineamenra, conceptus verò, naturam specificam ipfius viventis. , yet it were inconsequent to infer that the same were therefore to be worshipped in such manner as Papals require. They were indeed to be used with reverence, but reverend using and adoration are diverse actions. Jesuit. Jesuit 2. THis Worship was ever since the Apostles in the Church without beginning. ANSWER. IF it had no beginning, how can this man prove, that the Apostles were the Authors? Jesuit. The disagreeing of Protestants, about the time when Worship of Jmages began, is a sufficient Argument, That there is no beginning thereof assigneable. ANSWER. The jesuits Proposition is: Worship of Images hath been practised in the true Church ever since the Apostles, etc. His first Argument to confirm this, is, If Protestants disagree, in assigning the time, when the worship of Images first began in the Church: Then the worship of Images was practised universally and perpetually from the Apostles days. But Protestants disagree in assigning the time when the Worship of Images first began in the Church. Ergo The worship of Images was practised universally and perpetually from the Apostles days: and consequently the same worship, is to be received and practised in these days. First, The consequence of the Mayor Proposition is denied: For is it not ridiculous to argue in this manner? Learned Papists disagree, in assigning the time when Heathenish Idolatry first began: Therefore Heathenish Idolatry had his beginning in Paradise. But learned Papists, Bellarmine, Pererius, Barradias', &c. disagree, in assigning and pointing forth the moment of time when Heathenish Idolatry fist began a Bellarm. d. verb. Dei. lib. 1. cap. 13. Barrad. Harmon. Euang. tom. 4. lib. 10. cap. 12. Perer. in Genes. lib. 15. cap. 10. Disp. 5. n. 80. . The time, when people first began to offer their sons and daughters to devils, is not assigneable. And who can certainly report, when barbarous people first began to eat man's flesh? or when the Assyrian matrons began first to prostitute themselves, at the temple of Venus b 〈◊〉. Clio. li. 1. pa. 81. una ijsdem Babilonijs lex est; omnibus modis faeda: nempè omnibus mulieribus indiginis commune est, semel in vita, ad veneris templum desidentibus, cum externis viris consuerudinem habere. Ad templum veneris sedent, etc. Hospitem autèm illum, etc. dicere oportet, 〈◊〉 tibi Deam milittam imploro. Milittam enim Assirij venerem apellant. ? Is it therefore consequent, that these customs had their beginning from Noah's days, because their original is not assigneable? Our adversaries Achilles therefore (Protestants are not able out of approved Historians to assign the persons and time, who, and when, began the worship of images in the Church: Ergo, the said custom is originally from the Apostles) rather deserveth contempt and derision, than an accurate solution. 2. The assumption of the former argument is also denied: For Protestants disagree not in assigning the time when worship of images was first of all imposed, as an article of faith: for the second Nicene Synod, celebrated after the year 790. did first decree this practice. And yet, if it be admitted, that there were some difference of opinion between Protestants in matter of Chronologie, and about point of time, this is no argument of palpable untruth (as our adversary declames,) for we find as great difference in the Fathers, and among Papists themselves, in sundry passages of this nature c Horant. loc. li 5. ca 3. Patres illi sancti, nonnulla in libris suis 〈◊〉, & crediderunt, 〈◊〉 humanum sensum innixi opinionibus hominum, presertim in describendis historijs, rebusque aliis gestis recensendis, etc. Ireneus per auditum tantum 〈◊〉, Christum post 〈◊〉 aetatis suae annum passum, etc. . But now let us further examine, in what manner the obiectour proveth, that Protestants disagree about the time when worship of images began. Jesuit. But because it were long to set downeall their disagreeing assertions, I will only declare what Mr. john White, brother to my Adversary, in his book printed and reprinted many times, saith thereabout, that your Majesty may by this example understand, with how little sincerity the best esteemed Protestant Ministers handle controversies, to the deception of many Christian souls. First there was no image, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his Way. pa. 151. 152. either graven or painted (saith Erasmus a Jn. 〈◊〉. ) no not the image of Christ himself to be set in Churches, and this appeareth by the testimony of the ancients b Epiph. Epist. ad johan. Concil. Elibert. c. 36. . Secondly, when they began to be used, the Church of Rome forbade the worship of them, as appear by the Epistles of Gregory c Epist. 10, 11. lib. 7. to Serenus; and Polydore d De Iwent. li. 6. a Papist confesseth, all Fathers condemned the worship of Images for fear of Idolatry. Afterward the Council of Nice brought in their worship, decreeing nevertheless, that no image should be adored with Latria, divine honour. At the last Thomas Aquinas e 3. Pa. q. 25. ar. 3. 4. , and the Trent Council f Sess. 25. expounded by the jesuits g Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. c. 4. Suar. in 3. p. to. 1. disp. 54. sect. 4. , taught that divine honour should be given unto them. Thus he, which in my judgement is sufficient to make any judicious man mislike Protestant Writers, that defend their Religion by such palpable untruths. For (to begin with his last saying, and so upward) what can be more false, than that the Council of Trent taught, that divine worship is to be given unto images, there being no such words in the whole Council? As for the jesuit Vasq. whom he citeth as so expounding Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. Disp. 9 c. 3. Nullus 〈◊〉 neque patrum sie loquitur Imagini Christi aut Trinitatis 〈◊〉 in 3. pa. to. 1. disp. 54. sect. 3. ad 〈◊〉 Ille a. ctus 〈◊〉 prototypi est 〈◊〉 latria, &c tespectu vero Imaginisnon est tam perfecta adoratio sed inferior veneratio. the Council, no such doctrine is found in him, either in the place quoted by the Minister, or in any other part of his works, yea the contrary is found. It is not (quoth he) to be said, that divine honour is given unto images. Neither doth Suarez the other Jesuit cited, expound the Council to give divine worship unto Christ's image; but only saith that out of the Council it may be gathered, that the image of Christ, and Christ, are honoured by one and the same act of worship: which as referred unto Christ 〈◊〉 divine worship; as referred to the image, not divine worship but inferior veneration. For as he declareth the worship of Christ and his image, though one, and the same Physical act, is twofold, being divine honour towards Christ, not divine but an inferior kind of honour towards the image. ANSWER. This discourse reduced into form of Argument is: Mr. john White had dealt unfaithfully in his narration, of the opinions of learned Papists, touching the coming in, and worship of Images. Ergo, Protestants disagree about the time, when the worship of Images began. A miserable and most inept consequence, as all men learned and unlearned may perceive: for if it were true, that 〈◊〉. john White, or some other Protestant Minister, had erred in reporting the doctrine of the Trident Synod, and in relating the opinion of Suares and Vasques; doth it follow from hence, that Protestants disagree, in assigning the time when Image-worship began to be enjoined, as a necessary duty, and the doctrine thereof determined as an article of faith? But omitting the sequel of the argument, which is loose and disjointed, let us examine the antecedent. Thomas Aquinas, and the Trident Council (saith Mr. john White) as it was expounded by jesuits (meaning also other learned Pontificians) taught that divine worship, or Latria, should be given unto them, etc. I answer: Aquin. his words are so plain, that an intelligent man cannot conceive his meaning to be other than as the letter of the wordssoundeth c Aquin. 3. q. 25. ar. 3. in c. Cassand. consult. d. Imag. pa. 989. Opinio D. Tho. etc. Asserentis 〈◊〉 Christi adorandam latria. Picus Mirand. Apol. q. 3. Grux Christi & imagines sunt adorandae latria 〈◊〉 modo quo ponit Thomas, etc. Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae, consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda, Because Christ himself is adored with divine honour, it is consequent, that his image is to be adored with the worship of Latria. 2. The determination of the Trident Council, in this and in many other articles, is like Apollo his riddles and responsalls, a nose of wax, and so ambiguous, that not only Mr. White, but veterane Papists themselves are perplexed in resolving the mysteries thereof. Now thething which induced Mr. White to conceive that the said Council approved the opinion of Thomas and other schoolmen, touching adoration of Images with divine worship, was, not only the silence of these Trent masters, in condemning that gross error: but especially, the practice of many late Pontificians, which propugne Aquinas his Tenet, affirming, that the same is agreeable to the Counsels definition. Henriquez a jesuit saith: b Henriquez. sum. Theol. mor. li. 8. c. 32. Male quidam negant praedicandum populo, quod imago Christi, sit adoranda, latria. Falso, Catherinus, & quidam alias aiunt, si D. Thomas vidisset synodum septimam, non esset concessurus 〈◊〉 Christi adorati latria, sed hyperdulia. Some (of our part) do evil, in denying, that it is not meet to preach to common people, That the image of Christ is to be adored with divine honour. Suarez c Suar. in 3. to. 1. disp. 54. Sect. 4. Dicendum ergo, primo est, fieri recte posse, ut Prototypon in imagine, & imago cum prototypo uno actu adoretur, 〈◊〉 hoc modo posse imaginem Christi 〈◊〉 latria. Ib. Posse tamen coadorari, sicut humanitas Christi coadoratur verbo, purpura Regis adoratur honore Regio. hath these words, It may rightly be, that the image, and the Prototype, may be adored with one act, and in this manner the image of Christ may be adored with Latria. Vasques d Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 8. c. 14. n. 385. Quod si cum Caietano aliquis usurpet Imaginem, ut ille loquitur formaliter, ut exercet actum Imaginis, hoc est pro exemplari ipso in imagine, vel pro imagine prout continet exemplar, & 〈◊〉 ipso quasi animata est: dicendum est sine dubio 〈◊〉 veram latriam in spiritu pro dignitate prototypi exhiberi. Idem in 3. p. Tho. q 25. ar. 3. disp. 109. ca 1. Veteres Scholastici absolute dicunt, Jmagines Christi & Trinitatis esse colendas adoratione 〈◊〉. saith, if an image be taken formally, as it exerciseth the act of an image, that is; for the very sampler in the image, and for the image as it containeth the sampler, and is as it were animated by it; then without doubt we must say, that true Latria, in spirit, is exhibited unto it. jacobus de Graphijs a jac. de Graph. Decis. Aur. p. 1. li. 2. c. 2. n. 15. 〈◊〉 imaginem, codem cultu quo illi cuius imago est veneremur, id est ut imagini Dei vel Christi vel & Crucis signo, proutdominicam passionem ad mentem revocat, latriam impartiamur. Thyraeus. Append. ad li. d. Spir. Appar. c. 2. n. 10. B. Augustinus humanam Christi naturam quae filio unita est cultu latriae adorari posse, docet exemplo purpurae Regiae, quam simul cum Rege tuto adoramus: & non 〈◊〉 idem 〈◊〉 deo ipsiusque Imagini exhiberi; quando ipsa Deum representat, animusque inter deum & ipsam non distinguit? Sed deum & cum Imagine, & in imagine, & per Imaginem videt? hath these words, We are to worship every image with the same worship wherewith the Sampler is worshipped, to wit, the image of God, or Christ, or sign of the Cross (as it bringeth the Lord's Passion into our mind) with the worship of Latria. The same is affirmed by Ludovicus Paramo b Par. d. Orig. Inquis. li. 2. tit. 3. c. 8. n. 9 Compertum est, ca signum hoc Crucis, dignitate atque praestantia pollere, ut non alia quam adoratione soli Deo exhibenda colatur, & adoretur: quae 〈◊〉 latriae dicitur 〈◊〉. , Bernardus Puiol c 〈◊〉. d. Ador. disp. 3. Sect. 6. Imagines rerum sacrarum sunt adorandae adoratione sacra & religiosa, sicut adoratur prototypus. Jb. sect. 7. Assert. 7. Dum adoratur Imago Christi, illa imago est adoranda adoratione latriae. Ib. Latria est duplex absoluta & respectiva, & haec licet minus perfect, est proprie latria non minus quam illa. . Franciscus Petigianis d Petig. Sum. 3. Sent. dist. 9 q 1. ar. 3. Haec est communis sententia, quae asserit, quod imago Christi, eadem adoratione est adoranda, qua ipsemet Christus: & idem dicendum est de aliis imaginibus, quatenus repraesentant prototypum, quod 〈◊〉 eadem adoratione venerandae sunt, qua & representata per ipsas. , Petrus de Cabrera e Cabrer. in 3. p. Thom. q: 25. ar. 3. disp. 3. §. 2. Secunda sententia 〈◊〉, eandem prorsus adorationem exhibendam esse imaginibus, & rebus ipsis per imagines representatis, ita ut imago Christi sit adoranda latria, qua ipse Christus colitur. Azor. Inssit. moral. to. 1. li. 9 c. 6. Archang. Rubeo in 3. Sent. dist. 9 L. Lamas, Sum, eccles. p. 3. c. 3. pa. 265. 〈◊〉. Elys. clip. pa. 242. , Azorius, L. Lamas, Thom. Elysius'. Arch. Rubeo. Tho. Bustus, etc. And whereas the foresaid Authors in their larger disputations use many distinctions f Per se & per accidens. Absoluta, Respectiva, propria impropria, propriè Analogicè. Veliosil. Advert. in 2. Tom. Aug. q. 9 Aduertendum, quod nobis imagines non tantum seruiunt quasi 〈◊〉, in memoriam divos ipsos reducentes, nam scripturas & sanctorum nomina non adoramus, sed Deum & sanctos qui per illam representantur De imaginibus vero longe aliter sentiendum est, non enim nos tantum elevant, ut sanctos adoremus: in hunc enim usum nullus Haereticorum imagines 〈◊〉, sed easdem ipsas debemus adorare. Non enim tantum ait 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 Christum adoramus, sed tuam crucem, & eidem Cruci ait O Crux ave spes unica, non autem adorantur in quantum lapides sunt, aut ligna, aut quaevis alia materia, 〈◊〉 in quantum Dei Sanctorumue formae in illis existunt, quo fit ut unaquaeque imago, eodem sit cultu adoranda, quo 〈◊〉 ipsa, ut imago Dei & Christi adoratione latriae, etc. Turrecrem. Sup. Decret. d. Consecr. dist 3. ca Venerabiles. , wherein they may seem to qualify the hardness of former assertions, yet if they intent not to give such honour to images, as their general speeches import, they are rather to be accused, and taken at the worst, which give occasion, than Protestants blamed as mistaking their meaning: their distinctions being (as g Bellarm. d. Imag. c. 22. Qui defendunt Imagines adorari latria, coguntur uti 〈◊〉 distinctionibus, quas vix ipsimet intelligunt, nedum populus imperitus. Bellarmine speaketh) so subtle and intricate, that not only vulgar persons, but the Authors themselves scarce understand them. But the question, whether images be to be adored with divine worship, or not, and all the rest of this section, concerning Mr. john White, is heterrogeneous to this disputation, as appears by the former Analysis. It is sufficient for us to show, that Papists adore and worship Images, with some kind of real worship a 〈◊〉. d. Adorat. disp. 3. sect. 7. Quarto colligitur contra Durand. ipsas Imagines proprie adorari, quia verba Concilij absolute prolata, proprie sunt intelligenda. Cabrer. in 3. p. Tho. q. 25. ar. 3. §. 1. n. 14. Oppositam sententiam tenet D. Thom. hic, & omnes eius discipuli, nempe Imagines vere ac proprie adorari, saltem ut obiectum materiale Adorationis, vel totale velsaltem 〈◊〉. , to wit, such as the Trident Council expressly defineth b 〈◊〉. Trid. Sess. 25. Eisque debitum 〈◊〉 & venerationem esse impartiendam. : for if such adoration of Images be an Article of Faith, and not only a thing Adiaphorous, but a necessary duty c 〈◊〉. d. Ador. d. 3. sect. 7. Adoratio Imaginis non est Actus indifferens, sed intrinsece bonus. , than the same must have apparent ground in Divine Revelation d Orig. c. Celsum. lib. 7. Nemo qui cernit animae oculis, alio modo Deum colit, quam sicut ipse docuit. ; but if it be never commanded or prescribed in the Old or New Testament, nor was for sundry ages affirmed by Orthodoxal Fathers, to be an Apostolical Tradition, and yet the Trent Council presumeth to make it divine, obliging all Christians, upon pain of damnation, to the belief and practise thereof; Protestants have just cause to condemn this doctrine, and to refuse conformity with Papists, in the practice thereof. Papists condemn those of heresy, which refuse to worship Images, where they have power, they burn them to Ashes e Sixt. 〈◊〉. Bibl. li. 5. Annot. 247. Balthasar Hinc marus viennae exustus. 〈◊〉. fum. l. 8. c. 32. AEgidius vir doctus, qui combustus eft, etc. Compulsus est retractare hanc propositionem: Imaginem Christi & eius crucem non adorari Latria. : They hold it lawful to dethrone Kings and Princes from their royal dignity, for opposing this practice f 〈◊〉. d. Ador. disp. 3. sect. 6. pag. 274. Vnde potius Regno Franciae venisset Charolus privandus si Ironomachus fuisset, ut predicti Imperatores imperio 〈◊〉 privati, quam occidentis eligendus Imperator. Platin. in vit. Gregor. 3. Hic statim 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inijt Cleri Romani consensu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Imperatorem Conftantinopolitanum imperio 〈◊〉 & communione fidelium private, quod sanctas Imagines 〈◊〉 sacris aedibus abrafisset & statuas demolitus esset. 〈◊〉. Castr. c. 〈◊〉. li. 8. ver. Imago. Tapia in 3. p. Tho. q. 27. ar. 6. pag. 330. . It must therefore be necessary for them to demonstrate their Tenet by manifest Testimonies or Arguments, taken from divine Revelation, and not to trifle off the time, in bequarrelling john White, concerning the meaning of the Trident Council. For it is apparent, that the Council intendeth to make that an Article of 〈◊〉, which hath no foundation in the rule of Faith, and it yieldeth liberty to the most gross opinions, which former Papists held concerning adoration of Images g Azor. Instit. Mor. to. 1. li. 9 c. 6. Secunda opinio affirmat (Imagines) coli 〈◊〉 adoratione Latriae, etc. 〈◊〉 communi est. Theologorum consensu recepta. Sic Thomas, Alexander, Bonaventura, Richardus, 〈◊〉, Paludanus, Almain, Marsilius, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉. . And it is sufficient for Protestants to manifest thus much. Jesuit. Nor is Master Whites Argument good, We worship john White, in his Way. pag. 400. Christ and his Image by the same Act: but the worship of Christ, is divine honour, Ergo, The worship of the Image is divine honour: for this proveth 〈◊〉, That the worship of the Image is divine, as referred to Christ, not as referred unto the Image. Otherwise if Master White should help to pull his fellow Ministers horse out of the mire, 〈◊〉 thereunto out of Christian charity and friendship, one might by the like Argument prove, that he beareth Christian charity towards horses; for he relieveth the horse, and pleasureth his friend, by one and the same Act. The pleasuring of his friend, is an Act of Christian charity towards him. Ergo, The pulling the horse out of the mire, is an Act of Christian charity towards the horse. A foolish Argument, because that one Act is virtually twofold, as referred to the man, owner of the horse, Christian charity; as referred to the horse only, no charity at all, but a base kind of love, and that for his friend's sake. The like is, when we kiss with our corporal lips the feet of the Image of Christ: at the same time by devout and reverend imagination, kissing his true feet, represented by the Image, we honour Christ and his Image by one and the same Physical Act, and that Act is divine Worship, though not divine as referred to the Image, but only as referred unto Christ. A thing so easily understood by learned men, as I marvel Ministers understand it not, or will wrangle in a matter so clear, if they sincerely seek truth. ANSWER. The Argument which you father upon Master john White, and whereunto you apply your flearing and miry similitude, is not extant in his Way to the Church, pag. 400. So far therefore as I can observe, you fight with your own shadow. But if the Argument had been propounded in this manner: Many learned Papists (to wit, Aquinas, and the Mayor part of the School a 〈◊〉. to. 1. Instit. Moral. l. 9 c. 6. Secunda opinio, etc. ) adore the Artificial Images of Christ, as they are conjoined with the Sampler, with the Act of Latria; Therefore they adore some Images with Divine worship: I cannot perceive, that your nice distinctions of Physical and virtual acts, divine, as referred to Christ, not divine, as referred to the Image, would have been sufficient to vindicate your Tenet, from the mud of superstition: for that which is worshipped with any act (matorially, or formally) of Latria, is worshipped with divine honour a Vasq. in 3. Tho. q. 25. ar. 3. Disp. 108. n. 97. Licet haec adoratio imaginis secundum se, sit 〈◊〉 secundarius Latriae, ob id tamen negari non debet, simpliciter & proprie esse Latriam. Suares 3. Tho. to. 1. Disp. 54. sect. 4. Quamuis creatura, non possit per se 〈◊〉 adorari Latria, posset tamen coadorari, sicut humanitas Christi coadoratur verbo, purpura Regis adoratur honore Regio: Dices hoc habere locum in iis, quae aliquo modo unum constituant cum persona adorata, Imago autem non facit unum cum exemplari. Sed hoc nihil obstat, quia Imago & exemplar sunt unum habitudine, etc. , at least, in part, or by accident. But no degree of divine honour can justly be yielded to any creature, which is not substantially united to the Deity, or at least wise, which is not by some divine Ordinance, accidentally united, and made capable of such adoration. But no artificial Images are thus united, and no divine ordinance exalteth them to such a dignity. Jesuit. And though the Ignorant understand not the b Adoratio relativa & absoluta, per Accidens, Analogicè impropriè. terms of Theology, by which Divines declare the manner of honouring the Prototype and the Image both by one Act, yet may they honour an Image as securely, and with as little danger and erring, as any that understand them. For as the Clown, who knows no more of the nature of motion, than that he is to set one foot before another, doth move in the very same manner as Philosophers, who 〈◊〉 that Action by terms most obscure, of intrinsical and extrinsecall, beginning and ending, and per ultimum non esse, & primum non 〈◊〉: So likewise a Catholic, that understands no more of honouring Christ his Image, than that he is by beholding the Image to remember Christ, and with pious and affectuous imaginations to adore him, doth honour our Saviour and his Image, by one and the same Act, as truly, verily, and religiously, as the greatest Divine that can learnedly explicate the manner how that Adoration is performed, as being done outwardly, relatively, and transitorily unto the Image, inwardly, affectuously, absolutely, finally unto Christ. ANSWER. Although this Assertion is false, and the Proof thereof borrowed from a simile, is impertinent: (for vulgar persons among you, commit gross Idolatry in Image Worship, as they which have lived beyond Seas, and some of your own part report; neither is there the same reason of natural motion, and the exercise of religious actions:) yet because it serveth not to prove the Assumption of your main syllogism, to wit, Protestants cannot assign any time when Image worship began, etc. I will not insist upon the examination of it. The latter branch of this Clause, to wit, Adoration is performed to Images, as being done outwardly, relatively, and transitorily unto the Image; inwardly, affectuously, absolutely, and finally, unto Christ, is boldly affirmed, but not confirmed by any Argument. First, how prove you, by divine revelation and testimony, that adoration is to be performed, according to your distinction of outwardly, relatively, and transitorily to Images? And against such loose and voluntary presumptions, we say with S. Chrisostome, Divinae Scripturae testimonia sequamur, neque feramus Chrysoft. sup. Gen. hom. 5. eos qui timerè quiduis blaterant, we are to follow 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, testimony of divine Scripture; and not to regard them, which at rovers, and without ground blatter out what they please. Secondly, if you adore Images outwardly, relatively, and transitorily, than you make Images a partial object of adoration: but God himself, who saith, I will not give my glory to another, (to wit, in whole or in part) neither my praise to graven Images, (Esa. 42.8.) hath excluded Images from copartnership with himself in adoration. Jesuit. Secondly, whereas he saith that the Council of Nice, brought in the worship of Jmages, yet forbade that any Image should be adored with divine honour; he both contradicts himself, and uttereth another manifest falsehood. He contradicts himself, in saying that the Nicene Council forbade divine worship of any Images: Seeing in another place he thus writeth, Both the Council of Nice, and the Divines of the Church of Rome, hold the Jmages of God, Defence, pag. 453. and our Saviour, and the Cross, must be adored with divine adoration. It is apparently false, that the said Nicene Council brought in the worship of Jmages, which might be proved by many testimonies, but this only may suffice, that Zonara's in Leone Isaurico. Leo Isauricus before the Council of Nice opposed Image worship, not as then beginning, but for many years before established in the Church; boasting that he was the first Christian Emperor, the rest having been Idolaters, because they worshipped Images: so manifestly did he oppose Antiquity, and so little truth there is in M. Whites Assertion. ANSWER. The second Nicene Synod brought in the worship of Images, not simply, but by defining the same to be necessary, and by appointing the practice thereof to be received universally: otherwise M. john White was not ignorant, that the Israelites worshipped molten Images in Dan and bethel, and the Simonians worshipped Images, Eusebius Eccles. Hist. lib. 2. ca 13. and the Gnostickes worshipped Christ his Image, Iren. lib. 2. cap. 24. And Marcellina worshipped the Images of jefu and Paul, etc. Aug. d. Haer. 7. Haeres. The Marsilians also, or people thereabout, worshipped Images, in the days of Serenus, Greg. li. 7. Epist. 109. & lib. 9 Epist. 9 But all these were condemned of superstition by the Catholic Church: and the second Nicene Synod was censured, and the definition thereof resisted by many, as I have formerly proved, pag. 210. And because the jesuit rehearseth a story out of Zonara's (an Author which themselves regard not a Possevin. Apparat. & Biblioth. Select. lib. 16. ca 19 Is certè in historia, etc. inepte atque oscitantèr pleraquè scripsit, etc. ) I will requite him with a more certain History out of Roger Hoveden b Roger Hoveden, pars 1. Annal. fol. 272. col. 2. Anno 792. Carolus Rex Francorun 〈◊〉 Synodalem librum ad 〈◊〉 sibi à Constantinopoli directum, in quo libro (heu proh dolour) 〈◊〉 inconuenientia, & verae 〈◊〉 contraria reperiebantur, maximè, quod penè omnium orientalium Doctorum, non minus quam trecentorum, vel eò amplius Episcoporum, unanima assertione comfirmatum fuerit Imagines adorari 〈◊〉, quod 〈◊〉 Ecclesia Dei execratur. Contra quod scripsit Albinus Epistolam ex authoritate divinarum 〈◊〉 mirabilitèr affirmatam, illamquè cum eodem libro, ex persona Episcoporum ac Principum nostrorum Regi 〈◊〉 attulit. , a native Historian of the affairs of Britain, his words are these. Charles the French king sent a Synodal into Britain, directed unto him from Constantinople, in the which book many things (out alas) inconvenient, and repugnant to right Faith, were found: especially it was confirmed almost by the unanimous consent of all the Eastern Doctors, no less than three hundred or more, That Images ought to be worshipped; which thing the Church of God doth altogether detest. Against which Synodal Book, Albinus wrote an Epistle, marvelously confirmed by authority of divine Scripture, and carried the same to the French king, together with the foresaid Book, in the name of our Bishops and Princes. Jesuit. Thirdly, to pass yet up higher, That Images began in Gregory the Great his time, and that he forbade the worship of them, contains other three falsehoods. First, Gregory is abused, who only commanded that none should worship Images as Gods, 〈◊〉 as Gentiles did, * Li. 7. Ep. 53. Non ut eam tanquam Deum colas. Et lib. 7. Ep. 5. Act. Rom. Pontif. Printed at Basile, 1558. pa. 45. Symonds on the Revelations pa. 57 Bale in Pageant of Popes, pa. 24. & 25. that some Godhead was affixed unto them, as he elsewhere declareth himself. And so manifestly did he teach Image worship, establishing Pilgrimages unto them by Indulgences, as Friar Bale accuseth him thereof. Yea M. Symonds and M. Bale write, that Leo an hundred and forty years before Gregory decreed the worship of Images. ANSWER. Gregory's words are Imagines adorare omnibus modis devita, By Lib. 9 Epist. 9 all means shun the worshipping of Images. Aliud est Picturam adorare, aliud per Picturae historiam, quid sit adorandum addiscere, It is one thing to worship a Picture, another by the story of the Picture, to learn what is to be worshipped. Non ad adorandum in Ecclesijs, sed ad instruendas solummodo mentes fuit nescientium collocatum, It was placed in the Church only to instruct the minds of the ignorant, and not to be worshipped. And in another Epistle, Quatenus literarum nescij, haberent undè Lib. 7. Epist. 109. scientiae historiam colligerent. First, in these passages of S. Gregory, we find no use of Images allowed, but only historical. Secondly, he saith positively, They are not set up to be worship bed, but only to instruct the ignorant. And although in the Lib. 7. Epist. 53. place objected, he saith, Non ut quasi Deum colas, Not that thou shouldest worship them as God; yet he doth not approve the worshipping of them any other way, but addeth, We do not bow down before them, as before the Deity; he saith not quasi ad Dietatem, as to the Deity, sed quasi ante, as before the Deity. Thirdly, Cassander a Cassand. Consult. d. Imag. De his Picturis quae fuerit mens, & sententia Rom. Ecclesiae adhuc aetate Gregorij satis ex eius Scriptis manifestum est, videlicet, ideò haberi Picturas, non quidem ut colantur & adorentur, sed ut imperiti Picturis inspiciendis, haud alitèr ac literis legendis, rerum gestarum admonerentur, & ad pietatem incitarentur. a learned Papist, confesseth ingenuously, That Gregory the Great forbade all worship of Images. But our latter Idolists use no measure or modesty in eluding and perverting the evident sentences of the Fathers. Jesuit. Secondly, Polydore in this point is egregiously falsified; for he sayeth not as the Minister makes him speak, All Fathers condemned the worship of Jmages for fear of idolatry: but his words are, cultum Imaginum teste Hieronimo, omnes veteres Patres damnabant metu Idololatriae, All the old Fathers (as Hierom witnesseth) did condemn worship of Images for fear of idolatry, by the old Fathers, meaning the Fathers of the Old Testament, not of the New: which appears, because in proof of his saying, he brings not the testimony of any Father of the New Testament, but only of the Old, as of Moses, David, jeremy, and other Prophets: and the scope of the whole Chapter is to declare, that the reason why, in the Old Testament, the Fathers misliked the worship of the Images of God, was, because they could not paint him aright, Cum Deum nemo vidisset unquam, because than no man had seen God. Afterwards God, saith Polidore, having taken flesh, and being become visible to mortal eyes, men Illius faciem divinae lucis fulgore, nitentem haud dubiè contemplabantur, & 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 effigiem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infixam, aut pingere aut sculpere tunc primum 〈◊〉 Polydor. d. Invent. li. 7. ca 13. flocked unto him, and did without doubt behold and reverence his face, shining with the brightness of divine light, and even then they began to paint, or carve his Image already imprinted in their minds: and those Images (saith he) they received with great worship and veneration, as was reason, the honour of the Image redounding to the original, as Basill writes. Which custom of adoring Images, the Fathers were so far from reprooving, as they did not only admit thereof, but also decreed and commanded the same by general Counsels, in the time of justinian the second, and Constantine his son. What man then is there so dissolute and audacious, as can dream of the contrary, and doubt of the lawfulness of this worship, established so long ago by the decree of most holy Fathers? Thus writeth Polidore, and much more to the same purpose, in the very place where the Minister citeth him to the contrary; which shows, how notoriously his credulous Readers are abused in matters of most moment: Basil. orat. in S. Barlaam. Paulin. ep. ad 〈◊〉. Lactan. in carmine de Cruse. Tertul. de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. whence appeareth the third falsehood, that in Gregory's days Images began to be set up in Churches; which to have been in Churches long before, the testimonies of S. Basil, Paulinus, Lactantius, and Tertullian, do sufficiently 〈◊〉. ANSWER. Polydores words are: Touching the beginning of Images, we Polyder. d. Invent. l. 6. c. 13. De simulachrorum origine, supra in secundo est à nobis libro proditum: Hic de illorum cultu iam 〈◊〉, quem non modo nostrae religionis expertes, sed teste Hieronymo, omnes ferè veteres Sancti Patres, damnabant ob metum Idololatriae. have treated before; now here we will speak of their worship, which not only men of contrary Religion, but (as Saint Hierom witnesseth) almost all the ancient holy Fathers condemned, for fear of Idolatry, etc. d Crinitus. d. Hon. Discipline. li. 9 c. 9 Girald. d. Dijs Gent. Syntagm. 1. Illud non praetermittam nos dico Christianos, ut aliquando Romanos, fuisse sinè imaginibus in primitiva quae vocatur Ecclesia. Origen. li. 8. c. Celsum. pa. 521. Simulachra Deo 〈◊〉 sunt, non fabrorum opera, sed à verbo Dei dedolata formataque in nobis, videlicet virtutes ad imitationem 〈◊〉 totius creaturae, in quo sunt iustitiae, 〈◊〉 fortitudinis, sapientiae, pietatis, caeterarumque 〈◊〉 exempla. Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. The Obiectour saith, That this place is falsified, and his reason is, Polydore speaketh of the Fathers of the Old Testament, to wit, of Moses, Daniel, jeremy, and the Prophets, and he saith, That they condemned worship of Images, because Christ was not as then incarnate, etc. But this is not all that Polydore speaketh, for among those Fathers, he placeth Gregory a Polyd. ib. D. quoque Gregorius 〈◊〉 Episcopum 〈◊〉, etc. reprehendit, quod Imagines fregisset; & laudat quod coli inhibuisset. the Great, writing to Serenus. And although Christ was not made man in the days of the Prophets, yet he had appeared in the similitude of man b Dan. 3. 25. Et quarti species similis filio Dei. Orig. sup. joh. Hom. 6. & in 6. cap. Esa. hom. 1. Tertul. Adu. jud. Text. 114. 〈◊〉 Epist. 13. ad Pulcher. Aug. c. Adimant. c. 9 Euseb. Hist. li. 1. c. 2. Niceph. Hist. li. 1. c. 2.3. , and Abraham, Moses, Elias, and the Prophets being men, their Pictures might have been worshipped, if Adoration of Images had been lawful. And besides Polydore, Cassander c Cassand. Consult. d. Imag. Quantum veteres initio Ecclesiae ab omni Imaginum Adoratione abhorruerunt declarat unus Origenes, etc. pag. 975. , and many other Pontificians affirm that the ancient Fathers in the Primative Church abhorred, or at least abstained from the having and worshipping of Images, which is also confirmed by their Testimonies. Jesuit. Neither can our Adversary bring any clear Testimony of Antiquity against this custom. For the Decree of the council of Eliberis, that no Picture should be made in the Church, lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted in walls, (which the Minister much urgeth) 〈◊〉 White, in his Way. pag. 345. clearly signifieth the contrary. For may not Images painted on Tables, be in Churches, and yet neither made in the Church, nor painted on walls? which kind of Images this Council doth not forbid. And why doth the Council forbid Images to be made in the Church as pertinent to the fabric thereof, or to be painted on walls, but out of reverence unto Images? for they being holy things, and so to be honoured for their Prototypes sake, the Council thought it unworthy of their dignity, they should be made on walls, where they may easily be defaced, and deformed, and by persecutors (for that Council was held in time of persecution) abused. ANSWER. No testimonies can be so clear, which Sophisters will not labour to pervert, and elude. Otherwise what is clearer against Image worship, than the words of the Council of Elliberis and Epiphanius? It is lost labour to contest with men, Qui sola pertinacia, pugnaces neruos, contra perspicuam veritatem intendunt (as Saint Augustine speaketh) which upon sole pertinacy, bend their uttermost force to gainsay perspicuous verity. First, the Council of Elliberis is so clear against Image worship, that many Pontificians of great note, acknowledge the same, and thereupon condemn, or elevate the authority of that Council. a Canus. loc. li. 5. c. 4. 〈◊〉 1. Tom. Concil. Annot. in 36. Can. Concil. Elibert. Sixtus Senens. Bibl li. 5. An. 247. Baron. An. 57 n. 120 Andrad. Orthod. Explic. li. 9 Mendoza. Defence. Conc. Elib. li. 3. c. 5. & alij. Tapia. in 〈◊〉. Tho. q. 27. ar. 〈◊〉. pa. 341. Ad haec vero dico quod Concilium illud Elibertinum fuit provinciale, & fortasé vidit populum suum decidentem in Idololatriam occasione sumpta ex Imaginibus, & 〈◊〉 illas statuit delendas. Bannes. sup. Tho. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pa. 68 Bosius. li. 15. c. 16. pa. 270. Agobard. li. d. picked. & imag. recte nimirum ob huiusmodi evacuandam superstitionem ab orthodoxis patribus definitum est, picturas in Ecclesia fieri non debere, etc. Secondly; If that Council forbade the being of Images in Churches, than it did much more hold the worship of them to be unlawful, but the beginning of the Canon apparently shows that: Placuit in Ecclesijs picturas esse non debere, It 〈◊〉 us (of the Council) that Pictures may not be in Churches. Jesuit. He doth also much insist upon Epiphanius, but relates john White in his Way. pag. 245. (according to his fashion) both his fact and words unsincerely. Epiphanius (saith he) finding an Image painted on a cloth, hanging in a Church, rend it downe, and said, it was against the authority of the Scriptures, that any image should be in the Church. Thus he unsincerely, as I said, not expressing what kind of Image that was, that Epiphanius in pieces: for Epiphanius saith: Cum iwenissem Imaginem hominis pendentem in Ecclesia tanquam Christi aut alicuius Sancti, nescio enim cuius erat: When I bade found an Image of a man hanging in the Church, as of Christ, or of some Saint, for I know not of whom the image was. Epiphanius doth by this relation more than insinuate that this was the Image of some profane man, hanging in the Church, as if it had been a sacred image of Christ, or some Saint: which is gathered by this reason, When I saw (saith he) against the authority of Scriptures, the image of a man hanging in the Church; not absolutely any image, as Mr. White citeth him, (for even by God's express command, Images were placed in the Temple) but the image of a man. Why doth Epiphanius so Exod. 25. & 3. 3. Reg. 6. much urge the impiety of the fact, in regard that it was the image of a man? but that he understood by the word Man, a mere ordinary profane man, not a blessed Saint. For certainly it might seem more against the authority of Scriptures, to make and set up in Churches the image of God, than the image of holy men; and the image of Christ according to his Godhead, than as he is man: so that there was no cause, why Epiph. should put so much Emphasis in the word Man, had he not understood a profane man. For some Christians in those days being newly converted from Paganism, and so retaining some relics thereof, did out of affection unto their deceased friends and parents, use to paint their images, and offer unto them oblations of Frankincense, and other the like heathenish honours, specially on their Anniversary days upon their Sepulchre. These men S. Augustine reprehends, and not the worshippers of Saints August. de 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae. c. 36. Images, under the title of Sepulchrorum & picturarum Adoratores, who to the Ghosts of their parents defunct, did (though Christians) offer that heathenish worship which the Poet exhorteth unto: Non pigeat tumulis animas excire paternis. Paucaque in extructos mittere thura rogos. Parua petunt manes—. ANSWER. This place of Epiphanius is a thorn in the Papists sides, and they are so distracted about the clearing of it, that Vasques a Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 5. c. 3. n. 137. In tanta varietate Catholici constituti sunt, ut molestum videatur, quid unusquisque sentiat recensere. saith, It is an irksome thing, to report, what each of them hath spoken. Some of them reject the Epistle, saying, that it was a counterfeit b Alan. Copus. Dial. 5. c. 21. San. d. 〈◊〉. l. 2. c. 4. Bel. d. In c. 9 Sua. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 1. dis. 54. sect. 1. Canis. d. Deip. vir. li. 5. c. 22. work. But this opinion is reproved, and confuted, by the learned of their own part c Vasq. ib. n. 40. Mihi vero minus haec responsio placer, arque in primis 〈◊〉 Epistolam Epiphanij esse, etiamsi nun cgraecum illius exemplar non inveniatur, in dubitatum esse debet, Tapia in 3. p. Tho. q. 27. ar. 8. pa. 341. ; and what can be more improbable, than that Saint Hierome would translate a counterfeit work? Others say that Epiphanius did this in a preposterous zeal d Tho. Waldens. 〈◊〉. 3. tit. 19 ca 157. n. 7. Forsan zelo captus erat, non secundum scientiam, etc. Puiol. d. Ador. disp. 3. sect. 1. pa. 200. . Ferdinandus Velosillus e Velos. Advert. in 2. 〈◊〉. Aug. q. 9 Epiphanius haer. Collirid. Statuas & imagines humanas earumque adorationem, acriter insectatur, quas & in Episto la ad johannem Hierosolymitanum iterum dente canino mordet, hic autem forsan ignorantia excusatur, eo quod contra Idololatras 〈◊〉 & ideohaereticis non anmumeratur. or Velosius (as Possevine calleth him) saith as followeth: Epiphanius, against the Colliridian heresy, inveigheth bitterly against Statues and Images of men, and against their worship. And again, in his Epistle to john Bishop of Jerusalem, he taunteth them currishly or despitefully (dente canino mordet) perhaps this man is excusable, by reason of ignorance, and because he wrote against Idolaters, wherefore he is not ranked among Haeretikes. Others affirm a Sixtus. Senen. Bibl. li. 5. Annot. 247. , that Epiphanius did this, because of the abuse of superstitious people, committed about that Picture. Others say b Alphons. Castro. Adu. 〈◊〉. li. 8. ver. Imago. he did thus, because the contrary was not as then defined by the Church. But Vasques c Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 5. c. 4. himself, and before him Marianus Victorius d Victor. Scholar sup. Hierom. insist upon this poor shift, which our Adversary followeth in this place, to wit, that this vale or curtain, which Epiphanius defaced, and rend asunder, contained an Image, or Picture, of some profane man, hanging in the Church, as if it had been a sacred image of Christ, or of some Saint, and which was worshipped by some Christians newly converted from Paganism, with heathenish honours. But if this gloss had been likely, it is very improbable, that Cardinal Bellarmine e Bel. d. Imag. c. 9 , and some other f Puiol d. Ador. disp. 3. sect. 1. Tapia in 3. p. Tho. q. 27. ar. 8. pa. 341. also, who have written since Vasques, would have esteemed it so lightly. And Epiphanius his text g Epist. Epiphan. apud Hieron. to. 3. Audivi quosdam murmurare contra me: quia quando simul pergebamus ad Sanctum locum qui vocatur Bethel, 〈◊〉 collectam tècum ex more Ecclesiastico facerem, & 〈◊〉 ad villam quae dicitur Anablatha, vidissemque ibi preteriens lucernam ardentem, & interrogassem quis locus esset, 〈◊〉 esse Ecclesiam, & intrassem ut orarem, inveni ibi velum pendens in foribus eiusdem Ecclesiae tinctum 〈◊〉 depictum, & habens imaginem quasi Christi, vel sancti cuiusdam, non enim satis 〈◊〉 cuius imago fuerit, Cum ergo hoc 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia Christi contra authoritatem Scripturarum 〈◊〉 pendere 〈◊〉, scidi illud, & magis dedi 〈◊〉 custodibus eiusdem loci, ut 〈◊〉 mortuum 〈◊〉 obvoluerent & efferrent, Ib. Et deinceps, praecipere in Ecclesia Christi, istiusmodi vela quae contra religionem nostram veniunt, non appendi. will not bear this exposition: For he saith that at the time when he wrote that Epistle, he did not remember (to wit, perfectly) whose image this was: but if Epiphanius himself did not remember whose image it was, whether of Christ, or of a Saint, or of some other man, how knows this jesuit, that it was the image of a profane person? Besides, if it had been the picture of some profane person or Pagan superstitiously 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated by 〈◊〉 ad verbum, quasi, is to be 〈◊〉, not by a note of compatison, but of 〈◊〉, or guessing, in things we 〈◊〉 not perfectly remember or know; as, vidi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉: or I saw a troop of horse, put case 100 worshipped, wherefore was Epiphanius silent, in relating hereof, considering that the bare narration of so gross a fact, would most apparently have justified the whole proceeding? but he affirmeth only in defence of his action, That entering into an Oratory, and there espying a veil or hanging, whereon was figured the image of a man, which he did not (when he wrote the Epistle) remember whether it were Christ his picture, or any other (of the Saints,) he cut the same in pieces, and withal commanded, that no such painted veils should hereafter be suffered to hang in the Church. Jesuit. Wherefore seeing this Minister, so much esteemed in the Church of England, saying what he can devose in proof of the Roman Churches change about Images, brings nothing but manifest falsehoods, so many in so few lines; any indifferent man may conclude, that worship of Images hath continued without change ever since the Apostles. For if any change in such matter as this had been made, it would have been most evident, when, and by whom so great a Novelty was introduced. ANSWER. The Minister whom you deprave, was no otherwise esteemed in the Church of England than 〈◊〉 an ordinary Student, and professor of Theology, neither was his authority in handling of controversies greater than the weight of his argument and disputation should deserve. And your Hyperbole, saying, That 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. li. 2. Ne 〈◊〉 Stomachi 〈◊〉 indigesta maledictorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. he bringeth nothing, but manifest falsehoods, is rather an undigested crudity of railing words, than a true censure of him, against whom you are better able to declaim, than dispute. But your threadbare argument, whereby you labour to prove, That worship of Images hath continued without change, ever since the Apostles, because it would have been most evident, when, and by whom, so great a novelty was introduced, hath at the least three lame feet. First, The Antecedent is false, for it is evident to judicious men, when, and by whom this novelty was brought in; as for those which are blinded with superstition, and have a feared conscience, nothing is evident to such a Theoph. 〈◊〉. lib. 1. ad Autolic. Omnibus quidem sunt oculi, at quotundam adeo sunt obscurati, ut solis lucem intueri nequeunt, caeterum non propterea solares radij fulgore carent, quod 〈◊〉 caeteris non videntur. Imo 〈◊〉 & suos oculos potius culpent. 〈◊〉. Serm. 2. d. Resur. Quam difficile est accedere ad cor eius, quod lapidea quaedam obstinatio & impudentia clausit. Seneca Epist. 15. Haupastes uxoris 〈◊〉 fatua vetula subito desijt videre, incredibilem tibi narro rem sed veram, nescit se esse caecam, subinde ducem suam rogat, ut foras exeat, ait 〈◊〉 tenebrosam esse. . Secondly, This Argument presupposeth, that Worship of Images was generally practised among Christians, in the days of the Apostles, and in the Primative Church; for otherwise, why shall Protestants be bound explicitly to assign the time of Alteration? If this practice was not Apostolical and Primative, the succeeding practice, whensoever it began, and whether we can assign or not assign, when and by whom, maketh not the same lawful. Thirdly, Ab ignoratione rei ad negationem non sequitur: It is inconsequent to argue, Protestants cannot out of humane History assign the moment of time when worship of Images first began to be practised in the Church, Ergo, This practice is not an Innovation. For Papists cannot assign the moment of time when Heathens first began to worship Baal and Ashtaroth, or when the Progenitors of Abraham began to serve other Gods, josh. 24. 2. And yet they will judge the consequence to be absurd, which should infer, because Papists cannot assign, when and by whom such Innovations began, therefore they were perpetual. We expect divine Revelation to warrant Adoration of Images, for unless that appear, the same cannot be a necessary duty in Religion. But the jesuit would ambush himself in the Labyrinth of Historical Discourse, which can produce only humane belief b 〈◊〉. d. 〈◊〉. l. 2. c. 25. Quod Historici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , non potest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 humanam cui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , when it is plain and certain, but being also uncertain and not faithfully kept, it may perplex and deceive, and beget contention, whereas on the contrary, Divine Revelation settles the conscience, and makes the Truth manifest. Jesuit. Jesuit 3. The places of Exodus and Deuteronomie, with no probability urged against the worship of Images, by Protestants that make them. Against Image worship, Protestants bring in the place of Exodus, Chap. 20. ver. 4. & 5. and of Deuteron. cap. 5. ver. 6. & 7. Thou shalt not have false gods before me, Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven Image, nor any likeness, either in the heaven above, or on the earth below, or of things that are under waters, or under ground: Thou shalt not adore, nor worship them. Which place I wonder they can think strong enough to overthrow a Custom, in which the rules of Nature, the principles of Christianity, the perpetual Tradition of God's Church, doth settle Christians; for this place makes against them, or not against us, which I prove thus: The Images we are forbidden to worship, we are forbidden to make; Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven Image, thou shalt not adore them, nor worship them. chose, The Jmages we may lawfully make, we may also lawfully adore or worship, if they be Images of venerable and adorable persons. But the Images which we worship of Christ, Protestants make, yea some, to wit, Lutherans, set them up in their Churches, and they are Images of an adoreable person: Ergo, They cannot condemn our Adoration of Jmages, except likewise they condemn their making them, as against Gods Law. ANSWER. The places of Scripture alleged by Protestants, against Adoration of Images, Exod. 20. 5. Deut. 5.8. are a part of the Moral Law a 〈◊〉. li. 4. c. 28. Nam Deus primo quidem per naturalia 〈◊〉. quae 〈◊〉 initio infixa. dedit 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est per Decalogum, (quae si quis non fecerit, non habeat salutem) & nihil plus ab eye 〈◊〉 Jbid. c. 〈◊〉. Decalogi quidem verba, ipse per semetipsum omnibus fimiliter Dominus 〈◊〉 est. Et ideo 〈◊〉 permanent apud nos, extensionem & augmentum, sed non dissolutionem accipientia, per carnalem eius adventum. August. c. Faust. Manich. l. 19 c. 18. & l. 3. c. 2. Epist. Pelag. ca 4. Tho. Aquin. 12. q. 100 ar. 1. Scholastici. in 3. sent. Dist. 37. Suarez. d. Relig. li. 2. c. 1. Caetera praecepta Decalogi, purè moralia sunt. Tertium vero (de Sabbatho) partim morale, partim ceremoniale fuit. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 22, q. 122. 〈◊〉. 4. ad. 1. Caietan. ibid. Alex. Hal. p. 3. q. 32. m. 2. Et omnes Scholastici & summistae. : therefore if the worshipping of Images was prohibited unto the Israelites in the same, it is also forbidden Christians, and to worship Images is unlawful in the state of the New Testament. The Adversary wondereth, why Protestants should think, that the 〈◊〉 places of Exodus and 〈◊〉, are strong enough to overthrow Image Worship, being 〈◊〉 upon 〈◊〉 of Nature, Christianity, and Tradition. First, This latter Clause is only a vain ostentation, and repetition of that which is formerly confuted. Secondly, The reason whereupon he groundeth his confident speech, saying, Which place I wonder they can think strong enough, is wondrous weak, as it will appear by the Resolution, and Answer of his Objection. This Argument in form is, If all worship of Images is prohibited, Exod. 20. etc. then all making them is also prohibited: for the same Precept, which saith, Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them, saith in the former part, Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven Image, etc. But all making of Images is not prohibited, Exod. 20. Because Protestants themselves allow some kind of Image making, Ergo, All worship of Images is not prohibited or condemned, Exod. 20, etc. but some kind only. Passing by the Assumption, Protestants deny the consequence of the first Proposition; and to the Proof thereof, they say, That although some kind and manner of making Images, is forbidden by the Commandment, to wit, such as is intended and prepared for worship: yet all making of Pictures or Images, to wit, for History and Ornament, is not prohibited. But our Adversary opposeth this Answer, saying: Jesuit. If they answer, That we are not absolutely forbidden to make them, but only not to make them with purpose and intention to adore them, they discover much partiality, and not so much reverence to God's express Word as they pretend; for the words of God's Law, are as clear and express against making of Jmages, as against worshipping them, Thou shalt not make them, thou shalt not adore them. If then Protestants, to excuse their Custom of making of Images, may to God's express word, Thou shalt not make them, add (by way of explication) with purpose and intention to adore them; why may not Catholics, to defend from note of impiety a continued Christian Custom, to God's word Thou shalt not adore any Image, add (by way of explication) as God, or with divine worship, resting in it? How can they truly boast they bring Gods clear word for themselves, and against us, which is no 〈◊〉 clear and express against their Image-making, than against our Jmage-worship? If the place be difficile, why build they their Faith upon it against us? If it be clear, why be they forced in their own defence, to depart from the express Text? ANSWER. The sum of this disputation reduced to form, is as followeth. If to God's express word, Thou shalt make unto thyself no graven Image, etc. we may add (by way of explication) Thou shalt make no Image, with intention to worship: Then, to God's express word, Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them, we may also add (by way of explication) Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them as God, or as God's proper Image, or with divine worship, resting in the Image; for the word of God is as clear and express against making of Images, as against worshipping of them. But Protestants affirm the former, and they expound the first branch of the Commandment, saying, that the sense of it is, Thou shalt make no Image with intent to worship it, Ergo, To God's express word, Thou shalt not bow down, etc. we may add (by way of explication) Thou shalt not bow down to worship them, as God, or with divine honour resting in the thing. And if Protestants deny the latter, they are partial in affirming the former. The consequence of the Proposition is again denied: For although we may expound the former part of the Commandment with this Explication, With intent to worship; yet we may not expound the latter part by saying, Thou shalt not bow down, etc. that is, although thou mayest worship some Images, according to some manner of worship, yet thou mayest not worship unlawful Images, expressing the very Deity, nor any Image, by resting finally and absolutely in them. And the reasons whereupon we ground our denial of the Consequence, are these. First, Moses himself repeating the law concerning Images, saith, Ye shall make you no Idol 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Oleast. sup. Exod. 20. Non facias tibi sculptile, id est, Imaginem alicuius rei, neque omnem similitudinem, qualiscunquè illa sit, sive Imago, sive similitudo imperfecta. 〈◊〉, sup. Exod. 20. Chaldeus pro sculptili Imaginem legit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ferus, sup. Exod. 20. Primò tam sculptilia prohibet, quam similitudines, hoc est tam sculpta, quam picta. Deindè Idola vel similitudines, quarumcunquè rerum prohibet fieri ut colantur. The old Translat. Deut. 4. 16. Sculptam similitudinem aut Imaginem. justin. Mart. in Tryph. pag. 25. Deus per Mosen sanxit ne qua Imago seu similitudo fiat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , nor 〈◊〉 Image, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to bow down unto it, Levit. 26.1. Secondly, the brazen Serpent, and the Cherubins, were lawfully made even by God's appointment, in the old Testament, and yet their worship was unlawful, 2. Reg. 18, 4. And some of the best learned Papists a Vasq. d. Ador. lib. 2. disp. 4. ca 6. n. 98. Read before pa. 213. Carol. Mag. c. Imag. lib. 1. ca 19 Nequè tabulae, nequè duo Cherubin, nec caetera 〈◊〉 ad adorandum in veteri testamento facta fuisse creduntur: quid 〈◊〉 aliud faciunt, nisi ut Imagines exaltent, Christianorum res extenuent? Cum videlicet, Tabulae, & duo Cherubin, exemplaria fuerint futurorum, & cum duo judei habuerint carnalitèr, resquè typicis opertae figuris praefigurationes figurarum fuerint futurorum, nos habemus in veritate spiritualitèr. acknowledge, that the Cherubins might not be worshipped. Thirdly, jesuit Vasques b Vasq. d. Adorat. lib. 2. disp. 4. c. 6. n. 98. Resp. Lege veteri non fuisse vetitam omnem similitudinem aut effigiem quomodocunquè, sed omné cultum, & adorationem ipsius, atquè adeo omnem quoquè Imaginem seu effigiem modo accommodato adorationi, erectam aut constitutam: quare nec Cherubinis, nec aliis figuris in Templo factis aliquem cultum fuisse delatum. saith, That in the old Law, every similitude or portraiture was not forbidden to be made, but all worship and adoration of Images, and all making of an Image, or portraiture, appointed or accommodated to worship, was forbidden. Yea besides Tertullian c Tertul. c. Marc. lib. 2. cap. 22. Proindè & similitudinem vetans fieri omnium quae in Coelo & in terra & in aquis ostendit, & causas Idololatriae, 〈◊〉, substantiam cohibentes subijcit enim non adorabitis ea nequè seruietis illis. Sic & Cherubin & Seraphim aurea in 〈◊〉 figuratum exemplum certè simplex ornamentum, accommodata suggestui, long diversas habendo causas ab Idololatriae conditione, ob quam similitudo prohibetur, non videntur similitudinum prohibitarum legi refragari non in eo similitudinis statu deprehensa, ob quem similitudo prohibetur. and Damascen d Damasc. Orat. 1. d. Imag. Vides quomodò vitandi fimulachrorum cultus gratia Imagines fieri vetat? , the greatest number of Papals expound the first part of the second Commandment by the latter branch, to wit, Gerson, e Gers. Compend. Theol. d. 10. precept. Prohibentur fieri ad hunc, videlicet, finem ut adorentur, & colantur. , Ferus f Ferus sup. Exod. 20. Quod hic dicitur de non faciendis quibuscunquè Imaginibus intelligi debet ad adorandum ea, ut in Levitico expresse ponitur. , Caietan g Caietan. sup. Exod. 20. , Alphonsus Castro h Alphons. Castr. c. Haer. lib. 8. verb. Imago. Non ut non habeantur, aut fiant absolutè, sed ut non fiant ad colendum ea. , Oleaster i Oleast. sup. Exod. 20. Vt non fiat sculptile aut Imago, scilicet, ad cultum. , Ystella k Ystell. sup. Exod. 20. v. 7. , Turrecremat l Turrecremat. sup. Decret. d. Consecrat. Dist. 3. ca perlatum. Non prohibetur illo praecepto, facere quamcunquè sculpturam, vel similitudinem, sed facere ad adorandum , and Aquinas m Aquin. 3. p. q. 25. ar. 3. Ad. 1. himself hath these words, Non prohibetur illo praecepto, Exod. 20. facere quamcunque sculpturam, vel similitudinem, sed facere ad adorandum, It is not forbidden in that precept, Exod. 20. to make any graven Image, or similitude; but, to make the same to worship it. And from the former I infer, That although some Pictures and Images may be made, yet none of them may be worshipped, and therefore we are compelled to expound the first words of the second Commandment, with limitation, to wit, Thou shalt make unto thyself no Image, with an intent to worship it: but on the contrary, we may not expound the second clause of the Commandment, by adding the jesuits Exposition, which is, Thou shalt not bow down to them, or worship them as God, or with divine worship resting in the Image. The first clause of the Commandment, Thou shalt make no graven Image, admits an explication and qualification, as it is apparent by the brazen Serpent, and by the Cherubins a Tertul. c. Marc. li. 2. ca 22. Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 4. c. 6. n. 99 Quo loco non docet Tertullianus, ut falso Pamelius putavit, in vereri lege solum esse prohibitum similitudines & effigies pro Dijs adorari. , and by the confession of learned Papists b Ferus sup. Exod. 20. Non iustifico abusus, sed hoc tantum volo, quod Ecclesia filijs suis ob occulos ponens Imagines Christi, & Sanctorum non facit contrà hoc praeceptum: non enim ideo ea proponit ut colantur, sed ut admoneant & doceant, admoneant doctos, doceant indoctos. . If our Adversaries give instance in the Ark of the Testament, saying that the same was adored: I answer two things: First, there is a difference between the Ark and Images, because God was present by an extraordinary Grace, unto the Ark, according to a covenant made with the Israelites, Exod. 25. 22. whereas there is no such promise or covenant concerning Images. Secondly, the Israelites did not adore the material Ark, but they worshipped God himself before the Ark, and that by a special commandment, 1. Sam. 1.19. Psal. 99.5. But that the second clause of the Commandment admits a qualification, cannot be proved by any testimony or example of holy Scripture: yea the contrary is manifest, and learned Papists c Anton. Perez. Laurea Salmantic. d. Imag. Vsu. Nec iterum valet dicere cum Card. Bellarmino, praeceptum Exodi non prohibere omnem omnino 〈◊〉 hoc est Imaginem, sed duntaxat illam quae pro Deo alieno extruitur, etc. Quoniam ut habet communis scholasticorum sententia, & antiquorum statutum & 〈◊〉 verbum, omnium lmaginum usus fuit veteri lege sublatus, etc. Respondet. Ib. ca 6. Omnis similitudinis species veteri lege fuit sublata, quae adorationi videbatur accommodata. Vellosil. Advert. in 2. To. Aug. q. 9 affirm, That although some kind of Images might be made in the old Testament, yet no Images form by humane invention might be adored, as I have formerly showed out of Aquinas, and others, pag. 209. And consequently the jesuits speech is false, when he affirmeth, The word of God is as clear and express against making of Images, as against worshipping them. Jesuit. Secondly, their exposition is not only violent against the Text, but also incongruous against the sense; for God's prohibition of a thing, doth also forbid the intention thereof. In the precept, Thou shalt not kill, the intention of murder is sufficiently forbidden; so that he who makes a sword with purpose to murder his enemy, sins against the Precept, Thou shalt not kill: wherefore if Gods Precept had been thus, Thou shalt not wear about thee any weapon, Thou shalt not kill, the prohibition of wearing weapons should have been absolute, and not only with purpose of murder. In like manner, God's Precept, Thou shalt not adore Images, doth sufficiently forbid intention to adore them, and so consequently forbids the making of Images, with such an intention; so that if not to make Jmages, be nothing else than not to have purpose to adore them, a whole long sentence in the 〈◊〉 is superfluous, and without any special sense, which is scarcely credible. ANSWER. This Argument reduced to form, soundeth as followeth: If God's prohibition of a thing doth also forbid the intention thereof, than it had been sufficient for him to have said, Thou shalt not adore Images: and the former clause, Thou shalt make no graven Image, etc. forbidding only the making of Images, with an intention to worship, had been superfluous, and without any special sense. But God held it not sufficient to say, Thou shalt not adore Images: and the former clause, Thou shalt make no Image, is not superfluous, etc. Ergo The former clause of the Commandment, which saith, Thou shalt make no graven Image, forbiddeth not the making of Images, with an intention to worship. And from hence it appeareth, that the Protestants exposition of the second Commandment, is not only violent but incongruous. I answer, granting the antecedent part of the first Proposition; (for whensoever God forbiddeth any action, he always prohibiteth, at least implicitly, & interpretatively, the purpose and intention of doing the same.) But from hence it followeth not, that because the worship of Images is prohibited in the words, Thou shalt not bow down to them, etc. therefore it was unnecessary and superfluous, to say, Thou shalt make no Images, with intention to worship. First, touching such vices as man by nature and custom is prone unto, Abundans cautela non nocet, abundant warning and caution is not superfluous. Secondly, we have examples in the very Decalogue, that although inordinate concupiscence was prohibited in the seventh and eight Commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal: yet the intention, and sensual motion and desire to do this, is prohibited also in the tenth Precept a August. sup. Exod. q. 71. Quaeritur quid disterat quod dictum est, non maechaberis, ab eo quod paulo post dictum est, non concupisces, etc. In eo quippe quod dictum est, non maechaberis poterat & illud intelligi: nisi sorsan in illis duobus praeceptis, non maechandi & non furandi, ipsa opera notata sunt: in hijs vero extremis ipsa concupiscentia, etc. . Thirdly, we say not in our answer, That the intention of adoring the Image, being made, is forbidden in these words of the Commandment, Thou shalt make unto thyself no graven Image, etc. as these words are considered apart, that is, dividing, and parting the said words from those which follow, Thou shalt not 〈◊〉 down to them, nor worship them: But we conjoin the former and latter words b Aug. sup. joh. tr. 111. Nemo serenissimum sensum, nubi. josa contradictione perturbet, consequentia perhibeant testimonium, precedentibus verbis. , and make the one material, and the other formal, and expound them in this sort; Thou shalt make unto thyself no graven Image, intending to use the same contrary to the words of the Law following, which prohibit the Adoration of all created and artificial forms. When our Saviour in the Gospel, forbiddeth to look on a woman to lust after her, Matth. 5.28. We may not divide the first and latter part: for the looking on a woman without lust, is only material in the Action, and it may be lawful, and in some case virtuous, joh. 19.26. Luk. 7.44. But we must conjoin the Intention, which is formal, to the material aspect, and then the same is vicious, job 31.1. Genes. 38.15. And there is nothing more common in the holy Scripture, than for the former part of a Doctrine, or Commandment, to be expounded, limited, and receive his kind from the latter part, Mark. 10.11. Luk. 16.18. Psal. 37.21. job 31.26, 27. Esay 5.8, 11. Luk. 14.12, 13. If it be objected, that there is a sof Pasuch, or full point at the end of the Sentence, which forbiddeth the making of Images: I answer, First, That in the place of Leviticus, Cap. 26.1. There is no such period or full point. Secondly, Because the making of some kind of Images, to wit, visible Images, and representations of God, according to his Deity c Abulens. sup. Deuteronom. ca 4. q. 5. Quaedam sunt, quae nec in Statue, nec in figura congrue assignari possunt, sicut Trinitas beata, quae nullis cerporeiss 〈◊〉 circumscripta est. 〈◊〉. sup. Deuteronom. q. 1. Haec dicit instruens eos, ne simulachrum 〈◊〉 fabricent, neque tentent unquam diumam Imaginem effingere. Clem. Alex. Strom. lib. 1. pag. 165. Origen. c. Celsum. li. 7. Euseb. d. praepar. Euang. l. 1. c. 6. Vasq. d. Ador. l. 2. Disp. 4. c. 2. Ex Deuteronomij quarto, clare deducitur, non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verum Deum in aliqua imagine venerari. , Deut. 4. 16. is unlawful in itself, secluding Adoration, therefore the Spirit of God forbade both the making of Images, to wit, of false Gods, and of the true God, in manner aforesaid; and also in the other Branch of the Commandment, he forbade worship and adoration of all Images whatsoever, devised by man. Jesuit. Besides, as to make an Image to adore, is Idolatry; so likewise to take it in hand, or look on it to that purpose. Why then was not such looking on, or touching, with purpose of Adoration, expressly forbidden, as well as making? Or if looking on them, with intention to adore them, be so included in the Precept, Thou shalt not adore, as there needs not that expression; What need was there, that making of Images, with purpose of Adoration, should be so largely and particularly expressed? Wherefore, whosoever is a Religious follower of God's pure Word, must either without explication, condemn the making of Images, together with their worship, or else allow the worship of the Jmages (if their Prototypes be adorable) the making whereof he approves. ANSWER. Although to take in hand, or to behold an Image, or 〈◊〉 sign, natural or artificial, with intent to worship it, be 〈◊〉, job. 31. 26. yet as God Almighty in other Commandments doth not always literally and expressly set down every particular action of sin, virtually and 〈◊〉 condemned in the same a Tortul. d. Idol. c. 9 Cum magia punitur, 〈◊〉 species est Astrologia, utique & species in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Cap. 11. 〈◊〉 interdictio, ostendit mihi, lanistam quoque ab Ecclesia 〈◊〉. , but delivereth sufficient grounds, from whence the unlawfulness thereof may appear; and also in the Prophets, and other divine Scriptures, declareth his own will more fully, Matth. 5. 21, 28. So likewise, in this Commandment, concerning Images, the unlawfulness of handling, beholding, and the like, are prohibited virtually and interprevatively; 〈◊〉 in one of the Clauses of the Commandment, but in both Clauses conjoined, as aforesaid. As for the jesuits Interrogations, Why then etc. What need was there etc. we refer him to the Lawmaker, to challenge or demand reasons of him: And as for ourselves, we rest upon the revealed will of God b Clem. Alexandr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Qui 〈◊〉 verbo veritatis, operantur aliquid, vel loquuntur, sunt similes eyes, qui conantur ingredi absque pedious. , not daring to question or demand reasons of his actions. Jesuit. Hence I gather, That the most natural and truest Exposition of that Precept is, that it forbids not only the worship, but also the making of any graven Image. But how? To represent God according to his Divine substance. This sense is gathered out of the words precedent, Thou shalt not have strange Gods before me, which is explicated in the consequent verse, Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven Image: For he that makes to himself the Image of any thing, as apt to represent God according to his Divine substance, and to convey our imaginations directly to him, doth make and hath false Gods; because the true God is not imaginable, nor is truly apprehended by imagination, conformable unto any Image. ANSWER. That is not the most natural and truest Exposition of the Commandment, which delivereth only a part, and not the whole and entire sense. But this Exposition of the jesuit delivereth only a part, and not the whole sense. For our Adversaries themselves confess, That the placing of Images of false Gods, and of profane persons, in Oratories and Temples, or of any other persons a Epiphan. Epist. read before. , which are not worthy b Cabrer. in 3. p. Thom. q. 25. Ar. 2. Disp. 1. aliquid adoratur cultu religioso Deo vel sanctis 〈◊〉, quod tali 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est. to be worshipped with that honour, is unlawful; and I suppose they will not deny, that the forming of the Images of Angels and Saints, with intent that they should be worshipped with 〈◊〉 honour, either absolute or respective, is unlawful, and consequently, prohibited by this Commandment. For although the Adoration of created or artificial things is prohibited in the first Commandment, Thou shalt have no other Gods but me; yet the forming and erecting Images of any kind to be the outward means of such Idolatrous worship, is prohibited in this Commandment, Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven Image, etc. Levit. 26.1. And thus Tertullian c Tertul. d. Idol. c. 5. & 6. , Clemens Alexandrinus d Clem. Alexandrinus, Adm. ad Gent. , and many other Fathers e Procop. 〈◊〉. Exod. 20. 〈◊〉. d. Pict. & Imag. , expound the Commandment. Jesuit. Wherefore the pictures of the Holy Ghost, in form of a Dove; and of God the Father, in form of an old man, be not direct and proper Images of the two divine persons; but only of the Dove that descended on Christ, and of the old man seen in a vision by Daniel, in which the perfections of these persons are not lively represented, but a far off, and imperfectly shadowed, nor do Catholics use them as proper Images standing for their Prototypes, and conveying our actions by imagination unto them. For no Catholic doth kiss the feet of the Dove, or lie prostrate at them, referring by imagination that outward subjection to the feet of the Holy Ghost, who hath no feet, but metaphorical, not imaginable, nor such as can be represented by image. ANSWER. You slubber over the matter of Images, of the persons of the Trinity, which are used in the Roman Church (as experience witnesseth, and your own Doctors d Sua. in 3. p. Th. to. 1. dis. 54. sect. 2. Nunquam Romana Eccles. etc. Cab. in 3. q. 25. dis. 1. n. 80. Puiol. d. Ado. Disp. 3. Sec. 4. Constat quod haec consuetudo depingedi Angelos & Deum, modo sub specie Columbae, modo sub figura Trinitatis sit ubique inter Catholicos recepta imo 7. Synod. Act. 5. Spiritus Sancti Imaginem sub specie columbae, 〈◊〉 sub figura Trinitatis approbat, & Concilium Tridentinum. Sess. 25. admittit Imagines Dei in picturis, precipuè Historiarum. acknowledge) and you conceal part of your Popish doctrine. For although you affirm, that these Images are not proper, but metaphorical representations of the divine persons: yet you hold, that these represent, not only the effects and operations of the said persons, but also God himself; and you teach also, that they are to be e Gandau. Quodl. 10. q. 6. Tertio modo adorari potuit latria Columba, in qua 〈◊〉 Spiritus Sanctus. Puiol. d. Adoratione. Disp. 3. Sect. 4. Quamuis verum sit, 〈◊〉 figuras corporales, sub quibus Deus apparebat, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illi Hypostaticè unitas, tamen revera Deus, sub illis figuris apparuit, & sub illis operatus est aliqua beneficia: unde Imago representans figuram sub qua Deus apparuit, non solum est imago effectus Dei, sed ipsius Dei, non secundum se, sed ut & operantis, & conferentis nobis aliquod beneficium, atque adeo tales Imagines venerandae sunt. worshipped as sacred signs; metaphorically shadowing and representing, the persons whereunto they have relation: and the opinion of f Durand. 3. d. 9 q. 2. n. 15. Nihil factum per modum Imaginis ad representandum Diu. personas non incarnatas, est adorandum. Fatuum est (tales) Imagines facere vel eas venerari. Durand and Abulensis g Abul. Deut 4. q. 5. Quaedam sunt quae nec in statue nec in figura congruè assignari 〈◊〉, sicut Trinitas beata, etc. holding the contrary, is condemned by the common sentence of later Pontificians, among which Caietan h 〈◊〉. in 3. p. Tho. q. 25. ar. 3. Haec nonsolum pinguntur ut ostendantur, sicut Cherubin olim in templo, sed ut adorentur. saith, Images of the Trinity are painted (in the Roman Church, not only that they may be showed, or looked on) as the Cherubins of old time were in the temple, but that they may be adored. Therefore if Romish Catholics do not kiss them, or lie prostrate before them (as our jesuit affirmeth) they observe not the ordinance of their Church, as the same is related by the renowned Cardinal Caietan, JESVIT. Wherefore this Text being thus clearly explicable, and being not explicated at all, doth make no less against Protestants than us: I see no reason why they should be so much out of love with the worship of the image of Christ jesus their Lord, to which Nature and Christianity binds them. ANSWER. The sum of this part of your disputation is, That in the text of Exodus, To fall down and worship images, is no more forbidden than to make: but making of images is not simply and absolutely unlawful; and consequently their worship is not simply and absolutely unlawful. The first ground and proposition of this argument is false: for worshipping of images is forbidden, as the principal object of that negative precept, and as a thing morally evil in his very kind: but making them is forbidden (only) when it is a means subseruient to worship: and because it may be separated, both in his own nature, and in man's intention, from that end and use, therefore the one is simply forbidden, and the other is only prohibited, when it becometh a means or instrument to the other. And this distinction and disparity between making and worshipping, hath been confirmed by the example of the brazen Serpent: for when the same was only made, and looked upon, it was a medicine; when it was worshipped, it became a poison. 2 Kings 18.4. Wherefore, considering that the holy Scripture approveth the difference which Protestants assign, between making and worshipping of images, I see no reason why Papists should not rest upon the sentence of holy Scripture, always condemning, but never maintaining Image worship; rather than to persist in a palpable superstition, to the offence of God, and scandal of his people. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. Inconveniences which may come by occasion of Images, easily prevented, and their utilities very great. ANother Argument against Images, Protestants much urge, That they be stumbling blocks for simple people, who easily take an Image to be the very God, even as the Pagans did in former time; to this purpose bringing some Testimonies out of S. Augustine. August. Ep. 49. & in Psal. 113. ANSWER. THis is not the Protestants Objection, but the jesuits fiction, We say that Image worship is a stumbling block, both to the learned and the simple, for it is in itself a superstition, or undue manner of Worship, never approved or ratified, by any Precept, Promise, or blessing of God, in the Old Testament, or by Christ and his Apostles in the New. Secondly, The manner of worshipping Images, according to the Popish tenet, is so subtle and intricate, even to the learned themselves, that it must of necessity be difficile for the unlearned to conceive the same, and consequently, not to err in the performance of it. Thirdly, When it is performed with greatest intelligence, what fruit and reward can be reaped, other than such as our Saviour spoke of the Pharisees, saying, In vain do you worship me, teaching for Doctrines the Precepts of men. And although Saint Augustine, Epist. 49. and again, sup. Psal. 113. speaketh literally of Pagan Images, yet he declareth in general, the peril which all Images (being adored) may bring unto weaker minds, and condemneth the use of them, even when they are not adored for themselves, but made instruments to worship God; saying in one place, a August. d. Consens. Euang. lib. 1. cap. 10. Sic omnino errare 〈◊〉 qui Christum & Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus, sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt. Thus have they deserved to err, which sought Christ in painted Images, and not in written Books. Jesuit. To this I answer, First, that this may seem a great wrong, not only to the Christian Church, but also to Christ himself, to think that men endued with his knowledge and Faith, and made partakers of the light, whereby they believe the most high, divine, and incomprehensible mysteries which he revealed to the world, should so easily be carried away into such blockish errors, as to think a stock or stone to be God; a blindness scarce incident unto men, except they be wholly destitute of all heavenly conceits, and nuzzled up in their Cradle in that persuasion, as paynims were, of whom only Saint Augustine speaks; for they did not only want this light of Christian instruction, but also were taught by their Ancestors, that in their idols a kind of divine virtue or Godhead was lodged, in and Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. Non quod credatur aliqua in eyes inesse divinitas vel virt' propter quam sint colendae. affiged unto them: Whereas Catholic Doctrine teacheth the contrary, That our Images are bare resemblances of holy persons, no divinity, no virtue, no dignity, no 〈◊〉, that makes them venerable, being in them, but in the Prototype. ANSWER. Image worship may be a scandal to Christian people, although they offend not so rudely and grossly in their worship, as paynims did: and yet that Image worship hath been a stumbling block to many Christians, Papists themselves testify. Ludovicus Viues, an eye witness of that he spoke, saith a Ludovic. Vin. in Aug. d. Ciu. Dei. l. 8. c. 27. , Non video in multis quod sit discrimen inter eorum opinionem de Sanctis, & id quod Gentiles putabant de dijs suis: I cannot perceive, touching many things, what difference there is between their opinion of Saints, and that which the Gentiles had concerning their gods. And if Christians were in no peril of Idolatry by worshipping Images, why doth Gerson complain b Gers. to. 1. d. prob. Spirit. num. 17. lit. 10. 〈◊〉 superstitiones in populis, quae Religionem inficiunt Christianam, dum sicut olim Iudaei sola signa quaerunt, dum Imaginibus exhibent 〈◊〉 cultum: dum insuper hominibus nedum canonizatis, Scriptures quoque non authenticis plusquam Sanctis in Euangelio praestant fidem. , that superstition had infected Christian Religion, and that people, like jews, did only seek after fignes, and yield divine honour to Images. And the same Author affirmeth a Id. to. 3. d. Exerc. Devot. simple. Poterit contingere, dum homo nimis cogirat cum Imaginibus, & de rerum corporalium circústantijs, ut propter phantasiae fluxibilitatem, & invisibili hoste illudente & cooperante, deveniat à devotis & pijs cogitationibus ad cogitatus turpes & impios, à puris affectionibus ad immundas, à Spiritualibus ad carnales, & nonnunquam à Sanctis cogitationibus ad execrandae blasphemiae cogitationes, prout in nonnullis devotis personis in his incautis, compertum quandoque est. In ipsa etiam veneranda. Imagine crucifixi, ex nimia fixa consideratione circa corporis Dominici nuditatem eiusque foemoralium. Qui casus sicut mulierculis est valde possibilis, sic vice versa poterit casus iste & viris esse non impossibilis, si nimis figantur eorum cogitatus erga sanctarum virginum Imagines corporeas, prout etiam experientia nonnullos docuit. , that some devout people, by aspect of Images, were diverted from holy cogitations and pure affections, to carnal, execrable, and blasphemous thoughts. And Cornelius Agrippa b Cornel. Agrip. d. van. scient. d. Imag. fol. 73. col. 2. saith, Dici non potest guanta superstitione ne dicam Idololatria, penes rudem & indoctam plebem alatur in Imaginibus, conniventibus ad haec Sacerdotibus, hinc non paruum lucri questum percipientibus: It is not to be spoken, how great Idolatry is fostered among rude people by Image worship, while the Priests connive at these things, and make no small gain thereby. Durandus Mimatensis saith c Durand. Rational. Diu. l. 1. c. 3. n. 4. Possunt simplices & infirmi (per nimium & indiscritum imaginum usum) facile ad Idololatriam trahi. , That weak and simple people, by indiscreet, and too much using of Images, may be drawn to Idolatry. And Gabriel Biel d Biel. Can. Miss. lect. 49. lit. v. Ex illis patet, quorundam hominum stolidus error, qui adeò ad Imagines afficiuntur, ut in ipsis credant esse aliquid Numinis, gratiae, vel sanctitatis, quib' potentes fint facere miracula, praestare sanitates, eripere à periculis, & à nocumentis ac insidijs praeseruare. Ib. Arguitur ex eodem: nonnullorum indocta simplicitas & indiscretio qua reverentius adorant Imagines pulchras, quam turpes novas quam vetustas, aut è contra ornatas venustiori auro & purpura quam nudas: credentes eos eo Sanctiores quo pretiosiores. saith, That some people are so foolish, as that they think some deity or sanctity to be in Images, whereby they are able to work marvels, to confer bodily health, to deliver from dangers, nocuments, and deceits: and their ignorant simplicity and indiscretion is such, that they more reverently adore fair Images than foul, ancient Images than such as are newly made, such as are clothed richly with gold and purple than those which are naked. Cassander saith e Cass. Consult. d. Imag. manifestius est, quam ut multis verbis explicari debeat, imaginum & simulachrorum cultum nimium in valuisse, & affectioni seu 〈◊〉 superstitioni populi, plus satis indultum esse, ita ut ad summam adorationem, quae vel à Paganis, suis simulachris exhiberi consuevit, & ad extremam vanitatem quam Ethnici in suis simulachris & imaginibus effingendis & exornandis admiserunt, nil à 〈◊〉 reliqui factum esse videatur. , It is more manifest, than that it can be denied, That the worship of Images and Idols hath too much prevailed, and the superstitious humour of people hath been so cockered, that nothing hath been omitted among us, either of the highest Adoration or vanity of paynims, in worshipping and adoring Images. Polydore f Polyd. Virg. d. Invent. lib. 6. cap. 13. Caeterum illud atque adeo desiderari possit ut Sacerdotes frequentius populum docerent, quonam pacto deberent & venerari eiusmodi Imagines & apud eas sua offerre donaria, quam quia illi tacent, & vulgo ex suo usu tacere putantur, id circo eo insaniae deventum est, ut haec pietatis pars parum differat ab impietate: sunt enim bene multi 〈◊〉, stupidioresque qui Saxeas vel ligneas 〈◊〉, aeneas, seu in parietibus pictas, varijsque coloribus litas Imagines colant non ut 〈◊〉, said perinde quasi ipsae sensum aliquem habeant, & iis magis fidant quam Christo, vel aliis divis quibus dicatae sint. also saith, People are grown to such madness, that this piety (of Image worship) differs little from impiety, for there are many rude and stupid persons, which adore Images of wood, stone, marble, and brass, or painted in windows, not as signs, but as though they had sense, and they repose more trust in them, than in Christ or the Saints, to which they are dedicated. And Simon Maiolus a Maiolus, Def. Imag. Cent. 9 c. 19 Agrestes quidam Imagines ipsas Dei loco habét. L. 〈◊〉 Sum. Eccles. p. 3. c. 3. In Asturijs, Cantabria, & Galetia nostrae Hispaniae, etc. adeò gens affecta est truncis corrosis, & deformibus Imaginibus, ut me teste, quoties Episcopi illas renovant, & decentiores loco illarum ponere iubent in suis paraeciarum visitationibus, veteres suas 〈◊〉 plorantes, & novas nequè aspicere velint, quasi non idem Prototypum, etc. , a most eager defender of Iconolatrie, confesseth, That some rural persons esteem Images as if they were God. Therefore, seeing such abuses and Idolatries are committed among Christians, in the worship of Images, as the former Author's report, we have no reason to believe the jesuits bare word, affirming, that presupposing the diligence of the Church, instructing ignorant people, there can be no superstition or idolatry committed in worshipping Images. Jesuit. Secondly such Idols as paynims adored, many of them did by the Devil's means ordinarily speak, give answers, move, and exercise other actions of life, so that their speaking was not accounted miraculous and extraordinary, but rather their silence: which speakings were very potent to persuade men to believe what their ancestors told them, that those very stocks and stones were Gods, or had a godhead affixed unto them: now these kind of things seldom happen in our Images, scarce once in an age: and when they happen, they were taken as miracles, wrought not by the Images, or any virtue residing in them, but by God's infinite power: nor are they brought to prove any excellency affixed unto the Image, but only that God liketh that we should honour our Saviour, and his Saints, in their Images. ANSWER. The jesuit confesseth, that Popish Images did sometimes speak a Simon 〈◊〉, Def. sacr. Imag. Centur. 7. c. 4. Imago Christi Basilium Praesbyterum alloquitur. , move b Vincent. spec. hist. Quem à piscatoribus inventum, & in Basilica Apostolorum principis loculo deportatum, quaedam Sanctorum Imagines adorasse, & venerabilitèr salutasse visae sunt, palàm omnibus. Math. Paris. Chron. pa. 360. Quotiescunquè miles genua flexit, ut Imaginem adoraret, Imago Crucifixi ad genu flexiones eius, caput & collum humilitèr inclinavit. Catherine. d. sanct. glor. lib. 2. pag. 71. De Crucifixi Imagine Neapoli, illud Christi oraculum Thomas noster audivit: benè de me scripsisti Thoma. B. quoquè Brigitta, etc. , etc. but then he affirmeth, that this happened by miracle, and by the infinite power of God: but he must remember, that other learned Pontificians say, That this latter happened sometimes by the fraud of the Devil, and cheating of Priests, as well as the fotmer, which he reporteth of paynims. Gabriel Biel saith a Biel. Can. miss. lect. 49. lit. X. Quod si aliquando miracula fiunt, homini bus etiam ad ea confluentibus, adiutoria, aut sanitates praestantur, non baec 〈◊〉 tute Imaginum sed virtute Dei, ministerio bonorum Angelorum, ad intercessiones Sanctorum contingunt vel etiàm nonnunquam operatione Doemonum, ad fallendum 〈◊〉 cultores, Deo permittente, exìgente talium infidelitate. , That by the permission of God, punishing infidelity, miracles are sometimes wrought by the Devil, working by Images. And Espencoeus b Espenc. Com. 2. Timoth. c. 4. nu. 21. pag. 151. hath these words, That some in the second Nicene Synod propugned Images, Doemonum spectris, by Apparitions, which proceeded of the Devil. William Malmesburie c Malmsb. d. gest. Reg. Ang. lib. 2. cap. 9 reporteth how the Crucifix uttered a speech concerning S. Dunstan. But Polidore Virgil d Polider. Hìst. 〈◊〉. lib. 6. in his Chronicle, speaking of the credit of this miracle, saith, It was thought by many, that this was rather an Oracle of Apollo, than of God, and that it proceeded from the fraud of men, and not from divine power. Jesuit. Finally, I dare say, That vulgar and ordinary Protestants in England, by reading of the Bible in their mother tongue, are in greater danger to believe, that God is a body, and hath all the parts thereof, even as hath a man, than any the simplest Catholic is to think an Image to be God. This is proved to be likely, because it is impossible to conceive God otherwise than in the form of a corporal thing: and (as the Orator saith) we easily flatter ourselves Cicero de Natura Deorum. to think our shape the fairest, and so the fittest for God: Wherefore it is easy for men to assent to this error, unto which the best and greatest wits that ever were, Tertullian, Tertul. apud Aug. d. Haeres Haer. 86. August. lib. 3. Confess. c. 7. and S. Augustine, whilst he was a Manichee did assent: much more easily therefore may ignorant people be deceived herein, through weakness of conceit, and inclination of nature, when they read the Scripture describing God, as having the form and shape of man, with head, face, eyes, ears, hands, feet. On the contrary side, never any Christian did teach, that the Image of Christ is truly Christ, or a living thing; nor ever did any man or woman, except some few, and these very simple and senseless, (if such Histories be true) fall into such foolish imagination. ANSWER. I perceive whereat you aim, in this odious comparison: you would have God's book buried in darkness, and compel Christians to seek Christ and his Apostles in painted walls, and dead statues a Aug. d. Consens. Euang. li. 1. ca 10. Sic omninò errare meruerunt, qui Christum & Apostolos eius, non in sanctis codicib', said in pictis parietibus quesierunt. . And whereas you say, vulgar and ordinary Protestants in England, (not in Scotland, France, Denmark, etc.) by reading of the Bible in their mother tongue: (and yet Tertullian and S. Augustine, in whom you give instance, read the Bible in a Latin Translation) are in greater danger to believe that God is a body, etc. than any the simplest Catholic is to think an Image to be God: It is answered, That notwithstanding your I dare say: you are not able to prove, that any person, civil or rude, hath (at any time, among us) been infected with the Humaniformian error, by hearing or reading the Bible. I marvel also why you rank not the Apostles Creed among prohibited Books, as well as vulgar translations of the Bible; for ignorant people, rehearsing the article, He sitteth at the right hand of God, might more easily imagine God to be corporeal, than by reading Scripture; because herein, that which in one Text is delivered metaphorically, is plainly and spiritually declared in other Texts; and the like is not done in the brief summary of the Creed. But on the contrary, many of your own Doctors (formerly cited) complain of the brutish superstition committed by sundry of your people, in worshipping Images. It may be, they think not the Images which they adore, to be very God (for Heathen people were scarcely so rude b Origen. c. Cels. lib. 7. Celsus haudquaquàm pro Dijs 〈◊〉 se habere affirmat, sed Dijs dicata. Clem. Ro. Recog. li. 5. p. 73. Per alios Serpens ille proferre verba huiusmodi solet: nos ad honorem invisibilis Dei, Imagines 〈◊〉 adoramus. Arnob. c. Gent. lib. 6. Deos inquitis per simulachra adoramus. Aug. in Psal. 113. Non hoc visibile colo, sed numen quod illis invisibilitèr 〈◊〉, (dixerunt Pagani.) Chrys. Orat. 12. d. Prima Dei noticia. Maximus Tyreus. serm. 38. (asseverant Gentiles) summum, primum maximum Deum creatorem omnium & 〈◊〉 à se in simulachris, etc. coli. julianus. ap. Surium. to. 5. fol. 881. Non tanquam Deos colunt eorum Imagines, etc. Ferus. sup. Act. Apost. ca 17. Tam etsi Gentiles, Idola sibi praestituebant, tamen eorum animus erat, vero Deo cultum exhibere. ) yet they may believe they are the seat of God, and that some divine majesty and power is inhabiting in them; or that they are divine instruments to convey graces and benefits to people which adore them; and that in worshipping them, they merit salvation, and the like. Now as for the letter of sacred Scripture, if any rude person should suck error from thence, the offence is taken, and not given (for the reading thereof is lawful and holy.) But when Roman Masters impose adoration of Images upon simple people, if these be ensnared by that action, the scandal is active, and it is extreme presumption in the Roman Clergy, to prescribe a form of worship (never approved or commended, but always censured by holy writ) which being omitted can hurt none, but being observed endangereth many. Lastly, you censure Tertullian for holding the Deity to be corporeal: but S. Augustine a August. Quod vult. De: Haeres. 86. Nec tamen hinc Haereticus creditur esse factus. Posset enim quoquam modo putari, ipsam naturam, substantiamquè divinam corpus vocare, non tale corpus cuius partes aliae maiores, aliae minores valeant vel debeant cogitari, etc. sed quià non est nihil, non est inanitas, non est corporis 〈◊〉 animae qualitas, sed vbiquè totus, & per 〈◊〉 spacia nulla partitus: In sua tamen natura & substantia 〈◊〉 permanet. Idem d. Genes. ad Lit. li. 10. cap. ultimo. Vide Tertul. c. Martion. li. 2. Name & dextram & occulos, & pedes Dei legimus, nec ideo tamen humanis 〈◊〉, quià de appellatione sociantur. Quanta erit diversitas divini & humani corporis sub eisdem nominibus 〈◊〉. Jd. c. Hermog. Cum ipsa substantia corpus sit rei cuiusquè. Id. d. Anima. c. 7. si non corpus. , to whom you refer us, expoundeth his Tenet more favourably, affirming, that he was no Heretic in this point, because he may be expounded, as speaking figuratively; and by Corpus, a body, he might understand a thing substantial, real, immutable, quia non est nihil, non est inanitas, non est qualitas, etc. he is not nothing, an inanity, a quality, or accident, but abideth firm and invariable in his nature. Neither yet affirmeth S. Augustine, either of himself when he was a Manichee, or of Tertullian, that they were lead into their error by reading the Scripture. And it is more probable, that the Manichees sucked their false opinion from the Gentiles, rather than from the letter of the Scriptures, because they wholly rejected the old Testament, in which principally is found the description of the Deity, by figures of things corporeal: neither regarded they Apostolical Scriptures, but coined a Gospel according to their own fancy b Prateol. Elench. Haer. li. 11. d. Manich. n. 15. Totum vetus Testamentum reijciebant. Neque 〈◊〉 recipiebant Apostolorum libros, sed sua 〈◊〉 singularia comminiscebantur, quae Christi Euangelium vocabant. . Jesuit. More, our Children, and ignorant people, are in the Catholic Church often and plentifully instructed against such errors, as by our Catechisms may appear; and particularly by Jesuits, who make a solemn vow, to keep their Institutes, specially about teaching the rudiments of Faith unto common and ignorant people. Hence it is, that in towns where they dwell, and villages about, on Sundays and holy days, besides their Sermons for people more intelligent, they teach without fail unto children, and men of ruder sort, the form of Christian Doctrine, and use all industry by giving rewards unto children, and by bestowing alms on poor people, to make them willing and diligent in this learning. In the English Church, what is done for the instruction of the ignorant in their rudiments of Faith by Ministers and Pastors, as I know not much, so will I say nothing, but only that the time they spend in the praises of sole Faith, and about the secrets of Predestination, and in long bitter invectives against our Doctrines misunderstood, if not purposely misrelated, might in my opinion more profitably be spent in declaring the Creed, and prime Principles of Christianity, in plain and catechistical manner. ANSWER. How plentiful your instruction of ignorant people at this present time is, I will not examine; but it is not long since some of the best learned of your part affirmed, That throughout the whole Christian state, there was so extreme sloth, concerning these things, that one should find many in all places, expressly knowing no more, concerning God and things Divine, than Pagans a Navar. Manual. Confess. c. 11. n. 6. pa. 165. In universa Repub. Christiana tanta est circa haec socordia, ut mulcos passim invenias, nihil magis in particulari, & explicitè de rebus hisce credere, quam Ethnicum quendam Philosophum, sola unius veri Dei naturali cognitione praeditum. . And Espenceus, upon the 2. Tim. 3. n. 17. pag. 118. saith b An verò benè ac divinitus educati edoctiue pueri, hodie iuxta scomma Propheticum, Esa. 65. Prope centenarij, hoc est Christiani vetuli & seniculi, qui non minus fidunt aut tribuunt Divis quam Deo: qui hunc quam illos minus placabilem, aut exorabilem putant? utinam mentiar, & nulli sunt huiusmodi. Novi certe veteranum & generosum equitem, qui de Spiritu Sancto quid 〈◊〉, ingenue confitebatur, ut apud lucam Act. 19 Ephesijs, id quod erat, nec unquam se, si ullus esset Spiritus Sanctus, audivisse. , Are children well and religiously educated? yea according to that Prophetical derision, Esay 65. Children of an hundred years, that is, aged and decrepit Christians, trust as much, and yield as much to Saints as to God, and think that God is less merciful, and harder to be entreated than Saints. I knew (saith this Author) an ancient and noble Knight, who being demanded, What he believed concerning the holy Ghost, confessed freely, like 〈◊〉 Ephesians, Acts 19 That he 〈◊〉 not whether there was any holy Ghost. Also the Catechisms of Ledesma, Bellarmine, etc. are extant, wherein few instructions are found, sufficient to prevent the former error, whereinto ignorant people may easily fall. You descend in the next place, to depress the English Church, accusing the Pastors thereof, of negligence, in teaching the Principles of Christian Faith, and spending their time in the praises of sole Faith, and about the secrets of Predestination, and making Inuectives against your Doctrine misunderstood. But you look upon us with an evil eye, and your Aspersions are envious. First, the Canons of our Church b Constit. & 〈◊〉. Eccles. can. 59 Every Parson, Vicar, or Curate upon cuery Sunday and Holy day, before Evening prayer, shall for half an hour, or more, examine and 〈◊〉 the youth and ignorant persons of his Parish in the 〈◊〉 Commandementi, the Articles of the Beleese, and in the Lord's prayer, etc. impose catechising, no less than preaching; and the negligence of delinquents in discharging this duty is punishable by Ecclesiastical censures. Secondly, the faith which our Ministers are to preach, according to the doctrine of the Church of England, is a lively and operative Faith, and this Faith alone, and no other, can justify and save the soul. Thirdly, it is not lawful for Preachers to spend their time in confuting Papists, unless they understand their Tenet, and are able to prove the same to be wicked and false. And although our Tenet concerning Predestination, be no other than what Saint Augustine and his scholars maintained against the Pelagians, and which hath been holden Orthodoxal by the best learned in the Church of Rome itself, yet our Church is most cautelous in preventing offences, which may ariseby undiscreet handling of this doctrine; and a most provident restraint is made among us in this behalf, by superior authority. I might here retort upon the Adversary, the abuses of his own Church, in all or some of these kinds; but this were to wander from the disputation, and to give occasion of further excursion, to one, Cui verbosa lingua est, cor vero obtenebratum, as S. Cyril c Cyril. c. jul. li. 〈◊〉. anciently spoke. Jesuit. Besides, it is easy for the Roman Church, to keep her children from believing that Images be Gods, or true living things; or that any divinity or divine virtue resides in them, as may be proved (convincingly in my judgement) by experience had of her power in this kind about a point more difficile. For what may seem more evident, than that a consecrated Host is bread, of which four senses, sight, feeling, smell, taste, give in evidence, as of bread, no less verily than any other, so far as they can discern? and yet so potent is the Word, and doctrine of the Church, grounded on general Counsels, declaring the word of God for Transubstantiation, as Catholics denying their senses, believe assuredly, that what seemeth bread, is not bread, but the true body of our Saviour, under the forms and accidents of bread. Now can any man with any show of the least probability in the world, think that it is difficile for this Church, to persuade her children that the Image of Christ is not a living thing, or bathe any Godhead or living divine power lodged in it, as plain Scriptures show, and general Catholic Counsels (particularly the Tridentine and Nicene) define; which doctrine neither reason nor Cone. Trid. Sess. 25. Cone. Nic. 2. Act. 7. sense can dislike? or shall the sole similitude of members correspondent unto humane living members, which Images have, so much prevail in Catholic minds, so to bow down their thoughts to base Idolatry, as to think a stock or stone to be God, and that the Church shall not be able by teaching, to erect them to a more high and divine apprehension, being able to make them firmly believe a consecrated Host is not really bread, against the judgement that they would otherwise frame, upon most notorious evidency of sense? ANSWER. This passage is wasted in magnifying the power which the Roman Church hath in preserving her adheres from the infection of superstition, in worshipping Images. The argument used by the Idolist to this purpose, is: The Roman Church, performeth that which is more difficile; to wit, it persuadeth people, contrary to the experience of all their senses, to believe, that consecrate bread is not bread, but the true body of Christ, under the forms and accidents of bread. Therefore it is able to persuade people, that the Images which they adore, are not very God, or that any divinity or divine virtue resides in them. I answer, that it is not more difficile, to persuade some people, to believe transubstantiation, than to rectify their judgement, in adoration of Images: for man's nature being of itself (through inbred corruption) prone to believe lies, and the members of Antichrist having a special curse of God upon them, 2. Thes. 2. 10, 11. no marvel if they credit false doctrine, although it be most absurd. But they which believe and obey their Masters, when they teach lies, do not always follow their directions, if they instruct them in truth. Neither are such people free from scandal, justly taken, if they conceive not images to be Gods, or endued with divine virtue residing in them, for without such imagination, they perform an unlawful worship, never instituted a Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 3. c. 9 Qui operatur aut veneratur, utile fignum divinitus institutum. , but always condemned by the Holy Ghost. And this alone without further abuses, is sufficient to condemn the doctrine and practice of the Roman Church. Jesuit. The Protestant Church on the other side, may seem to have no great vigour, by preachings to persuade common people against the error of the Anthropomorphits, seeing their principle is, That a world of Preachers is not to be believed against the evident Scripture. Yea that a common D. john White in his Way, pa. 59 ordinary man, by Scripture may oppose as great, and a greater Church, than is the whole Protestant. Which principle being laid, how will they convince people, that that God is a pure Spirit, whom the Scripture doth so perpetually set forth, as having humane members? I may conclude therefore, that their translating of Scripture into the vulgar languages, breeds more danger unto common people, than our making of Images. ANSWER. The jesuit is fallen upon a Paradox, affirming that there is more danger, for Protestants to be misled, by reading Scriptures translated, into the error of the Humaniformians, than the Papists to be seduced by images. And his reason is, because Protestant Ministers cannot by preaching the contrary doctrine, persuade people to desist from any error, which seems to them agreeable to any literal text of holy Scripture: for one of their own principles is, That a world of Preachers, is not to be believed against evident Scripture, etc. and he citeth Mr. john White in his Way, pag. 59 I perceive, it is impossible for Papists to deal sincerely. Mr. john White affirmeth not, that every private person, or that any company of people whatsoever, are to be credited upon the sole allegation of a text of Scripture, expounded as the outward letter soundeth: for we know, that sometimes the letter killeth, and Saint Augustine's rule a Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. li. 3. c. 10. Et iste omnino modus est, ut quicquid in sermone divino, neque ad morum 〈◊〉, neque ad fidei veritatem proprie referri potest, figuratum esse cognoscas. Ibid. c. 16. Si flagitium aut facinus iubere, aut utilitatem aut beneficentiam vetare, figurata est. Nisi manducaveritis inquit, carnem filij hominis & sanguinem biberitis, non habebitis vitam in vobis, facinus vel flagitium videtur iubere. Figura est ergo, praecipiens passioni Domini esse, communicandum, & suaviter atque utiliter recondendum in memoria, quod pro nobis caro eius crucifixa, & vulnerata sit. Id. d. 〈◊〉. ad lit. li. 8. c. 2. , concerning Scriptures exposition, is neither strange, nor unpractised by us: but Mr. john Whites doctrine is, That if four hundred Baalites, or a whole Council of Pharisees, or Errants, deliver untruths, one Micajah, one Stephen, one Athanasius, in whose mouth is fowd the word of Truth, although the persons seem never so private, must be preferred before them, which teach lies, or doctrine repugnant to holy Scripture b Chrys. d. Lazar. Hom. 4. Etiamsi mortuus reviuiscat etiamsi Angelus de coelo descendat maxime omnium credendum eft Scriptures. Et. Hom. d. expulsipsius. tom. 5. Habeo Scripturam Domini mei, manum 〈◊〉 teneo, illa 〈◊〉 cautio fatis tuta est, illa me securum reddit & intrepidum etiamsi orbis teriae commoveatur ego cautionem Domini mei teneo, lego manum eius ipsa mihi murus est inexpugnabilis. , truly expounded. Jesuit. But they will say the translation of Scripture into vulgar languages, is commanded in the Scripture, and the Apostles and Apostolical Church practised it. Whereas we cannot prove by Scripture, that the Apostles did warrant, or practise the setting up of Images. This they say with great confidence. But what substantial proof is of this their saying, I could never read or hear. The testimonies they bring in this behalf (Search the Scriptures: Let his word dwell plentifully among you, etc.) are insufficient joh. 5. v. 39 Colloss. 3. v. 16. to prove a direct and express precept or practice, of translating Scriptures into the vulgar tongue. ANSWER. We affirm with great confidence, both that the reading of holy Scripture by Lay people (which must needs imply Translation of them) is a Divine Ordinance, and that Image worship was neither warranted by the Apostles, nor practised by the Primative Church succeeding the Apostles. Neither do we allege only those Sentences of holy Scripture, john 5. 39 Collos. 3. 16. which the jesuit thinks himself able to elude by subtle distinctions, as the Arrians in times past eluded the Text of Saint john, Cap. 10.30. But we cite also the Precept of God given to the Church, before Christ his coming, and the perpetual practice of the godly, in the Old and New Testament, and the vehement exhortations of the Primative Fathers, exhorting Lay people to the reading and meditation of holy Scripture, and magnifying the fruit and benefit arising from thence. The Eunuch is commended for reading holy Scripture, Acts 8. 28. The Baereans are called Noble, by the holy Ghost, for searching the holy Scriptures, Acts 17. 11. He is called Blessed which readeth and heareth, Apoc. 1. 3. The Galathians read the Scripture, Gal. 4.21. The Ephesians, Cap. 3.4. The Collossians, Cap. 4. 16. The Thessalonians, 1. Thes. 5.27. The Fathers are so plentiful in this Argument, as I have elsewhere showed a Def. of my Brother. pag. 42, etc. , that it would astonish any man who hath read them b Clem. Alex. Strom. lib. 7. pag. 245. Orig. in Esa. Hom. 2. Chrys. d. Paradis. & Proem. ad Rom. & sup. Gen. Hom. 6. 8. 10. 12. 14. 21. 29. 35. 59 & d. verb. Esa. Hom. 2. & sup. Rom. Hom. 30. & sup. Matth. Hom. 2. & 48. & d. Lazaro. Hom. 3. & 4, etc. Hieron. Epist. 7. & 9 & 10. & 14. & 29. & 30. & sup. Ezech. 45. Ambros. Serm. 35. August. Epist. 120. c. 37. & d. Temp. Serm. 55. & 56. Cyril. c. Julian. lib. 7. Theoderit. d. cur. Graec. Affect. 〈◊〉. 5. & 8. Jsiodor. Pelusiot. lib. 1. Epist. 24. Isiodor. Hispal. d. sum. bon. lib. 1. cap. 18. Gregor. Mag. sup. Euang. Hom. 15. & sup. Ezech. li. 2. Hom. 15. & Dial. lib. 4. c. 14. & lib. 4. Epist. 40. Ephrem. d. pat. & consume. secul. Damasc. Orthod. fid. lib. 4. cap. 18. Beda lib. 3. in Esdr. cap. 18. Theophil. in Eph. 6. Bernard. Serm. 55. tract. Modus bene vivendi adsorores. , to behold such impudency in Papists, as to deny this Practice to have been Primative and Catholic. But necessity hath no Law, for if the Scriptures may be suffered to speak, Papistry must fall, like Dagon before the Ark. Jesuit. Catholics on the contrary side, though they boast not of Scriptures, (as knowing that nothing is so clearly set down in it, but malapert error may contend against it with some show of probability) yet have Scriptures much more clear and express than any that Protestants can bring for themselves, even about the use of the Image of Christ crucified in the first Apostolical Church: S. Paul to the Galathians saith, O ye foolish Galathians, who hath Galath. 3. 〈◊〉. 1. bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Christ jesus is lively set forth crucified among you. The Greek word corresponding to the English, lively set forth, is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifies, to paint forth a thing; insomuch as even Beza, jesus Christus depictus crucifixus, jesus Christ painted, crucified before your eyes: so that we have in plain and express terms, that Christ was Painted crucified, in the Apostolical Churches, which the Apostle doth allow; thence drawing an Argument to prove the Galathians were senseless and sottish, that keeping in their sight Christ painted, as Crucified, they would be saved by the Law, and not by the merits of his Cross: for it was madness and folly to paint Christ, and honour him as crucified, and not to think that by his death upon the Cross, he redeemed the world. ANSWER. There is reason, why Romists (which style themselves Catholics, but are not a Chrys. ex. var. in Math. Hom. 11. Nomen tuum christianum sonat sed facta Antichristum monstrant. August. sup. Math. q. 11. Boni Catholici sunt qui fidem integram sequuntur & bonos mores. Id. d. ver. Relig. c. 5. Catholici vel Orthodoxi nominantur, id est integritatis custodes & recta sectantes. ) should be sparing in boasting of Scripture: but the reason assigned by the Adversary, which is, that Scriptures may be perverted by Errants, is unsufficient; for it is common to Tradition, and to Histories, and monuments of antiquity, to be perverted and abused, and the same happeneth not by the kind and nature of the Scripture b Aug. d. Trin. l. 1. c. 3. Nec ipsis Sanctis divinorum librorum, authoritatibus ullo modo quisquam recte tribuerit, tam multos & varios errores haereticorum, cum omnes ex eisdem Scripturis falsas atque fallaces opiniones suas conentur defendere. , but accidentally, through the malice and subtlety of man, perverting the right ways of the Lord. And there is sufficient matter in the sacred Scripture, to demonstrate verity, and to convince Errants, when they pervert the right sense c Gregor. Mor. l. 18. c. 8. Cum superbientes haereticos, & Sacrae Scripturae sententias deferentes, eisdem verbis atque sententijs quas proferunt vincimus, quasi 〈◊〉 Goliam, suo gladio detruncamus. . And whereas you affirm in the next place, that Romists have Scriptures more clear and express, than any that Protestants can bring for themselves, even about the use of the Image of Christ. First, If this were true, it proveth not the question, That Images ought to be worshipped, but only that they may be used, for History, Ornament, and Signification, as the Cherubins, and other Pictures of the Temple, in the old Law; for Use being a general, and Worship a special, you cannot conclude affirmatively from the former to the latter d A genere ad speciem non sequitur affirmative. . Secondly, You depart from your own received Principles, when you endeavour to prove Image worship by Scripture: for the same (according to your doctrine) is a divine Tradition e Azor. Instit. Mor. p. 1. li. 8. c. 4. , and such a Tradition (according to learned Bannes) as is neither expressly nor infoldedly taught in holy Scripture f Bannes in Tho. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pa. 170. Orationes esse ad Sanctos faciendas, venerandas esse eorum Imagines, etc. Neque etiam impress, neque involute, sacrae literae docent. . Wherefore then do you attempt to prove Iconolatrie out of Scripture, which being in your Tenet a Tradition, is Doctrina tantum non Scripta g Bellarm. d. verb. Dei l. 4. c. 2. : a Doctrine altogether unwritten. It is a vain thing to promise to fetch Treasure out of a Chest, or water out of a flint stone, in which a man himself confesseth there is none. Thirdly, St. Paul his Text, Galath. 3.1. Nullis machinis, can by no ingens or devices be wrested to your Tenet. All Expositors ancient and modern, which have Commented upon this Text, are against you, and you have neither the letter nor matter of the Text favourable to you. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, upon which you insist, is translated by your own Interpreters a Rhem. Gal. 3. 1. vet. Transl. Proscribed, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, jud. v. 4. Prescribed; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Rom. 15.4. Have been written; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Eph. 3. 3. I have written before. And whereas you fly to Beza, translating 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Depictus, Painted before, he telleth you in his Annotation b Bez. 〈◊〉. Gal. 3.1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est, quibus ita perspicue fuit exhibitus Christus ut quasi oculis vestris representata fuerit viva ipsius Imago, ac si apud vos ipsos esset crucifixus. , that he vnderstandeth not artificial, but Theological depainting, not external but spiritual; to wit, by the evident and powerful Preaching, and Doctrine of Saint Paul, Christ jesus was so lively revealed and set forth to the understanding of the Galathians, as if they had indeed beheld him crucified before them. And in this manner Chrysostome c Chrys. sup. 3. ca Gal. Atqui non apud Gallatas sed Hierosolymis crucifixus fuerit, quomodo igitur dicit in vobis? ut fidei vim ostenderet, quae possit & procul dissita cernere. Nec dixit crucifixus est sed prescriptus est crucifixus, indicans quod oculis fidei quidem exactius perspicerent, quam nonnulli qui presentes ad fuerant 〈◊〉 quae gerebantur conspexerant. Illorum enim qui spectarant complures nullum inde fructum retulerunt, hij vero quae oculis ipsis non viderant, tamen per fidem evidentius viderant. , Theophilact d 〈◊〉. ib. prescriptus est igitur exact, hoc est viva veluti Imagine expressa depictus est per predicationem, vos vero credentes predicationi, 〈◊〉 presentem ipsum conspexistis. , and Oecumenius e Oecumen. ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. expound Saint Paul, and with them agree your own Doctors, Aquinas f Aquin. ib. proscriptio Christi qui damnatus est in mortem, adeo vobis manifesta 〈◊〉, ac si ante oculos vestros fuisset. Vasq. Paraph. in Gal. 3. O stulti Galatae, quis vos aspectu malefico tanquam pueros in fide recens natos laesit, & veluti incantationibus delusit, ut vos (quibus per meam predicationem Euangelij ita expositum est Christi Euangelium & ipsius Christi. Passio ut certius sitis eum contemplate, quam quiipsum oculis tantum corporis viderunt) veritatem quam semel estis edocti non retineatis. , Adam Sasbot g Adam. Sasb. ib. Vos inquam ante quorum oculos Iesus Christus prescriptus est, vel ut alij legant proscriptus, id est, quibus per meam predicationem, sic est depictus Christus, & omnibus ob oculos expositus, tanquam inter vos esset crucifixus, ut multo certius illum fidei oculis sitis contemplati, quam qui illum coram viderunt, clavis cruci affigi. , Estius, Cornelius, justinianus, Vasques, Salmeron, etc. There is no small difference between vocal and spiritual depainting; and between material or artificial, between painting upon minds, and painting upon material Tables, between intellectual beholding Christ jesus crucified, in the Story of the Gospel, or in the Sacrament; and in a visible Statue, or painted Table. And therefore from St. Paul's affirming the former, the jesuits latter followeth not. Jesuit. I know that some Catholics expound this place, That Christ was painted out unto the Galathians Metaphorically by preaching, which I do not deny, but this doth not repugn with the other sense, that he was also materially painted as crucified, the which being more conform to the native and proper signification of the words, is not to be forsaken but upon evident absurdity, especially, seeing it hath more connexion with the drift of the Apostles discourse, which is, to prove the Galathians senseless in forsaking Christ crucified painted before their eyes; for to forsake Christ crucified, set forth by preaching, as the Saviour of the world, though it be impious, yet is not senseless, yea rather Salvation by the Cross of Christ, did seem Praedicamus jesum Christum judeis scandalum gentibus stultitiam, 1. Cor. 1.30. folly unto the Gentiles. But to have Christ painted as crucified before men's eyes, honouring him by Christian devotion, in regard of his crucifixion and death, and not to expect Salvation by him, is sottish and senseless. And of this material painting of Christ, Athanasius expoundeth this Athanas. ser. de. sanctis Patriarch. & Prophet. apud Turrian. lib. 4. de Dogmat. Charact. verbi Dei. place, whom Turrianus citeth: wherefore I may justly say, that we have more clear and express Scripture, for the use of Images, than have Protestants for their vulgar Translations. ANSWER. First, yield us but one Father, or learned Papist, who in their Commentaries a Harding, Gretsar. Cabrera. etc. In disputation press this place, but no learned Papist that I have seen in their Commentary expound this place literally, according to your sense. Secondly, It is neither comformable to the signification of the words, for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth, to be written afore, and not to be pictured before; neither hath it any necessary connexion with the drift of the Apostles discourse, etc. For the Galathians being Christians converted from infidelity, and not Heathens or jews (to whom the Cross, or death of Christ upon the Cross, seemed foolishness, 1. Cor. 1.18.) were more senseless, that is to say, more void of right judgement, by forsaking Christ jesus crucified, (which was by the preaching of the holy Ghost, and Sacraments ordained by God, evidently revealed to their conscience, and received by Faith) than if they had forsaken him painted only in a Crucifix; for, to forsake a thing written in the heart, and believed upon the Doctrine, and by the power of the holy Ghost, is far more unreasonable than to forsake that which is exhibited by a dead and dumb picture. Thirdly, your counterfeit Athanasius is a child of darkness, not placed at all in the works of Athanasius by yourselves: read the several impressions of this Author, at Rome, Paris, Basill, etc. Anno 1520, 1555, 1564, 1572, 1581., 1582, 1598., 1608, and there is no such work of his to be found: and therefore Harding, Turrian, Gretsar, and yourself abuse the world in alleading such bastardly stuff. Jesuit. And therefore the danger of ignorant people's erring by Jmages, is without reason so much insisted upon by Protestants, their English Translation being (as I have showed) a more dangerous block for fools to stumble at, and so fall into damnable errors. If they presume that by diligent instruction they may and would have us think, that they do preserve their people from that error, why should they not think that the Roman Church being so potent with her children, can keep them from the foolish error, of attributing life and divinity unto dead and dumb Images? and that she will so do, being so strictly commanded by the Council of Trent, to use her greatest diligence Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. Diligentèr doceant Episcopi, etc. in this point, that ignorant people fall not into error by any Image, which otherwise have many profits and utilities. ANSWER. It is possible for ignorant people, notwithstanding admonitions, to worship Images, not thinking actually of the Prototype a Petigian Sum. Theol. d. 9 q. 1. ar. 3. Possumus siftere in adoratione Imaginis solius, absquè hoc, quod adoremus rem representatam. : and in this case their worship is terminate in the very Image. But it is needless for us to insist upon the matter of abuse, for if the thing itself, to wit, adoration of Images, be unlawful, than it is in vain to deliver precepts and cautions to moderate excess in the performance of it. But that adoration of Images is unlawful, it hath formerly been proved by the words of the moral Law, and the perpetual practice of the jewish Church b Vasq. d. Ador. li. 2. disp. 4. c. 2. n. 66. , and of the Primitive Church for certain ages, which neither worshipped Images, and which rejected in a manner all use of them in religion a Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nobis est aperte vetitum artem fallacem exercere. Non facies enim inquit Propheta, Exod 20. 〈◊〉 rei similitudinem, etc. juslin. Mart. Dial. cum. Tryph. Anon Deus is erat, qui per Mosen sanxit, ne qua omninò 〈◊〉, vel Imago vel similitudo, etc. Vide Euseb. Eccles. Hist. li. 7. ca 17. . Jesuit. About which, I will not enlarge myself, but only mention some of them. The first is an easy and compendious way of instruction, in which respect they are termed by S. Gregory, The Books of the unlearned: and (as another Greg. li. 7. Ep. 109. Nissen. Orat. in Theod. Gregory saith) The silent Pictures speaks in the wall, and profiteth very much. ANSWER. This reason, whether it be true or false, serveth only to commend the Historical use of Images; and yet some learned Papists reject this kind of teaching, by Images and Pictures: Among which, Durand b Dur. Rational. Diu. lib. 1. ca 3. n. 4. saith, Ei autem quod dictum est, quod Imagines sunt Laicorum literae, obuiat illud Euangelij, habent Mosen & Prophetas, The sentence of the Gospel (They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them) is repugnant to that which is spoken by some, Images are laymen's Books. Jesuit. The second, is to increase in men (that keep and honour them) the love of God, and his Saints; which effect S. Chrisostome experienced, as he testifieth, saying, I loloved a Picture of melted wax full of Piety. And S. Chryso. Orat. Quod novi & veteris Testamenti unus sit Mediator. Greg. li. 7. Ep. 53. Gregory the Great saith, They inflame men that behold them in the love of their Lord and Saviour. The third is, to move and incite men to the imitation of the virtues of Christ, and his Saints: which utility S. Basill doth declare, and highly esteem in his Sermon of the forty Martyrs. Basil. Serm. in 40 Martyr. And examples might be brought of men reclaimed by sight of godly Images, even in the 〈◊〉 of sinful affection. The fourth is, to stay our thoughts upon Christ, and his passion, that our imaginations in prayer may not so easily wander; which use of Images, Catholics in their devotions do often experience. Finally, that in his Image we may honour Christ, the honour of the Image redounding to the original: and who crowneth the King's Image, honoureth the King whose Image it is, saith S. Ambrose. In which kind Ambros. Serm. 10. in Psalm. 119. memorable is the devotion of our victorious and religious King Canutus, who took the Diadem that he used to wear on his own head, and there with crowned an Image of Christ crucified, which in his days was devoutly reserved in the Church of S. Peter and S. Paul in Winchester; and afterwards would never have any crown come on his head, out of humble reverence to his crucified Lord. ANSWER. It is again to little purpose, to examine the places of the Fathers, here produced, concerning the utility which may follow upon the visible aspect of Pictures & Images, for all these testimonies serve only to commend Historical use, but they prove not Adoration. Also the utility of Images, mentioned by them, is spoken only according to their humane opinion. But that Images, by divine institution, have such utility, or that God Almighty hath promised in his word any such effects and blessings unto them, is not affirmed by the Fathers, neither can it be warranted by divine revelation. S. Ambrose Serm. 10. in Psalm. 118. a Ambr. 〈◊〉. 10. Psal. 118. Prevosum est 〈◊〉 virum 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 eum secundum 〈◊〉 Dei. Si vide imus in paupere illum ad cuius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est, etc. Qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Imperatoris, utiquè illum honorat cuius Imaginem coronat, etc. treateth of the lively Images of God, to wit, just persons, poor afflicted people, the members of Christ; these Images he exhorteth us to honour, illustrating his Doctrine by an humane similitude, which is, He that crowneth the Image of the Emperor, honoureth him whose Image he crowneth, etc. Then he applieth the former similitude, saying b Vides quià intèr multas Christi Imagines ambulamus? Caveamus nè coronam Imagini detrahere videamur, quam 〈◊〉 què Christus imposuit. Caveamus neal quid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iis quibus 〈◊〉 debemus. Sed quod peius est, non solum non honestamus pauperes, 〈◊〉 etiàm 〈◊〉, destruimus, & persequimur, & ignoramus quas Dei Imagini, congeramus iniurias, cum factos ad Imaginem Dei, putamus esse laedendos. Qui enim irridet pauperem, 〈◊〉 eum, qui secit illum. Sed aderit ille 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 & non de distis mihi manducare etc. , By honouring the lively Images of Christ, we worship Christ himself. But speaking of dead Statues and Pictures, he addeth, Gentiles lignum adorant, quia Dei Imaginem putant, sed invisibilis Dei Imago, non in 〈◊〉 est quod videtur, Gentiles adore wood, thinking it the Image of God, but the Image of the invisible God, is in that which is invisible, and not in it which is seen. As for your story of Canutus (the first Danish king reigning in England) wherewith you close up your question of Images, you name no Author, that so we might have examined the quality of Canutus his action; and if the same happened according to your report, yet it is not ancient, because it was a thousand years and more after Christ a Anno Dom. 1017. he began to reign. : Neither is the consequence necessary, that because he placed his Crown upon an Image of the Crucifix, therefore he worshipped the Image b Ambros. Orat. Funebr. d. obit. Theodos. Inuenit ergo titulum, regem adoravit, non lignum utique, quia hic gentilis est error, & vanitas impiorum: sed adoravit illum, qui pependit in ligno, Scriptus in ligno. : for jacob poured oil upon the top of a Pillar, Gen. 28.18. yet his Oblation was made only to the Deity, and not to the Pillar. Lastly, Let it be observed, that our Adversary hath manifested wondrous weakness, in this Romish Article concerning worship of Images; for he hath not throughout his whole disputation, produced one plain Text of holy Scripture, or one clear sentence of Antiquity, proving the necessity or lawfulness of Iconolatrie. Wherefore I conclude, that this doctrine is destitute of all divine authority, written or unwritten; and consequently, that they are impostors, which impose the same as a necessary duty upon the Church of Christ. The Second and Third Point. PRAYINGS, AND OFFERING OBLATIONS TO THE B. Virgin MARY. WORSHIPPING, AND Invocation of Saints, and Angels. Jesuit. I Have joined these two Controversies together, hoping I might do it with your Majesty's good liking, the main difficulty of them both, being the same, to wit, Worship and Invocation of Angels, and Saints. For I am most fully persuaded, that if your Majesty did allow Invocation of any Opera Regia Respons. ad Ep. Card. Peron. pag. 402. Saint, you would never deny that Devotion unto the Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, whom you honour and reverence above the rest; though perchance you may dislike some particular forms of our Prayers, that seem to give her Titles above that which is due to a Creature: about which, I shall in the end of this Discourse endeavour to give your Majesty satisfaction. ANSWER. ALthough it were granted, that some kind or manner of Petition, or Compellation, made by the Church Militant to the blessed Saints, and Angels, were lawful; and that we might request them to be Comprecants a Alex. Hal. 4. q. 26. m. 2. Ar. 3. Solus Deus est simpliciter 〈◊〉, etc. Sancti non simpliciter, etc. Magis tenent se ex parte Orantium, quasi adiwantes, quam illius qui oratur. Estius, sup. Eph. 3. v. 12. Cath. sanctos invocando, tantum eos adhibent ut comprecatores. Bucer. sup. Rom. 8. Intercessio quam pridem Divis tribuunt Ecclesiae, non potest ex 〈◊〉 statui aliud esse, quam perpetua illorum vota, de nostra Redemptione consummanda. Quibus fidere ex se impium: quaerere ea in certum est: affectus tamen salutis qui eo 〈◊〉 seize attollit, ut Divorum quoque intercessionem in Christo, non prae Christo quaerit, non excutiens quam certum sit quò feratur, damnari non debet. Et hoc reverentiae detulisse veterum obseruationi hac in re, quae scilicet usu, nullo autem Oraculo Scripturae inolevit satis fuerit. , and to make intercession to God in our behalf: yet the Invocation of them, according to the practice of the Roman Church, wherein they pray first of all to Saints, and in the last place, to Christ; and their excessive worship, by Vows, Oaths, Offertures, conjoining their satisfactions with Christ's b Bellarm. d. Indulg. lib. 1. c. 4. Non erit absurdum si sancti viri Redemptores nostri, aliquo modo, id est, secundum aliquid non simpliciter & largo modo, & none in rigore verborum esse dicantur. Biel, in Can. Miss. Lect. 30. K. Non frustra imploramus Sanctos quos non ut Creatores gratiae sive Beatificatores invocamus: sed ut mediatores, quorum meritis & intuitu, nobis Deus confert, quod ex nostris accipere sumus minus digni. , and confidence in their merits, and adoring their Images, cannot be justified: for this manner of Devotion hath no foundation express or enfolded in Divine Revelation, and the Primitive Church did not appoint or practise the same: And it encroacheth so nearly upon the Office of Christ, our sole Redcemer, Mediator, and Advocate, that without express and manifest Precept, or approbation of the Holy Ghost c Epiphan. Haeres. 59 Graecè Latinae, 79. Etenim qua nam in Scripturae parte continetur? Quis unquam Prophetarum, etc. Ambros. d. Sacram. Incarn. c. 9 Quod Legi non nego imo libenter usurpo, quod non Legi usurpare non debeo. Athanas. d. Incarn. Christi. Neque loqui neque audire sustinemus, quod extraneum sit ab istis (Scriptures.) Cyril. Hierosol. Chat. 4. Mihi ne credas loquenti, nisi eorum quae praedicantur demonstrationes è Divinis 〈◊〉 acceperis. , we may not esteem it lawful. The Doctrine of our Church, concerning Invocation and Adoration of the blessed Trinity; our access to God, by Supplications and Prayers, in the name of jesus Christ; our dependence upon the sole Merits and Satisfactions of our all-sufficient Redeemer, and Saviour, have Precept, Example, Promise, Reasons, and Warranty, delivered in the express, manifest, and indubitate Word of God. joh. 14. 13, 14. & cap. 16.24. 1. joh. 2.1. Heb. 4. 15, 16. 1. Pet. 2.5. Heb. 13.15. Also we have certainty of Faith, That Christ jesus, our Intercessor and Advocate, hath distinct and perfect knowledge, particular and general of our quality, state and actions. Heb. 4.13. His office is, to make intercession for us, Rom. 8.34. Heb. 7. 25. He inviteth us most lovingly to come unto him, Math. 11.28. Our heavenly Father always heareth him, john 11. 42. His compassion towards us exceedeth the piety of any creature, joh. 10. 11. & 15. 13. Heb. 4, 15. a August. Confess. lib. 10. ca 43. Quomodo nos amasti pater bone, qui 〈◊〉 tuo unico non pepercisti, sed pro nobis impijs tradidisti 〈◊〉? quomodo nos amasti, pro quibus ille 〈◊〉 non rapinam arbitratus est esse equalis tibi, factus est subditus, usque ad mortem crucis: unus ille in mortuis liber, potestatem habens ponendi animam suam, & potestatem habens iterum sumendi 〈◊〉 pro nobis tibi victor & victima, & ideo victor quia victima: pro nobis tibi sacerdos & 〈◊〉, & ideo sacerdos quia sacrificium, faciens tibi nos de seruis filios, de te nascendo, nobis seruiendo, merito mihi spcs valida in illo est, quod sanabis omnes languores meos, per eum qui scdet ad dexteram tuam, & te interpellat pro nobis alioquin desperarem. We may more safely, and with greater comfort, speak to our Saviour, than to any Saint or Angel c Aug. li. 2. d. visit. Infir. Tutius & iucundius loquor ad meum jesum, quam ad aliquem sanctorum Spirituum. ; the holy Spirit helpeth our infirmities, and teacheth us to make intercession according to the will of God d Aug. epist. 105. & sup. Psal. 118. Conc. 14. Greg. Mor. lib. 2. c. 30. . Rom. 8.26, 27. Therefore our praying to God in the name of Christ only, our supplication to the Father, to accept us for the sole merits of our Saviour, is a most safe and faithful devotion, and our assurance is grounded upon the word of faith, and having such promises, we cannot be deceived in our hope, 2. Tim. 2.13. Tit. 1. 2. But on the contrary, Romish invocation, directed to Saints, Angels, and the blessed Virgin; their oblation of the merits and satisfaction of creatures, with many other branches of their holy seeming devotion, have neither precept, example, or promise in the large book of God, (notwithstanding the same book is most abundant in teaching the duty and form of prayer.) And some of our best learned Adversaries confess, that the doctrine of invocation of Saints, is neither expressly, nor infoldedly taught in holy Scripture b Dom. Bannes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pag. 170. Orationes ad sanctos esse faciendas, venerandas esse Imagines, neque etiam expressè, neque involutè Scripturae 〈◊〉. . Therefore his most excellent Majesty, our Sovereign Lord and King, to whose sacred person the jesuit directeth his former speech, may with unspeakable joy and comfort, glory that he is in this article, a defender and propugner of that faith which is taught from heaven by the holy Ghost: and Papistical invocation is no plant growing in the Paradise c 〈◊〉. c. Haer. li. 5. c. 20. Ab omni ligno paradisi escas manducabis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est ab 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dominica manducate. of holy Scripture, by their own confession, neither have they any means infallible, to ascertain themselves and others, that the same is a plant which the heavenly Father hath planted, or that their devotion in this kind is necessary, profitable, or acceptable to God d Hilar. d. Trin. li. 8. Quae dicimus nisi ab 〈◊〉 discimus stulte dicimus. . Jesuit. In which question I will suppose without large and particular proof (being able to prove it by testimonies undeniable, if need be) That worship and invocation of Saints, hath been generally received in the whole Christian Church, at least ever since the days of Constantine. A thing so clear, that Chemnitius doth write in this sort; Chemnitius Exam. Conc. Trid. part. 2. pa. 10 1. Nazian. Or. 18. in S. Cypr. Nissen. Or in S. Theodor. Basil. 〈◊〉. 20. in 40. Mart. Theod. de Graecorum. Affect. l. 8. Ambr. li. de viduis. Hierom. in vit. Hilar. & advet. Vigilant. c. 3. Aug. li. 6. 〈◊〉. Donat. c. 1. Seravia in Defenstract. de divers. pa. 389. Fulke in his Answ. to a counterfeit. pa. 46. Magdeburg. Centur. 3. c. 4. Col. 83. Iren. li. 5. advers. Haer. Most of the Fathers, as Nazianzen, Nissen, Basill, Theodoret, Ambrose, Hierome, Austin, etc. did not dispute, but avouch the souls of Martyrs and Saints to hear the petitions of those that prayed, they went often to the monuments of Martyrs, and invocated Martyrs by name. And seeing these Fathers praised and practised this custom, as received from Ancestors, and as a matter of faith, condemning the contradictors thereof as Novelists and Heretics, to wit, Aerius and Vigilantius, as is confessed: I may further conclude, that that custom did not then begin, but was come down from the Apostles; which is confirmed by testimony of the Magdeburgians, in acknowledging that in the Father's next 〈◊〉 the Apostolical times, were found, Non obscura vestigia Inuocationis Sanctorum, as appeareth by the testimony of Saint Ireneus, terming the 〈◊〉 Virgin the advocate of Eve, that is of her children. ANSWER. a Fisher. Being able to prove it by testimonies, undeniable. You presuppose that, which (notwithstanding your facing) you will never be able to prove, to wit, That innocation of Saints, (according to the doctrine and practice of the late Roman Church) hath been generally, and universally received as an article of faith or necessary duty, ever since the days of Constantine: neither hath Chemnitius whom you allege, affirmed this, but rather said the contrary. First, he saith b Chemitius Exam. Trid. Conc pa. 3. pa. 195. In primitiva Ecclesia, 〈◊〉 ad annos 〈◊〉 post Christum natum, 〈◊〉 de 〈◊〉 patrocinijs, 〈◊〉, meritis open, auxilio, & invocatione Sanctorum in coelis, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fuit: & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fuit sicut oftendimus, ratio venerationis Sanctorum, quam quae postea invecta est. , That in the Primitive Church, until two hundred years after Christ, this doctrine and practice was utterly unknown. Secondly, he affirmeth, that about the year 240. some seeds of this doctrine began to be sown in the Church by Origen c Idem. Illis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & ab illo authore circa annum Domini 240. Spargi caeperunt, Seminaria invocationis Sanctorum. . Thirdly, He saith expressly a Jbid. per annos à nato Christo 350. & amplius, Ecclesia Inuocationem Sanctorum in publica praxi Ignoravit. , that for three hundred and fifty years and upward, the public practice of Invocation was unknown in the Church: And then about the year 370, it began to be spoken of in public assemblies, by Basil, Nyssen, and Nazianzen, upon occasion of their panegyrical Orations b Ibid. Tandem circa annum Domini 370. per Basilium, 〈◊〉, & Nazianzenum, in publicos Ecclesiae conventus occasione Orationum Panegyricarum invehi caepit eodem tempore cum ab ijsdem authoribus Monachatus ex AEgypto & Syria in Graeciam introduceretur. . h Ibid. Atque hactenus Inuocatio Sanctorum, in privatis preculis regnavit, 〈◊〉 vero hic Gregorius apud Latino's in public as Ecclesiae supplicationes quas Graeco vocabulo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocant, primus intrusisse scribitur. Apud Graecos enim Petrus Gnapheus idem antea tentavit sicut supra notavimus. Fourthly, He addeth, c Ibid. Considerandum autem est in Historia illorum temporum quod non ubique & ab omnibus, pro certis, veris, & Catholicis dogmatibus receptae fuerint Panegyricae illo declamationes. That notwithstanding these Orations, it was not generally and universally received in those times, but both doubted of, and also reproved and condemned by some d Ibid. Quia vero Catholicum hoc est sicut Lyrinensis non male definite quod semper, quod ubique & ab omnibus fidelibus, ex Scriptura constanter receptum fuit, addenda est & haec obseruatio, quod non dubitatum tantum de Inuocatione Sanctorum fuit istis temporibus, cum ex privatis vulgi & muliercularum devotionibus in Ecclesiam inciperet introduci: sed diserte & quidem magno zelo reprehensa, & in Catalogum haereseon relata fuit ab Epiphanio, quiijsdem firme temporibus vixit. : and about the 400. year, Saint Chrysostome interposed, and laboured to reduce people to the ancient form of Invocation e Ibid. Cumque illis temporibus, 〈◊〉 Sanctorum quidam assererent, quidam reprehenderent, quidam vero de ea dubitarent, non inutilis erit obseruatio quomodo Chrysostomus suam sententiam inter posuerit. . And proceeding in his Historical Narration, he showeth out of Nicephorus, lib. 15. cap. 28. that Petrus Gnapheus f Ibid. Et memorabile est, ac ad perpetuam rei memoriam dignum obseruatione, quod Petrus 〈◊〉, qui in quinta universali Synodo, ut Haereticus damnatus fuit, primus Author & inventor fuit miscendae Inuocationis Sanctorum, inter publicas Ecclesiae preces. Nicephorus l. 15. c. 28. Et ut in omni praecatione omni, Dei genetrix nominaretur, & divinum nomen eius invocaretur. , Anno 470 (condemned by the first universal Synod, of Heresy) was the first Author among the Grecians, of mixing intercessions to the Virgin Marie with divine Prayers. He affirmeth also, that in Saint Augustine's days g Ibid. pa. 212. , Invocation of Saints was not used in the common Service of the West Church. And descending to the 600. years, he saith, Invocation of Saints among the Latins, was not brought into the public Service and Litanies of the Church, until the days of Pope Gregory the first. Lastly, the form and manner of Saintly Invocation, in the 600 year, differed extremely from that which was used by Papals in latter times: and this is confirmed by Chemnitius i Ib. From the pag. 145. unto pag. 173. O Francisce lux solaris, 〈◊〉 singularis iam cum Christo gloriaris, in choro caelestium. Tu sis nobis vitae via, tu pro nobis semper pia. Prode Christo stygmata, etc. Item. Salue imperatrix gloriosissima peccatricis animae meae spes tutissima Deigenetrix Virgo Maria. Tu post Deum praecipuum & maximum es refugium & gaudium. Item. O Sancta Maria, & omnes sancti & electi Dei, nunc & in hora mortis meae, mihi misero succurite, & Dominum Deum nostrum, vestris meritis & precibus mihi propicium facite. Item. Sancta Maria, perpetua Virgo virginum, matter misericordiae, matter gratiae, spes omnium desolatorum, consolatrix omnium desperantium: O miseratrix miserorum, dulcis consolatio afflictorum, ac matter misericordiarum, desolatorum pijssima consolatrix, & in omni necessitate pupillorum promota nutrix: Exaudi praeces meas, & quia in diversis malis & angustijs, propter peccata mea positus sum, 〈◊〉 ad quem fugiam, nisi ad te Dominam meam, etc. , setting down verbatim, many Collects and forms of devotion, used in latter days, which were anciently unheard of. Secondly, The Fathers which you cite in your Margin, to prove the Doctrine of Invocation of Saints and Martyrs, to have been a matter of faith, from the days of Constantine, are Gregory Nyssen, St. Basil, Theodorit, St. Ambrose, St. Hierom, and St. Augustine: but having perused the places, I find not that these Fathers either delivered this Doctrine, as matter of Catholic Faith, or affirm the Practice thereof to have been necessary and universal; or that they spoke of such Worship and Invocation of Saints, as is practised in the service of your Church. But as places may be noted in some Fathers, touching invocation of Saints deceased; or which argue, that they requested Saints to assist them with their Prayers, at least in general, and so far forth as they had knowledge of their necessities: So likewise other Sentences are found in their writings, maintaining the sole Invocation of God by Christ, and condemning Invocation of Angels and Saints deceased, according to the manner now used in the Roman Church. Theoderit upon the Colossians a Theod. sup. Col. 2. Synodus quae convenit Laodiceae, quae est Phrygiae metropolis, lege prohibuit, ne precarentur Angelos: & in hodiernum usque diem, licet videre apud illos, & eorum finitimos, oratoria sancti Michaelis. Illi ergo hoc consulebant utique humilitate utentes, dicentes, universorum Deum, nec cerni, nec comprehendi, nec ad 〈◊〉 posse perveniri & oportere per Angelos divinam sibi benevolentiam conciliare. , cap. 2. condemneth worshipping and Invocation of Angels. St. Ambrose saith, b Ambr. d. obit. Theodos. Id. d. Interpellat. l. 3. c. 12. Tu portio mea es, abundas mihi ad omnia, nihil quaesivi aliunde, nisi ut te partem haberem nulli me caelesti ut Gentiles, subdidi Creaturae. Hieron. in. Proverb. cap. 2. Tu solus Dominus invocandus es, etc. Thou Lord only art to be invocated. St. Hierom, Nullum invocare, id est, in nos orando vocare nisi Deum debemus: We ought to invocate, that is, by Prayer to call into us none but God. And in another place, c Hier. ad Heliodor. Ep. 3. c. 1. Quicquid dixero quia ille non audit mutum videtur. Ib. c. 10. Foelix Nepotianus qui haec non videt haec non audit. Whatsoever I shall utter seemeth dumb, because he (Nepotian) being defunct, heareth me not. St. Augustine, Non sit nobis Religio cultus hominum mortuorum: Let not the worship of persons defunct be our Religion. Saint Athanasius, d Athanas. c. Arrian. Orat. 4. Origen. c. Celsum. l. 8. p. 523. Solus adorandus est Deus optimus maximus: Soli praeces offerendae unigenito Dei verbo, primogenito craturae totius: Qui ut Pontifex eas ad Deum suum, & nostrum perferat, & Patrem suum, atque omnium iuxta verbum eius viventium. Nunguam quispiam precaretur aliquid accipere a Patre & Angelis, vel ab ullis rebus creatis: No man would ever pray to receive any 〈◊〉 from the Father, and from the Angels, or from any other creature. Thirdly, That which the jesuit affirmeth concerning Aerius and Vigilantius, is false: for neither of these is ranked among Heretics, by Philastrius, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, or by any of the ancient Fathers, because they denied Invocation of Saints departed; and Popish Prateolus himself, maketh not this doctrine any of Aerius his errors; and treating of Vigilantius, he produceth only Lindanus and Hosius (two most partial Pontificians) affirming him to have been condemned of heresy for Epiphan. Haeres. 