1. COR. 8. 2. If any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he aught to know. ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Answer to the Admonition, against the Reply of T. C. BY JOHN WHITGIFT Doctor of Divinity. In the beginning are added these. 4. Tables. 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Reply. 2 Of Falsifications and Untruths. 3 Of matters handled at large. 4 A table general. If any man be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God. 1. Cor. 11. 16. ❀ Printed at London by Henry Binneman, for Humphrey toy. Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let us not be desirous of vainglory, provoking one another, envying one another. ¶ To the godly Reader. IT WERE BUT A NEEDLESS labour to make any particular recital of those points of doctrine which this Church of England at this day doth hold and maintain, for they be at large set out in sundry english books, and especially in the Apology of the Church of England, and the Defense of the same: summarily also collected together in the book of Articles agreed upon in the Convocation at London Anno. 1562. etc. this I dare boldly affirm, that all points of Religion necessary to salvation, and touching either the mystery of our redemption in christ, or the right use of the Sacraments, and true manner of worshipping God, are as purely and perfectly taught, and by public authority established in this Church of England at this day, as ever they were in any church since the Apostles time, or now be in any reform Church in the world: the which to be true, those that be learned (even among the myslikers of this present state) can not, nor will not deny. Likewise: that all Heresies, all corrupt doctrines, all superstitious and papistical opinions, have been, and be by the Prince and the Realm banished, by the learned Bishops and Preachers in word and in writing confuted, who is so blinded with malice, that he cannot see, or so froward and wilful that he will not confess? What shall wethens think of those men, that are so far from acknowledging this singular and unspeakable benefit proceeding from the mere mercy of God, so far from being thankful for the same, from desiring the continuance of it with hearty prayers, that by all means possible they seek rather to obscure it, and to deface it, because in certain accidental points they have not their fantasies and proper devices. If this be not to set themselves against God, and to trouble the peace of the Church for external things (which is schismatical) let the quiet and godly Christian, judge. How much better had it been for them to have proceeded in teaching necessary points of doctrine, and exhorting to obedience, to concord, to godly life and conversation, than thus with no small rejoicing of the wicked, great offence of the weak Gospelers, marvelous grief of the Queen's majesty, and other that have the care of government, frowardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church, trouble the happy peace of the common weal, and hazard the whole state of Religion, they shall one day (if not to late) well understand. Furthermore it behoveth all godly minds, that will not be carried away with rash and overhasty judgement in this controversy, to consider not only that that I have before spoken of the truth of doctrine publicly received and confirmed: but also circumspectly to weigh the circumstances of time, place, person, and the whole state of things, now in this Church and Realm of England: The regard whereof in mine opinion, must needs 'cause in all discrete heads a stay of judgement, in comparison that the things themselves barely considered, would do. The state of this Church of England at this day God be thanked, is not Heathenish, Turkish, or Papistical, in which condition many things might be done, that otherwise are not to be attempted: but it is the state of a church reform and by authority and consent settled, not only in truth of doctrine, as before is noted, but also in order of things external touching the government of the Church and administration of the Sacraments. Wherefore the controversy is not whether many of the things mentioned by the platformers, were fitly used in the Apostles time, or may now be well used in some places, yea or be conveniently used in sundry reform Churches at this day. For none of these branches are denied, neither do we take upon us (as we are slandered) either to blame or to condemn other Churches for such orders as they have received most fit for their estates. But this is the whole state of our controversy, when we of this Church, in these perilous days, do see that we have a great number of hollow hearts within this Realm that daily gape for alteration of Religion, and many mighty & great enemies abroad busily devising and working to bring the same to pass, and to overthrow the state both of religion and of the Realm: whether seeing we have a settled order in doctrine and government received and confirmed by law, it may stand with godly and Christian wisdom, (with disobedience to the Prince and law, and with the unquietness of the Church and offence of many consciences) to attempt so great alteration as this platform must needs bring, and that for matters external only, and with such eagerness and bitterness, that they deface and discredit the whole state of this Church with all the Preachers and Ecclesiastical governors of the same, as remaining in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities, and thereby fill the mouths of the adversaries with greater matter of obloquy to deface the gospel, than ever of themselves they had been able to devise. Surely I could never read, but that they that should so do, were rather to be esteemed troublesome and schismatical defacers, than zealous and godly reformers. I know that no Church can be so perfect in all points of external government and ceremonies, but that such as be disposed, may pick some occasion of quarreling thereat, though unjustly: therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit, nor to ready to follow contentious captains. For S. Paul sayeth: Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos etc. If any be contentious among you, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God. etc. Again, when any thing is amiss it must be considered whether the faults be in the things themselves, or in the people: for we may not with partial and corrupt judgement impute the faults of the people to the things, whether they be offices or ceremonies, for than should we continually be altering the state, and never stand steadfast in any kind of government: therefore in such cases we must seek to reform the abuses in men, we must not pull away the states and offices, or the things themselves because they be abused by some men. But to let this pass and come to the purpose: this Reply of T. C. (which is of some counted so notable a piece of work) consists of two false principles and rotten pillars: whereof the one is, that we must of necessity have the same kind of government that was in the Apostles time, and is expressed in the scriptures, and no other: the other is, that we may not in any wise, or in any consideration, retain in the Church any thing that hath been abused under the Pope: if these two posts be weak, yea rotten (as I have proved them to be, in this my Defense) then must the building of necessity fall. Touching the first, it is to be understanded, that there is a double government of the Church, the one spiritual, the other external: Christ only and none other by the operation of his spirit and direction of his word spiritually governeth his Church, and reigning in the conscienees of the faithful, guideth their minds in all matters of devotion, faith and holiness: and this is the spiritual kingdom of Christ, so much spoken of in the scriptures, and specially in the Prophets: of this kind of government I mean not. The external government hath both a substance and a matter about which it is occupied, and also a form to attain the same, consisting in certain offices and functions, and in the names and titles of them: the substance and matter of government, must in deed be taken out of the word of God, and consists in these points, that the word be truly taught, the sacraments rightly administered, virtue furthered, vice repressed, and the Church kept in quietness and order. The offices in the Church whereby this government is wrought, be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures, but in some points left to the discretion and liberty of the Church, to be disposed according to the state of times, places & people, as I have further declared in my Answer and Defense following. Of the second principle I have also spoken at large there, so that I shall not need to trouble the Reader any further in these matters. The proofs that T. C. useth in this his Reply are grounded only upon untrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures, vain and childish reasons, falsifying the authorities of Doctors & other writers, untruely ascribing that unto them, which they written not, as shall be evidently declared in this Defense, by the grace of God: and surely I have not red many books wherein so many gross untruths are to be found, or wherein there is so many manifest arguments uttered, to prove the ignorance of the author, and lack of reading ancient and learned writers. Touching his manner of writing I shall not need to say much, for any man of judgement, that readeth his book may easily perceive, with what haughtiness of mind, what contempt & disdain of others, in what slanderous and opprobrious manner it is written: how often doth he repeat M. Doctor, in contempt either of the degree, or of the person? 370. times is the least: what other speeches of disdain and reproach doth he utter? but I do nothing at all marvel at it, for I consider it hath been the usual practice of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist. the Church. It is true that S. Augustine sayeth, lib. 1. contra Donatist. cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur. None would make schisms, if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren. And again: An non est in schismate odium fraternum? quis hoc dixerit, cum & origo & pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia, nisi odium fraternum. Is there not hatred of brethren in schisms? who would say so? seeing that the beginning and continuance of schism proceedeth from no other cause, than from hatred of our brethren. I must therefore say with M. Zuinglius: Scio quibus convitijs & quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis. hic me exponam. I know to what reproaches and to how great rages of there's I make myself subject. And I will conclude with him. Quamuis miris convitijs nos perstringere, & Eodem. novis quotidie clamoribus morderenon des of'̄t etc. Although they maruelouselie slander us, and daily with new clamours, revile and backbite us, yet will I never leave of the defence of the truth before their contumacy be made known to all men. Who so peruseth such learned authors as had great experience of the like kind of men, he shall find that their especial grace both in speaking and writing, hath been in bitter invectives against other whom they have envy and hated for some special causes. M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he writeth before his book de Baptismo, speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus: Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota & perspecta est: qui cum his aliquando sermons contulerunt, quàm scilicet sit illorum oratio omni fell amarulentior. Their hypocritical humility is very well known to those which have had conference with them: how that their talk is more bitter than gall. And in his book de Baptismo, he earnestly protesteth that he never found any thing in them, quàm saturninam quandam & melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam. etc. and in his book against Balthasar he saith that by dispraising and reviling others, they seek to win credit unto themselves. How this quality agreeth with some of our men, and especially with the author of this Reply, I am content that other men judge. If I myself have in writing, and in this Defense spoken something more sharply, it must be imputed to mine infirmity, and yet am I thereunto greatly provoked: but herein as in many other matters, I submit myself to the judgement of those that have authority to judge, and of those that be learned: for I am content still to make this the foot of my song: Errare possum, haereticus esse nolo. To those that be in authority I only speak as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time, upon the like occasion: Quòd si hoc cuivis hominum impunè facere licebit, In Ecclesiast. ut quae privato suae rationis consilio adinuenit, in vulgus spergat, inconsulta, imò resistente etiam universa totius ecclesiae authoritate, brevi plus errorum, quàm fidelium & Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere. If it be lawful for every man to publish abroad among the people those things which he hath devised of his own head, before he hath consulted with the church, nay against the authority of the whole church, in short time we shall see more errors in the church, than there be faithful men and Christians. And again, Si enim boc permittamus ut capitosus quisque & Lib. de Baptis. malè feriatus bomo, mox ut nowm aliquid & insolens animo suo concepit. etc. If we suffer every hedie and brainless fellow, so soon as he hath conceived any new thing in his mind, to publish it abroad, gather disciples, and make a new sect, in short time we shall have so many sects and factions, that Christ which scarce with great pain and labour, is brought to unity in every church, should be divided again into many parts. Wherefore as you have singularelie and with great wisdom and labour, already restored the true religion of Christ, and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine: So likewise (as the same Zuinglius sayeth) in those perilous times, wherein Satan seeketh so busily to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo. entrap us (so that with new contentions about external things, he goeth about to trouble those whom the sword of persecution either moved not, or terrified not) look well about you, note the crafts and subtleties of them: take heed of the pestilent winds of divers doctrine, let none trouble the gospel amongst you, or set you at strife and variance. And remember that as the stream that cometh down from the high mountains being caused by much rain and snow, taking everiething that it meeteth with, before it, the further it goeth the greater strength, and the more abundance of water it gathereth, and first removeth out of their places small stones, after with greater violence, casts down strong bridges, yea huge and mighty rocks, and increaseth to that strength, that nothing, be it of never so great force, can resist or withstand it: and in the end leaveth nothing else behind it, quàm inutilem luctum, quaerelas inanes, & miseram vastatorum agrorum & segetum formam: but unprofitable mourning, vain complaints, and a miserable form of the spoilt fields: even so, contentionum pestis, & impia haeresis, eodem modo progrediens, non quicquam aliud quàm turpem & calamito same rerum faciem: in florentissimo antè ecclesiae, agro post se relinquit. The plague of contention, and wicked heresy proceeding in like manner, leaveth nothing after it but a miserable and pitiful face and show of things in that place, which was before the flourishing field of the church. Consider what the wiseman sayeth Proverb. 17. the beginning of strife is as one that openeth the waters. It had been well if the beginning had been withstanded: but seeing that was neglected, and rather by some furthered than stopped: Yet now it is time to make up the breach. This is sufficient to you, whose wisdom and carefulness is well known to all those that be not with sinister affection blinded. Those that be in the Ecclesiastical state (and desirous to keep the peace of the Church) I have only to admonish, that they be not discouraged from doing their duties, because of the slanderous reports, and unchristian taunts and contumelies, that our unquiet brethren lad them with, knowing that it hath been the usual practice of all sectaries and especially of Anabaptistes, who count them all as wicked, and ungodly, as worldlings, and men pleasers, as idle and slothful, that conspire not with them in their confused platform. I may use the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius, used in the like time. Nec quicquam vos moveant, atroces illaecalumniae. etc. Let not those bitter reproaches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast. and cavilling speeches, (wherewith the Anabaptistes and others, studious of contention, and discord oppress you) move you any thing at all, because you rather follow Christ, than them: for although they call you wicked, and infidels, yet yourselves best know what your confidence in God is, and what is your meaning and purpose, so that so often as they accuse you of impiety, or of infidelity, so oft do they minister manifest proofs unto you, that their spirit proceedeth from the father of lies. And marvel not at those bitter contentions: you know it to be true, that the same Zuinglius also sayeth: Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium. etc. This is the subtle e of our common enemy, this is his manner, hereunto doth he bend himself wholly, and sleepeth not: that as soon as the lord hath revealed the light of his word, he also by and by soweth darnel: this do almost all the epistles of S. Paul teach us, wherein it is manifestly declared that there hath been always some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quàm cultores, rather feyners of holiness than embracers of it, who for certain external and unprofitable things, doubt not to say (as it were) grievous stumbling blocks, to the doctrine of the gospel. Only let us be diligent in our vocation: earnest against all kind of enemies: fervent in prayers for the preservation of the Queen's majesty, and for the peace of the Church, with the good success of the Gospel: and vigilant that errors be not published without controlment: and, God will ere it be long, (if our sins deserve not the contrary) give peace to this Church, as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner. To conclude, I do charge all men before God and his Angels, as they will answer at the day of judgement, that under the pretence of zeal, they seek not the spoil of the Church: under the colour of perfection they work not confusion: under the cloak of simplicity they cover not pride, ambition, vainglory, arrogancy: under the outward show of godliness, they nourish not contempt of magistrates, popularity, Anabaptistry and sundry others pernicious and pestilent errors. The Lord make us thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodness bestowed upon us in thus long continuing his gospel: preserving our most gracious and loving Queen: and overthrowing all the conspiracies and devices that the devil hath hitherto invented to molest this state and Church. ¶ A note of such dangerous points of doctrine as are avouched by T. C. in his Reply: and quoted as they are to be found in this Book. HE saith that Certain of the things which we stand upon are such as if every hear of out head were a life, we aught to afford them for the defence of them: whereby he would insinuate that this Church of England doth maintain some damnable doctrine. pag. 44. 2 He saith, that if the Church be considered in the whole and general government and outward policy of it, it may be pure and unspotted: which smelleth of an anabaptistical fancy. pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth, that many things are both commanded and forbidden, of which there is no express mention in the word, which are as necessarily to be followed or avoided, as those whereof express mention is made: which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistry. pag. 77. 4 He holdeth, that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to salvation: and yet is it a doctrine clean contrary to free justification by Christ. pag. 82. 5 He saith, that all the commandments of God and of the Apostles, are needful for our salvation: which is a notorious error. pag. 103. 6 He utterly denieth, that any magistrate can save the life of blasphemers, contemptuous and stubborn I dolaters, murderers, abulterers, incestuous people, and such like, which God by his indiciall law hath commanded to be put to death: whereby he bindeth the civil Magistrate to the observing of the Judicial laws of Moses, and condemneth this state & government (now used in this realm of England) of manifest impiety. pag. 120. 7 He affirmeth, that in the Churches of Christ, there be no drunkards, nor whoremongers, at the lest, which are known: which assertion tendeth to Anabaptisme. pag. 176. 8 He says, that what socuer apparel the magistrate commandeth the minister to wear, the commandment can not be without some injury done to the minister: which is to debar the Magistrates from appointing any kind of apparel to Ministers. pag. 265. 9 He says, that those ministries without the which the Church is fully builded & brought to periection and complete unity, are not to be retained in the Church: which is a very dangerous assertion, and may give occasion of divers errors. pag. 307. 10 He holdeth that it were more safe for us, to conforinc our indifferent ceremonses to the Turks which are far of, than to the Papists which are so near: which can not be so, for the Turks utterly deny christ, and be void of all Christian ceremonies. pag. 475. 11 He affirmeth, that not only the dignity, but also the being of the Sacrament of baptism dependeth upon this, whether he be a minister or not, that do the minister it which if it be true, then be there numbers not baptised, that are supposed to be baptised, & it must of necessity follow, that they aught to be rebaptized, which is plain Anabaptisme. pa. 5 8. 12 He saith, that with what lawfulness men may offer themselves to the prayers and hearing of the word of God, they may also offer themselves to the lords Supper: which is a palpable error, pag. 532. And pag. 604. he affirmeth directly to the contrary. 13 He denieth, that the church or any man, may restrain the people from bodily labour, in any of the six days: which is to draw from the Magistrate his lawful authority, and to give carnal liberty to the people. pag. 541. 14 He saith, that the life of the Sacraments dependeth of the preaching of the word: which if it be true, then is the Sacrament of baptism not to be ministered to Infants, because they can not hear the word preached, and indeed this is the ground of Anabaptisme. pag. 566. 15 He doubteth, whither he may call him minister or not, that can not preach, which being joined with his former assertion, that the minister is of the being of the Sacrament▪ it will fall out, that he counteth all those not baptized which have been baptized by any other, than by preachers. pag. 568 and. 583. 16 He seemeth to be of this judgement, that only those which be of the family of God aught to be baptized: which is a dangerous error, for not all that be baptized are of the family of God. pag. 621. 17 He secludeth the Children of excommunicate people, and of processed Papists from the Sacrament of baptism, until they be able to make a confession of their faith: which smelleth very strongly of Anabaptisme, and it is a manifest error. pag. 622. 18 He saith, that Princes must remember to subject themselves unto the Church, to submit their Sceptres, to throw down their crowns before the Church, and to lick the dust of the fecte of the Church: and by the Church he means the presbytery and Eldership: so that he would have Princes in as great bondage to his Seniors, as ever they were to the Pope. pag. 645. 19 He saith, pag. 646. that the government of the common wealth, must be framed according to the government of the Church, even as the hangings to the house: and he affirmeth that the government of the Church is Aristocratical or populare, and therefore his opinion must needs be, that no government of any common wealth aught to be Monarchical, but either Aristocratical or populare: which is a dangerous error, and springeth of this, that he doth not distinguish betwixt the essential points of the government of the Church, and the accidental points of the same: for the essential points of ecclesiastical government, may well agreed with any lawful state of common wealth, and civil kind of government: as the Gospel may be truly preached in them all, the Sacraments rightly ministered, discipline duly erecuted, and such like: but the accidental points of government (as the manner of electing ministers, the kind of discipline, accidental ceremonies, and other such like rites and circumstances) may be varied according to time, place, and people, and are so to be framed, as they may best agree with the state and government of every common wealth. The ignorance of this distinction hath cast. T. C. into a great and perilous error. 20 He both joineth with the Papists, in taking from the civil Magistrate authority in ecclesiastical matters, and also in confirming that error by their arguments, and none other. pag. 694. etc. 21 He affirmeth, that the reading of the scriptures without the preaching, cannot deliver so much as one poor sheep from destruction. etc. wherein he is also contrary to himself. pag. 784. ¶ A note of certain untruths, and falfied authorities contained in the Reply of T. C. and are to be found out in this Book, according to the quotation. HE saith, that it appeareth in the eight chapter of the book of Nehemias, that the teast of Tabernacles, which was commanded of the Lord to be celebrated every year, was not celebrated from the days of josua the son of Nun, until the return of the people from their captivity: which is a manifest untruth, as it is evident. 1. Esdr. 3. and it is also against the opinion of all the interpreters. pag. 8. 2 josias, is alleged for Ezechias. pag. 10. 3 This word (especially) is added to the text. 1. Cor. 10 pag. 86. 4 He opposeth Ignatius and Tertullian, to Ambrose and Augustine, as though Ambrose & Augustine should think it to be lawful to fast on the Lord's day, & the other two thould writ the contrary: whereas Ambrose and Augustine fully agree with Ignatius and Tertullian in that matter. pag. 99 5 He mangleth S. Augustine's words, both before, behind, and in the midst. pag. 107. 6 Pag. 144. he falsifieth the words of S. Paul. 1. Tim. 3. and untruly translateth them. 7 He says that the Israelites when they worshipped the Calf said, That they would keep holy day to the Lord jehova: which is not true. pag. 151. 8 He citeth a place out of justinian's code, which cannot as yet be found there, neither doth he faithfully report, but subtly suppress the words which explain the matter, as they be set down by Illyricus of whom he borrowed them. Pag. 184. 9 He saith, that Platina writeth, that Lodowik the second commanded the Romans to choose their own Bishop: which is not true, for he only commended them for so doing, he did not command them. Pag. 186. 10 He saith, that those which writ the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Council of Laodicea, which forbiddeth the election of ministers to be committed to the people, and doubt whether it bea Bastard or no: which is untrue, for the Authors of the Centuryes make no such doubt. Pag. 188. 11 He saith, that Jerome willeth that the people should have power and authority to choose their clerks & their ministers: which is not so, for Hierom willeth no such thing. Pag. 203. 12 He allegeth Musculus his words in stead of Jerome's: and that which only Muscu. saith in his common places, he ascribeth to jerom in his epist. to Nepotian. ead. 13 He saith that Nazian. (in an oration that he writeth at the death of his father) confuteth those reasons, that seem to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church, and yet is there no such thing to be found in that oration. Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. book of Eusebius, for examples of elections of the people & Clergy confirmed by the Christian magistrate, namely in the Bishop of Constantinople: and yet is there no such examples, in those books, neither any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople. Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest untruth upon Eusebius. lib. 6. touching origen's admission into the ministery. Pag. 209. 16 He leaveth out the words of the Council of Chalcedon, that open the meaning of the Council. Pag. 222. 17 He again ascribeth Musculus his words to Jerome. Pag. ead. 18 He denieth that Chrysostom maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders, when as his words be plain. Pag. 226. 19 He doth untruly and corruptly allege Theodorete. Pag. 268. 20 He saith, Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition, were written by diverse people, the one not knowing the others doings: the contrary whereof is manifestly declared. 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly. Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of john, by a false interpretation, to make it serve his turn. Pag. 302. 23 He saith that the Centuries allege a place of Ambrose, out of his book de dignitate sacerdotali, to prove that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church. Which is untrue, for the Centuries allege no such place out of Ambrose for any such purpose. Pag. 337. 24 He saith that Jerome and Augustine speak of Archdeacon's, in those places where they only speak of Deacons. Pag. 346. 25 The words of Socrates are falsified. Pag. 350. 26 He untruly reporteth the words of Cyprian. Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian, alluding that to Ceremonies, that Tertullian means of matters of faith and of salvation. Pag. 370. 28 He keepeth back the words of Theodoret that explain his meaning. Pag. 412. 29 An untruth concerning jereneus, avouched out of the fifth book of Eusebius. Cap. 3. &. 4. Pag. eadem. 30 He perverteth the words of the Greek scholiast. Pag. 413. 31 He avoucheth an untruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He uttereth a very uncharitable untruth of the worthy man M. jewel, Bishop of Sarisburie. Page 422. 33 He saith, that in the Council of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitan seat called Synods and propounded the matters, which were to be handled, and that it was his office to see, that the Bishops kept themselves within their own Diocese: and he quoteth the. 9 Canon where no such thing is to be found. Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles. Page. 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Council of Antioch is untruly alleged. Page. 440. 36 He should say an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface, and he saith an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface, In the which Epistle he saith that this cause scil. Lest they should wax vile through the multitude, is alleged why there should not be a Bishop in every village or little city which is untrue: for there is no such cause alleged there. 443. 37 He allegeth the fift Canon Concilij Tyronnes. for that, that cannot be found in it. Page 446. 38 He saith, that another council (quoting the Council of Africa) decreed that the Christians, should not celebrated feasts on the birth days of Martyrs, because it was the manner of the heathen: which is a manifest untruth, for there is no such decree in that council. 479. 39 He saith. That Tertuliian would not have the Christians to sit after they had prayed, because the Idolaters did so: and he quoteth his book de anima, where there is no such thing written. Page ead. . 40 He fathereth an untruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in private houses. Page. 522. 41 He allegeth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be found in them. Pag. 584. 42 He says, that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth, & that there be no sacraments but when as to the element there cometh the word, the circumcision can be no Sacramen , which is a gross untruth, for in circumcision there is both the word and the element. Page. 〈◊〉. 43 He says that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantine's time, but he noteth 〈◊〉 place, where we may find his saying to be true. Page. 651. 44 He is greatly deceived about the excommunicating of Apollinaris, and showeth manifest tokens, that either he hath not himself read the story, or that he hath read it very negligently, as it is plainly declared in the Defense. Page. 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose. Page. 670. 46 He allegeth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully. Page. 673. 47 He says that Augustine in his books de Bap. contra Donatistas', 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished, that then no excommunication aught to be attempted, for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voices will not be obtained for the excommunication, whereas these words, for because a sufficient number of voices. etc. are not to be found in these books of Augustine. Page. 675. 48 He maketh an untrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Council of Anti h. Page. 682. 49 He allegeth that for making Ecclesiastical laws and ceremonies, which is meant of building and repairing of Churches, out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium. Page. 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practice continued still in the Churches of God, scil. that nothing was brought into the Church to be read, besides the word of God, whereas the contrary is manifestly proved of the same time whereof he means. Page. 718. 51 He says that S. john in the apocalypse reprehending the ministers of divers Churches, did not put to his name unto his book, which is a manifest untruth, for he addeth his name both in the beginning, and in the end: thrice in the first chapter, and once in the last. I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures: his wrong collections: bold assertions contrary to the practice of the Church and truth: and notorious untruths affirmed by him of the Answer to the Admonition, with sundry other gross oversights, because I have noted them in the margin, and plainly detected them in my Defense to this Replier, and are (for the most part) noted also in the General Table under these 3. titles. Falsifications of the Replier: T. C. charged with untruth. T. C. charges the Answer falsely. Men may err and be deceived: but either to speak nothing truly, or often to fault in untrue dealing, cannot be a token of the spirit of truth: the which spirit of truth, God for his Christ's sake, grant unto all those that have a hearty desire to know the truth. FINIS. A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPAL titles, and matters, handled at large in this Book. AN answer to the Epistle Dedicated by T. C. too the Church of England etc. pag. 1 An Epistle of the Author too the Church of England. 17 An exhortation to the Civil & ecclesiastical Magistrates. 31 An answer to the Preface of the Admonition. 57 Tractatus. 1. Whether Christ forbiddeth rule and superiority unto ministers. 61 The true interpretation of the 20 of Matthew etc. Reges gentium. etc. Cap. 1. 61 The exposition of the place Math. 23. Cap. 2. 71 Tract. 2. Of the authority of the church in things indifferent. 76 Some things may be tolerated in the Church touching order, ceremonies, discipline, & kind of govern meant, not expressed in the word of God. Chap. 1. 76 The opinion of the ancient fathers and councils of things indifferent. Chap. 2 95 The opinion of Saint Augustine of things indifferent. Chap. 3 99 The opinion of M. Caluine of things indifferent. Chap. 4. 109 The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent. Chap. 5 113 The exposition of the places of Deut. 4. & 12. quoted by the Admonition. Chap. 6. 116 The opinion of other late writers of things indifferent. Chap. 7. 126 Tract. 3. Of the election of Ministers. 132 Of the trial of Ministers both in learning and conversation. Chap. 1. pag. 132 Whether Idolatrous sacrificers and massmongers may afterwards be Ministers of the Gospel. Chap. 2. 143 Of Ministers learning Catechisms Chap▪ 3. 152 Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people. Chap. 4. 154 An examination of the reasons which T. C. useth to prove the perpetual equity etc. of elections by the people. Chap. 5. 170 The diversity betwixt the Apostles times & ours, requireth a divers kind of government, and of ordering of Ministers. Chap. 6. 174 That Bishops have authority to admit and ordain Ministers. Chap. 7. 194 It is not necessary that the people should have interest in the election of Ministers, but the contrary is convenient. Chap. 8. 211 Tract. 4. Of Ministers having no pastoral charge, of ceremonies used in ordering Ministers, of Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets. 216 Of Ministers admitted, a place being not void. Chap. 1 216 Of ceremonies used in ordaining Mi nisters. Chap. 2. 225 Of Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets. Chap. 3. 228 Tract. 5. Of Residence of the pastor. Chap. 1. 235 Of pluralities or having more benefices than one. Chap. 2. 246 Tract. 6. Of Ministers that cannot preach and of licences to preach. 251 Some may be Ministers that cannot preach. Chap. 1. 251 Of licences to preach. Chap. 2 254 Tract. 7. Of apparel of Ministers. 256 The causes why they refuse the Apparel examined. Chap. 1. 256 That Ministers were known in times passed by distinct apparel. Chap. 2. 261 That the Magistrate may appoint a distinct apparel for Ministers. Chap. 3. 264 The distinction of apparel was appointed before the Pope's tyranny Chap. 4. 268 That the apparel now used is not Popish or Antichristian. And that things invented by evil men may be used of Christians. Chap. 5. 271 divers things concerning apparel in other places, of the Answer. chap. 6. 282 The faults wherewith the Admonitors charge the apparel, answered, Chap. 7 283 Tract. 8. Of Archbishops, Metropolitans, Bishops, Archdeacon's, etc. pag. 297 The reasons of T. C. answered, where by he goeth about to take away the superfluous lop (as he termeth it) of the offices. chap. 1. 297 That the names of Metropolitan, Archbishop, etc. be not Antichristian. chap. 2. 318 The offices of Archbishops, etc. are not strange or unheard of in Chri stes church: and of superiority among the Clergy. chap. 3. 353 The defence of the answer of master jewel concerning Archbishops, etc. against the unreverend Reply of T. C. chap. 4 422 The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogative, and the estate of the old Bishops (assigned by T. C.) examined. Chap. 5. 435 Other things concerning the offices and authority of our clergy, of inequality of degrees amongst ministers, etc. dispersed in other places of the Answer. chap. 6. 453 A brief collection of such authorities as are used in this defence of the authority of Archbishops & Bishops. Chap 7. 470 A brief comparison of the Bishops of our time, and the Bishops of the primitive Church. Chap. 8. pag. 47 Tract. 9 Of the communion book. 474. The general faults examined where with the public service is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. 474 An examination of the particular faults either in matter or form, wherewith the Book of common prayer is charged. Chap. 2. 487 Of Baptism by women wherewith the communion Book is falsely charged. Chap. 3. 503 Of ministering the sacraments in private places. Chap. 4. 511 The sacraments ministered by other than Ministers. Chap. 5. 515 Of private communion, wherewith the Admonition charges the Book of common prayer. Chap. 6. 525. Of Churching of women. 534 Tract. 10. Of holidays. 538 Of holidays in general, and that they may be appointed by the Church, and of the use of them. Chap. 1. 538 Of Saints days. Chap. 2. 543 Tract. 11. What kind of preaching is most effectual. 555 Tract. 12. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments 562. Tract. 13. Of reading of the Scriptures. 568. A comparison between reading of Scriptures and preaching. Chap. 1. page. 568 That reading is preaching. chap. 2. pag. 574 The profit of reading Scriptures in the Church. chap. 3. 578 Tract. 14. Of ministering and preaching by Deacons. 582 Tract. 15. Of matters touching the communion. 588 Of orders and ceremonies used in the celebration of the Communion. chap. 1. 588 Of shutting men from the communion, and compelling to communicate. chap. 2. 603 Of plain and simple ministering and receiving of the communion. Chap. 3. 605 Tract. 16. Of matters touching baptism pag. 607 Of interrogatories ministered to infants. Chap. 1. 607 Of Godfathers and their promise. Chap. 2 612 Of fontes and crossing in baptism. Chap. 3. pag. 614 Of the parties that are to be baptized. Chap. 4 619 Tract. 17. Of the Signiory or government by Seniors. 626 Whether there were such as the Ad monition calleth Seniors, in every Congregation, chap. 1. 626 Whether the government by Seniors aught to be perpetual, cha. 2 pag. 623 The inconvenience of the Seignory in the time of Christian Princes, especially in the state of this church. Chap. 3. 656 That there is no one certain kind of government in the church, which must of necessity be perpetually observed. chap. 4. 678 Tract. 18. Of certain matters concerning discipline in the church. 660 Of Excommunication, and in whom the execution thereof doth consist. chap. 1. 660 Of Bishop's courts and their Officers. chap. 2. 679 Tract. 19 Of Deacons and widows. 686 Of the Office of Deaoncs. chap. 1. 686. Of the office of widows and their continuance. chap 2. 693 Tract. 20. Of the authority of the civil Magistrate in Ecclesiastical matters. 694 Tract. 21. Of subscribing to the communion Book. 709 Certain general faults wherewith the Book is charged by the Admonitors. chap. 1. 〈◊〉 Of reading Homilies & A 〈◊〉 chap 2. 〈◊〉 Of the name (priest) given to the mi nisters of the Gospel. chap. 3 〈◊〉 Matters concerning the solemniration of Marriage. chap. 4. 72 Of the Confirmation of Children. Chap. 5. 5 Of burials and matters thereunto belonging. Chap. 6 727 Other particular faults for which they refuse too subscribe too the Book. Chap. 7 7 7 Tract. 22. Of Cathedral Churches. 743 Tract. 23. Of civil offices in ecclesiastical people. 749 A trial of the places alleged by the Admonition, against such civil officers, as are exercised by ecclesiastical people in this realm. chap 1. 749 The reasons which T. C. useth against civil offices in ecclesiastical people examined. chap. 2. 75 The reasons used in the answer justified. 763 Of additions, detractions, & alterations in both the parts of the Admonition. 780 Articles collected out of the for mer Admonition, & untruly said (of the fautors of that Admonition) to be falsifiedpag. 795 A view of the second Admonition. 799 Answer to certain pamphlets spread abroad of late. 806 An examination of the places cited in the end of the Reply, touching matters in controversy. In the end. The end of the principal Titles. A GENERAL TABLE OF THOSE things which are most worthy the noting in this book: wherein this mark (etc) signifieth that that which is noted, is handled more largely, and continueth in more pages together than are quoted. A ABsurdities. 138. 195. 566. 684. An absurd collection. 383. Deliverance from adversity, of two sorts. 493. ¶ Aerius heresy in denying the difference betwixt a Bishop and a Priest. 403. ¶ Add to the word, what it is. 123. ¶ Admonition contrary to T. C. 38. Admonition would have none compelled to communicate. 605. Contrariety in the Admonitors. 802 Admonitors fly to allegories. 599. Admonitors agreed not in their government. 3. Admonitors justly accused of contention. 34. Admonition disorderly published pag. 34. Admonitors disorderly preaching pag. 34. Admonitors deny the Gospel to be truly preached in England. 38. Both the Admonitions slander this Church. 40. 485. 801. Admonitors compared to Donatists. 5 . Admonitorsjoine with papists in de facing this Church of England pag. 51. etc. Admonitors gratify the Papists pag. 55. 603. 712 The ground of the Admonition. 76 ¶ adversaries to the Church of. 4. sorts. 7 5. ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 71. ¶ Alteration in this time dangerous. 678. ¶ Alexander a good Bishop. 594. ¶ Ambition. 481. Ambitious frowardness. 481. Ambition in the Admonitors. 560. ¶ Ambrose alloweth the Arch bishop. 335. Ambrose a Metropolitan. 336. 471. Ambrose his house of salutations. pag. 449 Ambrose excommunicated alone. 670 Ambrose refused to come at the Em perours' commandment, and why. 700. ¶ Amphilochius a Metropolitan. pag. 341. 471 ¶ Anabaptisme a crafty heresy. 620. A note of Anabaptisme practised by the Replier. 696. An usual objection of Anabaptistes pag. 239. Anabaptistes pretend a calling by by the people. 191 192. Anabaptistes inveigh more bitterly against Ministers than against papists. 16. Properties of Anabaptistes. 33. etc. A branch of Anabaptisme. 177. A door opened to Anabaptisme. 313 Why the Anabaptists always pretend scripture. 98. The doctrine of the Replier tendeth to plain Anabaptisme. 566. 567. 622. 626. ¶ Anacletus. 327. ¶ Anicetus. 328. ¶ Andronicus and junia Apostles. 276 ¶ An answer unadvised. 347. ¶ Antichrist began in the Apostles time. 349. Antichrist worketh now by contention. 349. The tail of antichrist what it is. pag. 793. What is a note of Antichrist. 276. ¶ Antiquity may be proved by the writings of Infidels. 324. ¶ Apparel for Ministers 256. etc. Apparel not refused because the Papists use it. 257. Apparel of ministers distinct. 261 etc The magistrate may appoint apparel for ministers. 264. etc. Distinction of apparel before the Pope's tyranny. 268. etc. john's apparel. 270. Apparel now used not Antichristian. 271. etc. White apparel used in the Ministration. 281. 282. How apparel serveth to edification. 286. etc. The form of apparel may put a man in mind of his duty. 291. Mourning apparel. 730. etc. ¶ Appeal granted from the Magistrate to Bishops. 773. ¶ Apostolical function extraordinary. 217. What part of the Apostolical function doth remain. 218. 229. 424 One Apostle did appoint ministers pag. 327. The Apostles began the lords Supper with the lords prayer. 588. 602 ¶ Apollinaris. 669. ¶ Apocryphà. 715. etc. Apocrypha read in times past, 721. Apocrypha. 793. ¶ Archbishop's, Primate, metropolitans. 297. etc. 470. etc Christ called Archbishop. 300. The name of Archbishop may be transferred to other than Christ pag. 300. Archbishop no new ministry. 303. 375. The office of Archbishop without the name. 340. etc. Great difference betwixt an archbishop and the Pope. 308. 382. The Archbishop's office contained in the Scripture. 313. 427 The Archbishop's office in the apostles. 372 Archbishop and Metropolitan, not antichristian names 318. etc. Antiquity of Archbishops & their office. 318. 354 Archbishops in England Anno. Domini. 180. 324. 470 Difference betwixt Archbishop and Bishop. 325. The Archbishop's office in S. john pag. 329. Archbishops and metropolitans before the Nicene Council. 331. 354. Authority of the Metropoltane. pag. 333. The name and office of Archbishop and Metropolitan. 338. Primate allowed in the Council of Carthage. 343. The authority of Archbishops in our Church. 374. The principal office of Archbishops pag. 355. How far our Archbishop's deal in controversies. 362. The reasons serve not for the Pope that serve for the archbishop. pag. 380. 381. etc. metropolitans in Jerome's time. 386 The office of Metropolitan fixed to a place. 393. The use of a Patriarch rare, in what sense. 419. The office of patriarchs in the Primitive Church. 420. The authority of our Archbishopps and Bishops less than in times past. 440 Authority of Archbishop and Bishop came not from the Pope. 360 The circuit of the Archbishop of Alexandria. 471 An Archbishop may govern one province, but not the Pope the whole world. 464. etc. Reasons for the Archbishop are solutions against the Pope. 467 Authorities used in the Defense, for Archbishops, and the superiority of Bishops. 470. etc. ¶ Archdeacon's. 344. etc. ¶ Archiflamines. 320. etc. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter. 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè. 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatives by comparison. 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij. 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione. 62 Argumentum à facto ad us. 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè. 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument. 316. etc. Arguments borrowed of the Papists. 466. 696. 697. 698. etc. Argumentum à toto ad parts affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleged. 243 ¶ Arrogancy cloaked with zeal. 42 Arrogancy dispraiseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancy of the libelers. 57 ¶ Assertion unadvised. 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop. 471. 339 Athanasius Creed. 496 Athanasius being a child, baptised. pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church. 178 ¶ Ancient Fathers contemned of the unlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of things indifferent. pag. 99 etc Augustine delivered from untrue surmises. 100 Augustine heareth civil causes. 771. 772. Augustine retorted upon the adversary. 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the oversight of many Churches. pag. 471 ¶ Authority the best proof in Divine matters. 200 B ¶ Babbling in prayer, what it is. 805 ¶ Baptism the sacrament of faith. pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptism. 607. etc Of the parties to be baptized. 619. etc Baptism once ministered remains perpetual. 622 The essential point of Baptism. pag. 519. Baptism called private in respect of the place. 93. 504 Baptism ministered but once a year. pag. 238 Baptism true though not ordinarily ministered. 517. 521 Differing of Baptism not convenient. 521 Baptism by lay men. 518. 519. 523. Baptism by women not collected out of the book. 504. 793. Baptism by women not defended. pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptism ministered in private places. 511. etc. 513. Necessity in Baptism. 523. Baptism ministered without preaching. 563 The name of Baptism transferred to the gifts of the spirit. 564 ¶ Basilius, a Metropolitan. 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babbling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ beggars and ignorant people are thought only to be saved of some. 10 ¶ To believe and to be elected not all one. 611 ¶ Benedictus. 494. etc. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops. etc. holy names. 472 Beza his judgement of baptizing the children of excommunicate person. etc. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops most meet to have the examination of ministers. 131 bishop have authority to admit ministers. 196. etc Bishops appoint their successors. pag. 205 Bishop's authority. 297. etc 408. Bishops called heads of the Churches. 301 One ministery of Bishops, but diverse degrees 320 A Bishop above a priest in Cyprians time. 358 One bishop in one City. 366. 444. Difference betwixt bishop and Priest. 383 bishops in the Apostles times. pag. 384. 470 Jerome's bishop above an Elder in rule. 385 Bishops governors simply, not of one action only. 3 bishop's authority consists in offences. 75 Bishop high priest. 411. 470. 471. What kind of authority bishops exercise. 420 bishops succeed Apostles in government. 32 Comparison betwixt our Byshope and the old Bishops. 472 〈◊〉 Bishops alone excommunicate. 6 6 etc. bishops may have assistance in excommunication. 673 Authority ascribed to Bishops in x communication, not infinite but limited. 6 8 Bishops gave sentence in civil causes. 773 ¶ A Bloody assertion. 150 ¶ Book of common prayer. Look Communion Book. Book of ordering Ministers justified concerning examination. pag. 134. 〈◊〉. 42 The reasons of T. C. against the Book of ordering Ministers. pag. 134. etc ¶ Body, what it signifieth in Caluine. 46 Of these words. The Body of ou e Lord jesus Christ. etc. 6 ¶ Brags. 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion. Look Communion Bread. ¶ Brethren may be punished. 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferent. 113. etc. Bucers' censure of the first Communion Book. 595 615 Bucer defaced by the replier. 522 ¶ Burials. 727. etc The place of Burial. 737 The duty of the minister not hindered by burying the dead. 730 A prayer at Burial expounded. pag. 729 The dead buried by the minister & with prayer. 728 Burial Sermons. Look funeral sermons. C ¶ Caius Fimbria. 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop, etc. 417. etc Caluine of things indifferent. 109 etc. Caluine alloweth Superiority. 390. 398. diverse editions of calvin's institutions. 391. 50 calvin's opinion of Communion bread. 592. etc ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned. 463 etc ¶ (Can) is not taken for (ought). 778 ¶ Catechist, and pastor differ. 425 Catechi mes. 152. etc ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 280 ¶ Cathedral Churches. 742. etc Cathedral Churches before Antichristian Popes. 747 A College of Ministers in every city. 747. Our Cathedral Churches not much differing from those of old time. pag. 747 The use of Cathedral Churches necessary. 747 ¶ Cavilles. 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caveat. 448 A necessary caveat. 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sorts. 80 How we have but 2. ceremonies. 119 Substantial ceremonies. 80 Accidental ceremonies. 80 Rules of ceremonies. 86. 87 The controversy about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Every church hath an order of ceremonies. 707 How Ceremonies serve to edifying. pag. 286. etc. Why God appointed so many ceremonies to the jews. 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and ours. 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies, unanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 158. etc. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate people may be baptisedpag. 621. etc How children are said to believe. 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop. 300 Christ used unleavened biead. 593. etc. ¶ Christian men sheep, but reasonable. 172 The number of Christians more now than in the Apostles times. 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop. 412. etc. 472. Chris stome exerciseth archiepiscopal jurisdiction in Asia. 414 Chrisostome of distinction of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut up in one province now. 465 The Church is reform not transformed. 474 To frame all churches after one is dangerous. 481. 482 Church for the governors of the church. 636. 66 No church may challenge to be a pattern necessarily to be followed. 704 The church full of hypocrites. 176 Some in the church, and not of the church. 179 Not church established in the Apostles time & how. 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantine's time. 188. 189 The Authority of the church in things indifferent. 76. etc. What things are left to the order of the church. 83. 88 etc. 713. The determination of the church aught not lightly to be altered. 89 ¶ Churching of women. 534. etc. The cause of the woman's absence from the church after her dehuerance. 535 ¶ Circumstances necessary are commanded. 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament. 618 Circumcision in private houses. 515 ¶ Cyprian chooseth without consent of the people. 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop. 354. etc. 367. etc. Cyprian a Metropolitan. 356. 438. 470. ¶ Civil offices in Ministers. 749. etc. Civil offices in our Ministers tend to the government of the church pag. 75 . Civil authority not claimed but committed to our Bishops. 752 Some Civil offices rather helps than hindrances to Bishops. 753 Augustine judgeth civil causes. pag. 772. Civil jurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in use in this church. 759. 778 A greater civil jurisdiction sought for in disproving the less. 760 Civil jurisdiction in use in this church is in some respect ecclesiastical. pag. 766. 771 Civil and Ecclesiastical offices met in one. 767. 771. Civil offices in ministers not against the word of God. 773. The practice of the Church for civil offices in ministers. 773. Civil business incident to Bishops by the judgement of the holy Ghost. 772. 774. ¶ Clement. 319. etc. Clement's Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect upon Trinity Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinity Sunday. 491. ¶ Coemiteria. 250. ¶ Commandments of diverse kinds. 103. All the commandments of God and of the Apostles are not needful for our salvation. 103. ¶ Community in the Apostles times. pag. 162. ¶ Comeliness external, is alterable. 98. The judgement of comeliness rests not in private men. 87. ¶ Communion Book. 474. etc. Communion in private places. 5 4. 525. Communion ministered to the sick pag. 527. etc Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. etc. basil would have. 12. at the lest to communicate. 530. Of compelling men to communicate. 531. 532. 605. Men not meet to communicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word, and prayer. 533. The Apostles began the communion with the lords prayer. 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion. pag. 588. etc. Examination of Communicantes. pag. 591. etc. Two things worthy to be noted of Communicantes. 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed. 593. Communion bread. 593. etc. Alexander appointed unleavened breed. 594. Bucers' opinion of Communion bread. 594. calvin's opinion of Communion bread. 594. Christ used unleavened bread. 595. The kind of bread indifferent. 595. Communion at marriages. 724. Of shutting men from the Communion. 603. Men persisting in wickedness are not to be compelled to the communion. 605. Half communion. 737. The makers of the Communion book praised. 711. ¶ Companions of Paul choose by consent, and why. 163. ¶ Comparisons unequal. 710. ¶ Conference a cause of better know ledge. 176. Conference offered to the replier, hath been by him refused. 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation. 725. etc 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popish Church. 786. Confirmation of old time like ours. pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed. 794. The end of confirmation. 794. ¶ Confusion followeth the doctrine of the Admonitors. 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mill testes. 503. ¶ Consuls and their authority 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiastical laws. 698 ¶ Contention defended. 34. 377. Contention a hindrance to the profession of divinity. 141. Who be contentious. 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined with one difference. 124 Some delight to be contrary to times. 283. Men of contrary judgement joy ne against the truth. 51. How contraries must be cured by contraries. 476. ¶ Conventicles. 41. ¶ Corruption. 485 Corruption in the Church in the Apostles time. 349. ¶ Counsels summoned by princes. page. 436 Variety about the time of the council of Nice. 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the council of Nice. Controversy about the number of Canons of the council of nice. page. 334. The second council of nice alleged by the replier. 247. A corrupt council of Urban alleged by the replier. 23. A corrupt council of Hispall alleged by the replier. 442. ¶ Courts of Bishops. 679. etc. Court of faculties. 561. Ecclesiastical courts executed in the Prince's name. 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptism. 614. etc. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours. 616. Crossing no Sacrament. 617. ¶ Curates allowed. 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page. 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleged to a wrong pur pose. 248. Damasus added Gloria patri. 489. ¶ Days, observing of days, 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kinds of observing of Days. 546 ¶ Deacons choose by consent, and why. 164 Of ministering & preaching by Deacons. 582. etc Philip a Deacon baptized. 582. 515 Deacons help in the ministration. pag. 585 The Deaconship a step unto the ministry. 587 Deacons baptized. 588. etc. Moore pertaineth too the office of a Deacon, than provision for the poor. 687. etc. Some part of the Deacons office not necessary under a Christian Prince. 689. 690 Whether Deacons were in every congregation. 689 Why the Apostles left the Deaconship. 758 ¶ Deans. 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertaining too order, not only human. 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministery. 458 Degrees in Divinity condemned. 780. 781. Degrees in the University condemned. 782 To take away Degrees, is barbarousness. 420 To be delivered from evil, what it signifieth. 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt. 470 ¶ defile the nature of things is not in man's power. 285 How far the precept in Deuteromie is extended. 117 ¶ Digressions from the matter to the people. 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae, interpreted. 636. 663 ¶ Dionysius Areopagita, Archbishop of Athens. 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite used of master jewel against Harding. 608 Dionysius Alexander. Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis. 470 Dionysius Corinthius. b 719 Dionysius Corinth. his epistles read in the Church. 719 Dionysius divided parishes. 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop. 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessary. 559 Matters concerning Discipline. 660 Wherein Discipline consists. 661 The execution of Discipline not given equally to all. 313 ¶ Distinction (quoad ministerium, & quoad ordinem) justified. 390 Disobedience in civil matters is disobedience to God. 282 Dissension domestical, the foe erunner of Destruction. 705 ¶ Doctor's of law left out of the Admonition, and way. 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to men's people. pag. 148 All points of Doctrine pure in this Church. 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted. 461 ¶ Dominion hath diverse significations. 63 Some kind of temporal Dominion denied to ministers. 64 A minister may exercise temporal Dominion. 64. 65 ¶ Donatists' and their properties. 50. 622. ¶ A doubtful saying. 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter observed of the Apostles. pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priests left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act. 1. & act. 6. agreed 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not general in Cyprians time. 1 . Not certain form of electing commanded in Scripture. 166. 1 Diversity of Elections in the Apostles times. 167. 197 〈◊〉 Variety used in Elections. 〈◊〉 Reasons for the election by the people answered. 17 c. Elections by the multitude for the most part tumultuous. 1 1 Election forbidden to the people. 1 8 Three kinds of election in the Apostles time. 1 Election and ordination may concur. 〈◊〉 Contention in popular elections. 2 5 206. 213. 214. Reasons against popular electio . 211 etc. Popular elections an impedimen 〈◊〉 the civil Magistrate 〈◊〉 ¶ Emperors have had the deci of ecclesiastical 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 Counsels summoned by 〈◊〉. pag. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 ¶ England not bond to the bless of other churches. 7 ¶ Epaphroditus an Apostlt. 〈◊〉 ¶ Ephes. 4. no perfect pat . 〈◊〉. 423. etc. Ephes. 4. does ssed. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ Epiphanius busied with ciu l says. 〈◊〉 Epiphanius alloweth superiority. pag. 4 The writings of Epiphanius. 402 The whole Epistle to Timothe no commandment. 637 Epistie and Gospel in the church. pag. 58 . etc ¶ Equality of Ministers will pull on the equality of all estates. 455 Why the Admonitors seek equalltie. 459 Equality of Ministers, (quoad m i sterium) 389. etc. Equality made a cloak for ambition 55. 459 What kind of Equality is pretended. 299 ¶ Errors and dangerous doctrine of the replier. 4 4. 50. 77. 82. 〈◊〉. 120. 176. 180. 265. 307. 518. 532. 541. 566. 568. 582 621. 622. 646. 694. 784 A gross Error. 151 ¶ Evangelists remain. 229. Evangelists have an ordivarie function. 217 ¶ Eusebius governor of more Churches than one. 698. ¶ Eustathius deposed for apparel. page. 270. 271. ¶ Examples, what they prove. 506. 512. Examples of Luther. etc. against the Admonition. 148. What examples of the Apostles times must be followed. 101. Particular examples may sometime be followed. 516. A general doctrine may not be concluded of a singular example. 562 A man may follow the example of him that is not continually with him. 241 Examples of T. C. against himself. 68 152. 374. 395. 396. ¶ Exhortations particular move more than general. 601 ¶ Excommunication. 660. etc. Only ministers may excommunicate. 661 Excommunication more than excluding from external society. 665 Excommunication not the only punishment of the church. 764 The people not ministers, but witnesses of Excommunication. 666 Want of Excommunication no just cause of separation from the church pag. 81 Excommunication by one. 665 etc. Excommunicate people not received before public repentance. 671 When Excommunication should be ministered. 673 How the whole Church is said too Excommunicate. 673 Bishops alone did Excommunicate. pag. 678. 677. 679 The practice in Augustine's time of Excommunication. 678 A kind of civil Excommunic. 679 F ¶ Falsifications of the Replier. 49. 86. 107. etc. 144. 184. 186. 203. 209 222. 268. 302. 314. 326. 350. 357. 370. 412 413. 415. 439. 467. 479. 547. 584. 669. 6 0. 673. 675. 698. 797. Error and disorder maintained by falsifying. 485 A False collection upon Musculus words. 67 ¶ Fasting on the Saboth day. 99 102 Fasting on the lords day wicked. pag. 99 102 ¶ faith cometh by reading. 252 Not man knoweth who be Faithful pag. 621 ¶ Flavianus Archbishop. 338 ¶ Caius Fimbria. 708 ¶ The fourth Finger. 723 ¶ Fontes. 614 ¶ Diversity betwixt spiritual Food and external. 556 ¶ Forgery seeketh corners. 338 ¶ Master Fox alloweth of Archbishops. etc. 421. ¶ free-will doctrine thought not too be repugnant to salvation. 82 Doctrine of free-will raseth the foundation of faith. 82 83 ¶ Funeral sermons. 732. etc. Funeral sermons compared to Tren tals. 732 Funeral sermons allowed by Calvin. 732 The order of the primitive church in Funerals. 734 Funeral sermons serve to comfort those that are grieved. 735 An absurd argument against Funeral sermons. 735 Funeral sermons most necessary where there are most papists. 736 G ¶ gedeon's Ephod. 711 ¶ Getils took their Images for gods pag. 151 Gentiles and papists not like in all respects. 475 Gentiles and jews liad somethings common. 475 ¶ Gennadius. 472 ¶ Gifts of god bestowed by means. pag. 645 how every function hath gifts needful. 316 ¶ Gloria patri. 489. 496 Gloria in excelsis. 602 All seek not the glory of God that pretend it. 42 ¶ Godliness breaketh no laws. 810 Godliness required in governors. 684 All Godly men are not meet to govern. 684 ¶ Godfathers & their promise. 612. etc The promise of Godfathers restrained to their power. 612 Godfathers allowed by T. C. 613 Godfathers once disallowed, and after recanted. 798. 782 ¶ Good things may come from evil men. 746 Good men defaced by those which do no good. 241 ¶ Government in the Clergy not forbidden but the kind of Government. 62 The pretence of restoring right Government, a cloak for further mistress chief. 2 Government of one by law better than of many without law. 378 Three kinds of lawful government pag. 650 Matters of the kind of government, not necessary to salvation. 80 Two kinds of government of the Church. 80 In what respect government is necessary. 81 The Church not tied to one kind of Government. 81. 98. 640. 678. etc. The kind of Government alterable by M. Beza his judgement. 660. Governors in the Church. 630 divers circumstances altar Government. 639. 659. 660. Government of the Church Monarchical. 641 The Government of the Common wealth aught not to be framed to the Government of the Church. 646. etc. Spiritual Government taketh not a way civil Magistracy. 756 The Government of the Church not only spiritual. 756. 789 Governor in the Church not of the Church. 789 ¶ Gregory Bishop of Pontus. 471 Gregory made the Litany. 489 Gregory for George. 447 H ¶ Heretics lose not their baptism. pag. 622 ¶ Hemingius alloweth superio itie. pag. 419. etc ¶ Jerome of the degree of Bishops above other Ministers. 369. etc. Hieromes Presbytery and the Repliers agreed not. 652 ¶ Holidays. 538. etc The use of Holidays a stop to superstition. 539 The jews appointed Holidays. 543 The jews had more Holidays than we. 545 Holidays observed in reform Churches. 548 Difference betwixt Popish Holidays and ours. 554 ¶ Homilies. 715. etc. Our Homiles free from error. 715 Some Homilies better than some ser mons. 716 Homilies of Father's read in the church. 719. 720. Homilies read, commendable. 296 Bucers' opinion of Homilies. 719 Rudleis judgement of Homilies. 720 ¶ The title of most honourable Lord given to Bishops. 448 I ¶ james Bishop of jerusalem. 470. 384. ¶ Idolatrous sacrificers may be Ministers. 143. etc. Three kinds of Idolatry. 152 Idolatrous things turned to common use. 273 Idolatrous things converted too the honour and service of God. 284 ¶ Kneeling at the name of jesus. 741 Why christians bowed at the name of jesus. 742 ¶ Master jewel concerning Archbishops. 422. etc. Master jewel slandered by T. C. pag. 422 ¶ The Jews had their ceremonies particularly described. 118 Wherein the jews had a more particular direction than we. 117 jews had something common with the Gentiles. 321 ¶ Ignorantia Elenchi, look Argumentum. ¶ Infirmities in all men. 612 ¶ Imposition of hands diversly taken. 198 Imposition of hands 226 Imposition of hands in confirmation allowed by master Calvin. pag. 785 ¶ Inconstancy of T. C. and his come panions. 431 ¶ Indifferent things lose the nature of indiffereneie being commanded. 92. 258 In what kind of indifferent things we aught to have respect to the weak. 258 Ancient Fathers of things Indifferent. 95. etc. Councils of things Indifferent. pag. 97. 98 Scriptures of things Indifferent. 98 Augustin of things Indiffer. 99 etc. Calvin of things Indifferent. 109. etc. Late writers of things Indifferent. pag. 126. etc. The doctrine of things Indifferent. pag. 278 ¶ Interrogatories to Infants. 6 7. etc. Augustine of Interrogatories. 608 ¶ The Introite. 588 Celestinus his Introite. 589 ¶ john his apparel. 270 john setteth his name to the apocalypse 807 ¶ jonathan the Calday paraphrast. pag. 718 ¶ The judicial law abrogated. 121 The judicials pertained to the government of the church. 119 The Magistrate not bond to the judicial law of Moses. 121. etc. justinian made Ecclesiastical laws. pag. 699 K ¶ Difference betwixt a king and a Tyrant. 377 Christ and his Gospel no enemies to Kingdoms. 647 ¶ Kneeling at the communion. 596. etc Kneeling the meetest gesture. 597 Kneeling at the name of jesus. 741 L ¶ laws made must not be overthrown without strong reasons. pag. 686 Lawful is ordinary in a Church esta blished. 38 Difference betwixt the severity of the law and the lenity of the Gospel. 149 ¶ Lay men teachers in the Church. pag. 209. 521 Lay men baptized. 518. 519 ¶ Letters commendatory. 141 ¶ The Litany. 489. 495. 496. ¶ Leo Archbishop. 338 471 ¶ Levites had to do in civil matters pag. 697 ¶ The true liberty of the Church. pag. 195. Christian liberty. 791 What liberty cannot be taken away. 541 Not man's liberty restrained. 542 ¶ Libel what it is. 807 Libelers be underminers. 559 libeling no true way of reforming pag. 806 The Libelers compared to pharisies pag. 807 ¶ Licence to preach necessary. 255 ¶ Passing Logic. 383 M ¶ Macheviles. 8 0 ¶ Magistrates evil spoken of by Anabaptists, and why. 37 Civil Magistrates may not take upon them ecclesiastical functions pag. 5 Civil Magistrate doth not simply differ from the ecclesiastical by bearing rule. 63 Not Christian Magistrate in the Apostles time. 180 The Magistrate head of the common wealth, but not of the church by T. C. 180 How the Church may be established without a Magistrate. 182 The Magistrates authority abridged pag. 265. 266 The Magistrate may abridge external liberty. 541 The Papists opinion of Christian Magistrates. 631 Not more granted to the Christian Magistrate than to the Turk. 635 The Civil Magistrate a better help than Seniors. 640. 641 The Prince made subject to Seniors. pag. 646 The Magistrate may better reform offenders than Seniors. 643. The overthrow of the Prince's authority contained in the Reply. page. 646. The authority of the Civil Magistrate in Ecclesiastical matters. page. 694. etc. The Prince spoiled of his authority. 694. The opinion of the replier concerning the Prince's authority. 695 What authority Papists give to the Magistrate in Ecclesiastical matters. 695. Princes have exercised supreme authority in Ecclesiastical matter . page. 698 6 9 A wise Prince will take the advise of the learned in weighty affa es page. 6 9 The civil Magistrate shut from the government of the Church. 78 . ¶ Magnificat & nunc dimittis. 494. etc. 496. ¶ Manichees appoint the Lords day to be fasted. 1 2. ¶ Matters concerning the solemnisation of marriage. 723 etc. Toys about marriage. 794. ¶ M. Martyr's words perverted. 2 0. ¶ massmongers may be ministers page. 143. etc. ¶ Masters of Colleges & their authority. 397. ¶ Mathias elected extraordinarily. page. 154. ¶ Meletius Archbishop of Egipte. page. 471. ¶ Mercy of God infinite. 83. 624. ¶ Messalian heretics. 536. ¶ Metaphors of watchmen & shepherds. 22 . 2 7. ¶ Metropolitan. 297. etc Metropolitan: look Archbishop, ¶ Ministers that cannot preach. 251. etc. Causes of lack of able Ministers. page. 252. Ministers known in time passed by apparel. 261. etc. Ministers having no pastoral charge page. 216. etc. Ministers defamed not reform by the Admonitors. 36. Ministers reviled by Anabaptistes and why. 37. A man may offer himself to the ministery. 48. Ministers may exercise some civil jurisdiction. 64. 354. 749. etc. Election of Ministers. 132. etc The trial of Ministers in learning and conversation. 132. Worthy Ministers in England 1 0 The Minister may be assured of his calling though he be not choose by the people. 194. All Ministers govern but not alike page. 314. Minister's subject to Bishops. 420 One Minister may not meddle in an other man's charge. 803 A Minister may use corporal punish meant. 764 The Minister hindered, & by whom pag. 484 The Minister not the only mouth of the people. 501. etc. ¶ Moore sincerity in the ministration of the Sacraments now, than in the ancient Church. 526 ¶ Mysteries, what they be. 515 ¶ The government of this Realm Monarchical. 182. 650 A Monarchy and Tyranny confoun dead by T. C. 377 ¶ Modesty of the Replier. 351 ¶ The moderators office. 395 ¶ Moses wife did circumcise. 515 ¶ Monuments of Idolatry may be used if they be profitable. 256 ¶ Mourning apparel. 730. 731 A lawful, & unlawful use of mourning apparel. 732 ¶ Musculus alleged for Jerome. 203 222. Musculus his reasons upon the 20. of Matthew. 69. etc. Musculus his meaning perverted. 193 N ¶ Names, of divers kinds. 64 Names common to civil and ecclesiastical people. 64 Names proper to God may in some respect be attributed to other. 300 A lawful name may remain though it hath been abused. 302 How these words [vos autem non sic] may be referred to names. 63 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not all one. 71 ¶ divers significations of this word (Necessary.) 80 ¶ N even Creed. 589 ¶ Only 2. essential notes of the Church. 81 ¶ Novatus and his qualities, and the cause of his heresy 74 Novatus the first that forsook his ministery. 74 The Novatian heresy. 360 O ¶ Offences given to the papists through contention. 143 ¶ The opponent should prove. 712 ¶ Ordaining of Ministers pertaineth to Bishops. 225 etc. ¶ Orders of the Church depend not upon every man's misliking. 86 General Orders not lightly to be altered. 101 Decrees pertaining to Order, not only human. 107 Decent Orders, Gods traditions. 606 How the lords Order is kept. 684 The Order which T. C. prescribeth, is full of Inconveniences. 173 ¶ The Ordinary means too draw men from vice. 477 ¶ Origen a lay man when he preached. 209 ¶ A gross Oversight of T. C. 698 Oversight of T. C. 203. 208. 248. 530 P. ¶ Papists in the Church, and how. Pag. 179 Papists like too the Israelites under jeroboam. 625 Papists and Gentiles agreed not in all respects. 475. 624 We conform not ourselves to Papists in ceremonies. 475 The Order of Popish service, clean altered. 476 Of having things common with Papists. 477. 478 479. etc. Papisme an erring of the Christian Church. 624. 625 The Church covered in Papistry. pag. 624 The Papists opinion of Christian Magistrates. 631 The Papists confess that the Prince may punish priests. 701 A Papistical assertion of T. C. 77 ¶ Division of parishes. 249. 250 Parishes divided by man. 250 ¶ The faith & behaviour of Parents. pag. 620 ¶ pastors absence allowed. 245 A Pastor aught too care for the whole church. 243 A Pastor may be absent upon occasion. 236. A Pastor may preach in more places. 237. Careless and slothful Pastors not defended. 241. ¶ Patrirach: Look Archbishop. ¶ County etous patrons. 774 ¶ Paul alone had ius excommunicandi. 665. 667. Paulus Samosatenus. 447. ¶ Peter's forswearing. 144. 146 Peter chief in Apostolical assemblies. 393. etc Peter chief among the Apostles. 468 etc. Peter Archbishop of Alexandria 338. 339. 471. ¶ Peritio principii. Look Argumentum. ¶ Persecution pretended. 58. 706. 777. Persecution doth both increase, and diminish the number of professors. 75 Persecution of the tongue. 706 ¶ A pestident mischief. 481. ¶ The people not always admitted to elections. 212. 213 Why the people have been and aught to be debarred from elections. 213. etc The consent of the people in elections to Cyprians time. 164 Elections of ministers by the people not general. 164. 165 The people ignorant and not able to judge. 177. 215 The people easily led by affection. page. 215. What interest the people had in elections. 205 The common people special authors of tumults in elections. 206 The people hardly brought to leave accustomed terms. 534 The people witnesses not Ministers of excommunication. 666 The people unapt to govern. 683 ¶ Description of a Pharisie. 807 ¶ Phrases of Poets used of Divines. page. 274 ¶ Philip a deacon baptized. 515. 582. ¶ A new platform. 803 ¶ Pluralities. 246. etc ¶ The end of the Apostles in policy ecclesiastical must be respected and not their deeds. 212 ¶ Potestas facti, not (juris) ascribed to Princes. 696. 702 ¶ Popularity. 14 The Replyers arguments tend to Popularity. 684 ¶ Poison hide in the Repliers doctrine. 626 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 497 ¶ Prayers grounded upon promises. pag. 492 Prayer to be delivered from all adver sitie good. 491. etc. Conditions annexed too Prayer for external things. 482 Humility in Prayer required. 493 Prayer to be delivered from thunder pag. 494 etc. All things to be prayed for, tend to the glory of God. 495 Prayer before dangers. 495 Interpretation of the last petition in the lords Prayer. 497. 498 Short Prayers called shredds by T. C. 499 The Scripture prescribeth no form of public Prayer. 501 Prayer for the dead not maintained pag. 728. etc. Prayer that all men may be saved. pag. 739 Prayer by heart only, effectual. 740 Repetition of Prayer not forbidden. pag. 803. etc. Christ useth repetition of the same Prayer. 805 ¶ Preaching before the ministration of the Sacraments. 562. etc. What kind of Preaching is most effectual. 554. etc. Verbal Preachers. 558 One learned sermon better than many unlearned. 555 Frivolous and contentious Sermons pag. 555. 791 The fancy of T. C. concerning the form of Preaching and Praying. pag. 499 When Preaching before baptism is necessary. 563. etc. 567 Preaching before the ministration of the Sacraments not disallowed. pag. 565. 568 Preachig the most ordinary means to salvation. 570 Preaching profiteth more than reading, and why. 572 A written sermon is Preaching. 575 The number of Preachers bread in Cambridge since the Queen's reign. 141 The number of Preachers in Cambridge. 141 Difference betwixt the complaints of godly Preachers and Anabaptistes. 40 A temporal Lord may be a Preacher pag. 64 The word may be Preached privately both in respect of place & people. 93. 94 A Preacher may profit them whom he knoweth not. 239 A Preacher is called thither, where he may do most good. 244 ¶ Pres byter usually taken for a Minister. 626. etc Two kinds of Pres byterie. 627 Pres byterie: Look Seniors. ¶ Pride clooked with zeal. 34. 42. The beginning of the Pride of the Church of Rome. 607 ¶ The name of (Priest) 721. etc. Priest concerning the office never in evil part. 723 King Edward's Priests left out. 781 ¶ Primate: Look Archbishop. ¶ Quod primum verum. 370. 371. ¶ The Prince's authority diminished and her troubles increased. 173 The Prince head of the Church. 181. 301. 6 0. Prince: Look Magistrate. ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 410 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 68 ¶ Promises conditional. 613 ¶ Prophet's in some respect ordinary pag. 218 Prophets remain. 229. 230 Prophets known by distinct apparel. 262 ¶ Psalms song side by side. 740. etc. ¶ Pulpits and chayers. 91 ¶ Punishment corporal, a means to salvation. 765. ¶ Puritan. 73 Purely, and truly. 131 The purity that can abide no imperfection is devilish. 260 Q ¶ Quintus Scevola. 708 ¶ Quod omnes tangit ab omnibus approbari debet, how it holdeth. pag. 170. 171 ¶ Quotations the ground of the Ad monition. 59 Vain Quotations necessarily confu ed. 60. 61 Subtlety in Quoting places. 73 Vain quotation. 234. 261 Scriptures quoted for the phrase. 22. R ¶ Reading of Scriptures. 568. etc Reading is preaching 569. etc 574. etc. Commodity of Reading Scriptures in the Church. 570. 578. etc. Reading engendereth faith. 570 Reading of Scriptures a means too judge of Sermons. 717 Many converted by reading. 573. 581 God useth Reading as a means aswell as preaching. 574. Reading sometimes prevaileth more than preaching. 574 Harding'S opinion of Reading Scriptures. 578 Christ Read the Scripture. 580 Reading is feeding. 580 Reading of Scriptures at the Communion. 589 ¶ Reasoning from allegories uncertain pag. 305 ¶ Our reformation wholly misliked pag. 703 A crooked rule of reformation. 476 ¶ Repentance stretcheth to Idolatry pag. 145 ¶ The Reply consists of other men's collections. 207 The Replier: Look T. C. ¶ The word (Repugnant) what it signifieth. 714 ¶ Residence. 235. etc How a Pastor aught to be resident. pag. 235 Lawful causes of the non residence of the pastor. 236 ¶ Revenues of Idolaters turned too good use. 274 ¶ Rewards for learning already attained necessary. 743 ¶ Riches no impediment to good men. 446 ¶ Ridleyes' testimony of the communion Book. 〈◊〉 Ridleyes' judgement of Homilies. 72 ¶ Ring in Marriage. 723 Bucrs judgement of the marriage Ring. 7 3 ¶ Rules of T. C. returned again t himself. 6 What it is to Rule well. 3 4 They which Rule godly, do s rue. 5 S ¶ Sacraments ministered by other than ministers. 515. 〈◊〉 Some may minister the Sacraments that cannot preach. 4 Sacraments ministered in private pla ces. 511. etc. Doctrine tending to the derogation of Sacraments. 524 Necessity of salvation not tied too Sacraments. 52 . 5 4 The life of Sacraments dependeth not of preaching. 566 Every one must apply the Sacrament to himself. 601 The Sacraments purely ministered. pag. 606 Sacraments receive the name of things signified. 608 What is required to the making of a Sacrament. 618 The proper signification of Sacraments. 618 Outward Sacraments give not grace pag. 73 Sacramental signs. 738 Every thing signifying is not a Sacrament 291. 617. 618 ¶ Saints days. 543. etc. Why the names of Saints are given to our lydayes. 543 ¶ Saunders & the Replier agreed. 695 ¶ Scevola. 708 Scarce the face of a church, what it implieth. 795 ¶ Scripture abused to colour slate y pag. 10 Scripture alleged for the proof of the phrase. 22 The abusing of Scripture is too be maintained in none. 22 Shifts to colour the unapt allegation of Scripture. 22 Scriptures wrested and abused by the Admonition. 58. 59 61. 73. 128. 251. 261. 454. 460. 463. 655. 687. 752. Scripture wrested by T. C. 83. 84. 85. Scripture unskilfully and fond alleged by T. C. 89. 90. 92. 172. 2 297. 374. 592. Canonical Scripture only perfect. pag. 74 What is said to be expressed in Scripture. 77 Wherein the Scripture is sufficient. pag. 7 What things the scripture hath not expressed. 83 How the Scripture containeth all things incident to the life of man pag. 84 ¶ Schismatics. 41 Schismarikes deserve to be sharply reproved. 778 Schismatical meetings aptly called conventicies. 41 Schismatical meetings not sufferable. 41 ¶ Seniors and Signiory. 626. etc. The government of Seniors aught to be perpetual. 633. etc The office ascribed to Seniors depriveth the Magistrate of his authority. 635. 643 The office of Seniors not command dead. 637. 644 Difference betwixt necessity of Pastors and of Seniors. 644 Jerome's Signiory or Presbytery. pag. 652 Inconveniences of the Signiory. 657 etc. Whether Seniors were in every con gregation. 626. etc. ¶ Sermons of the same nature with How ies. 718 Seniors▪ Look Preachers. ¶ A prescript form of service. 488. etc. ¶ Shifts of the Replier. 293. 399. 418. 429. 462. 547. ¶ Shepherd. 220. 221. 237. 238. ¶ Things mere civil may have signification. 291 ¶ God useth not the simple only 10 set forth the truth. 10 ¶ Similitudes, weak arguments. 220 ¶ A syllogism without all form. 316 ¶ Symcon Archbishop. 341. 471 ¶ Singing used in all reform churches. 606 Singing of Psalms by course. 740. ¶ Singularity, and prope s thereof pag. 14 ¶ Sitting at the communion. 597. etc. ¶ If the Sky fall we may catch Larks pag. 465 ¶ Slanderers are not the generation of Christ. 17 Slanders 449. 558. 704. 739. 744. ¶ Socrates a favourer of the novatians. 350 Socrates doings agreeable to our time pag. 350 ¶ Stephen's oration a Sermon. 584 Stephanus a good Bishop invented the apparel. 272 ¶ subjects animated against authority. 267 ¶ Of subscribing to the communion Book. 709. etc. ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 304. 663 ¶ The office of the speaker or mode rator. 393 ¶ A sparing restraint. 490 ¶ Superiority among the Apostles. pag. 37 Superiority convenient among Ministers. 388 Caluine alloweth Superiority. 390. 467. ¶ Superstition in garments condemned. 277 ¶ The Sword that Christ sendeth is not between the faithful. 34 The sword of Discipline necessary. pag. 56 ¶ Supremacy of the Queen secretly denied. 801 T ¶ The feast of tabernacles observed since losua. 9 ¶ Temples of Idols converted to churches. 274 ¶ T. HUNDRED ascribeth his own devise to the Apostles. 674 T. C. maketh greater account of the gonernment, than of the Gospel pag. 7. 82 T. C. joineth with the papists concerning the Prince's authority in Ecclesiastical matters. 7. 377. 694. etc. T. C. allegeth josias for Ezechias. 10 T. C. allegeth Gregory for George. pag. 447 T. C. charged with untruth. 8. 69. 70 74. 77. 99 103. 15 . 158. 163. 166. 186 188. 205 207. 209. 226. 262. 280 332 337. 342 344. 345. 346. 347. 356. 366. 377. 383. 385. 412. 413. 415. 422. 435. 441. 443. 446. 451. 459. 462. 487. 501. 522. 545. 611. 618. 637. 651. 669. 673. 680. 682. 718. 731 8 6. T. C. perverteth the words & meaning of the Answer 17. 117. 130. T. C. charges the Answer falsely. 24. 25. 28. 29. 30. 31. 35. 36. 89.. 92 93. 111. 112. 130. 153. 164. 188. 196. 197 198. 200. 253. 321. 352. 366. 418. 461. 466. 487. 516. 585. 586. 593. 630. 631 651. 704. T. C. contrary to the Admonition. 3 88 530. 605. T. C. bringeth places against himself. 160. 179. 184. 185. 186. 187. 378. 430 442. 542 697. 698. 759. T. C. reasoneth against himself. 130 T. C. contrary to himself. 46. 88 138. 151. 173. 329. 372. 400. 430. 439. 458 502. 517. 533. 566. 604. 718. 740. 784 T. C. inconstant. 614 T. C. desireth that which he hath sought to hinder. 16 The vain excuses of T. C. why he hath not set down the Answer, & the true causes thereof. 16 The presumption of the Replier. 622 T. C. altereth the state of the controversy. 44. 100 768 T. C. setteth the Fathers by the ears without cause. 102 T. C. justifieth the Answer. 120 T. C. accuseth learned men of contra rietie. 114 T. C. tendeth to judaisme. 120. 169. T. C. fetcheth commandments out of the ceremonial law. 167. 592. T. C. depraveth learned men when he cannot answer them. 146. 191. 369. 377. 402. 410. 415 526. 785. T. C. suppresseth the words against him. 184 T. C. pusheth at the Civil Magistrate covertly. 157. 650 T. C. bendeth his force against a more narchie. 641 647 T. C. useth only papists reasons against the Prince's supremacy. 694 etc. The Repliers arguments, strike aswell at the Civil Magistrate as at the Ecclesiastical. 765 T. C. speaketh suspiciously of Government. 389 T. C. Tripped in that he charges others. 193 T. C. pretending Scripture, bringeth that which hath no warrant in scripture. 173. 425 T. C. useth popish & corrupt authorities. 223. 247. 442 T. C. seeketh immunity from laws pag. 266 Why T. C. bendeth his force against those in authority in the church. pag. 299 T. C. addeth to the text. 520 The replier had rather conform himself to the jews than to this Church. 730 T. C. forgetteth himself. 733 T. C. must either dissent from Beza, or grant the controversy. 759 T. C. confesseth the ground of the controversies. 768 T. C maketh Caluine contrary too himself, but untruly. 785 T. C. requireth that of others that he performeth not himself. 799 The cause why T. C. joineth against degrees in Divinity. 78 T. C. prefereth his judgement too Counsels. 365 T. C. answered by his own words. 263. 306. 307. 309. 371. T. C. appealeth from ancient authority. 547 The Doctrine of the Replier tendeth to Anabaptisme. 566. 567. 622. 626. The replier near to Donatisme. pag. 622 The replier put to the proof of his ceremonies. 614 The Replier tripped in his own net. pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak. pag. 609 The mark that the replier shoteth at. 56 The drift of the Replier. 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election. 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop. 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had government of 800. churches. 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostom. 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople. 413 ¶ Of these words (Take thou, eat thou) 600 ¶ Diversity of times require a diverse government. etc. 174. etc. ¶ Timothy's authority. 401 Timothy Bishop of Ephesus. 404 etc. 470. Timothy often absent from Ephesus. pag. 236 The jurisdiction that Timothy used in some respect civil. 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta. 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignity in ministers not Antichristian. 353 Honourable Titles of Bishops. 448 Men called by undeserved Titles. 70 71. Titles in the church under the law whereof God is not the express author. 304 ¶ The oath of the fellows of Trinity College in Cambridge. 1. 235. Trinity College and the fellows delivered from the slanderous Reply. 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessary as the suppression of errors. 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turks than to papists. pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanity. 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est. pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes. 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop. 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth. 796 ¶ University lands stand on the same pin with Bishops. 452. ¶ Use of things wickedly invented. pag. 273. etc. Private use of Idolatrous things forbidden. 272 Common use of Idolatrous things. page. 273 The use and abuse of things indifferent. 276 ¶ Usurp both in Ministering and preaching offend God. 520 W ¶ Wa oer cakes. 596 ¶ Watchmen and Shepherds. 220 237. ¶ The weak not offended with apparel. 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent things we aught to respect the weak. 258. ¶ Whoremongers in the visible Church. 1 ¶ Wickedness of men causeth not laws to be evil. 1 4 ¶ Widows. 6 ¶ Wine and Bread consecrated too Idols. 275. 276 ¶ Froward wits. 481 ¶ When a woman may preach Christ. 50 The cause of the Woman's absence from the Church after her deliverance. 53 The Woman's veil. 53 ¶ Strife about words proper to cue rell rs. 5 ¶ What it is to add, and to take away from the Word. 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsely, and 〈◊〉 Gods. 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 . The occasion and circumstances of men's writings must be considered. 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemn reading. pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeal of the Replier. 36 Preposterous Zeal. 48 The Printer to the Readers. I could not be, but that in so great a volume, some things should escape even those that are diligent and careful, I especially considering the speedy dispatch, and other circumstances: notwithstanding, if before you enter to read this book, you will take the pains to mend these faulces with your pen, the rest being lighter, will not greatly stay your course in reading, or otherwise altar the sense and meaning. Far you well. Pag. 2. line. 8. read plainly. Pag. 21. line. 22. for privately read priu lie. Pag. 50. line. ulti. for I speak not of their opinions, read, I speak not of all their opinions. Pag. 62. line. 38, read, in these. Pag. 67. line. 37. for or, read for. Pag. 78. line. 34. read, and seeking help of the Egyptians. Pag. 104. lin. 22. for abiunde, read, aliunde. Pag. 124. line. 45. read, Is homo. Pag. 191. line. 45. for word, read, words. Pag. 244. line. 13. read, in the evil day. Pag. 252. lin. 46. for any confession, read, my confession. pag. 253, lin. 7. read. Chap. 1. pag. 254. line. 13. read, chap. 1. and line. 48. read, Chap. 2. pag. 304. in the margin, read, whereof God. pag. 349. line. 29. for and, read, as. pag. 448. line. 32. read, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. pag. 468. lin. 46. for, his own, read, this one. pa. 481. lin. 32. for more, read, move pag. 508. lin. 1. read, encumber the Answerer. pag. 523. lin. 25. read, conventur. pag. 536. line. 20. for, ill, read, it. pag. 537. lin. 42. for those, read this. pag. 541. line. 21. for constrain, read restrain. pag. 661. line. 20. read thus, election of ministers is no correction of vice neither yet is the deciding. etc. pag. 663. line. 53. for there, read, therefore. pag. 665. in the margin, for eternal, read, external. page, 685. lin. 6. read, the. 11. division pag. 708. line. vit. for rather, read, either. pag. 722. line. ult. add this, heaping up of scriptures? show me one place in this epistle, yea in. pag. 731. line. 41. for service, read, sorrow. pag. 803. lin. 7. read, God's word. pag. 806. line. 4. read, of defiance salved. pag. 810. line. 41. read, fi , ¶ To the Church of England, and all those that love the truth in it, T. C. wisheth mercy and peace, from God our Father, and from our Lord jesus Christ. AS our men do more willingly go to warfare, and fight with greater courage against strangers, than against their Countrymen: so it is with me in this spiritual warfare. For I would have wished that this controversy had been with the Papists, or with either (if any can be) more pestilent and professed e mes of the Church: for that should have been less grief to writ, and more convenient to persuade that which I desire. For as the very name of an enemy doth kindle the desire of fight, and stirreth up the care of prepa ng the furniture for the war: So I can not tell how it cometh to pass, that the name of a brother acheth that courage, and abateth that carefulness which sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truth. But seeing the truth aught not to be forsaken for any man's cause▪ I enforced myself, considering that if the Lord might lay to my charge, that I was not for certain considerations, so ready as I aught to have been, to publish the truth, he might more justly condemn me, if being oppugned and slandered by others. I should not according to that measure which he hath dealt unto me, and for my small ability defend it, and deliver it from the evil report that some endeavour to bring upon it. An Answer to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Church of England. etc. IT doth not appear by the style and manner of writing used in this your book, that there remaineth any portion of such natural affection or brotherly love in you, as you would bear the world in hand, and seem to have by these your words: For if you should have written against the veriest Papist in the world, the vilest person, the ignorantest dolt, you could not have used a more spiteful and malicious, more slanderous and reproachful, more contemptuous and disdainful kind of writing, than you use throughout your whole book: and truly if you had not these two letters T. C. for your name, yet could I have easily conjectured by the haughtiness of the stile, and contemptuous speeches, who had been the author of the book, so well am I acquainted with your modesty, and such experience have I of your mildness. But it is well, for now such as before have thought that you had been sine fell, without gall, and that butter would not melt in your mouth, may perceive that all is not untrue that hath been reported of you. But what would they farther think if they should compare (you being that T. C. that I take you to be) your oath which you once took when you were admitted fellow into T. C. (Item me buic Collegio fidelem & benevolum The oath which the fellows of Tri. Col. in Cambridge do take at their 〈◊〉. futurum, ei & omnibus socijs ac discipulis, atque etiam magistro eiusdem, non solum dum in eo vixero, sed etiam postea pro virili cum opus sit benevolentiam & opem praestiturun. etc.) with this your good will uttered throughout your whole book? verily you might have answered as well as you have done, and had better regard both to your oath and to your brethren. But to let that pass, I doubt whether you mean good faith or not, when you would make us believe that you take us for brethren: for surely that doth not appear either by the first or. . Admonition, or by this your book, if a man consider the fierceness and fiery heat, almost in every line of them, uttered against us. In the second Admonition fol. 35. speaking of the Bishops which be now, & their confederates (as you call them) these words in most spiteful manner be uttered. And take them for better 2. Admo▪ fo. 35 who shall, they are no other but a remnant of Antichrist's brood, and God amend and forgive them, for else they bid battle to Christ and his Church, and it must bid defiance to them, till they yield. And I protest before the eternal God I take them so, and thereafter will use myself in my vocation, and many more too no doubt, which be careful of God his glory, and the Church's liberty, will use themselves against them, as the professed enemies of the Church of Christ, if they proceed in this course, and thus persecute as they do. And therefore these be but words of dalliance, when you say, that you cannot tell how it cometh to pass, that the name of a brother s acheth that courage and abateth that carefulness, which should be bestowed in the defence of the truth. In deed it aught to have abated your outrageous and disdayneful speeches, if old rancour and desire of revengement, had not got in you the upper hand. For whether you deal with me like a brother, or like an utter enemy, let the indifferent Reader judge. What truth you have on your side, and how it is oppugned and slandered by such as you mean, shall I trust appear, when your Reply is diligently compared with my Answer. If you had meant the truth in good earnest, you would have dealt more paynly in replying than you have done: you would have set down my book, as I have done the Admonition, that the Reader might have compared both together: and not have mangled it, depraved it, falsified it, and untruly collected of it as you have done, and almost nothing else, as (God willing) shall appear. God grant that it be not laid to your charge that you have hindered Truth, slandered it, and given the common adversaries occasion to speak evil of it. T. C. And as unto other parts of the Gospel, so soon as the Lord openeth a door for them to enter in, there is for the most part great resistance: So in this part concerning the government and discipline of the Church, which is the order which God hath left, as well to make the doctrine most effectual, and to give as it were a sharper edge unto the preaching of the word, as also to be a brickwall to keep it, and make it continued amongst us, I see there be sundry lets, which do as it were with weapons, stand up to stop the passage, and to hinder that it should not be settled amongst us. Io. Whitgifte. It is true that there is great resistance so soon as the Lord openeth any door to his Gospel, and that by sundry means, and divers kinds of men, as the stories of the Church from time to time declare, and daily experience teacheth: it is also true, that many under this pretence of right gonernment, and restoring of discipline, have and do disturb the Churches wherein the Gospel is sincerely preached, and the Sacraments rightly ministered, for further proof whereof, and avoiding of tediousness, I refer you to master Bullinger Lib. 6. cap. 10. adversus Anabaptist. To Master Caluine adversus Anabaptist. To Master Gualther in his Epistle dedicatory before his The pretence of restoring the right government, but a cloak for farther mischief. commentary upon the first to the Corinth's. Therefore this pretence of restoring the right government of the Church, with so great disquietness of the same, is but a cover to hide the further purposes of Satan the enemy of the peace and quietness of the Church. T. C. With the which albeit I wrestle hand to hand in this book, yet forasmuch as we have all drunk so deep of the cup of untruth, that we do not only stumble at blocks, which other men lay in our way, but oftentimes we gather lets unto ourselves in framing a prejudice against the truth: I thought good to note shortly what those stumbling blocks are, and although I cannot remove them, yet to give warning of them, and to lend my hand to the weaker and simpler sort to help to overstride them. Io. Whitgifte What these stumbling blocks are, and how you will help the weaker and simpler sort to overstride them, we shall see in the discourse that followeth. The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 2. The offences which are taken herein, be either in respect of the cause, or in respect of those which seek to defend, and promote the cause. The cause is charged first with newness and strangeness, then as author of confusion, and of disorder, and last of all as enemy to Princes, magistrates, and common wealths. For the first, besides that it is no sufficient challenge, to say it is new and strange, there is no cause why it should be counted new, which is confessed of those which mislike it, to have been for the most part used in the Apostles times, nor why it should be esteemed strange, which is used now far and near, of this & that side the sea, and of ne strangers, but of those which are of the household of faith. And it shall more largely appear in this book, that this is no innovation, but a renovation, and the doctrine not new, but renewed, no stranger, but born in Zion, whereunto (it being before unjustly banished) aught now of right to be restored. Io. Whitgifte. Snrely the offences are taken both in respect of the people, and of the cause: Neither is either the people, or the cause charged with any thing by me, but I am ready either to prove it, or to retract it. The antiquity of it, and the strangeness we must refer to be judged of the Reader, when we have both written what we can. In the mean time I suppose that your devices with the circumstances, will appear not only not to be ancient, but very strange and lately devised: although in such matters antiquity is not sufficient to prove a thing convenient, except it agree with the circumstances of time, place, and people, much less necessary, unless it be in matters pertaining to salvation, as shall hereafter (God willing) more largely be declared: where also it will appear, that many of your assertions tend not to renovation, but innovation, and that they were never either born in Zion, or meet for Zion. The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 3 And of confusion and disorder it is yet more untruly accused. For justice may be as well accused for doing wrong, as this doctrine, for bringing in disorder, whose whole work is to provide, that nothing be done out of place, out of time, or otherwise than the condition of every man's calling will bear: which putteth the people in subjection under their governors, the governors in degree and order one under an other, as the Elder underneath the Pastor, and the Deacon underneath the Elder, which teacheth that a particular Church shall give place unto a provincial Synod, where many Churches are, and the provincial to a national, and likewise that, unto the general, if any, be, and all unto Christ and his word. When on the contrary part, those which stand against this doctrine, are thereby compelled to bring into the Church great confusion, and marvelous disorder, whilst the Pastor's office is confounded with the deacons, whilst women do minister the Sacraments which is lawful only for men, whilst private men do that which belongeth unto public people, whilst public actions are done in private places, whilst the Church is shuffled with the common wealth: whilst civil matters are handled by Ecclesiastical people: and Ecclesiastical by those which be Civil: and to be short, whilst no officer of the Church keepeth his standing, and one member doth take upon it the office of an other. Which things as they hazard the army, and destroy the body, so they do presently hinder, and will shortly (if remedy be not provided) utterly overthrow the Church. And therefore unless good order be in that which was brought into the Church by Popery: and confusion in that which was left unto the Church by the Apostles, and that it be order, that public actions should be done in private places by private people, and by women that is appointed to be done by men, and confusion when the contrary is observed: and finally, unless order have an other definition or nature, than hitherto hath been read or heard of, there is no cause why this doctrine which contemeth the discipline and government of the Church, should be thus shamefully slandered, with confusion and disorder. Io. Whitgifte. It will fall out I think, that your opinions now in question, tend in deed to Where unto their opinions tend. confusion: respect neither time, place, nor people: confound degrees, bring such in contempt as be in authority: make the ignorant subject lofty, & arrogant, take from Princes their due authority in Ecclesiastical matters: when as present experience and the peace and quietness of this Church, since the beginning of the queens majesties reign (until you and your company began to broach these your fantasies) declareth, that the doctrine maintained by those whom you count as your adversaries, is most agreeable to order, preserveth peace, keepeth every man in his degree and calling. And truly if the government of the Church now allowed by public authority, be compared with your new devised policy, the difference of them both will easily appear. For I pray you tell me, how many of you which have been permitted as The admonitors agreed not in their go vernment. preachers in several places, have consented in one kind of government, nay, which of you have not troubled, not only the Town where you have remained, but the whole Country reunde about also? so that undoubtedly though you be not Anabaptists (as I hope you be not) yet doth this property of there's most aptly agree unto you that wheresoever you come, you make contention, and kindle the fire of discord, take it as you list, experience doth teach it to be so, Whether we confound the Pastor's office with the Deacons or not, otherwise than it hath been in the Apostles time, and primative Church: whether private men women, civil or Ecclesiastical people, do more than they aught to do or not, to be short, whether order according to the true nature and definition thereof be observed or not, I shall have better occasion hereafter to discuss. Now my meaning is to answer words with words, although in no such deriding and opprobrious manner. The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 4. For the third point which is, that it is an enemy to Magistrates, and the common wealth: if it be enough to accuse without proof, say, and to show no reason, innocency itself shall not be guiltless. This doctrine was in times past, even by their confession, which writ against it, a friend unto Princes and Magistrates, when Princes and magistrates were enemies unto it: And can it now be an enemy unto Princes and magistrates, which are friends unto it? It helped and upholded the common wealths, which were governed by tyrants, and can it hinder those, which are governed by godly Princes? And in what is it an enemy to Princes and magistrates? Note the variance, set down the enmity. If the question be, whether Princes and Magistrates be necessary in the Church, it holdeth, that the use of them is more than of the Sun, without the which the world can not stand. If it be of their honour, it holdeth, that with humble submission of mind, the outward also of the body, yea the body itself, and all that it hath, if need so require, are to be yielded, for the defence of the Prince, and for that service, for the which the Prince will use them unto, for the glory of God, and maintenance of the Common wealth. Io. Whitgifte. These be but glorious words, the truth whereof shall appear, when we come to the more particular declaration of the several points: and if we accuse without proof, say and show no reason, take your remedy against us as slanderers, and bring us to our trial. In deed the doctrine of the Gospel, which is the doctrine of salvation, hath been, is, and will be a friend to Princes and Magistrates, yea though they persecute the same: But you have not yet proved your doctrine now in question, to be that doctrine of the Gospel & of salvation. These words might well have been spoken of the Gospel against Mahometisme, judaisme, Papisme, but you do injury to that doctrine of life, when you confound with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies, and the kind of government, which all being external things, I think not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis, of necessity unto salvation. you have here said nothing of your doctrine, but that which the Arrians, the Pelagians, the Papists, the Turks, yea almost the Anabaptistes will say of there's: for many even of the Anabaptistes confess, that Magistrates be necessary, but yet not to be lawful for Christians to be Magistrates: and for proof thereof they use divers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleged (and you allowed) against superiority in the clergy. And (except I be deceived) you come very near to them, for you will have the Ecclesiastical and civil government so distinct, that they can by no means concur in one and the self same people: whereby you take from the Civil Magistrate authority in Ecclesiastical matters, and by that means spoil him of the one half of his jurisdiction. But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministered by you. In the mean time, I admonish the Reader to believe your words no farther than he shall see just proof of them. T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due unto the Prince, and unto the Magistrate, it answereth that all obedience in the Lord, is to be rendered: and if it come to pass, that any other be asked, it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not, in preferring obedience to the great God, before that which is to be given to mortal man. It so resisteth, that it submitteth the body and goods of those that profess it, to abide that which God will have them suffer in that case. Io. Whitgifte. All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospel, but not of the doctrine in controversy amongst us: and verily this is not plain dealing, to make the reader believe that we do withstand the doctrine of the Gospel, when we only resist your contentions about external matters, whereby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered, and the Church of Christ disturbed. T. C. And if it be showed, that this is necessary for the Church, it can not be but profitable for the common wealth: nay the profit of it may easily appear, for that by the censures and discipline of the Church, as they are in this book described, men are kept back from committing of great disorders, of stealing, adultery, murder, etc. whilst the smaller faults of lying and uncomely 〈◊〉, of hard and choleric speeches, which the magistrate both not commonly punish, be corrected. Io. Whitgifte. If it be necessary for the present state of the Church, it is also profitable for the present state of the common wealth: for I perceive no such distinction of the common wealth & the church, that they should be counted as it were two several bodies governed with divers laws & divers Magistrates, except the Church be linked with an heathenish & idolatrous common wealth. The civil Magistrate may not take upon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take upon him. such Ecclesiastical functions as are only proper to the Minister of the Church, as preaching of the wordé, administering of the Sacraments, excommunicating, and such like, but that he hath no authority in the Church, to make and execute laws for the Church, and in things pertaining to the Church, as Discipline, Ceremonies, etc. (so that he do nothing against the word of God) though the Papists affirm it never so stoutly, yet is the contrary most true, and sufficiently proved by men of notable learning, as Master jewel Bishop of Salisbury, Master Horn Bishop of Winchester, Master Nowell Deane of Paul's, in their books written against Papists holding your assertion, to whose painful and learned writings I res rre the Reader, for the avoiding of too much prolixity. I do not well understand what is ment by these words, Nay the profit of it may easily appear, for that by the censures and discipline of the Church, as they are in this book described, men are kept back from committing of greater disorders of stealing, adultery, murder. etc. whilst the smaller faults, of lying, and uncomely jesting, of hard and choleric speeches, which the Magistrate doth not commonly punish, be corrected: Do you not think the punishment for stealing, and murder, to be sharp enough? or do you think that the fear of the Discipline of the Church will more terrify men from these vices, than the fear of death? Or do you doubt whether the Civil Magistrate hath Authority to appoint any other punishment for these and such like crimes, than is prescribed in the judicial Law of Moses? For this is now called in controversy, and beginneth to be table talk: or are you persuaded, that the Civil Magistrate either may not, or will not correct lying, uncomely jesting, hard and choleric speeches? Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Church, men would rather be terrified from the greater crimes, than they will be if they be punished with civil correction? Truly I think that the civil Magistrate hath sufficient authority to provide remedies for all such mischiefs, without altering the state, either of the church, or of the common wealth. But let the indifferent Reader judge, whether you go about to wring the sword out of the Magistrates hand or no: or at the lest, so to order the matter, that it be never drawn out to punish vice, but with the consent and at the appointment of you and your signiory. T. C. And undoubtedly, seeing that the church and common wealth, do embrace and kiss one an other, & seeing they be like unto Hypocrates twins which were sick together & well together, laughed together, and weped together, and always like affected: it can not be, but that the breaches of the common wealth, have proceeded from the hurts of the Church, and the wants of the one, from the lacks of the other: Neither is it to be hoped for, that the common wealth shall flourish, until the Church be reform. Io. Whitgifte. All this I grant (and God be thanked therefore) if we shall measure the state of the church, with the flourishing estate & wise government of the common wealth, we shall have no great cause to complain, but to burst out into most hearty thanks unto God for the same, and most humbly desire the continuance thereof. I do not say that the Church is without fault, for than should I affirm an impossibility, but I think the faults that are, rather to be in the people, than in the laws, rather in the governors, than in the kind of government: neither would I have men (either Puritans, Donatists, or Anabaptists) to dream of such a Church, as Plato did of a Common wealth, Aristotle of felicity, and the Stoics of their just man: much lesie to make contention in the Church, or divide themselves from the same, if all things go not according to their fantasy: for than shall they never be quiet with any Church, not not long with that Church, which they themselves do presently best like of. Surely if this rule be certain, that the Common wealth shall not flourish The rule of T. C. returned against himself. until the Church be reform, than this may be a good token unto us, that this Church of England is reform, because the Common wealth doth flourish. Neither do I speak this to flatter the Magistrates, and to sew quisshions under their elbows (as it pleaseth some to report) but I speak it before God, I speak it as I think: and the rather I utter it, to deliver both the state of the Church, and also of the common wealth of England, from the unthankful, unnatural, and slanderous tongues of such as seek to deface and deprave them both. I will not defend the vice, the negligence, the security of any man, I shall be as bold and as ready to tell even the best thereof in time and place (as occasion is ministered, and my duty shall require) as any of those shall be, which would seem to be farthest from all kind of flattery. T. C. And it is also certain, that as the Church shall every day more and more decay, until it be made even with the ground, unless the walls be builded, & the ruins repaired: S the weight of it (if it fall) will either quite pull down the Common wealth, or leave it such as none which fear God will take any pleasure in it. For seeing Solomon sayeth, that by wisdom (which is the word of God) Kings do govern, and Princes do bear rule: it can not be, but as that wisdom is either contemned, or neglected, or otherwise abridged of her free and full course, so Princes and Magistrates, and consequently their common wealths, either go to wrack, or decay, or at the lest, want so much of the flourishing estate, as there wanteth of that word of God which he hath appointed to be their stay. And howsoever (before the coming of our saviour Christ) amongst the Athenians, Lacedæmonians, and Romans, and since his coming in dyners' places where this wisdom hath not been herded of, there may seem to have been some shows of either flourishing, or tolerable common wealths, yet neither have those endured, but according to the prophecy of Daniel, have been broken all to pieces: so that there is not so much of them left, as a sheared to fetch fire in: neither yet can those kingdoms which have the knowledge of the Gospel revealed unto them, look for that long suffering and patience of God towards them wherewith those ignorant kingdoms have been born with. For as the benefit is greater towards these, than towards the other, so is the judgement swifter against them, than against the other: if that grace which was not offered unto them (being offered unto these) be refused, and made light of. And in these especially is, and shall be fulfilled that which the Prophet Esay says, that it shall be in the later days that every nation and kingdom, which shall not serve the Church, shall be destroyed. As of the other side, the full and whole placing of our saviour Christ in his throne, is the perpetual stay, and stayed perpetuity of all Princes in their seats. Io. Whitgifte. All this is true, for if any nation shall refuse the word of God offered unto it, or not suffer Christ wholly to be placed in his throne, no doubt God will pour upon that nation his plagues, as he hath done upon all other that have run into the same contempt. But would you make your reader believe, that because this Church of England doth not admit your kind of government, therefore the walls of it be broken, the word of God contemned, and Christ not suffered wholly to be placed in his throne? We admit the Gospel wholly, and in governments the magistrates take upon them no office only proper to Christ, neither yet any authority which is not by the word of God limited unto them. These words might aptly have been spoken if you had written against the state of the Church in France, or any such like kingdom as refuseth the Gospel offered unto it, and most cruelly persecuteth the true professors of the same. I do not excuse such in the Church of England as contemn the word of God, neither do I justify the whole Church for not receiving the Gospel offered, by bringing forth the fruits thereof as it aught to do: But I exhort every man, from the highest to the lowest, even in the bowels of jesus Christ, to have a better regard thereunto, lest it be said unto us, as it is said unto the Church of Ephesus, Apoc. 2. Sed babeo adversum te, quod charitatem tuam pristinam. etc. I have some thing against Apoc. 2. thee, because thou hast forsaken thy former love. etc. And to the Hebrues. 6: For the earth Hebr. 6 which drinketh in rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed; receiveth blessing of God. But that which beareth thorns and briars, is reproved, and is near unto cursing, whose end is to be burned. For surely even these contentions stirred up in the Church where the Gospel is truly preached, are arguments that we be void of love and peace, the chief and principal tokens and fruits of the Gospel. T C. And therefore if this book shall come into the hands of any, that have access unto her Majesty, the head of this common wealth, or unto her most honourable counsatle, the shoulders thereof, my humble suit and hearty request, in the presence of God is, that according as their callings will suffer them, they will put them in remembrance of these things, which otherwise they know better than I, and that they would set before them the example of Moses, who was not contented to have brought the people out of Egypt, * T. C. maketh greater accopt . of the governmet than of the Gospel itself▪ for he 〈◊〉 the state of this Church, to he wand ing in the wilderns . but would very feign also, have conducted them into the land of Canaan, that is, would gladly have been the instrument of the full and whole deliverance of the people. And seeing that the Lord doth offer them this honour which he denied unto his servant Moses, that they would not make themselves guilty of so great unthankfulness, as will follow of the forsaking of so incomparable a benefit. That her Majesty especially, and her most honourable counsel, would set before them the example of David, who although he made a great reformation of those things which were defaced by Saul, yet he was not content, that the Ark of the Lord should dwell under a Tabernacle, and therefore desired marvelously, that he might build the temple unto the Lord And seeing that the Lord hath granted unto them which he denied unto his servant, that they would not be narrow and strait in themselves, seeing the Lord openeth the treasures of his goodness so largely unto them. That they would set before them the zeal of Zerubbabel, who although he had (after the return out of captivity) abolished idolatry, laid the foundations of the Temple, and set up an altar unto God, whereupon the morning and evening sacrifice was daily made: yet being admonished by the Prophet Aggey, that God would not be pleased, unless the Temple also were fully builded, did (all fear of the nations round about, and other business laid aside) 'cause it forthwith, and with all possible speed to be made an end of. Finally, that it would please them to consider the examples of josias, Ezechias, and jehoshaphat, who are therefore, to their everlasting commendation praised ised of the holy Ghost, for that they made whole, and through reformations, where as the honour of other some (albeit they were otherwise good) is stained, and carrieth the mark of their imperfection, by this and like exception, that although they did such good things, and such, * That is, they suffered manifest Idolatry: where with you can by n means 〈◊〉 thy Chur he of England, and therefore your application 〈◊〉 unfie. yet they left also such and such undone. Io. Whitgifte. And why is not her Majesty the head of this Church also, as well as of this common wealth? For I must give thee to understand (good Reader) that T. C. maketh T. C. joineth with the Papists concerning the authority of the civil Magistrate in ecclesiastical matters. the Church, and the common wealth two such distinct and several bodies, as must of necessity, have distinct and several magistrates and gonernors, and that the Civil magistrate hath not to meddle in Ecclesiastical matters, except his aid be required by the Pastor and Signiory, or such like cases, wherein he flatly joineth with the Papists, who say, that the civil Magistrate hath only Potestatem facti, and not juris, that is, authority to execute such things as they decree, but not authority to make any laws in Ecclesiastical matters. And lest you should think that I feign this, consider the whole scope of his book, and particularly his words before mentioned in this leaf, where as he accuseth the government of this Church now in practice of confusion, because civil matters are handled by Ecclesiastical people, and Ecclesiastical Sect. 3 matters by those which be civil, also that which he speaketh of this matter f 144. and Fo. 144. sect. 2. 154. and especially that which the second Admonition hath, fo. 8. 9 57 60. I know not Fol. 154. sect. 1. 2. 3. how he could have made a greater difference, betwixt the Church and the common wealth in those places where the Princes be enemies unto the Church. In deed true it is, that in the Apostles time, Princes did not meddle in causes Ecclesiastical, except it were by persecuting. etc. For they were then infidels, not Christians, persecutors, not professors: And therefore if all aught of necessity to be reduced to the form of government used in the Apostles time, Christian Princes must be delivered from that care, and be content to forego that portion of their authority. But hereof more in the due place, this I only here note, that you may the better consider the same in the perusing of his book. The rest of that which is contained in this part, may have some use, if it be rightly applied: for godly princes have to follow such godly examples, and to be diligent in reforming such things as are to be reform, either in substance, circumstances or people. T. C. Which I do not speak, as though we had not already, by her Majesty especially, and afterward by their honour's hands received a singular benefit, but that we having the whole, might have our hearts and mouths filled with the praise of God, and continued the possession of that which we have, which otherwise for our unthankful refusal, shall be taken away. Wherein as we have especial regard, that the name of God should be magnified, not by us alone, but by our posterity unto the world's end: So it is not the smallest part of our care, that her Majesty and your honours, to whom we are so deeply bond, and of whom we have received so singular benefits of peace, and preaching of the Gospel, might with your successions continued and flourish amongst us for ever: But the desire of reformation, and fear of God's heavy wrath to come upon us, hath carried me further herein than I purposed. I will therefore make an end of these points, considering that the untruth of these accusations, of newness and strangeness, of disorder and confusion, of being enemy to princes and common wealths, shall better appear in the discourse of this Book. Io. Whitgifte. These be smooth words to win credit by: but they agree not with the rest of your book, wherefore I doubt not but that they will be considered of accordingly. I would to God that you did in deed acknowledge that singular benefit that you have received by her Majesty and their honours, then truly would you have showed yourself more thankful than you have done, neither would you have maintained libels which seek utterly to deface all that is done, as will manifestly hereafter by further examination appear. Whatsoever accusations have been made of your doctrine, if they be not justified, then let the authors of them suffer the shame. Surely you have as slenderly answered these accusations hitherto, as may be. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Among the offences taken by occasion of those, which prefer the doctrine, this is the chiefest, that comparison being made betwixt those excellent men, both in virtue and learning, which suffered for the testimony of the truth, and between us, of the one side: Also between the archbishops, Bishops, Deans, and Archdeacon's, which now are, and us on the other side: it seemeth unto many that it is not like to be good, which was not found out by those excellent personages, and which being now propounded, by men of no great show, is either misliked, or at the lest, by no open approbation allowed, of those which carry greater countenances, and be in greater dignities. Unto the first, although answer is made more at large, in this book, yet I will add thus much, that as for my part, I coufesse myself, to be a great deal inferior unto the lest of them: so the omitting of these necessary things, aught to be no more prejudice against them, or against those that preterre them, than the omitting of the celebration of the feast of Tabernacles, so many hundredth years, by so many good high priests, in the reigns of so many good kings, was prejudicial unto the ministers, which caused it to be celebrated, when the people returned out of their captivity: for it appeareth in the book of Nehemias, that the feast of Tabernacles, which was commanded of 8. Chap. the Lord to be celebrated every year, was * This is a manifest untruth, as shall appear. not celebrated from the days of josua, the son of Nun, until the return of the people from their captivity. And yet were there in this space, dysiers both judges and kings, both priests and Prophets singularly zealous and learned. If therefore the omitting of so necessary a thing, so many hundredth years, by such godly, zealous, learned people, could not bring any prescription, against the truth: the lack of this necessary discipline, by the space of. 30. years, through the oversight of a few (if they be compared with that multitude) aught not to be alleged, to keep it out of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. Surely the inequality of the people, and great difference betwixt them, both in godliness, zeal, learning, experience, and age, (though it seem a small matter too some) yet it aught to be well considered: for it is well known, that the first sort of men here mentioned, did excel in all those forenamed qualities, and have continued in the same even to the death: and the latter sort many of them singular in learning, zeal, wisdom, & experience, having also knowledge of other Churches reformed more than you (howsoever it pleaseth you and some of your companions undutifully to contemn them) wherefore as I said, this comparison is something, and not so lightly to be esteemed, as you would make the reader believe. For my part I think the worse of you, because you think so well of yourselves, that you dare be so bold, as not only to compare yourselves with them, but to prefer yourselves before them. As for this Humility, and abasing yourself in saying, that you confess yourself to be a great deal inferior to the lest of them: He that will take pains but to peruse your book, shall easily understand that you think nothing less. For truly your stile is so big and lofty, and your taunts such towards them and others, that a man would think you not only to have cast off all modesty, but utterly to have forgotten all good manners, civility, and duty. But it is Rhetoric common to you with other of your companions, as appeareth in divers places of the first Admonition, and in the second throughout the whole, which I would wish the reader to consider, that he may thereby partly know, and discern your spirit. But say you, the omitting of these necessary things, aught to be no more prejudice against them. etc. Surely if you can prove that they have omitted any thing expressly against the commandment of God, then is it true that you say, but if you cannot do so, then do you unjustly charge these learned and godly martyrs. But what if you have abused the place in the. 8. Chapter of Nehemias? What if you understand it not truly? The feast of Tabernacles was not so long omitted. What if there can be no such thing gathered of it, as you would make the reader believe? Shall I triumph over you and say that either you have not read it, or you do not understand it, or that you willingly and wittingly abuse it, or that you received it in some notes from others, as it pleaseth you to deal with me, when no such occasion is offered unto you? I will not so requited you: But this only I say, that you have not set down the true sense of that place: For the meaning is not that the feasts of Tabernacles was The true interpretation of the place alleged out of the 8. of Nehemias. not celebrated from the time of josua the son of Nun, unto that day which was almost a thousand years, but that it was not celebrated in that manner, that is with such solemnity, so great rejoicing and gladness, as the very words themselves declare, both in the Hebrew, text and in the best translations. And so doth Pelican expound that place, who says, that these words since the time of josua the son of Nun. etc. be spoken Pelican in 8. Nebe. in the respect of the greatness of the joy which then happened to the people. Lyra also expoundeth the same place much after the same sort, and presupposeth nothing less, than that the feasts were omitted all this time: for he affirmeth that they were much more solemnly and with greater cost celebrated in the times of David and Solomon: Lyra in 8. Nebe. therefore, says he, the comparison is secundum quid, &. proportionaliter (for I use his words) because in all this time since josua, it is not read, that the people were so generally gathered together in Jerusalem, as we read in the beginning of this Chapter that they were at this time: and again he says that it was more for the people newly returned from captivity, to celebrated such a feast with that solemnity, than it was to mighty kings and people being in prosperity, and settled in a kingdom, to celebrated the same day with much more cost and solemnity. I might allege other expositiors to the same effect: neither have I read any that doth expound that place otherwise. The like kind of speech we have. 2. Reg. 23. where it is said. That there was no passouer 2. Reg. 23. held like that (which josias held) from the days of the judges, that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, and the kings of juda: which is only spoken in respect of the multitude, and zeal of the people, with the great preparation: and not because the passouer was not all this time celebrated. The like is also used. 2. Chro. 2. Chro. 30. 26. 30. vers. 26. even so it is in this place: for there is no doubt, but that the feast of Tabernacles was celebrated both in David and Salomons time: and it is manifest that it was celebrated not long before this time, as it is in plain words expressed. 1. Esdras 1. Esra. cap. 3. vers. 4. Ca 3. vers. 4. wherefore I might make much ado at this oversight of yours, or rather wilful depraving of the scriptures, if I were delighted with that kind of confuting. But though my learning be small, and that I am ignorant both of Logic and Philosophy, and have read so little in Divinity, and you so mighty a man in the Scriptures, and so profound in all kind of knowledge, as you persuade yourself to be, yet you must be content here to be admonished of me, that you have abused this place, and that it serveth not for your turn, to prove those godly men, which suffered martyrdom in Duéene Mary's time, to have permitted any thing in this Church of England (after it was reform) expressly contrary to the commandment and word of God, as you untruly report, So many good high priests in the reygnes of so many good kings, so many hundredth years to have omitted the feasts of Tabernacles, expressly by God commanded. Although I do not deny, but such men also may sometimes be overseen in some points, but neither can you prove that they were deceived in any substantial point of doctrine, neither yet if they were, is this place aptly or truly alleged. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 8. The dignity also, and high estate of those, which are not so earnest in this cause, can not hinder it, if we consider, the wisdom of God, almost from time to time, to consist, and to show itself most in setting forth his truth, by the simpler, and weaker sort, by contemptible, and weak instruments, 1. Cor. I by things of no value, to the end, that when all men see the baseness, and rudeness of the instrument, they might the more wonder at the wisdom, and power of the artificer, which with so weak, and foolish instruments, bringeth to pass so wise and mighty things. And if men will with such an eye of flesh, look upon matters, they shall condemn that excellent reformation, made under the Godly king * josias is here alleged for Ezechias josias, which the holy Ghost doth so highly commend: In which it is witnessed, that the (1) This place is not right interpreted. Levites, 2. Chro. which were a degree under the priests, were more forward, and more zealous, than the priests 29. Chap. themselves. Yea wherein it is witnessed, that the people were yet more earnest, and more willing, 2. Chro. than either the Levites, or the priests, which thing, if ever, is verefyed in our time. For when (2) A manifest flattery, and the scripture abused to colour it. I consider the zeal for religion which showeth itself in many, as well of the nobility, 30. Chap. and gentry of this realm, as of the people, their care to continued it, and advance it, their voluntary charges to maintain it, their liberality towards them, which bend themselves that way, as I do thereby conceive some hope, of the favourable countenance, and continuance of God's goodness towards us: So I cannot be but ashamed of mine own slackensse, and afraid of the displeasure of the Lord, for that those whose proper work this is especially, and which should bear the standard, and carry the torch unto the rest, are so cold, and so careless in these matters of the Lord Io. Whitgifte. I know none among us, which in the respect of his dignity, and high estate, seeketh or desireth to be preferred or believed before you, but in the respect of the cause, which is the peace of the Church, suppression of schisms, and the truth itself. No man denieth but God of his wisdom in the beginning of the Church of Christ, poured God useth not the simple only, or always to set forth his truth. out his gifts more plenteously upon the simpler, contemptible and weaker sort, and that he choosed for his Apostles fishermen, tollegatherers, and ignorant people, jest that should be ascribed to the wit, eloquence, and learning of man, which cometh only of the goodness, might, and power of God, as the Apostle plainly declareth. 1. Cor. 1. &. 2. But will you therefore conclude, that truth, zeal, and godliness remaineth either only or especially in the simple, rude, and ignorant sort? and make this your conclusion, the learned, the honourable, men of great countenance or knowledge be of this or that opinion, Ergo it is not true? Or the simple, rude, and ignorant people are thus and thus persuaded, Ergo they must be followed, or to the like effect? verily this were to reason as the Franciscan friars do to excuse their ignorance: Apostoli nesciebant literas, ergo Franciscanis non est opus literis. And like some other fantastical people also, which think that no learned, rich, or honourable man shall be saved, but only beggars, and such as be ignorant, as master Gualther testifieth in his commentaries upon. 1. Cor. 1. Gual. in. 1. Cor. I hom. 7. You know (as I suppose) that this place of the. 1. Cor. 1. quoted in your margin, doth not gather any such conclusion, that therefore the doctrine is not true, because Princes, nobles, wise and learned men etc. do allow of it: or therefore it is true, because it pleaseth the simple, rude, and ignorant people. For Nicodemus, joseph, Lazarus Betha: Sergius Paulus, Dionysius Areopagita, Crispus, Gaius, Erastus, with divers others, were politic, wise, wealthy, learned, and honourable men: and the Prophet Esay saith. That kings and Queens shall be the nursing fathers and mothers, the defenders and maintainers of the Church. And Bullinger in his commentaries upon Esay. 49. this place doth thus expound it: He speaketh of the first calling especially, wherein fishermen Bull. in. 1. Co. I and Idiots were especially called to the preaching of the Gospel. For no man can deny, but that after the Gospel was confirmed in the world, the best learned embraced the truth. For first shepherds declared that Christ was born: then the Magi, that is, the wise men of the East, came to salute him with gifts. Wherefore I pray you let not the wealth, calling, or dignity which you think we have, prejudice our cause. The simple and plain meaning of the place is, that God in his electing to eternal life, hath neither respect to nobility, learning, riches, or any such thing. I might here again trip you for alleging josias in stead of Ezechias, and say that you had not read the Scriptures, or that you used other men's notes, and so dally with you, as you use to do with others: But I will leave such kind of gibes to brabbling Sophisters in the schools, & think that it was some light oversight, which in such a case may sometimes happen to him that is most circumspect. Your collection upon that place. 2. Chro. 29. and. 30. I can not as yet allow, until I be better instructed therein: for whereas you say that it is there witnessed that the Levites which were a degree under the Priests were more forward and more zealous than the Priests themselves, and the people more earnest and more willing than either the Levites or the Priests: I see not how you can gather any such thing out of either of these two Chapters: for if there be any sentence to gather it of in the. 29. Chap. it is the. 34. verse: which although in some translation, it seem to insinuate some such thing, yet if credit may be given to those that be notable learned men, and very well seen in the Hebrew song, the meaning of that place is nothing less. Pelican translateth the words thus: Levitae quip faciliori ritu sanctificantur quam sacerdotes: For the Levites were sooner or easier sanctified than the priests which he expoundeth more plainly in his Pel. in. 2. Chr. 29. commentaries, saying: Intelligitur sacerdotum numerum imminutum fuisse. etc. It is to be understanded that the number of the priests was diminished which should have sufficed for to prepare the sacrifices, and therefore they desired the help of the Levites, that all things might be done more diligently: there was also another cause of the Levites help, for the sanctifying of the temple, and the preparation of the sacrifice was so suddenly commanded, that many of the priests had not time to sanctify themselves according to the law, which required a certain space for the same, and the Levites might be sanctified with less ado, and in shorter time. And surely even the very circumstances of the place doth prove this to be the true understanding of it: For these be the words that immediately go before. But the priests were too few and were not able to fleay all the burned offerings, therefore their brethren the Levites did help them, until they had ended the work, and until other priests were sanctified. 2. Chro. 29. 34. Your second assertion that is, that the people were yet more earnest, and more willing than either the Levites or the priests, I think is grounded upon the. 15. verse of the. 30. Chapter, which is this: Afterwards they slay the passouer the fourteen day of the second month: and the priests and Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought the burned offerings into the house of the Lord Truly I see not how you can collect any 2. Chro. 30. 15. such thing out of these words: I know that some do gather such a note of that place, But I do not understand the reason of it. Howsoever it be, and howsoever you abuse the scriptures to justify yourselves, I doubt not but that a great number of those, whom you contemme and seek to deface, do presently, and will to their lives end, show that zeal of religion, that diligence in their calling, that uprightness in conversation which becometh them, and which they are well assured pleaseth God: neither do I in so saying condemn the godly zeal of any, but I admonish all to take heed of a preposterous and affectionated zeal, such as is spoken of in the. 30. Page of the second edition of my answer to the Admonition. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 9 And I humbly crave, and most earnestly desire of those which bore the chief titles in the ecclesiastical functions, that as we do in part correct our negligence by the example of the forwardness, and readiness of the people, so they would suffer themselves to be put in remembrance of their ducties by us which are underneath them, and that they would not neglect this golden gift of god's grace, in admonishing them, by cause the Lord doth offer it in a treane or earthen vessel, but that they would first consider, that as Naaman the Syrian prince, received great commodity, by following the advice of his maid, and after, of his man: And Abigael being a wise woman, singular profit, by obeying the counsel of her servant: so they may receive of ten-times profitable advertisement, by those which are in lower places than they themselves be. Then let them think, that as Naaman was nevertheless noble, for obeying the voice of his servants, nor abigael nevertheless wise, because she listened unto the words of her man, so it cannot diminish their true honour, nor impair the credit of their godly and uncounterfaite wisdom, if they give care unto that, which is spoken by their inferiors. Io. Whitgifte. This humility appeareth to be counterfeit by the opprobrious speeches, and great contempt that you show towards them in the rest of this book. What diligence you are provoked unto, by the forwardness and readiness of the people, I know not, but every man may see you are ready to shake off your calling upon every light occasion: Neither will you preach in those places where the Gospel hath not been so well planted, but there only you loiter, where there is less need, and where you easily may make stirs, and move contention, as experience sufficiently teacheth. I know none, not not of the best, that refuseth to hear either you or any other modestly admonishing, neither have you any cause hereof to complain, but your stomachs are such, and your arrogancy so great, that you passingly abuse yourselves toward those, whom indeed you aught to reverence, and with all duty obey. I marvel that you will confess yourself to be underneath them, seeing you so cry out against superiority in the clergy, and claim such interest in equality: but I may not stand in answering words. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 10. And last of all, that as, if they had not listened unto those simple people, the one had perished in his leprosy, the other had been slain, with her family: * This is glorious talk builded upon a false ground. even so, if they shall for any worldly respect of honour, riches, or fear of being accounted, either unadvised in taking this course, or light, or inconstant, in forsaking it, stop their cares against this loving admonition of the Lord, they provoke his anger, not against their health, or against their life, but against their own souls, by exercising of unlawful authority, and by taking unto them partly such things, as belong by no means unto the Church, and partly which are common unto them, with the whole Church, or else with other the ministers, and governors of the same: whereof I beseech them humbly to take the better heed, for that the judgement of the Lord will be upon a great part of them, by so much the heavier, by how much, they have not only believed the Gospel, but also have received this grace of god, that they should suffer for it. So that if they will neither take example of divers their superiors the nobles of this realm, nor be admonished by us, of the lower sort (wherein we hope better of them) yet they would remember their former tunes, and correct themselves, by themselves, and seeing they have been content, for the Gospel's sake to quit the necessary things of this life, they would not think much, for the discipline, which is no small part of the Gospel (having both things necessary and commodious) to part from that, which is not only in them superfluous, and hath nothing but a vain ostentation (which will vanish as the shadow) but also is hurtful unto them, and pernicious unto the Church, which thing I do more largely, and plainly lay forth in this Book. Io. Whitgifte. Surely if they do for any such respects refuse any admonition given unto them, for the avoiding of such things as be unlawful, and as they unjustly retain, than no doubt they are worthy of great reprehension: but if your Admonition be not loving, but spiteful, not brotherly, but unchristian, nay no Admonition in deed, but a very scolding and uncharitable railing, if the things you would have them forsake, be both lawful and convenient for them to use, and contrariwise the things that you move them unto, tend to confusion, and overthrow of the Gospel, and of the state (as they do) then truly have they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church, and according to their office and duty provide a convenient remedy for them: knowing that it is the extreme refuge of Satan, when by other means he cannot, then to seek the overthrow of the Gospel, thorough contention about external things. The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II another exception against the favourers of this cause, is taken for that they propound it out of time, which is that the Jews said, that the time was not yet come to build the Lords house: but it is known what the Prophet answered. And if no time were unseasonable, in that kind of material building, wherein there be some times (as of summer) more opportune and fit than others: how can there be any untimely building, in this spiritual house, where, as long as it is called to day, men are commanded to further this work. And as for those which say, we come to late, & that this should have been done in the beginning, and can not now be done without the overthrow of all, for mending of a piece: they do little consider, that S. Paul compareth that which is good in the building unto gold, and silver, and precious stones, and that which is evil, laid upon the foundation, unto stubble and hay, and wood. Likewise therefore as the stubble, & the hay, & the wood be easily by the fire consumed, without any loss unto the gold, or silver, or precious stones: so the corrupt things in this building, may be easily taken away, without any hurt or hindrance unto that which is pure, and sound. And if they put such confidence in this similitude, as that they will thereby without any testimony of the word of God, stay the further building, or correcting the faults of the house of the Lord (which by his manifest commandment aught to be done with all speed) then besides that they be very uncunning builders, which can not mend the faults without overthrow of all (especially when as the fault, is not in the foundation) they must remember, that as the mean, which is used to gather the children of God, is called a building, so it is called a planting. And therefore as dead twigs, riotous or superfluous branches, or what soever hindereth the growth of the vine tree, may be cut of, without rooting up the vine: so the unprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any overthrow of those things which are well established. And seeing that Christ and belial can not agreed, it is strange, that the pure doctrine of the one, and the corruptions of the other, should cleave so fast together, that pure doctrine can not be with her safety, severed from the corruptions, when as they are rather like unto that part of Daniels image, which was compounded of clay and iron, and therefore could not cleave or stick one with an other. Io. Whitgifte. They did not only propound it out of time, (after the Parliament was ended) but out of order also, that is in the manner of a libel, with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures, opprobrious speeches, and slanders: not to reform, but to deform the Church, and to confounded al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij, the petition of the principle, for you take that as confessed & true, which will not be granted unto you, as shall more at large hereafter appear. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further said, that the setters forward of this cause are contentious, and in moving questions give occasion to the Papists of staundering the religion, and to the weak, of offence. But if it be found to be both true which is propounded, and a thing necessary about which we contend, then hath this accusation no ground to stand en. For peace is commended to us, with these conditions, if it be possible, if it lie in us. Now it is not possible; it lieth not in us to conceal the Rom. 1 ▪ . Cor. 10. truth, we can do nothing against it, but for it. It is a profane saying, of a profane man, that an unjust peace, is better than a just war. It is a divine saying of an heathen man: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: It is good to contend for good things. The Papists have no matter of rejoicing, seeing they have greater & sharper controversies at home, and seeing this tendeth both to the further opening of their shame, and thrusting out of their remnants, which yet remain among us. The weak may not be offended, considering that (even in the Church of God, and among those of the Church) there hath been as great varieties of judgements, as these are. For what weightier controversies can there be, than whether we shall rise again or not, These were offences, but woe to the authors. whether circumcision were necessary to be observed of those which believed? And yet the first was amongst the Church of the Corinth's, the other was first in Jerusalem and Antioch and after in the Churches of Galatia, and yet they the Churches, and that the true religion which was there professed. Io. Whitgifte. It is very true, and sufficiently proved in that Answer to the Admonition, that the authors thereof be contentidus, and give occasion to the Papists of staundering the religion professed, and to the weak of offence. For whosoever troubleth the peace of the Church, or divide themselves from the Church for external things, they be contentious: but these men do so, therefore they be contentious: the mayor proposition is grounded upon the words of Saint Paul. 1. Corinth. 8. 9 and. 10. but especially upon these words of the. 11. Chapter. If any be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God. Whereas he purposely speaketh of such, as be contentious for external matters: whereupon that is grounded that Bullinger says: That those be contentious, which trouble and divide the Bulling. church for external things. And that also, which Zuinglius in his book de baptismo, speaking of contentious Anabaptistes, writeth: They go about innovations of their own private authority in those Churches where the Gospel is truly taught, and that in external Zuinglius de baptis. things. And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authors of contentions, and troublers of the church, which strive about external matters. And surely this is an evident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast. the accusation is true, because they and their companions (for the mosre part) make contention wheresoever they come, and especially in those places where the Gospel hath with most diligence been taught, as experience sufficiently proveth. Furthermore the time and manner of publishing their pamphlets, argueth the same most evidently. The truth and necessity of those things for the which they contend, rest as yet in trial. Surely if they be matters necessary to salvation, then is there some just cause of breaking the peace of the Church for them, but if they be matters of no such weight, then can you not excuse either yourself, or them. In deed the Papists have no just matter of rejoicing, for they disagree both in me, & also in far greater matters than these be, even in the chiefest points of their religion: but this is no sufficient excuse for us, we may not disagree in truth, because they disagree in error. Neither aught the weak to be offended, because such contentions have been usual in the Church, as I have also showed in mine Epistle dedicatory to the Church of England. But yet woe be unto those by whom such offences come. T. C. And it is to be remembered that these controversies, for the most part, are not between many. For sundry of those things which are comprehended in the answer to the Admonition, have (as I am persuaded) few favourers, of those especially, which are of any stayed, or sounder judgement in the scriptures, and have seen, or read of the government, and order of other Churches: so that in deed (the father of that answer excepted) we have this controversy, oftentimes, rather with the Papists, than with those which profess the Gospel, as we do. Io. Whitgifte. Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God, or of mine own private persuasion, but I have either sufficient warrant of the word of God, or some godly learned & zealous author's judgement for the same. If I have done otherwise I trust I shall hear of it in this book; but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound judgement, join with me in these matters, & such especially as have had the best experience of the order and government of other reform Churches: for proof whereof, I refer you to the wisest, godlyest, and best learned among the clergy in this land. T. C. And where as last of all, it is said, that this precedeth of envy, of singularity, and of popularity, although these be no sufficient reasons against the truth of the cause, which is neither envious, singular, nor popular, and although they be such, as might be severally, by great likelyhodes, & probabilities refuted: yet because the knowledge of these things, pertaineth only to God, which is the searcher of the heart & reins, and for avoiding of to much tediousness, we will rest in his judgement, tarry for the day wherein the secrets of hearts shall be made manifest. And yet all men do see, how unjustly we be accused of singularity, * Notable untruths, as will fall out in trial. which propound nothing that the Scriptures, do not teach, the writers both old and new for the most part affirm, the examples of the Primitive Churches, and of those which are at these days confirm. Io. Whitgifte. Whether if proceed of envy or not, let the manner both of their, and your writings declare. Popularity you can not avoid, seeing you seek so great an equality, commit so many things to the voices of the people, and in sundry places so greatly magnify and extol them, than the which three what can be more popular? Singularity, and the properties thereof. It is Singularity to divide yourself from that Church, which both profess the word of God truly, and is not to be touched in any point of doctrine necessary to salvation. It is true that a godly learned writer saith: Charity Musc. in. 〈◊〉 Mat. knits together, and reconcileth: singularity cutteth in pieces, and divideth: it is the beginning and root of all heresy, to hate & contemn the communion of the church. And a little after, There be some contentious people whom no church can please, always having some thing to blame in other, but nothing in themselves, which is a manifest sign of singularity. But because the minds and affections of men, are certainly known only to God, the determinate judgement hereof I also refer unto him. As for this bold assertion, that you propeund nothing that the scriptures do not teach. etc. how true it is, must hereafter by examination appear. The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as well against the cause, as the favourers thereof, albeit they be many and divers: yet are they no other, than which have been long sithence in the Prophets, apostles, & our saviour Christ's, & now of late in our times objected against the truth, & the professors thereof. And therefore as the sun of the truth than appeared, & broke through all those clouds, which rose against it, to stop the light of it: so no doubt this cause being of the same nature, will have the same effect. And as all those slanders could not bring the truth in disgrace, with those that loved it: so the children of the truth through these untrue reports, will neither leave the love of this cause, which they have already conceived, nor yet cease to inquire diligently, & to judge indifferently of those surmises which are put up aagaynst it. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words of course, which men of any sect (though not truly) will apply unto themselves, if they be otherwise dealt with, than they can well bear. The truth certainly can not be kept under by any means, and yet sometime error overshadoweth the truth even as the clouds do the Sun. My hope also is, that men will not be carried away with slanderous reports▪ (for if they should, then musre you needs prevail) but with sound reasons, and the truth of the cause. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreover, seeing that we have once overcomed all these lets, & climbed over them, when they were cast in our way, to hinder us from coming from the gross darkness of Popery, unto the glorious light of the Gospel: there is no cause why now they should stay our course to further perfection, considering that neither the stile is higher now, than it was before (being the very self same objections) & in all this time we aught so to have grown in knowledge of the truth, that in stead of being then able to leap over a hedge, we should now have our feet so prepared by the Gospel, that they should be as the feet of a hind, able to surmount even a brickwall if need were. Io. Whitgifte. There is but one truth, & that is certain: when we have obtained if, we must therein remain constant, without altering: whosoever shall overleap or overrun this brickwall, must of necessity procure unto himself great danger. and therefore according to the old proverb, Look before thou leap. We must grow in faith & knowledge, & always be growing & going forward, but it doth not therefore follow, that we must daily invent new opinions, or broach new dectrines, & altar in judgement: we must grow in strength of faith, we must increase in practice and love of virtue, we must study to increase our knowledge, that we may be the more confirmed in the truth that we have learned out of the word of God. This is an evil collection, we must grow in the knowledge of the truth, therefore we must always be altering and changing our religion. The Epistle of T. C. Sect. ult. The sum of all is, that the cause may be looked upon with a single eye, without all mist of partiality, may be herded with an indifferent ear, without the wax of prejudice: the arguments of both sides may be weighed, not with the changeable weights of custom, of time, of men, which notwithstanding (Popish excepted) shall be showed to be more for the cause than against it: but with the just balances of the incorruptible & unchangeable word of God. And I humbly beseech the Lord, to increase in us the spirit of knowledge, & judgement, that we may discern things which differ one from an other, and that we may be lyncere, and without offence, until the day of Christ. Io. Whitgifte. This do I in like manner desire with all my heart, and to the latter end of it, I say Amen. The midst if you prove not, then shall you be blamed, for making such a brag. T. C. The Author to the Reader. I Am humbly to crave at thy hand (gentle reader) that thou wouldst vouchsafe diligently and carefully to compare Master Doctors answer, and my reply, both that thou mayst the better understand the truth of the cause, & that the untempered speeches of him (especially that whippeth 〈◊〉 desireth hat hich▪ as much as lieth in him) he hath sought to inder. other so sharply for them) which I have in a manner altogether passed by, and his lose conclusions, which I have (to avoid tediousness) not so fully pursued, may the better appear: which thing as I crave to be done through the whole book, so chief I desire it may be done in the beginning, where the reader shall not be able so well to understand what is said of me, unless he have M. D. book before him. * Vain and un s fficient ex u se why he ha' h not et down the answer to the Ad onition. The cause of which diversity rose of that, that I first purposed to set down his answer before my reply, as he did the Admonition, before his answer. But afterward considering that (his book being already in the hands of men) it would be double charges to buy it again: And especially weighing with myself that through the slowness of the print, for want of help, the repli by that means should come forth later, than was convement (for although he might commodiously bring in the Admonition, being short, yet the same could not be done in his book, swelling in that sort which it doth) I say, these things considered, I changed my mind, and have therefore set down the causes, which moved me so to do, because I know, that those , if any be, which have determined to continued their foreiudged opinions against the cause, whatsoever be alleged, will hereupon take occasion to surmise, that I have left out his answer, to the end that it might the less appear, wherein I have passed over any weight of his reasons: whereas, had it not been for these causes, which I have before alleged, my earnest desire was, to have set his answer before my reply: whereof I call the Lord to witness, whom I know to be a sharp judge, against those which shall abuse his holy name to any untruth. Io. Whitgifte. You have well provided for the comparing of Master Doctors answer with your reply: & howsoever you protest, the your earnest desire was to set it down before your The true ca says why T. C. set not down the answer. Reply, yet the sequel will declare the contrary: for it shall evidently appear that therefore you have omitted it, because you are loath they should be compared together, lest your frivolous Replies, your childish collections, your wilful depraving, your fraudulent dismembering of my book, should manifestly appear. Full well known you, that your fautors (in whose hands especially your books are kept) would not take pains to compare them both together, except they had been joined together, that they might have done it with one labour. And surely herein you have dealt very unhonestly with me, done me great injury, and not performed that towards me, that you before required of me in one of your pamphlets, and do now again require of me in the end of this book. But wise and indifferent men will soon espy the causes, if it will please them to peruse this book with some diligence. My untempered speeches if they be compared with your flouts & disdainful phrases, or with either of the Admonitions, will seem I am sure very modest. And no doubt you would have set down some examples of some of them, if they had been such as you would make the reader believe. But in your book he may see the humbleness of your spirit, and judge whether that one quality be found in you or not, which Zuinglius in Zuinglius. his book called Elenchus contra Anabap. and in his books de baptismo, & Ecclesiast. and Bullinger in his book Aduersus Anabap. do say, is common to the Anabaptists, that is, to revile Bullinger. the ministers of the word, and much more bitterly to inveigh against them (if they withstand their errors) than against the Papists. Truly if you should have written against the doggeddest Papist, or the pestilentest heretic that ever was, you could not have invented, how in more spiteful manner to deface him: but how truly, it rests in the trial. Touching lose conclusions, it is unlike that you have omitted any, seeing that you have famed those to be which are not. Wherein your false dealing plainly appeareth, & shall b made manifest. Your excuses for omitting my book in your reply be mere excuses: for why should you run in suspicion of corrupt dealing for saving. x . d. in an other man's purse? as for the volume of your book it would not have been much bigger, if you had spared your superfluous digressions, cut off your vain words, & kept in your scornful and opprobrious speeches. What I think of your protestation, I have told you before. To his loving Nurse, the Christian Church of England, Io. Whitgifte a member and minister of the same, wisheth peace in Christ, and continuance of his glorious Gospel, even to the worlds end. THere be divers things, and especially five, that when I first took this labour in hand, had almost utterly dissuaded me from the same. first because I do with all my heart hate contention and strife, and especially in matters of Religion, among such as profess the self same Gospel. Secondly, for that I feared greatly lest some slander might tedounde to the Gospel by this open contention, seeing that God is not the author of contention or confusion, but of peace. 1. Cor. 14. Thirdly, I doubted whether this kind of dealing by writing might minister matter to the common adversaries of the Gospel, to rejoice and glory, and to flatter themselves the more in their damnable errors. Fourthly, I greatly suspected the slanderous reports of the backbiter, and of the unlearned tongue: the one, because he loveth to speak evil, and hear evil of all those that be not in all points inclinable to his fancy, whereof I have great experience, being myself most unjustly slandered by that viperous kind of men: the other, because they be not able to judge of controversies according to learning and knowledge, and therefore are ruled by affection, and carried headlong with blind zeal, into divers sinister judgements, and erroneous opinions. Lastly, because I know sundry (in all respects) worthy men, much more able to deal in such matters than I am. But when I considered my duty towards God, to his Church, and to our most gracious Lady and sovereign Elizabeth her Majesty (by whose ministery God hath given his Gospel free passage unto us) the first stop and hindrance was answered. For I thought that, that duty aught not to be omitted for any such cause, seeing God and not man, shall be my judge: and also that not he which defendeth the truth, and confu eth errors, but he that impugneth the truth, and spreadeth sects, is the author of contention. Likewise when I remembered that it was no new thing to have contentions, sects, and schisms in the Church of Christ, (especially when it enjoyeth external peace) and that we had manifest examples there of from time to time, (first in Peter, and Paul ad Gal. 2. Paul and Barnabas, Acto. 15. then in the Church of the Corinthians. 1. Cor. 1. &. 3. Afterwards betwixt the oriental Church and occidental Church, touching Easter and such like matters: Betwixt the Bishops of Aphrica and the bishops of Italy for rebaptising of Heretics: and sundry times, yea usually in the external peace of the Church, as may be more at large seen in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl. histo. cap. 6. & libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. & li. 8. etc. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca 1. In Zozom. lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep. 61. ad fratres & episcopos in occidente, & ep. 69. & in sundry other ancient and learned histories and writers. For the second point I was satisfied: For I thought, that, that could be no slander to this Church, which by the malice of Satan hath been practised in all Churches even since the ascension of Christ. Thirdly, when I perceived that these men against whom I now writ, did agreed with the adversaries in defacing the state of Religion, the order of Common prayers, the ministery, the Sacraments, the kind of Government, etc. used and allowed in this Realm of England, and that in as opprobrious and spiteful manner as the adversaries do: likewise that they seek to overthrow the self same pillars of this Church with the adversaries (although not by the self same means) I thought that the confutation and overthrow of the one, should be the confutation and overthrow of the other, and therefore the adversaries to have small cause in deed of rejoicing. Against backbyters, slanderers, and unlearned tongues, I shall by God's grace, arm myself with patience, for their talk is no sufficient cause for a man to abstain from doing his duty. To conclude, I (although the unworthiest and unmeetest of a great number) was bold to take upon me this enterprise, partly to show that the book called the Admonition, is not such, but that it may easily be answered, and especially to satisfy mine own conscience: for I considered that if no man had taken upon him the envy of the common sort, in with standing the enterprises and proceed of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germany, Anabaptisme had overrun those Churches, and utterly destroyed them. These were the reasons that satisfied the former objections, and especially moved me to take upon me this labour, wherewith if I can also satisfy others, I have my desire: if not, yet have I done my duty, and satisfied mine own conscience. And forasmuch as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Church of England, I thought it most meet to dedicated this my book, rather unto the same generally, than to any one particular member thereof: protesting that if I have affirmed any thing therein, that by learning & good reasons may be proved erroneous, I will reform the same, for I wholly submit it to the rule of God's word, and the judgement of those that be learned, discrete and wise. The Lord bless thee (O dear spouse of Christ) with the continuance of his Gospel, of the Queen's Majesty, and of godly peace and quietness. Amen. An answer to the whole Epistle to the Church. T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forward, or thrust you backward, to writ, or not to writ, and how in this dispute with yourself, in the end you were resolved to writ in this sort, I leave it unto the judgement of the Lord, who only knoweth the secrets of the heart, and will in his good time unseal them. But if there be any place of conjecture, the hatred of contention, which you set down, as the first and principal cause, that beat you back from writing, might well have been put, as the last and lest, or rather none at all. For if peace had been so precious unto you (as you pretend) you would not have brought so many hard words, bitter reproaches, e mylike speeches (as it were sticks and coals) to double and triple the heat of contention: If the sharpness of the Admonition misliked you, and you think that they outreached in some vehemency of words, how could you more effectually have confuted that, than to have in a quiet and I'd spirit set them in the way, which (in your opinion) had left it? Now in words condemning it, and approving it in your deeds, I will not say that you do not so much mislike this sharpness, as you are A charitable figure. sorry, that you are prevented, and are not the first in it. But this I may well say unto you, which he said: Quid verba audiam, cum facta videam? what should I hear words, when I see the deeds? In the fourth reason whereby you were discouraged to writ, if by backbiters, and unlearned tongues, viperous kind of men, not able to judge of controversies, carried away with affections and blind zeal, into divers sinister judgements, and erroneous▪ opinions, you mean all those that think not as you do in these matters, I answer for myself, and for as many as I know of them, that they are they, which first desire (so it be truly) to hear and speak all good of you. But if that be not, through your perseverance, in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church (which you should help to purge) than the same are they, that desire, that both the evil which you have done, and that which you have yet in your heart to do, may be known, to the less discredit of the truth and sincerity, which you, with such might and main, do strive against. Touching our (a) A manifest perverting of the words and meaning of the Epistle. unlearned tongues we had rather a great deal, they were unlearned, than they should be as there's, * which have taught their tongues to speak falsely. And how unlearned soever jerem. 9 5 you would make the world believe that we, and our tongues be, I hope (through the goodness of God) they shall be learned enough, to defend the truth, against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with. If those be (b) Slanderous and cursed speakers, be not the generation of Christ. the generation of Christ, which you call viperous kind of men, Esay. 53. 8. know you that you have not opened your mouth against earth, but you have set it against heaven, and for all indifferent judgement, it will easily perceive, that you are as far from the spirit of * John Baptist, as you are near to his manner of speech, which you use. whither it be affection, Math. 3. 7 or blind zeal, that we follow, and are driven by, it will then appear, when the reasons of both sides, being laid out, shall be weighed indifferently. Whereas you say, that your duty towards God, & the Queen her Majesty, moved you to take this labour in hand, it will fall out, upon the discourse, that as you have not served the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours, so have you done nothing less than any godly duty which you own unto her Majesty, so that the best that can be thought of you herein, is, that where in an evil matter, you could yield no duty, yet now you have done that, which you thought a duty, which judgement, we will so long keep of you, until you shall by oppugmng of a known truth, declare the contrary, which we hope will not be. What truth it is, that we impugn, and you defend, let it in the name of God appear, by our several proofs and answers of both sides. And as for the slanderous surmises, whereby in your third and last consideration, you set the Papists of the one side of us, and the Anabaptists of the other, and us in the midst, reaching out our hands (as it were) to them both: first, it aught not to be strange unto us, miserable sinners, seeing that the Lord hunselfe, without all sin, was placed in the midst of two grievous malefactors, as though he had been worse than they both. Then for answer of these slanderous speeches, I will refer the Reader to those places, where these general charges are given out in more particular manner. Io. Whitgifte. It is well that you are content to rest in his judgement, until the time come: for so indeed aught we to do: as the Apostle admonisheth. 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4. judicare: judge not before the time, until the Lord come. etc. Your conjecture is a mere conjecture in deed, for undoubtedly these so many hard words of mine, bitter reproaches. etc. would not have been kept so secret of you, if you could have had them foorthcomming. But be it so, as you will needs have it, yet have I not in like bitterness of speech spoken against them, as Zuinglius, Bucer, Caluine, Bullinger, Gualther. etc. have done against the like troublers of the Church: who had notwithstanding all these pretences and cloaks, to shadow their contentions with, which either you, or the Authors of the Admonition do allege: for they pretend the Glory of God, the Purity of Religion, the safety of the Church, as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Comment▪ upon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his book adversus Anabap. Gastius in his book de exordio & erroribus catabaptist. Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesi. And Bullinger in his book adversus Anabaptist: as I have by setting down their very words more at large declared in the second edition of my answer to the Admonition. But grant, that for the love of peace, and hatred of contention, and earnest zeal that I bear to this Church of Christ in England, and dutiful affection to my sovereign, I have sometimes passed the bounds of modesty (wherein I will neither accuse, nor excuse myself) yet are my speeches in bitterness far inferior to those opprobries, slanders, and disdainful words uttered either in the first or second Admonition, or in your Reply. And where have you learned to espy a mote in another man's eye, and not to see the beam that is in your own? or what point of Rhetoric do you call it, to charge me in the beginning of your book with that, that you yourself most outrageously fall into sundry times, almost in every leaf? or how unwise are you to give unto me that council, which you yourself in no respect observe? But of both our modesties, and manners of writing, we must be content that other men judge which shall read our books: and therefore it is but in vain either for you to accuse, or me to excuse. God grant us both the spirit of modesty and humility. In my fourth reason, by backbiters, I mean all such as are ready to hear evil, and speak evil of all men that be not of their judgement, and such as cease not continually to deprave those especially that be of any countenance and calling, the which vice doth abundantly reign (I will not say in all) but in a great sort of your sect, and those learned also. I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially, although under other pretences: and in this quality they agree with the Anabaptists: as may appear more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities, contained in the second edition of my answer to the Admonition, to the which for brevities sake I refer you. By unlearned tongues, I mean such of the common people as you have deluded, who in deed are carried away by a blind and preposterous zeal, and therefore the rather to be excused. I know there be some (both of the learned & unlearned sort) among you, that have milder spirits than the rest, such I do not blante in this point, I would other would follow their modesty. As for the good that you and other would so gladly speak of me, it evil appeareth in this book, where you do but devise how possibly you may deface me: in deed both you, and some others (if you considered your duties towards me, and my dealings towards you, whilst you kept yourselves within your bonds) have small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do, or otherwise to deal so unchristianly with me. The evil that you know by me, utter it and spare not, I desire no silence, so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it. And surely he that shall read this your book, cannot but conceive, that if you known any evil thing by me, it would not be concealed. But to all reproaches I will answer, as they come in order, and proclaim defiance against you, for any thing that you can justly charge me with. I intent not to maintain any corruptions of this Church, I will seek for the redress thereof as earnestly as you shall, and more orderly, and therefore I trust more effectually. But I neither can, nor may suffer that which is lawfully, and by due order established, unlawfully and out of order by you to be defaced. This your pretence of cleansing the Church from corruptions, is but the accustomed excuse of the novatians, Donatists', and Anabaptistes, as you know well-enough: and therefore before you condemn me to be a defender of the corruptions of this Church, you must first prove them to be corruptions: and when you have so done, you must also declare them to be such corruptions, as deserve this stir and hurly burly for them: for there were great corruptions in the Church of the Corinth's, and yet the Apostle greatly misliked such as stirred up contentions for the same: so hath there been always imperfections in the Church, especially in external things: and yet such as therefore did break the peace of it, were always counted as contentious, and condeinned as schismatics: look the writers before of me mentioned in their books against the Anabaptists. As I said before, so I say again, let the evil which I have done, and that which you say I have yet in my heart to do (wherein you take upon you the office of God) be proclaimed at the standard in Cheap, or elsewhere (so it be done publicly that I may answer it, and not in corners as it hath been) and if I fail in my purgation, let me sustain the pain due for the same. I ask no favour, I fear no accuser, I refuse no indifferent judge. And if you have any thing to say against me, do it orderly, do it lawfully, not in corners, not in libels. This I speak not to justify myself before God (for in that respect I know more imperfections in myself than I do in any other, because I know myself better than I know any man else) but before man, in doing my duty, in observing laws, in walking in my vocation. etc. I do not accuse you all, for lack of learning, neither can you, or any man else gather any such thing of my words: God grant you may use your learning to better purpose, than to the disturbing of the Church, and stirring up of contentions, where the Gospel is truly preached. This is but a slender collection to say that therefore I accuse you all of unlearnedness, because I say that I greatly suspected the slanderous reports of backbiters, and of the unlearned tongue. Surely there be both learned and unlearned tongues among you too much given to backbiting, and slandering, as it is well known: and yet I accuse not all. Let them which find this imperfection in themselves, in the name of God amend it, for it is a foul fault. In that they like vipers with slanderous reports, sting men privately, they be not the generation of Christ, but of Christ's adversary, howsoever otherwise they seem to be godly and zealous: For Christ doth will them to love their enemies, to pray Math. 5. for them that curse them. etc. so far would he have them from backbiting and slandering of their brethren, and of such as profess the name of Christ with them. He that speaketh against slanderous tongues, doth not open his mouth against Heaven, but against that vice which is earthly, yea hellish: neither must you think that your Church is so pure, but that it hath in it a number such as well deserve this reprehension. And therefore these great speeches of yours might well have been forborn, your learning and reasons which you so often boast of, must be left to the judgement of others. What duty I have performed towards God and her Majesty, lieth not in your power to judge: I am fully persuaded, that I have done that which my duty towards them both requireth of me, and urgeth me unto in this behalf: and I doubt not, but that therein I have done good service to them both. Your judgement of me I do not greatly regard, so long as you are affected as you are. I will die rather than impugn a known truth, neither will I cease from defending of that which I am fully persuaded to be a truth. In my third and last consideration, all is true that I said, neither can you deny it. Most true it is that in defacing this present state of Religion, that is, the order of common prayers, the ministery, the Sacraments, the kind of government, you join with the Papists, although you use in some points contrary reasons: and in disquieting the Church for external things, you join with the Anabaptistes. And in opprobrious speeches and taunts you are inferior to neither of them both. And yet I do not say that you be either Papists or Anabaptistes. Prove that I herein speak untruly of you, and I will willingly make you amendss. A brief Examination of the reasons used in the Book, called an Admonition to the Parliament. Io. Whitgifte. FIrst, in that book the scripture is most untolerably abused, and unlearnedly applied, quoted only in their margin to delude both such, as for lack of learning cannot, and such as either for slothfulness or some prejudicate opinion, will not examine the same: as I have particularly declared in my answer following. T. C. An answer to that which is called a brief examination of the reasons used in the Admonition to the Parliament. IF the scriptures had been applied to the maintenance of the abomination of the Mass, and some Vain shifts to colour the un apt allegati s of scriptu es by the 〈◊〉. Charity do he not cover open and notorious faults. other of the grossest of antichristianity, you could have said no more, nor used vehementer speech than this, that they are most untolerably abused, and unlearnedly applied. And then where is charity, which covereth the multitude of faults, especially in brethren, when you do not only not Pro. 10. cover them, but also take away their garments whereby they are covered. I will not deny, but that there be some few places quoted, which might have been spared, but there are a great number, which (M. Doctor) tosseth and throweth away so lightly, which he shall perceive to sit nearer him than he is, or at the lest seemeth to be ware of. And to bring to pass that the quotations in the margin might appear to the reader more absurd, M Doctor hath besides the * There is no so e advantage taken. advantage which he taketh of the faults of the Printer, used two unlawful practices especially. Whereof the one is, that whereas the Admonition doth quote the scripture, not only to prove the matters which it handleth▪ but sometimes also to note the place from whence the phrase of speech is taken, M. Doctor doth go about to make his reader believe, that those places which be alleged for proof of the * Scriptures alleged for proof of the phrase. phrase, are quoted for proof of the matter. The other practice is, that where the Admonition for the shortness which it promises, and was necessary in that case, could not apply the places, M. Doctor presuming too much of the ignorance of his reader, thought he might make him believe, that any thing else was meant by those places, than that which they meant in deed, and for which they were alleged. And where you say the quotations are only to delude such. etc. I see you hold it no fault in yourself, which you condemn so precisely in others, that is, to judge before the time, to sit in the conscience, to affirm definitely of their thoughts, contrary to their own protestation. But seeing you lift up our imperfections so high▪ and set them as it were upon a stage for all men to be looked of, to the discredit of the truth which we do maintain, you shall not think much if your poverty be pointed unto, in those things wherein you would carry so great countenance of store. Io. Whitgifte. The abusing of the scriptures, and the unjust applying of them, is to be maintained The abusing of scripture is to be maintained in none. neither in Papist, nor other: and lest of all in such as seeming to give most authority unto them, do by that means give occasion to the adversary to contemn them. What just occasion might the Papists have of triumphing, if they should understand that we as licentiously wring and wrist the scriptures to serve our turn, as they do to serve there's? And truly as well may they apply the scriptures that they use in the defence of their Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Merits, Images. etc. as the authors of the Admonition can do to prove those things, for the which they do oftentimes allege them. And therefore I think that my speech in that point against them cannot be too sharp. Charity doth not so cover open and manifest sins, that it suffereth them to be unreprehended, but it remitteth private offences, it doth not publish secret sins at the first: neither doth it disclose all things that it knoweth to the defamation of a brother, when he may be otherwise reform. But this fault of there's in abusing the scriptu ss is public, printed in books, in every man's hand: used to discredit and deface this Church of England: which no true member of the same aught to suffer. Wherefore in detecting this untrue dealing, I have not broken any rule of Charity, but done my bound duty. If there be so many of their quotations tossed and thrown away by me. etc. I trust you will let me understand of them as occasion is offered: which surely you have done in very few places, and in those wherein you have done it, you have done it very slenderly & loosely, as will appear. I take very little or no advantage at all of the Printer, but salve that as much as I can: and where as you say that where the Admonition quoteth the scripture, not only to prove the matter, but to note the place from whence the phrase of speech is taken. etc. that is a very feeble excuse, and far fetched: for to what purpose should they so do? or why do you not by some examples declare unto us, that they have so done? this is but a shift, and argueth that you are not purposed to acknowledge any fault, be it never so manifest. And therefore little hope there is of any amendment. And whereas you also say that the Admonition for the shortness which it promises. etc. to that I answer as before, and I add that it was very uncircumspectly done of them, to quote places which could not be applied to that purpose for the which they were quoted. In such matters men aught to have such regard unto the time, that they abuse not the word of God. But I have (as you say) otherwise applied their quotations, than they meant indeed. I think you will let me hear of it, when you come to those places, and then shall I shape you an answer. To what purpose should the margin of their book be pestered with such unapt quotations, but only to delude the reader, and to make him believe that all things there contained be grounded of the express word of God? where things be open and manifest, there a man may judge, though he sit not in the conscience of him of whom he judgeth. As for Protestations they be now so usual and common in every matter, and the sequel so many times contrary to the same, that it is hard for a man to give credit at all times to all people protesting: there is experience of it, & I could allege examples, if I were disposed. Set out my poverty as much as you can, and spare it not: but take heed lest in so doing you show yourself poor indeed, and that in those things especially wherein you seem most to complain of my poverty. A brief examination. etc. Secondly their proofs consist especially of these arguments. The Argu. a sec dum quid ad simpliciter. first is ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod simpliciter est, as such and such things were not in the Apostles time, Ergo, they aught not to be now. Which kind of argument is very deceitful, and the mother and wellspring of many both old and new schisms: of old, as of them that called themselves Apostolicos, and of the Aërians: of new, as of the Anabaptists, who considering neither the diversity of times concerning the external ecclesiastical policy, nor the true liberty of the Christian religion in extern rites and ceremonies, in matters neither commanded, nor forbidden in God's Law, nor the authority of Christian magistrates in the Christian congregation, concerning the same, have boldly enterprised to stir up many and heinous errors: For if these reasons should take place: the Apostles used it not, Ergo it is not lawful for us to use it: or this either: they did it, Ergo we must needs do it: then no Christians may have any place to abide in, they may have no Christian Princes: no ministration of sacraments in Churches and such like: for the Apostles had no place to abide in, they had no Christian Princes to govern them, no Churches to minister sacraments in. etc. Likewise we must have all things Acts. 2. &. 4. common: we must departed with all our possessions when we be converted Math. 19 to the Gospel: baptize abroad in the fields: minister the communion Acts. 8. in private houses only: be always under the cross and under Act. 2. &. 20. Tyrants, and such like: For the Apostles had all things common, departed from their possessions, baptized abroad in fields, ministered the communion in private houses, were always under persecutors and Tyrants. etc. Io. Whitgifte. To this kind of argument and that which is here spoken. T. C. maketh no answer at all in this place, what he doth hereafter we shall understand when we come to it. Abriefe examination. etc. Another kind of argument is much like unto this, and is taken Ab authoritate negatiuè. ab authoritate negatiuè, which in matters of salvation and damnation holdeth when we reason ab authoritate scripturae, from the authority of the scripture, but not else: For this argument (it is not commanded in the scripture to be done, nor there expressed Ergo it aught not to be done) is so far out of the way and so erroneous, that it is not tolerable: for it taketh away the most part of all due circumstances, without the which either after one manner or other, the very institutions of Christ cannot be observed: For how is it possible to receive the holy communion, but either sitting, standing, kneeling, walking or lying: either at one time or other: in the morning or at night: before meat or after meat: clothed or naked: in this place or in that place. etc. and yet none of these circumstances are in Scripture commanded, or by necessary collection may thereof be gathered: the same is to be said of the observation of times, of common prayers, and other convenient and necessary orders in the Church. If this argument were good, than all good laws and ordinances made for the advancing of true religion, and establishing of good orders, were to be abolished, which were the very root, and wellspring of stubborness, obstinacy, sedition, disobedience, and confusion. T. C. FOr the arguments themselves, they shall be seen what they be in their places, so shall also that be answered, which M. Doctor bringeth here, for the confutation, being straight way after, and in sundry other places repeated in this book, I will touch that which is not repeated, and that is, that M. Doctor maketh it a (a) A wrangling cavil. indifferent thing for men and women to receive the supper of the Lord, clothed or naked. This savoureth strongly of the sect of the Adamites. (b) Superfluous proofs. S. Paul which commends the preservation of godliness & peace, unto the civil magistrate, doth also commend unto him the providing, that honesty be kept, and M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing, (c) Where found you these words? to come either naked or clothed unto the Lord's table: verily there is (d) It is less honesty, in charging M. Doctor falsely. small honesty in this. And if the heathen which known not God, did accounted it a filthy thing for a stage player, to come upon the stage without a slop, how much more filthy is it for a Christian to come naked unto the Lord's table? and the contrary thereof, is necessarily collected of the scripture, notwithstanding that M. Doctor saith otherwise. (e) A digression from the matter to the person. They which have heard M. Doctor read in the schools can tell, that he being there amongst learned men, never used to reduce the contrary arguments of the adversaries, to the places of the fallations, and yet that was the fittest place for him t have showed his knowledge in, because there they should have been best understood: now that he professeth himself to be a Doctor of the people, which because they have not learned these things, cannot understand them, he dasheth out his Logic: what may be probably gathered hereof, I leave to every man's consideration: this is certain, that circumstances of place and people, which he so often urgeth, are not well observed of him, when Logic speaketh in the Church, and is mute in the schools: when things are handled more learnedly amongst thepeople, and more popularly amongst the learned. It is truly said, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. A good thing is evil, when it cometh out of season. But to observe what Art here is showed, I would gladly know what place of the (f) Where be they called falla cions▪ you can not deny them to be false arguments. fallations, either an argument Ab authoritate negative is, or of negatives by comparison. Aristotle setting forth places, whereunto all fallations may be called, maketh no mention of these, and if these were fallations, & were such as he imagineth them, they should be referred unto the former place, Ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter, for these reasons, the Scripture hath it not, therefore it aught not to be, or the minister was known by doctrine, therefore by doctrine only, and not by apparel: If I say they be fallations, they be referred unto that place, and whether they be, or not, and also how corruptly, and otherwise than is meant they be gathered, it shall afterward appear. In the mean season in a small matter here is a great fault, not only to muent new places, but of one place to make three, and may aswell make a thousand. Io. Whitgifte. The arguments are left unanswered, because in deed they can not be answered. Wherefore T. C. picketh other quarrels, and here beginneth his vain of gibing and jesting. Who would have made this ado about clothed or naked, but such a one as is delighted in quarreling? or who can gather, that by using this example, I would have men to receive the Communion naked, or once surmise that I think it lawful for them so to do, and therefore to savour strongly of the sect of the Adamites, but he that is disposed to piece out his reply with such imagined toys. I pray you where do I make it an indifferent thing, to come either clothed or naked unto the lords table? Set down my words: but if I say no such thing, if I have not so much as once named this word indifferent in that place: then surely have you dealt with me, not only not indifferently, but very dishonestly, in laying this thing to my charge. The example is apt, and proveth that thing manifestly that I allege it for: that is, that the most part of the due circumstances (without the which the very institutions of Christ in his Sacraments can not be observed, be not commanded particularly, nor expressed in the Scriptures, but left to the Church to determine. I do not say, that it is an indifferent thing, I know it doth necessarily appertain to comeliness: but I deny it to be particularly expressed in the Scriptures: and therefore I say, that although all things necessary to salvation be in the Scriptures manifestly contained, yet all things necessary to order and comeliness are not there expressed, much less such things as according to time, place, and people may be altered. If this doctrine be not true, why do you not overthrow the other examples also? why can you find no other faults in this argument? If this example so trouble you, I will tell you plainly from whom I had it, even from that famous Martyr, and notable learned man, D. Ridley, sometime Bishop of London, who used the same example to the same purpose, in his conference by writing with M. Hoper, exhibited up to the Council in the time of king Edward the sixte, the true Copy whereof I have. Surely he was no Adamite, but a man of singular judgement and learning. Touching my reading in the Schools (which you here opprobriously object unto me) though I know that the University had a far better opinion of me, than I deserved, and that there were a great many which were in all respects better able to do that office, than myself, yet I trust I did my duty, and satisfied them. What logic I uttered in my Lectures, and how I read, I refer to their judgements: who surely if they suffered me so long to continued in that place, augmented the stipend for my sake, and were so desirous to have me still to remain in that function (reading so unlearnedly, as you would make the world believe I did) may be thought either to be without judgement themselves, or else to have been very careless for that exercise. Well, I will not speak that which I might justly speak by this provocation of yours: For I count this either an heathenish, or a childish kind of confuting, to fall from the matter, to the depraving of the person. God grant that we both may so know our gifts, and ourselves, that we may acknowledge them to be his, and employ them to the edifying of the Church, not to the disgracing one of another. Scientia inflat. etc. I did know that this my book should come into the hands both of the learned and unlearned: and therefore (as near as I could) I did frame myself to serve them both. And because all, or the most part of your proofs, consist of these or the like kind of arguments, I thought it convenient, to set down a note of them before my book, and that for the learned sake, whereof I do not repent me, neither do I think that it cometh out of place. But to observe what art here is showed, you would gladly know (you say) what place of the fallations either an argument ab authoritate negative is, or of negatives by comparison. etc. I marvel that you will so openly dally: I entitle this treatise, A brief examination of the reasons used in the book. etc. And afterwards I call them arguments, I do not call them fallations, (which notwithstanding I might have done in some respect) but seeing you cavil about words, tell me where I call either an argument ab authoritate negatiuè, or of negatives by comparison, fallations? Do you not blush to trifle on this sort, and to seek occasion of cavilling in so small matters? I am sure that you are not so ignorant in Logic, but that you know there be many false arguments, which be not amongst the fallations. What say you to an argument à specie negatiuè, and such like? What say you to an argument ex solis negativis, or ex solis particularibus? or to that that otherwise doth offend in any mood or figure? or to be short, to such as be in any place of Logic negative or affirmative, when the nature of the place will not bear it? For you know that in some places only negative reasons hold, in some other places only affirmative. Concerning an argument ab authoritate negatiuè, that it is no good argument Arg. ab autho ritate negatiuè. all Logicians confess, neither is he to be thought to have any skill in Logic at all, that will deny it. Only the authority of the Scripture is to be excepted in matters pertaining to salvation, or damnation, because therein it is perfect and absolute: as I have declared in my answer to the Admonition. Touching the argument of négatives by comparison, which you think to Arg. of negatives by comparison. be so strange, it is most usual in the Scriptures, and most consonant to reason. when God said unto Samuel. 1. Reg. 8. They have not refused thee, but me: He meant not absolutely, that they had not rejected Samuel, but by that one negative by comparison, he understandeth two affirmatives: that is, that they had rejected Samuel, and not him alone, but chief they had rejected God. But of this kind of argument, look the. 2. book, and 12. chapter of worthy Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury, which he writeth of the Sacrament: where he answering the objections of the Papists out of Chrysostom, touching transubstantiation, handleth this argument at large, and setteth it out by many examples, to the which place I refer the Reader, and you too, that you may see your lack of discretion, in finding fault where none is. Those be but slender answers to these arguments, except you quit yourself better in the rest of your Reply, it had been mnche safer for your cause to have still kept silence. Io. Whitgifte. A brief examination etc. The third kind of argument is called petitio principij. which is Arg. à petitione principij. when a man frameth unto himself principles of his own devise, grounded neither upon authority, neither yet upon substantial reason, and then upon the same will conclude his purpose: which is vitiosissimum genus argumentandi, a very erroneous kind of reasoning, as these men do in using these two false principles: the one, when they say that to be invented by an Antichristian Pope, which was not so invented: the other, when they say that nothing may be used in the Church of Christ, which was invented by the Pope, or used in the Pope's Church: which can not be true, as in sundry places of the book I have declared. The self same reasons moved the Aërians to forsake the order of the Church, and to command their disciples to do the contrary of that that the Church did. We borrow good laws of the Gentiles: and we use the Churches, Bells, Pulpits, and many other things used of Papists. etc. The fourth kind of reason is, of negatives by comparison: as this, Arg. à negativis per come parationem. Priests and Ministers are to be known by their doctrine, not by their apparel: Ergo, they aught not to have distinct apparel from other men. This argument followeth not, for negatives by comparison are not simply to be understanded, but by the way of comparison: And therefore of the former sentence thus we may conclude, that the apparel is not to be esteemed as a note of difference in comparison to learning and doctrine, and yet a note. As when Paul saith, that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, 1. Cor. 1. And God by his Prophet, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice. Ose. 6. and Mat. 9 The fift is ab eo quod est non causam, ut causam ponere, when that is taken for Arg. à non causa pre causa. the cause of any thing, which is not the cause: As when they condemn the book of Common prayer, & a prescript form of service, because (as they say) it maynteineth an unlearned (or as they term it) a reading ministery, when as the book is not the cause of it, neither yet a prescript form of prayer, but either the parties themselves that be unlearned, or they that do admit them, or else both. This kind of argument is usual in the Admonition. There be other unlearned and unskilful reasons used in this book, which may easily be discerned, even of children. And therefore I here omit them. Thus much I thought good generally to writ, which being duly considered, the book itself needeth no other kind of confutation. Io. Whitgifte. To all this T. C. answereth nothing: but only to that of negatives by comparison, whereof I have spoken before. T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 1 And to the end the pith and weight of M. Doctor's arguments may be the better scene, I will likewise give the reader a say of them, noting the places of the fallations, whereunto they be referred. Which I do against my will, and compelled, for that M. Doctor to discredit the truth would make his reader believe, that those which think not as he doth in these matters, are not only unlearned, but contemners of good learning. In deed there is no great learning in these small things, and they are of that sort, which although it be a great shame not to know, yet it is no great commendation to have knowledge of them. Io. Whitgifte. It had been plain dealing to have set down M. Doctor's arguments in the same form that he hath written them: then might the reader better have judged of your collections: but you were to wise for that, for than should either your forgery have been manifest, or else your book should have been less by all this portion. I seek to discredit errors, and contentious doctrine, and not the truth. Such learning there is, even in those small things, that who so is ignorant of them, may easily be deceived, both in speaking, writing, and reasoning. T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 2. In the. 40. page he reasoneth thus. * An untrue collection. The ministers must learn, therefore they must learn Cathechismes: which is a fallation of the consequent. For although he that must learn a catechism, must learn: yet it followeth not that whosoever must learn, must by-and-by learn a catechism. Io. Whitgifte. My words in that place be these: If they that find some want of learning in themselves, or that be crept into the ministery unlearned, ither of their own accord, or by commandment of their ordinary read and learn godly and learned Cathechismes, they are to be commended, and so is he that provoketh them thereunto. That catechism which you in derision quote in the margin, is a book fit for you to learn also: and I know no man so well learned, but it may become him to read and learn that necessary book. But some arrogant spirits there be, that think themselves of all men b best learned, and disdain to learn of any. That place of the fourth Chapter of the first to Timothy doth not forbidden a man to learn. He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdain as well to be taught, as to teach. Now how any man can gather of these words any such argument as T. C. frameth unto himself, let the Reader judge. He might well have thus concluded: Ministers that find some want of learning in themselves. etc. aught to read & learn such books, as may better instruct them, Ergo, they may read and learn godly and learned Cathechismes. And again, M. Nowell his catechism, is godly and learned: Ergo, godly and learned men may read and learn it. Last of all, a godly and modest Preacher will not disdain aswell to be taught, as to teach: Ergo, he will be aswell content to read other men's books, although they be Cathechismes, as he will be to have other men to read his. Now I pray you judge of the sequel of these reasons: and compare them with T. C. his wayward collection, and tell me truly whether he dealeth simply, or no. It is true, that although a man must learn, it followeth not that he must of necessity learn a catechism, because there be other books, besides Cathechismes to be learned, whereby a man may be instructed: but this is also true, that if a man must learn, he may learn Cathechismes. Surely T. C. is driven to a hard shift, when he is thus constrained to feign fallations where none are. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 3 In the. 55. page he reasoneth, that for so much as the civil Magistrate may appoint some Another forged argument of T. C. his own framing. kind of apparel, therefore he may appoint any, and so the Popish apparel: which is ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter, of which sort he hath divers others. As women may baptise, and preach, because such a one, and such a one did: And the ministers execute civil government, because Elias and Samuel did. Io. Whitgifte. The words in that page be these: May not therefore christian Magistrates, in Christian common weals, for order and decency, appoint a several kind of apparel, aswell to Ministers, as to other states of men? judges, Sergeants, Aldermen, and Citizens, are known by their apparel, and why may not the Ministers be so likewise? are they not under subjection? be they not subject to civil laws and ordinances? aught they not to obey their governors in all things not against the word of God? If it had pleased T. C. to have set apart dallying, he might have seen, that from the last section of the. 54. page, unto the fourth section of the. 56. page my drift is to prove that Ministers may differ from other by their apparel, and that they may have a distinct kind of garments from lay men, and that the civil Magistrate hath authority, for order & decency to appoint a several kind of apparel to Ministers. Now if he would have gathered truly, he should have framed his argument thus: Christian Magistrates have authority in Christian common weals, for order & decency, to appoint a several kind of apparel to Ministers. Ergo▪ Ministers may differ and be known from other by their apparel. Whether that the civil Magistrate may appoint them to wear such apparel as was used in the Pope's time or not, that I handle at large, even from the. 4. section of the. 56. page to the portion of the Admonition in the 62. If T. C. had marked this mine order, he would not so confound himself, and delude his Reader, by such untrue collections of my arguments. Touching the other examples of baptizing by women, and civil offices in ecclesiastical people, because he hath not quoted the page (which argueth he knoweth not where to find them, or that he is loath the reader by searching the places, should perceive his corrupt dealing in the gathering) I will defer answering of them, until I come where they, or any similitude of them may be found. In the mean time with the first he charges me untruly: and the second I intend to justify. T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 4. In the. 69. page he saith, Cyprian (speaking of the office of an Archbishop) which is a manifest petition of the principle. For it being that which should have been * It is proved sufficiently in the trea●se of Archbishops. proved, M. Doctor taketh it for granted. And in divers places, speaking of the Archbishop, he goeth about to deceive his reader with the fallation of the equivocation, or divers signification of the word. For whatsoever he finds said of Archbishop & Bishop in times past, he bringeth to establish our Archbishops and Bishops, when notwithstanding those in times past, were much different from ours, and are not of that kind, as shall appear afterward. Io. Whitgifte. As though Cyprian may not speak of the office of an Archbishop, except he express his name, or as though the circumstance of the place may not declare, that he speaketh of such an office. But how justly I am here charged with a manifest petition of a principle, I shall have better occasion to declare, when I come to answer the manifest cavil which T. C. useth, touching that place of Cyprian. How also in divers places, speaking of the Archbishop, I go about to deceive my reader with the fallation of equivocation, (which is only said in this place without any manner of proof, or any one example) shall likewise appear, when I come to answer the reply touching that matter, where it will evidently fall out, that T. C. is greatly deceived, in that he supposeth the Archbishops and Bishops in times past, so much to differ from ours, especially if he mean the difference to be in authority and office. T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 5. In the. 239. page he reasoneth, that for so much as those which wear the apparel, do edify, Another untrue collection. therefore they edify by reason of the apparel, which is to make that the cause, which is not, but only cometh with the cause. Io. Whitgifte. You deal in this as you have done in the rest, that is corruptly: for the second reason which I there use, to prove that the apparel doth edify, is this: That such as have worn the apparel, and do wear it, by the ministry of the word, have greatly edified, and do daily. In the which argument I make not the apparel the efficient or substantial cause of edifying, but an accidental cause. For you know that it is an order and law in the Church of England, that none should either administer the Sacraments, or preach, except he receive the apparel appointed: forasmuch therefore as he that refuseth to wear the apparel by order of this Church, may not preach, and therefore can not that way edify, and he that weareth that apparel may preach, and so edify, therefore the apparel per accidens doth edify, even as the Church, the Pulpit, and such other things do, which edify not per se, of themselves, but per accidens, accidentally, as all other accidental ceremonies do. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 6. In the. 240. page. he reasoneth thus, that the surplice. etc. be notes, & notes of good ministers, therefore they be good notes of ministers, which is a fallation of composition, when a man thinketh that whatsoever is said of a thing by itself, may be said of it when it is joined with another. Io. Whitgifte. The Admonition saith, that cap, gown, tippet. etc. have the show of evil, seeing the Popish priesthood is evil. To the which I answering, say on this sort: When they were a sign and token of the Popish priesthood, than they were evil, even as the thing was which they signified, but now they be signs and tokens of the ministers of the word of God, which are good, and therefore also they be good. What can you say to this manner of speaking? is it not true to say that they were signs of evil, when the things that they signified were evil, and now they be signs of good, seeing the things they signify be good? and as they were evil signs, when they signified evil things, so they be now good signs, because they signify good things. Do we not commonly call the signs and notes good or evil; even as the things signified be good or evil? None is so ignorant that knoweth not this: and therefore my reason is good, but your collection is like itself. I have used no other manner of reasoning or speaking in this place, than M. Bucer doth in the same matter, Fol. 59 &. 60. And therefore this is rather spoken against him, than against me. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 7. In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus: Those which authorised the book of Common prayer, were studious of peace, and building the Church, therefore those which find fault with it, are pullers down of the Church, and disturbers of the peace, which is a fallation of the Accident, when a man thinketh that every thing which is verified of the subject, may be likewise verified of that which is annexed unto it. The further confutation of the which arguments I refer unto their places. Io. Whitgifte. The Admonition saith, that those people, in which and by whom the book of Common prayer was first authorized, were studious of peace, and of building up of Christ's Church. Whereupon I conclude, that if that be true, than the defacers of that book be disturbers of the peace. Which I gather of that that they themselves have granted, and as I am persuaded truly: neither do I understand how it can be made a fallation ab accident. For I think that the meaning of the authors of the Admonition is, that these men showed themselves desirous of peace, and of building up the Church, even in collecting and authorizing that book (or else to what purpose should they make any mention of them) which if it be true, as it is, than the argument must of necessity follow. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 8. There be divers other which he hath, which are so far from just conclusions, as they have not so much as any colour of likelihood of argument, which I can not tell where to lodge, unless I put them in the common inn, which is that, which is called the ignorance of the Elench. As in the. 68 page, when he concludeth thus, * An untruth, for there is no such aagument. that Cyprian speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome, Ergo he speaketh of an Archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. I might here justly quarrel with you for leaping so disorderly, sometimes forward and sometimes backward, as from the. 240. page to the. 149. and from that to the 68 etc. But I let all such things pass, and come to the matter. In the. 68 page as you quote it, but in deed the. 69. after I have declared the true meaning of Cyprian, I add, that Cyprian there speaketh not of the usurped authority of the Bishop of Rome over all Churches, but against the insolency of some, which despising their Metropolitan or Archbishop, did with their factiousness trouble the Church. Which words I added, to declare how untruly the Papists do abuse that place of Cyprian, to prove the Pope's authority over all the Churches, when he only speaketh of the authority of an Archbishop or Bishop in his own province or diocese. True it is that Cyprian doth not speak of the authority of the Bishop of Rome over all Churches, but of the authority that Cornelius then Bishop of Rome, or Cyprian himself had in his own province: neither will any deny this but Papists. Now to pervert this my plain meaning, and to father on me whether I will or not, this argument, he speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome, and therefore of an Archbishop, argueth a mind disposed to con , and a stomach desirous rather to deface the person, than to give care to the matter. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 9 And in the. 71. pag. * Other untruth. There must be superiors, Ergo, one minister must be superior unto an other. There must be degrees, therefore there must be one Archbishop over a province. Io. Whitgifte. There are no such reasons, those that be in that place alleged, are only out of Jerome and Chrisostome, and of greater force than will be truly answered. T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 10. And in the. 73. there was one over every congregation, therefore there was one over all the ministers Another untruth in the province. These and a number like unto these, M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his book, which as Nero said of his master Senecas works, cleave together like sand: and thus let it be seen, whose arguments are most justly concluded, those of the Admonition or these of M. Doctors. Io. Whitgifte. It is a shame to lie of the devil. Where find you in all that page any such argument or similitude of it? but surely you have done me a great pleasure, who searching my book so diligently for arguments to quit the Admonition, have not found one, but most vainly and untruly feigned those to be which be not. Truly, I do not think myself in every circumstance to be so circumspect, but that I may minister sometime matter to a quarreler, howbeit, as yet you have not found any thing for your purpose. And I shall most heartily desire the reader, to judge of the rest of your doings, even according to these beginnings. An Exhortation to such as be in authority and have the government of the Church committed unto them, whether they be Civil or Ecclesiastical Magistrates. Io. Whitgifte. COnsidering the strangeness of the time, the variety of men's minds, and the marvelous inclinations in the common sort of people (especially where the Gospel is most preached) to embrace new invented doctrines and opinions, though they tend to the disturbing of the quiet state of the Church, the discrediting and defacing of such as be in authority, and the maintaining of licentiousness and lewd liberty: I thought it good to set before your eyes the practices of the Anabaptistes, their conditions and qualities, the kind and manner of their beginnings and proceed, before the broaching of their manifold and horrible heresies, to the intent that you understanding the same, may the rather in time take heed to such as proceed in like manner: lest they being suffered too long, burst out to work the same effect. I accuse none, only I suspect the authors of this Admonition, and their fautors: what cause I have so to do, I refer to yourselves to judge, after that I have set forth unto you the anabaptistical practices, even as I have learned in the writings of such famous and learned men, as had themselves experience of them, when they first began in Germany, and did both personally reason with them, and afterwards very learnedly writ against them: neither will I in this point writ one word, which I have not my author to show for. An answer to the Exhortation to the civil Magistrates. T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 1 IT is more than I thought could have happened unto you, once to admit into your mind, this opinion of Anabaptisme, of your brethren, which have always had it in as great detestation as yourself, preached against it, as much as yourself, hated of the followers and favourers of it, as much as yourself. And it is yet more strange, that you have not doubted to give out such slanderous reports of them, but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seat of justice, and thereby (so much as in you lieth) to corrupt it, & to call for the sword upon the innocent, (which Big words. is given for their maintenance and safety) that, as it is a boldness untolerable, so could I hardly have thought, that it could have fallen into any, that had carried but the countenance and name of a professor of the Gospel, much less of a Doctor of divinity. Before you will join with us in this cause, you will place us whether we will or not, in the camp of the Anabaptistes, to the end you might thereby, both withdraw all from aiding us, which are godly minded, as for that you fearing (as it seemeth) the insufficiency of your pen, might have the sword, to supply your want other ways. And if we be found in their camp, or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the Church, efacers of such as be in authority, maintainers of licentiousness & lewd liberty (as you do seem to charge us with) we refuse not to go under those punishments, that some of that wicked sect received, for just recompense of their demerits. You say you will not accuse any, (a) A charitable judgement, and yet before he reproved the l like. I know it is for want of no good will, that you do not accuse them, of whose condemnation & extreme punishment, we might be sure, if your hand were as strong as your heart. But you suspect the authors of the Admonition, and their fautors. (*) Charity is not suspicious. Let us therefore see, whether there be just 1. Cor. 13. 5. matter to bear out, and to uphold this suspicion. You will bear men in hand, that if we be not already full Anabaptists, yet we are in the way thither, the fotesteps whereby you trace us, must be considered. Io. Whitgifte. There is no cause why you should so marvel at the matter, all things well considered, neither do I think that the Anabaptistes do so greatly detest and hate them, as you would make us believe. I do not accuse them of the doctrine of Anabaptisme (as you yourself in the end of this section do acknowledge) but I declare that I greatly suspect them, because they come so near unto the qualities and practices of the Anabaptistes, and use the same beginnings: whether this my suspicion be true or no I refer it to the judgement of others. If the reports be slanderous, let them take their lawful remedy against me: but if they be most manifest, than it is convenient that the Magistrates have understanding thereof. Your great words do not answer the matter. I fear not the insufficiency of my pen (I thank God) neither is there any cause why I should: for the truth hath always a plentiful defence, whereas error and schism is compelled to use arrogant, opprobrious, and contemptuous speeches to maintain itself. Of all other T. C. hath lest cause to complain of such extremity, or to speak in this manner. I have much more cause to accuse his undutiful and unthankful nature. If Charity be not suspicious, why do you then thus not suspect, but directly give sentence, that it is not for want of good will, that I do not accuse them of Anabaptisme? 〈◊〉 it not lawful for me to suspect, and is it lawful for you to condemn? You took upon you to reprove me before for judging, and can you fall so soon into it yourself, 〈◊〉 deed charity is not suspicious without just and lawful causes: but whether the causes be just or not, let those judge to whom it doth especially appertain. Io. Whitgifte. The first article. page 2. Sect. 1 First Anabaptisme tendeth to this end, that (in those places where the Gospel hath been for a time preached, and where Churches be reform) the Gospel may be hindered, the Churches disquieted, the simple brought to doubt of the Religion that hath been taught them: contentious and unquiet minds may have matter to work on, the preaching of the Gospel become odious: finally that Magistrates and such as be in authority, may be contemned, and despised of their subjects and inferiors. T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 2. It is all true you here allege of the Anabaptistes: God be praised there is nothing of it true in us. If through these questions moved, the Church be disquieted, the disquietness rises in that the truth and sincerity which is offered, is not received. We seek it in no tumultuous manner, but by humble suit unto them, to whom the redress of things pertain, and by teaching as our callings will suffer. If all those are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme, which move controversies when the Gospel is preached: (*) The ca is 〈◊〉 thing like. Then those that taught that the Gentiles wear to be preached unto, when as the most of the believing Jews (which likewise preached the Gospel) thought otherwise, are to be counted in the way of Anabaptisme. Likewise, those that preached that circumcision was not necessary unto salvation, when as a great number of Christians at the first thought it necessary. Then Master Zumglius, and Decolampadius smelled of Anabaptisme, which went about to overthrow divers things, which Master Luther held. I could go further with this, but I content myself with these examples. If any be brought in doubt, or hatred of the truth hereby, or any man take occasion to be contentious, it is not in the nature of the doctrine which is taught, but in the corruption of their minds, nor it is not offence given, but taken: nor this doctrine can be no more charged, than the rest of the Gospel, which is a (*) sword that cutteth a City or kingdom in sunder, and setteth a (*) fire where Mat. 10. 34. there was none, and putteth contention between the father and the son. But what is to give an Luc. 12. 49. incurable offence unto the simple, and matter to the enemy to rejoice in, to all good Christians of tears and weeping, if this be not, to make the world think, that numbers of those which profess the Gospel, are infected with the poison of Anabaptisme, which can not be touched with the smallest point of it? As for the Magistrate, and authority, we acknowledge the lawfulness, necessity, A good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unfayne . and singular commodity of it, we commend it in our sermons to others, we pray for them, as for those, of whose good or evil estate, hangs the flourishing or decay of the common wealth, and Church both. We love them as our Fathers and Mothers, we fear them, as our Lords and Masters, and we obey them in the Lord, and for the Lord. If there be any thing, wherein we do not according to that which is commanded, it is, because we can not be persuaded in our consciences, that we may so do (whereof we are ready to tender a reason out of the word of God) and if that will not serve, forthwith to submit ourselves, to that punishment, that shall be awarded against us. And herein, we first call the Lord God to witness of our meaning, and then we refer ourselves to the consciences of all men in the sight of God. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing is here said of you in the defence of the authors of the Admonition, but the Anabaptistes will say the same in there's: Let the like effects proceeding from the like causes, and in like manner judge the likelihood betwixt the Anabaptistes and them. One of the chief notes that are given of Anabaptistes by Zuinglius in his Zuinglius book called Ecclesiastes, and in his other books where he speaketh of them, is, that they sow discord and contention in those Churches where the Gospel hath been truly preached, and that about external matters, as it may more at large appear in the second edition of my answer to the Admonition, And tell me I pray you what Church hath any of them settled themselves in, but in such, wherein the Gospel hath been well The admonitors justly accused of contention. planted before? or in what place have they for any time remained, where they have not with contention and factions troubled not that place only, but the whole country round about in like manner? Surely if they preached doctrine necessary to salvation (that is the Gospel) and in those places wherein the Gospel is not received, then if contentions should arise, the cause were not to be ascribed unto them, but unto their hearers only: but seeing they ran not teach the Gospel more sincerely than it is taught, and seeing the matters they contend for, be not of such necessity, that the Churches should for them be disquieted, seeing also that they seek reformation (as they call it) neither in due time, due place, nor before meet people: And finally, seeing contentions are raised by them in those places where the Gospel is received, I see not how they can avoid the just accusation of contentieus' people, and disturbers of the peace of the Church. For if you ask of the time: the Admonition was published after the Parliament (to the which it was dedicated) was ended. If you Their disorder in publishing the Admonition. speak of the place: it was not exhibited in Parliament (as it aught to have been) but spread abroad in corners, and sent into the Country. If you inquire of the people: it came first to their hands who had lest to do in reforming. Likewise your sermons of these matters: when preach you them? surely even in this troublesome Their disorder in preaching. and tumultuous time, when there is especial occasion to move men to prayer, to unity, and to the embracing of the substance of Religion, which by all means is sought to be overthrown. Where preach you them? even where they do least good and most harm: in places where the Gospel hath been already planted, yea and often times in secret conventicles and corners, which the truth never seeketh, but upon extreme necessity: and before whom preach you? not before such as have authority to redress, but before the common people, who (although some of them be godly and sober) yet for the most part be greatly delighted with novelties, love such schoolmasters as teach liberty, and continually inveigh against superiors. All this being true, as you can not deny it to be true, there is no cause why you should be offended with the setting down of the first article. To preach the Gospel is a thing necessary unto salvation: to preach that circumcision and such like ceremonies be not matters of salvation, is a necessary doctrine, & of the substance of Religion. Zuinglius and Oecolampadius and other differed from Luther in some matters of substance, and yet did they orderly and lawfully with the consent of their Magistrates proceed in these matters: wherefore these examples help you nothing: for the matters you contend for, be not of the same nature, neither do you proceed in like manner. The same answer may be made to all other like examples, that you can use in these matters. But because I will not lean only to mine own judgement in this case, let it not grieve you if I set down M. Zuinglius opinion touching the same, who in his book called Ecclesiastes, speaking against the Anabaptistes says on this sort, If they were sent of God, & endued with the spirit of God, they would have Zuingl. in ecclesi. construed in the best part these external things, which be not as yet rightly reform, they would have become all things to all men, that they might have won all to Christ. etc. M. Caluine also in his book against the Anabaptists says, that when under the colour of a Calvin adversus Anabap. zeal of perfection, we can bear no imperfection, either in the body, or in the members of the Church, it is the devil which puffeth us up with pride, and seduceth us with hypocrisy to make us forsake Christ's flock. Whatsoever you allege for the salving of your contentious doctrine out of ye.. 10. of T. C. useth the same defence for his contention, that the Anabaptists do. Matthew verse. 34. the same do the Anabaptists use for their excuse also, as Zuinglius testifieth in his Ecclesiastes, his words be these. Their doctrine bringeth forth nothing but contention & tumults, in the defence whereof they allege that Christ said, I came not to send peace but the sword: to whom we answer, that this sword hath no place among the faithful: Zuing. in ec. for it divideth the faithful from infidels: but they make contention and brawling among the The sword which Christ sendeth is not between the faithful. faithful, & that for external things. hitherto Zuinglius: which is a sufficient answer to you also using the same excuse, & moving contentions in like manner & matters. The same sense have the words of Christ. Luc. 12. ver. 49. for the Gospel is a sword that divideth the faithful from infidels, but not the faithful among themselves. It is the greatest offence to the simple, and most worthy of Christian tears and weeping, that men should cloak and colour their arrogancy, contention, and errors, with a false pretence of godly zeal for the purity of faith, the sincerity of the Gospel, and the reformation Bucer in. 4. Eph. of the Church, as Master Bucer in. 4. ad Ephe. says that somedyd even in his time. What you think and teach of the authority of the civil Magistrate will appear hereafter more plainly in some other parts of your book, your additions to your protestation of allowing Magistrates, and of your obedience to them, may colour your abridging of their authority: For if they command you any thing wherein you intend not to obey, you may say, they commanded not that in the Lord, and that it is against your conscience: These exceptions or excuses be very general, & may with you (who in all things pretend the word of God, and conscience) strayghten the authority of the Magistrate to your own purpose. But hereof we shall something more plainly (although not fully) understand your opinion hereafter. The same Protestation that you make, it may appear that the Anabaptistes made also in the beginning, as Zuinglius declareth in his Ecclesiastes. I W. The second Article. pag. 2. Sect. 2. Secondly, they bitterly inveighed against ministers and preachers of the Gospel, saying, that they were not ordinarily and lawfully Bul. fol. 1. 〈◊〉. 18. 87. 102. 244. called to the ministery, because they were called by the Magistrate, and not by the people: that they preached not the Gospel truly, that they were Scribes and Pharisies: that they had not those things which Paul required in a minister. 1. Tim. 3. That they did not themselves those things, which they taught unto other: that they had stipends, and laboured not, and therefore were ministers of the belly, that they could not teach truly, because they had great livings, and lived wealthily and pleasantly, that they used not their authority in excommunication, that they attributed to much unto the Magistrate. T. C. pag. 3. &. 4. There was never Heretic so abominable, but that he had some truth to cloak his falsehood, should his untruths and blasphemies, drive us from the possession of that, which he holdeth truly? no not the Devil himself, saying, that God had given his Angels charge over his, can thereby wring this sentence from us, why we should not both believe it, and speak it, being a necessary truth to believe and speak. You may as well say, we are Anabaptistes, because we say, there is but one God, as they did, one Christ as they did. etc. And here I will give the Reader a taste of your Logic, that you make so much of in your book. * This is your own Logic, & these be arguments of your own framing. The Anabaptistes say that the Churches should choose their ministers, and not the Magistrate, and you say so, therefore you are Anabaptistes, or in the way to Anabaptisme. The Anabaptistes complained, that the Christians used not their authority in excommunication, and so do you complain, therefore you are Anabaptistes, or in the way to them. I will not lay to your charge, that you have not learned Aristotle's Priorums, which saith, it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as often as the mean in any syllogism, is consequent to both the extremes. But have you not learned that which Seton, or any other halfpenny logic telleth you, that you can not conclude affirmatively in the second figure? And of this sort are every one of your surmises contained in this treatise, which you entitle, an exhortation. etc. And if I liked, to make a long book of little matter (as you do) I would thus gather your arguments out of every branch which you ascribe, as common unto us with the Anabaptistes, as you make ado, upon every place, which is quoted by the Admonition to the Parliament. But answer, I pray you, in good faith are you of that judgement, that the civil Magistrate should ordain ministers? (1) Not: but that may be the true church of Christ wherein there is no excommunication: the contrary whereof the Anabaptist affirm. Or that there should be no excommunication, as it was, and is used in certain the Helvetian Churches? If you be, your controversy is not so much with us, as with the Bishops, which both call ministers, and excommunicate. If you be not, why is that anabaptistical in us, which is Christian and Catholic in you? And why do you go about, to bring us in hatred for those things, which you do no more allow, than those whom you thus endeavour to discredit? we do not say that there is no lawful, or no ordinary calling in England, for we do not deny, but that he may be lawfully called, which is not ordinarily, as M. Luther, Melancthon, Zuinglius, Decolampadius. And there be (2) By what a though e presume those parishes so 〈◊〉 places in England, where the ministers be called by their parishes in such sort, (3) What scriptures, or where▪ will you not quote one. as the examples of the scripture do show to have been done, before the eldership & government of the Church be established. I know not any, that saith, that the Gospel is not truly preached in England, and by those also that are not of the same judgement, that the Admonition to the Parliament is of. But if it be said, that it is not generally of every one of them, and in all points, or not so often, or not there where their duty bindeth them, and they are called unto, or not so sincerely, or without mixture, as it aught to be, than there is nothing said, but that, which we fear, may be too easily proved. It it be said of some, that in certain there are found some of those things, that were reprehended in the Pharisees, what is that to prove, that they be Anabaptistes that speak of it. Yourself in one place of your book, call the authors of the Admonition, and their favourers, Pharisees, who do all things to be seen of men, and therefore they sigh, and hold down their heads. etc. And this you speak, against them that preach the Gospel. Therefore by your reason you give sentence of Anabaptisine against yourself. You promised you would not writ one word, whereof you had not your author for it. First you have (4) This is untrue perverted the meaning of the Anabaptistes, in that wherein they acculed the godly Ministers, that they were not according to that which is written in the third of the. 1. Epist. to Timothe, and all because you would multiply the number of your likelihoods. For they charged the Ministers, by that place, of dissolutdnesse and looseness of life, and corruption of manners, and we allcadge it to prove that they should be able to teach and instruct, against the dumb ministery that is abroad. But that which followeth, uttereth not only great (5) Is it be not oh, what may be 〈◊〉 of you. untruth and falsification of the author, but showeth a mind desirous to slander, and sorry (as it seemeth) that those which you so grievously discredit, are no lyker the Anabaptistes, than they be. I will set down the words, as they are written in the. 102. leaf, that it may appear how faithfully you have dealt. Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui sripendium accipiunt, non esse veros Deiministros, neque posse docere veritatem, sed esse ventris ministros, qui o jose accipiant ingentia stipendia, ex illis rebus, quae simulachris immolatae fuerunt, & ex divitijs splendide & luxuriose vivant, cum tamen Christus dixit, gratis accepistis, gratis date, & prohibuit duas tunicas, peram & pecuniam habere, preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse, & mandasse reliquis, ut idem faciant, itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii, sed laborare & gratis ministrare, & quia hoc non faciunt, non posse ipsos veritatem docere. They say What other thing is affirmed in the second articles freely (speaking of the Anabaptistes) that the preachers which take stipends, can not be the true ministers of God, nor teach the truth, but are ministers of the belly, which to live idly take great stipends, of those things which were offered to images, and do of their riches live gorgeously, and riotously, when notwithstanding Christ said, you have received freely, give freely, and forbade them to have two coats, or a scrip, or money. Besides that, they say that Paul laboured with his own hands, and gave commandment, to the rest of the Ministers, that they should do so, and therefore they conclude, that they should have no stipend for their office, but labour and minister for naught, and because they do not so, they cannot teach the truth. Now let all men judge, whether it be one thing, to say, that they aught not to have stipends, that labour not, or to say as the Anabaptistes said, that it was not lawful to have any stipend, or to say, they could not teach truly, because they had great livings, or because they had any livings at all. Although I never read nor herded any of those that you mean, say, that those which had great stipends and livings could not preach truly. It may be that divers have said that it were meet, the ministers should be content, with competent stipends, and that the overplus of that might go to the supply of the wants of other ministers livings, and to the maintenance of the poóre, or of the university, and that that excess, is the cause of divers disorders in those people, that have it, but that they could not preach truly (when they preached) which had great livings, I for my part never heard it. I think you would not be exempted from reprehension of that, wherein you fault, and therefore I know not what you mean by these words (that they did not those things themselves which they taught others) we profess no such perfection in our lives, but that we are oftentimes behind a great deale-in doing of that which is taught to be our duties to do, and therefore think it necessary that we should be reprehended, and showed our faults. Whereas you say that the Anabaptistes accused the ministers, for giving to much to the Magistrates, I have showed what we give, and if it be to little, show us and we will amend our fault. I assure you it grieveth me, and I am even in the beginning weary, of turning up this (6) Note his mother est mannerly speeches. dung, and refuting so bane and frivolous slanders, with out all show and face of truth, and therefore I will be brief in the rest. Io. Whitgifte. I speak not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certain note whereby they may be known: but of their other qualities and manner of talk and Preaching. The words be M. Bullingers, they be not mine. The arguments framed, be yours, and neither his nor mine. Your disciples magnify you, because your usual talk both public and private, is They seek not the reformation but the diffamation of ministers. against the Ministers of the Church, against their calling, against their preaching, against their life. etc. which you do not to reform them (for you do it in their absence and to the people) but to deface them, and to discredit them: not to promote the Gospel (which they preach as diligently and sincerely as you do) but to bring them into hatred with the people, whereby you might the rather prevail in your enterprises: not to reform their manners (for they may compare with you in all kind of honesty and duty) but to erpresse your malice and wrath: for that which Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench. contra Anabap. speaketh of them, (It is melancholy and wrath, not true zeal of which they glory) may be truly verified of you, and thereof let this your book be judge. Now if I say, that in this point you agree with the Anabaptistes, I do not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes: but this I conclude, that you are not for such invemues to be esteemed as more pure in deed than your brethren, nor they through such slaunde os speeches of yours to be discredited: because herein you speak or practise nothing against the true Ministers of the word of God, but that which the Anabaptistes have done in the self same form and manner before you. And that these be qualities worthy to be observed in the Anabaptistes, and such as proceed in like manner, it may appear not only by this observation of M. Buliinger, but: of other learned and Godly men also, that have written against them, and given notes of their qualities. Zuinglius in his Book before named saith, That they speak evil both Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speak evil of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in less of the Civil Magistrate, and of the ministers of the Church, that if at any time either of them according to their office, reprove them, than they straightway say that therefore they be enemies unto them, because they tell them of their faults: And in his Ecclesiast. he sayeth thus of them . They so slander, revile, and backbite the Ministers of the word, and of the Church, that they ought to be suspected and hated of all Godly men: even for their slanderous and cursed speaking. But their end and purpose is, by this means to win credit unto themselves, and to discredit such as set themselves against them, and detect their errors. The like saying he hath in his book De. Baptismo. To the same effect also speaketh Gastius of them in his Book De exordio & erroribus Catabap. Gastiu . where among other sentences he hath this: Their talk uttereth nothing else but reprehension of the Ministers of the word, and liberty in external things. Now judge I pray you, whether this hath been a quality worthy to be observed in the Anabaptistes or no? I do not speak against such as modestly and according to the rule of the Apostle. 1. Tunoth. 5. do reprove any, but against those that have nothing else in their mouths, but invectives against the Ministers of the word, observing neither place, time, nor any other circumstances, whom I still say in this point to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists. Now whether it be my Logic, or yours that you give a taste of in this placelette the learned Reader judge, to whom also I commit the trial of this spirit of yours, which bursteth out in such unseemly manner, upon the consideration of your own devised arguments, to feed your contempt and disdain with. In deed if you make arguments where I make none, and if you frame them as it pleaseth you, no marvel it is though you make a long book, and 'cause your Reader to believe, that my Logic is as simple as you would have it. But deal with me uprightly and honestly, and then set down my unskilfulness, and spare not, as I trust you would do to the uttermost in every point, if you could, seeing that you do it where there is no occasion at all offered unto you by me, but imagined of yourself. Well, let these quarrels go, more meet to be among boys than among men. Gratia Dei sum quod sum, neither have I any thing but that which I have received of him from whom cometh all good things. Both of the election of ministers, and of excommunication what I think, I will declare God willing in their proper places. The words here by me alleged (as I have said) are Master Bullingers, and they be truly spoken, and to good purpose as there it shall appear. In the mean while I refer you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers, to the 87. and 88 leaves of that his Book Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leaf of the same Book. You deny, that you say, there is no lawful or no ordinary calling of ministers in England, which is a strange hearing to me: for whereunto then tendeth all that which is written in your Book touching the electing and calling of Ministers? or First Admonition contrary to T. C. that which is written in the first Admonition Folio. 9▪ where they say in plain terms, that we have neither a right ministery of God, nor a right government of his Church. And Folio. 34. 35. 36. etc Folio 157. where they say, that this prescript form of Service used in this Church of England maintaineth an unlawful▪ ministery: or that which is so bitterly spoken against the Book of ordering▪ Ministers and Deacons, which they call the Pontifical? But you say that he may be lawfully called, which is not ordinarily. I would have you to speak plainly. Is our calling to the ministery here in England lawful, but not ordinary? If it be lawful, then is it not against the word of God, neither is there any Law in the Scriptures to the contrary, as you would make us to believe. But truly. I think that you were not here well advised, or else have you some subtle meaning, for you add immediately, that there be places in England where the Ministers are called by their Parishes. etc. So that I suppose you mean, that in some Parishes of England, there is a lawful calling of Ministers: if it be so, then is it not withstanding truly said, that you deny the manner of calling Ministers in this Church of England to be lawful: for that manner of calling is not to be ascribed to this Church, which is used in some conventicles and secret congregations, but that which is allowed by public and common authority. Your distinction of lawful and ordinary is not simply good, for whatsoever is lawful lawful is ordinary in a Church established. in a Church established, that is ordinary: I think that even very common reason doth teach this to be true. Wherefore certainly if our ministery be lawful, it is ordinary. If any Parish in England do elect or call their ministers otherwise than the orders and Laws of this Church doth permit, I can not see how that Parish can excuse itself of schism, and I think verily, that such Parishes aught to be looked too in tyme. I do not well understand▪ what you mean by these words, in such sort as the examples of the Scripture do show to have been done, before the Eldership and government of the Church be established. What examples be these? you quote no places where to find them▪ Or when was the government of the Church and Eldership established? If you had more plainly expressed these two things, we might have the better understood your meaning. But belike these Parishes do not call their Ministers in all points according to the rule that you would have prescribed, and therefore you make an Interim of it, until your government be fully finished. This is your dealing to allow of all things done out of order: yea though it be against your own order, so that it tend to the derogation of public and common order. Whether they say, that the Gospel is not truly preached in this Church of England The Admomtors deny the Gospel to be truly preached in England. or no, look in the whole discourse of their book: and in the second Admonition page. 6. where you may find these words, I say that we are so scarce come to the outward face of a Church ryghtely reform, that although some truth be taught by some preachers, yet no preacher may without great danger of the Laws, utter all truth comprised in the book of God, it is so circumscribed and wrappeth within the compass of such statutes, such penalties, such imunctions, such Advertisements, such Articles, such sober Caveats, second Admonition pag. 6. and such manifold pamphlets, that in manner it doth but peep out from behind the screen. What say you to these words? how can you salve them? Whether they generally call all the Ministers of the Gospel which be not on their sect Pharisees or not, let the whole discourse of both the Admonitions judge, and that Pamphlet entitled, An exhortation to the Bishops to deal brotherly with their brethren: In my answer to which pamphlet, I prove that this name Pharisey doth much more aptly agree unto the Authors thereof, and such like, than to the Bishops and other ministers, whom they so often call by that name, and so odiously compare them together in that pamphlet. I must once tell you again, that I make no arguments here, I do but only compare their qualities and conditions: I have performed my promise, if I 〈◊〉 not, show me wherein. I pervert not the meaning of the Anabaptistes▪ but set down the very words of M. Bullinger word for word, without any addition, tion, or alteration: it had been well if you had examined the places better. Touching the falsification, and untruth you charge me with, I think you be not in good earnest, it is but because you could no longer temper your heat: for you make many of these outcries, but I suppose you use them only as means to cast up your melancholy, which you call zeal. Whatsoever I there speak of the Anabaptistes, I fyndeit in the same form of words in those leaves of M Bullingers book, which I have quoted in the Margin. Peruse with a little more diligence Fol. 18. where he hath these words: Quod stipendia babeant, & non laborent, atque ideo ventris ministri sunt, and the. 102. And if you find not there word for word all this that I have here spoken, touching the stipends and livings of ministers, and in the same form of words, then use your hot Rhetoric: but I know they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem 〈◊〉. be there, and you reprove you can not tell what. If this so greatly trouble you, I will tell you what Zuinglius also saith of this matter in his Ecclesi istes, where he speaking of Anabaptists saith thus: They teach that such can not preach the Gospel sincerely, which have benefices, but their hope is to have the true Pastors expelled, that they may succeed in their places, and yet they publicly protest that they seek for no living. Now whether you or your men agree with them in this point or not, I neither Zuingl. in Eccles. deny nor affirm: if you be pricked, I can not blame you though you kick. Neither do I say, that those aught to have stipends which labour not, I do but report Bullingers' words of the Anabaptistes, I would have no man exempted from due reprehension: I only report this to show the malicious spirits of the Anabaptistes against the ministers of the word, that it may be known of what society they may be suspected to be, whose talk is wholly bent against the Ministers of the word of God. That you give too little to Magistrates it shall be showed in place. Though you be weary, it is no marvel, for it grieveth you to be touched so narrowly: And surely if you use no cleanlyer terms than you do in this place, or continued in pouring out your choler in such abundance, you will tire me also, or ever I make an end. Whatsoever I have here spoken of the Anabaptistes is most true, and therefore no slander. Io. Whitgifte. The. 3. Article. Pag. 2. Sect. 3 Thirdly, the whole reformation that was then in the Church displeased them, as not spiritual enough and perfect. For the Sacraments Bull. fo. 9 18. were not (as they said) sincerely ministered, things were not reduced to the apostolic Church, excommunication not rightly used, no amendment of life appeared since the preaching of the Gospel: therefore the Church then reform no more the true Church of Christ, than was the Papistical Church. T. C. Pag. 4. Sect. 1 We praise God for this reformation, so far forth, as it is agreeable unto the word of God, we are glad the word of God is preached, that the Sacraments are ministredthat which is wanting, we desire it may be added, that which is overmuch, cut off, and we are not ashamed to profess, that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the Church's Io. Whitgifte. The. 6. Article Page 3 Sect. 3 Sixthly, they pretended in all their doings, the glory of God, Bullin. fo. 10. the edifying of the Church, and the purity of the Gospel. T. C. pag. 5. Sect. 3 We pretend it not, but we propound it, and herein we call God to witness against our own souls. Io. Whitgifte. I can not let you to apply things to your own selves at your pleasure. Volenti, non All seek not the glory of God, that pretend so to do . fit iniuria. I set that of the Anabaptistes down to this end, that men may understand not all those to seek the glory of God. etc. which pretend the same: because the Anabaptistes have those pretences, and yet they seek nothing less. That the Anabaptistes, and such like disturbers of the Church have those pretences, not only M. Bullinger in those places by me quoted, but other godly and learned men also do testify. Zuinglius in his Ecclesiast. saith that they boast: that whatsoever they speak, they speak it of Zuinglius in Ecclesiast. zeal, being moved with the spirit. Gastius saith in his book De exordio & erroribus catabap. that under the pretence of zeal, they subvert whatsoever other men have builded. Gastius. Bucer in. 4. ad Ephes. saith, that Satan covereth and cloaketh arrogancy, self-love, envy, Bucer. and hatred, with a false pretence of godly zeal for the purity of faith, for the sincerity of Christ's doctrine, and for the salvation of the Church. It is expedient for men to know this, else might they through simplicity easily be deceived. Io. Whitgifte. The. 7. Article. Pag. 3. Sect. 4. They earnestly cried out against pride, gluttony. etc. They spoke Bull. fo. 11. 17. much of mortification: they pretended great gravity, they sighed much: they seldom or never laughed: they were very austere in reprehending: they spoke gloriously. To be short, Magna & varia erat ipsorum bypocrisis, they were great hypocrites, thereby to win authority to their heresy, among the simple and ignorant people. T. C. Pag. 5. Sect. 4. If you do note these things (which we say not) we will rather do them with the Anabaptistes, than leave them undone with you. Of our simple heart and meaning in them, we have before Psalm. 37. ver. 6. protested. In the mean season, we will patiently abide, until the Lord bring our * righteousness in this behalf unto light, and our just dealing as the noon day. Touching our sighing and seldom or never laughing, you give occasion after to speak of it, unto the which place, I reserve the answer. Io. Whitgifte. I do not writ this of them because I would have men abstain from reproving vice, and exhorting to godliness, but to let it be understood, that these be no certain proofs of the verity of the doctrine, being commonly used in most vehement sort of the heretics and sectaries to allure the people unto them, and to win credit unto their opinions. Io. Whitgifte. The. 8. Article. Pag. 3. Sect. 5. If they were at any time punished for their errors, they greatly Bull. fol. 11. complained that nothing was used but violence, that the truth was oppressed, that innocent and godly men which would have all things reform according to the word of God, could not be herded, nor have liberty to speak. That Zuinglius stopped their mouths, & defended his cause, not by the word of God, but by the authority of the magistrate. T. C. Page 5. Sect. 5. We are no stoics, that we should not be touched with the feeling of our griefs, if our complaints be excessive, show them and we will abridge them. what errors we defend, and how you maintain your part by the word of God, it will appear in the discourse of your Book. Io. Whitgifte. And yet your complaint in this point, as it is without just cause, so is it common to you with the Anabaptists, and therefore no true note of the verity of your doctrine, nor any sufficient cause why you should therefore be more gracious unto the people. The chiefest thing that the common sort have to say in your defence is, that you be persecuted, put from your livings etc. Which if it were altogether true, as it is reported, yet your complaint is no other, than the Anabaptists is, and therefore no more to be alleged for the justifying of you, than the like is for the justifying of them. Io. Whitgifte. The. 9 Article. Page. 3 Sect. 6. They found great fault with the baptizing of children, and ceremonies Bu. Fo. 10. 〈◊〉. used in the same: But afterward did utterly condemn it. T. C. Page. 5. Sect. 6. Their finding fault without cause in the ceremonies of baptism, cannot bar us from finding fault where there is cause. We allow of the baptism of children and hope through the goodness Mark the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. of God, that it shall be far from us, ever to condemn it. But to let your slanderous tongue go (all the strings whereof you seem to have loosed, that it may the more freely be thrown on't, ano walk against the innocent) where, where is the modesty you require in other, of not entering to judge of things unknown, which dare insinuate to the Magistrate, that it is like they will condemn children's baptism, which do baptize them, preach they should be baptized, and which did never by syllable, letter, or countenance, mislike of their baptism. Io. Whitgifte. Can you deny any thing to be true that I have spoken of the Anabaptists in this article? or can you deny but that yourselves also mislike the ceremonies used in baptism in this Church? yea and the same that they did? what followed in them is manifest: what will follow in you God knoweth: I judge not. What be my suspicions is declared in my answer to the Admonition, which if you have truly taken away, I am satisfied: but I am afraid the contrary will appear in your book. Io. Whitgifte. The. 10. 11. 12. Page. 3. Sect. 7. They taught that the civil Magistrate hath no authority in Bul. Fol. 19. Ecclesiastical matters, and that he aught not to meddle in causes of religion and faith. Page 4. Sect 1. That no man ought to be compelled to faith and to religion. Bul. Fol. 19 9 242. That Christians ought to punish faults, not with imprisonment, not with the sword, or corporal punishment, but only with excommunication. Fol. 178. T. C. Page. 5. Sect. 7. I answer as unto the fifth, and for further answer, I will refer the reader to those places, where occasion shall be given to speak of those things again. Io. Whitgifte. And I refer myself also to the Admonitions, and to your own book, and to my several answers which shall be made touching these matters. Io. Whitgifte. The. 13. Article. Page. 4. Sect. 3 They complained much of persecution. Fol. 11. 242. T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. 8. This is a branch of the eight, and added for nothing else but to make up the tale. Io. Whitgifte. And yet a worthy note, else should it not have been so often repeated, not only of Bullinger, but of other godly men also, as of Zuinglius, Gastius, and others. Io. Whitgifte. The. 14. Article. Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words, but with the shedding of their blood also. T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. ult. We fear no shedding of blood in her majesties days, for maintaining that which we hope we shall be able to prove out of the word of God, and wherein we agreed with the best reform churches, but certain of the things which we stand upon are such, as that if every hear of our head were a life, we aught to afford them for the defence of them. We brag not of any the lest ability of suffering, but in the fear of God, we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide, whatsoever he shall think good to try us with, either for profession of this, or any other his truth whatsoever. Io. Whitgifte. Thanks be unto God, there is no cause why you should fear. But wherefore do you then beat any such suspicion into the people's heads? or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing near you? and which no man once goeth about to offer unto you? what mean you in the. 59 page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poor Christians, and the professors of the Gospel, suffered, not far unlike Second Admoni. Fol. 59 to the six articles, which crafty heads devised, and brought the king her noble father unto, as they would do her majesty now? Can any thing be spoken more untruly, more suspiciously, nay I may rightly say, more seditiously? If there be such things in controversy betwixt us, that require defence even unto The state of the contention altered by T. C. death, yea and that if every hear of our head were a life, we aught to afford them for the defence of the same, then truly is there greater matters in hand, than every body doth consider of. Hitherto it hath been the common opinion, that our contention was but about trifles, about external things, such as might admit alteration, and were not of the substance of religion: but if this be true that you here set down, belike a great sort have been hitherto deceived. Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defence of life, you are much to blame that have not hitherto made them better known. I trust we shall in this book understand what they are. In the mean time the stout brags that are used by some, might well be spared: but we have oftentimes seen great clouds and small rain, and herded great cracks of thunder, and (thanks be unto God) small harm done. Neither are you more to be credited for these boasting, than were the Anabaptists for using the like. Io. Whitgifte▪ The. 15. Article. Page. 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schism, and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastors, and therefore most odiously they inveighed against such pastors, and sought by all means to discredit them. T. C. Page▪ 6. Sect. 1 We make no separation from the Church, we go about to separate all those things, that offend in the Church, to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel, might afterwards in the same bond of truth, be more nearly and closely joined together. We endeavour that every Church having a lawful pastor, which is able to instruct, all might be ranged to their proper Churches, whereas diverse, unless they go to other than their own parishes, are like to hear few sermons in the year, so far are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors. Let him that inveigheth against any pastor without good cause, bear the punishment: as for inveighing against heaping of living upon living, and joining steeple to steeple, and non residence and such ambition and tyranny, as beareth the sway in divers ecclesiastical people, if the price of the pacification, be the offending of the Lord, it is better you be displeased, than God be offended. Io. Whitgifte, Whether you make a separation or not, and a schism in the Church, let all men judge: and whether you draw the people from their ordinary pastors or not, let the secret conventicles (for I can call them no better) used not only in the city, but in other places of the country also testify: whether justly, and as it becometh you, you enuey against such pastors and preachers as mislike your opinion, and seek their discredit, let the bitter invectives in sermons before the people, when none of them is present, the common table talk, both your Admonitions, the first and the second, yea and this your passing modest book declare. Truly this article and every content in it, was never more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists, than it is, and may be of you. What you have to say against the ambition and tyranny of any such as you especially shoot at, we shall see in your particulars, I trust you will speak all you know, and more to, else you do degenerate. Io. Whitgifte. The. 16. Article. Page. 4. Sect. 6. There was no stay in them, but daily they invented new opinions, Fol. 18. and did run from error to error. T. C. Page. 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselves within the bonds of the word of God: we profess ourselves to be of the number of those, which should * grow in knowledge, as we do in age, and which labour that the Image Eph. 4. u. 13 Col. 3. u. 10. of God may be daily renewed in us, not only in holiness of life, but also in * knowledge of the truth of God, and yet I know no question moved, which hath not been many years before in other churches reform, held as truth, and therefore practised, and in our Church also have been some years debated. Io Whitgifte Thus much might they allege for themselves also, and apply those texts of scripture to as good purpose as you do. For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministery in the Church, that it might be a means to bring us to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our judgement, and broaching new opinions: for against such unconstancy, the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter. 4. Eph. ver. 14. True it is that we must daily grow in faith and love, to the full perfection whereof, we cannot attain in this life: but it doth not therefore follow, that we like children must be carried about with every wound of doctrine, and never remain constant in one religion. To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss. to be referred. I believe it will fall out that in this your reply, there will be found sundry articles, neither allowed nor practised in any Church reform, nor in our Church debated at any time heretofore. Io Whitgifte The 17. Article. Page. 4. Sect. 7. They were very stubborn and wilful, which they called constancy: Bu. Eo. 78. 244 they were way ward and froward: without all humanity, they judged and condemned all other men. T. C. Page. 6. Sect. 3 If we defend no falsehood or inconvenient thing, we cannot be counted stubborn or wilful, whereof we offer to be tried by the indifferent reader. For waywardness & inhumanity, we think it a fault, as we esteem godly society and affability to be commendable: and what is our behaviour herein: we likewise refer to their judgements, with whom we are conversant, and have to do with, being misseiudged and untruly condemned of you, we judge nor condemn no man, their vices we condemn, so far forth as the lists of our vocation doth permit us. Io. Whitgifte. Because the answer to this Article consists of (If,) and dependeth especially of the testimony of such as have been a convenient time conversant with you, I refer the judgement hereof to their experience, and indifferent considerations. Io. Whitgifte. The. 18. Article. Page. 4 Sect. 8. They sought to overthrow common weals, and states of government. Fol. 78. T. C. Page. 6. Sect. 4. We allow of common weals, * This seemeth to be contrary to that which be hath. Page. 35 as without which the Church cannot long continued, we speak not against civil government, nor pet against ecclesiastical, further than the same is an evimie to the government, that God hath instituted. Io. Whitgifte. So do the Anabaptists in words protest as it appeareth by these words of Zuinglius Zuingli. in Ecclesi. in his Eccle. Though they protest, and by oath deny that they take any authority from magistrates, y et shortly after we should have seen it come to pass that they would have been disobedient to all laws of magistrates, if once they had increased to that number, that they might have trusted to their own strength. But what your doctrine tendeth too (though peradventure you mean not so) it will, I think, appear when it is examined. Io. Whitgifte. The 19 Article. Page. 4. Sect 9 They gave honour and reverence to none, and they used to speak Fol. 79. to such as were in authority without any signification of honour, neither would they call men by their titles, and they answered chur shly. T. C. Page. 6. Sect. 5. If we give honour and reverence to none, let us not only have none again, but let us be had as those that are unworthy to live amongst men. I fear there be of those, which are your favourers, Ecclesiastical people, that if they should meet with my Lord Mayor of London, would strain courtesy, whether he or they should put off the cap first. We give the titles of Majesty, to the Queen our sovereign, of grace, to Duke and Duchess, of honour to those which are in honour, and so to every one, according to their estate. If we miss, it is not because we are not willing, but because we know not always what pertaineth unto them, and then our fault is pardonable. For answering churlishly, (*) Where nothing is mentioned of it, but it is referred (by like) to this place, and from hence posted over thither again. it is answered before in the seventh Article. Io. Whitgifte. judéede the Anabaptists in the end rejected all authority of superiors, and refused to give unto them their due titles and reverence, yet when they had for a time obtained their own desire they took that to themselves most ambitiously, which they refused to give to other. You are not so far go as yet in all states, but in the contempt of the state Ecclesiastical, you may compare with them to the uttermost: what you will do in the end touching the civil Magistrate (if you obtain your desire) I will not determine, but leave it to the 〈◊〉 of such as shall peruse these our books of such controversies. Io. Whitgifte. The. 20. Article. Page. 4. Sect. 10. They attributed much unto themselves, and pleased themselves Bul. Fol. 85. very well, other men they contemned, and therefore their minds were full of pride and contempt. T. C. Page. 6. Sect. 6. With acknowledging of our manifold wants and ignorances, we doubt not also to take upon us, with thanksgiving, that knowledge, which God hath given to every of us according to the measure of faith: we seek not to please ourselves, but the Lord and our briethrens, yea all men in that which is good. We reverence other men's gifts, so as we think the contempt of them, redoundeth to the giver. Therefore although the cominon infection be in us, yet we hope pride doth not reign in our mortal bodies. Io. Whitgifte. Well for the right application of this Article, I will go no further than to this your own book. Surely if the rest of your fellows have the same spirit, there was never Anabaptists in these qualities to be compared unto you. But I think better of some of them, so would I have done of you also, if I had not seen the contrary in you, even since our first acquaintance, but especially, sithence the time, wherein upon just occasions, I began to stir you: and now most evidently in your Reply, yea this very answer of yours to this article, verifyeth the same to have place in you, which in this 20. Article is ascribed to the Anabaptists. Io. Whitgifte. The. 21. Article. Page. 4. Sect. II They went not to preach in such places where the Gospel was Fol. 88 not planted, but only they insinuated themselves into those places, wherein the Gospel had been diligently preached: and where there were godly and quiet men: there they made a stir, they raised up factions and bred discord. T. C. Page 6 Sect. ult. We hold that it is no ministers part, to choose his own place where he will preach, but to arie How happenet it then that so many of you flock together at London▪ who calleth you? until he e choose of others. Likewise, that he insinuate not himself, but abide a lawful calling, & therefore this cannot agreed to us, but to those rather, which content themselves with a roving & wandering ministery, and defend the ministers own presenting and offering himself or ever he be called. Io. Whitgifte. And why have you then hitherto choose such places to remain and preach in, as London. etc. Where the Gospel without you, and before your time was planted? why have you there and in such like places disquieted the Church and sown the seed of contention? What calling have you had in those places, which you might not have by the self same means in other places also, where the Gospel is not so well planted? Truly this note is so common to all Anabaptists, and so notorious, that I Zuinglius. know very few writing against the Anabaptists, which do omit it Zuinglius reporteth it of them in his Elenc: contra Anabap. In his Ecclesiastes divers times, and in his Gastius. book de Baptismo. Gastius likewise, in his book de exordio & erroribus catabaptist. which they would not do, if it were not a note worthy to be noted. Surely I think that I am able to prove divers of you to have inhis ated yourselves to places (which pleased you) before you were) called thereunto▪ And I 〈◊〉 of that judgement, that a man 〈◊〉 lawfully so 〈◊〉 if h 〈◊〉 to do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to profit▪ For S. Paul says Lint. 3. A man may offer his help in the ministe tie in some respect. Qui episcopatum etc If a man desire the office of a Bishop. etc. Which place by the judgement of all the interpreters that I have read, doth signify that a man may offer himself with a mind to do good, so that he do not intrude himself, or seek by unlawful 1. Tim. 3. means to obtain that which he desireth: for than it is like that he seeketh not to profit other, but to profit himself. If there be any tou g or wandering ministers it is amongst yourselves, which wander p and down, from place to place to low co tion, and to deface by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reports such as mislike your pocéeding. Any other that may so truly and tly be called rovers and night-wanderers I know none. Io. Whitgifte. The 22. &. 23. Articles Pag. 5. Sect. 1. 2. They sought to be free from all laws, and to do what they list. Fol. 95. They were animated by crafty and subtle Papists, which did Fol. 11. seek the overthrow of the Gospel, and the restoring of Papisme. T. C. Pag. 7. Sect. 1 I, answer as to the fifth, and touching the. 23. refer the reader to a further answer in that place, where occasion is offered to speak of it again. Io. Whitgifte. And for just application of the. 22. Article I refer you to the 60. and. 61. Page of the second Admonition, where I would have you consider, what their meaning is by that Proviso, that they would have for themselves, and by that exemption that they require to have from the jurisdiction of the Bishops, justices of Peace. etc. It is not amiss also to weigh what the equality means that they seek for among the Clergy, and the state of the signory, where the Pastor must be the chief of what degree soever the rest of the seniors be, whether Earls, Barons. etc. Io. Whitgifte. The 24. Article. Page. 5. Sect 3. To be short the people had them in great admiration, because of Fol. 11. their hypocrisy, and straightness of life, and such as were of contentious natures joined with them, and commended their doings. T. C. Pate▪ 7. Sect. 2. So far forth as we may (for the infirmities wherewith we are enclosed) we endeavour to adorn the doctrine of the Gospel, which we profess, we seek not the admiration of men (if God do give, that we have honest report, we think we aught to maintain that, to the glory of God, and advancement of the Gospel. What is our straightness of life any other, than is required in all Christians? we bring in I am sure no monachisme or anchorisme, we eat and drink as other men, we live as other men, we are appareled as other men, we lie as other men, we use those honest recreations that other men do, and we think there is no good thing or commodity of life in the world, but that in sobriety we may be partakers of, so far as our degree and calling will suffer us, and as God maketh us able to have it. For the hypocrisy that you so often charge us with, the day shall try it. If any man join with us, with mind to contend, it is against our will, notwithstanding * Who is so blind as he that will not see? we know none; and what great stirrers and contenders they be which favour this cause, let all men judge. Io. Whitgifte. These be fair speeches, sooner said than proved: I accuse you not of these matters, I do but report the qualities of the Anabaptists, if your own consciences accuse you, or if you will needs apply these things unto yourselves (as I have said before) I can not let you. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. Pag. 5. Sect. 4. 5. These were the manners, conditions, practices, and proceed of the Anabaptistes in Germany, before they uttered their seditious and monstrous heresies. I leave the application hereof to your wisdoms, who easily can conjecture, what kind of men they be that come nearest to these steps. Only I desire you to be circumspect, and to understand that Anabaptisme (which usually followeth the preaching of the Gospel) is greatly to be feared in this Church of England, and almost plainly professed in this Admonition, the authors whereof agreed with them in these forenamed practices and qualities. T. C. Pag. 7. Sect. 3 Do you think to mock the world so, that when you have so unjustly, and so heinously accused, you may wipe your mouth, and say as you did before that you will not accuse any? and as now, that you leave the application? Is not this to accuse, to say that the authors of the Admonition do almost plainly profess Anabaptisme? Is not this to apply, to say that they agreed with the Anabaptistes in (*) A falsificatio for e addeth this word▪ all. all the forenamed practices and qualities? you would feign strike us, but you would do it in the night, when no man should see you, and yet if you have to do against Anabaptistes, you need not fear to proclaim your war against them: you have a glorious cause, you shall have a certain victory. I dare promise you, that you shall have all the estates and orders of this Realm to clap, their hands and sing your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and triumphant songs. But that you would convey your sting so privily and hissingly, as the Adder doth, it carrieth with it a suspicion of an evil conscience, and of a worse cause, than you make the world believe you have. Io. Whitgifte. Truly I am in good earnest: I mock not: I greatly fear Anabaptisme, which is an heresy that hath many branches, and créepeth in secretly under notable pretences: and therefore I thought it convenient to gather these notes together out of such learned & godly writers as have had experience of them, the which also I have more at large set out in the second edition of my book. If this offend you, the offence is Page. 19 etc. taken and not given: you are not able to accuse me justly hitherto of any untruth. I accuse none, because I know none, that will openly profess himself to be one, or plainly affirm any article which is of the substance of their heresy. But I see divers walking in the same steps that the Anabaptistes did, towards their heresies: and therefore I thought it my duty to admonish those that be in authority to take heed of them (Let men apply them as they see cause, and have experience) there can be no hurt in that, it shall make them the more circumspect, and arm them against the hypocriste of divers. How the authors of both the Admonitions do agreed with the Anabaptistes, in these forenamed practices, I have declared in my answer to your Reply. You falsify my words when you affirm, that I say they agreed with the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practices, and qualities, for I have not this universal sign all: if they agree with them in many, they are to be suspected. I think the Anabaptistes themselves, as they have divers and several opinions in doctrine, so had they also sundry qualities concerning life and conversation: and yet some there are which be common to them all. I know that all the estates and orders of this Reality hate Anabaptisme: I require not your promise for that matter, which you offer unto me Satis pro imperio. I know their detestation of that heresy, and therefore I am bold to open these practices & qualities unto them, lest they may by some men's hypocrisy, and close dealing be deceived. My words and writings be public, my speeches plain, and therefore if I sting, it is openly enough. The privy hissers and stingers, he those that secretly smite their neighbour, and hiss at them in their absence at tables, and in corners, and sting them behind their backs, when they are not present to answer for themselves: Such adders and Scorpions, swarm among you. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreover it may please you to consider the conditions & practices of the Donatists', who divided themselves from the congregation, Donatists. and had their peculiar Churches, or rather conventicles, in Africa. They taught also that all other Churches were spotted and impure, because of their Ministers. Finally, that there aught to be no compulsion used in matters of Religion and faith, and that none should be punished for their conscience. T. C. Page. 7. Sect. 4. Now you carry us from the Anabaptistes in Europe, to the Donatists in Africa, and you will paint us with their colours, but you want the oil of truth, or 〈◊〉 of truth, to 'cause your colours to cleave and to endure. The Lord be praised, that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke, yet it is not so strong that it is able either to turn us, or change us into what forms it pleaseth you. I shall desire the reader to look Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum & Augustin, and quoduultdeum: and in his first and second books against 〈◊〉 Letters, where he shall find of these heretics, that by comparing them with these, to whom M. Doctor lyk eth them, the smoke of this accusation might the better appear: For these slanders are not worth th' answering. To this division from the Churches, and to your supposed conventicles, I have answered. They taught that there were no true Churches but in Africa, we teach nothing less, than that there is no true Church but in England. If the Churches be considered in the parts, whether Minister, or people, there is none pure and unspotted, and this is the faith of the true Church, and not of the Donatists: if it be considered in the whole and general government and outward policy of it, it may be pure and unspotted, for any thing I know, if men would labour to purge it. The Donatists' vaunted themselves to be exempted from sin , and what likelihood is there between any assertion of the authors of the Admonition, and this fancy of the Donatists. To the last point of no compulsion to be used in matters of Religion denying it to be true, I refer the further answer to an other place. Io. Whitgifte. This that I have set down of the Donatists is all true, neither can you disprove one word of it. I writ so much of their practices as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatists. of the Authors of the Admonition. The Donatists divided th' mselues from the co gregation, and had peculiar Churches, or rather conventicles in Africa. These also divide themselves from the Church. And although they tie not the Church of Christ to any one corner, yet have they their several Churches, and secret meetings. The 〈◊〉 made this their excuse, why they departed from other Churches? because they were not pure and unspotted, and their ministers of evil life: These men for the like causes separate themselves from the Church also. The Donatists would have no 〈◊〉 used in 〈◊〉 of Religion, and faith: These men in effect be likewise minded: for they would have no 〈◊〉 punishment used, which may appear y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57 where they say that it 〈◊〉 not to make any laws 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉, because the government of the Second Admoni. fol. 57 Church is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the word, and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speak to the like purpose, whereof occasion willbe given hereafter better to consider. Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quodvult- 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatists Aug. de baeresib ad quodvult. were also Arians, but not all, 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions, of which sect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cited: But what is all 〈◊〉 to▪ Lib. 4 de fab. Haeret. the 〈◊〉? speak ot of their opinions, nor of all their conditions, but of such only, wherein these that separate themselves in our days, seem to agree with them. Similia (as you know) agree not in all points, it is sufficient if they do in those things in quibus 〈◊〉. Neither do I any otherwise report of them, than M. Caluine himself doth in his book against the Anabaptistes: and Augustine with others that writ of them. Surely neither in the whole, nor in part can the Church be unspotted in this world, not not in the outward policy and government of it: neither do I think that you are able to show any examples of such Purity: we have to the contrary even in the Apostolical Churches in the Apostles time, as the Church of Corinth, and of the Galatians. Master Caluine in his book adversus Anabaptistas' is directly against you, and in deed I think that you are not able to show one learned writer of your opinion in this point. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude, these men flatly join with the Papists, and by the self same assertions, bend their force against this Church of England. T C. Pag. 7. Sect. ult. Solomon saith that the beginning of the ordes of an unwise man is foolishness, b t the Ecclef. 10. ver. 13. latter end of them is mere madness: even so it 〈◊〉 out by you; for whilst you suffer yourself to be carried headlong of your affections, you hurl, you know not what, nor at whom, whatsoever cometh first to hand, and speak things that the eyes, and ears of all men, fee, and hear, to be otherwise: 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 them to the Anabaptistes, and Donatists, 〈◊〉 friend of yours might think, you said 〈◊〉, because such always s seeking dark and solitary places, might happily have some favourers, which are not known. But when you join them with the Papists which are commonly known to all men, whose doctrine they imp gne, as (*) And yet in defacing and depr ve this Church of England they fully join with them, and so oe not I well as you, whose marks and badges they can less away with than you, whose company they fly more than you, whose punishment they have called for more than you for your part have done, and therefore are condemned of them as rule, when you oftentimes carry away the name of mildness and moderation, which forsooth know (as you have professed) no commandment in the Scripture to put heretics to death: when I say, you join them thus with the Papists, you do not nely 〈◊〉 your credit in these untrue furmises (wherein I trust with the indifferent reader your never had any) but you make all other things suspected, which you 〈◊〉, so that you give 〈◊〉 occasion to take up the common proverb against you, I will trust you no farther than I see you. After you have thus yoked them with the Papists, you go about to show wherein they draw with them. Wherein I first ask of you, if all they that affirm or do any thing that the enemies of the Church do, are forthwith oyned and conspired with them against the Church? what (a) I say, that neither Christ nor Paul joined either with Gentil , Pharisees, or false Apostles against the church say you to S. Paul that joined with thee (*) Pharisee s Act. 23. u. 6 in the resurrection, with the false Apostles in taking no (*) wages of the Corinthians, our 2. Cor. II u. 12. Saviour Christ, which spoke against the Jews which were then the only people of God, as the Gentiles did which were their enemies, will you say therefore that either Saint Paul . Cor. 9 joined with the Pharisees or false Apostles, against the Church, or that our Saviour Christ joined against the Jews with the Gentiles? but let us see your slanders particularly, Io. Whitgifte. The same Solomon saith, that in the mouth of the foolish is the root of pride. Pro. 14. etc. Even so it falls out with you: for whilst with such proud words you seek to drive at me, you do but condemn yourself of folly. pilate and Herode Men of contrary judgements join together against the truth. were at enmity betwi te themselves, and yet they wyned together against Christ: The Pharisees and Saducees were of contrary opinions, yet were they both enemies to the doctrine of Christ. The Turk and the Pope be of contrary Religions, yet do they both conspire against the Gospel: Papists and Anabaptistes agree not either in opinion or in society, yet do they both seek to deface the Church of Christ: Even so they, though they impugn the doctrine of the Papists never so lie, & cast away their marks and badges never so far from them, though they cannot abide their company, yet do they with them by the same assertions, (though not by the same arguments) assault this Church of England, and bend their force against it. Did not the seditious jews within jerusalem, join with the Romans being their enemies, inprocuring the destruction of that City? you are not so ignorant as you would seem to be, I am sure you understand my meaning. How or where you have called for the punishment of the Papists more than I have 〈◊〉 and therefore you counted cruel, and I made and moderate, certainly I know not, I hear only yourself say so. What I have done, and where, I mind not to brag of at this time, I leave that for you. What I have professed concerning the putting to death of Herotickes, the same do I profess still, and am ready thereof to give an account at all times as I shall be required: although neither you, nor any man else, have herded me teach that doctrine, or profess it: but this is one of your glances by the way: when occasion is given me to speak of that matter I will plainly utter my conscience by the grace of God, In the mean time, it is no cause why I should be better thought of among the Papists, for both their practice and their doctrine is clean contrary. To your question I answer, that if they do that against the Church, which the enemies do against the same, then do they in that conspire with them against the Church: and therefore all your example 〈◊〉 used are to no purpose at all. For Saint Paul joined with the Pharisees and with the false Propheteo in those things which were allowed of the Church, and for the commodity of the Church, and therefore in no respect against the Church, the same answer I make to the example of Christ justly reproving the jews: if you would have used apt examples for your purpose, than should you have brought in such as being of contrary judgements, have notwythsta ding sought to overthrow one and the self same thing, although by divers means: But than should you have concluded against yourself, as you must of necessity dee. So that here where you would seem to say much, you have said nothing at all. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. pag. 5. Sect. ult. First the Papists affirm that we are not the true Church, not, that we have not so much as the outward face and she we of the true Church, and so do these men almost in flat and plain terms. T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 1 They do not deny but there is a visible Church of God in England, and therefore your sayings of them, that they do almost in plain and flat terms say, that we have not so much as any outward face and show of the true Church, argueth that you have almost no love in you, which upon one word once uttered, contrary to the tenor of their book, and course of their whole life, surmise this of them, and how truly you conclude of that word (scarce) it shall appear when we come to that place. Io. Whitgifte. They do in plain and flat terms writ as much as I do report of them in this article: for a manifest proof thereof refer the reader to the. 6. page of the second Admonition, and the. 53. of the first Admonition: and to the whole discourse of both. My (almost) is equivalent to they▪ searce. But whosoever shall well considèr the tenor of their books, and the course of their life, may easily understand, that both I might have leften out my almost, and they their scarce, likewise. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. Pag. 6. Sect. 1 Secondly the Papists say, that we have no ministery, no Bishops, no pastors, because they be not rightly and canonically called to these functions: the self same do these men affirm. T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 2. I have answered this in the second article of Anabaptisme, that you charge us with. Io. Whitgifte. Then have I answered the same there also. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation. etc. Pag. 6. Sect 2. Thirdly the Papists say that our Sacraments be not rightly ministered: and so say they likewise. T. C. Page. 8. Sect. 3 This is also answered in the third. Io. Whitgifte. That is, you have there closely confessed this to be true. But that the reader may understand that it is most truly verified of them, let him peruse that which is written in the second Admonition. fol. 43. where they say, the sacraments be wickedly 2. Admon, fol. 43. ministered: and in the first Admonition. fol. 89. and that also that followeth in this book. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation. etc. Pag. 6. Sect. 3 Fourthly the Papists wholly▪ condemn our book of common prayers, set out by public authority, and the whole order of our service: in that point do these men fully join with them also, for they condemn it wholly, and that with most bitterness. T. C. Page. 8. Sect. 4. I answer, that they do not condemn it wholly, but find fault with it, as in some points disagreeing with the word of God. Io. Whitgifte. For the proof of this article, read the first Admonition. fol. 85. 86. etc. 148. etc. the second Admonition fol. 9 10. 38. 39 etc. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation. etc. Page. 6. Sect. 4. Fiftly the Papists would not have the Scriptures read in the Church to the people: no more would they. For they say, reading is not feeding, but as evil as playing on a stage and worse to. T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 5. All men shall perceive, when I come to that place, how you have racked their words to an other sense, than they spoke them, in the mean season it is enough that they confess that reading in the Church is godly. Io. Whitgifte. It is well that you confess it to be godly, it will appear when I come to that place, that the authors of the Admonition, both writ and think far otherwise, except they writ one thing and think another. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. pag. 6. Sect 5. Sixtly the Papists deny the civil Magistrate to have any authority in Ecclesiasticalll matters, and so do they. T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 6. I have answered in the (*) Where you have not spoken one word of it. tenth article of Anabaptisme. Io. Whitgifte. Your answer is there very confused, and uncertain: but for the proof of this article, I refer the reader to certain notes which I have collected out of your book touching this matter in this my defence. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation etc. pag. 6. Sect. 6. To be short, the Papists refuse to come to our Church, to Communicate with us in the lords Supper: and these men would not have them by laws and punishment compelled thereunto. T. C. pag. 8. Sect. ult. I answer that Doeg, when he said that David came to Abimilech, said nothing but truth, and when they that witnessed against Christ that he said, destroy the temple, and in three days I will build it up again, said nothing but that our saviour Christ said. But yet Doeg was a slanderer, and the other, false witnesses: because the one spoke of mind to hurt, and the other understood it of another temple, than our saviour Christ meant it: so although you do in part rehearse their words, yet taking them contrary to their meaning (which might easily appear by the circumstances) I see not how you can be free from these faults, unless it be done ignorantly, which I wish were true for your own sake. And here I will desire thee gentle reader, to mark with what conscience this man saith, that they are joined and confederate with the Papists against the Church. The Papists mislike of the Book of common prayers for nothing else, but because it swerveth from their Mass book, and is not in all points like unto it. And these men mislike it, for nothing else, but that it hath to much likelihood unto it. And judge whether they be more joined with the Papists, which would have no communion or fellowship with them, neither in ceremonies, nor doctrine, nor government, or they, which forsaking their doctrine, retain part of their ceremonies, & almost their whole government: that is, they that separate themselves, by three walls, or by one, they that would be parted by the broad sea from them, or which would be bevided by narrow water, where they may make a bridge to come again, and displace the truth of the Gospel, as they have done in times past: They that would not only unhorsed the Pope, but also take away the styrrops, whereby he should never get into the saddle again: or they that being content with that, that he is unhorsed, leave his ceremonies and his government especially, as styrrops, whereby he may leap up again when as occasion serveth. They that are content, only to have cut the arms and body of Antichristianitie, or they which would have stump, and root all up. Io. Whitgifte. Better it is to have a bad excuse than none at all. Their words and meaning is plain, as shall appear when I come to them. I think in deed their meaning is, that they would not have them compelled to come to our Churches, and to communicate in the lords supper with us, as it is now ministered: For it is well known, how they themselves refuse to do the same, and how they have defaced both this Church, and the manner and form of administering the Sacrament: what they would do, if they might have their own devised reformation, and have the law in their own hands, I can not tell, but it is very like that they would be sharp and severe enough in compelling men to come. I speak of their opinion touching the compelling of men to come to our Church, unto the which they come not themselves. That which followeth in your Reply, I have sufficiently answered before, Pag. 51. where I have declared, how that it is no strange thing for men of clean contrary judgements and opinions, to join together in oppugning one and the self same truth. The Papists pretend one cause of misliking the book of Common prayers, and they pretend an other cause of misliking the same, do they not now both join in defacing and overthrowing it? That which followeth is but words, those things which they reprove in that book be godly, and most of them not to be bettered. The people that stand in the defence of that book, have all points of Papistry in as great detestation, as they, and peradventure greater, for they so occupy themselves in these external things, which be of small importance, that in the mean time they The Admonitors gratify the Papists. slip over matters of weight and substance, even the principal points where in we differ from them. Wherefore this comparison of yours standeth upon a false ground. For I am fully persuaded, that you and they do the Pope great good service, and that he would not miss you for any thing. For what is his desire, but to have this Church of England (which he hath accursed) utterly defaced, and discredited, to have it by any means overthrown, if not by foreign enemies, yet by domestical dissension. And what fitter and apt instruments could he have had for that purpose than you, who under pretence of zeal, overthrow that which other men have builded, under colour of purity, seek to bring in deformity, and under the cloak of equality and humility, would usurp as great tyranny and lofty Equality made a cloak for ambition. Lordlykenesse over your parishes, as ever the Pope did over the whole Church? For who should be the chief man of the signory but the Pastor, what state and degree of men soever else were in that parish, yea the Prince herself? look their Admonitions, and especially the second, and this book also: and tell me whether it be so or no? Wherefore these glorious words of yours be but mists to blind the eyes of the simple, in like manner, and to the like purpose used of the Anabaptistes against Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, Bucer, and such like sincere professors of the word In the second edition of the answer to the Admonition. of God. Peruse the notes that I have collected, not only out of Bullinger, but out of Zuinglius, and Gastius also, and you shall see them in all points to use these plausible pretences, and to accuse their adversaries after the like manner. Io. Whitgifte. An exhortation, etc. Pag. 6. Sect. ult. Hereby it is manifest, that the Papists and they jointly do seek to shake, nay to overthrow the self same foundations, grounds, and pillars of our Church, although not by the self same instruments, and engines. Wherefore it is time to awake out of sleep, and to draw out the sword of discipline, to provide that laws, which be general, and made for uniformity, aswell of doctrine as ceremonies, be generally & universally observed, that those which according to their consciences and duty execute them, be maintained, and not discouraged. Either boldly defend the Religion & kind of government in this Realm established, or else (if you can) reform and better the same: for it can not be but that this freedom given to men to obey and disobey what they list, to speak what they list, against whom they list, and where they list, to breach what opinions & doctrine they list, must in the end burst out into some strange & dangerous effect. The Lord both grant unto you that be Magistrates, the spirit of government, and to all other that be subjects, the spirit of true obedience. Amen. T. C. Pag. 9 Sect. 1. After you have all to be blacked and grimed with the ink of Anabaptisme, Donatisme, and Note the mildness of the ●an in this section. A charitable surmise. Papisme, those whom you found clear from the lest spot or speck of any of them: You whet the sword, and blow the fire, and you will have the godly Magistrate minister of your choler, and therefore in stead of fear of losing the multitude of your livings, foregoing your pomp and pride of men, and delicacy of fare, unlawful jurisdiction, which you have, and hereafter look for, conscience, religion, and establishment of the common wealth must be pretended. What have you forgotten that which you said in the beginning, that you accused none, but suspected certain? would you have the sword to be drawn upon your suspicions? But now you see, that they, whom you have accused, are nothing like either Anabaptistes, Donatists, or Papists, and yourself most unlike to him that you profess to be, and that you see, that all your slanders are quenched by the innocency (as it were by water) of those men, whom you so haynousely accuse: you are to be put in mind of the law of God, which decreeth, that he which accuseth an other, if he prove it not, shall suffer the punishment, which he should have done, against whom the accusation had been Other similitudes might have beseemed you better. justly proved. The Romans did nourish in Capitolio, cer●yne dogs, and geese, which by their barking and gaggling, should give warning in the night, of thieves that entered in: but if they cried in the day time, when there was no suspicion, and when men came in to worship, than their legs were broken, because they cried when there was no cause. If therefore he have accused justly, then is he worthy to have his diet allowed him of the common charges: But if otherwise, we desire not that his legs may be broken (as there's were) but this we humbly crave, that if this our answer do not sufficiently purge us, that we may be sifted and searched nearer, that if we nourish any such monstrous opinions (as are surmised) we may have the reward of them: if we do not, then at the lest, we may have the good abearing, against such slanderous tongues, seeing that God hath not only committed unto the Magistrate, the safety of our goods and life, but also the preservation of our honest report. Io. Whitgifte. Conuicta impietas dum non habet quod respondeat, convertit se ad convitia. ungodliness being convicted, when she is destitute of a good answer, turneth herself to reproachful words: but your heat of words, and forgetfulness of duty and reverence, I pass over with silence. The multitude of livings which I have, I do enjoy by law, and may retain (I thank God) with a far better conscience, than T. C. did one living for the space of certain years, and would have done still with all his heart, if he might have been winked at, though it were expressly against his oath. My pomp is very small, my pride of men is but according to my calling, it were more for my profit if I had fewer. My delicate fare is very simple: I have witnesses enough of it, peradventure if you were kept to that diet, it would not be with you as it is. If my jurisdiction be unlawful, I am content it be reform, it is according to the statutes of the College where I am (to the which T. C. hath been sworn) and to the laws of the Realm. What I hereafter look for, it is hard for you to judge: But I most humbly thank my heavenly father, that in all this storming of yours, wherein you have blown out against me what you could possibly imagine, you have only uttered your boiling stomach, and not touched me in any thing, whereof I need to be ashamed, which surely you would have done if you could. I whet the sword no otherwise against you, than christian charity and the state of The sword of discipline necessarily called for. the Church requireth. It is neither the sword that taketh away life, nor fire that consumeth the body, which I move unto, but it is the sword of correction and discipline, which may by sundry other means be drawn out, than by shedding of blood. That sword of discipline, I call for still, and say with Zuinglius: If it be permitted that every In his Epistle before his book called Ecclesiastes. man may freely defend his errors, and spread abroad in the Church false doctrine, there will be more contentions, sects and discord among Christian Churches, than ever there was among Infidels. And again, If every man may without controlment preach among the people his own private fancy and opinion, contrary to the determination and authority of the Church, it will shortly come to pass that we shall have more errors than Christians. If I have accused any man unjustly, there is a law, whereunto I am subject: but your words are not of that weight, neither your defence such, that therefore they please or satisfy wise men, because you speak them. If they can say no more for themselves than you have said for them, than they must remain still in the same suspicion. If there be any just cause why you should have the good abearing against any man, if you will come forth, and orderly require it. I am sure you may have it. But o the mildness, the patience, and the quietness of this spirit of yours. To the godly Readers, grace and peace from God, etc. TWo treatises you have here ensuing (beloved in Christ) which you must read without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 jam. 1. 19 20 jam.▪ 2. 1. partiality or blind affection. For otherwise you shall neither see their meaning: nor refrain yourselves from rashly condemning of them without just cause. For certain men there are of great countenance, which will not lightly like of them, because they principally concern their people and unjust dealings▪ whose credit is great, and whose friends are many, we mean the lordely Lords, Archbishops, Bishops, Suffragans, Deans, Doctors, Archdeacon's, Chancellors, and the rest of that proud generation, whose kingdom must down, hold they never so hard: b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stand b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christ's kingdom. And it is the special mischief of our English Church, and the chief cause of backwardness, and of all breach & dissension. For they whose authority is c Mat, 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. etc. forbidden by Christ, will have their stroke without their fellow servants, yea, though ungraciously, cruelly and Popelike they take upon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beat them, and that for their own childish Articles, being for the most part against the manifest truth of God: First, by experience their rigour hath too plainly appeared ever since their wicked reign, and specially for the space of these five or six years last passed together. Of the enormities, which with such rigour they maintain, these treatises do in part make mention, justly craving redrèsse thereof. But the matters do require a larger discourse. Only the authors of these, thought it their parts to admonish you at this time, of those inconveniences which men seem not to think upon, and which without reformation, can not but increase further dissension: the one part being, proud, pontifical, and tyrannous: and the word of God for the other part express and manifest, as if it pleased the state to examine the matters, it would be evident. And would to God, that free conference in these matters might be had. For howsoever learned and many they seem to be, they should & may in this realm found enough, to match them and shame them too, if they hold on as they have begun. And out of this realm they have all the best reform Churches throughout Christendom against them. But in a few words to say what we mean. Either must we have a right e Math. 9 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministery of God, and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. government of his Church, according to the Scriptures set up (both which we lack) or else there can be no right religion, nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. etc. Ma. 21. 23. etc. 1. Cor. 11. 30 God's plagues be from us any while differred. And therefore though they link in together, and sclaunderously charge poor men (whom they have made poor) with grievous faults, calling them Puritans, worse than the Donatists', exasperating & setting on such as be inauthoritie against them, having hitherto miserably handled them with razors viling▪ deprivations, imprisonments, banishments, & such like extremities, yet is these poor men's cause never the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse: nor these challengers the better: nor God his i isaiah. 59 1. hand the further of to link in with his against them: nor you (christian brethren) must never the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. jam 4. 11. 12 condemn them. But thankfully take this taste which God by these treatises offereth you, and weigh them by the word of God, and do your endeu ur, every man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling, to promote his cause. And let us all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont, earnestly commend it to God his blessing, and namely that it will please him by his spirit to lighten the heart of our most gracious Sovereign, and the rest in authority, to the benefit of his small flock, and the overthrow of their proud enemies, that godliness may by them proceed in peace, and God his glory through jesus Christ, be thoroughly advanced. Which we call God to witness, is our only labour and suit. And so presently we leave you: heartily beseeching God to grant it. Amen. ¶ An answer to the Preface of the Admonition. THese two treatises contained in this Admonition, as they be void of sound learning, so are they full of blind affection, and stuffed with uncharitable and unchristian Arrogancy and unchristian speeches of the Libelers. terms and phrases. Wherefore it is to be feared, that they proceed not of love, but of hatred, not of zeal, but of malice, not of humility, but of arrogancy, not of minds desirous to reform, but of stomachs seeking to deform and confound that which is in due form and order by lawful authority established. For what charitable, zealous, and humble spirit, would so spitefully and slanderously speak of their brethren, whose doctrine is pure, whose zeal is fervent, whose suffering for the Gospel hath been in time of trial comparable with any man's that now liveth: who have also painfully taught the word of God in this Realm, and do at this day, and by whose ministery the Gospel hath taken root, and is come to that increase that now (God be thanked) appeareth. Surely these opprobrious terms, Proud generation, tyrannous Lordships, ungracious, cruel, Popelike, wicked reign, proud enemies. etc. applied to brethren, proceed not from the humble and mild spirit of God, but from the proud and arrogant spirit of Satan. Therefore by this unseemly Preface, it may appear from what spirit the rest of this Admonition springeth. Touching the cruelty and rigour Pretended persecution. these men complain of, I shall need to speak little, being manifest to all that be not with sinister affection blinded, that lack of severity is the principal cause of their licentious liberty. But who seethe not their hypocrisy, which would make the world believe that they are persecuted, when they be with too much lenity punished for their untolerable contempt of good laws, and other disordered dealings? Nay such is their perverseness, or rather arrogancy, that if they be debarred, but from the lest part of their will and desire, by and by they cry out of cruelty and persecution, it is to be doubted what these men will do when persecution cometh in deed, which now make so much of a little, or rather of nothing. As for this great brag, Stout brags. For how soever learned and many they seem to be, they should and may in this Realm find own to match them, and shame them too, if they hold on as they have begun, Satis arroganter dictum est, and verifieth that to be true, that is commonly spoken of these kind of men, that is, that they contemn all other in comparison of themselves: that they think themselves only zealous, only learned. etc. But it is possible that they may be matched, and I know no man of learning, afraid to encounter with them, either by word or writing. Touching the ministery and government of the Church, what faults there is to be therein found we shall understand, when we come to their reasons. God grant us humble and meek spirits, that godly unity may be maintained in the Church. One thing I must desire thee to note (gentle Reader) (wherein the folly of these men marvelously appeareth) how they have painted the margin of their book with quoting of Scriptures, as though all were scripture they writ, when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all this Preface alleged to any purpose, and yet how many is there quoted? To prove that we must read these two treatises without partiality or blind affection, here is noted in the margin. 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition. verse. 21. jam. 1. jam. 2. The place to the Thessalonians is this: Try all things, and keep that which is good. The place of of the first of james is this: Wherefore my dear brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath. And the second place of james is this: My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord jesus Christ in respect of people. And to what purpose are these places alleged? what prove they? or what need is there to allege them? These Apostles in these places speak not of railing Libels, but of Scriptures wrested. hearing the word of God, and judging of matters of faith, according to the truth, and not to the people. To prove that tyrannous lordship can not stand with Christ's kingdom, they allege the. 15, of Matth. and Luke. 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse. 23. is this: But he answered her not a word than came to him his Disciples, and besought him, saying: send her away for she crieth after us. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus: Then he said unto them, you are they which justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men, is abomination in the sight of God. I would gladly know how their assertion, and these two texts hung together. I allow not tyrannous lordship to stand with Chrystes kingdom: But it may well enough for any thing in these two places to the contrary. Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men, but hated. ¶ The Reply unto the answer of the Preface. T. C. Pag. 9 Sect. 2. IT may be said unto you, that which Aristotle said of a certain Philosopher, that he known not his own voice: For if that you had remembered that which you do so often promise', that you will not answer words, but matter, the Printer should not have gained so much, men should not have bestowed so much money of a thing not of so great value, nor that (which is more) the world should not be burdened with unprofitable writings. For how often runninges out have you, to draw the authors of the Admonition into hatred, by inveyghing bitterly against their unlearnedness, maliciousness. etc. (as it pleaseth you to term it) so that if there were any excess of speech in them, you have paid it again with measure pressed down, and running over. How often charge you them with pride and arrogancy, men that confess once or twice of themselves their want of skill, and which profess nothing of themselves, but only a bore and naked knowledge of the truth, which may be done with modesty, even of them which have no learning. And yet those that know them, know that they are neither void of the knowledge of the tongues, nor of the liberal Arts, albeit they do not make so many words of Pro. 11. u. 9 it, as you. Solomon saith, that he that is despised, and hath but one servant, is better than he which magnifieth and setteth out himself, and yet wanteth bread: whereby he means, that the man that hath but a little, and carrieth his countenance accordingly, is much more to be esteeined, than he which beareth a great port, and hath not to support it. These brethren have not undertaken the knowledge of Logic, Philosophy, and other school learning, whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute: you in so often reproaching them, with the ignorance of them, would make us believe, that you are so notable a Logician, and Philosopher, as if Logic and Philosophy had been born with you, and should dye with you: when as it may appear partly by that which hath been spoken, and partly by those things, that will fall out hereafter, that you are better acquainted with the names of Logic and Philosophy, than with any sound, or substantial knowledge of them. But let that be the Universities judgement, where you have been brought up, and are best known. To return to your unprofitable excursions, how often times in your book do you pull at the Magistrate's sword, and what sword you would have, I leave to the consideration of all men, seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment: whereupon also doth eusue the expense of that which they have. What matter is in all these, that bringeth any help to the decision of these causes, that are in question between us? how many leaves have you wasted in confuting of the quotations, which (you say) are * Though they be vain, yet were they alleged of them for sound proofs, and therefore necessarily con ted. vain, foolish, unlearned, and to no purpose of that for which they are alleged? And if they be so, where learned you to spend so much time about them: did you never learn that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to confute (a) It is no tri ing thing to abuse the scripture. tri ing things seriously, is a point of those, which have no judgement to know what is meet for the time and place, and other such circumstances? If I (b) You would if you could, seeing they are the foundation and grounds of that ooke. should of the other side now go about too maintain every place, too be not unfitly quoted, unto that end, wherefore it is alleged, and show how unjust your reprehensions are, and how small cause you have to lead th' in oftentimes, so gloriously in triumph (as you do) which I assure you I could do in the most places. As what could be more tly alleged, to induce to read the book, than that they should try all things? what more fitly to hold men from rash condeinning of things, than that they should be slow speak? what more fitly to move that they should not illike of the goodness of the cause, for the simplicity or base degree of them that defend it, than that we should not have the saith of our Lord jesus Christ in respect of people? And what more umustly done than that you should whip them for the Printers fault, in putting one place for another? If, I say, I should thus go about to make good every place, how evil should I deserve either of learning, or of the truth itself, in blotting of much paper, whereby no profit would come to the Reader? And if the days of a man were as many as the days of an oak, I would neither willingly trouble, nor be troubled, with such strife of words. Seeing therefore, God hath shut us in so narrow terms, me think men should have conscience of pestering the world, with such (c) What ment you then to pester the world with your unprofitable treatises. Pag. 10. Sect. 1 Therefore all these, and whatsoever else wandering words, I shall meet with in this book, I ineane (by God's grace) as dead things and nothing worth, to bury with silence, and will answer to these things, which couch the matters that lie in controversy between us. And as for the unlearnedness, blind zeal, malice, intolerable pride, contempt of all good orders, and twenty such more things, wherewith M. Doctor charges us, if our life and conversation doth not confute them sufficiently, our words and profesiion of ourselves will not do it. And therefore we will first stay ourselves, with the testimony of our own consciences, and then in the equity of the judgement of all those, which shall indifferently consider these things that we are charged with. And as for the sword that is so hotly and hastily called for, we hope it be in their hands, which will use it better than they are by you directed. Io. Whitgifte. I think those that shall read my book, with indifferent judgement, will say that I have performed my promise: and am as spare in words without matter, as conveniently I could be, and much more sparing than you are, either in this place where you have nothing but wor es, or in the rest of your book. The vaive of my book, and the unprofitableness of it, I refer to the judgement of others. I have done my duty in it (as I am persuaded) and satisfied my conscience. I do inveigh against the authors of the Admonition in no otherwise and sort, than modes ie, and the cause itself requireth: If I have, show the particulars, note the places. I speak not of their knowledge and learning, otherwise than it is uttered in their book. I neither despise them in such sort, nor magnify myself: I leave that to you and yours, and thereof I require the testimony of this your own book. I boast not of any profound skill in School learning, (I thank God for that which I have) I refuse not the Universities judgement of me, from the time of my first being Sophister unto this day. I think it hath been, and is better persuaded of me than I am worthy, which appeareth in that it hath laid upon me (as much as upon any one man) from time to time, from my first peeping out, unto this day, all the public exercises in all sciences that I have professed, without my seeking, nay against my will: and I trust that I neither have in doing of them disgraced her, nor shamed myself. But surely I am ashamed thus to burst out to the defence of myself, if I were not thereunto compelled by your uncivil and opprobrious speeches. My excursions be necessary. I pu no oh tener, nor in any other manner, nor at any other sword of the Magistrate, than the state of the Church, my office and vocation, and charity itself requireth: neither do I mean the authors of the Admonition only, but their adherentes also. Surely I believe that by that means these controvers es would shortly be ended, and the Church kept in great quietness and good order. The confutation of the quotations was most necessary, and it is that, that doth pinch The bayne quotations were necessarily confuted. you most sharply. True it is, that they be vain, unlearned, and to no purpose, and yet used as grounds of that Admonition, and the doctrine therein contained. Wherefore the opening of the va itie and unaptness of them, is the overthrow of that book: which the common sort thought to be all Scripture, and nothing else but Scripture, and therefore the doctrine therein contained to be most true, when as in deed the Scriptures be there as manifestly wrested, and unfitly used as they be of the Papis es and Anabaptistes. And therefore though they were vainly alleged of them, yet were they necessarily confuted by me. M. Caluine in his book against the Anabaptistes, saith, That they win credit with those that be zealous, because Calvin duers. they pretend the word of God, and have it always in their mouth. And therefore Anabap. though their allegations be frivolous, yet doth he spend much labour in detecting them: even so say I, you pretend the word of God in all things, and thereby you do deceive the godly and zealous people: wherefore it is expedient, that your grounds be laid open, to the intent it may be known how crookedly and evil favouredly you build upon them. If you could maintain every place, or many of the places, I dare say you would, but surely I commend your Khetorike. Those places that you would seem to give some countenance unto, bewray your lack of ability to defend either them, or the rest. For you answer not one word to the reasons, for the which I disallow them, nor to the true sense and meaning which I give of them. Truly if you should thus go about to make them good, in so doing you should do your cause no great good. But here you have wholly omitted, the. 15. of matthew, and the. 16. of Luke. The one whereof though it be corrected, yet it is in a manner as far from the purpose as it was before, as it may appear ear in the Additions and alterations, etc. at the end of the first book. Your words of pleasure which follow, because they be but words, I wholly omit them, as I will also do in many other places, where I shall find nothing else, lest I make this Book longer than is convenient. ¶ Whether Christ forbiddeth rule and superiority unto the Ministers. Tractat. 1. The true interpretation of the twentieth of Matthew. etc, Reges gentium. etc. Chap. 1. The first Division. Answereto the Admonition. Pag. 13. Sect. 3 TO prove that they whose authority is forbidden by Christ, will Scripture ested. have their stroke without their fellow servants. etc. is quoted, The true exposition of the 20. of Math. etc. Math. 20. Math. 23. Mark. 10. Luke. 22. In the. 20. Math. it is thus written: Yeknowe that the Lords of the Gentiles have domination over them. etc. In the. 23. of Matthew, Be you not called Rabbi, for one is your doctor or teacher, to wit, Christ. The places in Mark and Luke be all one with that in the 20. of Matthew. The conclusion that is gathered of these places is very dark and generali: they should have declared who they be that have this authority forbidden, and what the authority is. Touching these places aileaged in the. 20. of Matthew. 10. of Mark. 22. of Luke, Musculus and divers other learned men think, that they extend not only to the Apostles, and men of the Clergy, as we call them, but to all Christians, of what state so ever they be. And it is the common opivion of all writers, that these words of Christ do not condemn superiority, Lordship, or any such like authority, but the ambitious desire of the same, and the tyrannical usage thereof. T. C. Page. 10. Sect. 2. &. 3. To come therefore unto the matter out of the places of the. 20. of matthew, and the. 22. of Luke, where our Saviour Christ, upon occasion of the inordinate request of the sons of zebedee, putteth a difference between * This is is a note of your own devising. the civil and ecclesiastical function, he placeth the distinction of them in two points, whereof the one is, in their office, the other is in their names and titles. The distinction of the office, he noteth, in these words, the kings of the Gentiles have dominion over them, and the Prince's exercise authority over them, but it shall not be so with you. Whereupon the argument may be thus gathered, that wherein the Civil magistrate is severed from the Ecclesiastical officer, doth not agreed to one minister over an other. But the (a) Petitio principij. civil magistrate is severed from the Ecclesiastical officer by bearing (b) aequivoeatio. dominion. Therefore bearing dominion doth not agrec to one minister over an other. Page. two Sect. 1. &. 2. Touching their names and titles, he putteth a difference in these words: And they are called Gracious Lords, but it shall not be so with you. And so the argument may be framed as before, that forasmuch as they are severed in titles, and that to the Civil minister doth agreed the title of gracious Lords, therefore to the Ecclesiastical minister the same doth not agreed. For as it is fit, that they whose offices carry an outward majesty and pomp, should have names agreeable to their magnificence, so is it meet, that those that God hath removed from that pomp and outward show, should likewise be removed from such swelling and lofty titles, as do not agreed with the simplicity of the ministery which they exercise. And whereas it might seem somewhat unjust, that he that hath the greater gifts, should not be preferred to those which have less, our saviour Christ showeth that the matter is far otherwise. For by how much every man doth excel his fellow in the gifts of the holy Ghost, by so much more he aught to employ himself to the benefit of others: so that in a manner he should become (as it were) their servant to do them good, which although it be in part, common to the civil magistrate, with the minister of the word, yet he doth never let down himself so low, nor giveth his service either to the Church or common wealth, but that he doth and aught in that service to retain that dignity and countenance, with the marks and notes thereof, which his Princely estate doth require. In the end he propoundeth himself for example, in whom he setteth before their eyes a perfect pattern of the ministe . For seeing he being Lord, took upon him to be a servant, and being Emperor and king of heaven and earth, was content to want all the glory & show of the world (his ministery so requiring) it should be great shame for them which were his disciples, choose out for the ministery, not to content themselves, but to aspire unto such offices and dignities, as they dreamt of. Io. Whitgifte. You say that Christ in that place putteth a difference, between the Civil and Ecclesiastical functions, and that in two points, in their office, and in their names and titles: the distinction of the office (you say) he noteth in these words. The Kings of the Gentiles. etc. of their names and titles these: And they are called gracious Lords, etc. Whereupon you conclude, as though all were cock sure. But I pray you tell me, whereupon do you gather that Christ maketh any such distinction here, either of offices, or titles? In deed he would have a difference both betwixt the authority of his Disciples and other Christians, and the dominion of Heathenish Princes: and also betwixt their affections in desiring the same: and therefore doth he expressly say, The kings of the Gentiles. etc. If he had meant any such distinction of offices or titles, as you would make us believe, he would have said, The Kings and Princes of the jews, etc. or rather Kings and Princes, without any Government not forbidden of Christ, but the kind of government. further addition: but seeing that he saith the Kings and Princes of the Gentiles, it is manifest, that he forbiddeth not only to his Disciples, but to all Christians such tyrannical kind of government as the Gentiles used, and that ambitious desire and affection of the same which ruled in them. For christ useth to call back those that be his from errors and corrupt affections, by the example of the Gentiles, as he doth in the. 6. of Matthew from too much carefulness for meat & drink, & such like. Nam omnia ista gentes exquirunt, For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: where he doth not forbid them to seek for meat, drink, and clothing, but to seek for it too carefully, and with mistrust of God's providence, as the Gentiles did. In like manner here he forbiddeth not government, either in the civil or Ecclesiastical state: but he forbiddeth such government as the Gentiles used, and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same. Touchying your argument, I say it hath two faults. first, it is a fallation, Two faults in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij, for you take it as granted, that the Civil Magistrate is severed from the Ecclesiastical officer, by bearing dominion, which I will not simply grant unto you, for that is partly our question. Secondly, your minor is ambiguous, The civil Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical, by bearing dominion. and therefore in that respect, your argument may be also placed in the fallation of equivocation, for the word Dominion, may have divers significations: It may signify such dominion as Christ speaketh of in this place, that is, rule with oppression. It may also signify the absolute authority of a Prince, such as is mentioned. 1. Samuel. 