77. Aug. d. Haer. haeres. 53. this cause. Wherefore our Adversary proveth himself a weak Antiquary, when he affirmeth that Aerius and Vigilantius, were condemned of heresy, because they denied Invocation of Saints deceased. Fourthly, The Magdeburgians, which in the third Centurie observe, Non obscura vestigia, &c, some not very obscure traces, or footsteps, in the writings of the Doctors of this age, concerning Invocation of Saints, speak of the least degree and kind of Invocation, to wit, Compellation; and beside, they probably suspect, that suppositious Sentences have been inserted into the Books of ancient Fathers a Cent. 4. c. 4. 297. Hinc apparet, malignum spiritum tantorum virorum Scriptis plurima inseruisse, etc. Sicut autem supra monuimus, apparet 〈◊〉 esse depravata, & supposita in istorum doctorum Scriptis. . Lastly, Ireneus b Iren. li. 5. c. 19 manifest itaque in sua propria veniente Domino, & sua propria cum baiulante conditione, quae baiulatur ab ipso, & recapitulationem eius quae in ligno fuit inobedientiae, per eam quae in ligno est inobedientiam faciente, & seductione illa 〈◊〉, qua seducta est male illa quae iam viro destinata erat: virgo Eua per veritatem Euangelizata est bene ab Angelo iam sub viro virgo Maria. Quemadmodum enim illa per Angelicum Sermonem seducta est, ut effugeret Deum praevaricata verbum eius, ita & haec per Angelicum 〈◊〉 Euangelizata est, ut portaret Deum, obediens eius verbo. Et sicut illa seducta est ut effugeret Doum, sic haec suasa est obedire Deo, uti virginis Euae, 〈◊〉 Maria, fieret Aduocata. styleth the Virgin Marie, The Advocate of Euah, not in regard of her Intercession for Euah and her children, after her decease and departure out of the world; but because of that which she performed, in believing and obeying the heavenly message which the Angel Gabriel brought unto her, Luke 1.38. for hereby she became a blessed Instrument of conceiving and bearing Christ jesus, and by this obedience the blessed seed was brought into the world, by her, whereby the fall of Euah and her children was repaired. And thus she was the Advocate or Comforter of c In Graeco textu proculdubio, fuit nomen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, quod & Aduocatam & consolatorem significat, ut sit sensus. Quemad. Eva generi humano fuit in exitium, ita B. Virginem eidem fuisse in solatium, quatenus Christum omnis solatij 〈◊〉 Virginali suo utero concepit. Vide Gallas. Not. in Iren. pa. 399. Euah and her children, by bearing Christ; and not because she was invocated, as a Mediator, after her death by Euahs' children. Jesuit. Neither can Protestants deny this to have been the Doctrine of the Fathers, but seek to discredit them, as if they had been various, uncertain, contradictorious in this point. Magdeburg. Cent. 4. cap. 4. But seeing Antiquity, that hath perused their works now more than 1300 years, never noted such contradictions in them, Christian wisdom and charity will never be so persuaded of the Fathers by Protestants, specially their Allegations being such as may easily be explicated, so as they make nothing at all against this Catholic Custom. ANSWER. Protestants maintain, that invocation of Saints can be no Article of Faith, although it were manifest, that some Fathers living since, or before the days of Constantine, had believed or practised the same; for every Article of Christian Faith must be grounded upon divine Revelation a Aquin. Com. sup. joh. 21. Lect. 6. Notandum autem quod cum multi scriberent de Canonica veritate, haec est differentia, quod illi qui scripserunt canonicam Scripturam sicut Euangelistae & Apostoli & alij huiusmodi, ita constantèr eam asserunt quod nihil dubitandum relinquunt, & ideò dicit & scimus, quià verum est testimonium eius, & Gal. 1.8. Si quis Euangelizaucrit, etc. cuius ratio est, quià sola Canonica Scriptura est regula fidei. Aug. ep. 48. Audi dicit Dominus, non dicit Rogatus, aut Donatus, aut Vincentius, aut Hilar. aut Ambros. aut August. sed dicit Dominus. Id. d. unit. Eccles. cap. 5. Sunt certilibri Dominici, quorum authoritati vtriquè consentimus, utriquè credimus, utriquè seruimus, ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam, ibi discutiamus causam nostram. Id. contr. Max. Arian. lib 3. cap. 13. Nec ego Nicaenum, nec tu debes Arimense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium, nec ego huius authoritate, nec tu illius detineris. Scripturarum authoritatious non quorumcunquè proprijs, sed vtrisquè communibus testibus, res cum re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione concertet, utriquè tanti ponderis molibus cedamus. . But all opinions of the Fathers, are not divine Revelation, and the holy Fathers do not challenge to themselves infallibility of judgement, neither do our Adversaries yield the same unto them b Canis. d. Maria. Deip. lib. 1. cap. 5. Quamquam minus attinet veteres excusare Scriptores, choir parum considerata, & in nullam adhuc disputationem adducta, suam dicere sententiam libere potuerunt, nullam verò firmam & necessariam credendi regulam aliis hac in re, praescribere aut voluerunt aut debuerunt: versabantur illi in aliis de fide quaestionibus. Maldon. in joh. ca 2. v. 4. Inter veteres Auctores paucos admodum invenio qui non aut apertè dieunt, aut obscurè significent, aliquam culpam aut errorem certè fuisse quod filium ad faciendum miraculum in citaverit, si non ob aliud, certè quià 〈◊〉 & antè tempus id fecit. Can. loc. lib. 7. cap. 3. Alia claritas Mathei, alia Hieronimi, alia Esaiae, alia Ambrosijs, atquè auctores Canonici ut superni coelestes 〈◊〉 perpetuam stabilemquè constantiam servant, reliqui verò Scriptores sancti inferiores & humani sunt, deficiuntquè interdum, ac monstrum quandoquè pariunt praeter convenientem ordinem institutumquè naturae. . Therefore a surer foundation must be laid to prove Adoration, and Invocation of Saints to be a necessary duty, than a few scattered opinative sentences of Ecclesiastical writers. Nevertheless, Protestants are able to give satisfaction concerning the judgement of Antiquity in this point. And we have proved that the eldest Fathers for those ages, in which Egesippus saith, The Church continued a Virgin c Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 3. ca 28. , taught no such Doctrine. Secondly, no general Council, nor yet any particular Council confirmed by a general, did ever authorize or decree invocation of Saints, as it is now maintained by Papals, to have been a necessary duty or practice. Thirdly, there be sundry Principles and other passages in the Books of the Fathers, by which this doctrine may be confuted. Jesuit. For all they say in this kind is reduced to these five heads: First, That Saints are not invocated * Rom. 10. cap. 14. Ambros. d. Obitu. Theodos. by Faith, as authors of the benefits we crave. ANSWER. Our Adversary hath collected five Expositions to elude such testimonies as we produce out of antiquity. First, whereas many Father's treading in the steps of holy Scripture, affirm that religious prayer is a proper worship belonging to the sacred Trinity; and by this argument they conclude against the Arians and Macedonians, that Christ jesus and the holy Ghost are very God, because Christians believe in them, and pray unto them a Tertul. d. Trin. ca 14. Si homo tantummodò 〈◊〉, quomodò adest vbiquè invocatus, cú haec hominis natura non sit, sed Dei, ut adesse omni loco possit? Si homo tantummodò 〈◊〉, cur homo in orationibus Mediator invocatur? cum invocatio hominis ad praestandum salutem inefficax iudicetur. Si homo tantummodò Chtistus, cur spes in illum ponitur? cum spes in homine maledicta referatur. Basil. d. Spir. Sanct. c. 22. Spiritum sanctum esse 〈◊〉 Deum probat ex eo, quià piorum praeces vbiquè locorum exaudit. Orig. in Epist. ad Rom. ca 10. Si invocare Domini nomen, & adorare Deum, unum atquè idem est, sicut invocatur Christus & adorandus est Christus, & sicut 〈◊〉 Deo patri primo omnium orationes, ita & Domino jesu Christo: & sicut offerrimus postulationes Patri, ità offerrimus postulationes & Filio. Et sicut offerrimus 〈◊〉 actiones Deo, ità gratias offerrimus Saluatori. . The jesuit telleth us, that the Fathers intent only, that we may not invocate creatures by faith, as authors of the benefits we crave. But if this gloss or solution be sufficient, than the Argument of the Fathers concludeth not against the Arians, that Christ is God, because he is invocated b Athanas. c. Arian. Orat. 2. in fine. Sanctos non à Creato postulare, ut auxiliator sit, etc. pag. 164. , for the Arian using the jesuits distinction, may reply, That Christ is invocated as a Mediator, and as the son of God by adoption, but not as very God, and the prime Author of the benefits which Christian people crave. Jesuit. Seconly, that Angels are not to be honoured * Origen. li. 5. contr. Celsum. & li. 8. circà finem. as Gods, nor by sacrifices in the Heathenish manner. ANSWER. This answer is unsufficient; for the Fathers, not only when they answer Heathens, but when they instruct Christians, deliver the like speeches. And how appeareth it, that Christians were so rude in those ages, as to Imagine, that Angels were Gods? or that sacrifices after the Pagan manner, were due to them? Jesuit. Thirdly, the Priest doth not invocate Saints by direct prayer in the Liturgy of the Mass, which being a Sacrifice, the devotion thereof is to be directed * Aug. lib. 22. d. Ciuit. c. 10. Conc. Carthag. 3. cap. 23. to God only. ANSWER. Papists invocate Saints in the Liturgy of their Mass, which the Ancients did not a Aug. d. Civit. Dei, li. 22. ca 10. Ad quod Sacrificium, sicut homines Dei, qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt, suo loco & ordine nominantur, non tamé à Sacerdote qui sacrificat invocantur. : and the jesuit perceiving this, endeavoureth to cloud the matter, saying, The Priest doth not invocate Saints by direct prayer, etc. But S. Augustine's words exclude all invocation of Saints, both direct and indirect in the administration of the Eucharist, saying, At which sacrifice the Martyrs are named in their place and order, as men of God, which have overcome the world in the confession of him: but yet notwithstanding, they are not invocated by the Priest which sacrificeth. S. Augustine in these words, saith expressly, That Martyrs were named at the Communion Table, but not invocated. Jesuit. Fourthly, that the deceased do not know what is done in this world, to wit, by their natural * August. li. d. Cura pro mortuis, ca 16. forces. ANSWER. Neither did they hold as an infallible truth, that the Saints deceased, do understand by revelation, the affairs and qualities of the living, but say only that the same is possible b Aug. de Cur. pro Mort. c. 15. Possunt etiam spiritus mortuorum aliqua quae hic aguntur, quae 〈◊〉 est eos nosse, & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse, non solum 〈◊〉 vel praesentia, verum 〈◊〉 futura spiritu Dei revelante cognoscere. . And S. Augustine dares not define, whether the Martyrs hear our prayers or not, or pray in particular for the living, but affirmeth, That it may be, that they pray only in general, and that God himself, by the ministry of Angels, effecteth those marvels, which were performed at their tombs c Ib. c. 16. Quanquam ista questio vires intelligentiae meae vincat, etc. Res haec est altior quam ut à me possit attingi, etc. Definere non audio. Ib. An ipsi in locis suo merito 〈◊〉 ab omni mortalium conversatione remotis, & tamen generalistèr orantibus, sicut nos oramus pro mortuis, quibus vtiquè non praesentamur, nec ubi sint, vel quid agant scimus. . And S. Hieroms place, alleged formerly, is general. Jesuit. Fiftly, speaking unto some deceased persons, they make an If * Naz. Or. 3. in julian. , whether they hear them, because they speak unto such as they know not certainly to be Saints, as may be clearly showed in particulars, if need be. ANSWER. They knew they were Saints upon better grounds than Papists know Thomas Becket, Dominicke, Francis, Ignatius Loiola, Christopher, George, Catherine, etc. to be Saints. And did they not reckon Constantine to be in joy and glory with Christ? yet Greg. Naz. Or. 1. 〈◊〉 julian. Greg. Nazianzen using an Apostrophe to him, saith: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Hear O thou spirit of great Constantine, if thou hast any sense or notion of these things. And if holy persons deceased, are not known to be Saints, until they be canonised by Popes, the ancient Fathers could not invocate Saints by Faith, because the canonising of Saints by Popes is of a latter hatch a Bellar. d. sanct. Beatit. li. 1. ca 8. Primus Pontifex qui Sanctos legatur canonizasse videtur fuisse, Leo Papa, 3. , and being a matter of fact, some Papists b Glossa. c. 1. d. Reliq. & ven. Sanctorum in Sexto. In verb. sedis Apostolicae. Aug. Triumph. d. Pot. Eccles. q. 14. ar. 4. Canus. loc. li. 5. cap. 5. In canonizatione Sactorum, fidem Ecclesiae detrahere, sine fidei discrimine possumus. Compertum est autem eam rem ad mores spectare, errareigitur Ecclesia in morum iuditio potest. Illud verò Thomae, & Antonini testimonio comprobatur, qui non aiunt certò & firmiter, sed pie credendum esse Ecclesiam in re huiusmodi non errate. Nam quod absolutè possit illa ratio confirmat, quod in id genus iuditijs, Ecclesia, hominum eorum testimonijs innititur, qui & fallere & falli possunt. question the Pope's judgement, whether it be infallible or not, in canonising of Saints. Jesuit. This Truth supposed, I cannot but conceive Hope, that your Majesty professing so much love of the first Primitive ages, may receive satisfaction about this custom, the causes of Protestants dislike being weak, and not to be opposed against the strength of so long continued an authority, as I shall endeavour to demonstrate in their eight usual exceptions. ANSWER. The foundation of your structure is dubious, and in itself over weak, to carry your heavy vast roof. For custom and long continued practice of men, in civil affairs, may be of force c Tertul. d. Cor. Mil. c. 4. Consuctudo in civilibus 〈◊〉 pro lege suscipitur. ; but in matters of Faith, although it may sometimes be an handmaid, yet it can never be a Principle or foundation. It is not just, saith S. Basil d Basil. cp. 80. Non, est iustum consuetudinem legem ac regulam sacere rectae Doctrinae. Scriptura 〈◊〉 inspirata judex 〈◊〉. , to make custom a law, and rule of right Doctrine, the holy Scripture given by divine inspiration, must be appointed judge. And Saint Cyprian a Cyprian. Epist. 63. Neque hominis consuetudinem sequi oportet, sed Dei veritatem: cum per Isaiam Deus loquatur & dicat, sine causa autem colunt me, mandata & doctrinas hominum docentes. Hier. in jerem. ca 9 Nec parentum nec Maiorum sequendus est error, sed authoritas Seripturarum ac Dei docentis imperium. Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. At inquitis, non est fas nobis evertere consuetudinem traditam à patribus, etc. Mala consuetudo post excessum ex hac vita, vanam poenitentiam affert cum supplicio. Ib. Fugiamus ergo consuetudinem, fugiamus tanquam scopulum difficilem, aut charibdis minas: suffocat homines à veritate avertit, abducit à vita, est barathrum, est malum ventilabrum consuetudo. , We may not follow the custom of men, but the verity of God, because the Lord saith by his Prophet, In vain do they worship me, teaching the Precepts and Doctrines of men. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. Invocation of Saints not to be disliked, because not expressed in Scripture. ANd first I must satisfy the transcendental cause of their dislike, which is, That Worship and Jnuocation of Saints deceased, is no where expressly set down in Scripture; without expesse warrant whereof, nothing may lawfully be done that belongs to Religion. But this, though carrying a show of devotion, in the conceit of common people, is altogether unworthy of the erudition of Luther. Serm. d. Cruse: sine expresso Dei mandato. any learned Protestant: for howsoever in the beginning of their separation, they did cry for express Scripture, express commands of the written Word; yet now they are so gone from that Principle, as they are exceeding angry with us, that we should think that any of theirs were at any Wotton, in his Trial. D. john White in his Defence. p. 288. time broachers of such an absurdity; wherefore in their written Books (what they teach in Pulpits I know not) they disclaim from express Scripture, and think it a sufficient D. Field of the Church. lib. 4. warrant of a Christian Custom, that the same be grounded on Scripture, that is, may be deduced by good Discourse from Truths revealed therein, or be proved consonant unto the rules and principles thereof: according to which ample extent of Scriptures, unto things deducible from them, or consonant unto them, there is no Catholic Custom that hath not warrant in God's word, as we are able to show. ANSWER. One principal argument which Protestants make against invocation of Saints, is, that this service and devotion, hath no foundation in the holy Scripture a Chrys. in Gen. Hom. 13. Non credere hijs, quae in Divina scriptura continentur, sed alia quaedam ex propria sententia in far, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 periculi 〈◊〉 qui talia audiunt. Gregor. mor. li. 18. c. 14. Si vere loqui desiderant inde sumere debent quid loquantur. Aug. d. Trinit. li. 3. c. 11. Extat authoritas divinatum scripturarum unde mens nostra deviare non debet. Cyril. chat. 4. mihi ne credas loquenti, nisi 〈◊〉 quae praedicantur demonstrationes è divinis scripturis accepetis. . To this the jesuit an swereth. First, It is unworthy the erudition of any learned Protestant, etc. But that which was worthy in the Fathers, cannot be unworthy in us. Epiphanius argueth in this manner b Epiph. c. Collirid Haer. 59 sive 79. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, What Scripture did ever require this? Which of the Prophets did ever permit a man, much less any woman to be adored. S. Hierome c Hier. c. Heluid. ut haec quae scripta sunt non negamus, ita 〈◊〉 quae non sunt scripta renuimus: Natum Deum esse de virgine credemus, quia legimus, Mariam nupsisse post partum non credimus, quia non legimus. , As we deny nothing that is written, so we refuse things which are unwritten: we believe God to have been borne of a Virgin, because we read it: we believe not Mary, to have lived a wedded woman after her childbirth, because we do not read this. S. Ambrose, How can we use those things which we find not in holy Scripture d Ambros. quae in Scriptures sanctis non reperimus ea quo modo usurpare possumus. office li. 1. c. 23. ? A learned Papist saith e Discip. d. Temp. Serm. 23. c Bernhard. 〈◊〉 Christum mendicasse. : Because it is not read in Scripture, That Christ during the time of his preaching, was a Mendicant, therefore it followeth, that he did not beg. The sequel (saith the Author) is good: Quia in sacra Scriptura, tenet locus ab authoritate negative, because in holy Scripiure, the argument which concludeth negatively from authority, is of force. Secondly, the jesuit addeth, that Protestants are varied from their first doctrine concerning express Scripture, etc. But he must not rank men exorbitant, such as are heady opposers, and rigid exceptors against Ecclesiastical government and ceremonies, in the number of well advised Protestants. Those men indeed have forged in their own brains an axiom to serve their own turn, to wit, That Christians must have special ground out of Scripture for all circumstantial actions and decencies used in divine worship. These we refute, or better instruct, to bring them into the middle way: and we teach as followeth, First, that nothing is to be received as a part of Catholic faith, nor yet to be imposed in religion, as a duty immediately commanded by God, which is expressly or derivatively contained in holy Scripture. Secondly, outward ceremonies and things adiaphorous have general warrant in the Scripture in the doctrine of Christian liberty, and in the doctrine of the authority of the Church. And concerning things adiaphorous, it is sufficient to make them lawful, that they are consonant unto the general rules and principles of Scripture a Aug. Ep. 118. Quod neque contra fidem, neque contra bonos mores iniungitur, indifferenter est habendum, & pro 〈◊〉 inter quos vivitur societate seruandum est. . But the Romish doctrine of invocation of Saints, and offering their merits unto God, b Gabriel. in Can. Miss. lect. 30. Non frustra imploramus sanctos, quos non ut Creatores gratiae, sive beatificatores invocamus: sed ut mediatores, quorum meritis & intuitu, nobis Deus confert, quae ex nostris accipere minus digni sumus. etc. are imposed by them as matters of faith, and as a service immediately appointed by Christ and his Apostles; and they which refuse this worship, are condemned as Heretics, with a solemn Anathema. Also the said worship is made meritorious and satisfactory, yea many times preferred c Salmeron. Sup. 1. Tim. 2. Disp. 7. Ex quo videtur, quod oratio fusa per Sanctos, melior sit, quia secum continet duplicem actum. Ecclesia quae Christi spiritum habet, frequentissime per sanctos recurrit ad Deum, rarius per se ad Deum accedit. Biel. in. Can. Miss. lect. 30. Peccatoribus singularis est consolatio, quod ad sanctorum invocationem, quandoque magis animantur quam iudicis. before that which hath express warrant in Gods undoubted word. Jesuit. This only we require, that ignorant people be not judges of such inferences; an office so far above their capacities, as I am persuaded no unlearned man that hath in him any spark of humility, or any mediocrity of judgement, will undertake it: for no man is competent to judge assuredly of arguments by deduction from Scripture, that hath not exact skill, as well of Scripture to know the false sense from the true, as of Logic to distinguish Syllogisms from Paralogismes, being able to give sentence of the truth, of Principles by the one, and of the inferences by the other; a thing so hard, as even learned Divines do much suspect their own sufficiency to judge of Deductions, and dare not absolutely pronounce their sentence, but refer 〈◊〉 omnes gentes, etc. & ecce ego vobiscum sum, etc. Math. 28.20. joh. 14. 16. c. 16.13. the same to definitions of authority: which besides skill of Scripture and Logic, hath the promise of God's perpetual assistance, in teaching the Christian Church: ANSWER. We are far from appointing ignorant persons to be judges of that, which exceedeth their model and skill a Greg. Naz. orat. 1. Non cuiusuis est doctrinam de Deo 〈◊〉, etc. Sicutd ebiles oculos in solis radios converti peticulo non 〈◊〉, etc. , 1. Cor. 12. 29. and the tractation of matters, obscure and difficile, must be referred to the judicious and learned b Aug. sup. Psal. 103. Quicunque infirmi non possunt ascendere in hoc coelum, id est ad intellectum scripturarum per nubes ascendunt. Greg. mor. li. 16. c. 24. Quasi quidam in Ecclesia Senatores sunt viri doctiores. . But the promise of Christ to assist his Ministers, in teaching and governing their flock, belongeth to other Pastors, as well as to the Roman Bishop and his associates; to whom we may say as S. Hierome c Hier. ad Pammach. An tu solus Ecclesia es, & qui te 〈◊〉 a Christo excluditur, tibi soli licet Ecclesiae iura calcare, tu quicquid feceris norma doctrinae est? doth in another case: Are you alone the Church, and is every one excluded from Christ, which offendeth you? may you betrample the right of the Church, and yet whatsoever you do, it must be a rule of Doctrine? Jesuit. Wherefore if Protestants will bind us to bring express Scripture for the worship of Images, adoration of the Sacrament, invocation of Saints; they must themselves likewise be bound to bring express Scripture against Anabaptists, for Christening of infants, for their keeping of the Sunday in lieu of the ancient Sabbaoth day, for their dedicating of days in memory of the Apostles, with religious solemnity, for the cross in Baptism, and other such things observed in their Religion, not expressed in Scripture. And if deduction from Scripture, or consonancy therewith, be sufficient to warrant these customs, Why should they mislike the worship and invocation of Saints; for which (besides the judgement of the most flourishing and learned antiquity that ever was since the Apostles days, to wit, the Chemnitius ubi supra. Fathers of the fourth age confessedly consenting with us) we bring more clear warrant from scripture, than they can bring for the before mentioned observation, of them religiously kept? ANSWER. If you will maintain Invocation of Saints, as a matter of faith, or necessary duty, appointed immediately by God, you must confirm the same, either by express Scripture, or by arguments out of the Scripture, orby some other revelation which is infallibly divine, besides the Scripture a Aquin. p. 1. q. 1. ar. 8. Innititur fides nostra, Revelationi Apostolis & Prophetis factae, qui canonicos libros scripserunt, non autem Revelationi si qua fuit aliis doctoribus facta. . But if you urge the same, only as a thing adiaphorous, it is sufficient to make the practice lawful, if it be not repugnant to the Scripture. But this latter imposeth no necessity upon other Churches which have liberty to prescribe their own adiaphorous rights. The instances which you present unto us, of infant's Baptism, keeping Sunday in lieu of the legal Sabboath, and the signe of the Cross in Baptism, arguing from them, that some things are of necessary observation, and practised by ourselves without express Scripture to warrant them, are answered as before. First, baptinng of infants is deduced evidently from the Scriptures, by the confession of your learned Cardinal b Bellarmin. d. Bapt. li. 1. c. 9 Colligitur satis aperte ex scriptura. Ibid. Deducitur evidenter ex Scriptures. . Secondly, there is express mention of the Lords day, and of the religious observing thereof in the text of the new Testament, Act. 20.7. 1. Cor. 16.2. And the Primitive Church c Ignat. Epist. ad Magnes. Iust. Mart. Apolog. 2. Orig. in Exod. Hom. 7. 〈◊〉. Serm. 61 immediately succeeding the Apostles, testifieth expressly, the observation of this day, to have been grounded upon Apostolical institution. But Romish invocation of Saints, wanteth the former of these, totally, and Papists can hardly name one authentical Author of the first 500 year, which affirmeth that invocation of Saints is a divine or Apostolical tradition. Thirdly, the sign of the Cross in Baptism, is an ancient ceremony, but yet adiaphorous, and therefore express Scripture is not necessary to warrant the use of it. But your invocation of Saints and Image worship, are made matters of faith, and for the practice, so inviolable, that the living Saints and Images of God, must be destroyed and consumed in the topheth of your inquisition, if they will not bend and bow the knee according to your tradition. Jesuit. Jesuit 2. Knowledge of Prayers made to them communicable, and communicated unto Saints. THe second cause why Protestants dislike praying to Saints, is, for that they think by teaching that Saints hear our Petitions, we attribute unto them knowledge proper to God only: for Saints cannot know all Prayers made to them, without seeing at once what is done in every part of the world, nor know the sincere devotion wherewith they are done, without seeing the secret affections of men's hearts: but to know what is done in all parts of the world, and the secrets of hearts is knowledge proper to God. Therefore we cannot teach that they hear our Petitions, without attributing to them knowledge proper to God. To this exception, answer is made, That knowledge proper to God is of two kinds, the one so proper, as it is altogether incommnnicable with any creature; and such is the comprehension of his divine essence. The second is proper so, that naturally creatures are not capable thereof, yet the same may be imparted unto them by supernatural light, elevating them to a high and divine state, above the possibility of nature. In this kind is the vision of the divine essence, face to face, which being granted unto Saints, sight of the inferior world, and of the secrets of hearts, is without cause reputed incommunicable with them, according to the saying of Saint Prosper, Nothing is so secret, De vita contemplate. l. 5. c. 4. as the knowledge thereof may be denied unto the perfectly Blessed, their seeing God with pure understanding, being without comparison a thing more excellent: Thus Saint Prosper, whose Argument doth convince, That Saints may know what is done in the world, and also the secrets of hearts. For to see the whole world, and what is done in it, is not higher knowledge, nor requires a more perfect understanding, than to see face to face, the Divine essence immense and incomprehensible, before whom, the world is no more than Momentum staterae & guttaroris antelucani: but the Saints of God (according Sap. 11.23. to Christian Faith) have an elevated understanding, able to behold clearly and distinctly the Divine essence, with the infinite beauties and perfections thereof: How then can a Christian conceive so meanly of them, as to doubt whether they have sufficient understanding, to behold things done in this inferior world, as far as they belong to their state? ANSWER. If it be not certain, either by Divine Revelation, or by other infallible demonstration, That the blessed Saints deceased, hear and understand our Prayers, and behold the secret thoughts and intention of the heart a Hug. Vict. in Epist. ad Rom. q. 228. Queritur an sancti, quorum patrocinia postulamus, pro nobis interpellent? Resp. Sanctos pro nobis interpellare, non est aliud quam Deum pro meritis eorum bonos affectus quos habemus in eos propter Deum remunerare: & ideo nihil interest, sive nos audiant, five non. Ibid. lib. 2. d. Sacram. p. 16. c. ultimo. , than it is a vain thing to pray unto them, by the confession of many of our Adversaries b Suar. d. Relig. to. 2. li. 1. c. 10. d. Orat. Si non cognoscunt nostras Orationes, videtur 〈◊〉 & superuacaneum, orare ad ipsas (animas) nam quod Medina respondet, etc. pa. 28. Molina. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. disp. 6. Quod si Ecclesia non supponeret, nostras Orationes ab eis videri atque audiri, prius oraret Deum, uteas illis revelaret, deinde suas ad Beatos preces funderet. Lorca. d. Beatitud. Disp. 25. Perfectio Beatitudinis non attenditur ex cognitione existentium quae Beatus in verbo videt, quae non videntur ex vi visionis, neque ex maiori penetratione essentiae, sed ostendente Deo pro suo bene placito. : but it is not certain, either by Divine Revelation, or by any other infallible demonstration, That the souls of the blessed Saints deceased, hear and understand our Prayers, and behold the secret thoughts and intention of the heart. First, This degree of knowledge is appropriated to God himself c Hieron. sup. Math. c. 9 Chrysost. in Matth. Hom. 30. & sup. john. Hom. 23. Cyril. in joh. lib. 2. cap. 19 August. in Psal. 7. & in Psal. 33. , 1. Kings 8.39. 2. Chro. 6.30. Rom. 8.27. jer. 17.10. Heb. 4.13. 1. Cor. 14.25. job 34.21, 22. Psal. 11.4. Pro. 15.3. 1. Cor. 1. 11. Secondly, That he communicateth the same (at leastwise ordinarily) to the glorified Saints, is not revealed in his Word. Thirdly, The jesuits Argument, to wit, The glorious Saints behold the Divine essence, immense and incomprehensible, with the infinite beauty and perfections thereof, face to face, 1. Cor. 13. 12. 1. john 3.2. Ergo, They behold the secrets of men's hearts living on earth, is denied; for glorious Saints behold the Divine essence in a finite manner a Aquin. 1.2. q. 3. ar. 1. Montesin. ib. disp. 3. n. 3. Beati non vident Deum visione increata, etc. Sed creata visione, & fruitione Dei funt Beati. Martinez. ib. dub. 4. ad 1. Visio beatifica est infinita secundum quid ex parte obiecti, absolute tamen est finita. Gandau. Quodlib. 7. q. 4. Dico quod tum propter limitationem intellectus creatisic elevati, tum propter ipsum obiectum, voluntariè se demonstrans, & alia quae in se videntur, tum propter ipsum cognitum, potest ipsa divina essentia videri sive cognosci ab intellectu creato, absque omni cognitione seu visione alicuius creaturae in illa aut per illam. , and according to the measure and capacity of creatures, and so far forth only as it pleaseth God, and is sufficient for their beatitude. But no divine Revelation affirmeth, that it pleaseth God b Aquin. in 4. Sent. d. 49. q. 2. ar. 5. ad. 6. Sicut se ostendit cui vult, ita in se ostendit quae vult. Velosillo. Advert. in 9 To. Aug. q. 16. Omnis 〈◊〉 & perfectio visionum beatificarum, provenit à lumine gloriae, hoc est à 〈◊〉 divina, & bonitate Dei, qui disponere potest quatenus & quantum se extendat cognitio cuiuscunque videntis Deum. , or is necessary to their beatitude, that they should understand the secrets of men's hearts here upon earth: and accordingly Saint Augustine saith c Aug. lib. d. cur. pro. mort. c. 13. Ibi sunt spiritus defunctorum, ubi non vident quaecunque aguntur, aut eveniunt hominibus in hac vita. , The souls of the defunct are there, where they see not all things which are done, or which happen to people in this life. And concerning the sequel of the former Argument, Aquinas himself saith d Aquin. p. 1. q. 12. ar. 8. Angeli nesciunt futura contingentia, & cogitationes cordium, hoc enim solius Deiest. , The blessed Angels behold the Divine Essence, and yet they know not all things, but they are ignorant of future things, being contingent, and of the cogitations of the heart e Vid. Aquin. 1. p. q. 57 ar. 4. Malon. in 2. Sent. d. Angel. Disp. 16. . And whereas the Argument is further pressed, They which know or see the greater, understand and behold the less: But the Saints behold the Essence of God, which is the greater, and therefore they understand the secrets of men's hearts. The Answer is f Aquin. p. 1. q. 12. ar. 8. ad 2. Ad secundum dicendum quod videns speculum, non est necessarium, quod omnia in speculo videat, nisi speculum visu suo comprehendat. Bannes. ibid. pag. 179. Nulla est implicatio, quod aliqua cognitio attingat obiectum primarium sui, & non attingat obiectum secundarium-Poterit esse tam remissum lumen gloriae, ut tantum ostendat divinam essentiam, quae est obiectum primarium, & non aliquam creaturam. , That if the greater and the less be of the same kind, and if the greater do necessarily represent the less, ad extra, or externally; and he which understandeth the greater, comprehendeth the whole perfection and latitude thereof; than it is true, that they which know or see the greater, understand and see the less: but if any of these conditions be wanting, than the same is false g Durand. 3. Dist. 14. q. 2. n. 4. Intellectus creatus videns clare divinam essentiam, videt in ipsa omnia, quae per ipsam naturaliter, & ex necessitate representantur, alia 〈◊〉 non. Martinez. 1.2. q. 5. ar. 2. dub. 1. Conclus. 4. Creaturae sunt in Deo, ut in causa & Principio: sed non oportet ut cognito Principio vel causa, cognoscantur omnes effectus vel conclusiones: Ergo, benè potest videns Deum, non videre omnes creaturas in illo, & sic unus alio plures vel 〈◊〉 videre. . First, Every one which beholdeth the Sun, doth not behold every thing which the Sun effecteth or inlightneth a Velosillo. Advert. in. 9 to. Aug. ad Quaesit. 16. Dato quod quis solemn, ita perfectè cognosceret, sicut beatus Deú cognoscit, non oporteret ut cognosceret distinctè & singularitèr omnes effectus Solis, ergo nequè oportet quod beatus in Deo cognoscat omnes effectus Dei. . Secondly, Angels behold the face of God, Math. 18. 10. and yet they may be ignorant of some inferior things b Malon. 2. 〈◊〉. Angel. Disp. 7. Aquin. 1. pa. q. 58. ar. 5. Cognoscunt mysteria gratiae, non quidem omnia, nec equaliter omnes, sed secundum quod Deus voluerit eis revelare. , to wit, of some supernatural mysteries c Bannes. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. Nullus beatus cognoscit necessario, & ex natura visionis beatificae, aliquam creaturam, quantum ad eius actualem existentiam, sed cognitio actualis existentiae cuiuscunquè creaturae, pendet ex dispositione divinae voluntatis. , Eph. 3.10. and of the hour when the day of judgement shall be, Math. 24.36. And Bannes saith, No blessed Saint beholdeth all individuals, or their cogitations in the divine Essence d Ibidem. Sum. Text. Nullus beatus videt in divina Essentia omnia individua, omnes cogitationes eorum, & omnia quae non sunt facta, fieri tamen possunt. . Jesuit. Secondly, As for the secrets of hearts, God is without comparison, more spiritual, more secret, more invisible, and out of the sight of natural understanding, than is any the most secret thought of man or Angel: and yet the Saints have so clear penetrating and all discovering light, as they do most perspicuously discern the divine, most hidden, and unsearchable Essence. What reason then is there, why Christians should think the secrets of men's hearts invisible Hier. 17. 9 Colloss. 1.15. 1. Tim. 1.17. and unsearchable unto them? If we look into Scripture, as the heart of man is said to be unsearchable, but to God only: so likewise God is said to be invisible but only to himself; so that to Saints, together with the sight of hearts, we must deny the fight of God, or else interpret the sayings of Scripture, That man's heart and God are invisible, to wit, by mere natural light, and that both are visible unto Saints by that light, whereof the Prophet said, In thy light we shall see the light. Psal. 35. 10. ANSWER. The inconsequence of this Argument is palpable: for there is the same reason of Angels, and of glorified Saints, in respect of beatifical vision. But Angels, although they behold the face of God, yet they understand not the cogitations of man's heart, according to the Tenet of Aquinas a Aquin. 1. p. quaest. 57 ar. 4. Cognoscere cogitationes cordis est proprium Dei, jerem. 17. Ergo Angeli nó cognoscunt secreta cordis. himself. And if the Adversary fly to divine Revelation, and will affirm, that Angels and blessed Saints understand the thoughts of men's hearts, because God doth manifest the same unto them, as he did sometimes to the Prophets. First, he must remember that his bare word, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no proof, for he was never in heaven to bring us news from thence a Aug. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 22. c. 29. Et illa quidem actio, vel potius quies atquè otium, quale suturum sit si verum velim dicere nescio. Non enim hoc unquam per corporis sensum vidi. Si autem hoc ment & intelligentia vidisse me dicam, quantum est aut quid est nostra intelligentia ad illam excellentiam? , & the word of God is silent in teaching this Doctrine. Secondly, if God reveal, and report the prayers of the living to the Saints, before the Saints know them, God is a Nuncio, and as it were a Mediator between one creature and another; and the invocation of Saints is a circle, first passing immediately to God himself, then from God to Saints, and then back again to God. Thirdly, Cardinal Bellarmine himself showeth the weakness of the former assertion of our Adversary, saying b Bellar. d. sanct. beatitud. lib. 1. cap. 20. Si indigerent Sancti nova Revelatione Ecclesia non diceret ita audacter omnibus Sanctis orate pro nobis: Sed peteret aliquando à Deo ut revelaret eis praeces nostras. Deindè non possit ratio reddi tam facilè, cur Sancti nunc invocantur, & antè adventum Christi non invocarentur. , If the Saints needed a new Revelation, the Church could not with such boldness say to all the Saints, Pray for us, but it should rather beseech God (at least sometimes) that he would reveal our Prayers unto them. Besides, the reason could not so easily be given, why Saints should be invocated now, and not be invocated before Christ's coming. Jesuit. If there were a glass of Diamond so clear and excellent, that whatsoever is done in London in secret corners, should therein particularly and distinctly appear; surely he that hath eyes to see that glass, may likewise therein discern what is done all over the city. Now most certain it is, that in God, all creatures, all actions done in the world, and all the most secret thoughts of hearts so perspicuously and distinctly shine, as they are in themselves, so that the Saints having light to see the divine Essence, may in him clearly discern whatsoever is done in the world, belonging to their state, though never so secret, according to the saying of S. Gregory * Greg. Homil. 40. Qui Creatoris sui claritatem vident nihil in creatura agitur quod videre non possunt, lib. 12, Moral. c. 13. : Nothing is done about any creature which they cannot see, who see the clarity of the Creator. And again we must believe, that they who see the clarity of the omnipotent God within themselves, are not ignorant of any thing that is without, which that Protestants may the less dislike, I prove to be grounded on the Scriptures. ANSWER. The Popish speculation of the speculative glass of the Trinity, is not Catholic Doctrine in their own School a AEstius. in 4. Sent. d. 46. §. 19 Non est necesse affirmare, quod semper omnes Sancti cum Christo regnantes, cognoscant particularitèr, omnium & singulorum praeces quomodocunque generalitèr, ad se directas, & fortè ob huiusmodi dubitatiunculam non fuit visum patribus, Trid. Concilij, quaestionem hanc an Sancti, praeces viventium cognoscant absolutè definire. , and therefore the jesuit is overseen in obtruding the same upon us. Pius a Ponte b Pius a Pont. in 1. p. Tho. qu. 12. ar. 8. dub. 5. Dicendum igitur divinam essentiam non dici proprie speculum, nequè per Metaphoram ei propriè accomodari conditionem speculi. Bannes. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. Resp. Cum. Caiet. in hoc art. & colligitur ex D. Tho. q. 8. d. Verit. ar. 4. & q. 12. ar. 6. Divina Essentia, propriè loquendo, non est speculum creaturarum, nec creaturae continentur in ipsa tanquam in speculo. Quoniam de ratione speculi est, quod representet per distinctas species acceptas ab ipsis rebus representatis. Continentur ergo creaturae in divina Essentia propriè loquendo, tanquam in causa effectiva & exemplari & ita continentur per modum unius, & eodom modo representantur, & ex consequenti non est necesse, quod visa divina Essentia, distinct cognoscantur in ipsa, omnes creaturae. a modern Scholeman, hath these words: The divine Essence cannot be termed a Glass properly, neither by Metaphor doth the condition (or likeness) of a Glass properly agree unto it: and he citeth for his Tenet, Thomas, Caietan, Capreolus, Durand, Ferrariensis, and Bannes, and the greater part of Pontificians hold, that it doth not represent things, according to the manner of a natural Glass, but only according to the good will and pleasure of God, and thereupon they say, that it is Speculatum voluntarium c Bannes. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. Nullus beatus cognoscit necessario, & ex natura visionis beatificae, aliquam creaturam quantum ad eius actualem existentiam, sed cognitio actualis existentiae cuiuscunquè creaturae, pendet ex dispositione Divinae voluntatis. Gabriel. Biel. 3. d. 14. q. vnic. Deus est speculum voluntarium ostendens in se quae vult, caetera occultans, nec in eo relucent, nisi quae vult à vidente se cognosci, quià Deus in intellectu se videntis causat cognitionem voluntariè, & contingentèr illarum creaturarum quas vult 〈◊〉, & quarum cognitionem non causat, occultare dicitur. Velosillo. Advert. in Aug. tom. 9 ad. q. 16. Ità intelligendum est quod inquit Augustinus lib. de vid. Deo. Deum esse speculum voluntarium, quià, scilicet plus velminus ostendit se, & ea quae in se lucent, prout ipse vult. , such a glass as (according to our manner of apprehension) maketh reflection of such notices as God is pleased to manifest, more or less d Bannes, in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. B. Dominicus, B. Franciscus fortè sunt aequales in beatitudine, & tamen B. Dominicus alia videt in verbo, & alia B. Franciscus. AEstius. 4. sent. d. 46. §. 19 Est speculum illud voluntarium, repraesentans in se, ipsum aspicientibus, ea quae vult, & quandò vult. , when, in what manner, and to what persons himself pleaseth. And therefore the jesuits supposition, if there were a glass of diamond, may conclude according to the reflection of a natural glass, but it is inconsequent according to the reflection of a voluntary glass e Idem. Divina Essentia necessario & naturalitèr repraesentat divino intellectui omnes cogitationes & volitiones ipsius Dei, intellectui verò creato nullam repraesentat necessariò, sed prorsus voluntate libera repraesentat quas vult cogitationes. Occam. in sent. lib. 4. q. 13. Deus est speculum voluntarium, & aliquae creaturae possunt videri in eo sine aliis, ità quod beatus non videat alios effectus nec creaturas in Deo, nec sicut in causa, nec sicut in speculo praesentante, nec sicut in efficient, sed si naturalitèr repraesentaret, tunc non videtur ratio, quarè una creatura esset magis visa, quam alia. . Gregory, in the places objected, according to Aquinas f Aquim. p. 1. q. 12. ar. 8. Ad. 1. Gregorius loquitur, quantum ad sufficientiam obiecti, scilicet, Dei, quod quantum in se est, sufficienter continet omnia, & demonstrat. Non tamen sequitur quod vnusquisquè videns Deum, omnia cognoscar, quià non perfectè comprehendit ipsum. , speaketh of the sufficiency of the object in itself, and not of the actual demonstration which it maketh: or else he speaketh of the knowledge of all things essential to blessedness, as Occam and Lombard take it a Occam. Dial. pa. 2. tr. 1. cap. 3. Dicédum est quod dicit magister. sent. lib. 2. d. 11. Gregorius haec dicit loquens de Angelis, etc. videtur dicere quod omnia sciant Angeli, & nihil sit quod nesciant: sed hoc accipiendum est de hijs, quorum cognitio beatum facit cognitorem, ut sunt ea quae ad mysterium unitatis & Trinitatis pertinent. . And if his words be taken generally, than it will follow, that the blessed Saints are ignorant of nothing that is done without them, and that they behold intuitively every particular and special action and motion, both of superior and of inferior creatures: but our Adversaries themselves deny this b Navarret. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. contr. 44. Non enim beatus, eo ipso quo aliquis viator fuit commissus eius regimini, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cogitationis 〈◊〉, etc. 282. Ad. b. Virginem non 〈◊〉 cognoscete omnes cogitationes Christi Domini. , as it hath formerly been showed. Jesuit. First, if Saints by reason of their blissful estate do so participate of divine nature and wisdom, as they communicate with him in the power of governing the nations of the world, than Saints have knowledge of things that are done in this world, else how could they be able to govern and rule it. But Scriptures in plain and express terms, make Saints participate with Christ in the rule and government of the world, according to his promise, To him that Apoc. 2. 26. conquereth, I will give power over Nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of Iron, that is, with power of inflexible equity. I will make him a pillar in the Apoc. 3. v. 12. Temple of my God. And the blessed Saints say of themselves, That they were chosen out of Countries and Nations Apoc. 5. v. 10. to be the Priests of God, and that they should rule with him upon the earth: Therefore they know what is done upon earth, so far forth at least, as the affairs of earth do specially appertain unto them, and such, without doubt, are our deutionos towards them. ANSWER. The places of Scripture which you produce to prove your Assumption etc. speak not in plain and express terms of Saints deceased, but of the Saints living in this present world a Viegas in Apoc. cap. 2. Comment. 4. Sect. 6. Itaque illud existimamus, duos esse sensus literales huius loci. Vnum ut promittatur Eccleliae universae, etiam in rebus temporalibus faelicitas, quod nimirum gentes multas sibi subijciat, imperium in subditos securè exerceat, tantaque sit potentia, ut rebelles possit facile coercere, haereticorum impetus comprimere, denique adversariorum vires frangere, nulliusque potentiam formidare. Alterum ut iis qui vicerit, id est, jezabeli eiusque Sectatoribus, videlicet tum pravis hominibus, tum Haereticis, seize strenue & animose opposuerint, promittatur fore, ut ob 〈◊〉 probitatem, adversusque jezabelem animi magnitudinem, in alto dignitatis gradu collocentur, praelatique aliorum efficiantur, itaque ad eum locum evehantur, ex quo alios virga ferrea, id est inflexibili & aequissima regant, legumque sanctitate devinciant: rebels autem ac petulantes, imperio compescant, & Disciplinae severitate in officio contineant, aut si nolint pro ratione muneris in eos animaduertant. Ribera. Apoc. 2. v. 26. Omnino loquitur de potestate quam sancti exercebunt in die iudicij, in omnes Gentes qui Christo non paruerint iudicantes eas cum Christo & aeternae morti tradentes. . And if they be expounded of Saints deceased, the judiciary power mentioned in these Texts, is that which shall be exercised by them, at the last day, when they shall be assessors with Christ, Mat. 19, 28.1. Cor. 6, 2. And in this manner the ancient Expositors, Victorinus, Arethas, Beda, Rupertus, Ansbertus, and also Hugo Carensis, Albertus, Lira, Viegas, Alchasar, &c, expound the first place, Reuel. 2.26 b Rupert. in 〈◊〉. lib. 2. In isto gradu vincere, est omnes quae infirmum faciunt hominem passiones superare, gaudium, timorem, spem, atque dolorem, de animo propellere atque sugare, id est seculo non gaudere, seculum non timere, secularia non sperare, pro secularibus non dolere. Ansbert. in Apoc. 2. Si quod membrorum digne capiti in haeserit, veraciter habere dicitur quod ipsum caput hereditario iure possidere probatur. An non Ecclesia in capite suo potestatem super Gentes accepit, quae in Sanctis praedicatoribus ipsas Gentes ex quibus constat, authoritate capitis sui, vigore capitis sui, scientia capitis sui, docet & regit atque ab illicitis operibus censura districtionis coercet? Sed nec mirum si super Gentes potestatem habet Ecclesia in terris, quae ligandi atque soluendi potestatem accepit in coelis pariter & in terris. Albert. sup. Apoc. 2. Dabo illi potestatem super Gentes. Glossa in hocseculo: & ad literam crevit Ecclesia tempore confessorum in Dominijs & possessionibus muitis. Hugo. Card. ib. Et reget illas in verga ferrea: ad literam, benè tenent hoc hodiè praelati Ecclesiarum quorum multi durius vexant subditos suos quam Laici. Alchasar. ibid. Res ipsa postulat, ut virgam hanc ferream viris Euangelicis in hac vita dari credamus. Ribera. ibid. Omnino loquitur, de potestate quam Sancti exercebunt in die iudicij. . The second place, Reuel. 3.12. is expounded of such as are Pillars in the Church militant, by Gregory, Ticonius, Primasius, Haimo, Beda, Andreas, Aretas, Anselmus, Richardus, joachimus, Albertus, Lira, Thomas, Zegerus, and Suares, (as Alchasar c Alchas. in 3. cap. Apoc. v. 12. Gregorius. 17. Moral. cap. 14. Nomen columnae accipit de iis, qui in Eccles. militanti officium columnatum egregie praestant: atque eam expositionem sequuntur hoc loco, Ticonius, Primasius, Haimo, Beda, Andreas, Aretas, Anselmus, Richardus, joachimus, Albertus, Lyra, Thomas, Zegerus, Suarez, & caeteri finè omnes. Haec omnino mihi videtur sequenda expositio. the jesuit citeth them, in his Commentary upon that Text, who also confuteth Ribera d Ad Argumenta Riberae, etc. expounding the same of the Church triumphant.) The third place Apocal. 5. 10. is expounded of the Church Militant by Rupertus, Hugo Carensis, Gagneus, Albertus, Alchasar, etc. And if it be understood of the blessed Saints, they reign upon earth, by their Doctrine and virtuous examples which they have left behind them, and they reign upon earth also, not in their own persons, by actual regiment, but in the person of Christ their head. Ambrose Ansbertus a Ansb. in Apoc. li. 2. pa. 346. 〈◊〉 potestatem, quam in tempore homo factus à patre accepit unigenitus Dei, electis suis se dare repromittit, sed in se à quo totum regitur corpus, & cui totum Ecclesiae inhaeret corpus, ipse enim secundum Apostolum, caput est omnium Electorum. Si quod ergo membrorum digne capiti inhaeserit, veraciter habere dicitur, quod ipsum caput hereditario iure possidere probatur, an non Ecclesia in capite suo potestatem supet gentes accepit, quae in Sanctis praedicatoribus, ipsas gentes ex quibus constat, authoritate capitis sui, vigore capitis sui, scientia capitis sui docet & regit, atque ab illicitis operibus censura districtionis coercet? Sed nec mirum si super gentes potestatem habet Ecclesia in terris, quae ligandi atque soluendi potestatem accepit in coelis, pariter & in terris. who lived in the year 890, hath these words: That power which the only begotten Son of God, being made man in time received of his Father, he promiseth to give to his Elect, but in himself by whom the whole body is ruled, and to whom the whole body of the Church is united; for he, as the Apostle saith, is the head of all the Elect. If any member therefore shall be worthy to continue with the head, he is truly said to have that which the head himself is proved to possess by right of inheritance. The like is said by Haimo b Haimo. in Apoc. 2. 26. Illam potestatem, quam Christus homo factus accepit a patre, electis suis se dare promittit, sed nisi quo totum corpus regitur, & cui totum Ecclesiae corpus 〈◊〉, cum enim ipse sit caput Electorum, electi vero membra illius, quod ipsum caput habet, hoc electi possidere videntur, haereditario iure. . And from hence it appeareth, that the Jesuits exposition of the places in the Revelations, is voluntary, novel, never heard off in the ancient Church, nor delivered by elder Pontificians, neither is the same followed at this day, by the learned Expositors of the Church of Rome itself: and therefore his argument being raised upon Scripture fond expounded c Gillius. Com. Th. d. sacr. doc. & Deo. l. 1. tr. 7. c. 7. in dogmarum defensione aut confirmatione utendum semper vero atque indubitato sensu scripturae. Namque si sensus certo non constet, neutiquam potest concludere rem tanquam de fide certum. 329. , is of no force. For when he argueth in this manner: Saints partake with Christ in the rule and government of the World; Ergo, they hear, and understand the prayers and devotions of the living, which are made unto them: Our answer is, that the blessed Saints do not partake with Christ, as his Ministers, Vicegerents, or Coadjutors in the actual rule and government of the inferior world, but they only partake with him in his government, as the friends of the Bride-chamber partake with the Bridegroom, by rejoicing, consenting, and reaping increase of glory, and happiness, by his actual rule and government. And this latter copartnership with Christ, in government, proveth not, that the blessed Saints hear and understand the prayers of the living: but to make his sequel good, the jesuit must prove, both that blessed Saints partake with Christ, according to the first branch of my distinction, and also that they partake with him, entirely and perfectly in every action of his government. d AEstius. in 4. sen. d. 46. §. 19 Non est necesse 〈◊〉, quod semper omnes Sancti, cum Christo regnantes cognoscant particulariter omnium & 〈◊〉 preces, etc. For it is possible for one to be of Council, and to be assistant in government to a King, and yet not to be partaker of all the King's secrets, nor to concur with him in all actions of Empery. Jesuit. Secondly, S. Paul saith, Now we know but in part, 1. Cor. 13. v. 9 we prophesy but in part, but when that of perfection shall come, that of part shall be evacuated; I now know but in part, than I shall know as I am known. By which words the Apostle signifies, that all Knowledge, both Humane and Divine, particularly the gift of Prophecy, is contained eminently in the Beatifical Light: So that the blessed Saints have the gift of Prophecy in a more excellent degree, than had the Prophets in this world. But by the light of Prophecy, holy men united with God, could see the secrets of hearts, as S. Paul saith, By the gift of Prophecy the 1. Cor. 14. secrets of hearts are manifested; and also see things absent, being present, by Light of Understanding, from whence they were absent according to their substance. The Prophet Elizeus saw in absence what passed betwixt his servant Gehezi and Naaman, to whom he said, My heart was 4. Kings 5.24. there present with thee. With far greater reason, saith S. Augustine, the Saints of God, even with eyes of body Aug. lib. 22. d. Civit. Dei, c. 29. Videbunt Sancti omnia clausis occulis etiam, unde sunt corpore absentes. Hierom. advers. Vigilant. closed up, shall see all things, not only present, but also from which they are corporally absent. This is that which Saint Hierome doth so earnestly defend against Vigilantius, That the souls of the Martyrs are present where their Shrines and Relics are, and never absent, but still ready to hear the prayers of their suppliants: not thinking (as Dr Field imposeth upon him) that they are present in so Field, of the Church, lib. 3. cap. 20. many places substantially, according to their souls, but that they are present as Elizeus was present unto Gehezi, in spirit, beholding what passed as clearly, as if they were corporally present. ANSWER. That the blessed Saints in Heaven have the gift of Prophecy formally, eminently, or in actu exercito, in respect of all individual Objects, is neither expressly affirmed by S. Paul, neither can it be collected from his Doctrine; for the use and end of this gift, was the edification of the Church Militant, 1. Cor. 12. 10. Eph. 4. 11, 12. And because this end ceaseth, in regard of the blessed Saints, Apoc. 14. 13, therefore we have no certainty a Salas, in 1. 2. q. 3. tr. 2. disp. 6. Sect. 3. AEgid. d. Present. to. 2. d. Beatitud. lib. 11. q. 8. ar. 13. §. 2. AEstius, in 4. Sent. d. 45. §. 2. Prophetiae cuacuabuntur, Linguae cessabunt, etc. Quae tria tantum ad usum praesentis seculi pertinent. , that they ordinarily and perpetually enjoy the same. And if it were granted, that they had this gift eminently; yet it followeth not, that they have the exercise of it, according to every material Object it had in this life: for some Objects of Prophecy are contingent, and accidentally b Navarret. in 1. p. Tho. q. 12. ar. 8. Mysteria quae per accidens pertinent ad fidem, licet revelentur aliquibus Beatis secundum voluntatem Dei: tamen non habent talem connexionem necessariam, cum iis, quae in via homo ex fide desiderat cognoscere, ut in illa cognitione per fidem, inveniamus sufficiens principium, ad dicendum quod in patria cognoscuntur. belonging to Prophetical Grace; and every act of knowledge belongeth not to the perfection of the glorified state. Imperfection of knowledge, to wit, in respect of the manner of knowing, and the Object known, and the Subject understanding, shall be removed in the blissful state. But where doth S. Paul affirm, That the blessed, by Divine Vision, or Revelation, understand all particular Objects, which they knew in this life? Aquinas himself c Aquin. 1. p. q. 12. ar. 8. ad. 4. Cognoscere singularia, & cogitata & facta eorum, non est de perfectione intellectus creati, nec ad hoc eius naturale desiderium tendit. hath these words: To know all particular, or individual things, and the cogitations and actions of the same, belongeth not to the perfection of a created understanding, neither doth his natural desire affect this. Also the same Author d Aquin. sup. 1. Cor. 13. Lect. 4. Cognoscam sicut cognitus sum, id est, sicut Deus cognovit essentiam meam, ita Deum cognoscam per essentiam. Hug. Carensis, ibid. Lyra, & Dionys. Carth. ibid. , with Hugo, Lyra, and others, commenting upon S. Paul's words, 1. Cor. 13. 12. (Then shall I know, even as also I am known) expoundeth them of the intuitive knowledge which B. Saints in Heaven shall have of God himself, and not of all other created Objects. But from hence it followeth not, That Saints deceased shall intuitively, or by revelation, know all other inferior things, as I have formerly proved in my Answer to the jesuits second Paragraph. S. Augustine, d. Civit. Dei, Lib. 22. cap. 29 a Nunc quid Acturi sunt in corporibus immortalibus atque spiritalibus sancti, etc. , Prosper. d. Vit. Cont. Lib. 1. cap. 4. b Receptis cum incorruptione, 〈◊〉; immortalitate corporibus, etc. speak of the knowledge of blessed men after their resurrection, affirming, That when they shall be all of them together in Heaven, their hearts shall be open each of them to other: but that the hearts of them which remain upon Earth, are open to the 〈◊〉 Saints, is not affirmed by these Fathers. S. Hierome against Vigilantius, speaketh in heat of Disputation: but he affirmeth in another place, a Hieron. Matth. 9 Sed Dominus videns cogitationes eorum, ostendit se Deum qui posset cordis occulta noscere. That because jesus knew the thoughts of some of the Scribes, he did thereby show himself to be God. Jesuit. Thirdly, It is clearly to be proved by Scripture, That holy Angels see the Prayers, and Actions, and Affections of men. In the Apocalypse, an Angel offered unto God the Apocalyps. 8. 4. Prayers of men; which he could not have done, had he not known them. ANSWER. First, The place of S. john, Apocal. 8.4. proveth not, either clearly, or obscurely, that holy Angels hear the Prayers, or see the Actions and Affections of men. For the Angel mentioned, is expounded by the ancient Expositors, and by the Romists themselves, not of an Angel by Nature, but of an Angel by Office; and by some of them, of an Angel by Type. Albertus' a Albert. sup. Apoc. 8. Dicit ergo, & alius Angelus, id est, Christus, qui est Angelus magni Concilij. in his Commentary: S. john saith, Another Angel, that is, Christ, who is the Angel of the Covenant, Esay 9 Dionifius Carthusian b Dionis. Carthus. in Apoc. 8. Dicunt Doctores Catholici hoc loco statum & cursu Ecclesiae plenius quasi à principio demonstrari atque conscribi. Vnde per Angelum istum intelligunt Christum, qui est magni Concilij Angelus, & per Incarnationis Mysterium venit in mundum, stetitque ante Altar, id est, in conspectu Ecclesiae, quae secundum Berengandum & Bedam Altare vocatur. , Catholic Doctors, etc. by this Angel understand Christ, who is the Angel of the great Council, and which by the Mystery of his Incarnation came into the world, and stood upon the Altar of the Crosse. Blasius Viegas c Vieg. in Apoc. 8. Sect. 2. Nec vero rectè, quidam erecentioribus argumentatur Angelum istum Christum esse non posse, quod Christus nunquam Angelus absolutè dicitur: satis enim est ut ex consequentibus facilè intelligi possit Christum esse, quae nisi Christo, alteri aptè accommodari non possunt. Cuius enim alterius est universae Ecclesiae incensa, hoc est orationes in Thuribulo aureo tanta maiestatis specie, Patri offer? Cuius praeterquam Christi fuit de igne quo Thuribulum aureum erat impletum, partem in terras misisse, easque diviniamoris igne inflammasse, etc. Apparet autem Christus Sacerdotis personam gerens, ut eius pro nobis apud Patrem intercessio atque interpellatio monstretur. a jesuit, We may easily perceive, that this Angel is Christ, because the things here spoken of him, can agree to no other but Christ: for who but he, can with so great Majesty offer up to God the Incense, that is, the Prayers of the universal Church? Who besides him, is able out of the Perfuming Pan, to send down into the Earth the fiery Coals of Divine Charity, and to inflame people with the burning Graces of the holy Spirit? With these, agree Ambrose d Ambros. sup. Apoc. vis. 3. c. 8. Iste Angelus, Christum significat. , Primasius e Primas in Apoc. 8. Biblioth. Sanct. Colon. to. 6. pa. 2. , Ansbertus f Ansbert. in Apoc. 8. Bibl. Sanct. Col. to. 9 p. 2. pa. 393. , Beda g Bed. to. 5. sup. Apoc. li. 2. , Haimo h Haimo, in Apoc. 8. , Hugo Cardinalis, and the Glosses i Hugo Card. Glossae totum legunt, hoc de Christo. . But if it were granted, that this Angel were a created or ministering Spirit, it cannot be proved, that Angels understand the secret cogitations of man's heart, any further than the same are manifested by signs, neither is it consequent, that people ought to pray unto them, for Priests offer the prayers of the Church to God, and yet no man doth therefore invocate Priests a Aug. c. Epist. Parm. lib. 2. Sicut Parmenianus quodam loco Mediatorem posuit Episcopum, inter populum & Deum, quis eum ferret bonorum arque fidelium Christianorum. . Jesuit. Our Saviour witnesseth, That the Angels rejoice at Luke 15.10. the conversion of a sinner: so they must needs know it, nor can they know it without knowing the sinner's heart, conversion not being true, nor worthy of joy, except it proceed from the heart. ANSWER. Not only the Angels of God, but holy men on earth, rejoice at the conversion of a sinner, Luke 15.24. 2. Cor. 7.9. Likewise Parents, Ministers, and 〈◊〉 rejoice, etc. and yet it followeth not from hence, That holy men on earth, which rejoice at the conversion of a sinner, see the secrets of the heart. 1. Cor. 2.11. So likewise Angels which are ministering Spirits, Heb. 1.14. may understand by the signs and fruits of true repentance, the conversion of diverse sinners, and consequently, they may rejoice, without intuitive knowledge of the heart. Secondly, Our Saviour's words, Luk. 15.10. are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the conclusion of a Parable, which must not be strained beyond the true scope b Chrys. in Math. Hom. 48. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Origen. in Mat. c. 13. Salmeron. Tom 7. Tract. 3. In Parabola Haedorum & ovium iusti inducuntur dicentes, Domine quando te vidimus esurientem, etc. Non propteria haec dicuntur, quodiusti haecillo tempore verba dicturi sunt, etc. . But according to the exposition of sundry Fathers c Ambros. l. 7. in Luc. 〈◊〉. in Math. Can. 18. Ouis una, homo intelligendus est: & sub uno homine universitas sentienda est, sed in unius Adae errore, omne genus humanum aberravit: Ergo, nonaginta novem non errantes, multitudo Angelorum caelestium opinanda est, etc. Isiodor. li. Allegor. Homo habens centum 〈◊〉, & relictis illis, 〈◊〉 perditam quaerit, ac repertam humeris revehit, figuram Christi expressit, qui relictis millibus Angelorum in coelo, ovem quae perierat in Adam, ut bonus pastor, quaesitam in gentilcus reperit: atque crucis suae humeris ad Paradisum reportavit. Chrysolog. Ser. 168. , and some learned Papists d Caietan. sup. Luc. ca 15. Parobola, etc. Significat, ipsum jesum filium Dei, habentem centum oves (hoc est universos Electos) quarum una perdita natura humana est: Nonaginta vero novem dimissae in deserto, omnes sunt Electi Angeli, quibus deest ad perficiendum electorum numetum genus humanum. Desertum autem caelum est seperatum omnimo a nobis. Aduentus ad quaerendum ovem 〈◊〉, incarnatio est 〈◊〉 Dei. Impositio ovis in humero Redemptio est generis humani, in proprio corpore. Et quia sponte hoc fecit ideo gaudens describitur. Reditus domum Resurrectio & Assensio in caelum. Conuocatio amicorum & vicinorum, associatio est Angelica gaudens de reperatione humana. Titus Bostrens. in Luc. 15. Christus Deus noster accendit lucernam, hoc est suam ipsius carnem, mundumque quae domus illius est evertit, hoc est a peccatis expiavit, id est drachmam, quae Regiae quidem imagine insignita erat, verum perturbationum caeno poenitus obruta, quaesivit. Drachma autem inventa, gaudio plenus, convocavit caelestes virtutes, amat enim illas, conceptaeque laetitiae easdem participes, mysteriorumque oeconumiae suae participes 〈◊〉. : The hundred sheep, Vers. 4. represent the whole Body of the Elect, consisting of men and Angels: The ninety and nine sheep not lost, were the Angels, persisting in their prime integrity: The stray sheep, all mankind, sinning in Adam. To recover this lost sheep, the Son of God (that good Shepherd, john 10. 11.) was incarnate, and by the gracious work of Redemption, he laid the same on his shoulder. Now there is great joy in heaven before the celestial Angels, for this recovery and salvation of mankind. But if this exposition be admitted, no more can be inferred, but that the Court of heaven, and in the same, the holy Angels rejoice, because of man's Redemption. Neither is it consequent, the holy Angels rejoice, because of the conversion and reduction of mankind: Ergo, They know distinctly and perpetually the particular quality of every individual sinner's repentance. Lastly, If the said words, Luke 15. 10. be understood of sinners in particular, this Text yet falleth short to prove, that all the celestial Angels, perpetually, and at the very instant, know the particular true repentance of every sinner, individually: for the same may be understood according to this supposition or reflection, to wit, There is joy before the Angels of heaven, over one sinner which repenteth, when the repentance of this one sinner, is made known unto them: but it is not said, neither can it be inferred, That celestial Angels know constantly, and at all times, when each individual person repenteth truly. Our Adversaries therefore cannot ground an infallible Doctrine, touching Angelical science, upon a branch of a Parable (which according to themselves) admitteth diverse expositions, and the consequence whereof is not necessary, but contingent, and upon supposition. Jesuit. Saint Paul saith, We are made a spectacle unto God 1. Cor. 4. 9 and Angels, and he adjureth Timothy, by God and his Angels, which show that we live in the sight of Angels, and that they behold what we do, and hear what we say, even in our hearts. ANSWER. Saint Paul's words are, 1. Corinth. 4. 9 We are made a spectacle to the world, and to Angels, and men: Angelis laudantibus, & vituperantibus, hominibus laudantibus, & vituperantibus a Aug. sup. Psal. 38. , (saith Saint Augustine) To good Angels praising us, to evil Angels dispraising us, to good men commending us, and to wicked men condemning and deriding us. The Consequence of this Argument, We are a spectacle to Angels, therefore Angels understand and see our thoughts, is childish: for as Saint Paul was a spectacle to Angels, so he was a spectacle to good men, and bad men: and yet the jesuit will blush, to argue hence, Ergo, Good men and bad men behold the heart. Secondly, As Saint Paul saith, I testify before God and the Elect Angels: so Moses saith, I call this day, Heaven and Earth witnesses, Deuteron. 4. 26. & 32. 1. And Esay saith, Hear oh Heavens, and hearken oh Earth, Chap. 1. v. 2. Every creature therefore which God calleth to witness, or adjureth man by, is not a fearcher and beholder of the thoughts and affections of the heart. Jesuit. But as the same Scripture averreth, The Saints are like 1. Tim. 5. 21. Luk. 20. 36. Matth. 22. 30. Apoc. 21. 17. Aug. Ep. 112. unto the Angels, and equal unto the Angels, and in heaven the same is the measure of a man and of an Angel: Ergo, Knowledge of our Prayers is not to be denied unto glorious Saints, the fellows of Angels. ANSWER. Matth. 22. 30. Our Saviour saith, That in the Resurrection, neither shall they marry nor be married, but are as the Angels of God in heaven. Luke 20. 36. They which shall be counted worthy of that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor take wives, neither can they die any more, for they are equal to Angels, and are the children of God, seeing they are the sons of the Resurrection. In these words, First, The subject is, Just people, at the Resurrection. Secondly, Concerning these, our Saviour affirmeth, That they shall not marry, etc. Thirdly, They shall be as Angels, and equal to Angels. Fourthly, He expresseth, wherein they shall be so, to wit, first, in freedom from secular Actions and Passions: secondly, in glorious Adoption, or real Possession of all the privileges of the sons of God. Now I admire, what Papists can extort from hence a Jansen. Harm. 〈◊〉. ca 117. Sunt sicut Angeli Dei, etc. immortales scilicet, alimento & generatione non egentes, & ab omnibus hijs passionib' liberi, atquè beata vita fruentes, non autèm in omnib' sunt sicut Angeli Dei. Alph. Castro. lib. 3. c. Haer. V. Beatitudo. Verum haec authoritas (ut ingenuè fatear) solùm aequat homines Angelis in hoc, quod nullum matrimonij usum habebunt, sicut nec Angeli: non tamen ibidèm facit pares, quantum ad facialem visionem Dei. Respectu quarundam proprietatum beati, erunt Angelis aequales, non autem respecta officij Angelici. jansen. Ib. for invocation of Saints; for there is no connexion between this Antecedent and Consequent, to wit, Just men at the resurrection, shall live as Angels, remote from all the necessities of a worldly life, and they shall be as the Angels of God, free from material and corporeal passions, and equal to the Angels in fruition of blessedness. Ergo, the knowledge of our prayers which we make in this life, is not to be denied unto glorious Saints, the fellows of Angels. The place of the Revelations, chap. 21.17. is expounded by learned Papists three ways b Vieg. in Apoc. 21. Sect. 2. Duae sunt communiores expositiones una est, significari eadem mensura metiendam esse tam 〈◊〉 quam hominis beatitudinem, hoc est tàm Angelo quam homini iuxta magnitudinem 〈◊〉 & charitatis gloriam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homines 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gloriae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, siquidem succedunt in locum eorum qui cediderunt. . First, the beatitude of men and Angels shall be measured with the same model, to wit, according to the proportion of their grace & charity. Secondly, men shall attain the measure of Angelical glory, by succeeding into the place of them that fell. Thirdly, the hundred forty four cubits, mentioned in that place, were meated by a measure containing the length of a man, which was the meat-wand, or measure which the Angel held in his hand. And this latter exposition of the Text, is the literal sense, according to Alchasar c Alchasar. in Apoc. 21. v. 17. Hi centum 〈◊〉 quatuor cubiti, dimensi sunt humana mensura, quam Angelus, manu habebat. Ex quo elicitur, primò calamum illum quo Angelus hoc aedificium metiebatur, fuisse iustam humanae staturae mensuram. , Ribera d Ribera. in Apoc. 21. v. 17. Cubitus quo murum Angelus dimensus est, non alia mensura est, quam hominis, id est, quam ea qua homines uti solent metiendo, hac mensura humana usus Angelus nunc est, acsi dicat, mensura quae est Angeli, id est, qua usus est Angelus, est mensura hominis. , etc. But from none of these expositions, doth the jesuits Argugument conclude; not from the first, & the last, as is apparent to all men: neither yet from the second; for although the blessed Saints attain the measure of Angelical glory, and fill up the place which the declining Angels lost: Yet Angels may have some power and actions, in respect of their present ministry to the Church militant, which are diverse, and distinct from the power and actions of glorified Saints. For, if Angels themselves, although they are equal in essential beatitude, yet they differ in power and actions e Stella. in Luc. 20. Nèc omnes Angeli sunt eiusdem meriti, nec eiusdem gradus & gloriae, sed quidam maioris gloriae, & alij minoris. (according to the Tenet of the School f Aquin. p. 1. q. 106. ar. 2. ad. 1. ) then much more men and Angels, although they partake in the same obiective blessedness, yet they may have different actions, and accidental perfections, and consequently Angels, in regard of their office, may be able to know and understand that, which blessed Saints do not. Jesuit. Neither could Saints without knowledge of humane affairs be perfectly blessed, blessedness being a state wherein all just and reasonable desires of nature are satisfied with uttermost content. And who can think, that Saints full Psal. 16.15. Satiabor cum apparet gloria tua. both of glory and charity, do not earnestly desire to know such things as may concern their honour done upon earth, and the state of their friends and lovers, living in danger, to succour them by their intercessions, of whose salvation they be still solicitous, though secure of their own, as S. Cyprian. Serm. d. Mortal. Cyprian writes. ANSWER. The blessed Saints in Heaven, can desire that only, which is according to the will of God, Math. 6. 10. But that it pleaseth God, they shall desire to know and understand, all the particular actions and occurrents of people on earth, or that they shall desire to know, the honour which is done to them in the inferior world, must be believed as a matter of Faith when the Papals prove it by divine Revelation. And although, according to S. Cyprian, blessed Saints are solicitous a Cyprian. d. Mortal. n. 18. Magnus illic nos charorum numerus expectat, parentum, fratrum, filiorum, frequens nos & copiosa turba desidereat, iàm de sua immortalitate secura, & adhuc de nostra salute sollicita. of the Salvation of the Chucrh militant, yet it followeth not, Ergo they hear the petitions of the living: for a father dwelling in London, which hath his son at Constantinople, is solicitous of his son's safety, and yet he vnderstandeth not all the particulars about him. Jesuit. Wherefore our Doctrine, that Saints see our prayers, being delivered so constantly by the ancient Fathers, so conformable to the principles of Christian belief, about the blessedness of Saints, so consonant unto express passages of Scripture; we may easily expect, that unto Protestants it would not be displeasing, did they look on it with unpartial eyes, specially, they having no Text of Scripture, that may make so much show of direct opposition against it. ANSWER. Your insinuations are conjectural, and at the best, seemingly plausible, but your disputation is weak: wherefore we admire your confidence in a case so groundless, and entreat you either to argue more sound, or else to be less vainglorious in your conclusions. Jesuit. The place continually objected out of the Prophet Esay: Abraham knew us not, Israel was ignorant of us, thou Isa. 63.16. O Lord art our Father, thou our Redeemer, hath this sense, that Abraham and jacob when they did live upon earth, and carnally beget children, did not know particularly their posterities, and so could not bear them such particular affection; whereas God can and doth distinctly see, and know their necessities, and provides against them, delivering his children out of them: And therefore he is the only Father, the only Redeemer, Abraham and jacob not deserving the name of Father, in comparison with God: What makes this against the Saints hearing our prayers? ANSWER. We received our exposition of this place of Esay cap. 63.16. out of S. Augustine a Aug. li. d. cur. pro mort. ca 13. Tu es pater noster, quià Abraham nos nescivit, & Israel non cognovit nos. Si tanti Patriarchae quid erga populum ex his procreatum ageretur, ignoraverunt, etc. Dionys. Carthus. sup. Esa. 63. ar. 92. Aug. in lib. d. Cura pro mort. dicit, Quod nesciant quid in isto seculo fiat, vel quid filij agant. : and I marvel, why the jesuit rejecteth the same, and chooseth a worse, because his own party b Adam Sasboth. Com. Esa. 63. In tota Scriptura veteri nusquam invenimus, eorum à quoquam implorata suffragia: causa est quià ab humana 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & in tenebris sedentes, non percipiebant orationes & vota viventium, etc. Cornel. d. Lapid. Quinto Adamus appositè, Abraham inquit & jacob nesciunt nos, resque nostras quià sunt in obscuro limbo patrum, ubi 〈◊〉 luce & open Dei, quam nos, non ergo eos imploramus qui nostras res & aerumnas 〈◊〉, atquè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 habent ut sibi consulant, sibiquè liberationem ex inferno procurent, sed te Domine, qui solus potes jware & liberare tàm Abraham quam nos. Hac enim de causa in veteri Testamento non 〈◊〉, quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, aut Sanctos degentes in limbo. Bellarm. d. sanct. beat. lib. 1. c. 20. Quià tamen B. Aug. lib. d. Cur. pro mort c. 13. Exponit de cognitione propriè dicta, ideò responderi etiàm 〈◊〉 Abrahamum & 〈◊〉 & alios 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Testamenti non cognovisse posteros suos viventes, quià nondum beati erant, & naturalitèr mortui non sciunt quid viventes agunt. confesseth, that Abraham and the patriarchs living in the dark lake of Limbus, did not hear the prayers of their posterity, nor behold and understand the affairs of their children, living upon earth. Jesuit. Jesuit 3. The worship of Spirit and Truth, with outward prostration of the body, due unto Saints. THe third cause of their dislike is, That we give the honour of the Creator, unto the creature, honouring Saints with religious worship, with worship of Spirit and Truth, even to the prostrating of our bodies before them, whereby we give them honour, due to God only, and bring in many Gods as the Heathens do. To this Objection, made long ago by Faustus the Manichee, S. Austin answereth in Aug. contra Faustum li. 20. ca 21. these words, The Christian people doth celebrate with religious solemnity, the memories of Martyrs, to the end to stir up themselves to their imitation, and that they may be assisted with their prayers, and associated unto their merits, etc. but with the worship termed in Greek, Latria, and which the Latin language cannot express in one word, being a certain subjection, and servitude due properly to the Deity only, we do not honour any but only God, nor think that this honour ought to be given but only to him. These words of S. Augustine show the worship of Saints, to be on the one side more than civil, and on the other side less than divine: more than civil, as proceeding out of acknowledgement of the excellency Saints have, superior unto all natural; by which they be partakers of divine perfection, in that high degree, as no substance can by natureparticipate thereof; and therefore S. Austin with good reason, terms it religious, Less than divine, as proceeding from persuasion of excellency, though superhumane; yet infinitely inferior unto the increate and immense excellency of God, yea depending essentially thereof. So that honour is given them dependently of God, as being superexcellent participants of his perfection, and his singular friends. ANSWER. Our Argument is, All religious worship is due to God only: Papists yield to Saints some religious worship: Ergo, Papists yield to Saints some worship due to God only. The jesuit pretendeth to answer by distinction, out of St. Augustine a Aug. c. Faust. Manich. lib. 20. cap. 21. Populus Christianus memorias Martyrum Religiosa solennitate concelebrat & ad excitandam imitationem & ut meritis eorum consocietur, atque orationibus 〈◊〉, ita tamen ut nulli Martyrum, sed ipsi Deo Martyrum, 〈◊〉 in memorias Martyrum constituamus Altaria. , saying, That religious worship, is either simply Divine, and founded upon infinite and increate excellency, called Latria; or else superhumane, founded upon Grace and Glory, which is an excellency finite and created. Papists yield the latter kind of religious worship to blessed Saints and Angels, but not the former. To this Answer, Protestants reply, saying, That there are no other kinds of worship, than there be Tables of the Moral Law. But there are only two Tables of the Moral Law, the former whereof teacheth Divine Worship, and the second humane, civil, or of special observance b Aquin. 22. q. 102 ar. 1.2.3. Dulia est quaedam species obseruantiae. q. 103. ar. 3. . And if there be a mixed worship, partly Divine, and partly humane; so much thereof as is Divine, is proper to God, and may not be imparted to any Creature, Esay 42.8. But against this, they object, That to every kind and degree of excellency, there is a worship due, proportional to that excellency. But blessed Saints and Angels, have a special kind and degree of excellency, superior to theirs which live upon earth: Therefore a special honour, proportioned to their excellency, and superior to humane, is due unto them. It is answered, That granting in blessed Saints and Angels, an excellency of Grace, and Glory, and Honour, due in respect of the same: this proveth not, that they are to be adored with religious worship, for then holy persons upon earth may be worshipped with religious worship. But the virtue of Religion (according to the Tenet of the School) respecteth immedately increated excellency, and Latria, and Religion, are all one c Vasq. d. Ador. l. 1. Disp. 6. c. 1. n. 168 Cum Religio circa cultum Dei solum versetur, cultus & honour, qui proxime Sanctis defertur, adipsam non poterit referri, alioquin si esset Actus Religionis, Latriae quoque diceretur, Latria enim & Religio idem sunt. Ib. c. 4. n. 180. Religio quae est peculiaris virtus, non potest ipsis honorem 〈◊〉, quae solum increatam Dei excellentiam, non autem creatam proxime respicit. Ibid. Disp. 8. c. 2. n. 200. Cum proximus terminus cui exhibetur adoratio, sit excellentia, quam in se res habet, quamuis ad aliam referatur superiorem 〈◊〉 ex ea tamen cultus, & adorationis natura pensanda est, etiamsi propter 〈◊〉 tanquam remotum terminum exhibeatur. : and if Saints and Angels may be worshipped with religious worship, they may be served with the worship of Latria. And if they answer that worship of Saints is a material action of religion, this answer is confuted by the schoolmen themselves, who also affirm, that the worship of Saints, etc. is an act of Dulia a Bonav. 3. ar. 2 q. 4. Alius est modus adorandi creatorem, & alius adorandi creaturam, & alia ratio motiva, & ideo alia virtus directiva in hac & in illa. Aquin. 22. q. 103. ar. 3. 〈◊〉 est quaedam species obseruantiae, quia per obseruantiam honoramos quascunque personas, dignitate prae cellentes. Albert 3. Dist. 9 ar. 6. Richard. ib. ar. 3. q. 1. Palud. ib. q. 2. Suares. d. 〈◊〉, li. 2. c. 10. n. 8. Orationem quam ad sanctos 〈◊〉, non esse actum a virtute Religionis 〈◊〉 per se loquendo, sed a virtute Duliae, quam esse, distinctam a Religione, supra ostensum est. , and not of Religion or Latria. The place objected out of S. Augustin. c. Faust. Manich. li. 20. c. 2 1, is made to speak that (by the Adversary) which the holy father intendeth not: for he termeth not the honour exhibited by the true Church, to the persons of Martyrs, religious: but he saith only, Populus Christianus, memorias martyrum religiosa solemnitate concelebrat, Christian people celebrate the memorial of Martyrs, with religious solemnity. And then expounding himself in the progress of the chapter, he delivers two things: First, that Christians honour Martyrs, with the honour of love and society, as holy men of God are honoured in this life b Colimus Martyrs 〈◊〉 cultu dilectionis & societatis, quo & in 〈◊〉 vita, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dei homines. : But Saints in this life are not worshipped with vows, fastings, and religious prayer. Secondly, he distinguisheth between the solemnities or festivals of Martyrs, and the persons of Martyrs: upon the festivals Sacrificare 〈◊〉 sacrificare Deo, in memorijs Martyrum. of Martyrs religious service was performed to God, the Lord of Martyrs, but not to the persons of Martyrs: S. Augustine affirmeth not this latter. The total honour which the sacred Scripture, and after it, S. Augustine requires to be yielded to holy Saints, Martyrs, and Angels, respectively, may be reduced to four heads: First, the honour of love c Aug. c. Faust. Man. l. 20. c. 21. Colimus ergo Martyrs, eo cultu dilectionis & societatis, quo & in hac vita coluntur sancti homines Dei, quorum cor ad talem pro Euangelica veritate passionem, paratum esse , post incerta omnia superata, quanto etiam fidentiore laude praedicamus, iam in vita foeliciore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mista 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pugnantes. , and desire of society. Secondly, recognition and praises of their virtues and excellency: Thirdly, imitation of their virtues, and godly examples: Fourthly, reverend comportment to Angels, when they appeared, and were present as God's messengers. But none of these actions are the formal or elicitive actions of Religion: therefore the honour of Saints and Angels, (according to propriety of speech) is 〈◊〉 religious worship. Now than I subsume, no religious worship (properly taken) is due to Saints, by the confession of learned Papists d 〈◊〉. 22. q. 83. ar. , a quo quaerimus obtinere quod 〈◊〉, quia in hoc autem 〈◊〉 quos requirimus 〈◊〉, inter pellatores nostros 〈◊〉 Deum. . Invocation of Saints is religious worship properly taken. Rom. 10.14. Ergo, Invocation is not due to Saints. Jesuit. Now that men may worship Angels and Saints in this sort, with true affection of spirit, even to the prostration of their bodies, may be proved out of holy Scripture, supposing what is already showed, that they see our actions; for if Saints see our actions, we may as lawfully and as profitably bow, kneel, and prostrate our bodies unto them, as unto Saints living on earth. But it is lawful to honour living Saints with bowing, and kneeling, and prostration of body: as may be proved by many examples. Abdias an holy man adored Helias prostrate on the ground, not for 〈◊〉. Reg. 18. any humane excellency or respect, but because he was a Prophet, and a singular Saint of God. The children of the 〈◊〉. Reg. 2. Prophets, seeing signs of supernatural and divine power in Elizeus, coming unto him, adored him prostrate on the ground. The Shunamite woman her son being dead, went presently unto Elize us, fell down at his feet, suing 4. Reg. 4. not so much with words, as with tears and mournful complaints, for the resuscitation of her dead son. We read also that holy men have adored, with kneeling and prostration of their bodies, holy Angels appearing unto them; as Abraham, Lot, Balaam, josua. So that this adoration of Saints and Angels, with more than humane and natural Gen. 18. Gen. 19 Num. 22. joshua. 5. respect, and with acknowledgement of more than humane and natural perfections in them, is clearly deduceable from holy Scriptures. ANSWER. First, your supposal that Saints deceased, see and behold all our particular and singular actions, is in my praecedent answer refuted. Secondly, if they did understand our actions, it were not nenecessarie for us to worship them after your manner, because neither God himself, nor the blessed Saints require any such devotion a Athan. d. 〈◊〉. Christ. pag. 547. Si Discipuli 〈◊〉 Euangeliorum, 〈◊〉 loquamini contra Deum iniquitatem, sed per Scripturas incedite. Quod si diversa a Scriptures fabulati vultis, 〈◊〉 nobiscum concertatis, qui neque loqui neque audire 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 sit ab istis, Dicente domino. Quod si vos manseritis in sermone meo 〈◊〉 liberi 〈◊〉, Quae igitur est ista vestrae immodestiae vaerecordia, ut loquamini quae scripta non sunt. . Thirdly, your examples of Abdias and the Shunamite, prostrating themselves to Elyas and Elizeus, are not ad idem: for these Prophets were visibly and sensibly present to those persons; and on the contrary, the blessed Saints are absent from those which worship them upon earth; children kneel to their parents, and speak to them when they are present, but when they are absent, such actions cease. Fourthly, your examples of Abraham, Lot, Balaam, and josua, conclude not your angel-worship: for it is the common Tenet of the most learned Fathers, yea of many Pontificians a Thyreus. d. Apparit. visib. lib. 1. c 23 Nec paucorum, nec obscurorum, nec novorum hominum opinio est, etc. Euseb. Hist. li. 1. c. 2. Idem. d. Euan. demonstr. li. 1. cap. 5. Non is qui Abrahae innotuit Angelus, etc. Ambr. d. Abrah. li. 1. c. 5. Et. in Psal. 39 Orig. Sup. losh. ho. 6. Et. Hom. 1. Sup. Esa. 6. Tertul. c. lord. text. 114. Leo. Ep. 13. Concil. Sirmiens. apud Niceph li. 9 c. 31. Socrat. li. 1. c. 39 Sosomen. li. 4. c. 6. August. c. Adaman. Manic. Discip. c. 9 & in Conc. ad Catechum. advers. Paganos, etc. 〈◊〉. 15. Rupert. d. vict. verb. Dei. li. 6. ca 21. Chrys. in 〈◊〉. Hom.: 6. Theoph. in Act. 7. Cyril. Thesaur. li. 3. 〈◊〉. 1. Spiritu ergo ille Sancto ad veritatem Dogmatum ductus primo, Deum orat, ut pueros benedicat & simul etiam Angelum qui liberabat eum ex omnibus malis, ut per Deum patrem ipsum significaret, per 〈◊〉 autem verbum patris, non enim ignorabat quia nomen 〈◊〉 magni concilij Angelus est. 〈◊〉. d. vision. vet. Testam. vis. 6. Exod. ca 3. con 2. 〈◊〉. 1. Athanas. orat. 2. c. Arrian. pag 165. Christus fuit quem Abraham in Tabernaculo, & Moses in Rubo adoravit. , That the Angel which Abraham and joshua worshipped, was the second person of the Trinity. And the other Angels, Gen. 18. 2. and 19.1. Num. 22.31. were present in place, and did visibly and sensibly appear to Abraham and the rest; and upon that vision, they made outward obeisance to them, perceiving they were divine messengers. But did these or any other holy men, whose example is commended in holy Scripture, make outward obeisance, or offer prayers to Angels, when they were absent from them in heaven, or when they did not behold signs and evidences of their sensible apparition? Jesuit. Neither have Protestant's reason to stand against so many pregnant examples of Scriptures, upon the one example of the Angel in the Apocalypse, refusing to be adored of S. john, saying, See thou do it not, I am one of Apoc. 19 10. thy fellow servants, adore God: specially this place being explicated long ago by the Fathers, as not against the custom of Christian Saint-worship; for either the Angel so appeared, as S. john took him to be God, and would have adored him as God, whereof the adored was to be warned, as S. Augustine expoundeth; or rather the Angel Corrigendus erat adorator. Aug. q. 91. in Gen. forbade that worship, not as injurious unto God, but only as cumbersome to himself, which I declare by this example, Suppose that one praise a Preacher to his face for an excellent sermon he hath made, and the Preacher out of modesty saith, Praise not me, I am an unworthy instrument of divine wisdom, praise God the Author of all: This his speech doth not import that he thinks to commend a Preachers sermon to be Idolatry, and giving away the glory of God to a creature; but only that modesty makes him wish that men would not praise him, but rather turn all the praise and glory of that sermon upon God. In this sort the Angel seeing the great and glorious friend of jesus prostrated at his feet, requested him to rise up, not condemning that adoration as Idolatrous, but refusing it as an action, though in regard of the offerer pious and godly, yet to him the receiver cumbersome; which he would not without some unwillingness behold, in regard of the dignity of the person he saw prostrated before him. This is evidently gathered out of the sacred Text, seeing S. 〈◊〉 after this prohibition, did the second time offer the like honour to the same Angel, which he would never have done, had he not known adoration of Angels by mortal men to be pious Apoc. 22.8. and religious on their parts, howsoever the Angels sometimes for just respects may in modesty refuse it. ANSWER. It is said untruely, and without any colour, that Protestants stand against many pregnant examples of Scripture, etc. For the examples which are objected, do some of them belong to the person of Christ a justin. Martyr. Dialog. cum Trip. (Christus) Angelus siue nuntius vocatur, 〈◊〉 quod annuntiet mortalibus, quaecunque annuntiari eis vult universitatis fabricator, etc. Deum ipsum esse propheticus ibi sermo declarat. Ib. pag. 278. Magni Concilij Angelus, etc. Ib. pa. 280. Christus, qui Dominus & Deus! Dei filius est, qui virtute prius apparuerat ut vir, & Angelus. Idem. Apol. 2. pa. 〈◊〉. Epiphan. Haeres. 5. n. 5. 〈◊〉 Agust. 〈◊〉 Trin. li. 3. c. 9 propter annunciationem, paternae ac suae voluntatis a Proph. dictus est Angelus. (as hath been formerly showed,) and the worship given to other Angels, and to the holy Prophets, was only reverence and outward obeisance b Palud. 3. d. 9 , when they were present in place and person; and we deny not reverend comportment to holy Prophets and Angels, when they are personally and visibly present. But did the Church of the jews invocate Elias or Elizeus, in their public service, or did they offer any oblations to Angels when they were absent, or to their Images? or to any of the patriarchs or Prophets, or to their Images, after these persons were defunct? If you could produce pregnant examples of this kind, yea, so much as one example, than you might justly say, Neither have Protestants reason, etc. But you are, and will be as mute as a fish, in producing any one example to this purpose. From the example of the Angel refusing to be worshipped, Apoc. 19.10. & 22.8, 9 we argue in this manner: That which the Angel refused to admit when he was present, and came as an Ambassador of Christ, is not to be given to blessed Saints and Angels when they are absent. But the Angel refused a lesser degree of adoration, when he was present, and came as an Ambassador of Christ, than Papists yield to Angels and to blessed Saints being absent: Ergo, etc. The jesuit imagineth (but he proveth nothing) either that Saint john would have exhibited divine Adoration to the Angel, and for this reason his worship was refused, or that being modest and also fervent about his present employment, he esteemed such worship unmeet, to wit, at that present, rebus sic stantibus, and in regard of the extraordinary dignity of Saint john, who was so great and glorious a friend of God. The first solution is rejected by learned Papists themselves, Ribera a Ribera. in Apoc. 19 v. 10. De adorationis genere 〈◊〉 dubium esse debet quin ita adorare Iohannes voluerit ut Angelum adoraripar 〈◊〉, id est non ut creatorem, sed ut creaturam. Non enim ignorabat, aut soli Deo dandam esse adorationem Latriae, aut Angelum eum esse qui loquebatur, ut initio libri, & saepe postea dixit. , Alchasar b Alchasar. ibid. 〈◊〉 capite saltem 22. joannes 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉, Angelum non esse Christum: 〈◊〉 ipsemet Angelus ille antea 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 tuus sum, & fratrum tuorum. Cum igitur tunc joannes, rursus ad eum adorandum aggrediatur, argumento est, principio non eum adorare voluisse, quod Christum reputaret. Nec est cur johannem deceptum fuisse 〈◊〉, cum potius ex textu 〈◊〉 joannem agnovisse quisuam esset ille Angelus, ad cuius pedes procubuit: quip de 〈◊〉 sicut sibi 〈◊〉 fuerat locutus dicens esse Angelum magnae potestatis. c. 18. 1. , Salmeron c Salmeron. in Apoc. praelud. 7. pag. 367. , Viegas d Viegas. ibid. sect. 3. , Mendoza e Mendoza in li. 1. Reg. c. 2. num. 17. 〈◊〉. 19 Sect. 2. Ea adoratio non fuit ex 〈◊〉 genere quae soli Deo debetur. , etc. and it is apparent by the Text of the Revelation, that St. john knew it was an Angel which spoke to him, Apoc. 1.1. and Christ had many times revealed so much to him. The second Answer, The Angel in modesty, etc. hath nothing at all in the Text to warrant it, but is voluntarily feigned by the jesuit. First, Let him give us any the like example of such modesty, elsewhere in holy Scripture, used by any Angel. Secondly, His comparison, from a Preacher refusing to be praised, etc. is altogether unlike: for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adoration are actions of a diverse kind; the one may be refused in modesty by a Preacher, a wayfaring man, for fear of vainglory. But religious adoration is an undue service for any creature, and must be refused in right. Neither doth any man when he praiseth a Preacher, prostrate himself religiously. Also if religious Adoration, had been due to the Angel, why should he in modesty refuse it, because he was an immediate Ambassador of jesus Christ, and the admitting thereof would have been a leading case for posterity, to teach them their duty to Angels, if such duty had belonged to them. The third answer, The Angel refused adoration from St. john, because of the dignity of this great Apostle, is confuted by the Text, Apoc. 22.9. For the Angel yielding a reason of his refusal, assigns a cause, which argueth, that such adoration was not due to him, from any other servant of jesus Christ, saying, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. See thou do it not, for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the Prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this Book: worship God. Hence it is manifest, that if the Angel refused religious worship, because God alone is to be worshipped in this manner, and because he was the fellow servant a Franc. Sonnius. Demonstr. Relig. tr. 11. cap. 12. Apoc. 22. Cum johannes Apost. Velvet adorare Angelum, revelantem, sibi mysteria respondit Angelus, vide ne faeceris. Conferuus enim 〈◊〉 sum, etc. Ecce recusat Angelus adorationem johannis, co quod conseruus noster sit, habens eundem Deum, eundemque Christum communem nobiscum Dominum. of all just persons: then he refused not this worship, only because of the special dignity of St. john, but he would have refused the like worship from any other Christian, as well as he did from him. Saint Ambrose b Ambros. in Apoc. vis. 5. c. 19 Redemptio sanguinis Christi hoc 〈◊〉 contulit, ut filij Dei socijque Angelorum efficerentur, ideoque pertimescit Angelus adorari ab homine, qui super se adorabat hominem Deum. Quapropter conseruum se johannis, caeterorumque fidelium vocat. Greg. in 〈◊〉. ho. 8. Rupert. sup. Apoc. 19 Glossa. Haimo. ibid. Pannonius. Hugo Card. upon the Revelation, Chap. 19 saith, The Redemption of Christ's Blood, brought this to the faithful, that they should be made the sons of God, and companions of Angels: Therefore the Angel feared to be worshipped of a man, who worshipped one above him, which was God and man. To the like purpose also speaketh Ansbertus c Ansbert. sup. 〈◊〉. I. 8. Hinc certe agendae sunt gratiae Redemptori omnium, quia natura illa quae dudum Angelos adorabat, nec prohibetur, iam per eius adventum ab eyes & adorari renuitur, & in nullo inferior iudicatur: & ne hanc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lohanni crederemus, cum ei idem Angelus dixisset vide ne feceris conseruus tuus sum, statim 〈◊〉 ait, & fratrum tuorum habentium testimonium jesu. . The Spirit of God (no doubt) foresaw the errors which would spring up in future times a Epiph. haer. 59 & Graec. 79. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. , and therefore he left upon Record, this remarkable example in the Revelation, to manifest his will, and to be an antidotary against the superstitious worship of Saints and Angels. And let men cavil, and descant upon this Scripture as they please, It is evident from the same, that the Angel would admit no worship of himself: and he draweth man to the immediate worshipping of Christ b Cyprian. l. d. Bono. patient. readeth, jesum Dominum adora. , He doth not distinguish, saying, Worship me with religious worship, as God's friend: or, worship me, not as the prime fountain, and principal donor, or with Latria; but simply and without all distinction, he protesteth against this religious and sacred reverence, saying, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Yield thy worship to God: As for me, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, I am thy fellow servant, and a fellow servant, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, See thou do it not, let no other do it. Lastly, If our Adversaries will have us regard their distinctions, let them not (like spiders) spin them out of their own brains, but let them yield us any Text or example in the new Testament, wherein holy Angels c Salineron. praelud. 7. in Apoc. Cum Angeli olim eiusmodi honorem sibi ab hominibus exhibeti solitum acceptare consuevissent, etc. ex quo natura humana, per Christum Dei filium 〈◊〉 exaltara & consors Divinae naturae facta, caeperunt abstinere ab isto honore recipiendo. , or blessed Saints, or the blessed Virgin, living or defunct, did ever require or receive, or our Saviour, or any of his Apostles in their behalf, did ever appoint such religious worship to be yielded unto them, as Papists require. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. Praying unto Saints, not injurious unto God's mercy, but rather a commendation thereof. THe fourth cause why Protestants out of their zeal unto God, refuse to invocate Saints, is, the high conceit of God's mercy: for seeing he calleth all men immediately to himself, Come unto me all you that labour, Matth. 11. 18. and I will refresh you, We wrong his infinite goodness, in not approaching unto him by Prayer, without the intercession of Saints. This their zeal is not joined with science of the course of God's merciful providence, whose Divine wisdom prescribeth certain bounds, and as it were laws to the infinity of his mercies; which orders and prescripts whosoever doth neglect, and yet hopes to obtain favours, he doth not truly confide, but erroneously presume. God is infinitely merciful, and saith, Come to me all that labour; yet the man that should seek to him for the remission of sins, and would not submit himself to the Sacrament of water, should hope in vain, and to no purpose challenge him of his promise, Come to me all: wherefore it imports us very much to know, and to use those means of approaching unto God, that he hath appointed. Now, that the intercession of Saints is one means, without which God will not bestow many graces and favours (as well spiritual as temporal) Christian Tradition doth deliver unto us; which Tradition is suitable with the bountiful 1. Reg. 2. 30. Psal. 138.17. and noble disposition of God, which is not only to honour and glorify those that have been zealous of his honour, to the effusion of their blood, but also to make the world know and understand, that he doth honour them: for this knowledge, is both for his glory, and also for the good of men; that seeing how highly God honoureth his constant friends, they be provoked to endeavour by pure life to gain his favours. ANSWER. First, our doctrine and zeal are grounded upon divine revelation, for we are commanded to invocate God in the name of Christ, john 16.24. and our Saviour himself inviteth us, to approach with confidence, to the throne of his grace, joh. 14.13. & cap. 15.16. & cap. 16.23.24.26. Eph. 3.12. Heb. 4.16. He is rich in mercy, to such as call upon him, Eph. 2.4. and more compassionate, better able, and more willing to help us than any Saint or Angel, and he is appointed by God to be our intercessor, Rom. 8.34. Heb. 7.25. We read in the new Testament many examples of people which made supplication immediately unto Christ, but not of one which made intercession to the Virgin Marie, or to the blessed Saints or Angels. And the Fathers teach a Chrys. Hom. d. profect. Euang. Vis dicere, quod etiam per nos ipsos orantes, apud Deum plus efficimus, quam dum alij pro nobis orant: 〈◊〉 Cananaea, & ut accesserunt Discipuli dicunt dimitte eam, quià clamat post nos: & ad illos quidem dixit, Non sum missus nisi ad oves domus Israel, quando ipsamet accessit, & perseveravit clamans, Domini etiàm catelli edunt de mensa Dominorum, 〈◊〉 beneficium dedit, & ait fiat sicut tibi vis. Vides quomodo repulit quando alij 〈◊〉 ubi veto 〈◊〉 pro dono clamavit, annuit. Id. sup. Math. Hom. 53. , that we shall assuredly be heard, although no other prey for us, but ourselves, if we be devout, faithful, fervent, and perseurant, and conjoin good Works with our Prayers b Aug. in Psal. 43. Quam caeleritèr accipiuntur orationes benè operantium. Idem d. Temp. ser. 226. . Secondly, But the jesuit addeth, That by refusing to make intercession to Saints, we neglect a necessary means, which God hath appointed in his Church, for the applying of his graces and favour; and that invocation of Saints deceased, is such a means, he indeavoreth to prove by unwritten Tradition. I answer, Invocation of Saints is not grounded upon Apostolical Tradition. For the jesuit cannot prove (by the unanimous consent of the Fathers, abutting upon the Apostles age, or by any other sufficient testimony) that the Apostles preached or practised this Doctrine. And if he were able to produce many Fathers, maintaining invocation of Saints, yet he must remember, what one of the best learned of his own part teacheth us a Paulus Nazarius in 1. p. Tho. q. 113. ar. 2. Consensus Patrum in aliquam veritaté, non convincit eam esse Apostolicam Traditionem, nisi in eam ità consentiant, ut asserant eam esse Apostolicam Traditionem. : The consent of Fathers in any point (which they hold to be a verity) proveth not the same to be an Apostolical Tradition, unless they consent in such sort, that they affirm the same to be a Tradition. But our Adversaries are unable to produce the ancient Fathers, maintaining by unanimous consent, this Doctrine, as matter of Catholic Faith, or of necessary practice: and they are far more unable to make ostension b Peresius, d. Trad. p. 3. d. Cult. Sanct. Antè Cornelium martirem, nulla extat mentio (quod ego viderim) invocationis & intercessionis Sanctorum. In causa fortè fuit modestia & humilitas Apostolica. , that Ignatius, justin Martyr, Ireneus, Tertullian, Clemens Alexandrinus, S. Cyprian, or any other of the first three hundred years, did ever affirm, That invocation of Saints is an Apostolical Tradition. Tradition beginning in the holy Apostles, must descend by a perpetual current of all ages c Aug. c. Don li. 5. ca 26. Quod nos admonet, ut ad fontem recurramus, id est, ad Apostolicam Traditionem, & indè canalem in nostra tempora 〈◊〉, optimum est, & sine dubitatione faciendum, etc. Basil. Hom. 28. c. Sabel. & Arian. Tho. Wald. Doctr. fid. lib. 2. ca 19 Cassand. d. Offic. boni viri. Andrad. Def. Trid. fid. lib. 2. Quae totius antiquitatis consensu firmata sunt. . Invocation of Saints began not in the holy Apostles, neither is the same derived to our days, by a perpetual current, and unanimous consent, Ergo, The same is not grounded upon Apostolical Tradition. Jesuit. If revealed Doctrine, coming by succession of Bishops from the Apostles to us, will not alone win belief, even the Scriptures afford us sufficient testimony hereof. When Abimelech king of Gezara had offended God, by taking away from Abraham his wife Sara, and penitent of the fact (though committed but in ignorance) sought for pardon, did not God himself send him unto Abraham, saying, Cen. 20. v. 8. Restore his wife unto the man, for he is a Prophet, and he will pray for thee, and thou shalt live. By which example, we see, that God's infinite mercy, who saith, Come to me all, will not many times bestow favours and graces without intercession of his Saints, that men may know he loves and respects his friends. When he was offended against Eliphaz and his companions, did he not send them unto his fingularly beloved servant job, that he might be a Mediator for them? Ite ad seruum meum job 42. v. 8. job, & offerte holocaustum pro vobis, job autem seruus meus orabit pro vobis, faciem eius suscipiam, ut non vobis imputetur stultitia. Out of which place, two things are clearly gathered: First, that though God's mercy be infinite, yet many times he will not grant our prayers, but in such manner as he will make us beholding to his Saints: Secondly, that we ought to prostrate our prayers unto him, as with great confidence in his goodness, so likewise with a most feeling humble distrust of our own worthiness, which affection cannot but move us to seek the intercession of them we know to be most highly gracious in his favour; so that upon pretence of God's great mercy to reject the mediation of Saints, is zeal without science, devotion not throughly instructed about the laws and orders that God hath prescribed unto his measureless mercy, by his imcomprehenfible wisdom. Andif we grieve to humble ourselves unto Saints, and repine at God's providence, that he will not many times grant our supplications without honouring his Saints, and making us bound unto them, we may justly expect to hear what he said to one in like case, Friend I do thee not wrong; May Math. 20.15. I not dispense my mercies as I please? if I will bestow them in such sort, as to join together with thy good, the honour of my friends, Is thine eye evil because I am good, and courteous to them that have loved me more than their own life? ANSWER. First, If you had reueiled Doctrine coming from the Apostles by succession, the same would merit belief: but your present Doctrine of invocation of Saints, etc. is not reueiled by the holy Ghost, neither can the same be reduced to the Apostles a Peres. Ayala. d. Trad. p. 3. d. Cult. Sanct. pa. 140. Antè Cornelium Martirem, nulla extat mentio (quod ego viderim) invocationis, & intercessionis Sanctorum. Horant. lo. Cath. lib 3. ca 21. Sub Euangelio invocatio Sanctorum explicitè praecepta non est. . Secondly, Examples of Scripture, Gen. 20.17. job. 42.8. prove indeed, that when God himself by a precept appoints a means whereby sinners must seek his favour, the same means is necessary, or else the end cannot be obtained. But where hath God appointed invocation of Saints deceased to be such a means? Thirdly, Abimelech and jobs friends did not invocate Abraham or job, but at the most (which notwithstanding is not expressed in the Text, Gen. 20.7.17. job 42.8.9.) requested their prayers, and sacrifice to God for them, whiles these Prophets were conversant in the world, and were God's Ministers and Priests, appointed by him to make intercession for themselves and others, Heb. 6.1. It may be also, that herein they were figures of Christ b Glossa. Interlinear. sup. Gen. 12. 〈◊〉. sup. Gen. 18. Lauret. Sylu Allegor. ver. Abraham. . Whiles Priests and Prophets were living, and conversant with men on earth, God commanded his people to ask counsel of them, and to seek wisdom at their mouth, Malach. 2.8. and to entreat their prayers. But when Moses and Aron were deceased, did he then appoint his people to do the like, or did any man set up Altars or Temples, in honour of them, and repair unto the same, entreating to be taught by them, or to be holpen by their merits or prayers? The Argument therefore which the Adversary maketh, from the living to the dead c Bellar. d. sanct. Beat. li. 1. c. 19 Atquè hoc Argumentú Aduersarij nunquam soluere potuerunt. , is of no greater force than these which follow. Children may lawfully, and with success, crave food and raiment of their parents, whiles they be living. Ergo, Children may do the like, when their parents are defunct. A parishioner may request his Pastor, whiles he is living, to instruct him, or to absolve him. Ergo, he may pray to him, to instruct and absolve him when he is dead. When a man's office ceaseth, the actions of his office surcease: but when men depart this life, their office which they exercised in the world ceaseth, their actions therefore depending upon their office, do also cease. Now I subsume, to pray for people distinctly, and in particular, dependeth upon the calling and office of men whiles they are living, but when they are defunct, this calling and office ceaseth. Or if they deny this, let the Adversaries prove the contrary by divine Revelation: therefore although Abraham and job prayed for Abimelech, and Eliphas, etc. whilst Abraham and job lived, and although Abimelech and the rest must by God's Precept be holpen by their Prayers, yet it followeth not from hence, that the living ought to make intercession to the Saints deceased. Verily he that reads this Section of the jesuit, may well wonder and ask, Whether such discoursors ever believed or heard, that the Son of God was incarnate, that he is our Advocate, and that by him we have access to the Throne of grace, 〈◊〉 Or that the holy Ghost hath left a manifest and certain rule of Prayer in the Church; considering, that these men are so presumptuous, upon their own frivolous surmises, to prescribe a form of religious Invocation? Jesuit. Jesuit 5. Invocation to Saints, not an injury, but an honour to Christ the only Mediator. ANother show of piety pretended against Prayer unto Saints, is, that it seems to overthrow the Mediatorship of Christ, which S. Paul commends, as only, unus Mediator Dei & hominum Christus jesus. But 1. Tim. 2.3. in showing the inanity of this shadow, I shall not need to be long, seeing this respect would make us also neglect, and not use the mediation of living Saints, out of fear of disannulling the only Mediatorship of Christ. It is no more against the honour of the only Mediatorship of Christ, to pray unto Saints deceased, than unto Saints living: yea, the praying unto these kind of Saints, may seem more dishonourable, these being imprisoned in mortality, militant in dangers, and not wanting some blemishes and defects; whereas the other Saints are glorious, pure from any the least imaginable spot, settled in the consummation of ineffable bliss. But the Scripture allows, yea, commands Prayer Rom. 15. 30. job 42.8. unto living Saints, and consequently, praying unto them is not injurious unto the only Mediator Christ: Therefore the praying unto Saints deceased, that are in glory with God, is not injurious unto the only Mediatorship of Christ. ANSWER. Our argument which you term an empty shadow, will not so lightly be shaken as you imagine: for if Christ jesus alone, in the state of the new Testament, is the Mediator, both of redemption and intercession, than no Saint living or deceased is a Mediator, etc. But the first is true, because God hath constituted Christ to be a Mediator, and he hath appointed no other Saint, living or defunct to be so. Ergo Christ jesus alone in the state of the new Testament, is the Mediator of Redemption and Intercession. Then I subsume Papists make Saints deceased partial: Mediators, to wit, of Intercession a Bellar. d. Sane. Beat. 〈◊〉. c. 20. Postremo modo, etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mediatores, inter Deum & eos pro quibus orant. Neque est curtimeamus, nomen mediatoris transferre ad Sanctos, 〈◊〉 ad eos transferrimus nomen Aduocati & intercessoris, quae Christo 〈◊〉 Rom. 〈◊〉. & 1. joh. 2. Biel. in Can. 〈◊〉. lect. 30. K. Non ergo frustra imploramus Sanctos quos non ut Creatores gratiae sive Beatificatoresinuocamus, sed ut Mediatores, quorum meritis & intuitu nobis Deus 〈◊〉 quam ex nostris accipere sumus minus digni. Jdem. Ex quibus patit preces nostras spem que consequendae 〈◊〉 per mediatores Sanctos in coelo, inanes non esse: sed ordine a Deo instituto, nos ad eorum auxilia 〈◊〉 debere, 〈◊〉 debita veneratione eos semper implorare, ut saluemur 〈◊〉 meritis, atque votis. . Therefore they yield some part of Christ (the sole Mediator) his office unto Saints. The jesuit answereth, by distinction of Mediator, principal, and subordinate, or dependent, saying: That they appoint no Saints Medtatours of the first kind, but only of the second: And that this is no injury to Christ, or encroachment on his office, but an honour to him, and a means to apply, or make his Mediation effectual to us; and he useth certain Paralogismes to conclude this. First, the Scripture (saith he) allows, and commands prayer to living Saints, etc. but these are not injurious but honourable to Christ. It is answered, That unless the jesuit aequiuocate, the Scripture commandeth not invocation of living Saints, but only the requesting of their charity and prayers to God for men, Rom. 15.30. Eph. 6.19. Col. 4.3. 1. Thes. 5.25. Heb. 13.18. But the living are present and conversant with the living, they conjoin their common prayers, Vt deum quasi manufacta, praecationibus ambiant (saith Tertul. Apol. c. 39) That going to God hand in hand they may entreat him. Besides, invocation and prayer properly taken, praesuppose in them we pray unto, understanding the thoughts and motions of the heart: and all religious prayer is a mental action understood by him, whom men deprecate. But the living Saints understand not the secrets of each others hearts: Therefore, speaking properly, no man prayeth to living Saints. Also religious prayer is a Communication with God a Chrys. d. Orat. li. 1. Vere cum Dco confabulamur, quoties vacamus deprecationi. Si qui cum Caesare miscent sermons, etc. Multo minus fieri potest utqui Deum deprecantur, cum co familiariter colloquétes, etc. Aug. Psal. 85. Oratio tua locutio est ad Deum, etc. Chrys. in Genes. Ho. 30. Oratio Colloquium est cum Deo. , and a proper worship of God, and an action of Latria b Palud. 4. d. 15. q. 5. n. 4. Gabr. Can. Miss. lect. 61. I. Antonin. Sum. Mor. p. 4. Tit. 5. c. 8. §. 2. . Lastly, no precept, or example is extant in holy Scripture, proving that just persons did at any time pray to living Saints being absent, or to living Saints, by Collets, or set forms of public devotion, in such manner as Romists do to Saints deceased. As for petition or request (which is all the Scripture mentions) the same is only general and material in prayer: and therefore we cannot conclude affirmatively, saying, They made request to the Saints living, to assist them with their prayers. Ergo, they did invocate and make religious prayers to them, any more, than we may conclude, It is a living creature. Ergo, it is a man; It hath one act of prayer, Ergo, it is Prayer; It is a promise, therefore it is a vow, etc. If it be replied, The requesting of the living to pray for us, and their supplication according to this request, is not injurious to Christ's office, etc. Ergo, Our Invocation of Saints deceased, is no injury, etc. We answer: That as in humane and civil affairs, it is an injury to the supreme Magistrate for any of his Subjects to constitute a master of Requests, preferring their suits unto him without his authority: so likewise, it is an injury to Christ our Mediator, for us men which are worms of the earth, without warrant and Commission from God's word, to constitute Saints and Angels, Mediators of our prayers. And when the Lord of heaven hath given us an all-sufficient Advocate, and withal hath prescribed the means, by which we must have access unto this Mediator: is it not wicked presumption in man, to cancel this sacred ordinance, and to appoint other means of his own devising? S. Cyprian saith c Cypr. d. orat. Dom n. 1. Aliter orare quam docuit, non ignoratio sola sit, sed & culpa: quando ipse posuerit & dixerit, reijcitis mandatum Dei, ut traditionem vestram statuatis. : For men to pray otherwise than the Lord hath taught, is not only ignorance, but iniquity: for he hath said, Ye reject the Commandment of God, that you may establish your own tradition. And Tertullian d Tertul. d. orat. c. 12. quibus merito vanitas exprobranda est, siquidem sine ullius aut Dominici, aut Apostolici praecepti authoritate fiunt. , They are justly reproached with vanity, because (in prayer) they do this without any warrant from Christ or his Apostles. In the Court of heaven, he which appoints the supreme, appoints the subordinate; and as no creature may assume, so no creature may yield, either supreme or subordinate jurisdiction to any, in things of this nature, beside, or without Commison from the highest. Therefore the distinction of Mediators into supreme and secondary, founded upon man's own Invention, freeth not the Inventors from impiety against God and Christ, but is such, as if a mortal man should imagine subordinate Creators, Inspirators, yea, subordinate Gods: for the Apostle conjoineth these two as like, One God, one Mediator, etc. 1. Timoth. 2. 4, 5. Jesuit. I add, That to make Saints Mediators subordinate unto, and dependent of Christ, is to increase his glory. For first, If only Christ Jesus is worthy to have immediate access unto God, and all other Saints, Men, and Angels, be Mediators and Intercessors, not having access unto God, but by him; then certainly, that Saints mediate and intercede for us, is exceeding glorious unto Christ jesus. But Catholics teach, That Saints be such Intercessors, Heb. 7.25. as have no access unto God, but through Christ Jesus, by mediation of his Merit, Passion, and Death; there being no other Name in Heaven, or Earth, by which Act. 4.12. we are to be saved. Ergo, etc. ANSWER. In words, and outward pretext, you allow unto Saints subordinate Mediation only; but your practice showeth, that you make them principal a Cassand. Consult. d. Inuoc. Sanct. Homines non mali certos sibi sanctos tanquam Patronos & Turores delegerunt, in eorum 〈◊〉 atque Intercessione plusquam in Christi Merito fiduciam posuerunt, atque adeò unico illo Aduocationis Christi Officio obscurato Sanctos, atque imprimis Virginem Matrem in illius locum substituerunt: 〈◊〉 non defuerunt viri etiam celebres qui assererent, id quod Hester, Assuero, 〈◊〉 se petenti dimidium regni daturum in Maria completum esse in quam Deus 〈◊〉 sui, quod iudicio & misericordia constat, dimidium hoc est 〈◊〉 transtulerit, altera regni parte sibi 〈◊〉: hinc illi 〈◊〉 passim Virgini tributi Regina Coeli, 〈◊〉 est Mater misericordiae, vita spes nostra lux 〈◊〉 Aduocata & Mediatrix. 〈◊〉 etsi 〈◊〉 interpretationem admittant ca tamen non semper omnibus praesertim rudibus & imperitis 〈◊〉. Quid quod totum Psalterium sublato ubique Domini nomine in nomen Dominae commutatum legitur. Sedul. 〈 ◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Traject. cap. 1. Casta Virgo Dei, Genitrix Maria, etc. unica spes Patrum, 〈◊〉 Prophetarum, Praeconium Apostolorum, etc. Sub tua tutela & protectione toti sumus. Da verbum cordi quae mundo dedisti 〈◊〉, da quod piè institui foeliciter exequi. Idem, cap. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Virgo in te Angeli 〈◊〉, iusti gratiam, peccatores veniam invenerunt in aeternum Mentò in te 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 totius 〈◊〉, etc. Idem, cap. 21. Tu unica apud Deum Christianorum, spes nostra es 〈◊〉 & sanctissima; cui gloria & honour, decus atque imperium in sempiterna saecula saeculorum. Per te accessum habemus ad Filium, O benedicta 〈◊〉 gratiae, genetrix vitae Mater salutis: ut per te nos suscipiat qui per 〈◊〉 datus est nobis. tua culpam nostrae corruptionis: & humilitas Deo grata 〈◊〉 veniam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Charitas tua nostrorum cooperiat multitudinem peccatorum, & 〈◊〉 gloriosa foecunditatem nobis conferat Meritorum. Domina nostra, Mediatrix nostra, Aduocata nostra tuo Filio nos commenda, tuo Filio nos praesenta. Mediators (at least) to Christ a Corona. B. Virg. Mariae, c. 2. Sicut ergo Christus, est Mediator inter Deum & hominem, sic beata Virgo inter filium suum & hominem. Vnde in persona ipsius Salomon dixit Matri, 3. Reg. 2. Pete matter 〈◊〉 quod vis, neque enim fas est, etc. Item in Deuteronomio dicit Dominus, Ego percutiam & B. Virgo tanquam Mediatrix respondet, & ego sanabo. : and in your prayers to them, you say to them, Let your abundant Charity cover our sins, Let thy integrity excuse our corruption: Thou, 〈◊〉 B. Virgin, art the only hope of the Patriarches, the glory of the Prophets, the solemn cry of the Apostles, etc. And yet if your practice were according to your distinction, you were transgressors: for that which is given to another, without commission from Christ, is taken from him. And Subjects may as well fet up a Viceroy or subordinate King in a Commonwealth, as Christians appoint new Mediators, without Christ his Word. Also, when Christ himself hath prescribed the means whereby he will be honoured, and by which his people shall be saved, men's holy-seeming Inventions, repugnant or divers from these, are no honour to Christ, but an offence, Matth. 15.9. Lastly, when the holy Scripture teacheth us, that there is one Creator, and one Redeemer; it is impiety for man to honour any other, under the name of a subordinate Creator and Redeemer. So likewise, when the same Scripture teacheth but one Mediator of Intercession, it is impiety to honour Creatures under the name of secondary and subordinate Mediators of Intercession; because we have no Divine Authority to warrant us in the latter, more than in the former. For if our Adversaries say, that Divine Authority hath appointed the Saints living, and the glorified Saints, secondary Mediators of Intercession, they are unable to demonstrate this: for living Saints are only joint Suitors, and in craving mercy for their brethren, they do withal deprecate their own sins, and crave the same deliverance from punishments and calamities, etc. being still fellow-prisoners in the same Cottage of mortality and frailty. These and the like respects do so abate all suspicion of presumption, to dignify their prayers with any Mediatorship, that this can in no sort encroach upon Christ's Office. But in the glorified Saints, there are many personal eminencies of estate and degree in glory, which our rashness or weakness is over-prone to mis-imploy or mistake. And this, among other, may be a cause, why the wisdom of God sendeth us not to be suitors to the glorious Saints in Heaven, but commandeth us to crave the joint prayers of our brethren on Earth, which are still tossed in the same Sea of misery and infirmity with us. Jesuit. Whence I infer, That Protestants mistake our Doctrine, when they say we teach, That Saints are fellow Mediators with Christ, and that we bring them to supply the defect of his intercession, that otherwise would not be sufficient. This we do neither teach, nor believe, but that the merits of Christ are infinite, every drop of his precious Blood, able to pay the full ransom of a million of worlds: that the Saints mediate and intercede for us unto Christ, is for his greater glory, by whose merits they are made worthy of that dignity, and whom by their Intercessions they acknowledge to be the fountain of all good that comes unto mankind. ANSWER. If the Intercession of Christ, according to Divine Ordinance, is sufficient in itself, upon the lively Faith and Prayers of Saints militant, without our invocation of the Saints triumphant, to apply the benefit of his Passion to the faithful; and if Saints deceased are not appointed by the revealed word of Christ, to be secondary Mediators: then the Invocation of Saints deceased, is unlawful, and derogatory to Christ's Intercession. But the first is true: First, None of the faithful in the whole History of the New Testament, did invocate Saint Stephan or Saint james, or any other Saint deceased, that they might by these means, have the Passion or intercession of Christ applied unto them; and yet many of these, to wit, all faithful and just persons were saved. Secondly, Our Saviour himself, or his Apostles, ordained not any such means, either for procuring and applying of Christ's Intercession, or for the honouring of his Saints. And this argueth, both that the Invocation of Saints is a voluntary devotion, and also a virtual or interpretative derogation, from the Intercession of Christ, and from the other means, which he hath sanctified, and an undue means of honouring the Saints deceased. Jesuit. If it be a glory to a root of a tree, to have many boughs and branches laden with excellent fruit, the Saints being but branches of Christ jesus, the true Vinetree, surely the john 15.1, 5. honour of all their merits springs originally, and is referred finally unto him: and as it is impossible to honour and praise the boughs, without honouring and praising of the root: so likewise it is not possible that Catholics who acknowledge that Saints have all their grace, merit, and favour with God, from Christ jesus, should honour them, and pray unto them without honouring Christ, and without praying ever finally unto him. ANSWER. It is an honour to Christ the true Vine, to have many fruitful Branches, joh. 15.8. And when we honour the branches, in a lawful manner, we glorify Christ their root: but inordinate honour of Saints is repugnant, both to the honour of Christ himself, and of his Saints. Jesuit. Wherefore Saints pray for us, that God would forgive us our sins, grant us favours that help us towards eternal life, not for their merits, but for the merits of Christ. And when the Fathers in their Prayers allege unto God the merits of Saints, this is because their merits make them gracious in God's sight, and worthy that the graces they crave for us, be granted unto us; not by the application of their merits, but only through the application of the merits of Christ. Put case that a Prince should ransom a great multitude of his subjects taken prisoners, and held in miserable thraldom, paying for them a sufficient and abundant ransom, yet so that none should have the fruit of that Redemption, but those whom the King should singularly choose and make worthy of that favour. Suppose that some Noble man in the Court (whom his merits made gracious with the King) should by his interceding obtain, that the benefit of that ransom should be extended to some one whom he particularly affects: surely this Captive should be redeemed and delivered, through the ransom paid by the King, not by the merits of the Noble man interceding for him, whose merits concurred thereunto only remotely, and afar off. To apply this similitude, Christ jesus hath paid an abundant price for man's Redemption, yet none enjoy the benefit thereof, but they to whom by especial grace he applieth the same. Sinners beseech him by the merits of Saints, that made them gracious in his sight, that he will vouchsafe to apply the merit of his Passion unto them, for the obtaining of fanours conducing unto eternal life; Christ grants their Petition and request, and thereupon applies his merits unto them. These men cannot be properly said to be saved through the merits of Saints, but only through the merits of Christ, specially because even the merits of Saints that concurred thereunto, proceed originally from the merits of Christ. ANSWER. First, You are ignorant of the manner, and particular matter, of Saintly Intercession; and it is more than you can prove, that blessed Saints pray expressly and distinctly for the remission of men's particular sins. Secondly, Blessed Saints by their Intercession in heaven can merit nothing for themselves or others, for they are not in the state of meriting, but of possessing the full reward promised to their labours: neither can they apply their former merits to other men, because they themselves have reaped the full reward of them: and how can the merits of a creature being finite, and already requited beyond their desert and dignity, be imputed to others? Your similitude of a King, is nothing to the purpose, because the ground whereupon you build it is false: Kings grant favours and pardons, for the merits and entreaty of such as are gracious in their sight, but God bestoweth his graces and pardons, for the sole merit and intercession of Christ; and we are sufficiently qualified on our own part to receive his benefits, when we perform that which himself requireth, and use the means which he appointeth. But it is not yet proved, that Invocation of Saints is in the number of those means. Jesuit. Jesuit 6. How it is lawful to appropriate the obtaining of Graces and Cures unto Saints. Our Adversary's finding our invocation of Saints, for substance practised in God's Church, ever since the primative times, take exceptions at some circumstances thereof, which they think new, and not iustisiable by antiquity: which are principally three, whereon are grounded other three causes of Protestants dislike. ANSWER. IF invocation of Saints hath not been practised universally in God's Church, ever since the Apostles times, than the same is not Catholic a Vinc. Lir. c. Haer. c. 4. Quicquid non unus aut duo tantùm, sed omnes 〈◊〉 uno 〈◊〉 consensu, apertè, frequenter, perseverantèr, tenuisse, scripsisse, docuisse cognoverit. , or originally divine b Tertul. d. prescript. c. 21. Quod ecclesia ab Apostolis Apostoli à Christo, Christus à Deo suscepit. : therefore you trifle, and beg the question c Arist. Topic. lib. 8. ca 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , when you declaim, saying, Our Adversary's finding our invocation of Saints for substance practised in God's Church ever since the Primative times. First, you dare not say ever since the Apostles times, but you equivocate in the term of Primative. Secondly, you leave out Vniversally, for you cannot demonstrate, that the same was practised in all Churches, or maintained generally by the Fathers. Thirdly, you seek an evasion by a distinction of Substance, & Circumstance, and acquaint us not, what shall be of the one, and what of the other: public and private, freely, and of necessity, may be circumstances, yet they are such circumstances, as vary the state of the question: and Protestants dispute against your present doctrine, and manner of invocation, which hath neither ground in the Apostles doctrine, nor in the Tradition of the ancient Church. Jesuit. The first of these circumstances whereupon they ground the sixth reason of their dislike, is, that we distribute amongst Saints, offices of curing diseases, and seek some kind of favour of one, some of another; of which practice there is no example in Antiquity, yea it seems to resemble the levity of Heathenish superstition, who did multiply gods, according to the multitude of the things they thought to obtain of them. I answer, that to seek some favours by the intercession rather of one Saint than another, was the judgement of the Fathers in S. Austin's time, which he himself Aug. Epist. 137. did practise upon this occasion. In the town of Hippo, one of the family of S. Augustine, accused a Priest of an heinous crime, making his accusation good by oath, which the other did reject, in like manner purging himself by oath. The fact being open and scandalous, seeing (of necessity) the one of them was perjured, S. Augustine sent them both into Jtalie to the Shrine of S. Foelix at Nola, at whose relics perjured persons were usually discovered: In defence of which fact, he writes an Epistle to his people of Hippo, allowing of this proceeding to seek recourse rather to one Saint than another, wondering at the secret providence of God therein: Although saith he, men by experience see this to be true, yet who is able to discover the counsel of God, why in some place such miracles are done, in others they are not? For is not Africa stored with shrines of blessed Martyrs, and yet do we not know any such miracles to be done here by their intercessions? For seeing (as the Apostle saith) all Saints have not the gift of curing diseases, nor all the knowledge to discern Spirits: so likewise at the shrines of all Martyrs, these things are not done, because He will not have them every where done, who giveth to every one particular gifts, according to his pleasure. ANSWER. To impose offices upon Saints deceased, and to attribute cures, deliverances, opitulations, power, and actions to them, upon man's own imagination, and to persuade people which ought to seek unto God, Psal. 121.2. Esa. 8.17. 1. Sam. 17.37. to depend upon creatures in their perils and adversity (changing the names only) is Heathenish superstition. And what do Papists else in substance, when they make Saints (yea some perhaps, which are in Hell) particular regents a Biel. in Can. Miss. Lect. 32. Etiàm in Sanctis verum est illud Virgilianum, Non omnia possumus omnes. Non enim omnia omnibus data sunt, sed diversi diversa receperunt: ut quod scribit Gerson. d. Orat. & valour. eius. n. 77. lit. Y. Ad aliqué Sanctorum te convertas, pro necessitatibus quibuslibet sublevandis, vel pro impetranda speciali quadam gratia, qua sanct' vel sancta 〈◊〉 quoddam donum recepisse memoratur divisiones enìm gratiarum sunt, sicut tradit Apostolus, quod verum est, nedum de viatoribus; sed etiàm de beatis, sub quo 〈◊〉 canit Ecclesia de quolibet Sanctorum, non est inventus similis illi. Salmeron. tom. 15. disp. 7. in 1. 〈◊〉. 2. Sancti non opitulantur omnibus aequalitèr. Nàm sunt aliqui, qui in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, peculiaritèr opem ferunt, & 〈◊〉 etiàm quibus in hac vita ob accepta benificia, particulari ratione tenebantur. Hinc Hispani peculiaritèr colunt B. jacobum; Sebastianum, Lucitani; Romani, 〈◊〉 & Paulum; Florentini, johannem 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, Marcum; Senenses, B. 〈◊〉; Galli, Dionisium; Germani, Barbaram; 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Ib. Haec multiformis munerum distributio, partìm à Deo inspirata, partim 〈◊〉 est per 〈◊〉, partìm pijs coniecturis deprehensa, & praecipuè in illis rebus 〈◊〉, quas ipsi 〈◊〉 sunt. Ità invocamus Petrum in vinculis, Paulum in conuersione, utrunquè in periculis maris; johannem Bapt in nativitate; Euangelistam, in colenda Virginitate; Sebastianum & 〈◊〉, in peste depelienda; Antonium, in igne abercendo, & rebus amissis inveniendis, & similibus aliis plerisquè. of countries, cities, religious orders, yea of the elements, fire, water, etc. and of beasts, etc. when they appoint unto them distinctly, and by name, several opitulations: Apollonia, is for the tooth ache; Otilia, for bleared eyes; S. Rochus, for the pox; Erasmus, for the iliake passion; Blasius, for the quinsy; Petronella, for fevers; S. Wendeline, is for sheep and oxen; S. Antony, for hogs; S. Gertrudis, for mice and rats; S. Nicholas, is the patron of sailors; S. Clement, of bakers; S. George, of horsemen; S. Eulogius, of smiths; S. Luke, of painters; S. Cosmas, of physicians, etc. There is no doubt but that this base superstition was derived from the Pagans, (although it be now varnished and mantled by Papals, with the habit of devotion) for S. Augustine d. Civit. Dei, lib. 4. cap. 22. saith, That Varro maintained, it was profitable to know the power, and working of every god in particular, that men might be able to sue unto them, according to their several offices, for every distinct or particular benefit, lest otherwise they might ask water of Bacchus the god of wine, or wine of the Nymphs, goddesses of water. But our Adversary blusheth not to say, That the former doctrine and practice, is suitable to the judgement of the Fathers, and that S. Augustine maintained the same. First, I conceive, that by Fathers he understandeth the Trident Fathers; for could he have named ancient Fathers, no doubt we should have had them. As for the narration out of S. Augustine, Epist. 137. it falleth short of proving the question in hand. For no mention is made concerning invocation of S. Foelix the Martyr, nor of any vows or oblations presented to him. Neither was the discovery of the fact (mentioned in that Epistle) required to be made by the Martyr, but it was intended to be sought from God himself, at the sepulchre of the Martyr. Also, after the suspected persons returned from Nola, the matter hung still in suspense, and consequently nothing was effected about the discovery b Aug. Ep. 137. 〈◊〉 Presbiteri, proptereà non ausus sum de numero collegarum eius vel deprimere, vel delere, nè divinae potestati, sub cui' examine causa adhuc pendet, facere viderer iniuriam, si illius iudicium, 〈◊〉 vellem iudicio praevenire. . But if any special miracle had been wrought in those days, at the Martyrs' tomb, the same is to be ranked among things extraordinary, from which a Catholic, and perpetual doctrine or practice cannot be concluded: for one swallow maketh not a Summer, and from miraculous and extraordinary actions, one cannot infer a general and perpetual practice for all ages, as appear by the pool of Bethesda. joh. 5.4. and the river of jordan, King's ult. cap. 5.14. Jesuit. This being a Doctrine taught by the learnedest Father Christianity bred, by him grounded on Scripture, and on the unsearchable course of the divine providence, never censured nor condemned by any Father; we need not fear superstition in seeking some kind of favours and benefits by the peculiar intercession of certain Saints. ANSWER. S. Augustine hath nothing in the former place which maintaineth the seeking of special benefits and favours, by the peculiar intercession of certain Saints; he hath no word concerning the particular protection, patronage, government, offices, or deliverance wrought by Saints deceased a Gerhard. loc. to. 8. d. Mort. n. 353. Germania venerabatur Martinum, & Georgium Cataphractum, Hispania, jacobum; Gallia, Michaelem & Dionysium; Vngaria, Ludovicum; Polonia, Stanislaam; Moscovia, Nicholaum; Helvetia, Virginem Mariam in Nigricante Silua Eremitarum locum habentem; Anglia, Thomam & Gregorium; Scocia, Andream; Bohemia, Wenceslaum; Suecia, Brigittam, etc. Franci colebant Cilianum; Thuringi, Bonifacium; Hassi, Elizabetham; Misnici, Donatum, Bavari, Wolffgangum; Austriaci, Florianum; Carinthij, Rupertum, Borussi, Albertum; Pomerani, Othonem; Suevi, Conradum, etc. Magdeburgensi Episcopatui praefectus erat Mauritius; Halberstadensi, Stephanus; Saltzburgensi, Ruprechtus; Herbipolensi, Cilianus; Barmbergensi, Henricus, etc. Roma tutelares habuit patronos Petrum & Paul. Mediolanum, Ambrosium; Colonia, Agrippina tres Magos ursulam, & 11000. virgin. Augusta vindelicorum utricum; Lutetia, Genefivam; Argentoratum, Otiliam; Brunswiga, Autorem, etc. A Nautis invocabatur Nicolaus & Christopherus; à studiosis 〈◊〉 & Catherina; à pictoribus, Lucas; à 〈◊〉, Cosmas & Damianus; à jurisconsultis, Iuo; à Theologis, Augustinus & Thomas, ab equitibus Georgius; à Fabris, Eulogius; à Sutoribus, Crispinus; à Sartoribus, Gutmannus; à Figulis, Goarus; à Venatoribus, Eustachius; à 〈◊〉, Afra & Magdalena, etc. Contrà Grandinem invocabantur johannes & Paulus; contrà incendia ignis, Agatha & Florianus; contrà vitium corruptelam, Vrbanus; contrà Rubiginem, jodocus; contrà Bruchos, Magnus; contrà Pestem, Sebastianus & Rochus; contrà Febrem, Petronella; contrà venenum, johannes Euangelista, & Benedictus Abbas; contrà dentium dolores, Apolonia; contrà occulorum vitia, Otilia; contrà 〈◊〉 pudendorum, Appollinaris; contrà calculum, Liberius; contrà ignem sacrum, Antonius, etc. Contracti invocabant Wolffgangum; calculo laborantes, Liborium, Doemoniaci, Romanum; Epileptici, Valentinum; Captini, Leonardum; Puerperae, Margaretam, etc. Anserum, cura commendabatur, Gallo, Ouium, Wendelino; Equorum, Eulogio, Boum, Pelagio; Porcorum, Antonio; lgnis, Floriano, etc. (to which purpose you allege him;) and therefore the jesuit over-reacheth loudly, when he saith, This being a Doctrine taught by the learnedest Father which Christianity bred, being by him grounded on Scripture. Jesuit. Specially, seeing this was usual in the Church, in her most flourishing age. S. Lucy went on Pilgrimage unto the body of S. Agatha for help of her mother, putting peculiar confidence in her intercession, as being a Christian Virgin of her Country and profession. S. justina, a virgin, being by the devil tempted against virginal purity, fled to the most glorious of Virgins, Virginem Mariam rogavit, Greg. Naz. in S. Sipr. Paulinus Epist. ad Cytherium. ut periclitanti virgini opem feret, as S. Nazianzen writes. S. Martinian (as Paulinus records) having suffered shipwreck, called with peculiar devotion and trust upon Saint Paul, whose Epistles he did highly honour, remembering that the same Saint yet living, delivered threescore souls from the like peril, neither was his Petition frustrate. ANSWER. Your Argument, to wit, Saint Lucy, Saint justina, Saint Martinian, sought deliverance by Intercession of Saints, Ergo, This was Catholic Doctrine in the more flourishing age of the Church, hath two lame joints. First, The sequel is false, for neither was this age the most flourishing age a Chrysoft. in 1. Cor. Hom. 36. Coelum Ecclesia tunc fuit, spiritu cuncta administrante, cuncta Ecclesiae capita moderante, afflatu suo unumquenque corripiente. Nunc vero vestigia tantum rerum illarum tenemus, etc. Videtur Ecclesia hodie, mulieri quae veteri foelicitate exciderit similis. Quaeque symbola tantum foelicitatis illius referat, quaedam arcus & scrivia rerum praetiosissimarum adhuc seruans, thesauro destituto. , but far inferior to age's precedent: neither doth the particular practice of certain persons, make this devotion Catholic; because to the being of Catholic it is required, that the thing so denominate, be originally Apostolical, and universally practised in former ages, as well as in the latter b Vincent. Lir. c. Haer. cap. 39 Quicquid vel omnes vel plures, uno eodemque 〈◊〉 manifest, frequenter, perseveranter, etc. . Secondly, The Antecedent is not sufficiently proved, for no ancient Author is produced concerning Saint Lucy. And justina the Virgin, according to the Narration of Gregory Nazianzen, being in distress (as Susanna sometimes was) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. despairing of all other remedies she slieth to God, & then assumeth for her Patron and Protector, Christ jesus her spouse, and after this, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. she besought the Virgin Marie to succour her, being a distressed Virgin, First, she slieth to God. Secondly, she maketh Christ her Patron. Thirdly, she requesteth the Virgin Marie, (in zeal, rather than upon knowledge.) Fourthly, she is delivered, not by Pilgrimage to Saints, but by prayer and fasting, to God. And although Gregory Nazianzen (speaking only by hearsay) reporteth that she supplicated (not by any Collect, or set form of devotion, but by a short ejaculation) to the Virgin Marie, yet this was done by her in the last place, and after she had first sought to God and Christ; and her deliverance is wholly ascribed by Nazianzen a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to Christ, and in no sort to the Virgin Marie. Martinian being in danger of shipwreck, amazed and affrighted at the present peril, he took up Saint Paul's Epistles, and laid them to his breast, and Paulinus saith b Paul. in Carm ad Cither. to. 5. Biblioth. Col. pag. 225. Aiacentes pectori tanget suo Epistolas Apostoli. Hunc in pavore codicem, sed nesciens rebus relictis sumpserat. , That God by his grace did give this man to Saint Paul, whose Epistles and Doctrine he esteemed so highly, as that neglecting all other goods and stuff which were in the ship, he gathered up only Paul's Epistles. I find in this Poem (for the jesuit used other men's eyes when he cited Paulinus his Epistles to Cythereus) no pilgrimage or supplication made by Martinian to S. Paul, but a singular devotion to S. Paul's Epistles, and God's protection and favour towards him, for the love he bore the Apostle and his Doctrine, upon which, it pleased the Divine Majesty to bestow life and safety upon him, and to deliver him from peril, as he did those for whom Saint Paul prayed, Acts 27.24. But note here, Saint Paul's Epistles save a man from shirwracke, and yet in the Ocean of the Papacy, they must be the cause of many a man's shipwreck upon the rock of Inquisition. I marvel if the jesuit blushed not when he wrote this, well knowing what evil entertainment they give God's Book, that if it be but found in a ship, it is so far from saving a man (as it did Martinian in Paulinus) that it confiscateth the whole fraught to the Holy house. Jesuit. Notwithstanding we confess, That herein a discreet mediocrity is to be observed, and if any abuses be crept in amongst common people, we desire they should be reform; but so, that paring away the abuse, we take not away the substance of a pious Christian Custom. For we cannot expect that simple people in matter of Religion will not sometimes foolishly, and superstitiously mistake, which when Aug. li. de Moribus Eccles. c. 10. it happens, we must (as S. Augustine saith) Ignorantiam instruere pertinaciam deridere. ANSWER. Shameful and intolerable abuses are committed by Romists in this kind, and some learned Papists themselves a Cassand. Consult. 〈◊〉 mer. & Intercess. Sanct. pa. 970. Alter error est quod homines etiam non malicertos sibi Sanctos tanquam patronos, & tutores deligerunt, in eorum meritis atque intercessione, plus quam in Christi merito fidutiam posuerunt, atque adeo unico illo advocationis Christi officio obscurato, Sanctos 〈◊〉 inprimis virginem matrem, in illius locum substituerunt. Concil. Colon. Expl. Decal. 〈◊〉 fatemur pastorum dormitantium 〈◊〉, error in Ecclesiam, quo vulgus verae pietatis non satis intelligens, singulorum morborum curam singulis Sanctis assignavit. have desired reformation. But one may as soon make the Morions skin white, as cleanse this leprosy: and as in A dulterie, so in Idolatry, discreet moderation hath no place. Jesuit. Jesuit 7. Concerning Oblations made unto Saints. ANother circumstance whereupon Protestants ground the seventh cause of their dislike, is, our offering oblations unto Saints; which your Majesty doth object peculiarly as done to the blessed Virgin Mary. ANSWER. IN the old law as Sacrifices were offered to God only, Exod. 22.20. jud. 13.16.2. Chron. 34.25. so likewise oblations and vows, Deut. 23.21. Levit. 24.5.6. and as the Lord condemned people of Idolatry, for sacrificing to creatures, so the Israelites are reproved for burning incense to the brazen Serpent. 2. Kings 18.4. and to the queen of heaven. jerem. 44.25. This law in respect of the substance, is moral: and consequently obligeth Christian people, as well in case of Oblations, as of Sacrifices. Now by what authority and right the Roman Church can abrogate this law in whole or in part, and appropriating Sacrifices to God, make prayer, vows, Incense and oblations, common to God and Saints, our adversaries have not as yet made remonstrance, and the jesuit in this place allegeth no divine authority, to give his Majesty satisfaction, but produceth only an historical narration out of S. Augustine, and 〈◊〉, who report certain miracles wrought by God Almighty at the Sepulchers of Martyrs. Jesuit. I answer, if any Catholic should offer to the blessed mother of God by way of sacrifice, any the least thing, he were severely to be rebuked and better instructed: for sacrifice is a religious homage due to God only, in which respect the Nulli Martyrum sed ipsi deo Martyrum quamuis in memorias Martyrum constituimus altaria. Aug. c. Faust. li. 20. c. 21. sacrifice of the holy Eucharist is never offered unto any but unto God, in memory and honour of Saints: herein the Collyridians women Priests did err, who did sacrifice a wafer cake unto the blessed Virgin: which kind of worship under the title of adoration, S. Epiphanius reproves, Epiph. haer. 78. allowing the Catholic worship, as thereby terming her honourable, not for humane or civil, but for divine and supernatural respects. True it is, that in Catholic country's people offer unto Saints, lights, flowers, and chains, not as sacrifices, but as ornaments, to set forth their tombs and shrines, wherein they do not descent from antiquity, nor from God's holy will, who hath confirmed such devotions by miracle, as diverse Authors worthy of all credit relate, particularly S. Augustine, by Protestants allowed as the most faithful witness of antiquity. He tells that a woman stark blind, Aug. d. Civit. Dei. li. 22. c. 8. recovered her sight by laying to her eyes flowers, which had touched the shrine wherein were carried about the Relics of the most glorious Martyr S. Stephan. A more wonderful Aug. ibid. example in the same kind he relateth done upon an old man of good note, who being sick and ready to die, did yet very obstinately refuse to believe in Christ, and leave his Idolatry, although he was very earnestly moved thereunto by his children that were zealous Christians. His son in law despairing to prevail by persuasion, resolved to go and pray at the tomb of S. Stephan, and having performed his devotions, with burning affection, with many groans and 〈◊〉, being to depart, took with him some flowers that were on the shrine, and laid them secretly under his father in law his head, the night as he went to sleep. Behold, the next morning the old man awaking outof his sleep, cryeth out, desiring them to come to call the Bishop to baptise him; He had his desire, he was baptised: afterwards as long as he lived, he had this prayer in his mouth, Lord jesus receive my spirit; being altogether ignorant that that prayer was the last speech of S. Stephan, when he was stoned to death by the jews, which also were the last words of this happy old man, for not long after, pronouncing these words, be gave up his soul. Other oblations also Catholics use to offer unto Saints, not as sacrifices, but as memories and monuments of benefits received, as pictures of limbs, by Saints prayers miraculously cured, that therein they do not deflect from ancient Christian devotion; and that the Christian Church in her best times, used universally to make such oblations, Theodoret is a sufficient witness, who writing against the Gentiles, allegeth as a manifest sign of Christ's Godhead Theodor. d. Cur. Graecorum Affect. lib. 8. and omnipotency, that Idols being excluded, he brought in Martyrs to be honoured in their room, not superstitiously as Gods, but Religiously as divine men, invocating and beseeching them to be Intercessors for them unto God. And those that piously and faithfully pray, obtain what they desire, as testify the oblations which they (being thereunto bound by their vows) present in the Chapels of the Saints, as tokens of health recovered; for some hang up images of eyes, others of ears, others of hands, some made of gold, some of silver. Thus he. So general and so notorious even unto Infidels, was this Christian devotion. ANSWER. Touching the Collyridians, I answer, that notwithstanding there is some difference in the material act, between Romists and them, yet because Epiphanius condemneth not only external sacrifice, but all Oblation to the blessed virgin, and alloweth only, that honour, and not adoration a Epiphan. Haer. 59 Sive 79. Honoretur sane Maria, pater vero filius, & 〈◊〉 Sanctus adorentur. Mariam adorare nemo velit, etc. Quamuis Maria vel optima fuerit ac Sancta, & honore dignissima; non idcirco tamen adoratio ne prosequenda. , shall be yielded unto her; therefore Prayers, incense-offerings, and presents to Saints deceased, were held unlawful in this Father's days. Secondly, Saint Augustine de Civit. Dei, l. 22. c. 8. doth not mention any Prayers, Oblations, Vows, or donatives offered a Aug. Ib. visum est genero eius, ut 〈◊〉 ad memoriam Sancti Stephani, & illic pro ea quantum posset oraret, ut Deus illi daret mentem bonam, etc. to Saints and Martyrs; but he reporteth what miraculous cures were performed at the tombs of some Martyrs: now, because these things were extraordinary, and the credit of diverse of them dependeth upon fame (which is many times uncertain b Tertul. Apol. c. 7. Cur malum fama? Quia velox an quia plurimum mendax? quae ne tunc quidem cum veri aliquid adfert, sine mendatij vitio est, detrahens, 〈◊〉, de mutans, de veritate. , and St. Augustine himself saith, They are not commended unto us by such weighty authority, as that without all doubt, they must needs be credited c Aug. d. Ciu. Dei. lib. 22. cap. 8. Non tanta ea commendat 〈◊〉 ut sine difficultate vel dubitatione credantur. ) they cannot be sufficient grounds or foundations of Catholic Doctrine or Practice. Thirdly, Theoderit. d. cur. Graec. Affect. lib. 8. saith, We (Oh Atqui nos, O Graeci homines nec hostias Martiribus nec libamina ulla deferimus sed ut Sanctos homines deique amicissimos honoramus. Grecians) neither offer sacrifice to Martyrs, nor drink offerings, but honour them as holy men, and as the friends of God. And whereas he further saith, That some hang up the shapes of eyes, others of ears, etc. he meaneth that these were monuments of miraculous cures, wrought in those days extraordinarily by God at the Sepulchers of Martyrs: but he affirmeth not, that they Gratissime accipit eorum Dominus, qualiacunque sunt dona, etc. were oblations, offered to Martyrs. And yet the particular practice of some people in those days, whatsoever it was, if it have not ground in Divine Revelation, cannot raise an Article of Faith or necessary duty. Jesuit. Jesuit 8. The Roman Church set forms of Prayer, without cause misliked. FInally, Protestants dislike the circumstance of praying in a set form unto Saints, and that we appoint a particular office to the blessed Virgin Mary, which cannot be proved to have been used in the Primative Church. ANSWER. THe Romish set forms of Prayers to the Virgin Marie and other Saints deceased, are justly condemned by us, not merely because they are exercised in a set form (which is accidental) but in respect of the matter and substance of them, neither can our Adversaries demonstrate, that such Prayers, either in a set form, or by sudden inspiration, were used in the Primative Church; for the holy Apostles, which are the prime Fathers and founders of that Church, prescribed and practised no other form of Prayer, than such as was consonant to their Scriptures: and the Churches which succeeded them, for certain ages, continued in their Doctrine, and exercised the devotion of Prayer, according to the form appointed by them. And concerning latter times, our exception is the same, with our Saviour's, in another case, Math. 19.8. From the beginning it was not so: and we say with Saint Cyprian a Cypr. Epist. 74. Si ad divinae Traditionis caput & originem revertamur cessat error humanus, etc. Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiose prius & largiter profluebat subito deficiat nonne ad fontem pergitur ut illic defectionis ratio noscatur, etc. Quod & nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta divina servants, ut si in aliquo nutaverit & vaccillaverit veritas ad originem dominicam & Euangelicam & Apostolicam Traditionem 〈◊〉 & inde surgat actus nostri ratio unde & ordo & origo surrexit. , to all latter examples: If verity be changed, or lean a toside, we must look back, and return to Divine, evangelical, and Apostolic Tradition; and derive the order of our Action, from the original ground where it first began. And Tertullian saith b Tertul. d. virg. vel. c. 1. Hoc exigere veritatem cui nemo prescribere potest, non spatium temporum, non patrocinia personarum, non privilegium Regionum: Ex his enim fere consuetudo initium ab aliqua ignorantia vel simplicitate fortita in usum per successionem corroboratur & ita aduer. sus veritatem vindicatur. Sed Dominus noster Christus veritatem se, non consuetudinem 〈◊〉. Si semper Christus & prior omnibus aeque veritas sempiterna & antiqua res. , If a custom, proceeding from ignorance or simplicity, be confirmed by use of succession, and opposed against verity, we must observe, that neither space of time, nor privilege of persons, may prescribe against truth; for Christ is eternal, and before all, and in like sort, verity is most ancient. Jesuit. I answer, That the Primmar or Office (so termed) of our Lady, is not an Office properly and principally directed unto her, but an Office containing praises of God, taken out of holy Scripture, wherein commemoration of her is made, so as I dare say, That the Prayers of the Office of our Lady that are directed towards her, make not the hundred part thereof. And seeing it is most certain, that the Christian Church in her best times, did frequently pray unto Saints; what reason have we to think, that in her set form of Prayers she did not use to crave the intercessions of Saints? If it be lawful, pious, and profitable, when we pray unto God, to pray also to Saints, by their Mediation offering our Prayer to him, why should any dislike the doing of this in a set form, that is allowed by the Church? why should this displease rather than an extemporal form? But further we can prove, That the Church in her best times, did pray unto Saints in set forms, as Catholics now do, even with a kind of Lettanies, a form of Prayer acknowledged and confessed by the Magdeburgians, Mag. cent. 4. cap. 4 to have been in use even in the fourth age after Christ. In which age the four first general Counsels were held. ANSWER. You deny, that the Primar, or Office of our Lady, is an office, properly and principally directed to her, etc. But the reason whereupon you ground this denial, is slight; for although there is a mixture of Prayers and Praises to God, contained in this Office, yet the Virgin Marie is as directly and properly invocated therein, as God himself, or jesus Christ: beside, you have many Psalters and Primers of our Lady, and in some of them, the Virgin Marie is the most special Object and matter of the service. The Roman Breuiarie saith a In Octau. Assumpt. Lect. Ecce quibus. , In this day of solemnity and gladness, we call upon the sweet name of Marie. And to the Apostles b Breu. Rom. Hymno exultet jaud. , O ye, to whose command the health and infirmity of all is subject, heal all those that be sick in manners, restoring us to virtues. To Thomas Didimus c Portif. Sar. in Tho. Did. , O Thomas Didimus, by Christ, whom thou deservedst to touch, we beseech thee, with our loud sounding Prayers, to succour us wretches, that we be not damned with the wicked, in the coming of the Great judge. To the blessed Virgin d Lect. s. 〈◊〉. in seruit. B. Virg. Mar. , Wash away our offences, that we being redeemed by thee, may be able to obtain the seat of everlasting glory. Also e Rom. Breu. 3. Die infra octau. Assumpt. Virg. Mar. Lect. 4. jubilemus in arca Dom. , All hail holy Virgin, the medicine of all our sorrows, by whom death was expelled, and life brought in. The Roman Breuiarie teacheth us to pray f Breu. Rom. in Abdon & Senon. julij 30. , That the merits of the Saints, Abdon and Senon interceding, we may deserve to be delivered from all our necessities. And g Rom. Miss. in Leone. for Leo his merits interceding, absolve us from all sins. Also, By the sword of sorrow h Aur. Litan. which went thorough the Virgin's heart, and the compassion of tears which she shed under the Cross, have mercy on us. Also i Miss. sar. in memor. Prim. & Faelic. in. fest. junij. , Let the Host to be consecrate, be pleasing unto thee, by the celebrity of the Martyrs, Primus and Faelicianus, that by their glorious merits and Prayers, it may purge our sins, and reconcile to thee the Prayers of thy servants. The like superlative boldness was, in the enditing and publishing Bonaventures' Psalter, wherein God and Christ are sacrilegiously robbed, yea, blasphemously dishonoured, to embellish the Virgin Marie; yet all this the Church of Rome digesteth, permitteth, authoriseth, etc. In that Psalter, these and the like forms of Prayer are extant a Posseu. Apparat. verb. Bonaventura. Bulla. Sixti. 4. to. 2. Opusc. Bonau. Psalt. Bonauent. Miserere mei Domina, quae matter misericordiae numcuparis, & secundum viscera misericordiarum tuarum, munda me ab omnibus iniquitatibus meis. Essunde gratiam tuam super me, & solitam clementiam tuam ne subtrahas à me, quoniàm peccata mea confitebor tibi, & coram te me accuso de sceleribus meis, fructui ventris tui me reconcilia, & pacifica me ei qui me creavit. Domina in nomine tuo saluum me fac, & ab iniustitijs meis libera me, etc. Miserere mei Domina, miserere mei, quià paratum est cor meum, exquirere voluntatem tuam, etc. Eripe me de inimicis meis Domina mundi, exurge in occursum meum, Regina pietatis, etc. Deus misereatur nostri, & benedicat nobis per illam quae eum genuit, etc. Domina in adiutorium meum intend, & luce misericordiae tuae illustra mentem meam, etc. In te Domina speravi, non confundar in aeternum, in tua misericordia libera me, & eripe me, etc. Quam bonus Israel Deus his qui colunt matrem suam, & venerantur: ipsa est nempè solatium nostrum, in laboribus subventio optima, obtexit caligine animam meam hostis, in visceribus meis Domina lumen fac, omnis avertatur à me ira Dei per te, placa eum meritis & praecibus tuis. In iuditio pro me asiste coram eo, suscipe causam meam, & mea sis advocata. Domina venerunt gentes in haereditaté Dei, quas tu meritis tuis Christo confederasti, etc. Benedicta sis Domina, & matter Dei mei Israel, qui per te visitavit, & fecit redemptioné plebis suae, & erexit cornu Salutaris castitatis tuae, in domo Dauid pueri sui. Sicut locutus est per os Isaiae, & aliorum sanctorum Prophetaruneius, 〈◊〉 ex inimicis praesta, Virginum virgo, & de manu omnium qui nos oderunt pacem nobis tribue. Et fac misericordiam pro parentibus & nobis, ut memor sis testamenti omnipotents Dei, quod iuravit ad patres nostros Abraham, & semini eius in saecula. Sic sine timore de manu inimicorum nostrorum liberati, quiet seruiemus, illi in sanctitate & iustitia coram te, omnibus diebus nostris. Et tu Maria Propheta Dei vocaberis, quoniàm novisti quod respexit humilitatem ancillae suae, per quam dedit scientiam salutis plebis eius, in remissionem peccatorum, per viscera misericordiae multitudinis tuae. Visita nos stella matutina oriens ex alto. Illumina tenebras sedentium in umbra mortis, & eas luco dilectissimi filij tui digneris illustrare. Miserere misericordie matter nobis miseris peccatoribus, qui retro acta peccata poenitere negligimus, ac multa quotidiè poenitenda committimus. Quicunquè vult saluus esse, antè omnia opus est ut teneat de Mària firmam fidem, quam nisi quisquè integram inuiolatamquè seruaverit, absque dubio in 〈◊〉 peribit. Quam demùm ipse in Coelum assump 〈◊〉, & seder ad dextram filij, non cessans pro nobis filium exorare. Haec est Fides de Maria Virgin, quam 〈◊〉 quisquè fidelitèr, firmiterquè crediderit saluus esse non poterit. . Oh blessed Lady, my Saviour, I will put my confidence in thee, and I shall not need to fear. Oh blessed Lady, our Salvation is placed in thy hands, who thou pleasest shall be saved, and they shall perish eternally, from whom thou turnest away thy face. Blessed art thou my Lady, the mother of the God of Israel, who by thee hath visited, and sent redemption unto his people, and hath raised up the horn of Salvation, even thy chastity, in the house of David thy servant, etc. Thou o Marie shalt be called the Prophet of God, by thee hath he given the knowledge of Salvation for the remission of sins, by the bowels of the multitude of thy mercies, Visit us o thou day star arising from an high, Thou art the gate of Paradise, the ladder of Heaven, the Ark of Piety and Grace, the spring of Mercy, the Mediatrix of God and men. And in the same Psalter these words are found, Whosover will be saved, above all things, he must have steadfast Faith of the Virgin Marie, and the right Faith is (among other Articles) God assumed her (bodily) into Heaven, where she sits on the right hand of Christ, etc. Secondly, the jesuit proveth, that set forms of prayers to Saints are lawful by this Argument: If it be lawful to make intercessions to Saints, than it is lawful to perform this in a set form; But the first is true, for the Primitive Church did this, and the Magdeburgians confess, That a kind of Litany to Saints was used in Primitive times, Ergo, etc. I answer, That if by Primitive Church, be understood the Church Primitive, comprehending the Apostles, and their immediate successors, than the proof of the assumption is false; for that Primitive Church used no such devotion. And if by Primitive Church, be understood (extensive & exclusive) the Church after the three hundred years, invocation of Saints was not used by the whole Church for three hundred years more: neither can the practice of any Church (excluding the Apostles) produce doctrine of Faith, or of necessary duty. The Magdeburgians rehearse out of a counterfeit work, fathered upon Athanasius a Baron. Anno Christi 49. n. 19 Bellar. d. Scriptor. Eccles. in Athanasio. Magdeb. Centur. 4. cap. 4. pa. 396. & 397. , a set prayer used to the Virgin Marie; but they add, apparet multa esse depravata & supposita in istorum doctorum scriptis, It is apparent that many things depraved and supposititious are found among the writings of these Doctors. Jesuit. But they will perchance say, that they do not so much dislike set forms of prayer unto Saints, as some phrases and speeches in our praying books, that seem to give too much unto creatures; as our calling the blessed Virgin, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, saying to her, Lady protect us from the Devil, receive us in the hour of death, give light to the blind, pardon the guilty, remove from us all evil, etc. A answer, These speeches cannot justly be disliked, because they are understood in a pious sense, known to a Catholic, a sense obvious and plain, according to the phrase of Scripture, and which the words may well bear, even according to the common custom of speech. The nature of things being various, and the answerable conceits of men copious, but words to express such conceits scant, and in great paucity, Necessity doth enforce to use words applicable to diverse senses: For example, one man may deliver another from death, either by authority, pardoning him as do Kings; or by justice defending him, as do Advocates; by force taking him out of his enemy's hands, as do Soldiers; or paying his ransom to them that keep him captive, as Almoners; finally, by begging his life of them that have power to take it away, as Intercessors. These be very different ways of relief, yet have we but one word to express them all, to wit, to save a man's life; which therefore is to be understood, according to the subject it is applied: and if men want understanding, or will, to take our words, according to the matter they are applied unto, there can never want cavils, unless we either speak not at all, or when we speak, ever use long circumlocutions, which were ridiculous, and in verse impossible, the meeter not permitting it. And yet the aforesaid misliked phrases in the office of the blessed virgin, are taken out of the hymns and verses thereof. If they that by begging obtain of the King the life of one condemned to death, may be, and are commonly said to save his life, though they saved him by intercession, not by their proper authority, Why may not Saints be said to give us the things which by their prayers they obtain for us? Why may not the Church speak in hymns and in verse, as the learnedest Fathers speak even in prose, never imagining that any would mistake their meaning. ANSWER. We condemn the very substance of your prayers, in this kind, and not only some phrases, etc. For what Prophet, or what Apostle, or Evangelist, did ever teach God's people to pray in this manner? And whereas some forms of your prayers to Saints, being understood according to the sound of words, are blasphemous a Read sundry forms of such prayers in Chemn. Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 3. pa. 145. Herbrand. c. Greg. Val. d. multipl. Papat. Idolom. Gerhard. loc. come. to. 8. d. Inuoc. Sanct. , you labour to qualify this by a favourable exposition, pretending that you say one thing, and mean another, and that herein you vary not from the Scripture. You call the blessed Virgin, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, Queen of Heaven, etc. you say, that all power is given her in heaven and in earth b Bernerdin. d. Senis. apud Benzon. in magnif. li. 1. cap. 18. Data est tibi ô Domina, omnis potestas in 〈◊〉 & in terra, ut quicquid volueris, valeas efficere. , and because she outlived her son, she was by natural right heir of all the world c Benzon. in Cant. Magnif. lib. 1. cap. 18. Sed iure haereditario mundi Monarchiam acquisivisse, tempore mortis Christi filij eius iam demonstrandum est, etc. Nullus alius in terris fuit, qui de iure in 〈◊〉 haereditate succederet Christo. Ius naturale postulat, dictanteratione, ut matter, sicut 〈◊〉 in filium habet, ità quoquè habeat in 〈◊〉 quae sunt filij. . Yea some of you go further, teaching that as Christ redeemed mankind by his flesh and blood, so she redeemed the same with her soul a Coron. Mar. 7. Stel. 2. Coronae. lustus quiliber tradere cor suum ad vigilandum 〈◊〉 ad Dominam mundi, per quam redemptus est & reconciliatus. Stellar. Coron. B. Mar. lib. 12. pa. 1. ar. 2. Christus carnem pro nobis & sanguinem, Maria imolabat animam. , and that all grace and glory coming from Christ the head, passeth to the Church, by the Virgin Marie, as by the neck b Benzon. in Cant. Magnif. lib. 1. ca 18. Christus cum sit caput, per collum, id est, Mariam effundit in fideles benignitatem suam, Maria vero recipiens à Christo gratias, nobis liberahtèr, & benignè communicate. , and she as his mother, hath all right, authority, and dispensation of his mercy c Ib. Ipsa tanquam eius matter, ius, authoritatem, & dispensationem illius 〈◊〉, constituit enim illam Dominus Dominam domus suae, & principem omnis possessionis suae. Bernerdin. d. Bust. Mar. p. 1. Serm. 5. d. concep. Mar. B. Virgo est Domina, & Imperatrix totius or bis, & omnium creaturarum. Primo namquè est Regina Coeli & Angelorum, etc. Dominatur quoquè inferno, dominatur etiam mundo, & hominibus habitantibus in eo. Jbid. p. 3. d. Nom. Mar. 4. Excel. Si ergo imperat filio, ratione maternalis iurisdictionis, qui fuit 〈◊〉 illi ut habetur, Luc. 2. Multo magis imperat omnibus creaturis filio subiectis. . This lying doctrine is coloured with certain distinctions, and forced instances of holy Scripture, which notwithstanding agree to the present question like Harp and Harrow. Men indeed which are instruments of preserving life, and saving others, may be said in largeness of speech, to give life, or to be saviours, jud. 3. v. 9 & 15. But the blessed Virgin, and Saints deceased, since their departure, are not by any new actions, instruments of spiritual life, nor bestowers of grace and salvation upon the living. And when the Prophets and Apostles exercised their office and ministry upon earth, Who ever styled them Saviour's, or prayed unto them with such a conceit, or by using such titles? They themselves gave all glory to God, and Christ; and instructed the Church to do the like. The Virgin Marie was never styled a Redeemer, Mediator, or Saviour, by the holy Ghost, but she saith in her thanksgiving, My spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour. Some names are common, and sometimes that which was common or typically given to certain persons in the old Testament, is appropriated in the new, as we observe in the names of Saviour, jesus, Redeemer, Mediator, High Priest, and the like. Sometimes the effect of the principal cause is attributed to the instrumental: but in all these, Regulam habemus praeter quam loqui fas non est, We have a rule beside which we may not speak. And we are not so straighted for words, that we must of necessity apply or communicate the titles of Christ unto the creatures. Now to that which you add by way of excuse, for your improper or abusive speaking, (saying, in verse impossible, the meeter not permitting.) I answer, What an impudent and ridiculous plaster is this? will not verse permit us to implore benefits, only at God's hand by Christ? or will not the measure and number of poetical feet, without pinching in the stocks, be applied to direct and evident compellation of Saints to pray for us, without craving the benefits we desire, at their own hands? Nay, who so readeth the Papistical poetical Church hymns, shall in the most of them find versing laws most broken, where the laws of invocation are most transgressed. A reasonable Poet in less than a week's work, would make so many hymns in exact verse, and yet without ridiculous circumlocutions express that, which might better beseem the triumphant Church to hear from the militant. But that is verified in you, which Arnobius said of the Gentiles a L. 6. c. Gent. pa. 193. , Quod semel sinè ratione fecistis, nè videamini aliquando nescisse, defenditis, meliusquè putatis non vinci, quam confessae cedere atquè annuere veritati, That which you have once done unreasonably, you will still persist in defending, lest you should seem to have been ignorant; and you rather desire to have it appear you are not overcome, than to submit yourselves to evident truth. Jesuit. Saint Gregory Nazianzen (for his excellent learning, Nazian. Or. 18. d. laudib. Cypr. termed by the Grecians, The Divine) thus prayeth unto Saint Cyprian: Look down on us from heaven with a propitious eye, guide our words and ways, feed this holy flock, govern it with us, dispose some of them as far as is possible, to better state, cast out importune and troublesome wolves, that cavil, and catch at syllables, vouchsafe us the perfect and clear splendour of the blessed Trinity, with whom thou art already present. ANSWER. That Gregory Nazianzen prayed unto Saint Cyprian, is more than you can prove; he useth indeed an Oratoriall Apostrophe, but yourselves make a difference between a Prosopopeia or Apostrophe, and Prayer: you say, you make an Apostrophe to the Cross, when you use this Hymn, All hail oh Cross, etc. And I think, you will not grant that the wooden Cross heareth you: So by your own Gloss, b 〈◊〉. d. Imag. ca 24. Suar. in 3. Tho. tom. 1. Disp. 54. Sect. 4. Si interdum oratio videtur fundi ad imaginem, ut 〈◊〉 dicit O crux, ave spes unica, ange pijs iustitiam, etc. per Tropum & Prosopopeiam explicanda est. Sixt. Senens. Biblioth. lib. 6. annot. 151. 〈◊〉 monuimus non esse 〈◊〉 verba semper 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accipienda quo primum ad aures auditorum perveniunt, multa enim 〈◊〉 per hyperbolem 〈◊〉 enunciant & inculcant, vel occasione locorum temporum ac personarum adducti velaffectuum impetu & orationis cursu rapti. , Nazianzen, might by an Apostrophe speak to Cyprian, not thinking, or at least, not being assured that he heard him. Sixtus Senensis delivereth this observation concerning the Fathers, That in their Sermons we may not take their words strictly, and in rigour, because they many times break out into declamations, and enunciate and inculcate matters, by Hyperboles, and other figurative speeches. We find in Lipoman, one speaking to the girdle of the blessed Virgin in this manner: O veneranda zona, fac nos haeredes aeternae & Beatae vitae, & hanc nostram vitam ab interitu conserua. Tuam haereditatem, tuum populum, O intemerata zona intemeratum conserua, o venerable girdle, make us heirs of eternal and blessed life, and preserve this our present life, from perdition; o undefiled girdle preserve thy people from pollution. If our Adversaries will have this speech to be figurative, they have more reason to grant the same touching Nazianzen, of whom it is certain, that he doubted a Greg. Naz. orat. 〈◊〉. in Laud. Gorgon. Si hoc praemij sanctis animis divinitus contingit, ut ista sentiant, nostram quoque orationem, etc. Idem. orat. 1. c. julian. Audi haec etiam Constantij 〈◊〉, si quis 〈◊〉 sensus est, etc. Ib. 〈◊〉 provehor, ut tecum 〈◊〉 cum presente atque audiente expostulem, etc. whether the B. Saints hear all our prayers or not. Jesuit. And not only Fathers, but also Scriptures speak of Saints in the same sort, our Saviour saying, Make to yourselves friends of the riches of iniquity, that when you die, 〈◊〉. 16.9. they may receive you into the eternal Tabernacles. If then the Saints of God, by the mouth of verity itself, be said to receive their friends when they die, into the eternal Tabernacles, because God moved by their prayers, admits them into the blissful vision of his essence, Why may not the Church and her children crave the blessed Virgin's intercession, in these words, Mother of mercy, receive us in the hour of death? And seeing God is termed in Scripture, Psal. 58. 18. Mercy, Why should not she be styled Mother of Mercy, that is undoubtedly Mother of God, especially seeing, that in, and of her, the Author of mercy and grace was conceived and borne, and she filled with grace and charity above all other Creatures? ANSWER. Our Saviour speaketh not of blessed Saints, but of indigent people, to whom men distribute their alms, and these are said to receive their benefactors into heaven, because they are the object of charity, and beneficence, for which Christ receiveth merciful persons into heaven a jansen. Harm. Euang. ca 〈◊〉. Dicuntur autem illi recepturi Benefactores in coelum, simpliciterquidem quia propter illos Christus 〈◊〉 benefactores recepturus est, quia sibi imputat factum, quod illis impenditur. Qualescumque 〈◊〉 & quanquam non ipsimet ingrediantur aeternas mansiones, dicuntur rectè benefactores suos recipere in coelum, ob rationem prius dictam, quia propter beneficia eis impensa, Christus illos recipit in coelum. . Math. 25.35. But was any man's understanding so poor and beggarly, as therefore at any time to invocate beggars? b Hugo. Card. in Luc. 16.9. Recipiant vos pauperes, id est, sint causa vel occasio, quare recipiamini. and in giving alms to use this form of prayer, Oh blessed Mendicants receive our alms, and receive us your benefactors into heaven c Dyonis. Carthus. sup. Luc. 16. Recipiant vos praefati amici, scilicet Deus & angli ac pauperes sancti. . Also some expositors refer the former saying, to God and the Angels, which receive charitable persons when they decease into the state of blessedness. Neither do Romists when they style the blessed Virgin, Mother of mercy, and pray unto her to receive them at the hour of death, understand these words 〈◊〉, but properly, for they hold that she is a Mother of mercy d Benzon. come. & disp in Magnis. li. 1. c. 18. Ipsa tanquam eius matter, ius, authoritatem, & 〈◊〉 illius obtinet: constituit enim illam Dominus, Dominam, domus suae, & principem omnis possessionis suae. Bernardin. Marial. d Nominat. Mar. Ser. 5. Praerog. 1. B. Virgo proprie misericordiae est Regina. , not only by way of Intercession, but of distribution and dispensation: and she receiveth souls into heaven by her office and authority. This is affirmed by Rutilius Benzonius, a modern Roman in his Commentary upon the Magnificat. And Stellarium, Coronae Mariae saith e Stel. Cor. B. Virg Mar. li. 12. ar. 3. Beata virgo emit nos, & possedit, dando pretiosissimum Thesaurum pro nobis scilicet corpus sanguinem & animas filij sui. , She hath this right, because she hath bought us with a Price. And Viegas the jesuit citeth Arnoldus Carnotensis f Arnold. Carno. to. 6. Biblioth. Vieg. in Apoc. 12. Com. 2. Sect. 2. Constituta est super omnem creaturam, & quicunque jesu curuat genu, matri quoque pronus supplicat: & filij gloriam, cum matre, non tam communem iudico, quam eandem. 〈◊〉 Deo remanente, cessit quodammodo misericordiam Dei matri, Sponsaeque regnanti. Itaque virginemdivisum habere cum Deo imperium. , saying, She is placed over all creatures, and her glory is not only common, but the very same with her sons. And Viegas applieth the words of Ecclesiasticus to her, In me is the grace of all life and verity, in me is all hope of life and virtue. Paulus Cararia g Carar. Sum. Canon. & Moral. Reg. 1. n. 3. punct. 5. n. 32. Quae haec quaeso preparatio? certe nulla alia, nisi quod transeant per manus illius, nam qui 〈◊〉 nobis dedit per virginem, nostra vult illa mediatrice acciperc. Brigit. Reu. li. 1. ca 50. Sicut calor procedit a sole, sic per 〈◊〉 omnis misericordia dabitur. Tu enim es quasi fons largissimus, de quo misericordia de miseris fluit. Biel. in Can. 〈◊〉. lect. 32. Nihil nos Deus habere voluit, quod per manus Mariae non transiret. Osor. Conc. to. 〈◊〉. in visit Mariae. Maria ex quo Dei matter effecta est, universi curam suscepit, tanquam omnium matter, tanquam membra 〈◊〉 filij sui homines curate, tanquam haereditatem filij & illius domum. Foelix profecto hominum sors, quibus Christus pater, & Maria matter est, tanquam Aquila super pullos suos, tanquam pastor super gregem suam. Gregem patris pascebat Rachel, & eius causa Iacob amovit lapidem, quo puteus claudebatur, & adaquavit gregem. Gregem Dei Maria pascit ac propter ipsam Christus Dominus, gratiae aquam fidelibus tribuit. Idem. to. 4. d. Sing. Devo. B. Virg. Sicut hanc habet in 〈◊〉 eminentiam coeleste corpus, qood omnis generatio, 〈◊〉, & motus inferiorum ab co pendet: sic decrevit Deus omnia spiritualia dona hominibus concedere per Mariam, quae summa dignitas creaturae est. Omnis Gratia quae est in Christo, est in Maria, in Christo tanquam in capite influente, in Maria tanquam in collo transfundente: in Christo tanquam in fonte, in Maria tanquam in Canali. saith, Whatsoever Christ giveth, must pass unto us by the hands of Mary, as by a Mediatrix. Osorius the jesuit saith, Even as the heavens have that eminency, that all generation, perfection, and motion of things inferior depends upon them; so likewise God bestoweth all spiritual gifts to men, by Mary. Jesuit. That other phrase, much disliked by your Majesty, That God reserving Justice to himself, hath given away his Opera Regia, Resp. ad Card. Peron. Mercy to his Mother; is not used by the Church in any of her Prayers, nor allowed of by Catholic Divines: nor will we justify it, being an harsh and unfitting Metaphor, though thereby the Authors thereof meant to express a Truth, to wit, that the blessed Virgin is exceeding gracious with her Son, and her intercession very potent, alluding to a phrase of Scripture (Hester, cap. 5. 3, 6. cap. 7. 2. Mar. 6. 23.) whereby such as are gracious with a Prince, are said, that they may have any thing of him, though half of his Kingdom: So dividing God's Kingdom into justice and Mercy, to show how gracious the blessed Virgin is with her Son, they say, God hath given her one half of his Kingdom, to wit, his Mercy: which is a Metaphor far-fetched, not to be used, howsoever in Charity it may be excused. ANSWER. It is not a Phrase only, but a blasphemous Doctrine, which his Majesty misliked: For what can be more impious, than to maintain, That Christ reserving the Kingdom of justice to himself, hath granted the Kingdom of Mercy to his Mother? To veil this Sacrilege, the jesuit affirmeth two things: First, That this form of speaking is not used by the Roman Church, nor approved by Catholic Divines: secondly, That being expounded charitably, it containeth a Truth. But these excuses are Figge-leaves, and painted Sepulchers: for learned Papists, both of elder and modern times, maintain the same, to wit, Thomas a Thom. Praefat. in Epist. Canon. Gorrhan. ibid. Gerson. Magnificata est ita hodiè B. Virgo, ut Regina Coeli, imo & mundi jure vocetur, habens praeeminentiam, & virtutem influxivam, super omnes, principatum habet dimidij Regni Dei, si sic dici potest, sub Typo Esther & Assueri Regnum quippè Dei consistit in Potestate & Misericordia, semel locutus est Deus duo haec audivi, quia potestas Dei est, & 〈◊〉 Domine Misericordia. Potestate Domino remanente, cessit quodammodò Misericordiae pars Christi Matti Sponsaeque regnanti. Hinc ab Ecclesia tota Regina Misericordiae salutatur. Cassand. d. Offic. Bon. viri. An non apertè scribit Gabriel Biel, vir alioqui non indoctus nec ineptus, Patrem Coelestem dimidium Regni sui de 〈◊〉 beatissimae Virgini Coelorum Reginae, idque in Esther significatum fuisse, cui dictum sit ab Assuero, etiam si dimidium Regni 〈◊〉 petieris dabitur tibi: ita Patrem Coelestem cum habet justitiam & Misericordiam, tanquam potiora Regni sui bona, justitia sibi retenta, Misericordiam 〈◊〉 Matri consesisse. 〈◊〉. Psalt. B. Virg. Deus luditium tuum Regi da, & Misericordiam tuam Reginae 〈◊〉 eius. , Bonaventure, Gerson, Gabriel Biel, Antoninus, Bernardinus, Gorrhan, Holcoth, Rutilius Benzonius, Blasius Viegas, Osorius, Paulus Cararia. Bonaventure saith, O God, give thy judgement to the King (thy Son) and thy Mercy to the Queen, his Mother. Gerson, Gorrhan, etc. say, The B. Virgin is so magnified at this day, that she may rightly be called the Queen of Heaven, yea, and of Earth; for she hath pre-eminence and iufluxive virtue over all. She hath the moiety of God's Kingdom (if one may presume to say so) under the Type of Hester and Assuerus: For the (whole) Kingdom of God consisteth of Power and Mercy; and Power being reserved to God himself, the moiety of the Kingdom, to wit, Mercy, is shared (after a sort) with the Mother and Spouse of Christ, reigning (together with her Son.) Benzonius saith, a Benzo. in Cant. Magnif. lib. 1. c. 18. Regnum Dei universum justitia & Misericordia duab' quasi partibus constituitur, & ordinatur, iuxta illud Psal. 84. Misericordia & Veritas obuiaverunt sibi, justitia & Pax osculata sunt. Deus igitur ut honoraret Matrem sui Filij, quasi dividens huiusmodi Regnum justitiam, sibi & Filio reseruavit, constituens illum judicem universorum, arguentemque mundum, de Peccato, de justitia, & de juditio, etc. Alteram Regni partem, quae Misericordia regitur, & circundatur, Reginae 〈◊〉 concessit. Sic Assuerus, Reginae 〈◊〉, dimidiam partem Regni obtulit dicens: Quid petis ut detur tibi, & pro qua re postulas? Etiam si dimidiam partem Regni mei petieris, impetrabis, Esther 5. Quod si Raguel dimidiam partem de omnibus quae 〈◊〉, concessit Tobiae, faciens hanc Scripturam, ut pars dimidia quae supererat post obitum eius, Tobiae 〈◊〉 deveniret, Tab. 8. Cur non Christus, Mariae? Moses, Exod. 24. Dimidiam partem sanguinis victimarum, quas Filij Israel imolaverant, accepit & misit in Crateras: partem autem residuam fudit super Altar: Sic Deus quasi dimidiam Regni, hoc est sanguinis Christi partem illam, nempè ex qua Misericordia emanat, in cratere & vase admirabili Mariae posuit, & conclusit: residuam partem, justitiae nempè, essusam super Altar, id est, Christum relinquens. The whole Kingdom of God consisteth of justice and Mercy, as it were of two Moities, Psal. 84. Now, to the end that God might honour his Mother, dividing as it were his Kingdom, he hath reserved justice to himself and his Son, etc. and the other part of his Kingdom, which is governed and compassed with Mercy, he hath granted to the Queen his Mother. Even as King Assuerus offered half of his Kingdom to Queen Esther, and as Raguel granted half of his goods to Tobia, etc. as Moses, Exod. 24.6. took half of the blood and put in Basins, and half of the blood he sprinkled on the Altar: so Cod put (as it were) half of his Kingdom, that is, that part of the blood of Christ from which Mercy floweth, into the admirable Vessel and Basin, the Virgin Marie; and the other part, to wit, of justice, which was poured upon the Altar, he hath left unto Christ. Thus writeth Benzonius, a famous Roman, both by birth and Religion, in our days. Blasius Viegas b Vieg. in Apoc. cap. 12. Com. 2. Sect. 2. Illud quod Rex Assuerus obtulit Esther, Quid vis Esther Regina, quae est petitio tua? Etiamsi dimidiam partem Regni petieris, dabitur tibi, Esther 5. Id completum fuit in Virgin. Cui nimirum Deus dedit dimidium Regni sui. Regnum quippe Dei, duobus ait contineri Potentia & Misericordia iuxta illud, Psal. 61. Duo haec audivi, quia potestas Dei est, & 〈◊〉 Domine Misericordia: Potestate igitur Deo remanente, cessir 〈◊〉 Misericordiam Dei 〈◊〉, Sponsaeque regnanti. Itaque Virginem divisum habere cum Deo imperium, & 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam appellare 〈◊〉 Matrem, ac Reginam Misericordiae. , a modern jesuit, applieth also this absurd comparison of Assuerus and Esther, to Christ and the Virgin Marie. And these Authors, with the rest whom they follow, do not intend only to teach, That the blessed Virgin is very gracious with Christ, in respect of her intercession, but that she hath a right and authority, as a Queen Regent a Bernardin. Marial. p. 3. d. Nom. Mar. Ser. 2. Excel. 3. Beata virgo est Imperatrix coeli & terrae, etc. Imperat filio ratione maternalis iurisdictionis. , to distribute mercy and benefits, where she pleaseth, and to dispense with the Laws of justice, when there is cause: as appeareth by the words of Ozorius the b Osorius tom. 4. Conc. d. sing. Devot. B. 〈◊〉. Mater mea in regno meo principatur, non ut alij electi, sed tanquam matter & 〈◊〉, ac Domina, & proinde potest dispensare in legibus à me latis, cum iusta intercesserit causa. Bridget. Revel. lib. 7. cap. 13. jesuit, citing out of Nun Bridgets Revelations, Christ's words following: My mother in my Kingdom, ruleth as a Queen, etc. and therefore she may dispense with Laws made by me, when there is just cause: And by this speech, Nun Bridget intendeth to show, that Christ did use the help of his mother Marie, in ruling his Kingdom; now this Osorius was a jate Preacher in Portugal. Our English jesuits, when they return to us, dissemble and cloak this Superstition, not because they dislike it (for they and the rest are all Birds of a feather, and feed their silly chicks with the same carrion,) but they prudently consider, that such notorious blasphemies, being published, would appear odious, and hinder their success in beguiling unstable souls, and minister greater advantage to their Adversaries: therefore like the Steward in the Gospel (commended for his craft, but not for his honesty) when their Tenet is an hundred, they write down fifty, and when their Doctrine is blasphemous, they confess a petty oversight, or unfitness in the phrase and manner of speaking. But if in good earnest they disliked the former assertions, why hath not the grand Senior of Rome, (sive cum Concilio, sive sine Concilio) condemned, razed, and purged out these sacrilegious blasphemies? especially, because in other Authors, their expurgatorius Index hath Eagles eyes, and a line or sentence cannot escape these Critics, if there appear obloquitie, or antipathy to their inveterate forgeries. Now for a Conclusion of the former Question, let it be observed, That the Adversary is deficient in the demonstration of his Popish Tenet, concerning Invocation of blessed Saints and Angels, for he hath produced no Divine Testimony from sacred Scripture, no Tradition from the Apostles, no plain and resolute definition of approved Counsels, or Primative Fathers, no sufficient argument of natural reason: yea, the main Principles of his Doctrine, are litigious and dubious, amongst Pontificians themselves. He hath struggled, playing fast and loose with our Arguments, and spent himself in soluing, or rather in eluding of objections: but he confirmeth not his own. St. Augustine a Aug. d. Bapt. c. Don. l. 2. c. 3. saith, That in things (divine or) which concern salvation, they offend grievously, Qui certis incerta preponunt, which prefer uncertainties, before that which is indubitate. Nostra fides certa est, ex Doctrina Apostolica, & novo & veteri Testamento confirmata b Athanas. : Our faith, concerning the direct invocation of the deity, by Christ our Mediator of intercession, is right, and a certain Apostolical Doctrine, confirmed by the Old and New Testament. The Popish Appendix, concerning Invocation of Saints, wanteth all Scripture c Clem. Alex. Strom. lib. 7. Non expextamus testimonium quod datur ab hominibus, sed voce Domini probamus quod quaeritur, quae est magis fide digna, quam quaevis demonstrationes, vel potius quae est sola demonstratio: per quam scientiam, qui solum quidem gustavere Scripturas sunt fideles. proof; and whatsoever else may be pretended for it, is dubious and litigious: therefore our Doctrine is of faith, and the Popish Tenet, of humane opinion or presumption. THE FOURTH POINT. THE LITURGY, AND PRIVATE PRAYERS FOR THE IGNORANT, IN AN unknown Tongue. Jesuit. THe Custom of the Roman Church, in this Point, is agreeable to the Custom of the Churches in all ages, and also of all Churches now in the world, bearing the name of Christian, though opposite unto the Roman (only those of the pretended reformation excepted;) which constant concurrence, is a great signe, that the same is very conform unto reason, and not any where forbidden in God's Word, which will easily appear, if we look particularly unto the same. ANSWER. YOu lay your foundation of this Article, upon two apparent untruths: for the Doctrine and custom of the present Roman Church, is not only not agreeable, but opposite, both to the Doctrine and Practice of the ancient Catholic Church, and also to the custom of other Churches (which are not absolute Protestants.) First, It is the common voice of the Fathers, That the Liturgy and Service of the Church, was in their days, and aught to be used in a known tongue. Origen saith a Orig. c. 〈◊〉 lib. 8. German Christiani, nè usitatis quidem in sacra Scriptura Dei nominib' utuntur intèr praecandum, sed Graeci Graecis, Romani Romanis, singuliquè praecentur propria lingua, Deumquè celebrent pro viribus, & omnium linguarum Dominus, omnib' linguis praecantes exaudit, tàm variè loquentes, haud secus quam consonos (ut ità dicam) & unius vocis homines intelligens. , That in his days, every nation prayed to God in their own Language, the Grecians in Greek, the Romans in Latin, and all other people in their proper tongue. justin Martyr b Justin. Apol. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. , Tertullian c Tertul. Apol. c. 39 Coimus 〈◊〉 coetum & cogregationem, ut ad Deum quasi manufacta, praecationibus ambiamus orantes. , Clemens Alexandrinus d Clem. Alex. Strom. li. 7. , affirm, That the Priest and the people prayed jointly, and in common in the public Service, which argueth that the people understood the Prayers. And St. Cyprian e Cyp. d. Orat. Dom. n. 22. Quandò stamus ad orationem fratres dilectissimi vigilare & incumbere ad praeces toto corde debemus, etc. Ib. Quomodò te audiri à Deo postulas cum te ipse non audias? etc. requires, That people's hearts and words agree, and that they hear and understand themselves, when they pray to God. Saint Basil saith f Basil. li. Quest. ex Var. Script. loc. q. 278. Cum ignota fuerint praesentibus verba orationis, in fructuosa est mens orantis cum nemo utilitatem capiat. , When the words of Prayer are not understood by them which are present, the mind of the Precant is unfruitful, neither doth any man hereby reap any profit: St. Chrysostome g Chrys. 1. Cor. Hom. 35. , St. Ambrose h Ambros. sup. 1. Cor. c. 14. Quem potest habere 〈◊〉 qui ignorat quae loquatur etc. Imperitus audiens quod nòn intelligit, nescit finem orationis. Quid prodest ut quis lingua loquatur, quam solus scit, ut qui audit nihil proficiat. , affirm the like. And St. Augustine i Aug. sup. Psal. 18. conc. 2. requireth people to understand what they pray and sing, for if there be only sound of voice without sense, they may be compared to Parrots, Owsells, or Popinjays. And some of the best learned Papists, to wit, Thomas Aquinas k Aquin. sup. 1 Cor. 14. sect. 5. , Lyra l Lira. in 1. Cor. c. 14. Caeterum hic consequentèr idem ostendit in oratione publica. Quià si 〈◊〉 intelligat orationenseu benedictioné Sacerdotis; meliùs reducitur in Deum, & deuoti' respondet amen, etc. Propter quod in Primitiva Ecclesia benedictiones & caetera communia 〈◊〉 in vulgari. , Cassander m 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. ca 28. Canonicampraecem & imprimis Dominici corporis & sanguinis consecrationem ità veteres legebant, ut à populo intelligi, & Amen acclamari posset. , acknowledge, That in the Primative Church, the common Service was used in the vulgar tongue. Secondly, it is false, according to the Tenet of Bellarmine himself n Bellarm. Recog. li. d. Verb. Dei, 2. ca 16. Sunt inter Ruthenos & Armenos Catholici, ut etiàm intèr 〈◊〉 sunt Maronitae Catholoci, qui tamen divina officia, non celebrant Graecè, vel Hebraicè, vel Latinè. , that all other Churches, which differ from the Protestants, have their public service in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin. Bellonius and Aluares affirm the contrary of the Armenians o Petrus. Bellon. observ li. 3. , and Abyssines p 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Hist. AEthiop. ; and Eckius, of the Indians q Eckius. Enchir. ; and Sigismundus Baro r Sigism. Baro. hist. Moscou. , and Hosius s Hosius. d. Sacr. Vernac. Apud Russos neque Graecae, neque Latinae linguae in sactis usus est, , of the Russians; and Ledesma t Ledesm. d. script. ling. vulg. ca 33. , of the Egyptians and Armenians. And AEneus Silvius reporteth, That when Cyrillus u AEneas, Silvius Hist. Bohem. ca 13. 〈◊〉 Cyrillum, cum Romae ageret, Romano pontifici supplicasse, ut Sclavorum lingua eius gentis hominibus, quam 〈◊〉, rem divinam faciens uti possit. De qua re dum in sacro Senatu disceptaretur, essentquè non patici contradictores, auditam vocem tanquam de Coelo in haec verba missam. Omnis Spiritus laudet Dominum, & omnis lingua confiteatur ei. 〈◊〉 datum Cyrillo indultum. and Methodius had converted the Saluons unto Christ, & were suitors that they might administer the common. Prayers and Service among them in their vulgar tongue. The Pope in the Conclave consulting about this matter, a voice was heard, as it were from Heaven, saying, Let every Spirit praise the Lord, and let every tongue acknowledge him, and hereupon they were permitted to use their own tongue. And it appeareth by the Decretals, that the Roman Church in former times did ordinarily appoint this; for the words of the Canon are a Decret. Gre. tit. 31. d. Offic. jud. Ord. c. 14. Quonian in plerisquè partibus intrà eandem civitatem atquè Diocesim, permixti sunt, populi diversarum linguarum, habentes sub una side, varios ritus & mores, districte praecipimus, ut Pontifices huiusmodi 〈◊〉 sive diocesium provideant viros Idoneos, qui secundùm diversitates rituum & linguarum, divina illis officia celebrent, & Ecclesiastica Sacramenta ministrent. , For as much as in many places within one City and one Diocese, there be nations mingled together, speaking diverse tongues, etc. We therefore command that the Bishops of such Cities and Dioceses provide meet men to minister the holy Service, according to the diversity of their manners and tongues. Thirdly, it is repugnant to the nature and end of vocal Prayer b Gabriel. in Can. Miss. lect. 62. B. Oporter quod vocalis oratio, innotes cat populo, pro quo offertur. Quod 〈◊〉 non potest, nisi sit vocalis. Debet nāquè se populus in hac Ministris Ecclesiae conformari. Ipsum Deūsecundū modum sibi possibilem deprecando. Et ideo rationabilitèr statuit Ecclesia, ut Ministri Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 orationes etiàm alta voce pronuncient, ut ad notitiam omnium poterint pervenire. The ends of vocal prayer set down by Biel. 1. Excitatio interioris Devotionis, 2. Mentis illuminatio. 3. Facilior recordatio rerum tempore orandi. 4. Mentis ab evagatione custodia. 5. Plenior debiti redditio, hoc est ment & corpore. 6. Redundantia quaedam ab anima in corpus, ex vehementi affectione, & devotione. 7. justructio proximorum. Aquin. sup. 1. Cor. 14. Ille qui intelligit, reficitur & quantum ad intellectum, & quantum ad affectum: sed 〈◊〉 eius qui non intelligit, est sine fructu refectionis. Ib. Quantum ad fructum devotionis spiritualis, privatur qui non attendit ad ea, quae orat seu non intelligit. , that the same should be exercised in a form of words, which people that pray together understand not; for prayer is an ascending of the mind to God c Damasc. d. fid. lib. 3. cap. 24. Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 lib. 7. : and according to Aquinas d Aquin. 22. q. 83. ar. 1. and other Schoolmen e Caiet. Ib. ar. 1. Richard. 4. d. 15. art. 4. q. 1. Gabr. in Can. Miss. Lect. 61. Navar. Enchir. c. 1. n. 8.13. Azor. Moral. Instit. 1. li. 9 ca 29. q. 3. Suar. d. Orat. c. 3. Nugnus. in 3. q. 85. ar. 4. Dub. 1. ad. 6. , it is an action of the understanding faculty; and in the same, people confess their sins, and request of God such things as they have need of f Alex. 〈◊〉. 4. q. 25. m. 1. ar. 1. Oratio est expressio desiderij, propter bonum adipiseendum vel malum removendum, informata per verbum interius velexterius. Ib. Resol. Duo sunt necessaria oranti, consideratio propriae miseriae, & 〈◊〉 misericordiae, propria miseria consideranda est, ne pigritet implorare defectuum suorum supplementum. 〈◊〉 misericordia consideranda est, nè de obtinendo quod sibi necessarium est, 〈◊〉. . They give thanks for benefits spiritual and temporal, general and special, conferred upon them: and the effect of prayer dependeth upon their inward humiliation, and sense of their wants, 2. Chro. 34.27. Psal. 51.19. and upon their special faith g Aug. Epist. 121. Fides, Spes, & Charitas ad Deum perducunt orantem, hoc est credentem, sperantem, 〈◊〉, & quae petat à Domino in Dominica oratione considerantem. in the divine promises, Math. 9.28. Marc. 9.23. and Marc. 11.29. And Tertullian saith h Tert. lib. d. Orat. c. 13. Deus 〈◊〉 non vocis sed cordis 〈◊〉, est, sicut conspector. , God is not so much an hearer of the voice, as of the heart: But these things cannot be performed, where people understand not what they confess, request, or praise God for. And words are appointed to instruct, excite, and edify men; and if they understand them not, to what use serveth vocal prayer i Aug Ep. 121. c. 11. Nobis ergo verba necessaria sunt, quibus 〈◊〉, & inspiciamus quid petamus, non quibus Dominum seu docendum, seu flectendum esse credamus. ? for we use not words to teach God, but to instruct and excite ourselves. And hereby the Popish evasion is answered, wherein they affirm, that even as When a Supplication is preferred to a King or judge, which the Suppliant understandeth not, it is all one in what language soever the same be, preferred the judge understand it a Ledesm. d. Scrip. Vern. ling. c. 13. Sicut enim qui aliquid à principibus petunt, nihil ad eos attinet, qua lingua mediatores ab eis constituti apud ipsum Principem negotium tractent, etc. Nequè etiam refert, qua lingua patronus, apud judicem causam clientis 〈◊〉, etc. : So likewise because God understandeth all languages, it mattereth not though people pray to him in a strange tongue; for our words in vocal prayer concern ourselves mutually & principally: but God himself requireth the understanding and affection of our heart. Read S. Augustine's words b Aug. Epist. 121. ca 11. Nobis ergo verba necessaria sunt quibus commoneamur, & inspiciamus quid petamus, non quibus Dominum seu docendum seu flectendum esse 〈◊〉. Idem. d. Magist. c. 1. Non opus est locutione cum oramus, id est sonantibus verbis, nisi fortè sicut Sacerdotes faciunt, significandae mentis suae causa, non ut Deus exaudiat, sed ut homines audiant, & consensione quadam per commemorationem, suspendantur in 〈◊〉. Idem. d. Doctr. Chr. lib. 4. cap. 10. Quid prodest locutionis integritas, quam non sequitur intellectus audientis, cum loquendi nulla sit causa, si quod loquimur non intelligunt, propter quos ut intelligant loquimur. cited in the margin. Also the jews under the Law and the Prophets, prayed in a language which they understood: our Saviour and his Apostles, and the Primitive Church did the like, and the gift of languages was bestowed upon Pastors and people, in common, Act. 2.3. Also the former Doctrine is so apparent, that some of the best learned Romists teach, that public service, in a known language, is most fruitful and convenient. Caietan saith c Caiet. in 1. Cor. 14. v. 17. Ex hac Pauli Doctrina habetur, quodmelius ad aedificationé Ecclesiae est, Orationes 〈◊〉 quae audiéte populo dicuntur dici lingua communi Clericis & populo quam dici Latinè. , It appeareth by S. Paul's Doctrine, that it is better for the edification of the Church, that common Prayers which are made in the hearing of the people, be said in a vulgar tongue, understood indifferently by Priest and people, than in Latin. Lira saith d Lira. in 1. Cor. 14. Si populus intelligat orationem Sacerdotis, meliùs reducitur in Deum, & devotiùs respondet, Amen. , If the people understand the prayer of the Priest, they are better brought to God, and they answer Amen with greater devotion. And the reason hereof is manifest, for devotion, compunction, desire, and affection, depend upon understanding, and follow the same e Azor. Instit. Moral. tom. 1. lib. 9 c. 34. q. 8. Affectus 〈◊〉 intellectum, ubi autèm nullus earum 〈◊〉 quae petuntur vel dicuntur, habetur intellectus, aut general tèr tantùm, ibi exiguus assurgit affectus. , and the more distinct and particular the understanding of the object of these is, the more fervent and perfect the actions are. Jesuit. For we may imagine a triple state of Liturgy, in an unknown tongue. The first in a language altogether unknown, in which no man in the Church speaks, no man understands beside the celebrant himself, nor he neither, but by Enthusiasm or inspiration of the holy Ghost. Without question it is inconvenient that public prayer should be said in a language in this sort unknown, and this is proved 1. Cor. 14. by the reasons the Apostle brings against an unknown tongue in the Church. ANSWER. This first imagination, is a Chimaera, or 〈◊〉; for there was never in the world any such kind of common or ordinary Service or Liturgy. And S. Paul 1. Cor. 14. condemneth in general, the use of unknown tongues in the congregation, unless they be interpreted, and referred to mental edification. As for the unlearned Idiot which is ready to join with the Priest in prayer, what is it to him, whether the Priest speak by Enthusiasm, or by discipline, an unknown language? his ignorance and impossibility of special concurrence in prayer, is the same, as well in the one as in the other. Jesuit. Secondly, in a language unknown to most, even of the better sort of the Church, yet some know it, and other may with facility learn it. To use a language in the Church for public prayer in this sort unknown, cannot be proved unlawful, nor forbidden by the Apostle, seeing the reasons brought by him against a language unknown, make not against this: For S. Paul reprehends in the public 1. Cor. 14.16. Liturgy, a language unknown, as the Minister of the Church, that supplies the place of the Idiot and ignorant, cannot upon his knowledge of the goodness of the prayer, say thereunto Amen, in the name of them all. But when the language is known to some of the Church, and may with facility be learned of others, there is, or may easily be found one able to supply the place of Jdeot, and ignorant, and answer in their person Amen, out of his intelligence of the prayer in that unknown tongue. ANSWER. That is forbidden by the Apostle to be used in prayer, (and consequently it is unlawful) whereby all states and sorts of people being of ripe years, may not be edified in their understanding; and to which, being read pronounced or heard, they are not able to say Amen, having some distinct understanding of the things which are spoken, 1. Cor. 14.16, 17. 19, 20. but all states and sorts of people being of riper years, cannot be edified in their understanding, neither are they able to say Amen, etc. to prayers which are heard by them, being read or pronounced in a strange language: Ergo, Common prayer read and pronounced in the Church in a strange tongue, is prohibited by the Apostle, and consequently such form of ordinary prayer is unlawful. The jesuit restraineth the words of S. Paul, either to the Minister supplying the place of the Idiot, or to the Clerk of the congregation. But the Apostle requireth, that all those which join in prayer, and among these the Idiots, and vulgar sort be edified in their minds, and they must pray, and give thanks, understanding the sense of words spoken, and upon this understanding, say Amen. And except (saith he) ye utter by the tongue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 significant words, or words carrying a perspicuous sense with them, ye shall speak in the air, and be as Barbarians to the hearers, v. 9.11. and the Idiot a Suar. 3. Disp. 83. Sect. 1. mentioned by him, v. 16. is not the Priest, or the Clerk alone, but the vulgar sort of people, ignorant of the language and words which are used in preaching, reading, or praying, as all the Fathers b Chrys. Sup. 1. Cor. 14. Hom. 35. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Oecumen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Theod. 1. Cor. 14. Ambros. ibid. Primasius. ib. Sedulius. ib. Anselm. idiota est ineruditus, qui nihil scit, nisi quod proprietas naturae dat. Haimo. ib. Dicitur idiota, proptiam liuguam tantummodo sciens, in qua natus & nutritus est. Si igitur, talis astiterit tibi, dum aut mysterium Missae solemniter celebras, aut sermonem 〈◊〉, aut benedictionem tribuis, quomodo 〈◊〉 Amen super tuam benedictionem? , and sundry Pontificians c Aquin. in 1. Cor. 14. Ledesm. d. script. c. 〈◊〉. idiotae graecè dicuntur plebei & ignari homines. deliver, which comment upon this text. As for the Latin, the same is as uncouth to a great part of the congregation, as to the Chinese: they can only gape at it, and return home from Mass and Matins, as wise as they went, for aught they learn by the language. The old rule was, Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor ulli, and accordingly, your Mass Priests are mere barbarians, to the ordinary sort of people. Jesuit. Notwithstanding, the Roman Church doth not approve the usage of a language in this sort unknown, as appeareth by the late dispensation of Paulus the fifth unto Jesuits, to turn the Liturgy of the Mass into the vulgar language of China, and to use the same till the Latin language grow more known and familiar in that country. For though public prayers in a language thus unknown, cannot be proved unlawful, yet it is undecent to use a language which to the whole multitude of the hearers may seem barbarous and uncouth. ANSWER. In the Roman Church until Lutber began more freely to manifest your abuses to the world, palpable ignorance was so predominant in many places, that most Priests a Explic. Cath. loc. Script. part. 3. Explic. 48. pa. 1155. Si peccatum est ab Ecclesia, potius peccatum est quia plcrique accersiti sunt qui neque intelligunt 〈◊〉 quae orant & fantur, neque hi quid respondent vel ad quid respondent. Biel. Can. Mis. lect. 62. jos. Angles in 4. Sent. Append. ad poenit. d. Attent. q. 5. Diff. 2. Concl. 2 Multi elerici & Religiosi: & moniales Graece vel latine orantes, nec sensum verborum intelligunt, nec intelligere possunt. , and other religious persons were ignorant of the latin tongue, and understood not the Psalms, lessons, and prayers which themselves read in the Church. Matthew Paris b Math. Paris. Cronic. in Will. Conquest. pa. 7. Clerici quoque & ordinati adeo literatura carebant, ut caeteris esset stupori, qui Grammaticam didicisset. speaking of England saith, Clerks and men in Orders were so illiterate, that he was a mirhor among his fellows which had learned Grammar. Catherinus saith c Catherine. Annot. Caietan. sup. 1. Cor. 14. Qui supplent locum Idiotae, plerumque non intelligunr quid oretur, verum etiam saepenumero nec 〈◊〉 praesbyteri, aut Diaconi, qui orant, aut legunt. : Not only they which supply the place of the Idiot do many times notunderstand what is prayed, but also Priests and Deacons themselves are ignorant of what they pray or read. joseph Angles saith: Many Clerks and religious persons, and Nuns, pray in Greek and Latin, which neither do, nor can understand the meaning of the words. Neither is it held necessary in our Adversary's Tenet, that either Priest or people should understand the service of the Church. For Suares saith d Suares. 3. disp. 83. Sect. 1. Etiam nunc non est necesse, ut minister linguam intelligat, in qua Missa dici, tur, etc. , It is not necessary at this day, for the Minister to understand the language wherein the Mass is said, but it is sufficient that it be uttered in the faith of the Church. And Ledesma saith e Ledesm. d. Scrip. Qua vis ling. legend. ca 13. , Prayers and praises, performed by them which understand them not, are pleasing to God, and Christ: for if (saith he) Prayers profit such as are absent, and hear them not, much more shall they profit them which are present, though they understood them not. This reason concludeth as well, that it is not necessary for the people to be present at common service, nor yet that it is requisite they should so much as desire the prayers of the Church; for Infidels and Infants are many times benefitted by the Church's prayers, when they in their own persons, by reason of tender years, or ignorance, can require or wish no such thing. Now if one should argue as Ledesma the jesuit doth, Prayers profit such as understand nothing of prayer, and which desire not the Church to pray for them: Therefore it is not necessary that common people shall know any thing in general or particular, touching the nature of prayer, or that they should desire to reap benefit by common prayer, he concludeth as firmly from this antecedent, as the jesuit doth from the former. Jesuit. Thirdly, a language may be termed unknown, because it is not the vulgar, though most men of better sort understand it. Such was anciently the Latin language in the whole Roman Empire, and now in the Latin Church; for not only Priests understand the same (or if some few do not, it is the fault of Bishops that or deign them) but also an innumerable company of Lay men, not only addicted to learning, but also other Gentlemen, yea many of the vulgar, partly by reason of the affinity their Mother tongue hath with the Latin, partly out of Education, which commonly when they are children they have. How then can the Service or Liturgy in Latin be said absolutely to be in an unknown tongue, which the most part (besides women) in some sort understand? Moreover the prayers which S. Paul speaketh of, were extempor all, made in public meetings, according to the devotion of the speaker: therefore it was necessary that he should pray in a known language, that those which heard him, might know when to say Amen; and whether the prayer for matter was such as they might lawfully say Amen thereunto. But now theSeruice and Liturgy of the Church hath set offices for every Festival day approved by the Church, which by continual use, are made so known and so vulgar unto common people, as no man is so ignorant that using diligence or attention, may not in short time come to understand them. And hereunto serve exhortations, sermons, Catechisms, private instructions, manuals and Primers in vulgar languages, where the prayers used for the Church are found; which show that the latin service cannot be unknown to any tbat will use diligence to understand it, neither can any doubt, but that he may lawfully say Amen to it, ANSWER. The sum of this argument is; It is lawful to make common prayer in a language which most people understand, but such is the Latin tongue: for (besides Women) Priests and Lay men, both Gentlemen and Plebeians, partly by education, and partly by help of Sermons, Catechisms, and private instructions, etc. understand Latin prayers. Neither part ofthiss argument is true. First, although the Moiety or Mayor part of people in some congregarions, did understand Latin Service, yet because a great part understandeth it not, there is no reason (especially the thing required being good in itself) to respect one part with neglect and detriment of the other. For if many 〈◊〉 in the congregation understand Greek, Latin, or French, shall it therefore be lawful in an ordinary course, to read the holy Scriptures, or to make Sermons in these tongues, when as many or very many people are ignorant in these languages? The papals in their service, not only read their common Prayet, but also the Lessons and Portions of holy Scriptures in the Latin tongue, of which a great part of the affemblie is ignorant. Secondly, it is false, considering the state of the Church in general, that the Mayor part of people understandthe Latin service, or that by Sermons, or Catechising, etc. they are 〈◊〉 hereunto. Of the ignorance of Priests I have formerly spoken, and many learned Papists which maintain Latin Service: hold it not generally necessary for Priest or people to understand the words of the Service. Suares the 〈◊〉 saith a Suar. in 3. 〈◊〉 3. Dis. 83. Sec. 1. Etiam nunc non est necesse ut minister linguam intelligat in qua Missa dicitur. , It is not at this day necessary for the Priest or Minister to understand the language in which the Mass is said. And Ledesma saith b Ledesm. d. Diu. Script. ca 13. nu. 1. 10, 11, 12. , Although the ancient Church required that the Clergy should understand that which they read andprayed, yet they sought not this in the people, neither is it behooveful for the people in what language the Priest saith Mass or prayeth for them; and even as the children crying 〈◊〉 in the Gospel, without knowledge of what they said, pleased our Saviour, Matth. 21, so likewise God accepteth the prayers of people, although they understand not what they ask or speak. Thirdly, if according to your own concession, it be expedient to have unlearned persons taught the sense of the public service, by Catechisms, manuals, and private instruction: than it is far more reasonable to have the same uttered in a vulgar language, because hereby there ensueth an immediate edification of all persons present at divine service: and the other means by Catechising, etc. is a going about the bush, the effect is uncertain, and unsufficient to afford distinct understanding of an unknown language. Jesuit. Now, that S. Paul did command that Service should be in such a language, as every woman in the Church might be able to understand it word by word, is incredible, nor are our Adversary's able to prove it. ANSWER. A most ridiculous Paralogism, for admitting, that S. Paul descended not precisely to every single word, explained in such manner, that every particular woman might at the first hearing understand the same, yet the conclusion followeth not, That he commanded not the common Service should be in a known language. First, yourselves acknowledge that Preaching and Prophesying should be in a known tongue: and yet every word, or perhaps every sentence cannot (speaking morally) be uttered so plainly, that every person shall at the first sight, distinctly conceive the meaning. Secondly, the ignorance of the distinct notion of every word, hindereth not sufficient edification, when the ordinary, necessary, and common passages of the public Service are intelligible. Jesuit. Neither can they show by any records of Antiquity, that such a Custom was in the Primative Church; yea the contrary may more than probably be showed, because the drift of the Church, in appointing Liturgies, or set forms of public Prayer, at the Oblation of the Eucharistical Sacrifice, was not the people's instruction, but for other reasons. First, That by this public Service, a continual daily tribute of homage, of Prayer, of Thanksgiving, might be publicly offered, and paid unto God. Secondly, That Christians by their personal assistance at this public Service, might protest and exercise exteriorly Acts of Religion, common with the whole Church, represented by the Synaxis or Ecclesiastical meeting of every Christian Parish. Finally, To the end that every Christian by his presence, yielding consent unto the public Prayers, Praises,! and Thankesgiving of the Church, and as it were, subscribing and setting his Seal unto them, by this assisting at them, might ordinarily participate of the graces, benefits, and fruits which the Church doth obtain by her Liturgies and public Oblations. Now for this end, there is no need that every one should understand word by word, the Prayers that are said in the public; but it sufficeth, that the Church in general, and in particular, Pastors and Ecclesiastical persons, dedicated unto the Ministeries of the Church, and who watch, being bound to give an account of souls committed unto their charge; have particular notice of all the Prayers that are said, and that all that will, may be taught and instructed in particular, if they will use diligence and desire it. ANSWER. We can prove by Records of Antiquity, that the public Service was jointly performed by the Ministers, and people, a Just. Mart. Apol. 2. 〈◊〉. 2. Cor. Hom. 18. Basil. Hexam. Hom. 4. August. in Psal. 54. Ambros. Hexam. lib. 3. cap. 5. Leo de ieiun. 7. men's. Serm. 3. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Eccles. Offic. lib. 1. cap. 10. Justinian. Novel. Const. de Eccles. diverse. cap. Constit. 123. in a language common to both. And the drift of the ancient Church in their Service, was, that God might be honoured by voice, heart, and mind of all which were present, john 4. 24. But God in the state of the Gospel, is not honoured with dumb shows, and with lip labour, nor with Prayers and Praises which the Offerers understand not. The reasons which you produce to prove, That it is not necessary for unlearned people to understand the Common Service or Liturgy, are lame and disjointed. First, Although the sole or principal end of appointing set forms of public Prayer, was not to teach or instruct people in knowledge, but to worship God, etc. yet because the latter cannot entirely be performed without the former, because they which come to God with sound of words, without sense and understanding of matter, offer the sacrifice of fools; therefore the placing of the one, excludeth not the other: for although the end of private Prayer, is to worship God, Psal. 50. 15. yet our Adversaries themselves hold it requisite a Azor. Instit. Mor. tom. 1. lib. 9 c. 34. q. 8. Qui privatim ac libere orant, consultius facerent illi quidem, si ea lingua & sermone, mentem suam coram Deo effunderent, quam rectius callent. Affectus enim consequitur intellectum: ubi autem nullus rerum earum, quae petuntur, vel dicuntur, habetur intellectus, aut generalis tantum, ibi exiguus assurgit affectus. 795. August. Epist. 121. Qui 〈◊〉 orare cupit, verba quae intelligit convenienter adhibet, ut seipsum ad Orationem internam excitet. Citat, Ledesma. de Sacr. vernac. cap. 14. pag. 102. , that such Prayer be made in a known Language. Also, one end of celebrating and receiving the holy Eucharist, is, to commemorate and show forth the Lords death, until his coming again, 1. Cor. 11. 25, 26: but without understanding the Language wherein the Lords Supper is administered, people cannot call to remembrance, or show forth the Lords death, at lest wisè so clearly and distinctly, as is fit for them to do. Secondly, A distinct and explicit inward devotion, joined with external saying Amen, is more effectual and pleasing to God, than a confused and general. But when people understand the public Prayers and Service of the Church, in a familiar Language, they are enabled to conjoin distinctly and explicitly, inward and outward devotion, mental and vocal saying Amen. Therefore it is most expedient and necessary for the Church, to celebrate Divine Mysteries, and offer public Prayers, in a Language which the people understand. Jesuit. Moreover the Churches anciently, even in the purest Vid. Liturg. impress. Antuerp. an. 1560. Basil. in Liturg. fol. 34. Chrys. in Liturg. fol. 53. Basil. ibid. fol. 34.38.39.41.43. 46. Chrys. Hom. 61. ad Sop. times of Christianity, had chancels, into which, Laymen might not enter, and so could not particularly, and distinctly understand the Prayers said by the public Minister of the Church: within the said Chancels, they did also use to say a good part of the Liturgy secretly, so that their voice was not audible unto any; yea, the Greek Church did anciently use a veil, wherewith the Priest was for the time of the sacred Oblation compassed about, which are manifest signs, that the Church did never think it necessary, that all the public Liturgy should be heard, much less word by word understood by the whole vulgar multitude present thereat. ANSWER. It is not certain at what time chancels began, neither were all Lay Persons prohibited to enter: for the Emperor had his seat within the Chancel, until the days of Theodosius the Elder, as Theoderit a Theod. Hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 17. and Sozomene b Sosom. Hist. Eccles. lib. 7. cap. 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. Concil. 6. General. Can. 69. apud Caranz. Nulli omnium qui sit in Laicorum numero liceat intra sacrum Altare ingredi. Ab 〈◊〉 tamen nequaquam prohibita potestate & authoritate Regia, quandoquidem voluerit, etc. report. And although Lay persons were not seated in the Choir or Chancel, yet the Service was pronounced by the Ministers in that place, with an audible voice, so as the people in the body of the Church heard the same. justinian c Justin. Imp. 〈◊〉 No. Constit. 123. jubemus ut omnes Episcopi pariter & Presbyteri, non tacito modo sed clara voce, quae a populo exaudiatur, 〈◊〉 oblationem, & praeces in Sancto Baptismate adhibitas celebrent, quo maiore exinde devotione in depromendis Domini Dei laudibus, audientium animi efferantur. Ita enim & D. Apostolus docet dicens in 1. ad Cor. Epist. the Emperor made this Decree following: We command that all Bishops and Priests, (within the Roman Monarchy) shall celebrate the sacred Oblation of the Lords Supper, etc. not in secret, but with a loud and clear voice, that the minds of the hearers may be stirred up with more devotion to express the praises of the Lord God, for so teacheth the Apostle, 1. Cor. 14. Honorius d Honor. in Gem. Animae. lib. 1. cap. 103. d. Canon. Fertur dum Canon primitus publice quotidie recitaretur, ab omnibus per usum sciretur, & cum eum Pastoresin in agro super panem, & 〈◊〉 dicerent, repent carnem & sanguinem ante se invenirent, atque inde divinitus percussi interirent, unde Synodali Decreto sub Anathemate praeceptum est, ut nullus Canonem dicat, nisi in libro, & in Sacris vestibus, & nisi super altar & super sacrificium. in gemma Animae, lib. 1. cap. 103. It is reported, that in ancient time, when the Canon of the Mass was openly recited, etc. john Billet e john Billet. d. diuin. Offic. Secreta dicitur, quia secreto pronunciatur, cum olim tamen alta voce diceretur, unde & ab 〈◊〉 bus Laicis sciebatur. Contigit igitur ut quadam die pastors super lapidem quendam ponerent panem, qui ad horum verborum prolationem, in carnem conversus est, forsan transubstantiatus est panis in corpus Christi, in quos divinitus facta est 〈◊〉 vindicta. Nam percussi sunt divino iuditio caelitus misso, unde statutum fuit, ut de caetero sub silentio diceretur, velideo ne vileseat, sicut & sacra Scriptura ne vilescat. , cited by Cassander, saith, In times past, the Mass was pronounced with a loud voice: whereupon Lay people knew the same, etc. And mumbling and whispering in the Mass, is not much more ancient than Pope Innocent the third. The Liturgies also fathered upon S. Basil, and S. Chrysostome, have a known Mother (to wit, the late Roman Church:) but there is (besides many other just exceptions) so great dissimilitude between the supposed Fathers and the Children, that they rather argue the dishonest dealing of their Mother, than serve as lawful witnesses of that which the Adversary intendeth to prove by them a Read Phil. Morn. d. Miss. & part. lib. 1. cap. 6. pag. 88 tit. Liturgiae huius Saeculi. Claud. Espenc. d. Miss. Private. pag. 220. . The Veil in the Greek Church, of which S. Chrysostome speaks, Hom. 61. ad Pop. Antioch. was not used to deprive the people of hearing, but it was a ceremony, admonishing, and signifying, that profane and unclean persons were unworthy to behold or partake the sacred mysteries b Chrys. Hom. 61. ad pop. Antioch. Cum audieris oremus omnes communitèr, cum vela videris retrahi, tunc supernè Coelum aperiri cogita, & Angelos descendere. Sicut itaquè prophanorum fas est adesse neminem, ità nec ullum quidem Sacratorum & Sordidorum, etc. Indigni sunt & oculi 〈◊〉 hisce spectaculis, indignae sunt & aures, si bestia inquit tangat montem lapidabitur. . And as this Father showeth, Hom. 3. in Ephes. c Idem. sup. Ephes. Ho. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , the drawing open of the curtains signified the opening of Heaven, and the descending of Angels at the celebration of the holy Eucharist. Metrophanes a Monk of Greece d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , in a certain tractate, testifieth the form or use of the Veil or Curtain in the East Church to be, That the Priest may within or under the same, prepare aforehand the things requisite for the administration of the Sacrament: and when this is done, than the Canopy is drawn, at the pronouncing of the holy Creed (which is uttered with a loud voice, even as all other parts of the Liturgy are, that all people may hear.) Now this action signifieth (according to Dionysius) that God revealeth these mysteries, to those only which are Orthodoxal in Faith, and he communicates his divine grace to none but those which are sound in the divine worship, and to such all things are manifested, whether men or women, poor or rich, etc. The jesuit therefore is ignorant of the reason, wherefore the Greek Church useth a Canopy, and shutteth and openeth the same at the holy Communion; for the same was not done to take away audience of any part of the Service from lay people (for the whole Liturgy from the beginning to the ending was pronounced with a loud voice) but to admonish and signify the due preparation which all persons were to use when they partake the sacred mysteries. Jesuit. Besides it is certain, that the Scripture was not read in any language but Greek, over all the Church of the East, Hieron. praefat. in Paralip. Basil. d. Spir. sanct. cap. 29. Hieron. in proem. 2. li. come. ad Galat. Act. Apost. cap. 2. & 10. & 11. & 14. Hiero. 〈◊〉 viris 〈◊〉. in Anton. Theoderit. in Histor. SS. Patr. Hist. 13. Aug. Epist. 57 & d. Doctr. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 13. Aug. in Psal. 123. & in Exposit. Epist. ad Rom. & li. 2. contrà 〈◊〉. li. 83. as S. Hierom witnesseth. Also the Greek Liturgy of S. Basil was used in all the Church of the East, and yet the Grecian was not the vulgar language of all the Countries of the East, as is apparent by manifest testimonies of the Cappadocians, Mesopotamians, Galatians, Lycaonions, Egyptians, Syrians; yea that all these countries, and most of the Orient had their proper language distinct from the Greek, is manifest out of the Acts of the Apostles. No less manifest is it, that the Latin Liturgy was common anciently for all the Churches of the Western parts, even in Africa, as appeareth by testimonies of Augustine: but it is manifest, that the Latin was not the vulgar language for all nations of the West. And though the better sort understood it, yet some of the vulgar multitude only knew their own mother tongue, as may be gathered out of the same S. Augustine, who writes that he pleading in Latin against Cryspinus a Bishop of the Donats, for possession of a village in Africa, whereunto the consent of the villagers was required, they did not understand his speech, till the same was interpreted to them in the vulgar African language. So that the Christian Church did never judge it requisite, that the public Liturgy should be commonly turned into the Mother language of every nation, nor necessary, that the same should be presently understood word by word by every one of the vulgar Assistants, neither doth the end of the public divine Service require it. ANSWER. Omitting things doubtful, this is apparent, that common people both of the East and West, had the use of the Scriptures in such a language as they understood; for otherwise the Fathers would not have exhorted them to read the holy Scripture, but such exhortations are most frequent in S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, and in other Fathers, Read before, pag. 279. And that the people of Asia understood Greek, and the Africans Latin, is proved by the learned of our part, out of many Authors a Read Doct. Bilson of Christ, subject. pa. 647. etc. Morn. d. Miss. lib. 2. cap. 6. ; and where this was wanting, people had Translations and Service in their native tongue b Orig. c. Cels. 〈◊〉. 8. Theod. Hist. Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 27. 〈◊〉. lib. 3. cap. 15. Basil. Epist. ad Neocaes. 63. Hier. ad Heliod. Epitaph. Nepotian. & Epist. ad Eustoch. Epitaph. Paul. Aug. Confess. lib. 1. cap. 14. Orig. in Levit. Hom. 5. Basil. praef. in Psal 〈◊〉. Epist. 18. Chrys. in Epist. ad Coloss. Hom. 9 . Also such people as were converted to Christianity, if they wanted Translations in their Mother tongue, were careful to learn the ordinary language, in which divine Service was used, and wherein the holy Scriptures were commonly read. But what proof can the Adversary make, that Christian people (altogether ignorant of the language used in the public Service) came into those congregations, and were partakers of the holy Sacraments? Jesuit. As for the comfort that some few want, in that they do not so perfectly understand the particulars of divine Service, it may by other means be abundantly supplied, without turning the public Liturgies into innumerable vulgar languages, which would bring a mighty confusion into the Christian Church. First, the whole Church should not be able to judge of the Liturgy of every country, when differences arise about the Translation thereof, so diverse errors and heresies may creep into particular countries, and the whole Church never able to take notice of them. Secondly, particular countries could not be certain that they have the Scripture truly translated; for thereof they can have no other assured proof, but only the Church's approbation, nor can she approve what she doth not understand. Thirdly, were vulgar Translations, so many as there be languages in the world, it could not be otherwise but that some would be in many places ridiculous, incongruous, and full of mistake, to the great prejudice of souls, specially, in languages that have no great extents, nor many learned men that naturally speakethem. Fourthly, the Liturgies would be often changed together with the language, which doth much altar in every age, as experience showeth. Fiftly, in the same country, by reason of different dialects, some provinces understand not one another. And in the island of japonia, as some write, there is one language Turselin. in vita Zaverij. for noble men, another for rustics, another for men, another for women. Into what language then should the japonian Liturgy be turned? Finally, by this vulgar use of Liturgy, the study of the two learned languages would be given over, and in short time come to be extinct, as we see that no ancient language now remains in humane knowledges, but such as have been as it were incorporated in the public Liturgies of the Church, and the common use of learned tongues being extinct, there would follow want of means for Christians to meet in general Counsels, to communicate one with another in matters of Faith. In a word, extreme Barbarism would be brought upon the world. ANSWER. They cannot be some few only in this case, but the mayor part, yea an hundred to one, which want the benefit and comfort of the holy Scriptures, and public Service of the Church. And to supply this want, by preaching or private instruction, it is (morally speaking) impossible, & it may be performed more compendiously and easily, if Papists would choose rather to follow S. Paul's doctrine, 1. Cor. 14. than stiffly to adhere to the late custom of the Roman Church. Now the reasons which the Adversary and his consorts use, to prove the inconvenience of Translations, etc. are no other than such as will make against Preaching and Catechising in a known tongue, as well as using public Service in the same. For are Romists able to translate Catechisms, Homilies, Meditations, and private Prayers into a vulgar tongue, and to accommodate all sorts of people according to the diversity of their languages, without detriment to the common Faith, and shall it be impossible to do the like in translating Scripture, and the Service of the Church? And to the reasons, I answer. First, the whole Church, whensoever it is requisite, may judge of translated or peculiar Liturgies, by the helps of the learned and judicious, who understand both the vulgar language of the place, and also Latin or other Language, fit for Ecclesiastic communication. Secondly, It may take notice of heresies, and judge of Translations, by the same means. And in the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth place, as the objected inconveniences are prevented in Preaching, Catechising, and private Prayers, so they may be prevented in public Liturgies, yea, God Almighty will give a blessing, and be assistant to such as observe his own Ordinance. The same also would be so far from causing Ignorance and barbarism in the world, that nothing could more increase good literature, and polish barbarous Languages, than the often comparing of one Language with another, and the refining and enlarging of that which is rude, and over-narrow and sparing, out of Tongues more ample and elegant. Experience teacheth this in Great Britain, whose deficient and rude native Language, by means of all sorts of Translations, is made most polite and copious. Jesuit. Private Prayer for ignorant people in their vulgar Languages, we practise, we allow; yea, the Pater noster and the Creed, are to be known of all in their mother Tongues, which two forms contain the whole substance of Prayer: For the end of Prayer being threefold, to praise God for his infinite perfections, to give him thanks for his benefits bestowed upon us, to demand of him such necessaries as we want, as well for the maintaining of this present, as for the attaining unto eternal life: The Creed being a sum of the perfections of God, and his benefits towards man, affords sufficient knowledge to comply with the two former ends of Prayer; and the Pater noster being an abridgement of all those things which we need, contains a full instruction for the third. Other Prayers do but more plainly express things contained in the Pater noster and the Creed, and our many Books do show, that these kind of Prayers in vulgar Languages, are by us written, esteemed, and practised. We add, that ordinarily speaking, Common people do more profit by saying Prayers in their mother tongues, than in the Latin; because not only their affections are moved unto piety, but also their understanding edified with knowledge. Notwithstanding, some Prayers, though translated into English, be so difficile to be understood, as they will rather distract ignorant (especially curious people) than instruct; of which kind, are many Psalms of David: and these Prayers (as we think) may more profitably be said in Latin. So that I see no great difference either in practice, or in Doctrine, between Protestants and the Romance Church, concerning private Prayers in a Language unknown. ANSWER. The Opposition of Protestants hath brought you to this a Antonin. sum. mor. Tit. 23. c. 9 §. 5. Praeces in ore Laicorum, qui ignorant sensum, tantum valent quantum in ore sacerdotum intelligentium: sicut Lapis praetiosus aequè valet in manu eius, qui ignorat virtutem. , and yet you enterfere in your Tenet: for many of your fellows teach, That it is not necessary to make private Prayer in a known Language. And as you permit vulgar Translations of holy Scripture, rather to satisfy the importunity of people, than for any good will you bear the Scripture: so likewise, if your Kingdom were as absolute in the World, as sometimes it was, we may justly suspect, that you would recall your later Indulgences, and reduce each thing to the old Centre. But taking you at the best, it 〈◊〉 strange to us, that you should approve a known Tongue as most fit for private Prayer, and account the same a Canker in the public Liturgy. One of your Order is not ashamed to traduce our Service, because it is used in a common Language, as pernicious, profane, sacrilegious, detestable, and opposite to all Religion, and Apostolical Tradition b Ledesm. jesuita. d. Diu. Script. & Miss. Quavis Lingua, c. 1. Eorum temerariam, & impiam, tantoque ipsorum 〈◊〉 cósensu receptam cósuetudinem. Quoties execranda illa sua sacra peragunt. Cultum tam perniciosum, etc. De hac iam execranda, Sacrilega, & Apostolorum Traditioni contraria, vulgari Missae & Officiorum divinorum celebratione, ac publicae Ecclesiae Orationis vernaculae Linguae, prophana recitatione. . But having examined whatsoever this Author, or yourself can say, I observe in neither of you so much as one probable Argument, to support the high conceit you have of your Roman Service, and the partial respect, or rather despect, you carry against ours. It is Custom therefore, and not Verity, which hath emboldened you; and you lean upon a broken Reed, when you ground your Faith, in this and other Questions, upon the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Trident Synod. Sapientiam sibi adimunt, qui sine iudicio inventa maiorum probant, & ab aliis more pecudum ducuntur (saith Lactantius c 〈◊〉. d. Orig. Error. lib. 2. cap. 8. :) They remove wisdom from themselves, which without judgement maintain the inventions of their Elders, and which like Animals are led by other men's Devices. THE FIFTH POINT. REPETITIONS OF PATER-NOSTERS, AVES, AND CREEDS, ESPECIALLY affixing a kind of Merit to the number of them. Jesuit. I Am persuaded, that your Majesty doth not intend to dislike Repetition of Prayers, so the same be done with renewed Devotion, and Affection. For this Repetition is justified, not only by the example of the blind man, who still cried upon our Saviour, with Repetition of the same Prayer, jesu fili David, miserere mei, by which Repetition he obtained Luc. 18. v. 29. his sight: Nor only of the Princely Prophet, who in his 135. Psalm repeats 27 times, Quoniam in aeternum Isa. 6. misericordia eius: Nor only of the Seraphins, who in praising their Creator, repeat three times over the same word, Holy, Holy, Holy: But also by the example of Matth. 26. v. 4. Mar. 14.39. eundem Sermonem dicens. Luc. 22. 42. our most blessed Saviour himself, who thrice at the least in the Garden repeated the same Prayer, Pater si fieri potest transeat à me Calix iste, veruntamen non mea voluntas sed tua fiat. Wherefore to repeat the same Prayers, is very good and pious, so the same be done with new Devotion; which new devotion, that it may not be wanting, there is appointed for every Pater noster, Aue, and Creed, a special Meditation that may stir up new devotion, at every repeated prayer; and seeing we cannot pray long, but we must needs repeat over the Pater noster in sense: for what can we demand of God, that is not there contained? Why may we not also repeat the same in words? ANSWER. TWo points are controverted in this Article: First, Whether the repetitions of Creeds, Aves, and Pater-nosters, according to the forms prescribed in Primers and Rosaries, is a convenient means to honour God, and the Saints? Secondly, Whether the same be meritorious and satisfactory? Concerning the first, the jesuit useth this argument, Sundry examples are extant in holy Scripture, of repetitions used in prayers and thanksgiving, to wit, Luc. 18, 38, 39 Esa. 6. 3. Psal. 136. Math. 26. 39 to 45. Marc. 14.39. Luc. 22. 42. Ergo, Repetition of Pater-nosters, Creeds, and Aves, according to the forms prescribed in the Romish Primers and Rosaries, are pious and lawful. I answer: Granting that repetitions in prayer, and thanksgiving which agree with the examples of sacred Scripture, are pious and lawful: but the Illation from these to the Roman Battalogees is inconsequent, because the repetitions in question, differ from the pattern expressed in holy Scripture. First, in the kind and object, for this latter are in part directed to creatures, and not only to the Creator, and of this devotion there is no example in Scripture. Secondly, they are multiplied to an excessive and portentous number a Suar. d. Orat. li. 3. ca 9 Integrum Rosarium centum quinquaginta salutationibus virginis constat, interpositis pro quindecim denarijs, quindecem orationibus Dominicis: corona vero constat septuaginta 〈◊〉 Aue, & septem paternoster, quae a pijs hominibus inventa 〈◊〉 in memoriam, & honorem totidem annorum, quos in hac vita virginem 〈◊〉 probabile est, & ideo 〈◊〉 est corona haec oratio, quia perfectum circulum vitae virginis representat. 〈◊〉. d. Deipar. virg. lib. 3. c. 10. Quibusdam placit quinquagies duntaxat, aliis frequentius, virginem ex more 〈◊〉, intermixta 〈◊〉 pecatione. , and doubtless the Romists exceed and transcend their b Suar. d. Orat. li. 3. ca 9 In rudimentis fidei, solet poni Symbolum Apostolorum sed illud non continet formam orandi, sed confitendi fidem. brethren the Pharisees, in the c Canis. d. Deip. virg. li. 3. c. 10. Fatemur in hac salutatione ut ab Angelo recitata est, precationis formulam non extare. number and vain repetition, of such superstitious Orisons. Thirdly, the Creed and Ave-maries are d Censur. Colon. Dial 6. Orationem Dominicam illis fundimus, non tam ipsos tunc alloquentes, quam Deum ad quem ipsorum manibus eam cupimus deferri, tanquam qui cum gratiores deo sint, facile quod cupimus impetrabunt. josep. Ang. Appen. in 4. q. 7. diff. 7. Hinc sequitur, orantes & offerentes eye pater noster, & Aue Maria, non errare: quia non offerunt verba sanctis, sed pater noster Deo, & Aue Maria virgini, ad honorem Sanctorum, quorum patrocinium postulant: & viri Idiotae quamuis actualiter non referant haec verba ut diximus, virtualiter tamen offerunt, quia si rogarentur de sua intention, dicerent esse eandem cum intentione Doctorum virorum, & Ecclesiae. no prayers or thanksuing, either formally or virtually. Fourthly, our A duersaries maintain, That if these repetitions be used, without understanding of the words e Suar. d. Orat. li. 3. c. 5. n. 3. jos. Angles. 4. Append. d. Orat. q. 5. Attendere est ad id quod dicitur, mentem habere praesentem, nempe ut hoc versetur in cord quod profertur in ore. , and consequently without present actual attention f jac. d. Graph. Decis. Aur. p. 1. li. 2. c. 52. etc. 53. Suar. d. Orat. li. 3. c. 4. n. 7. 8. 17. Non est de ratione orationis ut cogiter orans, de ipsa loqutione, sed satis est si cogitet de Deo, cum quo loquitur. Item non est necessarium, cogitare de re significata 〈◊〉 verba. , they are pious and effectual. But the Romists cannot produce approved examples out of holy Scripture, of such repetitions, and therefore their argument from example concludeth not. It is also apparent that the repetitions which are practised among Papals in manner aforesaid, do rather resemble the superstitious Battalogie of the Pharisees, Math. 6.7. g Ferus. Com. Matth. 6. Signanter dicit, nolite multum loqui, ut faciunt qui cum praeculas plures, aut Psalmos legerint, etiam sine assectu, putant sibi omnia salua, Deumque ipsis plurimum debere, cum tamen nihil minus faciant, quam orent. than the devout prayers and thanksgiuings, recorded for our instruction in holy Scripture. Jesuit. If any think to merit by reason of the number of his prayers, he is ignorant of the doctrine of the Catholic Church, which attributes no merit to prayers, in regard of their number, further than the number awakes in us devout thoughts, which is the only thing that by the number we aim at. We say Pater's, Aves, and Creeds, to the number of three, in memory of the blessed Trinity, seeking God's favour and grace by glorifying that incomprehensible Mystery: to the number of five, in memory of the five special wounds our Saviour received, that pierced into, and through his sacred body: to the number of 33, in remembrance of the 33 years our Saviour wrought our salvation upon earth, giving him thanks for his labours, desiring the application of his merits, stirring up ourselves to the imitation of his virtues: The like reason moveth us to pray in the number of sixty three Angelical salutations, to call to mind the years the Mother of God lived on earth, according to one probable opinion. And because the opinion that she lived seventy two years, now begins to be much followed, many Catholics thereupon (particularly in Spain) have thereupon increased the Corone of our Lady, to seventy two Aue-marias'; a manifest sign, that they never attributed merit unto the number of sixty three, but only to the devout memories of the blessed Virgins virtues, exercised in the years she conversed in this world, giving to God thanks for his great graces bestowed on her. The Psalter of our Lady, and the jesus Psalter, contain one hundred and fifty repetitions of Prayers, the one of Aue-marias', the other of jesus, jesus, jesus, in imitation of the devout Royal Prophet, whose Psalter contains Psalms in God's praise, to the samè number. ANSWER. The true Catholic Church (which the Roman is not) maketh no Prayer meritorious in condignity: for what can be imagined more absurd, than to maintain that beggars do merit, by craving, and receiving alms? And the number of Pater Nosters, Aves, and Creeds, which modern Romists prescribe, is a novel Invention, and was of small esteem until the days of Friar Dominicus a Suar. d. Orat. lib. 3. cap. 9 n. 12. Mulci credunt incaepisse à B. Dominico, per divinam Revelationem (quod est pium & probabile, & non parum antiquum, etc. . It was expected, that the jesuit would have confirmed his Romish devotion, by the Testimony of antiquity, and by the practice of Apostolical Churches, in the best ages thereof: But in place hereof he reciteth only, what the practice of the modern Romists is, in repeating Pater Nosters, Aves, and 〈◊〉, to the number of three, five, and thirty three, sixty three, seventy two, etc. But these devices are voluntary, and grounded upon uncertain causes: for what connexion is there between the Antecedent, to wit, the five wounds of Christ, and sixty three, or seventy two years of the blessed Virgins Temporal life, and the devotion inferred and proportioned? because Christ had five wounds, and the Virgin Marie lived seventy two years in the world, therefore it is a service pleasing God, and such a means to honour the blessed Virgin, as God accepteth for satisfaction, merit, and impetration. There appeareth small difference between the former practice, and that which some Roman Casuists censure as superstitious, to wit, to place virtue, and to ascribe effects, to the precise number of words a 〈◊〉. Enchir. cap. 11. n. 24. Superfluus cultus est, etc. audiendi sacrum à Presbytero qui vocatur johannes, vel dicendi bis Halleluja, vel Pater noster, etc. quando semel tantum dicendum est. and syllables, when the same is not appointed by God. Jesuit. Neither are we in this point of repeating Prayers upon Beads or little stones, in a certain number, for the causes before mentioned, destitute of the example of Saints that lived in the best ages of the Church. Palladius in his History, Pallad. Hist. Laufiac. c. 24. 25. setteth down some examples of Saints praying in this kind: yea, the Centurie Writers and Osiander acknowledge Cent. 4. Col. 1329. Osiand. in Epitome. Cent. 4. p. 454. Sosomen Hist. lib. 6. cap. 29. the example of Saint Paul, a most holy Monk, living in the fourth age after Christ, that In dies singulos trecentas orationes Deo velut tributum reddidit, 〈◊〉 ne per imprudentiam in numero erraret trecentis lapillis in sinum coniectis, ad singulas preces singulos eijcit lapillos, consumptis igitur lapillis constabat sibi orationes lapillis numero pares abs se expletas esse: Which example of so great a Saint, so known, and notorious, and never censured by any Father, may more than abundantly suffice for satisfaction in a matter of no more moment than this: for we are not curious in this point, nor do require of any man that he say his Prayers in a certain number, so as that he may not say more or less, as his devotion serves him. ANSWER. Palladius his writings are of small credit, and this Author was long ago censured by the Ancient b Hieron. Epist. ad Ctesiphon. c. Pelag. Idem. Epist. 60. Possevin. Appar. Sac. verb. Palladius. . Paulus the Monk in Sosomene made three hundred Prayers to God a Sosom. Hist. Eccles. lib. 6. c. 29. In precibus ad solum se defixit, & in dies singulos trecentas orationes Deo velut Tributum quoddam reddidit. , but not any to the blessed Virgin; and his using of stones when he said his Prayers, is an only example, not paralleled in Antiquity. But singular examples are no rule, neither do they always prove the thing done, to be lawful: for Batheus b Ibid. c. 34. Bathaeus tanta usus est continentia tantaque inaedia, ut vermes ex eius dentibus serperent. a Monk, in the same History, used such abstinence, that worms bred in his teeth. Pior c Ibid. c. 29. Pior cum statuisset ab ineunte adolescentia, vitae monasticae se consecrare eo ipso temporis vestigio, quo ea de causa paternis aedibus egressus sit, spopondit Deo se de 〈◊〉 neminem ex suis aliquando oculis aspecturum. Post annos 50. soror, etc. Vbi vero fores crepare sensit, oculis occlusis, etc. another Monk refused, after fifty years absence, to look upon his natural sister. Ammonius d Ibid. c. 30. Cum à quibusdam comprehensus, Episcopus crearetur, quoniam illis qui ad se ea de re venerant precibus persuadere non poterat ut abirent, praecisa auricula dixit, etc. Se obstrinxit iureiurando si vim ei afferre 〈◊〉, linguam quoque excisurum. being solicited to be a Bishop, cut off his own ear, to make himself uncapable. These and the like examples, are not censured by the Historian reporting them, and yet it is more than probable, that it is not safe for others to imitate them. In like sort, Paulus his beads are a matter of singularity, rehearsed by Sozomene, rather for novelty than for imitation. Romists also, have yet a farther slight in their Checkstone tricks of beads, forsooth, to bless and sanctify them, by the touch of Relics, or by the Pope's benediction, that such trash may be sold the dearer by their petty Chapmen. THE sixth POINT. THE DOCTRINE OF TRANSUBSTANTIATION. Jesuit. YOur Excellent Majesty submitting your judgement unto God's express word, doth firmly believe the body of Christ, to be truly present in the most venerable Sacrament of the Altar, which Doctrine doth naturally and necessarily infer whatsoever the Church of Rome holds as matter of Faith, concerning the manner of his presence. ANSWER. HIs Sacred Majesty (a true defendor of the ancient Catholic, and Apostolic Faith, to his immortal praise) submitteth his judgement in this, and in all other articles, to the express word of God, revealed from Heaven by the holy Ghost, and externally preached and penned by the Prophets and Apostles a Hilar. ad Constant. Aug. Fidem Imperator quaeris, audi eam non de novis Chartulis, sed de Dei 〈◊〉. . And concerning the sacred Eucharist, he firmly believeth, that in the holy use thereof, the very Body and Blood of Christ are truly, really, and effectually presented and communicated to all faithful and worthy Receivers. But that the Romish Doctrine of Transubstantiation, to wit, that after consecration, the substance of bread and wine is abolished, and the shapes, accidents, and quantity thereof only remain; or that the Body and Blood of Christ are enclosed substantially and corporally under the accidental forms, before participation; or that dogs and swine truly eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the son of man a Aug. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 21. cap. 25. Qui mancucat carnem meam, & bibet sanguinem meum in me manet, & ego in eo: oftendit quid sit, non Sacramento tenus, sed reverà corpus Christi manducare, & eius sanguinem bibere, hoc est enim in Christo manner ut in illo maneat & Christus. Prosp. sent. Aug. 339. Escam vitae accipit, & aeternitatis poculum bibit, qui in Christo manet, & cuius Christus habitator est. Nam qui discordat à Christo, nec carnem eius manducat, nec sanguinem bibit: etiàm si tantae rei Sacramentum, ad iudicium suae prae 〈◊〉 quotidiè indifferentèr accipiat. Origen. in Math. cap. 15. Si fieri possit ut qui malus adhuc perseveret 〈◊〉 verbum factum carnem, cum sit verbum & panis viws, nequaquam scriptum fuisset, Quisquis ederit panem hunc, vivet in aeternum. Hilarius, d. Trinit. lib. 8. Haec accepta atquè hausta, id efficiunt, ut & nos in Christo, & Christus in nobis sit. , he cannot believe until demonstration be made, that this Faith is taught by God's express word, and was anciently believed by the true Catholic Church. Jesuit. To declare this, and together answer an objection much urged by some Protestants, That they believe the body of Christ to be in the Sacrament, but say, they are not bound to believe the manner, that, not being expressed in Scripture. ANSWER. When the substance of a point is revealed, and the distinct and particular manner concealed, it is sufficient to believe the former, without searching into the latter. And not only some Protestants, but the Fathers also, and some learned Pontificians, deliver thus much concerning the sacred Eucharist. Bandinus b Bandinus, sentd. Sacr. pa. 367. Sed siuè sic, siuè alitèr sit, tenendum est quod Aug. ait. Si quaerismodum quo id fieri possit, 〈◊〉 dico: Mysterium Fidei salubritèr credi potest, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 potest. , and the master of the Sentences c Lombard. Sent. 4. Dist. 11. Si autem quaeritur qualis sit illa conversio, an 〈◊〉, an substantialis, vel alterius generis? definite non sufficio. Tonstal. d. Euchar. lib. 1. pag. 46. De modo quo id fieret, satius erat curiosum quenquè relinquere 〈◊〉 coniecturae, sicut liberum fuit ante Concilium 〈◊〉. , say, Touching the manner of conversion (in the Sacrament) some affirm one way, and some another, etc. We say with S. Augustine, This mystery is safely believed, but not with safety searched into. Cyrill d Cyril. in johan. li. 4. ca 〈◊〉 Firmam fidem mysterijs adhibentes, nunquam in tàm sublimibus rebus, illud quomodo aut 〈◊〉, aut proferamus. Ibid. ca 24. Quomodo id fiat, nec ment intelligere, nec lingua dicere possumus, sed silentio & firma fide id suscipimus. Bernard. Epist. 77. Sacramentum Dei altissimi suscipiendum est, non ratione discutiendum, venerandum & admirandum non dijudicandum, aut ad rationis vel sapientiae humanae calculum revocandum, etc. of Alexandria, We ought firmly to believe the holy mystery, but let us never in matters thus sublime, so much as imagine, to utter the manner how. And again, The manner how this is done, can neither be conceived by the mind, nor expressed by the tongue. Theophilact. a Theoph. in joh. 6. Quando cogitationes incredulitatis ingrediuntur in animam, ingreditur simul quo modo, etc. Oportet igitur nos quum audiverimus, nisi ederitis carnem filij, non habebitis vitam, in sumptionibus divinorum mysteriorum, indubitatam retinere fidem, & non quaerere quo pacto. 〈◊〉. Papa. Myst. 〈◊〉. li. 4. c. 16. Si queratur utrum Christus localitèr 〈◊〉 de Coelo, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Coelum, quum 〈◊〉 aut subtrahit praesentiam corporalem, an aliter incipiat, vel desinat esse sub specie 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. non 〈◊〉 nos in talibus curiosos existere, ne plus quam possumus, praesumamus, & non comprehendamus. Salubre 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Apostolus, Noli plus sapere quam oportet sapere, sed sapere ad sobrietaté. Ego nescio quomodo Christus accedit, sed & quomodo recedit ignoro, novit ille qui nihil ignorat. When we hear these words of Christ, unless ye eat the flesh of the son of man, etc. We ought firmly to believe the same, and not inquire after what manner. And with these agreeth Calvin b Cal. Com. Eph. 5. v. 32. Cum nobis in sacra Caena carné & fanguiné Christi exhiberi negant, modum inquiunt definias aut non persuadebis. At qui ego 〈◊〉 altitudine in stuporé abripeor: nequè verò me pudet, admiratione meá igncrantiá 〈◊〉 Paulo fateri. Quanto enim id satius, quam extenuare carnis meae sensu, quod paulus altum mysterium esse pronunciat? Idquè docetipsa ratio. Quicquid enim supernaturale est, id 〈◊〉 captum ingenij nostri superat. Proindè 〈◊〉 ut Christum sentiamus potius in nobis viventem, quam ut communicationis ratio nobis pateat. sup. Ephes. 5.32. Jesuit. We must note that men are bound firmly to believe the manner of a mystery revealed, when the same belongs to the substance thereof, so that rejecting the manner, we reject the belief of the substance of the mystery. This is evident, and may be declared by the example of the mystery of the Incarnation, the substance whereof is, That in Christ jesus, the nature of God, and the nature of man are so united, that God is truly man, and man is verily God. The manner of this mystery is ineffable and incomprehensible: yet we are bound to believe three things concerning it, which if we deny, we deny the mystery in substance, howsoever we may retain the same in words. First, that this union is not only metaphorical by affection, as two persons that are great friends, may truly be said to be all one, but c Non affectualis unitas sed secundum subsistentiam Synodus 5. general. Can. 4. also true and real. Secondly, this real union of Natures is substantial d Qui non cófitetur Dei verbum substantialitèr uniri carni Anathema sit. Synod. Chalced. Act. 5. Synod. 5. general. Can. 5. , and not accidental, so that thereby the nature of man is not only accidentally perfected, by receiving excellent participations of the divine nature, power, wisdom, and majesty, but also substantially the very fullness of the Godhead, dwelling corporally and substantially in him. Thirdly, this substantial e Con. Lateranense sub Martino. 1. Can. 6. union is not according to the Natures, so that the nature of God, and the nature of man become one, and the same nature (as Eutiches taught) but hypostatical, whereby God and man became one and the same person. These particulars about the manner of the Incarnation, though high and subtle, and imcomprehensible to reason, Christians may, and must believe, because they belong to the substance of the mystery, and are declared by the Church in general Counsels, though the vulgar be not bound explicitly to know them. ANSWER. When the distinct and special manner is revealed, and belongeth to the form and being of an Article, we are obliged to inquire, and firmly to believe the same, according to the instance given about the personal union: But when the same is not distinctly and plainly revealed, nor of the substance of the mystery, it is more safe, according to the holy Scripture, and Fathers a Ambr. 〈◊〉 li. 6. c. 2. Origen. Levit hom. 5. Chrys. 1. Cor. hom. 17. Greg. Mor. li. 20. c. 8. Tertul. d. Anima, ca 1. Hefich. in Levit. 6. , to be ignorant of that which is abstruse and hidden, than to be curious beyond our model, Exod. 19 17. Pro. 25.27. Act. 1.7. Rom. 12.3. 1. Cor. 4.6. Col. 2.18. Touching things inscrutable, S. Chrysostome saith b Chrys. in Math. Hom. 76. , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, it is better to be soberly ignorant, than naughtily intelligent. S. Hierom c Hier. ad Eustoch. , Melius est aliquid nescire securè, quam cum periculo discere, it is better to be ignorant of some things with safety 〈◊〉 to seek to learn them with peril. S. Augustine d Aug. d. ver. Ap. ser. 7. , Melior est fidelis ignorantia, quam temeraria scientia: and justine Martyr e Iust. Expos. fid. , It is the part of every prudent and pious man, in matters divine, sometimes to give the wall (to that which exceedeth his model.) S. Athanasius f Athan. ad Serap. , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. The very Cherubims veil their faces when it is come thus far. Saluianus g li. 3. d. Provide. in like manner saith, Sacriligae temeritatis quoddam genus est, si plus scire cupias quam sinaris, It is sacrilegious temereity to covet to know that which thou art not permitted. But the questions of Theology, which are de modo, concerning the distinct manner, in many cases want sufficient grounds in divine Revelation, to unfold them; and therefore in things of this nature, humble silence is more safe than temerarious definition. Jesuit. In this sort we say, That the manner how our Saviour's body is in the Sacrament of his last supper, must be believed, and may not be denied as far as it concerns the very life, being, and substance of the mystery revealed: which mystery in substance is, That the Body of Christ is present in the Sacrament, in such sort, that the Priest, Minister thereof, demonstrating what seemeth bread, may truly say thereof in the person of Christ, This is my Body. This supposed as the substance of the Mystery, I infer, that two Catholic Doctrines concerning the manner of this Mystery, belong to the substance of this Mystery, and cannot be called in question without danger of misbelief. First, the Real presence of the whole Body of Christ, under the forms of bread: Secondly, that this is done by Transubstantiation. ANSWER. Whatsoever is certainly revealed in holy Scripture, concerning the manner of Christ's Presence in the Sacrament, must be believed, and not denied: and so much is revealed, as is sufficient to enable the Minister & people to understand by Faith, that Christ's word and promise, saying, This is my body, are infallibly true, and always fulfilled, when his Ordinance is observed. But Christ affirmeth not, that the shapes of bread and wine are his Body and Blood, neither that he is present by carnal union of his natural Body and Blood, with the forms or accidents of the Elements; or that his Body and Blood are present in the holy Eucharist, by Transubstantiation. Jesuit. Jesuit 1. That the Real presence of the whole Body of Christ, under the forms of Bread, belongs to the substance of the Mystery. TO prove this, I suppose as certain, that the Body Praesentiam credimus non minus quam vos veram haec fides Regis opera regia. Resp. ad Card. Peron. p. 399.400. of Christ is truly and really in the Sacrament of his Supper. This I may justly suppose, seeing your Majesty doth profess to hold a presence of the Body of Christ in the Sacrament, no less true than we hold; and consequently, you will not understand the words of Christ figuratively, as Sacramentaries do; for they make the Body of Christ present in the Eucharistical Bread, but as in a figure, holding not a true nor a real presence, but only a presence by imagination and conceit, as is evident. ANSWER. Real presence is taken two ways. First, for a true and effectual presence, of the body and blood of Christ, so as man, receiving the external signs by his natural parts, receiveth also the thing signified and presented, by the action of his spiritual faculty, to wit, by an operative faith a Aug. in joh. tr. 26. Hoc est manducare illam escam, & illum bibere potum, in Christo manner, & illum manentem in se habere: Ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo, & in quo non manet Christus, procul dubio nec manducat spiritualiter carnem eius, nec bibit eius fanguinem, licet carnaliter, & visibiliter premat dentibus Sacramentum corporis & sanguinis Christi: sed magis tantae 〈◊〉 Sacramentum ad iuditium sibi manducat & bibit, quia immundus presumpsit ad Christi accedere Sacramenta, quae aliquis non digne sumit nisi qui mundus est. Caietan. Opusc. to. 2. tr. 2. d. Euchar. ca 5. Manducatur verum Christi corpus in Sacramento, sed non corporaliter sed spiritualiter, Spiritualis manducatio, quae per animam fit ad Christi carnem in Sacramento existentem pertingit. , joh. 6.51.53, 54, 55, 56, 57 Secondly, for a corporal presence, when the thing signified and presented, is according to the natural substance thereof, contained under the shapes of the outward signs b Idem. Opuse. 〈◊〉. 2. tr. 2. d. Encharist. cap. 3. 〈◊〉. Cath. 〈◊〉 carnem Christi, non solum significari, sed contineri in hoc Sacramento. , and together with them conveyed into the mouth, stomach, and bodily parts. His most excellent Majesty and all his Orthodoxal people, believe real presence according to the first acceptation, but the fame is denied according to the latter acceptation. The jesuit being ignorant of this distinction, or else dissembling the same, disputeth as followeth: They which hold a real presence of Christ's body no less true than Papists themselves hold, cannot understand the words of Christ, This is my body, etc. figuratively. But his Majesty holdeth a real presence of Christ's body, no less true than Papists themselves hold, Ergo His Majesty cannot understand the words of Christ, This is my body figuratively. I answer. The Mayor of the former argument is denied: for a true real and effectual presence of Christ's body and blood, may be taught and delivered by a figurative a Vasques. in 3. p. Tho. to. 〈◊〉. disp. 180. cap. 5. n. 51. Supponendum imprimis est, in Scriptura non solum inveniri verb a vera in proprio sensu, & non figurato veram etiam non raro in solo figurato & metaphorico, etc. Rupert. in joh. li. 6. pag. 131. figuratio locutionis, veritatem rei non perimit, quemadmodum in parabola seminantis, verba parabolica, rem non 〈◊〉, vere seminantis. speech: for, First, the mystical head, is really, truly, and effectually present to the mystical body; and yet notwithstanding, this presence is taught in holy Scripture, by figurative words: Read Psal. 45. Salomon's song. Eph. 5. joh. 15. Secondly, one part of our Saviour's words about the Sacrament (to wit, This cup is the new Testament in my blood, Luc. 22.20.) is figurative, by confession of Romists themselves b Bellar. d. Eucharistia li. 1. cap. 11. Non negamus. In verbo Calix tropum esse. Tho. Aqui. pa. 3. q. 78. ar. 3. ad 1. Cum dicitur hic est Calix sanguinis mei est locutio figurata. Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. nu. 4. ar. 2. §. 4. Nugnus. Sup. 3. Tho. q. 78. ar. 3. Coninck. d. Sacram. q. 75. ar. 1. nu. 38. pa. 194. Petigian. 4. d. 10. q. 1. ar. 1. ad 2. arg. Non excludimus omnes figuratas & improprias locutiones, a forma huius Sacramenti, nam aliquot, sunt fine dubio admittendae. Ruard. ar. 13. Non oportet hic excludere quemlibet tropum, nam consecratio Calicis necessario aliquem requirit. , and yet they hold the thing expressed and meant by those words, to be really given. It is false therefore, which the jesuit and his consorts affirm, That Protestants expounding the words of Christ (This is my body) figuratively, do by this sense overthrow the true presence of Christ's body and blood in the holy Eucharist, and bring in only a fantastical and imaginary presence: for a mystical Presence, wrought by the power of the holy Ghost, is as real, and true a presence c Theod. Beza. c. Claud. d. Xaints. Apol. 〈◊〉. Scito a nobis spiritualem preceptionem dici, non quae sit imaginaria, non quae cogitatione tantum fiat, cui veritas non subsit: sed cuius sit organon, Dei quidem respectu, vis illa divini spiritus nobis plane inenarrabilis: nostra vero ex parte, animus noster, vera fide in oblatum sibi obiectum, Christum 〈◊〉 nostrum intueus, ut eum multo verius, certius, efficacius comprehendant, quam vel ipsa Symbola cernant oculi, tangant manus, lingua degustet, vel promissionis verba aures exaudiant. Itaque prorsus ridiculum te probas, qui haec duo, vere, & spiritualiter, inter se opponis, cum in rem minime fictam fides nostra feratur, & spiritu sancto duce praeeunte, falli spiritus noster non potest. in one kind, as a corporal and carnal presence is in another kind. But the Romists themselves are the men, which contending for their carnal Presence, give us a fantastical body of Christ, in stead of a true and natural body; and Fantastical Elements, to wit, Accidents, and empty shadows of Elements, in stead of the substantial creatures of Bread and Wine, by this absurd doctrine utterly subverting the holy Sacrament. Jesuit. Wherein, as your Majesty knows, they contradict the Euthim. Panop. p. 2. Tit. 22. Theop. in Marc. c. 14. 〈◊〉. Orthod. Fid. li. 4. ca 14. Anastasius Sanaita. Gaudent. Tract. 2. in Exod. Chrys. in ca 26. Math Hom. 83. De iis qui mist. initiant. ca 9 Epiphan. in Anchorat. Hilar. li. 8. d. Trinit. Cyril. Hierosol. Catechis. 4. ancient Church, which teacheth expressly, That Christ did not say, this is a figure of my body, but, this is my body; and exhorts us to believe Christ on his word, he said, This is my body; I pray you let us believe him whom we have believed, verity cannot utter untruth, and herein acknowledge with your Majesty, a most high and incomprehensible Mystery, which were no Mystery at all, the words being understood in a mere figurative sense. ANSWER. The question is not, Whether Christ uttered these words or not, This is my body, This cup is the new Testament in my blood. Neither is there any doubt of the verity of our Saviour's speech, or whether we must believe his word or not (to which purpose Gaudentius a Gaudent. Trac. 2. Sup. Exod. Credamus cui credimus, nescit mendacium veritas. speaketh;) but the question is, concerning the sense of the words, to wit, whether, This is my body, This cup is the new Testament in my blood, are to be expounded literally? Arguments for the negative part, are these which follow: First, if the substance of Bread and Wine be delivered in the Eucharist, our Adversary will grant b Read. the next Section, without granting Transubstantiation the words of Christ cannot be true, taken in the literal sense, etc. Richard. 4. d. 11. in fine ar. 4. q. 6. Explic. Substantia panis nunquam est corpus Christi, quamuis convertatur in ipsum. , that the words are figurative, because one individual substance, cannot be predicated of another, properly. But it shall be proved in the sections following, both out of Scripture, and Fathers, that the substance of Bread and Wine, are delivered in the holy Eucharist. Secondly, the words whereby the wine is consecrated, Luc. 22.20. are tropical, by the confession of our Adversaries. c Read. before pag. 396. Turrecremat. Sup. Decret. 3. pars. d. consecrat. Dist. 2. c. Panis in altari. Cum dicitur hic est Calix sanguinis mei est locutio figurativa, & potest dupliciter intelligi, uno modo secundum Metonymian, quia ponitur continens pro contento, ut sit sensus, Hic sanguis meus in Calais de quo fit hic mentio, quia sanguis Christi in hoc Sacramento consectatur in quantum est potus fidelium, quod non importatur in ratione sanguinis, & ideo oportuit hic designari per vas huic usui accommodatum: alio modo potest intelligi secundum Metaphoram, secundum quod, per Calicem intelligitur similitudinary, passio Christi, quae ad fimilitudinem Calicis, inebriat & sua amaritudine quasi hominem extra se ponit. Thirdly, if the words be taken properly, than the body of Christ, and the blood of Christ, are delivered, and received, without the soul and deity of Christ, for in propriety of speech, the body is a distinct, and diverse thing, from the soul, and likewise the blood. Fourthly, that which Christ delivered to be eaten and drunk, by his Disciples, he did sacramentally eat and drink himself, Luc. 22.15. as S. Hierome c Hieron. ad Hedib q. 2. Euthym. in Mat. 26. cap. 64. Chrys. in Mat. Hom. 83. , S. Chrysostome, Euthymius, with many Schoolmen d Aquin. 3. q. 〈◊〉 ar. 1. Suar. in 3. Th. q. 81 ar. 1. Com. Nugnus. ibid. Potrecta. Sup. Math. 26. Conclus. 3. Corrolar. 3. Vasques in 3, Disp. 216. n. 81. Conclusio est affirmans, in qua omnes Catholici quos ego legerim plane conveniunt. affirm. But if the words be literally understood, than he did eat his own body, and drink his own blood. Fiftly, if the words be understood literally, than Christ gave his passable and mortal body a Aquin. 3. q. 81. ar. 3. Nec ipsu corpus Christi quod in specie Sacramenti dabatur, impassibile erat. Nugnus in 3. p Th. ibid. Corpus exhibitum Apostolis, & sumptum ab ipso Christo Domino, vere erat passibile. Bellarm. d. Euchar. li. 1. ca 14. to the Disciples: but I trow, no jesuit will maintain that a body mortal and passable can be in many Hosts, or mouths at once; neither can the same be corporally eaten, without sensible touching and feeling thereof, or dividing one part thereof from another. Sixtly, if our Saviour's words be literally expounded; then Infidels, dogs, and swine, may b Turrecremat. Sup. Decree. d. Consecrat. dist. 2. ca Qui bene. Verum corpus Christi, manet adhuc sub speciebus, à brutis seu brutorum ore acceptis, & in ventrem traiectis, quamdiu species illae manent, hoc est quamdiu substantia panis maneret sicut etiam si proijccretur in Lutum. eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the Son of man: but all that eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the Son of man, have everlasting life, joh. 6.49.50, 51.54.56. Seaventhly, if our Saviour's words were literal, regular, and plain (as Papists pretend) than they themselves could not be distracted, and divided about the sense thereof. But they are notoriously divided c justinian. Com. 1. Cor. 11. v. 24. Ingens est, non solum inter Haereticos, sed etiam Catholicos, de horum verborum sensu, controversia. Vasques in 3. Tho. to. 3. disp. 101. n. 1. Circa pro nomina, non solum Haeretici, vary dogmatizant, verum etiam 〈◊〉, in tanta opinionum varietate sunt constituti, ut singulatim eas recensere nimis molestum esset Suares. in 3. p. Tho. q. 77. ar. 2. disp. 58. Sect. 8. Vasq. ibid. to. 3. disp. 181. ca 1. nu. 1. . First, Some of them say, that the pronoun (This) signifieth nothing d 〈◊〉. Sup. Decret. d. Consecr. Dist. 2. ca panis in Altari. Resp. quod circa hoc multiplex fuit opinio, Quidam n. dixerunt, quod in hac locutione, hoc est corpus meum haec dictio (hoc) nullam demonstrationem facit. Favent. in 4. Sent. Dist. 8. q. 2. Disp. 34. Citat pro hac opinion Jnnocent. d. Myster. Miss. li. 4. cap. 17. Durand. in 4. D. 8. q. 2. Ad. 1. Gabr. in Can. Miss. lect. 48. . Others say it signifies the Bread e Godfied. Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. m. 4. ar. 2. §. 3. Bonavent. 4. d. 8. ar. 1. Pronomen demonstrat, panis substantiam, sub Accidentibus quae oculis conspici potest. . Alex. Hales. Hocest corpus meum: sensus est, signatum hoc signo, quod est panis transubstantiandus in corpus meum, est corpus meum, that is, The sense of these words, This is my body, is, the Bread presently to be transubstantiate, into my body, is my body. Some say it signifieth the Accidents, and forms of Bread: others, it signifieth the body of Christ. Some say, it signifieth confusedly, that which is contained under the forms. And every of these opinions, hath sundry crooks, windings, and limitations f Read. Suares in 3. p. Tho. Disp. 58. Sect. 6. Henriq. Sum. d. Euchar. li. 8. ca 19 Coninck. d. Saeram. q. 78. ar. 5. num 41. Ruard. ar. 13. Caietan. Opuse. to 2. tr. 2. d. Euchar. c. 7. Individuum substantiae absque determinatione naturae tam panis quam Corporis Christi. . Secondly, Touching the Verb substantive, est (is) some expound it by continetur a Aquin. 3. q. 75. ar. 8. & q. 78. ar. 2. & 5. Bellarm. refert d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 11. & Argentin. 4. d. 8. ar. 2. , under these forms, my body is contained. Others expound it by Erit b Ibid. 4. d. 8. ar. 2. , This shall be my body, when the sentence is ended. Some say it signifieth Transmutatur c Richard. 4. d. 8. ar. 3. ad. 7. Marsilius 4. q. 6. ar. 1. Bonauent. 4. d. 8. ar. 1. q. 1. Gabr. in Can. Miss. Lect. 48. , It is changed and converted. Thirdly, Touching the words Corpus meum (my Body) Some say it is Materia prima, The first matter of Christ's Body. Others, The materiate Body with the reasonable soul. Others, A Body organical, without reference, to being a living Body, or a dead. Others, A living Body. Some say it is a Body without quantity, dimensions, or parts d Durand, 4. Dist. 10. q. 2. . Others, A Body, having quantity, without extension, figure, & order of parts e Occam. 4. Dist. 10. q. 4. . Others, A body having quantity, without extrinsecall reference to place f Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 3. cap. 4. & l. 1. c. 2. & 14. , an immaterial Body, like unto Angels and Spirits g Ibid. lib. 1. ca 2. & cap. 14. 〈◊〉. Opusc. to. 2. tr. 2. c. 5. , and they resemble the same by the Image of man's face reflecting in a glass h Thyreus d. Appar. Sacram. Petigian. 4. d. 10. ar. 4. Viguerius. Instit. c. 16. v. 7. : A Body having the stature of a man, and yet contained in every crumb of bread i Suar. in. 3. p. Tho. Disp. 52. Sect. 3. Capreolus 4. Dist. 10. q. 4. ar. 3. Petig. 4. d. 10. q. 1. 〈◊〉. 4. dub. 1. Aquin. 3. q. 76. ar. 2.3. Soto 4. d. 10. q. 1. ar. 2.3. 〈◊〉. Ab 〈◊〉. Dial. 4. §. 244. Victoria d. 〈◊〉. n. 64. Vivald. d. Euchar. c. 7. n. 15. Vasques 3. disp. 88 c. 3. Greg. Val. to 4. disp. 6. q. 4. punct. 2. Bonacin. d. Sacram. d. Euchar. disp. 4. q. 3. punct. 5. prop. 3. Christus quoad substantiam & accidentia, non solum existit sub qualibet specie, verum etiam sub qualibet parte specierum. . Thus whiles Romists deny, that there is a figure in our Saviour's words, they fall into innumerable absurdities, & in stead of the true and perfect body of Christ, crucified for us, and communicated in the holy Eucharist, they reach us a fantastical body, and a very vain shadow, and Image of Christ's real body. But the Adversary, to make the contrary Tenet appear Catholic, affirmeth, That the ancient Church expressly denied our Saviour's words to be figurative, and in his Margin he pointeth out certain Authors, Euthymius, Theophilact, Damascene, etc. I answer, although these Authors (being none of them ancient, but post nati) affirm, that Christ in the holy Eucharist delivereth, not only a figure of his body, but his true body, (which is also our Tenet) yet they say not, that there is no trope or figure in our Saviour's words. Theophylacts k Theoph. sup. Marc. c. 14. words are, Non tantum figura & exemplar est corporis Christi, etc. It is not only a figure or similitude of Christ's body. Euthymius l Euthim. sup. Math. 26. cap. 64. 〈◊〉 vidit jesaias: carbo autem non simpliciter lignum, sed lignum ignitum. , Esaias beheld a fiery coal, the coal was not simply or only wood, but fiery wood, such is this fiery coal in this great Mystery. Secondly, It is to be observed, that these Authors, teaching that bread and wine are Sacramentally or mystically converted, do also maintain, that the said Elements remain in their material substance a Chrys. ad Caesar. Monach. Antequam sanctificetur panis, panem nominamus, divina autem illum sanctificante gratia, mediante 〈◊〉 liberatus est, ab appellatione panis, dignus autem habitus est, dominici corporis appellatione, Etsi Natura panis in ipso permansit. Euthim. in Math. 26. c. 64. Non corrum puntur 〈◊〉, neque in secessum abscedunt, 〈◊〉 in substantiam coassumuntur spiritualem eius qui 〈◊〉. Naturalis cibus est & potus panis ac vini, quae proponuntur, supernaturalis vero efficax eorum operatio. 〈◊〉. Tract. 2. in Exod. cum panem consecrarum & vinum discipulis suis porrigeret sic ait hoc est corpus meum, etc. , and that Christ's body and blood are received into the spiritual powers of the soul; and they say b Chrys. in Math. ho. 83. Reipsa nos corpus suum efficit. Theoph. in joh. c. 6. Qui manducat me vivit propter me, dum quodammodo miscetur mihi, & 〈◊〉 in me, etc. Cyprian. d. caena. Dom. n. 18. Greg. 〈◊〉. Orat. Chat. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. farther, That Christ changeth the worthy Receivers into his Body. Jesuit. As for some places of Fathers brought to the contrary, how they are to be understood your Majesty is not ignorant: Aug. in Psal. 3. Aug. contra Adamant. cap. 12. Saint Augustine saying, That Christ gave to his Disciples a figure of his Body and Blood, spoke not of a bare empty figure, but of the figure of a thing really present; as likewise in another place, when he saith, Christ affirmed it was his Body, when he gave a sign of his Body, though there he may seem to speak in the opinion of the Manichees, who held, That Christ had not true flesh, but a mere figure, shape, and shadow of flesh: against whom in that place, he undertakes to prove, That the figure of a thing may be termed the thing itself (Argumento ad hominem) that Christ said, This is my Body, when he gave but a figure of his Body, to wit, as you think. Tertullian hath this speech, Christ taking bread into his hands, and distributing it to his Disciples, made the same his Body, saying, Hoc est corpus meum, id est, figura corporis mei; where, figura corporis mei, is referred, not unto corpus meum, as an explication thereof, but unto hoc, in this manner, hoc id est figura corporis mei, est corpus meum. This to be Tertullians' meaning, appears Tertul. l. 4. Contra Marcionem. by the drift of his discourse in that place; for Tertullian is to show, that whereas in the Old Testament Bread was afigure of the Body of Christ, as appears by the words of the Prophet, Mittamus lignum in panem eius, id est crucem in corpus eius: Christ in the New Testament, made this figure to be truly and really his Body, taking Bread into his hands, saying this, that is, This figure of my Body is my Body, as if he said, Bread (which anciently was a figure of my Body) I do now make to be truly and really my Body; and this is an usual phrase in Tertullian, Tertull. Contra Prax. c. 29. who not to interrupt the sentence of holy Scripture, addeth his explication of the subject (not presently, but) after the Attribute, as when he said, Christus mortuus est, id est, unctus, the sense whereof is, Christus, id est, unctus mortuus est. ANSWER. Many of the Fathers a Chrysost. in Math. Hom. 83. & in Epist. Heb. Hom. 17. Gelasius c. Eutich. Theod. Dial. 2. Dionis. Hierarch. cap. 3. Gregor. Nazian. Apolog. Macar. Hom. 27. Ambros. Offic. lib. 1. cap. 48. Hieron. sup. Math. 26. de Consecrat. Dist. 2. c. Accipite. Dionis. Hierarch. c. 2. & 3. Aug. lib. 83. q. 61. , treating of the Sacramental signs, call them Figures, Representations, Similitudes, Memorials, Antitipes, etc. of the Body and Blood of Christ. But that which is a figure, similitude, and representation of a thing, is not properly the same. Saint Augustine b August. de Doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. Figura est precipiens passioni Domini esse communicandum, & suaviter atque utiliter recondendum in memoria quod caro eius pro nobis crucifixa & vulnerata sit. , It is a figurative speech, commanding us to be partakers of the Lords Passion, and sweetly and profitably to keep in mind, that his flesh was crucified, and wounded for us. The Lord did not stick to say, This is my body, when he gave the sign of his body c August. in Psal. 98. . Origen d Orig. in cap. 15. Math. , This I speak of the typical, and figurative body. Saint Ambrose e Ambros. d. Sacram. lib. 4. cap. 5. , Which is the figure of the body and blood of the Lord jesus. Saint Chrysostome f 〈◊〉. Imperf. Math. Hom. 11. , In the sanctified vessel, there is not the true body of Christ, but a mystery of his body is there contained. Gratians Gloss g Gratian. d. Consecrat. Dist. 2. §. Hoc est Prosper. , The Divine bread, which representeth the flesh of Christ, is called, The body of Christ, but improperly. Beda h Beda in 〈◊〉. 