8. Thirdly, it may signify any peculiar office of superiority and government under the Prince, at the appointment of the Prince, as the divers significations of the word Dominion. authority of a judge, justice. Maior. etc. last of all, it may signify any jurisdiction or kind of government. If you take it in either of the two first significations, your minor is true: if in either of the two latter significations, it is false. For we grant, that there is great difference betwixt the dominion of Kings and Princes, and betwixt the Jurisdiction and authority of Bishops. King's have power over life and goods. etc. so have not Bishops. King's have authoritiie in all causes, and over all people withintheir dominions, without any limitation: if Bishops have any such dominion, especially in Civil causes, it is not in the respects they be Bishops, but it is from the Prince, and limited unto them. Touching their names and titles (you say) he putteth a difference in these words, and they are called gracious Lords, but it shall not be so with you. etc. The words of the twentieth of matthew be these: And they that are great, exercise authority over them. In the. 10. of Mark, the same words be used. In the. 22. of Luke, the Greek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, benefici vocantur, they are called bountiful, or beneficial, which I see not how you can by any means apply to your purpose: For matthew and Mark refer this clause, It shall not be so among you, not to any name, but to the ambition and tyrannical kind of dominion, which our saviour Christ there reproveth, as it is most manifest. And therefore this place of Luke, must also be expounded by them. Neither is this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, of any such imperiousness, that christ should forbid Calvinus. his Disciples the name. M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpreting these words of Saint Luke sayeth thus: As touching the words: where matthew hath, that kings exercise authority over them, in Luke we read, that they are called bountiful, in the same sense: as though he should say, Kings have plenty of all things, and are very rich, so that they may be bountiful and liberal: And a little after he sayeth, that they do appetere laudem munificentiae, desire the commendation of bountifulness. I know that certain of the Kings of egypt were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, munifici & benefactores, bountiful and benefactors: and that they were delighted to be so called. I know also that among the Hebrues their Princes were called Munifici & liberales per antonomasian: But what then? if either they vaynegloriously desired that name, or were so called, when they deserved rather the names of Tyrants and oppressoures, doth it therefore follow, that they be unlawful names for such as may deserve them? The most that can be gathered of this place (for any thing that I perceive) is, that the Kings of the Gentiles had vain and flattering titles given them, being nothing less in deed than that which their names did signify: and so may it be a good admonition for men How the words, Vos autem non sic, may be referred to names. to learn to answer to their names and titles, and to do in deed that which by snche names and titles is signified. Now than if you will have Vos autem non sic, but it shall not be so with you, to be a prohibition to all Christians, and especially to Bishops, that they shall not ambitiously seek dominion as the Gentiles did: unjustly and tyrannously use their authority, as they also did: nor have names and titles to the which they do not accordingly answer, no more than the Gentiles did, than I agree with you. But if you will have Vos autem non sic, to restrain them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, liberal benefactors. etc. as your interpretation agreeth not with the words of the other two Evangelists, so doth it not with any learned interpreter that I have read. To your argument concerning names and titles, I answer as I did to the former. divers kinds of names. Some names & titles are proper to the civil Magistrate only, as the names of Emperor, King, Prince, Duke, earl. etc. These names are not given to any of the Clergy in this Church to my knowledge: some names are common to the Civil Magistrate, Names common to civil and Ecclesiastical people. with Ecclesiastical people, as certain names of reverence, of superiority, & of office. The name of Gracious Lord, is a name of superiority, and of reverence, according to the manner of the country where it is used, and therefore may well agree, either to the civil or Ecclesiastical people: and in many places, divers are called by this name Lord, (which is in Latin Dominus,) for reverence and civility; which have very small dominion. As for the name of archbishop or Metropolitan, that is not proper to any civil Magistrate, and therefore without the compass of your argument. Thus than you see, that some titles are proper to the civil Magistrate, some to the Ecclesiastical, and some common to both, whereby your mayor is utterly overthrown. As for this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, upon the which you seem to growde your argument, I see not why it may not be common to all men, that show themselves liberal and beneficial. There is no man denieth but that there is, and must be great difference betwixt the pomp and outward show of a Prince, and the state of an Ecclesiastical person, both in titles and other majesty: and I think that he is very blind, that seeth it not so to be in this Church of England: yet may the Ecclesiastical person show forth the countenance of his degree, whereunto he is called of God, by his Prince, and by the laws of that realm wherein he is a subject. It is true, that an Ecclesiastical Minister doth much differ from a civil Magistrate Ministers may execute some kind of civil jurisdiction. touching his ministery and spiritual calling, yet is he not so distinct, that he may exercise no such civil office wherein he may do good, and which is an help to his Ecclesiastical function. As the civil Magistrate may in some things exercise jurisdiction Ecclesiastical, and meddle in matters of the Church, so may the Ecclesiastical person in some causes use civil jurisdiction, and deal in matters of the common wealth, if it shall be thought expedient or necessary by the chief Magistrates. Caluine. M. Caluine in his Commentaries upon this text, though in some points he agree A temporal lord may be a preacher. with you, yet hath he these words. Add hereunto, that Christ did not so much respect the people of men, as the state of his Church, for it may so be, that he which is Lord of a village or city, do also (necessity constraining) exercise the office of teaching. Whereby it is plain, that a temporal Lord (if necessity require) may together with his Lordship become a preacher of the Gospel. M. Brentius in his. 48. Homily Brentius. What kind of external do minion is denied to ministers. upon Luke, speaking of this matter sayeth, that Bishops which glory themselves to be the successors of the Apostles, may not under the pretence of their Ecclesiastical office usurp external dominion over kings and Princes, to make kings whom they list, and to displace whom they list. And by and by he obietteth and answereth as followeth, Therefore thou wilt say, it is not lawful for a minister of the Church (whether thou callest him a Bishop or a preacher) to have temporal dominion, and to govern What kind of temporal dominion a Minister may exercise. the people committed unto him by civil policy? I answer that it is not lawful for a Minister of the Church to usurp such rule and dominion, under the pretence of the Gospel, and of his Ecclesiastical ministery: Peter must not therefore have dominion over Antioch or Rome, because he is an Apostle. etc. But if temporal dominion or possession happen to the minister of the Gospel, either by inheritance, or ordinary election, or any other Civil or lawful contract. etc. then may he enjoy these external things. etc. And in his. 52. Homily, upon these words of Christ now Idem. in question, he writeth thus: What shall we then say to these things? because christ sayeth: The kings of the Nations bear rule over them, and are called bountiful, . but it must not be so among you, shall it not be lawful for a Christian man to bear rule in a temporal kingdom, and acknowledge the titles of honour, as of bountifulness and clemency, which are given unto Princes? Is it not lawful also for a Bishop, to have temporal dominion? Christ in this place doth not think it unlawful for Christians, to be Magistrates, neither doth he forbid Bishops to have external dominion. But he showeth a difference between the kingdom of this world, and his kingdom. He teacheth, that the kingdom of this world and his kingdom are so distinct, that he which is a minister of his kingdom, must not in that respect usurp the kingdom of this world: for the Apostles thought, that because they were Apostles, therefore they should possess the kingdoms of the world. And therefore Christ in this place condemneth their false opinion. etc. Christ doth not condemn Magistracy among Christians. etc. Not, he doth not forbid Bishops to have external dominion, if they come unto it by inheritance, or by lawful election. It is a very hard matter both to preach the Gospel, and to exercise temporal dominion, and yet it is not of itself unlawful together with the ministery, to keep and use temporal dominion, if it come ordinarily and lawfully. For Christ came not to trouble civil laws, and the ordinary governments of the kingdoms of this world, but rather that these being preserved, his Gospel might be preached quietly. Haec Brentius. But of civil authority in Ecclesiastical people, occasion will be given to speak more at large hereafter. That which Christ said, Quicunque maior erit inter vos. etc. Whosoever will be great Quicunque maior erit inter vos. etc. expounded. among you, let him be your minister: though it may especially appertain to the Apostles, yet it is also a general rule for all Christians, and so is the example of him also, which he propoundeth unto them. And so doth Musculus very truly interpret this place, to whom M. Bucer agreeth, whose words be these: The Anabaptistes Buce in. 20. think here that they are able to prove, that it pertaineth not to a Christian to bear rule, Mitth. and that no man can be together a Magistrate, and a Christian, because Christ said They which ear rule godl y, serve. here to his Disciples, Vos autem non sic, not considering that those, which godlylle and according to the will of the Lord bear rule, Nihil minus quàm dominari, imò maximè servire, & tantò pluribus, quantò pluribus praefuerint, do nothing less than bear rule in deed, yea verily do most of all serve, and even unto so many do they serve, over how many so ever they bear rule: surely Christ would have his Apostles to have their authority in Churches, and they themselves did greatly require to be obeyed: but because in that they sought nothing unto themselves, but only salvation and the glory of God in those whom they ruled, they did govern the Churches: they had every where the superiority: they ruled such as believed: they would have the godly to be obedient unto them: interim nihilominùs seruierunt omnibus, dominati sunt nemini, And yet in the mean time served all, and had dominion over none: So also in the Civil government, who was ever in greater dignity than Moses, or more to be feared for his authority and power? and yet who ever served more, more diligently, and more humbly, which never sought any thing for himself, or took any thing unto himself. etc. but day and night to the uttermost of his power, sought for the safety of the people. etc. If any now so bear office, and rule the works of the hands of the Lord, and govern the sheep of his pasture according to his will, what doth he else but serve all those whom he governeth? And The place of Math. 20. general. therefore Christ doth not here dehort from bearing rule, and being a Magistrate, but from seeking rule and dominion: for I had rather take this saying of the Lord in this generality, than to restrain it to the Apostles only: Eò quòd omnino pius Magistratus seruiat non dominetur, habeatque per se omnia secundum praesentem domini cohortationem: Because a godly Magistrate doth altogether serve, and not bear rule, and hath by himself all things agreeable to this present exhortation of the Lord Thus you see Bucers' judgement upon these words of Christ. Chap. I second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 14. lin. 11. And it is the common opinion of all writers, that these words of Christ do not condemn superiority, Lordship, or any such like authority, but the ambitious desire of the same, and the tyrannical usage thereof. T. C. Pag. 11. Sect. 3 &. 4. Against this is said, that the places do nothing else but condemn ambitious desire, and tyrannical usage of authority, and doth not bar the ministers of these things. The Bishop of Salis bury so allegeth this place in his defence of the Apology against M. H ding. pag. 65 Then belike all those godly and learned men, which have used these places to prove that the Pope, which professeth himself to be an Ecclesiastical person, aught not to have the civil sword, nor to usurp unto himself such glorious pomp, have abused them. For you teach him, how he should answer, that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyranny, and in deed this is the answer of all the Papists to that objection. Io. Whitgifte. Those godly and learned men which have used these places against the Pope, These places are rightly used against the Pope, notwithstanding this interpretation. have rightly used them, and if it had pleased you, you might have understood, that in the very next leaf following I say: that these places may be aptly alleged against the pride, tyranny & ambition of the Bishop of Rome, which seeketh tyrannically to rule, and not to profit, but not against the lawful authority in any state of men. They therefore allege it truly, The Pope's dominion such as Christ here forbiddeth. and yet you untruly expound it, for the Pope's dominion is such, as is in this place forbidden, that is usurped and tyrannical, because he hath not only entered into the spiritual kingdom of Christ, and sought to reign in men's consciences, but also pulleth from Princes the power of earthly dominion, saying that he hath that immediately from God, and the Emperors and Princes immediately from him. And so do the learned expound this place, and it is their answer to the objection of the Anabaptistes. I fully agree with my L. of Salisbury his allegation of this place, for Bishops may not be kings, nor have any such civil dominion, as the Pope claimeth and usurpeth. Chap. I Division. 3. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 14. Sect. 1 & Pag. 15. Sect. 1 &. 2. Musculus expounding these places saith in this sort: Who so Musculus. ever will be great among you. etc. He says not, no man aught to be chief among you, which he should have said, if it had not been lawful in the kingdom of God for some to be great and chief, or if it had been necessary, that all should have been in all things equal: the Celestial spirits are not equal: the Stars be not equal: the Apostles themselves were not equal: Peter is found in many places to have been chief among the rest, which we do not deny. Therefore this is not Christ's meaning to have none great or chief among Christians, seeing the very necessity of our state requireth that some be superiors and betters, so far is it from being repugnant to charity. In a common weal it is necessary that some should excel other, so is it in a well ordered family: In like manner there must be in the Church governors, presidents, rulers, of whom Paul maketh mention, Ro. 12. 1. Co. 12. Heb. 13 as there is also in the body some principal members, some inferior. etc. Therefore Christ doth not require that in his kingdom all should be equal, but this he doth require, that none should desire to be great, or to be thought and counted chief. Hitherto Musculus. Which interpretation must needs be true, else we may say that Christ in this place rejecteth and disalloweth the Princes and Magistrates of the Gentiles, and also forbiddeth the same among Christians: which is false and anabaptistical. Likewise the same Musculus says, that Christ teacheth in this place, what he aught to be indeed that desireth to bear rule over other, to wit, that he aught to be a servant to other, that is (as he doth interpret it) to profit other, and to serve for the commodity of other: for though the name of a prince and of a Lord be a name of honour and dignity, yet is it the office of a Prince and Lord to serve those which be under them, in governing of them carefully, and in providing for their wealth and peace. T. C. Page. 11. Sect. 5. &. 6. But Musculus a learned man is of that judgement. * This is a simple answer to oppose one 〈◊〉 authority against another. And master Caluine as learned as he, and divers other are of that judgement that I have alleged: this is no great proof on your side, nor reproof of ours: let us therefore see the reasons wherewith this exposition is warranted. (a) A false collection upon master Musculus his words. Musculus reason is this, that if he should have inent that the Apostles should have been equal and none greater than an other, then there should be equality of all, and none should have authority over other. And so there should be no degrees of the Prince and subject in the common wealth, of master and servant in a family, of people and minister in the Church. But it is no good reason to say there is, nor aught to be, any inequality amongst the apostles, therefore there is none, nor aught to be none at all. Or to say there is no inequality amongst the pastors, therefore there is no inequality between the pastors and the people. For as the common wealths, and families, and Churches are preserved by inequality, and in that some are higher, and some are lower, some rule, and some obey: so are the same likewise preserved by equality of certain amongst themselves, as albeit the (b) Ministers may have dominion over the people, but one of them must not be above another. 1. they may rule but not be ruled. Consuls in Rome were above other officers, and the people, yet were they equal between themselves. (c) Examples against himself And although it be the preservation of the family, that the master should be above the servant, and the father above the son, yet it tendeth also to the quiet of the house, that the servants amongst themselves, and the brethren amongst themselves, should be equal. And so we grant, that for the preservation of the Church, it is necessary that there be some should bear rule, and other should be under their rule, but I deny, that thereof followeth that one minister should bear rule over another. Whereas master Musculus says that Peter was found in many places chief among the rest, if he mean as Eusebius cap.. 14. lib. 2. doth, which says that he was (d) Eusebius not truly translated. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. or his virtues and gifts he had, one that spoke before the rest, and in the name of the rest, (which he seemeth to do in that he doth not absolutely give any chiefly unto him, but only in certain places) I agreed with him, and do not deny, but such chiefly may be amongst the ministers, as shall appear more at large hereafter. This interpretation of master Musculus (master Doctor says) must needs be true, or else Christ should reject Princes and Magistrates, amongst both Christians and other. I have showed that it doth not follow because he forbiddeth that rule unto the ministers, therefore he forbiddeth it simply and altogether, no more than the law which forbiddeth that any stranger should be king of the realm, forbiddeth therefore that there should be no king of the realm. Whereas you say master Musculus teacheth how he aught to rule which ruleth, and what he aught to be, I have told you before, other think otherwise, and therefore you having set down his judgement before, needed not to have repeated it here again. Io. Whitgifte. Not only master Musculus doth so expound this place, but also Bucer and sundry others, both old and new writers: as Chrisostome, Theophilact etc I know that M. Caluine doth otherwise think of it, but that is no sufficient answer to Musculus his reasons. The first reason of Musculus you collect on this sort: If Christ should have meant, that the Apostles should have been equal. etc. then there should be equality of all: wherein you deal with Musculus, as you deal with me: that is, you make his arguments against his express words: for where doth Musculus reason in that manner? Musculus his reasons upon the. 20. of Math. The first reason of Musculus is this. If Christ had meant that it should not be lawful in the kingdom of God for some to be great and chief, then would he have said, no man aught to be great among you, but he said not so, for his words be, whosoever will be great among you. etc. therefore. etc. And this is a better reason than you can well answer. If you could have done it, you would not have shifted it off with a vain confutation, not of Musculus, but of your own devised argument. Musculus his second reason is this. There is superiority in the kingdom of God, and one above another, as there is in the celestial spirits, in the stars, and in other states. For Peter is found in many places to have been chief among the rest, and therefore this is not the meaning of Christ, that none should be great or chief among Christians. His third reason may be thus gathered. The very necessity of our state requireth that some should be superiors and betters, as well in the Church, as in the common wealth etc. therefore it is not Christ's meaning to have no superiors. etc. In like manner doth he reason out of the. 12. of the Rom. 1. Cor. 12. Heb. 13. and of the parts and members of man's body: And in the end thus he concludeth: Therefore Christ doth not require that in his kingdom all should be equal, but this he doth require, that none should desire to be great. etc. Musculus his reasons not answered but shifted off by. T. C. To these reasons you answer not one word, but shifted them off by telling us, that as common weals and families and Churches are preserved by inequality. etc. and as albeit the consuls of Room. etc. which be to no purpose, and make directly against you. For not only in a family the master is above the servant, but one servant also above another, Thexamples of. T. C. against himself Math. 24. whereunto Christ himself alludeth Mat. 24. when he says, who is a faithful servant whom his master hath made ruler over his household. etc. In like manner not only the father is above the son, but also in the same family one brother is above another: and even in the scripture Gen. 49. and other places, it may be seen that pre-eminence of dignity hath been always (for the most part) given to the elder: wherefore Goe 49. vers. 3. these similitudes help you not. And whereas you seem to grant, that the pastor must be superior to the people, and yet one Pastor not to be above another, the words of Christ rather import the contrary: for the dominion that is here forbidden, is not of one minister over another, but over the people of God, as the similitude of them that sit at the table, and of them that serve doth evidently declare: for who are they that sit at the table to be served, but the people (which is the Church) in respect of whom the ministers are servants? Therefore this place is very unfitly alleged, to prove that there should be no superiority between ministers: for such superiority in government as by your own confession may be in ministers over the people, may also be in one minister over another, for any thing that this place hath to the contrary. But whether one minister aught to be above another or not, shall be discussed in his Tract. 8. proper place. What superiority soever M. Musculus giveth unto Peter over the rest, that example is aptly applied to the justifying of his exposition upon this place, that we have now in hand. But I must tell you that you do not truly translate the words of Eusebius concerning Peter. For this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth not only to speak before the rest, and in the name of the rest (as you translate it) but it signifieth also principem in omni re gerenda: a chief ruler or guide, in every matter or business. Wherefore I say still that this interpretation of M. Musculus must needs be true, and that it may as well be alleged to take away superiority from Christian Princes, as it may from ecclesiastical ministers. This of M. Musculus that he says, that Christ here teacheth, what he aught to be indeed, that beareth rule over other, neither have I before rehearsed, nor you hitherto answered. Chapter. I the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition Page. 15. Sect. 3 &. 4. Moreover the Greek words that Christ useth in all these places, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signify to rule with oppression, & to rule as a man list. Furthermore Christ doth not say, that no man shall be great among them, or bear rule, but he says. Quicunque volverit inter vos magnus fieri. etc. He that desireth to be great among you. etc. T C. Pa. 12. lin. 8. But the greek words (you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signify to rule with oppression, And why may not I say that this preposition (1) Because the you should say contrary to the judgement of a learned men. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, doth not signify here a perverseness of rule, but an absoluteness and a full power, and jurisdiction, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, is not to learn, or to perceive, evilly, and perversely, but to learn exactly, and to perceive thoroughly and perfectly? but what need we to follow conjectures in so plain a matter? when as S. Luke useth the simple words without any composition of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you not perceive that the preposition wherein you put so great confidence deceiveth you, besides the manifest untruth you commit in saying, that all (2) Untruth, for name not three evangelista. three Evangelists have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Furthermore you say that our saviour Christ says not that no man shall be great amongst them, but he that desireth to be great amongst them. He had said so before, when he had said, it shall not be so amongst you, and therefore needed not to repeat it. And yet another Evangelist says not, he that desireth to be great, but let the greatest among you be as the lest, whereby he doth not reprehend, only the desire of being great, but will not have them to be one about Lu. 22. u. 26 another. Io. Whitgifte. You ask me why you may not say that this preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signify here a perverseness The true interpretation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. of rule, but an absoluteness, and a full power and jurisdiction? I answer that if you should so say, you should say otherwise than the truth is, and contrary to the judgement of the best interpreters. Erasmus expounding that place of Matthew, says thus, Nec est simpliciter dominantur sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, dominantur in eas, sive adversus eas, frequenter enim ea praepositio in malum sonat, quod tyranni populi male gerant principalum, neither is it simply they have dominion, but they have dominion over them, or against them: for that Era. in annot. preposition (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) doth oftentimes sound in evil part, because the tyrants of the people do rule evil. And expounding the other word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he says. Et praepositio similiter in partem malam sonat, iudicans eam protestatem esse tyrannicam & cum malo parentium esse coniunctam: And the preposition (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) likewise soundeth in the evil part, declaring that power to be tyrannical, and joined with the hurt of the subjects. M. Beza in his Bez. in annot. notes upon the same place, well alloweth of this interpretation. But this also (says he) is to be understanded (which Erasmus did not let pass) hoc vocabulo & eo quod proximê sequitur, non quamuis dominationem significari, sed cum imperiosa quadam acerbitate coniunctam, quam prohibet Paulus Eph. 6. etc. that by this word, and that which next followeth, all kind of domination is not signified, but that which is joined with a certain imperious cruelty, which Paul forbiddeth. Eph. 6. so it is taken. Acts. 19 &. 1. Peter. 5. For otherwise the faithful ministers of the word of God do exercise an authority, not at all to be contemned: And therefore also I have interpreted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, licentia utuntur adversus eas, They use licence or unlawful liberty against them. That place of the. 19 of the Acts, verse. 16. doth manifestly declare the true meaning and signification of this Al5. ias. 15. word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, both in this place, and in the. 1. Pet. 5. vers. 3. for there it is manifest that it signifieth a violent kind of dominion. The place of Saint Luke must be interpreted by these places of matthew, and Mark. It is sufficient that these two Evangelists have these words, and a manifest declaration how that place of Saint Luke is to be understood. My words be not as you report them, I do not say in all the e Evangelists, but in all these places, meaning of matthew and Mark. This is but a shift to dally of a matter which you cannot answer, and the untruth returned upon yourself. When I say that Christ doth not say that no man shall be great among them, but he that doth desire to be great. etc. I say as the words be, and as Musculus himself noteth. That place of Luke which you recite is so far from answering The place of Luke insinuateth a 〈◊〉 among the Apostles. this, that it doth confirm it rather. For in that that Christ there says, he that is great among you. etc. he insinuateth that there must be some great among them, whom he there teacheth how to use himself, as I have before declared out of M. Bucer, and as Musculus doth likewise note. Luke. 22. Chapter. 1. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 15. Sect. 5. &. 6. To conclude, it is manifest, that in Matthew and Mark he reproveth the ambition of the sons of Zebedie, who ambitiously desired the one to sit on his right hand, the other on his left. And in Luke the ambition of the rest of the Apostles, who contended among themselves which of them should be greatest. So that it is plain, that these places suppress ambition and desire of rule, in all kind of men: and not superiority, not magistracy, not jurisdiction in any kind of people. T. C. Page. 12. Sect. 1 Last of all you conclude that our saviour Christ in the. 20. of Matthew reproveth the ambition of the sons of Zebedie, and in the. 22. of S. Luke all the rest of the Apostles. I grant you, he doth so, and that could not be done better, than in telling them, that they desired things not meet for them, and which would not stand with their calling. And if as you say the ambition (a) Untruth, foe say not, only. only was reprehended, and the desire of rule to oppress others with, the answer you attribute to our saviour is not so fit, for they might have replied and said, that he forbade tyrannical rule and oppression of their inferiors, but they desired that which was a moderate and well ruled government. And seemeth it unto you a probable thing that S. Luke means tyrants and oppressors, when as he saith they are called beneficial and gracious Lords? (b) That is not so men do not use to call oppressors, liberal or bountiful Lords, neither is it to be thought of all the Apostles, that they desired rule one over another, to the end that they would use cruelty, or tyranny, or oppression, one over another, for that were to do them great injury. Besides that it is said, that the rest of the disciples disdained at the two brethren, which they would not have done, if they had had any purpose or mind to have oppressed them, than they would have contemned them, rather than have disdained them, if they had broken out into such gross faults. For Aristotle teacheth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (which In his rhet . ad Theod. is the (c) It is not the same, for one is more general than the other. same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is, the verb whereof the Evangelist useth) is against those that are supposed of them that bear the disdain, to be lifted up higher and into better estate than they are worthy of, which agreeth with that interpretation which I have alleged, and cannot agreed with the other, which you set down. For who (speaking properly) would speak after this fort? The rest of the Apostles disdained at the two brethren, or thought them unworthy that they should bear tyrannical rule over them. Io. Whitgifte. I have declared both my authors and their reasons concerning the exposition of these places, which may satisfy any man that is not wilful. Your reasons to the contrary, have no ground, but only used, that it may be thought that you have said something. Beit, that Christ told the sons of zebedee, that they desired things not meet for them, what is that to the purpose, to prove that he did not reprove their ambition? as though there may not be ambition both in desiring that which is unlawful, and that also which is lawful. I do not say that their ambition only was reprehended (I marvel what you mean so to falsify my words) for I think also that he reproveth the tyrannical rule of the kings of the Gentiles. But this I with Musculus, Bucer and other learned men constantly affirm, that he condemneth not rule, but violent and heathenish rule, not superiority or government, but the ambitious and greedy desire of the same. If it so displease you that I interpret the Greek words to signify a tyrannical rule, and a government by oppression, blame Erasmus, Musculus, and Beza, who so interpret them: nay blame S. Luke who doth most evidently in the. 19 of the Act. ver. 16. use Men called by titles not deserved. one of these words in the same signification. Why they were called Liberal and bountiful, notwithstanding they be tyrants and oppressors, I have before declare 〈◊〉 desired the commendation of bountifulness and liberality, though they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eserue it. It is no strange matter for men of great authority to be called by such tles, as they do not deserve. The Pope is called sanctissimus, and seru s servorum Dei. and yet is he far from doing any thing by these names signified. Men use to call their rulers and governors by their accustomed titles, howsoever they deserve them, though it be gracious or bountiful Lords, when they have no spark of grace or bountifulness. What rule or superiority soever it was that the Apostles desired, they desired it ambitiously and out of time, and therefore were justly reproved for their ambition. I told you before that Christ in those places condemneth not ambition only, but unlawful government also, even such as the Gentiles used of whom Christ in those places speaketh. And whereas you say that the rest of the disciples disdained the two brethren. etc. you do but spend ink and paper in dallying. The disciples herded by their request that they desired promotion and preferment above the rest and therefore they disdained them: what opinion they had of their usage in their offices, that is unknown either to you, or to me, because the scripture hath not expressed it: but this I think, that they were as ambitious in disdaining, as the other were in desiring. Your definition of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 out of Aristotle is peerless (but only that thereby we may know you to be an Aristotelian) for the Apostles, disdained them, because they desired rule and dominion, not because they desired to rule well or to rule evil. And surely an envious person and a disdainful, hath not so much respect to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of the preferment and promotion of him, whom he doth envy and disdain, as he hath to the party that is preferred, and to the preferment itself: as it is not unlike that there are some of you that disdain such as be in place above you, be they Deans, Bishops, or archbishops, although you say that their offices be unlawful, and tyrannical. And this vice is too common among you, for you think some of us to be lifted up higher, and to better estate, that be not so worthy as yourselves, & hinc illae lachrymae: if I judge amiss, let the modesty of your book reprove me. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not one. In that you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be all one, you are much deceived: for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is indignatio ob res prosperas alicuius seu foelicitatem, qua indignus est, a disdain for the prosperity or felicity of some man, which he is unworthy of: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est indignatio stomachatio quaelibet & de qualibet causa, is any kind of indignation or stomacking, and for any cause: so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth contain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and is as it were genus unto it. The Exposition of the place Matth. 23. Chapter. 2. Answer to the Admonition Page. 15. Sect. ult. &. Page. 16. Sect. 1 &. 2. Touching the place in the. 23. of Matth. where Christ said unto Rabbi Ma The place of Math. 23. expounded. his disciples Be not you called Rabbi, call no man father, be not called masters. Who is so ignorant to think that Christ forbiddeth by these words one Christian man to call another Lord, master, Father? shall not children call their parent's father? shall not scholars call their teacher master? and shall not servants call him master, under whose government they are? Is it not lawful for one to call another master, Doctor, Father, Lord. etc. Paul (notwithstanding these words of Christ). 1. Cor. 4. calleth himself their father: and. 1. Tim. 2. he calleth himself the Doctor of the Gentiles. Wherefore it is manifest that these names be not here prohibited, much less the offices: but only the Pharisaical, ambitious, and arrogant affection of superiority: As it is also manifest by this that followeth: whosoever exalteth himself. etc And surely as Christ condemneth here the ambitious affection of such as ambitiously desire these names of superiority, so doth he in like manner condemn those who be so puffed up with pride and arrogancy, that they contemn and disdain to call men in authority by the titles of their offices. For pride, contempt, and arrogancy, is as well in refusing to give honour and reverence, as it is in ambtiouslye desiring the same. But the chief purpose of Christ in this place is, to teach us not so to depend upon men, as though it were not lawful to break their decrees, or to decline from their authority: For there is one only father, Lord, and master, to whom we are so bound, that by no means we may decline at any time from his precepts. These places therefore may be aptly alleged against the pride, tyranny, and ambition of the Bishop of Rome, which seeketh tyrannically to rule, and not to profit: but it maketh nothing at all against the lawful authority of any other in any state or condition of men. T. C. Page. 12. Sect. ult. Concerning the exposition and sense of that place I agreed with you, and * Belike it was fond alleged, when you do but suppose their meaning. suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the Admonition, rather to note e ambition of certain, which gape greedily at these bishoprics which we have, to the end they might be saluted by the name of Lords, and honours, than to prove that one minister should not have dominion over another. And therefore although these places be against no lawful authority of any estate or condition of men, yet as they are aptly alleged against the bishop of Rome, the one against his estate and authority simply, the other against his tyranny, and evil usage of himself in that authority: so it may be aptly alleged against any other, which shall fall into the like fault of the bishop of Rome. Io. Whitgifte. It is manifest that they quote this same place for the self same purpose that they do the other: there can be no mist so thick, that may darken the eyes of men from seeing it, except they seeing will not see, as you do at this time, I am glad that you agreed with me in the exposition of this place: surely in so doing you must also agree with me in the exposition of the other. For as Christ here doth not forbidden the names but the arrogant and ambitious desire of them, so doth he not there forbidden authority and superiority, but the coveting of it, and ambitious and inordinate desire of the same. And if you well mark the words, Christ doth here much more plainly forbidden these names, than he doth there those offices of superiority. If any man doth imitate the Bishop of Rome's ambition, either in office or in name, he hath me as great an enemy, as he hath you. But in that you pass over with silence, these words of mine, these places therefore may be aptly alleged. etc. you seem either to allow my expositions of the other places also, or else you are ashamed of your own unfaithful and subtle dealing, which before would have made your Reader believe, that I had misliked all those godly & learned men's judgements, which use these places against the Bishop of Rome: it had been plain dealing to have set down my words in order, as I have done yours. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 17. Sect. 1. 2. 3. How aptly that place of the. 24. of Matthew, But if the evil servant . shall say in his heart, etc. is alleged, let all men judge. I think it forbiddeth not to punish such as break good laws. But Lord how these men are beaten, which do as they list, say what they list, & that with rejoicing thereto? that is, if they be no otherwise beaten than hitherto they have been, they will not only with schisms & actions tear in sunder this Church of England, but in time overthrow the whole state of the common wealth. To prove that either we must have a right ministery of God, and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set up. etc. or else there can be no right religion etc. is alleged the ninth of Matthew, the fourth to the Ephe. and the eighteenth of Mat. In the ninth of Matthew the place they allege is this: Surely the harvest is great, but the labourers be few: wherefore. etc. In the fourth to the Ephe. He therefore gave some to be Apostles. etc. In the eighteenth of Mat. If thy brother trespass against thee. etc. The first place declareth that ministers of the word are necessary in Christ's Church. The second, that there is divers kinds and degrees of them. And the third showeth an order of correcting secret sins, and private offences, and meddleth not with those that be open and known to other. Now therefore consider to what purpose those places be noted in the margin, and how little they prove that which is concluded. As for all the rest of the places of scripture that followeth, noted in the margin of this Preface, I know not to what purpose they be alleged, but only for vain glory, to blear the eyes of the ignorant subtlety in quoting places only. people, and to make them believe, that all that which is written in this book, is nothing else but scripture itself. They have dealt very subtly, to quote the places only, and not to set them down in plain words, for by this means they think that of the most part it shall never be understanded, how unaptly, and to what small purpose they be alleged. Io. Whitgifte. All this L. C. passeth over in silence, thereby (as I think) acknowledging it to be true. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 18. This name Puritan is very aptly given to these men, not because The name of Puri ane. they be pure, no more than were the Heretics called Cathari, but because they think themselves to be mundiores caeteris, more pure than others, as Cathari did, & separate themselves from all other Churches and congregations as spotted and defiled. Because also they suppose the church which they have devised, to be without all impurity. T. C Pag. 13. Lin. 1. & Sect. 1 The pureness that we boast of, is the innocency of our saviour Christ, who shall cover all our unpureness, and not impute it unto us. And for so much as faith purisieth the heart, we doubt not but God of his goodness hath begun our sanctification, & hope that he will make an end of it even untu the day of our Lord jesus. Albeit we hold divers points more purely than they do, which impugn them, yet I know none that by comparison hath either said or written, that all these that think as we do in those points, are more holy, and more unblamable in life, than any of those that think otherwise. If we say that in those points which we hold from them, that we think soundlier than they do, we are ready to prove it, if we say also, that we live not so offensively to the world commonly, by getting (a) And yet some of you have a competent number, without doing any duty at them. so many livings into our hands, as would find four or five good learned able Ministers, all the world will bear us witness. Other pureness we take not upon us. And therefore, as the name was first by the Papists maliciously invented, so is it of you very unbrotherly confirmed. Whereas you say, that they are Puritans, which suppose the Church which they have devised, to be without all impurity, if you mean without sin, you do notably slander them, and it is already answered. If you mean that those are Puritans or Catharanes, which do set forth a true and perfect pattern or platform of reforming the Church, than the mark of this heresy reacheth unto those, which made the book of common prayer, (b) An untruth, for I do not say so in any place. which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to govern this Church, wherein nothing is wanting, or too little, nor nothing running over, nor too much. As for the Catharanes (which were the same that are otherwise called novatians) I know no such opinion they had, and they whom you charge, are as far from their corruption, as you be. Io. Whitgifte. You have said unto me in one place of your book, Quid verba audiam cumfacta videam? even so I say to you, for why will they not come to our Sermen, or to our Churches? why will they not communicate with us in our Sacraments? not salute us in the streets? nay spit in our faces, and openly revile us? why have they their secret conventicles? You know all this to be true in a number of them. I know not why they should do so, except they think themselves to be contaminated by hearing us preach, or by coming to our Churches, or by communicating otherwise with us. Which if they do, it argueth that they persuade themselves not only of such an outward perfection, but of such an inward purity also, that they may as justly for the same be called Puritans, as the novatians The qualities of Novatus, and cause of his heresy. were. You know that the first occasion why Novatus did separate himself from the Church, was because he could not obtain the Bishopric of Rome, which he ambitiously desired. You know also that his pretence was because the Bishops did receive those into the Church, which had fallen in the time of persecution. Afterwards he fallen into greater and mother absurdities, for commonly such as once divide themselves from the Church, fall from error to error, without stay. This Novatus though he seemed to condemn ambition in all other men, yet was he most ambitious himself: though he by vehement oaths denied himself to desire a Bishopric, yet did he most greedily seek for it: though he boasted of more perfection in life, and of a more perfect platform of a Church than he thought others had, yet was it nothing so. He was the first that I read of, that forseeke his Novatus the first that forsook his ministery. ministery, and that said, Se nolle amplius presbyterum esse, sed alterius Philosophiae studiosum: that he would no longer be a Minister, but a student in other Philosophy. Read Eusebius in his sixte book of his Ecclesiastical history, Cap. 43 and Nicephorus in his sixte book also, and third chapter. Surely the story of Novatus is worthy to be noted, because there be so many at these days, which do not so much differ from him in opinions, as they agree with him in conditions. You affirm that I say, The book of common prayer to be a perfect and absolute rule to govern this Church, wherein nothing is wanting or too little, nor nothing running over, or too much. If I have said any such thing, quote the place, that the Reader may consider of it, and know that you speak the truth. But if I never either spoke, or writ any such thing, then are you a false witness, and I have to desire the Reader to consider of the rest of your slanderous reports, according to the truth of this. I have learned with Saint Augustine to give this reverence only to the writers of Canonicali Scriptures, that I think none of them to have The canonical scriptures are only absolute & perfect. erred in writing. And I do firmly believe, that only the books of the Canonical Scripture, are of that absoluteness, and perfection, that nothing may be taken away from them, nothing added to them. I do not think the Communion book to be such, but that it may admit alteration. I do not believe it to be so perfect, but that there may be both added to it, and taken from it. But this I say, that it is a godly book, without any error in substance of doctrine, and nothing in it (that I know) against the word of God: and those imperfections, or rather motes that you say to be in it, not to be such, that any godly man ought to stir up any contention in the Church for them, much less to make a schism, and lest of all to divide himself from the Church. This is my opinion of that book, which unless by learning and good authority I justify, let me have the blame and shame of it. I will not enter into your hearts, to judge what you think of your inward purity, (which notwithstanding in comparison you have in this present place arrogated unto yourselves) that very perfection of an outward platform of a Church which you challenge unto yourselves, is one step to Novatianisme, and well deserveth the name of Catharisme. ¶ Of the authority of the Church in things indifferent. Tract. 2. Some things may be tolerated in the Church touching order, ceremonies, discipline, and kind of government, not expressed in the word of God. Chap. 1. the first Division. Admonition. Sing that nothing in this mortal life is more diligently to be sought for, and carefully to be, looked unto ( a 2. Reg. 23. 3. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psal. 132. 2. 3. 4. Mat. 21. 12. joh. 2. 15. ) than the restitution of true religion and reformation of God's Church: it shall be your parts (dearly beloved) in this present Parliament assembled, as much as in you lieth to promote the same, and to employ your whole labour and study, not only in abandoning all Popish remnauntes both in ceremonies and regiment, but also in bringing in and placing in God's Church those things only, which the Lord himself ( b Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. ) in his word commands. Because it is not might to take pains in taking away evil, ( c Psal. 37. 27. Rom. 12. 9 ) but also to be occupied in placing good in the stead thereof. Now because many men see not all things, and the ( d 1. Cor. 2. 14 ) world in this respect is marvelously blinded, it hath been thought good to proffer to your godly considerations a true platform of a Church reform, to the end that it being laid before your eyes, to behold the great unlikeness between it and this our English Church: you may learn, either with perfect ( e Psal. 31. 6. Psal. 139. 22. ) hatred to detest the one, and with singular love to embrace, and careful endeavour to plant the other: or else to be without excuse before ( f john. 15. 21. ) the majesty of our God, who (for the discharge of our conscience, & manifestation of his truth) hath by us revealed unto you at this present, the sincerity and simplicity of his Gospel. Not that you should either ( g 1. Tim. 3. 8. ) wilfully withstand, or ungraciously tread ( h Math. 7. 6. ) the same under yourfeete, for God doth not disclose his will to any such end, but that you should yet now at the length with all your main and might, endeavour that Christ (whose ( i Mat. 11. 3 ) easy yoke and light burden we have of long time cast of from us) might rule and reign in his Church by the sceptre of his word only. ¶ Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 20. Sect. 1 &. 2. I Will not answer words, but matter, nor bore affirmations or negations, but reasons: and therefore in as few words as I can, I will comprehend many lines. But before I enter into their reasons, I think it not amiss to examine that assertion which is the chief and The ground of the Admonition. principal ground (so far as I can gather) of their book, that is, that those things only are to be placed in the church, which the Lord himself in his word commandeth. As though they should say, nothing is to be tolerated in the Church of Christ, touching either doctrine, order, ceremonies, discipline, or government, except it be expressed in the word of God. And therefore the most of their arguments in this book be taken ab authoritate negatiuè, which by the rules of Logic prove nothing at all. T. C. Pag. 13. Sect. 2. YOu give occasion of suspicion, that your end will be scarce good, which have made so evil a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition, that nothing should be placed in the Church, but that God hath in his word commanded, as though the words were not plain mough, you will give them some light by your exposition. And what is that? you answer that it is as much as though they would say, nothing is to be tolerated in the Church of Christ, touching either doctrine, order, ceremonies, discipline, or government, except it be expressed in the word of God. Is this to interpret? is it all one to say, (a) But their quarrel is in tolerating, not in placing. nothing must be placed in the Church, and nothing must be tolerated in the Church? he hath but small judgement, that can not tell, that certain things may be tolerated, and born with for a tyme. Which if they were to be set in and placed, could not be done without the great fault of them that should place them. Again, are these of like weight, except it be commanded in the word of God, and except it be expressed in the word of God? Many things are both commanded and forbidden, of which there is no express mention in the word, which are as (b) A Papistical assertion. necessarily to be followed or avoided, as those whereof express mention is made. Therefore unless your weights be truer, if I could let it, you should weigh none of my words. Hereupon you conclude, that their arguments taken ab authoritate negative, prove nothing. When the question is of the authority of a man, in deed it neither holdeth (c) Untrue. affirmatively nor negatively. For as it is no good argument to say, it is not true because Aristotle or Plato said it not: so is it not to say, it is true because they said so. The reason whereof is, because the infirmity of man can neither attain to the perfection of any thing, whereby he might speak all things that are to be spoken of it, neither yet be free from error in those things, which he speaketh or giveth out, and therefore this argument neither affirmatively, nor negatively compelleth the hear : but only induceth him to some liking or misliking of that, for which it is brought, and is rather for an Orator to persuade the simpler sort, than for a disputer to enforce him that is learned. But for so much as the Lord God, determining to set before our eyes a perfect form of his Church, is both able to do it, and hath done it, a man may reason both ways necessarily. The Lord hath commanded it should be in his Church: therefore it must. And of the other side, he hath not commanded: therefore it must not be. And it is not hard to show, that the Prophets have so reasoned negatively. As when in the person of the Lord the Prophet saith, whereof I have not spoken, and which never entered into my heart: and as where he condemneth them, jerem. 7. ver. 31. 32. Esay. 30. V 2 * because they have not asked counsel at the mouth of the Lord. Io. Whitgifte. This my interpretation of their words is grounded upon the whole discourse and drift of their book, as it may evidently appear to be true to any that hath eyes to see, and ears to hear: and show you if you can any one place in their book, which doth overthrow this my interpretation of their words. I know it is one thing to say, that nothing must be placed in the Church, and an other thing to say, that nothing must be tolerated, but I see that they make no difference between them neither in their writing, nor yet in their practice. And I think also that there is some difference betwixt these two manner of speeches, except it be commanded in the word of God, and except it be expressed in the word of God. For I know sundry things to be expressed in the word of God, which are not commanded: as Christ his fasting forty days, and his other miracles, and therefore by that interpretation I have given unto them a larger scope than they themselves require, which if it be an injury, it is to myself, and not to them. But I think you were not well advised, when you said, that many things are both An unadvised assertion of T. C. tending to Papistry. commanded and forbidden, of which there is no express mention in the word of God, which are as necessarily to be followed or avoided, as those whereof express mention is made. If you mean that many things are commanded or forbidden in the word; which are not expressed in the word, in my opinion you speak contraries: For how can it be commanded or forbidden in the word, except it be also expressed in the same? If you mean, that many things are commanded or forbidden to be done, necessary unto salvation, which notwithstanding are not expressed in the word of God, than I see not how you differ from that opinion, which is the ground of all Papistry, that is, that all things necessary unto salvation are not expressed in the scriptures. How soever you mean it, it can not be true: for there is nothing necessary to eternal life, which What is said to be expressed in the Scripture. is not both commanded and expressed in the Scripture. I count it expressed, when it is either in manifest words contained in Scripture, or thereof gathered by necessary collection. If I had to do with a Papist, I could prove this to be true by the manifest testimonies of the Scripture itself, and also by sundry other, both ancient and late writers, but because I think it hath but overslipped you, and that upon better advise you will reform it, therefore I will cease to deal further in it, until I understand more of your meaning. My conclusion touching Arguments negative ab authoritate, (as I understand it, Arguments ab authoritate negative. and have expounded it, in the words following) is very true, and must of necessity be so. You say, that when the question is of the authority of a man, it holdeth neither affirmatively, nor negatively. Wherein you show yourself not to be so skilful in that, the ignorance whereof you do so often in your book object unto me: for not in Aristotle An arg enter ab authoritate holdeth affirmatively. only, lib. 3. Top. and lib. 2. Rhet. ad Theod. but in every half penny Logic, (as you term them) the place ab authoritate is expressed, and the arguments taken out of the same, said to hold affirmatively, and not otherwise: the rule whereof is this, unicuique in sua arte perito credendum est. It is a good argument to say, that it is true because 1. Top. Cap. 8. Aristotle or Plato said it, if it be of any thing pertaining to that Art, wherein Aristotle or Plato were cunning and expert. Whether all things pertaining to the outward form of the Church be particularly expressed, or commanded in the Scripture, or not, is the question that we have now in controversy: that God could do it, and therefore hath done it, is no good reason, no more than it is for the real presence in the Sacrament. Affirmatively the argument is always good of the authority of the Scripture: as God hath there commanded it to be done, therefore it must be done. Or the Scripture affirmeth it to be so, Ergo, it is so. But negatively it holdeth not, except in matters of salvation and damnation, which is not my opinion only, but the opinion of the best interpreters. Zuinglius in Elencho contra Catabaptist. reproveth them Zuinglius in Elench. for reasoning on this sort, his words be these: You shall find no way to escape, for fond you reason à factis & exemplis negatively: yea à non factis & non exemplis: for what other reason use you than this: we read not that the Apostles baptised infants, Ergo they are not to be baptised. The examples that you use in the. 7. of jerem. verse. 31. 32. and. 30. of Esay. ver. 2. The places which T. C. quoteth, prove not his purpose. to prove that in external and indifferent matters, we may reason negatively of the authority of the Scriptures, are far fetched, and nothing to your purpose. For that which the Prophet jeremy speaketh of, is a matter of great importance, even most horrible and cruel sacrifices, wherein they burnt their sons, and daughters. jere. 7. ver. 31. Which they were not only not commanded to do, but expressly forbidden, as it appeareth in the. 18. of Leuiti. verse. 21. and the. 20. of Leuiti. verse. 3. and the. 18. of Deutero. verse. 10. Now to reason thus, God hath commanded that you shall not give your children to be offered to Moloche, and he hath not given you any commandment to the contrary, therefore you ought not to have offered them: is affirmative, not negative: although in this case, being a matter of substance, and of salvation or damnation (for to kill and murder is of that nature) a negative argument is very strong. The Prophet Esay reproveth the jews for using their Esa. 30. ver. 2. own advise, seeking help of the Egyptians, in the time of their adversity, and not of the Lord. Which they did both contrary to their own promise, and also contrary to the commandment of God, Deutero. 17. verse. 16. But what is this to prove that we may reason negatively of the authority of the Scriptures, in matters of rites and ceremonies, and other indifferent things? You accuse me for not alleging of Scriptures, better it were to allege none, than thus to allege them to no purpose, or rather to abuse them. Chapter. 1. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. 2. 3. It is most true, that nothing aught to be tolerated in the Church, as necessary unto salvation, or as an article of faith, except Wherein the scripture is sufficient. it be expressly contained in the word of God, or may manifestly thereof be gathered: and therefore we utterly condemn and reject Transubstantiation, the Sacrifice of the Mass, the authority of the Bishop of Rome, worshipping of Images. etc. And in this case an argument taken ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè, is most strong: As for example. It is not to be found in Scripture, that the Bishop of Rome ought to be the head of the Church, and therefore it is not necessary to salvation, to believe that he aught to be the head of the Church. etc. It is also true, that nothing in ceremonies, order, discipline, or government in the Church is to be suffered, being against the word of God: And therefore we reject all ceremonies, wherein there is any opinion to salvation, worshipping of God, or merit: As creeping to the cross, holy bread, holy-water, holycandle. etc. T. C. Pag. 14. Lin. 3. But you say, that in matters of faith and necessary to salvation it holdeth, which things you oppose after, and set against matters of ceremonies, orders, discipline, & government, (*) As though i were enough for you to say on such silly proofs. as though matters of discipline and kind of government were not matters necessary to salvation, and of faith. (a) arg. ex solis particularibus. The case which you put, whither the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church, is a matter that concerneth the government, and the kind of government of the Church, and the same is a matter that toucheth faith, and that standeth upon our salvation. Excommunication, and other censures of the Church, which are forerunners unto excommunication, are matters of discipline, and the same are also of faith, and of salvation. The sacraments of the lords Supper, and of baptism are ceremonies, and are matters of faith, and necessary to salvation. And therefore you which distinguish between these, and say, that the former, that is matters of faith and necessary to salvation may not be tolerated in the Church, unless they be expressly contained in the word of God or manifestly gathered: But that this later which are, ceremonies, order, discipline, government in the Church, may not be received against the word of God, and consequently received if there be no word against them, although there be none for them: you I say distinguishing or dividing after this sort, do prove yourself to be as evil a divider, as you showed yourself before an expounder, for this is to break in pieces, and not to divide. Io. Whitgifte. That matters of ceremonies, discipline, and kind of government be matters necessary unto salvation is a doctrine strange, and unheard of to me, whereof I will by and by speak more at large, after I have in a word or two answered your objections of the Bishop of Rome, and of the sacraments of Baptism, and the lords Supper: for you say, The case which I put whither the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church, is a matter that concerneth the government, and the kind of government of the Church, and the same is a matter that toucheth faith, and that standeth upon salvation. Whereupon belike you would conclude, that matters of government, and kind of government, are matters necessary to salvation. Surely I put no such case: but I put such an example, to prove that we may reason ab authoritate scripturae negatiuè, for this is a good argument, we find it not in Scripture that the Bishop of Rome aught to be the head of the Church: Ergo, it is not necessary to salvation to believe, that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Church: the which thing notwithstanding the Papists do affirm: for they say thus, Subesse Romano pontifici omni animae est de necessitate salutis: to be subject to the Bishop of Rome is of necessity of salvation to all men. Now sir, my reason is framed thus against them, whatsoever is necessary to salvation is contained in the Scriptures, but that she Pope should be the head of the Church, is not contained in the Scriptures: Therefore it is not necessary to salvation. But you reason clean contrary, for you conclude thus, whether the Pope be the head of the Church is a matter of government and of the kind of government, but the Papists say (for that I take to be your meaning) that it is a matter necessary unto salvation, that the Pope should be the head of the Church: Ergo matters of government and kind of government are necessary unto salvation. Thus you see how popishely, with a popish reason you make a very popish conclusion. Certainly no government is to be brought into the Church that is directly against the word of God, as the Pope's is, which doth not only usurp the office and authority of kings and Princes, but of Christ also, and commandeth things contrary to faith, and to the manifest word of God, wherefore his authority is wicked and damnable, but it doth not therefore follow to make this a general rule, that the government of the Church or kind of government is necessary to salvation. Do you not know of what force an argument is ex solis particularibus? To prove that Ceremonies are necessary to salvation you reason thus: The Sacraments of the lords Supper, and of baptism, are ceremonies, and are matters of faith, and necessary to salvation: Ergo, etc. Undoubtedly you are as evil a reasoner, as I am either an expounder or divider, because the Supper of the Lord, and Baptism be matters of salvation, therefore are all ceremonies matters of salvation? will you ex solis particularibus conclude an universal proposition? furthermore you know that the Supper and Baptism be not only Ceremonies, but also Sacraments, instituted and commanded by Christ, having promises of salvation, annexed unto them: and so have not other ceremonies. And you speak too basely of them, when you call them ceremonies, not showing how or in what sort they may be so called. It is the next way to bring the Sacraments into contempt, and it argueth that you have not so reverent an opinion of them, as you aught to have. Therefore the reader must understand that there be two kinds of Ceremonies, Two kinds of ceremonies. the one substantial, the other accidental: substantial Ceremonies I call Substantial ceremonies. those which be de substantia Religionis, of the substance of Religion, and commanded in the word of God as necessary, and have promises annexed unto them, as the Supper of the Lord, and Baptism. Accidental I call such as may be done or Accidental ceremonies. undone as order requireth, and altered according to time, place, person, and other circumstances, without any opinion of justification, necessity, or worship in the same, pertaining only to external comeliness, order, decency. etc. of the which kind these be that the Apostle Saint Paul mentioneth. 1. Cor. 11. that, men should 1. Cor. 11. pray bareheaded, and not women, and such like, as I have in my answer to the Admonition more particularly declared. Such Ceremonies I deny to be matters of Fol. 15. Sect. 5. salvation: and in such I say (as you also afterwards confess) the Church hath authority to appoint from time to time, as shall be thought expedient, though the same Ceremonies be not expressed in the word of God: so that my division holdeth, and is stronger than you shall be able to ounerthrowe with all the force you have. But now to your Paradox, you say that matters of discipline and kind of government, Matters of the kind of government and discipline are not necessary to salvation. Two kinds of government of the church. are matters necessary to salvation, and of faith. And you add that excommunication and other censures of the Church, which are forerunners unto excommunication, are matters of discipline, and the same are also of faith and of salvation. There are two kinds of government in the Church, the one invisible, the other visible, the one spiritual, the other external. The invisible and spiritual government of the Church is, when God by his spirit, gifts, and ministery of his word doth govern it, by ruling in the hearts and consciences of men, and directing them in all things necessary to everlasting life: this kind of government in deed is necessary to salvation, and it is in the Church of the elect only. The visible and external government, is that which is executed by man, and consists of external discipline, and visible Ceremonies practised in that Church, and over that Church, that containeth in it both good and evil, which is usually called, the visible Church of christ, and compared by Christ to a field wherein both good seeds and tars Math. 13. were sown: and to a net that gathered of all kind of fishes. If you mean this kind of government, then must I ask you this question, whither your meaning is, that to have a government is necessary to salvation, Or to have some one certain form, and kind of government, not to be altered in respect of time, people, or place? Likewise would I know of you, what you mean by necessary unto salvation. Whither you mean such things, without the which we can not be saved: or such things only as be necessary or ordinary helps unto salvation: for you know that this word necessary signifieth either that without diverse signification of the word necessary. the which a thing can not be, or that, without the which it can not so well and conveniently be. But for so much as you afterward make mention of excommunication, and other censures of the Church, which are forerunners unto excommunication, I take it that you mean the external government of the Church, and that kind of government. And yet must I ask you another question, that is, whither you mean that this government, and kind of government is necessary at all times, or then when the Church is collected together, and in such place where it may have government. For you know that the Church is sometimes by persecution so dispersed, that it appeareth not, as we read Apocal. 6. Nor hath any certain place to remain in, so that it can not have any external government, or exercise of any discipline. But to be short, I confess that in a Church collected together in one place, and In what specte government is necessary. at liberty, government is necessary in the second kind of necessity, but that any one kind of government is so necessary that without it the Church can not be saved, or that it may not be altered into some other kind thought to be more expedient, I utterly deny, and the reasons that move me so to do be these. The first is, because I find no one certain and perfect kind of government Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certain kind of external government. prescribed or commanded in the Scriptures to the Church of Christ, which no doubt should have been done, if it had been a matter necessary unto the salvation of the Church. Secondly because the essential notes of the Church be these only: The true preaching of the word of God, and the right administration of the Sacraments: Only two essential notes of the church. for (as Master Caluine saith in his Book against the Anabaptistes) This honour is meet to be given to the word of God, and to his Sacraments, that wheresoever we Caluine adver. Anabap. see the word of God truly preached, and God according to the same truly worshipped, and the Sacraments without superstition administered, there we may without all controversy conclude the Church of God to be: and a little after, so much we must esteem the word of God, and his Sacraments, that wheresoever we find them to be, there we may certainly know the Church of God to be, although in the common life of men, many faults and errors be found. The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers, and the judgement of the reform Confess. Heb vetica. cap. 17. Churches, as appeareth by their confessions. So that notwithstanding government or some kind of government may be a part of the Church, touching the outward form and perfection of it, yet is it not such a part of the essence and being: but that it may be the Church of Christ without this or that kind of government, and therefore the kind of government of the Church is not necessary unto salvation. The Church of Corinth when Paul did writ unto it, was the Church of Christ, for so doth he call it. 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth give unto it, a singular commendation, and yet it had not at that time when he so commends it, that kind of government and discipline, that you mean of, that is, excommunication as appeareth. 1. Cor. 5. My third reason is this. If excommunication (which is a kind of government) be necessary to salvation, than any man may separate himself from every Church wherein is no excommunication, but no man may separate himself from every Church wherein is no excommunication, therefore excommunication (which is a kind of government) is not necessary to salvation. The first proposition is evident, for no man is bound to remain in that Church where any thing is wanting, without the which he cannot want of excommunication is no just cause of separation from any Church. be saved. As for the second proposition (that is to say) that no man aught to separate himself from every Church, where excommunication is not, because it is learnedly proved by such as have written against the Anabaptistes, who both did teach and practise the contrary, it shall be sufficient to refer you unto them. Master Caluine, in his Book against the Anabaptistes faith thus. Herein is the controversy Caluine adver. Anabap. betwixt the Anabaptistes and us, that they think there is no Church where this government (meaning excommunication) is not appointed, or not used and exercised, as it aught to be, nor that a Christian man there aught to receive the Supper and under that pretence they separate themselves from the Churches where the word of God is truly preached. etc. M. Bullinger also in his sixt book against the Anabaptistes says. This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. adver. Anabap. do urge, that there is no true Church acceptable unto God, where there is no excommunication, the which they use. To these therefore we answer, that the Church of Corinth was a true Church, and so acknowledged of Paul to be. 1. Cor. 1. before there was any use of excommunication in it. etc. of the same judgement is M. Gaulter writing upon Gualther in. 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth. 5. Whilst the Anabaptistes persuade themselves that there can be no discipline without excommunication, they trouble the Churches every where. etc. In the same Chapter he saith, that there is no one certain kind of government or discipline prescribed to the Churches, but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require. His words among other be these, Let every Church follow Ibidem. that manner of discipline, which doth most agreed, with the people with whom it abideth, and which seemeth to be most fit, for the place and time. And let no man here rashly prescribe unto others, neither let him bind all Churches to one and the same form. But of this matter I shall have occasion to speak more hereafter, where it shall appear how far this learned man M. Gualther is, from allowing that kind of g vernment now in this state of the Church, the which T. C. would make us to believe to be so necessary. This have I briefly set down, not to disallow discipline or government (for I think it very convenient in the Church of Christ,) nor yet to reject excommunication, which also hath a necessary use in the government of the Church, but to declare that this assertion can not stand with the truth, & with learning, that the kind of government (meaning as I think some one certain kind of external government) is necessary to salvation. Chap. 1. the third Division. T. C. Page. 14. Sect. 1 &. 2. And it is no small injury which you do unto the word of God, to pin it in so narrow room, as that it should be able to direct us, but in the principal points of our Religion, or as though the substance of Religion, or some rude and unfashioned matter of building of the Church were uttered in them, and those things were left out, that should pertain to the form and fashion of it: or as if there were in the Scriptures (*) T. C. accoun th' external govemm t more precious than the doctrine of faith. only to cover her nakedness, & not also chains and bracelets and rings, and other jewels to adorn her and set her out: or that to conclude, there were sufficient to quench her thirst, and kill her hunger, but not to minister, unto her a more liberal, and (as it were) a móre delicious and dainty diet. These things you seen e to say, when you say, that atters necessary to salvation and of faith are contained in the Scripture, specially when you oppose these things, to ceremonies, order, discipline, and government. And if you mean by matters of faith and necessary to salvation, those without which a man can not be saved, than the (*) Note this ssertion. doctrine that teacheth there is no free will, or prayer for the dead, is not within your compass. For I dou t not, but divers of the fathers of the Greek Church, which were great patrons of free will, are saved, (a) He that dieth in the opinion of free will, holdeth not this foundation holding the foundation of the faith which is Christ. The like might be said of a number of other, as necessary doctrines as that, wherein men being misled, have notwithstanding been saved. Therefore seeing that the point of the question l eth chief in this distinction, it had been good, that you had spoken (b) Why then ave not you done it, speaking so dangerously? more certainly and properly of these things. Io. Whitgifte. When you say, That it i no small in urie that I do unto the word of God to pin it up in so narrow room. etc. You do but enlarge the volume of your book with bore words that might well be spared. I gy e that perfection to the word of God, which the word itself requireth, and all godly learned men consent unto: and much more do I attribute unto it than you do, in saying that many things are both commanded and forbidden of the which there is no express mention in the word, which are as necessary to be followed Pag. 13. Sect. 2. or avoided, as those whereof express mention is made, which I take to derogate much from the perfection of the Scriptures, to be mere Papistical, and quite contrary to that, that you do pretend. I also confess, that in all other things we must so be directed by the Scriptures, that we do nothing contrary to the true sense and meaning of them, not not in external and in the least matters: neither do I otherwise writ, teach, or speak of the perfection and authority of the Scriptures, than all other lean men, and the reform Churches, teach, writ, and believe: wherefore I pass over your words and come to your reasons. If I mean, say you, by matters of faith and necessary to salvation, those without the which a man can not be saved. etc. I can not but muse what you mean willingly to pretend ignorance. Is this think you a sound argument: divers of the fathers of the Greek Church, which were great patrons of free will, are saved, holding the foundation of the faith which is Christ: Ergo The doctrine of free will is not a doctrine of salvation or damnation? you might as well say, that many in the popish Church which believed that the Pope was supreme head of the Church, that the Mass was a sacrifice for the quick & the dead, and such like points of papistical Religion be saved, Ergo these are no matters of salvation or damnation. Surely by the same reason all other kind of sins (almost) The mercy of God infinite. might be without this compass. But it may please you to understand, that the mercy of God in his son jesus Christ is infinite, and that he pardoneth at his good will and pleasure, not only misbelief proceeding of ignorance, but wilful erreurs, and sins also, though they be of themselves damnable: he also altereth the mind of man even in a moment, and therefore as his mercies be infinite, so be his judgements unsearchable. Wherefore this your reason is uttered without due consideration. The doctrine of free will because it is an enemy to the grace of God, must needs be of itself a damnable doctrine, yet doth it not prejudice the mercy of God, nor finally shut out repentance the gift of God. And full well do you know, that he can not hold the foundation of faith (that is Christ) perfectly, which is a maintainer of free will. But leaviug the weight of such kind of arguments to the consideration of the Reader: I come to the purpose. When I say that an argument holdeth negatively from the authority of the Scripture in matters of faith and necessary to salvation, my meaning is manifest: which is this, that the Scriptures do contain all things necessary to be believed, and to salvation: and therefore whatsoever is taught unto us, as an article of faith and necessary to salvation, not contained in the scriptures, that same to be false and untrue, and therefore to be rejected. As for example, the doctrine of free will, of Purgatory, of praying for the dead, of praying to Saint , of the sacrifice of the Mass, etc. are not contained in the Scriptures, and therefore they be not doctrines to be believed, nor necessary to salvation, but damnable d ctrynes of themselves, and repugnant to salvation. Surely I think in this point that you neither understand me nor yourself: my meaning is plain, that nothing is necessary to salvation, which is not plainly contained in the Scriptures. Chap. 1. the fourth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 21. Sect. 4. But, that no ceremony, order, discipline, or kind of government What things the Scripture hath not expressed, but left to the ordering of the Church. may be in the Church, except the same be expressed in the word of God, is a great absurdity, and breeds many inconveniences. T. C. Pag. 14. Sect. 3 But to the end it may appear, that this speech of yours: doth some thing take up and shrink the arms of the Scripture, which otherwise are so long & large: I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the Church, yea of whatsoever things can fall into any part of man's life. For so Solomon says in the second chapter of the proverbs. My son if thou receive my words, and hide my precepts in the. etc. then thou shalt understand justice and The Scripture wrested by T. C. judgement, and equity, and every good way. S. Paul saith that whither we eat or drink, or 1. Cor. 10. what soever we do, we must do it to the glory of God. But no man can glorify God in any thing but by obedience, and there is no obedience, but in respect of the commandment and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions: & that which 1. Tim. 4. S. Paul said of meats and drinks, that they are sanctified unto us by the word of God, the same is to be understanded of all things else whatsoever we have the use of. But the place of S. Paul in the. 14. to the Rom. is of all other most clear, where speaking of those things which are called indifferent, in the end he concludeth, that whatsoever is not of faith is sin: but faith is not but in respect of the word of God, therefore whatsoever is not done by the word of God, is sin. And if any will say that S. Paul means there, a full persuasion and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that that which he doth is well done, I grant it. But from whence can that spring but from faith, and how can we persuade and assure ouresclues that we do well, but whereas we have the word oh God for our warrant? so that the Apostle by a metonunie, Subjecti pro adiuncto, doth give to understand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring, whereupon it falls out, that for as much as ma our actions even civil and private, we aught to follow the direction of the word of God, in matters of the Church, & which concern all, there may be nothing done but by the word of Go . (a) Then have you heth r to stri ed in vain Not that we say, as you charge us in these words, when you say, that we say, that (b) Hold you here. no 〈◊〉. etc. may be in the Church, except the same be expressed in the word of God, but that in making orders & ceremonies of the Church, it is not lawful to do what men list, but they are bond to follow the general rules of the scripture, that are given to be the squire, whereby those should be squared out. Io. Whitgifte. When I say that the scriptures contain all things necessary unto salvation, I do Now scripture 〈◊〉 the direction of all things belonging to the life of man. Page 15.. not mean that it containeth those things only, neither do I deny but that the word of God, so containeth generally the direction of all things pertaining to the Church, or that 〈◊〉 fall into any part of man's life, that nothing aught to be done in the Church, or in the life of man contrary to the word of God, or not according to the true intent and meaning of the same. Yet do I deny that the scriptures do express particularly every thing that is to be done in the Church (which you yourself afterward confess) or that it doth set down any one certain form and kind of government of the Church, to be perpetual for all times, people, and places, without alteration, as I shall hereafter more particularly declare. The place you do allege out of the. 2. chap. of Salomons proverbs, doth not prove your purpose, for Solomon there teacheth the fruits and commodity of wisdom, and in the person of her, declareth what understanding he shall have in righteousness, judgement, equity, and every good path, that hearkeneth unto wisdom, obeyeth her commandments, and giveth his heart to knowledge. But what is this to prove, that the scripture hath expressed every particular ceremony, or kind of government in the Church? how followeth this reason, if Princes and such as be in authority, receive the words of wisdom, and hide her commandments within them. etc. they shall understand Pro er. 2. righteousness, judgement, and equity, and every good path. etc. therefore the scriptures do express every ceremony, order, discipline or kind of government that is to be used in the Church? surely except you take heed you will wander as far out of the way in aleaging the scriptures, as the authors of the Admonition did in quoting them. I grant you that Princes must give themselves to the understanding of wisdom, and especially of the wisdom of God contained in his word, for so shall they understand righteousness, judgement, and equity, and every good path. etc. But what is this to our question? Magistrates must be directed by the word of God: Ergo they must make no civil or ecclesiastical law, or order, which is not expressed in the word of God: I deny this argument. Your other text is written in the. 1. Cor. 10. Wither therefore we eat or drink. etc. Whereupon you frame this argument: whatsoever 1. Cor. 10. we do, we must do it to the glory of God: but no man can glorify God in any thing but by obedience, and there is no obedience, but in respect of the commandment and word of God. Therefore it followeth, that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions: (to omit the undigested form of this argument, wherein the conclusion agreeth not with the 〈◊〉) this text is as far from the purpose as is the other, for what sequel is this, we must do all to the glory of God, we must obey the commandment & words of God: Ergo we must do nothing in our whole life, but that which is particularly expressed in the word of God: Or, therefore the scripture expresseth every particular ceremony, or er, or kind of government to be used in the Church? You may as well by this place conclude, that every civil action, every private action, every civil kind of government, is expressed in the word. For this rule of S. Paul is general, and pertaineth to all Christians, of what state, condition or degree so ever they be. But the true meaning of S. Paul in that place is, that we seek the glory of God in all things, & do nothing that is against his word and commandment. He glori ieth God in meat & drink which acknowledgeth God to be the giver of them, and then is thankful for them, and useth them moderately, etc. the like is to be said of all other actions. That which Saint Paul (you say) said of meats and drinks, that they are sanctified unto us by the word of God. etc. It is true, but to what purpose do you allege that 1. Tim. 4. place? The word of God pronounceth all God's creatures to be good, and the use of them to be lawful (for all things are clean to those that be clean) the same are to Tit. 1. 15. be desired by us of him, as the author and giver of them, and when we have them we must be thankful for them: But what is this to the proof of any thing that we have now in controversy? But the place of Saint Paul in the. 14. to the Romans (you say) is of all other most clear. etc. Whereupon you frame this argument, Paul speaking of things which are called indifferent, sayeth that whatsoever is not of saith, is sin, but faith is not but in respect of the word of God: therefore what soever is not done by the word of God is sin: still I omit the evil framing of your arguments: For I respect not the defacing of your skill, but the grounds of your proofs. That sentence of Saint The place in the. 14. to the Rom. expounded. Paul is also general, and it is to be extended to all civil actions, as well as it is to Ecclesiastical, and therefore if it prove that all Civil and Politic actions and kinds of government must be particularly expressed in the Scrptures: it proveth the same in Ecclesiastical matters also: else not. But the meaning of the Apostle is, that we should do nothing against our conscience, nothing but that which we do believe not to displease God, not to be against his word, or commandment. For not to be of Faith, hath divers significations. first, it signifieth that, that is contrary to the persuasion of the faith and judgement of the conscience: Secondly it signifieth, not to be taken as an article of Faith. If it be taken in the first signification: Then it is not true that whatsoever can not be proved in the word of God, is not of faith, for then to take up a straw, to observe many Civil orders, and to do a number of particular actions, were against faith, and so deadly sin: because it is not found in the word of God, that we should do them. The which doctrine must needs bring a great servitude and bondage to the conscience, restrain or rather utterly overthrow that part of Christian liberty, which consists in the free use of indifferent things, neither commanded nor forbidden in the word of God, and throw men headlong into desperation. For what man is able to show the word of God for all things he doth? If it be taken in the second signification, than it is true, that that is not of Faith, which can not be proved by the word. For nothing is to be believed as an article of faith, which cannot be proved by the word of God. In this. 14. to the Romans, not to be of Faith is taken in the first signification, that is against the persuasion of the faith and judgement of the conscience: as though he should say, whatsoever a man doth against his conscience, that is sin. And this to be the true meaning of this place, the words Rom. 14. vers. 22. going before, do declare, where the Apostle sayeth, Blessed is he that condemneth not himself in the thing which he alloweth, that is, whose dooyngs are not against his conscience. This rule (I say) of Saint Paul, extendeth as well to Civil actions, as it doth to Ceremonies and orders of the Church, and therefore what you will conclude of the one, that must you also conclude of the other: But I think you will not say, that every civil action must be expressed or commanded in the word of God: wherefore neither can you prove by these words of S. Paul, that every ceremony, order, or kind of government in the Church must be commanded by the word of God. But what need I labour so much in a matter at the length confessed, The matter in controversy is by T. C. confessed. by yourself: for you deny that you say, That no Ceremony. etc. may be in the Church, except the same be expressed in the word of God, but that in making orders and ceremonies of the Church, it is not lawful to do what men list. etc. Hold you here, and we shall soon agree. For neither doth that, that I have hitherto spoken in this matter, nor that which I intend to speak hereafter, disagree from this: the which you might have seen, if it it had pleased you, page. 22. and. 28. of the Answer to the Admonition, and in my Pag. 22. sect. 2. Pag. 28. sect. 2. whole discourse of that matter. Wherefore if you were constant, and not contrary unto yourself, or at the lest not desirous to have showed yourself contrary to that which I have in this point written (though you here confess it to be true) you might have both eased yourself and me of this labour. Chap. 1. the fift Division. T. C. Page. 15. lin. 8. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Which rules I will here set down, as those which I would have as well all orders and ceremonies of the Church framed by, as by the which I will be content, that all those orders and ceremonies which are now in question, whether they be good and convenient or not, should be tried and examined by. And they are those rules, which Saint Paul gave in such cases, as are not particularly mentioned of in the Scripture. 1. Cor. 10. 1. Cor. 14. The first, that they offend not any (a) You add, especially, to the text especially the Church of God. The second is, (that which you cite also out of Paul) that all be done in order and comeliness. 1. Cor. 14. Rom. 14. The third, that all be done to edifying. The last, that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you reckon up of the hour, and time, & day of prayer, etc. albeit they be not specified in the Scripture, yet they are not left to any, to order at their pleasure▪ or so that they be not against the word of God: but even by and according to the word of God, they must be established, and those alone to be taken, which do agreed best & nearest with these rules before recited. And so it is brought to pass (which you think a great absurdity,) that all things in the Church should be appointed, according to the word of God: whereby it likewise appeareth, that we deny not but (b) Here in effect T. C. confesseth the matter in question. certain things are left to the order of the Church, because they are of that nature, which are varied by times, places, people, and other circumstances, and so could not at once be set down and established for ever: (c) What is affirmed otherwise▪ in the answer to the Admonition and yet so left to the order of the church, as that it do nothing against the rules aforesaid. But how doth this follow, that certain things are left to the order of the Church, therefore to make a new ministery by making an archbishop, to altar the ministery that is appointed, by making a Bishop or pastor without a Church or flock, to make a Deacon, without appointing him his Church whereof he is deacon, and where he might exercise his charge of providing for the poor, to abrogate clean both name and office of the eldet, with other more: how I say do these follow that because the Church hath power to order certain things, therefore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordained and established: of the which there is no time, nor place, nor person, nor any other circumstance, which can 'cause any alteration or change? which thing shall better appear both in the Discourse of the whole book: and especially there where you go about to show certain reasons, why there should be other government now, than was in the time of the Apostles. Io. Whitgifte. You set down four rules, which you would have all orders and ceremonies of The first rule of T. C. concerning ceremonies examined. the Church framed by. etc. The first is. 1. Cor. 10. that they offend not any, especially the Church of God, which rule I think you take out of these words of that Chapter, Tales estote, ut nullum praebeatis offendiculum, neque judaeis. etc. be such as you give no offence neither to the jews, nor to the Grecians, nor to the Church of God. But truly they make 1. Co. 10. ve. 32. little or nothing for your purpose, neither yet any other thing contained in that chapter. For the Apostle there showeth how one private man should behave himself towards an other, yea and towards the Church in things that may be done, or not The orders of the Church depend not upon every man's liking, or misliking. be done: he prescribeth no general rule for the Church to make orders and appoint Ceremonies by. For what reason were it that the orders of the Church should so depend upon one or two men's liking or misselyking, that she should be compelled to altar the same, so oft as any should therewith be offended? Which must of necessity come to pass, if this your rule were general. For what Church is void of some contentious people, & quarrelers, whom no order, no reason, no reformation Musculus. can please? It is true that Musculus saith: There be some whom no church can please, having always some thing to reprove in other men, and nothing in themselves. The Anabaptistes, the Libertines, the Papists, and other unquiet minds, and contentious people are offended with such rites and Ceremonies as the reform Churches use: neither is there (as I suppose) any reform Church void of some of these kind of people: shall they therefore by and by altar the form and state? S. Paul in this place would have no just offence given to any either faithful or infidel. For Christians aught to be such, at whose examples, doctrine, and life, no man might justly take any offence. True it is, that in all orders and Ceremonies the Church must take heed that there be no just offence given, but she hath not to depend upon every private man's judgement. Whereas you say, especially the Church of God, you add to the words of the Apostle, T. C. addeth to the text, to make it serve his turn. for he saith not especially: and if you mark his meaning well, you shall rather find that he would have especial care taken, that there be no offence given to such as are not yet come to the Church (which some understand by the jews and Grecians) lest they should still be withdrawn from the Church, when as there is no such fear to be had of those that be already membres of the same. The second rule of T. C. allowed. The judgement of comeliness and order, rests not in every private person. The third rule examined. Your second rule. 1. Cor, 14. is a good and necessary rule, not only alleged by me, b t allowed and embraced as most convenient: but who shall judge what is most comely and the best order? shall every private man, or rather such as have the chief care and government of the Church? This is a rule prescribed by the Apostle to the Church, whereby she must direct her orders and government, not to every privato person to pick a quarrel to disquiet the Church. The third. 1. Cor. 14. that all be done to edifying. This sentence can not be applied ge nerally to all things used in the Church, if we truly interpret the meaning of the Apostle, but to the gift of tongues, to prayers, and to prophecies, whereof he hath made mention before. Neither can I perceive that any learned Interpreter doth take it as a general rule for all rites and ceremonies, but only for the exercises of Praying, singing of Psalms, interpreting, and Prophesying. For of things used in the Church, some pertain to instruction, and some to order and comeliness. For the first he giveth this rule, Letal things be done to edifying. For both the first and the second he giveth this, Omnia decenter. etc. Let all things be done decently and in order. Although those ceremonies and rites which are appointed by the Church for order and comeliness, do edify In the treatise of appare tract. 7. as Ceremonies, that is, not of themselves, but per accidens, accidentally, as I have in an other place declared It is sufficient if the Governors of the Church, and such as have authority to ordain such rites, do think them to be profitable in the respect of the time, person, and place: neither must every private man's judgement in this case be respected, as it is well set down by the Articles agreed upon by the dutch Church in London, allowed by M. Beza, and by divers other reform Churches. It is the third article: Quid porrò ad aedificationem faciat. etc. Moreover Theses Ecclesia Belgio-germanicae. arti. 3. what is profitable to edify, and what is not, is not to be determined by the judgement of the common people, nor of some on man, nor yet by the issue of men's actions. etc. I can net understand out of what part of the. 14. to the Romans, your last The last rule pertaineth no more to ceremonies than to other actions. rule is taken, except it be the sixt, seven, or eight verses, out of the which I would gladly know how you can derive any rule to frame ceremonies by, rather than all other actions of man whatsoever. These be your rules to square by, and truly we refuse them not, though some of them pertain nothing to your purpose. The Dutch Church and the other Churches in the. 11. of those articles before mentioned, touching commanding or forbidding indifferent things, determine thus. Qui propter aliam rationem. etc. They which for any other cause either command or forbidden at their pleasure, the free use of indifferent things, then for one Theses Eccles. Belg. art. 11. of these three, that is neither for edifying, nor for policy, nor ecclesiastical order, & especially those which do rashly judge other men's consciences in these matters, offend heynonsly against god, & against their neighbours. Whereby they seem to allow any order taken in indifferent things, if it tend either to edifying, or policy, or ecclesiastical order. But to return to your Reply: that which you speak of hour, time, & day of prayer. etc. justify my saying: for they be not expressed in the scripture, as you also now affirm, but left to the ordering (not of every private man) but of the Church, or such as have the chief care and government of the same, to appoint as they shall think most convenient and agreeable to the general rules given in the scripture for that purpose. Neither is this contrary to any thing that I have written. But both in this and that also which immediately followeth, you are contrary to yourself, and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition, T. C. is contrary to himself and to the Admonition, and agreeth with the answer. As by conference may appear: for these be your own words, Whereby it likewise appeareth, that we deny not but certain things are left to the order of the Church, because they are of that nature which are varied by times, places, people, & other circumstances, and so could not at once be set down and established for ever. And yet so left to the order of the Church, as that it do nothing against the rules aforesaid. What doth this differ from these words of mine: It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies, order, discipline, or government of the Church is to be suffered against the word of God? and to this end do all those authorities and places tend, that I have alleged for this matter. So that either you understand not me, or not yourself, or else your quarrel is against the person, not the cause. The admonition in this point you defend not: for it sayeth directly, that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19 God's Church, which the Lord himself in his word commandeth. And although peradventure you will shift this off, by saying that they mean such things only as be commanded either generally or specially, yet the whole discourse of their book declareth, that their meaning is, that nothing aught to be placed in the Church which is not specially commanded in the word of God. But seeing you and I agree in this, that the Church hath authority to ordain ceremonies and make Orders, which are not expressed in the word of God, it remaineth to be considered wherein we differ: which is (as I think) in this, that I say, the Church of England hath lawfully used her authority, in such ceremonies & orders, as she hath appointed, & now retaineth, and you deny the same: so that your controversy is against the Church of England, and the Ceremonies and orders used therein. And therefore you add and say, but how doth this follow, that certain things are left to the order of the Church, therefore to make a new ministery. etc. Whereby you give us to understand, that the things you mislike in this Church, are the office and name of an Archbishop, which you untruly call a new ministery, (as it is by me declared in my answer to the Admonition) our ministery, the government of our Church, and (as you say) other more, that is, all things at your pleasure. But how justly and truly this is spoken, shall appear in their proper places. In the mean time it is sufficient to tell you, that you are an unworthy member of this Church, which so unjustly report of it, so unchristianly slander it, and so without grounds and sound proofs condemn it. There is nothing by it, or in it altered, which God hath ordained and established, not to be altered. Chap. 1. the sixth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. & Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time, wherein or when the lords Supper should be celebrated, neither yet in what manner. The Scripture hath not appointed what time, or where the congregation shall meet for common Prayer, and for the hearing of the word of God, neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemn the same. The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the week, should be most meet for the Saboth day, whither Saturday, which is the jews Saboth, or the day now observed, which was appointed by the Church. The Scripture hath not determined what form is to be us d in matrimony, what words, what prayers, what exhortations. The Scripture speaketh not one word of standing, sitting or kneeling at the Communion, of meeting in Churches, fields, or houses, to hear the word of God: of preaching in pulpits, chairs, or otherwise: of baptizing in fontes, in basins, or rivers: openly or privately, at home, or in the Church, every day in the week, or on the Sabaoth day only. And yet no man (as I suppose) is so simple to think that the Church hath no authority to take order in these matters. T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. ult. & Pag. 16. Sect. 1 But while you go about to seem to say much, and rake up a great number of things, you have made very evil meslyn, and you have put, in one, things which are not pairs nor matches. Because I will not draw the Reader willingly into more questions than are already put up, I will not stand to dispute, whether the lords day (which we call Sunday) being the day of the Resurrection of our Saviour Christ, and so the day wherein the world was renewed: as the jews Sabbath was the day wherein the world was finished, and being in all the Churches in the Apostles times (as it seemeth) used for the day of the rest and serving of God, aught or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say, that there was no (a) It is less true dealing for you to charge men widow 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey have not affir ed. great judgement to make it as arbitrary and changeable, as the hour and the place of prayer. But where was pour judgement, when you written that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shall contemn the common prayers, and hearing the word of God? what Church discipline would you have other than admonitions reprehensions, and if these will not profit excommunication? and are they not appointed of our Saviour Christ (b) Scriptures unskilfully alleged. Math. 18? There are also civil punishments, and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the word of God in divers places (b) Scriptures unskilfully alleged. in the. 22. of Exodus. He that sacrificeth to other gods, & not to the Lord, alone, shall die the death. And in the (b) Scriptures unskilfully alleged. 19 of deuteronomy. Thou shalt turn out the evil out of the midst of thee, that the rest may ear and fear, and not dare do the like. The execution of this law appeareth in the (b) Scriptures unskilfully alleged. 15. . 2. Chro. by king Aza, who made alawe that all those that did not seek the Lord, should be killed. And thus you see the civil punishment of contemners of the word and prayers. There are other for such as neglect the word, which are according to the quantity of the fault: so that whether you mean civil or Ecciesiasticall correction, the scripture (c) Or else you are deceived. hath defined of them both. Io. Whitgifte. Out of all these things which I say the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed, T. C. seeketh quarrels where none are offered. you choose to carp at first, The lords day, which we call Sunday, and you say, that you will not dispute whether it aught or may be changed or no: when as you should rather have proved it, to be appointed by the scriptures (which no doubt you would have done if you could) for that is it which I deny. Where have you heard me say, that it may or aught to be altered? if you will confute, confute that which I have set down and affirm, not that which it pleaseth you to imagine. In good sooth, this is no true dealing. Not marvel it is that you have not set down my book, seeing you deal thus corruptely with it. I do not think that The determination of the church aught not lightly to be altered. that which the Church hath once determined, and by long continuance proved to be necessary, aught to be altered, without great and especial consideration. I say with Saint Augustin Epist. 118. ad januar. If any thing be universally observed of the whole Church, not to observe that, or to call it into question, is mere madness, therefore, Aug. ep. 118. seeing that it hath had such time of continuance, that it was for so good and just causes appointed, and is so generally observed of the Church, I do not think it now arbitrary, nor to be changed: much less do I make it as arbitrary or changeable as the place and hour of prayer, which may be divers in divers churches, and it is among those rites and orders that be diversly observed in divers places, whereof also August. maketh mention in that Epistle. Surely as there had been little judgement in me, if I had made it changeable, so is there small honesty in you to altar my words, and to falsify my meaning. Secondly, you mislike that I should say, The scripture not to have appointed discipline or correction, for such as shall contemn the common Prayers, and hearing the word of God. And you ask me where my judgement was? but I have more cause to deiliaulide of you, where that learning and skill Scriptures unskilfully alleged by T. C. is which you so much brag of, seeing that you so unskilfully allege the Scriptures against their true meaning and sense? For where have you learned that Christ in the. 18. of Matthew doth appoint any general rule for public offences, such as negligence, and contempt in frequenting public Prayers, and hearing of the word of God is? The very words of Christ, If thy brother trespass agay against thee etc. do teeth Math. 18. that he means not there of open and known, but of secret and particular sins. The which thing also the note that is in the margin of the Bible printed at Geneva, might have taught you, if you had been as well disposed to have followed the same in this place, as you seem to have done in other places. M. Caluine in his book against the Anabap. reproving them for using this place to the establishing of their kind of discipline by excommunication, saith on this sort: They are again deceived, Calvin. adver. Anabap. in that they consider not that the Lord speaketh in that place of secret faults: for as for those, which are manifest and give unto the people cause of offence, they are to be corrected by other means than by secret admonitions. You must therefore seek for some other place than this, if you will prove that the Scripture hath appointed any discipline and correction for such as shall contemn the Common Prayers, and hearing of the word. To prove that there are also civil punishments, and punishments of the body for contemning common prayers, and hearing of the word, appointed by the word of God, you cite 22. of Exodus. 19 of Deuteronomie etc. But before I come to the answering of these places, I pray you let me ask of you these questions. First, whether you would have both Ecclesiastical & civil punishment for the self same fault? Secondly, whether you would have negligence or contempt in frequenting of common prayers & hearing of the word, punished with death or no? for that punishment is appointed in those places by you alleged. Last of all, whether you think the judicial laws to be perpetual, & to bind the civil Magistrate to the observing of them, & to restrain him from making any other, The unaptness of the proofs of T. C. as shall be thought to him most convenient? for except you will have two kinds of punishments for one and the self same offence: except you will punish with death such as be negligent in coming to public prayers: to be short, except you will have the civil Magistrate bond of necessity to practise these judicial laws of Moses, (which in deed you affirm afterwards in your book) those places make nothing for your purpose. So that you are yet as far to seek for Scripture, that appointeth any certain kind of discipline for these matters, as ever you were. But that it may be understood how unreasonably you wring & wrist the scriptures, so make them serve your turn, I will in one word or two declare the meaning of those places, and set open the might of your arguments. In the. 22. of Exodus the place by you alleged, the punishment of death is appointed Exod. 22. for Idolaters, whereupon you would ground this argument. God in the. 22. of Exodus appointeth death as a punishment for Idolaters, Ergo the word of God appointeth a certain kind of punishment for such as be negligent in frequenting public prayers, and contemn the hearing of the word. I say there is no sequel in this argument, unless you will make all those that be negligent in coming to public prayers, and contemn to hear the word Idolaters, and this to be a perpetual law. In the 19 of Deuteronomie there is nothing tending to any such purpose, only in the Deut. 19 latter end of the chapter, there is a punishment appointed for him that beareth false witness, whereupon these words, so thou shalt take evil away from the midst of thee etc. by you here alleged, do follow. Now if you will thus conclude, God in the. 19 of deuteronomy appointeth a punishment for a false witness: Ergo, the scripture hath appointed discipline for such as neglect to come to public prayers. etc. then indeed you may prove any thing, & it is but in vain to strine with you. But Lord what gibing & flouting would there be, if I should bappen to fall into so manifest & open absurdities. In the. 2. Chro. 15. Aza made the same punishment for Idolatry, that is mentioned 2▪ Chro 1 . in the. 22. of Exo. and therefore the same answer serveth that place. Truly I think you take yourself to have free liberty to apply the scriptures at your pleasure, else would you never thus abuse them without all judgement or reason. What I think of the necessity or continuance of these laws, I will declare in a T. C. triumpheth before the victoris. more special place: In the mean time, you blow the triumph before the victory: for as yet, you have not proved that the scripture doth appoint any certain kind either of civil punishment or Church discipline for such as contemn or neglect the coming to public prayers, and hearing of the word of God. You say that there are other punishments for such as neglect the word of God. etc. but you neither tell us what they be, nor where to found them. Chapter. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 16. Sect. 1. line. 3. I omit that there be examples of Pulpits in Esdras, of chairs in the. 23. of Math. whereby the chair of Moses our saviour Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses, doth also declare the manner which they used in teaching: of sitting at the Communion (which the Evangelist noteth to have been done of our favioure Christ with his disciples) which examples are not to be lightly changed, and upon many occasions. Io. Whitgifte. Examples of Pulpits you say, we found in Esdras. True it is that in the. 8. of Nehem. we read Esdras stood upon a Pulpit of wood, which he had made for the preaching, but the same was placed in the open street, neither did Esdras any thing but read. The other people with the Levites mentioned vers. 7. of that Chap. did 'cause the people to understand the law: that is, made them give diligent ear to the reading of the law. And although there be words in the. 8. verse, which (as they be translated) seem to insinuate some kind of interpretation, yet the meaning is nothing so: for these be the words, Et apposuerunt intellectum, & intellexerunt scripturam illam, that is (as learned men do interpret it) adverterunt animum, they were attentive to the reading, or Nebem. 8. as some translate it, Et legerunt in libro legis Dei distinctè & appositè ad intelligendum: & intellexerunt cum legeretur, And they read in the book of the law of God, distinctly and in such sort, as they might easily understand. Hereof may I much better gather that reading is preaching, than you can do that the scripture appointeth Pulpits. For though Esdras did so, is it therefore by and by a rule to be followed? You read not of any of the Apostles that did in like manner, neither is there any mention made of Pulpits, from the beginning of the new testament to the end of the same. And this place maketh rather for Pulpits to read in, than for Pulpits to preach in. It is most certain that by the chair of Moses in that place, is meant the doctrine of Moses, whether it declare any place or no made for Moses to teach the people in, that is but conjectural: neither have we any example expressed either in Moses himself, or in any other that may resolve that doubt. Howsoever it is, the matter is not great. For things used in the old Church do not prescribe any rule to the Church of Christ, unless it can be showed Christ himself and his Apostles to have used the same. My meaning is that in the whole scripture, there is neither Pulpit nor chair prescribed to be used in the Church of Christ, but that and such other like things left to the disposition of the Church, as shall be thought most convenient from time to time. What though Christ sat at his last supper, doth it therefore follow that of necessity we must needs sit? why must we not then as well be bond to receive the same after supper? I say again that the scripture doth nowhere prescribe, whither we shall sit, stand, or kneel, at the communion: if it do prescribe sitting why do some of you use walking, othersome standing, which both do more differ from sitting than kneeling doth. Chap. 1. The eight Division. T. C. Page. 16. Sect. 2. &. 3. But this I cannot omit, that you make it an indifferent thing to preach the word of God in Churches or in houses, that is to say, privately or publicly. For what better interpretation can I have than of your own words, which says by and by after, of Baptism, that it is (a) An untruth, for there is no such thing said. at the order of the Church, to make it private or public. For if it be in the power of the Church to order that Baptis e may be ministered at the house of every private person, it is also in her power to ordain that the word be preached also privately. And then where is that which Solomon says that (b) A place of scripture strange lv applied. wisdom crieth openly and in the streets, and at the corners of the streets where many ieete? and where be the examples of the old Church, which had besides the Temple at jerusalem, erected up Synagogues in every town to hear the word of God, & minister the circumcision? (c) These places prove that the word aught to be preached publicly, but not only publicly. what is become of the commandment of our saviour Christ, which willed his disciples that they should preach openly, and upon the house tops, that which they hard in the ear of him and secretly? and how do we observe the example of our saviour Christ, who to deliver his doctrine from all suspicion of tumults and other disorders, said that he preached openly in the temple, and in the Synagogues, albeit the same were very dangerous unto him? and the example of the Apostles that did the sa ie? for as for the time of persecution, when the Church dare not, nor it is not meet, that it should show itself to the enemy, not not then is the word of God nor the sacraments privately preached or ministered, nor aught to be. For although they be done in the house of a private man, yet because they are and aught to be ministered in the presence of the congregation, there is neither private preaching, nor private baptism. For like as wheresoever the Queen's majesty lieth there is the Court, although it be in a gentleman his house, so wheresoever the Church meeteth, it is not to be held private as touching the prayers, preachings, and sacraments, that shall be there ministered: so that I deny unto you that the Church hath power to ordain at her pleasure, whither preaching or ministering of Sacraments should be private or public, when they aught not to be, but where the Church is, and the Church (d) This is only said, but not proved. aught not to assemble (if it be not letteed by persecution) but in open places: and when it is driven from them, those places where it gathereth itself together, although they be otherwise private, yet are they for the time that the Churches do there assemble, and for respect of the word and sacraments, that are there ministered in the presence of the Church, public places. And so you see those (whom you charge slanderously with conviuticles) are fain to glaze up the windows that you open to secret and private conventicles. Io. Whitgifte. But this you cannot omit, that I make it an indifferent thing to preach the word of God in Churches or in houses. etc. it is an argument that you lack good matter, when you make such excursions from the purpose. My words be, that the scriptures speak not one word of meeting in Churches, fields, or houses too hear the word of God, of baptizing in fonts, in basins, or rivets, openly or privately, at home or in the Church. etc. If I have said untruly, convince me with scripture, and show me those places, where these things be determined. Where do I say that these things be now indifferent? to have the word preached is not indifferent but necessary, to have it preached in this place or in that place, in Churches, in fields, or in houses, is indifferent, until such time as the Church Things indifferent loose the nature of iudifferencie when they are commanded. hath otherwise determined. So is it likewise in baptism, the sacrament is necessary, the circumstances of time and place. etc. be committed to the disposition of the Church, and remain so long indifferent, until the Church hath taken order in them: which being done, than they be no more indifferent. Do you not know that, whereunto so many Churches reform, and learned men have of late subscribed? it is the. 6. assertion. Res alioqui per se mediae, mutant quodammodò nature m. etc. Things otherwise Theses eccles. Belgio. art. 6. indifferent of themselves, after a sort change their nature, when by some lawful commandment, they are either commanded, or forbidden, because neither then can be omitted contrary to the commandment, if they are once commanded, neither done contrary to prohibition if they be prohibited, as it appeareth in the ceremonial law. The place is not of the substance either of the word or of the sacraments: but yet to contemn or willingly to break the order appointed by the Church in such matters, is sin. You say that I affirm it to be at the order of the Church, to make baptism private or public. Surely you do me great injury, and win yourself small credit by this T. C. perverteth the words of the Answer kind of dealing. Is it all one to say, that the scripture hath not determined whether baptism should be ministered openly or privately, at home or in the Church, and to say, that the Church may make baptism private or public? For hereby you would give your readers to understand, that I think it in the power of the Church to appoint that there should be no public baptism, wherein (as I said) you do me great injury. My words therefore and meaning tend to this end, that the scripture hath not any where expressed when baptism should be celebrated publicly, when privately: but hath left that to the determination of the Church, to do therein according to the circumstances of time, person. etc. Neither do I call baptism private in any other Baptism is called pr ce in respec of the place. respect than of the place: and therefore my meaning is, that the scripture hath not determined where, or when we should baptize, at home in private families, or in public and open places, as fields, Churches, etc. For we have examples in scripture both of baptizing in houses, and of baptizing in fields. Act. 8. 9 10. &. 26. Therefore touching the place, the scripture hath not determined any thing, and in the respect of the place I call it public or private: although I see nothing in the scripture to the contrary, but upon necessary occasion, and other circumstances it may be private in the respect of people, that be present at the celebrating of baptism: for the number of standers by or of such as are to be baptized, is not of the substance of the sacrament, therefore in that also the Church may take order and hath therein to deal. And as I think, that in such respects baptism may be privately administered, so The word may be preached privately both in razors pect of the place and people. think I also that in the like respects the word may be privately preached. Neither did the Apostles only preach in the Synagogues, and in open places, but in private families and houses also, as it is manifest. Act. 5. Where it is said that the Apostles did not cease daily to teach and to preach jesus Christ in the temple, and house by house. Act. Act. 5. 10. Peter preached in Cornelius his house. &. Acts. 16. Paul preached in prison. And Act. 10. not only was the word preached privately in respect of the place▪ but sometimes also Act. 6. in the respect of the people, as Christ preached to the woman of Samaria alone. Io 4. Io. 4. And Philip in the chariot to the Eunuch. Act. 8. Act. 8. Your scriptures brought in to prove that there may be no private preaching, are very far fetched, and some of them very strangely applied. That which Solomon says Proverb. 8. proveth that God calleth all men by his word and by his works, to follow that which is good, and fly from that which is evil. And I think that the meaning of Solomon in that place is that God doth offer his word to all people, in all places, so that there can be no ignorance pretended. But I pray you, how doth this argument follow, the word of God is offered to all, and openly proclaimed: Ergo it may not be also privately taught? all your proofs and examples that follow, be of like effect: they prove that the word of God aught publicly to be preached, but they do not take away private exhortations and preachings. It is true that both Christ and his Apostles taught in Smagogues, so it is true also that they taught in private families, as I have declared: but yet I say, the scripture hath not appointed any certain place of preaching. For Esdras read the law in the streets, Nehem. 8. wisdom crieth in the tops Nehem. 8. of the high places by the way side in the paths, in the gates before the City. Pro. 8. Christ Pro. 8. preached in the Mountain Math. 5. in the Synagogue, Math. 4. the Apostles in the Math. 5. temple, and in private families: do not you therefore see, that there is no determinationof Math. 4. any place? wherefore the aptness of the place, and the conveniency of it: likewise Act. 5. when the word is to be preached publicly, when privately, is left to the judgement and ordering of the Church. And therefore it is true that I have set down, that the scripture hath not dermined any thing of meeting in Churches, fields or houses to hear the word of God: or of preaching in Pulpits, chairs, or otherwise. There are and may be occasions, even in the time of prosperity, when both the word may be preached, and the Sacraments administered in private families, so that they be done according to the order of the Church, and not in the contempt of common and public assemblies. And I think that such noble men and gentlemen as upon oceasion either of infirmity of body, or of distance of place, or some other urgent cause, have the word of God preached in their private families, and the Sacraments ministered according to the order of the Church, are greatly to be commended. Neither doth this open any window, to secret and schismatical conventicles, (such I mean as seek corners) because they will not keep the orders & laws of the Church, but contemn the same, and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions. In the which number those be, whom I have truly charged with conventicles, for they despising the order of the Church, have wickedly separated themselves from the same, whose opinions notwithstanding you maintain, although you would seem to condemn their conventicles. But it may be that you count this time to be a time of persecution, and so excuse their doings. To be short, when I speak either of private preaching or of private ministering the sacraments, I mean it especially in respect of the place, and not in the respect of any schismatical separation: so that hitherto you have said nothing, that impugneth any thing that I have written. Neither have I spoken any otherwise in all these things, than other learned and godly men have done, as it is to be seen by all their several authorities, which I have in their places set down. Chapter. 1. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what meant Saint Paul in. 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certain orders unto them to be observed in the Church, thus generally to conclude, Omnia decenter & ordine fiant. Let all things be done decently and in order. Doth he not there give unto them authority to make orders in the Church, so that all things be done in order and decently? The best interpreters do understand this as a general rule given unto the Church to examine her traditions and constitutions by: And therefore without all doubt their judgement is, that the Church hath authority in external things, to make orders, and appoint laws not expressed in the word of God, so that this rule of the Apostle be observed. Io. Whitgifte. Here have you not answered one word to that which I have alleged out of the The ground of the assertion unanswered by. T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my general assertion in this point, nor to the interpretation of it: that therefore being granted, the rest must needs stand in full force, that is, that the scripture hath left many things to the discretion of the Church. The opinion of ancient fathers and Councils of things indifferent. Chap. 2. the first Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly counsels, or ancient fathers were any thing Ancient fathers of things indifferent. at all regarded of these men (as they be not, such is their arrogancy) this controversy might soon be decided. For the most ancient fathers and best learned, as justinus Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and other, do expressly declare that even from the Apostles time, the Church hath always had authority in such matters, and hath observed divers orders and ceremonies, not once mentioned in the word of God. T. C. Page. 16. Sect. 3 &. Page. 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are brought in justin Martyr, Ireneus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and councils as (a) Wilful ignorance, for you know very well that every one of them greatly favoureth this cause. dumb people in the stage only to make a show, and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing. And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controversy, there is no doubt but M. Doctor would have made them speak. For when he placeth the greatest strength of his cause in antiquity, he would not have passed by justin, Ireneus, Tertullian, Cyprian, being so ancient, and taken Augustine which was a great time after them. And if the godly counsels could have helped here, it is small wisdom to take Augustine, and leave them. For I think he might have learned that amongst the authorities of men, the credit of many be better than of one: and that this is a general rule, that as the judgement of some notable parsonage is looked unto in a matter that is debated, more than there's of the common sort, so the judgement of a counsel, where many learned men be gathered together carrieth more likelihood of truth with it, than the judgement of one man, although it be but a provincial counsel, much more than if it be general, & therefore you do your cause great injury, if you could allege them, and do not. This is once to be observed of the reader throughout your whole book, that you have well provided that you should not be taken in the trip, for misaledging the scriptures, for that unless it be in (b) More scriptures than you, and something better applied. one or two points we hear continually (in stead of Esay, and jerenty. S. Paul, and S. Peter, and the rest of the And as we say in our tongue, ettles among roses. Prophets and Apostles, S. Augustine, and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Dionysius Areopagita, Clement. etc. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papists from their antiquity, counsels and fathers to the trial of the scriptures, which in the controversies which rise amongst ourselves, fly so far from them, that it wanteth not much, that they are not banished of your part, from the deciding of all these controversies. And if this be a sufficient proof of things to say (c) A better proof, than to say, I say so, as you commonly use to do. such a doctor said so, such a council decreed so, there is almost nothing so true but I can impugn, nothing so false, but I can make true: And well assured I am, that by their means, the principal grounds of our faith may be shaken. And therefore because you have (d) Petitio principij. no proofein the word of God, we comfort ourselves, assured, that for so much as the foundations of the Archbishop, and Lordship of Bishops and of other things, which are in question be not in heaven, that they will fall and come to the ground, from whence they were taken. Now it is known they are from beneath and of the earth, and that they are of men and not of God. Io. Whitgifte. Here are many words which might well have been spared, but that you are desirous Sect. 1 to have your modest speeches known to the world. In the. 25. page I have told you where some of these dumb people speak their parts, but you are blind when you should see, and deaf when you should hear that which you would not gladly see or here. I told you there, that justinus Martyr speaketh of this matter in his second Apology, and in his book of questions, and that Tertullian speaketh of the same in his book de corona militis. It hath pleased you in that which followeth to Neither dumb nor speaking people can please T. C. reprove me for translating into my book other men's opinions, and authorities, and here though I have quoted the places where you may found them, yet is it also your pleasure to spend your gibing and jesting eloquence upon me for not translating them. Well I will deceive your expectation, and make them speak. justinus Martyr in his second Apology saith that they used in baptizing to call upon the name of God for such as were baptized, and after baptism to carry him that was baptized justin. Apo. 2. to the place, where the brethren be gathered together, to pray both for themselves, and for him also that is baptized, and in the end of their prayers that they salute one another with a kiss. Likewise he there saith, that when they celebrated the Ibidem. lords supper, there was used certain prayers, and thanksgiving to the which the people said Amen. Also that the Deacons did give to the people the bread and the cup, and carry them likewise to such as were absent. In his book of questions, justin. lib. quae. he showeth how that singing was used in the Church, and commends it, and that they used not to kneel at prayers on the Sunday, in token of the resurrection. divers other such ceremonies and orders doth he recite, used in his time, not prescribed by the word of God, but appointed by the Church, whereof some now be abrogated, because they be not so fit for this time, as they were for that time. Irenaeus speaketh very plainly in that Epistle which he writ to Irenaeus. Victor bishop of Rome, whereof also Eusebius maketh mention lib. 5. cap. 25. &. 26. In that Epistle he declareth the diversity of divers Churches for the day of Easter, the time of fasting, and such like: which plainly argueth that the scripture hath not determined all things, but left much to the disposition of the Church. Tertullian in his book adversus Praxean. saith that the Church than used tern Tertul. Idem. mersione in baptismo, thirst dipping in baptism. And in his book de corona militis, although he recite some things which in time grew to be superstitious, yet doth he there plainly declare, what his opinion is in this matter, he reciteth divers customs of the Church then used, whereof there is no mention in the scriptures: he declareth that those which were to be baptized, must first profess that they renounced the Devil, his pomp, and his Angels, and that then they were thrice dipped in the water, amplius aliquid respondentes quam dominus in evangelio determinavit: answering somewhat more than the Lord hath determined in the gospel. Likewise he showeth, that the sacrament of the supper, which the Lord celebrated at supper, and commanded to all, was then celebrated in the morning, and ministered only by those that be the chief. And in the end he saith barum & aliarum buiusmodi disciplinarum si legem expostules scripturarum, nullam invenies. etc. of these and such like orders, if thou shouldst require a law out of the scriptures, thou shalt find none, and a little after he addeth, Anon putas omni fideli licere concipere & constituere duntaxat quod Deo congruat, quod disciplinae conducat, quod Saluti proficiat, dicente domino? Cur autem non & a vobis ipsis quod justum est iudicatis? dost thou not think that it is lawful for every faithful man, to conceive and appoint at the lest that which agreeth to God, which is convenient for discipline, which is profitable unto salvation, seeing the Lord saith, why do you not of yourselves judge that that is right? And in his book De virginibus Veland. He hath these manifest words. Regula Idem. quidem fidei una omninò est, sola immobilis & irreformabilis, credendi scilicet in Deum, unicum ☞ omnipotentem. etc. Hac lege fidei manente, caetera iam disciplinae & conversationis admittunt novitatem correctionis, operant scilicet & proficiente usque in fivem gratia Dei. There is only one rule of faith, which alone is immovable, and not to be altered, to wit, to believe in one God the omnipotent creator of the world and in his son jesus Christ born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, risen the third day from the dead, received into Heaven, sitting now at the right hand of the father, and shall come to judge the quick and the dead, by resurrection of the flesh: this law of faith remaining, the other things of discipline, and trade of life, do admit alteration of amendment, the grace of GOD working and profiting too the end. Cyprian Lib. 10. Epist. 12. mentioneth certain rites about Baptism, no where spoken of in the Scriptures: and Lib. 4. Epist. 6. he showeth it to have been the manner of the Church then, to receive the Communion every day, which the Scripture doth not command. Cyprian. Idem. Thus you see that these Doctors be not dumb, but can speak sufficiently in that matter for the which they are alleged. And least you should cavil because I say that others also be of the same judgement, reciting only saint augustine, I have caused Ambrose, Jerome, and basil to bear witness in the same matter. The words of Ambrose be these, After that Churches were appointed in every place, Ambrose in . Ephe. and offices ordained, the matter began otherwise to be ordered. etc. And after that he had declared the difference betwixt the Apostolical Church, and the Church in his time touching Ceremonies and government he concludeth thus. Therefore ☜ do not the writyngs of the Apostles in all respects agreed, with the order which is now in the Church, because these were written in the first beginnings. Jerome writing ad Jerome . Lucinium, and answering his questions touching fasting on the Sabbath day, and daily receiving the Communion, saith on this sort, sed ego illud te breviter admonendum puto, traditiones ecclesiasticas (presertim quae fidei non officiant) ita obseruandas, ut à maioribus traditae sunt. Nec aliorum consuetudinem, aliorum contrario modo subverti. But this thing I think meet briefly to admonish thee of, that the Ecclesiastical traditions (namely such as do not hinder faith) are so to be observed as they are delivered of our elders, neither is the custom of one to be overthrown with the contrary custom of others. basil in his. 63. Epistle written to the Ministers of Neocaesaria, reciteth the manners basil. and Customs about public prayers and singing of Psalms then used in the Church, and there plainly declareth what his judgement is touching this question. I omit that which he speaketh of this matter in his book de sancto spiritu, Idem. where although he giveth too much authority to unwritten traditions, yet doth it there appear, that many things were then used in the Church of Christ, which were not expressed in the word of God. I might here allege Socrates, who Socrates. in his five Book and. 22. Chapter of his ecclesiastical history handleth this matter at large: and speaking of Easter he saith, The Apostle and the Gospel do in no place say a bond of servitude upon them, which come to the preaching, But men themselves have every one, according as they thought meet, in their countries celebrated of custom the feast of Easter, and other feasts for the resting from labour, and the remembrance of the healthful passion. etc. and in the same Chapter: No Religion observeth the same rites, although it embrace the same doctrine of them, for they do differ among themselves in rites, which are of the same faith. And so he proceedeth in declaring the variety of Ceremonies and other observances and rites in the Churches, whereby it is manifest that (by his Judgement) many things are committed to the disposition of the Church, which are not expressed in the word of God. And that the Church hath used this liberty from time to time, to the same effect speaketh Sozome. Lib. 7. Cap. 19 They (he means Policarpus and Victor) thought Sozome. it folly, (and not without cause) to be separated one from another for Ceremonies or Customs, which did agreed in the principal points of Religion, for you can not find the same rites, and altogether like in all Churches, not though they do agreed together. I might pester this Book (and that you know well enough) with the judgement of all the ancient Fathers, that have any occasion to speak of this matter, but these may suffice to declare that I have not vainly used their names, for mutes on the stage. Touching Counsels, I marvel you will make any doubt of them, whereunto Counsels of things indifferent. tend the most of their Canons, in matters of Ceremonies, and government of the Church, but to teach that the Scriptures have not expressed all things concerning the same, but left them to the order and appointment of the Church? I pray you where shall you find in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani: Conci. de vicarijs Episcoporum & eorum potestate? or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum . ecclesiastica iura vendere: and diverse others in the same Council? or the. 11. Canon Council. Nencaes. Nicaenum . Neocaesari. of the certain age of him that aught to be minister? or the. 1. Canon Council Nicaeni: of Enuches? the fourth of ordering bishops? the sixte of Metropolitans? the seventh of the Bishop of jerusalem? the twentieth of standing in the time of Prayer? or the. 7. Canon Concil. Gangrene or the. 18. or. 20. or ye.. 11. 15. 18. 19 etc. Concil. Arelatens. Gangrense. Arelatens. But what should I trouble the reader with such particular rehearsals, of so many Counsels, which have made such a number of Canons concerning such matters, as must be ordered in the Church, whereof the Scripture hath particularly determined nothing? is it not therefore manifest that Counsels both general and provincial, by their acts declare, that touching Cer moneys, discipline, and government of the Church, many things are left to the discretion of the Church, which be not expressed in the Scriptures? And whereas you charge me for not alleging of Scriptures, if I would Scriptures of things indifferent. without discretion city places, nothing pertaining to the purpose, as you hitherto have done, I could use a number: but I had rather have one text to my purpose, than a hundred wrong and wrested as yours be. howbeit, there is no cause why you should as yet complain, for hitherto I have alleged more than you have answered. To the. 1. Cor. 14. (as yet unanswered) I may join that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle saith. 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis. You keep the ordinances as I delivered them to you. The which words Master Caluine expounding saith on this sort, I do not deny but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine. not written, but I do not grant them to have been taken as parts of doctrine, or necessary unto salvation. What then? even such as did pertain to order and policy. For we know that every Church hath liberty to ordain and appoint such a form of government, as is apt and profitable for it, because the Lord therein hath prescribed no certainty. So Paul the first founder of the Church of Corinthe, did also frame it, with honest and godly institutions, that all things might there be done decently▪ and in order. And that also which is in the end of the Chapter: Other things will I set in order when I come. Whereupon the same Master 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine . Caluine saith, But let such toys pass, seeing that it is certain that Paul speaketh but of external comeliness, the which as it is put in the liberty of the Church, so it is to be appointed according to the time, places, and people. In deed I glory not in words so much of the Scriptures as you d'ye, but I trust that I have as sure ground there for any thing that I have affirmed, as you have, and much more, else would I be sorry. It is not beasting of the Scriptures in words, and falsely applying of them, that can carry away the matter with those that be learned and wise, you know what Master Caluine saith of the Anabaptists in his Book written against them, Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Calvin adversus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists always pretended the word of God. Christiani. etc. But because the woeful Christians, which with a zeal do follow God, can not by any other more notable show be seduced, than when the word of God is pretended: the Anabaptistes (against whom we writ) have that evermore in their mouth, and always talk of it. And yet in lawful matters, not expressed in the Scriptures, I know not to whom we should resort to know the use and antiquity of them, but to the Counsels, stories, and doctors. The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent. Chap. 3. the first Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 23. Sect. 1 That notable learned Father Augustine hath diverse sayings Augustin . touching this matter worthy to be noted. In his Epistle ad Casulanum. 86. he saith thus, In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura divina, mos populi Dei, vel instituta maiorum, pro lege tenenda sunt, in those things wherein the holy Scripture hath determined no certainty, the custom of the people of God, & the traditions or decrees of our forefathers, are to be held for a law. Whereby it is manifest, that those things may be retained in the Church which are not expressed in the Scripture. In the same Epistle he reporteth the answer that Ambrose made unto him, being demanded whether it were lawful to fast on the Sabbath day, or not to fast, seeing that among the Churches there was some diversity in this poyut. Quando bic sum, saith he, non ie uno Idem. Sabbato, quando Romae sum, ieiuno Sabbato, & ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis, eius morem seruate, si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere. When I am here, I fast not on the Sabbath, when I am at Rome, I do fast on the Sabbath, and to what Church so ever you come, keep the custom thereof, if you will neither suffer offence nor give offence. The whole Epistle is worthy of reading. T. C. Page. 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth about to prove, that they came yet out of good earth, and from good men, which if he had obtained, yet he may well know, that it is no good argument to prove that they are good. For (*) A true sayings, but not truly applied. as the best earth bringeth forth weeds, so do the best men bring forthlyes and errors. But let us hear what is brought , that if this visard and show of truth be taken away, all men may perceive, how good occasion we have to complain, and how just cause there is of reformation. In the first place of Saint Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we hold, for that, that the Church may have things not expressed in, the scripture, is not (a) But it is against that, that nothing should be placed in the Church which God in his word hath not commanded: and therefore you do here but shift of the controversy against, that it aught to have nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture. For they may be according to the scripture, and by the Scripture, which are not by plain ter es expressed in the Scripture. But against you it▪ maketh much, and overturneth all your building in this book. For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture, they are to be observed of the Church, which are the customs of the people of God, and the decrees of our forefathers, then how can these things be varied according to time, place, and people, (which you say should be) when as that is to be retained, which the people of God hath used, and the decrees of the forefathers have ordained. And then also how can we do safelier, than to follow the Apostles customs and the Churches in their time, which we are sure are our forefathers, and the people of God. Besides that, how can we retain the customs and constitutions of the Papists in such things, which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers. I will not enter now to discuss, whether it were well done to fast in all places, according to the custom of the place. You (b) Untruth, proceeding of Ignorance. oppose Ambrose and Augustine: I could oppose Ignatius & Tertullian Tertul. de cor. milit. Ignat. ad phi. epist. 5. whereof the one saith, it is (nefas) a detestable thing to fast upon the lords day, the other that it is to kill the Lord, and this is the inconvenience that cometh of such unlearned kind of reasoning: S. Ambrose says so and therefore it is true. And although Ambrose & Augustine, being strangers and private men at Rome, would have so done, yet it followeth not that if they had been Citizens & ministers there, that they would have done it, & if they had done so to, yet it followeth not but the they would have spoken against that appoinment of days & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting, whereof Eusebius says that Montanus was the first author. I speak of the which they aught to have done, for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting (when as the one saith) it was remedy or reward to fast other days, but in Lent, August d temp. ser. 62 Amb. 10. li▪ epist. not to fast, was sin. And the other asketh, what salvation we can obtain if we blot not our sins by fasting, seeing that the Scripture saith, that fasting and alms doth deliver from sin, and therefore calleth them new teachers, that shut out the merit of fasting, which I therefore recite because you would seem by Augustine and Ambrose judgements to allow of the weakly and commanded fasts. Io. Whitgifte. I have sufficiently proved that the Scripture hath not expressed all things that may be used in the Church touching ceremonies, order, and such matters, for that is the question we have now in handling, and for further proof and confirmation of the same, I do not disdain the authority of any man, especially of Augustine, a man Augustine delivered from untrue surmises. (for his excellent learning and sound judgement in most points of Religion) esteemed of all that have any show of learning, or sparkle of modesty: his opinicn of the sufficiency of the Scripture in matters of salvation, of the authority of it in judging matters of controversy is perfect, and sound, as may be seen Lib. 2. adversus Cresco. gramma. Lib. . contra Maximi: Lib. de unitate ecclesiae. Lib. 2 de doct. Christ▪ Chap. 16. &. 20. evang. johannis. Epist. 112. and in a number of places else: he speaketh also of Ceremonies and traditions, as moderately, as divinely and as warily as any man doth, as it appeareth evidently in these places that I have in my answer alleged. And therefore he is not with such contempt to be rejected, nor yet defaced with untrue surmises. That which cometh from so good and learned a man is the rather to be believed, so long as it is not repugnant to the word of God. And although the best earth bringeth forth some weeds, yet the good fruit must not for the weeds sake be refused. This is a very mean reason: good men sometimes err and be deceived, therefore they must never in any thing be believed. But to come to the purpose: you say, that this first place of Saint Augustine is nothing against any thing that you hold. etc. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I hold: for it proveth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determined any certainty, but left them to the disposition of others: for he saith In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura divina▪ etc. and that these things be not such as be repugnant or against the word of God; but according to the rule of Saint Paul. 1. Cor. 14. (if you were not of purpose disposed against your own conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader) you might easily understand by my expressed words, uttered in this portion of my answer, and in all other places where I have occasion to speak of the like matters. I would wish you to deal sineerely: the question that we have now in▪ The subtle dealing of T. C. in altering the state of the controversy. hand is, Whether the Scripture hath expressed all external things touching the orders, Ceremonies and government of the Church. I prove it hath not, both by the Scripture itself, and by manifest examples, and by the judgement of the best learned: you not being able to answer, and yet desirous to seem to say somewhat, to shift of these examples and authorities, dally at the matter, and would make your Reader believe that I would have things used in the Church contrary, or not according to the Scriptures: from the which opinion I am as far of as you, and a great way farther, except you revoke some points of your Book. You should therefore now have kept you to the improving of this general proposition: and if hereafter in speaking of particular matters I had approved any thing against the word of God, you might have spent▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that. You say that this place of saint augustine maketh much against me. etc. but you are greatly deceived, for Saint augustine in that place doth not give a certain rule to the whole Church, but to particular men, for it is his answer so Ca ulanus demanding of him Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare. A private man may not take upon him to violate the particular orders of any particular Church, much less such orders as be observed of the whole Church, except they be against the Scriptures, for both in this and such other rules of augustine that is generally to be observed which the same augustine, doth add in his, 118. Epistle ad januarium: quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur. etc. And that this Augu. ep. 〈◊〉. rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi. etc. is given to particular men to drive them from schisms and contentions in the Church, it is evident by that which the same augustine writeth, in the end of that Epistle ad Casulanum, Wherefore if Idem. you will willingly content yourself with my counsel (namely which have in this cause, being by you required and constrained spoken peradventure more than enough) do not resist your bishop herein, and follow that which he doth, without any scruple or doubt. Wherefore when Saint augustine saith Mos populi Dei, etc. his meaning is that they are to be observed as rules to keep private and particular men in order, and in quiet obedience to the Church. Although in deed The Church may not altar any order generally observed, without just cause. the Church itself may not without just cause, change. such things as have been generally observed, not being contra fidem & bonos mores, against faith and good manners, as the lords day, the day of the Resurrection, ascension, and such like. And there may be just causes, why things once determined by the Church, should not be changed afterwards, though before the same things were arbitrary, and might have been otherwise, and in some other manner decreed as the Church had thought most convenient: If no such causes be, it may altar any use, ceremony, or order, which it hath before determined, as Saint augustine himself declareth Epist. 118. ad januarium. His Idem. enim causis, id est, propter fidem, aut propter mores, vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat, vel institui quod non fiebat. Ipsa quip mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiw t utilitate, novitate perturbat. For these causes, that is to say, for faith and good manners, either that must be amended which was evil done, or appointed which was not done, for even that change of Custom, which helpeth through profit, doth trouble through novelty. Now how true this collection of yours is: augustine prescribeth this rule to Casulanus, that in those things wherein the Scripture hath determined no certainty, he should follow the Custom of the people of God, and the decrees of our forefathers, that is, that he should use himself in those things▪ that be not against faith and good manners according to the order of the Churches where he cometh, therefore these Customs upon just cause may not be altered by the Church, let the learned Reader judge. Ap nate man (a I said) may not break the lawful and good orders of the Church, though they be not expressed in the word of God, yet may such: as God hath gy that authority unto in his Church, altar and change them as shall be most 〈◊〉 even according to this razors le of augustine (bis in 〈◊〉 id est, aut propter fidem, aut prop oars, vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat, vel institui quod non f ebat. etc.) before by me recited. We must follow such cum omes of the Apostles and examples, as they have used What examples and customs of the Apostles we must follow. and done for us to follow, but such customs or doings of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 either peculiar unto thames lues, oh 〈◊〉 only for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in▪ we are not compelled to follow. For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me precepts general, some only rsonall, so are there in the sa of examples and orders, some that for ever are to be observed, and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were such customs, and orders among them shall be declared in seve all places, as occasion is minis read. Whether we have received, or may retain customs. etc. of the Papists or not, is partly to be discussed where I speak of apparel, and partly in other places, where more particular occasion is offered to speak of the same: and therefore I will pass it over until I come to those places. Whither it were well done to fast in all places according to the custom of the place or not, is not the question. I look to augustine's meaning and purpose, not to every one of his examples: howbeit I think that there is a great difference, betwixt the manner of fasting used then in the Church, and the manner of fasting used now in some Churches. I think that in augustine's time a man might have observed this rule of fasting without any offence to God. But I do not think that he may do so in like manner now, because it is certain that in the Church of Rome, there are many wicked opinions, both of differences of meats, times, etc. and also of merit joined to their fasting, and therefore are contra fidem & bonos mores, and so not within the compass of this rule, of S. Augustine. I perceive no repugnancy at all betwixt Ambrose, augustine, Ignatius and The replier setteth the fathers together by the ears without cause Tertullian, For the Sabbath day mentioned by Ambrose and augustine, is not the lords day, which we call the sunday, and whereof both Ignatius and Tertullian speak: but it is the Saturday which is called Sabbatum. And that this is true, you might have read in the same Epistle of augustine to Casulanus, where he says thus: Whereas you ask of me, whither it be lawful to fast on the Sabbath day: I Ibidem. answer, if it were by no means lawful, truly neither Moses, nor Helias, nor our Lord himself would have fasted forty days together. But by this reason it is concluded, that the fast on the lords day is lawful also: notwithstanding, whosoever doth think that this day ought to be dedicated unto fasting, as some do observe the Sabbath fasting, he shall give no small offence to the Church. And after in the same Epistle: And truly of the Sabbath day the case is more easy, because the Church of Rome doth fast, and some other also, although but few either of those that be next, or far from it. But to fast on the lords day is a great offence, especially since that detestable heresy of the Manicheis, which is much repugnant to the Catholic faith, and most manifestly contrary to the Scriptures of God, hath been openly known: which do appoint unto their hearers this day as lawful to be fasted, whereby it is come to pass, that the fast on the lords day is accounted more horrible. You see therefore how you may be deceived for all the great reading you would seem to be of: for these fathers agree among themselves, and you have faulted in opposing them to augustine and Ambrose: so that for any thing that is yet proved against them, a man may well use their authority in such matters without that inconvenience that you suppose: for I know how far they themselves would be believed, and whereunto their authority extendeth. It is like that both Ambrose and Augustine would have done that themselves, which they moved other men unto, and much more being Citizens, than being strangers: it is also like that if they had been Ministers there, they would have in time and place reproved such things as were amiss; for it had been their duty so to do: yet do I likewise think that they would have had great respect to that advertisement, that Augustine gave to Casulanus in that Epistle in these words, utique cavendis est ne tempestate contentionis, serenitas charitatis obnubiletur. Verily we must take heed lest Ibidem. in the storm of contention, the fairness of love be darkened. The errors which Ambrose or Augustine had, must not prejudice their authority in speaking truly. This is but a very simple kind of answering, to deny the author where be speaketh truly, because in some other place he hath erred, and been deceived. I neither allege Ambrose nor Augustine, to allow or disallow weekly and commanded fasts but to prove the matter that I have in hand, which is, that the scripture hath not expressed all things used in the Church. Howbeit, I know nothing in this place affirmed either by Ambrose or Augustine touching fasting, which may not be observed without just offence. Chapter. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 23. Sect. 2. That which he writeth in his Epistle ad januarium. 118 is a most Aug. Ep. 118. plain declaration of his judgement in this matter: Illa autem quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus, quae quidem toto terrarum orb obseruantur, dantur intelligi, vel ab ipsis Apostolis, vel plenarijs concilijs, quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima authoritas, commendata atque statuta retineri, sicuti quod domini passio, & resurrectio, & ascensio in coelum, & adventus de coelo spiritus sancti anniversaria solennitate celebrantur, & si quid aliud tale occurrerit, quod servatur ab universa quacunqueses diffundit ecclesia. Those things which be not written, but kept by tradition, which are observed through the whole world, are to be understanded, either to be delivered unto us, from the Apostles themselves, or else decreed by general Counsels, whose authority is great in the Church, as that we yearly with solemnity celebrated the passion of the Lord, and his resurrection, his ascension into heaven, and the coming of the holy Ghost, and if there be any other thing that is observed of the whole Church. T. C. Pag. 18. Lin. 1. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. What you mean to cite this place ad januarium. 118. I can not tell. You charge the authors of the Admonition to be conspired with the Papists: I will not charge you so, but will think better of you, until the contrary do more appear. But I appeal to the judgement of all men, if this be not * Nor one whit, but the contrary shall be proved. to bring in popery again, to allow of S. Augustine's saying, wherein he saith, that the celebrating of the day of the passion. etc. is either of some general Council, or of the Apostles commanded and decreed: whereby a gate is open unto the Papists, to bring in, under the colour of traditions, all their beggary whatsoever. For you plainly confirm, that there is some thing necessary to be observed, which is not contained any ways in the Scripture. For to keep those holidays, is not contained in the Scripture, neither can be concluded of any part thereof, and yet they are necessary to be kept, if they be commanded of the Apostles. Therefore in your opinion, some thing is necessary to be kept, which is not contained in the Scriptures, nor can not be concluded of them. And if you say, that S. Augustine leaveth it in doubt, whether it were the Apostles tradition and statute, or a general Counsels, than you bring us yet to a worse point, that we can not be assured of that which is necessary for us to know, that is, whether the Apostles did ordain that these days should be kept, as holidays, or the Counsels. And that it is S. Augustine's meaning to father Sermo. 7. de baptis. count. Donatist. lib. 5. ca 23. such like things of Apostles, it may appear by that which he writeth, saying: There are many things which the whole Church holdeth, and therefore are well believed to be commanded of the Apostles, although they be not found written. * A pretty and sound collecti . If this judgement of S. Augustine be a good judgement, and a sound, than there be some things commanded of God, which are not in the scriptures, and therefore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures, whereby we may be saved. (a) A great untruth and absurdity. For all the commandments of God, and of the Apostles, are needful for our salvation. And (b) Nay, mark how your affections move you to speak untruly. mark I pray you, whither your affections carry you: before you said, that the lords day, which was used for the day of rest in the Apostles time, may be changed, as the place and hour of prayer, and the day of the passion and resurrection. etc. you either thrust upon us as the decree of the Apostles, or at lest put upon us a necessity of keeping of them, least happily in breaking of them, we might break the Apostles decree, for you make it to lie between the Counsels and the Apostles, which of them decreed this. And do you not perceive how you still reason against yourself? For if the Church have had so great regard to that which the Apostles did in the es, that they kept those things which are not written, and therefore are doubtful whether ever they used them or not, how much over should we hold ourselves to these things which are written that they did, and of the which we are assured? As touching the observation of these holidays, I will refer the Reader unto an other place, where occasion is given again to speak of them. Io. Whitgifte, My meaning therein I have set down in my answer. It is to let you understand The rule of S. Augustine doth not establish, but overthrow p perie. S. Augustine's judgement in the matter we have in hand. The rule is true and good, and so far from establishing any piece of Popery, that if rather quite overthroweth the same. By it we may prove the supremacy which the Bishop of Rome claimeth over all Churches, neither to be written in the word, nor yet to be appointed by the Apostles, nor yet determined by ancient general Counsels: for neither hath he been always, nor in all places taken to be the head of the Church. And it is manifest that Phocas the traitor and murderer, gave first unto him and his Church that prerogative, and therefore not left unto him by the Apostles, nor given him by the general Counsels. The like may be said of all other things used in the Church against the word of God. For it is certain, that they have not been generally observed in all places, and at all times: and if some of them have bëene so observed, yet not in that manner and form, that the Church of Rome doth now observe them. So that you find fault with this rule, before you have cause. Master Zuinglius (who would have been loath one whit to strengthen the Papists) speaking of the like place of S. Augustine, in his book de baptismo, saith thus: But leaving those things, Zuingl. de baptis. of the rule of Aug. let us return to the words of Augustine, who among other things addeth this: Quanquàm quod universa tenet ecclesia nec concitijs institutum, sed semper retentum est, non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur. etc. Let these words (saith he) prevail with other men as they may, yet no man can deny, but that there lieth great weight of authority in them. For if there be nothing in Counsels concluded of the baptizing of Infants: and yet the same was universally of the whole Church observed in Angustines' time, what other thing can be gathered, but that it hath always been used without contradiction. Master Caluine also Lib. Insti. Cap. 13. Sect. 21. useth this rule of Augustine to the same purpose, where he speaking of Popish traditions, for the which they abuse the authority of Augustine, saith thus: Ego verò non aliundè quam ex ipsius Augustini verbis solutionem afferam. Quae toto inquit terrarum orb seruantur, vel ab ipsis Apostolis, vel concilijs generalibus, quorum est in ecclesia saluberriman authoritas, statuta esse intelligere licet. Verily I will fetch a solution from no other place, than from the very words of Augustine. Those things (saith he) which are observed throughout the whole world, are understood to have been instituted, either of the Apostles themselves, or of general Counsels. etc. As it is in the answer to the Admonition. I know no reason why the Apostles may not be said to be the authors of celebrating the day of the Passion. etc. Neither yet do I under stand any cause why the Church may not still observe the same: sure I am, that they were not the authors of the superstitions and errors used in them by the Papists, neither doth Augustine say so: for this is no good argument to say, the Apostles appointed these days to be celebrated: Ergo, they appointed the manner of celebrating used by the Papists. The days may be with more godliness, and profit to the Church observed (being cleansed from super stition and erroneous doctrine) than abrogated. Neither is this to open a gate to Papistical traditions, but to shut it close up, as I have said before. For let the Papists (if they can) name any wicked thing used in their Church, which either bathe been generally observed, or whereof I am not able to show the first author and inventor. Neither Aug in this place, nor I in any place have said, or con it 〈◊〉 thing not conntayned in the Scripture, to be so necessary to be observed, that (upon iust consideration) it may not be. altered by such as have authority. And 〈◊〉 all that you do say, have said, or shall say 〈◊〉 that effect, is forged, and untrue, devised only by you as a shift to fly unto, when otherwise you are to seek for answer. To these your words, they are necessary to be kept, if they be commanded by the Apostles▪ (meaning such things as Augustine speaketh of) I answer with master Calvin, who as I told you before, writing upon these words. 1. Cor11: Quemadmodum tradidi vobis, etc. doth grant that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written, but he denieth them to be taken aspartes of doctrine, oh necessary to salvation, saying, that they be only such as pertain to order and policy. The rest of this section of yours is nothing but: Petitio Principij. For neither do I move any such doubt in Augustine's words, neither, is it material whether I do, or no: neither yet is it true that there is any thing commanded of. God, or of the Apostles, as necessary to salvation, which is not contained in the word of God: neither are these and such like traditions parts of doctrine, and of salvation (as M. Calvin truly saith) but of order and policy. Who would think that any man (except he had hardened his face, without A gross error of T. C. blushing to affirm untruths) would have fallen into such gross absurdities, and uttered such strange assertions void of all truth. Have you ever read in Scripture, or in the writings of any learned man, or can you by reason prove this Paradox, that all the commandments of God and of the Apostles are needful for our salvation? What is to lay an intolerable yoke and burden upon the necks of men, if this be not? or whereby could you more directly bring us into the bondage of the law, from the which we are made free, than by this assertion? for if all the commandments Gal. 5. of God. etc. are needful for our salvation, then must we be bound upon necessity of salvation, to observe the whole Ceremonial law, which was the commandment of God. What? was the commandment unto Abraham, to offer his son Isahac: Genes. 22. unto the Israelites to rob the Egyptians: unto Moses to put off his shoes: unto Exod. 11. Saul to kill Amalech, and infinite other, needful for our salvation? is the commandment Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstain from blood, and that which is strangled: or of 1 Sam. 15. Paul unto Timothy, to drink wine. etc. needful for our salvation? What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring unto a weak conscience, which hath not observed 1. Tim. 5. any one of these? You must therefore understand, that there are divers kinds of commandments of God, and of the Apostles, some general, and given to all: other Diverskinds' of commandments. personal, and pertain only to one singular person, or to one nation and kind of people. etc. Again there are some which are perpetual, & not to be omitted or altered: other which are temporal, and may be omitted or altered, as the circumstance of time, place, & people doth require. Whereby it may appear, how grossly you have erred, in affirming, that all the commandments of God, and of the Apostles, are needful for our salvation. I might in more ample manner prosecute this matter, but this that hath been spoken may suffice. What I have said of changing the lords day, and how you have satisfied my words, is declared before: and so is the answer made likewise unto this your feeble conclusion, grounded upon a falie principle. Which of us two is carried furthest by his affections, let the indifferent reader judge, by these and such other like dealings of yours. I have told you before how much this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose, which you can not but understand, if you sought not corners to creep into, for the avoiding of such reasons and authorities as be most apt for my purpose. Things which the Apostles have done, for us to follow, without any exception may not be violated, but the question is, whether these things which they have done and written, be sufficient for the ordering and government of all Churches, in all times and states, or no. And whether in all things that they have done, we may or ought to follow them, both which you have hitherto very slenderly touched. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. & Pag. 25. Sect. 1 And again, Quod neque contra fidem, neque contra bonos mores iniungitur, indifferenter est habendum, & pro eorum inter quos vivitur societate seruandum est, That which is enjoined, being neither against faith, nor good manners, is to be counted indifferent, and to be observed, as the society of those with whom we line requiteth. In the same Epistle answering this question (whether upon the Thursday before Easter, the lords supper should be celebrated in the morning, or at night, because Christ did institute this Sacrament, and deliver the same to his Disciples after supper, he giveth these three rules worthy to be noted, the first is this: If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done, there is no doubt but that must be observed, as it is there prescribed. The second is this: That if any thing be universally observed of the whole Church (not repugnant to the Scriptures) (for so he means) not to keep that, or to reason of that is madness. The third: If it be not universally observed, but diversly in divers Churches: Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quam venit invenerit: Let every man do as he finds in that Church into the which he cometh, modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores, So that it be not against faith or good manners, for so he addeth. In the same Epistle again he saith, that the Lord hath not in Scripture declared in what order and manner his Supper should be celebrated, but left that to his Disciples. And in his hundredth and nintenth add januar. In those things (saith he) that be diversly observed in divers places, this rule as most profitable is to be kept, that those things which be not against faith, neither good manners, and make something to exhort unto a better life, wheresoever they are instituted, we aught not only not to disallow them, but to praise them, and to follow them. By all these places of this learned father it is evident, that it hath been received from time to time as a certain truth, that the Church of Christ hath authority to ordain and constitute, as shall be necessary, in those things before of me rehearsed. For a further proof hereof, I could allege that ancient and learned father justinus Martyr, in his second Apology pro justinus Martyr . Christianis, and in his book of questions. Tertullian in his book Decorona militis. basil also in his. 63. Epistle written to the ministers of Neocaesaria. Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti. histor. Cap. 25. &. 26. and divers other, but I omit Basil. them for brevity sake, neither do I allege those learned fathers, Euseb. because I think their authority any thing at all prevaileth with the authors of the Libel, but for the wise, discrete, humble, and learned, whose humility and wisdom will not suffer them to despise the judgements of so learned and godly fathers. T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 & Pag. 19 Sect. 1 As for that rule that he giveth when he say thee, what so ever is not. etc. and for the last of the three rules, I receive them with his own interpretation, which he hath afterward in 119. Epist. ad januarium, which is, that it be also profitable. And as for those three rules, which you say, are worthy to be noted, I can see nothing, that they help your cause one whit, for I know no man that ever denied, but that the Church may in such things as are not specified and precisely determined, make orders, so they be grounded of those general rules which I have before alleged out of S. Paul. And as for the second of the three rules, I can not at any hand allow it, for when all Christianity was overrun with popery, things were universally observed, which to keep were mere wickedness, and this strengtheneth the Papists universality. Concerning your Gloze (if it be not repugnant to the scripture) besides that it is not enough, because it must be grounded by the Scripture, and that it is wicked to give such authority to any decree of men, that a man should not inquire of it, or reason of it, I have showed that he ment nothing less. For affirming that such things are the Apostles commandments, his meaning was, that they should be without all exception received, and absolutely. 〈◊〉 much better is it that we take heed to the words of the Apostle, than either to S. Augustine's or yours, which saith, that if he, or an Angel from heaven, should preach any other (1) M Doctor speaketh not of preaching another Gospel, but of appointing other rites and orders Gospel, than that which he had preached, that they should hold him accursed: he saith not any contrary or repugnant doctrine, but any other Gospel. But tell me, why (2) Because it nothing pertaineth to my purpose. S. Aug. mangled and not truly reported. passed you by that in Augustine which he writeth to januarie likewise, that those things which are not contained in the Scripture, nor decreed of Counsels, nor confirmed by general customs, but are varied by the manners of Regions, and of men, upon occasion offered, ought to be cut off, although they seem not to be against faith, because they press with seru e burdens, the religion which Christ would have free. This sentence belike was to hot for you, you could not carry it. Therest whose names you recite (which you say you leave off for brevity sake) I leave to the judgement of the Reader to consider, wherefore they be left out, seeing that Augustine, in whom you put so great trust, answereth so little to your expectation. This is certain, that bred tie (which you pretend) was in small commendations with you, (3) Words of pleasure. which make so often repetitions, stuff in divers sentences of doctors and writers, to prove things that no man denieth, translate whole leaves to so small purpose, (4) Tu poe est doctori. etc. upon so light occasions make so often digressions, sometimes against the unlearnedness, sometimes against the malice, sometimes against the intemperancy of speech of the authors of the Admonition, and every hand while pulling out the sword upon them, and throughout the whole book sporting yourself with the quotations in the margin: so that if all these were taken out of your book, as wind out of a bladder, we should have had it in a narrow room, which is thus swelled into such a volume, and in stead of a book of two shillings, we should have had a pamphlet of two pennies. And whereas you say, that you have not alleged these learned fathers for the authors of the Libel, but for the wise, discrete, humble, and learned: to them also I leave it to consider, upon that which is alleged by me. First, how like a divine it is, to seek for rules in the Doctors, to measure the making of ceremonies by, which you might have had in the Scriptures: there at the rivers, here at the fountain: uncertain there, which here are certain, there part false, which are here altogether true: then to how little purpose they serve you, and last of all, how they make against you. Io. Whitgifte. I take that which you grant: both the first rule, which is, Quod neque contra fidem. etc. and the last of the three, with what interpretation soever you admit them, serve my turn very well, and fully prove my present purpose. Wherefore in granting of them, you have granted as much to me as hitherto I have desired. Of the rules out of S. Paul, I have spoken before: so have I likewise of the ends which the Church must have a respect unto in her decrees of orders, ceremonies, and government, whereof also I shall have occasion to speak hereafter. The second of the three rules you can not at any hand allow, but there is no cause why you should mislike it. For Augustine did give it as a rule meet for his time, not for all times, although it may serve also for all times, if his meaning be joined with it, that is, If that which is universally observed of the whole Church, be not repugnant to the word of God, and so it strengtheneth not one whit the Papists pretended universality. In mattrrs of order, ceremonies, and government, it is sufficient if they be not repugnant to the scripture. Neither do I think any great difference to be betwixt not repugnant to the word of God, and according to the word. That which is generally observed, and of that kind that the rule means, is Decrees that pertain to order & comeliness, are not only human. not only man's tradition and decree, but Gods also. M. Calvin teacheth you in his Institutions, Cap. 13. Sect. 31. that such kind of decrees, as pertain to order and comeliness, are not only human, but divine. And he bringeth in for an example kneeling at public prayers. S. Augustine's meaning is, that he would have no factions or contentions in the Church, or any man to trouble the peace thereof, by setting himself against lawful orders and customs of the same: otherwise I think that he neither forbiddeth to inquire, or reason of any such matter. But you think that Augustine was so addicted to such decrees of the Apostles, that his meaning was to have them received without all exception. Surely I think that he was so persuaded in deed of such decrees, as he means and speaketh of in that place. But for as much as in such rules he hath sundry times made such exceptions, Quod neque cóntra fidem. etc. therefore this rule also is to be received of us, according to his meaning in all such like rules. God forbidden that I should not take heed to those words of the Apostle, & hold him accursed which shall preach any other Gospel, than that which he had preached. For I take him that preacheth any other Gospel, to preach contrary and repugnant doctrine to the Apostle: and undoubtedly he that teacheth any thing to be necessary to salvation, which is not comprehended in the scripture, teacheth a false doctrine, and clean contrary to the doctrine of the Scripture. But you do not use this place (I am sure) against any thing that is here said. Our question is not of matters pertaining to salvation, but of ceremonies, of external orders, and discipline. Whereof S. Paul speaketh nothing in that place. I make them not matters of salvation, neither are they. I will tell you why I passed by that which S. Augustine writeth to january, Epist. 119. and is now recited by you, because it nothing pertaineth to my purpose, and yet it is rather with me, than against me. But let me now ask you an other question, why do you not truly report S. Augustine's S. Augustine mangled and untruly reported by T. C. words, but maim them both before, behind, and in the midst, for Augustine in the words that immediately go before, saith: That he was much grieved, because that many things which were more profitably commanded in the word of God were neglected, by reason of so many presumptuous observations of outward ceremonies: the omitting whereof was more grievously punished, than the breaking of God's commandments. And upon this occasion he concludeth thus: Omnia itaque talia quae neque sanctorum. etc. All such ceremonies (scilicet, as be impediments to the observing of the commandment of God, and are preferred before God's commandments) being neither contained in the holy Scriptures, nor found decreed in the Counsels of Bishops, nor confirmed by the custom of the whole Church, but are varied innumerably by the divers manners of divers Regions: so that scarcely, or never the causes can be found out, which men followed in appointing of them: when occasion is offered I think they aught to he cut off without any doubt. Hitherto Augustine. Therefore in reciting the words of S. Augustine in this place, first you have omitted the words going before, that express his mind, and declare that he means such ceremonies as be impediments to the observing of God's commandments: for having spoken of such before in manifest words, he concludeth (as I have said) on this sort, Omnia itaque talia. etc. All such ceremonies. etc. which words you have fraudulently kept back. Secondly, where S. Augustine speaketh of the unreasonable multitude of ceremonies, using these words: innumerabiliter variantur, are varied innumerably, you have likewise left out this word, innumerably, which also expresseth Augustine's meaning. last of all you have concealed a sentence in the midst, which is very material to the declaring of Augustine his mind. The sentence is this: Ita ut vix aut omninò nunquàm inveniri possint causae, quas in eyes instituendis homines secuti sunt: So that scarcely or never the causes can be found out, which men followed in appointing of them. Whereby it is plain, that he also means such ceremonies as be appointed without reason or cause. And yet in the latter end he addeth: But the Church of God being placed betwixt much chaff and darnel, doth tolerate many things. etc. But I am so far from defending the multitude, or burdensomeness of ceremonies, that I consent in all points with that saying of Augustine, wherefore this sentence is nothing to hot for me, but pleaseth me right well: And it had been more for your commendation if you had not meddled withal. They whose names I here recite (though I have not written their words) yet in the places which I have qnoted do affirm as much as I recite them for, which you might have found, if you had taken pains to search for the same, as I think verily you have done, and found little for your purpose, and therefore are content to pass them over in silence. If I make so oft repetitinons, I do but as I am occasioned by them whom I answer, and as you do yourself in this Reply, though it pleaseth you not to be acknown of it. The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuff in, argue that I have read them, and that I am not ashamed to lay them open, to the end my plain dealing may be seen, in alleging of them. But what? did you before find fault with my Dumb doctors, and can you not now abide them speaking? surely I intent not to be directed by so unconstant a guide. If I prove things that no man denieth, you had the less labour in replying: If I translate whole leaves to so small purpose, they be the sooner answered: if upon so light occasions, I have made so often digressions, you will take heed (I am well assured) that you offend not in the like: which truly you have forgotten in this place, for here is a digression without all reason. But I will let your reverend and modest speeches pass, and not recompense them with the like: for it neither savoureth the spirit of God, neither yet any modest and good nature, but a stomach swelling rather against the person, than against the cause. My purpose is not in this place to seek for rules to measure Ceremonies by, but to prove that in Ceremonies and other external things, much is left to the discretion of the Church, which is not to be found in Scriptures: and yet I know none of these rules unmeet for a divine to search for, or to understand, unless it be such a one, as contemneth all other men's learning but his own. But how happeneth it that you have answered nothing to the last place that I have alleged out of Augustine. Or why say you nothing to my conclusion, which is, that by all those places of this learned father, it is evident. etc. In all this your reply you have greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi, for you have not reasoned, nor answered ad idem, but spoken altogether from the purpose. T. C favire in ignorantia Elenchi. ¶ The opinion of M. Calvin of things indifferent. Chap. 4. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 25. Sect.. 2. 3. &. Pag. 26. 27. 28. & Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. calvin's judgement will weigh something with them, who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. &. 32. speaking of traditions, saith in this sort. Because the Lord hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended, and declared in the holy scriptures, the whole sum of true righteousness, & all the parts of the true worshipping of him, and what so ever is necessary unto salvation, therefore in those things he is only to be herded, as a master, or teacher: But because in external discipline & ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe, what we aught to follow, because he foresaw that this depended upon the state and condition of the time, neither did judge one form or manner to be agreeable to all ages, here we must have a respect to those general rules which he gave, that according to them might be examined such things, as the necessity of the Church requireth to be commanded for order & decency. Finally, because in these things he hath expressed nothing (for that they are neither necessary to salvation, and may be diversly applied to the edifying of the Church, according to the manner and custom of every country and age) Therefore as the commodity of the Church requireth, & as shall be thought convenient, both the old may be abrogated & new appointed. I grant that we must not rashly nor often, nor for every light cause make innovations. But what hurteth, and what edifieth charity will best judge, which if we will suffer to be the moderatrix, all shallbe safe & well. Now it is the office of Christian people with a free conscience, without su-superstition, with a godly mind and ready and willing to obey, to observe those things which are appointed according to this rule, not to contemn them, nor negligently to omit them, so far off aught they to be from breaking them openly through disdain and contumacy. But thou wilt say, what liberty of conscience can there be in so precise and strait observing of them? truly the liberty of conscience may well stand which it, if we shall consider that these laws and decrees to the which we are bound, be not perpetual, or such as are not to be abrogated: but only external rudiments of man's infirmities: whereof notwithstanding we all stand not in need, yet we all use them, because one of us is mutually bond to an other, to nourish love and charity among ourselves. This we may learn in the examples used before. What? doth religion consist in a woman's vail, that by no means she may go abroad bore headed? or is the commandment touching her silence such, as it may not be broken without wickedness? or is there any mystery in kneeling, or in burying the dead, that may not be omitted without great offence? Not truly: for if such hast be required of a woman to help her neighbour, that she can have no leisure to cover her head, she doth not offend, though she run out bore headed. And there is a time & place when and where it is as meet for her to speak, as it is elsewhere to hold her peace. Him also to pray standing, which being letted with some disease, can not kneel, there is nothing forbiddeth. To be short, it is better in time to bury the dead, than to tarry for a winding sheet, or some to carry him, until he stink above the ground. But there is somewhat even in thosethings, which the custom of Religion, laws, and decrees, humanity itself, and the rule of modesty willeth us to do, & to take heed of, wherein if we shall through ignorance & forgetfulness offend, there is no sin committed: But if through contempt or contumacy, it is to be reproved. In like manner it skilleth not what days be appointed, what hours, what manner of places touching the building, what Psalms are to be sung this day or that day: And yet there must certain days be appointed, & certain hours, and a place meet to receive all, if we have any respect to keep unity & peace. For what confusion were it, & of how great contentions & brawlings the seed, and cause, if every man as he listeth, might altar and change those things which pertain to the common state: Seeing that it would never be brought to pass, that one thing could please all men, if such matters were left indifferent, and committed to every man's arbitrement? Now if any man repined or grudge, & will here seem wiser than it behoveth him, let him consider by what reason he can excuse his waywardness in the Lord. Notwithstanding that saying of S. Paul must satisfy us: we have no custom to contend, neither the 1. Cor. 11. Churches of God. Thus far Caluine. In which words we have these things to consider: first that Collections out of Caluine. God hath in the Scripture fully and plainly comprehended all those things that be necessary to salvation. Secondly, that in Ceremonies and external discipline, he hath not in Scripture particularly determined any thing, but left the same to his Church, to make or abrogate, to altar, or continued, to add, or take away, as shall be thought from time to time, most convenient, for the present state of the Church, so that nothing be done, agayust that general rule of Saint Paul. 1. Corin. 14. Let all things be done decently and in order. Thirdly, that it is the duty of a Christian man without superstition willingly to obey such constitutions, not to contemn them, not to neglect them, much less stubbornly and arrogantly to break them. Fourthly, that the observing of them taketh not liberty from the conscience, because they be not made to be perpetual and inviolable, but to be altered, as time, occasion and necessity requireth. Fifthly, that all aught to obey such ordinances, for charity sake, though all stand not in need of them. Sixthly, that if a man do violate them by ignorance or forgetfulness, he doth not offend, if by contempt or stubborness he doth greatly offend. seventhly, that confusion (which is to suffer every man to do what he list) is the seed of contention and brawling. Last of all, that the true ministers of God be not contentious, neither yet the Churches of God. These things among other I thought good to note out of M. calvin's words, which if they were diligently considered, such contentions might soon be ended. T. C. Pag. 19 Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. &. Pag. 20. Sect. 1 Why should you trust that M. Caluins' judgement will weigh with them, if they be Anabaptists (as you accuse them) if they be Donatists, if Catharists, if conspired with the Papists, how can you think that they will so easily rest in M. calvin's judgement, which hated and confuted all Anabaptisme, Donatisme, Catharisme, & Papisme? but it is true which the proverb saith, memorem. etc. he that will speak an untruth, had need have a good memory: & this is the force of the truth, in the conscience of man, that although he suppress it, & pretend the contrary, yet at unwares it stealeth out. For what greater testimony could you have given of them, that they hate a those heresies, which you lay to their charge, than to say, that you trust M. Caluins' judgement will weigh them? Now in deed that you be not deceived, we receive M. Calvin, & weigh of him, as of the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred up, for the purging of his Churches, & of the restoring of the plain & sincere interpretation of the scriptures, which hath been since the Apostles times. And yet we do not so read his works, the we believe any thing to be true, because he says it, but so far as we can esteem, that the which he says, doth agreed with the canonical scriptures. But what gather you out of M. Caluine? First that all necessary things to salvation, are contained in the scripture: who denieth it? In the second collection, where you would give to understand the ceremonies & external discipline are not prescribed particularly by the word of God, & therefore left to the order of the Church: you must understand, that all external discipline is not left to the order of the Church, being particularly prescribed scribed in the scriptures, no more than (a) You say after that there are but these two. all ceremonies are left to the order of the Church, as the sacraments of Baptisin, & the supper oh the Lord: whereas, upon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluine, saying Ceremonies & external discipline, without adding all, or some, you go about (b) Untruth, for I have reported his words to no other end than he hath written them. subtly to make men believe that Calvin had placed the whole external discipline in the power & arbitrement of the Church. For i all external discipline were arbitrary, & in the choice of the Church, excommunication also (which is a part of it) might be cast away, which I think you will not say. But if that M. Caluine were alive to hear his sentences (c) You should have showed wherein his words are ra ked and wryth . racked and writhe, to establish those things, which he strove so mightily to overthrow, and to overthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establish, what might he say? & the injury which is done to him is nothing less because he is dead. Concerning all the rest of your collections, I have not lightly known a man, which ta eth so much pain with so small gain, & which soweth his seed in the sea, whereof there will never rise increase. For I know none that ever deined those things, unless peradventure you would make the reader believe, the a those be contentious, which move any controversy of things which they judge to be amiss, & then it is answered before, & now I answer further, that they that move to reformation of things, are no more to be blamed as authors of contention, than the Physician, which giveth a purgation, is to be blamed for the rumbling & stir in the beliy, & other disquietness of the body, which should not have be 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 humours & naughty disposition of it, had not caused or procured this purgation. Whereas you conclude, that these contentions would be spon ended, if M Caluins' words were noted, here we will join with you, & will not refuse the (d) In any place that maketh with you, but not otherwise. judgement of M. Calvin in any matter that we have in controvers e with you, which I speak not therefore, because I would call the decision of controversies to men and their words (which pertain only to God and to his word) but because I know his judgement in these, things to be clean against you, and especially for that you would beat men in hand, that M. Calvin is on your side, and against us. Io. Whitgifte. If you yourself will of necessity enforce these qualities and conditions of Anabaptistes (which I in the beginning rehearsed) upon the authors of the admonition, who can let you? The most that I have said, is that I suspect them, because they so agreed with them in certain qualities and practices. But if they were bend that way, yet doth it not follow that they would by and by seem to contemn M. calvin's or any other famous and learned man's judgement. For you know that the chief captains of the Anabaptistes, did not forthwith utter either all their contempt of learned men, or all their pestiferous opinions at the first, but used therein some policy, such as might most prevail to win credit unto their faction. You remember that Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesiast. saith of the Anabaptists, Zuinglius aducrs. Anab. that though they protested, and by oath denied that they meant to take any authority from the magistrate, yet shortly after it would appear, that they would have been disobedient to all laws of Magistrates. etc. as I have before rehearsed: the practice whereof is to be seen in Sleidan and other stories. And although in the beginning it was pretended that the contention was but in matters of no great importance, as cap, surplice, tippet. etc. yet in the additions to the first admonition fol. 9 it is protested, that the strife is for greater matters, as for a true ministery, and government of the Church, and now you say, that certain matters Fol. 5. sect. ult. Fo. 14. lin. 5. Fol. 6. sect. 4. which be in controversy, are matters of life and death, of salvation and damnation. fol. 5. & 14. Besides all this the additions that you make to the protestation of your obediencs to the civil Magistrate fol. 6. etc. is very suspicious, so is your doctrine touching the authority of the civil magistrate also, as I have in an other place declared. Wherefore how far both they and you will as yet proceed, is not certainly known. In the mean time, if by allowing such as M. Caluine is, some credit were not maintained, wise and learned men would the sooner espy their doings. When I say, that I trust M. calvin's judgement will weigh some thing with them. I speak it but in comparison, to the authority of such as I have before alleged. For I know they make small acc mpt of any author that writeth against them, but lest of all of the old ancient fathers, whom some of them are not ashamed to call pillory Doctors. They may therefore bear a countenance to such as hate and confute Anabaptisme, Papisme. etc. and yet both join with the Papists and the Anabaptists etc. in disturbing the Church. As the words of M. Caluine be directly to my purpose, and my collections truly gathered out of them, so is your answer thereunto very weak, and in deed nothing. The words of M. Caluine where upon my second collection is gathered, be these: But because in external discipline and ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe what we aught to follow, because he foresaw that this depended upon the state and condition of the time, neither did judge one form or manner to be agreeable to all ages: Here we must have respect. etc. Confer these words with my collection, and you shall see them agree in all points. And surely M. Caluine sayeth that fully and plainly in this place, which I have taken in hand to prove. M. Caluine neither addeth all, nor some, and therefore neither have I added them, lest I might seem to be a corrupter of his words. Your objection of the Supper of the Lord, and of Baptism, is altogether frivolous: for they be substantial Ceremonies: and not ceremonies only, but Sacraments also, and therefore must have of necessity an express commandment in the word of God. Touching excommunication, I shall speak hereafter, it is the matter that the Anabaptists so greatly urged, and for the not using of the which, they separated themselves from the Churches, where the Gospel was preached, as appeareth in the books both of Caluine, Bullinger, and others, against them. I know that touching Excommunication, whether the use of it be at all ymes so necessary or not, that it may not be altered, learned men do vary in judgements, whose opinions in that matter I will defer, until I come where I have farther occasion to speak of it. If M. Caluine were alive, and understood the state of our Church and controversy truly, I verily believe that he would utterly condemn your doings: and I am the rather induced to think so, because I understand him to have allowed many things in the English Church being at Geneva, which you altogether mislike, as Funeral sermons. etc. And therefore he would not think his words racked one whit, to establish any thing that he would have had overthrown. The rest of my collections are most agreeable to M calvin's words, most necessary for this present time, and most apt for my purpose: and your passing them over so slightly, doth argue your lack of ability to answer them. In deed they flatly determine this controversy, and in effect overthrow your whole book. Those that make contention in the Church for such matters as you do, and in such sort and manner, can not avoid the just accusations of being contentious people: and if the Physician giveth a purgation where there is no need, or a more vehement purgation than is convenient for the disease, or minister it out of time, or give one purgation for an other. etc. what rumbling and stir soever follow in the body, he may be justly said to be the author and cause of them. Do you not know what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast. speaking of Anabaptistes: If they were sent of God, Zuinglius i Ecclesiast. m de bapti mother. and endued with the spirit of love, they would have construed in the best part, those external things. etc. And again, Christ never made any contention for external things, and in his book de Baptismo, They go about innovations of their own private authority. etc. I use M. calvin's judgement, as I use the judgement of other learned men, neither will I refuse any learned man's opinion in these controversies, that truly and wholly understandeth the state of this Church, and the ground of all things used in it. But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer. ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent. Chap. 5. Answer to the Admonition. Page 29. Sect. 5. &. 6. Of the same judgement in this matter is M. Bucer, as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent. in his Epistle to M. Alasco, these be his words: If you will not admit such liberty, and use of vesture to this pure and holy Church, because they have no commandment of the Lord, nor example of it: I do not see how you can grant to any Church, that it may celebrated the lords Supper in the morning, and in an open Church, especially consecrated to the Lord: that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing, yea to women as well as to men. For we have received of these things neither commandment of the Lord, nor any example, yea rather the Lord gave a contrary example. For in the evening, and in a private house he did make his Supper, and distributed the Sacraments, and that to men only, and sitting at the table. Haec Bucerus. But to end this matter, is it not as lawful for a godly Prince, with the advise and consent of godly and learned Bishops, and other of the wisest, to make orders in the Church, and laws Ecclesiastical, as it is for every private man, to use what manner and form of service he list, and other order and discipline in his own parish, which these men seek and strive to do. T. C. Page. 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. &. Pag. 21. Sect. 1 And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer, and Musculus, and Bullinger, Gualther, and Hemingius, and the rest of the late writers, by citing of whom, you would give to understand, that they are against us in these matters, there is set down in the latter end of this book, their several judgements, of the most of these things which are in controversy: whereby it may appear, that if they have spoken one word against us, they have You do learned men great injury, in accusing them of contrariety. spoken two for us. And whereas they have written (as it is said) and alieadged in their private letters to their friends, against some of these causes, it may appear, that they have in their works published to the whole world, that they confirm the same causes. So that if they written any such things, they shall be found not so much to have dissented from us, as from themselves: and therefore we appeal from themselves, unto themselves: and from their private notes and letters to their public writings, as more authentical. You labour still in the fire that is unprofitable, to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to prove, that the Church may order things, whereof there is no particular and expressed commandment, for there is none denieth it, neither is this saying, that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God, any thing repugnant unto this, that the Church may ordain certain things, according to the word of God. But if this Epistle, and others of M. Bucers' with his notes upon the book of common prayer, which are so often cited, and certain Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were never printed (as (1) You cannot but understand that they are printed. I cannot understand they were) then besides that you do us injury, which go about to prejudice our cause by the testimonies of them, which we can neither hear nor see, being kept close in your study: you also do your cause much more injury, whilst you betray the poverty and nakedness of it, being fame to ransack, and ruffle up every dark corner, to found something to cover it with. Therefore it were good before you took any benefit of them, to let them come forth, and speak their own testimonies, in their own language and full out. For now you give men occasion to think, that there are some other things in their Epistles which you would be loath the world should know, for fear of fall of that, which you would gladly keep. There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition, than ministers were not so tied to any form of prayers. etc. no man that saith that it aught to be permitted to every person in the Church where he is minister, to have such order or discipline, or to use such service, as he listeth, no man seeketh for it. But to have the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appointeth, and in other things to use that, which shall be according to the rules of S. Paul before recited, agreed by the Church, and confirmed by the prince. And whereas you have ever hitherto given the ordering of these things to the Church, how come you now to (3) An untruth, for I give it not to the Bishops only, but to a godly Prince with the advice and consent of godly and learned Bishops, and other of the wisest. ascribe it to the Bishops? you mean I am sure the Bishops, as we call Bishops here in England, whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists unawares, which when they have spoken many things of the Church inagnifically, at the last they bring it now to the doctors of the Church, now to Bishops. As for me, although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Bishops, and very learned also, and therefore very meet to be admitted into that consultation, whereinit shall be considered, what things are good in the Church: yet in respect of that office and calling of a Bishop, which they now exercise, I think that every godly learned minister and pastor of the Church, hath more interest and right, in respect of his office, to be at that consultation: then any Bishop or Archbishop in the Realm, for as much as he hath an ordinary calling of God, and function appointed in the scriptures which he exerciseth, and the other hath not. But how this authority pertaining to the whole Church, of making of such orders, may and aught to be called to a certain number, that confusion may be avoided, and with the consent also of the Churches to avoid tyranny, it shall appear in a more proper place where we shall have occasion to speak of the eldership or government in every Church, and of the communion and society or participation, & intercommuning of the Churches together, by counsels, and assemblies provincial or national. Io. Whitgifte. divers of those learned men here named, being rightly informed of the state of The occasion of men's writings must be considered. this controversy, with all the circumstances pertaining thereunto, have set down their opinions in writing, and therefore if it should so come to pass, (which as yet is not proved, neither as I think will be) that in their public writings, they should seem to affirm any thing contrary to their private letters, it is because they speaking generally of all, and having respect to the time and place, wherein and when such things were abused, have generally spoken of them otherwise then they do, as they be now used in this Church of England. And surely in my opinion these their epistles, wherein of purpose (being required) they give their sentence of such matters, ought to be more credited, than their general writings, wherein they may seem otherwise to speak upon other occasions. But I think that in the end it will fall out, that they have written nothing publicly against any thing that is written by them privately: and of some of them I am sure that their public and private writings of these matters do fully agree. But where have you learned to answer on this sort to the authority of learned men? to accuse them of contrariety before you have manifestly proved it, is to do unto them great injury. The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose, and therefore in giving place unto it, you grant as much as I hitherto have required. For M. Bucer used the example of apparel which is one thing in controversy betwixt us, and sayeth plainly, that the Church hath authority to appoint such things, as have neither commandment nor example in the Scripture. These Epistles of M. Bucer, and of M. Martyr, with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully, and it can not be that the same should be unknown unto you, the books being so common: your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour. When every Minister must be chief of the signiory, and have with some other of the parish the whole authority Ecclesiastical: when they must not be so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason. tied to any form of prayers, but as the spirit moveth them, so to pour out supplications: when the Prince is secluded from authority in appointing of ceremonies, and orders of discipline, that is, when in Ecclesiastical matters you give to the Civil magistrate no more than the Papists do, to wit potestatem facti, and not potestatem juris, as will afterwards more plainly appear: what is it else but for every minister to be Pope in his own parish, and to use such order, discipline, and service as he himself listeth. If you had been disposed to speak the truth, and to report my words as they be written, you would have eased your book of these lines which follow. For where do I give this authority to the Bishops? or in what words do I restrain the Church to them? my words be these: Is it not as lawful for a godly Prince, with the advise and consent of godly and learned Bishops, and other of the wisest, to make orders in the Church. etc. You see that I join the Prince, the Bishops, and other of the wisest together in making of orders. etc. and whensoever I mean the Church in such a case, I mean not the confused multitude of the Church, but such as God hath called to govern his Church in the external government: whom I take to be in this Church, the Prince, the Bishops, the Council, and such other, as by the order of this Church, have to do in such like matters. Your falsifying hurteth not me, but discrediteth yourself, and your cause. The Bishops have much to thank you, that it would please you to admit them into that consultation of yours, if they would give over that office and calling. But (thanks be unto God) you have as yet no such authority committed unto you. Wherefore this and such like kind of speeches, do but declare how magnifically you think of yourself. etc. If it pertain to the whole Church, that is (as I think you understand it) to the whole multitude of the Church, to make such orders, how can you restrain it to a certain number? or why not as well to some one, if the multitude think it so convenient, but of this matter, when you come to your signiory and kind of government. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 30. Sect. 1 An examination of the places. etc. TO prove that nothing in this mortal life is more diligently to be sought for, and carefully to be looked unto than the restitution of true Religion, and reformation of God's Church, there is noted. 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm. .. 132 Math 21. joh. 2. In the first place it is declared how josiah after he had found the book of the law, reform the Church. In the second place jehosaphat took away the high places and groves out of juda etc. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias, in repairing the temple and reforming religion. etc. In the. 132. Psalm it is declared with what care David went about to build the temple of God, after that he was once established in his kingdom. In the. 12. of Math. jesus went into the temple, and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple. etc. The like he did in the second of john. All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it. And I pray God make us thankful for the Queen's majesty, who hath not been slack in this point, but hath like a virtuous, religious, and godly prince, in the very entering into her reign, notwithstanding the multitude of her adversaries, both at home and abroad, abolished all superstition, and restored the simplicity of the Gospel. But these men allege these places to the discredit of this reformation, and of the whole government of this Church. How aptly and how truly, let godly, wise, and learned meniudge. Io. Whitgifte. All this is passed over with silence, and nothing said unto it, good or bad. The exposition of the places. Deu. 4. &. 12. quoted by the Admonition. Cap. 6. The first Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO prove that these things only are to be placed in god's Church, The places in the. 4. and. 12. oh Deutero. expounded. which God himself in his word commandeth, is noted the fourth and the twelfth of Deut. You shall put nothing to theword that I command you, neither shall you take any thing therefrom. etc. And in the other place: Whatsoever I command you take heed you do it, thou shalt put nothing thereto, nor take aught therefrom. God in the old law to his people, prescribed perfect and absolute laws, not only moral and judicial, but ceremonial also: neither was there the least thing to be done in the Church omitted in the law. And therefore for them at that time, and during that state, it was not lawful to add any thing, nor to take any thing away no not in ceremonies and other civil laws: now in the time of the Gospel God hath left unto his Church expressed in his word a perfect rule of faith and manners, and sufficient to salvation, and cursed is he that shall add any thing to it, or take any thing from it in that behalf, for therein it is perfec te and absolute. But as he hath left the judicial law to the discretion of the magistrate, to add there unto or take therefrom, or all oer and change the same, so that no law be made against the rule of faith and good manners expressed in the word of God. etc. T. C. Page. 21. Sect 2. Unto the places of Deuteronome, which prove that nothing aught to be done in the Church, but that which God commandeth, and that nothing should be added or diminished. First you answer that that was a precept given to the jews for that time, which had all things even the lest prescribed unto them. I see it is true which is said, that one absurdity granted, a hundred follow. For to (a) A 〈◊〉 perverting of ma ni ell and plain words. make good, that things aught to be done besides the scripture and word of God, you are driven to run into part of the error of the Manichees, which say, that the old testament pertaineth not unto us, nor bindeth not us. For what is it else, than to say that these two places served for the jews time, and under the law? for surely if these two places agreed not unto us in tune of the Gospel, I know none in all the old testament, which do agreed. And I pray you what is here said which S. john in the Apocalypse says not, where he shutteth up the new testament on this sort: I protest unto every man which heareth the prophecy of this book, that whosoever Apoca. 22. addeth any thing to it, the Lord shall add unto him the plagues which are written in it: And whosoever taketh away any thing from it, the Lord shall take away his portion out of the book of life, and out of the things that are written in it? which admonition if you say pertaineth to that book of the Apocalypse only, yet you must remember that the same may be as truly said of any other book of the scripture. Io. Whitgifte. My first answer to that place of Deuteronomie is true, neither can you disprove The first answer justified it by any sound reason or good authority: for if you will have this precept now to be understanded of all the self-same ordinances, and laws, of the which, and for the which, it was at that time given, then must we of necessity keep the ceremonial and judicial precepts of the Law being at that time in force. The which thing as I suppose, no learned man will once imagine, but yet as this precept was then given to them, that they should add nothing to the laws of God then in force, or take any thing from them, so is it perpetual for us also, that we should add nothing to the law of faith and manners, which is likewise perfectly prescribed unto us in the book of God. And thus you see how far I am from the error of the Manichees, and from thinking that the old testament doth not appertain unto us: and yet I am not so jewish, to How far that precept in Deut. is extended. think that we are bond either to the ceremonial or judicial law: and therefore I say that that precept applied unto us, doth not extend any further, than to such things as God hath commawded or forbidden us that be Christians to do in his word. How unjustly therefore you charge me to say, that these two places agreed not unto us under the Gospel, when as I have plainly declared how they agree to them under the law, and to us under the Gospel, let any man judge. The words in the last of the Apocal. although they be properly and namely spoken of that book, yet I am fully persuaded that they may also be affirmed of the whole testament. And I am so far from allowing either addition or detraction, to, or from the word of God, that I utterly condemn as false that which you have setdown before in your book Fol. 13. That many things are both commanded and forbidden, of which there is no express mention in the word, which are as necessarily to be followed or avoided, as Fol. 13. Sect. 2. those whereof express mention is made. Chap. 6. the second Division. T. C. Page. 21. Sect. 3 Then you are driven to say, that the jews under the law, had a more certain direction, and consequently a readier w y, than we have in the time of the Gospel, of the which time the Prophet jet. 31. u. 34 says, that then a man should not teach his neighbour, they shall be so taught of God: as if he should say, that they that live under the Gospel, should be all, in comparison of that which were under the law doctors. And Esay says, that in the days of the Gospel, the people shall not stand Isay. 56. in the outward courts, but he will bring them into the sanctuary, that is to say, that they should be all, for their knowledge as learned as the Levites and priests, which only had entrance into it. Io. Whitgifte. In matters of ceremonies and judicials they had more particular rules prescribed Wherein the Jews had a more certain direction than we. unto them, and a more certain direction. For we have very little in these matters particularly written in the new testament: but the moral law we have as perfect as they had, and in the law of faith, which is the law of the Gospel and the rule of salvation, we do far exceed them. Other meaning than this there cannot (with all the violence that you have) be wrong out of my words. Your places alleged out of the Prophet jeremy and Esay improve nothing that I have spoken, for the Prophet jeremy speaketh of the elect of God, whom he jerem. 3 doth teach and illuminate not only with the outward preaching of his word, but by the marvelous operation of his spirit also. The words of the Prophet Esay (if you Esay. 56. mean the 7. ver. of the. 56. Chap. for else there is no such words there) do signify that God will gather the Gentiles and strangers into his Church, and make no distinction betwixt them and the jews in the time of the Gospel: but how you should gather of that place that the people should be as learned as the Priests and Levites, I cannot conjecture. Neither truly do I know to what purpose this text is alleged, except it be a little by the way, to flatter the people and to claw them. Chap. 6. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 21. Sect. 4. 5. Now if the jews had precepts of every the lest action, which told them precisely how they should walk: how is not their case in that point better than ours, which because we have in many things but general rules, are to seek often times, what is the will of God which we should follow? But let us examine their laws, and compare them with ours in the matters pertaining to the Church: for whereas the question is of the government of the Church, it is very impertinent, that you speak of the iudicialls, as though you had not yet learned, to distinguish between the Church and common wealth. To the ordering and governing of the Church, they had only the moral, and ceremonial law: we have the same moral that they had: what special direction therefore they enjoy by the benefit of that, we have. Io. Whitgifte. The jews as it is confessed by learned men, had their laws more particularly Why the jews had their ceremonies particularly prescribed prescribed unto them, and especially touching Ceremonies, not only because they were prove to Idolatry, but also oftentimes in subjection to Idolatrous princes, where they had occasion offered unto them to worship their false Gods. Therefore a learned interpreter says, Fateor in multis ceremonijs divinitùs mandatis fuisse occupatos, ne alias appeterent. I confess that they were occupied in many ceremonies commanded of Cal. in barmo. in pentateuc. God, lest they should desire other. This than was one, though not the only cause of their ceremonial laws: and in this respect their case was not better, but indeed much more servile and worse than ours, who are delivered from that yoke of ceremonies, and bond only to two, as Aug. Epist. 118. ad januar. saith most easily to be observed, Aug. epist. 118 and most excellent in signification, that is, the supper of the Lord and Baptism. So that you are much deceived if you think us to be in worse case, than they were, because we have not so many particular rules for ceremonies, as they had: for we are delivered from the bondage of Ceremonies, as the Apostle declareth to the Galat. 5. Galat. 5. and therefore M. Caluine in his book against the Anabap. answering this reason of there's (There is more perfection required in the Church of Christ, than there was among Cal. adieu. ana. the jews, and therefore Christians may not use the sword or be magistrates) says on this sort. Hoc quidem verum est, quod ad Ceremonias attinet. This is true as touching ceremonies, meaning that we are not now bond to so many laws of ceremonies, but have freedom and liberty therein. I speak of accidental ceremonies as well as of Sacraments. You say that whereas the question is of the government of the Church. etc. wherein antiquum obtines. For our present question is whither all things to be used in the Church are prescribed in the scripture? And that which I speak of the judicial law I speak it by occasion of the interpretation of these places of Deuteronomie. Howbeit I see no such distance betwixt the Church and the common wealth, but the laws of the one doth and ought to pertain to the other, except you will do as the Papists did, that is, seclude the civil magistrate altogether from meddling in any ecclesiastical matter. And I am well assured that not only the ceremonial and moral law but the judicial also pertained to the government of the Church of the The judicial law pertained to the government of the Church. Israelites, and that these precepts of not adding too or taking from, pertained to that law also. M. Musculus in his common places. Cap. de legibus, divideth the judicial law into two parts, into ecclesiastical and civil: his words be these. Wherefore these precepts may not unfitly (he means, judicial) be divided Muscul. into two kinds, whereof some are ecclesiastical and other civil. M. Beza in like Beza. manner in his book de haereticis a magist: puniend. says, that the judicial law doth partly consist in the external manner of worshipping God, partly in the civil affairs of this life. And M. Caluine. in his Harmo: upon the five books of Moses, expounding this Caluine. verse in the. 23. of Exod. Thou shalt utterly overthrow them and break in pieces their images. Calleth it a politic law, and yet notwithstanding an apendix to the first precept, and added to confirm that which he had spoken before against Idolatry. Therefore to the ordering and governing of the Church, the jews had not only the moral and ceremonial, but the judicial law also. Chap. 6. the fourth Division. T. C. Page. 21. Sect. ult. We have no ceremonies but two, the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptism, and of the Lords supper, and we have as certain a direction, to celebrated them, as they had to celebrated their ceremonies, and fewer and less difficulties can rise of ours, than of there's: and we have more plain and express doctrine to decide our controversies than they had for there's. What hour had they for their ordinary and daily sacrifices? was it not left to the order of the Church? what places were appointed in their several dwellings to hear the word of God preached continually, when they came not to jerusalem? the word was commanded to be preached, but no mention made, what manner of place they should have: where was pulpits commanded or chairs? and yet they had both. Where any form of burial in the law? and yet it is a thing pertaining to the Church, that the dead be after a comely sort buried: where, any order or form of marriage? and yet it is known, they had. It was (which is more) in the discretion of that Church, upon occasion of dearth, or war, plagues, or any other common calamity, to proclaim a fast. Io. Whitgifte. We have no ceremonies which he sacraments, but two, and in them, and for all things How we have but two Ceremonies. pertaining to their substance, we have as certain direction as they had for any of their sacraments. But yet is not every circumstance to be used about the celebrating of them, so particularly, nor so certainly prescribed unto us, as was to them in their ceremonies, sacraments, and sacrifices: for they had every particular circumstance to be used about their sacrifices, sacraments and ceremonies set down unto them, as it is evident Exod. 12. 25. 26. etc. and in Leviticus. We are not bond to any such prescript form of outward ceremonies and circumstances, but have free liberty, not only to appoint, but also to altar and change the same, as shall be thought most convenient: so that nothing be done against the word of God, and that the general 1. Cor. 14. rule be observed. 1. Cor. 14. that all things be done decently and in order. All this therefore that you speak of hour, place, and of the form of burial, and of marriage. etc. infirmeth nothing that I have said, for these be circumstances not used in the service of God, but in other actions: and I speak of such ceremonies and circumstances, as are used in the Church, about the service and worshipping of God, which were to the jews particularly prescribed (as appeareth in the places before alleged) but be not so to us. Chapter. 6. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page. 22. Sect. 1. 2. I will not be long, whereas you say, that they had nothing but was determined by the law: and we have many things undetermined and left to the order of the Church. I will offer for one that you shall bring that we have left to the order of the Church, to show you that they had twenty, A large offer but not so soon per form. which were undecided of, by the express word of God. For as their ceremonies and Sacraments are multiplied above ours, so grew the number of those cases, which were not determined by any express word, and therefore I will conclude (a) Mark these words. that for somuch as we have the same 〈◊〉 to direct us in the service of God, which they had, besides that, a noble addition of the new testament, to make things more manifest, and to bring greater light unto the old testament, we have also precise direction of our religion as they had, and therefore those places of Deut. stand in as great force now touching the government of the Church, as they did then. And as for the judicial law, for as much as there are some of them made in regard of the region where they were given, and of the people to whom they were given, the Prince and Magistrate keeping the substance and equity of them (as it were the marrow) may change the circumstances of them, as the times and places, and manners of the people shall require. But to say that any magistrate can save the life of blasphemers, conteniptuous and stubborn Idol ters, murderers, adulterers, incestuous people, and such like, which God by his judicial law hath commanded to be put to death, I do utterly deni , and am ready to prove, if that pertained to this question. And therefore although the judicial laws are permitted to the discretion of the Prince and Magistrate, yet not so generally, as you seem to affirm, and as I have often times said, that not only it must not be done, against the word, but according to the word, and by it. Io. Whitgifte. Surely if you can show me twenty things to be done of them, in the service of God or discipline of the Church, left to the order of the Church, and undetermined in the law, for one that I can show left to the order of our Church, you can do more than any man that I know, hath either spoken or written. Musculus Lo. co. after that he hath made a particular Musc. loc. come. tit. de. legib. recital of the ceremonial laws, saith that God did therefore appoint unto them such a number of Ceremonies, because they should not invent any other, seeing they had Ceremonies enough whereby they might be exercised, and as it were by a certain kind of schooling might be instructed in the spiritual sense. To our discretion is left as I have said, the most of the circumstances pertaining to both the sacraments, most of all external rites, ceremonies, and other things that pertain to comeliness and order yea and the disposition of many things also which appertain to the external discipline, and government of the Church: which are to be varied according to time, people, and place, as shall hereafter be proved. If you be able to show that the same liberty was left unto them, in so many things you shall do more than I can conceive. But admttte all this to be true, that you say, there can be nothing spoken more directly The assertion of T. C. directly eth the Answer. for the justifying of my cause. For if the Israelites notwithstanding these places of Deutero. had liberty to order things in the Church not commanded or prescribed unto them in the word of God, then do the Authors of the Admonition unaptly use these places of Deuteronomie: to prove that those things only are to be used and placed in the Church, which God himself in his word hath commanded. For if the jews (notwithstanding these precepts) did lawfully use those things that were not in the word commanded, without adding to the word, or taking from it, surely we may do so in like manner. And thus have you taken much pains in justifying that cause, which you would so gladly overthrow. Where you say, that we have the same laws to direct us in the service of God, that they had, The assertion of T. C. tendeth to judaisme. if you mean the same moral laws you say truly, but nothing to the purpose: if you mean the same ceremonial laws (which properly are said to be laws directing them in the service of God) then do you judaizare play the Iew. And certainly I marvel what you mean by this saying, seeing that you know our external manner and kind of worshipping of God to be far distant from there's: and our sacraments (though spiritually the same) yet both in number, form, matter, observation, and kind of signification, much differing from them, and especially seeing that their ceremonial law is utterly abolished. Neither do I well understand what your meaning is when you add, Besides that a noble addition of the new testament, to make things more manifest, and to bring a greater light unto the old testament. For if you mean that the new testament is added to the ceremonial law, that cannot be so, for it is the end of the Ceremonial law, and doth utterly abrogate it. Name inis legis Christus. etc. Christ is the end of the law. For as well the figures as the promises contained in Rom. 10. the law and the Prophets, are fulfilled in the new Testament by the coming Luke. 24. of Christ, as he himself saith, Luke. 24. If you mean that it is added to the moral law, that is also untrue, for it only explaineth it, it addeth nothing unto it. In deed it bringeth a great light to the old Testament, because all things are there fulfilled which were prophe ied of, and prefigured in the old Testament. M. Calvin Calvin. inst. Institu. Cap. 3. Sect. 9 saith, that to think Christ to have added any thing to the law is most pernicious. I must crave pardon of the Reader, for making such excursions out of the way, Whether the Magistrate be bound to observe the judicial law of Moses. for I am compelled to follow you, which interlace your book with such by▪ matters, and those so suspicious and dangerous, that I can not safely pass them over with silence. And even now again do you enter into a strange and dangerous opinion in my judgement: for you would have the civil Magistrate bound to observe all the judicial laws of Moses, except such as were made in respect of the region where they were given, and of the people to whom they were given. Of the which laws the Magistrate you say, may only change the circumstances, as the times, and places, and manners of the people shall require. But you utterly deni , and are ready to prove, if that pertained to th' s question, that any Magistrate can save the life of blasphemers, contemptuous and stubbo ne Idolaters, murderers, adulterous people, and such like, which God by his judicial law hath commanded to be put to death. howsoever you pass this matter over as impertinent to this question, yet for as The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the assertion of T. C. much as you have here set it down (and I am fully persuaded that it is untrue) I mind to touch it something, and to utter the reasons of my persuasions. I leave it to the consideration of those that know the laws, and state of the Realne, and especially such as have the chief government and care of the same, what lieth hid under this your opinion. First, all the laws of this land, that be contrary to these judicial laws of Moses, must be abrogated: The Prince must be abridged of that prerogative which she hath in pardoning such as by the law be condemned to dye: the punishments of death for felony must be mitigated according to Moses law, which doth by other means punish the same, Exod. 22. To be short, all things must be transformed: Exod. 22. Lawyers must cast away their huge volumes, and multitude of cases, and content themselves with the books of Moses: we of the Clergy would be the best judges, and they must require the law at our hands. Deutero. 17. verse. 8. And so Deut. 17. while we make them believe that we seek for equality among ourselves, we seek in deed regal dominion over them. Look Deuter. 17. verse. 12. But to omit all these considerations, which I leave to those to whom they do especially pertain, I will show as briefly as I can, how far this opinion is from true divinity. First, besides all those places of Scripture, which make generally for the abrogation The judicial law abrogat . of the whole law: we have especial places for the judicial law, and namely those where Christ maketh laws of divorcement for adultery. Math. 5. and. 19 which Mat. 5. &. 19 were altogether needless, if she that is taken in adultery should of necessity be stoned to death, according to the law of Moses. Aug. ad Pollentium de adult. coniug. li. 2. cap. 6. 7. 8. &. 14. Augustine. proveth by that which is written of Christ. john. 8. touching the woman deprehended john. 8. in adultery, and brought unto him by the Scribes & Pharisies: that the wife, taken in adultery aught not to be punished with death, but suffered to live that she might be reconciled to her husband, or at the lest repent. Cyril also upon the. 11. of levit. says, that though the punishment of death was according to the law of Moses appointed for adultery, cyril. and certain other crimes, yet among Christians there is no such commandment in force. Musculus in his common places, tit. de legib. speaking of the law, saith thus: Muscul. They ask the question whether the whole law be abrogated: we answer, if whole Moses gave place to Christ, then hath his whole law given place to the law of Christ. And a little after: The commandments of the law are Moral, judicial, Ceremonial. That the Ceremonial commandments have ceased it is evident, forsomuch as the Priesthood of the law, to the which the ceremonies were annexed is abrogated by the Priesthood of Christ, according to the order of Melchizedech: and that the judicials also are ceased it doth herein appear, for that the whole order of government of Israel, which was requisite unto the inhabiting of the land of promise, hath from that time ceased, wh as they being expelled, began to devil amongst the Gentiles without a king, without governors, without a Priest, and without a law. Hemingius in his Encber: is of the same judgement: his words be these. There is also Hemingius. the judicial law, which expired with the common wealth of Moses: so that it doth not bind any man of necessity, but so far only, as some portion of it doth pertain to the law of nature (as the law against incestuous marriages. levit. 18.) and so much of it likewise, as the civil Magistrate shall admit for policy. I omit that place of M. Calvin, which is written in his Harmony upon the. 5. books Calvin. of Moses, where he speaking of these laws. Exod. 23. Deut. 12. Num. 3 . which were given for the breaking of Images, destroying of places where idolatry was committed etc. says, that they were but temporal exercises, to keep the people in obedience. etc. And in the same book, speaking of the. 7▪ of Deut. The graven Images of their Gods shall Deut. 7. you burn with fire, and covet not the silver and gold that is on them, etc. says, Although this was a politic law, and given only to the ancient people for a time, yet hereby we may gather how detestable Idolatry is. etc. But of all other places that is most evident which he hath in his Institu. Cap. 20. Sect. 13. 14. 15. and therefore I will rehearse it more at large. Sunt qui rectè compositam rempub. negent. etc. There are certain which deny that Calvinus. common wealth to be well ordered, which omitting the politic laws of Moses, is ruled by the common laws of the Gentiles. The which opinion how dangerous and seditious it is, ☞ let other men consider, it is enough for me to have declared, that it is both false & foolish. But that usual division is to be observed, which divideth the whole law of God delivered by Moses, into manners, ceremonies, & judgements, and every part thereof is diligently to be considered, that we may understand what pertaineth unto us thereof, and what doth not. In the mean time, let no man be troubled with this, that both the judicials & ceremonies did appertain unto manners: for the ancient fathers, the inventors of this division, although they were not ignorant, that these two latter parts were occupied about manners, yet (because they might be altered and abrogated without any prejudice unto manners) they called them not moral. They called that first part properly by that name moral, without the which the true holiness of manners, and the immutable rule of living could not well consist. And again. The law of God forbiddeth to steal: what punishment was appointed for theft in the policy of the jews, appeareth▪ in Exod. The most ancient laws of other nations Exod. 22. punished theft with double: they which followed afterward made a difference betwixt open theft, and that which was secret: others condemned the thieves with exile & banishment: others adjudged them to be whipped: and last of all, others, to be put to death. False witness amongst the jews was punished with equal pain in respect of the hurt: in other places only with infamy: in other places with hanging. etc. All laws jointly do revenge murder with blood, but yet with divers kinds of death. In some places there are grievouser pains appointed for adulterers, in other places those which are more easy: yet we see how they all by this diversity of punishment, tend to one end, for they all with one consent, do give sentence of punishment against those offences, which are condemned by the eternal law of God: to wit, murder, theft, and ltrie, false witness, but they agreed not all in the manner of the punishment. Neither truly is it necessary or expedient that they should agreed herein. ☞ There is a country which should out of hand be destroyed with thieves and slaughter, if it did not with horrible example deal very sharply with murderers. There is a so some time which requireth the augmentation of the sharpness of punishment, and some people very prove unto some certain sin, except they be with great rigour kept in awe. He is then very evil affected, and envieth the public commodity, that is offended with this diversity, which is most meet to retain the observation of the law of God. For that which some men object, that by this means injury is done to the law of God, while it being abrogated, other laws are preferred before it, is most vain. For other laws are not preferred before it, but allowed, not by any simple comparison in respect of God's law, but according to the condition of time, place, and nation: neither can that be said to be abrogated, ☞ which was never prescribed unto us, for God delivered it by the hands of Moses, not for all nations, but particularly for the jews. etc. M. Beza likewise in his book de haer Magist. puniend. of this matter writeth thus: We acknowledge those politic laws to be prescribed, Beza. only to the country of the jews: neither are we so unskilful that we would have Moses common wealth or government called back again, as though it were not lawful for every Magistrate within his own dominion to make laws in civil matters. And a little after. The judicial laws were framed only for one nation. Therefore seeing they were never written for us, they can not be said to be abrogated. And again. Only the Israelites were bond to the judicial laws, that is, those that devil in jury, because they were made fit for that common wealth only. And after that he hath showed by an example of the law for theft, that that manner & kind of punishment, did only bind the Israelites, & that other Magistrates in their countries for good causes may appoint a sharper kind of punishment for the same, he concludeth thus: Lex enim illa Mosis Idem. quatenùs poenae modum praescribit, alijs gentibus neque unquam fuit posita, neque nunc est propriè abrogata. That law of Moses in so much as it prescribeth the manner of punishment, was neither ☜ at any time given to other nations, neither is it now properly abrogated. So that now they that be disposed may perceive, how this doctrine of yours not only tendeth to the overthrowing of states of common wealths, but is contrary also to the truth, and opinion of learned men, and those especially of whom you yourself make greatest account. Therefore it is true that I have said in my answer to the Admonition, that is, The judicial law to be left to the discretion of the Magistrate to add to it, or to take from it, or to altar and change it, as shall be thought most fit for the time, manner of the country, and condition of the people, as M. Calvin also very aptly noteth in the very end of that. 15. section before rehearsed. Chap. 6. the 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 31. Lin. 21▪ So hath he left authority unto his Church to make laws, and appoint orders & ceremonies, as shall from time to time be thought most expedient and profitable for the same, so that nothing be done contrary to his word, or repugnant to the same. And this authority hath the Church used, even from the Apostles time, as it is manifest, both by the scriptures. Act. 6. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 11. & other ecclesiastical stories and ancient fathers, as is before by me proved. john. Whitgifte. To this nothing is answered. Chap. 6. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 31. Sect. 1 But to come to the words of Deuteronomie themselves, what is it to add to the word of God, or to take from it? Truly to think otherwise, or teach otherwise of God than he hath in his word revealed: Those take from the word, that believe less than in the word is expressed: those add to the word, first, which teach or decree any thing either in matters of faith or ceremonies, contrary to the word. Secondly, those that make any thing necessary unto salvation, not contained in the word. Thirdly, such as make any religion, or opinion of merit in any thing that they themselves have invented besides the word of God. Last of all they add to the word, which forbidden that for a thing of itself unlawful, which Gods word doth not forbidden, and make that sin which Gods word doth not make sin. But such as truly & sincerely embrace the word of God, and admit nothing contrary unto it, if in government & ceremonies without any wicked & superstitious opinion they appoint or retain such as they know not to be against the word of God, and profitable for the present state of the Church, can not truly be said to add any thing to the word of God, or take any thing from it, though the same be not expressed in the word. T. C. Pag. 22. Sect. 3 After you define what it is to take from, and put to the word of God, wherein not to speak of your wonderful * There is no great dexterity required to perform this. dexterity in defining, which can define two things, and those contrary (putting to, and taking fro) with one difference, which Zeno himself could never do, you leave out that which Moses especially meant to comprehend, which is, not to do more, nor to do less than he hath commanded. And as for your division, it hath as evil success here, as in other places, for when it is a great fault in dividing to have either too much or too little, you fault in both, for where as you say, they add, which teach or decree. etc. Besides that you leave out, which Moses ment, you forget also that, which yourself had said, which had placed adding too, not only in teaching and decreeing, but in thinking or believing. And whereas you make four parts of your division, the three last are found to be all under the first member, which is to make things of faith and ceremonies, contrary to the word, and so your division is not only faulty, but no division at all. * All this is spoken in contempt of the person, not in defence of the cause. The which thing I could have easily forgiven you, and passed by as a thing not very commendable to travel to show the poverty of those things, which do sufficiently of themselves (as it were) proclaim their own shame: but that it grieved me to see a book lengthened with first, second, third, last, as though every one of them contained some notable new matter, which needed an Oyes before it, to stir up the attention of the reader, when there is nothing but a many of words without matter, as it were a sort of fair empty apothecary's boxes, without any stuff in them. And for that you are so hard with other men for their Logic, I will desire the reader to pardon me, if I pursue these things more narrowlier than some peradventure will like of, or I myself delight in. And so for any definition or division that I can perceive, it standeth fast, that nothing is to be done in the Church of God, but by his commandment and word directing the s me. It is true in deed, if they be not against the word of God, and profitable for the Church, they are to be received, as those things which God by the Church doth command, and as grounded of the word of God. But there is the question, and therefore you taking this as a thing granted always, do always fall into that which you charge other with, of the failation of Petitio principij. Io. Whitgifte. There is neither definition nor division here that can please you: but what remedy? when you jests be uttered, and you a little sported yourself, & the matter cometh to trial, there appeareth very slender corrections: I have after my rude & simple manner declared what it is to add to the word of God, or to take from it, and have Two contraties may be defined with one difference. not sought for any exact definition. But yet (by your leave) two contraries may be defined by one general difference, when we talk of those things which be common to them both, and do not seek to separate them from among themselves, but from all other things, that be not of the same kind. So is virtue and vice, by this difference sensìm acquiri, & sensìm amitti, separated from all other that be not sub habitu: As Homo and brutum by this difference sensibile, be separated from all other creatures that be not under Animal. It is a common rule, that the definition of that which is called genus, doth agree to every part & member under it, which we call species, be they contrary, repugnant, or otherwise disagréeing the one from the other, howsoever. Therefore declaring generally what it is to add to the word, or to take from the word, I say it is to think otherwise, or to teach otherwise of God, than he hath in his word revealed. Which in genere doth aptly expound them both. For as well he that addeth to the word, as he that taketh from the word, doth think or teach of God otherwise than he hath in his word revealed. So you see that a man of small dexterity, in defining may do that, which you thought Zeno himself could not perform. But what needed all this pastime of yours? do I not immediately after severally declare both what it is to add to the word, & what also to take from it? are you able to prove that the expositions which I set down be not true? can you better them? Will you still more and more declare your quarrel to be rather against the person, than the cause? You say I leave out that which Moses especially ment to comprehend, which is, not to do more, nor to do less than he hath commanded. Surely if you were disposed to deal modestly and sincerely as it behoveth you in so weighty a matter, you would not thus wittingly and willingly seek occasion of quarreling: whether that which you say is left out, must not of recessitie be included in those words that I have spoken of adding to the word, and taking from it, or not, I leave to the indifferent reader to consider. Touching my division, I say as I did of the definition. I am not curious in dividing, but I plainly and after my rude manner tell how many ways a man may add to the word of God. Neither doth he always divide, that showeth how many ways a thing may be done, and yet is there nothing left out necessary to be expressed. For this that you speak of thinking and believing, is included in the third kind of adding to the word. The three last kinds are not found to be under the first▪ for it is not all one to teach or decree any thing contrary to the word: to make any thing necessary to salvation not contained in the word: to put any religion or opinion of merit in any thing that men themselves have invented besides the word: and to forbid that as unlawful which God doth not forbidden. In the first kind is invocation of Saints, worshipping of Images. etc. which be directly contrary to the express word of God. In the second is that decree of Pope Boniface, which maketh it necessary to salvation to be subject to the Bishop of Rome, and such like, whereof there is no mention in the Scriptures. In the third kind are all outward Ceremonies invented by man, wherein any opinion of worshipping or merit is put: as holy bread, holy water, and other Ceremonies of that sort. In the last part is the decree of Pope Nicholas, Dist. 22. omnes, where it is decreed, that he which infringeth the privileges of the Church of Rome, is an heretic. And in this sort do those add also to the word, which condemn the use of things indifferent as unlawful, for in so doing they make that sin, which the word of God doth not make sin. Again that there is a great difference in the parts of my division, and that they are not confounded, you might have perceived if it had pleased you with better advise to have weighed them: for things may be decreed contrary to the word, and yet not made necessary unto salvation. Things may be made as necessary to salvation, which of themselves are not contrary to the word, and yet not contained in the word: Men may have an opinion of Religion and merit in such things as they think not to be of necessity to salvation. To be short, men may make that sin, which the word of God maketh not sin, as all those do which forbidden the use of indifferent things, and make the same unlawful as I have said before. You see now that there is no one part of this division (as you call it) which doth not include something not contained in the other parts: and therefore all those unseemly and immodest taunts and words might have been forborn. I ask no forgiveness of you for any thing that I have written: But I beseech God forgive you your outrageous contemptes, and unchristian flouts and jests, where with your book is more pestered, than any of Hardinges is, where he showeth himself most scurrilous. But I will omit them all, and only desire the Reader to consider of what spirit they come, and in both our writings to respect the matter, not the person. Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters, and then judge of my unskilful The Replier hath spent many words in confuting that which he himself confesseth. dividing and defining. Here now I would gladly know what T. C. hath proved against the thing that I have here written, or how he hath justified the proposition of the Admonition which I have refelled: for the sum of all is this. The authors of the Admonition say, that those things only are to be placed in the Church, which God himself in his word commandeth. This I confess to be true in matters of salvation and damnation. But I say it is untrue in matters of ceremonies, rites, orders, discipline, and kind of government: which being external matters, and alterable, are to be altered and changed, appointed and abrogated, according to time, place, and person, so that nothing be done against the word of God. And T. C. confesseth page. 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certain things are left to the order of the Church, because they are of that nature, which are varied by times, places, people, and other circumstances, and so could not at once be set down and established for ever, and yet so left to the order of the Church, as that it do nothing against the rules aforesaid. The same doth he affirm in effect in this place. Now I pray you tell me, what difference is there in our words? he saith: that certain things are left to the order of the Church. etc. so that nothing be done against the rules aforesaid: And I say, that the Church hath authority to appoint orders, rites, ceremonies. etc. so that nothing be done against the word of God. In deed he goeth much further in this matter than I do, for where I say, The Scripture expresseth all things necessary to salvation, he affirmeth, that many things are both commanded and forbidden. etc. as I have before noted, and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be seen page. 13. of his book. But to end this matter, I have justified my assertion by the scriptures. 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of justinus Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, basil, Augustine, etc. Likewise by the practices of Counsels, the report of Historiographers, as Socrates and Sozomenus. Finally by the judgement of late writers, M. Calvin and Bucer. Now will I also add a few words for the further confirmation of the same, and so end this question. ¶ The opinion of other late writers of things indifferent. The. 7. Chapter. Zuinglius in his book de baptis. after that he had declared how the Scripture containeth Zuinglius. all things necessary unto salvation, he showeth, That in external things and matters of ceremonies, many things are to be used in the Church, which be not contained in the Scriptures. And speaking of this place. Philip. 3. (If any think otherwise, God will also reveal the same unto you: nevertheless, in that whereunto we are come, let us proceed by one rule, or agreed among ourselves) saith, That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else, than of external ceremonies and rites, the use and administration whereof, the same Apostle in that place affirmeth, to be in our will and power, so that we do nothing repugnant to the commandment of God. Neither trouble the public peace (whereof we ought to have especial regard) for external things. These be the very words of Zuinglius, in the which there is first to be noted, the interpretation of the words of the Apostle, Philip. 3. Secondly, that he useth Collections out of Zuinglius. this exception, So that we do nothing repugnant to the commandment of God, which T. C. so much misliketh. The same Zuinglius in the same book, verifieth in plain words that which I before have, touching a negative argument from the authority of the Scriptures. Peter Martyr upon the. 1. Corinth. 1. writeth, That there be three kinds of traditions, P. Martyr. one expressed in the Scriptures: an other plain repugnant to the word of God: The third neither contrary to the word of God, nor yet necessarily joined to the same: in the which we must obey the Church, These three cautions being observed: First, that they be not obtruded as worship of God, or peculiar holiness, but as pertaining to order, and the civil commodity of the Church, and to comeliness in divine actions: for all things be sufficiently contained in Scriptures that pertain to the worshipping of God, and holiness. Secondly, that they be not counted so necessary, but that they may be altered, if time require. Let the Church keep her interest and authority in these indifferent things, to appoint what shall be thought most necessary and meet to edifying. Last of all, that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them. Thus far Martyr. Gualther in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth. after that he hath declared Gualther. the diversity of rites used in diverse Churches, concludeth on this sort. Wherefore S. Augustine writing to januarius, after that he had laid forth diverse ceremonies of Churches observed in his time, did very well think that this should be the most safe rule unto Christian men, if they did frame themselves, unto those Churches, whereunto they should come, in those things which might be done without any prejudice unto faith and godliness, his words are these: There is in these things (meaning customs and rites) no better rule or instruction for a grave and wise Christian, than that he do after that manner the which he seethe used of the Church unto the which he shall peradventure come. etc. The which moderation if all men would use at this day, there would be less contention in the Church, neither should Christian liberty be abridged by the superstitious traditions of men. But why do they condemn whole Churches, for indifferent things, which if they would obey S. Paul, aught to apply themselves to the weakness of every one. Beza in an Epistle of his, prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Helvetia Beza. saith, That all rites and ceremonies are not to be received without exception, which the apostolic Church itself hath used, either as profitable or necessary for their times: and in his book called confessio Christ. fidei. cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Counsels and Idem. Synods was, to make rules of ecclesiastical discipline, and to appoint the government of the Church, according to the diversity of time, place and people: For it is necessary that in the house of the Lord all things should be done in order: of the which order there is one general reason in the word of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same form, agreeing to all circumstances. And again in the same Chapter he saith, The rules or canons (of rites and Idem. orders in the Church) have respect to comeliness in external things, and therefore they be neither general for the most part, nor perpetual: for that which is profitable in some place, in other some places would rather hurt: and moreover the diverse respects of the time are such, that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained, must of necessity sometime be abrogated: whereof it comes to pass, that there is not only so great variety in the old canons, but contrariety also. Again in the same Chapter. We must Idem. not always look what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica, in the government of the Church, seeing there be most diverse circumstances, and therefore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeal, all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one, and the same form. etc. In the confession of the Churches in Helvetia. etc. it is thus written: Men shall easily Confess. ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also, that we do not by any wicked schism, sever or cut off ourselves, from Christ's holy Churches of Germany, France, England, and other Christian nations, but that we well agreed with all and every one of them, in the truth of Christ, which here we have acknowledged. For albeit there is some variety in diverse Churches, about the uttering and setting forth of their doctrine, and about rites and ceremonies, which they receive as a mean to edify their Churches, yet that variety never seemed to minister cause of dissension and schism in the Church: for in such matters the Churches of Christ have always used their liberty, as we may read in the Ecclesiastical history. I omit here the confession of the Church of Wirtenberge, and the testimonies of sundry other notable learned men. I know no learned writer, that doth deny the Church to have authority in appointing rites, ceremonies, discipline, and kind of government according to the place, time, people, and other circumstances, though the same be not expressed in the word of God, so that it do nothing repugnant to the same. But what need I labour so much in a matter confessed by him, that would seem to overthrow it: for if the jews had twenty things left to their order in the Church for our Pag. 21. Sect. one (as T. C. hath affirmed) and yet this commandment not broken Deu. 4. &. 12. Nihil adds verbo. etc then may the Church of Christ use her liberty in like manner, without any breach of the same. Wherefore to conclude. I now refer it to the judgement of the Reader, whether if be true or not, that I have affirmed against the Authors of the Admonition: to wit that those things only are not to be brought in, or used in the Church, which the Lord himself in his word hath commanded, but that of necessity in external things, and outward government, the Church hath authority to determine according to time, place, person. etc. though the same be not commanded or expressed in Scripture, so that it be not repugnant to the word. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. &. Pag. 33. Sect. 1 The other places noted in this margin, as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures unchristianly abused by the Admonition. 2. and the rest are not alleged to prove any thing in controversy, but only without judgement placed in the margin to make a show: how aptly they be applied I leave to the consideration of the diligent Reader. This one thing I can not but marvel at, that these fellows so please themselves in the platform of their Church, and attribute so much thereunto, that they exhort, nay rather charge the court of Parliament, with perfect hatred to detest the present state of the Church, & with singular love to embrace that which they prescribe in this Book: and to move them rather to this perfect hatred of us, and singular love of themselves, they use the authority of the. 31. and 139. Psalm. In the one, David saith that he hath hated them that give themselves to deceitful vanities, because he trusteth in the Lord. In the other speaking of the contemners of God, of wicked and bloody men, Mark this spirit. and of such as blaspheme God, and be his enemies, he saith, I hate them with an unfeigned hatred. etc. As though all such as like or allow of the present state of the Church of this Realm of England, gave themselves to deceitful vanities, were contemners of God, wicked and bloody men, blasphemers of God, and his enemies. I will not aggravate this blasphemy of there's: let Prince, Nobles, and all other lovers of God & his word, consider diligently this spirit, and in time prevent the burning malice of the same: no Turk, no jew, no Papist could possibly have spoken more spitefully of this Church and state: but such is the spirit of arrogancy. To the like effect they allege the. 15. of john. 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. &. 11. as though they only had the word of God, and were of the Church, and we contemners and reiecters of the same. O where is humility? Truly if these men be not by discipline bridled, they will work more harm to this Church than ever the Papist did. Io. Whitgifte. To this there is not one word spoken. Admonition. May it therefore please your wisdoms to understand, we in England are so far off, from having a Church rightly reform, according to the prescript of God's word, that as yet we are not come to the outward face of the same. For to speak of that wherein all consent, and whereupon all writers accord. The outward marks whereby a true Christian Church is known, are preaching of the word purely, ministering of the Sacraments sincerely, and Ecclesiastical discipline, which consists in admonition and correcting of faults severely. Touching the first, namely the ministery of the word, althougher must be confessed, that the substance of doctrine by many delivered is sound and good, yet herein it faileth, that neither the Ministers thereof are according to God's word proved, elected, called or ordained: nor the function in such sort so narrowly looked unto, as of right it aught, and is of necessity required. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 34. &. 35. The proposition that these libelers would prove is, that we in England are so far from having a Church rightly reform according to the prescript of God's word, that as yet we are not come to the outward face of the same. For proof hereof they use this argnment: There be three out ward marks whereby a true Christian Church is known: preaching of the word purely, ministering of the Sacraments sincerely: and ecclesiastical discipline, which consists in Admonition and correction of faults severely. But this Church of England (for so in effect they say) is void of all these, Ergo it hath not so much as the external face of a Church. To prove that the word of God is not preached truly, they reason on this sort: The Ministers of the word are not according to gods word, proved, elected, called or ordained, nor the function in such sort so narrowly looked unto, as of right it aught, & is of necessity required: And therefore the word of God not truly preached. Here All points of doctrine pure in this church. (thanks be to God) they allege not one article of Faith, or point of doctrine, nor one piece of any substance, to be otherwise taught and allowed of in this Church (for not every man's folly is to be ascribed to the whole Church) than by the prescript word of God may be justified, neither can they. Now how this conclusion followeth (though the antecedent were true) let those judge that be learned. The Ministers are not rightly proved and elected. etc. An unapt r son. Ergo the word of God is not truly preached: how wicked so ever the man is, howsoever he intrude himself into the ministery, yet may he preach the true word of God. For the truth of the doctrine doth not in any respect depend upon the goodness or evilness of the man: I pray you how were you, and some other of your adherentes called, elected, & c? But to come to the purpose: They would prove that the Ministers of the word in this Church of England, are not according to god's word proved, elected, called or ordained. What force and pith is in their arguments, shall appear in the several answers to every one of them. This one thing I must let you understand, that these men seek to deface this Church of England, by the self same grounds that the Papists do: although by another kind of proof. For what have the Papists else to say, but that we have no Ministers, because they be not rightly called, and so consequently no word, no Sacraments, no discipline, no Church. And certainly if it were well examined, I believe it would fall out, that the Authors of this Book have conspired with the Papists to overthrow (if they could) the state both of this Church and Realm, howsoever subtly they seem to detest Papistry. T. C. Page 23. Sect. 1, 2, 3. (a) Where do I 〈◊〉 that they say so? Where in effect do they say, that the Church of England is void of preaching▪ and ministering of the Sacraments? is it all one to say, that the word in the Church of England is not purely preached, and the Sacraments sincerely, and discipline severely administered, with this, that the Church of England is void of all these? Again, where do they reason thus, that the word of GOD is not truly preached, because the Ministers are not rightly proved, and elected, when as they have not one word of true preaching? Is it all one to say it is not purely preached, and to say, it is not truly preached? saint Paul to the A cavil. Philipp. is glad that the Gospel be preached, although it be not purely, but he would never have been glad, that it should have been preached falsely or not truly. Again he inveigheth not against the false Apostles, in the Church of Corinthe, because they preached the word untruly, but because they using painted words and affected eloquence, and making a great show of learning, and tongues, did not preach the Gospel sincerely: so that you see that it is one thing, not to preach truly, and an other thing not to preach purely: and so you see their reason is not so evil, for the want of a good calling may give occasion to say, that the word of God is not sincerely taught, because there is not a lawful and ordinary calling. For although for the substance of doctrine, and the manner of handling of it, they that saint Paul speaketh to, of the Philipp. did not fault, yet Saint Paul saith that they did not preach purely, because they did it of contention, or of envy, which was no fault in the doctrine, but in him that taught. Therefore let men judge how just your wayghtes are, that expound not purely not truly, and whither this be to confute other men's arguments, rather than to skirmish with your own shadows. I know no Papists reason thus, that because we have no Ministers, therefore no word, no Sacrament, no discipline, no Church, For they deny that we have the word or Sacraments, because we hold not their word and sacrifice: but if there be that so reason, yet these men that you charge, have neither any such antecedent, or such a consequent. For they never said that there is no ministery in England, nor yet do ever conclude, that there is no word, no sacraments, no discipline, nor Church. For in saying that the face of the Church doth not so much appear (for so the whole process of their book doth declare that they mean, when they say that we have not scarce the face of the Church) they grant that we have the Church of God: but that for want of those ornaments, which it should have, and through certain the deformed rags of Popery, which it should not have, the Church doth not appear in her native colours, and so beautiful, as it is meet she should be prepared, to so glorious a husband as is the son of God. Say you certainly, and do you believe that the authors of this book, are conspired with the Papists, to overthrow this Church and Realm? Now certainly I will never do that injury unto them, as once to go about to purge them of so manifest slanders, nor never be brought by the outrage of your speeches to prove that noonday is not midnight: and therefore as for you, I will set your conscience and you together. The reader I will desire, not to think it a strange thing: for it is no other than hath happened to the servants of God, even from those which have professed the same religion, which they did, as it appeareth in the. 37. of jeremy, which was accused of certain of the Israelites, that he had conspired with the babylonians, their mortal enemies, and laid to his charge that he was going to them, when he was going to Benjamin. Io. Whitgifte, Who is so blind as he that will not see? Do they not in plain words say That the outward marks whereby a true Christian Church is known, are preaching of the word purely: ministering the Sacraments sincerely, and Ecclesiastical discipline. & c? Is not their whole drift in the Admonition to prove, That neither the word is preached purely, nor the Sacraments sincerely ministered. etc. in this Chnrche of England? and what do T. C. willuigly perverteth the words of the Answer. I otherwise report of them? be not my words plain? where do I affirm that they should say that the Church of England is void of preaching and ministering the Sacraments? But let the Reader consider my words, and accordingly judge of your plain dealing. Where I writ that they in effect say the Church of England is void of these, I am sure you will refer, these, to that which went before, that is, preaching of the word purely, ministering of the Sacraments sincerely, and ecclesiastical discipline, etc. neither can you otherwise do though you would wrist my words never so violently: and therefore that which I report of them, is, that they say this Church of England neither hath the word purely preached, nor the sacraments sincerely ministered. etc. I make no great difference betwixt purely, and truly, neither doth it follow Purely and truly. that the word of God is truly preached always when the truth is preached. For as a man may do justa, not justè, lust things and yet not justly: so may the truth be preached, and yet not truly. A man may do that which is just unwittingly, or for gain, or for pleasure, or for malice, but then he doth it not justly, Quid non ex babitu & animo: Even so a man may preach the true word of God, of affection, of contention, ambition, for profit. etc. but then he doth not preach it truly. So that your distinction betwixt purely and truly is to no purpose. Neither doth Saint Paul help you any thing at all, but is clean centrarye 1. Phi. vers. 18. unto you, for in the▪ 18. verse of the first Chapter to the Philip. these be his words. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ etc. which in the Bible Printed at Geneva is thus translated: What then? yet christ is preached all manner ways, whether it be under a pretence, or sincerely. So you see that there is no difference made betwixt sincerely and truly, for the Greek word signifieth truly. And Master Beza in his notes upon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expounding 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely, saith thus Non pu oh scilicet animo, quùm alio qui pura Beza. esset doctrina, to weet, not with a pure mind, seeing that otherwise the doctrine is pure. so that these adverbs purely and truly in this place are referred not to the doctrine, but to mind of him that teacheth▪ I would wish that both you and others would cease from drawing the Scriptures to your phantasyes and affections. That this is one reason of the Papists to prove that we are not the Church, because we have no true ministery, I marvel you can be ignorant, seeing there is nothing often ere in their mouths. Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in like manner or not, tell me, when you have well considered these words of there's in the Epistle to the Reader. Either must we have a right-ministery of God, and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set up (both which we lack) or else there can be no right Religion. Likewise when you have without partiality viewed the rest of their book: Truly I think him to be more than blind, that seeth not this to be their kind of reasoning. Their meaning is plain, and the second Admonition maketh it plainer, howsoever you would seem to colour, and cloak the matter, for what other meaning can it have to say that we have no right▪ Religion, and to speak so bitterly against the whole form of the Church, and the most of such things as be in the same? I do believe certainly that there is some Papistical practitioners among you, neither is it strange, for so conspired they with the Anabaptistes also as I have declared, and the Anabaptistes hated them, as much as you, and pretended the sunplicitie of the word of God as much as you: and both in pretence of zeal, of purity of life, and other qualities, for the most part were equal unto you. And though the Prophet jeremy were unjustly accused, yet doth not that improve any thing that I have said: for they are not the Prophet jeremy, neither in person, office, or cause, neither yet have I accused them unjustly in any thing. Of the election of Ministers. Tract. 3. Of the trial of Ministers both in learning and conversation. Chap. 1. the first division. Admonition. The first is this. For whereas in the old Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. . 7. 8. Tit. 1, 6. both of their ability to instruct, and of their godly conversation also: now by the letters commendatory of some one man, noble or other, tag and rag, learned and unlearned, of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sort of the people (to the slander of the Gospel in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouths of the adversaries) are freely received. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 36. It it true that in the old Church trial was had of their ability to instruct, and of their godly conversation. But the place in the margin alleged out of the first Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose: being therein no mention at all of any trial made either of learning or manners, but only of presenting two, and of praying and casting of lots: And M. Clavine in his Institutions saith plainly, that out of this place of the Acts and example, there can be no certain rule gathered of electing and choosing Ministers, for as that ministery was extraordinary, so was the calling also. Read M. Caluine and you shall soon see how little this place, so oft in the margin quoted, maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted. T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. & Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleged out of the first of the Acts, to prove, that there aught to be trial of those which are chofen to the ministery: for when S. Peter saith, that such a one must be choose as hath been continually conversant with our saviour Christ, and from the beginning of his preaching until the day wherein he ascended into heaven, he meant nothing (a) Surely that was not so much meant, as that he might be a fit witness of the doings of Christ and of his resurrection. else, but that such a one should be choose, which was sufficiently instructed, and had been continually a scholar of our saviour Christ, and therefore fit to teach and to witness that, which they had seen, and whose godly conversation was notorionsly known. Besides that, albeit those two Mathias and Barsabas were therefore set up in the midst, that the Church in the prayer that was made for their election, might by seeing them, pray the earnestlyer for them: yet it was also as much to say, that if any could object any thing against them, that he should prefer his objection. And whether they were examined or s, the matter is not great, neither when it is said that a trial should be had, it is meant, that when the parties are famously known to those which have the right of election, that there should be always necessarily an apposing and examining, so that the sufficiency of doctrine and holiness of life (for the which cause the trial and examination is commanded) be known and agreed upon by them, that chose, it is enough. And so these two being notoriously known and consented of by the Church, to be fit men, might happily not be examined, but yet the words of Saint Peter declare plainly, that in the choice of them, there was regard had to both, their ability to teach, and honesty of conversation. And although there be certain things extraordinary in this election, (b) If all these be extraordinary, what have you left in that election, as ordinary or how prove you the other to be ordinary more than some of these. as that such a one must be choose which had been conversant with our saviour Christ, and that there were two put up for one place, and that it was permitted to lots, to cast the Apostleship upon one of them two, as if the Lord should by the lots from heaven, tell, who should have it: yet it followeth not to say, that the rest of the things that are there used, should not be practised in ordinary callings, for as much they will well agreed with them. And Master Caluine in the place you allege saith, that the ordinary callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles, and after showeth wherein: that is, in that they were appointed immediately of God, and by his mouth: whereby it appeareth, that for the residue of those things which are there mentioned, he holdeth that they may well stand with the ordinary elections. Io. Whitgifte. This Reply standeth all by conjectures: it is certain that there was no trial had of them, because they were sufficiently known, and therefore the text without discretion alleged, to prove that there ought to be a trial of their ability to instruct etc. If it had been quoted to prove that such as were admitted into the function, were meet for the same, both for their life and doctrine, it had been to some purpose. I think it necessary that such as be admitted into the ministery (unless they be very well known) should be tried, both in learning, and life, but this place maketh nothing at all for that purpose, but rather contrary, for it speaketh of such two as were well known, and therefore needed no trial: so that if we conclude any thing of that place, it must be this, that none ought to be admitted into the ministery, but such as be well known, and need no trial. There was no other cause of presenting them, than that which is expressed in the text, and it is presumption to make the Scripture serve to maintain our contentions, against the express words and plain meaning. If this be a rule to be followed, it must be followed wholly: for where have you learned to add, or take from any law or rule prescribed in God's word? or how do you know that this example must be followed in one thing, and not in an other? what special revelation have you to make any such dismembering of this action? No doubt this example is extraordinary, and not of necessity to be followed. The words of M. Caluine are plain, that there can be no certain rule gathered of this example, for the electing of ministers, because the calling of the Apostles doth something differ from the calling of other ministers. Chap. 1. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 36. In the sixt of the Acts mention is made of Deacons only, whom you will not allow to be ministers of the word, and therefore this place serveth not your turn, neither is there any thing spoken of any trial, but only they are willed to look out among them, seven men of honest report, and full of the holy Ghost, and wisdom to be appointed Deacons. T. C. Page. 24. Sect. 5. And where you say that the sixte of the Acts, because it speaketh of Deacons is nothing to the matter, me think you should have easily understanded, that if a trial be necessary in Deacons (which is an under office in the Church, and hath regard but to one part of the Church, which is the poor, and is occupied in the distribution of money) much more it aught to be in an office of greater charge, which hath respect to the whole Church, and is occupied in the dispensyug of the holy word of God. Io. Whitgifte. That there should be a trial of such as are to be admitted to the ministery, I think it most convenient (as I told you before) except the parties be sufficiently known to such as have authority to admit them: but I say that this place of the Acts doth not prove it, both because the office of a Deacon (by their opinion) is altogether distinct from the office of a minister of the word, the one pertaining to the body, the other to the soul, the one occupied about money, the other in the word, and also, for that there is in that place no mention made of any trial. That place rather proveth that which before was noted A t. 1. that such only should be appointed to that office, as be known by good experience to be fit for such a function. Tell me one word in that text that signifieth any such trial as the Admonition speaketh of. Therefore I say again as I said before, that such as be well known, need no farther trial: as both that example Act. 1. and this also Act. 6. manifestly declareth. Chap. 1. the third Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 36. Sect. 1 The rule of Saint Paul in the. 1. Timo. 3. and Tit. 1. is to be The book of ordering ministers justified concerning examination. followed. And the book of ordering ministers and deacons, set forth and allowed by this Church of England requireth, that whosoever is to be admitted into the order of the ministery, should so be tried, examined, and proved both for learning and life, as S. Paul there requireth. Read the book with indifferency and judgement, and thou canst not but greatly commend it. If any man neglect his duty in that point, his fault must not be ascribed to the rule appointed, neither yet to the whole Church. Is the law evil, because some lawyers Wickedness of men causeth not laws to be evil. in their office serve from it? This is fallation à non causa ad causam. T. C. Pag. 24 Sect. 6. But in the end you agreed that they should be tried, so that now the question standeth only how and by what means: wherein you for your part say, that the book of ordering ministers is a sufficient and good rule. I have read it, and yet I can not commend it greatly. But you will say not with judgement, or iudifferencie. I will promise' you with this indifferency, that I wished, that all that is there, were good and convenient, and such as I might say unto, so be it. With what judgement I do disallow it, I leave it to all men to esteem upon these reasons. Io. Whitgifte. The question is not whether you allow, or disallow that book, neither is it material whether you do or not. Your reasons used against it, I will severally, for memory sake examine. Chap. 1. the fourth Division. T. C. Pag. 24. Sect. 7. 8. 9 first, that the examination of his doctrine, wholly, and partly of his life, is permitted to The reasons of T. C. against the book of ordering ministers. one man. For considering of the one part the greatness of the charge that is committed unto the ministers, and the horrible peril ill that cometh unto the Church by the want of those things that are required in them, and of the other part weighing the weakness of the nature of man, which although he seethe many things, yet is he blind also in many, and that even in those things which he seethe, he suffereth himself to be carried away by his affection of love, or of envy. etc. I say, considering these things, it is very dangerous to commit that to the view and search of one man, which may with less danger and more safety be referred unto divers. For herein Many eye see more 〈◊〉 one. the proverb is true, Plus vident oculi quam oculus. And almost there is no office of charge in this realm which lieth in election, committed so 〈◊〉 to any, as that upon one man's report of his ability, all the rest which have interest in the election, will give their voices, so that if we were destitute of authority of the scripture, the very light of reason would show us a more safe and waryer way. But there is greater authority, for S. Luke in the first of the Acts showeth that Sainc e Peter would not take upon him to present two, as fit for the place which was void, but saith, they did present or set up: whereby appeareth, that the examination of their ability was committed to many. The same appeareth also in the. 6. of the Acts, when as the Apostles will the Church wherein there were so excellent personages, to look out seven full of the holy ghost & wisdom. etc. They do not there permit the discerning of their wisdom and other gifts to one, but to many. Io. Whitgifte Your first reason is partly grounded ppon bore conjectures, or rather The first 〈◊〉 son of T. C. hath either a weak, or a false ground. common suppositions, that may be supposed in the most perfect government, partly upon the place Acto. 1. either not understood, or willingly miscon rued, nothing pertaining to the purpose. But first it is untrue, that the exa ination, either of doctrine, or life, is in this Church wholly committed to one man: For the Book committeth the examination of such as are to be admitted into the ministery, not only to the Bishop, but to the archdeacon also: to the Bishop in the beginning of the Beoke by plain and express words: to the archdeacon, because he must present them unto the Bishop of his knowledge, which he ran not do truly, without diligent examination. But admit it be so, that the examination is committed to one man only: what then? For sooth considering on the one part the greatness of the charge. etc. and of the other part the weakness of the nature of man. etc. it is more dangerous to commit that to the view of one man. etc. If you respect the greatness of the charge that is committed to ministsrs. The Bishop most meet to have the examination. etc. Who is better able to consider thereof than the bishop, which both knoweth what such a charge means, and hath had himself long experience thereof: To whom also diverse several charges do, apperteyn, for the which it behoveth him to foresee, that there be meet ministers? If you speak of blind affections, as love, envy. etc. who may be supposed to be more void of them, than he that is called to such an high office in the Church, that is so well instructed in the Scriptures, of so long time known both for his life, learning, Religion, and wisdom, meet to have that credit committed unto him? Surely if any one man, or more, be void of such affections, and be thought meet to have such matters committed unto him, it is the bishop: And if he be meet and worthy for that place and office, then may he also be safely credyted, with all things incident unto the same. But what have you here said against one man, in this case, that may not be likewise said of an other man, in all other like cases? against one King, one judge: yea against many, even the whole multitude, in whom not only lack of knowledge and discretion in such matters, but great abundance of affections, of wrath, of hatred, of love, of fear, of contention, etc. for the most part reigneth, as experience of all times and places declareth? But of this matter occasion will be ministered to speak more hereafter. The proverb, Plus vident oculi quam oculus, Many eyes see more than one, is not always, nor in all cases true: one man of wisdom, experience, learning, and discretion, may see more, know more, and judge better in those things that he can skill of, than ten thousand other that be ignorant, or that in such matters be far inferior unto him. You say, that almost the is no office of charge in this Realm. etc. which is not so, for the offices of greatest importance and charge in the whole Realm, both in the Ecclesiastical and civil state, are in the only Election of the Prince, and they be best bestowed and upon the meetest and woorthyest persons. Those offices that be committed to the five yces of many, either are bestowed of custom, or at the entreaty of some in authority, or by extreme suit and labour made by some parties, or else is there great contention stirred up about them by some busy bodies. And in deed when are there more unworthy men choose to offices, when is there more strife and contention about elections, when do partial and sinister affections more utter themselves, than when an election is committed to many? And where as you say, that upon one man's report all the rest which have interest in the election, would not give their voices so sieyghtly to any: Experience teacheth you clean contrary: for do you not see that in all such Elections, for the most part, some one man ruleth the rest? Moreover, where is the request of such as be in authority for any denied in such elections? I could bring you a number of examples. If the Election of the minister should be committed to every several Parish, do you think that they would choose the meetest? should not the Lord of the town or some other among them of countenance lead them as he list? would they have no respect to their neighbour's children, though not the meetest? wonulde there be no contention among them? would they not have like people, like pastor? But of this also more must be spoken in an other place. That in the first of the Acts, is nothing for your purpose, for there is no order of Election prescribed, but an extraordinary calling to an extraordinary office, as I have said before. Neither did the multitude present them, but only the Apostles, as M. Beza sayeth, Lib. conf. cap. 5. titu. 35. Neither were they examined, as is also declared: and therefore that place altogether impertinent. To that in the sixte of the Acts I have answered sufficientely: it proveth not examination. And M. Beza in the aforenamed book and Chapter sayeth plainly, that Luke hath not set down what the Church did observe in the election of Deacons: and shortly after concludeth thus: Certam igitur regulam, non est quòd nimiùm curiosè quisquam hic praescribae, sed si recta fuerit conscientia facilè fuerit pro temporum Beza lib. eonf. cap. 5. & locorum circumstantia definire quid expediat, Therefore there is no cause why any man should here over-curiously prescribe any certain rule: But if the conscience be upright, it may be easy to determine, what is convenient for the circumstance of time and place. And these words he speaketh of that place of the Acts. But I The elections Act. 1. & Act. 6. do nothing agreed. pray you answer me this one question: if you will make these two places Act. 1 & Act. 6. rules which we must of necessity follow in electing of ministers: how will you join them together being in nothing like? for Acto. 1. the Apostles presented two to the people, Acto. 6. The whole multitude did present seven to the Apostles: Acto. 1. they cast lots, Acto. 6. they laid on hands: Acto. 1. they prayed to God to show whether of the two he had choose, Acto. 6. there is no such thing: Acto. 1. of two that were presented one was choose, Acto. 6. all were choose that were presented: so that there is great difference in the two places, and therefore no prescript rules for us to follow. Chap. 1. the fift Division. T. C. Page. 24. Sect. ult. Secondaryly, I can not commend it, for that, that one man is the archdeacon, which must examine the Pastors, and judge of their sufficiency. For what is the Archdeacon? is he not a Deacon? for he being the chief Deacon, must needs be also a Deacon himself. And therefore although the chief Deacon, yet inferior to any of the Pastors: and the * gifts which are 1. Tim. 3. required in him, inferior to those which are required in the Pastor, and so to make him judge of the aptness and ableness of the Pastor, is to make the inferior in gifts, judge of the superior: he that hath by his calling less gifts, judge of his which hath by his calling great gifts, which is nothing else, than to appoint him that hath but one eye, to oversee his sight, that hath two. Io. Whitgifte. You will not stand in this reason I think, when you have something better remembered T. C. reasoneth against himself. yourself: will you not have the Archdeacon, because he is but a deacon, examine the Pastors, and judge of their sufficiency? do you think that because he is inferior to the pastors, & the gifts required in him inferior to those which are required of the Pastors▪ therefore he is not meet to examine the Pastor, and to judge of his aptness? What greater argument can be used against yourself? for if this be true, how can the people examine the pastors, or judge of their aptness, being far inferior to Deacons, in respect of their office, and in gifts not like unto them? or how can you admit your Seniors to the examination or allowing of them, not only being inferior in office and calling, but in gifts also? yea the most of them rude and ignorant, for such Seniors you must of necessity have, if you will have any. Surely I marvel that you have so much forgotten yourself. A Deacon is superior to the people, yea to your Seniors (though you deny it) and mother gifts required in him than in both the other. 1. Tim. 3. Wherefore if he be not meet to examine pastors, and judge of their sufficiency, because that were to make the inferior in gifts to judge of the superior. etc. much less are the people and your Seniors able to be examiners and judges in that matter. Furthermore, if none must examine and judge of the Pastor, but such as be superior, or at the lest equal unto him, and such in whom more or as many gifts are required, then truly I see not to whom this office may more orderly or safely be committed than to the Bishop, who is superior to the Pastor, both in office and also in gifts. It is not true that the book committeth the examination of ministers only to the Archdeacon's, or especially: it is otherwise in the beginning of the book in plain words. Your reason whereby you would prove an Archdeacon to be only a deacon, is no reason at all: for what sequel is there in this argument, an Archdeacon is the chief deacon, Ergo he is only a Deacon? as though you were ignorant of the state of our Church, and known not that Archdeacon's may be also ministers of the word. Chap. 1. the sixt Division. T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 1 Thirdly, I mislike the book, because it permitteth, the the Bishop may admit the minister upon the credit & report of the Archdeacon, and upon his examination, if there be no opposition of the people: which appeareth by these words in the book, whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus: Reverend father in God, I present unto you these people to be admitted to be Priests. etc. The bishop answereth. Take heed that the people whom you present unto us, be apt & meet for their godly conversation to exercise their ministery duly to the honour of God & edifying of his church. And thereupon I think it cometh that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the bishop. But why doth not he himself take heed unto it? with what conscience can he admit a minister, of whose fitness he knoweth not, but upon the credit of an other, although he were otherwise very fit? where can he have that full persuasion that he doth well, upon the report of others, when the report of his life and learning▪ is made but of one. And therefore * 1. Timo. 3. Saint Paul ordained, that the same should be the ordeyners, and the examiners, and not to hung upon the faith or report of an other man, in things that are so weighty, and whereof he may himself take notice. Io. Whitgifte. This reason though it differ in some circumstances, yet in effect it is all one with the second, for it is against the examination of the Archedacon, and so was that. But your argument is not sound: for doth the Bishop therefore admit Ministers only upon the credit, and at the report of the archdeacon, because the archdeacon presenteth them unto him? you know that none is admitted to any degree here in Cambridge, but the same is first presented to the Uicechancelor, & to the University, by some one of that faculty, who giveth his fidelity for them: doth the University therefore admit them only upon the credit and report of that one man? You know the contrary: even so it is here: The Archdeacon presenteth to the Bishop, the Bishop doth inquire if he hath diligently examined them. etc. doth he therefore think you, not examine them himself? I have known Bishops reject those whom their Archdeacon's have allowed. If any Bishop do give that credit to his Archdeacon, he doth more than I would wish he should do, and otherwise than the book requireth of him: neither must his example done without the book, prejudice that which is well appointed in the book. Paul. 1. Ti. 3. declareth what qualities and conditions a ishop aught to have: but can you gather of any thing there written, that the same should be the ordeyners and examiners? it is most meet it should so be I grant, but yet would I not have the Scriptures made ship menn s hose, to serve our turns as it pleaseth us to turn them, lest we fall into that fault ourselves, which we justly reprove in the Papists. But still you are contrary to yourself, for if the same must be the ordeyners & the examiners, T. C. contrary to himself. then must the Bishops of necessity be the examiners, for you can not deny but that the Bishops must be the ordeyners. And if you will have. 1. Ti. 3. to serve your purpose, then must you of force confess it, for there Saint Paul writeth to Timothy being a Bishop, and but one man, so that this reason is directly against the first. Chap. 1. the seventh Division. T. C. Page. 25. Sect. 2. Fourthly, for that albei the Church is demanded whether they have any thing to object, yet that Church whereof he is to be Pastor, and which it skilleth especially that he be fit, is not demanded, and which would (because it standeth them upon) inquire diligently of him. Io. Whitgifte. And how would you have that Church whereof he is to be Pastor demanded whether The absurditi s that of necessity follow the assertion of T. C. they have any thing to object against him? would you have every one that is to be minister, first go and devil among them, that they might have trial of him? In deed so did Mathias, and Barsabas among the Apostles, and the seven among them, by whom they were choose Deacons. But how long shall he then remain among them? for it had need be a good time, else shall they not thoroughly know him, nor then neither, for he may play the hypocrite. But who shall in the mean time bear his charges there and find him? for a number of parishes in England be not able sufficiently to find one, much less more: Or how shall they have any trial of his doctrine, learning and ability to preach, seeing that he may not publicly either teach or exhort, because he is not yet called to the ministery? Surely I understand not how your devise could be well brought to pass, except you will make in every parish an university, or some school of Divinity, or College of learning, as in deed they had in most great Cities of the old Church, where the election of ministers was committed to many: or except you imagine, that some such may be dwelling, and continuing in every Parish, as by inspiration or some other extraordinary means may be made able to be their Pastor, when the place shall be void. But tell me this one thing: would you have him that is to be chos n their Pastor, remain among them, they having yet a Pastor? or come unto them after the death or departure of their Pastor, as the second Admonition would have it Folio. 14? if the first: then must the Parish be double burdened, that is, they must find both him that is, and him also that shall be their pastor: moreover it is uncertain how long he must remain with them, expecting the death or departure of the other: Likewise how he shall in the mean time occupy himself. etc. If the second: then must they of long time be destitute of a Pastor, for they cannot have sufficient trial of him, except also sufficient time be granted unto them to try him in, which cannot be less than one whole year at the lest. But admit all these impossibilities and great absurdities, to be possible and convenient: yet are there further doubts, what if the parish be wholly or the most part simple, ignorant, and unlearned men not able to judge? what if they be all or the most part corrupt in religion? what if they be such, as can be better content with one that will wink at their faults, than with him that will reprove them? what if they be such, as will be overruled with some one, whom they dare not displease? To be short, what if they cannot agree among themselves, upon some one, but be divided i to factions. & c? All these things being considered, you shall found it the fittest, and best way, that the Bishop, even according to the form prescribed in the book, have authority to admit and allow of such as are to be ministers. Would you have him that is brought up in the university, and well known in all respects to be meet for the ministery, to whom also a cure in some place of Westmoreland is to be committed, to be kept from the same, because he is unknown unto them? Let other men think of your the ises as they list, in my judgement they be mere fancies & fond dreams, grounded neither upon the word of God, neither yet of any other good consideration. Sure I am that they are contrary to the practice of reform Churches, and namely the Churches of Berne and Tygure. As M. Musculus reporteth in his common places titu. de ministris verbi. And M. Bullinger. 1. Tim. 4. Touching this supposition of yours, that none should be admitted into the ministery except Tra t. 4. c p. the same have some certain cure committed unto him, occasion will be given to speak in another place. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 3. 4. Again, they are demanded, which can object nothing of his insufficiency, whom for the most part they never see nor herded of before, as one that came of one day unto the town, and goeth away the next. Further, they have no reasonable space given them, wherein they may inquire or harken out of his honest conversation: and have some experience of his soundness in teaching, and discretion and judgement to rule his flock. But if as soon as ever it be said, that those that are strangers to them should object against them, no man stand forth to oppose against them, forthwith he is made a minister. And these are those things wherein I think the book of ordering ministers faulty, touching the trial and examination of the ministers, which self-same things, are likewise of the trial of the Deacon. And so you see, that besides the faults of those that execute the law, that there be faults in the laws themselves, and therefore the cause is truly assigned, although you see it not. Io. Whitgifte. There is none that aught to be admitted by any Bishop, but such as have dwelt and remained in his diocese a convenient time: No time of admitting (except it be of some singular person whose ability is not doubted of) is appointed, but the same is before a sufficient time notified in the notablest places of the whole diocese, chief to this end and purpose, that there may be resort thither by such as have any thing to object against any that is to be admitted at that time into the ministery: neither aught any to be admitted except he bring a sufficient testimonial of his good behaviour from that place, where he hath had his abode: and therefore if they come not, it is a token that they have nothing to say: or if they have to object, and do not, the fault is in themselves, they may if they will. I told you before, that he may not teach before he be thereunto admitted, nor rule a flock before he have one committed unto him, and therefore of necessity he must at the lest be admitted into the ministery of the word, before they can give any judgement of him. So that in deed though you have used many words, yet have you in effect said little or nothing: and the slenderness of your reasons against the book, together with the inconueni nces that must of necessity follow, hath procured a great credit unto it: and it still remaineth true, that I have answered to the Admonition, that is, that the fau 'tis that be, are in the people, not in the law. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 37. Lin. 1. Again, if some be admitted into the ministery, either voided of learning, or lewd in life, are all the rest for their sake to be condemned? Or is this a good argument, some be admitted into the ministery without trial, therefore none is lawfully admitted into the ministery? or some ministers be unlearned and evil, Ergo, there is none good? I think you will not deny, but that there is now within this Church of England, as many learned, godly, grave, wise, and worthy Worthy ministers in England. ministers of the word, as there is in any one realm or particular Church in all Christendom, or ever hath been heretofore. T. C. Page. 25. Sect. 5. 6. 7. And what mean you, still to use this fighting with your own shadow? for where are the words, or what be they that condemn all the ministers for some? that say all the ministers are unlawfully admitted, for some? or that there is none good, because some are bad? If there be no such words, as carry with them any such sense, than you do wrong to your brethren. If there be words that declare the clean contrary, than all men see what you be, which although you often fault in, yet I am loath so often to name and charge you with it. When it is said, that learned and unlearned are received, it is evident that they condemn not all. The Lord bless and increase an hundredth fold the godly, wise, learned, grave ministers of this Church, and because these words seem to rock us asleep, and to bring us into forgetfulness of the great ruins and desolations of the Church, I must tell you that two thousand able and sufficient ministers, which preach and feed diligently and carefully the flock of Christ, were hard to be found in this Church, which have been notwithstanding found in the Church of France, by the estimation of those which know the estate, even under the time of the cross, where there were no such helps of Magistrates, and appointed stipends, as God be praised we have. And again, you are to be put in mind, that a great number of those were bred in king Edward's days, so that I fear me a man need no great Arithmetic to count the numbers of such able ministers, as the late years have brought forth. And yet I am well assured, that if the ministery were reform, and worthy men were sought for, there are great numbers of zealous and learned men, that would lay their hands to serve this kind of building by the ministery. For besides numbers that the universities would yield, which sigh for the repairing of the decays of the Church, to help forward so great a work, the Inns of Court, and other the Gentry of the Realm, Galene, and justinian, would bring their tenths, and (as it were) pay their shot in this reckoning. Io. Whitgifte. Their words be plain, for they say whereas in the old Church a trial was had. etc. now by the letters commendatory of some one man. etc. whereby they set this time as contrary unto that, because some have been admitted without trial: and therefore make that fault general, which is particular, and in very deed condemn all for some. If it were not so, why should either they or you condemn the rule, and not the people only? why should they say that we have no right ministery? why should the second Admonition from the beginning to the end, so rail upon all the states and degrees of ministers and preachers in this Church, which do not consent with them in disturbing the Church, and opposing themselves against lawful orders and laws. Look Fol. 32. of the. 2. Admonition especially, and so forth, where they speak in most unchristian manner. And though these men in this place say learned and unlearned, yet doth it not follow that they condemn not all, of an unlawful calling, and of not being tried, and examined as well in life, as learning. But what need you make such ado in cloaking a matter to notorious? for what do either they or you, but deface even the best learned, and wisest of such as withstand you: thinking none sufficiently learned, but yourselves and your adherents? For the number of sufficient ministers in France, able to preach in the time of the cross, I will not take upon me to define any thing: yet have I talked with some wise, godly, and learned preachers of that country, such as had good cause to know the state of that Church touching that matter: and truly for any thing that I can learn of them, you have overshot yourself in reckoning at the lest. 14. hundredth. But I am not curious in matters not appertaining unto me, and I writ but of credible report. God be thanked for the number that they had, or have, how many or how few soever they are. Touching the number of preachers throughout England, I cannot writ any certainty, but of this University because I have some experience, you shall give me leave to speak as earnestly in truly commending of it, as you have done in untruly and unkindly defacing and slandering it. The number of known preachers, which this university hath bred since the beginning of the queens majesties reign to this time of the year of our Lord Anno. 1573. are at the lest. 450. besides those that have been called to that office after their departure from hence, and are not yet known to me. The number of preachers that be now in this University remaining is. 102. and no doubt but God will increase the number of them daily more and more. Although The contentions in the Church is an hindrance to the profession of diumitie, in the universities. it must be confessed, that the factions and tumults which you and some others have made in the Church, do discourage a great number from the ministery, causeth many to contemn it, and think the calling to be unlawful, and therefore to abstain from it. Moreover I know by experience, that some of you devise and practise by all means possible, to stir up contention in this University, to dissuade men from the ministery, to bring such as be sober, wise, learned and godly preachers into contempt, and to make a confusion, and divide every College within itself. But howsoever hitherto you have prevailed (as you have prevailed to much) yet I trust you shall never thoroughly bring to pass that which you desire. And I doubt not, but that your undutiful, uncivil, and uncharitable dealing in this your book, your many errors and foul absurdities contained in the same, hath so detected you, that honest, discreet, quiet, and godly learned men will no more be withdrawn by you, and such as you are, to any such schism or contention in the Church: but rather bend themselves against the common adversary, and seek with heart and mouth to build up the walls of jerusalem, which you have broken down: and to fill up the mines that you have digged, by craft and subtlety to overthrow the same. And howsoever some will still be way wardly disposed, yet I doubt not, but that if such as be in authority will do their duties, they may by convenient discipline, either be kept within the bonds of modesty, or else removed from this place, wherein of all other places, they may do most harm. For the Inns of Court what they would do I know not, howbeit I think very few have gone from this place thither, which had ever any purpose in them, to enter into the ministery. And surely from that place where I am, I have not known any go to the Inns of Court, in whom there hath appeared any kind of inclination to the ministery. What store of fit preachers those Inns would yield, if your Church were framed, I know not, but I think, that some of them would not refuse the spoil of this. I doubt not but that there are many in the Inns of Court well affected in religion: God continued them and increase the number of them, and give them grace to take heed that they be not seduced by overmuch credulity in themselves, and pretenced zeal in others. What Galene and justinian would do, may be doubted, for, though both Galene and justinian have forsaken our ministery, yet do they keep such livings as they had in the respect of the same, and are so far from yielding of tenths, that they can be well content to receive tenths. Chap. 1. the tenth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 37. Sect. 1 Touching letters commendatory of some one mannoble or other, Letters commendatory of wise and godly men. it may be that the parties which give these letters be of that zeal, learning, and godliness, that their particular testimony aught to be better credited, than some other subscribed with an hundred hands. And I think there is both noble men and other, who may better be trusted in that point, than a great number of parishes in England, which consist of rude and ignorant men, easily moved to testify any thing: And in many places for the most part, or altogether, drowned in Papistry. I know no reason to the contrary, and I see no scripture alleged, why one learned, godly and wise man's testimony, may not be reteived in such a case, and yet the book expresseth no such thing, The b oak quireth due examination of life and learning. but requireth due examination of learning, and sufficient testimonial of conversation, and giveth liberty to any one particular man, to object any crime against any such as are to be ordered, & willeth that the party accused be kept from the ministery until he have cleared himself of the crimes objected. If tag and rag be admitted, learned and unlearned, it is the fault of some, not of all, nor of the law: And if they were called and elected according to your fantasy, there would some creep in, as evil as any be now, and worse too, T. C. Page. 26. Lin. 8. It is not denied, but the testimony that a noble man which professeth the truth doth give, aught to be weighed according to his degree, and place which he hath in the common wealth, but where you think, that the testimony of one wise man, learned, and godly, is sufficient warrant to proceed to an election of a Minister, you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul used, who when he admitted Timothy into his company, to be a companion in his journey, to cut off all occasion of evil speech, received him not*but upon commendation of the brethren, both in Lystra Act. 1 . and Iconium. Io. Whitgifte. I know that the testimony of many godly and wise men, is of more weight, than the testimony of one only, but this is no answer to that which I have said. The place of Paul and Timothy Act. 16. declareth how well Timothy was thought of, and commended unto Paul, but it followeth not, that Paul would not also have received him, if he had been commended unto him but by some one. Howsoever it is, this your argument is nothing worth: nunquàm licet (says Zuinglius) nequè in divinis nequé in Zainglius. profanis, à facto ad ius argumentari: it is never lawful, neither in divine nor in profane matters to argue (*) à facto ad ius. Neither is the text as you report it, for the words do not Of a deed or example to make a law. signify that Paul would not have taken him with him, unless they had all given such testimony of him, neither can there be any such sense truly gathered out of that place. And it is manifest that the Apostles received Paul into their company, at the testimony and commendation of Barnabas only. Act. 9 Chapter. 1. the. 11. Division. Answer of the Admonition. Pag. 38. Sect. 1 You say that there be admitted into the ministery of the basest sort of the people: I know not what you mean by the basest sort: this I am sure of, that the ministery is not now bond to any one tribe, as it was to the tribe of Levi, in jeroboams time: now none is secluded from that function of any degree, state, or calling, so that those qualities be found in him, which in that office are to be required. T. C. Page. 26. Lin 14. You know they meant by the basest of the people, such as gave but one leap out of the shop into the Church, as suddenly are changed out of a serving man's coat, into a ministers cloak, making for the most part, the ministery their last refuge. etc. And seeing that besides the words be plain, the daily experience teacheth it, you need not make it so strange, as though you known not what they meant. Io. Whitgifte. I hear you say so, but why did they then quote the. 1. Reg. 1 . 〈◊〉. 3 . that manifestly proveth the same sense that I have gathered of their words, and that text only occasioned me so to do. Chap. 1. the. 12. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. I marvel to what purpose the twelfth chapter of the first book of kings is here quoted, for jeroboam is there reproved because he took the priesthood from the tribe of Levi, to the which only it did appertain. The Papists never took so great occasion of slandering the Gospel, Offences given to the Papists by their contentions. at the ignorance of the ministers (for they have of themselves those that be as ignorant and more) as they do at your schisms and fond opinions, wherewith you disquiet the peace of the Church, and lay stumbling blocks before the weak, for the which God will surely call you to account. The second chapter to the Romans is here quoted only to paint the margin. Io. Whitgifte. All this is passed over in silence. Whether Idolatrous sacrificers, and massmongers, may afterwards be ministers of the Gospel. Chapter second the first Division. Admonition. The second. In those days o 〈◊〉. 5. 4. 〈◊〉▪ 44. 10. 12. 13. jerem. 23. no Idolatrous sacrificers of Heathenish priests were appointed to be Preachers of the Gospel: but we allow and like well of Popish massmongers, me for all seasons, King Henry's priests, king Edward's Priests, Queen Mary's Priests, who of a truth if God's word were precisely followed, should from the same be utterly removed. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 38. Sect. ult. The place in the fifth chapter of the Hebrues quoted in the margin, speaketh nothing of Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish Priests, but only by the example of Aaron proveth, that no man aught to intrude himself into the office of a Bishop or Priest, except he be called of God. Lord how dare these men thus wring the scriptures? In the 23. of the Prophet jeremy there is much spoken against false prophets, but not one word (for any thing that I see) to prove that idolatrous sacrificers may not be admitted to preach the Gospel. Io. Whitgifte. To this is nothing answered. Chap. 2. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 39 Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. &. Pag. 40. Sect. 1 The places of the 44. of ezechiel have some show in them, for there the Lord commandeth the Levites which had committed Idolatry to be put from their dignity, and not to be received into the priests office, but to serve in inferior ministries. I think you will not make this a general rule to debar such from preaching of the Gospel, as have through infirmity fallen, & be now with hearty repentance returned. We have many examples to the contrary, Peter forswore his master Christ, which was as evil Peter's forswearing. as sacrificing to Idols, and yet he was not put from his Apostleship. We have divers examples in the Primitive Church, of such as by fear being compelled to sacrifice to strange gods, after repent, and kept still the office of preaching the Gospel, and did most constantly die in the same. T. C. Page. 26. Sect. 1 What aught to be general, if this aught not, to put the minister that hath been an Idolater, from his ministery? is it not a commandment of God, and given, not of one Levite or two, but of all 2. Cham 23. those that went back, not at one time, but at others also, when the like occasion was given, as appeareth in the book of the kings, where all the priests of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places, were not suffered to come to the altar in jerusalem? Doth not S. Paul make smaller 1. Tim. 3. causes of deposing from the ministery than Idolatry? For after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be, and Deacons, he addeth: And being tried, (a) S Paul his words and meaning falsisyed. let them execute their functions, as long as they remain blameless: I think if so be a man had been known to be an adulterer, although he repented him, yet none that is well advised, would take him into the ministery: for if S. Paul reject him that had. ij. wives at once (which was a thing that the jews and Gentiles thought lawful, and that was common amongst them, and had prevailed throughout all the world) how much less would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministery, which should be an adulterer, and have another man's wife, which is condemned of all that profess the name of Christ, and which is not so general a mischief as that was, and suffer him to abide in the ministery, which should commit such wickedness during his function, and likewise of a murderer, now the sin of Idolatry is greater and more detestable, than any of them, in as much as pertaining to the first table, it immediately staineth God's honour, and breaketh duty to him, unto whom we more own it (without all comparison) than to any mortal man. And if S. Paul in the choice of the widow to attend upon the sick of the Church, which was the lowest office in the Church, requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choice, honest and holy, but such a one as had led her whole life in all good works, and with commendation, how much more is that to be observed in the minister or bishop of the Church, that he be not only at the time of his choice, but all other times before such a one, as had lived without any notable, and open offence of those, amongst whom he had his conversation. Io. Whitgifte. It is not such a commandment as must of necessity be perpetually kept, and The place 44. Ezechi. touching Idolatrous sacrificers is not perpetual made a general rule for ever: for it pertaineth to the judicial law which is not perpetual (*) Ira. 2. cap. 6. divis. 5. Ezech. 44. as I have before proved. Moreover why should this precept rather be perpetual, than that which goeth before, that no stranger uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh should enter into the sanctuary? or than that which followeth, that the Priests when they enter in at the gates, must be elothed with white linen. etc: Do not the circumstances of the place best declare the meaning of it? The like also is to be said to that example. 2. Regum 23.. The place of S. Paul. 1. Tim. 3. is untruly by you alleged, and corruptly translated: The corrupt dealing of T. C. 1. Tim 3 for the words of the Apostle be not as you report them: and being tried let them execute their functions, as long as they remain blameless: But thus the Apostle says and let them first be proved, then let them minister being blameless: the gréek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, if in trial they be found blameless, then let them minister. For trial may be had whether they be blameless or not, but not whether they will so remain. Moreover the Apostle in that place speaketh of Deacons, and not of ministers. I marvel what you mean so manifestly to falsify the words of the scripture, or to what purpose you have invented this new translation, except it be to justify that error of the Anabaptists, that the virtue of the word, and of the Sacraments doth depend upon the good life of the Minister. Certain it is that you have neither Greek, latin, nor English text that doth so translate it. Neither do he 〈◊〉 Apostle S. Paul there speak of deposing ministers, or deacons, but of electing 〈◊〉, as it is manifest. I doubt not, but that a whoremonger after he hath repent him (if other things be correspendent) may be admitted to the ministery, even as well, as Peter after his denial, was admitted to be an Apostle, or Paul after that he had been a persecutor. Saint Paul would not, that a Bishop should have two wives at once, but he doth not seclude him from being a Bishop that hath had two wives: except you will establish in this place the Papishe bigamy. In like manner he would not have an whoremo her, a drunkard, a covetous person to be choose a Bishop: yet doth he not seclude from that function such, as have been guilty of these crimes (and now of godly conversation) for their former offences: for than should he deal otherwise with them, than he himself was dealt with: neither have you any example in the new testament of any deposed from their ministery, though they were found in many things guilty. Christ knew that judas was a traitor, yet did he not depose him from his Apostleship: he known that the Scribes and Pharisees were criminous in divers points, yet did he will them to be taken, and herded as gods ministers when he said in cat edra Mosis sedent Scribae. etc. the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. etc. Mat. 23. And S. Paul knew Math. 23. ofdivers wicked and ungodly preachers in the Church of Philippi, yet did he not will their ministery to be taken from them, but showed himself to be very glad for their Phil. 1. labour and travel taken in preaching the Gospel. Phi. 1. True it is, that Idolatry is an horrible and great sin, yet doth repentance stretch Repentance stretcheth to Idolatry. unto it, which so altereth and changes a man through the mercy of God, be he never so defiled, that it maketh him pure and clean: and shall we seclude him from ministering unto God, that is pure in the sight of God? or shall we not think him to be a meet minister in the visible Church, that is a member of the unvisible, and elect Church? In the old law there were many things that defiled the body, and made the man for a time unclean, but now all such things are clean to those that be clean. In Tit. . like manner there were then certain crimes pertaining to the mind, which could not be expiated but by corporal punishment, but repentance is a medicine for all, and the greatest Idolater truly repenting, may become a more zealous preacher, than he that in the sight of the world, never committed the lest offence. S. Paul in the choice of widows doth not require such a one as hath led her wheel life in all good works: for how could that be at that time, when they had but in one part of their life known Christ, and professed the Gospel, being thereunto converted by the Apostles: but his meaning is, that such be choose, as were known to have been diligent in all good works, that is, to have been liberal & beneficial towards the poor, for so doth M. Caluine interpret it: if you would have none choose to be ministers, but such as have all their life time been blameless, I think you are like to have but a few, and more like to refuse such as be very meet and fit for that function. But as the Apostle would not have any admitted to the ministery upon a sudden trial or conversion, so doth he not appoint for the same, the whole former time of man's life, but a reasonable and sufficient time, such as may suffice for the trial of a man in such matters. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 26. Sect. 2. 3 & Pag. 27. Sect. 1 If I should stand with you, whether Peter his forswearing that he known not Christ, were a greater fault then to go from the Gospel to Idolatry, and therein, for some long space to continued, as the Levites did, I should trouble you. For if a man suddenly and at a push for fear, and to save his life, say and swear he is no Christian, and the same day repent him of his fault, although it be a great and heinous crime, yet it seemeth not to be so great, as his is, which not only denieth Christ in words, but doth it also in decdes, and worshippeth Antichrist, and continueth in that worship, not a day, but months, and years. But I will answer you, that even as our saviour Christ called S. Paul in the heat of his persecution, and when he was a blasphemer unto the Apostleship, so he having the law in his own hands, and making no laws for himself, but for us, might call S. Peter also to that function, which had thrice denied him. But as it is not lawful for us, to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul, by admitting those which are new converted, having a contrary precept given, that no (*) new plant, or green 1. Tim. 3. Christian, should be taken to the ministery: So is it not lawful also, to follow that example of our Saviour Christ, the contrary being commanded, as I have before alleged. For albeit the examples of our Saviour Christ be to be followed of us, yet if there be commaundtmentes general to the contrary, than we must know, that it is our parts to walk in the broad and beaten way, as it were the common caussie of the commandment, rather than an outpath of the example. Io. Whitgifte. Peter having before bragged of his constancy, lately admonished by his Master Christ, almost even in the presence of his master, wittingly & willingly denied, not once, but thrice, yea bitterly forswore him: which fault no doubt was as grievous as any kind of Idolatry: and therefore if you stand with me in that matter never so long, you can not greatly trouble me. for the circumstances being considered, there is nothing to exeuse Peter's denial. As Christ in the heat of Paul's persecution, did choose him to be an Apostle, and called Peter also to that function, after he had thrice denied him, even so doth he still continued his mercy, neither is it one whit straightened: and these examples hath he set before us that we should at no time despair of his mercy and goodness: so says S. Paul 1 Tim. 1. Verùm ideò misericordiam consecutus sum. etc. Notwithstanding, for this cause was I 1. Tim. 1. received to mercy, that jesus Christ should first show on me all long suffering, unto the example of them, which shall in time to come believe in him unto eternal life. Although these examples of our saviour Christ are not at all times, & in all points to be followed, yet do they sufficiently declare, that no man for any crime is to be secluded from any lawful vocation, if he repent him and become a new man. And there be no general commandments contrary hereunto, but this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospel. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisine, to be Bishop of Milan, for the great T. C. picketh a quarrel to deprave Ambrose out of place, and unjustly. estimation and credit he had amongst the people, but besides that I have showed, that such things are unlawful being forbidden, the errors & corrupt expounding of scriptures, which are found in his works, declare that it had been more safe for the Church, if by study of the scriptures, he had first been a scholar of divinity, or ever he had been made Doctor. Io. Whitgifte. You needed not to have wiped away the example of Ambrose, with so much disgracing of him, being so worthy a man, and so learned a father: for though he were not christened when he was choose Bishop, yet had he long before that time professed the name of Christ, and was sound grounded in Religion: for in those days many did long differre the time of Baptism after the time of their conversion. And S. Paul 1 Tim. 3. by his green Christian as you term him, doth understand such as be newly converted. Ambrose was a man of notable learning, and singularly commended in all histories that make any mention of him: his errors be not so many, nor his expositions so simple, that you should so contemptuously writ of him. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page. 27. Sect. 2. here may be more examples showed out of that which you call the Primitive Church, to the 〈◊〉 of that which you say. For when they used oftentimes against those that had so feign, such severity (in deed extreme and excessive) that they were never after, until their deaths admitted to the Lords table: I leave to you to think whether they would then suffer any such to execute the function of the ministery. Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a special treatise of this, that those that have sacrificed to Idols should not be permitted any more to minister in the Church, in the first book of his Epist. Epistle. seven. Io. Whitgifte. It appeareth in that. 7. Epistle of Cyprian, that he meant of such as after they had sacrificed to Idols, took their ministery again upon them, without any signification or show of repentance, but rather justifying, or at the lest excusing their former fact. And that this was Cyprians meaning, it may be gathered by these words in the same Cypri. lib. . Epist. 7. Epistle, which he speaketh to the people to whom he written, touching Fortunatianus, who having sacrificed to Idols would have again resumed his ministery: Ergo contumaces, & deum non timentes, & ab ecclesia in totum recedentes, nemo comitetur. Quòd si quis impatiens fuerit ad deprecandum dominum, qui offensus est, & nobis obtemperare noluerit, sed desperatos & perditos secutus fuerit, sibi imputabit cum judicij dies venerit. Wherefore let no man keep company with those which are stubborn, not fearing God, & wholly departed from the Church: But if any will not ask forgiveness at the Lord, which is offended, and will not obey us, but will needs follow them which are desperate and passed hope, he shall say the blame on none but on himself at the day of judgement. Whereby it is plain, that Cyprian meant such, as had wholly departed from the Church, and were desperate in wickedness. It is manifest that in Cyprians time, those that did offend in such crimes & afterwards repent, were appointed a time of public repentance, according to the quality of the fault committed, and until that time was expired, they were not admitted unto the lords table, except only at the point of death. But I grant that there was extreme severity in Cyprians time showed to such, as had fallen in the time of pesecution, and that it evidently appeareth in other of his Epistles, that such were no more admitted to the ministery. But this law was made by Cyprian and others as it is evident Lib. 2. Epist. 1. in that Council of Carthage where it was also concluded that such as were baptised of heretics should be rebaptized, and therefore of the less force, seeing that that whole Council is for iust causes rejected. Chap. 2. the sixte Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 39 Sect. 2. 3. I pray you what say you to M. Luther, Bucer, Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, etc. were not all these sometimes massmongers, and yet singular and notable instruments of promoting the Gospel and preaching the same? whereof many have given testimony by shedding their blood. And by whose ministery especially hath the Gospel been published, and is as yet in this Church of England, but by such as have been massmongers, and now zealous, godly, & learned preachers. T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. 