22. , Substituting his flesh and blood, in the figure of bread and wine. Druthmarus i Druthmar. sup. Math. c. 26. , The blood of Christ is aptly figured thereby. Bertram k Bertram. l. d. corp. & sang. Dom. Paschas. 〈◊〉. Sacram. Corp. Dom. cap. 12. , Bread and Wine, is figuratively the Body and Blood of Christ. And Tertullian more ancient than any of these, saith, That Bread representeth the Body of Christ l Tertul. c. Marc, l. 1. c. 14. : And he saith in two places m Ibid. l. 3. c. 19 & l. 4. c. 40. , That it is a figure of Christ's Body. The jesuit in his answer to these plain testimonies, taketh notice only of S. Augustine, and Tertullian: and concerning the first, he saith, that S. Augustine spoke not of a bare and empty figure, but of the figure of a thing really present: but this answer is deceitful, for the Sacramental elements are a true and lively figure, and not a bare and empty sign of the Body and Blood of Christ. And although the Body and Blood of Christ are not essentially contained and enclosed in the shapes, or material substance of the elements, yet they are really communicated by the holy Ghost, at and by the faithful and worthy receiving of these divine mysteries. The second place of S. Augustine admitteth not the jesuits solution: for one difference between the Manichee, and this Father, was, concerning Moses his words, Deut. 12.23. Thou shalt not eat the Blood, for the Blood is the Soul. S. Augustine saith a Aug. c. Adimant. c. 12. , Possum interpretari praeceptum illud in signo esse positum, I may expound that commandment, by saying, it was set down in a sign for Christ doubted not to affirm b Non enim Dominus dubitavit dicere, Hoc est corpus meum cum signum daret corporis sui. , This is my body, when he gave a sign of his Body. In these words S. Augustine teacheth, that as the Blood is called the Soul, after the manner of a sign, so likewise, the Bread in the holy Eucharist is called the body of Christ, because it is a sign of his body. This similitude proveth, that S. Augustine held our Saviour's words, This is my Body, to be a figurative enunciation, which is the thing affirmed by us. Tertullian c Tertul. c. Marc. li. 4. c. 40. Acceptum panem & distributum Discipulis, corpus suum illum fecit, hoc est corpus meum dicendo, id est figura corporis mei, panem corpus suum appellat. affirmeth expressly of Bread, which he received into his hand, and distributed to his disciples, that it is a figure of Christ's Body. And the Adversary's 〈◊〉, expounding his words in this manner, The figure of my body is my body, is voluntary, or rather sophistical, for the words immediately following are, he called bread his Body, and in other places, he maketh bread the subject of the proposition d Idem. c. Marc. li. 1. c. 14. Nec panem quo ipsum corpus suum representat, li. 3. ca 19 Deus in Euangelio revelavit panem corpus suum appellans. Jdem. c. jud. c. 10. , This is my Body. But the accidents and shape of bread, are not bread: neither did our Saviour, when he said, This is my Body, demonstrate the form only of Bread, or command the forms only of Bread and Wine to be corporally received; for he did demonstrate that which was sacramentally changed, but the accidents of Bread and Wine are not changed into Christ's Body and Blood, by the confession of Papists themselves. Jesuit. This supposed, I infer that the body of Christ is present in the mystical Supper, not only to the faithful that receive the Sacrament, nor only to the place or Church where the holy Synaxis is celebrated, but under the forms of Bread in the very same place therewith. This manner of presence is clearly consequent upon the precedent, and that granted, this cannot be denied. For the reason for which Christians hold the body of Christ to be really & truly present in the Sacrament, is, because they cannot otherwise in proper and plain sense verify the word of Christ, to say of Bread, this is my body. Wherefore we must either put no real presence at all, or else put such a real presence as is able to verify the foresaid speech, in proper and rigorous sense. But if the body of Christ be not in the same place with the consecrated Bread contained under the forms thereof, it cannot be said to be verily and really the body of Christ. For though we should suppose the Body of Christ to leave heaven, and be substantially present in the Church where the Sacrament is given, yet this supposed presence would no ways further the verifying of the words of Christ, This is my Body, except his body be vailed and covered with the sensible accidents of Bread, so that it be demonstrated by them; and pointing unto them, one may truly say, This is the Body of Christ. For why should consecrated Bread be termed truly and substantially the Body of Christ, if his body be not so much as in the same place with it? Wherefore the Fathers affirm, that Christ is so in this Sacrament, as he is vailed with the semblances of Bread, as S. Cyrill of Jerusalem in his Book (highly commended by Dr. Whitaker, Whitaker de sacris Scripture. Cyril. Hierosol. Catech. Mysta. 4. Calvin. in Ep. 1. ad Cor. c. 11. Institut. li. 4. ca 17. §. 32. saith.) Let us therefore with all certitude receive the Body and Blood of Christ: For under the form of Bread is given Thee his Body. Yea Calvin saith, In the supper, Christ Jesus, to wit, his Body and Blood, is truly given under the signs of Bread and Wine. ANSWER. Although the mystical words be not understood properly and rigorously, yet we may truly and really (though spiritually) eat the Flesh, and drink the Blood of the son of man, by a living Faith, joh. 6.54. a Aug. d. Doctr. Christ. li 3. c. 16. Figura est, praecipiens passioni Domini esse communicandum, & suavitèr 〈◊〉 utilitèr recondendum in memoria, quod pro nobis caro eius 〈◊〉 & vulnerata sit. Id. d. verb. Dom. Ser. 33. Nolite 〈◊〉 fauces sed 〈◊〉. Id. in joh. 〈◊〉. 25. Vt quid 〈◊〉 dentem & ventrem, crede & manducasti. . 1. Cor. 10.16. The food which entereth into the body must be locally present, but this food entereth not into the body, but it is the bread of life which nourisheth the substance of the soul, saith S. Ambrose a Ambros. d. Sacram. li. 5. ca 4. Non iste panis est qui vadit in corpus, sed ille panis vitae aeternae qui animae nostrae substantiam fulcit. Id. in Lu. l. 6. c. 8. Fide tangirur, fide videtur, non tangitur corpore non occulis comprehenditur. d. Consecrat. Dist. 2. c. Quià corpus, Sacrun Dei tui, corpus & sanguinem fide respice, honora, mirare, ment continge, cordis manu suscipe, & maximè haustu interiore assumè. . But the Obiector demandeth, Why consecrated bread should be termed truly & substantially the body of Christ, if his body be not so much as in the same place with it? Our answer is, because of the Sacramental union between the signs, and the body of Christ represented b Aug. Ep. 23. Si Sacramenta quandam similitudinem 〈◊〉 rerum quarum Sacramenta sunt, non haberent, omninò Sacramenta non essent. Ex hac autem similitudine plerumquè etiàm ipsarum rerum nomina accipiunt. Sicut ergo secundum quendam modum, Sacrametum corporis Christi, corpus Christi est Sacramentum sanguinis Christi, sanguis Christi est: Ita Sacramentum fidei fides est. Bernard. Serm. d. Coena Dom. Sacramentum dicitur sacrum signum, siuè sacrum secretum. Multa quidem fiunt proptèr se tantum, alia vero proptèr alia designanda, & ipsa dicuntur & sunt signa, ut enim de usualibus sumamus exemplum, datur annulus proptèr annulum absolutè, & nulla est significatio; datur etiam ad investiendum aliquem de hereditate & signum est. Ità ut iàm dicere possit qui accepit annulum, annulus non valet quicquam, sed haereditas est quam quaerebam, in hunc itaquè modum appropinquans passioni Dominus, de gratia sua investiri curavit suos ut invisibilis gratia, signo aliquo visibili praestaretur. Ad hoc instituta sunt omnia Sacramenta, ad hoc Eucharistiae participatio, & Chrysma, ad hoc deniquè ipse Baptismus, initium omnium Sacramentorum, in quo complantamur mortis eius similitudini. Sicut enim in exterioribus diversa sunt signa, ut què in coepto immoremur exemplo, multa sunt investiturae, per quas investimur: verbi gratia investitur Canonicus per librum, Abbas per bacculum, Episcopus per bacculum & annulum, sicut in eiusmodi rebus est sic & divisiones gratiarum diversis traditae sunt Sacramentis. Ambros. d. eye qui initiantur, c. 9 Post consecrationem sanguis nuncupatur, etc. , and spiritually communicated to the worthy receivor, by that sign. As a King's crown may be called a kingdom, because it is a sign thereof, and the placing thereof upon the head may be a means of conferring a kingdom. So likewise in Sacramental speeches, the outward sign is called by the name of the thing signified, because it representeth it, and is by divine institution an effectual instrument to apply and communicate the same, 1. Cor. 10.16. And by the same reason, Christ's Body may be said to be in the bread, and his Blood in the Cup, not by local presence, or as wine is contained in a vessel (which S. Cyrill affirmeth not) but virtually, and by relation and spiritual donation, because when the Minister delivereth the outward sign, and the Communicant receiveth the same, The holy Ghost c Turrecrem. sup. Decret. 3. pars d. consecrat. Dist. 2. cap. Corpus. Attribuitur Spiritu sancto, etc. est enim amor patris & filij. Aug. d. Trin. li. 3. ca 4. delivereth and communicates the thing signified to the believing soul. Jesuit. Whence it is also consequent, that the whole body of Christ is contained under a consecrated Host, be the same never so little; for by this mystery, the body of Christ is demonstrable by the sensible accidents, so that consecrated bread may be termed truly, really, & substantially, the body of Christ, not a parcel or part thereof only. But were not the body of Christ wholly and entirely under the forms of bread, consecrated bread could not truly and properly be termed the body of Christ, but a sole part and 〈◊〉 thereof. Again, we have no reason to believe the body of Christ is truly and really present in the Sacrament, but only to the end that it may in the Supper be truly and really eaten, to nourish and feed men's souls. And if he be eaten only mentally by Faith, we have no ground to think that he is present more than mentally by Faith, the presence of Aug. c. Adverse. legis & Prop. ca 9 Fideli cord & ore suscipim' Christum jesum. Cypr. d. Lapfis. 〈◊〉. li. d. Resurr. carnis, caro corpore Christi vescitur. Iren. li. 5. ca 2. Nyss. cat. Chrys. ho. 83. irr Math. Theod. in ca 11. 1. ad Cor. Leo, ser. 6. de jeiunio septimi mensis. Quod side creditur ore sumitur. his body being ordained unto the manducation thereof; for else, why did he institute this Sacrament under the elements of Bread and Wine? But if Christ be not present wholly and totally under the form of Bread, he cannot be truly and really eaten: Why then is his body brought from heaven to be there really present? or how can the body of Christ being coextended in place according to the natural dimensions thereof, enter into the mouth of the Receiver, yea in at the mouth of the wicked and unworthy, as Fathers teach? ANSWER. That body which is neither circumscriptively, nor definitively present in the outward signs, is not substantially contained in the same. The body of Christ is neither of these ways present in the outward signs a Turrecrem. sup. Decret. 3. pars d. Consecrat. dist. 2. ca Quid sit. Corpus Christi, non est in Sacramento circumscriptiuè, quià non est ibi secundum commensurationem propriae quantitatis ad locum, nec est ibi definitiuè cum non sit ibi ita quod non alibi est. : not the first way, for in circumscription, the continent must be as large or ample as the thing contained: not the second way, for that which is definitively in one place, cannot at the same time be substantially in another. And yet, although the body of Christ is not according to his material substance wholly and entirely under the outward elements, notwithstanding the bread may truly be termed the body of Christ, because of a relative, pactional b Estius 4. d. 1. §. 5. Virtus atquè efficientia quam patres sacramentis tribuunt, intelligi potest efficax ordinatio alicuius ad aliquid, ut videlicet illo posito, hoc quoquè ad quod ordinatumest, certo ponatur. Favent. 4. d. 1. q. 4. disp. 2. c. 5. etc. 6. Exhibita illa exteriori ceremonia & signo externo, recordatur Deus pacti sui, & svam promissionem implet. , and Sacramental Union, and Donation of the things signified, together with the signs worthily received: For God Almighty hath made a Covenant with his Church, and faithful people, to nourish their Souls with the lively food of the Body and Blood of Christ, joh. 6.32. He hath also appointed a Sacrament, in which there shall be made a representation and commemoration of his passion until his coming again, 1. Cor. 11.26, and he hath annexed a promise thereunto, which is, that as often as the same is lawfully administered, he will communicate to all worthy receivers, the Body and Blood of Christ, 1. Cor. 10.16. Now then, when the outward Sacrament is administered and received, as is aforesaid, God remembering his Covenant, reacheth unto the souls of his people, by the powerful hand of the Holy Ghost, the very body of his Son crucified, and his blood shed, and poured out, and hereby feedeth and nourisheth them to eternal life. The Object, or thing carnally and bodily received, is the Elemental Creature. The Object and thing received spiritually and internally, is the body and blood of Christ, crucified upon the Crosse. The Donour and distributer of this inward gift, is the blessed Trinity, the Son of God himself, and by appropriation, the Holy Ghost. The eating and drinking of it, is by Faith a Caietan. Opusc. 〈◊〉. 2. 〈◊〉. 2. d. Euchar. cap. 1. Manducare 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sacramentum, est per fidem formatam in charitate, in Christo manner, & è converso Christum in ipso 〈◊〉. Jbid. c. 2. Caro Christi vera spiritualiter concludenda est in hoc Sacramento, & comesta 〈◊〉 in hoc Sacramento, that vitam aeternam. Et usque adeo spirituali 〈◊〉, hoc 〈◊〉, ut 〈◊〉, quod quantum 〈◊〉 Christi 〈◊〉 in Sacramento, nisi spiritualiter manducetur non prodest 〈◊〉. , john 6. 29. 35.40.47. And thus if it be demanded, What kind and manner of Presence we maintain? It is answered: First, a mental and intellectual presence, by way of representation. Secondly, an exhibitive presence, by way of donation and Tradition, on God's part; and faithful reception on man's part, whereby we possess the thing given, and are united mystically to Christ our Head. Now to the effecting hereof, local and corporeal presence is not necessary. A father and his son may be absent by distance of place, one from the other, yet the son is truly and really united with his father, so as his father's nature is in him, and he hath right in his father's person and estate. A man's goods may be at Constantinople, and yet he living in England is a true possessor, or owner and proprietary of them, and he may communicate and use them, and distance of place hindereth not his right and propriety. Now although there be a difference between things temporal and spiritual, yet thus far there is agreement, That even as we possess temporal means, being locally absent; so likewise we may receive and partake Christ's body and blood locally distant, by the power of Faith, and by the donation of the Holy Ghost, according to a celestial and spiritual manner. For in Baptism b Tertull. d. Resur. Carn. cap. 8. & cap. 48. we are washed with the blood of Christ, and we put on the Lord jesus, Gal. 3.27: Now that which is absent, cannot wash, or be put on, in a natural manner, but a spiritual union and application is necessary: Even so, in the holy Eucharist, we are nourished with the body and blood of our Saviour; but to the performance hereof, local presence, or presence by indistance of place, is of no use; but a spiritual union and application is sufficient. These things premised, the jesuits Argument is answered as followeth: First, The body and blood of Christ are in such sort truly and really presented in the holy Eucharist, as that they are truly and really eaten, not bodily, but spiritually, by Faith. Secondly, Although they be received by Faith only, yet they are truly and really communicated, by the powerful operation of the Holy Ghost. Thirdly, Christ's body is not brought locally from Heaven unto Earth; but being crucified upon the Cross, is symbolically represented upon Earth by the Sacramental signs, and actions; and being locally at this day sitting on God's right hand in Heaven, is also truly and effectually communicated and given to worthy Communicants. Fourthly, The Sacrament is not instituted in vain, although Christ's body and blood are not locally present in the outward Elements: For if upon the worthy receiving of the Sacrament, the Holy Ghost truly and effectually communicates unto us Christ's body and blood, to be the food and life of our souls, and doth not so effectually and fruitfully communicate the same by any other means; then there is great use of this Sacrament, and unspeakable benefit received by it, although Christ's body and blood are not locally contained within the outward signs. Fifthly, The Fathers teach not, that Infidels and wicked persons receive in, at their bodily mouth, the natural body and blood of Christ. First, The Fathers cited in the Margin of the jesuits book, speak not of wicked and unworthy persons. Secondly, They affirm expressly, That Infidels and wicked persons receive the body of Christ only Sacramento tenus a Aug. d. Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 25. & in 〈◊〉. tr. 27. Huius rei Sacramentum etc. Sumitur à quibusdam ad vitam à quibusdam ad exitium. Res vero ipsa cuius & Sacramentum est, omni homini ad vitam nulli ad exitium, quicumque ei' particeps fuerit. , that is, according to the visible sign; and not revera, in truth, and in deed; Panem Domini, non Panem Dominum b Id. in joh. tr. 59 , The Bread of the Lord, and not the Bread which is the Lord (or the Lord's Body.) The Author bearing the name of S. Cyprian c Cypr. d. Coena Dom. n. 22. , saith, Lambunt Petram, Wicked men (like Aesop's Fox) lick the outside of the Rock, but suck not out the Honey. They receive (saith Bernard d Bern. in Cant. Ser. 33. ) Corticem Sacramenti & furfur Carnis, the outward Bark of the Sacrament, and the Bran of Christ's flesh. Beda e Beda, sup. Exo. d. Agno Paschali. , Omnis Infidelis non vescitur carne Christi, No unbeliever eateth the flesh of Christ. Hilarius f Hilar. d. 〈◊〉. l. 8. , Panis qui descendit de Coelo, non nisi ab eo accipitur qui Dominum habet & Christi membrum est, The Bread which came down from Heaven, is received of him only, which hath the Lord, and is a member of Christ. Cyril of Alexandria a Cyril. in joh. lib. 4. cap. 14. Impij cum non vivant, nec reformentur ad immortalitatem, non manducant illam carnem. , For as much as wicked men do not live, nor are reform to immortality, they eat not that flesh. Origen b Orig. in Matth. cap. 15. pag. 17. Ambros. d. Sacram. lib. 5. cap. 1. Bibit populus Dei, qui gratiam Dei consecutus est. Et cap. 5. Qui manducaverit hoc corpus fiet ei remissio peccatorum. , If it were possible for one, persevering a wicked man, to eat the Word, which became Flesh, being living Bread, it would not have been written, Whosoever eateth this Bread, shall live for ever. S. Chrysostome c Chrysost. ex var. in Matth. Hom. 9 , This Bread filleth the mind, and not the belly; this is our Bread, and the Bread of Angels. Thirdly, Whereas some of the Fathers say, That the body of Christ is received into the mouth; they understand by the body of Christ, the Sacrament or outward sign of his body: as appeareth not only by their own Exposition, where they call the outward sign a figure of Christ's body d August. contra Adimant. c. 12. Non dubitavit Dominus dicere, Hoc est corpus meum, cum signum daret corporis 〈◊〉. Tertull. c. Marc. lib. 4. c. 40. August. in Levit. q. 57 Solet res quae significat eius rei nomine quam significat nuncupari. Idem, epist. 23. Exhac similitudine plerumque etiam ipsorum retum nomina accipiunt. ; but also because they say, the body of Christ is visibly eaten, and his blood is visibly drunk e Idem, d. verb. Apost. Serm. 2. Ambros. d. Sacram. li. 4. ca 4. Similitudinem praetiosi sanguinis bibis. . Also they affirm, That the body of Christ is spiritual food, and passeth not into the body f August. in Psa. 98. Ambros. d. Sacram. li. 5. c. 4. Non iste Panis est qui vadit in corpus, sed ille Panis vitae aeternae, qui animae nostrae substantiam fulcit. , but into the soul. Jesuit. Wherefore, seeing we must of necessity grant, as I have proved, That some part of the Body of Christ is under consecrated Bread, penetrating the same, and occupying the same place with it, Why should we doubt, to believe the whole Body of Christ to be wholly and totally in every consecrated Host? ANSWER. The Question is, Whether the whole Body of Christ is entirely and totally in every consecrated Host? that is, Whether the true and substantial Body of Christ, which is an humane body, essentially and in kind differing from a Spirit, and having magnitude, proportion, order, and distinction of parts, is contained under every small crumb of consecrated Bread? The jesuit propugneth this Paradox in manner following. Jesuit. For if we can believe that two bodies be in the same place at once, we may as easily believe the same of twenty. And if we grant that one part of Christ's body doth penetrate, that is, occupy the same room, with the quantity of Bread, Why should we not think, that the rest of his parts may also do the like? Our Saviour saith, That it is as easy Mat. 19 v. 24. & 26. for a Camel to pass through a needle's eye, as for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven, adding, Though these things be impossible to men, yet all is possible unto God. If then God can put a whole Camel in the eye of a needle, is he not able to put the whole body of Christ within the bigness of a consecrated Host? The body being mortal and passable could penetrate the body of his Mother, and come out of her womb through the same still remaining entire, as we profess in the Creed to believe, Natum de Maria Virgin, Why then may not the same body, being now glorious, immortal, and (as the Apostle 1 Cor. 15. 44. speaks) spiritual, penetrate the quantity of the Bread, and enclose itself wholly and entirely within the small compass thereof: and Christ that made heavy things not to weigh, as the body of Peter walking on the water; coloured things Math. 15. 26. not to be seen, as his own person, which he so oft made invisible Luc. 4. 30. to the jews; bright things not to shine, as his body joh. 20. after his Resurrection, more bright than the Sun, did not shine in so many apparitions to his Disciples; finally, a flaming furnance not to burn the bodies of the three children, Dan. 3. 30. cast into the midst thereof, Why may not he keep a body from occupying a place, or from extruding another body from the place where it is? for to occupy a place or to extrude thence another body, is but an effect consequent and flowing from the nature of a quantitative substance, as to weigh, to be seen, to shine, to burn, be the natural and necessary effects of heavy, coloured, bright, and fiery things. ANSWER. We must believe whatsoever God hath revealed. But God hath revealed that Christ hath a true body, and all proprieties and attributes essential to a true body, Heb. 2.16. Luc. 24. 39 And therefore the Romish doctrine, which converteth the individual, and finite body of Christ, into a Spirit, and fancy, and destroyeth the true properties of the same, affirming that is not circumscript, palpable, or situated in one particular place at once, is erroneous a Aug. Serm. d. Mont. c. 9 Corpora quae non possunt esse nisi in loco in joh. 〈◊〉. 31. Christus homo secundum Corpus in loco est & de loco migrat, & cum ad alium locum venerit in eo loco unde venit non est. Epist. 57 Spatia locorum tolle corporibus & nusquam erunt & quia nusquam erunt nec erunt. Sup. Psal. 86. Angustias omnipotentiae corpora patiuntur, nec ubique possunt esse nec semper: Divinitas autem ubique presto est. ; neither can that be one and the same individual body, between which, are interposed many bodies: but between the one individual body of Christ in heaven, and the same body in the Eucharist, many other bodies, to wit, the several bodies of the Heavens, the Air, the Pixe, etc. are interposed; and the body of Christ in heaven, is not joined to the sacramental body, by continuation or indivision. But it is objected, a whole Camel may be in the eye of a needle, Math. 19 24. 26. The passable body of Christ, passed through the Virgin's womb, the same being closed and not opened; Peter's heavy body walked above the waters; the bodies of the three young men continued in the fiery oven, vnconsumed, or scorched; Christ's body was diverse times invisible, and once it was resplendent as the Sun, etc. Therefore the now glorified body of Christ, by the omnipotent power of God, may be separate from circumscription, length, and thickness, and other effects and properties of individual humane bodies. It is answered, the examples mentioned in the Antecedent, are set upon the Rack: for our Saviour affirmeth not, that a Camel continuing in his ordinary quantity, can pass through the eye of a small needle; but he saith only, that this may as easily be fulfilled, as a rich man b Hier. Mat. 19 Hoc dicto oftenditur non disficile esse, sed impossibile. Si enim quomodo Camelus non potest intrare per foramen acus, sic diues non potest intrare in regna coelorum nullus Divitum saluus erit. Sed etsi legamus Esaiam, quomodo Cameli Madian & Cepha veniant Hierusalem cum donis 〈◊〉 muneribus; & qui prius curui 〈◊〉 & vitiorum pravitate distorti, ingrediantur 〈◊〉 Jerusalem; videbimus quo modo & isti Cameli, quibus Divites comparantur, cum deposuerint gravem Sarcinam peccatorum, & 〈◊〉 corporis 〈◊〉, intrare possunt per angustam portam & arctam viam quae ducit ad vitam. Aug. q. Euang. li. 2. ca 〈◊〉. (which maketh Mammon his God) may enter into the kingdom of heaven. Proverbial speeches, Parables c Athanas. c. Arian. orat. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. and suppositions, are not according to every passage in them, to be strained or expounded literally Luc. 17.6. Math. 7.3. If it be further said, it followeth in the Text, All things are possible with God. Math. 19 26. Marc. 10. 27. Luc. 18.27. Our Answer is, First, these words are referred to the latter part of Christ's speech, touching the rich man's entrance into heaven, and not to the Camels passing thorough the needle's eye a Ambros. Ser. 4. Caiet. in Math. cap. 19 . Secondly, all things agreeable to truth b Theoph. Marc. 10. Dicimus Deus verax est, facere autem id quod factum est, quod non sit factum est mendacium, quo pacto faciet verax mendacium? Prius 〈◊〉 perderet naturam suam: & ita qui sic loquuntur 〈◊〉 loquuntur: ac si 〈◊〉. Num potest Deus non esse Deus. , and which God will have done, are possible: but that it is agreeable with Truth, for a Camel retaining his quantity, with the whole body, to pass thorough the eye of a needle; or that God will have this to be, or that it is his will, that the body of Christ shall be separated from circumscription, and continency of place, deserveth to be credited when the Adversaries prove it by Divine Revelation, or by other demonstration. Secondly, The Scripture affirmeth not, nor yet the Apostles Creed, that the blessed Virgin in 〈◊〉 travel, in Puerperio, bare Christ in a different manner from other women, Luk. 2.23. and what a sophistical inference is this, the Creed hath, Borne of the Virgin Marie, meaning according to conception, generation, and clearness from the company of man, Ergo, the body of the blessed Virgin was not opened at the time of Christ's birth. Also many Fathers c Tertul. d. car. Chri. c. 23. Etsi virgo concepit, in partu suo nupsit, ipsa patefacti corporis lege in quo nihil interfuit de vi masculi admissi, an emissi, id est, illud sexus resignavit. Haec denique vulua est propter quam & de aliis Scriptum omne masculinum adaperiens vuluam Sanctum vocabitur Domino. Orig. Hom. 14. in Luc. Ambros. in Luc. lib. 2. cap. 2. Vid. Suar. in 3. to. 2. Disp. 5. Sect. 2. & Ib. Disp. 16. Sect. 1. Chrys. Ambros. Origen. Greg. Niss. etc. Sentiunt 〈◊〉 singulari modo 〈◊〉 vuluam matris. , and some Schoolmen d Durand. 4. d. 44. q. 6. Palud. 4. d. 44. q. 3. ar. 3. deny this, and therefore from an Antecedent, doubtful and in question, a consequent or conclusion of Faith cannot be inferred. Thidly, The example of Peter, Math. 14. 29. and the three young men Daniel 3. prove not the question; for the miracle might be in the water, and in the fire e 〈◊〉. Com. Dan. 3. Potuit Deus, etc. pa. 178. Cornel. d. Lap. in Daniel. 3. v. 49. Hij pueri abigne seruati sunt. 1. Quia Angelus excussit ignem, eumque ab eis abegit, etc. 2. Quia auram quasi ventum 〈◊〉 loco & vice ignis supernaturaliter induxit, etc. 3. Deus huius venti actionem scilicet refrigerationem continuavit, ac consequenter ignis vicini si quis erat actionem in eam partem ubi tres pueri erant, vel habetavit vel 〈◊〉, vel omnino suspendit, concursum suum ei subtrahendo. , and not in the bodies of St. Peter, and the three young men. St. Luke c. 4.30. affirmeth not, that our Saviour's body was invisible, but that he passed thorough the midst of the people: and yet admitting, that he was then invisible, the cause might be in the people's eyes, Luke 24. 16. or in the Air, and not in his body, Genes. 19 11. Neither is actual gravity, or actual combustibilitie, or visibility so inseparable from a body, as circumscription and distinction of parts. Lastly, For a body to be resplendent, and to shine as the Sun in glory, is not repugnant to the nature of the body, but is of the perfection and happiness thereof, Matth. 13. 43. But that an individual body may be in many places at once, and in diverse forms, and according to diverse actions a Petig. 4. d. 10. q. 2. ar. 2. Occhagavia. d. Sacramentis d. Euchar. tr. 1. q. 22. n. 6. Tribarn. 4. d. 10. q. 2. Disp. 33. , and have no reference to place, nor any properties, inward or outward of a true body, is not Divine verity, but an audacious fiction, or rather an incongruous dream, and contradictory Chimaera. But that is verified in this Question of the Romists, which Ireneus saith b Iren. c. Haer. lib. 5. , Multa male oportet interpretari eos, qui unum non volunt rectè intelligere: They are compelled to expound many things amiss, which will not understand one thing aright. Jesuit. Jesuit 2. Transubstantiation belongs to the substance of the Real Presence. THis I prove: That belongs to the substance of this Mystery of the real Presence, which being denied and taken away, the words of Christ, This is my Body, cannot be true, taken in the literal sense, in which sense they are to be taken, as hath been showed. But without granting Transubstantiation, the words of Christ cannot be true, taken in the literal sense, Ergo, Transubstantiation belongs to the substance of this Mystery of the real Presence. The Minor is proved. Because these words, This is my Body, signify that the thing the Priest holds in his hand, is truly, really, and substantially the body of Christ; for in this Proposition, This is my Body, the Verb, est, signifies a conjunction between this in the Priest's hand, and the body of Christ; and being a Verb substantive, taken in his proper signification, it signifies a substantial Identity between this in the Priest's hands, and the body of Christ. But this in the Priest's hands, being before Consecration, bread (a thing substantially distinct from the body of Christ) cannot by consecration be made substantially the body of Christ, as the Fathers teach it is, without some substantial Amb. l. 4. d. Sacr. c. 4. Vbi accesserit consecratio de pane fit Caro Christi. Aug. Ser. Qui citatur a Beda in c. 10. 1. ad Cor. Nyssen. Or. Catechetica. alteration, or change: and what other substantial change can make bread to become truly the body of Christ, beside substantial conversion of the same into his Body. ANSWER. You cannot demonstrate, that our Saviour's words must be expounded literally, for the Instance of the cup, Luke 22.20. (besides other Arguments) chokes you; and therefore the main ground of your Doctrine being sandy, the Arguments inferred upon the same are infirm. The weight of the first Argument lieth in this Proposition: Our Saviour's words cannot be expounded literally, unless the Romish Doctrine of Transubstantiation be granted. I answer: First, if Transubstantiation were admitted, the words of Christ, This is my body, This Cup is the New Testament in my blood, cannot be literal; for where there is any figure or trope, the speech is not literal: but in the Sacramental words, there is some figure or trope, by our Adversary's confession a Read before, pag. 396. . Secondly, If the said words be understood literally, than the body of Christ is properly broken, and his blood properly shed in the Eucharist: for Saint Paul saith, This is my body which is broken for you, 1. Cor. 11.24. Saint Luke, This cup is the New Testament in my blood which is shed for you. But the body of Christ is not properly broken b Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 12. In Mysterio Eucharistiae, fractio idem est quod immolatio sive Oblatio. Aquin. Com. 1. Cor. 11. Lect. 5. Corpus Christi non attingitur ab huiusmodi fractione. , nor his blood properly shed in the holy Eucharist. Thirdly, It is an improper speech to say, This is my body, that is, the thing contained under these forms c Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 1. cap. 11. Aquin. sup. 1. Cor. 11. Lect. 5. , is by conversion and substantial Transmutation, my body: but Papists maintaining Transubstantiation, expound Christ's words in this, or in some other manner d Read before, pag. 398. , whereby they depart from the propriety of the letter: therefore in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, they depart from the letter of the words, and consequently, they make the same figurative. Jesuit. But some may object, That as a man showing a leather purse full of gold, may truly say, this is gold; or a paper wrapped up full of silver, may say, this is silver: so the body of Christ being under consecrated bread, we may truly say, This is the body of Christ, though the substance of bread remain. ANSWER. Many famous schoolmen a Scotus, 4. d. 11. q. 3. lit. B. Circà hoc erant tres opiniones: una quod panis 〈◊〉, & tamen cum ipso vere est corpus Christi: alia, quod panis non manet, & tamen non convertitur sed desinit esse, 〈◊〉 per annihilationem, vel per resolutionem in materiam, vel per corruptionem in 〈◊〉 tertia, quod Panis transubstantiatur in corpus, & Vinum in sanguinem Christi. At (inquit) 1. Veritas Eucharistiae saluari potest sine ista Transubstantiatione. 2. Substantia Panis sub speciebus 〈◊〉 est nutrimentum, quam accidentia, ergo magis representat Christi corpus in ration e nutrimenti spiritualis. 3. Iste intellectus, quod non sit 〈◊〉 substantia Panis, videtur difficilior ad sustinendum, & ad ipsum sequuntur plura inconuenientia, quam ponendo ibi esse substantiam Panis. 4. Mirum videtur, quare in uno articulo, qui non est principalis articulus fidei, debeat talis intellectus asseri, propter quam, fides pateat contemptui omnium sequentium rationem. Et posteà, nihil est tenendum tanquam de substantia fidei, nisi quod potest expressè haberi de Scriptura, vel expressè declaratum est per Ecclesiam, vel evidentèr sequitur ex aliquo planè contento in Scriptura, velplanè determinato ab Ecclesia, etc. Nunc autem non videtur expressè haberi non esse ibi substantiam Panis. Nam joh. 6. Vbi multum probatur veritas Eucharistiae, planum est, ubi Christus dicit, Ego sum panis viws, 1. Cor. 11. Paulus. Panis quem frangimus, nonnè communicatio corporis Christi? Necinuenitur ubi Ecclesia istam veritatem determinet solemniter, nec 〈◊〉 qualitèr 〈◊〉 possit ab 〈◊〉 manifesto credito evidentèr inferri. Durand. 4. d. 11. q. 1. Occam. Centilog. Theol. Con. lib. 4. q. 6. & 4. Sent. d. 11. q. 6. Camerac. 4. d. 11. q. 6. ar. 1. Biel. Can. Miss. lect. 40. H. . teach, that the doctrine of Consubstantiation, to wit, such a presence as maintaineth the substance of Bread and Wine to remain together with the Body and Blood of Christ, is in itself more probable, and were rather to be followed than the doctrine of Transubstantiation, but only because of the contrary definition of the Roman Church: and some of these Doctors hold, that the opinion of Transubstantiation is not very ancient b Suares. refert. in 3. tom. 3. disp. 50. sect. 1. . And Card. Caietan affirmeth c Caietan. 3. q. 75. ar. 1. Impress. anno 1528. Dico autem ab Ecclesia, quoniam non apparet ex Euangelio, coactiwm aliquod, ad intelligendum haec verba propriè. Ex subiunctis siquidem verbis à Domino, scilicet quod pro vobis tradetur in Remiss. peccatorum, non potest concludi evidentèr, praemissa verba esse intelligenda propriè, quià litera quod, non refert coniunctionem praedicati cum subiecto, licet refert praedicatum, scilicet corpus meum. Cum cuius relationis veritate stat praeiacentem esse veram solum in sensu Metaphorico, ut patet in 〈◊〉, Petra autem erat Christus, etc. Jbid. Quod Euangelium non explicavit expressè, ab Ecclesia accepimus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Panis in corpus Christi, etc. Alph. 〈◊〉. c. Haeres. li. 8. v. Indulgentia. De Transubstantiatione Panis in corpus Christi, rara est in antiquis scriptoribus mentio. , that secluding the authority of the Roman Church, there is nothing in the Scripture which may compel one to understand the words properly. Jesuit. I answer, that when substances are apt of their nature, and ordained by use to contain other substances, then showing the substance that contains, we may signify the substance contained, as in the former examples: The reason is, because their natural aptitude to contain other things being vulgarly known, man's understanding strait passes from the consideration of the substances containing, to think of the thing contained therein. But when substances are not by nature and custom ordained to contain others, we cannot by showing them, demonstrate another, because their outward form signifies immediately the substance contained in them. For example, one puts a piece of gold in an apple, and showing it, cries, this is gold: in rigour of speech he says not true, because the sense of his word is, that the thing demonstrated immediately by the forms and accidents of that apple is gold. Yea put the case, that one should say this is gold, showing a piece of paper unfolded, in a manner not apt to contain any thing in it, he should not say true, though by some device he had put secretly into it a piece of gold: because when the paper is showed, displayed, and not as containing something in it, and yet is termed gold; the proper sense of that speech is, that the substance immediately contained under the accidents of paper is gold, although it be covered with other accidents than those that usually accompany the nature of gold. Wherefore the proposition of Christ, This is my Body, being spoken of a thing that naturally is not apt, nor by custom ordained to contain an humane body: it cannot be understood literally, but of the subject immediately contained under, and demonstrated by the accidents and outward semblance of Bread. Now the thing that lies hidden immediately under the accidents of Bread, which was once substantially Bread, cannot become substantially the body of Christ, except it be substantially converted into his body, or personally assumed by the same body. And seeing this second manner of union between Bread and Christ's Body, is impossible, and rejected by Protestants, as well as by Catholics: We may conclude, that the mystery of Christ's real presence cannot be believed in truth by them that deny Transubstantiation, specially seeing our Saviour did not say, here is my Body, which speech may be verified by the presence of his Body locally within the Bread, but This is my Body, which imports, that not only his Body is truly and substantially present, but also that it is the substance contained immediately under the accidents of Bread, ANSWER. First, if a substance be either by nature, humane Custom, or divine Ordination, appointed to contain another substance, then demonstrating the external substance which contains, we may signify the hidden substance contained a Faventin. in 4. Sent. Disp. 45. ca 4. Signato Marsupio verè dicitur hoc est aurum, licet aliquid argenti sit admixtum: Et hoc 〈◊〉 est, seruata omni proprietate verborum. . But according to that Tenet, which maintaineth Consubstantiation, the substance of bread is by divine Ordination appointed to contain the substance of Christ's body; therefore demonstrating by words the substance of bread, one may signify the hidden substance, which is Christ's body. Secondly, Scotus b Scot 4. d. 11. q. 3. , Durand c Durand. ib. q. 1. n. 14. , and Paludanus d Palud. ib. q. 2. n. 24. Petig. 4. d. 11. q. 3. ar. 2. Doctores ramen hic & Durand. q. 1. huius d. & Paludanus q. 2. & Occam. quod. 4. q. 29.30. & Thom. ab Arg. in 4. d. 11. q. 1. ar. 2. & Gab. in Can. lect. 41. Dicunt ex his verbis non concludi necessario, conversionem seu Transubstantiationem Panis in corpus Christi, quamuis enim sub speciebus maneret substantia Panis, dummodo cum illa simul adesset substantia corporis Christi, verè & propriè potuisset à Christo dici. Faventin. 4. disp. 45. ca 4. affirm, that although the substance of Bread remain, yet because the substance of Christ's body is also present, it might truly and properly be said by our Saviour, This is my Body. Now if such profound Schoolmen have weighed the jesuits objection, & do find the same light, the propugnors of Consubstantiation have small reason to regard it. Thirdly, the former objection is nothing to us, which maintain a true mystical presence e Cyprian. d. unct. Chrys. n. 7. Dedit itaque Dominus noster in mensa in qua ultimum cum Apostolis participavit convivium, proprijs manibus Panem & Vinum, in Cruse vero manibus militum corpus tradidit vulnerandum, ut in Apostolis secretius impressa sincera veritas & vera sinceritas, exponeret gentibus quomodo Vinum & Panis Caro esset & sanguis, & quibus rationibus causae effectibus convenirent, & diversa nomina vel species ad unam reducerentur essentiam, & significantia & significata eisdem vocabulis censerentur. of Christ in the holy Eucharist, and refuse both Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation; for we believe, and are able to demonstrate, that our Saviour's words are figurative in part, and yet the true Body and Blood of Christ are really and verily communicated f Bertram d. corp. & sang. Dom. Nec ideò quoniamista dicimus putetur in mysterio Sacramenti corpus Domini vel sanguinem ipsius non à fidelibus sumi, quando fides non quod occulis videt, sed quod credit accipit. , according to the manner formerly declared, pag. 405. Jesuit. If any man say that by this Argument it appears, that the Doctrine of Transubstantiation is not expressed in Scripture, but from the words of the Jnstitution subtly deduced, and so may perchance be numbered inter scita Scholae, not inter dogmata Fidei: I answer, That the consequence of this Argument is not good, as is evident in the example of the Incarnation. The Doctrine that the union of natures in Christ is proper, not Metaphorical, substantial, not accidental, personal not essential, is no where expressly set down by Scripture, but by subtle deduction inferred from the mystery which Scripture and Tradition delivers. Notwithstanding, because these subtle deductions are proposed by the Church, as pertinent unto the substance of the foresaid mystery, they cannot be denied without prejudice of Faith. In this sort the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, though not in terms delivered by the Scripture, but deduced by subtle and speculative inference, may not be denied by them that will be perfect believers, because the Church hath declared the same to pertain to Concil. Rom. sub. Nicolao 2. Lateranens. sub Inocentio 3. the proper sense of Christ his words, and substance of the mystery. ANSWER. I know at whom you glance a D. Andr. BB. of Winchester, c. Apolog. Bellarm. c. 1. pag. 11. De hoc est, firma fide renemus, quod sit. De hoc modo est (nempè Transubstantiato in corpus Panc) de modo quo fiat ut sit, per siuè in, siuè con, siuè sub, siuè trans, nullum inibi verbum est. Et quià verbum nullú, 〈◊〉 à fide ablegamus procul: Intèr scita Scholae fortasse, intèr fidei articulos non ponimus. , when you say, inter scita Scholae, but your solution, from the Doctrine of Incarnation, is not level to the scope: for illations are of two sorts; some are immediate, formal, necessary, evident, and illustrious, to wit, Christ jesus is a true and perfect man, therefore he hath an humane will: some are obscure, contingent, remote, and sophistical, to wit, Christ said, This is my body, Ergo, the consecrate host is Christ's substantial body by Transubstantiation. Christ said, Do this in remembrance of me, Ergo, he made his Disciples sacrificing Priests. That which is derived from Scripture the first way, is Doctrine of Faith: that which is inferred the other way, may be loose, uncertain, infirm, and many times ridiculous, and apparently false. Now let me entreat you, (until you prove your deduction necessary) to rank your Popish Mass and Transubstantiation among this latter kind of derivative Articles. Neither can the swelling usurpation of Romish Prelates (which you style the Church) make every subtle speculation of Schoolmen a Suares. in 3. p. Tho. to. 3. Disp. 50. Sect. 2. Hoc totum pendet ex Principijs Metaphysicis & Philosophicis & ad fidei Doctrinam non est simpliciter necessarium. , and nice figment of humane wisdom b Tertul. c. Marc. l. 5. c. 19 Omnes Haereses subtiloquentiae viribus & Philosophiae regulis constant. , an Article of Christian Faith, any more than a bragging 〈◊〉, can by outfacing, convert copper into gold: for Articles of Faith come down from heaven by the holy Ghost, and are such only from their form and original causes. As for your Roman Synod of Pope Nicholas, and your Lateran, under Innocent the third, These were your own Idols, the definitions that passed in them, were the breath of the Pope's nostrils, and therefore why are you so fantastical, as to enamel them, with the title and authority of the Catholic Church? And in one of these conventicles, your Pope hath so rudely and grossly c De Consecrat. Dist. 2. ca Ego Berengarius, verum corp' & sanguinem Domini nostri, etc. Sensualiter, non solum Sacramento, said in veritate manibus Sacerdotum tractari frangi & fidelium dentibus atteri. determined the Question of Real presence, that Romists d Gloss. ibid. Nisi sane intelligas verba Berengarij, in maiorem incides Haeresin, quam ipse habuit. Tartaret. 4. d. 10. q. 1. Non 〈◊〉 corpus, Christi, neque dentibus atteritur. Cassand. Consult. d. Transubst. Prudenter vidit & admonuit Author Glossae super Decret. Haec verba nisi sane intelligas, in maiorem incides haeresin quam ipse Berengarius habuit, 941. Caietan. Opusc. to. 2. d. Euchar. c. 3. themselves are now ashamed, and forced to Glosses and strained Expositions, to metamorphize and new mould those undigested crudities. Jesuit. Jesuit 3. Transubstantiation was taught by the Fathers. IT is certain, the Fathers acknowledge a Transmutation of bread into the Body of Christ, and that they meant Transubstantiation, that is, not only a mystical and significative, but also a real and substantial change, appears by these five Circumstances of their Doctrine in this point. ANSWER. THat we may rightly understand the testimonies of Fathers, alleged in this question, we are in the first place to examine, what transubstantiation is, according to Papalls. The Trident Council saith a Conc. Trid. Ses. 13. Persuasum semper in Ecclesia Dei fuit, idque nunc denuo sancta haec Synodus declarat, per consecrationem panis & vini, conversionem fieri totius Substantiae panis, in substantiam corporis Christi Domini nostri, & totius substantiae vini, in substantiam sanguinis eius. Quae 〈◊〉 convenienter & proprie à Sancta Catholica Ecclesia Transubstantiatio est appellata. Catech. Trid. d. Euchar. ut tota panis substantia divina virtute, in totam Corporis Christi substantiam, totaque vini substantia, in totam sanguinis Christi substantiam, sine ulla Domini nostri mutatione convertatur. Bonacin. d. Sacram. d. Euchar. Disp. 4. q. 3. p. 6. prop. 1. Transubstantiatio est conversio, 〈◊〉 transitus, totius substantiae in aliam. Dicitur conversio totius substantiae, ad distinctionem conversionis partialis, per quam non tota substantia, sed sola forma 〈◊〉, ad positionem alterius formae, quae dicitur generario, 〈◊〉 transformatio. Dicitur substantiae, ad distinctionem conversionis accidentalis, qua un 'em accidens desinit, ad position 'em alterius accidentis, ut quando desinit calor, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Rubeo. 4. d. 11. q. 1. Conuersio ut hic accipitur, non est aliud, quam rei totalis transitio in rem totalem: sic intelligendo, quia nihil eius quod transire seu converti dicitur maneat post conversionem, nec aliquid eius in quod convertitur praefuerit ante ipsam, nisi conversio ipsa esset in rem aliquam praeexistentem. , It is a conversion of the whole substance of Bread and Wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood, wrought by the words of consecration. First, by the whole substance, they understand the whole substantial matter and form b Henriq. Summae li. 8. ca 23. Coninch. d. Sacram. part. 3. q. 75. Nugnus. in 3. q. 77. ar. 1. Bellar. d. Euchar. Greg. Val. to. 4. Suar. to. 3. Vasques. Tapia. in. 3. Th. d. Euchar. q. 3. ar. 10. . Secondly, they affirm, that the whole substance of Bread and Wine is destroyed c Occhagau. d. Sacram. tr. 1. q. 17. n. 6. Haec desitio non est dicenda annihilatio, sed pleno ore dicenda est corruptio. , or ceaseth to be. Thirdly, the substance of Christ's body and blood, are placed under the accidental shapes of Bread and Wine. Fourthly, by the force of the words of consecration, the substance of Bread and Wine ceasing, the body and blood of Christ, acquire a new manner of being d Bonacin. d. Sacram. d. Euchar. disp. 4. q. 3. punct. 6. §. Secundum. Cum autem per conversionem, non solum constituatur Christus praesens sub speciebus, verum etiam producatur aliquis modus accidentalis ', quo Christus habens iam suum esse substantiale, unitur per modum contenti cum speciebus, sicut antea substantia panis sub illis continebatur, sequitur actionem conversionis non modo dici adductivam, verum etiam productivam. , under the external forms, differing from his being in heaven. Fiftly, the shapes and accidents of Bread and Wine subsist, e Aquin. 3. q. 76. ar. 1. Facta conuersione panis in corpus Christi, vel vini in sanguinem, accidentia utriusque manent. Concil. Bitur. cap. 6. negantes accidentia panis & vini in sacramento Eucharistiae sine substantia panis & vini manner, anathemate feriantur, & haeretici censeantur. without any material subject of inherency, and affect the senses, and nourish f Bel. d. Euchar. li. 3. c. 23. sicut divino miraculo, manent sine subiecto, ita etiam nutriunt ut Theologi docent. , in like manner as formerly they did. This doctrine of Popish Transubstantiation, is new, according to the judgement of many learned Schoolmen g Suar. in 3. Th. Disp. 50. Sect. 1. Tartaret. in 4. d. 10. q. 1. Non est necesse ad saluandum hoc, videlicet praesentiam corporis Christi in Sacramento, fugere ad conversionem panis in corpus Christi, quia à principio institutionis huius Sacramenti, fuit necessarium 〈◊〉 corpus Christi esse sub illis speciebus, quia in hoc consistit veritas, & tamen non fuit in principio ita manifeste dictum, quod panis convertatur in corpus Christi. joh. Yribarn. in 4. l. 11. q. 3. Disp. 42. Sect. 1. In primitiva Ecclesia, de substantia fidei erat, corpus Christi sub speciebus contineri: tamen non erat de fide, substantiam panis in corpus Christi converti & facta consecratione illinc recedere. : and the Primitive Fathers never taught the same; for many of them maintain expressly, That the substance of Bread and Wine remain; and none of them affirm, either that the substance of Christ's body and blood, are placed under the naked forms and shapes of Bread and Wine; or that the Accidents have no material subject of inherency; or that the body and blood of Christ acquire a new being in the Sacrament, differing from that which they had formerly upon the cross, or which they have not at this present in heaven. And transmutation, and transubstantiation, are different conversions, as appeareth by the examples of Lot's wife, changed into a pillar of salt, Gen. 19 26. and water changed into wine. joh. 2.9. for in these transmutations, the common material substance remaining, the forms and accidents were only changed. Jesuit. First by the expressness of their words: for there can be no words more significant and expressive of a substantial change between Bread and our Saviour's body, than those the Father's use. ANSWER. Express words if they be figurative, prove not a substantial change a Chrys. in Mat. Hom. 83. Ipsum vides, ipsum tangis, ipsum comedes. Cyprian. d. Coena, Dom. n. 10. 〈◊〉 haeremus, sanguinem sugimus, & intra ipsa redemptioris nostri vulnera, figimus linguam. : for the Fathers use words, which according to the letter, import a substantial change, when they treat of regeneration, and the Sacrament of Baptism. Also treating of the holy Eucharist, they affirm, that faithful Communicants are changed into the body and flesh of Christ b Chrys. in Math. Hom. 83. Nos se cum in unam massam reducit, & reipsa nos corpus suum efficit. Leo. Ep. ad Cler. Const. in mystica distributione spiritualis alimoniae, hoc impartitur & sumitur, ut accipientes virtutem coelestis cibi in carnem ipsius qui caro nostra factus 〈◊〉, transeamus. Rabanus. d. Instit. Cler. li. 1. c 31. Sicut illudin nos convertitur dum id manducamus & bibimus, sic & nos in corpus Christi convertimur, dum obedienter & pie vivimus. , which our Adversaries themselves understand not of a substantial change. Jesuit. S. Nyssen, That the word made flesh, is inserted within Orat. Cateche. ca 37 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. every faithful man, by his flesh taking his consistence of Bread and Wine, Consecration transelementing the nature of things appearing, into the same flesh. ANSWER. If the words of this Father be understood of Transubstantiation, than the bodies of faithful receivers are converted into the substance of Christ's flesh: for he saith, When the immortal body of Christ is within him which hath received it, it transmuteth him wholly into his own nature a Greg. 〈◊〉 Orat. Catech. 37-Corpus à Deo morte affectum, cum fuerit intra nostrum, totum ad se transmutat, & transfert, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Corpus immortal cum fuerit intra eum qui sumpsit, unluersum quoque transmutat in suam naturam. . Also the humane nature of Christ should be converted into the divine nature b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and Christ should be commixed, and contempered with the bodies of believers; and bread should be changed into Christ's body, as meat is into man's body. Also Gregory Nyssen saith c Ib. Per suae gratiae dispensationem, se per carnem inserit omnibus credentibus, commistus & contemperatus corporibus credentium, etc. Nisi per cibum & potum visceribus inseratur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , That Christ's body is inserted into believers only. Lastly, the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Transelementation d Theophylact. in joh. 6. 56. Qui manducat me vivit propter me, dum quodammodo miscetur mihi & transelementatur in me, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , proveth not Transubstantiation: for in Transubstantiation, the matter is destroyed, and the quantity and accidents remain; and in Transelementation, the matter remaineth, and the essential and accidental forms are altered. Jesuit. S. Cyril saith (That we might not feel horror, seeing flesh and blood on the sacred Altars) the Son of God condescending to our infirmities, doth penetrate with the power of life, into the things offered (to wit Bread and Wine) converting them into the verity of his own flesh, that the body of life as it were a certain seed of vivification might be found in us. ANSWER. This Tract of S. Cyril (according to Vasques e Vasq. in 3. Tho. 〈◊〉. 3. Disp. 180. ca 3. n. 〈◊〉 Cyrillus Alexandrinus in Epistola ad Calosyrium, quae inter eius opera non habetur, illius tamen testimonium citat S. Tho. in Catena. in illud. Luc. 〈◊〉. & acc epto pane. the jesuit) is not found among his ancient works, but cited out of him by Thomas Aquinas, and therefore the authority thereof, may be suspected; notwithstanding I answer as followeth. First, S. Cyrill, by the words, Converting them into the verity of his flesh, understandeth not Popish Transubst. but mystical and Sacramental Conversion, to wit, conversion of signification, use, and operation; for he speaketh of Bread and Wine, not according to a part of their nature, to wit, their matter and substance, but according to their whole nature, containing substance, accidents, and quantity: now if the things offered b 〈◊〉. li. 4. ca 32. Aug d. fid. ad Petrum. ca 19 Sacrificium panis & vini, in fide & charitate, sancta Ecclesia Catholica, per 〈◊〉 orbem terrae, offer non cessat. to God, in the holy Eucharist, are the whole creatures of Bread and Wine, and the same are converted into Christ's flesh; then the accidents and quantity are converted into Christ's body, as well as the matter and form, which Romists deny. Secondly, from the word Conversion, Romists cannot prove Transubstantiation: for if the conversion, be only of use, relation, and operation, as in the water of Baptism, than it followeth not, That because S. Cyrill taught conversion, Ergo, he taught Transubstantiation. And if it be a substantial conversion, than also there cannot be Popish Transubstantiation, for in this form and substance perish, and the accidents remain: in the other, the common matter remaineth, and the form and accidents perish c 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, siue 〈◊〉, sed mutat 〈◊〉. . In all substantial conversions, natural or miraculous, there is a new thing produced, out of that which is converted, as appeareth in the conversion of Water into Wine, and Lot's wife into a Pillar of salt, etc. But in Popish Transubstantiation, the body of Christ is not produced anew d Aureol. 4. d. 11. q 1. ar. 1. virtute transubstantiationis, non accipit corpus Domini esse post non esse, quoniam prius erat. : for it is preaexistent, and receiveth no substantial change, by the confession of 〈◊〉 themselves e Scot 4. d. 11. q. 3. Faventin. in 4. Disp. 35. ca 6. Quaero quis sit terminus formalis huius actionis (Transub.) & conversionis? non est corpus Christi. quia illud est terminus materialis, ergo terminus erit Christi panis. Hoc autem totum est accidentale, & nihil addit in re nisi 〈◊〉 realem sub 〈◊〉. : neither is it substantially united unto the accidents of Bread and Wine, for it giveth no subsistence to them, and it sustaineth them not, but it is united accidentally f 〈◊〉. Corpus Christi in Eucharistia respicit accidentia omnino 〈◊〉, ergo non potest 〈◊〉 illorum 〈◊〉 aliquem modum essendi substantialem, 〈◊〉 ab 〈◊〉, quem habebat antequam fieret 8. 〈◊〉 convertitur in corpus Christi, quod nulla sit mutatio in ipso, nec habet aliquid ad species quae est accidens. Petigian. 〈◊〉. Theol. in 4. d. 11. q. 3. ar. 7. Terminus novae actionis accipit esse per ipsam actionem, sed per Transubst. quae 〈◊〉 actio nova, non accipit corpus Christi esse substantiale, sed presentialitarem ad species. Ergo corpus Christi non est terminus Transubst. secundum esse substantiale, sed solum secundum 〈◊〉. only, by being made present where the substance of the Elements formerly were. Now if water should be poured upon the ground, or otherwise consumed, and wine be brought from 〈◊〉, as hail and snow g 〈◊〉. in 4. d. 11. q. 4. Disp. 44. Sect. 2. Grando & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adducuntur è coelo in terram, & secuudum quid 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 in esse presentis in terra. Ibid. Tota ipsa Trausubst. est 〈◊〉. joh. d. colon ex Scoto q. 11. 〈◊〉 corporis Christi in Eucharistia, est tantum respectus extrinsece adveniens. are, and be placed where water formerly was, here is no substantial conversion: so likewise when the substance of Bread and Wine cease, and Christ's body and blood are brought 〈◊〉 the place where these were, no substantial thing is produced, but one substance succeedeth in the room of another, by that which they style ubiation h 〈◊〉. 4. d. 11. q. 1. ar. 3. Vbiatio est quando aliquid de ubi non, transit ad aliud ubi. . It is in vain therefore for Romists to object the Father's words, speaking of conversion of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, because in Popish Transubstantiation, there is not conversion of bread into Christ's body, but only a local succession of Christ's body into the same ubitie, where the substance of bread formerly was a Aureol. 4. d. 11. q. 1. ar. 1. Praecise unum succedit alteri, non est verum dicere quod illud, cui succeditur, accedat & convertatur in 〈◊〉 quod succedit, imo è converso 〈◊〉 accedit ad illud cui succedit. Idem. ar. 2. Illud non transit in aliud, quod desinit, antequam perveniat ad illud, sicut non transit 〈◊〉 qui desinit esse antequam perveniat illuc. . Thirdly, In all substantial conversions, either a new thing is produced, or the old preserved. In Transubstantiation, no new thing is produced, nor any old preserved: Ergo, Transubstantiation is no conversion. If they answer, That some new thing is produced, to wit, an union of Christ's body with the Sacramental signs b Bonacin. d. Sacram. d. 〈◊〉. Disp. 4. q. 3. p. 6. §. 2. Greg. Val. 〈◊〉. 4. Disp. 6. q. 3. punct. 2. & 3. 〈◊〉 mutationis illius non est simpliciter non esse, sed esse substantiale corporis Christi, non quasi de novo productum, sed 〈◊〉 succedens substantiae panis, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substantialem intimae cuiusdam coniunctionis substantiae suae, cum ijsdem illis 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 antea erat quoque per suam substantiam 〈◊〉 coniunctus panis, & quidem 〈◊〉 etiam, quodam naturae & rationis ordine, quam ab illis informaretur. . I answer, That when a garment and a body are united, here is no substantial conversion, or when a Diamond and gold Ring are united, or when the humanity or Deity are united in the person of Christ. If they say, That the body of Christ 〈◊〉 is preserved, as when nourishment c Bellarm. d. Euchar. lib. 3. cap. 18. Conuersio panis in corp' Domini, non est productiva nec conseruativa, sed adductiva. Name corp' Domini preexistit ante conversionem, sed non sub speciebus panis, conversio 〈◊〉 non facit ut corpus Christi simpliciter esse incipiat, sed ut incipiat esse sub speciebus panis. Greg. Val. to. 4. Disp. 6. q. 3. punct. 2. & 3. is received into the body, it preserveth the same; then I demand, Whether Christ's body is preserved in regard of the being? and if they affirm, than it is also produced according to the being d Faventin. 4. Dist. 11. q. 3. Disp. 45. ca 7. Scotus 2. d. 2. q. 1. ad 1. Conseruatio est continuatio esse prehabiti, non tamen est 〈◊〉 causationes & actiones, sed est actio una & eadem, qua Deus primo creavit creaturam, quae respectu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 temporis, quo creatura ponitur in esse dicitur creatio: respectu vero aliorum sequentium dicitur 〈◊〉. Vasques 3. Tho. to. 3. Disp. 181. cap. 5. Si all qua actio fuerit, vel, res aliqua cuius ipsa 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 causa, ca non potest esse Transubstantiatio aut terminus illius: atqui conseruatio Christi, non est actio proceedens à verbis 〈◊〉, neque esse Christi permanens est 〈◊〉 ipsorum. Ergo talis actio non potest esse Transubstantiatio, neque esse Christus terminus illius. Porro autem talem actionem & terminum, non posse à verbis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ab 〈◊〉 patet, quia Deus etiam sine illis verbis, 〈◊〉 prorsus modo Christum 〈◊〉 in suo esse: 〈◊〉, cum conseruat illis prolatis, 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, sed per accidens & concomitanter cum 〈◊〉 se habet. , because the same thing which produced the body of Christ, doth at this present only preserve it, and no new thing superadded; but it is not produced anew, Ergo, It is not preserved or continued in the being which it formerly had, by any new Action. If they answer, It is preserved according to the Sacramental being: I reply, That this Sacramental being, must be either the being of Christ's body, according to matter and form; but then Christ's body receiveth no such being, for it was preexistent. Or else it is the union and application of Christ's body, to the Sacramental signs; and then I reply, That this union is only accidental a Vasques in 3. Tho. to. 3. Disp. 181. cap. 3. Vnio cum illis, quocunque modo fiat non potest non esse accidentaria. , and in regard of presentialitie and ubitie, and consequently it is no conversion of bread into Christ's body, but a translation and adduction of Christ's body from heaven, unto the place of the substance of bread: but translation and adduction of one substance, into the room or seat of another, is not substantial conversion b Suar. to. 3. in 3. part. Tho. Disp. 50. Sect. 4. Per solam actionem adductivam, revera non explicatur vera converfio substantialis & Transubstantiatio, sed solum translocatio quaedam, quando una substantia solum succedit loco alterius, non potest proprie dici una converti in aliam. , but alteration of place. Jesuit. Saint Chrysostome, When wax is put into fire, nothing Nihil substantiae remanet nihil superfluit, Chrys. Ho. d. Euch. in Encaen. of the substance thereof is left, nothing remains vnconsumed: so likewise do thou think that the Mysteries are consumed by the substance of the body of Christ. ANSWER. This Father c Chrysost. tom. 3. Hom. d. Euchar. in Encaen. Quemadmodum si cera igni adhibita illi assimilatur nihil substantiae remanet nihil superfluit: sic & hic puta mysteria consumi corporis substantia. saith not, That nothing of the substance of bread and wine is left, but clean contrary, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Nothing of the substance goeth away: And the words which follow, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, are falsely translated: for they are not, Is consumed by the substance, but, Is coabsumed with the substance. Also the substance of bread is not consumed by the body of Christ, according to the Tenet of many Schoolmen d 〈◊〉 4. d. 11. q. 4. Maior. ib. q. 1. Gabr. ib. q. vnic. & in Can. Lect. 40. & 41. Occam. 4. q. 6. dub. 7. Dicunt panis substantiam non desinere esse per illam actionem qua efficitur corpus Christi. Vasq. in 3. Tho. to. 3. Disp. 181. cap. 6. Fatentur & substantiam corporis & sanguinis suapte natura cum 〈◊〉 panis & vini non pugnare ut eam destruat. . The substance of the external elements, passeth into the body of the Receiver, and is consumed, or united to the flesh of the Receiver. The body and blood of Christ represented by the same, and received by Faith, nourish the soul to life eternal, john 6. 54. And if our Adversaries, following their own translation, will expound Saint Chrysostome literally, than Communicants receive Christ's body by the hands of the Seraphim e Ne putetis quod accipitis Divinum corpus non ab hoc, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and not by the Priest's hands. Jesuit. S. Ambrose, What arguments shall we bring to prove, Ambr. de initian. Mysterijs, c. 9 That in the Sacrament is not the thing which nature hath Non hoc quod natura formavit, sed quod benedictio consecravit. Benedictione enim ipsa natura mutatur. framed, but that thing which benediction hath consecrated; and that greater is the force of benediction, than of nature, seeing by the benediction even nature is changed. ANSWER. The quantity and accidents of the outward signs, are framed by nature, as well as the substance; and the force of consecration, and benediction passeth upon the one, as well as upon the other: and therefore the change of nature, which Saint Ambrose intendeth, is not the destruction of the elements a Amb. d. Sacr. l. 4. c. 4. Vt sint quae erant & in aliud commutentur. , and the conversion thereof into another substance, but the elevating of these earthly creatures, to be mysteries of grace, and holy instruments, to apply and communicate that which is represented by them. a Ambros. d. Sacram. lib. 4. cap. 4. Tu ipse eras sed eras vetus creatura, postea quam consecratus 〈◊〉, nova creatura esse coepisti: vis scire quam nova creatura? Omnis is inquit in Christo nova creatura. Accipe ergo quemadmodum sermo Christi, 〈◊〉 omnem mutare consueverit & mutat quando vult instituta naturae. It is inconsequent to argue, They are changed in their nature, Ergo, Their natural substance is destroyed: for nature implieth qualities b Duraeus c. Whitaker. 〈◊〉. pa. 59 Col. 2. Aquarius Formal. verb. Natura. and properties, as well as substance, and it is taken Theologicè, as well as Physicè; for S. Peter speaking of regenerate persons, 2. Pet. 1. v. 4. saith, They are made partakers of the Divine nature, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: and yet his meaning is not, that their former substance is abolished. The nature of glorified bodies is changed, and they are made spiritual, 1. Cor. 15. 44. and yet they retain the same substance. Man's nature was changed after his fall, Ephes. 2. 3. yet the substance of his nature remained. Saint Ambrose himself saith, That in Baptism man is changed, and made a new creature; and treating farther of the Sacrament of Baptism, he saith, Learn how the word of Christ is accustomed to change every creature, and when he will he altereth the course of nature. Jesuit. Secondly, They require, that the Author that changeth bread into Christ his Body, be omnipotent; and consequently, the change not merely significative, but substantial. S. Cyprian, This Bread changed not in shape Cyprian. d. Coena Domini. Panis non effigy, sed natura mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est Caro. Cyril. Orat. 4. Mystagog. but in nature, by the omnipotency of the word is made flesh. S. Cyrill, He that in the marriage of Cana changed Water into Wine, by his only will, is not he worthy that we believe him that he hath changed Wine into his Blood? S. Gaudentius, The Lord and Creator Gaud. Tract. 2. in Exod. of Natures, that of Earth made Bread, again (because he can do it, and hath promised to do it) makes of Bread his own Body; and he that of Water made Wine, now of Wine hath made his Blood. ANSWER. S. Cyprian was not the author of the Book de Coena Domini, so Bellarmine a Bell. d. Script. Eccles. Et li. 6. ca 2. d. Amiss. gratiae. Et d. Sacr. Confirm. li. 2. ca 6. confesseth, and before him johannes Hessels b Hessel. d. Com. sub una specie, p. 62 , but in some copies it passeth under the name of Arnoldus, who lived many ages after Cyprian. And yet in one part of that work, d. vnctione Chrysmatis c Lib. d. Card. Oper. d. Unction. Chrys. n. 7. Dedit Dominusnoster in mensa, in qua ultimum cum Apostolis participavit convivium, proprijs manibus panem & vinum: In cruse vero ma. nibus militum corpus tradidit vulnerandum, ut in Apostolis secretius impressa veritas, & vera sinceritas, exponeret gentibus, quomodo Vinum & Panis Caro esset & Sanguis, & quibus rationibus causae effectibus 〈◊〉: 〈◊〉 nomina vel species, ad unam reducerentur essentiam, & significantia & significata, eisdem vocabulis 〈◊〉. , there is a manifest place against Transubstantiation: Our Lord (saith he) in the table wherein he banqueted with his Disciples, with his own hands delivered Bread and Wine, etc. declaring also how the thing signifying, and the thing signified are called by the same name. Secondly, to a mystical change, the omnipotent power of God is necessary, as appeareth in the water of Baptism d Leo serm. 4. d. 〈◊〉. Christus dedit aquae, quod dedit 〈◊〉. Virtus enim altissimi, & obumbratio Spiritus Sancti, quae facit ut Maria pareret saluatorem, eadem fecit, ut unda regeneret credentem. Cyprian. d. Chrysm. Sanctificatis elementis iam non propria natura praebet effectum, sed virtus divina potentius operatur effectum. , and earthly creatures cannot be instruments of grace, or means to communicate spiritual or miraculous benefits without the same, as appear in the waters of jordan, 2. Reg. 5. and in the pool of Bethesda, joh. 5. Therefore although some do require an omnipotent power to elevate and change the creatures of Bread and Wine, yet it followeth not that they maintained Transubstantiation. Thirdly, the author e Cyprian. d. Coen. Dom. n. 6. Panis iste quem Dominus 〈◊〉 porrigebat, non effigie sed natura mutatus, omnipotentia verbi factus est caro: Et sicut in persona 〈◊〉, humanitas videbatur & 〈◊〉 divinitas, ità Sacramento visibili, 〈◊〉 divina se infudit essentia. by the words, Natura mutatus, changed in nature, understood not a corporal change, for in the same sentence he declareth himself, by the example of Christ's humanity, which being personally united to the deity, is changed, but not so as that it looseth his natural form and substance. And in the same Book this Father faith a Ib. n. 2. Sed immortalitatis alimonia datur, à cōmunib' cibis differens, corporalis substantiae retinens speciem. Sed virtutis divinae invisibili essentia probans adesse praesentiam. , That although the immortal food (delivered in the Eucharist) differ from common meat, yet it retaineth in the kind of corporal substance. He saith not, Species in the plural number, meaning according to the new Popish sense, the external shapes and accidents, (for let the Adversary prove out of antiquity, that S. Cyprian, or the Primative Church maintained the late Romish Doctrine concerning shapes of Bread and Wine, without the material substance, and we will freely grant that the Doctrine of Transubstantiation is ancient) but he saith, Speciem, the kind, in the singular number, that is, the corporal substance and form, in the same sense in which S. Ambrose b Ambros. d. eye Qui. Myst. initiant. cap. 9 useth the word, saying, Ante benedictionem verborum Coelestium alia species nominatur, Before the benediction of words (applied) it is called another kind of thing. S. Cyrills' place maintaineth not Popish Transubstantiation, for in this, the shapes and accidents remain, and the material substance is corrupted: but in our Saviour's miracle, joh. 2. the shapes, accidents, and form were changed, and the material substance remained. Gaudentius saith c Gaud. Brix. to. 4. Biblioth. Col. tr. 2. Exod. Satis declarat Sanguinem suum esse omne Vinum quod in figura passionis sua offertur. Bonauent. d. 11. q. 6. in 4. sent. Omnia verba significantia innovationem circà corp' Christi sunt falsè dicta. Haec est simplicitèr impropria Corpus Christi fit. Ne 〈◊〉 putes quod Coeleste effectum est per eum qui transit in 〈◊〉. Nam cum panem consecratum, & vinum Discipulis suis porrigerat, &c., The Lord makes Bread of his own Body, and he makes Wine of his Blood: and then he saith further, of Bread he makes his own Body, and of Wine his own Blood; but he saith not that this is done by Transubstantiation (for Christ's Body and Blood are not transubstantiate) but calling the same celestial food, he declareth his meaning to be, that the change is spiritual and mystical. And speaking of the elements of Bread and Wine, he affirmeth expressly, that our Saviour delivered consecrated Bread and Wine to his Disciples. If then, according to Gaudentius, the consecrated signs which Christ delivered his Disciples, were Bread and Wine, they were not abstracted shapes and figures of Bread and Wine: for where the matter and essence is abolished, and the accidents only remain, there is not the very thing, but a shadow and image d Gaud. ib. Figura non est veritas, sed imitatio veritatis. thereof only. Jesuit. Thirdly, the Instrument by which God works this Transubstantiation, is by them acknowledged the most efficacious that may be, to wit, the word not of man but of God. S. Ambrose: Moses his word changed the water of Ambrose de iis qui Mysterijs convertuntur. c. 9 Egypt into blood, and again turned them from blood into water. If so great was the benediction of man, what may we think of divine Consecration, where the very words of our Saviour work? The words of Elias had power to bring down fire from Heaven, and shall not the words of Ambros. lib. 4. d. Sacram. ca 4. Christ have force to change the kinds of the Elements? Again, thou seest how working and efficatious is the word of Christ. If therefore such virtue is in his Word, that thereby things that are not, receive being, how much more hath it power that the things that are still, remain (in the genial latitude of being, and according to the sensible accidents) and be converted into another substance. ANSWER. Among the six or seven examples brought by S. Ambrose, of changes, only two are substantial, and the rest accidental: and the elements are changed, when of common and natural creatures, they are made sacred, and become channels and instruments of saving grace. So the Fathers affirm, That the word of Christ in Baptism is most efficacious, to alter the property of natural water, and to give regenerative force and virtue to it a Leo d. Natiu. Christi, Serm. 4. Ambros. d. eye qui Myster. initiantur, ca 3. Higher sup. Eia. li. 17. Prooem. Vox Domini super aquas, etc. Aug. sup. 〈◊〉. Tract. 8. Cyril. sup. joh. lib. 2. ca 42. Chry. in Mat. ho. 83. . Also the holy Scripture affirmeth concerning evangelical Doctrine, That it is the immortal Seed of God, the Word of eternal life, the Power of God to salvation, etc. 1. Pet. 1.29. Act. 5.20. & 14.3. Rom. 1.16. & the same converteth people to God, Act, 2.37. and maketh them new creatures b Chrys. to. 3. d. Fid. & Leg. Naturae. Lanae cum tinguntur naturae suae nomen amittunt, & tincturae nomen accipiunt, etc. Si igitur tinctio naturae nomen transformat, cur Dei natura non transformat hominem, 〈◊〉 ut is qui antè pulueris gerebat imaginem, post tincturam imaginem gerat fulgidam & plusquam coelestem? , 2. Cor. 5.17. & 1. Cor. 4.15. But yet from hence we cannot infer, that either the water of Baptism, or regenerate persons are changed by Transubstantiation. Jesuit. Fourthly, The effect of this Transmutation taught by the Fathers, is the presence of the substance of Christ's body, and the absence of the substance of Bread, binding us to abnegate our senses, and not to believe what we seem to see with our eyes. Theophylact, Bread is transelemented 〈◊〉. in. c. 4. 26. Math. or transformed by an ineffable creation, although to us it seem Bread, because we are weak, and have horror to eat raw flesh, specially the flesh of man: for this reason Bread appeareth, but in essence and substance it is not Bread. S. Cyril, Come not therefore as unto simple Bread Cyril. Hierosol. Catech. Mystag. 4. and Wine, for it is the Body and Blood of Christ, according to the affirmation of our Lord: for although sense suggest the contrary, yet let Faith confirm thee, judging not of the thing by taste, but indubitably, and with full Faith believe that thou art made partaker of the Body and Blood of Christ. And again know this, and with full certitude believe, That the Bread seen is not Bread, though it so seem to the taste, but the Body of Christ; and that Wine seen is not Wine, though taste judge it to be so, but the Blood of Christ. ANSWER. First, the Fathers teach, and we with them acknowledge, that Christ's body is mystically present to faithful communicants, 1. Cor. 10.16. But corporal presence (by indistance of place, and absence of the material substance of the elements) was not taught by the ancient Church; for they teach, That the creatures a Iren. li. 4. cap. 32. Eum quiex creatura Panis est accepit, & gratias egit, dicens hoc est corpus meum. Et calicem similitèr, qui est ex creatura. Ib. li. 4. ca 34. Quemadmodum qui est è terra panis percipiens vocationem Dei, iam non communis panis est, sed Eucharistia ex duabus rebus constans terrena & coelesti, etc. li. 5. ca 1. Eum Calicem qui est creatura, etc. of Bread and Wine are present in the Eucharist, and that after they be changed b justin. Martyr. Apol. 2. Quae mutata nutrit carnes nostras. Cyril. in joh. li. 3. c. 34. Vt panis hic terrestris facit, imbecilitatem carnis nostrae sustinens atquè conseruans: ità & ipse per spiritum sanctum, spiritum nostrum vivificat, & corpus ipsum à coruptione liberat. , they nourish the body: but the abstracted shapes of Bread and Wine are not Gods creatures, but Popish fancies. Again, they teach, that such signs and elements are present, as have power to feed and nourish the body c Iren. li. 5. ca 1. Et per creaturam nutrimur, ex quibus augetur carnis nostiae substantia. , and to resemble the mystical union between Christ and Christian people, to wit, Bread confected of many corns of grain, Wine of many grapes d Cyprian. Epist. 63. Quemadmodum grana multa in unum collecta, etc. Idem. Epist. 76. Quando Dominus corpus suum panem vocat, de multorum granorum adunatione congestum populum nostrum quem portabat indicat adunatum: Et quando sanguinem suum vinum appellat, de botris atquè acinis plurimis expressum, atque in unum coactum, gregem item nostrum significat commixtione adunatae multitudinis copulatum. Chrys. in 1. Cor. hom. 24. Quemadmodum panis ex multis granis unitur, etc. Aug. in joh. tr. 26. Dominus noster Iesus Christus corpus & sanguinem suum in 〈◊〉 rebus commendavit, quae ad unum aliquid rediguntur ex multis. Namquè aliud in unum ex multis granis conficitur & constat, 〈◊〉 in unum ex multis 〈◊〉 confluit. : but mathematical Bread and wine, have neither power to nourish, neither do they resemble the mystical Union aforesaid; for there is in them, only the shadow of grain and Grapes, but no substance; and Papists may as well say, That painted bread and wine, have power of feeding, and mystical representation, as these fictions and Mathematical shadows. Secondly, Cyrill showeth in other passages of that work, what he intendeth and meaneth, namely, That the consecrate bread, is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, common, profane, and mere natural bread, which the sight and taste judge so to be; but sanctified, elevated, and changed to supernatural use and operation. Thirdly, If Theophylact, a late Writer a Bellarm. de 〈◊〉. Theophilactus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tempore Alexandri Papae 2. etc. Circa annum Dom. 1071. , and some one or two besides, speak obscurely, and improperly b Chrysost. in joh. Hom. 45. Non se tantum videri permittit desiderantibus, sed & tangi, & 〈◊〉, & dentes carni suae infigi. Id. Ad Pop. Antioch. Hom. 61. Lingua 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. in this Argument, what is this to the grounding and raising of an Article of Faith, or to the proving a matter in question, by a common and evident consent of Fathers? Fourthly, The Fathers exhort people to abnegate their senses in Baptism, wherein they maintain no Transubstantiation: and there is good reason why we should do this in the holy Eucharist, because we therein eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the Son of man, Credendo c Chrysost. 1. Cor. Hom. 24. August. d. verb. Dom. Serm. 33. & sup. joh. Tract. 25. Ib. tr. 50. Tertul. d. Resur. Car. cap. 37. , by believing, john 6. 35. and not by sensible or corporal eating. Jesuit. Finally, That the Fathers held Transubstantiation, is proved by the continuancie which they taught of Christ's body in the Sacrament, so long as the accidents of bread last, as appear by their reserving of the same. For Reservation to have been the custom of the Primative Church, Protestants grant. That the Sacrament was of some reserved in the elder days of the Church, is not (saith Master d Habent veteris Ecclesiae exemplum 〈◊〉. Calvin. Instit. lib. 9 c. 17. Sect. 39 Fulke against heskin's Saunders, & p. 77. Chemnit. in Exam. Concil. Trid. pa. 2. p. 102. justin. Apolog. 2. fine Dionys. Alexand. Ep. ad Fab. apud Euseb. Ep. 6. ca 36. Chrys. Ep. 1. ad Innocent. Tertullian. li. 2. ad uxorem Greg. Nazian. Orat. in Gorgon. Fulke) so great a question, as whether it ought to be reserved. And Chemnicius granteth, that in this point on our side stands, 〈◊〉 consuetudinis late patentis & diu propagatae. And whereas 〈◊〉 addeth, Haec tamen veritati praescribere non debet, he accuseth the Primitive Church, and opposeth no less against them than us; and I am sure your Majesty knows, that the Primitive Fathers did use to send the Sacrament unto them that were lawfully absent from Church, as doth witness S. justin; and unto the sick, as Dyonisius Alex. writes of Serapion, That Christians carried the same to their private houses to take in the morning before other meat, as testifieth Tertullian, That many times they did wear the same about them for protection, as Satyrus brother to S. Ambr. going to sea, carried it in a Ambros. Orat. in Obitu. Fratris Satyri. stole, by virtue whereof he was saved in shipwreck: That Martyrs had the same frequently with them, to receive simeon. Metaphr. vitae Sancti Steph. Pap. & Martyr. c. 17. Vsu Ord. in Martyrol. Guismundus de corpore & sanguine li. 2. Cyprian. Serm. de lapsis. it for their Viaticum, as Tharsilius a most glorious Martyr, who being taken with the Sacrament about him, permitted himself rather to be bruised with stones to death, than disclose it to the Persecutors; who when they had crowned the Martyr, searching seriously for the Sacrament in his clothes and about his dead body, found nothing, God by miracle keeping the same out of their impious hands. S. Cyprian records diverse miracles done in confirmation of this our Saviour's permanent presence in the Sacrament, namely of a woman unworthily approaching to the Chest where the same was kept, that was frighted back with fire that thence flashed out, Tanta est Domini potentia, saith S. Cyprian, Tanta Maiestas. And so fully were they persuaded in this opinion, That Christ's body is permanently in the Sacrament, that Cyril Cyril. Alexand. Epist. ad Calosyr. dareth say, Insaniant qui dicunt benedictionem a Sanctificatione cessare, Si quae reliquiae remanserunt eius in sequentem diem, non enim mutabitur sacrosanctum corpus Christi, sed virtus benedictionis & vivificativa gratia iugis in eo est Now what reason could the Fathers have, thus constantly to defend this continuancy of our Saviour in the Sacrament, but that they believed Bread to be changed into his body, remaining demonstrable, by the forms and accidences thereof, so long as they remained entire, and were not changed into the accidences of some other substance? ANSWER. Your objection reduced to form of argument is: All they which used reservation of the Sacrament, and maintained continuancie of Christ's body therein, believed Transubstantiation. The ancient Fathers used reservation of the Sacrament, and maintained continuancie of Christ's body therein, Ergo The ancient Fathers believed Transubstantiation. If the argument be thus form, First, the Mayor Proposition is denied: for the Fathers might use reservation of the Sacrament, and believe the permanency of Christ's body therein, upon the Tenet of real Presence by Consubstantiation, and not upon belief of Transubstantiation. Secondly, the Primitive Church, and ancient Fathers, generally or universally, used not reservation of the Sacramental signs b Origen. vel Cyril. in Levit. Hom. 5. Dominus panem quem discipulis dabat, non distulit nec seruavit in crastinum, etc. Hesich. in Levit li. 2. c. 8. Quicquid reliquum fuerit de carne & panibus, ignis absumet, etc. quod nunc videmus 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia sensibiliter fieri, ignique tradi quaecunque remanere contingerit inconsumpta. Niceph. Eccles. Hist. li. 17. ca 25. 〈◊〉. Eccles. Hist. li. 4. c. 35. Concil. Matiscon. 2. can. 6. Humbert. c. lib. Nicetae apud Cassand. Liturg. c 30. pa. 69. ; and justin Martyr c justin. Apol. 2. , and Ireneus d Iren. ap. Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 5. c. 24. , speak only of the sending of the Sacrament from the Church, where it was administered to sick persons and strangers. Some examples of reservation proceeded upon the ignorance, and superstition of private persons e Vide Cyprian. li. d. lapsis. , in which case although some Fathers used connivance, yet these abuses were afterwards reform f Toletan. Concil. 1. ca 14. Caesar 〈◊〉. Concil. 1. cap. 3. . The Minor therefore if it be general, is denied: and if it be particular, than the Mayor and Minor infer not the conclusion; because that which was done by some, upon private opinion, and in another kind or manner than Romists do at this day, and was also opposed and corrected by others, cannot be a matter of Catholic doctrine, or practise. But this question of Reservation hath been largely handled by many of our part, and whatsoever Romists have objected concerning the same, is fully answered a Read Chemnitius, Exam. Concil. Trid. p. 2. pag. 97. Doct. Fulk. ag. Heskins Parliam. p. 78. Gerhard. loc. Com. to. 5. d. Sacra. Coen. ca 17. Politian. Sophist. Bellarm. d. permanentia Corp. Christi, pag. 44. etc. Froeresen. Scrutin. Panopliae. Bellarm. d. Euchar. Disp. 9 Herbrand. Disp. 32. d. Fest. Corp. Christi, pag. 550. : and therefore, because this jesuit produceth no new matter, but only repeateth what we have formerly confuted, and especially because Reservation concludeth not Transubstantiation, which is the matter now in question, I forbear further examination of the particular Testimonies produced by him. Jesuit. Against this consent of Fathers, Protestants object the Testimony of Theodoret and Gelasius, who in plain terms affirm, That the substance of Bread and Wine remains in this holy Eucharist, bringing this as an example of the Incarnation, where the Natures of God and man remain in Christ: Signa mystica (saith Theodoret) Theodoret. Dial. Inconfusus. post sanctificationem non recedunt à sua natura. And Gelasius, Non esse desinit substantia vel natura Panis Gelasius, d. duabus naturis advers. Eutichet. & Vini: I answer, That these Fathers, by the substance of Bread and Wine, understand the natural qualities that flow from the nature and essence of Bread and Wine; for ordinarily, and in common speech, the natural accidents and proprieties of a thing are termed the nature of the thing. Thus we say, That to be heavy, and to fall downward, is the nature of the Stone; to be hot, and to burn, is the nature of the Fire, which yet are but natural qualities and properties of Stone and Fire. By this, or rather by a more strange manner of speech, S. Theodote, Bishop Hom. d. Natiu. Saivatoris, in Concil-Eph. pa. 3. c. 9 of Ancyra, to explicate against Nestorius and Eutyches the conjunction of two Natures in one Person, by the example of the Water that Moses converted into Blood, saith, That the Water was not changed in nature, nor did cease to be Water; which in rigour of speech, taking the nature of Water for the substance thereof, as condistinct from the natural qualities, is not true. But because Water changed into Blood, remains, according to some natural qualities and properties which it hath common with Blood, as Moisture, Liquidnesse, and the like; he the better to sit and accommodate the similitude, saith, The Water remained according to the nature, that is, according to some natural qualities thereof. For these Fathers bring those similitudes, to declare the Mystery of the Incarnation against the Heresy of Eutyches, who denied the natural qualities and properties of the two Natures of God and man to remain distinct in the Person of Christ: which Error they rejected, by the example of the Eucharist, where the natural qualities of Bread remain together with the Body of Christ in the same Sacrament. Which natural qualities of Bread, they term the nature of Bread (as in some sense they may be termed) to the end, that the phrase of two distinct Natures remaining, might seem common to the Mysteries of both the Incarnation and Eucharist, and so the similitude seem more fit and proper; though the Fathers knew well, that the phrase did not agree to both Mysteries equally in the same sense. Which obscure uttering his mind, is the less to be wondered at in Theodoret, because he doth profess in that place, not to speak plainly, as fearing that some Infidels or Catechumes were present, to whom the Mystery of Transubstantiation was not to be revealed Non oportet (saith he) aperte dicere est, enim veresimile adesse aliquos non initiatos. Much less cause have they to stand upon the words of S. Augustine, Quod videtur in Altari panis est, quod etiam occuli renunciant. Quod autem fides postulat panis est corpus Christi: For the sense is, That consecrated Bread is Bread in outward appearance, and the natural Accidences of Bread truly remain, as the eye doth witness; but inwardly, and according to the substance, it is not Bread, but the Body of Christ, as Faith requireth we believe. And it is to be noted, that these words are not extant in the works of S. Augustine, but alleged by venerable Bede, a follower of S. Augustine's Doctrine; and so it is not likely they are to be understood, but as Bede understood them, who sets down his mind in these words: The form of Bread is seen, but the substance Beda de Mysterio Missae, apud Thom. walden's. to. 2. c. 8. 2. of Bread is not there, nor any other Bread, but only that Bread which came down from Heaven. ANSWER. Demonstration hath largely been made by our part, that none of the ancient Fathers maintained Romish Transubstantiation: and I have not observed one express Testimony, produced by Romists, wherein the Primative Fathers, nay, where Damascene a 〈◊〉. d. fid. lib. 4. ca 14. Quemad. naturaliter panis per comestionem, & vinum per potum transmutatur in 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 comedentis: ita per invocationem & adventum Sp. Sancti, substantia panis, & vini supernaturaliter transit in corpus & sanguinem Christi. Now from hence Durand 〈◊〉, Est autem manifestum, panis materiam manner in 〈◊〉 per mutationem naturalem, Ergo, similiter in conuersione supernaturali, panis & vini 〈◊〉 manet cum corpore Christi. Theoph. sup. 〈◊〉. 6. or Theophilact affirm, That the whole material substance, and form essential of bread and wine being destroyed, the bare accidents and quantity of bread and wine remain; or that the abstracted figures and qualities of those creatures, are received into the mouth and stomach, and are tasted, felt, and confer nourishment, without any earthly matter conjoined to them. But on the contrary, many Fathers affirm, That after consecration, bread and wine remain. Theodoret b Theod. Dial. 2. cap. 24. Nequaquam enim post 〈◊〉 mystica symbola 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 figuram, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Manent 〈◊〉 in priore substantia & 〈◊〉 & specie: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. saith, That they lose not their proper nature, but remain after they are sanctified, in their former essence, figure, and kind. Gelasius c Gelas. c. Eutich. & 〈◊〉. Biblioth. 〈◊〉 to. 4. pa. 565. saith, Esse non desinit substantia, vel natura panis & vini, The substance or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not to be. Bertram d Bertram. d. corp. & sang. Dom. pa. 38. saith, Secundam creaturarum substantiam, quod fuerunt ante consecrationem hoc & postea consistunt? According to the substance of creatures, they persist the same before and after consecration. Ireneus e Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. teacheth, That bread which is from the earth, receiving divine calling or sanctification, is not common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two several things, or matters, one earthly, and the other celestial. Saint Chrysostome f Chrysost. ad Ca 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Sicut ante quam 〈◊〉, panem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 autem illum 〈◊〉 gratia mediante Sacerdote, liberatus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ab appellatione panis, dignus autem habitus est dominici corporis appellatione, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 panis in ipso permansit, etc. , Before Sanctification we call it bread only, but when divine Grace hath sanctified it, it is delivered from the name of bread, and is counted worthy of the Appellation of the Lords body, although the nature of bread remain in it still. Damascene g 〈◊〉. Orth. Fid. lib. 4. cap. 14. saith, As a fiery coal, is wood and fire, so the bread of the holy Communion, is not only bread, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, but bread united to the Divinity, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. But it is apparent, that when fire is united to a coal, that the material substance of wood remaineth, at least in part. The Adversary, in answer to Theoderit and Gelasius, pretendeth that these Fathers, by the words, Substance, Nature, and Kind, understand only the natural qualities and accidents which flow from the Nature and Essence of Bread and Wine, and he yieldeth a reason, saying, That in ordinary speech, the natural properties and qualities of things, are termed, the nature of the thing, etc. But this Answer is insufficient, because it might perhaps salve the Objection grounded upon the word Nature; but the Fathers affirm also, that the Sacramental signs remain in their essence, substance, and kind; and they add farther, that they may be sensibly tasted and felt a Theod. Dial. 2. cap. 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and have force of nourishing the body, and that they are compounded of many corns, and of many grapes b Jren. lib. 5. c. 1. Justin. Apol. 2. Cyprian. Epist. 63. & 76. Chrys. 1. Cor. Hom. 24. Cyril. in joh. lib. 3. cap. 34. Aug. in joh. tr. 26. , which make one substantial body of bread and wine. Now these things cannot truly be said of the naked shapes and accidents of bread and wine, suspended and divided from their material substance. Besides, the Fathers c Theod. Dial. 1. cap. 8. & 2. cap. 24. Gelasius li. c. Nestor. & Eutich. deliver the foresaid Doctrine, to prove the verity and distinction of the two substantial natures in Christ, by making a comparison between the holy Eucharist, and the two natures in Christ's Person; but if the substance of bread and wine cease, and are changed into the very body and blood of Christ, than the former comparison would rather confirm the false belief of the Heretic, than maintain the Orthodoxal Faith of Christ's humanity, remaining even after his Ascension: for the Heretic might infer upon the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, two errors about the humane nature of Christ. First, That as in the Eucharist there is only the outward Theod. Dialogo 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. shape and form of bread, and not the real substance: even so in Christ, there was the shape and form of flesh, but not the very nature. Secondly, Even as in the Eucharist, the essential form and material substance of bread and wine are swallowed up and converted into the body and blood of Christ; so likewise after Christ's Ascension, the humane nature is absorbed, and converted into the Deity. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. The seeming repugnancies this Mystery hath with sense, should incline Christians the sooner to believe it. THe former proof of Transubstantiation might satisfy, were this Mystery easy, and not accompanied with many seeming absurdities and repugnances against sense, 〈◊〉 these four. First, That a body as big as our Saviour's, remaining still truly corpulent in itself, should be contained within the compass of a round Host, scarce an inch long and broad. Secondly, That a body so glorious should be combined unto corruptible elements, and so made subject unto the indignities and obscenities that may befall unto them. Thirdly, That the same body may be in heaven, and on earth in innumerable places at once. Fourthly, That the substance of bread being converted into Christ's body, the sole accidents remain by themselves, performing the whole office of substance, no less than if it were present, even to the nutrition of man's body. These difficulties so scandalise Protestants, that some condemn Transubstantiation, as impossible: yea, as absurd, ridiculous, barbarous; others profess they cannot subdue Field, of the Church, lib. 3. their understandings to believe it as a 〈◊〉 of Faith. To give full satisfaction in this point, I set down this Proposition; That these seeming absurdities should not avert, but rather incline a true Christian mind to believe this Mystery. In proof whereof, I present unto your Majesty these three Considerations. ANSWER. We measure not supernatural Doctrine, by humane sense or reason; neither can any seeming repugnances of reputed Philosophy, to Divine Revelation hinder our Faith, where the holy Ghost commands us to believe a Chrys. in 2. Tim. ca 1. ho. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 August. d. Temp. ser. 147. Si argumenta 〈◊〉 difficilè soluimus, illud quod demonstratum est in Domino sinè difficultate fidei teneamus, illi garriant, nos credamus. Idem. d. Civit Dei, lib. 12. ca 17. , as appeareth in the articles of the sacred Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection, etc. Est quidem de communibus sensibus sapere in Dei rebus, sed in testimonium veri, non in adiutorium falsi, quod sit secundum divinam, non contrà divinam dispositionem, saith Tertullian b Tertull. d. Resur. car. cap. 3. Hieron. Proaem. in Dan. Hilar. d. Trinit. lib. 1. Respuit captiosas & inutiles Philosophiae quaestiones fides constans, nequè humanarum ineptiarum fallacijs succumbens, spolium se praebet veritas falsitati. Aug. d. Trinit. lib. 1. cap. 1. Fidei contemnentes initium, immaturo & perverso rationis amore falluntur. Idem. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 18. cap. 40. Aug. d. Doctrine. Chrst. lib. 2. cap. 18. , We must have understanding in the things of God out of common sense, but this must serve to testify truth, and not to patronise error, according to divine disposition (Revelation) not against it. So far as sense and reason are not repugnant to divine verity, but subseruient, we may give credit to them, and every good Christian (saith S. Augustine) Vbicunque invenerit veritatem, Domini sui intelligat esse, Wheresoever he findeth verity (taught either by nature or grace) must understand, that it is his masters. The question between the Romists and us is not, Whether if Transubstantiation be revealed by God, we may notwithstanding therefore refuse to believe it, because the matter is difficile to be conceived, or because it hath many seeming repugnances to sense; for if they be able to demonstrate the first, we must renounce the latter: But the question is, Whether Transubstantiation, having no certain and manifest ground in divine Revelation, and many repugnances to common sense and reason; and beside, being expressly repugnant to the letter of the Scripture, we are to believe the same? First, the holy Scripture calleth consecrated Wine, the fruit of the Vine; and consecrated Bread, by the name of very Bread, Luc. 22.18.1. Cor. 10.16. & 11.26.27.28. Secondly, the same affirmeth not that the substance of Bread and Wine is abolished. Thirdly, natural reason showeth, that accidents must have a subject of inhaerencie, and that bare forms and shadows of things cannot nourish without corporal substance. Fourthly, the senses of Taste and Feeling discern apparently a corporietie in the elements received. In this case there is no reason to imagine that our senses are deluded, or that God almighty by miracle worketh in a contrary manner, to the course of nature, and to that which he hath otherwise revealed in his word. It is not sufficient for Romists to affirm, That God useth a miraculous course in these things; and to palliate absurdities, repugnant to sense, reason, and scripture, under pretext of God's omnipotency: but they must prove by divine Revelation, that he will do this, for God effecteth not all things by his omnipotency, which men may imagine to be possible. In the words of our Saviour, This is my Body, This cup is the new Testament in my Blood, etc. there is not a syllable concerning accidents without a subject, or concerning any miracle wrought in the Sacrament by omnipotency, neither is there any such doctrine elsewhere revealed. And if Christ's words be expounded figuratively according to S. Augustine a Aug. in Psa. 3. Idem. d. Doctr. Chr. lib. 3. cap. 16. Idem. in Levit. q. 57 Idem c. Adimant. cap. 12. , Tertullian b Tertull. cont. Marc. , Theoderit c Theod. 〈◊〉. 1. , Origen d Orig. c. 〈◊〉. Dial. 3. d. 〈◊〉, hom. pa. 552. , Bertram e Bertram. d. Corp. & San. Dom. 〈◊〉. sup. Mat. 26. ca 65. pa. 305. , etc. they make nothing for corporal presence by indistance of place: and if they be understood literally, they prove not Transubstantiation; for Bread may be called the body of Christ by an inusitate form of speaking f Busherus. Exercit. d. Eucha. pars 2. Sect. 2. Inusitata praedicatio est in qua duae res disparatae vocibus proprijs affirmate 〈◊〉 unumque dicitur 〈◊〉, proptèr arctissimam coniunctionem & realem, 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉 praesentiam. , which according to the Tenet of some learned Divines g Melanchton. Chemnicius. is no trope or figure. And if neither of these expositions content our Adversaries, they might have believed the words of the holy Text as they sound literally, and a real presence of Christ's Body and Blood wrought by the power of the holy Ghost, without defining and determining the express manner how. For if they believe that accidents subsist without a substance, and nourish, and are tasted, and felt, and pass into the stomach h Innocent. 3. Myst. Miss. lib. 4. cap. 9 Post consecrationem accidens est sinè subiecto, quià existit 〈◊〉 per se. Transit enim substantia, sed remanent accidentia: nec dicitur accidens in 〈◊〉 participij, sed accipiendum est in vi nominis. Non solum accidientales verum etiàm naturales proprietates remanere videntur ut paneitas quae saturando famem expellit, & vinitas quae satiando sitim extinguit. , and yet are not able to express the distinct manner how: and if they believe a substantial presence of Christ's individual humane body in many hosts, and yet are unable to declare the manner how i Ibid. ca 8. Verum an parts in parts, & 〈◊〉 transeat in totale, novit ille qui facit. Ego quod 〈◊〉 est, igni comburo: nam credere iubemur discutere prohibemur. Ibid. Licet corpus Dominicum sit in loco locale, quaeritur tamèn utrum in Sacramento sit locatum localitèr, id est utrum faciat localem distantiam, & an habeat localem situm, ut dici debeat quià sedet, iacet, aut 〈◊〉, said & 〈◊〉 multa circà praesentem articulum possunt inquiri, quae melius est intacta relinquere, quam temere definite, nàm bestia qua tetigerit montem lapidabitur. Ibid. cap. 12. Ego, divina Sacramenta magis veneranda quam discutienda profiteor. Ibid. cap. 16. Si quaeratur utrum 〈◊〉 localitèr 〈◊〉 de Coelo, vel ascendat in Coelum, cum exhibet 〈◊〉 praesentiam corporalem an alitèr incipiat vel 〈◊〉 esse 〈◊〉 specie 〈◊〉. Respondeo non oportere nos in talibus curiosos existere, ne plus quam possumus praesumamus, & non 〈◊〉, salubre concilium dedit Apostolus, Noli plus sapere quam 〈◊〉, etc. Ego nescio quomodo Christus accedit, sed & quomodo recedit ignoro, novit ille qui nihil ignorat. ; Why might they not have suspended other questions concerning the distinct manner of presence, and maintained only a true and mystical presence, the distinct manner whereof is incomprehensible in this life, and not have disturbed the peace of the Church by defining as an article of Faith, such a doctrine as hath no foundation in divine Revelation, to make it appear certain and infallible? JESVITS 1. Consideration. The first is grounded upon the supposal of two things most certain. First, that the Primitive Church preaching unto Pagans, jews, and other Infidels, the rest of Christian mysteries, as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection of the body, did most carefully keep as much as might be from their knowledge, the mysteries of the Eucharist; yea Catechumen and Novices were not, before Baptism, fully taught or instructed therein. Secondly, the reason moving the Primitive Church to be careful in this point, was, least Catechumen and Infidels being fully acquainted with the whole mystery, the one should be scandalised, and the other mock thereat. Hence it was accounted such a heinous offence, that Christians should discover this secret unto Infidels, or dispute about the difficulties thereof, in their presence. The Council of Alexandria, Concil. Alexan. apud Athanasium, Apolog. 2. relating the crimes of Arians, number this as one of the greatest, They were not ashamed in public, and as it were upon a scaffold, to treat of the mysteries before Catechumen, and which is worse, before Pagans. And a little after, It is not lawful to publish the Mysteries before them that are not initiated, for fear least Pagans out of ignorance mock, and Catechumen entering into curiosities, be scandalised. And again, Before Catechumen, and which is more, before jews and Pagans, blaspheming Christianity, they handled a question about the Epist. julij apud Athanas. Apol 2. Body and Blood of our Saviour. S. Ambrose saith, To declare the mysteries unto them that be Catechumen, is not Tradition but Prodition: seeing by such declarations danger is incurred, lest they be diuulged unto Jnfidels that will scoff at them. This supposed, I infer that the seeming absur ditties of the Catholic real presence should encourage a true Christian mind to believe it: for a true Christian desires to believe, and firmly cleave unto the real presence that was believed by the Primitive Church. But this was a real presence, accompanied with many (so seemingly gross) absurdities, that the Church had no hope to satisfy Infidels therein, or to keep them from blaspheming, but by concealing the mystery from them; and consequently they held the Catholic not the Protestant Doctrine in this point. The Protestant Doctrine that makes Christ's body present spiritually by Faith unto the devout Receiver, that communicating, thinks sweetly of Christ's passion and death, contains no mystery to be concealed, in respect of the seeming absurdities. ANSWER. In the days of the Fathers, Heathens, jews, and Heretics might enter into the Church, and hear the public Sermons, and preaching, as appeareth by the fourth council of Carthage a Concil. Carth. 4. cap. 84. Episcopus nullum prohibeat ingredi in Ecclesiam, & audire verbum Dei siuè Gentilem, siuè judaeum, siuè Haereticum, usque ad Missam Catechuminotum, d. Consecrat. Dist. 1. ca 67. Durant. d. Rit. Eccl. Cath. li. 2. ca 1. n. 2. , and Infidels might read the books and tractates of the Fathers: But the Fathers in their sermons to the people, and also in their written books, delivered the Doctrine of the holy mysteries, as appeareth by Ireneus, justin Martyr, S. Cyprian, Gregory Nissen, Cyrill of Jerusalem, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, S. Ambrose, etc. Neither is it apparent that the said Fathers taught any other secret Doctrine, touching the holy mysteries, than such as they preached in their Homilies, and penned in their Books: and therefore these Homilies and Books being public, it appeareth not, that the Primitive Church was more careful to conceal the Doctrine of the Eucharist than of Baptism, or of the Trinity. The Objections out of Athanasius and S. Ambrose, show that it was held unlawful in those ages to treat or dispute of the holy Eucharist intempestiuè, that is, before Heathens which were not at all instructed in the first Principles of Religion; or to treat of this Doctrine in profane places or auditories. But what is this to Transubstantiation? For it was held unlawful in the Primitive Church, in manner aforesaid, that is, in an undue time, order, & place, to treat or dispute of the mysteries of Baptism, or of other profound mysteries belonging to Christian faith b Dionis. Hierarch. ca 1. Obserua diligentius, ne sancta sanctorum esseras, nec prophanis luminibus violanda 〈◊〉, verum revereber is magis. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. 〈◊〉; Dei mysteria, mysteria spiritatibus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 honorabis, atquè intemerata seruabis, nequè ea passim 〈◊〉 trades, sed sanctis solis, sanctarum rerum intelligentias sacratius pandens. Ib. lpsi quoquè sanctissimi principes nostridum sacra publicè agenda 〈◊〉, non 〈◊〉 & patulis 〈◊〉 sed 〈◊〉 augustioribus tradiderunt. Ib. ca 2. d. Baptismo. Nullus qui rudimentis 〈◊〉 careat, pergat ad videndum: Nam nequè infirmis pupillis, adversam solaribus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intendere tutum est. . Also if it were granted that some ancient Fathers believing a real Presence, did therefore conceal the doctrine of the holy Eucharist, Ratione scandali, because of offence of Infidels, arising upon many difficulties and seeming contradictions to sense and common reason, it followeth not from hence, that those Fathers believed Popish Transubstantiation, for many difficulties and repugnances to sense and common reason, are found in Consubstantiation, as well as in Transubstantiation, and sundry places of the Fathers, may with more probability be alleged in favour of real Presence by Consubstantiation, than for Transubstantiation. Lastly, The mystical union between Christ and his members, is ineffable, and the manner incomprehensible: and the Protestant Doctrine teaching a real donation of the body and blood of Christ, and a mystical conjunction by the operation of the holy Ghost, with the souls of faithful Receivers; and that dead and corruptible creatures, can be a means and instrument hereof, is a great mystery of godliness, incredible to profane persons: and therefore the Primitive Church, which believed this Doctrine, might justly require, that this Mystery should not be manifested before Infidels and other infirm Christians, until they were first instructed in the rudiments of Christianity. Jesuit. Yea, the Fathers did not fear to declare unto Catechumen this Sacrament, so far as it was commemorative of Christ and his Passion, as appeareth by the Treatises of Saint Augustine upon Saint john, made before Catechumen; out of which Treatises, Protestants, for their mere commemorative presence, allege many Sentences to little purpose. For he there explicates spiritual manducation by Faith, and he excludes the gross imagination of eating Christ's body in his proper shape, tearing it in pieces with the tooth; but denies not, yea rather insinuates another kind of spiritual manducation, not only by Faith, but by real sumption, though to conceal the Mystery from Catechumen, he speaks not so clearly thereof. Wherefore as the Palm tree, the heavier the weight is that is laid upon it, the more it riseth upwards, as it were joying in difficulties: so a true Catholic Christian, feeling in the doctrine of Transubstantiation, many seeming absurdities, that press carnal imagination to the ground, groweth thereby more strong to believe it, embracing these difficulties as manifest signs that this doctrine was believed by the Primitive Apostolical Church. On the other side, Protestants finding the Presence of Christ's body by Faith to be devoid of such difficulties, may by the very lightness thereof suspect it is not the doctrine which the Fathers concealed from Jnfidells, as more absurd to humane Imagination than any other mystery of Christian Religion. ANSWER. You object, that the Fathers declared to Catechumen, that is, to Novices in Christianity, a commemorative presence in the holy Eucharist, but not a corporal presence by Transubstantiation: and from hence you would infer, that the Fathers held two kinds of Presences of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist, the one solely spiritual, by intellectual apprehension, the other corporal, by real sumption of Christ's body into the mouth and stomach of the receiver, and you pretend; that S. Augustine was of this judgement. But you must remember, that you are not now to deal with Adversaries which will credit your bare words, and proofs you have none. Therefore I answer, First, that the Fathers taught no other kind of Presence, to them which were baptised, and received the holy Eucharist, than to Catechumen or vnbaptised Christians, although they instructed the one sort more fully than the other. Secondly, S. Augustine teacheth not, that Christ's body is received invisibly, insensibly, and according to the nature of a spirit, by the mouth and stomach of each Communicant: but he teacheth only two kinds of manducation in the Sacrament; one, both corporal and spiritual, wherein the body of man receiveth the external elements of Bread and Wine, and the soul receiveth the true body and blood of Christ by faith a Aug. in joh. tr. 26. Visibilem cibum spiritualiter intellexerunt, spiritualiter esurierunt, spiritualiter gustaverunt, ut spiritualiter 〈◊〉: Nam & nos hodie 〈◊〉 visibilem cibum, sed aliud est Sacramentum, aliud est virtus Sacramenti. ; the other corporeal only, wherein the receiver partaketh the outward sign, and not the thing signified, Panem Domini, non panem Dominum b Ib. tr. 27. Res ipsa 〈◊〉 est Sacramentum, omni 〈◊〉 ad vitam, nulli ad exitium, quicunque eius particeps fuerit. , the visible Sacrament of Christ's body c Aug Sup. joh. tr. 26. Hoc est manducare illam escam, & illum bibere 〈◊〉, in Christo manner & illum manentem in se habere. Ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo, & in quo non manet Christus, procul dubio nec manducat spiritualiter carnem 〈◊〉, nec bibit eius sanguinem, licet carnaliter & visibiliter premat dentibus Sacramentum corporis & sanguinis Christi, sed magis tantae rei Sacramentum ad 〈◊〉 sibi manducat & bibit. Ibid. 〈◊〉. 27. Non ita est in hac esca, quam sustentandae huius corporis vitae causa sumimus, nam qui eam non sumpserit non vivet. Nec tamen qui eam sumpserit 〈◊〉. Fieri enim potest ut senio vel morbo, vel aliquo casu plurimi & qui eam sumpserint moriantur: in hoc vero cibo & potu, id est corpore & sanguine Domini, non ita est. Name & qui eam non sumit, non habet vitam, & qui eam sumit, habet vitam & hanc 〈◊〉. Ibid. Vt quisquam vivat propter me, participatio facit, qua manducatum, etc. , but not his very body: and he affirmeth not upon the sixth chapter of S. john, That a malicious sinner, continuing such, receiveth the very body and blood of Christ. Thirdly, Protestants believe not only a commemorative, but also an exhibitive presence of the thing signified, together with the outward sign, according to the manner formerly declared, pag. 405. and this Presence is mystical, and such as may seem incredible to unbelcevers, because of sundry difficulties, repugnant to common sense, to wit, That Christ's flesh, by the unspeakable power of the holy Ghost, should be after a sort incorporated into the soul, and that corruptible and dead creatures should be elevated, and made effectual instruments to apply and communicate jesus Christ, and the virtue of his death to faithful Communicants. JESVITS 2. Consideration. This consideration is drawn from the quality of the difficulties objected against this Mystery, which be such, as a Christian in honour should neglect them. For if it be the part of a prudent and intelligent man, not to permit Imagination to prevail against his Reason; What a disgrace is it for a Christian, that his faith should be conquered by these kind of difficulties? For, that the seeming absurdities of this mystery be not in respect of natural Reason, but merely of Jmagination, may hence appear, that some natural truths be in a manner as difficile and incredible, which will be seen if we compare the four above mentioned difficulties, with the difficulties some truths (evident in nature) have. ANSWER. When difficulties objected arise from experience of sense, and principles of nature, and there is no express or manifest word of God sufficient to move us to believe the contrary, it is the part of each intelligent and prudent man, rather to credit that which is apparent to sense, and common reason a Aug. d. Trin. li. 4. ca 6. Contra rationem nemo sobrius, etc. Ibid. li. 3. ca 11. Extat authoritas divinarum Scriprurarum, unde mens nostra deviare non debet, nec relicto solidamento divini 〈◊〉, per suspicionum suarum abrupta precipitari, ubi nec sensus corporis regit, nec perspicua ratio veritatis elucet. , than to believe Paradoxes upon no true ground and reason. Jesuit. First, we cannot imagine, that the whole body of Christ can be contained in the compass of a small Host. But it is not more incredible, that in a thing of small quantititie, for example the wing of a Fly, there should be so many parts, as unfolded and laid together would cover the whole face of the world, both of heaven and earth. And yet it is demonstrable in Philosophy, That even in the wing of a Fly there are so many parts, as broad and long as the wing, though still thinner and thinner, that Almighty God separating and unfolding them, may therewith cover the whole world. For certain it is, that some finite number of such parts, so separated each of them as long and as broad as a Fly's wing, would cover the face of the whole world: certain also it is, That the wing of the Fly, is still divisible into more and more such parts, so that no finite number is assignable, but God may still separate from that wing a greater number, without any end: therefore it is certain, that in the wing of a Fly, there is so much quantity as is sufficient to cover the face of the whole world, both of heaven and earth, if God would but separate and unfold the same. Is not this Secret of Philosophy as incredible to carnal Imagination, as the being of Christ's body, within a small Host? We that cannot comprehend things we see with eyes, and feel with hands, certainly we shall have much ado at the day of Judgement, to justify our not believing any part of God's word, by reason of the seeming absurdity thereof. ANSWER. You are not able to demonstrate, that God will have us believe that the whole Organical body of Christ, having the stature, quantity, and magnitude of a perfect man's body, is contained in the compass of a small Host, or in a crumb of Bread: for that Christ jesus hath a true and perfect body, differing in kind from a Spirit, from an Angel, and from an immaterial substance, divine revelation teacheth: but that the same individual and corporeal substance, partaketh the spiritual manner of Angelical existence, and the divine immensity, simplicity, and omnipresence, as Bellarmine a Bel. d. Euchar. li. 1. ca 2. & ca 14. & li. 3. ca 4. affirmeth, is not reueiled unto us by the holy Ghost, neither can the same be inferred ex Revelatis, from any plain and evident truth which God hath revealed b Scotus. 4. dist. 11. q. 3. Faventin. 4. d. 11. Disp. 45. ca 3. Neque enim plura credita ponidebent, quam convinci possit ex veritate creditorum. . Neither is it revealed that the Abstracted forms, and accidents of Bread and Wine subsist, or are tasted, and felt, or nourish the body, and are afterwards corrupted, according to the manner of corporeal food, having no substantial, or material nature in them. Therefore this large tract, wherein the Obiectour laboureth to prove a possibility of the former, by divine miracle and omnipotency, is unworthy our examination: for we make no question of God's omnipotent power, in effecting whatsoever himself pleaseth (as hath been formerly answered, Pag. 181.) Yet the Fathers c Aug. c. Faust. li. 26. and Schoolmen very well d AEgid. Rom. in 1. Sent. d. 42. q. 4. Cum quaeritur, utrum aliquid sit deo possibile, quod naturae fit impossibile, distinguendum est de impossibili, quia si huiusmodi impossibile dicitur, quia repugnat ipsi esse, prout est verificatio contradictoriorum, sic quod naturae impossibile est, est Deo impossibile. Ibid. Secundum quod aliqua implicanit contradictonem, sic effugiunt rationem Potentiae. teach us, That such things as imply a contradiction, and falsity, are not the object of divine power; and they teach us further, that there is a twofold power in God, Ordinata, & Absoluta e Greg. Armin. in 1. Sent. d. 42. q. Aquin. 1. q. 25. art. 5. Suar. d. Attrib. Dei. li. 3. ca 9 n. 18. Caietan. 1. q. 52. ar. 2. Non quaerimus in hac re quid potentia Dei possit absolute, sed quid 〈◊〉 ordo habet. , one according to the order which himself hath fixed by his word and will, the other, according to the infiniteness of his essence, and which exceedeth his will. Now according to the power of God, measured and regulate by his word and will, all things are impossible, which God will not have to be. And thus we say, that it is impossible that the whole body of Christ can be in one crumb of Bread, or substantially present in many places at one instant: and accidents cannot subsist, or be tasted, felt, and nourish, and be converted into the substance of man's body, without a material subject of inherency, to sustain and give force unto them. But on the contrary, we dispute not, what God is able to effect by his absolute power, neither is this question of any use in the matter now in hand; for the natural kind of the things themselves, created by God and the Doctrine of holy Scripture, teach us what is the revealed will of God: but that he changeth this Ordinance which himself hath fixed, no Divine Testimony or Revelation affirmeth, or teacheth. The sole pretext which Papals have, to palliate the absurdities pursuing Transubstantiation at the heels, are the words of Institution: But there is nothing coactive in the said words to prove this Romish Article, by the confession of the best learned Papists, as I have formerly proved, pag. 414. And besides many other Reasons, This Argument out of our Saviour's words is most strong against Transubstantiation: If nothing be found in our Saviour's words, This is my Body, which proveth the conversion of the substance of bread into Christ's body, more than which is likewise found, to change the quantity and accidents, then Popish Transubstantiation, being only a conversion of substance, and not of quantity and accidents, cannot be concluded out of our Saviour's words. But nothing is found in our Saviour's words, This is my Body, etc. proving any more the conversion of substance, than of quantity and accidents: for our Saviour took the whole bread, both according to the substance, and also according to the quantity and accidents thereof, into his hands, and blessed and consecrated the same entirely, with the like thanksgiving and pronunciation of words, and performed all things to the one as well as to the other. Therefore if our Saviour's words prove Transubstantiation of the substance of Bread and Wine, they must likewise prove conversion of the quantity and accidents into Christ's body and blood. But by the confession of Papals, they do not the latter: for the quantity and accidents are not converted into Christ's body and blood; and consequently, they do not the former. Now this being apparent, the Popish Doctrine of Transubstantiation hath no foundation in our Saviour's words, This is my body, etc. I supersede therefore, to examine the Obiectors particular Arguments, among which, one is learnedly borrowed from the flies wing, which according to Romish Philosophy, may be thinned, extended, and enlarged, to make a case (such perhaps as Base Viols have) to put the whole world into. Every puny in our Universities can distinguish between Mathematical or Potential division of a body, and Physical or Actual: Aristotle himself teaching us, that there is Minima caro, though there be not Corpus minimum. But this fictious Cosmotecture and case, may well be paraled to the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, and they are twins, the one as credible and infallible in Theology as the other in Philosophy. But if our Adversary would be pleased to respite us from believing Transubstantiation, as an Article of our Creed, until his vast words cap-case made of a flies wing be finished, he shall find us more flexible and prone to credit his Romish Doctrine in this and other Articles. Jesuit. Secondly, We cannot imagine the body of Christ to be really combined unto the consecrated forms, and not to be polluted by such indignities as may happen unto the forms; yet we have seen, or may see, things able to make this not to seem incredible: for holy men often by Prayer so purify their souls, and by contemplation, bring their spirits to such an independency of their senses, that neither bitter meats offend their tastes, nor loathsome scents their smell, nor shrill cries their hearing, yea, burnings and torturings are not perceived, their spirit being eloyned through Divine unpolluted affection, from the contagion of the body, unto the substance whereof it still remains most really united. This being so, cannot the glorious body of Christ (graced with most Divine Ornaments, flowing from the excessive bliss of the soul, made spiritual, impassable, and insearchable) be really present, unto the forms of consecrated bread, and yet free, immune, and wholly independent of any contagion or corruption that may happen to those forms; especially the body of Christ, not being so strictly and substantially tied unto the forms, as the spirit is to the body it informeth, but is present unto them, as an Angel assistant is to the body wherein he worketh. What dishonour can it be to attribute to Christ's most venerable body, this spiritual manner of Angelical presence, yea, rather a participation of the Divine Immensity? for as God by his incomprehensible Immensity exists every where, no less pure in the sink than in the Sun, no less sweet in the dunghill, than in a Garden of odoriferous flowers: So the body of Christ, by supernatural participation of his Divine Presence, is really upon earth, in things visible invisible, in things hurtful impassable, in things noisome inviolable, in things impure immaculable; to his friends that receive him with love, most sweet and comfortable, and overflowing in Graces; but to the unworthy present, in a manner dead and senseless, as if he were not there at all. And as he that receives into his arms a body, wherein the spirit absorbed in contemplation, neither feeling nor felt, lieth enclosed, may be said to embrace the body without the spirit, which is in that body insensible, and as good as if it were not there: so they Aug. tract. 26. 〈◊〉 10. & 59 Caeteri Apostoli manducaverunt panem Dominum Iudas autem panem Domini. that receive unworthily, are sometimes said by the Fathers, to receive the Sacrament, without the body of Christ; because, though the body of Christ be really in the Sacrament they receive, yet he is there in a dead manner in regard of them, as if he were not there at all, because he stirs not up heavenly actions in them, nor makes them feel the workings of his grace and love in their senses. ANSWER. The glorified body of Christ, being impassable, cannot be polluted or corrupted: because, although it retaineth the same essential form, figure, and substance a August. de Genes. ad lit. lib. 12. cap. 7. Resurget corpus spiritale, eo quod miris modis, ad omnem facilitatem & incorruptionem, spiritui subdatur, & sine 〈◊〉 indigentia corporalium alimentorum, solo vivificetur spiritu, non quod incorpoream substantiam sit habiturum. Id. Epist. 111. Ita futurum sit spirituale corpus, ut propter ineffabilem quandam facilitatem, spirituale dicatur, seruet tamen substantiam corporalem. Id. Enchir. c. 91. Id. Ep. 56. , yet it is delivered from all terrene stains and frailty, and converted into celestial purity and stability a Aug. d. Fid. & Simb. ca 6. Non ità dictum est, quasi corpus vertatur in spiritum, & spiritus fiat: quià & nunc corpus nostrum quod animale dicitur, non in animam versum est, & anima factum, sed spirituale corpus intelligitur, quià ità coaptandum est, ut coelesti habitationi conveniat, omni fragilitate ac labe terrena in coelestem puritatem & stabilitatem mutata & conversa. . And as this body cannot be polluted, so likewise it cannot be masticated, or ground with men's teeth, as a Roman Synod under Pope Nicholas compelled Berengarius to confess b d. Consecrat. Dist. 2. c. Ego Berengarius. Panem & Vinum quae in altari ponuntur, post consecrationem non solum Sacramentum, sed etiàm verum corpus & sanguinem Domini nostri jesu Christi esse, & sensualitèr non solum Sacramento, said in veritate manibus Sacerdotum, tractari, frangi, & fidelium dentibus atteri. . But from impassibility to omnipresence and immensity, it followeth not, for impassibility is an affection of finite creatures, but omnipresence and immensity are divine and in communicable properties. And although in an ecstasy there is alienation and independency of the spirit upon the senses c Aquin. 22. q. 173. ar. 3. August. d. Gen. ad lit. li. 12. ca 26. & ad Simplician. q. 1. Greg. Mor. li. 5. ca 22. & li. 32. c. 7. , yet this argueth not that Christ's humane body is substantially and insensibly in the consecrated creatures of Bread and Wine, or according to the manner of Angelical presence, or rather a participation of divine immensity (as the jesuit, compelled to turn ubiquitary, speaketh) or without bodily stature, posture, and dimensions. Lastly, the Obiector saith, that wicked persons receive into their bodily mouths and stomach the substance of Christ's flesh. He proveth not this assertion, but bringeth only a similitude taken from the spirit of man in an ecstasy, and pretendeth that the Fathers did therefore affirm wicked persons to receive the outward Sacrament without the body of Christ, because Christ in regard of them, is in the Sacrament after a dead manner. But S. Augustine, and other Fathers speak not figuratively, or by similitude, but literally and expressly, saying, Non manducant illam carnem d Cyril. in joh. li. 4. ca 14. , wicked persons do not eat that flesh. The thing itself e Aug. in joh. 〈◊〉. 27. , to wit, the body of Christ, whereof this Bread is a Sacrament, is received of every man which eateth it, to life, and by no man, to death f Read before pag. 407. . Jesuit. Thirdly, We cannot imagine the same body can be in many places together at the same time: It is true, but as hardly can we imagine the soul to be in the head and in the feet of a man, one and the same without diui sion in itself; or an Angel to be in two towns of the country whereof he is precedent, as distant one from the other as York and London. Also who can conceive God, who is infinitely one and indivisible, to be both in heaven and on earth at once? What marvel then, that imagination fails us to Aug. Epist. 3. ad Volutian. apprehend the multiplied presence of Christ's body in the Sacrament, which is Spiritual, Angelical, Supernatural, comparable with the divine, that S. Gregory Nissen Gre. Nissen. in orat, d. Pasch. sticks not to say, Sicut Divinitas replet mundum, & tamen una est, ita innumerabilibus locis offertur, & tamen unum corpus est, The body of Christ being glorious, is, for operation as swift and agile as any thought; but a man's thought is so quick, that one may be by thought in two disjoined places at once; for example, in London and at Rome. Some Divines give such agility to Angels, that they can place themselves substantially where they please by a thought; and think, that as their thoughts, so like wise Caiet. 1. p. q. 52. ar. 2. Ferrar. 3. c. Gent. 〈◊〉. 65. Marcil. in 2. q. 2. ar. 2. Dion. Cysters. in 2. dist. 6. q. 1. ar. 1. conclus. 6. their substances are so independent of corporal space, that they can be naturally in two distinct places without being in the spaces interjacent. But the agility of Christ's glorious body is more excellent and perfect, as being supernatural, than the natural agility of Angels, yea than of thoughts; why then should we make any doubt but he may be disjoined in different places at once? ANSWER. This discourse being reduced to argumentation, is as followeth. If a soul may be in every part of the body, the thought of man in many places, an Angel in many distinct ubities, and if God is in heaven and earth; then the body of Christ may be in many places. But the first is true, Ergo, etc. It is answered, First, one part of the antecedent is false: for an Angel being a finite creature, is at one instant difinitively in one ubitie only a Hugo Victor. d. Sacram. li. 1. pa. 3. ca 18. Omne quod definitum est, secundum aliquid locale est, 〈◊〉 in eo ipso quod finem & terminum habet locum habet, & determinatlocum, sicut determinatum est in loco. 〈◊〉 corpus dimensionem habens, loco circumscribitur: quoniam ei secundum locum, principium, medium, & finis 〈◊〉. Spiritus vero quoniam demensionem non capit, sed definitione sola terminatur, circumscriptionem quidem non recipit loci, & tamèn loco quodammodo concluditur, quoniam cum hic alicubi praesens sit totus, alibi non invenitur. Aquin. p. 1. q. 52. ar. 2. Ib. Caiet. Marsil. 2. q. 2. ar. 1. Angeli sunt in loco definitiuè, quià sunt sic in uno situ, quod non sunt in alio quolibet. 〈◊〉. in li. 3. c. Gent. ca 68 Dicitur de ment sancti Thomae, quod unus Angel ' non potest esse simul in pluribus locis, ut plura sunt, id est, in quantum accipiuntur, ut duo loca, totalitèr distincta, quià ab una 〈◊〉 finita, non potest nisi una operatio 〈◊〉 simul, & consequenter nisi unus effectus, sed benè potest esse in pluribus locis, per modum unius loci ut 〈◊〉. unum totalem locum constituant. Bannes. in 1. p. Tho. q. 52. ar. 2. 〈◊〉. 3. ; for that which moveth and passeth from one ubitie to another, is not in both the places at once; but Angels move and pass from one place to another, Genes. 28. 12. Math. 4.11. & cap. 12.43. Marc. 5.12. joh. 5.4. Genes. 19.1. & 32.1. Apoc. 14.6. & ca 18.1. & 20.1. Damasc. li. 2. ca 3. Angeli dum sunt in terra non sunt in coelo, Whiles Angels are on earth they are not in heaven. And the opinion of some Schoolmen, alleged to the contrary, is not to be regarded, because their own fellows a Malon. in 〈◊〉. sent. lib. 2. d. Angelis disp. 9 sect. 2. teach, that there is no certainty of these and the like assertions. Secondly, the consequence is infirm, because of the difference which is between a body, and the things compared thereunto in the antecedent. First, the soul of man is in every member of the body, because it is the form thereof, and because it is by nature immaterial. Secondly, God is every where, because he is infinite. Thirdly, the thought of man is a spiritual or intentional motion and action, and not a substantial thing; therefore Speculando phantasmata, it may conceive and apprehend diverse distant objects Per modum unius b Bannes. in 1. p. Tho. q. 52. ar. 2. conclus. 〈◊〉. Aristoteles dixit, quod non possum' simul pluta intelligere per modum plurium. at one instant. Fourthly, Angels are immaterial substances, and therefore their motion and action is sudden, yet determined to one place, at one instant: but an humane body is material, finite, and limited to a certain space, and measure, and differeth from all the former things, mentioned in the argument, in kind, and motion, in manner of being present. (Read before pag. 180.) Ergo haec nihil ad Rhombum. Therefore all these instances, to this purpose and question of bodies, are no better than shadows without bodies. Jesuit. Fourthly, We find difficulty to conceive that accidents existing separated from any substance, can perform the office of substance, even to the nourishment of man's body; but we should perchance find as much difficulty to believe, That of a little kernel of an Apple, a great tree may be made and nourished, by the force and vigour proceeding from the same, did not we see by daily experience the same to be true; that ashes may be made of glass; that stones in the stomach of a Dove, iron in the belly of an Ostrich, be turned into flesh; that of a rotten bark of a tree falling into the water, should be bred and produced a perfect bird, to me seems more incredible, than that God should make the accidents of Bread, separated from their substance to nourish man's body: for the dead bark of a tree may seem to have no more efficacy of itself to produce a living creature, specially so perfect a bird as Barnacles, than have the accidents of Bread, to feed and breed the flesh of a living man. Yea many Philosophers teach, and in my judgement convince, that in substantial generations, where no cause coequal in perfection to the effect produced is present, God by his Omnipotency doth supply deficiency of natural causes: Why then should any man so much mislike our Doctrine, that in this Mystery, where the substance of Bread wants, God by the secret operation of his power, supplies the defect thereof; seeing by the opinion of many learned Philosophers, his providence (by the like secret special working) doth ordinarily, daily, and hourly, supply the manifold defects of substantial secondary Agents. Neither is the manner how God can do this, difsicile to explicate, For he may enable the quantity of Bread, to receive and sustain the working of man's nutritive power, and when in that quantity there is the last accidental disposition, to the form of flesh, he can secretly produce again Materiam primam that was of the Bread, and combine the same with the prepared quantity, and the substantial form of Flesh: What reason is there why God may not do this, yea do it sooner than we speak it? Wherefore the seeming absurdities of this mystery being (as I have showed) merely imaginary, and not like those against the Trinity, and the Incarnation, wherein not so much imagination, as reason, finds difficulty; it is the part not only of sincere Christian faith, but also of a clear excellent wit, to conceive them; and not to permit wand'ring unruly fancy, destitute of reason, to control our belief, about the literal sense of Christ's words, so many ways by the gravest testimonies of Antiquity recommended unto us. ANSWER. That Accidents may subsist, and have their natural force and operation, without a subject of support or inhaerencie, implies a contradiction; for it is of the being and definition of Accidents to be in another a Porphyr. Isagog. cap. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Accidentis esse est inesse. , or to be in their subject: And none of the Examples taken from a Kernel, Ashes, Iron in the belly of an Ostrich, the bark of a tree, etc. are ad idem, for these are not Accidents without a substance, but real bodies, having by nature a proportion and propension to produce their own effects, either as seminal causes, or true materials, converted by heat, fire, and art; or things putrescent, form, and animated by the heat of the Sun, and other secret and natural causes: That an Akorne should become an Oak, is wonderful, as the works of God are: yet it is as natural, as that a Lion begets a Lion, nay, as that the Sun or fire shineth. That of ashes is made glass, what is it, but that a transparent body is made of a body not transparent: so, Ye of Snow, etc. And concerning Stones, Iron, etc. I do not think that these feed or nourish Doves, Hawks, Struthiocameles, etc. but only cool or cleanse them: and this I count not impossible in nature, that vegetative heat should in short time dissolve stones. The Barnacles are generatio ex putri, as are Mice, Frogs, and Serpents: but what is this to accidents nourishing without matter and substance. Now for all the former, we know the truth and certainty by natural reason, and by experience of our senses: but there is no natural or supernatural rule or Law, no manifest demonstration either to sense or reason, no revelation of Faith, that the abstracted forms of bread and wine subsist without a subject, and have power to nourish, and may be tasted and felt, and also putrify: but Romists presumptuously form these Chimeras and Idols in the forge of their own deceived breast, and they deserve to be fed only with accidents (like Birds that pecked at the painted grapes b Plin. Nat. Hist. lib. 35. cap. 10. Cum ille (Xeuxis) detulisset vuas pictas tanto successu, ut in scenam aves advolarent, etc. ) which think to feed any intelligent Reader with such improper and extravagant accidents. JESVITS 3. Consideration. Thirdly, to make Christians incline to 〈◊〉 this Mystery, so difficile to carnal imagination, this Consideration may be very potent, to wit, that in believing the same, on the one side, there may be great merit, and excellent faith, if it be a truth; and on the other side, though (which is impossible) it should be false, yet in believing it, we shall not fall into any damnable error. For although we suppose this an impossible case, yet what can be laid to our charge, which we may not defend and justify by all the rules of equity and reason, if we be accused that we took Bread to be the body of Christ, adoring the same as God, so committing Idolatry, we may defend, that both for soul and body we are innocent herein. For seeing the body is not made guilty, but by a guilty mind, even our body may plead not guilty, seeing our mind, our thoughts, or devotion, were fully and totally referred unto Christ, whom we truly apprehend by faith, as vailed with the Accidents of Bread, and so may repel the reproach of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bread Worshippers, with saying: Quae novit mens est, pani nil vovimus illa. Neither did we believe that the Bread was changed into Christ's body upon sleight reasons, or moved by the fancies of our own head, but contrary to our fancies out of Reverence to the express words of Christ, This is my body. A sense declared by most ancient Fathers, defined by many general Counsels, delivered by full consent of our Ancestors, so practised in the Church for many ages without any known beginning; finally, confirmed with the most credible and constant report of innumerable most evident miracles. Can a Christian believe any points of Religion upon surer grounds? And if God at the day of judgement, will condemn none but such as living in this world wronged him in his honour, Why should Catholics fear any hard sentence in respect of their prompt Credulity of Transubstantiation, that is, of God's Word taken in the plain proper sense? Is it an 〈◊〉 to his verity, that they deny their senses, correct their imaginations, reform their discourses, abnegate their judgements, rather than not to believe what to them seemeth his Word? Is it an injury to his power, to be persuaded he can do things incomprehensible without number, put the same body in innumerable places at once? Make a body occupy no place, and yet remain a quantitative substance in itself? Is it injury to his charity, to think that love unto men makes him unite himself really and substantially with them, and to be (as it were) incarnate anew in every particular faithful man, entering really into their bodies to signify efficatiously his inward conjunction, by spirit, unto their souls? Finally, is it an injury to his Wisdom to believe that to satisfy on the one side the will of his Father, that would have him ever in heaven, sitting at his right hand; on the other side the Ardency of his own affection unto men, desiring to be perpetually with them, he invented a manner, how still remaining glorious in heaven, he might also be continually on earth, with his Church, secretly not to take from them the merit of faith, yet to afford full satisfaction to his own love, really by continuing personal presence and most intime conjunction with them. On the other side, it imports them that think Transubstantiation impossible, or that God cannot put the same body in different places at once, to consider, if they err (easy it is for men to err, that with the compass of their understandings measure the power of God) how dangerous and unexcusable their error will prove, when they shall be called to give unto their omnipotent Maker a final account, particularly of this Doctrine, so much derogating from him? Let them think how they will answer, if God lay to their charge the neglect of the most prudent and reasonable advice which S. Chrys. gives: Let us believe Chrys. Hom. 83. in Math. God (saith he) let us not reject his Word, though the same seem secret, and absurd unto our cogitation and sense, for his speech doth surpass our reason and sense, his words cannot deceive us, but our senses be deceived easily and often. How will they reply if they be pressed with the Interrogatory which S. Cyril makes unto such misbelievers; If Li. 12. in joh. ca 52. thou couldst not comprehend the divine operation of God, Why didst thou not accuse the imbecility of man's wit, rather than the omnipotency of God? Or how (disputing or proposing so many arguments against God's power, rejecting or questioning the same, because they could not understand it) they never called to mind the saying of S. Augustine, Aug. li. 22. d. Ciuit. Dei. ca 11. Ecce quibus argumentis divinae omnipotentiae, humana contradicit infirmitas? ANSWER. This third and last consideration is a mere declamation; grounded upon a vain supposition; for it presumeth as granted, the opinion of Transubstantiation, to be most probable, and reasonable, as being declared by many ancient Fathers, defined by general Counsels, etc. But this supposition is a begging of the question, for not so much as one ancient Father, or general Council, did ever declare or define the same, as it will plainly appear to all judicious Persons, which shall compare and apply the sentences of Fathers and ancient Counsels, to the Popish definition of Transubstantiation. And the said Doctrine is not grounded upon our Saviour's words: and the miracles which Romists venditate, to authorize the same, are either Friar's fables a 〈◊〉. Walsinghan. Hist. Anglor. in Rich. 2. pag. 281. In diebus istis in ore cuiuslibet bonum fuit argumentum tenens tam de forma quam de materia. Hic est frater ergo est mendax, sicut est illud. Hoc est album ergo est coloratum. Roiard. prefat. Hom. d. Fest. Sanct. Insertis passim fabulis, ac meris nugamentis, ipsam labefactarunt veritatem. , or reports misapplyed, and wrested to a contrary end. And that there should be merit, or at leastwise, less peril in adhering to this doctrine rather than to any other b Durand. 4 d. 11. q. 1. Temerarium est dicere, quod corpus Christi, divina virtute non possit esse in hoc Sacramento, nisi per 〈◊〉 panis in ipsum. Posset Deus facere quod corpus Christi esset de novo in Sacramento Altaris, absque mutatione sui, & absque mutatione alterius in ipsum, facta tamen aliqua mutatione circa panem vel aliquid aliud. , may be proclaimed over and over again by Romists c Aug. c. Faust. Man. li. 2. 〈◊〉. 49. Vbi hoc legerit nescio, nisi fort in cord suo, tanquam in libro nefariarum fallatiarum. , but it deserveth credit when they demonstrate, That an opinion which is not grounded upon divine Revelation, and which containeth so many difficulties, as cannot be solued, and the belief whereof is unnecessary, can be embraced with safety, and expectation of reward. To the words following in the jesuit (That he might also be continually with his Church secretly) it is answered, That excluding Transubstantiation, Christ jesus is continually with his Church secretly, by his grace, spirit, and mystical union; and he dwelleth in the hearts of justified persons by faith, Epkes. 3. v. 17. S. Chrysostome, S. Cyril, and S. Augustine, in the places objected, affirm, that we are not to believe our dull and carnal sense, when it suggesteth unto us that which is repugnant to faith; and when it acknowledgeth no other force and operation in the holy Sacraments, but that which is sensible and natural; But embracing this doctrine of the holy Fathers, we cannot from thence extract the fancy of Transubstantiation. Learned Papists themselves acknowledge the intricacies and difficulties of this Article a Aquin. 3. q. 75. ar. 2. ad 3. In hac conuersione sunt plura, difficiliora quam in creatione. Durand. 4. d. 11. q. 1. nu. 15. Scot 4. d. 11. q. 3. Vasq. 2 in 3. Tho. to 3. disp. 183. ca 1. n. 1. Audito nomine Transubstantiationis, tanta inter recentiores aliquos scholasticos, de natura illius exorta fuit controversia, ut quo magis se ab ea extricare conati sunt, eo maioribus difficultatibus seipsos implicarunt. , many of them affirm, that secluding the authority of the Romish Church, there is nothing in divine Revelation, compelling to believe it b Read before pag. 〈◊〉. . The doctrine is not Catholic or Ancient c Henriq. Sum. li. 8. c. 23. Scotus negat Dectrinam de conuersione & Transubstantiatione esle antiquam. Idem. Gabriel in Can. Miss. lect. 41. : The Propugners of it until the late Trident Council, disagree in that which is main and substantial d Bellarm. d. Euchar. li. 3. ca 1. Durandus docuit partem unam essentialem id est formam panis converti, partem alteram id est materiam non converti. ca 13. Sententia Durandi est haeretica etsi ipse non sit dicendus Haereticus, quia paratus fuerit iuditio Ecclesia acqui; escere. in it; and for avoiding one figure, they make many e Read. B B. Morton. Appeal. li. 2. ca 2. Sect. 24. n. 81. pa. 124. . Therefore it standeth not with Christian Wisdom, to embrace or maintain this doctrine, and Romists are more confident than prudent in imposing the same as an Article of the Creed, censuring the Noncredents as heinous Heretics. My final conclusion about this Article is: That doctrine, which is not expressly taught, or formally deduced from holy Soripture f Vasq. in 3. Th. to. 3. disp. 181. c. 1. n. 7. Cum ex sola veritate verborum, conver 〈◊〉 quae fit in hoc Sacramento colligenda sit; neque aliunde Ecclesia illam deducere potuerit (hoc enim unicum fuit Ecclesiasticae Traditionis fundamentum, etc.) : which no ancient Council or Church for the first 600 years, plainly taught; and unto which, many adverse passages are extant in the monuments of antiquity: also, which is repugnant to sense and common reason, and hath no apparent utility g 〈◊〉. d. Colonia. ex 〈◊〉. Deus potest corpus suam praesens cum pane facere, manente substantia panis, & non per aliquam mutationem quae sit ad 〈◊〉 ut per se terminum: & tamen per illam acquiritur presentia eiusdem rationis, cum illa quae nunc habetur. , ought not to be imposed as an article of divine faith. But such is the doctrine of Romish Transubstantiation: Therefore it ought not to be imposed as an article of divine faith, and the Roman Church should either cancel this part of their new Creed, or be less censorious in obtruding of it. THE SEVENTH POINT. COMMUNION UNDER ONE KIND, AND THE ABETTING OF IT BY concomitancy. Jesuit. YOur most Excellent Majesty, in the Proposition of this Controversy, shows your deep insight into Theological difficulties, perceiving a main ground whereon the Catholic opinion of the lawfulness of Communion under one kind standeth, to wit, concomitancy: which being granted, Communion under one kind, is justified. ANSWER. IF his Sacred MAJESTY should yield you concomitancy, yet upon that ground Communion in one kind could not be justified: Nevertheless, we deny both 〈◊〉 and Communion under one kind. Jesuit. Jesuit 1. The Doctrine of concomitancy proved. THe Doctrine of concomitancy is, that under the form of bread, not only the body of Christ, but also his precious blood and blessed soul, are truly and really contained; the body directly, and by virtue of the words of Consecration; the blood and the soul consequently: for being contained within the body of Christ, they must needs Concomitate, that is, follow the body, in what place soever the same be; neither can any that acknowledges the real Presence deny this concomitancy, without falling into many absurdities, as I prove by three Arguments. ANSWER. THe body of Christ is considered two ways: First, According to the nature of a perfect living body; secondly, As it is represented and exhibited in the Sacrament. If we consider it the first way, the blood of Christ cannot properly be said to be in his body, by concomitancy, (for then it were accidentally therein) but as a part in the whole; for as the bones, sinews, and veins, are integral parts of anaturall humane body, so likewise is the blood a Yrebarn. 4. d. 8. Disp. 28. Sect. 3. Corpus, etc. est substantia includens omnes parts, quae corpus organicum quoquo modo integrant, sive sint animabiles sive non, & hoc sensu sanguis ingreditur integritatem corporis. : and natural parts are in the whole, by substantial union, not by concomitancy; for than they were in the body, or belonging thereunto, as an adjunct to his subject. If we consider the body of Christ, taken for the more solid parts thereof, as it is represented and exhibited in the Sacrament, to wit, as it was fixed to the cross, and divided from the blood; then, according to this Sacramental representation and exhibition, the same alone neither containeth nor representeth the blood b Ruard. Tapper. ar. 15. Species panis solum significant corpus pro nobis in cruse oblatum, cum iam esset exangue, & species vini, sanguinem effusum, & quasi à corpore separatum. Yrebarn. in 4. d. 8. q. 1. Disp. 28. Sect. 3. Corpus stricte sumptum, signatum per se, à speciebus panis nihil sanguinis fignati includit. Tartaret. 4. d. 8. q. 1. Bassolis. 4. d. 8. q. 1. ar. 1. . The sacred Eucharist is one entire Sacrament a Faventin. 4. d. 8. Disp. 29. Non est unum unitate Indivisibilitatis, quia sunt plura signa, etc. tamen est unum unitate integritatis, quia ambae species integrant unum perfectum & totale sacramentum. , (totum compositum) having two external Elements, to wit, Bread and Wine, and these two signs or elements, represent the material Sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross b Greg. Dial. li. 4. cap. 58. Ambros. d. poenit. lib. 2. cap. 3. Chrys. tom. 1. in Psal. 22. Quotidie in similitudinem corporis & sanguinis Christi, panem & vinum secundum ordinem Melchisedech, nobis ostendit in Sacramento. Aug l. 83. q. 61. Ipse est sacerdos noster in aeternum, secundum ordinem Melchisedech, qui semetipsum obtulit, Holocaustum pro peccatis nostris, & eius sacrificij similitudinem celebrandam in suae passionis memoriam commendavit. Holocausti cius imaginem ad memoriam passionis suae in Ecclesia celebrandam 〈◊〉. Id. d. fid. ad Petrum. c. 19 In isto sacrificio, 〈◊〉 Actio atq, commemoratio est carnis Christi, quam 〈◊〉 obtulit, & quam pro nobis idem Deus effudit. Justin. Martyr. Colloq. cum Tryph. in hac Prophetia, & de pane quem nobis noster Christus tradidit, ad commemorationem corporis assumpti, propter credentes in eum, propter quos & passibilis natus est: & de poculo quod in memoriam sanguinis sui, cum gratiarum actione sumendum dedit, fit manifesta mentio. , which consisted, at the time of the Oblation thereof, of a body fixed on a tree, and the same dying by effusion of blood, Luk. 22.21. And in the holy Eucharist, Christ is as it were crucified before our eyes, and his body and blood, by representation, are divided: and God Almighty useth these mystical creatures, as instruments, to communicate unto every worthy Receiver, the Sacrifice of Christ his Son, 1. Cor. 10.16. But as the Sacrifice upon the Cross, was not performed in one of these Individuals apart, or by itself, but jointly in them both; and without effusion of blood, there is no remission of sins c Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11. Testamentum in sanguine constitutum est, quia 〈◊〉 Divinisanguis testis est. In cuius typum nos 〈◊〉 misticum sanguinis ad tuitionem corporis & animae nostrae percipimus, quia sanguis Domini, sanguinem nostrum redemit, id est totum hominem saluum fecit. Caro 〈◊〉 saivatoris prosalute corporis, sanguis 〈◊〉 anima nostra effusus est. , Heb. 9.22: So likewise in the holy Eucharist the body of Christ is represented, as it was divided from the blood; and again the blood, as severed from the body: and God concurreth with both the Elements, delivered and received; with the one, as it were by inception, and with the other by consummation: and Communicants partake not the whole Sacrifice of Christ, until they have received both the material parts of the Sacrament. Here then is no Popish concomitancy, either of the blood to the body, when it is received apart, or of the body to the blood, when that is received alone: but the Sacrament reacheth the body & blood, as they were divided, and they are then conjoined to make one Sacrifice, when they are both delivered and received. The whole cannot be in one part, neither doth one part Concomitate another, but is substantially united to another: and in a Sacrifice or Sacrament, compounded of divisible parts, he which giveth or receiveth one material part, doth not therein or thereby distribute or receive the whole. Neither again is the Deity united to the body or blood of Christ by concomitancy, but by personal union. Thus than I argue: Whatsoever is received in the Sacrament by us, was before offered to God upon the Crosse. But the body of Christ having blood in it by concomitance, or the deity in it by concomitancy, or the blood of Christ having in it the body or 〈◊〉, by concomitancy, was not offered to God upon the Cross: for before the effusion of the blood, the same was in the body as a part, not by concomitancy. After the full effusion, the blood was divided from the body, and the 〈◊〉 was with the body by personal union, and not by concomitancy, Ergo, At this day the body and deity of Christ are not in the blood of Christ by concomitancy, etc. Jesuit. First, he that acknowledgeth the real presence of Christ's sacred body under the form of bread, and denies concomitancy, doth in his belief separate the blood and soul of Christ from his body: but to separate either Christ's divinity from his humanity, or soul from his body, or his blood from his flesh, is unlawful; for such a believer doth dissolve and destroy Christ Jesus, and so is one of the number of them that S. john condemneth, Omnis 1. joh. 4.3. Spiritus qui soluit jesum, non est ex Deo, & hic est Antichristus. ANSWER. The sum of this objection is, Whosoever dissolveth Christ jesus, is an Antichrist. Every one who admitteth real presence, and yet denyeth concomitancy, dissolveth Christ jesus, for he separateth the blood and soul of Christ from his body, and his divinity from his humanity: Ergo, Whosoever in the real presence denyeth concomitancy, is an Antichrist. Our answer is, Whosoever dissolveth Christ jesus, according to S. john's meaning, 1. joh. 4.3. by denying his deity, humanity, or personal union a Aquin. in 1. joh. 4. Qui soluit, id est, dividit jesum, velseperans divinitatem ab eo, ut Arius, ut Appollinaris, qui 〈◊〉 divinitatem pro anima, vel carnem, ut Manicheus, qui ponit quod Christus assumpsit phantasiam, & non veram, vel 〈◊〉 unitatem, ut Nestorius, etc. B. justinian. Ib. ratione dissuere, aut dissoluere conatur, etc. , is Antichrist. But the denying of Popish concomitancy inferreth none of these. For although we affirm, that in the holy Eucharist the body and blood of Christ are represented distinctly, and as they were divided at his passion: yet this dissolveth not jesus, but signifieth the separation of his body and blood formerly made upon the Cross a Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11. Quia morte Domini liberati sumus, hui' rei memoriam in edendo & potando carnem & sanguinem, quae pro nobis oblata sunt, significamus nowm testamentum in hijs consecuti. . And we believe that the holy Ghost, according to the distinct signification b Vasq. in 3. Tho. tom. 3. disp. 215. cap. 2. nu. 13. Divinitas quae est 〈◊〉 causa, ità assumpsit ut 〈◊〉, ad producendam gratiam, 〈◊〉 Sacramenta, ut suam efficacitatem significationi eorum accommodaret, sicut revera accommodare potuit. of the sacramental elements, reacheth in a spiritual manner, the body and blood of Christ crucified, to all faithful communicants, and addeth a several effect and virtue of spiritual refection to each distinct part received c Ibid. nu. 9 Vnaquaequè species huius Sacramenti, quatenus Sacramenti pars est, suam habet signisicationem diversam. Cumquè significationem in Sacramentis novae legis, consequatur efficacia, quià id 〈◊〉 quod significant, sequitur vnamquamquè speciem in hoc Sacramento, suum effectum per se operari, sicut etiàm suum refectionis modum per se significat. Ruard. Tapper. ar. 15. Quià per diversa hic operatur instrumenta variè significantia, 〈◊〉, videlicet, & corpus suum, quae sunt causae immediatae effectus Sacramentalis, ipse etiàm diversos operatur effectus, donaquè sua dividit, idem ipse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. according to the signification; and this is confessed by Vasques, Ruard Tapper, Alexander Halles. Jesuit. And this argument hath greatest force in their opinion, who shall think that Christ leaves heaven for the time, to come down really according to his Body and Blood: for how can the bodic of Christ come down from heaven without blood and soul, unless he come down dead? and so Christ should be not only mystically and figuratively, but truly and really massacred in the Sacrament, and the Eucharist be a bloody Sacrifice, and not incruent as the Father's term it. ANSWER. None of our part think that Christ leaveth heaven, to come down really according to his body and blood, Act. 3.21. Donec seculum finiatur, 〈◊〉 est Dominus (Augustine in joh. tract. 7.) until the world be finished, the Lord continues above. And the Father's term the holy Eucharist, an unbloody sacrifice, not because Christ is properly, and in his substance offered therein, but because his bloody sacrifice upon the cross, is, by this unbloody commemoration represented, called to remembrance, and applied. Read the sentences of Fathers a Cyprian. Ep. 63. Quotiescunquè ergo Calicem in commemorationem Domini, & passionis eius offerrimus. Aug. c. Faust. lib. 20. cap. 18. Christiani peracti huius sacrificij memoriam celebrant, sacrosancta oblatione, & participatione corporis & sanguinis Domini, Ep. 23. ad Bonifac. Nonnè semel immolatus est Christus in semetipso? & tamen in Sacramento non tantum per omnes Paschae solennitates, sed etiàm omni die, populis immolatur, nec vtiquè mentitur, qui interrogatus, eum responderet immolari: si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem earum rerum quarum Sacramentasunt, non haberent omnino Sacramenta non essent. contr. Faust. lib. 20. cap. 21. Huius sacrificij caro & sanguis, antè adventum Christi per victimas similitudinum promittebatur, in passione Christi per ipsam veritatem reddebatur, post ascensum Christi per Sacramentum memoriae celebratur. Quest. 83. cap. 61. Christus qui semetipsum obtulit holocaustum pro peccatis nostris, huius sacrificij similitudinem, & holocausti eius imaginem in passionis suae memoriam celebrandam dedit, & commendavit. In lib. Sent. prosper. Sicut coelestis panis, qui verè Christi caro est, suo modo vocatur corpus Christi, cum revera sit Sacramentum corporis Christi, illius videlicet, quod visibile, palpabile, mortale, in cruse suspensum est, vocaturquè ipsa immolatio carnis quae Sacerdotis manibus fit, Christi passio, mors, crucifixio, non rei veritate sed significante mysterio. Chrys. in Heb. 10. Hom. Quid ergo nos, nonnè per singulos dies offerrimus, etc. offerrimus quidem sed recordationem facientes mortis eius, etc. Hoc quod facimus in commemorationem fit eius quod factum est. Hocenim facite inquit in mei commemorationem. Non aliud Sacrificium sicut Pontifex sed id ipsum semper facimus, magis autem recordationem Sacrificij operamur. Theodoret. in cap. 8. Hebr. Cur novi Testamenci Sacerdotes my sticam Liturgiam seu Sacrificium peragunt, Cum Christus qui est Sacerdos secundum ordinem Melchisedech, offerens Sacrificium, efficit ut alia Sacrificia non essent necessaria? Resp. clarum est iis qui sunt eruditi in rebus divinis, nos non aliud offer, sed illius unius & salutaris memoriam peragere. Hocenim nobis praecipit ipse Dominus, hoc facite in meam recordationem: ut per figurarum contemplationem, earum quae pro nobis susceptae sunt perpessionum recordaremur, & in benefactorem benevolentiam conseruemus, & futurorum beneficiorum perceptionem expectemus. Theophilact. in Heb. 10. Ipsum quidem semper offerrimus, imo vero potius memoriam illius oblationis facimus, qua seipse obtulit. placed in the margin. Read also Peter Lombard b Lombard. Sent. lib. 4. Dist. 12. Quaeritur si quod gerit Sacerdos propriè dicatur Sacrificium, vel immolatio, & si Christus quotidiè immoletur, vel semel tantum imniolatus sit? ad hoc brevitèr dici potest, Illud quod offertur & consecratur à Sacerdote, vocari Sacrificium & oblationem, quià memoria est, & representatio veri Sacrificij, & sanctae immolationis factae in ara crucis. Idem. Semel Christus mortuus est in cruse, ibiquè immolatus est in semetipso. Quotidiè autem immolaturin Sacramento, quià in Sacramento recordatio fit illius, quod factum est semel. , and the Enchiridion of Colen c Enchir. colonians. d. Euchar. Patres non dubitarunt hoc Christi corpus in altari, Sacrificium & salutarem victimam appellare, non ratione Sacrificij, quod est situm in actione Sacerdotis, etc. sed ratione Sacrificij quod in cruse oblatum est semel. . Jesuit. Secondly, The Priest in the person of Christ, who is glorious in heaven, or rather Christ being glorious in heaven, by the mouth of the Priest, saith, This is my body: but a body devoid of blood without soul, and consequently dead and senseless, is not the body of Christ, as he is now glorious in heaven, which hath blood in the veins, and is informed and glorified by a most excellent soul. Therefore Christ glorious in heaven, cannot say truly, that a body void of blood, sense, and soul is his body; but soul, life, and blood, must needs follow and concomitate his body wheresoever it be. ANSWER. First, The new Testament acknowledgeth no proper sacrificing Priests, but Christ jesus only, Heb. 7.23.27.28. & ca 10. 21. Neither is there any word or sentence in our Saviour's Doctrine, concerning any real sacrifice, but only of himself upon the Cross: neither was any altar a Lesseus, d. just. & iure li. 2. c. 38. n. 11. Quinquè ad perfectum & propriè dictum sacrificium requiruntur. 1. Ex parte ministri ut sit Sacerdos. 2 Ex parte materiae res aliqua sensibilis externa, etc. 3. Ex parte formae, illius rei peremptio, vel aliqua alia conveniens mutatio, hoc enim potissimum differt sacrificium ab oblationibus. 4. Ex parte finis ut 〈◊〉 ad honorem Dei. 5. Ex parte loci, Altar, etc. used and ordained by Christ and his Apostles. And if in all real sacrifices, the matter of the oblation must be really destroyed and changed, and no physical destruction or change is made in the body of Christ, or in the elements of Bread and Wine by Transubstantiation b Soto. d. just. & iur. lib. 9 q. 2. ar. 1. Hac negata veritate Catholica, palàm 〈◊〉 consequens, mysterium altaris non esse sacrificium. ; then Romists have devised a real sacrifice in the new Testament, which hath no divine Institution. Secondly, There is no created virtue inhaerent in the Sacramental words c Nugnus. in 3. Tho. q. 78. ar. 4. In verbis nihil producitur supernaturale, nisi sola elevatio & motio divina. , as they are pronounced by a Priest, to make the body of Christ locally present in the holy Eucharist: but when all the words, and all the actions are lawfully performed, which Christ commanded, the holy Ghost is assistant to his own ordinance, and delivereth unto faithful people the crucified Body of Christ, and the Blood of Christ shed for our sins upon the cross. And although the crucified body of our Saviour was severed from the soul, yet the deity even then remained united to that body, which then was not dead in regard of merit and satisfaction: and all they which receive that body by operative faith, are made partakers of the merit and satisfaction thereof, and by this receiving, are more and more ingraffed into Christ. Jesuit. Thirdly, If under the form of bread were only the body of Christ, and his soul and blood were not by concomitancy there, the communicants should receive the body of Christ, but not truly Christ, as our Adversary's grant. Calvin. li. 4. 〈◊〉. ca 7. nu. 35. Ibid. nu. 74. Calvin specially saying, Quis sanus & sobrius Christi corpus Christum esse sibi persuadeat? And again, Ne fando quidem auditum est corpus Christi, aut sanguinem Deum & hominem appellari. But Fathers affirm most constantly, that not only the body of Christ, but also a Ambr. l. 〈◊〉 qui init. In illo Sacramento Christus est. Hilar. l. 8. d. Trinit. Nos vere verbum carnem cibo Dominico sumimus. Cyrill. Alexand. l. 4. in joh. c. 15. Per hanc benedictionem Mysterij ipsum filium Dei suscipimus. Cyrill. Hierosol. Catech. Myst. 5. Chrys. Hom. 83. in cap. 26. Math. & Hom. 24. in 1. ad Cor. Christ himself is in the Sacrament; that we take in the Dominical refection, The word made flesh; that by the consecration of the Mysteries, we receive the very Son of God; that under the form of Bread, we lodge within us the Sovereign King; and that we see Christ, feel Christ, eat Christ, Non regium puerum, sed ipsum unigenitum Dei filium. An hundred other places might be brought, where the Fathers call the consecrated Bread Christ; and consequently, they did not think there was the mere Body, without Blood and Soul, seeing, as Calvin doth confess, It is an absurd manner of speech, to term Christ the mere body of Christ; and such a form of speech was never heard of hitherto in the world: Ergo, concomitancy, that is, Christ's real and entire Body, Soul, Flesh, Blood, to be under the form of Bread, was acknowledged by the Fathers. ANSWER. It is granted, that worthy Communicants in the holy Eucharist, receive Christ, joh. 6. 33, 35, 48. but Sacramental eating his flesh, and drinking his blood, is the means, by which they are united and incorporated with Christ himself: therefore the Objection, to wit, if the soul and blood were not in Christ's body by concomitancy, Communicants should receive the body of Christ, but not truly Christ, is inconsequent: because by receiving the one, they receive the other, and the former is the instrumental cause of the latter. So in this kind of spiritual concomitancy, neither the Fathers, nor Calvin, nor we, nor you, need be at any difference. Jesuit. This Principle, which is no less certain than the true real Presence supposed, I infer the lawfulness of Communion under one kind, (to wit, under the sole form of Bread) by this Argument: If Communion under one kind be not against the substance, either of Christ's Institution or of his Sacrament, or his Precept, or of the Practice of the Primitive Church; it is lawful, justifiable, and for just Reasons may be commanded by the Church. This Proposition is true, because there neither are other causes of dislike, that may not be reduced to these four; neither do Christ's Institution, or Sacrament, or Precept, or the Primitive practice, bind us to keep them further, than in substance, the accidental Circumstances of Institutions, Sacraments, Precepts, Primitive Customs, being variable, according to the variable disposition of things, unto which the Church Militant in this life is subject. Now I assume, concomitancy being supposed, it may be made evident, that Communion under one kind is not against the substance, either of Christ's Institution, or of the Sacrament, or of his Precept, or of his Primitive practice: For the substance of these four Obligations is one and the same, to wit, that we be truly and really partakers of the Body and Blood of our Saviour; which is fully done by Communion under one kind, as I will show in the four consequent Sections. ANSWER. If concomitancy (which is styled in this place by the name of a Principle) were granted, yet Communion in one kind is not justifiable: For although it deprive not people of Christ's Blood, as it is a bodily part, a Arist. d. part. Animal. lib. 2. cap. 2. Partium simularium aliae molles & humidae, etc. sanguis, sanies, adeps. contained in the veins, yet it depriveth them of the Blood of Christ, as it was shed, and poured out, and offered in Sacrifice for them. To the main Argument I answer, denying the Assumption. For Communion in one kind is repugnant to the first Institution of the Eucharist by Christ, who hallowed two material Elements, Bread and Wine; appointed them a distinct signification, delivered them indifferently to all the Communicants, and annexed a Promise to the reception of the one, as well as to the sumption of the other. Secondly, It is repugnant to the express Precept of Christ, saying, Drink ye all of this; and to S. Paul's Precept b Cyprian. d. Coen. 〈◊〉. Lex esum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut 〈◊〉. , 1. Cor. 11. 28. Thirdly, The practice of the holy Apostles a 1. Cor. 10.21. cap. 11.23.26. , and of the Primitive Church b 〈◊〉. Hierarch. cap. 3. 〈◊〉 Calicem omnibus impartiens. justin. Martyr. A polog. 2. Distribuunt unicuique praesentium ut participet eum in quo gratiae actae sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 panem vinum & aquam. 〈◊〉 Epist. ad Philadelph, unus panis omnibus confractus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & unum poculum omnibus distributum. Tertul. d. Cor. mil. cap. 3. 〈◊〉. Epist. 54. & 56. & 63. in Calais Dominico sanctificando & populo ministrando, etc. Aug. in 〈◊〉 57— à cuius Sacrisicij sa nguine in alimentum sumendo, non solum nemo prohibetur sed ad bibendum omnes exhortantur qui volunt habere vitam. 〈◊〉. 1. Cor. hom. 11. & sup. 2. Cor. hom. 18. 〈◊〉 sup. soph. cap. 3. Sacerdotes qui Eucharistiae seruiunt, & sanguinem Domini populis dividunt. Hist. Trip. lib. 9 cap. 30. 〈◊〉. d. Octau. Pasch. Quid sit sanguis agni noniam audiendo sed bibendo didicistis. , is against it. Fourthly, The people which receive in one kind, receive only a Moiety, and piece, but not the whole and entire Sacrament Jesuit. Jesuit 2. Communion under one kind, not against the substance of the Institution of Christ. Divine Institution, is an Action of God, whereby he gives being unto things, with reference unto some special end. This end is twofold, the one corporal and temporal, for which God hath instituted agreeable & 〈◊〉 means; that men may be borne into this world, he did institute marriage; and for maintenance of the said life, being had, he or dained many sorts of meat. The other end is spiritual, for which God hath instituted Sacraments: as for the first obtaining of grace and spiritual life, the Sacrament of Baptism and Penance; and for the preserving of grace, and increasing therein, particularly the Sacrament of the Eucharist. That a man be bound to use the Jnstitution of God, two things are required: First, that the end thereof be necessary, and he bound to endeavour the attaining thereof. Hence it is, that though marriage be the Jnstitution of God, appointed to propagate mankind, yet every man is not bound to marry, because he is not bound to propagate mankind, when there be others that do abundantly complic with that duty; to which mankind is in general bound, multiplicamini Gen. 1. 28. & replete terram. Secondly, when the end of tion is such, as every man must endeavour the attaining thereof; to the end that a man be bound to use that institution, it is further required, that the thing instituted be necessary for attaining of that end: for if there be other means ordained, sufficient for the attaining of that end, man is not bound to use such particular divine institutions. For example, man is bound to maintain his corporal life, so long as nature will permit, and to this end God created variety of fruits; yet no man is bound by divine institution to eat fruits, there being other means instituted for the maintenance of life. Applying this to our purpose, it is apparent, that by force of divine institution, no man is bound to use Communion under both kinds. For though the end why Christ did institute the Sacrament in both kinds be necessary, and all must endeavour the attaining thereof, to wit, maintenance and increase of grace, the life of the soul; yet there be other means by which we may attain to this end. Whence it is that learned Divines hold, that the Sacrament of the Eucharist Theologi omnes communiter cum D. Tho. 3. p. quaest. 3. art. 3. is not Necessarium necessitate Medij, as they speak, that is the use thereof is not a necessary means for the maintenance of spiritual life, but a man wanting means of Sacred Communion, may by other means preserve himself in the state of grace. And though we should suppose that actual Communion were a necessary means to preserve spiritual life, yet Communion under one kind is abundantly sufficient thereunto. For the Sacrament in the sole form of Bread, containing the Author and fountain of life whole and entire, according to Body, Soul, Blood, and his infinite person, is abundantly sufficient for the refection of the soul, yea no less sufficient than Communion under both kinds. For this one kind 〈◊〉 within it nothing less, than what is contained in both: and Christ promiseth life to sole manducation, Qui manducat me & ipse vivit propter me, and unto the sole reception of his Body under the form of Bread, Panis quem ego joh. 6. v. 58. 〈◊〉 v. 55. & 59 dabo caro mea est pro mundi vita & qui manducat hunc panem vivet in aeternum: If the Tree of life in the Gen. 2.9. midst of Paradise, if the Manna of the Jews (the Bread of Angels) did suffice to nourish the body without Drink, Exod. 16.15. Why should we deny this soule-nourishing sufficiency unto the sole body of Christ, were the same alone in the Bread: but specially being there conjoined with his soul and his most precious blood? ANSWER. FIrst, the ground of the objection laid by the jesuit in certain comparisons, taken from Marriage, Meatand Drink, is of no consequence: for as touching Wedlock, the same (presupposing humane Propagation) is necessary, both Necessitate Medij, and Necessitate praecepti, that the generation of man may be morally lawful, Heb. 13.4. so likewise presupposing, that Christians do receive the holy Eucharist, it is necessary Necessitate finis, or Medij, & necessitate praecepti, That they receive the same, as the Author appointed it to be received; which was not in one kind, but in both. And as touching Food, it is necessary, that man receive it in some kind or other, for the sustenance of his life: but because God hath left it to the liberty of man's Election to use which kind he liketh, and hath not by law, or precept, obliged him to any one kind in special, thereforeman is free in choosing his material Food, and obtaineth the end of Food, and observeth the law of his Maker, when he orderly useth any kind thercof. But in the matter of the holy Eucharist, as God hath not made it adiaphorous for man to change the Elements, substituting Water and Broth, or Flesh in the stead of Bread and Wine: so likewise he hath not permitted it to humane discretion, to omit or use the Sacramental signs, but hath by express precept, obliged his Church to theuse of one sign, as well as the other. But I wonder that the jesuit in this discursive preamble, would use an instance from our natural food, than which nothing by wayof inference doth more expressly refute him. Can he in the Sacrament make mention of Food, and not consider that our Saviour's intent in the institution was, to proportion our Spiritual food to our Corporall? In our bodily nourishment, have we not need of drink as well as meat? Did not our Saviour therefore add the Cup to the Bread, and equally blessed both? How dare they then make the repast of our souls, a dry banquet? And although God never bound any man to eat all kind of meat, yet he never forbade any man all kind of drink. Secondly, If the matter or material part of compounded things belongs to their substance a Aquin. p. 1. q. 75 ar. 4. Scheibler. Metaphys. l. 1. c. 6. p. 2. in habentibus materiam, materia est pars essentiae. Suar. Metaph. disp. 36. sect. 2. Pererius lib. 6. nat. Phil. cap. 6. 7. 8. jandun. Metaph. 7. q. 12. , than the defalcation of one kind is against the integrity of the substance of the Eucharist. For the Element of Wine, unto which answereth the distribution and reception thereof, is a medietie or half part of the matter of the holy Communion; and if the taking away thereof, is not against the substance of Christ's Institution, than likewise the taking away of Bread, which is the other part, and the retaining of Wine only, is not against the same: for the blood of Christ is as noble a part of Christ, and hath as great virtue, necessity, and commendation in holy Scripture, as his body strictly taken; and consequently, the outward sign hereof, is as necessary for all the members of the Church, as the external sign of his body. But against this, the jesuit argueth as followeth. If Lay people may attain the end for which Christ ordained the Eucharist, without receiving in both kinds, than Communion under one kind is not against the substance of Christ's Institution. But Lay people may attain the end, etc. to wit, maintenance, and increase of grace, by Communion in one kind, because one kind containeth in it nothing less than what is contained in both, joh. 6. v. 55, 58, 59 Ergo, Communion under one kind is not against the substance of Christ's Institution. ANSWER. The sequel and assumption of this Argument are denied. First, Communion under one kind, may be of the substance of Christ's Institution, although the end and fruit of the holy Eucharist might be received by other means: for as in the Sacrament of Baptism, the end is regeneration and remission of sins a Aug. Ep. 90. & Epist. 157. Greg. Nyssen. Orat. d. Bapt. Chrysoft. in Gen. Hom. 40. Ambros. Apol. David. cap. 13. , Acts 22. 16. Tit. 3. 5. and this end, in some case, may be obtained without aspersion of water, as appear in Baptismo sanguinis b August. d. Civit. Dei. lib. 13. cap. 7. Quicunque non recepto regenerationis lavacro, pro Christi consessione moriuntur tantum eis valet ad dimittenda peccata quantum si ablucrentur, sacro fonte Baptismatis. Lembard 4 d. 4. D. Aquin. 3. q. 68 ar. 2. & q. 87. ar. 1. Bellarm. d. Bap. lib. 1. cap. 6. Greg. Val. Suares, Nugnus, Henriques, lib 2. cap. 34. Petigian. in. 4. d. 4. q. 3. ar. 1. 〈◊〉. d Sacrament. d. Bapt. Disp. 2. punct. 2. Yrebarn. Cabrer. Faventin. & aiij. , when Martyrs decease, without Sacramental Baptism: and yet to be washed or sprinkled with water, is of the substance of Christ's Institution; so likewise Communion in both kinds, is of the substance of Christ's Institution, although the end and fruit of the holy Eucharist, to wit, continuance and increase of grace, may be obtained by spiritual manducation alone, without Sacramental. If the former illation of Romists were good, it will follow likewise from thence, that receiving of Bread in the Eucharist, is not of the substance of Christ's Institution: for whole and entire Christ, according to body, and soul, and infinite person, is in the blood alone, if the Popish Doctrine of concomitancy be true: and if this be granted (as of necessity it must) than Romists may mangle and transform the holy Sacrament at their pleasure. Secondly, The end and fruit of the Sacrament is either common to the holy Eucharist, with other means of Grace a Aug. Epist. ad Bonifac. citatur à 〈◊〉 in 3. p. Tho. d. Euchar. q. 27. ar. 5. pa. 371. Nulliest aliquatenus ambigendum, tunc unumquenque fidelium corporis sanguinisque Domini participem fieri, quando in Baptismate membrum Christi corporis efficitur, nec alienari ab illius panis calicisque consortio, etiamsi antequam panem illum comedat, & calicem bibat, de hoc saeculo, in unitate corporis Christi constitutus abscedat. , or else proper to it only. To eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God, by recognition of Christ's Passion, and by Faith in the same, may be an effect of the Gospel preached, joh. 6. 54. But to eat the same flesh and blood, communicated more distinctly and effectually by visible seals, of the covenant of the new Testament, is an end and fruit peculiar and proper to the holy Eucharist, 1. Cor. 10. 16. A man may have the same inheritance bestowed on him, by the word and writing of the Donor, yet when the same is confirmed by the seal of the Donor, the donation is of greater validity; and if by Law or custom, two seals should be appointed, the apposition of one is not of equal force and validity to the apposition of both: so likewise, because the Son of God made choice of two outward signs, namely, Bread and Wine, to represent and apply his Passion and Oblation, and withal commanded the common use and reception of both, saying, Drink ye all of this: and also annexed a special promise and blessing to both these outward signs, jointly used: therefore the use & sumption of one of these without the other, cannot have so great force b Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. m. 4. ar. 1. §. 1. In quantum efficacia respicit signatum, & non contentum utraque (species) est de integritate: quia sumpto hoc Sacramento digne, in utraque specie, 〈◊〉 est effectus, unionis corporis mystici cum capite quam sumptio sub altera. , to apply the effect & fruit of the Sacrament, as the use & reception of both. And as in concauses, or partial causes, the action of the one, cannot produce the effect without the other; and as when two keys are provided to open a lock, the same is not opened by one of them only: so likewise Christ jesus, having instituted and sanctified two signs, for the more proportionable and effectual application of his Body, and Blood, it is gross presumption in man to mutilate and cut off a part of that body which the wisdom of Christ hath framed in due and beautiful proportion, and to divide that which God hath joined together, and without warrant from Gods revealed word, to attribute a total effect, to a partial means and cause. Jesuit. Hence it is apparent, that without any just cause, some Protestants inveigh against the Council of Constance, as Concil. Constant. sess. 13. professing to contradict the Precept of Christ, because it decreed, That the Sacrament may be lawfully given under one kind, Non obstante quod Christus in utraque specie illud instituerit, & Apostolis administraverit: Notwithstanding Christ's Institution and Administration thereof in both kinds, to his Disciples. This their bitterness proceeds from zeal without knowledge, not distinguishing the Jnstitution of God from his Precept, which are very distinct: for the Precept of both kinds (if Christ gave any) doth bind, whether both kinds be necessary for the maintenance of man's soul in grace, or no; but the Jnstitution in both kinds, doth not bind further than the thing instituted, to wit, Communion under both kinds is necessary for the maintaining of spiritual life, for which, one kind being sufficient, as I have showed, Christ's Institution of both kinds, doth not enforce the use of both. If God should have commanded the use both of meat and drink, every man should be bound, not only to eat, but also to drink, though he had no necessity thereof; but now seeing God hath not given such a Precept, a man that can live by meat without ever drinking, is not bound to drink, non obstante, that God did institute both eating and drinking for the preservation of life in every man. ANSWER. The Council of Constance is justly censured, for presuming to alter and disannul the ordinance of Christ a Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11. Indignun dicit esse Domino, qui alitèr mysterium celebrat, quam ab eo traditum est. Non enim potest devotus esse, qui alitèr praesumit, quam datum est ab Authore. ; for if it be flagitious amongst men to alter and contradict the lawful Will of a Testator, Galat. 3.15. shall it not be much more unlawfall to alter the Testament of the Son of God, who disposed to the common people his Blood, as well as his Body, saying, Drink ye all of this, Math. 26, 27. and except ye eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the man, etc. joh. 6.53. And the words of the said Synod are most presumptuous, Concil. Constant. Can. 13. pag. 349. col. 2. Licet Christus post coenam instituerit, & suis Discipulis administraverit sub utraque specie panis & vini hoc venerabile Sacramentum: tamen hoc non obstante, etc. Licet in Primitiva Ecclesia huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur, à fidelibus sub utraque specie, tamen haec consuetudo, etc. Dicere quod hanc consuetudinem & legen obseruare sit sacrilegum, aut illicitum censeri debet, erroneum, & pertinacitèr asserentes opositum praemissorum, tanquam Haeretici arcendi sunt, & gravitèr puniendi, etc. for this they pronounce, Although Christ, after supper, instituted and administered to his Disciples under both kinds, etc. And although in the Primitive Church, this Sacrament was received of Believers in both kinds, yet notwithstanding, the contrary custom for Laics to receive in one kind, is with good reason brought in, and they are Heretics which hold this, sacrilegious or unlawful. But what are these men in comparison of Christ and his Apostles, and of the Fathers of the Primitive Church? If men may thus twit Christ and his Apostles, what shall become of all religion? The sole and total rule to guide the Church in the matter of the holy Eucharist, is Christ's Institution and practice, recorded by the Evangelists, and testified by the Apostles, and the Primitive Church in their doctrine and practice followed this rule (as some of our learned Adversaries ingeniously confess a Cassand. Consult. 22. In Ecclesia Latina, mille amplius annis tenuit, ut tam populo quam clero, in celebratione missarum post mysteriorum consecrationem seorsum corpus & seorsum sanguis Domini preberetur. Gerard. Lorich. d. public. miss. prorog. Ruard Tapper, are 15. pag 218. Aquinas. Com. joh. 6. Secundum antiquam Ecclesiae consuetudinem, omnes sicut communicabant corpori, ità communicabant & sanguini: quod etiàm adhuc in quibusdam Ecclesijs seruatur Arboreus. Com. in joh. 6. Nec addubito, quin in Primitiva Ecclesia communicarent omnes tum Laici tum Sacerdotes sub vtraquè specie. .) If therefore Christ jesus and his Apostles, and after these, the Primitive Church administered the Communion to lay people in both kinds (as this Synod confesseth;) and on the contraie, nothing is extant in holy Writ, or in the monuments of the Fathers, to testify that Christ and his Apostles retracted or altered this first practice: What audacious sacrilege was it in the Prelates of Constance, upon their own private and childish b Gerson d. come. sub utraquè. Denar. 2. Primum, periculum in effusione. Secundum, in deportatione de loco ad locum. Tertium, in vasorum sordidatione, etc. Quartum, in longis barbis laicorum. Itèm, quod tanta esset dignitas laicorum circà sumptionem corporis Christi, sicut & Sacerdotum. to. 1. pag. 528. vid. plura. reasons, to cancel Christ's last Will and Testament, and to violate the sacred precept and ordinance of the Son of God? But our Adversary laboureth by a distinction of Institution and Precept, to plaster the ulcerous Doctrine of the 〈◊〉 of Constance, saying, or implying, That although Christ did institute the holy Eucharist in two kinds, yet he gave no precept for the use of it in two kinds. But this plaster of sig-leaves healeth not the wound, for there is both an institution and a precept for both kinds, and more expressly for the cup than for the bread: for Christ said expressly and literally, Drink ye all of this, whereas he said not so literally and expressly, eat ye all of this. Besides, his institution is a virtual and interpretative precept, as appeareth by S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.23. And Christ did institute the Eucharist in two kinds, that people might receive and ufe it in two kinds. Also, if the manner of the institution proveth not the manner of the use, than the Eucharist may be used in another manner (I mean in things substantial) than as it was instituted: and if this, than it may be used in wine only without bread, or in broth, or in flesh, for we have no direction or rule for the manner, of greater authority than the institution. Lastly, divine institution doth not only signify an action of God, whereby he giveth being unto things, with reference to their end, (in which manner the jesuit sinisterly defineth it a Accursius. praef. sup. Instit. Instinian. Institutiones sunt praeceptiones quibus instituuntur, & docentur homines, etc. ) but it signifieth also a decree, rule, precept, and information, concerning the use and practise of that which God hath ordained. Now our Saviour, when he ordained the holy Eucharist, in regard of the being and entity thereof, he withal conjoined the use of the same as a necessary condition, to make it operative and effectual to his people. For even as in Baptism, although the Word and Element constitute the Sacrament, in regard of the definition b Aug sup. joh. tr. 80. Accedit verbum ad elementum, & fit sacramentum. , yet the same is no Baptism c Aquinas. 3. q. 66. ar. 1. Sacramentum no 〈◊〉 in ipsa a qua, sed in applicatione a quae ad hominem, quae est ablutio. to us, until the Word & Water be applied to the subject by ablution: so likewise in the holy Eucharist, the words and elements make the definition, but the use and application, according to the manner taught by Christ, gives it a Sacramental virtue and operation in respect of us d Inchoatiuè vel inceptiuè Sacramentum antè usum. Consummatiuè & perfectiuè non est Sacramentum antè usum. . Jesuit. Jesuit 3. Communion under one kind, not against the substance of the Sacrament. A Sacrament of the new Testament, being a visible efficatious sign of invisible grace, four things are necessary to concur to the substantial constitution thereof, which I will set down in order, and together show that they are all found in the Eucharist given under one kind. First, there is required some element, that is a visible and sensible thing or action, without which, no Sacrament can subsist, termed by Divines Materia Sacramenti. This substantial part is not wanting in the Sacrament given in one kind, in which kind there is consecrated bread, visible and sensible in the accidents thereof, and manducation also, an action visible and appar an't to sense. ANSWER. THis quadripartite argument (at least in the three foremost branches) is merely sophistical, & indeed against common sense: as if one should question, whether a man without legs or arms were a perfect entire man, according to the first creation of mankind, & the perpetual succeeding law of nature, not erring? The jesuit should answer thus: This is a sufficient and perfect man, for the other members which he hath, as head, breast, back, etc. are not of the substance of humane nature. In my reply, I need add no more, but smile. And yet to answer his particulars: First in every Sacrament there is required not only a sensible action, but also a visible and material sign a Aug. ad Maximin. lib. 3. cap. 22. Lombar. 4. d. 1. Sacramentum est invisibilis gratiae visibilis forma. Hugo. lit. F. , and therefore (to speak by the way) some of the seven which Romists number in their List or Calendar, are no Sacraments. But in the holy Eucharist there is a double visible element, and material visible sign b Idem. dist. 4. lit. F. Iren. lib. 4. ca 32. Tertull. d. Resur. carn. ca 8. justin. Mart. colloq. cum Tryph: & Apol. 2. Aug. in psal. 3. Cypr. Ep 63. , to wit, Bread and Wine, Math. 26.26, 27. Luc. 22. 19, 20. 1. Cor. 11.23.25. and these outward elements being two in number, and divided the one from the other, were distinctly and severally distributed by our Saviour, and were received by the communicants apart, the one of them after the other: and although they make but one Sacrament in regard of the definition, as similarie and dissimilarie parts make but one body, yet there is a diversity and plurality both in their matter and form c Bonacin. d. Sacra. d. Euchar. disp. 4. p. 4. propos. 1. In Sacramento Eucharistiae est diversitas & pluralitas materiae & formae, cum alia sit materia & forma corporis Christi, & alia 〈◊〉 materia & forma sanguinis. Alex. Hall. 4. q. 10. m. 3. ar. 2. , and a reason why they must be two, and not one individual sign. Jesuit. The second thing required to the substance of the Sacrament, is, Verbum, the Word; that is, a form of speech, showing the divine and supernatural purpose, unto which the element is consecrated. Neither is that part wanting in the Sacrament given under one kind, which is consecrated by the words of Christ, This is my body: and the Theological Principle taken out of S. Augustine verified, Aug. Tract. 18. in joan. Accedit verbum ad elementum & fit Sacramentum. ANSWER. As the outward elements are two in number, so likewise a double act of blessing and consecration must pass upon them a Palud. 4. d. 9 q. 1. ar. 1. Caiet. 3. q. 80 ar. 12. Suares. to. 3. disp. 43. sect. 3. Reginald. d. poen. li. 29. nu. 13. Chamerot. d. Euchar. cap. 6. Dub. 1. Nugnus. in 3. q. 74. ar. 1. Conclus. 2. ; for otherwise, that part which wanteth benediction, is not a sacramental sign, but a common creature: and if any sign be omitted, than the Sacrament wanteth integrity of parts. Jesuit. The third thing is signification, every Sacrament signifying some divine effect of grace, which God worketh by the application thereof; and the sensible sign, even by nature hath as S. Augustine noteth, some proportion and Aug. Epist. 23. ad Bonifac. analagie to signify that divine effect, which to produce it is assumed by God's omnipotency as an Instrument. This Aug. Epist. 23. sacred signification which the holy Eucharist hath, is of three kinds, and all three are found in the Sacrament given under one kind. First, this Sacrament is a sign of spiritual food, for the nourishment and refection of the soul, which signification is manifestly found in Communion under one kind, for the Eucharist doth signify this effect of spiritual nutrition, because it is a sign of Christ the Bread of Life, the food of Angels, the fountain of grace: but by the sole form of bread, Christ is signified as present according to his most sacred body, and consequently as most sufficient to feed and refresh the Soul. Another signification of this Sacrament, is union and conjunction between the Faithful, as being members of the same Body whereof Christ is Head, and fellow members one with another, as S. Paul declares: which conjunction, the Sacrament in Rom. 12. 4. & 5. 1. Cor. 12. 12. the form of Bread, doth signify. For Bread being a compound of many grains of Wheat, massed together in one Loaf, and also made of Flower and Water mingled one with another, signifies the perfect union, both of the Church with Christ, and of the Faithful that are in the Church one with another; as S. Paul testifies, Vnum corpus 1. Cor. 10. v. 17. sumus quotquot de uno Pane participamus; where he makes no mention of Wine, the Sacrament in the form of Bread being alone able to show and work this signification. This Sacrament doth also signify the Passion and Death of our Saviour, which Death and Passion is showed and represented by Communion under one kind. For receiving the Sacrament in the form of Wine only, we have a sufficient ground to remember the Blood of Christ, that was in his Passion shed and separated from his Body. Likewise, by participating of the consecrated Bread, we may lively conceive the Body of Christ, as it was deprived of the most precious Blood, by the effusion thereof on the Cross: whereupon Christ (as S. Paul testifies) did 1. Cor. 11. v. 14, 15. after the consecration of each kind, particularly recommend the memory of his Passion, as knowing that in each of them alone, was a sufficient Monument and memorial thereof. ANSWER. Significations may be found in Types and figures, being no Sacraments; as in a Vine and Branches, a natural Humane Body, a material House, or Temple, a Lamb led before the shearer, and the like: but yet, because they are otherwise in the Sacrament, both in regard of a more perfect and lively representation, and also because a special Promise of Divine assistance and grace is annexed to the Sacramental signs, used and received, according to Christ's Institution, which belongeth not to other signs and figures, therefore it is inconsequent, to say one Element received alone, signifies as much in substance, as both: Ergo, the use of one Element, is as profitable and effectual, as the use and reception of both. But if the objection be reduced to form, the defect will be more apparent. If there is the same signification, of one single Element, which there is of both, then there is the same benefit obtained by receiving one, which is obtained by receiving both. But there is the same signification of one single Element, which there is of both, to wit, spiritual Food, union of the Faithful, and Christ's passion: Ergo, There is the same benefit obtained, by receiving in one kind, as in both. I answer: First, denying the consequence of the Mayor Proposition. For although there were the same signification in one Element, which is of both, yet there is not equal benefit reaped by receiving one, as is reaped by receiving both; because the promise of Grace is annexed to the receiving both, and not to the receiving of one without the other: for when a promise is made upon condition of a duty to be performed, the promise is not fulfilled, but upon observing the condition. Now Christ having instituted the Sacrament as a seal of his Covenant, and appointed the same to be received in both kinds (as his Institution shows) a Ferus. in joh. 6. In institutione huius Sacramenti Christus imperatiue loquitur, accipite commedite, hoc facite. the Church cannot expect that Christ should fulfil his promise, in giving his flesh and blood by the Sacrament, unless the Church observe his ordinance, and do that which he appointed. Also, obedience is better than Sacrifice, 1. Sam. 15. 22. but when we administer and receive in both kinds, we obey Christ, saying, Drink ye all of this; and we disobey, when we do otherwise. Therefore although there were the same signification of one Element, which is of both, yet the same benefit is not reaped by receiving one, which is obtained by receiving both. Secondly, to the assumption I answer, that there is a more perfect and lively representation b Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. m. 3. ar. 2. Etsi Christus homo naturali quadam similitudine representatur utraque specie: non tame ex institutione, signatur utraque: sed secundum carnem specie panis, secundum sanguinem specie vini. of spiritual feeding and refection, and of conjunction of the faithful, and of Christ's death and Sacrifice upon the cross, by both the signs, than by one: and pouring out of the wine c Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca 58. Eius sanguis in ora fidelium funditur. , doth in a clearer manner represent and signify the effusion of Christ's blood, and also the separation of his body and soul; and there is a more perfect c Cyprian. ep. 63. in Calais Dominico & plebi ministrando, non hoc faciunt, quod Iesus Christus Dominus & Deus noster huiva Sacrificij Atuhor & Doctor, fecit & docuit. similitude of nourishment in Bread and Wine a Cyprian. li. 2. ep. 3. siue epist. 63. Calix Dominicus sic bibentes inebriat, ut sobrios faciat, ut mentes ad spiritalem sapientiam redigat, ut a sapore isto saeculari, ad intellectum Dei unusquisque resipiscat. Chrys. in joh. Hom 45. Hic sanguis facit, ut imago in nobis regia 〈◊〉: Hic sanguis pulchritudinem atque nobilitatem animae quam semper irregat & notrit, languescere non sinit, etc. Hic mysticus sanguis Daemones procul pellit, Angelos & Angelorum Dominum ad nos allicit Daemones enim cum Dominicum sanguinem in nobis vident, in fugam vertuntur, Angeli autem procurrunt Iren. li. 5. ca 1. Ruits. Contr. Theol. 32. pa. 152. Species panis sola non significat gratiam ut reficientem animam, 〈◊〉, sed partialiter. Alex. Hel. 4. q. 10. m. 4. ar. 1. §. 1 Read 〈◊〉, together, than in Bread alone, Eccles. 4. 9 so likewise two Elements represent more than one, and nourish more than one, and unite more than one. Otherwise, if the representation of one Element, were equal to the representation of both, to what purpose should our Saviour institute a Sacrament in two kinds, which (according to Papists, who will seem wiser than God) b Arboreus Sap joh. 6. Caro Christi 〈◊〉 animam, sed sanguis vivisicat animam, & emundat conscientiam nostram ab operibus mortuis. is as sufficient in one kind, as in both? Jesuit. The fourth thing required to the substance of a Sacrament, is causality, to wit, to work in the soul the Spiritual effects it signifies. This causality cannot be wanting to the Sacrament under one kind, wherein is contained the fountain of Spiritual life. For, the cause why the Sacrament in both kinds giveth grace, and refresheth the soul, is, That Christ is assistant unto them, bound by his promise at the presence of sensible signs, to work the proportionable spiritual effects in disposed souls. But Christ is in the Sacrament under the form of Bread, and he is able through infinite power, and bound by inviolable promise, to work the effect of grace, preserving unto life eternal, the worthy participant of this Sacrament, under the forms joan. 6.55. of Bread, Qui manducat hunc panem vivet in aeternum. Not any doubt than may be made but the Sacrament in one kind is full, entire, complete in substance; and by participation thereof, prepared consciences do receive the benefit of celestial favour, that conserveth the life of the soul, with daily increase in perfection. ANSWER. The sum of this objection is: There is the same power of causing Grace, in one sign received alone, as in both; because Christ, the Fountain of Grace, is received in one sign alone, joh. 6. 51. Therefore the receiving of one sign alone, is as sufficient, and profitable, as the sumption of both. The Antecedent of this Argument is denied. And the Scripture, joh. 6. 51. saith not, Whosoever eateth Sacramental Bread, without Wine, shall live for ever; but if any eat this Bread which came down from Heaven, to wit, Christ jesus incarnate a Hilar. d. Trin. lib. 10. se panem hic dicit, etc. Chrys. in joh. Ho. 45. Panem vitae seipsum appellat, etc. Ferus in joh. 6. Hic panis de quo Christus hic loquitur, nihil aliud est quam Incarnatio, Passio, & Meritum Christi, atque adeo Christus ipse, cum omnibus quae habet quae fecit & passus est. Caietan. joh. 6. Primo tractat de seipso ut est panis vitae: Deinde de Passione sua futura, secundum quam est cibus & potus vitae. Ibid. Sermo formalis non est de Sacramento, sed de re Sacramenti, de Fonte Sacramenti. Ibid. Non est ad literam sermo de manducare & bibere Sacramentum Eucharistiae, sed de manducare & bibere Mortem Christi. , shall live for ever. And then it followeth, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you, joh. 6.53. Now let the Romist choose which Exposition he pleaseth. If our Saviour, in these last words, speaketh of Sacramental and Spiritual eating jointly, than Communion in both kinds is necessary to life eternal; and if he speak of Spiritual eating only, by Faith, than this Scripture proveth not the necessity of receiving either Bread or Wine b Ferus, in joh. 6. Dicere quod sine corporali perceptione Sacramenti, nulli possit contingere vita, admodum durum, imo temerarium, & falsum est. Ibid. Manducatur corpus Christi in Sacramento: & haec quidem manducatio non simpliciter necessaria est ut prior, plures enim etiam sine hac saluati sunt, & saluantur: sed tamen ita necessaria est, ut non contemnatur vel negligatur suo tempore. , and much less proveth it, that there is the power of causing Grace, in receiving Bread alone. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. Communion under one kind, not against Christ his Precept. ALthough Communion under both kinds pertain not to the substance of the Sacrament; yet if Christ did specially command the same, we are bound to that observance, and should by Communion under one kind, sin not against his Sacrament and Institution, but against a special Divine Precept. ANSWER. WHen Christ instituted the Sacrament, he provided and prescribed two material Elements, and not one only, or none; and he sanctified and distributed both, and with his Institution and Practice, he conjoined a Precept; Do this in remembrance of me: Drink ye all of this. Saint Paul likewise saith, Let a man prove himself, and so let him eat of this Bread, and drink of this Cup: and the practice of the holy Apostles in their days, and of the successors of the Apostles; and Saint Paul's own practice appeareth, 1. Cor. 10.16. & cap. 11.26. and he describeth Communicating, by taking the Cup, as a most noble part, saying, Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils, 1. Cor. 10.21. justin Martyr, who borders justin. Apol. 2. pa. 76. & 77. upon the Apostles, saith, That Christians in his age, distributed the sanctified Bread and Wine, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to every one present: and he addeth further, that the Apostles taught, That jesus commanded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. them to do thus. Saint Chrysostome saith a Chrys. sup. 1. Cor. 11. & sup. 2. Cor. Hom. 18. , That whereas in the old Law there was a difference between Priests and Laics in communicating of victim; in the New Testament it is otherwise, for one Body and one Cup is ministered to all. This practice continued as a Law, more than a thousand years after Christ. And Haimo b Haimo. sup. 1. Cor. 10. pa. 109. (who lived in the year 850.) saith, That in his days, all the people received out of the Cup, the Blood of Christ. And Paschasius c Paschas. Ratbert. d. corp. & sang. Dom. ca 19 Nec caro sine sanguine utique, nec sanguis sine carne iure communicatur, etc. Non recte caro sine sanguine communicatur, etc. Ibid. cap. 15. Quapropter 〈◊〉 homo quotiescunque bibis hunc calicem, etc. after him, saith, That the Flesh, or Bread, is not lawfully received, without the Cup or Blood. But whatsoever our Saviour himself, and his Apostles, and their successors, and the ancient Church, by perpetual succession, taught and practised a thousand years and upward, yea, even the Latin Church itself, and the Eastern Churches c Ochagavia. d. Sacram. tr. 2. d. Euch. q. 18. Graeci suis Laicis distribuunt utranque speciem panis & vini. to this day; the Romish generation exalting itself above God, not only presumeth to commit Sacrilege at home, but it censureth the followers of Christ's Testament of damnable Heresy d Gerson. d. come. sub utraque. pag. 526. Sumptio talis est temeraria, presumptuosa, scandalosa, seditiosa, & Ecclesiastici ritus turbativa, & ex consequenti aeternae damnationis inductiva, pag. 529. Aduersus haeresin novam de necessaria communicatione Laicorum, sub utraque specie, pag. 528. Rex Rom. acciperet potestatem, à sacro Concilio (Constantiensi) factum illud 〈◊〉, sicut alias haereses in Bohemia, cum potentia brachij secularis. . Now, that they may with some colour advance their own Tradition against the Ordinance of Christ, they pry into every corner, and invent frivolous Glosses and Pretexts, as we shall further perceive, by that which followeth in our Adversary's Discourse. Jesuit. Hence we may probably infer, That Christ gave no special Precept thereof, because Christ hath commanded no more concerning the use of the Eucharist, than what by the substance of the Institution and nature of the Sacrament we are bound unto; leaving accidental circumstances belonging thereunto, to be ordained by the Apostles and Pastors of the Church, as S. Augustine noteth, saying, August. Ep. 118. Our Lord did not appoint in what order the Sacrament of the Eucharist was to be taken afterward, but left authority to make such appointments unto his Apostles, by whom he was to dispose, and order his Church: So clearly doth S. Augustine speak, that Christ gave no commandment to his Church concerning the use of the Sacrament, besides such as are contained in the substance of the Institution of the Sacrament, of which kind, Communion under both kinds, cannot be, as hath been proved, which will farther appear, by pondering the places alleged to prove a Precept. ANSWER. Ecclesiastical power, to add, detract, or alter any thing about Sacraments, is confined to things adiaphorous: and Saint Augustine a Aug. Ep. 118. ca 2. Totum hoc genus rerum, liberas habet obseruationis, etc. , in the place objected, speaketh expressly of these: but the material parts of Sacraments, belong to their substance, even as the matter of the heavens is of the substance of the heavens, and the matter of the Scripture is of the substance of the Scripture. And if in the holy Eucharist the Element of Wine is not of the substance thereof, than the Eucharist may be administered without wine; also the kind of the Element may be changed, and milk or broth, substituted in the place of wine; and the Communion may be celebrated in wine without bread. In all compounded things, the moiety of the matter, is the moiety of the substance: and whatsoever jesuited Romists teach, I see not how their Laickes can truly say, that they have at any time in all their lives been partakers of this Sacrament; for if half a man be not a man, than likewise half a Communion is not a Communion. If they except, That they receive the Blood of Christ Consecutive, or by concomitancy: I reply, This Answer solveth not the difficulty, for I dispute of the material Element, and the direct receiving thereof, and not of receiving the blood of Christ spiritually, or any other way. Now the wine is a moiety of the substantial outward matter of the Eucharist, and therefore if they receive not the wine, they receive not the one half of the substantial outward matter of the Eucharist; and consequently, they receive no Eucharist: for as the poop of a ship, the prow being broken away, is no ship; and as half a cloak is not a garment to keep a man warm: so likewise, half a Communion is no Sacrament. And concerning the being of Christ's Blood in the bread by concomitancy: I answer, If this were granted, they receive not Christ's blood Sacramentally, but some other way: for nothing is received Sacramentally, but that which is caused by the words of consecration: Ergo, It is not there Sacramentally, and consequently it is not received Sacramentally. Jesuit. The words of Christ, Do this in remembrance of me, do no ways infer a Precept of both kinds. First, 1. Cor. 11. because he said, Do this in remembrance of me, only of the Sacrament in form of bread; of the form of wine, not absolutely, but conditionally, Do this as often as you drink, in memory of me, that the Adversaries of the Church, might not have any the least plausible show, to complain of her neglecting God's Precept. For this Precept, Do this, being the only Precept given by Christ to his Church, as shall afterwards appear, and given absolutely of the form of Bread; conditionally of the form of Wine; there is no colour to accuse the Church of doing against Christ's Precept, by Communion under one kind. ANSWER. The first reason upon which you presume, that our Saviour's words, Do this in remembrance of me, are not Preceptive, in regard of Communion in both kinds, is an empty shadow, without substance of matter. Our Saviour in your Tenet, saith not, Do this as often as you Lay men communicate, but whensoever you receive the cup and drink, then do it in remembrance of me. But if this be the whole sense, than Christ's words must be resolved against sense in this manner. As often as you Lay people drink, which needeth never to be done by you, (according to Romish Divinity) Do this nothing, in remembrance of me. Secondly, Quotiescunque biberitis, as often as you drink, maketh not the Precept conditional, in respect of the cup, more than of the bread: for in the very next verse it followeth, Quotiescunque ederitis panem hunc, as often as you shall eat this bread: and therefore, if as often as you shall drink, restraineth the speech in regard of the cup, then as often as you shall eat, restraineth the Precept in regard of the bread. And Haimo saith, Idem sensus est, etc. There is the same sense of, Do this, being referred to the cup, as of Do this, being referred to the bread. But Do this, referred to the bread, is a Precept: Ergo, Do this, referred to the cup, is also a Precept. But the Romanist, infatuated with this conceit, croweth as followeth, That the Adversaries of the Church might not have the least plausible show, etc. The Vermin is deceived, in calling us, Adversaries of the Church; for we are fast friends to the true Catholic Church, and we are Adversaries to Romists, an unsound Church, no otherwise than Saint Paul was to the Galathians, when he said, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth, Gallat. 4. 16. And touching the fancy of this Obiectour, I add, That even as when Saint Paul said, 1. Cor. 10. 31. Whether ye eat or drink, or whatsoever thing else ye doc, do all to the glory of God: If these words should be resolved in this manner, As often as ye eat and drink, do this to the glory of God; the placing of this word, As often, restraineth not the speech from being a Precept: so likewise, when Saint Paul saith, As often as ye shall drink, do this in remembrance of me; this manner of speaking, altereth not his words from being a commandment. Jesuit. Secondly, suppose Christ spoke these imperative words, Do this, after the giving of the Cup, yet are they to be understood with this restriction, Do this, that is, all things that belong to the essence and substance of this Action, in memory of me: for if we extend the Precept, Do this, further than the substance of the Action, unto the accidentary circumstances thereof, in which, Christ did then institute and gave the Sacrament, many absurdities will follow. By this rule, we must always celebrate and receive the Eucharist after supper, as Christ did; especially, seeing this circumstance of after supper, was chosen of Christ, as being very proper and mysterious: for thereby is signified, that this is the sacrifice which succeeds the Paschall Lamb that was offered in the evening: the sacrifice, whereof the royal Prophet sayeth in the person of Christ, Elevatio manuum mearum Sacrificium vespertinum, The Sacrifice instituted in the Evening of the World, to continue until the end thereof. We should also by this rule, be bound still to celebrate in Azime, that is, unleavened Bread, in which Christ did celebrate and give the Sacrament, saying, Do this: which circumstance was also mystical, signifying the purity of our Saviour's virginal body and person, which was without any leaven of fin. And besides, the Priest might not give the Sacrament unto any but such whose feet he had washedafore, seeing Christ gave the Eucharist with this preparative Circumstance: which doubtless is very pertinent, and mysterious, to signify with what purity of conscience men ought to approach unto the sacred Table. If to bind men to observe these circumstances of our Saviour's Action (though mysterious and Sacramental) were absurd (as without doubt it is most absurd) than we must not extend the Precept, Do this, to the Circumstances of Christ's Action; but acknowledge that the Precept, Do this, only includes the doing of that which pertains to the substance of the Sacrament, and so not to the giving of both kinds, the substance thereof being entire in one only kind, as hath been proved. ANSWER. This precept is not extended to things adiaphorous, and accidental circumstances, such as was the time, after supper; the place, and upper room; the persons, men only, and no women; the quality of the bread, unleavened; the gesture of the receivers, the previous washing of feet, etc. but it commandeth only that which was of the substance of the holy Eucharist. And the sacramental signs of Bread and Wine, or such as hath formerly been proved, pag. 482. etc. Jesuit. The second Text, much urged for the giving of the Cup unto all men, is the words of our Saviour, Bibite ex hoc omnes, wherein some note our Saviour's providence, saying, That he foreseeing that some would take the Cup from the Laity, granting them the consecrated Bread, said of the Supper, Bibite ex hoc omnes; but not of the Bread, Manducate ex hoc omnes. I answer, The words of our Saviour be plain, Drink ye all of this; but the difficulty is, to whom they are spoken, and who are these all? Luther would have, all men for whom the blood of Christ was shed; whence is follows, that as the Blood of Christ was shed for all men, even Infidels, jews, Turks, Infants, the Cup also should be given unto all these, which to say were very absurd. Others restrain the word, All, to the Faithful, come to the years of discretion, who must drink of the Cup all of them. But what shall we say of them that are by nature abstemij, who cannot endure the taste of any wine, yet are not to be excluded from the Sacrament? Wherefore the truth is, that these words were spoken unto all the Apostles, and to them All only. And though it be enough for Catholics to say it, and put their Adversaries to prove their pretended precept, which they call of the eternal King, for the Cup (and so long as they cannot clearly convince the contrary, good reason the word of the Church, defined by Counsels, should stand) yet exabundanti, we can very probably show out of the sacred Text, that the particle All, concerns all the Apostles only. First, Math. 26. what one Evangelist saith was commanded unto all, Bibite ex hoc omnes, Drink ye all of this; another relates to have been answerably performed by them all, biberunt . ex eo omnes, all drank thereof. But the second All, is restrained to all the Apostles, and to them all only: What reason then is there to extend the words, Drink ye all of this, further than to all the Apostles? ANSWER. That which S. Stephen spoke to the unfaithful jews, Ye do always resist the holy Ghost, Act. 7. 51. is verified in the Pharisees of Rome, for no light of heavenly verity is so illustrious, which this generation, in favour of their own impiety, will not endeavour to cloud. Is it possible for any thing to be more evident for Communion in both kinds, than this precept of Christ, Drink ye all of this a Gerard. Lorich. in 7. par. Can. Sunt Pseudocatholici qui reformationem Ecclesiae quoquo modo remorari non verentur. Hij ne Laicis altera species restituatur, nullis parcunt blasphemijs. Dicunt enìm Christum solis Apostolis dixisse bibite exhoc omnes. A 〈◊〉 verba Canonis habent, accipite & manducate ex hoc omnes. Hic dicant oro, nun & hoc ad solos dictum sit Apostolos. Ergò Laicis & a specie panis est abstinendum; quod dicere est haeresis & blasphemia pestilens & execrabilis. Consequitur ergò, utrumquè verbum dictum esse ad omnem Ecclesiam. ? especially when the same is expounded by the immediate practice of our Saviour, and by the practice of the holy Apostles, and of the Primitive Church? But the sons of darkness, having renounced verity, and chosen the way of error, blunder and grope in the clear light, and verba recta ac veritatis luce fulgentia, tortuosis interpretationibus obscurare & depravare moliuntur (as S. Augustine b Aug. tom. 7. d. nupt. & concupis. lib. 2. cap. 2. long since spoke of the Pelagians.) The jesuits evasion or starting hole is, the words of Christ, Math. 26.27. Drink ye all of this, contain a precept not general to all Communicants, but special or singular, to the Apostles only. The reasons of this assertion are: First, if the precept were general, than all men for whom the Blood of Christ was shed, even Infidels, jews, Turks, and Infants must receive the Cup. A profound objection, and such as will take away the Bread as well as the Cup from Lay people. For at the instant, when Christ ordained and administered the holy Eucharist, none were present (for aught we know) but only the Apostles. And there is extant a special rule touching people of riper years, and for Christians only to receive this Sacrament, 1. Cor. 11.28. etc. cap. 10.17.21. and Cardinal Caietan c Caietan. in Math. 26. Hinc habetur Eucharistiam non esse tribuendam insfantibus, quibus non 〈◊〉 dici accipite comedite, sicut enim quià Dominus dixit nisi quis natus fuerit denuò ex a qua & spiritu, negatur Baptismus infantibus in materno utero, quià non potest denuo nasci qui non est natus, ità dicente Domino in Communione Eucharistiae, accipite commedite, negatur Eucharistia illis, qui adhuc non possunt accipere, qui adhuc non possunt commedere. concludeth the same out of our Saviors' precept, Math. 26.26. The consequence of this Objection, to wit, the Precept of Christ, is not general in respect of all Christians rightly disposed; because when the Eucharist was first administered, and these words uttered, none were present but the Apostles, is like unto these which follow. None were present but the Apostles, and the words were in special directed to them, when Christ said, Watch and pray least ye fall into temptation, Math. 26.41. Ergo, this precept concerneth the Apostles only, and not Lay men. Also when our Saviour said, Math. 18.3. Unless ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God, the Apostles only were present, and the Doctrine was personally pronounced to them alone. Also, Math. 18.9. 15.22. the like is found concerning other doctrines and precepts, and yet these doctrines and precepts are common to all Christians. The Romists (if they were not partial) could distinguish between personal precepts delivered to the Apostles only (as they were by office Pastors of the Church) and between common precepts, delivered unto them as Christians, and as they represented the whole body of the Church. But the Obiectour addeth, That we are not able to demonstrate, that this Precept Drink ye all of this, was common. I answer, First, if that which Christ said to the Apostles, S. Paul spoke to the whole multitude of Believers, than Christ's words uttered to the Apostles were common: But the first is true, 1. Cor. 11. 28. And S. Hierome a Hierom. come. sup. 1. Corin. 11. Chrys. in 1. Cor. 11. Hom. 24. Quod dominicum est privatum fecerant, Coena enim Domini debet esse communis, nam quae Domini sunt, non huius sunt serui, non alterius, sed omnibus communia. Quod enim dominicum est idem & commune est. Nam si Domini est, non debes tanquam proprium tibi assumere, sed tanquam res Domini communiter omnibus proponere Siquidem hoc est Dominicum. Nunc autèm non sinis esse commune sed tibi comedis. Durand Rational. Diu lib. 4 cap. 1. In Primitiva Ecclesia singulis diebus omnes qui celebrationi missarum intererant communicare solebant, eo quod Apostoli omnes, de Calais biberunt, Domino dicente bibite ex co omnes. inferreth upon the same, Oportet Coenam dominicam esse communem, quià ille omnibus Discipulis suis qui aderant, equalitèr tradidit Sacramenta, The Lord's Supper ought to be common, because Christ delivered the Sacraments of his Body and Blood equally to all the Disciples that were present. Secondly, If Communion in both kinds hath not foundation in Christ's words uttered to the Apostles, than Communion in one kind wanteth foundation in Christ's words and institution: and if it have not foundation in Christ's words, than it wanteth all foundation; for S. Paul grounds his whole Doctrine, touching the holy Eucharist, upon our Saviour's words and institution, 1. Cor. 11.23. Thirdly, If the reason why the Apostles received the Cup, was, because they were Priests, than all Priests being present at the communion, aught to receive in both kinds, although they administer not; but this is repugnant to the practice of the Roman Church. Fourthly, It is not certain that the Apostles were Priests when Christ ordained and administered the Eucharist, for that they were not Priests, Math. 18. is affirmed by our Adversaries a Henriq. sum. 〈◊〉. 5. c. 1. nu. 2. , and that they were made Priests, Luke 22. by the words Hoc facite, as Bellarmine, Suares, Henriques, Hosius, Canisius, etc. say, can never be proved: for what force is there in Hoc facite, to conclude Priestly Ordination: and if Hoc facite proveth Priesthood, then Lay men are made Priests, when the words, Do this in remembrance of me, are spoken to them b Aquin. 3. q. 80. ar. 11. Homo tenetur hoc Sacramentum sumere, non solum ex statuto Ecclesiae, sed ex mandato Domini, dicentis, Luc. 22. Hoc facite. , in part, or respectively. Hitherto we have found nothing in our Adversaries, but Sophistry of words, and theomachy against Divine Institution and Apostolical Tradition. But to hold correspondence with the rest, the jesuit addeth: Jesuit. Secondly, These words, Accipite, manducate, bibite, Take, eat, drink, were certainly spoken unto the same persons, and they run so together in rank, that no man can with probability make the one outrun the other: But the command, Accipite, which signifies, Take with your hands, (for it is a Precept distinct from Manducate, which is, take with your mouth) was given to the Apostles only, not unto all the faithful; else we must say, That all Communicants were bound to take the consecrated Bread and Cup with their hands: who ever heard of such a Precept in the Christian Church. ANSWER. This Argument truly propounded, is, All persons commanded to eat, were commanded to take. None but the Apostles were commanded to take: for if Lay men were commanded to take, they must always receive the Eucharist in their hands, Ergo, None but the Apostles were commanded to eat. This Objection, fighteth against Lay men's receiving in one kind, which until 〈◊〉 we supposed Papists had permitted, but it seemeth that they will have the whole use of the Sacrament depend upon the Pope's devotion and pleasure. But touching the Argument, I deny the Assumption: for Lay men were commanded to take, that is, to receive, at least into their mouths, and then to manducate, that is, to chew or swallow, and to let the Element received, pass into their stomach a Bellarm. d. Euchar. li. 1. ca 11. 〈◊〉 ab 〈◊〉 stomachum, per instrumenta humana & naturalia, id est linguam & palatum. . To take with the hand is agreeable to Christ's manner of Administration b Caietan in Mat. 26. 〈◊〉 ego, quod sicut unum Calicem communem omnibus tradidit, ita in una 〈◊〉 panem in duodecim 〈◊〉 fractum, manibus 〈◊〉 tradiderit 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. li. 9 ca 30. Quomodo manus extendes de quibus adhuc sanguis stillat iniustus? Quomodo huiusmodi manibus accipres sanctum Domini corpus? Qua temeritate ore tuo 〈◊〉 sanguinis pretiofi percipies, etc. Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 〈◊〉. 7. ca 9 cum & gratiarum actionem in Ecclesia audisset, & ad illam una cum aliis Amen accinuisset, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, manum ad suscipiendum Sanctum cibum extendisset. Chrys. in Eph. Hom. 3. Quomodo comparebis ante Tribunal Christi, qui manibus & labijs immundis, ipsius audes contingere corpus, etc. Niceph. li. 13. 〈◊〉. 7. 〈◊〉. li. 8. ca 5. Aug. Cont Petil. li. 2. ca 23. 〈◊〉 illum commemoro, etc. Cui pacis osculum inter Sacramenta 〈◊〉, in cuius manibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Rhenanus Annot. in 〈◊〉. d. Cor. 〈◊〉. Satis liquet ex Antiquorum lectione, Eucharistiam olim manibus 〈◊〉 attactum fuisse. Synod. 6. can. 〈◊〉. Et 〈◊〉. ibid. pa. 491. Cyprian. d. Laps. n 64. Plus modo in Dominum manibus atque ore delinquunt, etc. Ib. n. 〈◊〉. Et quod non statim Domini corpus 〈◊〉 accipiat, aut ore polluto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc. , and it was used in the Primitive Church, but the same is not of absolute necessity, for some Communicants may want hands, or the natural use thereof: but to receive into the mouth, and then to manducate or drink, is commanded. The jesuit imagineth, that all taking, is by the hand, and thus he proveth himself to be neither good Grammarian, nor Divine. Virgil saith, Illos porticibus rex accipiebat in amplis: where, accipio is to entertain. S. Paul saith, Per quem accepimus gratiam, Rom. 1. 5. By whom we have received grace and Apostleship, ca 8.15. Ye have received (〈◊〉) the spirit of Adoption. The Angel said, joseph thou son of David, fear not to take Mary thy wife. Math. 1. 20. His Bishopric, let another man take. Act. 1.20. Jesuit. The third reason is, because there was a peculiar and personal cause, Why Christ should give that particular Councillor Admonition (for the imperative word doth not ever signify a precept, but often an advice, or a permission, as your Majesty well knows) to his Apostles, at that time, to wit, because he would have them all, not only drink of his blood, but also would have them drink of the same Cup, without filling and consecrating the same anew, this is more manifest in the Protestants opinion, who think the Chalice whereof Christ said in S. Matthew, Bibite ex hoc omnes, Math. 26.27. to be the same whereof he said in S. Luke, Accipite, dividite Luk. 22. v. 18. inter vos, non enim bibam amplius de hoc genimine vitis: For this being supposed, the words Drink ye all of this, imports the same, as Divide this Cup amongst you. But, Divide this Cup amongst you, was a personal precept, given to all the Apostles; importing that every one should drink but a part of that Cup, and that also in such measure as the Cup, without new filling and consecration, might suffice for all to drink thereof, What? All men in the world? Or all Christians that should succeed them to the World's end? Christ never intended that one Cup for all, nor is it indeed divided or parted with us, but the Apostles drank it up amongst them. Wherefore referring my saying to your Majesty's learned censure, I conclude, that to me it seems clear, that the precept or rather direction, Drink ye all of this, was but personal, confined unto the number of all there then present. ANSWER. The Precept, Drink ye all of this (saith the jesuit) was personal, and concerned the Apostles only, because our Saviour commanded them All to drink of the same Cup without filling and consecrating it anew. But, if Drink ye all of this, had imported a general duty, than Christ could not have stinted them to one single Cup. This objection is grounded upon a false Principle, which is, all Precepts are Personal in regard of their substance, wherein any circumstance is Personal. Nothing can be more absurd and false than this Position: for in the Decalogue itself, some things were Personal, as appeareth by the Preface, Exod. 20.2. Likewise in many general or common Preepts of the old and new Testament, some personal circumstances may be noted, and yet the substance of the Commandment is general. 1. Cro. 28.9. Pro. 30.1.3. Math. 18.2.3. joh. 13.13, 14. Also we may consider a twofold unity of the Cup: Specifical, and Individual; to drink of the same individual Cup, even as to eat of the same individual lose, is an accidental circumstance. But to drink, and receive the common kind, to wit, the fruit of the Wine, this is the substance of the Commandment. If we parallel the Objection, the defect is manifestly ridiculous. It is not of the substance of Christ's Commandment, That lay People shall receive consecrated Bread at the Communion, because the Bread which Christ gave his Disciples, was of one Individual loaf, but the bread of one individual loaf will not suffice all men in the world, therefore the Precept of receiving consecrated Bread was Personal, and concerned the Apostles only. Now if a man should use this Argument, which in substance is the same with the jesuits, he had in my opinion, more cause to blush for shame, than to glory before the Presence of a most judicious and learned King, as this vain Boaster doth. Jesuit. Another text of Scripture some urge to prove, That Communion under one kind is commanded, to wit, the famous place out of the sixth chapter of S. john, Except ye joh. 6.54. eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of man, you shall not have life in you. Where our Saviour under the penalty of losing eternal life, commands not only eating but also drinking, Perchance your Majesty doth not stand much upon this, as not believing that chapter of S. john to concern the Sacramental sumption of our Saviour's Flesh, as also some learned Catholics hold. Not withstanding, though we grant that Chapter to concern the eating and drinking in the Sacrament, as most of the Fathers teach, yet this objection may be easily satisfied by the former Principles: for as we distinguish in the Sacrament the substance and the manner, The substance being to receive the body of Christ, the manner in both kinds by formal eating and drinking: so the same distinction is to be made in our Saviour's Precept about this Sacrament. For howsoever his words may sound of the manner of receiving in both kinds, yet his intention is to command no more than the substance, to wit, that we really receive his body and blood, which may be done under one kind. This is made clear by the Precept by our Saviour given about another Sacrament, to wit, Baptism; where, though his words seem to define the manner, yet his mind was but to determine the substance: He saith to his Apostles, Baptism all nations in the name of the Father, Math. 28.23. and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost: To baptise, signifies the same that the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, not to wet or sprinkle with water, but to put and plunge into the Water by immersion, bathing them in water; in which respect, Baptism is termed by the Apostle, the Laver or Bath of the renovation of the holy Ghost. And yet Ad Tit. 3. c. 54. because the Church teacheth Baptism by 〈◊〉 or sprinkling to be sufficient and substantial Baptism, no less than Baptism by immersion, Christians must and do so interpret the words of Christ (Baptise) that is, plunge into the water all Nations, to command only cleansing and washing in substance, not the manner thereof by immersion, as his words may seem to import, and the Primitive Church did the first six hundred years practise. In this like sort, the words, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink of his blood, you shall not have life in you, be preceptive no further than they signify real receiving of his body and blood; not the manner of both kinds, as may appear by the intention of the Commandment. For as Christ gave this Precept of Eating and Drinking, only to the end that we might have life in us; so likewise he meant to command the same no further than it was necessary to this end. But eating formally the body of Christ under the form of Bread, and virtually and implicitly his blood, as contained within his Sacred body, sufficeth that we may have life in us, as he promiseth in the same place, He that eateth this Bread shall live for Ibidem v. 59 ever: What necessity then is there to understand this Precept of formal receiving in both kinds? But further I add the coniunctive particle (&, and) signifies disjunctively the same that (vel, or) as Argentum Act. 3. 6. & aurum non est mihi, and particularly of this Sacrament, He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth 1. Cor. 11.29. and drinketh damnation: the sense is disjunctive, eateth or drinketh unworthily. In this sort the words of Christ, Except you eat and drink, is to be understood disjunctively, Except you eat the flesh or drink the blood joan. 3.5. of the Son of man, you shall not have life in you. Which disjunctive sense to be the sense intended in this place, may be proved, because else Christ should be contrary to himself: for seeing in the ver. 59 of this Chapter, He promiseth life eternal to eating only, Qui manducat panem vivit in aeternum, If in the four and fifty verse of the same Chapter, he require unto himself life everlasting, eating and drinking both, he should in the space of a few lines speak contraries. And because this is impossible, we interpret the place disiunctively, unless you eat or drink, etc. ANSWER. Cardinal Bellarmine a Bellarm. d. Euchar. l. 1. c. 5. 〈◊〉 tholici fere 〈◊〉 volunt, huius capitis verba de Sacramento ipso Eucharistiae, sive de Sacramentali manducatione corporis Domini in Eucharistia. affirmeth, that the Text of Saint john cap. 6. is to be expounded of the holy Eucharist; and not only of spiritual receiving, but also of Sacramental eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ: And he saith, that although some Catholics, to wit, Gabriel Biel b Biel. Can. Miss. lect. 48. , Cusanus c Cusau. Epist. 7. ad Bohem. , Caietan d Caietan. in 3. q. 80. ar. ult. & sup. joh. 6. , Ruard Tapper e Ruard. Art. 15. , Hesselius f Hessel. lib. d. Com. sub una specie. , and 〈◊〉 g jansen. Concord. cap. 59 , expound this Chapter of spiritual Receiving, yet other Pontificians hold, as himself doth h Bellarm. ib. Caeteri Scriptores Ecclesiastici, quos in maximo numero citat Nicholaus Sanderus in lib. d. 6. cap. joh. summo consensu docent, in hoc capite agi de manducatione Sacramentali, quod sine dubio verissimumest. : with Bellarmine also agree Suares i Suares. in 3. to. 3. Disp. 46. Sect. 2. , Vasques k Vasq. in 3. Disp. 179. cap. 5. , Gregory Valence l Greg. Val. to. 4. Disp. 6. q. 1. punct. 5. , Salmeron, Barradius, etc. From this Exposition, it followeth, That Communicants when they partake the holy Eucharist, aught to receive in both kinds; for our Saviour saith, john 6.54. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, etc. 55. My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed, 56. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 53. Except ye eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the Son of man, etc. Our Adversary, after some staggering about the place, joh. 6. condescendeth at last to Bellarmine's Tenet, and admitting that Saint john treateth of Sacramental Receiving, answers the former places, by a distinction of substance and manner, saying, That howsoever Christ's words may sound of the manner of Receiving in both kinds; yet his intention is, to command no more than the substance; and he proveth this by the example of Baptism, wherein, although according to the letter, dipping and plunging into the water is required, yet according to the Intention, sprinkling is sufficient. But here I demand of the Romist, Whether any thing touching the manner of receiving the Eucharist, is delivered in Christ's words or not? And if nothing, than our Saviour treateth not, either of Spiritual or Sacramental eating or drinking, for both these belong to the manner: and if he speak about the manner, than the Blood of Christ must be Sacramentally received, as well as his Body: but it is not received Sacramentally a Innocent. Papa. d. Offic. Miss. l. 4. c. 21. Nec sanguis sub specie panis, nec corpus sub specie vini bibitur, & comeditur, quia sicut nec sanguis comeditur, nec corpus bibitur, ita 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 specie panis bibitur, aut sub species vini comeditur. Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. m. 4. ar. 1. §. 1. Christus quantum ad corpus non signatur 〈◊〉 in specie vini 〈◊〉 quantum 〈◊〉 sanguinem 〈◊〉, in specie panis, praeterea in hoc Sacramento signatur Christus, 〈◊〉 cibus perfect manducantes reficiens Sacramentaliter & spiritualiter: perfecta autem refectio, non est in pane tantum, necin vino tantum, sed in utroque. under bread alone, because to receive Sacramentally, is to receive under the proper and individual sign, representing the Blood received, which is Wine. And implicit and virtual receiving of Christ's Blood, is spiritual drinking, and this is performed out of the Sacrament, and not only in the same. The last evasion is, That in the words of Christ, Et, is taken for Aut, that is, unless you eat the flesh, or drink the blood of the Son of man, ye have no life, etc. This poor Cavil, borrowed from Claudius de Saints b Claud. Saint. d. Euchar. Repet. 10. cap. 1. , is against the letter of the Text: and if it be admitted, than it will follow, That it is not necessary to drink the blood of the Son of man, implicitly and virtually: and the reason why Christ nameth bread alone, vers. 51. is, in opposition to Manna: for the Son of God descended from heaven by incarnation, and propounded himself incarnate, as an object of Faith c Innocent. Papa. d. Offic. Miss. li. 4. ca 21. Est modus sumendi corpus & sanguinem, quo neutrum manducatur & bibitur. , and because he was the spiritual Life, and food of man's soul, by donation of his Word and Grace; and herein excelled Manna, which was only corporal bread. But in the sacred Eucharist Christ is represented, as having perfected man's salvation, and this representation is made by two sensible signs, wherein his suffering of death, by separation of body and soul, and of body and blood, is visibly proposed: and whosoever receiveth him Sacramentally, as he was sacrificed on the Cross, must receive him by both the signs; because in both, and not in one alone, there is a representation of his Passion, and of the effusion of his blood. As for the Jesuits instance in the manner of Baptising, whether by plunging or by sprinkling, the same is not to purpose: For in our Question, the Dispute is, about taking away one of the Elements and material parts of a Sacrament: in Baptism only a circumstance, in the manner of applying and using the Element, was altered by the Church. But from alteration of a thing accidental, or of circumstance, to infer a liberty to defalcate a substantial part, is sophistical. Jesuit. Jesuit 5. Communion under one kind, not against the Practice of the Primitive CHURCH. Certain it is, that the Primitive Church did very often and frequently use Communion under both kinds, so that Lay men had by prescription a right Ad bibendum poculum Domini iure communicationis admittimus Cypr. l. Ep. 2. to receive in both kinds, yea, they were bound thereunto by the Obligation of custom, not by Divine Precept. ANSWER. f Cyprian. Ep. 54. Quomodo docemus aut provocamus eos, in confession nominis Christi, sanguinem suum fundere, si eis militaturis Christi sanguinem denegamus, aut quomodo ad Martyrij poculum idoneos facimus, si non eos prius ad bibendum in Ecclesia poculum Domini iure communicationis 〈◊〉. Id. Epist. 63. Quomodo possumus propter Christum sanguinem sundere, qui sanguinem Christi 〈◊〉 scimus bibere. THe Primitive Church, in all her public Assemblies and congregations, administered the holy Eucharist to the people in both kinds perpetually, and not frequently only, or often (as the jesait minseth.) And justin Martyr saith a Read before, pag. 482. , That the Apostles prescribed this, as commanded by Christ: and Saint Cyprian b Cyprian. serm. d. Caena. Dom. & Epist. 63. A Domino praecipitur, & ab Apostolis eius idem confirmatur, & ab Euangelicis praeceptis omnino recedendum non esse, & eadem quae magister docuit & fecit, Discipulos quoque obseruare & facere debere, cum in claritate sua, & Maiestate coelesti, venire caeperit, inveniat nos, tenere quod monuit, obseruare quod docuit, facere quod fecit. hath these words, Lex esum sanguinis prohibet, Euangelium precipit ut bibatur; Whereas the old Law forbade the eating of blood, the Gospel commandeth to drink the blood: and in his 63 Epistle, Many Bishops, etc. depart not from that which our Master Christ commanded and performed (Praecepit & iussit) but others of ignorance and simplicity, In Calais Dominico sanctificando, & 〈◊〉 ministrando, In consecrating and ministering the Cup to the people, do not that which Christ our Lord and God performed and taught. Petrus de Occhagavia saith c Occhagavia. d. Sacram. d. Euch. usu & effect. tr. 2. nu. 14. Cyprianus ut legenti 〈◊〉 non habet verba illa, & plebi ministrando. , that the words, Et plebi ministrando, Delivering it to the people, are not St. Cyprians. But this man went by hearsay, as appeareth both by the elder & later Edition d Cyprian. ll. 2. Ep. 3. In the beginning of the Epistle Printed at 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 542. of Cyprian: And that this was the constant Doctrine of this Father, is manifest by other places cited in the Margin e Pammel. Cypr. Epist. 63. . Therefore it is palpably untrue which the jesuit venteth, They were bound thereunto by Obligation of Custom, and not by Divine Precept. Jesuit. Also because the Manichees, being impiously per suaded 〈◊〉. de Heres. 46. that wine was the gall of the prince of darkness, did superstitiously abstain from the Chalice. The Church in detestation 〈◊〉. Ser. 4. d. Quadrages. of this error, commanded, for a time, Communion under both kinds: Upon which occasion Gelasius Pope made Gelas. apud Gratian. d. Consecrat. Cap. 〈◊〉. the decree recorded by Gratian, aut integra Sacramenta suscipiant, aut ab integris arceantur. And why, because such Abstinents, 〈◊〉 qua superstitione docentur astringi, that is were superstitious, not abstaining out of any devotion, but out of impious persuasion of the impurity of God's creature. Wherefore the crime with which some Protestants charge us, That our receiving under the sole form of Bread, is to jump in opinion with the Manichees, we may (as Doctor Morton confesseth) reject as injurious, 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 appeal, li. 2. ca 4. 140. saying, That it was not the Manichees 〈◊〉 from wine, but the reason of their for 〈◊〉, that was judged heretical. This custom was the cause that Cyprian 〈◊〉. de Coena Domini. sayeth, That the Law 〈◊〉 the eating of blood, but the 〈◊〉 commands the same should be drunk, not only because some Christians, to wit, Priests are bound to 〈◊〉 the Blood of Christ, but also because Christ in his 〈◊〉 did 〈◊〉 the Sacrament of his Body and Blood in both kinds. Whence grew the custom of the Primitive Church, to receive in both kinds, and by custom there grew further, an Oligation to drink of the 〈◊〉 there were some just cause of 〈◊〉, as in the sick, and in some that by nature loathed wine. ANSWER. One error begets another. It was formerly said, that Communion in both kinds was used by the Fathers, as a matter of custom only, and not because of precept: now it is added, that this was done only because of the error of the Manichees. I answer, First, before ever the Manichees appeared in any number a Prateol. d. Haer. li. 11. Manichaei à manete quodam, etc. dicti sunt qui circa annum 273, etc. , Communion in both kinds was in practice, as appeareth by the Apostles, and by Ignatius, Dionysius, justin Martyr, Ireneus, Tertullian, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and Saint Cyprian a Floruit (Cyprianus) an. 250. Bell. d. Scriptor. . Secondly, although Pope 〈◊〉 b Lev, Serm. 4. d. Quadrag. Cum ad tegendum infidelitatem svam nostris audent interesse mysterijs, ità in Sacramentorun Communione se temperant, ut interdum tutius lateant, ore indigno Christi corpus accipiunt, sanguinem autem redemptionis nostrae, haurire omnino declinant. Quod ideò vestram 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ut vobis huiusmodi homines, & his manifestentur 〈◊〉, & quorum 〈◊〉. fuerit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 notati & 〈◊〉 à Sanctorum societate 〈◊〉 Sacerdotali authoritate. in his Sermon speaketh of the Manichees, yet Vasques c Vasques. in 3. disp. 216. cap. 4. nu. 42. Ego existimo nequè proptèr Manicheorum, Haeresin, commendatum fuisse ab Apostolis, aut à Leone primo usum Calicis, etc. Leo non commendavit usum Calicis contrà Manichaeos', fed admonuit ut diligentèr obseruarent quosdam Manichaeos', qui ut se Catholicos simularent, ità sumebant Calicem, ut sanguinem non haurirent in altera specie. the jesuit saith, That he commanded not the use of the Cup; because of them, but required that these Heretics which feigned themselves Catholics, and came to the holy Communion, receiving the Bread, and taking the Cup into their hands, pretending that they drunk the Wine, and yet did not, should carefully be observed. Thirdly, touching the place of Pope Gelasius d Gratian. d. Consecrat. Dist. 2. cap. Comperimus autem, quod quidem sumpta tantummodo corporis sacri portione à Calice sacti cruoris abstineant. Qui proculdubio (nescio qua superstitione dicuntur astringi) aut integra Sacramenta percipiant aut ab integris arceantur, quià divisio unius, eiusdemquè mysterij sine grandi sacrilegio, non potest provenire. , the same Author saith e Vasques Disp. 216. cap. 6. nu. 76. Quidam probabilitèr explicant de Laicis Manichaeis, qui communicabant sub altera specie tantum, etc. Verum haec explicatio, licet reliquis verbis 〈◊〉 accommodari possit, extremis tamèn quibus causam reddit, non potest convenire. Ill is enim denotat, tale esse my sterium secundum se, ut sine grandi sacrilegio dividi nequeat, nempè intelligere 〈◊〉 ratione suae significationis & institutionis. , That whereas some of his part apply the same to the Manichees, yet this exposition agreeth not with the last branch of the Canon; for therein Gelasius teacheth that the mystery of the Eucharist is of that nature in regard of itself, that without grievous sacrilege it cannot be divided and severed the one part from the other, to wit, because of the institution and signification. Thus our Adversary is confuted, touching Pope Leo and Gelasius, by a most intelligent and learned Doctor of his own society. Jesuit. And as this is certain and granted on our part, so it is no less certain that the Primitive Church did never practise the use of the Cup, as pertaining to the essential integrity of the Sacrament, or as commanded by divine precept, but thought the recoiving under one and both kinds, a thing indifferent. This may be proved by the consideration of the time since Christ's 〈◊〉, from our days upward, whence I gather five Arguments. First, is the confession of our Adversaries, amongst whom a Bohemian Protestant doth profess, That having 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Confess. fid. Cath. ca 19 Hospin. Hist. sacra. pa. 2. fo. 112. the fear of God before his eyes, be dares not censure the Roman Church of Heresy in this point. Hospinian writes that some Protestants confessed that whole christ was really present, exhibited, and received under every kind, and therefore under the only form of Bread: and that they did not judge those to do evil that communicated under one kind. Melancthon, As to eat, or not to eat Swine's flesh, 〈◊〉. in 2. Edit. loc. come. Impress. Argent. ann. 1525. fol. 78. is placed in our power, and athing indifferent, so (saith he) I judge of the Eucharist, that they fin not, who knowing and believing this liberty, do use either part of the signe. And Luther, They fin not against Christ, who use 〈◊〉. de Captiu. Babylon. ca d. Euchar. one kind, seeing Christ doth not command to use it, but hath left it to the will of every one. And Hospinian allegeth Hospin. Histor. sacr. 1. 2. fo. 12. Luther, affirming, It is not needful to give both kinds, but the one alone sufficeth: the Church hath power of ordaining only one, and the people ought to be content therewith, if it be ordained by the Church. But these testimonies though they may serve to stop the mouth of a clamorous Adversary, yet are they not sufficient to satisfy any judicious man, in regard their Authors were men most uncertain and various in their Doctrines about Religion, now averring as Orthodox and divine Truth, what soon after they fell to abhor as heretical and impious. ANSWER. Concerning Luther, Melancthon, johannes Perzibram, etc. I answer, that your benefactor Coccius (to whom you are perpetually indebted for your readings) allegeth some such sayings out of these Authors, but how truly it is uncertain; for in the ordinary editions, I find the contrary delivered by them a Luther. Edit. Wittenberg. anno 1546. d. Captivit. Babil. d. Euchar. pa. 95. col. 2. Siutra species potest negari Laicis poterit & eye pars Baptismi & poenitentiae tolli. Sivini speciem potest Ecclesia tollere Laicis, potest & panis speciem tollere, etc. Melancth. Loc. Edit. 1561. Lipsiae pa. 188. jewel. Reply. ar. 2. These godly learned men, when they saw that through the malice of their 〈◊〉, they could not obtain, that Christ's Institution might universally be received, yet they desired at least, it might be left free without restraint, for every Church to do therein as they should think good, and that without murmur or offecne of others, etc. Not that they thought Christ had not ordained the Sacrament to be administered unto the people in both kinds, or that in itself it is indifferent, but as the godly Fathers at the beginning, when they could not persuade the princes of the world, and their people to receive the 〈◊〉 yet they thought they were 〈◊〉 when they might have place and liberty for themselves, surely and with quiet conscience to meet together, and to preach the Gospel. . , made a Book of Recognitions. And it were more seemly for yourself to revoke your errors than to persist in a blind and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Truth. Jesuit. I add therefore, secondly, the definitions of the three general Counsels celebrated before the breach of Luther from the Roman Church. The Council of Florence, wherein Concil. Floren. in decreto Eugenij. 41. were present the Grecian and Armenian Bishops, where 〈◊〉 is defined, that Christ is whole under each 〈◊〉. The Council of 〈◊〉, though they allowed the use Concil. Basilien. sess. 30. of the Cup 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉, defined the lawfulness of Communion under one kind. The Council of Constance gave Concil. Constantiens. sess. 13. example unto both these former Counsels, being the first that defined this truth. ANSWER. You add nothing of any worth, for the Counsels of Constance and Basil were in your own eyes uncanonical and he adlesse, and are rejected by yourselves in diverse articles a Const. Concil. sess. 4. Basil. sess. 33. decree, That the Pope is inferior to the Council, and fallible in his iudgement. : and when you prove (which will be Ad Calendas Graecas) that the three Synods, named by you, were general Counsels, it shall be granted that Communion in one kind is not destitute of general Synodical late Testimony. Jesuit. The third argument, is the received and allowed general custom of the Church, which spontaneously even before the Council of Constance, did abstain from the Cup, as the said Council doth acknowledge: which may be proved by the testimonies of many that lived before the Council of Constance. Yea Alexander Halensis (who lived two Halens. 4. p. q. 11. 〈◊〉. 2. a. 4. 55: 3. hundred years before the 〈◊〉 of Constance) sayeth, That almost every where, Lay men received under the sole for me of Bread. And venerable Bede doth signify, Beda, Hist. Gent. Anglic. lib. 2. c. 5. & lib. 4. c. 14. That in the Church of England, ever since the first 〈◊〉 of her under S. Gregory, was used 〈◊〉 under one kind for the Laity: which could never have entered into the Church, without being 〈◊〉 and marked as an Heresy, had not the Church ever held Communion under one or both kinds, as a thing of indifferency. ANSWER. The Greek Church always received in both kinds (as yourselves acknowledge) a 〈◊〉 before, pag. 482. therefore Communion in one kind was at no time an universal Custom. Also Vasques b Vasq. disp. 216. cap. 3. nu. 38. Negare non possumus 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia Latina fuisseusum utriusque speciei, & usque ad tempora Sancti Thomae durasse. the jesuit saith, We cannot deny, but that even in the Latin Church, Communion in both kinds was used, and had continuance until the age of Thomas Aquinas. Alexander de Hales affirmeth c Alex. Hal. 4. q. 10. m. 4. §. 1. Sumpto hoc Sacramento dignè in 〈◊〉 specie, maior est effectus unionis corporis Mystici cum capite quam sumpto sub altera. Ibid. q. 11. m. 2. ar. 4. §. 3. Sumptio sub utraque specie; quem modum fumendi tradidit Dominus, est maioris efficaciae, & complementi. Item, Licet illa sumptio quae est in accipiendo sub una specie sufficiat, illa tamen quae est sub duabus, est maioris meriti, tum ratione augumentationis devotioris, tum ratione fidei dilatationis actualis. , There is more Merit and power of Grace in Communion in both kinds, than in one. Lastly, you were guided with that Spirit which is mentioned 3. Kings 22. v. 21. when you affirm, That venerable Bede saith, in the Church of England, ever since her first Conversion under S. Gregory, Communion under one kind was in use for the Laity. First, No such report is found in this Author: Secondly, In one of the Testimonies cited by yourself, the contrary is affirmed. For the two Apostles which are reported to have spoken to a certain young Lad, say as followeth d Beda, Hist. Anglorum, lib. 4. c. 14. pa. 132. Expectare habes, donec Missae celebrantur, ac viatico Dominici corporis & sanguinis, accepto sic infirmitate simul & morte absolutus, ad aeterna in coelis gaudia subleveris. : You must wait until the Mass or Communion be ended; and having then received the holy Food of the Lords Body and Blood, you shall be delivered from your infirmity by Death, and exalted to celestial joys. Jesuit. The fourth Argument is drawn from many signs and tokens, that the Primitive Church did sometimes use Communion under one kind. First, the 〈◊〉 received under the only form of Bread, as may appear by the History of Serapion, related by Eusebius, and the Grecians Euseb. li. 6. Histor. ca 36. ex Epist. Dionis. Alex. ad Fabium. Genebrardus. Paulinus in vita Ambrosijs. at this day though they give the Cup to the Communicants in the Church, yet to the sick they send the Sacrament under one kind. Yea S. Ambrose, as Paulinus relateth in his life, at his death received the Sacrament under the sole form of Bread, and strait after the receiving thereof gave up his soul. ANSWER. First, touching Serapion, related by Eusebius, he received both Eus. Hist li. 6. c. 36. Bread and Wine: for the lad which brought the Portion of the Eucharist, was commanded by the Priest, which sent him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to sop the Bread into Wine, and being moistened, to put it into the old man's mouth; and this was performed accordingly, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a Particulan puer quam apportarat 〈◊〉 sive intinctam in 〈◊〉 senis 〈◊〉. the lad wetted, or moistened the Portion of Bread, which he received of the Priest, and infused the same into Serapion the old man's mouth; and the Council of Towers, alleged by Burchardus and Iuo b Burchard. & Iuo. 〈◊〉 ut Eucharistia quae in viaticum ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reseruatur, 〈◊〉 sit in sanguinem Domini, ut veraciter presbyter 〈◊〉 possit, corpus & sanguis Domini jesu Christi, prosit tibi in vitam aeternam. , reporteth the manner and reason of dipping the Bread in this sort: We command, That the Eucharist which is 〈◊〉 to be given sick Persons, shall be dipped into the blood of our Lord, that the Priest may say in truth, The body and blood of our Lord jesus Christ profit thee to life eternal. Which dipping showeth that they thought it not sufficient to give the sick only the Bread. Secondly, if Paulinus (of whom Erasmus c Erasm. Censura ante opera Ambr. Idem est Artifex qui tam multa contaminavit in scriptis Hieronimianis & Augustinianis natus ad hunc ludum. saith, it is the same Craftsman, which hath corrupted so many things in the writings of S. Hierome and S. Augustine) report truly touching S. Ambrose, this proveth not, That Communion in one kind was in ordinary ufe, but that S. Ambrose being speechless, and without understanding, and deceasing instantly after the Bread was put into his mouth d Paulin. 〈◊〉 Ambr. Qui descendens 〈◊〉 Sancti Domini corp' quo accepto ubi glutivit emisit spiritum. , and consequently being prevented by death, received (by reason of this accident) one material part of the Sacrament only. Jesuit. Secondly, it was an ancient custom in the Church to Tertul. li. 2. add 〈◊〉. ca 5. Basil. Epist. ad Caesar. 〈◊〉. Pratum 〈◊〉. ca 〈◊〉. give the Sacrament unto Lay men, especially unto Eremites, to be carried in most pure linen corporals home to their houses, to be taken in the morning before all other meats, but there is no sign or token in Antiquity, That the Faithful, together with the consecrated Bread did carry away with them consecrated Wine: yea diverse Histories show, the only form of Bread was carried away, and consequently that the Church did not then esteem of Communion 〈◊〉 one kind, as of a Sacrilegious maiming of the Sacrament, as Protestants now do. ANSWER. It was an ancient custom to send the Communion to Persons absent, in both kinds, as appeareth by the History of Exuperius, in S. Hierome a Hier. tom. 1. Ep. 4. Nihil Exuperio ditius, qui corpus Domini canistro vimineo, saguinem portat in vitro. Chrysost. to. 6. Ep. ad Innocent. Etian sanguis Domini in Sacrario seruatur. Niceph. Hist. Ecclesiast. lib. 13. cap. 19 . And Gregory Nazianzen b Greg. Naz. Or. 11. in Laud. Gorgon. pag. 187. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. saith of his sister Gorgonia, if her hand had laid up any Portion of the types or tokens of the precious body, and of the blood, etc. And as touching sick persons, Why should we not judge, that the same order and proportion was kept in sending the Sacrament to them at their houses, as was observed when sick persons came to the Communion Table or Altar in the Church. Jesuit. Thirdly, it was an ancient custom in the Grecian Church, to consecrate the holy Eucharist on saturdays and Conc. Laodicen. Conc. 49. & Trullan. Can. 52. Sundays; and on the other days of the week to communicate Ex praesanctificatis, of the praesanctified form sy hat is consecrated on the Saturday or Sunday before. Now it is not probable, that they did consecrate Wine to endure five or six days long, for fear (specially in such hot Countries) the same should grow sour. Wherefore for the most part they did communicate under one kind. ANSWER. The Office of the Greek Church, making mention of the Sacramental signs, consecrated or sanctified before they were used a 〈◊〉. Graec. Biblioth. sanct. Patr. Sacerdotem postquam sanctificaverit Panen, infundere Vinum in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & A quam, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. , nameth Bread and Wine: For thus we read in the same, That after the Priest hath sanctified the Bread, he poureth Wine and Water into the sacred Cup, and rehearseth the accustomed words, etc. And the Liturgy Praesanctificatorum, of the Presanctified signs, according to Genebrards' a Genebrard. Liturg. Myst. 〈◊〉 consecrat. ex Cretensi codice. Ecce immaculatum corpus ipsius, & 〈◊〉. Sanguis hac nunc hora ingredientia in hac mensa mystica sunt, qua multitudine celestis exercitus invisibiliter 〈◊〉, quorum communionem innocuam tribue nobis. 〈◊〉, speaketh both of the body and of the blood presented in the mystical signs. It appeareth also by Balsamon b Balsam. Synod. 6. can. 52. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , upon the 52 Canon of the Synod in Trullo, that both the Elements were consecrated at least upon two several days in the week; and Baronius c Baron. Anno. 404. Haeretici negant asseruandam 〈◊〉 Sacratissimam Eucharistiam, quam videmus non sub specie panis tantum, sed etiam sub specie vini olim recondi consuevisse. Habes id quoque probatum authoritate B. Gregorij, dum ait, in navi portasse navigantes corpus & sanguinem Christi. Dialog. li. 3. ca 36. acknowledgeth, That in ancient times the Eucharist was reserved in both the kinds: now if it was consecrated and reserved in both kinds, Why should we imagine, that it was not delivered and received in both kinds? Jesuit. Fourthly, the Manichees lived in Rome, and other places, Leo. Serm. 4. d. Quadrag. shrouding themselves among Catholics, went to their Churches, received the Sacrament publicly with them, under the sole form of Bread: and yet they were not noted, nor there discerned from Catholics. A manifest sign that Communion under one kind was publicly in the Church permitted at the least upon some just causes that might be pretended For how could the Manichees still refusing the Cup, have been hidden among these ancient Christians, if they had been persuaded, as now Protestants, that receiving under one kind only is a Sacrilege? If one in the Church of England should refuse the Cup but once in a public Communion in the Church, would he not be incontinently noted? ANSWER. The holy Eucharist in the days of Pope Leo the first was administered in both kinds, and Romists could never as yet produce any one sufficient testimony or example, that so much as any one congregation of Christians in ancient times received in the open Church under one kind. And although the place objected out of Leo d Leo. d. Quadrages. serm. 4. pa. 173. o'er 〈◊〉 Christi corpus 〈◊〉, sanguinem autem Redemptor is nostri haurire, omnino 〈◊〉. doth in special concern the Manichees, yet it showeth plainly that the present doctrine and practice of the Roman Church, is not consonant to the ancient practice of the same Church. Nevertheless, our perverse Adversary argueth against us out of this place of Leo, saying, That if the Communion had not sometimes been administered under one kind, the Manichees practise, in refusing the Cup, could not have passed unmarked, but must necessarily have been observed. I answer: First, The Manichees were espied, and discovered; otherwise, how could the Pope reprove their practice. Secondly, Vasques a Vasq. in 3. Disp. 216. c. 4. n. 42. ut se Catholicos simularent, ita sumebant Calicem, ut sanguinem non 〈◊〉 in altera specie. the jesuit saith, That these Heretics received the Cup into their hand, but drank no Wine; and among a multitude of Communicants, some few might hold the Cup to their mouth, and make show of drinking, and yet receive no Wine. Jesuit. The last Argument, is practise of the Apostles, that is, of the first Christians under them, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, Erant perseverantes in Doctrina Acts 2. 42. Apostolorum, & communicatione, fractionis Panis, & Orationibus, speaking of sucred Eucharistical Bread, the taking whereof was joined with Prayer, which unto the newly baptised was strait given after Baptism: and yet there is no mention of Wine. So that Protestants, if they will have these Christians to have Wine, they must out of their own liberality, by way of interpretation, bestow it upon them, seeing the words of the Text do not afford it them. To this Apostolical practice, we may add the example of Christ, who gave to his two Disciples in Emaus, the Sacrament under the sole form of Luc. 24. Bread. That the Bread Christ gave, was Eucharistical, Accepit Panem & benedixit & fregit. August. lib. 3. d. Consensu Euangel. cap. 25. Bede & Theoph. in Luc. Hieron. in Epitaph. Paulae Isych. lib. 2. in Levit. cap. 9 and consecrated, the words of the Text insinuate, some learned Fathers affirm, and the miraculous effect of opening their eyes to know Christ, and their return to Jerusalem and the Church of the Apostles in all haste, confirms it. That they received at the hands of Christ the Sacrament under one only kind of Bread, is evident by the context of the Holy Narration, which saith, That upon our Saviour's breaking, and giving them Bread, they knew him, and be strait vanished out of their sight. So that here also, if Protestants will have Wine given to these Disciples, they must by the superabundance thereof, in their Expositions, supply 〈◊〉 want thereof in Scripture; yea, the Scripture in this place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 capable of that Exposition, the Apostles acknowledging of Christ in the very fraction, and giving of Bread, and our 〈◊〉 departing in the same moment, leaves not-time for him, to give them Wine after the Bread. ANSWER. Your last Argument is poor and drowsy, and perhaps you imagine, that at this your Feast (if yet we may be said to drink 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, sine Calais) we have drunk well before, and therefore in the conclusion, you give us that which is worst, john 2. 8. The Antecedent, or leading part of your Argument, is dubious, and the Consequence also is infirm. First, you are not able to prove out of the Texts, Act. 2.42. or Luk. 24.30. that Christ and his Apostles in those places, administered the holy Communion: for there may be Prayer and breaking of Bread, and yet no Sacrament, 1. Tim. 4. v. 3.4.5. Also the place, Act. 2. 42. may be understood of dealing bread by Eleemosinarie dole to the poor. And although some of the Fathers apply these Scriptures to the Eucharist, according to the mystical sense, yet other Fathers are contrary a Greg. Euang. Hom. 23. 〈◊〉. in Act. 2. 42. Eusebius Emissen. ho. 2. Feria. 2. Pasch. , yea many Pontificians b Lyra. in Luc. 24. Accepit panem, benedixit ac fregit, & porrigebat illis. Sicut consueverat facere ante passionem: sic enim frangebat panem, ac si scinderetur cum cultello. Dionis. Carth. in Luc. 24. Accepit panem & benedixit, non tamen in suum corpus convertit, sicut in 〈◊〉, sed ut moris est benedicere cibum, in quo instruxit nos, ut ante refectionem benedicatur cibus & potus. Caietan. sup. Luc. 24. Quatuor actiones jesu circa panem describuntur, acceptio, benedictio, fractio, & porrectio, & tamen in sola fractione agnitus dicitur inferius: ut intelligamus, fractionem 〈◊〉 miraculosam, hoc est quod frangebat panem manibus, sicut alij incidunt cultello. Solitum autem hunc frangendi modum 〈◊〉 credimus, & propterea Discipuli ex consueto jesu modo, cognoverunt eum. Gagneus. sup. Luc. 24. Cum viderunt assuetam panis 〈◊〉, agnoverunt eum. 〈◊〉. Harm. cap. 146. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. to. 4. lib. 8. cap. 12. Respondet jansenius & alij, Christum non prebuisse his duobus Discipulis 〈◊〉, erantenim imparati, neque tunc noverant quid esset Eucharistia, non enim 〈◊〉 extremae interfuerant. Willielm. Wids. c. Wiclif. High dico quod non habetur ex textu, vel exglossa, Luc. 24. vel per antiquos doctores, quod ille panis quem Christus fregit post resurrectionem, fuit consecratus vel Sacramentalis. 〈◊〉. d. Sacram. d. Euchar. Disp. 4. q. 2. p. 3. Ad factum Christi in castello Emaus responderi potest, primo, non constare, Christum confecisse corpus suum, cum Discipuli non essent dispositi, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in fide. expound these Texts, of common food or bread, and not of the Eucharist. But if the first Exposition were true, yet Communion in one kind cannot be hence inferred; for either the words are proper, or figurative. If Romists will press them, according to the letter, than no wine at all was then used by Christ, Luc. 24. or by the Apostles, Act. 2. and consequently, it followeth, , 〈◊〉 . If they will yield, that there is a 〈◊〉 in the words, then, even as when we read in sundry places of Scripture, That people meet together to 31.34 〈◊〉. 2.10, we understand by a part of the 〈◊〉, the whole; not 〈◊〉 wine, or other in the 〈◊〉 Texts, making literal mention of bread only, must be understood, as mentioning a part of the spiritual Feast for the whole. Neither is there any force in the Argument ensuing, which is, Their eyes were opened to know Christ, Ergo; They 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bread; for the eyes may be opened by Miracle, Grace, and by Donation of Faith, Act. 10. 14. without receiving Eucharistical Bread. The holy Eucharist, is not a sole or 〈◊〉 cause of grace, 〈◊〉 there are other causes and means beside: and therefore the Illation is inconsequent, 〈◊〉 an effect which may proceed from diverse and sundry 〈◊〉 to one special and determinate efficient cause. But the Adversary proceedeth, saying, That after breaking of bread, Christ strait way vanished out of their sight, and they hastened to Jerusalem with all speed. Therefore there was no space after receiving the Bread, for the sumption of Wine. The Reader may perceive by these, and other such like writhings of the Text, upon what foundation Popish Faith is builded. First, The word, Strait ways, is not in the Narration, Luke 24. Secondly, The receiving a small quantity of Wine, could neither hinder our Saviour's expedition, nor the Apostles journey to jerusalem. Thirdly, How appeareth it, that receiving Eucharistical Bread, made the Disciples more agile in body, and prompter in mind to travel to Jerusalem: for two Disciples ran to the Sepulchre, with as much alacrity and expedition as was possible, 〈◊〉. 20. 4, and yet they had at that present time received no Eucharistical Bread. Yea, on the contrary, the Apostles of Christ, after the receiving of the holy Eucharist, do all of them fly away and forsake their Master, Math. 26.58. This collection therefore, The Disciples hasted to Jerusalem, Ergo, They received the Eucharist, is dissolute, and not much unlike that of Pope Boniface the eight, God said, Let us make two great lights, Ergo, The Pope is greater than the Emperor. Jesuit. These be the Warrants that Communion under one kind hath, being the greatest that may be: whereby appears, that the Roman Church is furnished with all kind of proof in this point, in which she doth seem to her Adversaries to be most forsaken of Antiquity. Now supposing Communion under one kind to be good and lawful, That the Church could prescribe it, and, That she had just reasons to prescribe it, I will let pass without proof, as a thing not doubted of by your Majesty's excellent wisdom. ANSWER. All your warrants for half Communions, are mere Impostures, and audacious words and figments, Commota semel, & excussa mens, ei seruit à quo impellitur (saith Seneca,) The mind which is disordered and put out of frame, becomes a slave to that which impells it. This is verified in you, you want all kinds of just defence for your Sacrilege in mangling and dismembering the holy Communion, yet having once overshot yourselves, and become slaves to your own conceit, of not being subject to error, Litigare magis quam sanari vultis, you choose rather to make war with heaven, than to retract your error; for they war with heaven, which oppose the Testament of the Son of God, the Tradition of the holy Apostles, and the practice of the Primitive Church: and this is your case, although you list not to see it, or rather seeing, to acknowledge it. THE EIGHT POINT. WORKS OF SUPERERROGATION SPECIALLY WITH REFERENCE TO THE TREASURE OF THE CHURCH. Jesuit. IT is hard, if not impossible, to give satisfaction in this point, unto any that is not aforehand persuaded of the Catholic Doctrine of Merit. ANSWER. THe word or name of merit is taken in two notions: First, properly, strictly, and univocally, Ro. 4.4. Deu. 7.10. Secondly, improperly, largely, and equivocally, Eccle. 16.15. The first is termed by Schoolmen, Merit of Condignity a Favent. 3. sent. d. 18. Disp. 42. ca 2. Meritum. d. Condigno est aliquid, cui ex rigore iustitiae, debetur merces & praemium, 〈◊〉 quod si illi non reddatur fit iniuria. Scot 1. Dist. 17. q. 1. ar. 1. Caiet. 1.2. q. 114. ar. 4. Andrad. Orth. Explicat. lib. 6. pag. 599. Ipsum congrui nomen indicat, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 meritum esse, cui 〈◊〉 iure debeatur, sed quod Dei misericordia, magis quam iustitia nititur. Bellarm. d. Iust. li. 1. cap. 21. Fatemur omni merito respondere mercedem, sed sicut meritum quoddam esse dicimus ex congruo, ità mercedem quandam esse dicimus ex congruo, quae magis debeatur ex gratia quam ex iustitia. Vega. d. justif. lib. 8. cap. 10. Quandoquè strictè & in rigore hoc verbum capitur, & meritum appellatur actio libera, cui debetur ex iustitia praemium aliquod, seu merces. A lias vero meritum, largè dicitur, actio libera acceptata ad aliquod praemium, vel ex debito, vel ex pacto, seu conditione vel conventione, aut simplicitèr ex gratia, & generalitèr quodcunquè opus, quod impetrat apud aliquem mercedem aliquam, vel praemium, & causa est collationis ipsius. ; and the latter Merit of Impetration or of Congruity. If the jesuit maintain Merit, according to the first acceptation, than out of all question the Doctrine of Merit is not Catholic a Read before pag. 172. Durand. 2. d. 27. q. 2. nu. 12. Quod redditur potius ex liberalitate dantis, quam ex debito operis, non cadit sub merito de condigno strictè & propriè accepto, ut expositum est. Sed quicquid à Deo accipimus, siuè sit gratia siuè 〈◊〉 gloria, siuè bonum temporale, vel spirituale (praecedente in nobis proptèr hoc quocunque bono opere) potius & principalius accipimus ex liberalitate Dei, quam reddatur ex debito operis, ergo nihil penitus cadit sub merito de condigno sic accepto. . If he maintain Merit, according to the second notion, than Pope's pardons, and works of Supererogation cannot be inferred or concluded from the doctrine of Merit; for how can that action be applied to other persons as satisfactory, which is rewarded by God, of his free favour and grace, above the desert of the person himself which hath wrought it? JESVITS §. 1. The Doctrine of Merit declared. THis Doctrine is much misliked by Protestants as proud and arrogant, yet not so much misliked as misunderstood, their dislike growing from misconstruction thereof. For Catholics hold that no work is meritorious with God of it own nature: but to make the same meritorious, many graces are required, and those most divine and excellent, particularly these seven. ANSWER. CAn any thing be more arrogant and foolish, than for a miserable beggar and sinner a Aug Ep. 106. Pauperego & dolens, qui adhuc terrenae imaginis squalore concretus sum, & plus de primo quam de secundo Adam carnis sensibus & terrenis actibus refero, etc. Jdem. d. Civit. Dei, lib. 19 ca 27. Ipsa quoquè nostra iustitia quamuis vera sit proptèr veri boni finem ad quem refertur, tamen tanta est in hac vita, ut potius peccatorum remissione 〈◊〉, quam perfectione virtutum. , whose justice is rather in remission of sins, than in perfection of virtues b Rhem. Annot Heb. 6. n. 4. These words make it most clear to all not blinded in pride and contention, that good works be meritorious, and the very cause of salvation, so far that God should be unjust if he rendered not heaven for the same. Altisiod. sum. li. 3. tr. 12. q. 2. Mereri de condigno est facere de debito debitum, vel de debito magis debitum, ità quod iniustè agitur cum eo nisi reddatur ei quod meruit, Ergo, Deus iniustè ageret cum eo, nisi reddatur ei quod meruit. Bell. d. Iust. li. 5. c. 16. Res. Non esse temerarium nec blasphemum sed pium & sanctum dicere, Deum fore iniustum si non seruaret promissa. , to maintain that God should be unjust, if he rendered not heaven to man's good works? And yet this proud Doctrine is delivered by the Rhemists, and by some other Romists. But our Adversary laboureth by distinction, to salve this Pharisaisme, saying, Good works are not meritorious by their nature, but by many graces, etc. I answer, If he should maintain, that Good works merit justification or perseverance, not by their Nature, but by Grace, this distinction would not free his Tenet from error a Ibid. cap. 12. 21.22. : so likewise it is erroneus to maintain that Good works merit glory by Grace; for that which is of Merit, is not of Grace b Andrad. Orthod. Explic. lib. 6. pag. 518. Paulus cum demonstrare statuit Abraham fide fuisse instificatum, & non ex operibus, hac una potissimum id ratione efficit, ei qui operatur merces non imputatur secundum gratiam, sed secundum debitum, Ergo si iustitia Abrahae esset operum, illius merces, debitum sanè potius, quam gratia dici debuisset. but of debt. And divine grace doth not elevate virtuous actions, by adding unto them a force of meriting c Gregor. Arimin. 2. Sent. d. 17. q. 1. ar. 2. , but only by making them susceptible of a free and liberal reward, and by placing them in the state and order of causes impetrant, or dispositive conditions. S. Paul saith, Rom. 8.18 d Durand. 2. d. 27. q. 2. nu. 3. Inter opera meritoria maximè videntur esse meritoriae Sanctorum passiones, & tamen illae non sunt meritoriae de condigno. Dicitenim Apostolus ad Romanos. 8. Non sunt condignae passiones huius temporis ad futuram gloriam. . I think that the Passions of this time are not condign to the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us. First, the passions here expressed, were Martyredomes sanctified by grace, Phil. 1.29. and spiritual sacrifices of a sweet smelling savour, 2. Tim. 4. 6. most precious in God's sight, Psalm. 116.15. Secondly, Condignity or Worthiness, equal in desert or value to the reward of glory, is denied unto them: but where there is inequality between the work and the reward, and where the reward is of Grace, and the work of debt, there is found no proportion of Condignity. Origen e Origen. Sup. Rom. 4. Vix mihi suadeoullum opus esse posse, quod ex debito remunerationem Dei deposcat. Chrys. in 2. Cor. Hom. 23. Deus hoc in mercedem imputat; non quod iustis nobis debeat, sed quod misericors est, & pius. saith, I can hardly persuade myself, that there can be any good work deserving (as a debt) the reward of God. S. Augustine f August. tr. 3. in joh. Non pro merito quidem accipies vitam aeternam, sed tantum pro gratia. , Thou shall not receive eternal life for thy Merit, but only for Grace. Andrea's Vega g Vega. Opusc. quest. 4. saith, That many Schoolmen, to wit, Gregory Arimine h Gregor. 〈◊〉. 1. d. 17. q. 1. ar. 2. , Durand i Durand. 1. d. 17. q. 2. & lib. 2. d. 27. q. 2. & lib. 3. d. 18. q. 2. , Marsilius k Marsil. 2. q. 18. ar. 3. , Waldensis l Waldensis. d. Sacram. tit. 1. cap. 7. nu. 5. Pelagiana Haeresis quod Deus secundum mensuram operum meritoriorum praemiabit hominem sic merentem, etc. Reputo igitur saniorem Theologum, fideliorem Catholicum, & Scriptures Sanctis magis concordem, qui tale meritum simplicitèr abnegat, & cum modificatione Apostoli & Scripturarum concedit, quia simplicitèr quis non meretur regnum Coelorum sed ex gratia Dei, aut voluntate largitoris. , Burgensis m 〈◊〉 sup. Psal. 35. , Eckius n Eckius. Centur. d. Praedest. , etc. reject the Romish doctrine of merit of Condignity, Dionysius Cistertiensis doth the like a Dionis. Cistert. lib. 3. Sent. Dift. 1. q. 2. ar. 3. & li. 4. d. 43. q. 3. ar. 1. Cum dicitur iste puta Socrates 〈◊〉 vitam aeternam, duplex potest esse Sensus, primus. Illi ex valore operis sui debetur illud praemium ultimum, scz. vita 〈◊〉. Secundus, Socrates meretur vitam aeternam, id est, Socrati gratiose praeparavit Deus, non solum opus quod vocatur meritum, sed etiam pro illo opere praeparavit 〈◊〉 (licet merè 〈◊〉) aliud 〈◊〉 long melius, 〈◊〉 vitam aeternam, sicut dicit Apostolus ad Rom. 6. Gratia Dei vita aeterna, Quià non solum secundum opera sed secundum propositum, & gratiam quae est data nobis in Christo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nos 〈◊〉. 2. Tim. 1. . Brulifer saith b Brulif. 2. d. 27. q. 6. 〈◊〉 purus viator mereri coelestem gloriam de condigno, 〈◊〉 meretur tantum meretur illam de congruo. Et ista opinio est valde devota & fulcitur multis authoritatibus. , It is a very devout opinion established by many authorities, that no man in this life (how pure and perfect soever) can merit celestial glory by 〈◊〉, but that, by 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c 〈◊〉. d. lib. Arbit. lib. 5. pag. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d 〈◊〉. in Math. 20 voca 〈◊〉, etc. 〈◊〉 of e 〈◊〉. Advert in 8. to. Aug. 〈◊〉. 13. Scotus negat meritum de condigno, & tenet quod ultra gratiam tale opus acceptaturad gloriam. 〈◊〉. And 〈◊〉 f 〈◊〉. in 1. 2. 〈◊〉. 213. cap. 6. nu. 31. Qui 〈◊〉 equum pro obsequio, 〈◊〉 pecunia 〈◊〉 valoris, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praetium & valorem 〈◊〉, aut 〈◊〉, pro quo illum esset pollicitus, sed eodem modo 〈◊〉 quod daretur ex promissione illud minimum praetium & , & 〈◊〉 non intercessissent. the jesuit 〈◊〉. That the Roman Church hath not hitherto determined expressly the question of 〈◊〉 of condignity: and the same author, with others g 〈◊〉. in 1. 2. q. 114. ar. 10. Meritum de congruo, non est meritum simplicitèr sed impropriè & secundum quid, 〈◊〉 Orth. Explic. lib. 6. pag 509. Vasques. 1. 2 disp. 214. ca 5. h. 26. 〈◊〉. d Praedest. & Reprob. § 3. pag. 299. Sicut si magnus Monarcha alicui propter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 promitteret & daret statum Regium, quis non dixerit hoc totum esse gratiam Principis? 〈◊〉; That Merit of congruity is not truly, properly, & simply Merit, but 〈◊〉 quid & nomine tenus, comparatively, and in appellation only. And they deliver a good reason of this assertion: for if for a small labour and service, or if for a service and obedience due of right by other titles, a liberal and immense gift shall be bestowed, there is no Merit in the receiver, but the reward is merely of 〈◊〉 in the bestower: So likewise when God Almighty bestoweth upon his children an incomparable weight of glory h 〈◊〉. 1. d. 17. ar. 1. Posito tali habitu (Charitatis) adhuc meritum est multo infirmius & minus 〈◊〉 quam 〈◊〉, nulla autem iustitia nec commutativa, nec distributiva exigunt, ut pro minori bono reddatur magis bonum. , for a small and imperfect service, and for that which is due unto himself in right, by many other titles; this reward is not a wages of debt, neither is God obliged in justice i Durand. 2. d. 27. q. 2. n. 18. Qui totum habet ab alio, totum ei debet, nec potest eum debitorem constituere quod requiritur ad meritum de condigno. to bestow it, but it is a reward of Grace and bounty, and man is indebted to God for promising and bestowing the same. Now from hence it is apparent that the doctrine of Merit (taken properly k Durand. ibid. Meritum hominis apud Deum non potest esse meritum simplicitèr, de condigno sed 〈◊〉 secundum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinae ordinationis: 〈◊〉 scilicet, ut homo id consequatur à Deo per suam operationem quasi praemium vel 〈◊〉. ) is not Catholic or infallible, and therefore if Pope's pardons depend upon the same, a worm-eaten post is made the pillar and supporter of this moth-eaten rag of supererogation, wherewith the Romists would gaily clothe their children. Jesuit The first grace is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, because God out of his own 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and his actions 〈◊〉 a without which Ordination, no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or correspondency with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ANSWER. By Divine preordination, virtuous actions have reference (not of desert, but of disposition, and instrumental efficiency or manuduction) to beatitude, or the last supernatural 〈◊〉 and according to Saint Bernard a 〈◊〉. d. lib. 〈◊〉. Si 〈◊〉 appellentur ca quae 〈◊〉 nostra merita, . , they are Via regni, non causa regnandi, The way to the heavenly Kingdom, but not the (meritorious) cause of reigning. Jesuit. The second, is the Grace of Redemption by Christ jesus, without whom, we and our works are defiled, we being by nature the children of wrath, and should be so still, had not he by his Passion and Death appeased God, 〈◊〉 us the inestimable treasure of his merits: so that, In illo, benedixit nos Deus omni benedictione spirituali Ephes. 1. 3. & 7. in caelestibus, in quo habemus redemptionem per sanguinem eius, secundum divitias gratiae suae quae superabundavit in nobis. ANSWER. The grace of Redemption appeaseth God, and purchased for us the fruit and inestimable benefit of Christ's Merits, both for remission of our sins, and for our Sanctification. But that Christ's Merits make man's actions meritorious, and that his satisfaction enableth man to satisfy God's justice b 〈◊〉. d. Colonia. Quest. Magistral. q. 363. Satisfactio est redditio eius quod debetur secundum iustitiam. , is all one, as if one would infer, saying, Christ jesus hath redeemed us by his Passion, and he communicates to us the grace of Redemption, Ergo, Christ jesus hath made us Redeemers. Jesuit. The third is grace of Adoption in Baptism, whereby souls are supernaturally beautified by participation of the divine nature; whence a triple dignity redounds unto Works, one by the grace of Adoption from God the Father, who in respect of this Adoption regards good works as the works of his children; Another is from God the holy Ghost dwelling in us, by whom Good works are honoured, as by the principal Author of them, so that he, rather than we, doth the works; who therefore is said to pray for us with Rom. 8. 26. unspeakable groans: The last dignity is from God the Son, Christ jefus, whose members we are made by Grace; so that the works we do, be reputed not so much ours as his, as the work of the particular members is attributed principally unto the head. ANSWER. By the grace of Regeneration and Adoption, the divine Image is imprinted in the soul, 2. Pet. 1. 4. Ephes. 4.24. and a dignity of goodness a Bellar. d. justif. li. 1. ca 21. Speaking of the merit of congruity or impetration. 〈◊〉 meritum inchoatum & imperfectum, & habet aliquam dignitatem & proportionem ad suum finem, sed non tantam quantam requirit meritum de condigno. redounds to virtuous actions from the three persons of the Trinity. But hence it followeth not, Ergo, Good works merit in condignity: for although Christ jesus and the holy Ghost work in righteous People, and the virtuous deeds of these Persons are in some sort reputed the works of Christ; yet because the divine Persons work in them according to a certain degree, and measure of grace, and not according to the fullness of Power, and the virtuous deeds of men, are attributed to Christ, not as the cause Elicitive b Vasq. 1. 2. Disp. 214. ca 7. 〈◊〉. 44. Cum opera nostra non alia ratione tribuantur Christo, tanquam capiti mystico, nisi quia ab eo accipimus gratiam, iustitiam & auxilia omnia, nequaquam autem sicut elicienti illa, fit ut minime accipiant dignitatem, neque dignitatis incrementum à Christo, sed solum à persona ipsa eliciente suam 〈◊〉 iustitiae & Sanctitatis. Alioquin 〈◊〉 nostra opera esse infiniti valoris, etc. Tapia. d. Incarnate. Christ. q. 21. ar. 10. Vt recte docet Caietanus quamuis ea satisfactio capiti Christo innitatur; non tamen recipit eandem cum satisfactione Christi aequalitatem, sicut imperfecta participant quidem a perfectis esse, & posse, non tamen illis aequantur Nec veto digitus, quamuis 〈◊〉 influxum à 〈◊〉, plenam eius vim & perfectionem recipit, & quidem si satisfactio hominis iusti ut est membrum Christi, est perfecta simpliciter, & 〈◊〉, & omnis 〈◊〉 est membrum Christi: Sequitur quod cuiuseunque hominis iusti 〈◊〉 est in 〈◊〉 perfecta, & quidem pro omni culpa, & poena quod est vehementer falsum. 〈◊〉 ergo debemus quod aliud est aliquam operationem 〈◊〉 Deo, ut personae propriae & non mystice loquendo, earum operatio erit infiniti valoris, & 〈◊〉 ac meriti: aliud vero & long diversum est aliquam operationem uniri Deo ut causae universali, atque personae mysticae. Tunc enim 〈◊〉 operatio pro 〈◊〉 influentis 〈◊〉 vim & efficaciam. , or as immediately producing them, it is inconsequent to say: Good works are produced originally by the holy Ghost, and they are reputed Christ's works, in regard of Influence, Approbation, and Acceptation, Ergo, they have the total Perfection (to wit, of meriting and satisfying) which Christ's own Personal works had. The foot of man is united to the head, and the head maketh influence into it: nevertheless the whole perfection of the head, is not in the foot, and the foot doth not understand, because the head understandeth; nor seeth, heareth, or smelleth, although these senses are 〈◊〉 in the head. So likewise every just person is united to Christ, and is spiritually sanctified by the Grace of the holy Ghost: but this motion and influence is finite in itself, and limited to the estate of our weakness, 〈◊〉 distributed according to the necessity of the Receiver, and the wisdom and good pleasure of the mover, and therefore it imparteth not the whole virtue of the mover, but so much only as is necessary and convenient for the Subject to receive: but it is not necessary for men to receive power of meriting properly, and it is most honourable for God to bestow life eternal freely. Jesuit. The fourth is Grace praevenient, whereby God stirreth up in us thoughts and affections to good and pious works: and grace adiwant to help us in the performance of these desires, making our free will produce works that are supernatural in their very substance, and above the capacity of man. ANSWER. The free will of man, by the power of praevenient, adiwant, and subsequent Grace, produceth works which are supernatural in their kind: but yet this free will being Principium vulneratum b Bonaventur. 3. d. 20. q. 4. Vicium humanae originis nunquam seperatur a carne peccati. , an original root, or beginning of Action, which was wounded with sin, and is in this life cured only in part, it always retaineth some remainders of inborn infirmity, and consequently the good Actions produced by it, attain not the fullness of Perfection, but there is found in them some haereditary stain or limping c Greg. in 2. Psa. Penitential. Sancti viri licet magnis iam virtutibus polleant habent tamen adhuc de culpae obscuritate quod 〈◊〉, & licet iam magna vitae claritate luceant, aliquas tamen peccati nebulas velut quasdam noctis reliquias trahunt. Hieron. in 〈◊〉. 13. Aug. Enchir. ca 64. Bernard. in 〈◊〉. Omnium 〈◊〉. Ser. 1. Vega. d. 〈◊〉. li. 11. ca 〈◊〉. Cassal. d. Quadrup. Iust. li. 3. ca 23 Read before Pag. 171. 172. Tertul. d. Anima. ca 23. In optimis nonnihil est pessimi, solus enim Deus sine peccato. . Rom. 7. 18, 19, 20.23. Gal. 5. 17. Heb. 12. 1. Hence it followeth, that just men cannot challenge a reward by merit or debt, because they never yield God his full and perfect due a Chrys. in Genes. ho. 22. Talis est spiritualis debiti natura, quod quanto magis 〈◊〉, tanto 〈◊〉 debetur. : for it is his due to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any sin adherent, but righteous Persons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. jam. 3.2. Therefore they can challenge nothing of Debt, or as 〈◊〉 of God, but only 〈◊〉 with humility upon his bounty and 〈◊〉 b Greg. in 1. 〈◊〉. Poenit. Non de meis meritis confidens, ut me saluum non de meis meritis spero. . Jesuit. The fifth, is the Grace of merciful indulgence, in not 〈◊〉 with us the rigour of his 〈◊〉. For God might wholly require the good work we 〈◊〉 his own, by many 〈◊〉 as by the 〈◊〉 of justice, being works of his 〈◊〉; by title of Religion, being works of his Creatures; by title of gratitude, as being works of persons infinitely obliged unto him. By which Titles, if God did exact upon works with uttermost rigour, no goodness would be left in them to be offered for the meriting of heaven. But his infinite benignity remitting this rigour, moved thereunto through the merits of Christ, is content that we make use of our good works for the gaining of glory, and doth not exact them wholly and totally as otherwise due. ANSWER. The Lord is content that we make use of our good works for the attaining and increase of glory. Mat. 25.16.2. Cor. 9 6. Gal. 6.8. And he requireth them also for many other good ends, joh. 15.8. 2. Pet. 1.10. But they may be used and referred to life eternal, as dispositions and causes impetrant, and not as causes properly or condignly meritorious. Also it is remarkable, how the jesuit in this section, hath set fire on his own house: for if we we owe good works unto God by the titles of justice, Religion, and Gratitude, What peeping hole I pray you is left for aspiring Merit to creep in at? The true application whereof is, That if God exact according to his due, then (upon the Adversaries own ground) there is no Merit. But if he do not in rigour exact, than this indulgence and not exacting, for Christ's sake, taketh away all plea of Merit from us, and casteth the Merit upon Christ alone. Jesuit. The sixth, is the grace of liberal promise, by which he obligeth 〈◊〉 himself to reward the good Works of his children according to the deserv of their goodness. Did not God bind himself by his word in this manner, no work of Saints though never so perfect and excellent, were able to bind 〈◊〉 to reward it, as all 〈◊〉 teach; though some disputation be, whether God's liber all 〈◊〉 supposed, the goodness of the 〈◊〉 concur partially with his promise to oblige him, which is a Disputation of no great moment. ANSWER. First, the promise of God whereby he obligeth himself to 〈◊〉 a benefit to his People upon their obedience, inferreth not desert a Durand. 2. d. 27. q. 2. n. 15. Promissio divina in Scriptures sanctis, non 〈◊〉 in aliquam obligationem, sed 〈◊〉 meram dispositionem 〈◊〉 divinae. 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 non ex debito precedentis operis, sed 〈◊〉 promissione precedente non quidem 〈◊〉 ex merito operis de 〈◊〉 sed solum 〈◊〉 principaliter ex promisso. Bassol. 2. d. 27. ar. 4. Sicut si alicuj promitteretur regnum pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 levaret festucam deberetur 〈◊〉, non ex condignitate actus levandi 〈◊〉, sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 d. 20. q. 1. Quilibet obligatur ex promisso, Deus autem promisserat, etc. 〈◊〉 quod verba Scripturae, etc. non insinuant promissionem ex parte Dei, sed simplicem eius 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 & sic non est ibi aliquod 〈◊〉. or merit on their part, as appear in repentance, whereunto the Lord promiseth mercy, remission of sins, and salvation, and obligeth himself by oath, Ezech. 18.31, 32. & ca 33.11. and yet the benefit conferred is not of Merit, but of Grace. d Greg. Papa Moral. li. 9 ca 27. Si remota pietate discutimur, opus nostrum poena dignum est, quod remunerari praemijs postulamus. God Almighty promised to bestow the land of Canaan upon the Israelites, and he bound himself thereto by oath, Exod. 13. 5. Nevertheless, he gave this good land to them, not for their own merits, but of his free bounty. Deut. 7. v. 7, 8, & chap. 9 5. Secondly, it is false, that God hath obliged himself by promise to reward the good Works of his children according to the desert of their goodness; for he rewardeth them according to his own bounty b 〈◊〉. Quod. lib. 17. 〈◊〉. 2. Talis dignitas in Actu nihil est nisi acceptatio passiva, voluntatis divinae. , but not according to their own defert, yea he rewardeth above desert c Greg. Arimin. 1. d. 17. q. 1. ar. 2. Huic etiam concordat commune dictum Doctorum dicentium quod Deus praemiat 〈◊〉 condignum. , and in part contrary to desert, Ps. 103.10. Thirdly, the disputation of Schoolmen, whether Gods liberal promise supposed, the goodness of the work concur partially with the divine promise to oblige God, is of so great moment, that Vasques the jesuit saith e Vasques 1. 2. Disp. 214. c. 5. n. 23. Doctores, etc. bonis operibus secundum se dignitatem negantes, totam dignitarem nostrorum operum referunt in Dei 〈◊〉 & acceptationem per Christi merita, quod quidem nihil aliud est, quam veram & perfectam rationem meriti, solis Christi operibus ascribere. , They which hold the former without teaching the latter, destroy Merit, teaching the same in words, and really denying it. Jesuit. Finally, That Merit attain reward, is required the grace of perseverance: without which, no man is crowned. And though Good works, strengthened with so many supernatur all Excellencies, be good stays of confidence, in themselves considered; yet because we are not sure of our perseverance, no nor altogether certain that we have good Works, adorned with the former perfections; the Catholic Saints of God use not to confide in their Merits past, specially being guilty of diverse daily negligences, but fly to God's mercies, as the Church teacheth us in the Liturgy of the Mass, daily praying, In sanctorum nos consortium non aestimator meriti sed veniae quaesumus largitor admit. ANSWER. Without perseverance, no man can attain the Crown of Glory, Apoc. 2.10. and yet, as perseverance itself is the free gift of God, jerem. 32.40. 1. Cor. 1.8. Phil. 1. 6. so likewise the Crown of Glory, following perseverance, is of Grace, and not of Merit, Rom. 6.23. Secondly, Good works are stays and supporters of confidence a Cyprian. d. oper. & Eleemos. n. 24. Praeclara & divina res est salutaris operatio, solatium grande credentium, securitatis nostrae salubre praesidium, munimentum spei, tutela fidei, medela peccati. Chrys. 〈◊〉. Math. 〈◊〉. 15. Sicut oleum accendit jumen Eucernae: ita & bona opera excitant fidem cordis & daunt confidentiam animae: Idem. in. 2, Cor. Hom. 2. At nos optamus 〈◊〉 benefactis habeas fiduciam. Bernard. in Cant. ser. 3. Quantum crescis in gratiam, tanto dilataris in fiduciam. Greg. Mor. l. 10. c. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 minus iudicem formidat, quanto in bonis actibus solidius stat. , Heb. 3.6. 1. joh. 3.21. Psal. 119. 166. And just men may know that they have Faith and Good works, Esa. 38.3. joh. 29.14. Psal. 119.22, 67, 100, 110, 112, 157, 166. Also they are regenerate, of immortal seed, 1. Pet. 1. 23. And he that is begotten of God, overcometh the world, and keepeth himself, and that wicked One toucheth him not, 1. joh. 5. v. 4. 18. And so by Grace, they are enabled to persevere to the end, Phil. 4.13. joh. 4.14. & 6.37. 2. Thes. 3.3. Thirdly, Although all good Christians are studious of Good works, 1. joh. 3.7. Mat. 7.17. john 15.5. yet no true Catholic Christian glorieth or confideth in his own Merits b Bern. serm. 1. fest. om. sanctor. Quid potest esse omnis iustitia 〈◊〉 coram velut pannus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 districtè iudicetur, iniusta invenietur omnis iustitia nostra & minus habens. 〈◊〉 ergo de peccatis erit, quando ne ipsa quidem per se poterit respondere iustitia? Proprerea 〈◊〉 cum Propheta clamantes, ne intres in 〈◊〉 cum seruo tuo Domine, tota humilitate ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae sola potest saluare animae nostras. , or expecteth salvation for his own deserts. And the reason hereof, is not the uncertainty of his own Sanctification a Aug. Psal. 149. Est quidam modus in conscientia gloriandi, ut noveris fidem tuam esse sinceram, noveris spem tuam esse certain noveris charitatem tuam esse sine simulatione. , but a true understanding of his own 〈◊〉, to Merit condignly at God's hand, and of his own unworthiness (even supposing the state of Grace, etc.) to receive the Crown of Glory, by any other purchase, than by the free donation and Merit of Christ b Aug. 〈◊〉: lib. 9 cap. 13. Vae etiam 〈◊〉 vitae, si remota misericordia discutias eam, etc. Psal. 142. Noli mecum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudicium Domine Deus mi. 〈◊〉 rectus mihi videar, producis tu de thesauro tuo regulam, . , Luk. 17.10. Rom. 6.23. Psal. 143.2. Jesuit. Did Protestants know that we require all these divine 〈◊〉 to make any work meritorious, did they well also 〈◊〉 how singular and excellent these favours are, they 〈◊〉 not perchance wonder, that Works graced with so many supernatural excellencies, should have some proportion with the heavenly reward. And so dealing with your Majesty; who is well able to ponder these things, I shall without proof pass by this Doctrine, as not particularly belonging to the proposed difficulty. ANSWER. Protestants are not ignorant what Romists require, to make Works meritorious; but withal, they understand that the seven Graces rehearsed by you in this place, are not sufficient to infuse a 〈◊〉 causality or efficiency intothem. c 〈◊〉. 2. d. 27. q. 2. n. 10. Et 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 1. 2. Disp. 214. c. 1. n. 〈◊〉. Eo quod merita & opera 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicantur semen vitae aeternae ac proinde metaphoricè solum dicenda sint 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 ratione nisi 〈◊〉 Deus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut 〈◊〉 vitam 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 3. d. 20. q. 1. Nulla 〈◊〉 obligationis, tenetur Deus cuicunq, 〈◊〉 Ib. q. 2. Hoc est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sibi debitum & debitorem. And some proportion with the heavenly reward, maketh not virtuous actions to be condignly meritorious: for there is proportion of Order, yea, of instrumental causality, and of means to the end, and there is proportion of Equality, or 〈◊〉. The first kind of proportion maketh not the cause or means meritorious, as appeareth in Faith and contrition, in respect of remission of sins; and of Regeneration, 〈◊〉 respect of the heavenly inheritance; and there was some 〈◊〉 between the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the Wilderness , and the land of 〈◊〉, yet the 〈◊〉 travel was not a meritorious cause of their possession of that good Land. His 〈◊〉 therefore, being of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 judgement, is well able to ponder these things, and to discern, that you having delivered as much in substance for your Doctrine of Merit as the matter will bear, yet have in effect said nothing, but that which is refelled by some of your own part, and which is insufficient to demonstrate, That the Roman doctrine of Merit is Catholic. And to conclude this Paragraph, I desire ingenious Readers, not to be abused by the equivocations of Romists, who wilfully pervert the Testimonies of Counsels, and Fathers, to establish the erroneous Doctrine of Merit of condignity: for enteruiewing the places, you shall perceive, that the Fathers frequently applying the word Merit, to virtuous Actions, speak of obtention and impetration, and not of meriting in condignity: yea, as the learned Pontifician Andrea's Vega a Read Vega d. justif. l. 8. c. 6.7.8. And my Defence of my Brother D. john White, pa. 40. & 41. observeth, they often apply the word Merit, to Actions, in which there is neither Merit of condignity nor congruity. Jesuit. Jesuit 2. Merit of Works of Supererogation. WHerefore to come to works of Supererogation; These works, besides the seven aforenamed graces, suppose another singular favour, and stand grounded thereon. This 〈◊〉 is, That God, though 〈◊〉 might, yet he doth not 〈◊〉 require of his Saints and servants, That in his 〈◊〉 they do the uttermost of their forces. He hath prescribed unto men certain Laws and Commandments, which if they keep, he is satisfied; and what they do 〈◊〉 beyond these commanded duties, he receives as a gracious and spontaneous gift. This Divine 〈◊〉 is noted by Saint Chrysostome (Homil. 21. in priorem ad Cor,) and excellently declared in these words, Etenim cum benignus sit Dominus suis praeceptis multum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, potuisset enim si hoc voluisset praeceptum magis intendere & augere & dicere: Qui non perpetuo ieiunat puniatur, qui non exercet virginitatem det paenas, 〈◊〉 words are these only: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Verum 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, si 〈◊〉 indulgere. supplicium, Sednon 〈◊〉 fecit concedens nobis ut 〈◊〉 solum ex iussu sed 〈◊〉 ex libero faciamus arbitrio. ANSWER. God in his bounty and 〈◊〉 mercy, is pleased to accept of his children, true and entire obedience, although the same be less in measure and quantity than his law requireth, and less also than his servants (if they used their uttermost endeavour and force) might perform. S. Chrysostome upon 1. Cor. Hom. 21. affirmeth, That God might have imposed upon man a stricter law, to wit, of perpetual fasting, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, etc. But now, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. He hath 〈◊〉 his precepts with mansuetude, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that we might do many things not only by precept, but also of our own accord. Now from hence you cannot conclude the Romish doctrine of Works of 〈◊〉; for 〈◊〉 the definition, and being of works of Supererogation, two things are required. First, That all be performed and fulfilled which the divine Law commandeth. Secondly, Besides this, that some thing be performed which the divine Law requireth not, either expressly or 〈◊〉. But if 〈◊〉 men have any sin, they perform not all which the 〈◊〉 Law requireth, for every sin is a 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Law, 1. 〈◊〉. 3.4. And although God almighty doth not 〈◊〉 (oras simply necessary to 〈◊〉) exact of his 〈◊〉 and servants, That in every particular work of his service, they do the uttermost of their forces, but accepteth a possible measure and latitude of true and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a August. d. Fid. & Oper. cap. 7. & 14. & contra julian. lib. 4. cap. 3. etc. 2. Epist. Pelag. lib. 3. cap. 5. & d. perf. Iust. Resp. ad Rat. 16. , consisting of Faith and Charity, Gal. 5.6. yet this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not the highest degree of obedience a thing adiaphorous, and of right not due, but serveth, both to declare the riches of God's mercy, in pardoning our offences, and also to humble us before him in the recognition of our unworthiness. S. Bernard b 〈◊〉. serm. 2. Vigil. Natiu. Proptereà mandata sua mandavit custodire 〈◊〉, ut videntes imperfectionem nostram deficere, & non posse impleri quòd debet, fugiamus ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 super 〈◊〉, & qui non possumus in vestitu Innocentiae seu 〈◊〉, apareamus vestiti confession. hath these words: He hath therefore 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 to be observed 〈◊〉, or to the full, that we 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and falling short, and finding that we 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 that which we 〈◊〉, may 〈◊〉 to his mercy, and say, Thy 〈◊〉 is better 〈◊〉 life: and because we are not able to appear in the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉, we may appear in the vesture of Confession. Jesuit. Wherefore the Precept, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy strength, doth not command an entire employment of all our powers on God, with all our uttermost forces; nor that we never love, nor desire, nor think of any thing besides him; nor that all our thoughts and affections be wholly, entirely, and perpetually on him: For this were a thing impossible, and God doth not require of us things impossible, as Scriptures and Fathers teach. This Precept therefore commands a quadruple integrity of divine love. The first Integrity is in respect of ourselves, that we love God wholly and entirely, not only with the outside, but with the inside, even to the bottom of our soul, that is in a word, sincerely. The second Jntegritie is in respect of God, that we love God according to all his Commandments, not leaving any unkept; and so to love God entirely, or with all the heart, is the same as to walk in all his Commaundents. The third Jntegritie, is in regard of the effect of Love, which is to join men in friendship with God, whom we must so love, that there be no breach between God and us, nor we separated from him; which we do so long as we keep his Commandments without 〈◊〉 mortally against them. The fourth Jntegritie is, in respect of time, that we love him entirely, not only for this present life, but also desiring and hoping to see and love him for eternity. ANSWER. We maintain not that the Precept Math. 22.37. Luc. 10.27. obligeth man at all times to an actual employment of all his powers & the forces thereof on God, without conversion to other lawful objects a Aquin. 22. q. 44. ar. 4. ad. 2. Duplicitèr contingit ex toto corde Deum deligere, uno quidem modo in actu, id est, ut totum cor hominis semper actualitèr in Deum feratur, & ista est perfectio patriae: Alio modo, ut habitualitèr totum cor hominis in Deum feratum, etc. : But we 〈◊〉 with S. Augustine b Aug. d. Doctr. Christi, lib. 1. cap. 22. Haec regula dilectionis constituta est, Diliges inquit proximum tuum sicut teipsum: Deum vero ex toto cord, & ex tota ment, ut omnes cogitationes tuas, & 〈◊〉 vitam & intellectum in illum conferas, à quo habes ea ipsa quae confers. cum autem ait toto cord, tota anima, tota ment, nullam, vitae nostrae 〈◊〉, quae recare debiat, & quasi locum dare ut alia re velit frui, sed quicquid aliud 〈◊〉 venerit in animum, illuc rapiatur quo totius dilectionis impetus currit. Nullum extrà se riwlum duci patiatur, cuius derivatione minuatur. 〈◊〉. lib. d. Praef. lust. Resp. ad Rat. 16. cum est adhuc aliquid carnalis concupiscentiae, quod vel continendo frenetur, non omnimodo ex tota anima deligitur Deus. 〈◊〉. in Cant. Serm. 20. Greg. sup. Reg. lib. 3. cap. 1. Bernard. in Cant. Serm. 50. In affectu quis ità se habet ut mandatur. , and other of the Fathers, three things concerning this Precept. First, That it commandeth to esteem, desire, delight in, and to honour God almighty above all things created, and to subject all our faculties, and the forces and operations of the same, to his obedience and service. Secondly, That we ought not to entertain any cogitation, or inordinate motion in our hearts, repugnant to his Law, or to commit any thing contrary to his Commandment. Thirdly, That this Precept obligeth all people to the obedience thereof in this life, for it is the first and greatest moral Precept, Math. 22.38. And Christ our Saviour came not to destroy, but to continue and ratify the Moral law, Math. 5.17. Secondly, Whereas the jesuit saith, God doth not require of us things impossible. I answer, That if he speak of actions and duties simply necessary to salvation, God (as looking on us in Christ, and through the glass of evangelical mercy) requireth not of his children things impossible c Rom. 6. 17. Heb. 11. 33. Gen. 6. 9 Luc. 1. 67. Concil. Arausic. cap. 25. Hocetiàm secundum fidem Catholicam credimus, quod accepta per baptismum gratiae omnes baptisatis, Christo 〈◊〉 & cooperante, quae ad salutem pertinent, possint ac debeant (si fidelitèr laborare voluerint) adimplere. Hieron. Expos. Fid. Cath. & ad. Celant. Epist. 14. Aug. d. Natura & Grat. ca 68 . But if his meaning be either of unregenerate persons, while they are in that state, or of things virtuous and holy, according to their highest perfection, than both Scriptures and Fathers are against him d Rom. 7.18. Phil. 3.12. 〈◊〉. joh. 1. 9 Chrys. d. Paenit. Serm. 8. Hieron. c. Pelag. lib. 2. pag. 130. & sup. jerem cap. 17. Aug. d. Grat. & lib. Arb. ca 16. & d. pecc. mer. & remiss. li. 2. cap. 16. Bernard. Serm. 2. vigil. Notal. Dom. & in Cant. Serm. 50. Ergò mandando impossibilia, etc. . Jesuit. And in this sense S. Augustine, S. Bernard, and other Fathers are to be understood, that say in the Precept, Diliges Aug. d. Spiritu & Litera, ca ult. Bernard. Serm. 50. in Cantica. Deum tuum ex toto corde tuo, is contained the perfection of the life to come, and a perfection impossible to be attained to in this life, to wit, it is contained in the Precept, not as perfection commanded to be practised in this life, but as a perfection to be desired and hoped for in the next: so that he that loves God sincerely from the bottom of his heart, to the keeping of all his Commandments perfectly, without breach of friendship between him and God, having his desires and loves referred with hope unto Eternity; without question, he loveth God with all his heart, soul, and strength. ANSWER. First, If the Precept, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, etc. bind men no further than to an unfeigned or sincere love of God, and the observing of his Commandments without breach of friendship, than it bindeth them not to the shunning of venial sins. But according to S. Augustine a Aug. d. Spir. & Lit. ca 36. Verun etiàm in istis levioribus, etc. , and S. Bernard b Bernard. in Cant. Serm. 50. , it bindeth man to the avoiding of all sin, both venial and mortal. Secondly, These Fathers c August. ibid. Sed ideò nobis hoc etiàm nunc praeceptum est. Idem. Epist. 200. Bernard. Ibidem. Nec laterit praeceptorem praecepti pondus, hominum excedere vires, etc. Ergò mandando impossibilia, non praevaricatores homines constituit, sed humiles, etc. Accipientes quippè mandatum, & sentientes defectum, clamabimus in. 〈◊〉, & miserabitur 〈◊〉 Deus, & sciemus in illa die, quià non ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, sed secundum suam misericordiam, saluos nos fecit. teach expressly, that the Commandment, Math. 22. 37. bindeth men in this life, as a means to humble them, and to provoke them to sue for God's mercy. And if the Adversary reply, That these Fathers say it is a Precept indicative, or significative, what is 〈◊〉 to be done, but not obligant d Stapleton. d. 〈◊〉. lib. 6. ca 10. pa. 190. 〈◊〉. d. Monach. li. 2. ca 13. . I answer, First, it is the first and greatest Commandment of the Moral law, Math. 22.38. but the Moral law, and all the Precepts thereof are perpetually obligant. Secondly, If it bind not, than no temporal pain can succeed the breach thereof e Vasques. d. paenit. disp 94. ar. 1. du. 2. n. 3. Deus 〈◊〉 punit, qui iàm dignus non est poena: Ergò dicendum est illum manner dignum ex se etiàm post iustificationem. ; but just persons which observe other Commandments, undergo temporal pain, Heb. 11. 36.37. Thirdly, S. Augustine affirmeth f Aug. Ep. 29. Quamdiucharitas augeri potest, profecto illud quod minus est quam debet, ex vitio est: ex quo vitio non est iustus in terra, qui 〈◊〉 & non peccet propter quod vitium, si dixcrimus quod peccatum non babemus, mendaces sumus, etc. 〈◊〉 quod etiàm 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 necessarium est nobis dicere, dimitte nobis debita nostra, cum 〈◊〉 omnia dicta, facta, cogitata, dimissa 〈◊〉. Id. d. verb. 〈◊〉. Ser. 2. Id. Ep. 26. ad. Hieron. Propter 〈◊〉 imperfectionis vitium si dixenmus 〈◊〉 non habemus, nos ipsos fallimus, & veritas in nobis non est, profecerimus necessarium est nobis dicere, dimitte nobis debita nostra, cum 〈◊〉 omnia in Baptismo dimissa sunt: ex quo vitio non 〈◊〉 in conspectu 〈◊〉 omnis vivens. , That it is sin in man to 〈◊〉 a less degree of Charity than this law requireth: and that therefore just persons have need to pray perpetually, Forgive us our Trespasses. But if it were indicative, or directive only, and not obligatory, this were not true. JESVITS §. 3. The Fathers taught Works of Supererogation, and proved them by Scripture. But they that love God so perfectly, as they love not only his Commandments, but also his Counsels; not only shun such sins as separate from God, but also such as hinder the perpetual actual love of God. These be they that do more than they are commanded, that is, do works of Supererogation. And if your Majesty call to mind upon how manifold graces this Merit is grounded, you will not, I hope, condemn the same of arrogance, but rather 〈◊〉 it, as being taught by holy Fathers, even in express terms of Supererogation. In proof whereof, I allege these few Testimonies. ANSWER. THey which do more than God hath commanded by his Law, as simply necessarle to salvation, to wit, they which give all their goods to the poor, etc. exceed not herein the highest and strictest measure of Charity, and obedience in this life; for the evangelical Law, commandeth us to be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect, Math. 5.48. by approaching as near towards this Pattern as our humane frailty will permit, and to love, as Christ loved us, Luk. 6.35. Rom. 5.7, 8. And there is a threefold kind of Obligation to God: First, of strict and express Law, common to all persons. Secondly, of particular Precept by extraordinary Revelation, Gen. 22. 2. Thirdly, of Gratitude, whereby (according to Saint Bernard a Bern. Serm. d. Quadrupl. debito. Cum ei donavero, quicquid sum, quicquid possum, nonneistud est sicut stella adsolem, gutta ad flwium, lapis ad montem, granum ad aceruum. ) we are indebted, and owe to the Almighty. Omne quod sumus, & omne quod possumus, Whatsoever we are, and whatsoever we are able to do: Etsi cognovisses tu quam multa, & quam multis, debeas, videres, quam nihil sit quod facis; If man did consider how much he oweth, and to how many, and by how many Titles, he would perceive, all that he doth (or can do) to be And when . Touching the distinction of Precepts, and Counsels a BE. Moreton Appeal. lib. 5. c. 4. Sect. 3. n. 11. Not but that we allow the distinction of Precept, and Counsel. M. Hooker, Eccles. Policy, lib. 2. n. 8. p. 122. BB. Andrew's, c. Apol. Bellar. ca 8. p. 196. Muscul. in 1. Cor. 7. Hiperius, in 1. Cor. 7.25. 〈◊〉. ibid. , I answer, That if according to the Tenet of Fathers b August. Enchirid. ca 121. Greg. Nazianz contr. julian. Orat. 1. Chrys. in Math. Hom. 2. & in Rom. Hom. 14. & in 1. Cor. Hom. 22. , we understand by Counsels, freewill Offerings, or Spontaneous Actions, exceeding that which the ordinary Bond of necessary duty obligeth men unto, and which are acceptable unto God, in respect of their end; the Doctrine of Counsels proveth not works of Supererogation, according to the Romish Tenet. For as I have formerly declared, Supererogation implieth these things: first, a perfect and exact performance of all commanded duties, without omission of any; secondly, a free and voluntary exceeding and transcending all obedience and service, enjoined by Divine Precept. But supposing the perfection of the Divine Law c Aug. in Psalm. 140. Cum in Scriptures sanctis contemplatus fueris normam iustitiae, quantuncunq, profeceris 〈◊〉 te peccatorem. , and presupposing all men to be sinners in part, the former is impossible. And if our Adversaries will be so graceless, as to make any man in this life (except the Holiest of Holyes, 1. Pet. 2.22.) free from sin d August. sup. Psal. 137. timeo ne cum inspexeris, invenies plura peccata, quam merita. Idem, d. Cinit. Dei, lib 14. cap. 9 Sine 〈◊〉 qui vivere se existimat, non id agit ut peccatum non habeat, sed ut veniam non accipiat. Concil. 〈◊〉. ca 6. & 7. , the Apostle enroleth them in the black Book of Damnable Liars, 1. joh. 1. 10. and they may borrow a Ladder with Acesius e Constantin. apud Socrat. Hist. Eccles. lib. 1. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Cyprian d. Oper. & Eleemos. n. 3. Quisquis se inculpatum dixerit, aut superbus, aut stultus est. , the Novatian Heretic, and so climb alone up to Heaven, or indeed rather fall with a breake-necke, down to Hell, Matth. 9 13. For who are more desperately sick, quam qui mentem febribus perdiderunt, than they, which by the Fever of Pride have lost the understanding of their own sinful Condition. Jesuit. Haymo, a learned Expositor of Scripture, living in the 〈◊〉 in Euang. Dom. 14. post 〈◊〉. year 800, thus writeth, Supererogat Stabularius, quando hoc agit Doctor ex voto, quod non accepit ex Praecepto, quod secit Paulus Apostolus, quando 〈◊〉, in cap. 〈◊〉. Luc. ANSWER. You cannot produce one Father, or ancient Doctor, which maintaineth works of Supererogation, to your purpose. Haimo and venerable Bede affirm, That some men do that by Vow, or voluntary choice (to wit, in some particular Actions) which they are not obliged unto by strict Precept; and that at the day of judgement, they themselves (not Souls in Purgatory) shall reap the benefit hereof (to wit, an accessory augmentation of Bliss:) But from a partial Supererogation, to a total and general, it followeth not. For if a man, which is obliged to work eight hours every day, by the space of a month, and that according to a certain perfection of workmanship, should for two or three day's work ten hours, and exceed the manner of workmanship enjoined him, and then again fail other twenty whole days, both in time and manner; it might be said of this man, That he did exceed, or do more work for three days, than was commanded; and yet comparing and conjoining the whole time, and workmanship, he hath done less than was enjoined him. So likewise, a devout person being commanded by the Moral Law to observe all the Commandments, great and small, during his natural life; if he should in some Actions, or circumstances thereof, perform more than is strictly required (upon necessity to Salvation, or by his general Calling) and yet be deficient in many duties enjoined; this man might be said to supererogate in that, wherein he exceeded the Rule: but (because in other passages of his manners, he was a sinner, a Ambros. Apol. David. ca 2. Vnusquisque nostrum per singulas horas, quam multa delinquit? 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Serm. 7. Quis 〈◊〉 ita immunis à culpa, ut in co non 〈◊〉, vel. 〈◊〉 quod arguat, vel 〈◊〉 quod remittat. Basil. li. d. Poenit. Non Angeli sumus, sed homines, et cadimus & resurgimus, idque saepius cadem hora. August. in Psalm. 137. Timeo ne cum 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 peccata quam merita. Chrysost. in Galath. ca 6. sicut aurum, etc. jam. 3.2.) it cannot be truly said, that he hath works of Supererogation, to be laid up in a common Treasury, for the benefit of other people. Jesuit. S. Gregory the Great, in the year 590. alluding to this Greg. 1. 26. Mor. c. 20. term of Supererogating, more than is received, saith: Multi Virginitatis virtute pollent, ut videlicet plus impendant obsequio quam acceperunt praecepto. S. Fulgentius in the year 500 Quid est si quid supererogaveris, Fulgent. Prolog. in lib. contra Monimum. nisi si quid à me magis acceperis? Nam & ipse qui supererogabat, in eo quod non acceperat praeceptum, sed dabat ex charitate Concilium, misericordiam Paulin. Ep. 2. ad Severum. se profitetur utique consecutum. S. Paulinus in the year 400. Hic Samarites Christus red diturus est Beatae Virginitati de innumeris huius boni fructibus, vberes gratias, & immortales Coronas, quia hoc Concilium Praecepto adjiciens, de suo supererogavit. S. Augustine in the same Age, In illis August. lib. 2. 4. Euang. c. 30. (Praeceptis) Dominicis imperat vobis in hijs (Concilijs) si quid amplius supererogaveritis, in redeundo reddet vobis. And again, Stabularius autem Apostolus Idem, ibid. cap. 19 est, duo Denarij duo Praecepta Charitatis, quam per Spiritum secum acceperant Apostoli, ad Euangelizandum caeteris: Quod supererogat autem illud est quod ait. De Virginibus autem Praeceptum 〈◊〉 non habeo, Concilium autem do. And in another August. d. Adulterin. Coniug. lib. 1. cap. 14. Booke, Quae licita sunt, nec ullo Praecepto Domini prohibentur, sed sicut expedit potius tractanda sunt, non praescripto Legis, sed Concilio charitatis: Haec sunt quae amplius supererogantur, saucio qui curandus ad stabulum Samaritani miseratione perductus est. Optatus Milevitanus, in the year 370. Optat. li. 6. c. Parmen. Sed qui saucium commen daverat, se promiserat redditurum quicquid in curam amplius erogasset post impensos duos Denarios, non Praecepta sed Concilium erogat Paulus. Nec impedimentum est voluntati, nec nolentes impellit aut cogit. Qui dederit (inquit) Virginem suam bene facit, & qui non dederit melius facit. Haec sunt verba Concilij: nec sunt ulla Praecepta coniuncta. S. Hierome, Plus amat Christus Hieron. advers. jovin. ca 7. li. 1. Virgines, quia sponte tribuunt quod sibi non fuerat impetratum, maiorisque gratiae est offerre quod non debeas, quam reddere quod exigaris. S. Chrysostome; Chrysoft. Hom. 8. d. Poenit. Nequaquam Dominum incuses haud mandat impossibilia, multi rpsa superant mandata. S. Gregory Nazianzen; Greg. Nazianzen. Orat. 3. In legibus noftris alia parendi necessitatem imponunt, nec sine periculo praetermitti possunt, alia non necessitate constringunt, sed in arbitrio & voluntate posita sunt, ac proinde hanc rationem habent, ut qui ea custodierint praemijs & honore afficiantur, qui autem minus ea expleverint, nihil periculi per timescant. S. Cyprian; Non iubet virginitatem Dominus Cyprian. de habitu Virginum, prope finem. sed Hortatur, nec iugum necessitatis imponit quando maneat voluntatis arbitrium liberum. Origen, Origen. in ca 15. ad Rom. Ea quae supra debitum facimus, non facimus ex Praecepto, verbi causa, Virginitas non ex debito soluitur, sed supra debitum offertur. I will not bring more proof of this Doctrine out of Scripture, which the Fathers I cited, proved by the words 1. Cor. 7. 25. of S. Paul, in express terms, affirming, That there are beside Precepts, works of Supererogation, or Counsels, De Virginibus Praeceptum Domini non habeo, sed Consilium do. Nor will I allege more Testimonies of Fathers, which might be produced in great number, most plain and pregnant. Only I cannot omit one place of S. Ambrose, who delivering this Doctrine, doth together Ambros. d. viduis ultra medium. answer a Protestants vulgar Objection against it. Itaque qui Praeceptum impleverint, possunt dicere serui inutiles sumus, quod debuimus facere fecimus. Hoc Virgo non dicit, non dicit qui bona sua vendidit, sed Luc. 17. vers. 10. quasi repofita expectat praemia, sicut sanctus Apostolus ait: Ecce nos reliquimus omnia, & secuti sumus Matth. 19 vers. 17. te, quid ergo erit nobis? Sunt enim Spadones quise Ibid. vers. 12. castraverunt propter regnum coelorum, sed hoc non omnibus imperatur, sed ab omnibus flaguatur, Virgo provocatur 〈◊〉, non vinculis alligatur, sed nec vidua Praeceptum accipit, sed Consilium. What can be more clearly spoken for works of Supererogation, or Counsels? ANSWER. If you had examined the place of Gregory a Greg. Mor. li. 26. ca 21. Aliud est quod per Sacram Scripturam omnibus generaliter precipitur, aliud quod specialiter perfectioribus Imperatur. , you might have perceived, that he divideth Divine Precepts, into general or common Precepts, and into personal and special: and the words which you allege (paring off the rest, because they make against you) wherein he saith, That they which are not judged and reign (Math. 19.27, 28.) do transcend the Precepts of the Law, by the perfection of their virtues, etc. are understood by him of general and common Precepts, which oblige all people, and not Plus exhibere appetunt, quam preceptis generalibus audire potuerunt. of special Commandments: but where a man is obliged by any Commandment, general or special, there is no Supererogation. And that Saint Gregory was far from maintaining works of Supererogation, appeareth by his perpetual and constant Doctrine, concerning the defect and imperfection of man's righteousness b Greg. Mor. lib. 5. cap. 7.8. & lib. 8. cap. 13. 20. 21. 23. & lib. 9 cap. 14.27.28. Quantumlibet rectis operibus insudemus, veram munditiam nunquam apprehendimus, sed imitamur. Et lib. 24. cap. 18. & lib. 29. cap. 9 & lib. 32. cap. 1. & lib. 35. cap. 3.26. & sup. Ezech. hom. 9 & Prologue. in Psal. penitential. , and his renouncing all confidence in his own worthiness and deserts c Idem. in 1. Psal. poen. Non de meis meritis confidens, ut me saluum facias supplico, sed de sola misericordia tua presumens impetrare, quod non de meis meritis spero. . The rest of the Fathers, to wit, Fulgentius, Paulinus, St. Augustine, Optatus, St. Hierom, St. Chrysostome, Gregory Nazianzen, St. Cyprian, Origen, and St. Ambrose, mention works of Counsel, and one of them saith, It is possible to do more than is commanded. But this Father speaketh not thus, in respect of all the Commandments of God, for than he must free just persons from all sin; but in respect of some particular Actions, to wit, whereas the Law of Charity commandeth to distribute a portion of goods to the poor, a man may bestow half his goods; nevertheless, he which performeth this, may be deficient another way, for he may fall short in the intention of his Charity, and also in the measure of his Hope, Humility, and other virtues. The jesuit concludeth the place of Saint Ambrose, Lib. de viduis, with an Exclamation, saying, What can be more clearly spoken for Works of Counsel and Supererogation? But before his boasting, he should have advised better touching these Father's meaning. First, Ambrose teacheth, that there is a difference between Precepts and Counsels. Secondly, That the observing Duplex forma mandati, una praeceptiva, alia voluntaria. Hoc non omnibus Imperatur. of Counsels is not required of all, but of some. Thirdly, They which besides Precepts, observe Counsels, are more profitable servants, and shall receive a greater reward. Now the Argument for Works of Supererogation, from this Testimony of St. Ambrose, must be as followeth. If they are more profitable servants, and receive a greater reward, which perform some virtuous and laudable Actions, not enjoined by common Precept, but by Council; then Works of Supererogation must be granted. But they are more profitable servants, and receive a greater reward, which perform some virtuous Actions, not enjoined by common Precept, but by Council, Ergo, Works of Supererogation must be granted. I answer, denying the Consequence: for to the being and definition of Works of Supererogation, more is required than the performing of some virtuous and rewardable Actions, enjoined by Council, and not by common Precept, to wit, First, That the said virtuous and laudable Actions, be neither enjoined by strict and moral Precept, nor yet by the Law of gratitude; for when the Fathers oppose Precepts and Counsels, they understand Precepts strictly, and not the Law of Gratitude. Secondly, They which supererogate, must do the same universally, and transcend the common rule in every Precept and virtuous Action, and not in some alone. Thirdly, They must so transcend, that they be guilty of no Omission or Commission, either against the substance or perfection of any moral Commandment. Jesuit. Neither is there any arrogancy, as I said before, in this Doctrine: for neither the Fathers nor we attribute more unto man than Protestants do; but only acknowledge one kind of Divine liberality towards man, which Protestants be somewhat backward to believe: for Protestants will not deny, supposing that God exacteth much less than man is able (by his grace) to perform, but a man may offer unto God some voluntary services, beyond commanded duties. Catholics also grant, that had God used the uttermost severity in charging us with debts, as he might have done, we could never by any measure of grace that now is ordinarily afforded unto men, have complied with vnrequired offices. The difference therefore between them and us, is this: They think that God severely exacteth of man, that ever, and in all 〈◊〉, he work according to the uttermost of his power; yea, commands him things impossible for him to perform. Contrariwise, we 〈◊〉, that God (to the end his Law may be unto men, A sweet yoke, A light load, and his Commandments not difficile) doth not exact of man all that man is able to do with his grace, but much less, and so much less, as man is able through his remission, to offer him liberalities: What pride is it for man to acknowledge this sweet providence of this Creator, to praise his merciful indulgence, in not exacting so much as he might? Especially believing, that this divine indulgence, not to exact of man, and consequently man's ability, to present unto God more perfect and excellent service than he requires, is given him through the merits of Christ jesus. ANSWER. First, You couple yourselves with Fathers, like as the pharisees did themselves with Abraham; Sed quid Simiae prodest, si videatur esse Leo, saith Gregory Nazianzen, An Ape is but an Ape, Greg. Naz. in Sent. although he will seem a Lyon. Secondly, A man may offer unto God a freewill offering, and yet herein he performeth no more than he is obliged unto by the Law of gratitude. Thirdly, It is no part of our Creed, that God in the evangelical Covenant severely exacteth of man any thing, as necessary to his salvation, which is impossible for him to perform by the assistance of divine grace a P. Martyr. sup. Rom. 8. Si quis recte intelligat nostram assertionem, facile videbit, nos non docere mandata Dei prorsus esse impossibilia, nisi tantum quod ad eos 〈◊〉, qui à Christo sunt alieni, pa. 457. , and yet we say again, That God by the rule of his Law commandeth a greater perfection of righteousness than man is able to perform in this life b August. d. pecc. mer. & remiss. lib. 2. cap. 16. jubet Deus, omnibus hominibus ut non faciant ullum peccatum, quamuis sit prescius neminem hoc impleturum: ut quicunque impie & damnabiliter eius precepta contempserint, ipse faciat in 〈◊〉 damnatione quod iustum est: Quicunque autem in eius preceptis obedienter & pie proficientes, nec tamen omnia quae precepit implentes, sicuti sibi dimitti volunt, si aliis 〈◊〉 dimiserint, ipse faciat in eorum mundatione quod bonum est. , that all flesh may be humbled by the sight of infirmity, and consider the gracious indulgence of God, in remitting sin, and his free bounty, in conferring so great and so many undeserved benefits. Fourthly, We praise God as much as any Romists can do, for his merciful indulgence, in remitting, and not exacting so but with all we believe that God hath not 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 us from being still his debtors, and we stand perpetually obliged unto him, touching the debt of Obedience, yea more after Grace receined than before, Rom. 6. 18. And although he imputeth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 defects, when we obey him in the main, yet this indulgence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 power to man to merit his own salvation, much less to supererogate, or to communicate his virtuous actions by way of satisfaction, unto others. Jesuit. Jesuit 4. Works with reference to the Treasure of the Church. THe other part of this Controversy proposed by your Majesty, about Works referred unto the Treasure of the Church, concerns good Works, not as they are meritorious of reward, but as they are satisfactory for sin: for the works of Saints, as they are Merits, be laid up not in the Treasury of the Church, to be applied unto others, but in the memory of God, to receive their deserved guerdon in due time. ANSWER. TO the constitution of Pope's Pardons, three things are required by the Papals, and rejected by us. First, Superfluous and redundant satisfactions of Saints a Nugnus. Addit. in. 3. pa. Tho. q. 25. ar. 1. dif. 2. Fides est ità ut 〈◊〉 sit haeresis 〈◊〉, esse thesaurum In Ecclesia, constans ex satisfactiomb superabundantibus Christi Domini, & fides est ità ut oppofitum sit erroneum, hunc thesaurum etiam constare ex satisfactionibus Sanctorum. . Secondly, A vast Treasury in the Church militant, to receive and contain the same b Id. Ibid. Thesaurum dici metaphoricè, etc. ad Sgnificandum cumulum & 〈◊〉 meritorum Christi & Sanctorum, in quantum constat ex satisfactionibus Christi & Sanctorum, quae bona modo in terris non habent Dominum, quià nulli sunt applicata in particulari. . Thirdly, An eminent authority and power in the Popes c Antonin. sum. Mor. p. 1. tit. 10. cap. 1. Claves istius thesauri, ad ipsum erogandum 〈◊〉 habet Papa. and Prelates of the Roman Church, to communicate and apply the same to the living and defunct d Ibid. Possunt autem valere indulgentiae, secundum Thomam & Richardum in 4. nen solum vivis, sed etiàm existentibus in purgatorio. . Protestants deny that any member of this Doctrine is Catholic and Orthodoxal; or that the holy Apostles, or Primitive Church maintained the same, by teaching, or practise. We affirm also, That the said Doctrine is novel, and devised by Roman Prelates for filthy lucre e 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 in 3. Tho. q. 25. 〈◊〉. 1. dif. 1. 〈◊〉 mihi videtur melius esse ex genere secundum se, illas (pecunias) confer ad lucrandas indulgentias, etc. pa. 447. . The Adversary notwithstanding, laboureth to underprop the tottering wall of Papal 〈◊〉 and Indulgences, First, by distinction of Merits and Satisfactions; Secondly, by explication of his Romish Tenet, touching Satisfactions; Thirdly, by delivering the main grounds of the Doctrine of Satisfactions, and Pardons. His first Proposition is, The merits of Saints are reserved and laid up in the memory of God, and not in the Treasury of the Church a 〈◊〉. sum. lib. 4. d. Relax. per Claves. Ecclesia non solum meretur remissionem culpae alicui, sed etiam remissionem poenae. . And on the contrary, the redundant satisfactions of Saints are laid up in the Treasury of the Church. But this assertion is voluntary, delivered only, and not proved. And if Saints have superabundant Satisfactions, than they have also superabundant Merits b 〈◊〉. Annal. tom. 14. anno 1300. n. 4. Dictorun 〈◊〉 (Petri & Pauli) meritis, omnes animae in purgatorio, non 〈◊〉 à poenis fuissent liberatae, sed aeternam quoquè gloriam consecutae. , as appeareth in Christ, who is their sampler: and if their Satisfactions are communicable, why shall not their merits be communicated to other persons c Zerula. d. Indulg li. 1. ca 18. q. 6. An viws satisfaciat, vel impetret, vel meretur per viam iustitiae, etc. Resp. Dico secundò quod etiam per viam iustitiae 2. Tim. 4. Et sicut viws pro vivo potest mereri & satisfacere per viam iustitiae, sic etiàm pro defunctis, etc. ? and if this, why may not the Church apply and communicate the one as well as the other? Popery is a mystery, Apoc. 17.5. And the Canonists say of the Pope, Stat pro ratione voluntas d Vid. jacob. d. Graph. Decis. Aur. p. 1. li. 1. ca 31. nu. 3. , his absolute will stands for a reason: Et potest aliquid de nihilo facere, he is able to make something of nothing: otherwise, there is the same reason for communication of Merits, and for Satisfactions; for in Christ jesus both were communicated alike, & Christ is the Sampler, or Archtype, according to which, the Doctrine of saintly Merit and Satisfafaction (if there were in truth any such) must be proportioned. Jesuit. The Doctrine of Satisfaction, is like the former of Merit, much spoken against, and by many, disliked in the highest degree; who yet perchance do not much understand what they so earnestly impugn, as may appear by this brief declarion of our Doctrine in this point. ANSWER. We grant the parity of both Doctrines, in regard of falsehood: and as there is no Merit of Condignity, but in Christ jesus alone, so likewise of Satisfaction. But whereas you say, that many dislike the same without understanding, what they impugn: this insolent censure is frequent with you; yet we freely grant, that by mixing Theology, and Sophistry, you 〈◊〉 laboured to make your new Doctrine 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 a Cornel. 〈◊〉. sup. Rom. 6. pag. 279. Vigebat spinosa & molesta nescio quae Theologia, de instantibus, relationibus, de quidditatibus, de formalitatibus, itemquè baec omnia Sillogismis arte contortis, & humanis duntaxtat argutijs, quae proculdubio, qua authoritate recipiuntur, refelli possunt 〈◊〉 tota 〈◊〉 in hominum decretis, quae inter se pugnantia semper nullo tempore reconcilianda, alunt perpetuam per secula litem, etc. Is sublimis Theologus habebatur, qui maiora portenta pro suis 〈◊〉 effingere sciat, praetijque pars erat gloriolae inanis non intelligi, grandia illa verba 〈◊〉 alto 〈◊〉 inter 〈◊〉 de sacris Philosophantes trutinabant. juraverunt universi in 〈◊〉 verba. Hinc 〈◊〉 sectae, Thomistae, Scotistae, Occhamistae, Albertistae, Egidiani, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, posthabebantur Euangeliae, Epistolae, Christiana Sapientia delitescebat, a paucissimis tradebatur, sed frigidè, non dicam in sincerè. Ecce nunc in hoc seculo bonarum literarum 〈◊〉 occasione accepta ab impijssima hac Haereticorum secta, divina gratia, emergit Christus, Moses, Paulus, Petrus, quot hominum pigritiam excussit Deus, quot spiritus suscitavit, ut occurrat lupis his, qui 〈◊〉 Dominicae oves mactare venerunt, quot abdita Scripturarum loca, enucleavit labor eorum assiduus? , and you are oftentimes so obscure and uncertain in this and many 〈◊〉 points, that you understand not yourselves. And of ourselves we may affirm without arrogancy, that for ought you are able to demonstrate to the contrary, God almighty, both by Nature, Art, and Grace, hath afforded us no less sufficient means to understand truth than yourselves. Jesuit. First, we do not think that any sinner can make satisfaction by works unto God, for the guilt of mortal and damnable sin. The reason is, because works of Satisfaction are such as gain pardon, and obtain it by some kind of justice from God. The works of his children may merit in this sort, as being the works of them that are instruments of the holy Ghost, dwelling and operating within them, and living members of Christ his mystical body, receiving influence of life, and operation from him, as from their head. Sinners are neither the children of God, nor the temples of the holy Ghost, nor living members of Christ: so their works cannot be so gracious, as they may deserve any thing as due to them in any kind of justice from God, much less can they deserve so great a reward as remission of mortal sin, and of the eternal punishment due thereunto, ANSWER. As you think not the one, touching sinners, so you cannot prove the other, concerning justified persons; as appeareth by that which hath formerly beendelivered in confutation of your error. Jesuit. Secondly, we do not teach that any Saint or Angel can make satisfaction unto God for the mortal sin of any man, no not all Saints and Angels, putting together all their good Works and Satisfactions. The reason is, because an injury is so much the greater, by how much the person that offers it is base, and the person to whom it is offered is noble, as the light of reason and the estimation of mankind showeth. But God (whom man casts away and abandoneth by sin, and consequently wrongs) is of infinite dignity, and man offending him, comparatively with him infinitely base: wherefore mortal sin, which is an abandoning of God for some transitory content, is injury done unto God incomparably grievous. On the other side, Satisfaction is the less esteemed, by how much the person satisfying is mean, and the person offended great. Men and Angels, what are they, being compared with God? certainly nothing; therefore certainly their Works and Satisfactions are inestimably disproportionable to satisfy, for any the least mortal sin, the guilt whereof is so great a debt, as is unsatisfiable, but only by the precious blood of the Son of God; he, being a person coequal and consubstantial with his Father, to satisfy God's anger, by humbling the infinite dignity of his person unto the most disgraceful death of the Cross, offered satisfaction full and complete, yea superabundant; the person satisfying, in regard of his divinity, being infinitely more honourable than the person offending was contemptible by reason of his baseness. Thirdly, the Roman Church teacheth, That those that have been made the children of God by Baptism, if they sin mortally afterward, when they repent, God forgives them the guilt of sin, and consequently the eternal punishment, by the sacrament of Penance, bountifully and graciously through the mere merits of Christ, without their satisfactions: only they must by faith, by fear, by hope, by contrition, by purposes of amendment, prepare and make themselves capable of that gracious and grace-infusing pardon. ANSWER. The Son of God alone is the propitiation for our sins, 1. john 2.2. and the fault and guilt of sin was purged by the same Oblation. By him, all that believe, are justified or absolved, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, from all, Act. 13. 39 Neither are there two distinct Sacrifices and Ransoms, to wit, the Blood of Christ, for the redemption of crimes, and eternal pain; and the merits and supra-passions of Saints a Extra. d. poen. & Remiss. Clemens 6. ca Vnigenitus. Ad cuius quidem thesauri cumulum beatae Dei genitricis, omniumque Electorum à primo iusto usque ad ultimum merita, adminiculum praestare noscuntur, etc. 〈◊〉. 4. d. 20. q. 4. n. 10. In hoc conveniunt Sancti cum Christo, in his quae fuerunt Supererogationis, quod aliquid ponunt in thesauro Ecclesiae sicut Christus. Al. Hal. 4. q. 23. ar. 2. n. 3. Capreol. 4. d. 20. q. 1. ar. 3. Aureol. 4. d. 20. pa. 148. Salmer. in Coloss. cap. 1. disp. 3. pa. 351. Panormit. 5. Decretal. d. poen. & Remiss. ca Quod autem. n. 8. Scire debes quod ex effusione sanguinis Christi, & multis meritis martyrum, & aliorum sanctorum, constituitur Thesaurus Ecclesiae, cuius potestatem habet Vicarius Christi, & claudit & aperit cui vult: nam minima gutta sanguinis Christi fuisset sufficiens, ad redimendum totum mundum. Item Martyrs fuerunt hic puniti ultra quod eorum delicta meruerunt, unde eorum merita manserunt in Ecclesia universali, quia sicut nullum malum impunitum ita nullum bonum irremuneratum: Ille ergo qui concedit Indulgentias, intendit communicare illa bona irremunerata, compensatione quadam. , together with Christ his sufferings for smaller sins, and for the temporal pain of mortal. But the Lamb of God bore all our sins in his Body upon the Tree, john 1.29. 1. Pet. 2.24. and his Blood alone cleanseth from all sin, 1. john 1.9. Smaller sins and offences, are a parcel of man's debt to God, and we pray to God, in the Name, and for the Merits and satisfaction of his beloved Son, to forgive us our whole debt. Our Saviour taught not his Church to pray to his Father, for a free remission of lesser sins b Antonin. Sum. Moral. p. 1. Tit. 10. cap. 3. Palud. 4. d. 20. q. 4. n. 51. Potest, ut videtur per indulgentiam, in quantum habetrationem cuiusdam absolutionis, remitti veniale quoad culpam. Viguer. Instit. cap. 16. §. 6. vers. 22. Plenissima (Indulgentia) quia non solum remittuntur poenae mortalium & venialium, sed etiam ipsa culpa venialis remittitur. , for our own satisfaction, together with Christ's; but binding up all sins in one bundle, he teacheth us to pray, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Forgive us our debts (that is, all our debts, Psal. 103.3.) as we forgive our debtors, Math. 6.12. If therefore our Adversaries teach no more concerning this than what is contained in this Section, to wit, that no Saint or Angel can make satisfaction to God for mortal sin: This Doctrine is true; but there is also a further truth, to wit, No Saint or Angel can make compensant satisfaction to God for the guilt of any sin, great or small; but all such satisfaction (taking the word properly) was performed by the Son of God, who trod the Winepress alone; and of the people, there was none with him, Esa. 63. 3. joh. 1.29. 1. joh. 2.2. Secondly, It is a Verity, That regenerate persons 〈◊〉 sin after Baptism, are renewed by the virtue of Repentance a Chrys. in Matth. Hom. 10. Non est aliquod omnino peccatum quod non cedat poenitentiae virtuti imo gratiae Dei, cum ad 〈◊〉 ora convertimur. , Luc. 22. 62. But it is erroneous, that there are two distinct kinds of Repentance, one before, and the other after Baptism; the one a Virtue only, the other both a Sacrament and a Virtue. For where there is the same definition, there is also the same thing in kind. But Repentance before, and after Baptism, hath the same definition, and integral parts, to wit, Contrition for sins committed, Confession to God, and (if need require) Confession to men (according to the quality of the fault,) Amendment of Life, and humble Supplication by Prayer of Faith, for reconciliation with God, and for remission of sins, Matth. 3.6. Luc. 3.10. Act. 3. 19 & cap. 8.22. & cap. 26.20. Also the Grace, and promise of Remission, is made to Repentance, before and after Baptism, Act. 3. 19 & 5.31. & 8.22. Apoc. 2. 5. 16. And if Repentance before Baptism, is no Sacrament, What causeth it to be such after Baptism? For no visible Element, or sign is added, neither is any promise of a different kind from the former, annexed. And although the Apostles, 1. Cor. 5.3. & 2. Cor. 2, 3. etc. & cap. 7.8. and also the Primitive Church b Tertull. lib d. Poenit. cap. 9 Cyprian. d. Lapsis. , urged a stricter manner and degree of Humiliation upon notorious Delinquents, after Baptism, than before; yet this Discipline changed not the kind or substance of Repentance, but increased only the quantity and measure thereof. Jesuit. Fourthly, the Roman Church holds, That God by Penance forgiving the eternal punishment, doth in lieu thereof many times appoint a Task of temporal pain, to be endured by the Penitent. This reserved penalty, is greater or lesser, according to the multitude and grievousness of the sins committed, and is that for which Penitents may and must satisfy. And why may not the Penal Works, performed by the children of God, beautified by so manyafore-named excellent Graces, be sufficient to deserve of God the remission of this temporal Mulct, and cancel the Debt of enduring transitory pain? I could bring Testimonies of the most ancient Fathers in great number, for the necessity we have of suffering these voluntary afflictions for sins, and of the efficacity thereof to expiate sin, with the very name of Satisfaction; there being scarce any ancient Father, that hath not taught both the thing, and the word. ANSWER. When God pardons a sinner, he doth it not by way of Exchange, or Parcelling, but remitteth all punishment of Malediction, or pure Revenge a Prosp. Sent. 5. Misericorditèr temporalem adhibet severitatem. Id. Sent. 231. Cum facit ut aliqua tribulatione vexemur, etiam tunc misericors est. : For that which is so forgiven, as that after pardon it is not mentioned, or remembered, and which is cast behind God's back, and thrown into the bottom of the Sea, and which can no where be found, and is blotted out of the Debt-book of the Almighty, is not taken away by commutation of a greater punishment into a less, but by a free and full condonation of all vindictive punishment. But the holy Scripture, and the Primitive Fathers, teach such a remission of sins on God's part, to the Penitent, Ezech. 18.22. Esa. 38. 17. & ca 43. 25. & 44. 22. Mich. 7.19. jer. 50.20. Heb. 8. 12. & 10. 17. Col. 2. 14. Matth. 18.32. S. Augustine b Aug. sup. Psal. 31. Sitexit peccata Deus, noluit advertere noluit animaduertere, si noluit animaduertere, noluit punire, noluit agnoscere, maluit ignoscere. , If God hath covered sins, he will not observe, he will not think upon them, to punish them; he will not take knowledge, but rather pardon. Gregory c Greg. Mor. li. 4. ca 18. the Great; Ignoscendo impunita relinquit, By pardoning, he leaveth them unpunished. Cassiodorus d Cassiodor. sup. Psal. 84. ; Remittere est debitum relaxare, non causae alicuius interuentu sed pietatis intuitu, To remit, is to release the Debt; not by intercourse of any cause (on man's part) but by aspect of Piety. Nevertheless, after great and enormous offences committed by his people, God doth chastise them e August. sup. Psal. 50. Aliquando Deus cui ignoscit in futuro seculo, corripit eum de peccato in isto seculo. Name & ipsi Dauid cui dictum iam fuerat per Prophetam, dimissum est peccatum tuum, evenerunt quidam quae minatus 〈◊〉, Deus propter ipsum peccatum. Nam filius eius Absalon 〈◊〉 eum cruentum Bellum gessit, & in multis humiliavit patrem suum. Ambulabat ille in dolore, in tribulatione humiliationis suae: ita subditus Deo, ut omnia iusta ei tribuens, confiteretur, quod 〈◊〉 pateretur indigne, habens iam rectum cor, cui non displicebat Deus. with the Rod of Correction, Psal. 89. 33. 1. Cor. 11. 31, 32. And this Correction, is a pain of Castigation, Lament. jerem. 3.39. but not a punishment of Malediction f Vasq. 1. 2. Disp. 208. ca 5. nu. 25. Si Deus vellet aliquem torquere, non 〈◊〉 macula, nec 〈◊〉, malum quod ei infligeret, non haberet rationem poenae. Nam poena est malum 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉, sed Deus tanquam Author 〈◊〉, & mortis posset ipsum affligere, sicut etiam fecit cum Sancto job. Bernard. in Cant. Serm. 16. Etsi quandoque feriat ut emendet, nunquam tamen ut 〈◊〉. , Galath. 3. 13. a work of God's Mercy, rather than of his justice.. The difference between Pontificians and us in this Doctrine, is, That we believe a remainder of Temporal affliction, after remission of the guilt of sin in this life only, and that for chastisement a Aug. in Psa. 98. Illi Deus irascitur, quem peccantem non flagellat. Nam cui verè propicius est, non solum donat peccata ne 〈◊〉 ad futurum seculum, sed etiam chastigat ne semper peccare delectet. Orig. sup. Genes. Hom. 16. Quod iustis exercitium virtutis est, hoc iniustis poena peccati est. August. Epist. 87. Quid non misericorditer. praestaretur hominibus à Deo, à quo etiam tribulatio beneficium est. Res prosperae, donum sunt consolantis: res adversae, donum admonentis Dei. Idem, c. Faust. Manich. lib. 22. ca 67. Read the Margin, pa. 547. c. August. c. Faust. li. 22. ca 20. Nullus hominum est, tanta iustitia praeditus, cui non sit necessaria tentatio tribulationis, vel ad perficiendam, vel ad confirmandam, vel ad probandam virtutem. , erudition, and probation. They maintain a remainder of temporal punishment, after sin remitted, not only in this present life, but after the same, in Purgatory. Further we believe, That the affliction or pain of Chastisement, inflicted upon penitent sinners, may by prayer of Faith, exercise of Virtue, Humiliation, and Mortification, be either removed, or else mitigated, and converted to the increase of grace and glory in those, which with patience and holiness endure the same in this life. But we deny, either that any pain followeth just persons after their decease, or that in this life they can by Prayer, Mortification, or any good works, merit release of any Temporal Mulct, or satisfy the Divine justice for the least fault or guilt of any sin, on their own behalf, much less for others. And whereas the jesuit affirmeth, That he can produce Testimonies of the ancient Fathers, in great number, both for our necessity of suffering voluntary afflictions, and also for the efficacity thereof, to expiate sin, and to satisfy: I answer, First, That the Fathers, and holy Scriptures, require works of Humiliation and Mortification, not as meritorious, but only as means and causes impetrant, or deprecant, to appease God's wrath for sin. Secondly, The Fathers understand not the word Satisfaction strictly, and in rigour, for satisfaction of condignity, as Romists do b Suar. 〈◊〉. 4. in 3. p. Tho. Disp. 48. Sect. 3. qui citat. Gabriel. Adrian. Navar. 〈◊〉. Soto. 〈◊〉, Addit. ad. 3. p. Tho. q. 20. Difficult. 2. Conclus. 2. Si satisfactio consideretur secundum omnia quae habet, quia scilicet, simul est ab homine & à Deo, simpliciter est satisfactio condigna. Vasq. tom. 4. in 3. p. Tho. q. 94. Dub. 3. Omnes Doctores antiqui supponere videntur, esse nostra opera satisfactoria de condigno pro poena, etc. Ibid. Dub. 5. Si in operibus meritorijs concedimus condignitatem ad vitam aeternam, & ad augmentum sanctitatis, cur non etiam ad poenae remissionem?, but improperly and largely, to wit, for satisfaction of deprecation, congruity, or impetration. And according to their acceptation, and use, the word Satisfaction comprehendeth Contrition and Confession, and not Sacramental Satisfaction only. Also they require Satisfaction, as a remedy against the guilt of Mortal sin, and not only as a Purgative of Venial sin, or as a remedy against Temporal pain only. But to the end the Reader may evidently perceive the Popish fraud, in perverting the Sentences of the Fathers, concerning Satisfaction; I will in this place distinctly compare their Doctrine with the present Romish Tenet. First, It is confessed, That many Fathers use the word Satisfaction a 〈◊〉. d. poen. ca 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 instituer at Deo satisfacere. ca 7. Habes 〈◊〉 satisfacias. Cyprian. Epist. 10. Deo patri misericordi, praecibus & 〈◊〉 suis satisfacere. Epist. 27. Deo satisfacere debent. Epist. 40. Dominus 〈◊〉, & continua satisfactione 〈◊〉 est. Idem. Epist. 55. & epist. 64. Et. 〈◊〉. Et Eleemos. 〈◊〉 li. d. lapsis. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Aug. li. 50. Hom. vit. ca 4. Leo. Epist. 79. ad Nicet. ca 5. Et epist. 〈◊〉. ca 〈◊〉. & 92. ca 2. , and require penitent Persons to perform the same to God and men. Secondly, Within the name of Satisfaction, they include and comprehend contrition to God, confession, and amendment of life b Cypra. Epi. 26. Eluendae sunt impio Sacrificio manus inquinatae, operibus bonis, & nesario cibo or a misera polluta, poenitentiae sunt verae sermonibus expianda, & in secretis cordis fidelis novellandus & 〈◊〉 est animus: crebri poenitentium gemitus audiantur. Et iterum sideles ex oculis lachrimae 〈◊〉, ut illi ipsi oculi, qui male simulachra conspexerunt, quae 〈◊〉 commiserunt, satisfacientibus Deo 〈◊〉 deleant. 〈◊〉. li. a. Lapsis. Qui sic Deo 〈◊〉, qui poenitentia facti sui, qui pudore delicti plus virtutis & sidei, etc. Ambros. ad Virg. Laps. ca 8. Chrys. d. Lazaro. Hom. 4. Aug. li. 50 Hom. 5. Non sufficit mores in melius commutare, & à factis malis recedere, nisi etiam de his, quae sacta sunt, satisfiat Deo, per poenitentiae 〈◊〉, per humilitatis 〈◊〉, per contriti cordis Sacrificium, cooperantibus Eleemosynis. . Thirdly, they require satisfaction for the fault and eternal guilt of sin c Ambr. ad Virg. corrupt. Si futuras poenas 〈◊〉 perpetuas, in hoc 〈◊〉 vitae spacio compensaverit, etc. Tertul. d. poen. ca 9 Temporali 〈◊〉 aeterna supplicia non dicam frustretur, sed expungat. Cyprian. Epist. 52. Pro 〈◊〉 & purgando delicto tuo, etc. Ep. 55. Datur opera ne satisfactionibus & lamentationibus iustis delicta 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. in Psal. 118. (exitus Aquarum, etc.) Nunc quoque non desinit verae poenit entiae 〈◊〉, veteris facti crimen abluere. Pacian. Paroen. ad Poen. Hieron. Epist. 30. ca 2. Cassian. collat. 23. ca 〈◊〉. Quisquis post Baptismum, & scientiam Dei, in illud mortis corpus 〈◊〉, hoc est in aliquod capitale 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 se non quotidiana gratia Dei, id est facili remissione, etc. sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afflictione 〈◊〉. ac poenali dolore purgandum, aut certe pro his 〈◊〉 futuro aeterni ignis supplicijs addicendum. Eucherius. Hom. 5. ad Monach. Non levi agendum est contritione, ut debita illa re dimantur, quibus 〈◊〉 aeterna debetur. Nec transitoria opus est satisfactione pro malis 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 quae paratus est ignis aeternus. and not only for remoovall of temporal punishment. Fourthly, the word Satisfaction is taken in two notions: First, strictly for a just and equal compensation of the injury committed against God, which Schoolmen term, Satisfaction of condignity d Vasques in 3. part. Tho. to. 4. d. poen. q. 94. ar. 1. dub. 3. Si 〈◊〉 opera iustorum esse de condigno satisfactoria, illud asserere debemus ex 〈◊〉 ipsorum 〈◊〉, quae in homine iusto ex auxilio dei facta sunt 〈◊〉, atque adeo non ex Dei benigna acceptatione, qua 〈◊〉 ipsis operibus contentus esse, etiamsi illa minus condigna sunt: hoc vero dixerim de latisfactione extra 〈◊〉, illa enim debet esse condigna absque condonatione 〈◊〉, alias non 〈◊〉 latisfactio, nec debet concedi in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 applicationem meritorum Christi, additam ipsi 〈◊〉 satisfactorio. Cornel. d. lap. in Daniel 4. v. 24. 〈◊〉 culpa, meretur ex condigno remissionem poenae reliquae. 〈◊〉. Harmon. Euang. li. 2. ca 1. Theoria. 10. 〈◊〉 satisfactionem esse de condigno & iustitia. . Secondly, for an interpretative compensation (as Durand e Dur and. 4. d. 15 q. 1. nu. 6. arqualitas proprie dicta, etc. vel secundum acceptationem eius 〈◊〉 sit emenda, & haec est aequalitas interpretatius solum. 〈◊〉 in 3. dist. 19 §. 1. Sciendum satisfactionem non aliud esse, quam debiti 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 satisfactionis nomen latius quandoque patet, ut etiam is satisfacere dicatur, qui vel se, vel alium quacunque ratione debitis apud creditorem liberat. Exigit 〈◊〉 aliquando creditor, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rigorem debitum est, aliquando autem contentus est accipere quantum satis est misericordiae. Vbi quidem sola prior illa perfecta est, & proprij nominis satisfactio: posterior vero non, ex iusta 〈◊〉 aestimatione, 〈◊〉 ex creditoris indulgentia inter satisfactiones 〈◊〉. Coenick. d. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Disp. 10. dub. 3. no. 19 Satisfactio decongruo non potest absolute dici satisfactio, sed tantum secundum quid. 〈◊〉. 3. d. 20. q. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est secundum acceptationem 〈◊〉 cui fit, vocatur satisfactio de congruo. ) termeth it, grounded upon Divine favour and acceptation, and not upon the complete dignity of the action. The Schoolmen term this latter, satisfaction of 〈◊〉 and Impetration (because God in his favourable indulgence 〈◊〉 more on man's part, as necessary to remission of sins, and because he is entreated by the same to release the punishment deserved.) The first kind of satisfaction was made by Christ alone a Cassand. Consult. d. 〈◊〉. De hac satisfactione non 〈◊〉 erit conquet endilocus, si ex Ecclesiae sententia, hunc in modum doceatur, quod sola passie & mors unigeniti filij Dei, sit satisfactio & 〈◊〉 pro peccatis nostris, sive eo quod ex Origine contraximus, five iis quae ante, vel post regenerationem, ex carnis infirmitate commisimus quae satisfactio offertur & applicatur nobis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est verbi, & Saeramentorum. , both for fault and guilt of sin. The latter (according to the speaking of sundry Fathers) is performed by penitent Persons b Cypr. Epist. 40. Quibus Dominus longa & continua 〈◊〉 placandus est. Tertul. d. poenit. ca 5. Qui per delictorum poenitentiam instituerat Domino 〈◊〉. , by their contrition, 〈◊〉, confession, and other penitential actions. Fiftly, repentance may be exercised privately only before God, or else openly and before men. The ancient Church observed a severe discipline, and imposed upon notorious and enormous sinners open penance c Euseb. hist. Eccles. li. 3. ca 17. Et. li. 5. ca 27. Et. li. 6. ca 35. Iren. li. 1. ca 9 Ambros. d poen. li. 1. ca 16 Sosomen. hist. Eccl. li. 7. c. 16. , causing them to make satisfaction to the Church, and to testify their unfeigned repentance to God by external signs, and by actions of humiliation and mortification. Also in the days of the Fathers, sinners which had voluntarily confessed their offences to the Pastors of the Church, were by them enjoined, to a strict manner of humiliation, and exercise of works of charity and mortification d Cassan. Consult. d. 〈◊〉. In veteri Ecclesia, ut segniores excitarentur. poenitentibus ob graviora 〈◊〉 certa tempora & officia definita fuerunt, quibus non solum coram Deo interiorem animi 〈◊〉 excitarent, & exercerent, sed etiam Ecclesiae vere se atque ex animo peccatin poenitere, declararent, atque ita manus impositione Episcopi & cleri, Ecclesiae reconciliarentur, & ius communicationis acciperent, atque 〈◊〉 prescripta officia, 〈◊〉 satisfactiones feu poenae vocabantur, quae ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Episcoporum & Pastorum in abusum, ita quoque negligentia & signitia 〈◊〉 pastorum 〈◊〉 populi 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 venerunt. B. Rhenanus. Annot. in Terr. d. poenit. . And the fathers styled these Penitential actions by the name of Satisfaction, partly in respect of men offended e August. 〈◊〉. ca 65. Recte constituuntur ab eis qui praesunt Ecclesiae tempora poenitentiae, ut fiat etiam satis Ecclesiae, in quna remittuntur peccata. , partly in the regard of Offenders themselves, who because they did that which was enjoined them by their spiritual guides, to appease the indignation of God, were said to make satisfaction. But the Fathers did not hereby exalt Penitential deeds to a sufficiency or equality of satisfying God's justice (for this effect is proper only to the actions and passions of the Son of God) but they termed that, satisfaction, which they judged meet or necessary for sinners to perform, that they might prevent Divine indignation, and whereby they might repair the spiritual detriment which they had incurred by falling into sin. Sixtly and lastly, Marsilius ab Inguen f Marsi. 4. quae. 〈◊〉 ar. 2. Satisfactio sacramentalis potest capi 〈◊〉, uno modo 〈◊〉 vim vocis, & sic satisfactio diceretur omnes illi actus voluntatis eliciti & imperati, quibus anima satisfacit deo, pro commisso crimine. Et hoc modo contritio, & 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 este partes satisfactionis quia sunt actus eliciti: ut contritio, electio 〈◊〉. confessio, interior, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 exterior actus imperatus quibus satisfacimus Deo. Et hoc modo satisfactio non est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 poenitentiae scilicet, 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉 Sacramentum. Alio modo satisfactio capitur restricte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 elicitis & imperatis 〈◊〉 contritionem & confessionem, & sic est pars Sacramenti poenitentiae, 〈◊〉 est contritio 〈◊〉 pars, vel etiam confessio: sed ab ea presupposira. a famous Schoolman, observeth 〈◊〉, That Satisfaction sometimes importeth all the actions 〈◊〉 or imperate, which a sinner must perform on his part, that God may be pacified; and thus it containeth Contrition, Confession, etc. Sometimes it noteth only those Acts which follow Contrationand Confession, and are either voluntarily assumed, or imposed by a Confessor. The Fathers used the word Satisfaction in the first notion, and they knew no Sacramental Satisfaction a 〈◊〉 Con. 〈◊〉 d. 〈◊〉. ar. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 etiá ex ordine 〈◊〉, non familiarem sive privatam poenitentiam, neque quamuis publicam, sed solennem tantum Sacramentum dici affirmant. , but only of Discipline, or private humiliation. Now the Romists in their course of Doctrine, have miserably 〈◊〉 all this. First, That which the Fathers speak of the fault and guilt of sin, they wrest to the temporal pain of mortal sin, remaining after the remission of the everlasting guilt b Greg. Val. l. d. Satisfact. cap. 1. 〈◊〉. d. Instruct. 〈◊〉. lib. 3. cap. 11. Victoria. sum. d. Sacram. d. poenit. nu. 109. 〈◊〉. 4. d. 15. q. 1. 〈◊〉. tom. 4. disp. 49. sect. 1. Cardub. lib. 5. d. Indulg. q. 2. Medina. d. 〈◊〉. per quinque prima capita. . Secondly, That which the Fathers styled Satisfaction improperly, and by way of deprecation c Cassand. Consultd. Confess. ar. 12. Si ex motu & afflatu Spiritus Sancti 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉 remissionem peccati faciunt. Cyprian. d. Laps. Sect. 24. 〈◊〉 fletibus, planctibus Dominum 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. ex var. in Math. Hom. 16. Pro omnibusillis accepit poenitentiam comitem, quae Aduocati locum 〈◊〉. , they make Satisfaction of Condignity, yea, in rigour of justice d Nazarius. in 3. p. Thom. q. 1. ar. 2. contr. 7. pa. 113. Si tamen accipiatur, ut satisfactioni Christi 〈◊〉, unum babebit cum ea vaiorem, ac proinde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 satisfactionis Christi, esse de rigore iustitiae. ; and for venial sins, more effectual than Christ's satisfaction e Ibid. Contr. 6. Satisfactio Christi licet sit 〈◊〉, & ex hac parte uberior & abundantior quam satisfactio hominisiusti pro suo 〈◊〉 veniali, tamen cum istius satisfactio ex auxilio gratiae efficacior sit ad 〈◊〉 maculam 〈◊〉 venialis, sequitur non esse perfectiorem satisfactionem Christi, quam sit satisfactio hominisiusti, pro suo 〈◊〉 veniali, in genere satisfactionis ad effectum delendi peccatum, & extinguendum debitum illius, licet satisfactio Christi in ratione operationis & meriti 〈◊〉 sit. Suares. tom. 4. disp. 48. sect. 3. . Thirdly, That which in the ancient Church was a work of discipline f Cassand. ibid. ut hac disciplina 〈◊〉 homines ad 〈◊〉 dignos fructus faciendos 〈◊〉. , or Christian mortification, they make Sacramental. Fourthly, Whereas the Fathers placed Satisfaction in all 〈◊〉 actions, inward, and outward g Aug. Ap. Grat. d. poen. dist. 1. c. 63. Non sufficit mores in melius commutare & à preteritis malis 〈◊〉, nisi etiam de his quae facta 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 fiat Deo per 〈◊〉 dolorem, per humilitatis 〈◊〉, per contriti cordis Sacrificium, cooperantibus 〈◊〉 & ieiunijs. ; and especially in such actions as were commanded by God, as necessary to obtain remission of sins: The Romists restrain the same to external actions, succeeding Contrition and Confession, and principally to electious, and voluntary actions h Bellarm. d. poen. l. 4. c. 13. Lioet sententia sit 〈◊〉 probabilis, 〈◊〉, Durandi; Paludani, etc. Non 〈◊〉 satisfieri per opera alias debita. 〈◊〉. in Confess. ca 48. Dare operam 〈◊〉 placatum tibi reddas, non 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉, verum etiam in debita quaedam opera faciendo, etc. Palud. 4. d. 15. q. 1. 〈◊〉. 2. 〈◊〉. v. satisfactio q. 8. 〈◊〉. 4. d. 15. q. 2. du. 1. 〈◊〉. ib. d. 15. q. 1. ar. 7. not. 1. . Fiftly, The Fathers gave not absolution to 〈◊〉, until such time as they had accomplished the penitential actions enjoined a Cassand. Consult. d. Confess. Hoc autem interest inter Actionem poenitentiae seu exomologesin veteribus usitatam, & came quae nunc usu recepta est, quod olim nisi his operibus ab Ecclesiae praefecto iniunctis rite peractis, absolutio, & reconciliatio, & communionis ius, per manus impositionem non concedebatur, ut ex multis Tertulliani & Cypriani locis constat, etc. Hodie vero statim à facta consessione, manus poenitenti imponitur, & ad communionis ius admittitur. . Romists set the Cart before the Horse, and absolve, before satisfaction is made; which is, as one saith, To set Easter before Lent. Jesuit. But I suppose they are to your Majesty well known, and therefore in the proposed difficulty, supposing the satisfaction for sin to be possible, you move this doubt, Whether the penitents can so fully satisfy for themselves, as their satisfactions may superabound, and be referred unto the treasure of the Church? to satisfy this doubt, three Propositions are to be proved. ANSWER. It is well known to his gracious Majesty, that you pervert the meaning of the Fathers, and from the word Satisfaction, used by them in one Notion, you argue to another, that is, from Satisfaction impetrant, which is an action, or fruit of the virtue of Repentance, you conclude your Romish Sacramental Satisfaction of Condignity. Jesuit. The first, That Good works of Saints that are poenall and afflictive, do not only merit heaven, but also satisfy for sin, this is proved; giving of Alms for the love of Christ is meritorious, witness our Saviour himself, who to the just (in reward of their Alms) will give, The Kingdom prepared from the beginning Math. 25. 34. of the world. ANSWER. First, You argue out of Saint Matthew 25. 34. from reward of Works, to merit of Works. But you must observe, that there is a reward of mere bounty, as well as of desert, 〈◊〉. 127.2 a Vet. 〈◊〉. Fihj merces fructus ventris. . Ezech. 29.18 b 〈◊〉. Cod. d. poen. tr. 3. d. Satisfact. q. 2. pa. 292. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nomine mercedis Scriptura utatur, nòn tamèn inde fit ut debito, & ex iustitia proprie sumpta Regnum AEgipti illi Regi fuerit traditum, sed 〈◊〉, illic largè accipitur, & ad omnem remunerationem etiàm gratiosam se extendit. . Gen. 30.18. Also, 〈◊〉 reason and cause why the kingdom of Heaven is bestowed, is not meritorious; but some causes are dispositive, 〈◊〉, or impetrant. Jesuit. And it is also satisfactory for sin, witness Daniel, Daniel. 4.24. who gave this council unto the Babylonian King: Redeem thy sins with Almsdeeds, and thine iniquities with mercies unto the poor. ANSWER. The place of Daniel 4.24. (according to the vulgar Translation a Peccata tua Eleemosinis redime, etc. ) speaketh of redeeming sins in regard of the fault and eternal guilt, and not only of temporal punishment. Also of redeeming sins in this life, and not of redeeming them in Purgatory. Besides if Nabuchadonosor were an unjust person b Hieron. sup. Esa. 14. Omnes animae apud Inferos, aliquam requiem accipient, tu solus in extremas tenebras religaberis, omnium enim operieris sanguine & universorum cruor te premet velut obuolutum sanie mortuorum. , Esa. 14.15. then according to your own position, he could not make satisfaction for sin. Lastly, the punishment threatened and foretold in that Scripture, is such, as Bellarmine c Bellarm. d. Indulg. lib. 2. cap. 1. Poena quarum fit mentio, Psal. 88 Heb. 11. etc. Ad forum externum pertinent, 〈◊〉 enim à Deo tanquam judice in externo & criminali 〈◊〉, nam si non potest ldulgentia tollere poenam qua Pretor aliquem mulctavit ob furtum vel homicidium, quantò minus 〈◊〉 poterit came quam Deus ipse alicui decrevit. himself confesseth, belongeth not to the Court of Penance, and Papal Indulgences. And if Pope's Pardons, and Romish Satisfactions could deliver sinners from frenzy, and loss of outward goods, and temporal dominion, the madmen in Bedlam, and decayed merchants, and other afflicted persons throughout the Christian world, would become suitors to his Holiness, to insert these, and other such like temporal calamities into the Patent of his Indulgences and jubilees. Also the place of Daniel is understood literally of breaking of sins by almsdeeds: as if one preaching to an extortioner, should say, Break off thy sinful courses, by imitating Zacheus, etc. Now what merit is there in this, or what immediate satisfaction to God? for this is rather satisfaction to man in regard of civil injury. Lastly, there is no ground either in Scripture, or in Tradition, for this Romish doctrine, to wit, the temporal pain of personal sin remaining after this life, may be removed or expiated by humane satisfactions: for whatsoever is spoken in holy Scripture, or by ancient Fathers, concerning redeeming sins by Satisfaction, belongs to the fault, and eternal pain of sin, as well as to the temporal punishment; and the satisfaction must be performed by the delinquent person himself, in this present life. Also the redemption or satisfaction possible to be performed by man, is by way of deprecation only, and not by just compensation. And (if there were a Purgatory) because the pains thereof would be proportioned and stinted by the divine Will and Decree, it could not rest in the power of any creature to mitigate and remove the same: but every soul descending into that place of darkness (if any such lake were) must continue in torment until it had paid the uttermost farthing. For if in this present world, which is a time of mercy, after satisfaction performed by penitent persons themselves, or by the redundant merits of Saints a Bellar. in Simbol. A post. ar. 9 pa. 123. Ecclesia quae est in terris communicat suffragia Ecclesiae quae est in Purgatorio: Et Ecclesia quae est in Coelis communicat orationes, & merita sua cum Ecclesia quae est in terris. , and after the said satisfactions are applied by Papal Indulgences, no temporal pain ceaseth infallibly, no not so much as the pain of one tooth, but the same continueth as before: It is altogether improbable to imagine (unless divine Revelation were extant to prove the same, and which is not) that it is otherwise, or in a contrary manner, touching any pains after this life. And papals abuse the testimonies of Scripture, making them grounds of Pope's Pardons, because the said Scriptures treat of worldly pressures and afflictions inflicted upon justified persons; for example, trial, humiliation, prevention, etc. (as appeareth in David b Aug. contra Faust. lib. 22. cap. 67. Nequè praetermissa est in illo, secundum Dei comminationem flagelli paterni Disciplina, ut & confessus in aeternum liberaretur, & afflictus temporaliter probaretur. , 2. Sam. 12.) and not of the invisible torments of Purgatory. Jesuit. And S. Chrysostome, who saith, There is no sin Chrys. Hom. 25. in Act. Apost. Cyprian. Serm. d. Eleemosyna. which giving of Alms cannot cancel: and S. Cyprian, Eleemosynis atquè operibus iustis delictorum flamma sopitur. ANSWER. S. Chrysostome, and S. Cyprian, in the places objected, speak of the effect of Alms to please God, being an acceptable sacrifice to him, by way of deprecation or impetration a Cyprian. d. Opere. & Eleemos. nu. 5. Nequè promereri misericordiam Domini poterit, qui misericors ipse non fuerit, aut impetrabit de divina misericordia aliquid in praecibus, qui ad praecem pauperis non fuerit humanus. Ibid. Nec pro defuncto suis vocibus, sed ipsius operibus 〈◊〉, etc. , and not by way of condign and equal satisfaction. And Delictorum flamma b Aug. in Psalm. 143. Tanquam unda misericordiae, peccati ignis extinguitur. in S. Cyprian, is not only the temporal punishment of sins, but the guiltiness of eternal punishment (job. 31.12.) and the lust and concupiscence concomitant to foul sins, which by repentance, and the fruits thereof, is abated and mortified. Jesuit. Prayer is likewise meritorious with God. Our Saviour Math. 6.6.7. exhorteth every man to pray secretly in his Closet, promising, that Thy Father who seeth what is done in secret will reward thee. It is also satisfactory for sin, Aug. Enchir. ca 71. as S. Augustine saith: The daily prayer of the faithful doth satisfy for their quotidian, and light offences, without which none can lead this life. ANSWER. If beggars, or other suitors, by craving Alms, or by making supplication, do not merit from men (which are in most things their equals) it is incredible, that man by Prayer is able to merit, according to justice, with God. And the word Reward, Math. 6. proveth not Merit, because there is reward of grace, and bounty, as well as of desert, Rom. 4.4. S. Augustine c Aug. Enchir. ca 71. Delet & illa, à quibus vita fidelium sceleratè etiam gesta, sed paenitendo in melius mutata discedit. in the place objected, speaketh of Satisfaction by way of deprecation: and he also saith, That the Lords Prayer joined with repentance, wipeth out grievous sins, which must necessarily be understood by way of deprecation. Also he declareth himself in the next Chapter, saying, Multa sunt genera Eleemosinarum, quae cum facimus, adiwamur ut dimittantur nobis peccata nostra. There are many sorts of Alms, (among which Prayer for others is one) by bestowing whereof we are holpen, that our sins may be remitted. And he teacheth in another place d Aug. e. duas Epist. Pelag. lib. 4. cap. 7. , in what manner Prayer and Almsdeeds are referred to remission of sins, saying, Eleemosynis & orationibus impetrantibus, Almsdeeds and Prayer impetrating, that is, obtaining by request. Jesuit. To fast is meritorious, when it proceeds from a pure heart, to which our Saviour in the sixth of S. Matthew, promised recompense: and that it is penal and satisfactory jonae cap. ult. for corporal penalties, the fact of the 〈◊〉 showeth 〈◊〉, so that the same works of the just (as pious) merit, and shall have in heaven a plentifall reward; as penal, satisfy and obtain full remission of the temporal penalties remaining to be suffered for sin. In confirmation whereof, memorable is the saying of S. Cyprian, Cyprian. Serm. d. Laps. of fervent penance and punition of body, Qui sic Deo satisfacerit, etc. Non solam Deiveniam merebitur sed coronam. ANSWER. First, every thing is not meritorious to which a recompense is promised, for there is recompense above merit, proceeding of mere bounty and grace. Secondly, the example of the Ninivites proveth not, that Fasting is satisfactory for corporal punishments; but only, that it being iomed with true repentance, is a means to impetrate of God (when this standeth with his purpose) prevention, release, or mitigation of temporal calamities. Besides, this action of the Ninivites appertains not to sacramental Satisfaction: And that Fasting is not condignly satisfactory a 〈◊〉 in Addit. 3. p. Tho. q. 20. ar. 3. dif. 2. Simplicitèr est dicendum, quod ista satisfactio est condigna & infallibilis. Suar. in 3. p. Tho. to. 4. disp. 48. sect. 3. Bell. d. Indulg. li. 2. c. 9 , appeareth, because no fasting is able infallibly to prevent or remove temporal plagues, 2. Sam. 12.22. But if Fasting were satisfactory in condignity, than it were injust with God to inflict or continue temporal plagues, after Satisfaction made by Fasting. S. Cyprian in the place objected, speaketh of satisfaction for sin itself b Cyprian. d. Laps. sect. 28. justis operibus incumbere, quibus peccata purgantur. Eleemosynis frequentèr insistere, quibus à morte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , and not for the temporal pain. And by Satisfaction, he understandeth deprecant Satisfaction, not compensant c 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Nec Dominum graviter offensum, longa & 〈◊〉 paenitentia deprecetur. Ib. sect. 24. jejunijs, fletibus, planctibus, Dominum deprecari, 〈◊〉 ad Dominum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 criminis, 〈◊〉 doloribus exprimentes; 〈◊〉 deprecemur. . But to argue from appeasing God's anger, by way of deprecation, to condign Satisfaction, is most rude and inconsequent. Jesuit. The second Proposition: Many Saints endured more penalties and afflictions in this life, than were necessary for the recompensing of the temporal: pains due to their sins: The blessed Virgin never committed actual sin, witness Ambros. Serm. ult. in Psal. 118. Aug. d. Nat. & Grat. c. 36. Saint Ambrose, terming her, ab omni 〈◊〉 labe peccati. And Saint Augustine, saying, Plus gratiae ei collatum est ad vincendum ex omni parte peccatum: Yet she endured many afflictions, as her many journeys, specially her banishment into Egypt, her standing at the foot of the Cross, when the sword of sorrow pierced thorough her heart; besides her many voluntary fastings and prayings, and other penitential works, which were daily practised in the course of her most holy life. Saint john the Luc. 1. v. 8. Greg. in ca 2. job. Baptist, what a pure and immaeulate course of life held he from his infancy, in the wilderness? Never committed any great sins, yea, scarce so much as light sins, as the Fathers teach; gathering their opinion of this his sanctity from the Scripture. And yet extremely penitential was he in his continual fasting, praying, lying on the ground, enduring cold, wind, and weather, his wearing continually a rough hair cloth, whereof S. Paulinus writes, Vestis erat curui setis compacta Cameli, Contra luxuriam molles duraret ut artus, Arceretque graues compuncto corpore somnos. What a mighty Mass of superabounding Satisfactions, were gathered from the life of this Saint alone? The Prophets of the Old Testament, What afflictions did they endure? (which Saint Paul gathers together in Ad Hebr. 11.38. the eleventh Chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews) being nevertheless, men of most holy life, innocent, and without any grievous sins, that the world was unworthy of them. As also the Apostles, whose labours were intolerable, specially such, as Saint Paul records, endured by himself; 1. Cor. 4. 2. Cor. 18. who yet after Baptism (in which, his sins were fully and certainely-remitted) never did grievously offend God. The labours and torments of Martyrs were extreme, Cypr. li. 4. Epist. 2. and yet any the least Martyrdom is sufficient to satisfy for any great multitude of offences, Quoad Reatum Aug. tract. 84. in johan. culpae & poenae, of whose merits, the Church (in the Primitive times) did make most account; to whom afterwards succeeded another kind of Martyrdom, Horrore quidem mitius, sed diuturnitate molestius, Of holy Bernard. Serm. 4. in Cantica. Confessors, specially of many most holy Eremites. These manifold afflictions endured by Saints (far above the measure of the temporal penalty, which after the eternal, was graciously remitted, did remain due to their offences) did not perish, nor were forgotten, but were laid up in the memory of God. ANSWER. In this Section, two things are affirmed by the Adversary: First, That many Saints, to wit, the B. Virgin, S. john Baptist, the Prophets, the holy Apostles, the Martyrs, Confessors, and Eremites, endured many more penalties in this world, than were necessary, for the expiating and recompensing the temporal pain due to their sins: And the reason or proof hereof is, Some of these were free from Actual sin, Venial, and Mortal; others were guilty of no mortal sin. Secondly, The superabundant Passions of these Saints perished not, but was laid up in the memory of God. I answer: It is a manifest untruth, that any of these Saints were free from all sin: For S. john speaking in the person of all the Elect, saith, 1. joh. 1. 8. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us: vers. 10. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his Word is not in us a August. Enchir. ca 64. Quamuis de illis sit vera citer dictum, Quotquot Spiritu Dei aguntur, high filij sunt Dei: sic tamen Spiritu Dei excitantur, 〈◊〉 tanquam filij Dei proficiunt ad Deum, ut etiam 〈◊〉 suo, maximè aggravante corruptibili corpore, tanquam filij hominum, quibusdam motibus humanis deficiant ad 〈◊〉, & ideo 〈◊〉. Idem, d. Civit. Dei, li. 14. ca 9 Tunc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ista erit, quando peecatum nullum in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nunc verò satis benè vivitur, si sine crimine, sine peccato autem qui vivere se existimat, non id agit ut peccatum non habeat, sed ut veniam non accipiat. Idem, sup. Psal. 44. c. 2. Maria ex Adam mortua est propter peccatum, etc. Idem, d. Pecc. Merit. li. 2. ca 30. 〈◊〉 indeclinabilem fidei sententiam, solus unus est, qui sine peccato mortuus est, etc. . Also the B. Virgin rejoiced in God her Saviour: and he is jesus, a Saviour, to save his people from their sins. She used the Lords Prayer, together with other Believers, Act. 1.14. But one Petition of this Prayer is, Forgive us our Trespasses, Matth. 6. 12. Lastly, the sacred Scripture teacheth not, that any of these Saints were free from all sin, neither is there any other sufficient Argument to confirm this Assertion. And S. Augustine a Idem, c. duas Epist. Pelag. lib. 4. cap. 4. Pati mortem sine meritis mortis de uno solo Mediatore Catholica fides est. saith, It is against the Catholic Faith, that any besides Christ suffered Death, without the merit of Death. But if it were yielded, that these Saints were free from all sin; and that they endured more Pressures and Calamities in the World, than themselves deserved; and that their superabundant Passions did not perish, but were laid up in the memory of God: it followeth not, that their Passions were reserved, to raise a Treasury of Satisfactions, for redemption of other men's sins. But even as God in this World appointed these Afflictions, to be matter and occasion of greater Sanctity and Virtue in them, and proposed these Persons to be Lights and Examples to others, in their Actions and Sufferings: so likewise he laid up these things in the Treasury of his eternal Memory, that he might crown and dignify them above other Saints, with a large augmentation of Glory and Bliss, Matth. 19.28. So we see upon how weak and rotten ground is built this imaginary Castle of Church-Treasure. Jesuit. The third Proposition, the Treasure of the Church consisteth principally of the superabundant Satisfaction of Christ, who did endure much more than was necessary, for the Redemption of man; wherewith are joined the Satisfaction of Saints. We join the Satisfaction of Saints with the Satisfaction of Christ's in the Church's Treasure, not because we believe the Blood of Christ to be insufficient alone to satisfy for sins, Nisi velut arescentis & exhausti defectus aliunde suppleatur & sufficiatur (as mistakingly, not to say calumniously, Calvin reporteth of Calu Institut. li. 3. ca 5. us.) For Pope Clement the sixth (whom Protestants accuse Clemens Sextus in Constit. unigenit. as the first Author of this Treasure) affirms even in his constitution about this matter, That the Blood of Christ is of an infinite price, and every drop thereof sufficient to cancel the sins of the whole World. ANSWER. First, If the Blood of Christ is of infinite price, To what purpose do you conjoin the blood of a 〈◊〉. Sum. li. 5. d. Remiss. & Disp. Filius Dei non solum guttan, sed totum sanguinem fudit pro peccatoribus, & praeterea Martyres pro fide & Ecclesia sanguinem suum fuderunt, & ultra quod peccassent puniti fuerunt, restat quod in dicta effusione, omne peccatum punitum est, & 〈◊〉 sanguinis effusio, est Thesaurus, in 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae repositus, cuius claues Ecclesia inde, quando vult potest scrinium aperire & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cui voluerit communicare remissiones & indulgentias fidelibus faciendo, & sic peccatum non remanet impunitum, quia punitum fuit in Filio Dei, & Martyribus sanctis suis. Martyrs, and the voluntary Passions of Creatures, to the same? For is any man so foolish, as to add the Light of a Candle to the clear Light of the Sun? If you answer, They are conjoined, not in equality, but by Subordination; I demand, Where hath the Son of God appointed this? And if you couple humane Satisfactions to Christ's expiation of venial sin b Antovin. Sum. p. 1. Tit. 10. ca 3. Potest ut videtur per Indulgentiam in quantum habet rationem cuiusdam absolutionis, remitti culpa 〈◊〉. Palud. 4. d. 20. q. 4. Viguer. Instit. c. 〈◊〉. vers. 22. , and the temporal pain of mortal; you may upon as good warrant do it, for the atonement of the eternal punishment: because (according to your former Tenet) by mystical Union, the Actions and Passions of the Members, are the Actions and Passions of the Head c Nazarius, in 3. p. Tho. q. 1. ar. 2. contr. 7. Praemittendum est, Christum esseveluti Hypostasin 〈◊〉 corporis mystici, quod est Ecclesia, etc. Constat autem, Actiones & Passiones, tam capitis quam membrorum, eidem Hypostasi tribui, cuius sunt caput & membra. Ibid. Quia per gratiam ex Christi capitis influxu receptam, constituimur illius viva membra, quorum membrorum, Christus non solum est Caput: sed etiam suppositum, ut ante diximus: ideò hoc ipso, quod nos meremur, & satisfacimus, ut membra Christo Capiti unita, & ut existentia in Christo, tanquam in communi supposito, dicimur mereri, & satisfacere de toto rigore iustitiae; quia secundum 〈◊〉 considerationem non tam nos meremur & satisfacimus in Christo, quam Christus ut Caput, & ut mysticum suppositum, meretur & satisfacit in nobis. Ibid. Si mystici corporis Ecclesiae membra considerentur, quatenus simul cum Christo capite, unum integrum & perfectum Ecclesiae corpus constituunt, dici verè & absolutè potest, corpus hoc mysticum per suum caput satisfecisse, de toto rigore justitiae, & superabundasse: non ob eam tantum causam, quod Christus qui Caput est mystici corporis, sufficienter & de toto rigore 〈◊〉 pro membris satisfecerit, fed ea etiam ratione, quod membrorum satisfactiones Christi Capitis satisfactioni conjunctae, & ut una completa satisfactio, cum ea consideratae perfectionem accipiunt, ita ut considerata satisfactione ex parte Christi, cum extensione secundum suae virtutis participationem, ad omnes & singulas membrorum satisfactiones à Christi satisfactione dependentes, dicatur Christus, tam 〈◊〉 se, quam in membris suis satisfacere, mereri, jejunare, etc. consideratis verò membrorum satisfactionibus, ut satisfactione Christi conjunctis, dicantur membra sufficienter, & ex toto rigore justitiae 〈◊〉 pro peccatis, quatenus sunt offensa Dei. Sic enim quasi consequenter, satisfactio Christi membris tribuitur, & ex parte membrorum se tenet, & cum eorum satisfactionibus computatur. ; and consequently, they may partake virtue of satisfying, with the Passions of Christ. Secondly, Although one drop of Christ's Blood, even when he was Circumcised, and whipped, might have been sufficient for man's Redemption, if God had so ordained; yet presupposing the Divine Decree, and Ordinance, to the contrary, one drop of Christ's Blood is not sufficient to make Satisfaction for our sins; because Sufficiency in this kind, is to be measured by the Wisdom, Will, and Acceptation of the ordainer; which requireth as much as himself appointed, and decreed should be; and neither more, nor less a Durand. 3. Dist. 20. q. 2. Potuisset si voluisset reparare humanam naturam, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & reparando per satisfactionem potuisset pro satisfa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, puri hommis, etc. 〈◊〉. 3. d. 20. q. 2. 〈◊〉, quod non est 〈◊〉 Deo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉, 3. d. 19 〈◊〉 20. 〈◊〉. 4. Conclus. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Redemptione, quod bonitas illius 〈◊〉 cuius 〈◊〉 detinetur: Sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a Diabolo potuit acceptare pro offensa illata per hominem, 〈◊〉 modi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Et 〈◊〉 intelligenda 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christi sufficere potuit pro 〈◊〉 totius humani generis. . It is remarkable, how these Roman Higlars, with one 〈◊〉, both magnify and debase the price of Christ's Blood. For one while they say, That one drop thereof is sufficient to satisfy for all the sins of the World b Extra. d. Poen. & Remiss. 〈◊〉 6. Non guttam sanguinismodicam quae tamen propter unionem ad verbum, pro Redemptione totius humani generis 〈◊〉. Angelus, 〈◊〉. Sum. v. Indulgentia, n. 9 Cuius minima gutta 〈◊〉, vel sudoris, sufficeret ad Expiationem omnium peccatorum, quae unquam fuerunt perpetrata, vel perpetrabuntur, quia eius 〈◊〉 nihil sunt omnia. ; and then again they infer, That it is fit it should be eeked out with an addition of Saintly Satisfactions c Nugnus, in Addit. 3. part. Tho. q. 20. ar. 3. dif. 1. , to raise a Stock, to redeem Souls out of Purgatory. Else why stint they not this Treasure upon the main Revenue of Christ's Passions only? Their detected meaning is; Christ's Blood alone, yea, one drop thereof, is all-sufficient to save Souls; but the same is insufficient to impregnate his Holiness his Coffers d 〈◊〉. Paris, in Henrico 3. Romanorum loculos impregnare. Ibid. pag. 316. Magister Otto Papae Nuntius, Literas recitavit, in quibus Papa allegavit Scandalum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae, & opprobrium vetustissimum, notam scilicet Concupiscentiae, quae radix dicitur omnium malorum, etc. Sed quoniam Scandali huius & infamiae, Romana paupertas causa est, debent boni filij matris inopiam sublevare, etc. : The Blood of Christ hath abundant virtue in it, to cleanse sins; but it must emendicate Virtue, to fill Purses, and to satisfy the Avarice of the Horseleeches of Rome e Angelus 〈◊〉. Sum. 〈◊〉. Indulg. nu. 2. Qui plus dat & magis laborat, caeteris paribus, plus habebit. Illi qui plus dat, & plus laborat, correspondet annus efficacieoris Poenitentiae. 〈◊〉, Bologninus, tr. d. Indulg. n. 85. Sanctissimus Dominus Innocentius, concessit Indulgentiam, quod quicunque dederit Decem pro constructione Ecclesiae remittatur ei quinta pars peccatorum suorum: aut si quis offerat uno ictu quadraginta, sint remissa omnia peccata. 〈◊〉, d. Indulg. lib. 1. cap. 16. Si quis visitat Ecclesiam, tamen ob paupertatem non facit Eleemosynam, an lucretur? Resp. Quod non lucratur, & ista (Opinio) est communis. Lucratur augmentum gratiae vel gloriae, sed non remissionem Poenae, seu adeptionem Indulgentiae. 〈◊〉. v. Indulg. n. 19 Navar. 〈◊〉. Hist. Italiae, lib. 13. pag. 489. Leo. Laurentij Puccij quatuor Sanctorum Cardinalis, secutus Concilium, nullo temporum & locorum habito delectu, per universum Orbem amplissima privilegia, quibus non modo vivis delictorum veniam consequendi, sed & defunctorum animas eius ignis in quo delicta expiari dicuntur, poenis eximendi facultatem pollicebatur, promulgarat: quae quia pecunia tantum à mortalibus extorquendi gratia concedi notum erat, & à quaestoribus huic negotio praefectis impudenter administrabantur, magnam plerisque in locis indignationem, offensionemque concitarant, & 〈◊〉 in Germania ubi à multis ex eius ministris huiusmodi mortuos poenis liberandi facultas, paruo praetio vendi, vel in Cauponum Tabernis aliae subijci cernebantur. . Therefore good cause had Calvin, and so have we, to vindicate the honour of our Saviour, and to protest against your derogating from the merit of his Blood: which impiety, although you endeavour to colour your Doctrine, yet the practice of your people (by you tolerated) madding upon the merits of Saints, and contemning the merits of Christ, accounting the same dry and exhaust, is intolerable and execrable. Jesuit. The Reasons of this Conjunction, are these three: First, That Poenall works of Saints, as they are satisfactory, be not without fruit; for being satisfactory, and not having the effect of satisfaction, in their own innocent and undefiled persons, they will be without this fruit, and effect, except they be applied unto others that are poor and needy, in whom satisfaction is scant, and the debt of temporal, abounds. ANSWER. First, It cannot be proved by Divine Revelation, that Saints have superabundant Satisfactions: for whatsoever affliction and pressure they endured in this life, was necessary or expedient to set forth God's glory, to confirm and consummate their own virtue a August. c. Faust. lib. 22. cap. 20. Nullus hominum est tanta 〈◊〉 preditus, cui non 〈◊〉 necessaria tentatio tribulationis, vel ad perficiendam vel ad confirmandam vel ad probandam virtutem nisi forte nec Paulum, etc. , to edify the Church of God, and to make themselves the better capable of that extraordinary glory and bliss, which was prepared as a Crown, for such as transcend others in virtue b Greg. Mor. lib. 3. cap. 1. Ex dolore verberis aucta est gloria remunerationis. Secondly, If they had superaboundant Satisfactions, that is, If they endured Afflictions and Trials, more than were necessary to satisfy for the Temporary pain of their personal sins; these superabundant Passions should not want a sufficient fruit, and effect, 2. Cor. 4. 17. 2. Tim. 4. 8. And the want of the proper fruit of Satisfaction, (being recompensed with a large increase, and surplusage in another kind) can be no dishonour to God, or loss to them: For even as it is in Prayer, although the most proper fruit and effect thereof, is to obtain the thing requested, of God: and yet if God deny the particular request, 2. Cor. 12. a just man's Prayer, considered as it is Prayer, wanteth not the fruit, if God otherwise bestow that which is equivalent to the thing requested a Bernard. Quadrag. Serm. 5. Nemo vestrum fratres parui pendeat Orationem suam, dico enim quod ipse ad quem oramus, non paruipendet eam, & unum è duobus sperare possumus, quoniam aut dabit quod petimus, aut quod nobis viderit esse utilius. . So likewise if a man could superabound in satisfying for his own sin, his Satisfaction were not fruitless, if God make requital by any other kind of benefit, equal or transcending the proper fruit and effect thereof. Jesuit. The second, is the glory of Christ, whose merits were so powerful, as to purchase to the Church of God, such excellent and admirable Saints, so pure of life, so perfect in Penance, as their satisfactions might suffice to pay the debt of temporal pain due unto others. ANSWER. If one should affirm, It is more for the glory of Christ to have his merits so potent, as to purchase to himself a People, and Inheritance, which in this life, is perfectly innocent, and just, needing no remission of sins, than to purchase a people, carrying always about with them the remainders of sin; he should not honour Christ, but prove himself a liar, 1. joh. 1. 8, 10. So likewise to affirm, That it is a greater honour to Christ, to have his merits advanced so far, as that by the virtue thereof, men are made satisfiers of Divine justice, together with Christ, carries a show of honouring Christ, but it is in truth, a sacrilegious error. And Papists may as well affirm, that it is for Christ's greater glory, to make men subordinate justifiers, Redeemers, or whatsoever else their vertiginous fancy shall suggest. Jesuit. The third reason is, To make men love the Church and society of Saints; whereby they come to be partakers of the abundancy of her treasures, to pay their grievous debts. This is that comfortable Article which the Apostles put down in the Creed, to be known of every one, The Communion of Saints: This is that, which made King David exult, saying, I am partaker with all them Psal. 118. v. 63. that fear thee and keep thy Commandments. And in this respect the Apostle exhorteth us, Gratias agamus Col. 1.12. Deo Patri, qui dignos nos fecit in partem sortis Sanctorum in lumine. This is that which the same Apostle writes to the Corinthians, exhorting them to be liber all towards Titus and Luke; For the present, 1. Cor. 8.14. let your abundance (in temporal goods) supply their want, that 〈◊〉 their abundance (in pious works) may be a supplement unto your want. This hope to supply in this kind the spiritual needs of Christians, by the abundance of his sufferings, made Saint Paul so much rejoice in them; I joy (saith he) in my Collos. 1.24. 2. Cor. 12.15. sufferings for you, and I make full the things that want of the sufferings of Christ in my flesh, for his Body, which is the Church. And again, Cupio impendi, & super impendi pro vobis: Out of which words, Origen gathers, that Saint Paul (as a kind of Origen. Hom. 10. in Num. Victim or Sacrifice) did expiate the sins of others, not satisfying for the injury against God, nor for the eternal punishment due, but for one outward and transitory effect of sin, to wit, the debt of temporal pain. In this sense also Saint Augustine interpreteth the former Aug. in Psal. 61. words of the Apostle, Of suffering in his body the things wanting of the sufferings of Christ: Patitur Christus in membris suis, id est, in nobis ipsis, ad Communem hanc quasi Rempublicam. Nam quisque pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus. ANSWER. The true love of the Church, and of the Saints, is grounded upon verity, and not upon Romish Fables, 2. Epist. john vers. 1. And Communion of Saints, in the Apostles Creed, in respect of the living, is Copartnership in Faith, in Verity, in the bond of Love, in pious and charitable Offices and Actions, and in the manifold graces of Christ: and towards the defunct, it is Communion of Love, Imitation, Hope, and expectation of the same Glory a Aug. d. Temp. Serm. 181. cap. 13. . But neither Scripture, nor Fathers teach, That the living Saints have Communion with the Saints defunct, by partaking their superabundant Satisfactions, Eph. 4. 15, etc. 1. joh. 1.3. Rom. 12.4. The saying of David, Psal. 119.63. I am partaker with all them that fear thee and keep thy Commandments a 〈◊〉. in Com. Aequne ego inquit, atque illi te timeo, 〈◊〉 etiam mandata tua obseruo. Vnus e. nim ex illorum numero egosum, qui te maximè venerantur atque observant. , proveth, That this holy man made righteous Persons his Friends and Associates, and that he shunned the fellowship of the wicked, Psal. 101.6. But of Communion of Satisfactions, he speaketh not a word. Also what a miserable inference is this, David was partaker of all them which feared God, and kept his Commandments: Ergo, He was Partaker of their Satisfactions, and those to God-ward. Is there no other bond, or Act of Fellowship but this only? Have all they which fear God and keep his Commandments, according to the state of this life, superabundant Satisfactions? Yea, How appeareth it that David had need of other men's Satisfactory deeds? For he was a man after Gods own heart, full of Grace, and abounding in works of mortification, Psal. 6.6. & 102.9. & Psal. 35. 13, yea of that rank, to wit, a great Prophet b Read before the jesuits words, Pag. 505. , which our Adversary himself saith, Receive not, but Communicate superabundant Satisfactions to others wanting them. S. Paul's text, Col. 1.12. speaketh of Partnership of heavenly inheritance c Caietan. in Com. Sors Sanctorum, haereditas est Sanctorum, & est sensus ad habendam partem Haereditatis Sahctorum, hoc est ad participandum haereditatem Sanctorum, quae appellatur sors, quia non ex proprio consilio, non ex proprijs meritis, sed velut sort, hoc est divino munere obtigit ita illis, quod non aliis. Dyonis. Carthus. ib. Sortis Sanctorum id est haereditatis Electorum, etc. Lyra, 〈◊〉 Card. etc. , and not of Satisfactions. The next place, 2. Cor. 8. 14. is expounded by Pontificians themselves, of almsdeeds in this life; and the sense (according to Cardinal Caietan d Caietan. Sup. 2. Cor. 8.14. Ecce aequalitas, vos abundatis temporalibus facultatibus, Sancti in Jerusalem indigent, ad aequalitatem res reducitur, si vestra abundantia sucurrit illorum indigentiae Dioni. Carthus. ibid. ) is, You Corinthians abound with temporal goods, the Saints of Jerusalem are in want: the matter will be reduced to an equality, if your plenty supply their indigency. But if with Hugo Carensis and Lyra, the latter part of the words should be expounded of spirituals, it belongeth to such spiritual gifts as are communicable from one member of the Church Militant in this life, to another, as instruction, exhortation, special prayer, etc. and not to Satisfactions to be made to God by one for another, much less of applying such satisfactions of the deceased to the living, or to others deceased. The places, Col. 1. 24. 2. Cor. 12. 15. are forced by Romists to speak to purpose which the Apostle intended not. S. Paul saith, Col. 1. 24. Ireioyce in my sufferings for you, and fill up or accomplish, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, those things which are behind or wanting, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, e AEstius. in Com. Ea quae reliqua sunt passionum, id est quae posterius adhuc restant persoluenda. of the afflictions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, of Christ, in my flesh, 〈◊〉 his body, which is the Church. The first part of these words proveth that S. Paul suffered for the Collossians: But because he might suffer for the confirmation of their faith, or as an example of patience a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Col. 1. Pro vobis id est pro confirmatione vestri. Aug. d. Gen. ad. lit. li. 3. ca 15. Et exempla Demonstranda sunt patientiae ad exempla aliorum. , or by way of persecution, because he preached the Gospel to them b Lira. Col. 1. Licet non predicauerit cis 〈◊〉, predicavit tamen eis per suos Discipulos. , and other Churches, it cannot be concluded, that he suffered to make satisfaction for their sins. Secondly, The next words conclude not Satisfaction: for Christ's Afflictions and Passions are of two kinds; Some Personal, and in his own flesh; Some, By Sympathy and compassion in his members c Lira. ib. Passiones Christi dupliciter dicuntur, uno modo in corpore proprio, in quo suftinuit famem, sitim, & mortem, & sic accipiendo, nihil erat ibi ad implendum: alio modo prout patitur in membris suis, qui sunt fideles, secundum quod dicit Act. 9 Saulê, Saulê, quid me persequeris. Leo. serm. ult. d. Pass. Domini. Passio Domini inquit usque ad finem perducitur mundi, & sicut in Sanctis suis ipse honoratur, ipse diligitur, & in pauperibus ipse pascitur, ipse vestitur: ita in omnibus qui pro iustitia adversa tollerant, ipse compatitur, etc. Aug. d. Agon. Christi. ca 7. Cruciatus corporis, malas animas miserabiliter affligit, bonos autem fortiter purgat. Anselm. in Coloss. 1.29. In carne Christi quam virgo peperit, nihil passionum deest, sed omnes in illa passiones sunt impletae: sed adhuc restat pars passionum eius in mea carne, quas quotidiè tollero pro universali corpore eius quod est Ecclesia. Si enim ab eruditione fidelium cessarem, has passiones ab infidelibus non sustinerem. . The first are satisfactory, the second are exemplary, purgative, probative, or for the edifying of the Church d Theodor Sup. Colos. ca 1. Divinus quoque Apostolus varias perpessiones pro ipso tolleravit, & lubenter sustinuit Gaudio enim inquit in passionibus pro vobis, sciebat enim vitam ex iis procurari. Dixit autem se adimplere ea quae desunt afflictionum Christi, ut qui quod restat impleat & pro iis perpessiones sustineat. Restabat autem ut predicaret gentibus & munificum solutis suppeditatorem ostenderet. . S. Paul supplied not, or perfected not the first, Esa. 63.3. for than Christ's sufferings upon the Cross, were imperfect: but both S. Paul, and all other just persons which patiently bear affliction, and endure the Cross, supply and accomplish that which is yet wanting in Christ, as he is considered in a mystical union to his Church. Christ saith to Saul, Act. 9.4. Saul, Saul, Why persecutest thou me: and v. 5. I am jesus whom thou persecutest. S. Augustine e Aug. in Psal. 30. Conc. 1. Totus Christus, caput & corpus, caputille saluator corporis, qui iam a scendit in coelum, corpus autem Ecclesia quae laborat in terra. Hoc autem corpus nisi connexione Charitatis adhaereret capiti suo, ut unus fieret ex capite & corpore, non de Coelo quendam persecutorem corripiens diceret: Saulê, Saulê, quid me persequeris? Idem. Psal. 140. Vos inquit Apostolus estis corpus Christi & membra. Si ergo illi caput, nos corpus, unus homo loquitur, sive caput loquatur, sive membra, unus Christus loquitur, & capitis est proprium loqui etiam in persona membrorum. and S. Gregory f Greg. Praef. Moral. ca 11. Redemptor noster unam se personam cum sancta Ecclesia quam assumpsit exhibuit. Theophil. Com. Coloss. 1. 24. Adeo diligit vos, ut tanquam non sufficiant priores passiones & afflictiones, post mortem etiam patiatur in meo corpore, nondum enim contentus est morte, sed adhuc inmumera facit. Non igitur seipsum 〈◊〉 Paulus 〈◊〉 dicit, sed monstrare volens quod Christus etiamnum pro ipsis curam gerat. say, That Christ and the Church are one mystical Body. Therefore when the members suffer, the head suffers, and the afflictions of the members, are the afflictions of Christ, 2. Cor. 1. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 12. It is also remarkable, that not only the Fathers, but the mayor part of Popish Doctors a Aquin. 3. q. 48. Art. 5. ad. 2. Dicendum quod 〈◊〉 Sanctorum proficiunt Ecclesiae, non quidem per modum redemptionis, sed per modum exempli, & 〈◊〉 secundum illud, 2. Cor. Sive tribulamur pro vestra exhortatione & salute. Lira. in Colos. 1.24. 〈◊〉. ib. Adam Sasbot. in Epist. Paul ad Col. cap. 1. Christus non omnia perfecit in corpore suo: non enim sufficit passio ipsius ad conversionem gentium, si non praedicetur Euangelium: Quod ergo hic deest passionum Christi, ego adimpleo monendo scilicet, docendo, praedicando, quod dum sedulo studeo facere, multa patior dura & gravia, imo vincula & carceres. Illud (pro corpore eius) hunc habet sensum, ut corpus ipsius quod est Ecclesia perficiatur: hic videtur germanus esse sensus huius loci. B justinian. ibid. Paulutius. ibid. Guilliand. sup. Hebr cap. 10. , expound this Scripture in such sort, that it serveth not at all to maintain Papal Indulgences. And Estius b Estius. in Com. ibid. Hinc Theologi quidam putant, ostendi Sanctorum passiones fidelibus prodesse ad remissionem paenarum, quae vocatur indulgentia. Quae quidem Doctrina, Etsi Catholica & Apostolica sit, atque aliunde satis probetur: Ex hoc tamen Apostoli loco, nobis non videtur admodum solide statui posse. a modern Pontifician saith, That whereas 〈◊〉 of his part strain the Text of S. Paul, to prove Satisfactions and Indulgences, himself is of mind, that the said Doctrine cannot effectually be proved by this place. The other place, 2. Cor. 12. 15. (I will very gladly spend and be spent for you:) or as the Rhemists translate, (I most gladly will bestow, and will myself moreover be bestowed for your souls,) affordeth no argument for Satisfactions and Pardons. Caietan, Estius, justinian, and other Popish expositors themselves, deliver the sense of this Text in manner following c Estius. Com. 2. Cor. 12.15. Equidem inquit, lubentissime non solum, ut pater quaecunque habeo vobis impendam, id est impendere paratus sum, tantum abest ut quae vestra sunt quaeram: verum etiam si sit opus, pro vita, & salute vestra, ipse expendar, hoc est, meipsum in consumptionem, & mortem dare paratus, iuxta illud Saluatoris, bonus pastor animam suam dat pro ovibus suis. . S. Paul manifesteth his paternal affection to the Corinthians, saying, I am ready not only as a Father, to bestow all that I have upon you (so far am I from seeking any thing of yours) but also to spend my life for you. Now by what Art or Engine can Papists extort Pardons or Satisfactions out of this Text? doth it follow, that if Saint Paul be ready to spend himself, life, and state, for the good of his flock: therefore there is a rich stock, and treasure of superabundant Passions and Satisfactions laid up by S. Paul, to be spent by the Corinthians at their need? Surely our Adversary intended rather to deride the world, than to give men satisfaction, when he presented us with such inconsequent stuff. But the jesuit secondeth his former inference by a testimony of Origen. I answer: Origen d Origen. sup. Num. Hom. 10. Quomodo autem & filij eius auferunt peccata Sanctorum, id est Apostoli & Martyrs, si poterimus ex Scripturis divinis probare tentabimus. Audi primo Paulum dicentem, libenter enim (inquit) expendam & expendar pro animabus vestris. Pro iis ergo quibus scribebat expendi se, & immolari dicit Apostolus. Hostia autem cum immolatur ad hoc immolatur, ut corum pro quibus iugulatur peccata purgentur. De Martyribus artem scribit Iohannes Apostolus in Apoccalipsi, quiá animae eorum qui iugulati sunt propter nomen Domini jesu adsistant Altari: qui autem adsistit Altari ostenditur fungi Sacerdotis officio. Sacerdotis autem officium est, pro populi Supplicare peccatis: unde ego vereor ne, forte ex quo Martyres non fiunt, & hostiae Sanctorum non offeruntur pro peccatis nostris, peccatorum nostrorum remissionem non mereamur. in the place objected, speaketh of purging sin itself, by the passions of Martyrs, and not of the temporal mulct, or pain of sin only. But the blood of Martyrs purgeth not sin itself by way of condign Satisfaction (our Adversaries being witnesses a Zerula. d. Indulg. lib. 1. cap. 11. Per Indulgentiam non remittitur culpa peccati, nec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in temporalem, sed sola temporalis remittitur, tota vel pars. Aquin. Quodlib. 2. ar. 66. & 1.2. q. 87. ar. 3.4. & 4. sent. d. 46. q. 1. ar. 3. Caietan. Opusc. to. 2. q. 4. ) but at the uttermost, by way of Deprecation; now Deprecation and Satisfaction properly taken, are of diverse natures. The place of S. Augustine a Aug. super Psalm. 61 Sed debemus intelligere personam nostram, personam Ecclesiae nostrae, personam corporis Christi. Vnusenim homo cum capite & corpore suo Iesus Christus saluator corporis & membrorum corporis, duo in carne una, & in voce una, & in passione una, & cum transierit iniquitas in requie una, passiones itaque Christi non in solo Christo, imò passiones Christi non nisi in Christo. Si enim Christum intelligas caput & corpus passiones Christi non nisi in Christo. Si autem Christum intelligas solum caput, passiones Christi, non nisi in solo Christo, imo in solo capite, unde dicit quoddam membrum eius Paulus Apostolus, ut suppleam quae desunt pressurarum Christi in carne mea? Si ergo in membris Christi es quicunque homo, Quisquis haec audis, quisquis haec non audis, sed tamen audis si in membris Christi es quicquid pateris ab eis qui non sunt in membris Christi, deerat passionibus Christi. Ideo additur quia 〈◊〉, mensura implens non supersundens. Tantum ergo pateris quantum ex passionibus suis inferendum erat universae passioni Christi, qui passus est in capite nostro, & patitur in membris suis, id est, in nobis ipsis ad communem hauc quasi Rempublicam. Nam quisque pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus & pro posse virium nostrarum quasi canonem passionum inferimus. is strained against his meaning, for this Father speaketh of all the members of Christ which suffer for their Master's cause: But in our Adversary's Tenet, all that suffer for Christ have not superabundant Satisfactions, but only some. And this Father is so far from maintaining works of Supererogation, as that he saith, Pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus, & pro posse virium nostrarum, quasi canonem passionum inferimus, etc. According to our small measure we pay that which we are obliged unto, and according to our power we cast in, as it were, the stint of our passions: but they which pay a stint, and render that whereunto of right they are obliged, have not superaboundant Passions, or works of Supererogation. Jesuit. This was the practice of the Primitive Church, which at the petition of constant confessors in prison, did release the penalties that sinners were enjoined to perform, to satisfy none only the discipline of the Church, but also the wrath of God (after the remission of sin) still continuing unto the infliction of temporal pain, as appeareth by the testimony of S. Cyprian. And that this relaxation of temporal Cypr. li. 3. ep. 15. pain was done by applying the abundant satisfaction of holy Confessors, and designed Martyrs, unto the poenitents that received indulgence, at their intercessions, appears by Tertullian: For he falling from the Church into the errors of Montanus, whereof one was, That for Christians sinning after Baptism, there was no remission of sin, refutes the Catholic custom of remitting penalties unto sinners for the merits of Martyrs: speaking thus, Let it suffice the Martyrs, that they have 〈◊〉. lib. d. pudicitia cap. 22. canceled and satisfied their own sins. It is ingratitude or pride for one prodigally to cast abroad upon others that, which as a great benefit was bestowed upon him. And speaking unto the Martyr, saith, If thou be a sinner, how can the oil of thy lamp suffice both for thee and me? By which haereticall impugnation appears, that the Catholic Doctrine than was, that men might satisfy one for another, and that the abundant satisfactions of some, that suffered exceedingly as Martyrs, were applied for the Redemption of some others more remiss and negligent, not from eternal, but only temporal punishment. ANSWER. You are an unfaithful Relatour of the practice of the Primitive Church, which was as followeth. After foul and enormous known offences, committed by Christians, and especially, after denying the Faith, or Sacrificing to Idols, offenders were put to a grievous and long Penance a Concil. Ancyran. Concil. 1. Nicen. Burchard. lib. 19 Gratian. d. 28. c. Presbyter. & 35. q. ult. & 24. q. 1. & 16. q. 5. etc. . It fell out sometimes, that there was just reason, why the rigour of Penance should be mitigated, either in respect of the kind of duresse imposed, or in regard of the length and continuance. Which favour, the Bishops and Pastors of each Church (not the Roman only) had authority by the Canons, to grant as they saw just cause b Concil. Ancyran. can. 5. Concil. Nicen. 1. Can. 11. . This mitigation and relaxation of Penance, was called by the name of Pardon, and Indulgence c Cassand. Consult. ar. 12. d. Indulg. 〈◊〉 paenarum Canonicarum imminutio & relaxatio, indulgentia dicebatur. , and in the same, there was no buying or selling, no reference to Purgatory. Secondly, Whereas you pretend, that Pope's Pardons were in use in the Primitive Church, many of your own part, control your impudency, to wit, Durand d Durand. 4. d. 20. q 3. De indulgentijs pauca dici possunt per certitudinem, quia nec Seriptura express de 〈◊〉 loquitur, etc. Sancti etiam, Ambrose, Hilarius, Augustinus, Hieronymus, minime de eyes loquuntur. , Antonine e Antonin. Sum. Moral. p. 1. tit. 10. cap. 3. De indulgentijs nil expressè habemus in Sacra Scriptura, etc. Nec etiam ex dictis Anti quorum Doctorum seu modernorum. , Maior a Mayor 4. d. 20. q. 2. Difficile est modum indulgentiarum fundare authenticè 〈◊〉 Scriptura Sacra. In signum cuius, tres primi Doctores Ecclesiae, parum de isto modo Indulgentiarum locuti sunt. , Roffensis b Roffens. c. Luther. ar. 18. Nemo iam dubitat Orthodoxus an purgatorium sit, de quo tamen apud priscos, nulla vel quam rarissima 〈◊〉 mentio. Sed & Graecis, ad hunc usque diem, non est creditum purgatorium esse, legate qui velit Graecorum veterum Commentarios, & nullum quantum opinor vel quam 〈◊〉 de purgatorio sermonem inveniet; sed neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnes ac censim huius rei veritatem conceperunt. Cum ita que purgatorium tam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 receptum universae Ecclesiae fuerit, quisiam de Indulgentijs mirari potest quia in principio nascentis Ecclesiae nullus fuerit earum usus. . Angelus c 〈◊〉 v. Indulg. n. 18. de Clavasio, Cassander d Cassand. Consult. ar. 12. d. Indulg. . And 〈◊〉 e More. 4. Dist. 19 Alph. Castro. c. 〈◊〉. li 8. v. Indulg. Inter omnes res de quibus in hoc opere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est, quam minus apertè 〈◊〉 literae prodiderunt, & de qua minus vetusti scriptores dixerint. Apud 〈◊〉 nulla mentio Indulgentiarum. denies, That the Church hath any Treasury 〈◊〉 of the merits of Christ, and of the Saints. The 〈◊〉 is maintained by Angelus de Clavasio f Sum. Angel. v. Indulg. n. 9 Ego teneo cum Franci. d. Mairo in tractatu de Indulgent. quod cum 〈◊〉 Sanctorum sunt ultra condignum remunerata à Deo & sic exhausta, quod solum dantur ex merito Christi & passionis eius, cuius minima 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vel sudoris sufficeret ad expiationem omnium peccatorum quae unquam fuerunt perpetrata aut perpetrabuntur. . Cardinal 〈◊〉 saith, That indulgences are granted only for penance imposed by the Church, and so according to this opinion, they release people, only of saying a certain number of 〈◊〉, or from fasting certain hours, or from bestowing a few pence on the poor g 〈◊〉. Medin. d. Indulg. ca 14. Caietanus dixit Indulgentias dari tantam de impositis poenitentijs Caiet. Opusc. to. 1. tr. 8. q. 1. Ex hac opinione sequitur quod qui ab Hispania imo ab altero orbe Romam aut Hierosolymam indulgentiae plenariae lucrandae gratia profisiscatur non aliud habebit quam non dicendi tricies 〈◊〉 Angelicam, aut nummum tribuendi pauperibus libertatem, ita ut iam priori illi obligationi non astringatur, videmus hac illius opinione non minus Sacras indulgentias quibus nunc Ecclesia utitur, risui Haereticorum exponi, quam si omnino earum conferendarum potestas apertè negaretur. . And it was a common opinion in the days of Albertus h Albert. 4. d. 20. Ar. 17. , and Henricus de 〈◊〉 i Gand. Quodlibet. 15. Altisiodor. Sum. li. 4. d. Relap dicunt quidam quod relaxatio non valet quantum Ecclesia promittit: sed facit ut excitentur fideles ad dandum, & decipit eos Ecclesia. , that Pope's Pardons were only pious Frauds. What indulgence is it then for 〈◊〉 Pontificians to Father this Popish Cozenage upon the holy Apostles and Primitive Church? Thirdly, I have perused the place of S. Cyprian k Cypr. Epist. 15. li. 3. , objected by the Adversary, and two other Epistles l Li. 3. 16. & 18. Epist. of the like argument, wherein I find that the Martyrs entreated the Church for mitigation of Paenance imposed upon some offenders: but neither do the Martyrs themselves affirm, That they had made Satisfaction for the temporal pain of sin; neither did S. Cyprian, grant any other indulgence, than from the paenance enjoined by the Canons of the Church, in manner before rehearsed. But if the jesuit will obtain his purpose, he must prove out of Antiquity, that the Church in those days maintained a common treasure of Satisfactions, & an application of the same, to people defunct, whose souls were frying in Purgatory m 〈◊〉. in 4. d. 21. q. 1. ar. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Duran. Caietan, etc. Fatentur indulgentiarum usum esse rem novam quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Augustini, 〈◊〉, etc. aut id genus divorum patrum connitatur, sed solum pontificum 400. retroannis. , and that the Roman Pope was the only or principal Keybearer, and Barterer of this Treasury. I read a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. Eccles. 〈◊〉. Sequuntur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orationes, & primò oratio Sancti 〈◊〉 de singulis articulis passionis Domini, quam Anastasius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, dans 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicentibus 〈◊〉 dies indulgentiarum. Jbid. Innocentius Papa 〈◊〉, concessit 〈◊〉 hanc orationem sequentem denotè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 milia dienum 〈◊〉. Auevulnus lateris nostri 〈◊〉, etc. Ibid. 〈◊〉 orationem sequentem devotè dixcrit 〈◊〉 undecima milia annorum Indulgentiarum. Et per tot dies videbit beatam virginem Mariam, antè diem exitus sui, per quot annos 〈◊〉. Aue Domina Sancta Maria matter Dei Regina coeli, porta Paradisi, Domina 〈◊〉 Lux sempiterna imperatrix inferni: singularis & pura tu es virgo tu concepisti jesum Christum sine 〈◊〉: tu peperisti Creatorem Redemptorem ac Saluatorem mundi in quo non dubito, libera meab omnibus malis: & ora pro peccatis meis. Gerson. to. 2. d. Indulg. Consid. 10. Indulgentiarum concessio per tot milia 〈◊〉 dierum sed & annorum videtur difficulter sanabilis post remissionem aeternae poenae & commutationem in temporalem. Constat 〈◊〉 quod nec homo singularis in hac vita potest, aut debet ad tot annos 〈◊〉 poenitentiam agere cum non victurus sit per millessimam partem tot annorum & nemo ad impossibile obligatur: constat 〈◊〉 quod dum mundus finem habebit cessabit purgatorium & ex consequenti dies poenarum suarum. of certain Popes, that they granted pardons of 〈◊〉 hundred days, and of four thousand days, and of eleven thousand years, to all people which should rehearse S. 〈◊〉 his prayer, and the 〈◊〉 Maria, and one other Prayer to the blessed Virgin. Our Adversary is reputed learned by his own part, and perhaps he hath the gift of working wonders: I entreat him out of his own vast reading, or else from Father 〈◊〉 his storehouse, to parallel this Romish liberal practice with some history out of Antiquity b 〈◊〉. 4. d. 21. q. 2. ar. 1. 〈◊〉 verum habet quod indulgentiae valeant ad remissionem poenarum purgatorij? Fateor 〈◊〉 cum varie de hoc 〈◊〉 Doctores nullibi quod plenesatisfaciat me legisse. . And if he please further to demonstrate that the ancient Church had taxes c Taxa. Sacrae poenitentiariae. 〈◊〉. Sarisbur. Hanc orationem edidit Sixtus. pa. 4. & Concessit 〈◊〉 dicentibus coram imagine B. Mariae Virgins in sole 40000. annorum Indulgentiarum. and 〈◊〉 for sums of money upon particular crimes, to be solued to the Publicans of the Ecclesiastical Roman Tribute, in lieu of Pardons, or for absolution, he shall by disclosing to the world in what old Wall or Vault such uncouth jewels are to be found, highly advance the reputation of his Roman penance and pardons; and for my part he shall have leave to squeeze from his spiritual children what money he can, under that title: whereas in the mean time he and his fellows by false pretence of Antiquity, do but cheat their simple Lay-Catholikes of their coin, whereof no small sums are transported out of the Kingdom by such like glosses and tricks. Fourthly, for want of better testimony, the Obiector would prove the ancient use of Pardons, out of lapsed Tertullian: for if this man being fallen from the Church, opposed them, than they were in use in that age. I answer, the Adversary might have learned of Pamelius d Pammel. Annot. in Tertull. d. pudicitia. ca 22. nu. 192, , That the Indulgences which Tertullian oposed, were the same whereof Cyprian speaketh, Epist. 10, 11, 12. to wit, relaxation of Canonical censures, and paenance to Adulterers e Tertul. ib. Come 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & fornicatoribus à Martyre expostulas veniam. , and other notorious sins, upon the request of Martyrs being in prison, and yet alive. Now it seemed to this Father to be unlawful, both that the Martyrs should be Intreatours, and that the Church should grant Absolution a Delicti, culpae, Of the sin, crime, and fault itself, and not only of the temporal punishment. tosuch persons, or use relaxation of censures, imposed by the discipline of those times. And it is to be observed, that this Father speaketh of living Martyrs, and not of Martyrs defunct, and of releasing censures, and forgiving faults in this world only, and not in Purgatory. But the Adversary is so far from being able to prove Pope's pardons in Tertullians' days, that he cannot prove the same to have had any being in the days of Peter Lombard, or Hugo Victor b Vide Soto 4. d. 21. q. 1. ar. 3. Magister autem sententiarum, etc. Neque Hugo eius coaetaneus qui de Sacramentis scripsit de illis meminit. Sunt qui arbitrentur indulgentiarum concessiones caepisse à tempore Gregorij. m. de hoc autem nulla extat historia, etc. Sub 〈◊〉 ergo innocentij. 3. 〈◊〉, Alexandri, Alberti, & S. Thomae, de indulgentijs scribere orsi sunt. 