3. But you ask what they say to M. Luther, Bucer, Cranmer, Latimer, Rid eye? I pray you when did these excellent personages, ever slide from the Gospel unto Idolatry? which of them did ever say Mass, after God had opened them the truth? what hath so (a) Even the A monition which I confu e, for it speaketh generally and maketh no such distinct blinded you, that you can not distinguish & put a difference, between one that having been noussed from his youth up in Idolatry, cometh afterwards out of it, and between him, which having knowledge of the Gospel afterward departeth from it, and of such is the place of Ezechiel, of such I say, as have go back and fallen away. I know none, that have been Preachers of the Gospel, and after in the time of Queen Mary massmongers, which now are zealous, godly, and learned preachers, & if there be any such I think for offence sake, the Church might better be without them, than have them. You say God in that place showeth how grievous a sin Idolatry is, in the Priests especially: And is it not now more grievous in the Minister of the Gospel, whose function is more precious, and knowledge greater? and if the sin be greater, should it have now a less punishment, than it had then? how shall the fault be esteemed great or little, but by the greatness or smallness of the punishment? you said before, the places of Deuteronomie, touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commandeth, were for the jews, and are not for our times. And this commandment of God in Ezechiel, you say served for that time, and not for ours. Io. Whitgifte. The examples of M. Luther, Bucer, Cranmer. etc. do sufficiently confute the Admonition, The examples of Luther. etc. are directly against the Admonition. the words whereof be these: In those days no Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish priests were appointed to be preachers of the Gospel: but we allow and like well of Popish massmongers, men for all seasons, king Henry's priests. etc. here you see, that they do not only condemn such as once knowing the truth, have afterwards departed from it, but such also as have at any time sacrificed: why should they else name king Henry's priests, seeing it is evident that the mass was not abolished in King Henry's time? so that I have better cause to ask, what hath so blinded you that you could not understand their meaning, the words being so plain? or rather that you would in that point wilfully blind yourself, & others also? I know some that being preachers of the Gospel, & after in the time of Queen Mary massmongers, which now are zealous, godly & learned preachers, & of as good fame and credit with godly men, as any be in this land (without offence be it spoken) neither be the quiet & humble members of the Church offended with them, but rejoice at their conversion, and praise God for them. But you frame your doctrine according to your affection towards certain people, Doctrine framed according to men's people. as the manner now a days of some is: for this doctrine hath been taught generally, that no Idolatrous priest should remain in the ministery: & these examples of Luther, Bucer. etc. have been lightly rejected, as repugnant to the conunaundement of God: but now being better advised, & remembering that some in that case be great promoters of your opinions, this mitigation forsooth must be made, that such as were preachers in king Edward's time. etc. they (I mean your fautors) were professors, though they were no preachers, they were also in Queen Mary's time massmongers, & now they be preachers, & yet all is well: for you have the law in your hands, to coin what opinions you list, to add to them, or to take from them, what you list, to apply & not apply them, to whom and when you list, even Popelike. The sin of Idolatry is now as great an offence as it was then, but the external & civil punishment for the same, is in the power of the Magistrate, being a portion of Tract. 2. cap. 6. the. 5. division. the judicial law, the necessity whereof is wholly abrogated, as I have proved before. Those precepts in Deut. were given to the jews, both for the judicial & ceremonial law also: they be given to us for the law of faith & good manners only: for we are clearly delivered from the ceremonies of the law: & the judicials (whereof this in Ezechiel is a portion) are not enjoined to Christians, upon any necessity, but left to the discretion of the civil Magistrate. And therefore I have said nothing, either of those places of Deut. or of this of Ezech. which I will not by learning & good authority justify. Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 39 Sect. ult. God in that place of the prophet Ezechiel showeth how grievous a sin idolatry is, especially in the priests, but he prescribeth no general rule of secluding them from their ministery, if they falling, afterward repent. T. C. pag. 27. Sect. 4. You work a sure way, which to maintain your corruptions, deny the scripture, which speaketh against them, to be understanded of those which be in our time, & that to be understanded of our ministers, which was of there's, or of our faults, which was of there's. This is not the way to Anabaptisme, but to all heresies, & schisms, that ever have been or shall be. For if you go forward in clipping the scripture, as you begin, you will leave us nothing in the end, wherewith we may either defend ourselves against heretics, or be able to strike at them. Io. Whitgifte. I neither deny the scriptures, nor clip them, neither can my doctrine open the way to any heresy: but I speak of them in this point as all learned and sound writers do, old or new: if I do not, disprove me, not by words, but by reasons and authorities. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 40. Sect. 1 Besides this, there is a great difference betwixt the severity of the law, and the lenity of the Gospel, betwixt the external regiment of the Church before Christ, and the Church after Christ, neither can you make the one in all points correspondent to the other: Likewise betwixt the declining of those Priests, which was wholly from God to Gentility, & the falling of ours to Papistry, which confesseth the same articles of faith that we do, although not sincerely. It is one thing wholly to worship false Gods, an other thing to worship the true God falsely and superstitiously. But among all other things I would gladly know wherein king Edward's priests have offended you? It is happy you let Queen Elizabeth's priests alone. I marvel whose priests you are? T. C. Page 27. Sect. 5. 6. Whereas you say, there is a great difference between the severity of the law and lenity of the Gospel, me thinks I smell a spice of the error of the Manichees, which were also scholars in that behalf of the old heretic Cerdon, that there is a good and an evil, a gentle, and a severe God, one under the law, and an other under the Gospel. For to say that God was then a severe punisher of sin, and that now he is not at so great hatred with it, but that he will have it gentlyer & softlyer dealt with: is even all one in effect with that, which supposeth two Gods. I will join with you in it, that the transgressions of the law, in the time of the Gospel, aught rather to be severelier punished, than they were under the law, for as much as the knowledge is greater, and the abundance of the spirit of God, whereby the laws are kept is more plentiful, than under the law. At this time I will content me with the place of Zacharie (*) The place of Zach. missev derstoode. which prophesying of the kingdom Cap. 13. of Christ, and of the time of the Gospel says, that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall 'cause their own son to be put to death. Io. Whitgifte. My opinion touching the severity of the law & lenity of the Gospel, Difference betwixt the severity of the law and the lenity of the Gospel. is farther from the error of the Manichees, than yours is from the Turks or jews. I know God is as severe a punisher of sin now, as he was then, but the manner and kind of corporally punishing it, is not the same now, that it was then: Neither will I refuse to join with you in this, that Christian Magistrates are not bond to the judicial laws of Moses, touching the kind and manner of punishing sin: and yet is not this to extenuate sin one whit, but the contrary rather, as cyril doth note in his. 11. book upon Leviticus, where he showeth a reason why adultery, & other crimes were commanded in the law to be punished with corporal death, and not in the Gospel, which reason fully answereth your objection, Quid igituridicemus quòd lex Mosi crudelis est. etc. what then? shall we say that the law of Moses is cruel, which commandeth that the adulterer, and adulteress should be punished: and that the Gospel of Christ through indulgence and pardon, maketh the hearers the worse? it is not so: for to this purpose did we bring in that saying of Paul before: how much more is he worthy of more grievous punishment, which treadeth under feet the Son of God. etc. Hear therefore how neither the law was then cruel, neither yet the Gospel is now dissolute, for the greatness of forgiveness: but in both, though diversely, the loving kindness of GOD remaineth. This, that is according to the law (as for example, that the Adulterer and adulteress wear punnyshed with present death) for so much as both of them have suffered punishment for their sin, and have received due reward for the wickedness which they committed: what revengement shall afterward hung over their souls, if they have committed no other fault, if there is no other sin, which may condemn them, but only have committed this fact, and for the same have received the punishment due by the law? The Lord will not punish one thing twice, for they have received the reward for their sin, and the pain for their offence is finished. And for this cause is not this kind of commandment cruel (as the heretics affirm, accusing the law of God, and denying that there is any kind of humanity in it) but it is full of mercy: because hereby the people should rather be purged from their sins, than condemned. But now there is no punishment laid upon the body, nor any purging of sin, through corporal punishment, but through repentance, which if a man do worthily work, so that he may seem worthy to have the punishment withdrawn, he may find forgiveness. But howsoever this answer of cyril, may in some points minister occasion of quarreling to such as be disposed, yet this is evident, that the quantity of sin & the heinousness of it, is not to be esteemed according to the corporal and external punishment, but according to the commandment of God, to the which it is repugnant, and according to the threatenings of God in the scriptures pronounced against the same, for we see that lesser faults are by man punished with greater torments, even according to the state of every country. And this smelleth not one whit of the Manichees heresy, but the clean contrary. Neither do I make this difference betwixt the severity of the law, and lenity of the Gospel, in any other respect, than of temporal punishment appointed in the law. The place of Zacharie doth not make for your purpose, except you will give to the The true meaning of zachary. 13. parents power of life and death over their sons and daughters, and give liberty for one private man to kill another. The prophet in that place declareth what zeal shall be in the people against false prophets, & how much they shall prefer the true Religion of God before their own natural affection, and rather forsake their children yea hate them, and kill them, than by their means, they should be withdrawn from God: this is the true meaning of that place. If you will refer it to the time of the Gospel. But if you will apply it to the Israelites to whom this prophet now preacheth & prophesieth, then doth he declare unto them what zeal and fervency. God requireth in them, if they truly repent them of their former Idolatry: even that they shall not spare their own children, but deal with them according to the law Deu. 13. ver. 6. etc. M. Luther expounding this place and referring it to the time of the Gospel Luther. says thus: Et est haec sententiae summa. etc. The sum hereof is, that Christians shall retain, & defend true and pure doctrine, without respect of any person, whether it be his kinsman, or friend, for it is necessary that there should be false doctrine, and heresies, that the truth might be tried, but yet they shall not have the upper hand, or prevail. And interpreting these words) his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth) he says, id est, non ferreiss aut aereis armis & gladijs ipsum conficient, sed verbo Dei, erit enim spirituale & suave certamen, quale est parentum cum suis liberis, sicut & divus Paulus Corinthios confodit, & ipsorum errores verbo Dei reprehendit. That is to say, they shall destroy him not with Iron or brazen armour and weapons, but with the word of God: for the strife shall be spiritual and pleasant, such as is between parents and their Children, like as Saint Paul doth pierce through the Corinthians, and reprehendeth their errors by the word of God. But would you in deed conclude of this place, that those which have taught The bloody assertion of T. C. false doctrine must of necessity be putto death, though they repent? yea that their own parents and friends must kill them, or 'cause them to be killed, and not rather receive them willingly, if they will convert, and embrace them most joyfully? undoubtedly, the Prophet hath no such meaning: neither have you any example of such extremity committed by a true Christian towards a repentant Idolater, from the nativity of Christ unto this hour: neither is there any thing in the whole new Testament, whereby any such fact can be warranted. And howsoever this place may make, for the severe punishing of stubborn and perverse Idolaters, it maketh nothing at all for such as repent and be converted: and therefore it may be, that this place of Scripture doth content you, but surely it can not persuade any that duly considereth it, that Idolaters though they repent, may not be received both to mercy, and also into the ministery. And if any man shall think that I wring his words against his meaning, let him consider against whom he bendeth his force, and urgeth this place of Zacharie (that is, against them which have fallen, and have been massmongers, and now are none, but preachers of the Gospel) and he shall easily perceive both the blo dinesse of his opinion, and also that I have not herein dealt unfaithfully. Surely (all circumstances considered) it is not unlike that this hath been some occasion of the mischéevons attempt which of late hath been put in practice. Chap. 2. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 28. Lin. 2. & Sect. 1 It is as absurd which is brought, to prove that the Papists which worship God falsely, do not fault so heinously as the Israelites did, which worshipped the Idols. As who should say, the jews, or any other the grossest Idolaters that ever were, did (a) As who should say, that any man can doubt of this. ever take those things which they worshipped, serpents, oxen, fire, water. etc. to be God, or known not the Images, before which they fe down, were wood or stone, silver and gold. (b) A osse rour, for 〈◊〉 of the wise▪ gen ls thought that the heavens & 〈◊〉 were never created. And who knoweth not, that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them, the God which made heaven and earth. The jews when they molted a golden Calf, and fallen down before it, did (c) A manyse untruth, as shall appear. never think that to Exod. 32. be God, but said that they would keep holiday to the (d) An untruth, for they said not so Lord jehovah. wherein I will put you over to the learned trearises of the godly new writers, which do resute this distinction being brought of the Papists, as a shift to prove that the Idolatry which is forbidden in the old Testament, toucheth not them, because they worship God by these things, and the Idolatrous jews and Infidels, worshipped nothing else, nor looked at nothing else, than the bore things before which they fallen down. Which self same distinctiou you bring to prove, that Papistry is not so detestable, as the Idolatry of the jews. It may be, that certain of the Gentiles worshipped by their Images (e) This is contrary to that which you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before. jupiter & juno. etc. But you can not show, that the Israelites ever worshipped any other god, than the true God, so that their fault was only, in that they worshipped him otherwise, than he had appointed. And the Gentiles that worshipped many gods, worshipped one as the head and chief, and the rest as small companions, and as they termed them, minorum gentium deos, as the Papists do God as the chief, and the Saints as other petty Gods. And here all men may see, what a good proctor you be for the Papists, both in lessening their faults, and abating their punishments, and yet will not I say, that you are conspired with them, or have received your fee of them. But if you can show where, or in what one point, those that you charge with confederacy, have laid so soft pillows under their heads as these are: they refuse not to be called confederate, and conspired with the Papists. Io. Whitgifte. The distinction betwixt the worshipping of the false gods wholly, and the worshipping of the true God falsely and superstitiously, is not yet by you proved to have any absurdity in it. But it is great boldness for you to affirm, that the Gentiles and the most gross Idolaters never took those which they did worship for Gods, but that in them, and by them they thought they worshipped the God that made heaven and earth. For what profane Philosopher, what drunken Poet, what boy in the Grammar school knoweth The gentiles took the Images to e gods. Psal. 115. Esay. 44. jerem. 10. Baru . 6. Hist. Bel & Dracon. judg. 2. 1. Reg. 18. not the contrary? Was jupiter, Apollo, Venus, Diana. etc. Gods or Goddesses that created heaven and earth? or thought to have made heaven and earth? and yet these and such like they were, whom the Gentiles did worship even in their Images. Nay they took the very Images themselves sometimes to be their Gods. Doth not the 115. Psal. Esay. 44. jere. 10. Baruch. 6. the story of Bell and the Dragon, and the Scripture in sundry places else, manifestly declare it? And did not the jews oftentimes sin in this point as grossly as the Gentiles did? Look judge. 2. verse. 10. 11. 12. etc. 1. Reg. 18. wherein it is plain, that the jews were as gross in taking those things to be Gods in deed, as were the Gentiles. And surely I think the places in the Scripture before alleged, so manifest for the proof hereof, that no man reading the same, can any thing doubt of this matter. The words of the text do expressly signify unto us, that the Israelites took the golden Calf to be God: but be it that they may be taken there metonimically (which is but a conjecture) that can not excuse their grossness at other times, when they were conversant among the Gentiles, and alured so worship their The example of T. C. against himself. Gods. But this example serveth very well for my purpose, for Aaron did not only make this Calf, but also sacrificed unto it, and caused the people to worship it: and yet notwithstanding he was not deposed from his priesthood, although his case was all one with there's, against whom you now speak. You say the people said that they would keep holiday to the Lord jehovah, and therefore did not take the Calf to be God: wherein you say not truly, for those were the words, not of the people, but of Aaron: the people said, These be thy Exo. 32. ver. 4. Gods, O Israel, which brought thee out of the land of egypt, so that, that reason may show what Aaron thought of it: and this, what was the opinion of the people. I would have you to deal sincerely in alleging of the scriptures. You put me over to the treatises of godly new writers, which do refuse this distinction. etc. But you neither name those writers unto me, nor let me understand where to find those treatises, which maketh me suspect that you neither know whose, nor where they be: but the matter is not great. I do as much mislike that distinction of the Papists, and the intent of it, as any man doth, neither do I go about to excuse them from wicked, and (without repentance and Gods singular mercy) damnable Idolatry: But yet do I say the Idolatry both of the jews, and of the Gentiles (for the causes by me alleged) to be much greater. For there Three kinds of Idolatry. Martyr in jud. 2. Musculus in Lo. come. in expla. 1. precept. are three kinds of Idolatry. One is, when the true God is worshipped by other means and ways, than he hath prescribed, or would be worshipped. The other is, when the true God is worshipped, together with false Gods. 2. Regum. 17. The third is, when we worship false Gods either in heart and mind, or in external creatures living, or dead, and altogether forget the worship of the true God. All these three kinds are detestable, but the first is the lest, and the last is the worst: in the which kind the Israelites sundry times offended, as is manifest in the places before mentioned. The Papists worship God otherwise than his will is, and otherwise than he hath prescribed, almost in all points of their worship: they also give to the creature that which is due to the Creator, and sin against the first table: yet are they not for aught that I can see, or learn, in the third kind of Idolatry: and therefore if they repent unfeignedly, they are not to be cast either out of the Church, or out of the ministery. The Papists have little cause to thank me, or to fee me, for any thing that I have spoken in their behalf as yet: you see that I place them among wicked and damnable Idolaters. My defence is of those that have been Papists, and be not, and for no other: for them I speak my conscience according to my poor knowledge, take it as you please. Of Minister's learning of Catechisms. Chap. 3. Admonition. The third. Then (p) 1. Tim. 4. two they taught others, now they must be instructed themselves, and therefore like young children they (q) Ministers of London 〈◊〉 joined to learn M. Nowels C techisme. must learn Catechisms. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. &. Page▪ 41▪ Sect. 1. 2. God be thanked, there is a great number of Ministers that can teach others, and may be your schoolmasters in all kind of learning, except you have more than you utter in these treatises. If they that find some want of learning in themselves, or that be crept into the ministery unlearned, either of their own accord, or by commandment of their Ordinary, read and learn godly and learned Catechisms, they are to be commended, and so is he that provoketh them thereunto. That Catechism which you in derision quote in the margin, is a book fit for you to learn also: and I know no man so well learned, but it may become him to read and learn that learned and necessary book. But some arrogant spirits there be, that think themselves of all men best learned, and disdain to learn of any. That place of the fourth chapter of the first to Timothy, doth not forbidden a man to learn. He that is a good and modest preacher, will not disdain as well to be taught, as to teach. T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 2. 3. What should become of the people in the mean season, whilst they learn their Catechism, and when they have learned it, they are no more fit to be Ministers, and to teach other, than he that hath learned his Accidence, is meet to set up a school. And it can not be defended, but it was a gross oversight, to enjoin ministers to learn a Catechism. It were much to compel them to read it. And if a man would have dec amed against the ignorance of the most part of the ministers, three whole days together, he could not have said more against them, than that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion. How know you that they quote the Catechism in the margin in derision? is there any syllable or letter that soundeth that ways? if you conjecture it because they have set it in the margin, you may as well say, that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision, being also placed there. * It followeth even as the rest of your arguments do, for it is your own, and no man's else. But how followeth this? It is meet that ministers should learn every day, therefore it is meet they be enjoined to learn Catechisms? it is meet they should read Catechisms, therefore meet to learn them, and be enjoined to learn them? Is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the Minister, than to learn Catechisms? or doth a man learn those things always, which he readeth? doth he not read things sometime to record the things that he hath learned? For because they say it is not meet that ministers should be enjoined to learn a Catechism, you conclude of their words, that they would not have a minister to learn, or to read any thing, which is as far from their meaning or words either, as you are from the reasonable and upright expounding of them. Io. Whitgifte. God be thanked, the people need not pine away for lack of food, they have the Scriptures read unto them, they have also profitable and fruitef ll Homilies, they have the Sacraments rightly ministered, and public prayers in a known tongue: and sometime God sendeth unto them some well disposed preacher further to instruct them, and the Curate is not so slothefull and careless, but that he will also communicate with them that which he himself hath by diligent reading learned. Catechisms (and that especially) do contain the grounds of religion, and the principal points of faith, and good life, and therefore not unfit, or unprofitable for any man to read. I know not what weightier matters they can learn, than those that be contained in that book: except you think nothing weighty, but such matters as you now contend for: and for the which you so much disturb the peace of the Church. It is well done to enjoin them to learn it, and it shall be no disgracing, not not to yourself to read it. We do not deny but that there be unlearned Ministers in England, and we think it no discredit at all, to enjoin them to learn such things as are most profitable both for them to know, and to teach unto other. To read and to learn such an A. B. C. is not unprofitable for any: but you will still show that good opinion that you have of yourself, and how greatly you disdain all other men's labours. Whether I have truly said that note to be placed in the Margin in derision, or not, let the Reader judge, to whom also I do refer the consideration of your modesty, touching that matter. He that indifferently considereth their quotations of Scriptures, will think that the most of them, were not placed there in good earnest. The argument which it hath pleased you to frame of my words (I grant) followeth not: but this followeth right well, it is fit that ignorant Ministers should be enjoined to learn such things, as be meet and profitable for them, Ergo, they may be enjoined to learn Catechisms. And in like manner, it is meet they should read such Books as may instruct them: Ergo, they may read Catechisms. I think a man by reading, learneth: and I suppose that to read those things again, which a man hath forgotten, is to learn them again, if to learn be to understand, and to remember. But all this your dallying about this matter, is to bring discredit unto this state of the Church, because there be many ignorant Ministers. Wherefore I will answer you with the very words in the confession of the Churches in Helvetia. We condemn all unmeet Ministers, not endued with gifts necessary for a shepherd Confes. eccles. Helueti . that should feed his flock. howbeit we acknowledge that the harmless simplicity of some shepherds in the old Church, did sometimes more profit the Church, than the great, exquisite, and fine or delicate, but a little too proud learning of some others: wherefore we reject not now a days, the good simplicity of certain, so that they be not altogether unskilful of God and his word. Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people. Chap. 4. the. 1. Division. Admonition. The fourth. Then election was made by the common razors consent of the whole Church: Act. 1. 2 . now every one picketh out for himself some notable good benefice, he obtaineth the next advowson, by money or by favour, and so thinketh himself sufficiently choose. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 42. Sect. 4. 5. 6. To prove that the election was then made by the common consent Mathias elected extraordinarily. of the whole Church, you quote the first of the Acts. I told you before master calvin's judgement of that place: there is no mention of electing by any common consent. And in the place by you quoted, which is the. 26. verse, it is declared how they gave forth their lots, and that the lot fallen on Mathias, and that he was by a common consent counted with the eleven Apostles: here is no mention of any election. But when he was extraordinarily through God's providence by lot appointed, than they all counted him, and esteemed him as one of the Apostles, where as before, some of them would have had Barsabas. I think your meaning is not to have always two at once to be presented to the ministery, and then one of them to be choose by lot: I know none of that opinion. Wherefore this example is singular and extraordinary, and therefore no general rule to be followed. If any man seeketh a benefice extraordinarily, razors▪ unlawfully. If any man desire honorem, the honour, not onus, the burden: opes, the riches, not opus, the work: he hath to answer for it: but I trust you will not accuse all, though perhaps you know some, I mean of yourselves, and peradventure your own self. Admonition. The fifth. Then the congregation (s) Act. 6. 2. 3. had authority to call ministers: in stead thereof now they run, they ride, and by unlawful suit and buying, prevent other suitors also. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 42. Sect. 2. 3. To prove that the congregation had then authority to call ministers: you allege the sixte of the Acts, which place of the Acts I touched before: It speaketh not of Ministers of the word, but of Deacons, which were appointed to make provision for the poor only (as you say) neither did the multitude of the Disciples (for so they be called) elect them before they were willed so to do by the twelve Apostles. It may be that some use to run and ride, and by unlawful suit A good rule may be broken by some, and yet good still. and buying prevent others, and it may be that you have experience hereof: but all do not so, this is the fault of the man, not of the calling: you may not ascribe men's infirmities to a lawful order. The rule may be good, though it be by some broken. T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 4. It hath been likewise showed, what was in that election extraordinary, and what pertaineth to the ordinary callings. And in the sixte of the Acts it was showed, if the Deacons should not be thrust upon the congregation against the will of it, much less aught the minister. And if that congregation had by the commandment of the Apostles, an interest in the choice of their governors, I see not why the same commandment remaineth not to be followed of other Churches. Your reasons wherewith you would make difference, shall be after considered, Io. Whitgifte. And I have likewise answered to whatsoever you have said there, but you tell us neither there nor here, how aptly this part of the text, scilicet, verse. 26. is in this place quoted. To your reason also gathered out of the sixte of the Acts in the electing of Deacons I have there answered: only I thought good in this place to set down the judgement of Chrysostom Hom. 14. in Act. Ideò boc non permiserunt Chryso. Hom. 14. in Act. sorti, veque cum possent ipsi spiritu moti, eligere, hoc faciunt: sed magis statuunt quod multorum testimonijs approbatur. Nam definire numerum, & ordinare, & in talem usum, hoc sibi vendicant: Eligere autem viros illis permittunt, ut ne videantur ipsi in gratiam quorundam agere. The Apostles did not commit the election of Deacons to lot, neither they being moved with the spirit, did choose them, though they might have so done: for to appoint the number, to ordain them, and to such an use, they challenged as due unto themselves. And yet do they permit the election of them to the people, lest they should be thought to be partial, or to do any thing for favour. Your reasons to prove that to be a perpetual rule, shall not (God willing) be passed over in their place. Chap. 4. the. 2. Division. Admonition. The sirthe. Then no (t) Act. 14. 13. 2. Cor. 8. 19 minister placed in any congregation, but by the consent of the people. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 42. Sect. ult. Coprove that no Minister was placed in any congregation, but by the consent of the people, you allege the. 14. of the Acts, and of the. 2. to the Corinthians, the eight chapter. In the. 14. of the Acts, verse. 23. (for the which you have quoted the. 13.) it is thus written. When they (that is Paul and Barnabas) had ordained them elders by election (for so is some translation) in every Church, and prayed and fasted. etc. The text is plain that Paul and Barnabas did ordain them Elders. T. C. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Unto these places of the first and sixte of the Acts is added, first the place of the fourteenth of the Acts, where the authors of the Admonition do prove, that the election aught not to be in one man his hand, but aught to be made by the Church, against which master Doctor taketh three exceptions. The first is, for that it is said that Paul and Barnabas ordained Elders, whereby he would conclude, that the congregations had nothing to do. But how slender a reason that is, it may be considered of infinite places in the Scripture, whereof I will recite two or three. In the fifth Chapter of josua it is said, that josua made him sharp knives for the circumcising of the children of Israel, and a little afterwards, that josua circumcised them. Shall we now upon these words conclude, that josua did make the knives himself, or was a Cutler, or being made to his hand, did whet them, and sharpen them, or shall we say that he did circumcise the children of Israel in his own person, and himself alone, when as that was done by many, and by the Levites, to whom that office appertained? Not, but the Scripture declareth, that josua procured sharp knives to be made, and exhorted and commanded the people to be circumcised. In the eighteenth of Exodus, it is said that Moses did appoint unto the people, Princes, Captains over thousands and hundrethes. etc. And if any conciude thereupon that he did it 1. Chap. verse. 15. himself alone, he is by and by confuted by that which is written in Deuteronomie, where it appeareth that the people did choose them, and presented them to Moses. What is it then that is said in Erodus, that Moses appointed them, but that Moses assembled the people, and exhorted them to appoint rulers, and told them what manner of men they should be, and in a word, sat as it were, moderator in that election. To come to the new Testament. In the Acts it is said, that Paul and Timothy delivered Act. 16. unto the Churches, the orders and decrees of the Apostles and Elders, and yet it appeareth in another place, that the Church had also to do, and gave their consent unto the making Act. 15. verse. 23. of those decrees, so that the former place means, that the Apostles and Elders did go before, and were the chief, and directors of that action. The same manner of speech is used of the * You say so, but you show not one. Roman stories, wherein it is said, that the Counsel did make Magistrates, for because that he gathered the assembly and voices, whereby they were made: and so S. Luke saith here, that Paul and Barnabas ordained, because they being the moderators of the election, caused it to be made, assembled the Churches, told them of the necessity of having good pastors and governors, gathered the voices, took heed that nothing should be done lightly, nothing tumultuously or out of order. And so to conclude, it is an evil reason to say as M. Doctor doth, that because S. Luke hath, that Paul and Barnabas ordained, therefore the people were excluded. Io. Whitgifte. If the reason grounded upon the plain words of the scripture, be but a slender reason, then do I confess that to be so likewise. Howbeit, very godly and learned men think it a reason sufficient. Zuinglius in his Eccless. saith, that some were called & elected Zuinglius. Bullinger. to the ministery of the word, by the Apostles only. Bullinger in his third book adversus Anabap. Cap. 4. saith thus: Paulus & Barnabas presbyteros seu ministros elege unt in ecclesijs Asiae. Paul and Barnabas did choose Elders or Ministers in the Churches of Asia. Those places of Scripture that you recite, may prove that there are such manner of speeches in the scripture, but they prove not that this is such, and therefore you have in vain rehearsed them. The example of josua is far from proving this phrase, to be such, sore you affirm, that josua is said to make sharp knives, and to Circumcic , only because hcc procured sharp knives to be made, and commanded the people to be circumcided, and not because he himself bid sharpen the knives, or circumcyde in his own person: But it is certain that Paul and Barnabas had to do in this action, and did themselves in their own people, ordain ministers, and not command others to ordain them. Wherefore the manner of speech can not be like, except you will expound this place thus: Paul and Barnabas ordained them Elders, that is, commanded the people to choose them Elders, which interpretation were strange for this place, and unheard of before. That in the syrste of Deuteronomie doth not directly prove, that Moses alone did not appoint those Magistrates, for although he willed the people to bring unto him men of wisdom, and of understanding. etc. yet it followeth not that they did so, but it rather appeareth, that they committed the choice of them wholly to him, for after in the fyftéenth verse of the same Chapter he sayeth, So I took the chief of your tribes, wise and known men, and made Deu. 1. Ver. 15. them rulers. etc. Manifest it is (that whether the people named any unto him or not) he appointed them, and gave them their authority, so that the manner of speech is proper, and without any trope or figure. But do you not still secretly push at the authority of the Civil Magistrate, T. C. under an other pretence pusheth at the civil Magistrate. under the pretence of speaking against the state Ecclesiastical? For howsoever you would seem to bring in the place in the eighteenth of Exodus, to prove the phrase and manner of speaking, yet may you be thought secretly to insinuate that Princes may not appoint under-officers, without the Election of the people. And surely if your dealing in this place be well marked, it may easily be seen, that in reasoning against the government of the Church, you lay the grounds of confounding, or at the least, of changing the state of the Common wealth. In the fifteenth of the Acts ver. 22. and. 23. there appeareth, that the whole Church together with the Apostles and Elders, did send certain choose men of their own company to Antiochia, with Paul and Barnabas. etc. and written Letters by them containing these Decrees: whereunto though the people subscribed, and gave their consent, yet it followeth not, but that the Apostles and Elders made them: As it also appeareth verse. 2. and. 6. of the same chapter. Every one that consenteth to Orders, and subscribeth unto them, doth not therefore make them: Wherefore they may properly be said to be made by the Apostles and Elders only, though the people allowed well of them, and consented to them. And therefore saith M. Caluine: the modesty of the people Cal. in. 15. Act. herein doth appear, that after they had committed the deciding of the controversies to the Apostles, and other Doctors, they were also content to subscribe to their decree. Whether there be any such manner of speech or no in the Roman stories, it is not material: neither is there any thing here spoken, which proveth that this is such a manner of speech: wherefore it must remain as proper and literally true, until there be stronger reasons brought to prove as plainly, that the people ordained ministers, as it is here written, that Paul and Barnabas did. Chap. 4. the third Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 43. Lin. 8. And the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although it signify to elect, by putting up of hands, yet it is the common opinion almost of all Ecclesiastical writers, that this word in Scripture is used for the solemn manner of ordering ministers by the imposition of hands. T. C. Pag. 29. Sect. 6. & Pag. 30. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And I marvel with what conscience he could answer so in this place, especially where it is forthwith added, that they ordained them by the suffrages, and voices of the Church. But you say that the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is by the common opinion of almost all ecclesiastical writers, used in the scripture for the solemn manner of ordaining of ministers, by the imposition of hands: which is the second exception you take to this reason. Wherein, but that I have promised to hold myself to the matter, and that these bold asseverances in matters most untrue, are so common, that if I should every foot pursue them, I should weary myself and all others, I could not keep myself from running out to marvel at such high speeches void of truth. First, where you say that somè translation hath, that they ordained ministers without making mention of Election, what have you gained thereby, when I can show more that translate it otherwise, and say it is, that they ordained by election, or voices, or suffrages? I had not the commodity of Books, whereby I could see the judgement of all Ecclesiastical writers. But of those which I had, I find that there was but (a) An untruth, as will appear. one, only M. Gualther of that mind, and yet he doth not shut out the people's consentin the Election, neither M. Caluine, M. Beza, M. Bullinger, M. Musculus, M. Brentius, he that translated Chrysostom upon that place, Erasmus in his Paraphrases upon that place are of the contrary judgement, of whose judgement I would not have spoken, if you would not have go about, thus to abuse your reader, with such manifest untruths, to overthrow the order which God hath established. But let all authorities of men go, and let us examine the thing in itself. If so be that the holy Ghost had meant the solemn putting on of the hands upon the head of him that was created Elder and Minister, had he not words enough to utter this his meaning? would he have for laying on of hands used a word that signifieth lifting up of hands: would he have used a word signifying holding up for laying down? for when the hands are laid of the head of an other, they are laid down, and not held up. There are words in the old Testament, and in the new before Luke written, and after he written, to express this Ceremony of laying on of hands, and yet none have ever expressed this. Saint Paul speaketh thrice of it in his Epistles to Timothy, and always he useth 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 5. 2. Tim. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. In the old Testament where this ceremony is used and spoken of, the Septuaginta did never traslate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, But as the writers of the new Testament, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And what should I stand in this, when as Saint Luke himself, both before and after, speaking of that Ceremony of laying on of hands, doth never use this word 8. Acts. 9 Acts. 19 Acts. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but the same word which Saint Paul useth, and the Septuaginta? And although the Holy Ghost speak properly, and well by whom soever he speaketh, yet it could have been worst of all said by Saint Luke, of all the Canonical writers, that he should speak thus unproperly, who of them all writeth most purely and elegantely, according to the phrase of the most eloquent Grecians, and therefore he borrowed this speech of the ancient Greek writers, which did use to express their Elections by this word, because they were made, and voices given by this Ceremony of lifting up of hands. But what if Saint Luke have used this word before, and in this book, in the signification of choosing by voice, dare you then say, that he useth it here for putting on of hands? In the. 10. of the Acts Saint Peter saith, that Christ after his resurrection, appeared not unto the whole people, but unto those whom he had before choose by his (b) If you will grant that this word is taken for electing by one voice, we shall soon agreed. voice, to be his witnesses, he useth this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Now if you will say here, that it is to be turned, those of whom he laid his hands: I will ask you where you read, that ever he laid his hands of their heads. I will show you where he did by his heavenly voice appoint them. And I think you are not able to show in any Greek author ancient, and which men do take to be authentical to teach the property or eloquence of the greek tongue I mean which were before Saint Luke his time, where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any. This I confess that the Greek Ecclesiastical writers have sometimes used it so, but you must remember that Saint Luke could not learn to speak of them that came two or three hundred years after him? but he borrowed this phrase of speech of those that were before him, and therefore speaketh of elections as they did. So that you see this shift will not serve. Io. Whitgifte. There is nothing to prove that they ordained them by the suffrages of the Church, but this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the acceptation whereof in this place is now in question: I say still, that although it properly signify to elect by putting up of hands, yet is it the common opinion almost of all ecclesiastical The signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 writers, that it is used in Scripture for the solemn manner of ordering ministers by the imposition of hands. And that this is neither so strange nor so untrue, as you would seem to make the reader believe, I have set down those authors which have taught me so to say. Bullinger upon the same place sayeth thus: Caeterum dictio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, ita ponitur, ut velsuffragijs populi delectos esse, vel manuum impositione inauguratos intelligere possimus. But the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is so placed that we may understand either that they were choose by the voices of the people, or ordained by the laying on of hands. M. Caluine upon the same place hath these words, Verbum Graecum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 significat Calvin. aliquid manibus sublatis discernere, qualiter in commitijs populi fieri solet. Scriptores tamen ecclesiastici nomen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alio sensu usurpant: nempè pro solenni ordinationis ritu, qui in Scriptures vocatur, manuum impositio. The greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth to determine some thing by holding up of hands, according as it was usual in the assemblies and elections of the people: notwithstanding the Ecclesiastical writers use this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in an other sense. For the solemn manner of ordering, which in the scriptures is called the laying on of hands. And this saying of M. Caluine hath Marlorat also written in his collections, as allowing the same. The same M. Caluine Instit: cap. 8. Sect. 65. Sequitur iam ut tractemus. etc. It followeth now that we should entreat of the manner whereby the ministers of the primitive Church were placed in their office. This the Latinistes call ordering or consecration, the Grecians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and sometimes also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: although 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is properly called that kind of election, wherein the voices are signified by lifting up of hands. Gualther. Likewise Gualther upon the fourteenth of the Acts. Deinde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mentionem facit Lucas. etc. Furthermore Luke maketh mention of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, by the which not only the gathering of voices, but also the laying on of hands, which was a sign of consecration, may be signified: And surely the latter seemeth most convenient. For it is not likely that the Apostles would depart from that order, which we see to have been observed in the election of Mathias, and permit any thing to the judgement of man (which in voices oftentimes cometh to pass) seeing that they stirred up the whole Church to prayer and fasting. Thus than you see that the matter is nothing so strange as you make it: for all these learned writers affirm as much touching the acceptation of this word, as I have done: and if you will give me leave to allege the Canons attributed to the Apostles, as you do, I will find it there taken in thesame signification also: for in Can. Apost. 1. &. 2. the first Canon it is thus written, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Let a bishop be ordained of two or three Bishops. And in the second Can. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Let a minister be ordained of one Bishop. You can not deny, but that the old translations and commentaries also make only mention of electing and ordaining, and not of electing or ordaining by voices. Oecumenius in his commentaries upon this place doth affirm, that Paul and Barnabas did created and ordain them: so do other likewise: and howsoever the word in Chrysostom is translated, yet Chrysostom giveth no signification in his Chaysost. in 14. in Act. commentaries that his meaning was so. But Hom. 14 in Act. he writeth thus, Vide quomodò scriptor. etc. Mark how the writer is not superfluous, for he doth not declare how, but he simply declareth, that they were ordained by prayers: for this i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ordinatio, that is to say, ordaining, the hands are laid upon the man, but God worketh the whole, and it is his hand that toucheth the head of him that is ordained, if he be ordeynedas Jerome. as he aught to be. Jerome also writing upon the. 58. of isaiah sayeth, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is usually taken for the ordaining of Clerks, by Prayer and laying on of hands. I deny not but that many do translate it, as you say, yet is it doubtful in 〈◊〉. divers of them whether they meant the voices of the whole Church, or of the ministers, or of Paul and Barnabas only. M. Bullinger sayeth that he is elected by the common suffrages of the people, qui optimorum testimonio probatus est: which is approved by the testimony of the best. And the law saith, in publico negotio qui se non apponit cum possit, consentire intelligitur, he is thought to consent in a public business, which doth not withstand when he may. I think your complaint for lack of books is without cause, & very unlikely it is to be true, all things considered. How so ever M. Caluine, or M. Bullinger do take that word themselves, yet have they affirmed as much of the other signification, as I have done, and therefore the more like to be true. Neither have you as yet alleged any thing that can prove the contrary. You may not teach the Holy Ghost how to speak, neither must you in such matters use so light and vain reasons. Neither M. Bullinger nor M. Caluine disalloweth that signification, or goeth about to confute it, and you yourself confess, that the Greek Ecclesiastical writers have semetyme used it so, as in deed they commonly do, which may easily be understanded, by that that I have hitherto spoken. He that layeth his hands upon a man's head, doth lift them up before he can say them on, and therefore you do but trifle in making so much a do about holding up, and laying down. There be other weordes, (I grant) to express this Ceremony of laying on of hands, and I know that Luke and Paul do use an other word for the same, and the Septuagint. in like manner, but what is all this to the purpose? What can you conclude hereof? Is this sufficient to prove, that this word therefore in this place may not signify the same? are these bore conjectures sufficient, to improve so many learned men's judgements. I do not say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signify only the bore Ceremony of laying on of hands, but the whole solemnity of creating Ministers, which is also sometimes signified by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as namely, 1. Ti. 9 But Saint Luke, when he useth in other places 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, he doth use it in the bore signification of laying on of hands, and not for any other rite or solemnity, as he doth this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place: and therefore you do petere principium, when you frame your proofs, as though it were affirmed or granted, that Saint Luke by this word should mean only the bore ceremony of imposition of hands. T. C. bringeth a place against himself. The place that you allege out of the tenth of the Acts maketh most against yourself, and overthroweth your whole building. first, because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not there taken for lifting up of hands, but for appointing or ordaining only: for Christ did not appoint his Disciples by lifting up of hands: Secondly, it signifieth not to appoint or to ordain by the suffrages and consent of other: for Christ required no man's consent in the choice of his Apostles: so that you have lost and not gained by alleging of that place: for as this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the tenth of the Acts doth not signify, that the Apostles were choose by the consent or voice of any other, than of Christ only: so doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also in this fourteenth of the Acts signify, that Paul and Barnabas did appoint and ordain them ministers by their own voices only, and not by the suffrages of the people. Certainly that place of the tenth of the Acts manifestly declareth, that this word in Scripture doth not signify any common Election by the voices of the people, as you would have it to do. Wherefore I think that their judgement can not justly be misliked, which say this word in this fourteenth of the Acts, to signify the solemn manner of ordaining Ministers by the imposition of hands: not meaning thereby the bore Ceremony, but the whole action of ordaining. To conclude, I will desire no other interpretation of this word in the. 14. of the Acts, than that same place which you have alleged Acts. 10. which also answereth, what so ever you have here spoken of Saint Luke's skill in the Greek tongue: or of the use of this word in the Scriptures: so that I shall not need any other Author before Saint Luke's time, to prove the same. Chap. 4. the fourth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 43. Lin. 12. Surely howsoever the word is taken, yet here is no general rule prescribed of electing ministers. You may as well conclude, that all things ought to be common among Christians, because we read Act. 2. that all those which believed, had all things common among them: and that those which be converted to the Gospel, aught to cell their goods and lands, to be distributed at the discretion of the ministers, because they did so. Act. 2. &. 3. T. C. Pag. 30. Sect. 5. 6. & Pag. 31. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Let us therefore see your third: which is, that although the Church's consent was then required, yet it is not now, and that it is no general rule, no more than (say you) that all things should be therefore common now, because they were in the Apostles tyme. The authors of the Admenition, with their favourers, must be counted Anabaptistes, not one word being showed which tendeth thereunto, you must accuse them, which confirm that foundation whereof they build their community of all things, which is one of their chief heresies. If I should say now that you are like to those that row in a boat, which although they look backwards, yet they thrust an other way, I should speak with more likelihood than you have done. For although you make a countenance, and speak hotly against Anabaptistes, yet in deed you strengthen their hands with reasons. But I will not say so, neither do I think that you favour that sect, but only the whirlwind and tempest of your affection bent to maintain this estate, whereby you have so great honour and wealth, driveth you upon these rocks, to wrack yourself on, and others. For I pray you what community is spoken of either in the two, or three, or forth of the Acts, which aught not to be in the Church: as long as the world standeth? was there any community but as touching the use, and so far forth as the poor brethren had need of, and Act. 1. Act. 5. not to take every man alike? was it not in any man his power to cell his houses, or lands, or not to cell them? When he had sold them, were they not in every man his liberty to keep the money to himself at his pleasure? and (a) The text sayeth plainly, that as many as were possessoures of lands. etc. soul them. all they that were of the Church did not cell their possessions, but those whose hearts the Lord touched singularly with the compassion of the need of others, and whom God had blessed with abundance, that they had to serve themselves, and help others, and therefore it is reckoned as a rare example, that Barnabas the Cyprian and Levite did cell his possession, and brought the price to the feet of the Apostles. And as for Ananias and Saphira, they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles, but because they lied, saying that they had brought the whole when they had brought but part. And to be short, is there any more done there, than Saint Paul prescribeth to the Corinthians, and in them to all Churches to the worlds end? After he had exhorted to liberality towards the poor Church in Jerusalem, not (sayeth 2. Cor. 8. he) that other should be relieved, and you oppressed, but upon like condition at this time your abundance supplieth their lack, that also their abundance may be for your lack, that there might be equality, as it is written, he that gathered much, had nothing over, and he that gathered little, had not the less. Surely it were better you were no Doctor in the Church, than that the Anabaptistes should have such hold to bring in their community as you give them. In sum the apostolic community, or the Churches in their time, was not Anabapti tical. Io. Whitgifte. I have showed before in the beginning of my Answer to the Admonition, Not good argument, a f ▪ cto ad iu . not only how weak, but also how dangerous a kind of reasoning it is, to say, that the Apostles did it, Ergo, we must do it, or the Apostles did it not, Ergo we must not do it. Zuinglius a notable learned man, doth especially reprove the Anabaptistes for this kind of reason, and sayeth that an argument, à facto ad ius, or à non facto ad non ius, is never good, except those examples be grounded upon some law or rule. Wherefore, when I thus labour to overthrow the vicious manner and kind of the anabaptistical argument, I trust no indifferent man will suspect me of their errors? when I say, that this is no good argument: In the Apostles time those that believed had all things common among them, therefore Christians must have all things common: do I confirm their heresy of having all things common? I know not why you should so charge me with the whirlwind and tempest of my affection bent to maintain this estate. etc. except you be offended because I show the weakness of the Anabaptistes reasons for their community. My honour and wealth is not so much, but yet I would be loath to have it common, and you may not blame me though I maintain that state, where all men may quietly enjoy their own, without confusion. I know the Anabaptistes do not only err in their kind of reasoning, but in the right understanding of the Scriptures also, even of those places whereupon they frame their argument. But the text sayeth plainly, Omnes qui credebant. etc. All which believed, were in one place, and had all things common. Acto. 2. &. 4. Quotquot Act. 2. Act. 4. enim possessores praediorum aut domorum erant. etc. For as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them. etc. And though they were greatly to be commended in selling their lands and possessions, and in so lightly esteeming the riches of this world, yet it followeth not, that no man can be a good Christian, unless he follow that example. There are sundry places of the Scripture that overthrow the anabaptistical community: and therefore howsoever they understand these examples, yet can they not prove their error, for it is true that Zuinglius sayeth, Nullius facta iuri praeiudicant, examples must give place when they be against a general law, commandment or right. I have not spoken one word of Ananias and Saphira, and therefore I muse to what purpose you bring them in: neither am I against the interpretation of those places of the Acts, yet do I say, that no man is bound of necessity to follow those examples, except it were in the like time, and state. So that if the Anabaptistes both err in the understanding of those places, and in their kind of reasoning also as they do in both. M. Doctor may keep his Doctorship still, and they be far enough from their community. The community that was in the Apostles time was Christian, and most fit for that time, but the same may not now be urged in the self same manner, and form, without suspicion of Anabaptisms. And it is a very good argument against you: for as the community used amongst the Christians Act. 2. &. 4. was godly, and yet not necessary nor meet for all states of the Church, even so the election then used was also godly, and yet not at all times to be practised, but only in the like state of time. Chap. 4. the fift Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 43. Lin. 20. & Sect. 1 In the second to the Corinthians. 8. the Apostle declareth how the Churches had choose Luke (or as some think Barnabas) to be his companion in his journey: But what maketh this for electing of ministers? how followeth this argument? The Churches had choose Luke or Barnabas, to be Paul's companion in his journey: therefore ministers of the word must be elected by the people? These three last reasons are all one, and the places of Scripture which I have set down, and answered, be alleged of you to prove, that the election of ministers, was then made by the common consent of the people, and that every congregation had authority to call their ministers. T. C. Page. 31. Sect 4. Unto the place of the. 2. epistle to the Corinthians, and. 8. chapter, you ask what maketh that to the election of the ministers? But why do not you say here as you did in the other place, that the Apostle means nothing else but the putting on of the hands of them which ordained? For the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here used, that was there, and this place doth manifestly and without all contradiction convince your vain signification that you make of it in the other place, and the untruth wherein you say that the scripture useth this word for a solemn manner of ordering ministers, by putting on of hands. For here it is said, that he that was joined with Paul, was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the Church, and it is manifest that the imposition of hands, was not by the Church and people, but by the elders and ministers, as it appeareth in S. Paul to Timothy. 1. Tim. 4. 2. Tim. 1. Now to come to that which you make so light of: for say you, how followeth this: The Church chose Luke or Barnabas to be companion of Paul's journey: Ergo the Churches must choose their ministers? It followeth very well, for if it were thought meet that S. Paul should not choose himself of his own authority, a companion to help him, being an Apostle, is there any Archbishop that shall dare take upon him to make a minister of the Gospel, being so many degrees (both in authority and in all gifts needful to discern, and trieout, or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the Gospel) inferior to S. Paul. And if S. Paul would have the authority of the Church to ordain the Minister, that should aid him in other places, to the building and gathering of other Churches, how much more did he think it meet, that the Churches should choose their own Minister, which should govern them: & which things may be also said of the election in the first of the Acts. For there the * Vntr . Church first chose two, whereof one should be an Apostle, which should not be minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world, so that always the Apostles have shunned to do any thing of their own wills, without the knowledge either of those Churches, where they instituted any governors, or if it were for the behoof of those places where there were no Churches gathered, yet would they ordain none, but by the consent of some other Church, which was already established. Io. Whitgifte. Of the acceptation of this word in the. 14. of the Acts, I have spoken sufficiently This place is not one whit contrary to any thing that is said in that matter: for in the 14. of the Acts it is referred to the appointing of ministers of the word, and in this place of the second. Cor. 8. it is applied to the sending of some with Paul to gather the benevolence of the Churches, and to carry the same to the poor Saints. Now though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signify the imposition of hands, or the whole action of ordering ministers, when it is referred to that matter, yet doth it not follow, that it should always signify so, to whatsoever it is applied. But take it as you list, it is as well spoken of one alone, as of many, as the place Act. 10. manifestly declareth: and therefore doth not of necessity signify an election made by the people, except some other word be joined with it, to express the same, as there is in this. 2. Cor. 8. For thus the Apostle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which addition should not have needed, if this word 2. Cor. 8. alone had of necessity signified in the scripture any such election, as you would have it to do. In the argument there is no sequel at all, for it was very convenient and meet, Why the come panions of Paul were choose by consent. for the avoiding of suspicion of private gain, or corrupt dealing, that such as should have to do in gathering and distributing alms, should be choose by a common consent: and it is manifest, that it was Paul's own request to have them in this business, by the consent of the Churches, joined with him, for the stopping of the mouths of such as would otherwise have been ready to suspect Paul's integrity in that money matter: and that this is true, these words declare, declinantes boc nè quis nos carpat in bat 2. Cor. 8. exuber antia quae administratur à nobis, procurantes bonesta. etc. Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance that is ministered by us, providing for honest things, not only before the Lord, but also before men: as though he would say, therefore have I procured that by the consent of the Churches some might be joined with me in this collection, lest any man should take occasion to suspect me of corrupt dealing, or to report, that in this business I rob the Church to enrich myself. Now therefore how any thing can be gathered of this place, to prove that ministers of the word aught to be choose by a common consent of the people, let the reader judge. Paul might have choose them himself if he would, but he desired the Churches to choose them, that his upright dealing in collecting and distributing of the alms, might not be brought into suspicion, as I have said before. And therefore an Archbishop may dare take upon him to make a minister of the Gospel. etc. for any thing that is in this place to the contrary. In deed if an Archbishop should be appointed to collect, and to distribute alms, than were it fit (for his own credit sake, and to avoid the slanderous speeches of those that be quarrelous) that he should desire some to be joined with him, by the common consent of those of whom he should collect. And this is the only thing that may be gathered of this place, touching any election. It is untrue, that in the first of the Acts the Church did first choose those two, that stood in the election for the Apostleship: the Apostles only did propound them to the church, as M. Beza truly says in these words, apparet cum eligendus esset qui in judae proditoris locum Beza. li. confe. cap. 5. succederet, fuisse multitudini propositos ab Apostolis eos, quos maximè idoneos censebant. It appeareth, when he was to be choose, which should succeed in the room of judas the traitor, that they were propounded unto the multitude by the Apostles, whom they thought most meet. Neither were the Apostles choose by men, but immediately by God, as all writers confess, which was the cause why mathias was there choose by lot, and not by the voices of men. Why in the Apostles time it was convenient to require the consent of the people in some things, and yet not convenient now so to do, is declared afterwards. Chapter. 4. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 43. Sect. ult. I do not deny but in the Apostles time, and after even to Cyprians The consent of the people unto Cyprians time. time, the people's consent was in many places required in the appointing of ministers. T. C. Page. 31. Sect. ult. &. Pag. 32. Sect. 1 You will not deny but that in the Apostles time, and S. Cyprians time in many places, the consent of the people was required: show any one place where it was not. Doth not S. Luke say that it was done Church by Church, that is in every Church? And where you say it endured (*) An untruth, for I say not, but to Cypria time. but to S. Cyprians time, it shall appear to all men that it endured in the Church a thousand years and more after his time: and it appeareth in the. 4. epistle of his first book that he used it not as a thing indifferent, but necessary, and argueth the necessity of it, of the place of the first of the Acts, which is alleged by the authors of the Admonition. And so they are not their arguments that you throw up so scornfully, saying, how followeth this, and this, what proveth it? but Cyprians, whom by their sides you thrust through, and so unreverently handle. Io. Whitgifte. You bid me show any one place where the consent of the people was not required in electing of ministers, in the Apostles, or in Cyprians time. I might rather ask you this question, Election of ministers by the people not general in the apostles time. especially of the Apostles time, and bid you show unto me any one place, that directly proveth the consent of the people to have been required in the election of the ministers of the word. In the first of the Acts, the Apostles propounded two, and the election was not by voice, but by lot. In the. 14. of the Acts it is plain, that Paul and Barnabas did choose the ministers of the word. S. Paul says to Timothy. 1. Ti. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Tit. 1. 〈◊〉 manus citò ne cui imponas: lay hands on no man suddenly. And to Titus Chap. 1. that for this cause he left him at Creta. etc. That he should ordain elders in every city. To be short, Christ himself alone, without the consent of any other, appointed his Apostles. Show you me the like evident places for your purpose if you can. The 6. of the Acts is but of Deacons: who because they were occupied about movey Why Deacons were choose by come mon consent. Act. 6. 2. Cor. 8. matters, and collecting and distributing of alms, it was meet that they should be choose by a common consent, to avoid the grudging of the people that gave alms, and the suspicion of others, as the place itself doth manifestly declare. Acts. 6. There arose a murmuring of the Grecians towards the Hebrues, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministering. etc. The. 2. Cor. 8. is to the like effect, whereof I have spoken sufficientely. There only remaineth too help you, this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which I have proved not of necessity to signify in the scripture any election by the people, except there be some other word added unto it, to express the same as there is. 2. Cor. 8. and therefore my assertion is grounded upon the plain and evident places of the scriptures, yours upon likelihoods and conjectures only. And if it were as lawful for me to allege the Canons attributed to the Apostles, as it is for you (who have alleged them in sundry places) then could I tell you out of them also, that the electing of ministers by the people, was not general at that time: Cano. Apo. 36. as it may be gathered out of the. 36. Canon. If you will beléeùe Eusebius li. 2. eccle. histo. cap. 23. or Zuinglius in his eccles. you shall Euseb. Zuinglius found that the Apostles did appoint and ordain james to be Bishop of Nierusalem. But I will not now stand upon this matter, I shall have more occasion to speak of it hereafter: in the mean time, this which I have said is sufficient to satisfy your request, for the Apostles time. Touching that of Luke, that it was done Church by Church, if you mean the ordering of ministers by Paul and Barnabas, it is answered before, where I have showed that it maketh against you: if you understand by every Church, those Churches where Paul and Barnabas were together, then do you expound Church by Church well: else not. But this is not material. Election of ministers by the people not general in th' 〈◊〉 of Cyprian. Now that the electing of ministers by the people was not general in Cyprians time, I prove by Cyprians own words. li. 1. epist. 4. where he speaking of electing by the people says, quod apud nos quoque, & ferè per provincias universas tenetur, which also is observed with us, and almost throughout all provinces etc. In that he says it was almost in every province, he plainly signifieth that there were some provinces, wherein this Cyprian. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 4. manner and form of electing was not used. When I say that the consent of the people was required in many places even to Cyprians time, I do not deny, but that it was also required after Cyprians time, neither do I speak any otherwise in that point, than Musculus Musculus. hath spoken in his common places: ti. de verbi. ministris, where he saith thus, haec forma electionis ad Cypriani usquè tempora in ecclesijs duravit. etc. This form of election remained in the Churches until Cyprians time. I know it was both before, and after Cyprians time, in many places: but that is not the question (for it partly is, and shall more at large hereafter be declared, that it was also otherwise both before and after Cyprians time) but our question is whether it aught to be so at all times, or not, & at this time, especially in this Church of England. You say it appeareth that Cyprian in his. 4. epistl of his. 1. Book useth it not as a thing indifferent. etc. Surely if Cyprians words be well considered you will be found not The place of 〈◊〉 examined. to have reported truly of him: for he with other Bishops, answering the 〈◊〉 that was demanded of them touching Martialis and Basilides, whether (seeing they were convicted of heinous crimes) they might still enjoy their office, and minister unto the Lord, first, declareth out of Exod. 19 Levi. 21. etc. of what integrity and holiness those aught to be that serve the altar, and celebrated divine sacrifices. Likewise they show that such precepts must be obeyed, and heed taken, that none be choose into the ministery, but such as be blameless, signifying by the way, how greatly that people doth offend, that doth communicate with a sinful priest, and consenteth to the unjust and unlawful office of him, that is placed over them, showing out of the Prophet Osee and the book of numbers, what punishment is due unto them, that be contaminated with the sacrifice of a profane and unlawful priest: where upon he bringeth in these words: propter quod plebs obseque s praeceptis dominicis, & deum metuens, a peccatore praeposito separare se debet, nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere, cum ipsa maximè habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes, vel indignos recusandi. Quod & ipsum videmus de divina authoritate discendere, ut sacerdos plebe present sub omnium oculis deligatur, & dignus atquè idoneus publico judicio, ac testimonio comprobetur. etc. For which cause, the people obeying the commandments of the Lord, and fearing God, aught to separate themselves from a wicked governor, & not to communicate in the sacrifices of a wicked priest, for so much as they especially have authority, either to choose those priests which be worthy, or else to refuse them which are unworthy. The which thing also we see to proceed of the authority of God, that the priest should be choose before the face of all, the people being present, and that he which is sit and worthy, should by the public judgement and testimony be approved, as the Lord commanded Moses in the book of numbers saying, take Aaron thy brother, and Eleazar his son, for Aaron shall be gathered to his fathers, and shall dye there. God commanded the priest to be appointed before the whole synagogue, that is, he declareth that the ordering of priests aught not to be, but (sub populi 〈◊〉 is conscientia) by the knowledge of the people standing by, that the people being present, vel detegantur malorum crimina, vel bonorum merita praedicentur. etc. either the faults of evil men might be bewrayed, or the deserts of those which are good might be commended: and that that ordering might be just and lawful, which shall be examined by the voices and judgement of all. Which thing was afterward observed according to the rule of God, when as Peter spoke unto the people, concerning the choosing of a bishop into the place of judas. Where the words of Cyprian and the other Bishops be plain, that the ordering of ministers aught to be in the presence of the people, to the intent they may object any thing against them if they can, but not that it aught to be by their voices and election, the which the example that he useth of Eleazar Num. 20. and the words that he reciteth out of the first of the Acts, plainly declare, for though Eleazar was placed in Aaron's room in the presence of the people, yet had they no voices in his election: Not more had they in the election of Mathias, though it were in their presence. That also which followeth in the same epistle doth prove this to be their true meaning, for a little after, it is said, propter quod diligenter de traditione divina. etc. Wherefore it aught diligently to be observed and held as proceeding from the tradition of God, and the observation of the Apostles (the which also is retained almost throughout all provinces) that, to the intent orders should be rightly celebrated, all the next Bishops of the same province, should assemble unto that people, to whom a governor is to be appointed, and that the Bishop should be choose in the presence of the people, which doth fully know the life of every one. etc. so that Cyprians meaning is to have the people present at the ordering of ministers, that if they know any crime in them, they may object it: if not, with their silence allow of the parties: for as the law says ta iturnitas pro consensu habetur, silence is taken for a consent. And to this purpose serve the places that he useth Numer. 20. Act. 1. and to no other, as the diligent reader may easily perceive. But howsoever the words of Cyprian sound, certain it is, that neither that in the. 20. of Numeri, nor this in the. 1. of the Acts, can prove any election made by the people. Chap. 4. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Lin. 1. Not certain form of electing ministers commanded in the scriptures. But I say that in the whole scripture, there is no commandment that it should so be, nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or general rule, but that it may be altered as time and occasion serveth. For in such matters not commanded or prohibited in scripture, touching ceremonies, discipline, and government, the Church hath authority from time to time, to appoint that which is most convenient, for the present state: as I have before declared. T. C. Page. 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you say these examples are no general rules. (*) It will fall out that you have neither examples of all Apostles, nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times. Examples of all the Apostles, in all Churches, and in all purer times, uncontrolled, and unretracted, either by any the rimitive and purer Churches, or by any rule of the scripture, I think aught to stand. If it were a private example of one, or in one place alone, or if it were countermanded by any other rule of the scripture, than the example were not always safe to follow. But what if there be commandment also▪ In the (a) You are driu to a straight, when you are glad to search a mandatum out of the ceremonial law. eight of the book of numbers the Lord commandeth that the Levites, which preached the word of God to the people in their several congregations, should be brought before the Lord and before the people, & the people should lay their hands upon the levites heads: which what other thing is it than to declare their liking of them, and by that ceremony to consecrated them and set them apart for that use of their ministery? And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands, I grant you: but so he speaketh, because the approbation was by all, and some in the name of the rest declared that, by their laying on of hands. But me thinketh I here your old answer that this pertaineth not unto us, being a thing done under the law: But take heed what you say, for if you will admit neither the general examples of the new testament, nor the commandments and examples of the old, take heed that you do not or ever you be ware, spoil us of the chief and principal pillars and buttresses of our religion, and bring us (b) Not so, but you seem to bring us to plai udaisme. to plain Catabaptistrie, which you say you are so afraid of. For to prove the baptism of children and young infants, what stronger hold have we than that God commanded in the old Testament, that they should be circumcised, and examples thereof in the new Testament, for that the Apostles baptized whole families, where, by all likelihood there were children. Now we say that there is this commandment in the old Testament, of the ministers, and there are examples in the new Testament general and throughout, why should it not then be necessary in this as well as in the other? Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to prove 〈◊〉 general commandment. 6. of the Acts, the Apostles command that the Church should seek them out Deacons, whom they might appoint over the poor. Touching certain Ceremonies, I have showed that they are necessary, as namely the sacraments. And as for discipline and government, I have showed partly, and more hereafter will be showed, that they are of the substance of the Gospel, if to have excommunication be to have discipline, or if to have pastors, or Bishops and Doctors and Deacons be government of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. You do still petere principium, and build upon a false ground: for I deny that you have examples either of all, or of any of the Apostles: or that this kind of election hath been in all Churches & in all purer times. etc. and albeit, for the proof of this, sufficient is said before, yet will I add something now also. All the places of scriptures that you have The diversity of elections in the Apostles time. hither to alleged, are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. which places neither agree in people that were to be choose, nor in the manner and form of choosing. For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle, the. 6. of Deacons, the. 14. of Bishops, and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were joined with Paul for the collecting and distributing of Alms. All men do grant that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediately from God, and therefore doth differ from all other elections of Pastors, Deacons. etc. But to let this pass: I pray you consider the divers manner and form used in all these places. In the first of the Acts, Peter made an exhortation to the disciples, he appointed out of what company the new Apostle should be taken: the Apostles presented two, after prayers made, lots were given forth, and the Apostle was choose by lot, and not by voice, but immediately taken and reputed with the eleven Apostles. In the. 6. of the Acts, the twelve Apostles willed the whole multitude to look out seven men of honest report. etc. to be Deacons, and the whole multitude did choose seven and presented them to the Apostles: and the Apostles prayed & laid their hands on them. In the. 14. of the Acts Paul and Barnabas ordained ministers in every Church, with praying and fasting. In the second Corinth. eight. At Paul's request the Church's appoint certain to be collectors for the poor saints with him: which of all these examples would you follow? will you name them to the people, or shall the people, name them too you? Will you have two put up together, and one of them choose by lot? Or will you have the whole people for to choose, and you to lay on hands: or will you only have the Bishops to choose? to be short, will you pray only at the election, or will you both pray and fast? or have you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples, and so to make one rule, where unto all Churches at all times must of necessity be bond? I told you before, that M. Caluine says plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts, no certain rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers: and M. Beza li. confess. ca 5. is as plain, that there can be no certain rule gathered out of the Beza. 6. of the Acts, or out of that in the first: his words be these. In the election of Mathias lots were cast, but for a peculiar cause, for it behoved the Apostles to be choose immediately of God: In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set down what the Church did observe: But in another place, we may gather by Paul, that they of Asia used the holding up of hands, which manner was usual with the most of the Grecians: wherefore there is no cause why any man should overcuriously prescribe here any certain rule. etc. Now to rehearse what variety hath been used in the Churches touching this election, variety used in the elections in the pr tive Churches. Caluine. were peerless, it shall be sufficient only to set down that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti. cap. 8. Sect. 60. etc. where first he declareth that the rule of S. Paul touching the qualities of a minister is to be observed, and that he is to be examined according to the same. Then doth he show, how that there hath not always one order been observed touching the electors and appointers: for sometimes none was choose without the consent of the whole people, and other sometimes the people committed the choice to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors, except it were in the election of the Bishop. And sometimes only the ministers did first choose, and then offer those whom they had choose to the magistrate, or to the Senate, or to the chief rulers, who ratified the election if they liked it, if not, then did they choose out other. etc. This variety of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place. It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth. 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles, Can. Apost. 36 that Bishops were not then choose by the consent of the people, for that canon speaketh of such Bishops, as being appointed to some Church, were not received by the people, and yet remained Bishops still. To the like effect is the. 18. can. Con. Ancyra. Con: Ancyr. can. 18. Con. Antioch. can. 17. 18. Con: Laodic. can. 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commandment in the Ceremonial law, for the election of the ministers of the Gospel. The place Numbers. 8. proveth not his purpose. and the. 17. and. 18. of the Council of Antioch. In the. 12. Canon of the Council of Laodicea it is decreed that the Metropolitan with other Bishops adjoining should have the election of Bishops, and of such as are to be preferred to a cure. And the. 13. Can. of the same council doth forbidden that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people. So that you see your manner of electing by the people not to have been in all Churches in all purer times. It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commandment to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers, when you are constrained to fetch one out of the book of Numbers, and that nothing at all pertaining to your purpose. For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election? First, the people there did not elect the levites: Secondly, they laid their hands upon them: which I am sure you will not have the people to do in the ordaining of Bishops, for you say that only elders and ministers used to lay on their hands. So that this place of the Book of Numbers doth command that which you will not admit, and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do allege it. But tell me in good earnest, will you bind us to the observation of the Ceremonial law also, as you have done before to the judicial? For what else is there in that whole chapter, but laws touching ceremonies, and in that place by you alleged especially? for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Levites and of their offering: he speaketh not of any election. For God himself had choose the Levites before, for the first born of the children of Israel. cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how undiscréetely you allege the scriptures, jest you should seem to be void of scripture. You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremony consecrated them. Would you have the people to consecrated ministers by laying on of hands? do you not care what absurdities, and contrarieties you speak? you make a distinction in that which followeth betwixt ordaining & electing, and you say that election pertaineth to the people, & ordaining to the Bishop. Pag. 40. lin. ult. etc. Pag. 31. sect. 4. And in another place: that the imposition of hands was not by the Church and people, but by the Elders and Ministers. But if this be a commandment for us now to observe, then must you recant that saying. I do admit this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremonial law, but I do not The dealings of T. C. tend to judaisme. admit it as a perpetual commandment, because I know the Ceremonial law is abrogated, except you will have all those Ceremonies which were used in that place, and are contained in the same commandment, as of sprinkling them with water, of shaving their bodies, of washing their clotheses, of laying their hands on the heads of bullocks. etc. practised in ordering ministers of the Gospel. Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie, but yours smelleth of judaisme, for you bound us before to the judicial law, and now you will bind us to the Ceremonial also: what remaineth but to say that Christ is not yet come. Circumcision is a figure of baptism, but the levitical priesthood is no figure of the ministery of the Gospel, therefore we may well prove the baptizing of Infants by circumcision, but we can not prove the ordering of ministers of the Gospel by the ceremonies used about the Levites. Those examples of the Apostles do well prove the baptizing of children, because Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded upon these general places of the Scriptures, Ego sum Deus tuus. etc. I am thy God, and the God of thy seed. etc. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes, Baptizing all nations. The contention is not whether discipline. etc. be necessary, but whether one kind be necessary. Of discipline also and government, I have something spoken before, and mind to speak hereafter when further occasion is offered: in this place it is answer sufficient to say, that the contention is not whether discipline or government be necessary in the Church, or not, but whether this or that kind of discipline and government be necessary, and whether there be one certain kind and form of discipline and government to be used in the Church at all times, and in all places. As for Pastors, Bishops, Doctors, Deacons. etc. they be necessary ministers in the Church, but it doth not therefore follow, that there must be always one kind and form of government. Chap. 4. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Sect. 1 And I add, that howsoever in the Apostles time, that kind of electing and calling ministers was convenient and profitable, now in this state of the Church, it were most pernicious and hurtful. T. C. Pag. 32. Sect. 6. 7. You say that howsoever in the Apostles tyme. this use was of having the consent of the church in the choice of their Pastor or Bishop, now in this state it were most pernicious and hurtful. Wherein, see how (a) This is an five advised collestion. unadvisedly you condemn the churches of Geneva, of all France, of certain of the German churches, which keep this order. But you allege your reasons, therefore those are to be considered, because they come so rare. For your manner is, that if you can have but one writer new or old, of your side, or which seemeth to be of your side, you run away with the matter, as though you had scripture, reason, Doctors, and all. I will therefore then take a view of your reasons, when as I shall have briefly set down those reasons, whereby the perpetual equity, reasonableness, & conveniency of this order, that the church should have a stroke in her ministers election, may appear. Io. Whitgifte. I condemn no Churches that have appointed any order for the electing of their Pastors, which they think to be agreeable to their state, and most profitable for them: for therefore I say, that no certain manner or form of electing ministers is prescribed in the Scripture, because every Church may do therein as it shall seem to be most expedient for the same. That may be profitable for the Churches of Geneva and France. etc. which would be most hurtful to this Church of England. And therefore I say that howsoever this popular kinds of electing was convenient or profitable in the Apostles time, yet in this state of the Church of England, it would be pernicious and hurtful. You say my manner is, that if I can have but one writer. etc. Truly I do not stand so much in my own conceit, neither am I so well persuaded of my own wit and understanding, but that I greatly esteem the opinions of learned men: and I think myself to have reason sufficient, when I have good and learned authority, which is grounded both upon Scripture and reason. And to put you out of doubt, if you be offended because I so do, you must be offended still: For I had rather allege the authority of learned men, which is grounded both upon the Scriptures and reason, than to stick to mine own fancy, both without authority and reason, as those commonly do, which are desirous of innovations, and have their heads filled with new devices. But you will take a view of my reasons. etc. and I will first examine your reasons severally, and then answer for my own. An examination of the reasons which T. C. useth to prove the perpetual equity, etc. of elections by the people. Chap. 5. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 32. Sect. 8. It is said amongst the Lawyers, and in deed reason which is the law of all nations confirmeth it, Quod omnium interest, ab. omnibus approbari debet. That which standeth all men upon, should be approved of all men. Which law hath this sense, that if it may be, it were good that those things, which shall bind all men, and which require the obedience of all should be concluded as far as may be, by the consent of all, or at lest by the consent of as many as may be got. And therefore it draweth much the obedience of the subjects of this realm; that the statutes whereby the realm is governed; pass by the consent of the most part of it, whilst they be made by them, whom the rest put in trust, and choose for that purpose, being as it were all their acts. Io. Whitgifte. You use for your purpose a rule of the law, which you do not understand, nor The first reason examined. rightly interpret: for where as this word Debet, importeth a necessity, you expound it as a word of courtesy, saying, if it may be, and it were good to be concluded: when as the law saith, Debet approbari, it aught to be allowed. And reason will the same, that where many men have interest in any thing, or have any thing in common, whereof every of them hath a private interest, right, or property, there every man's consent should be had: as if a house, or any other thing be common among half a dozen men by purchase, descent, or gift, and five of them would burden that thing with any charge, or do any act to prejudice the sixte man, it shall not bind him without his consent: for there this rule is true. Further more a thing is said omnes tangere, to pertain to all, which is common either Pluribus ut universis, or else Pluribus ut singulis. In the first kind, are those things that pertain to bodies politic, as the body of a whole common wealth, City, Borough, Town, College, Church. etc. Wherein (as the Lawyers say) this rule hath no force. The reason of the law is, because it being almost an impossible thing, for all men in such a body to agree in one, and there being amongst men for the most part (as it were) a natural inclination to descent, and disagree one from an other, there should never any law or order be made, if every singular man's consent should of necessity be had: It is therefore sufficient in such places and matters, if the laws, statutes, and customs of the place be observed. Wherefore the rule hath only place in the second: that is, in things that are This law can not take hold in the election of ministers. common Pluribus ut singulis, to many severally, that is, wherein every man hath a propriety and particular right: as it is properly in lands, possessions. etc. in the which the Minister can not be comprehended: for it were a great absurdity, that in the election of the minister every singular man's consent should of necessity be required: for than if any one froward man in the whole parish were disposed to withstand the election, it could never be ended: and this must necessarily come to pass, if you will build upon this law. And yet in such cases this law admitteth this general exception, if there be especial The law admitteth exceptions. reason and cause why that thing which concerneth many, should be done by some other way, rather than by the consent of them, which have interest. And these are taken for good reasons in this case: first, if it be rather behoveful for the common wealth, and Church of God to do that which concerneth a number, some other way, rather than by the consent of every particular man. Secondly, if it be for the more quiet estate of the common wealth, not to have their consent. Thirdly, if it be better for the parties themselves, to have it otherwise provided: Last of all, if it be against the laws of God, or of the customs and laws of any Country. If I were a Lawyer, I could tell you, that this law admitteth many exceptions. What is more expedient for all men, than to have a good Prince, good Councillors, good judges. etc. and yet I think it were most pernicious to have those offices committed to the election of the people. But what need I strive with you in this matter? For if those things that be concluded by Parliament, be by the consent of the most part of the Realm, because the people's consent is there in their knights of their shires, and other burgesses (as in deed it is, which you also confess) then have you no more to say in this matter: for the book of ordering Ministers and Deacons. etc. is allowed and granted by Parliament, and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Church of England are choose by the consent of the people, nay (which is more) of the whole Realm, because they are ordained and choose according to that order and rule, which the whole realm in Parliament hath made and bound themselves unto. But (by the way) if this ground of law be good in that sense that you allege it, and be transferred to the civil state, it will be found very dangerous, and too-too much savouring of popularity: as in deed the whole course of your doctrine is. Chapter. 5. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1 So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate, Mayre, or Bailiff, or Constable of every town, which things if they have grounds in civil affairs, they have much better in Ecclesiastical. For it is much more unreasonable, that there should be thrust upon me, a governor, of whom the everlasting salvation or damnation both of my body and soul doth depend, than him of whom my wealth and commodity of this life doth hang. Unless those upon whom he were thrust, were fools, or mad men, or children, without all discretion of ordering themselves, which as I will show, can not agreed with those, that are the Church of God, and are to have a Pastor. For they of the Church of God, although they be called sheep in respect of their simplicity and harmlessness, yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpents, in the wisdom, especially which is to salvation: and how (a) No man keth vi e a ount of the people of God: but you partly of 〈◊〉, partly of popular affection, would have it seem so, thereby to 〈◊〉 hatred against us. vile account soever you will make of them, they are the people of God, and therefore spiritual, and forthwith those of whom saint 1. Cor. 2. Paul saith, the spiritual man discerneth all things. Io. Whitgifte. The disorder of such popular elections hath been such, the contentions moved Elections by the multitude are for the most part tumultuous. in them so great, the ambition of the people standing in election so notorious, the partial affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolks, friends, or landlords. etc. so untolerable, to be short, the lack of judgement & discretion in many of them so apparent, that that manner of electing upon great considerations hath been altered in divers places, & desired to be altered in others also, by all those that are wise & discrete, & that wish for quietness & good government. Neither is it true, that the election of those officers which you name, is every where in the people. In the best ordered Cities and towns it is otherwise: and experience doth teach, that those offices which are in the Princes bestowing, and some other to whom she committeth the same, are the best bestowed, and upon the most worthiest people, as bishoprics, the offices of judges, justices. etc. In ecclesiastical affairs, it is much meeter, that such as have knowledge, zeal, and care for the people, should place over them a meet and fit Pastor, than that the choice of him should be committed to the multitude, which is not only for the most part ignorant, but careless in such matters, yea and oftentimes evil disposed, and commonly led by affection, as friendship, hatred, fear. etc. I know that Christian men are not called sheep because they be void of reason: Christian men eepe. For as Chrysostom saith, Oues sunt, sed rationales, They are sheep, but such as are endued with reason. And god doth at one time or other (if they be his) open his truth unto them, and endueth them with the spirit of discerning betwixt true and false doctrine, in those things that do pertain to their salvation. But because God doth in his good time open his truth unto them, are they therefore always void of affection and error? or because some have this spirit of discretion, is it therefore common to all, or to the most part? In deed if you speak of the invisible Church, which is only of the elect, then is it something that you say: but if you speak of the visible Church, which is a mixture of good and evil, and wherein the evil are the greater number, then hath your saying no probability in it. And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place. 1. Cor. 2. that he can not err in matters of religion, Scripture unaptly alleged by T. C. as you may, that Parishes can not be deceived in electing their pastors? for he doth allege this text for himself to the same purpose: but the meaning of the Apostle is this: that he only which is ruled and governed by the spirit of God, hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God, and is able to discern the truth from falsehood. You can no more prove therefore, by this sentence, that the Parishes can not err in choosing their Pastors, than the Pope may do that himself, general Counsels, and the Church can not err: and surely the more I consider the matter, the more I marvel what your meaning is in alleging this texts. Chapter. 5. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2. Moreover, reason and experience teacheth, that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church under the hand of the Pastor or Bishop, that the Church love him and reverence him. For the contempt and hatred of the minister for the most part, standeth not in his own person, but reacheth even unto the doctrine which he teacheth. But the Minister that the Church desireth, it commonly best loveth and moste reverenceth, and of the other side, hateth and contemneth him, that is thrust upon them, therefore it maketh much to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospel, that the minister come in, by their consent. Likewise, the people must by S. Paul his 1. Tim. 4. rule, follow the good example of the Minister: but men will not likely follow their examples, whom they love not, nor love them, which are thrust upon them against their wills. Therefore it standeth with the good conversation and godly following of the steps of the minister, that he be with the consent of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. This reason is builded upon a false ground: for it is certain that many pastors The second reason examined. are dearly beloved of their flocks, which neither were elected by them, desired of them, nor known unto them before. And I think verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse love or reverence their pastors in that respect, excepts such only as you and your adherents have inflamed, not only with the spirit of discord, but of disdain, and contempt also towards all laws, orders, and people, that be not in all points framed according to their imaginations. But would you that a Papistical parish (such as there may be divers in England) should choose their Pastor, that they might love him? Surely then would they not choose a Protestant. Or do men always continued in loving of those, whom they have choose? You know that experience teacheth the contrary: so long only do they love him, as he pleaseth them, and serveth their affections, which because he neither can nor aught to do, therefore their affection of love is soon quenched: and they begin to hate and to contemn him, and the rather because they did choose him. For in that respect they think him more bond to please them. Chap. 5. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3 And if it should happen (which may come to pass) that any Church should desire or choose, or consent upon by the most part, some that is unmeet, either for doctrine or manners, than the ministers & Elders of the other Churches round about, should advertise first, and afterward as Where found 〈◊〉 this manner and form in the 〈◊〉. occasion should serve, sharply and severely charge, that they forbear such election, or if it be made, that they confirm it not, by suffering him to exercise any ministery. And if either the Churches round about do fail of this duty, or the Church which is admonished rest not in their admonition, then to bring it to the next Synod, and if it rest not therein, than the Prince or Magistrate, which must see that nothing in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done, aught to drive that Church from that election to an other which is convenient. Now I will examine the reasons which you add to prove, that although in times passed the church choosed their ministers, yet now it must be otherwise. Io. Whitgifte. What scripture have you to prove, that if the Parishes should choose an unmeet T. C. in pretending scripture, bringeth in that which hath no warrant in scripture. minister, than the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hand the matter etc. and if they will not, then to bring it to the next Synod: if that will not serve, then that the Prince or Magistrate must and aught to drive that Church from that election, to an other more convenient? Where have you I say, either commandment, or example of any such order in the whole scripture? will you of your own head and brain take upon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture? And dare you so boldly condemn an order taken by the common consent of so great a Church as this of England is, because it is not in all points correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men may see if they be not blind, what your meaning is. You think peradventure that if this were once brought to pass, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere, according to your desire. The like policy and practice hath been used by others: look Zuinglius in his Ecclesi. But to come to a nearer examination of this your devise: First, you have forgotten T. C. contrary to himself. yourself, for a little before you proved by that which S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat: he that is spiritual discerneth all things. etc. That they were spiritual, Pag. 33. Sect. . and therefore could not be without discretion of ordering themselves in choosing their pastor: and now you say, if any church should by the most part choose some unmeet man. etc. Whereby you confessr that they may be deceived, contrary to your former words. Secondly, your order is most unperfitte, & full of intolerable inconveniences: for The order which. T. C. prescribeth un perfect, & full of inconveniences. who shall complain of this election to other Churches? And when complaint is made, who shall call them together? when they be called together, what order shall be taken for the avoiding of confusion & tumult? or who shall bear their charges? or in what place shall they meet, or how often? Likewise If the churches round about do fail in this duty. etc. who shall bring it to the next Synod? or who shall summon the Synod? or in what place shall it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, until the matter be determined? or who shall complain to the Prince and magistrate? or what if the Prince will not drive them to a new election, but allow of the old? Do you not see of what disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconveniences this your disordered order would be the cause? For how many meetings of Churches should we have? how many Synods? what parts taking? what running up and down? what loss of time? what cause of offence? what quarrels? yea what not? But amongst all other things you have here appointed to the Prince or magistrate The Prince's authority diminished, and her troubles increased. a good office, that he must stand and behold all this, and in the end only drive the parish to a new election, which also you say that he must do. Throughout your whole book you take from the civil Magistrate his whole authority in ecclesiastical matters, & give unto him no more, (as I have before declared) than the very Papists do, that is potestatem facti, and not potestatem juris. For he must only at your commandment execute such laws and orders as you and your Seniors have devised. Again, considering the great number of Parishes in this realm, the variety of men's minds, the diversity of opinions in Religion, and the general inclination in the hearts of men to descent and disagree among themselves, it can not be, but that in short space the Prince should be overpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she must be constrained to let pass the care of the government of the common wealth, and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you have no better reasons for your popular elections than these, I think it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wise man, to subscribe unto it. But now to the defence of my own reasons. The diversity betwixt the Apostles times and ours, requireth a divers kind of government, and of ordaining Ministers. Chapter. 6. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Sect. 2. first, because in the Apostles time, the Church was under the cross, and therefore very few in comparison was there, that embraced the Gospel, and commonly they kept together, or at the lest met oftentimes, so that one of them was thoroughly known to another, and they themselves could best judge who among them was the fittest to teach and instruct, having always divers fit for that function. Now the Church is in prosperity, and therefore the number that professeth, great, and dispersed into divers places, and in most parishes not one fit for the ministery among them, or known unto them: so that they should call they know not whom T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 4. You say it was in the Apostles times under the cross, and therefore few, and so might easily know one an other, who were fit for the ministery. But you forget yourself marvelously. For in the Apostles times, the Church (I mean visible and sensible, for else how could it be persecuted) was (1) It is not so much to have the Gospel sown in many places, as to have it generally received in a few. sown not only throughout all Asia (which is the greatest part of the world) but through a great part of Africa, and no small portion of Europe, and now it is shut in a small corner of Europe, being altogether banished out of Asia & Africa: And therefore there are not the (2) There be many mother Christians in profession now than were at that time. For though the Gospel was then dispersed in many places, yet was it professed but of few people tithe now, of thosethat professed the Gospel then, and what a conclusion is this, the Church were few in number, because they were under the cross. For to let pass both other scriptures, and stories ecclesiastical, have you forgotten that which is said in the first of Exodus, that the more the children of Israel were pressed and persecuted, the more they multiplied? Then you say they kept together, and met often, and so knowing one another, were best able to judge one of another. But herein you speak as one that hath small experience of persecuted Churches, for in the time of persecution, the Christians that were in one great city, were fain to gather themselves out of all the corners, and from all the ends of the city, to one place, being not able to divide themselves into many parishes, both for other considerations, and because they were not able to maintain many ministers, and Elders and Deacons, so that we read that the Church which was at Antioch, written unto the Church at jerusalem, and that of jerusalem unto them of Antioch, and S. Paul to the Church at Rome, at Ephesus, and at Philippos. etc. Which speeches do declare, that by all likelihood, in one great city, they had but (3) This proveth that there were but few Christians in those cities, in respect of the rest, that were not Christians. one congregation, and therefore that must needs be scattered here and there, and so could not have the commodity either of often meeting, or of knowing one an other, so well, as where such a city is divided into many Churches. Those that know the estate of France in the time of persecution, do well understand, that every Church almost was gathered of towns, whereof some were six miles, some seven, some more, from the place of meeting, and keeping their congregations. And therefore could not meet so often, nor know one an other so well, as we by the grace of God may do, which meet oftener, and in less number than they do. Io. Whitgifte. I remember myself very well, and I also remember that no learned writer old The multitude of Christians is now greater. or new denieth this to be true that I have said: you only say that in the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ was sown not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest part of the world but a great part of Africa and no small portion of Europe, you prove it not, either by Scripture, story, or any good writer. The Gospel I grant was preached in all these parts of the world, yet was it not generally received in any one part of the world, not not in any city, not at jerusalem, where all the Apostles were, not in any the lest town. There were Christians at jerusalem, at Antioch, at Ephesus, at Rome. etc. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the jews, and the Gentiles that were there, and not Christians. In the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in comparison, to the times that followed, when the whole city was christened and professed Christ, and had Christian Magistrates. I speak not of the dispersing of the Gospel into divers places, which I know was in the Apostles time, for that commandment had they of Christ, that they should go into the whole world. etc. but I speak of the multitude of Christians Mar. 16 gathered together in one place. In the Apostles time (as I said before) no one country or kingdom, no one city, no one town, did wholly profess Christ, or for the most part: now whole kingdoms, whole countries, whole nations, profess him. When Mathias was choose, the whole Church, was gathered together in one place. And so was it when the Deacons were choose. Which thing now is unpossible, because of the multitude: so that though the election might be by the whole Church in the Apostles time, when it was together in one place, yet can it not be so now, seeing it is unpossible for any one kingdom to contain it. It might well be that the people in every city might meet in one place without confusion or tumult, in the Apostles time, when as scarce the. xx. part of the city were Christians: but it cannot be so now, when whole cities profess Christ. Wherefore I speak of the multitude of Comparison made in respect of the multitude in one place, no dispersed. Christians gathered together in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christians which at this day be in Europe. Now few Christians was there at jerusalem not long before it was destroyed, being above. 40. years after Christ? Doth not Eusebius Lib. 3. cap. 5. testify that they all were received into a little town called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much time and labour in preaching there: but the number of such as did not profess Christ was infinite in that city at that time, if we believe histories, and especially josephus de bello juda. Lib. 7. cap. 17. wherefore your opinion of the multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dream. It is a very good reason to say, that because the Church was then under Persecution doth both diminish & increase the number of professors. the Cross, therefore few in comparison embraced the Gospel (for sodde I say) because notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase rather than diminish in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hypocrites, and dissemblers, who would seem to profess the Gospel, and whom also we must count professors, because we see not their hearts. This is manifest by this example. In the time of King Edward when the Gospel was in prosperity, how many was there in London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the time of persecution came under queens Marie, what become of that number? how few was there then in comparison? do you not think that if God should sand a trial there would be found in that city many false brethren? Moreover in the time of prosperity true Christians may without danger show themselves, and remain in their cities, though the number be never so great: but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places. We may learn in the. 8. of the Acts, that the Church wholly remained at jerusalem, until that persecution wherein Paul was a doer, and that then they were dispersed: shall we not then say that at jerusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the mean time was the number of Christians at jerusalem marvelously diminished. Thus than you may understand if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then in persecution, and therefore very few incomparison, that embraced the Gospel, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect of the same Church particularly in every ceuntrey or city. And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae, The blood of Martyrs is the seed of the Church, but that seed must have time to grow in: and I speak of the external professors of the Gospel. That which you writ to overthrow my words touching the keeping together and often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I say they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirm the same, whereupon I also conclude, that therefore one of them must of necessity be well known to another. And although our assemblies in time of prosperity be peradventure as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution, is a cause of better knowing one another. there's is, or rather more frequent, yet have we not such occasion to confer one with another, or to consider one another, or to know one another as they have, for they then admit none into their society at their meetings, but such as are known to be brethren, and of whose Religion and zeal they have good trial. And I think that those which have been exercised either in France, or elsewhere, in any such time of persecution, know this to be true, that they know none so thoroughly, or are acquainted with none so entirely, as with such who have been with them in the time of persecution. You would fayne if you could, confute a known truth, and a manifest thing: for who would deny, but that such as keep together in the time of persecution, must of necessity be known among themselves, and best judge who is fittest among them, for any function? Chap. 6. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Sect. 3 Secondly in the Apostles time, all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrites. etc. were virtuous and godly, and such as did sincerely profess the word, and therefore the election of their pastor might safely be committed to them: now the Church is full of Hypocrites, dissemblers, drunkards, whoremongers. etc. so that if any election were committed to them, they would be sure to take one like to themselves. T. C. Page, 34. Sect. I To your second difference I answer, that in deed there be Hypocrites in our Churches now, and so were there then, but more now than then: I grant you that also, but there is no great danger in them, as touching the election of the minister or Bishop, for that in such open and public actions that come into the eyes of all men, there is no good man will do so sincerely, so holily, as they will do, although it be feignedly. The hurt that they do, is in closer and secreter matters. But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers: besides that you utter or ever you be ware, how evil success the preaching of the Gospel hath had here (for want of discipline and good Ecclesiastical governmenie) you bewray a great ignorance. For although (a) A dangerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes. there be Hypocrites, which bear the face of godly men in the church, whose wickedness is only known to God, and therefore can not be discovered by men, yet in (*) the churches of Christ, there be no drunkards nor whoremongers, at lest which are known. For either upon Admonition of the Church they repent, and so are neither drunkards nor whoremongers, or else they are cut off by excommunication (if they continued stubborn in their sins) and so are none of the Church, and therefore have nothing to do in the election of the Minister of the Church. And me thinketh you should not have been ignorant of this, that although there be tars in the flower of the Church, which are like the wheat, and therefore being ground, easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loaf, yet there are no acorns which are bread for swine. And although there be goat s amongst the flock of the Church, because they have some likelihood with the sheep, feeding as Mat. 25. they do, giving milk as they do, yet in the Church of Christ there are no swine, nor hogs, it pertaineth to God only to sever the tars from the wheat, and the goats from the sheep: but the Churches can discern between wheat and acorns, between swine and sheep. Io. Whitgifte. There be not only Hypocrites (which deal sincerely in nothing, not not in public actions) but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life, who would no doubt be as corrupt in elections (if they might have to do therein) as they are in other matters. In saying that the Church is now full of Hypocrites, drunkards, whoremongers. Drunkards & whoremongers in the visible church. etc. I derogate no more from the good success that the preaching of the Gospel hath had, than the like, or greater faults did, from the same in the Church of Corinthe, and Galatia. The Church is a net that gathereth together of all kind of fish Mat. 13. it is a field wherein the devil soweth tars as fast as the husbandman good Mat. 13. Mat. 22. Mat. 7. corn: and for one that profitably heareth the word of God, three do the contrary, as the parable of the sower declareth. There be many called but few choose: And the gate is wide that leadeth to perdition: therefore it is no discredit to the Gospel, or to the preaching thereof, nor yet to the good government of the Church, to have many wicked and ungodly people, which cannot possible be rooted out, until the time of Harnessed: but this hath been always an anabaptistical cavil against the true Church of Christ, and lawful government thereof, as Bullinger declareth Lib. . adversus Anabap. Bullinger. And undoubtedly if this were a good argument to prove that the Gospel is not preached sincerely, than isaiah, jeremy, and other of the Prophets, which had preached among the people many years, and smally prevailed with them, either concerning doctrine or manners, preached not sincerely. Whereas you say that in the Church of Christ there be no drunkards or whoremongers, at the least which are known. etc. either do you greatly overshoot yourself, and forget the great crimes that were known to be in the Church of Corinthe: or else would you secretly bring in the error of the Anabaptistes, which say, that, not to be the true Church of Christ in the which there appeareth manifest crimes: for the declaration of the A branch of Anabaptisme. which error and confutation also, I refer you to the third book of Bul. adversus Anabap and the. 2. and. 3. chapter: where you may likewise learn what profit hath cenie to this and the like Churches, where the Gospel is professed by the preaching of the word, though many wicked still remain in the same. I grant you that these vices when they be known aught to be punished: But if, either because those that be in authority do not their duty therein, or else those vices continued notwithstanding, therefore you will conclude that this is not the Church of Christ, I tell you plainly, that you have already entered into one branch of Anabaptisme. It cannot be denied but that the evil are continually mirt with the good in this world, even in the most purest Church: and that then they abound especially, when the Gospel is in prosperity: so that this is a good cause why the election of ministers may not safely be committed to the common people. Chap. 6. the third Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect 4. Thirdly, in the Apostles time, all that professed Christ had knowledge, The people now ignorant, and not able to judge. and wereable to judge who were meet to be their pastor. Now the most be ignorant and without judgement in such matters. T. C▪ Pag. 34. Sect. 2. If they had knowledge then, it was because they were taught, and that they are ignorant You make a digression, and answer not the reason. now, it is because they have no good ministers to teach them, and if the Churches should choose their ministers, I am sure they could not choose worse, than for the most part, they have now, being thrust upon them. Io. Whitgifte. They were then diligently taught, and they gave themselves wholly to learn, because it was a time of persecution, in the which men be commonly best disposed, and sequestered (as it were) from all worldly cares, looking continually to fall into the hands of the persecutors: now, though they be in diverse places well taught, yet because they have not such a sense, and feeling of the word in the time of prosperity, as they have under the cross (when the Church of Christ is purest) the election of their Ministers can not be so safely committed unto them now, as it might be then. But why have you not answered my reason? for as yet that is untouched. Chap. 6. the fourth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 45. Sect. 1 Fourthly, in the Apostles time there was in the Church no Idolaters, The church now full of Papists and Atheists. etc. no superstitious people, no Papists: now the Church is full of Papists, Atheists, and such like, who seethe not therefore what strange ministers we should have, if the election of them, were committed to their several parishes? T. C. Pag. 34. Sect. 3 I see that when a man is out of his way, the further he goeth the worse. Before you placed in the church whoremongers and drunkards, as filthy swine in the lords courts, now you bring in Papists, Idolaters, and Atheists which are not only filthy, but also poisoned and venomed beasts. I am not ignorant of that distinction, which saith that there be in the Church, which are not of the Church, and those are Hypocrites as is before said: but I would gladly learn of you, what Scripture there is to prove, that Idolaters and Papists and Atheists are in the Church. when saint Paul (a) The place is not rightly un . calleth all such without the church and with whom the Church hath nothing to do, nor they with the church: you might as well have placed in the church, Wolves, Tigers, Lions, and Bears, that is tyrants and persecutors. For those you speak of, and (in the judgement of men and of the church) as well shut out of it as they, in the eye of the Lord, they may be of the church, and so may and are sometimes the persecutors themselves: so that the election of the church, is not, nor ought not to be hindered by those that have nothing to do with it. But now I hear you ask me, what then shall become of the Papists and Atheists, if you will not have them be of the church? I answer that they may (b) This is true in the common wealth of the Turk , but not in this common wealth. be of, and in the common wealth, which neither may, nor can be of, nor in the church: And therefore the church having nothing to do with such, the Magistrate (c) Where find you this (aught▪) ought to see, that they join to hear the Sermons in the place where they are made, whether it be in those parishes where there is a church, and so preaching, or where else he shall think best, and 'cause them to be examined, how they profit, and if they profit not, to punish them, and as their contempt groweth, so to increase the punishment, until such times as they declare manifest tokens of un epentantnesse, and then as rotten members, that do not only no good, nor service in the body, but also corrupt and infect others, cut them off. And if they do profit in hearing, then to be adjoined unto that church, which is next the place of their dwelling. Io. Whitgifte. How Papist etc. be in the Church. You must of necessity admit this distinction (some be of the Church, and some be only in the Church) else can you not make any visible Church, for we only know, who be in the Church: but who be of the Church is known to him alone, who knoweth those that be his. If they communicate with us in hearing the word, and receiving the Sacraments, though otherwise they be drunkards, superstitious, or infected with errors in doctrine. etc. yet must we count them in the Church, until they be cut of from it by excommunication. Wherefore whoremongers, Papists, Idolatrous and superstitious people, though they be known to be such (if they do communicate with us in the word and sacraments) are to be counted in the Church, until they be orderly secluded from the same. And yet there may be Papists, Atheists, and such like, though they be not commonly known to be such. And you know well enough, that they which in deed are Papists in opinion, yet if they be content to conform themselves to the outward orders of the Church, would stand in their own defence against him that should accuse them. They 〈◊〉 are in the Church, and not of the Church, are not hypocrite only. T. C. eveth & place against himself. Neither is it true that only hypocrites are such as be in the Church, and are not of the Church. That chapter which you quote in your margin, and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrary. For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church, until he was excommunicated. And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers, Idolaters. etc▪ saith: Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator. etc. If any which is called . Cor. 5. a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or an Idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such one eat not. By the name of brethren were those only then called, which did profess themselves to be Christians, and were so accounted to be. And master Caluine speaking against the like error of the Anabaptistes, after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Church, addeth and saith: Nonnunquàm etiam admixti Calvin advers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae, & flagitiosae, aut qui sibi cavebunt, ne reprehendantur ab hominibus, sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore, nulla revercntia tangi: Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God, men of dissolute and wicked life, or such as will be sure to keep themselves out of danger of men's reprehension, when as notwithstanding they show themselves not to be touched with any fear or reverence of God. If you mean that place. 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paul saith: Si quis cum frater appelletur. etc. If any man which is called a brother. etc. and think that thereby they are secluded from the external society of the Church, you take the words of S. Paul amiss, as the Anabaptistes did: to whom (objecting that place) M. Caluine answered in his book written against them, in this manner: Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae, id ad privatam consuetudinem pertinet, non ad publicam communionem. whereas Paul forbiddeth that we should eat with them which are of a dissolute life and behaviour, that pertaineth only to private familiarity, and not to the public communion. Now if we aught to receive the Communion with them, we aught also to account them in the external society of the Church. But why do you thus seek to shift of those matters, which you can not answer? Is it not certain that there is in the external society of the Church a far greater number of such, than there was in the Apostles time? which if it be true (as it can not be denied) then do I still affirm that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people. It is well that you take upon you to prescribe unto the Magistrate how to deal with such as be not in the Church: I pray you where find you any such manner of dealing towards them, appointed unto the civil Magistrate? if you have any scripture for it, why do you not allege it? if you have none, what presumption is entered into you, thus imperiously to prescribe laws unto Magistrates? But what if there be plain scripture, that they aught not to be admitted to the hearing of the word, if they be Math. 7. dogs and swine: what say you to this? Give not that which is holy to dogs: neither cast you your pearls to swine. Your distinction betwixt the Church and the common wealth, if it were in Nero's or Dioclesian's time might be admitted without exception, but in my opinion it is not so fit in this time, and especially in this kingdom. May he be a member of a Christian common wealth, that is not in the Church of Christ? if you had said that he may be in the power, and at the will and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate, that is not in the Church of Christ, I could well have liked of it: but it can not yet sink into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth, that is not also a member of the Church of Christ, concerning the outward society. M. Musculus in my judgement speaketh truly against this distinction of yours betwixt the Church and a Christian common wealth in his come. pla. it. de magistra. Let the ethnics and Infidels living not in the unity of truth, but in the confusion Musculus. of errors, have diverse Magistrates and lawmakers, some profane, and some holy, because their life is altogether profane, and their Religion nothing else but superstition. Christian people are in every respect holy, and consecrated unto the name and glory of Christ, not in temples only, and ecclesiastical ceremonies, but in all their life, in every place, at all times, in all things, actions and studies: that according to the Admonition of the Apostle. 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh, or whatsoever he doth, he doth it to the glory of God. etc. wherefore that distinction of ecclesiastical and profane laws, can have no place in it, because there is nothing in it that is profane, seeing that it is a holy people unto the Lord God, and the Magistrate is holy and not profane, his authority holy, his laws holy. etc. be it therefore far from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy, partly profane. etc. But all this from the purpose, and you make to many frivolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you, to do the like. Chap. 6. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly, in the Apostles time there was no Church established, being In the Apostles time no church established, and no christian Magistrate. then no Christian Magistrates, and therefore the state of the Church was popular: now there is Christian Magistrates, and a Church established, and subject to rulers. etc. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1 If there be no churches established, because there were no Christian Magistrates, than the churches of the Apostles were not established. And it is absurd to say that the Ministers now with the help of the Magistrate, can say surer foundations of the church, or build more cunningly or substantially, than the Apostles could, which were the master builders of the church of God, and as for the consummation of the body of the church, and the beauty of it, seeing it consists in jesus Christ, which is the head, that is always joined unseparably in all times of the cross, and not the cross with his body, which is the church. I can not see why the churches under persecution should not be established, having both the foundation and the nethermost parts, as also the top, & highest part of the church, as well as those which have a christian Magistrate. If in deed the Magistrate, whom God have sanctified to be a ours unto his church, were also the head of the same, than the church could not be established without the Magistrate, but we learn that although the godly (a) The Magistrate is head of the common wealth, and but a member of the Church by T. C. his judgement. Magistrate be the head of the common wealth, and a great ornament unto the church, yet he is but a member of the same. The church may be established without the Magistrate, and so that all the world, and all the devils of hell can not shake it, but it can not be in quiet, in peace, and in outward surety, without a godly Magistrate. And therefore the church in that respect and such like praiseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate, by the which it enjoyeth so singular benefits. Thereupon you conclude, that the church was then popular, which is as untrue as the former part. For the church is governed with that kind of government, which the Philosophers that write of the best common wealths, affirm to be the best. For in respect of Christ the head it is a Monarchy, and in respect of the ancients and pastors, that govern in common, and with like authority amongst themselves, it is an aristocraty, or the rule of the best men▪ and in respect that the people are not secluded but have their interest in Church matters, it is a Democraty, or a popular estate. An image whereof appeareth also is the policy of this realm, for as in respect of the Queen her Majesty, it is a Monarchy, so in respect of the most honourable Council, it is an aristocraty, and having regard to the Parliament, which is assembled of all estates, it is a Democraty. But you should have showed how this difference of having a Christian Magistrate, and having none, ought to bring in a diversity, in the choice of the Pastor by their church: it were not hard if one would spend his time so unprofitably, to find out an hundred differences, between a persecuted Church, and that which is in peace, but seeing you can show me no reason, why the Church may not choose her ministers, as well under a godly magistrate, as under a tyrant, I will be bold to show you, how that if it were lawful to break the order of God, it were meeter in the time of persecution, that the election should be in some others, discreet and learned people hands, to be made without the consent of the church, than in that time when there is a godly magistrate, and that it is then most convenient to be choose by the church. Io. Whitgifte. There was then no Church established in any Civil government, because How the Church was not established in the Apostles time. the Magistrates did then persecute, and not defend the Church. The Church in the Apostles time was established in doctrine most perfectly: in discipline, government, and ceremonies, as was convenient for that time, and as the Church may be in time of persecution: but the time was not yet come, whereof the Prophet Esay. 49. said: Kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers: therefore it was not established in any civil government, neither did it so publikcly and openly show itself. The Gospel and the Church was in Queen Mary's time here in England, but it was persecuted, not established, not maintained, not allowed of, nor professed by the public magistrate, and the laws of the land: and therefore of necessity a great difference betwixt the government of it then, and the government of it now: the outward show of it then, and the outward show of it now: the placing of Ministers then, and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench. placing of them now. My meaning and my words be plain, you needed not to have offended again (as almost continually you do) in the ignorance of the Elench whilst you do not reason nor answer ad idem. If you speak of the Church, as it is a communion and society of the faithful and elect only: and of the government thereof, as it is only spiritual, then is it most certain, that the Church is as thoroughly established, as perfectly governed, as gloriously decked and beautified in the time of persecution, as it is or can be under the civil Magistrate: But if you speak of the external society of the Church, which comprehendeth both good and evil, and of the outward government of it, than neither it is, nor can be in such perfect state, nor so thoroughly established, or outwardly adorned in the time of the Cross, as it is and may be under a Christian Prince. The ignorance of this distinction of the Church, and of the government thereof (of the which I have spoken more at large in an Tract. 2. other place) causeth you to fall into so many and so gross errors concerning the same. You say, that if the Civil Magistrate were the head of the Church. etc. Christ The Prince head of the Church. only, and properly is the head of the Church, for it is his body, but yet in the respect of the external society of the same, and the Supreme authority that is given of GOD to the Prince, over his people in all causes, he may be also in that respect called the head of the Church. etc. Chrysostom. in Epistol. ad Philip. Homel. 13. giveth this name to certain women, Chrysost. of whom he sayeth thus: Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat: These women seem to me to have been the head of the Church which was there. And therefore a learned man answering Hosius, who reproved Vergerius for moving that king jaco. Andraea. of Polonia to take vopen him to be the head of that Church, sayeth on this sort: As the Church of Christ in earth is but one body, so hath it but one head (as the Apostle teacheth) which is jesus Christ, who is always present with his Church, and governeth it with his holy spirit etc. but because this Church being visible, is not only ruled by the word, but by the sword of the magistrate also, appointed by God, therefore we say, there are so many heads of Churches, as there are governors of countries. So that you see the magistrate to be the head and chief governor of a particular church in this respect, that it is a visible society, and must have besides the spiritual, an external government also: whereof because the civil Magistrate is the head and chief, therefore it can not be therein established without the civil magistrate. Your spare speeches for the authority of the Magistrate in the government of the Church, I will note in a several place by themselves, and therefore do I the lyghtlyer pass them over in this place: In the mean time this is no good argument to say, that the Magistrate is but a member of the Church, therefore he is not the head and chief governor thereof in earth: for the head though it be the chief, yet is it a part of the body. But you still confound the visible and invisible Church of Christ, the spiritual and external government of the same, which confusion may make you seem to say something, to such as do not diligently consider it, when in very deed you say nothing, to the overthrow of any thing that I have answered. The Church may be established without the magistrate touching true faith, and the spiritual government of it by Christ in the heart and conscience of man, How that church may be established without a Magistrate. but not touching the visible society, and the external government. Upon this confusion also is that grounded which followeth, that the Church in the respect of Christ the head is a Monarchy. etc. For when I said that the state of the Church was popular in the Apostles time, I spoke of the outward form, show, and government of it: which therefore I call popular, because the Church itself, that is the whole multitude, had interest almost in every thing, especially whilst the Church yet remained at jerusalem. I know that all these three kinds of governments may be mixed together after divers sorts, but yet the state of government is named according to that which most ruleth, and beareth the greatest sway: as when matters are most commonly governed by the consent of the more part of the people, the state is called popular: when by divers of the best and wisest, it is called optimorum status, when by one it is called a Monarchy: as in this Realm in the Court of Parliament, although all the states be represented, yet because the judgement, confirmation, and determination rests in the Prince, therefore the state is neither aristocraty, nor Democraty, but a Monarchy: Even so in the Apostles time, (especially, as I have said, whilst the Church remained at Jerusalem) though they might be counted Optimates, yet because moste things in government were done by the consent of the people, therefore the state for that time was popular. You say, that I should have showed how this difference of having a Christian Magistrate, and having none, ought to bring in a diversity in the choice of the Pastor by the churches: I have showed you before the reasons of it: And now I add this, that for as much as the Magistrate is the chief and principal governor of the Churches under Christ, and ought to have a special care and regard to and for the same: It is not meet that any thing touching the government of the Churches, or any public function pertaining thereunto, should be otherwise done, than he shall think convenient and profitable for the present state of it. And therefore well sayeth M. Musculus in his common places, titu. de verbi ministris, Musculus. It is not convenient that those things which are publicly to be done, or which concern the people subject unto them, or to be short, are such as concern Religion, and in that respect pertain unto them (except we will say with the fantastical Anabaptistes, that Christians may not be Magistrates) should be done without the consent and knowledge of the civil Magistrate. And again, wherefore for the condition of time, necessity required, that the Magistrates and Princes by the means of a few men, which were of excellent judgement, and had a care that the Church of Christ should be provided for, might hereunto be induced, that they might appoint faithful and learned Pastors over their subjects. And titulo de magistratibus, speaking of the Civil magistrate he saith, first, that he should place ministers of Churches where they are wanting, whether he chooseth them himself, or confirmeth them which are choose of others by his commandment: For it is not convenient, that any man should take upon him any public offices in the Church, without the authority of the public magistrate. But (you will say) it was otherwise in the primitive Churches, in which the prelate's of the Churches were choose of the ministers and the people: I answer: Such was then the state of the Churches, that the ministers were not otherwise to be choose, because they had not a Christian magistrate: if you call back the manners of those times, first call back the conditions and state of them also. The Prince hath to see that all things be done in the Church orderly, and profitably, and therefore hath he the altering and changing of such elections. Your offering of an hundredth differences between a persecuted Church, and that which is in peace, shall go with that brag which you used Fol. 22. where you offered twenty to one. etc. But to what purpose make you this offer? the more differences there are between them, the more is my cause justified. But you will be bold to show meehow that if it were lawful to break the order of God. etc. and I will also be as bold to answer your reasons severally. Chap. 6. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 1 In the time of persecution a church chooseth an unlearned minister, or one that is wicked in life, howsoever it be, he is unfit, the Churches round about by their ministers or Elders, admonish this church of her fault, and move to correct it, the Church will not by no means be admonished, what can now the other churches do in the time of persecution? if they excommunicate the whole church, it is a hard matter, and yet if they may do that, there is all they can do: the evil is not remedied, which may be easily taken away, where there is a godly Magistrate, and the Church (as is before said) compelled to a better choice. So you see that there are * This is but one and yet none in deed: for the case you put is very unlikely see the time you speak of. inconveniences in the choosing of the Pastor and other the governors of the church, by the church, in the time of persecution, which are not in the time of peace, under a christian Magistrate. Io. Whitgifte. This is your only reason, to prove that in a Church persecuted, it is meeter for the Minister to be choose without the consent of the Church, than in a Church being in prosperity. And surely it is even like to your reasons in other matters: for first, that which you say of the Churches round about (for admonishing, correcting, or excommunicating that Church, that shall choose an unmeet minister) is not to be found in all the Scripture, either in commandment or example, and it is a mere devise of your own head. Secondly, it is most unlike, that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an unmeet or a wicked minister: because those that be persecuted themselves be godly, and well disposed, and careful to have such a one, as they may safely commit themselves unto. For though in the time of persecution there may be some hypocrites, that will for a time join themselves with the Godly, yet the most part do of a conscience that which they do, else would they not endure persecution: wherefore if ever the election of their minister may safely be committed unto them, it may then so be especially. lastly, in the time of persecution, they have no Magistrate, they be all equal, neither is one bound to obey another by any civil law, none hath chief and special care over the rest, as Magistrate to compel: wherefore it can not be otherwise then, but that such offices and functions should be choose by a common consent, neither can there be therein, in that time, the half part of inconuentences that are in the same, in time of prosperity, as any man of any consideration may evidently perceive. Chap. 6. the seventh Division. T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Now I will show you * Where found you that I think so. which think that the consent of the Church in their minister, can not stand with the time of a christian magistrate, that it hath not only stood, but hath been confirmed in their times and by them. In codice justiniani it is thus written, following the doctrine of the holy Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed. etc. we ordain, that as often as it shall fall out, that the ministers place shall be voyd in any city, that voices be given of the inhabiters of that city, that he of thrce (which for their right faith, holiness of life, and other good things are most approved) should be choose to the Bishopric which is the most meet of them. Also Carolus Magnus, which was the first germane (a) He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator: for Conradus his nephwe, & Otho did first translate the empire from France to Germany▪ as some think. Emperor in. 63. distinct. sacrorum canonum says, being not ignorant of the holy Canons, that the holy Church in the name of God should use her honour the freelyer, we assent unto the ecclesiastical order, that the Bishops be choose by election of the Clergy and people, according to the statutes of the canons of that diocese. In the. 63. distinction it appeareth, that Ludovicus Carolus his son decreed, that he should be Bishop of Rome, whom all the people of Rome should consent to choose. Io. Whitgifte. Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choice of their minister, cannot stand with the time of a Christian magistrate? I have said that howsoever in the Apostles time, that kind of electing ministers was convenient, now in this state of the Church it were pernicious and hurtful: which to be most true, the differences of the times before by me alleged, do prove. The civil magistrate may commit this election to such as he liketh best, and may use that manner and kind of choice, which he thinketh to be most convenient for that Church, whereof The proofs of T. C. improve his purpose. he hath the chief care next unto God: And these proofs that you here bring in to justify your cause, in my opinion do quite overthrow the same. For it appeareth to have been in the power of Emperors and civil magistrates, to appoint the manner and form of such elections: why else should they have needed to make any laws or constitutions for that matter? It is true that Musculus Lo. come. tit. de magistra. speaking of the civil Magistrate saith, Prudenter autem & magna. etc. But he must wisely and very Muscul. warily order the election of ministers, seeking nothing else but that the flock of the Lord might be provided for. He shall choose not only such men as are holy, but such as are also able to teach. He shall flee simony more than a dog or snake But he shall use that manner of election, which may be most profitable for the Churches: And, for so much as he is not able of himself to do all things which pertain hereunto, he shall use the help, and aid of faithful men, and of those that fear God, upon whose shoulders he may say the care or burden, whether they be within the order of the ministery of the word or of an other profession, but notwithstanding in such sort, that he himself do know them which are choose, and if they seem meet do by his authority and power confirm them. But to come to your authorities. The words that you do allege in codice justiniani, T. C. subtly concealeth the words of his author that make against him. must somewhere else be sought for, I think your author Illiricus is deceived in quoting that place: for surely I cannot understand that they are to be found in that book. But from what author soever they come, you have subtly left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you. Wherefore I will recite them word for word as they are reported in Illiricus, the author, out of whom you have borrowed them: Sequentes igitur doctrinam. etc. Following the doctrine of the holy Apostles, in that, that most pure and uncorrupt Priests aught to be choose, which are appointed for that cause chief, that by their prayers they might obtain the favour of the most merciful God towards common wealths: we do decree by this present constitution, that as often as it shall happen the room of any priest to be void, the inhabitants of the same city shall give their voices of three, which in true faith, holiness of life, and in all other good things are approved and allowed of, that of these, he which shall be most meet, might be choose Bishop. The Emperor says that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this, that they prescribe what manner of men are to be choose (sci integerrimi & incorruptissimi most pure and most uncorrupt.) not in the manner or kind of electing, as you would seem to make the Reader believe in noting these words only (following the doctrine of the holy Apostles) and leaving out that which followeth, & declareth wherein he meant to follow their doctrine, namely (de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi: in that that they which are most pure aught to be choose. etc.) For else why doth he add and say, sancimus we have decreed: and not rather, they have decreed? But the words that follow are most plain: quoties sacerdotalem sedem etc. as often as it shall happen that the room of a Priest shall be void, the inhabitants of that city shall give their voices of three. etc. for where did the Apostles ever appoint, that three should stand in the election? or what example have you of it in the whole scripture? so that you see here no one prescript rule or example of the Apostles in all points followed, but that order to be taken, and law made by the Emperor, which he thought for that state and time of the Church to be most convenient. In Novellis he seemeth to declare what is meant by the inhabiters of that city: for Constitutio 123. thus it is written: Sequentes igitur ea. etc. Following therefore those things which are decreed in the holy Canons, we make this pragmatical law, by the which we decree, that as oft as it shall be necessary to ordain a Bishop, the Clergy and primates of the city, for the which the Bishop is to be ordained, shall assemble together, and the Euangelies being laid before them, shall agreed and determine upon three people: And every one of them shall swear by the holy word of God (and that to be enrolled with their determination) that they have not choose these men, either for reward, or for promise, or for friendship, or favour, or for any other affection, but only because they know them to be of the true and catholic faith, and of honest conversation, and that they are above five and thirty years old. So that it is plain, that by the inhabitants of the city, he means the Clergy, and the chief people of the city. It followeth in the same constitution: Vt ex tribus illis personis, quae d cretis hoc modo eliguntur, melior ordinetur, electione & judicio eius, qui ordinandi ius habet. That of those three which are in this sort choose, the best may be ordained, by the election and judgement of him, that hath the authority to ordain. And this last clause may be an interpretation also of the meaning of that constitution, ex codice: that is, that the inhabitants choose three, of whom the Metropolitan should choose one to be Bishop: for it is evident that the Metropolitan had ius ordinandi, and that law in codice, differeth not one whit from this constitution. The words of Carolus Magnus, make with me rather than against me, for in that he says secundùm statuta canonum de propria dioecesi: according to the statutes of the Canons of that diocese; he plainly signifieth that in sundry diocese, there be sundry kinds and manners of elections, else would he have said, secundùm statuta canonum Apost. according to the statutes of the canons of the Apostles, or sacrae scripturae, of the holy scripture, or such like. But that which followeth in the same law maketh the matter manifest. Praecipimus etiam omnibus. etc. we will also and command all those which are subject to our jurisdiction, that no man attempt to spoil the privileges of the Churches, Monasteries, or the Churches themselves. etc meaning no doubt touching elections. That of Ludovike dist. 63. declareth also that it was in the Emperors power to altar the manner of elections, or to establish them: for else, to what purpose were these laws and Confirmations made? All this verifyeth my assertion, and proveth plainly, that the manner and form of calling and electing Ministers, is, and hath been, in the power of the civil Magistrate to order, as shall be most expedient for the present state of the Church: if the Prince think it convenient that the people should have voices in such elections, they may so have: if not, there is no law of God doth bind them to it: and that do all those laws of Emperors manifestly prove. Chap. 6. the eight Division. T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 4. 5. Platina also in the life of Pope Adrian the second, writeth that Ludovike the second by his letters (a) An yntruth, for he only come mendeth them for so doing, he doth not command them to do o. commanded the Romans that they should choose their own bishop, not looking for other men's voices, which being strangers could not so well tell what was done in the common weal where they were strangers, and that it appertaineth to the citizens. The same Platina witnesseth in the life of Pope Leo the. 8. that when the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperor Otho the first, that he would take away one Pope john that lived very licentiously & riotously, & place an other, the same Emperor answered, that it pertained to the clergy and people, to choose one, and willed them that they should choose, and he would approve it: and when they had choose Leo, and after put him out without cause, and chose one Pope Bennet, he compelled them to take Leo again. Whereby appeareth, that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian, and where the estate was most of all Monarchical, that is subject to one's government, and also when the Church put out any without good cause, that then the Magistrates should compel the Churches to do their duty. In deed the Bishop of Rome gave the election then into the Emperou his hands, because of the lightness of the people, as Platina maketh mention, but that is not the matter, for I do nothing else here but show that the elections of the ministers by the Church were used in the times of the Emperors, and by their consents. And seeing that Otho confessed it pertained not unto him, it is to be doubted, whether he took it at the Bishop his hands. Io. Whitgifte. You have not truly reported the words of Platina in the first place, for he saith Platina falsified by. T. C not that the Emperor Ludovike did command the Romans that they should choose their own Bishop, but that he commended them for their godly and sound choice. His words be these: Superuenere à Ludovico Imperatore literae, quibus Romanos admodùm laudat, quòd summum Platina in vita Adriani. 2. Pontificem sanctè & integrè creassent, There came letters from Ludovike the Emperor, wherein he praiseth the Romans very much, because they had holily and sincerely created the high Priest. etc. But Platina declareth how tumultuous an election that was, and how injuriously the emperors Ambassadors were secluded from the same, having therein interest: and although the Emperor was content to put up that injury, and to commend that election (peradventure for some worldly respect) yet it is manifest, that then the Bishops of Rome began to usurp upon the authority of the Emperor, and to seclude him from having any interest in their elections. M. Bale Bale. speaking of this election saith: Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem, ad se tunc rapiebant Romani, For the Romans then took by force unto themselves power to choose their Bishop. The second place of Platina argueth the undiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop, and the authority of the Emperor in taking this authority of placing and displacing from them, when they do abuse it: for here he put out Benet whom they had choose, & placed Leo whom they had displaced, whereby it appeareth, that there was not then any one such prescript form of electing the Bishop of Rome, but that it was in the authority of the Emperor, to abrogate, altar, or change it. All this is nothing to the improving of my assertion, for I deny not, but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops, in divers places, and especially in the Church of Rome, a long time: But this doth not prove, that there is any prescript rule in Scripture, for the election of ministers which may not be altered, and changed from time to time, as shall be most convenient for the present state of the Church: nay whatsoever you have hitherto said, proveth the contrary. Platina doth not writ that Otho coufessed that the election of the Bishop of 〈◊〉 did not pertain unto him: you should have a care to report the words of the author truly: it is one thing to say, that the election of the Bishop pertaineth to the Clergy and people, another thing to say, that it pertained not to him: for it might pertain to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saith, that after john was condemned by a council, and therefore fled away, the Emperor Otho, at the request of the Clergy, did created Leo Bishop of Rome: his words are these: Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta joan▪ 13 clero, Leonem Romanum civem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem create. For this cause Otho by the persuasion of the Clergy, chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome, and keeper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane, to be Bishop. He further in that place declareth, how the people after the emperors departure deposed Leo, and placed Benet, and how the Emperor by force compelled them to place Leo again. That Otho the Emperor did take this grant at the bishops hands, that the election of the Bishop should be in him, and not in the people, M. Bale testifieth in manifest words, in the life of Leo. 8. where he says thus. After, he took from the Clergy and people of Rome, the power of choosing their Bishop, which Carolus Magnus had given Bale in vita Leon. 8. unto them before, and by a synodal decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperor, for the avoiding of seditions which were wont to be in these elections, and Otho receiving this grant thankfully, that he might show himself again beneficial towards the Sea of Rome, restored all things which Constantine is feigned to have given. etc. In the which words also it is to be noted that this liberty of choosing their Bishop, was granted unto the people and Clergy of Rome by Carolus Magnus, the which not only M. Bale testifieth in this place, but M. Barnes also, in these words. Leo the. 8. understanding the wickedness of the Romans in obtruding their friends to the Church, by bribes, threatenings, and other wicked devices, did restore the interest of choosing the Bishop to Otho the Emperor. Whereof I also conclude, that it is in the power of the civil magistrate to take order for elections of ministers, and that the consent of the people is not of any necessity required thereunto. Chap. 6. the. 9 Division. T. C. Page. 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperors permitted the election of the Bishop to that City, where it made most for their surety, to have one of their own appointment, as was Rome, which with their Bishops did oftentimes put the good Emperors to trouble: it is to be thought, that in other places, both cities, and towns, they did not deny the elections of ministers to the people, besides that, certain of those constitutions are not of Rome, but of any city whatsoever. And these Emperors were, and lived between. 500 and odd years, until the very point of a thousand years after Christ, so that hitherto this liberty was not go out of the Church, albeit the Pop which brought in all tyranny, and went about to take all liberty from the Churches, was now on horse back, and had placed himself in that Antichristian seat. Io. Whitgifte. In that the Emperors did but permit such elections to the people, it is manifest, that the interest was in them, else why should they be said to have permitted it. In deed true it is, that the Emperors so long did remit of their interest in such elections, that afterwards when they would have claimed their right therein, they could not obtain it, but by violence were shut from all, as the histories manifestly deelare. Hitherto you have proved nothing in question, neither have you reasoned ad i'd m: T. C. hath not reason ad idem. for you should either have proved that the election of ministers doth of necessity pertain to the people, or that the same manner of electing is convenient for this Church of England in this time, and state: both which I have improved, and do still utterly deny, neither doth any thing that you have alleged, prove either of them. Chap. 6. the. 10. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 45. Sect. 3 Therefore this diversity of the state of the Church requireth a dive s kind of government, and another kind of ordaining ministers. For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi, which was Anno. 334. it was Concil. Laodic. decreed that the election of ministers should not be permitted to the people. T. C. Page. 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that writ the Centuries (a) This is untrue as shall appear. suspect this canon, and doubt whether it be a bastard or not, considering the practice of the Church: But here or ever you were ware, you have stricken at yourself. For before you said, that this order of choosing the minister by voices of the Church, was (b) An untruth, for I said not so. but in the Apostles time, and during the time of persecution. And the first time you can allege this liberty to be taken away, was in the. 334. year of our Lord, which was at the lest. 31. years after that Constantine the great began to reign. I say at the lest, because there be good authors that say, that this council of Laodicea was held Anno. 338. after the death of joninian the Emperor, and so there is. 35. years between the beginning of Constantine's reign, and this council. Now I think you will not say, that the Church was under (c) The Church was under persecution in Constantine's time by the space of 13. years, for Maxentius and Licinius did then persecute. persecution in Constantine's time. And therefore you see you are greatly deceived in your account. Now if it be as lawful for us to use M. Caluins' authority, which both by example and writings hath always defended our cause, as it is for you to wring him and his words, to things which he never inent, and the contrary whereof he continually practised, than this authority of yours is dashed. For M. Caluine says, whereas it is said in that council, that the election should not be permitted to the people, it means nothing else but that they should make no election, without having Upon the Acts. 16. some ministers or men of judgement to direct them in their election, and to gather their voices, and provide that nothing be done tumultuously, even as Paul and Barnabas were chief in the election of the Churches: And even the same order would we have kept in elections continually for avoiding of confusion, for as we would have the liberty of the Church preserved, which Christ hath bought so dearly, from all tyranny: So do we again condemn and utterly abhor the barbarous confusion and disorder. Io. Whitgifte. Where do those that writ the Centuries suspect that Canon? why note you not the place? there is not one word tending to that end, in that place where they speak of this Council. Neither as I think are you able to show any such thing affirmed by them, and it is the first time that ever I either read or herded it doubted, whether this were a Canon of that council or no. In the. 4. Cent. col. 435. I found these words: variant ab ac consuetudine, mirum qua veritate, constitutiones Concilij Laodiceni, quae ordinationes judicio multitudinis fieri probibuerunt. The constitutions of the Council of Laodicea, which forbade Cent. 4. the ordaining (of ministers) to be done by the judgement of the multitude, do vary from this custom (of electing by the people) it is marvel by what truth. But no man can hereof gather that they doubt whether this Canon be a bastard or no. Only they doubt whether this decree was made according to the truth. The general Council at Constantinople, which is called Synodus. 6. did both allow this council, and ratify it. It is not greatly material at what time this Council was held: Neither doth it follow that because this decree was now made against such elections of the people, therefore the people had before this time in all places interest, in electing of ministers: for it may be that some claimed this interest, and moved the people to contend for it then, as you do now: and therefore the Synod might upon that occasion make this determination: as the like might be made at this time in this Church of England, against such parishes as take upon them the election of their Pastors, as you before affirmed Page. 3. some to do: and yet we could not thereupon truly conclude, that before the time of this prohibition the election of ministers was either generally, or orderly committed to the people in this Church of England. I have not in any place said that this order of choosing the minister by the voices of the Church was but in the Apostles time, and during the time of persecution, neither yet, that they could claim it of duty in either of these times, or that it was then general, and in all places: for I have before showed the contrary. And where you think that I will not say the Church was under persecution in Constantine's The Church in persecution in Constantine's time. time (though it be not material) yet must I tell you that I think it was: for even then Maxentius and Licinius did persecute, and continued in persecuting by the space of. 13. years after Constan. began his reign: and it is said of Licinius that he killed many thousands of Christians. I have not at any time wrung M. calvin's words to any other sense, than he himself hath written them: if it be otherwise, make it knewne: for I have dealt plainly and set down his words, so have not you. In his Institutions cap. 8. Sect. 63. thus he writeth of this Council: Est quidem & illud fateor. etc. And surely I confess, that it was Caluine of the Council of Laodicea. upon great reason decreed in the Council of Laodicea, that the election should not be permitted to the multitude: for it scarcely at any time happeneth that so many heads should with one consent determine any thing: And that saying is almost true, that the unstable multitude is divided into contrary factions. etc. Then doth he tell what order was observed in elections: first the Clergy only did choose, than did they offer him whom they had choose, to the magistrate, or to the Senate, and chief rulers, who after deliberation, did confirm the election, if they liked of it: if not, then did they choose another whom they thought to be more meet. In the end, the matter was propounded to the multitude, rather to know their desire, and require their testimony, than to give them any interest either of choosing or refusing: this is the sum of calvin's meaning, and this he says, was the meaning of that Council: which I say is in ffect, to take away the election from the people. Your note in the margin must be corrected, for Caluine hath no such thing upon the. 16. of the Acts: but the like he hath upon the. 14. howbeit the words of the Council be plain, quòd non sit permittendum turbis electiones eorum facere, qui sunt ad sacer dotium provebendi: Concil. Laodicen. Can. 13. That it aught not to be permitted unto the multitude, to make elections of them, which should be preferred to the ministery. And there can be no doubt of the meaning of the Council, because it appeareth in the. 12. Canon that they would have Bishops preferred to ecclesiastical dignity, by the judgement of the Metropolitan and other Can. 12. Bishops. Liberty and tyranny be too common in your mouth. It is no tyranny to restrain the people from that liberty that is hurtful to themselves, and must of necessity engender contentions, tumults, and confusion. Chap. 6. the. 11. Division. T. C. Page. 37. Sect. 3 But if Counsels be of so great authority to decide this controversy, them the most famous Council of Nice will strike a great stroke with you, which in an Epistl that it writeth unto the Church of Egypt (as Theodoret maketh mention) speaketh thus. It is meet that (a) This is 〈◊〉 of the Clearg , not of the people. you should have power both to choose any man, and to give their names which are worthy to be amongst the Clergy, and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the Church, and if it happen any to dye in the Church, then that those which were last taken to be promoted to the honour of him that is dead, with this condition, if they be worthy, and the people choose them, the Bishop of the city of Alexandria together giving his consent and appointing him. Io. Whitgifte. The Council in that epistle, first declareth what was done with Arius: then what become of Melitius, how he was deposed from his Bishopric, and yet suffered to remain in his own city, but to have no authority of choosing or ordaining ministers either in the province, or in any other city. After it showeth that such as were ordained and made ministers, or promoted by him, should keep their ministery and honour, but not have any authority in elections, or in preferring of any to any degree The. li. . cap. 9 of ministery, whereupon it by and by followeth, qui verò Dei gratia. etc. but those that by the grace of God and your prayers, have not been factious and schismatical, but kept themselves undefiled in the Catholic and apostolic Church, it is meet that they should have authority and power, both to choose any man, and to give their names which are worthy to be of the Clergy: And to do all things according to the laws and decrees of the Church. Their meaning is evident, that such only of the Clergy should have to do in electing or preferring any to the ministery, which have not been schismatical and factious in the time of heresy: for these words of the Council are not spoken of the people, but of the Clergy, as the circumstance of the place doth declare: which thing jacobus Grinaeus noteth in the margin, in these words: jura Clericorum qui ortbodoxi manserunt. That which followeth and if it happen any to dye in the Church. etc. doth argue that the people had a consent in those Churches, according to the orders whereof the Council would have them to proceed: but it maketh no new law for it, neither doth it decree any thing as concerning it. And it is evident that their order herein was not general, but particular to those Churches: for it followeth after in the same epistle, This order was peculiar to Egypt and Alexandria. Haec propriè & peculiariter ad Aegyptum, atque sanctissimam Alexandrinam ecclesiam pertinent. So that it is manifest that the meaning of the Council was not to bind all Churches to this order. But all this labour of yours is lost, for you go about to prove that which no man denieth. Chap. 6. the twelfth Division. T. C. Page. 37. Sect. 4. Another of the famousest counsels, called the Council of Constantinople, which was gathered under Theodosius the great (as it is witnessed by the Tripartite story) in an epistle which it written Lib. 9 cap. 19 to Damasus the Pope, and Ambrose and others, says thus: we have ordained Nectarius the Bishop of Constantinople with the whole consent of the Council, in the sight of the Emperor Theodosius beloved of God, the whole city together decreeing the same. Likewise he saith that Flanian was appointed by that Synod bishop of Antioch, the whole people appointing him. Io. Whitgifte. The words in that epistle both as the Tripartite histo. and as Theodoret himself reporteth them lib. 5. cap. 9 signify, that the whole city was well pleased, that Nectarius was choose to be their Bishop, and consented unto it: But it doth not therefore follow that the whole city did choose him. In Theodoret I found these words. Reverendissimum T e. li. 5. cap. 9 & dei amantissimun Nectarium episcopum praeposuimus in generali nostro Con ilio, & present amantissimo dei Imperatore Theodosio, cum omnium clericorum, ac totius civitatis approbatione. We have placed or ordained the most reverend, and loving Nectarius, in our general Council, both Theodosius (the Emperor most beloved of God) being present, and also with the approbation of all the Clergy and the whole city. They say we have placed or ordained Nectarius. etc. and they which say so were bishops. Moreover Theodoret in the chapter that goeth before, says plainly that the Pastors and ministers did choose him Bishop. But be it that the whole city did give their voices: that is no proof, that at all times it must of necessity be so. The same answer I make to your example of Flavianus. Chap. 6. the xiij Division. T. C. Page. 37. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Likewise in the council of Carthage where Augustine was, held about Anno Domin . Needless proofs. 400. in the first Canon of the Council it is said, when he hath been examined in all these, and found fully instructed, then let him be ordained Bishop by the common consent of the Clerks, and the lay people and the Bishops of the province, and especially either by the authority, or presence of the Metropolitan. And in the Toletane council, as it appeareth in the. 51. distinction, it was thus ordained. Let not him be counted a Priest of the Church (for so they speak) whom neither the Clergy nor people of that city where he is a Priest, doth choose, nor the consent of the Metropolitan and other Priests in that province had sought after. Moreover Concilium Gabilonense which was held Anno domini. 650. in the tenth Canon hath this. If any Bishop after the death of his predecessor be choose of any but of the Bishops in the same province▪ and of the Clergy and citizens, let another be choose, and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accounted of none effect. All which Counsels prove manifestly, that as the people in their elections had the ministers round about, or Synods and counsels directing them, so there was none came to be over the people, but by their voices and consents. Io. Whitgifte. This which is affirmed of these Counsels, is confessed to be true, but not to the purpose: for the question is not whether the people's consent were required at any time or not, but whether it must be required at all times. Chap. 6. the. xiv. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 45. Sect. 4. This alteration of government and orders in the Church of Christ is well set out by Ambrose in the. 4. to the Ephe. upon these words, Et ipse dedit. etc. where he says on this sort, that the number of Christians Ambrose. might increase and be multiplied, in the beginning it was permitted to every one to preach the gospel, to baptize, and to expound the scriptures, but when the Church was enlarged there were certain parishes appointed, and governors and other officers ordained in the Church. etc. Therefore the writings of the Apostles do not in all things agreed with the orders that are now in the Church. Thus far Ambrose. T. C. Pag. 38. Sect. 1 Indeed if you put such dark colours upon the Apostles Church as this is, it is no marvel if it aught not to be a patron to us of framing and fashioning our Church after it. But O Lord who can patiently hear this horrible disorder, ascribed to the Apostles Church, which here you attribute unto it, that every one hand over head preached, baptized, and expounded the scriptures, what a window, nay, what a gate is opened here to (a) The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you c 〈…〉 for. Anabaptists, to confirm their fantastical opinion, wherein they hold that every man whom the spirit moveth may come, even from the plough tail, to the pulpit, to preach the word of God. If you say it is Ambrose saying & not yours, I answer, unless you allow it why bring you it, and that to prove the difference between the Apostles times and these? For if it be false (as it is most false) then there is no difference here between the Apostles times and ours. Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare, and hath it not been proved, that there was none that took upon him the ministery in the church, but by lawful calling? what is this but to cast dust and dirt of the fairest and beautifullest image that ever was, to make a smoky, disfigured, evil proportioned image to seem beautiful, to overthrow the Apostles buildings of gold and silver, and precious stones, to make a cottage of wood, straw, and stubble, to have some estimation, which could have none the other standing. For in effect so you do, when to uphold a corrupt use that came in by the tyranny of the Pope, you go about to discredit the orders and institutions which were used in the Apostles times, and that with such manifest untruths. Io. Whitgifte. This is a very slender answer to Ambrose, whose authority both for his excellent Ambrose unworthily razors 〈…〉ted. by T. C. learning, and virtue, and also for his antiquity, is not to be so contemptuously rejected. The self-same word and to the same effect doth Georgius mayor in his commentaries upon the first to the Philip. recite out of one Rabanus Bishop of Moguntia, who also borrowed them as it should seem, of Ambrose. Maior alloweth well of them, and maketh no such exclamations as you do, and yet a man known to be learned, and sound in religion, as his works declare. Likewise the authors of the Centuries. 4. Cent. cap. 7. allege this same place of Ambrose, and allow of it: and therefore the matter is not so heinous as you make it. Anabaptistes pretend a kind of calling by the people. The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you now contend for, as it appeareth in the. 3. book of M. Bullinger adver. Anabap. cap. 4. whose words be these, suam verò vocationem etc. They affirm that their calling is just, because they be called and sent of their 〈◊〉. Churches: but our vocation to be unlawful, which is made of the magistrate, and therefore, that they are sent of God, but we of the world and of men. You know that this was one of the first things that the rusti all Anabaptists moved sedition for, and that they required it of the magistrates, as Sleydan declareth li. 5. ex his postulatis, says he, primum erat, ut 〈◊〉. ipsis liceret ecclesiae ministros eligere, qui verbum dei purè doceant: Of those requests, the first was, that they might choose ministers of the Church, which might teach the word of God purely. You see therefore that the Anabaptists many of them, require a vocation, and one not much unlike that which you strive for in this place, and at this time. When Ambrose says that it was permitted to every man to preach the Gospel. etc. he doth not say that it was permitted unto them without some kind of calling: if you will view the place well, and consider it at large, as it is in Ambrose, your heat will be something quenched I doubt not. It is no derogation at all from the Apostolical Church, to have the orders of it in divers points altered: for though such were most convenient then for that state, time, and people, yet are they not so now in respect of this state, time, and people, so that the form of the Apostolical Churches was then perfit, and absolute, though now it admit (in the respect of divers circumstances) alteration. Chap. 6. the. 15. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 45. Sect. ult. Musculus also in his common places answering to this question, Musculus. why that ministers of the word are not choose now by the ministers and the people, as they were in the primitive Church, but appointed by the Magistrate, says thus: talis tum ecclesiarum erat status, ut aliter non essent eligendi ministri, quia Christiano magistratu destituebantur. Si revocas temporum illorum mores, primùm conditiones & statum quoque illorum revoca. Such was then the state of Churches, that they could choose their ministers no otherwise, because they had no Christian Magistrates. If thou wouldst have the manners and customs of those times observed, then must thou call back their conditions and state. T. C. Page. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. ult. &. Sect 39 Sect. 1 2. The place is to common which you assign, you had I am sure the book before you: you might have told where the place was, and in what title. But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate, is answered by himself e in the same book, where he entreateth of the election of the ministers. For going about (as it seemeth) to satisfy some of their ministers, which were brought in do bt of their calling, because they were not choose by their Churches, speaking of the use of the Church in choosing their minister he saith thus. First it must be plainly confessed, that the ministers were in times past choose by consent of the people, and or eyned and confirmed of the seignioures. Secondarily that that form of election was Apostolical and lawful. Thirdly, that it was conformable to the liberty of the Church, and that thrusting the Pastor upon the Church, not being choose of it, doth agreed to a Church that is not free, but subject to bondage. Fourthly, that this form of choice by the Church maketh much both to that that the minister may govern his flock with a good conscience, as also that the people may yield themselves to be easilier ruled, than when one cometh against their wills unto them. And to conclude all these, he saith that they are altogether certain, and such as cannot be denied. After he saith that the corrupt estate of the Church and religion driveth to altar this order, and to call the election to certain learned men, which should after be confirmed of the Prince. And that it may yet more clearly appear that his judgement is nothing less than to confirm this election, he setteth down their election in Bernland, which he approveth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agreed with the election of the primitive Church, yet cometh very near unto it: As that not one man, but all the ministers in the city of Berue do choose a Pastor when there is any place voided. Afterwards he is sent to the Senate, from the which, if he be doubted of, he is sent again to the ministers, to be examined, and then if they found him meet, he is confirmed of the Senate (which standeth of some number of the people) and by the most part of their voices. By these things it appeareth, that this election of the Minister, by the people, is lawful and Apost like, and confe said also by him, that those that are otherwise, bring with them subjection unto the Church, and servitude, and carya note and mark of corruption of Religion. last of all that he go h about to defend the election used in the Churches where he was Minister by this, that it approached unto the election in the primitive Church. Now what cause there may be, that we should bring the Church into bondage, or take away the order whereby both the Minister may be better assured of his calling, and the people may the willyngiyer submit themselves unto their pastors and governors, or what cause to depart from the apostolic form, of the choice of the Pastor being lawful, I confess I know not, and would be glad to learn. To assign the cause hereof unto the Christian Magistrate, and to say, that these things can not be had under him (as you under Master Musculus name do affirm) is oh do great injury unto the office of the Magistrate, which abridgeth not the liberty of the Church but defendeth it, diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling, but rather increaseth it, by establishing the ordinary callings only, which in the time of pierce ution some times are not so ordinary, withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor, but urgeth it where it is not, and constraineth it where it is not voluntary? And seeing that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉ning 〈◊〉 Musculus saith, that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of Religion, and disordered states, what greater dishonour can there be done unto the holy institution of God in the civil governor, than to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people, must be where there is a Christian Magistrate: as though there could be no pure Religion under him, when as in deed it may be easily under him pure, which can hardly, and with great danger be pure without him. And when as it is said, that the Church's consent should be had in the election of the Minister, (a) Here you are one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica form. we do not deny the confirmation of the elections unto the godly civil Magistrate and the disannulling of them, if the Church in choosing, and the Ministers in directing, shall take any unfit man, so that yet, he do not take away the liberty from the Church, of choosing a more convenient man. So that you see, that by Musculus your witness reasons, this enforced election without the consent of the people, is but corrupt, and so ought not to be in the Church. And that although it hath been born withal, yet it must be spoken against, and the lawful form of election laboured for, of all those that love the truth, and the sincerity thereof. Io. Whitgifte. Turpe est doctori. etc. you have before told us, what justinian saith (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice: Also T. C. tripped in that where he finds fau with other. of (b) Page. 37. Sect. 3 an Epistle sent from the council of Nice unto the Church of Egypt, as Theodoret maketh mention: of the council of (c) Page. 37. Sect. 5. Carthage, of (d) Ibidem sect▪ 6 Toletane council, and afterward you tell us what (e) Pag. 4 . Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3 & Gratian say, and will, that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seen. etc. & yet you neither tell us in what part of justinian's Code, in what book of Chap. of Theodoret, in what council of Cartharge, or of Toledo, in what tome of Augustine, or part of Gratiam, in what century, or book of centuries, which all require much more time to search out, than this of Musculus, & especially your law, which (for any thing that I can perceive) asketh so long a search in codice justiniani, that I think it will never be found there. But it is no great marvel for you report them as the Author doth of whom you borrow them, without any further search or trial. But to put you out of doubt, this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus. Musculus in deed confesseth that in the Apostles time, ministers were chosen by the people, and ordained and confirmed by the elders. And after that he hath showed this manner of election to have been used t Cyprians time, he addeth and saith: Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b▪ ministris. modum eligebantur. etc. After this manner in times paste were Ministers, bishops, and Deacons elected: the which form also of electing, Churches retained unto the time of Christian Princes and Magistrates, whose consent was required in the election of bishops, and that worthily, for it is not meet that those things which are to be done publicly, and concern the people which be their subjects, and pertain unto them in respect of Religion (except we will say with the Anabap. that Christians aught not to be Magistrates) should be done without their consent. After this, he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end, spoiled the Magistrate and the people also of this liberty: and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Roman Church in that matter, he maketh an objection of such Churches as profess the Gospel, saying, but some peradventure widow l object that those Churches which in our time will seem to have reform Religion receive their ministers of the Magistrate, & not by any election of the people: to this objection he saith that he is compelled to answer for their sakes: who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord, yet do they doubt whether their vocation be lawful or not, because they were not elected & ordained according to the Apostolical form: And having confessed those points that you here set down, he maketh this resolution. Verum si consideres diversum ecclesiae statum. etc. If thou shalt consider the divers state of the Church, thou must confess, that that which in itself is Apostolical, lawful, & usual, & convenient for the liberty of the Churches, primis quidem ecclesiae temporibus prodesse potuisse, nostris vero non ita: might well profit the Church in the beginning, but not so in our time. For then there was not such a multitude of Christians, but that the minister without tumult, might by common consent be choose, which thing at this day were very hard to be done. Moreover then the minds of the faithful were not so generally infected with common errors, nor so blinded with false worshippings, but they remained as yet in the doctrine & Religion which they had received of the Apostles: wherefore it might well be, that a true minister might be choose by their common suffrages. But after that the number of Christians was increased to an infinite multitude, & first schisms, then general ignorance, blindness, & sundry kinds of superstition invaded the Church, etc. there could no longer any true & sincere minister be elected by the general consent of the people etc. wherefore for the condition of the time, necessity itself required, that Princes & Magistrates should commit this matter to certain wise men careful for the Church, by whose means meet pastors might be placed, etc. then he addeth: that for the circumstances of time, as in all Churches the Apostolical form of electing & ordaining cannot be restored▪ so is there no cause, why the minister of Christ, being called to preach the Gospel by a godly Prince, & Magistrate, should doubt of his calling, whether it be right & Christian or no. But he must remember that where the state of the Church, & of Religion is corrupt, another way must be found out to remedy the same, than that which was used in the Churches, when all things was safe and sound. In the end he declareth what manner of electing & ordaining Ministers is used in the church of Berne. Neither doth he in that place or any other that I know, go about to defend the election used in the Church where he was Minister, by this, that it approached unto the election of the Primitive Church, as you report him to do. Thus have I truly reported Musculus his words in that place, and his order: than the which what can be more directly spoken to my purpose? which is to prove that no one certain manner and form of electing Ministers, is anywhere appointed to be general, and perpetual, but that the same may be altered according to place, time, and people: and that the manner used in the Apostles time, is not meet and convenient for this time. All this I say Musculus hath plainly, and by good reasons here proved, which he doth also as manifestly confirm in the title de Magistratibus. For after that he hath declared that it pertaineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers, he saith dices: at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs, in quibus à ministris & plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum antistites, respondeo, talis tum ecclesiarum erat status. etc. as it is in my answer. For the subjection and bondage of the Church which you so often talk of, this is my answer in few words: that subjection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful, is no bondage to any, but to such as think dutiful obedience to be servitude & bondage, as the Anabaptistes do. Why the people are debarred from electing (which you call the Apostolical form of the choice of the Pastor) you may learn by that which hath been hitherto spoken, if you be so desirous to learn, as you would seem to be. That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulness of his calling, though The minister may be assured of his calling though he be not choose by the people. he be not called of the people, you have also heard of Musculus, who of purpose answereth that doubt. He that is sure of an inward calling need not to doubt of his outward calling, if it be according to the manner and form of that Church wherein he is called. That the people do as willingly now submit themselves to their Pastors and governors, (though they have no interest in electing of them) as they did then, experience teacheth in all places, where there be good and virtuous pastors, except only in such as you and yours have set on fire with contention and contempt. You say to assign the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate. etc. We give unto the Magistrate that which of duty belongeth unto him in the respect that he is a Christian Magistrate, and hath the chief government of the Church in all causes, & over all people: and you desirous of popularity, withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due unto him, giving the same to the people, and vulgar sort. You count it an abridging of the liberty of the Church, a diminishing of the pastors assurance of his calling, a withdrawing of the people from the pastor, to be short, a bringing of the people into bondage, for the Magistrate to maintain his right in using that kind of appointing Ministers, which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Church committed unto him: and is not this to do great injury to the office of the Magistrate? Why do you not plainly say that the queens Majesty abridgeth the liberty of the Church, diminisheth the pastors assurance of his calling, withdraweth the people from their pastor, urgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntary, & bringeth them into bondage, because she will not suffer them to have freedom in the elections of their Bishops, and Pastors? for this is your plain meaning. But temper your popular and undutiful speeches: the true The true liberty of the Church. liberty of the Church, which is liberty of conscience, and freedom from false doctrine, errors and superstitions, and not licence for every man to do what himself liweth, was never more in any Church: pastors never had better cause to be assured of their calling: the people at no time more bond to cleave to their pastors: never less cause to complain of urging constraint, servitude, or bondage, than they have at this day under her Majesty: but you go about to persuade them to the contrary, which where unto it tendeth, would be in time considered. Musculus saith, that this manner of ordering Ministers (for he doth not call it T. C. transferreth that corruptions of men's minds, to the government. forced elections) is a remedy against corrupted states, not in respect of laws, government, Magistrate, or Religion by authority established, but of menues minds that are corrupted with errors, contentions, and sinister affections, and this is no dishonour to the civil governor. For if in a kingdom there be many wayward and disordered people, the fault is in themselves, and not in the Magistrate, nor in the kind of government, but a great commendation rather, when as by the diligence of the Magistrate, and profitable kind of government, such disordered people be corrected and reform, or at the lest kept under and restrained. Is it a dishonour to the Prince, that where as she found the whole Realm corrupted in doctrine, now it is otherwise, though not in the hearts of many, yet in external form, and public regiment? Wherefore you do but subtly, (I will not say contemptuously) transfer that to the Magistrate and kind of government, which Musculus means of the corrupt minds and affections of the common sort of men. You add that when it is said, that the Church's consent should be had in the election of T. C. urgeth the Apostolical form, and yet bringeth in that which is not Apostolical. the minister. etc. but how shall we know that you mean as you speak? for you have no warrant so to do in any Apostolical election, or in any form used in the Apostles time. Wherefore either you must break that rule which you would have both to be perfect, and perpetual for all times, and states, or else do you but dissemble with the Magistrate, and mind nothing less than that you say you would do. But as good never a whit, as never a deal the better: for the Magistrate must The absurdities of the devise of T. C. confirm them, or reject them, if he be godly, and take not from the Church her liberty in choosing. First, what if the Magistrate be ungodly? or who shall judge whether he be so or no? or how shall the Magistrate know when the Church in choosing, and the Ministers in directing shall take any unfit man? who shall complain to the Prince of his unfitness, if both the Ministers and people think him fit? or who shall judge of his fitness? or what privilege shall the Magistrate have hereby, when he must have one of the people's electing whether he will or not, or else must the Church the destitute? Surely the Magistrate should have a good office, to be so troubled with such elections in this Church of England. In good sadness tell me, do you not see the absurdities of these your fond and troublesome devices? or are you so blind, that you perceive not how far you would serve from the form, which you say was used by the Apostles, when you give to the civil Magistrate the confirmation of ministers, which they in their time kept to themselves? Musculus hath in most plain manner taught the self same thing, that I have done, as it may appear to all those that will understand: but you of purpose would blind both yourself and others. That Bishops have authority to admit and ordain Ministers. Chap. 7. the first Division. Admonition. Now that authority is given into the hands of the Bishop alone, who by his sole authority thrusteth upon them such, as they many times, as well for unhonest life, as also for lack of learning, may, and do justly dislike. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 46. Sect. 1 That Bishops have authority to admit Ministers (which is here denied) it is plain by that which is written. 1. Tim. 5. manus citò ne cui imponas, Lay thy hands rashly on none. These words Ambrose, Chrysostom, and all learned writers, for the most part, do say to be an Admonition to Timothy, that he ought to be circumspect in appointing of Ministers. And to Titus chap. 1. Paul saith that he left him at Creta, ut constituat oppidatim presbyteros, that he should appoint Ministers in every town. This Jerome and others do expound of the authority that Titus had in placing ministers in every Church. T. C. Pag. 39 Sect. 3. 4. & Pag. 40. Sect. 1. 2. Now you would prove (*) A wilful de praving of the Answer. that this election of Ministers by one man was in the Apostles tyme. But you have forgotten yourself, which said a little before, that this election by the Church, was not only in the Apostles times, but also in the time of Cyprian: now you say otherwise. And if the election of the minister by the Church agreed so well with the time of persecution, and when there is no christian Magistrate, how cometh it to pass, that in those days when persecution was so hot, and there were no such Magistrates, that Saint Paul would have the election by one man, and not by the Church. Besides that, if (*) Who hath said so this be Saint Paul his commandment, that the Bishop should only choose the Minister, why do you make it an indifferent thing, and a thing in the power of the Church to be varied by times, for this is a flat commandment. Thus you see you throw down with one hand, as fast as you build with the other. But to answer directly to the place of the fifth of the first to Timothy. I say first, that Saint Paul writeth to Timothy, and therefore instructeth him what he should do for his part in the appointing of the Minister. If he had written to the whole church of Ephesus, he would likewise have instructed them how they should have behaved themselves in that business. If one do writ unto his friend, that hath interest in any election, to take heed that he choose none but such as are meet, shall any man conclude thereupon, that none hath to do in that election, but he to whom that letter is written? Then I say further that Saint Paul attributeth that unto Timothy, that was common to more with him, because he being the director and moderator of the election is said to do that which many do: which thing I have proved by diverse examples both out of the Scripture, and otherwise before. And even in this imposition of hands, it is manifestly to be showed. For that whereas Saint Paul 2. Tim. 1. saith in the second Epistle that Timothy was ordained by the putting on of his hands upon him, in the first Epistle he saith, that he was ordained by the putting on of the hands of the 1. Tim. 4. eldership. So that that which he in one place taketh to himself alone, in the other he communicateth with more. Again, it is a fault in you, that you can not distinguish or put difference between the election, and imposition of hands. Last of all I answer that although this might agreed to Timothy alone, as in deed it can not, yet it followeth not that every Bishop may do so. For Timothy was an Evangelist, which was above a Bishop, as hereafter shall better appear. And it is an evil argument to say the greater may do it therefore the less may do it. The superior, therefore the inferior. If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses, you should not be so wise to be so lavish of them, as to cite Ambrose and Chrysostom, to prove a thing that none hath ever denied for who denieth that Saint Paul doth not give warning to Timothy to be circumspect? if you mean to use their testimony to prove that he only made the elections, they say never a word for you, if there be any thing, cite it. To the place of Titus, I answer as to that of Timothy, for there is nothing there, but agreeth also to this place. And as for Jerome, he hath nothing in that place, as he hath in no other, to (*) As if there were any 〈◊〉 thing affirmed. prove that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of the election of the Minister. I have showed you reasons before, why it can not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop, the Church being shut out. If authority would do any good in this behalf, as it seemeth it aught, seeing that all your proof throughout the whole book, is in the authorities of men, (which Aristotle calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, uncunning proofs) I could sand you to M. Caluine which teacheth, that it is not to be thought that S. Paul would permit to Titus to ordeive Bishops & ministers by his own authority, when he himself would not take so much upon him, but joined his with the voices of the Church. But he peradventure savoureth not your hast, and yet you would make men believe sometimes, that you make much of him, if you can get but one word (a) An untrue accusation. unjointed, and racked in pieces from the rest, to make good your part. If he weigh not with you, you have M. Musculus, whom you take to be a great patron of yours in this cause, Musculus in his come. pla. in his title of the election of ministers which doth with greater vehemency affirm the same thing that M. Caluine saith, ask whether any man can believe that Paul permitted in this place to Titus, or in the place before alleged to Timothy, that they should ordain of their own authority, & by themselves, when as Paul would not do it but by the voices and election of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. The Admonition in the sixt article colourably, but in the. 7. plainly affirmeth, that Bishop's may admit ministers. the right of ordering ministers doth at no hand appertain to the Bishop: this do I improve in this place, and prove that the right of ordering & electing Ministers, doth appertain to the Bishop: but I have contented myself with the fewer proofs, because their assertion is so absurd, that it can not but discredit their learning with all learned men. And what so ever T. C. hath hitherto said, manifestly declareth it to be untrue: yet now it is his pleasure to gloss upon my words, and to say that I would prove this election of Ministers by one man, to have been in the Apostles time. etc. Whereas in deed my words be plain, and my meaning is to prove that the electing and ordering of ministers doth appertain to Bishops: I do not say only to Bishops. When you say that the election of the Pastor doth appertain to the people, do you mean that it only pertaineth to the people? But because you think that to be so great a matter, to say that in the Apostles time the election of Ministers was by one man, seeing that I have said before that this election by the Church was in the Apostles time and after, I will say now more than I said before, that they be both true: that is, that in the divers kinds of ordaining & electing ministers in the Apostles time. Apostles time there was diverse manners of ordaining & electing Ministers. For some time one alone did choose, and ordain, sometimes many, sometimes Ministers only, and sometime the people also: as it may evidently be gathered, both by that which is spoken before, and by this also that I do say in this place. Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesiastes saith thus, We read in old time of three kinds of elections: some Zuinglius. were choose by the common and general consent of all the faithful gathered together in one place: Other some were elected and sent by the Apostles only: Other some we may find, whom one only Apostle did choose and sand, as Titus whom Paul left at Creta, committing unto him, the care of that Church. The like saith M. Bullinger Lib. 3. adversus Bullinger. Anabap. cap. 4. there is another calling of those, which are also called of God, but by men, which choose & send according to gods ordinance, as when Peter sent Mark, and Paul both called and sent Timothy, Titus & Luke. Thus you see that it is counted no strange matter to have divers kinds of calling & electing ministers, even in the Apostles time. And therefore in saying now, that Bishops have authority to admit ministers, I say nothing contrary to any thing that I have said before, neither yet if I affirm that Timothy and Titus had this authority to themselves alone. The election of the Minister by the Church is fittest for the time of persecution: but that doth not seclude from the same time, election and calling by one man: neither is this the question, whether choosing by the common consent of the people, or calling & sending by one man, be meetest for the time of persecution: but whether election made by the multitude, is fit for the time of persecution, and when there is no christian Magistrate, than for the time of prosperity, and under a Christian Magistrate: and therefore you do but encumber the Reader with false suppositions. Elections by the multitude, or by one only, may be used in the time of persecution, and at other times also, as shall be most expedient for the Church. Where do I say, that it is Paul's commandment that the Bishop should only T. C. perverteth the saying of the Answerer. choose the Minister? undoubtedly this is no true or divine dealing, willingly and wittingly to pervert a man's saying, neither can it come of a good conscience, and you have faulted in it very often. I prove by that which S. Paul said to Timothy 1 Ti 5. (Lay thy hands rashly on none) that a Bishop hath authority to admit 1. Tim. 5. Ministers, because Timothy to whom these words were spoken, was a Bishop: and learned interpreters do say, that Saint Paul by these words did admonish Timothy, that he aught to be circumspect in appointing of ministers: Therefore this is not Paul's commandment, that a Bishop only should ordain ministers, but this he giveth in charge to all Bishops, in the name of Timothy, that they lay their hands rashly on none: whereby also he plainly signifieth that the ordering and electing of Ministers doth appertain unto them, which is denied by the Admonition. Here is then nothing thrown down that was before builded, but you cast snow balls at the windows of the building, which may for a time darken them, till your snow be melt away with the Sun. Touching your direct answer, (as you call it) to the place. 1. Tim. 5. thus I briefly reply, that it is but devised of your own head, not grounded upon any good authority, nor consonant to the circumstance of the place, or course of the Epistle. Both Ambrose and Chrisostome and other learned writers (as I have said) do understand it to be meant of the authority that Timothy had in ordering Bishops and ministers. The whole Epistle, and the circumstance of this place do plainly testify, that this was spoken to Timothy, only in the respect that he was a Bishop. The precepts that be contained in this Epistle, the most of them, and in this Chapter especially, are such as properly pertain to Timothy in the respect that he was a Bishop, and a Minister of the word. To conclude, if the election of a Bishop had of necessity pertained to the people, Paul would not have written in this manner to Timothy as he hath done, describing unto him what qualities he that is to be elected bishop ought to have, but he would rather have written the same to the people, or willed Timothy to declare it unto them. Neither doth he any where in any of his Epistles write to any Church, to give them any instructions in this so necessary a matter: but only writeth of the same in those Epistles to Timothy and Titus being Bishops, which may be an argument that the ordering of Ministers doth properly appertain to a Bishop, and that this also, manus citò. etc. is spoken to Timothy in that respect. A man mave write to his friend that hath interest in an election, but Paul doth not only writ unto Timothy as to one that hath interest, but as to one in whom the whole interest consists. When you say that Paul attributeth that to Timothy, that was common to him with more, if you mean more Bishops, than it is true, for it is a rule for all Bishops to follow: but if you mean other of the people, then do you but shift of the matter with guessing. To your proofs of that phrase and kind of speech I have answered before, it is but a starting hole to fly unto, when you are foiled by the plain and evident words of the Scripture. That which is by you alleged. 2. Ti. 1. and 1. Ti. 4. maketh for my purpose: for you have before confessed, that imposition of hands was not by Fol. 31. Sect. 4. the Church and people, but by the Elders and Ministers: and you allege these places 1. Timo. 4. and 2. Timo. 1. to prove the same. And therefore I much marvel to what end you now allege them, except it be to prove your phrase, for they cannot prove any election made by the people, unless you will say and unsay at your pleasure. But to put you out of doubt, imponere manus, to lay on hands, sometimes signifieth the To say on hands, is diversly taken. Bullinger. ceremony only of laying on of hands, and sometimes the whole manner & form of ordering. And in this second signification it is taken. 1. Ti. 5. &. 2. Ti. 1. Bull. expounding this place. 1. Ti. 5. saith, manus enim imponere aliud non est, quam ecclesiae aliquem praeficere & ordinare, To lay on hands is nothing else, but to ordain & appoint one over the Church. And interpreting that also. 2. Ti. 1. he says: Paulus in praesenti per donum dei, prophetiae donum intellexit & functionem Episcopalem ad quam vocarat Timotheus dominus, sed per ministerium Pauli, qui ideò nunc▪ dicit donum illud in Timotheo esse per impositionem manuum suarum: Paul doth here understand by the gift of God, the gift of Prophecy, and the office of a Bishop, unto the which the Lord had called Timothy, but by the ministery of Paul, who for that cause now saith, that that gift was in Timothy by the imposition of his hands. And M. Caluine Institu. Cap. 8. Sect. 50. decideth this matter fully in these words: Sed Paulus ipse alibi se Caluine. etc. But Paul himself in another place, doth testify that he, and no more, did lay his hands upon Timothy: I admonish thee (saith he) that thou stir up the grace which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands. For where it is said in the other Epistle of the laying on of the hands of the eldership, I do not so take it, as though Paul spoke of the College of Elders: but in this name (videlicet presbyterij) I understand the ordination itself: as if he should say, endeavour thyself that the grace be not in vain, which thou hast received by the laying on of hands, when I ordained thee a minister. Again upon this. 1. Tim. 5. he saith thus: Impositio manuum ordinationem significat, signum enim pro re ipsa capitur, The imposition of hands signifieth the ordering, for the sign is taken for the thing itself. For what is it to appoint, but to call, elect, & ordain? Moreover that which Paul saith to Titus, Vt constituas. etc. doth expound this to Timothy, manus citò. etc. and therefore in deed I make no difference in this place, betwixt election, ordaining, and imposition of hands. Last of all (you say) that you answer, though this might agreed to Timothy alone. etc. If it agreed to Timothy alone, it must needs follow that it may agree to other Bishops also: for Timothy was a Bishop, as it shall be by better reason proved, than you Tract. 8. are able to show any to the contrary: This that you speak of his evangelistship, and of his superiority in that respect, is only spoken without reason or authority: but you shall have store of both to the contrary (God willing) when I come to that place. I am not so lavish of my witnesses, as you are of scornful and unseemly taunts and speeches. Both Ambrose and Chrysost. do not say, that Paul here warneth Timothy only to be circumspect, but to be circumspect in appointing of Ministers: and if it were not so, I doubt not, but that I should hear of it. The words are spoken to Timothy in respect that he was Bishop, neither hath the Apostle given any such like Admonition to any Church, in any of his Epistles, as I have before noted. And therefore Ambrose in his exposition of this place to Timothy (after that he had showed what circumspection the Apostle would have to be used in ordaining of Ministers) concludeth thus: Haec Episcopus custodiens, castum se exbibebit religioni: A Bishop observing Ambrose. these things, shall show himself pure in religion. Whereby he signifieth that this precept is properly pertaining to a Bishop. Chrysostom also in the. 1. Tim. 4. upon Chrysostom. these words, Come impositione manuum presbyterij, saith, Non de presbyteris hoc loco, sed de Episcopis loquitur▪ non enim profectò presbyteri ipsum ordinarunt: He speaketh not of priests in this place, but of Bishops, for certainly priests did not ordain him. And Oecolam Oecolampad. upon the same words: Presbyteros dicit Episcopos, neque enim presbyteri Episcopum ordinabant, He calleth Bishops Priests, for Priests did not ordain a Bishop. Whereby it plainly appeareth that these ancient fathers think this precept, manus citò ne cui imponas: lay thy hands suddenly on no man, to be given only to Timothy in the respect that he was Bishop, and therefore also to appertain unto Bishops only to ordain Ministers. Jerome upon that place to Titus saith: Audiant Episcopi qui habent constituendi Jerome. Presbyteros per urbes singulas potestatem, sub quali lege ecclesiasticae potestatis ordo teneatur: Let Bishops which have authority to appoint Ministers in every city, hear in what law the order of ecclesiastical authority doth consist. And a little after (speaking also of Bishops) Whereby it is manifest that those which contemning the Apostles rule, will not bestow the ecclesiastical degree upon any for desert, but for favour, to do against Christ. etc. Jerome here taketh the Bishop only to have authority to ordain and appoint Ministers. And Chrysostom upon the same place saith that Paul did Chrysost. in 1. Tit. those things himself that required greatest labour and travel: but left other things of honour and commendation to Titus, as ordaining of Bishops. So saith Theophilact likewise. Thus than you see how evidently both those places of scripture, and also these ancient fathers do overthrow that saying of the Admonition, that the right of ordering ministers doth at no hand appertain to a Bishop. And how manifestly also the same have justified that which I have said, that is, that Bishops have authority to admit ministers: for these be my very words. Now how corruptly you have dealt with me here in this place, I would wish The corrupt dealing of T. C. the indifferent Reader to consider: where I say, that Bishops have authority to admit ministers, you make me to say, that the election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time. And where I say, that these words of Paul to Timothy (manus citò ne cui imponas. etc.) be an admonition to Timothy, that he ought to be circumspect in appointing of ministers: you make the reader believe that I say, that it is a commandment given by Paul to Timothy, that the Bishop only should choose the minister. And where I say that Jerome and others do expound these words to Titus (ut constituas oppidatim. etc.) of the authority that Titus had in placing ministers in every Church: you report them, as though I should say, that Jerome proveth the right of the election of the minister to belong to the Bishop only: where I have ordaining, there you have election: And where I say, belongeth to the Bishop, there say you, belongeth to the Bishop only. Is this your sincerity? dare you accuse other men of corruption, being guilty of it yourself almost in every line? True it is, that I am persuaded that both Timothy and Titus, and consequently other Bishops, have authority to ordain and appoint ministers alone, which I have also partly proved before, and shall do partly hereafter, as I have occasion: But yet all men that be not blind may see, that I have affirmed no such thing in that part of my answer to the Admonition. I have always greatly esteemed the judgements & opinions of learned men, & howsoever you are persuaded of your own excellency, and dexterity of wit, yet am I content to submit myself to the opinions of other, to whom I am in no respect comparable: and then do I think myself to have reason sufficient, when I have good authority of the scriptures, and of learned writers. Aristotle spoke as a heathenish Philosopher, of such profane sciences, as be grounded not upon authority, but upon natural and humane reason: but that that we profess is of an other nature, for it is grounded upon authority, and for the authority sake to be believed, what reason soever there is to the contrary. And surely I marvel what you mean so often to quarrel with me, for the alleging of the authority of learned writers: except it be because you have not read so many yourself, or else that you would seem yourself to be the Author & inventor of those reasons, which you have borrowed of them: which in deed, is to win the praise of a good wit unto yourself, and to rob the learned writers of their just commendation. Therefore to answer you briefly in this matter, I think authority in divine matters to be the best Authority the best proof in divine matters. reason, whether it be of the scriptures themselves, or of such learned men as do rightly interpret the same. And I deem it to be much more honesty in using their authorities to express their names (that they may have their just commendation, and the matter the more credit) than using their authorities, & suppressing their names, vainly & arrogantly to usurp as my own, that which I have borrowed out of them. I know Master calvin's interpretation upon that place, & likewise what Musculus saith of the same in his Common places, titu. de electione ministrorum: but the words of the text be plain. And forasmuch as you make a distinction betwixt electing and ordaining, and say, that electing pertaineth to the people, and ordaining to the Bishop: Pag. 41. lin. 4. Likewise that the Apostle in this place speaketh of ordaining, and not of electing, you must of necessity confess, that by saying sicut tibi ordinaram, as I appointed Tit. 1. thee, he means only imposition of hands and prayer: as though he should say, ut constituas opidatìm presbyteros suut tibi ordinaram. sci. per impositionem manuum & orationem: That thou shouldst ordain Ministers in every city as I appointed thee (that is to say) by laying on of hands, and by prayer. And thus do learned Interpreters also expound this place: Neither is Musculus his meaning much otherwise, as it may appear to those that well consider his words: especially if your distinction betwixt electing & ordaining hold, and if Paul speak here of ordaining only: for in ordaining of Ministers the Apostles used laying on of hands as a ceremony, they prayed also Act. 14. and fasted. But if you will have the Apostle here to speak of electing also, then doth he expound himself, when he saith: Si quis est inculpatus. etc. If any by unreprovable, Tit. 1. the husband of one wife. etc. For how can you otherwise make those words aptly to hung together? Not doubt the Apostle gave Titus an especial charge in ordaining of Ministers, to have respect unto these qualities: of which charge he putteth him in mind when he saith, that he left him at Creta, to ordain Ministers in every city, as he appointed him, that is, such as be unreprovable. etc. I know there be some that expound this place thus also: that for as much as Paul when he left Titus in Creta, did will him to ordain Ministers in every city, now he putteth him in mind of the same by his letters, and willeth him to do according to his appointment, that is, to place Ministers in every city: and surely this interpretation hath good reason: for being absent, we commonly use to put them in mind by letters, to whom we have committed any thing to be done, of such things as we willed them to do, when we were present with them. I reverence Master Calvin as a singular man, and worthy instrument in Christ's Church: but I am not so wholly addicted unto him, that I will contemn other men's judgements that in divers points agree not fully with him, especially in the interpretation of some places of the Scripture, when as in my opinion they come nearer to the true meaning and sense of it in those points, than he doth. I did never cleave to Musculus, or to any other man so, that for his or their sakes I derogate any thing from such as be comparable to them, and have deserved singular commendation for their writings. If any one, or more learned men be of my judgement, though all be not, I am not ashamed to use their testimony in that point, though in some other points I do not consent unto them. If I either unjoint or rack in pieces from the rest, any word or sentence of Master calvin's, make it known, set it open, that I may justly bear the blame of it: but if I deal truly and faithfully with him, if I set down his own words, whole sentences, whole sections, and (as you say) whole leaves, without adding, altering, or diminishing, then how can you excuse your so untrue and unjust charging of me? Which, if it were not so common and usual with you, might the better be tolerated. Chapter. 7. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 46. Sect. 1 It is the general consent of all the learned fathers, that it pertaineth to the office of a Bishop to order and elect Ministers of the word. In this saith Jerome in Epist. ad Euagrium, A Bishop doth excel Jerome. all other Ministers, in that the ordering and appointing of Ministers doth properly pertain unto him. And yet these men say, that the right of ordering Ministers doth at no hand appertain to a Bishop. But for the order and manner of making Ministers, peruse the book made for that purpose, and as I said before, so I say again, if thou hast any judgement thou canst not but like it, and allow of it. T. C. Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. In the end you say it is the general consent of all the learned Fathers, that it belongeth to the Bishop to choose the Minister. Because you acquaint my ears with such bold and untrue affirmations, I can now the more patiently hear you thus baunting yourself, as though you had all the fathers by heart, and carried them about with you, wheresoever you went, whereas if a man would measure you by the skill in them, which you have showed here, he would hardly believe that you had read the tenth part of them. Are all the learned Fathers of that mind? I think then you would have been better advised, than to have set down but one, when as you know a matter in controversy will not be tried but by two or three witnesses, unless the Lord speak himself: and therefore you give me occasion to suspect that because you cite but * I had cited Am brose and Chrysostom before. one, you know of no more. Now let us see what your one witness will depose in this matter. And first of all, you have done more wisely than simply, in that you have altered Hieromes words. For where he saith, wherein doth a Bishop differ from an Elder, but only in ordaining: you say, a Bishop doth excel all other Ministers. etc. I report me here unto your conscience, whether you did not of purpose change Jerome his sentence, because you would not let the Reader understand what odds is between S. Hieromes Bishops in his days, and between our Lord Bishops. For then the Bishop had nothing above an Elder, or other mininister, but only the ordaining of the Minister. Now he hath a thousand Parishes, where the Minister hath but one. For the matters also of the substance of the ministery, the Bishop now excommunicateth, which the Minister can not. Besides divers other things, which are mere civil, which the Bishop doth, and which neither Bishop nor other Minister ought to do. I say, I report me to your conscience, whether you altered Hieromes words to this end, that you would keep this from the knowledge of your reader, or no. For answer to the place, it is an (a) It is your argument, it is none of mine: my words importetio such thing. evil argument to say, the Bishop had the ordaining of the Minister, Ergo he had the election of him. The contrary rather is a good argument: the Bishop had the ordaining of the Minister, therefore he had not the election of him. For ordination and election are divers (b) divers man bers of the whole may concur in one, and the self same person, though one of them can not be verified of an other members of one whole, which is the placing of the Pastor in his Church, and one member can not be verified of an other, as you can not say your foot is your hand. I will not deny, but that sometimes these words may be found confounded in Ecclesiastical writers, but I will show you also, that they are distinguished, and that the election pertaineth to the people, and (c) Then have you all this while strived in vain. ordaining unto the Bishop. Io. Whitgifte. Show me one Father that denieth that, which I here affirm: if you neither do, nor can, then may my skill in the Fathers, and reading also be as much (for any thing here to the contrary) as you think I would have it seem to be. But I will not follow you in your vain of gibing. I had cited before Chrysostom and Ambrose, for the same purpose, so that my witnesses be three, and therefore sufficient, except you will make some lawful exception against them: but because you may understand that I have plenty and store sufficient, I will rehearse but one sentence unto you of M. calvin's, in his Institu. Cap. 8. Ordinari Episcopos à suis Metropolitis, iubent Caluine. omnes veteres Synodi: All ancient Synods do command that Bishops should be ordained of their metropolitans. What cause should I have thus to report Hieromes words, to prove such difference betwixt the Bishop and other Ministers, seeing that doth not pertain to this place: and again, considering that I have at large proved the same in another place? Are you so dull of understanding as you would seem to be? do not both the words that go before, and those that follow also, declare my purpose in using that place? I do not translate Hieromes words, but I declare Hieromes meaning: and if the offence be in this, that I say a bishop doth excel all other ministers, then doth your own Author Illiricus (out of whom you have verbatim borrowed so much) and the other writers of the Centu. offend also: for thus he saith: Ordinatio ministrorum propria erat Episcopi, quo solo iure caeteris sacerdotibus praestantiorem esse Episcopum Centu. 4. ca 7. Hieronymus scripsit ad Euagrium: The ordaining of Ministers was proper unto the Bishop, by the which (as Jerome written unto Euagrius) a Bishop only excels other priests: out of whom as I have borrowed this word excel, so have you borrowed also this word only: for the words of Jerome be these: quid enim facit excepta ordinatione Hie. ad evag. Episcopus, quod presbyter non facit: What doth a Bishop, which a Minister doth not, except ordination? Whereby he manifestly affirmeth as much as I in this place require: that is, that the right of ordering Ministers doth appertain to the Bishop. The same also Chrysostom in the like words writeth in. 1. Ti. 3. Touching the difference betwixt a Bishop and a common minister, of the superiority of Bishops, and of their jurisdiction (for avoiding of confusion, where unto you here provoke me) I will speak when I come to that part of this book. You say that this is an evil argument, The Bishop hath the ordaining of the Minister, Election and ordinatio may concur in one person. Ergo he hath the election of him. etc. I think it is a very good argument, and that you are greatly deceived when you say election and ordination can not concur in one, and the self same person, although they may be distinguished the one from the other. Had not the Master of the College interest in the electing of you when you were choose to be fellow, and did he not also admit you? was there not then both election and admission in one man? And is not the like in other degrees of learning? Hath not he authority to elect, that hath authority to admit, that is, to ordain? or have you an example of any lawfully placed in the ministery, without the election and admission of the Bishop? Have you forgotten what you alleged T. C. forgetteth him silly. before out of the Council of Carthage, the Council of Toledo. etc. where it is sufficiently expressed, that the election of Ministers doth aswell pertain to the Bishops, as it doth to the people? And do not all the examples and places of scripture that you have alleged for your purpose, verify the same? Wherefore though election and ordination so differ the one from the other, that the one can not be said to be the other, yet may they well be joined together in one subject: as Prudence, justice, Temperance and Fortitude are, being notwithstanding members of one whole. But this hath deceived you, that you think, because divers members An oversight of T. C. of one whole, can not be confounded among themselves, and one verified of an other, therefore they may not meet together in one and the self same person, which is a gross oversight of yours: for take your own example: although your foot is not your hand, yet (I am sure) you would be sorry if one man might not have both feet and hands. But what need I labour any thing in proving this: for you yourself confess more than I affirmed, and as much as I require, that is, that election and ordination are sometimes confounded in Ecclesiastical writers: And therefore the one taken for the other. I do not deny but that sometimes also they be distinguished, although the Admonition in this place that I do now confute, doth utterly confound them. Chapter. 7. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 41. Sect. 1 Upon the sixte of the Acts, the gloss hath, that that which was done there of the twelve Apostles, in willing the brethren to look out fit men, was done to give us example, and must be observed in those that are ordained: for saith the gloss, the people must choose, and the Bishop must ordain. And that S. Jerome must be so understands, it appeareth not only that it hath been so expounded: but also it may be easily proved, for that S. Hieromes sentence and judgement appeareth in other places, that he would have nothing here done without the people, as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum, he (a) Hieromes words 〈◊〉. willeth that the people should have power and authority to choose their clerk and their Ministers. And in his Epistle to Neopotian, of the life of the clerks, he hath this distinction manifestly: (b) An untruth▪ proceeding of gross ignorance for these are Musculus his words, and not Hieromes. They run, saith he, unto the Bishop's suffragans, certain times of the year, and bringing some sum of money, they are anointed and ordained, being choose of none, and afterward, the Bishop without any lawful election, is choose in, of the Canons and Prebendaries only, without the knowledge of the people. And so you see, that although that S. Jerome saith, that the Bishop had the ordaining of the Ministers, yet he had not the election, for the ordaining was nothing else but an approving of the election, by putting on of hands, and consequently, having made your vaunt, that all the learned Fathers were of this judgement, that the Bishop should elect the Minister, you show not so much as one. Io. Whitgifte. What gloss saith so? where shall a man find it? or where is it? this is to large a scope that you take unto yourself. But I must pardon you, for Illiricus; of whom you have borrowed it, doth not otherwise quote the place. Nowebeit the words as Illiricus doth report them (which I think are taken out of glossa ordinaria) make nothing against any thing that I have said: for if you will thus reason: The Bishop must ordain, Ergo, he may not elect? I deny your argument, the reason I have showed before, one man may both ordain and elect. You have utterly falsified Hieromes words add Rusticum monachum, and much T. C. falsifieth Jerome. more declined from the true interpretation of them, than I would have suspected, especially seeing you would be thought to have entrapped me in the like not long before. For the words of Jerome be these: Cum ad perfectam aetatem veneris, si tamen Hier. add Rustic. Monachum. vita comes fuerit, & te vel populus, vel Pontifex civitatis in clerum elegerit, agito quae clerici sunt: When thou shalt come to perfect age, if thy life be answerable, and either the people, or the Bishop of the City shall choose thee into the Clergy, do such things as belong to a Clerk. He doth not here will that the people should have authority to choose their Clerks and their Ministers, as you say, but he saith unto Rusticus the Monk, that if either the people, or the Bishop of the City choose him to be Clerk, that then he must do those things that pertain to a Clerk. He saith, vel populus, vel Pontifex. etc. signifying that it was a thing indifferent to be choose either by the people, or by the Bishop: which maketh for me against you, for I say that a Bishop may choose a minister, and you deny it. The place that you allege out of the Epistle of Jerome, ad Nepotianum de vita T. C. fathereth that upon Jerome, which is not to be found in him, but is in Muscuins . Clericorum, is not to be found in Jerome. They be Master Musculus his own words, Titu. de verbi ministris. And because that he doth adjoin them to a place which he hath alleged out of Jerome, therefore you think them to be alleged of him as Hieromes words, which is a gross oversight, and argueth that you have not red the Authors themselves. O, how would you have triumphed if the like could have been espied in my book. There is a manifest place to the contrary in that Epistle to Nepotian, for thus he saith: Gloria patris est filius sapiens: Jerome ad Nepoti. gaudeat Episcopus judicio suo, cum tales Christo elegerit sacerdotes: A wise son is the glory of the father: let the Bishop rejoice and be glad of his judgement, when he hath choose unto Christ such Priests. Here might I triumph over you (both for corrupting of Hieromes words, and fathering that upon him which is not to be found in him) if I were disposed to deal with you so profanely in a divine and serious matter. Only this I wish, that by these gross oversights, you would learn one poyne of wisdom, that is, to be modest, and to know yourself. Chapter. 7. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 41. Sect. 2. Now will I show you the clean contrary of that you say, not that I gladly travail this ways, for if you had not constrained me, you should not have heard one voice this way. And would to God, that you would be content, especially when you meet with those that will be tried by the Scriptures, to seek no farther strength than they give you. But I am loath you should oppress the truth, and make all men afraid of it, by making them believe, that it is so desolate and forsaken of her friends, as you pretend. You confess S. Cyprian is against you herein, and he was a learned Father, and a Martyr also, which did not only use this form of election, but also taught it to be necessary, and commanded, and therefore me thinketh you should not have said all the learned Fathers without exception: you see also We (*) have seen it, finally to your credit. S. Jerome is of another judgement. S. Augustine also when he speaketh how he appointed Eradius to succeed him, showed, how it was the approved right and custom, that the whole Church should either choose or consent of their Bishop. And Ambrose says that that is truly and . Epistle. certainly a divine election to the office of a Bishop, which is made of that whole Church. Gregorius Nazianzene in the oration which he had at the death of his father, hath divers things which prove that the election of the minister pertained to the Church, and (a) This is an untruth, for he maketh no such confutation there. confuteth those things which should seem to hinder it. These were learned fathers, and yet thought not, that the election of the Pastor or Bishop, pertained to one man alone, but that the Church had also her interest, therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mind, you say they are. Io. Whitgifte. To Cyprian I have answered before: the people gave their consent in his time: Cyprian chooseth without the consent of the people. but yet was he bold sometime to elect clerks without them, as it appeareth lib. 2. epist. 5. which he writeth unto the Clergy and people, signifying unto them that it was not necessary to have their consent in choosing one Aurelius a Clerk: his words be these: In ordinandis clericis (fratres charissimi) solemus vos ante consulere, & mores ac merita Cypri. lib. 2. epist. 5. singulorum communi consilio ponderare. Sed expectanda non sunt testimonia humana, cum praecedunt divina suffragia etc. In the election of Clerks (beloved brethren) we were wont to take your advise before, and to weigh with common advise every man's manners and deserts: But the testimonies of men are not to be looked for, when divine suffrages have go before. In these words also it appeareth, what interest the people than had in elections, What interest the people had in Cyprians time. even to bear witness and to testify of the good life and conversation of such, as should be admitted into the Clergy. Jerome himself (whatsoever your counterfeit Jerome doth affirm) agreeth with me. Did not Illiricus tell you where Augustine speaketh these words, neither in what tome, nor in what book, nor in what epistle? Surely Augustine's works are far larger, than Musculus common places. But the treatise you mean of, is in his second tome among his epistles, in number 110. I would wish the learned reader to peruse it, then shall he soon perceive, how little it maketh for your purpose, and how aptly The testimony of Augustine cited by T. C. serveth not his purpose. it serveth mine. First he doth not show that it was the approved right and custom, that the whole Church should either choose, or consent of their Bishop: if he do, lay down his words: if you cannot, then hath Illiricus his collection deceived you. Secondly, although it may there appear that the people used to give their consents, yet Augustine both by his own act, and by the act of Severus bishop of Milleum; declareth that not to be so necessary, or such a right, but that it may be, upon just considerations, altered. Last of all, the words of Augustine be plain, which I will only set down and leave them to the consideration of the reader. Augustine showing his reasons why he did appoint Eradius to succeed him, says thus: scio post obitus episcoporum. etc. I know that Churches Aug. 2. to. 〈◊〉. use after the deaths of Bishops, to be much troubled through ambitious or contentious people: and it is my duty (so much as lieth in me) to provide for this city, lest that thing (whereof I have often times had experience to my grief) should happen. Then he showeth Contention in popular 〈◊〉 lections. what a stir there was a little before in the Church of Milleum about their Bishop, at what time he was sent for unto them, to appease the controversy, and declaring how in the end, they willingly embraced him, whom Severus their Bishop, Byshopsappoynt their successors. whilst he was alive, appointed unto them, he says, minus tamen aliquid factum erat, unde nonnulli. etc. Yet was there somewhat less done, whereby divers were offended, because my brother Severus thought it sufficient to appoint his successor in the presence of the Clergy, and spoke not thereof unto the people: by occasion whereof some grief was conceived. But what needs more words? it pleased God, the grief was expelled, joy came in place, and he was admitted Bishop, whom the predecessor had appointed. And it followeth immediately, Ergo ne aliqui de me querantur, voluntatem meam, quam credo dei esse, in omnium vestrum notitiam profero, presbyterum Eradium mibi successorem volo. etc. Therefore lest any should complain of me, I do here signify unto you all my will (which I think to be the will of God) I will have Eradius the minister to be my successor. etc. lastly he showeth how he himself was appointed Bishop, his predecessor being yet alive. Here it is to be noted, first, what stir began to be in Augustine's time about such Notes out of the restunome of Augustine. elections made by the people, which was the cause why he and others appointed unto themselves successors whilst they yet lived. Secondly, that Severus appointed to himself a successor, and thought it not necessary therein to require the consent of the people, which he would not have neglected if it had been either necessary or usual: Last of all, that Augustine pronounceth Eradius to be his successor in the presence of the people, that they might know his mind, but yet without ask their voices, although they did willingly of themselves consent: for that which afterward he requireth them to subscribe unto, was the petition that he made unto them, no more to trouble him with their civil matters, but that they would resort unto Eradius his successor for such causes. When the reader hath well considered these circumstances, which he shall better learn in the place itself, then let him judge how much it serveth for your turn. It may appear by that Epistle of Ambrose, what contention there was in Vercellensi Contention about popular elections . ecclesia (to the which he written) about the election of their Bishop, for they had been long destitute of one, as it there appeareth. Wherefore he exhorteth them to agree▪ meant, by the example of their predecessors, who so well agreed in choosing of Eusebius, whereupon he says, meritò vir tantus (meaning Eusebius) evasit, quem omnis elegit ecclesia: Ambro. epi. 82 meritò creditum, quòd divino esset electus judicio, quem onmes postulavissent. He worthily proved a notable man, whom the whole Church elected: he was rightly thought to be choose by god's appointment, whom every one desired. And who doubteth but that he is called of God, whom the whole Church without suit, without sinister affection, without intent to maintain factions and schisms, doth desire? this proves, that in Ambrose his time, in that Church the people desired their Bishop: which is not to be denied: but it also showeth that in the same time, there were marvelous contentions about such elections: which is to be considered. Nazianzene in that oration, hath not one argument to prove that the election of the minister Nazianzene performeth not that for the which he is avouched. Contention in popular elections. doth pertain to the Church, neither doth he confute those things which should seem to hinder it: for there is none alleged: only he declareth what a marvelous stir and sedition there was, at two sundry times, in the Church of Caesaria, about the election of the Bishop, what violence was used about the same, how the people were divided among themselves first, and after against their ministers. Likewise how they suddenly misliked their own choice, and would have disannulled it, if they had not been restrained of their wills by Nazianzene, his father. How the Emperor also, and the ruler of the city, taking part with the factious company, were by him pacified. Surely this maketh very little to the commendation of popular elections: Nay in the second contention that he there reciteth, declaring who were the especial authors of it, he says, Ecclesiae enim a malo erant immunes pariter & opulentiores & potentiores, sed omnis The common people especial authors of tumults in elections. impetus ac seditio inter plebem erat, ac precipuè vilissimam: For the churches (meaning the Clergy) were clear from that mischief, so were the richer sort also, and they which were of greater authority, but all the violence and sedition was among the common people, and among them especially, which were of the basest sort. And a little after, telling how his father pacified that sedition, he says, that his father written unto them, admonished them, p pulum, sacerdotes, necnon alios & quotquot qui ad gradum pertinebant, obtestabatur, eligebat, * calculum ferebat. etc. He humbly entreated the people, the priests, and others which pertained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to that order, he elected, choose. etc. What is here spoken that maketh not rather against you, than with you, no man denieth but that the people at this time had interest in the election of the minister in divers Churches, but that doth not prove that they aught to have so now, or that the Bishop hath no interest in the same: nay inconveniences of popular elections did then manifestly appear. There is not as yet one authority brought in to prove that the ordering of ministers T. C. reasoneth not ad idem, and defendeth not the Admonition. doth at no hand appertain to the bishop, which the Admonition affirmeth, and I have improved: but you have not replied unto it, keeping your old accustomed manner still, not to reason ad idem: for whereas you should conclude thus: the ordering of ministers doth at no hand pertain to a Bishop, you conclude thus: The election T. C. letteth slip the which he should prove and yet proveth not that which he would. The propositions that should have been defended of a Pastor or Bishop pertaineth not to one man alone. And yet you have not proved that, only you bring in examples of popular elections: and so have I brought in both examples, and authorities for the sole election of the Bishop: for they be both true. But you aught to prove these two propositions, if you will justify the Admonition: first, that popular elections aught to be perpetual: and secondly: that the ordaining of ministers doth at no hand pertain to the Bishop. But you subtly pass these over, and cast a mist before your reader's eyes, in heaping up, out of Illiricus peerless proofs. Chap. 7. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page. 41. Sect. 3 And that this election continued in the Church, until within a CCC. years, at what time there was more than Egyptiacall, and palpable darkness over the face of the whole earth, it may appear in a treatise of Flaccus Illiricus, which he calleth an addition unto his book that he entitleth the catalogue of the witnesses of truth, of whom I confess myself to have been (a) Not only much, but almost altogether. much helped in this matter of the choice of the Church touching the ministers: especially in the emperors edicts which are before cited. For lacking opportunities divers ways, I was contented somewhat to use the collection to my commodity, for the more speedy furtherance, and better proceeding in other matters, which I will leave of, because they may be there read of those that be learned, whom I will also refer to the sixt & seventh books, of Eusebius, where (b) An untruth: for there no such thing to be found in these books of▪ usebius. both the forms of the elections in those times are described, and where besides that the customs of the people's choice is set forth, there are examples of the election of the people and Clergy, which were confirmed by the (c) This is untrue, for Eusebi▪ us maketh not mention of confirmation of Elections by any Christian magistrate, nor of any Bishop of Constantinople. Christian magistrate, namely in the Bishop of Constantinople. And these may suffice for the other that have not that commodity of books, nor ability, nor skill to read them, being in a strange tongue, to know, that besides the institution of God in his word, this manner of electing did continued so long, as there was any sight of the knowledge of God in the Church of God. Io. Whitgifte. Illiricus his treatise that you speak of, doth nothing prejudice the cause that I have in hand, touching the authorities there alleged: for the question is not whether it hath been so or not, but whether it be convenient and profitable for the Church to have it so now. The reasons that Illiricus useth, beside his authorities, are of no great force to prove either necessity or conveniency, of such elections in this Church, as the state is now. You do well to confess the help that you had by Illiricus, for it could not have been The reply of T. C. consists of other men's collections. unespied, seeing you have almost verbatìm drawn all the authorities, and reasons that you use in this cause out of him. And truly I marvel with what face you can so opprobriously object unto me, other men's collections, and lack of reading the ancient writers, when as it is evident that your whole book consists of other men's notes, and collections: and that you yourself have scarce read any one of the Authors that you have alleged, 18. authorities at the lest you have borrowed of Illiricus, in this cause, besides certain other reasons. You refer the reader to the. 6. &. 7. book of Eusebius, where you say both the forms of elections in those tunes are described, and the customs of the people's choice set forth, and divers examples of the elections of the people and Clergy. etc. But the reader should have been something beholding to you, if you had named the Chapters as well as you have done the books: howbeit you do very politicly, to refer your readers to the whole books, which you are sure the most of them cannot, and of those that can, many will T. C. sendeth his reader to Eusebius for that which he shall not found in him. Euse. lib. 6. cap. 10. not peruse: but you have not dealt faithfully, for it is not to be found in any part of these two books, where the customs of the people's choice is set forth, or any example of the people and Clergies election confirmed by the Christian Magistrate. Nor yet any example of any Bishop of Constantinople. The contrary rather may be collected in sundry places. In the sixte Book Eusebius declareth that in the absence of Narcissus (because it was not known where he was) The governors of the Churches adjoining, ordain another Bishop. And after Narcissus return, because he was aged, the story says: dictum Alexandrum alterius paroeciae etc. That the ordinance of God called the said Alexander, being Bishop of another parish, to undertake that charge with Narcissus, according to a vision which was in the night revealed unto him: And in the next chapter he showeth how that those of Jerusalem received the said Bishop courteously, and would not suffer him to return to the place where he was Bishop before, they being admonished by a vision in the night, which signified unto them, that they should go out of the city gates and receive their Bishop appointed unto them by God: which thing they also did by the consent vicinorum Episcoporum, of the Bishops adjoining. What for me or manner of electing can you gather of this place? except you will admit visions, and call them from one Bishopric to another, to help some, that is grown in age. Neither is here any mention made of the election of the people: for this that he says Hierosolomitani went out. etc. it may rather be understanded of the ministers and deacons of Jerusalem, than of the people. In the. 7. book cap. 30. it appeareth that the ministers and Pastors had then authority to choose Bishops. Only in the. 6. book there is one example that may seem something to make for your purpose until it be well considered. It is of one Fabianus who was choose Bishop of Rome (as it is there reported) in this manner: cum fratres omnes Lib. 6. cap. 29. ad ordinandum futurum Episcopum in ecclesia congregati essent. etc. The report goeth (when as all the brethren were assembled together in the Church, to choose him which should be Bishop, and many of them determined of divers worthy and notable men, Fabianus himself being present with the rest, and no man minding to choose him, that a dove falling from above (like as the holy ghost descended upon our saviour in likeness of a dove) did light upon his head, and so the whole people being with one spirit much moved, did together with great joy and with one consent proclaim him worthy to be Bishop, and immediately took him, and placed him in the bishops seat. Here we may learn that Fabianus was miraculously choose to his Bishopric, and that the people moved with this miracle did burst out into commendation of him, and thought him worthy to be Bishop: doth it therefore follow that they elected him? for it may be doubted whether those brethren that came together to ordain the Bishop, were of the Clergy, or of the people. It is not denied but at this time the people did sometimes, and in some places give their consents in the electing of their Bishop: yet doth not this example prove it, being (as it may appear) extraordinary: neither is there in these two books any form of such elections described, nor any customs of the people's choice set forth: much less any examples of the elections of the people and clergy which were confirmed by the Christian Magistrate, as you affirm. And surely I marvel what you mean to speak of any such confirmation by the Christian magistrate, seeing it is manifest, that as yet, there was no Christian Magistrate mentioned by Eusebius, except only one Philip Emperor of Rome, of whom he speaketh very little: and maketh no mention of any elections made in his time: so far off is he, from expressing examples of any confirmation of such elections, by any christian magistrate. Namely (you say) in the Bishop of Constantinople, A gross overight of T. C. & yet there is no such example in either of those books, not not so much as one word of any Bishop of Constantinople. And that it may appear how far you are overseen in this place, you shall understand that the last Emperor of whom Eusebius maketh any mention in these books, is Dioclesian, who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Bishop of Constantinople was confirmed above. 40. years before Constantinople was. Chap. 7. the. sixte. Division. T. C. Page. 42. Lin. 2. &. Sect. 1 I will add only one place, which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes. etc. bitter than the rest, and cut the quick more near, you shall not be angry with me, but first with those that were the Authors of it, and then with him that written it. Eusebius in the sixth book speaking of Origen, which was admitted not of one Bishop, but of many Bishops to teach, showeth how the Bishops were reprehended by the Bishop of Alexandria called Demetrius, because they had admitted him (a) An untruth as will appear. without the election of the Presbytery of the Church, which were the chief in the election in every Church, and unto the which the Churches did commit the government of themselves in every several town and city, and says that it hath not been herded, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is, that the lay men should teach when the Bishops were present. Whereby it is evident, that he counted him (b) Untruth, for O gea was yet a lay man, and not admitted minister by any, a lay man which was only admitted by the Bishops, although they were many, not being first elected by the presbytery of that Church, whereof he was the teacher. Io. Whitgifte. The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vain brags. But soft man awhile, you do but dream: for there is no such matter in that book of Eusebius. Did you never hear tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others, but woundeth himself. labouring to smite at another, have deadly wounded themselves? I believe it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharp place, and then shall not I need to be angry with you: you shall have more cause to chafe with yourself. For answer to the place: I say it is altogether by you falsified, and most untruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleged: the only thing that Demetrius found fault with, was because Origen being a lay man did teach in the Church, Bishops being present: for he saith: it was never herded that lay men should teach in the churches, Bishops being present. But what is said to this, nescimus quomodò. etc. wherein he affirmeth (we know not how) that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca true: seeing there may be found divers, who when they were able to profit the brethren, and that the holy Bishops had exhorted them to instruct the people, did after this sort, teach in the Church. As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon: and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus: and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus, which were all blessed brethren: And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places, which we know not of. Yea Demetrius himself suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that book: and even in the end of the same chapter He returneth to Alexandria, and doth again employ himself to his accustomed diligence in teaching. But because this place is so confidently avouched, and so untruly, I will set it down as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen says thus: In the mean time (by reason of a great war begun in that city) leving Alexandria, and thinking that he could not safely abide in Egypt, he went into Palestina, and remained at Caesaria, where also he was requested of the Bishops of that country, that he would dispute, and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church, when as yet he was not ordained minister. The which thing is hereby manifest, for that Alexander the Bishop of Jerusalem, and Theoctistus Bishop of Caesaria, writing to Demetrius of him, do after this sort tender an account of that deed: Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters, that it was never herded of, neither yet at any time seen, that lay men did teach in the Church, Bishops being present: wherein (we know not how) he affirmeth that thing which is not true. etc. As it is set down before. What one word is there here that showeth how the Bishops were reprehended by the Bishop of Alexandria called Demetrius, because they had admitted Origen, without the election of the presbytery of the Church, which were the chief in the election in every Church, and unto the which the Churches did commit the government of themselves in every several town and city. etc. as you affirm? Nay is there any thing sounding that way? the only cause why Demetrius reproveth them (as I have said) is, because they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Church, being as yet Origen was then indeed a lay man, but a lay man. And yet you see how Demetrius is reproved for that also, & how by sundry examples it is there showed, that it is no rare thing for a lay man, to interpret the scriptures in the Church, the Bishop being present, if he be there unto called by the Bishop. Is this your bitter place? is this that terrible cutter? Indeed, it maketh your doings uncyphered, and shrewdly woundeth you, if you can well consider it. But to make the matter yet more plain. Euseb. in the same book and. 23. chapter showeth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae, ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis: was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Bishops of that country. The which thing Demetrius misliked also, not for any just cause, but only of malice: for although Demetrius at the first esteemed well of Origen, and bore good will unto him, yet afterward when he see him marvelously to prospero, and to become very famous and well accounted of, he then sought means, not only to discredit him, but those also which had preferred him to the ministery: laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy, (that is, gelding of himself) as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You see therefore how untruly you have reported Eusebius, and that there is no such cause by him expressed, why Demetrius reproved the Bishops, as you feign to be. But I partly smell your meaning, which I suppose to be this: that all we which are admitted into the ministery by the Bishops, without your presbytery, are but lay men: whereby you would insinuate, that all those which have been baptized by us, are not baptized: because you say, that it is of the substance or being of baptism, whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1 he be minister or no that ministereth that sacrament, Pag. 114. And this is that mystery, which you and your fellows will not as yet openly utter, but craftily dissemble, until you see better opportunity. The truth is, your intent is rebaptisation, and flat Anabaytisme. But I have declared sufficiently the vanity of your collection in this place: and the weakness of your reasons touching this matter, where you have given me more especial occasion to speak of it. Tract. 9 Chap. 7. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seeing then that the scripture doth teach this order, that there should be no minister thrust upon the Church, but by the consent thereof, and reason persuadeth that ways, and the use of the Church hath been so from time to time: both in peace and in time of persecution, both under tyrants, and godly princes, it cannot be without the high displeasure of almighty God, the great hurt and sore oppression of the church, that one man should take this unto him, which pertaineth to so many, or one minister which pertaineth to more than one, especially, where the advise of learned ministers may concur with the people's election or consent. Now if any man will rise up and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder, and by this means children, boys, and women should have their voices: which is unseemly, all men understand that where the election is most freest, and most general, yet only they have to do, which are heads of families, and that this is but a mere cavil to bring the truth in hatred, which is unworthy to be answered, and requireth rather a Censor, than a disputer to suppress it. Io. Whitgifte. The scripture doth not teach any such order: it hath examples to the contrary: it presribeth herein no certain rule to be perpetual: there is better reason to the contrary, if the diversity of the time and other circumstances be considered: the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places used one form and manner of election: not in the Apostles time, as it hath been declared: wherefore the Church is neither hurt, nor oppressed, if the godly Magistrate alone do appoint in it Bishops, and take such order for admitting other inferior Pastors, as shall be thought to him most convenient: Neither is God displeased with them for so doing, if they seek his glory therein, the godly peace and quietness of the Church, and have respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers. But he is greatly displeased with those, that make a necessity where none is, and trouble the Churches with their own devices, and make contention for external matters. ¶ It is not necessary that the people should have interest in the election of ministers, but the contrary is convenient. Chap. 8. the. 1. Division. Io. Whitgifte. Now that you have uttered all your authorities and reasons, to prove that the people aught to have interest in the electing of their ministers, & that I have sufficiently (I trust) answered the same: Let it not be troublesome unto you, if summarily I collect my reasons that move me to think the contrary. 1. And first I will prove that there is no certain form of electing prescribed in Scripture, but that the same is left free for the Churches to appoint, as shall be thought most convenient for their states and times. 2. Secondly, I will show, that there hath been great diversity from time to time, used in the Church, touching elections, and that the people at all times, and in all places, have not been admitted thereunto. 3. Last of all, I will set down the reasons why the people have been debarred from such elections, and why they aught still so to be. Touching the first, these be my reasons. 1. christ (whose facts and deeds we aught especially to follow) did of himself Math. 10. Luke. 10. alone, without the consent of any, call, and choose his Apostles, and likewise the 70. disciples whom he sent to preach. 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this manner and form: for they presented two, and the one of them was choose by lot. 3. In the. 6. of the Acts, they clean altered this also: for the people presented seven to the Apostles, and they were all choose without lots, the Apostles also laid on their hands upon them. 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this form is likewise changed, for Paul and Bar abas ordained ministers in every city, without either presentment by the people, or casting of lots. 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manifest, that Paul and Barnabas were sent only by the Prophets and Doctors, without any consent of the people, either given or required: read the beginning of the Chapter, it is plain enough of itself. 6. Paul sent Timothy and Titus, and gave them authority to ordain other: 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certain, that here is no prescript manner and form appointed, to be observed for ever: seeing that the Apostles themselves did not bind or tie themselves to any such rule: which both M. Bullinger, Zuinglius, and Beza, do likewise confess, as I have before declared. And therefore M. Caluine (as I told you before) saith, that of that example in the first of the Acts no certain rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers. And M. Beza is of the same judgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I have likewise declared before. And in that book of confession and. 5. Chapter, he hath this saying worthy to be noted: Because the multitude is for the most part ignorant and intractable, and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater part doth oftentimes prevail against the better, not in a popular state lawfully appointed, are all things committed to the unbridled multitude: but certain Magistrates are appointed by the consent of the people, to rule and govern them: if this wisdom be in worldly affairs, much more is a moderation to be had in those matters, wherein men be oftentimes blinded. Neither is there any cause why any man of sound judgement should exclaim that in such matters there is no place for policy, except he can show this policy whereof I speak, to be repugnant to the word of God, which I think he can not: Hitherto M. Beza: and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers. And a little after he saith, that we must not always look what the Apostles did in Ecclesiastical policy, Idem. or in the government of the Church, seeing there is so great diversity of circumstances, that a man can not without preposterous zeal reduce all things in all places and times, to one and the same form: but it is sufficient, if respect be had to their end and purpose, which is not variable, and that manner and form used which leadeth thereunto. etc. Whereupon also I conclude, that in the Scriptures there is no certain form prescribed The end of the Apostles in ecclesiastical policy, must be regar dead, and not their deeds. Ibidem. of electing ministers: and that the doings of the Apostles in that matter, are not at all times of necessity to be followed: but it is sufficient to respect their end and purpose, that is, that there be meet ministers: and therefore M. Beza saith, No man may here prescribe any certain rule, but if the conscience be good, it is an easy matter to determine what is most expedient for time, place, and other circumstances. Chap. 8. the second Division. 2 Touching the second, that is for the diversities of elections afterward used in That the people were not always admitted to the election of ministers. Eusebius. Zuinglius. Cyp jan. Concil. Ancy. Antiochen. Laodicen. Can. Apost. 1. the Church, and that the people were not always admitted to the same, I refer you to that which hath been spoken before, out of Eusebius and Zuinglius, of the Apostles appointing of james to be Bishop of Jerusalem: of Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 4. where he plainly confesseth, that, electing by the people was not then general, in that he sayeth, Et fe è per provincias universas tenetur, and doth the contrary himself in choosing one Aurelius without the consent of the people Lib. 2. Epist 5. Likewise of the 18. Can. of the Council of Ancyrane. 18. Canon of the Council of Antioch. 12. and 13. Can. Con. Lao diceni: All which Canons and Counsels I have alleged before. In the first of the Canons attributed to the Apostles, it is decreed that a Bishop should be ordained of two or three Bishops: and the Greek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. In the second of the same Canons, the ordaining of Priests, Deacons, and other clerks is committed to the Bishop alone, & the Greek word there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Can. 2. likewise. In the. 35. or. 36. of the same Canons, it plainly appeareth, that Bishops were choose Can. 35. 36. without the consent of the people. In the. 4. Canon of the Council of Nice, the election of Bishops is appointed only Council Nicanun. Can. 4 Antioch. 19 to Bishops. It appeareth plainly in the. 19 ca Con. Antigona cheni, that only the Metropolitan and other ministers had interest in the ordeinnig and apointing of Bishops. It is manifest by Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 8. and 23. that Origen was admitted and ordained Eus. li. 6. ca 8. 23. Hieronymus Epist. add Nepotian. Distinct. 62. Nulla. minister only by Bishops. Jerome in his Epistle ad Nepotianum, in the words before recited, signifieth that the election of Priests doth lordship rteyne to the Bishop. Gratian distinct. 62. hath this Canon made by Leo who was Bishop of Rome. Nulla ratio s it. etc. No reason permitteth that they should be accounted amongst the Bishops, which are neither choose of the Clerks, nor desired of the people, nor consecrated of the Bishops of that province, with the judgement and allowance of the Metropolitan. The Gloss expounding what this is to be desired of the people, saith, that it is to give testimony unto them. And no man denieth but that such as are to be admitted into the ministery, aught to have a testimony of their life & conversation, and that it should be lawful for any man to except against them, if there be just cause: but yet the judgement not to rest in the people. And distinct. 6 . there is this law, Laici nullo modo se debent inhis rear electioni, The lay Distinct. 63. Laici. people aught by no means to thrust themselves into the election, or to meddle with the election. There are certain Canons collected out of the gréek Synods by Martin Bracaren. Episco. and they are to be found to. Conci. 2. the first of the Canons is this, the Tom. 2. Con. which Gratian also hath distinct. 63. Non licet populo. etc. It is not lawful for the people, to make the election of them which are preferred to priesthood: but it is in the judgement of the Bishops, that they should prove him, which is to be ordained, whether he be instructed in the word, and in faith, and in spiritual conversation. The same may be also proved by the 2. and. 3. Canons following In the same distinc. there is this Canon taken out of the. 8. general Council. Consecrationes & promotiones. etc. This holy and general Council agreeing with former Counsels, hath decreed and enacted, that the consecrations and promotions of Bishops should be made by the election of the Clergy, and by the decree and College of the Bishops. Theodoret lib. 4. cap. 5. saith, that when Auxentius being an Arian, was deprived Theod. lib. 4. cap. . of the Bishopric of Milan, Valentinian the Emperor called together the Bishops, and willed them to place such a one in that bishopric, as he might safely commit himself unto. etc. and when as they desired the Emperor that he himself would choose one whom he thought meet, the Emperor told them again, that it were much better for them to elect one, because they were best able to judge of his metenesse. And although the people, being divided tumultuously requested the Bishops, some for one, some for an other, and at the length all desired to have Ambrose, yet it may evidently appear, that the interest of the election, was in the Bishops, and the confirmation and allowing of the same in the Emperor. And in that the Bishops would have committed the whole matter to the Emperor, it may appear, that it greatly skilleth not who do choose, so that such be choose as be fit for the place. In the. 63. distinct. of Gratian, it is also to be seen, that sometime the election Distinct. 6 . and allowing of Bishops was wholly given to the Emperor, as we may read in the decree of Adrian the Pope there mentioned: and in the decree of Leo the first, where he showeth, how that the dissensions, heresies, and schisms that were in the Church, was the cause why that both the election of the Roman Bishop, and of other also was committed to the Emperor. Whereby it is evident, thal the people have not at all times, nor in all places had interest in the elections of ministers. I know that Gratian in the same distinction saith as much in the behalf of the people, but thereby we may gather, that this election hath been variable, and from time to time used according to the place, time, and people. For further proof hereof, I could recite the variety that now is, and heretofore also hath been, even in reform Churches, but to avoid tediousness, I refer that to every man's own search. This is most certain, that the form prescribed in the second Admonition, and in this Reply of T. C. also, if it be considered, will appear to have in it nihil Apostolicum, nothing Apostolical, but to differ as much from any form that was then used, as this doth that we retain in the Church of England at this day, and a great deal more. Chap. 8. the. 3. Division. The reasons why the people have been secluded from such elections, and so aught Why the people have been, & now aught to be debarred from the election. to be, are these. 1. first, the marvelous contentions that have been in such kind of elections, by the sinister affections of the people, being easily moved to division and parts taking, upon every light occasion. Examples whereof there be infinite almost in every Contention about the election of ministers. election, as it may enidently appear to every one, that hath but lightly run over any Ecclesiastical history. When Damasus was choose Bishop of Rome, there was one Vrsicinus a Deacon Plat. in vita Damasi. set up against him, and the contention was so vehement betwixt them, and the rage of the people so intemperate, that they fallen from voices to blows, in somuch that there was many slain, even in the place of election. What sedition was there moved in the election of Boniface the second, when Platina. Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishopric, the people were so divided, that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus. The like brawl was in the elections of Conon, Sergius, Paulus. 1. Constantinus, Platina. and almost in every election made in that seat: as it is evident in such stories, as especially entreat of the lives of the Bishops of Rome. The like stir there hath been in other places also, especially after that the churches were divided with heresies and sects. At Constantinople, after the death of Alexander their Bishop, there was a marvelous uproar for his successor, some desiring to have Paul a Catholic, and some Macedonius an Arrian: this contention was so vehement, that the whole city was disturbed and many slain on both parties, yea even the emperors officer that was sent to appease it. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. &. 7. The strife that was in the same place, after the death of Atticus, (Philip, Prochis, and Sisinius, striving for the Bishopric at one time) Socrates testifieth lib. 7. cap. 26. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. &. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9 the same doth he writ also to have been betwixt Philip and Prochis, after the deprivation of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35. After Endoxius removed from Antioch to Constantinople, there was in Antioch great strife for a successor, as the same Sozo showeth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these words: as in such things it cometh to pass, that there are divers contentions and seditions betwixt the Clergy and betwixt the people. Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9 declareth the like tumults to have been about the election of Flavianus: and he addeth, atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò, non propter fidem sed propter Episcopos scinditur. And so the Church of Antioch is again divided, not for matters of faith, but for their Bishops. I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funeral oration at the burial of his father, Nazianzene what great trouble and danger was at Cesaria in his time, about the election of their Bishops. The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why August in. tom. 2. epi. 110. both he and his predecessor in their life times, did provide to themselves successors, as it is there manifest. Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus, about the election Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11. of their Bishop, the people being divided into sundry factions, in so much that Chrysostom was himself enforced to appoint unto them one Heraclis his Deacon. The same author lib. 7. cap. 7. testifieth the like contention to have been in Alexandria, Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5. whilst some desired Timothy an Archdeacon, othersome cyril. Euagrius li. 2. ca 5. writeth thus: Cum antem bic Proterius. etc. when this Proterius was placed in the bishops seat of Alexandria, there arose a great and intolerable tumult among the people, which were tossed with divers sentences: for (as it often falls out in such cases) some would have Dioscorus again: others stuck stoutly to Proterius, so that many incurable mischieses were committed. For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth, that the governor of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria, and see the people wholly to set themselves against the magistrates, and that when the garrison of soldiers would have kept back the sedition, they beat them back with stones into the temple, which was in times past called the temple of Serapis: then the people coming thither with speed, took the temple and burned the soldiers quick. But whenthe Emperor understood hereof, he sent thither two thousand new soldiers, who having a prosperous wind & passage, arrived the sixt day after at the great city of Alexandria, and so raged against the wives and daughters of the men of Alexandria, that much more mischief was now wrought than before. To what further inconvenience this intolerable contention came afterwards, the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8. the people at large, and declareth how easily they are moved to contentions and tumultuous dealing, how willingly led by any factious person that pretendeth liberty. etc. In the end he showeth how villainously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Bishop. What should I speak of that hurlyburly that was in Milans before the election Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio. of Ambrose, whereof Theodo. speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6. I shall desire the learned reader to peruse Chrysostom in the. 3. book that he writeth de sacerdotio where he speaketh of this matter plentifully, & declareth the marvelous partiality & the untolerable contentions that the people used, & was the cause of, in such elections. If I were disposed to heap up examples, I could fill a large volume, but these (being almost in the best time of the Church, under Christian Princes) manifestly declare what intolerable inconvenience ensueth such elections, as are committed to the people, especially in these matters. 2 My second reason is, that if such elections should be committed to the people, the evil Magistrate (who hath the chief government of the Church, and to whom the especial care of religion doth appertain) should not be able to procure such reformation, nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion, as he is, when he hath himself the placing of Bishops, and such as be the chief of the Clergy: for the people The election of ministers by the people, an impediment to the civil magistrate in ecclesiastical matters. (who are commonly be t to novelties, and to factions, and most ready to receive that doctrine that seemeth to be contrary to the present state, and that enelineth to liberty) would usually elect such as would feed their humours: So that the Prince neither should have quiet government, neither could be able to preserve the peace of the Church, nor yet to plant that religion, that he in conscience is persuaded to be ncere. As for the authority of isalowing their elections, which you give unto him, it is but an intolerable trouble, and besides that he shall not understand their doings: or if he doth, yet may he not deprive them of their liberty in choosing, so that you make his authority in effect nothing. Moreover his Churches and whole kingdom should be filled with Anabaptists, Libertines, Papists, Puritans, and an hundredth sects mother, or ever he were ware: for who will complain of him, whom the people do phansi , be he never so unmeet a person? 3 My third reason is taken out of your own book Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose, the inferior in gifts should be judge of the superior. Pag. 25. lin 3.. Archdeacon may not be judge of the aptness and ableness of the Pastor, because, he is inferior to the Pastor, both in calling and gifts: which if it be true, then surely may not the people have any thing to do in the election of the Pastor, being in all respects much more inferior unto him, than the Archdeacon is: for to have interest in electing, is to be admitted to judge of his meetness and aptness, that is to be admitted. 4 It would be a cause why many Churches should be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors, etc Pastors than is convenient, for if an unmeet man were choose, and an appeal made to the next Pastors, and from them to the next Synod provincial, and then the parishioners that will not yield, excommunicated, and after excommunication complained of to the Prince, and then driven to a new election and in the same peradventure as wayward as they were before: whilst I say, all this were in doing (besides the marvelous schisms, contentions, brawling, and hatred, that must of necessity in the mean time be among them) two or three years might soon be spent: for all these things cannot be in due order well done in less time) all which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor, & burn with those mischiefs that I have before recited. 5 It would make the government of the Church popular, which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular government. of government that can be. For it is true that M. Caluine says, cap. 20. Instit. Proclivis est à regno. etc. The fall from a kingdom into a tyranny is very ready, and the change from the government of the best, into the Factions of a few is not much harder: but the fall from a popular state into a sedition, is of all other most easy. 6 The people (as I have said before) through affection and want of judgement are The people easily led by affection. easily brought by ambitious people to give their consent to unworthy men: they are soon moved by the request of their friends, and of such as they either fear or love, to do anything, as may appear in sundry things committed unto them of great importance: yea sometime when by oath they are bond to deal without all affection, or partiality. 7 By this means they would think to have their pastor bond unto them, so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty. they would take it disdainfully to be reproved by him, according as his duty would require Again the pastor considering their good will in preferring of him, would not so freely 〈◊〉 them, nor willingly displease them. 8 To conclude, the people are for the most part rude and ignorant, careless also in The people unfit to be judges in such cases. Chrys. 2. in. 〈◊〉 such matters, and more me te to be ruled, than to rule: For as Chrysostom de eth, Populus est quiddam tumultus, etc. The people is a certain thing full of tumult and stirs, consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly, oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary judgement, like to the waves of the sea. etc. These and a great number more reasons may be alleged, why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors: and yet do I not so utterly seclude them from such elections: but that if they have any thing to object against him that is to be ordained, they might be herded: which order is prescribed in the book of making ministers: and that is asmuch as can be required. Although I do not condemn those Churches, wherein this is safely committed unto them: for I only speak of the present estate of this Church of England. The reason why I do think the Bishops to be the fittest to have both the allowing and ordaining of such as are to be ministers, I have expressed in my answer to the Admonition. And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted. Of ministers having no pastoral charge, of ceremonies used in ordaining ministers: of Apostles, Evangelists and Prophets. Tract. 4. Of ministers admitted, a place being not void. Chap. 1. The first Division. The Admonition. The seventh. Then none admitted to the ministery, but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was void afore hand, to which he should be called. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO prove this you cite in the margin the first of the Acts, where it is declared how Mathias was choose in the place of judas, to make up the number of the. xij. Apostles. Surely this is but a slender reason: Mathias was choose into the place of judas, Ergo, no man must be admitted into the ministery, except a place before hand be void, to the which he should be called. Every mean sophister will laugh at the childishness of this argument. Mathias was choose to be an Apostle, and not to any certain cure, and therefore this example proveth nothing. T. C. Page. 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you would seem to make it, for as the. xij. place was to Mathias, so is a certain Church unto a Pastor or Minister, & as the Apostles ordained none unto that place before it was void, so aught not the Bishop ordain any until there be a Church void and destitute of a pastor. And as the Apostles ordained not any Apostle, further than they had testimony Act. . . of the word of God, as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election, so aught no Bishop ordain any to any function, which is not in the scripture appointed. But there are by the word of God, at this time no ordinary ministers Ecclesiastical, which be not local, and tied to one congregation, therefore this sending abroad of ministers which have no places, is unlawful. Io. Whitgifte. As their reason is far from good reason, so are your similitudes far from proving the same: & the Logicians say, Soluitur sunilitudo, ostensa dissimilitudine. First, there is great difference betwixt the office of an Apostle, and the office of a Pastor, as you must needs confess. Then is there also difference in the number: for the Apostles which were choose of Christ to be witnesses of his Resurrection, were twelve, and therefore the number certain: but the number of Preachers and Pastors is not limited, but the more the better: Thirdly, there was one choose in the place of judas, that the Scripture might be fulfilled as Peter says Act. 1. but there is no such thing in the election of Pastors & other ministers. Moreover it was the twelfth place in number that Mathias was choose unto, and not any local place, such as pastors take charge of. Wherefore except you can make a certain number, and no certain number: a local prescript and definite cure, and a general charge without prescription of any certain place, all one, or at the lest very like: this argument, Mathias was choose into the place of judas: ergo, no man must be admitted into the ministery, except he have a Cure, must of necessity be a very childish and fond argument. And how oft shall I tell you, that to reason àfacto ad ius, of an example to make a general rule, is a very unskilful kind of rasoning, except there be some general rule and commandment according to that example. But was not Paul added to the number of the Apostles, though there were no Some admitted to the ministery, a place being not void. place void? Were not also Barnabas Act. 14. Epaphroditus Phil. 2. Andronicus and junia, Rom. 16. called Apostles? I might therefore as well reason thus, Paul, Barnabas. etc. were called to be Apostles when there was no place void, Ergo some may be called to the preaching of the Gospel, though they have no certain cure. But let us see how you will justify this assertion, that there are no ordinary ministers ecclesiastical, which be not local, and tied to one congregation. etc. For I utterly deny it, in that sense that you speak it. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. T. C. Page. 42. Sect. 5. And that it may the better appear, that those functions do only remain, which are appointed to one certain place, and that the Reader may have the clearer and plainer understanding of all this matter, all the whole ecclesiastical function may be well divided: first into extraordinary, or those that endured for a time, and into ordinary, which are perpetual. Of the first sort are the Apostles, and Evangelists, which the Lord used for a time, as it were, for chief Masons, and principal builders of his Church, as well to say the foundations of Churches where none were as also to advance them to such forwardness and height, until there might be got, for the finishing of the building and house of the Church, fit pastors, Elders, and Deacons. And that being done, they went from those places into others, which thing may be perceived by the continual story of the Acts of the Apostles, and by divers sentences which are found in the Epistles of S. Paul. And therefore also when the Churches have been by Antichrist even razed from the foundations, God hath stirred up Evangelists, even immediately by his spirit, without any calling of men, to restore his Churches again: of which sort was Master Wickli e in our Country, M. Hus, and Jerome of prague in Bohemia, Luther and Zuinglius in Germany. etc. And after this sort God may at his good pleasure work, when he purposeth to set in his Gospel in any nation, where the whole face of the earth is covered with the darkness of ignorance, and want of the knowledge of God. Io. Whitgifte. Although you can not warrant by the Scriptures this distinction of ordinary and In what respect the Apostolical function was extraordinary. extraordinary ecclesiastical functions, yet I think the Apostolical function was extraordinary, in respect that it had for the time certain especial properties, as to bear witness of the resurrection of Christ, and of his ascension, which they did see with their eyes: also to plant & to found Churches: Likewise to go throughout the whole world. These I say were temporal and extraordinary, and so was the Apostleship in this respect, but yet ordinary in respect of their chief function, which was to preach the Gospel, and to govern the Churches which they had planted. Likewise Evangelists have an ordinary function, neither is there any cause why it should be called a temporal office, but only in respect of writing the Gospel, for there is none that thinketh the office of preaching to be either extraordinary or temporal. But I pray you let me ask you one question, why should not the office of Seniors be aswell extraordinary and temporal, as the office of an Apostle, or an Evangelist? for as you say: that the Apostleship and evangelistship remained, until there might be got for the finishing of the building and house of the Church fit Pastors. etc. So say I, that the office of Seniors and Elders might remain in the Church, until there were christian Princes and Magistrates, by whom the people of God might be kept in peace and quietness, and the Churches of Christ more perfectly governed. And well assured I am, that there are as good reasons for this, as there are for the other. For as in the place of the Apostles, Evangelists. etc. are succéeded Bishops, Pastors, Doctors: so I may say, that in the place of Elders and Seniors, are come Christian Princes and Magistrates. As for this part of the Apostles function, to visit such Churches as were before planted, and to provide that such were placed in them, as were virtuous and godly Pastors: I know it remaineth still, and is one of the chief parts of What part of the Apostles function remaineth. the Bishop's function, as shall hereafter more at large appear. I grant that Master Hus, Jerome of prague, etc. were stirred up even by God, to preach his truth, and open the door of his word again, yet were they called to some function of the Church before, although that function were for the most part, wicked, and the Church almost wholly corrupted with superstition and errors: But why you should rather call them Evangelists, than Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, or Doctors, I know not: especially seeing some of them had ordinary charges. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 1 Of this sort of extraordinary functions, are the Prophets also, which besides a singular dexterity, and readiness of expounding the Scriptures, had also the gift of telling things to come, which, because it is not now ordinarily, I think there is none will deny, but it is an extraordinary calling, for the other two of the Apostles and Evangelists, it shall appear more at large hereafter (by occasion given by M. Doctor) that they are but for a time. Io. Whitgifte. If you mean Prophets, in the respect of the gift of telling things to come, Act. 11. such as Agabus was, then be they temporal, but yet ordinary for the time wherein Prophets in some respect ordinary. they were: But if you mean Prophets in respect of their dexterity and readiness in expounding the Scriptures, such as Barnabas was, and Simon, Lucius, Act. 13. etc. and Saul. Likewise such as judas and Silas. Acts. 15. and such as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paul speaketh of. 1. Corinth. 14. I see no cause why either the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary, or the office and gift temporal, except you have a liberty to make temporal and perpetual, ordinary and extraordinary, what you please. But seeing you would have all things proved by Scripture, I pray you prove this that you have said, either of the Apostles, Evangelists, or Prophets by the Scripture, seeing you teach that of them, which seemeth to be contrary unto the Scripture. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinary and continual functions of the Church are also divided into two parts, for either they are they that govern or take charge of the whole Church, as are those, which are called Elders, or they which take charge of one part of the Church (which is the poor of every Church) as are those which are called Deacons. Those again that be called Presbyteri, which we term Elders of the Church, and have to do with the whole Church, are either those, which teach and preach the word of God, and govern too, or else which govern only, and do not teach or preach. Of the first kind are Pastors, and Doctors. Or the second are those, which are called by the common name of Elders, or ancients. Of all this ordinary function I shall have occasion to speak, and of every one shall appear that (which I have said before) that they are no uncertain and undefinite ministries, but such as are limited unto a certain Church and congregation. And first of all, for the Pastor or Bishop, which is here mentioned, which name soéuer we consider of them, they do forthwith, assoon as they are once either spoken, or thought of, imply and infer a certain and definite charge, being as the Logicians term them, actual relatives. For what shepherd can there be, unless he have a flock? and how can he be a watchman, unless he have some city to look unto? Or how can a man be a master, unless he have a servant? or a father unless he have a child? Now if you will say that they have a charge, and they have flocks, and cities to attend and watch upon, for a whole shire, or province, or realm, are their flocks, and their Cities, and their charges. Io. Whitgifte. This division also is of your own inventing: neither have you any mention of Seniors, (as you call them) or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi. which you would have to be so perfect a rulè of ecclesiastical functions. As for Pastors and Doctors, you know that divers both ancient and late writers, as namely Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, Musculus, and Bucer, etc. do confound them, and the reason that Hieroine useth can not be well denied, because the Apostle saith not as he did before of the other: alios pastors, alios Doctores, some Pastors, Eph. 4. and other some Doctors, but he joineth them together, and saith: alios pastors & Doctores, some Pastors and Doctors. M reover I see not how you can justify your division of Seniors by the word of God, as I shall further declare in that place, where Tract. 17. you more largely speak of them: In the mean time, I see no reason why your unpreaching and unministring Seniors, should have any perpetuity in the Church, more than Apostles, for the cause that I have before alleged: neither have you yet proved, that the Deacons office is only to provide for the poor: you have examples to the contrary, as I have declared in my Answer. To be short, I understand not how you can make Doctors, governors of any several parishes and Churches, except you will make them Pastors. But because you only speak here, and prove nothing, I will differre a further answer, unti l I hear more sound arguments. You say, a shepherd can not be, unless he have a flock. etc. all which is true: but he is also a shepherd that hath more flocks, and he is a shepherd, that hath a general care and oversight of many shepherds, and many flocks. For he that hath many flocks, and many shepherds, may have one master shepherd to see that all the rest do their duties, and that the sheep be kept in good order. And though every several City have several watchmen which watch by course, yet may there be one that hath an especial care over all, and is appointed to see the rest do their duties: So one master may have many servants, one father many children. Wherefore if you use this reason to improve the office of a Bishop, it lacketh might: if to prove that a Pastor must have a flock, no man doth deny it: but if to conclude, that no man may preach, unless he have a certain flock, there is no sequel at all in it: for first you must prove that the only office of a Pastor is now remaining in the Church, and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments, except he be a Pastor of some certain flock, for that do I constantly deny. Chapter. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3 First of all in your reading ministers that is untrue, for they go not to eade in all Churches, but arrie till they be hired in one. And therefore when the Bishop hath laid his hand of Petitio principij. them▪ they are no more Ministers, than before his hand came upon them, because they have no charges, and therefore the patron or person that hireth them to read, and setteth them a work are their Bishops, and make them ministers, and not the Bishop of the Diocese. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words grounded upon this false principle, that none oug te to be admitted into the ministery, but such as have a certain cure and charge, which you are never able to prove, either by Scripture or good reason: but the contrary is manifest by both. Chapter. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily, for those that preach to have a whole Diocese, or Province, or Realm to be their flock, or City to attend upon, is contrary to the policy or good husbandry of all those that would either have their City safe, or their flocks sound. For who are they, which would appoint one for the watch of a thousand towns or cities, when as all they, which love their safety, would rather have for every city many watchmen, than for many cities one? Or what is he, that is so watchful and circumspect, whose diligence and watchefulnesse, one city assaulted with enemies, will not wholly occupy and take up? Or what is he, whose sight is so sharp, that he can see from one end of the Diocese, or Province, or realm, to the other end thereof? Or what is he, that will commit the keeping of twenty thousand sheep to one man, that looketh for any good or increase of them? How shall all these hear his whistle, how shall all know his voice, when they can not hear it? How shall they acknowledge him, when they can not know him? how shall they follow him, when they can not see him go before? how shall he heal their diseases, when he can not possibly know them? But some man will say, that these are humane reasons, and likelihoods, which may be overthrown with other similitudes: These notwithstanding are Analogies drawn from the nature of those things, which the Ministers are likened unto, and are of the most part used of the holy Ghost himself expressly. Io. Whitgifte. It is a great point of good husbandry and policy also, to have, besides the several shepherds over several flocks, and sundry watchmen over sundry Cities, divers other to feed the sheep, as occasion serveth, and to admonish the watchmen and the Cities of their duties: else why did the Apostles after they had planted the Churches, and placed shepherds and watchmen over them, so diligently afterwards visit them, and so carefully look unto them, as we read Acts. 14. 15. 18? Was the watch think you the worse kept, or the sheep the negligentlyer looked unto? The policy that Darius used Daniel. 6. when he appointed a hundredth and twenty governors over all his Realm, and over them three to oversee them, and take an account of their doings, is greatly commended: and why may not this policy be necessary in the Ecclesiastical state also? But you here run smothely away with the matter, and suppose that there may not be for several Cities, and several flocks, several watchmen and shepherds, because there be some that have a general care over many flocks and Cities. If a thousand Towns or Cities have a thousand watchmen appointed unto them, to have the particular care over them, and also one, two, or more to have a general care both over the watchmen, and over the Cities also, do you not think that all shall be in better order, and in much more safety? But your similitudes fail marvelously in sundry points, which I must Similitudes are but weak arguments. admonish you of, because you glory so much in them, and think that you have reasoned strongly, when you have used the weakest kind of argument that can be, to prove any thing: for as the Logicians say, Similitudo rem illustrate, sed non probat: A similitude maketh a matter plain, but proveth it not. And it is easily overthrown by showing the unlikelyhoode: In this the similitude agreeth, that as every City must have a watchman, and every flock a shepherd, so every Church or Parish must have a watchman or a Pastor: and as the watchman and shepherd his office is to watch and to feed, and to have a necessary care over their charges, so must also the Spiritual watchman and shepherd have a care over the people committed unto them. All this is true, and neither proveth nor improveth any thing that is in question. I might as well say, that if the City be well watched, and the flock carefully looked unto, though it be not by the watchman or shepherd himself, but by his means and procurement, there can be no just fault found with either of them. Likewise, that when the shepherd hath brought his sheep into a pasture where they may both be sure from all danger, and have meat sufficient, than his presence is not so necessary for them, so that he do sometimes visit them. Also that there is no one watchman, that either doth or can watch continually, but must of necessity have his rest, so that some other supply his absence: and likewise, that there is no master shepherd, but that he hath some under him, either boy, or man, to supply his absence whilst he is about other matters. To be short, that one shepherd hath care over sundry men's sheep, sundry flocks of sundry Towns and Parishes, etc. divers other such similitudes of shepherds and watchmen might I also use, to prove many things contrary to your meaning. I might also show unto you the dissimilitude betwixt a temporal shepherd. and a spiritual shepherd: unreasonable sheep that can not feed themselves, or by any means provide for themselves, nor have any charge so look to themselves, and reasonable sheep, such as God hath endued with knowledge, to whom he hath left his wóorde, which containeth in it sufficient to salvation, whom he hath charged to read it, and to hear it: who shall also answer for themselves. etc. Finally▪ what difference there is betwixt temporal meat and drink, which is soon digested, and therefore daily to be renewed: and spiritual food which continueth, and whereof he that hath once sufficiently tasted, shall not hunger or thirst. etc. These I say, and a great number of other dissimilitudes could I bring, to overthrow all that you can build upon these similitudes. I might further say, that in the Prophets, and other places of the Scriptures, Kings and mighty Princes that have ample and large Dominions, be called jerem. 〈◊〉. both shepherds and watchmen, as namely in jeremy. 2 . ezechiel. 34. etc. and Ezech. 34. therefore all those your reasons might aswell be alleged against them, and of them also might you say, What is he, whose sight is so sharp, that he can see from one end of the Diocese, Province, or Realm, to another? For these names be as common, and as usual to Kings and Princes, as they be to Ministers of the word and Bishops. And truly if these similitudes sink once into the people's heads, and be applied unto civil government, (against which they be as forcible, as against the ecclesiastical) they will as easily, and far more easily stir them up, to seek alteration in that also. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. 5. But that there be no controversy left in this point, what is (*) No man doubteth what a flock is, and yet you have invented a strange definition. a flock? S. Paul defineth it plainly, when he saith: appoint Pastors, or Elders, or Bishops (for these words are indifferently used) through, not every Shire, or Province, or Realm, but through every City, or Town. And lest that any man should here take occasion to conclude, that then it is lawful for one man to be Bishop or Pastor of a whole City, such as London, or York. etc. S. Luke in the Acts doth declare the meaning of this place, where he saith that they appointed Elders throughout every congregation, so that if the City or Town be great, and the professors of the Gospel in it, be more than will make conveniently a congregation, than there must be, by the rule of God (*) You have no word of God for this, and the practice of the primitive Church doth confute it, as it is proved Tract. 8. more Pastors and Bishops. Whereupon it appeareth that both no Pastor or Bishop ought to be made without there be a flock, as it were a void place for him, and that a flock is not a Realm, or Province, or Diocese (as we now call a Diocese) but so many as may conveniently meet in one assembly or congregation. And that this is the meaning of Saint Paul, it appeareth by the practice of the Churches from time to time, which have both decreed against, and found fault with these wandering and roving ministries. Io. Whitgifte. It is manifest that S. Paul willed Titus to appoint presbyteros (for that Tit. 1. word he useth) in every City, for so doth he also say. But what can you hereof conclude? What sequel is there in this argument: Saint Paul willed Timothy to appoint Ministers in every City, Ergo, there must be none admitted to the ministery of the word, but such as have some certain cure? or therefore one man may not have the oversight and direction of many cures? In deed if S. Paul had said to Titus, thou shalt appoint no Ministers of the word, or Seniors, but to a certain cure, or admit none to preach the Gospel, except he have some one place certainly appointed unto him: then your reason had been something. But now it hath no show of any argument. The place Act. 14. tendeth to the same purpose, neither is there one word there to prove that such may not preach the word, as have no certain charge committed unto them: but the contrary rather: for Paul and Barnabas, though they did appoint in every Church Ministers, yet did they preach themselves also. And I hear no reason yet, why both these may not be true, that every Church should have a Pastor, and yet that some may be admitted to preach the word, that have no several churches. This I am sure was usual in the Apostles time, and it is now most profitable, neither is there one title in the whole scripture against it. And you yourself have been in that case ever since you were preacher, and remain so still for any thing that I know. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 1 The great Council of Chalcedon decreed that no Eider or Deacon, or any other in the ecclesiastical Cap. 6. act. 1 . order should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: that is, losely, and as it were let go at random whither he himself stead, which he also interpreteth by and by more plainly, when he addeth, The Council of Chalcedon maimed. that he should not be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: that is, unless it be specially in a congregation of some city or town. And in the Council of Urban (as Gratian reporteth, distinction. 70.) it was decreed that the ordination, that was made without any title, should be void, and what that means, is showed by and by, when it is said, and in what Church any is entitled, there let him always remain. And this is also (*) You still stumble upon Jerome in stead of Musculus. S. Jerome his Ad Nepoti. complaint, in that men were ordained unto the ministery, when they were choose by no Church, and so went round about, having no certain place. And therefore this, that none ought to preach, unless he have some pastoral charge, ought not to have been so strange a thing unto you, as you make it, if either the Scriptures, or the Counsels, or the ancient Fathers, had been so well known unto you, as either your name requireth, or you take upon you, which dare so boldly pronounce, that there can be showed no text of Scripture for the matter. Io. Whitgifte. You are notable in falsifying and coruptly alleging of the authorities of Fathers and Counsels, and a singular grace you have, both in ascribing that unto them, which they have not, and in otherwise reporting that which they have: as you do now in this place deal with the Council of Chalcedon: for you say, that Council decreed that no Elder or Deacon. etc. should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: that is losely. etc. And you add, that he interpreteth this more plainly, when he addeth that he should not be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: that is, unless it be specially in a congregation of some city or town. But you have craftily left out that which maketh against you, and plainly openeth the meaning of the Council, which is this, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc. The whole Canon is this, Nullum absolutè ordinari debere presbyterum aut Diaconum, ńec quemlibet in gradu ecclesiastico, nisi specialiter in ecclesia civitatis aut pagi, aut in martyrio, aut monasterio, qui ordinandus est, pronuncietur. Qui verò absolutè ordinantur▪ decrevit Sancta synodus, Con. Cbalced▪ cap. 6. act. 15▪ irritam haberi viusmodi manus impositionem, & nusquàm posse ministrare ad ordinantis ignominiam. Whereby it is plain, that the meaning of the Council is to have none admitted into any Ecclesiastical degree, except he have some thing to live upon, and not that he must of necessity have some cure: for than would not the council have said aut in martyrio, aut monasterio, for these be no pastoral charges: neither yet would it have added aut Diaconum aut quemlibet in gradu ecclesiastico, Deacons or any other in ecclesiastical degree: because every one admitted in aliquem gradum ecclesiasticum, into any ecclesiastical degree, is not admitted to a cure. Wherefore the gloss in Gratian doth well interpret the meaning of this Canon, when it says that nonc is to be ordained sine titulo, Dist. 70. 〈◊〉. without a title, ne dicatur, mendicat in plateis infoelix clerious: lest it be said, an unhappy clerk beggeth in the streets: and further addeth thus, colligitur etiam bic, ex eo quod dicit, sive possessionis, argumentum, quod si quis habet patrimonium sufficiens ordinari potest sine titulo: an argument may also here be gathered, in that it saith (or of possession) that if any have sufficient patrimony, he may be ordained without a title. But these words, sieve in martyrio sive in monasterio, do manifestly declare that the Council would have none admitted to any Ecclesiastical function without some stay of living, either of some benefice, Monastery, College, Chapel, his own possessions, or such like: as the practice of the Church under the Pope is at this day. And yet if any man should say, that out oh this Canon there can be nothing gathered, but only this, in what places those that are called to the ministery are to be admitted and ordained, I know not how you could answer it, for the words of the Canon admit that sense most properly. That decree of Vrban hath the same meaning, and that which followeth, of remaining continually in that Church, in the which he is entitled, doth but signify that he must be assured of his living, whereunto he is entitled during his life: for the same Canon doth permit one man to have two Churches, but yet that he aught not to be canonicus prebendarius, but only of one Church whereof he is entitled. But I can not but marvel that you will use the testimony of this Council of Pope Vrban, which was held at the lest an. 1090. after Christ, even in the most corrupt time, when as Antichrist had fully possessed the sea of Rome, in the which Council among other things (a) Volater▪ & Bale. he confirmed the acts of Pope Hildebrand against Henry the Emperor. This urban also was the confirmer of the superstitious orders of the (b) Platina: in vita Vrb. 2. Cistercian friars, and (c) Volateran: & Cent. II ca 10. Carthusian Monks, he likewise deposed (d) Distinct. 32 eos qui. Deacons that were married, from their orders: And (e) Matth. p risi. in vita Willi. 2. forbade (by the Council of the traitorous Archbishop Anselme) that any Clerk should receive beneficiorum investituram, or any Ecclesiastical dignity, of any Prince or lay man, but (f) Cent. 4. only of the Pope. And that you may yet further understand what a worthy patron you have got for your cause, this urban was he that was author (g) P lid. de invent. lib. 6. cap. 2. of the Canonical hours, commonly called our Lady's Psalter. Certainly Jerome saith no such thing in that Epistle, you are disposed to father that of him that he never spoke▪ His complaint was that much cost was bestowed upon Churches in adorning and decking of them, and little regard to the choice of Ministers, meaning that they had more care to have gorgeous Churches than good Ministers. But what is this to your purpose? Thus have you proved neither by Scripture, nor by Council, nor Doctor (truly alleged and understanded) that none may preach, unless he have some pastoral charge, and I still affirm that you have not one text of Scripture sounding that way, where there are to the contrary sundry examples, as I have alleged. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 77. Sect. 2. If you had used more reasons, I would have answered them, what certain cure had Paul, Barnabas, Philip, Epaphroditus, Andronicus, junius, & yet they were not of the twelve Apostles? It is a strange doctrine to teach that a man may not preach out of his own cure: It is more strange to say, that it is not lawful for him to preach, except he have some pastoral cure, being of himself able to live, and not minding to be burdensome to the Church? If you seek for any text in the scripture to confirm this doctrine, you can find none: if you seek for examples to the contrary, you shall find plenty. T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 2. 3. 4. But you ask what place Paul and Barnabas had appointed them. What mean you thereby to conclude, that because Paul and Barnabas the Apostles had no place appointed them, therefore a Pastor or Bishop should not? when this is one difference between the Apostle and Bishop, that the one hath no certain place appointed, and the other hath. But I think I smell out your meaning, which is, that we may make Apostles also at these days, and that that function is not yet ceased, for otherwise your reason is nothing worth. Likewise also you ask of Philip, which was an Evangelist. And so you think that these running Ministers are lawful, because they are Apostles and Evangelists, against which I shall have occasion to speak shortly after in the. 50. Page. But if a man be able to live of himself, and mind not to be burdensome to the Church, it seemeth unreasonable unto you, that he may not go about and preach throughout all Churches. Did you never read any learned disputation, and that of learned writers in our days about P. Marty upon the 1. Cor. 9 thinketh it more expedient for one to take wages of the Church although he be able to live of himself. this question: whether (although it be lawful) it be expedient that a man being able and willing to live of himself, aught to take wages of the Church, for inconveniences which might ensue of taking nothing? I do but ask you the question, because you make so great a wonder at this, for I will not take upon me here the defence of it, because I will not multiple questions. And why I pray you may not that man that is so able, and will be content to live of himself, why I say may not he teach and be the Pastor of some Church? Do you think that for his forbearing the wages of the Church, he may break the (a) What laws & orders, where are they establi shed. laws & orders that God hath established? Io. Whitgifte. It is a good reason to prove that there may be preachers of the word, which have no certain cure, and doth clean overthrow your former answer to the place Acto. 1. for Paul and Barnabas were not choose into any vacant place as Mathias was, and therefore that reason is no reason. I do not say a Bishop or Pastor should not have a place appointed unto them (for I know Bishops and Pastors have their cures limited) but this I say, that some may be preachers and Ministers of the word, which have no certain cure. Neither is this true that all such as be admitted to the preaching of the word, be either Bishops or Pastors. Against Apostles and Evangelists we shall understand what you have to say, when we come to that place. You ask me whether I ever read any learned disputations. etc. I might ask you the same question, for you utter no great reading here, only you allege Peter Martyr upon. 1. Cor. 9 where he speaketh little of this matter. For the question is not whether a man having a Pastoral cure, and sufficient of his own to live, may cease to take th' ordinary stipend of his Church or not, which is that, that Peter Martyr handleth in that place, and whereof he maketh this resolution, that he should do that therein, that may most profit the Church, and further the Gospel, and yet to be most expedient to take the accustomed stipend, although S. Ambrose Lib. 1. of. cap. 36. and diverse other be of the contrary judgement. But this is our controversy, whether a man having sufficient to live of by himself, may not be admitted to the preaching of the Gospel, except he have some Pastoral cure. S. Paul in that Chapter glorieth that he took nothing of the Corinthians, & Peter Martyr in the same place saith that Paul would take nothing P. Martyr in 1. Cor. 9 that he might the more freely reprehend. You ask me also why that man, that is so able, and will be content, may not teach, and be the Pastor of a Church. etc. I answer, that he may and if he will. But I ask you again, what if he be persuaded that he shall do more good, by going to such places, where there is greater want of preaching? What law or order is there established by God to the contrary? where is that law or that order? Set it truly down, and I yield unto it: else can I not but dissent from you, seeing I see manifest examples in the Scripture to the contrary: and even your own example, also in your own person, which aught to have moved you to a public confession, if you have all this while usurped an unlawful vocation: as certainly you have done, if this your assertion be true. Of Ceremonies used in ordaining Ministers. Chap. 2. the first Division. The Admonition. But now Bishops (to whom the right of ordering Ministers doth at no hand appertain) do make, 60. 80. or. 100 at a clap, and send them abroad into the country like masterless men. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 47. Sect. 3 That the ordering of Ministers doth appertain to Bishops properly, Ordering of ministers pertaineth to Bishops. which you here utterly deny, I have proved before: they be best able to judge of men's ability to that function. It is their especial charge to see that there be meet Ministers in the Church, and therefore good reason that they should have the chief stroke in ordering of them: & yet in that business they trust not themselves alone, they have other godly and learned ministers to assist them in examining such as are to be admitted: they also require a testimonial of life and conversation from that place, wherein those that are to be Ministecs have been latest and longest remaining. Page. 48. Sect. 1. 2. If such numbers as you say be admitted at one time, and sent abroad like masterless men, that is the fault of the person, not of the law: neither is it a sufficient cause to debar any learned, godly and meet man from the ministery, able to live of himself, or having any other Ecclesiastical living, as prebend, fellowship in some college of either university, or such like, though he have no Pastoral charge and cure, neither shall you ever be able to prove, but that a man disposed and able to do good in the Church of Christ, may be admitted into the ministery, although he have no ecclesiastical living at all. I mislike runagates and masterless men, and such as are compelled to seek up and down to get them services aswell as you: and I hope the redress thereof is already determined. T. C. Page. 44. Sect. 4. For the rest contained in those Pages touching the ordaining of Ministers or Bishops I have before spoken at large. Io. Whitgifte. You have not answered to the most of this, that is in this portion contained, and especially touching ordaining of Bishops and ministers. Chap. 2. the second Division. Admonition. The eight. Then after just trial and vocation they were admitted to their function, by laying on of the hands of the company of the (w) 1. Ti. 4. 14. eldership only. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 49. Sect. 1. 2. Of trial and vocation I have spoken before. To prove laying on Of laying on of hands. of hands. etc. is alleged the first of Timothy the fourth Chapter, this is but a ceremony, and it is now used: for the Bishop and other learned and grave Ministers there present, do lay their hands upon such as are admitted into the ministery. Now if you would know what is here meant by seniors, you may learn if you please of Oecumenius a learned and old writer, who expoundeth this place of Timothy on this sort, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. By seniors he means Bishops: and so saith Chrysostom inlike manner. T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 5. Oecumenius and Chrysostom say, that by Elders he means Bishops (a) An untruth, for Chrysostom maketh a manifest distinction. not thereby to severe th' see that had the government of the Church together with the pastor and minister of the word, which were called ancients, as you seem to mean: but to put distinction between those which are Elders by age, and Elders by office, besides that it is before alleged that it may be, that the pastor or Bishop did in the name of all the Elders lay on his hands upon him that was ordained. And lastly, you know, and can not deny, that S. Paul in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder. Io Whitgifte. The words of Chrysostom, and of Oecumenius be evident, as you might have perceived, if you would have taken pains to read the places. For the words of Chrysostom be these: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: He Chrysost. in 1. Tim. 4. speaketh not here of Elders, but of Bishops, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: for certainly the Elders did not ordain the Bishop. How say you, be not these words plain, that he means Bishops, and not other Ministers? And M. Beza in Beza. his notes upon this place saith thus: Presbyterij. 1. ordinis presbyterorum, quo nomine probabile est coetum omnium illorum significari, qui verbo laborabant in Ep esiorum ecclesia: Of the eldership: that is to say, of the order of Elders, by which name it is likely, that the company of them, which laboured in the word in the Church of Ephesus, are signified. Vt Acto. 20. Whereby it is certain that he secludeth your unministring Seniors. Chap. 2. the third Division. Admonition. Now there is (neither of these being looked unto) required an Albe, a surplice, a A slanderous untruth. vestiment, a pastoral staff. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 49. Sect. 3▪ In the book now allowed of making Deacons & ministers, and consecrating of Bishops, there is neither required Albe, Surplice, vestiment, nor pastoral staff: read the book from the beginning to the ending. And therefore this is a false and untrue report. Io. Whitgifte. This is confessed by silence, and therefore here the Admonition containeth a manifest untruth, and wanteth a proctor. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. The Admonition. Beside that ridiculous, and (as they use it to their new creatures) blasphemous saying, receive the holy Ghost. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 49. Sect. 4. & ult. To use these words (receive the holy Ghost) in ordering of Ministers, which Christ himself used in appointing his Apostles, is no more ridiculous and blasphemous, than it is to use the words, that he used in the Supper: But it is blasphemy thus outrageously to speak of the words of Christ. The bishop by speaking these words doth not take upon him to give the holy Ghost, no more than he doth to remit sins, when he pronounceth the remission of sins: but by speaking these words of Christ, receive the holy Ghost, whose sins so ever you remit, they are remitted▪ etc. he doth show the principal duty of a Minister, and assureth him of the assistance of God's holy spirit, if he labour in the same accordingly. You call them his new creatures, these be but words of s urrilitie, to be hissed at, not to be answered. T. C. Page 44. Sect. ult. To say that the Bishop may as well say (receive the holy ghost) as to say the words used in the Supper, or to say that the sins of those, which do believe are forgiven, is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as far as York and London. For there are commandments to the Ministers to do that, which they do, and here is none: and there the Minister doth not command that the bread be the body of Christ, but he saith that it is. Neither doth he command that sins should be forgiven, but pronounceth in the behalf of God, that they are forgiven. It is not lawful also, that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or increase of God his gifts upon him, that is ordained, but to command that he should receive it, is merely unlawful. For these words (receive the holy ghost) are the imperative mode, and do expressly signify a commandment. And so the Bishop may as well say to the sea when it rageth and elleth, peace, be quiet, as to say receive the holy Ghost. And if you think it so good reason to use this in the making of ministers, because you use the words of our Saviour Christ, why may not you as well blow upon them as he did? For seeing that our saviour Christ confirmed his word there with a Sacrament, or outward sign, and you think you must therefore do it, because he did it, you are much to blame to leave out the outward sign, or Sacrament of breath, whereby the faith of him that is ordained, might be the more assured of such gifts and graces, as are requisite in his function. I heap not up here the judgement of writers, you know, I think, it might easily be done, if I liked to follow that way. Io. Whitgifte. Christ used these words (this is my body) in the celebration of his Supper, but there is no special commandment that the Minister should▪ use the same, and yet must he use them, b cause Christ used them: even so, when Christ did ordain his Apostles Ministers of the Gospel Io. 20. he said unto them▪ receive the holy G oft. etc. which words because they contain the principal duty of a Minister, and do signify that God doth pour his spirit upon those whom he calleth to that function, are most aptly also used of the Bishop (who is God's instrument in that business) in the ordaining of Ministers. S. Paul speaking to Timothy. 1. Tim. 4. saith, Neglect 1. Tim. 4. not the gift that is in thee, which was given unto thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. In which words the Apostle signifieth, that God doth bestow his gifts and spirit upon such as be called to the ministery of the word, whereof imposition of hands is a token, or rather a confirmation: and therefore saith M. Caluine, that it was not a vain ceremony, because God did fulfil with his Cal. 1. Tim. 4. spirit that consecration, which men did signify by imposition of hands. And surely as that is no vain ceremony, though it be done by men, so these be no vain words, though they be spoken by men. Neither doth the Bishop speak them as though he had authority to give the holy Ghost, but he speaketh them as the words of Christ used in the like action, who (as I said before) doth most certainly give his holy spirit to those whom he calleth to the ministery. And surely if any pattern either in calling or ordaining of ministers is to be followed, this of Christ is to be followed especially: and it is not unlike but that the Apostles when they laid on their hands used the same words, because (as I have said) laying on of hands is a sign, or rather a confirmation of the same. That which you speak of commanding, is a mere cavil, you know in your conscience that there is nothing less meant. To recite the words of Christ in the name of Christ, in the self same manner that Christ did speak them, is as lawful in this action, as it is in the Supper, for the bread is not the ministers body, but the sacrament of Christ his body, and yet he saith, Take and eat, this is my body: So in reciting Gods commandments we say, Thou shalt have no other Gods but me: and yet we mean not that we are their Gods, but we speak the words of God in his person, and in the self same manner & form, that he hath left them unto us. But it is now no marvel though such as wickedly forsake their calling, do also impiously deride and jest at the manner and form thereof. Christ when he said to the sea, peace, be quiet, showed a miracle to confirm his divinity: but when he said, receive the holy Ghost. etc. he did institute a ministery, which should be used by man: and therefore there is no similitude betwixt these two. Christ when he breathed upon them, did an action proper unto himself, for he thereby signified that he had authority to give unto them his holy spirit, and that the same spirit did not only proceed from the father, but from himself also: when he spoke these words, he made a perpetual promise, that all such should receive his spirit, as from time to time were by him called to the office of the ministery. I think you would surely use some authority of writers here, as you do in other places, if you had any: but I suppose you have not one that misliketh this form, as it is used in this Church of England. I know they do justly condemn the foolish imitation of the Papists, who follow Christ in breathing: But that there is any great misliking of these words, receive the holy Ghost (except only when they speak of the papistical abusing of them) I can not perceive. Of Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets. Chap. 3. the. 1. Division. The Admonition. The ninth. Then every pastor (x) Act. 0. 8. Eph. 4. 11. Titus. 1. 5. 1. Pet. 5. 1. had his flock. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 50. Sect. 2. To prove this you allege the. 20. of the Acts, the. 4. to the Ephe. the first to Titus, the. 5. chapter of the. 1. of Peter: which places declare that there were Pastors which had flocks: but they prove not that every Pastor had a flock: nevertheless how so ever you prove it, true it is that if he be a Pastor, he must have a certain flock, for therein doth a Pastor differ from the rest of the degrees of ministers in Christ's Church, mentioned in the fourth chapter to the Ephes. But you must learn, that there be not only Pastors in the Church, but also Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Doctors, Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. who all are called ministers, and have their place in the Church of Christ, as it shall be proved if you deny it. T. C. Pag. 45. Sect. 1 This passeth all the divinity that ever I red, that there are now Apostles, and Evangelists, and Prophets. You shall assuredly do marvels, if you prove that, as you say you will, if any deny it: I deny it, prove you it. Io. Whitgifte. Apostles. Then have you not red much divinity: for if it be true that the Apostle Saint Paul in the fourth to the Ephesians doth make a perfect platform of a Church, and a full rehearsal of the offices therein contained (as you say he doth) then can I not understand how you can make those offices rather temporal, than the office of the Pastors and Doctors. And forasmuch as you so greatly contemn authority, and would have all things proved by Scripture, let me hear one word of the same, that doth but insinuate these offices to be temporal. The place itself seemeth to import a continuance of these functions, until the coming of Ephes. 4. Christ. For he sayeth: He therefore gave some to be Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers, for the gathering together of the Saints, for the work of the ministery. etc. until we all meet together in the unity of faith and knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man, and unto the measure of the age and fullness of Christ. etc. I am persuaded that you can not show any like place, which doth so plainly import the abrogating of them, as this 1. Cor. 12. &. 14. doth make for their continuance. I have beside that place to the Ephesians, the twelfth of the first to the Corinth. and the. 14. where he speaketh of Prophets, as of perpetual ministers in the Church of Christ. I know that there were certain things in the Apostles, which were proper unto themselves, as their calling, which was immediately from God, their commission to go into the whole world, the power of working miracles, to be witnesses of the Resurrection and of the Ascension. etc. but to preach the word of God in places where need requireth, (though the same be not peculiarly committed to them) or to govern Churches already planted, I see no cause why it should not be perpetual. Evangelists. Likewise the office of the Evangelist, if it be taken for the writing of the gospel, than it is ceased. But if it be taken for preaching to the people plainly and simply, as (a) Bull. in. 4. ad Ephes. Bullinger thinketh: or generally, for preaching the gospel: as (b) Musc. Tit. de ver minist. in locis come. Musculus supposeth, in which sense also Paul said to Timothy. 2. Timo. 4. do the work of an Evangelist: Or for preaching more fervently and zealously than other, as (c) Bucer in. 4. Ephes. Bucer sayeth: then I see no cause at all why it may not still remain in the Church. Moreover Prophets, if they be taken for such as have the gift of foreshowing things to come, then be they not in all times of the Church: but if they be Prophets, 1. Cor. 14. such as Saint Paul speaketh of. 1. Corin. 14. such (I say) as have an especial gift in interpreting the Scriptures, whether it be in expounding the mysteries thereof to the learned, or in declaring the true sense thereof to the people: I understand not why it is not as perpetual as the Pastor or Doctor. Thus you see that I have both Scripture and reason on my side: and to the end you may perceive that I am not destitute of the consent also of learned Ambrose. men in this matter, I will set down the opinions of one or two. Ambrose upon these words Ad Ephes. 4. Et ipse dedit quosdam quidem Apostolos. etc. sayeth thus: The Apostles are Bishops: Prophets be interpreters of the Scriptures, although in the beginning there were Prophets, as Agabus, and the four Virgin's Prophetesses, as it is in the Acts of the Apostles. etc. yet now interpreters be called Prophets, Evangelists be Bucerin. 4. Ephe. Deacons, as Philip: for although they be no Priests, yet may they preach the Gospel without a chair, as both Stephanus and Philippe before named. Bucer upon the Fol. 42. sect. ult. same place saith that there be Evangelists now, and you yourself fol. 42. confess, that Hus, Jerome of prague, Luther, Zuinglius. etc. were Evangelists. Peter Martyr in his P. Martyr. Commentaries upon the. 12. to the Romans saith, that the Apostle there describeth those functions and gifts, which are at all times necessary for the Church: And in that place the Apostle mentioneth Prophesying. M. Caluine in his Institut. Caluine. cap. 8. doth confess, that God hath stirred up Apostles or Evangelists since that time of the Primitive Church, and that he hath done so likewise even now in this tyme. M. Bullinger upon the place of the fourth to the Ephe. sayeth, that the words Bullinger. be confounded, and that an Apostle is also called a Prophet: a Doctor, an evangelist, a minister, and a Bishop: and a Bishop, an evangelist, and a Prophet. etc. To be short, it is thus written in the Confession of the Churches in Helvetia, Confess. Heluetica. The ministers of the new Testament be called by sundry names: for they are called Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, bishops. etc. And (speaking of Prophets) it sayeth: The Prophets in time paste, foreseeing things to come, were called Seers, who were expounders of the Scriptures also, as some be even now a days. Evangelists were writers of the history of the Gospel, and Preachers also of the glad tidings of Christ his Gospel: As Paul bid Timothy do the work of an evangelist. etc. So that to say, that there is in the Church Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists in such sense as I have declared, is no strange divinity, to such as be divines in deed. But let us hear your reasons. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. T. C. Page. 45. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And that you may have some thing to do more, than peradventure you thought of, when you written these words, I will show my reasons, why I think there ought to be none, nor can be none, unless they have wonderful and extraordinary callings. It must first be understanded that the signification of this word Apostle, when it is properly taken, extendeth itself not only to all the ministers of God, being sent of God, but to the Ambassador of any Prince or noble man, or that is sent of any public authority, and is used of the Scripture by the trope of Synecdoche for the twelve, that our Saviour Christ appointed to go throughout all the world, to preach the Gospel, unto the which number was added Saint Paul, and as some think Barnabas, which are severed from all other ministers of the Gospel by these notes. First, that they were immediately called of God, as S. Paul to the Galathians, proveth him Gal. 1. self to be an Apostle, because he was not appointed by men. Then that they saw Christ, which argument Saint Paul useth in the. 9 1. Cor. Am I not an Apostle? have I not seen Christ? Thirdly, that these had the field of the whole world to till, whereas other are restrained more particularly, as to a certain plough land, wherein they should occupy themselves: whereupon it followeth, that as we conclude against the Pope truly, that he can be no successor of the Apostles, not only because he neither teacheth, nor doth as they did, but because the Apostles have no successors, neither any can succeed into the office of an Apostle: so may we likewise conclude against those that would have the Apostles now a days, that there can be none, because there is none, unto whom all these three notes do agreed: as that he is both sent of God immediately, or that he hath seen Christ, or that he is sent into all the world. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine upon the sixteenth to the Romans sayeth, that this word Apostle, in proper and usual signification, doth only comprehend that first order which christ in the beginning did appoint in his twelve disciples, which is directly con trarie to your saying. I grant that in such respects as you now put down, there be no Apostles: although Mathias was not immediately called by God, as it appeareth Acts. 1. and you before have confessed: neither can you prove by the Scripture, that Barnabas was so called, but the contrary rather doth appear in the. 11. of the Acts, and yet he was an Apostle. Saint Paul in the first to the Corinth. 9 doth not say that he saw Christ, to prove that he was an Apostle, but to declare that he was in that respect nothing inferior to the rest of the Apostles. I have before declared in what sense I say that there be Apostles in the church: neither is it a matter so strange seeing that M. Caluine sayeth as much in the place before recited: Quanquam non nego, quin Apostolos postea quoque, vel saltem eorum loco Euangelistas interdùm excitarit Deus, ut Cal. in. 16. Ro. instit. cap. 8. nostro tempore factum est, Although I do not deny, but that God hath afterwards also stirred up Apostles, or at the lest Evangelists in stead of them, as it is done in our days. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 45. Sect.. 5. And although some Ecclesiastical writers do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles, yet that is to be understanded because they propound the same doctrine that they did, not because they succeeded into the same kind of function, which they could not do. S. Paul doth use this word sometimes in his proper and native signification, for him that is publicly sent from any to other, as when he speaketh of the brethren that were joined with Titus, which were sent by the Churches with relief to the poor Church in jerusalem and Inry, and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle. But that is with addition and not simply, as in the first place he calleth the brethren the Apostles of the Churches, that is, not the Apostles of all Churches, or sent to all 2. Cor. 8. Churches, but the Apostles which certain Churches sent with the relief to other certain churches: and Epaphroditus he calleth not an Apostle simply, but the Apostle of the Philippians, that Philip. 2. is, which the Philippians sent with relief to Paul, being in prison at Rome, as it appeareth in the same epistle. Io. Whitgifte. The writers of the Magdelb. history call Epaphroditus an Apostle in the same sense Epaphroditus an Apost. that they call Paul, and the rest of the Apostles: & M. Caluine thinketh the name of an Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. Apostle to be taken in that place generally, pro quolibet evangelista: for any preacher of the gospel. Ambrose says: erat eorum Apostolus à Paulo factus, dum illum ad exhortationem Calvin. in. 2 Philip. eorum mittebat ad eos: he was made their Apostle of Paul, when as at their request he sent him unto them. And Theodoret in plain words doth call him an Apostle, because he Ambrose. in Philip. 2. was bishop of the Philippians. If these say true, as no doubt they do, them is not Epaphroditus called an Apostle only in that signification, that you say he was. In that he Theo. 1. Tim. 3. & Phil. 2. calleth them Apostles with an addition of the Churches, not of all Churches, he confirmeth my saying, for it argueth that there may be Apostles though they have commission but for one kingdom or province only, as Epaphroditus was the Apostle of the churches of the Philippians, because he was sent unto them to preach. Thus doth both Ambrose, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Caluine, and others writ. Chap. 3. the fourth Division. T. C. Pag. 46. Sect. 1 And as for Andronicus and junius which are by you recited (*) T. C. 〈◊〉 of a direct answer with this (belike) belike to prove that we may have more Apostles, because it is said of S. Paul that they were famous and notable amongst the Rom. 16. Apostles, it cannot be proved by any thing I see there, whether they had any function ecclesiastical or no. For S. Paul calleth them his kinsfolks, and fellow prisoners, and doth not say that they were his fellow labourers: and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the Apostles, and well known unto them, which is no Apostle. And if the Apostles would have had this order of the Apostles to continued in the Church, there is no doubt but that they would have choose one into james his room, when he was slain, as they did, when they supplied the place of judas, by choosing Matth s, and so ever as they had died, the other would have put other in their places. So it appeareth that this function of the Apostles is ceased. Io. Whitgifte. The foresaid authors of the story called (a) Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. Magdelburgica, do also reckon these two Andronicus & junia Apostles. among the Apostles, even as they do Paul & Barnabas. (b) Caluine in 16. Rom. M. Calvin upon that place to the Romans saith, that the name of an Apostle there doth extend to all those which teach not one Church only, but many. etc. and seemeth to account Andronicus and junius such. (c) Beza in. 16. Rom. M. Beza in the same place writeth thus: Inter Apostolos. etc. i quorum nomen inter Apostolos viget, vel qui & ipsi sunt insignes Apostoli, ic enim accipitur interdum oc nomen in genere pro bis, qui Christi nomine funguntur legatione, That is, whose name is famous among the Apostles, or which are themselves notable Apostles: for so is this name sometime generally taken for those, which are sent in embassage in the name of Christ. Bullinger doth think that they were in the number of the. 72. disciples. Peter Martyr upon that Bull. in. 16. Rom. place, They are called notable amongst the Apostles: not because they were of the college of the twelve Apostles, but because (as it is credible) they had spread the Gospel through Martyr in. 16 Rom. many places, and had planted many Churches. And a little after speaking of your interpretation, he sayeth, This sense doth not displease me, if the words themselves be not contrary thereunto. So that he seemeth to doubt whether the words will bear your interpretation or no. Gualther and Bullinger also suppose it not to be unlikely , Gualther in. 16. Rom. that they were the first planters of Christian religion at Rome. And I can read of none that doubteth whether they had any function Ecclesiastical or not, as you do. I brought them in before pagina. 47. to prove that some may be choose to preach the word which have no certain cure, and you to avoid a direct answer, have shifted them of to this place, and now you say, that belike. I bring them in to prove that we may have more Apostles, which thing in deed they prove manifestly, but I brought them in to declare that a man may be admitted to preach, though he have no certain cure, and to that you have not answered. There is nothing expressed in Scriptures, whether the Apostles did choose any into the room of james or no: but I am persuaded they did not, neither was it necessary. For who ever said, that there must continually be twelve Apostles, and neither more nor less? I told you before out of M. Caluine, that this word Apostle, in his proper and usual signification comprehendeth only the twelve Apostles appointed by Christ. Wherefore in this signification there are now no Apostles, neither was there any since that time: but it signifieth also generally such as preach the Gospel in sundry places, and although they go not through the whole world, as the twelve did, yet are they not bound to any one place certainly. And according to this signification, there both hath be e and are Apostles. Chap. 3. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page. 46. Sect. 2. 3. You ask further, that if a man should not preach before he have a pastoral charge, what they will answer unto Philip and Epaphroditus, whereby your meaning is belike, that although they beno Pastors, yet they may be Euangeli 'tis, which go about the country here & there. But this office is ceased in the Church, as the Apostles is, saving that sometimes the Lord doth raise up some extraordinarily, for the building up of the Churches, which are fallen down, and pulled up by the foundations, as I have showed somewhat before. And that it is ceased, it may appear by these reasons. first, for because all those that the Scripture calleth precisely Evangelists (which are only Philipan Timothy) had their callings confirmed by miracle, and so it is like that Titus and 〈◊〉 and pollos, and if there were any other, had their vocations after the same manner Act. 8. 39 confirmed, but there is no such miraculous confirmation now, therefore there is no such vocation. 1 Tim. I 18. Io. Whitgifte. I have declared both before by Scripture, reason, & other authority, that though the name of an Evangelist be changed, yet the office remaineth. The Scripture no where calleth Tunothie an Evangelist, only. 2. Ti. 4. S. Paul willeth him to do 2. Tim. 4. the work of an Evangelist, which is, to preach the Gospel. But of this matter I have at large spoken in an other place. It passeth to see how boldly you do abuse the Scripture. Where do you read that either 〈◊〉 or Philippe, were ordained or confirmed Evangelists, by miracle? There can be no such thing imagined: in the. 39 verse Acts. 8. the words Act. 8. be these: And as soon as they (that is Philippe and the Eunuch) were come out of the water, the spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the Eunuch saw him no more etc. Was this the miracle that confirmed Philip an Evangelist? Lord God what mean you? This was rather done to confirm the Eunuch: As for Philip it is manifest that before this miracle he was an Evangelist: for in the same chapter we read that before this time Philip had preached in Samaria, and converted them, being before seduced by Simon the sorcerer: and that he had also baptized them. Moreover he had converted the Eunuch, and baptised him before this miracle was showed: wherefore it could not be a confirming of his evangelistship. That in the. 1. Ti. 1. vers. 18. insinuateth, that diverse Prophecies had go before of Timothy, whereby it was revealed that he should be a worthy Minister of the Church, or as Caluine sayeth, which had commended him to the church: although there be sundry interpretations of that place more like to be true than that. But how proveth it that he was made an Evangelist, by miracle? First Timothy was now a Bishop, as hereafter is proved. Secondly, here is no mention made of any calling to an Evangelist ship. Thirdly, a Prophecy is not a miracle. Last of all, though this were true both in Philip and Timothy (as it is in neither) yet doth it not follow, that whosoever is called to be an Evangelist, must also be confirmed by miracle, for particular examples make no general rule: Timothy was ordained minister of the Gospel, per impositionem manuum, by the laying on of hands, 1. Tim. 4. 1. Ti. 4. 2. Ti. 1. And therefore his vocation was ordinary, and needed no such confirmation 2. Tim. . by miracle. Chap. 3. the. 6. Division. T. C. Page. 46. Sect. 4. Now again, if there should be any Evangelist, who should ordain him? you will say the Bishop. But I say that can not be, that the greater should be ordained of the less. For Heb. 7. the Evangelist is a higher degree in the Church, than is the Bishop or pastor. And if he be so, why hath he not his estimation here in the Church about the Bishop or Archbishop either? for the Archbishop is but a Bishop, or why doth not he ordain Bishops as Tunothie and Titus did, which were Evangelists, being one point of their office, as Eusebius declareth? Euseb. li. 3. cap. 27. Io. Whitgifte. You do but try my patience in so often offending in the petition of the principle: For neither can you prove an Evangelist to be an higher degree in the Church than is a Bishop, neither is it true that Timothy and Titus were Evangelists, and not Bishops, and in that point have you all the writers both old and new, stories and other, one or two only excepted, flatly against you, besides the evident reasons that may be collected out of the Scripture. I know not to what purpose you quote the. 7. to the Hebrues, except it be for this Hebr. 7. text: The less is blessed of the greater: in which place blessing is not taken for ordaining or consecrating: for Melchisedech did no such thing to Abraham. But it is there taken as it is Numer. 6. where the Priests are commanded to bless the Numer 6. people, and therefore serveth not your turn for any thing here spoken. I understand not to what end you quote Eusebius in his third book, and. 27. Chapter. Vain quotation. For there is not in that place one word spoken of an Evangelist, or any part of his office. Chap. 3. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 46. Sect. 5. Again, if there be in every Church a Pastor, as S. Paul commandeth, what should the Evangelists do? for either that pastor doth his duty, and then the Evangelist is superfluous, or if he do it not, than he is no lawful pastor, and so aught he to be put out, and an other to be put in his stead. And where the pastor doing his duty can not suffice, there the Scripture hath given him an aid of the Doctor, which for because his office consists in teaching doctrine, to this end that the Pastor might not be driven to spend so much time in propounding the doctrine, but might have the more time to employ in exhorting and dehorting, and applying of the doctrine to the times and places, and people, it is manifest that he also is tied to a certain Church. For how could he be an aid unto the pastor to whose help he is given, unless he were in the same church where the pastor is? And that the Evangelists office hath been to taken as a function that endured Lib. 5. cap. 10. but for a time, it may appear first by that which Eusebius writeth speaking of Pantenus: for saith he, there were until that time Evangelists. etc. which was about the year of our Lord 162. Whereby he giveth to understand, that about that time they ceased, and that in his time there was none, when notwithstanding there were Bishops or Pastors, and Elders Li. 1. offic. 1. and Deacons. And Ambrose saith, that there be no Apostles, but those which Christ himself did appoint: whereby it appeareth, that of all the Ecclesiastical functions that preach the word there are but the Pastor and Doctor only left unto us, and the same also restrained to particular charges. Io. Whitgifte. But what if there be not in every Church such a Pastor, neither can be, is the Evangelist then necessary? you must of necessity confess that, for the people must not be deprived of the word, when by such means they may have it. howbeit, though every Church had his Pastor, and every pastor did his duty, yet might preaching by other do good, as well for the confirmation of the Doctrine, and the more frequent preaching, as also for that it pleaseth God sometimes to work that by one, that he doth not by an other. But what Scripture have you to prove that the Doctor is added to the Pastor, as an aid, or that the Doctor is tied to a certain place? you have no licence to coin new Scriptures, and in the old I am sure you can not find it. As for your bore word, it is but a very bore proof. I told you before, that Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, Musculus, and diverse other upon good reason confound Pastor, and Doctor, and think them to be but diverse names of one office. And whereas you say, that the Doctors office consists in teaching doctrine, to this end, that the Pastor might not be driven to spend so much time in propounding the doctrine. etc. I would gladly know whence you learn that. Ambrose sayeth, they be such as see good rule kept in the Church, or such as Ambrose in 4. Eph. teach children. Eusebius words speaking of Pantenus be these: There were as yet at that time many Evangelists, which were priest and ready to this, that they might with a godly zeal according to the Apostles example, promote and plant the word of God. Which prove, that there were then Evangelists good store, which were zealous. etc. But there is no mention made of any ceasing of their office: it rather proveth a continuance of the same, being so long after the Apostles tyme. There is now no such Evangelists as go from kingdom to kingdom, or through the Lib. 5. cap. 9 world, because the miraculous gift of tongues is now ceased. Neither is any now lawfully called to any such Ecclesiastical function, but by man, and therefore they must go no further than his authority extendeth that hath called them. Ambrose sayeth truly, if he should say that there are no Apostles but such as Christ himself appointed, if we speak properly and usually (as I have before declared) but that is no hindrance to any thing that I have affirmed. And yet surely the words of Ambrose sound nothing that way, for Ambrose abasing and disabling himself says thus: Non igitur mihi apostolorum gloriam vendico, quis enim boc, nisi quos ipse filius elegit dei? etc. I therefore challenge not to myself the glory of the Apostles: for who can do this, but they whom the son of God did choose? And what can you hereof conclude? He says afterwards also, that i e doth not challenge to himself the circumspection of Pastors, yet was he than a Bishop, as it is in that place evident. Gladly would you have some authority for your purpose, if you could tell where to found it. Of the residence of the Pastor. Tract. 5. Chap. 1. the first Division. T. C. Page. 46. Sect. 6. Now that I have proved that there are no Evangelists, Prophets or Apostles, and that the ministries of the word, which remain, are limited unto certain places: I will take that which you grant, that is, that the Pastor or Bishop aught to have a special flock. And demand of you, wherefore he should have it? Is it not to attend upon it? And can he attend upon it, unless he be resident and abiding upon it? But he cannot be abiding upon it, if he go from place to place to preach where he thinketh necessary. Therefore being Pastor or Bishop of a congregation allotted unto A digression from the matter to the person. him, he may not go from place to place to preach where he thinketh good, much less to have a mastership of a college in one corner of the land, a Deanery in another, and a Prebend in the third, and so be absent from his pastoral charge in such places, where either he preacheth not, or needeth not to preach, those places being otherwise furnished without him. For then how is this difference kept between the Pastor and other ministers, that the one is tied to a place, and the other is not. For if you say, that it is in that he shall preach more at his flock, than at other places, I answer that the Evangelists and Apostles did carry longer in one place, than in another, and taught some congregations years, when they did not othersome months. And therefore they say nothing, which allege for the nonresidence of Pastors that S. Paul called Timothy and Titus from Ephesus and Crete, for first they were Evangelists and no Pastors, than they went not of their own heads, but called of the Apostle, which was a chief governor of the Church. And thirdly they went not, but having other sufficient put in their place, as it appeareth in their several epistles, so that if that place make any thing it maketh not to prove the non residency, but rather whether a minister may be translated from one Church to another. Io. Whitgifte. Your reader, if he judge indifferently, cannot but acknowledge this, that you so confidently speak of proores, to be but a vain brag and nothing so. There is no man that denieth but that a Pastor aught so to attend upon his flock, How a Pastor aught to be rendent. as he may be well able to do his duty towards the same, and with a good conscience answer his doings before the chief Pastor, to whom he shall give his account. In the mean time if he be godly, if he preach among them as often as he is persuaded to be convenient, if he have a care over them, that they be not destitute of that, which is necessary, if he have such as are honest, learned, and diligent to supply his absence, he may be bold to say to his unlawful judges, tu quis es, qui iudicas alienum servum, proprio Rom. 14. domino stat, aut cadit. Who art thou, which condemnest another man's servant? he standeth or falls to his own Master▪ Whether a Pastor having a flock, may also preach out of his own charge, is another question. And although it be by you denied, yet because your words without proof weigh not much, I will (for the avoiding of confusion) speak nothing thereof in this place, but this only, that as the opinion is strange, so is it most untrue, and not to be justified either by Scripture, ancient fathers, or reasons. But (o T C.) who seeth not the mark, you shoot at? who perceiveth not how you Why T. C. slideth from the matter to the person. slide from the matter to the person? To what end do you here recite a mastership of a college, a deanery▪ a Prebend, but that your meaning is to note some one particular man, whom (because he hath withstood your erroneous and contentious doctrine, hath not exalted you, as it is well known you have desired, hath executed those laws upon you, which (for the avoiding of manifest and wilful perjury) you ought to The oath of the fellows of Tri. Col. in Cam. have executed of yourself) you seek by all means possible to deface. Is this conscience▪ Is this praebe, e te benevolum magistro, non solùm dum in eo vixeris, sed etiam postea pro virill. etc. The Lord forgive you, and give you grace to know yourself. If he that hath this mastership, Deanery, Prebend & benefice, neglect his duty in any one of them, if he do not that, that both God's laws and man's laws require of him, if be be a loiterer, if he seek his ease, if he be not able to give an account of his doings when he shall thereunto be called, then let him sustain both the shame, and the blame also. The Pastor is not so tied to any place, that he may not from the same be bodily The Pastor may be absent upon occasion absent upon occaston, as I am ready to prove by sufficient both reason and authority, when I shall be urged there unto. The examples of the Evangelists and of the Apostles do verify the same, for they fully instructed the churches, wherein they preached, in all things necessary to salvation, though they did not continually remain with them, but now and then visit them. And therefore the Pastors may so do in like manner. Touching Timothy and Titus (whom you so often without any kind of proof deny Timothy being a Pastor was absent from Ephesus. to be Pastors) I have spoken else where at large: notwithstanding because your too too bold asseverations may appear what they are, I will in a few words even in this place declare, both that Timothy and Titus were Pastors, and that their examples do evidently prove that a Pastor may be upon occasions absent from his flock. And for this time I will be content with that only, that M. Caluine writeth touching In the treatise of archbishops. etc. the same matter, referring the reader for further proof, to that, that I have in more ample manner written of the same. M. Caluine. 1. Ti. 1. doth call Timothy Pastor of the Church of Ephesus. And in the. 1. Ti. 4. expounding these words, ne donum quod Tract. 8. Caluine. in te est. etc. he says that the holy ghost had by oracle appointed Timothy to be received into the order of Pastors. And. 2. Ti. 4. that he did excel vulgar and common Pastors, meaning that he was an excellent Pastor, endued with more singular and notable gifts, and of greater authority, than the common sort of Pastors be. And in the same Chapter speaking of Paul's sending for Timothy from Ephesus to Rome, he saith, that there was no small cause why Paul sent for Timothy from that Church, which he ruled and governed, and that so far off: hereby we may gather (says he) how profitable conference is with such men: for it might be profitable to all Churches, which Timothy might learn in a small time: so that the absence of half a year, or of one whole year, is nothing in comparison of the commodity, that cometh thereby. Whereby it is manifest that Caluine both took him to be a Pastor, and also excuseth his absence. So that the example of Timothy maketh much for the pnrpose: The like may be said of Titus, and of sundry other in the scriptures. Now if the Apostle being a chief governor of the Church might call Timothy and Titus so far from their cures, and that for no great, nor yet common matters of the Church, but for his own private business, as it appeareth. 2. Tim. 4. then I trust you will also think it lawful, that such as be rulers and governors of the Church, may do the like. There is no man that writeth so exactly of Non residence, but Lawful causes of the pastors absence. he confesseth certain necessary causes of absence, as if it be for the commodity of the Church, whereof he is Pastor, or for the commodity of the whole church of that kingdom, or for the commodity of other particular churches in the same, or for necessity, or upon commandment of higher authority: in all these and such like cases the absence of a Pastor is lawful, and it is praesentia rather than absentia, if you will believe learned writers. Now if you will demand of me who shall allow these causes, I answer, no one private man, of what calling soever he be, but the magistrates, to whom the government of the Church is committed, if they allow the absence, and the Pastor satisfy his own conscience, there is no man of God, no good conscience, no modest spirit, that dare presume to judge him, much less to condemn him. That he aught in his absence to provide a sufficient deputy, I confess, and that example of Tichichus doth prove that, for he was Timothy's deputy, and not his successor, as you seem to insinuate. M. Caluine says that S. Paul sent Tichichus to Ephesus, Ca▪ in. 2. Ti. 4. when he sent for Timothy to Rome, in the mean time to supply his absence: So that he was but Timothy's deputy. Moreover it is manifest that Timothy was often absent Timothy often absent from Ephesus. from Ephesus, twice with Paul at Rome, and that he returned thither again this last time, as well as he did at other times, as both M. calvin's words before mentioned do declare, and I also have evidently proved in that place, where I prove Timothy Tract. 8. to be Bishop of Ephesus. Chap. 1. the second Division. T. C. Pag. 47. Sect. 1 But I will never weary my pen to confute those, whom their own * This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men's consciences as God. consciences are too strong for, and confuteth every night when they go to bed: for that were nothing else but to reason with the belly, that hath no ears to hear, or with the back that hath no eyes to see. Those that think that they having charges of their own, yet may go from place to place where they think it necessary, and that it skilleth not where they preach, so they preach: must consider, that if they think that God is the author of their placing in their flocks, then that either their abode there is needful and expedient, or else that God did not see well and clearly, what was meet to be done in placing them over that congregation, and appointing that that congregation should hung and depend upon them, for their nourishment and good government. Io. Whitgifte. A sore judgement and presumptuous: still I say tu quis es. etc. who art thou which The Pastor may preach 〈◊〉 more places. condemnest. etc. The rest of that section is builded upon the petition of the principle, for there is no man (I think) that so regardeth preaching in other places that he neglecteth it in his own. But I am fully persuaded, the God hath so called no man to one place, that he hath restrained him from doing good in other places also: and I constantly believe, that in the more places he laboureth and doth good, the more his service to be accepted unto God. And it is a token that he is truly called when he hath an hearty desire to profit many. All congregations of Christians are dear unto God: wherefore he doth not so much incline to any one, that he would have the other altogether neglected. And therefore if there be but one good man placed in a whole shire, I think that he is there placed to do good in the country round about him, and that he aught so to do, because they be all sheep pertaining to one fold: but yet so must he labour generally, that he have an especial care of his own particular flock. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 47. Sect. 2. And you see that if I would follow those noble metaphors of watchman and Shepherd, which the scripture useth to express the office of a minister with, what a large field is opened unto me. For than I could show you how that cities besteged, and flocks in danger of the wolves, are Luke. 2. * watched continually night and day. And that there is no city so sore and so continually besieged, nor no flocks subject to so manifold diseases at home, or hurtful and devouring beasts abroad, and that without any truce or intermission, as are the Churches, the shepherds, and watchmen whereof are Pastors or Bishops. Io. Whitgifte. I have showed before what your metaphors of watchmen and the pheards can prove: Tract. 4. cap. 1. diuis. 6. what dissimilitudes there is betwixt them and spiritual watchmen and Pastors. I think your meaning is not, that the Pastor should preach both night and day, or that The metaphors of watchmen and shepherds. there is no continual watching, but continual preaching. If I were disposed to dally with you in your metaphors, I could say unto you that watchmen must of necessity oftentimes have their deputies, or else that there must be many of them, and so watch by turns. I could also say, that assoon as the watchman hath told the city of the enemies approaching, and hath discrieb them unto it, he may departed from his station and take his rest. Likewise that the watchman hath lest to do, when his enemies are nighest, especially when they have invaded the city: for then are the soldiers to drive them away by force. Wherefore by these metaphors this only can you prove, that the Pastors aught to admonish their flocks of their enemies, descry them in time, and will them to be vigilant. The enemies are known, the armour is certain, the citizens reasonable, wherefore if they neglect the Admonitions given in due time and order, if they be not vigilant, their blood be upon their own pates, the watchman hath done his duty. The like in all respects may be said of shepherds and sheep. To what purpose you have quoted in your margin the. 2. of Luke. I know not, Luke. 2. except it be, because it is there said, that the shepherds were watching their sheep in the night. The which how you can apply to your purpose I would gladly learn, for these shepherds went from their sheep, and left them in great danger. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Page. 47. Sect. 3 But I will leave that to their considerations, and will show that the parts and duties of the minister be such and so many in his own flock, that if he were as wise as Solomon was, as great in council as joseph, as well learned as S. Paul, as active as joshua, which fought so many battles in small space, yet all were little enough or too little, to perform to the ul that, which his charge requir th' of him. Of the Pastors therefore is required not only the preaching of the word, and ministering of the sacraments, whereof, the preaching of the word, & ministering of the sacrament of baptism, aught to be continually, and as often, as the Church may conveniently assemble, the other sacrament of the Lord his supper, although not so continually (sore that the Church shall hardly have so much leisure from their necessary affairs of this life, as that they may celebrated it as ften as the other) yet so often, as that we remember▪ that too rare and seldom celebrating it, argueth a mind too too much forgetful of the unspeakable benefit of our redemption, and argueth also that we are far behind the primitive Church in zeal, which did celebrated it every Saboth: I say beside the preaching of the word, and ministering of the sacraments, there is required of him that he should admonish privately, and house by house those that are under his charge. 20. Acts. Io. Whitgifte. Certain it is, that the charge of a Pastor is great, and that he, which doth the best, must confess and say that he is but an unprofitable servant: and yet if he occupy his talents, be they more, or be they fewer, and gain with them more or less, he hath a merciful master, who will embrace him with mercy, and will accept of his service. And therefore, though he be much inferior to Solomon in wisdom, to joseph in council, to Paul in learning, and to josua in activity, yet may he be a faithful servant, Matth. 25. and hear of his Lord and master, Euge serve bone & fidelis. etc. It is well done good servant and faithful. If you should thus straightly deal with the Pastors, and leave them no consolation, you should not follow our saviour. Christ his mildness and mercy. But let the bitterness of your speeches go, and let us come to the weight of your reasons: you say that there is required of the Pastors preaching of the word, and ministering of the sacraments, & private admonition, & that the preaching of the word & ministering of the sacrament of Baptism, aught to be continual: and private exhortations likewise, & therefore the Pastor may not be absent. Touching the preaching of the word I have spoken before something, it must be according the to conscience & discretion of the Pastor, who hath to consider what is best for that congregation, whereof he hath the charge, both for the often preaching, & for the manner of preaching also: The sacraments may be administered by other, than by the pastor, as they were in the Apostles tyme. 1. Cor. 1. & Act. 10. Private exhortation must also be used as occasion serveth, according to the discretion of the minister. But I marvel that you say, the ministering of the sacrament of Baptism aught to be continually. etc. Baptisin ministered but once in the year. You know that in Victor his time it was celebrated but once in the year at Easter. And in tertullian's time at Easter and Pentecoste, and in many Parishes in England there is no such daily need of administering that Sacrament. To conclude, both the Sacraments may be as well ministered by an other if occasion serve. And therefore of all other reasons this is the slenderest. Saint Paul's meaning in the. 20. of the Acts, is not that he daily went into their houses to exhort them, but that he did so as occasion served. Chap. 1. the fift Division. T. C. Page. 47. Sect. 3 Now tell me how this can be done profitably, without a diligent marking and looking into their manners? How can either public preachings, or private admonitions have their effect and working, unless the word of God be applied according to the disposition or state of that people, unto which it is preached? And undoubtedly hereof it cometh that the word of God is no more effectual in this realm than it is, for because it is preached hand over head, without knowledge and understanding the estate of the people. For so, oftentimes the promises and glad tidings of the gospel of our saviour are preached unto those, that being before secure in their sins, are after the hearing of the promises rocked into a dead sleep thereof, and they that are overthrown with the conscience of their sin, and confounded in themselves, are by the sharpness of the law, and hearing of the judgement of God broken into pieces, & driven to desperation. And so likewise, the people are taught sometimes how to lead their lives in honest conversation, when all that doctrine falls to the ground, because they have no knowledge of Christ, nor of faith in him: and to be short, it is as much as if either the surgeon should apply his plaster, or the Physician his medicine, when they neither know of the wound, or disease of their patients. But this knowledge of their estate, cannot be without a continual abode amongst them, therefore a continual residence is necssary. Io. Whtgifte. The Apostles and other in their time, did not long continued in one place to learn A man may profit them by preaching, whom he knoweth not. the people's manners, and yet did they much prevail by preaching: neither is it so hard a matter to know the people's manners and conditions, though a man be not perpetually resident among them. The word of God (his name be praised therefore) hath been effectual in England, and numbers are by the same converted from superstition, blindness, and ignorance, to the true knowledge of God. But this is an old and usual objection of the Anabaptists against the Church of Christ, that in their Churches there is a manifest amendment The usual objection of the Anabaptists of life, but in other Churches, which seem to profess the gospel, there appeareth no such fruit: & that the gospel is preached, but no man the better. This I say, is the slanderous speech of the Anabaptists against those Churches, from the which they have divided themselves, and it is very often used by you. You must think that there be Pastors and Preachers in England, that understand the state of the people, and know what discretion to use in their sermons and exhortations, as well as you can teach them. But this is most true, that as you think none learned but yourself, so do you also judge all men to lack both wit add discretion but yourself. And here in this place have you taken upon you this censure most confidently, I will not say arrogantly. In the end of this division you conclude thus, the knowledge of the estate of the people cannot be known without a continual abode with them: therefore a continual residence is necessary. You must prove the Antecedent, for it is false. The Apostle known (so far as it was The Pasto may know the estate of the people without a con tinuall abode amongst them necessary for him to know) the Romans, the Corinthians, Galatians and other Churches to whom he written, and yet was he not continually resident among them▪ And so did the other Apostles and Preachers, which were not resident in any one place: and yet a preacher may do good in preaching among them, whom he knoweth not, for it is God that directeth him in his words and matter. And for as much as he cannot but know that every congregation consists of divers minds and affections, therefore (except he be void of discretion) he will so moderate and temper his sermon or exhortation, that it may profit all, and hurt none, but such as do not accordingly receive it. And therefore both these propositions are false: th' a man by preaching cannot profit such, as he knoweth not: and that he cannot know them, except he be perpetually resident with them. Chap. 1. the sixte Division. T. C. Page. 48. Sect. 1 Moreover as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer to all the doubts & questions, that any of the people should come to ask: so the ministers in their several parishes should be ready to dissolve the difficulties, that either one hath with another, or with himself, touching the conscience, for want whereof, the consciences of many, after doubtful and dangerous wrestling with the devil, and which despair are strangled. And thereupon some hung or drown themselves, some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning, and labouring to have no sense nor feeling of their sin, close up the wound unhealed, which after, either breaketh out more dangerously, or else every day more and more waxing senseless, and without feeling, treasure up unto themselves the wrath of God against the day of judgement. For although the judgement of God doth not for the time follow them so hard, as them, which through terror of conscience untaught and uncomforted, kill themselves: yet their estate is never the less dangerous therefore, but rather more, for as much as by a longer line of sin drawn out, they also pull upon themselves a heavier condemnation. Which things when they see oftentimes before their eyes, that will consider it, it is easy to judge that it cometh to pass a great deal oftener than we can see. Io. Whitgifte. You do not refer me to any place, where I might read that the priests in the law were ready in the temple to answer all the doubts and questions, that any of the people should come to ask. etc. And I do not remember any such place in the scripture, except you mean that, which is written in the. 17. of duty. verse. 9 etc. where there is no such Deute. 17. attendance mentioned: but only the people are willed to bring their controversies to the priests and the judge. If you mean the. 12. verse of that Chap. where it is said of the priest that he standeth before the Lord to minister there, you have also miss the quisshion. For the meaning of that place is that whosoever presumptuously refuseth to hearken unto the Priest (so long as the priest is the true minister of God, and pronounceth according to his word) shall die. etc. The priest here had to do in civil and judicial matters together with the judge: the priest was but in the chief place, where judgement was herded, and not in every particular congregation. Wherefore if you would conclude any thing of this place, it must be, that the Priest must be joined with the judge, and have to do in civil and judicial matters, and remain in some chief place of the country where judgements are to be herded. You can by no means hereof conclude, that every particular congregation should have a Pastor continually remaining with them. There is not now any such general ignorance, but that there may divers be found able to answer all such doubts, as you speak of sufficiently, though the Pastor be absent. The scriptures also are publicly read in every man's house, which are as Saint Paul says. 2. Ti. 3. profitable to teach, to improve, to correct, to instruct in righteousness, 2. Tim. 3. that the man of God may be absolute, being made perfect in all good works: and as Chrysostom calleth them, they be an apothecary his shop, where every man may find In. 3. Coll. remedy for his diseases. Moreover the sufficiency of his curate may be such, that he shall be aswell able to answer all such questions, as if he himself were present. Neither are those cases you put usual (God be thanked) and they oftentimes happen, where there is least cause to complain of any absence of the Pastor. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 48. Sect. 1 When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continual, is a bond strong enough to hold the Pastor to his flock, than the inquiry of the manners & behaviour of his flock, the private admonitions and consolations, the dissolving of doubts, when any rises, as a three or four fold cord aught much more to hold him: so that he which shall break all these things willingly and wittingly, cannot easily be thought to break them as Samson did his, by the strength of God, but rather by some other power not of God. Io. Whitgifte. I would not have any man to think, that I take upon me to maintain careless & Care 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be not defended. slothful pastors: I speak only of such as be vigilant, & occupy themselves profitably in the Church, visit their several flocks, & teach them to the satisfying both of the parishes, and of their own consciences also: such I am persuaded, may do as much in all those points here by you mentioned, to the commodity of their flock being sometimes absent, as if they were continually present, besides the good they may do, to the whole Church generally, whereof they are also members and Ministers. But I muse with what face you can thus seek to deface true pastors that do good in Some 〈◊〉 delight to face good 〈◊〉 that do 〈◊〉 good thieves. the Church, though not so much as you think they should do, seeing you yourself, and a number more do no good at all in any place, but only range up & down, live at other men's tables, disturb the Church, & think that you have done your duties, when you have defaced all other men's doings. I am verily persuaded, that he which preacheth at his cure but one sermon in a year, offendeth God less, than you do, that have forsaken your calling. Chap. 1. the eight Division T. C. Pag. 48. Sect. 1 Besides that S. Paul commandeth that the pastor should be a pattern or example in all goodness, 1. Tim. 4. & holiness of life unto his flock, & our saviour Christ says that when the she hard hath 〈◊〉 john. 10. forth his sheep, he goeth before them, but if the Pastor be not amongst his flock▪ and have not his conversation there, they can not follow him. If they have not the example before their eyes, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not make the like unto it. Therefore this commandment also bindeth them to residency amongst their flocks. S. Peter willeth the Pastors of the Churches, that they should feed the flocks. What flocks? Not every one, but those, which are committed to their faith or trust, or which dependeth upon them. And S. Paul speaking to the ministers or Bishops of Ephesus, willeth them Act. 20. that they should take heed unto the flocks, over the which the holy Ghost had made them overseers, where he restra eth, as S. Peter did their oversight and watch unto their particular flock. 1. Thes. 2. S. Paul says that he took it heavily that he was separated from them but a small time. If therefore the Apostle was away with grief from them, whom he had taught, whom his calling compelled to be away, and would not suffer to be always there: what shall be thought of the Pastors, whose callings is to be with their flocks, & which are consecrated unto them, even as the Apostles were unto the whole world? what I say shall be thought of them, that are away months & years? Io. Whitgifte. Christ is a pattern and an example to us in all goodness, whom we must follow, A man ma olow the example of h that is not lwayes present and yet we never see him, but have only herded of him by his word. S. Paul willed the Corinthians. 1. Cor. 4. &. 11. and the Philippians chap. 3. to follow him, and yet was he not perpetually resident among them. A man may be thoroughly known touching his external conversation, of those with whom he is divers times conversant, although he be not always abiding with them. I think there be Pastors very well known to their flocks both for their life and doctrine, and yet do not continually remain with them: you and I have not been long nor much conversant together, and yet surely I suppose that I know you both touching your Religion, conversation, and affection, as well as if I had been twenty years companion in your chamber with you. And therefore this is no good argument, to say that the pastor must be an example to his flock, and therefore he must of necessity be continually among them, for he may so be, and that perfectly, if he be sundry times among them, and likewise if they hear of his good conversation in place where he remaineth, when he is not among them. The same answer serveth for that which is alleged out of the. 10. of S. john. S. Peter. 1. Epist. Chap. 5. doth not only exhort Pastors and such as be addicted to some certain place, but all other also to whom this word presbyter doth reach, as it may appear in that he himself saith qui sum & ipse presbyter, which am also myself an elder. 1. Peter. . Wherefore it is an exhortation general to all preachers and Ministers of the word, and not only proper to pastors: the words that follow be diversly expounded: some say feed the flock of God, which dependeth upon you, some, which is committed unto you, and othersome, as much as lieth in you, which is the most common interpretation, 〈◊〉 it is as much as though he should say, according to the Talon that God hath given unto you. But how soever it be interpreted, the meaning is, that every man labour in teaching, instructing, and governing the Church of Christ, and the charge committed unto him faithfully and diligently. Which exhortation of Peter may be obeyed of him that is not continually remaining in one place, if he do, as I have said before. The words of S. Paul Acts. 20. tend to the same end. A minister of the word and pastor must be diligent in his calling, not slothful, and aught to seek by all means possible to profit the Church of Christ, and especially in such places, where unto he is especially called: all this I grant. The place of S. Paul. . Thes. 2. is far from the purpose. For Paul declareth his singular good will and affection that he had to the Thessalonians: he doth not express any duty of his ministery, and therefore a learned man interpreting that place saith, binc colligimus, quod sancti etiam se videre secundiòn carnem gestiunt, hereof we gather, that the Saints also do gladly desire to see one another bodily. A man to express his singular affection towards his friend, will say, that it grieveth him to be out of his company one hour. But how followeth this argument. Paul was desirous to be corporally present with the Thessalonians, and to remain with them, Ergo a Pastor must never be absent from his flock? if it be lawful to make such arguments, I will conclude any thing. Chap. 1. the 9 Division. T. C. Page. 48. Sect. 1 And indeed those that feed their flocks faithfully according to the commandment of God, do see what a great wisdom and mercy of God it is to appoint every flock his pastor, & every pastor his flock. They can tell of a wonderful love, that God worketh in them towards their flocks, and in their flocks towards them. A great encoragment unto them, and as it were a prick to stir up their dullness it is, when they see the blessing of God upon their labours, and thereof a marvelous care, and thought to turn all such things away, as should hinder the increase of that blessing, which they can not have any feeling or experience of, which are not conversant with their flocks, besides a familiarity between the pastor and the flock is profitable to this, that every one may be emboldened to come and demand to be satisfied of those things they doubt of, which they will never do unto those, whom they are not by continual conversation acquainted with. Io. Whitgifte. How can you tell? you have no such experience, for you never had flock: or what boasting pastor hath so bragged of himself? Peradventure because some troublesome people delighted with contentions and strange opinions made much of him, & the rest gave him some countenance, he thought they loved him, when as peradventure it was nothing so. But be it true of those, whom you mean: I doubt not but there be flocks that have that love towards their Pastors, and Pastors that have that love towards their flocks (though they do not continually remain with them) which aught to be in the Children of God, and which never will be remoned, deface you them as much as you can. Chap. 1. the tenth Division. T. C. Page 49. Line. 2. And it is not nothing, that Aristotle disputeth against Plato his community, which would have all things common, and that all men indifferently should have care of all things, and should have nothing, which he should say to be his own. For therein Aristotle said very well, that that which was (*) You speak contraries. cared for of all men, was neglected of all, and cared for of none: so that the preservation of wife or Children, or of any other possession, was then the best and surest, when as every man had a certain possession committed unto him, which he should care for, and take charge of. And so the Lord his wisdom was for the better surety and salvation of his Church, not to make many Ministers, which should in common and indifferently take care of all, but ordained that the Church should be divided in diverse parts, and that every one should have a piece to care for, and to give account for. Io Whitgifte. What hath Aristotle to do with non residence? Authority is scarce when his help is Aristotle not rightly alleged. required. But what says he? forsooth, that that which was cared for of all men, was neglected of all. I think that you report not Aristotle's words truly: for as far as I remember, he saith that that which is common to all, is neglected of all. The other can not be true, for that which is cared for of all men, can not be neglected of all (for to care for, and to neglect, be contraries) but must of necessity be well provided for, and looked unto. But to what purpose do you allege this? Because I say that no man must so look to his private A man having a private charge▪ aught to care for the whole. charge, that he neglect the other parts of the Church: do I therefore say that there is no private charge, but all things are in common? It is the duty of every member in the common wealth so to look to his own private affairs and business, that he neglect not the common state of his country: are all things therefore common? neither did Aristotle ever teach that a man should so care for his certain possession, that he preferred not the common utility before it: and so likewise Christ hath divided to every man a portion of high Church to care for, but yet not so, that he should think himself no longer bond to the whole, or that he must now cease from profiting the whole. Chap. 1. the. 11. Division. T C. Page 49. Sect. 1 Now if any man will say, that in such great scarcity of Pastors, it is good, that when a man hath travailed in one place, & removed them from superstition, & brought them to believe in God through Christ, to go to another place, and assay also to draw them from Idolatry: first I urge that, which I did before, which is the calling, wherein every man must abide, and without the which no man aught to attempt any thing. Then I say, that it is as hard a province, and as painful a thing unto the pastor, as acceptable and precious a work unto the Lord, to keep those, which are got, as to get those, which are not got: and that that saying is fulfilled here, if in any thing else, Non minor est virtus, quam quaerere, parta tueri. Io. Whitgifte. This objection is of greater force, than you are able to withstand. For the same God, that hath called him to the one place, to plant his true Religion there, hath also called him to the other, that he may do the like even as he did the Apostles, Prophets and Evangelists, and pastors also, who have been even immediately after the Apostles time transferred from one place to another, for the greater commodity of the Church: Neither can it be proved that any man should be so tied to one place, that he may not be transferred to another to profit more. It is true that the devil most grievously assaulteth those, which have embraced the truth, because now they are become his professed enemies, & openly withstand him: But they are sufficiently armed with faith, and with the word of God, so that although they be tempted, yet can they not be overcome. The other that remain in ignorance he wholly possesseth, and because they have yielded themselves unto him, he doth suffer them to be quiet: therefore to deliver such out of his servitude and bondage, and so to arm & instruct them, that they are not only able to withstand, but to put to flight the devil also, must of necessity be both the hardest, and the most acceptable work unto God: except you will say that it is more commendable to help him, who is sufficiently armed, and able to resist, than him that is altogether unarmed, and as it were under the foot of his enemy. Certainly the most acceptable work unto God is, to convert sinners unto repentance, and to heal such as be sick, & therefore Christ himself said, that he Luke. 19 came to seek that which was lost: and the parable of the lost groat, and of the Prodigal Luke. 15. son doth with might & main overthrow your sayings: so do the whole dealings of the Apostles, and the whole course of the Scriptures. Chap. 1. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 49. Sect. 2. For we know that after that the Devil perceiveth, that men are pulled out of the power of darkness, into the glorious light of the Gospel, he sweateth and laboureth by a thousand means to destroy them, and bestirreth himself more then, than in the time of their ignorance, and in stead of that one chain of ignorance, and want of the knowledge of God, he layeth a thousand traps for them, to snare them with. So that the continual danger that the Church is in, doth as it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were speak unto the pastor in the common proverb, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: that is, look diligently to that charge, which thou hast received. For if the watchman should forsake the city, where unto he is appointed, and go, and watch in another, where he is not called, although he save that, if he lose the other, he shall not therefore escape the punishment of betraying the other city▪ where he was placed watchman. Io Whitgifte. So it is: but all the devils in hell can not prevail against them: therefore said S. Paul to the Ephe. cap. 6. Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to Eph. 6. resist the evil day. etc. every Christian is in this case, yea the pastor himself: but wot you what Christ saith, joh. 10. My sheep hear by voice, and no man shall take them joh. 10. Chrysost. in 3. Colos. Colos. 3 out of my hands. The Scriptures, as Chrysostom saith, be continual schoolmasters: and he that hath understanding may therein learn how to withstand Satan and all his assaults. And therefore said the Apostle to the Coll. 3. Let the word of God devil in you abundantly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing your own selves, in Psalms and hymns. etc. If the watchman hath sufficiently admonished the city, and hath ministered weapons unto them, brought them out of the bondage of their enemy, and leave some other behind him to supply the rest, and then go to another city to deliver it also from the like slavery, if in the mean time the former city be lost, or revolted (which is not like) their blood be upon themselves, the watchman hath done his duty. When Io ss had told Niniveh her offences, & showed his message for the which he was sent, The preacher is called thither where he may do most good. was there any more required of him? Moreover I am persuaded, that wheresoever the preacher may do most good, thither is he called of God: neither is this to forsake his station, but to follow his calling, and to do good. Chap. 1. the. 13. Division. T. C. Page. 49. Sect. 3 Touching the behalf of God and his glory, if any man will say that they can not perish, which once have believed, and therefore those may be left, and others attempted, I can say of those that are in ignorance and blindness, that they can not perish that be elected, although they never have the Gospel preached. And therefore we must walk in those ways that God hath appointed, to bring them to salvation, which is to feed them continually, and watch over them so long as they are in danger of hunger, in danger of wolves, in danger of the enemies, within and without, which is so long as the Church is here upon the earth. Io. Whitgifte. God forbidden that any man should use any such kind of excuses, to take away the means whereby God useth to call such as be his: but it is a comfort to the pastor, when he is in conscience persuaded, that he hath not omitted to open unto his flock those ways and means, and that he ceaseth not still to admonish them of the same in time convenient. S. Paul Act. 20. saith to the Ministers of the Church of Ephesus, that he Act. 20. was free from the blood of them all, and that he had opened unto them the whole counsel of God. etc. and yet he had not been much with them: and after that time he thought that he should not see the most of them any more. Wherefore a man may do his duty, and open all things and means necessary unto salvation, although he be not continually remaining in one place. Chrysostom expounding the place in the third to Chrysost. 〈◊〉 3. Col. the Collos. Let the word of God devil in you. etc. after that he hath willed them to prepare them bibles, and told them that it especially pertaineth to them to read the scriptures, he addeth: cast not all upon our shoulders. You are sheep, but yet reasonable, the Apostle hath committed many things unto you. Those that are to be instructed must not always learn. etc. And again he saith: Habes oracula dei, nemo te docebit quemadmodùm illa: Thou hast the word of God, no man can teach thee like unto it. Chap. 1. the. 14. Division. T. C. Page 49. Sect 4. Upon all which things I conclude, that the residence of the Pastor is necessary, & to doubt whether the Pastor aught to be resident amongst his flock, is to doubt whether the watchman should be in his tower, the eye should be in the head, or the soul in the body, or the shepherd amongst his flock, especally where the sheep are continually in danger of wolves, as in the land of jury, from whence this similitude or manner of speech was taken, where they watched their flocks night and day, as I observed before out of S. Luke. Io. Whitgifte. The question is not whether the pastor aught to be resident or not, but of the time, the manner and kind of residence. No man must continually be absent, for that were altogether to neglect his flock: neither is it required that he be continually present, for that can not be. But if he neglect not his duty in preaching, & perform other things requisite, although he be sundry times absent upon the occasions before specified, yet is he not to be condemned, seeing it often times cometh to pass, that such kind of men do most good, both in their Churches particularly, and in the Church generally. Of the watchman and of the shepherd I have spoken before, and showed wherein the similitude Tract. 4. ca●▪ diuis. 6. & tract. 5. ca ●. divisi. 3. holdeth, & wherein it holdeth not: no one watchman is continually in the tower, neither is it possible that he should be: it is sufficient if the tower be watched, & the chief watchman neglect not his duty: the shepherd also is not always present with his sheep, but sometime he leaveth them alone, when he hath folded them, or brought them into a safe pasture, & sometimes he committeth them to his servant, or to some other to be kept in his absence. The similitude of the eye and of the soul, in some points may be aptly applied, but not in this of residence, for if either the eye be plucked out of the head, or the soul separated from the body, neither of them both can be restored again. But you must confess that there be causes why a pastor may be absent from his flock without any such uncurable danger: and therefore these similitudes in these cases of absence hold not. T. C. Page. 49. Sect. 5. If any will here upon conclude, that they have no space given them to sleep, to eat, to drink. etc. they are cavils, which I will not vouchsafe to answer. Io. Whitgifte. A very modest, and short answer. Chapter. 1. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 49. Sect. ult. Again, if he will say, that then they may not go forth of the town to do their necessary business Here you overthrow all your former building. ●1. john. for their families, I desire them in the name of God, that they abuse not his graces, in devising cloaks to cover their disorders, but that they would set before them the love of Christ, which shallbe found to the so much, as they shall show themselves diligent in continual feeding their flocks, & to fear the judgement of God, before whom no feigned, or coloured excuse will stand. And so I trust they will make no longer absence, than must needs, and if upon any occasion at any time they be somewhat longer, that the same be not without the leave of their Churches, whose they are, and which they for the Lord his sake serve, & then also that in such rare and necessary absence (*) Here you admit cura●, which is contrary to your forme● assertion. they provide them of some able man to teach in the mean season, which the Church by her governors will allow of. Io. Whitgifte. Yet such doubts would be directly resolved, for they seem something to trouble you. And in very deed they 'cause you to overthrow whatsoever you have hitherto go about to build: for now you confess that the Pastor may be absent of his own private business: if he have leave of his Parish, and if he provide some able man to teach in the mean season. etc. I pray you let me ask you a few questions: may not a man be aswell absent for public affairs, or at the commandment of the Prince or chief Magistrate, as he may be for his own private business? Is not his flock in as great danger when their Pastor is absent with their leave, as when he is absent without their leave? or where do you find it in scripture, that the Pastor ought to ask leave of his Parish, when he hath occasion to be absent? Or how shall he get Pag. 42. etc. an able man in the mean season, to teach his flock, when as you affirm, that no man may be admitted into the ministery, except he have a certain flock committed unto him. And that than it is not lawful for him to preach out of his own cure? These questions would be answered, and these contrary speeches of yours reconciled, if it be possible. For undoubtedly they do not agree with your former talk. Of pluralities, or having more benefices than one. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. Admonition. Then had every flock his shepherd, or else y Act. 14. 23. shepherds: Now they do not only run fisking from place to place (a miserable disorder in God's Church) but z Esaie. 5. 8. covetously join living to living, making shipwreck & 1. Ti. 1. 14. of their own consciences, and being but one shepherd (nay, would to God they were shepherds and not wolves) have many flocks. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 50. Sect. 3. 4. & Pag. 51. Sect. 1 You say also that every flock had his shepherd or else shepherds. And to prove that one flock had more shepherds, you city Act. 14. which maketh nothing for your purpose: yet I deny not but one flock may have more Pastors, for I see nothing in the word of God against it. To be short, you say now they go fisking from place to place, and covetously join living to living. etc. & being but one shepherd have many flocks. If you mean by fisking from place to place, such as preach in divers places, and not in their own cures only, your phrase of fisking is to light and scurrilous. When you allege any reason why men may not go from place to place to preach, where they think it necessary, you shall either be answered, or yielded to. In the mean time I think it agreeable both to God's word, and conscience. Against covetously joining of living to living you allege the. 5. of Esay, which is far from your purpose: for the Prophet speaketh there of such as oppress the poor, and will not suffer them to have a place to devil in: yet I do not allow such as covetously join living to living, of what kind or degree of men soever they be. Io. Whitgifte. To the abusing of the. 14. of the Acts by the Admonition, nothing is answered by T. C. nor to the. 5. of Esay. Chap. 2. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 51. Sect. 1 But I see no cause why one good and diligent Pastor may not rather be credited with more flocks, than a slothful, unskilful, or negligent with one. You think (I suppose) that there be divers parishes in England which might be joined in one, and so committed to one man, and why may they not be so in like manner, when they be distinct? T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 1 And hereupon also is ended another question that the Answerer maketh, whether one may have many flocks, which is, whether one shepherd may be many shepherds, one watchman many watchmen. For if his residence be necessary in one place, than he ought to content himself with one. Io. Whitgifte. My question is this: why one man may not aswell have divers parishes, when they be distinct, as he may when they be joined together? for the compass, the number, and the distance of place, is all one: you confess Pa. 34. lin. 10. that the one may be, and the reform Churches in France did so use it, where (as I am credibly informed, and you before seem to affirm) six Towns or mother were committed to one Pastor. This being lawful, I see not why the other should not be so in like manner: neither have you answered to any one word in this part. Chapter. 2. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 51. Sect. 2. I speak not this to encourage any man to take more upon him than with a good conscience he may well discharge. And I would wish you to abstain from judging too far, when you see a man that hath more livings, use himself uprightly and carefully in them all, and otherwise profitably to the whole Church. T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 2. And whereas you would have men charitably judge of those, which take many livings▪ surely if so be that he taketh many flocks, not to the intent to have more living to maintain an ambitious pomp, or to satisfy a greedy desire of having more than enough, but to this end, that he may bring in a more plentiful harvest unto the Lord: it were good that he would be content to take but that living of all his flocks, which he now hath of one, especially where one is able to keep and maintain him and his family honestly. Else let him hear what (*) you might have spoken in the singular number, for any pl ralitie you 〈◊〉 used. Counsels & others have thought of those which have more benefices than one. Io. Whitgifte. You keep no order in answering my book, but place and displace at your pleasure, only to this end, as it should seem, that you would not have your Reader perceive what you omitted unanswered. But I will follow you, and examine what Counsels and other have thought of such as have more benefits than one: for in this portion you utter but words, and take upon you to judge men's intents and purposes, and to prescribe them their stipend. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 3 In the. 15. Canon of the Council of (a) T. C. useth most corrupt Council for his defence. Nice, it is commanded that no clerk should be placed in two Churches, and he addeth the reasons, whereof the first is, that it is a point of merchandise, Mat. 6. and of filthy gain. The second, that (*) no man can serve two masters. The third, 1. Cor. 7. that every one aught to (*) tarry in that calling, wherein he is called. Io. Whitgifte. T. C. allegeth the second Council of Nice to dete mine controversies. It should seem that you would gladly make men believe, (and it is very like that you yourself are also persuaded) that this Council was the first Council of Nice: For else why do you in the next section place Damasus, and name the second tome of the Counsels, when as Damasus was long time before this your Council of Nice, and the same Council is in the second tome of the Counsels. Lest therefore the Reader may be deceived, I let him to understand, that this Canon here by you alleged, is a Canon of the second Council of Nice, held about Anno. 795. or. 781. and one of the corruptest Counsels that ever was, wherein not only praying to Saints, & adoring of Relics, but also worshipping of Images. etc. was confirmed. But yet let us examine this Canon of that Council. In the end of that same The Canon of the second Council of Nice examined. Canon it is thus written: Et haec quidem in hac regia civitate, in his autem quae extra sunt locis, propter hominum inopiam permi titur: And these things are to be understanded in this regal City: for in those places that be without, it is permitted for the scarsi ie of people. Whereby it is plain, that the meaning of the Canon is, that no one man should have committed unto him more great cities than one: but that he might have more towns or villages committed to his charge, it is manifest by those words of that Canon that I have rehearsed. And therefore Gratian himself doth thus expound that Canon: Sed duae ecclesiae intellig untur ecclesiae duarum ciuitatum, in quibus nullus debet conscribi: But by two Caus. 21. q. 1. Clericus. churches are meant the churches of two cities, wherein no man aught to be appointed. And for the proof thereof he allegeth this Canon of the Council of Chalcedon: Clericum in duarum ecclesijs ciuitatum conscribi non oportet: A Clerk may not be appointed in the Churches of two cities. And the Gloss upon that place saith: that one man may be entitled in two Churches, if the Churches be poor: or if the Bishop do dispense and think it convenient, or if the number of clerk be few: or if he be entitled to the one, and have the other in commendan, or if the one be near to the other. And the authority of this Gloss is as sufficient as the credit of that Council of Nice, if the Canon did not expound itself. I omit the absurd allegation of the Scriptures to confirm this their purpose. For the place Mat. 6. is to be understanded of contrary masters: and that in the. 1. Cor. 7. of the kind of vocation, and not of the place. He that doth his duty in more places, is lawfully called to them all, as I have said before. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 4. And in the (*) An oversight, for it is in the first Tome. second tome of the Counsels, Damasus in his fourth Epistle likeneth those that set over their charges unto other, unto harlots, which assoon as they have brought forth their children, by and by give them to be nourished of others, to the intent that they might the sooner fulfil their inordinate lusts. Io. Whitgifte. You are deceived: it is in the first tome of Counsels, and therefore the more like it is, that you take the former Council to be the first Council of Nice: But such dealing is usual with you: if you had meant plainly, you would have said, the second Council of Nice, and not simply the Council of Nice, which argueth either that you were deceived yourself, or else sought to deceive others. This place of Damasus is nothing at all to your purpose, which you might easily Damasus alleged to a wrong purpose. have perceived, if you had read that Epistle. For he only there speaketh against such as were called Chorepiscopi, who were in degree inferior to Bishops, and yet did they despise to be counted no better than Priests. There were certain Bishops in Damasus time, that gave themselves wholly to idleness and pleasure, and committed their office to such, as were called Chorepiscopi, as it is evident in that Epistle: neither doth he mean any other charge than consecrating of Priests, Deacons, and virgins, imposition of hands, blessings, erecting of altars, dedicating of Churches, and such like, which were taken properly to pertain to the Bishop, and yet notwithstanding was by some Bishops passed over to such Chorepiscopi. This negligence of bishops in such matters Damasus condemneth, together with the office of Chorepiscopus. And this is the whole drift of Damasus in that Epistle, as it is most evident. And therefore saith Leo (as Gratian reporteth) Dist. 68 Hi (meaning chorepiscopi) propter Distinct. 68 insolentiam suam, qua officia episcoporum sibi usurpant, ab ecclesia prohibiti sunt: These men for their insolency, whereby they usurp the offices of Bishops, are excluded from the Church. So that here is not one word in this whole Epistle against Curates, and such as Pag. 50. lin. . are left to supply the Pastor's absence. Moreover you yourself in the beginning of this page confess, that a man being absent may leave his Deputy in his place. But yet here you have forgotten your purpose, that is, to prove that one man may not have more benefices: in which cause also it appeareth that you are destitute of proofs, being compelled to use only corrupt authorities? Chap. 2. the sixte Division. T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 5. Whether it were better that one diligent Pastor should have many flocks, than a negligent and unskilful Pastor one, is not the question: for we say neither is lawful, nor aught to be done. Io. Whitgifte. You say much, but prove little. I think it much better that one man have divers, than that any should be untaught. For I speak of that time wherein there is not a competent number of preachers to be had for all places. It passeth to see how you have dismembered my book, even of purpose to avoid the answering of divers things, and even very here you have omitted one principal point. For I ask also this question, why that Parishes being distinct, may not aswell be committed to one man, as the same might be, if they were made all one, as you would have them? for the distance of places, and the number of people is not altered: only the ease of the Pastor, and greater pains of the people is procured. For whereas the Pastor before came to them, now must they take pains to come to him. But such things you will not vouchsafe the answering, because in deed you can not. Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 50. Sect. 1 For who divided Parishes? and who hath authority to join Of the division of parishes. them? did not Dionysius a Monk, and Pope of Rome? for it is thus written of him, Tom. 1. conci. Dionysius Monacbus Papa presbyteris ecclesias divisit, & coemiteria, parochiasque & Dioeceses constituit: Dionysius a Monk and Pope divided to priests Churches and Churcheyardes, and appointed Parishes and Dioceses. T. C. Page. 50. Sect. 6. 7. Do you believe that, which you set down of Denis the Monk and Pope, that he devised and divided parishes? If you do not, why would you have us believe it? If the law doth condemn him that turneth a blind man out of the way, or layeth a block before him, what doth it him, which would put out the eyes of them that see their way already? I have showed, and Assertions without proof. the matter is plain, that the Lord divided national Churches into parishes and congregations. So that if S. Paul have not the word of parish, yet he hath the thing. And those that have read stories, know that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (which we call a Diocese, and which containeth with us numbers of parishes) was at the first, taken to be the same that parish is, and used a great while before Denis was born, or monkery begotten. And as for Coemeteria or Churcheyardes, if you mean those places that lie next round about the Churches, as they came in with the Monk, they might well have go out with him, for any profit either to the Church, or common wealth by them. But if you mean as the Greek word, which is there used, signifieth, a fit place where the bodies of men sleep, and are buri , attending the time of their rising up again in the iaste and general day of judgement, than these Churcheyardes were in the time of the Law, and in the primitive Church in all times, when there was any outward policy of the Church, and especially when the Church had quietness and peace; that it might without danger (*) bury their dead in some certain convenient Luke. 7. place thereunto appointed, which was, for fear of the infection commonly, as it may Euseb. 7. be gathered, in the field out of the Town, unto the which use and custom (if it might be done lib. 13. convemently) it were well that we were restored, both because it is more safe for the preservation of the Towns and Cities in their health, as also for that through the superstition, which hath been of being buried rather in the Church, than in the churchyard, in the Chancel rather than in the Church, nearer the high altar, than further of the remnauntes whereof are in a great number of men's hearts yet, which might much be helped by the bringing in of that custom again, of burying the dead in some honest place out of the town thereto appointed. Io. Whitgifte. I have told you my Author, and if you will not credit one witness, you shall That Denis divided parishes. have more. Denis himself doth testify it in an Epistle that he writ to Severus a Bishop. Damasus saith the same, so doth Marianus Scotus, Platina, and others. Polidor Virgil doth something plainly open the matter in these words: Pol. Virg. lib. 4. c. 9 de invent. Circiter annum Domini. 267. Dionysius tam presbyteris urbis Romae, quàm aliarum gentium templa, coemiteria & parochias quas dicunt, divisit: Praeterea Episcopis dioecaeses distribuit, mandavitque, ut unusquisque suis finibus ac limitibus contentus esset: Parochias (ut hoc demonstremus) nostri appellant singula templa Dioecesis, & eorum territorium certis terminis distinctum. etc. About the. 267. year of our Lord, Dionysius divided Churches, Churcheyardes, and Parishes (as they call them) aswell to the Priests of Rome, as of other nations: furthermore he distributed Diocese unto Bishops, and commanded that every one should content himself with his own bounds and limits: our men call Parishes (that we may make this plain) the several Churches of a Diocese, and their territory limited within certain bounds. etc. Wherefore take heed lest you cast dust in your own eyes, & blind yourself: for this of Denis is not denied of any that I can read. Where hath the Lord divided national Churches into parishes and congregations? Why do you not note the place? or where hath S. Paul the thing, though not the word or name? or what stories say, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken to be the same that we call now a parish? Here is much spoken, but nothing proved. This Denis was Bishop of Rome about the year of our Lord. 263. which peradventure How parishes are by man distinguished. you have not considered. But to put all this matter out of doubt, and to open that (the ignorance whereof maketh you so hot in this matter) there was diverse congregations and Churches in the Apostles time, but yet was there not any limitation of place, or certain compass of ground certainly appointed: for that was left to the discretion of man to enlarge, or to contract, as it should be thought from time to time most convenient: and who can once imagine or suppose that Christ, or his Apostles did appoint the limits of Diocese or Parishes? or who knoweth it not, that it is in the power of such as have authority, to enlarge or diminish Diocese or Parishes, as they shall see it expedient. I know nothing to the contrary, but that the Parish, whose bonds and limits be but one mile compass, may be made ten mile compass, and contrariwise. It is well said of one, that distributio gregis nunc extenditur, nunc coarctatur pro hominis arbitrio: The distribution of a flock is sometime enlarged, and sometime made less, according to the judgement of man. And this matter needeth not to seem so strange unto you, for if you had been so diligent a reader of the book of Acts and Monuments, as you boast yourself to be, then might you have read there, that the Council of Nice did appoint to certain Bishops the limits and bounds of their Provinces and Dioceses. But what should I labour in a matter so manifest? If by Coemiteria or Churcheyardes those places be meant that be about the churches, where we use to bury the dead (as it is most like they be) then hear I no reason at all Why you should in such manner speak of them, except you will pluck down whatsoever hath beforetime been appointed, be it never so ancient, and the use thereof convenient and necessary. There is no doubt but by Coemiteria are meant places of burial, which because they have been (as you confess) at all times certain, especially in the peace of the Church, it is meet that they should so still remain. And for as much as the places now used, if they were appointed by Denis (as it is most like) are fitly appointed, and most conveniently in most places, you have alleged no cause as yet, why they should be removed, but the self same cause, that may be in like manner used to remove the Church, and whatsoever else hath been devised by any man, be it otherwise never so necessary, convenient, or comely. But I will not follow you in these digressions, where you only spend paper with words void of proof. If you quote Eusebius. 7. Lib. 13. to prove that the place of burial was in the fields, there can be no such thing gathered of his words: and if you quote him to prove that the word signifieth a place of burial, you go about to prove that, which no man denieth. Of Ministers that can not preach, and of giving licences to preach. Tract. 6. Some may be Ministers that can not preach. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. The tenth. Then the Ministers were (*) Philip. 2. 20. 25. Preachers: now bore readers. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3. Colos. 1. 7. Luke. 9 2 Your places of Scripture alleged to prove that Ministers Unapt profess of the Admonition. were then Preachers, prove not that all were then Preachers. The place in the second to the Philippians. 20. verse, is this: For I have no man like minded, who will faithfully care for your matters. And in the. 25. verse: But I suppose it neeessarie to send my brother Epaphroditus to you, my companion in labour, and fellow soldier, even your messenger, and he that ministered unto me such things as I wanted. Collossians. 1. verse. 7. As you also learned of Epaphras our dear fellow servant, which is for you a faithful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec? How prove these places that all Ministers then preached? That of Luke, chapter. 9 proveth aswell that they cured diseases, as that they preached, and therefore out of that place you might aswell conclude that all Ministers ought to be curers of sicknesses, aswell as preachers. This I write, only to let you understand your vanity and ignorance in quoting so many Scriptures, to so small purpose. Io. Whitgifte. Ad haec ne verbum quidem: but only to the place of the ninth of Luke, and that out of place. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 52. Sect. ult. I wish that every minister were a preacher, but that being unpossible as the state is now, I see not how you can condemn reading Faith cometh by reading. ministers, seeing reading is necessary in the Church, & faith cometh aswell by reading the scriptures in the book, as by rehearsing of them without book. In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written: Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel. etc. Thou shalt read the words of this book before all Israel. etc. S. Paul saith in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt. etc. Whatsoever is written. etc. But I never herded reading of the scriptures, The Zuinfildians condemn reading of scripture. reading of prayers, reading of Homilies, taken out of the scripture condemned, but only by the Authors of this book, and by the zuinfildians. T. C. Page. 50. Sect. ult. & Pag. 51. Sect. 1 If you should beget, and be a father of many books, and all your children like their elder brother, you would (without better advise) shake many grounds of our religion. For here again you wish that all pastors were able to teach, but that being unpossible (as the state is now) you are content with Pastors or ministers, that can do nothing but read. You throughout your whole book make this a marvelous good estate, and always turn the best side outward, and when men go about to urge the deformities thereof, to the end they might be remedied, than you lay open the shame and nakedness of it, and make it greater, than it is in deed. For as I have showed before, the Church standeth not so much in need of your reading ministers, as you would make the world believe. And although it be a great deformity, and sore plague of the Church, which you here speak of, and confess at unwares, yet you will let no man come near to heal it. There be some make a gain by sores, and sore legs, and therefore they have a medicine to keep their wounds always green, that they should not heal. I hope you do not of purpose keep the Church in this estate, but this I dare say, that the chief of your gain, and of your honour, consists and is grounded in the ruins of the Church, and therefore I desire you to took unto it. Io. Whitgifte. I omit whatsoever you here speak against my person, for I am purposed to abstain The causes of the lack of able ministers. from requiting you in like sort, only I will answer for myself where you labour to slander me. The cause of lack of a sufficient number of meet ministers in this Church, is neither the religion professed, nor the government that is used, nor yet the governors: But partly the cruelty of the times past, wherein numbers of meet ministers have been consumed: partly the un willingness of men in this present time, which have not that zeal to enter into this calling, that is to be wished: and partly (nay chief & principally) you & your schisms, which have caused some to cast off their ministery wholly, some to forsake their pastoral charges, and yet to keep their Prebends and other livings: some to deprave the ministery, condemn it, and by all means possible alienate as many from it, as they can. And therefore nothing that I confess of the scarcity of meet & able ministers, derogateth any thing either from the doctrine professed in this Church, or from the kind of government, or the Magistrates: but rather commendeth the same, because notwithstanding all the former impediments, yet hath it a number of excellent ministers, & doth continually breed more. If any confession tend to the condemnation of any, it is of you & your adherents, who have more hindered & slandered the Gospel in this realm of England, than the Papists either have done, or could possibly do. And I am fully persuaded, that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church, is lack of discipline towards you, who be so far from healing any sore in the Church, that the more you be suffered, the greater do you wound it: And in very deed the reformation you pretend, is nothing but a mere confusion, or rather subversion both of the Church and common wealth also. My honour and gain is but very small, yet it is more, than I am worthy of, but I trust the time will come, when as such boiling affections uttered in so spiteful a manner, will be made manifest: and I pray God it be not imputed unto you in that day. If my honour and gain be other than may stand with the good and prosperous estate of the church, I am ready to yield it up whensoever I shall by due authority be required. In the mean time, God be judge betwixt you and me. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be such, as you speak of, that it will scarce yield three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocese, may you therefore make reading ministers? In deed if the Apostle had made this a council only, and no commandment, that Pastors of churches should be able to teach, than your saying might have been born. But seeing that S. Paul hath commanded expressedly, that he should be able to teach, and Tim. 1. 3 to convince the gaynsayers, I would learn of you gladly, what necessity there is, which can Tit. 1. 'cause a man to break the moral law of God, to bring in a tradition of man. You may as well break any other commandment of God for necessities sake, as break this, being comprehended in the first table. And tosay that these that can only read, must be tolerated in the Church as ministers, is to say because you can have no Pastors in the Churches, you will have idols, for so will I not doubt to call them, although through ignorance of that which they do, some may be good men. But yet in respect of the place that they occupy, they are idols, for they stand for that, and make show of that which they are not, and admit you them as often as you will, the Lord pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him, which have no * knowledge. Qzee. 6. But let us hear your reason (a) It is your own reason. there must be reading in the church, therefore there must be ministers, which can do nothing else. Then we may reason thus to. There must be breaking of bread, and distributing of the cup in the Church, and pouring on water, therefore whosoever is able to break aloof of bread, or to lift a cup of wine, or to pour on water on the body of the child, may be made a minister. And did you never read, that there were readers in the Church, when there were no reading ministers? But of that of reading of the scriptures & prayers in the Church there will be a fit place to speak afterward, where it shall be showed how unjustly you surmise these things of them▪ Touching Homilies shall be spoken more hereafter, where further occasion is given. Io. Whitgifte. Saint Paul. 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. showeth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor aught to have: but he doth not say, that if none can be found, or not a sufficient number, in whom all these qualities do concur, that then the Church shall rather be destitute of ministers, than have such: for there were in his time that swerved from this rule, and yet was he glad they preached. Of the ministers of this Church of England, though diverse be ignorant, yet inaye they by study and diligent reading of the Scriptures, Catechisms, Homilies, and other godly and necessary books so profit in knowledge, that although they be not able publicly to preach, yet may they be able privately to exhort, and otherwise also by Reading the Scriptures and Homilies, according to the order appointed, greatly profit the people of God. But what should I contend with you in this matter? This Church of England in this point professeth nothing, that is not allowed by the general Confession of the Churches in Helvetia, from the which I think you will not dissent. That Confession as I told you before, hath these words: We condemn all unmeet ministers, not endued with gifts necessary for a shepherd Confess. Heluet. that should feed his flock: howbeit we acknowledge that the harmless simplicity of some shepherds in the old church, did sometimes more profit the church, than the great exquisite, and fine or delicate, but a little to proud learning of some others. Wherefore we reject not nowadays the good simplicity of certain, so that they be not altogether unskilful of God and his word. There is nothing in that. 6. of Ozee that serveth your turn. You say, that I reason thus: There must be reading in the Church, therefore there must be Ministers that can do nothing else. You know what is written Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur. etc. The mouth that speaketh lies, slayeth the soul. etc. I would it were not so usual with you. My argument is this, that for so much as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this church of England in all places, therefore there may be reading ministers; that is such ministers as by reading the scriptures & other books appointed unto them, may profit the people & instruct them, for reading is necessary in the Church. etc. This is my reason. That which you use is a child of your own begetting, it is none of mine, as the Reader can not choose but perceive. The reason that followeth of breaking bread and distributing the cup. etc. is used but for a jest, which aught not to be in serious matters, & therefore I leave it to them that are disposed to laugh, when they should rather weep. I know there were readers of old in the Church, but they had not authority to administer the sacraments, as our ministers have, and of necessity must have, and Tract. 9 ca 2. the. 2. division. lawfully may have also, as it shall be hereafter declared. Chap. 2. the fourth Division. T. C. Page. 51. Sect. 7. I do not use to maintain the places, which are quoted, although they be truly alleged, for the (*) Nay, it is because you can no , for you want no good will. causes, which I have before mentioned, but yet I can not but speak of this place of saint Luke, for fear of the danger that may ensue. For if this be a good reason, the the place of S. Luke may not be used to prove that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministery, because in that same place is made mention of curing of diseases, which is but a temporal thing, & followed the ministery, but for a time, than the commandment of S. james, * that the elders of the Church should James. 5. pray for those that are sick, is now no commandment, because putting on of hands, and anointing of them, that they might recover their health, hath no place, and by this means you will pull from us as many places of the new testament, as you did before of the old. Io. Whitgifte. You would no doubt maintey all their places, if you could: for the quotations be the substance of that book, & the thing that most persuaded the Reader, which credited all things there written without examination, & thought it must of necessity be true, being so confirmed by the scriptures. And surely you could not have greatlier condemned the authors of that Admonition, than in suffering so many quotations of there's to pass without defence. For what wickedness can there be greater, than to abuse the Scriptures in maintaining of sects and errors. The place of Luke is not answered: the words of the text be these: and he sent Luke. 9 them to preach the kingdom of God, and to cure the sick. etc. No man living can conclude of this place, the one more, than he can do the other, & your words be but your own: There be other places a number that be more general than this, to prove preaching by: this was peculiar and proper to the disciples, as the whole circumstances of the place declare, for they are also commanded to take nothing with them in their journey, neither staves. etc. To preach is perpetual, but it can not be gathered of this place, that none aught to be admitted into the ministery but such as can preach, because it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles, as the other circumstances do prove. The commandment of Saint james is general, for he telleth what all sick men aught to do, and the ministers likewise that resort to the sick, and therefore though the anointing with oil, which was a sign of the gift of healing, be taken away because the gift is ceased, yet doth praying remain still, and is perpetual, and not only proper to some ministers of the Church, but common to all. Wherefore the places be not like: the one being spoken peculiarly to the disciples, the other generally to all ministers. Oflicences to preach. Chap. 3. Admonition. And if any be oh well disposed to preach in their own charges, they may not without my lords licence. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3. YOu here find fault that if a preacher be disposed to preach in Not to preac without license. his cure, he may not do it without my lords licence. Where the word of God is professed, & Christian magistrates govern, there it is meet that no man should take upon him any function except he be by the Magistrate, (to whom it doth appertain) thereunto admitted: And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypocrites, heretics, schismatics, & other evil disposed people, which study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church, & to occupy the people with their factions, it is necessary that none should be admitted to preach in any place, without he be thereunto licensed by the Bishop, who aught to have a diligent care in that matter. I suppose you are not of that mind, that men may now in this Church under Christian magistrates preach without licence: it hath always been the opinion of wise, learned, & godly men, that since the Apostles time, none were ordinarily called to the office of preaching, but such as were called of God by man: only Anabaptists, and some other sect of heretics teach the contrary. T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9 & Pag. 52. Sect. 2. What dealing is this to bring men in suspicion of that, which they never thought of, as though there were any word that founded to this, the a man should put himself into the office of preaching, without the approbation of those (*) A doubtful saying. men, to whom it doth pertain. Their complaint is, that those which are ordained Pastors, and therefore to preach, can not do it without further licence: as if a man should be charged to do a thing forthwith, and then he that charges him, bindeth him hand & foot, that he can not do it unless he will loose him. The bishops inhable him to teach, & point him a place to teach in, & yet they will not let him teeth▪ unless he have a further licence. It h be an heretic or schismatic, or suspected of any such thing▪ why is he admitted, or being admitted, why is he suffered to be so much as a reader n the church and because you could not answer this, therefore you set up a fancy of yours to confute. And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉, and you make triumphs, where there is no victory. They will say unto you, that not only under a godly magistrate, but not in the time of persecution any man aught to ache upon him any function in the church▪ unless he be there unto called by men, except he have a wondered calling, which is rare, & must be iligently examined by them, which have it, 〈◊〉 nder pretence of the spirit of God, whom they make author of their calling, it fall out the 〈◊〉 be but their own he long affection that hath thrust them in: so far they are from the frenzy of Anaba tists, which you by a confutation of thee, which they never affirmed, would seem to stain them with. Io. Whitgifte. This Repl e consists partly of equivocations, & partly of 〈◊〉 suppositions. For where you say, the no man should put himself into the office of preaching, without the approbation of those men, to whom it doth apertein: you speak ambiguously, & therefore you must explicate what you mean by those to whom it doth apertein: whether the people & seniors, as you call them, or the bishops or the civil Magistrate, or such, to whom the civil Magistrate doth commit the judging of such matters. For the Auabaptistes confess the they must be called of their churches, but they deny the authority of the civil magistrate herein, & the authority of such also as he doth 〈◊〉 for that end & purpose. Again, you here suppose, that no man may preach out of his own cure, & therefore being once admitted oh preach there, he needeth no further licence▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preach, except he have 〈◊〉: to be hort, that 〈◊〉▪ heretics, schismatics, may be known forthwith, 〈◊〉 being suspected, by and by removed out of the ministery▪ all which suppositio s been untive, and therefore this Replis full of great absuraities. Their meaning is plain, that though there be just cause, why the Bishop should inhibit them from preaching, both for their contentions, and also for their errors, yet would they preach whether the bishop will or not, for the case is their own. They were admitted to preach in their cures, and elsewhere, so long as they used themselves modestly, quietly, and taught sound doctrine: but after they began to divide the Church, and make contention in it, they were restrained from preaching until such time, as upon their submission and reformation, they should be there unto admitted again: hinc illae lachrymae, this is the matter, and hereto you answer, ne gry quidem. Of the apparel of Ministers. Tract. 7. The causes why they refuse the apparel, examined. Chap. 1. the first Division. T. C. Page. 52. Sect.. 3. The cap, the surplis, and tippet, are not the greatest matters we strive for, which notwithstanding hath been informed to the Churches beyond sea, to the end that the judgements of some might be the easilyer had against us. Howbeit we think it an attire unmeet for a minister of the Gospel to wear, and the Surplis especially more than the other two, because such hurtful Ceremonies are so much more dangerous, as they do approach nearer the service▪ or worship of God, Io. Whitgifte. Yet in the beginning such was your pretence: neither was there any thing else that you contended for: as it is well known to all men that had to deal with you, or heard of you. I am certainly persuaded, that if the Churches beyond sea did fully understand your proceeding, together with the state of this Church of England, that they would as bitterly writ against you, and as willingly condemn you, as ever they did the Anabaptistes. But to your reasons against the apparel. Chap. 1. the second Division. T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 4. The causes why we are loath to meddle with them, are not as many are born in hand, * This assertion is contrary to your practice. Monuments of idolatry may be used if they have any profit. because that we think any pollution so to stick to the things themselves, as that the wearing of them had any such power to pollute and make unclean the users of them: Neither yet only because the Papists have superstitiously used them, but because they having been abominably aunsed by them, have no use nor profit in those things or ends, wherein and whereunto they are now used. And further, that they are also hurtful, being monuments of Idolatry, where as to bring them in and establish them, it behoveth that there should some manifest profit of them appear. For it is not enough to say, it is indifferent in the own nature, Ergo meet to be done: but as the circumstances of the times and people, and profit or hurt of our brethren do require or not require, so must it be done or not be done. For in these things which are called indifferent, God will have the use of them to be measured, that it be referred first to his glory, then to the profit of others. Io. Whitgifte. It is true that is commonly said: that such as be in error neither long agree with other, neither yet with themselves. Some of you have taught, that pollution doth stick to the things themselves, as that the wearing of them had power to pollute and make unclean the wearoes: and a number be carried away with that doctrine: else why do they refuse to come to our Churches, our sermons, yea to keep us company, or to salute us? why spit they in our faces, revile us in the streets, and show such like villainy unto us, and that only because of our apparel? Is not all this a manifest declaration that they think us therewith to be so polluted, that what so ever we speak or do is polluted, in like manner, even the word of God and his sacraments? and where have they learned this, but of you and others your partners? Likewise what was the chief ground of this opinion, how did you move the people to this extremity, and what have they yet to speak in the defence of their excessive raging? forsooth that this gear came from the Pope, was invented by antichrist, and therefore abominable, and not to be used. This only reason they have, and this is the common place that you have hitherto bet upon. But now being convinced by manifest reasons, and seeing the manifold absurdities, that waiteth upon such assertions, you pass over the matter as though you had never been stained with it, and say the causes why you are loath to meddle with them, are not as The apparel not refused because the Papists use it. many are born in hand. etc. So that in effect this is now by you confessed, that those things which the Papists have superstitiously used, yea which they have abominably abused, if they have any use or profit en those things or ends, wherein and whereunto they are now used, be lawful, and not to be refused. And therefore we must (I think) have no more to do with this Argument: The Pope invented them, Ergo, they are not to be used: but this must be the question, whether they have any use or profit in those things or ends, wherein or whereunto they are now used. And this shift is invented to take away all objections, which may be of Churches, of Bells, of Pulpits, and such like. But let us proceed to the reasons. You have not yet proved that they have no use, or that they profit not in those things and ends, wherein and whereunto they are now used: and therefore I will take that for no reason as yet: although I have sufficientely answered unto it, where I have spoken of Ceremonies, and in this treatise also that followeth Tract. 2. of this matter. You say further that they are also hurtful, being monuments of Idolatry. etc. Whereby you acknowledge that notwithstanding they be monuments of idolatry, yet may they be brought in and established if some manifest profit of them appear, so that this also is granted, that monuments of idolatry may be brought in and established upon this condition, if they be profitable. That which followeth in this portion of your reply touching things indifferent, I consent unto, with this proviso, that it is not every man's part in the Church to judge and determine, what the circumstance of the times and people maketh profitable or hurtful (for then should we never be quiet) but there's only, to whom the government of the Church is committed: to the which proviso if you do consent, we are in this matter thus far agreed. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 52. Sect. 4. 5. Now, that they are not profitable and hurtful, it also may appear, if we consider them by all the kinds of men in the realm. The Papists are either stubborn or weak, and in respect of both these, they cannot be but hurtful. The weak I call those that have made some step from popery to the gospel, and of whom there is good hope that they may be fully got to the Gospel: but these are harmed by the use of these vestments, for they take occasion of falling at them, because they think that the sacraments get reverence by them, and the ministery is commended by such apparel wearing, and think that the sacraments want something of that they should have, if they be not used: Whereupon are hard oftentimes these voices: I will not communicate unless he wear a surplis. But this offence and occasion of falling is confirmed by the use of these garments, therefore in respect of such men, they are hurtful. Io. Whitgifte. All this is spoken without proof, and it is very untrue that the weak Papist is hurt in any respect by wearing this apparel: they take such garments as things pertaining to comeliness and order, and so aught they to do. Neither did I ever in my life hear that these garments hindered one jot any from coming to the gospel. But admit all this were true (as it is most untrue) why should it not aswell by doctrine and teaching be removed, as other superstitious opinions be in these things, which you can be content still to remain. These voices, I will not communicate, unless he wear a surplis, may sometimes come upon just cause, when the good subject seeth the minister which aught to be an example of obedience, stubbornly and wilfully show example to the contrary: and sometime it may come of waywardness when men be disposed to contend: but surely I do not think that any man, which is persuaded to communicate with us in the Sacraments, can think that they be either the better or the worse for the external habit of the minister. They be dissuaded from far greater matters than that, and therefore it is not to be thought that they will stick in such trifles. But ad t it were so, is it not as great an error to think that the Sacraments be polluted with the apparel, as it is to think, that they want something, which they should have, if the apparel be lacking? Yes truly: and therefore to take away both the errors, I think it most convenient, the apparel be used, and these errors by doctrine to be confuted. Chap. 1. the fourth Division. T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 6. Again, although I have knowledge, and know that the wearing of a surplice is lawful for A 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. me, yet an other, which hath not knowledge, is by my example edi ied or strengthened to wear a Surp sse, whereof he can tell no ground why he should wear it, and so sinneth against his con : and for this cause S. Paul concludeth, that that which a man may oh in respect of himself, may not be done, and is not lawful to be done in respect of other. Io. Whitgifte. If to wear a surplis, were an offence to the weak, or if there were not manifest The weak are not offended, but they which account themselves most strong. grounds in Scripture, (such I mean as command obedience to superiors) to prove the wearing of the surplis to be lawful, then were it some thing that you say. But seeing such only be offended therewith as account themselves most strong, and condemn other of infirmity: seeing also that obedience to Magisirates in such indifferent things, hath manifest grounds in scripture, and to doubt of obedience in such matters, is in eff cte, to pluck the Magistrate his sword out of his hand, this reason hath not so much as any similitude of probability in it. Is there any minister of the Church, (for of such only is the Surplis required) that will rather be moved to wear a surplis, by the example of an other, than by the consideration of his duty towards the law, and 〈◊〉 of the Church, by due authority in a lawful and indifferent thing appointed? you might make the same reason serve to pluck down the Church, the Pulpit, the Bells, yea to overthrow all orders, and all laws in things indifferent, which all have the same ground of obedience that the surplis hath. In the Conf ssion of the dutch Church in London, which is allowed by the Things indifferent change their nature be g commanded or forbidden, Confess. Ec les. Belgiog rman. Church of GENEVA, and divers other reform Churches (whereof I have made mention before) it is thus written of things indifferent: Things otherwise indifferent of themselves, after a sort change their nature, when by some comma ndement they are either commanded or forbidden, because neither they can be omitted contrary to the commandment, if they be once commanded neither done, contrary to the prohibition, if they be prohibited, as it appeareth in the Ceremonial law. So that the ground why a man should wear the surplis (being an indifferent thing as you confesse it to be) can not be unknown to any, but such as know not the ground of their obedience towards authority. It is true, that in some things indifferent a man must have respect to the weakness In what kind of 〈◊〉 things we ughte to have a resp ct of the weak. of his brother, and abstain from doing that, which he might lawfully do, rather than to off nde his brother. But that is in such indifferent things, as be not by any law commanded or forbidden, but left free to every man to do, or not to do: As, if to wear the Surplis, were by no law commanded, but left to every man's own disposition: then surely if there were any weak offended with the wearing of it, I ought to abstain for the weak his sake: but being by lawful authority commanded to wear it, if I should refuse so to do, I should offend against the Magistrate, and against God, who by his Apostle hath given this commandment, omnis anima potestatibus. etc. let every soul be subi ct to the higher power Rom. 1 . etc. which is to be understanded in all things, that are not against God. And therefore if any man be offended with me in so doing, the offence is taken it is not given. Chap. 1. the fifth Division. T. C. Page. 52. Sect. ult. Again for the stubborn Papists, they take hereupon occasion to speak evil of, and to bl spheme the truth of the gospel, saying that our religion cannot stand by itself, unless it lee e upon the staff of their ceremonies, and persuade themselves that those were very well devised by their Popes, that they that are their nimies to their religion, cannot be without. And herv on they ache occasion to hope that their other trumpet e and baggage will in the and come in again, which ca seth them to be more frozen in their wickedness, and shut their ears unto the true h, which possibly they would hear, if all hope of bringing in of their Popery were cut off. Io. Whitgifte. This is but a mere fancy: for first, it was brought into the Church before their Popes whom they hold upon, invaded that seat, as it is afterwards declared. Secondly, they be not matters that they make any great account of. Thirdly, they know fulwel, that we could be without them: and that we (but only for obedience sake) do not much esteem of them. Wherefore this is an argument framed only upon light conjectures. But be it all this were true, shall we for their fancy or fond judgement refuse to do that, which is lawful, which we may d , and which we are bond to do? Or in making orders for the Church, must we inquire what their opinion will be? Then pluck down Churches▪ etc. for of them they make a greater reck ning, than they do of the surplice, or any other such like matter. I think verily that there is not one Papist in England that doth take occasion upon any thing retained in this Church, to hope that their other trumpery and baggage will in the end come in gain: neither is there any cause in respect of them, why they should so hope: and if they do, yet I doubt not but that they shall hop without that hope. But a man may imagine if he will that there is a man in the Moon, with a tree on his back. etc. and you cannot let him. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Page. 53. Lin. 5. And let it be observed that throughout the realm there are none that make such clamours, and outcries, and complaints for these ceremonies, as they and those, that they suborn. They pretend I confe see, the Queens maiestres Imunctions, and 〈◊〉 unto them, but who is so blind as seethe not that they have another meaning. For I appeal unto the consciences of all that know them, whether they do it for any obedience towards high majesty, whose death should be a thousand times better news unto them, than her grace's marriage. Io. Whitgifte. The more is the pity, that they should have such i st cause of clamoring, and that The clamours of Papists should more the ministers to more circumspection. those which should teach them obedience to God and their Prince, be examples to the contrary. A subtle and crafty Papist will be glad of any cause of quarreling: the more circumspect therefore aught the minister to be, in taking heed jest he give just cause of the same. But there be honest, godly, and zealous men also that cannot abide s che disorder and contempt, whom peradventure you would gladly strain with the note of Papistry, as your manner is: and for my part I think it to be the part of all dutiful subjects to keep laws and orders appointed, and to see other keep them also, if they be thereunto called. Surely he that is a Papist indeed, cannot wish well to her 〈◊〉, but if he communicate with us in the sacraments, hear the word preached, and come to our Churches, I will think and hope the best of him. But if he refuse so to do (as there be di ers such) so long as he so continueth, I must count him an enemy to religion, to the Church, and to the Prince, be he Papist, Anabaptist, or whatsoever. For he that in heart and in deed misliketh the religion, cannot like well of such as maintain the same. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 53. Sect. 1 There are also numbers of those, which have all antichristianity in such detestation, that they cannot abide the lest scrap of it, and when they see the ministers wear them, they are grieved in their hearts, and they begin somewhat to fear, lest this communicating with the Papists in apparel, should make some way to those which use them, the easier to admit other things, when they should be likewise commanded. And these brethren's minds are not to be lightly grieved, and the ministers, if they think to profit them, must cut away all occasion, whereby they may have an evil opinion of them. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine in his book against the Anabaptists after he had spoken some thing against The purity which can abide no imperfection, is devilish. the Puritans and Donatists', hath this saying worthy to be noted: Here therefore we may be admonished, that when as under the pretence of the study of perfection, we can tolerate no imperfection, either in the body or in the members of the Church, that then the Devil doth make us swell with pride, and doth seduce us by hypocrisy, that he might provoke us to forsake the flock of Christ: knowing assuredly that he doth obtain the victory, when he draweth us from the same. For seeing yther remission of sins or health, is in no other place, although we outwardly bear the countenance of an Angelical ☞ conversation, yet if we do with such boldness separate ourselves from the Christian fellowship, we are become Devils. If this be to be feared in such as show this prepostorous zeal against that which is blameworthy, what shall we think of those that under the pretence of zeal deface the minister, and the word that he preacheth, for doing that which is lawful, and the which of duty he aught to do. If the minister should apply himself to please the people, and such especially of whom you seem to speak in this place, his greatest study had need to be how to transform himself daily into a new shape. But most certain it is that you study to much to please the people: And that is the occasion of so many novelties, whereby they are most commonly delighted, est natura hominis novitatis avida. Chap. 1. the eight Division. T. C. Page. 53. Sect. 2. Seeing that therefore this kind of Ceremonies in apparel, harden the hearts of the Papists, and 'cause them to be the stiffer in their popery, hinder the weak from profyting in the knowledge of the Gospel, grieve the minds of the godly, are occasion of an evil opinion unto them of their ministers, we think that these ceremonies are to be removed, as not only not profitable (which they aught to be) but hurtful, if not to the ministers themselves that use them, yet to their people to whom they are commanded by God to have regard unto, in these things that are indifferent in their own natures. Now I will come to that, which you set down. Io. Whitgifte. Seeing that not one word of that is true: and if it were, yet the error and false persuasion of the mind rather to be reformed, than relented unto, I see no cause why this kind of apparel (being commanded) aught not to be used, except you will leave to every man liberty to do what him list, or suffer the fancies of some to rule Prince, Council, Bishops, Church and all. That ministers were known in times passed by distinct apparel▪ Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. Admonition. The eleventh. In those days known ( a 1. Samuel. 9 18. Mat. 26. 48 Mat. 26. 7 . ) by voice, learning, and doctrine: now they must be discerned from other by popish and antichristian apparel, as cap, gown, tippet. etc. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 53. Sect. ult. &. Pag. 54. Sect. 1. 2. To prove that in those days ministers were known by voice learning, Uayne and childish all gations. and doctrine, you cite the ninth of the first of Samuel: and the 26. of Matthew. In all that ninth Chapter of Samuel, there is not one word that maketh for this purpose, except you mean this, that when Saul asked of Samuel where the Seers house was, Samuel answered again that he was the Seer: If this be to be known by voice, learning, and doctrine, the ignorantest minister that is, may soon be known by his voice, learning, and doctrine: for if you ask him, where is such a man, he can answer you, I am he. In the. 26. of Matthew the first place, vers. 48. is this, Now he that betrayed him, had given them a token, saying, whosoever I shall kiss, that is he, lay hold on him. The multitude that came with judas, known christ by judas kissing of him, therefore, in those days ministers were known by voice, learning, and doctrine. The second place in that Chapter alleged, vers. 73. is this. They that stood by said unto Peter, surely thou art also one of them: for even thy speech bewrayeth thee. Peter was suspected by his speech to be a Galilean, and therefore one of Christ's Apostles, Ergo a minister was then known by voice, learning, An argument retorted upon the adversary and doctrine. You may aswell of that place gather thus. Peter preached not Christ then, but denied him, Ergo a minister must be known by denying of christ. Lord God, what dare not these men allege for their purpose. I know that the chief tokens whereby a minister aught to be known is doctrine and learning: but you childishly abuse the scripture, and play with the same. Now you say, ministers must be discerned from other, by Popish A minister may be known by his apparel. and Antichristian apparel, as cap, gown, tippet. etc. Do you think that because a minister ought to be known by his voice, learning, and doctrine, therefore he may not be also known by his apparel. john the Baptist had peculiar apparel, and was known by it: Christ had distinct apparel from other, for his coat had never a seam. T. C. Pag. 53. Sect. 3. 4. The places alleged by the Admonition, with others, which may be cited, howsoever you deride them are otwithstanding probable conienctures (*) They were quoted by the Admonition to prove that ministers were known by voice, learning, and doctrine, and you transfer them to apparel. that either Samuel, nor the Apostles, nor our saviour Christ did wear any distinct apparel from others, which lived in their times. For if Samuel being then the seer, had had a several apparel, which was proper to the seers, it is not like that Saul would have asked of himself where his house was. And if the Apostles had worn a several apparel from the 〈◊〉, they should not have been esteemed by so general and uncertain a note, as of speaking somewhat brodely, or as I may term it, Northenly, for it had been a surer note to have said thou art one of his Apostles, bycanse none weareth this apparel but his Apostles, where there was a great number that spoke Galilean like, which were not of his Apostles, nor disciples neither. But let these go. You say our saviour Christ had a several apparel, because he had a cote without seam. Assuredly you might use less scornfulness in rehearsing of other men's arguments if for no other cause, yet for this, that they might take more pity of yours. For what an argument is this? our favioure Christ did wear an under garment, which could not be well parted, but with the spoil or marring of it, therefore he ware a several apparel from the rest. It is true, john Baptist had a several apparel, and to help you, so had Elias, but to this end, that both by his unwonted apparel, and strange diet which he used oflocusts and wild honey, the extraordinaries of his ministery might be set forth, and the people the rather moved to inquire of his office, whom they saw to vary so much from the common customs of other men. But ministers now have no such extraordinary functions, therefore by that reason of yours, they should not be severed from other men, by any note of apparel. You say you know that the chief notes of a minister, are doctrine and learning, if you mean that the distinction of apparel must supply the rest, and that that also hath some force to commend their ministery, the Prophets and Apostles of our sautoure Christ, left us no (a) A table reason. perfect pattern of a minister, nor no sufficient glass to dress him by, whereof (b) Untrue, as shall appear. the most part never used any such several 〈◊〉 and none of them have leit any commandment of it. Io. Whitgifte. They be conjectures indeed, and mere conjectures but without all shadow of probability The unapt reasons of the Admonitors dissembled by T. C. or reason: and if you will give me leave so to coniectnre, I will prove any thing. But such slender conjectures argueth the slenderness of your proofs. The Admonition useth thonse places to prove that ministers were then known by voice, learning and doctrine, which how they or you can conclude of them, I confess, that I cannot imagine, except you will say, that Samuel said unto Saul I am the seer: and they that stood by said unto Peter-even thy speech bewrayeth thee: therefore ministers were known by voice, learning and doctrine: which is asmuch as though you would say, Saul known Samuel by Samuels own report, and a welshman is known by his tongue, rgo ministers are known by voice▪ learning, and doctrine: is not this a proper kind of reasoning? is this the reverence due to the scriptures, thus 〈◊〉 to abuse them? But say you, if Samuel had had a several apparel proper to the Seers, it was not like that Saul would have asked of him where his house was: Nay, you should rather have said that it is like that Saul being a rudesby, and brought up only in keeping of cattle, had never seen prophet before, and therefore could not know Samuel, what kind of apparel soever he had worn. And that this is true, that Saul did not know what a Séer meant, and that he did never see any before, it may appear in the same chapter. And therefore says M. Mart upon that. 18. verse of the. 9 Chapter. Saul is so rude in P. Martyr. the common wealth, and such a stranger from civil affairs, that he did not so much as know Samuel although he were both judge of the people, and the magistrate, and Prophet, and the captain of the host. Moreover M. Caluine upon the. 23. of Math. proveth out of the. 13. Chapter of Zach. Prophets known by a distinct apparel. Caluine. Zach. 13. that the prophets were distinguished and known from other men by a certain and peculiar form of s. And the very words of the 〈◊〉 fourth verse of that Chapter of Zacharie doth evidently prove it: for there the Lord aith; In that day shall the Prophets be ashamed. etc. neither shall they wear a rough garment to 〈◊〉▪ Upon the which words the note in the bible printed at Geneva is this: They shall no more wear Prophet's apparel to make their doctrine seem more holy▪ to the which also agreth M. 〈◊〉 upon the same place, and addeth these words: This is the sum, that this kind of vesture was not reproved in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as some men 〈◊〉 do wrist this place to condemn long gowns, and what soever doth not please their waywardness. etc. Whereby it is evident that the Prophets did wear, and were known by a peculiar kind of garment. If you inquire of the practice, we have divers examples: yea even of Samuel whom we now have in hand. For one thing that 〈◊〉 Saul, that he whom the witch had raised, was Samuel, was the de ption of his apparel. 1. Sam. 28. There cometh up an old man with a mantel upon him▪ And Saul perceived 1. Sam. 28. that it was Samuel. etc. It cannot be thought that Saul conceyned this opinion, because she named an old man, but because she added his mantel and kind of attireWe read likewise of Elyas. 2. Reg. 1. &. 2. that he had a hairy or rough mantel agreeing to the description in the Prophet Zacharie, and a leather girdle whereby he was known of Ahazia: And this is by you confessed. Elizeus succéedeth Elias both in office and vesture: And john Baptist did not only represent Elias his spirit, but also his kind of garment, for his rough garment of camels hear, and leather girdle are described by Saint Matthew cap. 3. I suppose now that the manifest scripture, the opinion of learned interpreters, and the practice of so many notable Prophets do sufficiently justify my assertion, and are able to improve your probable conjectures, as you term them. Touching Peter what kind of apparel soever he did wear, the matter is not great: it is the fond reason of there's that I reprove, which is too-too childish, as I have showed before: and yet may it be supposed that Peter used all the means he could, not to be known, and therefore whether he cast off his uppermost garment, or changed it, it may be a question. Furthermore, it was in the night time: finally, he was suspected by a maid to be one of Christ's disciples before he had spoken one word, as it appeareth, Io. 18. But to let all this pass, what kind of reasoning call you this? Peter was known by his voice, Ergo he was not known by his apparel: or this, Peter was known by his tongue to be a Galilcan, Ergo ministers must be known by voice, learning, and doctrine. Here you let slip without any defence at all, that which is alleged by the Admonition The Admo nition wanteth a procto out of the. 48. verse of the. 6. Chapter of matthew to the same purpose. No man can deny but Christ's apparel differed from the rest, and that this was a rare kind of habit, else would not the Evangelist Saint john cap. 19 have made so particular mention of it: wherefore, that which I say is true, that even then ministers of the Gospel might be known by their apparel, as Christ and john the Baptist: and therefore not to be so strange a matter, that ministers should also now differ from other men in their apparel. That which you speak of john Baptist, confirmeth my saying, which is, that ministers of the Gospel were then also known by their apparel: and if unwonted apparel did set forth john his ministery, and moved them the rather to inquire of his office, why may it not have the same use now in like manner? But I have used those examples only to show the vanity of the Admonition, which would make the Reader believe, that in those days there was no distinction used in apparel. Christ and his Apostles have left a perfect pattern of a minister touching conditions, qualities, Loose conclusions of T. C. & office, so hath the scripture done of a magistrate, and of a subject also, of a master and of a servant. etc. but shall there be therefore no distinction in apparel betwixt them? or no external notes to discern them by? what kind of argument call you this, Christ and his Apostles have left us a perfect pattern of the ministers office: Ergo, the magistrate may not take any order for his apparel? Truly these be lose conclusions and (as you use to term them) very pitiful arguments. Of the same force be these arguments: most of the Apostles and Prophets used no such several apparel, Ergo, we may not use any several apparel. And again, none of them have left any commandment of it, Ergo it aught not to be. The first reason hath thus many faults: first, the Antecedent is untrue, as I have showed before out of this Prophet Zacharie, and M. Caluine. etc. For the Prophets were discerned from others by a certain kind of apparel, and it is not able to be proved but that the Apostles had several apparel from the common sort of men. Secondly, The Antec dent of T. C infereth a consequent against himself. it is no good argument à facto ad ius: but it is much worse à non facto ad non ius, the which kind of argument Zuinglius divers times reproveth in his treatises against the Anabaptists, as I have oftentimes said. Thirdly, if some of the Apostles and some of the Prophets did use several apparel (as the Antecedent confesseth they did) though it doth not follow that we must do so: yet it evidently proveth that we may do so, being no commandment in the scripture to the contrary. Theargumen of T. C. overthrown by his own assernon. Your second argument is overthrown by your own self. For Pag. 13. you say, that many things are both commanded and forbidden, of which there is no express mention in the word, which are as necessary to be followed and avoided, as those whereof Pa. 13. Sect. 1 express mention is made: which if it be true, (as it is most untrue) than things of less importance and not so necessary, though they be not expressedly commanded, yet may they be done. M. Caluine in his book against the Anabaptists (for your arguments and there's do marvelously agree, and be builded upon the self-same foundation) saith thus: To dissolve that which God never dissolved, is in a mortal man a token of to much rashness and arrogancy. But let us always hold this, that then the authority of God is usurped, Calvin adver. Anabap. when that is condemned, which he hath permitted: But the scripture mentioneth in no place that the use of armour is forbidden unto princes. etc. You may hereby then perceive, that M. Caluine doth not think this to be a sound argument, it is not commanded: Ergo it is unlawful, except it can be showed to be prohibited: wherefore if you will condemn a several kind of apparel in ministers, you must show some commandment or prohibition in the word of God for the same, else are you rash, and arrogant, usurping to yourself god's authority as M. Caluine says. Chap. 2. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 55. Sect. 1 Eusebius says, that S. John the Apostle ware on his head a leaf or thin plate like unto a Bishop's mitre. T. C. Pag. 53. Sect. ult. For want of store, and to make a long book, here is S. john's mitre rehearsed thr see in one leaf to the same purpose, and in the sane words. And because it was not enough that M. Bullinger, and M. Martyr should speak of them, you have prevented them both, lest you should have But not once digested or answered. seemed to have brought nothing. If this be not coleworts*twise sodden, I cannot tell what is. Io. Whitgifte. It is so often rehearsed as you report, but by divers authors, to show their opinions of one and the self-same thing. M. Gualther and M. Martyr among other examples, use this of S. john to prove that in the ancient Church there was a peculiar fashion of apparel for Priests. I recite their words as witnesses in this case worthy of credit, and by that occasion this example of john is the oftener repeated: but this is a sore matter to move such choler: you should quietly have answered the reason, and left your heat of speech: but you have done the contrary. That the Magistrate may appoint a distinct apparel for Ministers. Chap. 3. the. I Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 55. Sect. 1 But what if none of the Prophets, what if none of the Apostles (which you are not able to prove either of the prophets or Apostles) were known by their apparel? May not therefore Christian magistrates in Christian common weals, for order and decency appoint a several kind of apparel, as well to ministers as to other states of men. T. C. Page. 54. Sect. 1 You ask whether the christian Magistrate may enjoin a several kind of apparel to the Ministers. Either the cause is to weak, which you defend, or else it hath got an evil patron, which would so gladly shift it, and change it with another. For this is an other question, which you speak of. For although that be granted unto you, which you demand, yet you can not conclude your cause. For albeit the Magistrate may command a several apparel, yet it followeth not that he may command this kind of Popish apparel, and therefore what manner of argument is this of yours, the Magistrate may command a sevetall apparel, therefore he may command this. The College walls will tell you (*) You might have learned other Logic within the College walls. that a man can not conclude from the whole to the part affirmatively. So you see I might let you fish and catch nothing, but I am neither afraid, nor ashamed to tell you the truth of that you ask, so far forth at left as I am persuaded. (a) That is as much to say, as if you like it, you may use it. I think therefore it may be such a kind of apparel, as the Magistrate commanding it, the Minister may refuse it, and such it may be, as he may not refuse it. But whatsoever apparel it be, this commandment can not be without some injury done to the Minister. For seeing that the Magistrate (b) You may say the like of judges. doth allow of him, as of a wise, learned, and discrete man, and trusteth him with the government of his people in matters between God & them, it were somewhat hard not to trust him with the appointing of his own apparel, and he is probably to be supposed that he hath discretion to wear his own gear comely, and in order, that is able to teach others, how they should wear there's: and that he should be able to do that by his wisdom, and learning, that others do without learning, and great store of wisdom, and that he should keep order and decency in apparel, which hath learned in the school of Christ, which they do that had never other schoolmaster than common sense and reason. And if any minister be found to fault, in going either dissolutely, or to exquisitely and delicately, than the Magistrate may (c) Why may be not aswell appoint him an order, as punish his disorder punish him according to the disorder wherein he saulteth. Io. Whitgifte. If you had noted my order, and dealt sincerely, these words of yours might with less discredit unto you, have been well forborn. For in this place I only prove that the ministers may be distinguished from other by a several kind of apparel. And I ask the question whether a christian Magistrate may appoint a several kind of apparel for order and decency? Of this apparel which the Admonition calleth Antichristian, I speak a little after. Your so usual kind of reasoning not ad idem, argueth but lack of ability to answer the present purpose. The question is incident to my cause: for if the Christian Magistrate have authority to appoint a several kind of apparel to Ministers, than it is also lawful for Ministers to use it. You say the College walls will tell me, that a man cannot conclude from the whole to the An argument holdeth from the whole to the part affirmatively somtune. part affirmatively. Although my argument is neither à genere, nor à toto, but ab oppositis relativis▪ (for it is this in effect, the Magistrate may command it, Ergo the subjects must obey it) yet not the College walls (which be dumb and can not speak) but the rules of Logic telleth me, that if by the whole you mean that which the Logicians do call Genus, than an argument from the whole to the part doth firmly hold affirmatively, if the whole be taken universaliter universally,, as in this example, omne animal est sensibile, Ergo, omnis bomo est sensibilis. Omnis virtus est mediocritas, Ergo temperantia est mediocritas: and so likewise the Magistrate hath authority to appoint any kind of habit for order or decency, Ergo he may appoint this or that kind of habit. If you mean by the whole, that which the Logicians do properly call to tum integrale, as you seem to do, than the rules of Logic tell you, that ab omn oto ad parts (except it be à toto in modo) the argument is good affirmatively, and not otherwise. I am not disposed to boast of my knowledge in Logic, nor to win any opinion thereof to myself by defacing or contemning of other: But, I thank God, I have sufficient to maintain whatsoever I have written, and to answer what you can reply to the contrary. But who would have thought that this spirit had been in T C. a man supposed to be so mortified. etc. The Magistrate's authority in appoin thing apparellabridged by T. C. You answer my question in deed: but as good never a whit as never a deal the better. For in such sort you give the Magistrate authority to command some kind of apparel to the Minister, that he can command none unto him, whatsoever it be, without some injury done to the Minister: which is a very strange answer. For first it restraineth the Magistrate from having authority to 〈◊〉 any kind of apparel: for such (you say) it may be, that the Minister may refuse it: Then doth it accuse the Magistrate of doing injury, if he appoint even that kind of apparel that he may lawfully do. For you say, whatsoever apparel it be, this commandment can not be without some injury done to the Minister. This is a very nice authority given to the Magistrate: but let the Reader well consider your words, and mark what authority you give to Magistrates. One reason whereby you would prove that the Magistrate do he the Minister injury, if he command him to wear that kind of apparel, which is lawful to be commanded, is this: the Magistrate doth allow of him as a wise, learned, and discrete man. etc. and therefore it were somewhat hard not to trust him with the appointing of his own apparel. etc. First, it is not true, that the Magistrate doth allow of him. etc. For you will have him choose by the Parish, and the Magistrate can not know what kind of Ministers every Parish doth choose. Secondly, if the Magistrate allow of him, it is upon condition that he be obedient to his laws. Thirdly, the Magistrate may be deceived in him, and take him for another manner of man than he is. last of all, how wise, how learned, how discrete soever he is, yet is it meet that he obey laws, and be subject unto good orders. May not other learned, wise, and discrete men, allege this for themselves also, and say, that they be able to govern themselves, what need they like children be prescribed what to do? And undoubtedly at this day this is the voice of divers: and this lesson of liberty belike they have learned of you. I do most humbly desire those that have the care of this common wealth, but Whereunto the assertion of the 〈◊〉 tendeth. to consider what lieth hid even in these your words uttered in this place, they will then no doubt understand that you seek freedom from all laws of Princes, and imagine that such perfection may be in men, that they shall not need to be governed by civil laws, but every man to be a law to himself. And here your subtle dealing is worthy to be noted (which is very usual with you) in altering the case: for whereas the kind of apparel is appointed to be a distinction from other men, and an external note of their calling, as it is in other sorts of men, as judges, sergeants, Aldermen. etc. you (as though you knew not this) make your Reader believe, that the Magistrate in appointing apparel doth mistrust the Minister's discretion, in wearing his own gear comely, and in order: as if the meaning of the Magistrates commandment herein, were, that Ministers should not go either dissolutely, or disorderly, and not rather that all Ministers should use that form of decent apparel, whereby they might in one uniform order agree ámongest themselves, and differ from other states of people in her Dominions. If you meant uprightly, you would not so often deal in this order. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 55. Sect. 1 judges, Sergeants, Aldermen, and Citizens are known by their apparel, and why may not Ministers be so likewise? are they not under subjection? be they not subject to civil laws and ordinances? aught they not to obey their governors in all things not against the word of God? T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 2. And whereas you would prove that it may be done with the Ministers, as it is done with judges, sergeants, Aldermen, and Sheriffs, the case is not like. For as for these which be in office, their robes and gowns may as their maces and sword, somewhat help to set forth the majesty and moderate pomp which is meet for the offices of justice which they execute, and consequently to help to strike a profitable fear into their hearts, which are underneath them, which hath, nor can have no place in the minister, whose authority and power, as it is not outward, so can it not, nor aught not to borrow any credit of those external shows. And the Magistrate, or the City, may seek some honour of the Citizens, mustering as it were by numbers in one livery, which aught not to be looked for at the ministers hand, because he honoureth and serveth the Magistrate an other way, nor can not also, considering that they are scattered through all the land in every Town, one, or not so many, as being put in one livery, would make any great show to the honour and commendation of the Town, or City where they remain. Io. Whitgifte. I might as well answer for judges, Sergeants. etc. as you do for ministers, and say that seeing the Magistrate doth allow them as wise, learned, and discrete men, and trusteth them with the government of the common wealth, it were something hard not to trust them with the appointing of their own apparel: but so should I reason fond and seditiously: for it is meet that learned, wise, and discrete men should be subject to laws: and the wiser, the learneder, and the discréeter they be, the more willing they are to obey the same. And this kind of argument tendeth to nothing else, but to the animating of the subjects against the Magistrate, and against the laws. The subjects an nated 〈◊〉 the magistrate. Though the authority that the Minister ought to have, must come especially by his doctrine, good conversation, and by his calling: yet is no outward means (being lawful) to be refused, whereby the same may be helped: and he must labour as much as he can, even by outward means (whether it be of conversation, or of apparel, or any such like thing) to commend his office and calling, and to procure reverence unto it. A man might likewise say, that Princes, judges, and Magistrates, are not to be reverenced for their apparel sake, but for the authority committed unto them by God: and yet is it meet and convenient that they wear such kind of apparel as may externally commend their authority. The apparel of Ministers declareth their modesty and gravity: signifieth their calling and office: pertaineth to comeliness and order: and therefore as convenient to be prescribed unto them, as any other kind of apparel is to judges, sergeants, or other civil Magistrates. And forasmuch as Ministers be members of the common wealth, it is meet that they should be subject to the orders of the same. It is the honour of the Prince to have all the states and degrees of people within her dominion in good order, be they in City, or in Town, together or separate: and therefore this is nothing that you say, the Magistrate or the City may seek some honour of the Citizens. etc. The judge, wheresoever he goeth, aught to be known by his apparel, even so the Minister: neither can you show any good reason to the contrary. M. Caluine upon Caluine. the. 23. of Mat. saith, it is meet that Doctors should in gravity and modesty of apparel differ from the common sort. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3 And so you see your question answered, whereby appeareth they are subjects as other are, and to obey also sometimes, where the commandment is not given upon good grounds. Io. Whitgifte. It is answered in deed according to my expectation, but neither according to the truth, nor the duty of a subject. The distinction of Apparel was appointed for Ministers before the Pope's tyranny. Chap. 4. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 55. Sect. 2. 3. If you doubt whether a particular kind of apparel differing from the lay men, were ever appointed for Ministers in the Church before the Pope's tyranny, and whether in these days it may be appointed in reform Churches, or not, hear the judgement of master Bullinger, and master Gualther, in an Epistle written by them to master N. and master M. Their words be these. That in the ancient Church there was a particular fashion of apparel Bullinger & Gualther. for Priests, it appeareth in the Ecclesiastical history of Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 27. and of Socrates lib. 6. cap. 22. No man is ignorant, which hath but lightly red over the monuments of the ancient fathers, but that the Ministers used a cloak in their service. And therefore I say de before, that the diversity of garments had not his original of the Pope. Eusebius citeth out of the ancient writers, that saint john the Apostle wore on his head a leaf or thin plate like unto a Bishop's mitre. Pontius Diaconus witnesseth of saint Cyprian the Martyr, that when he offered his neck to the executioner, he first gave him his cap, and the Deacon his upper garment, and so stood apparelled in white linen. Moreover Chrysostom maketh mention of white apparel of Ministers. Hitherto Bullinger and Gualther. T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3. 4. The place of (a) The place of Theodoret fall fied. Theodoret cited by M. Bullinger, maketh mention of a golden Cope, and that used by Bishops of Jerusalem, and sold by cyril a good Bishop, whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of such garments in the ministery of the Sacraments. In the place the which he citeth out of Socrates, there is one Sycinius an Novatian Bishop is said to have worn white apparel, and therefore is reprehended as for too much exquisiteness and fineness of apparel, and the Bishop of Durisine, in a letter he written, allegeth the same place against the surplice. A man would hardly believe that master Bullinger should use these places to prove a distinction of apparel amongst the Ministers: We are not ignorant but that a cloak hath been used of the Ministers in their service, but that was no several apparel of the Ministers, but common to all Christians, which with change of their religion, changed also their apparel, as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de Pailio. As for the Petalum that S. john ware, I see not how it can be proved, to be like a Bishop's iter. For the cap that S. Cyprian gave the executioner, argueth rather that it was the common apparel, which was customably worn, for else it would not have done him so much good. As for his upper garment, which he gave to his Deacon, it was a token of his good will, which he would leave with him, as the practice hath been seen with us, and proveth nothing that it was any several apparel. As for the whytelinnen garment, which he suffered in, it can not seem strange unto us, which have seen the holy martyrs of the Lord executed in Smithfielde and other places. And it is not to be thought that S. Cyprian had so small judgement, that living in the time of persecution, he would by wearing of some notable apparel from the rest, as it were betray himself into the hands of his enemies, unless all the Christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of their faith, and greater detestation of the contrary Religion: as Tertullian and the Chrystians in his time did, by the wearing of a Cloak, which reason may be also alleged of the Petalum of Saint john. Hom. 6. ad pop. Antioch . It is true, Chrysostom maketh mention of a white garment, but not in commendation of it, but rather to the contrary. For he showeth that the dignity of their ministery, their sa tie and crown was in taking heed, that none unmeet were admitted to the lords supper, not in going about the Church with a white garment. And it is easily to be seen by ( * Scripture fond alleged. ) Solomon Eccle. 9 in his Ecclesiastes, that to wear a white garment was greatly esteemed in the East parts, and was ordinary to those that were in any estimation, as the wearing of black with us: and therefore was no several apparel for the ministers, or for to execute their ministery in. Io. Whitgifte. The words of Theodoret be these, But the tale, which they had raised of Cyrillus, T eod. lib. 2. cap. 7. did chief displease thee ( * 〈◊〉. ) Emperor. For whereas the most worthy king Constantine had for the honour of the Church of Jerusalem given unto Macarius Bishop in the same city, a holy garment (precious and wrought with gold) which he should wear, when he ministered the holy Baptism, they reported that cyril sold it. etc. Here you see that Theodoret counteth it but a fable, that cyril should make any such sale, and those that say he sold it, declare that it was not for any disallowing of the vesture, but for Sozo. lib. cap. 25. necessity of the poor in the time of famine, as Sozo. lib. 4. cap. 25. testifieth. You deal with M. Bullinger as you do with me, that is, you pervert his meaning and allege that out of Socrates, that he meant not, & keep that in silence, which maketh Lib. 6. cap. 〈◊〉. directly for this purpose. Socrates there showeth how Sycinius being a Novatian, did wear white apparel, & when he was for the same reproved, he answered that it was no where written that Priests should wear black apparel, and bade them prove by scripture, that priests aught to wear black apparel. Whereby it is plain, that ministers in those days did wear black apparel, & were thereby known, and that Sycinius being an heretic refused so to do, using the same arguments that you do, scilicet, that it is no where commanded that Priests should wear such kind of vesture. Wherefore the story is aptly alleged by master Bullinger, to prove a several kind of apparel, and it insinuateth what manner of men those be, that contemn the common order in such matters, and love to be singular like unto Sycinius the Novatian heretic. As for S. john his Petalum, you hear what these learned men say, who no doubt have good ground of their judgement. Neither would Eusebius have made any mention of it, if it had not been a kind of apparel, whereby S. John was known. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 31. The words of Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 31. be these: john which leaned upon the breast of the Lord, being a Priest wore a leaf or thin plate. Whereby it is evident, that this apparel was peculiar to S. john in the respect that he was a Priest. That Cyprian his apparel was not usual and common for other men to wear, it may appear by this, that the names of his apparel be expressed, for that which he gave to the executioner is called Birrus, that is, a thy ne plate, and that which he gave to the Deacon was called Dalmatica, a garment with long sleeves: as for the white linen, it is not there mentioned as any distinct kind of apparel. The words of Chrysostom do manifestly declare that then such kind of garment was used in the administration of the Sacraments: neither do his words tend any thing at all to the disallowing of it, for they be spoken by the way of comparison, and negatives by comparison are not simple negatives (as I told you before) but by the way of comparison: and therefore when Chrysostom saith, that the dignity of their ministery. etc. was in taking heed, that none unmeet were admitted to the Lords supper, not in going about the Church with a white garment, he doth not disallow going about the Church in a white garment, but he saith, that it is not in comparison of the other, so greatly to be regarded. If Solomon in that place meant any such matter, yet is it no proof at all for this that T. C. doth 〈◊〉 eage the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fundly 〈◊〉 carelessly. you all e it for: there was a great number of years betwixt Solomon his time, and Chrysostom's, and all kind of customs much altered, & therefore I marvel what you mean to bring in Solomon to prove that the white apparel used by ministers of the church in the administration of the sacraments in the time of Chrysostom, was not s verall, but common and usual apparel. But that the Reader may understand your carelessness in alleging the scriptures, I will set down the words of Solomon in that. 9 chapter and. 8. verse. At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil be lacking upon thy head. In the which sentence, by the white garment is meant either innocency of life, as Pelican doth interpret it, or joy & mirth, as some other think: Ecclesi. 9 but there can be nothing less gathered thereof, than that there was at that time any such usual kind of apparel. And to what purpose should he have so said, if it had been so? The Metaphors & figurative kind of speeches that Solomon useth in these books, can not be unknown to any. You do not trouble me with many quotations, but those that be, are passing strange. And surely I can not but marvel how you dare be so bold, as thus to abuse the scriptures. Be it that this is the saying of belly gods (according to the note of the Geneva Bible, whereupon I think you ground your assertion) to move unto mirth & pastime, doth it therefore follow, that this was an usual kind of Apparel in Solomon his time? Or if it were then, must it be also in Chrysostom his time? Or if it were so in his time, might it not also be used of the ministers in the administration of the sacraments, as a comely and decent vesture, and differing from the rest? If I had the gift of jesting, that you are so excellent in, what sport could I make with this, and a number such like places? Chap. 4. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 56. Sect. 1 Peter Martyr likewise in an Epistle written to master Hoper, P. Martyr. saith on this sort: I will not grant that these diversities of vestures have their beginnings of the Pope, for so much as I read in the ecclesiastical history, how that john the Apostle wore at Ephesus, where he john's apparel. dwelled, a Bishop's apparel, terming it Petalum, seu lamina Pontificalis. As touching Saint Cyprian the holy martyr, Pontius the Deacon writeth, that a little before he should be beheaded, he gave unto him that was appointed to behead him, his vesture called Birrus, after he had put it off, and to the Deacons he gave his other vesture called Dalmatica, and so stood in linen. Chrysostom maketh mention of the white vesture of the ministers of the Church. Haec ille. T. C. Pag. 55. Sect. 1 The reasons that M. Peter Martyr useth, are the same before, and how he hath also condemned them, it shall appear, with M. Bucers' judgement of these things in the ends of the book. Io. Whitgifte. In the mean time you see how these notable learned men agree in one truth against you: neither are you able to show any contrariety in this point uttered by him, or M. Bucer, as I trust shall then appear. Chap. 4. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 56. Sect. 2. 3. Socrates also in the second book of his Ecclesiastical history Socrates. saith, that the father of Eustathius being Bishop of Caesarea, did deprive the said Eustathius his son being a priest, of his place Eustathius. and dignity, because he wore apparel not comely for a Priest to wear, nor agreeable to his order. Therefore it is certain that Ministers even from the Apostles time have had a distinct and several kind of apparel from other men. T. C. Page. 55. Sect. 2. As for Eustathius his deprivation, because he did not were apparel meet for a Minister, it maketh not to this purpose one whit. For I have showed that if any minister go like a ruffian or swash buckler, or in the bravery of a courtier, that it is meet he should be punished according to the quantity of the fault. And that it is so to be understanded it appeareth manifestly by the counsel of Gangris, which did therefore confirm the same deposing, because he ware a stranger apparel, and the habit of a Philosopher, and caused all his fellows to do so. Therefore I maruaple what you mean to allege this place. It is also alleged of (*) Nicephorus, in (a) . neither of the Lib. 9 cap. 45. places there is any Eustathius the son of Eustathius, but of Eulabius, or as Nicephorus readeth Eulalius. And therefore your conclusion is both untrue and uncertain, that since the Apostles times there hath been a distinct and several apparel of the ministers from the rest. Io. Whitgifte. The words of Socrates Lib. 2. chap. 43. be these: Eustathius the Bishop of Sebastia in Socra. lib. 2. cap. 43. Armenia was not admitted to make his defence, because he was deposed before of his father Bishop of Caesarea in Capadocia, for that he wore an undecent garment. The canon of the Council of Gangris: If any man thinketh it to avail unto his holy purpose (to Distinc. 3 . weet of continency) that he wear a cloak, as if thereby he should attain unto righteousness, and reprehendeth, or condemneth them which wear the ornament called Byrrhus and the other common and usual garment, let him be accursed. Dist. 30. Both by Socrates and also by this Canon of the Council it doth appear that Eustathius and his adherentes were condemned for using a new and singular kind of apparel, from that which then was commonly and customably used of all Bishops. That in the conclusion of this Council which is spoken of modest, simple, and decent apparel, against that which is loose and dissolute, hath no colour of proving any thing against Eustathius his contempt and singularity, neither doth it in any one word signify, that he was not deprived for refusing to wear the ordinary and accustomed apparel to Priests. You say, that in neither of the places, there is any Eustathius the son of Eustathius, T. C. taketh advantage where none is given. but of Eulabius. etc. Gladly would you have some thing to dally with, if possibly you could tell how. Are you not ashamed thus to deal? where do I say that Eustathius was the son of Eustathius? had you not my book before you? be not these my words: Socrates in the second book of his Ecclesiastical history says, that the father of Eustathius being Bishop of Caesarea, did deprive the said Eustathius his son being a priest. etc. I neither name him Eustathius, nor Eulabius, nor Eulalius: Therefore my conclusion is both true and certain, and you do but seek occasion of quarreling. That the Apparel now used is not Popish or Antichristian: and that things invented by evil men may be used of Christians. Chap. 5. the first Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 56. Sect. 4. But cap, gown, tippet. etc. you say, is Popish and Antichristian: This is only said, and not proved. If you call it Popish and Antichristian, because it was first invented by an Antichristian Pope: it is first to be considered whether that be true or no. Then if it be true, whether every thing so invented, is of necessity to be abolished. T C. Page. 55. Sect. 3 The matter lieth (*) Then the ease is altered of late. not in that, whether these things were first invented by Papists, or being devised of others, were after taken by the Papists, but the matter standeth in this, that they have been used of the Papists as notes and marks, and sacraments of their abominations. Io. Whitgifte. You altar the case as often, as it pleaseth you, and liberty you have to affirm or deny what you list, when you list, and where you list without controlment: for hitherto I am sure your chief grounds against the apparel hath been, that the same was invented by Popes, and used by them. But take your pleasure. That which followeth in my Answer to the Admonition, is directly against this your ground also, if you will stand to it and not shrink. Chap. 5. the second Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 56. Sect. ult. It is certain that this apparel of ministers, which you found yourselves so much grieved with, was appointed long before the church Stephanus a good Bishop invented this apparel. of Rome declined from the purity of Christ's Religion, for Stephanus Bishop of Rome, who lived the year of our Lord 256. is said to be the first, which did appoint this kind of apparel for ministers, neither are you able to show that any Antichristian Pope invented the same. But admit it were so that this apparel was either borrowed of the jews, or taken from the Gentiles, or invented and used by Things invented by evil men may be used of Christians. some Antichristian Pope, yet it followeth not, but that the same may be well used of Christians in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte. To this T. C. speaketh not one word, good or evil. Chap. 5. the third Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 57 Sect. 1 & Page. 58. Sect. 1 Augustine in his Epistle ad Publicolam hath this notable saying. Augustinus. Et cum templa, idola, luci, & si quid buiusmodi data potestate evertuntur, quamuis manifestum est, cum id agimus, non ea nos honorare, sed potius detestari, ideò tamen in usus nostros privatos duntaxat & proprios, non debemus indè aliquid usurpare, ut appareat nos pietate ista destruere, non avaritia. Cum verò in usus communes, non proprios ac privatos, vel in honorem dei veri convertuntur, hoc de illis fit, quod de ipsis hominibus, cum ex sacrilegis & impijs in veram religionem mutantur. etc. When temples, Idols, groves, and such like things by authority be overthrown, although it is manifest, when wedoe that, we honour Private use of idolatrous things forbidden. them not, but detest them, yet for all that we may not therefore convert them or use them to our own private uses only and commodity, that it may appear that we destroy them for Religion sake, and not for covetousness. But when they are converted, not into private and our own use, but into common uses, or to the honour of the true God, that is done and brought to pass in them, which is done and brought to pass in men themselves, when of Idolaters and wicked people they are changed into true Religion. This hath God himself taught in those testimonies, which thou thyself haste used, when as God himself commanded that of that same grove, which was dedicated to strange Gods, there should be wood taken for his sacrifices: and of Hierico, that all the Gold and Silver, and brass should be brought into the treasury of the Lord. Wherefore that also, which is written in deuteronomy, thou shalt not covet their silver nor their gold, neither shalt thou take any thing thereof to thyself, lest thou offend, because it is abomination unto the Lord thy God. etc. It manifestly appearreth that either private uses is forbidden in such things, or that nothing should so be brought into thy house that it be honoured: for than it is abomination. etc. hitherto Augustine. By these words it doth manifestly appear, that even things altogether Idolatrous things turned to common use. dedicated to Idols and used in Idolatry, may be converted to common uses, and used in the service of God and to his honour, but not to private uses nor superstitiously. T. C. Pag. 55. Sect. 4. As for Augustine his place, it is to be understanded of such things as have (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward. a necessary use, and therefore may not be taken away from us by the superstition of men. For so we might also be deprived of the sun, which is as it were the life of the world, because the sun hath been worshipped. But that Saint Augustine did not like of this kind of retaining ceremonies, it may (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward. appear. Do you ask says he, how the Pagans may be won, how they may be brought to salvation, August. om. 10. de verbis domini in Mattheum m. 9 forsake their solemnities, let go their toys, and then if they agreed not unto our truth, let them be ashamed of their fewness, whereby he showeth that the nearest way to gain the Papists, is to forsake their ceremonies. And yet I would be loath to say either with you, or with Augustine, that it is not lawful for a man, to make of a Popish surplice, a shirt for himself, or to take the gold of a Cope which he hath bought, and convert it to his private use. And herein we do nothing disagree with Saint Augustine, which grant that surplice and copes, and tippets, and caps, may be applied to a good use, either common or private, as they will best serve, but we deny that that use is in distinguishing either the ministers from other men, or the ministers executing their ecclesiastical function from themselves, when they do not exercise that office. Io. Whitgifte. The words of Augustine be plain, neither can they be so shifted of. And it maketh evidently against your distinction that he saith such things may not be converted into private uses. A man may cavil with the most manifest authorities either of scriptures or fathers, that can be: but every shift and cavil is not a sufficient answer. This proposition is by these words of Augustine directly proved: that things altogether dedicated to Idols and used in Idolatry may be afterward used in the service of God, and to his honour, which is the state of our question. And because this is a material point, and peradventure Saint Augustine his authority is not much regarded of you, I will set down M. Caluine his opinion also touching the same matter, who in his Harmony upon the books of Moses, upon these words in the. 23. of Erodus ver. 24. Thou shalt utterly overthrow, and break in pieces their Images, saith t us: we make it Calui . not now any scruple of conscience to retain still those Churches which were polluted with Idols, and to put them to better use because that which is added to the law propter consequentiam (as they term it) doth not bind us. I grant that all those things which do tend to the planting of superstition aught to be taken away, so that, by precise urging of that which is of itself indifferent, we be not in to much rigour, Superstitious. The place is worth the noting, it fully overthroweth your grounds against the apparel. Saint Augustine in that sermon quoted in your margin, speaketh against such as professing Christianity did notwithstanding resort to the temples of the Pagans at their solemnities and feasts, thinking it sufficient, if they did in heart detest the Idols, though in body they were present in their temples and at their feasts: much like unto those that think it sufficient to serve God in heart, though in body they be present at the Mass, and Idolatrous service. That this is the meaning of Augustine in that place, it may evidently appear to all such as will peruse it: upon this Augustine bringeth in these words: If you ask how the Pagans may be overcome, won, and illuminated, how they may be brought to salvation: forsake all their solemnity, let go Aug. serm. 6. de verbis domi. in Matth. their toys, and then if they agreed not unto the truth, let them be ashamed of their fewness. It was in Saint Augustine's time, as it is in some places at this day, where in some one city there be Churches both for the Gospel, and for the mass also: it is not meet that such as profess the Gospel, should resort to the Mass: for besides that they offend God in being present at Idolatrous service, they also give occasion to the Papists to think better of their Mass, because they see it frequented of such as seem to profess the Gospel, and thereby also persuade themselves of a greater multitude that embraceth their Religion: wherefore one way to convert them is, to abstain from their Churches, that they may understand both our misliking of their service, and their own paucity also. And that this is meant of by Augustine in that place, it may also appear by these words in the same Sermon: The Pagans say in their hearts, why forsake we our Gods, seeing the Christians themselves worship them as well as we. And again: Behold against what true God thou dost offend, whiles thou fallest down before false Gods. S. Augustine speaketh not one word in all that sermon of ceremonies, or any thing else taken from the gentiles, and by Christians converted to other uses: much less of any such matter as we have new in question. And therefore you do but abuse the Reader by reciting certain words of S. Augustine without the circumstances, which open the true meaning of them. I praise your wit for saying that such things may be converted to private uses: for deny that (as S. Augustine plainly doth) and I shall be bond unto you, that your doctrine shall have the fewer fautors by. 3. parts: for surely many that condemn your opinions in heart, for hope of private commodity, that might come unto them, by the dissolution of colleges, Churches, etc. do seem very well to like of them. Wherefore teach them (if you be wise) that such things may be converted to their private uses, whatsoever Augustine says to the contrary. Augustine says also that they may be converted in honorem Dei, unto the honour of God. What say you to that? as for your denying that that use is in distinguishing either the ministers from other men. etc. because it is but your bore denial against all the proofs alleged, I will with affirming the contrary pass it over. Chap. 5. the fourth Division Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. 3. Peter Martyr in the Epistle before mentioned touching this matter, P. Martyr. writeth on this sort. But let us consider your other argument, that is to say: It is not lawful to use these kind of vestures, because they were invented by the Pope's tyranny. In this point I do not well perceive how it may be affirmed for a surety, that we can use nothing that pertained to the Pope, and is used in Temples of Idols converted to the worship of God. Popery. Truly we must take good heed that we bring not the Church of Christ into such bondage, that it may not use any thing that the Pope used. It is very true that our forefathers took the temples of Idols, & turned Revenues. them into holy Churches, where Christ should be worshipped: And they took also the salary and revenues consecrated to the Idols of the gentiles, to their wicked shows and plays, and to their holy votaries virgins, and transposed it to find the Ministers of the Church: And yet all these things did not only service unto Antichrist, but unto the devil: yea the holy Ecclesiastical Phrases of poets. writers did not stick to take the verses of poets, which had been dedicated to Muses, and to other diverse Gods and goddesses, for to be played in plays, and spoken in shows, to obtain the favour of their Gods: I say they did nothing stick or fear to use them, when it seemed to them convenient, imitating Paul the Apostle, who stuck nothing at all to rehearse for his purpose Menander, Aratus, and Epimenides, and that he did in entreating the holy Scripture apply profane words to set forth God's Religion. We read also how that wine was consecrated Wine, bread▪ etc. consecrated to Idols. unto Bacchus, bread unto Ceres, water unto Neptune, oil unto Minerva, letters unto Mercury, song unto the Muses and unto Apollo, and many other things Tertullian rehearseth in his book entitled de corona militis Christiani, where almost he entreateth this self same argument: yet for all that we stick not to use all these things freely aswell in holy as in profane uses, although at one time or other before, they had been consecrated to Idols and to devils. hitherto Peter Martyr. T. C. Page. 55. Sect. 5. To all these things that M. Martyr reckoneth up of revenues, and wages, verses, wine, bread, oil, water, which being consecrated unto Idols are well used, Tertullian answereth in the same book, whereout a number of these are taken: when he saith that we ought to admit a participation of those things, which bring either a necessity or profit in the use of them, but we deny these things thus used, are either necessary or profitable. And therefore in stead of temples, tithes, wine, etc. if you would have matched the surplice well, you should have said sensors, tapers, holy bread, holy water, and such like. Io. Whitgifte. Master Martyr used these examples to prove that the surplice and other apparel of Ministers now used (for that is the matter he handleth) may lawfully be retained and worn: whose judgement and authority with learned and wise men doth far overreach your naked denial. Neither doth Tertullian speak any thing in his books de corona militis, that tendeth to the confutation of any thing that Master Martyr hath here spoken, but to the confirmation of it rather, as he may perceive that with diligence readeth the book. Eusebius Lib. 4. cap. 11. saith that justinus Martyr preached the Eusebius. Gospel of Christ being appareled like an heathen Philosopher. S. Augustine the civit. Lib. 19 cap. 19 writeth thus: it pertaineth nothing to the City of God in what kind of Augustine. apparel, or in what order of life, so that it be not against God, any man follow this faith whereby we come unto God. Therefore when Philosophers become Christians, the church compelleth them not to change their apparel, or manner of living, which can nothing hinder Religion, but only she compelleth them to change their false opinions. Hilary Hilary. also saith, in Psal. 67. that the spoils of the heathens taken from the devil, are divided to the furniture and ornaments of the Church of God. So that the saying of Master Martyr is very true, and confirmed by ancient authority, and the use of the Church as the testimonies of these fathers manifestly declare. Where as you say, that if I would have matched the surplice well, I should have said sensors, tapers. etc. I tell you again that it is not I, but M. Martyr a famous and notable man, that so matched them, and at that time, when the same matters were in controversy, and his judgement required of them, and therefore could not be written of him, but with great advisement. Howbeit, that you may know something the more, you must learn to put a difference between Adiapbora vera & Pseudoadiapbora, those things that be indifferent in deed, and those that are falsely accounted indifferent. Chap. 5. the fifth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 59 Sect. 1 & Pag. 60. Sect. 1 Bucer in an Epistle that he writ to john Alasco, is of the same Bucer. judgement, his words are worthy to be noted, and be these: For if by no means it be lawful to use those things, which were of Aaron's Priesthood or of the Gentiles, then is it not lawful for us to have Churches, nor holidays. For there is no express commandment by word in the holy Scriptures of these things. It is gathered notwithstanding from the example of the old people, that they are profitable for us to the increase of godliness, which thing also experience proveth. For any thing to be a What it is to be a note of Antichrist. note of Antichrist, is not in the nature of any creature in itself (for to that end nothing was made of God) but it hangs altogether of consenting to Antichrist's Religion and the professing thereof. The which consent and The use or abuse of things indifferent. profession being changed into the consent and profession of Christianity, there can stick in the things themselves no note or mark of Antichrist's Religion. The use of Bells was a mark of antichristianity in our Churches, when the people by them were called to Masses, and when they were rung against tempests Now they are a token of Christianity, when the people by them are gathered together to the Gospel of Christ, and other holy actions. Why may it not then be, that the self same garments Bucers' opinion. may serve godly with godly men, that was of wicked signification with the ungodly? Truly I know very many Ministers of Christ, most godly men, who have used godly these vestures, and at this day do yet use them: So that I dare not for this cause ascribe unto them any fault at all, much less so heinous a fault of communicating with Antichrist, for the which fault we may utterly refuse to communicate with them in The distribution of bread & wine in the sacrifices of devils. Christ. The Priests of devils did celebrated in their sacrifices, the distribution of bread and the cup, as justinus Martyr and Tertullian make mention. What let is there why we may not use the same ceremonies also? you will say we have a commandment of the Lord touching this ceremony. Very well. And by the self same it appeareth that same thing to serve among the children of God to the service of Christ, which the wicked abused in the service of devils, if the commandment of Christ be added thereto. But it is the commandment of Christ, that in our holy actions weinstitute and use all things so as comeliness and order be observed, that faith may be edified. The same M. Bucer in another Epistle written to M. Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury, says on this sort: All true godly men may ☞ godly use those rites, which wicked men have abused howsoever ungodly. T. C. Pag. 56. Line. 2. & Sect. 1 It is true that M. Bucer says, that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of Antichrist, but yet it followeth not thereof, that the creature that hath been accidentally and through abuse applied to Idolatry, may be forthwith used as we shall think good. For neither the Idols of the gentus, nor the corruptions of those which offered, had not power to make the beef or mutton that was offered, no good and wholesome meat for the sustenance of man, neither cause that a Christian man could not eat them as beef & mutton, but yet either to eat it at the table of Idols, before them, or else privately in his own house, when there was any weak by, that thought it an abominable thing, was not lawful: and yet the meat nevertheless the good creature of God, and which might be received with thanksgiving, so the abuse of the surplis and cope. etc. cannot 'cause, but that they may be used as clot and silk. And whereas he says that they are changed, and made of notes of Antichristianitie, marks of Christianity, I say that they cannot be changed so by and decree cree or commandment, for as much as notwithstanding that profession of change, the ha' 'tis or men unto which every man must have regard unto, are not changed. For not so soon as the magistrate will say that these things shall be from henceforth used as things indifferent, forthwith men do use them so, but those only use them so, which have knowledge, both the ignorant and the weak take them still otherwise. Io. Whitgifte. Your answer to these learned and famous men, is not of any moment at all, for The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering of T. C. their reasons you answer only with words, when as indeed their only words (for their godliness, experience, and learning sake) aught to be of greater credit than your reasons: but the aptness of your answers I refer to the judgement of the reader, seeing he hath both their words and yours before his eyes. This only I note, that something you will say how unaptly soever, lest you should seem to give place to the plain truth. These vestures are neither used at the tables of Idols, nor with the offence of the the weak, as I have she wed before: they are known of all men to be notes of the ministers of the Gospel, aswell as the bell is known to be rung to godly prayers, and preachings. etc. and therefore you have spoken, but answered nothing. Chap. 5. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 60. Sect▪ 2. Bullinger and Gualther in the epistle before alleged answering this Bullinger and Gualther. question, whether we may wear such apparel as the Papists do, say on this sort: If we should have nothing common with them, then must we forsake all our Churches, refuseal livings, not minister baptism, not say the Apostles or Nicene creed, yea and quite cast away the lords prayer, neither do you borrow any ceremonies of them. The matter of apparel was never taken away at the beginning of reformation, and is yet retained, not by the Pope's la, but by the king's commandment, as an indifferent thing of mere policy. Yea truly if you wear a cap or a peculiliar kind of apparel, as a civil and politic thing, it smelleth neither of judaisme, nor Monachisme: For these will seem to separate themselves from the civil and common life, and account a meritorious deed in the wearing of a peculiar garment. So Eustathius Bishop of Sebastia, was not Superstition in garments condemned. simply condemned for wearing a peculiar kind of garment: but for that he did put religion in his garment. The canons of the council of Gangrene, Laodicen, and of the sixt council, are well known. If in case, any of the people be persuaded that these things savour of Papisme, Monachisme, or judaisme, let them be told the contrary, and perfectly instructed therein. And if so be through the importunate crying out hereon before the people by some men, many be disquieted in their conscience, let them beware which so do, that they bring not greater yokes on their own necks, and provoke the Queen's majesty and bring many faithful ministers in such danger, as they cannot rid themselves out again. Hitherto Bullinger. T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The rest of those things, which M. Bucer, and those which M. Bullinger and Gualther bring, are all of that sort, whereunto answer is made. Only this they add, that if the people do abuse and pervert those ceremonies, they ought to be better instructed, which is a counsel not so convenient, that the ministers and Pastors which have so many necessary points to bestow their time on, and to inform the people of, should be driven to cut off their time appointed thereto, to teach them not to abuse these things, which if they use never so well, they can gain nothing, and to take heed that they hurt not themselves at those things, which in their best estate do no good, especially when one sermon of the taking of them away joined with authority to execute it, may do more good, than a thousand sermons without authority. Besides that, it is absurd, that Ceremonies which ought to be helpers to promote the doctrine, should become lets and hindrances, whilst the minister is occupied in teaching, to beware of the abuse of them, and of superstition. And it is as much as if one should be set to watch a chyide all day long, lest he hurt himself with the knife, when as by taking away the knife quite from him, the danger is avoided, and the service of the man better employed. And so it followeth, that although the Church may appoint Ceremonies and rites, yet it can not appoint these that have great incommodity, and no commodity, great offence, and no edifying. Io. Whitgifte. You have omitted divers things in the words of these learned men, whereunto you have not answered one word, as the Reader by conference may perceive: and here you have also willingly passed over that which toucheth you something pinchingly, in these words of M. Bullinger, and M. Gualther, scil. And if so be through the importunate crying out hereon before the people. etc. If to preach the truth of the right use of these Ceremonies be not so convenient, The reason returned up on himself. because the Pastors have so many necessary points. etc. how cometh it to pass that you and your partakers have so pestered your sermons and books therewith, and so long time taught the people nothing else, but contempt of all good order and obedience in such matters, and have stirred them up against the true preachers of the Gospel, and against their Magistrates and rulers for the self same thing? Is it not as convenient for us to root out of the people's minds errors touching things indifferent, as it is for you to ingraft them? or is not the doctrine of the true and lawful use of indifferent things, of due obedience towards laws and Magistrates a necessary doctrine? Where as you say, it is absurd, that Ceremonies which ought to be helpers to promote The doctrine of things indifferent necessary. Things abused must not by and by be taken away. the doctrine, should become lets and hindrances. etc. I will not say you speak absurdly, but undoubtedly you speak unadvisedly. For will you have things indifferent abrogated so soon as they be abused, east they should become lets & hindrances, whilst the minister is occupied in teaching. etc. then take away tithes, lands, meats. etc. The abuse whereof must of necessity oftentimes be reprehended in sermons, and the true use taught: and make all things common, that the preachers in their sermons may be occupied about great matters. Do you not see that doctrine of things indifferent is necessary? understand you not that the taking away of the things from the eyes, doth not by and by root the opinion out of the heart? Things abused must not always be taken away when they are abused, but the right use must be taught, and the abuse reproved. The child when he hath discretion, and is able to be instructed, though he sometime hurt himself with the knife, yet must not the same be altogether taken from him, but he must be rebuked for using it so undiscreetly, and taught to use it better. Shall the rich and costly apparel be taken from Princes, nobles, and men & women of estate, and they brought to a popularity therein, because there is great abuse oftentimes in such apparel, and many provocations to evil? Not truly: but such kinds of abuses are to be by the word of God reproved. Neither doth such instructions and doctrine in matters indifferent hinder preachers from weightyer matters. Why did the Apostles make their decree of abstaining à suffocato & sanguine, from that that is strangled, and blood? or Saint Paul, of praying bore headed or Act. 15. covered? 1. Corinth. II Which things afterward might grow to abuse, if they had not thought the doctrine of ceremonies to be convenient. Touching the great incommodity and offence that you imagine to be in this apparel, it is but your fancy, which take the apparel to be the cause of your niceness, contempt, disobedience, contention, & such like, remaining in you, when in deed it is nothing else but singularity, and preposterous zeal: Wherefore that is to be removed out of the heart, rather than the apparel from the back. To be short, that which you imagine of any opinion of the Religion in this apparel, or superstition, or any such like offence, it is but a mere imagination to cloak & cover the corruptions of the mind before mentioned. Chap. 5. the seventh Division Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 61. Sect. 1 I have the rather set down these men's sayings at large, because they be both pithy, learned, & wholly to the confutation of your assertion. Wherefore I conclude that a Christian Magistrate may retain any civil, politic, or Ecclesiastical orders and rites, of whom soever they were invented, or howsoever they have been abused, so that, first they be not against the word of God: Secondly, that justification and remission of sins be not attributed unto them: Thirdly, that the church be not troubled with the multitude of them: fourthly, that they be not decreed as necessary, and not to be changed: And last of all, that men be not so tied unto them, but that by occasion they may be omitted, so that it be without offence and contempt. T. C. Page. 56. Sect. 4. And although they have all these proporties which you recite, yet if they be not to edifying. if not to God his glory, if not comely and agreeable to the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ, crucified, they may not be established. Io. Whitgifte. It is sufficient if they pertain to order and comeliness (as I have before declared) the judgement whereof doth not belong to every private man, but to such only as have authority in the Church: to whose determination in such matters all other of duetic are bond to submit themselves. Chap. 5. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 62. Sect. 1 YEt one thing I must admonish you of, that there is a difference A difference between worshipping of false gods, and of the true God falsely. to be made betwixt those things, which were wholly dedicated to false gods, and to be used in the worshipping of them: and those things which were used in the false worshipping of the true God: for the Papists herein differ from the Gentiles, that they acknowledge and confess the true God, and believe the same articles of faith that we do: but yet worship him not aright, nor believe on him in all points, as the word of God prescribeth. And therefore if things abused of the Gentiles, and invented by them may be used of Christians, much more may things invented and abused by Papists. T. C. Page. 56. Sect. 4. Concerning your distinction, whereby you lessen the idolatry of the Papists, I have showed the vanity thereof. Io. Whitgifte. And I have answered whatsoever you have there said: but yet your reply in that place will not serve every circumstance of this place, except you will say with the Stoics, that peccata sunt paria, all sins are equal. Chap. 5. the ninth Division. Answer to the Admonition, Pag. 62. Sect. 1 But of this matter I mind also to speak some thing in the second part of this Admonition. T. C. Page. 56. Sect. 5. But of this matter you say you will speak again. In deed so you do, and again, wherein you confound the memory and understanding of the Reader, and declare yourself not only ignorant of Aristotle's rule of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (which is to speak of one thing generally and once for all) but even to be void of that order, which men have commonly by the natural Logic of reason. Neither can you excuse yourself in saying that the admonition giveth you so oftentimes occasion to speak of them, and so to say the fault upon it, for that it being written by divets people of the same matters, whereof (a) A manifest untruth. one knew not of an others doing, can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twice, when as you can not escape blame, which might have gathered easily into one place, that which is said of them in diverse: which thing, although it be not so easy for me to do in your book, as it was for you to do in there's, yet I will assay to do it both in this, and in all other points that follow, not thinking thereby to bring this treatise of yours to any good order (for that were to cast it new again, and then you would complain of your mind perverted) but that I might remedy this so great disorder, which may be boon without changing any thing of that which you have set down. Io. Whitgifte. I have done as you aught to have done if you had ment plainly: for I have followed verbatim the book that I confute in the same order, that it is written, which I think be that confuteth ought to do. That the Admonition was written by divers people, the one not knowing of an others doing▪ can not be true: for both the parts have one title, they be in one volume, they were Printed in one letter, at one time, by one and the same printer, and came abroad together, neither were they ever separated that I know or can understand. Moreover this bewrayeth all, and condemneth you, for one that hath no conscience in writing untruths, that in the beginning of the Admonition mention is made of both of these treatises in these words: Two treatises you have here ensuing (beloved in Christ) which ye must read. etc. And in the end of both these Treatises it is thus written: we have thought good in the latter end of our book, for sundry considerations, to certify you (beloved brethren) of the reasons that have moved us, who are the authors of these treatises to keep back our names. etc. Finally, the order and manner of both these Treatises the stile, the quotations. etc. do manifestly convince you of false witness bearing: but it is to usual with you. I am not so cunning in Aristotle, that I can be so bold as to attribute that unto him, which is not to be found in him, as you do in this place: for though he speak much of this rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, yet hath he no such thing as you father upon him in this place. It is meet that he which writeth a book of any matters, should of one matter speak fully in one place: but he that confuteth, must follow his order, whom he confuteth. Which if you had done in my Book, as I have done in theirs, either would not your unfaithful dealing have been so much, or else must it sooner, or easylier have been espied. your taunts I leave to yourself that have so good a grace in them. Chap. 5. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. ult. And if there be any other arguments touching any of these points in other places, which I have not gathered together into one, the fault is in this, that I could not bestow so much time in making a harmony of the things, which are at so great discord, and then that which is left out, shall be answered in place where I shall find it. Now let us see M. Doctor's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and second navigation touching apparel, whether it be any happier, or have any better success than the first. Io. Whitgifte. A proper excuse, if any thing fall out in the whole book, which you can not answer: as there be divers, which you have not answered. divers things concerning apparel in other places of the Answer. Chap. 6. the first Division. Admonition. Now, we must have Surplices devised by Pope Adrian. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 105. Sect. 1. 2. THe impurities you find in the administration of Baptism be these, Surplis. etc. Touching the Surplis, and such like apparel, I have spoken before sufficiently: the first inventor of it (which you say to be Pope Adrian) dot he make it neither better nor worse, and yet it was used long before Adrians' time, neither can you prove him to be the first inventor thereof. It is certain that such kind of vesture hath been used in the ministration of the Sacraments, long before any corruption of doctrine took place in the Church, as it appeareth both by Jerome in his first book Aduersus white garment used in the ministration . Pelagi. where he maketh manifest mention of a white garment used in the Administration of Sacrifice by the bishop, Priest, and Deacon. And also Chrysostom Hom. 6. to the people of Antioch, who speaketh of the like garment worn in the Church. Those that answered the examiner, do but chyldishly cavil at these two places, which in deed be plain of themselves and evident, and so is that of Hieromes also upon the. 44. of ezechiel. The religion of God hath one habit in the ministration, and an other in common use and life. Read the place considerately, and it shall easily appear, that Jerome means as well of Christian Ministers, as of jewish Priests. But of the use of this and other apparel prescribed in this Church to be worn by ministers, I have spoken partly before, and am ready to speak more as occasion shall be offered. In the mean time the Surplis is not of the substance of Baptism, neither required as necessary to the Administration thereof, but as comely and decent. T. C. Page. 57 Sect. 1 In the. 105. page M. Doctor to prove the use of the Surplice, to draw out his book into some competent volume, borroweth certain places of the examiner, for answer whereunto, I will refer the reader to that which is answered unto the examination, as to a full and sufficient answer, wherein I will rest, and when M. Doctor hath proved that, which he sayeth, that it is but a childish cavil, he shall then hear further. In the mean season it is but a slender reply to so learned an answer (that proveth both out of other authors, and out of those same which the examiner citeth, that by a white garment is ment a comely apparel, and not slovenly) to say it is but a childish cavil, which a D. of Diumitie and of forty years of age can not answer. The place of Jerome upon the 44. of ezechiel, the more it be considered, the more shall appear the truth of the Answer. Io. Whitgifte. You have not answered one word of this, but only shifted it of: I purpose not A white garment in the ministration used in Hieromes tyme. Hiero. lib. 1. advers. Pelagi. l. 44. Ezecb. at this time to unrip the answer to the Examiner, except you had taken the pains to set it down. Both the places of Jerome are to be seen: in the one he showeth, that in the administration of the Sacraments, the Bishop, Priest, and Deacon did wear a white vesture: And in the other he sayeth, that the Religion of GOD hath one habit in the ministration, and an other in the common use and life. join these two places together, and see whether the words of Jerome be manifest or no. And that it may evidently appear, that at this time wherein Jerome lived, the manner was to wear white garments in the time of divine service and Administration of Sacraments, I will recite the words of the fourth Council of Carthage, at the which there were present. 214. Bishops among whom was S. Augustine: Diaconus tempore oblationis tantùm vellectionis, alba induatur: Let the Deacon wear a white Con. Carth. 4. Can. 41. vesture, only in the time of the oblation and reading. Canone. 41. And this may be a sufficient confutation to what soever is spoken of these places of Jerome in the answer to the Examiner. Chap. 6. the second Division. Admonition. And as for the apparel, though we have been long born in hand, and yet are, that it is for order and decency commanded, yet we know and have proved that there is neither order nor come ynesse, nor obedience in using it. There is no order in it but confusion, no comeliness, but deformity: no obedience, but disobedience both against God and the Prince. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 236. the last line but one, & Pag. 237. Sect. 1 TO all this also I have answered before, I mean to all the reasons here alleged, as for bore words, they prevail with none, but such as have respect to the people, & not to the matter. And therefore I omit these words of pleasure, which you use, when you say, that in this apparel there is no order but confusion, no comeliness, but deformity: no obedience but disobedience, both against God and the Prince. It is not every private man's part to define what is order and comeliness in external matters being indifferent, but is proper to Disobedience to the prince in civil matters, is disobedience to God. them only, to whom God hath committed the government of his church, whose orders and laws (not being against the word of God) whosoever doth disobey, disobeyeth both God and the Prince: as you do in disobeying the Prince's laws in these matters. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing is said to this, although some part of it necessarily requireth an answer. Chap. 6. the third Division. Admonition. We marvel that they could espy in the last synod, that a grey Amiss, which is but a garment of dignity, should be a garment (as they say) defiled with superstition, and yet that copes, caps, surplice, tippets, and such like baggage, the preaching signs of Popish priesthood, the Pope's creatures, kept in the same form to this end, to bring dignity and reverence to the ministers and sacraments, should be retained still, and not abolished. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 237. Sect. 2. It is well that you seem to justify the grey Amiss, because the Bishops have disallowed of it in their Synod, Truly this is your conscience and religion, to be always ad oppositum, & to disallow that, which law & authority alloweth, and allow that, which they disallow. The next way (as I think) to drive you unto conformity in apparel were to make a straight law, that no man should wear such kind of apparel: because you love to be contrary to laws and good orders. T. C. Page. 57 Sect 3. 4. 5. Now I will desire the reader to turn unto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages, to see whether at this third voyage master Doctor bringeth any better merchandise. Where first he surmiseth an untruth, as though the Admonition misliked of the taking away of the grey Amis, where it says only, that there was less cause to take that away, than the surplis. etc. Wherein there is nothing but the truth said; for because that was used in few churches, and but of few also in those few churches: Therefore if there were cause to take away that, there was greater to take away the surplis. And to take away the Amis out of the Church, and leave the surplis. etc. is to heal a scratch and leave a wound unhealed. Now whereas you say, that we are always (Ad appositum) and that if the law commanded straightly, that we should wear none of this apparel that then we would wear: if it should be answered again that you do (*) I 〈◊〉 as few times as you. servire scenae: that is, that you are a time server, you see we might speak with more likelihood than you. But we will not take (as you do) the judgement of God out of his hands, but will attend patiently the revelation and discovering of that, which is now hid both in you and us. And although you will grant us neither learning nor conscience, yet you might afford us so much wit as that we would not willingly, and of purpose want those commodities 〈◊〉, which we might otherwise enjoy as well as you, if we had that gift of conformity which you have. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the Admonition touching the grey Amise be these: we marvel that they could espy in their last synod, that a grey Amis, which is but a garment of dignity, should be a garment (as they say) defiled with superstition, and yet that copes. etc. Do they not say that the Amis is but a garment of dignity. & c? consider their words well, and you shall see that master Doctor hath said truly. The grey Amis was justly taken away, because the use of it is not established by any law of this realm, as the use of other vestures be: and in mine opinion the bishops deserved commendation in so doing: for thereby they declared, that they will not suffer any rites or ornaments to be used in this Church, but such only as are by public authority established. Experience hath taught me that diverse men be of that nature, that they have a Some men delight to be contrary to times. delight in opposing themselves to the present estate, and I see it by proof to be a great fault in divers of you. I have hitherto served as few contrary times, as you have done: as for the gift of conformity, which you say I have, I thank God for it, I have learned to conform myself to the time in that sense, that S. Paul hath willed me so to do. Rom. 12. and to Rom. 12. Rom. 13. laws also and magistrates, as I am likewise commawded in the. 13. Chapter of the same epistle. What commodities you want, that I have, I cannot conjecture: your meat and drink is provided with less trouble and charges unto you, and in more delicate and dainty manner, than mine is: your ease and pleasure ten times more, you do what you list, go when you list, come when you list, speak when you list at your pleasure. What would you have more? I know not why you should complain, except you be of the same disposition with the Franciscane Friars, who when they had filled their bellies at other men's tables, were wont to cry out and say: O quanta patimur. etc. Some men are delighted to be fed at other men's tables, and prefer popular fame before Gold and silver. The faults wherewith the Admonitors charge the Apparel answered. Chap. 7. the. 1. Division. Admonition. But they are as the garments of the idol, to which we should say, avaunt, and get the e h ▪ They are as the garments of Balaamites, of Popish priests, enemies to God and all christians. h Esa. 30. 22. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 237. Sect. 3. 4. & Pag. 238. Sect. 1 But you say, they are as the garments of the Idol, to the which we should say, avant Cursed things consecrated to God. and get thee hence, they are as the garments of Balaamites, of Popish priests, enemies to God and all Christians. Be it so: so were all things in Hierico accursed, and an abomination to the Lord, neither was it lawful for the Israelites to touch any thing thereof: and yet was the gold and the silver, and the brazen and iron vessels carried into the treasure house of the Lord, and consecrated unto him. josua. 6. Gedeon was commanded to take and sacrifice that Ox of his fathers Gedeon sacrificed an ox consecrated to Baal. to God, which his father had fed, and brought up to be sacrificed to Baal, yea and to burn that Ox with the self-same wood, that was consecrated and dedicated to the Idol Baal. judic. 6. Our forefathers took the temples dedicated wholly to Idols, yea to Devils, and most abominably defiled with devilish and abominable service, and turned them into holy Churches, where Christ should be worshipped. T. C. Pag. 57 Sect. 6. 7. Whereas you say that the accursed things of jericho, and the Ox, that was fed to be anctified unto Baal, and the wood consecrated unto the Idol, were converted to the service of the living God, when you shall prove that the surplis is so necessary to the service of God, as gold. and silver, and other metal, and as Oxen and wood, whereof the first sort were such, as without the which, the temple could not be built, the other, such as were expressly commanded of God▪ to be used in his service, than I will confess that this place maketh something for you. And (*) Here you disport yourself, with your own imagination. yet if your copes and surplices. etc. should have such a purgation by fire, as those (a) No such purgation to be found in that place. metals had, or ever the Lord would admit them into his treasure house, and should be driven to pass from Popery unto the gospel, by the Chimney, the fire would make such wrack with them, that they should need have better legs, than your arguments, to bring them into the Church. Moreover, do you not see here, that you have not loosed the knot, but cut it? For the authors of the Admonition object the place of Esay. 30. and you object again the places of Deuteronomy, and of the judges, this is to oppose sword against sword: in stead that you should have first held out your buckler, and latched the blow of your adversary. As for Churches, it hath been answered that they have a profitable use, and therefore very evil compared with the surplis, which beside that it bringeth no profit, hurteth also, as is before said. Io. Whitgifte. That wood, that gold, and that Ox. etc. was not so necessary, but that both God might have been served, and the temple builded without them: and therefore that is no answer. Things dedicated to idols may be converted to god's honour. For although gold, wood, oxen. etc. be necessary, yet the gold and silver found in I richo, the Ox reserved by gedeon's father, and wood that was consecrated to Baal, was not so necessary: for there might have been other gold, silver, wood, oxen. etc. provided. In that God commanded these things to be done, you know that S. Augustine (in the epistle ad Publicolam, in the words before rehearsed) doth conclude a general doctrine, that things dedicated to Idols may be converted to common uses, and to the honour of God. For he useth the self-same places to prove the same, and answereth that, which may be alleged to the contrary out of Deuterono. So doth it also the place of Esay quoted in the margin of the Admonition: which answer if it will not satisfy you, then do I further refer you to that, which I have also before alleged out of M. Caluine writing upon the. 23. of Exod. verse. 24. But this place of Esay and such like, are unaptly alleged against the apparel now used, being nothing of that nature, that those things be, whereof the Prophet in that place speaketh. You say: if our copes and surplices. etc. should have such a purgation by fyr . etc. I pray you where read you of any such purgation by fire of those metals before they were admitted into the Lord's treasure house? And what purgation by fire could there be of the wood, or of the ox, before they were used in the sacrifice and s ruice of the Lord? There is no such purging of the things taken in jericho mentioned in that Chapter, but the josu. 6. ver. 24 contrary: for thus it is written. After they burned the city with fire, and all that was therein, only the silver and gold, and the vessels of brass and iron they put into the treasure house of the Lord: and in the place before, where josua is commanded to reserve these things, there is no commandment of any such purging. As your common answer is this, that such things have profitable uses, and therefore may be retained, though they were consecrated to Idols (which is but a shift of your own without any ground) so I say that these vestures have a decent and comely use, and be referred to order, and therefore may be retained likewise although they were used in Idolatry. And if you shall answer and say that there may be other things used more t comely and decently, than I reply, that so there may be places as commodious as these Churches: gold, silver, wood. etc. as good and as profitable as that. And if you object that they be not comely and decent, than I say unto you, that it is your part, and the part of all those, that be obedient, to submit yourselves to the judgement of those that be in authority, except they command such things as be contrary to the commandment of God. Chap. 7. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Fol. 238. Sect. 2. 3. No man 〈◊〉 defile the nature & form of things. To be short, no Devil, no Idol, no Pope can so defile the nature or form (not being contrary to the scriptures) of any of God's creatures, that the liberty of a Christian man should be taken away in using, and not using them. Bucer. And I say again with M. Bucer, that for any thing to be a note of Antichrist, is not in the nature of any creature in itself (for to that end nothing was made of God) but it hangs altogether of consenting to Antichrist's religion, and the professing thereof: The which consent and profession being changed into the consent and profession of Christianity, there can stick in the things themselves no note or mark of Antichrist's religion. The use of bells was a mark of antichristianity in our Churches, when the people by them were called to Masses, and when they were rung against tempests, now they are a token of Cstristianitie, when the people by them are gathered together to the Gospel of Christ, and other holy actions. etc. T. C. Page. 57 Sect. ult. To be short (says M. Doctor) when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word, as he hath cited before, where he hath had his answer. Io. Whitgifte. Surely this jesting spirit was never in any of the Apostles or Martyrs of Christ's Church that I can read: but to pass it over, M. Doctors Short is very shortly answered: the cause whereof I refer to the Reader. Howsoever you jest out the matter, you have neither answered M. Doctors to be short, nor that which is translated. Chap. 7. the third Division. Admonition. They serve not to edification. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 238. Sect. 3 You say also that they do not edify. If you say that they do not edify Ceremonies do not edify of themselves but tend to edification. of themselves, you say truly: for only the holy Ghost on this sort doth edify, by the ministery of the word. But if you say, they edify not at all, that is, that they do not tend to edifying, as other ceremonies and things used in the Church (as Pulpit, Church, kneeling, singing and such like) which be appointed for order and decency, do: then speak you that, which you are not able by sound arguments to justify. Io. Whitgifte. To this not one word. Chap. 7. the fourth Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. ult. Peter Martyr in his epistle written to M. Hooper thinketh that they do edify after a sort as other ceremonies do. And so doth M. Bucer also in his epistle written to M. Alasco. T. C. Pag. 57 Sect. ult. After this he setteth himself to prove that they do edify, and that first by M. Bucers' and M. Martyr's authority, and yet in their words before alleged, there is not a word of edifying, If he gather it of their words, the answer is already made. Io. Whitgifte. I tell you it is in their epistles, not in their words before alleged. M. Bucers' word Bucer. be these. Now if any Church judge and have experience (such as I doubt not there are many at these days in Germany) that the use of such vesture bringeth some commendation to the holy ministration, and thereby helpeth somewhat in the way of comeliness and order, to the increase of faith: What (I pray you) can be brought out of the scriptures why that Church is not left to her own judgement in this matter, neither therefore to be contemned, or to be called into question for her judgement sake? That Church verily will keep in these things a mean agreeable to the cross of Christ, and will diligently attend that no abuse creep into it. Hitherto M. Bucer. To the like effect also writeth M. Martyr in the epistle before named. Chap. 7. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Fol. 239. Sect. 1 Furthermore, that they do edify, it is manifest, first, because they The apparel doth tend to edifying for three causes. are by a lawful magistrate, by lawful authority, for order and decency appointed in the Church, without any manner of superstition, or suspicion of the same. T. C. Pag. 57 Sect. ult. Then he bringeth reasons to prove it, whereof in the first he seemeth to reason that because it is commanded by a lawful magistrate, and lawful authority, therefore it edifyeth. As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time unlawfully, or as though a lawful and a godly magistrate doth not sometimes command things, which are inconvenient and unlawful. Saul was a lawful magistrate, and did command unlawful things. David was a lawful and godly magistrate, and yet there flipt from him commandments, which were neither lawful nor godly. But he addeth that it is done for order, and for decency without superstition, or suspicion of it. This is that, which is in controversy, and aught to be proved, and M. Doctor still taketh it as granted, and still faulteth in the petition of the principle, wherewith he charges others. Io. Whitgifte. That which is appointed in the Church by a lawful magistrate, and by lawful authority for order and decency without any superstition or suspicion of superstition doth edify as other orders do: but it is certain that the apparel now used is so appointed, Ergo, it doth edify as other orders do. You cavil at the mayor, and bring in the examples of Saul and David, to prove that a lawful magistrate did command unlawful things, but you omit the other circumstances contained in the mayor, and therefore you answer not to the purpose. The minor you say is in controversy, and I do fault in the petition of the principle. Surely I do petere the principium, that no good subject can deny. For the queens majesty is a lawful magistrate, the authority of Parliament is a lawful authority, her majesty by that authority hath appointed this apparel, and that as it is protested for comeliness and decency without any superstition, Ergo, the minor is true. If you will yet doubt of comeliness and decency, than I still say unto you, that what is comely and decent, is not every man's part to judge, but the magistrates and such as have authority in the Church. Chap. 7. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 239. Sect. 2. Secondly, because we are by due proof and experience taught, that such as have worn this apparel, and do wear it, by the ministery of the word have greatly edified, and do daily. T. C. Page. 58. Sect. 1 The second reason is, that they that wear this apparel have edified, and do edify, which is, as if a man would say, the midwives which lied unto Pharaoh, did much good amongst the Israelits, Ergo their lying did much good. If he will say, the comparison is not like because the one is not sin in his own nature, whereas the other is sin, then take this: One that stammereth and stutteth in his tongue edifyeth the people, therefore stammering and stutting is good to edify. For what if the Lord give his blessing unto his word, and to other good gifts, which he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplis, etc. Is it to be thought therefore, that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparel? This is to assign the cause of a thing to that, which is not only not the cause thereof, but some hindrance also, and s aching of that, whereof it is supposed to be a cause. For a man may rather reason, that for as much as they which preach with surplis. etc. edify (notwithstanding that they thereby (*) They that are driven away or that cause do give suspicion of Anabaptisme. drive away some, and to othersome give suspicion of evil. etc.) then if they preached without wearing any such things, they should edify much more. And yet if a man were assured to gain a thousand, by doing of that, which may offend, or cause to fall one brother, he aught not to do it. Io. Whitgifte. Indeed, if this apparel were of that nature, that a lie is, your similitude of the midwives had some show in it: and yet must you of necessity confess, that their lying to Pharaoh did much good per accidens: for otherwise the men children of the Israelites, and even Moses himself had been murdered: and you are not ignorant that divers writers in this respect excuse that doing of there's. You know likewise what the opinion of some is, touching that kind of lie that is called officiosum mendacium: but for my part, I am in that point of saint Augustine's judgement. But your similitude is not like: and if it were, yet makes it against you, for their lying did good, as I have said e before. You r other similitude of stammering & stutting is ridiculous, and argueth your great contempt of lawful and decent orders. The laws of this Church have prescribed this apparel to the ministers of the word as decent, orderly, and comely, the same laws have inhibited those to preach, that refuse to submit themselves unto such orders. Wherefore s eing they be appointed as fit garments for preachers, and non may preach, except he receive them, they do edify, not by themselves, as I have before declared, but per accidens, as all other such like things do. For neither the church, nor the Pulpit, nor the bells, nor 〈◊〉 and such other do otherwise edify than per accidens. Touching offence that is taken at the wearing of this apparel, I have showed before, that it is an offence taken and not given: neither is i to be considered whether men be offended or not, but whether they have any just cause of offence. Many be offended with our Churches, and will neither hear sermon, nor receive the sacraments in them: we must not therefore pull down our Churches, or cease to preach, and administer the Sacraments in them. You must remember the distinction of scandalum acceptum and scandalum datum: an offence given, and an offence taken. Chap. 7. the seventh Division. Answer to the Admonition. Fol. 239. Sect. 3 Thirdly, because also by experience we daily understand, that such as consent in wearing this apparel, consent also in all other points of doctrine, and keep the peace of the church, which is one of the principal causes of edifying: contrariwise, such as refuse the same apparel, not only descent & disagree among themselves, but fall into divers & strange opinions without stay: & slander the gospel with their contentiousness, and tear in pieces the Church of Christ with their factions and schisms: and be the cause why both the word of God, and Christian magistrates be almost generally contemned. T. C. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. The third reason is, that they which consent in wearing the surplices, consent also in all other points of doctrine, and they that do not wear it, do not consent, not so much as amongst themselves. I this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice, cope. etc. tell us I beseech you, whether in the matter, or in the form, or in what h dde and unknown quality standeth it? If it be n that the ministers use all one apparel, than it is marvel that this being so strong a bond to hold them together in godly unity, that it was never commanded of Christ, nor practised of Prophets or Apostles, either of no other reformed Churches. I had thought wholly, that those things which the Lord oppoynteth to maintain and keep unity with, and specially the holy Sacraments of Baptism, and of the lords Supper, had been strong enough to have first of all knit us unto the Lord, and therefore also to his doctrine, and then one of us to an other, and that the dissenting in such a Ceremony as a Surplice. etc. neither should nor could in those that 〈◊〉 unto God, break the unity of the Spirit, which is bound with the bond of truth. And although there be which like not this apparel, that think otherwise than either their brethren, or than in deed they ought to do, yet a man may find greater dissent amongst those, which are united in Surplice and Cope. etc. than there is amongst those which wear them not, either with themselves, or with them that wear them. For how many there are that wear Surplices, which would be 〈◊〉 to say a Mass, than to hear a Sermon, let all the world judge. And of those that 〈◊〉 wear this apparel, and be otherwise well minded to the Gospel, are there not which will wear the Surplice and not the cap: other that will wear both cap end surplice, but not the tippet: and yet a third sort, that will wear surplice, cap, and tippet, but not the cop ? It hath been the manner always of wise and learned men to esteem of things by the causes, an not by the event, and that especially in matters of religion, for if they should be esteemed of the event, who is there which will not condemn the Israelites battle against Ay, and 〈◊〉 against the Bemamites? which notwithstanding, the cause which was God's will, and God's mandment, justifieth. And therefore in a word I answer, that if there be such content 'mongst those which like well of this apparel, and such arres amongst those that like it not, as M. 〈◊〉 would make the world believe) neither is the w aring of a surplice. etc. cause of that consent in them, nor the not wearing, cause of that disagreement in the other. But as our knowledge and love is unperfect here in this world, so is our agreement and consent of judgement unperfect. And yet all these hard speeches of yours, or uncharitable suspicions of papism, Anabaptisme, catharisme, dona sme. etc. whereby you do as much (as lieth in you) to cut us clean of from you, shall not be able so to estrange us or separate us from you, but that we will by gods grace hold, whatsoever you hold well, and keep that unity of spirit, which is the bond of truth, even with you Master Doctor whom we s ppose as appeareth by this your book, to have set yourself further from us, than numbers of those, which although they be content to receive the apparel, and bear with things, yet would have been loath to have set down that against the sincerity of the Gospel, and hind rance of reformation, which you have bone. Io. Whitgifte. Such laws & orders as keep godly peace and unity in the Church do 〈◊〉, but the laws for apparel keep godly peace & unity in the Church, Ergo, they edify. The M nor I prove by experience of such as are subject to these laws & by the event: which is a probable kind of reasoning, though it be not necessary: neither may the examples of a few improve that, which is generally true almost in all. These people, that you talk of, which be thus contrarily minded (if there be any such, as I think you do but feign) yet do they keep the peace of the Church, they condemn not their brethren, neither yet the apparel that they themselves (peradventure for some special cause) wear not. Some I know there are, which agree with us in wearing the apparel, and join with you in contention: subscribe to all our orders & articles, and yet in certain places and companies maintain your opinions, but of such we make no account, neither I think do you, further than they may serve your turn. Again I confess that there be some which have not received the apparel, and yet greatly mislike many of your opinions, and keep with us the unity of the Church, whom I for my part have always reverenced, & do reverence not only for their singular virtue & learning, but for their modesty also. Wherefore when I speak either of the one or of the other, I speak not of all, but of the most part. Certain it is, that those things which the Lord appointeth to keep unity with, and especially the sacraments aught to be the especial bond of the same: & that nothing should separate those, that are coupled and joined therein: but we see it fall out o'th' wise, such is the crooked & rebellious nature of man, & therefore hath God also appointed Magistrates, and given them a thoritie to make orders & laws to maintain the peace and unity of the Church, that those which of conscience and good disposition will not, by such laws and orders may be constrained at the lest to keep the external peace and unity of the Church. Do you take this to be a good reason: The Sacrament are bond to keep and maintain the five itie of the spirit, therefore there 〈◊〉 no laws or Magistrates T. . imagineth such a perfection as is not to be ounde. to provide for the external peace and quietness of the Church? your imagination throughout your whole book is of such a perfection in men, as though they needed no laws or Magistrates to govern them, but that every man might be as it were a law to himself, which whereunto it tendeth may easily be conjectured. I have not set down any thing (I trust) to the hindrance of the Gospel, or of reformation▪ but I seek to reform such contentious spirits as be enemies unto both. And I believe that when some other (not only such as you mean, but such as you least think of) shall understand the depth of your opinions, together with the strangeness, untruth, damn gerousnesse & other circumstances joined with them, they will think that I have spoken or written nothing either untruly, or unnecessarily. In the mean time I discharge my conscience and duty, and so will do (God willing) as long as I can either speak or writ. Chap. 7. the eight Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 239. Sect. 4. I here omit that which I might as justly bring for this kind of apparel, as you do for sitting at the communion: I mean a fit & profitable signification, whereof M. Martyr speaketh in the Epistle before mentioned on this sort: I will not here say, that they which stand to the P. Martyr. defence of this matter, may pretend some honest and just signification of the apparel, and that not dissenting from the word of God, which is this: the Ministers of the Church (as the Prophet Malachi witnesseth) be Angels and Gods messengers: but Angels for the most part appeared, being clothed in white garments. I pray you how shall we debar the church of this liberty, that it can not signify some good thing in setting forth their rites and ceremonies, especially being so done, that no manner of God's honour is attributed unto them, and that they be in sight comely, and in number few, and that Christian people be not with them overburdened, and matters of greater importance be omitted. T. C. Pag. 59 Line. 5. The white apparel which is a note and a true representation of the glory and pureness in the Angels, should be a lying sign, and pretence of that, which is not in the Ministers, which are miserable Master Marinell yrs words poe. and sinful men. And our saviour Christ, which was the minister of God, and pure from sin, and therefore meetest to wear the marks of pureness, used no such kind of weed, saving only for that small time, wherein he would give to his disciples in the mount, a taste of that glory which he should enjoy for ever, and they with him: where for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow. And if it be meet that the ministers should represent the Angels in their apparel, it is much more meet, that they should have a pair of wings as the Angels are described to have, to put them in remembrance of their readiness and quickness to execute their office, which may & aught to be in them, than to wear white apparel, which is a token of pureness from sin and infection, and of a glory, which neither they have, nor can have, nor aught so much as to desire to have, as long as they be in this world. And whereas the maintainers of this apparel, have for their greatest defence, that it is a thing mere civil: to let pass, that they confound ecclesiastical orders with civil (which they can no more justly do, than to confound the Church with the common wealth) I say to let that pass, they do by this means not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremony, but also a matter of conscience. For if oh be that the white apparel of the Minister have any force, either to move the people, or the Minister unto greater pureness, or to any other godliness whatsoeve , than it is that which aught to be commanded, and to be obeyed of necessity, and to be retained, although the contrary were forbidden. And then also if there be a virtue in a whitegarment, and the 〈◊〉 thereof be so strong to work godliness, it were meet that order were taken, (a) Here you play with a feather. that the whitest clot should be bought, that should be often (at the least every week once) washed by a very good la nder, and with soap: for if the white (b) You understand not this topical place: for it ho death in those hangs on lie, quae ꝑ 〈◊〉 aliquid ac. unt. help, more white helpeth more, and that which is most white, helpeth most of all to godliness. Although the Church have authority to make Ceremonies (so they be according to the rules before recited of God's glory, and profiting the congregation) I could for all that never yet learn that it had power to give new significations, as it were to institute new Sacraments. And by this means is taken clean away from us, the hold which we have against the Papists, whereby (against all the goodly shows which they make by the colour of these significations) we say that the word of God, and the Sacraments of Baptism, and of the Supper of the Lord, are sufficient to teach, to admoni he, and to put us in remembrance of all duty whatsoever. So we are now come to the superstition of the Grecians, for as they will have neither graven nor cared image in their Churches, but painted, so will we neither have graven nor carved, nor painted, but woven. And truly I see no cause why w may not have as well holy water and holy bread, if this reason which is here, be good: for I am sure the significations of them are as glorious as this of the surplice, and call to remembrance as necessary things. And if it be said, that it may not be, least the number of Ceremonies should be to to great, it may be easily answered, that these which we have may be taken away, and those set in place of them. And therefore although the surplice have a black spottè, when it is whitest, yet is it not so black as you make it with your white significations, nor the cause so cu ll, as you d fiend it. If you press me with M. Martyrs and M. Bucers' authority, (c) An easy kind of answering. I first say they were men, therefore (although otherwise very watchful) yet such as slept some times. And then I appeal from their Apocryphas, unto their known writings, and from their private letters unto their public records. Io. Whitgifte. I have here only set down M. Martyr's words to show that I might as justly bring in a fit and profitable signification of the apparel, as the authors of the Admonition do of sitting at the communion. I did not allow their signification of sitting, neither do I approve any such signification of Apparel: but yet you will give me leave to set the one against the other, and to show that I might aswell do the one as they do the other. You pervert Master Martyrs words: for he saith that for as much as Angels appeared Mere civil things may have signification. in white apparel, and the Ministers of the Church be Angels and Gods messengers, therefore the Church may appoint to her Ministers such apparel in signification of their office. Which you do not answer, but range up and down at your pleasure like unto a spaniel not taught to follow his game. M. Martyr doth not say that the apparel is a sign of pureness that is in the Minister: and therefore all this that you The form of apparel may put a man in mind of 〈◊〉 duty. writ in confuting of that, might have been cut off, and very well spared. But if Master Martyr should have said that it may be a sign of the pureness that ought to be in Ministers, you are to seek for an answer as yet. Christ being purity itself needed nothing to put him in mind thereof, but man being impure may have external instruments to bid him (as it were) remember what he aught to be. I think that several kinds of habits be appointed to men of diverse degrees and calling, partly for that purpose: and if a man in grave apparel use himself lightly or wanton, we use commonly to say such behaviour becometh not that apparel, meaning that his habit and apparel ought to put him in mind of modesty and gravity: and this doth argue that even mere civil things may have significations, which overthroweth an other argument of yours, whereby you would prove that the apparel must of necessity be an ecclesiastical ceremony, because there is attributed unto it some signification. Whether it be a matter meare civil, or mere Ecclesiastical, or mixed of both, is not now the question, neither yet whether the Church may be confounded with the common wealth or not, and therefore I will not here deal with any of them, least I should confound both the matter, and the Reader: only I speak of your argument, which is confuted by common usage: for several habits in the universities signify several degrees in learning: several kind of apparel, several callings and functions in the common wealth: and this apparel doth put every man in mind of his duty, and yet they are not longer to be retained than the Magistrate and the laws do permit: but are alterable according to times, places, and people: Not man saith that there is virtue in such garments or power to work godliness, and therefore your pretty jests builded upon that ground are vain and toyish, and your topical place not rightly understanded: for it is meant of such things, quae per se aliquid faciunt. Every thing that signifieth any thing is not a sacrament, for than were Matrimony asacrament, and so were laying on of hands, and such like. The Papists used unlawful signs, and attributed unto them life and death, for they made them necessary to salvation. Images whether they be graven, painted or woven, are against the express commandment of God, and therefore these be unapt similitudes, neither would you have used them, if you had well considered M. Martyr's words. The same I answer to your allegation of holy water and holy bread, they be pseudoadiaphora, and have annexed unto them opinion of salvation and of worship: all which we utterly remove from these orders. Your answer to M. Martyrs & M. Bucers' authority is sure, but not greatly commendable: T. C. refuseth the judgement of learned men, when he cannot otherwise anwere them. In mens wri tings the circumstances of time and place must be distin guished. for it is the easiest, but the worst answer that can be to deny the authority of wise, learned, & famous men, & that without reason, & only by cavilling. These be their known writings, and they be written of purpose upon these controversies according to the circumstances of time, place and person, and therefore if any thing in their public writings seem to be against their judgements here, distinguish the time and other circumstances, and I doubt not but they will well agree with themselves. Interim, you do your endeavour to deface them. Chap. 7. the ninth Division. Admonition. They have the show of evil, (seeing the Popish priesthood is evil.) Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 240. Sect. 2. When they were a sign and token of the Popish priesthood, than How apparel is a sign of evil, and how otherwise. were they evil, even as the thing was, which they signified: but now they be the tokens & the signs of the ministers of the word of God which are good, & therefore also they be good: no man in this Church of England is so ignorant, but that he knoweth this apparel not to be now the signs of a Massing Priest, but of a lawful Minister: wherefore it is a show of good: even as it is in the like manner in the universities a show and sign of degrees in learning, and therefore a show of good, except you will also condemn degrees of learning. Neither is it any strange matter, for the self same thing in diverse respects, and at diverse times, to be the sign both of good and evil. The bells were a sign of evil, when they were rung to call to Mass, and to stay storms and tempests, the self same bells are now a sign of good, when they be rung to Sermons and other godly actions. The Churches themselves were a sign of evil, when Idolatry was committed in them, & false doctrine preached: now they be a sign of good, when God is rightly worshipped in them: & his word truly preached. Many such examples I could bring, but a reasonable man can gather of these sufficiently to confute your error. furthermore when we be willed to abstain from all show of evil, it is meant of evil life, and evil doctrine, lest we do any thing with a scrupulous conscience. T. C. Pag. 59 towards the end. M. Doctor proceedeth to prove that they are signs & shows of good & not of evil, as the authors of the Admonition allege. To the proof whereof, although (according to his manner) he repeateth diverse things before alleged, yet the sum of all he hath comprehended in an argument, which is, that for so much as the ministers are good which wear them, therefore they are also good: and because the ministers, whereof the apparel are notes, and marks, be good: therefore those be good notes and good marks: so the reason is, they are notes, and notes of good ministers, therefore they be good notes of the ministers. So I will prove the names of Idols to be fit and convenient names for good men to be called by. Beltshaser, Saddrake, Misacke, and Abed-nego were names of Daniel and his three companions, and they were the names of good men, therefore they are good names of men. And so the names of the Babylonian Idols, are by this reason of M. Doctor justified to be good names. Again the golden calf, was a sign. Also it was (*) Untruth. a sign of the true God: therefore it was a true sign of God. Concerning the notes of civil professions, and what difference is between those and this cause, I have spoken before. Io. Whitgifte. The Admonition saith thus: they have the show of evil, seeing the popish priesthood is evil. To this I answer that when they were a sign & token of the popish priesthood, than they were evil, & a sign of evil, because the thing was evil, which they signified: but now they are tokens of the Ministers of the Gospel which are good, and therefore they are good, & the signs of good. The reason is M. Bucers': I am not ashamed of my author, and it is stronger than you can overthrow. For let me hear how you will answer this argument: whatsoever signifieth and noteth that which is good, is a sign of good: but this apparel signifieth that which is good, Ergo, it is a sign of good. The Mayor is evident. The Minor is thus proved. The ministery of the Gospel is good: but this apparel is a sign of the ministery of the Gospel, Ergo it is a sign of good. All the Logic you have can not answer this argument, except you will deny the apparel to be the sign of the ministery of the Gospel, which were to deny that which is subject to the senses: the other examples that I have used, doth make this matter more manifest. I refer it to the Reader to judge how fitly you have answered them. Whether they be good signs, or not, is not now the question, but whether they be signs of good, for that the Admonition denieth. If you can conclude that they be evil, because they be signs of evil, why may not I likewise say that they be good, because they be signs of good. We commonly call that a good sign, which is a sign of good, neither can you place this reason in any fallacian, it is a sign of good, Ergo, it is a good sign: for it is called a good sign in this respect only, that it signifieth that, which is good. Those names in respect of those whom they signified were good: in the respect of the external things may be both good and evil in divers respects. The divers 〈◊〉 used b T. C. in answering. Idols, to whom they properly belonged, they were evil: for such external things in divers respects may be both good & evil. The golden calf was an Idol made to be worshipped, no sign of the true God, and therefore undiscreetly here brought in. Wheresoever I have before alleged these things you speak of, yet be they answered neither here nor there: & this the Reader may note if he list, that wheresoever you cannot answer, there either you frump & gird after your manner, or you cavil and confute your own imagination, or closely pass the matter over in silence, or post it over to some other place, where you speak nothing of it. Chap. 7. the tenth Division. Admonition. They work discord, they hinder the preaching of the Gospel. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 241. Sect. 2. This is an argument à non causa ad causam: it is not the apparel that Non causa procausa. worketh discord, or hindereth the preaching of the Gospel, not, no more than it is the word of God that engendereth heresies, or wine that maketh drunk, or the sword that murdereth, or the law that worketh injury. etc. But it is the sinister affection, the rebellious nature, the contentious mind of man. For who began this contention, or when was it begun? Truly if the law for apparel were utterly abrogated, yet would not your contention cease, nay, it would burst out much more vehemently, and in far greater matters, as this your Admonition declareth. And therefore I think rather, that the law for apparel will stay further contentions, especially if it be duly executed. T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 1 You say the cause of disorder is not in the apparel, but in the minds of men. You mean I am sure, those that refuse the apparel, but if you make them authors of discord, because they consent not with you in wearing, do you not see it is (*) It is as soon said but not so truly, because the one reteyneth yneth order, and the other breaketh it. assoon said, that you are the causers of discord, because you do not consent with those which wear not? For as there should be unity in that point if all did wear that apparel, so should there be, if all did wear none of it. It is a very unequal comparison that you compare the use of this apparel, with the use of wine, and of a sword, which are profitable and necessary, but it is more intolerable, that you match it with the word of God. I could throw it as far down, as you light it up, but I will not do so. This only I will say, if there were no harm in it, and that it were also profitable, yet forasmuch as it is not commanded of God expressly, but a thing (as you say) indifferent, and notwithstanding is cause of so many incommodities, and so abused (as I have before declared) it aught to be sufficient reason to abolish them: seeing that the brazen serpent, which was instituted of the Lord himself, and contained a profitable remembrance of the wonderful benefit of God towards his people, was beaten to powder, when as it began to be an occasion of falling unto the children of Israel: and seeing that S. Paul after the love feasts (which were kept at the administration of the lords 1. Cor. 11. Supper, and were means to nourish love amongst the Churches) were abused and drawn to another use than they were first ordained, did utterly take them away, and command that they should not be used any more. Io. Whitgifte. I may answer you almost in the self same words and manner, that M. Zuinglius answered one Balthasar an Anabaptist, who charged him then, as you charge us now Zuinglius ad. Balt. in this place: consider, says he, who be the authors and causes of dissension: whether we that attempt nothing of our own private authority, but have submitted ourselves to the judgement of the Church, and of those that be governors of the same, or rather you, who so arrogantly, without any such authority do what you list, speak what you list, allow and condemn at your pleasure▪ But for further trial hereof, I refer you to such notes, as I have collected out of Zuinglius and others, and placed in the second edition of my Pag. 19 etc. Answer to the Admonition. Our consenting is according to our duty required of us by the word of God towards such as be in authority: your dissenting is contrary to your duty of obedience in such cases enjoined unto you by the word of God. If all refused the apparel with you, yet would you not be quiet, for you make this the lest cause of your schism. I do not compare this apparel with the word of God, but by these examples I show the unaptness of such arguments as be à non causa ad causam. You have thrown it down as low as you can, and if you could cast it lower, your will is good, & therefore to say you could do it and will not, is as great an offence as was the midwives lying to Pharaoh. I have showed in my answer, that as the case now standeth, it is rather commodious: as for abuses in it, as it is now used, you have hitherto showed none, & if it were abused, yet doth it not follow that therefore it is to be removed, except the abuse could not be taken away without the abolishing of the thing, as it was in the brazen serpent: which serpent though it was by God commanded to be set up, yet was it (as M. Martyr says) but for that time, wherein power was given unto it to heal and cure those that were bitten of the serpents, Num. 21. and therefore being but temporal, and thus abused, Num. 〈◊〉. was lawfully taken away, neither would the Idolatry committed unto it otherwise have ceased. But do you think that any man doth worship the apparel, as the Israelites did worship the serpent? S. Paul in that Chapter of the. 1. Cor. reproveth 1. Cor. 11. them for certain abuses about the Lords Supper, whereof this was one of the chief, that they made it an occasion of feasting and banqueting, which manner of feasting in the Church was not only borrowed of the gentiles, as M. Bullinger saith, but occasion also of much contention, and very unseemly for that time and place. And as Master Caluine saith upon that place. The Corinthians are reproved, because they had mingled Caluine. profane banquettes (and that also with the contumely of the poor) with that holy and spiritual feast: and therefore expedient it was, that they should betaken away, and if you can show the like uncurable abuse in the apparel, I will cry away with it, as fast as you do. Chap. 7. the. 11. Division. Admonition. They keep the memory of Egypt still amongst us, and put us in mind of that abomination whereunto they in times past have served, they bring the ministery into contempt, they offend the weak, they encourage the obstinate. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 241. Sect. 3. 4. 5. You say, they keep the memory of Egypt still amongst us. etc. Not truly, no more than doth the Church, the Pulpit, the Bells. etc. but they teach us the true use of Christian liberty: and that all things be clean to those that be clean. Finally, that godly men may well use that which wicked have abused, howsoever ungodly. They bring the ministery into contempt: Only with you, and such as you (by your continual crying out against them) have deluded: contemners of good orders, laws, and statutes, are to be severely punished for their contempt. Good laws, orders, and statutes are not to be altered or dissolved, because by such as forget their duties, they are contemned. They offend the weak, and encourage the obstinate: Those that be offended with them, think themselves most strong, and glory therein with condemning of others. The obstinate be encouraged through the schisms, & contentions, that you trouble the Church, and slander the Gospel with: which one day you will understand, if in time you do not repent. T. C. Page. 60. Sect. 2. The rest of that which followeth in this matter, is nothing else, but either that which hath been oftenti es repeated, or else reproachful words, or unjust accusations of contempt of Magistrates, without any proof at all, and therefore are such as either are answered, or which I will not voutches e to answer, especially seeing I mean not to (*) T we, for 〈◊〉 ave 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for one. give reproach and reviling for reviling: and seeing that I have before protested of our humble submission, and loving fear or reverence, which we bear to the Prince, and those which are appointed Magistrates underneath her. Io. Whitgifte. This is a short answer, to say you will not vouchsafe to answer. What reproachful words, or unjust accusations are here uttered by me? except this offend you, that I say, contemners of good orders, laws, and statutes, are to be severely punished for their contempt. Good laws, orders, and statutes are not to be altered and dissolved, because by such as forget their duties, they be contemned. If this cast you into that choler, I can not mend it: you must bear with me when I speak the truth. Whether of us two have more offended in reproachings and revilings, because we are both partial in our own causes, let us refer it to the indifferent Readers. How far you are from performing that in deed to the Magistrates, that you protest in word, is in another place declared. Chap. 7. the twelfth Division. T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 3 And therefore I will conclude, that forsomuch as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie, are not, nor can not be, the fittest to set forth the Gospel, and for that they are occasions of fall to some, of hindrance to other some, of grief and alienation of minds unto others (the contrary of all which aught to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the Church) therefore neither is this apparel fittest for the minister of the Gospel, and if it were, yet considering the incommodities that come of the use of it, it should be removed. Io. Whitgifte. This conclusion consists wholly upon false principles, whereof though some of them have been before spoken, yet not one of them proved: for trial whereof I refer the Reader to that, which we have both written of this matter. The Admonition. The twelfth. Then as God gave utterance (b) john. 6. 38. joh. 12. 49. 1. Co. 11. 23 they preached the word only: Now they read homilies, Articles, Injunctions. etc. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 62. Sect. 3 here you quote in the margent the sixte of john, verse. 38. where Christ saith, that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his father that sent him. Likewise the twelfth of john, verse. 49. where also he saith, that he hath not spoken of himself, but the father that sent him, gave him commandment what he should say, and what he should speak. And the first to the Corinthians. 11. Chapter, verse. 23. where S. Paul saith, that he received of the Lord that which he delivered unto them. No man denieth but that the word of God only aught to be preached, and that as God giveth utterance. But do you mean that we may not study for our sermons, or that we may speak nothing but the very Scriptures may be amplified. text of Scripture, without amplifying or expounding the same? when I know your meaning herein, you shall understand more of my mind. In the mean time, this I am sure of, that the Homilies appointed to be read in the Church, are learned, godly, agreeable to God's word, and more effectual to edification, than a number of your Sermons, which consist in words only, and entreat of little else, but of cap, surplice. etc. Archbishop, Lord Bishop. etc. the end whereof is not edification, but contention. Homilies read in the Church have always been commendable, Homilies read in the Church are commendable. and usual even from the beginning, look Augustine, Chrysostom and others: and why may not Articles and Injunctions, being collected to the setting forth of true Religion and good orders in the Church be read there also as in a most meet place? But I perceive you are enemies to reading, because you love so well to hear yourselves talking, I will say no worse. T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 4. You know they allow studying for sermons, and amplifying & expounding of the scriptures, and why then do you ask? But by this question you would have your Reader think, or at the lest have the Authors of the Admonition in suspicion, that they liked not of study for sermons. God make us more careful of the good name of our brethren, than by such light and ungrounded suspicions, nay without any suspicion, nay, contrary to that which is daily seen & hard, to raise up such slanderous reports of them. But Homilies are smally beholding unto you, which to prove that they may be read in the Church, allege that Augustine and Chrysostom made sermons in their Churches: for that which we call a sermon, they called of the Greek word an Homily, so that the argument is, that Augustine and Chrysostom preached sermons or homilies in their Churches, therefore we may read Homilies in ours. But peradventure you have some better thing to say for them afterward. Io. Whitgifte. I have herded some fautors of there's earnestly reason against studying for sermons, and it is not long since it was almost in plain terms in the Pulpit preached. I think they study for their sermons, but how diligently they study, or whether they would seem to study, or not, I know not: the words of the Admonition are very suspicious. That which I speak of Augustine and Chrysostom aptly serveth for my purpose: for although they were Augustine's and Chrysostom's sermons, yet in that they have both committed them to writing, and left them to their posterity, it argueth that they thought them to be very profitable for the Church: Neither do I see any cause why they should rather now be thought unlawful to be read, than they were then to be preached: but yet one thing we may note, that both Augustine and Chrysostom writ their Homilies or sermons, and therefore it may be that they did also sometime read them in the Church. Of Archebishops, metropolitans, Bishops, Archedeacons'. etc. Tract. 8. The reasons of T. C. answered, whereby he goeth about to take away the superfluous lop (as he termeth it) of these offices. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. The thirteenth and fourtenth. Then (c) 1. Tim. 3. 1. it was painful: now gainful. (d) Phil. 4. 11. 2. Cor. 6. 4. 8. 10. Then poor and ignominious: now rich and glorious. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 63. Sect. ult. It was then as it useth to be under the cross. And it is now as it Scil the ministery. useth to be when God doth bless it with peace, quietness, and godly Magistrates: And yet surely even now it is more painful than gainful, more ignominious than rich and glorious: and that do those know that bear the heat of the day. But it is the more The ministery is now more painful than gainful. painful and ignominious for you, who cease not with railing and spiteful words in Pulpits and at tables, to deprave and backbite your brethren, & to trouble the whole state with your factions and daily invented new opinions: the persecution of the sword ceaseth, but the persecution of the tongue is extreme hot: and we who gain so much, and be so glorious, are molested aswell by you, as by the Papist, and Atheist: and therefore not very glorious. T. C. Pag. 61. Sect. 1 A hundredth pounds by year is taken of some benefice, for which four sermons only are preached, and those sometimes by an other. If this be more painful than gainful, it is because the horseleeche hath two daughters, give, give. etc. And I can not seehowe they can be more glorious, Pro. 30. unless the Palace were turned into a Court, and their chair into a throne. There are divers The twelfth of Mat. strangely applied. places that God hath blessed with peace; where the ministers take more pain, and have Math. 12. less gain; and which make (*) less noises, when they go in the streets. We have (a) A vain brag, thoug it were true. amongst us which have had bishoprics offered, and as things unmeet for a minister of the Gospel, have refuse them▪ God be praised the sun shines not so hot in this country now, that you need to complain of any great heat, and if you feel any heat, you have better shade than jonas had by his gourd▪ Io. Whitgifte. It may be that he which hath an hundredth pounds by the year, for which four sermons only are preached. etc. (if there be any such) taketh more pains for the Church, is more careful for the state of it, suffereth more opprobrious words, and false slanders (which is not the lest kind of persecution) for doing his duty, and keeping himself within the lists of obedience towards God and his Prince, than those do that glory most of persecution, and lack of living. He that hath much, is also occasioned to spend much: neither is his pains the less, but more, if he be once desirous to do his duty. And the higher he is in degree, the more subject to the envious backbiter, and to the slanderous tongue. Those that have such Palaces, and make such noise when they go in the streets. etc. I think verily take more pains and care in and for the Church of God, profit their Country more in one month, than you and all your company do in a whole year: Nay, I would to God it might be said you profited. Their pomp and their Palaces are by lawful authority committed unto them, and the true Martyrs of God have occupied the same, or the like before them, and yet Martyrs too. Who amongst you they be that have had bishoprics offered unto them, I know not: but if they boast of their denial, and have suborned you to make it known, they have their reward. It may be the Bishopric was to little for them, and they looked for some greater, and so miss both: but I will not judge: surely this brag cometh here out of place. The heat of the tongue and backbiter, both I and other may greatly complain of: and I hope we get not our living by going up and down the streets, and feasting daily at other men's tables, or as Diogenes did, by disdaining and contemning all others. Melius est vinum bibere cum ratione, quàm aquam cum fastu & superbia, It is better to drink wine with discretion, than water with haughtiness and pride. It is also more acceptable to God to devil in a Palace, and live in abundance, with doing a man's duty toward God and his Church, than to lie in prison for disdain and contempt. Godly men may enjoy preferment, and such as be arrogant and wilful, may seem to contemn the same. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Admonition. And therefore titles, livings, & offices by Antichrist devised, are given to them, as Metropolitan, archbishop, lords grace, Lord Bishop, suffragan, Deane, archdeacon, Prelate of the garter, Earl, County Palatine, Honour, high Commissioners, justices of Peace and Quorum. etc. All which together with their offices, as they are strange and unheard of in Christ's Church, nay plainly (f) Ma. 23. 11. 12. Luc. 22. 25. 1. Cor. 4. 1. 1. Pet. 5. 2. 3 in Christ's word forbidden: so are they utterly with speed out of the same to be removed. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 64. Sect. 2. here you are in your ruff, but you show your ignorance and contemptuous stomach. You have given sentence that the names of Metropolitan, archbishop. etc. and their offices, were devised by antichrist. Likewise that they are strange and unheard of in Christ's Church. Also that they be plainly in God's word forbidden: and last that they are utterly with speed to be removed. If you can prove all these points, it is time the Church were transformed, and the whole kind of government of this Realm altered. But if you can not prove them, than is it high time that such insolency should be repressed, and perturbers of Churches and common wealths reformed. Well, I must do the best I can to improve all these points, which I might do sufficiently, if I should as barely deny them, as you have affirmed them: but I will not deal so nakedly in so great a matter. T. C. Pag. 61. Sect. 2. Of those offices something hath been spoken before, where it hath been proved out of the words of Christ, that neither the names, nor offices of Archbishop, or Archdeacon's do agreed to the ministery of the Gospel. Now as M. Doctor bestoweth great cost here, and travel in digging about them, and laying (as it were) new earth to their roots, that they being half dead, if it were possible, might be recovered and quickened again. So I (*) 1. Because they flourish more prosperously, than the envious man can well bear. (because these trees mount up so high, and spread their boughs and arms so broad, that for the cold shade of them, nothing can grow and thrive by them) will before I come to answer these things that are here alleged, set down certain reasons (as it were instruments) to take away the superfluous lop and spread of their immoderate offices. Io. Whitgifte. T. C. hath a special quarrel against Archebishops, Bishops, and other that have T. C. maketh his chief quarrel against those in authority in the Church, and why he so doth. What kind of equality is pretended. the name of authority and degree in the Church. For he perceiveth that they be the principal stops and hindrances of his confused platform, and that also they be the enemies unto sects and contentions, wherewith he is so greatly delighted. Moreover he and many of his adherents, be of that nature whereof Cesar and Pompey were reported to be: the one could abide no superior, the other no equal: even so is it with them, as it is well known to those that have been conversant with some of them. And although they pretend equality in words, yet if you mark well their writings, it shall easily appear, that they mean it in others, not in themselves, for they would have him to be the best rewarded, & most reverenced, that hath the most & best gifts, which every one of these chief captains persuaded himself to have: so that in the end there would be as great a do (after their manner) which of them should be the chief, as ever there was betwixt the Bishop of Rome, and other Bishops, or betwixt Canterbury and York in times past. In the mean time you may easily understand, if you please, that notwithstanding they themselves would be exempted from the jurisdiction of Archbishop, Lord Bishop. etc. yet do they challenge unto themselves as great jurisdiction over their Parishes, and as lofty dominion over Prince, Nobles, and all, as ever the Pope did over the whole Church, as shall (God willing) be more fully declared, when I come to speak of their signory and kind of government. Now to his Reply. Where hath something been spoken before of these offices & names? Or what arguments have you hitherto used to prove that they do not agree to the Ministers of the Gospel: If you have so done, I trust you are fully answered in that same place. But I promise' you I do not presently remember where you have hitherto done it. If you mean the places of Math. 20. etc. you have your full answer. I have bestowed the more cost and labour in this matter, because I see your chief force bend against it. For mark you who will, all your drift is against superiors. But let us hear your reasons. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 61. Sect. 3 And for the names first, I desire the reader, that we be not thought studious of contention, because we strive about the name of Archbishop. etc. For this is not to strive about words, unless it be counted a strife of words, which is taken for the maintenance of the word of God, as it hath before appeared out of the Evangelists. Then it must be remembered which Aristotle saith very well in his Elenches, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is, that names are imitations, or as it were, express images of the things whereof they are names, and do for the most part bring to him that heareth them, knowledge of the things that are signified by them. Howsoever the thing be itself, yet oftentimes it is supposed to be as the name pretendeth, & thereupon followeth that a man may be easily deceived, when the names do not answer to the things whereof they are names. There may be (I grant) a free and more licentious use of names, but that licence is more tolerable in any thing, rather than in matters of the Church & salvation. And if there be some cases, wherein names that are not so proper, may be born with, yet are there also which are intolerable. As who can abide that a minister of the Gospel should be called by the name of Levi e, or sacrificer, unless it be he which would not care much, if the remembrance of the death and resurrection of our saviour Christ, were plucked out of his mind? Again it is unlawful for any man to take upon him those titles which are proper to our saviour Christ: but the title (*) If Christ be called an Archbishop, then is not the title devised by Antigona hrist. of an Archbishop is only proper to our saviour Christ, therefore no man may take that unto him. That it is proper to our saviour Christ, appeareth by that which S. Peter saith, where he calleth him 1. Epist. 5. Heb. 13. Act. 3. 5. Heb. 1 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is Archesheph ard, or Archbishop: for Bishop and shepherd are all one. And in the Hebrues where he is called the great shepherd of the sheep: and in the Acts, and Hebrues, archeleader of life & of salvation, which titles are never found to be given unto any, but unt our saviour Christ, and are proper titles of his mediation, and therefore can not be without old presumption, applied unto any mortal man. Io. Whitgifte. To contend about names, when there is an agreement of the matter and substance, hath alway been taken for a manifest note of a contentious Sophister. But your answer is ready that you contend for the substance also, which 〈◊〉 true you might have cut of the most part of this section, whereby you would excuse yourself for improving the name of an archbishop. But to come to the purpose, you say It is unlawful for any man to take upon him those titles, which are proper to our saviour Christ: but the title of Archbishop is only proper to our saviour Christ, therefore. etc. The minor you prove by the words of S Peter. 1. Epist. chap. 5. where he calleth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Acts. 3. 5. and. 13. to the Hebrues. etc. where he is called the great shepherd of the sheep, archeleader. etc. But before I come to your minor, I must a little better search your mayor, for you pass it over smoothly, as though there could be nothing said unto it. I grant that those names which be proper unto God, can not be given to any other, Names proper to God may in some respect be attributed to other. in that respect that they are proper unto God: but that they can in no other respect be attributed to any other, it is untrue, and against the manifest words of the scriptures. What name is more proper unto God, than is this name, God. And yet is the same also attributed unto man. Moses Exod. 7. is called Pharaoes' God, because he was Gods minister to speak unto Phar. oh in his name, and to execute his judgements upon him. Nec verò (as M. Calvin saith) quicquam sibi detr xit Deus. etc. Cal. in Harm. Neither did God derogate any thing from himself, in that he transferred (his name) unto Moses, because he doth so communicate that, which is proper to himself with his ser ants, that he still remaineth whole. In the. 22. of Exod. the judges are called Gods, in the. 82. Psalm, Magistrates are called Gods also. In the. 23 of Math. Christ speaketh of the names of Master, Father, & Doctor, as proper to himself, for he saith, be not y called Rabbi, for one is your master, to wit Christ. etc. And call no man your father upon earth, for there is but one your father, which is in heaven. Be not called Doctors for one is your Doctor, even Christ, and yet no man is so ignorant that he will deny these names to be common to others, though not in the same respects, as I have showed before. Christ also calleth himself a Pastor, joh. 10. and so doth S. Peter call him Bishop and Pastor, 1. Epist. 3. and so he is properly & of himself, & yet these names be communicated with other. In the. 8. of joh. he is called Lux mundi, which is a most proper name, aptly given unto him, & yet doth he himself give the same name to his Disciples, Mat. 5. divers such examples might I show for the improving of your mayor, but these be sufficient. Thus therefore I answer in few words, both to your mayor & minor, that some How the name Archbishop may be transferred rred to other than Christ. names that be proper to God are also attributed unto man, but not in the same respect: for they belong unto God properly and per s , to man per accidens, and in respect that he is the minister of God, and such other like causes. And therefore although this name Archshepheard, or (if you will) Archbishop, be proper to Christ in the respect that he is not only the chief shepherd, but also the only shepherd, to whom the sheep do properly pertain, and to whom all the other shepherds must of necessity submit themselves, and in whose name, and under whom only, the Church is governed, yet in the respect of the external policy of the Church, & of Pastors and Bishops that are to be kept & directed in such things as pertain to their duty, the same name of Archbishop may aptly & fitly be attributed unto him, that hath the ordering and direction of the rest, in the external government of the Church. But while you confounded the spiritual and the external regiment of the church, The 〈◊〉 and external gone rnment confounded. you confound both yourself and your reader also: In the spiritual regiment Christ is only the pastor: and all other be his sheep. In the external regiment there be many other Pastors: In the spiritual regiment Christ is only the Archbishop, and governeth all to whom all other must make their account, not in the external government there be many Archbishops, as the state of every church requireth. In the spiritual government Christ is only the prince, the king, the judge, and in respect of him all other be subjects: but in the external government, there be several countries, several kings, princes, magistrates, judges. Again in the spiritual kingdom of Christ, & regiment of his Church, there is no respect of persons sons, but all be equal: In the external regiment & government there is and must be degrees of people: To be short, in respect of Christ and his spiritual government, there is neither Magistrate nor Archbishop. etc. But in the respect of men, and the external face of the Church, there are both, and that according to Christ's own order, as shall hereafter be declared. So that now you may perceive your error to be in not rightly distinguishing the states, and times of the Church and government. Chap. 1. the fourth Division. T. C. Page. 61. Sect. 4. And if any man will reply and say, that it is not said that our saviour Christ is only Archbishop: I answer that he is not only said the head, and yet notwithstanding there is no more heads or the church but he: And i it be further said, that these Archbishops are but under and as it were subordinate Archbishops, I say that a man may as well say, that men may be also underheades of the church, which is the ame which is alleged for the Pope. Which thing is not only true in those words which do signify and set unlawful things before our eyes, but even in those names also which having no corruption in their own nature, yet through the corrupt use of men, have s it were got such a tack of that corruption, that the use of them can not be without offence. Io. Whitgifte. He is only Archbishop and Bishop in respect of his spiritual government which he keepeth only unto himself, and in the respect that all other be under him, & have their authority from him. But this name may also aptly be given unto 〈◊〉 that have the oversight of other bishops in the external government of the Church in the which as I have said, Magistrates be called Gods. Christ is the only head of the Church, if by the head you understand that which giveth How Christ is the only head of the church. the body life, sense, and motion: For Christ only by his spirit doth give life and nutriment to his body: He only doth pour spiritual blessings into it, and doth inwardly direct and govern it. Likewise he is only the head of the whole Church, for that title can not agreed to any other: But if by the head you understand an xternall ruler or governor of any particular nation, or Church, (in which signification head is usually taken) than I do not perceive why the Magistrate may not How the ma gistrat 〈◊〉 be called 〈◊〉 of the church. as well be called the head of the Church, that is the chief governor of it in the external policy, as he is called the head of the people, and of the common weal h. And as it is no absurdity to say, that the civil magistrate is head of the common wealth, next and immediately under God (for it is most true) so is it none to say, that under God also he is head of the Church, that is chief governor as I have before said. Constantine in an Epistle that he writeth to the people of Alexandria, Bishops called heads of churches, and yet the Pope's supremacy i usurped. as it is reported by Athanasius Apol. 2. calleth Bishops Ecclesiarum capita, the heads of their Churches. And yet is the Pope's Supremacy usurp d, both because it taketh from Magistrates that which is due unto them, and also usurpeth the authority of christ in remitting and retaining sins, in making Laws contrary to God's Laws, which he sayeth be necessary to Salvation, in making his Supremacy a matter of Salvation, and in challenging authority over the whole Church of Christ, and an hundredth such like presumptions. The Archbishop being both under God and his Prince, hath his name only in respect of his authority in certain causes above other Bishops, and that but in one province or kingdom only, neither can either the name or use of it (as it is in this Church) offend any but such as be offended with all superiors, and think that none aught to be better than themselves. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 1. 2. In the primitive church, the * name of a Pope was honest, & was all one with the name of a good Tertull. lib. de 〈◊〉 Cyp. li. 27. Jerome in his epistles to Augustine. pastor: but now by the ambition of the man of Rome, it is so defiled that every good man shaketh at the very mention of it. The name of a tyrant was first honourable, and the same with a king, and yet through cruelty and unjust rule of certain, it is become now so hateful, that no upright and just dealing Prince, none that governeth with equity, and to the commodity of his subjects, would bear to be called tyrant: whereby it may appear that it is not for naught, that we do stand of these names. Io. Whitgifte. Papa signifieth a father, and was in times passed common to all Bishops, but now it is proper to the bishop of Rome, and therefore hated for his sake, whom it now signifieth. So tyrannus. sometime signified a king generally, no e it signinifyeth A lawful name may remain; though it hath been abused. a cruel king, and a bloody governor, and therefore also abhorred. But an Archbishop though the people at sometime have degenerated, yet the name hath continued in the same signification, and therefore the reasen is nothing like, except you will also for the like cause condemn the name of a Bishop, or of a king, for there have been many evil men called by the name of bishops; and many tyrants by the name of kings, and yet the names never the worse. If names should be changed so oft as they be abused, some had need to have an office only to invent new names. There was a certain kind of heretics that called themselves apostolic, and yet the name of an Apostle is never the worse. A lawful name of a lawful office may remain together with the office, howsoever before time it hath been abused. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 2. Now if the names aught to be odious, being both horribly abused, and also * Petitio principii, for you have not yet proved this. forbidden by our Saviour Christ, the things themselves, must be in greater hatred: the unlawfulness whereof may thus appear. Io. Whitgifte. This is a manifest petition of the principle, and in no point as yet proved. But let us hear the reasons why the office should be condemned. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 3 First of all the ministery is by the word of God, and heavenly, and not left to the will of men to Scriptures willingly falsified▪ to make them serve his turn. devise at their pleasure, as appeareth by that which is noted of S. john, where the * The Pharisees made false arguments, and so do you in fo owing them. Pharisees coming to S. john Baptist, after he had denied to be either christ or Elias, or an other prophet * The Pharisees made false arguments, and so do you in fo owing them. conclude if thou be neither Christ, nor Elias, nor of the Prophets, why baptizest thou? which had been no good argument if S. john might have been of some other function than of those which were ordinary in the church, and instituted of God. And therefore S. john to establish his singular and extraordinary function, allegeth the word of God, whereby appeareth, that as it was not lawful to bring in any strange doctrine, so it was not lawful to teach the true doctrine under the name of any other function, than was instituted by God. Io. Whitgifte. This is your first argument, the Pharisees coming to S. john Baptist, after he had denied to be either Christ or Elias, or an other Prophet, conclude, if thou be neither christ nor Elias, nor of the Prophets, why baptizest thou? Ergo, there may be no Archbishops, which is your meaning. But lest you should think that I cavil, I will use your own conclusion, which is this, Ergo there was no other ordinary function in the Church. This argument hath neither head nor foot, form nor matter: is this your exquisiteness The disordered argument of the Replier. in Logic? First your antecedent is untrue, and builded upon the false allegation of the Scripture. For the Pharisees do not say unto him: If thou be neither Christ, nor Elias, nor of the Prophets, but these be the words of the text, If thou be not the Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet, now there is a great difference betwixt these two kind of speeches, if thou be not of the Prophets, and if thou be not the Prophet. For the first signifieth that they should ask him, whether he were any of the Prophets, the other whether he were that prophet whom they looked for to be such a one as Moses was, according to that which is written Deut. 18. vers. 15. for else john would Deut. 18. not have denied himself to have been a Prophet, seeing that Christ saith he was one, Math. 11. Moreover they ask him not of those ordinary functions that were then in Math. 11. the Church, but of such extraordinary people as they looked for to come, as Christ, Elias, or that prophet. Thirdly, they did not recite all the ordinary functions, as Levite and Priest, which were then most ordinary and almost only at that time: so that your reason hath neither form, nor truth in it. Chap. 1. the eight Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 4. Let the whole practice of the church under the law be looked upon, & it shall not be found that any other ecclesiastcal ministery was appointed, than those orders of high priest, and priests and Levites. etc. which were appointed by the law of God, and if there were any raised extraordinarily, the fame had their calling confirmed from heaven, either by signs or miracles, or by plain and clear testimonies of the mouth of God, or by extraordinary exciting and moving of the spirit of God. So that it appeareth that the ministery of the gospel and the functions thereof, aught to be from heaven, and of God, and not invented by the brains of men: from heaven I say and heavenly, because although it be executed by earthly men, and the ministers also are choose by men like unto themselves: yet because it is done by the word and institution of god, that hath not only ordained, that the word should be preached, but hath ordained also in what order and by whom it should be preached, it may be well accounted to come from heaven and from god. Io. Whitgifte. Neither is there any new ministery or order appointed in this church, because The Archbishop no new ministery. there be Archbishops. For Archbishops be ministers of the word and Sacraments, and Quoad ministerium do not differ from other pastors (in respect of whom they are called Archbishops) but touching order & government, as you may read afterward in the answer to the admonition. So that all this which is here spoken is grounded upon a false principle. For you would make the reader believe, that to institute an Archbishop, is to institute a new ministery, wherein you are marvelously overshot. The jews had government in their church, and superiority in the ecclesiastical estate, and so have we. But you may not tie the church of Christ to the pattern of the jews synagogue, for that were to make it servile. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 5. Seeing therefore that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon, are not in the word W ache proofs must needs infer a weak conclusion. of god, it followeth that they are of the earth, and so can do no good but much harm in the church, And if any man will say that we do the Church great injury, because we do tie her to a certain number of orders of ministers, as it were to a stake, so that we may not devise new functions: I say that both the church and Christ doth accuse him again: Christ esteemeth himself to have injury, because that by this means he is imagined not to have been careful and provident enough for his church, in that he hath left the ministery, wherein doth consist the life of the church (being that whereby it is begotten) so rawly and unperfect, that by permitting it to the ordering of men, there is a great danger of error, which he might have set without all danger, by a word or two speaking. Io. Whitgifte. Your proofs hitherto alleged are most insufficient to iustiste this conclusion, and yet do you boldly go on as though all were sure. This is but beldenesse and confidency, it is not sound and pithy dealing. I still deny that there is any other ministery in the Church, because there are Archebishops, than is by the word of God confirmed: But you have not yet proved by either Scripture or reason, that there ought not to be governors or superiors among the ministers of the Gospel, to whom any other names may be given, than is expressed in the word, which you aught to prove, else you do but dally, and study with vain words to enlarge your book. It is manifest that Christ hath left the government of his Church, touching the external policy in sundry points to the ordering of men, who have to make orders and laws for the same, as time, place, and person requireth, so that nothing be done contrary to his word, as it is before proved, Tract. 2. and shall be more hereafter. Chap. 1. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 6. The Church of the other side riseth against him, for that he maketh Christ less careful for her, than he was for that under the law. For 〈◊〉 me in the whole volume of the testament, is there any kind or degree of ministery, whereof God is not the certain and express author? Was there ever any man (I except jeroboam and such profane men) either so holy or so wise, or of such great knowledge that ever did so much as dream of instituting of a new ministery? After the long wandering of the ark in the wilderness, when it came to be placed in jerusalem, tell me if any besides the Levites and priests, the ordinary ministers, and the prophets which were unmediatly stirred up of God, were found to have ordained any office or title which was not commanded or whether there was at any time any thing added or enjoined to those offices of priesthobe, and Leviteship, which was not by the law prescribed. Io. Whitgifte. Surely here is nothing but vain repetitions of that false principle, whereupon this tantalogie and multiplication of words is builded, that is, that the institution of T. C, faulteth still in the petition of the principle. an Archbishop is the institution of a new ministery, as though the apostle S. Paul when he placed Timothy at Ephesus & Titus at Creta, did institute a new ministery, because he gave them authority & jurisdiction over the rest, as it is afterward proved: or the Church when it did appoint one among the Bishops to govern the rest in Scismatis remedium, to remedy schisms, as Hierom saith, & as it shall more at large hereafter be declared. Neither can it therefore be said, that Christ doth show himself less Christ is not less careful for this church than for that under the law. careful for his church, than he did for that under the law: For his carefulness appeareth and consists in this that he hath now much more plainly set down the doctrine of salvation in all points, than it was in the law, and hath also ordained that there should be not only fit ministers to publish that doctrine, but offices also to govern the people in godliness. As for names and titles & other external things variable according to divers circumstances, he hath left them to the liberty of his Church, as I have before declared: which is one part of his singular goodness towards the Church, in that it is not so servilely tied to external things, and to the letter as it was under the law. And it is evident, that under the law, there were offices & titles in the church, which Titles & offices in the church under the law where God is not the chief author. are not commanded in the scripture, nor whereof we read God to have been the express author. As Archisynagogus, Mar. 5. Scribae, or legis doctores, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or magistratus seu duces templi. Luc. 22. vers. 52. and those seniores populi, and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereupon you ground your signiory. For M. Calvin upon the. 18. of Math. saith, that this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was appointed after the children of Israel returned from the captivity of Babylon. Chap. 1. the eleventh Division. T C. Page. 63. Sect. 1 All men know that the Ark of Noah was a figure of the church. Noah was both a wise and a godly man: yet what doth the Lord leave to his wisdom, when as he appointeth the matter, the form, the length, the breadth, the height, the wood, the kind and sort of wood? Io. Whitgifte. All men know how uncertain a reason it is that is grounded upon figures and Uncertain reaso ing of figures and allegories. 〈◊〉 le t to 〈◊〉 no dead. Gen. 8. types, except the application thereof may be found in the Scriptures. For a man may apply them as it pleaseth him, even as he may do allegories, and yet was there many things required to the Ark whereof there is no express mention made, and namely nails or pings to join it together, neither is it expressed whether the window was of glass or of crystal, or of neither. Moreover he is not prescribed to make a cover for it, and yet it had one as is declared cap. 8. The overseers and masters of the work likewise are not there appointed, but left to the discretion of Noah. There are many other things required to the making of such an Ark, whereof there is no express mention in that place. To conclude, Noah being in the Ark, did things which the Scripture doth not express that he was commanded to do, as when he sent out the Raven and the Dove. etc. cap. 8. Wherefore I say with M. Calvin. in. 6. genes. Calvin: Arcam fuisse Ecclesiae imaginem certum est, teste Petro, verùm singulas eius parteis ad ecclesiam aptare minime consentaneum est. It is certain that the Ark was a figure of the church by the testimony of Peter, but it is not meet to apply every part thereof unto the Church. Chap. 1. the twelfth Division. T. C. Page. 63. Sect. 4. In the tabernacle the Church is yet more expressly showed forth. Moses that was the overseer of the work was a wise and godly man, the artificers that wrought it Bezalaell and Aholiab, most cunning workmen, and yet observe how the Lord▪ leaveth nothing to their will: but telleth not only of the boards, of the courtanes, of the apparel, but also of the bars, of the rings, of the strings of the books, of the beesoms, of the snuffers, and of the things, the matter, and the form . Io. Whitgifte. It is well known that the Israelites had long continued among the Egyptians, a Why God appointed so many ceremonies to the Israelites. most superstitious kind of people, without any law of God written, and therefore now being delivered from them, and yet inclined to their Idolatry, God (as most writers think) of his infinite wisdom did so charge them with ceremonies of his own institution, that they should neither have leisure to use any other, nor yet desire the Egiptiacall kind of worshipping. Touching the tabernacle and the particular description of things pertaining to the Pelican. same, I say with Pelican These things are particularly described according to the word of the Lord, that the people might know that they aught not so much to obey Moses' precepts as the will of God, in building the Tabernacle, and in freely offering to the same their gold, their silver, their brass, their purple. etc. the which otherwise they would have abused to their own vanities: and that also they might not be without that beauty in ceremonies and worshipping of God, which they see among the Gentiles. Moreover that they might have matter to occupy them with, lest they should fall to slothfulness and idleness. So that of this place it may be well gathered, that nothing wherein the worship of God doth consist, is to be used without his prescription, but how you can aptly apply this figure to the external government, and policy of the Church, I cannot well understand: and if you may so use it, yet do you but allegory, which is no good kind of proof because allegories may be applied according to every particular man's invention. But all that can be truly gathered of this figure is (as I have said before) that, Calui e. 35. Exo. in. expos 2. precept . no kind of worship may be brought into the Church of God, which is not grounded upon his word, and therefore Ma. Caluine speaking of this tabernacle saith that God gave precepts of the tabernacle and things pertaining to it. Ne externa pietatis exercitia, quae vidimus fuisse admodùm necessaria, populum deficerent, Lest the people should want the outward exercises of godliness, which we see to have been very necessary. And again he saith, that when Moses in the mountain did see the example of the Tabernacle, he was then instructed De vero Dei cultu & mysterijs. of the true worship of God and of heavenly mysteries. And again speaking of this Tabernacle he saith: Lex judaeos ad spiritualem solum Dei cultum instituit, sed ceremonijs vestitum, ut ferebat temporis ratio. The law did institute the jews only to the spiritual worship of God, but yet covered with ceremonies, as the time required. Therefore in this figure there was only expressed what should be done in the worshipping of God, and not in the external policy and government of the Church. Chap. 1. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 3 Let us come to the temple, which as it was more near the time of christ: so it doth more lively express the Chur he of God which now is. Solomon the wise t man that ever was, or shall be, doth nothing in it, neither for the temple, nor for the vessels of the temple, nor or the beauty of it, but according to the form that was enjoined him, as appeareth in the first of the kings, and the second of the Chronicles. And in the restoring of that temple, zechiell is witness e, how the angel l by the commandment of God doth part by part, appoint all to b done both in the temple and in the furniture thereof. Io. Whitgifte. These two examples of the Tabernacle, and of the temple, tend to one end, and might more aptly have been alleged in the title of Ceremonies than of the government of the Church, because whatsoever is here spoken of ither of them pertaineth to Ceremonies, and to the worshipping of God, and not to external policy and government of the church, and therefore most unaptely alleged against Archebishops. The Replier 〈◊〉 by his own words. Pag. 22. sect. 1. etc. But what need I labour much in this matter, when you yourself in the. 22. pag. of your book, offer for one thing that I shall bring left to the order of this Church, to show me, that the Israelites had twenty that were undecided by the express word. And it is certain that both David and Solomon appointed orders, the one about the Tabernacle, the other about the Temple, which we read not in Scripture they were commanded to do. And David appointed degrees of officers in the Temple, and Solomon workmen and overseers, whereof we do not read, that they had any special commandment. 1. Par. 24. Chap. 5. the seventh Division. T. C. Page. 63. Sect. 4. Now if the holy Ghost in figures and tropes doth so carefully, (and as a man may speak) uriously comprehend all things, in the truth itself, how much more is it to be thought that he hath performed this? If in the shadows, how much more in the body? If he have done this in earthly things, and which shall perish, how is it to be thought, that he hath 〈◊〉 performed it in heavenly, and those which abide for ever? And then tell me, what are those times of which it was said, the Mel▪ sias when he cometh will tell us all? Is it a like thing that he which did not only appoint the temple and the tabernacle, but the ornaments of them, would not only neglect the ornaments of the church, but also that without the which (as we are born in hand) it cannot long stand? Shall we think that he which remembered the bars there, hath forgotten the pillars here? or he that there remembered the pings, did here forget the master builders? how he should there remember the besoms, and here forget Archbishops, if any had been needful? that he should there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights, and here pass by the lights themselves? And to conclude, that he should make mention there of the moats, and here say nothing of the beams? there reckon up the gnats, here keep silence of the camel es? What is this else but that which Aristotle saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, to look to small things, and not to look to great, which if it can not fall into the Lord, l t it be a shame to say, that the chief pillar and upholder of the Church is not expressed in the scripture, nor can not be concluded of it. Io Whitgifte. You have before confessed Pag. 15. that certain things are left to the order of the Church, T. C. reth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because they are of that nature which are varied by times, places, people & other circumstances. 〈◊〉. which is sufficient to answer whatsoever you have here spoken of the care ulnesse of the holy ghost in the truth itself, above figures and tropes. Although there is no doubt but the holy ghost was as careful in the one as in the other, and loved the one people as well as the other, and therefore it may be an argument à paribus, but not minori, as you seem to make it. I have told you before also why god did more particularly prescribe every ceremony to the Israelites in the law, than he hath done to his lordship ople in the Gospel. God hath in his Gospel performed and fulfilled all the tropes and sig res of the law job . 2 . whatsoever. Christ which is the Messiah hath told us all things that are necessary to salvation, john. 20. and so is that place in the. 4. of john to be understanded. We make not an Archbishop necessary to salvation, but profitable for the government of the Church, and therefore consonant to the word of God, as shall be declared. We know the Church of Christ is not builded upon any man, either as upon foundation, or pillars, if we speak properly, but upon Christ himself, and his word, which remain unmovable: we know also, that the same Church may stand wit out the external help of man But yet hath God appointed functions in his Church, both ecclesiastical, and civil, as means to keep it in external peace, di cipline, and or oer: and though he hath not expressed the names, yet hath he allowed the 〈◊〉. Among men the chief pillar that upholdeth the Church is the Christian prince and magistrate, and yet where have you in the Gospel any such express mention made thereof, as there is in the appointing of the tabernacle of Beesoms, snuffers. etc. which e amples you use in derision: such is your modesty and reverence. We know that all things nec ssary to salvation are much more plainly expressed in the Gospel, than in the law: We are also well assured that Christ in his word hath fully and plainly comprehended all things requisite to faith and good life: but yet hath he committed certain orders of ceremonies, and kind of government, to the disposition of his Church, the general rules given in his word being observed, and nothing being done contrary to his will and commandment therein contained, as have proved before. Chap. 1. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 5. Moreover (a) A 〈◊〉 ma or. these ministries without the which the Church is fully builded, and brought to perfection and complete unity, are (b) An untr minor. not to be retained in the Church: but without the ministries of Archbishop. etc. the Church may be fully but lded and brought to perfection, therefore these ministries are not to be retained. Io. Whitgifte. Your minor is untrue. For the Church in a kingdom where it hath an external government, where it includeth both good and bad, where it is molested with contentious people, with schisms, heresies etc. cannot enjoy complete unity, nor be perfectly The mayor tendeth to th' shu ing out of the 〈◊〉 magistrate. The Church must not only be brought to perfection, but also be preserved therem. governed touching the external form and government, without such offices and governors. Your mayor also containeth dangerous doctrine, including as well the christian magistrate as the Archbishop. And it is in effect all one with this argument: The Church is fully builded and brought to perfection and complete unit e without the Christian magistrate: Therefore Christian magistrates are not to be retained, which is the very argument of the Anabaptists against Christian magistrates. You must therefore understa d, that the Church must as well be preserved and kept in perfection, peace and unity, as builded and brought thereunto, and that such offices and functious are lawful as tend to that end, and be therefore by lawful authority appointed, howsoever some weyward people think the contrary. Chap. 1. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 6. And that without these ministries the Church may be complete, it appeareth by that which is in the fourth to the Ephesians, where it is said that Christ gave some Apostles, some Evangelists, some Pastors and Doctors, to the restoring of the saints unto the work of the ministery, until we all come to the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, and unto a perfect man. Io. Whitgifte. In that place to the Ephesians there is no mention made of Deacons and widows, The place in the. 4. Ephe. discussed. nor of your elders, and therefore it maketh as much against them as it doth against archbishops. Moreover it hath Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets, all which you seclude from the state of this Church. Thirdly it containeth those ministries only which are occupied in the word and administration of the sacraments, not those which pertain to order and discipline as you afterward yourself confess, and therefore I understand not how that place can help you any thing at all. Chap. 1. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. ult. The learned writers have thus reasoned against the Pope: that forasmuch as Apostles, Prophets. etc. are sufficient for the building of the Church, therefore there aught to be no Pope. The argument and necessity of the conclusion is as strong against the Archbishop and all one. For by the same reason that the Pope is cast away as a superfluous thing, for that these offices are able to make perfect the Church, is the Archbishop likewise thrown out of the Church, as a knob or some lump of flesh, which being no member of the body doth both burden it and disfigure it. And as they say that God gave no Pope to his Church, therefore the Pope can do no good: so we may well say God gave no Archbishop to his Church, therefore the Archbishop can do no good. Io. Whitgifte. If there were no stronger places than this against the Pope of Rome his usurped authority, it might stand still, for any thing that I know: because this place speaketh only of the offices occupied in preaching the word and administrating the sacraments, as I have said, not of any office of government. Neither is it a perfect pattern because it hath omitted those offices before mentioned. I have told you before that a negative argument from the scripture (except it be in matters of salvation) is but weak. Likewise that an Archbishop is no new ministry, but may well be contained in the number of those, of whom the Apostle there speaketh. For the name of a Pastor doth comprehend both Archbishops and Bishops. The name doth but signify an office of government convenient for the state of the Church in the external policy of it. And if it did prevail against the Pope, yet doth it not so against the The great difference betwixt the Pope and the Archbishop. Archbishop. For the Pope doth challenge his authority by succession from Peter, so doth not the Archbishop. The Pope saith that he is the head of the universal Church of Christ, so doth not the Archbishop. The Pope says that to be subject to him is necessary to salvation, the Archbishop thinketh no such matter. The Pope challengeth power to remit and retain sins, to dispense with the word of God, to make new articles of faith. etc. so doth not the Archbishop. To be short the Pope claimeth authority over kings and princes, and saith that they have authority from him: but the archbishops (if you speak of ours) acknowledge themselves to be subjects to their Prince, and to have that authority and jurisdiction from her, which they practise over and above that that other bishops do, and therefore▪ on must needs be reproved here, either of great lack of discretion, or else of gross ignorance, or purposed malice. You might say that God gave no magistrate in that place to his Church, Ergo, the magistrate can do no good. Surely I think that if you should well consider how near your arguments approach to the Anabaptists, you would either more circumspectly use them, or else quite cast them away. Chap. 1. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. 1 Neither did God give any Archdeacon to his Church therefore he cannot profit the Church. But it will be said that this argument followeth not, because no mention is made here of the deacon or of the elder, which notwithstanding are both necessary in the Church, and therefore that there are functions profitable in the Church whereof no mention is made here. But how (*) It is easily known and as easily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of you, as appeareth of wards. easily do all men know that the Apostle speaketh of those functions here only, which are conversant in the word, and have to do with the preaching thereof: and therefore made hereno mention of the Deacon or elder. It is said again that in the epistle to the Corinthians, S. Paul speaketh only 1. Cor. 12. of Apostles, Prophets and Doctors, leaving out Evangelists and Pastors and yet Evangelists and Pastors necessary: and so although archbishops are not spoken oh in the place to the Ephesians, yet they may not be therefore shut out as unnecessary. But they that say so, should have considered that the diversity of the matter which the Apostle handleth in these two places, bread a diverse kind of speech. For in the epistle to the Corinthians, going about to condemn the ambition of men, which will thrust themselves into other men's callings, and take upon them to do all themselves, and to be as it were eye, and ear, and hand and all: S. Paul proveth that the Church is a body wherein there are many members, and the same diverse one from another, and that it is not one member only. And to prove that, it was sufficient to say that he placed some Apostles, some Prophets, some Doctors, without rehearsing all the kinds of functions. But in the Epistle to the Ephesians, meaning to show the liberality of our saviour Christ in giving those which should be able by doctrine and teaching to make perfect and absolute his Church, it was necessary that he should reckon up all those functions whereby that work is done. Io. Whitgifte. You have in this place yourself answered your former reasons touching the T. C. hath answered himself touching the place Ephe. 4. place to the Ephesians. For I have told you that the names of archbishops and Archdeacon be names of jurisdiction and government, not of any new ministery and therefore such bishops and ministers, as be so called to have those names, not in the respect of the ministery of the word, but of order and policy. The objection made of the place of the. 1. to the Corinth. Cap. 12. is of more weight than you can be able to remove with all the might you have. For the Apostle there as well declareth the diversity of offices in the Church, as he doth in that Epistle to the Ephesians: yea and more perfectly to, as the place itself and the very order that the Apostle keepeth doth declare. your distinction is but in vain invented for a shift only, against both reason and authority: against reason because the Apostle having before made a perfect division of gifts in the Church, it is not like but now speaking of offices he doth the same. Moreover he doth rehearse them in order saying, first Apostles, than Prophets, thirdly Doctors. etc. Lastly he reciteth here more offices than he doth there, for here he reciteth eight and there only five at the most. Authority both of learned writers, and of the manifest words of the Apostle himself is against it. Peter Martyr says that in this place Recenset singulatim quas parteis habeat boc corpus he P. Martyr 〈◊〉 12. 1. Cor rehearseth particularly what parts this body hath, meaning the Church. And the Apostle himself reciting the diverse parts of the body and functions of the same to declare the diverse functions that be in the Church, doth no doubt make as perfect a division here as he doth in any other place, so that this shift cannot serve your turn, and if it did, yet have you proved nothing by it, for you yourself have given the salution saying That in the place to the Ephesians he only speaketh of such functions as are conversant in the word, which is true. Chap. 1. the. 19 Division. T. C. Page. 64. Sect. 2. But how cometh it to pass that S. Paul neither in the one place, neither in the other nor else where maketh mention of the Archbishop, which is said to be the chiefest pillar and undersetter of the Church? Now I hear what is said to this, that under the Pastor is contained bishop, he is not contained but is the same that bishop. How then? Forsooth say they an Archbishop is bishop? well then of bishops some are archbishops some are what? Here I see that they (*) You imagine that they are hanged and therefore help before you be desired sired. are hanged in the bush, but I will help them, of by shops some are archbishops, some are by the common name bishops. For if they answer not thus, what have they to say? But what an absurd thing were that to say that S. Paul comprehended an Archbishop under a Pastor or bishop, which neither was at that time nor certain hundred years after? this were not to deinde but to prophecy. And how is it that they never marked that S. Paul speaketh of those functions which were in the Church, and not of those which should be afterward? and of those that God had given, and not of those which he would give▪ For the words are and he hath given. Io. Whitgifte. No man can deny, but a bishop may aptly be comprehended under this name Pastor, and Archbishop under the name of a Bishop: and it may as well be said that of bishops some be called archbishops, and some by the name of bishops, as it may be said of kings some be called Emperors, some by the common name of kings: of Dukes, some Archdukes some by the common name of Dukes: of justices, some chief justices, some by the common name of justices. What if the name of an Archbishop were not in S. Paul's time? Doth it therefore Things may be lawful which were not in Paul's time. follow that the thing signified by the name was not in his time? This word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was not in S. Paul's time, but afterward invented in the council of Nice. Yet was the thing thereby signified in S. Paul's time, and from the beginning. Other names there be also which were invented since the Apostles time, and yet both lawfully and necessarily used. The authority and thing whereof the Archbishop hath his name, was in Paul's time and therefore the name lawful: and if it hád not been in S. Paul's time, yet were both the name and the office lawful because it pertaineth to the external policy and regiment of the Church, which is variable according to the place, time, person, and other circumstances. Shall not the authority that Christian Princes have in matters ecclesiastical be thought lawful, because there were no such Princes in S. Paul's time? Doctor shall not they have the chief authority in ruling and governing the Church in exteruall policy and regiment because there is no such express mention of them in those two places of S. Paul? But you shall answer yourself, for you say that in those places S. Paul speaketh of such functions as were then in the church, not of such as should be afterward, which is true. And therefore I conclude that as all those offices (by your own confession before) are not necessary for all times in the Church: so are they not only, for all times of the Church, but other may be brought in meet for the government of the same. I know your meaning is nothing less, yet this is my collection which I think you will very hardly answer. How many hundred years the name of Archbishop was after the Apostles time, shall appear in another place. Chap. 1. the. 20. Division. T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. 3 Moreover, if so be under the Pastor the Apostle comprehended an Archbishop, then the Archbishop is necessary, and such as the Church cannot be without, and commanded of God, & therefore not taken up by the policy of the Church for the tune, country, and other circumstances, and such also as cannot be put down at the will of the Church, which is contrary to the judgement of those which are the Archbyshops' patrons. Io. Whitgifte. Your argument if it be thus framed, Pastors are necessary at all times in all estates of the Church, and in all places, and cannot be put down at the will of the Church: archbishops are Pastors, therefore they be necessary at all times. 〈◊〉. I deny your argument, because the mayor in the first figure cannot be particular. If you make your mayor universal, than I do deny it, and put you to the proof. If you say that to preach the word and to administer the sacraments (which is, the office of a Pastor) is necessary at all times: then I confess it to be true, and distinguish the minor on this sort: that an Archbishop in respect of the ministry of the word and sacraments, is at all times necessary, not in the respect of policy and government, in consideration whereof he hath the name of an Archbishop. Chap. 1. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. 3. 4. 5. The last (*) You 〈◊〉 that against yourself now▪ which before you were glad to use as a 〈◊〉 for yourself. refuge is, that the Apostle made mention of those functions which have to do with the ministering of the word and sacraments, and not of those which have to do with order and discipline. Speak in good earnest, had the Apostles (a) Here he confuteth his own shadow. nothing to do with discipline and order? with what face can you take away the rains of government out of the Apostles hands, and put them in the Archby shops and Archdeacon's hands? what a perverseness is this that the ministries invented by men should be preferred to all the ministries appointed and commanded of God. The Apostles for sooth have in common with the archbishops and Archdeacon's the power of ministering of the word and of the Sacraments, of binding and losing, and thus far as good as the archbishops and Archdeacon's. But for discipline and order the Apostles have nothing to do, but herein archbishops and Archdeacon's are above them and better than they. Io. Whitgifte. You wonderfully forget yourself, for it is your own distinction as it appeareth Page. 64. li. 5. in the. 5. line of the same page of your book: and thereby you shifted off the objection of Deacons and Elders. I know no man that taketh the rains of government out of the Apostles hands and giveth it to any to whom it is not due by the word of God. But is your meaning that the Apostles should now execute it themselves? else Quorsum bae Surely you are so full of passions that you forget the matter. I know the Apostles had in their time together with the ministery of the word and sacraments, power to exercise ecclesiastical discipline and order: But truly I understand not your meaning, for never any such thing as you here fancy entered once into my cogitation. I rather say that because in the Apostles there was joined the administration of discipline with the ministery of the word and sacraments, therefore it may be so likewise now in archbishops and Bishops. For that authority of discipline and government that the Apostles had in their time, is now for the most part executed by archbishops and Bishops, which is the overthrow of your whole assertion. Chap. 1. the. 22. Division. T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. ult. Now sir if I would follow your vain of making so many exclamations, as o the impudency, o the insolency with twenty other such great ohes, you see (*) Indeed 〈◊〉 have made yourself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sion. I have occasion both here and else where. But I would not gladly declaim, especially when I should dispute, nor make outcries in stead of reasons. Io. Whitgifte. Where have I used these exclamations? or what cause have you so suddenly to burst into them at this time? except it be to set some countenance upon your evil favoured reasons. But I will let you alone in such toys, and suffer you to play with yourself. Chap. 1. the. 23. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 1 But to come to this distinction, I had thought before this time, that the Apostles had been the (*) Surely the man is in a dream. chief builders in setting up the Church, now I perceive you make the archbishops and Archdeacon's the chief builders, and the Apostles under carpenters or common masons, to serve and to 1. Cor. 3. take the commandment of the Archbishop and Archdeacon. And whereas it is said that the ministries which S. Paul speaketh of are in the words and sacraments, binding and losing only, and that there be other which are besides these (occupied in the order and discipline of the Church) (of which number are archbishops and Archdeacon's) let us mark a little what deep divinity here is. Io. Whitgifte. Surely you wander you know not whether, without doubt your mind, when you writ this, was upon some other thing than upon my book. For where have I made this comparison betwixt the Apostles and archbishops? or what have I spoken sounding that way? I would have you to deal honestly and plainly. If you mean the book in latin, whereof you after ward speak, the words of that book sounding any thing this way be these. Archiepisiopi ab èpiscopis quoad ministerium non differunt (omnes enim paripotestate docendi, baptizandi, ligandi & soluendi praediti sunt:) sed quoad ordinem et politiam: ordinis enim & politiae causa quaedam ultra episcopos Archiepiscopis cencessa sunt. archbishops differ not from bishops in respect of the ministery (for they are all endued with equal authority to teach, to baptize, to bind and loose) but in respect of order and policy. For some things are granted to archbishops for order and policy's sake above the bishops. And further answering that place to the Ephesians it says: Apostolus eo in loco eos tantiòn ministr ss & ministeria enumerat quae in precibus, verbo, & administratione sacramentorum versantur, non eorum quae ad ordinem & disciplinam instituuntur, qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum & Archidiaconorum The Apostle in that place doth only recite those ministers and ministries, which are occupied in prayer, the word and the administration of the Sacraments, not of them which are instituted for order and discipline, such as are the functions of archbishops and Archdeacon's. The which self-same distinction for that place you use Pag. 64. lin. 5. in the beginning of the 64. Page of your bóoke, these only words excepted (qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum & Archidiaconorum) as I have before showed and your own words declare. And I am sure these words do not make the archbishops and Archdeacon's chief builders and the Apostles under carpenters as it pleaseth you to collect, but this is your modesty. Chap. 1. the. 23. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 2. And first of all I would gladly ask them with what advise they havelaide on a greater (*) What burden? who hath laid it on. burden and weight of the archbishops and Archdeacon's shoulders, than the Apostles were able to sustain. Io. Whitgifte. When you have told where they have laid on this greater burden and weight, or what the burden and weight is that you say they have laid on, or who they be that have laid it on, then shall your question be answered, in the mean time let this suffice the reader, that you do but forge matter to increase your volumes, and to sport yourself. Chap. 1. the. 24. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3 Secondarily I ask with what boldness and upon the confidence of what gifts, any man dare take upon him both that which the Apostles did, and more to? Io. Whitgifte. To this I answer as to the former. Chap. 1. the. 25. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3 Then I say that it is too too unskilfully done, to separate order and discipline from then that have the ministery of the word in hand, as though the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacon's▪ were aconfused heap and a disordered lump, when as S. Paul teacheth it to be without them, a body consisting of all his parts and members, comely knit and joined together, wherein nothing wanteth, nor nothing is to much. Io. Whitgifte. Order and discipline are not separated from the ministry of the word, although all such Authority to execute discipline, is not equally given to all. as be ministers of the word have not the like authority to execute them. For as it is said in that Latin book, for order and policy's sake more is granted to the Archbishop than to the Bishop, neither will any learned man so greatly marvel at this, seeing the practice thereof was in the Apostles time. For Paul had more large and ample authority than Timothy, and Timothy than the resse of the ministers of Ephesus. What if the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacon's were perfect in S. Paul's time, and may be perfect at other times, doth it therefore follow that the Church in no time or stare may have them, or rather that they be not necessary at some time for the Church? In S. Paul's time Apostles, Prophets, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, diversity of tongues were counted necessary, and principal parts of this body, which not with standing you confess now to be cut of, and yet the body perfect: So that you see this is no reason at all, to say that the Church in S. Paul's time was a perfect body without archbishops and Archdeacon's: Ergo, they are not necessary in the Church of Christ. For I might as well reason thus: The Church of Christ in S. Paul's time was not perfect without Apostles, Prophets, doers of miracles, gifts of healing, diversity of tongues, therefore it is not now perfect being without them. And likewise it was then perfect without Christian magistrates, The unskilful reasoning of T. C. openeth a bore to Anabaptisme. Ergo, Christian magistrates are to be removed from the Church. This kind of reasoning, as it is unskilful, because it doth not distinguish the times of the Church, neither considereth necessary circumstances, so it is most perilous and openeth a door to Anabaptisme and confusion. Moreover I told you before, that although this name Archbishop is not expressed The office of the Archbishop expressed in scripture. in the Scripture yet is the office and function, as it is evidently to be seen in the examples of Timothy, and Titus, yea and in the Apostles themselves, whose office of planting Churches through the whole world is ceased, but their care for the good government of those Churches which were planted, and their authority over those Pastors whom they placed, doth and must remain in such places where there are Churches. And therefore M. Bucer writing upon the fourth to the Ephesians saith Bucer in . Eph. thus: Miletum Presbiteros Ecclesiae Ephesinae convocat: tamen quia unus inter eos praeerat alijs & primam Ecclesiaecuram habebat, in eo propriè residebat nomen Episcopi. In the Acts Paul calleth the same men Bishops and Elders, when as he called together the ministers of the Church of Ephesus unto Miletum: yet because one amongst them did rule over the rest and had the chief care of the Church, the name of Bishop did properly remain in him So that this superiority and jurisdiction which we speak of, was even in the Apostles time, as it is more at large afterward proved. Chap. 1. the. 26. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3 Doth it not pertain to order that the Apostle saith that God hath set first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly teachers? are not these words, First, Second, Third, differences of order? if this be not order, surely I know not what order is. And yet neither Archbishop nor Archdeacon author of this, and it was kept also before they were hatched. Io. Whitgifte. Yes, but will you have the same order now? then must you have Apostles, and Prophets, which you deny, so that this order you see is not perpetual, wherefore from time to time that order among the ministers of the word must be observed, That order multe be observed which is convenient for the state. that is most convenient for the state of the Church. Neither is any against such order, but those that will not live in order. Did ever any man deny but that there was order in the Apostles time? All this is but to make the reader believe that some such thing is in that Latin book, when there is not one word whereof any such thing can be gathered: is this your simplicity? Chap. 1. the. 27. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 4. Let us see of discipline and government, which we may see to be committed to those which have the preaching of the word and to others also which did not preach the word, when S. Paul 1. Tim. 5. saith, that the elders which govern well are worthy double honour especially those which travel in the word: where he appointeth the government to the ministers of the word, & to those also that were not ministers of the word. And thereupon it followeth that the ministers of the Church are not severed one from an other, as you, because some have the ministration of the word and Sacraments only, and some with the administration of the Sacraments and word, have also the government and discipline in their hands: but clean contrariwise S. Paul distinguisheth them, and showeth that all the ministers in the Church have the government, but all have not the word to handle, so that he distinguisheth the ministry into that which is occupied in the word and government, and into that which is occupied in the government only. But in this distinction you do not only forget S. Paul, but you forget yourself. For if S. Paul speak in that place of those that meddle with the ministering of the word and sacraments (*) You falsify my words, by displacing the word (only). only: why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paul speaketh of (being the same that pastor is) why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the Church, seeing that belongeth not to him by your distinction? why doth also the Archbishop (whom you say is a bishop), meddle with it? And thus you see you need no other adversary than yourself to confute you. Io. Whitgifte. The reader should better have understood what you had go about, if you had set before his eyes the words that you confute. Now I scarce understand your meaning myself. You shoot altogether without a mark. I know no man that denieth discipline and government to be committed to those that have the preaching of the word, and to others also which preach not the word. But if you mean that either all kind of ecclesiastical discipline and government, is committed to all such as preach the word, or in as ample manner to one as to another, you have not yet proved it, neither will you be able to prove it with all the learning that you think yourself to have. That in 1. Tim. 5. doth prove no such matter, as you pretend. For what doth What it is to rule well. S. Paul mean there, by governing well? Christ & Ecclesiae suae tum doctrina tum integritate vitae fideliter inseruire, non suased quae Dei sunt quaerere: to serve Christ and his Church faithfully both in doctrine and integrity of life, to seek not those things which are his, but those which are Gods. Thus do the learned interpreters expound, bene praeesse, in this place. Is not the office of teaching, exhorting, reproving, an office of ruling and governing? But you say that the Apostle doth make two kind of governors, one that travaileth in the word, the other that doth not. And what then? he that diligently doth that office that is committed unto him, whether it be in preaching the word, providing for the poor, visiting the sick, or any such like function, doth rule well. But doth it therefore follow that all have like authority, or that there is no kind of Ecclesiastical government or discipline, but that which is common to all the ministers of the word? Certain it is, that every Pastor that doth his duty in All ministers govern but not alike. preaching ruleth well, and so do they also that duly and truly administer the Sacraments, relieve the poor, visit the sick, privately admonish, etc. But is there therefore none that hath superiority over them, to procure that those things be done accordingly, to correct them if they be not done, to see that every man be kept in order, be obedient to laws, teach true doctrine, break not unity. & c? This place therefore helpeth you not. For although all ministers of the word rule and govern after a sort, yet do not they all so, in all kind of government, nor equally, for they also must have governors. But consider your reason or at the lest the end of your drift. All ministers of the Whereunto 〈◊〉 dust of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. word govern their parishes by preaching the word, rebuking sin. etc. Ergo, they must have none to govern them, and keep them in order, and see that they do their duty: it is all one with this. Every Master of a family ruleth over his family▪ and therefore he must have no superïour to rule over him: or every chief officer of Cities or Towns be rulers and governors of those places, therefore they must have none to rule and govern either their cities and towns, or themselves. In deed this is a plausible doctrine to make every Pastor chief governor within his own parish, and to make every city and town a kingdom within itself: but it is a pestilent doctrine, for in short time there would be as many Popes as Pastors, as many religions as parishes, as many sects as families, and in the end an overthrow both of religion, the Church, and the kingdom. Neither could there possibly have been invented a more readier way for the Pope to make his entry in hither again. Of your distinction of Presbyter, I will speak in a more fit place. I have not forgot myself, but you neither understand (as it appeareth) my writings, neither yet your own, for hither to you have fought without an adversary. And yet I must put you in mind of your falsehood and subtle dealing: for whereas I say that the Apostle in the. 4. Ephe. speaketh only of those ministers and ministries, which are occupied in prayers, the word and administration of the sacraments. you by displacing the word, only, make your Reader believe, that I affirm the Apostle to speak in that place, of those that meddle with the ministering of the word and Sacraments only, as if I should seclude the ministers of the word from all kind of government. Chap. 1. the. 28. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And lest any man should say I confute my own shadow, I must let him to understand that there is a Pamphlet in Latin, which is called the (*) The book named but 〈◊〉 you have consuted your shadow, and not the book as hath appeared book of the Doctors, which goeth from hand to hand and especially (so far as they could bring to pass) to those only that they thought to favour that opinion, in the which book, all these answers unto the place of the Ephesians are contained, and almost all that which is comprehended in this defence of archbishops and Archdeacon's, with other things also which are found in this book of M. Doctors: and therefore it is very likely that he having no other way to vent his rhapsodies, and racking together, thought he would bring them to light after this sort. But how much better had it been that this misshaped thing had had the mother's womb for the grave, or being brought out had been hidden as the former is, in some bench-hole or dark place, where it should never have seen any light, nor no man's eye should ever have looked of it? Io. Whitgifte. It had been much for your credit if you had set down the words of that book the which you and your fautors in derision call the book of Doctors. Which you have only named and not confuted. The book dare abide the light, and the Author also, but so dare not you. To the rest of your words my answer is only this, that you bewray your spirit: for further proof hereof I refer the reader to the third Chapter of S. james, from the tenth verse to the end. Chap. 1. the. 29. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And thus all these clouds being scattered by the sun of the truth, you see that the place to the Ephesians standeth strong against the Archbishop and archdeacon. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing less: but the contrary for any thing that you have spoken yet. Chap. 1. the. 30. Division. T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. & Page 66. Sect. 1 Now I will reason also after this sort out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthians joined together. There is no function but hath gifts fit and apt to discharge it, annexed and given unto it: whereupon the Apostle by a metonomy, doth call the Apostles, Prophets, etc. gifts, because they have always gifts joined with them. This being granted (as no man can deny it) I reason thus. (a) Syllogism without all form. Those functions only are sufficient for the church, which have all the gifts needful, either for the ministering of the word and sacraments, or for the government of the church: but all these functions reckoned of S. Paul to the Ephesians, with those which S. Paul calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (which are the Deacons and elders) have the gifts needful either for the government of the church, either else for the ministering of the word and sacraments: therefore these functions only are sufficient for the church. For it is a superfluous thing to make more offices than there be gifts to furnish them, for so they that should have them, should rather be Idols than officers. And therefore for as much as there is no gift which falls not into some of these nnctions, it is altogether a vain and unprositable thing to bring more offices and functions into the Church besides these. Io. Whitgifte. You say there is no function, but hath gifts apt and fit to discharge it, annexed and given In what sense every function is said to have gifts to discharge it. unto it. If you mean that there is no function but there is gifts meet for it, which God hath in his power to bestow, it is most true: But if your meaning be, that the gifts be so annexed to the function, that of necessity whosoever is called to that function must also have those gifts, it is most untrue. For experience doth teach that every man hath not gifts according to his function, although he be lawfully there unto called, touching his external calling: for the in ward calling none knoweth but God himself, and a man's own conscience. But you put me in remembrance of that which master Bullinger writeth of the Anabaptistes lib. 5. cap. 1. where he (confuting the reason they use to prove that Christians aught not to have magistrates, because Christians be so perfect of themselves that they can govern themselves, and therefore need not to be subject to any other superior authority says thus: Solent autem Anabaptistae libenter ea imaginari & animo suo fingere quae nunquàm Bullinger. lib. 5. adversus anab. cap. 1. fueru t, neque extant, aut posthaec futura sunt. The Anabaptistes willingly use to imagine and conceive those things in their minds which never hath been, nor are, nor hereafter shall be. Even so I say unto you, that in imagining the gifts pertaining to every function so to be 〈◊〉 unto the function, that he which hath the one must of necessity have the other, you fancy that which never was, is, or shall be: and in so reasoning what do you else, than use that argument against superiority in the Ecclesiastical estate, which the Anabaptists use both against Ecclesiastical & Civil magistrates? But I answer you as M. Bullinger answered them: Except you were blinded with pertinacy you might easily see in yourself just cause why there should be magistrates Idem. and Superiors. Moreover God doth not tie his gifts to any certain and definite number of names or titles of offices, but bestoweth them as it pleaseth him, to the commodity of his Church, upon such as be meet to use them, by what name or title soever they be called. Wherefore this assertion of yours is either unadvisedly avouched, or else doth it contain some secret poison not yet uttered. This being said, to the ground that you have laid, thus I answer to your argument: The deformed argument of T. C. it is in no mode, and in deed to bad for any boy to use in his Sophisms. It is in form the same with this: Those things only are sufficient for salvation which are contained in the Scriptures, but all those things in the ave Maria are contained in the Scriptures, therefore those things only which are in the ave Maria are sufficient to salvation. Or this, those only are men which are endued with reason, but all the Cosrardmongers in London are endued with reason, therefore the Costermongers of London only are men. Besides this, the Mayor is particular, which 〈◊〉 against all form of Syllogism in the first or second figure: to be short, in your Mayor you have this word (only) in your Medium and in the Minor is left out. And therefore your conclusion followeth not, except you had said in your Minor, that only these functions reckoned of S. Paul to the Ephesians etc. have all gifts needful for the ministering of the word and sacraments and for the government of the Church: And yet if it were so, your argument should be of no force, being ex solis particularibus. So that in your Syllogism there is no manner of form, and therefore not worthy of any other answer, until it be better framed. Although I could say unto you that all those functions have gifts necessary for them: but not only those functions: because there be other not mentioned of you which have gifts necessary also, and which the Apostle rehearseth. 1. Corinth. 12. So likewise could I answer that most of those functions (according to your own opinion) be not perpetual but for a time, and therefore your reason is no good reason. Likewise that the Apostle hath not made in either of these places any perfect division of offices which were even at that time in the Church. For in the first to the Corinthians the. 12. chap. he leaveth out Evangelists, Pastors, Bishops, Deacons, widows: and in the fourth to the Ephesians: Deacons, widows, workers of miracles, etc. So that he hath not left any perpetual pattern of offices, or names in either of those two places. To conclude I could tell you that God hath left to his Church authority to appoint both names and offices, as shall be for the same most convenient and profitable, the which authority the Church hath also from the beginning used, as in appointing Catechistes, Lectors, and such like, not superfluous but most necessary offices, and profitable for the Church, in those times wherein they were. Chap. 1. the. 31. Division. T. C. Page 66. Sect. 2. And so it may be thus reasoned. If men may make and erect new ministries, they must either give gifts for to discharged them, or assure men that they shall have gifts of God, whereby they may be able to answer them. But they can neither give gifts, nor assure men of any gifts necessary to discharge those functions, therefore they may make or erect no new ministries. Io. Whitgifte. First there is no new ministry erected. But among the ministers some are appointed to govern the rest, and to have the chief direction of them, and such are choose to that superiority, upon whom God (as far as man can judge) hath bestowed gifts meet for the same. Secondly, it is not necessary that those that appoint any office, should be able to give gifts incident there unto. For than no man might appoint any office. It is therefore sufficient if he appoint such People as God hath endued with gifts meet for such an office, and such offices as there may be persons meet to execute: which being observed, your argument is soon answered. Chap. 1. the. 32. Division. T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 3 Last of all to conclude against these made and devised ministries of archbishops and Archbeacons after this sort, (a) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. if men may add ministries, they may also take away: for those both belong to one authority: (b) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. but they can not take away those ministries that God hath placed in his Church, therefore they cannot add to those that are placed in the Church. And this foundation I thought first to lay or ever I entered into M. Doctors not reasons, but authorities, not of God but of men, in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments, against both these offices of Archbishop and Archdeacon. Io. Whitgifte. Your whole book is for the most part builded upon that false founded argument, The Reply grounded upon the petition of the principle. that is called Petitio principij. For this will not be granted unto you, which you have so oftentimes repeated, and whereupon all your arguments are grounded, that to appoint archbishops or Archdeacon's, is to appoint a new ministry. It is (as I told you before) but to keep an order in the ministry and in the Church, and to execute that office of government which the Apostles themselves did. When Jerome said, That for the avoiding of Schisms the ministers appointed one among themselves to govern the rest. Did he mean that they instituted a new ministery? A man may see by this, how unable you are to defend your cause, seeing you are enforced to frame principles unto yourself, against the which you may reason, that the ignorant reader may think your quarrel to be just. But now to your argument. The Mayor is not true, for men may add ministries to those that be, and break not the will and commandment of God, because they may be helps and furtheraunces to those ministries that God hath appointed: But he can not take away such ministries as God hath placed in his Church, to be perpetual, without breach of his will and commandment. Moreover, besides those ministries that God hath appointed in his word as necessary at all times, there may be some added that be convenient for some times, and yet the Church that hath authority to add these, hath not the like authority to take away the other: So that your Mayor lacketh proof. Your Minor also is ambiguous: for man can not take away those ministries that God hath appointed to be perpetual in the Church, but he may take away those that be but temporal, as occasion serveth. If your foundation be no sounder than this that you have hitherto laid, surely your building cannot long stand, and M. Doctor's authorities may well enough encounter with all your reasons. That the names of Metropolitan, Archbishop, etc. be not Antichristian. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 65. Sect. 1 first therefore I prove that the names of Metropolitan and The antiquity of Archbishops. Archbishop etc. be not Antichristian names, that is, names invented by Antichrist, but most ancient: yea that they were in the Church, long before the Gospel was publicly embraced by any Prince or in any kingdom. Polidore Virgil lib. 4. De inventoribus rerum, Cap. 12. says that Clement in his book entitled Compendiarium Christianae religionis, testifieth, that the Apostle Peter did in every Province appoint one Archbishop, whom all other Bishops of the same province should obey. He saith also that the same Archbishop was called Primas, Patriarcha, and Metropolitanus. Peter was not Antichrist, Ergo, the name of an Archbishop is no Antichristian name. T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 4. 5. 6. 7. & Pag. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses, whereof some of them are so bored in the ears and branded in their foreheads, that no man need to fear any credit they shall get before any judge wheresoever, or before whom soever they come, but in the Romish court, and the Papists only excepted. For to let go Polidore Uirgile because whatsoever he saith he saith of the credit of another, let us come to Clement which is the author of this you speak. And what is he? Is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing less than Clement, of whom S. Paul speaketh, and which some think was the first Bishop of Rome ordained by Peter, and Phil. 4. Tertul. de prescript. advers. haeret. not rather a wicked hellhound into whom the Lord had sent Satan to be a lying spirit in his mouth, to deceive them for their unthankful receiving of the gospel? And he must witness for the Archbishop: a worthy witness. For as all that Popish Hierarchy came out of the bottomless pit of hell: so to uphold the Archbishop the neck of it, whereupon the Romish monster standeth, are raised up from hell bastards, Clemens and Anacletus, and indeed as it may appear, the very natural sons of Satan, and the sworn soldiers of Antichrist. A man would have thought that the Bishop of Salisbury, M. jewel had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement, that all good men would have had him in detestation: so far of would they have been to have alleged out of him to prove any thing that is in controversy. The Bishop allegeth both Eusebius, and S. Jerome, to prove that none of those works In the reply to M. Hard. which go in his name are his: and although the proofs be strong which the Bishop useth being the witness of unsuspected witnesses: yet because the law, although it allow two witnesses, notwithstanding doth like the better of three, I will set down here also Ireneus which was a great while before them both, and followed hard after the time of the true and uncounterfeyte Clement, Li. 3. cap. 3. and therefore could best tell of him, and of his writings, and yet he maketh mention but of one Epistle, which upon occasion amongst the Corinthians he written to them. Indeed in an other place of that book he showeth, that it is very probable, that Clementalso either wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrues. Now if that Epistle to the Counthes were extant, we should easily see by comparing those that are now in his name with that, what a misshaped thing this is. And if so be that Ireneus conjecture be good, that Clement was the author or interpreter of the Epstle to the Hebrues, then what horrible injury is done to the holy Ghost, while the same is supposed the writer of this book to the Hebrues, which is the author of such beggary as this Clement brought into the world? And I pray you do you hold that it is the true Christian religion which that book containeth? Can none of these considerations drive you from the testimony of this Clement? It goeth very hard with the Archbishop, when these Clements, and Anacletusses must be brought to underprop him. But what if there be no such book as this is, which you name, (when you say in his book entitled Compendiarium religionis Christianae) it is like you know not him, nor what he says, when you cannot tell so much as his name. Only because Polidore writeth that Clement saith this in a certain short and summary book of christian religion, you have set down that he writeth thus in a book entitled Compendiarium Christianae religionis, where there is no such title neither in the Counsels where his Epistles are, neither yet in all other his works. Thought you to disguise him with this new name of the book, that he should not be known? or meant you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a book which because he should never find, he should never answer? The place which Polidore means is in the first Epistle which he writeth unto james the brother of the Lord, which is as the rest are both ridiculous in the manner of writing, and in the matter oftener times wicked and blasphemous, which I speak to this end, that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath given to this Clement, in taking him as one of his witnesses in so great a matter be not abused. Io. Whitgifte. Here is much more labour spent than is necessary. No man denieth but that the Epistles attributed to Clement are Counterfeit, neither do I otherwise allege him or Anacletus, or any such like, than both M. Caluine, M. jewel, and many other learned men do, as it is evident in their writings. That testimony which I use is out of Polidore, and therefore have I quoted both the book and Chapter. Polidore writeth as other do that entreat of such matters, and for as much as he was learned, and of purpose gave himself to the searching out of such things, his report is not lightly to be rejected. But (God be thanked) neither the name nor the authority of an Arfhbishop dependeth upon these witnesses, neither do I use them as sure grounds, but as probable testimonies of the antiquity of the name. You have cited the Canons of the Apostles thrice at the lest in this your book, and Higinus likewise, and used them as proofs, and yet is there as great suspicion in the counterfeiting of them, as there is of this book of Clements. I pray you therefore give me that liberty in reciting Authors, that you take to yourself, and that no man refuseth when they serve to his purpose. For I protest unto you, that I have as evil an opinion of many of them, and think as great corruption to be in them as any man doth, and that not only because I have so read in other men's writings of them: but also for that I myself in reading of them have noted the same. But I am well assured that Polidore meant that Clement which is supposed to be the first Bishop of Rome, how he was therein deceived (being so learned a man) I leave it to others to judge. It is not like that Polydore meant that Epistle, for he knew what difference there was betwixt an Epistle and a book: neither doth the length or the matter of that Epistle give any occasion that it should so be called: wherefore it is like that Polydore had it out of some book attributed unto Clement under that title, though the same be not extant. For there be diverse works of ancient fathers, which be not now ertant in print, and yet in some places to be had. But I will not stand longer in this matter. The words of Polydore be these. Sicut D. Clemens in suo Christianae religionis compendiario libello perhibet, etc. Chap. 2. the second Division. T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 3 For answer unto him, although he be not worth the answering, I say first it may be well said here of the office of the Archbishop, that the father of it was an Amorite, and mother an Hittite, that is that it cometh of very infamous parentage, the beginning thereof being of the Idolatrous nations. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words of pleasure: it will appear in this discourse that the parents and authors both of the office, and of the name, be such as aught with greater reverence to be spoken of, and with greater signification of duty. Chap. 2. the third Division. T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were his adopted son, thereby to wipe away the shame of his birth, it doth S. Peter shameful injury. For besides that it was far from S. Peter to take this authority to himself, not only of making Archbishops throughout every Province but also instituting a new order or office, without the counsel of the rest of the Apostles, which none else of the Apostles did, and which is contrary to the practice of S. Peter, both in the first and sixt of the Acts, contrary also to the practice of the Apostles which after shall appear. I say besides this, is it like that S. Peter would graff the noblest plant as it is said of the ministery of the Gospel, in such a rotten stock of that which was most abominable in all Idolatry? For the greater they were in the service of the Idols, the more detestable were they before God. Io. Whitgifte. I do not take upon me the defence of Clement's words in that Epistle, or of Polydore in the book and Chapter before recited, in all things that they spoke touching the matter. But I cannot suffer your vain reasons to serve for an answer. For if Saint Peter did thus place archbishops, yet did he not appoint any new order or office, as you have been oftentimes told. Of all Bishops there is one order or One ministery of bishops, but diverse degrees. ministery, but diverse degrees. Between an Archbishop and a Bishop there is only a difference of degree and dignity, not of order or ministery: as diverse learned men give unto Peter, above the rest of the Apostles the pre-eminence of honour for order's sake, but not of power. Moreover Peter in appointing them without the consent of the other Apostles, did no otherwise than the Apostle S. Paul when he placed Timothy at Ephesus, and Titus at Creta. It may be also that in some places where there were before Archiflamines he placed such as were called Archbishops, etc. which might be done in respect of the city & place, and not in respect of the idolatrous priests. For Archiflamines were but in great Cities, which being converted unto Christ, might have in the place of their Archiflamines, Godly and learned Archbishops, to oversee and direct the rest of the Bishops and Preachers, that unity and order might be observed. Thus Paul did at Ephesus and Creta. And why might not Peter do it in other places likewise? Chap. 4. the fourth Division. T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. The Lord when he would give laws of worshipping to his people, in the things that were indifferent, of shaving and cutting, and apparel wearing, saith to his people, that they should not do so, and so, because the Gentiles did so, yea even in those things, the use whereof was otherwise very profitable, and incommodious to forbear, he would have them notwithstanding to abstain from, as from swine's flesh, Coneys. etc. to the end that he might have them severed as appeareth by S. Paul, by a great and high brickwall from other Nations. Eph. 2. And therefore it is very unlike that S. Peter would frame the ministery of the Gospel (which is no ceremony but of the substance of the gospel.) by the example of the heathenish and idolatrous functions. If one had said that the Lord had shapen this common wealth by the pattern of other common wealths, although it had been most untrue (all other flourishing common wealths of Athens, Lacedaemon, and Rome, borrowing their good laws of the Lords common wealth) yet had it been more tolerable: but to say he framed the ministery of the Gospel by the Priesthood of Idolatry, is to fet chastity out of Sodom, and to seek for heaven in hell. And if so be that the Lord had delighted in this Hierarchy, he would rather have taken of his own, than borrowed of others: of his own Church, than of the synagogue of Satan. For under the law besides the Levites there were Priests and above them a high Priest. Io. Whitgifte. God gave unto the Israelites a king, though other Nations had so in like manner. The Israelites had some things like to the Gentiles. And he ordained degrees of Priests among them, to offer unto him Sacrifices though the Gentiles had the like: and what inconvenience could there come by placing archbishops (which should faithfully preach the word of God, and carefully govern the Church of Christ) even in those places where there were Archiflamines, who did deface Christianity, and persecute the Christians? For by these means there could no harm come unto them, as there might have done to the Israelites by using of such things of the Gentiles as he forbade unto them, but the contrary: For this was a means to pluck them from all their superstition and Idolatry. Neither is this in any respect a framing of the ministery of the Gospel by the examples of Idolatrous & heathenish functions. Except you will say also that because the Gentiles had Flamines, and the Christians had Bishops, therefore the Christian Bishops were framed according to the example of the Gentiles Flamines. If you cannot say so truly in Bishops, neither can you justly affirm it of Archbishops: for the reason is all one. Do you think this to be a good collection: where in the Pope's time there was a Massing priest, now is there placed a Minister of the Gospel, Ergo the ministery of the Gospel is framed according to the example of Massing priests? And yet thus do you conclude, that because there are nowadays Archbishops where before there were Archiflamines, therefore the ministery of the Gospel is framed according to the heathenish and idolatrous functions. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 68 Sect. 1 And to say that Peter appointed Archbishops and Bishops (*) by the example of Idolaters, No man hat said so. Esay. 2. is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon, and not out of Zion or jerusalem, as the Prophet saith. Io. Whitgifte. Neither Clement in that Epistle, nor Polidore in that book, nor Gratian dist. 80. saith that Peter appointed archbishops and bishops by the example of Idolaters, but this only they say, that in those Cities where there were before Archiflamines there were placed archbishops, and where three were Flamines, there bishops. There is great difference betwixt their kind of speech and yours. Howsoever the authors please you, or displease you, yet report their w rdes truly. M. Fox Tom. 1. Pag. 14. is of this judgement that where before there were Archiflamines, etc. there were placed patriarchs etc. His words be these: Thus it is made plain how the M. Fox, tom. 1. Pag. 14. bishop of the first seat, or first bishop or Primate is none other, but he which then was called patriarch, and belonged not only to the Church of Rome, but to all such cities and places, whereas before among the Gentiles were Primiflamines etc. Dist. 80. cap. rbes & loca, & in illis. Hitherto M. Fox. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 68 Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say after that james was an Archbishop, if he were, he was the first and placed over the jews. And although S. Peter might, to gain the Gentleman es, be c ntent to use their dolatrous functions, with a little change of their names, yet there is none so mad to think that he would translate any such function, from the Gentiles to the jews, which were never before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines. And this I dare generally and at once say, against Math. 5. 10. 9 you and your Element, that the Lord translated diverse things out of the Law into the Gospel as the Presbetery, or eldership, excommunication, and the office of Deacons (as it is thought) for that the Sadducees, of whom so often mention is made in the gospel, are thought to have had that office to provide for the poor, for those that know the Hebrew tongue, do understand that Tsadi in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Tsidkah, do not only signify justices and just men, but also alms and almesmen: I say these and others more translated from the law unto the gospel: but neither you nor your Clement, shall ever be 〈◊〉 to hue, that the Lord ever translated any thing from Gentelisme into the gospel. We read in the Acts, that all the Gentiles were commanded, to conform themselves unto Act. 15. the jews in the ab ayning from blood and strangled meat for a time, but we can n ere find that the jews were commanded to conform themselves to the Gentiles in their 〈◊〉, the reason whereof is, because the one was sometime the law of God, and therefore he that had conscience in it, was to be born with, and the other came from men and out of their forge which the L rd would never g we so much honour unto, as to make other men by any means subject unto them. Io. Whitgifte. If you had not learned that point of Sophistry which is called Petitio princip j, (whereof I have so oh ten-times told you) without doubt you had lacked much matter, and your book would have been very thin. For all this ado in this place is nothing but discanting upon a false plain song. The offices of an Archbishop and Bishop are no Idolatrous functions but Christian, and meet both for jew and Gentile converted unto Christ: neither are they translated from the Gentiles, but grounded upon the word of God, practised in the Apostles time, approved by the best councils as is declared in the answer to the Admonition, and shall be more amply hereafter, occasion being offered. Wherefore all this that you have here said, (the ground being taken away) serveth for no purpose. Your conjecture of the Deaconship to be taken from the jews, is but a mere conjecture, if there had been any such office in the law, it would have been specified in one place or other of the old Testament. Touching your eldership we shall see what you have to say for it in place. I will not trouble myself and the reader with buy matters not incident to this question. And yet I would gladly learn of you in what portion of the law your presbytery is commanded or prescribed, for I told you before out of M. Caluine, that it was appointed after the return of the jews from the captivity of Babylon. Your reason why there should be no orders or ceremonies taken from the Gentiles is not sufficient: for it is a negative reason ab authoritate. But to speak of that matter is now from the purpose because I have denied these offices to be taken from the Gentiles. Chap. 2. the seventh Division. T. C. Pag. 68 Sect. 4. B t what if there were no such offices among the Gentiles and Pagans as Archiflamine and Protoflamines? whereof before I show the conjectures which I have, I must give the gentle reader to understand, that I am not ignorant that there are diverse which say there were such offices among the Gentiles, and namely here in England: that there were. 25. Flamines and three Archiflamines, whereof were made three Archbishops of London, Canterbury, and York, and. 25. Bishops as Platine hath in the chapter E eutherius. And Ga' frydus Monemutensis in his second book and first chapter. And s I think Gildas also, and Lombard in his fourth book speaketh of it, as a general thing that was in all places where Paganism was. But if so be that the religion of other Pagans did follow, and was like unto that of the Romans (which is very probable) they being then the rulers of the whole world in a manner, unto whose example all men do lightly conform themselves even without commandment, than there is great likelihood, there were no such Archiflamines or Protoflamines out of Tully, which showeth that there were among the Romans diverse kinds of Priests whereof some were called Flamines of a several attire which they ware always on there heads, other Pontifices, and a third sort were called Salii, and the chief of those Flamines was called Flamen dialis, who was als distinguished from the rest by a white hat: but of any Archiflamines, or Protoflamines, he maketh no mention at all: and therefore it is like that there was never any such office amongst the Pagans. Io. Whitgifte. Whether there were such offices among the Gentiles or not, the matter is not great, nor worthy of deciding. But that there were such it is manifest, if any credit is to be given to so many Histories and writers both Eccles asticall and profane, Archiflamin not only those whom you have reported, but Gratian, Polydore, and others. But as a sufficient confutation of all this that you have here written, and as an argument of your unskilfulness in stories, I will set down the words of Master Fox, Tom. 1. Pag. 146. which be these: Let us return to Eleutherius the good bishop, who M. Fox, tom. 1. fol. 146. hearing the request of the King and glad to see the godly towardness of his well disposed mind, sendeth him certain teachers and preachers: called Fugatius, or by some Fagamus, and Damianus or Dimianus, which converted first the King and people of Britain, and baptized them with the baptism and sacrament of Christ's faith. The Temples of Idolatry and other monuments of Gentility they subverted, converting the people from their diverse and many Gods, to serve one living God. Thus true religion with sincere faith increasing, superstition decayed with all rites of Idolatry. There were then in Britain. 28. head Priests which they called Flamines, and three Archpriestes among them which were called Archiflamines having the oversight of their manners, as judges over the rest. These. 28. Flamines they turned to. 28. Bishops, and the three Archiflamines to three archbishops having then their eats in three principal Cities of the realm: that is in London, in York, and in Glamorgantia, videlicet in urbe legionum, by Wales. Your conjecture therefore is but vain, and cannot countervail so many witnesses. Moreover your argument is negative from human authority: for you argue that there were no Archiflamines among the Pagans, because Tully maketh no mention of them, and therefore of no credit. Besides why might not the Grecians call those Archiflamines whom Tully called Flamines diales. But the matter is not worthy the labour, and therefore thus briefly to have answered it shall suffice: oh lie I would have the Reader by the way to note the antiquity of Archbishops here in England, even from the first beginning of the public profession of Christiani e; archbishops in England, An. Do. 180. which was Anno. 180. or there about. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 68 Sect. 5. And if there were, I have showed how wicked it is to say that Peter framed the ministery of the Gospel by it. Now let it be seen of all men how strongly you have concluded, that the names of archbishops are not Antichristian, when as it is most certain that he was a pillar of Antichrist, upon whom your reason is grounded. Io. Whitgifte. Though it be certain that Peter framed not the ministery of the gospel by any custom of the Pagans, yet your arguments are of no force, to prove that he did not place ministers of the gospel, where there were before priests of the Pagans, call them by what other name you will or that in the chie Cities he placed not such as might direct and govern the rest: seeing it is the consent of all writers that the Apostles when they had planted Churches, did place Bishops, and other ministers in the Churches which were planted. Whether he were a pillar or no of Antichrist by whom I have hitherto proved the names of archbishops not to be Antichristian, I leave it to the learned to judge. f you mean Clement of whom Polidore doth borrow his report, it is evident that Polidore means that Clement that was one of the first Bishops of Rome, who was no pillar of Antichrist but a godly Bishop. If you mean Polidore himself upon whose credit I take the report, then surely h wsoever in diverse points oh Papism he erred, yet is he one that hath greatly detected and opened their supers' itions, and whose authority neither yourself nor any other learned man in many things will ref se. But if all this were true that you say, yet may we take reports of antiquities Repor es of antiquity may be taken from infi ls. even from Turks, Pagans, Papists, or ls must we condemn the most part of Histories. Chap. 2 the ninth Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 65. Sect. 2. Volusianus Bishop of Carthage, who lived Anno Do. 865. in one 〈◊〉. of his Epistles which he writ to Nicholas the first in the defence of the marriage of Priests, saith that Dionysius Areopagis a S. Paul's scholar, was by S. Paul made Archbishop of Athens. T. C. Pag. 68 Sect. ult. The times wherein Uolusianus lived declare sufficiently how little credit is to be given to his testimony, which were when the mass had place, if not so wicked as it was after, yet notwithstanding far differing from the simplicity of the supper which was left by our Saviour Christ. And Eusebius is of more credit in this than Uolusianus, which in the third book and fourth chapter, & in the fourth book and three & twenty chapter, saith of the report of Dionysius bishop of orinth. That S. Paul ade Dionysius Arcopagita (*) A notable 〈◊〉. bishop of Athens: he saith not Archbis op but Bishop, although he spoke twi e of it, & in the preface before his works it is said that after his conversion he went to Rome to Clement, and was sent with others of Clement into the west parts, and that he came to Paris and was there executed, whether soever of these opinions is true that falls which Uolusianus affirmeth. And if either Uolus anus or you, will have us believe that Dionysius Areopagita was Archbishop of Athens you must show some better authority than Eusebius, or Dionysius bishop of orinth, and then your cause shall have at the lest some more colour of truth. Io. Whitgifte. Thus indeed may you easily wipe away all authority of Histories, and Fathers. But this shift will not serve your turn with wise and learned men. Uolusianus was very well learned, and a very godly Bishop in his time, neither is it to be thought that he would write any thing in such a matter which he had not certainly learned of worthy writers. Your reason brought out of Eusebius, to prove the contrary, faileth in two respects. First, because it is negative from authority and that of man: For thus you conclude: Eusebius did not call him Archbishop, Ergo, he was no archbishop: which kind of argument is never good in any respect, when it is taken from the authority of man. Secondly, your argument faileth, because Histories be not so curious in call ing men by their several titles. They think it sufficient, if they use the common and most usual name, eu n as it is the common use amongst us, to call the Archbishops of Canterbury and York oftener by the names of Bishops of Canterbury and York, than by the names of Archbishops. So that in deed your argument being denied, you are not able by any sound reason to confirm it. If Eusebius or Dionysius had denied him to be an Archbishop, your argument had been good. Chap. 2. the. 10. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 65. Sect. 3 Erasmus in his argument of the Epistle to Titus, saith that Paul made Titus' archbishop of Creta, but Antichrist was not in Paul's time, Ergo, the name of an Archbishop was not invented by Antichrist. T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 1 Erasmus followeth, which saith Titus was Archbishop of Crete, whom I could answer with his own words. For I am sure he will grant me, that Titus and Timothy had one office, the one in Ephesus, the other in Crete, but it appeareth by Erasmus his own words that Timothy was but a Bishop of Ephesus, therefore Titus was but Bishop of Crete. (a) A slender proof. For Eras us in his argument upon the first Epistle of Timothy, saith that S. Paul did inform Timothy of the office of a Bishop, and of the discipline of the Church. If either he had been an archbishop, or an Archbishop had been so necessary as it is made, he would have instructed him in that also. Io. Whitgifte. This maketh wholly against yourself, for hereby it appeareth that the writers use not any great curiosity in observing proper titles, but they think it sufficient, if that name of office be used that comprehendeth all. Where doth Erasmus say, that Timothy was but a Bishop? Will you not learn to deal plainly? But let us hear your argument: Erasmus saith, that S. Paul did inform Timothy of the office of a Bishop, and of the discipline of the Church, Ergo, Erasmus saith that Timothy was no Archbishop. Undoubtedly you had need bear with other men's unskilfulness in Logic, if you use such reasons in good earnest. This argument also is negative ab bumana authoritate, Whatsoever is necessary for a Bishop is necessary for The difference betwixt an Archbishop & a Bishop. an archbishop, and the office of a Bishop is the office of an archbishop. There is no difference of Bishop and archbishop, but only this, that the archbishop hath authority over other Bishops, to call them together when occasion serveth, to see that they walk according to the laws and rules prescribed to keep unity and concord in the Church, and such like. There is no difference quantum ad ministerium, in respect of their ministery and function, but only quoad politiam & ordinem, in respect of policy and order, as I have said before. Chap. 2. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 2. And I pray you tell me whether Erasmus or the greek Scoliaste be more to be believed in this point, out of whom is taken that which is in the latter end of the Epistles to Timothy and Titus, where they both are called the first elected Bishops that ever were, either of Ephesus or Creta: for my part I think they were neither Bishops nor Archbishops, but (*) This is often promised, but never per ormed. Evangelists, as shall appear afterwards. But it may be sufficient to have set against Erasmus authority, the authority of the Scholiast. And here if you will cavil, and say that the Scholiast which saith he was Bishop, denieth not but that he also was an Archbishop, because an Archbishop is a Bishop, it may be answered easily, that the Scholiast did not speak nor writ so unproperly, as to call them by the general name of Bishop, whom he might as easily have called (if the truth would have let him) by a more proper and particular name of Archbishop. And further in (a) This division is not so strange as you make it. this division of the ministers, the Archbishop and the Bishop are members of one division, and therefore one of them can not be affirmed and said of an other, for that were contrary to the nature of a true division. Io. Whitgifte. I tell you that Erasmus and the grecke Scholiast, do very well agree, and the one doth expound the other. I tell you also that your negative arguments are not worth a rush, use them as oft as you list. What you think of Thimothie or Titus being Archebishops or Bishops, is not material, but of what force your reasons are shall be considered, when you utter them. If Erasmus and the Greek Scholiast were of divers judgements in this point (as they be not) yet were it an unlearned answer to set the one against the other. He that calleth an Archbishop a Bishop, speaketh properly, for so he is in the respect of his ministery, and substance of his office, the name of archbishop he hath only in respect of order and policy. Archbishop and Bishop are members of one division, as chief justice and justice is. Every chief justice is a justice, but every justice is not a chief justice: even so every Archbishop is a Bishop, but every Bishop is not an Archbishop: neither is this such a strange division as you think it to be. For Aristotle did in like manner divide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Regnum, Aristocratiam, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, that which is commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Chap. 2. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 3 And yet I have a further answer both to Erasmus and Uolusianus, and whatsoever other have written after this sort, that they spoke and gave titles to those men they written of, not according to that which they were, but according to the custom & manner of that age wherein they written. And so we may read that Uincentius and Nicephorus writing of Victor, speak far otherwise Vinc. 10. li. cap. 124. Nicep. 4. li. cap. 38. of him than Eusebius doth, which notwithstanding written of the same man which they did. The one calleth Victor the Pope of Rome: (*) Nicephorus falsified. and the other faith, that in glory he passed all the Bishops before him, which Eusebius never maketh any word of. Even so Uolusianus & Erasmus, living in the times when as they which were the most esteemed in the ministery, were called archbishops, call Titus and Dionysius Archebishops, upon whom depended the chief care of those Churches which they governed. Io. Whitgifte. This is no answer at all, first because Erasmus would then have given to Timothy the same title also: secondly because Erasmus being a man of so singular knowledge and judgement, would not otherwise than truly report of any man, especially in such a case, and handling matters of divinity. Thirdly, because when he written, there was neither Bishop nor Archbishop at Creta, as there was at Rome, when Vincentius and Nicephorus writ. And if this were true that you say, than should Eusebius when he written of Victor, have termed him a Patriarch or an Archbishop, or Metropolitan at the lest. For these names were usual in Eusebius his time. But why do you untruly report of Nicephorus? for in that book and chapter he giveth unto Victor no other name and title, than the same that Eusebius doth, for he calleth him by the bore name of Victor, without any other title, neither doth he say, that in glory he passed all the Bishops before him, but this he saith, that the other Bishops which were with him, did dissuade him from excommunicating the Bishops of Asia, and addeth: Et acrius severiusquecum illo qui gloria eos anteiret egerunt: They dealt more sharply and severely with him that excelled them in glory. Therefore he saith that he did excel in glory those Bishops that were then, not those which were before him. But what is this to your purpose? If he had given unto Victor any other title than was usual when he lived, doth it therefore follow that Erasmus and Volusianus had done so in like manner? will you answer such learned and notable men's authority, with so vain and childish conjectures. Chap. 2. the. 13. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 65. Sect. 4. & Pag. 66. Sect. 1 I omit Anacletus a godly Bishop and Martyr, who lived Anno Domini. 85. which in his Epistle, Tom. 1. conci. divers times maketh mention of Archbishops, patriarchs, Primates, metropolitans, and saith, that S. james, which was called justus, was the first Archbishop of jerusalem. I omit also Anicetus, who lived Anno Domini. 155. which likewise in his Epistle maketh mention of Archebishops. Because these Epistles are not without just cause suspected either to be none of there's, or else in divers points corrupted. T. C. Page. 69. Sect. 3 There followeth Anacletus, an other of these witnesses which must depose that the name of an archbishop is not Antichristian, of whom, as of Clement that went before, & Anicetus which followeth after, the common proverb may be verified: Ask my fell we it I be a thief. And although the Answerer be ashamed of him, and saith therefore, he will omit him: yet even (a) This is 〈◊〉 s will appea in the end. very need driveth him, to bring him in, and to make him speak the uttermost he can. And this 〈◊〉 man saith, that james was the first Archbishop of jerusalem: but Eusebius saith, james was Ibi. 2. 23. Bishop, not Archbishop of jerusalem, and appointed by the Apostles. And in the third book, (*) It is the▪ 〈◊〉 chapter. 22▪ chapter, he saith, that the Apostles did appoint after his death, Simeon the son of Cleophas Bishop of jerusalem. And Ireneus in his fourth book. 63. chapter, saith that the Apostles in all places appointed Bishops unto the Churches, whereby it may appear what an idle dream it is of Clement, Uolusianus, and Anacletus, either that Peter did this by his own authority, or that the primitive Church was ever stained with these ambitious titles of Patriarch, primate, Metropolitan, or Archbishop: when as the stories make mention, that throughout every Church, not every province, not by Peter or Paul, but by Apostles, a Bishop, not an Archbishop was appointed. Io. Whitgifte. If they be the A acletus, or Clemens, or Anicetus that commonly they are taken for, and these writings were there's uncorrupted, then were their witness sufficient, although they were Bishops of Rome. But I neither will defend their writings, neither do I think them to be worthy any defence, only I require but that liberty of using them, that no learned man refuseth when they serve his turn. Master Caluine doth allege this Anacletus his authority to prove that the people's consent Calvin. M. F xe. was required in the appointing of ministers. Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 61. So doth M. Fox tom. 1. pag. 12. who writeth thus: Wherefore as we must needs grant the Bishop of Rome to be called a Metropolitan, or an Archbishop by the Council of Nice: so we will not greatly stick in this also, to have him numbered with patriarchs or Primates: which title seemed in old time to be common to more Cities than to Rome, both by the Epistle of Anacletus, of Pope Stephanus, and Pope julius, and Leo. etc. Master jewel also himself doth use his authority in that sort that I do. But what need you be so curious, who have so often alleged the Canons of the Apostles: and in your. 95. page you use the authority of Higinus or Pelagius, as great a counterfeit as this Anacletus is. I speak not this to win any credit to Anacletus his M jewel. Pag. 95. sec. 4 Epistles or decrees, but to avoid your cavils, and to show that in citing him in this manner and form that I do, I do no otherwise than other godly and learned men have done. You shall understand ere I come to an end, that I have not alleged him for any need. Your argument to prove that james was no archbishop, because Eusebius and other do call him Bishop and not archbishop, is of the same nature that your other arguments be, that is, ab authoritate negatiuè: and therefore must be sent away with the same answer. Whether the Apostles placed james and Simeon at jerusalem, or not, is not the question. But you are something deceived in your quotation, for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius, have noted the. 11. chapter. The place of Ireneus, though it make not against any thing that I have spoken, if it were as you do allege it, yet must I tell you, that it is by you not truly understood. For Ireneu doth not say that the Apostles did together in every place Irenaeu . appoint Bishops, but he saith, Secundum successiones Episcoporum, quibus illi eam, quae in unoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt. According to the succession of Bishops, to whom they committed the Church that was in every place. Meaning that every one of the Apostles did appoint Bishops in those Churches, which they had planted, as S. Paul did at Ephesus and Creta. And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles together did place Bishops, yet that in other Churches which they planted, Sometime one Apostle did appoint Bishops. Tertulli. de prescript. they did the same severally, it is manifest, not only by these examples of Timothy and Titus, but of sundry other, whereof we may read in ecclesiastical histories, and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna, by S. john. And you yourself testify the same of S. john out of Eusebius, even in the next section. Moreover, it can not be gathered, either out of the words of Ireneus, or any other ecclesiastical history, that the Apostles did place Bishops any where, but in the chief and principal Towns and Cities, committing unto them the government of other villages and Towns, and the appointing of several Pastors for them, as it is also evident in the foresaid examples of Timothy and Titus, and the words of Ireneus import the same. But if they had in every Hamlet placed Pastors, yet doth it not follow, but that there might be some one in a Diocese or Province, by whom these Pastors should be directed: As Timothy at Ephesus, Titus at Crete. Chap. 2. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. ult. And here you put me in remembrance of an other argument against the Archbishop, which I will frame after this sort. (a) The mayor false. If there should be any Archbishop in any place, the same should be either in respect of the person or minister, and his excellency, or in respect of the magnificence of the place: but the most excellent ministers that ever were, in the most famous places, were no Archebishops, but Bishops only, therefore there is no cause why there should be any archbishop: For if there were ever minister of a congregation worthy, that was James. If there were ever any City that aught to have this honour, as that the minister of it should have a more honourable title than the ministers of other cities and towns, that was jerusalem, where the son of God preached, and from whence the Gospel issued out into all places. And afterward that jerusalem decayed and the Church there, Antioch was a place where the notablest men were, that ever have been since, which also deserved great honour, for that there the Disciples were first called Christians, but neither was that called the first and chiefest Church, neither the ministers of it called the Arch or principal Bishops. Io. Whitgifte. It is a strange matter that you should so grossly err in making arguments, seeing you have taken upon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the form of it. Your mayor is not true, for such offices may be appointed rather in the respect of the time, and of the people that are to be governed, Why these offices are appointed. than of the worthiness of the minister, or the dignity of the plate: and therefore your mayor doth not contain a perfect and sufficient distribution. Again the worthiness of the person, and the dignity of the place, be not at all the causes why such offices should be appointed in the Church, but the suppression of sects, the peace of the Church, and the good government of the same. The worthiness of the person may make him meet for such an office, and the place may be convenient for such officers to remain in: but neither of them both can be a sufficient cause why such offices should be appointed. I know the worthiest cities have had the pre-eminence in such matters, but it was because they were the most meetest places for that purpose, and the place doth only add one piece of title to the office, but it is not the cause of the office. Lastly, you have not yet proved that there was no Archbishops in those places, or that james had not that office. Chap. 2. the. 15. Division. T. C. Page. 70. Lin. 9 This is contrar to that which was immediately affirmed before. And Eusebius to declare that this order was firm and durable, showeth in the third book 13. chapter, that Saint john the Apostle, which overlived the residue of the Apostles, ordained Bishops in every City. Io. Whitgifte. This is no reason at all: S. john ordained Bishops in every Church, therefore there was no one Bishop superior unto them to govern and direct them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. john. discipline, order a d doctrine, if occasion served: I think that S. john himself was director and governor of them all, and in effect their archbishop. And that doth manifestly appear in that third book and. 23. chapter of Eusebius. For thus he saith: In those days john the Apostle and Evangelist, whom the Lord loved, lived Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 . as yet in Asia, which did govern the Churches there, after he was returned out of the Isle, from banishment, after the death of Domitian. And a little after he saith, That he went being desired, ad vicina Gentium loca, ut partim constitueret Episcopos, partim tota ecclesias componeret, partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sort deligeret: Unto the places of the Gentiles adjoining, partly that he might appoint Bishops, partly that he might establish whole Churches, partly that he might by lot choose such into the Clergy, as the holy Ghost should assign. So that whether he had the name of Archbishop, or not, certain it is, that he had the government and direction of the rest, and that he appointed Bishops and other Ministers. Eusebius doth not say that he ordained Bishops in every Church, for his words be as I have reported them. But if he had so said, it had not made any thing to your purpose, but against you. For he appointed them, not all the Apostles, nor the people, and he governed and directed them as their Archbishop. Chap. 2. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are (*) I say not only suspected, but that they are not without just cause suspected suspected, why do you say suspected, when as they have been convinced and condemned, and stand upon the pillory with the cause of forgery written in great letters, that he which runneth may read. Some of the Papists themselves have suspected them, but those which maintain the truth, have condemned them as full of popery, full of blasphemy, and as those in whom was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine. And do you mark what you say, when you say that these are but suspected? Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt, whether the whole body of Popery and antichristianity were in the Apostles time, or soon after, or no. For Clement was in the Apostles time, and their scholar▪ and so you leave it in doubt whether the Apostles appointed and were the authors of popery or no. I think if ever you had read the Epistles, you would never have cited their authorities, nor have spoken so favourably of them as you do. Io. Whitgifte. I say that they are not without just cause suspected, which you have left out, and therefore it appeareth that you have laid aside sincerity. I have alleged them with as little credit unto them, as either master Caluine, or any other doth. You yourself have sundry times in this Reply used (as I have said) as forged authors as these be, with less defacing of them. Turpe est doctori. etc. I can show good proof that I have read their Epistles: but I am not disposed either to boast of my own reading, or to deface other men's: I leave that to you. Chap. 2. the. 17. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 66. Lin. 5. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. But that notable and famous Council of Nice, must be, and is of all wise and learned men next unto the scriptures themselves reverenced, esteemed, and embraced. That Council celebrated Anno Domini. 330. (when as the Bishops of Rome were as yet learned Concil. Nice. and godly men) doth not only allow of the name, but also of the office of Metropolitan, Archbishop, Archdeacon. etc. In the sixte Canon of that Council it is thus written: This Metropolitan. Council doth determine him to be no Bishop, which is made without the consent Metropolitani Episcopi, of the Metropolitan. In the. 13. Canon mention is made of a patriarch, and of an Archdeacon. archdeacon divers times, and his office there in divers points declared, as it is also in the seventh Canon of the same Council. In the. 25. Canon is named both patriarch and archbishop, and Patriarch. declared what authority they had in their Provinces, and in admitting of Bishops. So is it likewise in the. 26. and. 27. Canons of the same Council. T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3 You come after to the Council of Nice, wherein I will not stick with you that you say it was held the. 330. year of the Lord, when it may appear by Eusebius his computation, that it was held Anno Domini. 320. Io. Whitgifte. I know that there is some variety among the writers, for the time of this Council. Uar tie concerning the time of the Nicen Council. Musculus in his common places saith, that it was celebrated Anno Domini. 313 the writers of the Magd. History, centu. 4. cap. 9 affirm (as they say) out of Eusebius that it was Anno Dom. 320. Master Fox Tom. 1. fol. 12 thinketh that it was Anno Dom. 340. and so doth Illyricus himself in his defence of the Magd. History, though he seem to be of a contrary judgement in the History itself. Pantaleon in his Cronographie placeth it Anno Do. 330. Some there be that say it was. 324. etc. So that to differ in the year is no such matter as deserveth any such nip. But if all circumstances be well considered. It will fall out that Eusebius himself confirmeth that which I have set down, touching the time of that Council. For Constantine began his reign according to Eusebius his Chronicle. Anno. 311. and this is noted also Cent. 4. fol. 62. But the Nicene Council according to the said century fol. 617. was held Anno. 17. Constantini. So that it must needs be by their own collection Anno. 328. or very near. But if we admit Eusebius chronicle for the beginning of Constantine's reign videlicet Anno. 311. it will fall out by Eusebius himself upon the time which I have appointed, for Lib. 4. de vita Constantini, he saith that the Nicene Council was held Anno vicesimo imperij Const. So that it must needs be Anno. 330. or in the beginning. 331. at the uttermost, but under it cannot be. Chap. 2. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3 And here you take so great a leap, that it is enough to break the Archbyshops' neck, to skip at once. 300. years without any testimony of any, either father or story of faith and credit which maketh once mention of an Archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. This leap shall not hurt him one whit. For if there were no other testimony but archbishops & metropolitans long before the Nicene Council. Concil. Niceni. Can. 6. that Council, it were of sufficient credit, and ability both to save his neck, and his body from all kind of harm. For seeing it is thus written in the sixth Canon of that Council Antiqua consuetudo servetur per Aegyptum, Libyam & Pentapolim, ut Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem, quia & urbis Romae Episcopo parilis mos. est. etc. Let the ancient custom be kept throughout Egypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria have the government of all these, for the Bishop of the city of Rome hath the same order. Likewise in Antioch and other Provinces, let every Church retain her privileges. But this is generally plain that if any be made Bishop without the consent of his Metropolitan, the great Synod hath decreed that he aught to be no Bishop. And in the seventh Canon, Quia consuetudo obtinuit & antiqua traditio, ut Aeliae Can. 7. Episcopus honoretur, habeat honoris consequentiam salva metropolis dignitate. For as much as custom & ancient tradition hath been such, that the Bishop of jerusalem be honoured, let him have honour accordingly, not impairing the dignity of the Metropolitan city. It is plain that archbishops and their office were long before the Council of Nice, for else why should the Canon say, Let the old custom be observed. etc. And M. Fox tom. 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons saith thus. First in the Council of M. Fox. Nice which was the year of our Lord. 340. and in the sixt Canon of the said Council we find it is so decreed that in every Province, or Precinct some one Church & Bishop of the same was appointed & set up to have the inspection & regiment of other Churches about him, Secundum morem antiquum, that is, after the ancient custom, as the words of the Council do purport. So that the Bishop of Alexandria should have power of Libya, and Pentapolis in Egypt, for as much as the Bishop of the City of Rome hath the like or same manner. Now if I might as safely allege the Canons of the Apostles as you do, than could I tell you that in the. 33. Canon (which Canon is alleged as good authority against the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome) you shall find archbishops. For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Bishops of every nation to know their first or chief Bishop, and him to be taken for the head of them. The words of the Canon be these. Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re, quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias. 35. inter ipsos primus sit, habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite, neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum. The Bishops of every country must know who is chief among them, and must take him as it were for their head, neither must they do any unaccustomed thing without his will, and every one must do those things alone by himself which belong to his parish and to the places that be under him: But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them, for so shall concord be kept, and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost. Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chief Bishop, or head of the rest and Archbishop: And lest you should think this Canon to be of small force (as suspected) you shall hear it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Council of Antioch, In every country it is convenient that Concil. Antioc . Can. 9 the Bishops should know that their Metropolitan Bishop beareth the care of the whole Province. Wherefore let all those that have any business repair to the Metropolitan city. And for this cause it is thought good that he both should excel in honour, and that the other Bishops do no unaccustomed thing without him, according to the ancient rule appointed of our fathers, saving those things only which belong to their own Diocese and to the places that are under them. For every Bishop hath power over his own parish to rule them according to reverence meet for every one, and to provide for all the country that are under his city, so that he ordain both Priests and Deacons and contain all things with his judgement. But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitan, neither let the Metropolitan do any thing without the advise of the other. You have now the Canon of the Apostles confirming archbishops, and the Council of nice & Antioch alleging old custom for them, and confirming them also. And a little before In the. 7. Division before. I declared unto you out of M. Fox that there were archbishops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great. Chap. 2. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3 What? no mention of him in Theophilus' Bishop of Antioch, none in Ignatius, none in Clemens Alexandrinus, none in justine Martyr, in Ireneus, in Tertullian, in Origine, in Cyprian, none in all those old Historiographers, out of the which Eusebius gathereth his story? was it for his baseness and smallness, that he could not be seen among the Bishops, Elders and Deacons, being the chief and principal of them all? Can the Cedar of Libanon be hid among the Box trees? Aristotle in his Rhetoric ad Theodecten saith that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other. Belike therefore if there were any Archbishop, he had no chair in the Church, but was as it seemeth digging at the metals, for otherwise they that have filled their book with the often mentioning of Bishops, would have no doubt remembered him. Io. Whitgifte. And what then? is not the Council of Nice, and of Antioch of as good credit as all these? Shall not Athanasius, Epiphanius, Ambrose, Jerome, Chrysostom, Sozomene, etc. countervail them? and yet if you had read these authors, you might have learned that in the most of them, the office of an Archbishop is expressed, as my answer following declareth. But still you use negative reasons ab authoritate, and that human. Your taunts and frumps I let pass: they are confutation sufficient to them selves. Chap. 2. the. 20. Division. T. C. Page. 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let us hear what the Council of nice hath for these titles. In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitan Bishop, what is that to the Metropolitan which now is? either to the name or to the office. Of the office it shall appear afterwards. In the name I think there is a great difference between a Metropolitan Bishop, and Metropolitan of England or of all England. A Metropolitan Bishop was nothing else but a Bishop of that place, which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate, to make the chief city of the Diocese or shire, and as for this name, (*) An untruth contrary to the manifest words of the Council of Nice. it maketh no more difference between Bishop and Bishop, than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington. There is no man that is well advised, which will gather of this saying, that there is as great difference in pre-eminence between those two Ministers as is between London and Nuington. For his office and pre-eminence we shall see hereafter. Io. Whitgifte. For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set down the judgement of certain of the learned writers of our time, touching the true meaning of that Canon The judgement of learned writers of the. 6. can. con. N cem. Caluine. of the Council of nice, as the practice of the Church before that time, at that time, and since that time, have expounded it. M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. saith thus. That every province had among their Bishops an Archbishop, And that the Council of Nice did appoint patriarchs which should be in order and dignity above archbishops: it was for the preservation of discipline. M. Caluine saith the Council of nice did appoint patriarchs which should be in order and dignity above archbishops. He saith also that every Province had among their Bishops an Archbishop. Il yricus in his catalogue testium veritatis speaking of this Council saith thus: Constituit Illyricus. quoque haec Synodus, ut singularum provinciarum Metropolitani, potestatem habeant in suos Episcopos, sacerdotes & ecclesias, Alexandrinus in Aegypto, Antiochenus in Syria. etc. This Synod also appointed that the metropolitans of every province should have authority over their Bishops, Priests, and Churches: The Bishop of Alexandria in Egypt, and the Bishop of Antioch in Syria. etc. And in his book that he entitleth a refutation of the innective of Brunus against the Centuries, he doth interpret this Canon on this manner. Here we see plainly that the Nicene Council first in this Canon doth give a primacy to the Metropolitan in every Province, and doth make subject unto him all the Bishops and Priests of his province. Moreover, that it maketh all the Metropolitan Bishops, as of Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch, and of other Provinces altogether of equal authority amongst themselves. And last, that the subjects (if that I may so say) of an other, may not appeal to any other Metropolitan, and after this manner the sixth Council of Carthage doth understand, allege, and urge the foresaid Canon in the former Epistle. M. Fox who hath very diligently, and faithfully laboured in this matter, and searched out the truth of it as learnedly, as I know any man to have done, in his first Tom. Pag. 11. writeth thus. Then followed the Council of nice wherein it was decreed M. Fox. that throughout the university of Christ's Church which was now far spread over the world, certain Provinces and Precinctes to the number of four were appointed every one to have his head Church and chief Bishop, called them metropolitans or patriarchs to have the oversight of such Churches as did lie about him: and Pag. 12. he speaketh to the same effect as it may appear in his words which I have before recited. And in the same Page he says: Wherefore as we must needs grant the Bishop of Rome to be called a Metropolitan or an Archbishop by the Council of nice: so we will not greatly stick in this also, to have him numbered with patriarchs or Primates. etc. But the very words of the Canon itself doth condemn you of a great oversight, T. C. condemned of un truth by the words of the Canon. Can. 6. For this is the Canon, antiqua consuetudo servetur per Aegyptum Libyam & Pentapolim: ita ut Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem etc. Let the ancient custom be kept throughout Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis, that the Bishop of Alexandria have the government of all these. etc. as is said before. How say you now? is not this for the name and for the office also of our metropolitans and archbishops? had not they jurisdiction of whole Provinces, as ours have? The authority of tropo. ane. were not all other Bishops and Ministers of the Church subject to them, as they be to ours? were not they metropolitans of Provinces and countries as ours be? And is this no more to differ, than a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington? Truly I marvel that you can be carried unto so manifest untruths, and palpable errors. But for the further declaration of the authority of a Metropolitan Bishop, though this which I have said be sufficient, it may please you to take pains to peruse, in the Con. Antioc . Council of Antioch the. 9 Canon. Per singulas provincias Episcopos convenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum, solicitudinem totius provinciae gerere. In every province it is convenient that Bishops should know, that the Metropolitan Bishop hath the caring for of the whole province. etc. as is mentioned before, in the first Canon of the Council of Ephesus. It is also evident that the Metropolitan of the Province (for so is he there called) had authority over all the Bishops in the same province. But to make short because I shall have other occasion to speak of this matter, M. Fox in the treatise before recited concludeth thus, Whereby it is to be concluded, that to be false that Clement and Anacletus and Anicetus be reported (but falsely) to put a difference between Primates or patriarchs, metropolitans, or archbishops, whereas by sufficient authority 〈◊〉 is to be proved, that in the old Church both Primates, first Bishops, Bishops of the first seat, patriarchs, metropolitans, Bishops of the mother City, and archbishops, were all one. First that Primates and metropolitans were both one, is before declared in the Canons of the Apostles, and by the Council of Antioch aforesaid. The same doth Vilierius Vilierius. affirm in his book de statu primitivae ecclesiae. Fol. 26. and proveth it out of Socrates very manifestly: that is, that metropolitans and patriarchs were all one at the first. I am not ignorant but there is some controversy among both the civilians and canonists whether a Metropolitan or an Archbishop be all one or not, but in the end this is the opinion of the most, so far as I can read or learn, that they be idem re, the same in deed, but differ nomine in name. For he is called an Archbishop in respect of the other Bishops of whom he is the chief. But he is called Metropolitan in respect of the Cities that be within his Province. But of archbishops and metropolitans more must be spoken hereafter. Chap. 2. the. 20. Division. T. C. Page. 70. Sect. ult. There are alleged to prove the names of Archbishops, patriarchs, Archdeacon's, the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the Council of Nice. For the. 25. 26. and. 27. there are no such Canons of that Council, and although there be a thirteenth Canon, there is no word of Patriarch or Archdeacon there contained. And I marvel with what shame you can thrust upon us these (*) These Canons differ only in number, and not in matter from, those that are not counterfeit. counterfeit Canons, which come out of the Pope's mint: yea and which are not to e found. Theodorete says, that there are but twenty Canons of the Council of nice, and those twenty are in the ome of the Counsels, and in those there is no mention of any Patriarch, Archbishop, Archdeacon. Li. 1. cap. 8. Li. 1. cap. 6. Ruffian also remembreth. 22. Canons, very little differing from those other twenty, but in length, & in none of those are found any of these names of Archbishop, Archdeacon, or Patriarch, and it is as (a) Not so, for that is repugnant to the true Canon ; & therefore sergeant. lawful for M. Harding to allcage the. 44. Canon of the Council of nice to prove the Supremacy of the Pope of Rome, as it is for M. Doctor Whitgifte to allege the. 25. 26. 27. to prove the name of Archbishop, Archdeacon, Patriarch: for they are all of one stamp and have like authority. Io. Whitgifte. I will not greatly stick in the defence of those Canons, the fixth & the seventh Canon do sufficiently verify all that I have alleged out of the other, as is declared not only Controversy about the number of the Canons conci. Niceni. by the words of the Canons, but by the judgement of those, whose learning & Religion was never as yet stained. I know that there is no small controversy about the number of the Canons of that Synod. In the book of the Counsels there are only twenty, in Ruffian. 22. Athanasius in an Epistle that he (as some think) with the other Bishops of Egypt writ to Marcus Bishop of Rome (if any credit is to be given unto Canons ascribed to the Nicene council, not found in the number extant. Con. Arelat. that Epistle) writeth that there were first. 80. and afterwards the same brought into 70. Canons. Isodorus in his preface to the Council, saith that in the decrees of Pope julius, there is mention made of. 70. Canons, so that for the number of the Canons there is great difference in the writers. Concilium Arelatense the second, Canon the. 24. doth recite a Canon of the Council of Nice, touching infamous libels, which is not to be found among the. 20. Jerome in his preface upon the book of judith saith that the Council of Nice did Hieronymus. reckon that book in the number of the holy scriptures, and yet there is no such thing to be found among those. 20. Canons. Ambrose Lib. 10. the Epistle. 82. attributeth another Canon to the Council of Nice Ambrose. concerning 2. Marriages in clerks, I could recite more Canons alleged by good writers out of that Council, which are not to be found in those. 20. or. 22. but it shall not need. Wherefore though I have alleged more Canons than are to be found in the volume of Counsels: yet I have done nothing which is strange, neither have I alleged any Canon that is not agreeable to the sixth and seventh, whereof there is no doubt: and according to the true meaning of those two Canons, as they be interpreted by the The. 25. 26. 27. Canons differ only in number, not in substance from the true Canons. best learned. And in very deed, the. 25. 26. 27. Canons by me alleged are the very same with the. 6. &. 7. differing only in number, wherein I followed the author that so placed them. And in the. 13. Canon the name of Archbishop is added, whereof more shall be spoken hereafter (God willing). M. Hardings. 44. Canon is plain repugnant to the sixth Canon, and therefore without all doubt a counterfeit. But the Canons that I have alleged agree both with the sixth and seventh, and therefore not unlike to be truly attributed to that Council, in these points wherein I have alleged them. Chap. 2. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 1 I fear greatly some crafty dissembling Papist had his hand in this book, who having a great deal of rotten stuff, which 〈◊〉 could not utter under his own name, being already host, brought it unto the author hereof (*) You 〈◊〉 you use. which hath upon his credit without further examination set it to sale. Peradventure you will think scorn to be censured and reprehended of a poor minister of the country, and therefore I will turn you over for your lesson in this behalf unto the Bishop of Salisbury in his reply against M. Harding touching the article of the Supremacy. Io. Whitgifte. Fear not I warrant you, I have alleged nothing which I am not able by sufficient testimony to prove, that I have read myself. And therefore your surmise is but grounded upon your own practice. Whatsoever the Bishop of Salisbury saith in his reply against Harding touching the Canon alleged by him is most true, and I do most willingly acknowlenge it so to be, neither do I take any Canon of that Council as undoubtedly true , but these, 20. specified in the first Tome of Counsels, the other I have only mentioned as ble, because they agree with them, and yet all the Canons that I have alleged, be tant in print and the book is commonly to be sold, and therefore I have not received them of any other. Chap. 2. the. 22. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 66. Sect. 3 Ambrose also that old and learned father, both alloweth the name Ambrose. and office of an Archbishop, Lib. de dignitate Sacerdotum. cap. 5. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 2. If (*) Ambrose i little beholding to you, that cannot be accepted for a witness. all should be allowed of that S. Ambrose alloweth of, then besides other things which he holdeth corruptly, the marriage of the Ministers should go very hard: but it is worthy to be observed with what words Ambrose doth allow of the Archbishop, that all men may understand, 1. Lib. offi. cap. 50. how low it goeth with M. Doctor, for his defence of the Archbishop: and how the Archbishop is so out of credit, that there cannot be got any to be surety for his honesty. Ambrose complaining of the Ministers or Bishops in those days saith, if a man ask them who preferred them to be Priests, answer is made by and by that the (a) In those words Ambrose doth not dissa low the office, but the abuse of it by the person. Archbishop for an hundred shillings ordained me Bishop, to whom I gave an hundred shillings that I might get the favour to be Bishop, which if I had not given I had not been Bishop: and afterward he saith that this grieved him, that the Archbishop ordained Bishops carnally or for some carnal respect, and this is all the allowance that Ambrose showeth of an Archbishop. Your Archbishop taketh all things in good part, so that his very dispraise he expoundeth to his commendation. Io. Whitgifte. I know no man whose writings and works are so perfect (the writers of the Canonical scriptures excepted) that all things in their books are to be allowed. But God forbid that we should therefore reject that which they have well and truly spoken: you will do little for Ambrose if you will not allow him for an historical witness of that which was in his time, this is therefore a shifting answer, but nothing commendable. It evidently appeareth by that place, that in his time there were archbishops, for what though he reprove the abuse of some archbishops in ordaining Bishops & Ministers for money, doth he therefore disallow, either the name or the office? Nay this is rather to be concluded, that there were archbishops in Ambroses' time, which had authority to ordain Bishops, because Ambrose doth reprove such archbishops as for carnal respects ordained Bishops. Your undutiful and arrogant frumps and scoffs I pass over. It seemeth by your so often using them, that you are afraid, lest you should be taken for a modest Christian. Chap. 2. the. 23. Division. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 3 And there is great (*) An unlikely likelihood void of truth. likelihood, that the Archbishop which Ambrose maketh mention of was no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherein Bishops were ordained, and after the action ended, had no more authority than the rest. Io. Whitgifte. If you had read any ancient story or father: yea if you had but perused M. calvin's Institutions the. 8. Chapter, or any writer entreating of this matter, you would never have uttered this vain conjecture, nor showed so manifest a token of great ignorance, and no reading. For it shall appear by sufficient testimony, that neither the name nor office of an Archbishop was any thing at all straimge in this time. And the authors of the Centuries: Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himself was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitan. Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens, A Metropolitan governing many Churches adjoining together. Your conjecture that this Archbishop should be no other, than he which for the time ruled the action, wherein Bishops were ordained and after the action ended, had no more authority than the rest, is a mere fancy of your own, contrary to all authority, and without any ground or similitude of reason, and yet you often repeat it, and make it the foundation of this your building. But let us hear your conjectures. Chap. 2. the. 24. Division. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moved so to think, First because it is not like, that one only ordained Bishops, being contrary to the old Canons of the best Counsels: but that there were other, and that this whom Ambrose calleth Archbishop, did gather the voices. etc. Io. Whitgifte. I have showed before, that it was not so strange at this time for the Bishop alone to ordain Ministers. And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose. somewhat to do in this matter, for he calleth them populum nugacem & indoctum, qui talem sibi asciverunt sacerdotem: a people that trifeleth and is unlearned, that hath got unto them such a priest. But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election & ordination? For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordaining and not of electing. If you will needs so distinguish them that they may not be at any time, nor in any place confounded, then have you answered yourself here, and with one conjecture overthrown an other. But howsoever it is, conjectures can not prevail against so manifest a truth, being so silly conjectures. For tell me where you ever red that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voices, or that this name was attributed to any during the action only, and no longer. This is very new Divinity unheard of in any good Author that I have read, or can hear of. Chap. 2. the. 25. Division. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly, because it was very unlike that there was any absolutely above S. Ambrose in those parts where he complaineth of evil bishops or ministers made. Io. Whitgifte. Why, to whom or for whom did Ambrose writ this book? for his own province or Diocese only? therein are you deceived, that you think Ambrose to have written this book for his own Province only, when he writ it to profit the whole Church, as it may appear in the first Chapter of that Book. Neither doth he complain of such evil Bishops or ministers as were under him (for then should he have complained of himself, being their Metropolitan) but of such he complaineth, as were in other places and Provinces, as may be seen by these words of his. Ita ut videas in Ecclesia passim, quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig. Sacer cap. 5. ordinem provexerunt, So that a man may see every where in the Church such as are promoted to the order of a Bishop, not by deserts but by money, and therefore this conjecture is soon answered. Chap. 2. the. 26. Division. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly, for that Ambrose in an other place (which you after cite) dividing all the Church into the clergy and laity, doth subdevide the clergy into bishops, Elders, and Deacons, and therefore it is not like, that there was any which had any continual function of archbishop: But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the dance which cometh first, and after coming in again in the second or third place, is no more so called, so that bishop was called archbishop, which for the time present did gather the voices of the rest of the bishops, which he by and by laid down, with the dissolving of the meeting. And that this is not my conjecture only, that there was no ordinary or absolute archbishop (*) Where, or which century let the Centuries be seen (a) Untruth. which allege that place of Ambrose to prove that the office of an archbishop was not then come into the Church, which was four hundred years after Christ, and more also. Io. Whitgifte. This is a dancing devise in deed, without any shadow of truth, as it may appear by that which already is alleged, and shall do more and more by that which followeth. You are marvelous circumspect in your quotations lest you should be tripped, and therefore you say let the Centuries be seen, but you tell not where. Surely you do very untruly report the Centuries, for I have red them where they do allege that place of Ambrose, and there is not to be found any such matter, but the clean contrary, as is to be seen in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleged of the fourth Cent. the words be these: Episcopi & Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs civitatibus, sicut Basilium Metropolitanun Capadocum, Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi, qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem, idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha, totius alicuius provinciae diceba ur Episcopus, ut Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishops and Metropolianes were named of the chief and princip ll Cities, as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitan of Cappadocia, lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes, such as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarch of some whole province was called a Bishop, as Socrates showeth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldness in you to avouch so manifest untruths. Neither is it any marvel though you quote not the places, for forgery seeketh corners. Forgery seeketh corners. And although that which hath been hitherto alleged out of the councils of Nice, and Antioch, with the judgement of so many learned men interpreting the same, might serve to persuade any reasonable man, that the office and name of archbishop and Metropolitan is both of great antiquity and not for one action only, or a dancing office (as you would have it) but fixed and permanent: yet because I have to do with quarrelers, before I go any further in confuting, I will 〈◊〉 down the judgement of other ancient and famous writers also, who allow both of these names and offices: And first I will recite such as have the names expressed with the offices, than such as speak of the very thing it sell e without the names. I will begin with Counsels. The Council of Nice, as you have heard, hath the name of Metropolitan, Counsels of the name and oh ice of Metropolitan an Archbishop. etc. Con. Ni en. Can. 4. . 7. and doth limit unto y certain Provinces, to govern and take the care of. It hath been declared that both M. Caluine, Illyricus, M. Fox, and others do acknowledge the names and office of patriarchs and archbishops. etc. in the same Canon to be contained. Neither do they, nor any other learned writer deny these names and offices to have been in the primitive Church, and that fixed to certain places and people, not movable by actions, nor practised by course. Likewise you have heard, how that Council by this clause Secundùm morem antiquum, according to the ancient custom, doth signify that these names and offices have been in the Church of long time, or else it would not have been said to be an old custom. Moreover, the ninth Canon of the Council of Antioch before alleged is Con. Antiocb. can. 9 most plain and evident, both for the name and the thing, together with the long continuance of them in the Church. The. 20. Canon of the same Council of Antioch sayeth directly, that no Bishops Can. 20. may call a several Council without the consent of their metropolitans. In the sixth and. 37. Canons Concilij Arelatensis, mention is made of the Metropolitan, Con. Arelat. cano. 6. &. 37. of his authority in ordering of bishops, and of the authority of his Synod. The like both for the name and the matter also, touching ordaining of Con. L odic. can. 12. Con Cartb. 2. Can 12. bishops is in the twelsth Canon of the Council of Laodicea. In the second Council of Carthage in the twelfth Canon it is evident, that there was a Primate in every Province, and that without his commandment it was not lawful for any to be ordained Bishop. In the. 13. and. 17. and divers other Canons of the general Council of Carchage Con. Carth. can. 13.▪ 17. etc Con. Chalcedo. as it is in the Greek copy the authority of the Primate is also expressed. In the Council of Chalcedon the name of archbishop is sundry times used: Flavianus is there called archbishop of Constantinople, Dioscorus archbishop of Alexandria and one Atticus bishop of Nicopolis, doth call the said Dioscorus Archi piscopum nostrum, our archbishop. Leo is called archbishop of Rome. etc. Of the Counsels that followed there is no doubt, and it were but superfluous for me to stand in reciting of them, and therefore this shall suffice for the Counsels, to show that both the name of Metropolitan or Archbishop, and also the authority is not unheard of in the Church of Christ, or a flitting or sliding office. Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the name and 〈◊〉 t archbishop. E phanius. Now to the fathers and stories. Epiphanius Lib. 2. tom. 2. haeri. 68 calleth one Peter archbishop of Alexandria. And that it may fully appear, that it was both a continual office and of great authority and jurisdiction, I will set town his words. Et Meletius quidem in carcere detentus erat unà cum praedictis Martyribus, ac Petro Alexandria Arc iepiscopo. etc. And Meletius truly was kept in prison together with the forenamed Martyrs, and Peter the Archbishop of Alexandria: and Meletius seemed to excel the other bishops of Egypt, for he had the second place after Peter in his archbishopric, as being under him to help him, and looking to Ecclesiastical matters under him: For this is the custom, that the bishop of Alexandria hath the Ecclesiastical government of all Egypt, Thebais, and Mareota, and Libya, and Ammonica, and Mareotis, and Pentapolis. In the same leaf he calleth this Peter Archbishop three times. This Peter lived in the year of our Lord three hundred and four, twenty years at the lest before Peter, Arch bishop of Alexandria above twenty years before the Council of Nice. Idem. the Council of Nice. The same Epiphanius in the same Book and Tome baere. 69. writeth thus: Quotquot enim Ecclesiae in Alexandria catholicae Ecclesiae sunt, sub uno Archiepiscopo sunt. All the Churches that are Catholic Churches in Alexandria, are under one archbishop. And a little after he calleth Meletius archbishop of Egypt, but yet subject to Alexander the archbishop of Alexandria, and all this was before the Council of Nice. What can be spoken more aptly, and more plainly to my purpose? And if T. C. will cavil at the authority of the author (which is the poorest shift that can be, especially when the author is so generally allowed) then for brevities sake, I do refer him to the Epistle of janus Cornarius prefixed before this Book, and to that which after ward I have alleged in his defence out of the Centuries. Athanasius was called archbishop of Alexandria: and that it may appear that it was not a bore title, but an office of Government, you shall find these words in his second Apology: Iscbaras quidam, ut nequaquam clericus, ita moribus improbissimus conatus est sui pagi insulas decipere, iactans seize clericum esse. Id ubi rescivisset eius loci Presbyter, mibi tum Ecclesias Atbanas. Apol. 2. perlustranti renunciavit: ego igitur. etc. A certain man named Ischaras, as he was no Clerk, so was he most wicked in manners, who went about to deceive the yles of his precinct, boasting that he was a Clerk: when the Priest of that place understood thereof, he told it unto me, when I was visiting my Churches, so I sent the same man together with Macharius the Priest to fetch unto me Ischaras, whom when they found sick in his chamber, they commanded his father to warn his son, that he attempted no such thing as was reported of him. And after in the same place followeth Ischaras' Letters of submission to Athanasius. In the same Apology there are Letters of submission written by Arsennius bishop of Hipsell, and the Ministers and Deacons of the same Diecesse to Athanasius: the beginning of the Letters is this: Et nos quoque diligentes pacem & unanimitatem cum ecclesia catholica, cui tu per Dei gratiam praefectus es, volensque ecclesiastico Canoni, pro veteri instituto, subijci, scribimus tibi (Papa dilect) promittimusque in nomine Domini nos deinceps non communicaturos cum schismaticis. etc. And we also loving peace, and concord with the Catholic Church over which thou art by the grace of God appointed, and willing according to the old custom to be subject to the Ecclesiastical Canon, writ to thee (loving father) and in the name of the Lord promise, that we henceforth will not communicate with the Schismatics. By this it is plain that Athanasius had great jurisdiction over many Bishops, and other Ministers, and ecclesiastical people. Again in the same Apology mention is made of an Archbishop. In the same Book the Priests and Deacons of the Churches of Mareota, in an Epistle that they writ to the Synod, besides that they call Athanasius, Episcopum nostrum, our bishop, they show that he used to visit the Church solemnly accompanied. Their words are worth the noting, and be these following: utpote qui non longis finibus ab Episcopo distemus, & comites in lustranda Marioteei cohasimus, nunquam enim ille solus visitandi causa itinera obire solet: sed comites secum trabere, Presbyteros & Diaconos & non paucos ex plebe. Because we devil not far from the bishop, and we accompanied him whilst he visited Mariotes, for he is never wont alone to take journeys in visitations, but to take companions with him, Priests and Deacons, and many of the people. And his own words a little before that Epistle speaking of these Priests, and Deacons, be these: Et mecum Provincias lustrabant, And they visited the Provinces with me. Whereby also it is evident, that he had a large jurisdiction, and that he did visit his Provinces. The same Athanasius in that. Apology, declaring what this place called Mariotes is, saith: Mariotes ager est in Alexandria, quo in loco nunquam fuit Episcopus: imo ne Chorepiscopus quidem, sed univer sae eius loci Ecclesiae Episcopo Alexandrino subjacent: tamen ut singuli pagi, suos presbyteros habeant. Mariotes is a territory of Alexandria, where there was never Bishop, not not so much as a bishops deputy, but all the Churches of that place are under the Bishop of Alexandria, yet so that every village have their Priests. In his Epistle Ad solitariam vitam degentes, he calleth Lucius Metropolitan of Sardinia, and Dionysius Metropolitan of Mediolane. Socrates Lib. 5. cap. 8. saith, that in the Council of Constantinople, They confirmed Socrates. the faith of the Nicene Council, and appointed patriarchs, assigning their Provinces, that the bishops of one Diocese should not intermeddle in other Churches (for this before was indifferently used by reason of persecution) And to Nectarius was allotted Megalopolis, and Thracia. etc. The same is to be seen in the Canons of that Council of Constantinople. justinian. Illyricus. Cent. 4. I omit justinian the Emperor, who so often mentioneth these names and offices in his Constitutions. I also omit that Illyricus calleth Cyprian Metropolitan of Carthage: and the fourth century, where Ambrose is called Metropolitan, having government of many Churches. Neither shall I need to repeat the places of Caluine, M. Fox, M. Beza Lib. conf. cap. 5. or other late writers judgements, who directly confess, that these names were usual in the Primitive Church, and that the office was permanente: for this that is spoken, may suafice. I will come to those Authors and places, where the office and jurisdiction is The office of Metropolitan & Archbishop without the name. Cyprian. Greg. Nazi. spoken of, though the name be not expressed. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist. 8. sayeth, that he had a large Province, Habet enim Numidiam & Mauritaniam sibi cobaerentes, for it hath Numidia and Mauritania annexed unto it. And Gregory Nazianzene in the Oration that he made in the commendation of Cyprian sayeth, that he did rule and govern not only the Churches of Carthage or Africa, sed & Hesperiae universae: imò Orienti ferè ipsi ad finem usque meridiei & Septentrionis: but of all Spain, and almost of the whole east, unto the end of the south and the north. And what was this else, but to be an archbishop? Eusebius Lib. 6. cap. 1. sayeth, that Demetrius was Bishop of the Parishes of Alexandria, Eusebius. and of Egypt, and this Demetrius lived Anno Domini. 191. Eusebius testifieth there likewise that one julianus was before him in the same room. Athanasius in an Epistle that he writ De sententia Dionysijs Episcopi Alexand. contra Arrianos, Atbanasius. affirmeth, ad Dionysium Alexandria▪ Episcopum curam etiam Ecclesiarum in Pentapoli superioris Libyae pertinuisse, that unto Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria the care of the Churches in Pentapolis of the higher Libya pertained. And it is manifest in the same Epistle, that these Churches had their bishop besides. For Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 26. Euseb. writeth, that Basilides was bishop of the parishes of Pentapolis while Dionysius lived: so that it is evident that Dionyfius was an archbishop. And this is that Dionysius that is called Alexandrinus, whose works be extante, and is one of the most ancient writers. The same Eusebius saith, that Gregory did govern the Churches throughout Pontus. Sozomen. Lib. 7. cap. 19 saith, that though there be many cities in Sythia; yet they Sozom. have but one bishop. Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 11. testifieth, that Amphilochius to whom the Metropolitan city of Licaonia was committed to be governed, did also govern that whole country, and did drive from thence the heresy of the Messalians: And in the same Chapter we Theodoret. read that Letoius governor of the Churches of Militia, burned Monasteries infected with that heresy: which declareth that Bishops had then great authority in government. Aurelius' Bishop of Carthage in the Council of Africa said, that he had the oversight and care of many Churches. But what need I labour so much in a matter that can not be unknown to Con. Afric. can. 55. in graeco. any that is of any reading, this therefore shall suffice both for the name and office of an archbishop & Metropolitan. etc. against the unlearned distinction that you have used in answering S. Ambrose. Chap. 2. the. 26. Division. answer to the Admonition. Pag. 66. Sect. 5. Sozomenus likewise Lib. 2. of his Ecclesiastical history cap. 8. calleth simeon Archbishop of Seleucia, and Basile the great Metropolitan of Cappadocia. Lib. 3. cap. 16. T. C. Page. 71. Sect. ult. basil you say, the great Metropolitan of Cappadocia. I have showed what the word Metropolitan signifieth, and how there was not then, such a Metropolitan as we have now, and as the Admonition speaketh against. You play as he whithe is noted, as none of the wisest among the merchants, which thought that every ship that approached the haven was his ship. For so you think that wheresoever you read Metropolitan or archbishop▪ forthwith you think, there is your Metropolitan, or your archbishop, where as it shall appear, that besides the name, they are no more like, than a bishop with us is like a minister. Io. Whitgifte. What this word Metropolitan signifieth, what office and jurisdiction he had, is before sufficiently declared, and may more at large appear in the constitutions of justinian. Likewise whether our Metropolitans in office any thing at all differ from them. Surely he that shall well consider your unapt answers and your utopicall jests, may think that you wear the livery of those merchants you talk of, and may very well sail in their ships. Chap. 2. the. 27. Division. T. C. Pag. 72. Sect. 1 I can not tell whether you would abuse your reader here with the fallation of the accent, because this word great is so placed between Basile and Metropolitan, that it may be as well referred to the Metropolitan, as to basil, and so you having put no comma, it seemeth you had as lief have your reader, read great Metropolitan as great Basil. But that the simpler sort be not deceived thereby, it is not out of the way to let the reader understand what a great Metropolitan this was, which appeareth, for that when he was threatened by the magistrate confiscation, of his Sozom. 6. l. e. 16. goods, answered, that he was not afraid of the threatenings, and that all his goods were a very few books, and an old gown: such were then those metropolitans, under whose shadows M. Doctor goeth about to shroud all this pomp and princely magnificence of Archbishops. Io. Whitgifte. You search very narrowly when you miss not a comma, but you know what nugator signifieth. All men of learning can tell that Basile is in common speech called Basile the great. And yet if he were called great Metropolitan, the title might very well agree unto him: for he had large and ample jurisdiction, being bishop of Cappadocia, as Athanasius doth also witness in his Epistle written to Palladius. The contention is for the name and the office, not for the riches, all houghe I think that there both are and have been Bishops in England as poor as Basile if they had en taken so soon after they were placed in their bishoprics, as Basile was now at this tyme. Chap. 2. the. 28. Division. T. C. Pag. 72. Sect 2. 3. 4. As for simeon Archbishop of Sele cia, I will not deny, but at that time was the name of Archbishops. For then (*) An unadvised answer. Satan had made through the titles of Archbishops, Pr ates, and patriarchs, as it were three stairs, whereby Antichrist might climb up into his cursed seat, notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godly councils which did strike at these proud names, and went about to keep them down. But the swelling waters of the ambition of divers, could not by any banks be kept in, which having once broken out in certain places, afterwards covered almost the face of the whole earth. This devour of godly men may appear in the Council of Carthage, which decreed, that the Con. Car . cap. 39 bishop of the first seat should not be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, either the chief of the priests, or the high priest, or any such thing, by which words (any such thing) he shutteth out the name of Archbishop, and all such hau e titles. The same decree also was made in the African council, and if you say that it was made against Con. tom. 1 cap. 6. the Pope of Rome, or to forbid that any man should be called Archbishop, show me where there was either bishop of Rome, or any other that ever made any such title or challenge to be the general Bishop of all at that time, when this council of Carthage was held, when as the first of those which did make any sum h challenge, was the bishop of Constantinople, which notwithstanding (a) An untruth. challenged not the pre-eminence first over all, but that he might ordain bishops of Asia, Pontus, Thracia, which were before appointed by their Synods, and this was in the council of Chalcedon, which was long after that council of Carthage before remembered. Io. Whitgifte. It is before sufficiently declared, that these names and offices were allowed and confirmed by the Council of Nice, and therefore not brought in by Satan. Moreover this simeon Archbishop of Seleucia, lived as it may appear by most Chronicles about the time of the Council of Nice, and was martyred by Sapores the king of Persia. Which peradventure if you had understood, you would not have burst out into this heat of words, for than might you have made the same answer to Ambrose his authority which was long after him, & so kept secret your own fond devise. The Council of Carthage and also of Africa was at that time, wherein the Bishop of Rome by his Legates did claim the right of hearing of appeals, from whom soever they were made, and for his purpose alleged a counterfeit Canon of the Council of Nice. Wherefore it is most certain, that then th' Bishop of Rome began at the least to claim the supper oritie over all Churches, and to take upon him as it were the name of universal bishop: and therefore this canon is made against him. And that this is true, the Epistle of the Council of Africa written to Celestinus, then Bishop of Rome declareth. For after that they have esyred him that he would admit no such appeals, nor absolve such as they should excominunicate, because that was to do against the decrees of the Council of Nice, and to abridge them of their jurisdiction and liberty: they add and say: Both because this privilege hath been taken from the Church of afric by no constitution of the fathers, and also the decrees of the council of Nice hath committed both the inferior clerk and the Bishops themselves unto their metropolitans: for it was discreetly and rightly considered, that all matters are to be determined in the places, where they began. and that no province can lack the grace of the holy ghost, whereby the priest of Christ may be able, both wisely to see, and also constantly to maintain the right: especially for that it is lawful, for every man that shall mislike the discretion of the judges, to appeal either to particular counsels within the same province, or else to an universal council: unless perchance some man will think, that God is able to inspire the trial of justice into one man alone, and will not inspire the same into a great number of priests meeting together in Council. And how may such beyond sea judgement be thought good, whereunto the people of the witnesses which in trial of truth are thought necessary either for that they be women, or for the infirmity of their age, or for many other incident lets, cannot be brought. Now that any should be sent abroad as it were from your holiness side, we found it not decreed in any Council. And a little after, And sand you not any your Clerks hither to execute justice at any man's request, lest we seem to bring the smoky puff of the world into the Church of Christ. etc. Whereby it is plain, that they only prohibit that title of universality and of general jurisdiction, that the Bishop of Rome now claimed and at that time began to claim over all Churches, and not the names of superiority due unto any in their own province. For that prerogative of jurisdiction over. Bishops and other ministers they acknowledge to be due to the Metropolitan, as it is evident in the words of that same epistle, which I have recited. Moreover it is manifest that this name Archbishop was then used, and after that The name of Primate allowed in the Council of Carthage. M. Fox. time continued and not disallowed by any, as it may appear by that which hath been hitherto written. And this name Primate (which is as haughty as the name of Archbishop) is allowed even in that council of Carthage, as may appear in the. 13. 17. and. 23. canons, as it is in the Greek copy. Wherefore in my opinion M. Fox doth aptly decide this controversy, in that learned treatise of his first tome, where he speaking of this same Council and of this Canon which you have recited, (for I suppose you did borrow it there) signifieth in effect that neither the name of Primate, Archbishop or Metropolitan, is by that Canon prohibited, but rather these ambitious titles of universal Bishop, prince of all priests, head of all priests, and such like. Which names seem to derogate authority both of jurisdiction and office from all other priests, and therefore a little after he says. Thus than these titles above recited, as Bishop, Metropolitan, Bishop of the first seat, Primate, Patriarch, Archbishop, that is to mean, chief bishop or headbishop oh other bishops of his province, we deny not but were then in old time applied and might be applied to the Bishop of Rome, like as the same also were applied to other patriarchs in other chief cities and provinces. And in the same place, after he a'the declared this title (summus orbis Pontifex) as it is now used in Rome to be unhard of in the primitive time of the Church, that is five hundred years after Christ. He says the like is to be affirmed also of other presumptuous titles of like ambition, as the head of the universal Church, the vicar of Christ in earth, Prince of priests, with such like, which be all new found terms. etc. so that it is plain, that these general titles of universal jurisdiction over all, and not the particular names of superiority over several Churches, is by this Council forbidden. This farther appeareth in the fifth Council of Constantinople where john not Con. Const n. alias the. 2. being content with the name of Patriarch of Constantinople would needs have it ratified by the council that he should be called Oecumenicus Patriarcha, that is universal Patriarch. Against which title not of patriarch but of universal Patriarch, both Pelagius and Gregory at that time bishops of Rome, the one succeeding the other, did earnestly writ, and this is the true meaning of that Canon. Ignatius immediately after the Apostles time calleth a Bishop principem sacerdotum, Ignatius epist. ad Smirn. Ambros. in. 4. Eph. the Prince of priests, or chief Priest: and so doth Ambrose in the fourth add Ephesios'. But this they do not attribute to any one as having universal authority over all, but to every bishop in respect of such as be under him. Touching the bishop of Constantinople, your are deceived very much, and declare in him the same unskilfulness that you have done in the other. For it is evident that he required this name and title of universal Patriarch ambitiously as being desirous to be superior to all the Patriarches in the world. This to be true Distinct. 99 is manifest by the decree of pelagius Distinct. 99 Canon Nullus. And by the Epistles of Gregory written purposely of that matter. Neither do I read in any approved author to the contrary. Again you are deceived greatly in the Council. For though the bishop of Constantinople did challenge in the Council of Chalcedon the right of ordering metropolitans in those places, yet doth he not in that Council challenge the title of universal Patriarch, which notwithstanding was offered to the bishop of Rome in that Council of Chalcedon, but first given to the Patriarch of Constantinople, in the second Council of Constantinople: or as it is termed in the book of Con. tom. 2. Counsels, the fift, because it was the fiftegenerall Council, as it may appear in the same council. Moreover whereas you say, that the Bishop of Constantinople required that he might ordain Bishops in Asia. etc. if you mark the words diligently, you shall perceive that he required therein nothing but according to the sixth Canon of the Council of Nice, which is also there alleged for that purpose: but I have showed before how the Bishop of Rome made this challenge of universality in effect, and indeed, even in that Council of Carthage, where this Canon by you alleged is, and therefore I need not stand any longer upon this point. Chap. 2. the. 29. Division. Answer to the Admonition Page. 66. Sect. 6. 7. 8. &. Page. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Damasus calleth Stephen an Archdeacon. Archdeacon's Jerome in his epistle ad Euagrium hath this name Archdeacon. Sextus in his decrees saith that Laurence the Martyr was an Archdeacon. Sozomenus lib. 7. cap. 19 maketh mention of an Archdeacon reading the scriptures. Socrates in the seventh book of his ecclesiastical history speaketh of one Timothy an Archdeacon. T. C. Pag. 72. Sect. 5. 6. 7. For to prove the lawfulness of the name of an Archdeacon, the antiquity, the necessity of it, the testimonies of (a) four are brought, which neither speak of their lawfulness nor of their necessity, (*) T. C. f eth in his account, and telleth but four, for five. and they say not indeed so much as god save them, and two of these witnesses are Popes, whereof the first and best, ordained that if the Metropolitan did not fetch his pall at the apostolic see of Rome within three months after he be consecrated, that then he should loose his dignity, as (b) In what part of Gratian. Gratian witnesseth in the decrees that he ascribeth unto Damasus. I doubt not therefore that this is but a forger upon whom you would father the Archdeacon: For that Damasus in whose place you put this forger lived Anno. 387. at what time the see of Rome had no such tyranny as this and other things which are fathered of him do pretend. And if this be enough to prove Archdeacon's I can with better witness prove subdeacons, Acoluthes, exorcists, lectors, ostiarios, these doth Ensebius make mention of, an (c) This is untrue, for Sixtuis more ancient. ancienter writer than any you bring: and out of Ruffian, Theodorete, Sozomene, Socrates. etc. monks almost in every page, and hereupon it is more lawful for me to conclude, that monks, subdeacons, exorcists, acoluthes, ostiarij, lectores, are necessary ecclesiastical orders in the Church, as you conclude the necessity of the Archdeacon. I perceive you care not whether the Archdeacon fall or not, that you bestow so little cost of him, and leave him so nakedly. And if I would be but half so bold in (d) What have you else but conjectures? comectures and divinations as you are, I could say that this sleight handling of the Archdeacon, and sweeting so much about the Archbishop, is there upon, that you would be loath to come from being Deane to be an Archdeacon, and you live in some hope of being Archbishop: but I will not enter so far: and surely for any thing that I see, you might have trussed up the Archbishop as short as you do the Archdeacon, for they stand upon one pin, and those reasons which establish the one establish the other. Whereupon also cometh to pass that all those reasons which were before alleged against the Archbishop, may be drawn against the Archdeacon. Io. Whitgifte. The untoward dealing of the replier, & his unsufficient answer. My purpose in that place is (as you might have seen if you would) to prove that the names of Archbyshops' Archdeacon. etc. be not Antichristian names, that is, names invented by antichrist, but most ancient, for those be my very words, & as I have proved that to be most true in metrapolitans and archbishops, by showing that they were in the Church, before the Pope was Antichrist, so I do the like of Archdeacon's. And where I have brought in five witnesses, you say I have brought in four. Damasus, Jerome, Sixtus, Sozomene and Socrates be in number five, and of these five you have answered only two, and that after your usual manner, by rejecting the Authors. What is falsely attributed to Damasus in other matters is no answer to this, that he reporteth of Archdeacon's, which also the third century allegeth as true. And though he were Bishop of Rome, yet was he a virtuous, learned, and godly Bishop. So was Sixtus in like manner, who lived Bishop of Rome Anno. 265. So that Damasus was neither the first nor the best. For Sixtus was martyred for the Gospel, so was not Damasus. They speak as much for Archdeacon's as I require, that is that their names were not invented by Antichrist: and if there were then no such tyranny in the Church of Rome, as you here mislike, and yet this name in that Church, it is not like to be a tyrannical name. But I marvel you will deal so barely in this matter, knewing that Jerome, who lived in Damasus his time, hath this name Archdeacon oftener than twice or thrice. Without doubt you do not well consider what you writ. This Answer of yours was never as yet approved of any learned man. For what if Eusebius make mention of Subdeacons, Acoluthes. etc. which were peradventure profitable offices in the Church at that time, doth it therefore follow that it is unlawful to have Archdeacon's? I conclude no necessity of the Archdeacon, but I conclude his antiquity, and because you cannot answer that, you fall to scoffing and unseemly jesting as your manner is, and so do you shifted off three of my witnesses. Chap. 2. the. 30. Division. T. C. Pag. 72. lin. 2. &. Sect. 1 Having therefore before proved the unlawfulness of them, I will here set down the difference between those Archdeacon's that were in times past, and those which are now, whereby it may appear they are nothing like but in name. They were no ministers as appeareth in (*) Untruth, no such thing appeareth. Sozomene, ours are. Io. Whitgifte. What one reason have you used to prove the unlawfulness of them. If you mean such reasons as you have against archbishops, they be fully answered. Not one word is there in the seventh book and nineteenth Chapter of Sozomene to prove that Archdeacon's either than were not, or now may not be ministers. For all that he speaketh in that chapter is this. And this also is a strange thing in the Church of Alexandria, while the Gospels are a reading, the Bishop doth not rise up, which I have hard of others. This holy book a Monk that is an Archdeacon readeth there, in other places Deacons: in many Churches the priests only: but in principal feasts Bishops. How you can conclude that Archdeacon's were not then ministers by any thing here spoken, surely I know not, for if you mean, because he says that in some churches only Priests did read, you can no more thereof conclude that Archdeacon's were then no Priests, than you may that they were no Deacons, or that Bishops be no Priests, neither is it necessary that they should be now ministers, it is sufficient if they be Deacons: yet may they be ministers and meet it is that they should so be, and you cannot prove the contrary. Chap. 2. the. 31. Division. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 2. They were tied to a certain Church, and were called Archdeacon of such a congregation or Con. Vrbinum. Sozo. 7. lib. cap. 19 Church, ours are tied to none, but are called Archdeacon's of such a shire. Io. Whitgifte. There is no other words in that book and chap. of Sozomene touching Archdeacon's, than these which I have before recited: what they make for your purpose let the reader judge. Your Vrbanum Concilium is very obscure, for there is none such to be found in all the volumes of Counsels. But to put you out of doubt, we have no Archdeacon's, but such as be tied to one Church, though they have the names sometimes of the Shire, wherein their jurisdiction lieth. Chap. 2. the. 32. Division. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 3 jerom. to Euagri. They were choose by all the deacons of the Church where they be Archdeacon's, ours are appointed by one man, and which is no Deacon. Io. Whitgifte. There can be no such custom gathered of hierom's words in that place, only he using an example to declare what the manner of choosing their Bishop was in the Church of Alexandria says, that they elected one from among themselves whom they placing in an higher room called him a Bishop, as if the soldiers should choose their captain, or Deacons should choose one of them whom they know to be painful, and name him archdeacon. You can no more hereof conclude, that it was then usual for deacons to choose their Archdeacon, than you may that it was also usual for soldiers to choose their captain: neither can you here by prove that our Archdeacon's are not like unto there's (if this were true) no more than you can, that our Captains are not like unto there's, because the Soldiers do not choose them. But what created matter is it, if they were then choose by Deacons and be not so now? and doth not the Bishop appoint them and is not the Bishop more than a Deacon? Chap. 2. the. 33. Division. Con. Nicen can. 14. and after Ruf. 20 T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 4. They were subject to the minister of the word, ours are above them, and rule over them. Io. Whitgifte. There is not one word of Archdeacon's in the fourtaenth Canon of the Council of Nice, nor in the 20. after Ruffian, and therefore you do but abuse the reader. That which is in that place is spoken of Deacons only, and is at this day observed in this Church. Chap. 2. the. 34. Division. Untruths, for neither of them speaketh of Atchdeacons' in those places alleged to this purpose. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 5. jerom. ad evag. Aug. quaest. novi & vet. teit. q. 101. It was counted to them great arrogancy if they preferred themselves to any minister or elder of the Church: ours will not take the best ministers of the Church as their equals. If therefore Archdeacon's will have any benefit by the Archdeacon's of old time, it is meet they should content themselves with that place which they were in. Io. Whitgifte. No such thing is in that epistle of Jerome: only he speaketh of deacons, touching that matter, whom he also showeth in the Church of Rome to have been in certain points preferred before ministers, neither is there one word of Archdeacon's in that book of Augustine's, but only of Deacons. You must learn to make a distinction betwixt an Archdeacon and a Deacon, and not to make the reader believe that the authors you quote in the margente, speak of Archdeacon's, when they only speak of Deacons. My witnesses how few so ever they be, are sufficient to withstand this cowardly assault of yours, wherein there is neither strength nor truth. Chap. 2. the. 35. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 67. Sect. 3 Augustine in his first book de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae, maketh mention of Deans. Deans, and their offices. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 6. As for the office of a deane, as it is used with us it is therefore (*) Untruths. unlawful, for that he being minister, hath (*) Untruths. noseverall charge or Congregation appointed wherein he may exercise his ministery, and (*) Untruths. for that he is ruler and as it were master of divers other ministers in his College, which likewise have no several charges of congregations, and for that (which is most intolerable) both he himself oftentimes having a several Church or benefice (as they call it,) is under the colour of his deaneship absent from his Church, and suffereth also those that are underneath him, to be likewise absent from their Churches. And whereas M. Doctor allegeth S. Augustine to prove this office to be ancient: indeed the name is there found, but besides the name, not one property of that deane which we have. For Augustine speaking of the monks of those days, saith that the money which they gate with the labour of their hands, they gave to their deane, which did provide them meat and drink and clot and all things necessary for them: So that their monks should not be drawn away from their studies and meditations, through the care of worldly things: So that this Dean which he speaketh of, was servant and steward and cater to the Monks, and therefore only called Deane, because he was steward and cater to ten Monks. Now let it be seen what Augustine's deane maketh for the deane which is there's, and what faith and trust M. Doctor useth, in reciting of the old fathers. Io. Whitgifte. All this is but your own sansies taken for principles and grounds. For first it is untrue that every Minister must of necessity have some several Tractat. 4. charge, as I have declared before. Secondly it is as untrue, that a Deane hath no several charge or congregation, wherein to exercise his ministery. For there is no Cathedral Church without a congregation and charge. The third that followeth, is builded of the same grounds that these two first be, and may as well be spoken against the masterships of such Colleges in the universities, wherein any preachers or ministers be maintained. Which argueth that you mean the same to Colleges that you do to Cathedral Churches, and that you would have ministers free from subjection. Last of all, that which you say is most intellerable, you speak without any tolerable reason: For Master Deane and his Prebendaries do more good both in the Church of England generally, and in their several Churches particularly, and take more pains in one month, than you and your companions (whereof some notwithstanding are content without doing any duty at all, to enjoy prebends more than one) in one whole year. And if either Master Deane or the Prebendaries neglect their duties, there be superiors and laws to reform them. The place of Augustine proveth the name of a Dean: it proveth a College and society, whereof he is Deane: it argueth a superiority and government, for he says they be called Decani, ideò quòd sint denis praepositi, Deans, because they are set over ten: it showeth an office to care and provide for them, and see that they have all things necessary: it declareth daily exercise of praying and teaching: for he addeth thus. Conueniunt autem diei tempore extremo de suis quisque habitaculis, dum adhuc ieiuni sunt, ad audiendum illum patrem, & conveniunt ad singulos patres terna ad minimum hominum milia: Nam etiam multò numerosiores sub uno agunt. They come together at night every man from his lodging whilst yet they are fasting, to hear that father: and they Aug. de moribus ecclesiae. come together to every father, three thousand men at the lest, for a great meinie more live under one. etc. Now sir if God of his singular goodness hath to the great and unspeakable benefit of his Church, moved the hearts of princes and men of wealth, so to endue such places with possessions and revenues, that they having things necessary provided for them, may bestow that time in studying, praying, preaching, and other godly exercises, which these that Saint Augustine speaketh of, did in labouring with their hands, is Master Deans name or office ever the worse? howsoever it pleaseth you to term these companies, that Saint Augustine here speaketh of: Yet were they Godly societies, and do very aptly set forth the utility, and the antiquity of Churches and Colleges: the Deans and Masters whereof, have indeed the chief and special care of all external things pertaining to them, whether it be lands, provisions, or any thing else that is necessary: And therefore the liker to Saint Augustine's Dean, and the place more aptly alleged to prove the antiquity of this name and office. If Master Doctor should use no more faith in reciting the Doctors than you do, I would he were whipped at the cross in Cheap. Chap. 2. the. 36. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page 67. Sect. 4. Nytherto Antichrist had not invaded the Church of Rome. But what should I trouble you with any more authorities? those that be learned may easily understand that these names Metropolitan, Archbishop, Archdeacon, Primate, Patriarch, and such like, be most ancient and approved of the elder, best, and worthiest councils, fathers, and writers. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 7. And unto the end that these testimonies might be more authentical, and have some weight in them, Master Doctor addeth, that hitherto Antichrist had not invaded the seat of Rome. You shall have much a do to prove that Antichrist had not invaded the sce of Rome, when your Clement Anaclete, Anicete, and Damasus written: nay it is most certain, that then he had possessed it: but what is that to the purpose, although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted up, yet corruption of doctrine & of the sacraments, hurtful ceremonies, dominion & pomp of the Clergy, new orders, & functions of the ministery, which were the hands that pulled him, the feet which brought him, the shoulders that lifted and heaved him up into that seat, were in the Church. Neither while you do thus speak, do you seem to remember, that this monster needed not nine months, but almost nine hundred years, to be framed and fashioned, or ever he could with all his parts be brought to light. And although the lover of this Antichristian building were not set up: yet the foundations thereof being secretly and under the ground laid in the Apostles time: you might easily know that in those times that you spoke of, the building was wonderfully advanced & grown very high, and being a very dangerous thing to ground any order or policy of the Church upon men at all, which in deed aught to have their standing upon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles, I will show, what great injury M. Doctor doth, to sand us for our examples and patterns of government to these times which he doth dicette us unto. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words, the same might be also spoken of the Apostles times. For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist said, Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work: And S. john said that there then began to be many Antichrist's: but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time? or shall we therefore refuse to take such examples of it, as is convenient for our time? There is no man of learning and modesty which will without manifest proof condemn any order, especially touching the government of the Church, that was used and allowed during the time of the primitive Church, which was the next. 500 years after Christ, within the which time, most of my authorities are contained. Neither was there any function or office brought into the Church during all that time, allowed by any general Council or credible writer, which was not most meet for that time, and allowable by the word of God. I grant that Antichrist was working all this time, and grew more and more, for else could there never have been so many sects and heresies from time to time spread in the Church, which was the cause of so many singular and notable Counsels, so many profitable and necessary books, written by such learned and godly Doctors, as did with might and main strive against them. Out of the which Counsels and fathers, and best witnesses what was done in those times, I have fetched my proofs: even out of them (I say) that did with might and main labour to keep out Antichrist from the possession of the Church, and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist. I know that those sects and heresies gave strength unto antichrist, and at the length were one special means of placing him in his throne, even as I am also persuaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious people. that he worketh as effectually at this day by your stirs and contentions, whereby he hath and will more prevail against this Church of England, than by any other means whatsoever. Therefore it behoveth you to take heed, how you divide the army of Christ, which should unanimiter fight against that Antichrist. As for us we must follow the examples of those good fathers, and labour, accordingly to restore unity, and to preserve it. Chap. 2. the. 37. Division. T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. ult. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth, the as long as the Apostles lived, the Church remained a pure virgin, for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached, they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the dark, and as it were digging underneath the earth. But after the death of the Apostles, and that generation was passed, which God vouchsafed to hear the divine wisdom with their own ears, than the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church. Io. Whitgifte. It is evident in diverse places of the Scripture, namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the church in the Apostles time. Corinthians, and the Epistle to the Galath, that there were many gross and great corruptions openly professed in the Church, by diverse, not only in manners, but also in doctrine, even in the Apostles time, and Eusebius himself declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idem. Lib. 3. was one Simon mentioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresy, Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewise he showeth Lib. 3. that Ebion, Cerinthus, and the Nicholaites, all horrible heretics were in the Apostles time. Wherefore if this be a good reason, then is it not safe for us to follow, not not the Apostles time. Chap. 2. the. 38. Division. T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1 Element also in a certain place, to confirm that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat. somewhat after the be beginning. after the Apostles time, allegeth the proverb that there are few sons like their fathers. Io. Whitgifte. I can find no such thing in Clement, but the matter is not great whether he say so or no. The argument is stark nought: for if this follow, that we may take no example, pattern, or testimony of government, out of that time, because it was corrupt, then by the same reason must we not take examples of any time, not not out of the Apostles time, because that was also corrupt as I have said. Your arguments be passing strong, surely I marvel with what boldness you writ them. Chap. 2. the. 39 Division. T. C. Page. 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates saith of the Church of Rome and Alexandria, which were the most famous Li. 7. . 11. Churches in the Apostles times, that about the year. 430. the Roman and Alexandrian Bishops (*) Socrates' fall fied. leaving the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion, whereupon we see, that it is safe for us to go to the Scriptures, and to the Apostles times, for to fetch our government and order: and that it is very dangerous to draw from those rivers the fountains whereof, are troubled and corrupted, especially when as the ways whereby they run are muddier and more fenny, than is the head itself. Io. Whitgifte. You falsify the words of Socrates, for thus be saith, For even till that time the novatians flourished marvelously at Rome, and had many Churches and had gathered Socra. lib. 7. Cap. 11. much people. But envy took hold of them, when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria now a good while was passed beyond the limits of Priesthood to an outward Dominion. He saith not leaving the sacred function, were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion, as you translate it. But why doth Socrates burst out into this reprehension of them, even because Socrates a favourer of the novatians. Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. &. lib. 9 13. they expelled the Novatian heretics, of whom Socrates was a fautor, as it may appear in Nicephorus, wherefore he dothein that place affectionately, and unjustly reprove both the Bishop of Rome, and Alexandria, for stoutly resisting those heretics and expelling them from their Churches, especially they now increasing to so great a multitude, as it may seem by Socrates' words they did. And although the words of Socrates which I have already recited justify this to be true, yet doth his words following declare the same more evidently. For he commends the Bishop of Constantinople because he friendly interteyned the novatians, & suffered them quietly to remain within the City, and yet it is certain, that the Bishop of Constantinople, had as large authority as the Bishop of Alexandria, wherefore Socrates in this point is no more to be believed against those Bishops, than you are against the Socrates doings agreeable to our time. bishops in this Church, whose authority you malign upon the like occasion. Chap. 2. the. 40. Division. T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become. although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason, nor Council wherein there is either name of Archbishop, or Archdeacon, or proved that there may be: And although he show not so much as the name of them four hundred years after our saviour Christ. And although where he showeth them, they be either by sergeant authors, or without any word (b) Would you have better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that decrees for th' authority, and continual 〈◊〉 I'll. of approbation of good authors: yet as though he had showed all and proved all, having showed nothing nor proved nothing, he clappeth the hands to himself, and putteth the crown upon his own head, saying, that those that be learned may easily understand, that the names Archbishop, Archdeacon, Primate, Patriarch, be most ancient, and approved of the elder, best, worthiest Counsels, fathers, writers: and a little afterward, that they are unlearned and ignorant which say otherwise. Here is (c) Vanity. a victory blown with a great and sounding trumpet, that myghtè have been piped with an oh en straw, and if it should be replied again, that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading, and less judgement, there might grow controversies without all fruit. Io. Whitgifte. If I were not acquainted with this spirit, it would make me muse at such evident and manifest untruths, joined with so profane jests and taunts. If I had alleged no more authorities but only the Council of Nice, it had been sufficient to have disproved this so bold assertion of yours. But seeing I have alleged other testimonies also, which evidently prove my purpose, I must needs think you not to be a man that greatly careth for your own credit, but if you think they are few, & therefore account them for none, I have now I trust in this Chapter. 25. Division supplied their want, and made up the number. What Scriptures I have appeareth afterwards. It is sufficient if I find there the office of an Archbishop, as I doubt not but I shall, and therefore I say again, that to doubt of the antiquity of these names and offices, argueth great penury of reading the ancient writers. Chap. 2. the. 41. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the original and beginning of these names Metropolitan, Archbishop, Archdeacon, Primate, Patriarch, and such like (such is their antiquity) cannot be found so far as I have read, it is to be supposed they have their original from the Apostles themselves. For as I remember S. Augustine hath this rule in his August. 118. Epist. ad januar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition observed of the whole Church, come either from the Apostles or from general Counsels, as the observing of Easter, the celebrating of the day of the ascension, and of the coming of the holy Ghost, & such like. Very unlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirm that these names used in the purest time of the church, be Antichristian. T. C. Page. 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops' beginning is unknown, in stead of a (a) Modesty. bastard which some brought into the Church, that hide themselves because they were ashamed of the child, he will make us believe that we have a new Melchisedech, without father, without mother, & whose generation is not known, and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine, as far as he remembreth, in the. 118. Epistle to januarie, that the original of them is from the Apostles themselves. Here (b) This is fro the matter. M. Doctor seemeth to seek after some glory of a good memory, as though he had net Augustine by him when he written this sentence, and yet he marvelously forgetteth himself, for he used this place before in his. 23. Page, and citeth it there precisely and absolutely, where also I have showed, how unadvisedly that sentence of Augustine is approved: and how that thereby a window is open to bring in all Popery, & whatsoever other corrupt opinions. That the names of Lords and honour as they are used in this Realm, are not meet to be given to the Ministers of the Gospel, there hath been spoken before. Io. Whitgifte. This place of Augustine is of greater force and credit with those that be learned, than that it can be shifted off. I have answered whatsoever you say against it in that place, and showed of what credit it is with some famous writers of our time, namely with Master Zuinglius, Master Caluine, and Master Gualther. And surely I think no learned man doth descent from them. Your jests are to usual and unseemly for a Divine, especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal. I might have said also of you, that you sought after some glory of a good memory, when as you used the like kind of speech, in alleging of Gildas and Lombard, Pag. 68 but that I am not delighted with such kind of eloquence. Pag. 68 Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter, Earl, County Palatine, Honour, high commissioner, justice of peace and Quorum, Civil offices given to ecclesiastical people. being necessary offices in this common weal, partly for the honour of the Prince and Realm but especially for good government of all estates and degrees of people, be Antichristian, let those consider to whom God hath committed the sword of government: such insolent audacity against states and lawful regiment, is rather to be corrected with due punishment, than confuted by argument. T. C. Page. 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter, if it be a needful office, there are enough to execute it besides the Ministers, which for as much as they be appointed to watch over the souls of men, purchased with the blood of Christ, all men understand that it is not meet that they should attend upon the body, much less upon the leg, and lest of all upon the Garter. It is not unlawful for Princes to have Ministers of their honour, but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appointed for another end, to use to such purposes. Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor keepeth his old wont, of (*) Untruth. manifest perverting of the words and meaning of the authors of the Admonition. For whereas they say that the name of Earl, County Palatine, justice of peace and Quorum, Commissioner, are Antichristian, when they are given to the ministers of the Church, whose calling will not agreed with such titles, he concludeth simply, that they say they be altogether unlawful, and simply antichristian, as if I should reason, that it is not meet that the Queen's Majesty should preach or minister the Sacraments, therefore it is not meet that there should be any preaching or Ministering of the Sacraments. Now letting pass all your hard words and unbrotherly speeches, with your uncharitable prognostications, and cold prophecies, I will come to examine, whether you have any better hap in proving the office, than you have had in proving the name. Io. Whitgifte. I see no cause why he that is prelate of the garter, may not also sufficiently discharge his duty in watching over the soul, for I think the garter doth not require such continual or great attendance. Those that are appointed to watch over the soul are not exempted from bodily service to their Prince, except you will take from the Prince, not only authority in Ecclesiastical matters, as you have done, but over Ecclesiastical people also, as by this and such other like assertions you seem to do▪ But hear of more in place. I pervert not the words of the Admonition, as appeareth by their manifest words: what their meaning is God knoweth. But how little authority these offices should have, if your plat form were framed, shall be declared when I come to your signiory: neither the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince, that detesteth Antichrist, can be called Antichristian, upon whom soever they be bestowed. Whereunto this your example tendeth of the queens Majesty, wise men may easily conjecture. It smelleth of that Papistical cavillation, Scilicet that we give to her Majesty authority to preach and to administer the sacraments, because we acknowledge her lawful authority in Ecclesiastical causes. I pray God my prognostications be not to true: the more I consider of your book, the more I am driven to suspect it. My hard speeches be within the bonds of modesty, but yours may better beseem the order you talk of, than a man of your profession. Chap. 2. the. 43. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 68 Sect. 1. 2. lords Grace, Lordbishop, honour. etc. be names of reverence, teaching us to acknowledge our duty towards our superiors, and their authority over us. And it is much more to be reprehended, not to give honour to whom honour is due, then to receive honour when it is due. You may and you please in very ancient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian. great learned fathers, see as honourable and reverent titles given unto Bishops as these be. And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles, not ambitiously sought for, but orderly and lawfully given according to the condition and state of the place wherein a man is. But it is Antichristian, that is proud, presumptuous, disdainful, arrogant, and contemptuous, to refuse to give to every one that name and title that by law, civility, and duty of us is required, and expresseth our reverence, duty, and obedience. You would speak as much of names of honour and reverence in other people if you durst be so bold with them, as you think you may be with some. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing is said to this. The offices of Archbishops, etc, are not strange or unheard of in Christ's Church: and of superiority among the Clergy. Chap. 3. the first Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 68 Sect. 3. 4. & Pag. 69. Sect. 1 Now it followeth to prove that the offices signified by these names are not strange and unheard of in Christ's Church, neither yet plainly in God's word forbidden, that they are not to be removed, but as most necessary to be retained. It is without all doubt that both these names and offices have Antiquity of the offices. been in Christ's Church, long before Nicene Council, and that they have had in the same continuance even to this day: as partly if may be gathered by that which I have spoken before, and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Council of nice to this instant hour: and therefore they little considered what they writ, when they set it down that these names and offices were strange and unheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning ancient writers never read them, & that is the cause of such unlearned assertions. T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1 And whereas in the former treatise of the name of the Archbishop, he blew the trumpet before the victory: here in this of the office he bloweth it before he cometh into the field, or striketh one stroke, saying that they little consider what they writ, that they are contemners of ancient writers and that they never read them, and that they are unlearned which deny these things which he affirmeth. Well what we read & how unlearned we are, is not the matter which we strive for, the judgement thereof is first with God▪ then with the Churches, and in their judgements we are content to rest. But if you be so greatly learned, and we so unlearned and smally read, than the truth of our cause shall more appear that is maintained with so small learning and reading, against men of such profound knowledge & great reading. And yet I know not why if we be not tooidle, we should not be able to read as much as you, which may have leisure to read a good long writer, or ever you can ride only to see and salute your houses and livings, being so many and so far distant one from an other. And if we be so unlearned and hold such dangerous opinions of Papistry and anabaptism, as you bear men in hand we do, why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germany, procure a public disputation, where you may both win your spurs and such detestable opinions with the ignorance of the authors, may be displayed unto the whole world? But let us hear what is said. Io. Whitgifte. I have said nothing of the authors of the Admonition, which their own doings proveth not to be true, and if you will also take it unto yourself, who can let you. If notwithstanding all my journeys to see and salute my houses and livings, I be found to discharge my duty there, and also to have read as much as you, that have such leisure, it is at the lest an argument that I am not idle. I love not to boast of myself. Your too too arrogant and contemptuous speeches provoke me further than modesty requireth. I am not ashamed of my reading, and yet I will make no comparisons. I have sundry times both privately and publicly, as I am able to prove by sufficient Conference offered hath been refused. testimonies, and you cannot deny, offered you conference by writing of these matters, I have earnestly moved you unto it, and you have always refused it. This had been a quiet and the best and most assured way: for litera scripta manet, That which is set down in writing remains. Howbeit I refuse no way that shall be thought convenient to the Magistrate, neither am I afraid of your stout brags, for I know what substance is in you: but yet by the way this may be noted, what you bunt after and seek for, when you refuse private conference by writing offered unto you, and cry out for public disputation: scilicet popularem laudem, popular praise: But therein do you follow the vain brags of other sectaries. etc. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 69. Sect. 2. 3. &. Pag. 70. Sect. 1 Cyprianus Lib. 1. Epist. 3. ad Cornelium speaking of the office of an Archbishop, Of the office of an Archbishop. saith on this sort, Neque enim aliunde haereses obortae sunt, aut na ta schismata, quàm inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur, nec unus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos, & ad tempus judex vice Christi cogitatur, cui si secundum magisteria divina obtemperaret fraternitas universa, nemo adversus sacerdotum collegium quicquam moveret: Neither have heresies or schisms risen of any other occasion, than of that, that the Priest of God is not obeyed, neither one Priest for the time in the Church, and one judge for the time in the stead of Christ thought upon, to whom if the whole brotherhood would be obedient, according to Gods teaching, no man would move any thing against the College of Priests. Cornelius being Bishop of Rome, and having excommunicated Cyprian expounded. certain notorious wicked men, and afterward being threatened and ill used at their hands, began to faint and to be weary of his office: Cyprian hearing thereof, written comfortably unto him, and willed him in any wise to proceed, she wing further what sects and schisms ensueth in any Province or Diocese, whereas the Bishop's authority is despised. For in these words he speaketh not of the usurped authority of the Bishop of Rome over all Churches, but against the insolency of some, which despising their Metropolitan, or archbishop, did with their factiousness trouble the Church. For he would have an archbishop in every Province, which should bear the chief rule over the rest of the Clergy, and so do the godlyest and best learned expound Cyprian. The same Cyprian writing to one Florentius Pupianus, speaking authority of Archbishops. in his own behalf being Bishop of Carthage, saith on this sort: unde schismata & haereses obortae sunt & oriuntur, nisi dum Episcopus qui unus est, & ecclesiae praeest, superba quorundam praesumptione contemnitur, & homo dignatione Dei honoratus, ab hominibus indignis judicatur? From whence have heresies and schisms sprung heretofore, and whereof spring they now, but that the Bishop which is one, and governeth the Church, by the presumpivous disdain of certain is despised, and a man preferred by God's allowance, is examined and judged by unworthy men. For it is the chief and principal office of an Archbishop to keep unity in the Church to compound contentions, to redress heresies, schisms, factions, to see that Bishops, and all other of the Clergy which be under him do their duty. etc. T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 2. 3. Cyprian (saith he) speaking of the office of an archbishop. etc. (*) This is rather to make sport, than to confute Unless (good Reader) thou wilt first believe that Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop, and haste before concerned a strong imagination of it, M. Doctor can prove nothing. Aristotle saith▪ that uncumming painters writ the names of the beasts which they paint in their tables, for because otherwise it could not be known what they paint: So M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbishop will not be known by his description, writeth first the name of that he will paint out. This is it which we strive about, whereof the controversy is, and this M. Doctor taketh for granted. He accuseth the authors of the Admonition for faulting in the petition of the principle, or desiring to have that granted which is denied, and yet I am sure that in the whole Admonition there is not such a gross petition as this is. Where or in what words doth S. Cyprian speak of the office of an Archbishop? Io. Whitgifte. It is the chief and principal office of the archbishop, to provide that peace and The principal office of an archbishop. unity be kept in the Church, to suppress schisms and heresies. etc. This doth Cyprian in this place signify in plain words. That he means of an Archbishop and Metropolitan, though he express not the name, it is evident by his words: for in the first place he speaketh of Cornelius, then Bishop of Rome, who had government over that whole Province. And in the second place he speaketh of himself, who had a very ample and large jurisdiction. For being Cyprian a Metropolitan. Bishop of Carthage, he had the charge & oversight of the Churches in Africa, in Numidia, and in both the Mauritanies', as he himself doth testify. lib. 4. Epist. 8▪ And as I have before showed out of Gregory Nazianzene, he did not only rule the Church of Carthage, but also of Africa, of Spain, and almost of the whole East Cap. 2. diui. 25 parts: for the which cause Illyricus as I also said before, doth call him Metropolitan. And therefore I have truly affirmed, that in those places he speaketh of the office of a Metropolitan or Archbishop: neither is this a petition of the principle: but a true principle: but it is strange to see how you forget yourself, for afterwards in the. 95. page of your book, you acknowledge that Cyprian was a Metropolitan Pag. 95. sec. 2. Bishop, which sufficiently justifieth my second place out of Cyprian. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 75 Sect▪ 3. And here by the way it is to be observed of the Reader, how near a kin the pope and the Archbishop be. For this office is confirmed by the same (a) Truly. places that the (b) Falsely. pope's is. The places and arguments which are brought against him are soluted with the same solutions that they use which maintain the Papacy. For these places of Cyprian be alleged for the pope's supremacy, and (c) In deed you know this is untrue. in deed they make as much for the pope as the Archbishop. For although they be two heads, yet they stand upon one neck, and therefore the reform Churches which cut right did strike them both of at one blow. Io. Whitgifte. This argueth either wilful ignorance, or professed malice: for you can not but know that Cyprian means of the subjection that aught to be given to Cornelius in his own Province, and that the Papists wrist the same to prove his universal jurisdiction over all Christendom. Now if a man may not allege that truly, according to the true sense and meaning of the author, which the Papists abuse to serve their turn, then must we abstain from alleging divers places of the Scripture. It is true that the Papists use this place for the Pope's supremacy, but falsely: for Cyprian only means of the superiority of a Metropolitan or Bishop in his Province or Diocese. And the Papists themselves have given over their hold, that they took of those places of Cyprian, confessing that he meant of every several Bishop in his own Diocese or Province, as appeareth in Dormans & Harding'S latter books, and others. And is this kind of reason so near a kin to the Papists, which utterly overthroweth one of their strongest arguments? Surely I marvel that your desire is so much to writ against the person, that in the mean time you neglect the common cause, and give strength as much as lieth in you to the reason of the adversary, whilst you say, that this place maketh as much for the Pope, as it doth for the Archbishop. But the truth of this your Reply shall appear, when I have answered your other cavils. Chap. 3. the. 4. Division. T. C. Page. 75. Sect. 3 In neither of the sentences here alleged out of Cyprian, nor in all his works as hath been before noted, is there one word of an Archbishop, and yet M. Doctor saith, that he speaketh of an Archbishop: before he showed the name without the office, and now he goeth about to show the office without the name: so that he can never make both the name and the office meet together. To shape out an Archbishop here, you must needs interpret the words Bishop and priest, Archbishop and high priest: for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministery in those places, and if you may have this scope of interpreting, it will not be hard for you to prove that stones be bread, and that chalk is cheese. Io. Whitgifte. Epiphanius lib. 2 tom. 2. haer. 69. doth call the Bishop of Alexandria sometime Bishop, Epiphanius. Concil. Calc. and sometime Archbishop. The Council of Calceden in like manner calleth the same men, as Flavianus, Dioscorus, Leo, & other, sometimes Bishops, and sometimes Archebishops: the like is to be seen in other authors and writers. So that the omitting of the title is no reason at all to disprove the thing. It is certain that in Cyprians time, this name Papa was a common name to many Bishops, those especially that were of fame, as M. Fox at large declareth, tom. 1. fol. 11. And yet doth not Cyprian use that title commonly when he writeth to Cornelius, or to any other Bishop. This therefore is but a feeble argument. Chap. 3. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page. 75. Sect. 3 Let us see what is a Bishop or Priest, I use the name of priest against my will, but because it is sacerdos, and you so translate it, that it may better be understanded what I answer to you, I am content to follow you so far. I say, let us consider what is a Bishop or priest by S. Cyprian, and thereby we shall know what an Archbishop he setteth forth unto us, which thing may appear manifestly, by that which he saith in the same Epistle, that the Bishop that is appointed into the place of him that is dead, is choose peaceably, by the voyee of all the people. (*) A cavil. I think you will not say, that all the people throughout the whole Province, or throughout a whole Diocese (as we count a Diocese) met together, for that had been both a great disorder and confusion, a great charge to the Church, and in the time of persecution as that was, to have offered the whole Church in all the province into the mouth of the wolf. Io. Whitgifte. If you had read Ecclesiastical histories, than should you understand that the metropolitans and Bishops of every Province and Diocese, were choose in the presence of the people of that place and city, whereof they had their names, and that the consent of no other of the people in that Province or Diocese was required. So Cyprian himself, though he had so ample a charge as I have showed before: yet was he choose only by the people of Carthage. The same is to be seen also in other such elections: and especially of the Bishop of Rome, after that he was in his greatest glory, and therefore this is a poor argument. The Bishop of Rome or of Carthage were choose by the consent of the Citizens only, and not of the people in other places of the Province, Ergo their authority & jurisdiction extended no farther than these Cities: and yet the whole Diocese, that is, the Christians in the Diocese (such I mean as were appointed for that purpose) might have met in that time without peril, or any other such inconvenience as you speak of, for such a purpose, as well as they did in the same time to Synods, which were frequent both in Cyprians time, and before. Chap. 3. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. ult. And lest peradventure you should have this hole to hide yourself in, saying that it might be procured, that in every Church or parish throughout either the Province or Diocesie, the consent of the people might be asked, and they tarry in their places where they dwell, Cyprian in the next Epistle doth put the matter out of all question, saying that the priest (whom he after calleth Bishop) is choose in the presence of the people, & in the eyes of all. So that Cyprians Bishop whom you will needs have an Archbishop, had neither province nor diocese, as we call a diocese, out only a Church orcongregation, such as the ministers & pastors with us, which are appointed unto several towns: which may further appear in that Cyprian saith, that out of (*) Untruth, for Cyprian nameth not a Province. one province there were. 90. Bishops which condemned Privatus. Now if there were. 90. Bishops in one province met, and yet not all that were in that province (as may appear out of the same Epistle) all men do understand, that the scope that Cyprians Bishop or Archbishop, as you will have him, had, was no such thing as a Diocese or a province. I could bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian to prove that the Bishop in his time was nothing else but S. Paul's Bishop, that is, one that had cure and charge of one flock, which was so placed as it might be taught of him, and overseen by him, and governed by him, and of whom in matters pertaining to God it might depend. Io. Whitgifte. Your proofs go very low when you use such slender one's: the words of Cyprian in that Epistle be these: Quod & ipsum videmus de divina authoritate descendere ut 1. Lib. Epi. 4. sacerdos, plebe present, sub omnium oculis delegatur. etc. The which thing we see to descend from the authority of God, that the Priest be choose the people being present before them all. etc. What can you else gather of this, but that a Priest must be choose in presence of the people, and that then he is said to be choose sub omnium oculis, before all their eyes, when he is choose publicly, and openly in the sight of many. But what is this to the strayghtning of his charge? A man might as well reason thus: All the Citizens of Rome were not at Cornelius election, therefore he is not Bishop of all the City of Rome. But to the end that you may understand, the vanity of this your assertion, and that it may appear that Cyprian maketh the Bishop in degree to be above a Priest, & also that at the election of the Bishop of Rome, more were present than those of the City: I will set down his words as they be. Lib. 4. Epist. 2. Cypr. lib. 4. Epist. 2. I come now unto the person of our fellow Cornelius, that you may more truly know him, as well as we, not by the lies of malicious men and backbyters, but by the judgement of God, which made him Bishop, and by the testimony of his fellow Bishops, the whole All the Bishops agreed to Cornelius his election. number whereof through all the world did jointly agreed. For (which thing did greatly commend our well-beloved Cornelius unto God, and to Christ, and his Church, and also to all his fellow ministers) he did not suddenly come to the Bishopric, but being promoted by all the ecclesiastical offices, he ascended to the high dignity of Priesthood, A Bishop above a priest in Cyprians time. by all degrees of religion. Then afterward he neither desired nor would have the Bishopric itself, neither as others use which are puffed up with pride and arrogancy, did he invade the See by force: but being quiet and modest, and such a one as they use to be which are choose unto this place by God, for the moderation of his chaste conscience, and the humbleness of his natural and preserved shame fastness. He did not (as some men do) use violence, that he might be made Bishop, but suffered violence, that he might by Cornelius choose by others, than the Romans. compulsion be driven to receive the Bishopric. And he was made Bishop of many of our fellow Bishops, which were then at Rome, and which sent very honourable and commendable letters unto us of his ordination. But Cornelius was made Bishop by the judgement of God, and his Christ, by the testimony almost of all Clerks, by the suffrages of the people which was then present, and by the College of the ancient Priests, and of good men. In these words first it is to be noted that he saith Cornelius was made Bishop Collections out of Cyprian. by the testimony of his fellow Bishops: Quorum numerus universus per totum mundum concordi unanimitate consensit, The whole number whereof through all the world did jointly agreed▪ Secondly that he was promoted to the high dignity of Priesthood, per omnia ecclesiastica officia & cunctis religionis gradibus: Through all ecclesiastical offices▪ and by all degrees of religion, and then afterward was made Bishop. Thirdly, that Cornelius was made Bishop by the judgement of God and Christ, by the testimony almost of all clerk, and by the suffrages of the people, which was then present, and by the College of ancient Priests, and good men. How far these things differ from your collections, and how far from Cyprians meaning you gather your conjectures, let the Reader judge. I have before sufficiently proved by ancient testimonies, that the Bishop of Rome, Carthage, and other, had not one City only to govern, or one parish, but divers places, whole Provinces and Countries, as Cyprians own words before rehearsed maketh manifest. Wherefore all this you do but speak of pleasure. If you had told me in what place Cyprian saith, that out of one Province there was 90. Bishops that condemned Privatus, I would have said something to it: but seeing you have kept the place secret to yourself, you give your Reader occasion to suspect, either that it is forged, or else not faithfully alleged. If it be that which is lib. 1. epist. 3. then truly antiquum obtines. For these be Cyprians words: Per Foelicianun Cypr. lib. 1. Epist. 3. autem significavi tibi frater, venisse Carthaginem Privatum veterem baereticum, in Pambesitana colonia, ante multos ferè annos, ob multa & gravia delicta. 90. episcopora sententiam condemnatum, antecessorun etiam nostrorum (quod & vestram conscientiam nonlatet) Fabiani & Donati literis severissimè notatum. etc I have signified unto you by Felicianus, that Privatus an old heretic, is come to Carthage, being condemned in the City Pambesia many years since, for many and grievous trespasses, by the sentence of 90. Bishops, and being also most sharply reprehended by the letters of my predecessors Fabianus and Donatus (as your conscience knoweth.) Here is not one word of so many Bishops being in one Province, neither yet any Province or Diocese mentioned wherein they should be. Surely this is too much, so often to offend in falsifying: but be it there were so many Bishops in one province, what conclude you thereof, that Bishops than had but one town or parish limited unto them? As though there be not Provinces of that largeness that they may contain so many Bishops, & yet the several parishes furnished with peculiar pastors. Massaeus lib. 16. saith, that there are. 160. bishoprics subject to the patriarch of Antioch. But there can no such thing as you affirm be gathered of Cyprians words, neither shall you ever be able to prove out of Cyprian, or any other ancient writer, that such Bishops as Cyprian & Cornelius were, had only government of one town, or as we call it, parish: but the contrary is most evident, as I have before declared. Chap. 3. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 1 Furthermore, to shape the Archbishop by these places of Cyprian, you must be driven to expound this word (Church) Province. The Papists which cite this place for the Pope as you do for the Archbishop, they expound the word Church here to be the whole Church universal and Catholic. And in deed although it be falsely expounded so in this place, yet may they do it with more probability and likelihood, than to expound it a Province, for so much as these words (the Church) is oftener read both in the Scripture, and old writers, to signify the whole Church, than any province of one Realm: but let Cyprian expound himself what he means by a Church here, although that may easily appear by that which is spoken of S. Cyprian his Bishop, whereas Cyprian declareth that Cornelius the Bishop of the Church which was in Rome, would not let Felicissimum a Novatian heretic, being cast out by the Bishops of Africa, to enter into the Church, he declareth sufficiently that he means that company of the faithful which were gathered together at Rome, to hear the word, and to communicate at the sacraments. (*) A cavil. For it was not Cornelius part to shut him out of the Province, neither in deed could he himself, being not able without hazard by reason of the persecution that then was, to tarry in any part of the province. Again speaking against the Novatian heretic, he showeth that through his wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen, the confession of faults in the Church was hindered. Now it is manifest that confession was not made throughout the province, but in that particular Church, where the party dwelt that committed the fault. Therefore Cyprian understandeth by the name of the Church, neither Diocese, as we call Diocese, and much less a whole province. And in the same Epistle, speaking of those which had fallen, he saith, that they dared not come so much as to the threshold or entry of the Church, where he also opposeth the Church to the Province, saying that they rove about the Province, and run about to deceive the brethren. Io. Whitgifte. I expound this word (Church) in this place no otherwise than all learned writers expound it, that is, for that province & diocese whereof Cornelius was Bishop, and it is no unaccustomed thing, to call the Church which is extended through a province, by the name of the chief City or Metropolitan seat of the Province, as the Church of Rome all that that is subject to the Bishop of Rome: the Church of Carthage, all that that is belonging to the Bishop of Carthage. And this is truly to expound the places of Cyprian, and may be justified both by examples & authorities, as I have proved before, whereas your interpretation hath no shadow or show of truth. But you had rather justify the Papists interpretation, than seem to relent to the The zeal of the Replier. authority of an Archbishop. Such is your zeal. Cyprians words touching Cornelius dealing with Felicissimus the Novatian, be these: Likewise that thou mightest know of Felicissimus the author of the sedition: Lib. 1. Epist. 3. who also is contained in the letters of our fellow Bishops, written of late unto them, which Felicissimus is not only driven from hence by them, Sed abs te illic nuper de ecclesia nullus est: but is there of late expelled by thee out of the Church. Of these words you gather this argument: Cyprian signifieth that Cornelius had banished Felicissimus from the Church of Rome: Ergo, Cornelius was Bishop but of one Parish or City, or therefore a Church in that place signifieth one only particular congregation gathered together in one Town. What kind of conjectures call you these? And what though Cornelius could not shut him out of the Province? might he not therefore by excommunication seclude him from the congregation of the faithful throughout the Province: Do you think that he forcibly shut him out of the local Church of Rome, or rather dealt with him according to the ecclesiastical Censures? You may delude simple readers that believe whatsoever you say, but such as be able to examine your doings, can not (if they will search) but find passing forgery. Again you say, speaking against the Novatian heretics. etc. Cyprians words touching that matter be these: Quibus etiam non satis fuit ab evangelio recessisse, spem lapsis Ibidem. satisfactionis & poenitentiae sustulisse, fraudibus involutos vel adulterijs commaculatos, & sacrificiorum funesta contagione pollutos, ne Deum rogarent, ne in ecclesia exomologesiu criminum facerent, The Novatian heresy. ab omni sensu & fructu removisse: To whom it was not enough to have departed from the Gospel, to have taken away hope and satisfaction, and repentance from those that have fallen, to have removed from all feeling and fruit of repentance those that are taken in snares, or defiled with adulteries, or polluted with the deadly contagion of sacrifices, that they should not pray to God, nor make confession of their sins in the congregation. What doth Cyprian else mean by these words, but that Novatus denied repentance to such as were fallen, and would not receive them agayns into the Church, that is, not this or that parish, but the Church of Christ, the congregation of the faithful, for that was Novatus heresy, negare veniam lapsis, to deny forgiveness to those that fallen. And therefore also he denied unto them the fruits of repentance, as confession of their offences in the congregation of the faithful. etc. For Novatus opinion was not that such should only be secluded from this or that congregation, but generally from the Church of Christ, and hope of salvation: And therefore in that place of Cyprian is meant that Church, extra quam non est salus, without the which there is no salvation. And to what purpose do you proceed and go on forward, saying: That in the same Epistle, speaking of those that had fallen. etc. What proveth it? but that those heretics had cast them into such a despair of forgiveness, that they durst not offer themselves to be received into the Church, that is, to repentance? And that the same Heretics being themselves excommunicated, wandered up and down, sowing the pestilent seed of their doctrine. This is to oppose Heretics and Schismatics, (which run up and down in corners) to the true members of the Church. But it is not to oppose the Church to the Province. For the Province (if it be Chrystened) is the Church, although it contain in it several congregations, which be also Churches, and yet being members of it, are subject to one Bishop, and so doth the whole Epistle of Cyprian declare, neither can there anything be gathered out of it to the contrary: for a testimony whereof I call to witness these your weak collections, which you would not have used, if you could have found any better. Chap. 3. the. 8. Division. T. C. Page. 76. Sect. 2. Seeing therefore (a) A weak con clusion of false principles. the Bishop which Cyprian speaketh of, is nothing else but such as we call pastor, or as the common name with us is parson: and his Church whereof he is a Bishop, is neither diocese nor province▪ but a congregation which meet together in one place, and to be taught of one man, what should M. Doctor mean to put on this great name of Archbishop upon so small a Bishopric? as it were saul's great harness upon David his little body, or as if a man should set a wide huge porch before a little house. Io. Whitgifte. Where the premises be naught, how should the conclusion be good? I would to God your argument were in his right form, that we might see upon what substantial posts your conclusion doth stand. But let the Reader consider your grounds which I have opened before. I might here tell you again that Cyprian in plain and manifest words, Lib. 4. Epist. 1. doth make a Bishop superior in degree to him that you call pastor: his words I have repeated before. I might also put you in mind of Cyprians jurisdiction over the churches of Carthage, Numidia, and Mauritanie, according to his own testimony. lib. 4. Epi. 8. in which respect Illyricus doth call him Metropolitan: Likewise I might tell you that the most writers of that age, as Tertullian de Coro. militis, & de Fuga in pers. Origen hom. 2. in Numer. &. 11. in Hierem. do make three degrees of Ministers: Deacons, Priests, & Bishops. To be short, I could bid you look Eusebius. lib. 6. cap. 1. and you should find that Demetrius, who lived Anno. 191. was Bishop Paroeciarun Alexandria & Aegypti, of the parishes of Alexandria and Egypt, and refer you to many such examples used before, which utterly overthrow this conclusion, and even hiss it out of the doors. Chap. 3. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 3 And lest that M. Doctor should say, that notwithstanding the Bishops had but several churches: yet one of them might have either a title more excellent than the rest, or authority and government over the rest: that shall likewise be considered out of Cyprian. And first for the title and honour of archbishop, it appeareth how Cyprian held that as a proud name, for he objecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing: for that in believing certain evil reports of him, and misjudging . 4. p. 9 of him, he did appoint himself Bishop of a Bishop, and judge over him which was for the time appointed of God to be judge. Io. Whitgifte. Pupianus to whom Cyprian written that Epistle, had greatly misused Cyprian, in believing certain false rumours & reports of him, & upon the same giving sentence against him: for this cause Cyprian reproveth Pupianus, saying: Quis autem nostrum jongè est ab bumilitate, ut úmne ego, qui quotidie fratribus seruio, & venientes ad ecclesiam singulos benignè, & cum voto & gaudio suscipio: an tu qui te Episcopum Episcopi, & judicem judicis ad tempus à Deo dati constituis, etc. Whether of us is further from humility, I which serve my brethren daily, & receive every one that cometh unto the Church gently, & with desire & joy, or thou which makest thyself the Bishop of the Bishop, and the judge of the judge, given of God for the time. It appeareth rather in these words, that Florentius is reproved for taking upon him to judge Cyprian, to whom he aught obedience: so that this place doth not deregate any thing from any lawful authority, that one Bishop hath over another, but it condemneth the rash & presumptuous judgement of those, that will take upon them rashly to give sentence of their superiors & betters, as Pupianus did. For in that he finds fault with him, for making himself (as it were) Bishop of the Bishop, and judge of the judge, he plainly declareth, that he himself was both Bshop and judge of Pupianus: neither doth he object this to Pupianus as a proud name, but as a proud deed. Chap. 3. the. 10. Division. T. C. Page 76. Sect. 4. And herein also I may use the same reasons, which the godly writers of our time use against the Pope, to prove that he had no superiority in those days over other Bishops, for that the other Bishops called him brother, and he them, called him fellow Bishop, & he them. For so doth Cyprian call the Bishops of that province in his Epistle, his fellow Bishops, and in divers places his brethren. And in the sentence which he spoke in the Council of Carthage, he saith, none of us doth take himself to be Bishop of Bishops. Io. Whitgifte. Every Bishop was chief in his own Province, and not subject to any. The Bishop of Rome had no jurisdiction over the Bishop of Carthage, but they were of equal power and authority, as others were also of the like seats. In that Cyprian called the Bishops of his province, fellow Bishops and brethren, he declared that the function and ministery was all one: he like wise uttered his humble mind & spirit. But this proveth not that he had no superiority over them. S. Peter in his first Epist. chap. 5. 1. Pet. cap. 5. calleth himself fellow minister with those whom he then exhorted, which were all pastors, and such as were ministers of the word, and yet you acknowledge an Apostle to be the highest in the Church, & above all the other degrees mentioned ad Ephe. 4. Cyprians words in the Council of Carthage, I have spoken of in another place: he means the title of universal Bishop, and such as seek tyrannically & unlawfully to rule, and especially such as will of necessity bind all other men to their opinions in all things, for his words be: Tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adigat: None of us enforceth his fellows by tyrannical fear to the necessity of obeying. Chap. 3. the. 11. Division. T. C. Page. 77. Sect. 1 Now, that there was no authority of one Bishop over an other, and that there was none such as when controversies rose, took upon him the compounding of them, or any one, to whom it appertained, to see the unity of the Church kept, and to see that all other Bishops and the Clergy did their duty, as M. Doctor beareth us in hand, it may clearly be seen in divers places of Cyprian, and first of all in that sentence which he spoke in the Council of Carthage, where he proceedeth further after this sort, that none of them did by any tyrannical fear bind his fellows in office, or any fellow Bishops, to any necessity of obedience, seeing that every Bishop hath for his free liberty and power his own judgement, and discretion, as one which can not be judged of an other, as he also himself can not judge an other, but saith he, we aught to tarry and wait for the judgement of our Lord jesus Christ, which only and alone hath power to fet us over his Church, and to judge of our doing. And in the same Epistle, whereout the first place is taken by M. Doctor he saith, that unto every one a portion of the flock is appointed, which every one must rule & govern, as he that shall tender an account of his deed unto the Lord And in an other place he saith: Li. 2 ep. 1. we do not use any compulsion or violence over any, nor appoint no law to any, seeing that every one that is set over the Church, hath in the government the free disposition of his own will, whereof he shall give an account unto the Lord. And yet Cyprian was the Bishop of the Metropolitan or chief seat, and one whom for his learning and godliness, the rest no doubt had in great reverence, and gave great honour unto. Io. Whitgifte. Because so much ado is made of the words of Cyprian in that erroneous Council The words of Cyprian discussed. Tom. 1. Con. Carth. of Carthage, wherein Cyprian himself also was the chief author of the error, I will recite the words as I do there find them: Nequè enim quisquam nostrum episcopum se esse episcoporum constituit, aut tyrannico terrore, ad obsequendi necessitatem Collegas suos adigit, cum habeat omnis episcopus licentiam libertatis, & potestatis suae arbitrium proprium, tanquam judicari ab alio non possit, cum nec ipse possit alterum judicare, sed expectemus universi judicium Domini nostri jesu Christi, qui unus & solus habet potestatem, & praeponendi nos in ecclesiae suae gubernation, & de actu nostro judicandi: Neither doth any of us make himself Bishop of Bishops, or enforceth his fellows to the necessity of obeying by tyrannical fear, because every Bishop hath freedom of liberty and free judgement of his own power, as he who can be judged of no other, neither can himself judge another Bishop: but let us all wait for the judgement of our Lord jesus Christ, who alone hath power both to place us in the government of the Church, and to judge of our doing. It were very absurd, to think that Cyprians words are generaily to be understanded of all kind of judgement, or that a Bishop in all things should be left to his own free liberty: and discretion, or that be is free from all controlment. For what if he be an heretic? what if he be otherwise criminous? shall he not be judged by man, but left only to the judgement of Christ The words of Cyprian if they be as you understand them, The meaning of Cyprian. take authority of judgement aswell from Synods, as from Archbishops. Cyprian therefore means as the words themselves do teach, that one Bishop should not tyrannically rule over an other, & at his pleasure abridge the liberty of an other in uttering his judgement, especially in a Synod, or rashly condemn an other. For Cyprian in that Council propounding the controversy of rebaptisation, requireth every man's judgement thereof, protesting (as it were) not to condemn, or to excommunicate any that should descent from him in that matter, and thereupon saith, Nequè enim quisquam nostrum. etc. so that he means that to be tyrannicum, to compeil other Bishops necessarily to agree to his opinion in▪ all things, & these words, licentia libertalis & potestatis suae arbitrium proprium, are not m nt of jurisdiction, but of judgement and opinion. For one man is not of necessity bound to frame himself to the judgement and opinion of an other, but therein hath freedom and liberty, neither will any man allow this authority in any Archbishop. Touching jurisdiction, every Bishop in this church hath free government over his stock, in all things that belongeth unto him: if any thing happen that he can not end, than the Archbishop intermeddleth, if that will not serve, it is referred to a Synod. The words of Cyprian can in no respect derogate any thing from the jurisdiction of Archebishops. For concerning jurisdiction they be bound to laws themselves, and do but execute laws made, not of their own private authority, but by Parliament, and by the Prince. Neither can they control the worst minister in their Diocese, if he observe the laws and rules prescribed. Therefore except your meaning be, to have Bishops and ministers free from all laws and from all subjection to any superior, Prince or other (which is most like) I do not know why you should take this saying of Cyprian in that sense you do. Sure I am that the words doc not favour your Anarchy, and that may the Reader easily perceive. In that Cyprian saith, unto every one a portion of the flock is appointed, he saith truly, but yet doth he not thereby exempt Bishops, Pastors, and Ministers from obedience and subjection to their lawful governors. For due obedience doth not hinder any duty that is owing towards their flock. In the place that you allege out of Cyprians second book and first Epistle, you have omitted that which goeth before, and declareth what Cyprian means by the words that you have recited. His words be these: Caeterùm scimus quosdam quod Lib. 2. Epist. 1. semel imbiberunt nolle deponere, nec propositum suum facilè mutare: etc. But we know that certain will never lay away that which once they have taken: neither easily change their purpose, but do retain certain things peculiar to themselves, which once they have used: yet not breaking the bond of peace and concord among their fellows, wherein we neither compel any man, nor appoint any law, since every governor hath free judgement of his will in the government of the Church, and shall tender an account of his deed to the Lord. Cyprian in the words before, showeth his opinion concerning such, as being Ministers of the word had sacrificed to Idols, and when he hath so done, thus he speaketh to Stephano to whom he writ the Epistle: Haec ad conscientiam tuam (frater charissime). etc. Then followeth, Caeterùm scimus. etc. as I have before recited, wherein Cyprian signifieth, that he will not take upon him to judge or to condemn other Churches, which have a contrary custom, so that they keep the bond of peace. But he means undoubtedly such Churches and Bishops, as he had nothing to do with, else it is manifest, that within his own charge he would not have suffered any such thing to be done, and this place answereth all that Cyprian hath spoken any where touching Tract. 3. cap. 2. Sect. 5. not receiving into the ministery such as had sacrificed to Idols, whereof I have spoken before. Chap. 3. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 2. 3. 4. And whereas it is said for the preservation of unity, one must be over all, S. Cyprian showeth Li. 4. epi. 9 that the unity of the Church is conserved not by having one Bishop over all, but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another. For so he writeth, that the church is knit and coupled together (as it were with the give) of the Bishops consenting one with an other. And as for the compounding of controversies, it is manifest, that it was not done by one Bishop in a province, but those bishops which were near the place where the schism or heresy sprung. For speaking of the appeasing of controversies & schisms, and showing how divers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawn into the heresy of Novatus, he saith that the virtue and strength of the Christians, was not so decayed or anguished, but that there was a portion of Priests which did not give place unto those rumes and shipwreck of faith. And in another place he saith: therefore (most dear brother) the plentiful body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests, are as it were with the g we of mutual concord and band of unity joined together, that if any of our company be author of an heresy, and go about to destroy and rend the flock of Christ, the rest should help, and as profitable and merciful shepherds, gather together the sheep of the Lord. Whereby it is many fist, that the appeasing and composing of controversies and heresies, was not then thought to be most fit to be in one bishops hand: but in as many as could convemently assemble together, according to the danger of the heresy which sprung, or deep root which it had taken, or was like to take. Io. Whitgifte. The Bishops agree not one whit the worse, when they have a superior, by whom they may be called together, and put in mind of their office and duty. Neither doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other. For though the chief cause of unity is the consent and agreement of the Bishops one with another: yet to have one that shall have the chief care thereof, must needs be a great help thereunto, even as it is in other societies. For if the Bishops were divided among themselves, & at variance, and had no superior, who should compound the controversies? Our Archbishops do not take upon them (neither can they) to decide any controversy How far our Archbishop's deal in controversies. in doctrine and religion of their own authority, but therein do they deal either according to the laws of the Church provided for that purpose, or else expect a new Parliament or Synod. Neither doth any Bishop in his Diocese, otherwise meddle in such matters, than by the common consent of the Church is appointed unto him: and yet it was never otherwise taught by any, but that a Bishop in his own Diocese, or an archbishop in his Province, might use persuasions to end controversies, and execute the laws provided for the same: other kind of deciding controversies, by any private authority I know none in this Church of England. Wherefore all these allegations be but in vain, for surely not in Cyprians time, was the determining of such controversies committed to the Pastor and Signiory of every Parish, neither doth Cyprian make mention of any such matter, if he did, yet for government the diversity of the time, and state of the Church is to be considered, Tract. 2. &. 3. as I have before noted. Chap. 3. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authority given, as that any one might remove the causes or controversies which rose, as now we see there is, when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controversy which rise in any Church within his Diocese from the minister & Elders, to whom the decision pertaineth, and as when the archbishop taketh it away from the Bishop, it may appear in the same third Epistle of the first book, where he saith after this sort: It is ordained, and it is equal and right, that every man's cause should be there herded, where the fault was committed. And a little after he saith: It is meet to handle the matter there where they may have both accusers and witnesses of the fault, which although it be spoken of them which fled out of Africa unto Rome: yet the reason is general, and doth aswell serve against these ecclesiastical people, which will take unto them the deciding of those controversies, that were done a hundred mile of them. Io. Whitgifte. Cyprian as I said, speaketh not one word of your Signiory, & in that place by you alleages, he speaketh of the several Province▪ 〈◊〉 Diocese of every bishop, & would have every matter ended in that Province 〈◊〉 Diocese where it is committed, & therefore he speaketh there of such as fled out of Africa into Italy, to have their matters herded, so that this place is soluted by your own self. It is meet that the matter should be there handled where there may be had both accusers & witnesses: And that was one of the reasons that the Council of Africa said against the Bishop of Rome, claiming interest in hearing appeals from thence. But there is no Province in England so large, but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any part of it from any other part. This reason of yours may serve better against Westminster hall, which is but one place to serve the whole Realm for deciding of controversies, and yet I think it very necessary▪ You may not wrist that to your purpose or proof of Signiory, or authority thereof, which Cyprian speaketh of divers Provinces: yea divers Countries and Nations. This is no good reason, Cyprian misliked the translating of causes from Africa to Rome, Ergo, there may be no causes removed from Northampton to London. Chap. 3. the. 13. Division. T. C. Page. 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in both places of Cyprian seemeth to stand much upon the words (one Bishop and priest) the reason thereof doth appear in another place of Cyprian most manifestly, L . 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to prove that there aught to be one archbishop over a whole province, than to say, that there aught to be but one husband proveth, that therefore there should be but one husband in every country or province, which should see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wives. For this was the case, a Novatian heretic being condemned & cast out of the Churches of Africa by the consent of the Bishops, & not able by embassage sent to them, to obtain to be received to their communion & fellowship again, oeth afterwards to Rome, and being likewise there repelled, in time getteth himself by certain which favoured his heresy, to be choose Bishop there at Rome (Cornelius being the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded) whereupon it cometh that Cyprian urgeth (one Bishop, one priest in the church) because at Rome there was two, whereof one was a wolf, which aught not to have been there, considering there was but one church which was gathered under the government of Cornelius, and therefore by that place of Cyprian it can not be gathered, that there aught to be but one Bishop in one city, if the multitude of professors require more, and that all can not well gather themselves together in one congregation, to be taught of one man, much less can it serve to prove that there should be but one in a whole Diocese or province. I grant that in latter times, and which went more from the simplicity of the pri itive church, they took occasion of these words to decree, that there should be but one Bishop in a city, (*) This is to preferre your own judgement before e the judgement of worthy Counsels. but that can never be concluded of Cyprians words, if it be understanded why he urgeth (one Bishop, and one priest.) If therefore neither word (Bishop nor priest) do make any thing to prove an archbishop, nor this word (church) doth imply any province, nor in these words (one Bishop, one priest) there is nothing less meant than that there should be one archbishop over all the Bishops and clearg e in a province, and if Cyprian will neither allow of the title of an archbishop, nor of the authority and office, but in plain words speaketh against both, we may conclude that M. Doctor hath done very unadvisedly to lay so great weight of the archbishop upon S. Cyprians shoulders, that will not only not bear any thing of him, but which hath done all that could be, to make him go afoo e, and hand in hand with his fellows. Io. Whitgifte. M. Doctor standeth not upon these words, (one Bishop, and one priest) although the words serve very well for his purpose: Neither is your shift of a Nova jan, being choose Bishop in Rome, any thing to the matter. For though it might seem partly to interpret Cyprians meaning in his Epistle to Cornelius, yet can it not pertain to that that he writeth of Florentius Pupianus. And be it that Cyprian meant to seclude Novatus, when he said, Du Episcopus qui unus est. etc. when as the Bishop which is one▪ etc. What can be spoken more to my purpose▪ for Cyprian would have but one Bishop in one city to govern the Church, as his words manifestly declare. And whereas you say, that it can not be gathered by that place of Cyprian, that there aught to be but one Bishop in one city if the multitude of professors require more. etc. the Epistle of Cornelius in Eusebius, lib, 6. cap. 43. doth convince you of vanity in so saying. For Euseb. Lib. 6. Cap. 43. The number of Christians in Rome great in Cyprians time. in that Epistle he declareth, that there was then in Rome. 46. Priests, seven Deacons, seven Subdeacons. 42. Acoluthes. 52. Erorcistes, readers, doorekéepers. 1500. widows and diseased: and therefore it is to be presupposed that the number of other Christians there, was very great, seeing that the Clergy, and those which were found of the Church, amounted to the number of. 1654. and moste like that there were several congregations, for it was not possible for them to meet in one place, and yet was there then but one Bishop. For Cornelius in the same Epistle, speaking of Novatus saith, Itaque vindex ille evangelii ignoravit unum esse debere Episcopum in catholica ecclesia, This defender of the Gospel was ignorant that there aught to be one Bishop in a catholic Church. The old Canons and ancient Fathers do testify, that in one City there aught to be but one Bishop. Chrysostom told Sisinius, that one city must have but one Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 2. Bishop, as we read, lib. 6. cap. 22. of Socrates. Neither are you able to show from Christ's time, that ever there was allowed to be two Bishops in one city. Wherefore the words of Cyprian are yet in force (for any thing you have alleged to the contrary) to prove the office of an Archbishop, or metropolitan to be, to compound schisms, and provide that there be unity in the Church. etc. Chap. 3. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 78. Lin. 26. There are other reasons which M. Doctor useth, as this, a notable one. S. Cyprian speaketh This argument is of your own joining, and not M. Doctors. not of the usurped power of the Bishop of Rome, therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbishop and Metropolitan. It is hard to call this argument to any head of fallation, for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason. I think it can deceive no body but yourself. Io. Whitgifte. I tell you that the place is not to be understanded of the usurped authority of the Bishop of Rome, but of the authority of the archbishop in his Province, or Bishop in his Diocese. I do not make any argument of it: doth it grieve you to hear that Cyprian doth not speak of the usurped authority of the Bishop of Rome? or doth every man make an argument when he doth interpret? But this dealing of yours is not strange, I must be content to bear with it. Chap. 3. the. 15 Division. T. C. Page. 78. Lin. 30. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. another reason is, that all the godlyest and best learned men do expound the place of Cyprian in the third Epistle of the first book, of an archbishop. The vanity of this saying, that the godly and learned writers so expound it, I have showed before, and here it cometh to be considered again. I will not say that no godly nor learned writer expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authority of an Archbishop. But first I desire M. Doctor to set down but one, and then I will leave it to thy consideration (gentle Reader) to think whether M. Doctor hath read any learned or godly man's exposition to be such, when he hath not read those which are nearest him, I mean our own countrymen. I say he hath not read them, because I would think charitably so of him, rather than that he should have read them, and yet speak untruly of them, and father those things of them which they never spoke. M. jewel the Bishop of Sarisburie expounded this place, and yet did (a) Untruth, as will appear. never expound it In his 〈◊〉 book. 4. article, and in 〈◊〉, 5. of the office and authority of an Archbishop of all the Bishops, and Clergy of the province, but clean contrariwise applieth it to the authority that every Bishop had in his Diocese. His words are these. Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only Bishop, that is generally spoken of all Bishops, is a guileful fetch to mislead the Reader, and no simple nor plain dealing. here you see that M. jewel doth not understand this of any archbishop, but of every bishop M. Nowell Deane of Paul's having occasion to talk of this place says on this sort. So that (b) M Nowell will widow esse against you. First book against Dor man &. 25. 〈◊〉. when he speaketh (meaning Cyprian) of one Bishop, one judge, in the Church, for the time, or of the Bishop which is one, and ruleth the Church absolutely, he means every Bishop in his own Diocese, without exception, if he speak specially, he means the Bishop of the city or Diocese whereof he entreateth, whether it be the Bishop of Rome, Carthage, or any other place. M. Fox also expoundeth this of every Bishop within his own Church or Diocese. You Fol. 93. hear the judgement of these three writers, that cannot pick out neither the name nor the office of an Archbishop out of Cyprians place, and yet I think you will not deny, but these were learned and godly writers. Now I have showed you three. I ask once again of you, one godly and learned writer, that expoundeth it as you do. And by this time I suppose all men understand what a smallfriend S. Cyprianis either to the name or office of an Archbishop. Let us hear whether Jerome make any more for the Archbishop then did Cyprian. Io. Whitgifte. M. jewel Bishop of Sarisburie expounding the place of Cyprian in the fourth article M. jewel. 5. Division. 228. page of his first book hath these words. Upon occasion hereof he showeth (meaning Cyprian) what hurt and confusion of sects and schisms ensueth in any province or diocese whereas the bishops authority and ecclesiastical discipline is despised. I pray you what call you that Bishop that hath government of a province? Is he not a Metropolitan or Archbishop? and doth not my L. of Sarisbury as well speak of a province, as he doth of a diocese? I do not deny, but that Cyprians words may be fitly applied to every Bishop in his diocese: but is the Archbishop therefore secluded? seeing he of whom, Cyprian did writ was a Metropolitan, or Archbishop. That which is the office of the Archbishop in his province, is also the office of a Bishop in his diocese, and therefore that which is spoken of the province, in respect of the Archbishop, is also spoken of the Diocese in respect of the Bishop. And pag. 230. he says that universa fraternitas, is taken for one whole particular Idem. brotherhood, within one province or diocese: so that your first witness testifieth with me, else would he not have named a province. M. Nowell fol. 22. 23. 24. doth expound this place of the authority of every Bishop M. Nowell. in his own Diocese, which is sufficient for me, and is as much against you as can be, for you would have no Bishops over Dioceses, but only pastors in several towns. That which he speaketh of a Bishop in his Diocese, he also means of an Archbishop in his Province, whose both name and office he doth allow, as it is manifest in these words of his in his third book against Dorman, fol. 320 where he answering Idem. this question of Dormans, whether he will condemn the whole Church for making of Archbishops, says thus. I answer I much commend the Church for so doing, so far of is it that I will condemn the whole Church therefore. But what shall I need to use any circumstances, seeing he doth most evidently apply this place of Cyprian to that purpose which you will not acknowledge, yea even unto the office of an Archbishop in his Province, for thus he writeth fol. 33. of his first book (speaking of this epistle of Cyprian to Cornelius, and confuting Dormans' argument taken out of it for the Pope's supremacy, which is grounded upon this place, Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt. etc.) Concerning the avoiding and quieting of schisms and troubles in the Church, We say that as the several Kings of every kingdom, the several governors of every country and city. etc. are able to oversee their several charges, and to keep their people in civil order and peace, so are the several Bishops of every Diocese, and the several chief Prelates of every Province, able to avoid or to appease if they rise all Schisms and troubles ecclesiastical, as S. Cyprian out of whom this reason is borrowed, and falsely wrested by them to an other purpose, doth most plainly teach saying thus. Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis. etc. What call you chief prelate's of every Province? Be they not archbishops? Likewise fol. 60. &, 61. in the same book, speaking of this and such like places he says, And further whatsoever M. Dorman either out of Deutero▪ or any other place of Scripture doth untruly apply to the proof of the Supremacy of one head, to wit the Bishop of Rome, the same doth S. Cyprian, M. Dormans own usual witness, euerie where allege for the proof of the superiority of every Bishop in his own Diocese, and for the obedience due unto him there, he doth never apply it as doth M. Dorman to the Supremacy of one Bishop over all other, but rather against such supremacy of one: & it agreeth very well with the estate of the Jews, that as they being one nation had one chief Priest, so is it good likewise that every Christian nation have their chief Priest or Bishop: it agreeth not that because the jews (one nation) had one high Priest to govern them in doubts, therefore all nations throughout the world should have one high Priest over all other, for not only the unlikelihood between these two, but the impossibility of the latter is most evident. The words of M. Fox in that place speaking against the Papistical interpretation M Fox. Tom. 1. fol. 93. of Cyprians words be these, when their meaning is otherwise, how that every one catholic Church or Diocese, aught to have one Bishop over it: which also justifieth my interpretation. For if it be understanded of one Bishop over one Diocese, then is it in like manner of one Archbishop over one Province: For the reason is all one, and you deny them both alike: For you would have no Bishops but in several Parishes. Now therefore you see that even these authors whom you would abuse against me, do make wholly and fully against you, and with me. For they confess the two places of Cyprian to be meant of Cornelius, and of himself, who were both archbishops and metropolitans, and had ample jurisdiction, especially Cyprian as I have declared. And M. Fexe himself Tom. 1. Folly 21. saith that the sea of Rome was a patriarchal Idem. sea appointed by the primitive Church, and the Bishop thereof, an Archbishop, limited within his own bordering Churches: so that the one place being meant of Cornelius Archbishop of Rome, the other of Cyprian Archbishop of Carthage (for so they were in deed though they were not in those places so called), S. Cyprian may well be said in both places to speak of an Archbishop, though he express not his name. And that which is there spoken of Cornelius or Cyprian within their Provinces, may most aptly also be understood of every Bishop within his Diocese, and therefore my L. of Sarum expounding this place speaketh of them both under these names of Province and Diocese: and so doth M. Nowell under the name of chief Prelate and Province, and M. Fox also under the word Diocese, being plain and evident, that they allow of the office. That learned man and godly Martyr M. Philpot, as it is recorded in the book of M. Philpot exam. 5. Acts and Monuments in his fift examination answering this place of Cyprian objected unto him by D. Saverson, answereth most plainly in these words: And now for the understanding of that place, you do misconstrue it, to take the high Priest only for the Bishop of Rome, and otherwise than it was in his tyme. For there were by Nicene Council four patriarchs appointed, the patriarch of jerusalem, the patriarch of Constantinople, the patriarch of Alexandria, and the patriarch of Rome, of which four the patriarch of Rome was placed lowest in the Council, and so continued many years, for the time of seven or eight general Counsels as I am able to show. Therefore S. Cyprian writing to Cornelius Patriarch of Rome, whom he calleth fellow Bishop, finds himself offended that certain heretics being justly excommunicated by him (as the Novatian, were) did fly from his Diocese which was their chief Bishop (refusing to be obedient unto him & to be reform) to the Bishop of Rome & to the Patriarch of Constantinople, and there were received in communion of congregation in derogation of good order, & discipline in the Church, & to the maintaining of heresies and schisms. And that heresies did spring up & schisms daily arise hereof, that obedience was not given to the Priest of God, nor once considered him to be in the Church for the time the Priest, and for the time the judge in Christ's stead (as in decree of Nicene Council was appointed) not meaning ☞ the Bishop of Rome only, but every Patriarch in his precinct, who had every one of them a college or a Cathedral Church of learned priests in hearing of whom, by a convocation of all his fellow Bishops, with the consent of the people, all heresies were determined by the word of God, & this is the meaning of S. Cyprian, hitherto M. Philpot. Thus the reader may easily perceive how you have dalied about this place of Cyprian, and that this interpretation is not mine alone. Chap. 3. the. 16. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. 3. &. Pag. 71. Sect. 1 And therefore Jerome writing upon the first to Titus saith, that Jerome. in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest was all one. But after that there began to rise factions in Religion, and some said they held of Apollo, some of Paul, some of Cephas, and some of Christ, it was decreed that one should be choose to bear rule over the rest, to whom the chief care of the Church should appertain, and by whom sects and schisms should be cut of. Here a man may reason thus. The distinction of degrees began in the Church, when men began to say I hold of Paul, I hold of Apollo. etc. But this was in the Apostles time, the. 1. Cor. 1. Therefore these distinctions of degrees beganin the Apostles time. The same Hierom in his Epistle ad Euagrium teacheth, that the cause why one was choose amongst the Bishops to rule over the rest, was in schismatis remedium, ne unusquisque ad se trahens Christi ecclesiam rumperet, to meet with Schisms, least every one according to his own fancy should tear in pieces the Church of Christ, and says further, that in Alexandria, from S. Mark unto Heracla and Dionysius Bishops, the Ministers used to elect one among themselves whom they placing in a higher degree, called a Bishop, even as an army should choose their Captain, or Deacons should choose one of themselves whom they knew to be painful, and call him an Archdeacon. Haec Hieronymus. In all these places Jerome doth not maintain the authority of one man over the whole Church, but thinketh it necessary that in every Province there be one to be chief over the rest, for unity sake, and for rooting out of contentions & sects. And therefore contra Luciferianos he saith that unless this superiority were, there would be as many schisms in the Church as there be priests. T C. Pag. 79. Sect. 1. 2. The Hebrues do derive the name of time of a verb, which signifieth to corrupt, because in deed it doth corrupt all, & as the times are so are men which live in them: that even very good men carry the note of the infection of the times wherein they live, & the stream of the corruption thereof being so vehement & forcible, doth not only drive before it light things, but it eateth also & weareth the very hard & stony rocks, & therefore there is not to be looked for (*) This is your usual practice, when you cannot answer to cavil at the credit of the author. such sincerity at Hieromes hand, Which we found in S. Cyprian, considering that he lived, some ages after Cyprian, what time Satan had a great deal more darkened the clear light of the Sun of the Gospel, than it was in S. Cyprians time. For as those that came nearest unto the Apostles times, because they were nearest the light did sce best, so those that were further of from these lights, had until the time of the manifestation of the son of perdition, their heavens more dark & cloudy, & consequently did see more diviely, which is diligently be observed of the reader, both the better to understand the state of this question, and all other controversies, which lie between us and the Papists. And although Jerome besides his other faults, might have also in this matter spoken more sound, yet we shall easily perceive that he is a great deal further, from either the title or office of an Archbishop, or else from the authority, that a Bishop hath with us, than he is from the simplicity of the ministerio which aught to be, and is commended unto us by the word of God. Io. Whitgifte. This is but a poor refuge, when you cannot answer to discredit the author: it is evident that Jerome saith nothing touching this matter, but that which is both consonant to the scriptures, & confirmed by the practice of the Church, long before his time, as appeareth by that which is said before. And I pray you what difference is there, betwixt that which Jerome speaketh in this place, and that which Cyprian hath s id before? For Cyp jan said, That heresies & schisms have sprung & do spring of this, because the priest of God is not obeyed. etc. And because the Bishop which is one, & is set oh oer the church, is through the proud presumption of some contemned. etc. And Jerome says that the 'cause why among the Bishops one was choose to govern the rest, was to remedy schisms. Do you not perceive how these two fathers join in one truth, & directly affirm the self same matter? It is true that time corrupteth, & therefore much more occasion is offered to appoint government according to the times, lest the corruptions prevail & get the upper hand, & for this cause, Jerome says that upon these corruptions of time, the Church was constrained to appoint this order. Chap. 3. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3 And here I must put M. Doctor in remembrance, how unfitly he hath dedicated his book unto the church, which hath so patched it & peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors, that a sentence of A frivolous di from the matter. the scripture either truly or fall lie alleged, is as it were a Phoenix in this book. If he would have had the church believe him, he ought to have settled their judgement, & grounded their faith upon the scriptures, which are the only foundations whereupon the church may build. Now he doth not only not give them ground to stand of: but he leadeth them into ways which they cannot follow, nor come after him. For except it be those which are learned, & besides have the means & ability, to have the books which are here cited (which are the least & smallest portion of the Church) how can they know that these things be true, which are alleged, & as I have said if they could know, yet have they nothing to stay themselves upon, & quiet their conscience, in allowing the which M. Doctor would so feign have them like of. Therefore he might have much more fitly dedicated his book unto the earned and rich, which have furnished lybraries. Io. Whitgifte. M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures than you have answered, as in the sequel it will fall out, although (as I said before) in such matters, the scripture hath not expressly Tract. 2. determined any certainty, but hath left them to the Church, to be appointed according to the circumstances of time, place, and person, as I have proved both out of the scriptures & learned writers, & intent to do hereafter more particularly, when I come to entreat of your Signiory. If all other men should do as you have done, that is, borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other men's collections, & not read the authors themselves, a few books will serve, & with very small charges, they mightbe provided. The patches, pieces. & shreds of Doctors that be in my book, are taken out of the Doctors themselves, & they be whole sentences faithfully alleged. But the shreds of doctors, that your book is stuffed with, you have borrowed of other: you have falsified than, & cut them off by the half: you have fathered upon them that which is not to be found in them: and the words of late writers, you have set down under the name of ancient fathers: and the scriptures you have falsely alleged, and untruly translated: I would not gladly have burst out into this accusation at this time, being from the matter, but that you have urged me thereunto. Chap. 3. the. 18. Division. T. C. Page. 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Jerome says, the at the first a Bishop & an elder (which you call a priest) were all one, but afterward through factions & schisms, it was decreed that one should rule over the rest. Now I say against this order, that the Bishop should bear rule over all, the which our saviour Christ says unto the Pharisees, from the beginning it was not so, & therefore I require that the first order may stand, which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop & elder were all one. And if you place so great authority against the institution of God in a mortal man, hear what Tertullian says unto you. That is true, whatsoever is first, and that is false whatsoever is latter. Jerome & you confess that this was first, that the Bishop was all one with the elder, & first also by the tertullian's meaning falsified, word of God, them I conclude that, that is true. You both do likewise confess, that it came after that one bore rule over the rest, than I conclude, the that is false: for all that is false, that is latter. Furthermore Jerome in the same place of Titus says after this sort. As the elders know themselves to be subject by a custom of the Church, unto him that is set over them, so the Bishops must know, that they are greater than the elders, rather by custom, than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord, and so they aught to govern the Church in common. Io. Whitgifte. It followeth after in my answer to the Admonition, that there was superiority among the ministers of the word, e est in the Apostles time, which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures & other testimonies, it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions & schis mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church even in the Apostles time: & therefore most like these that Icrome speketh of, to have been them determined. The which to be true, his words and 〈◊〉 touching the church of Alexandria doth evidently declare: for he says that this order was kept 〈◊〉 from S. Mark. But admit these were not true (which you will never be able to prove) yet your argument is of no force, & the place of Tertullian is not understanded, for Tertullian in that book, after he hath repeated the rule of faith, which is to believe in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. one God, and in his son jesus Changed ist. etc. he says, that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospel even before all former heretics, much more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterday, as well the posterity of all heretics as the very novelty of 〈◊〉 which was of late will prove. Whereby judgement may hereof be indifferently given against all heresies, that that is true whatsoever is first, & that count rfeit, whatsoever is last. Whereby it is e ident that tertullian's rule is to be understanded in matters of salvation, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin. veland. & of faith, & not in matters of ceremonies, & kinds of government: which thing he himself in plain words declareth in his book de virginibus velandis, where in like manner after he hath recited this rule of faith, he addeth this law of aith remaining, other things of discipline & conversation admit newness of correction, the grace of God working and going forward, even to the end. So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered (the rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉) notwithstanding his former rule. If you will not have this to be the meaning of Tertullian, then will I reason thus. The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 'gainst 〈◊〉 In the beginning there were Apostles, therefore there must be Apostles now: in the beginning it was forbidden to eat that which was strangled, Ergo we may not eat it now: In the beginning there were no Christian Magistrates Ergo there must e no e now: In the beginning the Apostles baptised in rivers, the communion was ministered to. 12. only. etc. Ergo quòd posterius falsum, that which is latter is false: these be as good arguments as yours. But it is manifest that Tertullian speaketh of matters of faith, & necessary to salvation, & therefore these arguments, & yours also with such like, be stark nought. Chap. 3. the. 19 Division. T. C. Page. 79. Sect. ult. Now seeing that Jerome confesseth that a Bishop & an elder, by God his institution are all one, & that custom of the Church hath altered this institution, for the taking away of this custom, & restoring of the Lords institution, I say as our saviour Christ said, why do you break the commandments Math 15. of God, to establish your own traditions▪ for the one is the institution of God, & the other the tradition of the Church, & if a man's testimony be so much with M. Doctor, let him hear what the same Develand. virg. Tertullian says, whatsoever savoureth against the truth, shallbe accounted heresy, even although it be an old custom. Io. Whitgifte. Your whole bóoke is grounded upon the sands, that is upon foundations not proved, as this is. For you should first have proved, that Christ hath so commanded equality of Ministers in government & ecclesiastical policy, that one of them may not be above the other: the contrary is to be seen in scripture, both in words & examples, as I have after declared, so far of is it, that you can show any commandment to the contrary. This text of ye.. 15. of. Mat. did the Anabaptistes, object unto Zuinglius in the like case, as it appeareth in his book de Baptismo. But he answered them as I must answer you, I speak Zuing. de 〈◊〉 not as you feign me to speak, I speak only of external & indifferent things, whereof there be many which are neither commanded nor forbidden by any express word of God. etc. & again, for this that we speak of is not necessarrie unto salvation, but it is external, of the which things many may be found omitted in the scriptures. etc. Wherefore except you can prove, that we bring into the Church some thing as necessary unto salvation which is not expressed in the scriptures, this text is no more aptly applied by you against me, than it was by the Anabaptists, against Zuinglius. The words of Tertullian are true, and make nothing for your purpose, for you must first prove that these degrees be against the truth. Chap. 3. the. 20. Division. T. C. Page. 80. Line. 3. Now I will turn M. Doctors own argument upon his head, after this sort. (a) A syllogism 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. In the Apostles times there were (b) schisms & heresies but in their times there were no archbishops ordained to appear them: therefore the best means of composing of controversies and keeping concord, is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you are 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉▪ pag. 7 . 〈◊〉 5. by having an Archbishop to be over a whole Province. Io. Whitgifte. I will severally answer your arguments, that the reader may the better understand the pith of them. And first I deny this argument, because it is neither in mode A 〈◊〉 argument does 〈◊〉. nor figure. For first you must call to memory, that in the third figure where you would seem to place it, the Minor may not be negative as yours is. Secondly there is more in the conclusion then there is in the premises which is against all rules of syllogisms. If you had concluded according to your former propositions, you should have said thus, Ergo when there are Archbishops there are no schisms. For this is the true conclusion of that false syllogism. Thirdly Minus extremum should be subiectum conclusionis, and in this argument it is praedicatum. Seeing therefore that your argument hath no true form in any respect, I deny it, until it be better framed. Chap. 3. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 80. Line. 7. That there was none in the that Apostles times, thus it may appear. If there were any they were either ordained by the Apostles, & their authority, or else without and besides their authority. If there were any without & besides their authority; then they are therefore to be condemned that more, because in their time they starie up without their warrant. And if the Apostles did ordain them, there was some use of them, to that whereunto they were ordained, but there was no use of them to that whereunto they were ordained, therefore the Apostles did not ordain them. The use whereunto M. Doctor says they were ordained, was to compose controversies and end schisms, but to this they were not used: whereupon it followeth, that if there were any they were unprofitable. That they were not used to any such end it shall be perceived by that which followeth. Io. Whitgifte. This should be the proof of your former Minor, if the argument had been good: but be it as you would have it, here is yet no sufficient proof of your Minor. They are but only your own bore words, which may as easily be rejected, as they be barely by you affirmed. But lest the ignorant reader should think that I shift of matters with such quiddities as they understand not, I will set a side the deformed face of your argument, and come to the matter, & (as I think) your meaning, which is this. Controversies were compounded in the Apostles time without an Archbishop, Ergo they may likewise be so now, so that there is no need of any Archbishop. This is the controversy, whether the Church be bond to the same kind of external government at all times, that was used in the Apostles times. I have proved hitherto that it is not. And more is to be The office of an archbishop in the Apostles. Ad. 4. 15. 18. 1 Cor. 3. 4. 5. ▪ l'traque id tim. epi ad Tit. Euseb. lib 3 Cap. 23. Epibha. lib. 1. Tom. 2. said of the same afterwards. In the mean time this I give you to understand, that although the Apostles had not this name of Archbishop among them, yet they had the same authority and office. For they had the government & direction of divers Churches, both in matters of doctrine & discipline: they ended controvesies, repressed errors, kept them in quietness: ordained them Bishops, & visited them, as appeareth Act. 14. 15. 18. 1. Cor. 3. 4. 5. . & in the Epistle to Timothy & Titus. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 23. declareth of john the Evangelist, that after he returned from Pathmos, he visited & governed sundry Churches, & ordained them Ministers. The like doth Epiphanius report of Peter in Pontus & Bithynia Lib. 1. Tom. 2. And what other office than those hath the Archbishop. Therefore though the name of Archbishop was not among the Apostles, yet was his office & function. And notwithstanding that part of the office of the Apostles is ceased which consisted in planting & founding of Churches, throughout the world: yet this part of government & direction of Churches remains still and is committed to Bishops. Therefore says Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephe. Apostoli Episcopi sunt, Apostles are Bishops, Ambro. in. 4. Ephe. because Bishops do succeed them in preaching the word, & governing the church. Now if I shall also prove by good authority that among the Apostles themselves Superiority among the Apostles. and in their times, there was one chief (though he were not called Archbishop) than I suppose that it will not seem strange unto you, that in this state of the Church, it should be convenient to have the like in every Province or Diocese. Jerome in his first jerom. advers. joni. lib. 1. book adversus iovinianum saith thus. Yet among the twelve one is choose, that a head being appointed, occasion of schism might be removed. And lest you should wipe this away with your accustomed depraving of the Author, I will join unto him the testimony of M. Caluine in his Institutions Cap. 8. who writeth thus. That the twelve Caluine. Apostles had one among them to govern the rest, it was no marvel, for nature requireth it, and the disposition of man will so have it, that in every company (although they be all equal in power) yet that there be one as governor, by whom the rest may be directed. There is no court without a Consul, no Senate without a Praetor, no College without a precedent, no society without a master. M. Bucer likewise in his book, De regno Christi, hath these words. Now we see by the perpetual observation of the Churches even from Bucer. the Apostles themselves, that it hath pleased the holy Ghost, that among the Ministers to whom especially the government of the Church is committed, one should have the chief ear, both of the Churches and whole ministery, and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence, for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly given to such chief governors of Churches, etc. Again upon the. 4. to the Ephe. he saith as before is alleged. Paul in the Acts called the same men, Bishops & Ministers, when he called for the Idem. Ministers of Ephesus to Miletum, yet because one among them did rule, and had the chief ear of the Church, the name of a Bishop did properly belong unto him. Neither was his age always considered, so that he were virtuous and learned, as we have an example in Timothy being a young man. Thus than you see, that even amongst the Apostles themselves, and in the Churches in their times, there were some, that had the chief authority over the rest, and to this end especially, that schisms and contentions might be compounded, and the rest might be directed, which are the chief parts of the Archbishop's office: and therefore all this that you have here said, falls flat to the ground: And yet still I do affirm, that if it had not been so in the Apostles time, yet might it have been both lawfully and necessarily, at other times. Chap. 3. the. 22. Division. T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 1 At Antioch there rose a great & dangerous heresy, that had in a manner infected all the Churches which shaked the very foundation of the salvation of gods childen, that was, whether faith were sufficient to justify without circumcision. The matter was disputed of both sides, it could not be agreed of. What do they now? Do they ordain some Archbishop, Archprophet, Archapostle, or any one chief to whom they will refer the controversy, or upon whom they will depend? Nothing less. And if they would have had the controversies ended by one, what divine was there ever, or shall there be more fit for that purpose than S. Paul, which was amongst them? Why do they sand abroad for remedy, when they had it at home? Why with great charges and long journeys, which they might have had without charges, or one foot set out of the door? what do they then? They send Paul and Barnabas to jerusalem, as if the lesser towns should sand to the Churches of the Universities, & of London, to desire their help in the determining of the controversy. And what is Paul & Barnabas embassage, is it to desire the judgement or mind of some one? It must needs be answered with S. Luke, that they came to know the resolution of the Church, and yet there were the Apostles, whereof every one was better able both sharply to see, and to judge incorruptly without affection, than any Archbishop that ever was. If therefore in so great abundance and overflowing of the gifts of God, and in that time when as controversies might have been referred without danger of error unto one only, this ministery of one above all, was not thought good: now when the gifts are less, and the danger of error more; to make an Archbishop for the deciding of controversies, and avoiding of schisms, is a thing so strange, that I am not able to see the reason of it. For to which soever of the Apostles the controversy had been referred, it is certain that he would have given a true sentence of it. Io. Whitgifte. It was told you before, that an Archbishop of himself alone doth not take upon Supr. diui. 〈◊〉. him to determine matters of doctrine in controversy: But if any such contention arise, either he determineth the matter according to the law, & rule already by the Church established, or else with the consent of the Prince doth he set an order in the same by a provincial and lawful Synod: in the which he is the chief, as some one of the Apostles were in such like assemblies, according to that which I have before declared: & therefore all this speech might well have been spared. Your argument also is faulty in two respects: first it is Ab authoritate negatiuè, or à non facto ad non ius, which is good Neque in divinis neque in humanis, neither in divine nor in human matters: Secondly, you go about to conclude an universal doctrine of one particular and singular example: which at no time, nor in any matter is tolerable. Moreover it rather justifieth my assertion, for it evidently proveth that every The example of T. C. is rather against him, than for him. Parish within itself, hath not absolute authority to end controversies, but that it behoveth them in such weighty matters, to resort to the chief Church, as they now did to jerusalem. This example therefore, if you well consider it, is directly against you: neither doth it in any respect prove, that there was then no chief governor or guide of the rest, to supply that place and office which now the Archbishop hath. Chap. 3. the. 23. Division. T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can show me one man in these times, of whom we may be assured, that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thank you for your gentleness the truth of every question which shall arise, he shall make me somewhat more favourable to the Archbishop, than presently I am. For although there were found one such as could not err, yet I could not consent that the matter should lie only upon his hand, seeing that the Apostles which could not err in these matters, would not take that upon them, & seeing that by that means the judgement of the Church should be contemned, and further, for that the judgement of one man in a controversy, is not so strong to pull up errors that are rooted in men's minds, as the judgement and consent of many. For, that the judgement of many is very apt either to confirm a truth, or to confute falsehood, it is evident that S. Paul doth hold forth, as it were a buckler against the frowardness of certain, the authority of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. You take great pains in fight without an adversary, and because otherwise (as it should seem) you lack matter to lengthen your book, therefore you devise matter of your own to strive against. For who hath affirmed that, which you so earnestly seek in this place to overthrow? It hath been told twice already, that neither of our Archbishops taketh upon him to compound controversies in doctrine by himself alone, neither is it their office so to do. The Archbishop's authority in this The authority of Archbishops in our Church. Church is, to provide by lawful and ordinary means that unity be observed in the Church: that contentions and schisms be cut off: that the religion and orders of the Church, by the whole consent of the Church agreed upon, be maintained: that every Bishop in his province do his duty according to the same: this is his principal charge (as I take it) against the which you have not as yet spoken any thing, but devise with yourself, to improve that which no man affirmeth: this is but very shifting and dallying. Chap. 3. the. 24. Division. T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3 Furthermore, if this distinction came up in the Apostles time, and by them, how cometh it to pass, that they never mention it, nay how cometh it to pass that even S. Paul in that very Epistle where these voices are found (I hold of Paul, I of Apollo, I of Cephas which are 1. Cor. 14. said to be the cause of the Archbishop) ordaineth a clean contrary to this that M. doctor commends? (a) A place far se ched to improve the office of the Archbishop. For when two or three Prophets have expounded the scriptures, he appointeth that all the rest that are there, should judge whether they have done well or no. Io. Whitgifte. I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles time, but you have not yet proved that the office was not then, or that there was then no superiority among the Clergy, which you notwithstanding deny. Your negative reason proveth nothing, as you have been oftentimes told. The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is far fetched, it speaketh not of gournment, and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in unapt allegations of scripture. discipline, or external policy of the Church, but of expounding the Scriptures. And what a reason call you this S. Paul, says. 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur, caete i dijudicent: Let two or three Prophets speak, and let the other judge, Ergo he speaketh against an Archbishop? Surely if the Authors of the Admonition had not been detected of their unskilful allegations of Scriptures, I should have had as much a do with you in that point: for even of these few which you have used, there is not almost one rightly and truly applied. S. Paul in that place to the Corinthians showeth, that the hearers must judge of the doctrine of the Prophets, whether it be according to the word of God or not, as those did which are commended in the. 17. of the Acts: but what is this to an Archbishop? Chap. 3. the. 25. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1 And how cometh it to pass that S. Paul being at Rome in prison, and looking every day when he should give up his last breath, commended unto the Church a perfect & an absolute ministery, Ephe. 4. How often hath this been repeated. standing of five parts, wherein he maketh mention, not one word of an Archbishop: and sayeth further, that that ministery is able to entertain the perfect unity, and knitting together of the Church? Do not all these things speak or rather cry, that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times? Io. Whitgifte. How often have you alleged this place to the same purpose? If I should do the like, you The place Eph. 4. not per ect pater would bestow one whole side in jesting at it. But I answer you as I did before. In this place the Apostle as you confess, reciteth offices that be but temporal, as Apostle, Prophet, etc. he leaveth out those offices which you say are perpetual, as Deacon, and Senior. Therefore it is no such perfect pattern, as you would have it. And if you say that these offices are contained under the names of Pastors and Doctors, than I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like manner. If you will have the Apostle to speak of these ministries only, which are occupied in the word and sacraments, than I say unto you, that an Archbishop is a name of jurisdiction and government Archbishop, a name of jurisdiction, not of a new ministery. committed to a Bishop, Pastor or Minister of the word, as necessary for the good government of the Church, but not as any new ministery, as you untruly both now, and also before have surmised. But to let all this pass: in those offices which S. Paul here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop contained, though it be not named, and namely under the Apostles and Pastors as I have before showed. Chap. 3. the. 26. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1 And if you will say, that the Apostles did ordain Archbishops (as you have indeed said, and do now again) when as there is not one word in the writings of them, I pray you tell us, how we shall hold out of the Church the unwritten verities of the Papists? For my part if it be true that you say, I cannot tell what to answer unto them. For our answer is to them, the Apostles have left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written, and therefore we reject their traditions, if for no other cause, yet because they are superfluous and more than need. Now this degree of Archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures, but also manifestly oppugned, it is to bold, & hard a speech (that I say no more) to et the pedigree of the Archbishop from the Apostles times, and from the Apostles themselves. Io. Whitgifte. I must answer you still as Zuinglius answered the Anabaptists in the like objection, and as I have answered you before: the Papists make their traditions necessary unto salvation, and therefore they are to be rejected, because the word of God containeth all things necessary to salvation. I make those offices part of decency, order, Ecclesiastical government and policy, which admitteth alteration as the times and people require, and are not particularly expressed in the Scriptures, no more than diverse other things be in the same kind, as I have proved before. And that this may seem no strange matter, or any thing favouring the Papists unwritten verities, you may call to remembrance that which M. Calvin saith of such traditions Caluine. upon these words. 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodum tradidi vobis instituta tenetis. I do not deny (saith he) but that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written etc. as I Tract. 2. have before recited, speaking of Ceremonies not expressed in the word. And you may see that wise and learned men are not so scrupulous in Apostolical traditions not written, so that they be not such as are made necessary unto salvation: neither is any learned man of contrary judgement. And therefore Archbishops may well be brought from the Apostles times, without any danger of admitting the unwritten verities of the Papists. You have not yet proved that either the name or office of archbishops is in any respect oppugned in the word of God, and therefore that is but feigned. Chap. 3. the. 27. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1 But all this time M. doctor hath forgotten his question, which was to prove an Archbishop, whereas all these testimonies which he allegeth, make mention only of a bishop, & therefore this may rather confirm the state of the bishop in this realm, than the Archbishop. But in the answer unto them it shall appear, that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an Archbishop mentioned, so except only the name of a Bishop, there shall be found very little agreement between the Bishops in those days, and those which are called Bishops in our time, and with us. Io. Whitgifte. M. Doctor remembreth that the Authors of the Admonition aswell deny the office of a Bishop, as the office of an Archbishop, and he is not ignorant, that the proof of the one is the confirmation of the other, and therefore he useth such testimonies as pertain to them both: of the which nature those places be that he hath hitherto alleged. For you must understand, that I spoke before of the name, and now according to my promise I speak of the office, which is not so far distant from the Bishops, but that in most things they be confounded: But let us now hear how you perform your promise. Chap. 3. the. 28. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. And consequently, although M. doctor thought with one whiting box to have whited two walls (by establishing our Archbishop and Bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers) yet it shall be plain, that in going about to defend both, he left both undefended. Io. Whitgifte. Words of pleasure, too too usual with T. C. but of small weight (God be thanked) and of less truth. Chap. 3. the. 29. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. 3. Let us therefore come first to examine Jerome's reasons, why one must be over the rest, for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded which is spoken either with some authority of the scripture, or with some reason grounded of the scripture: otherwise, if he speak without either scripture or reason, he is as easily rejected as alleged. One (saith he) being choose to be over the rest, bringeth remedy unto schisms: how so? lest every man (saith he) drawing to himself do break the Church in pieces. But I would ask if the Church be not in as great danger (*) Here you confounded a monarchy, and a tyranny. when all is done at the pleasure and just of one man, and when one carrieth all into error, as when one pulleth one piece with him, an other another piece, & the third his part also with him. And it is (a) Not so, if that one do govern by law. harder to draw many into an error, than one, or that many should be carried away by their affections, than one, which is evident (b) Your similitudes hold not. in water, which if it be but a little, it is quickly troubled and corrupted, but being much, it is not so easily. But by this ecclesiastical Monarchy, all things are kept in peace: Nay, rather it hath been the (c) Untruth. cause of discord, and well spring of most horrible schism, as it is to be seen in the very decretals Decret. par. 2. c. 9 q. 3. & can. Apost. 33. &. alibi passim. themselves. (d) A good for for contentio . And admit it were so, yet the peace which is without truth, is more execrable than a thousand contentions. For as by striking of two flints together, there cometh out fire, so it may be, that sometimes by contention, the truth which is hidden in a dark peace may come to light, which by a peace in naughtiness and wickedness being as it were buried under the ground, doth not appear. Io. Whitgifte. Jerome being a man of such singular learning, and great credit among those that be learned, in a matter of History as this (for he reporteth when one Bishop was T. C. descredueth the author whom he cannot answer e. placed over the rest, and for what cause) is more to be believed without reasons, than you with all your popular and frivolous arguments. Let the reader again consider whether this be your manner or not, by vain reasons to shake the credit of the author, when you cannot otherwise answer. The reasons that you use for the popular or Aristocratical government of the Church, when they come among the people, will be easily transferred to the state of the common weal, and peradventure breed that misliking of civil government, that you would now have of Ecclesiastical, to a further inconvenience and mischief, than you and all yours will be able to remedy. In the mean time you utterly overthrow T. C. over he 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ecclesiasti all. the queens authority in Ecclesiastical matters, given unto her by the laws of God, as hereafter shall be proved. For if the state must either be popular or Aristocratical, then must there be no one supreme governor in Church matters, but I will come to your reasons. First you ask whether the Church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man, and when one carrieth all into error. etc. Here you do either ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant. or wilfully confound Monarchiam with tyranny. For betwixt a king and a tyrant, this is one difference, that a king ruleth according to the laws that are prescribed for him to rule by, and according to equity and reason: a tyrant doth what him list, followeth his own affections, contemneth laws, and saith, Sic volo, sic jubeo, stat pro ratione voluntas. So I will, so I command, my pleasure standeth for reason. Now therefore to use those reasons to overthrow a lawful Monarchy, which are only proper to wicked tyranny, is either closely to accuse the government of this Church of England of tyranny, or maliciously by subtle dealing, and confounding of states, to procure the The ecclesiastical government in this Church not tyrannical but lawful. misliking of the same in the hearts of the subjects. There is neither Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust, but according to those laws and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realm in Parliament, and by such laws of this Monarchy as never hitherto any good subject hath misliked: and therefore your ground being false: how can the rest of your building stand? It hath been said before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authority, given unto him, to do all things alone, or as him lust. He is by law prescribed both what to do, and how to proceed in his doings. Moreover this Church of England (God's name be praised therefore) hath all points of necessary doctrine certainly determined, Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed, from the which neither archbishop nor bishop may serve, and according to the which, they must be directed, to the observing of the which also, their duty is to constrain all those that ée under them. So that whosoever shall wilfully and s ubburnely sever himself from obedience, either to archbishop or Bishop in such matters, may justly be called a Schismatic, or a disturber of the Church. And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian now most true: For neither do heresies Li. . Epist. 3. arise, nor Schisms spring of any other thing, but hereof, that the Priest of God is not obeyed. And so is this of Jerome's in like manner. Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos. dignitate, cui si non exors & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas, tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata, quot sacerdotes. The safety of the Church dependeth upon the dignity of the high Priest, to whom unless a singular and peerless power be given, there will be, as many schisms in the Church, as there be Priests. You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one, etc. which is not true, The government of one by law, more safe than of many without law. when that one ruleth and governeth by law. For the mind of man even of the best may be overruled by affection, but so cannot the law. Wherefore a wicked man directed by law governeth more indifferently, than multitudes without law, be they never so godly. Moreover one Godly, wise, and learned man is much more hardly moved to any error, than is the multitude, which naturally is prove and bend to the same: in whom not only Philosophers, but singular Divines also have noted great inconstancy and a disposition most unmeet to govern. The similitude ilitude of water returned against the Replier. Your similitude of water holdeth not: for a little water in a gravelly or stony Well or river is not so soon troubled and corrupted, as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and marish grounds. Again, a little water in a running river or Ford is at all times more pure and clear, than is a great quantity in standing Puddelles: to be short, is not the water of those little springs, and Cundite heads, (which being safely locked up, and enclosed in stone and Lead, do minister great relief to whole Cities) much more pleasant, hardlyer corrupted, less troubled, than the great waters in the Thames. Therefore is a little water proceeding from a good Fountain, by stones and Lead kept from things that may hurt it, hardlier putrefied and corrupted, than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Country, than mighty Pools, yea than the Thames itself. So is one wise and prudent man governed and directed by order and by law, further from corruption and error in government, than whole multitudes of people, of what sort soever they be. You further say, that this Ecclesiastical monarchy hath been the cause of discord, etc. I answer, that it hath been the cause of the contrary, until such time as it was turned into tyranny, as by all Ecclesiastical stories and writers it may appear, and namely by these two, Cyprian and Jerome. In all that decretal part. 2. c. 9 quaest. 3. noted in your Margin: there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop. against any form of government used by the archbishop in this Church of England, but in plain and manifest words both the name and office of the archbishop is there maintained and approved. And I wish that the learned Reader would peruse over all that part of Gratian, then should he easily perceive your faithfulness in alleging Authorities. And though it be somewhat tedious, yet that the unlearned also may have some taste of your dealing, I will set down some Canons contained in that part of Gratian. Out of the Council of Pope Martin he citeth this Canon. Per singulas provincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere. etc. In every Province the Bishops must know their Metropolitan to have the chief authority, and that they aught to do nothing without him, according to the old and ancient Canons of our forefathers, for the which cause also the Metropolitan must take upon him nothing presumptuously without the council of other Bishops. And out of the council of Antioch, he hath this. Per singulas provincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet, etc. In every province the Bishops must know their Metropolitan which governeth, to have the chief care of the whole province: and therefore those that have any causes must resort to the Metropolitan city. etc. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superiority and government to the Archbishop and Metropolitan, even the same that we do in this Church, only he denieth that the Metropolitan or Archbishop hath such absolute authority, that he can deal any thing in criminal causes against a Bishop, or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops, which is not against any thing by me affirmed, or contrary to any authority claimed by the Archbishop, for it hath been from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authority can determine any thing in matters doubtful, and not determined by the laws and orders of this Church, to the which the whole realm hath consented. Can. apost. 33. The. 33. Canon of the Apostles quoted in the margin is this: Episcopos singularum gentium scire convenit quis inter eos primus babeatur, quem velut existiment. etc. It behoveth the Bishops of every province to know who is chief among them, whom they must esteem as their head, and do nothing without his knowledge, save such things only as pertain to their own parish and villages, which are under it, neither shall he do any thing without the knowledge of all. For so shall unity be kept and God shall be glorified through Christ in the holy Ghost. What have you got by this Canon? you see here manifestly that in every province or nation there must be one chief Bishop, that is Archbishop, to whom the rest must submit themselves, and do nothing without his knowledge. This is as much as I require: And if this Canon was made by the Apostles (whereof you seem not to doubt) then is the name and authority of an Archbishop, of greater antiquity than you would gladly have it, and the reason and saying of S. Jerome most true. Both of this Canon, and of the Canon of the council of Antioch confirming it, I have spoken before. Your Passim in the margin, if it be meant of such like plac s as this, I grant it: but if of any other popular or Aristocratical state and kind of government, or to the improving of the office and authority of an Archbishop, it will fall out to be nusquam. You say, that it appeareth in the decretals themselves that this kind of government hath been the wellspring of most horrible schism. Show one place: why are you not ashamed to utter manifest untruths? Show one sentence there tending to that end. I have recited some Canons out of that place, and I have showed the intent of Gratian both in them, and in the rest. They all signify that an Archbishop may not do any thing of his own authority without the consent of the other Bishops, which no man denieth, and this is the whole scope of that question. Our peace is in truth and due obedience, we have the true doctrine of the word of God: and the right administration of the Sacraments: and therefore to make contention in this Church, and to disturb the quietness and peat, cannot be but mere schismatical, I will say no worse. Zuinglius in his Ecclesiastes saith, that the Anabaptistes went about to defend their contentions then, after the same manner that you do yours now. But I answer you as he answered them: your contention is not against Infidels, Papists, and such like: but against the faithful, against the true professors of the Gospel, and in the Church of Christ, and therefore as it is of itself wicked, so is it the cause of contempt, disobedience, and much other ungodliness. And the two flintstones may be in such time and place stricken together, that the sparks of fire which cometh from them, may consume and burn the whole city and country too. And surely he is but a mad man that will smite fire to light a candle to see by at noon day, when the sun shines most clearly. Chap. 3. the. 30. Division. T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. If therefore superiority and domination of one above the rest have such force to keep men from schisms, when they be in the truth, it hath as great force to keep them together in error, and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted than many, this power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keeping them in error, if they fall into it, as in the truth, if they are in it. Io. Whitgifte. This is as though you should say, that if a Monarchy be an excellent kind of government, and in deed the best, when the laws rule and not man (as Aristotle saith) then also is it the worst, when affection ruleth and not the law, which is true: for that is the worst state of government which is opposed to the best. But if you will therefore conclude, that a Monarchy is not the best state, your argument hath no reason in it: even so is it in the government of the Church, if the chief governor thereof should follow his own appetite and be ruled by his private affections: but it is far otherwise when he ruleth according to the laws whereunto he himself is subject. Chap. 3. the. 31. Division. T. C. Page 81. Sect. 4. moreover if it be necessary for the keeping of unity in the Church of England, that one Archbishop should be primate over all, why is it not as meet that for the keeping of the whole universal Church, there should be one Archbishop or Bishop over all, and the like necessity of the bishop over A popish reason. all Christendom, as of the bishop of all England, unless peradventure it be more necessary, that there should be one bishop over the universal Church; than over the Church of England, for as much as it is more necessary, that peace should be kept, and schisms be avoided in the universal Church than in the particular church of England. Io. Whitgifte. This is the reason of the Papists for the Pope's supremacy, and you have borrowed The reasons serve not for the Pope that serve for the Archbishop. Caluine. it from them. Wherefore I will answer you as M. Caluine answereth them in his Institutions Cap. 8. Sect. 95. That which is profitable in one nation, cannot by any reason be extended to the whole world, for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation. And a little after, it is even as though a man should affirm, that the whole world may be governed by one King, because one field or town hath but one ruler or Master. And again, that which is of force among few, may not by and by be drawn to the whole world, to the government whereof no one man is sufficient. M. Nowell also answereth Dorman (making the same reason that you do) in these M. Nowell. lib. 3. fol. 321. words. To your third question (sayeth he speaking to Dorman) the lewdest of all why the same proportion may not be kept between the Pope and the rest of the Bishops of Christendom, that is between the Archbishop and the other Bishops of the province? I answer, you might as well ask, why the same proportion may not be kept between one Emperor of all the world, and all the Princes of the world to be under him, that is between the King of one realm and his Lords under him. The reason that the same proportion can not be kept, is first, because there is no like proportion at all between the ability of man's wit and power (being but weak) to govern one province, and his ability to govern the whole Church, and all Churches throughout the world, which no one man can have knowledge of, much less can have ability to rule them. Secondly you can bring no such proportion of antiquity for your Pope to be chief head of the whole Church, as is to be showed for Archbishops to be the chief Bishops in their own provinces, etc. Hitherto M. Nowell. I marvel that you will join with the Papists in so gross a reason. Chap. 3. the. 32. Division. T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England, hath his authority granted of the Prince, the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperor of all Christendom, did grant him his authority over all Churches. But you will say that is a lie, but the Pope will set as good a face, and make as great a show therein, as you do in diverse points here. But admit it to be, yet I say further, that it may come to pass, and it hath been, that there may be one Christian Cesar over all the realms which have Churches. What if he then will give that authority to one over all, that one king granteth in his land, may any man accept and take at his hands such authority? and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority, tell me what fault you can find in him which may not be found in them? Io. Whitgifte. The Pope doth challenge much of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas: but his supremacy and jurisdiction over all Churches he claimeth from Peter, and from Christ: wherein his claim is more intolerable being most false, and his jurisdiction more usurped being wrongfully challenged: you err therefore in that oynt greatly. The Archbishop doth exercise his jurisdiction under the Prince, and by the Prince's authority. For the Prince having the supreme government of the realm, in all causes, and over all people, as she doth exercise the one by the Lord Chancellor, so doth she the other by the Archbishops. Your supposition of one Cesar over all realms that have Churches is but supposed, and therefore of no weight: but admit it were true, yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be over all those Churches, and over one province: the reasons I have alleged before out of M. Caluine, & other, neither is there any man not wilfully blinded, or papistically affected, that seethe not what great diversity there is betwixt one province and many kingdoms: the government of the one, and the government of the other. Si unus duodecim bominibus praefuit, an propterea sequetur unum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici? If one was over twelve men, shall it therefore follow, that one may be appointed over an hundred thousand men? Saith M. Caluine. Chap. 3. the. 33. Division. T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be said that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop, unto all the whole Church, neither is there any one able to do the office of a bishop to the whole Church of England, for when those which have been most excellent in knowledge and wisdom, and most ready and quick, in doing and dispatching matters, being always present, have found enough to do to rule and govern one several congregation: what is he which absent, is able to discharge his duty toward so many thousand churches? And if you take exception, that although they be absent, yet they may do by under ministers, as Archdeacon's, Ehauncellors, Officials, Commissaries, and such other kind of people, what do you else say, than the Pope, which sayeth, that by his Cardinals, & Archbishops, and Legates, and other such like, he doth all things? For with their hands he ruleth all, and by their feet he is present every where, and with their eyes he seethe what is done in all places. Let them take heed therefore, lest if they have a common defence with the Pope, that they be not also joined nearer with him in the cause, than peradventure they be ware of. (a) Who can believe you mean good faith. Truly it is against my will, that I am constrained to make such comparisons, not that I think there is so great diversity between the Popedom and the archbishopric, but because there being great resemblance between them, I mean having regard to the bore functions, without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they uphold, that I say there being great resemblance between them, there is yet as I am persuaded, great difference between the people that execute them. The which good opinion conceived of them, I do most humbly beseech them by the glory of God, by the liberty of the Church purchased by the precious blood of our saviour Christ, and by their own salvation, that they would not deceive, by retaining so hard, such excessive and unjust dominion over the Church of the living God. Io. Whitgifte. But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one province, every several diocese whereof hath a Bishop. And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocese, every several parish whereof hath a several Pastor. The Archbishop hath a general charge over the province to see that unity be kept among the Bishops, and that the Bishops do their duties according to the laws and order of the Church, or else to see them reform according to the said laws & orders, if they shall be complained of to have neglected the same. The like care have the Bishops over the several Pastors of their diocese, and other people. Neither doth their office consist in preaching only, but in governing also: in the respect whereof they are over & above the rest. This office of government may be well executed in one province, so much and so far as by the laws is required, and as is convenient for the state of the Church, but it could not be so over all Christendom. It may be that some Pastors having small charges, and busy heads, may find and procure more matters and controversies than either they be able or willing to compound: such busy Pastors there be in England: but their unquietness, or lack of ability to dispatch those controversies which they themselves are the authors and causes of, doth not prove but that either the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently, and well, that do appertain to their office and calling. So much may they do by under ministers as Archdeacon's, chancellors, etc. as by the rules of the Church are permitted unto them, and may be convenient for the time and people. But the office of preaching, of ordaining ministers, of suppressing heresies and schisms, with such like, they do not commit unto them, but execute them themselves, the which because they cannot do throughout all Churches, as they may in one Province, therefore your reason is no reason. Moreover a Bishop of one diocese or province, may have conference with his Archdeacon's and Chancellor, and be privy to all and singular their doings: So cannot the Pope with his Cardinals, archbishops, and Legates etc. dispersed through out whole Christendom. And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may well govern a province or diocese, and use the heipe of Archdeacon's, chancellors etc. but so cannot the Pope do whole Christendom, what help or deputies soever he have. If against your will you were constrained to make such comparisons, why do you make Difference between the Pope and our Archbishops. them when there is no cause? why do you forge that which is untrue? why do you join together offices which in no point are like. The Pope challengeth authority over all Christendom: so do not our Archbishops. The Pope exalteth himself above Kings and Princes: so do not our Archbishops, but with all reverence acknowledge their subjection to the Prince. The Pope sayeth, that to be subject unto him, is of necessity to salvation, so do not our Archbishops. The Pope maketh his Decrees equal to the word of God, our Archbishops think nothing less of there's. To be short, the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel: they earnestly profess it, and have suffered persecution for it. Therefore your comparison is odious, & your riotous speech more presumptuous than becometh a man pretending your simplicity. Your good opinion conceived of them, is well uttered in your book: what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble? surely even the same that hath falsified Scriptures, and writers in your book: that hath uttered so many proud and contemptuous speeches against your superiors: that hath moved you to make contention in the Church: even spiritus mendax, spiritus arrogantiae & superbiae, a lying spirit, the spirit of arrogancy, and pride, for such fruits cannot proceed from any other spirit. Chap. 3. the. 34. Division. T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Jerome saith that this distinction of a Bishop, & a minister or elder, was from S. Mark his time, unto Dionysius time, whereby M. Doctor would make us believe, that Mark was the author of this distinction: but that cannot be gathered by Jerome's words. For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders, it might (as it falls out oftentimes) be done without the approbation of S. Mark: the words from Mark may be rather taken exclusively, to shut out S. Mark, and the time wherein he lived, than inclusively, to shut him in the time wherein this distinction rose. Howsoever it be, it is certain that S. Mark did not distinguish, and make those things divers, which the holy ghost made all one. For then (which the Lord forbidden) he should make the story of the Gospel, which he written suspected. Io. Whitgifte. This is no answer to Jerome's words, but a dallying with them: the place is evident: he saith, from the time of Mark the Evangelist, whom undoubtedly he would not have named, unless the same manner had been in his time. But be it that the words (from Mark) be taken exclusively (which no man of judgement will grant) yet doth it argue a great antiquity of this distinction, even from the most pure and best time of the Church. It is certain that these things were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appointed: and therefore your (for then etc.) is an ungodly collection, and unbeseeming your person in any respect, to imagine of the glorious Gospel written by that holy Evangelist. Chap. 3. the. 35. Division. T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Again it is to be observed that Jerome sayeth it was so in Alexandria, signifying thereby, An absurd collection. that in other Churches it was not so. And indeed it may appear in divers places of the ancient fathers, that they confounded Priest and Bishop, and took them for all one, as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Any eat, Pius, Telesphorus, Higinus, Xystus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali. Elders, and precedents. Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited, so doth Ambrose in the place alleged before by M. Doctor, and yet it is one thing with us, to be a priest (as M. Doctor speaketh) and an other thing to be a Bishop. Io. Whitgifte. This argument passeth of all that ever I herded, Jerome saith, there was a Bishop The passing Logic of T. C. in Alexandria above the other ministers, from S. Marks time, therefore there was no Bishop in any place else. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and jacob. Ergo, he is no bodies God else: he is the God of the jews, Ergo, not of the Gentiles. There be Bishops in England, Ergo, there are none in any other place. Not marvel it is, though you riot in your Logic, when such stuff is set abroad. Like unto this are the other: Eusebius out of Ireneus, calleth Anitete, Pius, Telesphorus, etc. elders, and precedents, and Cyprian confoundeth Priest, and Bishop, and so doth Ambrose, Ergo, every Priest is such a Bishop as Jerome here speaketh of. These be pretty arguments. Every Bishop is a Priest, but every Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop, Difference betwixt bishop & priest. Hieronymus ad Euagrium. in that meaning that Jerome in this place taketh the name of a Bishop. For his words be these: Nam Alexandria à Marco evangelista usque ad Heraclam etc. At Alexandria from Mark the Evangelist, until Heracla and Dionysius Bishops, the ministers always chose one from among themselves, and placing him in a higher degree of dignity, called him a Bishop: as if an army should make a Captain▪ etc. Neither shall you find this word (Episcopus) commonly used, but for that Priest that is in degree over and above the rest, notwithstanding (Episcopus) be oftentimes called Presbyter, because Presbyter is the more general name: so that M. Doctor saith truly, that it is with us one thing to be a Bishop, an other thing to be a priest, because every Bishop is a Priest, but every Priest is not a Bishop. I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures, but I speak according to the manner and custom of the Church, even since the Apostles time. And this is not only my opinion, but other learned men affirm it in like manner: as M. Bucer in his book De regno Christi, and upon the. 4. Ephes. Whose words I have before rehearsed. Thus you see that M. Doctor's distinction is with better authority confirmed, than you have any to overthrow it. Chap. 3. the. 36. Division. T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. ult. jerusalem was a famous Church, so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth, so was Antioch Rom. 1. and others, where also were great contentions, both in doctrine and otherwise, and yet for avoiding of contention & schisine there, there was no (*) An untruth. one that was ruler of the rest. Therefore we aught rather to follow these Churches being many, in keeping us to the institution of the Apostles, than Alexandria being but one Church and departing from that institution, & if there had been any one set over all the rest in other places, it would have made much for the distinction that Icrome had recited. Io. Whitgifte. james was bishop of jerusalem, and in authority above all other ministers there. Bishops at jerusalem in the Apostles time. Eusebius, lib. 2. cap. 23. Eusebius so reporteth of him out of Egesippus, who lived immediately after the Apostles time, his words out of Egesippus be these: Ecclesiam gubernandam post Apostolos jacobus frater Domini accepit: james the brother of the Lord had the government of the Church after the Apostles, Lib. 2. Cap. 23. And in the beginning of that chapter Eusebius speaking of this james sayeth thus, Cui Hierosolymis ab Apostolis Episcopalis sedes concredita fuerat: to whom the bishops seat at jerusalem was committed by the Apostles. In the first chapter of that book: he sayeth out of Clement, that Peter and john after the ascension of Christ. Constituerunt jacobum justum Hierosolymorum Episcopum, did appoint james the Lib. 2. Ca 1. Just, Bishop of Jerusalem. The same thing do all Ecclesiastical histories and writers (that make any mention of this matter) affirm of him. After james, was Simeon the son of Cleop as appointed Bishop there, as the same Eusebius reporteth, lib. 3. cap. 11. Idem. and lib. 4 cap. 22. Therefore you are greatly deceived in saying that there was no one over the rest at jerusalem: although if there had been none, yet would it not have served your turn, because the Apostles as yet being alive, this office of Bishops was less needful: But it is certain that they placed Bishops in all great and famous Churches, after they had planted them, as Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiastes: and ancient authors do testify. Linus was Bishop of Rome as Eusebius witnesseth Lib. 3. cap. 2. and he lived in Other bishops in the apostles time. Eus. Li. 3. cap. 2. & 4. the Apostles time. Timothy bishop at Ephesus, Titus at Creta, Dyonisius Areopagit at Athens etc. as he also writeth in the same book cap. 4. But this thing is so manifest and so well known to all that read Ecclesiastical histories, that I am sure they will marvel at your gross oversight in denying the same. Wherefore Jerome's distinction standeth. Chap. 3. the. 37. Division. T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 2. But against this distinction of S. Jerome, I will use no other reason than that which Jerome useth in the same epistle to Euagrius. Jerome in that Epistle taketh up very sharply the Archdeacon Jerome speaketh not in that place of an Arch deacon, but of a deacon. that he preferred himself before the Elder, and the reason is, because by the Scripture the Deacon is inferior unto the Elder. Now therefore Jerome himself confessing that by the scripture, a Bishop and an Elder are equal, by Jerome's own reason, the bishop is to be sharply reprehended, because he lifteth himself above the Elder. Io. Whitgifte. Without doubt you forget yourself, else would you not reason in this manner: The Archdeacon is inferior to the elder, therefore the bishop is not superior to the elder in any respect: I see no sequel in this reason, neither yet any likelihood. Besides that, you untruly report of Jerome, for he speaketh of a Deacon, and not of an archdeacon. But it is your manner so to deal: surely I marvel that you will utter so manifest untruths. But if Jerome should so say, yet is your argument nothing: for though an archdeacon be inferior to a minister (whom you call Elder) yet doth not that prove but that there mayé be degrees among the ministers, and that the chiefest of them in authority, may be called a Bishop, as Jerome also in that Epistle declareth. And although Jerome confess that by the scripture, Presbyter and Episcopus is all one, (as in deed they be quoad ministerium.) yet doth he acknowledge a superiority of the Bishop before the minister. For besides these places that I have alleged in my Answer to the Admonition, he says thus in the same Epistle. Presbyter & Episcopus aliud Ad evagr. tatis, aliud dignitatis est nomen, the one is a name of age, and the other of dignity. And a little after: In Episcopo & Presbyter continetur, the Elder or minister is contained in th' Bishop. Therefore no doubt this is Jerome's mind, that a Bishop in degree and dignity is above the minister, though he be one & the self same with him in the office of ministering the word and sacraments: and therefore he saith, presbyter continetur in episcopo: because every Bishop is presbyter, but every presbyter is not Bishop. Chap. 3. the. 38. Division. T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 8. But what helpeth it you that there was a Bishop of Alexandria, which urge an Archbishop, or what avantageth it you, that there was one chief, called a Bishop in every several congregation, which would prove that there aught to be one Bishop chief over a thousand congregations? What could have been brought more strong to pull down the Archbishop out of his throne, then that which jerom faith there, when he affirmeth that the Bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet, hath as great authority and dignity as the Bishop of Rome? Erasmus did see this, and said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, * But in the same place speaking in earnest he a firmeth a much as I razors choir. testingly, that Jerome spoke that of the Bishops of his time, but if the had seen how the metropolitans of our age excel other Bishops, he would have spoken otherwise. And what could have been more fit to have confuted the large dominion and superiority of our realm, than that that Jerome sayeth, when he appointeth the Bishop's sea in an uplandish town, or in a poor village or hamlet, (a) Untrue. declaring thereby that in every town there was a Bishop, and that the Bishop that he speaketh of, differeth nothing at all from an elder, but that the Bishop had the ordaining of the ministers, whereupon it doth appear (which I promised to show) that by this place of Jerome, there is neither name of Archbishop, nor so much as the shadow of his authority, and that the Bishops which are now, have besides the name, no similitude almost with the bishops that were in Jerome's tyme. As for his reason ad Luciferanos, it is the same which he hath ad evagr. and to Titus, and is already answ read. Io. Whitgifte. If this be true that you say, why have you then hitherto sought so to deface this worthy writer? why did you not in the beginning tell us, that this saying of Jerome made nothing against you, because he only speaketh of Pastors in several parishes, and not of one to have charge and government over one whole diocese? But full Jerome's bishop differeth from an elder in dignity and rule. Hier. in Tit. 1. well known you the vanity of this your fancy, & how unlike it is to stand with Jerome's words: For in his commentaries upon the epistle to Titus, he saith that Postque v usquisque eos quos baptizaverat. etc. After that every one did think those to be his, & not Chri stes, whom he had baptised, it was decreed throughout the whole world, that one of the ministers being choose should be set over the rest, unto whom the whole care of the church should aperteyn, and the seeds of schisms be taken away. Do you think that this is meant of the Pastor of every town? To what purpose should Jerome say so? For the pastor of every several town, had from the beginning his a thorite over his flock, without any such constitution. Moreover, there are not in every several congregation many pastors or priests, over whom one should be placed as chief. But Jerome speaketh of a Bishop that must govern the other Priests, and procure that unity be kept among them, and therefore his jurisdiction must of necessity extend to many parishes, because it is over many pastors. He saith likewise, that the care of the whole was committed unto him. In his epistle ad Euagrium, he uttereth his meaning as plainly, For he sayeth, That the Priests did choose one among themselves, whom they placing Idem ad Eubella gr. in a higher degree called a Bishop: Whereby it appeareth that he had authority over many Pastors, and therefore over many congregations, for you will not deny but that every presbyter, that is minister of the word had his several flock. This he declareth more evidently by the examples there used, of soldiers choosing their Captain, for though the Captain before was a common soldier, yet now being hus preferred, he ruleth and governeth the rest of the soldiers, even so the Bishop being before a minister equal with other, yet being choose to that degree, he is their guide and governor, a governor I say of those that did elect him, that ist of Priests or ministers, & therefore of divers congregations. This doth yet more evidently appear in these words of the same Epistle, That one was afterwards choose to rule the rest, it was a remedy against schisms, lest every one drawing to himself the Church, should break the same. And in his book Ibidem. Idem contr Lucifer. contra Luciferianos, he sayeth that except the chief authority were given to one, tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes, there would be as many schisms as priests. By which places it is certain that Jerome's meaning is to have some one in a province or diocese over the rest (properly called a Bishop) who should have chief authority, lest every man in his own several parish being permitted to do what he list, might in the end fill the Church with schisms, ut tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes. And surely it is unpossible to expound Jerome otherwise. But you ask me, what this helpeth for the Archbishop. & c? very much. For if it be so necessary to have one Bishop over divers Priests in every several diocese, for the avoiding of schism and contention, it is also necessary in every province to have an archbish p for the direction of divers Bishops, & the avoiding of schism among them. And therefore saith Jerome again in his epistle ad Rusticum monachum, every ecclesiastical Hiero ad Rusticum. order is subject to her governors. You ask what could have been brought more strong to pull down the Archbishop out of his throne, than that which jerom saith there, when he affirmeth that the bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet, hath as great authority & dignity as the bishop of Rome? I answer, that this nothing at alderogateth from the Archbishop. For it is not denied, but that every bishop, & every minister are equal quoad ministerium, but not quoad ordinem & politiam: & this is that which Jerome says, eiusdem sunt meriti & sacerdotij, they be of the same merit and priesthood that is, their ministery & office in preaching the word, & administering the sacraments, is all one. And their authority also toward such as were under their in isdiction: metropolitans etc. in Jerome his tyme. but he doth nor say, the one Bishop hath not more ample & large jurisdiction than the other, for the contrary of that is manifest. And in S. jeroms time there were metropolitans, Archbishops. etc. as you may read in the deaf see of the Apol. edit. 2. pag. 121. These obscure towns do derogate nothing from the authority of a bishop: for we see it oftentimes come to pass, that the Bishops seat is but in obscure towns, as it is in divers places of England: & yet is the bishop's jurisdiction in his diocese no whit the less. If we respect the places, Canterbury is far inferior to London. And therefore jeroms meaning is, that the place neither addeth any thing, or taketh any thing away from the worthiness, authority, and office of a Bishop. Wheresoever a Bishop is in city or in town, he is of the same authority and worthiness. Erasmus in his Scholies upon that epistle of Jerome hath these words: Certè Metropolitanus Erasmus. habet aliquid dignitatis etc. Surely the Metropolitan hath some dignity & iurisdi tion above the other bishops, therefore that he here maketh the Bishops of base cities equal with the rest, it is to be referred unto the deacons, which in some places were preferred before the ministers, whom he doth in a manner make equal with Bishops. And in an other place he sayeth, that the ministers, succeed into the place of the Apostles, the Bishop into the place of Christ. In this thing therefore are bishops and ministers equal, that wheresoever they are, they are to be preferred before Deacons. Here Erasmus speaketh in good earnest howsoever he jested before. He showeth that these obscure villages or hamlets (as you term them) were cities, and no doubt, as good as either Ely, or Peterborough: but in the respect of Rome, contemptible, as these be in respect of Lonton. And yet the Bishops of every one of them eiusdem meriti & sacer dotij. of the same merit, priesthood & authority. Erasmus also here telleth in what respect he hath made this comparison betwixt Bishops and other ministers, in the respect of Deacons. For both Bishops & Priests are to be preferred equally before Deacons, because of their ministery & office, which is above the office of a Deacon. Nam ex Diacono ordinatur presbyter. For a minister or priest is made of a Deacon, not ex presbytero diaconus, the Deacon of the priest. It is most evident (neither can it be so unknown unto you) the Jerome in all these places means to have one bishop governor of many priests. And therefore this interpretation of yours is without all probability, or shadow of truth, that Hieromes meaning is to have such a Bishop in every town. I trust the reader will note with what vain reasons you first went about to shake The shift of T. C. in his answer to Hierom. the credit of this writer: Then, how without reason, you took upon you to answer his reasons: and now in the end, how unpossible an interpretation you feign of his words: which if he well consider, he shall note in you great audacity, small judgement, and no truth. For the author is of great learning and worthiness, his reasons strong, and his words plain and evident for the authority of the Bishop over the rest of the Clergy. Chap. 3. the 3. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 71. Sect. 2. 3. Chrysostom writing upon the twentieth of Matthew saith, that Chrysostom, the rebellious nature of man caused these distinctions of degrees, that one. should be an Apostle, an other a Bishop, an other a minister, an other a lay man. And that unless there were such distinctions of persons, there could be no discipline. And upon the. 13. to the Romans he saith, that because equality engendereth strife & contention, therefore superiority and degrees of people were appointed. T. C. Page. 83. Sect. 1 What is that to the purpose, that Chrysostom saith, there must be degrees? who denieth that there are degrees of functions? we confess there is, and aught to be a degree of pastors, an other of Doctors, the third of those which are called Elders, the fourth of Deacons. And where he says, there should be one degree of Bishop, an other of a minister, another of the lay man, (*) It proveth that there are degrees among ministers of the word, which you deny. what proveth that for the office of an Archbishop, which is your purpose to show? how often times must you be called ad Rhombum? and that he means nothing less, than to make any such difference between a bishop, and a minister, as is with us, which you would fain make your reader believe, I will sand you to Chrysostom, upon the third chapter. 1. Epistle to Timothy, where he says: the office of a bishop differeth little or nothing from an Elders, and a little after, that a bishop disierreth nothing from an Elder or minister, but by the ordination only. Still M. Doctor goeth forward in kill a dead man, that is in confuting that which all men condemn, and proving that which no man deny h, that there must be superioritte amongst men, and that equality of all men alike confoundeth all, and overthroweth all. Io. Whitgifte. Chrysostom in that place maketh degrees in the ministery, and placeth the Bishop in degree above the minister, which utterly overthroweth your equality. As for your distinction of degrees it hath a small ground in the scripture to warrant it, as can be, and in deed it is but your own invention. For the Pastor, doctor, and elder in office are all one, as the most & best writers think. Howsoever it is, you have them not thus distinguished in the Scripture, that the Pastor should be first, the Doctor next, the Elder third, & the deacon last: and it is strange that you will invent a new order of ministers, without the express warrant of God's word, misliking the same so much in other. This superiority that Chrysostom talketh of, overthroweth that part of the Admonition that I confute, for they do not only disallow the office of the Archbishop, but of the Bishop also, & would have a mere equality among the ministers: this I refel, as well as the other: and indeed the overthrow of this, is the overthrow of the other. And therefore this place of Chrysostom serveth my turn very well, and aptly. Chrysostom upon that. 3. chapter of the first to Timothy, giveth as much superiority to the Bishop as I do: and maketh as much difference betwixt him and the minister: for I grant that quoad ministerium, they be all one, but that there be degrees of dignity, and so saith Chrysostom, that there is little difference betwixta Bishop and a priest, but that a Bishop hath authority to ordain priests, and all other things that the Bishop may do, the priest also may do, that excepted: so that Chrisostome here speaketh only of the ministery of the Bishop, not of his authority, in the ecclesiastical government, for of that he spoke in the place before alledger, where he saith that In: 20. Math. there is one degree of the Bishop, and other of the minister. etc. which distinction of degrees was long before Chrysostom's time, as I have declared. To prove these degrees of superiority among ministers, is to prove the which both the Admonition, & you deny, & which is the ground of this controversy: & therefore I have not herein go about to kill a dead man except you count the ground of your assertion dead. If there must be superiority amongst men, and that equality of all men alike confoundeth all, and overthroweth (as you confess, and is most true) than equality of ministers confoundeth all among them: and therefore it is requisite, that in that state also there be supe iours to avoid confusion: which being granted, what have you to say, either against Archbishops or Bishops, except you have some new devise of your own? which is not unlike, because nothing doth please you but your own. Chap. 3. the. 40. Division. T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 2. This is a notable argument, there must be some superior amongst men, ergo one minister must be superior to an other: again there must be in the ecclesiastical functions some degrees, ergo there must be an archbishop over the whole province, or a Bishop over the whole diocese. And albert M. Doctor taketh great pain to prove that which no man denieth, yet he doth it so 〈◊〉, and so unfitly itly, as that i a man had no better proofs than he bringeth, the degrees of the ecclesiastical functions might fall to the ground. For here to prove the degrees of the ecclesiastical functions he bringeth in that, that Chrysostom saith there must be magistrate and subject, him that commandeth and him that obeyeth. Io. Whitgifte. The argument is good, & followeth very well. For as superiority & government is Superiority convenient among ministers. necessary in all other states & degrees of men, so is it in the ministery also: for ministers be not angels, nor they are not of that perfection, that they may safely be left in their own absolute government. That which Chrysostom in this place speaketh of government in the civil state, the same doth he speak in the. 13. to the Hebrues of the ecclesias ical in like manner: for expounding these words, Parete his qui praesunt vobis. etc. which is understood of Bishops, he saith, that there be three evils which one throw the church, & Chrysost. all other societies. The first whereof is, to have no superior, none to rule: and this he proveth by divers examples, as of a Quire without a chanter, an army of soldiers without a captain, a ship without a master, a lock of sheep without a shepherd. Now if superiority be so needful among the clergy, then why may not one Bishop be over one diocese, & one rchbishop over one Province? Wherefore I conclude thus: It is necessary that among the cler ie some should be in authority over the rest and therefore there may be both Archbishops & Bishops: but I know you will answer that there may be government without these degrees: then say I unto you again, stand not so much in your own c ceyt, this order is most ancient in the Church, it is confirmed by the best and noblest Counsels, it is allowed by the best learned fathers, it hath the pattern from the practice of the Apostles (a l which hath been showed before) it is most meet for this state and kingdom: and therefore be no wilful in a new devise, the trial whereof was never as yet, the manner whereof is unknown to yourself, and the end no doubt mere confusion. Your well-favoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed contempt, I omit here, as I do in other places. Chap. 3. the. 41. Division. T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3 The most therefore that he can conclude of this, for the ministery, is that there must be minister that shall rule, and people that shall be obedient, and hereby he can 1. of prove, that there should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiastical governors, unless he will say peradventure, that as there are under magistrates, and a king above them all, so there should be under ministers, and one minister above all. * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speech of the kind of government. wealth, that there should be one over all: for that there are other good common wealths, wherein many have like power and authority. And further if because there is one king in a land above all, he will conclude there should be one Archbishop over all. I say as I have said, that it is not against any word of God, which I know (although it be inconvenient) but that there may be one Cesar over all the world, and yet I think M. Doctor will not say, that there may be one archbishop over all the world. Io. Whitgifte. Why there aught to be superiority among ministers as well as other. The government of the church in a Christi n common wealth ought to be according to the form there in used. Yes, I will conclude that there aught to be degrees of superiority among the ministers also, because they labour of imperfections as well as other men do, & especally of pride, arrogancy vainglory, which engender schisms, here's es, contentions, as the examples of all times and ages even from the Apostles to this time declare. I am persuaded that the external government of the church under a christian Magistrate, must be according to the kind & form of the government used in the common wealth, else how can you make the Prince supreme governor of all states & causes ecclesiastical? will you so divide the government of the Church from the government of the common wealth, that the one being a monarchy, the other must be a Democraty, or an aristocraty: this were to divide one realm into two, and to spoils the Prince of the one half of her jurisdiction and authority. If you will therefore have the Queen of England rule as Monarch over all her dominions, then must you also give her leave to use one kind and form of government, in all and every part of the same: and so to govern the Church in Ecclesiastical affairs, as she doth the common wealth in civil. But you say, that I must remember that it is not necessary in a common wealth, that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of government. should be one over all: & I say, that you must remember that in this common wealth it is necessary, that one should be over all, except you will transform aswell the state of the kingdom as you would of the church: which is not unlike to be your meaning, for not long after you add that the common wealth must be stamed a 'cording to the church, as the hangyngs to the house, & the government thereof with her government, etc. & not contrary: meaning that the government of the common wealth, aught not to be monarchical, but either democratical, or Aristocratical, because (as you say) the government of the Church aught to be such. What this in time will breed in this common wealth, especially when it cometh to the understanding of the people, who naturally are so desirous of innovations, I refer it to the judgement of those that can and aught best to consider it. The unlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being over all the world, & of one archbishop being over all the world. I have showed before, they be most unlike, & yet this is but a frivolous & vain supposition, & M. Calvin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect. 96. doth say, that it is absurdissimum, most absurd. Chap. 3. the 42. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that there is an equality of all ministers of Equality among ministers touching minist rye. gods word, quoad ministerium, touching the ministery, for they have allike power to preach the word, to minister the sacraments, that is to say, the word preached, or the sacraments ministered, is as effectual in one (in respect of the ministery) as it is in an other. But quoad ordinem & politiam, touching order & government, there always hath been & must be degrees and superiority among them. For the church of God is not a confused congregation, but ruled & directed aswell by discipline & policy in matters of regiment, as by the word of God in matters of faith. T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Now M. Doctor cometh to his old hole, where he would fain hide himself, and with him all the ambition, tyranny, & excess of authorttie which is joined with these functions of archbishop and bishop, as they are now used: & this his hole is, that all the ministers are equal with bishops & Archbishops, as touching the ministery oh the word & sacraments, but not as touching policy & government. The Papists use the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be far from Papistry. distinction for the maintenance of the Pope's tyranny and ambition, and other their hierarchy. M. Doctor hath put out the mark & concealed the name of the Papists, & so with a little change of words, as it were with certain new colours he would deceive us. For the Papists say, that every sir john or hedge Priest hath as great authority to sacrifice, and offer for the quick and the dead, and to minister the Sacraments, as the Pope of Rome hath, but for government, and for order, the Bishop is above a Priest, the archbishop above a bishop, and the Pope above them all. But I have (b) You have no yet declared 〈◊〉, neither can you. declared before out of the Scriptures, h we vain a disrinction it is: and it appeareth out of Cyprian, that as all the Bishops were equal one to another, so he saith that to every one was given a portion of the Lords flock not only to feed with the word and sacraments, but to rule and govern, not as they which shall make any account unto an archbishop, or be judged of him, but as they which can not be judged of any but of God. And Jerome upon Cituz saith, that the elder or minister (c) But you con 〈◊〉 that which followeth. did govern and rule in common with the Bishops, the Church whereof he was elder or minister. Io. Whitgifte. The distinetion (quoad ministerium, & quoad ordinem) tustisyed. Caluine. Beza. Lib. con. cap. 7 art. 12. The distinction is good and true, allowed of the best writers, though the Papists wrongfully apply it. M. Calvin upon the 2. Cor. 10. hath the same distinction. Quamuis (saith he) common sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium, sunt tamen honoris gradus: Although there is one office common to all the ministers of the word, yet are there degrees of honour. M. Beza likewise lib. conf. cap. 7. says thus: that pastors in process of time were distinct into metropolitans, Bishops, and those we now call curates, it was not in therespect of the ministery of the word, but rather in respect of jurisdiction and discipline. Therefore concerning the office of preaching the word and administrating the Sacraments, there is no difference betwixt Archbishops, Bishops, and curates. etc. The same distinction doth Hemingius use in his Enchiridion, 〈◊〉 the. 72. 〈◊〉 of this chapter. as shall be seen hereafter. What say you now? is this a starting hole, or rather a true distinction, allowed by such as are far from Papistry? except you will accuse M Caluine and Beza for Papists. You are not able to improve this distinction with all the learning you boast of: and bitterness of words will not carry away the matter. You have declared nothing tending to the improving of this distinction, & the words both of Cyprian and of Hicrom do manifestly confirm it: for they both would have one chief among the ministers to govern the rest, as it is said before. You deal corruptly in reciting hierom's words: for you have left out his purpose and meaning, I will set them down as they be in deed. Idem est ergo presbyter. etc. Wherefore the minister Heir. ad Tit. 1. and bishop are all one, and before that through the instinct of the devil, there were divisions in religion, and that it was said among the people, I hold of Paul, I of Apollo, and I of Cephas, the churches were ruled in common by the council of the ministers: But after that every one accounted those whom he baptised to be his, and not Christ's, it was decreed throughout the whole world, that one being choose from among the ministers should be placed over the rest, to whom the whole care of the church should appertain, and the seeds of schisms be taken away. Will you not leave off to deal thus guilefully with your Reader? have you no care to deal plainly and simply? Jerome in that place verifieth this distinction, and showeth that it was for order & policy, that among the ministers there was one bishop appointed, ad quem omnia ecclesiae cura pertineret, & schismatum semina tollerentur. And what can be spoken more directly to the purpose? But one thing here I note, that you would be controlled of none but of God, that is, you would be exempted from all authority of man, even as the Pope himself is. Chap. 3. the. 43. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Lin. 4. And therefore well says M. Calvin, in his Institutions cap 8. that the Caluine alloweth superiority. twelve Apostles had one among them to govern the rest, it was no marvel: sore nature requireth it, and the disposition of man wilso have it, that in every company (although they be all equal in power) yet that there be one as governor, by whom the rest may be directed: there is no Court without a Consul, no Senate without a Praetor, no College without a Presidente, no society without a master. Haec Calvin. T. C. Page. 84. Sect. 3 After followeth M. Calvin, a great patron forsooth, of the Archbishop, or of this kind of bishop, which is used amongst us here in England. And here to pass over your strange citations & quotations which you make, to put your answerer to pain, sending him sometimes to Musculus common places for one sentence, to Augustins works, to Chrysostoms' works, to Cyril, to M. Fox, & here sending him to ye.. 8. chapter of the Institutions (*) . as though you had never read Caluins institutions, but took she sentence of some body else, without any examination, whereby it seemeth that you were loath, that ever any man should answer your book, letting I say all this pass: what maketh this either to prove, that there should be one Archbishop over all the ministers in the province, or one Bishop over all in the diocese, that amongst twelve that were gathered together into one place, there was one which ruled the action for which they met. Io. Whitgifte. A practice worthy the noting This is to be obserned throughout your whole book, as I have noted in other places, that when any authority is alleged that pincheth you, than you fall to cavilling by and by I have no where referred you to justinian's code, to Gratian'S decrees, to Augustine's works, to divers counsels, to Theodorete, to the centuries. etc. Without noting either book, Chapter, distinction, number, Canon, or such like, as you usually deal with me: and yet these be far more tedious to read over, than is the. 8. Chap. of calvin's Institutions. I do not remember that I referred you to Augustine, Chrysostom, or any other writers, for any matter in controversy (cyril, Museulus, and M. Fox only in one place excepted) but I quoted the places, as particularly as I cowl. And why will you then so untruly report of me? undoubtedly I never read a book for the quantity of it, so pestered with slanderous reports, false accusations, and contentious deriding speeches, as this your book is. But let it go. divers editions of calvin's institutions. This book of institutions which is distinguished into Chapters and not into books, I read and noted through before you (as it should seem) known whether there were any such book or not, and because I have laboured in it, noted it, and am well acquainted with it, therefore I use it, and follow it, and so will I do still: Neither are you ignorant I am sure, that there be sundry editions of those institutions: although you seem to dissemble the matter in this place, I might say of purpose (for you have answered after your manner places before, out of the same book quoted in like manner) but let it be of ignorance, you take occasion by it, to utter your cynical 〈◊〉, but to your own shame. The place alleged maketh much for my purpose, for it proveth superiority to have 〈◊〉 among the Apostles, and therefore that it may be among ministers, which you deny▪ and I affirm: which also being granted (as it cannot be denied) whatsoever I affirm either of archbishops or Bishops, will soon be proned. But let us hear the proof of this new devise of yours in soluting this, and such like places: that one ruled the action. etc. Chap. 3. the. 44. Division. T. C. Page. 84. Sect. 3 And that it may appear what superiority it is, which is lawful amongst the ministers, and what it is that M. Caluine speaketh of, what also the fathers and counsels do mean, when they give more to the Bishop of any one Church, than to the elder of the same Church, and that no man be deceived by the name of governor, or ruler over the rest, to fansic any such authority and domination or Lordship, as we see used in our Church, it is to be understanded, that amongst the pastors, elders and beacons of every particular Church, and in the meetings and companies of the ministers, or elders of divers Churches (*) This is a devise never hard or before. there was one choose by the voices and suffrages of them all, or the most pair, which did propound the matters that were to be handied, whether they were difficulties to be soluted, or punishments and censures to be decreed upon those which had faulted, or whether there were elections to be made, or what other matter soever occasion was given to entreat of: the which also gathered the voices and reasons of those which had interest to speak in such cases, which also did pronounce according to the number of the voices which were given, which was also the mouth of the rest, to admonish, or to comfort, or to rebuke sharply, such as were to receule admonishment, consolation, or rebuke, and which in a word did moderate that whole action, which was done for the time they were assembled. Which thing we do not deny, may be, but affirm that it is fit and necessary to be, to the avoiding of confusion. Io. Whitgifte. All this is spoken of your own head, and a devise without proof or reason as yet, and contrary to the testimonies of all histories, Counsels and fathers: affirmed by no learned writer, as it may appear by that which I have hitherto alleged out of the canons attributed to the Apostles, the Council also of Nice, Antioch, Arelat, Carthage, Chalcedon, likewise out of Cyprian, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Gregory Nazian. Ambrose, Jerome, Socrates, Sozom. Theodoret, Calvin, Illiricus: All which manifestly declare that the office of an Archbishop, and jurisdiction of a Bishop is permanent, and affixed to certain places, not movable, nor during one action only. And undoubtedly I marvel what urgeth you to such absurd and unlearned paradoxes: unless it be ignorance and lack of reading. But let us hear your reasons. Chap. 3. the. 45. Division. T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 3 For it were an absurd hearing that many should at once attempt to speak. Neither could it A needless proof. be done without great reproach, that many men beginning to speak, some should be bidden to hold their peace, which would come to pass, if there should be no order kept, nor none to appoint when every one should speak, or not, to put them to silence, when they attempted confusedly to speak, and out of order. Moreover when many ministers meet together, and in so great diversity of gifts as the Lord hath given to his Church, there be found that excel in memory, facility of tongue, and expedition or quickness to dispatch matters more than the rest: and therefore it is fit, that the brethren, that have that dexterity, should especially be preferred unto this office, that the action may be the better, and more speedily made an end of. Io. Whitgifte. Surely and your devise of salving it, is as absurd: for there would be as great contention at such elections, as there is confusion in the former equality: and the rather because there is none to direct them therein. For who shall call them together before this election be made? where shall they meet? who shall declare unto them the cause of their meeting? or what remedy if they cannot agree of some one that hath this dexterity, but are drawn into divers parts, some thinking one most meet, and some another, other some the third. & c? how if there be sects and schisms among them, as there is at this time? an hundredth inconveniences are there in this devise of yours: and to tell you the truth, it may be used in places where there is no government, no laws, no form of a common wealth, no order: But in a kingdom, in a Church vnd r civil government, in a place of order. etc. it is the very high way to subversion and confusion. Chap. 3. the. 46. Division. T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 1 And if any man will call this (*) And what scripture hau you for this. a rule or presidentship, and him that executeth this office precedent or moderator, or a governor, we will not strive, so that it be with these cautions, that he be not called simply governor, or moderator, but governor or moderator of that action, and for that time, and subject to the orders that others be, and to be censured by the company of the brethren, as well as others, if he be judged any way faulty. And that after that action ended, and meeting dissolved, he sit him down in his old place, and set himself in equal estate with the rest of the ministers. Thirdly, that this government or presidentship, or whatsoever like name you will give it, be not so tied unto that minister, but that at the next meeting it shall be lawful to take another, if another be thought meeter. Io. Whitgifte. These cautions are meet for such a devise, and apt for a tumultuous company and a congregation of proud and arrogant people, that cannot abide any superiority or government. This I am well assured of, and it is evident both by that which is already spoken, and that which is to be said hereafter, that there can neither pattern nor bishops governors simply, not of one action only. form be found of it in any Church since the Apostles time, recorded in any writer of credit, but the clean contrary for ecclesiastical writers do both call Bishops governors simply, and manifestly also declare, that their office of government was not for one action only, but during their life or at the lest during their continuance in that seat or bishopric▪ and it is plain by that which I have said before, that the office of the Metropolitan (which was to call Synods, and to moderate them, to ordain The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ixed to a place. bishops, or at the leas to consent thereunto, to suppress schisms and such like) was affixed to the place and bishop of the same, as to Rome, Con tantinople, Alexandria, etc. this do all the old canons declare, as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the council of Nice, the. 9 of the council of Antioch, and the. 5. of the general council of Constantinople, the. 12 of the second council of Carthage, the. 21. Concilij Milevitani: the. 11. of the general council of Chalcedon: to be short all these testimonies and examples alleged of me before, out of Cyprian. etc. and the continual practice of the Church. And therefore such new cautions here by you set down, be only meet for such a strange and misshaped platform and kind of government as is by you and your faction devised. Chap. 3. the. 47. Division. T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and policy of the Church, if we will see a lively image, a d perfect pattern, let us set before ou eyes the most ancient and gospellike Church that ever was or shall be. In the first of the Acts the Church being gathered together, for the election of an Apostle into the place of judas the traitor, when as the interest of election belonged unto all, and to the Apostles especially above the rest, out of the whole company Peter rises up. telleth the cause of their coming together, with what cautions and qualities they aught to choose another, conceiveth the prayer, whereby the help of God in that election, and his direction is begged, and no doubt ex cuted the resis we of the things which pertained unto the whole action. In the. . of the Acts all the Apostles are accused of drunkenness. Peter answer d for them all, wipeth away the infamy they were charged with. But you will say, where are the voices of the rest, which did choose Peter unto this? (*) What is this but a mere con 〈◊〉, or ather an imagine answer oh yo r owe e. First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not down every circumstance, and then surely you do Peter great injury, that ask whether he were choose unto it: for is it to be thought, that Peter would thrust in himself to this office or dignity, without the consent and allowance of his fellows, and prevent his fellows of this preheininence? undoubtedly if it had not been done arrogantly, yet it must needs hau a great show of arrogancy, if he had done this without the consent of his fellows. And here you shall hear what the scholiast says which gathereth the judgement of greek diumes, (a) This is not poken oh cho ing eter to be speaker, but of lecting Mathias, which pertained eyned not to Peter alone. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (speaking of Peter) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Behold how he doth all with their common consent. And if any man hereupon will say, that Peter exercised domination over the rest, or got any are hapostleship, beside that the whole story of the Acts of the Apostles, and his whole course of life doth refute that, the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place, saith he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, imp riously, nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, with dominion or power: further I will admonish him to take heed, lest if he s rive so far for the Archbishop, he slide or ever he be ware into the entes of the Papists, which use these places to prove that Peter had authority, and rule over the rest of the Apostles. Io. Whitgifte. This is a rod to beat yourself with, for it is evident even by these words of yours, that your devise is most farthest from the Apostolical form: for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolical assemblies. such assemblies is the chief, speaketh the first and moderateth the rest, in which respect most of the old ecclesiastical writers count him the chief of the Apos les, neither do the la e writers dissent from them in that point, and yet is there no danger of sliding into the Papists tents, who by this would prove the Pope's supremacy, whose arguments you have used, and I have confuted before. To prevent subtilely that question which neither yo do , nor can answer, that is, where it is in scripture mentioned that at every action, or at any time Peter was choose to speak before the rest, or to govern the action? ou say, that first I must know that the scripture setteth not down, every circumstance, and then that I do Peter great injury that ask whether he were choose to it. etc. To the first I answer, that you aught to know, how wicked and ungodly a thing it is, to ground the alteration of any lawful kind of g vernment so long continued, and in the best times of the Church practised, upon your own fond devise and conjectures, without any ground of scripture, yea to make that Peter not chosen in every action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot find in the whole scripture, but the clean contrary. For show me one piece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter, to have been at any time in any action choose to direct the action: I can show you the contrary, especially in the second of the Acts, where Peter suddenly answered with a notable apology in the presence of the Apostles, the accusation of drunkenness laid against him, and them: neither can it be that he should expect the voices of the rest, to choose him to be the chief, for that time in that action. Whosoever shall well consider the first of the Acts, and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peter's speaking, as he shall perceive that this was Peter's peculiar office, and always appertaining unto him, from the ascension of Christ to his dying day, so shall he also easily understand, that he was not at any time choose to that office by voices, much less at every particular meeting or singular action. And dare you presume upon vain conjectures, without warrant of scripture, to build the foundation of your kind of government, which you before said is a matter of faith and salvation? is not this to open a way to unwritten veri ies, and fantastical interpretatious? if your words be of such weight with the Reader, that because you speak them, therefore he will be aeve them, per me▪ licebit: but this I will assure him of, that he shall believe that, that is neither grounded upon Scripture, nor any learned or ancient authority. To the second, that is, that I do Peter great injury. etc. I say that I do him no injury at all, when I affirm that of him, that the scripture doth, and presume not of mine own brain, for the maintaining of an evil cause, to imagine that of him, which I have myself devised besides the word of God, as you do most manifestly. Peter did not thrust himself into any office or dignity, which was not appoyuted unto him by God, neither did he otherwise use himself therein, than his office and duty required: and it is impiety thus to dally and trifle in God's matters. We are w ll assured in scripture that Peter did this, and had this pre-eminence, and therefore you must know that he was lawfully called unto it, and did lawfully execute it. The Greek Scholiast says, that Peter in such assemblies did conclude nothing The scholiast playeth not the part which is laid upon him. without the consent of the rest, the which also the scripture itself doth plainly declare. But the Greek Scholiast no where saith that Peter was at every assembly, or at any time choose by the voices of the rest, to speak first, and to moderate the action: which is your assertion. For in the place by you cited, he speaketh not of the election of Peter to his prolocutorship, but of the choosing of Mathias to the Apostleship. Wherein Peter took not that pre-eminence to himself to appoint him alone, but communicated the matter with the rest of the disciples. So that you have either wittingly, or ignorantly applied the Scholiast to a wrong matter. It is true that Peter did nothing imperiously, nothing with dominion or power: no more doth any man that executeth lawful jurisdiction, and governeth by law, quitie, and order, not not the king himself: for in superiority there is humility, and in rule and authority there is servitude: as I have before showed in the exposition of the places in the. 20 of Matth. 22. Luke. etc. And yet doth the Greek Scholiast in the same place say, that Peter rose up and not lames, as being more fervent, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Tract. 1. and as having received the presidentship of the Apostles. Your admo ishment of falling into the tents of the Papists, how necessary it is for yourself, why h use their manner of reasoning upon this example of Peter, and upon devised interpretations of the scripture, I have touched before. As for myself I refuse no warning▪ But I trust it is not so necessary, for I know what they have said, & what they can say in that matter. Chap. 3. the. 48. Division. T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 4. And that it may be understanded, that this inoderate rule, void of all pomp and outward show, was not perpetual, nor all wastyed unto one man, which were the last points of the c utions I put before, turn unto ye.. 15. of the Acts, where is showed, how with the rest of the church, the Apostles, and amongst them Peter, being assembled, decide a great controversy, (a) This 〈◊〉 aga nst your 〈◊〉 as 〈◊〉 appear. james he Apostle, and not Peter, moderated and governed the whole action, when as after other had said their judgements, and namely Paul and Barnabas, and Peter, he in the end in the name oh all, pronounced the sentence, and that whereof the rest agreed, and had disputed unto, and the residue rested in that judgement: the which also may likewise appear in the. 21. of the Acts. Io. Whitgifte. Peter moderate ur oh ong as the Apo tles nco ogyther. It is evident by the story of the Acts of the Apostles, that this function remained to Peter, so long as the Apostles continued together, and that he did execute the same when soever they met: and therefore it is untrue that this off ce was not tied to one man: the. 15. of the Acts helpeth you nothing: for even there, Peter keepeth his accustomed manner in making the irst oration: and in that place it may appear, that he did it as chief in that assembly, for the text says, that when there had been great Acts. 15. disputation, Peter rose up and said unto them. etc. so that Peter as one having authority to appease the tumult and bitter contention, rose up and said unto them. etc. Then spoke Barnabas and Paul, after them, james, not as moderator or gover our of the whole action, but as one having interest to speak as the rest of the Apostles had, and because he had spoken that which the rest well liked of, therefore they consented to his opinion, and judgement. This is no more to give pre-eminence oh james in moderating that action, than it is to give the speakership in the Parliament to him that speaketh last in a matter, and whose oration hath most persuaded, of whom also the whole house consenteth. So that Peter keepeth his prerog tive still for any thing that is here spoken to the contrary: which may also evidently appear by this, The of ice oh the peaker oh 〈◊〉. that when there was great contention among them about the matter, the cause whereof is like to be, for that they did not understand the state of the cause, Peter stood up, & in hoc maximè insistit, ut statum quaestionis demonstraret, and stood especially upon this point, that he might declare the state of the question, as M. Caluine says, which is the office of the speaker or moderator: wherefore not james, but Peter did moderate the action. But best as you would have it, that james did moderate the action: it maketh most against The example oh james 〈◊〉 the Re plyer. you, for if we believe the ancient writers, and namely the Greek Scholiast upon the. 15. of the Acts, james was now Bishop of jerusalem: and therefore the Synod being ithin his charge, it was not 〈◊〉, that he according to his office, should moderate the same, as other bishops did in their several Churches. The. 21. of the Acts is nothing to your purpose, but Paul coming to jerusalem, went with certain other in unto james, and told him and all the rest that were gathered together, what God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministration. What is this to prove your purpose? Peter is not here, and james was now 〈◊〉 op of jerusalem, as the note in the margin of the ible printed at Geneva doth testify. The place in no respect proveth your assertion, but the contrary: for there is no doubt, but that james was the chief governor of the Church of jerusalem in all actions, during his life, after that he was once placed in the Bishopric. You talk in another place of raking of Doctors to prove my purpose, but if these be not raking of scriptures, gathered together to no purpose, for the confirming of your fond devices, I know not what you should mean by the name of raking. Chap. 3. the. 49. Division. T. C. Page. 85. Sect. 4. This is he which is called the Bishop in every Church, this is he also, whom justin whereof mention is made afterwards, called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And finally this is that great Archbyshoppricke, and great bishopric, that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on. This order and pre-eminence, 〈◊〉 Apostles tune, and those that were near them kept, and the nearer they came to the Apostles 〈◊〉, the nearer they kept them to this order, & the farther of they were from those tunes, until the discovering of the son of perdition, the further off were they from this moderation, and the nearet they came to that tyranny, and ambitious power, which oppressed and overlayed the Church of God. Io. Whitgifte. Indeed this is one part of the office of the Archbishop and Bishop, but not the whole, no more than it was of james being Bishop of jerusalem, nor of him whom justine calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: But your chief purpose now is to prove that this office is not perpetual, but changeable at every action, and durable only continuing that action, which how sound you have done, and with what strange arguments every child that hath discretion may judge. Chap. 3. the. 50. Division. T. C. Page. 86. Sect. 1 And therefore M. Caluine, doth warily say, that one amongst the Apostles indefinitely, not any one singular person, as Peter, had the moderation and rule of the other: and further shadoweth out what rule that was, by the example of the (*) The Archbishop contenteth himself with less authori ie than the County suls had. Consul of Rome, whose authority was to gather the Senate together, and to tell of the matters which were to be handled, to gather the voices, to pronounce the sentence. And although the Antichrist of Rome had perverted all good order, and taken all liberty of the Church into his hands, the Cardinals, archbishops, and Bishops, yet there are some cold and light footings of it in our synods, which are held with the Parliament: where amongst all the ministers which are assembled, out of all the whole realm, by the more part of voices, one is choose which should go before the rest, propound the causes, gather the voices, and be as it were the mouth of the whole company, whom they term the prolocutor. Such great force hath the truth that in the utter ruins of Popery, it could never be so pulled up by the roots, that a man could never know the place thereof no more, or that it should not leave such marks and prints behind it, whereby it might afterwards recover itself, and come again to the knowledge of men. Io. Whitgifte. It followeth in the same place of M. Caluine immediately. Sic nihil absurdi esset Instit. cap. 8. si fateremur Apostolos detulisse Petro talem primatum. Sed quod inter paucos valet non protenus trahendum est ad universum o bem terrarum, ad quem regendum nemo unus sufficit. So should it be no absurdity if we should confess that the Apostles did give this kind of pre-eminence unto Peter. But yet that which availeth among few, must not by and by be drawn to the whole world, to the ruling whereof no one man can suffice. You see therefore that M. Caluine speaketh of one singular person, even of Peter himself, and yet doth he not slide into the tents of the Papists, but teacheth rather how to beware of them, and yet to acknowledge the truth of Peter. We give no greater authority either to Archbishop or Bishop, than the The example of T. C. against himself. Consuls, and their authority. Consul, or Praetor had among the Romans, or a Master and precedent in a college: for the Consuls (upon whose authority you seem so much to stay) were appointed to govern the common wealth of the Romans, after they had banished their kings, and they were called Consuls, quia plurimum reipublicae consulebant: because they profited the common wealth very much: whose authority in this did differ from the authority of a king, that there might be appeal from them, and that they could not put to death any citizen of Rome, without the consent of the people: but they might otherwise punish them, and hast them into prison: They had authority also to make free th' see that were in bondage, they were of the greatest honour (si nullus esset Dictat r) if there were no Dictator) in the common wealth, and their authority was offorce, not only in the Senate, but else where. And it is manifest that they had not only authority to call the Senate, to tell those matters that were to be handled, and to take their voices, but to command that none should departed out of the City, that had any five ycè in the Senate and to elect Senators. etc. It appeareth that you little knew what the office of a Consul was, when you writ this. If you take advantage of this, that the office of the Consul was annual and not perpetual, yet it helpeth not you anything, for he was moderator and ruler not of one action only, but of so many, as were by occasion, either ordinary, or extraordinary in the whole year of is consulship. For my part I do not think that the Archbishop, either hath, or aught to have that authority in his province, that the Consul had in Rome. A Master of a College (the which example also Master Caluine doth use) hath a Masters of Colleges and their authority. perpetual office, he is chief governor of that society, and all the members thereof own duty and obedience unto him, as to their head: he hath authority to puni he and to see laws executed: neither do I think that either Archbishop or Bishop claimeth greater authority and jurisdiction over their Provinces and Diocese, than is due to the Master within his College. And therefore those examples of Master Caluine do confute your assertion, they do in no point confirm it. In Synods though there be choose a prolocutor for the inferior sort of the Clergy, yet doth the Archbishop retain still both his office, place, and authority: even as the Prince doth, or the Lord Keeper, notwithstanding it be permitted to the lower house of Parliament to choose them a Speaker, and therefore this is nothing, nor alleged to any purpose: except you will say that in the civil state all was equal, and that there was no superior, but in everyaction some choose by the multitude, to govern the action, because in the lower house of Parliament they choose a Speaker, whose office continueth but during that Parliament. You pass not what you allege, so you may seem to allege something. Chap. 3. the. 51. Division. T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 2. Now you see what authority we allow amongst the Ministers, both in their several Churches, or in provincial Synods, or national, or general or what so ever other meetings shall be advised of, for the profit and edifying of the Church, and withal you see, that a we are far from this tyranny, and excessive power which now is in the Church, so we are by the grace of God as far from confusion and disorder, wherein you travel so much to make us to seem guilty. Io. Whitgifte. I see you allow much more authority in words, that is in the examples you have used, than you will willingly acknowledge: I see also that this authority, which you call tyranny and excessive, is moderate and lawful, and according both to the laws of God and man. To conclude, I see that you are as far from order, and a right form of government, as you are from modesty and due obedience, and that the end you shoot at, is nothing else but a mere confusion, not only of the Church, but of the common wealth also: the government whereof you would have framed, according to your platform of the Church: that is, you would have it brought from a Monarchy, to a popular or Aristocratical kind of government, even as you would have the Church. Chap. 3. the. 52. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. 1 Paul was superior both to Timothy and Titus, as it may easily be gathered out of his Epistles written unto them. T. C. Page. 86. Sect. 3 M. Doctor reasoneth again, that Paul an Apostle, and in the highest degree of ministery▪ They are not yet proved Evangelists. was superior to Timothy and Titus Evangelists, and so in a lower degree of ministery, therefore one Minister is superior to another, one Bishop to another Bishop, which are all one office▪ and one function. As if I should say my Lord Mayor of London is above the Sheriffs, therefore one Sheriff is superior to another. Io. Whitgifte. There was no difference betwixt them in respect of preaching the Gospel and The example oh 〈◊〉 proveth ritie among that ministers of the word. administering the sacraments, but in respect of government, therefore among Ministers of the word, and Sacraments there may be degrees of dignity, and superiority, and one may rule over another: which is the ground of my assertion, and the overthrow of yours. And this doth the example of Paul prove evidently, even as the example of my Lord Mayor doth prove, that there is superiority in government among the Citizens. For thus you should have reasoned: as my Lord Mayor his authority above the rest of the Citizens, declareth, that there is superiority in the civil state, and one subject to another, even so Paul's superiority over Timothy, Titus, and other Ministers declareth, that there may be superiority in the state Ecclesiastical, and that one of them may and aught to be subject to another: thus you should have applied the similitude if you had truly applied it. Chap. 3. the. 53. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. 2. Titus had superiority over all the other pastors & Ministers which Titus had superiority. were in Creta: for he had potestatem constituendi oppidatim presbyteros: ad Tit. . The which place M. Caluine expounding, saith on this sort, Discimus ex hoc loco. etc. welearne of this place (says he) that there was not such equality Caluine confessem superiority among ministers. among the Ministers of the Church, but that one both in authority, and council did rule over another, T. C. Page. 86. Sect. 3 Again another argument he hath of the same strength. Titus being an Evangelist was superior to all the pastors in Crete, which was a degree under the Evangelists, therefore one 〈◊〉▪ must be superior unto another pastor. And that he was superior he proveth, because he had authority ordain pastors: so that the print of the Archbishop is so deeply set in his head, that he 〈◊〉 he 〈◊〉 imagine nothing, but that Titus should be Archbishop of all Creta. Io. Whitgifte. Titus was a Bishop as it shall be proved: and you have not one word in Scripture of his being an Evangelist: it is Erasmus and Pelican, two famous men, that imagine Titus, to have been Archbishop of Creta: scoff at them. Chap. 3. the. 54. Division. T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 4. I have showed before, how these words are to be taken of saint Paul. And for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth us with the authority of Caluine so often, I will send him to calvin's own interpretation upon this place, where he (*) You shift of M. calvin's place for superiority amongst the Clergy, by flying to another place of election of Ministers. showeth that Titus did not ordain by his own authority: For saint Paul would not grant Titus leave to do that which he himself would not, and showeth that to say that Titus should make the election of Pastors by himself, is to give unto him a princely authority, and to take away the election from the Church, and the judgement of the insufficiency of the Minister from the company of the pastors, which were (says he) to profane the whole government of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. This is to set Caluine against Caluine, and not to answer him: and yet this is nothing contrary to that which I have alleged out of him: for in the place that I have alleged he gathereth upon these words ut constituas oppidatìm presbyteros. The shifts of the replier. etc. that there was not such equality among the Ministers of the Church, but that one both in authority, and Council did rule over another. You to avoid this testimony of Caluine for superiority, tell me that Caluine saith upon this place, that Titus did not ordain Ministers by his own authority. etc. which is no answer to the place that I have alleged, but a very quarrel picked out, to avoid the answering of it. Master Caluine saith that among the Ministers there was one ruled over another, authoritate & consilio: by authority and Council. And he doth gather it out of the text by me alleged: either answer it, or give place unto it, or deny it. Of electing Ministers I have spoken before, it is now out of place to speak of it again, and it is to no purpose, but to shifted of an Answer. Chap. 3. the. 55. Division. T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 5. I marvel therefore what M. Doctor means, to be so busy with M. Caluine, and to seek confirmation of his Archbishop and Bishop at him, which would have shaken at the naming of the one, and trembled at the office of the other, unless it be because he would fain have his plaster, where he received his wound. But I bore assure him, that in his garden he shall never find the herb that will heal him. And because that the Scriptures, when they make for our cause, receive this answer commonly, that they served but for the Apostles times, and Master calvin's authority will weigh nothing as I think with M. Doctor, when he is alleged by us against him, I will send him to the Greek saint choliast, which upon this place of Titus saith after this sort. He would not (speaking of saint Paul) have the whole Isle of Crete, ministered and governed by one, but that every one should have his proper charge and care: for so should Titus have a lighter labour and the people that are governed, should enjoy greater attendance of the pastor, whilst he that teacheth them doth not run about the government of many congregations, but attendeth unto one and garnisheth that. Io. Whitgifte. What opinion Master Caluine hath of archbishops, and of Superiority amongst Pastors and Ministers, may appear in his words that I have alleged in my Answer. I think Master Caluine never uttered in word or writing his misliking of the present government of this Church of England, by archbishops and Bishops, what he hath spoken against the abuse of them in the Pope's Church, is not to be wrested against the right use of them in the true Church of Christ. I have answered the Scriptures by you alleged, truly, and directly. You have not as yet urged me with that authority of Master Caluine, that I have so shifted of, as you have done this last. The Scholiast means that every City should have his Pastor, in the Isle of Creta, and that Titus should govern them as Bishop, not as having the whole Titus Archbishop. and sole charge of every several town or City: which may evidently appear to be true, by these words of Theodoret placed in the same author. Titus was a notable Diseiple of Paul, but was ordained Bishop of Creta, which was a very large Isle, & Theodoret. in arg. Epist. Tit. apud Scholiast. it was permitted & committed unto him, that he might ordain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Bishops that were under him. Whereby it may be gathered that every City in Creta had a Bishop, which had the several charge, and that Titus governed them as Archbishop. The like doth Chrysostom (whom the Greek Scholiast doth especially follow) affirm of Timothy in. 1. Tim. 5. upon these words adversus presbyterum. etc. Timotheo credita fuerat ecclesia, imò gens ferè tota Asiatica: The Church, yea almost Chrysost. the whole people of Asia was committed to Timothy. But what need I use many words, when Chrysostom himself affirmeth the same directly of Titus. 1. Idem. ad Titum: neque eius profectò illi. etc. Truly Paul would not have committed the whole Isle to him, neither would he have commanded those things to be supplied which were wanting, (for he saith that thou mightest correct those things which are wanting) neither would he have committed unto him the judgement of so many Bishops, if he had not trusted him very well. Chap. 3. the. 56. Division. T. C. Page. 87. Sect. 1 Now M. Doctor may see by this, that Titus was not as he fansyeth, the Archbishop of all Crete: but that he had one flock, whereupon for the time he was there, he attended, and that where it is said he ordained Ministers: it is nothing else but that he was the chief, and the moderator in the election of the ministers, as I have declared before by many examples. And it is no marvel, although the rest granted him this preheunnence, when he had both most excellent gifts, and was a degree above the Pastors, being an Evangelist. Io. Whitgifte. This I may see, that first you have no conscience in falsifying and corrupting of authors: Secondly, that you speak contraries, even in these few lines: for you say that Titus had one flock in Creta, whereupon he did attend for the time he T. C. contrary to himself. was there▪ which must needs prove him to be a Pastor: and yet you afterwards deny him to be a Pastor, affirming him to be an Evangelist, and you take the office of an Evangelist to be so distinct from the office of a Pastor, that they may not meet together in one man. Thirdly, I see that you confidently take upon you, to expound Paul's meaning against his plain words, and against the judgement of the old interpreters, and diverse of the new, as I have showed before in the election of Ministers. Besides these, I see nothing answered to this example of Titus. Chap. 3. the. 57 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. 3 Timothy bore rule over all the other Ministers of the Church Timothy's authority. of Ephesus: for Paul saith unto him. 1. Timo. 5. adversus presbyterum accusationem. etc. Against a Minister receive no accusation, unless there be two or three witnesses. In which words Paul maketh him a judge over the rest of the Ministers. T. C. Page. 87. Sect. 2. Unto the place of Timothy, where he willeth him not to admit an accusation against an Elder, under two or three witnesses, I answer as▪ I have done before to the place of Titus: that is, that as the ordination of the Pastors is attributed unto▪ Titus, and Timothy, because they governed, and moderated that action, and were the first in it, so also is the deposing, or other censures of them, and that for as much as he writeth his Epistles unto Timothy and Titus, he telleth them how they should behave themselves in their office, and doth not shut out other from this censure and judgement. And it is more agreeable to the inscription of the Epistles that he should say admit not thou, or ordain not thou, writing unto one: than if he should say ordain not you, or admit not you, as if he should writ to many, for so should neither the ending agreed with the beginning, nor the midst with them both. And if this be a good rule, that because Paul biddeth Timothy and Titus to judge of the faults of the pastors, and to ordain Pastors, therefore none else did but they: then (*) A meres▪ vill. whereas saint Paul biddeth Timothy that he should command, and teach, that godliness is profitable to all things, and admonisheth him to be an example of the whole flock, by your reason he will have no other of the Ministers of Ephesus, or of the Isle of Creta, to teach that doctrine, or to be examples to their flocks, and an hundredth such things in the Epistles of Timothy and Titus, which although they be there particularly directed unto Timothy and Titus, yet do they agreed, and are common to them, with all other Ministers, yea sometimes unto the whole flock. Io. Whitgifte. You have certain common shifts, to put of such places as you can not answer, among which this is one, that you use in this place. But it will not serve, being grounded neither upon authority nor reason. These words of saint Paul in deed be not spoken to Timothy alone, but to all other Bishops of like authority: for that which is prescribed to Timothy is also prescribed to all other in the like function, which argueth that this authority given to Timothy over all the Ministers of the Church of Ephesus, doth pertain also to all other bishops, over the Ministers of their several Diecesse. But as saint Paul in these Epistles writeth only to bishops, and Pastors, so are the precepts given therein properly pertaining to the office of Bishops and Pastors, and therefore not to be wrested to any other. And how can the Papists more grossly abuse the Scriptures, in interpreting them to serve their turn, and to shift of their authority alleged against them, than you do in this and such other places, against the whole scope of the Epistle, and the plain and evident words of the text? for what is this, but to give Timothy superiority and government over the other Ministers of Ephesus, to say unto him, adversus presbyterum, Against a Minister receive no occusation & c? and as this authority of judgement is not only given unto Timothy, but to all Bishops, of like calling, so that also of teaching (that godliness is profitable to all things. etc.) pertaineth to all Ministers of the word generally, and not to Timothy alone. This is only the difference, that the first is common to Timothy with all other Bishops of like jurisdiction: the other common to him with all other ministers of the word. You know that every Pastor, or other Minister of the word, hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the word under him, that it may be said unto him adversus presbyteros. etc. as it is here said to Timothy, for I have proved before that presbyter doth signify the Ministers of the word and Sacraments, and shall have occasion to speak more of it hereafter. You say that there is an hundredth such things in the Epistles of Timothy and Titus▪ I think that there is not one hundredth several precepts in all the three Epistles. These stout and hyperbolical brags, with so manifest resisting of the plain sense and meaning of the Scriptures, argueth an evil conscience, and a mind so addicted to error, that it will not be reform. Many things in these Epistles pertain to all Christians, many things be proper to Bishops, such as Timothy was, and many common to all Ministers. But this adversus presbyteros▪ etc. must needs to proper be those that have under them other Ministers, committed to their government, which every Pastor hath not. Chap. 3. the. 58. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. 3 And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proveth Timothy his superiority Epiphanius. over the rest, by this self same place. T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3 As for Epiphanius, * This is your practice to discredit the author that speaketh against you. it is known of what authority he is in this place, when as by Aerius sides, he goeth about to prick at the Apostle▪ whilst he goeth about to confute the Apostle, which maketh a distinction and difference between those which the Apostle maketh one, that is a Bishop and elder, and to spare the credit of Epiphanius, it were better lay that opinion upon some Pseudepiphanius, which we may do not without great probability, seeing (*) Augustine saith, that the Ad quod vult deum. true Epiphamus uttereth all after a story fashion, and doth not use any disputation, or reasoning for the truth against the falsehood, and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons, the choice whereof M. Doctor hath taken. Io. Whitgifte. I have not herded any probable reason alleged of any, why these books of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra. 80. haereses, not counterfeit. should be suspected, whether they be his or not, seeing they be both learned and very ancient, mentioned also of sundry old writers. But to omit all other proofs I will only use the judgement (at this time) of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in such matters, because they have diligently and carefully laboured in them: their opinion of these books of Epiphanius, Cent. 4 cap. 10. is this, Nunc de scriptis. etc. Now we will speak of his books: of the which that work against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the four score heresies is most noble: which book he himself in his Epistle to Acacius, and Paulus Ministers, And in his book called Anacephaleosis, calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc. Of the which writing Augustine in his book and quod-vult-deum, maketh this mention. Our Epiphanius Bishop of Cyrus (saith he) which died not long since, speaking of four score heresies, written also himself six Books making mention of all things after an Historical manner, & disputing nothing either against the falsehood, or with the truth: They be but short books, and if they were all made in one, yet were it not to be compared to ours, or to diverse other men's books in length. Out of the which words it is evident, that Augustine neither had, nor at any time did see that work which Epiphanius entitled Panarium, for Epiphanius is very long in recounting the history, as concerning the beginning, the endeavour & country of the heretics, the occasion of the heresy, the success, increase, and such like throughout every heresy. Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures, and the interpretation of them: wherefore it should seem that Augustine had belike only the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of books of Epiphanius, which he doth therefore call short books, or at the lest, had his book called Anacephaleosis, (which is the sum of his work called Panarium) Cornarius that writeth Cornarius. the Preface before this book of Epiphanius, is of the same judgement, and addeth these words: Wherefore either Augustine did not see this work of Epiphanius, or the right work of Augustine is not extant, but lost, or else Augustine did not in deed perform that which he promised. I can read of none that doubteth whether these books were Epiphanius his, or no. And certainly this kind of answering is next the worst, especially when it is used against such approved authors. And because all men may understand, what Epiphanius words and reasons be Aerius heresy in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop & priell▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉. haeres. 