〈◊〉. to. 4. disp. 53. sect. 1. n. 5. . Jesuit. I shall not need particularly to refel the vulgar objections against this Doctrine: which all proceed upon mistaking, and impugn what we never dreamt of. They prove that Christ only died for the world, and redeemed Mankind, and not any Saint; who doubts thereof? That we are sanctified and washed from the stain of sin by the blood of the Lamb, not of any Saint; We confess it. They bring the testimonies of S. Leo, and of S. Augustine, That the Saints received Crowns of God, gave not Crowns unto others, but only Christ; we never did nor will deny it. That only in Christ we die to sin, and are raised again soul and body unto eternal life; we never taught the contrary: for the Satisfactions of Saints have not virtue to redeem the world, nor to satisfy for the guilt of sin, nor to take men out of the power of darkness, nor to justify souls by infusion of grace, nor to purchase for men crowns of Glory, nor to raise men from life to death; but only show, they are available unto one transitory effect, which men might (were they fervent) obtain by their own industry, joined with divine grace, to wit, the Remission of temporal pain; which virtue also comes from the merits of Christ, and his most precious blood, in, and by the Satisfactions of Saints applied to work the aforesaid temporal releasement; from which temporal servitude, the children of God may through his gracious assistance by good works redeem themselves, or by Satisfactions of their fellow Citizens and Saints be redeemed: Though this temporary Redemption compared with the Redemption of Christ, deserve not that Title. ANSWER. It is an error to ascribe any effect to the operations of men, which is proper to the death of Christ: But to make Satisfaction to divine justice for any punishment of sin, eternal or temporal, is an effect proper to the death of Christ. For the holy Scripture teacheth expressly, that all spiritual, redemption is immediately wrought by the blood of Christ, Heb. 1. 3. When he had by himself, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, purged our sins, Col. 2. 15. triumphing over them in himself, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And whereas our Adversaries restrain these and the like places to the stain and eternal guilt of sin, the Apostle, Col. 2. 14. affirmeth, That Christ blotted out (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) the hand writing of decrees (contained in the law a 〈◊〉. Sup. Coloss. 2. De legc siquidem Moy si loquitur, quae lex mandatorum, decretorum, & factorum appellatur. Adam. Sasbot. ibid. Legemauten Moysi sive Decalogum, Chirographun appellavit, quod accusaret & contestaretur adversus nos. Eph. 2.15. Lex enim iudicabat nosreos, dum non praestabamus quod precipiebatur, unde etiam dicit Chirographum ipsum fuisse contrarium nobis. Hoc Chirographum delevit Christus, quia ipsius beneficio iam amplius non tenemur lege. AEstius. ibid. vult enim docere Apostolus, legem veterem per Christum abolitam esse, totamque eius obligationem cessare, introducta lege Christi. ) that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his Cross (and that by himself, Heb. 1.3. Col. 2.15.) but the temporary punishment of sin, is contained within the latitude of the Law, Levit. 26.14. Deut. 28.15, etc. Therefore Christ jesus our Saviour, immediately and by himself, and not mediately by the passions of Saints, wiped out, and removed out of the way the malediction of temporary punishment, as well as the guilt of eternal. When Daniel himself, one of the most holy Prophets, prayed for the remission of his own sins, and of the transgressions of his people, and made supplication to God for remission of temporal pains and plagues, he offereth not his own merits, or Satisfaction, but saith, Dan. 9.7. Oh Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of face. v. 9 To the Lord our God belongeth mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against thee: and v. 18. O my God, incline thine ear and hear, open thine eyes and behold our desolations, etc. for we do not present our supplications before thee for our own righteousness, but for thy great mercies. Three things are remarkable in this Scripture. First, Daniel was a sanctified person, and a Prophet, one of those which, according to our Adversary's Tenet, communicates Satisfactions to fill up the Church's Treasury. Secondly, he prayeth to God, not only for the remission of the eternal guilt of sin, but also for the pardon and release of temporary punishment. Thirdly, he presenteth not his own Satisfactions, neither yet the superabundant Passions of any other of the Patriarches or Prophets, but he resteth wholly upon the free mercy of God, and the future satisfaction of the Messiah to come. Therefore I conclude, that they which conjoin the passions of Saints with the sufferings of Christ to make condign Satisfaction for the temporary punishment of sin, are injurious to the All-sufficient Passion of Christ, and attribute that virtue to the actions of men, which is proper to the Sacrifice of the Son of God. Now if the Adversary in his answer rely upon the distinction of eternal and temporal pain, affirming that Christ alone, and by himself hath fully satisfied the justice of God for the first, but not for the latter a Greg. Val. Opusc. li. d. Satisfac. ca 3. Cogitandum est Christum non solum suam, sed etiam nostram simul satisfactionem aeterno patri acceptandam obtulisse, ut ex vi etiam satisfactionis noftrae, debitum illud, quod ad poenam quidentemporalem attinet solueretur. : he must remember, That it is not sufficient in a matter of such consequence, to affirm b Nugnus. Addit. in 3. p. Th. q. 20. ar. 3. dif. 1. Quod autem fuerit divina institutio, licet non possit, manifest probari, quia non constat ex sacris literis, neque ex concilijs, tamen loca supra adducta, precipuè Pij quinti, sufficienter illud probant. , but he must confirm, by divine Testimony, the verity of his answer. And if the former Principles and the arguments deduced from them, when they are propounded in a due form, conclude not his assertion, than his distinction is a begging of the question, and not a solution of the Objection. Lastly, if the jesuit will be so rigid, as to admit no argument on our part which may receive any colourable answer, I must require him (likewise) to confirm his own positions, at leastwise with probable reasons, and not pester his papers with Illations ridiculous to children. But among other things, I entreat him to deliver so much as one probable Argument in due form (I will not require a demonstration) proving, that the Roman Bishop, or any Prelate under him, have power over souls in Purgatory c Bzovius. Annal. Tom. 14. Anno. 1300. n. 4. Insuper publicè clamabant, quia dictorum Apostolorum (Petri & Pauli) meritis, Omnes animae in Purgatorio, non solum à poenis suissent liberatae, sed etiam aeternam quoque gloriam consecutae. : for if his Monarchy be only over the Church Militant d Onus. Eccles. ca 15. Papa non mortuorum sed viventium terrestris est Deus. Gabriel. in Can. Miss. lect. 57 Dicit Sanctus Bonaventura, si quis contendat vicarium jesu Christi, habere iudiciariam potestatem super eos qui sunt in Purgatorio, non est ei multum resistendum, dummodo hoc dictet ratio vel authoritas manifesta. Rubeo. 4 d. 19 q. 2. Indulgentiae non proficiunt nec dari possunt existentibus in Purgatorio, etc. quia existentes in Purgatorio, non sunt de foro Papae. Gerson. to. 4. ser. 2. d. Defunct. q. 9 , and the Church Militant is only upon earth, by what authoriy doth the Roman Bishop intermeddle with souls in Purgatory? Also how doth his holiness, or his Emissaries, the jesuits and Friars, know which souls are in Purgatory gatorie, and how long they continue in the same, and the time, and season, when it is expedient to apply suffrages and indulgences to them. d Viguer. instit. cap. 16. §. 6. vers. 22. Videtur dicendum quod valet ad totannos, ad quot secundum divinam ordinationem, pro peccatis preteritis, haberet sustinere in Purgatorio, si ante Indulgentiae consecutionem, in gratia decessisset. Petud. 4. d. 20. q. 4. n. 18. Negas. 〈◊〉. to. 4. disp. 50. sect. 5. n. 11. 12. Saepè conceduntur mille vel decem mille anni Indulgentiae cum tamen poenae Purgatorij ordinariè non sint tanto tempore duraturae. Est igitur communis sententia, diem vel annum in huiusmodi Indulgentijs proxime significare, durationem poenitentialis satisfactionis in hac vita exhibitae pro peccatis, per Indulgentiam autem remitti non solum satisfactionem poenitentialem, sed tantam poenam Purgatorij, quanta per poenitentiam unius diei vel anni remitteretur. 〈◊〉 4. d. 21. q. 2. ar. 1. Cordube d. Indulg. q. 11. 〈◊〉. d. Sacram. Disp. 6. q. 1. punct. 2. pa. 661. 〈◊〉. sup. Decret. dist. 1. d. poenit. in Levitico. q. 24. n. 25. 26. 27. etc. Dominicus Soto, and Thomas Zerula say, That souls continue not in Purgatory, ten or twenty years, and yet the Pope granteth Pardons for many thousands of years a Zerula. d. Indulg. l. 1. c. 21. q. 8. Octavo quaeritur quanto tempore anima potest stare in Purgatorio? Resp. breviter ex Sot. loc. cit. dist. 21. q. 2. ar. 1. col. 4. & dist. 19 q. 2. ar. 2. In fine: ubi ait animam non detineri in Purgatorio spatio viginti imo nec decem annorum. Aureol. 4. d. 20. ar. 1 . Also, by what experience or testimony do Papists understand the state of souls in Purgatory, the quality of their pain b Read before in the Margin, pag. 564. Rubeo 4. d. 19 q. 1. Aliquando pro uno denario vel obolo, quinquaginta vel centum anni de Indulgentia conceduntur. , their ingress and egress from that place of torment, or the means to apply remedy to them? Now let them answer what they please touching the difference of the years of Penance in this life, with the measure of Purgatory pains c Jac. d. Graph. Append. d. Indulg. cap. 1. n. 24. Poeva Purgatorij etsi aeterna non sit, miro tamen modo est gravis, excedit enim omnem poenam quam unusquisque unquam passus est in hac vita: unde nunquam in carne inventa est tanta poena licet mirabilia pasci sint Martyrs tormenta, etc. , or concerning any of the former assertions, and withal, let them be entreated to confirm their Tenet with any probable Argument, and we shall think they are less partial, when they admit no proof as sufficient on our part, which can be evaded by any strain of wit. THE NINTH POINT. THE OPINION OF DEPOSING KINGS, AND giving away of their Kingdoms by Papal power, whether directly or indirectly. Jesuit. THe Question proposed in the ninth place, being a Controversy between two powers, both (each in his kind) Sovereign and Supreme; both instituted and appointed of God; both necessary for the preservation of Religion, and government of the Christian world; both Sacred, Venerable, Honoured, and reverenced of me, in the inmost affections of my soul: for me to undertake the discussion thereof between them, were to put myself into imminent danger of incurring their offence, whose favour I desire and esteem above all worldly blessings. ANSWER. IN your entrance into this ninth Question, you deliver these Particulars: First, That the question is, concerning two Powers, in their several kinds supreme. Secondly, Both these Powers, (Regal, and Papal) are unfeignedly honoured by you. Thirdly, You profess your own unwillingness to discuss this question, because of offence. To the first I answer, That Papal jurisdiction is not supreme in Spirituals, by Divine institution; whereas regal is by divine, natural, and civil, in things civil and temporal. Gregory a Greg. li. 4. ep. 60. Nullus praedecessorum meorum Pontificum Romanorum universalis Episcopi nomen sibi assumpsit, quod si assump erit Typhum esse dico arrogantiae, vocabulum superbum nowm, pompaticum, perversum, stultum, temerarium, superstitiosum, prophanum, impium, sceleratum, nomen singularitatis, nomen erroris, nomen Hypocriseos, nomen vanitatis, nomen blasphemiae, eumquè qui se appellaverit, aut appellari desideraverit illo arrogantissimo vocabulo, in elatione sua Antichristum praecurrere, illiusquè quietam & gratam usurpationem, fidei universalis Ecclesiae calamitatem esse. Read also lib. 4. ep. 32.36. 37. 38. 39 & lib. 6 ep. 24.30. 37. & li. 7. ep. 3. Paul. Cararia. sum. Canon & Mor. q. 3. ar. 7. p. 2. n. 40. Ex nimia humilitate se universalem Papam negat (Gregorius.) the Great (a Roman Pope) saith as followeth: None of the Roman Bishops my predecessors assumed to himself the name of Universal Bishop: and if any man else assume the same, I say, It is a swelling of arrogancy, a proud, novel, pompous, perverse, temerarious, superstitious, profane, and impious title, A name of Singularity, a title of Error, a word of Vanity, and Blasphemy: and whosoever taketh upon him, or desireth this arrogant title, by this exalting himself, he is a forerunner of Antichrist; and if he be permitted to usurp the same, it will prove the bane of the Faith of the universal Church. Also if the Roman Monarchy were of Divine institution, how could an Ecumenical Council b Concil. Chalced. Act. 16. (one of those four which Pope Gregory himself honoured as the four Evangelists c Greg. lib. 1. ep. 24. Sicut sancta Euangelij quatuor Libros, sic quatuor 〈◊〉 suscipere, & venerari me fateor. ) appoint equal dignity, jurisdiction, and privileges to the Episcopal See of Constantinople, and to the See of Rome? Again, other Bishops in ancient time, style the Roman by the name of Brother, Colleague, fellow Priest, fellow Bishop d Concil. to. 1 Surij, pa. 601.603.604. Cyprian. ep. 67. & 72. Greg. in 〈◊〉. saepissimè. , etc. They resist him, and control his Actions e Euseb. Hist. lib. 5. cap. 23. Socrat. li. 5. ca 21. 〈◊〉. ap. Cyprian. ep. 75. Onus Ecclesiae, cap. 19 n. 3. Si Christus super alios Apostolos Petrum, & fortè eiusdem Petri successores super alios Sacerdotes praeposuerit quemadmodum proditur in Dialogo Catha Senen. Tamen hoc fecit ob Petri Praecipuam 〈◊〉 humilitatem, & charitatem, Ideo successoribus Pontificibus nisi essent eiusmodi, talen Praeeminentiam non praesumitur attribuisse, neque super eos aèdificasse suam Ecclesiam universalem, quae simpliciter pendet à Christo, qui est angularis lapis, & fundamentum ipsius Ecclesiae. . And that which is principally to be considered: It appeareth not by divine Revelation, that our Saviour, or his Apostles, granted any Monarchy to the Roman Pope, or that he is the only Successor of S. Peter, or that S. Peter's authority and privileges are devolved upon the Roman Bishops only. Yea it is not infallible, that S. Peter himself was a Monarch, Luc. 22.24. for in the whole divine History, no Monarchical actions of his are reported: He is sent upon a message by other Apostles f Gerson. d. potest. Eccles. Lect. 11. Apostoli miserunt in Samariam Petrum & johannem, tanquam subditos Ecclesiae. , Acts 8.14: he gives the right hand of fellowship to S. Paul and Barnabas, Gal. 2. 9: and many of the Fathers say, the rest of the Apostles were his Compeers g Cypr. d. unit Eccles. Hoc erant utique & caeteri Apostoli, quod fuit 〈◊〉, pari consortio praediti, & honoris & potestatis. Chrys. sup. Gal. 1. (Paulus) honore par illi erat. Hieron. epist. ad Euagrium. . Secondly, Your protestation, that you honour Papal and regal dignity, must be understood jesuitically, with mental limitation, to wit, that you hononr the Pope as an earthly God, yea so far, as that if he lead you to Hell, you are ready to follow him a Dist. 40. ca Si Papa. . But you honour Kings as the Pope's vassals b Math. Paris. Chron. in Henrico 3. pa 844. Nun Rex Anglorum noster est vassallus. , or in a subordination to the Pope, and so far only as the Pope c Aug. Trump. Sum. d. Eccles. p. 1. q. 1. ar. 1. Omnis potestas Imperatorum & Regum est subdelegata respectu potestatis Papae. Naucler. Generate. 37. Consurgit ex adverso blandiens adulatio susurrans ô quanta est sublimitas Ecclesiasticae potestatis. Nam sicut Christo collata est omnis potestas in coelo & in terra, ità Christus omnem potestatem dedit successoribus suis. Vndè nec Constantinus quicquam dedit Syluestro Papae quod non esset prius suum, sed reddidit iniuste detentum Porrò sicut non est potestas nisi à Deo, sic nee aliqua potestas Imperialis aut Regalis haberi potest, nisi à Dei Vicario, in cuius femore scriptum est, Rex Regum, Dominus Dominantium. Ipse est Monarcha supremus nedum in spiritualibus sed in temporalibus, à quo alij Reges & Principes immediatè suam accipiunt Dominationem, & solum mediate à Deo. will licence you. And if you speak plainly, and from your heart, concerning your loyalty and dutiful respect towards the King, how cometh it to pass that Roman Priests and jesuits have had their singer in every treason intended against his Majesty, yea formerly against Queen Elizabeth, and the state? and wherefore do you yourself decline the Oath of Allegiance, and persecute some of your own part, because they persuade and maintain the lawfulness of this Oath? Thirdly, If you be unwilling (for fear of afterclaps) to dispute, or deliver your judgement concerning this question, this fear of danger becometh not a Divine of resolution. And Bernard. ep. 34. S. Bernard's rule is, Melius est ut scandalum oriatur, quam ut veritas relinquatur, It is better that scandal happen, than that Verity be forsaken, which is most to be observed in matter of Faith: such as this is made by your faction, and tending (by the denying thereof) to the ruin of souls, as ye pretend. Jesuit. But seeing that those of our Society are odiously traduced, as maintainers of Doctrine extolling the Pope's authority, to the prejudice of Princes, more than any other Divines of the Roman Religion; I sincerely (in the sight of Almighty God) protest unto your Majesty, that I never knew any jesuit, who was permitted, either by word or writing, to hold any singular opinion in this point, but such as are ordinarily held by other Divines secular and religious. ANSWER. There be three opinions maintained respectively by Roman Divines, concerning the present question. 1. The first is negative, to wit, the Pope (by virtue of his office) hath not any power or authority to depose Princes, or to dispose of their crowns or lives, for any cause, crime, end, or good, whatsoever a Read the B. of Rochester, d. potest. Papae, ca 8. Qui multos citat Authores. . 2. The second is affirmative b Marta d. Iurisdict part 1. cap. 19 n. 7. 〈◊〉. d. Cath. justit. tit. 46. n. 73. 74. 75. 〈◊〉. d. Sig. Eccle. lib. 17. ca 4. Baron. Annal. to. 11. Anno 1026. n. 26. & Anno 1027. n. 51. Saunder. d. Monarch. lib. 2. ca 4. 〈◊〉. Pontif. Rom. ca 46 pa. 621. Carerius. d. Rom. Pontif. li. 2 ca 17. Paulus Cararia. Sum. Mor. & Can. q. 3. ar. 7. p. 2. n. 10. , That the Roman Pope hath a direct power to depose and unstate them: and that Romish Catholics are obliged to assist the Pope in the execution of his sentence of decrowning Princes, and translating their crowns. 3. The third is pendulous, with show of Limitation, and Mitigation, to wit, The Pope hath an indirect c Bellar. d. Pontif. li. 5. ca 1678. Gretsar. def. Bellar. d. Pontif. Driedo. d. li. Christ li. 2. ca 2. Victoria. d. potest. Eccle. q. 2. Caietan. Apol. ca 13. ad. 6. Soto. 4. dist. 25. q. 2. ar. 1. Turrecrem. sum. li. 2. cap. 113. Pighius Apol. cap. 13. Power, limited and circumscribed by many Cautions, and provisoes, in deposing Princes, etc. The first Tenet is Orthodoxal, grounded upon holy Scripture, and the Testimony of the Primitive Fathers d Policarp. ap. Euseb. Hist. lib. 4. cap. 15. Tertull. c. Scap. cap. 2. & d. Idol. cap. 15. & Apol. cap. 30. etc. Marc. lib. 1. Orig. lib. 9 Ep. ad Rom. cap. 13. Chrysost. in Ep. ad Rom. Ser. 23. Optat. Milevit. c. Parmen. lib. 3. Ambros. Apol. David. cap. 10. & 16. Aug. Ep. 166. & sup. Psal. 124. & Expos. Ep. ad Rom. Greg. Rom. lib. 3. Ep. 61. & 64. 〈◊〉. Expof Pelus. lib. 1. Ep. 48. Damian. lib. 4. ep. 9 Concil. Toletan. 4. Otho Frising. Chron. lib. 6. c. 35. Gerson. d. Potest. Eccles. Lect. 11. Occam, Aliaco, 〈◊〉. Maier. Waldensis, Doctores Parisienses. , and the consent of many famous Doctors in all Ages, whose mouths the malice and tyranny of Popes was never able to stop; but they freely and successively, to this Age, have propugned this Divine Verity. The second Opinion is falsely fathered upon Pope Zacharie the first e Carerius. d. Pot Rom. pont. li. 2. ca 3. Boskier. Legat. Apostol Con 14. pa. 35. Grtaian. Caus. 15. q. 6. cap. Arius. Zacharius' Regem Francorum non tam pro suis iniquitatibus quam pro 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 potestati erat inutilis à regno deposuit. , but indeed no elder than Pope Gregory the seventh, a Brand of Hell; and it was ripened by many of his Successors, and fomented by sundry Parasites and Assassins of Rome, and is by many Moderns defended f Marta. Simancha. Baronius. Tho. Bosius. Fanc. Bosius. Carerius. Paulus Cararia. . The third Opinion, maintained by Bellarmine, may seem (for manner of speaking) to be more moderate than the former, but in weight and consequence, it is equally false, and pernicious; for it hath the same effects, yielding Authority to Popes, to depose Princes, when the same appeareth to themselves reasonable, and for the benefit of the Roman Cause g Bellarm. ibid. cap. 6. Dummodo non obsint fini spirituali, aut non sint necessaria ad eum consequendum, si autem tale quid accidat, spiritualis potestas potest aut dobet coercere temporalem omni ratione ac via quae ad id necessaria videbitur. Idem, lib. contra Barclaium, pag. 37.40.48.49.149.177. ; it armeth subjects to Rebellion, and enemies to mischief; and it provideth, that Regal Majesty shall depend upon Papal discretion and devotion a Bellar. d. Rom. Pontif. lib. 5. ca 6. Quantum ad personas non potest Papa, ut Papa ordinariè temporales Principes deponere, etiam iusta de causa, eo modo quo deponit Episcopos, id est tanquam ordinarius judex, tamen potest mutare regna & uni auferre, atque alteri conferre tanquam summus Princeps Spiritualis, si id necessarium sit ad animarum salutem. Idem, cap. 7. Quod si Christiani olim non deposuerunt Neronem, & Dioclesianum & julianum Apostatum, ac 〈◊〉 Arianum, & similes, id fuit quie de erant vires temporales Christianis. Nam quod alioqui jure potuissent id facere patet ex Apostolo, 1. Cor. 6. . But the jesuit, our Adversary, washeth his hands (like Pilate, Matth. 27. 24.) pretending, That he and his fellows (good men) are clear from shedding Royal Blood, or treading Sceptres in the mire; he never knew any jesuit, who was permitted either by word or writing, to hold any singular Opinion in this Point. approve and receive the Oath of Allegiance, and we shall be more ready to credit Protestations, concerning their fidelity to his Royal Majesty, and the State. Jesuit. For my own particular, as I reverence the Pope as Christ his Vicar on earth, yet I do utterly disclaim from enlarging his power over the temporalties of Princes, by any singular opinions of mine, or more than definitions of Counsels, and consent of Divines, doth force me to hold. a Bellar. c. Barclaium, enumerat Synodos, Beneventanum sub Victore 3. Placentinum sub Vrbano 2. Romanum sub Paschali 2. Coloniense sub Gelasio 2. Rhemense sub Calixto 2. Lateranense sub Innocentio 3. etc. , and Popish Divines, are not far to seek, which have exalted the Pope's Temporal Sovereignty as far over Princes, as Heaven is above the Earth b Extra. d. Major. & Obed. ca unam Sanctam. . And therefore saying, That you hold no singular Opinions, more than Definitions, and consent of Divines, you leave a liberty to yourself, to close in your Opinion, with Pope Hildebrand c Greg. 7. lib. 1. Ep. 63. Ap. Baron. Annal. to. 11. anno 1074. nu. 56. Quem Dominus Iesus Christus Rex gloriae, Principem super regna mundi constituit. Idem, lib. 2. Ep. 13. Quod si verum est, qualiter gratiam Beati Petri, aut nostram Benevolentiam sperare debeas, tu ipse, si justitiam vis attendere non ignoras, videlicet, te non aliter eam habiturum, nec sine Apostolica animaduersione diu regnaturum, nisi Sceptrum Regni quod tenes, correcto errore tuo, Apostolicae, non Regiae Majestatis beneficium recognoscas. Idem, lib. 4. Ep 23. Alteri autem, qui nostrae jussioni humiliter paruerit, & Obedientiam universali Matri, sicut decet Christianum Regem exhibuerit, Conuocato Concilio omnium Clericorum & Laicorum, quos advocare poteritis, Concilium & Adjutorium in omnibus Praebete, & in Regia Dignitate per Authoritatem Beatorum Apostolorum Petri & Pauli nostra vice confirmate, omnibusque Episcopis, Abbatibus, Clericis, & Laicis, in omni regno habitantibus, ut sibi fideliter & sicut oportet Regi obediant & deserunant, ex parte Omnipotentis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. , Pope Boniface d Bonifac. Ap. Platinam, in vita eius. the eight, and with Baronius e Baron. Annal. to. 11 anno 1075. n. 2. In quos rursus audiat ipse vocem Clamantis, Surge & occide & manduca, Act. 10. Ibidem, anno 1089. n. 11. ex Iuo. part. 10. cap. 54. Non eos Homicidas arbitramur, qui adversus excommunicatos Zelo Catholicae Matris ardentes, eorum quoslibet trucidasse contigerit. , and Bosius f Bosius, d. Sig. Ecclesiae, lib. 17. cap. 4. In quo elucescit Authoritas Papae, qui potest justis de causis, vel sine culpa, ab aliis in alios jura maxima, qualia sunt imperia summa, Decreto suo transfer. Atque ita quatuor causas habemus, ex quibus Papa & Episcopi, possunt regna, illis quidem auferre, his vero adjudicare, quarum prima est in scelere aliquo admisso posito, quae multis exemplis illustrari potest. Secunda est in socordia. Duae postremae respiciunt aetatem ad regendum ineptam, & tranquilitatem communem Reipublicae Christianae. , Aluares Pelagius g Aluares, Pelag. d. Planct. Eccles. lib. 1. ar. 37. Apud illum residet Regalis sive Imperialis Dignitatis plenitudo, cui de jure competit Imperium transfer. Ibid. Vnde verè & proprie Papa Monarcha est Occidentis. Jbid Sicut 〈◊〉 fidelis dubitat quando Christus suerit Rex & Sacerdos, & Rex Coeli & Terrae, etc. Sic nullus Catholicus dubitare debet, quin summus Vicarius Generalis in Terris, pariter utramque habeat potestatem: imò non longè esset ab Haeresi, contrarium pertinaciter affirmare. , Augustinus ab Anchona h August. ab Anchona. Sum. d. Eccles. q. 1. ar. 1. Immediata potestas jurisdictionis omnium Spiritualium & Temporalium est Solum in Papa. , Panormitan i Panormitan. Cap. Sicut de jure. Idem, ca per Venerab. Ext. Qui sint filij Legitimi. 〈◊〉. Terran. lib. d. Monarchia. Et ego si exaltatus fuero omnia traham ad 〈◊〉 id. est 〈◊〉 regna & Imperia Mundi recuperabo, & Principibus auferam. Boter. Comment. lib. 13. pa. 303. Refert. Baron. Sent. d. Excom. Venetor. Duplex est B. Pater Ministerium Petri, pascere & occidere. Dixit enim ad eum Dominus, pasce Oues meas. Audivit è Coelo vocem, Occide & manduca, pascere Oues, est suscipere curam obsequentium fidelium Christianorum, mansuetudine, humilitate, ac pietate, Oues & Agnos prae se ferentium, cum vero non cum Ouibus sed refractarijs & adversantibus agendum est, jubetur Petrus eas occidere, obsistere scilicet pugnare, & expugnare, ne tales sint penitus, sed quod hujusmodi occisio, non esse debeat, nisi ex summa Charitate, quod occidit jubetur manducare. Nempè per Charitatem intra sua viscera recondere, in seipsum condere, ut simus unum & idem cum Christo, quod dicebat Apostolus, Cupio vos in visceribus Christi jesu. Sic igitur non est occisio ista crudelitas, sed Pietas, atque sinceritas, cum sic occidendo saluatur, quod verè perierat. , yea, and with the Devil himself. Jesuit. In Points where there is liberty of Opinion, I shall still incline to that part, which doth most favour the quiet, tranquillity, honour, and temporal independency of my Prince. Wherefore I humbly crave of your most gracious Majesty, to be content with this my answer, and reverend silence, springing as well from respect unto your sacred Person, and Authority, as also from vowed obedience unto the General of our Order, who hath particularly forbidden us all to treat of this odious Argument, not to give your Majesty any cause of just offence, as appeareth by what I here insert out of his own Letters. Praecipitur in virtute Sanctae Obedientiae, sub poena Excommunicationis & inhabilitatis, ad quaevis officia, suspensionis à Divinis, & aliis Praepositi Generalis arbitrio reseruatis, ne quis nostrae Societatis publicé, aut privatim, praelegendo, seu consulendo, multo etiam minus libros conscribendo, affirmare praesumat, licitum esse cuiquam personae, quocunque praetextu Tyrannidis, Reges aut Principes occidere, seu mortem eis machinari. Provinciales autem qui aliquid eorum resciverint, nec emandarint, aut non praevenerint incommoda quae ex contraria opinione sequi possunt, efficiendo ut hoc Decretum Sancte obseruetur, non modo praedictas poenas incurrere, sed etiam Officio privari voluit. Pub. Claudius Epist. Dat. 1614 1. Augusti. In virtute Obedientiae commendatur Provincialibus, ne in sua Provincia quidquam quacunque occasione aut lingua ewlgari patiantur à nostris, in quo de potestate summi Pontificis supra Reges Principesque, aut de Tyrannicidio agatur, etc. Ex Epist. P. Claudij, Dat. 1614 2. August. ANSWER. There is (touching the main) no liberty of Opinion in this case. Your Great Master must be aut Caesar, aut nullus, either all or nothing a Auentin. Annal. lib. 6. pa. 446. Romani sibi Divinum usurpant honorem, rationem Actorum reddere nolunt, nec sibi dici 〈◊〉 animo ferunt cur ita agis? Illud Satyricum inculcant, Sic volo sic jubeo sit proratione voluntas. Idem, lib. 7. Dictum Eberhardi. Flamines illi Babylomiae, soli 〈◊〉 cupiunt, far parem non possunt. . And that which you add concerning the General of your Order, is a mere Illusion: For may not, yea, must not, the General of your Order, if the Lord Pope require it, untie this fast knot of jesuitical fidelity, to the temporal state a Abbas. Vsperg. Chronic. Anno Dom. 1171. Et ut creditur, de Authoritate Alexandri Papae, spretis iuramentis, coeperunt rebellare. ? and what safety can Princes enjoy, by relying upon those servants which stand Sentinel at an hour's warning, to follow their greater Master? And what if the next month after, the General of your Order will send to you and your fellows, the like Mandatorie Letters to the contrary? To say the truth, your answer hath made the whole matter more suspicious. For what need you and your brood be thus kerbed by a voluntatrie and provisional Mandate, touching Recicide, unless you were otherwise proni ad rem, bend to mischief: Et luxato hoc freno, and this Paper bridle being, broken to broach and inculcate it? If this your Master's hand shall cast Cross in stead of Pile, what shall we expect from such Gamesters, Quibus ludus sunt capita & diademata Regum? Jesuit. This only I hope I may with your Majesty's good liking affirm, That our Catholic Doctrine in this Point, is nothing so prejudicial to Princes, as are the Opinions of most Caluinists and Lutherans, expressed in their Writings, whereof we have in this age but over-evident and lamentable examples, to the world, and your Majesty not unknown. And had the Authors of the Gunpowder Treason, (which from my soul I abhor) kept themselves within the bounds of Catholic Doctrine, they had never undergone that most odious and abominable enterprise. ANSWER. By a draught of Sea water one may judge of the brackishness of the whole. His gracious Majesty hath tasted already of some fruits of Popish loyalty; and the Gunpowder Treason, animalised by jesuits, but now disavowed (for it succeeded not) is a Watchword for prudent men not to confide in them, whom the leaven of Superstition hath soured. But is the wit of a jesuit grown so barren? Have you no other evasion but by recrimination, and that impertinent? For as concerning your Flim-flam of Caluinists and Lutherans: I answer, His Majesty, and the State of England hath felt no such disturbance, but have observed by long experience, that it cannot enter into any true Protestants heart, upon any occasion whatsoever, to lift up their heads against the Lords Anointed; and if any unsound or equivocal member appear among them, divers from the true body, let them receive censure according to their demerits. Jesuit. As for the other Question which your Majesty proposeth particularly to myself, viz. What I think Subjects ought to do, in the case of Papal deposition of their Prince? I can give no better Council unto others than what I am resolved to take myself. First, to pray for peace and tranquillity, and true concord between both parties. Secondly, to exhort all, to do all other good offices tending thereunto, and rather to suffer with patience, than any way concur to the prejudice of the Prince, or disturbance of the Commonwealth. Thirdly, I do protest before Almighty God, that I would rather offer myself to die than any way to be accessary to your Majesty's death. All which things (most sincerely uttered by me) I humbly beg your Majesty would vouchsafe to receive, as issuing from the conceits and hearts of all my Profession, whose institutes, particularly commandeth respect and obedience to all in authority, as in the beginning of this Discourse I made plain unto your Majesty, unto whom, we especially who are your born subjects * To us particularly our General in a Letter 〈◊〉 thus, Prae omnibus 〈◊〉 sibi habeant ut rebus politicis & à nostra professione alienis (alioqui licitis) ne se immisceant. Nam ab 〈◊〉 quae Principem offendere possunt vel Reipublicae statum perturbare certum est non modo ipsis abstinendum sed ubi commode possunt & etiam alij id praestant curandum. Ita Claudius Aquaviua in literis datis 9 jan. 1607. do bear so unfeigned affection, that we should think ourselves happy, if your Majesty would vouchsafe but to make trial thereof; not doubting but your Excellent judgement would soon discover us, to be not only as loyal as any other of your Subjects, but more willing to employ our wits, pens, and labours, even with hazard of our lives, in performing your Majesty's Commandments, than many who enjoying the favour of the time, make fair shows of their own affections and fidelity, and uncharitably traduce us as capital enemies to your Maiestes' Person, State, and Dignity. ANSWER. It is needless to make many words, for if your heart and pen accord, testify the same by taking the Oath of Allegiance, and by renouncing the pestilent opinion of Equivocation. therwise your Insinuations and Blandishments, are but Masks and Tectures of latent perfidiousness: and they which are acquainted with Romish guile, must still suspect that you play the Fox. Astutam vapido gestans sub pectore vulpem, o'er aliud retinens, aliud sub pectore Condens. Now concerning this precedent passage, let it be observed, how the jesuit hath not answered, but declined his Majesty's Question. And we must hold him to stand mute, as one not daring to put himself to his Country, lest he be found guilty. For the question is, What ought the subject to do, in case a Pope depose the King? The jesuits answer is, I pray for peace, I exhort others, I would rather die, etc. Handsome compliments, but no security. If his Holiness send another wind, you which have vowed strict obedience to the Pope, must turn your sails, your Votes and Prayers must bond another way, you must exhort others to execute the Pope's pleasure, and if they and you perish in the Pope's quarrel, you die Martyrs, and go to heaven in a string. The JESVITS Conclusion. Having performed your Majesty's will and pleasure, in seeking to give satisfaction about the Nine principal points that withhold your Royal assent from joining unto the Roman Church; my poor endeavours prostrate at your Majesty's feet to receive their doom, humbly beseech this favour, That your charity, and desire of the unity of the Church, may join together with your excellent Wisdom and Learning, to pronounce the sentence. Although I be confident, that examining Religion by the mere rigour of only Scripture, the Catholic Doctrines would get the victory, more clear and express Testimonies standing on our side, than any that Protestants can bring for themselves, as by the former Discourse may appear; although also I be much more confident in the Tradition & perfect practice of the Church, interpreting Scripture, which by so full consent delivers the Roman Doctrines, that partiality itself, duly pondering, can hardly in heart, and inwardly judge against them: yet my chiefest hope is, in those charitable thoughts and desires of Peace and Unity in the whole Christian world, which the holy Ghost hath inspired into your Religious breast. ANSWER. You deceive yourself, touching his Majesty: for not only these Nine points, but many other, detain his royal assent from joining with the Roman Faith. Secondly, Your ostentation of proving these Articles, by the mere rigout of sole Scripture, is, Vanitas Vanitatum, A vanity beyond vanity: for the learned of your own part acknowledge, that many of your Romish Articles, are neither expressly nor inuoluedly contained in holy Scripture a Bannes. in 22. q. 1. ar. 10. p. 169. Non omnia quae ad Catholicam fidem pertinent in libris Canonicis continentur neque aperte neque obscurè. Ibid. pa. 170. Orationes esse ad Sanctos faciendas, venerandas esse eorum Imagines, memoriasque eorundem in Ecclesia celebrandas solenniter, Sacramenta Ordinis & Confirmationis non esse iteranda, neque etiam in press & involute sacrae literae docent. Canus. loc. li 3. ca 3. fundam. 3. Sanctorum Martyrum auxilium precibus implorandum, eorumque memorias celebrandas, imagines venerandus esse, In sacrificio Eucharistiae simul cum corpore sanguinem sacerdotibus esse conficiendum & sumendum: Sacramenta confirmationis & ordinis non iteranda, Sacrae literae nusquam forte tradiderunt. . Neither again can your Faith subsist, if it be tried by Genuine and Orthodoxal Tradition b Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 2. Euenit itaque, neque Scripturisiam, neque traditioni consentire eos. : for yourself in this Treatise, wherein you perform as much in substance as your cause will bear, have made no demonstration of any one Article, by the Testimony of perpetual Tradition: and it seemeth to me, that you are conscious hereof, because in your Conclusion you fall upon a new Disputation, and seek to infer a necessity of reducing all Controversies, to the mere and absolute determination of the Roman Church and Pope, who will not fail to be fast friends to themselves c Lancellet. Conrade. Temp. om. judic. lib. 2. cap. 1. d. Pontif. §. 3. n. 5. Sacrosancta Rom. Ecclesia fas de omnibus habet iudicandi, neque cuiquam licet, de 〈◊〉 iudicare iudicio. Cap. Cuncta per mundum. & ca fi. 9 q. 3. cum fini. . Jesuit. For suppose, that praeconceit (instilled into tender minds) against them, think, comparing Catholics with Protestants, that Scriptures stand equally on both sides, (yea sifting the matter by Scripture only that Protestants may seem to have the upper hand) yet Charity will move this Question, Whether the Testimonies and Arguments they bring from Scripture, are so undeniably clear, and so avoidable strong, that no answer or evasion may be found, but the Roman Church must be refused, notwithstanding so much discord and dissension, so much inconstancy and incertainetie about Religion, which (as reason proveth) must, and (as experience showeth) doth, thereupon ensue. ANSWER. First, Protestants do not only bring Arguments and Testimonies of Scripture against the Roman faith, but also the testimony of Antiquity, and all other grounds of verity. Secondly, their arguments from Scripture, are such as cannot be avoided, but only by Sophistry; a Ireneus. li. 3. ca 2. More serpentum lubrici undique, etc. and in this manner, the very arguments of Christ for the resurrection, Matth. 22. 32. and the testimonies which Counsels and Fathers use 〈◊〉 Arrians, Pelagians, and sundry other Heretics, may receive appearing and seeming solutions. Thirdly, if the Scripture itself, and the doctrine of the Primitive Church, with other grounds of learning, cannot (as our Adversary objecteth) de facto, or presupposing the malice of some persons, 〈◊〉 all discord, and inconstancy of Religion; much less can the determination of the Roman Church effect this. For if men will not regard Moses, and the Prophets, etc. If an Angel come from heaven, or if one rise from the dead, they may still cavil and refuse to believe. But for the external repressing of petulant Spirits, a free and lawful Council b Gerson. tom. 1. potest. Eccles. Leet. 11. Cum summus pontifex sit peccabilis, & possit potestatem in destructionem convertere: similiter Sacrum Collegium quod eidatum est & 〈◊〉, non est in gratia confirmatum: superest ut aliqua sitrelicta nobis inobliquabilis & indeviabilis regula à Christo, secundum quam possit abusus huiusmodi, reprimi, dirigi, ac moderari. Haecautem regula, vel est Ecclesia, vel Concilium generale. Idem. d. Exam. Doctr. Consid. 1. Finalis judex doctrinarum fidem tangentium est generale Concilium. were to be desired, and a disposition of heart in Christian Princes, and in other worthy members of the Church, to submit themselves to a Trial by the holy Scripture, and the doctrine of the Primitive Church, and upon the same to conclude a common Peace in Christianity, and to repress by Discipline, and Authority, factious and turbulent Incendiaries, either of the Romish or Protestant part. Jesuit. For if you cast away the Roman Church and her authority, no Church is left in the World that can with reason, or dares for shame, challenge to be infallible in her definitions: and if such a Church be wanting, What means is left, either to keep the learned certainly in peace, or to give unto the ignorant assurance, what is the Doctrine of salvation the Apostles first preached? ANSWER. You do well to name Daring and 〈◊〉: for if the Papal faction had not passed all shame, they had not to their usurpations of jurisdiction, added the forgery and vaunt of absolute intallibilitie; a privilege, which (I make no doubt) no Pope (without or with his Papal Counsels) ever in his inward conscience thought himself to have. But as for Ecclesiastic decisions and determinations, we say, that although the absolute authority of the Roman Church be refused, and although no other Church in the world can truly challenge absolute infallibility of judgement, but conditional only, or restrictive, so far as it propoundeth and confirmeth doctrine out of the Sacred Scriptures; yet the learned may be preserved in peace, and the ignorant in assurance of verity. First, The Holy Ghost hath already determined all questions of faith (necessary for the Church to understand) by his own immediate decisive voice, delivered in Sacred Scripture, expressly or derivatively a 〈◊〉. li. d. Exam. doctr. p. 2. Consid. 1. Attendendum est in examinatione doctrinarum primò & principaliter, si doctrina sit conformis Sacrae Scripturae, tam in se quam in modi traditione. Declaratur ex authoritate B. Dyonisijs, dicentis, nihil audendum dicere de Divinis, nisi quae nobis à sacra Scriptura tradita sunt. Cuiusratio est, quoniam Scriptura nobistradita est, tanquam regula sufficiens & infallibilis, pro regimine totius Ecclesiastici corporis, & membrorum usque in finem seculi. Est igitur talis ars, talis regula, vel exemplar, cui se non conformans alia doctrina, vel abijcienda est ut haeretica, aut suspecta, aut impertinens ad religionem est 〈◊〉. . Secondly, if any other question arise touching History, matter of Fact, natural or moral Verity, Ceremonies, and external Policy, etc. the same may be sufficiently decided by Christian prudence working upon the principles of Reason, humane History, rules of Art, and by the examples of former times, and principally by the general rules of holy Scripture: and many questions are raised by the curiosity and subtlety of men, wherein if the Church be ignorant b Chrys. in Mat. Hom. 7. Prestat proba ignoratione detineri, quam falsa opinion 〈◊〉. Aug. in 6. Psalm. Nos quod nescire nos Dominus voluit, libentèr nesciamus. Tertul. d. Anima. ca t. Quis revelabit, quod Deus texit? unde sciscitandum est? Vnde & ignorare tutissimum est. 〈◊〉 per Deum ignorare quia non revetaverit, quam per hominem feire, quia iple presumpserit. Aug. d. ver. Ap. ser. 7. Mehor est fidelis fidelisignorantia, quam temeraria Scientia. Idem. d. Genes. ad lit. li. 8. ca 5. Melius est dubitare de occultis quam litigare de incertis. Idem. Enchir. ca 59 Cum ista queruntur & ea sicut potest quisque 〈◊〉, non inutihter exercentur ingenia, si adhibeatur disoeptatio moderata, & absit error opinantium se scire quod nesciunt. Quid enim opus est, ut haec atque alia 〈◊〉, affirmentur vel negentur, vel definiantur cum disermine, quando sine crimine nesciantur. , and unresolued, there ensueth no prejudice in respect of faith. Thirdly, if contentious persons lust to continue such, the determination of the Roman Church, or Council, cannot quell or stifle contention, but only as an humane judge, and by the same authority with other Churches. It is also remarkable, that the definitions of the Roman Church itself, are uncertain, ambiguous, mutable, and such, as Defacto, leave matter of strife among those persons which submit themselves to the resolution thereof. The Dominicans and jesuits contend eagerly at this day, concerning the sense and Exposition of the Trent Council a Concil. Trid. Sess. 6. ca 6. Neque homo ille nihil omnino agit, inspirationem illam recipiens quippe qui illam abijcere potest. Ib. Can. 4. Nec posse dissentire si velit. Aluares. d. Auxil. li. 3. disp. 18. Suares. Opuse. 〈◊〉. Auxil. li. 3. ca 9 , in the question of Grace and freewill. Suares and Vasques, two prime jesuits, are divided about the sense of that Council, in the matter of Merit and Satisfaction b Trid. Council. ca 8. Omnis gloriatio nostra in Christo est, in quo vivimus, in quo maeremur, in quo satisfactionis, etc. Suares. d. great. part. 3. li. 12. ca 19 In quo modernus quidam gravis. Vasq. 1.2. Disp. 204. n. 68 Quod aiunt Trid. Concilium, etc. non possum satis mirari viros doctos ex hoctestimonio, etc. : the like differences are found among many modern Schoolmen, touching the manner of worshipping Images, and concerning the presence of Christ's Body in the Eucharist, whether the same be there by adduction or production, wherein Bellarmine holdeth the first, and Suares the latter opinion. And if our Adversary elevate these dissensions, pretending them to be small; surely they are as weighty as the differences amongst Protestants. And lastly, whatsoever Romists pretend to the contrary, the transcendent Authority of Popes, is no sufficient or Sovereign means to preserve unity, either of faith or charity in the Christian world: for when the Papacy was most predominant, the Christian world was distracted with contentions about Religion; to wit, between the Romans, Grecians, and other Churches; and it was embroiled with bloody wars between Popes and other Princes and Emperors c Otho Frising. Chron. li. 6. ca 36. Quamta mala, quot bella, bellorumoque discrimina, inde secuta sunt, quoties misera Roma obsessa, capta, vastata, etc. Denique tot mala, tot Schysmata, tot tam animorum quam corporum pericula, huius tempestatis turbo involuit, ut solus ex persecutionis immanitate ac temporis diuturnitate ad humanae miseriae infoelicitatem, sufficeret comprobandum unde à quodam Ecclesiastico Scriptore, densissimis AEgipti tenebris comparatur. Ibid. ca 33. Quos dum Leo papa, cum militia ad urbem rediens Ecclesiae & imperij finibus coercere vult commissio praelio caesis multis fugere Beneuentum compellitur. Tanta verò strages utrorumque ibi facta fuit, quod a ceruus ex ossibus mortuorum compactus, hactenus ab Indigenis illic monstratur. Auentin. Annal. li. 6. pa. 480. Per triginta tres annos à Gregorio & urbano continenter sanguine ovium belligeratum est. Ibid. li. 7. pa. 547. Confunditur omne ius, & leges pereunt. Non fides in hominibus, non pax, non humanitas, non pudor, non veritas, atque ita neque securitas, neque regimen, nequerequys a malis ulla est. Omnis terra tumultuatur, fremunt undique bella, omnes gentes in armis sunt, & se invicem oppugnant Civitates finitimae inter se praeliantur, evertuntur Regna Civitates funditus intereunt ferro atque igne. Lambert. 〈◊〉. Hist. Germanorum Anno. 1064. Parmensis Episcopus armata multitudine non modica Luccensem Episcopum, sede Apostolica per vim deturbare aggressus est, è contra fautoribus illius ad arma impigrè 〈◊〉, congressio facta est, multique hinc & inde vulneribus acceptis corruerunt, sic deprauta Ecclesiastici Rigoris censura, homines non ut quondam ut praeossent Ecclesiae Dei injecta manu trahebantur; sed ne non praeessent armata manu praeliabantur, fundebantque mutuò sanguinem, non pro ovibus Christi, sed ne non dominarentur ovibus Christi. Tho. Walsing. Hist. Anglor. in Henric. 4. pa. 420. Ducenta millia occisa in bellis quae paparum schysma secuta, etc. , and the Roman See itself was rant into Factions, by occasion of Antipopes. Neither was the transcendent authority of the Roman Church any effectual means to promote common unity, but the Ambition and Oppression thereof, was a perpetual Seminary, and incentive of mischief and discord: therefore the means for his most excellent Majesty to cause unity in the Christian world, is not the advancing of Papal Supremacy, which is a firebrand of contention; but the maintaining of the Supreme authority of the Scripture, and the procuring (if it might be) of a free and lawful Council, wherein the word of Christ may have Pre-eminence, and wherein the Pope may be a Subject, as well as other Pastors. Jesuit. A Church fallible in her teaching, is by the learned to be trusted no further than they do see her Doctrine consonant unto Scripture, and so they may neglect her judgement, when they seem to have evidences of Scripture against her; and if this liberty of Contradiction be granted, What hope of unity remains, when a private man may wrangle eternally with the whole Church, and never be convinced apparently of teaching against the Scriptures, whereof we have too many examples. ANSWER. A Church fallible in judgement, is to be trusted, when it confirmeth her doctrine by the word of God, which is an infallible witness. And although a Church be subject to possibility of Error, and although the doctrine thereof wanting Divine proof, is not to be received of the learned as matter of Faith a Cyril. Chat. 4. d. Spir. Sanct. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. N mihi quidem ea tibi proferenti simpliciter fidem adhibeas nisi de Divinis Scripturis eorum quae dicam demonstrationem accipias. Nam fidei nostrae salus & conseruatio, non orationis facundia nititur, sed Scripturarum divinarum comprobatione. Aug. c. Don. li. 7. c. 48. Quia nullam rationem vel authoritatem Scripturarum attulit, diu nos tenere non debet. , yet no liberty of contesting the lawful authority of the same when it (confirmeth her sayings by God's word) is hereby permitted to contentious Spirits: and it is more probable, That Pastors of the Church, assembled in God's fear and not factiously for their own ends, shall judge aright, than Popes, which refer all things to their own worldly ends. Also it is one thing to contradict a Church, defining and speaking of itself, and another, when it delivereth the doctrine of Christ. Now whensoever the preaching of the Church is according to the rule of holy Scripture, the voice thereof is the voice of Christ, and all people, learned and unlearned, are bound to hear and obey the same. Jesuit. If wetake out of the world a Church infallible, whence shall ignorant men learn which is the Doctrine of salvation the Apostles delivered? It is as evident as the Sun shining at noon day, and the evidence of the thing hath forced some Protestants to acknowledge, That the Controversies Field of the Church, in the Preface. of Religion in our time, are grown in number so many, and in nature so intricate, that few have time and leisure, fewer strength of understanding to examine them: so that nothing remains for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence, but diligently to search out, which amongst all the societies of men in the world, is the Church of the living God, the Pillar and ground of Truth, that so they may embrace her Communion, follow her Directions, rest in her judgement. ANSWER. If the rule be infallible, and the Preaching of Pastors according to that rule; ignorant persons, by the assistance of Grace, may learn the doctrine of salvation from their teaching, without the least thought or reference more to the Roman Church, than to any other Church: for although Saint Augustine and Saint Cyprian were subject to error, yet the unlearned people of Hippo and Carthage received right Faith by their Ministry, with assurance, that the same descended from the Apostles. And it is as evident as the Sun shining, that the Word of Christ is the sole authentical ground of Faith a Gerson. part. 1. d. potest. Eccles. Consid. 13. Considerari debet Ecclesia prout instituta est à Christo, supra 〈◊〉 Petram fidei ad finem supernaturalem, secundum legem Euangelicam & Sacrae Scripturae divinitus revelatae, secundum quam regulati debet iudicium de fide, & motibus subditorum, quoniam rectum index est sui & obliqui. Idem. d. Exam. Doctr. part. 1. Consid. 2. Determinatio solius Papae in hijs quae sunt fidei non obligat praecise ut 〈◊〉 ad credendum. Idem. d. pot. Eccles. Lect 11. Cum summus Pontifex sit peccabilis, etc. Similiter Sacrum Concilium quod ei datum est & coasistit, non est in gratia confirmatum, etc. , and the only infallible rule to decide Controversies; and the Pastors of other Churches, if they use the means, and have sufficient knowledge, and the assistance of ordinary Grace, may be as infallible in their Doctrine as Roman Prelates. And although unlearned people depend upon their Pastors like sick men upon their Physicians, yet where they enjoy the free use of the holy Scripture, as in ancient times all people did: and if they be careful of their own salvation, and desire to know the truth, God blesseth his own ordinance, and ordinarily assisteth them by his grace, in such sort, as that they shall not be seduced to damnation. Math. 24.24. And if they be distracted in smaller points by the dissensions of Teachers, their Error in this case is excusable a Binnes. 22. q. 1. ar. 10. pa. 135. Quod si inter eos sit dissensio simplices fideles excusabuntur iuxta communes regulas sequendo sententiam cuiuslibet partis: non tamen inde sequitur, quod vel fides deficiat nam aliqui eorum veram fidem tenebunt. . But howsoever, the Roman Church can be no greater stay to them than other Churches, but only by leading them to a blind obedience b Cusan. Exercit. li. 6. Obedientia irrationalis, est consummata obedientia & perfectissima, scilicet quando obeditur sine inquisitione rationis, sicut iumentum obedit Domino suo. , like as Pagans are led in another kind. Dr. Fields testimony concerning the necessity of learning, which is the true Church, the ground and Pillar of Truth, etc. serveth not to prove, That the definition of any modern Church is absolutely and universally the rule of Faith, and supreme judge of all Controversies, or free from all Error: for this learned Divine speaketh of the Catholic Church in general, as it contains the holy Apostles, and those which succeeded them in all ages, in the teaching of the doctrine which they delivered to the world. And concerning the present Church, he ascribeth no more unto it, but to be a manuduction and guider to saving verity, confirmed and grounded upon the holy Scripture: neither maketh he the authority and definition thereof absolute, but dependant upon the word of God. Jesuit. If there be no Church besides the Roman in the world, that can with any colour pretend infallibility of judgement; If the most part of men cannot by their examining of Controversy be resolved in faith, and therefore must perish eternally except they find a Church that is an infallible Mistress of truth, in whose judgement they may securely rest; certainly those that have bowels of charity, will accept of any probable answer unto Protestants Objections and accusations, rather than discredit the authority of so necessary a Church, which being discredited, no Church remains in the world of credit sufficient to sustain the weight of Christian, that is infallible belief. ANSWER. Unlearned people must rely upon the Ministry of some modern Church, not as a ground and rule of their faith, but as an helper of their faith: and although the Ministry of the Church, whereupon they depend, is not absolutely infallible, or free from Error, yet their salvation is not by this means impeached, neither do they perish eternally. For it is not necessary, That a Church subject to error (as Hippo, Carthage, Lions, etc. in the days of S. Augustine, S. Cyprian, S. Ireneus) shall at all times actually err, or grievously err at any time: and when it delivereth the doctrine of holy Scripture, it is herein free from error; and Christian people, by comparing the doctrine thereof with the Scripture a Chrys. Praefat. in Epist. ad Rom. & vos si lectioni cum omni alacritate volueritis attendere, nullo alio praeterea opus habebitis. Verusenim est sermo Christi cum dicit querite & invenietis, pulsate & aperictur vobis. : may certainly know that it erreth not, Act. 17. 11. And touching the Roman Church, Upon what grounds are Christian people able to know by assurance of faith, That the doctrine thereof is more infallible than the doctrine of other Churches? But if Rome is Babylon, described Revelat. ca 14. 8. & 17, 5. & 18. 2. as weighty motives induce some men to think b Orat. P. Corbarij. apud Auentin. Annal. li. 7. pa. 616. Sicuti pastor est personatus, ita mysticus est Antichristus: canis pellicula tectus, in gregem Christi lupina rabie grassatur. Vendit scelera, in feros, superos, beneficia caelestia cauponatur, etc. Monstrum biceps, mundanus & spiritualis esse contendit. ) than it is most safe for people to renounce the Communion of this Church, as it now believeth, and to live in the fellowship of that Church which groundeth her faith on holy Scripture, and not upon the traditions of men c Gerson. d sig. Ruinae. Eccl. signo. 8. Fabulae & non sanae doctrinae sunt, etc. Quae non in Revelatione Spiritus Sancti, sed secundum traditionem hominum consistant. , Apoc. 18.4. Jesuit. What amiserie will it be if it fall out (as it is most likely it will fall out) That at the day of judgement the most part of English Protestants be found to have believed points of Doctrine necessary to salvation, not out of their own certain skill in Scripture, as they should by the principles of their Religion, but upon the credit of the Church that teachech them, which doth acknowledge herself to be no sufficient stay of assured belief: for without question, men cannot be saved who although they believed the truth, yet believed it upon a deceivable ground, and consequently by humane and fallible persuasion, and not (as need is) by a divine most certain belief growded upon aninfallible foundation, which cannot be had without an infallible Church. ANSWER. What a misery will it be, if it fall out (as it is certain it will) That at the day of judgement, the greatest part of English Romists be found, to have renounced the express and manifest word of Christ, and the sincere faith of the Primitive Church, and in stead thereof, to have embraced lying vanities, and the deceivable Traditions a Cypr. Ep. 74. Quae ista obstinatio quaeve praesumptio humanam Traditionem divinae dispositioni anteponere. of the man of fin, the son of perdition, who exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, 2. Thes. 2, 3, 4. For out of all doubt, men cannot be saved which have forsaken the fountain of living Waters, and hewed them out Cisterns, even broken Cisterns that can hold no Waters, jer. 2. 13. And if any man worship the beast, and his Image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, etc. and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, Apoc. 14. 9, 10. And on the contrary, they which hear the voice of Christ speaking by the holy Scriptures b Chrys. Sup. Gen. Hom. 5. Divinae Scripturae testimonia sequamur, neque feramus eos qui temere quiduis blatcrant. Ibid. Nos quibus donatum est, solis justi tiae radiis illustrari, divinarum Scripturarum doctrinis auscultemus, & hunc canonem sequentes, salubres doctrinas in mentis nostrae promptuaria reponamus. , and build their faith upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, jesus Christ himself being the head corner stone, Eph. 2. 20. joh. 10. 27: all they which keep the commuandements of God, and the faith of jesus, Apoc. 14. 12. refusing to worship Angels, Col. 2. 18. or dead Images, 1. joh. 5. 20; which call upon God in the name of jesus only; which receive the holy Eucharist in both kinds, according to our Saviour's Precept, and the constant practice of the Primitive Church; which believe free remission of sins, and justification by a lively faith, for the sole merits of Christ; which honour the King as God's Supreme Vicegerent, which praise God with understanding, and invocate the blessed Trinity in a known Language, and maintain obedience to all Moral and evangelical Commandments, and submit their private judgement to the authority of the Apostolic and Catholic Church. All these, I say, build their souls upon the Rock, and not upon the sands; the gates of hell cannot prevail against them, and maugre all the limbs of Antichrist, they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of their Saviour's hand. Jesuit. How dreadful then must the danger be of living out of the lap of the Roman Church, that is, of a Church of infallible authority. This Church having a most glorious succession of Bishops from the Apostles, deserves above all other, the protection of your Majesty, (that by a long line of religious Catholic Ancestors, succeeding in the right of two Illustrious Kingdoms) and being so beneficial unto mankind, and so efficatious to maintain unity, cannot give over hope of your favour, whom singular preservation in the womb of your glorious Mother, against the barbarous attempts of Heretical division, that would have brought you to an immature end, shows to be, by God's infinite wisdom preordained, for some singular good of mankind, specially by your means, to quench wars and dissensions, and to bestow the blessings of Peace and union on this Land. Your title to the Crown of England, springs from the peaceful conjunction of the two renowned Roses, which before were mortal enemies, and fought so many cruel fields, that if we consider the great effusion of blood wherein each of them were bathed, we shall hardly discern the one from the other by the diversity of colour. Your Majesty's person is the root of a more happy Union of two most glorious Kingdoms, by your Sacred Person combined in assured Peace, which in the Histories of former times, are by no other marks more famously known, than by their mutual wars. Nothing remains to be added for the full consummation of this Land's happiness, and your Majesty's immortal glory, but the quenching of discord about Religion, by bringing them back again to the Root and Matrice of the Catholic Church, to the principal See, from which Sacerdocall and Sacred Unity springs, whereby Cyril. lib. Ep. 45. your Majesty shall extend the blessings of Peace from this Island, to the rest of Europe, from the body unto the soul, and Crown your temporal Peace and felicity, with eternal. For both which, not only I, but all of my Profession, yea all Catholics, will offer unto Almighty God our daily Prayers. ANSWER. Sir Declamator, you usurp Radamanthus his office over his head, and being a delinquent, make yourself a judge. We understand your uttermost strength, in propugning the absolute Soveraignitie of the Roman Church. The essence of your Creed, in this and other points, consisteth in supposal and conceit. For ourselves, we are assured, by that which cannot deceive us (The undoubted Word of the eternal God) that our Faith and Religion is according to Verity; and we shall be judged at the latter Day, not by the conceit of our Enemies, but by the Word and Gospel of Christ, Rom. 2. 16. Now the lap of your Roman Church, since the days of Hildebrand and his faction, is enlarged to a vast size a 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. d. Gestis Concil. Basil. lib. 1. Nec considerant miseri, quia quae praedicant tantopere verba, aut ipsorum summorum Pontificum sunt, suas fimbrias extendentium, aut illorum qui eis adulantur. , and we are departed from the filthiness, which is the skirts of that lap, but not from any branch of the Catholic Faith. Disprooue us if you be able, by Divine authority, and then make ostentation at your pleasure. But in the mean time, judge charitably of us, who are more ready to entertain Truth, than you to persuade us. As for glorious fuccession, about which your triumph, if you want the life and soul thereof, to wit, Apostolical Doctrine: and if (according to the relation of your bosom friends) the same, in the very external face thereof, hath been miserably blasted a Platina. in sylvest 2. Gilbertus ambitione Diabolica dominandi cupiditate impulsus largitione, etc. Idem. in sylvest 3. Eo tum Pontificatus devenerat, ut qui plus largitione & ambitione valeret, is tantummodo dignitatis gradum bonis oppressis & reiectis obtineret, quem morem utinam aliquando non retinuissent nostra tempora. Idem. in Benedict. 4. Peperit nobis tanta licentia peccandi nullo Principe flagitia hominum tum coercente haec monstra, haec portenta, à quibus ambitione & largitione sanctissima Petri sedes occupata est, potius quam posessa. Sabellic. AEnead. 9 lib. 2. Mos inoleverat Apostolicae sedis, per vim & Dolum occupand. etc. Boter. Comment. lib. 12. pa. 407. julius' 2. cum pecunia & largitionibus pontificatum adeptus esset, apud familiares iactare, hunc apicem, pluris aestimandum, qnam quae vendi aut emi à curiosis consuevisset. Math. Paris. Chron. in Henr. 3. pa. 702. Cum Papa qui forma & exemplum totius tenetur esse Religionis, usurarius sit manifestus, foams Symoniae, pecuniae sititor acraptor, ipsiusque curia forum institorum, imò potius meretricale prostibulum. , pardon us, if we make not our final and absolute dependence upon it. And to proceed to the last part of your Declamation, wherein you solicit his Majesty to advance your Superstition, putting him in remembrance of his preservation in his Mother's womb, and of the uniting of the two renowned Roses: You must understand, that his Majesty's royal Person was preserved in his Mother's womb (and at the Powder Treason) by the God of Truth, and he flourisheth as a Cedar of Libanus, with all honour, happiness, and safety, and with enjoying the unfeigned love of all his Loyal Subjects, by the Faith, Profession, and Protection of that Verity, which is taught of God, and which will make him blessed at his latter end. But if he should (which is impossible) be persuaded to give ear to such Betuefeus, as many of your Crew are, the White Rose you speak of, by your malice, might again turn Red: for wheresoever the soles of your feet take fast footing, your manner is to die all things in blood, either by Civil War, or by Fire and Faggot. But I wonder upon what surmise Romists can build their vain hope, of surprising his Majesty by plausible Blandishments and Insinuations b Russin. Hist. Eccles. lib. 1. cap. 11. 〈◊〉 Dolis apud ignorantes iocus est, scientibus vero dolum intendere, non aliud est quam risum movere. . These Enchantments are fit for lapsing Ladies, and other mutable Chameleons. But our Lord the King c Cyprian. d. Discipline. Flos ille Ecclesiastici germinis, decus atque ornamentum gratiae spiritualis, Illustrior portio Dominicigregis. , is as an Angel of God, discerning Good and Evil. The Adversary himself hath felt the force of the Wisdom of this Solomon, and one may sooner with a twined thread pluck up a tall Cedar by the root, or with a Fisher's line, hale the greatest rock from the bottom of the Sea, than transplant this great and religious Constantine a Cyprian. Ep. 52. Graves viros & semel super Petram solida stabilitate fundatos non dico aura levi sed nec vento aut turbine commoveri. Idem. d. unit. Eccles. Triticum non rapit ventus nec arborem solida radice fundatam procella subvertit. Inanes paleae tempestate iactantur, invalidae arbores turbinis incursione evertuntur. , out of the Paradise b Ireneus lib. 5. cap. 20. Ab omni ligno Paradisi escas manducabis ait spiritus Dei, id est, ab omni Scriptura Dominica manducate. of Sacred Scripture, into the dark Thicket of humane Traditions c Cyprian. Ep. 40. Qui mandatum Dei reijciunt & Traditionem suam statuere conantur fortiter à vobis & firmiter respuantur. Idem. Serm. d. lapsis, Nec Ecclesiae iungitur qui ab Euangelio seperatur. , and night-sprung weeds. Nec dicere aliquid, nec facere contra Christum potest, cuius & spes, & fides, & virtus, & gloria omnis, in Christo est (Cyprian. lib. d. Lapsis) It is impossible, that (our most gracious King) should speak, or do any thing for Antichrist, against Christ, whose Hope, and Virtue, and Honour, is all in Christ. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS CONTAINED in this Book. A ACcidents of Bread and Wine without substance. Fol. 430, 439 Acts of the Apost. chap. 2. v. 42. 507 Adoration and Veneration. 208 S. Ambrose receiving the Sacrament in one kind. 503 Angels rejoicing at a sinner's repentance. 515 Angels whether adored? 327. 525 527 Antecedent will of God. 78 Apostolical Church. 64, 98 Assurance of faith. 165 S. Augustine. 21, 68, 122, 132, 200, 219, 273, 296, 323, 443 Authority of the Church. 10, 133, 300 B Baptism. 175, 177 Beginning of error, not always assigneable out of history. 131 A Body in many places. 180, 182, 183 The Brazen Serpent. 209 Bread called Christ's body. 397. a figure, 401. This is my body. 398, 416. Christ's body no fancy, 410, 448. not in many places at once, 450. Truly received in the Sacrament by faith. 184 C Caietan and others of Transubstantiation. 414, 182 A Camel through the eye of a needle. 411. Canonising of Saints. 297 The Canopy in the Greek Church 378 Chastity of votaries: 83 Certainty of faith, not from the Rom. Ch. only or principally. 5 Catholic Church. 194 Church taken in diverse notions. 49 It consisteth principally of just persons. 51. 53. Observations concerning the acceptation of the name Church. 51. the authority thereof in things adiaphorous. 133, 300. How the ground and pillar of truth. 3.53. The true Church perpetual. 58. It may err in delivery of Tradition. 88 it may be in few. 59, 67, 76, 104 A corrupt Church may teach some verity, and preserve the text of Scripture. 59, 117 The present Church not equal to the Apostolical. 118 Counsels and Precepts. 527.531 Coloss. cha. 1. v. 24. 559 Communion of Saints. 557 Communion in one kind. 459.470 Concomitance. 460 The Council of Constance. 474.501 The Council of Elliberis. 251 No general Council for the first 300 years. 119 Counsels of the late Rom. Ch. neither general nor lawful, 159. Papal Usurpation and Tyranny in them. 153 A lawful general Council desired by Protestants. 157. Acts of Counsels not preserved faithfully. 128 Corruptions in the Hierarch. Rom. Ch. 55.57.97 Conversion of bread into Christ Body. 399.400.421 The new Creed of Rome. 125 Curiosity to be avoided. 582 D Daniel, chap. 2. vers. 35. 4 Daniel, chap. 4. vers. 24. Redeem thy sins. 546 Discord among Teachers. 71.73 Discord of Romists. 108.583.585 E Epiphanius of Images. 252 Errors in the Church. 135. fundamental and preterfundamentall. 147.197 Esay, chap. 2. vers. 1. 4 Esay, chap. 63. 16. 320 The Eucharist received by the hand, 491. sent to private houses in both kinds, 504. no real Sacrifice. 464 Exposition of Scripture by Fathers. 45 F facial vision. 35 Divine Faith not grounded upon Eccles. History. 128. History not always assigneable for change of Faith. 131 Fasting not satisfactory to God for sin. 549 Father's authority, 68.87.129. their consent. 121 Doctor Field. 73.140.196.586 A Figure in the words, This is my body, 396.397 G Galath. chap. 3. 〈◊〉. maketh not for Images. 281 Gelasius against Transubst. 436. and against Communion in one kind. 499 Glass of the Trinity. 308 General Counsels. 152, 156 Good Works strengthen Faith. 519 The Greek Church. 115 H Half Communion no Sacrament. 484 An Heretic defined. 195 Hierarchiall Church. 55.57 Honorius Angustudonensis, of the iniquity of Romists. 112 Humane History no rule of Faith. 128, 131 I idolatry. 269 Indulgences and Pope's Pardons a late device, 562. granted for many thousand years. 564 Images and their Worship. 206.212 Images of the Trinity. 265 Images a snare to the simple. 267 Influence of Christ into Works, maketh them not meritorious. 515.516 Invocation of Saints. 288 S. john chap. 20. vers. 23. Whose sins you remit, etc. 191 justifying Faith. 162 K The Kingdom of Christ divided with the Virgin Marie. 362 Kings may be deposed by Popes and Bishops, is the Doctrine of many Pontificians. 575 L Latria or divine Worship. 241 Liturgy in a strange tongue. 365 Living Saints, & Prayers to them. 333 M Manner of Presence in the Eucharist. 391.406 Math. 16.18. Upon this Rock, etc. 3 Math. 22.37. Love the Lord with all thy heart. 523 Math. 26. Drink ye all of this. 488.492 Math. 28.20. I will be with you always, etc. 94.99 Merit of Works. 172.511 Merits of Saints deceased. 240 Mediator supreme and subordinate. 336 Miracles. 85.102 Mother Church. 126 Mother of mercy. 361 N Nicene second Council. 247 O Omnipotency. 181.446 Oblations to Saints. 348 Opposition to the Rom. Ch. 136 Ordination and Vocation of Pastors. 98 P Penance no Sacrament. stricter in the Primitive Church. 192. 539. 543 Penitentiary tax. 113 Popes no Lords of Purgatory. 567 Popish Faith novel. 129 Polidor Virgil of Images. 249 Prayer to Saints in set forms, etc. 352 Prayers in a known tongue, 366.373. on beads, 388. not meritorious. 548 Private Prayer in a known tongue. 383 Primacy of Peter. 157.570 Promise maketh not Works meritorious. 518 Punishment of chastisement. 540 Purging Authors. 125 Q The Queen of Heaven. 363 R Reading Scripture. 35.271.272.277.279 Real presence. 178.395 Reason when to be believed. 438 Receiving Scripture from the Church. 118 Religious honouring of Saints. 322 Repetitions of Creeds and Auees. 784 Reservation of the Eucharist, 432. in both kinds. 505 Resolution of Faith. 13, 15, 20, 25, 31, 38, 47 Roman Church, 1, 2, 103, 145. a particular Church, 109. not universal, 111. not Catholic, 201. a stepmother, 126. equal to other Churches. 109.145 Romists want Apost. Traditions. 125 586 Romists causers of discord. 109 Rule of Faith. 〈◊〉 S Sacramental union. 405 Saints not omniscient, 304. no Prophets, 312. in what manner like Angels, 317. no Patrons. 344 Sanctity of the Church, 81, 101, 102. and want hereof in the Rom. Ch. 5, 57 Satisfaction, 534, 541, 544, 555, 575 Separation from the Rom. Ch. 106 Serapions History, about one kind. 503 Schism. 107 Silence of History, no proof of Faith unchanged, 116, 131, 143, 144, 255 Spiritual presence. 396 Spiritual eating and drinking. 184 Scripture how proved Divine. 24, 30: the Mouth and Hand of God. 91. Sufficiency thereof, 37, 43, 147. preserved incorrupt in all ages, 23, 117, 124. wherein obscure, 35, 45. the translation thereof, 29. the exposition and sense, 45, 121, 123. more fundamental than Tradition unwritten, 49, 90. Papists depress Scripture. 92 Succession of Pastors, 65. of Romists, 115 Successor of Peter. 160 Supererogation. 522, 528 Supremacy Papal hath no ground in Scripture. 570 T Tertullian of the Scripture. 9 of Indulgences. 2. Timoth. 3. 15. etc. 39 Theoderit of Transubstantiation. 436 Titles of Canonical Books. 19 Tradition. 45, 91, 93, 150, 151, 580 Transubstantiation, 390. not grounded on Scripture, 182, 447. the same defined, 419. Caietan, Scotus, etc. touching it. 182, 414 Transelementation. 421 Transmutation. 420 The Treasure of the Church. 552 V Vasques about Adoration. 232 Virtues of just persons. 170 The B. Virgin no dispenser of Grace, 357, 360. Half Christ's Kingdom. 361, 362 visibility of the Church. 7, 50, 60, 96 Universality. 74, 101 W The Waldenses and Leonists, 105, 130, 139 Wicked persons no true Members of the Catholic Church. 53, 200 The wicked eat not Christ's flesh. 407 Wine as necessary as Bread in the Eucharist. 471 Worship of Images. 209, 228, 241 FINIS. Escapes in Printing. FOl. 3. D. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. fol. 31. E. for immediately, read mediately. fol. 50. D. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. fol. 49. C. for Pastres, read Pastors. fol 50. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ibid. D. after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, insert 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. fol 62 A. for Damascen, read 〈◊〉. fol. 62. B. for canta, read cauta. fol. 63. E. for innisible, read invisible. fol. 70. for desensoris, read Aug. c. Petil. d. 〈◊〉. fol. 106 B. for redargurere, read redarguere. fol. 109 for unde, read Otho Frising b. inde. fol. 117. C: for Agustine, read Augustine. fol. 127. Theoderit. A. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. fol. 132 E. to lawfulness, add whereof. fol. 138. Gregory. F. for commissi, read commisi. fol. 150. Tho. Wald. F. for centia, read sentio. fol. 281. Vasq F. for contemplate, read contemplati. fol. 291. B. for first, read fifth universal Council. fol. 300. A. for is expressly, read is not expressly. fol. 327. B. Alchasar, for ille, read illi. fol. 360. E. Stel. Cor. Mar. for animas, read animam. fol. 524. August. B. for praefect, read de perfectione. Ibid. Arausican. Concil. C. for gratiae, read gratia. Ibid. Bernard. d. for Notal. read Natal. Dom. fol. 527. August. C. for invenire, read invenies. fol. 557. F. for owards, read towards. fol. 559. Theoderit. D. for solutis, read salutis. fol. 560. A. for Guilliandus, read Guilliaudus. fol. 563. for Scoto, read Soto, m. fol. 564. A. Enchir. Sarisb. for undecima, read undecem. AN ANSWER TO Mr FISHERS Relation of a Third Conference between a certain B. (as he styles him) and himself. The Conference was very private, till Mr FISHER spread certain Papers of it, which in many respects deserved an Answer. Which is here given by R. B. Chaplain to the B. that was employed in the Conference. LONDON, Printed by ADAM ISLIP. 1624. TO THE READER. THis which follows, though it needeth Patronage, as great as may be had; yet it is such, as may not presume to ask it: therefore it thrusts itself to the End of these Labours, that it may seem to have the same Patron. I would have put nothing before it, were it not necessary you should know the Cause why the following Discourse was written; why it stayed so long, before it looked upon the Light; and why it is not able yet to go alone, but is led abroad by this former Worke. The Cause why it was written, was this. A certain B. (in the Iesuit's style) was called and required to a a May 24. 1622. Conference by Them that might command him. The jesuit with whom he had to deal, was Mr Fisher. He began with great Protestations of seeking the Truth only, and for itself. I would the B. could have found it so. After the Conference ended (a great part of which time he spent, in reading a passage out of a Book which himself had printed) the B. not suspecting any such thing, he spread abroad Papers of the Conference, which were full of partialicie to his Cause, and more full of Calumny against the B. Hereupon the B. delivered me the Papers that were spread, and a Note what was mis-spread in them, to the uttermost of his Memory, and other helps. And I not departing from that, have here entirely delivered it to the use of the Church. There was a Cause also why it stayed so long, before it could endure to be pressed, and you must know that too. It was not my idleness, nor my unwillingness, to right both the B. and his Cause against the Paper that was scattered: For I have most Honourable Witnesses, that this Thing (such as it is) was finished long since: for the Papers came to my hand after Michaelmas 1622. and I finished this Relation to them that Term. But the cause was partly mine own backwardness to deal with these men: For they pretend only for Truth and Unity, but will 〈◊〉 neither, unless they and their Faction may prevail in all. Whereas it is a thing impossible, so many devout and learned men, in diverse Ages and Parts of the Church, should still pray, and sometimes call for a Reformation, if the Church had not warped at all, or if no b And the Rom. Court, the great misleader in all this. For in jul. 3. time, the 〈◊〉 of Trent not dissolved. Ru. Tapper in the presence of Lindan with griefeacknowledges, Abusus Ro. Curiae enexcusabiles, Inexcusable abuses of the Court of Rome. Orat. 10. Reformation were necessary. And partly because there were about that time, three Conferences with Mr. Fisher, Two, at which the worthy Author of this foregoing Discourse was present. This was the Third, and therefore could not well and conveniently come into the world, till the two former (upon which it somewhat depended) had showed themselves. And the Cause why it cannot yet go alone, but is led into public by this former Work, is, because before those Nine Articles there goeth a Preface, which together with some of the Articles themselves are the main and substance of all that passed in the Two former Conferences; and so they are fittest to take this Third by the hand, and lead it forth. I have thus far acquainted you with the Occasion of the ensuing discourse. I have been a faithful Relator of all passages, and the B, protests he hath been faithful in relating to me. But I cannot but 〈◊〉 (and he hath c And he that hath hard Bowels is a stranger to God, who in other things, (and so in the distractions and sufferings of his Church, much more) is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bonorum viscerum Deus. S. jaco. 5. 11 Et Hypol. Orat de consummate. Mund. Pia Mosis viscera. S. Aug. ser. 18. de verb. Dom. c. 21. d. Phil. 2.21. hard Bowels that grieves not) to see Christendom bleeding in dissension: Nay, which is far worse, triumphing in her own blood, and most angry with them that study her Peace. In the mean time there are Sua, their own things, which S. Paul tells us, All men seek, and not the things that are jesus Christ's. And Religion, so much pretended and called upon; and the Church, the Church, so much honoured in name; are but the stalking horse, other Fowl are shot at Complaint is but a seeming ease of weaker spirits: it can help nothing; And since it cannot, use these Papers for a little support: It may be these may give some stay till God give stronger. So I leave you to be indifferent between the B. and M. Fisher: and for myself, I shall have reward enough, if you pray for Peace and Truth in the Church, and so for me. Yours in Christ, whom I labour to serve, R. B. A * These are M. Fishers own words, in the Paper by him spread; as also all that follow the Letter F. BRIEF RELATION OF WHAT PASSED in a third private CONFERENCE, between a certain B. and me, BEFORE etc. ANSWERED BY R. B. Chaplain to the B. I hope you will pardon the B. if just occasion hath spun my Answer for him to † Longiore morâ opus est, ut soluas quaestionem, quam ut proponas. Sen. Ep. 48. length. F. The Occasion of this Conference, was. B. THE Occasion of this third Conference you should know sufficiently; you were an Actor in it, as well as the rest. Whether you have related the two former truly, appears by Dr Whites Relation, or Exposition of them. The B. was present at none, but this third, of which he is ready by me to give the Church an account. But of this third, whether that were the cause which you allege, he cannot tell: You say, F. (It was) observed, That in the second Conference, all the speech was about particular matters; little, or none, about a continual, infallible, visible Church, which was the chief and only Point (in which the person doubting) required satisfaction: as having formerly settled their mind, That it was not for them or any other unlearned persons to take upon them to judge of particulars, without depending upon the judgement of the true Church. B. The opinion of that person in this, was never opened to the B. And it is very fit the people should look to the judgement of the Church, before they be too busy with particulars. But yet neither a 1. Cor. 10. 15. Quis non sine ullo Magistro aut interpret, ex se facile cognoscat, etc. Novat. de Trin. c. 23. (& loquitur de mysterio Passionis Christi.) Scripture, nor any good Authority, denies them some moderate use of their own understanding and judgement, especially in things familiar and evident, which even ordinary Capacities may as easily understand, as read: And therefore some particulars a Christian may judge, without depending. F. (That person) therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference, That there must be a continual visible Company ever since Christ, teaching unchanged Doctrine in all fundamental Points, that is, Points necessary to Salvation; desired to hear this confirmed, and proof brought, which was that continual, infallible, visible Church, in which one may, and out of which one cannot attain Salvation. And therefore having appointed a time of meeting between a B. and me, and thereupon having sent for the B. and me, before the B. came (the doubting persons) came first to the room where I was, and debated before me the aforesaid Question; and not doubting of the first part, to wit, That there must be a continual visible Church, as they had heard granted by Dr White and L. K. etc. B. What Dr White and L. K. granted, neither the B. nor I heard. But I think, both granted a continual and a visible Church; neither of them an infallible, at least in your sense. And yourself, in this Relation, speak distractedly: For in these few Lines from the beginning hither, twice you add infallible between continual and visible, and twice you leave it out. But this concerneth Dr W. and he hath answered it. F. The Question was, Which was that Church? (One) would needs defend, That not only the Roman, but also the Greek Church was right. B. When that Honourable Personage answered, I was not by to hear. But I presume he was so far from granting, that only the Roman Church was right, as that he did not grant it right: and that he took on him no other defence of the poor Greek Church, than was according to Truth. F. I told him, That the Greek Church had plainly changed and taught false, in a Point of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost; and that I had heard say, that even his Majesty should say, That the Greek Church having erred against the Holy Ghost, had lost the Holy Ghost. B. You are very bold with his Majesty, to relate him upon hearsay. My intelligence serves me not, to tell you what his Majesty said: but if he said it not, you have been too credulous to believe, and too sudden to report it. Princes deserve, and were wont to have more respect than so. If his Majesty did say it, there is truth in the speech; the error is yours only, by mistaking what is meant by losing the Holy Ghost. For a particular Church may be said to lose the Holy Ghost two ways, or in two degrees: The one, when it loses such special assistance of that blessed Spirit, as preserves it from all dangerous errors, and fins, and the temporal punishment which is due unto them: And in this sense, the Greek Church lost the Holy Ghost; for they erred against him, they sinned against God: and for this, or other sins, they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turk; in which they yet are, and from which God in his mercy deliver them. The other is, when it loses not only this assistance, but all assistance ad hoc; to this, that they may remain any longer a true Church. And so Corinth, and Ephesus, and diverse others, have lost the Holy Ghost. But in this sense, the whole Greek Church lost not the Holy Ghost; for they continue a true Church in substance, to and at this day, though erroneous in the point which you mention. F. (The said person) not knowing what to answer, called in the B. who sitting down first, excused himself, as one unprovided, and not much studied in Controversies, and desiring, that in case he should fail, yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of. B. The B. indeed excused himself, and he had great reason so to do. But his Reason being grounded upon his Modesty for the most part, he is willing I should let you insult at your pleasure. This only by the way: It may be fit others should know, the B. had no information, where the other Conferences broke off; no instruction, what should be the ground of this third Conference; nor the full time of four and twenty hours, to bethink himself: whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Bran, your daily work, and came throughly furnished to the business. Saint Augustine a De 〈◊〉 Cred. cap. 2. said once, Scio me invalidum esse, I know I am weak; and yet he made good his Cause. And the B. preferring the Cause before his Credit, was modest and reasonable: For there is no reason, the weight of that whole Cause should rest upon any one particular; and great reason, that the personal defects of any man should press him, but not the Cause. F. It having a hundred better Scholars to maintain it, than he. To which I said, There were a thousand better Scholars than I, to maintain the Catholic Cause. B. The B. in this had never so poor a conceit of the Protestants Cause, as to think they had but a hundred better than he, to maintain it. That which hath a hundred, may have as many more, as it pleases God to give, and more than you. And the B. shall ever be glad, that the Church of England (which at this time, if his memory reflect not amiss, he named) may have far more able defendants than himself: he shall never envy them, but rejoice for her. And he makes no question, but that if he had named a thousand, you would have multiplied yours into ten thousand, for the Catholic Cause, as you call it. And this confidence of yours hath ever been fuller of noise, than proof. But you admonish again. F. Then the Question about the Greek Church being proposed, I said as before, that it had erred. B. Then I think the Question about the Greek Church was proposed. But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say, That what the B. would not acknowledge in this cause, you would wring and extort from him; then indeed you said as before, that it had erred: And this no man denied. But every Error denies not Christ, the Foundation; or makes Christ deny, it, or thrust it from the Foundation. F. The B. said, That the Error was not in Point fundamental. B. The B. was not so peremptory. His speech was, That diverse learned men, and some of your own, were of opinion, That (as the greeks expressed themselves) it was a Question not simply Fundamental. The B. knows and acknowledges that Error, of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, to be a grievous Error in Divinity. And sure it would have grated the Foundation, if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, as that they had made an inequality between the Persons. But since their form of speech is, a Non ex 〈◊〉 sed Spiritum 〈◊〉 esse dicimus. Damascen. Lib. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per Filium. Ib. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Son, and is the Spirit of the Son, without making any difference in the consubstantiality of the Persons; the B. dares not deny them to be a true Church for this, though he confesses them an erroneous Church in this particular. Now that diverse learned men were of opinion, That à Filio, & per Filium, in the sense of the Greek Church, was but a Question, in modo loquendi, in manner of speech b Pluralitas in voce saluataê unitate in re, non repugnat unitati fidei. Durand. lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. , and therefore not fundamental, is evident. c Magist. 1. Sent. D. 11. d. Sane sciendum est, quod licet in praesenti articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent, tamen sensu non differunt, etc. Bandinus, l. 1. de Trin. d. 11. & Bonauent. in 1. Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis 〈◊〉, quùm dixit Graecos obijcere 〈◊〉 Romans addendo (Filioque) quia sine huius Articuli professione salus erat, non respondet negando salutem esse, sed dicit tantum, opportunam fuisse determinationem propter periculum. Et postea, §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum & Latinorum, distinguendo duplicem modum procedendi. Sed fortè si duo sapientes, unus Graecus, alter Latinus, uterque verus amator veritatis, & non propriae dictionis etc. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent, pateret utique tandem ipsam contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem, sicut est vocalis. Scotus, in 1. Sen. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis discrepantia in voce potius est, & modo explicandi Emanationem Sp. S. quam in ipsaê re etc. jodocus Clichtovaeus in Damasc. L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et quidam ex Graecis concedunt, quod sit à Filio, vel ab eo profluat. Thom. p. 1. q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit Sp. S. procedere mediatè à Filio. Ib. A 3. ad 1. saltem ratione personarum spirantium. Respondeo cum Bessarione & Gennadio Damascenum non negasse Sp. S. procedere ex Filio quod ad rem attinet, quum dixerit 〈◊〉 esse imaginem Filij & per Filium, sed existimasse 〈◊〉 dici per Filium, quam ex Filio, quantum ad 〈◊〉 joquendi, etc. Bellarm. lib. 2. 〈◊〉 Christo, c. 27. §. Respondeo igitur, & Tollet. in S. joh. 15. Ar. 25. & Lutheran. Resp. ad Resp. 2. jeremiaes Patriarchae. The Master and his Scholars agree upon it. The greeks (saith he) confess the holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son, with the Apostle, Galat. 4. and the Spirit of Truth, S. joh. 16. And since, Non est aliud, It is not another thing to say, The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, then that he is or proceeds from the Father and the Son; in this they seem to agree with us in eandem Fidei Sententiam, upon the same Sentence of Faith, though they differ in words. Now in this cause, where the words differ, but the sentence of Faith is the same, a Eadem penitus Sententia, ubi supra Clichtou. 〈◊〉 eadem, even altogether the same, Can the Point be fundamental? You may make them no Church (as b Bellaram. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. Bellarmine doth) and so deny them salvation, which cannot be had out of the true Church; but the B. dares not. It ought to be no easy thing, to condemn a man of Heresy, in foundation of Faith; much less, a Church; least of all, so ample and large a Church as the Greek, especially so, as to make them no Church. Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes, when S. Peter wore the Keys at his own Girdle: And it is good counsel which Alphonsus à Castro c Lib. 3. contra Haeres. fol. 93. A. , one of your own, gives; Let them consider, that pronounce easily of Heresy, how easy it is for themselves to err. Or if you will pronounce, consider what it is that separates from the Church simply, and not in part only. I must needs profess d junius Animadin Bellarm. Cont. 2. l. 3. c. 23. , that I wish heartily, as well as others, that those distressed men, whose Cross is heavy already, had been more plainly and moderately dealt withal, though they think a divers thing from us, than they have been by the Church of Rome. But hereupon you say you were forced. F. Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly brought against Dr. White, concerning Points Fundamental. B. Hereupon it is true, that you read a large discourse out of a Book printed, which you said was yours. The particulars (all of them at the least) the B. tells me, he doth not now remember, and is sure he did not then approve. But if they be such as were formerly brought against 〈◊〉 White, they are by him formerly answered. The first thing you did, was the righting of S. Augustine † F. First righting the Sentence of S. Austin, Ferendus est disputator errans, etc. : Which Sentence the B. doth not at all remember was so much as named in the third Conference, much less was it stood upon, and then righted by you. Another place of S. Augustine indeed was (which you omit) but the place of it comes after, about Tradition, to which I remit it. But you tell us of a great proof made out of this place * F. By which is proved, That all Points defined by the Church, are fundamental. . These words contain two Propositions: One, That all Points defined by the Church, are Fundamental; The other, That this is proved out of this place of S. Augustine. 1. For the first, That all Points defined by the Church, are Fundamental. It was not the least means by which Rome grew to her Greatness, to blast every Opposer she had, with the name of Heretic, or Schismatic; for this served to shrivel the credit of the persons: and the persons once brought into contempt, and ignominy, all the good they desired in the Church, fell to dust, for want of creditable persons to back and support it. To make this proceeding good in these later years, this course (it seems) was taken. The School, that must maintain (and so they do) That all Points defined by the Church, are thereby a Your own word. Fundamental, b Inconcussâ fide ab omnibus. Thom 2.2. q. 1. Art. 10. C. necessary to be believed, c Scotus, 1. sent. d. 11. q. 1. of the substance of the Faith, and that, though it be determined quite d Ecclesiae voces etiam extra Scripturam. Stap. Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. Quae maturo iudicio definivit, etc. solidum est, & etiamsi nullo scripturarum aut evidenti, aut probabili testimonio confirmaretur. Ibid. Extra Scripturam. And then e Et penes Cercopes victoria sit. Greg. Naz. de differens. vitae. Cercopes 1. Astutos & veteratoriae improbitatis Episcopos, qui artibus suis ac dolis omnia Concilia perturbabant. Scholar ib. leave the wise and active heads to take order, that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them. But since these men distinguish not, nor you, between the Church in general, and a General Council, which is but her Representation, for determinations of the Faith; the B. though he be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by lawful, general, and consenting Authority; though he give as much as can be given to the definitions of Counsels, truly general: nay, suppose he should grant (which he doth not) That General Counsels cannot err, yet this cannot downe with him, That all Points even so defined, are Fundamental. For Deductions are not prime and Native Principles, nor are Superstructures, Foundations. That which is a Foundation for all, cannot be one, and another, in different Christians; for than it could be no constant Rule for any, nor could the souls of men rest upon a shaking Foundation. No: If it be a true Foundation, it must be common to all, and firm under all; in which sense, the Articles of Christian Faith are Fundamental. And f Quum enim una & eadem fides sit, neque is qui multum de ipsa dicere potest plusquam oportet dicit; neque qui parum, ipsam imminuit. Iren. li. 1. advers. Haer. c. 3. Irenaeus lays this for a ground, That the whole Church (howsoever dispersed in place) speaks this with one mouth. He which among the Guides of the Church is best able to speak, utters no more than this; and less than this, the most simple doth not utter. Therefore the Creed (of which he speaks) is a common, is a constant Foundation: and an Explicite Faith must be of this, in them which have the use of Reason; for both Guides and simple people, all the Church, utter this. Now many things are defined by the Church, which are but Deductions out of this: which, suppose them deduced right, move far from the Foundation; without which Deductions, explicitly believed, many millions of Christians go to Heaven, and cannot therefore be Fundamental in the Faith. True Deductions from the Article, may require necessary belief in them which are able, and do go along with them, from the Principle to the Conclusion: but I do not see either that the Learned do make them necessary to all, or any reason why they should: Therefore they cannot be Fundamental. Besides, that which is Fundamental in the Faith of Christ, is a Rock immovable, and can never be varied: Never a Resolutio Occham est, quod nec 〈◊〉, nec 〈◊〉 Generale, nec summus Pontifex potest facere Articulum, quod non suit Articulus. Sed in dubijs propositionibus potest Ecclesia 〈◊〉 an sint Catholicae, etc. 〈◊〉 sic determinando non 〈◊〉, quod sint Catholicae quum prius essent ante Ecclesiae determinationem, etc. Almain. in 3. D. 25. q. 1. . Therefore, if it be Fundamental after the Church hath defined it, it was Fundamental before the definition; else it is movable, and then no Christian hath where to rest. And if it be immovable, as b Regula fidei una 〈◊〉 est, sola illa immobilis & irreformabilis. Tertull. de 〈◊〉. vel. cap. 1. In hac fide, etc. nihil tran. mutare, etc. Athan. epist. ad jovin. de fide. indeed it is, no Decree of a Council, be it never so general, can alter immovable Verities, no more than it can change immovable Natures. Therefore, if the Church in a Council define any thing, the thing defined is not Fundamental, because the Church hath defined it; nor can be made so by the definition of the Church, if it be not so in itself. For if the Church had this power, she might make a new Article of the Faith, c Occam, Almain. 3. sent. D. 25. q. 1. which the Learned among yourselves deny: For the Articles of the Faith cannot increase in substance, but only in explication d Thom. 2.2. q. 1. Ar. 7. C. . Nor is this hard to be proved out of your own School; for e Scotus, in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Scotus professeth it in this very particular of the Greek Church: If there be (saith he) a true real difference between the greeks and the Latins about the Point of the Procession of the Holy Ghost, then either they or we be vere Haeretici, truly and indeed Heretics. And he speaks this of the old greeks, long before any decision of the Church in this Controversy: For his instance, is in S. Basil, and Greg. Nazianz. on the one side, and S. Jerome, Augustine, and Ambrose, on the other. And who dares call any of these Heretics? is his challenge. I deny not, but that Scotus adds there, That howsoever this was before, yet ex quo, from the time that the Catholic Church declared it, it is to be held as of the substance of Faith. But this cannot stand with his former Principle, if he intent by it, That whatsoever the Church defines, shall be ipso facto, and for that determinations sake Fundamental. For if before the determination (supposing the difference real) some of those Worthies were truly Heretics (as he confesses) then somewhat made them so; and that could not be the Decree of the Church, which then was not: Therefore it must be somewhat really false, that made them so; and fundamentally false, if it had made them Heretics against the Foundation. But Scotus was wiser, than to intend this. It may be he saw the stream too strong for him to swim against, therefore he went on with the Doctrine of the time, That the Church's Sentence is of the substance of Faith, but meant not to betray the Truth; for he goes no further than Ecclesia declaravit, since the Church hath declared it, which is the word that is used by diverse a Bellarm. l. 2. de Conc. Auth. cap. 12. Concilia quùm definiunt, non faciunt aliquid esse infallibilis veritatis, sed declarant. Explicare, Bonavent. in 1. D. 11. A. 1. q. 1. ad finem. Explanare, declarare, Th. 1. q. 36. A. 2. ad 2. & 2. 2. q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. . Now the b Sent. 1. D. 11. Master teaches, and the c Aib. Mag. in 〈◊〉 Sent. D. 11. Art. 7. Scholars too, That every thing which belongs to the exposition or declaration of another, intus est, is not another contrary thing, but is contained within the bowels and nature of that which is interpreted: from which, if the declaration depart, it is faulty and erroneous, because in stead of declaring, it gives another and a contrary d Nos semper nec quicquam praetereà. Vin. Lir. c. 32. sense. Therefore, when the Church declares any thing in a Council, either that which she declares, was Intus, or Extra, in the nature and verity of the thing, or out of it. If it were Extra, without the nature of the thing declared; then the declaration of the thing is false, and so, far from being fundamental in the Faith e In nova haeresi veritas prius erat de fide etsi non ita declarata. Scotus, in 1. D. 11. q. 1. in fine. Haeretici multa quae erant implicita fidei nostrae compulerunt explicare. Bonauent. in 1. D. 11. A. 1. q. 1. ad finem. Thom. 1. q. 36. A. 2. ad 2. . If it were Intus, within the compass and nature of the thing, though not expert and apparent to every Eye; then the declaration is true, but not otherwise fundamental, than the thing is which is declared: For Intus cannot be larger or deeper than that in which it is; if it were, it could not be Intus. Therefore nothing is simply fundamental, because the Church declares it, but because it is so in the nature of the thing which the Church declares. And it is a slight and poor evasion that is commonly used, That the declaration of the Church makes it fundamental, quoad nos, in respect of us; for it doth not that neither: for no respect to us, can vary the Foundation. The Church's declaration can bind us to peace, and external obedience, where there is not express letter of Scripture and sense agreed on; but it cannot make any thing fundamental to us, that is not so in the nature of it. For if the Church can so add, that it can by a Declaration make a thing to be fundamental in the Faith, that was not, than it can take a thing from the foundation, and make it by declaring, not to be fundamental; which all men grant, no power of the Church can do: For the power of adding any thing contrary, and of detracting any thing necessary, are alike f Deut. 4.2. Tho. Suppl. q. 6. A. 6. C. forbidden. Now nothing is more apparent than this to the eye of all men, That the Church of Rome hath determined, or declared, or defined (call it what you will) very many things, that are not in their own nature fundamental, and therefore neither are, not can be made so, by her adjudging them. 2. For the second, That it is proved by this place of S. Augustine, That all Points defined by the Church, are fundamental. You might have given me that place cited in the Margin, and eased my pains to seek it; but it may be there was somewhat in concealing it: For you do so extraordinarily right this place, that you were loath (I think) any 〈◊〉 should see how you wrong it. The place of S. Augustine is this, against the Pelagians, about Remission of Original sin in Infants: a August. Serm. 14. de verb. Apost. c. 12. Fundata res est. In aliis quaestionib' non diligenter digestis, nondum plenaê Ecclesiae authoritate 〈◊〉 ferendus est disputator errans: ibi ferendu; est Error, non tantum progredi debet, ut etiam fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliatur. This is a thing founded; An erring Disputor is to be borne with in other Questions not diligently digested, not yet made firm by 〈◊〉 Authority of the Church, their Error is to be borne with: but it ought not to go so far, that it should labour to shake the Foundation itself of the Church. This is the place: but it can never follow out of this place (I think) That every thing defined by the Church, is Fundamental. For first, he speaks of a Foundation of Doctrine in Scripture, not a Church definition. This appears: for few Lines before he tells us, b Ibid. cap. 20. There was a Question moved to S. Cyprian, Whether Baptism was concluded to the eight day, as well as Circumcision? And no doubt was made then of the c Origine 〈◊〉. beginning of Sin, and that d Ex eaê re unde nulla erat quaestio, 〈◊〉 est exorta quaestio. out of this thing about which no Question was moved, that Question that was made, was answered. And e Hoc de Fundamento Ecclesiae sumpfit ad confirmandum Lapidem nutantem. again, That S. Cyprian took that which he gave in answer, from the Foundation of the Church, to confirm a Stone that was shaking. Now S. Cyprian, in all the Answer that he gives, hath not one word of any definition of the Church: therefore Ea Res, That thing by which he answered, was a Foundation of prime and settled Scripture Doctrine, not any definition of the Church: Therefore, that which he took from the Foundation of the Church, to fasten the Stone that shook, was not a definition of the Church, but the Foundation of the Church itself, the Scripture, upon which it builded: as appeareth in the f Concil. Milevit. c. 2. Milevitan Council; where, the Rule by which Pelagius was condemned, is the Rule of g Rom. 5.15. Scripture, Rom. 5.12. Therefore S. Augustine goes on in the same sense, That the Disputor is not to be borne any longer, that shall h Vt Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliatur. endeavour to shake the Foundation itself, upon which the whole Church is grounded. Secondly, If S. Augustine did mean by Founded and Foundation, the definition of the Church, because of these words, This thing is founded, This is made firm by full authority of the Church, and the words following these, To shake the foundation of the Church; yet it can never follow out of any, or all these Circumstances (and these are all That all Points defined by the Church, are Fundamental in the Faith. For first, no man denies, but the Church is a i 1. Tim. 3.15. Foundation; That things defined by it, are founded upon it: And yet hence it cannot follow, That the thing that is so founded, is Fundamental in the Faith; for things may be a Mos fundatissimus. S. Aug. ep. 28. founded upon humane Authority, and be very certain, yet not Fundamental in the Faith: Nor yet can it follow, This thing is founded, therefore every thing determined by the Church, is founded. Again, that which follows, That those things are not to be opposed which are made firm by full Authority of the Church, cannot conclude they are therefore fundamental in the Faith: For full Church Authority, is but Church Authority; and Church Authority, when it is at full Sea (the time that included the Apostles, being past, and not comprehended in it) is not simply Divine b Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. 1. : therefore the Sentence of it not fundamental in the Faith. And yet no erring Disputor may be endured to shake the Foundation which the Church in Council lays: But plain Scripture, with evident sense, or a full demonstrative argument, must have room, where a wrangling and erring Disputor may not be allowed it. And there's neither of these but may convince the definition of the Council, if it be ill founded. And the Articles of the Faith may easily prove it is not fundamental, if in deed and verity it be not so. And the B. hath read some body, that says (Is it not you?) That things are fundamental in the Faith two ways: One, in their Matter, such as are all things as be so in themselves; the other, in the Manner, such as are all things that the Church hath defined, and determined to be of Faith: And that so, some things that are de modo, of the manner of being, are of Faith. But in plain truth, this is no more, than if you should say, Some things are fundamental in the Faith, and some are not. For wrangle while you will, you shall never be able to prove, That any thing which is but de modo, a consideration of the manner of being only, can possibly be fundamental in the Faith. And since you make such a Foundation of this place, I will a little view the Mortar with which it is laid by you; it is a venture but I shall find it c Ezech. 13.11. untempered. Your assertion is, All Points defined by the Church, are fundamental: your proof, this place, Because that is not to be shaken, which is settled d Plenaê 〈◊〉 Authoritate. by full authority of the Church. Then it seems your meaning is, that this Point there spoken of, The remission of 〈◊〉 sin in Baptism of Infants, was defined, when S. Augustine wrote this, by a full Sentence of a General Council. First, If you say it was, e Lib. 2. de Aut. Conc. c. 5. A solis particularibus. Bellarmine will tell you it is false; and that the Pelagian Heresy was never condemned in an Ecumenical Council, but only in Nationalls. But Bellarmine is deceived: for while they stood out impudently against national Counsels, some of them defended Nestorius; which gave occasion to the first f Can. 1. & 〈◊〉. Ephesine Council to excommunicate and depose them. And yet this will not serve your turn for this place: For S. Augustine was then dead, and therefore could not mean the Sentence of that Council in this place. Secondly, And if you say it was not then defined in an Ecumenical Synod, plena Authoritas Ecclesiae, the full Authority of the Church, there mentioned, doth not stand properly for the Decree of an Ecumenical Council, but for some national; as this was condemned in a a Concil. Milevit. Can. 2. national Council: and then the full Authority of the Church here, is no more than the full Authority of this Church of b Nay, if your own Capellus be true, De Apple. Eccl. Afric. c. 2. n. 5. It was but a Provincial of Numidia, not a Plenary of Africa. Africa. And I hope that Authority doth not make all Points defined by it, to be Fundamental: You will say, Yes, if that Council be confirmed by the Pope. And I must ever wonder why S. Augustine should say, The full Authority of the Church, and not bestow one word upon the Pope, by whose Authority only that Council, as all other, have their fullness of Authority, in your judgement. An inexpiable omission, if this Doctrine concerning the Pope were true. F. Secondly, I required to know what Points the B. would account Fundamental. He said, All the Points of the Creed were such. B. Against this, I hope you except not. For since the c Tertull. Apol. contra gentes, c. 47. de 〈◊〉. Virg. cap. 1. S. August. Serm. 15. de Temp. cap. 2. 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉. apud Cyprianum, p. 357. Fathers make the Creed the Rule of Faith, d Alb. Mag. in 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. since the agreeing sense of Scripture with those Articles, are the two Regular Precepts by which a Divine is governed, about the Faith; since your own e Concil. Trid. Sess. 3. Council of Trent decrees, That it is that Principle of Faith, in which all that profess Christ do necessarily agree, Et Fundamentum firmum & unicum, not the firm alone, but the only Foundation; since it is Excommunication f 〈◊〉. ibid. Dub. 2. & 3. in Literam. ipso iure, for any man to contradict the Articles contained in that Creed; since the whole body of the Faith is so contained in the Creed, as that the g Thom. 2. 2. q. 1. A. 7. C. substance of it was believed even before the coming of Christ, though not so expressly, as since in the number of the Articles; since Bellarmine h 4. de verb. Dei, non Scrip. cap. 11. confesses, That all things simply necessary for all men's salvation, are in the Creed and the Decalogue: What reason can you have to except? And yet for all this, every thing Fundamental is not of a like nearness to the Foundation, nor of equal Primenesse in the Faith. And the B. granting the Creed to be Fundamental, doth not deny, but that there are i Ibid. Thom. Quaedam prima Credibilia, Certain prime Principles of Faith, in the bosom whereof all other Articles lay wrapped and folded up: One of which, since Christ, is that of S. john k 1. joh. 4. 2. , Every Spirit that confesseth jesus Christ come in the flesh, is of God: And one, both before the coming of Christ, and since, is that of S. Paul a Heb. 11.6. , He that comes to God, must believe that God is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek him. F. I asked, How then it happened, as Mr Rogers saith, that the English Church is not yet resolved, what is the right sense of the Article of Christ's descending into Hell. B. The English Church never made doubt (that I know) what was the sense of that Article. The words are so plain, they bear their meaning before them. She was content to put that Article b Art. 3. among those, to which she requires subscription, not as doubting of the sense, but to prevent the Cavils of some, who had been too busy in crucifying that Article, and in making it all one with the Article of the Cross, or but an Exposition of it. And sure the B. thinks, and so do I, That the Church of England is better resolved of the right sense of this Article, than the Church of Rome; especially if she must be tried by her Writers, as you try the Church of England by Mr Rogers. For you cannot agree, whether this Article be a mere Tradition, or whether it hath any place of Scripture to warrant it. c In 1. D. 11. q. 〈◊〉. Scotus and d Rel. Con. 5. q. 5. A. 1. Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture; but e 4. de Christo, c. 6. & 12. Scripturae passim hoc docent. Bellarmine is resolute, that this Article is every where in Scripture; and f 2.2. q. 1. A. 9 ad 1. Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed. The Church of England never doubted it, and S. Augustine g Epist. 99 proves it. And yet again you are different for the sense: For you agree not, whether the Soul of Christ, in triduo mortis, in the time of his death, did go down into Hell really, and was present there; or virtually, and by effects only: For h Th. p. 3. q. 52. A. 2. C. per 〈◊〉 essentiam. Thomas holds the first, and i Dur. in 3. d. 22. q. 3. Durand holds the latter. Then you agree not, whether the Soul of Christ did descend really, and in essence, into the lowest Pit of Hell, and place of the Damned, as k L. 4. de Christo, c. 16. Bellarmine once held probable, and proved it; or really only into that place or Region of Hell, which you call Limbum Patrum, and then but virtually from thence into the Lower Hell: to which l Recogn. p. 11. Bellarmine reduces himself, and gives his reason, because it is the m Sequuntur 〈◊〉 Tho. p. 3. q 52. A. 2. common opinion of the School. Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed, and believes them, without further dispute, and in that sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in. And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolved in the sense of this Article, Is it not as lawful for them to say, (I conceive thus, or thus, of it; yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer than this, I deny it not, but as yet I know no other) as it was for a In 3. D. 22. q. 3. n. 9 Durand to say it, and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith? F. The B. said, That Mr Rogers was but a private man. But (said I) if Mr Rogers (writing as he did by public Authority) be accounted only a private man, etc. B. The B. said truth, when he said Mr Rogers was a private man. And I take it, you will not allow every speech of every man, though allowed by Authority to be printed, to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome. This hath been oft complained of on both sides, The imposing particular men's Assertions upon the Church: yet I see, you mean not to leave it. And surely, as Controversies are now handled (by some of your party) at this day, I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand, but I have long thought it a kind of descent into Hell, to be conversant in them. I would the Authors would take heed in time, and not seek to blind the people, or cast a mist before evident Truth, lest it cause a final descent to that place of Torment. But since you hold this course, Stapleton was of greater note with you, than Rogers is with us; and as he, so his Relection: And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which he affirms, b Cont. 5. q. 5. A. 1. The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell, and that there is a Catholic and an Apostolic Church? If it be, then what will become of the Pope's Supremacy over the whole Church? Shall he have his power over the Catholic Church given him expressly in Scripture, in c Matth. 16.19. the Keys to enter, and in d joh. 21.15. Pasce, to feed when he is in; and when he hath fed, to e Luc. 22.32. confirm; and in all these, not to err and fail in his ministration: And is the Catholic Church, in and over which he is to do all these great things, quite left out? Belike, the Holy Ghost was careful to give him his power; Yes, in any case; but left the assigning of his great Cure, the Catholic Church, to Tradition: And it were well for him, if he could so prescribe for what he now claims. But what if after all this, Mr Rogers there says no such thing? as in truth he doth not. His words are: f Rogers, in Art. Eccl. Angl. Art. 3. All Christians acknowledge he descended; but in the interpretation of the Article, there is not that consent that were to be wished. What is this to the Church of England, more than others? And again, g Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article, is Mr Rogers (We) the Church of England? or rather, his and some others judgement of the Church of England? F. But if Mr Rogers be only a private man; In what Book may we find the Protestants public Doctrine? The B. answered, That to the Book of Articles they were all sworn. B. What, was the B. so ignorant, to say, The Articles of the Church of England were the public Doctrine of all the Protestants? or, That all Protestants were sworn to the Articles of England, as this speech seems to imply? Sure he was not. Was not the immediate speech before, of the Church of England? And how comes the subject of the speech to be varied in the next Lines? Nor yet speak I this, as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines against which they jointly take exceptions against the Roman Church, as appears by their several Confessions. Nor did the B. say, That the Book of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of England's public Doctrine: She is not so narrow, nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers; nor doth she wittingly permit any crossing of her public declarations: Yet she is not such a Shrew to her Children, as to deny her Blessing, or denounce an Anathema against them, if some peaceably descent in some particulars, remoter from the Foundation, as your own Schoolmen differ. And if the Church of Rome, since she grew to her greatness, had not been so fierce in this course, Christendom (I persuade myself) had been in happier peace at this day. F. And that the Scriptures only, not any unwritten Tradition, was the Foundation of their Faith. B. The Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture; and her Negative Refute, where the thing affirmed by you, is not affirmed in Scripture, nor directly to be concluded out of it. And since you are pleased before to pass from the Church of England to all Protestants, you may know for your comfort, that all Protestants agree most strongly in this, That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation, and contains in it all things necessary to it. The Fathers a S. Bas. l. de vera & pia fide. Manifesta defectio fidei est importare quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt. S. Hilar. l. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem tantum secundum ea, quae scripta sunt desiderantem, & hoc qui repudiat, Antichristus est, & qui simulat Anathema est. S. Aug. lib. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9 In iis quae apertè in Scripturaê posita sunt, inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque vivendi. And to this place, Bellarm. l. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto, c. 11. saith, That S. Augustine speaks de illis dogmatibus quae necessaria sunt omnibus simpliciter; of those points of Faith which are necessary simply for all men. So far then he grants the Question. And that you may know it fell not from him on the sudden, he had said as much before in the beginning of the same Chapter, and here he confirms it again. are plain; the a Scotus. Proleg. in Sent. q. 2. Scriptura sufficienter continet Doctrinam necessatiam viatori. Thom. 2. 2. q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrina Christi & Apostolorum veritas fidei est sufficienter explicata: & loquitur ibi de verbo scripto V. & N. Testamenti. Schoolmen not strangers in it. And have not we reason then to account it as it is, The Foundation of our Faith? And b Scripturam Fundamentum esse & Columnam fidei fatemur in suo genere, i. in genere testimoniorum, & in materia credendorum. Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine. Stapleton himself, though an angry Opposite, confesses, That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith, that is in the nature of Testimony, and in the matter or thing to be believed. And if the Scripture be the Foundation to which we are to go for Witness, if there be doubt about the Faith, and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed, as necessary in the Faith; we never did nor never will refute any Tradition that is Universal and Apostolic, for the better exposition of the Scripture; nor any definition of the Church, in which she goes to the Scripture for what she teaches, and thrusts nothing as fundamental in the Faith upon the world, but in what the Scripture is Materia Credendorum, the substance of that which is to be believed, whether immediately and expressly in words, or more remotely, till a clear and full deduction draw it out. F. I asked, How he knew Scripture to be Scripture; and in particular, Genesis, Exodus, etc. These are believed to be Scripture, yet not proved out of any place of Scripture. The B. said, That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be supposed, and needed not to be proved. B. I did never love too curious a search into that which might put a man into a Wheel, and circled him so long between proving Scripture by Tradition, and Tradition by Scripture, till the Devil find a means to dispute him into Infidelity, and make him believe neither. I hope this is no part of your meaning: yet I doubt, this Question, How do you know Scripture to be Scripture? hath done more harm, than you will be ever able to help by Tradition. But I must follow that way which you draw me. And because it is so much insisted upon by you, and is itself a matter of such consequence, I will sift it a little further. Many men labouring to settle this great Principle in Divinity, have used diverse means to prove it. All have not gone the same way, nor all the right way. You cannot be right, that resolve Faith of the Scriptures, being the Word of God, into only Tradition; for only and no other proof, are equal. To prove the Scripture therefore (so called by way of Excellence) to be the Word of God; first, some fly to the Testimony and Witness of the Church, and her Tradition, which constantly believes, and unanimously delivers it: secondly, some to the Light and the Testimony which the Scripture gives to itself, with other internal proofs which are observed in it, and to be found in no other Writing whatsoever: thirdly, some to the Testimony of the Holy Ghost, which clears up the Light that is in Scripture, and seals this Faith to the souls of men, that it is God's Word: fourthly, All that have not imbrutished themselves, and sunk below their Species and order of Nature, give even Natural Reason leave to come in, and make some proof, and give some approbation, upon the weighing and the consideration of other Arguments. 1. For the first: The Tradition of the Church taken and considered alone, it is so far from being the only, that it cannot be a sufficient proof to believe, by Divine Faith, That Scripture is the Word of God: for that which is a full and sufficient proof, is able of itself to settle the soul of man, concerning it. Now the Tradition of the Church is not able to do this: for it may be further asked, Why he should believe the Church's Tradition? And if it be answered, Because the Church is infallibly governed by the Holy Ghost, it may yet be demanded, How that may appear? And if this be demanded, either you must say, you have it by special Revelation, which is the private Spirit, you object to other men; or else you must attempt to prove it by Scripture, as all of you do. And that very offer is sufficient acknowledgement, that the Scripture is a higher proof than the Church's Tradition; which in your own grounds, is or may be questionable, till you come thither. Again, if the Voice of the Church (saying, The Books of Scripture, commonly received, are the Word of God) be the formal Object of Faith, upon which alone, and absolutely and last, I may resolve myself; then every man not only may, but aught, to resolve his Faith into the Voice or Tradition of the Church: for every man is bound to rest upon the proper and formal Object of the Faith. But nothing can be more evident than this, That a man ought not to resolve his Faith of this Principle into the Testimony of the Church: therefore neither is that Testimony, or Tradition, the formal Object of Faith. The a Vox Ecclesiae non est formale obiectum fidei. Stapl. Relect. Contr. 4. q. 3. A. 2. Licet in Articulo Fidei (Credo Ecclesiam) fortè contineatur hoc totum, Credo ea quae docet Ecclesia, tamen non intelligitur necessariò, quod Credo docenti 〈◊〉 tanquam testi infallibili. Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reijcit 〈◊〉 Durandi & Gabr. Et walden's. lib. 2. Doctr. Fid. Art. 2. c. 21. Testimonium Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectum Fidei Christianae, & Legislatio Scripturae Canonicae, subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut 〈◊〉 judici, & Testimonium veritati, etc. Canus, Loc. lib. 2. c. 8. Nec si Ecclesia aditum nobis praebet ad huiusmodi 〈◊〉 sacros cogn oscendos, protinus ibi acquiescendum est, sed ultra oportet progredi, & solida Dei veritate niti, etc. Et Scolus, in 3. Dist. 23. q. 1. Learned of your own part grant this: Although in the Article of the Creed (I believe the Catholic Church) peradventure all this be contained (I believe those things which the Church teacheth) yet this is not necessarily understood, That I believe the Church, teaching as an infallible Witness. And if they did not confess this, it were no hard thing to prove. It seems to me very necessary, that we be able to prove the Books of Scripture to be the Word of God, by some Authority that is absolutely Divine: for if they be warranted unto us by any Authority less than Divine, than all things contained in them (which have no greater assurance than the Scripture, in which they are read) are not Objects of Divine Belief. And that once granted, will enforce us to yield, That all the Articles of Christian Belief have no greater assurance, than Humane or Moral Faith or Credulity can afford. An Authority then simply Divine, must make good Scripture's Infallibility. This Authority cannot be any Testimony orVoice of the present Church: for our a Hook. l. 3. §. 9 Worthies prove, That all the Church's Constitutions are of the nature of humane Law: b Stapl. Relect. Contr. 4. q. 3. A. 1. & 2. And some among you, not unworthy for their Learning, prove it at large, That all the Church's Testimony, or Voice, or Sentence, (call it what you will) is but suo modo, or aliquo modo, not simply, but in a manner Divine. Now that which is Divine but in a manner, be it the Church's manner, is suo modo non Divina, in a sort not Divine. But this great Principle of Faith (the ground and proof of whatsoever else is of Faith) cannot stand firm upon a proof that is, and is not, in a manner, and not in a manner, Divine; as it must, if we have no other Anchor than the external Tradition of the Church. 2. For the second: That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently known, as by Divine and infallible Testimony, Lumine proprio, by the resplendency of that Light which it hath in it self only, and by the witness that it can so give itself; I could never yet see cause to allow. c Hook. l. 2. §. 4. For as there is no place in Scripture that tells us, such Books, containing such and such particulars, are the Canon and the infallible Will and Word of God; so if there were any such place, that were no sufficient proof: for a man might justly ask another Book, to bear witness of that; and again of that, another; and where ever it were written in Scripture, that must be a part of the whole. And no created thing can alone give witness to itself, and make it evident; nor one part testify for another, and satisfy, where Reason will but offer to contest. Besides, if it were so clear by 〈◊〉 and in given Light, What should hinder, but that all which hear it, and do but understand the Terms, should presently assent unto it, as men use to do to Principles evident in themselves? which daily experience teacheth us, they do not. And this, though I cannot approve, yet me thinks you may, and upon probable grounds at least. For I hope no Romanist will deny, but that there is as much Light in Scripture, to manifest and make ostension of itself to be infallibly the written Word of God, as there is in any Tradition of the Church, that it is Divine, and infallibly the unwritten Word of God. And the Scriptures saying from the mouths of the Prophets, a Isai. 44. & passim. Thus saith the Lord, and from the mouths of the b Act. 28.25. Apostles, That the Holy Ghost spoke by them, are at least as able and as fit to bear witness to their own Verity, as the Church is to bear witness to her own Traditions, by bare saying they come from the Apostles: And yourselves would never go to the Scripture, to prove that there are Traditions, c 2. Thess. 2. 15. jud. vers. 3. as you do, if you did not think the Scripture as easy to be discovered by inbred Light in itself, as Traditions by their Light. And if this be so, than it is as probable at the least (which some of ours affirm) That Scripture may be known to be the Word of God by the Light and Lustre which it hath in itself, as it is (which d In your Articles delivered to D. W. to be answered. you affirm) That a Tradition may be known to be such, by the Light which it hath in itself. If this Argument were in jest, this were an excellent Proposition to make sport withal. 3. For the third: Either some think, that there is no sufficient warrant for this, unless they fetch it from the Testimony of the Holy Ghost, and so look in vain after special Revelations, and make themselves by thisvery conceit obnoxious, and easy to be led by all the whisperings of a seducing private Spirit; or else you would fain have them think so: For your side, both upon this and other occasions, do often challenge, that we resolve all our Faith into the Dictates of a private Spirit; from which we shall ever prove ourselves as free, if not freer than you. To the Question in hand then: Suppose it agreed upon, that there must be e Vt testimonia Scripturae certam & indubitatam fidem praestent, necessarium videtur oftendere, quod ipsae divinae Scripturae sint Dei Spiritu inspiratae. Orig. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a Divine Faith, Cui subesse non potest falsum, under which can rest no possible error, That the Books of Scripture are the written Word of God: If they which go to the Testimony of the Holy Ghost for proof of this, do mean by Faith, Obiectum Fidei, The Object of Faith, that is to be believed; then no question they are out of the ordinary way: for God never sent us, by any word or warrant of his, to look for any such special and private Testimony, to prove which that Book is that we must believe. But if by Faith, they mean the Habit or Act of Divine infused Faith, by which virtue they do believe the Credible Object, and thing to be believed; then their speech is true, and confessed by all Divines of all sorts. For Faith is the f 1. Cor. 12.3, 4. S. Aug. in Psal. 87. gift of God, of God alone, and an infased Habit, in respect whereof, the Soul is merely recipient: And therefore the sole Infuser, the Holy Ghost, must not be excluded from that work, which none can do but he. For the Holy Ghost, as he first dictated the Scripture to the Apostles a Nec eum Ecclesiae testimonium aut 〈◊〉 praed. 〈◊〉 Dei Spiritum, vel ab 〈◊〉 docente, vel à 〈◊〉 bis audientious excludimus, sed utro. iq disertè in ludimus, etc. 〈◊〉. Tripped. 〈◊〉. Whitak. c. 3. , so did he not leave the Church in general, nor the true members of it in particular, without grace to believe what himself had revealed, and made credible. So that Faith, as it is taken for the virtue of Faith, whether it be of this or any other Article, b Fides quae caepit ab Ecclesiae Testimonio 〈◊〉 proponit & 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 in Deo intus 〈◊〉, & intus 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Stapl. 〈◊〉. Contr. 4. q 3. a. 2. When grave and learned men do sometimes hold, that of this Principle there is no proof, but by the Testimony of the Spirit, etc. I think it is not their meaning, to exclude all outward 〈◊〉, etc. but rather this, That all other means are uneffectuall of 〈◊〉 to work Faith, without the special grace of God, etc. Hock. lib. 3. §. 8. though it receive a kind of preparation, or occasion of beginning, from the Testimony of the Church, as it proposes and induceth to the Faith, yet it ends in God, revealing within, and teaching within, that which the Church preached without. For till the Spirit of God move the heart of man, he cannot believe, be the Object never so eredible. The speech is true then, but c De habitu Fidei quoad fieri 〈◊〉 & generationem quum à Deo immediatè solo Dono gratuito infusus est, 〈◊〉 ad quaestionem, nisi quoad hoc quod per 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉, etc. Henr. a 〈◊〉. Sum. a. 10. q. 1. D. quite out of the state of this Question, which inquires only after a sufficient means to make this Object credible, and fit to be believed, against all impeachment of follic and temereity in belief, whether men do actually believe it, or not. For which, no man may expect inward private revelation, without the external means of the Church, unless perhaps the d Stapl. Rel. Cont. 4. q. 3. a. 2. doth not only affirm it, but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too, à paritate 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, case of necessity, where there is no contempt of the external means. case of necessity be excepted, when a man lives in such a Time, and Place, as excludes him from all ordinary means, in which, I dare not offer to shut up God from the souls of men, nor to tie him to those ordinary ways, and means, to which yet in great wisdom and providence he hath tied and bound all mankind. Private Revelation than hath nothing ordinarily to do, to make the Object credible in this, That Scripture is the Word of God, or in any other Article. For the Question is of such outward and evident means, as other men may take notice of, as well as ourselves. By which, if there arise any doubting, or infirmity in the Faith, others may strengthen us, or we afford means to support them: whereas the e Quid cum singulis agitur Deus, scit qui agit, & ipsi cum quibus 〈◊〉 sciunt. Quid autem agatur cum genere humano, per historiam commendari voluit, & per 〈◊〉. S. Aug. L. de Vera Relig. c. 25. Testimony of the Spirit, and all private Revelation, is within, nor felt nor seen of any, but him that hath it; so that hence can be drawn no proof to others. Miracles are not sufficient alone to prove it, 〈◊〉 both they and the Revelation too, agree with the Rule of Scripture, which is now an unalterable Rule by f Gal. 1. 8. Man, or Angel. 4. The last, which gives Reason leave to come in, and prove what it can, may not justly be denied by any reasonable man. For though Reason, without Grace, cannot see the way to Heaven, nor believe this Book, in which God hath written the way; yet Grace is never placed but in a reasonable creature, and proves by the very seat which it hath taken up, that the end it hath, is to be spiritual eye-water, to make Reason see what by a Animalis homo non percipit. 1. Cor. 2. 14. Nature only it cannot, but never to blemish Reason in that which it can comprehend. Now the use of Reason is very general; and man, do what he can, is still apt to search and seek for a Reason why he will believe, though after he once believes, his Faith grows stronger than either his Reason or his Knowledge: and great reason for this, because it goes higher than either of the other can in this life. In this particular, the Books called the Scripture, are commonly and constantly reputed to be the Word of God, and so infallible Verity to the least Point of them. Doth any man doubt this? The World cannot keep him from going to weigh it at the Balance of Reason, whether it be the Word of God, or not. To the same Weights, he brings the Tradition of the Church, the inward motives in Scripture itself, all Testimonies within, which seem to bear witness to it; and in all this, there's no harm: the danger is, when a man will use no other Scale but Reason; for the Word of God, and the Book containing it, refuse not to be weighed by b Si 〈◊〉 Rationi & veritat. 〈◊〉 videntur, in precio habete, etc. de Mysterijs Religionis 〈◊〉. Martyr. Apol. 2. 〈◊〉 si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rationis, etc. Tertull. li de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, c. 18. Rationabile est 〈◊〉 Deum esse Autorem Scripturae. Henr. a Gand. Sum. q 9 q. 3. Reason: But the Scale is not large enough to contain, nor the Weights to measure out the true virtue and 〈◊〉 force of either. Reason then can give no supernatural ground, into which a man may resolve his Faith, That Scripture is the Word of God infallibly; yet Reason can go so high, as it can prove that Christian Religion, which rests upon the Authority of this Book, stands upon surer grounds of Nature, Reason, common Equity, and justice, than any thing in the World, which any Infidel, or mere Naturalist, hath done, doth, or can adhere unto, against it, in that which he makes, accounts, or assumes, as Religion to himself. The ancient Fathers relied upon the Scriptures, no Christians more; and having to do with Philosophers (men very well seen in all the subtleties which natural Reason could teach, or learn) they were often put to it, and did as often make it good, That they had sufficient warrant to rely as much as they did upon Scripture. In all which Disputes, because they were to deal with Infidels, they did labour to make good the Authority of the Book of God by such arguments, as unbelievers themselves could not but think reasonable, if they 〈◊〉 them with indifferency. c Hook. lib 3. §. 8. Si Plato ipse 〈◊〉, & me 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉, etc. S. Aug. de vera 〈◊〉. c. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ratio potest progredi à 〈◊〉 ad invisibilia, etc. Ibid. c. 29. And it is not altogether impossible to prove it, even by Reason, a Truth infallible, or else to make them deny some apparent Principle of their own. For example: It is an apparent Principle, and with them, That God, or the absolute prime Agent, cannot be forced out of any possession: for if he could be forced by another greater, he were neither Prince, nor Absolute, nor a Si vim spectes, Deus valentissimus est. Aristot. de Mundo, c. 7. Don. ini & moderatores omnium. Cic. 2. de Leg. God, in their own Theology. Now they must grant, That that God, and Christ, which the Scripture teaches, and we believe, is the only true God, and no other with him, and so deny the Deity which they worshipped, or else deny their own Principle about the Deity, That God cannot be commanded, and forced out of possession: b Ipse Saturnus, & 〈◊〉, & jupiter, & quicquid 〈◊〉 colitis, victi dolore quod sunt 〈◊〉. Nec utique in turpitudinem sui nonnullis praesertim vestrorum assistentib' meant untur. Ipsis testib' esse eos Daemones de se verum confitentib' credit. 〈◊〉 enim per 〈◊〉 verum & solum inviti etc. Arnob. 8. contra Gent. For their Gods, Saturn, and Serapis, and jupiter himself, have been adjured by the name of the true and only God, and have been forced out of the bodies they possessed, and confessed themselves to be foul and seducing Devils. And their confession was to be supposed true, in point of Reason: for they that were adored as Gods, would never belie themselves into Devils, to their own reproach, especially in the presence of them that worshipped them, were they not forced. This, many of the unbelievers saw; therefore they could not (in very force of Reason) but they must either deny their God, or deny their Principle in Nature. Their long Custom would not forsake their God, and their Reason could not forget their Principle. If Reason therefore might judge among them, they could not worship any thing that was under command. And if it be reasonable to do and believe this, then why not reasonable also to believe that the Scripture is his Word, given to teach himself and Christ, since there they find Christ c S. Matth. 12.22. doing that, and d S. Matth. 16.17. giving power to do it after, which themselves saw executed upon their Devillgods? Besides, whereas all other written Laws have scarce had the honour to be duly observed, or constantly allowed worthy approbation in the particular places where they have been established for Laws; this Law of Christ, and this Canon of Scripture, the container of it, is or hath been received in almost e Si Libri quoquo modo se habent, sancti tamen Divinarum rerum pleni propè totius generis humani confessione diffamantur, etc. S. Aug. de Vtil. Cred. c. 7. Scriptura summa dispositione providentiae super omnes omnium gentium literas, omnia sibi genera ingeniorum humanorum Divina Excellens authoritate subiecit. S. Aug. 11. de Civit. Dei, c. 1. At in omni Orbe terrarum in omni Graecia & universis Nationibus, innumeri sunt, & immensi qui relictis Patrijs, Legibus, etc. ad obseruantiam Mosis & Christi, etc. Origen. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, cap. 1. all Nations under Heaven: And wheresoever it hath been received, it hath been both approved for unchangeable Good, and believed for infallible Verity. This persuasion could not have been wrought in men of all sorts, but by working upon their Reason, unless we shall think all the World unreasonable, that received it. And certainly, God did not give this admirable faculty of Reasoning to the Soul of man, for any cause more prime than this, to discover, or at least to judge and allow of the way to himself, when and howsoever it should be discovered. One great thing that troubled Rational men, was that which stumbled the Manichee (an Heresy it was, but more than half Pagan) namely, That somewhat must be believed, before much could be known. Wise men use not to believe, but what they know: And the Manichee a Irridere in Catholicae fidei disciplina, quod iuberétur homines credere non autem, etc. S. Aug. 1. 〈◊〉. c. 14. scorned the Orthodox Christian, as light of belief, promising to lead no Disciple after him, but upon evident knowledge. This stumbles many; but yet the Principle, That somewhat must be believed, before much can be known, stands firm in Reason still: For if in all Sciences there be some Principles which cannot be proved; if Reason be able to see this, and confess it, if almost all Artists have granted it, Who can justly deny that to Divinity, A Science of the highest Object, God himself; which he easily and reasonably grants to inferior Sciences, which are more within his 〈◊〉 And as all Sciences suppose some Principles, without proving; so have they almost all, some Text, some Authority, upon which they rely in some measure: and it is Reason they should. For though these make not their Texts infallible, as Divinity doth; yet full consent, and prudent examination, and long continuance, have won reputation to them, and settled reputation upon them, very deservedly. For were these Texts more void of Truth than they are, yet it were fit to uphold their credit, that Novices and young beginners in a Science, which are not yet able to work strongly upon Reason, nor Reason upon them, may have Authority to believe, till they can learn to conclude from Principles, and so to know. Is this also reasonable in other Sciences, and shall it not be so in Theology, to have a Text, a Scripture, a Rule, which Novices may be taught first to believe, that so they may after come to the knowledge of those things, which out of this rich Principle and b And therefore S. Aug. 2. de Doctr. Christ. c. 8. would have men make themselues persect in reading the letter of the Scripture, 〈◊〉 before they understood it. Eas notas habeat, etsi nondum intellectu, tamé 〈◊〉 duntaxat; No question, but to make them ready, against they understood it. Treasure are deduceable? I yet see not, how right Reason can deny these grounds; and if it cannot, than a mere natural man may be thus far convinced, That the Text of God is a very credible Text. Well, these are the four, by most of which, men offer to prove the Scripture to be the Word of God, as by a Divine and infallible warrant; and it seems no one of these doth it. The Tradition of the present Church is too weak, because that is not absolutely Divine: The Light which is in Scripture itself, is not bright enough, it cannot bear sufficient witness to itself. The Testimony of the Holy Ghost, that is most infallible, but ordinarily it is not so much as considerable in this Question, which is not, how, or by what means we believe, but how the Scripture may be proposed as a credible Object, 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉. And for Reason, no man expects, that that should 〈◊〉 it; it doth service enough, if it enable us to disprove that which misguided men conceive against it. If none of these than be an absolute and sufficient means to prove it, either we must find out another, or see what can be more wrought out of these. For the Tradition of the Church then, certain it is, we must distinguish the Church, before we can judge right of the validity of the Tradition. For if the speech be of the Prime Christian Church, the Apostles, Disciples, and such as had immediate Revelation from Heaven; no question, but the Voice and Tradition of this Church is Divine, not aliquo modo, in a sort, but simply; and the Word of God from them, is of like validity, written or delivered. And against this Tradition (of which kind this, That the Books of Scripture are the Word of God, is the most general and uniform) the Church of England never excepted. And then here's the Voice of God, of which no Christian may doubt, to confirm his Word. For the Apostles had their Authority from Christ, and they proved that they had it by apparent Miracles, which were beyond exception. And when S. Augustine a L. 1. contr. Epis. Fund. c. 5. Ego vero non crederem Euangelio, nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret autoritas. said, I would not believe the Gospel, unless the Authority of the Catholic Church moved me (whichplace you urged at the Conference, though you are now content to slide by it) some of your ownewill not endure, should be understood, save b 〈◊〉, Dial. p. 1. l. 1. c. 4. 〈◊〉 solum de Ecclesia quae fuit tempore Apostolorum. of the Church in the time of the Apostles only; and c Biel, Lect. 22. in C. Missae. A tempore Christi & Apostolorum, etc. And so doth S. Aug. take, Eccles cont. Fund. some, of the Church in general, not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but sure to include Christ and his Apostles, the 〈◊〉 is there. But this will not serve your turn. The Tradition of the present Church must be as infallible as that of the Primitive. But the contrary to this is proved before, because this Voice of the present Church is not simply Divine. To what end then serves any Tradition of the present Church? To what? Why to a very good end. For 〈◊〉 it serves by a full consent to work upon the minds of unbelievers; to move them to read and to consider, the Scripture (which they hear by so many wise, learned, and 〈◊〉 men) as of no meaner esteem than the 〈◊〉 of God. It 〈◊〉 among Novices, Weaklings, and Doubters in the Faith, to instruct and confirm them, till they may acquaint themselves with, and understand the Scripture, which the Church delivers as the Word of God. And thus again some of your own understand the fore cited place of S. Augustine, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Gospel, etc. d Sive Infideles, sive in fide Novitij. Can. loc. lib. 2. cap. 8. 〈◊〉 omnino nescienti Scripturam. Stap. Relect. cont. 4. q. 1. A. 3. For he speaks it either of 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉 in the Faith, or else of such as were in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. You (as the B. tells me) at the Conference (though you 〈◊〉 it here) would needs have it, that S. Augustine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Faithful, which I cannot yet think: For he speaks to the 〈◊〉, and they had a great part of the 〈◊〉 in them. And the words immediately before those, are, If thou shouldst find one, Qui Euangelio nondum credit, which did not yet believe the Gospel, what wouldst thou do to make him believe? a Et ibid. Quibus obtemperavi dicentibus Credite Euangelio. Therefore he speaks of himself when he did not believe. Ego vero non, Truly I would not, etc. So to these two ends it serves, and there need be no question between us. But then every thing that is the first Inducer to believe, is not by and by either the principal Motive, or the chief and last Object of Belief, upon which a man may rest his Faith. The first knowledge that helps to open a man's understanding, and prepares him to be able to demonstrate a truth, and make it evident, is his Grammar: but when he hath made a Demonstration, he resolves the knowledge of his Conclusion, not into his Grammar Rules, but into the immediate Principles out of which it is deduced. So in this particular, a man is probably led by the Authority of the present Church, as by the first informing, inducing, persuading means, to believe the Scripture to be the Wordof God: but when he hath studied, considered, and compared this Word with itself, and with other Writings, with the help of ordinary Grace, and a mind morally induced, and reasonably persuaded by the voice of the Church; the Scripture than gives greater and higher reasons of credibility to itself, than Tradition alone could give. And then he that believes, resolves his last and full assent, That Scripture is Divine Authority, into internal Arguments, found in the Letter of itself, though found by the help and direction of Tradition without, and Grace within. And the Resolution that is rightly grounded, may not endure to pitch and rest itself upon the helps, but upon that Divine Light, which the Scripture no question hath in itself, but is not kindled, till these helps come: Thy Word is a Light b Psal. 119.105. Sanctarum Scripturarum Lumen. S. Aug. L. de Vera Relig. c. 7. Quid Lucem Scripturarum vanis umbris? etc. S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccl. Cathol. c. 35. ; so David. A Light? therefore it is as much, manifestatiwm sui as alterius, a manifestation to itself, as to other things which it shows: but still, not till the Candle be lighted; not till there hath been a preparing instruction, what Light it is. Children call the Sun and Moon, Candles; Gods Candles: They see the Light as well as men, but cannot distinguish between them, till some Tradition, and Education, hath informed their Reason. And c 1. Cor. 2.14. animalis homo, the natural man sees some Light of Moral counsel and instruction in Scripture, as well as Believers; but he takes all that glorious Lustre for Candlelight, and cannot distinguish between the Sun, and twelve to the pound, till Tradition of the Church, and Gods Grace put to it, have cleared his understanding. So Tradition of the present Church, is the first motive to Belief: but the Belief itself, That the Scripture is the Word of God, rests d Orig. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, c. 1. went this way, yet was he a great deal nearer the prime Tradition, than we are: for being to prove, that the Scriptures were inspired from God, be saith, De hoc assignabimus ex ipsis divinis Scriptures, quae nos competenter moverint, etc. upon the Scripture, when a man finds it to answer and exceed all that which the Church gave in Testimony. And as in the voice of the Primitive and Apostolical Church there was a Principaliter tamen (etiam & hic) credimus propter Deum non Apostolos, etc. 〈◊〉. à Gand. Sum. A. 9 q. 3. Now, if where the Apostles themselves spoke, ultimata resolutio fidei, was in Deum, not in ipsos per 〈◊〉, much more shall it be in 〈◊〉, than in praesentem Ecclesiam; and into the writings of the Apostles, than into the words of their Successors, made up into a Tradition. simply Divine Authority, delivering the Scripture as God's Word; so, after Tradition of the present Church hath taught and informed the Soul, the voice of God is plainly heard in Scripture itself. And then here's double Authority, and both Divine, that confirms Scripture to be the Word of God, Tradition of the Apostles delivering it, and the internal worth and argument in the Scripture, obvious to a soul prepared by the present Church's Tradition, and God's grace. The Difficulties which are pretended against this, are not many, and they will easily vanish. 1. First, you pretend we go to private Revelations for Light, to know Scripture: No, we do not; you see it is excluded out of the very state of the Question: and we go to the Tradition of the present Church, and by it as well as you. Here we differ; we use this as the first Motive, not as the last Resolution of our Faith; we resolve only into b Calu. Instit. 1. c. 5. §. 2. Christiana Ecclesia Prophetarum, Scriptis, & Apostolorum praedicatione initio fundata fuit, ubicunque reperietur ea Doctrina, etc. prime Tradition Apostolical, and Scripture itself. 2. Secondly, you pretend we do not, nor cannot know the prime Apostolical Tradition, but by the Tradition of the present Church; and that therefore if the Tradition of the present Church be not Gods unwritten Word, and Divine, we cannot yet know Scripture to be Scripture, by a Divine Authority. First, suppose I could not know the prime Tradition to be Divine, but by the present, yet it doth not follow, that then I cannot know Scripture to be Scripture by a Divine Authority, because Divine Tradition is not the sole and only means to prove it. For suppose I had not, nor could have full assurance of Apostolical Tradition Divine, yet the moral persuasion, reason, and force of the present Church is ground enough to move any reasonable man, that it is fit he should read the Scripture, and esteem very reverently and highly of it. And this once done, the Scripture hath then In, and Home Arguments enough to put a soul, that hath but ordinary Grace, out of doubt, That Scripture is the Word of God, infallible and Divine. Secondly, Next, the present Tradition, though not absolutely Divine, yet by the help of Divine Arguments, internal to the Scripture, is able to prove the very prime Tradition: for so long as the present agrees both with the prime Tradition, and with the Scripture itself, delivered by it (as in this it is found and agreed upon, that it doth, and Hell itself is not able to belch out a good Argument against it) it is a sufficient testimony of the Scriptures Authority; not by or of itself, because not simply Divine, but by the prime Tradition and Scripture upon which it grounds, while it delivers. And both these are absolutely Divine. 3. Thirdly, you pretend, that we make the Scripture absolutely and fully to be known Lumine suo, by the Light and Testimony which it hath in, and gives to itself. Against this, you give reason and proof from ourselves. Your reason is, If there be sufficient Light in Scripture to show itself, than every man that can and doth but read it, may know it presently to be the Divine Word of God; which we see by daily experience, men neither do nor can. First, it is not absolutely, nor universally true, There is sufficient Light; therefore every man may see it. Blind men are men, and cannot see it; and a 1. Cor. 2.14. sensual men, in the Apostles judgement, are such: Nor may we deny and put out this Light, as insufficient, because blind Eyes cannot, and perverse Eyes will not see it, no more than we may deny meat to be sufficient for nourishment, though men that are heartsick, cannot eat it. Next, we do not say, That there is such a full Light in Scripture, as that every man upon the first sight must yield to it; such Light as is found in prime Principles, Every whole is greater than a part of the same, and this, The same thing cannot be, and not be, at the same time, and in the same respect. These carry a natural Light with them, and evident: for they are no sooner understood, than fully known, to the convincing of man's understanding, and so they are the beginning of knowledge; which, where it is perfect, dwells in full Light: but such a full Light we do neither say is, nor require to be in Scripture; and if any particular man do, let him answer for himself. The Question is, only of such a Light in Scripture, as is of force to breed Faith, that it is the Word of God; not to make a perfect Knowledge. Now Faith, of whatsoever it is, this or other Principle, it is an Evidence b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Heb. 11. 1. , as well as a Knowledge, and a c Henr. à Gand. sum. A. 10. q. 2. firmer and surer Evidence than any Knowledge can have, because it rests upon Divine Authority, which cannot deceive; whereas Knowledge, or at least he that thinks he knows, is not ever certain, in deductions from Principles. I say firmer Evidence, but not so clear: For it is of d Heb. 11.1. things not seen, in regard of the Object; and in regard of the Subject that sees, it is in e 1. Cor. 13.12. aenigmate, in a Glass, or dark speaking. Now God doth not require a full demonstrative Knowledge in us, that the Scripture is his Word, and therefore in his providence kindled in it no Light for that; but he requires our Faith of it, and such a certain Demonstration, as may fit that. And for that, he hath left sufficient Light in Scripture to Reason and Grace meeting, where the soul is morally prepared by the Tradition of the Church; unless you be of Bellarmine's opinion a Lib. 3 de Eccl. c. 14. Credere 〈◊〉 esse Divinas Scripturas non est omninò necessarium ad salutem. I will not break my discourse, to 〈◊〉 this speech of Bellarmine; it is bad enough in the best sense that favour itself can 〈◊〉 it. For if he 〈◊〉 by omninò, that it is not altogether, or simply necessary to believe there is Divine Scripture, and a written Word of God; that's false, that being granted which is among all Christians, That there is a Scripture: And God would 〈◊〉 have given a supernatural unnecessary thing. And if he means by omninò, that it is not in any wise necessary, than it is sensibly false: For the greatest upholders of Tradition that ever were, made the Scripture very necessary in all the 〈◊〉 of the Church. So it was necessary, because it was given; and given, because God thought it necessary. Besides, upon Roman Grounds (if I have skill enough to stand firm upon them) this I think will follow: That which the Tradition of the present Church delivers, as necessary to 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 omninò, necessary to salvation: But that there are Divine Scriptures, the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe: therefore, to believe there are Divine Scriptures, is omninò (be the 〈◊〉 of the word what it can) necessary to salvation. So Bellarmine is foul, and unable to stand upon his own ground. , That to believe there are any Divine Scriptures, is not omninò, necessary to salvation. The Authority which you pretend, is out of b Lib. 1. §. 14. Hooker: Of things necessary, the very chiefest is to know, what Books we are bound to esteem holy; which Point is confessed impossible for the Scripture itself to teach. Of this, c Protest. Apol. Tract. 1. §. 10. n. 3. Brierly (the Storehouse for all Priests that will be idle, and yet seem well read) tells us, That d Lib. 2. §. 4. Hooker gives a very sensible Demonstration: It is not the Word of God, which doth or possibly can assure us, that we do well to think it is his Word: for if any one Book of Scripture did give testimony to all, yet still that Scripture which giveth credit to the rest, would require another to give credit unto it. Nor could we ever come to any pause, to rest our assurance this way: so that unless, beside Scripture, there were something that might assure, etc. And e Lib. 2. §. 7. & lib. 3. § 8. this he acknowledgeth (saith Brierly) is the Authority of God's Church. Certainly, Hooker gives a true and a sensible Demonstration; but Brierly wants fidelity and integrity, in citing him: For in the first place, hooker's speech is, Scripture itself cannot teach this; nor can the Truth say, that Scripture itself can. It must needs ordinarily have Tradition, to prepare the mind of a man to receive it. And in the next, where he speaks so sensibly, That Scripture cannot bear witness to itself, nor one part of it to another; that is grounded upon Nature, which admits no created thing to be witness to itself; and is acknowledged by our Saviour, f S. joh. 5. 31. De seipso homine loquitur, nam aliter S. joh. 8.13. If I bear witness to myself, my witness is not true, i. not of force to be reasonably accepted for Truth. But than it is more than manifest, that Hooker delivers his Demonstration of Scripture alone. For if Scripture hath another proof to usher it, and lead it in, than no question it can both prove and approve itself. His words are, So that unless, besides Scripture, there be etc. Besides Scripture; therefore he excludes not Scripture, but calls for another proof to lead it in, namely, Tradition, which no man that hath brains about him, denies. In the two other places, Brierly falsifies shamefully: for folding up all that Hooker says, in these words, This (other means to assure us, besides Scripture) is the Authority of God's Church, he wrinkles that worthy Author desperately, and shrinks up his meaning. In the former place abused by Brierly, no man can set a better state of the question between Scripture and Tradition, than Hooker doth: a Lib. 2. §. 7. His words are these, The Scripture is the ground of our Belief; The Authority of man (that is the name he gives to Tradition) is the Key which opens the door of entrance into the knowledge of the Scripture. I ask now, when a man is 〈◊〉, and hath viewed a house, and by viewing, likes it, and upon liking, resolves unchangeably to dwell there; doth he set up his resolution upon the Key that let him in? No sure; but upon the goodness and commodiousness which he sees in the house. And this is all the difference (that I know) between us in this Point: In which, do you grant (as ye ought to do) that we resolve our Faith into Scripture, as the Ground, and we will never deny, that Tradition is the Key that lets us in. In the latter place, Hooker is as plain, as constant to himself, and Truth: b Lib. 3. §. 8. His words are, The first outward motive, leading men so to esteem of the Scripture, is the Authority of God's Church, etc. But afterwards, the more we bestow our labour in reading or learning the Mysteries thereof, the more we find, that the thing itself doth answer our received opinion concerning it: so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before, doth now much more prevail, when the very thing hath ministered further reason. Here then again, in his judgement, is Tradition the first inducement; but the farther Reason and Ground, is the Scripture: and resolution of Faith ever settles upon the farthest Reason it can, not upon the first inducement. So that the state of this Question is firm and plain enough, to him that will not shut his eyes. The last thing I shall trouble you with, is, That this method and manner of proving Scripture to be the Word of God, is the same which the ancient Church ever held, namely, Tradition, or Ecclesiastical Authority first, and then, internal Arguments from the Scripture itself. The first Church of Christ, the Apostles themselves, had their warrant from c Nec iis principaliter credendum 〈◊〉 propter authoritatem Christi, & Dei in Christo. Heur. 〈◊〉 Gand. sum. a. 9 q. 3. Christ; their Tradition was every way Divine, both in the thing they delivered, and in the manner of their witnessing it. But in aftertimes of the Church, men prove Scripture to be the Word of God by internal Arguments, as the chief thing upon which they resolve, though Tradition be the first that moves them to it. This way the Church went in S. Augustine's a Lib. 13. contr. Faust. c. 5. Probat per internum argumentum impletionem Prophetarum. Scriptura quae fidem svam rebus ipsis probat, quae per temporum successiones haec impleri, etc. Et Hen. à Gand. sum. a. 9 q. 3. citat S. Aug. L. de Vera Relig. in quo L. haec quatuor simul posita non leguntur, sed adimplent scopum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. time: He was no enemy to Church-Tradition; yet when he would prove, that the Author of the Scripture (and so of the whole knowledge of Divinity, as it is supernatural) is Deus in Christo, God in Christ, he takes this as the all-sufficient way, and gives four proofs, all internal to the Scripture: first, The Miracles; secondly, That there is nothing carnal in the Doctrine; thirdly, That there hath been such performance of it; fourthly, That by such a Doctrine of Humility, the whole World almost hath been converted. And whereas ad muniendam fidem, for the defending of the Faith, and keeping it entire, there are two things requisite, Scripture, and Church-Tradition; b Duplici modo munire fidem, etc. primò divinae Legis 〈◊〉, tum deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione, contr. Haer. cap. 1. Vincent. Lirinensis places Authority of Scriptures first, and then Tradition. And since it is apparent, that Tradition is first in order of Time, it must necessarily follow, that Scripture is first, in order of Nature; that is the chief, upon which Faith rests and resolves itself: And your own School confesses, this was the way ever. The woman of c S. joh. 4. Samaria is a known resemblance, but allowed by yourselves: For d Henr. à Gand. sum. a. 10. q. 1. Sic quotidie apud illos qui foris sunt intrat Christus per 〈◊〉, i. Ecclesiam & eredunt per istam famam etc. in Glos. in S. joh. cap. 4. quotidie, daily with them that are without, Christ enters by the Woman, that is, the Church, and they believe by that fame which she gives, etc. But when they come to hear Christ himself, they believe his words, before the words of the woman. For when they have once found Christ, e Jbid. Plus vebis Chrsti in Scriptura credit, quam Ecclesiae testificanti. Quia propter illam iam credit Ecclesiae, & si ipsa quidem 〈◊〉 Scripturae diceret, ipsi non crederet, etc. they do more believe his words in Scripture, than they do the Church which testifies of him, because than propterillam, for the Scripture they believe the Church: and if the Church should speak contrary to the Scripture, they would not believe it. Thus the School taught then, and thus the Gloss commented then. And when men have tired themselves, hither they must come. The Key that lets men in to the Scriptures, even to this knowledge of them, that they are the Word of God, is Tradition of the Church: but when they are in, f In sacra Scriptura ipse immediatè loquitur fidelib'. Ibid. they hear Christ himself immediately speaking in Scripture to the Faithful: g S. joh. 10.4. And his Sheep do not only hear, but know his voice. To conclude then, we have a double Divine Testimony, altogether infallible, to confirm unto us, that Scripture is the Word of God: The first, is the Tradition of the Church of the Apostles themselves, who delivered immediately to the World, the Word of Christ: the other, the Scripture itself; but after it hath received this Testimony. And into these, we do and may safely resolve our Faith. h Quod autem 〈◊〉 posterioribus circa quos non apparent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est, quae illi in Quae 〈◊〉 medios 〈◊〉 nullo fuisse 〈◊〉 ex consensione concordi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 succedentium usque ad tempora 〈◊〉. Henr. à Gand. 〈◊〉. A. 〈◊〉. q. 3. Et argumenta, quae 〈◊〉 ex antedicto 〈◊〉 S. Aug. 〈◊〉 Dei 〈◊〉, sufficientia debent esse indicia, non solum pro tempore Ecclesiae 〈◊〉, sed etiam pro 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae decursu usque in 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 de caetero non 〈◊〉, etc. 〈◊〉. & Calu. Lib. 1. Instit. cap. 5. §. 2. 〈◊〉 As for the Tradition of after ages, in and about whom Miracles and Divine power were not so evident, we believe them, because they do not preach other things than those former (the Apostles) left in scriptis certissimis, in most certain Scripture. And it appears by men in the middle ages, that these Writings were vitiated in nothing, by the concordant consent in them of all succeedors, to our own time. And now, by this time, it will be no hard thing to reconcile the Fathers, which seem to speak differently in no few places, both one from another, and the same from themselves, touching Scripture, and Tradition; and that as well in this Point, to prove Scripture to be the Word of God, as for concordant exposition of Scripture in all things else. When therefore the Fathers say, a Scripturas habemus ex Traditione. S. Cyril. Hier. Catech. 4. Multa quae non inveniuntur in Literis Apostolorum etc. non nisi ab illis tradita & commendata creduntur. S. Aug. 2. 〈◊〉 Baptis. contr. Donat. c. 7. We have the Scripture by Tradition, or the like, either they mean the Tradition of the Apostles themselves delivering it; and there, when it is known, we may resolve our Faith: or if they speak of the present Church, than they mean, that the Tradition of it is that by which we first receive the Scripture, as by an according means to the prime Tradition: But because it is not simply Divine, we resolve not our Faith into it, nor settle our Faith upon it, till it resolve itself into the prime Tradition of the Apostles, or the Scripture, or both, and there we rest with it. And you cannot show an ordinary consent of Fathers: nay, Can you, or any of your Quarter, show me any one Father of the Church, Greek or Latin, that ever said, We are to resolve our Faith, that Scripture is the Word of God, into the Tradition of the present Church? And again, when they say we are to rely upon Scripture b Non aliunde Scientia Coelestium. S. Hilar. lib. 4. de Trin. Simo Angelus de Coelo annunciauerit praeterquam quod in Scriptures, etc. S. Aug. l. 3. contr. 〈◊〉. c. 6. only, they are never to be understood with exclusion of Tradition, in what causes soever it may be had, c Quum sit perfectus Scripturarum Canon sibique ad omnia satis 〈◊〉 sufficiat, etc. Vinc. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 2. And if it be sibi ad omnia, then to this, To prove itself, at least aster Tradition hath prepared us to receive it. Not but that the Scripture is abundantly sufficient to itself for all things, but because it is deep, and may be drawn into different senses. I have said thus much upon this great occasion, because this Argument is so much pressed, without due respect to Scripture, I will not say, to the weakening our belief of it. Now out of this, I will weigh the B. his Answer, and your Exception taken against it. F. The B. said, That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be supposed, and needed not to be proved. B. Why, but did the B. say, That this Principle (The Books of Scripture are the Word of God) is to be supposed, as needing no proof at all to a natural man? or to a man newly entering upon the Faith? yea, or perhaps to a doubter, or weakling in the Faith? Can you think the B. so weak? It seems you do. But sure he knows, that there is a great deal of difference between Ethnics that deny and deride the Scripture, and men that are borne in the Church: The first have a farther way about, to this Principle; the other, in their very Christian education suck in this Principle, and are taught so soon as they are apt to learn it, That the Books commonly called the Bible, or Scripture, are the Word of God a Dixi sicut ei congruebat ad qué Scribebam, etc. S. Aug. 1. Retrac. c. 13. . The B. dealt with you as with a Christian, though in Error while you call Catholic. The words before spoken by the B. were, That the Scripture only, not any unwritten Tradition, was the Foundation of Faith. The Question between us and you is, Whether the Scripture do contain all such necessary things of Faith? Now in this Question, as in all Nature and Art, the Subject, the Scripture is and must be supposed; the Quaere between the Roman Catholics and the Church of England being only of the Predicate, the thing uttered of it, namely, Whether it contain all Fundamentals of Faith, all necessaries for Salvation, within it? Now since the Question proposed, in very form of Art proves not, but supposes the subject, I think the B. gave a satisfying answer, That to you and him, and in this Question, Scripture was a supposed Principle, and needed no proof. And I must tell you, that in this Question of the Scriptures perfect continent, it is against all Art, yea and Equity too, in reasoning, to call for a proof of that here, which must go avoidable supposed in this Question. De subiecto enim quaeritur semper, non subiectum ipsum quam 〈◊〉 in propositione. And if any man will 〈◊〉 familiar with Impiety, to question it, it must be tried in a preceding Question and Dispute by itself. Yet here not you only, but b Lib 4. de verb. Dei, cap. 4. Bellarmine, and others, run quite out of the way, to snatch at advantage. F. Against this, I read what I had formerly written in my Reply against Mr john White: wherein I plainly showed, that this answer was not good, and that no other answer could be made, but by admitting some Word of God unwritten, to assure us of this Point. B. Indeed here you read out of a Book (which you called your own) a large discourse upon this Argument: but some body told me the B. untied the Knot of the Argument, and set you to your Book again. Besides, you do a great deal of wrong to Mr Hooker c Lib. 3. §. 8. and the B. that because they call it a supposed or presumed Principle among Christians, you should fall by and by into such a Metaphysical discourse as the B. tells me you did, to prove, That that which is praecognitum, foreknown in Science, must be of such Light, that it must be known of and by itself alone; and that the Scripture cannot be so known to be the Word of God. Well, I will not now enter into that discourse more than I have, how far the Beam, which is very glorious (especially in some parts of Scripture) gives Light to prove itself. You see neither Hooker, nor the B. nor the Church of England (for aught I know) leave the Scripture alone, to manifest itself by the Light which it hath in itself, but when the present Church hath prepared and led the way, like a preparing Morning-Light to Sunshine; and then indeed we settle not, but in that Light. Nor will I make needless enquiry, how far, or in what manner a praecognitum, or supposed Principle in any Science, may be proved in a higher, to which that is subordinate; or accepted in a Prime: nor how it may in Divinity, where prae as well as post cognita; things fore as after-knowne, are matters and under the manner of Faith, and not of Science strictly: nor whether a praecognitum, a presupposed Principle in Faith, which rests upon Divine Authority, must needs have as much and equal Light to Natural Reason, which prime Principles have in Nature, while thy rest upon Reason: Nor whether it may justly be denied to have sufficient Light, be cause not equal. Your own a 〈◊〉. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. 1. colligitur inde. School grants, That in us, which are the subjects both of Faith and Knowledge, and in regard of the Evidence given in unto us, there is less Light, less Evidence in the Principles of Faith, than in the Principles of Knowledge, upon which there can be no doubt. But I think the School will never grant, that the Principles of Faith (even this in question) have not sufficient evidence. And you ought not to do as you did, without any distinction, or any limitation, deny a Praecognitum, or prime Principle in the Faith, because it answers not in all things to the prime Principles in Science, in their Light and Evidence; a thing in itself directly against Reason. Well, though I do none of this, yet I must follow you a little; for I would fain make it appear as plainly as such a difficulty can, what wrong you do Truth and yourself in this case. When the Protestants therefore answer to this Argument (which, as I have showed, can properly have no place in the Question between us about Tradition) b Hook. l. 3. §. 8. they which grant this as a Praecognitum, and thing foreknown, as the B. did, were neither ignorant nor forgetful, That things presupposed, as already known in a Science, are of two sorts; Either they are plain and fully manifest intheir own Light, or they are proved and granted already, some former knowledge having made them evident. This Principle then, The Scriptures are the Oracles of God, we cannot say is clear and fully manifest to all men simply, and in selfe-Light. For as is formerly said, if it were so evident, than all that hear it, read it, and do but understand 〈◊〉 terms, could not but presently assent unto it, as they do to Principles evident in themselves, which hourly experience tells us is not so: Yet we say, after Tradition hath been our Introduction, the Soul that hath but ordinary Grace added to Reason, may discern Light sufficient to resolve our Faith, that the Sun is there. This Principle then being not absolutely and simply evident in itself, is presumed to be taught us otherwise; and if otherwise, than it must be taught in and by some superior Science, to which Theology is subordinate. Now men may be apt to think out of reverence, That Divinity can have no Science above it; but your own School teacheth me that it hath. a Hoc modo sacra Doctrina est Scientia, quia procedit ex principijs notis lumine superioris Scientiae, quae scilicet est Scientia Dei & Beatorum. Th. p. 1. q. 1. a. 2. The sacred Doctrine of Divinity in this sort is a Science, because it proceeds out of Principles that are known by the Light of a superior Knowledge, which is the Knowledge of God and the blessed in Heaven. In this superior Science, this Principle, The Scriptures are the Oracles of God, is more than evident in full Light. This superior Science delivers this Principle in full revealed Light to the Prophets and Apostles: b Non creditur Deus esse Author huius 〈◊〉, quia homines hoc testati sunt in quantum homines nudo Testimonio humano, sed in quantum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divina, & ita Deus iis & sibi ipsi in eyes Testimonium perhibuit. Hen. à Gand. sum. A. 9 q. 3. The infallible Light of this Principle made their Authority Divine; by the same Divine Authority they wrote, and delivered the Scripture to the Church. Therefore from them immediately the Church received the Scripture, and that uncorrupt: And since no sufficient reason hath or can be given, that in any substantial thing it hath been corrupted, it remains firm to us at this day, proved in the most supreme Science; and therefore now to be supposed (at least by all Christians) That the Scripture is the Word of God. And therefore the B. his answer is good even in strictness, That this Principle is to be supposed. Besides, the jews never had nor can have any other proof, that the Old Testament is the Word of God, than we have of the New: For theirs was delivered by Moses, and the Prophets; and ours was delivered by the Apostles, which were Prophets too. The jews did believe their Scripture by a Divine Authority; for so the jews argue themselves: c S. joh. 9.29. We know that God spaeke with Moses; d Maldon. in S. joh. 9 Itaque non magis errare posse eum sequentes, quam si Deum ipsum sequerentur. And that therefore they could no more err in following Moses, than they could in following God himself. Now, how did the jews know that God spoke to Moses? How? Why apparently, the same way that is before set down: first, by Tradition. So S. Chrysostome: e Hom. 57 in S. joh. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. We know: Why, by whose witness, do you know? By the Testimony of oùr Ancestors. But he speaks not of their immediate Ancestors, but their Prime, which were Prophets, and whose Testimony was Divine; into which (namely, their Writings) the jews did resolve their Faith. And even that Scripture of the Old Testament was a a 2. Pet. 1.19. Light, and a shining Light too: and therefore could not but be sufficient, when Tradition had gone before. And therefore, though the jews entered this way to their belief of the Scripture, yet they do not say, b S. Chrys. ubi supra. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Audivimus, We have heard that God spoke to Moses, but, We know it. So they resolved their Faith higher, and into a more inward Principle, than an Ear to their immediate Ancestors, and their Tradition. F. And that no other answer could be made, but by admitting some Word of God unwritten, to assure us of this Point. B. I think I have showed, that the B. his answer is good, and that so no other answer need be made. If there were need, I make no question but another answer might be made, to assure us of this Point, though we did not admit of any Word of God unwritten. I say, to assure us; and you express no more. If you had said, to assure us by Divine Faith, your Argument had been the stronger. But if you speak of assurance only in the general, I must then tell you (and it is the great advantage which the Church of Christ hath against Infidels) a man may be assured, nay infallibly assured by Ecclesiastical and humane proof. Men that never saw Rome, may be sure, and infallibly believe, that such a City there is, by Historical and acquired Faith. And if consent of humane story can assure me this, Why should not consent of church-story assure me the other, That Christ and his Apostles delivered this Body of Scripture as the Oracles of God? For jews, enemies to Christ, they bear witness to the Old Testament; and Christians, through almost all Nations c Tanta hominum & temporum consensione firmatum. S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccl. Cath. c. 29. Ij Libri quoquo modo se habent, sancti tamen Diuinarum rerum pleni propè totius generis humani 〈◊〉 diffamantur, etc. S. Aug. de vtil. Cred. c. 7. & lib. 13. cont. Faust. c. 15. , give in evidence to both Old and New. And no Pagan, or other enemies of Christianity, can give such a worthy and consenting Testimony for any Authority upon which they rely, or almost for any Principle which they have, as the Scripture hath gained to itself. And as is the Testimony which it receives, above d Super omnes omnium gentium Literas. S. Aug. 11. de Civit. Dei, c. 1. all Writings of all Nations; so here is assurance in a great measure, without any Divine Authority, in a word written or unwritten. A great assurance, and it is infallible too; only then we must distinguish infallibility. For first, a thing may be presented as an infallible Object of Belief, when it is true, and remains so: For Truth, 〈◊〉 tale, as it is Truth, cannot deceive. Secondly, a thing is said to be infallible, when it is not only true, and remainesso actually, but when it is of such invariable constancy, and upon such ground, as that no degree of falsehood at any time, in any respect, can fall upon it. Certain it is, that by humane Authority, Consent, and Proof, a man may be assured infallibly, that the Scripture is the Word of God, by an acquired habit of Faith, Cui non 〈◊〉 falsum, under which nor error nor falsehood is: But he cannot be assured infallibly by Divine Faith, a Incertum esse non potest hos esse libros Canonicos Wald. Doct. fid. l. 2. a. 2. c. 20. Cui subesse non potest falsum, into which no falsehood can come, but by a Divine Testimony. This Testimony is absolute in the Scripture itself, delivered by the Apostles for the Word of God. That which makes way for this, as b Canus, Loc. l. 2. c. 8. Facit Ecclesiam causam sine qua non. an Introduction and outward motive, is the Tradition of the present Church; but that neither simply Divine, nor sufficient alone, into which we may resolve our Faith. And now to come close to the particular. The time was, before this miserable rent in the Church of Christ (which I think no true Christian can look upon, but with a bleeding heart) that you and we were all of one belief: That belief was tainted, in tract and corruption of time, very deeply. A division was made; yet so, that both parts held the Creed, and other common Principles of Belief: of these, this was one of the greatest, c Inter omnes penè constat, aut certe id quod satis est, inter me & illos cum quibus nunc agitur convenit hoc etc. Sic in alia causa cont. Manichaeos'. S. Aug. l. de Mor. Eccl. Cathol. cap. 4. That the Scripture is the Word of God; for our belief of all things contained in it, depends upon it. Since this division, there hath been nothing done by us to discredit this Principle: nay, we have given it all honour, and ascribed unto it more sufficiency, even to the containing of all things necessary to salvation, with d Vin. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 2. satis superque, enough, and more than enough; which yourselves have not done, do not. And for begetting and settling a belief of this Principle, we go the same way with you, and a better beside. The same way with you: because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first inducing motive to embrace this Principle; only we cannot go so far in this way as you, to make the present Tradition always an infallible Word of God: for this is to go so far in, till you be out of the way. For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church; it hath an end not only to receive us in, but another after to let us out into more open and richer ground. And a better way than you: Because after we are moved, and prepared, and induced by Tradition, we resolve our Faith into that written Word, and God delivering it, in which we find the Tradition which led us thither. And so we are sure by Divine Authority that we are in the way, because at the end we find the way proved. And do what can be done, you can never settle the Faith of man about this great Principle, till you rise to greater assurance than the present Church alone can give. And therefore once again to that known place of S. Augustine a Contr. Epist. Fund. c. 5. . The words of the Father are Nisi commoveret, Unless the Authority of the Church moved me: but not alone, but with other motives; else it were not commovere, to move together. And the other motives are Resoluers, though this be Leader. Now since we go the same way with you, so far as you go right, and a better way than you, where you go wrong; we need not admit any other Word of God, than we do. And this aught to remain as a presupposed Principle among all Christians, and not so much as come into this Question, about the sufficiency of Scripture between you and us. F. From this (the Person doubting) called us, and desiring to hear, Whether the B. would grant the Roman Church to be the Right Church? The B. granted, that it was. B. One occasion which moved Tertullian to write his Book de Praescrip. adversus Haereticos, was, That he b Pamel. in Summar. Lib. Videns disputationibus nihil aut parum profici. saw little or no profit come by Disputations. Sure the ground was the same then, and now. It was not to deny, that Disputation is an opening of the Understanding, a sifting out of Truth; it was not to affirm, that any such Disquisition is in and of itself unprofitable: If it had, S. Stephen c Act. 6. 9 would not have disputed with the Cyrenians, nor S. Paul with the d Act. 9 29. Grecians first, and then with the jews e Act. 17. 17. , and all Comers. No sure: it was some abuse in the Disputants, that frustrated the good of the Disputation. And one abuse in the Disputants, is a Resolution to hold their own, though it be by unworthy means, and disparagement f Debilitatur generosa indoles coniecta in argutias. Sen. Ep. 48. of Truth. The B. finds it here. For as it is true, that this Question was asked; so it is altogether false, that it was asked in this form, or so answered. There is a great deal of difference (especially as Romanists handle the Question of the Church) between The Church, and A Church; and there is some, between a True Church, and a Right Church: which is the word you use, but no man else that I know; I am sure, not the B. The Church may import in our Language, The only true Church; and perhaps (as some of you seem to make it) the Root and the Ground of the Catholic. This the B. never did, never means to grant. A Church can imply no more, than that it is a member of the whole. This the B. never did, nor ever will deny, if it fall not absolutely away from Christ. That it is a True Church, he granted also; but not a Right (as you impose upon him:) For Ens and Verum, Being and True, are convertible one with another; and every thing which hath a Being, is truly that Being which it is, in truth of substance. But this word Right is not so used, but is referred more properly to perfection in Conditions: And in this sense, every thing that hath a true and real being, is not by and by right in the Conditions of it. A man that is most dishonest, and unworthy the name, a very Thief (if you will) is a True man, in the verity of his essence, as he is a Creature endued with Reason; for this, none can steal from him, nor he from himself, but Death: but he is not therefore a right or an upright man. And a Church that is exceeding corrupt, both in Manners and Doctrine, and so a dishonour to the name, is yet a True Church in the verity of essence, as a Church is a company of men, which profess the Faith of Christ, and are baptised into his Name: but yet it is not therefore a Right Church, either in Doctrine, or Manners. It may be, by this word Right, you meant cunningly to slip it in, that the B. should grant it Orthodox. This he never granted you: For Orthodox Christians are keepers of integrity, and followers of right things (so Saint Augustine a Integritatis custodes & Recta sectantes. De vera Relig. c. 5. ) of which, the Church of Rome is neither. In this sense than no Right, that is, Orthodox Church at Rome. And yet no news, that the B. granted the Roman Church to be a True Church: For so much, very learned Protestants b Hook. lib. 3. §. 1. junius, lib. de Eccles. cap. 17. Fallantur qui Ecclesiam negant quia Papatus in ea est. Reynold. Thess. 5. Negat tantum esse Catholicam, vel sanum eius membrum. Nay, the very Anabaptists grant it. Fr. johnson in his Treatise called, A Christian Plea, printed 1617. pag. 123. etc. have acknowledged, before him; and the Truth cannot deny it. For that Church which receives the Scripture as a Rule of Faith, though but as a partial and imperfect Rule; and both the Sacraments, as instrumental Causes and Seals of Grace, though they add more, and misuse these; yet cannot but be a True Church in essence. How it is in Manners and Doctrine, I would you would look to it with a single eye: c Si tamen bono ingenio Pietas & Pax quaedam mentis accedat, fine qua de sanctis rebus nihil prorsus intelligi potest. S. August. de vtil. Cred. cap. 18. For if Piety and a peaceable mind be not joined to a good understanding, nothing can be known in these great things. F. Further he confessed, That Protestants had made a Rent and Division from it. B. The B. (I know from himself) could here be heartily a Grauè omninò crimen, sed defensionem longinquam non 〈◊〉, satis est enim negare, sicut pro Ecclesia olim. S. Aug. de vtil. Cred. c. 5. angry, but that he hath resolved, in handling matters of Religion, to leave all gall out of his Ink, and makes me strain it out of mine. There is a miserable Rent in the Church, and I make no question but the best men do most bemoan it b Hanc quae respectu hominum Ecclesia dicitur obseruare eiusq, communionem 〈◊〉 debemus. Calu. 4. Inst. c. 1. §. 7. : Nor is he a Christian, that would not have unity, might he have it with Truth. But the B. never said; nor thought, that the Protestants made this Rent. The cause of the Schism, is yours; for you thrust us from you, because we called for Truth, and redress of Abuses: For a Schism must needs be theirs, whose the cause of it is. The Woe runs full out of the mouth of c S. 〈◊〉. 18. 7. Christ, ever against him that gives the offence; not against him that takes it, ever. But you have given the B. just cause, never to treat with you, or your like, but before a judge, or a jury. F. Moreover, he said, he would ingenuously acknowledge, That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church, was not a sufficient cause to justify their departing from it. B. I would the B. could say, you did as ingenuously repeat, as he did confess. He never said, That Corruption of Manners was not a sufficient cause to justify their departure. How could he say this, since he did not grant that they did depart? There is difference between departure, and causeless thrusting from you; for out of the Church, is not in your power to thrust us: Think on that. And so much the B. said expressly then. That which the B. did ingenuously confess, was this, That Corruption in Manners only, is no sufficient cause to Modo ea quae ad Cathedram pertinent recta praecipiant. Hier. ep. 236. make a separation in the Church: Nor is it. It is a truth agreed on by the Fathers, and received by Divines of all sorts, save by the Cathari, to whom came the Donatist, and the Anabaptist; against which, d Lib. 4. c. 1. §. 13. etc. Calvin disputes it strongly. And Saint Augustine e Ep. 48. A malis piscib' cord semper & moribus seperantur, etc. Corporalem separationem in litore Maris, hoc est, in fine seculi expectat. is plain: There are bad Fish in the Net of the Lord, from which there must be ever a separation in heart, and in manners; but a corporal separation must be expected at the Sea shore, that is, the end of the World. And the best Fish that are, must not tear and break the Net, because the bad are with them. And this is as ingenuously confessed for you, as by the B. For if Corruption in Manners were a just cause of actual separation of one Church from another, in that Catholic Body of Christ, the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any, since (as f Vix ullum peccatum (solâ Haeresi exceptâ) cogitari potest, quo illa sedes turpiter maculata non fuerit, maximè ab an. 800. Relect. Cont. 1. q. 5. A. 3. Stapleton grants) there is scarce any sin that can be thought by man (Heresy only excepted) with which that Sea hath not been foully stained, especially from eight hundred years after Christ. And he need not except Heresy, into which a In Can. Miss. Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall. And b In S. Luc. c. 22. L. 3. D. 24. q. 1. Stella and Almain grants it freely, that some of them did fall, and so ceased to be Heads of the Church; and left Christ (God be thanked) at that time of his Vicar's Defection, to look to his Cure himself. F. But (saith he) beside Corruption of Manners, there were also Errors in Doctrine. B. This the B. spoke indeed: And can you prove that he spoke not true in this? But the B. added (though here again you are pleased to omit) That some of her Errors were dangerous to salvation. For it is not every light Error, in disputable Doctrine, and Points of curious Speculation, that can be a just cause of separation, in that admirable Body of Christ, which is his c Eph. 1.23. Church; for which he gave his Natural Body to be rend and torn upon the Cross, that this Mystical Body of his might be One. And S. Augustine d Ep. 50. infers upon it, That he is no way partaker of Divine Charity, that is an enemy to this Unity. Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just cause of separation in this Body, were it never so easy to determine (as I think it is most difficult) I would not venture to set it down, least in these times of Discord I might be thought to open a Door for Schism; which I will never do, unless it be to let it out. But that there are Errors in Doctrine, and some of them such as endanger salvation, in the Church of Rome, is evident to them that will not shut their eyes: The proof whereof, runs through the particular Points that are between us; and so it is too long for this discourse, which is grown too big already. F. Which when the general Church would not reform, it was lawful for particular Churches to reform themselves. I asked Quo judice, Did this appear to be so? B. Is it then such a strange thing, that a particular Church may reform itself, if the general will not? I had thought, and do so still, That in point of Reformation of either Manners or Doctrine, it is lawful for the Church since Christ, to do as the Church before Christ did, and might do. The Church before Christ, consisted of jews and Proselytes: this Church came to have a separation, upon a most ungodly Policy of c 3. Reg. 12.27. 〈◊〉, so that it never pieced together again. To a Common Council, to reform all, they would not come. Was it not lawful for judah to reform herself, when Israel would not join? Sure it was, or else the Prophet deceives me, that says exactly, a Host 4. 15. Though Israel transgress, yet letnot judah sin. And S. Hierome b Super Haereticis prona intelligentia est. S. Hier. ibid. expresses it in this very particular sin of Heresy and Error in Religion. Nor can you say, that Israel, from the time of the separation, was not a Church, for there were true Prophets in it, c 3. Reg. 17. sub Achabo. Elias, and d 4. Reg. 3. sub lehoram, filio Achabi. Elizaeus, and others, and e 3. Reg. 19.18. thousands that had not bowed knees to Baal. And there was salvation for these; which cannot be, where there is no Church. And God threatens to f Host 9 17. cast them away, to wander among the Nations, and be no Congregation, no Church: therefore he had not yet cast them away into Non Ecclesiam, into no Church. And they are expressly called the people of the Lord in g 4. Reg. 9.6. Iehu's time, and so continued long after. Nor can you plead, that judah is your part, and the Ten Tribes ours (as some of you do:) for if that be true, you must grant, that the Multitude and greater number is ours: And where then is Multitude, your numerous Note of the Church? But you cannot plead it: For certainly, if any Calves be set up, they are in Dan and Bethel, they are not ours. Besides, to reform what is amiss in Doctrine or Manners, is as lawful for a particular Church, as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholic in either. And your Question, Quo iudice? lies alike against both. And yet I think it may be proved, that the Church of Rome, and that as a particular Church, did promulgate an Orthodox Truth, which was not then catholicly admitted in the Church; namely, The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. If she erred in this Fact, confess her Error; if she erred not, Why may not another Church do as she did? A learned Schooleman of yours saith she may: h Non oportuit ad hoc eos vocare quum authoritas fuerit publicandi apud Ecclesiam Romanam, praecipuè quum unicuique etiam particulari Ecclesiae liceat, id quod Catholicum est promulgare. Alb. Mag. in 1. D. 11. A. 9 The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this Truth, since the Authority of publishing it was in the Church of Rome, especially since it is lawful for every particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholic. Nor can you say he means Catholic, as foredetermined by the Church in general; for so this Point, when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a General Council, was nor. And how the Grecians were used in the after Council (such as it was) of Florence, is not to trouble this Dispute; but Catholic stands there for that which is so in the 〈◊〉 of it, and fundamentally. Nor can you justly say, That the Church of Rome did, or might do this, by the Pope's Authority 〈◊〉 the Church. For suppose he have that, and that his Sentence be infallible (I say suppose both, but I give neither) yet neither his Authority nor his 〈◊〉 can belong unto him, as the particular Bishop of that See, but as the a Non errare convenit Papae ut est caput. Bell. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. 〈◊〉 Head of the whole Church. And you are all so lodged in this, that b Li. 2. de Christo, c. 21. So you cannot find 〈◊〉 of your 〈◊〉 Truths, which are far more likely to be kept: but when Errors are crept in, we must be bound to tell the 〈◊〉, and the Time, & I know not what, of their Beginnings, or else they are not Errors. As if some Errors might not want a Record, as well as some Truth. Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the year when, nor the Pope under whom this Addition was made. A particular Church then, if you judge it by the School of Rome, or the Practice of Rome, may publish any thing that is Catholic, where the whole Church is silent; and may therefore reform any thing that is not Catholic, where the whole Church is negligent, or will not. But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome, as c De Appel. Eccl. 〈◊〉. cap. 2. num. 12. Capellus is, who is angry with Baronius about certain Canons in the second Milevitan Council, and saith, That he considered not of what consequence it was, to grant to particular Churches the power of making Canons of Faith, without consulting the Roman See, which (as he saith, and you with him) was never lawful, nor ever done. But suppose this were so, the B. his speech was not, Not consulting, but in case of neglecting, or refusing. Besides, you must be put in remembrance too, that the B. spoke at that time (and so must all that will speak of that Exigent) of the General Church, as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Roman See: and this you understand well enough; for in your very next words you call it the Roman Church. Now I make no doubt, but that as the universal Catholic Church would have reform herself, had she been freed of the 〈◊〉 yoke; so while she was under that yoke, the Church of Rome was, if 〈◊〉 the only, yet the chief hindrance of Reformation. And then in this sense it is more than clear, That if the Roman Church will neither reform, nor suffer Reformation, it is lawful for any particular Church to reform itself, so long as it doth it peaceably, and keeps itself to the Foundation. F. Which Question I asked, as not thinking it equity, that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers, Witnesses, and Judges of the Roman Church. B. You do well to tell the reason now, why you asked this Question; the B. says you did not 〈◊〉 it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Conference: if you had, you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 received your Answer. It is most true: No man in common 〈◊〉 ought to be suffered to be Accuser, Witness, and 〈◊〉 in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. But is there not 〈◊〉 little 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 too, that any man that is accused, should be the Accused, and yet Witness and judge in his own Cause 〈◊〉 If the first may hold, no man shall be Innocent; and if the last, none will be Nocent. And what do we here with (in their own Cause, against the Roman Church?) Why, is it not your own too against the Protestant Church? And if it be a cause common to both, as certain it is, than neither part alone may be judge: If neither alone may judge, then either they must be judged by a Third, which stands indifferent to both; and that is the Scripture. Or if there be a jealousy or doubt of the sense of Scripture, they must either both repair to the Exposition of the Primitive Church, and submit to that, or both call and submit to a General Council, which fhall be lawfully called, and fairly and freely held, to judge the difference according to Scripture; which must be their Rule, as well as private men's. F. I also asked, Who ought to judge in this case? The B. said, a General Council. B. And surely, What greater or surer judgement you can have, where sense of Scripture is doubted, than a General Council, I do not see? Nor do you doubt: for you add, F. I told him, That a General Council, to wit, of Trent, had already judged, not the Roman Church, but the Protestants, to hold Errors. That (saith the B.) was not a lawful Council. B. It is true, that you replied for the Council of Trent. And the B. his answer was, not only, That that Council was not Legal, in the necessary conditions to be observed in a General Council, but that it was no General Council, which again you are content to omit. Consider it well. First, Is that Council Legal, the Abettors whereof maintain publicly, That it is lawful for them to conclude any Controversy, and make it be de Fide, and so in your judgement Fundamental; though it have not, I do not say now the written Word of God for warrant, either in express Letter, or necessary sense and deduction (as all unerring Counsels have had, and as all must have, that will not err) but not so much as a Etiamsi 〈◊〉 confirmetur ne probabili Testimonio Scripturarun. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. probable Testimony from it; nay, quite Extra, without the Scripture? Nay more, Is that Council Legal, where the Pope, the chief person to be reform, shall sit Precedent in it, and be chief judge in his own Cause, against all Law, Divine, Natural, and Humane? In a place not free, but in or too near his own Dominion? To which all were not called, that had deliberative or 〈◊〉 voice? In which, none had Suffrage, but such as were sworn to the Pope, and the Church of Rome, and professed Enemies to all that called for Reformation, or a free Council? And the Pope himself, to show his Charity, had declared and pronounced the Appellants, Heretics, before Leo 10. Bull. jun. 8. 1520. they were condemned by the Council. I hope, an Assembly of Enemies are no lawful Council: And I think, the Decrees of such a One, are omni iure nulla, and carry their nullity with them through all Law. And again, Is that Council General, that hath none of the Eastern Church's consent, nor presence there? Are all the greeks so become non Ecclesia, no Church, that they have no interest in General Counsels? It numbers indeed among the Subscribers, six greeks; they might be so by Nation, or by Title purposely given them: but dare you say they were actually Bishops of, and sent from the Greek Church to the Council? Or is it to be accounted a General Council, that in many Sessions had scarce ten Archbishops, or forty, or fifty Bishops present? And for the West of Christendom, nearer home, it reckons one English, S. Asaph: but Cardinal Poole was there too. English indeed he was by birth, but not sent to that Council by the King and Church of England, but as one of the Pope's Legates: for at the beginning of the Council, he was not Bishop in the Church of England; and after he was Archbishop of Canterbury, he never went over to the Council. And can you prove, that S. Asaph went thither by Authority? There were but few of other Nations, and it may be, some of them reckoned with no more truth than the greeks. In all the Sessions under Paul the third, but two Frenchmen, and sometimes none; as in the sixth under julius the third, when Henry the second, of France, protested against that Council. And in the end it is well known, how all the French, which were then a good party, held off, till the Cardinal of Lorraine was got to Rome. As for the Spaniards, they laboured for many things upon good grounds, and were most unworthily over-borne. F. So (said I) would Arrians say of the Council of Nice. The B. would not admit the case to be like: B. So indeed you said. And not you alone: It is the common Objection made against all that admit not every later Council, as that Council of Nice, famous through all the Christian World. In the mean time, nor you nor they consider, that the case is not alike, as the B. told you. If the case be alike in all, Why do not you admit that which was held at Ariminum; and the second, of Ephesus, as well as Nice? If you say (as yours do,) It was because the Pope approved them not; I will put off the invalidity of this Answer to a sitter time: in the mean space, suppose it true, and strong, this ground is gained, That the case is not alike for consent to all Counsels. And if you look to have this granted, That the Pope must confirm, or the councel's not lawful; we have far more reason to look that this be not denied, That the Scripture must not be departed from in Letter or necessary Sense, or, the Councells not lawful. And the consent and confirmation of Scripture is of far greater Authority to make the Council Authentical, and the decisions of it de Fide, than any confirmation of the Popes. The Council of Nice had the first, you say: We are sure it had the second. The Council of Trent we are able to prove had not the second, and so we have no reason to respect the first. And to what end do your learned men maintain, That a Council may make a Conclusion de Fide, though it be simply a Stapl. passim. sed aliter patres. Quae extra Euangelium sunt non defendam? Hilar. lib. 2. ad Const. Extrà, out of all bound of Scripture; but out of a jealousy at least, that this of Trent, and some others, have in their determinations left both Letter and Sense of Scripture? Show this of Nice, and the B. will grant so much of the case to be like. But what will you say, if b Literarun diuinit' inspiratarum testimonijs, L. 2. in Syn. Nic. To. 1. per Nicolinum. Ib. in Osij sententia, p. 517. Parati ex S. Spiritus arbitrio per plutima Diuinarum Scripturarum testimonia demonstrare haec ità se habere. Constantine required, That things brought into question, should be answered and solued by Testimony out of Scripture? And the Bishops of the Nicene Council never refused that Rule. And what will you say, if they profess they depart not from it, but are ready by many Testimonies of Divine Scripture to demonstrate their Faith? Is the case then alike betwixt it and Trent? But you say, the B. pretended somewhat else for his not admitting the case to be like. F. Pretending, that the Pope made Bishops of purpose, for his side. But this the Bishop proved not. B. No: nor had he reason to take on him to prove what he said not. He knows it will be expected he should prove what he saith; and it is hard to prove the purpose of the Pope's heart. For if it be proved, that he made Bishops at that time; that some of them were titular only, and had no livelihood to subsist, but out of his Purse (and so must hang at the strings of it;) that some of these, thus made, were sent to the Council, and sure not without their Errand: yet if the Pope will say, he neither made nor sent them to overrule the Holy Ghost at that meeting, or of purpose for his side (as no question but it will be said) Who can prove it, that is not a Surveyor of the Heart? But though the Pope's heart cannot be seen, yet if these and the like presumptions be true, it is a great sign that Trent was too corrupt and factious a meeting for the Holy Ghost to be at. And sure the case in this, not alike at Nice. That which 〈◊〉 B. said, was, That Trent could be no indifferent Council to the Church, the Pope having made himself a strong party in it. And this the B. proved, though you be here not only content to omit, but plainly to deny the proof. For did not the B. prove it thus? and you answered not; That there were more Italian Bishops there, than of all Christendom beside: more? yea, more than double. And this he proved out of the Council itself, which you had in your hand in Decimo Sexto, but had no great heart to look it. For where the number of Prelates are expressed that had Suffrage and Vote in that Council, the Italians are set down to be 187, and all the rest make but 83. So there were more Italian Bishops by 104, than of all the rest of Christendom. Sure the Pope did not mean to be overreached in this Council: And whatsoever became of his infallibility otherwise, he might this way be sure to be infallible in whatsoever he would have determined. So the B. proved this sufficiently. For if it were not to be sure of a side, give any satisfying reason, Why such a potent party of Italians, more than double to the whole Christian World, should be there? Show me the like for Nice, and I will give it, that the case is alike between these two Counsels. But you have not yet done with the B. You add: F. In fine, the B. wished, That a lawful General Council were called, to end Controversies. (The persons present) said, That the King was inclined thereunto, and that therefore wee Catholics might do well to concur. B. And what say you to the Bishop's wish? You pretend great love to the Truth, would you not have it found? Can you, or any Christian, be offended, that there should be a good end of Controversies? Can you think of a better end, than by a General Council? And if you have a most gracious King inclined unto it (as you say it was offered) how can you 〈◊〉 yourselves, if you do not consent? Yes, it seems you can: for you say again, F. I asked the B. Whether he thought a General Council might 〈◊〉? He said, It might. B. I presume, you do not look the B. or I for him, should enter into a proof of this Controversy, Whether a General Council may err in determination, or not? Yourself brought no proof, that it cannot; and till that be brought, the Bishop his speech is good, that it can: And yet he hopes to be found no infringer of any power given by Christ to his Church. But it seems by that which follows, you did by this Question (Can a General Council err?) but seek to win ground for your other, which follows: F. If a General Council may err, What nearer are we then (said I) to unity, after a Council determined? Yes (said he) although it may err, yet we should be bound to hold with it, till another come to reverse it. B. Whether a General Council may err, or not, is a Question of great consequence in the Church of Christ. To say it cannot err, leaves the Church not only without remedy against an Error, but also without sense that it may need a remedy, and so without care to seek it; which is the misery of the Church of Rome at this day. To say it can err, seems to expose the members of the Church to an uncertainty and wavering in the Faith, makes unquiet spirits not only disrespect former Counsels of the Church, but also slight and contemn whatsoever it may now determine; into which Error, some opposers of the Church of Rome have fallen. And upon this is grounded your Question, Wherein are we nearer to unity, if a Council may err? In relating the B. his Answer to this, you are not so candid, as you confess him ingenuous before. For his words did not sound as yours seem to do, That we should hold with the Council, err or not err, till another came to reverse it: As if grounds of Faith might vary at the Racket, and be cast of each side, as a cunning hand might lay them. You forget again, omit at least, (and with what mind, you best know) the B. his Caution: For he said, The determination of a General Council erring, was to stand in force, and have external obedience at the least yielded to it, till evidence of Scripture, or a demonstration to the contrary, made the Error appear, and until thereupon another Council, of equal Authority, did reverse it. Thus than the B. But indeed he might have returned upon you again: If a General Council, not confirmed by the Pope, may err, (which you affirm) To what end then a General Council? And you may answer, Yes: for although a General Council may err, yet the Pope, as Head of the Church, cannot. An excellent means of unity, to have all in the Church as the Pope will have it, what ever Scripture say, or the Church think. And then I pray, to what end a General Council? Will his Holiness be so holy, as to confirm a General Council, if it determine against him? ay, for my part, am willing a little to consider hereupon the point of General Counsels, How they may, or may not err; and a little to look into the Roman and Protestant opinion concerning them; which is more agreeable to the Power and Rule which Christ hath left in his Church, and which is most preservative of Peace established, or ablest to reduce unity into the Church of Christ, when that poor Ship hath her Ribs dashed in 〈◊〉 by the Waves of Contention. And this Consideration I will venture to the World, but only in the Nature of a 〈◊〉, and with submission to my Mother, the Church of England, and the Mother of us all, the Universal Catholic Church of Christ. 1. First then I consider, Whether all the Power that an Ecumenical Council hath to determine, and all the Assistance it hath, not to err in that determination; it hath it not all from the Catholic universal Body of the Church, or Clergy in the Church, if you will, whose Representative it is? It seems it hath. For the government of the Church being not Monarchical, but as Christ is Head, this Principle is 〈◊〉 in nature, Every Body collective, that represents, receives Power and Privileges from that Body which is represented; else a Representation might have force, without the thing it represents; which cannot be: So, no Power in the Council, no Assistance, but what is in and to the Church. But yet than it may be questioned, Whether the Representing Body hath all the power, strength, and privilege, which the Represented hath? And suppose it hath all the Legal power, yet it hath not all the Natural, either of strength or wisdom, that the whole hath. Now because though Representative hath power from the whole, and the main 〈◊〉 can meet no other way; therefore the Acts, 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉 of the Representative, be it Ecclesiastical or Civil, are binding in their strength. But they are not so certain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉, as that Wisdom which resides in the 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 in Assemblies merely Civil, or Ecclesiastical, all 〈◊〉 men cannot be in the Body that represents. And it is possible so many able and sufficient men (for some particular business) may be out, as that they which are in, may miss, or misapply that. Reason and Ground, upon which the determination is principally to rest. Here, for want of a clear view of this Ground, the Representative Body errs; whereas the Represented, by virtue of these Members, may hold the Principle unviolated. 2. Secondly, I consider, That since it is thus in Nature, and in Civil Bodies, if it be not so in Ecclesiastical too, some reason must be given why, a Ecclesia est unum corpus mysticum per similitudinem ad Naturale. Durand. 3. D. 14. q. 2. n. 5. Biel, Lect. 23. in Can. Miss. For that Body also consists of men: Those men neither all equal in their perfections of Knowledge and judgement, whether acquired by Industry, or rooted in nature, or infused by God: Not all equal, nor any one of them perfect and absolute, or freed from passion and humane infirmities: Nor doth their meeting together, make them infallible in all things, though the Act which is hammered out by many together, must in reason be perfecter than that which is but the Child of one man's sufficiency. If then a General Council have no ground of not erring from the men, or the meeting, either it must not be at all, or be by some assistance and power upon them, when they are so met together: And this, if it be less than the assistance of the Holy Ghost, it cannot make them secure against Error. 3. Thirdly, I consider, That the assistance of the Holy Ghost is without Error, that's no question; and as little there is, that a Council hath it. But the doubt that troubles, is, Whether all assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded in such a high manner, as to cause all the Definitions of a Council, in matters fundamental in the Faith, and in remote Deductions from it, to be alike infallible? The Romanists, to prove there is b Omnem veritatem infallibiliter docendi, etc. Stapl. Relect. praef. ad Lector. infallible assistance, produce some places of Scripture; but no one of them infers, much less enforces an infallibility. The places which Stapleton there rests upon, are these: c S. joh. 16.13. I will send you the Spirit of Truth, which will lead you into all Truth: And, d S. joh. 14.16. This Spirit shall abide with you for ever: And, e S. Matth. 28.20. Behold, I am with you unto the end of the World. To these, others add, f S. Matth. 16.18. The founding of the Church upon the Rock, against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail: And, Christ's prayer for S. Peter, g S. Luc. 22.32. That his Faith fail not. 1. For the first, which is, Leading into all Truth, and that for ever: h Prosp. de vocat. Gent. lib. 1. c. 10. All, is not always universally taken in Scripture; nor is it here simply for All Truth: for then a General Council could no more err in matter of Fact, than in matter of Faith; in which yet your i Bellarm. 2. de Conc. c. 8. §. Respondeo quidam. selves grant it may err. But into All a Dubium est an 〈◊〉 docebit 〈◊〉, S. joh. 14. 26. referendum sit ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dixi 〈◊〉 quasi non aliud docturum 〈◊〉. Sanct. dicat, quam quod ipse antea docuisset, non repugnabo si quis ita velit interpretare, etc. 〈◊〉. in S. joh. 14. Truth, is a limited All; into All Truth absolutely necessary to salvation: And this, when they suffer themselves to be led by the blessed Spirit, by the Word of God. And all Truth which Christ had before (at least fundamentally) delivered unto them, b S. joh. 16.14. He shall receive of mine, and show it unto you: And again, c S. joh. 14.26. He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, which I have told you. And for this necessary Truth too, the Apostles received this promise not for themselves, and a Council, but for themselves, and the d Bellarm. 2. de Conc. c. 9 §. alteram. 〈◊〉 Sp. Sancti, non est propter Concil. sed universam Ecclesiam. whole Catholic Church; of which, a Council, be it never so general, is a very little part: Yea, and this very Assistance is not so absolute, nor in that manner to the whole Church, as it was to the Apostles; neither doth Christ in that place speak directly of a Council, but of his Apostles Preaching, and Doctrine. 2. As for Christ's being with them unto the end of the World, the Fathers are so various, that in the sense of the ancient Church, we may understand him present in e S. August. Tr. 50. in S. joh. Isidor. 1. Senten. cap. 14. Majesty, in f S. Hilar. in Psalm. 124. justine Martyr. Dial. cum Triphone. Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem. Power, in Aid g S. Hilar. in Psalm. 124. Prosper, lib. 2. de vocat. Gent. cap. 2. 〈◊〉. Serm. 2. de Resurrect. Dom. cap. 3. Isidor. in jos. cap. 12. and Assistance, against the difficulties they should find, for preaching Christ; which is the native sense, as I take it. And this promise was made, to support their weakness. As for his presence, in teaching by the Holy Ghost, h S. Cyril, lib. 7. Dial. de Trin. Prosp. Epist. ad 〈◊〉. few mention it; and no one of them which doth, speaks of any infallible Assistance, further than the succeeding Church keeps to the Word of the Apostles, as the Apostles kept to the guidance of the Spirit. Besides, the i S. Hilar. in Psalm. 124. S. Cyril, lib. 7. Dial. de Trin. S. August. 6. de Gen. ad Lit. c. 8. S. Leo. Serm. 10. de Natiu. Dom. c. 5. Isid. in jos. c. 12. In all which places, Vobiscum is either interpreted cum suis, or fidelibus, or universa Ecclesia. Fathers refer their speech to the Church universal, not to any Council, or Representative Body. And k Hoc colligitur, sed quaeritur non quid colligitur, sed quid dicere voluit. 〈◊〉. in S. Matth. 28. Maldonate adds, That this his presence by teaching, is or may be a Collection from the place, but is not the intention of Christ. 3. For the Rock upon which the Church is founded, which is the next place, we dare not lay any other Foundation than l 1. Cor. 3. 11. Christ: Christ laid his m Ephes. 2.20. Apostles; no question, but upon himself. With these, S. Peter was laid, no man questions: And in prime place of Order, (would his claiming Successors be content with that) as appears, and divers Father's witness, by his particular designment, Tu es Petrus. But yet the Rock even there spoken of, is not S. Peter's person, either only or properly, but the Faith which he professed. And to this, beside the Evidence which is in Text and Truth, the a S. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉. Qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam super Petram aedificatione spirituali. S. Hilar. l. 6. de 〈◊〉. Super hanc 〈◊〉 Confessionis Petram Ecclesiae aedificatio est. Et 〈◊〉 post, Hec Fides 〈◊〉 fundamentum est. S. Greg. Nyss. de Trin. advers. 〈◊〉. Super 〈◊〉 Petram 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam meam, super 〈◊〉, videlicet, Christi. S. Isid. Pelus. Epist. lib. 1. Ep. 235. Vt hac ratione 〈◊〉 omnibus Confessionem traderer, quam ab 〈◊〉 inspiratus Petrus tanquam basin ac fundamentum iecit, super quod 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam suam exstruxit. S. Cyril. Alex. de Trin. lib. 4. Petram opinor per agnominationem, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quam inconcussam & firmissimam Discipuli Fidem vocavit, in quâ Ecclesia Christi ita fundata, & firmata esset, ut non laberetur, etc. B. Theodor. in Cant. Petram appellat Fidei pietatem, veritatis professionem, etc. Et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam. S. Greg. Ep. 〈◊〉. 3. Ep. 33. In vera fide persistite, & vitam vestram in Petram Ecclesiae, hoc est in Confession 〈◊〉 Petri Apostolorum Principis solidate. Theophilact. in Matth. 16. Super eum aedificavit Ecclesiam; quia enim confessus 〈◊〉, etc. quod haec confessio fundamentum erit, etc. S. Aug. in 1. Ep. S. joh. tract. 10. Quid est super hanc Petram? Super hanc Fidem, super id quod dictum est, Tu es etc. S. 〈◊〉. Orat. 25. Hanc confessionem cum nominasset Christus Petram, Petrum nuncupat eum, qui primum illam est confessus, donans illi hanc appellationem 〈◊〉 insigne & monumentum huius confessionis. Haec enim est reverà pietatis Petra, haec salutis basis, etc. S. Jacob. Liturgia, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; p. 26. etc. And some which 〈◊〉 the person of S. Peter, profess it is propter robur Confessionis. justin Martyr, Dial. cum Triph. S. Chrys. Hom. 2. in Psal. 50. S. Amb. lib. 10. in S. Luc. c. 24. And S. Greg. gives it for a Rule, when Petra is read in the singular number (and so it is here) Christus est, Christ is signified. Fathers come in with very full consent. And this, That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it, is not spoken of the not 〈◊〉 of the Church principally, but of the not b Non deficit. S. Bern. Ser. 79. in Cant. And Bellarmine himself going to prove Ecclesiam non posse deficere, begins with this very place of Scripture. Lib. 3. de Eccl. c. 13. falling away of it from the Foundation. Now a Church may err, and dangerously too, and yet not fall from the Foundation, especially if that of c Lib. 3. de Ecclesia, cap. 14. Bellarmine be true, That there are many things, even de Fide, of the Faith, which yet are not necessary to salvation. Besides, even here again the promise of this stable edification, is to the whole Church, not to a Council; at the least, no further than a Council builds as a Church is built, that is, upon Christ. 4. The last place, is Christ's Prayer for S. Peter's Faith. The 〈◊〉 sense of which place is, That Christ prayed and obtained for S. Peter perseverance in the grace of God, against the strong temptation which was to winnow him above the rest. But to conclude an infallibility from hence in the Pope, or in his Chair, or in the Roman See, or in a General Council, though the Pope be Precedent, I find no ancient Fathers that dare adventure it. And d Lib. 4. 〈◊〉 Pontif. Rom. cap. 3. Bellarmine himself, besides some Popes, in their own Cause (and that in Epistles counterfeit, or falsely alleged) hath not a Father to name for this sense of the place, till he come downeto Chrysologus, Theophylact, and S. Bernard: of which, Chrysologus his speech is but a flash of Rhetoric; and the other two are men of Yesterday, compared with Antiquity, and lived when (it was Gods great grace, and our wonder) the corruption of the time had not made them corrupter than they are. And Thomas is resolute, that what is meant here beyond S. Peter's person, is e 2 2. q. 2. A 6. ad 3. referred to the whole Church. And the Glass upon the Canon Law is more peremptory than he, even to the denial, that it is f Causa. 24. q. 1. C. A Recta. meant of the Pope. And if this place warrant not the Pope's Faith, Where is the infallibility of the Council that depends upon it? And for all the places together, weigh them with indifferency, and either they speak of the Church (including the Apostles) as all of them do; and then all grant the voice of the Church is God's voice, Divine and Infallible: or else they are general, unlimited, and appliable to private Assemblies, as well as General Counsels; which none grant to be infallible, but some mad Enthusiasts: or else they are limited, not simply into All Truth, but, All necessary to Salvation; in which I shall easily grant a General Council cannot err, if it suffer itself to be led by this 〈◊〉 of Truth in the Scripture, and take not upon it to lead both the Scripture and the Spirit. For suppose these places, or any other, did promise Assistance even to Infallibility, yet they granted it not to every General Council, but to the Catholic Body of the Church itself. And if it be in the whole Church principally, then is it in a General Council but by Consequent, as the Council represents the whole. And that which belongs to a thing by consequent, doth not otherwise, nor longer, belong unto it, than it consents and cleaves to that upon which it is a Consequent. And therefore a General Council hath not this Assistance, but as it keeps to the whole Church and Spouse of Christ, whose it is to hear his Word, and determine by it. And therefore, if a General Council will go out of the Church's Way, it may easily go without the Church's Truth. 4. Fourthly I consider, That All agree, That the Church in general can never err from the Faith necessary to salvation: No Persecution, no Temptation, and no a 〈◊〉. 16.18. Gates of Hell, whatsoever is meant by them, can ever so prevail against it. For all the members of the Militant Church cannot err, either in the whole Faith, or in any Article of it; it is impossible. For if all might so err, there could be no union between them as members, and Christ the Head: And no union between Head and members, no Body, and so no Church; which cannot be. But there is not the like consent, That b Ecclesia 〈◊〉 fidem habet 〈◊〉, etc. non quidem in Generali Synodo congregata, quam aliquoties errasse 〈◊〉, etc. Wald. lib. 2. Doct. Fid. Ar. 2. c. 19 §. 1. General Counsels cannot err. And it seems strange to me, that the Father's having to do with so many Heretics, and so many of them opposing Church. Authority in their condemnation, this Proposition, even in terms (A General Council cannot err) should be found in none of them, that I can yet see. Suppose it were true, That no General Council had erred in any matter of moment to this day, which will not be found true; yet this would not have followed, that it is therefore infallible, and cannot err. I have not time to descend into particulars; therefore to the General still. S. Augustine c 2. Bapt. contr. Donat. cap. 3. puts a difference between the Rules of Scripture, and the definitions of men. This difference is, Praeponitur Scriptura, That the Scripture hath the Prerogative: That Prerogative is, That whatsoever is found written in Scripture, may neither be doubted, nor disputed, whether it be true, or right: But the Letters of Bishops may not only be disputed, but corrected by Bishops that are more learned and wise than they, or by national Counsels; and national Counsels, by 〈◊〉, or General: And even a Ipsaque plenaria 〈◊〉 priora à posteriorib' emendari. Plenary Counsels themselves may be amended, the former by the latter. It seems it was no news with S. Augustine, that a General Council might err, and therefore inferior to the Scripture, which may neither be doubted, nor disputed, where it affirms. And if it be so with the definition of a Council too (as b Vox Ecclesiae talis 〈◊〉, ut non de eâ iudicemus 〈◊〉 ne an secus docuerit. So Stapl. Rel. Cont. 4. q. 1. Ar. 1. Stapleton would have it) That that may neither be doubted, nor disputed, Where is then the Scriptures Prerogative? I know there is much shifting about this place, but it cannot be wrestled off. Stapleton c De Regulis Morum & Disciplina. 〈◊〉. Con. 6. q. 3. A. 4. says first, That S. Augustine speaks of the Rules of Manners, and Discipline: And this is Bellarmine's last shift. Both are out, and Bellarmine in a Contradiction. Bellarmine in a Contradiction: For first he tells us, General Counsels cannot err in d Lib. 2. de Concil. 〈◊〉. 2. Princip. Precepts of Manners; and then, to turn off S. Augustine in this place, he tells us, That if S. Augustine doth not speak of matter of Fact, but of Right, and of universal Questions of Right, than he is to be understood of e Ib. cap. 7. §. Potest etiam. Precepts of Manners, not of Points of Faith. Where he hath first run himself upon a Contradiction; and then we have gained this ground upon him, That either his Answer is nothing, or else against his own state of the Question. A General Council can err in Precepts of Manners; and both are out: For the whole dispute of S. Augustine, is against the Error of Cyprian, followed by the 〈◊〉, That true Baptism could not be given by Heretics, and such as were out of the Church. And the proof which Stapleton and Bellarmine draw out of the subsequent words, ( f Quando aliquo rerum experimento quod clausam erat aperitur. When by any experiment of things, that which was shut, is opened) is too weak: For experiment there is not of Fact; nor are the words conclusum est, as if it were of a Rule of Discipline concluded, as Stapleton cities them; but a further experiment or proof of the Question in hand, and pertaining to Faith, which was then shut up, and as S. Augustine after speaks, g Ib. c. 4. Nebulis involuta. wrapped up in cloudy darkness. Next, Stapleton h Sensus est quod Concilia posteriora emendant, id est, perfectius explicant fidem in semine antiquae Doctrinae latentem, etc. will have it, That if S. Augustine do speak of a Cause of Faith, than his meaning is, that latter General Counsels can mend, that is, explicate more perfectly that Faith which lay hid in the Seed of ancient Doctrine. He makes instance, That about the Divinity of Christ, the Council of Ephesus explicated the first of Nice; Chalcedon, both of them; Constance, Chalcedon: And then concludes, a Quâ in re nihil erroneum ullum Concil. docuit, etc. In all which things, none of (these) Counsels taught that which was erroneous. An excellent Conclusion: These Counsels, and These, in this thing, taught no Error, and were only explained: Therefore no Council can err in any matter of Faith; or therefore S. Augustine speaks not of an emendation of Error, but of an explanation of Sense: whereas every Eye sees neither of these can follow. Now that S. Augustine meant plainly, That even a Plenary Council might err, and that b Saepè. often, (for that is his word) and that in matter of Faith, and might and ought so to be amended in a latter Council, I think will thus appear. First, his word is Emendari, amend, which properly supposes for Error and faultiness, not explanation: And S. Augustine needed not go to a word of such a c Not used, but either for conigere, or auferre. And so S. Augustine uses the word, l. 20. cont. Faust. c. 21. and Bellarmine, though he interpret it in matter of fact, yet equals the word with correxit. 2. de Conc. ca 8. §. Respond. Quaest forced sense, nor sure would, especially in a Disputation against Adversaries. Next, S. Augustine's Dispute is against S. Cyprian, and the Council held at Carthage, about Baptism by Heretics; in which point, that national Council erred (as all now agree.) And S. Augustine's deduction goes on: Scripture cannot be other than right; that is the prerogative of it: but Bishops may, and be d Reprehendi. Reprehended for it, if peradventure they err from the Truth; and that either by more learned Bishops, or by Provincial Counsels. Here Reprehension, and that for deviation from the Truth, is (I hope) Emendation properly, and not Explanation only. e Si quid in iis fortè a veritate deviatum est. Then Provincial Counsels, they must f Cedere. yield to General; and to yield, is not in case of Explanation only. Then it follows, that even Plenary Counsels themselves may be amended, the former by the latter; still retaining that which went before, If peradventure they erred, or made deviation from the Truth. And if this be not so, I would fain know, why in one and the same tenure of words, in one and the same continuing Argument, and deduction of S. Augustine, Reprehendi should be in proper sense, and à veritate deviatum in proper sense, and Cedere in proper sense; and only Emendari should not be proper, but stand for an Explanation? If you say the reason is, because the former words are applied to men, and national Counsels, both which may err, but this last to General Counsels, which cannot err; this is most miserable begging of the Principle, and thing in question. Again, S. Augustine concludes there, That the General Council preceding, may be amended by General Counsels that follow, g Quum cognoscitur quod latebat. When that is known, which lay hid before. Not as Stapleton would have it, lay hid as in the Seed of ancient Doctrine only, and so needed nothing but explanation; but hid in some darkness, or ambiguity, which led the former into error, and mistaking, as appears: For S. Augustine would have this amendment made, without sacrilegious Pride, (doubtless of insulting upon the former Council, that was to be amended) and without swelling Arrogancy (sure against the weakness in the former Council) and without contention of Envy (which uses to accompany man's frailty, where his or his friend's error is to be amended by the latter Council) and in holy Humility, in Catholic Peace, in Christian Charity, (no question, that a Schism be not made to tear the Church, as here the Donatists did, while one Council goes to reform the Lapse of another, if any be.) Now to what end should this learned Father be so zealous in this work, this highest work that I know in the Church (Reviewing and surveying General Counsels) to keep off Pride, and Arrogancy, and Envy, and to keep all in Humility, Peace, and Charity; if after all this noise, he thought latter Counsels might do nothing but amend, that is, explain the former? That shift which Bellarmine adds to these two of Stapleton, is poorest of all, namely, That S. Augustine speaks of unlawful Counsels; and it is no question but they may be amended, as the second Ephesine was at Chalcedon: for this Answer gives up the case. For it grants, That a Council may err, and be amended in Doctrine of Faith; and in case it be not amended, condemned and rejected by the Church, as this of Ephesus and divers others were. And as for that mere Trick, of the Pope's Instruction, Approbation, or Confirmation, to preserve it from Error, or ratify it, that it hath not erred; the most ancient Church knew it not. He had his Suffrage, as other great patriarchs had; and his Vote was highly esteemed, not only for his place, but for worth too, as Popes were then: But that the whole Council depended upon him, and his confirmation, was then unknown, and I verily think, at this day not believed by yourselves. 5. Fiftly, it must be considered, If a General Council may err, Who shall judge it? S. Augustine is at a Ibid. priora à posterioribus, Nothing sure, that is less than a General Council. Why, but this yet lays all open to uncertainties, and makes way for a Whirlwind of a private spirit, to ruffle the Church. No, neither of these. First, all is not open to Uncertainties: For General Counsels, lawfully called and ordered, and lawfully proceeding, are a great and an awful Representation, and cannot err in matters of Faith, if they keep themselves to God's Rule, and attempt not to make a new of their own; and are with all submission to be observed by every Christian, where Scripture or evident Demonstration come not against it. Nor doth it make way for the Whirlwind of a private spirit: For private spirits are too giddy to rest upon Scripture, and too heady and shallow to be acquainted with demonstrative Arguments. And it were happy for the Church, if she might never be troubled with private spirits, till they brought such Arguments. I know this is hotly objected against a Praefat. p. 29. Hooker: The b Dialogus dict' Deus & Rex. Author calls him a c Cordatus Protestans. wise Protestant, yet turns thus upon him: If a Council must yield to a demonstrative proof, Who shall judge whether the Argument that is brought, be a Demonstration, or not? For every man that will kick against the Church, will say the Scripture he urges is evident, and his Reason a Demonstration. And what is this, but to leave all to the wildness of a private spirit? Can any ingenuous man read this passage in Hooker, and dream of a private spirit? For to the Question, Who shall judge? Hooker answers, as if it had been then made, d Praef. p. 29. An Argument necessary and demonstrative, is such (saith he) as being proposed to any man, and understood, the mind cannot choose but inwardly assent unto it. So, it is not enough to think or say it is demonstrative. The light then of a Demonstrative Argument, is the evidence which itself hath in itself to all that understand it. Well, but because all understand it not, If a Quarrel be made, who shall decide it? No question, but a General Council, not a private spirit: first, in the intent of the Author; for Hooker in all that discourse makes the Sentence of the Council e Praef. p. 28. binding: and therefore that is made judge, not a private spirit. And then for the judge of the Argument, it is as plain: For if it be evident to any man, then to so many learned men as are in a Council doubtless: And if they cannot but assent, it is hard to think them so impious, that they will define against it. And if that which is evident to any man, is not evident to such a grave Assembly, it is no Demonstration, and the producers of it ought to rest, and not to trouble the Church. Nor is this hooker's alone, nor is it newly thought on by us: It is a ground in Nature, which Grace doth ever set right, never undermine. And S. Augustine f 2. De Bapt. cont. Don. cap. 4. hath it twice in one Chapter, That S. Cyprian and that Council at Carthage would have presently yielded to any one that would g Vni verum dicenti, & demonstranti. demonstrate Truth. Nay, it is a Rule with h Cont. Fund. c. 4. him, Consent of Nations, Authority confirmed by Miracles and Antiquity, S. Peter's Chair, and Succession from it, Motives to keep him in the Catholic Church, must not hold him against Demonstration of Truth; i Quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur, ut in dubium venire non potest, praeponenda est omnib' illis reb' quib' in Catholica teneor: Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Euangelio. Ib. c. 5. which if it be so clearly monstrated, that it cannot come into doubt, it is to be preferred before all those things, by which a man is held in the Catholic Church. Therefore an evident Scripture, or Demonstration of Truth, must take place every where; but where these cannot be had, there must be submission to Authority. And doth not Bellarmine himself grant this? For speaking of Counsels, he delivers this Proposition, That Inferiors may not judge whether their Superiors (and that in a Council) do proceed lawfully, or not. But then having bethought himself, that Inferiors at all times, and in all causes, are not so to be cast off, he adds this Exception, a Lib. 2. de Concil. c. 8. nisi manifestissimè conster intcllerabilem Errorem committi. Unless it manifestly appear, that an intolerable Error be committed. So then, if such an Error be, and be manifest, Inferiors may do their duty, and a Council must yield; unless you will accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a private spirit; for neither doth he express who shall judge whether the Error be intolerable. This will not down with you, but the Definition of a General Council is and must be infallible. Your fellows tell us (and you can affirm no more) That the voice of the Church determining in Council, is not b Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. Ar. 1. Humane, but Divine: That is well; Divine, then sure infallible. Yea, but the Proposition sticks in the throat of them that would utter it. It is not Divine simply, but in a c Divina suo modo. Ibid. manner Divine. Why but then sure not infallible, because it may speak loudest in that manner in which it is not Divine. Nay more: The Church (forsooth) is an infallible Foundation of Faith, d In altiori genere, viz. in genere causae efficientis, atque adeò aliqua ex parte formalis. Ib. q. 4. Ar. 3. in a higher kind than the Scripture: For the Scripture is but a Foundation in testimony, and matter to be believed; but the Church as the efficient cause of Faith, and in some sort the very formal. Is not this Blasphemy? Doth not this knock against all evidence of Truth, and his own grounds, that says it? Against all evidence of Truth: For in all ages, all men that once admitted the Scripture to be the Word of God (as all Christians do) do with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible. But all men have not so judged of the Church's Definitions, though they have in greatest obedience submitted to them. And against his own grounds, that says it: For the Scripture is absolutely and every way Divine; the Church's Definition is but suo modo, in a sort or manner Divine. But that which is but in a sort, can never be a Foundation in a higher degree, than that which is absolute, and every way such: Therefore neither can the Definition of the Church be so infallible as the Scripture; much less in altiori genere, in a higher kind than the Scripture. But because, when all other things fail, you fly to this, That the Church's Definition in a General Council, is by Inspiration, and so Divine and infallible; my haste shall not carry me from a little Consideration of that too. 6. Sixtly then, If the Definition of a General Council be infallible, than the infallibility of it is either in the Conclusion, and in the Means that prove it; or in the Conclusion, not the Means; or in the Means, not the Conclusion. But it is infallible in none of these. Not in the first, The Conclusion, and the Means: For there are diverse deliberations in General Counsels, where the Conclusion is Catholic, but the Means by which they prove it, not firm; therefore not infallible. Not in the second, The Conclusion, and not the Means: For the Conclusion must follow the nature of the premises, or Principles out of which it is deduced; therefore if they be sometimes uncertain, as is proved before, the Conclusion cannot be infallible. Not in the third, The Means, and not the Conclusion: For that cannot but be true and necessary, if the Means be so. And this I am sure you will never grant; because if you should, you must deny the infallibility which you seek to establish. To this (for I confess the Argument is old, but can never be worn out, nor shifted off) your great Master a Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. Stapleton (who is miserably hampered in it, and indeed so are ye all) answers, That the infallibility of a Council is in the second course; that is, It is infallible in the Conclusion, though it be uncertain and fallible in the Means and proof of it. How comes this to pass? It is a thing altogether unknown in Nature, and Art too, That fallible Principles can either father or mother, beget or bring forth an infallible Conclusion. Well, that is granted in Nature, and in all Argumentation, that causes knowledge. But we shall have Reasons for it: b Ib. Not. 4. First, because the Church is discursive, and uses the weights and moments of Reason in the Means; but is Prophetical, and depends upon immediate Revelation from the Spirit of God, in delivering the Conclusion. It is but the making of this appear, and all Controversy is at an end. Well, I will not discourse here, to what end there is any use of Means, if the Conclusion be Prophetical, which yet is justly urged; for no good cause can be assigned of it. If it be Prophetical in the Conclusion (I speak still of the present Church; for that which included the Apostles, which had the Spirit of Prophecy, and immediate Revelation, was ever prophetic in the Definition) Then since it delivers the Conclusion not according to Nature and Art, that is, out of Principles which can bear it, there must be some supernatural Authority which must deliver this Truth: That (say I) must be the Scripture: For if you fly to immediate Revelation now, the Enthusiasm must be yours. But the Scriptures which are brought, in the very Exposition of all the Primitive Church, neither say it, nor enforce it: Therefore Scripture warrants not your Prophecy in the Conclusion. I know no other thing can warrant it. If you think the Tradition of the Church can, make the World beholding to you. Produce any Father of the Church, that says, this is an universal Tradition of the Church, That her Definitions in a General Council are Prophetical, and by immediate Revelation. Produce any one Father, that says it of his own authority, That he thinks so: Nay, make it appear, that ever any Prophet, in that which he delivered from God as infallible Truth, was ever discursive at all in the Means: Nay, make it but probable in the ordinary course of Prophecy (and I hope you go no higher, nor will I offer, at God's absolute Power) That that which is discursive in the Means, can be Prophetic in the Conclusion, and you shall be my great Apollo for ever. In the mean time, I have learned this from a Propherae audiebant à Deo interiùs inspirante. Thom. 2. 2. q. 5. A. 1. ad 3. yours, That all Prophecy is by Vision, Inspiration, etc. and that no Vision admits discourse: That all Prophecy is an Illumination, not always present, but when the Word of the b Venit ad me Verbum Domini. Lord came to them, and that was not by discourse. And yet you c Stapl. Rel. Cont. 4. q. 2. p. 473. say again, That this Prophetic infallibility of the Church is not gotten without study and Industry. You should do well to tell us too, why God would put his Church to study for the Spirit of Prophecy, which never any particular Prophet was put unto. d Propheticam revelationem nullo pacto haberi 〈◊〉, vel open naturae, vel study, Contra Auicennam, Algazalem, Aueroem, etc. Fran. Picus, 2. Prenot. c. 4. And whosoever shall study for it, shall do itin vain, since Prophecy is e 1. Cor. 12.10. a Gift, and can never be an acquired Habit. And there is somewhat in it, that Bellarmine, in all his Dispute for the Authority of General Counsels, dares not come at this Rock. f L. 2. de Conc. c. 12. He prefers the Conclusion, and the Canon, before the Acts and the deliberations of Counsels, and so do we: but I do not remember, that ever he speaks out, That the Conclusion is delivered by Prophecy, or Revelation. Sure he sounded the Shore, and found danger here. He did sound it: For a little before he speaks plainly (Would his bad cause let him be constant?) g Concilia non habent, neque scribunt immediatas revelationes etc. sed deducunt, etc. Counsels do deduce their Conclusions. What? from Inspiration? No: But out of the Word of God, and that per ratiocinationem, by Argumentation: Neither have they, nor do they write any immediate Revelations. The second Reason why he will have it prophetic in the Conclusion, is, h Stapl. ib. p 474. Because that which is determined by the Church, is matter of Faith, not of Knowledge: And that therefore the Church proposing it to be believed, though it use Means, yet it stands not upon Art, or Means, or Argument, but the Revelation of the Holy Ghost: Else when we embrace the Conclusion proposed, it should not be an Assent of Faith, but a Habit of Knowledge. This for the first part (That the Church uses the Means, but follows them not) is all one in substance with the former Reason. And for the latter part, That then our admitting the Decree ofa Council, would be no Assent of Faith, but a Habit of Knowledge; What great inconvenience is there, if it be granted? For I think it is undoubted Truth, That one and the same Conclusion may be Faith to the Believer, that cannot prove, and Knowledge to the Learned, that can. And S. Augustine a Cont. Fund. c. 4. , I am sure in regard of one and the same thing, even this the very Wisdom of the Church, in her Doctrine, ascribes Understanding to one sort of men, and Belief to another weaker sort. And b Th. p. 1. q. 2. a. 2. ad 1. Nihil prohibet illud quod secundum se demonstrabile est & scibile, 〈◊〉 aliquo accipi ut Credibile qui 〈◊〉 non capit. Thomas goes with him. And for further satisfaction, if not of you, of others, this may be considered too: Man lost by sin the Integrity of his Nature, and cannot have Light enough to see the way to Heaven, but by Grace. This Grace was first merited, after given by Christ. This Grace is first kindled in Faith; by which, if we agree not to some supernatural Principles, which no Reason can demonstrate simply, we can never see our way. But this Light, when it hath made Reason submit itself, clears the Eye of Reason, it never puts it out. In which sense it may be is that of c Lib. 3. 〈◊〉 & ubique diffusa. Optatus, That the very Catholic Church itself is reasonable, as well as diffused every where. By which Reason enlightened (which is stronger than Reason) the Church in all Ages hath been able either to convert, or convince, or d Omnia genera ingeniorum subdita Scripturae. S. Aug. lib. 22. cont. Faust. 〈◊〉. 96. stop the mouths at least of Philosophers, and the great men of Reason, in the very point of Faith, where it is at highest. To the present occasion then. The first, immediate, Fundamental Points of Faith, without which there is no salvation; they, as they cannot be proved by Reason, so neither need they be determined by any Council, nor ever were they attempted, they are so plain set down in the Scripture. If about the sense and true meaning of these, or necessary deduction out of these prime Articles of Faith, General Counsels determine any thing, as they have done in Nice, and the rest; there is no inconuevience, that one and the same Canon of the Council should be believed, as it reflects upon the Articles and Grounds indemonstrable; e Almain. 3. D. 24. q. 1. and yet known to the Learned, by the Means and Proof by which that deduction is vouched and made good. And again, the Conclusion of a Council; suppose that in Nice, about the Consubstantiality of Christ with the Father, in itself considered, is or may be indemonstrable by Reason; There I believe and assent in Faith; but the same Conclusion f Concilium Nicaenun 〈◊〉 Conclusionem ex Scriptures. Bellar. 2. 〈◊〉 Conc. c. 12. , if you give me the ground of Scripture, and the Creed, (and somewhat must be supposed in all, whether Faith, or Knowledge) is demonstrable by natural Reason against any Arrian in the World. And if it be demonstrable, I may know it, and have a habit of it. And what inconvenience in this? For the weaker sort of Christians, which cannot deduce when they have the Principle granted, they are to rest upon the Definition only, and their assent is mere Faith: yea, and the Learned too, where there is not a Demonstration evident to them, assent by Faith only, and not by Knowledge. And what inconvenience in this? Nay, the necessity of Nature is such, that these Principles once given, the understanding of man cannot rest, but it must be thus. And the a 1. S. Pet. 3.15. Apostle would never have required a man to be able to give a reason and an account of the Hope that is in him, if he might not be able to know his account; or have lawful interest to give it, when he knew it, without preiudicing his Faith by his Knowledge. And suppose exact Knowledge and mere Belief cannot stand together in the same person, in regard of the same thing, by the same means, yet that doth not make void this Truth. For where is that exact Knowledge, or in whom, that must not merely, in points of Faith, believe the Article or Ground upon which they rest? But when that is once believed, it can demonstrate many things from it. And Definitions of Counsels are not Principia Fidei, Principles of Faith, but Deductions from them. 7. And now because you ask, Wherein we are nearer to Unity by a Council, if a Council may err? Besides the Answer given, I promised to consider which Opinion was most agreeable with the Church, which most able to preserve or reduce Christian Peace; the Roman, That a Council cannot err; orthe Protestants, That it can. And this I propose, not as a Rule, but leave the Christian World to consider of it, as I do. 1. First then I consider, Whether in those places of Scripture before mentioned, or other, there be promised and performed to the present Church an absolute infallibility? or whether such an infallibility will notserue the turn, as b Rel. Cont. 4. q. 2. p. 468. Stapleton, after much wriggling, is forced to acknowledge? One not everieway exact: because it is enough, if the Church do diligently insist upon that which was once received: and there is not need of so great certainty, to open and explicate that which lies hid in the Seed of Faith sown, and deduce from it, as to seek out and teach that which was altogether unknown. And if this be so, then sure the Church of the Apostles required guidance by a greater degree of infallibility, than the present Church; which if it follow the Scripture, is infallible enough, though it hath not the same degree of certainty which the Apostles had, and the Scripture hath. Nor can I tell what to make of Bellarmine, that in a whole Chapter disputes 〈◊〉 Prerogatives, in certainty of Truth a L. 2. 〈◊〉 Conc. c. 12. , that the Scripture hath above a Council; and at last concludes, That they may be said to be equally certain in infallible Truth. 2. The next thing I consider, is: Suppose this not Exact, but congruous infallibility in the Church; Is it not residing according to power and right of Authority in the whole Church, and in a General Council, only by power b Sub autoritate Generalis Concilij. 〈◊〉. Doct. Fid. lib. 2. A. 2. c. 20. deputed, with Mandate to determine? The places of Scripture, with Expositions of the Fathers upon them, make me apt to believe this. S. Peter (saith S. Augustine c Petrus personam 〈◊〉 Catholicae sustinet, & huic datae sunt claues quum Petro datae. De Agon. Chr. c. 30. ) did not receive the Keys of the Church, but in the person of the Church. Now suppose the Key of Doctrine be to let in Truth, and shut out Error; and suppose the Key rightly used, infallible in this: yet this infallibility is primely in the Church; in whose person, not strictly in his own, S. Peter received the Keys. Here Stapleton lays cross my way again. He would thrust me out of this Consideration. d 〈◊〉. Cont. 6. q. 3 A. 5. Sed propter Primatum quem gerebat Ecclesiae: ideoque etsi finaliter Ecclesia accepit, tamen formaliter Petrus accepit. He grants, that S. Peter received these Keys indeed, and in the person of the Church; but that was because he was Primate of the Church: 〈◊〉 therefore the Church received the Keys finally, but S. Peter formally: that is (if I mistake him not) S. Peter for himself and his Successors, received the Keys in his own Right; but to this end, to benefit the Church, of which he was made Pastor. But I am in a Consideration, and I would have this considered, where it is ever read, That to receive a thing in the person of another, is only meant finally to receive it, that is, to his good, and not in his right. I should think, he that receives any thing in the person of another, receives it indeed to his good, and to his use, but in his right too: And that the primary and formal right is not in the receiver, but in him whose person he sustains, while he receives it. This stumbling-blocke than is nothing; and in my Consideration it stands still, That the Church in general received the Keys, and all Power signified by them, and by the assistance of God's Spirit may be able to use them, and perhaps to open and shut in some things infallibly, when the Pope and a General Council too (forgetting both her and her Rule, the Scripture) are to seek how to turn these Keys in their Wards. 3. The third thing I consider, is: Suppose in the whole Catholic Church Militant, an absolute infallibility in the prime Foundations of Faith, absolutely necessary to salvation; and that this power of not erring so, is not communicable to a General Council, which represents it, but that the Council is subject to error: This supposition doth not only preserve that which you desire in the Church, an Infallibility; but it meets with all inconveniences, which usually have done, and do perplex the Church. And here is still a remedy for all things: For if private respects, if a Many of these were potent at Ariminum, and Seleucia. Bandies in a Faction, if power and favour of some parties, if weakness of them which have the managing, if any mixture of State-Councels, if any departure from the Rule of the Word of God, if any thing else sway and wrinch the Council; b Determinationibus quae à Concilio, vel Pontifice summo fiunt, super iis 〈◊〉 quae substantiam fidei concernunt, necessario credendum est, quod dum universalis Ecclesia non reclamet. Fr. Pic. Mirand. Theor. 8. the whole Church, upon evidence found in express Scripture, or demonstration of this miscarriage, hath power to represent herself in another Body, or Council, and to take order for what was amiss, either practised or concluded. So here is a means, without infringing any lawful Authority of the Church, to preserve or reduce Unity, and yet grant, as the B. did, and as the c Artic. 21. Church of England doth, That a General Council may err. And this course the Church took, did call and represent herself in a new Council, and define against the Heretical Conclusions of the former: as in the case at Ariminum, and the second of Ephesus, is evident. 4. The next thing I consider, is: Suppose a General Council infallible in all things which are of Faith: If it prove not so, but that an Error in the Faith be concluded; the same erring Opinion that makes it think itself infallible, makes the Error of it seem irrevocable. And when Truth (which lay hid) shall be brought to light, the Church (who was lulled asleep by the Opinion of Infallibility, is left open to all manner of Distractions, as it appears at this day. And that a Council may err (besides all other instances, which are not few) appears by that Error of the Council of d Sess. 13. Constance. And one instance is enough to overthrow a General, be it a Council. e S. Matth. 26. 1. Cor. 11. 23. Christ instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Blood in both kinds. To break Christ's Institution, is a damnable Error, and so confessed by f Return of untruths upon M. jewel, Ar. 2. Stapleton. The Council is bold, and defines peremptorily, That to communicate in both kinds, is not necessary, with a Non obstante to the Institution of Christ. Consider with me, Is this an Error, or not? g 4. de Eucharist. c. 26. Bellarmine, and Stapleton, and you too, say it is not; because to receive under both kinds, is not by Divine Right. No? no sure. For it was not Christ's h Bell. 〈◊〉. Precept, but his Example. Why, but I had thought, Christ's Institution of a Sacrament had been more than his Example only, and as binding for the Necessaries of a Sacrament, the Matter and Form, as a Precept: Therefore speak out, and deny it to be Christ's Institution, or else grant with Stapleton, It is a damnable Error to go against it. If you can prove, that Christ's Institution is not as binding to us as a Precept (which you shall never be able) take the Precept with it, a S. Matth. 26. 1. Cor. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in Liturg. S. Chrysoft. Drink ye All of this: which though you shift as you can, yet you can never make it other than it is, A Binding Precept. But Bellarmine hath yet one better Device than this, to save the Council. He saith it is a mere Calumny, and that the Council hath no such thing; That the Non obstante hath no reference to Receiving under both kinds, but to the time of Receiving it, after Supper; in which the Council saith, the Custom of the Church is to be observed Non obstante, notwithstanding Christ's Example. How foul Bellarmine is in this, must appear by the words of the Council, which are these: b Licet Christus post Coenam instituerit, & suis Discipulis administraverit sub utraque specie Panis & Vini hoc venerabile Sacramentum, tamen hoc Non obstante, non debet confici post Coenam, nec recipi nisi à ieiunis. (Here Bellarmine 〈◊〉, and goes no further, but the Council goes on.) Et similiter quòd licet in Primitiva Ecclesia Sacramenta reciperentur sub utra que specie à Fidelibus, tamen haec Consuetudo, ut à Laicis sub specie Panis tantum suscipiatur, habenda est pro Lege, quam non licet reprobare: Et asserere hanc illicitam esse, est Erroneum. Et pertinaciter asserentes sunt 〈◊〉 tanquam Haeretici. Sess. 13. Though Christ instituted this venerable Sacrament, and gave it his Disciples after Supper, under both kinds of Bread and Wine, yet Non obstante, notwithstanding this, it ought not to be consecrated after Supper; nor received, but fasting. And likewise, that though in the Primitive Church this Sacrament was received by the faithful under both kinds; yet this Custom, that it should be received by Laymen only under the kind of Bread, is to be held for a Law, which may not be refused. And to say this is an unlawful Custom of Receiving under one kind, is erroneous; and they which persist in saying so, are to be punished and driven out as Heretics. Now, where is here any slander of the Council? The words are plain, and the Non obstante must necessarily (for aught I can yet see) be referred to both Clauses in the words following, because both Clauses went before it, and hath as much force against Receiving under both kinds, as against Receiving after Supper. Yea, and the after-words of the Council couple both together, in this reference: for it follows, Et similiter, And so likewise, that though in the Primitive Church, etc. And a man, by the Definition of this Council, may be an Heretic, for standing to Christ's Institution, in the very matter of the Sacrament: And the Church's Law for One kind may not be refused, but Christ's Institution under Both kinds may. And yet this Council did not err: No; take heed of it. But your Opinion is yet more unreasonable than this: For consider any Body Collective, be it more or less universal, whensoever it assembles itself, Did it ever give more power to the Representing Body of it, than binding power upon all particulars, and itself too? And did it ever give this power any otherwise, than with this Reservation in Nature, That it would call again, and reform, yea, and if need were, abrogate any Law, or Ordinance, upon just cause made evident to it. And this Power, no Body Collective, Ecclesiastical, or Civil, can put out of itself, or give away to a Parliament, or Council, or call it what you will, that represents it: And in my Consideration, it holds strongest in the Church. For a Council hath power to order, settle, and define Differences arisen concerning the Faith. This Power the Council hath not by any immediate Institution from Christ, but it was prudently taken up in the Church, from the a Act. 15. In Novo Testamento exemplum celebrationis Conciliorum ab Apostolis habemus, etc. job. de 〈◊〉, sum. de Ecclesia, l. 3. c. 2. Apostles Example. So that to hold Counsels to this end, is apparent Apostolical Tradition written: but the Power which Counsels so held, have, is from the whole Catholic Church, whose members they are; and the Church's Power, from God. And b This is more reasonable a great deal than that of Bel. 〈◊〉. de Con. cap. 18. Pontificem non posse se subijcere sententiae coactivae Conciliorum. this Power the Church cannot further give away to a General Council, than that the Decrees of it shall bind all particulars, and itself; but not bind the Church from calling again, and in the after calls upon just cause to order, yea, and if need be, to abrogate former Acts; I say, upon just cause. For if the Council be lawfully called, and proceed orderly, and conclude according to the Rule, the Scripture; the whole Church cannot but approve the Council, and then the Definitions of it can never be questioned after. And the Power of the Church hath no wrong in this, so long as no Power but her own may meddle, or offer to infringe any Definition of hers, made in her representative Body, a lawful General Council. And certain it is, no Power but her own may do this. Nor doth this open any gap to private spirits. For all Decisions in such a Council, are binding: And because the whole Church can meet no other way, the Council shall remain the Supreme, external, Living, Temporary, Ecclesiastical judge of all Controversies. Only the whole Church, and she alone, hath power, when Scripture or Demonstration is found, and peaceably tendered to her, to represent herself again in a new Council, and in it to order what was amiss. Nay, your Opinion is yet more unreasonable. For you do not only make the Definition of a General Council, but the Sentence of the Pope, infallible; nay, more infallible than it. For any General Council may err with you, if the Pope confirm it not. So belike, this Infallibility rests not in the Representative Body, the Council, nor in the whole Body, the Church; but in your Head of the Church, the Pope of Rome. Now the B. may ask you, To what end such a trouble, for a General Council? Or wherein are we nearer to Unity, if the Pope confirm it not? You answer (though not in the Conference, yet elsewhere) That the Pope errs not, especially 〈◊〉 Sentence in a General Council. And why especially? Doth the deliberation of a Council help any thing to the Conclusion? Surely no: for you hold the Conclusion Prophetical, the means fallible; and fallible Deliberations cannot advance to a Prophetic Conclusion. And just as the Council is in Stapletons' judgement, for the Definition and the Proofs; so is the Pope in the judgement of a 〈◊〉, lib. 6. de Locis, cap. 8. §. & quidem in. Melch Canus, and them which followed him, Prophetical in the Conclusion. The Council than is called but only in effect, to hear the Pope give his Sentence in more State. Else what means this of b Rel. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. & ibid. Quià ad compescendos importunos Haereticos, Concilij Generalis Definitio illustrior est, etc. & vulgo hominum magis satisfacit. Stapleton: The Pope, by a Council joined unto him, acquires no new Power, or Authority, or certainty in judging, no more than a Head is the wiser, by joining the offices of the rest of the members to it, than it is without them? Or this of c 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Bellarmine: That all the firmness and infallibility of a General Council is only from the Pope, not partly from the Pope, and partly from the Council? So belike the Presence is necessary, not the Assistance: Which Opinion is the most groundless, and worthless, that ever offered to take possession of the Christian Church. And I am persuaded many learned men among yourselves, scorn it at the very heart. You profess after, That you hold nothing against your Conscience. I must ever wonder much, how that can be true, since you hold this of the Pope's Infallibility, especially by being Prophetical in the Conclusion. If this be true, Why do you not lay all your strength together, all of your whole Society, and make this one Proposition evident? All Controversies about matter of Faith are ended, and without any great trouble to the Christian World, if you can make this good. Till then, this shame will follow you infallibly, and eternally, That you should make the Pope, a mere man, Principium Fidei, a Principle of Faith; and make the mouth of Christ's Vicar, sole judge both of his Word, be it never so manifest, and of his Church, be she never so learned, and careful of his Truth. The Conference grows to an end, and I must meet it again, ere we part: For you say, F. After this, we all rising (the doubting Person) asked the B. Whether she might be saved in the Roman Faith? He answered, She might. B. What? Not one Answer perfectly related? The Bishops Answer to this was general, for the ignorant, that could not discern the Errors of that Church; so they held the Foundation, and conformed themselves to a Religious life. But why do you not speak out, what the B. added in this particular? That it must needs go harder with the doubting party, even in point of Salvation; because the said party had been brought to understand very much in these controverted Causes of Religion. And a man that comes to know much, had need carefully bethink himself, that he oppose not known Truth, against the Church that made him a Christian. For Salvation may be in the Church of Rome, and yet they not find it, that make sure of it. F. I bade (the Person doubting) mark that. B. This Answer I am sure troubles not you. But it seems you would fain have it lay a Load of Envy upon the B. that you profess you bad the doubting party so carefully Mark that. Well, you bade the said person Mark that. For what? For some great matter? or for some new? Not for some new, sure. For the Protestants have ever been ready for Truth, and in Charity, to grant as much as might be: And therefore from the beginning, a Luther. lib. de 〈◊〉 arbitr. Mornay. Tract. de Ecclesia, c. 9 G. Abbot. nunc Archiepiscopus 〈◊〉. Answ. to Hill. ad Rat. 1. §. 30. & add Rat. 3. §. 5. Hooker, lib. 3. §. 1. & Conc. in Abac. 1. 4. Field, l. 3. c. 47. etc. 6. Though some of these put in some Exceptions. many learned men granted this. So that you need not have put such a serious Mark that, upon the speech of the B. as if none before him had, or none but he would speak it. And if your Mark that, were not for some new matter, was it for some great? Yes sure, it was. For what greater than Salvation? But then I pray Mark this too, That Might be saved, grants but a Possibility, no sure or safe way to Salvation. The Possibility I think cannot be denied the Ignorants especially, because they hold the Foundation, and survey not the Building: And the Foundation can deceive no man that rests upon it. But a secure way they cannot go, that hold with such corruptions, when they know them. Now whether it be wisdom in such a point as Salvation is, to forsake a Church, in the which the ground of Salvation is firm, to follow a Church in which it is possible one may be saved, but very probable one may do worse, if he look not well to the Foundation; judge ye: I am sure S. Augustine b 1 de Bap. cont. Don. c. 3. Graviter peccarent in rebus ad salutem animae pertinentibus, etc. 〈◊〉 solo quod certis incerta praeponerent. thought it was not, and judged it a great sin, in point of Salvation, for a man to prefer incerta certis, incertainties and naked possibilitiesbefore an evident and certain course. And you yourselves, in the point of condignity of Merit, write it and preach it boisterously to the people; but are content to die, renouncing the condignity of all your own Merits, and trust to Christ's. If you will not venture to die as you live, live and believe in time, as you mean to die. And one thing more, because you bid Mark this, let me remember to tell, for the benefit of others. Upon this very Point (That we acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saved) you, and your like, work upon the advantage of our Charity, and your own want of it, to abuse the weak. For thus (I am told) you work upon them: You see the Protestants (at least many of them) confess there may be Salvation in our Church; we absolutely deny there is Salvation in theirs: therefore it is safer to come to ours, than to stay in theirs; to be where almost all grant salvation, than where the greater part of the World deny it. This Argument is very prevailing with men that cannot weigh it; and with women especially, that are put in fear by violent (though causeless) denying Heaven unto them. But it is stronger in the cunning, than the true force of it. For all Arguments are very moving, that lay their ground upon the Adversary's Confession; especially, if it be confessed and avouched to be true. But if you would speak truly, and say, Many Protestants indeed confess, there is Salvation possible to be attained in the Roman Church, but yet the Errors of that Church are so many (and some, such as weaken the Foundation) that it is very hard to go that way to Heaven, especially to them that have had the Truth manifested; the heart of this Argument were broken. Besides, the force of this Argument lies upon two things, one expressed, the other upon the By. First, That which is expressed, is, We and our Adversary's consent, That there is salvation to some in the Roman Church. What? would you have us as malicious (at least as rash) as yourselves are to us, and deny you so much as possibility of salvation? If we should, we might make you in some things strain for a Proof. But we have not so learned Christ, as either to return evil for evil in this heady course, or to deny Salvation to some ignorant silly Souls, whose humble, peaceable obedience, makes them safe among any part of men, that profess the Foundation, Christ. And therefore seek not to help our cause, by denying this comfort to silly Christians, as you most fiercely do, where you can come to work upon them. And this was an old Trick of the Donatists: For in the Point of Baptism (Whether that Church, or in the part of Donatus) they 〈◊〉 all to be baptised among them: Why? because both parts 〈◊〉, that 〈◊〉 was true 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉; which that peevish Sect most unjustly denied the sound part, as S. Augustine a Esse verò apud Donatistas Baptismum, & illi asserunt, & nos concedimus, etc. Lib. 1. de Bap. cont. Don. c. 3. delivers it. I would ask now, Had not they Orthodox Baptism among them, because the Donatists denied it injuriously? Or should the Orthodox, against Truth, have denied Baptism among the Donatists, to cry 〈◊〉 with them? Or that their Argument might not be the stronger, because both parts granted? But mark this; how far you run from all common Principles of Christian Peace, as well as Christian Truth, while you deny Salvation most unjustly to us, from which you are further off yourselves. Besides, if this were or could be made a concluding Argument, I pray why do not you believe with us in the Point of the Eucharist? For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England, That in the most blessed Sacrament, the worthy Receiver is by his b Spiritualis manducatio quod per animam fit, ad Christi carnem in Sacramento pertingit. Caiet. To. 2. Opusc. de Euchar. Tr. 2. c. 5. Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and Real Body and Blood of Christ, truly and really, and of all the benefits of his Passion. Your 〈◊〉 add a manner of this his presence, Transubstantiation, which many deny; and the Lutherans a manner of this presence, Consubstantiation, which more deny. If this Argument be good, then even for this consent, it is safer communicating with the Church of England, than with the Roman or Lutheran, because all agree in this Truth, not in any other Opinion. And therefore, if you will force the Argument, to make that the safest way of Salvation, which differing parts agree on; Why do you not yield to the force of the same Argument, in the 〈◊〉 of the Sacrament, one of the most immediate means of Salvation, where not only the most, but all agree? Secondly, The other upon the By, which helpesthiss Argument, is your continual poor Outcry against us, That we cannot be saved, because we are 〈◊〉 of the Church. Sure if I thoughtis were out, I would get in as fast as I could. But what do you mean by Out of the Church? Sure, out of the Roman Church. Why, but the Roman Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholic Church, which is spread over the face of the Earth. Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwells, but Rome itself, as well as other particular Churches, dwells in this great Universal House; unless you will shut up the Church in Rome, as the Donatists did in Africa. I come a little lower. Rome, and other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, are in this a And Daughter Zion was God's own 〈◊〉 of old, of the Church. Isai. 1. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Hyppol. Orat. de Consume. Mundi. Et omnis Ecclesia Virgo appellata est. S. Aug. Tr. 13. in S. joh. 〈◊〉, to whom (〈◊〉 Christ) the care of the Household is committed by God the Father, and the Catholic Church, the Mother, of 〈◊〉 Christians. Rome, as an elder Sister, had a great 〈◊〉 committed unto her in and from the prime times of the Church, and to her Bishop in her: but at this time (to 〈◊〉 pass many 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 formerly been in the House) England, and some other Sisters of hers, are fallen out in the House. What then? Will the Father and the Mother, God and the Church, 〈◊〉 one Child out, because another is angry with it? Or when did Christ give that Power to the Elder Sister, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and her 〈◊〉, the Bishop there, should thrust out what Child 〈◊〉 pleased? Especially when she herself is 〈◊〉 accused to have given the offence, that is taken in the House? Or will not both Father and Mother be sharper to her for this unjust and unnatural usage of her younger Sisters, but their 〈◊〉 Children? Nay, is it not the next way to make them 〈◊〉 her out of doors, that is so 〈◊〉 to the rest? It is well for all Christian men, and Churches, that the Father and Mother of them are 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉, as some would have them. And Salvation need not be feared of any 〈◊〉 Child, 〈◊〉 outing from the Church; because this Elder 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are discovered in the House, and 〈◊〉 grown 〈◊〉 for it to them that complained. But as Children cry when they are awaked, so do you, and 〈◊〉 with all that come 〈◊〉 you. And b Return of untruths upon M. jewel, Ar. 4. fol. 67. 〈◊〉 confesses, That ye were in 〈◊〉 dead sleep, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much 〈◊〉, when the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you. Now if you can prove, that Rome is 〈◊〉 the Catholic Church itself (as you commonly call it) speak out and 〈◊〉 it. In the mean time you may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too, if you will; and it seems you do: for here you forget 〈◊〉 what the B. said to you. 〈◊〉. The doubting Person (said the B. to me) may be better saved in it, than you. B. Rom. 14.4. 〈◊〉 (that is, easier) than you; than 〈◊〉 man, that knows so much of Truth, and opposes against it, as you and your 〈◊〉 do. How far you know Truth, other men may judge by your proofs, and causes of Knowledge; but how 〈◊〉 you oppose it when it is known, that is within, and no man can know, but God and yourselves. Howsoever, where the Foundation is but held, there for a Caeteram turbam non intelligendi vivacitas sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit. S. August. cont. Fund. c. 4. ordinary men, it is not the 〈◊〉 of understanding, but the simplicity of believing, that makes them safe. For Saint Augustive speaks there of men in the Church; and no man can be simply said to be out of the visible Church, that is baptised, and holds the Foundation. And as it is the simplicity of believing, that makes them safe, yea safest; so is it sometimes a quickness of understanding; that loving itself and some by respects too well, makes men take up an unsafe way about the Faith. So that there is no question, but many were saved in corrupted times of the Church, when their b Ipsis Magistris pereuntibus: nisi fortè ante mortem resipuerint. Luth. de Seru. Arb. Leaders, unless they repented before death, were lost. And Saint Augustine's c De vtil. Cred. c. 1. Si mihi videretur unus & idem Haereticus & Haereticis credens homo, etc. Rule will be true, That in all Corruptions of the Church, there will ever be a difference between an Heretic and a plain wellmeaning man, that is misled, and believes an Heretic. I pray you Mark this, and so by God's grace will I. For our Reckoning will be heavier, if we misled on eytherside, than theirs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 us. But I see I must look to myself, for you are secure: For, F. Dr White (said I) hath secured me, that none of our Errors be damnable, so long as we hold them not against our Conscience. And I hold none against my Conscience. B. It seems then you have two Securities, Dr Whites Assertion, and your Conscience. What Assurance Dr White 〈◊〉 you, I cannot tell of myself; nor as things stand, may I rest upon your Relation: It may be you use him no better than you do the Bishop. And sure it is so: For I have since spoken with Dr White, and he avows this, and no other Answer. He was asked in the conferense between you, Whether Popish Errors were Fundamental? To 〈◊〉 he gave 〈◊〉, by distinction of the persons which held and professed the Errors: namely, That the Errors were Fundamental, reductive, by a Reducement, if they which embraced them, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adhere to them, having sufficient 〈◊〉 to be better informed: nay further, that they were materially, and in the very kind and nature of them, Leaven, Dross, Hay, and Stubble. Yet he thought 1. Cor. 3.12. withal, that such as were misled by Education, or long Custom, or over-valuing the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Church, and did in 〈◊〉 of heart embrace them, might by their general 〈◊〉, and Faith in the Merit of Christ, attended with Charity 〈◊〉 other Virtues, find mercy at God's hands. But that he should say Signanter, and expressly, That none either of yours, or your fellow's 〈◊〉, were damnable, so long as you hold them not against Conscience; that he utterly disavows. You delivered nothing, to 〈◊〉 such a Confession from him. And for yourself, he could observe but small love of Truth, few signs of Grace in you (as he tells me:) Yet he will not presume to judge you, or your Salvation; it is the Word of Christ that must judge you, as the S. joh. 12.48. latter Day. For your Conscience, you are the happier in your Error, that you hold nothing against it; especially, if you speak not against it, while you say so. But this no man can know, but your Conscience: For no man knows the thoughts of a man, 1. Cor. 2. 11. but the spirit of a man that is within him; to which I leave you. But yet you leave not: For you tell me, F. The (doubting party) asked, Whether she might be saved in the Protestants Faith? Upon 〈◊〉 Soul (said the B.) you may. Upon my Soul (said I) there is but one saving Faith, and that is the Roman. B. So (it seems) the B. was confident for the Faith professed in the Church of England; else he would not have taken the Salvation of another upon his Soul. And sure he had reason of his Confidence. For to believe the Scripture, and the Creeds; to believe these in the sense of the ancient Primitive Church; to receive the four great General Counsels, so much magnified by Antiquity; to believe all Points of Doctrine, generally received as Fundamental, in the Church of Christ; is a Faith, in which to live and die, cannot but give Salvation. And therefore the B. went upon a sure ground, in the adventure of his Soul upon that Faith. Besides, in all the Points of Doctrine that are controverted between us. I would fain see any one Point, maintained by the Church of England, that can be proved to depart from the Foundation. You have many dangerous Errors about it, in that which you call the Roman Faith. But there I leave you, to look to your own Soul, and theirs whom you seduce. Yet this is true too, That there is but one saving Faith. But then every thing which you call De Fide, Of the Faith, because some Council or other hath defined it, is not such a breach from that one saving Faith, as that he which expressly believes it not, nay, as that he which believes the contrary, is excluded from Salvation. And a 3. De Eccl. Mil. c. 14. Bellarmine is forced to grant this, There are many things, de Fide, which are not absolutely necessary to Salvation. b Waldens'. Doct. Fid. l. 2. A. 2. §. 23. Therefore there is a Latitude in Faith, especially in reference to Salvation. To set a Bound to this, and strictly to define it, Just thus far you must believe in every particular, or incur Damnation, is no work for my Penne. These two things I am sure of: One, That your peremptory establishing of so many things, that are remote Deductions from the Foundation, hath with other Errors, lost the Peace and Unity of the Church; for which you will one day answer. And the other, That you are gone further from the Foundation of this one saving Faith, than can ever be proved we have done. But to conclude, you tell us, F. Upon this and the precedent Conferences, the Lady rested in judgement fully satisfied (as she told a confident friend) of the Truth of the Roman Churches Faith. Yet upon frailty, and fear to offend the King, she yielded to go to Church: For which, she was after very sorry, as some of her friends can testify. B. This is all personal. And how that Honourable Lady is settled in Conscience, how in judgement, I know not. This (I think) is made clear enough, That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences, could settle neither, unless in some that were settled, or setting before. As little do I know, what she told any Friend of the Roman Cause: No more, whether it were frailty, or fear, that made her yield to go to Church; nor how sorry she was for it; nor who can testify that sorrow. This I am sure of; If she repent, and God forgive her other sins, she will far more easily be able to answer for her coming to Church, than she will for the leaving of the Church of England, and following the Superstitions and Errors which the Roman Church hath added in point of Faith, and worship of God. I pray God give her Mercy, and all of you a Light of his Truth, and a Love to it first; that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Pope's boundless Ambition, and this most unchristian brainsick Device, That in all Controversies of the Faith he is infallible, and that by way of Inspiration and Prophecy, in the Conclusion which he gives. To due consideration of this, and God's Mercy in Christ, I leave you. FINIS.