75▪ (which in deed pinch you very near, for he calleth you heretics) I will declare them as I have there found them. First he setteth down the heresy of Aenrius in these words: His talk was more outrageous than becomed a man: and he said, what is a Bishop to a Priest? he nothing differeth from him: for there is but one order, and the same honour and dignity. The Bishop layeth on his hands, and so doth the Priest: the Bishop ministereth baptism, and so doth the priest: the Bishop saith divine service, and so doth the Priest: the Bishop sitteth in his throne, and so doth the Priest. In this he hath deceived many, and they use him for their captain. Then doth he a little after confute this heresy with Aerius reasons, on this sort: To say that a Bishop and a Priest is equal, how can it be possible? for the order of Bishops, is the begetter of fathers, for it engendereth fathers to the Church: the order of Priests not being able to beget fathers, doth beget sons to the Church, by the sacrament of Baptism, but not fathers or teachers: and how is it possible for him to ordain a Priest, not having imposition of hands to elect, or to say that he is equal with a Bishop? but phantasticalness and emulation deceived the foresaid Aërius: he proveth his error, and the error of those that hear him by this, that the Apostle writ to Priests and Deacons, and did not writ to Bishops. And to the Bishop he saith: neglect not the gift that is in thee, which thou hast received by the hands of the Presbytery. And again in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons: wherefore (saith he) a Bishop and a Priest is all one: and he knoweth not, which is ignorant of the sequel of the truth, and hath not read profound stories, that when the preaching was but newly begun, the holy Apostle writ according to the state of things as they were then: for where there were Bishops appointed he writ to Bishops and Deacons: for the Apostle could not by and by at the first appoint all things: for there was need of Priests and Deacons, because by those two, ecclesiastical matters may be complete. And where there was not any found worthy a Bishopric, there the place remained without a Bishop, but where there was need, and worthy men to be Bishops, there were Bishops appointed. And when there was not so many that there could be found amongst them meet to be Priests, they were content with one Bishop in an appointed place, but it is unpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon, and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons should be where the Bishop was, for the ministery. So did the Church receive the fullness of dispensation, such was then the state and condition of the places. For every thing had not the perfection from the beginning, but in process of time those things which were necessary to perfection were added. etc. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop, and who is a Priest, when he saith to Timothy that was a Bishop, chide not a Priest, but exhort him as a father: what should a Bishop have to do, not to chide a Priest, if he had not authority above a Priest. As he also saith again, against a Priest admit no accusation suddenly, without two or three witnesses, and he said not to any Priest, admit no accusation against a Bishop: neither did he writ to any Priest, that he should not rebuke a Bishop. Thus mayest thou see good Reader, that it is not for naught, that T. C. so storms against Epiphanius, and so unreverently useth him. But I will give him as much cause to deal in like manner with Augustine, who August. ad Quodvult. in this matter fully joineth with Epiphanius: and in that book of his, de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum (quoted by T. C. in his margin) attributeth this also as heresy to the said Acrius, adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was, because he himself was not made Bishop. Chap. 3. the. 59 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this word (presbyter) in this place of the Apostle, signifieth a minister of the word, both Ambrose, Caluine, and other learned writers declare. T. C. Page. 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose, Caluine, and other godly writers, to prove that the minister is understanded by the word Elder or Presbyter, he keepeth his old wont, by bringing sticks into the wood, and proving always that which no man denieth, and yet with the minister of the word, he also understandeth the Elder of the Church which ruleth, and doth not labour in the word: But therein is not the matter, for I do grant that by Presbyter the minister of the word is understanded, & yet nothing proved of that which M. Doctor would so fain prove. Io. Whitgifte. I add this interpretation, that the Reader may understand Timothy to have authority over Bishops and Ministers of the word, lest you by cavilling should shift off this place, with your signification of Seniors, which were not ministers of the word, as you say. All this while have I looked for the performance of your promise, to prove that That Timothy was Bishop. Timothy and Titus were no Bishops: But because I perceive that you are content to forget it, I will here perform mine (lest I fall into the same fault with you) repeating only that which I have before added to my answer in the 2. edition, lest I should put the Reader both to cost and pains in searching for it there. First therefore that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus, the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle. two Epistles written unto him declareth, wherein is contained the office and duty of a Bishop, and divers precepts peculiarly pertaining to that function, as it is manifest: neither were those Epistles written to Timothy for the instruction of other only, but for the instruction of himself also, as the whole course of both the Epistles do declare, and all learned expositors confess. Secondly, the subscription of the second Epistle is this: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 2 The subscription. The second (Epistle) was written from Rome to Timothy, who was ordained the first Bishop of the Church of Ephesus, when Paul appeared before the Emperor Nero the second time. Which although it be left out in some Greek Testaments, yet is it in the most, the best, and the ancientest, yea almost in all: neither is this a sufficient answer to say, that the subscription of some one or two Epistles seem to be untrue, therefore this is untrue: For the subscription, as it is (no doubt) of great antiquity, so is it consonant to all old ancient authority. Thirdly, the universal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus. 3 Consent of histories. Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saith, that Timothy was the first Bishop of Ephesus. Dorotheus who lived in Dioclesian's time, writeth that Paul made him Bishop of Ephesus. Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. saith, that Paul made him Bishop of Ephesus, before he written his first Epistle unto him. Jerome in catalogue. scripto. Ecclesi. saith, that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paul. Isidorus de Patribus novi Testamenti, saith also that he was Bishop of Ephesus. Antoninus' part. 1. titulo. 6. cap. 1. affirmeth the same out of Polycrates. So doth Supplementum chroni. So doth also Volaterane, lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum. And all the Histories that I have read, which make any mention of him. Historia Magdel. centu. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita joan. evang. hath these words: Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem: It is certain that Paul appointed Timothy Pastor of the Church of Ephesus. Surely it is the general consent of all histories, that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus. Fourthly, the fathers affirm the same. 4 Content of fathers. Dionysius Areopagita (so called of some men) who lived in the Apostles time, writeth his book De divinis nominibus, to Timothy Bishop of Ephesus. Epiphanius lib. 3. tom. 1. affirmeth that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus. Ambrose saith the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothy. Chrysostom in his argument of the same Epistle giveth this reason why Paul of all his Disciples writ only to Timothy and Titus, because he had committed to them the government and care of the Church: and the other he carried about with him. The same Chrysostom upon the fourth to the Ephe. speaking of Pastors and Doctors, useth Timothy and Titus for an example. Occumenius like wise upon the fourth to the Ephe. calleth Timothy and Titus Bishops. And upon. 1. Timoth. 1. he saith, that Paul ordained Timothy Bishop of Ephesus. And in the fifth Chapter upon these words, Manus citò nemini imponas. he saith, Mandate de ordinationibus, Episcopo enim scribebat: he giveth precepts of ordaining, for he written to a Bishop. Theodoret, upon the first to Timothy, affirmeth in plain words, that Timothy had cure of souls committed unto him. But to be short, there is not one old writer which speaking of this matter, doth not testify that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus. Last of all, I prove him to be Bishop there, by the consent of the late writers. 5 Consent of late writers. Erasmus in his annotations, saith that Paul made him Bishop: so saith he likewise in his Paraphr. 1. Timoth. 4. Pelican saith the same. 1. Tim. 1. Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesiastes, saith directly that Timothy was a Bishop▪ Bucer saith the same, writing upon the. 4. chapter of the Epistle to the Ephe. Caluine upon. 1. Tim. 1. calleth him Pastor of the Church of Ephesus. And in the 1. Timoth. 4. expounding these words, Ne donum quod in te est. etc. he saith, Spiritus sanctus oraculo Timotheum destinaverat, ut in ordinem pastorum cooptaretur: The holy Ghost by oracle did appoint Timothy, that he should be choose into the order of Pastors. And in the. 2. Timoth. 4. saith, that he did excel Vulgares pastors, common Pastors. meaning that he was an excellent Pastor, endued with more singular and notable gifts, and of greater authority than the common sort of Pastors be. And in the same chapter speaking of Paul's sending for Timothy from Ephesus to Rome, he saith, That there was no small cause why Paul sent for Timothy from that Church which he ruled and governed, and that so far off: Hereby we may gather (saith he) how profitable conference is with such men: for it might be profitable to all Churches, which Timothy might learn in a small time: so that the absence of half a year, or a whole year, is nothing in comparison of the commodity that cometh thereby. And again in the same place he saith, That Paul sent Tichicus to Ephesus, when he sent for Timothy to Rome, in the mean time to supply Tymothies' absence. By all these places it is manifest that Caluine taketh Timothy to be Pastor & Bishop of Ephesus, as I have beforesaid. Bullinger upon these words also, ne neglexeris quod in te est donum, etc noteth three things to be observed in the ordering of a Bishop: and proveth thereby that Timothy was lawfully called to his Bishopric. And upon these words. 2. Tim. 1. Quamobrem commonefacio te ut suscites donum. etc. he saith, that per donum Dei, Paul understandeth the gift of Prophesying, & functionem Episcopalem, the office of a Bishop to the which the Lord called Timothy, but by the ministery of Paul. What can be spoken more plainer? Illyricus in his epistle dedicatory to the new Testament saith, that Paul praised Timothy his Bishop, and in his Preface to the epistle written to Timothy, he calleth Timothy and Titus praestantes doctores, multarumque ecclesiarum Episcopos: Notable Doctors, and Bishops of many Churches. Of the same judgement is Musculus, and all the rest of the late writers that I have read, one only excepted, who notwithstanding in effect confesseth also that he was Bishop at Ephesus: for in his annotations. 1. Tim. 4. upon these words, usquedum venero. etc. he saith, that when Paul sent for the ministers of Ephesus to Miletum. Acts. 20. he sent for Timothy especially. Cuius ministros (meaning of Ephesus) ac proinde Timotheum inprimis Miletum accersivit. But it is manifest Act. 20. that they were all Pastors and Bishops: therefore Timothy was a Bishop. The same author upon these words. 1. Timoth. 5. adversus presbyterum. etc. saith, Timotheum in Ephesino presbyterio tum fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 1. Antistiten, ut vocat justinus. And addeth, that it is manifest by Cyprian, that the Bishop did rule in the College of Seniors. Then if he that was chief in the College of Seniors, was a Bishop, and Timothy was chief in the College of Seniors, it must needs follow that Timothy was a Bishop. But it may appear how little learning and learned men be esteemed of those, which to maintain contention, are not ashamed to deny that which all learned men agree upon. The chief reasons to the contrary answered. Their reasons as in number they be not many, so in substance they be nothing: I will recite the chief, and leave the rest to children to be discussed. The first, is taken out of the. 2. Ti. 4. where Paul saith to Timothy, Opus perage 1 The place. 2. Tim. 4. answered. The work of an Evangelist. Euangelistae: do the work of an Evangelist. Their reason is this: Paul biddeth Timothy do the work of an Evangelist, Ergo, Timothy was not Bishop. First therefore we must search out what Opus Euangelistae is, and then try whether it be incident to the office of a Bishop, or no. Bullinger upon that place saith, that he doth the work of an Evangelist, which preacheth the Gospel purely, and is not by any persecutions or adversity driven from his calling, Hemingius saith, that opus Euangelistae, generally taken, is to preach the Gospel. Musculus in locis commun. ticulo de verbi ministris, saith, that he is evangelista, either that preacheth, or that writeth the Gospel, and that Paul in the first sense speaketh to Timothy, saying, opus fac evangelistae. And in the same place among other things that Paul requireth of a Bishop, he affirmeth this to be one, ut opus peragat Euangelistae. So saith Illyricus likewise. Zuinglius also is of the same judgement in his book called Ecclesiastes, and proveth by that text of Paul, that the work of an Evangelist and of a Bishop is all one. Now how this reason doth follow, Paul did bid Timothy preach the Gospel purely and constantly, Ergo, Timothy was not a Bishop, let every man judge. The second reason is taken out of the. 4. to the Ephe. Et ipse dedit alios quidem Apostolos, 2 The place Ephe. 4. answered. alios verò Prophetas, alios autem Euangelistas, alios autem pastors ac doctores: He therefore gave some to be Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers. The reason is framed on this sort: An Evangelist and a Bishop were distinct offices, and could not be both joined in one. But Timothy was an Evangelist, Ergo, he was not a Bishop. This argument is very feeble in every The mayor false. part: For first the mayor is utterly false, for those offices named by Paul were not so distinct, but that divers of them may concur in one man, as may easily be proved. Paul was an Apostle and also a Doctor. 2. Timoth. 1 Matthew and john being Apostles were also Evangelists, as the consent of all writers doth testify. Timothy was according to M. Beza his judgement both an Evangelist and also a prophet: Look his notes in the fourth chap. of the first to Timothy. Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesiastes, saith, that an Evangelist is nothing else but a Bishop or a pastor, as it is manifest (saith he) by the words of Paul which he speaketh to Timothy, saying, opus fac Euangelistae, and Timothy at that time when Paul writ this Epistle unto him, was a Bishop: And therefore it is certain that according to Fall his sentence, the office of an Evangelist and of a Bishop is all one. These be the very words of Zuinglius. Bullinger expounding this place in the fourth to the Ephe. hath these words: There is no man which seethe not these names to be confounded, and one to be taken for an other: for an Apostle is also a Prophet, a Doctor, an Evangelist, a Minister, and a Bishop: and a Bishop is an Evangelist and a Prophet: A Prophet is a Doctor, a Minister, and an Evangelist. Therefore the Apostle Paul by these sundry names, doth signify these divers gifts which God hath bestowed upon his Church to salvation. And in that he so often useth this disjunction; alios atque alios, he hath signified that all gifts are not given to one man, but that divers men have divers gifts of the spirit, whereof he hath spoken more in the. 12. to the Rom. and the. 1. to the Cor. 12. chapter. Hitherto Bullinger. Pelican in the same place is of the same judgement. These offices therefore or gifts may well concur in one man, so that the mayor is false, and this conclusion followeth not. Timothy was an Evangelist, Ergo, he was no Bishop. The minor (which is this, Timothy was an Evangelist) is very doubtful: For The mind doubtful, first it may be doubted what an Evangelist is. The common opinion of old writers, and also of divers late writers is, that those were properly called Evangelists which writ the Gospels. Other say, that he is an Evangelist which preacheth the Gospel. Some say that he was an Evangelist that was occupied in teaching the people plainly and simply. Caluine and some other think, that they were next unto the Apostles in degree, and helpers of them, and such as supplied their office oftentimes. divers other opinions there are of Evangelists, and scarce two agreed in one opinion touching the office of an Evangelist. The most say (which also the etymology of the name doth import) that those were Evangelists which either preached or writ the Gospel. Saint Augustine in his second book contra Faustum Manichae. writeth hereof on this sort: Narratores originis, factorum, dictorum, passionum domini nostri jesu Christi propriè dicti sunt Euangelistae: They are properly called Evangelists, which are the declarers of the birth, deeds, sayings, and sufferings of our Lord and saviour jesus Christ Which may be done both by preaching and writing the Gospel, as I said before. Now if Timothy be an Evangelist because he preached the Gospel, there is no cause why he may not be a Bishop also. And it is certain that when Paul said unto him, do the work of an Evangelist, he meant the preaching of the Gospel. If an Evangelist be taken in any other signification, how can it be proved that Timothy was an Evangelist? For this proveth it not, fac opus Euangelistae, a man may do the work of an Evangelist though he be not an Evangelist, a man may do the work of a pastor, though he be not a pastor. To be short the conclusion is not necessary, howsoever the premises be true, for The conclu sion not necessary. although it should be granted that both the mayor and minor were true, yet the conclusion doth not follow: for Timothy might first be an Evangelist, and after a Bishop, as Zuinglius in his book called Ecclesiastes, saith, That Philip the Evangelist being a Deacon, was afterward Bishop and pastor of Caesarea: james the younger being an Apostle, as Jerome and all the old fathers do testify, was after Bishop of jerusalem, and there remained: and divers of the Apostles when they left off going from place to place, become in the end Bishops, and remained in one place, as it appeareth in old histories. So that although one man could not be both an Evangelist and a Bishop at one time, and if it be granted that Timothy was an Evangelist, yet doth it not prove but that he was a Bishop also. But certain it is, that one man at one time might be both an Evangelist and a Bishop: and most certain it is that Timothy was a Bishop, how certain soever it be whether he were an Evangelist, or no. But here it may be said that Timothy no more returned to Ephesus, after he had been the second time with Paul at Rome, and therefore not to be like that he was B shop there. This argument is only conjectural, and of no force to prove any such matter. Howbeit if we will credit stories, whereby in such cases we must be directed, it is certain that Timothy returned to Ephesus, & there died. Dorotheus saith that he died at Ephesus, and was there buried. Polycrates testifieth that he was stoned to death at Ephesus. Isidorus in his book de Patribus novi Testamenti, writeth that he was buried at Ephesus in the mount Pyon. simeon Metaphrastes testifieth the same. Nicephorus li. 10. ca 〈◊〉. testifieth, that julian the Apostara did torment one Artemius for translating the bones of Andrew, Luke, and Timothy from Patra, Achaia, and Ephesus, to Constantinople. But it is certain that Andrew was crucified at Patra by Aegeas the Proconsul: and ancient writers testify that Luke was buried in Achaia: therefore the bones that were brought from Ephesus, must needs be Timothy's. Hereby it may appear that Timothy not only returned from Rome to Ephesus, but also continued there even to his death. And therefore certain it is that he was Bishop at Ephesus. But now to my purpose. Chap. 3. the. 60. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 72. Sect. ult. Ignatius who was S. john his scholar, and lived in Chrystes Ignatius. time, in his Epistle ad Trallianos, speaketh thus of the authority of a Bishop over the rest: Quid aliud est Episcopus quàm quidam obtinens principatum, The bishop's uthoritie. & potestatem supra omnes? What is a Bishop, but one having power and rule over all? And in his Epistle ad Smyrnenses, he writeth on this sort: Honora quidem Deum ut authorem universorum & Dominum: Episcopum autem, ut Sacerdotum Principem, imagis 'em Dei ferentem: Dei quidem per Principatum: Christi verò per Sacerdotium. Honour God as the author and Lord of all things, and a Bishop as the chief of Priests, bearing the Image of God: of God because of his superiority: of Christ by reason of his Priesthood. And a little after: Let say men be subject to Deacons, Deacons to Priests: and Priests to Bishops, the Bishop to Christ. And again: Let no man do any thing which pertaineth to the Church, without the consent of the Bishop. And again: He that attempteth to do any thing without the Bishop, breaketh peace, and confoundeth good order. The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos. These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. &. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus. T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no marvel although you take up the authors of the Admonition for want of Logic, for you utter great skill yourself in writing, which keep no order, but confound your Reader in that thing which even the common Logic of the country, which is reason, might have directed you in: for what a confusion of times is this, to begin with Cyprian, and then come to Jerome and Chrysostom, and after to the Scripture, and back again to Ignatius that was before Cyprian: which times are ill disposed of you, and that in a matter wherein it stood you upon to have observed the order of the times. Io. Whitgifte. Be patiented a while, the matter is not great, the Authors be known, and the The order observed in placing the authorities in the answer. antiquity of them, my mind is of the matter: and there is reason why I should thus place them. Cyprian telleth the necessity of such superiority, and so doth Chrysostom: Jerome, the cause and the original: Paul, Timothy, and Titus be examples hereof: Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superiority in the Church, even from the Apostles. Now first to prove the name of these offices not to be Antichristian, then to show the necessity of the offices, thirdly the cause, and last of all to declare the use of the same to have been in the Church even from S. Paul's time to this hour, is to keep a better order, than you shall be able to disorder, with all the Logic, Rhetoric, and hot Eloquence you have. Chap. 3. the. 61. Division. T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place, it is sufficiently answered before, in that which was answered to Cyprian his place, for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule over all, he means no more all in the province, than in all the world, but means that flock and congregation, whereof he is Bishop or minister. And when be calleth him Prince of the priests, although the title be to excessive and big, condemned by Cyprian and the council of Carthage, yet he means no more the prince of all in the diocese as we take it, or of the province, than he means the Prince of all the priests in the world, but he means those fellow ministers and elders, that had the rule and government of that particular Church and congregation, whereof he is a Bishop, as the great churches have for the most part, both Elders which govern only, and ministers also to aid one an other, and the principality that he which they called the Bishop had over the rest, hath been before at large declared. Io. Whitgifte. You very lightly shake of Ignatius words, but they have more pith in them, if it please you better to consider of them. For he maketh degrees of ministers, and the Bishop to be the chief: he placeth Deacons under Priests, and Priests under Bishops, so that he giveth to the Bishop superiority and government over both Priests and Deacons, which is the ground of this cause: and it being granted (as it must needs, neither can this authority of Ignatius be avoided) Aerius Heresy falls, and so doth your whole assertion. What is meant by Prince of Priests, Ignatius himself declareth, saying: Obtinens principatum & potestatem supra omnes: having chiefty and power over all. How this name may be well used, I have showed before, where I have also declared the meaning of Cyprians words, uttered in the heretical Council of Carthage, and therefore not counted in the number of those Counsels. Chap. 3. the. 62. Division. T. C. Pag. 88 Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember, that whilst he thus reasoneth for the authority of the Bishop, he overthroweth his Archbishop quite and clean. For Ignatius will have none above the Bishop but Christ, and he will have an Archbishop. I see a man cannot well serve two masters, but either he must displease the one and please the other, or by pleasing of one offend the other. For M. Doctor would fain please and uphold both, and yet his proo es are such, that every prop that he setteth under one, is an axe to strike at the other. Io. Whitgifte. I remember it very well: and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop, and that therefore there may be superiority among Bishops, and yet nothing detracted from the words of Ignatius, I know likewise that as well the one as the other is condemned by you: and I am well assured that the proof of the one is the proof of the other, and therefore. M. Doctor may well serve two masters, but they be such as be not only not contrary, one to the other, but so nearly linked and joined together, that what soever pleaseth the one, doth also please the other. M. Doctor's props and proofs are such: as M. T. C. is compelled to use railing & flouting, in stead of answering, which is a shift, but how honest and Christian let the world judge. Chap. 3. the. 63. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 73. Sect. 1 justinus Martyr one of the most ancient writers of the Greeks, justine Martyr. in his second Apology ad Antoninum Pium, alloweth this superiority, & calleth him that bore rule over the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. T. C. Pag. 88 Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor delighteth always where he might fetch at the fountain, to be raking in ditches, he needed not to have go to justine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, when as S. Paul calleth 1. Tim. 5. the ministers and Elders by this title. And if this place of justine make for an Archbishop, then in stead of an Archbishop in every province we shall have one in every congregation. For justine declareth there, the leyturgie or manner of serving God that was in every church used of the Christians. And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & see whether there be any resemblance in the world between him and an Archbishop. For he placeth his office to be in preaching, in conceiving prayers, in ministering of the sacraments: of any commandment which he had over the rest of the ministers, or of any such privileges as the Archbishop hath, he maketh not one word. It may be that the same might have the pre-eminence of calling the rest together, and propounding the matter to the rest of the company, & such like, as is before declared. As soon as ever you found 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, you snatched that by and by, and went your ways and so deceive yourself and others. But if you had read the whole treatise you should have found that he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the people, for thus it is written in the same apology, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Afterwards bread is brought to the precedent of the brethren, calling the people as S. Paul doth continually brethren: And therefore these are (a) Nay, they are yours, and like to the rest. M. Doctor's arguments out of Martyr's place. There was a minister which did stand before, or was precedent of the rest in every particular Church and congregation, therefore there was an Archbishop over all the province. And again there was one which ruled the people in every congregation, therefore there was one that ruled all the ministers throughout the whole province. And albeit things were in great purity in the days that justine lived, in respect of the times which followed, (b) Antiquum obtinet. yet as there was in other things which appear in his works, and even in the ministration of the Sacraments spoken of in that place corruption, in that they mingled water and wine together, so even in the ministery there began to peep out some thing which went from the simplicity of the gospel: as that the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was common to the Elders with the ministers of the word, was (as it seemeth) appropriated unto one. Io. Whitgifte. Though notable & famous doctors be ditches with T. C. yet are they pleasant and clear rivers with men of more liberal sciences. S. Paul 1 Timoth. 5. hath these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc. which derogate nothing from any thing, that I have alleged, but justifieth the same, for there it signifieth rule & government, but yet in justine it signifieth some one that had the chief rule and government over the rest, as M. Beza noteth upon these words, 1. Ti. 5. Aduersus presbyterum etc. Praeterea Beza. notandun est ex hoc loco Timotheum in Ephesino Presbyterio tum fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est, Antistitem ut vocat justinus. Furthermore it is to be noted out of this place that Timothy in the presbytery, or college of ministers at Ephesus was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is to say, the prelate or Bishop, as justinus calleth it. You may say unto him as well as to me, that he delighteth where he might search at the fountain, to be raking in ditches, because he might have had the same words spoken of all ministers in the same chapter of that Epistle to Timothy. Furthermore that justinus Martyr doth use this word for him that hath authority 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over ministers aswell as over the people. Idem. over the rest, not only of the people, but of such also as be presbyteri: the same M. Beza testifieth upon the first to the Philip. saying: Haec igitur olim erat Episcoporum appellatio, donec qui politiae causa reliquis fratribus in caetu praeerat, quem justinus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocat peculiariter dici Episcopus coepit. This therefore was the common name of Bishops, until he which for policy sake did govern the rest in the company, whom justine calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, began to be called peculiarly a Bishop. In which word's M. Beza testifieth that he whom justinus called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did govern as well the other ministers, as he did the people. And whosoever doth duly consider justines' words, & peruse that whole place, he shall easily understand, that those whom he there calleth Brethren, were ministers & Deacons: for afterward speaking of the people, he calleth them by the name of people, as it is there to be seen. I know that justine speaketh of their manner of liturgy, but that doth not improve any thing that I have affirmed, for I speak of the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in that signification that justine doth use it, which is for one that doth govern the rest. Wherefore this is my Argument, there was one among the ministers in justines' time that did rule and govern the rest: Ergo, there was then superiority among the ministers of the Church, and one was above an other, which is the overthrow of your ground of equality, at the which I shoot: and the which being overthrown, the superiority of Bishops and Archbishops is soon proved. And again I say, that in justines' time there was one that governed the rest of the ministers, Ergo, there may be one to do the same now in like manner. These be my reasons, as for yours they be like to the rest of your own. But your best refuge is to discredit the Author, which you do in justine, as you have done in the rest. There is no antiquity of any credit with you, not not in in a matter of History as this is. For justinus doth but declare the manner used in the Church in his time. It is well, that in the end you confess this name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to signify in justine the authority of one minister: This because you are constrained to acknowledge, you will do it with nipping and biting the Author, after your manner. Ignatius who was before justine, as you have herded, useth a more lofty word, for he doth call him, Princeps Sacerdotum: the Prince or chief of Priests. Chap. 3. the. 64. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 73. Sect. 1 Cyrillus calleth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. cyril. T. C. Pag. 88 Sect. 3 An other of M. Doctor's reasons, for to prove the Archbishop, is that, cyril maketh mention of an high priest, where unto I answer, that he that bringeth in a priest into the church, goeth about to bury our saviour Christ: for although it might be proved that the word Priest were the same with the Greeks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, yet (as shall appear in his place) is the use of this word (priest) for a minister of the Gospel very dangerous. And as for him that bringeth in an high priest into the Church, he goeth about to put our saviour Christ out of his office, who is proved in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest, and that there can be no more as long as the world endureth. And yet if all this were granted, you are not yet come to that which you desire to prove, that is an Archbishop. For if you look in (*) In what book. . Theodoret you shall find this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifieth the high priesthood, to be nothing else but a byshopric and in the seventh chapter of that book, and so forth divers times, you shall have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken for a Bishop, as speaking of the council of Nice, he saith that there was 318. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 high priests. Now I think you will not say there were 318. Archbishops, if you do, you are confuted, by all Ecclesiastical writers that ever I read, which speaking of them calleth them Bishops. Io. Whitgifte. This name Priest is usuallly applied to the minister of the Gospel, in all Histories, fathers and writers of antiquity. And the most of the latest writers do use it, and make no great serupulositie in it, neither doth the name Priest, bury our Saviour Christ, as long as it is used for a minister of the Gospel: neither is there any danger in it at all, as long as the office is lawful. Not only cyril useth this name (high Priest) but Tertull. also in his book De Tertull. Baptismo, where he sayeth that Episcopus, is, summus sacerdos, The Bishop is the high Priest, and in like manner Theodorete, as you here say, and yet none of them meant to derogate any thing from the office of Christ. I told you before how names proper to Christ, may be also attributed to men: this being granted, I have as much as I desire: for as the Bishop is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the respect of other Priests that be inferior unto him, so is the chief Bishop called Archiepiscopus, in respect of other Bishops that be governed and directed by him. And as among the ministers there is one chief which is called a Bishop, so among the Bishops there is one chief also that is called an Archbishop: and this is that ordo that Augustine speaketh of, as I have said in my Answer to the Admonition, in the words of M. Fox. Chap. 3. the. 65. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 73. Sect 2. Theodoretus, li. 5. ca 28. writeth that Chrysostom being the Bishop Theodoret of Chrysostom. of Constantinople, did not only rule that Church, but the Churches also in Thracia in Asia, and in Pontus. T. C. Pag. 88 Sect 4. Chrysostom followeth, which as M. Doctor saith, ruled not only the church of Constantinople, but the churches of Thracia, Asia, & Pontus, and he sayeth it out of Theodorete. But herein it may appear, that either M. Doctor hath a very evil conscience in falsifying writers, and that in the points which lie in controversy, (*) Or else you pluck yourself by the nose. or else he hath taken his stuff of certain, at the second hand without any examination of it at all. For here he hath set down in stead of (had care of the churches of Thracia, etc.) ruled the churches, the Greek is, (a) The words of Theodoret clipped. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, it is translated also (prospexit): so that it appeareth he fetched it neither from Theodorete in Greeke nor in Latin. And what is this to prove an Archbishop, that he had care of these churches: there is no minister but aught to have care over all the churches through christendom, and to show that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them, by writing or by visiting them, (b) What scripture expresseth these conditions and cautions. if the necessity so require, and it is thought good by the churches, and leave obtained of the place where he is minister, upon some notable and especial cause, being some man of singular gifts, whose learning and credit may profit much to the bringing to pass of that thing, for the which he is to be sent. After this sort. * As it appeareth peareth by diverse epistles of his. S. Cyprian being in Africa had care over Rome in Europe, and written unto the church there. After this sort also was Ireneus Bishop of Lions sent by the french Churches, unto the churches in (c) Untrue. Phrygia, and after this sort have M. Caluine, and M. Bez been sent from Geneva in Savoy, to the Churches of France. Euseb. li. 5. cap. 3. & 4. Io. Whitgifte. It shall appear God willing, whether M. Doctor's memory or yours be worse: The falsifying of Theodoret returned upon the Replier. whether he hath an evil conscience in falsifying writers, or you in slandering of him: whether he taketh his stuff at the second hand, or you rather, that have borrowed of other men collections, almost whatsoever you have heaped together in your book. All this I say shall appear, even to try your corrupt & untrue dealing in this place: and certainly I cannot but marvel what affection hath so got the upper hand of you, that it provoketh you to such outrage us speeches in a matter so manifestly counterfeit. If you have not seen the Author I will ascribe it to negligent ignorance, but if you have seen him, I cannot ascribe it to any other thing, than to unsha efast malice. The whole story as it is in Theodoret is this: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. john the great having received the stern of the Church, reproved the injuries of certain boldly, and counseled the king and the Queen things c venient, and exhorted the Priest oh walk according to the laws appointed. But such as were not afraid to break them, he suffered not to come to the table, saying it was not meet that those should enjoy the honour of Priests, which would not follow the conversation of true Priests. And this care 〈◊〉 used not only over that city, but also over whole Thracia, which containeth six provinces, and over all Asia, which is governed under eleven rulers: and moreover he governed the Church of Pontus with these laws, in which country are as many rulers as in Asia. First he saith that Chrysostom took the stern or government of the Church, then that he did freely reprehend vice. Thirdly, that he commanded the Priests to live according to the laws. Fourthly, that he did excommunicate and deprive of their priestly honour such as dared transgress. Is not this to rule? what Archbishop in England doth execute greater jurisdiction? Then it followeth immediately in Theodor. and with this care he did provide for, or embrace not only his city, but the Churches of Thracia, etc. Where it is to be noted that Theodorete saith with this care etc. meaning that as he had the government of the Church of Constantinople, and did there reprehend vice, commanded the Priests to live according to the laws, excommunicate them that did not, and put them from their office, so did he also in the Churches of Thracia, Asia, and Pontus. Theodoretes words be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 etc. and you have craftily left out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you might the rather cloak Theodoretes plain meaning. Besides this Theodoret saith in plain words, that he governed the Churches in Pontus with these laws, the Greek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. I shall most heartily desire the Reader to consider this dealing of yours: surely I think few Papists would have dealt in like manner. And if the words of themselves were not plain (as they be most plain) yet very reason might have taught you, that this was Theodoretes meaning, for if he should not have meant some special care of these Churches, wherefore should he rather make particular mention of them, than of other Churches? do you not think that wisé men can easily espy your gross shifts? Cyprians care over Rome, was not like the care that he had over his own Churches, it could not be said that he embraced Rome with the same care of government, of reproving, of excommunicating such as dared offend etc. that he did Carthage, and other places committed unto him, as it is here said of Chrysostom. I omit your oversight in saying that Ireneus was sent to the Churches in Phrygia: for Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 3. & 4. (which places you quote in your margin to prove it) hath no such thing: only he saith that Ireneus was sent to Rome to Eleutherius. Chap. 3. the. 66. Division. T. C Pag. 89. Sect. 1 Now if you will conclude hereupon that Cyprian ruled the church of Rome, or Ireneus the Church of Phrigia, or M. Caluine, or M. Beza the churches of France, or that they were Bishops or Archbishops of those places, you shall but conclude as you were wont to do: but yet all men understand, that here is nothing less than an Archbishop, or any such Bishop as we have and use in our church. And if so be that Chrysostom should be Bishop or Archbishop of all these churches, which were in all Asia, Pontus, Thracia, as you would give the reader to understand, you make him Bishop of (a) Or else you are deceived. more churches than ever the Pope of Rome was, when he was in his greatest pride, & his empire largest. For there were six presidentships in Thracia, & in Asia there were an eleven princes, & had several regions or governments, & in Pontus as many, & if he were Bishop or Archbishop of all the churches within these dominions, he had need of a long spoon to feed with all. (b) An untruth as will appear. It is certain therefore that he was Bishop only of the church in Constantinople, & had an eye and a care to those other churches. And that he was Bishop of one city or of one church, it may appear by that which I have before alleged out of the Greek Scholiast upon Titus, who citeth there Chrysostom, where it is said that S. Paul did not mean to make one over the whole isle, (c) The words of the Scholiast perverted. but that every one should have his proper congregation etc. And in another place he showeth the difference between the Emperor and the Bishop, that the one is over the 3. Hom. Act. world, and the other, that is the Bishop, is over one city. Io. Whitgifte. Your examples prove nothing, neither be they any thing like to this of Chrysostom, Thracia, etc. annexed to the bishopric of Constantinople. for Theodorete doth mention these Churches as places annexed to the Bishopric of Constantinople, & properly appertaining to the care and charge of Chrysostom the Bishop of that city. Socrates speaking of a council assembled at Constantinople, saith thus: They do again establish the faith of the Council of Nice: & dividing provinces Socrates, li. 5. cap. 8. they appoint patriarchs, there was therefore allotted unto Nectarius, the great and ample city of Constantinople & Thracia, etc. And this Nectarius was Patriarch of Constantinople next before Chrysostom, so that it is manifest that Chrysostom was Patriarch or Archbishop both of Constantinople and also of Thracia, etc. Sozomenus Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 6. showeth evidently that Chrysostom had jurisdiction over all Asia, and of other places also, and that he executed jurisdiction there accordingly: For he deposed to the Chrysostom xerciseth Archiepiscopal juris iction in Asia. number of 13. Bishops, some in Lycia, some in Phrygia, some in Asia, because they sold benefices and bestowed them for favour, and for reward. And if you were not either very ignorant, or wilfully bend, you might have read in Ecclesiastical histories, that one Bishop had authority and charge over divers Churches, long before Chrysostom's time, the which thing I have also before proved by divers examples. That Chrysostom was Archbishop of all those Churches (although it be sufficiently proved by the testimony of Theodorete a worthy writer and notable divine: and by Sozomene also) yet will I add (as a full confutation of all your fancies in this matter) the judgement of the writers and collectors of the Centuries, who being many learned, & travailing especially in such matters, deserve great credit: In their 5. century. cap. 10. they write thus of Chrysostom: Non autem tantùm istius Ecclesiae Pastorem Cent. 5. cap. 10. Chrysostom Archbishop of Thracia, Asi , etc. egit etc. But he was not only Pastor of this Church (meaning Constantinople) but was Archbishop also or overseer of other Churches in Thracia, which was divided into six presidentships, in Asia which was ruled of eleven praetors, and in the region of Pontus, which is likewise divided into eleven presidentships. If oh report of any historiographer will please you, what remedy: though you remain wilful still, yet I trust the tractable Reader may here find sufficient to satisfy him. For a further proof that the Bishops of Constantinople were called Archbishops, I could refer you to the general Council of Chalcedon which was Anno. 453. where Flavianus is called Archbishop Act. 16. of Constantinople sundry times. Where also it appeareth that the Archbishop of Constantinople, had the ordaining, allowing and disallowing of the Bishops in Pontus, Asia, and Thracia. You are greatly deceived in saying that if he were Archbishop of all these Churches, he was Bishop of m e Churches, than ever the Pope was in his greatest pride: for even all these Churches, and all other Churches were made subject to him, when by Phocas he was made the head of the Church and universal Bishop: and though he had not possession of all, yet did he claim interest in all, and jurisdiction over all, or at the lest over so many of them as professed Christianity. You say, it is certain therefore that he was Bishop only of the Church in Constantinople, and had an eye and care to those other Churches: and against this your own certainty without any ground or authority, I have brought in Theodoret, Sozomene, the Council of Chalcedon, and the Centuries: although in effect you confess as much as I desire: for there is neither Archbishop nor Bishop in this Church, but he hath his peculiar sea and Church, and yet care of government over other also, even as Chrysostom had. You have alleged nothing, neither can you, to prove that Chrysostom had not government over more Churches than one. The Greek Scholiast (whom I have answered) hath not one word to that purpose: for every several parish hath a Pastor, The Scholiast falsified by T. C. and to what purpose. notwithstanding the Bishop hath the care of government of them, even as Titus had in Creta. The words of the author be, Sed singulas civitates suum habere Pastorem, but every city should have her Pastor, And you have translated it, that every one should have his proper congregation: whereby you mean scant good faith, but covertly go about to make your reader believe; that the Scholiast would have no ministers without a proper congregation. But of this and many other of your like corruptions, I trust the reader is already sufficiently instructed. The words of Chrysostom Hom. 3. in Act. be these: N nne imperium orbis terrarum tenet imperator? Hic autem unius civitatis Episcopus est. Doth not the Emperor govern the world? but this man is Bishop of one City. The which words are spoken of Chrysostom in this sense, that he which is but Bishop of one City, is as much subject to affections and troubles as the Emperor is, that governeth the whole world. This to be Chrysostom's meaning the words following do declare: wherefore he doth not in that place show any difference betwixt the Emperor & a Bishop, in the largnes or straightness of their charges, & places of government (as you say) but in the troubles, in the opprobries & slanders that they be subject unto, wherewith the Bishop of one city is more tossed, than the Emperor of the whole world: which Chrysostom speaketh hyperbolycally, for there was not one Emperor over the whole world at any time, and he himself being Bishop had the care and charge of diverse Cities, wherefore he must be understood secundùm subiectam materiam: as the matter in hand requireth. Chap. 3. the. 67. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 73. Sect. 3 Theodoretus Episcopus Cyri in an Epistle that he writ to Leo, saith of Theodoret , himself, that he had government over. 800. Churches. T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 2. Touching Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus, (a) You 〈◊〉 those that 〈◊〉 agayns you. to let pass that which the Bishops of Egypt cried in the Council of Chalcedon, that he was no Bishop, it is to be observed, that which the Emperors In the. 1. Act. Theodosius & Valentinian, writ unto Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria, that he had commanded Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus that he should keep himself unto his own Church only: whereby In the same Act. it appeareth, (b) An 〈◊〉▪ & owl one sight. that he meddled in more Churches than was meet he should. Besides, that wanteth not suspicion that he speaketh this of himself, especially when he saith that there was not in all those. 800. Churches one are, that is (c) Untrue 〈◊〉▪ terpretation. one hypocrite or evil man. Io. Whitgifte. In the convocation held in the first year of Queen Marie, the testimony of Theodorete can have no credit either with the Papists, or with the Replier. this Theodoret, being alleged against transubstantiation, D. Watson because he could not answer the authority, denied the Author, accusing him to be a Nestorian. To whom reply was made, that it was but a lewd refuge, when he could not answer, to deny the Author. The same may be said to you, dealing in the self same manner. For this Theodorete as he is a notable historiographer, & of great credit in the reporting of things done by other, & before his time, so is there no cause at all why he should be suspected speaking of himself. And he himself doth report of himself in that Epistle written by him to Leo, that he had not only governed these 800. Churches, but so governed them by the space of. 26. years, that he sustained no reproach or blame of the bishops of Antioch: whereof I might also truly gather, that the Bishop of Antioch was as it were his Archbishop or Metropolitan. This authority or rather example of Theodorete is so plain, that you are driven to seek unlawful shifts to deface a worthy writer: but let us see how justly. You say, that the Bishops of Egypt cried in the Council of Chalcedon, that he was no Bishop, and you note in the margin the. 1. Act. of that Council: and I say unto you again, that the whole Council in the. 8. Action, cried out and said, Theodoretus dignus Act. 8. Con. Call ed. est sede Ecclesiae, orthodoxum Ecclesia pastorem recipiat. Theodoret is worthy the seat of the Church (that is the Bishopric) let the Church receive him as a Catholic Pastor. You add, that Theodosius and Valentinian, writ unto Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria, The corrupt dealing of T. C. that he had commanded Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus, that he should keep himself to his own Church only, etc. To this I answer, that you have here dealt, as commonly you do, that is, very corruptly: for the words that follow in the same Epistle do evidently declare, that the emperors meaning was, that Theodorete should keep himself at home, and not come to the Synod, unless it should please the whole Synod to accept of him, and to admit him. The which also appeareth in another Epistle of the Emperors to Dioscorus in that first Act of the Council of Chalcedon (in the which Epistle the Emperor calleth the Bishop of jerusalem Archbishop) It appeareth that Theodorete was first by the emperors commandment inhibited from coming to that Synod, which was called the second Council of Ephesus, and afterward that he was con mned in the same Synod in his absence, and not called to answer for himself, as he declareth in his Epistle written to Leo. But he was restored in this general Council of Chalcedon, and that second Council of Ephasus was afterward condemned: so that all this that you speak to the discredit of Theodorete is but a frivolous, and yet a corrupt shift. You do but as you are wont, when you expound that which Theodorete speaketh of his 800. Churches being without tars, of hypocrites and evil men. If you had read the author yourself, I think you would not so grossly have erred: his words be these. By God's help I delivered more than a thousand souls from Martions heresy, Theod. in Epist. ad Leonem. and I converted many to Christ the Lord from the sect of Arius, and Eunomius, & ut in octingentis Ecclesijs pastor essem, mibi sortitò obtigit: tot enim paroecias, habet Cyrus: and it was allotted to me to be pastor in 800. Churches, for Cyrus hath so many parishes: in the which How Theodorete le t no tars in his 800. churches through your prayers there did not remain one tare: sed ab omnierrore haeretico liberatus fuit grex noster, but our flock was delivered from all heretical error. Theodorete therefore means heresy, he means not hypocrisy, there was not one heretic in all his Bishopric, he doth not say one hypocrite or evil man: so that you are far wide and do Theodorete double injury, for you do both slander him, and misconstrue him. Chap. 3. the. 68 Division. T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 3 Now, that it may appear what great likelihood there is between this Theodoret, and our Lord Bishops and Archbishops, it is to be considered which he writeth of himself in the Epistle unto Leo, that is, that he having been. 26. years Bishop, was known of all those that dwelled in those parts, that he had never house of his own, nor field, nor halfepenn e, not so much as a place to be buried in, but had willingly contented himself with a poor estate, be yke he had a very leene archishopric, and if the fat morsels of our bishoprics, and Archbishoprikes were taken and employed to their uses of maintenance of the poor, and of the Ministers, and of the Universities, which are the seed of the ministery, I think the heat of the disputation, and contention for Archbishops and Bishops would be well cooled. Io. Whitgifte. We speak of the office and authority, not of the living, to the spoil of the which, Comparison made in office, not in riches. you and most of your fautors have more respect, than you have to the office, though you pretend the contrary: and yet it followeth not, but that Theodorete had living sufficient, and might have been more wealthy, but as it seemeth he professed voluntary poverty of purpose, for he gave away that also which was left unto him of his parents, as he in that Epistle testifieth saying, Sed sponte electam amplexus sum paupertatem: but I embraced poverty which I chose willingly. His Bishopric might be of large revenues, and yet he poor, seeing that he had choose, and professed poverty. But if Bishops be better now provided for, than they were then, it is their parts to be thankful unto God and the Prince for it, and to use it well. It is not your duty to envy their prosperity, because you are not in case yourself. Chap. 3. the. 69. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 73. Sect. ult. But what shall I need to use such proofs in a matter so plain, and evident to all such as have read any thing of antiquity? The best learned men of our days, and diligentest preferrers of the Gospel of Christ do with one consent (one or two of the latest writers excepted) acknowledge and confess that this distinction of degrees, and superiority in the government of the Church; is a thing most convenient and necessary. T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 4. Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath been able to ache together out of the old fathers, which he saith are so plain in this matter, and yet can show nothing to the purpose. Hear also what he saith out of the writers of our age, all which he saith (except one or two) are of his judgement, and allow well of this distinction of degrees. Io. Whitgifte. Well what I have raked together, and how you have carted these raking away, I commit to the judgement of the learned. These raking terms, in my opinion are not seemly in him, that would seem so much to justify himself, and to condemn other of immodesty. Chap. 3. the. 70. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 74. Sect. 1 Caluine in his Institutions saith on this sort, that every province Calvin. Cap. 8. Sect. 54. had among their Bishops an Archbishop, and that the Council of Nice did appoint patriarchs which should be in order and dignity above Archbishops, it was for the preservation of discipline: Therefore for this cause especially were those degrees appointed, that if any thing should happen in any particular Church which could not there be decided, it might be removed to a provincial Synod: If the greatness or difficulty of the cause required greater consultation, than was there added patriarchs together with the Synods, from whom there was no appeal but unto a general Council▪ This kind of government some called Hierarchiam, an improper name and not used in the scriptures: for the spirit of God will not have us to dream of dominion and rule in the government of the Church: But if (omitting the name) we shall consider the thing itself, we shall find that these old Bishops did not frame any other kind of government in the Church, from that which the Lord hath prescribed in his word. Caluine here misliketh this name Hierarchia, but he alloweth the names and authority of patriarchs and Archbishops, and thinketh the government of the Church then used, not to differ from that which God in his word prescribeth. T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. ult. & Pag. 90. Sect. 1. 2. M. Caluine first is cited to prove those offices of Archbishop, Primate, Patriarch: The names whereof he cannot abide, and as for him he approveth only, that there should be some, which when difficult causes arise, which cannot be ended in the particular Churches might refer the matters to Synods and provincial Councils, and which might do the offices which I have spoken of before of gathering voices. etc. But that he liketh not of those dominations and large jurisdictions, or at all of the Bishops or Archbishops, which we have now, it may appear plainly enough both in that place, when as he will have his words drawn to no other than the old Bishops, shutting out thereby the Bishops that now are, as also in other places, and namely upon the Philippians, where reasoning against Phil. 1. this distinction between Pastor and Bishop, and showing that giving the name of Bishop, to one man only in a church, was the occasion why he afterward usurped do ination over the rest, he saith after this sort: In deed I grant (saith he) as the dispositions and manners of men are, order cannot stand amongst the ministers of the word, unless one be over the rest, I mean (says he) of every several and singular body, not of a whole province, much less of the whole world. Now if you will needs have M. Caluins' Archbishop, you must not have him neither over a Province nor Diocese, but only over one singular and particular congregation: how much better therefore were it for you to seek some other shelter against the storm than M. Caluins, which will not suffer you by any means to cover yourself under his wings, but thrusteth you out always as soon as you enter upon him forcibly. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine affirmeth directly, that every province among their Bishops had Caluine acknowledgeth the names, and the end of them, and alloweth the kind of government. an Archbishop, and that the Council of Nice did a ppoynt patriarchs: he sayeth that these degrees were appointed for the preservation of discipline, and by calling of Synods to end controversies that arise in particular Churches he well liketh this kind of government: only he misliketh the name (Hierarchia) what can be plain spoken both of the name and office of the Archbishop? As for your fond devise that it should be his office only to gather voices, etc. it is singular to yourself, you have not one learned writer (that I can read) with you. The Bishops that now are in this Church, neither have, nor challenge to have more jurisdiction than the old Bishops had, nay they have not so much, as it is evidently to be seen in the old Canons: and therefore M. Caluine allowing of them, doth allow of ours also. His place to the Philippians maketh against you, for he alloweth one to be superior amongst the ministers, and to rule the rest, and saith. that as the nature and disposition of men now is, there could be no order except it were so: which doth utterly overthrow the equality that you and the Admonition dream of. He says that he speaketh de singulis corporibus. which he cannot understand of particular parishes, for every particular parish hath not many ministers: so that of necessity he must have many senerall Churches to make the body he speaketh of: and therefore a Diocese or a province. I think M. Caluine did think Geneva, and the towns thereunto adjoining and belonging to be but one body: so do I think London and the Diocese thereunto pertaining to be but one particular body. And likewise the Province of Canterbury, distinguished into diverse parts and members, to be but one body in like manner. Neither do I think that master Caluine ever showed his misliking of these degrees in this Church as they be now used: for (as I said before) the great abuse of them under the Pope, made him more to mislike of them, than he would have done, but in these words that I have repeated of his, he testifieth as T. C. letteth that slip, that maketh against him. much as I desire, that is the antiquity and the cause, and use of those offices, and (that which you omit and skip over) that herein the old Bishops did frame no kind of government in the Church, diverse from that which the Lord hath prescribed in his word: which neither you nor your adherents can abide to hear of. Chap. 3. the. 71. Division. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 3 But here I cannot let pass M. Doctors ill dealing, which reciting so much of master Caluine, (*) Unjust accusation. cutteth him off in the waste, and leaveth quite out that which made against him, that is which M. Caluine sayeth in these words: Although (sayeth he) in this disputation, it may not be passed over that this office of Archbishop or Patriarch, was most rarely and seldom used, which dealing seemeth to proceed of a very evil conscience. Io. Whitgifte. I know not what perfection is in your book, more than in mine, but I am sure that I have followed mine own book faithfully and truly, neither have I omitted one word that maketh either with me or against me: and therefore you have unjustly charged me. The book that I follow was printed Anno. 1553. wherein there are no such words, that this office 〈◊〉 Archbishop or Patriarch was most rarely and seldom used. Neither is there cause why. M. Caluine should so say, for he could not but know that these offices have had continuance in the Church, at the lest, since before the Council of Nice, for there are these words, mos antiquus perduret, etc. and that they were continually affixed to the bishoprics of certain Cities, as Rome, Antioch. etc. In deed in the last edition of his institutions, he hath these words, quanquam in hac disputatione praeteriri non potest, quod rarissimi erat usus, which words he referreth to The use of the Patriarch rare, in what sense. the office of a Patriarch, whom he saith the Nicene Council did place in dignity and order above Archbishops, for the preservation of discipline, neither doth he say that the office of a Patriarch was movable, or choose at every action, (for then should he affirm that which is repugnant to all histories, Councils▪ and ancient writers that speak of patriarchs) but his meaning is, that there was but seldom times occasion offered for patriarchs, to exercise the authority they had over archbishops, which is the occasion that the most authors do confound them, and think them to be all one: other meaning than this, his words neither can nor do admit. Chap. 3. the. 72. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 74. Sect. ult. Hemingius in his Enchirid. showeth, that these degrees in the Hemingi . Church be necessary, & that discipline cannot be kept without them. And he addeth that their Church keepeth this form, Necmovetur (says he) Anabaptistarum ac Libertinorun effreni libidine, qui ecclesiam Christi barbaricum quendam bominum caetum, sine ordine fingunt, cum habeat nostra ecclesia non solum exemplum Apostolicae & purioris ecclesiae, verum etiam mandatum spiritus sancti omnia ordinaté & decenter ad aedificationem faciendi. Neither is our Church moved with the licentious liberty of Anabaptists and Libertines, which feign the Church of Christ to be a barbarous confused society without order, seeing that our Church hath not only the example of the Apostolical and most pure Church, but also the commandment of the spirit of God, to do all things orderly and decently to edify. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 4. Then followeth Hemingius, who you say approveth these degrees of Archbishop, Metropolitan, Bishop, Archdeacon, for so you must needs mean, when you say he approveth these Cap. 10. 3. class. lib. Enchirid. where also among the popish orders he reckoneth the 〈◊〉. degrees, or else you say nothing, for thereupon is the question. Now how untruly you speak, let it be judged by that which followeth. First he saith that our Saviour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth, and putteth a difference between the office of a Prince, and the office of the Minister of the Church, leaving dominion to the Princes, and taking it altogether from the Ministers▪ here you see, not only how he is against you, in your exposition in the place of S. Luke, which would have it nothing else but a prohibition of ambition, but also how at a word, he cutteth the throat of your Archbishop, and Bishop as it is now used. And afterward speaking of the Churches of Denmark, he sayeth they have Christ for their head, and for the outward discipline, they have Magistrates to punish with the sword, and for to exercise the ecclesiastical discipline, they have Bishops, Pastors, Doctors, which may keep men under with the word, without using any corporal punishment. Here is no mention of Archishops, Primates, metropolitans. And although he showeth that they keep the distinction between Bishops and Ministers, against which there hath been before spoken, yet he sayeth that the authority which they have, is as the authority of a father, not as the power of a master, which is far otherwise here. (*) So is the condition of a good servant under a good master, much better than the condition of an unruly son under a wise father. For the condition of many servants under their masters, is much more free than the condition of a Minister under his Bishop. And afterward he showeth wherein that authority or dignity of the Bishop over the Minister lieth, that is in exhorting of him, in chiding of him▪ as he doth the lay people, and yet he will have also the Minister, although not with such authority, after a modest sort to do the same unto the Bishop. And so he concludeth, that they retain these orders, notwithstanding the Anabaptistes. Now let the reader judge whether Hemingius be truly or faithfully alleged or not, or whether Hemingius do say that they have in their Church archbishops, Primates; metropolitans, Archdeacon's, or whether the bishops in the Churches of Denmark are any thing like ours. For I 〈◊〉 omit that he speaketh there against all pomp in the ministery, all worldly superiority or ghnesse, because I * And therefore you cum 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 sentences. love not to write out whole pages, as M. Doctor doth out of other men's writings, to help to make up a book. Io. Whitgifte. Hemin. in that very place quoted in your margin hath first these words: Praeterea cum hic c tus, etc. Furthermore seeing this society is ruled by the word of god, there are in it two sorts of men, that is to say the preachers of the word, and their hearers, which do reverence and Hemingius alloweth distinction of degrees in the ministery. love one another as fathers and children. But in the Ministers there is great diversity: for although the authority of all Ministers in respect of spiritual regiment is all one (for of external discipline shall be spoken in the proper place) yet there are diverse orders and degrees of honour and dignity: and that partly by the word of God, partly by the approbation and allowance of the Church. Where first he alloweth this distinction which you so greatly mislike that all Ministers be equal touching spiritual jurisdiction, that is their ministery, but not concerning external discipline: then doth he allow degrees of dignity and superiority among the Clergy: the which after that he hath proved by the Scripture, as namely the. 4. to the Ephesians, and by the examples of Paul, Hemingius acknowledgeth patriarchs in the primitive Church. The office of Patriaches in the primative Church. Timothy, and Titus, he proceedeth and goeth on forward: and saith, Ecclesia. etc. The Church, to whom the Lord hath given power unto edification, hath ordained an order of ministries for her profit, that all things might be rightly ordained for the re-edifying of the body of Christ. Hereof the Primitive Church following the times of the Apostles, did appoint some patriarchs, whose office it was to provide that the bishops of every 〈◊〉 should be rightly ordained and elected: that the Bishops should do their duty truly: and that the Clergy and people should obey them in those things that pertained to the Lord: it appointed also Chorepiscopos, (that is coadjutors of Bishops whom we now call provosts) some Pastors, and Catechistes. This was the ordination of the Primitive Church. Wherein he plainly declareth these degrees that I speak of (for under the name of patriarchs, it is evident that he comprehendeth archbishops or metropolitans) to have been in the Primitive Church, immediately after the Apostles time, and in the purest time of the Church: than the which what can be spoken more directly for my purpose, whose chief intent is, to prove the antiquity of these names and offices? After this he showeth the abuses of these offices in the corruption of doctrine under the Pope, and he doth not only name Archbishops, but Bishops also, Curates, and other, and therefore the note in your margin, is but a note of a special spite against the Archbishops. In the end speaking of Bishops, Pastors, and Doctors, he saith thus. Inter hos ministros, etc. Among these ministers also our Church acknowledgeth degrees To take away degrees is barbarousness. and orders of dignity, for the diversity of gifts, the greatness of labour, and the worthiness of their calling: and judgeth it to be barbarous, to will to take this order out of the Church: It judgeth that other Ministers aught to obey their Bishops in all things that tend Minister's subject to Bishops. to the edification of the Church, according to the word of God, and the profitable order of the Church: It judgeth that the Bishops have authority over the other ministers of the Church, not such as is of masters, but of fathers. Whereby he acknowledgeth distinction of degrees and superiority among Ministers, and the jurisdiction of Bishops over other Ministers: After all this he concludeth with these words contained in mine answer: Now let the reader judge whether I have otherwise reported of Himingius than he himself in that Chapter affirmeth: and whether he consent unto me that would have distinction of degrees among the Ministers, or to you that would have an equality which he calleth an anabaptistical and barbarous confusion. Touching your notes gathered out of him, I will briefly answer: first, in the exposition of the. 22. of Luke, he is not against me, for I would not have Archbishops or Bishops. etc. to take from Kings their rule and dominion as doth the Pope: neither would I have them to reign over the people as Kings and Princes do. And I do not think but that the authority and superiority that they have, is a ministery for the quietness of the Church, and the commodity of other, and yet a government to: for the Apostle saith, ad Hebr. 13. Obedite his qui praesunt vobis, Obey them that Heb. 13. bear rule over you etc. Hemingius in that place especially dealeth against the two sword of the Bishop of Rome, and his excessive pomp. For the kind of authority that the Bishop hath over the Ministers, that it should What kind of authority the Bishos exercise. be of a father, and not of a master, I agree with him, and I know that all you speak to the contrary in the government of this Church, is most untrue: For undoubtedly if they have offended in any thing, it is in to much lenity, which is a fault even in a father. The authority that Hemingius giveth to the civil Magistrate, we acknowledge with him to be most due, and I would to God you also did in heart and mouth confess the same. Thus you see that Hemingius and we agree, and that there is nothing ascribed unto him, which is not plainly to be found in him. Chap. 3. the. 73. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 75. Lin. 11. & Sect. 1 Wherefore thus I conclude with the very words of that worthy M. Fox. man, (who hath so well deserved of this Church of England) Master Fox: In the ecclesiastical estate we take not away the distinction of ordinary degrees, such as by the Scripture be appointed, or by the Primitive Church allowed, as patriarchs or Archebishops, Bishops, ministers, and deacons, for of these four we especially read as chief: in which four degrees as wegraunt diversity of office, so we admit in the same also diversity of dignity: neither denying that which is due to each degree, neither yet maintaining the ambition of any singular person. For as we give to the minister place above the Deacon, to the Bishop above the minister, to the Archbishop above the Bishop, so we see no cause of inequality, why one minister should be above another minister, one Bishop in his degree above another Bishop to deal in his diocese: or an Archbishop above an other Archbishop: and this is to keep an order duly and truly in the Church, according to the true nature and definition of order by the authority of Augustine, lib. de Civi. Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio. Hitherto M. Fox. Now let the indifferent Reader judge whether these offices be strange and unheard of in the Church of Christ, or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. ult. M. Doctor closeth up this matter with M. Fox, but either for fear that the place should be found, that there might be answer, or for fear that M. Fox should give me the solution which hath given you the obietion, he would neither quote the place of the book, nor the book itself, he having written divers. You can not speak so much good of M. Fox, which I will not willingly subscribe unto: and if it be any declaration of good will, and of honour, that one beareth to another, to read that which he writeth, I think (*) I marvel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a razors ader. I have read more of him, than you. For I have read over his book of Martyrs, and so I think did never you: for if you had read so diligently in M. Fox, as you have been hasty to snatch at this place, he would have taught Pag. 78. of the book of Acts. you the forgery of these Epistles, whereout you fetch your authorities, and would have showed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitans, Bishops, and other degrees, which you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles times, sometimes you can not tell when, were not in Higinus time, which was. 180. years after Christ. I (a) A suspicious head. perceive you fear M. Fox is an enemy unto your Archbishop and primate, and therefore it seemeth you went about to corrupt him with his praise, and to seek to draw him, if it were possible, unt the Archbishop, and if not, yet at the lest that he would be no enemy, if he would not, nor could not be his friend. You make me suspect that your praise is not hearty, but pretended, because you do so often and so bitterly speak against all those that will not receive the cap, and surplice, and other ceremonies, whereof M. Fox declareth his great misliking. For answer unto the place, because I remember it not, nor mean not to read over the whole book to seek it, I say first as I said before, that there may be something before or after, which may give the solution to this plac , especially seeing M. Fox in another place page. 96. proving the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeit, he useth this reason, because the fift canon of the said Epistles, solemnly entreateth of the difference between, Primates, metropolitans, and Archbishops, which distinction (saith he) of titles and degrees, savour more of ambition than persecution. Moreover I say, that M. Fox writing a story, doth take greater pain, and looketh more diligently to declare what is done, and in what time, and by whom, than how justly or bniustly, how conveniently or inconveniently it is done. Last of all, if any thing be spoken there to the hindrance of the sincerity of the Gospel, I am well assured that M. Fox, which hath traveled so much and so profitably to that end, will not have his authority or name therein to bring any prejudice. Now will I also join with you, and leave it to the judgement of the indifferent Reader, how well out of the Scriptures, Counsels, writers old and new, you have proved either the lawfulness at all of the names of Archbishops, patriarchs, Archdeacon's, Primates, or of the lawfulness of the office of them, and of Bishops which be in our times. Io. Whitgifte. If you had so diligently read M. Fox his book of Martyrs, as you boast and brag that you have done, then could not this place have been so strange unto you, for it is in the, 20. page of his first tome, where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and speaketh of this matter at large. The words be his own, and express his own judgement of these degrees & offices in this Church of England. It had been some token of modesty, so to have commended yourself, and your own reading, that you had not depraved any other man's: But to commend yourself, and to detract from an other, is either arrogant foolishness, or foolishs' arrogancy. I can bring forth good testimonies of my reading of these books, though I make no uragge thereof, or vain comparisons. I have alleged none of these Epistles other wise than M. Fox himself hath alleged them. M. Fox hath showed himself (in the place by me cited out of his book) to be no 〈◊〉 either to Archbishop, Private, or Bishop, for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh. He is not a man like to be corrupted with praise, and therefore in so saying, you do us both great injury. You may not judge my heart: I think of M. Fox as of one that I love and reverence, I will not utter all that I could, lest I should seem to flatter. There is nothing that goeth either before that place, or followeth after it, that can procure any other sense to his words, than that in the which I have set them down. I do not allege M. Fox for the original of these names and offices, but for the allowance of them. These words that I have recited are not spoken in the way of any history, but of the order of government of this Church, which he alloweth, and I dare say for him, that he hath héereinspoken nothing, which he thinketh may hurt the 〈◊〉 of the Gospel. And I am right well content to let the godly Reader judge of both our proofs. ¶ The defence of the answer of Master jewel, concerning Archbishops. etc. against the unreverende Reply of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Division. T. C. Page▪ 91. Sect. 1 And for as much as I have purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in divers. I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 half a sheet of 〈◊〉▪ which is annexed of late unto the book, put forth in the 〈◊〉▪ and under the credit of the Bishop of Sarisburie, wherein I will say nothing of those 〈◊〉 & sharp w rds, which are given partly in the beginning, when he calleth the propounders of the 〈◊〉 why h 〈◊〉 archebishops and archedeacons' novices, partly in the end when he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 children, and the doctrine of (*) A shameless un kedlye. the gospel wantonness. etc. If he had lie , 〈◊〉 learning and gravittie, and otherwise good deserts of the Church, in defending the 〈◊〉 thereof against the Papists, we could have easily born it at his hands: now he is dead and 〈◊〉 up 〈◊〉 peace, 〈◊〉 were against all humanity to dig or to break up his grave, only I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 t 〈◊〉 the consideration of the Reader upon those things which are alleged, to judge whether it or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉, which is confirmed by so grave testimonies of the aun work of God. Io. Whitgifte. If you doubt whether the Bishop of Sarisbury were the author of that half sheet of paper, or not, you may see his own hand writing. If you call the words which he useth there 〈◊〉 and sharp, what shall we think of yours? we had need term them Serpentine or viperous: or if there can be any other name that better expresseth such immodest, contemptuous and scoffing speeches. Hypocrita quid vides fist 〈…〉 in oculo fratris tui. & c? But what are these biting and sharp words that he useth? forsooth that he calleth the propounders of the proposition which concerneth Archbishops and Archedeacons', Why. T. C. scometh so much at the words of the Bishop. novices: and in the end he calleth them children, and their doctrine wantonness. O these be biting and sharp words: but wouldst thou know good Reader why T. C. taketh these words so grievously: even because they touch himself. For the man is of that humility and patience, that if there be never so little signification given of any unskilfulness or lack of learning in himself, he roareth like a lion, & swelleth like the sea: for none of that faction can in any case abide to have their learning touched: The malicious nature of that faction. and they will not stick in commending themselves, to deface all other, yea even that notable jewel, whose both labour and learning they do envy, and among themselves deprave, as I have herded with mine own ears, and a number more besides. For further proof whereof I do but refer you to the report, that by this faction was spread of him after his last Sermon at Paul's cross, because he did confirm the doctrine before preached by a famous and learned man, touching obedience to the Prince and laws. It was then strange to me to hear so notable a Bishop, so learned a man; so stout a champion of true religion, so painful a Prelate, so ungratefully, and spitefully used, by a sort of wavering, wicked, & wretched tongues. But it is their manner; except you please their humour in all things, be you never so well learned, never so painful, so zealous, so virtuous, all is nothing with them, but they will deprave you, rail on you, backbite you, inventlyes of you, and spread false rumours, as though you were the vilest people in the whole earth. And consider whether T. C. be not even now in that vain: for how maliciously The Bishop maliciously staundered by T. C. doth he slander that so Reverend Bishop, saying, that he calleth the doctrine of the gospel wantonness, when he speaketh of their childish and fantastical devices, except all were Gospel that they speak, or that cometh from them. Pardon me, though I speak something earnestly: it is in the behalf of a jewel, that is contemned and defaced by contentious and ungrateful people. If it had pleased God to have suffered him to live unto this day, in answering this Reply, he should no doubt have proved his biting and sharp words, (as they be called) to be most true. But seeing that he is at rest, and not here to answer for himself, though in respect of him I am far unmeet to intermeddle in his doings, yet in respect of the cause and adversary, I will be bold to justify his answers. Chap. 4. the. 2. Division. ¶ The judgement of that Reverend father john late Bishop of Sarum, avouched by his own hand. Archiepiscoporum & Archidiaconorum nomina simul cum Novitiorum assertio . muneribus & officijs suis sunt abolenda. The first Reason. God so loved the Church, that he left a perfect pattern orderly. etc. Eph 4. but there Prima ratio. is named neither Pope, nor Archbishop, nor Archdeacon. The answer of the Bishop of Sarisburie. How know you that the fourth chapter ad Ephe. is a perfect pattern Eius solutio. of all ecclesiastical government? we have now neither Apostles, nor The. 4. Eph.▪ no perfect plat form of all ecclesiastical government. Evangelists, nor Prophets, and yet are they the chief in that pattern, neither have we there either Bishop, or Presbyter, or Diaconus or Catechista, or Lector, and yet are these necessary parts in ecclesiastical government: Therefore that pattern is not perfect to hold for ever, neither were there then any public Churches or Pulpits, or Schools, or Universities, etc. S. Paul nameth neither Pope nor Archbishop I grant, and the Church is not governed by names, but by offices. Every Bishop than was called Papa: and Anacletus, that was next after Peter, (if there be any weight in his words) nameth Archbishops. T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 1 Unto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alleged he answereth clean contrary to that which M. Doctor saith, that we have now neither Apostles, nor Evangelists, nor prophets, whereupon he would conclude that that place is no perfect pattern of the ministery in the Church. In deed it is true, we have not, neither is it needful that we should. It was therefore sufficient that there were once, and for a time, so that the want of those now, is no cause why the ministries there recited be not sufficient, for the accomplishment and full finishing of the church, nor cause why any other ministries should be added, besides those which are there recited. Io. Whitgifte. Not one word contrary to any thing that I have spoken, for I told you before Tract. 4. cap. diuis. 1. in what respect it may be said these offices to remain, and in what respect they be ceased: there is now no planting of Churches, nor going through the whole In what respect Apostles etc. be ceased. world, there is no writing of new Gospels, no prophesying of things to come, but there is governing of Churches, visiting of them, reforming of Pastors, and dyrecting of them, which is a portion of the Apostolical function: there is preaching of the Gospel, expounding & interpreting the Scriptures, which be incident to the Evangelist & Prophet. Against this no learned man (as I think) speaketh. But now to my Lord of Sarisburie his argument, which is this: that, from The Bishop's argument. the which somewhat must be taken, and unto the which somewhat must be added, is no perfect pattern, but Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, are taken away from the fourth to the Ephesians, and Deacons & Elders as you yourself say must be added, Ergo, it is no perfect pattern: neither do you, neither can you answer this argument. But I will come to your accustomed shifts. Chap. 4. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. afterward he saith, that neither Bishop nor Elder are reckoned in that place. The pastor is there reckoned up, and I have showed, that the pastor and Bishop are all one, and are but divers names to signify one thing. And as for those Elders which do only govern, they are made mention of in other places, and therefore the Bishop and Elder are there contained, which thing also M. Doctor granteth. Io. Whitgifte. If the Bishop be contained under the Pastor, why may not the Archbishop be so likewise: but if the Elders (which you say do only govern) be not there contained, and yet a necessary function in the Church (as you think) how can it then be a perfect platform? or why may not Archbishops & Archdeacon's be also necessary, though they be not in that place named: but you say that those Elders be in other places mentioned. That is no answer to this place, but a reason rather to prove it no perfect pattern. M. Doctor granteth a Bishop to be contained under the name of a pastor. But he doth not grant that your Elder is so, or every Presbyter (to whom the ministery of the word of God and sacraments is committed) to be a Pastor. Chap. 4. the. 4. Division. T. C. Page. 91. Sect. 3 After that, he saith there is no Catechista: if there be a pastor, there is one which both can, and aught to instruct the youth, neither (*) What say you to the Doctor. doth it pertain to any other in the church, and publicly to teach the youth in the rudiments of religion, than unto the pastor, howsoever in some times and places they have made a several office of it. Io. Whitgifte. If a pastor and a Catechiste may be in one, why may not a Bishop and a governor Catechist and pastor distinguished. also be one, and so your Elders shut out of the doors? But you may learn in ancient writers, that the office of a Catechiste was necessary in the Church, and distinct from the Pastor. Origene was a Catechist in the Church of Alexandria, as Eusebius in his sixte book doth in sundry places declare, and yet he was not then a Pastor. Chap. 4. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 1 And where he saith that there is neither Deacon nor Reader mentioned: for the Deacon I have answered, that S. Paul speaketh there only of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and governing the Churches, and therefore there was no place there to speak of a Deacon: and as for the Reader it is no such office in the Church which the minister may not do. (*) Where have you scripture for this gear. And if either he have not leisure, or his strength and voice will not serve him first to read some long time, and afterward to preach, it is an easy matter to appoint some of the Elders, or Deacons, or some other grave man in the Church to that purpose, as it hath been practised in the Churches in times past, & is in the Churches reform in our days, without making any new order or office of the ministery. Io. Whitgifte. This distinction helpeth not here: for if you say the offices or names of Deacons be left out in this place because Saint Paul speaketh not of such offices, as be occupied only in government: first I answer, that the same may be said of Archebisho ss and Archedeacons', who have those names, only in the respect of government. Secondly, I tell you that the office of a Deacon is also to preach, as is Tract. 14. hereafter proved. And last of all, that the office of a Deacon (especially as you restrain it) is neither office nor name of government, but of simple and absolute ministery and service. Your starting holes will not hide you: and this argument of the Bishop will not he answered. You have said nothing to prove this place to be a perfect pattern of all ecclesiastical functions: neither do you say any thing for omitting the names of Bishop, Deacon, Presbyter. etc. but we may say the same for the names of archbishop, archdeacon. etc. The Reader hath been counted a necessary office in the Church, and is of great antiquity, and I know that the Deacon, or any other grave person upon occasion may be admitted to read. But I pray you, where do you find any such thing in the scripture, T. C. taketh greater liberty to himself than he will allow to whole churches. especially of those which you call Elders, which be in no degree of the ministery? for it is great presumption for you to appoint any such office in the Church, not having your warrant in God's word, seeing you find such fault with whole Churches for allowing offices used in the best time of the Church, confirmed by the best Counsels, and approved by all ancient writers, because their names be not expressed in the scripture: and seeing also that you yourself a little before said, that only the pastor aught publicly in the Church to teach the youth, and not a Catechist, and I take public reading in the Church to be as solemn a matter as catechizing the youth. But you have liberty to coin what order you list, without either Scripture, or any other approved writer: we must make you another Pythagoras. In times past it was a peculiar office, and he that had it was called Lector, and therefore you can not say (as it hath been practised in times past) except you will confess that name and office of Lector, and so also grant some name and office profitable for the Church, to be omitted in the fourth Chapter to the Ephesians. Chap. 4. the. 6. Division. T. C. Page. 92. Sect. 1. 2. Where he saith that by this reason we should have no Churches, pulpits, schools, nor universities: it is first easily answered that S. Paul speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the Church, but only of all necessary ecclesiastical functions, which do both teach and govern in the Church, and then I have already showed that there were both Churches and pulpits. As for schools and Universities, it is sufficient (*) I grant, but not out of the. 4. to the Ephe. commandment of them, in that it is commanded that both the Magistrates and pastors should be learned, for he that commandeth that they should be learned, commandeth those things & those means, whereby they may most conveniently come to that learning. And we have also examples of them commended unto us in the old jud. 51. Testament. As in the book of the judges when Deborah commends the University men, & those which handled the pen of the writer, that they came out to help in the battle against the enemies of God. And in the first book of Samuel: and in the second book of the Kings: 1. Sam. 19 when Naioth and Bethel, jericho, and a place beyond jordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. schools or Universities, where the scholars of the Prophets were brought up in the fear of God, and good learning: the continuance of which schools and universities amongst the people of God, Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Acts, where it may appear, that in jerusalem there were certain Colleges appointed for several country men, so that there was one College to receive the jews and Proselytes, which came out of Cilicia, another for those that came out of Alexandria. etc. to study at jerusalem. And if any man be able to show such evidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons', as these are for universities and schools, I will not deny but it is as lawful to have them as these. Io. Whitgifte. Yet saith he truly, for in those times in Christian congregations there were neither public Churches, or Pulpits, or schools, or Universities, etc. and yet these do appertain to the government of the Church. In deed S. Paul speaketh only there of such ecclesiastical functions as do teach and preach the word, and not of such as do only govern, and therefore it can not be a perfect plaltform for ever, as I have before declared: and yet divers of these things mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie, pertain both to the office of teaching and governing. That which you say of Schools, and Universities, I mind not to examine, because I know they be necessary for the Church, how aptly soever you prove them. But this is the matter: they be necessary in the Church both for the office The Bishop is not answered. of governing and teaching, and yet they be not expressed in the fourth to the Ephesians, therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfect pattern of all ecclesiastical government: for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth, and thereunto you answer not one word. Not one of these places that you allege, proveth that in this text to the Ephesians, either Schools or Universities be mentioned: though it be certain, that they pertain both to teaching and governing, and therefore all this speech of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi. to no purpose, but only to dasle the eyes of the Reader, lest he should perceive how you offend in ignorantia Elenchi, in not answering ad idem. Chap. 4. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3 Furthermore he saith, that the Church is not governed by names, but by offices, so is it in deed. And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be showed, we will not strive for the name, but for so much as all the needful offices of the Church together with their names are mentioned in the the Scripture, it is truly said that both the offices and names of archbishop and Archedeacons', being not only not contained in them (but also condemned) aught to be banished out of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. I have before showed, that the office of visiting Churches, of overseeing many Pastors The office of archbishops & archde cons contemed in scripture. and Bishops, of suppressing schisms. etc. was in the Apostles, and is in the scriptures: But in these things doth the office of an Archbishop consist, and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon, therefore the offices of archbishops and Archdeacon's be contained in the scriptures, and were in the Apostles time. For although (as I then said) that this part of the Apostolical office, which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world, is ceased: yet the manner of government by placing Bishops in every City, by moderating and governing them, by visiting the Churches, by cutting of schisms and contentions, by ordering Ministers, remains still, and shall continued, and is in this Church in the archbishops and Bishops as most meet men to execute the same. Wherefore seeing the offices be in the scriptures, there is no cause why the names should be misliked, much less banished and cast out of the church. Chap. 4. the. 8. Division. T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he saith that Anacletus (if there be any weight in his words) nameth an Archbishop. I have before showed what weight there is in his words, & I refuse not that he be weighed by the Bishops own weights, which he giveth us in the handling of the article of the supremacy, and in the. 223. and. 224. pages, by the which weights appeareth that this Anacletus is not only light, but a plain counterfeit. Io. Whitgifte. Yet you see that learned men are content to use such authority as occasion serveth, Supra. ap. 〈◊〉▪ diuis. 13. as I have also before showed other learned men to do the like. And if it be to greatly to be reproved, first smite at yourself, as most guilty in this point. Chap. 4. the. 9 Division. The second Reason. Secunda ratio. The Synagogue of the jews was a figure of the Church of Christ. And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing. The Answer of the Bishop. I see not what you would conclude: perhaps you will say they had Eius solutio. not the names of Pope or Archbishop. So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses law, yet were not all Priests of like anciency in government. They had other names that were equivalent with archbishops: as Principes Synagogae: Principes sanctuarij: Principes familiarum Leviticarum: Principes familiarum sacerdotalium: Principes Sacerdotum: Principes domus Dei: Pontifex: Summus Pontifex: Summus sacerdos. etc. Therefore this negative reason is but weak. Again whereas it is said that to the perfection of the Synagogue there wanted nothing, it may be answered, that to the perfection thereof there wanted many things, as it is known and confessed. And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbishop, so had it not the name of Apostle, oh Evangelist. etc. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which says that the church of God under the law, had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by the commandment of God, the Bishop says he knoweth not what could be concluded of it: I have showed before that there is nothing less meant, than that the Church under the Gospel should have all those things that the Church had, or should have nothing which that had not. But this there upon is concluded, that the Lord which was so careful for that, as not to omit the lest, would not be so careless for this Church under the Gospel, as to omit the greatest. Io. Whitgifte. Tract. 2. cap. 6 diuis. 3. I told you before, that this which you call the perfection of the Synagogue, was rather a burden than a perfection: for God therefore prescribed unto them a prescript form of external things, that it might be a means to keep them from further inconvenience, but to us in such things he hath left a greater liberty: and the perfection of the Church doth not consist in outward appearance, but in spiritual gifts, and therein hath the Lord much more plentifully and gratiou lie showed his care for the Church under the Gospel, than he did for it under the law. Touching external orders both of ceremonies and government he hath left the disposition thereof to his Church in many things, as I have proved in the beginning of Tract. 2. this book. Chap. 4. the. 10. Division. T. C. Page. 92. Sect. 6. And where he says that there was then which was called high priest, and was over all the rest, he did well know that the cause thereof was (*) This was one cause, but not the only cause. because he was a figure of Christ, and did represent unto the people, the chiefty and superiority of our Saviour Christ, which was to come: and that our amour Christ, being come, there is now no cause why there should be any such pre-eminence given unto one, and further that it is unlawful that there should be any such, (a) A Popish non sequitur. unless it be lawful to have one head Bishop over all the Church, for it is known, that that priest was the head priest over all the whole Church, which was during his time, unto our Saviour Christ. Io. Whitgifte. The high priest was a figure of Christ, so was David and Solomon: but yet was the high priest also appointed to govern other for order and policy, and so was David and Solomon. The figure is taken a way and the kind of Sacrifice: but the office of governing remains still, and is to be observed as the state of the Church requireth. Christ being come, the office of sacrificing ceaseth but not the office of governing: for Christ by his coming did not take away government, and policy, no notfrom the 〈◊〉 state. This reason of yours, that that priest was the head priest over all the Church, therefore if by A popish reason used by the replier. his example we will have an Archbishop he must be such a one as shall govern the whole church, is in deed a plain confirmation of the Papists reason for the supremacy, who think that they may reason in like manner. But I answer you as M. Caluine answereth them Lib. inst. cap. 8. Sect. 87. There is no reason that compelleth to extend that unto the whole Caluine. world, which was profitable in one nation: nay rather there is a great diversity betwixt one nation and the whole world. Because the jews were compassed in on every side with Idolaters, lest they should be withdrawn through the variety of Religion, God did place the seat of his worship in the midst of the earth: there he appointed over them one prelate, whom all should look upon, that they might the better be contained in unity. Now when as true Religion is dispersed through out the whole world, who doth not see it to be absurd, that the government of both the East & West, should be given to one? it is like as if one would say, because one precinct of ground hath not many governors, therefore the whole world aught to be ruled of one precedent or governor. I know that he maketh another answer likewise: even the same that you have borrowed of him, touching the figure, but his first answer is more direct in my opinion. And M. Nowell, against Dorman reasoning as you do, giveth him this answer, Nowell. It agreeth very well with the estate of the jews, that as they being one nation had one chief Lib. 1. 63. Priest, so is it good likewise that every Christian nation have their chief Priest or Bishop. It agreeth not that because the jews, one nation, had one high Priest to govern them in doubts, therefore all nations through the world should have one high priest over all other: for not only the unlikelihood between these two, but the impossibili ie of the latter is most evident. Other learned men also there be, as Hyp rius Lib. 3 Method Theolog & diverse vers others, who answering this same argument of the Papists, say, that by it we may well prove that one Archbishop or Metropolitan may govern one Province, or one kingdom, but that it is to weak to prove that one Pope may govern all t e world. Now be it you had rather give strength to the adversary, than lack arguments to the defence of your cause. Chap. 4. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 93. Line. 1. And as for those titles chief of the Synagogue, chief of the ss nctuarie, chief of the house of God. I say that that maketh much against Archbishops & Archbeacons, for when as in stead of the Synagogue, & of the sanc vary, and of the house of God or tempee, are come part cular churches and congregations, by this reason it followeth, that there should be some j f, not in every province or dioesse, but in every congregation, & in deed so aught there to be certain chief in ever congregation, which should govern and rule the rest. And as for the chief of the families of the Levites, & chief of the families of the priests, the same was observed in all other tribes of Israel, and by all these Princes over every tribe and fam le, as by the Prince of the whole l nde God did as it were by divers lively pictures imprint in their understanding the chiet ie and domination of our Saviour Christ. Besides this the order which was appointed in this point, was observed in all the tribes. Io. Whitgifte. These titles be as glorious as any that are now remaining in our church. And my The Reply slippeth by the matter. L. of Sarum speaketh oh names, to the which you do not answer one word, but s k out other matter to blind the Reader with▪ lest he should behold your folly. But I will follow you. You say that in stead of the Synagogues. etc. are come particular Churches and congregations. etc. and I say unto you, that they had then particular Synagogues as well as we have now particular Churches, the which you your sell e in ffect have confessed before. And you must understand, that one Christian common weal is but Pag. 22. line. 1. one Church, as it was among the I was, & th' rfore such offices of government may be such in the Church, as was 〈◊〉 the jews, and such superiority among ministers, as was then amongst Priests and evites And I marvel that you will deny this, especially seeing that you would de us to the ciu ll law of Moses, whereof this is a portion. You add that by all these princes over every tribe and fainilie, as by the prince of the whole land, God did as it were. etc. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉, xcept you will also take away the Prince of the whole land▪ As this order among the jews was observed in all tribes: so is it now in all Provinces and Diocese. This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring, and that t not to the purpose, for the A swear speaketh of na es and you drive it to offices. Indeed you almost in no place reason ad Idem, which is a maniiest argument, that you are but a shifting caviller. Chap. 4. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreover these orders and policies touching the distribution of the offices of the Levites and priests, and touching the appoin meant of their governors, were done of David by the (*) advise 2. Chro. 19 of the Prophets, Gad and Nathan, which received of the Lord by commandment; that which they delivered unto David. And if so be that it can be showed, that Archbishops and Archdeacon's came into the church by any commandment of the Lord, than this allegation hath some force, but now being not only not 〈◊〉, but also (as I have showed) forbidden, every man doth see that this reason hath no place, but serveth to the utter overthrow of the Archbishop and Archdeacon. For if David being such a notable parsonage, and as it were an Angel of God, durst not take upon him to bring into the Church, any orders or policies, not only not against the word of God, but not without a precise word and commandment of God, who shall dare be so bold as to take upon him the institution of the chief office of the Church, and to altar the policy that God hath appointed by his servants the Apostles? Io. Whitgifte. You run away with the matter, as though all were clear when as it is not so. You affirm, that David did appoint these orders & policies touching the distribution of the offices of the levites & Priests. etc. by the eduise of Gad, and Nathan the prophets of God. And for proof hereof you quote in the margin. 2. Chron. 19 where there is not one word for your purpose, or signifying any such thing. In deed in the 2. chro. 29. there is affirmed the like thing. But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you, that such negative reasons are very weak. And if you will deny it to be a negative reason from authority, yet can you not deny but that it is as feeble an argument as almost can be. For what if David did appoint these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the levites & priests etc. doth it therefore follow that the church at no time may appoint such offices as shall be thought meet for the government of it, according to the time, places, and people? where have you learned of a singular example to make a general rule, or to frame an argument ex solis particularibus? In the. 2. Chro. 19 which you have quoted in the margin, there is a not able place Scripture alleged against himself. against you: for there express mention is made that jehosaphat set in jerusalem of the Levites, and of the Priests. etc. for the judgement and cause of the Lord, and made Amariah the Priest chief over them: neither were they judges for the city 2. Chron. 19 of jerusalem only, but for the whole country. And yet we read not of any commandment vers. 8. that jehosaphat had, so to do. Chap. 4. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 93, Sect. 1 And where the Bishop saith, it is known and confessed that there wanted many things to the perfection of the Church of the jews: truly I do not know, nor can not confess that that Church wanted (*) This is directly contrary to yourself. any thing to the perfection of that estate, which the Lord would have them be in, until the coming of our saviour Christ. And if there were any thing wanting, it was not for want of good laws and policies, whereof the question is, but for want of due execution of them, which we speak not of. Io. Whitgifte. Conueniet nulli. etc. Now can he agree with any other man, that doth not agreed with himself? For before (after you have recited divers things left to the T. C. contrary to himself. order of that Church of the jews, for the which they had no express word) You say, that you will offer for one that I bring that we have left to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Church, to show that they had twenty, which were undecided by the express word of God. And here you say, that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate: how you will reconcile yourself, I know not: or whether it be your pleasure not to respect your own credit, so that you may seem to discredit that which that notable Bishop hath spoken: but that which I have alleged of jehosaphat, 2. Chro. 19 doth manifestly justify my Lord of Sarisburies' saying, and condemneth yours. For there it is to be seen that in matters of government, orders were appointed which neither were commanded by any express commandment of God, neither yet expressed in the word of God. But of this matter I have spoken before. Chap. 4 the. 14. Division. The third Reason. Where the substance of anything is most perfit, there the accidents be most perfit: but Tertia ratio. the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfect in the primitive Church: and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Answer of the Bishop. First, this 〈◊〉 is not proved: for it may well be doubted, whether the Eius solutio. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath evermore most porfit accidents. And again the substance of Religion is the same now that it was then: the difference if there be any, standeth in accidents, and not in substance. Therefore this 〈◊〉 of substance and accidents was not needful. In the primitive Church God raised up Apostles, and Prophets, and gave them power ex , as the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of government, etc. In place where of he hath now given Universities, Schools, Bishops, 〈◊〉 shops, etc. But you say there was then no Archbishop. So may you say that before king Saul there was no king in Israel. So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times, there was neither Duke nor Earl in England. So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitive Church, there was neither Dean, nor person, 〈◊〉 prebendary. And yet now both in Ecclesiastical and civil go , 〈◊〉 these are thought necessary. Last of all, where you say there was no And by shop in the primitive Church, it is written by many that S. Paul made 〈◊〉 Archbishop of Creta. Erasmus says, Paulus Titum Archiepiscopum Eras. in arg. epi. ad Titum Chryso . cap. Tit. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And Lyra likewise saith Paulus instituit Titum Archiepiscopum 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 authorities like you not: Chrysostom saith Paulus Tito mul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commisit. Now having the government of many Bishops, 〈◊〉 may we call him but an Archbishop. T. C. Page 93. Sect. 2. For the 〈◊〉 hast reasons against the Archbishop and Archdeacon, although I be well acquayn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that favour this cause, yet I did never hear them before in my life: and I believe their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is be his reasons, whose they are supposed to be, and which did set down the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bishop confuteth. Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 to be grounded of that place of Logic, that showeth, that according as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any thing is excellent, so are those things that are annexed and adjoined unto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would she simplest should understand what is said or written, I will willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reasons, the terms whereof are not easily perceived, but of those which be 〈◊〉. Io. Whitgifte. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you may dilclaime what you list, for you could never be brought before The inconstancy of the replier & his companions. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 down your reasons in writing: and there is no hold at your word, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, even at your pleasure, and so will diverse of your come as 〈◊〉 hath taught. But yet you think that this former reason hath a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. etc. 〈◊〉, you answer not one word to my L. of Sarums solution, which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very fond. Chap. 4. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 3 And as for the answer which the Bishop maketh, that in place of Apostles, Prophets, the gifts of tongues, of healing, & of government, are brought in universities, schools, Bishops & Archbishops: for schools & universities, I have shewco they have been always, & therefore cannot come in, to supply the room of the Apostles & prophets. And whether a man consider the scholars that learn, or the schoolmasters which teach, or the orders appointed for the government of the schools, they shall be found to be rather civil than Ecclesiastical, and therefore can not come in stead of any Ecclesiastical ministery. If the Bishop do mean that they come in place of the gift of the tongues, and knowledge of the Gospel that was first given miraculously, I grant it, and then it maketh nothing to this question. Io. Whitgifte. You have not showed that schools & universities were always in the Church of Christ nor you cannot show that there were any universities or schools of Christians in the Apostles time. I am not disposed to contrary any thing that is alleged for universities or schools: neither would I have you to deny this truth affirmed by my L. of Sarum for it is certain that God worketh now in the Church by means of universities & schools, that which he wrought in the Apostles time miraculously, by his Apostles & prophets. And those gifts of tongues, healing, government. etc. which he then inspired at once without teaching, doth he now give by little & little using the ministry of schools, universities, & such like: wherefore it is true that the Bishop hath said. And whereas you say the schools whether a man consider the scholars that learn, or the schoolmasters which teach, or orders appointed for the government of the schools, they shall be found rather civil than Ecclesiastical: If you speak of schools in a profane or heathenish common wealth, it is true. But if you speak of a Christian kingdom it is most untrue. For in a Christian common wealth, schools are the first nurses, that bring up children in the true knowledge of God, & of his word, & prepare many of them to the ministery, both which are Ecclesiastical. Moreover if you talk of universities, such especially as be in this Realm of England, then whether you consider either the masters, fellows, or scholars, or rules or orders appointed for the government of them, they be for the most part Ecclesiastical, and therefore those things make greatly for the purpose, and you have said nothing that can overthrow them. Chap. 4. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 4. As for Bishops they can not come in place of Apostles or prophets, for as much as they were when the Apostles, Evangelists & prophets were, & are one of those ministries, which S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians, being the same that is the pastor. Io. Whitgifte. I told you before, that the part of the Apostles office which consisted in government, is now remaining in Archbishops and Bishops, as to visit Churches, to reform disorders, to suppress contentions and such like: which also they practised in the Apostles time, in such places as were committed unto them by the Apostles, as it is evident in Timothy and Titus. That Bishops do succeed the Apostles in this function of government it may appear Bishops succeed Apostles in government. Cyprian. by sundry learned writers Cyprian Lib. 3. Epist. 9 writeth thus. But Deacons must remember that the Lord hath choose Apostles, that is to say Bishops and chief governors, but the Apostles after the Ascension of the Lord into heaven did appoint unto themselves Deacons, Ministers, of their Bishopric, and of the Church. And Ambrose in. 4. ad Ephe. Ambrose. Zuinglius. says, Apostoli Episcopi sunt: Apostles are Bishops. Zuinglius also in his Ecclesiastes says that the Apostles when they left of going from place to place, and remained in one Church, were no more called Apostles but Bishops, as james at jerusalem, and john at Ephesus. Whereby it may appear that it seemeth strange neither to the old writers, nor to to the new, to say that Bishops succeed the Apostles and come in place of the . Chap. 4. the. 17. Division. T. C. Page. 93. Sect. ult. There remaineth therefore the archbishop, which if he came in place of the Prophets and Apostles (as the Bishop saith) how cometh it to pass, that the bishop saith by and by out of the authority of Erasmus that Titus was an archbishop: for at that time there was both Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists. If it be so therefore, that the archbishop must supply the want of Apostles. etc. how cometh it to pass, he waiteth not his time whilst they were dead, but cometh in like unto one which is born out of time, and like the untimely and hasty fruit, which is seldom or never wholesome. And for one to come into the Apostles or Prophets' place, requirerh the authority of him which ordained the Apostles. etc. which is the Lord, and his institution in his word, which is that which we desire to be showed. But hereof I have spoken before at large. Io. Whitgifte. It is not unknown to such as be willing to learn, that where the Apostles could not be present themselves, there they appointed some other to govern the Churches for them: as the Apostle Paul did Titus at Creta. Therefore this reason of yours is sóone answered. And in that that the Apostles did appoint bishops in Churches which they had planted, and gave unto them such authority, it is evident that therein they made them their successors, which they did not without sufficient testimony and warrant of the spirit of God: and therefore you do but talk, you prove nothing. Chap. 4. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 94. Lin. 9 & Sect. 1. 2. The necessity of Deans I do not acknowledge, & I have already spoken of them. Touching Prebendaties I shall have occasion to speak a word hereafter. For Earls and Dukes and such like titles of honour they are civil, neither doth it follow, that because there may new titles or new offices be brought into the civil government, that therefore the same may be attempted in the Church. For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting things in the common wealth than in the Church. For, for so much as there be divers Common wealths, and divers forms of common wealths, and all good, it falls out, that the offices and dignities which are good in one common wealth, are not good in an other: as those which are good in a Monarchy, are not good in aristocraty: and those which are good in aristocraty: are not good in a popular state: But that can not be said of the Church which is but one and uniform, and hath the same laws, and form of government through out the world. In common wealths also, there are conversions, one form being changed into an other which can not be in the true Church of God. Io. Whitgifte. Your acknowledging or not acknowledging the necessity of Deans. etc. is not greatly material: they depend not upon you. To the example of king Saul the first king of Israel, you say nothing, and yet it is material. There is no such difference betwixt the civil government of the common wealth, and the external government of the Church, but that the one in many things may be used as an example for the other. And it is untrue that the external form of government in the Church aught to be one, and the self same thorough out the world in all times and places, as it shall hereafter more fully appear. But still I would have the Reader to note Tract. 17. what kind of government of the Church you do allow: and join the same with that assertion of yours, that the government of the common wealth must be framed according to the government of the Church, as the hangyngs to the house. Chap. 4. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 94. Sect. 2. As for Erasmus authority which says that Titus was an archbishop, I have answered to it. And where as Chrysostom sayeth, that the judgement of many Bishops was committed to Titus, * untrue, for you have not as yet spoken one word of it. I have declared in what sort it is to be understanded, and yet upon these words the Bishop can hardly conclude, that which he doth: that Titus had the government of many Bishops. For it is one thing to say, the judgement of many was committed unto Titus, and an other thing to say, that he had the government of many. Io. Whitgifte. And shall the same answer serve for Lyra too? Well I have answered your answer to Erasmus. And I trust that these authorities with the Godly Reader shall have the more credit, because this Reverend Father doth herein confirm their opinions: whose judgement for his singular virtue and learning, aught to be more esteemed, than a number such as you are. You neither have answered, nor do answer, nor can answer these words of Chrysostom, and it is but a very poor shift, to make such a distinction betwixt judgement and government. For what is it else to have the judgement of many bishops committed unto him, but to have the government? show a difference if you can: Not doubt you would have done it, if you could. Wherefore this authority of Chrysostom remaineth untouched: and it confirmeth my answer to the Greek Scholiast, who borrowed his words of him. Neither would you have thus dallied in this place, if you had looked upon Chrysostom's words, who there affirmeth, that Paul did commit to Titus, the whole isle of Creta. Chap. 4. the. 20. Division. The fourth Reason. The Ecclesiastical and Civil government may not be confounded, or be together Quarta ratio. in one person. But to be a chief or a ruler is a civil power Ergo it can not be exercised by any Ecclesiastical person. The answer of the Bishop. Both these governments were confounded in Moses: Therefore Eius solutio. they may be confounded. And the priests of Israel had the judgement and government of the people. And Saint Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes, as it appeareth by Possidonius. And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a civil government, nay in Ecclesiastical causes it is ecclesiastical government and not civil. And these differences of government may not so unadvisedly be confounded. This is the key of ecclesiastical correction, and belongeth only to the ecclesiastical officer, and to none other. Hereof S. Paul saith, Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub. etc. Tradidi illum Satanae. etc. This jurisdiction is not civil but ecclesiastical, and therefore may be exercised by any ecclesiastical person. T. C. Page. 94. Sect. 3 The answer of the Bishop unto the fourth supposed reason, pertaineth unto an other question, that is, whether Ecclesiastical people ought to exercise civil jurisdiction, whereunto I will answer by God's grace when I come to speak upon occasion of M. Doctor's book of that question. In the mean time I will desire the reader to consider what weak grounds the archbishop and archdeacon stand upon, seeing that the Bishop of Sarum, being so learned a man, and of so great reading, could say no more in their defence, which notwithstanding in the controversies against Doctor Harding is so pithy and so plentiful. Io. Whitgifte. The Bishop of Sarum hath said much more than you have answered unto: and in the respect of the reasons he hath said fully enough. You may not think but that if he had been disposed to have dealt of purpose in this cause, he could have said much more. But your secret and privy nips, whereby y u 〈◊〉 to the Reader, that he would willingly defend a false cause, shall never be able to deface so worthy a Prelate. You may perceive by this his conclusion (〈◊〉 toucheth you so near) that he took no great care or time for answering these weak reasons: for thus he concludeth, I beseech you to take these sudden answers in good part: As for these reasons, in my judgement they are not made to build up, and they are to weak to pull down. Stultitia nata est in cord pueri, & virga disciplinae fugabit illam. Proverb. 22. It is but wantonness, correction will help it. Thus have I answered in his behalf, who both in this and other like controversies, might have been a great stay to this Church of England, if we had been worthy of him. But whilst he lived, and especially after his notable and most profitable travails, he received the same reward of wicked and ungrateful tongues, that other men be exercised with, and all must look for, that will do their duty. But now again to T. C. The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatives, and the estate of the old Bishops, (assigned by T. C.) examined. Chap. 5. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 94. Sect 4. Now I have showed how little those things which M. Doctor bringeth, make for proof of that wherefore he allegeth them, I will for the better understanding of the reader set down what were the causes why the Archbishops were first ordained▪ and what were their prerogatives and pre-eminences before other Bishops, and the estate also of the old Bishops, which lived in those times, wherein although there were great corruptions, yet the Church was 〈◊〉 some tolerable estate, to the intent it may appear, partly how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we have of them now, & partly also how great difference there is between ours and them. O the names of metropolitans it hath been spoken, how that he should not be called the chief oh priests, or the high priest, or Bishop of Bishops: Now I will set down their office and power, which they had more than the Bishops. Io. Whitgifte. If you have no more truth in your words following, than you utter in the beginning of these: or if you deal no soundlier in them, than you have done in the other, M. Doctor's proofs shall serve the turn. But it is in vain to answer words, I will therefore come to your matter. Chap. 5. the. 2. Division. T. C. Page. 94. Sect. 5. In the Council of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitan seat, called (a) An unt 〈◊〉▪ 〈◊〉 there is no such thing in that much canon . Chap. 9 Synods, & propounded the matters which were to be handled, etc. The archbishop doth not ewe call Synods, but the Prince doth, forasmuch as there is no convocation without a parliament, and he doth not propound the matters, and gather the voices, but an other choose, which is called prolocutor: therefore in the respect that an Archbishop, and Metropolitan was tyrst ordained, we have no need of an archbishop or Metropolitan. Again, an other cause also appeareth there (b) An 〈◊〉 truth. which was to see that the Bishops kept themselves within their own di cease, and broke not into an others Diocese, but first this may be done without an archbishop, and then it is not done of the archbishop himself, giving licences unto the wandering ministers to go throughout not so few as a dozen diocese: therefore the office of an archbishop is not necessary in this respect, and if it were, yet it must be other than it is now. Io. Whitgifte. There is no Council more flat against you, than is that Council of Antioch, nor any Canon that overthroweth your assertion more directly than that ninth Canon, the words whereof I have repeated before, but your untrue allegation in a manner compelleth me to repeat them again, that the Reader may see before his eyes, what truth there is in your doings. And although it do pertain to the office of the Metropolitan or archbishop to call Synods, yet is there not one word thereof in this Cannon, nor yet of propounding any matters in Synods, or of seeing Bishops keep themselves within their own diocese, as you do here avouch without all truth: and notwithstanding as I said before, those things do pertain to the office of the archbishop: yet if they were also comprehended in that Canon, it were rather a confirmation of that office, than otherwise. The contents of that Canon be only these: first it sayeth, that it behoveth the Bishops of every country or province to know their Metropolitan Bishop to have the care and oversight, or government over the whole Province. By the which words, the authority and name of a Metropolitan or archbishop is most pl ynely confirmed, and proved to be a permanent of ce: Secondly, this Canon willeth all those that have any business to do, to resort to the Metropolitan city. Whereby also is given to the Metropolitan Bishop great pre-eminence: and therefore it followeth immediately, that he should excel all the rest in honour: and that the other Bishops should do nothing of importance without him: according to the old rule made by their forefathers, but only those things which pertain to their own diocese: and those places and possessions that pertain unto the same. In which words who seeth not what pre-eminence is given to the Metropolitan over all the Bishops in his Province: and what jurisdiction to the Bishop in his own diocese and places pertaining unto it? where also it is to be noted that the Council sayeth, secundiòn antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam: according to the ancient rule appointed of our forefathers. Which argueth a great antiquity of this office. Then it followeth: for every Bishop hath authority over his own Diocese, to rule and govern it, juxta reverentiam singulis competentem, according to the reverence due unto every one of them, and that he hath especial care of that whole region that i subject to his City, so that he may ordain Priests and Deaeons, & singulasuo iuditio comprehendat. But he may not attempt any other thing without the Metropolitan Bishop, nor the Metropolitan do any thing without the counsel of the other Priests. What can be more plain, either for the authority of the Arch bishop, or jurisdiction of the Bishop? and what one word of this Canon have you truly alleged? and yet it is quoted in your margin. But if we imagine those things to be true, which you say, how will you conclude? forsooth, that the Metropolitan did then call Synods, and propounded the matters, but now he doth not call Synods, and propound the matters: Therefore there is now no need of a Metropolitan. first it is untrue, that metropolitans did then call either all Synods, or that they called them of their own authority without the consent of the Prince, and Civil Magistrate: which thing is evident when the Magistrates were christened. The Council of Nice was summoned by the commandment of Constantine Co cells sum moaned by Princes. Euse de vita Constan lib. 3. the Emperor, Eusebius de vita Constanti. lib. 3. Constantius called the Council which was in Sardica civitate. The Bishops in the Council of Constanti. confess, that they came together by the Emperors writ. Ambrose in the Council of Aquileia, speaking of him 〈◊〉 and of other bishops sayeth, that they were assembled out at Aquileia, by the commandment of the Emperor: The same doth Jerome testify concerning a Council held at Rome, In Epita. Pauli. Pope julio Epist. 9 ad Theodos. desireth the Emperor, that by his authority there might be a Council in italy. Zozomen. libr. 6. cap. 7. showeth how certain catholic Bishops entreated the Emperor, that they might have leave to gather together for the redressing of certain errors. But hat shall I need to labour in a matter most manifest? No man can be ignorant that readeth Ecclesiastical stories, but that the Emperors authority was razors quired in summoning Counsels and Synods, not only general, but provincial also. Secondly, it is untrue that the Metropolitan in this Church doth not call Synods, or propoundeth not the matters in them. etc. For he doth both, although he calleth no Provincial Synod, without the command meant of the Prince, no more than other metropolitans have one in the best time of the Church under christ an Princes. last of all, though all this were true, that is éere untruly affirmed, yet were the office of an archbishop necessary, for it doth not only consist in calling Synods, but in sundry things beside, as I have showed before, and this council of Antioch manifestly declareth. And surely if you would prove any thing hereof directly, it s old be this, that eyth r the archbishop doth not exercise that jurisdiction which he ought to do, or else can not do that which pertaineth to his office, and so should you speak for the amendment of the Archbishop's jurisdiction. Again, you say an other cause appeareth there, which was to see that the Bishops kept themselves within their own diocese. etc. but first this may be done without an Archbishop. etc. I tell you there is no such thing in that ninth Canon: I say further, that it may best an mos e orderly be done by an Archebis oppe. thirdly, I answer as before, that it is but one part of his office. fourthly, I say unto you, that this is a simple Argument, the archbishop doth not keep such old Canons as be not in use in this Church, therefore there is no need of his office. last of all, you ought to know, that th' see whom you call wandering ministers, be faithful Preachers a number of them: And such as labour diligently in preaching the word, and have not a little profited the flock of christ, so that your conclusion is not worth a straw. Chap. 5. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 1 Again the cause why the Metropolitan differed from the rest, and why the calling of the Synod was given to him, as it appeareth in the same Council, was for that the Chap. 9 greatest concour e was to that place, and most assembly of men, whereunto also may be added, for that there was the best commodity of lodging and of vittayling, and for that as it appeareth in other councils, it was the place and fear of the Empire. But with us neither the greatest conc urse nor assembly of men, nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vittayi g, neither yet the seat of the kingdom is in the Metropolitan city, therefore with us there is no such cause of a Metropolitan or archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. This is not alleged as a cause why there should be a Metropolitan, or why he differed from the rest, or why the calling of the Synod was given unto him, but rather why he was placed in the chief city: so that these words touch not the Metropolitan or his office, but the aptness of the place where he should continued. And yet if credit be to be given yther to interpreters, or to the gloss in Gratian, caus. 9 quae. 3. per singulas, the words be not as you interpret them, for thus they be set down in the book of Counsels, Tom. 1. Pr pter quod ad Metropolim omnes undique qui negoti videntur habere concurrant, For the which let all that have any business have recourse from all places into the Metropolitan city. another ranslation is thus: Propter quod ad Metropolitanam civitatem ab his qui causas habent con urratur. And this last interpretation the authors of the Centuries do use. Cent. 4. Of which words there can be no such thing gathered, as you do imagine, but far otherwise. And the meaning of the Council is, that such as have causes to be herded, may resort to the Metropolitan city where the Metropolitan is. And you must understand that it was in the power of the Emperor, and other Princes, to appoint the seat of the Metropolitan, where it pleased them, as it appeareth in the. 12. cap. of the Council of Chalcedon, and in the. 17. Hom. of Chrysostom, Ad populum Antiochenum. Chap. 5. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 2. In the Council of Carthage held in Cyprians time, it appeareth that no Bishop had authority over an other, to compel an other, or to condemn an other, but every Bishop was left at his own liberty to answer unto God, and to make his account unto Christ, and if any thing were done against any Bishop, it was done by the consent of all the bishops in the province, or as many as could convemently assemble. Therefore Cyprian which was the Metropolitan bishop, had then no authority over the rest, and yet then there being no christian magistrate T C con esseth Cyprian to be a Metropolitan. which would punish the disorders which were committed of the christian bishops, there was greatest, need that there should have been some one, which might have had the correction of the rest. If therefore when there was most need of this absolute authority, there neither was nor might be any such, it followeth that now we have a Christian magistrate, which may and aught to punish the disorders of the Ecclesiastical people, and may and aught to call them to accounted for their faults, that there should be no such need of an Archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. You here fall into the same fault that a little before you ascribed to me, for you come back from the Council of Antioch, which was Anno. 360. to the Council of Carthage, being Anno. 260. I omit to tell you, that that Council concluded an heresy for the which only it was assembled. And therefore though it be in the book of the councils, yet is it not reckoned among the Counsels: Only I demand the words of that Council that do signify one Bishop not to have had authority over an other. I told you before out of Cyprian himself, and out of Gregory Nazianzene, that he had ample and large jurisdiction. The words of Cyprian in that Council, which seem to touch the matter you talk of, I have expounded and answered before, they make not for your purpose. It is no reason to prove that a Bishop must not be subject to any, because he is left at his own liberty to answer to God, and to make his account unto Christ, For by the same reason he might be exempled from the authority of the Civil Magistrate, and from all Laws and orders touching Church matters, and so might every private man in like manner. But you must remember that a Bishop is so left to his own liberty, to answer unto God, and make account unto christ, that he must also acknowledge his duty towards man: and be subject to orders and laws. What do you say for the freedom of a Bishop from obedience unto the archbishop, but it may be said likewise of his freedom from subjection to his Prince in like matters: and of every Anabaptist, for his deliverance from subjection to all superiors▪ Wherefore you wring Cyprians words to an evil sense. You have been often told that no Archbishop hath such power over either Bishop or inferior minister, that of his own authority he can do any thing against them. The laws of the realm will not suffer it, no the Canon law doth by no means permit it: And therefore you do but dream of an authority that is not. Cyprian being a Metropolitan had authority over the rest. The civil Magistrate doth govern the ecclesiastical state, punisheth disorders among them, calleth them to account for their faults by archbishops, Bishops, and other officers, as he doth the same in the civil state, by civil magistrates. Your meaning is not (I dare say) to have the Prince hear all matters herself: You will give her leave to appoint under officers, as Moses, David, Solomon, jehosaphat, & other good kings have done. If you will not allow the Magistrate so to do, let us understand your reasons, for surely I believe there is some such toy in your head. Chap. 5. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 3 The moderation of their authority in the ancient times may appear first, by a canon which is falsely given to the Apostles, being as it is like a canon of the council of Antioch (*) This canon is 〈◊〉 both by adding, and 〈◊〉 when in although 34. Canon. it ordaineth one Primate in every nation over the rest, and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him, as also will not suffer him to do any thing without the rest, yet every Bishop might do that which appertained unto his own parish, without him, (a) This you add unto the canon. and he nothing to do with him in it. But as it seemeth the meaning of the canon was, that if there were any weighty matter to be concluded for all the Churches in the nation, than the bishops of every parish should not enterprise any thing without calling him to council. Now we see that the Archbishop meddleth with that which every Bishop doth in his own diocese, and hath his visitations for that purpose, and will take any matter out of their hands, concludeth also of divers matters, never making the Bishops once privy to his doings. Io. Whitgifte. If it be a false canon or falsely given to the Apostles, why do you use it as a proof? I might aye unto you, as you said before unto me: have you such penury of proofs, that you are constrained to allege false canons? if it be a canon of the Council of Antioch, show what canon it is: if it be within that Council, undoubtedly it is the. 9 canon before by you alleged, and how much that proves your cause the very ignorant reader may judge. But let us hear this canon be it true or false, and consider your collections of it: The canon alleged against himself. the words I have recited before, but I will set them down again, that your pithy reasons (reasoning altogether against yourself) may appear. The Bishops of every nation or country must know who amongst them is chief, whom they aught to esteem Can. Apost. 34. as their head, and do nothing without his council, besides those things only, which belong unto their own parish, and the places which are under it: neither aught he to do any thing without the advise of them all: for so shall there be concord, and God shall be glorified by Christ jesus in the holy Ghost. etc. Here first there must be a Primate or chief Bishop (that is Archbishop) of every nation or country, whom the rest of the bishops must acknowledge as it were for their head. Secondly, the Bishops must do nothing unaccustomed without him. Thirdly, that the other Bishops may do those things only quae ad parochiam eius, & regiones ei subditas pertinent: Which pertain unto his parish, and places subject unto it which last words you leave out. Last of all, that this Primate must do nothing without their consents: what hath the Archbishop lost by this canon? surely not one jot: I think verily he doth not require so much▪ Every bishop may do as much in his own diocese now, (the authority of the Prince and her laws reserved) as he might do by that canon, for the Archbishop doth not rule by will, but by law, not of himself, but under the Prince, to whom both he and all other bishops be subject. You hit nothing less than the meaning of the canon: nay undoubtedly you imagine a sense contrary to the express words of the canon. When the Archbishop doth visit, it is not to make new laws, or appoint new orders (except he be commanded so to do by greater authority) but to see those orders and laws kept, that all Bishops and other are bound unto, and therefore he doth nothing in their diocese contrary to that which they are bond to do, neither doth he conclude any thing without them, which by their consent and authority of the law and Prince is not given unto him. Chap. 5. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 4. Higinus or as some think Pelagius (I speak here as Platina reporteth, not thinking that Platina cap Higin. in Higinus time, there was any Metropolitan) ordained that no Metropolitan should condemn any Bishop, unless the matter were first both herded, and discussed by the bishops of that province, at what time, and after a great while, a bishop was the (*) A gross petitio of the principle, or rather an untruth. same we call a minister. Now the Archbishop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him, and in the end also throw him out of his charge, and if he have the same authority over a bishop, as a bishop over the minister, (as it is said) he may do the like unto him also. Io. Whitgifte. This is another forged witness (such sound proofs the man hath that reproves other men for the like) and yet God knoweth his witness maketh nothing for him. For who giveth authority to the Archbishop to deprive either Bishop or inferior minister, without due proof and examination of the cause? touching consent of other, if he deal with him according to law, then dealeth he with the consent, not of the other Bishops only, but of all the realm: because that which is done by law: is done by the consent of all that consented either to the confirming or making of that law. Your glances by the way, (that there was then no Metropolitan: that then the same were bishops which we now call ministers) because they be but barely affirmed, it shall be sufficient as flatly to deny them, and for proof thereof to refer the Reader unto that which hath been spoken before. Chap. 5. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 95. Sect. 5. The council of Antioch ordained, that if the voices of the bishops were even, and that if Can. 17. No such thing in the. 17. canon. half did condemn him, and half clear him, that then the Metropolitan bishop should call of the next province some other bishops, which should make an end of the controversy: whereby appeareth that the Metropolitan had so small authority and power over and above the rest, that he had not so much as the casting voice, when both sides were even. And therefore it appeareth that besides the names of Metropolitan, there was little or no resemblance between those that were then, and those which be now. Io. Whitgifte. You have written in the margin the. 17. canon of that council, in the which there are no such words, nor any thing tending to that purpose: it is the. 14. canon, that I think you mean, for in that canon it is thus determined: that if a Bishop be judged for Con. Antio. ca 14. certain crimes and it happen that the other bishops of the same province vary in judgement, some thinking him to be innocent, some guilty, for the resolving of all doubt, it pleased the holy Synod, that the Metropolitan bishop shall call for other judges out of the next province, to end the controversy, who together with the Bishops of the same province, shall approve that which is just and right. Here is no mention of equality in voices, but only of disagréeing in judgement among the Bishops of the same province. Likewise in this canon it appeareth that a Metropolitan had authority over more provinces than one, for he might call the Bishops of another province to decide the matter, if the Bishops of the same province could not agree. I see not how this canon can any thing help you: for now neither the Metropolitan, The authority of archbishops and bishops, less, than in times past. nor all the Bishops in the province can deprive any Bishop without the consent of the Prince: so that in that point the authority of the Metropolitan is nothing increased, nor yet the authority of the Bishops. For then as it appeareth in the▪ 〈◊〉 canon of that council, if a Priest or a Deacon had been condemned of his own bishop, oh a bishop of a Synod, it was not lawful for them to complain to the Emperor: if they Can. 12. had complained, it was determined in the same canon, that they should never be pardoned, nor have any place of satisfaction, nor hope of restitution. But now it is far otherwise. The. 11. canon of the same council is much to the same effect. Wherefore the Can. 11. authority of the Metropolitan & other Bishops is not increased as you presend, but both the Metropolitan and other Bishops had as much authority then over other priests, ministers, and deacons, as they have now, as appeareth by sundry canons of the same council. In the. 4. canon it is decreed, that if a Bishop condemned by a Synod, or a priest, or Canon. 4. a Deacon condemned by his own Bishop, shall take upon him to exercise any mini terie, he shall be without all hope of restitution, and who soever doth communicate with him, shall be excommunicated. In the. 5 canon it is thus determined: If any priest or deacon Canon. 5. contemning his proper Bishop, hath separated himself from the Church, and gathering people apart, hath erected an altar, and hath not obeyed the admonition of his Bishop, neither hath consented and agreed unto him calling him back divers times, let this man be condemned, and deposed by all means, and let him not obtain any remedy afterward, because he cannot receive again his dignity. But if he persist to trouble the Church, let him be corrected by the outward power as a seditious person. By these canons it is evident that the Bishop of every several diocese had authority by himself to excommunicate, to deprive, and to seclude from the ministery any priest, deacon, or any other of the clergy in more ample and large manner, than he hath at this day. The which thing also may be seen in the. 6. &. 12. canons of the same Council: so that you have sought for help at the Council, which is one of the greatest enemies to this your assertion, and doth flatly condemn it. divers canons of the which Council, if they were practised, would soon remedy the sects and schisms which you have stirred. Chap. 5. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. ult. Now, to consider how the Bishops which are now, differ from the Bishops, which were in times past, I must call to thy remembrance (gentle reader) that which I have spoken before, which was that then there was, as appeareth out of Cyprian, and Jerome and others, one Bishop in every Many untruths heaped together parish or congregation: now one is over a thousand, than every Bishop had a several Church where he preached and ministered the sacraments: now he hath none, than he ruled that one Church (as I showed out of Jerome) in common with the elders of the same: now he ruleth a thousand by himself, shutting out the ministers, to whom the rule and government belongeth: then he ordained not any minister of the Church, except he were first choose by the presbytery, and approved by the people of that place whereunto he was ordained: now he ordaineth where there is no place void, and of his private authority, without either choice or approbation of presbytery or people. Then he excommunicated not, nor received the excommunicated, but by sentences of the eldership, and consent of the people, as shall appear afterward: now he doth both. And thus you see that contrary to the word of God, he hath got into his own hand, and pulled to himself both the pre-eminence of the other ministers, and the liberties of the Church, which God by his word had given. Io. Whitgifte. There is scarce one word of all this true, and surely I much marvel that you dare be so bold so manifestly to speak against your own conscience & knowledge. I have before sufficiently proved all that is here by you avouched, to be clean contrary for the most part. It shall be therefore sufficient, as briefly now to answer, as you do propound. Demetrius was Bishop of all the diocese in Egypt and Alexandria. Euse. li. 6. cap. 1 Cypr. li. 4. ep. 8 Chrisostome. Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Bishop of Carthage, Numidia, Mauritania, Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothy being Bishop had the government almost of the whole country of Asia, as Chrysostom declareth upon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Bishop of the whole isle of Creta, as the same Chrysost. testifieth ad Tit. 1. I ave before by sundry Idem. examples and testimonies, by divers counsels, and especially the council of Nice, 〈◊〉 the vanity & untruth of this that is here affirmed, that is, that there was one Bishop in every parish and congregation: and the words of Cyprian and Jerome be clean rary: for they both make a difference between a Bishop, to whom the government of many pastors is committed, and a pastor that hath but one several flock or charge. For further understanding whereof, I refer the Reader to that, which is spoken before. The bishops have now as several churches to preach and minister the sacraments in, as they had then. They have no more authority in government now, than they had at that time, nor so much: and yet if they had more authority than they either have now, or had then, I think it were more for the commodity of the Church, the state of the time, and conditions of men considered. As for ruling every several church by those, which you call Elders, you have showed no such thing out of Jerome, neither can you. For Jerome in that place you mean, by presbyteri means Priests, as he doth in all other places that I remember. Neither doth he there speak of particular parishes. Touching the electing and ordaining of ministers, sufficient hath been spoken before. Tract. 3. The Bishop doth nothing therein, but that which he may justly by the word of God, and testimony of the best and most worthy writers. Of excommunication we shall speak hereafter, you do glance at it now out of Tract. 18. place. And thus he that is an indifferent Reader may understand that the Bishops in these days in this Church of England have no other authority, than the word of God doth give unto them: The Bishops of the primitive Church have pract said: the liberty of the Church well beareth: and the state of the time, and condition of men requireth. Chap. 5. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any labour or travail, those they have turned unto the other ministers, as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy council. it was not lawful for him that was then an Hispal. con. ca elder, to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Bishop, because the Bishop himself should do it, and now those which they call elders, may preach and minister the sacraments by the bishops good licence, although he be present. Io. Whitgifte. There is no just cause of complaint for most of the Bishops in that behalf. For I think the time hath not been, wherein there were more preaching Bishops, than are at this day, in this Church. But do you think that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Bishop? Or do you so well allow of A corrupt council alleged. that Council and canon quoted in your margin? It was the second council called Hispalense concilium, it was not general, but provincial, celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alleged are these. That a Priest may not consecrated altars, but only the Bishop: that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrated virgins, erect altars, Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. bless and anoint them, hollow churches, make holy oil, and such like, but only the Bishop. Likewise that no priest may baptize, say Mass▪ teach the people, or bless them in the presence of the Bishop. Surely this is a worthy Council, and a notable canon, especially for you to allege, that have so depraved other worthy writers for some imperfections found in them. But what doth it make for your purpose? They might both preach and minister The council alleged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Bishop, if he willed them, and so is the canon. This law was made for the increasing of the bishops pomp and dignity: for no man might presume to speak or do any thing in their presence, without their leave and licence: so were they esteemed them, and such authority had they. But if our Bishops should claim the like, you would say that it were an untolerable arrogancy and pride. I would to God all those that be deluded by you, would consider your allegations, and the grounds of your proofs. Surely I would be loath to allege any Council of that time to prove any thing in controversy. Much more loath would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon: but loathest of all to allege that, which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause, & prove the clean contrary to that, which I affirm, as this doth in your 〈◊〉▪ And here I have one thing to tell you, that divers of those things, wherein you 〈◊〉 T. C. charges the office with the fault of the men. make this difference betwixt our Bishops and those of the primitive church, if t eye were true, yet were they no saults in the office, but in the men: as for example, this which you here set down. Will you make a difference in the offices of our Bishops and those of old time, because some of them do not preach? This compareth the men together, not the offices, except you prove that it is forbidden or unlawful for one of our Bishops to preach. There are other such like, which I omit. Chap. 5. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1 Now if you will also consider how much the Lord ship, pomp, and stateliness of the Bishops in our days, differ from the simplicity of them in times past▪ I will give you also a taste thereof, if first of all I show the beginning, or as it were the fountain where upon the pomp grew, which Mark how this is proved. was when in stead of having a Bishop in every parish and congregation, they began to make a Bishop of a whole diocese, and of a thousand congregations. Io. Whitgifte. If the pomp began as you say, then began it in the Apostles time, for than began they to make one Bishop over a whole diocese, as Timothy almost over all Asia, and Titus over all Creta, as I have declared. Which order hath been from that day to this observed throughout all Christendom, as it may appear by that, which is already said. Chap. 5. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie unto (*) It is an epistle oh Pope Zacharie to Boniface, not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface. Pope Boniface, it is thus written, it hath been oftentimes decreed, Concil. to. 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. that there should not be a Bishop appointed in every village▪ or little city, lest they should wax vile (a) An untruth as will appear. through the multitude: whereby it both appeareth that there was wont to be a Bishop in every parish, and upon how corrupt and evil consideration one Bishop was set over a whole diocese. No doubt, those that were authors of this, had learned to well our old proverb, the fewer the better cheer, but the more Bishops, the merrier it had been with God's people. Io. Whitgifte. This epistle was written by Pope Zacharie to one Boniface which was Bishop in France, and not to Pope Boniface: moreover it is in the. 2. tome of Counsels, and you have quoted in your margin the third. But to the matter. You have not one word in that epistle to prove that there was wont at any time The Epistle of Pope Zacharie falsified to be in every parish a Bishop. And you have falsely alleged the words of the epistle: for these words (lest they should wax vile through the multitude) are not there to be found. The words of the Epistle be there. For you must remember what we are commanded by the old canons to observe, that we aught not to ordain Bishops in villages, and small cities, lest the name of a Bishop should wax vile. What one word is there here of placing Bishops in every parish? Zacharie telleth Boniface, that it is according to the old canons that Bishops should not be placed in such small cities, but in more ample and large cities, because the contemptibleness of the place, doth oftentimes bring contempt to the person, and a Bishop aught to be esteemed and reverenced. If you had read the epistle, you should have perceived that this Boniface had lately converted to christianity interiorem Germaniam, and that he had ordained among them certain Bishops to govern them, whom he desired Pope Zacharie by his authority to confirm, to whom Pope Zacharie answering, willeth him to consider whether the places be so convenient, or the number of the people so great, ut Episcopos habere mereantur. Meminerimus enim (says he) quid in sacris canonibus. etc. as I have rehearsed them before ▪ And a little after he nameth the places, where he will have the bishops seats 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there is nothing less meant, than that there was in every parish a Bishop, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much as there was there before no Bishop in any parish: but this is all that may be gathered, that the seats of Bishops were by the old canons appointed to be in the best cities, and most famous places: which to be true you may soon perceive in those canons themselves, mentioned here by Zacharie: they are to be found. dist. 80. Chap. 5. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And they might with as good reason hinder the sun from shining in all places, and the rain 〈◊〉 falling upon all grounds, for fear they should not be set by, being common, as to bring in such a wicked decree, whereby under pretence of delivering the Bishop from contempt, they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordship over those, which had not that title of Bishop that they had, although they did the office of a Bishop better than they did. And what intolerable presumption is this, to change the institution of God, as though he (*) When, or where did God ordain this? which ordained not one only, but some number more or less of Bishops in every Church, did not sufficiently foresee, that the multitude and plenty of Bishops could breed no contempt of the office. And it may be as well ordained that the children of poor men should not call them that begar them, fathers and mothers, but only the children of the rich, and of the noble, lest that if every man that hath children, should be called a father, fathers should be set nothing by. Io. Whitgifte. It is a marvelous matter that you delight to run so fast upon a false string: I tell you once again, that you never read that Epistle, neither yet those canons that it speaketh of. If you had read them, you would never have affirmed (if there be any modesty left in you) that the multitude of Bishops is alleged there as a cause of contempt, no such thing being mentioned. The canons have a very good consideration, and be not wicked, but wise and godly. This superiority of Bishops is Gods own institution, and it hath a necessary use in the Church of God, as is showed before. It hath been, and may be abused: and it is, and may be well used. All these glorious words of yours, are but very words, and therefore as words, I will commit them to the wind. This one thing I cannot let pass that you say, God ordained not one only, but some But one Bishop in a city number more or less of Bishops in every Church. What scripture have you to prove that there should be more Bishops than one in one Church? What one example in all the primitive Church have you to warrant this your assertion? Nay you have the whole practice of the Church to the contrary, even from the beginning. james alone was Bishop of jerusalem, Timothy of Ephesus, Titus of Creta, Clemens of Rome. etc. and it hath been always counted as monstrous to have two Bishops of one city, as to have two heads of one body But such bold assertions without proof, are meet principles for such a ruinous and totering platform, as you dream of. Chap. 5. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And here let us observe by what degrees and stairs, Satan lifted the child of perdition unto that proud title of universal Bishop. First (*) In what place of scripture. where the Lord did ordain that there should be divers pastors, elders, or Bishops in every congregation, (a) Is not this sound proved. Satan wrought first, that there should be but one in every Church: this was no doubt the first step. Afterwards he pushed further, and stirred up divers not to content themselves to be Bishops of one Church, but to desire to be Bishops of a diocese, whereunto although it seemeth that there was resistance (in that it is said, that it was decreed often) yet in the end this wicked attempt prevailed, and this was another step: then were there archbishops of whole provinces, which was the third stayer unto the seat of Antichrist. Afterwards they were patriarchs of one of the four corners of the whole world, the whole Church being assigned to the jurisdiction of four, that is to say of the Roman, Constantinopolitan, Antiochene, and Alexandrine Bishops, and these four stairs being laid of Satan, there was but an easy stride for the Bishop of Rome into that chair of pestilence, wherein he now sitteth. Io. Whitgifte. All this is as coldly proved, as it is boldly affirmed, for here is neither scripture, doctor, story, Council, or any thing else, but ipse dixit. How prove you that the Lord ordained that there should be in every congregation divers pastors, elders, or Bishops? The place of scripture (if there be any) had been soon quoted. Or how prove you that Satan wrought first that there should be but one in every Church? Is it Satan's work Satan not the cause of one Bishop in one church. that one Church should have but one pastor? This is strange doctrine, and far from an Apostolical spirit: contrary to the practice of the Apostles, and of the Church even from the beginning. But seeing you have so barely set it down without any kind of proof, I will pass it over, by putting you to your proof. But yet tell me, did Satan stir up Timothy and Titus, who were Bishops of one whole diocese? Did he stir up the other ancient fathers and godly Bishops of whom I have spoken? Wither will this slanderous mouth reach? whom will this venomous tongue spare, if it speak so spitefully of such worthy Pastors? Your collection of resistance that hath been to such superiority (being grounded of the place, that you never saw nor read) is rash and unadvised. For if you had seen either that epistle, or those Canons, you would (or at the lest you might) have learned another lesson. Archbishops, patriarchs, etc. were allowed by the Council of Nice, the godlyest, and the most perfect Council (since the Apostles time) that ever was. And did Satan rule there also and prevail? O that Arius were alive to hear it. These steps whereof you make Satan the author, and whereby you say, the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chair of pestilence, etc. have been the best, and most convenient kind of government, that ever was in the Church since the Apostles time: approved and allowed by the best Counsels, and the next means to have kept Antichrist out of his seat, if in all places they had remained in their full force and authority. But this I may not pass over, that you in effect confess your kind of government by elders to have ceased before the Council of Nice, and also one Bishop to have been over one whole Diocese before that time, in that you say that the child of perdition was lifted up by these degrees, the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Council. Chap. 5. the. 14. Division. T. C. Page. 96. Sect. 2. Having now showed how this Lordly estate of the Bishop began, and upon what a rotten ground it is builded, I come to show how far the Bishops in our time are for their pomp and outward stateliness degenerated from the Bishops of elder times. Io. Whitgifte. A man would have thought that you being so great an enemy to those degrees, would not have thus concluded upon so small proof, and the same utterly untrue: using only for your ground the Epistle of Pope Zacharie, which maketh nothing for your purpose. Now let us see, how far the Bishops of our time are for their pomp. etc. degenerated from the Bishops of elder times. Chap. 5. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3 And here I call to remembrance, that which was spoken of the poor estate of basil, and Theodorete: and if M. Doctor will say (as he doth indeed in a certain place) that then was a time of persecution, and this is a time of peace, it is easily answered, that although basil were under persecution, yet Theodorete lived under good Emperors. But that shall appear better by the Canons which were rules given for the Bishops to frame themselves by. Io. Whitgifte. It is for lack of other examples, that you are constrained to repeat these: To the poorness of Theodorete I have answered: there may be as poor Bishops now, as there was then, and there might be as rich Bishops then, as there are now. It is not one or two examples that can prove the contrary. Chap. 5. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1 In the 4. Council of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops should have a little house 14. Canon▪ it calleth it hospitiolun▪ 15. Canon. near unto the Church, what is this compared with so many fair large houses, and with the princely Palace of a Bishop? And in the same Council it is decreed that he should have the furniture and stuff of his house after the common sort, and that his table and diet should be poor, and that he should get him estimation by faithfulness and good conversation. Io. Whitgifte. In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Council, clerk, how learned so ever they be in God's word, are willed to get their living by some occupation, or by husbandry, but I think you will not have them so to do now at this time. Wherefore you must consider the diversity of the time and state of the Church. If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in external benefits, if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deal with the ministers of the word: and if this state and condition be necessary for this time, and people, why should you envy it? riches and fair houses be no hindrances, but helps, if they be used accordingly: and commonly hypocrisy and pride, lieth hid under the name of poverty and simplicity. Chap. 5. the. 17. Division. T. C. Page. 97. Sect. 1 And in another Council, that the Bishops should (a) No such thing in that place. not give themselves to feasts, but be 5. Canon council. Tyronen . content with a little meat. Let these Bishops be compared with ours, whose chambers shine with guilt, whose walls are hanged with clotheses of Auris, whose cupbordes are laden with plate, whose tables and diets, are furnished with multitude and diversity of dishes, whose daily dinners are feasts, let them I say be compared together, and they shall be found so unlike, that if those old Bishops were alive, they would not know each other. For they would think that ours were Princes, and ours would think that they were some hedge Priests, not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowship. Io. Whitgifte. If you mean the first Tyronense Concilium, there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it, nor in the whole Council. The fifth Canon containeth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are, for it forbiddeth under the pain of excommunication, that any being a Clerk should leave of his calling, and become a lay man. If you mean the second Tyronense Concilium. I make you the like answer. Belike your collector hath deceived you, but what if it were so? This only might be gathered, that unless Bishops than had been wealthy, there should not have needed a decree against feasting. If our Bishops should make the like now, it would be thought they did it for sparing. And I think that, and such like Canons meet not only for Bishops, but for all states and degrees of men. Riches and costly furniture be no impediment to a godly man for doing Riches no impediment to godly men. Wherein our Bishops may be compared with the old Bishops. his duty. And in such external things the condition of the time, and state of the Country is to be observed. Let our Bishops be compared with them in truth of doctrine, in honesty of life, in diligent walking in their vocation, and in knowledge (I speak of the most in both ages) and I think the difference will not be so great, but that they may both know one another, and very well agree among themselves: this only excepted, that the doctrine of the Gospel is now much more purely professed by our Bishops, than it was at that time by them, for both the Counsels are in sundry points very corrupt. Chap. 5. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 2. In the same council of Carthage, it was decreed that no Bishop sitting in any place should suffer any Minister or Elder to stand. Now I will report me to themselves how this is kept, Can. 34. and to the poor ministers which have to do with them, and come before them. Io. Whitgifte. A poor quarrel: though this humility is to be required in all Bishops, yet is it to be used with discretion: for thus to deal with a proud and haughty stomach, were but to give nourishment to arrogancy and contempt. It is meet that every man have that honour and reverence given unto him, which his place, his office, and his person requireth. And as it is humility in him to remit any part of it: even so it is an intolerable contempt and pride for those that be inferiors, so to look for such equality, that in the mean time they refuse to do that, which civility, good manners, and duty requireth. But let all men consider those notes and tokens of your haughty stomachs, and persuade themselves, that it would not be long before you would challenge the same equality, with other states and degrees in like manner. Chap. 5. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 3 The Bishops in times past had no tail nor train of men after them, and thought it a slander to the Gospel to have a number of men before and behind them. And therefore is (*) He was reproved for using himself like a captain, being accompanied with a guard of soldiers. Paulus Samosatenus noted as one that brought Religion into hatred, and as one that seemed to Euseb. . 7. cap. 30. take delight rather to be a captain of two hundred, than a Bishop, bycaus he had got him a sort of serving men to weight on him, another example not unlike and likewise reprehended is in Ruffian of one (a) Gregory for George. Gregory a Bishop. Now in our days it is thought a commendation to Ruf. lib. 1. cap. 23. the Bishop, a credit to the Gospel, if a Bishop have. 30. 40. 60. or more waiting of him, some before, some behind, whereof three parts of them (set a part the carrying of a dish unto the table) have no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselves in two hours of the day, to the filling of the Church and common wealth also with all kind of disorders, and greater incommodities, than I mind to speak of, because it is not my purpose. Io. Whitgifte. In Eusebius it is said that Paulus Samosatenus used to walk publicly in the market places reading letters and boasting himself, being accompanied with a number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is accompanied with spearemen, and halbardes. The example of P. Samo▪ unjustly applied to our Bishops . of Soldiers some before him and some behind him, more like to a captain than a Bishop. If any of our Bishops walk in the streets to be seen, or stand in the market places, or other open and public assemblies reading of letters, accompanied with Soldiers and men of war, then may it be truly said of them, that is here truly spoken of Paulus Samosatenus. But if they being far from such vanity, keep that countenance and retinue of men, which their place, the manner of their Country, the honour of the Prince, the state of the Church requireth, then do you uncharitably and unjustly apply this example against them. But unless Paulus Samosatenus had been rich and wealthy, how could this pomp of his have been maintained? Wherefore this example is rather against you, than for you: neither doth it condemn wealth and riches in Bishops, but pride, vainglory, and lightness. For they accuse him of spoiling the Church, and thereby enriching himself. In the example of George, whom you all Gregory, mentioned in uffine, there is no word spoken of any serving men, or soldiers: only he is there reproved, because he got his Bishopric by violence, and thought that the office of judgement in Rufsin. lib. 1. cap. 23. civil causes was rather committed unto him, than the Priesthood. etc. If any Bishop offend in the like with us, it is the fault of the man, not of the office. By this example also it may appear, that Bishops in those days had riches and authority: For this abusing of their wealth and authority, doth argue that they had both, which they might have used rightly and well. Chap. 5. the. 20. Division. T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 4. And here I will note another cause which brought in this pomp, and princely estate of Bishops, wherein although I will say more in a word for the pompous estate, than M. doctor hath done in all his treatise: yet I will show that although it were more tolerable at the first, now it is by no means to be born with. * Theo. li. cap. 8. In the Ecclesiastical Story we read that the inscriptions of divers Epistles sent unto Bishops were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. * Li. eodem cap. 18. We read also of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 house of salutations, which Ambrose Bishop of milan had. As for the title of (most honourable Lords) it was not so great, nor so stately, as the name of a Lord or knight in our Country, for all those that know the manner of the speech of the Grecians do well understand, how they used to call every one of any mean countenance in the common wealth where he lived 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; that is Lord, so we see also the Evangelists turn Rabbi which signifieth master by the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lord, as likewise in France they call every one that is a Gentleman, or hath any honest place Monseur, and so they will say also, saving your honour. Now we know this word (Lord) in our Country is used otherwise, to note some great parsonage, either by reason of birth, or by reason of some high dignity in the common wealth, which he occupieth, and therefore those titles although they were somewhat excessive, yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as ours are. Io. Whitgifte. The wise man saith, Let not thy own mouth praise thee: but you for lack of Pro. 27. good neighbours, or else for too-too much self love, oftentimes forget this lesson, as in this place. Howsoever the Grecians used to call every one of any mean countenance in the common The title of most honourable Lord. wealth, where he lived 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Lord, yet did they not use to call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most honourable Lord, for that title was only given to such as were of great dignity and authority: as it is in the place of Theodorete (by you quoted) given to Bishops: and therefore you have made an objection, which you cannot answer. This word Lord, doth signify pre-eminence and superiority, and having this title (most honourable,) joined with it, it cannot but signify some great state and degree of authority. The same I answer to that, which followeth. And yet Rabbi was a name given primarijs hominibus, & honore aliquo praeditis: to the chief men, and those, which were Rabbi. endued with some honour: and in that the Evangelists do translate it Lord, it is manifest that this name, Lord, signified then a degree of superiority: but having (as I said) this title (most honourable) added unto it, as it is in that place of Theodorete, it cannot but signify some especial pre-eminence, and therefore equivalent with the titles now used. Master Caluine upon the. 20. of john. verse. 16, saith that (Rabboni) Caluine. which is there interpreted (master) is nomen non modò onorificum: not only an honouble name, but also, quod professionem continet obedientiae, such as containeth a profession of obedience. But do the titles of honour, and degree given unto Bishops so much trouble your haughty stomach? Surely you are not then of that spirit, that the old ancient Very honourable titles given to bishops. fathers were, who disdeyned not to call Bishops by as honourable titles as we do: look in Atha. his. 2. Apol you shall there found the Synod gathered at jerusalem, writing to the Priests of Alexand call Athanasius sundry times Dominum, not as by Atban. Apol a common title, but a title of dignity, quum vobis restituet pastorem vestrum & dominum comministrum nostrum ath nasium: When he shall restore unto you your Pastor and Lord our fellow minister Athanasius. In the same Apol. Bishops are called domini preciosissimi, most excellent or worthy Lords. And it is evident in the same book, that there was no other title given to the Emperor himself, for there he is only called (Lord) and so were other of his Nobles in like manner. So that in those days it was not grudged at, to give unto Bishops the same titles of honour, that was given to the Emperor & other Nobles. The name of (most reverend) is as much as the name of most honourable, and yet was that name also given unto Bishops in Athanasius time, as appeareth in the same book in sundry places. For Athanasius himself is called by his Priests and Deacons reverendissimus Episcopus. Eusebius Nicomed. writing to Paulinus Bishop of Tyrus useth this style, Domino meo Paulino, etc. To my Lord Paulinus to. 1. con. But what should I labour to prove the antiquity of such titles, which cannot be unknown to such as be learned? I had more need to declaim against the pride and haughtiness of such, as do disdain to use them: but I will not spend paper in words. Chap. 5. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 5. 6. And as touching Ambrose house, albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousness nor maginfycence of a house, as the Palaces and oh her magnifical buildings of our Bishops, yet the cause where upon this rose, doth more excuse Ambrose, who being taken from great wealth and government in the common wealth, giving over his office, did retain (*) It was the house belonging to the Bishop. his house and that which he had got. But our Bishops A heap of slanders. do maintain this pomp and excess, of the charges of the Church, with whose goods a great number of idle loitering serving men are maintained, which aught to be bestowed upon the Ministers, which want necessary finding for their families, and upon the poor and maintenance of the universities. As for these riotous expenses of the Church goods, when many other Ministers want, and of making great dinners, and interteyning great Lords and magistrates, and of the answer to them that say they do help the Church by this means, I will refer the reader to that, which Jerome writeth in an Epistle ad Nepotianum monachum, where this is handled more at large. Io. Whitgifte. Your answer for Ambrose his house hath no probability in it, for the words Ambrose house within the bounds of the Church. of Theodorete in that place, do plainly declare that it was near unto the Church, yea infra sept Ecclesiae: within the bonds or close of the Church, and therefore most like to be the house pertaining to the Bishopric, and not any part of Ambrose his former 〈◊〉. For if you remember, you said a little before, that it was decreed in the. 4. Council of Carthage. Can. 14. that a Bishop should have his house near unto the Church. But wise men can consider from whence such unlikely assertions without any show of proof do come. Bishops build not these great houses of the Church's goods, but receive them Bishops defended against the slanderous reply. as left unto them by such as were far from seeking a spoil: they uso them according to the laws of the land: and their number of men can in no respect be discommended, tending to the defence and strength of the realm, the honour of the Prince, and their own honest and góod education. Our Bishops therefore use the goods of the Church according to the first institution and foundation, and I doubt not but they use them to more profit both of the Church and common wealth, than they should be used, if your fancies might take place. Your complaint for ministers, for the poor. etc. may be otherwise satisfied than by Provision 〈◊〉 ministers. a spoil: For if benefices were rightly used, the Ministers of this Kealme are better provided for, than in any rountrey or age: yea there are more sufficient livings for them besides the bishoprics, than can be supplied with able ministers. The poor also are well provided for (God be thanked,) by sundry means, if laws ròuision for the poor. made for the same were duly executed, and Hospitals with such other provisions delivered from unreasonable Leases, and bestowed upon the poor according to their first ordinances. Wherefore this clamour of yours is nothing but the Where unto the Repliers clamour tendeth. The same axe is lifted against Universities, that hacketh at bishops lands. voice of an envious spirit proclaiming the spoil of the Church, to the decay of learning, and bringing in of barbarism, if it be not in time prevented. The universities are much beholding to you for your care over them: but what reasons have you used against the livings and houses of bishops, that may not also be used against their lands and Colleges: for in times past, when that Council of Carthage (before by you alleged) was held, there were nosuche Colleges endued with such possessions, as there are now. Neither are there (as I have heard) in Christendom the like Colleges, and the like livings for Study es, as are in this Realm of England. Wherefore if such examples and conditions of Countries, times, and people be sufficient to overthrow bishops houses and lands, I see not how Colleges can stand long after them, and therefore we pray you speak for yourself, we require not the help of so evil a Proctor. Would you seek to maintain learning with the spoil of the Church, and the diminishing of the reward of learning? An non vides, quàm pugnanti loqueris? By that Epistle of Jerome ad Nepotianum, it appeareth that the state of the Clergy was not then so poor, as you would seem to make it. Jerome reproveth the abuses The thing must not be condemned for the abuse. of his time, as covetousness, gluttony, gorgeous and costly apparel with such like which at all times are in like manner to be condemned. But doth he that reproveth the abuse, condemn the thing? It is a fault by covetous or unjust dealing to wax rich: but yet it is no fault to be rich. Pride in apparel is to be condemned: but yet every man may lawfully wear that apparel, that is meet for his degree. No man alloweth gluttony or immoderate seasting: neither doth any wise man condenme a plentiful table, and good house keeping. It is not good dealing to apply that which is spoken against the abuse of a thing, to the condemning and quite ever throw of the thing itself, as you d the words of Jerome in that Epistle. Chap. 5. the. 22. Division. T. C. Pag. 98. Lin. 2. By this which I have cited it appeareth, what was one cause of this excess and stately ompe of the bishops, namely that certain noble and rich men, being choose to the ministery, and living somewhat like unto the former estates, wherein they were before, others also assayed to be like unto them, as we see in that point the nature of man is to ready to follow, if they see any example before their eyes. But there is no reason because Ambrose and such like did so, therefore our Bishops should do it (*) This is before answered. of the Church's costs. Nor because Ambrose and such like did tarry in their trim houses, which they had built themselves of their own charge before they were Bishops, that therefore they should come out of their chambers or narrow houses into courts and palaces, builded of the Church's costs. Io. Whitgifte. Where have you showed any such thing by Ambrose his example? or how doth it appear that by such means the pomp of the Bishops (as you call it) was brought in? That which you speak of Ambrose house is most untrue: it was pertaining to the Bishop, and no part of Ambrose his proper possessions, as it is evident by this, that it was near unto the Church, even within the limits, of the Church, as I have said before. Chap. 5. the. 23. Division. T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 1 Another reason of this pomp and stateliness of the Bishops was, that which almost brought in all poison and popish corruption into the church, and that is a foolish emulation of the manners and fashions of the idolatrous nations. For as this was the craft of Satan to draw away the Israelites from the true service of God, by their fond desire they had to conform themselves to the fashions of the Gentiles, so to punish unthankful receiving of the Gospel, and to fulfil the Prophecies touching the man of sin; the Lord suffered those that professed Christ to corrupt they ways, by the same sleight of the Devil. Io. Whitgifte. If it be enough to say without any kind of proof, than you have said some thing: T. C. still offend h 〈◊〉 petitione princip . but if words without proofs be but light, then are these words so to be esteemed, & not otherwise. I know the Papists through foolish imitation of the Gentiles, have brought in sundry superstitions of the Gentiles. But I speak of the matter we have in hand, that is inequality of degrees; and authority among the ministers of the Church, and the names and offices of Archbishop, Bishop, Archdeacon, etc. which you neither have showed, nor can show to be brought into the Church, by any imitation of the Gentiles, and therefore you do still Petere principium. Chap. 5. the. 24. Division. T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 2. Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he might promote the idolatry, and Euseb. 8. 〈◊〉. 15. superstition where unto he was addicted, chose oh the choicest magistrates to be priests, and that they might be in great estimation gave each of them a train of men to follow them: (a) A 〈◊〉 collection. and now the Christians and Christian Emperors thinking that that would promote the Christian religion, that promoted superstition, and not remembering that it is often times abominable before God, which is esteemed in the eyes of men▪ endeavoured to make their Bishop's encounter and match with those idolatrous priests, and to cause that they should not be inferior to them in wealth and outward pomp. And therefore I conclude, that seeing the causes and fountains, from whence this pomp and stateliness of Bishops have come, are so corrupt and nought, the thing itself which hath risen of such causes can not be good. Io. Whitgifte. There is no such thing in that place of Eusebius quoted in your margin: for in that book and chapter of Eusebius, he only showeth that Enchanters and Sorcerers were greatly esteemed of Maximinus, and that he builded Churches of Idols in every City, and appointed idolatrous Priests in every place, also that he placed in every province one to be chief over the rest, & furnished him with soldiers and servants: but there is not one word, that any Christian Prince took any example of him to do the like in Christianity. It rather appeareth that Maximinus did in this point imitate the Christians, who had their metropolitans, and one chief Bishop in every province long before this time, as I have declared before. And I see no cause why you should say that Christians did follow the Gentiles rather in providing for the ministers of the Gospel sufficiently, than in building of Churches in every City, and placing ministers in them, for Maximinus did this aswell as he did the other. This I am well assured of, that there is no such signification in that place of Eusebius, that any Christian Prince should follow this example. And therefore your conclusion being collected and gathered of such false and untrue conjectures, must needs be like unto them. I do not speak to maintain any excessive or outrageous pomp, but I speak of the egrees in the Ecclesiastical state, and of the manners and conditions of the people, as they be now according to the laws and customs allowed in this Church of England. Chap. 5. the. 25. Division. T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 3 And thus will I make an end , leaving to the consideration and indifferent weighing of the indifferent reader, how true it is that I have before propounded, that our Archbishops, metropolitans, Archdeacon's, Bishops, have besides the names almost nothing common 〈◊〉 those, which have been in lder times, before the sun of the Gospel began to be marvelously darkened, by the stinking mists which the Devil sent forth out of the bottomless pit, to blind the eyes of men, that they should not see the shame and nakedness of that purpled whore, which in the person of the Clergy, long before she got into her seat, prepared herself by painting high writhe face, with the colours of these gorgeous titles, and with the show of magnifical and worldly pomp. For the Devil knew well enough, that if he should have set up one only Bishop in that seat of perdition, and left all the rest in that simplicity, wherein God had appointed them, that his elder son should neither have had any way to get into that, and when he had got it, yet being as it were an owl amongst a sort of birds, should have been quickly discovered. Io. Whitgifte. And I also leave it to the judgement of the learned and indifferent Reader, 〈◊〉 consider by that, which I have said before, how untrue all this is, that you here affirm, (I speak of these degrees and offices as they be now used in this Church of England) if there be any difference, it is because they have not so large and ample jurisdiction and authority now, as they had then. Satan worketh by sundry means, and spareth no fetches to bring to pass his The subtlety of Satan in counterfeit godliness must not prejudice that which is true. purpose. Under the pretence of zeal, he hath engendered sects and schisms: under the title of purity & perfection, he hath brought in heresy: under the cloak of simplicity, he hath spread abroad many kinds of idolatry and superstition: under the shadow of humility, he hath covered untolerable ambition, and marvelous arrogancy: and what soever he bringeth to pass, commonly he doth it under the colour of virtue, and of that which is good: and therefore I think that even under the names and titles of lawful degrees and calling, he hath established unlawful authority: but neither is true zeal, purity, perfection, simplicity, humility, nor yet lawful degrees and callings therefore to be condemned. Viti (as Cyprian sayeth) vicin sunt virtutibus: Vices Discretion is very necessary. be very nigh unto virtues: and the one laboureth to imitate the other, but we must not therefore the less esteem of virtue, but rather learn prudently to discern what is the difference betwixt the one and the other. If we have not learned this lesson, what state in the common wealth, what office, what degree of person, nay what kind of government shall we allow? it is the greatest folly in the world to condemn the thing itself, because of the abuse. Chap. 5. the. 26. Division. T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 3 But I have done, only this I admonish the reader that I do not allow of all those things, A proper caveat eat. which I before alleged in the comparison between our Archbishops and the Archbishops of old time, or our Bishops & theirs. Only my intent is to show that although there were corruptions, yet in respect of ours they be much more tolerable: and that it might appear how small cause there is, that they should allege their examples, to confirm the Archbishops and Bishops that now are. Io. Whitgifte. You do well to work surely, for now shall no man take any great advantage of your words, how be it, it had been courteously done to have let us understand what you allow of this you have written, and what you allow not. For in leaving the matter so rawly, you will make us suspect, that you have spoken you know not what. Other things concerning the offices and authority of our Clergy, of inequality of degrees amongst ministers, etc. dispersed in other places of the Answer. Chap. 6. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 75. Sect. ult. Concerning the offices of an high commissioner & justice of peace, how necessarily they be committed to some of the best & wisest of the Clergy, what vice by them is bridled, what inconvenience met with, what necessary discipline used, those know that be wise, & have experience in public affairs and government. There is no word of God to prove why these offices may not concur in one man. But it is the commission that troubleth these men, as for peace they are at defiance with it. T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 4. Concerning the offices of commissionership, and how unmeet it is that ministers of the word should exercise them, and how that the word of God doth not permit any such confusion of offices, there shall be by God's grace spoken of it afterward. Io. Whitgifte. And until that (afterward) be performed, will I also differre that, which is further to be said in this matter. Chap. 6. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 76. Sect. 1. 2. 3. & Pag. 77. Sect. 1 To be short, they say that all these offices be plainly in God's word forbidden, and they allege Math. 23. Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Pet. 5. The places of Matthew & Luke be answered before. Christ beateth Tract. 1. down ambition and pride, and desire of bearing rule, as he did before, when he said, be you not called Rabbi, and call no man father, be not called Doctors, he doth not condemn the names, but the ambition of the mind. In the. 1. Cor. 4. it is thus written, Let a man thus think of us, as of the ministers of Christ, etc. The ministers of the word in deed are not to be esteemed as Gods, but as the ministers of God. Some among the Corinthians gloried in their ministers, and attributed to much unto them. Here of came these factions, I hold of Paul, I of Apollo, etc. This teacheth your adherentes and disciples, not to attribute to much to you, & such as you are, or any other minister of God's word. It maketh nothing against the names or authorities either of Archbishop, Lordbishop, or any other that you have named, who be the ministers of Christ, and aught so to be esteemed. The place of S. Peter cap. 5. is this, Feed the flock of God, etc. not as though you were Lords over the flock, etc. Peter here condemneth haughtiness, contempt, and tyranny of pastors towards their flocks, he doth not take away lawful government. The Pastor hath rule and superiority over his flock, but it must not be tyrannical. These be but very slender proofs that the names and offices of archbishops, Lordbysh. etc. be plainly forbidden by the word of God. Surely you had thought that no man would have ever taken pains to examine your margin. T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. ult. To your answer also unto the places of S. Matthew & Luke the reply is made before. The place of the fourth of the first to the Corinthians is well alleged, for it teacheth a moderate estimation of the ministers, and a mean between the contempt & excessive estimation: neither can there be any readier way to breed that disorder, which was amongst the Corinthians, as to say I hold of such a one, and I of such a one, & I of such another, than to set up certain ministers in so high titles, & great show of worldly honour: for so cometh it to pass that the people will say, I will believe my Lord, and my Lord Archbishop, what soever our person say, for they be wise men and learned, as we ee it came to pass amongst the Corinthians. For the false Apostles because they had a show & outward pomp of speech, they carried away the people. For although S. Paul saith that some said I hold of Paul, I hold of Apollo, I of Cephas, yet as it appeareth in his fourth chapter, they held one of this brave eloquent teacher, and another of that. For he translated these speeches unto him & his fellows by a figure. All that rule is tyrannical which is not lawful, and is more than it aught to be. And therefore the place of S. Peter is fitly alleged, whereof also I have spoken some thing before. Io. Whitgifte. The Corinthians did not burst out into these factions & parts taking, in respect of any title or office committed to any of their preachers: but it was a partial affection that they had towards their teachers in preferring them (for their supposed virtue & learning) before other of whom they had not conceived so good an opinion. A more lively example whereof can not be, than the dissension that is at this day, wherein some of your fautors forgetting all modesty, do so greatly 〈◊〉 you, and your companions, that nothing may be herded, that is spoken to the contrary: nay in comparison, all other men be flatterers, worldlings, unlearned, dolts, & asses. So do some sort of men extol you, and contemn other: so did the Corinthians extol & magniffe their false Prophets, & deprave the true preachers. Wherefore to take away this partial affection & judgement, the Apostle sayeth, Sic nos aestimet homo, etc. Let a man so esteem 1. Cor. 4. of us, as of the ministers of Christ, etc. You will not (I am sure) acknowledge that at this time among the Corinthians there was any such difference of titles, or degrees of superiority. Wherefore you cannot (speaking as you think) say that the Apostle in this place means any such matter. But well you wot that these affections (which I have spoken of) were rife among them, and therefore it is most certain that the Apostle laboureth for the suppression of them. So that the interpretation, that I have given of this place in mine Answer, is true, neither have you refelled it. The rule that a Bishop hath over other ministers in his diocese is lawful: neither is it such tyrannical rule as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (used by S. Peter, and spoken of before) doth signify, that is to rule with oppression: and therefore the place is unaptly alleged. Chap. 6. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 77. Sect. 1 I am of Hemingius opinion in this point, that I think this your assertion smelleth of plain Anabaptisme. T. C Pag. 99 Sect. 1 You are you say of Hemingius mind, & think that this opinion smelleth of Anabaptisme. I have showed how you have depraved & corrupted Hemingius, and desire you to show some better reason of your opinion. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will not suftice us. Io. Whitgifte. And I have showed how untruly you have reported of me. Hemingius alloweth superiority, & degrees of dignity among the ministers: he condemneth your confused equality, & calleth it anabaptistical. Moreover if you well mark the beginnings & proceedings of the Anabaptistes, you shall perceive that they first began with the ministery, in the self same manner and form that you now do. Chap. 6. the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 77. Sect 1. And surely if you had once made an equality (such as you fancy) Anabaptisme feared. among the Clergy, it would not be long or you attempted the same among the laity. Let them take heed: Tunc tua res agitur, etc. T. C. Pag. 99 Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say that if we had once obtained equality amongst the Clergy, we would attempt it in the laity. Deut. 18. In what star do you see that M. Doctor? Moses sayeth, that if a man speak of a thing to come, and it come not to pass as he hath spoken, that that man is a false Prophet, i your prophecy come not to pass, you know your judgement already out of Moses. The Pharisees when our saviour Christ inveighed against their ambiti , accused him that he was no friend to Cesar, and went about to discredit him with the civil magistrate, you shall apply it yourself, you will needs make the Archbishop, etc. neighbours unto the civil magistrates, and yet they almost devil as far a sunder as Rome and jerusalem, and as Zion and S. Peter's Church there, so that the house of the Archbishop may be burnt stick and stone, when not so much as the smoke shall approach the house of the civil magistrate. Io. Whitgifte. In the star that is in your forehead, in the accustomed practices of the Anabaptists, Equality of ministers will pull on the equality of other estates. Pag. 144. Sect. 1 in the places of scripture alleged by the Admonition for the equality of all ministers, which very same the Anabaptists do also use against the civil magistrate. To be short, I see it in your own words, where you say that the government of the common wealth must be framed according to the government of the church, & what kind of government you would have in the Church, who knoweth not? I do not take upon me to prophecy, but ex antecedentibus colligo consequentia, I gather that we shall have storms, by the black clouds. You are not Christ, neither is your cause like unto his, and therefore you make a very unequal comparison. To whom the name of Pharisie doth most aptly agree, is showed in my Answer to the Admonition. The self same reasons overthrow the civil magistrate, that overthroweth the Ecclesiastical. And therefore the fire kindled against the one, must needs be very dangerous for the other. Chap. 6. the. 5. Division. Admonition. In stead of the Seniors in (r) Rom. 12. 8. every Church the Pope hath brought in, and yet we maintain the Lordship of one man over sundry Churches, yea over many shires. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I have proved before in my answer to your. 13. & 14. reason, that this lordship of one man (as you term it) but in deed lawful jurisdiction over sundry churches, was not the invention of any Pope, but of great antiquity in the church of Christ, allowed by that famous Council of Nice, & practised since of most godly and learned fathers. In the. 9 Canon. Concil. Antioch it is thus written: Per singulas regiones Episcopos convenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius provinciae gerere, propter quod ad Metropolim omnes undique qui negotia videntur habere, concurrant, undè placuit & bonore praecellere, & nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere, secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam, nisi ea tantùm, quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent, etc. It behoveth the Bishops in every country to know their Metropolitan Bishop to have care over the whole province, and therefore all such as have any business must come to their Metropolitan City: wherefore it pleaseth this Council, that he also excel in honour, and that the other Bishops do nothing without him, according to the ancient rule prescribed by our forefathers, but those things only which pertain to his own diocese, etc. This Council was about the year of our Lord 345. T. C. Pag. 99 Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page, for the authority of the Archbishop, is alleged the. 9 Canon of the council of Antioch, which I have before alleged to prove how far different the authority of the Metropolitan in those times, was from that which is now. For there the Council showeth that every Bishop in his diocese hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuit thereof, & therefore the meaning of the Council to be, that if there be any affairs that touch the whole Church in any land, that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitan privy, as also the Metropolitan might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsel of that, which he attempted, which M. Doctor doth clean leave out. And if this authority which the Council giveth to the Metropolitan being nothing so excessive, as the authority of our metropolitans now, had not been over much, or had been justifiable, what needed men father this Canon (which was ordained in this Council) of the Apostles, for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles, to give credit unto this Canon, doth carry with it a note of evil and of shame, which they would have covered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authority. Io. Whitgifte. There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth, all the shifts that you have to avoid it, I have answered before. There is as great authority given to the Metropolitan in that Canon, as now he either useth or requireth. For every Bishop observing the laws of the realm, and of the Church, hath the ordering of all matters within his diocese: and the Metropolitan in this Church may attempt no new thing, or any matter of great importance, not already by law established, though he have the consent of all the Bishops, so far is he from having authority to do any such thing without their consent. That Canon of the Apostles is repeated & confirmed in this Council, as diverse Canons of the Council of Nice are in like manner repeated and confirmed by diverse Counsels following. This is so far from discrediting that Canon with wise men, that it rather addeth great authority unto it: but you keep your old wont, in discrediting the authority, which you cannot answer. Chap. 6. the. 6. Division. Admonition. Now then, if you will restore the Church to his ancient officers, this you must do. In stead of an Archbishop, or Lord bishop, you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 . 7. Colos. 1. 1. equality of ministers. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 123. I have proved before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most ancient, and also most necessary in the Church of Christ: & that this equality of ministers, which you require, is both flatly against the scriptures, & all ancient authority of counsels and learned men, & the example of all Churches, even from Christ's time, as more plainly appeareth by these words of M. Bucer in his book De egno Christi. jam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum observatione, ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus, visum ucer. & hoc esse spiritui sancto, ut inter Presbyteros, quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa, unus Ecclesiarum, & totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem: eaque cura & solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs. Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum. etc. Now we see by the perpetual observation of the Churches, even from the Apostles themselves, that it hath pleased the holy ghost, that amongst the ministers to whom the government of the Church especially is committed, one should have the chief care both of the Churches, and of the whole ministery, and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence, for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly given to such chief governors of Churches, etc. Furthermore I have declared that it engendereth schisms, factions, & contentions in the Church, and bringeth in a mere confusion, and is a branch of Anabaptisme. T. C. Pag. 99 Sect. 6. 7. and in the 〈◊〉 twenty & three page, to that which M. Bucer saith, that in the Churches there hath been one, which hath been 〈◊〉 over the rest of the Ministers, if he mean one chief in every particular Church, 〈◊〉 one chief over the Ministers of diverse Churches meeting at one Synod, and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉, and for such respects as I have before showed, than I am of that mind which he is: and if he mean any other chief, or after any other sort, I deny that any such chief was from the Apostles times, or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost, whereof I have before showed the 〈◊〉. And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allow, that the name of a Bishop, which the holy Ghost expressly giveth to all the Ministers of the word indifferently, was appropriated to certain chief governors of the Church, I have before showed by diverse reasons, how that was not done without great presumption and manifest danger, and in the end great hurt to the Church. Io. Whitgifte. M. Bucers' words are plain, there is no cause why you should make such (I s) but only that you may be thought able to say some thing, how contrary to truth and reason soever it be. Your own bore denial of M. Bucers' judgement, will weigh little with any wise or learned man, considering what difference there is betwixt your knowledge and his: the trial that hath been of him, and the trial that hath been of you: his experience, and yours. But what should I compare together things so unlike? That M. Bucer is directly against you in this assertion of yours, it doth not appear only in these words of his, but in others also, which he speaketh to the like effect, as in the. 4. to the Eph. as I have before declared. And again upon the same chapter Bucer. n. 4. Ephe. he says, The third part of discipline is obedience, which is first to be rendered of all to the Bishop and Minister, then of every clerk, to those that be in degree above him, & to such as may help him to the well executing of his ministery. Last of all of Bishops to synods, and to their Metropolitan Bishops, and to all other, to whom a more ample charge of the churches is committed. And in the same commentaries after that he hath proved by sundry examples & apt reasons, that this superiority among Ecclesiastical people is convenient and profitable, and showed that these degrees in the Church, Bishop, Archbishop, Metropolitan, Primate, patriarch, be not only most ancient, but also necessary, he concludeth on this sort. Because it is necessary that every one of the clergy should Idem. have their rulers and governors, the authority, power, vigilancy, and severity of Bishops, Archdeacon's, and all other, by what name soever they be called (to whom any portion of keeping and governin the clergy is committed) should or aught to be restored, lest there be any in this order out of rule, and without government. How think you now of M. Bucers' judgement? Is it not directly against you? be not his words plain? Chap. 6. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 124. Sect. 1 Your places quoted in the margin to prove that there aught to Scriptures wrested to prove equality of Ministers. be an equality of Ministers, sound nothing that way. 2. Cor. 10. vers. 7. these be the words of the Apostle. Look you on things after the appearance? If any trust in him self that he is Christ's, let him consider this again of himself, that as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's. How conclude you of these words your equality? I promise you it passeth my cunning to wring out of them any such sense: rather the contrary may be gathered out of the words following, which be these: For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord etc. I should have no shame. M. Caluine expounding Caluine. these words saith on this sort, It was for modesty that he joined himself to their number, whom he did far excel: and yet he would not be so modest, but that he would keep his authority safe: therefore he addeth that he spoke less than of right he might have done. For he was not of the common sort of ministers, but one of the chief among the Apostles▪ and Degrees of honour in the ministery. therefore he says, if I boast more, I need not be ashamed, for I have good cause. And a little after: Quamuis enim common sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium, sunt tamen bonoris gradus: Although the self-same office be common to all the Ministers of the word, yet there is degrees of honour. Thus you see Caluine far otherwise to gather of this place than you do. T. C. Pag. 100 Sect. 1 And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose men's authority to the authority of the holy ghost, & to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture, M. Caluine doth openly mislike of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certain, which the holy ghost maketh common to more. And where as of M. calvin's words, which saith that there be degrees of honour in the ministery, Here he defendeth not the admonition, but shifteth it or by avilling. M. Doctor would gather an Archbishop, if he had understanded that an Apostle is above an evangelist, an evangelist above a Pastor, a Pastor above a Doctor, and he above an Elder that ruleth only, he needed never have go to the popish Hierarchy to seek his diversiti s of degrees▪ which he might have found in S. Paul. And whereas upon M. calvin's words, which saith that Paul was one of the chief amongst the Apostles, he would seem to conclude an Archbishop amongst the bishops, he should have remembered that S. Paul's chiefty amongst the Apostles, consisted not in having any authority or dominion over the rest, but in labouring and suffering more than the rest, and in gifts more excellent than the rest. Io. Whitgifte. I do not oppose men's authority to the authority of the holy ghost, & to the reasons, which are grounded out of the scripture, but I oppose them to your authority, and to your reasons, who spurn against that order, which the holy ghost hath placed in the Church, & most shamefully abuse the scripture to maintain your errors: an example whereof is this present text alleged by the Admonition. which you pass over in silence, condemning thereby their lewdness in abusing the same. It is you and yours that abuse the name and authority of the holy ghost: it is you that wring and wrest the Scriptures untolerably: it is you that falsify authorities of learned men, & corruptly allege them: It is you I say, that deprave and discredit such writers as have been, and be notable instruments in the church of Christ, and all this you do to maintain your erroneous opinions and false doctrine, wherewith you endeavour to subvert this church of England. M. calvin's words be plain, and they directly overthrow your equality of ministers, and show the fondness of the Admonition in alleging that place of scripture to prove any such equality. M. calvin's words be these: Qu muis common sit omnibu verbi ministris, idemque officium, sunt tamen bonoris gradus: Although the self same office be common to all the ministers of the word, yet there are degrees of honour. Which words disprove the equality of ministers by the admonition affirmed, & confirmed with this portion of scripture by M. Caluine here interpreted, that is. 2. Cor. 10. verse. 7. If there were degrees of honour in the Apostles time among those which had idem 〈◊〉, the self same office, as M. Caluine affirmeth, why should there not be so now T. C. contra ie to himself likewise? But will you see how unlike you are unto yourself, even in these few lines? first you say that M. calvin's meaning is that an Apostle is above an evangelist, an Evangelist is above a Pastor. etc. and by and by after you confess that there was chiefty even among the Apostles, but it consisted in labouring and suffering more than the rest, and in gifts more excellent than the rest. To omit these contrarieties of yours, into the which the plainness of Master Calvin s words hath driven you: this inequality that you confess to have been in these offices (which notwithstanding you speak of your own head without any warrant of God's word) argueth that there may be superiority among the ministers of the Church. And the degrees of honour that you acknowledge to have been among the Apostles, quite cast th' down your confused quality. As for your salving the matter in saying, that this chiefty among the Apostles consisted not in having any superiority above the rest, but in labouring. etc. it may please unskilful people, but it will not satisfy men of discretion and wisdom. For it is to be thought that every one of the Apostles laboured in their calling to the uttermost of their powers, that they suffered whatsoever God laid upon them, that they had all gifts most abundantly necessary for their functions. Wherefore in all these things there was summa aequalitas, and no m n sought such pre-eminence, or received it being offered unto him, but according to their own doctrine every one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉. Wherefore it could not be for this respect, but it was for order & pollici to a oyde confusion. I have told you before why you labour so much to have honour and dignity distributed according to the excellency of gifts, for than you persuade yourself, that the chiefty would light on your own neck, but you may peradventure be deceived. Chap. 6. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 123. towards the end. And now I add, that you desire this equality, not because you Why the Admonitors desire equality. would not rule (for it is manifest that you seek it most ambitiously in your manner) but because you contemn and disdain to be ruled, and to be in subjection. In deed your meaning is (as I said before) to rule and not to be ruled, to do what you list in your several cures, without controlment of Prince, Bishop, or any other. And therefore pretending equality, most disorderly you seek dominion. I speak that I know by experience in some of you. T. C. Pag. 100 Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he says that we desire to pull the rule from others, that the rule might be in our hands, and we might do what we list, and that we seek to withdraw ourselves from controlment of Prince and Bishop; and all: first he may learn, if he will, that we desire no oh r authority, than that which is to the edifying of the Church, and which is grounded of the woe e of God: which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition, than he aught to abide not ely the controlment of the other Ministers, yea of the brethren, but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantity of the fault. And seeing you charge the brethren so sore, you must be put in remembrance, that this unreasonable authority over the rest of the ministers and clergy, (*) An untruth ▪ for the lawful authority oh Bishops and archbishops was long be over. came to the Bishops and archbishops, when as the Pope did exempt his havelings from the obedience, subiec on, and jurisdiction of Princes. Now therefore that we be ready to give that subjection unto the prince, and offer ourselves to the prince's correction in things wherein we shall do amiss, do you think it an unreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishop's yoke, which the Pope hath laid upon our necks? Io. Whitgifte. Your answer maketh the matter more suspicious: for this authority you speak of Excessive authority is sought under pretence of equality, which you say▪ is to the edifying of the Church, and grounded of the word of God, is as it pleaseth you to interpret it. For what so ever you fancy, and whatsoever authority you usurp, shall have the same pretence: and if the Prince seek to restrain you, or to break your will, you and your Seniors will excommunicate her if she be of your parish. Furio theremore the greatest pre-eminence she can have, is to be one of your signiory, and then must M. Pastor be the chief, and so in authority above the Prince and consequently a Pope, but of this more in due place shall be spoken. This authority, which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise, came first from 〈◊〉 authority of Bishops & Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉. the Apostolical Church, then from the example of the primitive Church for the space of five hundred years after the Apostles time. Thirdly, from the Counsels of nice, Antioch, Constantinople, and all the best and purest Counsels that ever were. And last of all from the authority of the Prince, and by the consent of this whole Church and Realm of England, & therefore not from the Pope, who hath rather diminished it (by taking all to himself) than in any respect increased it. Wherefore you also in exempting yourself, from the authority and jurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop, resist God in his Ministers, the Prince in her officers, and the laws of the Church & Realm in their executors. And as for your protested obedience, it is so enwrapped with conditions and provisoes (as in other places of your book more plainly appeareth) that when it should come to the trial (if your platform were builded) it would prove as little, as for the Popish Bishops was, in their greatest pride. Chap. 6. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers. 1. is this, Paul an Apostle of jesus Christ by the will of God, & Timotheus our brother. Surely your mind was not of equality (I think) when you quoted these places to prove it. But it is your usual manner without all discretion & judgement to dally & play with the scriptures. For what sequel is there in this reason, Paul calleth Timothy brother, Ergo in all respects there must be equality? As though there were not distinction of degrees even among brethren. Io. Whitgifte. Magis mutus, 〈◊〉 piscis, and by his silence the oversight confessed. Chap. 6. the. 10. Division. Admonition. And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. PEA t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops, Archdeacon's, Lord bishops, chancellors, etc. are drawn out of the Pope's shop, together with their offices: So the government which they use by the life of the Pope, which is the Canon law, is Antichristian and devilish, and contrary to the scriptures. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 208. Sect. 1 Both of the names, and also of the offices of archbishops, Archdeacon's, Scriptures wrested. Lord Bishops. etc. I have spoken before sufficiently, and fully answered those places quoted in this margin, saving the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues. Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places have been found out since, and thought meet now to be alleged, but how discreetly, by examination it will appear. The words of the Apostle to the Galat. 2. verse. 6. be these. And of them which seemed to be great I was not taught (what they were in time passed, it maketh no matter to me, God accepteth no man's person) nevertheless they that are the chief, did communicate nothing with me. The Apostle in these words doth declare, that he received not the Gospel, which he preached, of men, not not of the Apostles, but of jesus Christ, and that the Gospel preached by him ought to be no less credited, than the Gospel preached by them. So that in those words he declareth that the truth of the doctrine doth not depend of any man's person. He speaketh nothing against superiority quoad ordinem, concerning order, but doth rather acknowledge it, for he saith, they that are the chief, etc. But it is true that Master Caluine noteth on this place. Hic non est certamen ambitionis, quia nequaquam de personis agitur. The contention is not for ambition, for it is not understanded of the people. Now I pray you consider this argument, Paul received the Gospel that he preached, not of the Apostles, but of Christ: or the Gospel preached by Paul, is equivalent with the Gospel preached by other of the Apostles: therefore the names of archbishops, Archdeacon's, etc. are drawn out of the Pope's shop together with their offices, or this. Paul saith that they that were the chief did communicate nothing with him: Ergo, the names and offices of archbishops be taken out of the Pope's shop. T. C. Page 100 Sect. 4. And in the. 207. page unto the midst of the. 214. page this matter is again handled, where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galatians the second; (*) This is an untruth, for it is only proved that the place is not against the Archbishop. etc to prove an Archbishop and that by a (a) Here you rashly accuse the translation of the Bible printed at Geneva, and others: false translation, for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is they that seemed, or appeared, he hath translated they that are the chief, and although the place of the Galatians may be thought of some not so pregnant, nor so full against the Archbishop, yet all must needs confess, that it maketh more against him, than for him. For Saint Paul's purpose is to prove there, that he was not inferior to any of the Apostles, and bringeth one argument thereof, that he had not his Gospel from them, but from Christ immediately, and therefore if the Apostles that were esteemed most of, and supposed by the Galatians and others to be the chief, had no superiority over S. Paul, but were equal with him, it followeth that there was none that had rule over the rest. And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler over the rest, there seemeth to be no need that one Bishop should rule over the rest. Io. Whitgifte. I have set down the words of the Apostle as they be translated in the English Bible printed at Geneva, not altering one title, and therefore if there be any falsehood in the translation, it is in that Bible not in me. How truly you have translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated. Beza. saying it signifieth, they that seemed or appeared, let the Reader judge after he hath considered these words of M. Beza upon the same word ad Galat. 2. verse. 2. with those that are of reputation, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (that is) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (those which are well esteemed of) the contrary whereof are, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (they which are without renown or estimation) the common translation hath, which seemed to be some thing, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is contrary to all our books, & unto Jerome's interpretation also. For thus he writeth, which thing Erasmus also doth well note. I did very carefully search (says he) what that should be that he said (qui videbantur) they which seemed: but he hath taken away all doubt, in that he addeth, Qui videbantur esse colunmae, they which were accounted to be pillars. hitherto Hierom: whereby he doth evidently declare, that he had not read in this place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: But in such sort notwithstanding, that he seemeth not to have known 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to have been called of the Grecians absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, those, who are of great estimation with all men. And this ignorance of the Greek tongue, as I think, was the cause that the old interpreter (being more bolder than Hierom) did add, aliquid esse. And Erasmus in his annotations Erasmus. upon the same place agreeth with M. Beza herein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolute dicuntur Graecis, qui magnae sunt aut oritatis: they which are of great authority, are of the Grecians absolutely called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Budeus also says, that the Apostle in this place taketh this word Bude s. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And both M. Beza himself and Erasmus translate it, as it is in the Geneva Bible. Wherefore here your cunning faileth you, and you had not well considered the matter before you entered this accusation of falsifying. The true sense and meaning of this place to the Galat. I have set down in my Answer: and it is according to the interpretation of the best writers, justified by the words of M. Caluine there alleged, and not confuted by you. Wherefore the conclusion remains as it did. That there was superiority among the Apostles, ordinis & politiae causa, I have showed before. This place to the Galatians is not brought in by me to prove the authority of the Archbishop (although it might well be alleged to prove degrees of honour in the ministery) but it is quoted in the Admonition fond and foolishely, to prove that the names of Archbishops, Archdeacon's, Lordbishops. etc. are drawn out of the Pope's shop together with their offices. And of this dallying with the Scriptures, you speak not one word, for you care not how they be profaned, so it be for the maintenance of your own cause. Chap. 6. the. 11. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 208. Sect. ult. The words in the. 5. to the Hebrues verse. 4. be these. And no man taketh this honour to himself, but he that is called of God as Aaron was. The Apostle here showeth that Christ was a lawful Priest, because he was thereunto called by God as Aaron was. What is this to Archbishops. & c? This place teacheth that no man aught to intrude himself Weak argument s. to any function, except he be there unto called by God. But what maketh this against any lawful function or authority? or what conclusion call you this? Christ did not take unto him that office, whereunto he was not called, or no man must take upon him that, whereunto he is not called: Ergo Archbishops. etc. and their offices came out of the Pope's shop. you should first prove that which aught to be your Minor. T. C. Pag. 100 Sect. 4. But that I run not back to that I have handled before, I will not here so much rge the place, A cleanly shift. as I will not do also that of the Hebrues which followeth, & yet the argument is stronger than that M. Doctor could answer. For if the writer to the Hebrues do prove our Saviour Christ's vocation to be just and lawful, (*) Untrue. because his calling was contained in the scriptures, as appeareth in the 5. and. 6. verse, than it followeth, that the calling of the Archbishop, which is not comprehended there, is neither just nor lawful. For that no man (saith the Apostle) taketh the honour unto himself, but he that is called of God. etc. But I say, having before sufficiently spoken of the reasons, which overthrow the Archbishop, I will let pass these and other places, answering only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them. Io. Whitgifte. This is a cleanly & handsome shift to avoid the defence of these gross & unapt allegations The 〈◊〉 proveth not that which is devyed. of scriptures. I have answered the argument grounded upon the. 5. to the hebrews, and required the proof of the minor, which is this, that Archbishops, Lordbishops. etc. intrude themselves into their offices without any lawful calling, which both they and you have omitted: and therefore I have answered sufficiently, until you have proved that which is by me denied. It is not true, that the Apostle to the Hebrues proveth the vocation of our saviour jesus Christ to be just and lawful, because his calling was contained in the scriptures: he only showeth by evident testimonies of the Scriptures, that Christ did not intrude himself, but was called of God. And if you will have no man to execute any function in the Church, but him that hath such special and personal testimonies of the scriptures to show for himself, I see not how any man can justify his calling. It is therefore sufficient if his calling be generally contained in the Scripture, as all lawful and ordinary functions are, even the offices of Archebishops, and Lordebishops, etc. Chap. 6. the. 12. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 209. Sect. 1. 2. 3. & Pag. 210. Sect. 1 In the. 16. of Luke verse. 25. it is thus written: But Abraham said, Scriptures wrested. son remember that thou in thy life time rceivedst thy pleasures, & likewise Lazarus pains: now therefore is he comforted, and thou art tormented. The rich glutton in his life received pleasure, and therefore was after in hell tormented: Lazarus received pains, and after was comforted: Therefore Archbishops. etc. and their offices come out of the Pope's shop. These fellows neither care for mayor, minor, nor conclusion, so they say something, and vainly paint their margin, with shamefully abusing the scriptures. The words of Ezech. Chap. 34. verse. 4. be these. The weak have you not strengthened, the sick have you not healed, neither have you bond up the broken, etc. In the which place the Prophet speaketh against such Kings, Magistrates, and rulers, as despise the people of Abuse of offices condemned, not the offi es. God, & use themselves cruelly towards them. This doth aswell condemn Kings & Magistrates, as it doth Archbishops: although in deed it condemneth no office or superiority, but the abuse of the same, that is, the man abusing the office, and not the office itself. In the. 2. Cor. 1. verse. 24. the Apostle speaketh thus unto them: Not that we have dominion over your faith, but we are helpers of your joy, for by faith you stand. S. Paul here saith, that he hath no authority to altar true religion, or to rule over their consciences, but how proveth this, that Archbishops. etc. came out of the Pope's shop? Paul saith that he had no power over the consciences of the Corinthians, therefore Archbishops. etc and their offices were drawn out of the Pope's shop. If you had been more studious when you were a Sophister (if ever you were any) you would have learned better to frame an argument, and have had better judgement in the sequel of the same. If you had not troubled your margin with these quotations, you had less uttered your folly. So much of the Canon law as is contrary to the Scriptures, Canon laws not altog there condemned. is Antichristian and devilish: But there be divers Canons in it very good and profitable, which may well be retained. Good laws may be borrowed even of Turks, and heat henishe Idolaters: and why not of Papists also? I have told you before, that the thing itself is to be considered, not the inventor: if it be good and profitable, it may be used whosoever did invent it. Io. Whitgifte. Not one word answered to all this. Chap. 6. the. 13. Division. Admonition. And as safely may we by the warrant of God's word subscribe to allow the dominion of the pope, universally to reign over the Church of God, as of an archbishop over a whole province, or a Lord bishop over a Diocese, which containeth many shires and parishes. For the dominion that they exercise, the archbishop above them, and they above the rest of their brethren, is unlawful, and expressly forbidden by the word of God. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 210. Sect. 2. In that you say, that you may as safely by the warrant of God's word subscribe to allow the dominion of the Pope universally to reign over the Church of God, as of an Archbishop over an whole Province. etc. You express but your heat, I suppose you think not so: can the Pope aswell govern the whole Church, as the Archbishop one Province, and a Lord bishop one Diocese? Is one king aswell able to govern the whole world, as he may be to govern one kingdom? Or because you can rule one parish well, can you therefore in like manner well govern twenty parishes? Surely an Archbishop may well govern one Province, An archbishop may govern one promise vince, but the Pope not all the world. but the Pope can never well govern the whole Church. And yet an Archbishop hath not the charge of government over the whole Province generally, but only in cases exempted, and therefore may do it more easily. T. C. Pag. 100 Sect. 4. He saith therefore afterward that although one man be not able to be Bishop over all the Church, yet he may be Bishop over a whole Diocese, or of a province. Now if I would say the one is as impossible as the other, and for proof thereof allege that which the philosophers say, that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite, so that of things which are infinite, one thing can not be more infinite than another, so there are no degrees in impossibility, that of things which are impossible, one thing should be more impossible than another. If I should thus reason, I think I should put you to some pain. But I will not draw the reader to such thorny and subtle questions, it is enough for us that the one and the other be impossible, although one should be more impossible than the other. And that it is impossible for one man to be Bishop over a whole province, or over a whole Diocese, I leave it to be considered of that which is before said in the description of the office of a Bishop, pastor, or minister, where I speak of the necessity of the residence of the Bishop in his Church. Io. Whitgifte. In so saying I say but as other learned men have said, and especially M. Caluine, in the place afterward alleged in my answer: and as the practice of the Church hath been in the best state, and under the best Bishops, as it may appear by that which hath been hitherto spoken. Your Philosophical argument is soon answered without any great pain. For to govern one Province in that manner and form that is required of an Archbishop, is neither infinite, nor impossible. But it is great lack of judgement to think that because one man can not well govern the whole world, therefore he can not well govern a province or diocese. I have showed the practice of the Church to be contrary in the Apostles time, and since their time. Chap. 6. the. 14. Division. T. C. Page. 101. Sect. 1 As a Prince may rule a whole Realm, such as France or England, (*) This is absurdissimum, a M. Caluine 〈◊〉 Instit. cap. 8. sect. 92. so may he rule the whole world by officers and Magistrates appointed underneath him. And there have been divers Princes, which have had as many lands under their power, as the Pope hath had Churches, and although it be somewhat inconvenient, yet I know not why they might not so have, coming lawfully by them. Now I would gladly hear, whether you would say the same of a Bishop, and if you dare not, then why do you bring the similitude of the government of a prince over a land, to prove that a Archbishop may be over an whole province? M. Doctor dare boldly say, that there may be one Bishop over a whole province, but he dare not say that there may be a bishop over the whole Church. But what better warrant for the one than for the other? Again (a) If the sky fall. etc. if the whole Church be in one province, or in one realm, which hath been, and is (b) Yes surely, as the state is now. not impossible to be again, if there may be now one bishop over a realm or province: then there may be one bishop over all the Church, so that in traveling with an Archbishop, he hath brought forth a Pope. Io. Whitgifte. The self same reason you had before, and I answer it now as I did then. The Supra, cap. 3. diuis. 31. 32. 33. causes by me there alleged be sufficient to prove the difference betwixt the government of a Prince, and the government of a Bishop. And yet no man will deny but that one Prince shall better be able to govern one kingdom, than the whole world. And to affirm that the whole world may be contained in one Monarchy, learned men say is multis modis absurdissimum, In divers respects most absurd. I bring the Cal. Inst. cap. 8. Sect. 92. example of a King, because other writers use the like examples in the like matter to confute such unlikely reasons, and namely M. Caluine in the words following. That which M. Doctor affirmeth of one bishop over one whole province, and of one Bishop over the whole world, no man will deny. A warrant for the one are the examples of Timothy and Titus, and the continual practice of the Church without contradiction in the best times: but there is no warrant for the other of any credit or sufficience, being only in the most corrupt time of the Church, and contrary to all former examples and Canons. You say, if the whole Church be in one province. etc. I say, that if the sky fall you may catch larks, as the common prruerbe is. Moreover, if it were possible so to be (as now it is not) than it were no absurdity the Bishop of that Province still to remain Bishop of the same. But what moveth you to such strange suppositions? The replyers (if) turned upon himself. I might aswell say, if the whole Church were in one City, or Town, or Parish, as it was in jerusalem after Christ's ascension, and one Bishop or Pastor might be over that city, or town, or parish, than one Bishop or Pastor should be over the The Church cannot be shut up in one province now. whole Church: and so you likewise in traveling with a pastor to be in one Church, at the length bring forth a Pope. But do you not know that the Church of Christ is dispersed throughout the whole world, and can not now be shut up in one kingdom? much less in one province, except you will become Donatists. He that is not wilfully blind may see into what straits you are driven, when you are constrained to utter such impossibilities for reasons. Chap. 6. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. But he saith that an Archbishop hath not the charge of government over the whole pro ince generally, but in cases exempted, and so may do it more easily. But he should have remembered, that he assigned before the offices of Archbishop and bishop, to be in all those things which other ministers are, and that beside those offices, he giveth them particular charges. So that where the office of the minister, is but to preach, pray, and minister the sacraments in his parish, the office of archbishop and bishop, is to do the same, and more too in the whole province or diocese: And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duty in his parish, than for an archbishop or bishop to discharge their duties in any one parish of their province or diocese: for they have in every parish more to do, and greater charge, than the minister of the parish hath, than much less are they able to do their duties in all the parishes of their provinces or dioceses. Io. Whitgifte. I speak of the office of government, and so be my words. Every particular parish hath a particular pastor to preach, pray, and minister the sacraments. The Bishop hath to procure (so much as lieth in him) that all things be done in his Diocese, according to the laws & orders of the Church. The Archbishop hath not only to see that the Bishops do their duties, but to help them in reforming that, which by themselves they cannot do. The office of preaching they exercise, where & when they see it most convenient. The whole charge of preaching & of governing rests neither upon the Archbishop, neither upon the Bish p: but the one is a help unto the other, & they together with the pastors teach the flock of Christ faithfully & truly, and govern them according to the laws prescribed And therefore the whole government of the province doth not rest in the Archbishop, for the which cause he may with less difficulty execute that, that doth appertain unto him. Whatsoever any other minister may do, the same may the Archbishop do also, but it doth not therefore follow, that he is bond to the same particular parish. The pastor may preach, so may the Archbishop, but the pastors charge is particular, the Archbishops more general. And this is a very evil consequent, the Archbishop may minister the sacraments, and preach the word, therefore he must do it in every particular congregation. Chap. 6. the. 16. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 211. Sect. 1. 2. You borrowed these arguments from the very Papists, who by Arguments borrowed of the papists. the self same reasons go about to prove the Pope's supremacy, for thus they argue Among the Israclites there was one high Priest, which had authority over the rest, therefore there must be one high Priest (which is the Pope) over the whole Church of Christ. Master Caluine in his Institutions, chap. 8. doth answer this reason on this sort: Caluine. Quod in una natione fuit utile, id in universum 〈◊〉 ext dear nulla ratio cogit: imò gentis unius & totius orbis long diversa erit ratio. That which is profitable to one nation, can not by any reason be extended to the whole world, for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation. And a little after: Perinde enim est acsi quis contendat, totum mundum à praefecto uno debere regi, quia ager unus non plures praefectos habeat: It is even as though a man should affirm, that the whole world may be governed of one King, because one field or town hath but one ruler or master. T. C. Page 101. Sect. 3 & Pag. 102. Sect. 1 After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Caluine the Papists reasons for the supremacy of the Pope, and M. calvin's solutions. For what purpose he knoweth, I can not tell, unless it be to blot paper, I know not what he should mean, and the quarrel also which (a) e is not pieked, but offered he picketh, to translate this place, is yet more strange. For he saith, that the authors of the Admonition borrowed their arguments from the Papists, when the contrary is true, that they use the reasons which they of the Gospel use against the supremacy of the pope, to overthrow the archbishop: And M. Doctor doth use reasons to defend the archbishop, (b) Being truly alleged. which the Papists use to maintain the pope (c) In all aging them falsely. . For M. Doctor would prove (d) FIVE true, for he never used that for a rea on. that for because there is one king over a realm, therefore there may be one Bishop over a province, and the Papists use the same reason to prove the Pope to be a Bishop of the whole Church. Show now one reason that the authors of the Admonition brought of the papists, to prove that there should be no archbishop. But now I perceive his meaning, and that is, that he thought to get some comfort for the archbishop in M. calvin's solutions made unto the papists reasons for the supremacy. And therefore he hath haled and pulled in as it were by the shoulders, this disputation between the protestants and the papists touching the supremacy. And what is it, that M. Caluine saith for the archbishop? It hath been before showed, what his judgement was touching having one minister over all the ministers of a province, & that he doth simply condemn it in his commentary upon the first chapter of the Philip. Now let it be considered, whether in these sentences he hath said any thing against himself. The Papists object that for so much as there was one high priest in jury over all the Church, therefore there should be one Bishop over all. To whom M. Caluine answereth that the reason followeth not: for saith he, there is no reason to extend that to all the world, which was profitable in one nation. Here upon M. Doctor would conclude, that M. Caluine alloweth one Archbishop over a whole province. If one going about to prove that he may have as many wives as he list, would allege jacob for an example, which had two wives, and M. Doctor should answer and say, that although he might have two wives, yet it followeth not that he may have as many as he list, would not M. Doctor think that he had great injury, if a man should conclude of these words, that his opinion is, that a man may have two wiaes? I think that he would suppose that he had great wrong, & yet thus would he conclude of M. calvin's words in this first sentence, where as in deed M. Calinne declareth a little after, a special reason why there was but one high Priest in the whole land of jewry, which is because he was a figure of Christ, and that thereby should be shadowed out his sole mediation between God and his Church. And therefore (e) 〈◊〉 for he heweth no such thing. showeth that for so much as there is none to represent or figure our saviour Christ, that his judgement is, that as there should be no one over all the churches, so should there be no one over any nation. Io. Whitgifte. The authors of the Admonition say, that they may as sa ely by the warrant of God's word subscribe to allow the dominion of the Pope, universally to reign over the Church of God, as of an Archbishop over an whole province, or a Lord bishop over a diocese, which containeth many shires parishes. This I confute by M. calvin's answer to the arguments of the Papists, wherein it appeareth evidently how far from reason this & such like assertions are, that there may aswell be one pope over the whole Church, as one Bishop over one province or diocese. Now therefore you may see if you list, that I have translated these reasons and solutions out of M. Caluine to some purpose. And although I might have had the same solutions out of other learned writers, yet I thought it best to use M. Caluine, as one of whom you have conceived a better opinion. I may truly say, that the authors of the Admonition, borrowed this of the Papists, that there may be as well one Pope over the whole world, as one bishop over one province or diocese. The reasons for the Archbishop are solutions agains the Pope. The reasons that I use for the defence of the Archbishop, are the solutions of the arguments used from the Pope: & such solutions as are used by all learned men that writ against the Pope (as the solution of the places of Cyprian before mentioned, and now these that follow) to the strongest arguments of the Papists. Wherefore I confess that I use some of the same arguments, but not to the same end, nor in like manner. For they use them untruly, against reason, & the true meaning of the Author: I use them truly, according to reason, and their proper sense. And my using of them to the purpose that I do, is the direct answer & plain overthrow of all the arguments of the Papists. It is not therefore good dealing, to make the simple believe that the same arguments confirm the Pope, that confirm the Archbishop, when as the application of them to the one, is the quite overthrow of the other. M. Doctor never went about to prove that because there is one king over a realine, therefore there may be one Bishop over aprovince: and in uttering these and such like untruths willingly & wittingly as you do, you declare of what spirit you are. But M. Doctor hath reasoned clean c ntrarie, that it is no good argument to say, that because one king may well rule one kingdom, therefore he may also well rule the whole world, or because one Bishop may be over one province, therefore one Pope may be over all Christendom. These be papistical reasons, these M. Doctor dissolveth & con uteth: neythrr can you be ignorant of it, but malice is blind. God forgive you: for your whole drift is to bring M. Doctor into hatred & contempt, by such lying means, but God that seeth the hearts of all, will one day detect your deep dissembled hypocrisy, & reveal that lump of arrogancy & ambition, which is now cloaked with a sergeant desire of reformation. I have told you for what purpose I have used these solutions of M. calvin's, whose opinion also I have showed before concerning those names and offices. Caluine alloweth one to rule over the test of ministers, In the place to the Philippians now again repeated (and yet this Replier can abide no repetitions in others, though he use almost nothing else himself) M. Caluine overthroweth your equality, for thus he saith: Truly I grant, that (as the manners and conditions of men are) there can no order remain among the ministers of the word, xcept one do rule over the rest. And he addeth that he speaketh de singulis corporibus, non de totis provincijs, multò autem minùs de orb universo: of several bodies, not of whole provinces, much less of the whole world, meaning, as I suppose, such provinces as be under What is ment by a body in Caluine. divers governors: for one province in one particular Church, in one kingdom, under one Prince, is but one body, and therefore M. Calvin saith nothing to the contrary, but that one may praeesse reliquis ministris, rule over the rest of the ministers in such a province. Undoubtedly he can not mean that in every several parish or town there should be one, qui praesit reliquis, because the most parishes & towns, have but one minister, and he that ruleth must have some to rule over. If you will say that M. Calvin means of such ministers as be in cities where there be many, and not of the Country, where there is in every several town but one: then I answer, that it were against reason to bring the ministers of the city under the government of one, and to suffer the ministers of the country to live as they list. The same causes that require a ruler or governor for the one, requireth the same also for the other, except you would have uniformity in the city, and confusion in the country. Wherefore M. calvin's meaning is, as I have said. But you have subtly kept in his words, both here and before, because you know that they made much more against your equality, than they do against the Archbishop. It had been uprighter dealing to have set down his words, but you will neither use that plainness yourself, nor allow of it in other men. M. Caluine useth two answers to that objection of the Papists, the first whereof is this, that I have reported in my Answer. And surely he would never have used the solution, & caused it to be printed, if he had not allowed it, & thought well of it. And not he alone, but other of singular religion & zeal, have used the same, as Hyperius in the place before by me alleged: so doth M. Nowell against Dorman in his first book, Fol. 50. whose words (because they be wholly to my purpose, & an evident declaration that such testimonies may lawfully be used for the authority of the Bishops, that are Supra cap. 3. the. 15. divis. unlawfully abused for the authority of the Pope) I have set down before. Whereby also the Reader may understand how we agree both among our selves, & to ourselves, which are desirous to keep the peace of the Church, and that these places now used in the defence of the Archbishops and Bishop's authority, are no otherwise applied by us, than they were before any such controversy began. M. Caluine maketh no doubt of the matter, but setteth it down as an apt answer, and by him allowed. And therefore your objection of jacob's two wives may serve for a jest, but little to the purpose. It followeth not that if a man make two answers to one argument he disalloweth the one: for they may both be true. Touching M. calvin's second answer: I have spoken before, and declared wherein that high Priest was a figure of Christ. M. Caluine in that place hath not these words, that his judgement is, that as there should be no one over all Churches, so should there be no one over any nation. And therefore you keep your accustomed manner of falsifying. Chap. 6. the. 17. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 211. Sect. 3 Another of their reasons is this: Peter was the chief among the Calvin. Inst. cap. 8. Apostles, therefore there aught to be one chief over the whole Church. The same M. Caluine in the book and chapter before rehearsed, maketh his own answer to that argument: unus inter Apostolos summus fuit, nempè quia pauci erant numero. Si unus duodecim hominibus praefuit, an proptere sequetur, unum debere centum millibus, hominum praefici? There was one chief among the Apostles, because they were but few in number, but if one man rule over twelve, shall it therefore follow that one man may rule over an hundredth thousand? And a little after: Quod inter paucos valet, non protenu tr bendum est ad universum terrarum orb m, ad quem regendum nemo unus sufficit, That which is offorce among few, may not by and by be drawn to the whole world, the which no one man can govern. Every hive of Bees hath one chief master Bee, every company of Cranes hath one principal guide, must there be therefore but one Bee, & one Crane to direct all the Bees & the Cranes that be in the world? You see therefore how weak this reason is. The rest of this reason I have answered before. T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 1 To the Papists objecting for the supremacy the S. Peter was the prince & chief of the Apostles M. Calvin answereth, first by denying that Peter was so, & bringeth many places to prove that he was equal to the other Apostles, afterward he says, although it be granted, that Peter was chief, yet followeth it not because one may bear rule over twelve, being but a few in number, that therefore one may rule over an hundredth thousand, & that it followeth not, that that which is good amongst a few, is forthwith good in ll the world, Now let all men judge, with what conscience and trust, M. Doctor citcth M. Calnine for to prove the office of the Archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine in the same place hath these words, It is not to be marveled that Cal. inst. ca 8. the twelve had one amongst them, that might govern the rest. For this thing doth nature allow, & the disposition of man require, that in every society, though all be equal in power, yet some should be as it were moderator of the rest, upon whom the other might depend. There is no court without a Consul, no session of judges without a Praetor or justice, no College without a governor, no society without a master: so should it not be any absurdity, if we should confess, that the Apostles gave such pre-eminence unto Peter. Now let the Reader judge whether it be calvin's meaning in good earnest or not, that there was one chief among the Apostles: which being true (as it is) M. Doctor may with good conscience use this answer of M. Caluine both against the Papists, and the authors of the Admonition also, reasoning not much unlike unto them. Chap. 6. the. 18. Division. T. C. Page. 102. Sect. 1 But I marvel that he could not also see that which M. Caluine writeth in the next sentence almost, where he saith, that Christ is only the head of the church, & that the church doth cleave unto another under his 〈◊〉, but by what means? According (says he) to the order & form of policy, which he hath prescribed, but he hath prescribed no such form of policy, that one Bishop should be over all the ministers & Churches in a whole diocese, or one Archbishop over all the ministers and churches in a whole province, therefore this form of policy which is by Archbishops & such Bishops as we have is not the means to knit us one to an other in unity under the dominion of Christ. Touching the titles & names of honour which are given to the Ecclesiastical people with us, & how that princes & 〈◊〉 Magistrates may and aught to have the title which cannot be given to the ministers, I have spoken before, & therefore of Archbishops, Archdeaco s, and the Lord bishops thus far. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine in the next section after that he hath answered to other arguments of Cal. insti. ca 8. the Papists says thus: But let it be as they would have it, that it is good & profitable that the whole world should be contained in one monarchy, which notwithstanding is most absurd, but let it be so: yet I will not therefore grant, that it doth likewise hold in the government of the church. For the church hath Christ her only head, under whose government we are knit together according to that order and form of policy which he himself hath prescribed. Wherefore they do Christ notable 〈◊〉, which under this pretence will have one man to rule over the whole church, because she can not want a head, for Christ is the head, whereby the whole body being compacted and coupled by every joint of government, doth according to the operation in the measure of every member, iucrease to a perfect body. All which I agree unto as most true, but nothing at all perteyniug to your purpose. 〈◊〉 saith, that under the government of Christ we cleave together among ourselves, according to that order and that form of policy, which he hath himself prescribed: And who denieth this? But Quorsùm? This he speaketh of the spiritual regiment and policy, not of the external: and yet that external regiment and policy is also 〈◊〉 by him, which is profitable for his Church according to time, place, and person ns, though it be not particularly expressed in his word, as partly hath been declared before, and shall be hereafter more at large upon particular occasion. Thus have you (after so many years travel in this controversy) uttered all your skill against the Archbishop, poured out alyour malice, exercised your gibes and jests, whetted your slanderous tongue: and yet besides corrupt and false allegati ns of writers: fond and toyish distinctions of your own, contrary to all practice and learning: unchristian speeches and heathenish flouts and frumps, you have uttered nothing. And I protest unto the whole Church before God, that your unfaithfulness in handling the matter, your vain and frivolous reasons, have much more animated me to the defence of those ancient, reverend, profitable, and necessary offices. I speak of the offices as they be used in this church. And I shall most hearty desire the Reader to weigh and consider the authorities and reasons on both parties indifferently, and to judge thereof according to the truth. ¶ A brief collection of such authorities, as are used in this defence of the authority of Archbishops and Bishops. Ca 7. Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus, & Chrysostom says in. 1. Ti. 5. that gens ferè tota Testimonies of the Apostles times, & thereunto adjoining. Asiatica, almost the whole country of Asia was committed to him. And upon the. 2. to Timo. chap. 4. he says, that Paul had committed to Timothy gubernacula ecclesiae gentis totiu the government over the church of the whole nation, meaning Asia. Titus was Bishop of Creta, not of one city only, but of the whole Is e. So sayeth Chrysostom in his commentaries upon the first to Titus. And Lyra, Erasmns, Pelican and others writ, that S. Paul made him Archbishop of Creta. And Illyricus calleth him and Timothy, multarum Ecclesiarum Episcopos, Bishops of many churches. S. john (as Eusebius reporteth lib. 3. cap. 23.) after his return from Pathm s, did govern the Churches in Asia, and ordained Ministers and Bishops. james was made by the Apostles Bishop of jerusalem, and the government of that church was committed to him. Euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. The. 33. or as some count. 34. of the Canons attributed to the Apostles apointeth one head and chief Bishop to be in every nation or country, to whom all other Bishops of the same nation must be subject. Dionysius Areopagita was Archbishop of Athens, appointed thereunto by S. Paul as Volusianus a godly and learned writer testifieth. Polycarpus was by S. john made Bishop of Smyrna. Tertull. de prescript. In the Church of Alexandria from the time of S. Mark the ministers had always a Bishop to govern them. Hiero. ad Euagrium. Ignatius who lived in the Apostles time doth call a Bishop principem Sacerdotum, the prince of Priests, in epist. ad Smyrnenses. In Eleutherius is time, which was Anno. 180. when this realm of England Testimonies of the times next after the Apostles. Anno. 180. was first converted to Christianity, there was appointed in the same three Archbishops. and. 28. Bishops. M. Fox To. 1. pag. 146. Demetrius who lived Anno. 191. was Bishop of Alexandria, and of Egypt. Euseb. libr. 6. cap. 1. 191. Cyprian who was Anno. 235. being Bishop of Carthage, had under him Numidia 235. and Mauritania, as he himself sayeth, Lib. 4. Epist. 8. And Gregory Nazianzene in an oration that, he made of Cyprian saith, that he ruled and governed not only the churches of Carthage and afric, but of Spain also, and of the whole East church. And for this cause doth Illyricus call him a Metropolitan: the which name T. C. also doth give unto him in his Reply. Pag. 95. sect. 2. Dionysius called Alexandrinus, who lived Anno. 250. being Bishop of Alexandria 250. had also under his jurisdiction all the Churches in Pentapolis, as Athanasius testifieth in a certainepistle Apol. 2. and yet had these Churches their proper Bishop, as Eusebius doth witness lib. 7. cap. 26. Wherefore the Bishop of Alexandria did govern them as archbishop. Gregory being Bishop, did govern all the Churches thorough Pontus, An. 270 270. Eus. lib. 7. cap. 14. Epiphanius li. 2. to. 2. haeri. 68 maketh mention of one Peter, who lived An. 304. whom be calleth Archbishop of Alexandria, and declareth that Meletius then Bishop in Egypt 304. was under him: where also he hath these words: Hic enim mos obtinet ut Alexandria Episcopus, totius Aegypti, ac Thebaidis, Mariotaeque ac Lybiae, Ammonicaeque ac Mariotidis, ac Pentapolis ecclesiasticam habeat administrationem. For this custom hath prevailed, that the Bishop of Alexandria should have the Ecclesiastical government of all Egypt, Thebai , Mariota, Lybia, Ammonica, Mariotis, and Pentapolis. And haere. 69. he saith, Quotquot enim ecclesiae in Alexandri cat olicae ecclesiae sunt, sub uno Archiepiscopo sunt, For all the Churches in Alexandria that be Catholic, are under one archbishop. The same Epiphanius in the same place doth call Meletius, Archbishop of Egypt, 304. but yet he saith that he was subject to the Archbishop of Alexandria. And this Meletius lived also Anno. 304. The Council of Nice An. 330. in the. 4. Canon saith that the confirmation of Bishops 3 0. doth pertain to the Metropolitan of every province: and in the. 6. mention is made of metropolitans to be in every province, and that sec ndùm antiquum morem, according to the old custom. And it is further said, that the Bishop of Alexandria hath the regiment of Libya and Pentapolis in Egypt. In the. 6. &. 37. Canons of the second Council of Arelat. it is decreed that no Bishop may be ordained without the consent of the Metropolitan: nor any thing to be attempted 335. against the great Synod of the Metropolitan. The Council of Antioch in the. 9 Canon willeth that in every province the Bishops be subject to their Metropolitan bishop which hath the care of the whole province. etc. And in that Canon is this clause also. Secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam, 344. according to the ancient rule appointed by our forefathers. Athanasius was Archbishop of Alexandria, and had jurisdiction over the rest of the clergy, to whom also Mariotes was subject. Atbana. apo. 2. Amphilochius Metropolitan of Lycaonia governed the whole country. Theod. lib. 4. ca 11. Zozomene li. 7. ca 19 writeth that though there be many cities in Scythia, yet they have but one Bishop. Aurelius' bishop of Carthage in the council of Aphrica saith, that he had the oversight and care of many churches. Ambrose li. de dig. sacer. ca 5. maketh mention of Archbishops, & he himself was a Metropolitan, having charge and government of many churches, as the authors of the Centuries testify in their fourth century. Simeon was Archbishop of Seleucia Zozo. lib. 2. cap. 8. he lived about the time of the Nicene Council. Basile Metropolitan of Capadocia. Zozo. lib. 3. cap. 16. In the council of Constantinople, which is one of the. 4. general Counsels in the. An. 38 . and. 5. Canons this authority & regiment of Primates, metropolitans & Archbishops is contain . Which thing also Socrates doth note in the same Council lib. 5. cap. 8. In the. . Counce l of Carthage Canon. 12. etc. it is evident that in every Province An. 415. there was a primate. In the council of Chalcedon, Flavianus is called Archbishop of Constantinople: Dioscorus An. 453. Archbishop of Alexandria: Leo Archbishop of Rome, and the authorities of these offices and degrees there in divers points specified. In the first Canon of the council of Ephesus it may manifestly be gathered, that all An. 468. other Bishops of the same Province were then subject to their Metropolitan Bishop. Jerome ad Rusticum Monachun saith: Singuli ecclesiarum Episcopi, singuli Archipresbyteri, singuli archidiaconi. etc. I omit his other places add Lucif. ad Titum. etc. Ambrose in 4 d Ephe. saith that all orders be in a Bishop, because he is primus sacerdos, hoc est princeps sacerdotum, the chief Priest, that is, Prince of priests. Augustine in his questions in vetas & nowm test. cap 101. saith, Quid est Episcopus, nisi primus presbyter, hoc est Summus sacerdos? Chrysostom being Archbishop of Constantinople did also govern the Churches in Thracia, Asia, and Pontus. Tbeodo. lib. 5. cap. 28 The authors of the Centuries affirm the same, and call him Archbishop. Cent. 5. cap. 10. Theodorete being bishop of Cyrus had under his government. 800. Churches, as he himself t stifieth in his Epistle to Leo. Gennadius Bishop of Constantinople writeth to the Bishop of Rome thus, Curet Rufsi. libr. 1. cap. 29. sanctitas tua universas tuas custodias, tibique subiectos Episcopos. Infinite testimonies and examples there are of this sort, and no man that is of any reading can be ignorant but that these degrees of superiority, and this kind of regiment hath been in the Church continually, even from the Apostles tyme. M. Bucer upon the fourth to the Ephes. showeth that these de rees in the church Bishop, Archbishop, Metropolitan, Primate, Patriarch, be not only most ancient, but also necessary. M. Caluine in his Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 52. upon the place of Jerome in the Epistle ad Euagriu saith, that in the old time there was to every city appointed ascertain region, Province, or Diocese, Quae presbyteros indè sumeret, & velut corpori illius ecclesia accenseretur, and that the same also was under the Bishop of the city. Quod si amplior erat ager, qui sub eius episcopatu erat, quàm ut sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs ubique possit: per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri, qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent, eos vocabant borepiscopos, quòd per ipsam provinciam episcopum representabant. M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops, Bishops. etc. Holy names: for thus he saith, That Pastors in process of time were distinct into metropolitans, Bishops, and those whom they now call Curates (that is, such as be appointed to every Parish) was not in the respect of the ministery of the word, but rather in respect of jurisdiction and discipline. Therefore concerning the office of preaching the word, and administering the Sacraments, there is no difference betwixt Archebishops, Bishops, and Curates, for all are bound to feed their flock with the same bread, and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they be called Pastors and Bishops. But what impudency is there in those men (meaning the Papists) to use those holy names, and therefore to glory of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops. In the same chapter, he maketh two kinds of degrees used in the Papistical Church: the one unknown to the Apostles, & to the primitive church, the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitive Church: In this second order he placeth Archebishops, Curates, Can ns, Seniors or Ministers, Archedeacons', Deans, Subdeacons, clerk. But what should I stand longer in this matter? There is not one writer of credit that denieth this superiority to have been always among the clergy, and these degrees to come even from the best time of the Church since the Apostles, and so be both most ancient and general. Wherefore I can not but count such as deny so manifest a truth, either unlearned and unskilful people, or else very wranglers, and men desirous of contention. A brief comparison betwixt the Bishops of our time, and the Bishops of the primitive Church. Chap. 8 I Know that comparisons be odious, neither would I use them at this time, but that I am thereunto (as it were) compelled by the uncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the old Church, hath sought by that means to disgrace them, if it were possible. I may peradventure in this point see me to some to flatter, but the true judgement thereof I leave to him, that knoweth the secrets of the heart. In the mean time I will affirm nothing, which is not evident to all those that be learned divines, and not over ruled with affection. My comparison shall consist in these three points: Truth of doctrine, Honesty of lise, and right use of external things. Touching the first, that is truth of doctrine, I shall not need much to labour. For I think T. C. and his adherents will not deny but that the doctrine taught & professed by our Bishops at this day, is much more perfect and sounder, than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time. For the most part of the ancientest Bishops were deceived with that gross opinion of a thousand years after the resurrection, wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39 &. 35. the kingdom of Christ should here remain upon earth: The fautors whereof were called M llenarij. Papias who lived in Polycarpus and Ignatius his time, being Bishop of erusalem, was the first author of this error, and almost all the most ancient fat ers were infected with the same. Cyprian and the whole Council of Carthage erred in rebaptisation, & Cyprian himself To. con. 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep. 3. also was greatly overseen in making it a matter so necessary in the celebration of the Lords Supper, to have water mingled with wine, which was no doubt at the time common to more than to him: but the other opinion which he confuteth, of using water only, is more absurd, and yet it had at that time patrons among the Bishops. How greatly were almost all the Bishops & learned writers of the greek church, yea and the Latins also for the most part, spotted with doctrines of free-will, of merits, of invocation of Saints, & such like? Surely you are not able to reckon in any age since the Apostles time, any company of Bishops, that taught & held so sound & perfect doctrine in all points, as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speak of Ceremonies, & of the sincere administration of the sacraments, you shall find the like difference: for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro. mil. then to be used in the Church about the Sacraments, and otherwise: or those that Basile rehearseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or such as we may read to have been in S. Augustins time, with those that we now retain in this Church, and you can not but acknowledge, that therein we are come to a far greater perfection. I mean not to stand in particulars, I think T. C. and his companions will not contend with me in this point, for if they do, it is but to maynteyncontention. Seeing then that in the truth of doctrine, which is the chief and principal point, our Bishops be not only comparable with the old Bishops, but in many degrees to be preferred before them, we think there is too-too great injury done unto them, and to this doctrine which they profess, when as they are so odiously compared, and so contemptuously entreated by T. C. and his Colleags. 2 Touching honesty of life, which is the second point, I will not say much, I do not think but that therein they may be compared with the old Bishops also: and in some points preferred: every age hath some imperfections in it, and the best men are most subject to the slanderous tongue. Great contention there was among the Bishops in the Council of Nice, insomuch that even in the presence of the Emperor they ceased not to libel one against an other. What bitterness and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostom? what affectionate dealing of Theophilus against the same Chrysostom? what jarring betwixt Jerome and Augustine? But I will not prosecute this. Men, be they never so godly, yet they be men. & the comm n sort of people, when they wax weary of the word of God truly preached, then do they begin to deprave the true and chief ministers of the same. 3 For the third point, that is, the use of external things, if the ishops now have more land & living than Bishops had then, it is the blessing of God upon his church: and it is commodious for the state and time. If any man abuse himself therein, let him be reform, let not his fault be made a pretence to cloak a mind desirous to spoil. I see not how those lands and livings can be employed to more been ite of the church, commodity of the common wealth, & honour of the Prince, than they be now in state and condition wherein they remain. Bishop's shall not now need to live by pilling & polling, Amb. de dig. sacerd. August. lib. 3. adver. Permenìa. as it seemed they did in Cyprians time, for he complaineth thereof. Ser. de lapsis. Nor as some did in Ambrose or Augustins. They have (God be thanked) living sufficient with out any such unlawful means, and I doubt not but if their expenses shall be compared with their predecessors, it shall appear that they be according to the proportion that God hath limited unto them. But an eye dimmed with malice, or bent to the spoil, can see nothing that may hinder the desired purpose. God root out of the hearts of men such ravening affections and greedy desires. Of the Communion Book. Tract. 9 The general faults examined, wherewith the public Service is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. T. C. Page. 102. Sect. 2. Before I come to speak of prayers, I will treat of the faults that arecomitted almost throughout the whole liturgy, and public Service of the Church of England, whereof one is that, which is often objected by the authors of the Admonition, that the form of it is taken from the Church of antichrist, as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cut and mangled, as the most of the prayers, the manner of ministering the Sacraments, of marriage, of burial, Confirmation, translated as it were word for word, saving that the gross errors and manifest impieties be taken away. For although the forms and ceremonies which they used were not unlawful, and that they contained nothing which is not agreeable to the word of God, (which I would they did not) yet notwithstanding neither the word of God, nor reason, nor the examples of the elder Churches, both jewish and Christian do permit us, to use the same forms and ceremonies, being neither commanded of God, neither such, as there may not as good as they, and rather better be established. Io. Whitgifte. In these words are contained two false principles, the one is that the form and manner of prayer used in the Church of England, is taken from the church of Antichrist: the other, that it is not lawful to use the same forms (of prayer) and ceremonies, that the Papists did: this latter I have already proved to be otherwise, in the beginning Tract. 7. cap. 5 diui. 3. 4. etc. where I spoke of Ceremonies, and intent hereafter to answer such arguments as shall be used to prove the contrary: the first will appear to be most untrue, being manifest that such things as we now use in the book of Common prayer (though some of them have been used in the time of Papistry) were appointed in the church by godly and learned men, before the Pope was Antichrist, or the Church of Rome greatly corrupted, as the reading of the Epistle and gospel, which is of very long continuance in the Church, even whilst the church of Rome was as yet, in the principal points Reading of gospels and epistles very ancient. of doctrine pure, being also choose places of scriptures apt for the time, and most to edifying, which no honest heart and godly disposed person, can discommend. If in the administration of the sacraments, celebration of marriage, burying of the dead, confirmation, those things that are good and profitable be retained, and the gross errors and Things bused may be used, imp eties being taken a way. manifest impieties taken away, as you say they be, why do you then on this sort trouble the church, for using that which is good, & refusing that which is evil? Is Papistry so able to infect the word of God, godly prayers, and profitable Ceremonies, that they may not be used in the Church reform, the errors and impieties being taken away? Why do we call our churches, reform Churches, rather than newly builded, or as it were wholly transformed, but that we retain whatsoever we find to The church is reform, not transformed. be good, refuse or reform that which is evil. But of these matters, more is to be spoken, as occasion is offered. Hitherto you use but words, which have no weight without good and sound reasons. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 3 For the word of God I have showed before, both by the example of the Apostles conforming the Gentiles unto the jews in their ceremonies, & not contrariwise the jews to the Gentiles and by that the wisdom of God hath thought it a good way to keep his people from the infection of idolatry and superstition to sever them from idolaters by outward ceremonies, and therefore hath forbidden them to do things which are in themselves very lawful to be done . Io. Whitgifte. What you have spoken in any place of your book concerning this matter, is there answered, where it is spoken: but you have not as yet to my remembrance any where showed that God ever hath forbidden his people to do things in themselves very lawful to be done, Tract. 7. cap. 5 because the same were used by Idolaters, I have before proved the contrary, both by the manifest words of the scripture, and by the testimony of Saint Augustine, and divers other learned writers. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 4. Now I will add this further, that when as the Lord was careful to sever them by ceremonies from other nations, yet was he not so careful to sever them from any, as from the Egyptians amongst whom they lived, and from those nations which were next neighbours unto them, because from them was the greatest fear of infection. Therefore by this constant and perpetual wisdom which God useth to keep his people from idolatry, it followeth that the religion of God should not only in matter and substance, but also as far as may be inform and fashion differ from that of the idolaters, and especially the Papists which are round about us, & amongst us. (*) An unadu sed 〈◊〉. For in deed it were more safe for us to conform our indifferent ceremonies to the Turks which are are off, than to the papists which are so near. Io. Whitgifte. The Egyptians and Idolatrous gentiles neither worshipped, nor preteuded to The Gentiles and Papists not like in all respects. worship the God of Israel, and therefore no marvel though in rites, and ceremonies they were utterly severed from them: but the Papists either worship or pretend to worship the same God which we do, and therefore there is no such cause in all points of rites and ceremonies to differ from them. And it is most untrue that The jews and the Gentiles in some respect agreed in ceremo ies God so severed his people from the Egyptians or other nations near adjoining, that they had nothing common with them, or no ceremonies like unto there's: for they were like in many things touching the external form. The Gentiles had sacrifices and so had they: The Gentiles in worshipping their Gods used external pomp of garments, of golden and silver vessels and such like, and so did they, yea divers learned men be of this judgement, that God did prescribe unto the Israelites that solemn manner and form of worshipping him by external rites and ceremonies, shortly after their return out of Egypt, that they being therewith not only occupied, but also delighted, should have no desire to return into Egypt, or to worship their Gods whom they had seen with great solemnity of ceremonies and external rites adored. And therefore you ground your talk upon false principles, which you have not proved, but imagined. Now if we may have ceremonies common with them, or like unto them, from whom we wholly differ in matter and substance of religion, as we do from th' Gentiles, and from the Turks, much more may we have Ceremonies common with them, or like unto them, from whom we do not wholly diff r in mat oer and substance, but in certain material and substantial points. As for this your saying, That it were better for us to conform our indifferent Ceremonies to the Turks which are far off, than to the Papists which are so near. I take it to be but spoken in a heat, and that you will otherwise think when you have better considered the matter: the one being a professed enemy unto Christ, and the name of Christ, the other pretending the contrary. But to put you out of doubt, we do not in any kind of ceremonies, conform We conform not ourselves to the Papists in ceremonies. Tit. 1. ourselves to the Papists, but using Christian liberty in external things, & knowing that all things be clean to those that be clean, such things as we found instituted by learned and godly men, and profitable to the Church as perteyni g to e ifying, or comeliness and order (though abused of the Papists) we retain in our Churches, and restore to the right use: as our forefathers did the Temples of Idols, turning Tract. 7 cap 5 divis 3. 4. & them to Christian Churches, and revenues consecrated to Idols, transposing them to found the ministers of the Church, and such like, as I have declared in an other place. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1 Common reason also doth teach, that contraries are cured by their contraries: now Christianity and Antichristianitie, the Gospel & popery, be contraries, therefore Antichristianitie must be cured not by itself, but by that which is (as much as may be) contrary unto it. Therefore a meddled and mingled estate of the order of the Gospel, and the ceremonies of popery, is not the best way to banish popery, and therefore as to abolish the infection of false doctrine of the Papists, it is necessary to establish a divers doctrine, and to abolish the tyranny of the popish government, necessary to plant the discipline of Christ: so to heal the infection that hath crept into men's minds by reason of the popish order of service, it is meet that the other order were put in place thereof. Io. Whitgifte. Contraries must be cured by contraries in all things wherein they be contrary. Christianity How contraries must be cured by contraries. and Antichristianitie: the Gospel and popery be not in all things contrary, touching outward profession: and therefore no necessity of abandoning all things from Christianity that was used in Antichristianitie. So much of the papistical doctrine as is contrary to the Gospel: that kind of government in the Pope's Church, that is repugnant to the word of God: all such order of service or kind of prayer, as is ungodly and superstitious, is to be removed and cured with the contrary, but as they have some truth in doctrine, so have they some lawful kind of government, and good and godly prayers, all which being restored to their own purity, are to be retained: for no abuse can so defile any thing that is good, that the same thing may not be used, the abuse being taken away. And yet, if you would speak the truth, you cannot say, but that the order of the popish The order of popish service clean altered in this church service is clean altered in this Church: for what similitudes hath the vulgar tongue with a tongue unknown? What likelihood is there betwixt the multitude of ceremonies used by the Papists, and the fewnes of such as are now retained? How much doth the simplicity used in our service, differ from the pomp and gorgeousness used in there's? How contrary is our communion to their Mass? What diversity is there in the celebration of our sacraments and there's? To be short, the difference is as much as either the word of God, or the state and condition of the Church requireth: the which you might see if you were disposed: but as I have said before, Caeca malitia non videt apertissima: Blind malice seethe not those things that are most manifest. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 103 Sect. 1. Philosophy which is nothing else but reason, teacheth, that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreme, unto virtue which is the mean, that it is the best way to bring him as far from that vice as may be, and that it is safer and less harm for him to be led somewhat to far, than he should be suffered to remain within the borders and confines of that vice wherewith he i infected. As if a man would bring a drunken man to sobriety, the best and neatest way is to carry him as far from his excess in drink as may be, and if a man could not keep a mean, it were better to fault in prescribing less than he should drink, than to fault in giving him more than he aught, as we see to bring a stick, which is (*) A crooked rule. crooked, to be straight, we do not only how it so far until it come to be straight, but we bend it so far until we make it so crooked of the other side, as it was before of the first side, to this end that at the last it may stand straight and as it were in the mid way between both the croaks: which I do not therefore speak, as though we aught to abolish one evil and hurtful ceremony for another, but that I would show, how it is more dangerous for us that have been plunged in the mire of Popery, to use the ceremonies of it, than of any other idolatrous and sperstitious service of God. Io. Whitgifte. The replier prescribeth a heathenish rule of retormation. Rom. 3. Philosophy also teacheth, that both the extremes be vices, and therefore your rule doth teach that a man must go from one vice to another, if he will come to virtue, which is a mean: but Saint Paul teacheth the contrary, saying, Non est faciendum malum, ut inde veniat bonum. We must not do evil that good may come thereof. Wherefore as your rule is heathenish and nought, so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigal man to come to liberality but by 〈◊〉? no way for the glutton to come to temperance, but by pining himself? no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true fear and love of God, but by des eration? 〈◊〉 way to come rome popery to the Gospel, but by confusion, and 〈◊〉 of all good ord razors and government? Is this divinity? In deed such 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a profane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes, but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospel. The ordinary means whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e, The ordinary means to draw men from 〈◊〉. from a e treme to a mean, is the diligent reading and hearing oh the word of God, joined with earnest and hearty prayers. The best way therefore to bring a drunken man to sobriety is, not to persuade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting, but to lay before him out of the word of God the horribleness of that sin, and the punishment due unto the same. The similitude of a crooked stick is a t to set forth so crooked a precept, but not so apt to make manifest the way unto virtue. But I may not blame you for using and allowing those profane rules, which you so aptly follow, and so commonly practise in all your doings. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisdom of not conforming itself unto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent, hath the Church followed in times passed. Tertullian saith, O saith he, better is the religion of the heathen, for they use no solemnity of the Christians▪ neither the Lords day, neither the Pentecost, and if they known them, they would Lib. de Ido latria. have nothing to do with them, for they would be afraid, lest they should seem Christians, but we are not afraid to be called heathen. Io. Whitgifte. Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians, as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles together with them remaining in their wicked abuse, as it appeareth in the words that go before, which are as followeth. Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria. sunt & neomenia, & feriae aliquando a Deo dilectae, Saturnalia & lanuariae & Brumae & Matro ales frequentantur, munera commeant, strenae consonant, lusus, convivia constrepunt. O melior fides nationum in suam sectam. etc. The feasts of Saturn, of janus, of Bacchus, and of juno are frequented of us, unto whom the sabbats, new moans, and holidays sometimes beloved of God, are strange, gifts and presents are very ri e, sports and banquets keep a stir. O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect. etc. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alleged against those, that frequent the popish solemnities together with them, come to their Churches, communicate with them in worshipping their idols, and yet profess the knowledge of the Gospel, but it can by no means be drawn unto such, as withdrawing themselves from such kind of communicating with them, do in their several Churches use those good things well, which the Papists have abused: as the scripture, the sacraments, prayers and such like. Wherefore you do not well to allege tertullian's words, omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning. A man being pr sent at Idolatrous service must needs give great suspicion that he is an Idolater, and therefore no man aught to be present at it, which in heart condemneth it. But as there is no honest and godly man, which can call our service Idolatrous or Papistical, so is there none that can suspect us to be Idolaters or Papists. The whole world knowing that both our practice and profession is to the contrary. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3 Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperor speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter, saith that it is an unworthy thing to have any thing common with that most spiteful company of the jews. And a little after he says, that it is most absurd and against reason, that the jews show the vaunt and glory, that the Christians could not keep those things without their doc rind. And in another Socrat. . li. cap. 9 place it is said after this sort: It is convement so to order the matter, that we have nothing common with that nation. Io. Whitgifte. Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter, which he would not have observed according to the manner of the jews, and yet you know that the Churches in Asia, following the examples of Philip and john the Apostles, and of Polycarpus, and many other godly men, did celebrated that feast together with the jews, as it is to be seen in the fifth book oh Eusebius eccle. history. Wherefore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. &. 25. 26. importance, before it was for quietness sake determined by the Church: neither doth Constantine in either of the places mean, that we should have nothing common with the jews, but only that we should have no such things common with them, as are repugnant to Christian liberty, or to the truth of the Gospel, or such as may con rme them in their obstinacy and error. For if his meaning had been generally and simply, then might he have utterly abrogated the feast of Easter, being no commandment sore it in the new testament. As therefore Constantine thought that the Church had not the feast of Easter common with the jews, not because the thing itself was abrogated, but the aye altered: Even so the Church of England cannot be said to have any thing common with the P pisticall Church, though it retain something used in the same, because the manner is changed, and certain circumstances altered: or whereas before it was in a strange tongue, now it is in a tongue known: and whereas it was before abused and mixed with superstition, now it is rightly used and purged from all corruption. And therefore, although the thing remain, yet because the circumstances be altered, it is not the same, no more than our Sabbat is the jews Sabbat, and our Easter the jews Easter. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Counsels although they did not observe themselves always in making of decrees this rule, yet have kept this consideration continually in making their laws, that they would have the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies. The Co ncell of Laodicea, which was afterward confirmed by the sixt general Council, decreed, Tom. 1. con Lao. can. 38 that the Christians should not take unleavened bread of the jews, or communicate with their 〈◊〉. Also it was decreed in another Council, that they should not deck their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar. can. 7 . leaves, and green boughs, because the Pagans did use so, and that they should not rest from their labours those days that the Pagans did, that they should not keep the first day of every month as they did. Io. Whitgifte. What is all this to your purpose? who says that either we must use all things that the jews and gentiles did, or that the Church hath not authority to take order therein as shall be thought most convenient? the Church at this time, did perceive inconveniences in these customs and ceremonies, and therefore did by ordinaris authority abrogate them. In like manner and upon like considerations hath this Church of England abandoned great numbers of Papistical rites and ceremonies, but because it refuseth some, may it therefore retain none? or because it rejecteth those which be wicked and unprofitable, may it not therefore keep still such as be godly and pertain to order and decency? The Canon of the Council of Laodicea is this. Non 〈◊〉 a judaeis azyma accipere, Canon. 38. aut communicare impietatibus eorum. That we aught not to take unleavened bread of the ewes, or communicate with their impiety. And surely, I marvel what you can conclude of it: for no man (as I suppose) doth think that we may use ceremonies proper to the jews, and abrogated by Christ, or that it is lawful to communicate with their impiety. That Canon which you call. 73. of the Council of Bracar: is not to be found in any such Council, for there are not so many Canons in any Council so called: but the Canon that you mean (as I think) is among the Canons collected out of the Greek Synods by S. Martin, and in number. 74. The words be these. Let it not be lawful to use wicked observations of the calends, and to keep the gentiles holy days, nor to deck houses with bays or green oughes, for all this is an heathenish observation. To what purpose do you allege this canon? what doth it prove? Christians are inhibited from observing days and times and other frivolous superstitions, after the manner of the Gentiles: But what is this to godly prayers, grounded upon the word of God, or comely and decent orders and ceremonies? Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. ult. Another Council decreed that the Christians should not celebrated (*) A manifest untruth. feasts on the birth days of the mar yrs, because it was the manner of the heathen: whereby it appeareth that both of singular Afric. conc. ca 17. men, and of Counsels in making or abolishing of ceremonies, heed hath been taken that the Christians should not be like unto the idolaters, not not in those things which of themselves are most indifferent to be used or not used. Io. Whitgifte. It is marvelous to behold your dealing, and to consider how under the pretence of avoiding (I know not what) in reciting the words of such Authors as you allege, you delude the Reader with an untrue sense: as it evidently appeareth in this cannon of the Council of Africa, the words whereof be these. This is also to be desired (of Con. Afric. Can. 27. the Emperors) that such feasts as contrary to the commandments of God are kept in many places, which have been drawn from the error of the Gentiles (so that now Christians are compelled by the pagans to celebrated them, whereby another persecution in the time of Christian Emperors seemeth covertly to be raised) might be by their commandment forbidden, and the pain laid upon cities and possessions prohibited: especially seeing they are not afraid to commit such things in some cities even upon the birth days of blessed martyrs, and in the holy places. Upon which days also (which is a shame to tell) they use most wicked dancings throughout the streets, so that the honour of matrons, and the chaste shamefastness of many women which come devoutly unto that holiday, is by their lascivious injuries invaded, in so much that those religious meetings are almost shunned. In these words the heathenish feasts of the gentiles which are against the commandment of God, being full of impiety and uncleanness, are forbidden to be used of Christians in the birth days of martyrs, or at any other time. How this can be applied to your purpose, I know not, except that you count all that for fish that comes oh net. Now let the Reader consider, what weighty reasons you have hitherto used, against our order of prayer: nay rather how unaptly you have alleged both your rea sons and authorities. And whereas you seem to insinuate that the things you have spoken of be most indifferent, that is nothing so, for the most of those things prohibited by these canons, be things lest indifferent, as it may appear by that which is already spoken of them, and even in the very canons themselves. Chap. 1. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Lin. 1. It were not hard to show the same considerations in the several things which are mentioned oh in this Admonition, as for example in the ceremonies of prayer, which is here to be 〈◊〉, Lib. de anima. we read that Tertullian would not have the Christians sit after they had prayed, because the Idolaters did so: but having showed this in general to be the policy of God first, and of his people afterward, to put as much difference as can be 〈◊〉 between the people of God and others which are not, I shall not need to show the same in the particulars. Io. Whitgifte. If it were not too hard, I doubt not but that you would say something more in the matter, than you have done. I know not to what purpose you have alleged Tertul jan for not sitting after prayer. etc. except your meaning be, that we shall not kneel in praying, because the Papists did use that gesture. Howbeit there is no such thing to be found in that book of Tertullian. Wherefore you are to careless in alleging your Authors, and give to much credit (as it should seem) to other men's collections. In his book de oration, He reproveth certain that used to sit after prayer, alleging for their Author Hermas to whom the book called Pastor is ascribed, he shesheth that no such thing can be gathered of Hermas his words, and further addeth, that this gesture is to be reproved, not only because idolaters did use it in worshipping their idols, but also because it is an unreverent gesture. His words be these. Eò Tertullian. apponitur & irreverentiae crimen. etc. Hereunto is added the fault of unreverence, that might be understood even of the gentiles themselves, if they were wise: for it is an unreverent thing to sit in the sight, and against the face of him, whom thou wouldst especially reverence and worship, how much more is this deed most profane in the sight of the living God, his Angel being as yet present at this prayer. Truly your general reasons hitherto used, are neither of sufficient policy or might to deface a book, with so great wisdom, learning and zeal collected and approved. If your particular reasons be no better, a small confutation will serve. Chap. 1. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1 Furthermore as the wisdom of God hath thought it the best way, to keep his people from infection of idolatry, to make them most unlike the idolaters: so hath the same wisdom of God thought good that to keep his people in the unity of the truth, there is no better way, than that they should be most like one to another, and that as much as possibly may be, they should have all the same ceremonies. And therefore Saint Paul to establish this order in the Church of Corinth, 1. Cor. 16. that they should make their got erings for the poor upon the first day of the Sabbath (which is our Sunday) allegeth this for a reason, that he had so ordained in other Churches, so th' t as children of one father, and scruantes of one family he will have all the Churches, not only have one diet, in that they have one word, but also wear (as it were) one livery in using the same ceremonies. Io. Whitgifte. You take upon you to tell what the wisdom of God is, without any warrant of god's word, which is presumption. I told you before, that in outward show and orme the Israelites had many things like unto the Gentiles, which cannot be denied. Unity of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches, though it be not so necessary: for from the beginning there hath been therein great variety: but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired, why are you an occasion of the contrary? why do you not submit your sell e to the Church, that unity in all things may be observed. Chap. 1. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Council of Nice follow, when it ordained that where certain at the Con. Nic. can. 20. feast of Pentecost, did pray kneeling, that they should pray standing, the reason whereof is added, which is, that one custom aught to be kept through out a the Churches. It is true that the diversity of ceremonies aught not to 'cause the Churches to descent one with another, but yet it maketh much to the avoiding of dissension, that there be amongst them an unity, not only in doctrine, but also in ceremonies. Io. Whitgifte. This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ, if it were possible: but as i never was hitherto, so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth: and lest it should be in this particular Church of England, Satan hath stirred up instruments to procure the contrary, wherefore in these words (as I think) you condemn yourself and all other dis urbers of the Church, for external rites and ceremonies. Chap. 1. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Now we see plainly, that as the form of our service and liturgy cometh to near that of the 〈◊〉, so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 far different, from that of other Churches reform, and therefore in both these respects to be amended. Io. Whitgifte. From what reform Church doth it so far differ▪ or to which reform Church would you have it framed? or why should not other reform Churches as well frame themselves unto us? for we are as well assured of our doctrine, and have as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they have: except you will bring in a new Rome, appoint unto us an other head Church, and crea e a new Pope, by whom we must be in all things directed, and according to whose usage we must rame ourselves. You know what M. Caluine saith in the argument upon the Epistle to the Galatians, Calu. in argu. in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from jerusalem to other Churches: Many were puffed up (saith he) with vain glory because they were familiar with the Apostles, or at the lest were instructed in their school: Therefore nothing pleased them, but that which they had seen at jerusalem: all other rites that were not there used, they did not only refuse, but A 〈◊〉 mischief. boldly condemn. Such a kind of frowardness is a most pestilent mischief: when as we will have the manner of on Church to be in place of an universal law. But this ariseth of a preposterous zeal, whereby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeal. one master, or place, that without judgement or 〈◊〉 we would bind all men, and places unto the opinion of one ma , and unto the 〈◊〉 of one place, as unto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem in. 15. . rule. Albeit there is always mixed ambition, yea rather always too much frowardness is ambitious. The like saying he hath upon the. 15. of the Acts: Luke doth not express by what affection these va lets were moved, yet is it very like that a preposterous zeal was the cause that they set themselves against Paul and Barnabas: for there are froward froward wits. wits, whom nothing but their own, can please. They had seen at jerusalem circumcision and other rites of the law to be observed: and whether soever they come they can abide no new thing or divers: As if the example of one Church did bind all other Churches, as with a certain 〈◊〉. But although such men are led Ambition. with a preposterous zeal to more tumults, yet inwardly their ambition moveth them, and a certain kind of contumacy pricketh them forward. In the mean time, Sa han hath that which he desireth, that the minds of the godly being darkened with the smoke and mists that he casts, can scant discern black from white. Therefore this mischief is first to be avoided, that none prescribe unto other a law of their custom: lest the example of one Church be prejudicial to the common rule. Then an other A necessari caution. caution must be added, lest the estimation of men's people, do either hinder or obscure the search and inquiry of the matter and cause. For if Satan do transform himself into an Angel of light, and if he oftentimes usurp with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God: what marvel is it, if through the same wickedness he delude with the names of godly men. M. Gualther also upon these words. 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser oh Dei profectus est? writeth Gualther i 1. Cor. 14. thus: Who can think their insolency to be tolerable, that usurp authority over all Churches, and will have them servilely to be subject unto them? Therefore that which Paul here presently faith to the Corinthians, the self-same may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Clergy, which will have all men subject to their laws, and say that it is necessary unto salvation, that all souls should be subject to the Bishop of Rome. These things may also be applied against those, which compel every man to swear unto the opinion of their master, as though it were sin never so little to disagree from those things which he hath once uttered. And their ambition also is no less here reproved, which go about to bring all Churches unto the form of their order and discipline: and cry out that there is no discipline where all things are not correspondent to their orders and statutes: but these men receive a just reward of their arrogancy, when as they which come from them to other countries, do go beyond all other in sausy malopartnesse, neither bring they any thing with them from home, but a vain and untolerable contempt of all good men, neither can they abide that they should be corrected by nigh admonition of others etc. Beware of ambitious morosity, and take heed of a new Popedom. I think no Church is so bound to the example of an other, but that in external rites and ceremonies there is free liberty given unto it, to appoint what shall be for the present state and time most convenient. You may not bind us to follow any particular Church, neither aught you to consent to any such new seruitu . Chap. 1. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 3 another fault there is in the whole service or liturgy of England, for that it maintaineth an unpreaching ministery. And so consequently an unlawful ministery, I say it maintaineth, no so much in that it appointeth a number of Psalms and other prayers and chapters to be read, which may occupy the time which is to be spent in preaching, wherein notwithstanding it ought to have been more wary, considering that the Devil under this colour of long prayer, did thus in the kingdom of Antichrist banish preaching, (*) 〈◊〉. à non 〈◊〉. I say not so much in that point, as for that it requireth necessarily nothing to be done by the minister, which a child of ten year old can not oe, as well and as lawfully as that man wherewith the book contenteth itself. Io. Whitgifte. This is a strange collection, that the book of Common prayer maintaineth an preaching ministry, because it appointeth a number of Psalms and other prayers and chapters to be read, which may occupy the time that is to be spent in preaching. Would you have preaching only, and neither reading nor praying in the public congregation? or do you think that the chapters and prayers that are read occupy too long time? or are you persuaded that there cometh no profit by rea ing and praying? If you mean the first, you have the examples of the Churches in all places, and at all times against you: if you mean the 〈◊〉 the time is not so long that is spent in praying and reading, but that there may be preaching also: the longest time (if there b no Communion) is not more than an hour, and can you spend that hour better than in praying and hearing the scriptures read? If you mean the third, I shall have oc asion to speak more of it hereafter. But you say it doth not so much maintain an unpreaching ministery in that T. C. seeketh to deface the book without reason. point, as for that it requireth nothing necessarily to be done by the minister, which a child of ten years old can not do as well, and as lawfully, as that man wherewith the book contenteth itself. It requireth of him (besides plain and distinct reading) the administration of the Sacraments: and may a child of ten years old do that also? Who seeth not, that you are of purpose set to deface the book, though it be with childish reasons? Because a child may read the book, doth it therefore maintain an unpreaching ministery? you might as well say, that because a child of ten years old can read the Bible translated into English, therefore the Bible translated into English maintaineth an unpreaching ministery. This argument is à non cause . Chap. 1. the. 15. Division. T. C. Page. 104. Sect. 3 Neither can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers, for it may be easily answered, that first the want of sufficient ministers aught to be no cause for men to break the unchangeable laws of God, which be, that none may be made minister of the Church, which can not teach, that none minister the sacraments, which do not preach, for although it might be granted (which thing I would not deny, not not when there are enough sufficient ministers) that they may appoint some godly grave man, which can oe nothing else but read, to be a reader in the Church, yet that may not be granted that they may make of one that can do nothing but read, a minister of the Gospel, or one which may have power to minister the sacraments. Io. Whitgifte. Where is that unchangeable law of God, that none may minister the sacraments Some may minister the sacraments which do no preach. C rysost. which do not preach? what Scripture or authority have you for it? Chrysostom Hom. 3. 1. Cor. 1. upon these words: Non enim misit me Christus ut baptizarem. etc. saith thus: He saith not, I was forbidden, but I am not sent to do this, but to do that which was more necessary. Euangelizare enim perp ucorum est, baptizare autem cuiuslibe , modò fungatur sacerdotio: for few can preach the Gospel, but every man may baptize that i a priest. And Ambrose upon the same words and chapter, saith thus: Non omni qui baptizat Ambrose. idoneus est evangelizare, verba enims lennia sunt quae dicuntur in Baptismate. etc. Every one which baptizeth, is not apt to preach the Gospel, for the words that are spoken in baptism are usual: to conclude, the Apostle Peter commanded other to baptise Cornelius, neither did he vouchsafe to do it himself, other ministers being present, etc. Peter Martyr writing upon the same words of the Apostle, saith likewise: Therefore Peter 〈◊〉 the office of baptizing was committed to every one in the Church, but not the office of preaching. Neither is it to be doubted but the Apostles themselves would have baptised, if there had lacked other ministers. But seeing there was many whom they might win to the Gospel by preaching, they committed them to other to be baptised. So saith M. Caluine also upon the same words: Few there were to whom the office Caluine. of preaching was committed, but to baptise was committed to many, etc. Zuinglius in his book de Baptismo; of this matter speaketh thus: The disciples administered Zuinglius. the external baptism once, with doctrine and the spirit, for Christ taught, and they did baptise, as it appeareth joh. 4. And Paul said, Christ sent me not to baptise, but to preach: therefore some taught, and other some baptised. Musculus also in his common places declareth, that In some Churches some were Musculus in oc. come. de c na 〈◊〉. admitted to minister the Sacraments, that were not admitted to preach. And he doth not disallow that manner, but alloweth it. And M. Beza lib conf. cap. 5. saith: That it was the office of Pastors and Doctors generally Beza. to dispense the word, and to pray, under the which also we comprehend the administration of sacraments, and the celebration of marriage, according to the continual custom of the Church: although deacons in these things oftentimes supplied the office of pastors. And to prove this he quoteth. 1. Cor. 1. verse. 14. 15. etc. and joh. 4. verse. 2. So do other learned men in like manner: who also bring for their purpose, that which is written. . Tim. 5. Qui bene praesunt presbyteri. etc. So that you may understand that learned men be of this judgement, that some may be admitted to administer the sacraments, which are not admitted to preach. I know it to be true, that there may be some appointed to read in the Church, which be not admitted, either to preach, or to administer the Sacraments. For so it was in the primitive Church, as it is to be seen in ancient stories and wr ters: But because you would have nothing used in the Church, especially no office appointed without a commandment in the word of GOD, I pray you tell where you have either commandment or example for such kind of Readers? I do but demand this that the Reader may understand what liberty you challenge unto yourself of allowing and disallowing what you list, and when you list, without that warrant of God's word, to the which you so straightly hind all other. Chap. 1. the. 16. Division. T. C. Page. 104. Sect. 4. Besyd s that, how can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers, when as there be put out of the ministery men that be able to serve God in that calling, and those put in their rooms, which are not able, when there are numbers also which are fit to serve, and never sought for, nor once required to take any ministery upon them? If therefore it were lawful to plead want of able ministers, for this do be ministery, which is altogether unlawful, yet would this plea never be good, until such time as both those were restored which are put out, and all other sought oorth, and called upon which are fit for that purpose. Io. Whitgifte. You know what was before alleged out of the confession of the Churches of Helvetia, that the harmless simplicity of some shepherds in the old Church, did sometimes Confes. Heli . more profit the Church, than the great, exquisite, or fine, or delicate, but a little too proud learning of some others. A great sort think too well of themselves, & be of nature unquiet: Unquiet natures must be removed. such of necessity (if by no means they can be kept in order) must be removed: for the Church may not for their sake be rend & torn in pieces: neither must you that so well allow of discipline, burden other men with it, & cast it off yourselves. There is none in this Church of England removed from his ministery but upon just causes, and ministers must be subject to laws and orders. Those that be willing to come into the ministery lack no provoking nor moving The ministery hindered, & by whom. thereunto, if they be known: but it is you & your company which labour by all means possible to dehort men from the ministery, persuading them that the calling is not ordinary and lawful. And surely your meaning is to make this Church destitute of ministers, that it may of necessity be driven to admit your platform and government. But you shall never be able to bring it to pass: the more you labour the more you are detected. And those wise men that seek the truth in sincerity of conscience, will espy your purposes daily more and more, and be moved to a just mis iking of them. The restitution of those that be put out of the ministery, I think is soon obtained, if they will submit themselves to the order of the Church, which they aught of duty to do, both the laws of God, and man requiring the same. Chap. 1. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. ult. Again it can not be said justly, that they have taken these reading ministers, until such time as better may be got, for if the Church could procure able ministers, & should desire that they might be ordained over them, they can not obtain that, considering that these reading ministers have a free hold, and an estate for term of their lives in those Churches, of the which they are such ministers: so that by this means the sheep are not only committed to an Idol shepherd. I might say a wolf, and speak no otherwise than Augustine speaketh, in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the Church, but the door also is shut upon him, and sparred against any able minister that might happily be found out. Io. Whitgifte. And would you so gladly intrude yourselves into some of their rooms? surely I believe it, & it is not unknown but that some of you have laboured to do it: Well, I hau before told you the judgement of the reform Churches touching such ministers as be not able to preach, being otherwise virtuous and godly. I have also set down the opinion of divers learned and godly men, concerning ministers admitted to minister the sacraments, which notwithstanding can not preach. If any man use him sell e in his ministery leave lie, or otherwise than beseemeth him, his estate for term of life is not so sure, but that he may be dispossessed of the same. Otherwise if he use himself honestly, and as it becometh him, though he have not the gift of preaching, (which notwithstanding is to be wished) God forbidden that either you or any man else, should seek to displace him, that you might enjoy the room yourselves. And surely if the minister were but tenant at will, or of Courtesy (as you would seem to have him) his state should be most slavish and mistress rabble, and he and his family ready to go a begging, when soever he displeaseth his parish. If you had told me where Augustine speaketh that, I should have quickly let you understand his meaning, but his books be many & large, the sentence you allege short, and therefore it were to much for me to search it out. Moreover it improveth nothing now in question. But with what face can you lout and jest at me, for once or twice not quoting the chapter or leaf: yourself so often offending in quoting neither chapter, leaf, book, nor tome? Chap. 1. the. 18. Division. T. C. Page. 105. Sect. 1 There is a third fault which likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this service & liturgy of England, & that is, that the pro ite which might have come by it unto the people is not reaped, whereof the cause is, for that he which readeth is not in some place heard, and in the most places not understanded of the people, through the distance of place between the people and the minister, so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell, whether he hath cursed them or blessed them, whether he hath read in Latme or in English, all the which riseth upon the word s of▪ the book of service, which are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place, for thereupon the minister in saying Morning and Evening prayer, sitteth in the Chancel with his back to the people, as though he had some secret talk with God which the people might not hear. And hereupon it is likewise, that after Morning prayer, for saying another number of prayers he clymeth up to the further end of the Chancel, & runneth as far from the people as the brickwall will let him, as though there were some variance between the people & the minister, or as though he were afraid of some infection of plague, & in deed it renueth the memory of the Levitical priesthood, which did withdraw himself from the people into the place called the holiest place, where he talked with God, and offered for the sins of the people. Io. Whitgifte. This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the book, and therefore no sufficient reason against it, if it were true. But you herein deal as you have done in other matters, that is, corruptly and untruly. For you do not report the words of Corrupt dealing. the book concerning this matter, as they be in deed: and it is wonderful, and argueth great impadencie, that you are not ashamed, to report untruly in so public a cause. The words of the book be these: The Morning and Evening prayer shall be used in the accustomed place of the Church, Chapel or Chancel, except it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinary of the place. And you leaving out all the rest, say, that the words of the book of service are, that the minister should stand in the accustomed place: as though it bound him of necessity to the Chancel, which is nothing so. But you Errors and isorder maintained by falsifying, must be born with, your errors and disorders can not otherwise be maintained, but by falsifying. I think there are but few Churches in England where the By: shops have not taken a very good order for the place of prayer, if any Bishop have neglected it, the fault is in the Bishop, not in the book. But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightiness of the reasons, where by you go about to deface the book of common prayer. Chap. 1. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewise or marriage he cometh back again into the body of the Church, and for baptism unto the Church door, what comeliness, what decency, what edifying is this? Decency (I say) in running and trudging from place to place: edifying, in standing in that place, and after that sort, where he can worst be heard and understanded. S. Luke showeth that in the 〈◊〉 Church both the prayers and preachings, and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwise. For he showeth how S. Peter sitting amongst the rest, to the end he might be the better herded, rose, and not that only, but that he stood in the midst of the people, that his voice might as much as might be, come indifferently to all their ear s, and so standing both 〈◊〉 and preached. Now if it be said for the Chapters and Litany, there is commandment given th' t they should be read in the body of the Church, in deed it is true, and thereof is easily perceived this disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers, partly in the hither end, & partly in the urther end of the Chancel: for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church, that the people may both hear & underst and what is read, what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of. Unless it be, that either those things are not to be heard of them, or at the lest not so necessary for them to be herded, as the other which are recited in the body or midst of the Church. And if it be further said, that the book leaveth that to the discretion of the Ordinary, and that he may reform it, if there be any thing amiss, than it is easily answered again, that besides that it is against reason, that the commodity and edifying of the Church should depend upon the pleasure of one man, so that upon his either good or evil advise & discretion, it should be well or evil with the Church: Besides this (I sa ) we s e by experience of the disorders which are in many Churches and Dioceses in this behalf, how that if it were lawful to commit such authority unto one man, yet that it is not safe so to do, considering that they have so evil cue tten themselves in their charges, and that in a matter the inconvenience whereof is so easily seen, and so easily reform, there is notwithstanding so great and so general an abuse. Io. Whitgifte. These be passing weighty arguments to overthrow the book, and come from a Weighty reasons against the book. deep and profound judgement: If I should use the like, you would wipe them away with scoffing. The book appointeth, that the people to be married shall come into the body of the Church with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married: and what fault can you find in this? Is not the midst of the Church the most meet place for such a matter? The book speaketh neither of the coming back of the minister, nor his going forward, these be but your jests: and yet must he go both backward and forward, if he will either come into the Church, or go out of it. For baptism, the book appointeth no place, but because there is no just cause known why the fon e should be removed, therefore the minister doth stand where that is placed, which is somewhere in one place, somewhere in another, for I know divers plac s where it is in the midst of the Church, some place where it is in the nethermost part, I know no place where it standeth at the Church door. And therefore in saying that for baptism the minister goeth to the Church door, you do but counterfeit. No man denieth but that both praying and preaching. etc. aught to be in that place where it may be best herded of all: and therefore the book doth prudently leave it to the discretion of the Bishop. But the midst is not the fittest place for that purpose: He that standeth in the midst of the Church hath some behind him, some before him, and some of each side of him, those which be behind, or on the sides, can not so well hear, as those that be before, as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Hospital, at the Cross in Paul's, and other places. Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Church is most fittest, both for praying and preaching, where the minister may have the people before him, except the Church be so great, and the people so many, that he cannot be herded of them, than there aught to be some regard thereof. S. Luke telleth what S. Peter did in the congregation, he doth not prescribe any general rule: Every circumstance that is told in the scriptures, is not straightway to be made an inviolable rule of all men to be followed. The place is not material, so that it be such as the people may well hear and understand that which is read and preached. Concerning the lessons which are to be read, the book prescribeth no place, only it willeth the minister to stand and to turn him so, as he may best be herded of all such as be present. And are you offended at that? neither doth the book appoint any certain place for the Le any to be said in, and therefore you do but dally and trifle. The Ordinary is the meetest man to whose discretion those things should uld be le t: both for his learning & wisdom, and also that there may be one uniform or 〈◊〉 his diocese: if any Ordinary be careless in such matters, if you will complain of him, I am sure you shall be herded. But your delight & pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops, though the cause be forged. Chap. 1. the. 20. Division. T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3 And the end of the order in the book is to be observed, which (*) 〈◊〉 is to keep the prayers in the accustomed place of the church, chapel, or chancel, which how maketh it to edification? And thus for the general faults committed either in the whole liturgy, or in the most part of it, both that I may have no need to repeat the same in the particulars, and that I be not compelled always to enter a new disputation, so often as M. Doctor says, very 〈◊〉 & unlike a divine, (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. whence so ever this or that come, so it be not evil, it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte. What is the end of the book in that matter? why do you not express it? But you say it is to keep the prayers in the accustomed places. etc. if this be the end: why doth the book admit alteration? do you not see your self manifestly convinced by the book? I believe, and I am well assured, that the end is edification, whatsoever you imagine to the contrary. And undoubtedly you have found out marvelous weighty and witty reasons against the whole liturgy, or the most part of it: And the faults you have noted be very many and exceeding great. But have you no conscience in calling good evil? or are you not afraid upon so light quarrels to make such a schism in the Church, and to bring so worthy a book into so great contempt? Well, you will one day be better advised, I doubt not: which truly I wish for, and hope for, how uncourteously so ever you have used me. That which M Doctor saith, so unskilfully and unlike a divine, he hath learned of better and more skilful divines, than either of us both be: that is, of Ambrose and of Caluine: for the one saith: Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est: All truth of 〈◊〉 in▪ ▪ Mat. vers. 37. whom soever it is spoken, is of the holy Ghost: the other, Purus est multarum erum usus, quarum vitiosa est origo. The use of many things is pure, whose beginning is vicious and unpure. But M. Doctors bore affirmation (if he had so used it) is of as good credit, as your bore negation: But when he hath learned men of his opinion and judgement: for you thus to shifted it of, is but to bewray your unableness to disprove it, either by authority or reason. You should at the lest have made true repor e of my words, which you have not done, but dealt therein according to your accustomed manner, for my words be th' se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whom it was invented, in Pag. 82. sect. what book it is contained, so that it be good and profitable, and con onant to God's word: and you report them thus: whence soever this or that come, so it be not evil, it may be well established in the church of Christ. If you have the truth, why do you thus go about to maintain it with lies? In so doing you hurt not me, but yourself, and your cause. ¶ An examination of the particular faults, either in matter or form, wherewith the book of common prayer is charged. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3 Now I come to the form of prayer which is prescribed, wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallow of prescript service of prayer, but of this foe rme that we have, (*) A prop excus . for they expound themselves in the additions unto the first part of the Admonition. Io. Whitgifte. In deed they have retracted it in some point, which argueth they writ their book at the first with small advise, and less discretion. It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation, for the places of Scripture which they quoted, and their very words declare that they meant the contrary, and so doth their practice in secret conventicles. But now you come to my Answer, wherein you take what you list, and leave what you list as you have hitherto done. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. Admonition. The fourteenth. Then ministers were not so tied to any form of prayers invented by man, but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moved them, so they powered forth hearty supplications to the Lord Now they are bond of necessity to a (h) Damasus the first inventor of this stuff, well furthered by Gregory the seventh. prescript order of service, and book of common prayer. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 77. Sect. 3 To prove that ministers were not so tied to any form of prayer, invented by man, but that as the spirit moved them, etc. you quote Rom. 8. & the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romans the words be these: Likewise also the spirit helpeth our infirmities, for we know not what to pray, as we aught, but the spirit itself maketh request for us, with fighes which cannot be expressed. This place speaketh nothing against any prescript form of prayer, for than it should disallow the lords prayer, but it teacheth us that it is the spirit of God that sturreth us up to pray, and maketh us earnestly pour out our supplications unto God. And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers suddenly invented. The words to Timothy Epist. 1. ca 1. vers. 2. are far fetched, & nothing to the purpose: the words be these. Unto Timothy my natural son in the faith, grace mercy and peace from God our father, and from Christ jesus our Lord: what maketh these words against any prescript form of prayers? peradventure you would have alleged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all, supplications, etc. which maketh directly against you. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered to this. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 78. Sect. 1 If you mean by prayers invented by man, such prayers as man inventeth against the word of God, as prayer for the dead, prayer unto saints, & such like, than it is true that you say. But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures, whether they be for matters pertaining to the life to come, or to this life, than you show your ignorance, for it is manifest, that there hath been always in the Church of Christ, a prescript form of public prayer, as it appeareth in justinus Martyr. Apol. 2. Pro Christianis, & other justinus Martyr. ancient fathers: neither did ever any learned or godly man, or reform Church find fault herewith, or not greatly commend the same, except only the sect of Anabaptistes. T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. ult. & Pag. 106. Sect. 1 It is not to any purpose, that M. Doctor setteth himself to prove that there may be a prescript order of prayer by justine Martyrs testimony, which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript form of prayers, only he saith there were prayers, he saith in deed the ancient fathers say that there hath been always such kind of prayers in the Churches, and although they do say so, yet all men may understand easily, that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture, or that he hath heard other men say so: for so much as that Doctor which he hath choose out to speak for ll the rest, hath no such thing, as he fathereth on him. He sayeth that after they have baptised, they pray for themselves, and for him that is baptised, and for all men that they may be meet to learn the truth, and to express it in their honest conversation, and that they be found to keep th' mmaundementes, that they may attain to eternal life, but is this to say that there was a prescript form of prayer, when he showeth nothing else, but the chief points, upon the which they conceived their prayers? If you had alleged this to prove what were the matters or principal points that the Primitive Church used to pray for, you had alleged this to purpose, but to allege it for a proof of a prescript form of prayer, when there is not there mentioned so much as the essential form of prayer (which is the ask of our petitions in the name and through the intercession of our Saviour Christ) without the which there is not, nor cannot be any prayer, argueth that either you little know what the form of prayer is, or that you thought (as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often) that this gear of yours should never have come to the examination. But for as much as we agreed of a prescript form of prayer to be used in the Church, let that go: this that I have said is to show that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause, which is very seldom in this book, yet than he marreth it in the handling. Io. Whitgifte. I have the less laboured in this point, because it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches, in all times, and so unlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition. justinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose, for in that he doth rehearse those chief points of their prayers then used, it is manifest that they had a prescript order and form of prayer, the which no man can deny that readeth the place. I grant that these words prescript form of prayer, are not there to be found: Yet is there a prescript order and form by him generally described: whereby it is more than probable, that at that time, there was used a prescript form of prayer. In the 3. Council Con.. Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we find this Canon: Let no man use the forms of prayer which he hath framed to himself, without conference with brethren, that are better learned. Whereby it may evidently be gathered, that at that time there was a prescript form of prayer used, and that it was not lawful to use any new form of private prayers, except the same were allowed by the brethren. But for as much as in this point you consent with me, and grant that there may be a prescript form of prayer: I will omit whatsoever I had purposed to have said more in that matter: and so I will do also your taunts, respecting the matter, rather than Lucian's Rhetoric. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop & therefore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri, etc▪ to be disallowed: but he did not first ordain a prescript form of public prayers, he only added something thereunto. As Gloria patri, etc. to the end of every psalm: And decreed that Psalms should be sung aswell in the night time, as in the day time in every Church, but they were song in the Church before, and as I have said, there was a prescript form of prayer in justinus Martyrs time, who was long before Damasus. Gregory added the Litany only. I muse what you mean to Gregory made the Litany. writ so manifest untruths. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered to this. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 79. Sect. 1 You note not here (neither are you able) any prayer in the whole Communion book, wherein there is any thing not agreeable to God's word, we may say as S. Augustine saith in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam. Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine. nihil invenies, quod non ista Dominica contineat & concludat orati . unde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis, eadem tamen in orando dicere: sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere. And if thou runnest through all the words of the holy prayers. I suppose thou shalt find nothing which the lords prayer doth not contain and comprehend: therefore we may in other words speak the same things in our prayers, but we may not speak contrary things. T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth, that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole book which is not agreeable to the word of God. I am very loath to enter into this field, albeit M. Doctor doth thus provoke me, both because the Papists will lightly take occasion of evil speaking, when they understand that we do not agreed amongst ourselves in every point, as for that some few professoures of the Gospelt being private men, boldened upon such treatises, take such ways sometimes, and break forth into such speeches, as are not meet, nor convenient. Io. Whitgifte. In so saying I do fully agree with such as have learnedly and truly written against the common adversaries of this Book: among whom there is one that written a Book Entitled: A sparing restraint of many lavish untruths, which M. Doctor Harding doth challenge in the first Article of my Lord of Sarisburies' Reply. The A sparing re train. Author of that book writeth thus. O M. Harding turn again your writings, examino your authorities, consider your Counsels, apply your examples, look if any line be blamable in our service, and take hold of your advantage. I think M. jewel will accept it for an Article. And a little after: Our service is good and godly, every title grounded on holy Scriptures, and with what face do you call it darkness? This was his opinion then of our service. And it both was then, and is now my full persuasion: and I will (God willing) perform that against you, which he offered in M. Jewel his name against Harding. Your othnesse to enter into this field, is but dissembled: your continual barking The Repliet his words contrary to his deeds. against the state and form of this Church of England, doth convince you of the contrary. Neither have you any respect or regard for giving occasion oh evil speech to the Papists, much less of provoking your adherentes to undutiful speeches (as you pretend) your book tending wholly to the contrary. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3 Notwithstanding my duty of defending the truth, & love which I have first towards God, and then towards my country, constraineth me being thus provoked to speak a few words more particularly of the form of prayer, that when the blemishes thereof do appear, it may please the Queen's inaiestie & her honourable council, with those of the Parliament, whom the Lord hath us oh as singular instruments to d liver this realm from the hot furnace and iron yoke of the popish Egipte, to procure also, that the corruptions which we have brought from them (as those with which we being so deeply died and stained, have not so easily shaken of) may be removed from amongst us, to the end that we being necrclicr both joined unto the sincerity of the gospel, and the ollicie of other reform Churches, may thereby be joined nearer with the Lord, and may be set so far from Rome, that both we may comfort ourselves in the hope, that we shall never return thither again, and our adversaries which desire it, and by this to much agreement with them, and to little with the reform Churches, hope for it, may not only be deceived of their expectation, but also being out of all hope, of that which they desire, may the sooner yield themselves unto the truth, whereunto they are now disobedient. Io. Whitgifte. What duty can there be in defacing a known and received truth? what love, in flaundering your country unjustly, and renting it in pieces with sects and Schisms, and provoking the subjects to have misliking of their Magistrates, and such as be placed in authority over them? these be but cloaks to cover an evil and ungodly purpose. If you shall be able to show any such blemishes in the book of Common prayers, they shall not be covered for me: but if not, than are you not a man to be credited. I have told you M. calvin's, and M. Gualters' opinion, touching the ambitious Supra Cap. . t e 13. Divisi . morosity of such, as would have all Churches framed, after the example of some one: and now I tell you again, that there is no cause why this Church of England, either for truth of doctrine, sincerity of public divine service, and other policy should give place to any church in Christendom: and sure I am, that we are as 〈◊〉 joined with the Lord our God, as the members are to the body, and the body to the head. Our adversaries have oh such hope upon any such occasion as you pretend: if The adversaries hope is in contention. their hope be any, it is especially in your contentions. Wherein do we agree with the Papists, or wherein do we descent from the reform Churches? with these we have all points of doctrine and substance common: from the other we descent, in the most part both of doctrine and ceremonies. From what spirit come these bold and untrue speeches? Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papists triumph in this case, I shall not greatly need to fear it▪ ring that their discords and contentions are greater, a d that our strife is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arthur from them. For the other that profess the Gospel, I will desire in the name of God; that they abuse not my labour to other end, than I bestow it, and that they eepe hemselues in their callings, commit the matter by prayer unto the Lord, leaving to the ministers of the word of God, and to the magistrates that which appertaineth unto them. Io. Whitgifte. It is true of the Papists: but they deal in their controversies more circumspectly and warily, though they descent in matters of far greater importance, and in the chief points of their own Religion. To the professors of the Gospel you give better Council than you have taken yourself: and you show an example contrary to your words: and therefore how shall they believe you. But now to the matter: for hitherto you have uttered nothing but words. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. T. C Pag. 106. Sect. ult. To come therefore to touch this matter. I answer that there is fault in the matter, and fault in the form. In the matter, for that there are things there, that aught not to be, and things there are wanting in the order that should be. Of the first sort is, that we may evermore be defended The collect of Trinity Sunday. from all adversity. Io. Whitgifte. The first fault that you find in the matter of prayer, is a portion of the Collect of Trinity Sunday, wherein we pray, That we may evermore be defended from all adversity: And is this the matter you mislike? let us then consider your reason. Chap. 2. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1 Now for as much, as there is no promise in the scripture, that we should be free from all ad ersitie, and that evermore, it scemeth that this prayer might have been better conceived, being no prayer of faith, or of the which we can assure ourselves that we shall obtain it. For if it be said, that y the word (adversity) is meant all evil, we know that it hath no such signification neither in this tongue of ours, neither in other tongues which use the same word in common with us, but that it signifieth trouble, vexation, and calamity, from all the which we may not desire always to be delivared. And whatsoever can be alleged for the defence of it, yet every one that is not contentio s, may see that it needeth some caution or exception. Io. Whitgifte. I think no man will contend with you for the signification of this word 〈◊〉: for it properly signifieth all affliction or trouble that pertaineth either to the body, or to the mind. And it is species mali, a kind of evil, for Malum doth contain not only vice and sin, but adversity also and affliction. But to come to your reason: you say, there is n promise in Scripture that we should The argument retorted. be free rom all adversity: and therefore we may not pray to be free from all adversity. If this be a good argument than will I also reason thus: there is no promise in Scripture that we should be free from all sin: therefore we may not pray that we should be free from all sin. There is no promise in Scripture, that we should be free fro persecution but the contrary rather, and therefore we may not pray against persecution. Likewise there is no promise that we shall be always delivered from povertic, and from divers other particular evils. To be short, if this rule and reason be good, then must we pray for nothing, except first we search in the Scriptures, whether there be any promise for the same or no. But you and all Christians aught to understand, that our prayers and faith annexed Our prayers and faith are grounded upon promises. to them, are grounded upon these promises. Whatsoever you ask in my name, that will I do. And again: If you ask any thing in my name, I will do it. john. 14. And in the. 16. chap. Verily verily, I say unto you, whatsoever you shall ask my father in my Io n. 14. n me, he will give it you. Upon these promises is both our faith and prayers grounded. john. 16. But for because in ask of extern ll things, we be uncertain whether they A condition nnexed to petitio s for external things. be profitable for us or not, therefore we ask them with a condition (which although if be not expressed, yet it is always understood) if it be Gods will: being certainly persuaded, that if those things we ask be profitable for us, we shall obtain them for his promise sake. And for as much as all good things come of God, whether they pertain to the body, or to the soul, and at all times to be delivered from adversity is on of his singular benefits, we may no doubt beg the same at his hands, referring not withstanding the granting of it to him, who knoweth what is better for us than we do ourselves. If you will spoil us of this liberty in praying, you shall not only bring prayer into a narrow room, but depri e us of one of the greatest and most singular razors nsolations, that a Christian man can have in this world. We cannot assure ourselves that we shall obtain any external benefits by prayer at God's hands: because we know not whether that which we ask be profitable for us or no: and yet God forbid, that we should cease from praying even for such things. David being put out of his kingdom by his Son Absalon, was not assured that he . Samuel. 15. should be restored agay e, and yet did he pray for it, with this condition, if it pleased God. Christ himself prayed to have the cup of his passion removed from him, Mattb. 26. which undoubtedly he known before would not be granted unto him. Many examples there be in the Psalms, of prayers made for external things, of the obtaining whereof the Prophet could not assure himself. Well saith S. Augustine, When Augustine. thou dost ask of God health of the body, if he know it be profitable for thee, he will give it unto thee: if he give it not, than it is not profitable for thee to have it. Therefore we may lawfully ask any external been fire at God's hand, because he hath willed us so to do: and the same petition or prayer, is a prayer of faith, because it hath promise in the Scripture to ground upon, which is, Whatsoever you shall ask my jobn. 16. father in my name, etc. and such like. But the success of our prayer we must commit to him of whom we ask, as David did. And why should this manner of speaking seem so strange unto you, do we not read in the. 91. Psalm, that a promise is made to those that love God in this manner. Psal . 91 There shall no evi l come unto thee, neither shall any plague come nigh unto thy dwelling. Is not this as much as though he should have said, thou shalt ever be defended from all adversity? for as learned interpreters say, dictione mali omnis generis afflictiones, miserias, & aerumn as complectitur, The Psalmist in that place by this word evil, doth comprehend all kind of afflictions, miseries and calamities: so that you have here the very words expressed, that you find fault with in the prayer used on Trinity Sunday. Wherefore they may still remain without any caution or exception. And I would to God, you were as far from contention as those be that think so. I might here add and say, that we are delivered from all adversity after twóo Deliverance from adversity of two sorts. sorts, that is, bodily and spiritually: Bodily, when we are not temporally and externally afflicted with them. Spiritually, when we are not overcome by them, or caused to decline from God, or to mistrust in his mercies. That we may pray to be delivered from all adversity, in the first signification, I have proved: that we aught so to do in the latter signification, there is no Christian man that doubteth. Chap. 2. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. In the collect upon the twelfth sunday after Trinity Sunday, and likewise in one of those which are to be said after the offertory (as it is termed) is done, request is made, that God would give those things, which we for our unworthiness are not ask: for it carrieth with it still the note of the popy she servile fear, and savoureth not of that confidence and reverent fam liaritie, that the children of God have through Christ, with their heavenly father, for as we dare not without our saviour Christ ask so much as a crumb of bread, so there is nothing which in his name we are not ask, being needful for us, and if it be not needful why should we ask it? Io. Whitgifte. I pray you whether doth he prayer of the Pharisey, that so extolled himself, Humiliti 〈◊〉 prayer. or of the Publican that so humbled himself like you better? belike you prefer the Luc. 18. Pharisies prayer, else would you never find fault with us, for acknowledging our own unworthiness, which is the root and ground of humility, one of the principal ornaments of prayer. We are not worthy of the lest benefit that God bestoweth upon us: And therefore duty requireth that we should not for desert desire any thing at his hands: and humility sayeth, that in desiring we aught to acknowledge our own unworthiness. If a man be desirous to obtain any thing at his father or free des hand, of whom he hath received many things, and not recompensed the lest, is not this a meet kind of speech for him to use? there is something necessary for me to have, but I dare not ask it at your hands for my unworthiness, who have received so much already without any kind of recompen e: surely this is both the next way for him to obtain that which he desireth, and a good tóken not of servile fear, but of true humility, and of that due reverence that a good child oweth to a most natural and loving father. The Publican dared not come nigh, nor lift up his eyes: so did he acknowledge his unworthiness, such was his humility. And yet you know what Christ did pronounce of him, and what general rule he groundeth Luc. 18. upon that example, even this. Omnis qui se exaltat etc. Every one that exalteth himself shall be brought low. etc. You know also what the prodigal son said to his own father after his father had embraced him, and received him into mercy. Luc. 15. Neque posthac sum dignus qui vocer filius tuus. And I am no more worthy to be called thy son. God forbid that we should so presume of ourselves, that we should shut humility, and the acknowledging of our own unworthiness, from faithful and hearty prayer. In that therefore we say (for our own unworthiness we dare not ask it) we both ask it, and yet with all humility acknowledge our own unworthiness: which if it be spoken unfeignedly, cannot be but greatly accepted of God. And surely this kind of begging is most effectual and it is used towards those to whom we think ourselves most bound, and whom (for their benefits bestowed upon us) we love most derely. Neither doth this kind of prayer savour of mistrust, but rather of great confidence, in the mercy of God, at whose hands we crave those things, which we are of ourselves unworthy to ask, or receive. Chap. 2. the. 11. Division. Admonition. They pray that they may be delivered from thundering and tempest when no danger is nigh: that they sing, Benedictus, Nunc dimittis and Magnificat, we know not to what purpose, except some of them were ready to die, or except they would celebrated the memory of the Virgin, & john 〈◊〉. etc. Thus they profane the holy scripture. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 202. Sect. 4. You mislike also that we should pray to be delivered from thundering and Prayer to be delivered from thunder, good. tempest, when there is no danger nigh. You broach many strange opinions, may not we pray to be delivered from perils and dangers, except they be present, and known to be at hand? where find you that Christ teacheth us to say in our daily prayer libera nos à malo, deliver us from evil? What know we when there is any danger of thundering and lightning: have we not examples of divers that have suddenly perished with the same? Is it not therefore necessary to pray for deliverance from thunder and lightning, as well as from other dangers, though they be not present? well, men may see whereunto this gear tendeth, if Magnificar & Nunc dimittis etc. they be not blind. Benedictus also, Nunc dimi tis and Magnificat, be great motes in your eyes, but you show no reason worthy to be answered: only in derision you say, except some of them were ready to die, or would celebrated the memory of the Virgin, or john baptist. As though these Hymns or Psalms were not profitable for all men, as the rest of the holy scripture is, but these especially, because they contain the mystery of our salvation, and the praise of God for the same. By this your reason we may not use any of the Psalms, until we be in like case as David was, or other, when they were first made. But I think now the time is come, when those shall correct Magnificat, Qui nesciunt quid significat. Truly this your doing is a mere profanation of holy scriptures. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. And if all the prayers were gathered together, and referred to these two heads of God's glory, and of the things which pertain to this present life, I can make no Geometrical and exact measure, but verily I believe, there shall be found more than a third part of the prayers which are not Psalms and texts of scripture, spent in raying for, and praying against the incommodities of this life, which is contrary to all the arguments or contents of the prayers of the church which are et down in the scripture, and especially of our saviour Christ's prayers, b the which ours aught to be directed, which of seven petitions bestoweth one only that ways: And that these fo esayde prayers do not onel in general words, but by the ucting the commodities and incommodities of this life i to their particular kinds, & that we pray for the avoiding of those dangers which are noth g near us, as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter, from stor e & tempest, when the weather is most fair, and the seas most calm. etc. It is true that upon some urgent calamities prayer may and aught to be afraid, which may beg either the commodity, for want whereof the church is in distress, or the turning away of that mischief, which either approacheth, or which is already upon it, but to make those prayers which are for the present time and danger, ordinary and daily prayers, I cannot hitherto see any either scrupture or example of the primitive church. And here for the simples sake, I will set down after what sort this abuse crept into the church. Io. Whitgifte. I think you do confess and acknowledge that it is lawful to pray for things which pertain to this present life: if you should deny it, I could confute you by the prayer that jacob made to be delivered from the hands of his brother Esau, Ge, 32. and by sundry of the Psalms, and divers examples in the Gospel, of such as craved the like things at Christ's hands, and obtained their desire: how many such prayers be in the book of common prayer, it skilleth not, so long as you cannot prove them to be other than godly and necessary. If in every prayer we make some petition for temporal things, we do but imitate and follow that prayer which Christ hath prescribed unto us, both as a most necessary prayer, and as a rule also to frame and form all our prayers by. You might as well prove that we aught not so often to ask remission and forgiveness of our sins, because of seven petitions, there is but one only bestowed that way. How far therefore this reason is from godliness and reason, the godly and reasonable Reader may i dge. All things to be prayed for tend to the glory of God. All things we pray for tend to the glow ie of God, who is the author and giver of all things, both eternal and temporal. Things that are to be prayed for, are of two sorts, the oh e temporal, the other eternal: but they both pertain to the glory of God though not equally and in like manner. The wise man sayeth, in the days of prosperity think of adversity. etc. Christ Math. 24. forewarning his disciples of the external afflictions and evils, which should Prayers be danger. happen as well before the destruction of jerusalem, as the end of the world, willeth E cle. 11. them to pray before the danger be present, saying: Pray that your flight be not in winter, nor upon the sabbath, and will you not ha' e us to pray for deliveraun e from Math. 24. such perils and dangers whereunto we be subject, except they be present? shall we not pray to be delivered from thundering & lightening, stormeand tempest, plague and pestilence and such like, except we be in manifest peril and danger, these things being in God's hands to punish us with, even in a moment, and when we think it most unlike? have we not sundry examples of such as have suddenly perished with thundering and lightening, and some sithence the publishing of your book? what scripture The presumption of the Re plier. have you or authority of any learned man to the contrary? will you be credited upyour bore word against so many grave, learned, wise and godly men, that add the penning and allowing of that book? surely that were against all order and reason: and it is to great presumption for you with so light and slender reasons to go about the overthrow of that, which so many godly and learned men have both liked and allowed, except they had allowed that which the scriptures do disallow. Chap. 2. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 3 There was one Mamereus bishop of Vienna, which in the time of great earthquakes which were Plat. cap. Leo. in France, instituted certain supplications, which the Grecians and we of them, call the Litany, which concerned that matter, there is no doubt but as other discommodities rose in other countries, they likewise had prayers accordingly. Now pope Gregor e either made himself, or gathered the sum plications that were made against the calamities of every country, and made of them a great Litany or supplication, as Platina calleth it, & gave it to be used in all churches, which thing albeit all churches might do for the time, in respect of the case of the calamity which the churches suffered, yet there is no cause why it should be perpetual, that was ordained but for a time, and why all lands should pray to be delivered from the incommodities that some land hath vin troubled with. Io. Whitgifte. As though we were not at all times subject to these perils and dangers: and as though we aught not by the calamity of other nations, to be moved earnestly to pray against the like, which might also happen to us. It is not to be doubted, but that the prayer of the just is acceptable to God, and that of his mercy he being thereby moved, doth stay from plaguing us with earthquakes, thundering and lightening and such like calamities, wherewith he would otherwise punish us. Truly your reasons be marvelous profane, and they might as well be alleged, The reason used against the Litany is of the same force against the psalms. against any of the Psalms, which all were made at the first upon some special occasion, and yet are profitable for ever, in all states of the Church to be used. Whatsoever good and godly prayer, in the time of any common misery and calamity hath been invented, the same is at other times profitable to be used in the Church, because the like punishments and plagues, are in God's hands, at all times to execute upon sinners, and therefore continually to be prayed against. Chap. 2. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 4. The like may be said of the Gloria patri, and the Athanasius Creed, it was first brought into the Church, to the inde that men thereby▪ should make an open profession in the Church of the divinity of the son of God, against the detestable opinion of Arius and his Disciples, wherewith at that time marvelously swarmed almost the whole Christendom, (*) A weak reason. now that it hath pleased the Lord, to quench that fire, there is no such cause why these things should be in the Church, at the lest why that Gloria patri, should be so often repeated. Io. Whitgifte. Even as convenient now as it was then: for it is as necessary to maintain The manifestation and maintenance of truth as necessary as the suppression of errors. truth, and make it known, as it is to suppress errors: and yet it is not unknown, that even in our days, and in this Church there have been Arians, and I pray God there be none still. I much suspect the matter, not well understanding whereunto those glances of yours at Gloria patri▪ and Athanasius Creed do tend. Gloria patri, besides that it containeth a brief confession of the Trinity, and of the Divinity of Gloria patri. jesus Christ, it is a magnifying and glorifying of the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost, three people and one God: and Athanasius creed, is not only an excellent Athanasius Creed. confutation of Arius heresy, but a plain declaration of the mystery of the Trinity, such as is necessary for all Christian men to learn and know: and therefore he that is offended with the oft repetition or saying of either of them, I cannot tell what I should judge of him. But undoubtedly there is great cause why I should suspect him at the least of singularity and unquietness. Shall we not oftentimes rehearse the Articles of our belief in God the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost, because all men be now persuaded therein, and none known that maketh any doubt? the reason is all one, and prevaileth as well against the repeating of this, as of the other. I think your meaning is, that we know to much, and therefore now we must learn to forget. Well your authority is little, and your reasons much less, and therefore they are like to stand in Statu quo: and this is most sure, that harm they do none, but much good, because a good thing cannot be to oft said or heard. Chap. 2. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. ult. Moreover to make Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc dimittis, ordinary and daily prayers, seemeth to be a thing not so convenient, considering that they do no more concern us, than all other scriptures do, and than doth the ave Maria, as they called it. For although they were prayers of thanks giving in Simeon, Zacharie, and the blessed virgin Mary, yet can they not be so in us, which have not received like benefits, they may be added to the number of Psalms, and so song as they be, but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them, is not without some inconvenience & disorder. Io. Whitgifte. Here is no reason showed, nor any thing answered to that I have alleged to prove the contrary. Your objection of the ave Maria is vain, for it pertaineth to the virgin only, and is spoken to her people. But if it were not so: what kind of reasoning call you this? The Church doth not use daily in public prayer to say ave Maria, Ergo it may not say Benedictus, Magnificat or Nunc dimittis, these three are moste meetest for us, for they contain (as I have said in my Answer) the mystery of our salvation and the praise of God for the same, and therefore cannot be to often either said or sung. Chap. 2. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 2. And so have I (*) Very slender lie: and if you had said less of them, you had said nothing 〈◊〉 all. answered unto those things, which are contained in the. 202. 203. pages, saving that I must admonish the reader, that whereas you will prove that we ought to have an ordinary prayer, to be delivered from danger of Thunder, lightnings. etc. because there are examples of certain that have been killed thereby, you might as well bring in a prayer, that men may not have fails from their horses, may not fall into the hands of robbers, may not fall into waters, and a number such more sudden deaths, wherewith a greater number are taken away, than by thunderinges or lighteninges, and such like, and so there should be never any end of begging these earthly commodities, which is contrary to the form of prayer, appointed by our Saviour Christ. Io. Whitgifte. The punishment of God by thundering and lightening, is more notorious and terrible, not by any help of man to be repelled: where as the other things that you speak of, come oftentimes and moste commonly through negligence, wilfulness, unruliness, to much boldness, undiscretenes of the parties themselves: besides this there are ordinary means to avoid them, and yet I think it most convenient, that we should pray against those evils, and so doth the Church daily in the last collect, used in the morning prayer: which thing also is most consonant to the Lords prayer, petitions to the like end and purpose, being there expressed. Chap. 2. the. 16. Division. T. C. Page 108. Sect. 2. And whereas you allege the petition of the lords prayer (deliver us from evil) to prove this prayer against thunder, etc. besides that, all the commodities and discommodities of this life are prayed for, and prayed against in that petition, whereby we desire our daily bread, it is very strange to apply that to the thunder, that is understanded of the Devil, as the article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth declare, and it is a marvelous conclusion that for so much, as we aught daily and ordinarily, and publicly desire to be delivered from the Devil, Ergo we aught daily, & ordinarily, & publicly d sire to be delivered from thunder: it is one thing to correct Magnificat, and an other thing to show the abuse of it. And therefore I fee no cause why you should use this allusion between Magnificat and significat, unless it be for that you purposing to set out all your learning in this book, would not so much as forget an old rotten proverb, which trotted amongst the monks in their cloisters, of whom I may justly say which Tully said in an other thing, Nec quicquam ingenium potest monasterium: that is, the cloister could never bring forth any witty thing, for here although there be Rhythmus, yet it is sine ratione. Rhyme without reason. Io. Whitgift. All men may see that you hunt for contention and strife, and not for the truth, The interpretation of the last petition. otherwise you would be more upright and sincere in your dealing. The effect of my Answer to the Admonition is, that for as much as this word malum in the last petition of the lords prayer, doth contain all kind of evil, whether it pertain to the body or to the mind, therefore all such prayers as are for our deliverance, from external perils and dangers, being grounded upon that petition, are lawful, whether they be daily used or otherwise, in which sort and kind those prayers are, wherein we desire to be delivered from thundering and lightning, the dangers thereof being so frequent, and so terrible. And whereas you say, that the word Evil, doth there signify the Devil, & therefore not adversity, & external evil that happeneth to the body, you shall understand your error, by the expositions both of the old and new writers. Cyprian in his exposition upon the lords prayer interpreting these words sayeth thus. In the last Cyprian. place we put. But delivers us from evil: comprehending all kind of adversities, which the enemy worketh against us in this world. And a little after: But when we say, deliver us from evil, there remaineth nothing which aught further to be desired, seeing we pray at once for the protection of God against evil, which being obtained, we stand secure and safe, against all things which the world and Devil worketh. Augustine likewise in his Epistle ad Probam viduam in number. 121. and Cap. 11. expoundeth Augustinus. the same words in like sort. When we say deliver us from evil: we admonish to consider that we are not as yet in that good (estate) where we shall suffer no evil: and this which is last placed in the lords prayer, is extended so far, and so plainly, that a Christian man moved with any kind of tribulation, may in this petition sigh, in this shed his tears, begin herein, continued herein, and end his prayer herein. M Bucer expounding the same words in his Commentaries upon the. 6. of Matthew, Bucer. saith. Satan is therefore called a tempter, because he doth tempt and exercise us: especially labouring for this, that he may withdraw us from a right faith in God: but if he cannot bring that to pass (such is his hatred) than he doth rejoice in afflicting and molesting us, with external evils, as we read that he hath done against job and other holy men. And a little after: Wherefore for as much as Satan is (as it were our tormenter, by whose ministery God doth also outwardly exercise us) in this respect, the prayer, to be delivered from bodily evils, is included in this last petition. In like manner doth Musculus expound the same: and do you think that these men did not understand their Pater noster? You see therefore that although the word signify the Devil, yet it nothing hindereth my interpretation, but maketh much for it, because the Devil is the Author of all evil, that cometh either to the body or to the soul, and therefore being delivered from him, there is no cause why we should be any longer careful. There is no abuse of Magnificat as yet showed, but there is a very unlearned reason in the Admonition put, why it should not be used, to the Answer whereof you have not replied, and therefore I may justly say of their correcting of Magnificat, that which I have said: and the Proverb is meet for such unskilful people: but your childish or rather profane jests and scoffs be not seeming for a Divine, and him that would he counted so greatly learned and mortified. Chap. 2. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 3 As these are divers things more than aught to be conveniently, so want there some things in the prayers: there are prayers set forth to be said in the common calamities, & universal scourges of the realm, as plague, famine, etc. And in deed so it aught to be, by the word of God, joined with a public fast commanded, not only when we are in any calamity, but also when any the churches round about us, or in any country receive any general plague, or grievous chastisement at the lords hand. But as such prayers are needful whereby we beg release from our distresses, so there aught to be as necessarily prayers of thanks giving, when we have received those things, at the lords hand, which we asked in our prayers. And thus much touching the matter of the Great faults in little matters. prayers, either not altogether sound, or else to much or to little. Io. Whitgifte. If any thing lack in the book, that derogateth nothing from that which is good & godly in the same: neither is it any cause why any man should deprave it or make such a stir and schism in the Church for it. It is meet that we should as well give thanks for the benefits received, as to pray for the receiving of them: neither is the book void of any such kind of prayers. These be vut very small quarrels against the book, and slender faults (if they were faults) to make so great a schism for. But as I said with S. Augustine, August. Epist. 121. against the Authors of the Admonition, so say I unto you. If thou runnest through all the words of the holy prayers, I suppose thou shalt find nothing which the lords prayer doth not contain: therefore we may in other words speak the same things in our prayers, but we may not speak contrary things. You have not as yet, neither will you ever be able to show one line in any prayer contained in that book, to be contrary to the word of God, or not consonant or agreeable unto the same. And this dealing of yours against it upon so weak reasons (or rather none at all) argueth that you seek only contention, and that your chief quarrel is at the maintainers of the book, and not at the matter. Chap. 2. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 4. Concerning the form, there is also to be misliked: a great cause whereof is the following of the form used in Popery, against which I have before spoken. For whilst that service was set in many points as a pattern of this, it cometh to pass, that in stead of such prayers as the primitive Churches have used, and those that be reform now use, we have diverse (a) These are seemly term▪ for Godly prayers, be they re so sho t short curtes & shred, which may be better called wishes than prayers. And that no man think that this is some idle fancy, and that it is no matter of weight what form of prayer we use, so that the prayers be good, it must be understanded, that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine which our Saviour Christ and his Apostles have preached, (b) Where learn you that. unless the same form of doctrine, and of teaching be likewise kept: so is it not enough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God, unless that the form also be agreeable unto the forms of prayers in the scripture. Now we have no such forms in the scripture as that we should pray in two or (c) The lords prayer is not much more: the prayers of the publican, of Steven, & of Christ on the Cross, are much less. three lines, and then after having read a while some other thing come and pray as much more, and so to the. xx. and. thirty. tune, with pauses between. Io. Whitgifte. You have very aptly answered yourself, though you would seem to make it an objection, and to wipe it away: for undoubtedly when you thought that other men would count this devise vice of yours an idle fancy, you thought truly, and your own thought therein condemneth you. But I add that it is not only an idle fancy, but an untrue surmise: for first, which be those prayers that the primitive Church used, in stead whereof we have but short cuts and shred? Why do you not name them? Will you still speak without proof? Will you raise up a general slander, and show no particulars? Touching your charging us with following of the form used in Popery, I have answered before, where you have in like manner objected it, and only objected it. How prove you that it is not sufficient, to preach the same doctrine that our Saviour The fensie of the plyer concerning the form of preaching. Christ and his Apostles have preached, unless the same form of teaching be likewise kept? For I take that to be an idle fancy, and utterly untrue. I am persuaded that if the same doctrine be preached, the manner and form of preaching is left for every one to use, according to the gift that God hath given unto him, as he shall think it to be most expedient to edifying: but this is an old fancy of yours, partly grounded upon an arrogant opinion of yourself, whose manner and form of preaching you would bind all men: unto partly of emulation and envy, because you have perceived other men's manner and kind of preaching, to have been much better liked than yours. But to let this pass, Christ and his Apostles did not usually pray before nor after their Sermons, or at the lest it is not expressed in Scripture that they did: they when they preached did not usually take any one certain place or portion of Scripture to entreat of: and it is manifest that they used not any uniform manner of preaching, but they spoke as God gave them utterance: neither did they labour or study for their Sermons, but preached as present occasion served: and therefore for my part, until I hear very good reasons of this new devise, I must needs account it a very fond imagination. Show me wherein the form of our prayers doth differ from the manner and form of praying contained in the Scripture? Or show me in the Scripture, any prescript form of public and daily prayers commanded, the lords prayer only excepted. Or let me understand what scripture you can allege why in the public congregation, we may not sometime pray, and sometimes read the scriptures: & what do we else in the whole order of our service? will you still more and more utter your contempt against God, against his Church against a most pure and godly kind of public prayer and service, and that with such unreverend speeches? But I omit them, it is enough to have noted them in the margin, for they are confutation to themselves. Chap. 2. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. ult. If a man should come to a Prince and keep such order in making his petitions unto him, that having very many things to demand, after he had demanded one thing he would stay a long time, and then demand another, and so the third, the Prince might well think, that either he came to ask, before he known what he had need of, or that he had forgotten some piece of his suit, or that he were distracted in his understanding, or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication. And therefore how much more convenient were it, that according to the manner of the reform Churches: first the minister with an humble and general confession of faults, should desire the assistance of the Lord, for the fruitful handling and receiving of the word of God, and then after that we have herded the Lord speak unto us in his word, by his minister, the Church should likewise speak unto the Lord, and present all those petitions and suits at once, both for the whole Church, and for the Prince, and all other estates which shall be thought needful. Io. Whitgifte. As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God: so far is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude. from proving your purpose: except you will admit the like similitude used by the Papists, to prove praying to Saints: for the one hath as much strength to prove any thing as the other, and yet neither of them both worth a rush. And here you do injury to God, to compare him to an earthly Prince, especially in this behalf. For what Prince would not think himself abused, if a man should daily and hourly sue unto him? But it is not so with God: for we have a commandment to pray continually. Luke. 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the form of words, but the affection of the heart. And in very deed it is most convenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled. All the scripture that you have to allege is the reform Churches, let other men think what they will, I verily believe that in our manner and kind of worshipping God, in our public and common prayers, there is no cause why we should think ourselves one whit inferior unto them: they also or the must part of them, have allowed the same order of ours, at what time the like contention was about the same book, among our English men which were in Q. Mary's time banished for the gospel. Chap. 2. the. 20. Division. T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts, it may be answered that S. Luke doth not express the whole prayers at large, but only set down the sums of them & their chief points. And further it may be answered, that always those prayers were continued together, and not cut off, and shred into diverse small pieces. Io. Whitgifte. How know you that S. Luke doth not express the whole prafers at large, but only set down the sums of them & their chief points? What scripture have you that teacheth you so to think? & if this be a sufficient answer to say, the scripture hath not expressed the whole. etc. Why is it not also a sufficient answer for me to that which followeth, that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any form of public prayer. hath not expressed any certain, or determinate form of public prayer to be used in all Churches (as in deed it hath not) but only in the lords prayer given certain general points, according to the which all our prayers must be framed? Surely your fancy is strong, but your arguments be exceeding weak. For tell me I pray you, where have you in the whole new testament (the lords prayer only excepted) any form of public prayer used in the Church described? If you cannot show this, why do you so childishly dally? Chap. 2. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appointed in diverse places, to say after the Minister, whereby not only the time is unprofitably wasted, and a confused voice of the people, one speaking after another caused, but an opinion bread in their heads, that those only be their prayers which they say and pronounce with their own mouths. Which causeth them to give the less heed to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister, which notwithstanding are as well their prayers, as those which they pronounce after the Minister, otherwise than the order which is left unto the Church, of God doth bear. For God hath ordained the Minister to this end, that as in public meetings, he only is the mouth of the Lord from him to the people, even so he aught to be (*) Untruth. only the mouth of the people from them unto the Lord, and that all the people should attend to that which is said by the Minister, and in the end both declare their consent to that which is said, and their hope that it shall so be and come to pass which is prayed, by the word Amen. As S. Paul declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians. And justine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis. showeth to have been the custom of the Churches in his time. Io. Whitgifte. God be thanked, that the book is so per te, that you are constrained for saving your credit with your Disciples, thus triflingly to deal with it: you unchristianly say, that the time is unprofitably wasted, which is spent in prayer: you imagine that of the people, that never entered into their thoughts: you call it a confused voice, that is a most acceptable sound unto the Lord: and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient, then may we imagine your doctrine to tend to the contempt of prayer, and the overthwarting of all good and godly order. But you must know that there is more special cause, why the people should rather rehearse after the Minister those things that the book appointeth them so to do, than the other prayers, because they contain a general confession of sins, which all Christians together as well in voice, as in heart, aught to confess: neither doth the book prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister (the lords prayer after the Communion only excepted) but these general Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and public confessions: and yet if it did, I see not how you can justly therefore reprove it. Musculus expounding these words, Et cum bymnum cecinissent. etc. thinketh it not unlikely ipsum ita praelocutum esse, ut verba ipsius ab illis sint excepta & vicissim reddita. That Christ did in that order speak before his Disciples, that they repeated his words after him. Whereby it appeareth that he was so far from thinking this order to be on unprofitable wasting of time, that he doubteth not to ascribe it to our Saviour Christ and his Apostles. But if it be such an unprofitable wasting of time, to rehearse prayer after the Minister, how happeneth it, that you and all other your partners that be preachers, use to 'cause the people to pray after you in your Sermons? Is it lawful for you so to do in the pulpit, and is it not lawful for the Minister to do the same in the Church? Belike nothing is well done that you do not yourselves, or are not the Authors of. But here I cannot omit that which you so boldly affirm, of the Minister, whom The ministes not the only mouth of the people. you say God hath ordained to be the only mouth of the people from them unto the Lord in public meetings: are you of that opinion, that the people may join with the minister in pronouncing public prayers, at no time? Or that they should only attend to that which is said by the Minister, and in the end give their consent by this word Amen? Hath God ordained this? I pray you where find you this ordinance? Sure I am that the place by you alleged doth not prove it. For although it be true that the Minister is the mouth of the people to God, yet doth it not follow, that he is the only mouth of the people unto the Lord▪ And although we read that the people used to give their consent unto the prayer pronounced of the Minister, by this word Amen: yet if you will hereof conclude that they aught only to say Amen: and at no time join as well in voice as in heart, with the Minister (which you seem to affirm in saying he is the only mouth) then besides the weakness of your conclusion, the practice of the Church of God will sufficiently confute you. We read that when Peter and John were let go, after their examination before the Priests and Elders, for healing the man that was lame from his mother's womb, they came to the rest of his Disciples, and declared to them what had happened, and when they heard that, Act. 4. they lift up their voices to God with one accord, and said, Lord thou art God, etc. So that the Minister here was not the only mouth of the people, but the whole company that was assembled joined together in this prayer, lifted up their voices and spoke with one accord. And surely it is not unlike, that they used herein that order which you before accounted an unprofitable wasting of time: for seeing that this prayer was framed according to the present occasion, I am persuaded that the rest did rather repeat the words after him that conceived the prayer, than that they all miraculously joined upon the sudden in one and the same for me of words. Pliny in an Epistle to Plinius Epist. lib. 10. Trajan the Emperor concerning the Christians, writeth that their custom was stato die ante lucem convenire carmenque Christo quasi Deo dicere, secum invicem, etc. to meet together early at an appointed day, and to sing together a song unto Christ as unto God. Chrysostom going about to prove that in some respect there is no difference betwixt the Priest and people, useth this for an example, that in public prayer they sometime join together. His words be these, Quin & precibus. etc. A man may also see the people Chrysost. hom. 18. in. 2. Cor. to offer many prayers together for those that are possessed & penetenciaries (as they term them) for common supplications are made both of the Priest, and of them, and they all say one prayer, etc. And again, quid miraris si cum sacerdote populus loquitur? why dost thou marvel if the people speak together with the priest, etc. You can not be ignorant (I am sure) that basil likeneth the sound of men, women, and children praying in the Church, to the roaring of the waves against the Sea banks. This Basil. Hexam. might you have seen also even in that place of justine Martyr which you quote: for 4. Apol. 2. there describing the liturgy, he saith, that after the exhortation or Sermon, Omnes surgimus & compre amur, we do all rise and pray together, etc. This you skipped over, and took that which followed, because it made more for your purpose: for indeed justine doth describe both, that is both the prayer of the whole Church together, and of the Bishop alone the people giving their consent by this word Amen. I need not to use more testimonies, these may suffice to declare by the practice of the Church, that the Minister is not the only mouth of the people in public meetings, which you have only set down without any proof, for what purpose, you know best yourself, surely I cannot conjecture, except it be that the people should wholly depend upon the Ministers words, and as it were hung upon his lips, which where unto it would in time grow, wise men can consider. But what need I to stand so long upon this point, seeing you yourself afterward The replier contrary to himself. Pag. 163, in the midst. affirm as much▪ For finding fault with the order of singing Psalms side by side, you have these words. From whence soever it came, it cannot be good, considering that when it is granted that all the people may praise God (as it is in singing of Psalms) there this aught not to be restrained unto a few, and where it is lawful both with heart and voice, to sing the whole Psalm, there it is not meet that they should sing but the one half with their heart and voice, and the other with their heart only. For where they may both with heart and voice sing, there the heart is not enough. Than the which, what can be more contrary to this, that the Minister aught to be the only mouth of the people to the Lord? For here you affirm that all the people may praise God, and sing Psalms, not with heart only, but with voice, and so to be their own mouth unto the Lord. How you can reconcile this gear I see not: sure I am that truth is not contrary to itself. Chap. 2. the. 22. Division. T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 3 Although these blots in the common prayer be such, as may easily enough appear unto any, which is not wedded to a prejudicate opinion, and that there is no great difficulty in this matter, (*) Conscientia I'll testes. yet I know that this treatise of prayer will be subject to many reprehensions, and that there will not be wanting some probable colours also whereby these things may be defended, if men will set themselves to strive and to contend: yet for the desire that I have that these things should be amended) and for the instruction of the simple, which are studious of the truth, I have been bold to utter that which I think, not doubting also but that the light of the truth shall be able to scatter all those mists of reasons, which shall go about to darken the clearness thereof. Io. Whitgifte. Surely if the blots be so manifest as you would seem to make them, it is not wisely done of you so slenderly to pass them over. You do well to think that this treatise of yours touching prayer will be subject to The pith of the reply concerning prayer. many reprehensions: and why should it not? What is there in it worthy of commendation? What learning? what reason? what truth? what godliness? except vain words be learning: fancies reason: lies truth: contempt of good laws and orders, with unseemly jests, be godliness: for what is there else in this treatise? Truly if you had not settled yourself to strive and to contend, and had not been desirous to pervert the simple, rather than to instruct them, you would never upon so weak a ground & with so feeble reasons, or rather vain fancies have go about to deprave so worthy a Book: In the which as I have said before, you are not able to show any thing, especially touching the order, manner, and matter of prayer, that is not consonant to the word of God. Neither have you for all that is spoken against the form of prayer, alleged one text of Scripture, or one sentence of any ancient or late writer: and do you think that men will believe you upon your bore words, against so many Martyrs and learned men, as have allowed and do allow that book? Your credit is not so great as you think it is: and that which you have, when you are accordingly detected, will utterly vanish and fade away. Of Baptism by women, wherewith the Communion book is falsely charged. Chap. 3. the. 1. Division. Admonition. In which a great number of things contrary to God's word are contained, as baptism (i) Mat. 28. 19 1 Co. 14. 35 The first appoynter hereof was Vietor. 1. Anno. 198. by women. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 79. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. All prayers good in the Communion book. But you say, a number of things contrary unto God's word are contained in this book, as baptism by women. etc. Here is not one prayer in all the Communion book found fault with, and yet your quarrel is against a prescript form of prayers invented by man. You marvelously forget yourself, and confusedly go from matter to matter, without any consideration. Digressing therefore from prayers contained in the Communion book, you come to other matters in the same, against God's word (as you say) and first you allege baptizing by women. I deny baptizing by women to be expressed in that book, and when you have proved it to be necessarily gathered out of the same, then shall you hear my judgement thereof. T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 4. Master Doctor requireth that it should be proved unto him, that by private Baptism is meant, Baptism by women. First it is meant that it should be done by some other than the Minister, for that the Minister is bid to give them warning, that they should not baptize the child at home in their house, without great cause and necessity: secondarily, I would gladly ask him who they be that are present, when the child is so shortly after it is born, in great danger of death, and last of all Master Doctor doth not see, how he accuseth all the Magistrates of this Realm of the neglect of their duty, in that they allow of the daily practising by women in baptizing children, if so be that the book did not so appoint it, or permit it. If he nt plainly herein there needed not so much a do. Io. Whitgifte. Here is nothing said which the Authors of the Admonition have not alleged before, either in their book or in their Additions, and therefore the same answer that was made unto them, will serve for you. I told you there Why baptism is called private. that the book of Common prayer doth call it private Baptism, in respect of the place, which is a private house, and not in respect of the Minister: which evidently appeareth in these words, which you yourself allege in this place, that is, that the Minister is bid to give them warning, that they should not baptize the child at home in their house. etc. but you cannot thereof conclude the meaning of the Book to be, that women should baptize: for even in that necessity, the Curate may be sent for, or some other minister that may sooner be come by. Your question is soon answered, for no man doubteth of the people that be present at such a time: but I have told you, that when such necessity requireth, the Curate, or the next Minister is soon sent for, as often times he is in as great extremities as that: and what a reason call you this, women be present when the child that is born is in great danger of death, therefore the Minister cannot be sent for to baptize the child? To your objection (of the Magistrates allowing the practice of baptizing by women) I answer first, that your general proposition is untrue (as I think) for all the Magistrates of this Realm, do not so. Secondly, that if they did, yet it followeth not that they do it by the authority of the Book: for many things be permitted as tolerable, which are not established by any law: and therefore if you had done well, you should rather have reproved the custom that doth use it, than the book that speaketh never a word of it. I deal as plainly as I can, for I keep me to the Book. But your vain conjectures and frivolous reasons against that book, may not be yielded unto, but opened, that they may appear in their colours. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. ult. Your places of Scripture alleged against it, are not of sufficient Feeble arguments. force to prove your purpose. Christ in the. 28. of Matthew, said to his disciples, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father. etc. ergo women may not baptize. I say this argument followeth not, no more than this doth: Ergo pastors may not baptize, for it is manifest that an Apostle is dislincte from a Pastor. T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 5. The place of the. 28. of Saint Matthew is as strong against women's baptizing as it is against their preaching. For (a) Untruth, 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 the ministery of the word and Sacraments can not be pulled in sunder, which the Lord hath joined together from time to time. For (b) These examples prove not the purpose. Noah which was a preacher unto the old world of the will of God, was ordained also of God to make the Ark, which was a Sacrament and seal of his preaching, touching the destruction of the world. And (b) These examples prove not the purpose. Abraham whom the Lord would have to be the Doctor of his church, which was then in his family, was also commanded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision unto his family. The (b) These examples prove not the purpose. Priests and Levites which were appointed to teach the people, were also appointed to sacrifice and to minister other sacraments in the Church. Likewise the same Prophets which God stirred up to preach, he also ordained to confirm the same by signs & Sacraments. The (b) These examples prove not the purpose. same may be also drawn throughout the new Testament, as unto every of the twelve, and afterward to the seventy, power was given both to preach the Gospel, and also to confirm with signs and miracles, which were seals of their Doctrine. And (b) These examples prove not the purpose. Saint Paul by the commandment that our Saviour Christ gave him to preach, undertook also to baptize, although there were no express words that licensed him thereunto, for he knew right well that it was the perpetual ordinance of God, that the same should be the ministers of the word and Sacraments. Whereupon it followeth, that forasmuch as women may not prcache the Gospel, not not by the laws of the realine, that they aught not to minister Baptism. Io. Whitgifte. My reason alleged in my Answer to the Admonition, why this place doth not make any necessary conclusion against the baptizing by Women, is not answered: but there is a new collection made of the same place, which is of as great force as the other: for you might as well conclude thus: Ergo, Pastors may not preach, because Pastors be not Apostles. I speak of the Argument, not of the thing. For I would not have the Scriptures abused to confirm, not not a truth, lest it make men the bolder to wrest them at their pleasure, and for the confirming of error. M. Zuinglius in his book De Baptism saith, that Christ did Zuinglius. not in this place of matthew, institute baptism nor prescribe either time, place, or any other circumstance, pertaining to the same. I have proved before, that the administration of the Sacraments, may be committed to some, to whom the public preaching of the word is not committed, and your examples here alleged do not prove the contrary, except you will Tract. 9 ca 1. sect. 15. have us to ground points of doctrine, upon bore examples: which if we should do, many inconveniences would follow, yea even baptising by women, which you so greatly mislike. A facto ad ius, or à non facto ad non ius, be the usual reasons of the Anabaptistes, but of no force. The example of Noah helpeth you not, except you will either allegory, or prove that the minister of the word may make Sacraments, because Noah made the Ark, 〈◊〉 Ark can not be properly termed a sacrament in that signification that ours be, for it had no promise of eternal life annexed unto it, neither was it any seal of gods promise': but a means to save Noah and his family from perishing by the waters: and a type and figure of the Church of Christ, as you have before confessed. Pag. 63. Sect. 1 Your examples which follow (although some of them be very unapt, for miracles be no sacraments, neither yet every kind of signs and wonders) may as examples T. C. omitting the purpose, proveth that which is not denied. show, that the administration of the sacraments, was committed to such as were preachers of the word. But they cannot prove that it was only committed unto them, and to no other. It is not required of you to prove whither he that may preach, may also administer the sacraments, but whither it be of necessity, that none should be admitted to minister the sacraments except the same also be admitted to preach: the contrary whereof I have showed before. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 80. Sect. 1 The second place you do allege is. 1. Cor. 14. where Paul saith it is a shame for Women to speak in the congregation: Paul says not, it is a shame for women to speak at home in private houses, for women may instruct their families, yea and they may speak also in the Congregation, in time of necessity, if there be none else there, that can or will preach christ, and hereof we have examples. T. C. Pag. 110. Lin. 13. &. Sect. 1 But M. Doctor rises up, and says that a woman in time of necessity, and where there is none other that either can or will preach, may preach the Gospel in the Church. This is strange doctrine, and such as strengtheneth the Anabaptists hands, and savoureth stronger that ways, than any one thing, in all the Admonition, which is so often condemned of Anabaptisme. His first reason to prove it, is that there are examples thereof. When we allege the examples (a) How vain this brag is, hath been showed Tract. 3. of all the churches of the Apostles times, to prove the election of the minister by the Church, and in other cases which are general examples, approved and executed by the Apostles, contrary to no commandment nor institution of God, yea, and as hath been proved according to the commandment of God, M. Doctor giveth us our answer in a word, that examples prove not: now that the question is to make good women's preaching in the Church, examples, I will not say of all churches, but of no one Church, only of a few singular people, not according to the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. commandment of the word of God, but clean contrary to the prescript word of God: I say now examples, and such singular examples are good proofs and strong arguments. Io. Whitgifte. In what point doth he strengthen the Anabaptists? If you could have told I trust it should not have been kept in silence. I have charged the Authors of the Admonition with nothing, but I have showed my author for it, deal you with me in like manner and spare not: otherwise your words do but savour choler. Examples without What force is in examples. precepts make no general or necessary rule: but they sometimes declare what was done, and what may be done extraordinarily, upon like occasion, and the same circumstances, if they be commendable examples. Women were the first that preached Christ's resurrection: A woman was the Math. 28. first that preached Christ in Samaria. Io. 4. and yet undoubtedly none of these did Io. 20. contrary to the prescript word of God. Women may not speak ordinarily in the Io. 4. congregation, nor challenge any such function unto themselves, but upon occasion they may speak as I have said in my Answer. Chap. 3. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 2. Now, if the speech be a true messenger of the heart, I perceive master Doctor is of 〈◊〉. this mind, that he would have women preach in the Church of England at this time: for he cannot deny, and he also confesseth it sometimes that this is the time of necessity: and indeed it must be needs an extreme necessity, that driveth to make one man Pastor of two churches, especially so far distant, that driveth to make men, which are not able to teach, ministers, and divers more things, which are contrary to the word of God: Therefore this being a time of necessity, by M. Doctor's judgement we aught to have women to preach. Besides this he saith if neither none other can or will preach, that then women may preach, but in the most churches of this realm, there is none that either can or will preach, therefore there, and in those churches, women (at the least if they be able) may preach the Gospel, and consequently minister the sacraments. Io. Whitgifte. You wander from the matter and do but seek occasion to quarrel: there is no such necessity in this Church (God be thanked) as M. Doctor speaketh of: for there is none in any place or corner thereof, that be ignorant of Christ, or do not profess the name of Christ: In all places they have the scriptures read unto them, which contain matter sufficient to salvation, and therefore there is no cause why women should take upon them to preach in the congregation: neither doth M. Doctor mean any such thing, as you know very well, but that it is your pleasure to dally. He means In what time a woman may preach Christ. such places where all be infidels, where they have neither herded of Christ, nor have his word, neither yet any other means to come by the knowledge of the same, which is no where in this Church. Chap. 3. the. 5. Division. Admonition. Women that may (h) 1. Co. 14. 34 1. Tim. 2. 11 not speak in a congregation, may yet in time of necessity minister the Sacrament of Baptism, and that in a private house. Answer to the Admonition. Page 186. Sect. ult. You say, women that may not speak in a congregation, may yet in time of necessity, minister the sacrament of baptism, and that in a private house. And to prove that women may not speak in a congregation, you quote. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Ti. 2. whereas you should rather have proved, that women may not in time of necessity, minister baptism, for that is the question, and not the other. Women may speak in the congregation, if necessary occasion do require, as M. Calvin teacheth in his institutions. Chap. 13. Sect. 32. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 3 In the. 187. Page, he citeth M. Caluine in the. 13. Chap. Section. 32. to prove that women may teach: wherein (*) An argument of your ignorance. I marvel, what he means, so to allege M. Caluine continually: he allegeth the. 13. Chap. and no book, as though he had written but one book, and indeed there is no such thing, in no such chapter of any book of his institutions, or many other place throughout his whole works, as I am persuaded. If this fault had been but twice or thrice, I would have thought it had been the Printers, but now that it is continual, and so oftentimes, surely he giveth great suspicion that either some body, hath mocked him with these places, or else he would abuse others, and especially him that should answer his book, setting him to seek that he should never find. Io. Whitgifte. You plead ignorance, of such an edition of M. calvin's institutions, but it is because you cannot answer the place (for other places which I have in like manner alleged, for the which you might have any colour of answering, you have found out at the first: yea and this self same place now in question) but when there is no shift to avoid that which is alleged, than you quarrel with the book, and suspect, that either Pag. 19 Sect.. some body hath mocked him, or that he would abuse others. etc. Not, not, T. C. I thank god I use no such dealing, I do allege nothing which I have not read in the Authors themselves. I study not to encounter the Answer, for either I set down the whole place, or else quote it so, that it may easily be found. Touching this book of institutions of M. calvin's, which I now follow, I have spoken before, and declared why I do use it rather than any other: I have laboured it, noted it, I am acquainted with it, and belike, I read it, before you known whether there was any such book or no: and if there be no such book of M. calvin's institutions, only divided into chapters and sections, and not into books, I will give you all M. calvin's works, because you so complain of lack of books. But to come to the thing itself, M. Caluine in that place speaking of such laws and orders in the Church, as are not perpetual but alterable, as occasion serveth, useth this commandment of S. Paul's touching the silence of women in the Church, for one example to make the matter more manifest: his words be these. Or is the commandment touching her silence such, as it may not be broken without wickedness? Chap. 1 . Sect. 32. And a little after. Et est, ubi loqui non minus opportunum illi sit, quàm alibi tacere, And there is a time and place, when and where it is as fit for her to speak, as else where to hold it peace. These words be plain, and do sufficiently answer all, that you can object to the contrary. Chap. 3. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 4. As for M. calvin's judgement what it is of women's preaching, it may appear by that he 4. Li. institut. cap. 15. Sect. 20. will not by no means, not not in time of necessity (as they term it) suffer either woman, or any lay man to baptize, or minister any sacrament, and therefore not to preach. Io. Whitgifte. I doubt not of M. calvin's judgement in that point, and yet I know other learned and notable men that think otherwise, and namely Zuinglius in his book de baptismo, neither do I go about to teach that women may preach. I tell you only what extreme necessity may extraordinarily permit, without just cause of reprehension. Chap. 3. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. ult. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moses, of Olda, of Anna, and the daughters of Philip the Evangelist, which are all called prophetesses (for I think M. Doctor means these examples) as for them I say, it will be hard for to show that they ever prophesied or taught openly in any public me ng or congregation. But the surer answer is, that although the Lord do sometimes, not being under any law, change the order which he hath set, in raising up certain women, partly to the shame of men and to humble them, partly to let them understand that he can if he would, want their ministery: yet it is not lawful for us to draw that into example and to follow it: or that for as much as he breaketh the law which is not subject unto it, and which he made not for himself, that therefore we may break the law whereunto we be subject and to whom it is given. But we must go in the broad high way of the commandment, and of the ordinary usage of God, in governing his Church, and not in the byepath of certain singular examples, which have been in dtuers ages. And as often as God hath used this extraordinary means of the ministery of women, so often also hath he confirmed their calling either by miracle, or some wonderful issue, or with some other singular note and mark, whereby he hath made their calling otherwise strange and monstrous, most certain and undoubted to all men. Io. Whitgifte. There be other examples also besides these, & yet these be sufficient to prove any thing that I have spoken touching this matter: he that well considereth what is written of Mary the Sister of Moses. Num. 12. or of Olda. 2. Reg. 22. will not doubt whether they spoke openly in the congregation or no: but you will not stick upon this point. And in your second answer I agree with you in this, that we must make no general rule of these particular examples: and that women may not presume to preach in the congregation, except they be extraordinarily called thereunto, and have certain and sure signs of their calling. And surely I muse what you mean to spend so much labour about this matter, wherein there is no controversy. I might say unto you, as it hath pleased you to say unto me, that you have some old rusty notes which you would gladly utter, and you know not how otherwise to make merchandise of them, than by picking such a quarrel to utter them. Chap. 3. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 111. Sect. 1 There is a greater difficulty than M. Doctor mentioneth in the words of S. Paul, where 1. Cor. II he saith, a woman praying or prophesing aught to be veiled, and have her head covered, in which words it seemeth that the Apostle licenseth a woman to prophesy, so that she do it, with her head covered, but to him that shall diligently consider the place, it shall appear that the women of Corinth, did pass the bounds of modesty and of shamefastness, two ways, whereof one was that they came into the congregation contrary to the custom of those countries with their heads and faces uncovered: another was, that they also took upon them to speak in the congregation, both which faults S. Paul condemned, but in their several and proper places. Although therefore speaking against the abuse of uncovering their head, he doth not condemn their boldness in teaching, yet he did not therefore approve it, the confutation whereof he reserved to a more commodious place. Io. Whitgifte. To what end bring you in this saying of S. Paul? I do not remember that I have at any time used it, for any proof: and yet you have objected more than you can well answer: Howbeit, because it pertaineth not to improve any thing that I affirm, I will not examine your answer (and yet not yours but M. Caluins') nor trouble the Reader with frivolous and vain digressions. Chap. 3. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 2. 3. If women do baptize, they baptize in private houses not in the congregation. Surely you are able to mar a good matter for lack of skilful handling. T. C. Pag. 111. Sect. 12. But saith he if women do baptize it is in private houses. I have showed before that they may not baptize at all, therefore not in private houses: besides that that I have in the Reply unto the section in the one and twenty page showed, how it is not lawful, neither to preach the word, nor to minister the sacraments in private corners. Io. Whitgifte. I answer to their argument, and go not about to confirm the baptizing by women. I say this argument followeth not. Saint Paul forbiddeth them to speak in the congregation. Ergo they may not baptize, for they baptize in private houses, not in public places, and Saint Paul doth bid them to speak in private places. Whatsoever yond have replied unto, I have there answered where you have replied: and it is manifest that both the word may be preached, and the sacraments ministered in private places, upon just occasion. Chap. 3. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 111. Sect. 2. 3. 4. For the which matter of not ministering the sacraments in private houses, to the Authors of the Admonition, citing the cleventh Chapter of the first epistle unto the Corinthtans. M. Doctor answereth, that he reproveth the profanation of the supper, by banqueting, and contempt of their brethren, and exhorteth to tarry one for another. But what is this to the purpose? we ask not M. Doctor the interpretation of this place, as we do not of all the rest which he interpreteth, where there is no occasion in the world to interpret The places be interpreted to show how far out of square they be alleged in the Admonition them, being of themselves very clear, and the interpretation which is brought never almost making any thing for the solution of that which is objected: which I desire the Reader to mark throughout his whole book. For what if S. Paul reprove the profanation of the supper of the Lord, doth it follow therefore that he doth not give to understand, that the sacrament should be administered in a common assembly? What if he exhort to tarry one for another, therefore doth he not dehort from celebrating of the sacrament in a private house? And surely me think you cannot be so ignorant as you make yourself, that you should not understand their argument, and therefore I think you do rather dissemble it, as you do in divers other places: for all men may easily perceive, that as Saint Paul opposeth the supper of the Lord, to the common supper: his banquet to the common banquet: so he opposeth there manifestly, the Church and congregation unto the private house: and declareth that as the common supper or banquet, aught to be kept at their houses, so the Lords supper, & his banquet, aught to be celebrated in the congregation. Io. Whitgifte. I think indeed that M. Doctor's interpretations, trouble you shrewdly: for they detect much of your vanity, and make manifest the lack of discretion and learning in the authors of the Admonition. I say lack of discretion and learning, for otherwise to evidently and so often to abuse the scriptures were great dishonesty or rather impiety. If I have miss in interpreting, or wrongfully accused them, why do not you make it known as occasion is offered It stands you upon, for it is much to your dishonesty, and a great discredit to your whole cause. Touching this place of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 11. I say. as I said before: and I add, that he only reproveth such abuses as were used among them in their public assemblies, he speaketh not of celebrating the communion in private places. S. Paul maketh no such opposition in that place as you speak of, neither doth he speak any thing sounding that way, only he reproveth the abuse which was then crept into the supper of the Lord, among the Corinthians, Quòd sacro & spirituali epulo profana symposia permiscerent, idque cum pauperum contumelia, In that they mingled profane Cal. in. 1. Co. 11 banquetts with that holy and spiritual feast, and that with the contumely of the poor, as M▪ Caluine saith. Wherefore it appeareth that either you are disposed to make good whatsoever they have written be it never so absure, or else you wittingly dissemble the true sense and meaning of this place. Chap. 3. the. 11. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 80. Sect. 4. You say in your margin, that Victor Anno. 198. did first appoint that women might baptize. By this you add more credit to the cause, than you are ware of, for Victor was a godly Bishop, and a Victor a good Bishop and martyr. martyr, and the Church at that time was in great purity, not being long after the Apostles time. But truly I can found no such thing in all his decrees, only this he saith, that such as be converted of the Gentiles, to the faith of christ in time of necessity, or at the point of death may be baptized, at any time in any place, whether it be in the sea, or in a river, or in a pond, or in a well, so that they make a confession of their faith: he maketh no mention at all, of any baptizing by women: and therefore you have done your cause great injury. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered here unto. Of ministering the Sacraments in private places. Chap. 4. the first Division. Admonition. Then they were ministered in public assemblies, now in private houses. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 92. Sect. 2. The places of Scripture whereby you prove that Sacraments Baptism m nistred in private places. were then ministered in public assemblies, be taken out of the first of S Mark, and. 1. Cor. II which places of scripture prove, that john did baptise openly, and that the lords Supper was ministered in the public congregation, but neither of them both conclude, that these Sacraments may not also be ministered upon any occasion in private houses: for what sequel is there in this reason, all the c untrey of judea, and they of jerusalem, went out unto him and were Arg non sequitur. baptised of him in the river of jordan, confessing their sins: Ergo baptism may not be ministered upon any occasion in private houses? you may as well conclude, that none aught to be baptised but in the river of jordan, and none but such as be able to confess their sins, and so you should seclude children from Baptism, as the Anabaptists do. T. C. Page. 111. Sect. ult. To the admonition objecting in the ninety and two page, that john baptised openly, amongst the congregation, he answereth and saith, that it may be as well concluded, that we should baptise only in the river of jordane, and none but those that be of age, by which saying he giveth to understand (a) Nay I give you to 〈◊〉 the fondness of the argument. that to baptise in the Church, hath no greater necessity, than the baptizing in jordan, nor it skilleth no more, whether baptism be ministered in the public assembly, than it is necessatie or skilleth, whether we be baptised in the river of jordan, and that the baptism of young infants hath no better grounds than private baptism hath. The latter whereof, (both being absurd) is too-too 〈◊〉 unto the baptism of young infants. For as of our Saviour Christ's preaching in public places, and refusing private places, we do gather that the preaching of the word, aught to be public. Even so of S. john's preaching and baptizing in open meetings, we conclude that both preaching and baptizing, aught to be in public assemblies. Io. Whitgifte. I refer it to the learned Reader to judge whether this be a good argument or no: john baptized openly in the River jordan, Ergo baptism may at no time upon any occasion be ministered in a private house. And if any will judge it to be good, them will I demand of them, why this should not be as good: john did baptize in jordane: Ergo, none aught to be baptised but in the river jordane. Or this. john baptised such as confessed their sins, Ergo none must be baptized, but such as are able to make a confession of their sins. This is that unskilful kinte of reasoning, that Zuinglius so oft reproveth the Anabaptistes for, and he calleth it an argument à facto ad ius. I do not in any respect speak against baptizing in the Church, but do greatly commend it, as a thing most convenient: but I do not so tie the Sacrament to the place, or public congregation, that I make it of the necessity of the Sacrament, so that it may not upon any occasion be ministered in a private house. I compare not baptizing in the Church, and in the river jordane together: neither do I say that baptizing of young infants hath no better grounds than private baptism hath: but I disallow this kind of proof, which the A monition useth: and I see not why it is not of like force in all other the circumstances of that place, and those examples that I have alleged. Christ preached both privately and publicly: in the temple, and in private families: in great assemblies, and severally to his own disciples, and at all times as occasion served: and therefore you can not conclude by the example of Christ, that the preaching of the Gospel, aught only to be public in the open congregation, and at no time private upon any occasion. Chap. 4. the. 2. Division. T. C. Page. 112. Sect. 1 And although to some one action there concur divers things, which partly are not to be followed at all, partly are indifferent to be followed or not followed, yet neither the unlawfulness of the one to be followed, nor the indifferency of the other can hinder, but there are some other things in the same action necessary to be followed, which may be considered both of the place of the Acts, touching the election, where I have (a) It is said, but not proved. proved some things there mentioned to be necessary to be done in elections, although other some be not convenient nor fit for us to follow. And I have showed it also by M. Caluine, which M. Doctor allcadgeth for himself, and by Cyprian (b) A digression from the matter to the person. whose authority he would be loath to reject I am sure, lest he should loose the opinion of his studiousness of the old writers, which he hunteth so diligently after in this book, & whereof he maketh the authors of the Admonition so great contemners. And it is not hard to show the same in twenty places more, as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke, where as there are divers things not to be followed of the ministers now, other things indifferent to be followed, so are there also other things that be as well commanded to all the ministers that now are, as they were then either to the. 12. or. 70. disciples. Io. Whitgifte. And of those circumstances whereof there is no commandment, how prove you which be indifferent, which be unlawful or not convenient to be followed, which necessary? why is it not as necessary by this example of john, that they should be baptised in joroane, or that they should confess their sins, before they be baptised, as it is that they should be publicly baptized? If you take upon you to interpret without authority and ground ofscripture, it is meet that you should show very good and substantial reason. I demand the like touching the places alleged out of the Acts, where you reteyn what you list, refuse what you list, altar as you list, as though you were lord over the Scripture, and had omnia iura tam divina quàm humana in scrinio pectoris, all laws as well divine as human in the coffer of your breast, like to the Pope. But to these places of the Acts I have answered in their due place. Your ss ffes make not your cause one whit the better. Of twenty places you recite not one: And of divers things some indifferent, some not to be followed, other some commanded to all ministers spoken to the twelve or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none: speaking without ground or reason is but prattling. I know that in one action there be divers circumstances, of divers conditions and natures, but if any of them be necessary at all times to be obseived, the Necessary cir cumstances are commanded. same is contained in some commandment in the Scriptures, and therefore well saith Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius, is then strong, when as we are able to show, that that which is done, is done according to some rule or commandment. Now if you can show me either rule or commandment in scripture, that upon no occasion we may preach or baptize in private families, I yield unto you. What examples do prove without commandment. But if you can not this do, your examples prove what was then done, and what in the like cause may be done now, but they make not any general and perpetual rule. Now touching these and such like circumstances in my opinion, M, Zuinglius in his book de baptismo, maketh a full resolution, which may satisfy any reasonable Zuinglius. man. His words be these: There is here three errors about circumstances, that is, the elements of the world. The first is of the time, for they thought that baptism was not rightly administered, except it were in the first day: for the time is of no great weight, so that we take diligent heed of this, that none rashly or negligently differre it, longer than is convenient, for by this occasion, it may come to pass, that the baptism of children might be taken away. another error is touching the circumstance of the person: for they thought that baptism could not be administered of no other than of a priest: when as notwithstanding every man may minister it, even a woman, if necessity require: the third error is in the circumstance of the place, because it is not necessary that the insant should only be baptised in the Church. Chap. 4. the. 3. Division. Answero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptism was ministered in Cornelius house, Acts. 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacraments. To the. 1. Cor. II it is answered before. Surely this church of England Baptism an house. doth not permit the sacraments to be ministered in private places, except there be a congregation, and then not usually, but only in certain cases. T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1 another reason he addeth there, that S. Peter baptised in Cornelius house. But M. Doctor maketh not the best choice of his arguments. For S. Paul's baptizing in the house of the jailer, had been more fit for him, for unto his place it may be easily answered, that Cornelius having so great a family, as it is like he had, and besides that divers soldiers underneath him, and further his friends and his acquaintance which he had called, had a competent number, and as many as would make a congregation, and as could co mmodiously be preached unto in one place. But the answer to both these examples, and other such like, as that S. Paul baptised in the house of Stephana is easy. For there being persecutions at that time, so that it was not safe neither for the minister nor for the people to be seen, it was meet that they should do it in houses, which otherwise they would have done in open places: and then those houses which receive the congregation, are not as I have showed for the time to be counted private houses: and further in places where the gospel hath not been received, nor no church gathered, but one only household, embracing the Gospel, I say in such a case, and especially in the time of persecution, where should the Ministers preach, or minister the Sacraments, more conveniently than in that house where those professors of the gospel be? now to draw this into our churches, which may safely come into open places, and where the church and congregation standeth of divers houscholdes, is a token of great want of judgement, in shuffeling those things together, which for the great diversity of their natures will not be mingled. Io. Whitgifte. The example of Peter's baptizing in Cornelius house, is sufficient to prove that then it was lawful to baptise in private families: the example of Paul baptizing the jailor and his family, proveth the same: But it ministereth a more ready answer to a quarreler, because Paul then being prisoner, had not such liberty to make cheise of his place, as Peter had. But they are both very fit examples for my purpose, the bigness of Cornelius family or the smallness, is not material to this question, for we speak of the place, not of the people. And whereas you say, that in Cornelius house, there was a competent number, and as many as would make a congregation, I answer that so it is with us when baptism is ministered in private families: for wheresoever Math. 18, two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ, there is a congregation. To your second answer of the difference of time, because that was in time of persecution. etc. I say that as persecution was then a cause why baptism as usually mistred in private houses, so necessity is now that cause, why the same is ministered some times in private families. Neither do I maintain or allow the administering of the sacraments in private families, to be usual or without urgent cause, but only upon extreme necessity of sickness, peril of death & such like. In which cases as never any learned man misliked ministering of the sacraments in such places, so are not you able to show, either scripture, doctor or reason to that contrary, & whatsoever you say of the tune of persecution touching the matter, that same may be said of the time of necessity also. But here I would have the Reader to note, that you are now driven to confess a difference in the Church betwixt the time of persecution, and the time of prosperity, and that to be convenient in the one, which is not convenient for the other: which distinction and diversity of times, you would not before acknowledge to make any difference in the election of ministers, and government of the Church, and yet the case is all one. Chap. 4. the. 4. Division. Admonition. They should first prove that private Communion. etc. are agreeable to the written word of god Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. If you mean by private Communion, the Communion ministered to Of the communion ministered in private places. one alone, there is no such allowed in the book of Common prayers, but if you call it private, because it is ministered sometimes in private houses to sick people: Then have we the example of Christ, who ministered the Supper in a private house, and inner parlour Mark. 14. Luke. 22. Math. 26. we have also the example of the Apostles themselves, who did minister the supper in private houses, especially if that place be understanded of the supper, which is in the second of the Acts, and before alleged of you to prove that common and usual bread aught to be in the Supper. Likewise of the primitive church, as appeareth in the second apology of justinus Martyr, Tertull. de Corona militis, and others. T. C. Page. 112. Sect. 2. And in the page. 152. he bringeth other reasons to prove that the Sacraments may be ministered in a private house, whereof the first is, that our Saviour Christ celebrated his Supper in a private house, and in an inner parlour, the reason whereof is easily to be known, for the law of God ordained, that every householder in his house should eat the passouer with his own family. If it were so great, as that they might well eat up a whole lamb. Io. Whitgifte. That is a reason why Christ did eat the passouer in a private house: but it is no reason why he did celebrated his Supper there in like manner. Wherefore my reason holdeth as yet. Chap. 4. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 3 Our saviour Christ therefore with his household, observeth this law, and for because he would declare, that the passouer had his end, and that his holy Sacrament should come in place thereof, he doth forthwith celebrated his supper in the same place, which if he had not done, neither could he have done it at all, the hour of his apprehension then approaching, neither should it so lively have appeared, that either the passouer was abolished, or that the Supper came in place of it, being celebrated both at an other time, and in an other place. Io. Whitgifte. Our Saviour Christ's example of instituting and ministering his supper in a private family, giving afterward no commandment to the contrary, is a manifest proof that the place is not of the substance of the sacrament, and that upon occasion it may be ministered in a private house. You show a reason why christ at that Unnecessary proof. time, and in that place did minister his Supper, but you show no reason why we may not in like manner upon necessary occasion, celebrated the Communion in the like place. Chap. 4. the. 6. diusion. T. C. pag. 112. sect. ult. For the celebrating of the Supper in houses in the Apostles times, and in justinus and tertullian's times, which were times of persecution, I have spoken before, where also I declared, that such houses for the time are not private but public. Io. Whitgifte. This answer is as fit for me, as it is for you, for admit that the Sacraments may be administered in private families in the case of necessity, and I ask no m●●●. For if persecution be a necessary cause, why is not sickness and peril of d●●th so in like manner? again, if a private house be no private but a public place, when for the fear of persecution the Sacraments be ministered in it, why is it not so likewise, when they be there ministered for extremity of sickness and fear of death the reason is all one, and the case of necessity like: and therefore you have not said any thing against me, but with me. Chap. 4. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 1 And these are his reasons, where with he would prove, that the sacraments, and therefore also the sacrament of Baptism may be ministered in a private house. Io. Whitgifte. And these reasons have you confirmed rather than confuted, but to the contrary Circumcision in private houses. you have showed no reason at all, and therefore these stand in full force, to the which I might add, that circumcision was celebrated in private families, as M. Caluine truly gathereth, upon the. 58. verse of the first chapter of Luke, which is a better argument to prove that the Sacraments may be ministered in private places, than you have showed any to the contrary. ¶ The Sacraments ministered by other than Ministers. Chap. 5. The first Division. Admonition. Then by ministers (w) Mat. 28. 19 1. Cor. 4. 1 only, now by Midwyves', and Deacons equally. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 93. Sect. 2. That then the Sacraments were ministered only by ministers, you Whether any may minister the sacraments besides the minister. allege the. 28. of Math. which place is answered before. Likewise. 1. Cor 4. Let a man so think of us as of the ministers of Christ, & disposers of the mysteries of God. Here is not one word for your purpose, except you take mysteries for sacraments, which if you do, you are much What mysteries be. deceived: for by the word mysteries here, he understandeth the word of God, and gospel of Christ, as all learned writers do interpret it. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered to the unapt allegation of the. 1. Cor. 4. Chap. 5. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 93. Sect. 2. We read in the eight of the Acts, that Philip a Deacon did baptise: Philip deacon baptized. Moses' wife 〈◊〉 circumcise we read also, that Moses' wife did circumcise. But where doth this Church of England allow any woman to baptise, or deacon to celebrated the lords Supper? And if it did, the dignity of the Sacraments do not depend upon the man, be he minister or not minister, be he good or evil. Let every one take heed, that they do not usurp that authority whereunto they be not called. T. C. P ag. 113. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He hath certain other (*) Untruth, for I use no reasons to that end. to prove that women may baptise, whereof the first is in the. 93. page, and that is that Sephora Moses wife, circumcised her child, whereunto I have answered partly before, that particular examples especially contrary, to general rules, are not to be followed, and will further answer if I first admonish the Reader, whereupon this baptism of midwives, and in private houses rose, that when we know of how rotten a stock it came, the fruit itself may be more loathsome unto us. It first therefore rose upon a false interpretation of the place of S. john. V nlesse a man be born again of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. 3. john. Where certain do interpret the word water, for the material and elemental water, wherewith men are washed, when as our saviour Christ taketh water there, by a translation or borrowed speech, for the spirit of God, the effect whereof it shadoweth out. For even as in another place by the fire and spirit, he means nothing but the spirit of God, which purgeth and purifieth as the 3. Math. fire doth: so in this place, by the water and the spirit, he means nothing else but the spirit of God, which cleanseth the filth of sin, and cooleth the broiling heat of an unquiet conscience, as water washeth the thing which is foul, and quencheth the heat of the fire. Secondarily, this error came by a false and unnecessary conclusion drawn of that place. For although the scripture should say, that none can be saved, but those which have the spirit of God, and are baptized with material and elemental water, yet aught it to be understanded of those which can conveniently and orderly be brought to baptism, as the Scripture saying, that who so doth not believe the gospel, is john. 3. already condemned, means this sentence of those which can hear the gospel, and have discretion to understand it, when they hear it, and cannot here shut under this condemnation, either those that be born deaf, and so remain, or little infants, or natural fools that have no wit to conceive what is preached. And hereupon S. Augustine concludeth, that all not baptised are condemned, which is as absurdly 106. Epist. ad Bonifac. in lib. de meritis & remissi. pec cat. 1. ca 4 concluded of him, as that of our saviour Christ's words: except one eat the flesh of the son of man, he hath not life, he concludeth, that whatsoever he be which receiveth not the Sacrament of the Supper, is damned. Upon this false conclusion of S. Augustine, hath risen this profanation of the sacrament of baptism, in being ministered in private houses, and by women or lay men, as also upon his other absurd conclusion, sprung a horrible abuse of the Lords supper, whilst they did thrust the bread and wine, into young infant's mouths, for that men were persuaded, that otherwise if their children should die, before they were baptized, or had received the supper, that they were damned for ever. And what better token can there be, that this was the cause of this blind baptism, than that the Papists, from whom this baptism by women is translated, were of the same judgement, and for that cause brought in their baptism by women. Hereunto may be added another cause, which is, that as (when the Church began not only to decline, but to fall away from the sincerity of religion) it borrowed a number of other profanations of the heathen: so also it borrowed this. For as the heathen had women priests, so it would have also her women priests, and Li. 3. ca 9 that this was another occasion of bringing in the baptism by women, it appeareth by your Clement, if he can speak any truth. Io. Whitgifte. It is untrue that I use any reasons at all to prove, that women may baptize: only I bring this and such like examples to improve this general assertion of the Admonition, that then sacraments were ministrred by ministers only, and not by midwives or deacons. For Deacons than did baptize, and Moses wife long before that time did circumcise. I know that particular examples make no general rules: but you are not ignorant that Particular examples may sometimes be followed. particular examples may in the like cases and circumstances be followed, when there is no rule to the contrary. The place in the. 3. of john by you alleged hath divers interpretations, and the most part of the ancient writers, do take water in that place, for material and elemental water: as Augustine, Chrisostome, Ambrose, cyril, and sundry others, even as Chr. in. 3. Io. 3. lib. de spirit. sanct. lib. 2. de Abrabam patriar. Cyri. in. 3. Io. many of the ancient fathers, as I have read upon that text. But because I do mislike as much as you the opinion of those that think infants to be condemned, which are not baptised, therefore I will not contend with you, either in the interpretation of that place, or in any other thing that you have spoken touching this error: only this I say, that you must take heed, lest in avoiding an error, you fall into an heresy, and give place to Anabaptistes, in not baptizing infants. And I know not what you can say against private baptism, in that case of necessity, which they do not in like manner allege against the baptizing of young Infants. Master Caluine in his Introduction Aduersus Anabap. though he allow not this error, which condemneth children not baptised, yet doth he approve and allow the necessity of baptizing infants: His words be these. But some man will say, that the grace of God towards us, is not diminished Caluine vers 〈◊〉. if infants be not admitted to Baptism, so that it be not denied, that God is as merciful unto them as unto the children of the jews, but I will show that it is much diminished: for we must esteem the grace of God, especially by the declaration thereof which he maketh both by his word and Sacraments. Seeing therefore Baptism is now ordained, that the promise of salvation may be sealed in our bodies, as it was in times passed in the people of the jews: Christians should be deprived of a singular consolation, if their children should be secluded from this confirmation, which all the faithful have at all times enjoyed, that they should have the visible sign, whereby the Lord doth show and witness that he receiveth their children into the Communion and fellowship of the Church. If the Authors of the Admonition say truly, that Victor who lived Anno. 198. did first appoint that women might baptize, then came it neither from the Papists, nor yet from the Gentiles. But whensoever this began, or from whom soever it was taken, the baptizing of infants hath always been thought necessary in the Church, by all such, as have not divided themselves by any Schism or Heresy from the same. Chap. 5. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4. Now I return to the example of Sephora, and say that the unlawfulness of that fact doth appear sufficiently, in that she did it, (*) Mose by reason of sickness was not able to do it himself. before her husband Moses, which was a Prophet of the Lord, and (a) This is contrary to that he hath, Pag. 17 . Sect. 1 to whom that office of circumcision did appertain: so that unless M. Doctor would have midwives baptize in the presence of the Bishop, or the minister, there is no cause why he should allege this place, besides that she did cut of the fore skin of the infant not of mind to obey the commandment of God, or for the salvation of the child, but in a choler only, to the end that her husband might be eased, and have release: which mind appeareth in her, both by her words, and by casting away in anger, the foreskin which she had cut of. And if it be said, that the event declared that the act pleased God, because that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recovered of his sickness, I have showed before, how if we measure things by the event, we shall oftentimes justify the wicked, and take the righteousness of the righteous from them. Io. Whitgifte. In the. 170. Page of your book, you say that God took the priesthood from Moses, Pag. 170. Sect. 1 and gave it to Aaron, and now you seem to affirm the contrary in saying, that Moses was a Prophet of the Lord, to whom that office of circumcision did appertain, for hereby you do insinuate that Moses was a Priest. Moreover, Moses at this time was extremely sick, and therefore could not execute that office himself? And in the Geneva Bible, there is this note: that it was extraordinary, for Moses was sore sick, and God even then required it. Sephora therefore did circumcise in a point of extremity Baptism true though not ordinarily ministered. and not wilfully or of purpose: & that circumcision was a true circumcision, though it were not done ordinarily: even so Baptism is true Baptism, though it be sometimes ministered by such, as be not ordinary ministers. The event doth oftentimes declare the thing, Exitus acta probat, though not necessarily: but this is certain that these events are better reasons to justify the fact, than you can she we any out of that place to the contrary. Chap. 5. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. ult. & Pag. 114. Sect. 1 another reason he hath which is, that the dignity of the sacraments doth not depend upon the man, whether he be minister or no minister, good or evil. In deed upon this point whether he be good or an evil minister, it dependeth not, but on this point whether he be a minister or not, dependeth not only the dignity, but also (a) A strange as sertion avouched without proof. the being of the Sacrament, so that I take the baptism of women, to be no more the holy Sacrament of baptism, than I take any other daily or ordinary washing of the child, neither let any man think that I have at unwares slipped into this asseveration, or that I have forgotten, that soon after the times of the Apostles, it was the use of certain Churches, that Deacons should baptise in the time of necessity (as they call it) for as for the Baptism of Deacons, I hold it to be lawful, for because although (as it is with us) they give him the name of Deacon, (*) Urge hoc etc. yet in deed he is as he then was in the elder times a minister, and not a Deacon. And although he did then provide for the poor, and so had two functions (which was not meet) yet his office aught to be esteemed, of the principal part of his function, which was preaching and ministering of the Sacraments, in certain cases. And as for the baptizing by lay men, considering that it is not only against the word of God, but also founded upon a false ground, and upon an imagined necessity (which is none in deed) it moveth me nothing at all, although it be very ancient, for so much as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chief of the institution and word of God, which is the form, and as it were the life of the sacrament, of which institution this is one, and of the chief parts, that it should be celebrated by a minister. Io. Whitgifte. If this be true and sound doctrine, then is there many that go under the name The inconvenience of the Repliers doctrine. of Christians, which were never baptised: for besides diverse that have been baptised by women, some there are, and not a few, that have been baptised by such as have taken upon them the ministery, not being thereunto either ordinarily, or extraordinarily called: and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proved himself to be no Christian. And surely if you peruse all the writings of the ancient Fathers, and of the The assertion hath no sufficient patrons. late writers in like manner. I believe that you shall not find the like proposition affirmed, for although divers, both old and new, do not allow that Lay men should be suffered to baptize, yet is there none of them (such only excepted, as err in rebaptisation) that think the being of the sacrament so to depend upon the minister, that Baptism by lay men. Tertull. Ambrose. Jerome. Augustine. Zuinglius. it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister. Tertull. in his book De Baptismo saith, That lay men may baptize. Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth, that in the beginning it was lawful for all men to baptize. Jerome, ad Luciferianos affirmeth, that it is lawful for Say men to baptize if necessity do require. And hereunto also doth S. Augustine agree, in his 2. Book, against the Epistle of Parmenian, the. 13. Chapter. M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleged: Writeth that the second error in the circumstances of Baptism is about the person, because they think that Baptism can not be given of any but of a Priest only, whereas if necessity do require any man may do it. And a little after he sayeth, That this and such like circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia, Not of the being of the Sacrament. Which is directly contrary to your assertion. M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth sufficiently Caluine. confute this error in these words: Now if it be true that we have set down, the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hand, by whom it is ministered, but as it were of the hand of God, from whom it certainly cometh: hereof we may gather, that nothing is added or taken from the dignity of it, by him by whom it is ministered. And therefore among men if an Epistle be sent, so that the hand and seal be known, it skilleth not who or what manner of person carrieth it: even so it is sufficient for us, to know the hand and seal of the Lord in his Sacraments, by whomsoever they be delivered. Hereby is the error of the Donatists confuted, who measured the virtue and worthiness of the Sacrament by the worthiness of the minister. Such be now a days our Anabaptistes, which deny us to be rightly baptised, because we were baptised by wicked and idolatrous people in the Popos Church. And therefore they furiously urge rebaptisation: against whose folly we shall sufficiently be defended, if we think that we were baptized not in the name of any man, but in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the holy Ghost, and therefore baptism not to be of man but of God, by whom soever it be ministered. Haec Calvinus. Undoubtedly if this your assertion were true there had need be some general rebaptisation throughout all Christendom, as well of men as of children, for certain it is, that that Sacrament hath been ministered to many by such, as be in no degree of the ministery. Your opinion of a Deacon, that he should nothing differ from a minister, is very strange, and unheard of in any writer old or new. Show any author, any example, any Scripture, that proveth or alloweth it: Diaconus and Presbyter or Sacerdos be distinct in all Authors. But I know wherefore this is affirmed of you, even to stop a gap, but it will not serve. I will say no more: the opinion is very absurd and unlearned, contrary to the Scriptures, and all learned Authors. Neither do you show any reason of your Paradox, which you aught to do, seeing it is Contra opinionem omnium, contrary to all men's opinions, not one excepted. Against baptizing by lay men in time of necessity you have no Scripture. But Baptism by Lay men not condemned us Scripture. for the allowing of it, you have the authority of learned men, even such as were far from the opinion of Augustine in condemning infants not baptised, as namely Zuinglius, who also in the place before recited, sufficiently answered, whatsoever is here by you barely without any kind of proof set down. You have also examples thereof in Ecclesiastical histories, Socrates Lib. 1. cap. Examples of baptism by lay men. 14. and Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 17. write: That Alexander Bishop of Alexandria together with the rest of the Clergy determined that baptism which was ministered by Athanasius being Socrates. but a child, to certain other children, to be true baptism, and not to be itterated, because Sozomen. after examination he was found to have used the words, and right form of baptism. hanasius being a child baptized. Whereby it is plain, that the opinion of the Church at that time was, the minister not to be of the substance or being of baptism. There is recited a story in the Centuries, Cent. 2. cap. 6. of a jew baptised in the case of necessity by Say men, and with sand, because there was no water. afterward the Bishop of Alexandria being demanded of the matter, De sententia Ecclesiae respondit, baptizatum esse judaeum si modò aqua denuò perfunderetur, He answered by the judgement of the Church, that the jew was baptised, if so be he were again sprinkled with water. This argueth that the Church then made no doubt in the respect of the people that ministered this Baptism, but only because there lacked water. This story is cited out of Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 37. and alleged by the Authors of the Centuries, to prove the simplicity of the Church at that time, about Baptism, neither do they in any respect show any misliking of it. And surely I know not wherein this opinion of yours doth differ from the Donatists, or Anabaptistes, except it be in this, that you speak of Say men, and they of Ministers. And whereas you say, that the minister is one of the chief parts, and as it were of the The Replier in so weighty a matter useth no proofs. life of the Sacrament: In so weighty a cause, and great a matter, it had been well if you had used some authority of Scripture or testimony of learned Author: for so far as I can read, the opinion of all learned men is, that the essential form, and as it were the life of Baptism, is to baptize in the name of the Father, of the Son, The essential point of baptism. and of the holy Ghost, which form being observed, the Sacrament remaineth in full force and strength of whom soever it be ministered, or howsoever by Ceremonies or other additions it is corrupted. This I am sure is the answer of Zuinglius, both in his book De Baptismo, and in his Elench. contra Anabap. to the Anabaptists, who would have them all to be rebaptized that have been baptized in the Pope's Church. And the same is the opinion of M. Caluine in the place before recited, and of all other learned men that I have red. And certainly if the boing of the Sacrament depended upon man in any respect, The force of baptism 〈◊〉 not upon 〈◊〉 but upon God. 1. Cor. 3. Confusion & disorder is not maintained. we were but in a miserable case, for we should be always in doubt whether we were rightly baptised or no: but it is most true, that the force & strength of the Sacrament, is not in the man be he minister or not minister, be he good or evil, but in God himself, in his spirit, in his free & effectual operation. And therefore sayeth S. Paul, What is Paul, what is Apollo, etc. This I speak not to bring confusion into the Church (for as I said before, let men take heed that they usurp not an office, whereunto they be not called, for God will call them to an account for so doing) but to teach a truth, to take a yoke of doubtfulness from men's consciences, and to resist an error, not much differing from Donatisme and Anabaptisme. Chap. 5. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page 114. Sect. 1 For although part of the institution, in that the name of the holy Trinity is called upon, be observed: yet if the whole institution be not, it is no more a Sacrament, than the Papists communion was, which celebrating it in one kind, took a part of the institution, and left the other. Io. Whitgifte. If you can show as manifest Scripture that the minister is of the substance of Baptism, as I can do that the cup is one of the essential parts of the supper, than it is something that you say: but if there be no likelihood betwixt the one and the other, than can you not want just reprehension, for so confidently avouching that which you cannot prove. The distribution of the cup in the lords supper, is commanded in manifest and express words as a part of the Supper, but you cannot show me the like commandment that only a minister shall celebrated Baptism, or else that it is no Baptism. We know that circumcision, the figure of Baptism, was ministered sometimes by such as were no Priests: and yet right and true circumcision. Chap. 5. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1 And for as much as S. Paul saith that a man cannot preach which is not sent, (*) This is added to the text. not not Rom. 10. although he speak the words of the scripture and interpret them, so I cannot see how a man can baptize, unless that he be sent to that end, although he pour water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministry of baptism. Io. Whitgifte. S. 〈◊〉 in that 10. chapped. to the Rom. speaketh of the extraordinary calling to the office of preaching, so sayeth M. Martyr in his Commentaries, upon this place. Martyr. And although Paul entreateth in this place of calling, and sending, and this is as I said ordinary and extraordinary: there is no doubt but that he now speaketh of the extraordinary calling, etc. And M. Caluine likewise upon the same place sayeth, that Paul Caluine. doth not there speak, De legitima cuius que vocatione, of the lawful calling of every man. Wherefore if you will ground any such reason upon this place, it must be thus: S. Paul saith that a man cannot preach which is not sent, and he means of an extraordinary sending, therefore no man may preach unless he be extraordinarily called thereunto: and so consequently not minister baptism, except he be called in like manner. If you will reason thus, then do you confirm the baptizing by lay men, who do it not ordinarily but extraordinarily upon necessity. S. Paul doth not say, that a man cannot preach which is not sent, not not although he The Replier addeth to the text, and for what purpose. speaketh the words of the scripture, and interpret them. These words be so added by you, that the simple and ignorant, may think they be the words of S. Paul. He that speaketh the words of the scripture, and doth interpret them, preacheth, though he be not there unto called, and it is the true word of God he preacheth, if he truly interpret, but he intrudeth himself into a vocation where unto he is not called, and therefore Usurpers both in preaching and ministering the Sacraments offend God. offendeth God: but that doth derogate nothing from the word preached. The same reason is of the administration of the Sacraments, for as the word of God, is the word of God, by whom so ever it be preached minister or other: so is the Sacrament of Baptism, true baptism by whom soever it be celebrated: the usurper of the office hath to answer for his intrusion, but the Sacrament is not thereby defiled. It is no hard matter to show that in the primitive Church, lay men were suff d Lay men so fred to preach. Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 20. to preach: you know that Euseb. sayeth that Origene being a lay man was sent into Arabia to preach the Gospel which he also did, both before & after in the Church of Alexandria, and likewise in Caesarea. And although Demetrius then Bishop of Alexandria, found fault that Origene being a lay man should preach in the presence of Bishops at Caesarea. Yet is it manifest that he allowed say men to preach, if Bishops were not present. And in the same chapped. by divers examples it is showed (as of Euelpis at Laranda, of Paulinus at Iconium, of Theodorus at Synada) that the custom of the Churches both then and before that time was, that lay men might preach even in the presence of Bishops, so that you have erred both in applying the place of S. Paul, and in saying that lay men may not preach the word upon occasion, and so consequently baptize. Chap. 5. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1 I know there be divers (*) The more to blame you are without proo to enter into such difficulties. difficulties in this question, and therefore I was sooth to enter into it, but that the Answerer setteth down so considently, that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptism whether he be minister or no minister, and so whether one have a calling or no calling, wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by his often handling of one thing confound his reader, but himself also, and forgetteth that he is in an other question, than which is propounded. For although it should be graunced him, that the sacrament doth not depend upon that, yet hath he not that (a) This is no intended. which he would have, that women may baptize for it is one thing to say the baptism which is ministered by women is good and effectual, and an other thing to say, that it is lawful for women to minister baptism. For there is no man doubteth but that the baptism which is ministered by an heretical minister is effectual, and yet I think that M. Doctor will not say, that therefore an heretical minister may baptize, and that it is lawful for Herctikes to baptize in the Church. And therefore men must not only take heed (as M. Doctor saith) that they usurp not, that which they are not called unto, but they must also take heed, that they receive not functions and charges upon them, whereof they are not capable, although they be thereunto called. Io. Whitgifte. There are more difficulties in this question than you can well determine: and therefore it had been best, either not to have spoken of it at all, or else to have handled it more substantially: but the scarcity of matter and reasons, argueth the weakness and faintness of the cause. I pass over your words: I go not about to prove that women may baptize, only I withstand this error, that the Substance and being of the Sacraments dependeth upon the man in any respect. I say that baptism ministered Baptism true baptism though vulawfully ministered. by women is true Baptism, though it be not lawful for women to baptize, as the baptism also ministered by heretics is true baptism, though they be usurpers of that office. And the same, S. Augustine affirmeth of baptism by lay men in the place August. lib. 2. contr. Epist. Parmea. ca 13. before alleged: Although (sayeth he) it be usurped without necessity, and is given of any man to any man, that which is given cannot be said not to be given, although it may be rightly said not to be rightly given. And I further say, that if the baptisime, ministered by heretical ministers, which be no members of the Church, be notwithstanding good and effectual, I see no cause why it should not be so rather, if it be ministered by lay men, which are members and parts of the Church. Chap. 5. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. M. Bucer in his censure upon the Communion book, speaking of Bucer. the order appointed in the same for private Baptism, writeth thus. In this constitution all things are godly appointed, I would to God they Differing of baptism not expedient. were so observed, and especially this that the baptism of infants be not differred, for thereby is a door opened unto the Devil, to bring in a contempt of baptism, and so of our whole redemption, and communion of Christ which through the sect of Anabaptistes, hath to much prevailed with many. T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. In the 153. page, M. Bucers' censure upon the communion book is cited, for the allowance of that it hath touching private baptism, and consequently of the baptism by women. It may be, that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath (*) This is but gross courtesy. other gross absurdities, so he may have that. But it had been for the credit of your cause, if you had showed that out of those writings, which are published & known to be his, & not out of those, whereof men may doubt, whether ever he written any such or no: And if he written, whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came. And if you would take any advantage of M. Bucers' testimony, considering that a witness is a public person, you should have brought him out of your study into the stationer's shop, where he might have been common to others, as well as to you, whereby his stile and manner of writing as it were by his gestures, and countenances, and by those things that go before, and come after, as it were by his head, and by his fecte, we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. Io. Whitgifte. It is very gross courtesy that you show to so worthy and learned a man: modesty The reverence which T. C. giveth to learned men. and charity would not have been so rash as to answer that which he well speaketh, in opprobriously objecting unto him his other errors, which you call gross absurdities. But this is the reverence that you give to all learning, and learned men, that are contrary to your opinions. I have sometimes herded a Papist burst out into this rage, against M. Bucer being pressed with his authority: But you are the first professor of the Gospel, that ever I heard so churlishly to use so reverent, so learned, so painful, so sound a father, being also an earnest and zealous professor. It causeth me the less to regard what you speak of me, when I hear such bitterness against all other, be they never so zealous and excellent. Well Bucers reasons (which touch the quick) would have been reasonably answered without spite: and you should rather have considered them, than the author. There is nothing in these words by him affirmed, which is not in as plain terms avouched by Zuinglius, in the words before recited. The book of M. Bucers' is forth coming to be showed, and he affirmeth nothing therein contrary to his books published: he had more special occasion here offered to speak both of this and other matters now in controversy, and therefore the more he is to be credited. Chap. 5. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. For although I will not say but that this may be Bucers doing, yet it seemeth very strange, that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned writers now, but also contrary to all learned antiquity, and contrary to the practice of the Church, whilst there was any tolerable estate, allow of women's baptizing. (a) De virgin. velan. Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted to a woman to speak in the Church, nor to teach or to baptise, nor to do any work of a man, much less of a minister. (b) Lib. de Baptis. And in an other place, although he do permit it to be done by Say men, in the time of necessity (as it is termed) yet he giveth not that licence to the woman. (c) Epiph. li. 1. contra haeres. Epiphanius upbraideth Martion that he suffered women to baptize. And (d) Lib. . Vbi de Phry gib. & Priscil. in an other book he derideth them that they made women Bishops. And (e) Lib. 3. in an other book he sayeth, it was not granted unto the holy mother of Christ to baptize her Son. Io. Whitgifte. M. Bucer speaketh not one word in this place of baptizing by women: but of private Baptism, which neither Tertullian, nor Epiphanius in these places by you alleged do disallow. Chap. 5. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 6. 1. Li. de merit. & remis. peccat. 24. cap. Contra E pissed. Parmen. lib. 2. 13. cap. Augustine although he were of that mind, that children could not be saved without baptism, An untruth. yet in the time of necessity (as it is called) he doth not allow either of baptism in private houses, or by women, but when there was danger the women hasted to carry the children unto the Church, and although he do seem to allow of the baptism of a Lay man, in the time of necessity, yet there also he mentioneth not women's baptism. And further he doubteth whether the child should be baptized again, which was baptized by a lay man. Io. Whitgifte. Where doth S. Augustine disallow baptizing by women, or in private houses? he uttereth no such thing in any of the places quoted in the margente. Will you still sergeant? is there no end with you of falsifying? In his second book contra Epistolam Parmeniani, Cap. 13. he doth not only say that a lay man may baptize in the time of necessity, but he also addeth, that if it be ministered without necessity, yet notwithstanding that it is baptism: as appeareth in these words (as I have before said) But although it be usurped (he means baptism by lay men) without necessity, Aug. lib. 2. contra Epist. Parm. cap. 13. and is given of any man to any man, that which is given can not be said not to be given, although it may be rightly said, that it is not lawfully given. And he doth make the same manifest by two pretty similitudes following, which I omit for to avoid tediousness. The learned Reader may in that place of Augustine soon perceive, what an error this is to say, that the Minister is of the substance and being of the Sacrament: neither doth he in either of the places, either disallow baptism by women, or in private houses, as you affirm, but ad Fortunatum he saith thus: In Aug. ad Fortunatum. necessity when the Bishops or Priests, or any other minister can not be found, and the danger of him that requireth doth constrain, lest he should depart this life without this sacrament, we have herded, that even lay men have given the sacrament that they have received. Chap. 5. the. 11. Division. T. C. Page. 115. Lin. 12. And in the fourth Council of Carthage it is simply decreed that a woman ought not to Tom. 1. con. ca 100 baptize. Io. Whitgifte. This Canon in Gratian the conse. Disti. 4. is thus reported: Mulier quamuis docta & sancta, viros in comuentu docere, vel aliquos baptizare non praesumat, nisi necessitate cogent Let not a woman, although learned and godly, presume to teach men in an assembly, or to baptize any, except necessity constrain. So that the Canon inhibiteth women to preach or to baptize in the open Church and public assemblies. And this is a sufficient answer to this place, neither dother it impugn any thing affirmed in the Answer. Chap. 5. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 13. The authors of the Admonition object that necessity of salvation is tied to the Sacraments by this means, and that men are confirmed in that old error that no man can be saved without baptism, which in deed is true. For must it not be thought to be done of necessity, and upon great extremity, for the doing whereof the orders that God hath let, that it should be done in the congregation, and by the Minister of the Gospel, are broken? Yes verily. And I will further say, that although that the Infants which die without baptism should be assuredly damned (which is most false) yet ought not the orders which God hath set in his Church, to be broken after this sort. For as the salvation of men ought to be bear unto us: so the glory of God, which consists in that his orders be kept, aught to be much more dear, that if at any time the controversy could be between his glory and our salvation, our salvation aught to fall that his glory may stand. Io. Whitgifte. Yet the avoiding of that error is no sufficient cause to debar Infants from There is necessity of baptism, though the necessity of salvation be not tied to the sacraments. baptism: except you will therein join with the Anabaptistes. The outward sacramental signs, are seals of God's promises, and whosoever refuseth the same, shall never enjoy the promises, and although the necessity of salvation is not so tied to the Sacraments, that whosoever hath the external signs, shall therefore be saved, yet is it so tied unto them, that none can be saved, that willingly and wittingly is void of them, & not partakers of them. Circumciston which is a figure of baptism, Genes. 17. had that necessity joined unto it, that whosoever lacked it, was not counted nor reckoned Mark. 16. amongst the people of God. It is not nothing that christ saith: Qui crediderit & baptizatus fuerit etc. But your manner of doctrine is such, that it maketh men The doctrine tendeth to the de ogation of the sacraments. think that the external signs of the sacraments are but bore ceremonies, and in no sense necessary to salvation, which must in time bring in a contempt of the sacraments, and especially of baptism for Infants. M. Zuinglius, Bucer, and Caluine as you herded before, although they do not think children without baptism to be damned, yet do they judge the baptism of children to be necessary, and that for just causes, as is before declared. And what Christian would willingly suffer his child to dye without the sacrament of regeneration, the lack whereof (though it be not a necessary) yet may it seem to be a probable token and sign of reprobation. What either order of God, or commandment is broken in private baptism? or where hath God appointed that baptism must be ministered in the open congregation only, and not upon any cause in private families? Will you yet deal on this sort without ground or proof? In private baptism used upon necessity there is neither order nor commandment of God broken. If there be, show it. Chap. 5. the. 13. Division. The Admonition. And yet this is not to tie necessity of salvation to the sacraments, nor to nousell men up in that opinion. This is agreeable with the scriptures, and therefore when they bring the baptized child they are received with this special commendation: I certify you that you have done well and according to due order. etc. But now we speak in good earnest, when they answer this, let them tell us how this gear agreeth with the scriptures, and whether it be not repugnant or against the word of God? Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 187. Sect. 1 And yet (you say) this is not to tie necessity of salvation to the sacraments, nor to nousell men up in that opinion. etc. Not surely, no more than it is to teach, that children aught to be baptised, and not to tarry until such time as they be able to answer for themselves. T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1 Now in the. 187. page, M. Doctor answereth hereunto, that this implieth no more, that the salvation is tied to the sacraments, than when it is taught that Infants must be baptized, and not tarry until they come to the age of discretion. The which how truly it is spoken, when as the one hath ground of the scripture, the other hath none, the one approved by the continual, and almost the general practice of the Church, the other used only in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof, let all men judge. Io. Whitgifte. This verifieth my saying, for if baptism of children be grounded upon the scriptures, as it is, then is the necessity of baptizing them, the more: so that if not for fear of damnation, yet because of God's commandment and institution, children are of necessity to be baptised: and this is a received opinion in the Church, even from the beginning, & therefore lay men in the time of necessity, from the beginning have been permitted to baptize, as may appear by the authors before alleged. Chap. 5. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1 Therefore for so much as the ministery of the word and Sacraments go together, and that the ministery of the word may not be committed unto women, and for that this evil custom hath risen first of a false understanding of the Scripture, and then of a false conclusion of that untrue understanding, which is, that they can not be saved which are not baptised, and for that the authors themselves of that error did never seek no remedy of the mischief in women's or private baptism: And last of all, for that if there were any remedy, against the mischief in such kind of baptism, yet it aught not to be used, being against the institution of God, and his glory. I conclude that the private baptism, and by women is utterly unlawful. Io. Whitgifte. These be all petitions of principles, or the most of them: for I have showed before, that the administration of baptism hath been and may be committed to some, even in the public congregation, to whom the preaching of the word is not committed: and now in like manner I have proved, that lay men in the time of necessity may baptize: which both are denied by you without any kind of proof. I have also showed, how that the necessity of baptizing Infants is vehemently defended of those, that be not of S. Augustine's judgement touching their damnation, if they he not baptised, and I have set down their words, which contain their reasons. Last of all, I have put you to prove that Private baptism in time of necessity is against any comma dement or institution of Christ's: for I deny it. So that notwithstanding I suspend my judgement for baptizing by women: yet I am out oh doubt for private baptism. ¶ Of private Communion, wherewith the Admonition charges the book of Common prayer. Chap. 6. the. 1. Division. Admonition. Now they are bound to the book of Common prayer, in which a great number of things contrary to the word of God are conteyeed. etc. as (k) 1. Cor. 11. 18. private Communion. etc. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. 2. I know not what you mean by private Communion: if you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. mean the receiving of one alone, there is none such allowed in the book: if you mean because it is ministered sometime upon occasion in private houses, I see not how you can call it private in respect of the place, if the number of Communicants be sufficient. You must explicate yourself before I can tell what you mean. There is nothing in the communion book touching the Communion, contrary to the place of S. Paul by you quoted, to my 1. Cor. 11. . knowledge. T. C. Page. 105. Sect. 1 There followeth the private Communion, which is found fault with, both for the place wherein it is ministered, and for the small number of Communicants, which are admitted by the book of service. Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently, it rests to consider of the number. But before I come to that, I will speak something of the causes and beginning of receiving in houses, and of the ministering of the Communion unto sick folks. It is not to be denied, but that this abuse is very ancient, and was in justine Martyrs time, in tertullian's and Cyprians time, even as also there were other abuses crept into the Supper of the Lord, and that very gross, as the mingling of water with wine, and therein also a necessity and great mystery placed, as it may appear both by justine Martyr, and Cyprian, which I therefore by the way do admonish the Reader of, that the antiquity of this abuse of private Communion, be not prejudicial to the truth, no more than the mingling of water with that opinion of necessity that those fathers had of it, is or aught to be prejudicial to that that we use in ministering the cup with pure wine, according to the institution. Io. Whitgifte. This is your accustomed manner (but it is besides all good manners) to wipe away The usual answering of T. C. ancient and learned authority, by objecting unto the authors, some imperfection in their writings, or errors in their times. Is this a good reason, water was of necessity required in Cypryans' time in the administration of the supper, and that was an error, therefore the communion at that time, and long before, ministered unto the sick, and carried to private people being absent, was unlawful? Such be your arguments, and this is your kind of answering: which may be plausible to the ignorant people, but nothing pleasant to such as be learned. This one thing Moore sincerity in the mi nistration now than in the ancient Church. I will desire the Reader to consider (that seeing our sacraments now be more sincerely ministered than they were in justiness, tertullian's, and Cyprians time, being so near the Apostles) what cause there should be for you, so bitterly to inu ygh against this Church in that respect. Chap. 6. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 115. towards the end. I say therefore that this abuse was ancient, and rose upon these causes. First of all in the primitive Church, the discipline of the Church was so severe, and so extreme, that if any which professed the truth, and were of the body of the Church, did through infirmity denic the truth, and joined himself unto the Idolatrous service, although he repenting came again unto the Church, yet was he not received to the communion of the Lords supper any more. And yet lying in extremity of sickness, and ready to departed this life, if they did require the Communion in token that the Church had forgiven the fault, and was reconciled altogether unto that person that had so fallen, they granted that he might be partaker of it, as may appear by the (*) Euscb. li. 6. cap. 4 story of Serapton. Io. Whitgifte. All this is true, for sometime they had three, six, or ten years space of repentance before they were admitted to the sacrament, and after that time was expired, they came as other did to the Communion, if they lived to it: if not, they received it on their death bed. This is for my purpose, for it manifestly declareth, that then the Communion was ministered unto the sick, which is our question, it can by no means be drawn against me. Chap. 6. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 116. Lin. 2. another cause was that which was before alleged, which is, the false opinion, which they had conceived, that all those were condemned, that received not the supper of the Lord, and therefore when as those that were as they called them Cathecumeni, which is young Novices in religion, never admitted to the supper, or young children fallen sick dangerously, they ministered the supper of the Lord unto them, lest they should want their voyage victual (as they termed it) which abuse notwithstanding was neither so ancient as the other, nor so general. Io. Whitgifte. This was the cause that moved some so to do: howbeit, neither was it the only cause, neither the general and usual cause, but the general and usual cause was the institution of Christ, and the fruits and effects of that Supper, the which whosoever doth consider accordingly, will neither cease from requiring it, in time of extremity, neither withhold it from such as faithfully and earnestly desire the same, and it is an easy matter to show, that this manner of communicating in private families, is of very great antiquity, even in justinus Martyrs time, as appeareth in his second Apology, and is by you confessed. Chap. 6. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 8. And there wanted not good men, which declared their misliking, and did decree against both the abuses, and against all manner communicating in private houses. As in the Council of (*) Tom. 1. n. 58. Laodicea, it was ordained that neither Bishop nor Elder, should make any oblation, that was, minister any Communion in houses. Io. Whitgifte. This Council doth speak against the usual manner of celebrating the Communion in private houses, without any respect of necessity: which abuse was grown in some places in the time of Jerome and Damasus, about whose time this The Communion ministered to the sick. Council was: but there is neither Council, nor learned Father, that ever opened their mouths against ministering the Communion to the sick in private families, or upon any other urgent or necessary occasion. The (*) In the Greek it is the. 13. Canon. 12. Canon of the Council of Nice, doth determine directly, that the Communion ought to be ministered to the sick. Chap. 6. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 12. Besides therefore that I have before showed the unlawfulness generally of ministering the Sacrament in private places, seeing that the custom of ministering this Supper unto the sick, rose upon corrupt causes and rotten foundations, and considering also (God be praised) in these times there are none driven by fear to renounce the truth, whereupon any such excommunication should ensue, which in the extremity of sickness should be mitigated after this sort (for no man now that is in extreme sickness, is cast down, or else assaulted with this temptation, that he is cut off from the Church) I say these things considered, it followeth, that this ministering of Communion in private houses, and to the sick, is unlawful, as that which rose upon evil grounds: and if it were lawful, yet that now in these times of peace, and when the sick are not excommunicated, there is no use of it. And so it appeareth how little the custom of the old Church, doth help M. Doctor in this point. Io. Whitgifte. This was one cause, but not the only cause why the Communion was ministered to the sick: the chief and principal cause was (as I have said) the fruits and effects of that Sacrament, which is remission of sins, peace of conscience, and effectual applying of the death and passion of Christ unto the Communicants, and an assurance of God's promises, whereof that sacrament is an effectual seal. Chap. 6. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 81. Sect. 3 The Communion exhibited unto sick people, is allowed both Sick people receive the communion. of Peter Martyr, and Bucer, as in the other treatise I have declared and consonant to the custom of Christ's Church, even from the Apostles time, as is to be seen in the old writers. T. C. Page. 116. Sect. 1 And as for that he saith Peter Martyr, and Bucer do allowé the Communion exhibited to the sick people, when he showeth that, he shall have answer. For where he saith he hath declared it in an other treatise, either the Printer hath left out that treatise, or M. Doctor wonderfully forgetteth himself, or else he means some odd thing, that he hath written, and laid up in some corner of his study, for surely there is no such saying in all his book before, nor yet after, as far as I can find. M. Bucer in his Censures upon the Communion book speaking of this part of Bucer. it, saith thus: And those things which are commanded in this behalf do well enough agreed with the holy Scriptures: for to receive the Communion of the Lord, and to be partaker of his Table, doth not a little avail unto the comfort of afflicted consciences, if it be received according to the Lords institution. M. Martyrs allowing of the same, is added in that place. M. Musculus in his Common places, Titul. de coena Domini, saith that Privata & Musculus. extrema aegrotantium communio. etc. Private and last communion ministered to the sick, is retained in divers reform Churches, for this end, that the sick people thereby may be strengthened in faith, made stronger against the temptations of Satan, and the better armed to bear the pains of death. Neither do I see any reason (if the superstitious opinion of the Papists be rooted out) why any man in that case should be deprived of these benefits. Chap. 6. the. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 116. Sect. 2. Now remaineth to be spoken of the number of communicantes, and that there is fault in the appointing of the Service book, not only for that it admitteth in the time of plague, that one with the Minister may celebrated the Supper of the Lord in the house, but for that it ordaineth a Communion in the Church, when of a great number which assemble there, it admytteth thrce or four. The abuse and inconvenience whereof may thus be considered. The holy Sacrament of the Supper of the Lord is not only a seal, and confirmation of the promises of God unto us, but also a profession of our comunction, as well with Christ our saviour, and with God, as also (as (*) 1. C . 10 S. Paul teacheth) a declaration and profession that we are at one with our brethren: so that it is first a sacrament, of the knytting of all the body generally, and of every member particularly with the head, and then of the members of the body one with an other. Now therefore seeing that every particular Church and body of God's people, is a representation, and as it were a lively portraiture of the whole Church and body of Christ, it followeth that which we can not do with all the Church scattered throughout the whole world, for the distances of places whereby we are severed, we aught to do with that Church whereunto God hath ranged us, as much as possibly or conventently may be. The departing therefore of the rest of the Church, from those three or four is an open profession that they have no communion, fellowship, nor unity with them that do communicate: and likewise of those three or four, that they have none with the rest that join not themselves thereunto: when as both by the many grapes making one cup, & corns making one loaf, that whole Church being many people, are called as to the unity which they have one with an other, and altogether among themselves: so to the declaration and profession of it, by receiving one with another, and altogether amongst themselves. And as if so be, that we do not celebrated as we may possibly and conveniently, the supper of the Lord, we thereby utter our want of love towards the Lord, which hath redeemed us: so if we do not communicate together with the Church, so far forth as we may do conveniently we betray the want of our love, that we have one towards an other. And therefore S. (*) 1. C . 11 Paul driving hereunto, wisheth that one should tarry for an other, reprehending that when one preventeth, and cometh before an other, saying: that that is to take every man his own supper, and not to celebrated the lords Supper, not that so many men or women as there came, so many tables were, for that had not been possible in so great assemblies, but that they sorted themselves into certain companies, and that they came scattering one after an other, and that in stead of making one Supper of the Lord, they did make divers. Io. Whitgifte. You can not be ignorant, that the whole drift of the Communion book, is to move The intent of the book is to move all men to communicate. all men to oft communicating, and that together, as it manifestly appeareth in the first exhortation in the book prescribed to be read, when the Curate shall see the people negligent in coming to the Communion, the which if you had well peruse you would have (as I think) cut off much of this talk. If the book should appoint that three or four should communicate together, & no more, or if it did not allow that Communion best wherein most of the Church do participate: then were your reasoning to some end: but seeing that it is appointed that there should not be fewer than three or four, to the end that it might be a Communion, and have no similitude with the Papistical Mass, there is no cause why you should take this pains. And surely he that shall compare that exhortation in the book with this discourse of yours, it will be no hard matter for him to judge, how much more pithily and effectually Three or four a sufficient number, if other will not communicate. this matter is there handled, than it is here by you. But that three or four should be a sufficient number to communicate if other will not, there is good cause: for seeing the holy Sacrament is a Seal and confirmation of God's promises, and an effectual applying of the death and passion of Christ unto us, and therefore a singular comfort and relief to the afflicted conscience and mind touched with the feeling Three or four a congregation. Math. 18. of sin, why should those that be desirous of it being a congregation (as three or four is, according to the saying of Christ, where two or three be gathered together in my name, etc.) be debarred from their Godly desire, and that singular comfort, for the carelessness, security, negligence, or lack of such feeling of others? Shall none communicate because all will not? Or shall not three or four because the rest refuse? Or is it lack of love towards our neighbour, or any token thereof if we resort to the lords table, when other will not? Where learn you that? The place of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 11. is not aptly applied. For the Apostle in that place, reproveth only such as contemptuously or contentiously did separate themselves from other as well in the public feasts called Love feasts, and then used in the Church, as in the Supper of the Lord. But he rather means of the first than of the Martyr. in. 1. Cor. 11. latter, and therefore saith M. Martyr upon that place. The Supper is here called private: either because some did challenge to themselves privately that which belonged to all: or else because every one after the receiving of the holy mysteries, did take again to himself those things, which he had offered at the lords table, and made that his own which by right belonged to all. And again he saith, that the Corinthians be there reproved, Because they pampered their belly, and contemned their brethren. I told you before what M. Caluine thought of this place: it can in no respect tend to the disallowing of any order appointed in the book of common prayer, because no man is secluded from the Communion that will come, and those that come when other men will not, do it not of contempt or of contention, but of conscience and piety. Moreover, we have no such banquettes or feasts, either before or after the Communion, as the Corinthians had, and therefore in that respect, there can be no such abuse as the Apostle there reproveth. Chap. 6. the. 8. Division. Admonition. Sixthly, in this book three or four are allowed for a fit number to receive the Communion, and the Priest alone together with one more, or with the sick man alone, may in time of necessity, that is, when there is any common plague, or in time of other visitation minister it to the sick man, and if he require it, it may not be denied. This is not I am sure, like in effect to a private Mass: that Scripture (f) Mat. 26. 27 Mar. 14. 23 drink you all of this, maketh not against this, and private Communion, is not against the Scriptures. Answer to the Adm onition. Pag. 185. Sect. 1 How untruly these men charge the Church with private Communions I have showed before. The place of scripture here alleged to prove that three or four be not a sufficient number to communicate No number determined to be at the Communion. is this, drink you all of this. Mat. 26. Mark. 14. which may as well be applied to prove that ten, twenty, forty, is no sufficient number: I know not what your meaning is except you think no number sufficient, unless all do communicate together, because Christ said drink you all of this. This text proveth that all aught to be partakers of the lords Cup, but it doth not determine any certain number of Communicants. I know there be some of the old fathers as Basilius basil would have. twelve. at the lest . Magnus, which would not have fewer Communicants than. twelve. But of the number of Communicants there is nothing determined in Scripture, neither is it material so that there be a number, that it may be a Communion. T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1 These things being considered, the reason which the Admonition useth in the. 185. page, where this matter is spoken of, which is, drink you all of this, is not so ridiculous, as M. doctor maketh it. For although it do neither prove that. 12. or. 20. or any other definite number must of necessity receive, yet it proveth that as all they which were present did communicate: so as many as in the Church are fit to receive the Sacraments, or may convetently receive them together, should follow that example in celebrating the supper together. Io. Whitgifte. The book of common prayer doth greatly commend, and like the receyning of the whole Church together, but if that can not be obtained (as it cannot, and they will not have men compelled unto it) it secludeth not those that be well disposed: so they be a competent number. And the book doth exhort those to departed which do not communicate, with a warning from whence they departed, so that you may well understand, that the meaning of the Book is, that all that be present should communicate. Neither can this place of scripture be drawn to improve the decree of the Church therein. For Christ had. 70. other disciples and his mother, with divers other which followed him, that were not present at that Supper: as no doubt they should have been, if by that example he had meant to have made a law, that there may be no Communion unless the whole congregation of every particular Church do communicate together. Chap. 6. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1 And it is probably to be thought, that if our Saviour Christ had not been restrained by the law of God, touching the Passeover unto his own family being twelve, and therefore a competent number to ear up a lamb by themselves, that he would have celebrated his supper, not only amongst his. twelve. disciples, which (*) They were made Apostles before, and so called. afterward he made Apostles, but also amongst other of his disciples, & professors of his doctrine. But forsomuch as it was meet that he should celebrated his supper there and then, where and when he did celebrated his Passover, for the cause before by me alleged, it pleased him to keep his first Supper with twelve only, for that the law of Communication unto the Passeover which was joined with the supper, would not admit any greater number of Communicants, they being sufficient and enough to eat up the passover. Io. Whitgifte. This is only a conjecture: but it overthroweth your argument: for by your saying, Christ had his twelve Apostles there at Supper, because the law touching the Passcover did bind him thereunto, not because he would signify that there should be no Communion except the whole Church do communicate. The disciples were made Apostles before the institution of the Supper, and were so called, as it is evident. Math. 10. & Mark. 3. and therefore I marvel what you mean Math. 10. Mark. 3. in saying, which afterwards he made Apostles. Chap. 6. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. And although it be clear and plain, that when it is said drink you all of this, and ta ie one for another, these sayings are meant of that particular congregation or assembly which assemble themselves together to be taught by one mouth of the Minister, yet I have therefore put this caution of (as much as may be possible) lest any man should cavil, as though I would have no Communion, until all the godly through the world should meet together. Likewise I have put this caution (as much as may be conveniently) for although it be possible, that any particular Church may communicate at one table, in one day, and together, yet may the same be inconvenient for diverse causes. As if the number should be very great, so that to have them all communicate together, it would require such a long time, as the tarrying out of the whole action, would hazard either the life, or at lest the health of diverse there. Again forasmuch as other some being at the Church it is meet that other should be at home upon occasion of infants and such like things, as require the presence of some to tar e at home. In these cases and such like the inconveniences do deliver us from the gilt of uncharitableness and forsaking the fellowship of the Church, for that we do not here sever our selves, but are by good and just causes severed, which gilt we shall never escape, if besides such necessary causes we pretend those that are not, or having not so much as a pretence, yet notwithstanding separate ourselves, as the daily practice through the Church doth show. Io. Whitgifte. If you be content to admit so many cautions, and exceptions, then is the question soon decided, and you make it no such commandment, but that upon occasion it may be altered. In deed the words of Christ do signify, that the cup of the Supper, and the whole Supper is common to all, as well of the laity (as we term them) as of the clergy, but it doth not prescribe what number shall be present at every several Communion. I do not excuse those that withdraw themselves from that Supper, except it be upon necessary and just occasion, but I deny that the negligence or lawful occasion of some aught to hinder or stay other from communicating: this you should have proved, but you do not, and your cautions, and exceptions (which I very well allow) declare the contrary. Chap. 6. the. 11. Division. T. C. Page. 117. Sect. 3 But it may be objected, that in this point the book of common prayer is not in fault, which doth not only not forbidden that all the Church should receive together, but also by a good and godly exhortation moveth those that be present, that they should not departed but communicate altogether. It is true that it doth not forbidden, and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose, but that (I say) is not enough, for neither should it suffer that three or four should have a Communion by themselves (so many being in the Church meet to receive, and to whom the Supper of the Lord doth of like right appertain) and it aught to provide that those which would withdraw themselves, should be by ecclesiastical discipline at all times, and now also under a godly Prince by civil punishment (*) This is clean contrary to the Admonition. pag. 109. brought to communicate with their brethren. And this is the law of God, and this is now and hath been heretofore the practice of Churches reform. All men understand that the Passeover was a figure of the lords Supper, and that there should be as strait bonds to bind men to celebrated the remembrance of our spiritual deliverance, as there was to remember the deliverance out of Egypt. But whosoever did not then communicate with the rest at that time, when the Passeover was eaten, was excommunicated, as it may appear in the Numbers, Num. 9 where he saith, that whosoever did not communicate being clean, (*) This is not excommunication, but putting to death. his soul should be cut of from amongst the people of God, therefore this neglect or contempt rather of the lords Supper aught to be punished with no less punishment, especially when as (after the Church hath proceeded in that order which our Saviour Christ appointeth of admonishing) they be not sorry for their fault, and promise' amendment. And that this was the custom of the Churches, it may appear by Conc. Apo. Can. 9 the. 9 of those Cannons which are fathered of the Apostles, where it is decreed that all the faithful that entered into the congregation, and herded the Scriptures read, and did not tarry out the prayers and the holy Communion, should be as those which were cause s of disorders in the Church, separated from the Church (or as it is translated of an other) deprived of the Communion. Also in the council of Braccara, it was decreed, that if any entering into the Church of God, herded the Scriptures, Con. 2. Bracca. cap. 83. om. 2. and afterward of wantonness or looseness, withdrew himself from the Communion of the Sacrament and so broke the rule of discipline in the reverend Sacraments, should be put out of the church, till such time as he had by good fruits declared his repentance. Io. Whitgifte. I do not much disagree from this, saving that I see no reason, that three or four should be debarred from so comfortable and fruitful a Sacrament, either for the negligence or necessary impediments of others: except also your misunderstanding of the 9 of Numbers: for delere animam eius de populis suis is there not to excommunicate, (as you interpret it, but to put to death and to kill, which were a hard punishment for such as be negligent in coming to the Communion. Convenient discipline I think very necessary in this point, and therefore I will not stand with you in other circumstances of this portion, only I will desire the Reader to note how far the Authors The Admonition and the 〈◊〉 agr not. of the Admonition vary from you in this assertion, who Page 102. say, That we thrust them in their sin to the lords table, and page 109. that it should be provided, that Papists nor other, neither constraynedly nor customable communicate in the mysteries of salvation, which cannot otherwise be meant, than that we compel them by punishments to come to the lords table. But how much more cause should they have so to say: if we were as severe in punishing as you here require. But the negligence of the common sort, in not oftener frequenting the lords supper is lamentable, the punishment appointed for such, in all places not so well executed, and therefore as I said before, I think convenient, discipline and due execution of the same, very necessary. another thing also I would have the Reader to mark, that you here allege for proof the Canons of the Apostles; which are as much doubted of to have been the Apostles, as the Epistles either of Clement, or Anacletus. Chap. 6. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 118. Sect. 1 But here also may rise another doubt of the former words of Moses, in the book of Numbers. For seeing that he maketh this exception (if they be clean) it may be said that those that departed, do not feel themselves meet to receive, and therefore departed, the other three or four, or more, feel themselves meet and disposed for that purpose, whereupon it may seem that it is neither reason to compel those to come, which feel not themselves meet, nor to reject them that feel that good disposition and preparation in themselves. For answer whereunto we must understand, that the uncleanness which Moses speaketh of was such as men could not easily avoid. And whereunto they might fall sometimes, by necessary duty, as by handling their dead, which they were by the rule of charity bound to bury, sometimes by touching at unwares a dead body, or by sitting in the place where some unclean body had sitten, or by touching such things, which the law judged unclean, which thing cannot be alleged in those that are now of the Church: for as many as be of it, and withal of such discretion, as are able to prove and examine themselves, can have no excuse at all if they may be at the Church, to withdraw themselves from the holy Supper of the Lord. For if they will say, that they be not meet, it may be answered unto them, that it is their own fault, and further if they be not meet to receive the holy Sacrament of the Supper, they are not meet to hear the word of God, they are not meet to be partakers of the prayers of the Church, and if they be for one, they are also for the other, for with that boldness, and with that duty or lawfulness, (I speak of those which are of the Church, and of discretion to examine themselves) I say (*) This is not true as shall be showed. with what lawfulness they may offer themselves to the prayers, and to the hearing of the word of God, they may also offer themselves unto the lords Supper. And to whom soever of them the Lord will communicate himself by preaching the word unto the same he will not refuse to communicate himself by receiving of the Sacraments, for whosoever is of God's household and family, he need not be afraid to come to the lords table, nor doubt but that the Lord will feed him there, and whatsoever he be, that is a member of the body of Christ, may be assured that he receiveth life from Christ the head, as well by the arteries and conduits of the Supper of the Lord, as by the preaching of the word of God: so that it must needs follow, that the not receiving of those which departed out of the Church, when there is any Communion celebrated, proceedeth either of vain and superstitious fear, growing of gross ignorance of themselves and of the holy Sacraments, or else of an intolerable negligence or rather contempt, of the which neither the one, nor the other should be either born with or nourished, either by permitting three or four to communicate alone, or else in letting them which departed go so easily away with so great a fault which aught to be severely punished. Io. Whitgifte, Neither do I differ from you in the substance of this that you here set down, which is (as I take it) to cut off frivolous and vain excuses, used by such as either neglect or contemn the holy Communion, but in certain circumstances here used, I do not altogether agree with you. For first, the uncleanness that Moses speaketh of is but ceremonial and external, and therefore may more easily be avoided: but weakness of faith, and uncleanness of life (which may and aught for a time withdraw men from the Communion) is natural and inward, & therefore with greater difficulty shunned. Secondly a Christian man and a true member of the Church may take benefit Men not meet to communicate, may be admitted to the hearing of the fro and pray . by prayer and hearing of the word of God, which yet for diverse respects is not meet to receive the holy Communion: and indeed praying and preaching be means to prepare men, and make them apt to communicate: besides this he that is weak in faith, corrupt in judgement, ignorant in the right use of the Sacrament, may be admitted to prayer, and to the hearing of the word, that he may be instructed (for fides ex auditu, faith cometh by hearing) so may he not, to the receiving Rome 10 of the Supper: thirdly, no man may presume to receive the Supper except he hath first tried and examined himself: but he aught to come to the hearing of the word of God, that he may first learn how to examine himself. Wherefore this is not true that with what lawfulness they may offer themselves to the prayers and to the hearing of the T. C. contrary to himself, pag. 35. n. 10 & pag. 133. li. . 19 word of God, they may also offer themselves unto the lords Supper. And you affirm the contrary. Pag. 35. For there you say that the Magistrate aught to compel such as be Papists and excommunicate people to hear Sermons, and Pag. 133. you affirm the same in plainer words, showing a reason why such may be admitted to the hearing of the word, and yet not to the participation of the lords Supper. Lastly, I deny that any such persuasion is nourished in them, by suffering three or four to communicate, but the contrary rather, for the Godly example of these few may either provoke the rest to the like diligence, or else confound them and make them ashamed, especially if either that Godly exhortation contained in the book, be read unto them, or they be otherwise put in mind of their slackness by a Godly and careful Minister. These circumstances excepted, in the rest of the matter in this part I agree with you. Chap. 6. the. 13. Division. T. C. Page. 118. Sect. 1 And upon this either contempt or superstitious fear, drawn from the Papists lenten preparation of forty days, ear hrift, displing, etc. it cometh to pass that men receiving the Supper of the Lord but seldom, when they fall sick must have the Supper ministered unto them in their houses, which otherwise being once every week received before should not breed any such unquietness in them, when they cannot come to receive it, although as I have before showed, if they had never received it before, yet that private receiving were not at any hand to be suffered. And thus having declared what I think to be faulty, in the Communion book in this point, and the reasons why, and withal answered to that which either M. Doctor allegeth in this place of the 80. and 81. and likewise in the 152. and 185. pages touching this matter, I come now unto that which is called the jewish purifying by the Admonition, and by the service book afore time, the purifycation of women. Io. Whitgifte. I see not how this in any point is true: for lenten fast was then used when the Communion was most diligently and often frequented, and indeed the rare and seldom receiving, came in with private Massing, which had the beginning long after the lenten fast. To receive once every week is a thing to be wished if it might conveniently be, And yet notwithstanding were not the Communion to be denied to the sick: for it oftentimes cometh to pass, that men through infirmity and sickness are not able to come to the Church in whole months and years, whom this weekly communicating could nothing help, and it were against all reason to debar them of this seal of God's promises, this effectual manner and kind of applying of the death of Christ unto themselves, this assurance of the forgiveness of sins, and this Sacrament of comfort, especially in time of extremity and sickness, if they be desirous of it. And thus you have declared what you think to be faulty in the Communion book in this point, and the reasons why: but of what force your reasons are, and how justly in this point you charge the book, the Reader may now judge. Of the Churching of women. Chap. 7. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 118. Sect. ult. Now to the churching of women, in the which title yet kept, there seemeth to be hide a great part levit. 12. of the jewish purification: for like as in the old law she that had brought forth a child was held Srife about words. unclean, until such time as she came to the temple to show herself, after she had brought forth a man or a woman: so this term of churching of her can seem to import nothing else, than a banishment (and as it were) a certain excommunication from the Church during the space that is between the time of her delivery, and of her coming unto the Church. For what doth else this churching imply; but a restoring her unto the Church, which cannot be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed. It is also called the thanks giving, but the principal title which is the directory of this part of the Liturgy, and placed in the top of the leaf, as that which the translator best liked of, is (Churching of women.) To pass by that, that it will have them come as nigh the Communion table as may be, as they came before to the high altar (because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies) that of all other is most jewish, and approacheth nearest to the jewish purifycation, that she is commanded to offer accustomed offerings, wherein besides that the very word offering carrieth with it a strong sent and suspicion of a sacrifice (especially being uttered simply without any addition) it cannot be without danger that the book maketh the custom of the Popish Church (which was so corrupt) to be the rule and measure of this offering. And although the meaning of the book is not, that it should be any offering for sin, yet this manner of speaking, may be a stumbling stock in the way of the ignorant and simple, and the wicked & obstinate thereby are confirmed and hardened in their corruptious. The best which can be answered in this case is, that it is for the relief of the minister, but than it should be remembered, first that the minister liveth not any more of offerings: secondarily, that the payment of the ministers wages is not so convenient, either in the Church, or before all the people: and thirdly, that thereby we fall into that fault which we condemn in Popery, and that is, that besides the ordinary living appointed for the service of the Priests in the whole, they took for their several services of Mass, Baptism, Burying, Churching, etc. several rewards, which thing being of the service book, well abolished in certains other things, I cannot see, what good cause there should be to retain it in this and certain other. Io. Whitgifte. It is the property of quarrelers, and of men naturally bend to contention, to strive Strife of words proper to quarrelers. about words and terms, when they cannot reprove any thing in the matter itself. For in all these faults here pretended there is not one that toucheth the matter of the book, only the title in the top of the leaf, the coming of women so near to the Communion table, the paying of the accustomed offerings to the Curate, are in this place reproved, as matters of great importance, being all of themselves not worth the talking off: and yet being (as comely and decent orders) prescribed by the Church, may not be contemned and despised, without the crime of stubbornness and disobedience. But that your quarreling may the rather appear, I will answer your cavils in as few words as I can, and first for the title which is this. The thanks giving of women after childbirth, commonly called the Churching of women. Now sir you see, that the proper title The people hardly brought to leave accustomed terms is this. The thanks giving of women after Childbirth. The other is the common name customably used of the common people, who will not be taught to speak by you, or any man, but keep their accustomed names and terms: therefore they call the lords day Sunday, and the next day unto it Monday, profane and ethnical names, and yet nothing derogating from the days and times. Likewise they call the Morning and Evening prayer, Matins and Evensong, neither can they be brought to the contrary, and yet the prayers be not the worse: so they call the day of Christ's nativity Christmas, etc. what is this to condemn the things themselves? But you say this term doth import nothing else than a banishment from the Church. etc. so might you say that these names Sunday & Monday do import that we dedicated those days to the Sun & Moon: and so likewise might you say of the other names retained in the common and usual speech: but all men would then espy your folly even as they may do now, if they be disposed. The absence of the woman after her delivery, is neither banishment nor excommunication (as you term it) but a withdrawing The true cause of the absence of the woman after her deliverance. of the party from the Church by reason of that infirmity and danger, that God hath laid upon woman kind in punishment of the first sin, which danger she knoweth not whether she shall escape or no: and therefore after she hath not only escaped it, but also brought a child into the world, to the increase of God's people, and after such time as the comeliness of nature may bear, she cometh first into The cause of her thanksgiving. the Church to give thanks for the same, and for the deliverance by Christ from that sin, whereof that infirmity is a perpetual testimony. And this being done, not jewishly, but Christianly, not of custom, but of duty, not to make the act of lawful matrimony unclean, but to give thanks to God for deliverance from so manifold perils, what Christian heart can for the names sake, thus disallow of it, as you do? The coming so near the communion table, is a very small matter to carp at, it is thought to be the most convenient place, both for the minister & for the woman, especially if she be disposed to receive the holy Communion. But such trifling quarrels argue an extreme penury of good and substantial reasons. The paying of her accustomed offerings which you seem most to mislike (as yourself confess the meaning of the book to be) hath no such purpose and intent, as you would make the Reader to believe, neither can it: for she neither offereth Lamb, Turtles, or levit. 12, young Pigeons, as the law requireth, but payeth to the Curate his accustomed duty, which both she may as lawfully give, and he receive, as the other tenths may be paid and received. It is a portion of the Pastors living appointed and limited unto him by the Church, and therefore he may lawfully receive it, as it is appointed unto him. And all your objections to the contrary, are hereby answered fully. Chap. 7. the. 2. Division. Admonition. In which book a great number of things contrary to God's word are contained, as jewish (b) Act. 15. 10. purifyings. etc. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. The third is, the jewish purifying (as you term it) you cite for that purpose Act. 15. where Peter speaking against certain of the Pharisies, which believed and taught that it was needful for the Gentiles which were converted, to be circumcised, and to observe Moses law, says on this sort: Now therefore why tempt you God, Act. 15. to say a yoke on the disciples necks. etc. How any thing here contained, prohibiteth women after they be delivered from the great danger and pains of child bearing, to give in the congregation thanks for their deliverance, let the godly Reader judge. Surely this is no jewish purifying, but Christian giving of thanks, most consonant and agreeable to the word of God. But hereof also some thing more is to be spoken in an other place. T. C. Pag. 119. lin. 24. Now whereas M. Doctor saith that the place of the 15. of the Acts alleged by the Admonition, maketh nothing against this, he should have considered, that if it be a jewish ceremony (as they suppose it) it is to be abolished utterly. For it being showed there, that all the Ceremonial law of Moses is done away through our Saviour Christ, this also a part thereof must needs be therein comprised. Io. Whitgifte. The place nothing pertaineth to this purpose, neither is giving of thanks a jewish Ceremony, and therefore their supposition is but vain. Chap. 7. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 119. in the midst. And whereas he saith that it being nothing else but a thanksgiving for hit deliverance, cannot be therefore but Christian and very godly: I answer, that if there should be solemn and express giving of thanks in the Church for every benefit, either equal or greater than this, which any singular person in the Church doth receive, we should not only have no preaching of the Theod. li. 4 cap. 11. word, nor ministering of the Sacraments, but we should not have so much leisure, as to do any corporal or bodily work, but should be like unto those heretics, which were called of the Syriake word Messalians or continual prayers and which did nothing else but pray. Io. Whitgifte. Truth is never contrary unto itself: before you reproved the book of Common prayer for want of thanksgiving for benefits received: and now you reprove it for appointing thanks to be given for deliverance from sin, from manifold perils Pag. 108. Sect. 3 and dangers, and for the increase of God's people, all which things are public, although thanks be given by a private person: for in deed the punishment and danger laid upon all womankind, for disobedience is not only common, but very notorious, and a perpetual testimony of our subjection unto sin, and therefore requireth a solemn thanksgiving at such time as it pleaseth God to show his mercy therein, and to deliver from ill. And yet if it were not so, where read you that any private person is forbidden to give thanks in the public congregation, for some especial benefit received, namely if the Church think it convenient, and agree thereunto, as it doth to this? Theodoret saith, that the Messalian heretics had these errors: first, they being The errors of the Messalians Theod. lib. 4. cap. 11. possessed with a Devil, which they thought to be the holy spirit, did condemn all bodily labour as wicked: secondly, they being given to much sleep, did name the visions of their dreams prophecies: thirdly, they said that the supper of the Lord and Baptism, did neither good nor harm to any man: fourthly, when they were charged with such things, they would not stand to them, but impudently deny them: last of all, they taught that every man when he is born, doth take of his parents as the nature, so likewise the servitude of Devils, which being driven out by diligent prayer, the holy spirit entered in. etc. This is all that Theodoret in that place reporteth of those heretics: the which how much it maketh against either diligent or continual prayers, Luc. 18. Rom. 12. Epbe. 6. Coll. 4. or thanksgiving for benefits received, the Reader may consider. Christ and the Apostle S. Paul, require continual prayer and thanksgiving, but not in the same sense and meaning that the Messalians did. Chap. 7. the. 4. Division. Admonition. They should first prove that churching of women coming in veils abusing the Psalm to Psal. 120. her, I have lifted up mine eyes unto the hills. etc. and such other foolish things, are agreeable to the written word of the ainughty. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 155. for the which T. C. hath noted. 153. Sect. 2. The. 121. Psalm (for I think your printer was overseen in that quotation) I have lifted up mine eyes. etc. teacheth that all help cometh from God, and that the faithful aught only to look for help at his hands, and therefore a most meet Psalm to be said at such time as we being delivered from any peril come to give thanks to God. T. C. Pag. 119. somewhat past the midst. For the Psalm. 121. spoken of in the. 155. page, it being showed that it is not meet to have any such solemn thanksgiving, it is needless to debate of the Psalm, wherewith the thanksgiving should be made. Io. Whitgifte. A short answer, and to small purpose: the Psalm is most apt for that end, and thanksgiving in such cases most godly, as I have declared both in my Answer to the Admonition and to your Reply. Chap. 7. the. 5. Division. Admonition. The twelft. Churching of women after child birth, smelleth of jewish purification: their other rites and custom in their lying in, and coming to church, is foolish and superstitious, as it is used. She must lie in with a white sheet upon her bed, & come covered with a veil, as ashamed of some folly. She must offer, but these are matters of custom, & not in the book: but this Psalm (as is noted before) is childishly abused. I (o) Psalm. 121. have lifted up mine eyes unto the hiis, from whence cometh my help. The Sun shall not burn thee by day, nor the Moon by night. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 155. and. 202. for the which T. C. hath quoted. 101. and. 102. page. In the hundredth fifty five, these be my words. That women should come in veils is not contained in the book, no more in deed is the wafer cake, and therefore you might well have left these two out of your reason being thrust in without all reason. To the which nothing is answered. In the. 202. page thus I say. For their lying in, I can say little. I am not skilful in women's matters, neither is it in the book, no more is her white sheet, nor her veil: let the women themselves answer these matters. T. C. Pag. 119. lin. 38. And whereas in the. 101. and. 102. pages unto the Admonition, objecting that the coming in the veil to the church more then, than at other times, is a token of shame, or of some folly committed, M. Doctor jestingly leaveth the matter to the women's answer, a little true knowledge of divinity, would have taught him, that the bringing in or usurping without authority any ceremony in the congregation, is both an earnester matter than may be jested at, and a weightier than should be permitted unto the discretion of every woman, considering that the same hath been so horribly abused in the time of popery. Io. Whitgifte. The answer is fit for so frivolous an objection: and a little true reason void The woman's veil a civil custom, not a ceremony of the Church. of malicious carping, would have taught you that this is rather a civil manner and custom of our country, than a ceremony of the church, and the wearing of new gloves (as many at that time, and especally at the time of marriages do) is as much a ceremony as those: for the wearing of the veil, first began of that weakness and sickness, that nature in that danger doth bring most women unto, thereby to keep them the more from the air, and therefore (as I have said) in this country it was taken up as a custom of the people, and not as a ceremony of the Church. But I perceive you will play small game before you sit out, and pick out very small trifles (though without the book) to brawl and bark at, rather than you would lack matter. Of holidays Tract. 10. Ofholydayes in general, that they may be appointed by the Church, and of the use of them. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. In which a great number of things are contained contrary to he word of God as observing of (m) Exod. 20. 9 holy days. etc. patched (if not altogether, yet the greatest pecce) out of the pope's porteous. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 81. Sect. 5. 6. Fourthly, you mislike observing of holidays: And you allege Holidays. Exod. 20. Syxe days shalt thou labour and do all thy work. To observe any day superstitiously, or to spend any day unprofitably, is flat against not this commandment only, but others also Good use of holidays. in the holy scriptures. And I would to God it were better looked unto. But to abstain any day from bodily labour, that we may labour spiritually in hearing the word of God, magnifying his name and practising the works of charity, is not either against this, or any other commandment. For I think the meaning of this commandment is not so to tie men to bodily labour, that they may not intermit the same to labour spiritually. For then how could we preachers and students excuse ourselves? How might the people lawfully come to our Sermons and Lectures in any of the six days? But of this thing also occasion will be ministered to speak more hereafter. T. C. Pag. 119. Sect. 1 The holy days follow, of which M. Doctor saith that so they be not used superstitiouflye, or unprofitably, they may be commanded. I have showed before that they were, if they were so indifferent as they are made, yet being kept of the Papists, which are the enemies of God, they aught to be abolished. And if it were as easy a matter to pull out the superstition of the observing of those holidays out of men's hearts, as it is to protest and to teach that they are not commanded for any Religion to be put in them, or for any to make conscience of the observing of them, as though there were some necessary worship of God, in the keeping of them: then were they much more tolerable, but when as the continuance of them doth nourish wicked superstition in the minds of men, and that the doctrine which should remedy the superstition through the fewness and scarcity of able ministers, cannot come to the most part of them which are infected with this disease, and that also where it is preached, the fruit thereof is in part hindered whilst the common people attend oftentimes rather to that which is done, than to that which is taught, being a thing indifferent (as it is said) it aught to be abolished, as that which is not only not fittest to hold the people in the sincere worshipping of God, but also as that which keepeth them in their former blindness & corrupt opinions, which they have conceived of such holidays. Io. Whitgifte. Things that be good and profitable and have a necessary use, tending to the Profitable things must not be refused for the abuse. edifying of the Church, and the worshipping of God, are not to be utterly removed for the abuses crept in, but the abuse must be taken away and the thing still remain. If all things should be abrogated because they were kept of the Papists, there would be a marvelous alteration, both in the Church and in the common weal. But I have showed before how far this is from the truth, even in some Tract. 7. ca 5. things invented by Popes, much more in such things as were agreed upon in the primitive Church (as many of the holidays were) before the Pope's tyranny, though afterwards greatly abused. Holidays as they be now used, be rather means to withdraw men, not only The use of our holidays a stop to superstition. from superstition of the days themselves, but from all other kinds of superstition whatsoever: for than is God in the public congregation truly worshipped, the Sacraments rightly ministered, the scriptures and other godly Homilies read, the word of God faithfully preached: all which be the chief and principal means to withdraw men, not only from superstition, but all kind of error likewise. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 2. And if they had been never abused, neither by the Papists, nor by the jews (as they have been and are daily) yet such making of holidays is never without some great danger of bringing in some evil and corrupt opinions into the minds of men. Io. Whitgifte. Imaginations and gheasses may not go for reasons, and I have showed before that the holidays now observed in the Church of England, be means to root evil and corrupt opinions out of the hearts of men: so far are they from engendering the contrary. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 5. I will use an example in one, and that the chief of holidays, and most generally, & of longest time observed in the Church, which is the feast of Easter, which was kept of some more days, of some fewer. How many thousands are there, I will not say of the ignorant Papists, but of those also which profess the Gospel, which when they have celebrated those days with diligent heed taken unto their life, and with some earnest devotion in praying and hearing the word of God, do not by and by think that they have well celebrated the feast of Easter, and yet have they thus notably deceived themselves. For Saint Paul teacheth the celebrating of the feast of the 1. Cor. 5. Christians Easter, is not as the jews Easter was, for certain days, but showeth that we must keep this feast all the days of our life, in the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth, by which we see that the observing of the feast of Easter for certain days in the year, doth pull out of our minds or ever we be ware, the doctrine of the Gospel, and causeth us to rest in that near consideration of our duties for the space of a few days, which should be extended to all our life. Io. Whitgifte. What? do you condemn the feast of Easter also? would you have it abrogated The apostles observed Easter. because it hath been abused? do you not know that the Apostles themselves observed it, and the Church ever since their time? read Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 23. and you shall find it to be a tradition of the Apostles: per use the. 24. and 25. chapter of the same Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 29. book, & you shall understand by the testimony of Polycrates, & all the other bishops in Asia, that Philip the Apostle, john the Evangelist, Polycarpus his scholar, & other bishops likewise of greatest antiquity, kept solenly the feast of Easter. But why should I labour to prove that, that all histories, all ancient fathers, all late writers, all learned men confess? and especially seeing that S. Augustine ad janu. 119. sayeth that the observation of Easter hath the authority from the scriptures, and seeing also that the same feast with others is allowed by the confession of the Churches in Helvetia? The words of which confession be these. Moreover if Churches, as they may by Christian liberty Confess. Helve. keep religiously the remembrance of Christ his birth, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension into heaven, and sending his holy ghost unto his disciples, we well allow it. Therefore I cannot but marvel, that you so boldly without ground, for abuse sake, condemn even the feast used and allowed by the Apostles, and continued in the Church without contradiction, of any one worthy of credit, to this day. Surely you may as well reason that the scriptures are not to be read, because that heretics have so greatly abused them. Th' place of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 5. is nothing to your purpose, for though he borrows a Metaphor of the jews passover, to move the Corinthians to pureness and integrity of life, yet doth he not abrogate the feast of Easter: if he had meant any such thing (as he did not) yet must it have been understanded of the jews passover, not of celebration of the memory of Christ's resurrection, which we commonly call Easter. Doth he that sayeth the whole life of a Christian man aught to be a perpetual fast, deny that there may be any day or time appointed to fast in? A Christian man must ever serve God and worship him, shall there not therefore be certain days appointed for the same? This is a very simple argument. Saint Paul willeth us to purge out the old leaven, that we may be a new lump. etc. also to keep the feast not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of maliciousness. etc. therefore we may not celebrated the feast of Easter, once in the year. I deny this argument. The observing of Easter, doth rather put us in mind of the doctrine of the Gospel, and draw us to a more near consideration of the benefits that we have received by the death, passion and resurrection of Christ, and I suppose that there are few godly disposed Christians, that do not think it most convenient and profitable, that such feasts especially should be in the Church retained, neither is every contentious people imagination and surmise what may happen, to be so greatly regarded, that it should be sufficient to condemn any thing, that may have a profitable use in the Church, by whom so ever it is invented, much less if it hath been used of the Apostles themselves, and ever sithence their time continued in the Church, as I have showed this feast to have been. Th' weakness of man is great, therefore as he is continually to be taught that he should at all times remember his duty, so is it very necessary to have certain feasts wherein by the reading and hearing of the Scriptures, men may be particularly stirred to the remembrance and deep consideration of the principal parts of our Religion, and the good and godly examples of the Saints of God in doing their duty therein. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 18. But besides the incommodities that vyse of making such holidays, and continuing of those which are so horribly abused, where it is confessed that they are not necessary: besides this I say the matter is not so indifferent as it is made, I confess that it is in the power of the Church, to appoint so many days in the week or in the year, in the which the congregation shall assemble to hear the word of God, and receive the Sacraments, and offer up prayers unto God, as it shall think good, according to those rules which are before alleged. But that it hath power to make so many holidays (as we have) wherein no man may work any part of the day, and wherein men are commanded to cease from their daily vocations, of Ploughing, and exercising their handy crafts. etc. that I deny to be in the power of the church. For proof whereof, I will take the fourth commandment and no other interpretation of it than M. Doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page, which is, that God lycenseth and leaveth it at the liberty of every man to work six days in the week, so that he rest the seventh day. Seeing that therefore, that the Lord hath left it to all men at liberty, that they might labour, if they think good six days: I say the Church, nor (*) You draw from the Magistrate his law authority, and give to the people too much carnal liberty. no man can take away this liberty from them, and drive them to a necessary rest of the body. Io. Whitgifte. The same God that gave that liberty in that commandment, did appoint other solemn feast days besides the Sabbath: as the feast of Easter, of Pentecoste, of Tabernacles. etc. without any restraint of this liberty. Therefore the interpretation given by me page. 174. of that place, doth not leave it to every private man's free liberty, against the authority of the Magistrate, or of the Church, but it giveth liberty rather to such as be in authority, and to the Church to appoint therein what shall be convenient. The Magistrate hath power and authority over his subjects in all external The Magistrate hath authority to abridge external liberty. What liberty can not be taken away. matters, and bodily affairs: Wherefore he may call them from bodily labour, or compel them unto it, as shall be thought to him most convenient. The liberty that God giveth to man, which no man ought to take from him, nor can if he would, is liberty of conscience, and not of worldly affairs. In bodily business he is to be governed by Magistrates and laws. This doctrine of yours is very licentious, and tendeth too much to carnal and corporal liberty, and in deed is a very perilous doctrine for all states. Not one title in God's word doth constrain either the Magistrate, or the Church from turning carnal liberty to the spiritual service of God, or bodily labour to divine worship, as those do that cause men to abstain from corporal labour, that they may hear the word of God, and worship him in the congregation. And why may not the Church as well restrain them from working any part of the day, as it may do the most part of it, for you confess, that it is in the power of the Church to appoint so many days in the week, or in the year, in the which the congregation should assemble to hear the word of God, and receive the Sacraments, and offer up prayers unto God, as it shall think good, according to those rules which are before alleged: and this it can not do, unless in the same days during all that time, (which is no small portion of the day) it restrain them from bodily labour. Wherefore this being no commandment, that they shall labour six days in the week, but a signification that so many days they may labour: as the same God that gave this commandment hath done before in the old law, so may the Churches likewise for the increase of godliness and virtue, and edification, appoint some of those six days, to be bestowed in prayers, hearing the word, administration of the sacraments, and other holy actions. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 120. about the midst. And if it be lawful to abridge the liberty of the Church in this point, and in stead that the Lord saith: Six days thou mayest labour if thou wilt, to say, Thou shalt not labour six days: I do not see why the Church may not as well, where as the Lord saith, thou shalt rest the seventh day, command, that thou shalt not rest the seventh day: for if the Church may restrain the liberty that God hath given them, it may take away the yoke also that God hath put upon them. Io. Whitgifte. The Church is not abridged of her liberty in this point, but useth her liberty in appointing some of these days to the worshipping of GOD, and the instruction of his people: which should not be counted a bondage or servitude to any man. To rest the seventh day is commanded: to labour six days is but permitted: he that for biddeth rest on the seventh day, doth directly against the commandment: so doth not he that restraineth men from bodily labour in any of the six days, and therefore the reason is not like. And yet the commandment of bodily rest upon the seventh day, in sundry cases may of a man's self, much more at a lawful commandment of a Magistrate in necessity be broken. In things indifferent private men's wills are subject to such as have authority over them, therefore they aught to consent to their determination in such matters, except they will show themselves to be wilful, which is a great fault, and deserveth much punishment. But hitherto you have not replied to any Answer made to the Admonition. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 173. in the latter end. This is no restraint for any man from serving of God any day in the week else. For the jews had divers other feasts, which they by God's appointment observed, notwithstanding these words, Six days. etc. T. C. Pag. 120. Sect. 1 And where as you say in the. 173. page, that notwithstanding this fourth commandment, the jews had certain other feasts which they observed: In deed the Lord which gave this general law, might make as many exceptions as he thought good, and so long as he thought good: but it followeth not because the Lord did it, that therefore the Church may do it, unless it hath commandment and authority from God so to do. As when there is any general plague or judgement of God, either upon the Church, or coming towards it, the Lord commandeth in such a case, that they should sanctify a general fast, and proclaim ghnatsarah, which signifieth 2. joel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works, & is the same Hebrew word wherewith those feast days are noted in the law, wherein they should rest: the reason of which commandment of the Lord was, that as they abstained that day, as much as might be conveniently from meat, so they might abstain from their daily works, to the end they might bestow the whole day in hearing the word of God, and humbling themselves in the congregation, confessing their faults, and desiring the Lord to turn away from his fierce wrath. In this case the Church having commandment to make a holiday, may and ought to do it, as the Church which was in Babylon did, during the time of their captivity. But where it is destitute of a commandment, it may not presume by any decree to restrain that liberty which the Lord hath given. Io. Whitgifte. When you are convinced by manifest Scripture, as you are in this matter, than you fly to your newly devised distinctions, as you do in this place, saying: The Lord which gave this general law, might make as many exceptions as he thought good, but to no purpose, for you can not show in the whole Scripture, where God hath made any law or ordinance against his own commandment. And surely in this point you have greatly overshot yourself, being content rather to grant contrariety to be in the Scripture, than to yield to a manifest and known truth. The Church in appointing holidays, doth follow the example of God himself, and therefore Tract. 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for her doings, and of the authority of the Church Not man's liberty restrained. in such matters I have spoken in an other place: And I have also a little before declared, what kind of liberty the Church may not restrain: and I add that every private man's consent, is in the consent of the Church, as it is in the consent of the Parliament, The replier bringeth authority against himself. & therefore no man's liberty otherwise restrained than he hath consented unto. That in the second of the Prophet joel maketh against you directly: for it showeth that upon just occasion, the Church may inhibit men from labour even in the sire days, notwithstanding it be said, Six days thou shalt labour. etc. And to The jews aponynted to themselves holy days. the intent no man should doubt of the liberty of the Church héerem, or of the practice of this liberty, let the ninth chapter of Esther be perused, and therein it will appear that in remembrance of their great delivery from the treason of Haman, the jews by the commandment of Mordecai, did solemnize and keep holydaye the fourteenth and fifteenth day of the month Ader, every year. But if neither the ordinances of God himself, nor the words of his Prophets, nor the examples of his Apostles, nor the practice of his Church from the beginning will take any place with you, you are no man for me to deal with. ¶ Of Saints days. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. T. C. Page. 120. Sect. ult. Now that I have spoken generally of holidays, I come unto the Apostles and other saints days, which are kept with us. And though it were lawful for the Church to ordain holidays to our saviour Christ, or to the blessed Trinity, yet it is not therefore lawful to institute holidays to the Apostles and other Samctes, or to their remembrance. For although I confess as much as you say in the. 153. page, that the Church of England doth not mean by this keeping of holidays, that the Saints should be honoured, or as you allege in. 175. and 176. pages, that with us the Saints are not prayed unto, or that it doth propound them as meritorious, yet that is not enough. For as we reason against the Popish purgatory, that it is therefore nought, for as much as neither in the old Testament, nor in the new, there is any mention of prayer at any time for the dead, (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogative. so may it be reasoned against these holidays ordained for the remembrance of the Saints, that for so much as the old people did never keep any feast or holiday for the remembrance either of Moses, or Daniel, or job, or Abraham, or David, or any other how holy or excellent soever they were: nor the Apostles, nor the Churches in their time never▪ instituted any, either to keep the remembrance of Stephen, or of the Virgin Mary, or of john Baptist, or of any other notable and rare parsonage, that the instituting and erecting of them now, and this attempt by the Churches which followed, which have not such certain and undoubted interpreters of the will of God, as the Prophets and Apostles were, which lived in those Churches, is not without some note of presumption, for that it undertaketh those things which the Primitive Church in the Apostles times (having greater gifts of the spirit of God, than they that followed them had) dared not venture upon. Io. Whitgifte. Purgatory is made a matter of salvation or damnation, as all other doctrines of the Popes be: and therefore a negative reason (such as you use) is sufficient enough to improve it: But holidays in our Church have no such necessity ascribed unto them, only they are thought very profitable to the edifying of God's people, and therefore such negative reasons prevail not against them, no more than they do against other constitutions of the Church pertaining to edifying, order, or comeliness, whereof there is no mention made in the word of God. And therefore nothing that is here spoken by you can take any hold. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 175. Sect. 1 Neither are they called by the name of any Saint in any other Why the name of Saints are given to our holidays. respect, than that the Scriptures which that day are read in the Church, be concerning that Saint, and contain either his calling, preaching, persecution, martyrdom, or such like. T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1 Moreover, I have showed before, what force the name of every thing hath, to 'cause men to think so of every thing, as it is named, and therefore although you say in the. 175. page that in calling these holidays the days of such or such a Saint, there is nothing else inent, but that the Scriptures which are that day read concern that Saint, and contain either his calling, preaching, persecution, Martyrdom. etc. yet every one doth not understand so much. For besides that the corrupt custom of Popery hath carried their minds to an other interpretation, the very name and appellation of the day teacheth otherwise. For seeing that by the days dedicated to the Trinity, and those that are consecrated to our saviour Christ, are in that they be called Trinity day, or the Nativity day of our saviour Christ by and by taken to be instituted to the honour of our saviour Christ, and of the Trinity, so likewise the people when it is called saint Paul's day, or the blessed Virgin Mary's day, can understand nothing thereby, but that they are instituted to the honour of saint Paul, or of the Uyrgin Mary, unless they be otherwise taught. And if you say, let them so be taught, I have answered, that the teaching in this land, can not by any order which is yet taken, come to the most part of those which have drunk this poison, and where it is taught, yet were it good that the names were abolished, that they should not help to unteach that which the preaching teacheth in this behalf. Io. Whitgifte. You have so dismembered my book, in taking here a piece and there a piece, to answer as it pleaseth you, and in leaving out what you list, that you rather make a new discourse of your own, than a Reply to any thing that I have set down. Touching the names of the holidays (which you mislike) I have told the cause why they be so called, which cause you can not improve, and therefore you fall again to your accustomed conjectures, and suppositions, which are but very simple and slender arguments. What if every one doth not understand so much? must the Church altar her decrees and orders, for every particular man's abusing or not understanding them? He that is most ignorant may learn and know why they be so called, if he be disposed: if he be not, the fault is his own, the name of the day is not the worse to be liked. You might much better reason against the names of Sunday, Monday, and Saturday, which be Heathenish and profane names, yet I suppose that there is no man so mad, as to think that those days be instituted and used of Christians to the honour of the Sun, of the Moon, and of Saturn. This is but to play the part of a quarreler (as I have sundry times told you) to cavil at the name, when you can not reprove the matter. Those days be rather retained in the Church, to root out such superstitious opinions, by the preaching of the word, and the reading of the Scriptures: Neither can any man that understandeth English, and frequenteth the common and public prayers, in those holidays (except he be wilful) be so affected as you seem to suspect. Trinity sunday, the Nativity of our Saviour Christ, and such like, although we honour the Trinity, and our Saviour Christ in them, as we do in all other, yet have they their names especially, because the Scriptures then read in the Church, concern the Trinity, and the Nativity of our Saviour Christ. Augustine ad januar. 119. saith thus of the day of the Nativity of Christ: here first August. it behoveth that thou know the day of the Nativity of the Lord, not to be celebrated in a Sacrament or figure, but only that it is called back into remembrance, that he is born, and for this there needeth nothing, but that the day yearly be signified by solemn devotion, wherein the thing was done. There is no place in this land so destitute of instructions, either by preaching or reading, that any man can justly plead ignorance in such matters, and therefore seeing you have no other arguments against holidays, but conjectures, and surmises, and they false and untrue, or at the lest not sufficient to altar a profitable order in the Church, holidays may still remain and stand in their former force and strength. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 121. Sect. 2. Furthermore seeing the holidays be ceremonies of the Church, I see not why we may not here rue Augustives complaint, that the estate of the jews was more tolerable than ours is (I speak in this point of holidays) for if their holidays and ours be accounted, we shall be found (*) It will be sound otherwise. to have more than double as many holidays as they had. And as for all the commodities which we receive by them, whereby M. Doctor goeth about to prove the goodness and lawfulness of their institution, as that the Scriptures are there read & expounded, the patience of those Saints in their persecution and martyrdom, is to the edifying of the Church remembered, and yearly renewed. I say that we might have all those commodities without all those dangers which I have spoken of, and without any keeping of yearly memory of those Saints, and as it falls out in better and more profitable sort. For as I said before (*) Very absurdly. of the keeping of Easter, that it tieth, and (as it were) fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a sew days, which should reach to all our age and time of our life: so those celebrations of the memories of Saints and Martyrs, streyghten our consideration of them unto those days which should continually be thought of, and daily as long as we live. And if that it be thought so good and profitable a thing that this remembrance of them should be upon those days wherein they are supposed to have died, yet it followeth not therefore, that after this remembrance is celebrated by hearing the Scriptures concerning them, and prayers made to follow their constancy, that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sort, as men should be debarred of their bodily labours, and of exercising their daily vocations. Io. Whitgifte. Augustine speaketh not of holidays in that place, but of other unprofitable ceremonies Epist. ad la. 119. used in particular Churches, neither grounded of the Scriptures, determined by Counsels, nor confirmed by the custom of the whole Church. But the holidays that we retain, being not only confirmed by the custom of the whole Church, but also profitable for the instruction of the people, and used for public prayer, administration of the Sacraments, and preaching the word, can not be called burdens, except it be a burden to serve God in praying, in celebrating his sacraments, and in hearing his word. And whereas you say, that if their holidays & ours be accounted, we shall be found to have The jews had me holidays than we. more than double as many holidays as they had, you speak that which you are not able to justify. In the. 23, of Leviticus there is appointed unto the jews the feast of Easter: the feast of unleavened bread: the feast of first fruits: Whitsuntide: the feast of trumpets: the feast of reconciliation, and the feast of Tabernacles: whereof the feast of unleavened bread, and the feast of Tabernacles had each of them seven days annexed unto them. And if you will add to these, judiths' feast, chap. 16. the Machabies feast. 1. Macha. chap. 4. which continued eight days together, and Hesters feast, chap. 9 which continued two days, you shall find that our holidays be some what short in number of there's: so far are we from having more than double as many as they had. But your spirit is acquainted with such untrue assertions. But you say, we might have all these commodities without all those dangers. etc. and why not as well this way which the whole Church hath from time to time allowed, as that way which certain particular people, of their own heads have devised? There is nothing that you have to say against these days, but only their names, and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them unto those days, etc. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour, to serve God: all which I have answered before, and the latter in part you confess: for you would have certain days appointed for public prayer, the celebration of the sacraments, & hearing the word, and you seem not to deny but that the remembrance of Saints and Martyrs may be kept, only you mislike, that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours, & exercising their daily vocations. Well I perceeve that something you would find fault with, if you knew what. They are not so bound from labour (as it appeareth in the laws of this Church) but that they may do their necessary business: and in deed they are so far from scrupulosity in this point, that all the punishments appointed can not keep a number of them from their worldly affairs, not in the very time of public prayers, and preaching of the word: and yet I see no cause why they may not justly be wholly debarred (except some urgent occasion require sometime the contrary) from their bodily labours in such days: for are not the householders bound of duty as well to instruct their families, as the Pastor is bound to instruct them? and when is there a more convenient time than in such days? If you have such a regard to their worldly affairs, is it not more commodious for them to abstain wholly from work upon these Holidays, when they fall, than twice or thrice every week half the day? Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly, so is it weak, both in the respect of God, and of the world also. Your imagination that the keeping of Easter doth fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason. few days. etc. and so likewise the rest of the Holidays, I have answered before, it is a most vain reason, and you might as well say, that there ought to be no certain times appointed for the receiving of the holy Communion, because the meditation of the death and passion of Christ, and the application of the same, is fettered to these certain days, which should continually be thought of, and daily as long as we live. The same might you say likewise of the Sabbath day. But you ought to know that the especial celebrating of the memory of Christ's resurrection, once in the year, is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that day only, than the receiving of the Communion once in the month, is a strayghting of our consideration of the death and passion of Christ, to that time only, wherein we receive the holy Sacrament: By this reason of yours we must either have such memories celebrated at all times, or at no time. But wise men can consider how far you wander for want of reason. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Jerome writing upon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians, saith on this Jerome. sort: If it be not lawful to observe days, months, times, and years, we also fall into the like fault which observe the passion of Christ, the Sabbath day, and the time of Lent, the feasts of Easter, and of Pentecoste, and other times appointed to Martyrs, according to the manner and custom of every nation, to the which he that will answer simply, will say, that our observing of days is not the same with the jewish observing, for we do not celebrated the feast of unleavened bread, but of the resurrection & death of Christ. etc. And lest the confused gathering together of the people should diminish the faith in Christ, therefore certain days are appointed that we might all meet together in one place, not because those days be more holy, but to the intent that in what day soever we meet, we may rejoice to see one another. etc. Augustine in like manner Lib. 18. de civitate Dei, cap. 27. saith, That we honour Augustine. the memories of Martyrs, as of holy men, and such as have striven for the truth, even to death. etc. The same Augustine in his book Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca 16. expounding the words of the Apostle: You observe days, years and times, writeth thus. But one may think that he speaketh of the Sabbath: do not we say that those times aught not to be observed, but the things rather that are signified by them? for they did observe them servilely, not understanding what they did signify and prefigurate, this is that that the Apostle reproveth in them, & in all those that serve the creature rather than the Creator: for we also, solemnly celebrated the Sabbath day, and Easter, and all other festival days of Christians: but because we understand whereunto they do appertain, we observe not the times but those things which are signified by the times, etc. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1 Now whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Jerome to prove that in the Churches in their times, there were holy days kept besides the lords day, he might have also cited Ignatius, and Tertullian, and Cyprian, which are of greater aunctencie, and would have made more for the credit of his cause, seeing he measureth all his truth almost through the whole book, by the crooked measure and yard of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holidays (especially of the Easter and Pentecoste) are very ancient, and that these holidays, for the remembrance of Martyrs were used of long time, but these abuses were no ancienter than other were, grosser also than this was, as I have before declared and were easy further to be showed if need required, and therefore (*) An unlearned shift. I appeal from these examples to the Scriptures, and to the examples of the perfectest Church that ever was, which was that in the Apostles times. Io. Whitgifte. I know that I might have alleged many other authorities for the proof of The Repliee appealeth iton ancient authority. this matter, but I thought these two sufficient (as they be in deed) in such a matter as this is, and your lightly rejecting of them will win no credit to your cause, among wise and learned men. You may easily perceive by the words of both these Authors that these days in their time were rightly and without all superstition used. But you do well to appeal from these examples, and from all other ancient authority of learned men: for you know full well your lack of ability to maintain this and other your opinions by the testimonies of ancient writers: nay you can not but confess that the old learned Fathers are utterly against you, which is the cause why you appeal from them: but it is an unlearned shirt. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Page▪ 122. Sect. 1 And yet also I have to say that the observation of those feasts, first of all was much better than of later times. For Socrates confesting that neither our Saviour Christ, nor the Apostles li. 5. ca 22. did decree or institute any holidays, or lay any yoke of bondage upon the necks of those which came to the preaching, addeth further that they did use first to observe the holidays by custom, and (*) Socrates' words untruly reported. that as every man was disposed at home: which thing if it had remained in that freedom, that it was done by custom and not by commandment, at the will of every one, and not by constraint, it had been much better than it is now, and had not drawn such dangers upon the posterity, as did after ensue and we have the experience of. Io. Whitgifte. Surely they were never better, nor more pure from all superstition, and other errors than they be now in this Church: and therefore in that respect there is no cause to complain. You do not truly report Socrates words, nor yet his meaning, for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. . Cap▪ 22. that every man at home kept those days as he was disposed: but thus he saith, Wherefore neither the Apostle, nor the Gospel, do at any time lay a yoke of bondage upon them, which come unto the preaching of the Gospel, but men themselves every one in their country, according as they thought good, celebrated the feast of Easter, and other holidays of custom, for the intermission of their labours, and remembrance of the healthful passion: his meaning is not, that every private man in his own house kept Easter, and the other feasts as him listed: but that every Church appointed such an order and time for the same, as it thought convenient: and that this is his meaning, that which followeth in that Chapter, and expresseth his own opinion of this matter, doth evidently declare. His words be these: Surely I am of this opinion, that as many other things in diverse places have been brought in of custom, so the feast of Easter had a private or peculiar observation with every particular people of custom, because none of the Apostles (as I have said) did make any law hereof, etc. For his whole drift is to prove that the feast of Easter concerning the day and time, was diversly observed in divers Churches and Countries: but he neither can prove, nor goeth about to prove, that there was any Church wherein it was not observed. And I have before declared that the feast of Easter was observed by the Apostles, and since that time continued. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 177. Sect. 1 & Pag. 178. Sect. 1. etc. Other reform Churches also have days ascribed to Sainets Bullinger. aswell as we, as it may appear by these words of Bullinger writing Observing of holidays in other reform churches upon the. 14. to the Rom. In the ancient writers, as Eusebius and Augustine, thou mayst find certain memorials appointed to certain holy men, but after an other manner, not much differing from ours which we as yet retain in our Church of Tigurie, for we celebrated the nativity of Christ, his Circumcision, Resurrection, and Ascension, the coming of the holy Ghost, the feasts also of the virgin Mary, john baptist, Magdalene, Stephen, and the other Apostles: yet not condemning those which observe none, but only the Sabbath day. For perusing old Monuments, we find that this hath always been left free to the Churches, that every one should follow that in these things, that should be most best and convenient. M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco, speaking of holidays, Bucer. sayeth: That in the Scriptures there is no express commandment of them: it is gathered notwithstanding (sayeth he) from the example of the old people, that they are profitable for us, to the increase of godliness, which thing also experience proveth. To be short, Illyricus writing upon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Observing of days considered four ways. this division of observing days and times. The first is natural, as of summer, spring time, winter, etc. time of planting, time of sowing, time of reaping, etc. 1 The second is civil. 2 The third Ecclesiastical, as the Sabbath day, and other days, wherein 3 is celebrated the memory of the chief histories or acts of Christ, which be profitable for the instruction of the simple, that they may the better remember when the Lord was born, when he suffered, when he ascended up into heaven, and be further taught in the same. The fourth superstitious, when we put a necessity, worshipping, merit 4 or righteousness in the observing of time: and this kind of observing days and times is only forbidden in this place. Thus you see by the judgements of all these learned men, that days ascribed unto Saints, is no such matter, as aught to make men separate themselves from the Church, and abstain from allowing by subscription, so worthy and godly a book, as the book of common prayer is, much less to make a Schism in the Church for the same. T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers, M. Bullingers, and Illyricus allowance of them, if they mean such a celebration of them, as that in those days the people may be assembled, and those parts of the Scriptures which concern them whose remembrance is solemnized, red & expounded, and yet men not debarred after from their daily works, it is so much the less matter: if otherwise that good leave they give the Churches to descent from them in that point. I do take it granted unto me, being by the grace of God one of the Church. Although as touching M. Bullinger, it is to be observed, since the time that he written that upon the Romans, there are about. 35. years, since which time although he hold still that the feasts kept unto the Lord, as of the Nativity, Easter and Pentecoste, dedicated unto the Lord may be kept, yet he deemeth flatly, that it is lawful to keep holy the days of the Apostles, as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur. & alianim Eccles. cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church joined with others. Io. Whitgifte. How perfect an Answer this is, to these learned men's authorities, let the learned Reader judge. You are not a Church, but a member of the Church, and therefore seeing the matter is such as the Church may take an order in, you aught to submit yourself to the determination of that Church in such matters, whereof you are a member. What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented unto, I know not, but certain it is that these be his own words, And that when he writ them he was of the same opinion that we are at this time in this Church of England. Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in like manner writing upon the fourth to the Galatians, Caluine. doth not disallow this kind of observing days, his words be these: When as holiness is attributed to days, when as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake, when days are made a piece of divine worship, than days are wickedly observed, etc. But when we have a difference of days, laying no burden of necessity on men's consciences, we make no difference of days, as though one were more holy than an other, we put no religion in them, nor worshipping of God, but only we observe them for order and concord sake, so that the observing of days with us is free, and without all superstition. And again upon the. 2. to the Colloss. But some will say, that we as yet have some kind of observing days: I answer that we observe them not, as though there were any religion in them, or as though it were not then lawful to labour, but we have a respect of policy & orders, not of days. And in his Institutions upon the fourth commandment, Neither do I so speak of the seventh day, that I would bind the Church only unto it, for I do not condemn those Churches which have other solemn days to meet in, so that they be void of superstition, which shall be if they be ordained only for the observing of discipline and order. T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine, at the practice of him and the Church where he lined was and i , to admit no one holy day besides the lords day, so can it not be showed out of any part of his works (as I think) that he approved those holy days which are now in question. He sayeth in deed in his Institution: that he will not condemn those Churches which use them: no more do we the Church of England, neither in this nor in other things which are meet to be reform. For it is one thing to mystic, an other thing to condemn, and it is one thing to condemn some thing in the Church, and an other to condemn the Church for it. And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians, and Collossians, there is no mention of any holidays either to Saints, or to any other, and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches, but the church of Geneva, and answereth not to those which object against the keeping of Saints days, or any holidays (as they are called) besides the lords day, but against those which would not have the lords day kept still as a day of rest from bodily labour, as it may appear both by his place upon the Collossians, and especially in that which is alleged out of his Institutions: and that he means nothing less, than such holidays as you take upon you to detende, it may appear first in the place of the Collossians, where he sayeth, that the days of rest which are used of them are used for policy sake. Now it is well known, that as it is policy and a way to preserve the estate of things and to keep them in a good continuance and success, that as well the beasts as the men which labour six days should rest the seventh: so it tendeth to no policy nor wealth of the people, or preservation of good order, that there should be so many days, wherein men should cease from work, being a thing which breeds idleness, and consequently poverty, besides other disorders and vices, which always go in company with idleness. And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himself yet more plainly when he sayeth, that those odd holidays, then are without superstition, when they be ordained only for the observing of discipline and order, whereby he giveth to understand, that he would have them no further holidays, than for the time which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the church, and that for the rest, they should be altogether as other days free to be laboured in. And so it appeareth, that the holidays ascribed unto Saints by the service book, is a just cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe unto the service book. Io. Whitgifte. What soever M calvin's practice was in the Church of Geneva, yet in these places doth his judgement evidently appear, neither doth a man always use that himself, which he alloweth in an other: for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place, that is not so in an other. He that condemneth the thing as unlawful, must also condemn the Churches that use the same, though not wholly, yet in that point. For as much therefore as M. Caluine did not condemn other Churches for observing such days, it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the observing of those days in those Churches. In deed it is one thing to mislike, an other thing to condemn, but he that maketh such a stir in the Church for these matters, as you do, and that so disorderly, can not be said only to mislike, but also to condemn. The place of M. Caluine, out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not ment only of the lords day, but of other days also observed in other reform Churches, and in that place he maketh a general answer as it were for them all, as it is soon perceived by such as will read that place. He also that shall per use his words upon the second chapter to the Collossians, shall find the like sense in them. In that he sayeth they be used for order and policy, we do not descent from him, but think so in like manner, howbeit we understand as he doth Ecclesiastical order and policy, for in the words that go before the place to the Galatians, he sayeth, that the observing of days doth also pertain, ad Regimen Ecclesiae, to the government Calvin. in 4. Gal. of the Church. What better order and policy can there be, than to have certain days appointed wherein the people may rest from bodily labour, to labour spiritually, to hear the word of God, etc. which M. Caluine called order and policy, and not the external rest of the Sabbath day, which is a commandment of God, and no constitution of the Church, neither hath the Church any respect to worldly policy in appointing of Holidays, but to Ecclesiastical policy, which consists in hearing the words, ministering the Sacraments, public Prayers, and other such like godly actions. The place in his Institutions, convince all your shifting conjectures of mere folly, for therein he plainly declareth his allowing in other Churches of oh Holidays than the Sunday, which you have denied to be his opinion in the former two places. I have told you what he means by discipline and order or policy: whereby he giveth to understand nothing less than that which you would conclude, being but your own devise to serve for a poor shift at a need. And although the matter is not great, whether they labour or not, yet the law of the Prince, and the order of the Church is to be observed. And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proved, why you aught not to subscribe to the service Book. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the end you add: (patched if not altogether, yet the greatest piece out of the Pope's Portuis.) To this I answer briefly, it maketh no matter of whom it was invented, in what Book it is contained: so that it be good and profitable, and consonant to God's word. Well sayeth Ambrose, Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est. All truth, of whom soever it is spoken is of the holy ghost. T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Now whereas M. Doctor sayeth, it maketh no matter whither these things be taken out of the Portuis, so they be good etc. I have proved first they are not good, then if they were yet being not necessary, and abused horribly by the Papists, other being as good and better than they, aught not to remain in the church. Io. Whitgifte. Your reasons be not sufficient to prove them not to be good: the abuse hath not been such, but that it being removed, the thing may still remain as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 judgement. convenient: the judgement of the Church in determining what is best and most fittest in matters of order, policy, and government (not being against the word of God) is to be preferred before any private man's opinion, and imagination. Chap. 2. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying, all truth of whom soever it be said, is of the holy ghost: if I were disposed to move questions, I could demand of him which careth not of whom he have Mark. 1. the truth, so he have it, what our Saviour Christ meant to refuse the testimony of Devils, when they gave a clear testimony▪ that he was the Son of God, and the holy one? And what S. Paul meant to be angry, and to take it so grievously, that the Pithonisse said, he and his companion Act. 16. were the servants of the high God, which preached unto them the way of salvation? Here▪ was truth and yet rejected, and I would know whether M. Doctor would say, that these spoke by the spirit of God. Thus whilst without all judgement, he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures, and that of the worst, as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse, and leave the silver, within a while he will make no great difference, not only between the Prophets and Apostles, and profane writers, as Aristotle, and Plato, but not between them and those, which speak not by the conduit and leading of the holy ghost, but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirit. Io. Whitgifte. Christ liked not the truth being uttered of the Devil, because he spoke it of an evil meaning: but he liked very well the same testimony of truth afterwards uttered by Peter sincerely. Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neither did he mislike the words because they were abused by the Devil before. But I will leave Devils, and speak of men, of whom I think Ambrose ment, although the truth is truth of whom soever it is uttered: but to Answer for Ambrose: he hath said nothing in that sentence which may not be justified. M. Caluine (upon these words, 1. Corinth. 12. And no man can say that jesus is the Caluine. Lord, but by the holy Ghost) sayeth thus. It may be demanded, whether the wicked have the Spirit of God, seeing they sometime testify plainly and well of Christ. I answer that there is no doubt but that they have, so much as concerneth that effect: but it is an other thing to have the gift of regeneration, than to have the gift of bore understanding, wherewith judas was endued, when he preached the Gospel. M. Martyr also upon the same words, after he hath recited the opinions of other, P. Martyr. maketh this resolution. But when I weigh this matter with myself, I perceive that the Apostle here doth speak, not of the Spirit which doth regenerate, or of that grace which justifieth, but of the gifts which are freely given which may happen as well to the good as to the evil. Therefore I think that Paul spoke simply, that he might declare, that by what means soever we speak well of Christ, it is of the holy Ghost, of whom Omne verum à spiritu sancto est. cometh all truth, as all untruth proceedeth of the Devil who is the father of lies. You see therefore that Ambrose is not of this judgement alone, and that his saying is very true. The Doctoures that I have used, in this cause, be Jerome and Augustine, which be not the worst, but comparable with the best. I have rehearsed out of them whole sentences, and perfit, the which you are not able to answer: the rest of your opprobrious words, wherewith you conclude this question of holy days, I leave for other to consider of, as notes of your spirit. And to the intent that the Reader may understand, that it was not for nought, that you set not down my Book together with your Reply, I will here set down such portions of my book touching this matter, as you have not answered unto, but closely passed over, not thinking that any man should have espied your lack of ability to answer them. Chap. 2. the. 10. Division. Admonition. They should first prove that holy days ascribed to Sayncts, prescript services for them, etc. are agreeable to the written word of the Almighty. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 153. Sect. 4. & Pag. 154. Sect. 1 Holy days ascribed to Saints, wherein not the Saints, but God is honoured, and the people edified, by reading and hearing such stories and places of Scripture, as pertain to the martyrdom, calling▪ and function of such Saints, or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture, must needs be according to God's word. For to honour God, to worship him, to be edified by the stories and examples of Saints out of the Scripture, cannot be but consonant to the Scripture. The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of God's word, and not one piece thereof, but it is most consonant unto the same. If there be any that is repugnant, set it down, that we may understand it. I told you before, that touching the days and times and other Ceremonies, the church hath authority to determine what is most convenient, as it hath done from time to time. S. August. in his epistle Augustine. ad jan. in the place before of me recited saith, that the passion of Christ, his resurrection, his ascension, & the day of the coming of the holy ghost (which we commonly call Whitsuntide) is celebrated, not by any commandment written, but by the determination of the church. And it is the judgement of all learned writers, that the church hath authority in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God. But of this I have spoken partly before, and intend to speak more largely thereof in the place following, where you again make mention of it. Admonition. In this book days are ascribed unto saints, & kept holy with fasts on their evens, & prescript service appointed for them, which beside that, they are of many superstitiously kept and observed, and also contrary to the commandment (z) Exo. 20. 9 Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. levit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God, Six days thou shalt labour: and therefore we for the superstition that is put in them, dare not subscribe to allow them. Answer to the Admo. page 173. sect. 2. &. pa. 174. 175. &. pa. 176. sect. 1. 2. Your collection hangeth not together, for how followeth this: these holidays be superstitiously observed of some, therefore you may not allow them? why should other men's superstition hinder you from lawfully using a lawful thing? The Sabbath day is superstitiously used of some: Abuse of things doth not condemn the things. so is the church, so is the crede, & the Lords prayer, & many things else, and yet I hope you will subscribe to them. You heap up a number of places in the margin to prove that which no man doubteth of, that is, this portion of the commandment, Six days shalt thou labour. etc. the meaning of which words is this, that seeing God hath permitted unto us six days to do our own works in, we aught the seventh day wholly to serve him. Every man hath not bodily labour to do, but may serve God aswell in these six days, as in the seventh. And certainly he doth not by any means break this commandment, which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serve god▪ For this is the commandment, Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day: as for this (Six days thou shalt work) is no commandment, but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth, than to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the service of God: And it is as much as if he should say: Six days thou mayst work: & so do some translate the Hebrew word. The place alleged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose, there is not one word there spoken of any holy days dedicated to saints, but only the Lord signifieth, that their sacrifices & feast days were not acceptable unto him, because they were done in hypocrisy, & without Esay condemneth the manner of sacrificing. faith: so that he reproveth modum, not factum, their manner of sacrificing (that is) their hypocritical kind of worshipping him. In the second of Esdras. 1. in the place by you quoted. I see not one word that may serve for your purpose, the words you quote be these: I have led you through the sea, and have given you a sure way Vain quotation. since the beginning, I gave you Moses for a guide, and Aaron for a Priest. In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holidays, but of such as were observed among the jews, and abrogated by the coming of christ. And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth, that we which be strong, should not despise them that are weak, nor condemn them, though they use not the christian liberty in days and meats. That in the fourth to the Galat. You observe days, months, and times, and years. etc. Saint Augustine and januar. Episto. 119. expoundeth Augustine. on this sort. Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar, quia posterus dies est, aut quia luna sic fertur, vel proficiscar ut prospera cedant, quia ita se habet positio syderum, non agam hoc mense commertium, quia illa stella mihi agit mensem, vel agam quia suscepit mensem. I know there be other that do otherwise expound that place (and that truly) even as they do also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain jewish feasts, as Sabboths, new Moons, the feasts of Tabernacles, the year of jubilee, and such like abrogated by the gospel, and yet superstitiously observed of some. But these places can by no means be understood of the days observed by us, & called▪ by the names of saints days, for they were ordained since the writing of this epistle. And that you may understand the difference betwixt the festival days Difference betwixt the Papists holidays & ours. observed of the Papists, & the days allowed now in this Church: it is to be considered, First, that their Saints days were appointed for the honouring and worshipping of the Saints, by whose names they were called: ours be ordained for the honouring of God, for public prayer, and edifying the people by reading the Scriptures, and preaching. 2 The Papists in their Saint's days prayed unto the Saints: we only pray unto God in Christ's name. 3 They had all things done in a strange tongue without any edifying at all: we have the prayers and the Scriptures read in a tongue known, which can not be without great commodity to the hearers. 4 To be short, they in observing their days, think they merit thereby something at God's hands: We in observing our days, are taught far otherwise. The Church even from the beginning hath observed such feasts, as it may appear in good writers. Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fasting on the evens of such feasts, or rather abstaining from flesh, you know it is not for religion, but for policy, and as I think, the same is protested in that Act, where such kind of abstaining is established: And therefore these be but slender quarrels picked to disallow such a book. Io. Whitgifte. All this have you overskipped: for what cause, you know best yourself. ¶ What kind of preaching is most effectual. Tract. 11. The first Division. Admonition. The fifteenth and sixteenth. Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. . feeding the flock diligently, now teaching quarterly: then preaching 1. (o) Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season, now once in a month is thought sufficient, if twice, it is judged a work of supererogation▪ Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 82. Sect. ult. & Pag. 83. & Pag. 84. Sect. 1 These be but words of pleasure: God be thanked there be ministers (and such as you mislike of) which feed their flocks diligently, and preach in time, and out of time, according both to S. Peter's and S. Paul's meaning. But you must understand, that he doth not always feed the Who teacheth best. best, nor take the greatest pains, which preacheth most often, but he that preacheth most learnedly, most pithyly, most orderly, most discreetly, most to edifying. It may be that he which preacheth but once in the month, taketh One learned sermon better than many unlearned. more pains for his sermon, hath more pith and learning in his sermon, edifieth more by his sermon, than you do for all your sermons, in all your sermons, or by all the sermons that you make in the whole year, be they never so many. For what is it to preach every Frivolous and contentious sermons. day, and to spend the time with words only, or with bitter invectives against certain trifles, and against superiors? Such sermons do not edify, but destroy, do not work in the hearts of the hearers faith & charity, but either contempt of religion, or else contempt of superiors, contempt of good orders, yea hatred, malice, undiscrete wrath, coloured with a pretence of zeal. Truly such sermons seldom or never work any good effect: many women in London could on that sort occupy the tyme. Wherefore I am fully persuaded, that he cometh nearer to the fulfilling of the mind of the Apostle, which diligently studying & labouring continually for knowledge, doth orderly, learnedly, and effectually preach once in the month, than such as backbiting at other men's tables, running all the day long up and down the streets, seldom or never studying, do negligently, unorderly, verbally (if I may so term it) preach every day twice. And yet I know the oftener a man doth preach (the former circumstances being considered) the better it is. But of every one it will be required according to his talon: & not he that speaketh most, but laboureth most to speak, not he that preacheth most often, but that preacheth most painfully, truly, and diligently, shall in that day be best accepted. That learned and ancient father M. Whithead hath sundry times lamented in my hearing (and I think there be other of his friends hath heard the same) the lose, frivolous, and unprofitable preaching of divers ministers in London. And I would to God it were better looked unto: then I think verily we should have less contention and more religion. T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 1 Here M. Doctor would feign (as it seemeth) if he durst, interpret diligent preaching & preaching in season, and out of season, to be preaching once a month. But because he dare not say so directly, he compasseth it about, and first putteth the case of one preaching twice a day, verbally, and with small substance of matter, and of an other preaching but once in a month, and doth it pythyly, and orderly, and discreetly, and concludeth, that such a Sermon once in a month, is nearer the mind of the Apostle, than all those other Sermons made twice every day: and yet the case is not so clear, as he maketh it. For granting that those (which he calleth verbal sermons) have some goodness and edifying, it must be very simple & slender meat, which is not better being given every day, than the best and dayntiest meat once only in a month. For with the one a man may live although he be not liking, with the other he being once fed, is afterward fai shed. But how if the case be put, that the monthly and long laboured sermons, as they are called, have as little, and less good wholesome doctrine in them, than the sermons which are preached every day. Assuredly for the most of those that go so long with a Sermon, and which I know and have heard: when they come to bring it forth: bring forth oftentimes more wy e, and unprofitable matter, than any good and timely fruit, or wholesome substantial doctrine. And no marvel, for therein the word of God is fulfilled, which declareth that the talentes of God's gifts and grace, are increased by continual tinuall use, and laying out of them, and of the other side diminished, and in the end taken quite away, when as they are suffered to lie so long rusting, as it were digged in the ground. Io. Whitgifte. M. Doctor's words he plain: your dealing with them can not obscure them: That which I have spoken of verbal Sermons, is notoriously known There is not the like reason of external and spiritual food. to be true. What I have said of monthly Sermons, I refer to other men's judgement. The similitude betwixt the external meat that feedeth the body, and the word of God that feedeth the soul, doth fail in many things, and especially in these: that the meat of the body remaineth not in the stomach, but passeth through: the word of God continueth and endureth in the mind for ever. The meat of the body, the better it is digested, the lesser while it doth continued: The word of God the better it is understood and remembered, the longer it remains. The meat of the body once taken, serveth but for the present time, be it never so good and wholesome: The word of God once preached, and faithfully received, doth nourish and feed continually: therefore one learned, effectual, orderly Sermon, preached once in a month, containeth more nouryshement in it, feedeth longer, worketh more in the hearts of the hearers, edifyeth more, than all the unorderly, and verbal Sermons, I might also add contentious, that some preach in one whole year. But you compare the word of God, and the nutriment of the body together in most grossest manner, and in that wherein they are nothing like. What you think of those monthly, and long laboured sermons (as you call them) it skilleth not much, for you are in a heat, which hindereth true judgement. But I would have you, and all other to understand, that this which I speak of monthly sermons, I speak it in compar son, and not that I would have a man that is otherwise able, to preach but once in a month. I have showed the contrary in my Answer. Every man shall tender an account of his labour according to his talon. Wherefore you and your company which are so greatly delighted in spreading false rumours of other men, and seek to win credit unto yourselves, by diffaming of them, shall answer one day, to God and to me, for the great injury you have done me in that behalf. If it were lawful for me to boast of myself, I might justly say and prove it, that I have preached as many sermons as the most of you: God forgive me for my boasting, but you compel me. Well I confess that I have done no more than I aught to have done: And I beseech God to grant me no longer life, or joy in this world, than I desire to be vigilant and profitable in his Church. I would not be dumb and without a function as you are, and upon that occasion, for all the goods in England: For surely if those that preach not being able and once called thereunto, shall have an hard judgement: what shall become of such, as not only not preach themselves, but deface other men that preach, by backbiting and slandering, and spreading abroad false rumours upon them, to discredit both their people, and doctrine: and with sects & schisms rend in pieces the Church of Christ, and violently pluck down whatsoever other men have builded. O. T. C. these things would be considered in time. The second Division. T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 2. And here M. Doctor taketh occasion to utter his stomach against London▪ flinging of one side against the women, of the other side against the Ministers, whose diligence because it maketh M. Doctors negligence more to appear, as a dark and dus she colour, matched with that which is clear and lightsome, he doth go about to deface, with the untrue and slanderous surmise, of lose, negligent and unprofitable preaching. If there be some one such or two in London, t is too great injury therefore, to charge indefinitely the company of the ministers of London. Besides that, M. Doctor doth not see how first he accuseth the▪ Bishop or ever he beaware, both in ordaining such ministers, and not in reforming them, being so far out of order, and then the Archbishop, which doth not require this disorder at the Bishop's hand, 〈◊〉 (as he sayeth) this is so godly and heavenly an order, to have one Bishop over many ministers, and one archbishop over divers▪ Bishops, and if we shall esteem the pythinesse and fastness of preaching▪ by the fruits, as by the knowledge and sear▪ of God in the people of London, and by faithful and true hearts toward the Prince, and the Realm, I think that that which he termeth 〈◊〉, lose, and unprofitable preaching, wit fall out to be waightyer, and to leave a deeper print behind them, than those monthly sermons, which he speaketh of. And tte Ministers of London better ministers, which preach twice a day, than those which make the words of God novel and dainties, and as M. Latimer pleasantly said, Strawberries coming only at certain times of the year. Io. Whitgifte. I speak first of the Authors of the Admonition. Then I report M. Whithead his saying of divers preachers in London: which if you could have improved, I think you would. I know there be many grave, learned, wise and go re Preachers in London, which have greatly profited that place, and as instruments have wrought those good effects you speak of, in the hearts of many . But I know also, there be some others far unlike unto them in all respects, who by their undiscrete and lose dealing, have as much as yeth in them, wrought the contrary. If they have been suffered either through the negligence of archbishop, or Bishop, I excuse neither of them: I think they have good cause to take better heed hereafter. Touching the women of London, I have not said any thing to their dispraise, I know a number very honest and godly, and I know none that is evil. Only I require that modesty in some of them, that beseemeth sober matrons, and women pro essing the Gospel. It is not seemly for a woman to speak in the Church, not not that which is good: much less comely is it for her to sc i'd openly in the streets, or to be a common depraver of others at tables, and other meetings. There is no cause why I should bear a stomach 〈◊〉 London, which place I have always honoured, where I have many friends, to the which I have showed as many tokens of good will, as any one man of my ability: But if I admonish some of the Citizens, and bid them take heed, that they abuse not the Gospel to serve their affections, that they make it not a cloak for their contentions, that they wax not weary of it, and desire strange Doctrines, that they heap not up such Preachers unto themselves, as may serve their humours, that they show themselves more thankful for the Gospel, the which they have so long received, that they study for peace and quietness, that they grieve not the Prince in seeking alterations, by whom they enjoy the pure word of God, true use of his Sacraments, and syncers worshipping of him: To be short, if I move them to brotherly love, true obedience to their Superiors, and hatred of sects, and schisms, whereunto divers of them be too much drawn by such as you are: Do I utter my stomach against them? If either they or you take it so▪ then I answer that I must obey God rather than man: and prefer my Prince, before all my friends: But this is a piece of your Rhetoric, to draw into hatred: which I doubt not the godly will easily espy, and judge of your spirit accordingly. The third Division. Admonition. Nay some in the fullness of their blasphemy have said it, that much preaching bringeth the word of God into contempt, and that four preachers were enough for all London, so far are they from thinking it necessary, & seeking that every congregation should have a faithful pastor. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 167. Sect. 2. 3. If any have misliked often preaching, or have said, that much Uerball preachers. preaching bringeth the word of God into contempt, or that four preachers were enough for all London, they are to be blamed, (and that justly) and not the book, for it willeth no man to say so. But if any hath said, that some of those which use to preach often, by their lose, negligent, verbal, and unlearned Sermons, have brought the word of God into contempt, or that four godly, learned, pithy, diligent and discreet preachers, might do more good in London, than forty contentious, unlearned, verbal, and rash Preachers, they have said truly, and their saying might well be justified. Howbeit take heed that you slander no man, or unjustly seek the discredit of any, whilst you seek to utter your malice against that godly book. None that favoureth God's word (as I think) denieth that hearing the word of God, is the usual and ordinary means, whereby God useth to work faith in us, And that therefore Preachers be necessary. T. C. Page. 124. Lin. 10. Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh again in the. 167. page, but to this effect altogether, and almost in the same words. Io. Whitgifte. And yet is there something there, that would have been answered, but I take that as granted which is not answered. The fourth Division. Admonition. The seventeenth and eightenth. Then nothing taught but God's word, now princes pleasures, men's devices, Popish ceremonies and Antichristian rites in public pulpits defended. Then they sought (p) Phil. 2. 20. 21. them, now they seek theirs. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 84. Sect. 3. 4. 5. It had been well to let us understand what those Prince's pleasures The Church of England slandered by the Admonitors. be, what men's devices, what Popish ceremonies, what Antichristian rites, for now you have but slandered both the Prince & the whole state of religion, in this Church by public authority established: wherefore until you show some particulars, this shall be my answer, that Spiritus Dei neque est mendax, neque mordax, The spirit of God is neither a liar, nor a slanderer. It is but your pleasure thus generally to say: That then pastors sought their flocks, now they seek there's: for it is well known that there be Pastors which seek their flocks, and not there's. Hitherto (thanks be unto God) in all this discourse, there is not one piece of false doctrine of any substance ascribed to this Church of England by these libelers, & therefore it hath (as God will) the first note of the true church of Christ, that is, purity of doctrine. T. C. Pag. 124. Lin. 12. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page. I mind to say nothing, having before spoken of the faults, of the ceremonies and rites which are used with us. Io. Whitgifte. The Admonition says, that then nothing was taught but God's word, now Prince's pleasures, men's devices, popish ceremonies, and Antichristian rites, in public pulpits defended, and will neither you, nor they tell us, what those Prince's pleasures. etc. be? well, it is true that followeth in that part of my Answer: for there is nothing said to the contrary. Admonition. These and a great many other abuses are in the ministery remaining, which unless they be removed, and the truth brought in, not only God's justice shall be poured forth, but also God's Church in this realm shall never be builded. For if they which seem to be workinen, are no workmen indeed, but in name, or elf work not so diligently and in such order as the workmaster commandeth, it is not only unlikely that the building shall go forward, but altogether impossible that ever it shall be perfected. The way therefore to avoid these inconveniences, and to reform these deformities, is this: Your wisdoms have to remove Aduousons, Patronages, Impropriations, and bishops authority, claiming to themselves thereby right to ordain ministers, and to bring in that old and true election, which was accustomed to be (q) Act. 1. 26. &. 6. 2. 3. 14. 13. made by the congregation. You must displace those ignorant and unable ministers already placed, and in their rooms appoint such as both can and will by God's assistance (r) 1▪ Pet. 5. . feed the flock. You must pluck down and utterly overthrow without hope of restitution, the Court of Faculties, from whence not only licences to enjoy many benefices are obtained, as pluralities, Trialities, tot-quots. etc. but all things for the most part, as in the Court of Rome are set on sale, licences to marry, to eat flesh in times prohibited, 1. Pet. 5. 2. to lie from benefices and charges, and a great number beside, of such like abominations. Appoint to every congregation a learned and diligent preacher▪ Remove Homilies, Articles, injunctions, a prescript order of Service made out of the Mass book. Take away the lordship, the l ytering, the pomp, the idleness, & livings of bishops, but yet employ them to such ends as they were in the old Church appointed for. Let a lawful and a godly scigniorie look that they preach, not quarterly or monthly, but continually: not for filthy lucre sake, but of a ready mind. So God shall be glorified, your consciences discharged, and the flock of Christ (purchased (s) Acts. 20. 28 with his own blood) edified. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 86. & 87. Sect. 1. 2. What these great abuses by you hitherto alleged be, I trust you Discipline necessary. do now fully understand, surely except such factious libelers, such stirrers up of schisms, such disturbers of the peace of the church, such contemners of those that be in authority, be not only removed, but repressed, God will not only of his justice punish the magistrates of this Realm for their carelessness in this behalf, but also God's gospel will therein be as much defaced with factions, schisms, and heresies, as ever it was in the Pope's time, with superstition and idolatry. For surely these men that would be counted such perfect builders, Libelers be underminers▪ not builders. be but underminers and destroyers, and instruments of some greedy guts, and lusty toysters, who to maintain their pride, and joylity, seek for the spoil of the Church, and indeed the utter overthrow both of learning and religion. For take from Bishops their lands and their authority, let every Confusion. parish elect their own minister, remove Homilies, Articles, Injunctions, appoint no prescript order of service (that is to say) let there be no order prescribed to any man, no law to direct him or control him, but let every minister do what he list, speak what he list, altar what he list, and so often as him list: to be short, let every minister be King and Pope in his own parish, and exempted from all controlment of Bishop, Magistrate, and Prince, and you shall have as many kinds of Religion, as there is Parishes, as many sects, as ministers, and a Church miserably torn in pieces, with mutability and diversity of opinions. Do you not see what they shoot at? would they not be free from all Anabaptisme feared. Ambition in the Admonitors. magistracy? do they not most ambitiously desire that themselves, which they condemn in other? that is, Lordship and superiority. For who think you should be chief in every parish, and direct the rest? Surely even the minister: The Pope never required greater authority over all Christendom, than they seek to have over their parish. The Pope and his Clergy did never more earnestly seek, and desire to be exempted from the jurisdiction of civil magistrates, than these men do both from ellesiasticall and civil Princes, nobles: and magistrates were never brought into greater servitude & bondage, than these men seek to lay upon them. T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 1 After a number of words without matter, sayings without proofs, accusations without any grounds, or likelihood of grounds, as that they be instruments of greedy guts, and lusty roisters to maintain them in their joylity, which notwithstanding speak against Patron ges, and would have the livings of the Church, which are idly and unprofitably spent (for the most lordship rt) applied to the right uses of the poor, and of ministers and scholars, and that they would be discharged from civil and ecclesiastical subjection, which humbly submitting themselves to the Queen's majesty, and all those that are, sent of her, would deliver the Churches and themselves for the Church's sake, from the unla ul dominion of one, to the end that they might yield themselves with their Chruches' subject to the lawful ecclesiastical government of those which▪ God hath appointed in his word. After I▪ s y a number of such and like accusations, mixed with most itter and reproachful words, unto all which, it is sufficient answer, that▪ Quod verbo dictu most, verbo sit negatum▪ As easily denied as said. Io. Whitgifte. For proof of all that I have here said, I refer myself to common experience, and the like pract says in other Churches, by people of much like disposition, as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare. What that lawful eccles asticall government of those which (you say) God hath appointed in his word, is▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or not, shall be seen, when we come to that part of your Reply. Certain it is that you would transfer both the authority of the Prince, Archbishop, and Bishop, to yourselves, and your seniors▪ for that is the lawful ecclesiastical government you mean. And those be the people whom you think God to have appointed in his word, as it will fall out more evidently hereafter. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authority, if you love the peace and prosperity An exhortation to those that be in authority. of the Church of Christ, if you desire the good success of the Gospel if you will preserve the state of this Realm, if you think it necessary to have good magistrates, to have good laws and orders in a common wealth, if you esteem learning, and seek to prefer it, if you hate anarchian, confusion, Anabaptisme, if you allow of your own condition▪ and like of a kingdom better than of a popular state: Then provide betime some speedy remedy, for these and such like kind of men: and if the religion you have established be good, if the orders and laws you have made be convenient, let them not be written against, spoken against, nay openly contemned and broken, without sharp and severe punishment: suffer not such as execute them to be contemned, hated, discouraged, and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned. by some superiors. Either let your laws be maintained as laws, or else deliver us from our duty in executing and obeying of them. T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth himself to those that be in authority, whom he would make believe, that it standeth upon the overthrow of the church, of religion, of order, of the Realm, of the state of Princes, of Magistrates, which are by this means established, and whose estates are made this way most sure, when as the true causes of these clamours, and outcries, that M. Doctor maketh, is nothing else, but the fear of the overthrow, of that honour which is to the dishonour of God, and ignomune of his Church, and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goods, for the aid and help of the Church, which now serve to oppress it. Io. Whitgifte. It shall be sufficient to refer the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authority, who can best consider of both our meanings. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 88 Sect. 1 Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say much, for I have no great experience of it, and less knowledge in the law, notwithstanding The Court of faculties. because by lawful authority, it is allowed in this Realm, I cannot but reverently judge of it, for in such matters I think it a point of modesty to suppose the best, and to abstain from condemning of that government, which is allowed as convenient. If there be faults in the officers, they may be corrected. T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties, the corruptions thereof, being so clear that all men see them, and so gross that they which cannot see, may grope them. M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it means, and therefore is moved of modesty to think the best of it, which is but a simple shift. For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it, but that the streets, and high ways talk of: if there had been any defence for it, it is not to be thought that M. Doctor would have been so negligent an advocate, as to have omitted it, seeing if he were ignorant, he might have had so easily, and with so little cost, the knowledge of it. As for his modesty, his bold asseveration of things which are doubtful, which are false, which are altogether unlikely, which are impossible for him to know, doth sufficiently bewray, and make so well known, that no such vizard, or painting can serve to make men believe, that mere modesty shut up his mouth, from speaking for the Court of faculties, which hath opened his mouth so wide, for the defence of those things, wherein as it falls out, he hath declared himself, to have less skill and understanding than he hath of that Court. Io. Whitgifte. I have spoken my conscience of that Court, neither did I confer with any to give me any instructions concerning it. And surely as I thought then, so do I think now. I have affirmed nothing which I will not stand to, except you can convince me by better reasons, than I have herded any as yet. That Court hath the original and authority from the Prince: it is established and confirmed by Parliament: it meddleth nothing with that, that pertaineth to the office either of Bishop or Pastor. The principal officers be the Lord Chancellor and the Archbishop. It maintaineth the queens prerogative in causes ecclesiastical, and was erected the. 25. rear of King Henry the eight by authority of Parliamment, to the suppressing and utter abolishing of the Bishop of Rome's jurisdiction. It meddleth not (for any thing that I know) with matters, that by learning can be proved to be against the word of God: and in some points it cannot without inconvenience be miss. But this is a matter of policy, and therefore I leave the further consideration of it, to such as God hath committed the government of this realm unto, to whom it doth especially appertain. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments. Tract. 12. The first Division. Admonition. Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments. In the old time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministered, now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministering The second external note of the church. of the Sacraments sincerely: you would prove that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministered: first by three general reasons pertaining to both the sacraments: then by certain abuses which you found severally in either of them. The first general reason is this: In old time the word was preached before the Sacraments were ministered, now it is supposed to be sufficient, if it be read. To prove that the word was preached before the Sacraments were ministered, you allege the third of Matthew, vers. 12. Which hath his fan in his hand, and will make clean his flower, and gather his wheat into his garner, but will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. I understand not how you can of this place conclude, that there must be of necessity preaching and not reading before the administration of the Sacraments: If you say, john preached unto such as came unto his baptism, and read not unto them, therefore of necessity there must be preaching and not reading: I deny the argument, for A general doctrine may not he concluded of a singular example. it is a common rule, that we may not conclude a general doctrine, of a singular or particular example: and I am sure it is against all rule of Logic. T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. ult. Whereas unto the Admonition proving out of the third of S. Matthew, that preaching must go before the ministering of the Sacraments, you answer first, that it is against all logic to conclude a general ule upon a particular example: you shall understand that that which john did in that point, he did it not as a singular person, or as the son of Zacharie, but as the minister of the gospel, and therefore it appertaineth as well to all other ministers, as unto him. For as it is a good conclusion, that for so much as Peter in that he is a man is born to have, and by common course of nature hath two legs, therefore john, & Thomas, and all the rest have so: even so, for so much as john by reason of his ministery, had need first to preach, then to baptize, it followeth that all others, that have that ministery committed unto them, must do the like. Io. Whitgifte. So did john not as a private man, but as a minister of the Gospel preach in the wilderness, baptize in jordan, must therefore all other ministers of the Gospel do the same? This is no orderly kind of reasoning to say, Peter in that he is a man is born to have two legs, Ergo every man hath two legs: but the due form of reasoning is this: Every man by nature hath two legs, Peter is a man and therefore by nature hath two legs. Therefore if the argument had been framed on this sort, it is the office of every minister of the Gospel to preach before baptism: john, Peter, and Thomas be ministers of the Gospel, Ergo they aught to preach before baptism. It had been in some good order touching the form, though in the matter ther had been some fault. But you must think that to preach before the administration of baptism, is not so natural to a minister of the Gospel, nor so much of the substance of his office, as to have two legs is to a man. For he may be a true, faithful, and perfect minister of the Gospel, though he never preach before the administration of Baptism: But he cannot be a perfect man, touching his body, that lacketh the one or both of his legs. It is an undoubted rule in the Scriptures, that a general doctrine, may not be concluded of particular examples, except the same examples be according to some general rule or commandment. The Apostles in that they were ministers of the word, preached in all places, cured diseases, wrought miracles. etc. But it doth not therefore follow that all other ministers must do so likewise. Howbeit if the case were now with other ministers When preaching before baptism is necessary. of the Gospel, as it was then with john, that is, if they had to baptize only men of years and discretion, and such as believed not in Christ, as john had: than it were most necessary that they should preach before they did baptize. But seeing the case is clean altered and there is now no occasion to minister the sacrament of baptism to any but to young infants, that understand not the word preached, I cannot perceive how that example of john can be aptly applied, for he preached to such as were yet to be baptized. But the Reader may note, that you are content to pass over the unapt allegation of the Scripture, used by the authors of the Admonition in this place. The second Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 1 But how if it may be proved that john did baptize some without baptizing distinct from preaching. preaching unto them? In that third Chap. of Matthew vers. 5. and. 6. we read that all jerusalem and all judea, and all the region round about jordan, went out to be baptized of him, and that they were baptized of him in jordan, confessing their sins: but we read not, that he did immediately before preach unto them. T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 5. Secondarily you say that it doth not appear, that he preached immediately before he baptized them with water, And yet S. Matthew after that he had showed, that he preached repentance, (which the other Evangelists call the baptism of repentance) he addeth, that then the people were baptized of him, which also may appear by the. 19 of the Acts, vers. 5. where S. Paul noteth this order to have been kept. For although between the story of his preaching, and that which is said, of his baptizing, there is interlaced a description of his diet, and of his apparel, yet these words (than came unto him. etc.) must needs be referred unto the time which followed his preaching. Io. Whitgifte. I doubt not but that john preached unto them oftener than once, or twice before he did baptize them: for else should he have baptized them being infidels: but it may well be gathered by those places of Saint Matthew, that he did not immediately preach unto them before baptism, which is that that I affirm. For the authors of the Admonition seem to condemn the administration of our sacraments, because the word is not always preached immediately before they be ministered. I understand not how you can gather any such order out of that. 19 of Acts, vers. 5. except you call questioning preaching. For S. Paul there doth question with them, ask them whither they had received the holy Ghost, or not, and unto what they were baptized? there is no mention of any sermon preached, for any thing that I can espy. Moreover it is dangerous to understand that place of the Sacrament of baptism, The place. 19 Act. may not be interpreted of the sacrament of baptism. lest we should seem to admit rebaptisation, and to fall into the heresy of the Anabaptists, who use this plars for that purpose or else think that there is so great difference betwixt the baptism of john, and the baptism of Christ, that such as were baptized with the baptism of john, had need again 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 baptised with the baptism of Christ, which opinion some hold being deceived by this place: Therefore that it may appear how unaptly you have alleged this place for your purpose, and what suspicion you have given either of the anabaptistical rebaptisation, or Papistical difference betwixt the baptism of john, and the baptism of Christ, I will recite unto you the judgement of some learned men concerning this place. M. Caluine upon the same verse and sentence writeth thus: But now it may be asked whether it be lawful to reiterate baptism, and furious men of our time using this testimony, have go about to bring in Anabaptisme. Some men by the name of baptism understand a new institution: unto whom I do not assent, because their exposition as it is enforced, savoureth of a shift. Others deny that Baptism was reiterated, because they had Calvin in. 19 Acto. been baptized, of some foolish imitator of john. But because their guess hath no colour of truth, nay rather the words of Paul do testify that they were the very true disciples of john, and Luke very honourably calleth them the disciples of Christ: I do not subscribe unto this sentence, and yet I deny the baptism of water to have been reiterated, because the words of Luke do sound nothing else, but that they were baptized with the spirit. First it is no new The name of baptism transferred to the gifts of the spirit. thing to transfer the name of baptism to the gifts of the spirit, as we have seen in the first and. 11. Chap. where Luke said that Christ, when he promised to the Apostles the visible sending of the holy Ghost, called it baptism, and again when the holy Ghost descended upon Cornelius, that Peter remembered the words of the Lord, you shall be baptized with the holy Ghost. Then we see that it is here namely entreated of the visible gifts, and that they are conferred and given with baptism. But whereas it followeth immediately, that when he had laid his hands upon them, the holy Ghost came. I interpret that to be put in the way of exposition, for it is the usual and familiar manner of speaking in the scripture, to propound a matter briefly, and after to explicate it more plainly. That therefore which for brevity was somewhat obscure, Luke doth better express, and more largely expound, saying, that the holy Ghost was given them by the imposition of hands. If any man object, that the name of baptism, when it is used for the gifts of the holy Ghost, is not put simply, but with addition, I answer that the meaning of Luke is evident enough by the text. And further, that Luke alludeth to baptism, whereof he had before made mention. And surely if you should take it for the external sign, it will be absurd that it was given unto them, without any better instruction. But if metaphorically of the institution, the phrase would yet be more hard, and the story would not agreed, that after they were taught, the holy Ghost descended upon them. But be it as other some learned men also interpret this place, that in the former part of the Chapter, the baptism of john is taken for the doctrine of john, and in this place for the sacrament of baptism: and that Paul preached before he did administer the same, yet doth it not follow, that of necessity there must be preaching before the administration of baptism. The Anabaptists abused this place to the same effect, but M. Bullinger doth answer them in this manner. Whereas the Catabaptists ullin. in. 19 Acto. object here, Therefore doctrine goeth before baptism: no man denieth it, but yet in those that be of years of discretion, and with whom the name of Christ hath not been published. But again whereas the name of Christ hath been herded of, no man can deny, but that there the parents being careful for the salvation of their children, do offer them unto holy baptism, because they hear that God is also, the God of infants: but baptism 〈◊〉 self to be nothing else, but the sign of the people of God. The third Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect▪ . And verses. 13. 14. 15. it is manifest, that he did baptize Christ without preaching. This is buta slender proof you use, thereby to condemn the sincerity of our sarramentes, and administering of them in this Church. T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 13. And whereas you say that it is manifest that our saviour Christ was baptized without preaching, I would know of you, what one word doth declare that, when as the contrary rather doth appear in S. Luke, which seemeth to note plainly, that our Saviour Christ was baptized, when Luke. 3. the people were baptized. But the people as I have showed were baptized immediately after they herded john preach, therefore it is like, that our saviour Christ was baptized after that he had herded john preach. And it is very probable, that our saviour Christ which did honour the ministry of God by the hand of men so far, as he would vouchsafe to be baptized of john, would not neglect or pass by his ministry of the word, being more precious than that of the Sacrament, as it appeareth by john, that our Saviour Christ was present at his sermons, for so much as S. john doth as he was preaching to the people, point him out with the finger, & told them that he was in the midst john. 1. of them which was greater than he. Io. Whitgifte. First S. matthew maketh no mention of it, neither can it be gathered by any circumstance of the place. Secondly, Luke doth not say that john preached immediately before he baptized. But the contrary rather appeareth, if S. Luke write the story orderly. Thirdly, to what purpose should he preach to Christ before he baptized him? Lastly, in the first of john, there is not one sentence to prove that Christ was present at any of john's sermons, for those words (But there standeth one among you john. 1. whom you know not. etc.) do not signify that he was in that company at that present, Sed quod inter eos versabatur, that he was conversant amongst them. But if he had been present, doth it therefore follow that the sacraments may not be ministered without preaching? do you make preaching immediately before the administration of the sacraments, De substantia Sacramentorum, of the substance of the Sacraments? The. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 90. Sect. 2. 3. There is no man I think which doth not allow of preaching before Preaching be fore the sacraments not disallowed. the administration of the Sacraments: but it is not therewith joined, tanquam de necessitate sacramenti, as of the necessity of the Sacrament, neither is there any thing here alleged for preaching before the administration of the lords supper. Indeed we read not that Christ did preach immediately before the distribution of the Sacrament of his body & blood to his disciples, only he told them, that some of them should betray him, & that he had greatly desired to eat the passover with them. This I writ to show your blind and unlearned collections, not to disallow preaching in the administration of the Sacraments. T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 25. And there is no doubt, but those words which our Saviour Christ said before his supper, although they are gathered by the Evangelists into short sentences, were notwithstanding long sermons touching the fruit of his death, and use and end of that Sacrament. Io. Whitgifte. But if it had been so necessary a matter as you make it, and of the substance of the sacraments, it would have been expressed by one means or other: seeing therefore it is not, the words and order of the holy Evangelists must be credited before your bold conjectures. The. 5. Division. Act. 2. Act. 8. 12. Vers. 38. Act. 9 Act. 10. Act. 16. Vers. 15. 33. Act. 20. T. C. Page. 125. in the midst. And this order of preaching immediately before the ministering of the Sacraments is continually noted of S. Luke, throughout the whole story of the Acts of the Apostles. Io. Whitgifte. It is not denied but that men must first be converted to Christ by preaching of the word, before the Sacraments be ministered unto them, and thereunto tend all those places of the Acts which be noted in the margin. But our question is whither preaching be so necessarily joined with the administration of the sacraments, the neither the faithful which well understand the use of them, neither infants whose capacity will not serve to learn, may be made partakers of the sacraments, without a sermon preached before. The. 6. Division. T. C. Page 125. about the midst. But I will not precisely say, neither yet do the authors of the Admonition affirm (as M. doctor surmiseth of them) that there must be preaching immediately before the administration of the sacraments. This I say that when as the (*) An untrue and soul error. life of the sacraments, dependeth of the preaching of the word of God, there must of necessity the word of God be, not read, but preached unto the people, amongst whom the sacraments are ministered. Io. Whitgifte. What do you say then, or wherefore contend you? no man ever denied preaching to be very convenient. But the Authors of the Admonition say: That in the old time the word was preached before the sacraments were ministered, now it is supposed to be sufficient, if it be read. To what purpose be these words spoken, except their meaning be to have the word preached at all times, when the Sacraments be ministered? so that you would seem to say something in their defence, & when you have done, you make a doubt of the matter, and begin to halt, saying that you will not precisely say. etc. This saying of yours, that the life of the sacraments dependeth of the preaching of the The life of the sacraments dependeth not of preaching. The absurdities of the assertion of the Replier. word of God. etc. is most untrue: and in mine opinion a foul error, for the life of the Sacraments depend upon God's promises expressed in his word, and neither upon preaching nor upon reading. If this doctrine of yours be true, then be the sacramites dead sacraments, and without effect, except the word be preached when they be ministered. And so in deed do some of your adherentes in plain terms affirm, saying that they are seals without writing, and plain blanks. Which doctrine savoureth very strongly of Anabaptisme, and doth deprive those of the effects and fruits of the Sacraments, which have been partakers of them without the word preached when they were ministered, and so consequently even yourself, for it is not like that there was a sermon at your Christening. And therefore this doctrine must of necessity The doctrine of the Replier tendeth to plain Anabaptisme. bring in both rebaptisation, and condemn the baptism of infants, which is flat anabaptistical. For if that baptism be without life, at the which the word of God is not preached, then can it not regenerate or be effectual to those that were therewith baptized? And therefore must of necessity be iterated, that it may be lively. Again isbaptisme be dead, at the which the word of God is not preached, then can it do no good to such as have no understanding of the word of God preached, that is, to infants. For if the preaching of the word be so necessarily joined with the administration of the Sacraments, it is in the respect of those that are to receive the sacraments, & then must it needs follow the the saraments may be ministered to none, but to such as be able to hear the word of God: whereby infants must be secluded from baptism. And in deed this is one of the strongest arguments that the Anabaptistes use against the baptizing of infants, as shall hereafter appear. For of this the Reader shall understand more, by that which straightway I will set down out of Zuinglius. The. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 125. somewhat past the midst. And forasmuch as I have proved before, that no man may minister the sacraments, but he which is able to preach the word, although I (*) Belike you are in doubt of your doctrine. dare not affirm that there is an absolute necessity, that the word should be preached immediately before the sacraments be ministered, yet I can imagine no case wherein it is either meet, or convenient, or else almost sufferable that the sacraments should be ministered without a sermon before them, for the minister being (as he aught of necessity to be) able to preach, aught so to do. And if it be said that his health or voice will not serve him sometimes to preach, when he is able enough to minister the sacraments. (*) Ergo one may preach out of his own cure, which is contrary to your doctrine I say that either he aught to beg the help of an other minister hard by, or else there is less inconvenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament, until he be strong enough to preach, than ministering it so maymedly and without a sermon: whereby it is seen how just cause M. Doctor hath to call these blind and unlearned gatherings, which he with his eagles eye, & his great learning, can not scatter, nor once move. Io. Whitgifte. Tract. 6. cap. 1 & Tract. 9 cap. 1. divis. 15 I have sufficiently proved that the administration of the Sacrament of Baptism may be committed to those which be not preachers of the word. If the life of the sacrament depend of the preaching of the word, as you have said before: then there is an absolute necessity that the word be preached immediately before the sacraments be ministered, and therefore in making this doubt, you do but declare a wavering mind, and an uncertain judgement. How can he beg help of an other minister, seeing no man may preach in an other man's cure? 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 You greatly forget yourself, and the absurdity of your doctrine appeareth by your own contrarieties. But now that it may be known, how near in this point you approach to Anabaptisme, The 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 approacheth to 〈◊〉. I will note one or two places out of Zuinglius, touching this matter. In his book De baptismo, speaking against this self same assertion of the Anabaptistes, he says thus: The disciples did minister the baptism of water in times passed without any doctrine, and without giving the holy Ghost, for they baptized when as Christ taught and did not baptize, as we have before showed out of the. 4. of john, and out of thee: 1. Cor. 1. for Paul Zuinglius. saith, Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach, therefore some taught, and other baptized. But we may gather out of the sixt of john, that baptism was used before that men being endued with true faith, did stick unto the doctrine, for there we read that many forsook Christ, whom notwithstanding no man doubteth to have been before baptized. Again entreating of these words. (Euntes docete omnes gentes. etc. Math. 28. which the Anabaptistes use for an argument to improve the baptism of infants, because Christ said there Docete, before he said Baptizate, whereof they gather your assertion, that preaching must go before baptism, and therefore conclude that infants may not be baptized because they can not be taught) says thus: By these words they which deny baptism unto infants do not only seduce themselves, but draw others also into great errors, and Laberinthes: for urging of the bore order of the words of Christ, they have nothing else in their mouths but only this: Docete & baptizate, teach and baptize. Behold say they the commandment of Christ. In the mean time, they do not mark (nay in deed they will not mark) that the same thing that they so much cry upon, doctrine, is afterward also set after, when as he saith, Docentes eos servare. etc. teaching them to observe all those things, which I have commanded you. By the which words, it is manifest that baptism is a sign whereby we give our names, and have our first entrance unto Christ, the which being given and received, yet notwithstanding those things are to be taught and to be learned, which Christ would have us to keep: but these men urging the bore letter, Cry still, that Christ said, Docete & baptizate, teach and baptize. Wherefore I will also urge the same bore letter, but for their causes only, if by any means I might withdraw them from their desire to contend. Sirs you urge that saying, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost: and I say this, baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you. Wherefore now I ask, whither of us hath the word more plain and apart, that concerneth doctrine? you verily bring the word of God, which proveth that men should be taught, but what kind of doctrine that is, is not in those your words expressed. But we have the word of God more clear and plain than yours, which is, Teaching them to observe all those things, whatsoever I have commanded you, and these words are put after, and not set before baptism. And a little after. Although we grant that this order of words hath some force in this place, yet these things pertain nothing unto young children and infants, that they should not be baptized before doctrine: for these words pertain unto those that are instructed in doctrine and the outward word: but it is manifest that infants are not taught, therefore these words can not so be referred unto children, that they aught not to be baptised. And in the same book, speaking of this. 3. chap. of matthew by you alleged When preaching is necessary before 〈◊〉. and used of the Anabaptistes to the same purpose, he granteth that john did preach before he did baptize, For necessity so required, that by teaching he should expound to the people the causes of baptism. For except doctrine were preached, no man would in these our days have their children baptised. But after they were of years of discretion, and had received faith through the ministery of the doctrine, (as we read that it was done of them in old time) they brought their children also to be baptized. And in the end he concludeth thus: In the mean time, we do willingly grant this unto them, that doctrine and instruction aught to go before, if at any time we come unto infidels, for none of the Heathen aught to be baptized, but he which hath herded and believed that doctrine, which was before unknown unto them and there's. Thus than you see, how near your opinion of the necessity of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments, approacheth to the heresy of the Anabaptists. If you would shift off the matter, as though you required not this necessity of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments always in respect of those which are ro receive them, but in respect of the rest which are present, as this would be but a shift, so can it not agree with your assertion: for the life of the sacraments, pertaineth not to those that be present, but unto those that are partakers of them. Wherefore M. Doctor needeth not his eagles eyes to espy your errors (that I say no worse) but with dimmer sight than he hath, might easily see, that you in this doctrine have plainly joined hands with the Anabaptistes. And yet I would not have any man think that I mislike preaching in the administration Preaching be fore the ministration not disallowed. of the sacraments, which can be unprofitable at no time: but this only I affirm, that it is not so necessarily joined with the administration of the sacraments, but that they may be rightly administered, though the word be not at the same time preached. ¶ Of Reading of the Scriptures. Tract. 13. A comparison between reading of scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. the first Division. T. C. Pag. 125. Sect. ult. After this M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition, as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church, and this accusation he followeth in many words, and in divers places, wherein as in a number of other places of their book, the authors of the Admonition have cause to renew that old complaint of Theodorus, which is that whensoever any thing is said that is unpleasant, that is by and by expounded otherwise than it is meant of him that speaketh it: so that that which is given with the right hand, is received with the left. For the authors of the Admonition declaring their utter misliking, that there should be in stead of a preaching minister (a) A dangerous parenthesis. (if I may so call him) and in stead of preaching reading, are untruly expounded of M. Doctor, as though they condemned all reading in the church. And here he maketh himself work, and picketh a quarrel to blot a great deal of paper, and to prove that which no man denieth, for besides this treatise, he speaketh afterward of it in half a score pages, even from the. 159. page until the. 170. page, & so lighteth us a candle at noon days. (*) Herein you have aptly described your own nature. It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietness, which rather than he would not strive, striveth with himself. Io. Whitgifte. Wither I accuse them justly or not, I shall refer it to the Reader to judge, after I have set down their very words, which indeed no Christian cares can patiently hear: pag. 157. they say thus: Reading is not feeding, but it is as evil as playing upon a stage, and worse to. Which words if they be well marked and joined with the reason that followeth: for players yet learn their parts without book. etc. must needs signify a mer contempt of reading the scriptures, and a mind that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading, than by playing upon a stage, which is an untolerable blasphemy. Pages. 164. and. 165. their talk of reading the scriptures tendeth wholly to this purpose, to make the same altogether unprofitable: and surely no man can excuse them of this crime, but he that is bend without respect to assent unto them in all things, though they be most manifestly false, and most absurd. But I would have the Reader mark this one thing, that speaking of a reading minister, you say, It I may so call him, whereby you give plain signification that you may not call nor esteem them to be ministers which cannot preach. Which if it be true, then have they not in your doctrine delivered any of the sacraments, & The mark that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptised as have been baptizedby them, to the proof whereof your doctrine tendeth wholly. The like he hath after ward, pag. 128. Sect. 1 Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good, which he defendeth, yet I will note in a word or two, how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in his hands, he defileth whatsoever he toucheth. Io. Whitgifte. A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeach a known truth, for the persons sake that doth defend it. Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus? Did Paul so? or did Peter dally in that manner? Paul was content to allow the truth preached, even by false Prophets. But what should I compare the mild, modest and loving spirit of the Apostles, with the contentious and scoffing spirit of T. C? Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learn why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zwingfildians mislike reading of scriptures. the scriptures, I hope you be not Zwingfildians: is not the word of God as effectual when it is read, as when it is preached? or is Reading is preaching. not reading preaching? T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therefore he asketh, and so, that he doth most boldly and confidently affirm it, whither the word of God is not as effectual when it is read, as when it is preached? or whether reading be not preaching? In which two questions, although the one of them confuteth the other (for so much as if reading be preaching (as he saith) than the comparison of the profit and efficacy between one and the other is absurd) yet I will answer to both. I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectual read as preached. For S. Paul saith, that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing of the word preached, so that the ordinary and especial means to work faith by, is preaching, Rom. 10. and not reading. Io. Whitgifte. I have affirmed nothing so boldly, which I have not as strongly by good authorities, and reasons confirmed, to the which you have not answered, but in this manner of brawling. If you did understand that there are divers kinds of preachings (as M. Bucer declareth) upon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them, which also the same Bucer there affirmeth, than would you have abstained from giving this sentence. That if reading be preaching, than is the comparison of the profit and efficacy between one and the other absurd: for one kind of preaching may be compared to an other, without any absurdity. I say that S. Paul in that chapter to the Romans, by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospel by voice generally. understand, all kinds of publishing the Gospel by the external voice, which comprehendeth reading, as well as it doth that which you call preaching, and it is greatly against the dignity and majesty of the scriptures, it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papists, touching the obscurity of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them, to say, that faith cometh not by reading, for that is to make them dumb and unprofitable. M. Bucer upon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth forth the commodity of reading the scriptures The commodity of reading the scriptures in the church. Bucer. in this manner. Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end, that both the phrase, and manner of speaking of the scripture, and the scripture itself, might be more known and more familiar to the people, when as they which did interpret the scriptures, could not finish one little part thereof in one whole year. In the mean time by the only reading of the scriptures, the people were marvelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the points and doctrine of salvation. For they be in every book oftentimes repeated, and expounded with divers words, that the people of that which followed might understand many things, which in that that went before, they could not sometime perceive: and by that means, the judgement of the people was confirmed in all points of religion, so that they were able to judge of the interpretation of the scriptures, and of all doctrine which was taught them by their own Curates and teachers, or by any other. And therefore in ancient Churches, this bore reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed. Of reading of scriptures (God be thanked) it is very well appointed in the Church of England. etc. Thus far M. Bucer. Surely I marvel what is meant by this your strange kind of doctrine, except you would have the people through ignorance of the scriptures, brought again to this point, that they must only depend upon the mouth of the Pastor. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do help to nourish the faith, which cometh by preaching, yet this is given to the preaching, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency, and for that it is the excellentest, and most ordinary means to work by in the hearts of the hearers. The beholding of the creatures, and the consideration of the making of the world, and of God's wisdom, and wonderful love appearing in them, doth nourish and strengthen faith, and yet may it not therefore in efficacy be compated to the preaching of the word of God. Io. Whitgifte. Reading of the scriptures doth not only nourish faith, but engendereth faith also: Reading doth not only nourish faith, but gendereth also. as I have proved in my Answer to the Admonition, both by the scriptures and other learned writers. If it were otherwise, then were the power of persuasion to be ascribed to the preacher and manner of teaching, not to the word which is against that saying of Christ, Scrutamini scripturas. etc. search the scriptures, for in them you think to have eternal life. etc. and of the Apostle. The whole scripture is given by inspiration of john. 5. 2. Tim. 3 God, and is profitable to teach, to improve, to correct, and to instruct in righteousness, that the man of God may be absolute etc. I deny not but that preaching is the most ordinary and usual means, that God useth to work by in the hearts of the hearers, because the people be for the most Preaching the most ordinary means: and why. part ignorant, and dull of understanding, and therefore have need of schoolmasters & teachers to open and declare the scriptures unto them, and to deal with them according to their capacity: but this doth nothing derogate from the might and power of the word of God being read of them, or to them that understand it, & set their heart upon it. If reading were so simple a thing and so little profitable as you would make it, why was the Gospel committed to writing? why is it thought so expedient to have it in a tongue known to the people? why do men print their sermons, which they have preached? why did God by Moses command the law to be read? why did the Prophet jeremy will Baruch to write out his sermons, and to read them oh the people? Do you think that there cometh no more knowledge or profit by reading the scriptures, than doth by beholding of God's creatures? Then let us have Images again, that they may be lay men's books, as the Papists call them: no doubt attributing as much to the external and visible creature, as they did to the reading of the eternal word of God, wherein you join with them, for any thing that I yet see. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 20. And to know that the word of God preached, hath more force, and is more effecuall than when it is read, it is to be observed, whereunto the preaching is compared. It is called a lifting or heaving john. 3. up of our Saviour Christ. Like unto the displaying of a banner, as the Serpent was lift up in the wilderness. As therefore that which is lifted up on high is better and easilier seen of a greater company, than when it standeth or lieth upon the ground, or in some valley or some low place: so the preaching of the gospel, doth offer sooner, and easilier the truth thereof unto the faith, (which is the eye of the hearer) than when it is read. Io. Whitgifte. Where is there any such comparison in that third Chapter of john? If you mean these words, Et nem ascendit in caelum, etc. Et sicut Moses exaltavit Serpentem. etc. As Moses jobn. 3. lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness. etc. as you can mean no other, than I think you were not well advised or little cared for your credit, when you abused them for this purpose, to prove that the word of God is more effectual when it is preached, than when it is read, Surely if you fetch your similitudes so far, and imagine that which was never meant, and make the scripture a nose of ware as the Papists do, you may conclude what you list. For how hangs this together: No man ascendeth up into heaven, but he that descended down from heaven, the son of man which is in heaven. Ergo saith cometh by preaching of the word of God, and not by reading of it? Or this. As Moses lifted up the Serpent in the desert, so must the son of man be lifted up, that all that believe in him. etc: Therefore the word of God hath more force when it is preached, than when it is read. This gear is to profound for me, I cannot understand it, except I will imagine that which is not: and it may be that you were in some other deep meditation when you written it, and so applied this text to a wrong matter: for in that place, Christ foretelleth of his death and passion, whereof the lifting up of the Serpent Num. 21. in the wilderness was a figure. And although I am not ignorant that some do allegory upon this place, saying that Christ is lifted up, by the preaching of the Gospel, yet that maketh nothing against me, who nowhere deny this effect of preaching. And it is a very hard collection to say: Christ is lifted up by preaching, therefore reading letteth him lie on the ground, as though by reading the Gospel, Christ is not also lifted up, and made manifest unto the eyes of the faithful. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 126. in the midst. It is called also a sweet Savour, and therefore as the spices being brayed and 〈◊〉, smell 2. Cor. 2 sweeter and stronger, than when they be whole and unbroken: so the word by interpretation being broken and bruysed, carrieth a sweeter savour unto the understanding, than when it is by reading given gross, and whole, the same also may be said in that the preaching is called a cutting of the word of God, for as when the meat is cut and shred, it nourisheth more than when it is not 2. Tim. 2. so: so likewise it is in preaching and reading. Io. Whitgifte. Saint Paul speaking of himself, and of the ministers of the word, saith thus. For we are unto God the sweet savour of Christ in them that are saved. etc. and 2. Tim. 2. Cor. 2. 2. Tim. 2. he admonisheth Timothy to cut the word of truth rightly, that is prudently, and according to the capacity of the hearers. What conclude you of this? Or what one word is there in either of those places that derogateth any thing from reading? Do you think that the praise of preaching, is the dispraise of reading? As though they were one contrary to an other, and not rather both of them most profitable. Is not the word of God when it is read, a sweet savour? Is there not prudency and discretion required in reading the Scriptures? Surely I am sorry that the Papists shall have so just cause to jest at your so unapt alleging of the Scriptures, and that they shall be animated in their ridiculous applications of the same, by these and such like untoward allegations of yours. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 126. somewhat past the midst. And that which is brought by the Authors of the Admonition, and so scornfully hurled away of M. doctor, that Saint Paul compareth the preaching unto pianting and watering, is a 1. Cor. 3. very (*) Surely you will make a notable conclusion notable place to prove that there is no salvation, without preaching. For as the husband man receiveth no fruit, unless he both plant, and water that which is planted: Even so there is no salvation to be looked for, where there is no preaching. It may be that God doth sometimes work saith by reading only, especially where preaching cannot be, and so he doth sometimes without reading, by a wonderful wor e of his spirit: but the ordinary ways, whereby God regenerateth his children, is by the word of God, which is preached. And therefore Solomon saith, Prou. 29. that where prophecy, (which is not a bore reading, but an exposition and application of the Scriptures) faileth, there the people perish. Io. Whitgifte. Saint Paul saith, I have planted, Apollo's watered, but God gave the increase. 1. Cor. 3. ver. 6. Erg there is no salvation without preaching: is not this good stuff, and a strong argument to build a matter of salvation up n? Saint Paul there declareth, that the preaching of the word is not effectual, except God give the increase, and that we aught not to attribute our salvation to the Ministers of the word but only to God. He maketh no comparison betwi t reading and preaching, neither is there any thing there spoken, either of tilling, or watering, which may not also be applied to attentive and diligent reading. If your distinction of quoting Scriptures, some times for the matter, sometimes for the phrase, serve at any time to excuse the unskilfulness of the Authors of the Admonition, it must either serve now or n ver: else I understand not to what purpose it can be alleged. It may be that God doth not only work faith by reading, but it is commonly so, especially in such as read with understanding. And yet this derogateth nothing from preaching, for God worketh by both. Solomon sayeth. That where there is no vision the people decay. And most true 〈◊〉. 29. it is. For where there is no true doctrine, nor faithful Ministers to preach the same, there the people must needs decay in Godliness, and true knowledge: but this derogateth nothing from reading. Both reading and preaching be necessary in the Church, and most prof table, the commendation of the one doth not take any thing from the other. But Preaching profiteth m than reading, and why? preaching doth profit more than reading doth, because it is more apt sore the ignorant & unlearned: & if in this respect you prefer preaching to reading, because it doth more commonly profit, & serveth more to the instruction of those which are ignorant, because it more plainly expresseth the meaning of the Scripture and applieth the same, then have you also bestowed a great time in proving that which is not denied of any, which ult you found with me before (though unjustly) even in this treatise. But we may Many converted by ding. not make so light of reading, whereby so many have come to the knowledge of the truth, whereby also daily mother are converted, even such as very seldom or never hear the word preached: both preaching therefore and reading be means whereby God doth call to salvation those that be his, he useth them both, jointly and severally as it pleaseth him, and where the one is publicly received, there is the other never refused. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Page. 126. towards the end, and Sect. ult. It is true, the word both preached and read is all one, as the fire covered with ashes, is the same when it is discovered. But (*) This 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉. as when the fire is stirred up and discovered, it giveth more heat, than when it is not: so the word of God by preaching and interpreting (as it were stirred up and blown) maketh a greater aim in the hearts of the hearers, than when it is read. The reason whereof is not in the word, which is all one read and preached, but in that it pleaseth the Lord to work more effectually with the one, than with the other, thereby approving and authorizing that means and ways, which he especially ordained for us to be saved by. Of infinite examples take one of the Eunuch, which although he had been at jerusalem, and Acts. 8. returning home, was reading of the Prophet Esay, yet he bell eved not until Philip came and preached unto him, which I neither say to disallow reading of the scriptures (which is for e profitable) nor yet to strengthen the hands of the Papists, which to banish the reading of the Scriptures, object the hardness and difficulty of the Scriptures, as Master doctor doth most slanderously, and unbrotherly surmise of the Authors of the Admonition: but that it may appear what a gross and a palpable error this is, that the reading of the Scripture should be as effectual as the preaching of it, which God hath appointed to be the especial and singular means, oh save those whom he hath appointed to salvation. Io. Whitgifte. What is this else but together with the Papists to condemn the Scriptures T. C. 〈◊〉 with the Papists. of obscurity: as though all things necessary to salvation were not plainly and clearly expressed in them? I grant you that every man underst andeth them not, for it is the spirit of God that openeth the heart of man, both to understand the Scriptures read and preached: and to him that understandeth them, they are as hot and as lightsome read as preached: neither shall you ever be able to prove the contrary. And the places that you have hitherto alleged, being so far from the purpose, convince you of a marvelous great scarcity of proofs. One example of infinite, is as few as may be. But if that one make not for your purpose, then must you be feign to seek some other, seeing you have such store. The Eunuch did not understand the Scripture, that he read, as it appeareth in the same place of the Acts: but I speak of such as understand that which they read, and therefore this place is soon answered. Neither do I speak of such in the commendation of reading, to disprove in any respect, the necessity and utility of preaching. But neither you, nor the Authors of the Admonition can avoid the strengthening the hands of the Papists in their erroneous opinions, not only of the hardness and difficulty, but also of the unprofitableness of the Scriptures. How palpaple an error it is that I defend, may appear by your mighty reasons against it, and your learned answer to those proofs that I have brought for it. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 3. And although this be very gross, yet in the. 163. page, where he goeth about to show the profit of reading the Scriptures in the Church, he s yet more absurd. For there he sayeth that it may be, that some men be more difyed by the simple reading of the Scriptures, than by Sermons. In deed if a man sleep the Sermon time, and wake the reading time, or be otherwise deaf at the one, and attentive and heed e at the other. I will not deny but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading, than at the Sermon, unless it be in this and such like case, I know not how it may be true that M. Doctor saith. And indeed it is as much to say that it may be, that the means that God hath ordained to be the fittest and meetest, to call men to salvation, is not the fittest and meetest means, which a man should not once so much as think of, without trembling and shaking every joint of him. Io. Whitgifte. As absurd as it is, Musculus doth affirm it in his common places. titu. de Lectio. sacrae script. And as his saying, I report it in mine answer: believing it to be most true. And therefore (if your malice had not been wholly bend against me) you should have ascribed this absurdity to him, or at lest have divided it betwixt us, and so my back should have been somewhat eased of the burden of absurdityas, wherewith you would so gladly overcharge me. God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching, and God useth reading as a means aswell as preaching. useth that also as a means to call men to salvation. Read Augustine. lib. con. 8. cap. 12. and you shall see that God used reading as a means to convert him. And surely I marvel that you professing the Gospel, can without trembling and shaking speak so basely of reading the word of God, being a thing so precious, and so singular a means of our salvation: but for the thing itself, I refer it to the judgement Reading somtune prevaileth more than preaching. of those, that have not drunk so deeply of the cup of contention as you have, whither it may not sometimes so happen. Or whither they which are quietly affected may not receive more edifying by the simple reading of the Scriptures which they understand, than by the Sermons of diverse contentious preachers, whose hot and bitter invectives, (which savour more of malice, than of love: of contention, than of peace the fruit of the Gospel) may breed in the hearts of those that are studious of peace, and quietly minded, some suspicion of the truth of their doctrine. Or lastly, whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospel, and conceiving a preindicate opinion against them (as diverse Papists do) may not be more edified, by diligent reading of the Scriptures, of whose authority they do not doubt, than by hearing of the Preacher, whose words they do either mistrust, or not regard, by reason of their prejudicate opinion against all Preachers: and in the end perceiving by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine, may be thereby established, which were not by the Sermons once moved. And for this cause Christ said. john. 5. Search the john. 5. Scriptures. etc. That Reading is Preaching. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And now I think by this time M. Doctor knoweth his answer to his second question, which is whether reading be not preaching▪ And if this be not sufficient that I have said, I would ask gladly of him, (*) A mere cavil. whether all Readers be Preachers, and whether whosoever readeth, preacheth, for if it be true (which he saith) that reading is preaching, then that is likewise true, that all those which read, preach, and so a child of. 4. or. 5. years old, is able to preach, because he is able to read. Io. Whitgifte. I know an answer in deed, such as it is: but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist, than for a professor of the Gospel. If preaching be taken generally for every How reading is preaching. kind of instructing or teaching by the word of God, as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching. But if it be taken in the usual signification, for him that interpreteth the Scripture, teacheth, and exhorteth in the Congregation, by discoursing upon the scriptures, and applying them as occasion serveth, than it is not so: and yet no less profitable to edifying, to such as understand that which is read, than preaching. To read the Scriptures is not to preach, or teach, in respect of him that readeth, but in the respect of God's spirit, which thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer. For we must think it to be true that Cyprian saith. When we read the Scripture God speaketh unto us: and in this sense a child that can read, may preach, that is, God by his word read of a child, may, and doth oftentimes teach us. And hereof we have (God be thanked) many examples in England, of those which being not able to read themselves, by the means of their children reading to them at home, receive instruction and edifying. And if you had been disposed to have called to remembrance, that which you say you have so diligently read in M. Fox, you might have known that diverse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospel only by reading, and hearing the new Testament in English read: which I am sure you will confess to have been to them a preaching and instruction. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. Admonition. By the word of God it is an office of preaching, they make it an office of reading. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 159. Sect. 1 But where doth the book make the ministery an office of reading only? Or what contrariety is there betwixt reading and preaching? Nay what difference is there betwixt them? If a man A written sermon is preaching. should writ his Sermon, and read it in the book to his flock, doth he not preach? Is there no Sermons but such as be said without book? I think to preach the Gospel is to teach and instruct the people, in faith and good manners, be it by writing, reading or speaking without book: and I am sure the spirit of God, doth work as effectually by the one of these ways, as it doth by the other. Did not Saint Paul preach to the Romans when he writ to them? Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching? 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornfully and so contemptuously speak of the reading of Scripture, being a thing so fruitful and necessary? T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And lest he should seem to be thus evil advised, without some reason in the. 159. Page, he asketh whether (if a man write his Sermon and after read it in the book) that reading be preaching. Here is hard shift, what if I granted that it is preaching, yet I deny that therefore he that readeth an other man's Sermon preacheth: and further I say, that if there be any such, as being able to preach for his knowledge, yet for fault either of utterance or memory, can not do it, but by reading that which he hath written: It is not convenient that he should be a Minister in the Church. For Saint Paul doth not require only, that the 1. 〈◊〉. 3. Bishop or Minister should be learned in the mysteries of the Gospel, and such a one as is able to set down in writing in his study, the sense of the Scripture, but one which is apt and fit to teach. And the Prophet Malachi showeth, that he must have the law, not in his papers, Mal. 2. but in his lips, noting thereby that it is necessary to have the gift of utterance: And Esay the Prophet saying that God had given him the tongue of the learned, doth thereby declare, Esay. 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mystery of salvation, but that he have also the gift of utterance. Io. Whitgifte. And why doth not he which readeth an other man's Sermon preach, as well as he doth when he readeth his own? What if he pronounce another man's Sermon in the Pulpit without book, doth he not preach, because it is not his own? I do not speak this to defend any such ignorant Pastor, that should need so to depend upon other men's labours: I do but put a case. It may be that a learned Pastor having both memory and utterance, sometime upon occasion may read a Sermon. And I nothing doubt, but in so doing he preacheth. And surely he shall the more readily have the law in his lips, if he have it first in his Papers. And yet if he read, he must use his lips. jeremy the Prophet as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter, was commanded to writ that which the Lord had commanded him to say to the people of jere. 36. juda, and of jerusalem, and to 'cause it to be read unto them, and so it was in the open congregation, and in the house of the Lord, in the hearing of all the people. And so did Baruch in like manner writ that which he had to say to jechonia, and to Bar. 1. all the people, and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these books were Sermons. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 127. about the midst. Afterwards M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paul did not preach to the Romans, when he written unto them. Not forsooth, his writing to the Romans, was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paul's hand, or his pen. which were his instruments to writ with, were his tongue, or his lights, or any other parts, which were his instruments to speak with. And S. Paul himself writing to the Romans, putteth a difference between his writing & his preaching, when although he written unto them, yet he excuseth himself that he could not come to preach unto them, saying, that he was ready, as much as lay in him to preach unto them. Io. Whitgifte. Forsooth and I think verily, that the same Epistle did them more good, and wrought more with them, than if the self same matter, had been preached unto them, and not written. And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers. of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle, I think that you shall hear the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect, preaching. I do not perceive that in the first Chapter of this Epistle, he maketh any such difference between his writing unto them, and his preaching. If you mean the. 15. verse, he therein only signifieth, that so much as lieth in him, he is ready personally to preach the Gospel among them, as well as he doth it now by his letters: and therefore to say that this his writing is no more preaching than his hand or his pen, was his tongue or his lights, is a proper jest, but not so apt for the purpose, nor so fit for your person. A man's mind is commonly much better expressed by writing than by word, and that which is written continueth. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 127. somewhat past the midst. But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching? No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofs. It is generally denied, that reading is preaching, and M. Doctor without any proof, taketh it for granted, that the reading of 〈◊〉 is preaching, all men see how pitiful reasons these be. Io. Whitgifte. And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. command the Priests and Levites, that they should read The words of this law before all Israel, that they might Deut. 31. hear it and learn, and fear the Lord God, and keep and observe all the words of the law? Why did josiah after he had found this book, 'cause it to be read, before all the people? if reading had not been effectual, and of as great force to persuade as preaching, that is, if reading in effect had not been preaching. If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered, and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses, according to learned and godly interpreters weighed and pondered, this controversy will soon be at an end, & it will there appear in express words, that reading is preaching. These pitiful reasons so disquiet your patience, that it would pity a man to see how of a divine, you are become a scornful jester. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, seeing he is read in the Synagogues every Sabbath day. Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching. T. C. Pag. 127. Towards the end. And in the. 162. page, he allegeth that in the. 15. of the Acts. S. Luke seemeth to mean by reading preaching. But what dealing is this? upon a (*) If your seem and conjectures were taken away, there would be few reasons left. seeming and conjecture, to set down so certainly, and undoubtedly, that reading is preaching, and then there is no one letter nor syllable that upholdeth any such comecture. For S. james sayeth that Moses (meaning the law) read every Sabbath through out every town in the Synagogue, was also preached, or had those that preached it, setting forth the order which was used in all the hurches amongst the people of God: that always, when they met upon the Sabbath days, they had the scriptures first read, and then preached of and expounded, which is that the Authors of the Admonition do desire, and therefore complain, for that after reading followeth no preaching, which any indifferent man may easily understand, by that that they say: In the old time the word was preached, now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read. Io. Whitgifte. Surely the place of itself is evident, neither can I read any interpreter, that doth otherwise understand it, than of reading, & the occasion of uttering these words importeth the same. For S. james doth use this for a reason, why the ceremonies of the law could not by and by be abolished among the jews, because Moses was of so great authority with them, being read every Sabbath day in their Churches. Therefore having the words of the Scripture with me, I must rest in my opinion, until I hear some proof or authority to the contrary. Howbeit the weight of the cause lieth not upon this text, this is but one reason among diverse. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. ult. But M. Doctor heareth with his left ear, and readeth with his left eye, as though his right eye were pulled out, or his right are cut of. For otherwise, the other words which they have touching this matter, might easily have been expounded, by the argument and matter which they handle. Io. Whitgifte. How doth it then happen that you have not salved the matter, by setting down their words, and declaring how I have mistaken them? seeing you have omitted that, men may well think that this is not uttered of you in good earnest. Now that you have said all in this matter, you must give me leave, to let the Reader understand, what you have left untouched in my book concerning the same, whither it be because you consent unto it, or that you cannot answer it, I refer to his discretion. ¶ The profit of Reading Scriptures in the Church. Chap. 3. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. & Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus saith that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers. Isidorus. Tertul. in Apologet. Tertullian. saith, when we come together to the reading of the holy Scriptures, we feed our faith with those heavenly voices, we raise up our affiance we fasten our hope. And again he calleth the reading of the Scriptures, the feeding of our faith. But what need I speak any more of a matter so manifest? you atly join Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papist in this, for in the confutation of the Apology of the Church of England, M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Church, a spiritual dumbness, and a thing part. 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Reply. unprofitable, etc. That to read the Scriptures in the Church is no new thing, but most ancient, and grounded upon God's word, it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke, where the Evangelist sayeth, that Christ on the Sabbath day, going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner, rose up to read, and there was delivered unto him the book of the Prophet Esay, and as soon as he opened the book, he found the place where it was written. Spiritus Domini super me. etc. The spirit of the Lord upon me. etc. Likewise in the thirteenth of the Acts, we read that Paul and other of his company, being in the Synagogue on the Sabbath day, was sent unto by the rulers of the Synagogue, Post lectionem legis & Prophetarum. After the reading Ad. 13. of the law and the Prophets. To know if they would make any exhortation to the people. justinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis, saith, that in his time the manner justinus Marinell your. was, on the Sabbath day when the people were gathered together, to have the scripture s read in the public congregation, and in the time of public prayer, for the space of one whole hour. Origen writing upon josua Homil. 15. sayeth, that the books of the Orig n. old Testament were delivered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches. Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth. The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian. heavenly words: he readeth out the Gospel of Christ. etc. Chrysostom upon the Acts Homil. 19 The minister and common minister standeth up, and crieth with a loud voice, saying: Keep silence, Chrysostom. Augustine. after that the Reader beginneth the prophesy of Esay. Augustine speaking to the people, sayeth: Ye herded when the Gospel was read. You herded erewhile, when it was read, if you gave ear to the reading, dearly beloved we have herded in the lesson that hath been read. Admonition. And that this is not the feeding that Christ spoke of, the Scriptures are plain. ( d For reading ministers view these places. Mala. 2. 7. Esay. 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at. 15. 14. . Tim. 3. 3 ) Reading is not feeding, but it is as evil as playing upon a stage, and worse too: for players yet learn their parts without book, and these a meinie of them can scarcely read within book. These are empty feeders ( e Math. 6. 22 ) dark eyes ( f Math. 9 38 〈◊〉. 3. ) ill workmen to hasten in the lords harvest, ( g Luc. 14. 17 ) messengers that can not call. ( h Mat. 23. 34 ) Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord, ( i Math. 5. 13 ) unsavoury salt, ( k Mat. 15. 14 ) blind guides, ( l Isay. 36. 10 ) sleepy watchmen, ( m . Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. & . ) untrusty dispensers of God's secrets, ( n 2. Tim. 2. 15 ) evil dividers of the word, ( o 〈◊〉. 1. 9 ) weak to withstand the adversary, ( p 2. T . 3. 15. 16. not able to confute: And to conclude, so far from making the man of God perfect to all good works, that rather the quite contrary may be confirmed. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid us view these places. Mala. 2. vers. 7. Esay. 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophet Malachi in the second chapter, and seventh verse, sayeth on this sort: For the priests lips should preserve knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth. For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. In which words the Prophet doth signify, that the Priests aught to be learned in the law and able to instruct, which no man denieth, and if there be any crept into the ministery, which a not able so to do, it is to be ascribed, either to the negligence of t Bishop, and such as have to do therein, or to the necessity of the Reading is profitable. t me. But here is nothing spoken against reading, for any thing that I can gather: and if any man should come unto me, and demand of me, any question touching the law of God, I think I should better satisfy him, if I did read the words of the law unto him, than if I should make a long tedious discourse of mine own, to little or no purpose. It is the word itself that pierceth and mou th' the conscience. I speak not this against interpreting of the Scriptures, or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. (for I know they be both necessary) but against such as be enemies to the reading of them. The places in the. 56. of Esay, and in the eleventh of zachary, tend to the same purpose, they all speak against ignorant, foolish, slothful governors and pastors, there is nothing in them that condemneth or disalloweth reading of the Scriptures, or reading of Prayers: Not more is there in the fifteenth of Matthew, nor. 1. Timo. 3. read the places and you shall soon see, with how little judgement they be quoted against such ministers, as use to read the scriptures and prayers to the people. If you had said against dumb & unlearned ministers, view these places, you had said something. For Reading ministers. 1. Tim. 4. For reading ministers that is, for reading the Scriptures publicly in the church by ministers, view you these places. 1. Tim. 4. Till I come give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. In the which words as Musculus sayeth: Exprimit ordinem Ecclesiasticum, quo primùm ex Musculus. sacris Scriptures aliquid legebatur, deinde exhortatio & doctrina subijciebatur. He expresseth the Ecclesiastical order, wherein first there is some thing read out of the Scriptures, then followeth exhortation and doctrine. Luke. 4. Where we learn that Christ being at Nazareth, as his custom Christ read the scripture. was, went into the Synagogue on the Saboth day, and stood up to read. etc. And yet you say, Reading is not feeding, but it is as evil as playing Pag. 163, Lin. 2. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. upon a stage, and worse to, for players yet learn their parts without book and these a many of them, can scarcely read within book. That reading is feeding, Musculus giveth these reasons: first, Reading is feeding. Musculus. because it maketh the people expert and cunning, in the Scriptures, so that they can not be so easily deceived with false teachers. And therefore josephus Lib. 2. contra Appion. speaking of this commodity of having the Scriptures read, sayeth on this sort: In unaquaque septimana ad legem audiendam conveniunt universi. Nostrorum quilibet de legibus interrogatus, facilius quam nomen suum recitat. universas quip mox à primo sensu discentes in animo velut inscriptas habemus. Every week all the people come together to hear the Law. Every one of us demanded any question of the law, can answer readily, as he can tell his own name. For we learning the law even from our youth, have it, as it were written in our memory. Secondly the public reading of the Scripture, is good for such as can not read themselves: to such likewise as can read, but yet have not the books of the holy Scripture at home in their houses. Thirdly, it maketh the people better to understand the Sermons preached unto them: because through the continual hearing of the Scriptures read, they be acquainted with the words and phrases of the same. Last of all, it may be that some men be more edified by the simple reading of the scriptures, than by sermons. Admonition. By this book bore reading is (q) 1. Cor. 3. 5. good tilling, and single service saying is excellent (r) 1. Cor. 3. 9 building, and he is shepherd good enough, that can, as popish Priests could, out of their Portuis say fairly their divine service. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 165. Sect. ult. & Pag. 166. Here is much a do about bore reading and single service saying: by like you lack matter to make out your volume, when you iterate one thing so often. I tell you again, no honest, godly, or learned man, Not godly man 〈◊〉 reading in the church. ever hither to did or will disallow reading of the Scriptures in the Church, or a prescript order of Common prayers. Show any learned man's judgement to the contrary, show the example of any Christian Church of antiquity, or of any late reform Church, wherein there is not both reading of the Scriptures in the public congregation, and a prescript order of Common prayers. Nay show any one syllable in the Scriptures to the contrary. As for your places alleged out of the 1. Corinth. 3. vers. 5. And 1. Corinth. 3. vers. 9, The one to prove that by the book bore reading is good tilling, the other that by the same book, single service saying is excellent building. etc. They show your intolerable audacity (I will term it no worse) in abusing the Scriptures. In that place to the Corinth's the Apostle sayeth thus. Who is Paul then? who is Apollo's? 1. Cor. 3. But the ministers by whomeyee believed, and as the Lord gave to every man. How can you gather hereof that by the Communion book bore reading is good tilling, or how can you hereof conclude (that which I think you mean) that the sole and only reading of the Scriptures is not tilling, or that the Scriptures may not be read in the open congregation by the Minister? what s quele call you this? Paul and Apollo's be the ministers by whom you Unskilful Logicians. believed, as the Lord gave to every man: Therefore the reading of the Scriptures edify not, or it is not lawful for them to be read in the Church by the Minister. You come to soon from the university to have any great skill in Logic: but belike because there is mention made of tylling in the next verse of that chapter, therefore you quote it in the margin, missing only the line: for this is your usual manner, if you have but one word in a text which you use in your book, you quote the place, as though it made for your purpose. This is neither plain nor wise dealing? The examples of such as have been converted by reading of Pag. 168. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Many converted by hearing the scriptures read. the Scriptures, and hearing of them read, be infinite. I know not whereunto this your bitterness against reading of the Scripture tendeth, except it be to confirm an other opinion of the Papists, touching the obscurity and darkness of the Scripture, or diverse senses and understanding of the same. If you join with them in that also, than I have to say unto you with S. Augustine: In his quae apertè in Scriptures posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent siden, moresque vivendi. August. In those things that be plain and manifest in the Scriptures, are all such things contained, which pertain to faith and good manners. And with Hierom. in Psalm. 86. Sicut scripserunt Apostoli, sic & ipse Dominus, hoc est, per evangelia Jerome. sua locutus est, ut non pauci intelligerent, sed ut omnes. Plato scripsit in scriptura, sed non scripsit populo sed paucis, vix enim intelligunt tres homines. Isti verò, hoc est, principes E clesiae, & principes Christi non scripserunt paucis, sed universo populo. As the Apostles write so did the Lord, that is, he spoke by his Gospels, not that a few, but that all might understand. Plato writ, but he writ to few, not to the people, for scarce three do understand him: these, that is the Apostles writ not to few, but to the whole people. But I think you doubt not of this matter. If the reading of the scriptures edify not, what needed Chrysostom Chrysostom exhorteth the people to get Bibles. writing upon the third to the Coloss. so earnestly exhort the people to get them Bibles, or at the lest the new Testament, to be as it were a continual master unto them to instruct them? What needed the same Chrysostom Hom. 3. De Lazaro. with Idem. such vehement words, have moved the people to read the Scriptures, declaring not only the commodity of them, but the easiness also to be understood? Is not this saying, both ancient and true, That when we read the Scriptures God talketh with us: when we pray then we talk with God? But touching this matter I refer you to that which I have spoken before in the former part of your Admonition. And also I beseech you take pains to peruse the. 15. Article of that notable jewel, and worthy Bishop late of Sarisburie, wherein he of purpose entreateth of this matter against M. Harding. Io. Whitgifte. All this you have left unanswered, save only that you have touched the last of Masculus his reasons. ¶ Of Ministering and Preaching by Deacons. Tract. 14. The. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 93. Sect. 2. We read in the eight of the Acts, that Philip being a Deacon Philip deacon baptized. did baptize. T. C. Pag. 128. Lin. 1. Of ministering of the sacraments in private places and by women, I have spoken before, there remaineth therefore only in this section to speak of the Deacons, that they aught not to minister the sacrament. Which although I have done partly before, and partly afterward will do, when I shall show that it appertaineth not to them to minister the word, and therefore not the sacraments (being things the ministery whereof aught not to be severed) yet I will in a word answer, those arguments, that M. Doctor bringeth for to prove, that they may minister the sacraments, whereof the first is, that Philip in the. 8. of the Acts baptized. But I would gladly ask M. Doctor how he is able to prove, that that was Philip the Deacon, and not rather Philip the Apostle, seeing that S. Luke when he speaketh of Philip that was the Deacon, speaketh of him, with that title & addition of Deaconship, and there is great doubt amongst writers, which Philip that was, that S. Luke mentioneth in the eight chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. But let it be that Philip that was the Deacon. I answer that he was no Deacon then, for the Church of jerusalem whereof he was Deacon, being scattered, he could be no more Deacon of it, or distribute the money that was collected for the poor of that Church. And further I answer that he was afterward an Evangelist, and therefore preached not by virtue of his Deaconship, (whose calling is not to preach) but by that he was an Evangelist, whose office put upon him a necessity of preaching. Io. Whitgifte. In the beginning of that. 8. chap. of the Acts. S. Luke declareth, that all the Apostles Philip that baptized Samaria, was a Deacon. did still remain at jerusalem, wherefore it could not be Philip the Apostle which was now at jerusalem: but it must needs be Philip the Deacon that was dispersed with the rest & came to Samaria, where he now preached & baptized. And of this judgement is M. Caluine whose words upon the same place & chapped. be these: Caluine. Seeing Luke had before declared, that the Apostles did not stir from jerusalem, it is probable, that one of the seven Deacons, whose daughters also did Prophecy is here mentioned. M. Gualther writing upon the same place sayeth thus. This Philip was not the Apostle, Gualther. but he which was reckoned before among the Deacons, as the ancient Ecclesiastical writers do with one consent testify: especially Epiphanius writing De Simone & Simoniacis. That this Philip still remained Deacon, and that he was called an Evangelist, in respect that he preached the Gospel though he were but a Deacon, Act. 21. it appeareth Act. 21. Where S. Luke speaketh of him in this manner. And we entering into the house of Philip the Evangelist, which was one of the seven, etc. And further, that he still remained Deacon, although he was now departed from Gualther. jerusalem, M. Gualther declareth in the eight of the Acts, in these words: Although it was the office of Deacons to take charge of the common treasures of the Church, and of the poor, yet was it herewith permitted unto them to take the office of preaching, if at anyttme necessity required, as we have hitherto seen in the example of Stephen. And peradventure there was not so great need of Deacons at jerusalem, when the Church was through persecution dispersed: and therefore they which before werc stewards of the Church goods, did give themselves wholly to the ministery of the word. The Epipha. de Simone & Simoniac. words of Epiphanius, whom M. Gualther mentioneth, be these: For when Philip being a Deacon had not authority to lay on hands, that thereby he might give the holy Ghost, etc. Whereby it is plain, that Philip being Deacon did baptize, though he had not authority imponendi manus, to lay on hands. Augustine also in his questions, speaking of Philip, saith thus: Et iternm mnltum Aug. in quaest. ex utroque test. distare inter Diaconum & Sacerdotem, liber approbat quem dicimus actus Apostolorum etc. Again the book, which we call the Acts of the Apostles, doth prove that a Deacon differeth much from a Priest, for when they of Samaria believed the preaching of Philip the Deacon, they sent (saith he) unto them Peter and john. etc. The second division. T. C. Page. 128. Lin. 19 & Sect. 1 After you say that Deacons are not permitted with us to celebrated the Lords supper, and why then should they be suffered to minister baptism? as if the one Sacrament were not as precious as the other. This is a miserable rending in sunder of those things which God hath joined together, not only to separate the ministry of the Sacraments from the word, but also the ministry of one sacrament from an other. And what reason is there, that it should be granted unto one that can not preach (being as they (a) Why▪ do you accounted him no minister▪ this gear would be marked. call him a minister) to minister both the sacraments, when as the same is not permitted unto a Deacon (as they call him) which is able to preach? I do not speak it, for that I would have those which be deacons in deed, that is, which have charge to provide for the poor of some one congregation, should either preach or minister the sacraments, but I say that it is against all reason to permit the ministery of the sacraments to those which can not preach, and to deny it to those which are able to preach. Io. Whitgifte. I do but in that point agree with the Scriptures, and all other writers, for the most part, both old and new, who testify that Deacons did preach the word, and minister the Sacrament of Baptism. But I can not read in any author, where they ministered the Communion, and therefore I am bold to speak as I have learned out of the holy Scriptures, and other godly writers: neither is this to rend in sunder either the Sacraments from the word, or the Sacraments from themselves: but to keep the order used in the Church in the Apostles time, and since their time. No man that is able to preach, being for his other qualities also meet, is debarred from ministering the Sacraments, if he be in the ministery: but no man be he never so able in all respects, may presume to take an office upon him, whereunto he is not called. Therefore he that can not preach, and yet by the order of the Tract. 6. & cap. 1. Tract. 9 cap. 1 diuis. 15. Church is admitted to minister the Sacraments, is a lawful minister of the same: and he that can preach, except by order he be thereunto called, may not intrude himself into any function of the ministery. I have also declared before, that even from the beginning, the administration of the Sacraments have been committed to some, to whom the preaching of the word hath not been committed. The. 3. division. Admonition. Touching Deacons though their names be remaining, yet is the office foully perverted and turned upside down, for their duty in the Primitive Church, was to (s) Rom. 12. 8. gather the a mes diligently, and to distribute it faithfully: also for the sick and impotent people to provide painfully, having ever a diligent care, that the charity of godly men were not wasted upon loiterers (t) 2. Th. 3. 10 and idle vagabonds. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 118. Sect. 2. It is true that in the primitive Church, the office of a Deacon was to collect and provide for the poor, but not only, for it was also their office to preach, and to baptize. For Stephen and Philip being Deacons did preach the Gospel. Acts. 6. 7. 8. And Philip did baptize the Eunuch. Act. 8. T. C. Pag. 128. Sect. 1 In the. 118. page, unto the example of Philip he addeth S. Stephen, which was one of the Deacons, which he affirmeth to have preached. But I deny it: for all that long oration which he hath in the seventh of the Acts, is no sermon, but a defence of himself, against those accusations which were laid against him, as (*) No such thing to be found in Beza his annotations. M. Beza doth very learnedly and substantially prove in his annotations upon those places of S. Stephen's disputations and defence. Now to defend himself being accused, is lawful not for the Deacons only, but for any other Christian, and we read nothing that Stephen did there, either touching the defence of his cause, or the sharp rebuking of the obstinate Pharisies and Priests, but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor minister's have done with us, when they have been convented before their persecutors: and whereas he ayth, that Philip baptized, I have showed before by what authority he did it, that is, not in that he was a Deacon, but for 〈◊〉 he was an Evangelist. Io. Whitgifte. This is a hard and new devised shift. You imagine (as I think) that you are in Stephen his oration a serm n. the Logic or Philosophy schools, where you may feign what distinctions you list, but all will not serve. The accusations are contained in the. 13. &. 14. verse of the. 6. chap. let the Reader compare his sermon with them, & judge whether he spoke in the way of preaching, or of defending himself. Although a man may make his Apology in preaching, & answer accusations in a sermon: and surely that sharp & severe repr hension, that he concludeth with, beginning at the. 51. verse, doth evidently declare that it was a sermon: Moreover it was in the Synagogue which was called the Synagogue of the Libertines. etc. The end of it was to prove true religion, and the true worshipping of God, to be affixed neither to the Temple, nor to external ceremonies, but to consist of faith in God. And yet I do not deny but that Stephen also did use this sermon as an answer to those matters, whereof he was accused: but he answered in the way of preaching, & not of pleading. And that doth M. Gualther directly affirm: for Gualther. although he call this an oration, & a defence, yet in the. 8. chap. he proveth by this example of Stephen, that Deacons were permitted together with the charge of the goods of the Church, and of the poor, to preach, as I have showed before. And the Authors of the Centuries, speaking of that time, say thus: It appeareth also out of the. 6. & 8. of the Acts Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. that Deacons did teach. And in the same book & chap. Others were Deacons, whose office was to serve the tables at jerusalem, so long as there was there a community of goods. Act. 6. notwithstanding it appeareth by Steven, Act. 6. & by Philip, Act. 8. that they did teach & work miracles, & every where in other Churches, the office of Deacons was to teach & minister. I can not find in M. Beza his Annotations any such thing, as you here affirm. Although if it were so, yet doth it not improve this to be a sermon: for than was the oration of Peter's no sermon. Act. 2. wherein he answered to those that accused the Apostles of drunkenness: neither can Paul be said to have preached. Act. 24. If this be true that an Apology may not be made by the way of preaching. If it be lawful thus to invent distinctions to shifted off so manifest examples of Scriptures, than it is an easy matter to shifted off any thing that shall be propounded. I have proved by the Scripture itself, by Epiphanius, and by M. Gualther, and by the authors of the Centuries, that Philip being a Deacon did both baptize and preach, and you only deny it, without either author or reason. The. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 118. Sect. 2. justinus Martyr one of the most ancient writers, in his second Deacons helped in the ministration of the supper. Apology saith, that in the administration of the Supper, Deacons did distribute the bread and the wine to the people. The same doth M. Caluine affirm of Deacons in his Institutions. chap. 19 T. C. Page. 128. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He addeth further out of justine Martyr, that the Deacons did distribute the bread and the wine, in the administration of the Supper. Tully saith in a certain place, that it is as great a point of wisdom in an advocate, or pleader of causes, to hold back and to keep close that which is hurtful to his cause, as it is to speak that which is profitable. M. Doctor observeth none of these points, for besides that the things which he brought for the defence of the service book, are such, as they have before appeared: in seeking to defend it, he manifestly oppugneth it. For before h said, that the book of service doth not permit Deacons to minister the supper of the Lord, and that by way of allowing of the book, and here proveth that the Deacons did minister the sacrament of the Supper, and that also as a thing which he doth allow of. But to let that pass, I beseech thee (good Reader) mark, what a (*) An 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cavil. ministering of the Supper this is, which justine maketh mention of, and note with what conscience M. Doctor handleth this cause. justine saith, that after the Scriptures are read, and preached of, and prayers made, bread and wine, and water was brought forth, and that the minister made prayers and thanksgiving in the hearing of the people, (which is that which the Evangelists call the blessing, and hath been of later times called the consecration) and after that the people were partakers of them, that then this being done, the Deacons do carry of that which was left unto those which were not present (for that corruption of sending the Communion unto the houses was then in the Church, against which I have before spoken) now if to carry to a private house the bread and wine which was blessed, or set apart by prayers, and by obeying the institution of Christ by the minister, be to minister the sacrament of the Supper, than Serapions boy, of whom mention is made by Eusebius, ministered the sacrament. For Serapion being sick, as Li. 6. ca 43 I have before showed; and sending his boy to the minister for the sacrament, received the same at the hands of his boy, for that the minister being sick, could not come himself. So by M. Doctor's reason Serapions boy ministered the sacrament. Io. Whitgifte. Where doth M. Doctor say that Deacons did minister the lords supper? set down his words: Is there no end of your falsifying and untrue gathering? Let the Reader compare the words that I have recited out of justinus Martyr with your collection, and then judge of the honesty and sincerity of your dealing. The Admonition so speaketh of Deacons as though their office in the primitive Church, had been only to gather, and to distribute alms. This I deny, and prove that Deacons did then also preach, baptize, and distribute the bread and the wine in the administration of the lords Supper. I not where say, neither do I believe that they did at any time minister the lords Supper, and you might have understood, that to distribute the bread and wine to the people in the administration of the Supper, is not to minister the Sacrament of the Supper. For these Deacons of whom justinus Martyr speaketh, yea and Serapions boy also did the one, but they did not the other: and therefore the spirit of cavilling hath driven you to this surmise. The. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 129. Lin. 11. A man would not think, that one that hath been the Queens Masesties public professor of Many words bestowed in the confutation of that which is not affirmed. divinity in Cambridge, should not know to distinguish, & put a difference between ministering the sacrament, & helping to distribute the bread & the cup of the sacrament. And if M. Doctor could not learn this in books, yet he might have either seen it, or at lest herded tell of it, in all reform Churches almost, where the Deacons do assist the minister in helping of him to distribute the cup, and in some places also the bread, for the quicker and speedier dispatch of the people, being so many in number, that if they should all receive the bread & the cup at the ministers hand, they should not make an end in eight hours, which by that assistance may be finished in two, which is that that M. Caluine saith. For he saith, the deacons did reach the cup, & maketh no mention of the bread. And if this be to minister the sacrament, than they that cut the loaf in pieces, they that fetch the wine for the supper, they that pour it forth from greater vessels into glasses & cups, or whosoever aideth any thing in this action, do minister the sacrament, than the which thing there can be nothing more ridiculous. Io. Whitgifte. A man would not have thought, that one which hath ambitiously desired to be the queens majesties divinity reader, & yet pretendeth such purity & simplicity, would upon any occasion (much less of none) use such contemmptuous & deriding speeches towards one not so much his inferior. But I pass all over quietly, desiring only the Reader to take these & such like notes of your mortification, modesty, & plain dealing. And mark I pray you, how many words he spendeth in this place to confute me, which speak no otherwise than he would have me to speak. Surely it is very like that (when you were answering this part) the old grief conceived for missing the divinity Lecture came into your mind, & so much overcame you, that you could not understand what I had said: otherwise it could not have been possible that a man in his right wits should so far have been overshot. For mark my saying that you confute, and you shall find it to differ very little in words, but in effect nothing at all, from that which you in confutation hereof affirm to be the use in reform Churches. The. 6. division. Admonition. Now it is the first step to the ministery, nay rather a mere order of Priesthood. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 119. Lin. 2. It may well be counted the first step to the ministery, as it hath been from the Apostles time: and S. Paul joineth them together. 1. Tim. 3. T. C. Page. 129. Sect. 1 In the end M. Doctor to shut up this matter, saith, that it is the first step to the ministry, and so joined of S. Paul in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothy. But what a reason is this? to be a Deacon is the first step to the ministry, therefore the Deacon may preach & minister the sacraments, when as the contrary rather followeth. For if it be a step to the ministry, than it is not the ministry, but dyffereth from it, and so aught not to do the things that belong to the minister. Io. Whitgifte. You are but disposed to counterfeit, I must give you leave so to do, & be content: But I trust it will turn smally to your credit. The words of the Admonition be these: Now it is the first step to the ministry, nay rather a mere order of Priesthood. The which words I answer in this manner: It may well be counted the first step to the ministery, as it hath been from the Apostles time, and S. Paul joineth them together. 1. Tim. 3. Now let the Reader consider, whether I use this for an argument, or not, to prove that a Deacon may preach & minister the sacraments. If I should so have concluded, the argument might have been proved, for preaching and baptizing: but seeing my Answer is direct to the words of the 〈◊〉 in an other matter, it is too much for you thus deridingly to feign, and to utter an five truth. It seemeth you want false arguments to dally with, when you are fain to 〈◊〉 some of your own, and so for want of other sport, to imitate the Cast that 〈◊〉 with her own tail. The. 7. Division. T. C. Page. 129. Sect. 1 But I any that it is or aught to be always a step to the ministery. I know that it hath been the use of long time, and I know also, that there be very many which interpret the place of S. Paul (where he speaking of the Deacons that behave themselves well, that they get themselves good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, a degree, to be a minister, or a Bishop.) But I will show a many est reason high it can not so be understanded, which is for that as the functions of a Deacon, or a minister te 〈◊〉: so are the gifts also, whereby those functions are executed likewise divers, & therefore there may be some men for their wisdom & gravity, discretion & faithfulness, whatsoever other gifts are required in him that should do this office of providing for the poor & to be a good de con: 〈◊〉 notwithstanding for some impediment in his tongue, or for want of utterance, shall never be able as long as he liveth to be a good minister of the word, and therefore the 〈◊〉 being divers, 〈◊〉 those offices must be executed (although it is neither unlawful nor 〈◊〉 to make of deaco t a minister, if he have gifts for that purpose) yet I deny that S. Paul appointeth that the 〈◊〉 should be (as it were) the seed or fry of the ministers, or that he mean th' by those words, that the deaconship is a step to the pastorship. Which may yet also further appear, by the 〈◊〉 offpecche which the Apostle useth, for he doth not say, that they that do the office of a deaconship well, shall come to, or get a good standing, but he saith, that in so doing they doc get them 〈◊〉 a good standing, that is, they get themselves authority & estimation in the Church, whereby they may be both the bolder to do their office, & whereby they may do it with more spruce, whereas when they 〈◊〉 naughtily, they neither dare do oftentimes that which they should do, nor yet that which they do well taketh so good effect, because of the dyscredite, which cometh by their evil 〈◊〉. And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hither to nothing, to prove why either Deacons aught, or else have wont either to preach, or to minister the sacraments. Io. Whitgifte. It is not necessary that every one which is a Deacon, should be preferred to the A deaconsh 〈◊〉 a step into th' ministery ministery: for it may be that he shall so evil use himself in that function, that he be thought unmeet further to be preferred. But you have not read, as I think, sithence the Apostles time, of any that hath been orderly preferred to the ministery, not being Deacon before. Ambrose, Chrysostom, the Greek Paraphrast, Bullinger, Gualther, Hemingi s, & divers other do so expound these words of Paul. 1. Ti. 3. (Qui bene ministraverunt. gradum sibi honun cquirunt. etc.) that they make the deaconship a step to the ministery. And therefore your reason had need be very good, that shall convince all these of unskilfulness. S. Paul doth not make much difference betwixt the gifts that are to be required 〈◊〉 a Bishop, & the gifts that are to be required in a Deacon, as it appeareth, 1. Tim. 3. and in deed if you respect the gifts, required in them both, there is not much difference between them, & therefore your reason is not so strong, as you make it. Moreover I never herded that an impediment in the tongue, or some want of utterance were sufficient cau to debar a man (otherwise meet) from the ministery. In deed S. Paul requireth that he should be aptus ad docendum, which he may be, though he hath some imp iment in speech. For S. Paul doth not mean by these words, volubility of tongue, but wisdom, discretion, & order in teaching. If you mean such a one, as either cannot speak at all, or not utter his mind in such sort, as he may be understood, him I think neither to be sit for to be minister, nor a deacon, but (as I told you before it is not necessary, that whosoever is deacon should after be minister, no more than it is that a Bachelor of Art should be a Master of Art, or a Bachelor of divinity a Doctor, for there may be just causes to stay them from proceeding any further. And therefore saith S. Paul 1. Tim. . Qui bene ministr au rint, 〈◊〉 bonum acquirunt. etc. They which have ministered well, get themselves a good degree. So that this reason of yours is easily pushed away. I know 〈◊〉 oh exp unde the words of S. Paul as you oh, & the interpretation is not amiss: yet are not the reasons sufficient to improve the other, to the which I most incline, because it is allowed of most learned men, and the words themselves do very fitly bear it. But the matter doth not depend only upon these words of S. Paul, but upon the continual practice of the Church also from time to tyme. The. 8. division. T. C. Pag. 129. Sect. ult. And albeit M. Doctor be not able to show it, yet I confess that it hath been in times past, permitted unto them in some Churches to baptize, in other some to preach and baptize, & sometimes also to minister the supper: but I say also that this was a corruption, & used at those times, when there were very many other gross & untolerable abuses, from the which I do appeal unto that, which was first, that is, the institution of the Apostles, which limited and bounded every function within his several limits and borders, which it aught not to pass. Io. Whitgifte. Yes I have proved it by sufficient testimonies to have been so, even in the Apostles Deacons baptized. Tertul. time, when the Church was furthest from corruption: and now I will add a little more. Tertullian in his book de baptismo hath these words, Baptizandi quidem iu habet summus sacerdos, qui est Episcopus, deinde Presbyteri & Diaconi, non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate, propter Ecclesiae honorem: The high Priest, which is the Bishop, hath authority to baptise, so have the Ministers and Deacons, but not without the authority of the Bishop, for the honour of the Church. Jerome adversus Luciferianos, saith thus, I do not deny, but that that is the 〈◊〉 of Hierom. the Church, that the Bishop should go to lay his hand by the invocation of the holy spirit, upon those which a far of in little cities by ministers and Deacons were baptized. And a little after he saith, that neither the ministers nor deacons have authority to baptize, without the commandment of the Bishop. M. Beza lib. confess. cap. 5. saith, that deacons did oftentimes supply the office of the Pastors Beza. in the administration of the sacraments, and celebrating of Marriage. And to prove this he quoteth. 1. Cor. 1. verse. 14. 15. etc. and john. 4. verse. 2. But the thing is manifest, and can not be denied: wherefore you are but disposed to play johannes ad oppositum. ¶ Of matters touching the Communion. Tract. 15. Of the orders and ceremonies used in the celebration of the Communion. Cap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. They had no introite, for Celestinus a Pope brought it in, about the year. 430. But we have borrowed ap ce of one out of the Mass book. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 94. Sect. 1. 2. What you understand here by the Introite, certainly I know The introite. not. The first thing that we say at the Communion is the lords prayer, which Celestinus did not invent, but Christ. Matth. 6. nor The Apostles began the lords supper with the lords prayer, first use in the celebration of the lords Supper, but the Apostles, as we read in good Chronicles: next unto that is a very godly and necessary prayer, worthy to be said in the celebration of such a mystery, and therefore no matter at all who invented it, or brought it in: And yet Celestinus was a godly Bishop, and the Church of Rome, at that time had the substance of the sacraments, according to God's word, neither was there any superstition mixed with them: notwithstanding I know not any Introite of Celestinus invention, that Celestinus introite what it was. we have in our order of the Communion: for the Introite that he appointed was one of the psalms, as Volateranus, Gratianus, and Polydorus Vergiliu do testify. And we have not any psalm in the celebration of the supper: if we had, it were not to be reproved. This I am sure of, that it is not evil, because it is in the Mass book, except it be repugnant to the word of God: for the Lord's prayer The epistle and Gospel. some of the psalms, the Gospels and Epistles, the Nicene creed etc. be in the Mass book, and yet good, so is there some other good prayers in it also. Admonition. The second▪ They read no fragments of the Epistle and Gospel, we use both. Answer Pag. 94. Sect. ult. &. Pag. 95. Sect. 1 And what fault can you found in that? is not the whole scripture, and every piece of it profitable to edify? can the scripture at any time in the open congregation be read out of season, being in a known tongue? but I think your quarrel is at reading, not against the Epistle and the Gospel. Always in the Church there hath been read the scriptures in the celebration of the mysteries, and I am sure, the Gospel was not wont to be read from the one end to the other at one time. Well, Reading of scriptures at the communion. Anno. 111. Alexander. it is but your opinion without reason, that the Epistle and Gospel ought not to be read at that time: for you bring no proof, and I think the contrary. first, because they be scripture, and tend to edify: secondly, because it hath been the manner of long time, even since Alexander's time. Anno. 111. Admonition. The third. The Nicene creed was not read in their communion, we have it in ours. Answer Pag. 95. Sect. 3 The Nicene Creed and every part of it is grounded upon the The Nicene Creed. word of God, it was collected by that famous Council of Nice, to confound that detestable heresy of the Arrians, and therefore meet to be read in all Christian congregations, neither can any mislike it, but Arrians and such like, of the which sect you give just suspicions that you be fautors. This Creed in this form was not framed in the Apostles time, because the heresy of Arrius was not then hatched. And therefore no good reason to say it was not read in the Apostles time at the communion: Ergo it aught not to be read now. But this argument is intolerable, the Nicene Creed is read at the communion, therefore the communion is not sincerely ministered. All these three reasons be taken ab authoritate negatiuè: and therefore of no force, except we will also grant these to be true, and such like, scilicet, Then they had no Christian Princes, and therefore we may have no Christian Princes. Then they had no civil or politic laws, Ergo we aught to have none. Then the Church had no external peace, but was under persecution, Ergo it should have no peace now. Then Christians had propriety in nothing, but all things were common: Ergo no man may have any thing of his own, but common to other: we do not read expressly, that Children were then baptized, therefore they aught not to be baptized now (for so do the Anabaptists reason) neither do we read that women did then receive the supper, therefore they aught not to do it now: with infinite other as absurd as these. T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 1 Unto the three next sections contained in the. 94. 95. and a piece of the. 96. pages, touching that which is called the Introite, and (*) You may aswell call chapters fragments, for they are but pieces of the gospels and epistles, and were first so divided by men. fragments of the Epistles and Gospels, and the rehearsal of the Nicene creed, I have declared before the causes of our misliking, neither mean I to stand to refute the slanderous surmises, which M. Doctor raiseth of the authors of the Admonition, whereby he would bring them into the suspicion of Arrianisme, to whom all those that fear God bear witness, that they are most far from. He himself notwithstanding once again in the last of these three sections. 96. pag. doth lay the manifest foundations of that part of Anabaptisme, which standeth in having all things common, saying directly against S. Peter, that in 5. Act. the time of the Apostles, Christians had propriety in nothing. And further giving great cause of triumph of the one side to the Eatabaptists, and such as deny the baptism of young infants, in matching that with those things which the church may (although not without incommodity, yet without impiety) be without: and of the other side unto the Papists, whilst he sayeth that we read not of any women which received the lords supper in the Apostles tyme. For this is that they allege to prove their unwritten verities, when as it is easily answered both to the Papists, and M. Doctor, that forsomuch as the Apostle doth witness, that the Churches of Corinthe consisting of men and women did receive, that therefore women also did receive, and were partakers of the lords table. Thus it is manifest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition, sticketh not to (*) He pleasureth them in declaring the absurdities of their arguments. pleasure three notable heretics, Anabaptists, Catabaptistes, and Papists. Io. Whitgifte. Yet you should here have excused their ignorance, in certain points and their absurd reasoning: but seeing you are content so lightly to pass all this over, and leaving the defence of the Admonition, seek to confute my collections, I am content also that it stand untouched, and will answer that which you only seem to mislike. I do not otherwise suspect them of Arrianisme, than they have given just occasion, by disliking the public reading of that Creed, which was purposely made to overthrow Arrianisme. I trust there is a great number of such as fear God in the Church of England that know not them, but yet for their rashness in this point, have them in some suspiition. By these examples of negative arguments from the Scriptures, I overthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons, that they do, or can use in the defence of their errors, so do I likewise yours, used against this Church of England, neither speak I any otherwise of the baptism of infants, or of women's receiving the Communion, than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench. against the Anabaptistes, and M. Caluine also in his book written against them. But this answer sore troubleth you, and therefore you only reply against it with slanderous words: but lest you should by such means abuse the Reader, I will set e down both Zuinglius and calvin's words. M. Zuinglius in his Elench. contra Zuinglius. Anabap. saith thus: You can find no hole to escape at. For you foolyshly reason negatively from deeds and examples, nay from no deeds and no examples. For what do you else when you say, we read not that the Apostles did baptise infants, Ergo, infants ought not to be baptised? Doth not all the force of your reasons consist herein? And again: Wherefore it is to be marveled at, with what face they dare measure the Baptism of Infants by the Scripture, or rather by not scripture, for they have nothing in the Scripture whereunto they may trust, but they make only the negative their foundation, when they say: we read not that the Apostles baptised infants, therefore they aught not to be baptised. etc. And in his book de Baptismo: of the baptism of infants and the first original thereof neither I, nor any other man can otherwise affirm (if we respect the express and evident word of God) than that it is that true and only baptism of Christ. For we may find many things of this sort, whereof although there be no express and plain testimony of God, yet they are not repugnant to his will, but rather agreeth with the same: of this sort is that, that we make women partakers of the Lords supper, when as notwithstanding we read of none that sat down in that Supper which Christ did institute. And M. Caluine in his book adversus Anabaptist. sayeth in like Caluine. manner, They have nothing to say against the Baptism of infants, but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did use it: to this I answer, that no more do we read in any place, that they did at any time minister the Supper of our Lord to any woman. And yet these two be neither Anabaptistes▪ Catabaptistes, nor Papists, but valiant captains against them all. Chap. 1. the second Division. Admonition. The fourth. There was then accustomed to be an examination of the communicantes, which now is neglected. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. How prove you that there was then any examination of communicantes? Examination of communicantes. If there had been either commandment or example for it in Scriptures, I am sure you would not have left it unquoted in the margin. Saint Paul sayeth. 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum. Let a man examine himself. etc. But he speaketh of no other examination: wherefore this reason of yours is altogether frivolous and without reason. And yet I do not disallow the examination of communicants, so there be a discreet respect had of the people, places, and other circumstances, neither is it neglected in this Church of England, but by learned and discrete ministers, with learning and discretion used. But note I pray you the force of this argument: some ministers neglect to examine the communicantes, Ergo, the Communion is not rightly and sincerely ministered, as though the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament. If you would reason after your accustomed manner, you should rather conclude thus, the Apostles were not examined when they received the communion, neither is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others, therefore there aught to be no such examination: this is your usual manner of reasoning, but it is childish, unless it were to conclude damnation or salvation. T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh how it is proved that there was any examination of the communicantes. After this sort, all things necessary were usee in the churches of God in the Apostles times, but examination of those, whose knowledge of the mystery of the Gospel was not known or doubted of, was a necessary thing, therefore it was used in the churches of God which were in the Apostles time. Io. Whitgifte. I deny your minor, first, because no such at that time would offer themselves to receive the communion. Secondly, because if any such did offer themselves, not being known, the fault is particular to themselves, and toucheth them only, not the whole Church. Thirdly, because if it had been so necessary a thing, Saint Paul would not have omitted it, especially when he had an especial cause to speak of it, as he had when he spoke of private examination of a man's self, 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home. etc. Of the which words M. Calvin speaking in . Cor. 11. Calvin. his book against the Anabaptists saith thus: But what need we so to dispute? seeing the Apostle himself in an other place treating of the manner, how every man should be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lord (as it behoveth him) doth not bid every one too examine the faults of his neighbour, but speaketh after this manner, Probet seipsum bomo. etc. Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of this bread and drink of this cup: for he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh his own damnation. In which words there are two things to be observed. first, that to communicate with those that are unworthy, is not to eat the bread of the Lord unworthily, Two things worthy the noting, for those which shall communicate. but not to prepare himself as he aught to do, and not to expend and consider his own faith and repentance. The second, that when the supper is to be received, we begin not with other men to examine them, but that we try ourselves: and surely if all things were exactly considered, even they which have so much leisure to inquire of other men's behaviour, are for the most part negligent, and forgetful of their own duties. So that it is necessary for every man to examine himself, and not so necessary for one man to examine another. But what I think of this kind of examining by other, I have declared in my Answer to the Admonition. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. Then he says he is sure there is neither commandment nor example in all the scripture. In A place of scripture fond applied. the second book of the Chronicles he might have read, that the Levites were there commanded 2. Chro. 35 to prepare the people unto the receiving of the passouer, in place whereof we have the Lords supper. Now examination being a part of the preparation, it followeth that there is commandment of examination. Io. Whitgifte. You bewray the weakness of your cause to much, when you are constrained to The replier applieth a ceremonial precept to the receiving of the communion. run so far for a precept to prove the examination of communicants to be commanded: and especially when you are compelled for want of other, to bring out ceremonial precepts long ago abrogated. This boldness of yours is so by custom confirmed that now without blushing it dare abuse any scripture, yea even touching the Ceremonies of the law, to prove any devise of your own: and why may not the Papists as well use the same for their auricular confession? But what if that commandment signify no such thing? from whence then will His precept proveth not his purpose. you fetch your proof? the words of josiah to the Levites in the. 2. Chro. 35. vers. 6. be these: So kill the passouer, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses. What one word of examining other is there in this commandment? These words Prepare your brethren Look the marginal note in the Geneva Bible. etc. are thus expounded by learned interpreters: Exhort your brethren to examine themselves, that they may be ready to eat the passouer, according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses. And manifest it is that neither the Priests, nor the Levites did did ever use any such kind of examination before the eating of the Passover, as you would insinuate, and therefore as yet you are utterly destitute of a commandment. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. And how holdeth (a) This is an are ument of your own framing. this argument. S. Paul commands that every man should prove himself, ergo, there is no commandment, that the ministers should prove and examine them? so I may say, that every man is a spiritual king to govern himself, therefore he may not be governed by others. The authors of the Admonition do not mean that every one should be examined, as those whose understanding in the Gospel is well known, or which do examine themselves, and so they interpret themselves, in the. 108. page. Io. Whitgifte. Surely it holdeth as the most part of your arguments do, that is loosely: for it is your reason, it is not mine: If I have framed any such argument, it will appear in my Answer. But this is your manner peuishly to pervert my words, and therefore have you concealed my book, lest your Reader should espy you, as he must needs do, if he hath any judgement. Neither do I mislike, that there should be examination of the communicantes, Examination of communicants 〈◊〉 disallowed. as I have said in my Answer: but I mislike this wrangling at the administration of the sacraments used in this church without cause: neither would I have this kind of examination counted as necessary, seeing it is no where commanded, neither yet any example of it, either in the Apostolical or primitive Church. In what words, or how do the Authors of the Admonition interpret themselves. pag. 108? or how do they know that men do not examine themselves? Chap. 1. the fifth Division. Admonition. The fifth. Then they ministered with common & (a) Act. 2. 46. Act. 20. 7. usual bread: now with water cakes brought in by Pope Alexander, being in form, fashion, and substance like their god of the altar. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 97. Sect. 2. & Pag. 98. Sect. 1. 2. The place you allege, Act. 2. (which is this) And they continued Of bread used in the commumon. daily with one accord in the temple, & breaking bread at home, did eat their meat together with gladness, and singleness of heart, maketh as much for your purpose, as it maketh for the Papists half Communion: for they allege it to prove that the Supper may be ministered with bread only: But learned interpreters, & especially M. Caluine, deny this place to be ment of the ministration of the supper: how soever it is understanded, it doth not necessarily prove, that the Sacrament was then ministered in common and usual bread, for there is no mention made of the kind of bread. If any think better of one kind of bread than of an other, in the ministration of the Sacrament, it is their error, and derogateth nothing from the order of administration. M. Calvin in his Institutions cap. 19 sect. 72. touching this matter writeth on this sort: Caeterùm in manum accipiant fideles necne: inter se dividant, an singuli quod sibi datum fuerit edant: calicem in diaconi manu reponant, an proximo tradant: Caluins' opinion of the kind bread. panis sit fermentatus, an azymus: vinum rubrum, an album, nihil refert: haec indifferentia sunt: & in ecclesiae libertate posita. But whether the faithful take it in their hands or no: whether they divide it among themselves, or every one eat that which is given unto them: whether they give the cup to the Deacon, or deliver it to him that is next: whether the bread be leavened or unleavened: the wine red or white, it makes no matter. These be indifferent things, and put in the liberty of the Church. Alexander lived Anno. III and was a good and godly Bishop: it Alexander's institution. is reported in some writers that he appointed unleavened bread to be used in the eucharist, because that christ himself used the same according to the law written Exod. 12. Deuteron. 16. But that he brought in wafer cakes, or appointed any certain form of bread, you can not prove, neither doth any credible author write it. Io. Whitgifte. To all this there is not one word answered. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 97. Sect. 2. & Pag. 98. Sect. 1 The truth is, that it skills not what kind of bread is used, leavened or unleavened so it be bread, although it were to be wished for the avoiding of superstition, that common and usual bread were used, Usual bread. and also that the form were altered, and the quantity increased. But these things are not de substantia Sacramenti, and therefore not sufficient to prove that the Supper is not sincerely ministered. M. Bucer likewise in his censure upon the book of Common prayers is of the same judgement, his words be these: The third chapter M. Bucers' opinion. is of the substance, form, and breaking of bread, which all do well enough agreed with the institution of Christ, whom it is manifest to have used unleavened bread, and easy to be broken, for he broke it, and gave to his disciples pieces of the bread broken. Touching the form and figure, whether it were round or square, there is nothing declared of the Evangelists. And because this bread is used only for a sign, and not for corporal nourishment, I see not, what can be reprehended in this description of the bread which is in this book, except some would peradventure have it thicker, that it may the more fully represent the form of true bread. T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. ult. I have spoken of this bread before in general, and if M. Doctor did not disagree with himself, we are here well agreed. For first he fay thee, it skilleth not what bread we have 〈◊〉 by and by he saith, that he wisheth it were common bread, and assigneth a great cause, which the book of service likewise assigneth, which is, to avoid superstition, and it is certainly known by experience that in divers places, the ignorant people that have been misled in popery, have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kneeled unto it, and held up their hands whilst the minister hath given it not those only which have received it, but those which have been in the Church and looked on. I speak of that which I know, and have seen with my eyes. Another reason is alleged by M. Bucer, which is, that there being some thicker substance of bread, and such as should move and stir up the taste better, the consideration of the mind which is conneyed by the senses, might be also the more effectual, and so the fruit of receiving greater. By the way note that either (*) Or else you speak of a matter you know not. Bucers censures upon the book of service be falsely ascribed unto him, or be corrupted, or else were not even in his own time here thought good, substantial and sufficient, when there is some cause by act of Parliament afterward found (I mean in the second book of King Edward) to mislike water cakes, and to change them into common bread. Howsoever it be, that circumstance would be well marked, that it was one thing to talk of a water cake in the use of the supper in King Edward's days before they were justly abolished, and another thing, now being revoked, after they were renioved. Io. Whitgifte. I am constant and agree with myself in the truth I thank God for it. I know the kind of bread to be indifferents my private judgement I have in my Answer uttered. But in such matters I submit myself to the determination of the Church, to whom God doth give his spirit most abundantly, so long as it followeth and embraceth the truth. The danger that you speak of, is in the form, and figure of the bread, not in the other qualities, nor in the substance: and therefore not pertaining to any thing that I have spoken. For the question is of leavened, or unleavened bread, not of roundness or squareness. etc. Although the form and figure also is indifferent, and in the power of the Church to appoint: wherefore there may no schism or division in the Church be made for it. M. Bucers' censures were upon the first book in King Edward's time, not upon Bucers' censure upon the first book 〈◊〉 King Edward's days. the second, therefore you are deceived. The Church hath authority in things indifferent to abolish or revoke as occasion serveth: and therefore that circumstance is not worth the noting. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 1 Besides that, we be called by the example of our sa ionce Christ to use the supper usual and common bread, for what time our saviour Christ celebrated his supper there was no other bread to be got but unleavened bread, there being astraight charge given by the law, that there should be then no leavened bread, and it is not to be doubted but that if there had in then when he celebrated his supper, as at other times nothing but leavened bread, he would not have caused unleavened bread to have been made for that purpose of celebrating his supper. Io. Whitgifte. It was not usual bread, but properly appointed for the celebrating of the passouer, Christ used unleavened bread. and then to be used and not otherwise usually and commonly for their usual and common bread was leavened, wherefore this maketh against you, and if you will have the commandments that appertethe to the eating of the passouer perpetual, Pa. 130. Sect. 2 and to be referred to the celebrating of the Lords supper, as by that precept 2. Chro. 35. before alleged, it seemeth you would, then must we make it a matter of necessity, to have unleavened bread: but as that is 〈◊〉, so is this also: for the kind of bread is indifferent, although (as M. Bucer saith) it cometh nearer to the institution The kind of bread of itself indifferent of Christ to use unle vened bread, b cause he did celebrated his supper with it, if there were not other circumstances and reasons to move the Church sometimes to use the contrary. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. But this is a gross oversight of M. Doctor, both 〈◊〉 this section and that which goeth 〈◊〉 fore, that he hath not learned to make a difference between that which is not ncerely done, & that which is not at all done, For in the former 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 upon the Admonition because they conclude that for as much as there is no examination therefore it is not 〈◊〉 and sincerely ministered. For saith he, the examination of the communicantes, is not of the jubstaunce of the sacrament, and in this section he says, that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacrament whether there be leavened or unleavened bread, therefore it is not sufficiently proved that the sacrament is not sincerely ministered: but he aught to have understanded, that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine, or the form of it, which is the institution (which things are only substantial parts) were wanting, that then there should have been no sacrament ministered at all, but they being retained, and yet other things used which are not convenient, the sacrament is ministered but not sincerely. For example in the popish baptism, there was the substance of baptism, but there being used spittle and cream, and candles and such beggarly trumpery, it was not sincerely ministered, therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely and another thing to minister, so that that which is of the substance should be wanting. But of this distinction I have spoken in another place, whereinto although M. Doctor falls in the next section, and in other places, yet this shall be an answer for all. Io. Whitgifte. It is as grossly replied unto: but my belief is, that the sacrament is as purely and sincerely ministered, with the one, as it is with the other. For not every fond, superstitious or vain opinion of every private person in this or that ceremony, ●erogateth any thing, from the pure and sincere administration of the sacraments, except it can be showed that the things used be wicked, unlawful or superstitious of themselves. Wherefore this is a gross quarrel of yours, it is no oversight of mine, for I am well assured of the right and sincere administration of the sacraments in this Church, both touching substance, ceremonies, and other circumstances. And it is too much injury that you do to this Church of England, in comparing the ceremenies thereof (which he pure) to the corrupt and superstitious ceremonies of the Papists used in baptism. But how should you otherwise utter your contempt or great spite against it. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 99 Sect. 1 These words that you use (like their God of the altar) be slanderous and false, we are as far from thinking the bread to be our God as you, and teach as sound doctrine touching this sacrament: And therefore you show of what spirit you be. T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 2. The meaning of the Admonition in saying (their God of the Altar) is plain enough, that it is understanded of the Papists, but that M. Doctor doth set himself to draw the authors of it into hatred, and he cannot be ignorant, that when a man speaketh of things which are 〈◊〉 known, he often useth (the, or that, or their,) without naming the things which he speaketh of. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the Admonition be these: Then they ministered with common and usual bread now with wafer cakes brought in by Pope Alexander, being in form, fashion and substance like their God of the Altar. Now let the Reader judge whether I charge them 〈◊〉 or no. Your excuse is but for a fashion, their opinion of this whole Church, is as peevishly and opprobriously uttered in sundry other places of their book, as it is in this. And therefore there is no great doubt of their meaning or if their meaning be not so, yet was it unadvisedly set down in that order, that me may justly suspect their meaning to be so. Chp. 1. the. 10. Division. Admonition. The sixth. They received it (c) Mat. 26. 20 Mar. 14. 18 Luk. 22. 14 john. 13. 28 sitting: we kneeling according to Honorius decree. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 99 Sect. 1. 2. 3. The places of scripture that you quote in the margent to prove sitting at the communion, declare that Christ and his disciples sat Kneeling and sitting at the Communion. at the table, but that proveth nothing. For you might as well have said, they received after supper, we before dinner: they at night, we in the morning: they after meat, we before meat, they in a private house we in the open Church, they being all men and in number twelve, we together with women, not strictly observing the number of twelve or any other number above three or four. This your argument toucheth them as well as it doth us, which receive it standing or walking. But to sit, stand, kneel or walk be not of the substance of the Sacrament: and therefore no impediments why it may not be sincerely ministered. It be hoveth humble and meek spirits, in such indifferent matters to submit themselves to the order of the Church, appointed by lawful authority, and not to make schisms and contentions in the Church for the satisfying of their own fantasies. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered. Chap. 1. the. II Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 99 Sect. ult. &. Pag. 100 Sect. 1 Kneeling the meetest gesture. Touching kneeling at the communion it forceth not who did first appoint it (although I can find no such decree made by Honorius) it is the meetest manner of receiving this sacrament in mine opinion, being commonly used in praying and giving of thanks, both which are annexed to this sacrament, and are to be required in the communicants, and therefore I think this to be a good reason: the meet est gesture for praying and thanksgiving is kneeling, but those that receive the Eucharist pray and give thanks, Ergo the meetest gesture for them is kneeling. The only peril is adoration, which may as well be committed sitting or standing. But wherefore then serveth preaching? there is as much danger of contempt the one way, as there is of adoration the other way. In such matters Christian magistrates have authority to appoint what they think most convenient, and the same must be observed of those that be pacifici, and not contentiosi. But of sitting and kneeling at the communion more is to be spoken hereafter in the second part. T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 3 Although it be not of necessity that we should receive the communion sitting, yet there is the same cause of abolishing kneeling, that there is of removing the wafer cake, and if there be danger of superstition in one (as M. Doctor confesseth) why is there not danger in the other? and if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one, & that by superstition, how cometh it to pass that M. Doctor in the. 180. pag. says the neither gospeler, nor Papists, obstinate nor simple, can superstitiosly offend in this kneeling, when as the kneeling carrieth a greater show of worship, & imprinteth in the minds of the ignorant a stronger opinion, and a deeper print of adoration, than the sight of a round cake. And if kneeling be so void of all fault, as M. Doctor would make us believe, how came it to pass, that in King Edward's days, there was a protestation added in the book of prayer, to clear that gesture from adoration. Io. Whitgifte. If this be a sufficient argument, to altar & change so decent & comely an order and gesture in praising God, then what order can stand in the church, seeing there is nothing that may not be abused? My words in the. 180. pag. be true, and as yet unanswered. I will set them down in their place, that the Reader may perceive how little you are able to say against them. The protestation made in king Edward's days touching this gesture, was to satissye (if it might be) such quarrelers as you are, and to take away all occasion of cavilling, not for any great sear of adoration. Chap. 1. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. ult. Another reason why kneeling should be taken away, is for that sitting agreeth better with the action of the supper, whereunto M. Doctor taketh exception, both in this place, and where he speaketh again of it, that forsomuch as this sacrament is a sacrament of thanksgiving, and thanksgiving a prayer, therefore kneeling to be most fit, as that which we use ordinarily when we pray. Io. Whitgifte. If this be a good reason, then let the sacrament be ministered at night, for that doth most of all agree with the supper, let there be also other meat, and let it be made a supper in all points. But are you come now to the gross imagination of the manner and form of an earthly and terrestrial supper? Christ doth will us in the celebration Math. 26. of this sacrament to express his death and passion until he come, and not the manner of his sitting at the table. But to such unapt reasons doth the absurdity of your cause drive you, and therefore you are to be pitied rather than confuted. Chap. 1. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 1 But he should have remembered that that thanksgiving may well come after we have received the sacrament, and that whilst we receive the bread and wine of the sacrament, we are not than most fit to speak, they being in our mouths, and during the time we receive them, our mind is occupied in considering the inestimable benefit which the Lord hath bestowed upon us, and to meditate of the fruit which we receive thereby, by the Analogy and comparison, between the bodily nourishment and the spiritual, that by these considerations our minds may be more inflamed, and set on fire, and our mouths may be filled, with the praise of God, after we have received. Io. Whitgifte. And you should have learned that the whole action of this supper is a thanksgyving, and therefore it is called Eucharistia, so that kneeling is a convenient gesture for it, during the whole time of the celebration: Moreover who can be void of thanks, when he is in that consideration you speak of can any Christian heart think of the unspeakable benefits of the death and passion of Christ, exhibited unto him in this sacrament, and not together be moved in heart and mind to give thanks? for thankfulness is as well in heart and thought, as it is in word: and a man may give most hearty thanks unto God, who understandeth his cogitations, though he speak not one word, Ah dally not, dally not in God's mysteries, seek not for vain reason against most meet and convenient orders. Chap. 1. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 1 And further if this be a good reason, that therefore it is meet we should kneel at the supper for as much as we give thanks, than it followeth that when soever we have supped or dined, it is meet that we should kneel, when as yet we do say grace sitting. And by this he accuseth our saviour Christ, and his Apostles, as those which did not use that which was most fit, for in his judgement he saith kneeling is the fittest site, or position of the body which can be, and if our saviour Christ had been of that judgement, undoubtedly he would have also kneeled, and caused his Apostles so to do. Io. Whitgifte. I do not speak of every private man's gesture in every private place. I know that a man may also pray sitting, lying, standing, walking and riding. I speak of the public gesture most meet to be used in praying and thanksgiving in the public congregation: and therefore I say again that in the public Church, though kneeling be not the only, yet it is the fittest gesture for praying: neither can you more object the sitting of Christ against it, than you may his supping at night, against our receiving in the morning. Chap. 1. the. 15. Division. Admonition. The fourth reason. In this book we are enjoined to receive the communion kneeling, which beside that it hath in it a ( & 1. The. 5. 22 Exo. 12. 11. ) show of Papistry, doth not so well express the mystery of this holy supper. For as in the old testament eating the Paschal lamb standing, signified a readiness to pass, even so in the receiving of it now sitting ( a Mat. 26. 20 Mar. 14. 18 Luc. 22. 4. john. 13. 28 ) according to the example of christ, we signify rest, that is, a full finishing through Christ ( b Gala. 4. 10. Ga. 5. 3. 4. 5 Hebr. in many places. of all the ceremonial law, & a perfect work of redemption wrought, that giveth rest for ever. And so we avoid also the danger of idolatry, which was in times passed to common, and yet is in the hearts of many, who have not as yet forgotten their breaden God, so slenderly have they been instructed. Against which we may set the commandment, Thou ( c Exo. 20. 5. ) shalt not bow down to it, nor worship it. Answer Pag. 180. Sect. ult. etc. You say, sitting is the most meetest gesture, because it signifieth rest, that is a full finishing through Christ of all the ceremonial law. etc. What? are you now come to The Admonitors fly to allegories. allegories and to significations? Surely this is a very papistical reason: nay then we can give you a great deal better significations of the surplice, of crossing, of the ring in marriage, and many other ceremonies, than this is of sitting. I pray you in the whole scripture where doth sitting signify a full finishing of the ceremonial law, and a perfect work of redemption that giveth rest for ever? If allegories please you so well, let us have either standing which signifieth a readiness to pass (used also in the eating of the passouer) or kneeling, which is the proper gesture for prayer, and thanksgiving, and signifieth the submission and humbleness of the mind. But you say, Christ sat at his supper, therefore we must sit at the receiving of the supper. You may as well say, Christ did celebrated his supper at night, after supper, to twelve, only men and no women, in a parlour, within a private house, the thursday at night before Easter, therefore we aught to receive the communion at night, after supper, being twelve in number, and only men, in a parlour, within a private house, the thursday at night before Easter. But who seethe not the Non sequitur of this argument? T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 1 In the. 181. page unto the Admonition saying that sitting is most fit, because it betokeneth rest, and accomplishment of the ceremonies in our saviour Christ, M. Doctor saith it is a Papistical lreason, and triumpheth over the Authors of the Admonition, because they allegory, when as notwithstanding the surples before, crossing, & rings, etc. afterwards are defended by nothing but with vain allegories, which have nothing so good grounds as this hath. But let it be that this is not sound a reason (as indeed for my part I will not defend it, and the authors themselves have corrected it) yet M. Doctor might have dealt easilier withal than to call it a papistic ll reason, In liturgia eccle. pere. which is far from popery, and the reason of two notable learned and zealous men johannes Alasco, and of M. Hooper in his commentary upon the Prophet jonas. Io. Whitgifte. I call it Papistical, because the Papists ground the most points of their doctrine upon allegories, as the authors of the Admonition do their sitting. I neither defend surplis nor any thing else by allegories, but I show that I might do it, much better than they do sitting at the Communion. Chap. 1. the. 16. Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 180 Sect. 3 You say kneeling is a show of evil, and for proof thereof you allege. 1. Thessa. 5. Abstain from all appearance of evil. How followeth this, The Apostle willeth us to abstain, from all appearance of evil: therefore kneeling at the communion is a show of evil? But your meaning is, that because the Papists kneeled at the sacring of the Mass (as they called it) therefore we may not kneel at the receiving of the communion: you may as well say, they prayed to images and saints kneeling, therefore we may not pray kneeling. The places written in your margin to prove, that Christ did sit at Pag. 181. sect. 1. &. 2. supper be needless, & were used for the same purpose before, where I have also spoken my opinion of kneeling. If you cite the Galat. 4. and. 5. and the Epistle to the Hebrues in many places, to prove that sitting signifieth rest, that is, a full finishing of the ceremonial law: you do but delude the Readers, and abuse the Scriptures, for there is no such matter to be found in them. If you allege them to prove that Christ is the full finishing of the the Ceremonial law, you take upon you to prove that which no man doubteth of, and is very far from your purpose. You note also the. 20. of Exodus: Thou shalt not bow down to Pag. 182. sect. 1 them, nor worship them, to prove that we may not kneel at the communion: but how fitly, every child may judge. For what sequel is there in this argument? God in the second commandment forbiddeth worshipping of images, therefore we may not receive the communion kneeling. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 1 For the rest which he hath here, or in the. 180. and. 181. page, it is either answered before (as that the danger of adoration may be taken away) or hath no matter worthy the answering. I only admonish the Reader, that sitting at the communion is not held to be necessary, but only I think that kneeling is very dangerous, for the causes before alleged. Io. Whitgifte. An easy kind of answering, & a very slender defence for the crooked handling of the scriptures, by the authors of the Admonition. But it is wittily done, so to pass over that which you can not maintain. Surely the authors of the Admonition are very little beholding to you, for in most places you leave them to answer for themselves. If sitting at the communion be not held to be necessary, why do you then make a schism Contention about external rites become not the church of God. 1. Cor. 11. in the church for it? do not you know that M. Calvin, M. Bullinger, and others, writing against the Anabaptists, do especially condemn them for making a tumult in the Church about external and indifferent things? S. Paul sayeth, If any lust to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God, and he means in external rites. But the question is whether the church must give place to you, or you to the church, in that thing that by your own confession may be used. Chap. 1. the. 17. Division. Admonition. The seventh. Then it was delivered generally, and indefinitely. Take you ( c Mat. 6. 26 Mar. 14. 22 1. Co. 11. 4 ) and eat you: we particularly and singularly, take thou, and eat thou. Of the words take thou, eat thou. etc. The plural number includeth the singular. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 100 Sect. 3. 4. Here is a high matter in a low house, he that sayeth, Take you and eat you, doth he not also say in effect, take thou and eat thou? Doth not the Plural number include the singular? Christ, Matth. 6. saith: Ad hunc igitur modum orate vos, Pray you on this manner: may we not therefore say, pray thou on this manner if we speak to one singular person? so speaking to all his Apostles he saith: Ite in universum mundum, Go into all the world. We use the plural number when we speak to many jointly, we use the singular number when we speak to one severally. And for as much as every one that receiveth this sacrament, Every one must apply the sacrament to himself. hath to apply unto himself the benefits of Christ's death & passion, therefore it is convenient to be said to every one: Take thou, eat thou. But this objection is so ridiculous, that it is more worthy to be hissed at, than to be confuted. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 2. Unto the three next sections contained in the. 100 &. 101. page. I have spoken already, when as I showed the general faults of the service book, only that is to be noted that M. Doctor still privily pyncheth or ever he be ware, at our saviour Christ's action in the first of these sections, when as he commends rather this form of speaking, take thou, than that which our saviour Christ used in saying, take you. And if it be a good argument to prove, that therefore we must rather say, take thou, than take you, because the sacrament is an application of the benefits of Christ, then for as much as preaching is the applying of the benefits of Christ, it behoveth that the Preacher should direct his admonitions particularly one after an other, unto all those which hear his sermon, which is a thing absurd: and therefore besides that it is good to leave the popish form in those things, which we may so conveniently do, it is best to come as near the manner of celebration of the supper which our saviour Christ used, as may be. Io. Whitgifte. I see no difference betwixt them, but only in number, for the which I have given some reason before, whereunto you have made no answer. The similitude of preaching that you here use to improve my latter reason, is very unapt, for there is great difference betwixt the means of exhibiting the benefits of Christ by his Sacraments, and by preaching of his word. And yet there is none doubteth, Particular exhortations move more than general. but that a man is more moved by that which is spoken to him particularly, than he is with that which is spoken generally as well to other, as to himself. And therefore we may commonly note that godly and zealous Preachers, even in their general exhortations, use oftentimes the singular number, and second person, as though they spoke to every particular man severally. Therefore, be the commandments given in that number & person, as Thou shalt have no other Gods but me etc. And Christ doth use the same manner of speech oftentimes in his sermon. Matth. 5. 6. &. 7. If thou bring thy gift to the altar. etc. Agreed with thy adversary quickly. etc. It is usual in all exhortations, and it is a manner of speaking that giveth every man occasion to apply that unto himself, which is spoken. Neither do I herein pinc e at our saviour Christ's action, as you surmise, for he spoke generally to them all, and therefore used that form of words, which was most convenient for that purpose. Chap. 1. the. 18. Division. Admonition. The eight. They used no other words but such as Christ left: we borrow from Papists, the body of our Lord jesus Christ which was given for the. etc. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. 3. From whence soever these words were borrowed, they were well Of the words The body of our Lord jesus Christ. etc. borrowed, for it is a godly prayer, and an apt application of that sacrament, and putteth the Communicants in mind of the effect of Christ's passion exhibited unto them by that sacrament, and sealed with the same, if it be worthily received. It maketh no matter from whom we receive any thing, so it be godly, profitable, and consonant to the scriptures. But I pray you tell us what Pope invented these words, The body of our Lord jesus Christ. & c? Admonition. The ninth. They had no Gloria in excelsis in the ministery of the sacrament then, for it was put ( f Telesphorus in anno 130. to afterward. We have now. Answer. Pag. 101. Sect. 5. &. Pag. 102. Sect. 1 It is the common consent of ecclesiastical histories, that the Apostles Of Gloria in excelsis. did celebrated the Lords supper with the Lords prayer, and yet we do not read that Christ did so. You also teach that the The Apostles celebrated the Lord's supper with the lord's prayer. supper aught not to be ministered without a sermon, and in the ministration thereof you use divers prayers, and other orders which Christ used not: Can you espy a mote (if it be a mote, as it is not) in an other man's eye, and can you not perceive a beam to be in your own? There is nothing contained in Gloria in excelsis, but the same is taken out of the scriptures, and to be used of all true Christians. Telesphorus, whom you note in the margin to have added to the Telesphorus a good Bishop. supper of the Lord Gloria in excelsis, in the year of the Lord. 130. was a good Bishop, and the Church of Rome was as yet pure in doctrine, and unspotted with heresy. Io. Whitgifte. No answer to one whit of all this. Chap. 1. the. 19 Division. Admonition. The tenth. They took it with conscience, we with custom. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 102. Sect. 3. 4. This is but your presumptuous and arrogant judgement, who dare take upon you to give this general sentence, so generally upon this whole Church of England, for you make no exception, but set us ad oppositum to them. If you say some take it without conscience, I think you say truly, and so did some of them, as judas. But if you say all or the most part, you go beyond your commission, and make yourselves judges of other men's consciences, contrary to the rule of Christ. Mat. 7. Luke. 6. and of Paul. Rom. 2. and. 14. 1. Cor. 4. and of James. 4. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 3 When as many receive they know not what, some other without any examination, either of themselves, or by others, how they come, with what faith in Christ, with what love towards their brethren, I see not against what rule of our saviour Christ it is, or what rash judgement to say, that they come rather of custom than of conscience, when neither they speak generally of all, nor singularly of any one particular person. Io. Whitgifte. Generally to charge the whole Church with that, which is but the fault of some, and thus boldly to enter into many men's consciences, must needs be both lack of great discretion, and also against those rules of Scripture that I have quoted in my Answer to the Admonition. ¶ Of shutting men from the Communion, and compelling to communicate. Chap. 2. the first Division. Admonition. The eleventh. They shut men by reason of their ( g 1. Co. 5. 11. ) sins, from the Lords supper: we thrust them in their sin to the Lords supper. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 102. Sect. 6. 7. The place that you allege out of the fift chapter of the first to the Corinthians, which is this (But now I have written unto you that you company not together: if any that is called a brother be a fornicator. etc.) doth not particularly touch the secluding of men by reason of their sins from the Communion, but generally prohibiteth true Christians to have any familiarity or friendship with any such notorious offender. If you were not with malice blinded, you might easily understand, that by the order and rules of this Church of England, all notorious and known offenders, even such as S. Paul here The Admonito gratify the Papists. speaketh of, are secluded from the lords supper. But peradventure your meaning is, that no man should be compelled to the Communion at any time, wherein you greatly gratify the Papists, and show yourself a good patron of there's. When you show any reason why men may not be compelled to come to the Communion: than you shall be answered: In the mean time you are worthy of your fee. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. ult. If the place of the. 5. to the Corinth. do forbidden that we should have any familiarity with notorious offenders, it doth much more forbidden that they should be received to the Communion. Io. Whitgifte. I will Answer you as M. Caluine answered the Anabaptists objecting the same Calu adversus Anabapt. place of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 5. in effect to the same end and purpose, that the Authors of the Admonition do, & using the like collection that you do in this place. But whereas (saith he) Paul doth forbidden to eat, with those that live dissolutely, that pertaineth to private conversation, not to the public Communion, but some will say: if it be not lawful for a Christian man to keep company with him that is wicked for corporal meat, much less may he receive with them the Lords bread. I answer that it is in our power, whether we will be familiarly conversant with the wicked, or not, and therefore every one aught to fly from them: But it is not so in our power to receive the Communion, or not to receive it, therefore the reason is not all one, we must therefore note, that if the Church do tolerate and suffer an unworthy man, he shall do well, that (knowing him to be such a one) doth abstain from his company as much as he can: so that his doing make no schism or separation in the Church. This I speak only touching the true understanding of that place of S. Paul to the Corinthians: and not because I would have the Church to suffer any such notorious offenders to receive the Communion. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. ult. And therefore Papists being such, as which are notoriously known to hold heretical opinions, aught not to be admitted, much less compelled to the supper. For seeing that our saviour Christ, did institute his supper amongst his Disciples, and those only which were, as S. Paul speaketh within, it is evident that the Papists being without, and foreigners and strangers from the Church of God, aught no to be received if they would offer themselves, and that minister that shall give the supper of the Lord to him which is known to be a Papist, and which hath never made any clear renouncing of popery, with which he hath been defiled, doth profane the table of the Lord, and doth give the meat that is prepared for the children, to dogs, and he bringeth into the pasture, which is provided for the sheep, swine and unclean beasts, contrary to the faith and trust that aught to be in a steward of the lords house, as he is. For albeit that I doubt not, but many of those which are now papists, pertain to the election of God, which God also in his good time, will call to the knowledge of his truth: yet notwithstanding they aught to be unto the minister, and unto the Church, touching the ministering of the sacraments, as strangers, and as unclean beasts. And as for the Papists howsoever they receive it, whether as their popish breaden God, as some do, or as common and ordinary bread, as other some do, or as a thing they know not what, as some other: they do nothing else but eat & drink their own condemnation, the weight whereof they shall one day assuredly feel, unless they do repent them of such horrible profaning of the Lords most holy mysteries. Io. Whitgifte. When our saviour Christ did institute his supper, judas was present, and partaker thereof with the rest, as it is evident in the Evangelists: and yet was not judas of the Church, but without the Church, and a reprobate. You allege S. Paul, but there is neither Epistle, nor chapter, nor any other place quoted, which argues a guilty conscience, and willing to use untrue allegations, or at the lest unapt. I do not allow that Papists being notoriously known, and continuing in their popery, should be admitted to receive the Communion, neither are they admitted thereunto in this Church. And being such as you speak of, I think they would not come, although they were compelled. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 133. Lin. 16. And if this be to gratify the Papists, to show that they aught not to be compelled to receive the supper of the Lord, as long as they continued in their Popery, I am well content to show them this pleasure, so that both they and you forget not what I have before said, (*) You said before, that if they be not meet to receive the communion munion, neither are they meet to hear the word Page 118. Sect. 1 that the Magistrate aught to compel them to hear the word of God, and if they profit not, nor with sufficient teaching correct not themselves, that then they should be punished. And if you do ask why they should be more compelled unto the sermons, than unto the supper of the Lord, or why they are not as well to be admitted unto the one as unto the other: you see the like done in the sacrament of baptism, which may not be ministered unto all to whom the word may be preached. The reason also is at hand, for the preaching of the word of God to the Papists, is an offer of the grace of God, which may be made to those which are strangers from God, but the ministering of the holy sacraments unto them is a declaration and seal of God's favour and reconciliation with them, and a plain preaching, partly that they be washed already from their sins, partly that they are of the household of God, and such as the Lord will feed to eternal life, which is not lawful to be done to those, which are not of the household of faith. And therefore I conclude, that the compelling of Papists unto the Communion, and the dismissing and letting of them go, when as they be to be punished, for their stubborness in Popery (with this condition if they will receive the Communion) is very unlawful, when as although they would receive it, yet they aught to be kept back, until such time as by their religious and gospellike behaviour, they have purged themselves of that suspicion of Popery, which their former life and conversation hath caused to be conceived. Io. Whitgifte. This is directly contrary to that which you before affirmed, page. 118. For there Pag. 118. sect. 1 you say, that those which are not meet to receive the holy sacrament of the Supper, are not meet to hear the word of God: if they be meet for the one, they be meet for the other, and that with what lawfulness they may offer themselves to the prayers, and to the hearing of the word of God, they may also offer themselves to the lords supper, and to whom so ever of them the Lord will communicate himself by preaching the word, unto the same he will not refuse to communicate himself by receiving of the Sacraments. These be your words there, and now you sing another song, going about to prove, that the Magistrate may and ought to compel those to the hearing of the word, who are not meet to be received to the lords supper. Surely this is great inconstancy, but I agreed with you in this place, and I Men persisting in wickeanesse and errors are not to be compelled. have before declared the untruth of your assertion in the other place. This only I must let you understand, that when I speak of compelling either Papists or other to the communion, I do not mean that they persisting in their wickedness and errors, should be constrained to come to the lords supper, but that all ordinary means of persuasion being used, if they still continued in their stubborness, and refuse to communicate with us, such discipline should be used towards them, as is convenient for their wilfulness and contempt of the truth. Yourself before, pag. 117. said, that such as withdraw themselves from the Communion, The Reply agreeth not with the monition. should both by ecclesiastical discipline, and civil punishment be brought to communicate with their brethren, the same do I affirm also. But the Authors of the Admonition say, that this is to drive men in their sins to the lords supper, and therefore page. 1 9, they would neither have Papists nor other constrained to communicate in the mysteries of The 〈◊〉 would have no e compe led to communicate. salvation: meaning (as I think) that they would have no correction nor discipline (for that is to compel) used against such as refuse to communicate. I think in deed the especial quarrel is their own, because they have separated themselves from the Church, and would not be constrained to communicate with us, but they make their doctrine general, thereby to cloak their intent. Wherefore whether they do it to gratify the Papists, or not, it may be doubted, but certain it is that the Papists could not have had better Proctors. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saith we be worthy of (for showing ourselves (as he faith) so good patrons of the Pap stes) he hath given us well to understand, what it should be if he were the paymaster: but as we serve the Lord in this work, so we look for reward at his hand, not fearing but that the Lord will in the end give such blessing unto our labours, as we shall not need greatly to ear at the hands of those which God hath placed in authority, the reward which you do so often call for. Io. Whitgifte. Surely that ée you should look for at my hands, that it behoveth a Christian man so give unto such as continued in disturbing the Church: and yet peradventure should it not be by the twenty part so sharp, as the fee that you would bestow upon me, if it were in your power. Howbeit, I commit myself to him, by whom hitherto I have been protected (notwithstanding all the devices, and practices of slanderous tongues, and hateful countenances) and I nothing doubt but that in the end God will turn all to his glory, and profit of the Church. ¶ Of plain and simple ministering and receiving of the Communion. Chap. 3. Admonition. The twelfth. They ministered the Sacraments plainly, we pompeously, with singing, piping, surplice, and cope wearing. The thirteenth. They simply as they ( h . Co. 11, 23 ) received it from the Lord: We, sinfully mixed with man's inventions and devices. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. & Pag. 104. Sect. 1 This is a very slender reason to prove that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministered, because there is singing, piping, surplice and Cope: when you show your reasons against that pomp, which is now used in the celebration of that Sacrament, you shall hear what I have to say in defence of the same. I think that there is nothing used in the administration thereof, that doth in any respect contaminate it, or make it impure. As for piping, it is not prescribed to be used at the Communion by any rule, that I know. Singing I am sure you do not disallow, being used Singing used in all reform Churches. in all reform Churches, and an art allowed in Scriptures, and used in praising of God by David. Of Surplice and Cope I have spoken before, & will speak more hereafter as occasionis ministered. There is no such inventions or devices of man mixed with the Supper of the Lord as can make it sinful, being all pertaining to edifying, and to good & decent order, and nothing there appointed to be done contrary or not agreeable to the Scriptures. Caluine Caluine. himself saith in his Institutions, Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those things which be parts of decency, commended unto us by the Apostle, though Decent orders be God's traditions. they be prescribed by man, yet are they Gods traditions, and not man's, as kneeling at solemn prayer, and such like. The Supper itself in all points of any moment is ministered now in this Church of England, even as Christ delivered it, as the Apostles used, and as the Primitive Church continued the same. These be all the reasons you use to prove that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministered, whereof some be impious, some ridiculous, and all of them unworthy any confutation. T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that which is contained in the two next sections in the. 103. and a piece of the. 104. pages, I have answered before, partly particularly, & partly when I noted the general faults of the Service book, especially seeing that M. Doctor will not defend the piping and Organs, nor no other singing than is used in the reformed Churches, which is, in the singing of two Psalms, one in the beginning, and an other in the ending, in a plain tune, easy both to be song of those which have no art in singing, and understanded of those, which because they can not read, can not sing with the rest of the Church. For that which is in the. 105. page, and concerneth the surplice, I have answered before. Io. Whitgifte. To the most of it you have not answered any where, and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministered. have left untouched, that is, whether these things be of that weight, or not, that in any respect they can contaminate the sacraments, or make them impure, as they b now used. Neither have you proved, or can prove that the sacraments are not ministered in this Church of England in all points of any moment, even as Christ delivered them, the Apostles used them, & the primitive Oecolamp. in Epist. apud Gastium. li. 2. de erro. Catabaptist. Church continued them. Touching singing, piping (as you call it) surplice & cope wearing. I answer with Oecolampadius, These things be free unto Christians, which holy or godly Bishops may either add, if it seem unto them convenient, and profitable for the people, or take away if there be any abuse, as the time requireth: even as they may also do in other ceremonies. We have made no contention for external things: those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the word of God. I have heard no reasons as yet to improve the manner of singing used in this The original cause of the pride of the romish church. Church of England, neither do I say that I allow no other singing than is used in other reform Churches. For I would not have any Church to arrogate that perfection unto itself, that it should think all other Churches to be bound unto it: it was the original cause of the pride of the Church of Rome. I have only said that other reform Churches allow singing, which is true. ¶ Of matters touching Baptism. Tract. 16. Of Interrogatories ministered to infants. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. And as for baptism, it was enough with them, if they ( i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. ) had water, and the party to be baptized, faith, and the Minister to preach the word and minister the Sacraments. Now, we must have surplice devised by Pope Adrian, Interrogatories ministered to the Intant, Godfathers and Godmothers, brought in by Higinus, holy fontes invented by Pope Pius, crossing and such like pieces of Popery, which the Church of God in the Apostles time never known (and therefore not to be used) nay (which we are sure of) were and are man's devices brought in long after the purity of the primitive Church. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 105. Sect. ult. etc. Interrogatories to be ministered to the infant, be not strange, Interrogatories ministered to infants. Dionysius Areopag. neither lately invented, but of great antiquity. For Dionysius Areopagita in his book entitled De caelest. Hierar. and seventh chapter, speaking of the baptizing of infants, and of their sureties or godfathers, and answering to certain profane deriders (as he termeth them) which said that one was baptized for an other, because the Godfather did promise and answer for the child, speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather. Neque enim hoc ille ai , Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio, aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor, sed ita puer renunciat & profitetur, id est, spondeo puerum inducturum, cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit, sedulis adhortationibus meis, ut abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino, profiteaturque, & peragat divina quae pollicetur. Neither doth he say this, I renounce for the child, or profess the Sacraments of faith, but in this sort the child doth renounce or profess, that is to say, I promise' so to instruct the child, when he cometh to the years of discretion, with daily exhortations, that he shall renounce all contrary things, and profess and perform those heavenly things, which he doth promise. T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. ult. & Pag. 134. Sect. 1 There followeth the interrogatories or demands ministered unto the infants in baptism, for the proof whereof is brought, in the first place Dionysius Areopagita, a worthy cover for such a cup. For to let pass that M. Doctor allegeth the celestial Hierarchy in stead that he should have cited the ecclesiastical Hierarchy, this testimony being found in the one and in the other, dare M, Doctor be so bold as to delude the world in so great light, with such babies as this? doth he think that the Author of these books of Hierarchies, being so full of subtle speculations, vain and idle fantasies, wicked blasphemies, making one order of Popes, an other of Prelates, the third of Sacrify s, and then of Monks, (some of which orders came not many hundred years after that time wherein Device the Areopagite lived) which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions, (that no other Author neither Greek nor Latin stories, nor other divers hundredth years after doth make mention of besides him) I say doth he think to abuse men, and to give them such dross in stead of Silver, such chaff in stead of corn, as to make us believe, that he that written these books of Hierarchy, was S. Paul's scholar? for the better blazing of this Denis arms, I will sendè the reader unto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors, upon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles, where he also showeth together with his own judgement, the judgement of Laurentius Ualla. I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credit in such matters (in those matters especially which might like or mislike those times wherein he written) sayeth of S. Paul's communicating with Denis, and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concerning the heavenly and ecclesiastical hierarchy. But because I think M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Devis, I will follow it no further. By this it may appear that M. Doctors Dionysius, being a counterfeit and start up, these Interrogatories and demands ministered unto infants have not so many grey hears, as he would make us believe, although in deed the question lieth not in the antiquity. As for reasons he hath none, but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very evil, he maketh it all one to say (I renounce) and to say (I will teach another to renounce.) Io. Whitgifte. I know there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authority, and Author of these books. And yet it cannot be denied, but that they be very ancient, neither is it any shame for me to allege his authority, seeing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to allege the same book against Harding, to prove reading of Defense of the Apolog. part. 5. the Scriptures in the Church, with as great credit as I do. Howbeit, I will not take upon me the defence of them, neither do I doubt, but that something may be thrust in unto them, but of all other things this is the lest to be suspected, that I have in this place alleged. Neither am I any more ashamed of him, than you are of so often alleging the Canons of the Apostles, Hyginus, etc. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the books of Dionysius. His reason is to be considered, agreeing fully with the true meaning of this Church of England, but you wipe it away with a flout, as your manner is, when you are driven to a pinch. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 106. Sect. 1 & Pag. 107. Sect. 1 Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium, answering Augustine. this Question, why, seeing we dare promise' nothing of the infant's behaviour and manners when he cometh to man's state, yet when An objection made by Augustine. The Answer to the same. he is brought to baptism, and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptized, whither the infant believe or not, they answer that he doth believe, saith on this sort: Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem, etc. Except Sacraments had a certain similitude, and likeness of those things whereof they be Sacraments, they were no Sacraments at all, and by reason of this same similitude oftentimes they are called by the names of the things themselves, therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking, the Sacrament of the body of Christ is the body of Christ, the Sacrament of the blood of Christ is the blood of Christ, so the Sacrament of the faith is faith, neither is it anything else to believe, than to have faith: and therefore when answer is made, that the infant doth believe, not having as yet faith in deed, it is answered that he doth believe for the Sacrament of faith, and that he doth convert himself unto God for the Sacrament of conversion, because the answer itself doth pertain to the celebration of the Sacrament. And a little after he sayeth: Itaque paruulum, etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit, iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum, fidelem facit. Nam sicut credere respondetur, ita etiam fidelis vocatur, non rem ipsa ment annuendo, sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo. Therefore although that faith which consists in the will of the believers, doth not make the ehylde faithful, yet doth the Sacrament of that faith make him faithful: for even as it is answered that he doth believe, so is he also called faithful, not by signifying the thing itself in his mind, but by receiving the Sacrament of the thing. By these two authorities it is manifest that Interrogatories were ministered to infants, at the time of their Baptism, and that they had sureties, which we call godfathers, that answered for them and in their name. T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 1 As for S. Augustine's place (although I can (*) . not allow his reason that he maketh, nor the proportion that is between the sacrament of the body and blood of our Saviour Christ, and his body and blood itself of one side, and between the sacrament of Baptism and faith of the other side: saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christ, after a sort is the body: so the baptism of the sacrament of faith, is after a sort faith, (a) . whereas he should have said, that as the supper being the sacrament of the body of Christ, is after a sorre the body of Christ, so baptism being a sacrament of the blood of Christ, is after a sort the blood of Christ. For faith is not the subject of Baptism, as the body and blood of Christ is the matter of the supper.) Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one word to approve this abuse of answering in the child's name, and in his person, but goeth about to establish, an other abuse, which was, that it was lawful for those that presented the child, to say, that it believed, so that it is like, that the minister did ask those which presented the infant, whither they thought that it was faithful, and did believe, and those which presented it, said it was so: whereupon this question rose, whither it was lawful to say, that the child believed. Io. Whitgifte. I never heard that any learned man as yet misliked this place of Augustine, but I know they have used it as a most manifest testimony, against Transubstantiation, and the Real presence, and as a true declaration wherefore the sacramental bread and wine be called the body and blood of Christ, being but the sacraments of the body and blood of Christ. And now you with unwashed hands not understanding the place, presume to give a blind and unlearned censure, upon so worthy and learned a Father, even there where he speaketh most sound and learnedly: But how should your arrogancy else appear? The supper is a sacrament both of the body and blood of Christ, the bread of the body and the . Rom. 4. wine of the blood, as S. Augustine there sayeth: and Baptism is truly called by him the Sacrament of faith, because it is Signaculum justitiae fidei, as Circumcision the figure of Baptism was, according to the word of the Apostle ad Rom. 4. and therefore in reproving S. Augustine, for calling it the Sacrament of faith, you seem to be ignorant of this place of the Apostle. To this saying of Augustine, doth that of Tertullian in his book De Poenitentia very well agree, where he speaking of Baptism Tertull. sayeth, Lavacrum illud obsignatio est Fidci, That washing is the sealing of faith. And Chrysostom opere imp. Homil. 5. in Matth. sayeth also that Baptism is the seal of Chrysost. faith, neither did ever any man before you mislike this kind and phrase of speech, that baptism is the sacrament of faith. S. Augustine's words be evident, that there were questions in Baptism moved in the name of the infant, which could not be, unless there were also answering to the same. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. Admonition. Thirdly, they profane holy Baptism, in toying foolishely, for that they ask questions of an infant, which can not answer, and speak unto them, as was wont to be spoken unto men, and unto such as being converted, answered for themselves, and were baptized. Which is but a mockery ( l Gal, 6. 7. ) of God, and therefore against the holy Scriptures. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 192. Sect. 1. 2. To the third superstitious toy (as you call it) that is, the questions demanded of the Infant, at the time of Baptism, I have also answered Augustine alloweth questions to the infant. out of S. Augustine, in the first part: where it may also appear, that this manner of questioning was used in the baptizing of Infants long before Augustine's time, for Dionysius Areopagita maketh mention of them in like manner. To prove that this questioning with the infant is a mocking of God, you quote Galat. 6. verse. 7. Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he reap. Paul in this place taketh away excuses, which worldlings use to make for not nourishing their pastors, for no feigned excuse will serve because God is not mocked: But what is this to the questioning with infants? how followeth this? God is not mocked, Ergo, he that questioneth with Infants mocketh God. Truly you mock God when you so dally with his Scriptures, and seek rather the glory of quoting of many places of Scripture, than the true applying of any one. T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 2. In the. 191. and. 192. pages he speaketh of this again, but he both nothing else, but repeat, in both places that which is here, only he sayeth that it is a mocking of God to use the place of the Galatians, (God is not mocked) against this abuse, and his reason is, because S. Paul speaketh there against those, that by feigned excuses seek to defraud the Pastor of his living, as who should say S. Paul did not conclude that particular conclusion, thou shalt not by frivolous excuses defraud the minister, with this general saying (God is not mocked) for his reason is, God is not mocked at all or in any matter, therefore he is not mocked in this, or as who should say, because our Saviour Christ saying that it is not lawful to separate that which God hath joined speaking of divorce, it is not lawful to use this sentence, being a general rule, in other things, when as we know it is as well and properly used against the Papists, which severe the cup from the bread, as against the jews, which put away their wives for every small and trifling cause. Io. Whitgifte. In deed it is a very mocking of God thus to abuse the Scriptures, for the Authors of the Admonition allege this text to prove, that to question with Infants is to mock God, when there is not one word in that place spoken of questioning with infants, and therefore this text is alleged without purpose, except you will say that it is quoted only for the Phrase and manner of speaking. It is true that God is not mocked, but this proveth not that questioning in Baptism is to mock God, and therefore vainly it is applied. Those which sever the cup from the bread, in the lords Supper do separate that which God hath coupled, and therefore that text may well be alleged against them, but such as question in Baptism, in the name of those that are to be baptized do not mock God, and therefore that text is in the Admonition altogether abused. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. ult. And as for this questioning it can be little better termed, than a very triflying and joying, for first of all children have not nor cannot have any faith, having no understanding of the word of God. I will not deny but children have the spirit of God, which worketh in them after a wonderful fashion. But I deny that they can have faith which cometh by hearing, and understanding, which is not in them. Secondarily, if children could have faith, yet they that present the child, can not precisely tell whether that particular child hath faith or not, and therefore can not so absolutely answer that it believeth: Because it is comprehended in the covenant, and is the child of faithful parents, or at lest of one of the Parents, there is warrant unto the presenters to offer it unto Baptism, and to the minister for to baptize it. And further we have to think charitably and to hope, that it is one of the Church. But it can be no more precisely said, that it hath faith, than it may be said precisely elected, (*) An untru . (for in deed it is all one to say, that it is elect, and to say that it believeth) and this I think the Authors of the Admonition do mean, when they say, that they require a promise of the godfathers, which is not in them to perform. Io. Whitgifte. I have told you before out of Dionysius and Augustine, in what sense the answer is made in the name of the infant, and therefore this is no reason: for though the infant have not faith that cometh by hearing and understanding the word of God, yet may the Godfathers promise', that they will endeavour so much as lieth in them, that the infant may be instructed in that faith, that they have professed in his name. Likewise as Augustine saith, It may be said to believe, propter Sacramentum fidei, For the Sacrament of faith. Your second reason is all one with the former reason, and therefore one answer Not all one to say it believeth, and it is elected. Act. 8. doth serve them both: saving that you here add a manifest untruth, for it is not all one to say, that it is elect, and to say it believeth: for the Scripture Actor. 8. saith that Simon Magus believed, yet was he not elected. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 135. Lin. 7. Thirdly, if both those things were true, that is that infants had faith, and that it might be precisely said that it believeth, yet aught not the minister demand this of the child, whom he knoweth cannot answer him, nor those that answer for the child, aught to demand to be baptized, when they neither mean, nor may be, (being already baptized,) but it is meet, that all things should be done gravely, simply and plainly in the Church. And so (if those other two things were lawful) it aught to be done, as seemeth to have been done in S. Augustine's times, when the minister asked those that presented the infant, and not the infant, whither it were faithful, and those which presented answered in their own people, and not in the child's, that it was faithful. Io. Whitgifte. These be mere cavils and unworthy the name of reasons. Those that shall read the book of Common prayer touching that matter, may easily perceive that this reason might well have been blotted out of your book. For the minister speaking to those that answer for the child sayeth thus: Wherefore after this promise made by Christ, these infants must also faithfully for their part, promise' by you that be their sureties, that they will forsake the Devil and all his works, and constantly believe Gods holy word, and obediently keep his commandments: whereby you may understand, what is meant both by those questions, and answers. But what will not malice quarrel with? and what is there so good and profitable, that may not be (by contentious persons) drawn into question? the question is asked in the name of the child, the Godfathers answer in their own people, signifying thereby that they will labour and endeavour so much as in them lieth, to bring that to pass in the child, which they have promised for it, and in the name of it. And why is it not as lawful for such questions to be asked in the name of the child, as it is for the child to make a rehearsal of his faith, and to desire to be baptized in the same, by the mouth of the Parent, or some other in the Parents name, as the Admonition affirmeth fol. 109. in these words? That the parties to be baptized, if they be of the years of discretion, by themselves and in their own people, or if they be infants by their parents, (in whose room if upon necessary occasion they be absent, some one of the congregation knowing the good behaviour and sound faith of the Parents) may both make rehearsal of their faith, and also if their faith be sound, and agreeable to the holy Scriptures, desire to be in the same baptized. Is it not as much for the infant to profess his faith (which you say he hath not) by his Parents and by him also, to desire to be baptized, as it is for the Godfather to answer interrogatories ministered unto him, in the name of the Child? ¶ Of Godfathers and their promise. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. Admonition. Secondly, they require a promise of the Godfathers and Godmothers, (as they term them) which is not in ( k Rom. 7. 15. 18. 21. Rom. 9 16. ) their powers to perform. We say nothing of those that are admitted to be witnesses, what ill choice there is made of them. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 191. Sect. 1. 2. The second thing you mislike is, that we require a promise of the The promise of the Godfathers restrained to their power. Godfathers, and Godmothers, which is not in their powers to perform: to this cavillation I have answered before, and have declared both out of Dionysius Areopagita, and August. why they answer so in the infant's name, and why they make that promise, which I think they perform sufficiently, if they pretermit nothing that lieth in them to the performance thereof: and so sayeth Dionysius, for such promises are not made absolutely, but Quantum in nobis est. So much as lieth in us. To prove that it is not in the Godfathers to perform that which they promise', you quote the saying of S. Paul to the Rom. cap. 7. vers. 15. I allow not that which I do, for what I would that I do not, but what I hate, that I do. And vers. 18. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but I find no means. etc. And vers. 21. I find then by the law, that when I would do good, evil is present with me. In all these places Infirmities be in all men. the Apostle declareth, that infirmities remain even in the faithful by reason of the flesh, and that they can not come to such perfection in this life, as they do desire. But how do these places prove, that Godfathers are not able to perform that which they promise' for the infant? Truly these proofs are to far fetched for my understanding. In the ninth to the Romans, the Apostle saith, That it is not in him that willeth, nor in him that runneth, but in God that showeth mercy. In the which words he showeth, that the cause of our election is not in ourselves, but in the mercy of God. But what is this to the promise of Godfathers made at the baptizing of Infants? If you would have a man to promise' nothing but that which is in his power to perform, then must you simply condemn all promises made by man, for there is nothing in his power to perform, not not moving of his foot, not coming to dinner or supper. etc. Therefore as all other promises be made Conditional promises. with these secret conditions, if God will, so much as lieth in me, to the uttermost of my power, if I live. etc. So is the promise in baptism made, by the Godfathers likewise. Io. Whitgifte. There is nothing answered to this. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. and Pag. 193. Sect. 1 It is also manifest by these authorities, that Godfathers or sureties were required at the baptizing of Infants: which Tertullian also signifieth in his book de Baptismo. But you yourself Of Godfathers. confess Godfathers to be of great antiqnitie in the Church of Christ, for you say that Higinus brought them in, and Higinus was the ninth Bishop of Rome, and lived. Anno. 141, Touching the last, which you Rhetorically say, you will speak nothing of, that is, the evil choice of witnesses; I think in part it is true, but you speak that without the book, and therefore without my compass of defence: For I mean not to take upon me the defence of any abuse within the book (if there be any) much less without the book. T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 1 For Godfathers there is no controversy between the Admonition, and master Doctor's book, which appeareth not only in their corrections, but plainly in the. 188. page, where they declare that they rather condemn the abuse, whilst it is urged more than greater matters, and which are in deed necessary, this being a thing arbitrary, and left to the discretion of the Church, Godfathers allowed by T. C. and whilst there is so evil choice for the most part of Godfathers, which is expressedly mentioned of the Admonition, and whilst it is used almost for nothing else but as a mean for one friend to gratify an other, without having any regard to the solemn promise made before God and the congregation, of seeing the child brought up in the nurture and fear of the Lord. For the thing itself, considering that it is so generally received of all the Churches, they do not mislike of it. Io. Whitgifte. Peradventure they are better advised now than they were when they written the Admonition. But it is good for the Reader to note that you make Godfathers a thing arbitrary, and left to the discretion of the Church: and yet was it invented Godfathers allowed though brought in by Pope Higinus. (as the Authors of the Admonition say) by Pope Higinus. So that some thing belike of the Pope's inventions may remain in the Church, though the same be not expressed in the word of God. Indeed this is the liberty that you challenge, to allow what you list, and disallow at your pleasure: all is perfect that you confirm of whom soever it was borrowed. And why may not I say the same for interrogatories ministered to the Infant? You add this reason in the end (Considering it is so generally received of all Churches) and yet page. 18. you disallow Saint Augustine's The replier unconstant. Pag. 18. Sect. 7 rule tending to the same effect, so that you may say and unsay at your pleasure, and no man say unto you, black is your eye: or Domine cur ita facis? Of Fontes, and crossing in Baptism. Chap. 3. the. 1. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 107. Sect. ult. You may as well find fault with Pulpit and Church, as with Of fontes. The Apostles baptized not in Basins. the fontes, and the reason is all one. In the time of the Apostles they did not baptize in Basins, as you do now, but in Rivers and other common waters, neither was there in the Apostles time any Churches for Christians, or Pulpits to preach in, and therefore you had best to pluck down Churches, and Pulpits, and to baptize in common rivers and waters. T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 2. As for Fontes I have spoken of before, both particularly, and in general. But whereas M. Doctor saith, in the Ipostles times they baptized in no Basins but in rivers, and common waters, I would know whether there was a river or common water in Cornelius, and in the jailers houses, where Paul and Peter baptized. Io. Whitgifte. And I would also gladly learn, how you can prove that they did baptize in Basins there: I do not say that they always baptized in Rivers and common waters, but that they did so and that most commonly, which no man can deny. But I require one syllable in Scripture to prove that they did baptize in Basins, not that I The replier put to the proof of his ceremonies. disallow it if time and place do require, but because I would have you to perform, that in your Ceremonies, which you require in ours, that is, to prove them directly by the word of God. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 108. Sect. 1 Touching crossing in baptism, I will only recite unto you the Of crossing in baptism. ucer. opinion of M. Bucer, which is this. Signam hoc non tam quod est usus in Ecclesijs antiquissimi, quam quòd est admodùm simplex, & presentis admonitionis crucis Christi, adbiberi, nec indecens, nec inutile existimo: si adhibeatur modò purè intellectum, & religiose excipiatur, nulla nec superstitione adiuncta, nec elements servitute, nec lenitate, aut vulgari consuetudine. I think it neither uncomely nor unprofitable to use the sign of the Cross, not only because the use thereof is very ancient, but also because it hath an express signification of the passion of Christ: so that it be purely understood and religiously received without any superstition or servitude of the element, or levity, or common custom. T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 3 To prove crossing in Baptism, M. Bucers' authority is brought. I have said before what injury it is to leave the public works of Bucer, and to fly unto the Apochryphas, wherein also they might drive us to use the like, and to set down likewise his words which we find in his private letters. But it is first of all to be observed of the reader, how and with what name those notes are called, which are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions: they are called by M. Doctors own confession (Censures) which word signifieth and implieth, as much as corrections and controlments of the book of service, and therefore we may take this for a general rule throughout the whole book of Service, that in whatsoever things in controversy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers' authority, to confirm them that those things Bucer misliked of, as for example in private Baptism, and Communions ministered in houses, for interrogatories ministered to Infants, and such like, for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers' judgement, it may be thought that he misliked of them, and no doubt, if either M. Bucers' notes had not either condemned or misliked of diverse things in the Service book, we should have had the notes printed and set forth to the full. This I thought in a word to admonish the reader of. Io. Whitgifte. To your first cavil, I have answered before, where you made the same. To your second of master Bucers' Censures (though the book be not so entitled) the M. Bucers' Censures upon the first book in king Edward's time. answer is short and plain, it was his judgement upon the first Communion book, in the time of king Edward wherein he misliked some things: but alloweth both private Baptism, and the Communion ministered to the sick, as I before declared, and you might have remembered, if your memory had not failed you. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 4. Unto M. Bucers' authority I could here oppose men of as great authority, yea the authority of all the reform Churches, which shall also be done afterward. And if there were nothing to oppose but the word of God, which will have the Sacraments ministered simply, and in that sincerity that they be left unto us, it is enough to make all men to cover their faces, and to be ashamed, if that which thy shall speak be not agreeable to that simplicity. The reasons which M. Bucer bringeth I will answer, which in this matter of crossing are two: first that it is ancient, and so it is in deed: For Tertullian maketh mention of this usage. Li. de resurrect. carnis. And if this be sufficient to prove the goodness of it, than there is no cause, why we should mislike of the other superstitions and corruptions which were likewise used in those times. For the same Li. de corona militis. Tertullian showeth that they used also at baptism to taste of milk, and honey, and not to wash all the week after they had ministered baptism. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words without proof, Crossing in that manner and form, that we use it, very well agreeth with the simplicity of the word of God. If it do not so, show any word against it. Your answer to that reason is very base, for it is not only ancient, but it hath continued, and been generally received: which you allowed before as a sufficient reason for Godfathers. As for milk and honey, the use of them was neither continued long, nor yet general: and therefore the reason of them, and of the other is not like. Chap. 3. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 135 Sect. ult. But here I will note the cause, whereupon I suppose, this use of crossing came up in the Primitive Church, whereby shall appear, how there is no cause now why it it should be retained, if there were any why it should be used in the Primitive Church. It is known to all that have read the Ecclesiastical stories, that the Heathen did object to the Christians in times passed in reproach, that the God which they believed of was hanged upon a Crosse. And they thought good to testify that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God, by the often using of the sign of the Cross, which carefulness and good mind to keep amongst them an open profession of Christ crucified, although it be to be commended: yet is not this means so: for they might otherwise have kept it, and with less danger, than by this use of crossing, and if they thought the use of the Cross to be the best means, yet they should not have been so bold, as to have brought it into the holy Sacrament of Baptism, and so mingle the ceremonies and inventions of men, with the Sacraments and institution of God. And as it was brought in upon no good ground, so the Lord left a mark of his curse of it, and whereby it might be perceived to come out of the forge of man's brain, in that it began forthwith, while it was yet in the swaddling clouts to be superstitiously abused. For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same book de Corona militis, that the Christians had such a superstition in it, that they would do nothing, nor take nothing in hand, unless they had crossed them, when they went out, when they came in, when they sat or lay down, and when they rose, and as Superstition is always strengthened, and spreadeth itself with the time, so it came from crossing of men unto crossing of every thing that they used. Whereupon Chrysostom commends the crossing of the Cup before a man drink, Upon the 1. Tim. 4. cap. and of the meat before it was eaten. But if it were granted that upon this consideration which I have before mentioned, the ancient Christians did well, yet it followeth not, that we should so do: for we live not amongst those Nations which do cast us in the teeth or reproach us with the Cross of Christ. If we lived amongst the Turks it were an other matter, and then there might peradventure some question be, whether we should do as they did, and having the same sore, use the same plaster. But now we live among the Papists, that do not contemn the cross of Christ, but which esteem more of the wooden cross, than of the true cross of Christ, (which is his sufferings,) we aught now to do clean contrariwise to the old Chrystians, and abolish all use of these crosses, for contrary diseases, must have contrary remedies: if therefore the old Christians to deliver the cross of Christ from contempt, did often use the cross, the Christians now to take away the superstitious estimation of it, aught to take away the use of it. Io. Whitgifte. I think your supposition in part to be true: I am also persuaded that the original cause of using this sign was lawful and good, and yet the thing if self afterwards abused, and the cause of using is clean altered, and wholly converted to superstition: but the abuse being taken away, I see no cause why it may not be used in Baptism, in that manner and form, as it is in this Church of England, that is, In token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified, and manfully to fight under his banner, against sin, the world, and the devil, and to continued Christ's faithful Soldier and servant unto his lives end. And though there be no Turks among us or Jews, yet is it lawful to use such Christian ceremonies to put us in mind of our duty. And notwithstanding the same might be done by other means, yet it hath pleased the Church to think this means also convenient, and therefore hath used her liberty therein. As for Papists, Difference between crossing in Papistry, and in our church. we are far enough off from them, for they pictured the sign of the cross and did worship it, so do not we: they used it to drive away spirits and devils, so do not we: they attributed power and virtue unto it, so do not we: they had it in their Churches, so have not we: they used it daily and nightly for religion sake, we only in Baptism for a sign and token, as I have said before: so that their abusing of it is sufficiently corrected. Neither is there any man that knoweth not to what end and purpose we use it. Chap. 3. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 136. somewhat past the midst. Concerning the other reason of the profitable signification of the Cross, I have showed that that maketh the thing a great deal worse, and bringeth in a new word into the Church, whereas there aught to be no Doctor herded in the Church but only our Saviour Christ. For 〈◊〉 ease significations be good, than the Papists have to answer us, that their Ceremonies be ot dumb, which have as likely and as glorious significations as these are, and so indeed they aye that their ceremonies are not dumb ceremonies, for so much as they signify so good things. ut although it be the word of God that we should not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ, t is it not the word of God, that we should be kept in remembrance and observation of that, two lines drawn a cross, one over another in the child's forehead, but a fond toy, and idle vice of man's brain. Io. Whitgifte. The signification of the Papistical ceremonies, was only known to themselves, Difference betwixt 〈◊〉 sticall 〈◊〉 nies 〈◊〉 being used in the Church without any declaration of such signification, and therefore they might worthily be counted dumb, and unprofitable, but it is not so in this, for the signification is joined with the sign, & published in a tongue known. The Papistical Ceremonies were in number many, and they had annexed unto them an opinion of worship, and a necessity unto salvation. etc. which made them wicked, but all these be far from this, and other Ceremonies used by us, and for as much as there is no word of God against it, and it hath a profitable signification, the Church may use it though it be not expressed in the word, as it may do other rites, according to that that I have proved before entreating of the authority of the Tract. 〈◊〉 church in such matters. Chap. 3. the. 6. Division. Admonition. Fourthly, they do superstitiously and wickedly institute a new Sacrament, which is proper to Christ only, marking the child in the forehead with a Cross, in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ. We have made mention before of that wicked divorce of the word and Sacraments, Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 192. Sect. 3 Concerning the fourth toy, that is Crossing the child in the forehead, which you call wicked and superstitious, I have before declared Master Bucers' opinion: It may be left, and it hath been used in the Primitive Church, and may be so still, without either superstition or wickedness. Neither doth it any more make a Sacrament (because Crossing 〈◊〉 Sacra . it is in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confess Christ crucified) than your sitting doth at the communion in token of rest, that is a full finishing through Christ of the Ceremonial . law. etc. I think you know that every Ceremony betokening something, is not by and by a Sacrament, and therefore here is as yet no wicked divorce of the word and Sacraments, except it be made by you. T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. ult. In the. 192. page, unto the Admonition obiectiing that by this significafion it is made a Sacrament. M. Doctor answereth that every ceremony which betokeneth something is not a Sacrament. I would know what maketh a Sacrament, if a doctrine annexed unto an outward sign doth not make a Sacrament. And I am sure there was no outward sign neither in the old Testament, nor i the new which hath a doctrine oyned with it, which is not a Sacrament. For if he will take the nature of the Sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth, and that there be no Sacraments but when as to the element, there cometh the word, (*) A monifest 〈◊〉, the Circuneision can be no sacrament: besides that, seeing that master Doctor hath condemned the allegory and signification of sitting at the lords supper, saying that it is Papistieall, I marvel what privilege he hath or special licence, that he may allow that in himself and in his own assertions, which he saith is unlawful and papistical in others, especially seeing the allegory of the sitting was never used by the Papists, but this of crossing is. And if the licence of allegories be allowed, I see not why Oil may not be brought into the Sacrament, as well as crossing, both because it hath beone a Sacrament of God before, and for that the signification thereof (betokening the gifts of the holy Ghost, and shadowing out the power and efficacy of those gifts) carrieth as great a show of wisdom and Christian instruction, as doth the crossing. Io. Whitgifte. You are not ignorant, I am sure, that to the making of a Sacrament, besides What is required to the making of a sacrament. the external element, there is required a commandment of God in his word, that it should be done, and a promise' annexed unto it, where of the Sacrament is a seal: so it was in circumcision, and so it is in the Supper and Baptism. And surely I marvel at this your saying, If we will take the nature of the sacrament straightly Circumcision a Sacrament according to Augustine's rule. as Augustine doth, and that there be no sacraments, but where as to the element, there cometh the word, the Circumcision can be no sacrament. I think you are not well advised, for what doth Saint Augustine require in a Sacrament? Doth he not requir the word, and an external element? And are not both these to be found in circumcision? The external element is the foreskin: it is commanded in Genesis. 17. And there is the promise annexed, whereof it is a seal and a Sacrament: Gen. 17. and what doth Saint Augustine require more in a Sacrament? But I will impute this saying of yours rather to some oversight or lack of due consideration, than to ignorance, for I think it unpossible that a man of your profession should be ignorant in the nature and definition of a Sacrament. A Sacrament, I mean not in the largest signification, but as it is properly used, and as we call the lords Supper and Baptism Sacraments. For Sacraments in the proper signification, be mystical signs ordained by God himself, consisting in the word of The proper signification of sacraments God, in figures and in things signified, whereby he keepeth in man's memory, and sometimes renueth his large benefits bestowed upon his Church, whereby also he sealeth or assureth his promises, and showeth outwardly, and as it were layeth before our eyes those things to behold which inwardly he worketh in us: yea by them he strengtheneth and increaseth our faith, by the holy Ghost working in our hearts. And to be short, by his Sacraments he separateth us from all other people, from all other religions, consecrating us and binding us to him only, and signifieth what he requireth of us to be done. Now every ceremony signifying any thing, hath not these conditions and properties, Every signifying ceremony is not a acrament. Wherefore every ceremony signifying any thing, is not a Sacrament, and therefore crossing in Baptism though it signifieth some thing, yet it is no Sacrament. The allegory of sitting is dumb and speaketh nothing: but to the sign of the cross is added the signification in express words, as I have before declared, wherefore there is more cause to condemn the one, than there is to condemn the other: Moore for sitting at the lords supper hath not been used in the Church that I can read of, but crossing in baptizing hath, wherefore that were to invent a new Ceremony, and this is to retain the old, so that the reason of their allegory and of this Ceremony is not like. Of refusing isle in baptism, the Church hath just cause: and it useth her liberty in retaining crossing: neither will it burden the Sacraments with a multitude of unnecessary and unprofitable Ceremonies, and yet retain such as shall be thought most convenient. Chap. 3. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 137. Lin. 3. And to conclude, I see no cause why some crosses should be unlawful, and other some commendable: and why it should be a monument of Popery in wood and metal, and yet a Christian badge in the forehead of a man, why we should not like of it in streets and hyghewayes, and yet allow of it in the church. Io. Whitgifte. As there is great difference betwixt the painting of an Image, to set forth an history, and placing of it in the Church to be worshipped, so is there also as great difference, or more, betwixt crossing a child in the forehead at the time of baptism, with expressing the cause and use of it, and the placing of crosses in Churches or highways and streets. The crossing of the child's forehead, is but for a moment, the cross of wood and stone remaineth and continueth: the cross in the child's forehead is not made to be adored and worshipped, neither was ever any man so mad, as to imagine any such thing of it: but the crosses in churches, streets, and highways, of metal and wood, were erected to be worshipped, and were so accordingly, and therefore there is no like peril in the one, as there is in the other. ¶ Of the parties that are to be baptized. Chap. 4. The first Division. Admonition▪ That the parties to be baptized, if they be of the years of (p) Math. . 6. discretion, by themselves and in their own persons, or if they be infants, by their parents (in whose rooine if upon necessary occasion they be absent, some one of the congregation, knowing the good behaviour and sound faith of the parts) may both make rehearsal if their faith, and also if their faith be sound, & agreeable to holy scriptures, desire to be in the same baptized. And finally, that nothing be done in this or any other thing, but that which you have the express warrant of God's word for. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 111. Sect. 1. 2. I muse what you mean to say on this sort: The parties to be baptized Of those that are to be baptized. if they be of the years of discretion. etc. You know that in this Church of England none tarry for baptism so long, except it be in some secret congregation of Anabaptistes. The place alleged out of the third of Matthew telleth how they that were baptized confessed their sins, it speaketh nothing of any confession of faith. It is well that you admit some to answer for the infant in the Of the parents answering or their children. absence of the parent, and why not in his presence to? what scripture have you, that the Parent at the baptizing of his child should make a rehearsal of his faith, and desire that his child should be therein baptized? this I desire to know for mine own learning, for I neither remember any such thing in scripture, neither yet in any ancient writer: I do herein but desire to be instructed. T. C. Pag. 139. Lin. 6. And because I would have all those things together that touch this matter of baptisine, I come to that which he hath in the next Section and in. III page, where after his old manner, he wrangleth and quarreleth. For although the Admonition speaketh so plainly and so clearly, that as Hesiod. saith, it might 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 satisfy Momus, yet M. Doctor goeth about there, to bring it in suspicion of Anabaptisme, because allowing in plain words the baptism of infants, they add that if the parties be of discretion and years, themselves in their own people, should demand to be baptized. For saith he in this Church they tarry not for baptism so long: But is there no cause or may there not be, when they that be of age may be baptized? It may be there are jews in England, which understanding their blindness and confessing their sin, may desire to be baptized, and here be divers Moors in noble men's & gentlemen's houses, which are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christ, whereby there is some use and practise of this case. Io. Whitgifte. Anabaptisme being so crafty an heresy, that it dissembleth many things, until it Anabaptisme a crafty heresy . have sufficient aid, a man can not be to suspicious of it, especially in those that walk in steps so like unto it. And yet I speak nothing in that place, that may bring the A thours of the Admonition into suspicion of Anabaptisme, unless they suspect themselves, or that you would have them suspected: for you know the old proverb. Conscius ipse sibi. etc. It may be in deed that there be jews in England, & Moors, & Turk's 〈◊〉 and that some of them being converted to the faith, be afterward baptized, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is so, but the case is very rare, and there is no man that doubteth but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be examined in their faith before they be admitted to baptism. This is against nothing that I have said. Chap. 4. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 111. Sect. 3 & Pag. 112. Sect. 1 I know not what you mean when you say (That in the absence of Of the saith a ood be of the Parents. etc. the parents some one of the congregation knowing the good behaviour and sound faith of the Parents, may both make a rehearsal of their faith: and also if their faith be sound and agreeable to holy scriptures, desire in the same to be baptized) what if the parents be of evil behaviour? what if it be the child of a drunkard, or of an arlot? what if the parents be Papists? what if they be heretics? what Whether the chi of a wick man may be baptized. if they err in some point or other, in matters of faith? shall not their children be baptized? herein you have a further meaning than I can understand, and I fear few do perceive the poison that lieth hide under these words: may not a wicked father have a good child? may not a Papist or heretic have a believing son? will you seclude for the Parents sake (being himself baptized) his seed from baptism? Surely your fantasies, nay your dangerous errors will burst out one day in more plain manner. This reformation you seek for and desire, were rather a deformation nay a confusion: and whilst you will nothing to be done but that, for the which there is express warrant in God's word, you yourselves prescribe that which is not to be found in all God's word. Admonition. How convenient it were, seeing the children of the faithful only are to be baptized, that the father should and might, if conveniently, offer and present his child to be baptized, making an open confession of that faith, wherein he would have his child baptized, and how this is used in well ordered Churches. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 193. Sect. 2. But I know not whereto this tendeth that followeth: that is, How convenient it were, seeing that the children of the faithful only are to be baptized. etc. Do you not comprehend those under the name of faithful, which be baptized? for else it passeth man's understanding, to know who be faithful in deed, because the unbelievers may make a confession of No man knoweth who 〈◊〉, who is n . faith in words: and in this world it can not certainly by man be determined, who among Christians be faithful, who be unfaithful. I pray you answer me this one question: If a child be found whose father and mother be unknown (as it hath happened sometimes in our remembrance) will you not baptize it because the Parents be not forth coming, to make a confession of their faith? or because the sound faith of the Parents is unknown? but hereof I have spoken in another place. T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 1 After that M. Doctor hath cast himself in derision, at the feet of the authors of the Admonition, and desired to be taught of them whom he hath so contemptuously condemned as unlearned, he doth by and by raise up himself into his chair, and there sitteth doctorally, pposing the authors of the Admonition, as if they were his scholars: and upon occasion of the sound faith and good behaviour of the parents of the infant, mentioned by the Admonition, asketh first of all, what if the infant be the child of a drunkard? what if he be of a harlot? shall not saith he, the infant be baptized? If it were not that M. Doctor in ask these questions, doth also answer them, & answereth them far otherwise than the truth doth sum far, I would not be drawn from the causes which we have in hand by these roguing questions: now I can not leave them unanswered, because I see that M. Doctor doth make of the holy Sacrament of baptism (which is an entri into the house of God) and whereby only the family of God must enter, a common passage whereby he will have clean and unclean, holy and profane, as well those that are without the covenan e, as those that be within it, to pass by: and so maketh the church no household, but an Inn to receive whosoever cometh. Io. Whitgifte. All this is but a declaration of your modesty, and a signification of the mildness of your spirit, and therefore I will pass it over and leave it to the Reader to be considered of. Only I must tell you, that I make the holy Sacrament of baptism no other kind of passage, than God himself hath made it, and the Church of Christ hath ever used it. Good and evil, clean and unclean, holy and profane, must needs pass by it, except you will in deed in more ample and large manner tie the grace of God unto it, than ever did the Papists, and say that all that be baptized be also saved: or else join with the Anabaptistes in this, that after baptism a man cannot sin. Who can tell whither he be holy or unholy, good or evil, clean or unclean, elect or reprobate, of the household of the Church, or not of the Church, that is baptized, be he infant, or at the years of discretion? I tell you plain this assertion of yours savoureth very strongly of heresy in my opinion: but let us come to your reasons if you have any. Chap. 4. the. 3. Division. T. C. pag. 137. Sect. 1 I will answer therefore almost in as many words as the questions be asked. If one of the Parents be neither drunkard nor adulterer, the child is holy by virtue of the covenant, for one of the Parent's sakes. If they be both, and yet not obstinate in their sin, whereby the Church hath not proceeded to excommunication, (them selves being yet of the Church) their child cannot, nor aught not to be refused. To the second question, wherein he asketh what if the child be of Papists or heretics. If both be Papists or condemned heretics (if so be I may distinguish Papists from heretics) and cut of from the church, their children cannot be received, because they are not in the coucnant, if either of them be faithful, I have answered before that it aught to be received. To other questions wherein he asketh, what if they err in some points of matters of faith. If it be but an error, and be not in those points which race the foundations of faith, because they still, notwithstanding their error are to be counted amongst the faithful, their children pertcyne unto the promise, and therefore to the sacrament of the promise. Io. Whitgifte. Surely these be very short answers for so weighty questions, and so necessary The presumption of the Replier. points of doctrine: will you presume thus to determine in matters of salvation and danmation, the doctrine being so strange and unheard of, without either scripture, reason, or other authority? are we now come to (ipse dixit)? nay it may not be so, you have no such authority or credit the I know. But let us a little better consider your assertions, and mark your drift, Page. 34. you say that there are no whoremongers, nor Pag. 34. Sect. 1 drunkards in the church that are knowem, because the church doth excommunicate them, whereby you seem to run headlong into this heresy of the Anabaptistes, that, that is not the Church of Christ, in the which are known drunkards and whoremongers, & no excommunication used against them. The which heresy is well and learnedly Caluine. Bullinger. confuted by M. Caluine in his book against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewise, Lib. 6. cap. 10. adversus Anabap. Moreover this your assertion seemeth to bring in rebaptisation. For if whoremongers, The assertion of the Replier tendeth to rebaptisation. drunkards, and such like wicked persons by excommunication be so cut of from the Church, that their children may not be baptized, then must it follow that their baptism is cut of also: which if it be true, how can they upon repentance be admitted again except they be rebaptized? and what is this else but to make baptism, to be iterated as the Lord▪ supper is, when as by the consent of all the Churches, Baptism once ministered remains per petual. there is but one baptism, wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened, seeing that baptism once received doth endure for ever, as a perpetual sign of our adoption. And how can you allow the baptism of heretics to be good, if you disallow the baptizing of their children that be excommunicated? may an heretic excommunicated baptize, and is that baptism good, and may not the children of him that is excommunicated receive the sacrament of baptism? can any fault of the parents, having once received the scale of the covenant, seclude their children from rcceyving the same seal? you have neither example nor precept in scripture to justify your assertion with: it is against the nature of the sacrament, the practice of the Church, and the whole consent of learned writers (some few excepted which erred in rebaptisation) and yet you boldly here set it down, without any further proof at all. S. Augustine in his book Contraepist. Parme. reasoneth wholly to the contrary, for there he proveth that heretics which cut of themselves from the Church, do neither Heretics lose not their baptism. amittere baptismum, nor ius dandi baptismum, that is, neither lose their baptism, nor authority to baptize: and thereupon concludeth against rebaptisation, which must needs follow if either of the other be taken away. The Donatists themselves were at the length compelled to confess, that heretics divided from the church, did not amity e bapt smum, lose their baptism. And in the same book August. hath this general sentence, That the fault of such heretics, is in cutting of themselves from the church, which may be corrected by returning again to the church, non in sacramentis quae ubicunque sunt, ipsa vera sunt, not in the sacraments, which wheresoever they are, are true. This being so (as it is) then are you very near to Donatisme, nay far beyond it, in The Replier near to Donatis e. saying that the children of the heretics, and such as by excommunication are cut of from the Church, may not be baptized. Surely if the Parents being heretics and cut of from the Church, do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum, keep still their baptism, (as Saint Augustine sayeth) I see not how by any means you can justify the secluding of their children from being baptized: or if otherwise I can not see how a Papist being converted, can be received into the Church, without he be anew baptized, or how such children of known Papists, and excommunicate persons, as have been baptized in this Church of England or else ● here, from the beginning of the Gospel to this day, can be counted Christians, unless they be rebaptized. And concerning Papists, whom you have denied to be in the Church, Pag. 34. Sect. seven. and to whose children also you here deny baptism, I will ask you but this one question, what you think of all those, which are not only children to professed and known Papists, but baptized also in the romish Church? for if the children of known Papists, may not be baptized, what shall we say of ourselves, and of our Parents and predecessors, who all, or the most of them were professed Papists? is not this the ground of Rebaptisation, and Anabaptisme? But that the Reader may the better understand your error, and the rather believe it to be an error in dée , I will set down M. Beza his opinion of this matter, from whom you are loath (I am sure) to be thought to descent. In his book of Epistles, Epist. 10 answering this question (whether the infants of such as are excommunicated Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10. may be baptized, and in whose faith, when as they of whom they are begotten, are not members of the Church) determineth thus. God forbid that we should judge all one and a like of all such as are not called the members of the Church, for there are four kinds of men far differing among themselves. One is of them, which neither by election, neither in themselves are by any means the members of Christ, whom we call by the word of God reprobate and the vessels of anger, and appointed to destruction, although many of them sometime in appearance, that is in outward profession, yea and a certain semblance of faith, continuing for a time, wherewith they mock both themselves and other, are reckoned among the members of the Church, of whom john sayeth, if they had been of us, they would have tarried with us. The second is of those, which are choose in Christ by eternal election, and therefore are the members of Christ, yet by purpose only not in deed: in which sense Paul saith that he was severed from his mother's womb, when as notwithstanding, he was a long time the member of Satan persecuting Christ: and in an other place sayeth, that grace was given us in Christ before everlasting times: and again, that God loved us when we were his enemies. In the third kind we count them, that both by election and in deed are the sons of God, because as the Apostle saith, they are ruled by the spirit of God. Finally, in the fourth place we reckon those, who whereas they appertain to the election of God, and be engrafted in Christ, yet because having fallen in some thing (as men often do) they be an offence to the other members, therefore lest the wound should be deadly, which Satan and the flesh hath given them, need a more sharp remedy, and are therefore excommunicated or delivered to Satan, not that they should perish (for it is not possible that they should perish which are the members of Christ) But that godly sorowefulnesse may 'cause repentance, either that their flesh (that is the old man) dying, their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. These therefore be they whom we call excommunicated, and who for two respects are not members of the Church, one according to men, because they are excluded from the holy fellowship of the faithful: the other according to God, because that saying of Christ is sure, that, that is bound in heaven, which is rightly bound of the Church in the earth. But it is an other thing truly to be bound in heaven, than to be cast out of that true kingdom of heaven, which never happeneth to any of the elect. For that saying of Christ standeth, that those shall never be cast out whom the Father hath given the Son: and that of Lohn, if they had been of us, they would have tarried with us: and that of the Apostle, the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth who be is. Therefore as touching Christ, these are said not to be his, nor members of the Church, not as the first which are reprobate and damned, but because for a time as concerning the force and efficacy of the spirit, they are without him, as being so engrafted in him, that they receive not that lively nourishment of the spirit of Christ for a time, that is, till grace of repentance be given them. To conclude, the difference betwixt these and the first is such, as is between a leg of wood joined cunningly to a true body (which notwithstanding is not a leg in deed, neither is truly called a part of that man) and betwixt a true leg, that yet for a time receiveth not nourishment in such sort, that unless it be refreshed by the strength of some sharp medicine, it will necessarily putrific and clean perish. Wherefore seeing these things be thus, and charity biddeth us to hope well of all, yea and also to take care for them, which are held as captives in the snare of the devil: God forbid that the Parents being excommunicated, we should conclude that their posterity belongeth not to the kingdom of God. Furthermore, there is great difference between those, which although they be notorious offenders, nevertheless depart not from the Church, and between those that are manifest rennegates, joining themselves with the enemies to oppress the truth of the Gospel. Further, it were unreasonable to esteem of Papists, much less Christians excommunicated, no otherwise than of Turks: for although it be unpossible to serve the Pope and Christ together, yet it is certain that Popery is an erring of the Christian Church. Wherefore the Lord hath in the midst of that gulf of Papistry preserved Baptism, that is the first entering into the Church: whereby it appeareth (as also the thing itself proveth in us) that although Papisme be not the Church, yet the Church hath been and is (as it were) drowned or covered in it: which can not by any means be said of the Turks, which never gave their names to Chryst. Lastly, for so much as the goodness of God is extended to a thousand generations, that is (as it were) without end, it were hard if we should judge of the children, whether they belong to the covenant of God or not, by the profession of their last Parents. Therefore of all these arguments joined together, we conclude that the children of people excommunicate, abiding yet in the Church of God, can by no right be debarred from Baptism, if in case a meet surety be had, which will make promise to the Church that they shall be virtuously brought up, which I think aught to be done of the Ministers themselves, and other Godly men, rather than their Baptism should any longer be deferred. Yet it shall not be amiss, if the Minister before he baptize the infant, taking hereof occasion, earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present, to epentance before the assembly, which is oftentimes practised in our Churches. Hitherto Beza. Chap. 4. the 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page, he asketh what if the Parents of the child be unknown, if it be, yet if godly men will present it to baptism, with promise of seeing it brought up in the fear of the Lord, for so much as it is found in a place where the church is, and therefore by likelihood to appertain to some that was of the church, I think it may be baptized, if the church think it good in this last case. Io. Whitgifte. And why should you but think so? what reason is there why it should not be baptized? But yet this answer of yours doth nothing justify the Aomonition: Which would, The parents to present their children, if conventently, making an open confession of that faith, wherein he would have his child baptized: For this can not be done where the Parents be unknown, neither is (in such case) any other man able to testify of what faith or behaviour the parents were. Chap. 4. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. ult. Then he goeth forth in the. III Page to prove that the children of those, which he hath reckoned may be baptized, and demandeth whither a wicked father may have a good child, a Papist or Heretic father a believing child? yes verily may they. So may have, and hath the Turk and the jew, and yet their children are not to be received unless their faith doth fitst appear by confession, But you say the Papist an Heretic be baptized, and so are not the jews and Turks. Their baptism being cut of from the Church, maketh them as much strangers unto it, as was Ishmael and Esau, which albeit they were circumcised, yet being cast out of the Church, they were no more to be accounted to be of the body of God's people, than those which never were in the Church. Now you see (*) It is poison in deed, and the same why he I suspected. the poison (as you term it) which lieth hid under these words, and if it be as you say poison, let us have some of your treacle. In all the rest of that section, there is nothing but that, which he spoke of before, only the Eldership is amed, which cometh to be entreated of in the next section. Io. Whitgifte. If their baptism be so cut of, that it also taketh away the privilege from their children, how can they be admitted again into the Church without rebaptisation? S. Augustine in the place before recited, sayeth that Heretics though they be cut of from the Church yet they do retain their Baptism, which being true, there is no reason to seclude their children from it. I cannot learn but that the Sons of Ishmael were circumcised: for it is written of the Egyptians (as P. Martyr doth note) P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at. 14. years of age, because Ishmael was then circumcised: Which time of circumcision the Arabians observed in like manner. And therefore it is not unlike but that the Posterity of Ishmael was circumcised. And as for the Sons of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision, seeing Esau himself received the sign of the covenant, notwithstanding he was before rejected. Rom. 9 And that his posterity were not so far estranged from the people of God as those that never were in the Church, it may appear by that which is written in deuteronomy, where the Israelites are willed to acknowledge them for their Deut. 23. vers. 7. 8. The papists lie e oh the 〈◊〉 v der jeroboani etc. Brethren, and to admit their children in the third Generation, into the congregation of the Lord. And yet are not the Papists like unto Ishmael and Esau: but rather the same with the Israelites under jeroboam, etc. for as they professed the law of Moses, had circumcision, and were not in all points strange from the faith of the jews: but yet joined thereunto Idolatry, and the false worshipping of God: even so the Papists pretend the law of God, use the Sacraments, profess Christianity, and are not in all points strange from Christian faith, but yet have corrupted the same with idolatrous worshipping, and diverse other kinds of superstition, and errors. Therefore sayeth M. Beza very well in the words before recited, Beza Epist. 10. Papismus est Ecclesiae Christianae aberratio. Papisme is the erring of the Christian Church: And Ecclesia est velut immersa in Papatu, quod de Turcis dici nullo modo potest, qui nunquàm Cbristo nomen dederunt: the Church is as it were covered or drowned in Papisme, which can by no means be said of Turks, which never gave their names to Christ or professed Christianity. Wherefore if you had made a right comparison, you should not have compared them to Ishmael and Esau, but to the revolting Israelites, as M. Martyr doth, saying thus expressly, Quales olim Israelitae, etc. Such are the Martyr. in. 3. cap. 1. Reg. Papists at this day, if they be compared with the professors of the Gospel, as were the Israelites in respect of the jews. But full well you knew that in so doing, your error would soon have been espied: for though the Israelites were separated from the true Church, yet were not their children cut of from the covenant, or debarred from the sign thereof. The poison which (you say) we now see, and that lieth hide under these words, is, The poison that is hid in the Repliers doctrine. the debarring of children from Baptism for their parent's offences being baptized, and rebaptisation: Both which you do in more plain manner affirm than the Admonition doth, and therefore for treacle to cure these venomous diseases I send you to the learned works of S. August. Contra epist. Parmeniani: de Baptis. contra Donatistas': of M. Bullinger, Zuinglius, Caluine and others, which have written against these poisoned points of the Anabaptistes and Donatists. ¶ Of the Signiory or government by Seniors. Tract. 17. Whether there were such as the Admonition calleth Seniors, in every Congregation. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 138.. Sect. 1 As though M. Doctor were at utter defiance with all good order, and method of writing, Of Seniors. that which was given him orderly by the Admonition, he hath turned upside-down. For where the Admonition speaketh first of the Elders, then of that which is annexed unto them, which is the discipline (whereof excommunication is a part) considering that the subject is in nature before that which is annexed unto it, M. Doctor hath turned it clean contrary, and first speaketh of excommunication, and then of the Elders. I will therefore (that the reader may the easilier understand that which is said) follow the order of the Admonition, and first of all speak of the Elders or Seniors which aught to be in the Church, and in speaking of them, I must call to remembrance that division which I made mention on before, that is, of those which have care and govern the whole congregation, some there be which do both teach the word and govern also: some which do not teach, but only govern and be aiders in the government, unto those which do teach. This division is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle unto Timothe: where he sayeth, the Elders 1. Tim. 5. which rule well, are worthy of double honour, and especially those which labour in the word and doctrine, where he maketh by plain and express words two sorts of Elders, the one which doth both govern and teach: the other which governeth only. These therefore are the Seniors which are meant, whose office is in helping the Pastor or Bishop, in the government of that particular Church, where they be placed Pastors and Elders. Io. Whitgifte. It is no rare matter in handling any thing, first to entreat of that which is natura posterius: and we see it commonly so used by Logicians, who first treat of that part which is called judicium, then of the other which is called Inuentio, notwithstanding Inuentio in nature is before judicium. But I will not spend ink and paper in answering so vain a cavillation. The truth is, that I in mine Answer follow the order of the Admonition. For I prove that it was not the office of those Seniors to govern the Church, etc. because they had nothing to do with excommunication being the chiefest discipline in the Church, seeing the execution thereof was committed to the Minister of the word only. So that I first take away authority from their Seniors, & then answer the places which they abuse for the establishing of their authority. My words be these: What Scripture have you to prove that such Seniors as you mean, and Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiastical discipline? but all this is from the purpose. Your division of Seniors, though I know that it hath learned patrons, yet do I not understand how it agreeth with the word of God: for if we consider the writings of the Apostles, it will evidently appear that Presbyter is usually taken for Episcopus, or Minister, or Pastor, Presbyter usually taken for a minister. 1. Pet. 5. Act. 20. Tit. 1. as 1. Pet. 5. Presbyteros qui inter vos sunt bortor, qui sum & ipse Presbyter: etc. pascite. etc. The Elders which are among you, I beseech, which am myself also an Elder. etc Feed the the flock. etc. And in the Act. S. Paul calleth the same men Seniors and Bishops: and by Seniors means none other than Bishops and Pastors, as it is evident in that place. Likewise ad Titum. 1. he sayeth, that Titus was left at Creta, ut constituat opidatim presbyteros, That he should appoint Elders in every city. And declaring what qualities they aught to have, he addeth: Oportet Episcopum immunem esse à crimine. etc. A Bishop must be unreprovable: etc. Whereby it is manifest that he taketh them both for one. The only place that hath any show for the proof of your distinction, is that, Two kinds of Presbyteri. 1. Tim. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Presbyteri qui bene praesunt, etc. The Elders that rule well are worthy double honour, specially they which labour in the word and doctrine. Where although S. Paul maketh a distinction of Seniors, yet it is certain, that under the name of Seniors, he doth comprehend such only as be Ministers of the word or Sacraments. Tract. 9 cap. 1. the. 15. division. & Tract. 6. Cap. 1. And I have before sufficiently proved that the administration of the Sacraments may be committed to some, to whom the preaching of the word of God is not committed. And this distinction of Ministers doth this place. 1. Timot. 5. very well justify: for unless the Apostle S. Paul had meant, that of Ministers some preached, some only ministered the Sacraments, he would not have said, Maximè qui laborant sermon & doctrina only, but, qui laborant sermon & administratione Sacramentorum: for so should he plainly have declared that there were some Presbyteri which did neither labour in Preaching, nor in the Administration of the Sacraments. This same distinction of ministers is also justified by that which the Apostle speaketh. 1. Corinth. 1. Non misit me Christus ut Baptizarem. etc. Meaning 1. Cor. 1. because the word was the greater, therefore he might not leave the greater for the less. Now if all they that baptised had the gift of preaching also, why might not and aught not they in like manner to say, Christ sent us not to baptise, but to preach? S. Ambrose writing upon these words: Aduersus Presbyterum, etc. Against an Ambrose. 1. Tim. 5. Elder receive no accusation. etc. Which immediately follow the other, doth understand thereby Ministers and Priests only, for he calleth them Vicarios Christi, Christ's vicar's, and Antistites Dei: Gods Prelates. So doth M. Caluine in like manner expound Calvin. in. 1. Tim. 5. the same word of Pastors, and Teachers. I know that in the exposition of this sentence, Qui bene praesunt presbyteri, etc. he maketh two kinds of Seniors, but yet doth he Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 52. (where he purposely speaketh of Seniors) say that they were all preachers. Neither do I see any cause, why this word Presbyter should not in both these places be taken in one and the same signification. Chrysostom also (if Chrysost. his words be well marked) upon this place of Timoth. Presbyteri qui bene praesunt, etc. it will appear that he doth not extend this word Presbyter to any other, than to Ministers of the word and Sacraments. The words of Jerome be plain, for expounding these words, Maximè qui laborant Jerome . etc. He sayeth thus: Non dixit omnium qui habent verbum, sed qui laborant in verbo: Caeterùm omnes habentes praecipit ordinare. He sayeth not of all that have the word, but that labour in the word: But he commanded him to ordain, all that have the word. And surely I have not read this word in any ancient History or Father, commonly taken in any other signification. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Admonition. In stead of chancellors, Archdeacon's, officials, Commissaries, Proctors, Doctors, summoners, Churchwardens and such like, you have to place in every congregation a lawful and godly Signiory. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 125. Sect. 1 But I pray you do thus much for me, first prove that there was Certain questions demanded to be proved. in every congregation such as you call Seniors: when you have done that, them show me that that office & kind of regiment aught to be perpetual, and not rather to be altered according to the state and condition of the Church: last of all, that those Seniors were lay men as we call them, and not rather ministers of the word, and Bishops. When you have satisfied my request in these three points, then will I proceed further in this matter. T. C. Pag. 138. In the midst. Now that it is known what these Seniors be, in entreating of them I am content to answer M. Doctor three requests which he maketh in the, 125. page, where he desireth that one would do so much for him, as first to show that these Seniors were in every congregation: secondarily, he will have it proved that this regiment is perpetual, and not to be altered: last of all, he desireth to know, whether these Seniors werelay men, and not rather ministers of the word and Bishops. This last is a fond request, and such as is already answered, but he must be followed. For the first therefore, which is that there were Seniors in every congregation, although M. Doctor in the. 114. page, & in the. 132. page constrained by Ambrose authority, confesseth it in plain words, yet because he requireth it to be showed and maketh a jest at those places, which are alleged out of the scripture to prove it, some thing must be spoken thereof. Io. Whitgifte. You build your platform upon marvelous slender proofs, & except the Reader will believe your bore words, he shall find great scarcity of any other arguments. For where have you as yet proved your opinion of Seniors to be true? The place of S. Paul. 1. Tm. 5 doth not help you, being otherwise taken & expounded of the ancient fathers: but I will follow your race. The last question you say is fond & already answered: Answered as yet it is not, and the fondness of it will appear, by the wisdom of your answer hereafter. The words of Ambrose be, that the Synagogue, & after the church, had Seniors. etc. in 1. Tim. 5. but he sayeth not that every several congregation had Seniors: for it was not so among the jews. Therefore it cannot be gathered of Ambrose, that every particular parish had Seniors. Neither is there any ancient Author that affirmeth it. Touching the having of Seniors in the Church, why it was then convenient, and is not so now, I have declared in the Answer to the Admonition. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 138. Somewhat past the midst. The first place is in the Acts, which is that Paul & Barnabas did appoint by election. Elders Act. 14. in every congregation, but it is (*) A 〈◊〉. not like they did appoint diverse ministers or Bishops, which preached in every congregation, which were not to be had for such a number of congregations as were then to be preached unto: therefore in every congregation there were besides those that preached, other Elders which did only in government assist the pastors which preached. And what should we follow conjectures here, when S. Paul doth in the place before alleged declare, 1. Tim. 9 what these elders are? Io. Whitgifte. If you have no stronger place to confirm your Seniors by, than this, they will fall The place Acts. 14. proveth nothing for Seniors. flat to the ground. For it is most certain that Luke in this place by Presbyteros, doth only mean Pastors and Preachers of the word, as he doth also through the whole Acts speaking of Christians: and it is a strange matter that you dare be bold to ground any point of government or doctrine upon so simple & slender conjectures. For what reason call you this: Paul & Barnabas did appoint by election elders in every congregation. etc. but it is not like they did appoint diverse ministers or Bishops which preached in every congregation, etc. therefore in every congregation there were besides those that preached, other elders, etc. First I say, that this argument doth consist only upon a vain conjecture, for it might be that the number of Preachers were such, that every congregation where Paul & Barnabas had to do, might have more preachers than one. But Lord what moveth you, to play the Sophister in so serious a cause? & so to dally in a matter so manifest? for how can you conclude by any thing here spoken, that Paul and Barnabas did ordain more than one Pastor or Presbyter in one congregation? for this that is said, that they ordained Elders or ministers in every congregation, doth not import that they ordained more than one, in every congregation, but that they ordained for divers congregations, diverse ministers, that is, for every congregation a Pastor. Doth not the Apostle S. Paul ad Tit. 1. use the like kind of speech when he said Tit. 1. unto him, For this cause I left thee at Creta, etc. Vt constituas opidatim presbyteros, & c? Where it is manifest, as I said before, that he means Bishops and Pastors: and yet his intent was not that Titus should appoint for every congregation many Pastors. This is mere cavilling: but to cut of all other doubts, M. Caluine is sufficient to determine this controversy, who expounding this place of the. 14. Acto. doth understand it of Pastors only & Preachers. His words be these: Presbyteros bic vocari interpreter, Caluine. quibus iniunctum erat docendi munus. I interpret those here to be called Presbyteros, unto whom the office of preaching was committed. And a little after: Now whereas Luke saith that they were appointed over several churches, thereof may the difference between their office and the office of the Apostles be gathered, for the Apostles had in no place any certain abiding, but went from place to place always to found new churches: but Pastors were every where addicted to their proper Churches. So says Brentius likewise: Constituerunt Brentius. per singulas Ecclesias Presbyteros, quos alias scriptura Episcopos, alias pastors vocat. They appointed through every congregation Elders, whom the scripture sometimes calleth Bishops, sometimes Pastors. So that this place of the Acts speaketh not one word of your Seniors. And therefore you cannot expound it by that in the. 1. Tim. 5. though it served your purpose, as it doth not. For Luke (to my remembrance) nowhere in the Acts, doth take this word Presbyter for any other than such as have authority, to preach the word & minister the sacraments, except he means the elders of the jews. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. Admonition. Let us come now to the third part, which concerneth ecclesiastical discipline: the officers that have to deal in this charge, are chiefly three, Ministers, Preachers or Pastors, of whom before. Seniors or Elders and Deacons. Concerning Seniors, not only their office, but their name also is out of this English Church utterly removed. Their office was to ( q Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 12. 28. ) govern the church with the rest of the Ministers, to consult, to admonish, to correct, and to order all things appertaining to the state of the congregation. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Somewhat past the midst. To prove that the office of Seniors was to govern the Church with the rest of the ministers, to consult, to admonish, to correct and to order all things appertaining, to the state of the congregation, you allege Act. 14. & the. 1. Corinth. 12. In the 14. of the Acts it is written that Paul & Barnabas ordained Elders at Antioch in every Church, but there is not one word spoken of their office, & therefore that text serveth not your purpose. You have alleged this self same place twice before, to prove that no minister of the word aught to be placed in any congregation, but by consent of the people, & that the election of ministers aught to be by the congregation: now you allege it to prove the office of your Seniors: can it both be meant of Seniors, and of the ministers of the word, being as you say, distinct offices? will you thus dally with the scripture, and make it a nose of wax (as the Papists term it) to wrest and wryth it which way you list? here you must needs confess either contradiction in yourselves, or falsification. T. C. Pag. 138. Towards the end. But M. Doctor saith that there is no mention made of the office of such an Elder: therefore that place maketh nothing to prove that there should be such Elders in every congregation: so M. Doctor writ, he careth not what he write. Belike he thinketh the credit of his degree of Doctorship, will give weight to that which is light, and pith to that which is froth, or else he would never answer thus. For than I will, if this be a good reason, say, that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place, describe the office of the Pastor or Bishop which preacheth the word, therefore that place proveth not that in every congregation there should be a bishop or a Pastor. Besides that M. Doctor taketh up the Authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatively of the testimony of all the Scriptures, and yet he reasoneth negatively of one only sentence in the Scripture. (*) An untruth, for he maketh no such conclusion. For the would conclude, that for so much as there is no duty of a Senior described in that place, therefore there is no duty at all, and consequently no Senior. Io. Whitgifte. The Authors of the Admonition Fol. 112. to prove that the office of the Senior was, to govern the Church with the rest of the ministers, to c nsulte, to admonish, to correct and to order all things appertaining to the state of the congregation, allege the. 14. of the Acts, vers. 4. 1. Cor. 12. vers. 28. I declare in mine Answer how unaptly these places are alleged for that purpose, being not one word there spoken of any such office of Seniors: as it may appear in the words themselves, being placed before. Now whether I make any such reason as you frame in my name, or not, let the Reader judge. The places be quoted in the Admonition to prove the office of Seniors, and not to prove that there were Seniors in every congregation: and you being not able to salve that their unskilfulness, make M. Doctor speak what you please, and shift of the matter after your accustomed manner. I make not that conclusion you charge me with: if I do, set down my words & convince me: if I do not, who hath taught you to speak untruly? my words I have expressed: let the Reader consider of them, and here also take a note of your truth and honesty. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1 Afterwards he sayeth, that for so much as this place hath been used to prove a Pastor or By hop in every church: therefore it cannot be used to prove these Elders, so that (sayeth he) there must needs be either a contradiction, or else a falsification. The place is rightly alleged for both, he one and the other, and yet neither contradiction to themselves, nor falsification of the place: but only a mist before M. Doctor's eyes, which will not let him see a plain and evident truth, which is, the word (Elder) is general and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and govern, and those which govern only, as hath been showed out of S. Paul. Io. Whitgifte. If it had these two significations, (as I have proved that it hath not) yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Acts, I cannot read in any writer, and I have showed M. calvin's and M. Brentius judgements to the contrary, which in any wise man's opinion are able to countervail your credit and bore denial. And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the self same signification, except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously, and useth equivocations. Which were to derogate much from the simplicity and plainness of the Scriptures. Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleging that text in some place to prove the election of Pastors, and in some other place to prove the office of Seniors, speak they know not what, and dally with the Scriptures, even as you do in like manner, when you take upon you the defence of so manifest a contradiction. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 1 In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paul sayeth, that God hath ordained in the Go rnours in the church. Church first Apostles, than Prophets, thirdly teachers, then them that do miracles, after that the gifts of healing, helpers, governors, diversities of tongues: here is not one word of the office of Seniors, neither yet of their names: for this word, governors, teacheth us, that Christ hath ordained in his church, some to bear rule & govern, but whether one in every congregation or more: whether ministers of the word or other: whether Magistrates or Seniors, it is not here expressed: howsoever it is, it maketh nothing for your purpose. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1 And whereas M. Doctor saith, that the place of the Corinth's may be understanded of civil 1. Co. 12. Magistrates, of preaching ministers, of governors of the (*) A manifest untruth, for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Church, and not of every particular Church, and finally any thing, rather than that whereof it is in dee e understanded: I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone, which is, that he can not put a difference between the Church and common wealth: and so between the Church offices, which he there speaketh of, and the offices of the common wealth, those which are cclesiasticall, and those which are civil. Then that he means not the minister which preacheth, it may appear, for that he had noted them before in the word (teachers) and last of all he can not mean governor of the whole Church, unless he should mean Pope, & if he will say he means an Archbishop which governeth a whole Province, besides that it is a bold speech without all warrant, I have showed before, that the word of God alloweth of no such office, and therefore it remaineth, that it must be understanded of this office of Elders. Io. Whitgifte. Here have you manifestly falls yed my book, and greatly abused me. For I have not these words, of governors of the whole Church, and not of every particular Church: neither any thing sounding that way: the Reader hath my words before his eyes, let him consider whether you have reported them truly, or no. Surely if there were nothing else, your oft leasings might sufficiently convince your doctrine of mere vanity and forgery. But to return to your Reply. First, I can not put any such difference betwixt the Church and a Christian common wealth, the Church officers and christian Magistrates, that they may not be comprehended under this word used in this place by the Apostle. For I utterly renounce that distinction invented by Papists, and maintained by you, which is, that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates. Magistrates do govern, not in the respect they be Christians, but in the respect they be men: and that they govern Christians, not in that they be Christians, but in that they be men. Which is, to give no more authority to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ, than to the great Turk. I am fully persuaded therefore, that there is no such distinction betwixt the Church of Christ, and a Christian common wealth, as you and the Papists dream of. And therefore there is no cause why th' Apostl may not in this place, under this word, Governors, comprehend as well civil Magistrates, as ecclesiastical. The which notwithstanding, I do not determinately affirm, as likewise I have not done in mine Answer: for I would be glad to learn, and to hear some reason to the contrary. Master Gualther seemeth to avour this opinion, for expounding this place, he saith: He comprehendeth seventhly Gualther in. Cor. 12. in this order, governors, under whom are contained civil people, which in worldly matters did aid all men, and had the hearing of causes, if any fallen out amongst the Christians. And a little after: There is no need of such publicly now a days, seeing there are christian Magistrates, by whose authority all these things may be better provided for. Moreover the Apostle may mean in that place Bishops or Pastors, of whom he made no mention before. For you will not have the office of a Pastor, & of a Doctor confounded, wherefore you forget yourself in saying, that in this word, teachers, he means the minister that teacheth, that is, the Pastor, for of him I am sure you mean. Last of all, I have no where said, that he means one governor of the whole Church, neither have I written one word tending to that end, but this I say again, whether the Apostle means one ruler in every congregation, or more, is not here determined: and I see no cause, as I have said, why in this place of th' Apostle, this word, Governors, may not either signify the Christian Magistrates oh Ecclesiastical, as Archbishops, Bishops, or whatsoever other by lawful authority are appointed in the Church: neither is there any reason to be showed, why he should rather mean your Seniors, than any other Magistrates. Sure I am that there be learned men which think that the Apostle in this word doth comprehend Ecclesiae gubernatores, tum civiles; tum ecclesiastic s: The governors of the Church as well civil as ecclesiastical. Howsoever it is, the place being doubtful, it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors, as perpetual. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. Admonition. In stead of these Seniors in ( r Rom. 1 . 8 ) every Church the Pope hath brought in, and yet we maintain the Lordship of one man over sundry churches, yea over many shires. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 115. Sect. ult. You allege in the margin these words in the. 12. to the Rom. (He that exhorteth, let him wait on exhortation: he that distribute h, let him do it with simplicity: he that ruleth, with diligence: he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.) To prove that in stead of these Seniors in every Church, the Pope hath brought in, and we yet maintain the Lordship of one man over many Churches. etc. I know not how this gear hangs together, or to what purpose you should allege that place: it neither proveth, that in every Church there was Elders, neither that in place of them the Pope hath brought in the the Lordship of one man over many Churches. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1 The same answer may be made unto that which he saith of the place to the Romans, where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church, after that he had set forth the office of the pastor, and of the Doctor, he addeth those other two offices of the Church, whereof one was occupied in the government only, the other in providing for the poor, and helping the sick. And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places, I should add the sentences of the writers upon those places, as M. Caluine, M. Beza. M. Martyr, M. Bucer. etc. It should easily appear, what just cause M. Doctor hath to say, that it is to dally with the scriptures, & to make them a nose of wax, in alleging of these to prove the Elders, that all men might understand, what terrible outcries he maketh, as in this place, so almost in all other, when there is cause, that he should lay his hand upon his mouth. Io. Whitgifte. The like answer do I make to that place also that I made to the former. M. Caluine Caluine. saith, that these words of the Apostle, Qui pr est in diligentia: he that ruleth with diligence, may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus: to all kind of rule or government. And M. Martyr upon the same words, saith, that he doubteth not, multas fuisse in Martyr. Beza. ecclesia praefecturas: that there were many governments in the Church. M. Beza likewise although he saith that the Apostle in this word understandeth presbyteros, yet he addeth, qui & ipsi interdum doctrinae verbo praeerant: which also sometime did preach the word. M. Bucer saith plainly, Est praeterea qui praeest, qui pascendi & regendi ecclesiam mun accepit: Bucer. Furthermore he doth rule, which hath received the office of feeding and governing the Church. Whereby he must needs understand the Pastor, & not any unpreaching Senior. But what kind of argument call you this? he that ruleth, must do it with diligence, Ergo, there must be Seniors in every parish. You should rather conclude thus, therefore those to whom God hath committed any office of government, must do the same diligently and carefully. So that although these learned men do understand this place of Seniors, yet do they The place Rom. 12. is general. think, that it may also be understanded of other magistrates & governors: & therefore upon their interpretations you can not conclude any certainty of your Seniors. And M. Beza seemeth by the name of Seniors, to understand the ministers of the word, that is, Bishops & pastors: and there is no doubt, but that the Apostle in this place doth admonish all to be diligent in their office, that have any kind of government committed unto them. Wherefore you may not restrain this to any one particular kind of government, which the Apostle hath generally spoken of all: for that were in deed to dally with the scriptures, & to abuse them as the Papists do, yea to make them a nose of wax, as I have said before. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to writ, not so much to pro e that there were Seniors in every Church (which is a thing confessed) as to redeem those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations, for as for the proof of Elders in every congregation, esides his confession, I need have no more but his own reason. For he saith that the office of these Elders in every Church▪ was in that tun wherein there were no christian Magistrates, and when there was perfecution, but in the Apostles times there was both persecution, and no christian Magistrates, therefore in their time the office of these Elders was in every congregation. Io. Whitgifte. If this be a good argument, S. Paul ad Rom. 12. saith, he that uleth, must do it diligently: Ergo, every particular congregation must of necessity be governed by Seniors: Or this, the Apostle. 1. Cor. 12. saith, that God hath placed in his Church governors, Ergo, every parish must have a Signiory: Or this, Paul and Barnabas in every Church ordained pastors, therefore in every Church there must be a company of Seniors, to whom the whole government of the parish is to be committed: If (I say) these be good & sure arguments, then have I corruptly interpreted those places. But if these arguments be not sound, if they have no sequel in them, if they be against the practice of the Church ever since it had christian Magistrates, and long before, especially for such Elders as you mean, if this kind of government in many reform Churches be not thought convenient, if it spoil the Christian Magistrate of the authority given unto him by the word of God, and finally, if it bring in confusion, then have I truly interpreted those places, and according to my duty and calling delivered them from your corruptions. But the truth of this matter shall more evidently appear in that which followeth. That which I have said of the being of Seniors in every Church, I say still: neither is that the question, for I ask the question of your Seniors, not of Ministers, (whom I call Seniors) neither did I mean that in every particular parish, there was such a Signiory, but in every chief City, nor that it was at all times in persecution, and where there was no Christian Magistrate, but ometimes: neither that this kind of government must be in such times, but that it may be. And therefore you had done well, if you had not been so sparing of your proofs, for all my grant. ¶ Whether the government by Seniors aught to be perpetual. Chap. 2. the first Division. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the second point, wherein the question especially lieth, which is, whether this function be perpetual, and aught to remain always in the Church. And it is to be observed by the way, that whereas there are divers sorts of adversaries to this discipline oh the Church, M. Doctor is amongst the worst. For there be that say, that this order may be used or not used now, at the liberty of the Churches: But M. Doctor saith that this order is not for these times, but only for those times when there were no Christian Magistrates, and so doth flatly pinch at those Churches, which having Christian Magistrates, yet notwithstanding retain this order still. Io. Whitgifte. I say so still, and I am able to defend my saying, against all that you have showed to the contrary. And yet do I not pinch at any Church that useth it (if there be any such) so that they have the consent of the civil Magistrate, who may if he will departed from his right, & abridge himself of the authority committed unto him by God. But he need not so do except he list: and whether it be well done or not, I will not determine: this I am well assured of, that in a Monarchy, & in a kingdom such as this Realm of England is, it can not be practised, without untolerable contention, & extreme confusion: except you could devise to make every several parish a kingdom within itself, and exempt it from all ecclestastical & civil jurisdiction, of Prince, Prelate, & whomsoever? which undoubtedly may seem to be your seeking, as will appear hereafter. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. ult. & Pag. 140. Sect. 1 And to the end that the vanity of this distinction, which is, that there aught to be Seniors or Ancients in the times of persecution, & not of peace: under tyrants, & not under christian Magistrates may appear: the cause why these Seniors or ancients were appointed in the Church; is to be considered, which must needs be granted to be, for that the Pastor not being able to oversee all himself, & to have his eyes in every corner of the church, & places where the Churches abode, might be helped of the Ancients. Wherein the wondered love of God towards his church doth manifestly appear, that for the greater assurance of the salvation of his, did not content himself to appoint one only ourseer of every church, but many over every church. And therefore seeing that the Pastor is now in the time of peace, and under a christian Magistrate not able to oversee all himself, nor his eyes can not be in every place of the parish present to behold the behaviour of the people, it followeth that as well now as in the time of persecution, as well under a christian Prince, as under a tyrant, the office of an Ancient or Senior is required. unless you will say that God hath less care of his church, in the time of peace, and under a godly magistrate, than he hath in the time of persecution, and under a tyrant. Io. Whitgifte. I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution, when there is no christian Magistrate, not that there aught of necessity to be. God hath provided the civil Magistrate, and other gonernours, to punish and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church: who hath his officers and deputies in every place for that purpose, neither may the Pastor, or any other, to whom that charge is not committed by the civil magistrate, usurp that office unto themselves. Wherefore that cause by you alleged, is no cause at all why there should be any such Seniors, where there are christian Magistrates, neither is that kind of government any part of the Pastor's charge. The Pastor if he be a meet man, is able to oh all that, that is required of a Pastor, else might it be said (which you before denied) that God appointed offices & functions, and gave not sufficient gifts to execute & do them. Neither can it be said, that God hath esse care of his Church, when he placeth civil and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors, than when he placeth Seniors, and leaveth it destitute of Christian Mastrates. For one of the most ingular benefits that God bestoweth on his Church in this world is, that he giveth unto it christian Kings & Princes, from whose office and authority, whosoever doth detract and withdraw we any thing, iniurieth the ordinance of God, and showeth himself unthankful for so great a benefit. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1 In deed if so be the ancients in the time of persecution, & under a tyrant, had meddled with any office of a magistrate, or had supplied the room of a godly magistrate, in handling of any of those things which belonged unto him, than there had been some cause why a godly magistrate being i the church, the office of the Senior, or at the lest so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate, should have ceased. But when as the ancient neither did, nor by any manner might meddle with those things which belonged unto a magistrate, no more under a tyrant, than under a godly magistrate, there is no reason why the magistrate entering into the church, the elder should be therefore thrust out. (*) Where find you this in all the scriptures For the Elders office was to admonish severally, those that did amiss, to comfort those which he saw weak and shaking, and to have need of comfort, to assist the Pastor in ecclesiastical censures of reprehensions, sharper or milder, as the faults required, also to assist in the suspentions from the supper of the Lord, until some trial were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed himself to have offended, or else if he remained stubborn, to assist him in the excommunication. These were those things which the Elder did, which for so much as they may do as well under a christian magistrate, as under a tyrant, as well in the time of peace, as in the time of persecution, it followeth that as touching the office of Elders, there is no distinction in the times of peace and persecution, of a christian Prince, and of a tyrant. Io. Whitgifte. I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i stifie this office that you The office ascried to Seniors, 〈◊〉 the gistrate oh his authority in ecclesiastical matters. here appoint unto Seniors. In so weighty a matter in my judgement you should have done well to have used some authority of scripture, or other ancient writer. The Admonition saith, that the office of Seniors was to govern the Church with the rest of the ministers, to consult, to admo shilling, to correct, & to order all things appertaining to the state of the congregation: Which if it be true, I pray you what authority remaineth to the civil Magistrate in ecclesiastical and Church matters? In d ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church & the common wealth, the ci ill Magistrate & the ecclesiastical, as you do throughout your whole book, it is no mar ell though you think No more authority 〈◊〉 ed to a christian istian Magistrate, that t the Turk. the office of Seniors to be perpetual. For you give no more authority to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiastical government, than you would do to the Turk, if you were under him. And therefore according to your platform, the government of the Church is all one under a christian Magistrate, and under the great Turk. But to l ave the Admonition: what have you spoken of the office of Seniors, which is not either proper to the Pastor, or common to all Christians, or such as may be much better brought to pass, by the authority of the civil Magistrate, than by the ignorance, simplicity, and rudeness of the most of your Seniors? But first let us hear more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to utter the absurdity of your cause. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst. But I will yet come nearer. That without the which the principal offices of charity cannot be exercised, is necessary and always to be kept in the Church: but the office of Ancients & Elders are such as without which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised, therefore it followeth that this office is necessary. That the principal offices of charity cannot be exercised without this order of Ancients, it may appear, for that he which hath faulted, and amendeth not after he be admonished once pri ately, and then before one witness or two, cannot further be proceeded against, Math. 18. according to the commandment of our saviour Christ, unless there be in the Church Ancients d Elders, therefore this principal office of charity which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not profited by those two former admonitions, can not be exercised without them. For it is commanded of our saviour Christ, that in such a case when a brother doth not profit by these two warnings, it should be told the Church. Now I would ask who be meant by the Church here, if he say by the Church, are meant all the people, than I will ask how a man can conveniently complain to all the whole congregation, or how can the whole congregation conveniently meet to decide of this matter. I do not deny but the people have an interest in the excommunication, as shall be noted hereafter, but the matter is not so far come, for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church, or ever they can proceed so far. Well, if it be not the people that be meant by the Church. who is it? I hear M. Doctor say it is the Pastor, but if he will say so, & speak so strangely, he must warrant it with some other places of scripture, where the Church is taken for one, which is as much to say as one man is many, one member is a body, one alone is a company. And besides this strangeness of speech, it is clean contrary to the meaning of our saviour Christ, and destroyeth the sovereignty of the medicine which our saviour Christ prepared for such a festered sore, as would neither be healed with priu te admonition, neither with admonition before one or two witnesses. For as the fault groweth, so our saviour Christ would have the number of those, before whom he should be checked & rebuked likewise grow. Therefore from a private admonition he rises unto the admonitian before two or three, & from them to the church, which if we should say it is but one, then to a dangerouser wound should be laid an easier plaster, & therefore our saviour doth not rise from two to one (for that were not to rise, but to fall, nor to proceed, but to go backward) but to many. Seeing then that the church here is neither the whole congregation, nor the pastor alone, it followeth that by the church here he means the pastor, with the Ancients or Elders. Or else whom can he mean? And as for this manner of speech wherein by the church is understanded the chief governors and Elders of the church, it is oftentimes used in the old Testament, from the which our saviour borrowed this manner of speaking, as in Exodus it is said, that Moses wrought his miracles before the 4. chap. people, when mention is made before, only of the Elders of the people, whom Moses had called together. And most manifestly in joshua, where it is said that he that killed a man at unwates, shall 0. chap. return unto the city until he stand before the congregation to be judged. Where by the congregation, he means the governors of the congregation, for it did not appertain to all to judge of this case. Likewise in the Chronicles, and divers other places. and therefore I conclude, that for so 1. li. 13. cha. much as those be necessary and perpetual which are spoken of in those words (tell the Church) and that under those words are comprehended the Elders or Ancients, that the Elders & ancients be necessary and perpetual officers in the church. Io. Whitgifte. Here are many words without matter, & a great thing pretended to no purpose: for the principal offices of charity, both hath been & may be well exercised without your Seniors: Dic ecclesiae interpreted. the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect prove the contrary. For it only teacheth an order how to proceed charitably in private offences, & not in public, as I have showed before. Moreover to tell the Church, is either publicly to reprove those that have been privately in that manner admonished, & will not repent, or else to complain unto such as have authority in the Church, according to that which I said before of this place, in my Answer to the Admonition. And herein you join with me, in that you take the Church there, for the chief governors of the Church, though we differ in the people. Church, for the governors of the church. For you will have it only meant of the Pastor & Seniors, and I think it signifieth more generally any, which are lawfully appointed to govern the church. But whether it be one or more that hath this authority committed unto him, it is more to tell him than it is to tell twenty besides: because he being in authority, doth bear the office of a public Magistrate, who hath power publicly to correct that which was privately committed: and therefore he that telleth one such, may well be said to tell the Church, because he telleth such a one as hath authority in the Church, and is a public person. So that he rises from private admonition to open complaint: from private witnesses, to a public Magistrate: and therefore this is to rise, not to fall, to proceed, not to go backward. But admit that more than one is understanded by the name of the Church (which I also confess) yet doth it not follow, that it should be your Signiory, which you would have in every congregation to consist of the Pastor, and some other of his parish, but rather such as Chrysostom calleth Prelates and Precedents, which are Bishops Hom. 61. in Matth. & such other chief governors. But be it that this place admitted the same sense, that you would have it to do, yet do I answer you as M. Musculus answered the Papists objecting these words in effect to the same end that you do, that is, to spoil the Christian Magistrate of his authority in ecclesiastical matters. Obijciunt illud Christi, dic Musc. tit. de Magist. in lo. om . ecclesiae: Et, si ecclesiam non audierit, sit tibi velut Ethnicus & Publicanus. Respondeo, Ecclesiae dei tum Magistratu pio ac fideli d stituebantur. etc. They object (saith he) that place of Christ, Dic ecclesiae: tell the Church: and if he hear not the Church, let him be to thee as an heathen and publican. I answer, The Churches of God were then destitut of a godly and faithful Magistrate: wherefore the judgements between brethren & brethren were exercised by Seniors in an ecclesiastical assembly, as it was also usual in christian Churches planted by the Apostles. But there is a far divers condition of those Churches which by the benefit of God have obtained Princes and christian Magistrates, who have the chiefty, power, the making of laws, and government, not only in profane matters, but also in divine. But that is a most pestilent error, whereby divers men think no otherwise of the christian Magistrate, than of a profane government, whose authority is to be acknowledged only in profane matters. And surely you do not one jot in this point differ from the opinion of the Papists. Truth it is, that the place of Matthew may be understanded of Seniors: but it may as well be understanded of any other that by the order of the church have authority in the Church. And seeing that it admitteth divers interpretations (as it doth) there can no such platform of necessity be grounded upon it. Moreover when Christ said, Dic Ecclesiae, there was no christian Church established, but he speaketh according to the state of the jews Church that then was under the Heathenish Magistrates: as he also doth when he saith: If thy brother Matth. 5. trespass against thee etc. leave thy offering before the altar. etc. And to this doth M. Calvin agree in his Harmony expounding the same place. And surely as of this place you may not conclude, that in the Church of Christ there aught to be such offerings and altars, so may you not on the other place conclude, that there aught always to be Seniors. Nay much less this, than the other: for this is doubtful, and the other is plain. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 141. Lin. 11. & Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Furthermore S. Paul having entreated throughout the whole first epistle to Timothy, of the orders which aught to be in the church of God, & of the government, as himself witnesseth in the hird 1. Tim. 6. chapter of that Epistle, when he says he written that Epistle to teach Timothy how he should behave himself in the house of God) and having set forth both Bishop, & Elder, and Deacons, as ministers and officers of the Church, in the shutting up of his Epistle he for the observation of all the orders of that Epistle, adjureth Timothy, & with the invocation of the name of God straightly charges him to observe those things which he had prescribed in that epistle, I charge thee says he) before God which quickn th' all things, and before jesus Christ which witnessed under Pontius Pilate a good profession, that thou keep this commandment without spot or blemish, until the appearing of our Lord jesus Christ. The weight of which sentence for the observing of those things which are mentioned in this epistle, that it may be the better understanded, I will note the words severally. First therefore it is to be noted, that he says (I denounceor I charge) he doth not say (I exhort or give counsel) leaving it to the liberty of Timothy. Secondarily it is to be noted, that he calleth (*) This cannot be true as shall be declared. the whole Epistle a commandment, and therefore it is no permission, so that it may be lawful for the churches to leave it, or to keep it. Thirdly, when he maketh mention of e living God, & of Christ which witnessed a good profession under Pontius Pilate, he showeth that the things contained in this Epistl are such, as for the maintenance thereof we aught not to doubt to give our lives, and that they be not such as we aught to keep, so that we have them without strife & without sweat, or easily, but such as for the keeping of them, if we have them, and for the obtaining of them if we have them not, I will not say ur honours, or our commodi ies and wealth, but as I have said, our lives ought not to be dear unto us. For therefore doth he make mention of the confession of Christ unto death that he might show us an example, and forthwith speaketh of God, which raiseth from the dead, that by this means he might comfort Timothy if he should be brought into any trouble for the de ense of any of these things. Fourthly, if we refer those words without spot or blemish unto the commandment (as I for my part think they aught to be) then there is a weight in these words not to be passed over, which is, that the Apostle will not only have the rules here contained, not trodden under the feet, or broken in pieces, but he will not have them so much as in any one small point or speck neglected. But I see how M. Doctor will wipe away all this, and say that these things, or some of them were to be observed thus necessarily and precisely until there were christian princes and peace in the church, but the print is deeper than that it will be so washed away, and therefore it is to be observed, what he saith in the latter end of the sentence, where he charges Timothy, and in him all, that he should keep all these things, not until the time of peace, or to the times of christian princes, but even until the coming or appearing of our saviour Christ, which is as long as the world lasteth. And therefore I conclude that the Signors or Elders of the Church (being a part of that order and government of the Church, which S. Paul appointeth in this Epistle) are necessary, perpetual, and by no means to be changed. Io. Whitgifte. All this is but to blind the eyes of the Reader, being indeed without all pith & ground. The office of Seniors not mentioned in the. 1. Tim. much less commanded. For first where hath the Apostle in all that Epistle spoken one word of the office of your Seniors, which you distinguish from a minister of the word? where doth he give any such commandment concerning his office? Where doth he prescribe any such for me or kind of government? if he keep silence in this matter thr ugh the whole epistle, how dare you presume to say that to be commanded which is not mentioned, & to make so much ado about nothing? surely if this kind of government had been so necessary, & for ever to be bserued, S. Paul would not have omitted it in this Epistle especially. You say that he hath set forth, in that Epistle the office of an elder: if by an elder you mean a Bishop or a Pastor, it is true. If you mean your own elder, such as must govern only & neither preach nor minister the sacraments, it is very untrue: and you have no conscience in speaking untruth: for he speaketh not one word of that signior or of his office. If you reply or object that which is written. 1. Tim. 5. qui bene praesunt 〈◊〉. etc. I answer as I did before, that by presbyter in that place he means such as be in the ministery, and no other. If he do mean any other, yet doth he not describe the office of that Senior, neither giveth any precept of his continuance, or rule of any such kind of mennt: & therefore cannot be included in that precept which you so greatly amplify: for the words of the Apostle be these, ut serves hoc praeceptum, so that you have laboured much to prove a thing that is not, and therefore you have laboured in vain. Secondly, The whole epistle to 〈◊〉. . s not that commandment. you cannot extend these words of the Apostle to the whole Epistle, as though it were given generally of the whole, and of every thing therein contain d: for than must you of necessity bring in widows and their office into the Church again: because the Apostle doth not only describe their office in that epistle, but also giveth direct precepts of them, & so doth he not of your Seniors. Likewise his precept of drinking wine, which he giveth there also, must of necessity be observed of all ministers, which have the like infirmity. These and such other gross absurdities must of necessity follow, if you will have all things in that Epistle necessarily for ever to be observed, and the whole epistle to be that commandment, that the Apostle here enjoineth to Timothy. cap. 6. Neither can I perceive that any learned interpreter doth refer this commandment Whereunto that commandment is referred. to any other things contained in this Epistle, than to those only that do appertain to the pastoral office of Timothy: and some there be, that restrain it to those things only which are before spoken of in this. 6. chapter, & especially to the precept against covetousness. Chrysostom expounding this place saith thus: What is it to keep the commandment pure? Vt neque vitae, neque dogmatum gratia aliquid maculae contra as, Chrysostom. Caluine. That neither in respect of life or doctrine thou have any spot. To conclude M. Calvin interpreting it, saith on this sort: By this word commandment, he signifieth those things which he had hitherto spoken of the office of Timothy: whereof this is the sum, that he should show himself a faithful minister to Christ & to the church. For what need is there to extend this to the whole law? except peradventure some m had rather to take this simply for the function committed unto him: for when we are appointed ministers of the church, God doth therewith prescribe unto us what he would have us to do. So that servare mandatum, to keep the commandment is nothing else, but faithfully to execute the office committed unto him: surely I do wholly refer it to the ministery of Timothy. Whereby it is evident, that under this commandment every thing in this epistle is not contained, but that only which doth appertain to the office of Timothy. That which followeth (immaculatus & irreprehensibilis) according to the most and best interpreters, is referred to Timothy, & not to the commandment, contrary to your judgement: wherefore I also conclude, that nothing in this Epistle maketh one jot for your Signiory. Chap. 2. the sixth Division. T. C. Pag. 141. Sect ult. So that we have not only now the 〈◊〉 of all the primi i've churches (which aught to move us if there were no commandment) but we have also a strait commandment, I say the only examples aught to move us, for what way can we s felyer follow than the common high way, beaten & trodden by steps of all the Apostles, & of all the churches? Things also grounded, & being preserved by the same means by the which they were engendered, why should we think but that the churches now will prospero by the government, whereby it first came up? But I say we have not only the examples of the churches, but we have also commandment & strait charge to keep this office of elders and ancients in the church, & therefore it is not only rashness in leaving the way that the Apostles, & churches by the apostles advise have go, but disobedience also to departed from their commandment, & to maintain & defend that we may do so, I can almost give it no gentler name than rebellion. Io. Whitgifte. Examples of churches there may be some, but not of your kind of Seniors. Precept & commandment for this kind of government, there is not one in the whole scripture, or any other approved authority. For I have before showed how little the authority serve h your purpose, the which you would have us think to be so express a commandment. Wherefore it is no rebellion to disallow of your order in the time of Christian magistrates, but it is rebellion to contend for it, to the abridging of that authority that God hath to Christian Princes committed. Chap. 2. the seventh Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. etc. I know that in the primitive church they had in every church certain Seniors, to whom the government of the congregation was committed, but that was before there was any Christian Prince or magistrate that openly professed the Gospel, and before there was any Church by public authority established, or under Civil government: I told you before, that the diversity of time and state . of the church requireth diversity of government in the same. It can not be governed in time of prosperity, as it is in time of persecution: It may not be governed under a Christian Prince, which doth nourish and maintain it, as it may be under a Tyrant, when it is constrained to 〈◊〉 and seek corners. It can not be governed in a w owl realm, as it may be in one little city or town: it cannot be governed when it is dispersed through many places, as it may be when it is collected into some one narrow and certain place: To be short, it can not be governed when it is full of hypocrites, Papists, Atheis s, and other wicked people, as when it hath very few or none such: as commonly it hath not in time of persecution, when the gold is as it were by fire tried from the dross. He that according to this diversity of the form, state, & time of the church, doth not allow a diversity of government, doth confounded and not edify. I pray you what Seniors could you have in most parishes in England fit for that office? But wise, not wilful men, have to consider this: God hath given the chief government of his church, to the christian magistrate, who hath to consider what is most convenient: and we must therewith be content, so that nothing be done against faith, and the commandment of God. TC. Pag. 142. Sect. 1 Now I will come to M. Doctor's reasons which he hath in the hundredth & fourteen, and a hundred and fifteen pages, where he granteth that there were elders in every Church in times past, but says that it aught not now so to be. For says he, the times altar the government, and it cannot be governed in the time of prosperity, as in the time of persecution, under a christian prince as under a tyrant. Thus he saith, but showeth no reason, bringeth no proof, declareth not how nor why prosperity will not bear the elders, as well as persecution, neither why they may not be under a godly prince as well as under a tyrant, five less this be a reason, that because the godly prince doth nourish the church as a civil Magistrate, therefore the Ancients may not nourish it as ecclesiastical overseers Io. Whitgifte. My reason why it may not be governed under a Christian Prince, as it may The Church may no be governed under 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant. under a tyrant, is this: God hath given the chief authority in the government of his church to the Christian magistrate, which could not so be if your signory might as well retain their authority under a Christian Prince, and in the time of peace, as under a tyrant, and in the time of persecution. For tell me I pray you what authority ecclesiastical remaineth to the civil Magistrate, where this signory is established? But that the Reader may understand this not to be my judgement alone, but the judgement also of famous learned men, & the practice of w ll reform churches. I thought good in this place before I proceed any further, to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualther, touching this matter. Musculus in his common places, titulo de Magistratibus, affirmeth, that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 time, the Musculus. churches were ruled by Seniors, yet they may not so be under christian rulers and Magistrates, who have authority not in civil matters only, but in ecclesiastical also. His words I have recited before. M. Gualther in his commentaries upon. 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. division. doth at large entreat of this matter: whose words because they have pith in them, and proceed from him which is both learned and godly, and of great experience, I will reher e them as I find them. There are also others which although they have true christian princes, and want no laws whereby licentious manners are corrected, yet they say they need an ecclesiastical senate, Gualther. in. 1. Cor. 5. which might punish every man, and have authority also over Princes, that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper (if they have given any public offence) & not to admit them again unto the fellowship of the Church, but upon their allowance after public satisfaction. And if any man do contrary them in their opinion, by and by they cry out upon him as the enemy of all discipline, & as one unworthy to have any place in the Church: as though there could no other form of discipline be appointed, but that which they have invented. But they must pardon us, and let them not condemn us rashly, which do descent from them not without good reason. You see therefore how your Signiory and kind of government is liked, even of zealous and godly ministers of reform churches. Neither do I remember that I ever read any author that doth of necessity require it: scripture (I know) you have none for it. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Now seeing M. Doctor can show us no cause why they may not as well be now, as in the time of the Apostles, as well under a Christian prince s under a Tyrant, I will show him that although they be always necessary, yet there is better cause why they should rather be now, than in the Apostles times, greater necessity under a Christian prince, than under a tyrant. First of all in the Apostles times it is known that the gifts of the spirit of wisdom, discretion, knowledge, enduring of travail, were poured forth more plentifully, then ever they were either before, or shall be after. By reason whereof, the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then, were (I speak generally, and of the estate of the whole Church) better furnished with the gifts needful for their ministery, than are the ministers of these days. Whereupon I conclude that if the aid and assistance of the Pastor, by the Elders, was thought necessary by the Apostles in those times, when the ministers were so well, and so richly replenished with such gifts, much more is that aid and assistance meet for the ministers of these days, wherein their gifts of discretion, & knowledge, and diligence are not so plentiful. For if they whose eye sight was so clear to perceive, whose hands so nimble to execute, had need for their aid, of other eyes and other hands, than the ministers now, whose eyes are dimmer, and hands heavier than there's were, have much more need of this aid than they had. Io. Whitgifte. This reason is answered two ways, and that briefly: The first is, because there is not at this time in every congregation so meet men, for that office of Seniors, as there was then: for God hath not now so plentifully poured the gifts of the spirit of wisdom, discretion, knowledge. etc. upon so many in every congregation according to your own confession, as he did then: and therefore nothing so easy to fiad in every congregation meet men to govern▪ a it was then. Secondly, the civil and Christian The civil ma gistrate a better help to the minister, than the Seniors. Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now, that Seniors had them, and much more, for he may punish with corporal punishment, and so could not they: he may compel and coustrayne, and so could not they: so that the Pastor may be much better aided and assisted in doing his duty, and in suppressing vice by the authority of the Christian Magistrate, than he either was then or could be now by the Seniors. Therefore this reason of yours is no reason at all, but maketh directly against you, if it be well considered. Chap. 2. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 142. Sect. 3. 4. Again if S. Paul did charge the persecuted, and therefore poor churches, with the finding and providing for the Seniors in every Church (as it appeareth in that Epistle to Timothy, where 1. Epistle. 5. he saith that Elders which rule well, are worthy double honour, whereby he signifieth a plentiful reward, and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their households, as when he biddeth that the widow which served the Church in attending upon the sick, and upon the strangers, should be honoured, that is, have that wherewith she might honestly and soberly live) if I say S. Paul would charge the churches then with maintaining the Elders, which being poor, were The question is not of the abilirie to found Seniors, but of the necesti ie of ha' ing them. not sometimes able to live without some relief from the Church, because they were compelled oftentimes to leave their own affairs to wait of the affairs of the Church, how much more aught there now to be Seniors, when the churches be in peace, and therefore not so poor, & when there may be choose such for the most part throughout the real e, as are able to live without charging the Church any whit, as the practice of these days doth manifestly declare. And if S. Paul that was so desirous to have the Gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is free and without charges as much as is possible, and soloth to lay any burden upon the churches, especially those which were poor, did notwithstanding enjoin the maintenance of the Elders, unto the churches poor and persecuted, how much more shall we think, that his mind was that the churches which live in peace, and are rich, and may have this office without charge, aught to receive this order of ancients. Io. Whitgifte. This is a poor and feeble reason: the Church found Seniors in the time of persecution, Ergo, there aught rather to be Seniors under a Christian prince than in the time of persecution. Or this: the Church is now better able to find Seniors, Ergo, it aught now rather to be governed by Seniors. You may make the same reasons also for widows and diaconisses, and as well induce the necessity of them. But we ask not what the Church was able to do then, or what it is able to do now, but whether the same government aught to be now that was then: and whether a Christian magistrate have no more authority in the government of the Church now, than the heathenish and persecuting magistrate had then. Although if you consider the ability of some Parishes, and the unwillingness of other some, you shall found that they be hardly able or willing to find a fit Pastor, much less would they be able or willing to find a number of Seniors besides their Pastor. The place of S. Paul 1 Tim. 5. is untruly alleged for your purpose, for the Apostle means of the Minister in every congregation, and not of any number of Seniors, as I have before declared. Neither have yond one place of Scripture to warrant your interpretation, or application of that place. God hath much better provided for his church, by placing in it civil and Christian God hath provided better for his church by giving chri stian magistrates, then by Seniors. magistrates, whose authority is so ample & large, than by placing Seniors: wherefore where Christian magistrates be, the government of Seniors is superfluous, and the Church may not be burdened with unnecessary and unprofitable charges: neither may the authority which God hath given to the Christian magistrate, be writhe out of his hand, by a rude company of Seniors in several parishes. Chap. 2. the tenth Division. T. C. Pag. 142. the last line. etc. Moreover those that belearned know, that the government of the Church which was in the Apostles times, being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections & other things popular: partly in respect of the Pastors and Ancients Aristocratical, that is the rule of the best: I say they know that these governments do easily decline into their contraries, and by reason thereof both the government of those which were most virtuous might easily be changed into the government of few of the richest, or of greatest power, and the popular estate might easily pass to a confused tumult. Now this incommodity were they more subject unto under a tyrant, than under a godly prince. For they had no civil magistrate, which might correct and reform those declinings when they happened. For the tyrants did not know of it, and if they have known of it, they would have been glad to see the churches go to wrack: therefore now we have a godly civil magistrate which both will and ought to remedy such declinations and conversions of good government into evil, it followeth that this estate and government by Ancients, is rather to be used under a Christian prince than under a tyrant. Io. Whitgifte. Those that be learned know, that the government of the church is neither populare, nor The government of the church monar chicall. Aristocratical▪ (as it is before declared where you have affirmed the like) but a Monarchy. For in every particular church where there is a christian Magistrate, he is chief and principal over the rest: and you yourself confess, that the Pastor is the chief of the Signiory, which aught not to be if the state were either Popular, or Aristocratical. Of the universal church only Christ is the head and chief, and therefore the state of it is Monarchical. But of the state and kind of government of Tract. 8. the church in every kingdom or province, I have particularly, and at large spoken in the treatise of Archbishops. I shall not need to will the Reader once again to mark how you bend your force against a Monarchy. For your principle is, that the government of the common wealth C. T. bendeth his force against a monarchy. must be framed according to the government of the church: And therefore it may not be a kingdom, but rather a Popular estate, or Aristocratical, because the government of the Church (as you say) is so. But be it as you would have it: what then? Forsooth it may easylyer decline from a popular estate to a confused tumult, and from an Aristocratical state to the government of a few, when there is no Christian Magistrate, than when there is a Christian magistrate, therefore it is more meet for the government of the Church, to be populare or Aristocratical under a Christian Magistrate, than under a tyrant. first, I deny your argument as being void of all sense and reason. Secondly, I say that no Christian Magistrate is bond to suffer in his dominion, so many several and distinct kinds of government: and to have one kind of government in the Church, and an other in the common wealth, seeing that God hath committed the chief care of them both to one and the self same person. Thirdly, I deny your antecedent: that is, that a popular or Aristocratical qinde of governing the church doth more easily decline into their contaries under a tyrant than under a Christian magistrate: for men being in persecution, and in daily expectation of death, are not so desirous to procure unto themselves authority & dominion, as they be in the time of peace and prosperity, Moreover under a tyrant and in the time of persecution, those that be appointed governors of the Church, be but for a time only, and during the pleasure of such as appointed them, and therefore can not usurp any unlawful jurisdiction over the rest against their wills. In such times of the Church rather disobedience and stubborness in the common sort, than tyranny or oppression in the governors, is to be feared. Surely you would fain have reason for your popular cause, if you could tell where to find it. And let the Reader note the might of this your reason: the popular and Aristocratical kind of government may more easily decline to their contraries under a tyrant than under a Christian magistrate: therefore the government of the church must be popular or Aristocratical rather under a Christian magistrate, than under a tyrant. Nowsoever the antecedent is true, there is no sequel in the argument. For under a tyrant necessity doth drive the Church oftentimes to one of these two kinds of government, but when there is a Christian Magistrate, God hath appointed it to be subject to him. Chap. 2. the eleventh Division. T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 1 Besides this, in the time of persecution all assemblies of divers together were dangerous, & put them all in hazard of their life which did make those assemblies, & therefore if the pastor alone might have ordered and determined of things pertaining to the church by himself, it had been less danger to him, & more safety for others of the church. And therefore if the seniors were then thought mere to govern the church, when they could not come together to exercise their functions without danger, much more aught they to be under a Christian prince, when they may meet together without danger. Io. Whitgifte. These be the homeliest reasons that ever I heard, & the lightest to be used in so weighty a matter. For first, the Seniors might as safely meet together in the time of persecution, to exercise discipline, as the whole church to hear the word of God & to pray. Secondly, it was not so dangerous for four or five to meet together. Thirdly, no danger aught to be feared when a man seeketh to do his duty. Fourthly, what kind of reason call you this? the Seniors may with less danger meet together to execute their fuuctions under a Christian Prince than under a tyrant: therefore there aught rather to be Seniors under a Christian prince than under a tyrant. I stately deny the argument. For under a tyrant the church must have that kind of government, that it may most conveniently enjoy, with what danger so ever it be joined: under a Christian Magistrate it must be subject to his authority, and governed by him, seeing that God hath commmitted unto him the chief care & government thereof: Wherefore the office of Seniors is nothing necessary where there is a Christian magistrate, but it is usurpation rather of the office of the Magistrate, and a detracting from his authority: neither hath God in any place of the Scriptures commanded obedience to those your Seniors, or described their office: but he hath done both expressly, touching the civil Magistrate. Chap. 2. the. 12. Division. T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 2. M. Doctor proceedeth and saith, it can not be governed in a whole realm, as it may be in a city or town. This government by Seniors is not only in one city, but also hath been of late throughout the whole realm of France, where there were any churches: and M. Doctor confesseth, that it was in all the prinutive Churches, and therefore not only in one realm, but almost throughout the whole world: and therefore the large spreading of the Church, can not hinder it. So that the difference lieth still in the peace and persecution of the church, and not in the capacity and largeness of the place where the churches abide. So might one reason against the lawful estate of a Monarchy: for he might say that although the rule of one be needful and convement in a household, yet it is not convenient in a town, and although it be convenient in a town, yet it is not in a city, and although in a city, yet not in a realm. Io. Whitgifte. If you will so divide these several cities, and Churches in one kingdom, that they be not under one governor, ruled by the same laws, members of one kingdom, but every one of them as it were a common wealth within itself, (as it is in Scon spoil 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. several Churches within one kingdom in the time of persecution) than it is true that you say, and in this case were the primitive Churches, and so were the Churches in France. But when as all the Towns and Churches in one kingdom, be subject as well in causes Ecclesiastical as civil, to one prince, ruled by the same laws etc. then can you not establish this your Signiory without great confusion, and untolerable injury to the minister of God: I mean the Christian Magistrate. The authority of the Master of the household over his family derogateth nothing from the authority of the Prince, but doth confirm and establish it rather. But the authority of your Seniors in every congregation, spoileth the prince of his jurisdiction, and maketh him subject where he aught to be ruler, and therefore your reason is not like. Chap. 2. the. 13. Division. T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 3 To be short says he, when he can say no more, it cannot be governed when it is full of hypocrites Papists, Atheists, and other wicked people, as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such. I have showed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth, to say that Papists and Atheists be of the Church, and I love not as M. Doctor both to use often reperition, but if there be now more hypocrites and other wicked and unruly people in the Church, than there were in the time of persecution (which I will not deny) then there is greater cause noro why there should be Seniors in every Church, than there was then when there were fewer. For the more naughty people, and the greater disorders there be, the more aid and help hath the pastor need to have both to found out their disorders, and also when they have found them out, to judge of the quality of them, and after also to correct them with the censutes of the Church, which standeth in such reprehensions private and open, and excommunication, as I have before rehearsed. Io. Whitgifte. What M. Doctor was able to say more, was unknown to you. If he would allege as vain reasons as you do, and spend paper in uttering his own fancies without either scripture or other authorities, as your usual manner is, he would at the lest have seemed to say much, as you do, who indeed say nothing at all. I say again that there be in the Church, that is, in the external society of the Tract. 3 cap. 6 divisi. 2. &. 4. The Magistrate may better 〈◊〉 offenders, than the Semors. Gual. 1. cor. . Church, both Papists, Atheists, drunkards. etc. and your denial of it I have showed before to be vain. I say further that those and such like offenders, may best be reform by the civil Magistrate, and by corporal punishment: as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them. For as M. Gualther saith: They which cannot be brought into order by the authority of a lawful magistrate, and by laws, will much less suffer themselves to be punished by the commandment of Seniors, or of an Ecclesiastical senate, whom with all their solemnity they will laugh to scorn. Chap. 2. the. 14. Division. T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. &. ult. afterward he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parish in England fit for that office? he asketh the same question in the. 133. page, where he also addeth Pastors, ask where may be got such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require, when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth. Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church, because fit men are not to be got in all parishes: it followeth by M. Doctor's reason, that for as much as we have not fit and able Pastors for every Church, that therefore we aught to have no able Pastor in any Church. And if he will grant that we aught to have able Pastors in as many places as they may be got: how can he deny that we should have Elders in those Churches where fit men may be had. Io. Whitgifte. The question is necessary and cannot be so shifted of: But you are still like unto Difference between the necessity of Pastors and of Seniors. yourself. The reason of having Pastors & of having Seniors is nothing like: For the office of a Pastor is perpetual, so is not the office of your Senior. Pastors be necessary in the Church of Christ, as well for the administration of the sacraments, as for the preaching of the word, and other Eccelesiastical functions: so be not Seniors. The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures, but commanded also: show where the office of your Senior is so. The office of a Pastor derogateth nothing from the authority of the Christian Magistrate: but the office of your Seniors spoileth him of the one half, and in a manner of the whole, as shall hereafter more plainly appear. Wherefore this may well be true, that although such Pastors as are to be wished cannot be provided for every place, yet there must be such as may be conveniently come by. But the same is not true in Seniors, being neither necessary, nor (where a Chistian Magistrate is) profitable, but the contrary. And these reasons will serve to deny that of Seniors, which we grant of Pastors, seeing the office of a Pastor is commanded as necessary and perpetual: and not the office of a Senior. Chap. 2. the. 15. Division. T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2. And I say further, where we have an express commandment laid upon us to do a thing, there all disputations must cease, of hardness, of impossibility, of profit, or else of peace. For first God hath not commanded any orders in his Church, which are impossible, and if they seem hard, it must be remembered, that the best and excellentest things are hardest, and that there is nothing so hard, which diligence and travail to bring it to pass, will not overcome: which thing if it be proved true in worldly affairs, the truth thereof will much more appear in the matters pertaining unto God, considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters, which are otherwise hard to be compassed, he will in his own matters and matters pertaining to his glory, fill up the valleys, although they be never so low, bring down the hilies, although they be never so high, plain the ways be they never so rough, so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh, a way tracked and easy to go in, and to walk towards that kingdom, whereunto he calleth us. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words of course to no purpose. For first you should have proved The office of 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 come . that the office of your Seniors is commanded, which I utterly deny. Then should you have declared that the same commandment is perpetual: for many things are commanded in the new testament, which be not perpetnall, as the washing of feet, john. 13. to abstain à sanguine & suffocat . Act. 15. to elect and choose widows, to 〈◊〉. 13. 〈◊〉. 15. . 〈◊〉. 5. minister in the Church. 1. Timo. 5. and such like. So that you have craftily passed over two principal points, and those which ought to be the grounds of your cause. first therefore I deny that this office of Saeniors is commanded any where in the new Testament: then I say that if it were commanded, yet is it but a tempor ill commandment. Those two points not being by you proved, the words you utter are but in vain. Chap. 2. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15. Besides that, I answer wheresoever there is a Church, there are the riches of the spirit of God, there is with knowledge, discretion, and wisdom, and there are such as S. Paul calleth wise and can discern and judge. And we see that when men are called to a lawful and profit profitable calling, and especially to a public calling, God doth pour on his gifts of that person which is so called so plentifully that he is as it were suddenly made a new man, which if he d'ye in the wicked as Saul was, there is no doubt but he will do it in those which are with the testimony 1. Sam. 10. of the church, & with experience of their former godly behaviour, choose to such offices of weight. So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey God's commandment, and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed, but our own either negligence and slothfulness, or fearfulness or ambition or some other leaven which we nourish within ourselves. Io. Whitgifte. This lacketh prose: for sometimes the church of God is, where there is neither good Pastor, nor meet governor, as in the time of Elias. And though God sometimes bestow his gifts upon the person that is called to a lawful and a public function as he did upon Saul, yet doth he not always so. God doth not of necessity tie his graces to God bestoaweth his gifts by means. offices: for as he in the beginning of his church miraculously bestowed his gifts: so doth he now leave the same, by outward means in part to be obtained, as by education, learning, instruction, reading, studying. etc. which means being neglected, God doth of his justice permit evil Magistrates and officers, which he also sometimes doth for the offences of the people, as may be seen in the most part of the kings of juda, and of jerusalem, and almost in all christian princes and governors under the Pope's tyranny: For I suppose you mean such gifts as be profitable for the Church. Surely if this were true that you here so boldly without proof affirm, than should it not much skill what kind of men were choose to be either Pastors, or Magistrates, for howsoever they were before furnished with gifts, yet when they be once The absurdity of the R ply. called, God will miraculously pour upon them gifts necessary, though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole country. Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do? but I think the Reader understandeth, that God now worketh by ord narie means, not by miracles. And though it be certain that God doth endue magistrates, such as fear him with singular gifts, yet doth he it by means as is said, and it is not at all times so, nor in all people, but when, where, and in whom it pleaseth him. Therefore to ground any general doctrine upon singular examples: or to establish an external kind of government upon God's inward and secret working: to bind God unto that of necessity, that he doth bestow of grace and mercy: to make that common to all, which he of his infinite wisdom bestoweth upon some: is not the part of a skilful divine. But to let all this pass: you do still petere principium, and take that as granted, which you cannot prove, that is, that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commandment of God, and not to be altered: which I for my part can never grant unto you, except you have more pithy reasons to prove it, than any that you have as yet uttered. Chap. 2. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. &. Sect. 1. 2. It is true, that we aught to be obedient unto the civil magistrate, which governeth the church of God in that office which is committed unto him, and according to that calling. But it must be remembered, that 〈◊〉 magistrates must governs it according to the rules of God prescribed in his word, and that as they are nourises, so they be servants unto the church, and as they rule in the church, so they must remember to subject themselves unto the church, to submit their sceptres, to throw down their crowns, before the church: yea as the prophet speaketh, to lick Esay. 49. the dust of the feet of the church. Wherein I mean not, that the church doth either wring the sceptres out of princes hands, or taketh their crowns from their heads, or that it requireth princes to lick the dust of her feet (as the pope under this pretence hath done) but I mean as the prophet means, that what soever magnificence or excellency, or pomp, is either in them, or in their estates and common wealths, which doth not agreed with the simplicity and (in the judgement of the world) poor and contemptible estate of the Church, that that they will be content to lay down. And here cometh to my mind, that wherewith the world is now dec ived, and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceive himself & others too, in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth, and the Church government according to the vill government, (*) A dangerous doctrine. which is as much to say, as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeed it is clean contrary, that as the hangings are made fit for the house, so the common wealth must be made to agreed with the Church, and the government thereof with her government. For as the house is before the hangings, and therefore the hangings which come after, must be framed to the house which was before: so the Church being before there was the common wealth, and the common wealth coming after, must be fashioned and made suitable unto the Church. Otherwise God is made to give place to men, heaven to earth, and religion is made (as it were) a rule of Lesbian, to be applied unto any estate of common wealth whatsoever. Seeing (*) An obscu e, and deformed argument. that good men, that is to say, the Church are as it were the foundation of the world, it is meet that the common wealth which is builded upon that foundation, should be framed according to the Church, and therefore those voices aught not to be herded, this order will not agreed with our common wealth, that law of God is not for our state, this form of government will not match with the policy of this realm. Io. Whitgifte. These words would be well considered, for they contain the overthrow of the The overthrow of the princes autho ritie contained in the Reply. prince's authority both in ecclesiastical and civil matters. But I will only give a brief note of them in this place, meaning to set forth this matter more at large elsewhere. When he says that the civil magistrate must govern according to his calling, and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word. etc. although the words be true, et if you mark upon what occasion they be spoken, you shall perceive the venom that lieth hide under them: for he doth thereby insinuate, that the civil Magistrate may not intermeddle with the office of the Senior, that is, with ecclesiastical jurisdiction, for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose: which is to be reave the civil Magistrate of his authority, and to give that to Seniors which the Pope under the like pretence doth arrogate unto himself. And therefore w ll and truly saith M. Gualther in the place before recited. Those men (meaning such as Gualther. call for Seniors when they have a Christian Magistrate) do distinguish between the Ecclesiastical and civil jurisdiction in respect of the punishment of sins, and the discipline of manners. But this distinction is taken out of the Pope's shop, and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found. For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament, that was in times passed in the old, for so much as Christ hath said that he came not to break the law, but to fulfil it: But in times past the judges and kings, had power to punish those that offended, neither did the priests or prophets thrust themselves into that business, but so far forth as pertained to admonitions and reprehensions, which they applied out of the word of God according to the quality of the offences: Therefore the same must be observed in the new Testament, neither is it needful that the ministers of the word should have a peculiar senate, or that they should challenge unto themselves by any means those things that belong to the civil Magistrate. M. Gualters' meaning is, that the ministers of the word cannot challenge the authority of pu shing vice (otherwise than by admonitions and reprehensions, that is, that they cannot challenge this kind of government of a Signiory) by the word of God, because all such authority is committed to the civil Magistrate: So that if Bishops have it, they must have it from him, as it is in this Church of England. And therefore well saith M Gualther in the same place: there may be appointed such as shall have the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinary magistrates cannot do all themselves, but those must be appointed by the magistrate, and do all at his commandment: and not usurp any distinct jurisdiction from the ordinary magistrate. The second point to be noted is, when he saith that Christian princes must subject The prince made subject to Seniors by the replier. themselves to the Church, submit their sceptres, throw down their crowns before the Church. etc. the which kind of speech, the Pope himself useth, and under the same pretence hath trodden kings under his feet. And although T. C. seem to mislike this excessive using of authority by the Pope, yet would be have the same jurisdiction to remain to his Seniors s ill, whom be understandeth by the name of the Church, as appeareth in that which he spoke before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae: so Pag. 140. in the latter end. that he would have the Prince, subject herself to the Seniors of the Church, and throw down her crown before them, that is, to be content to be ruled and governed, to be punished and corrected, to be excommunicated and absolved by their discretion, and at their pleasure. This no doubt is his meaning, neither can it otherwise be: for if this kind of government be once admitted, the Prince must needs be of some peculiar Church and congregation, and therefore subject to the Signiory of that Church, except it please master Pastor (who is the chief) and the rest of his neighbours the parishioners, to elect the Prince into the Signiory, and make him one of them: and yet must the Pastor be his superior, and have authority to call him to consultations, and to direct him in matters of discipline, and whether he will or not he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors. And yet now I remember myself, the Prince cannot be of the Signiory, for T. C. all ttle Pa. 146. sect. 1. after granteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic ll: so that indeed the Prince must be a servant no master a subject no Prince, under government no governor in matters pertaining to the Church. And lest any man should think that this is but my collection, (though it be most Gualther. true, and I will justify it so to be) I have she wed before that which M. Gualther affirmeth upon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth upon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle saying, there be some which according to the example of the old and primitive Church would have Seniors, and an Ecclesiastical senate, that should have authority over magistrates, if they at any time do not their duty. And in deed this is one of the chief causes why our men would so gladly have a Signiory: for they would gladly be in hand with magistrates to make them stoop and bow down unto them. The third point is in this, that he would have, the government of the common wealth The replier seeketh the verthrow of monarchtes. and the common wealth itself, framed to the Church, and the government thereof, as the hangings are made fit for the house, whereby as it may seem he would have all monarchies overthrown and reduced either to a popular or an Aristocratical estate: for these two kinds of government he only alloweth of, in the Church, as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twice spoken before. Now the laws of man will bear this, I know not, but I am well assured the Christ & the gospel oh enin les so 〈◊〉. law of God will not suffer it. For Christ came not to overthrow kinds of government, and civil policy, neither doth the Gospel dissolve kingdoms, for S. Peter saith. 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuivis ordinationi umanae propter dominum, sive Reg 1. 1. Pet. 2. etc. Submit yourselves unto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake, whether it be unto the king, as to the superior. And so Paul. 1. Tim. 2. to the exhort him to pray for 1. Timo. 2. kings, which he would not have done if the state of a kingdom could not agree with the state of the Church. But I will not amplify this matter. Let such consider of it, to whom it doth specially pertain. This is your reason to prove that the government of the common wealth, aught to be framed according to the government of the Church: because there was a Church before there was a common wealth: but I deny the argument: and your similitude (of house and hangings) doth not prove it. All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealths, being also the Churches of God, declare the contrary, neither can you she we any state altered in this manner, but only among the Anabaptists. Of like weyghtis your other reason, which is this: Good men, that is the Church, are as it were the foundation of the world, the common wealth is builded upon that foundation, therefore the government of the common wealth must be framed according to the government of the Church. This gear is to subtle for every body to understand: but the argument is without all fashion, and it is neither true in matter nor form. For how pr e y u that good men are the foundation of the world? The first men were grievous transgressoures, the most of them. The evil men in multitude and worldly prosperity, have from time to time in the world overgrown them. Moreover, the Church visible containeth both good and bad: and so doth the common wealth, and therefore it can not be said to be builded of good men more than of evil men. To conclude, if all this were true, yet doth not the argument follow. For the foundation giveth strength, but it giveth not the whole form or fashion to that which is builded upon it. For a man may make alterations in his house, though he do not once move or stir the foundation. And surely howsoever you will dally off these Collections upon your manifest words, similitudes, and reasons, with some devised interpretation and shift (for it will stand you in hand so to do) yet what occasion you have given thereby to the common people, and other that be contentious, to mislike of this present state and government, wise men can consider. And to tell you plain, except you have some mystical sense in them, (which I can not conceive) I see not how they can stand with your allegiance. I speak of the words as you have uttered them: I will not enter into the depth of your meaning: And I will hope the best until I understand further of your mind. Chap. 2. the. 18. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 133. Lin. 1. Neither is there any authority in the whole Bible, that enforceth or prescribeth that kind of government as necessary or convenient for all times: no more than there is to prove that in the Church there must be always such as have power to work miracles, or that have the gift of healing and such like: which offices notwithstanding are mentioned as well as governors in the first to the Cor. 12. T. C. Pag. 144. Sect. ult. Now to come again to M. Doctor's reasons, he sayeth in the. 133. page, that if they urge governors because they are spoken of in the. 1 . to the Cor. then they may aswell urge the power oh work miracles, the gift of healing. etc. for that they are likewise reckoned up in the same place. But doth not M. Doccor know, that although some things be extraordinary, and for a time, yet other some things are ordinary and to endure always? will he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinary, therefore the teachers which are there reckoned together with the gift of working miracles and of healing are extraordinary? hath he forgotten that he (in deed untruly) made before the office of Apostles & prophets and evangelists, a perpetual office, and yet they are there joined with these gifts which were but for a time, and therefore it is a very absurd argument to say, that for that some thing reckoned with governors, is for a time, and extraordinary, therefore the governors also be so. Io. Whitgifte. And how prove you, that the office of Seniors is more ordinary, or of longer continuance than the office of Apostles, Prophets, the power of working miracles, and of healing, which be in that place recited as well as those governors be, whom you call Seniors? You aught to have proved the office of Seniors to be perpetual: for that I deny and show my reason, that it can not be proved out of that place because other offices mentioned in that place to the Corinthians be temporal. But this being moste material, you pass it over, because you are not able to prove it. I have told you before in what sense there may be both Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists. And if I can not necessarily conclude, that the office of Seniors is temporal, because it is rehearsed among those offices & gifts that be temporal, much less can you conclude that it is perpetual, the most of the offices and gifts with it expressed, being temporal. Chap. 2. the. 19 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 133. Lin. 9 Well saith Musculus in his common places, tit. de Magist. Si revocas temporum illorum mores, primùm conditiones & statum quoque illorum revoca. If thou wilt use the manners of that time, first call again the condition and state of that time: That is, let us be without christian Magistrates, as they were: let us be under Tyrants and persecutors as they were. etc. T. C. Page. 145. Lin. 11. As for Musculus authority, which is, that the times do change the orders, besides that I have answered before, & besides that he doth not speak it of the Elders, I have proved that it can have no place here, for somuch as the Elders are necessary, and commanded in the scripture. Io. Whitgifte. Musculus in that place speaketh of the government of the Church, and of the authority of the civil Magistrate in matters ecclesiastical: And proveth that the government of the Church may not be now, as it was in the Apostles time. And a little before speaking of the Signiory, he affirmeth as much, as it appeareth in his words before recited. You have not as yet proved, either the office of Seniors now to be necessary, or the same to be commanded in the Scripture. Chap. 2. the. 20. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 133. in the midst. You say it is more easy for the wicked by bribing to pervert and corrupt one man, than to pervert and overthrow the faith and piety of a zealous and godly company: and therefore better the government of the Church to be committed to many, than to one. If this Retortion 〈◊〉 absurdi . reason be good, than the more there be that rule, the better is the government, and so popularis status erit optimus reipublicae status: against all both divinity and Philosophy: for we see that God himself in his common weal of Israel, did always allow the government and superiority of one over the rest, both in the time of judges, and after in the time of the Kings. And in the new Testament we may also see that kind of government most allowed of. 1. Pet. 2. But I will not here reason with you in this matter, and call that into question, which hath been by so many learned men determined, and by the examples of all good common weals confirmed. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1 Unto the Authors of the Admonition, saying that it is easier to overthrow by bribing one man, than the faith & piety of a godly company, he answereth, that so it should come to pass, that the more that ruled the better estate it should be, and so the popular estate should be the best. But where do the authors of the Admonition say, that the more that rule, the better it is? Is it all one to say, that the government of a few of the best is better than the government of one, and to say, the more that rule the better? If it were to the purpose, it might be showed both by Divinity and by Philosophy, which M. Doctor speaketh of, that that estate which he means is not the best, and I have in a word before spoken of, where I declared that the mixed estate is best, both by the example of the kingdom of Christ, and also of this our realm. Io. Whitgifte. But if this be a g odd reason against the rule and government of one, that the Admonition useth, than the more that rule the better it is, and this is all that I charge them with. Whereunto you answer not one word, but dally off the matter, by ask where do the authors of the Admonition say, that the more that rule the better it is. I might dally with you in like manner, & say: where doth any man charge them with so saying? yet doth the same necessarily follow upon their reason. They say not, the government of a few of the best, but of a company: which signifieth many: and why should not this argument be good? if the government of a few godly men be better than the government of one, because one is easier overthrown by bribing than more, than is also the government of many godly men, better than the government of a few, because a few may sooner be corrupted than many: and consequently by the same reason, the more that govern the better. This reason you have glanced by, and not touched: and yet it enforceth a manifest absurdity, against the Authors of the Admonition. For it is too absurd to say that a Popular estate is the best state: neither will any affirm it, but those which would be Popular. You are never able to show either by Divinity or Philosophy, that there are more There are no more lawful kinds of government than three. lawful kinds of government than three: that is, democratical, Aristocratical, and Monarchical, and of these, both the Scripture and Philosophy alloweth of the Monarchy, as simply the best. The government of this kingdom is a right and true Monarchy. Neither do you The government of this realm a true Monarchy. know what a Monarchy is, when you call it a mixed estate: for that is called a Monarchy, where the chief care and government of the common wealth is committed to one, as it is in this kingdom in every respect. Chap. 2. the. 21. Division. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1 It is sufficient now to admonish you, that although it be granted that the government of 〈◊〉 be the best in the common wealth, yet it can not be in the Church: for the Prince may well be Monarch immediately between God and the common wealth, but no man can be Monarch between God and his Church but Christ, which is the only head thereof. Therefore the Monarchy over the whole Church and over every particular Church, and over every singular member in the Church, is in Christ alone. Io. Whitgifte. If you mean of the universal Church, only Christ is the head, neither hath he Christ the only head of his universal church. any Vicegerent to supply that universal care over the whole Church. But if you speak of particular Churches, as the Church of England, the Church of Denmark. etc. then as the Prince is chief governor and head of the common wealth The Prince head of a particular church under God, so is he of the Church likewise. For it is certain that the christian Magistrate under Christ, hath as great authority, as the Magistrate had under the law: But then the civil Magistrates had chief authority both in matters of the common wealth, and of the Church also (as hereafter it shall more plainly appear) therefore the Magistrate aught to have the same now in like manner. T. C. doth but T. C. glanceth at the magistrate. glance at the Magistrate, because he dare not speak plainly: but such licentious speeches (though void of all reason and ground) may peradventure sink deeper into the heart of the subjects, especially of the Papist (who hath already conceived the same opinion of the civil Magistrate) than will be rooted out in short time: so careful are these men in procuring to the Prince due obedience, and so faithful are they in maintaining her authority, according to their oath and duty. Chap. 2. the. 22. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. &. Pag. 132. Sect. 3 Both the names & offices of Seniors were extinguished before Ambrose time, as he himself doth testify, writing upon the fifth of the first to Timothy. In deed as Ambrose saith, writing upon the fifth of the first to Timothy, The Synagogue, and after, the Church had Seniors, without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church, but that was before his time, and before there was any christian Magistrates, or any Church established. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. Last of all (*) Untrue, for it is not alleged for that 〈◊〉 to prove that there aught to be no Seniors in the church under a christian Prince, he citeth Ambrose authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages, which saith that the Synagogue or Church of the jews, and after that the Church of the Christians had Seniors, without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church: whereupon he concludeth, that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time, therefore they were not under a christian Prince. Io. Whitgifte. This is most untrue. I allege not Ambrose in either of those places to prove that Seniors aught not to be under a christian Prince, as the Reader may understand evidently by my words. Only I confess that there was Seniors, and I allege Ambrose partly for that purpose, partly to show that both their names and offices were extinguished before his time: no man living can gather any other sense out of my words. Wherefore that conclusion upon Ambrose words is yours, it is not mine: and I am sorry that malice hath thrown you so deep into the pit of untruth, that you can not be got out of it. No cloak or shadow can cover this deformity of yours. Chap. 2. the. 23. Division. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. And here M. Doctor hath in one sentence proclaimed both his great ignorance in the whole story of the Church, and withal cyther a marvelous abusion, and 〈◊〉 himself to be misled by some unadvised, prompter, or subtle fox, that thought to deceive him, or else a notable evil conscience, which wrestleth against the truth. His ignorance doth appear, partly in that he sayththat because there were no Seniors in Ambrose Church, and in those Churches about him, therefore there was none at all: but most manifestly in that he saith, for so much as there were no Seniors in Ambrose time, therefore there was none under a christian Prince, as though there were not many years before Ambrose time christian Emperors, when as between the time of S. Ambrose being Bishop, & the time of Philip, the son of Gordias the first christian Emperor, there is more than. 150. years, and between the time of Constantine the Emperor, and the time of Ambrose being Bishop, there be above. 80. years. And if M. Doctor had ever read the Ecclesiastical stories, he might have (*) An untruth, else name your stories. found easily the Eldership most flourishing in Constantine's time, and other times, when as the peace of the Christians was greatest. Io. Whitgifte. Except it were to set fóorth your own knowledge, & to leave a public testimony of your great humility and modesty, you would not so immodestly accuse M. Doctor of ignorance, though you had convinced him of it, as you neither have done, nor are able to do , in that that he professeth. Likewise except yourself used prompters, & patched your book with other men's collections, you would never so often charge me with the same. I did not say, as I told you before, that because there was no Seniors in Ambrose time, therefore there was none under a christian Prince, but this I say, that the Seniors which Ambrose speaketh of, were extinguished before Ambrose time, and were not in the time of christian Princes. To what purpose do you accounted the time betwixt Philip & Ambrose, or Constantine and Ambrose? you should rather prove that this kind of government by Seniors was in Philip's dominion, if he were christened (which may be doubted) or under Constantinus. You say, if I had ever read the ecclesiastical stories, I might have found easily the Eldership most flourishing in Constantinus time, and other times, when as the peace of the Christians was greatest. You have read the Ecclesiastical stories, how chance that you show it not. It is your part to prove: you hold the affirmative. Bring forth one Ecclesiastical history that affirmeth this kind of government to have been under Constantinus. You might at the lest have quoted the Author (with the book and chapter) that so saith, though you had disdained to set down his words. I deny not but it might be so in some time, and in some place under a christian Prince (and yet I know not how you will be able to prove it) but that is not the question. For our contention is, whether this kind of government aught of necessity to be under a christian Prince, or not, and whether it be convenient so to be, though it be not necessary, and not whether it hath been (which notwithstanding can not be proved) or may be. Chap. 2. the. 24. Division. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 3 And that the Presbytery or Eldership endured in the Church after Ambrose time, and in the time of peace, and as it is very like in Ambrose time, although not where he was, it may be showed 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isaian. plainly by Jerome (which followed Ambrose immediately) who in his third chapter upon I say It is in the. 5. tom. not in the. 4 saith, that they had also the Presbytery or Eldership in the church. Io. Whitgifte. Jerome speaketh not one word of your Presbytery, his words be these: Et nos habemus Hier. 2. lib. in Isaiam. in ecclesia senatum nostrum, coetum presbyterorum: And we have in the Church our Senate, a company of Elders. Which he means of Priests, and of Colleges of Cathedral Churches, that were then in every city, and not of a Signiory in every congregation, whereby What Presbytery jeron means. every several parish was governed. That this was Jerome's meaning, it appeareth in the same place upon these words, Hariolum & senem, where he interpreteth the word Presbyter, saith they be such as S. Paul describeth in his Epistle to Tim. and those be ministers of the word and sacraments. So may we say that we have senatum & coetum presbyterorum in this Church of England, whether you will mean it of Synods and convocations, or of Cathedral & Collegiate Churches, which consist ex coetu presbyterorum: of a company of ministers. And therefore Duarenus a learned writer speaking Duarenus. of this Signiory, saith thus: And it is to be noted that there was a certain College of those Elders (he means Priests, as it is evident in that which goeth before) in every city, over whom the Bishop had rule, such as is at this day the College of Canons, which seem to have succeeded into their place. And this company of Priests doth Jerome call the senate of the Church. This Senate consists of Priests: yours of men in no degree of the ministery: This Difference betwixt jeroms presbytery▪ and that the replier would establish. Senate was only in every city, & the Bishop was the chief, yours must be in every parish, & directed by the Pastor. We read not of any such jurisdiction that this Senate had over any, but over the Clergy, yours must have authority both over clergy and laity: wherefore this place of Jerome doth not help you one whit. But be it that this Signiory was the same that you mean of, and that it was in Jerome's church, yet for as much as it was not in Ambrose his church also, it manifestly appeareth to be a thing indifferent, and not of necessity to be urged. Chap. 2. the. 25. Division. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. ult. The same might be showed by divers other testimonies, which I omit, because that it may appear by the former treatise touching the election of the minister, that this order of Eldership continued in the Church divers hundred years after Ambrose time, even as long almost as there was any sound part of the church, from the head to the heel. Io. Whitgifte. But seeing that you have hitherto brought forth so few testimonies, scil. one only, and that to small purpose, it had been well if you had not passed the rest over so lightly. For it is soon said, that divers other testimonies might have been showed: but it had been much for your credit if you had recited but one 〈◊〉, that we might at the lest have had two witnesses, but in deed you are not able. In your treatise of the election of ministers no such thing appeareth, except you will have whole parishes of the Signiory, and the same to be without a Pastor, who should be the guide. For parishes do not usually choose their Pastor until they be destitute. Neither is there any mention made by you, or proof in that treatise, that there was a Signiory in every parish, to whom the election was committed, and therefore you do but speak this, pro forma tantùm. Chap. 2. the. 26. Division. T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. ult. Now I have showed the ignorance, it remaineth to show how that either M. Doctor was marvelously himself abused, or else desireth to abuse either. For if where as he took half Ambrose sentence, he had taken the other half with him, and had not suddenly stopped his breath, that he should speak no more, in stead of a false witness against the Eldership, he should have brought forth as clear and as at a witness for the proof of them, as a man could desire out of an ancient writer. The whole sentence is this speaking of this office of Elders (although not upon so good occasion) Ambrose upon. 1. Ti. cap. 5. thus he saith: Whereupon the Synagogue, and after the Church had Elders, without whose council nothing was done in the Church, which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worn out, unless it be through the slothfulness of the Doctors, or rather through their pride, whilst they only would seem to be somewhat. Io. Whitgifte. But if you be not able to allege one place to prove that your signiory was in the time of christian Princes, except only that place of Hieronie, M. Doctor's ignorance is not so great, especially seeing that Ambrose, Hieronis ancient denieth the same to have been in his tyme. But if having one only testimony, and that making nothing for your purpose, but against you rather (because it establisheth Collegiate Churches, which you would gladly throw down) then M. Doctors knowledge in this matter, is more than you can with all your lofty speeches & immodest words obscure. I have alleged so much of Ambrose faithfully and truly, as proveth that which I allege him for: Neither have I left out one word that maketh against that my purpose: for if you remember yourself, you can not but see and understand that I only allege Ambrose to prove, that there was sometime a Signiory, but yet dissolved and abrogated before his time. If that which followeth in Ambrose disprove this, then in deed you may say, that either I am abused, or desire to abuse other. But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose, then why do you falsely charge me, or why pick you a quarrel against me for omitting that which neither doth me harm nor good. Disprove any thing by any words of Ambrose that I have alleged Ambrose for, if you can: if you can not, then temper your immoderate speeches, & frame them according to the truth. If Ambrose so misliked the abrogating of this Signiory, why did he not labour to restore it again: surely if it had been a matter so necessary, he being so godly and zealous a Bishop, would never have suffered his Church to be spoiled of it, but it is evident by his words that it had not been in practice long time before. Chap. 2. the. 27. Division. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1 Now that I have showed the place, I will say no more, I will leave it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himself, and so will conclude this question: that for so much as this order is such, as without which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised, and that which is commanded by the scriptures, approved and received by all the Churches in the Apostles times, and many hundred years after in the most flourishing churches, both in time of peace, and in time of persecution, and that there are greater causes why it should be in the time of peace, than in time of persecution, why rather under a christian prince, than under a tyrant, why rather now, than in the Apostles times, that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessary, and such an order as the Church aught not be without. Io. Whitgifte. It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it, or no: for as it nothing hindereth my purpose, so winneth it no credit unto yours. And for as much as the Church may much better be governed, and the principal offices of charity much better exercised, by the civil Magistrate, than by these Seniors: and seeing that this kind of government is neither commanded in the scriptures, nor practised in the Church as a kind of government not to be altered, seeing also that it bringeth in confusion, derogateth from that authority that God hath given to the civil Magistrate, howsoever it hath heretofore been used, yet is there no cause, why it should now, or at any time under Christian Princes, be of necessity retained. Chap. 2. the. 28. Division. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1 And so also is answered the third question, that for so much as they were Church officers (a) The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase, for it pro veth nothing in question. and over the people in matters pertaining to God, and such as watched over the souls of men (a) Heb. 13. that therefore although they were not Pastors to preach the word, yet were they no lay men (as they term them) but ecclesiastical people. Io. Whitgifte. M. Beza in an Epistle, that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza. Hell tia, speaking of the Signiory, saith, that there must be a great consideration had, that Princes and noble men, and such as have authority and pre-eminence in the Church, be choose to be of the Signiory: and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiastical people, and such as must watch over the souls of men? in deed those that be called Presbyteri, in the Scriptures be Ecclesiastical people, for they be ministers of the word and Sacraments. And M. Caluine Institut. cap. 8. sect. 52. Caluine. saith, that all the Seniors were ministers of the word. His words be these: Habebant ergo singulae Civitates Presbyterorun collegium, qui pastors erant & Doctores: nam & apud populum munus docendi, exhortandi & corrigendi, quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit, OMNES obibant: for every City had a College of Seniors, which were Pastors and teachers: for they did all exercise among the people, the office of teaching, exhorting, and correcting, which Paul doth enjoin to Bishops. But how can you make your Seniors ecclesiastical, seeing your Signiory must consist of noble men, gentlemen, marchauntmen, husbandmen, handycraftesmen, as Tailors, Shoemakers, Carpenters. etc. even such as the most part of the Parish will choose? Chap. 2. the. 29. Division. Admonition. Then the sentence was tempered according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousness of the fact. Now on the one 〈◊〉 either hatred against some people carrieth men headlong into rash and cruel judgement: or else favour, affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same, and all this cometh to pass because the regiment left of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Church, is committed into one man's hands, whom alone it shall be more easy for the wicked by bribing to pervert, than to overthrow the faith & piety of a zealous and godly company, for such manner of men in deed (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 130. Sect. ult. & Pag. 131. 132. & Pag. 133. Lin. ult. & Pag. 134. Sect. 1 You say, all this cometh to pass because the regiment left of Christ to his Church, is committed unto one man's hands: and for the proof of this, you note in the margin the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts, which places being examined, let the discrete Reader judge how aptly they serve for your purpose. In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort: If thy brother trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between him and thee alone, etc. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest, that Christ prescribeth a rule of correcting private and secret sins, and not of such as be open and known to others. For he would not have private and secret sins blazed abroad & publicly reprehended, before the party offending be in this order first privately admonished: this maketh nothing for your purpose, it taketh away authority of judging and condemning from private men, and not from public magistrates. In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth. verse. 28. these be the words of the Apostle: And God hath ordained some in the Church: as first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly teachers, then them that do miracles, after that the gift of healing, helpers, governors, diversity of tongues. How can you gather of these words, that all this cometh to pass (that is, hatred, favour, corruption by money, and affection in judgement) because the regiment left of Christ to his Church, is committed to one man's hands? In these words the Apostle declareth that Christ hath left in his Church governors, and thereof you may well conclude, that in the Church there must be some which should have authority over the rest. The Apostle doth not here An unperfect reason. say that in every particular congregation Christ hath left many governors, no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flock: but in his Church he hath ordained governors. The government of the whole universal Church, is not by Christ committed to one Bishop, or one Prince, nor the government of the whole world, to one Emperor: for no one man can discharge such a cure, and therefore he hath appointed in his Church divers Bishops, divers Princes, many governors. But one Prince may suffice to govern one kingdom, and one Archbishop one Province, as chief and principal over the rest, one Bishop one Diocese, one Pastor one parish, neither doth the Apostle speak any thing to the contrary. In the. 12. to the Romans it is thus written: he that ruleth with diligence. What maketh this for your purpose, or how can you wring it to your assertion? In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothy. The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honour. etc. Paul showeth in these words that such are worthy their stipend & reward, which rule well in the Church, and do their duties diligently: But what is that to your assertion? The places alleged out of the fifteenth of the Acts, be of the like sort. Wheresoever mention is made in the Scriptures of governors Lack of discretion in all ging of scriptures. or Elders, that you allege to improve the government of one man, wherein you show a great want of judgement. And yet there is no one person in this Realm (the Prince only excepted) which hath such absolute jurisdiction, as you would make your disciples believe. But your meaning is, that Christ left the whole government of his Church to the Pastor, and to some four of five of the Parish besides, which you are not able to prove; & your places of scripture alleged signify no such matter. In those places that be governed by many, do you not see what contention there is? what enmity? what factions? what parts taking? what confusion? what little good order observed? what carelessness & dissoluteness in all manner of behaviour? I could make this manifest by examples, if I were disposed. In the. 18. of Exodus, which (place you quote to prove that Seniors aught to be zealous and godly) jethro giveth Moses counsel not to weary himself in hearing all matters that be brought unto him, but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others: And therefore verse. 21. he sayeth: Provide thou among all the people, men of courage, fearing God, men dealing truly, having covetousness, and appoint such over them to be rulers over thousands, rulers over hundreds, rulers over fifties, and rulers over tens. etc. This maketh nothing for Seniors: Moses here was chief, these were but his under officers placed by himself. This place serveth well for the government of one Prince over one whole realm, and giveth him good counsel what under officers he aught to choose. To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written which you cite out of the first of Deuteron. verse. 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1 The rest comprehended in these sections, is answered before, being matter which pertained unto the Archbishop. Io. Whitgifte. Very little of it pertaineth to the Archbishop. The Authors of the Admonition bring in all these places of Scripture, to prove the government of your Seniors, but how aptly it app areth, in that you cannot salve their follies in so unapt allegations. There be other things that require answer, but you have shifted of all in saying, that they pertain to the Archbishop & be answered before: when as neither of both is true: for they pertain to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered. But I leave it to the Reader here to consider, why you have not set down my book in your Reply. ¶ The inconvenience of the Signiory in the time of Christian Princes, especially in the state of this Church. Chap. 3. Now that you have spoken all that you can for your Seniors, give me leave a little to declare the absurdities and inconveniences that must of necessity follow, that kind of government. 1. Difference & disagreement in orders and religion. First, every several parish must be as it were a several Church, governed by several orders, & ceremonies, yea and peradventure profess several points of doctrine: for there must be equality among ministers, and one of them must not have to do with another's parish. The whole government of the Parish must remain in the minister and certain Seniors, who shall have authority to correct vice, abolish ceremonies, appoint orders, abregate customs, make Ecclesiastical laws, as they shall think good for that congregation. So that whatsoever the Pastor and his Seniors devise and agree upon, be it good or evil, common or singular, it must be obeyed under the pain of Excommunication. Secondly, that Signiory being chosen by the Pastor & the parish, if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉. any other noble man be of that congregation & chosen to that office by the most part, he must not refuse it, but attend upon it, be at M. Pastors calling who is the chief of the Signiory, & in that respect above Earl, Duke, Ring, or whosoever: moreover he must be contented to be linked & joined in commission, with the basest sort of the people, if it please the parish to appoint to him such Colleags, as it is like they will: Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and government by such simple Seniors overruled, (as it is most like they shall) they must therewith be contented. Thirdly, it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to bear, for whereas now 3. Burden and charge of parishes. they repined at the finding of their Pastors, than they must be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons, and six or seven Seniors with widows also. Fourthly, it bringeth in a new Popedom, & tyranny into the Church, for it giveth 4. Tyranny. to the Pastor & his fellow Seniors authority to exercise discipline, by Excommunication, or otherwise against Prince, Nobles, & whosoever being of that congregation. So that unless the Prince and Nobles be (as it were) at their beck, and ready at all times to accomplish their desire, they will send out their thunderbolts of Excommunication against them, even as the Pope was wont to do, after he had got that jurisdiction into his hand that this Signiory claimeth. Fifthly, it smelleth of Anabaptisme, as M. Gualther noteth. 1. Cor. 11 in these words, 5. It smelleth of Anabaptisme▪ Gualther. The Donatists' of our time aught to consider these things more diligently, which do over rashly condemn whole cities and countries wherein the word of God is preached▪ Sacraments rightly administered, public prayer celebrated, the poor sufficiently provided for, and finally where vice is by good and holy laws forbidden and punished. All these things they esteem as nothing, except there be a certain new Magistracy appointed, which should have authority over Princes also, not only to reprove, but also to excommunicate them. It taketh from the Prince all authority in Ecclesiastical matters, & it giveth unto 6. Spoiling the Prince of high authority in cases Ecclesiastical. him only potestatem facti, not juris, as the Papists do: for the Prince must maintain & see executed, such laws, orders, & ceremonies, as the Pastor with his Seniors make and decree: But in making and appointing orders & ceremonies, he may in no case meddle, as will hereafter more plainly appear. 7. Subversion of the state & government of the common wealth. It transformeth the state and government of the common wealth into a mere popularity, for they say in their second Admonition Pag. 55. that some must be governed by all, & not all by some, whereunto if that be joined which T. C. so often repeateth, that is, the government of the common wealth must be framed to the government of the church, as the hangings to the house, it may be easily conjectured what they shoot at. Second Admonition. Pag. 144. The deciding of matters in controversy, by this Signiory, will be a great occasion of partial & affectionate dealing: of contention and discord, while some shall incline one way, and some another. For it cannot be unknown, that there are many lightheaded 8. Contention & parcialitic. and unconstant ministers, & that the common sort of people are not much better affected, so that alterations in doctrine, partial dealing in discipline, undiscrete exhortations, and admonitions, would trouble the whole Church, & set all the land together by the ears. How contemptible in the end this kind of government would be, & how little esteemed, 9 It will in the end be contemned, & so good order neglected. wise men can consider. And M. Gualther well setteth out this inconvenience in these words: For they which cannot be brought into good order by the authority of a lawful magistrate, & by laws, much less will suffer themselves to be punished, by the commandment of Seniors, and of an Ecclesiastical senate, whom with all their solemnity they will Gualther in. . Cor. 5. laugh to scorn. On the other side, they which among the magistrates were remiss in executing the discipline of manners, and were too favourable, will now be glad that this burden is transferred from them to others, and will wholly neglect it. And what will the Seniors do, when these men will not meddle? surely they willbe a laughing stock to a great many: Whiles Hares will prescribe to Lions a law, And weaklinges would keep fierce tyrants in awe. as the Poet recordeth. Many also of the magistrates will not only wink at this, but will laugh in their sleeves at the weak and ridiculous Domination of the new Senate. It will therefore so come to pass, that whereas before there was at the lest some discipline, & sometimes some were terrified by mulctes and examples of punishments, now (that also being taken away) impunity will begin to reign, with a great and public contempt of the sacred ministery. Neither do I ☜ speak these things unadvisedly, for examples do teach us that these things are done, which are so notoriously known to all men, that I need not to speak any more of these things. But if in this immoderate licentiousness, those Seniors should proceed to excommunicate all those, which set themselves against them, it is to be feared lest at the length there be a greater number of excommunicated people, than of those which do communicate with the church. Wherefore let the Seniors tell me what they think meet then to be done: I suppose they will answer: it shall then be needful to have the authority of the magistrates that he might correct those wicked men, which by their malapertness and rashness do overthrow the Church. I agreed also to this counsel: But if this thing aught then to be done, when as it can scarce be without public danger, why is not the authority left wholly unto the magistrate, & the whole government of public discipline committed to him before the matter come to this extremity? Hitherto Gualther. It would bring in, too great extremity of punishment: for whereas neither God nor 10. Double punishment for one fault. man, nor any law doth punish one man twice for one & the self same fact, & it is against the liberty of well ordered countries, to be subject to the punishmêt of two divers magistrates: by establishing this Signiory, this burden must be laid upon the people's necks. For let the Magistrate punish according to the laws as severely as he can, yet the Signiory will remit nothing of their censures, but proceed according to their manner, as it may be seen in the. 2. Admonition: fol. 47. And surely as M. Gualther Gualther in 1. Cor. 5. sayeth speaking of this inconvenience of the Signiory in the former place: It seemeth to us altogether very dangerous, to appoint two magistrates over one people: neither see we any example whereby this may be proved: and surely I willingly and freely confess that I cannot perceive how profitable it would be. I omit to put you in mind how dangerous (namely in these days) alterations of 11. Alteration in this time dangerous, etc. government & change of states is in established common wealths: likewise how unreasonable a thing it is, to enforce the civil Magistrate to suffer in his dominion so many several kinds of governments, orders, ceremonies, etc. in the Church, as there be parishes. Also how unseemly it is, to deliver his sword out of his own hands & to commit it to the discretion of the common sort & multitude in every several parish, to displace noble men, gentlemen, wise, learned, and discrete men, & commit the whole government of the Church to M. Pastor & his ignorant neighbours. The absurdity & incoveniences that of necessity must ensue of this kind of government, where there is a Christian magistrate, be infinite, & wise men may easily conceive the rest, by that which I have here already spoken. Yet would I not have any man to think that I condemn any churches, where this government is lawfully & without danger received, only I have regard to whole kingdoms, especially this Realm, where it cannot but be dangerous. ¶ That there is no one certain kind of Government in the Church which must of necessity be perpetually observed. Chap. 4. I know it willbe objected that the ordinance of God must take place, whatsoever inconveniences follow, & that this kind of government is the ordinance of God, & therefore may not for any respect be omitted. But I have denied, & sufficiently declared before, that this kind of Government is nowhere in scripture commanded, & that it neither is, nor can be perpetual. And although I have sufficiently proved this, in one, or two places before (& the contrary is yet unproved) as I had occasion to speak of it, yet I trust it shall not be grievous to the Reader, if in a word or two, I here knit up the matter. First, I affirm that there is not one sentence in the whole scripture, whereupon the 1. No commandment hereof in scripture. perpetuity or the necessity of this kind of government, may be grounded. For the place in. 1. Tim. 5. doth neither command any such kind of government, nor prescribe any form or manner of it: besides, the place is doubtful & diversly expounded: and therefore no such perpetual rule can be gathered of it. Moreover the Apostle only in that place showeth, that such as rule well are worthy of double honour, etc. so that I marvel how any man can of those words conclude either such a Signiory as now is Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. imagined, or any perpetuity of it. But of this place I have spoken before. Secondly, it is well know, that the manner & form of government used in the Apostles 2. The government in the Apostles time cannot now be exercised. time, & expressed in the scriptures, neither is now, nor can or aught to be observed, either touching the people or the functions: for we have neither Apostles, Prophets, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, diversity of tongues, widows, or such like, all which pertained to the government of the Church in the Apostles time, and were parts of it, as appeareth▪ 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1. Tim. 5. And seeing that the Church is not bound to this form, so plainly expressed in these places of scripture, I see not how you can bind it, to the self same form of government used in the Apostles time. Thirdly, this word gubernationes mentioned, 1. Cor. 12. whereupon you would ground 3. The word (gubernationes) implieth not the Signiory, but by conjecture. your Signiory, may (as some learned men think) signify any kind of government: cven the civil Magistrate. Certain it is, that only by mere conjectures it is drawn to signify this new devised Signiory, & therefore cannot infer any necessary conclusion. Furthermore it is by the spirit of God placed among those functions that be temporal, and by the judgement of all learned men ceased: for thus the Apostle sayeth: Deinde potestates, deinde dona sanationum opitulationes, gubernationes. genera linguarum: now it were 1. Cor. 12. a very strange matter, that all the rest should be temporal, and only gubernationes perpetual: sure I am that the argument which so concludeth, may easily be denied, and by no probability proved. Fourthly, we see manifestly, that in sundry points, the government of the Church, 4. The Apostolical government hath of necessity been altered. used in the Apostles time, is, and hath been of necessity altered, & that it neither may nor can be revoked: whereby it is plain, that any one certain form or kind of external government perpetually to be observed, is no where in the Scripture prescribed to the Church: but the charge thereof is left to the Christian Magistrate, so that nothing be done contrary to the word of God. This is theopinion of the best writers, neither do I know any learned man of a 5. The general opinion of the best writers. Musculus. loc. Com. tit. de Magist. contrary judgement. M. Musculus speaking of those Seniors saith that they were used in those Churches only, that were destitute of Christian Magistrates: which have the chiefty and power, etc. not only in profane, but in divine matters. And after answering an objection of 1. Cor. 6. he sayeth: that we must needs distinguish between the state of the Church in those days, and that whichiss now. I have before declared M. Gualters' judgement of this matter in his Commentaries upon the. 1. Cor. 5. And upon the. 11. chapped. Gualther. hom. 56. in. 1. Cor. speaking generally of the government of the Church, he sayeth thus: Wherefore as concerning the doctrine of faith and salvation, we acknowledge no traditions of the Apostles, but those which are contained in the creed, etc. But as concerning the external form of the Church, we deny not that they have taught every where, many things of the order of Ecclesiastical assemblies, of the administration of Sacraments, and of the whole government of the Church. Whereof because there cannot be one form in every place observed, they did in such sort appoint them, as they saw to be requisite for the condition of any City or Country. And it is certain that the Churches in all ages have used their liberty in these things: & therefore they are to injurious which at this day either under the name of the traditions of the Apostles, or for any other pretence, go about to bind all Churches to one and the self same form. And upon the. 12. chapter, where he again speaketh of the Signiory, he Idem. sayeth, There be divers which will needs institute Elders, or an Ecclesiastical enate according to the example of the old & primitive Church, which also should have authority, over the Magistrates themselves, if at any time they did not their duty. But it behoveth them first to show that those their Seniors have this power, whereof Paul doth presently speak, which thing seeing it doth by no means appear, and yet notwithstanding they deliver unto Satan whom they will, they do like as if some would go about to cleanse the leprous, raise the dead, & work other miracles because these things were usually done in the primitive Church. And the which he speaketh touching this matter also upon the. 14. chapped. of the same Epistle is not unworthy the noting: whereof I have before made mention, That their ambition Idem is. (there) reproved which go about to bring all churches, to the form of their discipline & government, & cry out that there is no discipline there, where all things are not agreeable to their traditions & orders: But these men receive a just reward of their arrogancy, when as they that come from them to other countries, do go beyond all men in sauciness, neither bring they any thing with them from home, but a vain & intolerable contempt of all good men, neither can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others. M. Caluine speaking of the government of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus: Scimus politiam pro varietate temporum recipere, imo exigere, varias mutationes. We know that the policy (of the Church) doth receive, nay rather doth require diverse alterations. Caluine. Beza. M. Beza likewise Lib. confess. Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same mind touching the government of the Church: There was another cause of the Ecclesiastical assemblies, that they might ordain canons of Ecclesiastical discipline, and (that I may comprehend many things in few words) that they might appoint ecclesiastical policy, for the diverse circumstances of times, places, and persons. For it is necessary all things should be done orderly in the house of God: of the which order there is one general reason to be taken out of the word of God, but not one and the same form agreeable to all circumstances. And Section. 32. speaking of this Signiory, he showeth that it was necessary in the Church, whilst there was no Christian magistrate. For so he writeth: But there Idem. were Elders choose by suffrages, or at lest by the approbation of the whole company, as it is very evident out of Ambrose, which complaineth, that certain men had transferred this authority to themselves: and ut of Cyprian likewise, by whom we may also understand, that the Bishop did rule over the college of Elders, not that he should there reign, but that by their consent he might rule the Policy of the church, especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Africa were not helped of the Magistrate, but were rather cruelly vexed of them. And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the government of the Church, he sayeth: Neither must we simply look what was done of the Apostles in the Government Idem. of the church, seeing there are most diverse circumstances, and therefore without preposterous zeal, all things cannot in all places and times be called to one and the same form: but rather the end and invariable purpose of them must be looked unto, and that manner and form of doing things is to be choose, which doth directly tend thereunto. This is the judgement of these learned men, neither do I know any that thinketh the contrary, except such as make post haste to that branch of Anabaptisme. Sixtly, either we must admit another form now of governing the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a change of the first kind of government. was in the Apostles time, or else we must seclude the Christian magistrate, from all authority in Ecclesiastical matters, & attribute no more to him therein, than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time: for in those days there was no Christian Prince to govern the church. But Christian Princes have & must have, the chief care & government of the Church next under God: Ergo, the same form of government cannot be now, nor aught to be, that was in the Apostles time. Thus it is evident that the ground whereof T. C. hath builded his whole book, is a false ground, contrary to the Scriptures, the practice of the Church, the opinions The ground of the Reply. of learned men, and the lawful and just authority of christian Princes, and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stand. ¶ Of certain matters concerning discipline in the Church. Tract. 18. Of Excommunication, and in whom the execution thereof doth consist. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. Admonition. Let us come now to the third part, which concerneth ecclesiastical discipline: the officers that have to deal in this charge, are chief three, Ministers, Preachers, or Pastors, of wheme before. Seniors or Elders, and Deacons. Concerning Seniors, not only their office, but their name also is out of this English Church utterly removed. Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 . 28. govern the church with the rest of the Ministers, to consult, to admonish, to correct, and to order all things appertaining to the state of the congregation. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 112. Sect. 3 What Scripture have you to prove that such Seniors as you mean, & Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiastical discipline? I think the only discipline that we have in the whole new testament (except you will make admonition & exhortation a part of it) is Excommunication: and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the word. Math. 16. john. 20. Examples hereof we have Only 〈◊〉 master's may excommunicate. 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. & ad Titum. 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I return back again to excommunication, which M. Doctor thinketh to be the only discipline in the church, but he should understand, that beside the part of private discipline (which is ordinarily & daily to be exercised by every one of the pastors & elders, as admonition & reprehension) there are three principal parts which are exercised of them jointly & together, whereof the first is the election or choice, & the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers. The second is in excommunication of the stubborn or absolution of the repentant. The third is the decision of all such matters as do rise in the church, either touching corrupt manners or perverse doctrine. Io. Whitgifte. I speak of the public discipline of the church, not of private admonition & reprehension, which may be called by the name of Discipline, but neither are they properly, nor usually so called, except you will also say the public preaching & reading of the scriptures is discipline: these be things annexed to discipline, but unproperly termed by the name Wherein discipline consists of discipline. Your partition of discipline into those three parts, in my poor judgement, is very unskilful: for discipline consists in punishing & correcting of vice: neither yet is the deciding of controversies in matters doubtful, properly called discipline, for discipline is exercised in punishing & correcting the people, not decjoing the causes. Wherefore I think you have forgotten yourself, & in stead of the part, have divided the whole, that is, you have made a division of government, whereas you took upon you to divide discipline, which is but a part of ecclesiastical policy or government. Read the general confession, of the Christian churches in Helvetia, & tell me what it differeth from any thing the I have said. Call to your remembrance that which yourself Pag. 1. 4. li. . 9 have spoken, pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church, but forerunners to excommunication, but this is a contention only about words, & therefore enough is said of it. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3 As touching the election, & consequently the throwing out, it hath been showed before, that together with the church, the Eldership hath the principal sway. For the decision of controversies when they rise, it may appear in the. 15. of the Acts, that the Presbytery or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also. Now it remains here, that whereas M. Doctor says, that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again, doth perteme only to the minister. the I show that the presbytery or eldership, & the whole church also, hath interest in the excommunication, & consequently in the absolution or restoring unto the church. But here by the way it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting. noted, that in saying that it belongeth to the minister, he confesseth the disorder in our church, wherein this power is taken away from the minister and given to the Bishop and his officers. Io. Whitgifte. Of Election of ministers, & so of their rejection, & throwing out, sufficient hath been spoken Tract. 3. before, & your manner of electing by better reasons confuted, than it was by you proved: for the decisions of controversies when they arise, it may appear in the. 15. of the Acts, that the best way is to call Synods & Counsels of learned men, as it was there practised, & not to commit such matters to the pastor of every several parish, & certain of his neighbours whom you call the Signiory: for if it had been so, what needed Paul and Barnabas have taken so long a journey from Antioch to jerusalem for the deciding of their controversies, seeing that they & the Signiory (if there had been any such) might have ended the same at home in Antioch? This place undoubtedly overthroweth your Signiory, except now you will take it (as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftentimes taken) for a Synod or convocation of bishops & priests: so the not your Signiory which is in every parish, but general or provincial Counsels & Synods must have the deciding of controversies: else as I said before, why should Paul and Barnabas come from Antioch to jerusalem to have their controversies determined? Your note by the way, is not worth a rush, for when I say that the execution of discipline is only committed to the ministers of the word, you cannot thereupon conclude, that every minister hath authority to exercise it in the church. It is one thing to say, only ministers have authority to excommunicate, & to say that all ministers have authority so to do: only ministers may be Bishops, & yet all ministers be not Bishops: only Lawyers may be judges, & yet all Lawyers be not judges: only citizens may be Aldermen, Sheriffs, & Majors, & yet all be not so: wherefore by the way here you oversot yourself. And yet I think that all ministers have power to excommunicate, if the Church think it good, to commit that authority unto them. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Page. 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not unto one, or to the minister, but chief to the Eldership and Pastor, it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition allege out of S. Matthew, which place I have proved before to be necessarily understanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. church. Io. Whitgifte. I have told you before, how that place of Matthew is to be understanded, & what it is, to tell the Church, namely either to reprove the party openly before the congregation or else to complain to such as have authority in the church, & to whom the executing of discipline is committed, which is by the order of the church of England, the Bishop. And therefore the Bishop alone both by the laws of God, and of this church of England (which hath given unto him by consent in Parliament that authority) may exercise this discipline. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. Admonition. Then it was said tell l Math. 18. 17 the church: now it is spoken, complain to my lords grace, Primate and Metropolitan of all England, or to his inferior, my Lord Bishop of the Diocese, if not to him, show the Chancellor, or Official, or Commissary, or Doctor. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 135. Sect. 1 As it was said then, so aught you and may you say now: in private offences, if private admonitions will not serve, then must you declare them to the church, either by reprehending of them publicly, before the whole congregation (if you be called thereunto) for that is Church signifieth those that have authority in the church. one kind of telling the church, or else by complaining to such as have authority in. the church, for in that place of matthew (as all learned interpreters both old and new do determine) the church signifieth such as have authority in the church. Therefore when you complain to my lords grace, Lord Bishop of the Diocese, or their chancellors, Commissaries. etc. You tell the church, that is, such as be appointed to be public Magistrates in the church, according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. ult. It is most absurdly said of M. doctor in the. 135. page, that by the church is understanded either my lords grace, or the Bishop of the Diocese, or the Chancellor or Commissary. And that when a man complaineth unto one of these, he may be well said to complain unto the church, which is the more untolerable, for that being so strange a saying, and such as may astonyshe at that hear it, he neither confirmeth it by no reason, by no like phrase of scripture, by no authority of any Godly or approved writer, old or new, which notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently, and turneth the commentaries in his study so painfully, when he can have but one against twenty, and but a syllable where he cannot have a sentence. Io. Whitgifte. I have showed sufficient authority for my saying, even the consent of all learned interpreters: who by the church in that place understand such as have chief authority in the church, which in this church of England (as I have said) are bishops. Chrysostom Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. saith as much as I do, so that it need not to seem so strange that it should astonish all thee hear it, his words be these: Dic ecclesiae, Praesulibus scilicet, & Praesidentibus. Tell the church, that is, the Prelates, and Precedents. But you think to overload me with unseemly words, howbeit that will not carry away the cause: I am so used to them by you and yours, both in speech and writing, that I esteem them now (I thank God) as I do the dust of my feet. If I seek the writers so diligently, and turn the commentaries in my study so painfully, why do you so often accuse me of ignorance, & want of reading, & taking my pleasure? Ex ore tuo te judico. etc. & mendacem memorem esse oportet. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. ult. etc. It may be the clerelier understanded, that the presbytery or eldership, had the chief stroke in this excommunication, if it be observed that this was the policy and discipline of the jews, and of the Synagogue from whence our saviour Christ took this, & translated it unto his church, that when any man had done any thing that they held for a taulte, that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church, according to the quality of the fault, as it may appear in S. Matthew, for although it be of some (and those very learned) expounded of the civil judgement, yet for Cap. 5. so much as the jews had nothing to do with civil judgements, (the same being altogethe in the hands of the Romans) and that the word Sanedrim, corrupted of the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which S. Matthew useth, is known by those that have skill in the Rabbins, and especially the Jews Talmud to signify the ecclesiastical governors, there can be no doubt but he means the ecclesiastical censures. And if the fault were judged very great, than the sentence of excommunication Cap. 9 was awarded by the same Elders as appeareth in S. john. And this was the cause why our saviour Christ spoke so shortly without noting the circumstances more at large, for that he spoke of a thing which was well known and used amongst the jews whom he spoke unto. Io. Whitgifte. It is very unlike that our saviour Christ would borrow any such manner or form of government from the jews: seeing the same was neither before prescribed unto them by God, nor yet at that time rightly used, but most shamefully abused: and yet (if it were so) it quite overthroweth your purpose. For the jews Signiory was only at jerusalen, yours must be in every parish: besides that, there is a great differ ce in the people. Howbeit I do not understand how you can draw the place in the. 5. of Matthew to your purpose, for if you mean these words (Quicunque dixerit fratri suo Racha, obnoxius Math. 5. erit concilio: He that calleth his brother Racha, shallbe in danger of a council) as I am sure you do, Christ doth not there prescribe any form of government or order of punishing, but he declareth the degrees of uncharitable dealing towards our brethren, & the increase of punishments according to the same. M. Bullinger in his Commentaries upon that place says, that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bullinger. doth signify consessum judicum & buiusmodi consessum qualis apud Graecos erat Amphictyonum qui de gravissimis solebant consultare causis. And he addeth, that Christ hereby signifieth, that as the fault increaseth, so doth the punishment also. M. Caluine likewise in his harmony upon the Gospel says that Christ in this place, Caluine. alluding to earthly judgements doth testify, that God willbe judge even of secret anger to punish it. And because he proceedeth further, which uttereth his anger in bitter speech, he says that he is guilty, coram toto coelesti consessu, before the celestial assembly, that he may sustain the greater punishment. Nova Glossa says, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signify an assembly of judges, and that in such Nova Glossa. assemblies as at Athens in the court of Mars, weightier causes were wont to be handled, and punishments for offenders, consulted upon. There, says that commentary, Christ by the name of a council, alluding to the manners and customs of men, teacheth that those are more grievously to be punished, which more utter and express their anger. Beza saith, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth that kind of government, wherein there was. 23. Beza. judges, to whom did appertain the hearing of weighty causes. And the marginal note of the Geneva bible upon this place is this: Like judgement almost, the Romans observed, for Triumuiri had the examination of small matters, the Council of. 23. of greater causes, and finally great matters of importance were decided by the senate of. 71. judges, which here is compared to the judgement of God, or to be punished with hell fire. Which fully agreeth with M. Beza his interpretation, who sayeth also: that it is according to the Hebrew commentaries. Now how you can pull this to your Signiory, or to Ecclesiastical governors only, and especially to excommunication, I cannot learn or read in any writer: & these whom I have here named, teach a far other sense and meaning of the words of Christ than you do. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 147. Lin. 15. And that this was the meaning of our saviour Christ in those words it may appear by the practise which is set forth in the Epistles to the Corinthians. For it is certain that S. Paul did both understand and observe the rule of our Saviour Christ. But he communicateth this power of excommunication with the church, and therefore it must needs be the meaning of our Saviour Christ, that the excommunication should be by many, & not by one, and by the church and not by the minister of the church alone. For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twice in the first Epistle, 1. Cor. 5. once by a metaphor, another time in plain words, that they should excommunicate the incestuous person. By metaphor, saying (*) This is not 〈◊〉 of the in 〈◊〉 person purge out your old leaven, in plain & flat words when he saith, take away that wicked man from amongst you. And in the second Epistle understanding of the repentance 2. Cor. 2. of that man, he entreateth them that they would receive him in again, showing that he was content to release the bond & chain of his excommunication, so that they would do the same, & therefore considering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate, doth pertain unto the church, it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertain unto it. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine speaking of the words of Christ, Math. 18. wherein I am sure you will have the same order of government to be expressed, that is in this place of Math. 5. doth make great difference betwixt the order there prescribed by Christ, & that practised by the Apostle. 1. Cor. 5. because in that place, Christ committeth the matter to a few, & in this place the Apostle seemeth to commit it to the whole multitude. M. calvin's words be these, A question may be asked what he means by the name of the Church: for Paul Caluine in. 18. Math. commandeth the incestuous Corinthian to be excommunicated not of any choose number, but of the whole company of the godly: wherefore it is probable that here the judgement is committed to the whole people: But because then as yet there was no church which professed Christ, neither any such order appointed, and the Lord speaketh according to the usual and received custom: There is no doubt, but that he alludeth unto the order of the old church, as also in other places, he frameth his talk according to the known and usual manner. So that, that excommunication used in the church of the Corinthians, can in no respect be the practice of the rule of Christ in either of the places, neither yet according unto it: wherefore you writ without judgement, you wot not what. S. Paul did publicly excommunicate in the presence of the whole church, and used them as witnesses of his just dealing: but his words be plain that the right & power of excommunication remained in himself. When S. Paul saith unto the Corinthians, Expurgate vetus fermentum. etc. purge out the old leaven, he speaketh not of the incostuous Corinthian, but exhorteth them 1. Cor. 5. to newness of life: you shall hear how M. Caluine expoundeth that place: Because he had borrowed a similitude of leaven, he retaineth it still: although he doth digress from the Calui. 1. Cor. 5. matter which he hath in hand unto a general doctrine, for he speaketh no more of the incestuous person, but generally exhorteth them unto purity of life. etc. Lord how careless you are in perverting the true sense and meaning of the scripture, that you may violently draw them to your purpose. When he saith: Put away that wicked man from among you, he doth not will them to excommunicate him, but to shun and avoid his company, and not to suffer him to come among them because he was excommunicate. And as he in this place moveth them to a detestation of him, so in that place of the second Cor. 2. after his repentance & receiving again into the church, he exhorteth them to embrace him and to love him This may and aught to be done, the authority of excommunication resting in one, for the people without such exhortations will hardly conceive a good opinion of him whom they have known to be so grievous an offender. Wherefore the Apostle here moveth them to forgive him, & to love him: he doth not give them any authority to deliver him from the bond of excommunication, for that he did himself, as it may evidently appear by the circumstance of the place. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Lin. 10. I read in the fift chapter of the first to the Corinthians, that the incestuous Corinthian was excommunicated publicly in the presence of the whole congregation. But I read neither of Senior nor Deacon, called as officers to the same. S Paul himself sayeth: Paul alone had lus excommunicandi. Ego quidem ut absens corpore, presens spiritu, iam decrevi tanquam presens, ut is. etc. I truly as absent in the body, but present in spirit, have determined as present, that he. etc. Which manifestly argueth, that Ius excommunicandi, was in Paul & not 1. Corinth. 5. in the rest. But all is scripture that you speak, how far soever it is from the true meaning and sense of the scripture. T. C. pag. 147. Sect. 1 Now, whereas M. Doctor upon those words of S. Paul, that he being absent in body, and present in spirit, had determined. etc. concludeth that the right of excommunication was in S. Paul, and not in the rest, it is as much as if he should say, S. Paul (*) Maledict glossa quae corumpit textum. as much as say in him excommunicated, therefore S. Paul excommunicated: or S. Paul excommunicated, therefore the church did not. For what if S. Paul did excommunicate him so much as say in him, should he therefore have been excommunicated, if the church of Corinthe & the minister there would have admitted him to the supper, and not abstain from samiliar companying with him? You will say he should have been bound in heaven and before God, although the church of Corinthe had not put him forth. It is true that the Apostles denunciation of God's vengeance upon the impenitent sinner, is ratified in heaven, and so should he also have been▪ if S. Paul had said nothing, and yet S. Paul did not excommnnicate the incestuous person, but so much as say in him, and as far as his right stretched: not being therefore yet excommunicated by S. Paul, it followeth that the church had a stroke in the excommunication. Io. Whitgifte. S. Paul did excommunicate him, & if the church of Corinthe had kept him in amongst them notwithstanding, yet had he been excommunicated before God: and they should have showed themselves, to have been a stubborn & rebellious people: In deed, if you Excommunication is more than excluding from the eternal society. take excommunication for excluding from the external society of the church only, than the people if they be stubborn & wilful, may stop & hinder the execution of that discipline, but in so doing they forget their duty. But if by excommunication you understand binding in heaven (as you aught to do) then had the incestuous person been truly excommunicated, though both the minister and the people had said the contrary. Wherefore it is true that the right of excommunicating remained in Paul, though the people did give their consent unto it, by secluding him from their company, and from the sacraments. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 147. towards the end. Again to prove that the church hath nothing to do with excommunication, it is not enough to say, that S. Paul had the right of excommunication: But you should have showed that he on lie had opinions should no otherwise be put to silence, than by excommunication, and aught no further to be punished, do not reason sufficiently and aptly. For there is one duty of the Bishop, and another of the Magistrate. Paul writing unto Titus doth not entreat of the office of a magistrate, but showeth what is convenient for a Bishop. Although a moderate mean is always best: that they which are not past care, be not so much kept in order by force, as by ecclesiastical discipline. But you think your own word to be a sufficient warrant against all men. You may well study the words of the Scripture, but me think you do not greatly pass for the right understanding of them. Chap. 1. the. 11. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Lin. 4. Basilius Magnus in his second book de Officijs. cap. 27. testifieth the same. T. C. Pag. 148. Lin. 32. As touching Basiles place in the second book of Offices, when the book cometh forth and is printed, than it shall be answered, as for me I know of none such that is extant now. Io. Whitgifte. I confess the name to be mistaken: it is an oversight, and yet no greater than In his Epistle Sect. 8. yours is in alleging josias for Ezechias. And both this, and that which followeth of Theodorete for Theodotus, were corrected as well in the books of the first edition, as in the second, before I had your warning. The placing of one name for another is not so great an oversight, but that it may sometime happen to those which are very circumspect, and even unto yourself, as josias for Ezechias, in the beginning, (*) and Gregory for George, afterward: so that herein you are not inferior to me, and the Pag. 97. Sect. 3 Ambrose. one may well be set against the other. But let these trifles go: it is Ambrose in his book de Officijs cap. 27. whose words be these: Let the Bishop use the clerk, and especially the Ministers which are indeed his sons, as his own members: let him assign every one to that office whereunto he shall see him to be meet. The part also of the body which putrifyeth is with grief cut off, and it is long looked unto; if it can be cured with medicines▪ but if it cannot, then is it cut away by a good Physician. So it is the property of a good Bishop, that he be desirous to heal the weak, to take away sores that creep on, to burn some, and not to cut them away: last, to cut away with grief that which cannot be cured. Chap. 1. the. 12. Division. T. C. Page. 148. in the end of the. 1 Sect. To the rest I will answer with this pratestation, that if all men should do contrary to the order of God, yet their authority or 〈◊〉 ght not to have the weight of a feather, which I have said before, and do understand it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, where I do not express it, and with this I come to master Doctors authorities. Io. Whitgifte. This I acknowledge to be true▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you make this protestation before there be cause? When any authority 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the order of God, reject it and spare not: but yet you must show us that 〈◊〉 of God, to the which it is trarie▪ Chap. 1. the. 13. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Lin. 5. Theodorus alone excommunicated. Theodorete Bishop of Laodicea, did by himself alone excommunicate both Appolinaries for keeping company with that wicked Sophister Epiphanius, as Sozomenus writeth Lib. 6. cap. 25. T. C. Pag. 148. Sect. 2. As for Theodoretus Bishop of Laodicea, which Sozomene maketh mention of, in his sixth book, I find none such, but there is mentioned of one Theodotus, who is said to have separated or excommunicated Apollinaris, but it doth not appear there that he alone of his own authority did excommunicate him. And there be great reasons in that Chapter, to prove that he did it not of his own authority, for immediately after his heresy was known, Damasus bishop of Rome, and Peter Bishop of Alexandria, caused a Synod to be gathered at Rome, where his heresy was condemned. Now for so much as the custom of Synods and Councils is, when they condemn the heresies, to excommunicate the heretics, (*) You understand not the story: for at this time Apollinaris was not fallen into his heresy. it is to be thought that that Council did excommunicate him, and that Theodotus Bishop of Laodicea, did execute that decree and excommunication. And in deed Sozomene doth so expound himself, when immediately after he had said that he did excommunicate him (a) Untruth, for these words are not spoken of Theodorus, but of Georgius his 〈◊〉, who excommunicated Apollinaris the second 〈◊〉. he addeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is that he declared him excommunicate, which indeed properly belongeth to the Minister, when the excommunication is decreed by those to whom it appertaineth, which thing may yet better appear by the manner of speech, which is used in another place, where speaking of Victor excommunicating Theodotus, he uttereth it by this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence which was decreed by others. Io. Whitgifte. Sozomene in that Chapter doth plainly declare that both the Apollinaries were Both the Apollinaries excommunicated by Theodotus. excommunicated by Theodotus, not for any heresy, but because they kept company with Epiphanius that wicked Sophister. Neither was Apollinaris as yet fallen to his heresy, as it is manifest in the story: for being upon repentance absolved by Theodotus, he was afterward again excommunicated by one George, the successor of Theodotus in his Bishopric, because he kept company with Athanasius, whom George being an Arrian could not abide. In this time of his excommunication, because he could not by any entreaty persuade George to receive him into the Church again, of purpose he published an heresy, for the which he was afterward condemned Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 25. in a Synod at Rome. And therefore saith the story: If George had received Apollinaris being repentant, like as Theodotus had done before, I suppose that this heresy had not been raised of him. So that you are far wide, and give great suspicion that either you have not read the story, or else of purpose mean to delude the Reader. The words that the story useth to signify, Theodotus excommunicating them, be these, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: did separate them from the Church. The words which you have recited be not spoken of Theodotus, but of George his successor, who also did excommunicate Apollinaris, not both the father and the son, as Theodotus did, but only the son (as I have said) before he fallen into his heresy, and therefore before he was condemned at Rome. So that he did not (as you say) execute the decree of that Council, but did himself excommunicate. Neither do the words help you one whit by any means, for what other thing can you gather thereof, but that he pronounced the sentence of excommunication against him? even as it is the manner in our Church, though he be excommunicated by the same person only, which pronounceth the sentence. And if that the right of excommunication had not been in George only, why is there mention that he would by no means be entreated to absolve him? For I am sure that you will Pag. 147. lin. 29. grant (and indeed you have before so affirmed) that absolution is of the same quality in this respect with excommunication: and it is there witnessed, that Apollinaris did oftentimes desire him to receive him again into the fellowship of the Church. So that it is manifest, that in those days, the Bishop alone did excommunicate. Chap. 1. the. 14. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 113. Lin. 9 Ambrose excommunicated. So did Ambrose excommunicate Theodosius the Emperor, and is therefore in all stories greatly commended. T. C. Pag. 148. in the end. As for Ambrose although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor, yet he was never commended for that he did excommunicate him himself alone, and if he did excommunicate him himself alone, yet his fault was the less, for somuch as he being desirous of an Eldership, could not as it seemeth by his complaint which I have spoken of before obtain one. And although the stories do not make mention that there were others whose authority came into this excommunication, yet it followeth not, that there were no other. And how often will you stumble at that which you do so sharply reprove in others, which is in making of arguments of authority negatively? And if you will not grant this manner of reasoning in the Scripture, in matters pertaining to the government of the Church, which are all comprehended in the scripture, how would you reason of a common story, which neither can nor doth profess to speak all those things, which fall into that matter which it writeth of? But what if so be it be proved, that Ambrose did not this of his own authority, but by the authority also of others, will you then confess that he is commended of all those which write stories for so doing, and confess that the use and practise of the primitive Church was far from this that is now? For proof whereof I will give you a place which Ambrose the best witness of this matter hath in one of his Epistles, where Epist. 38. he showeth that as soon as the murder which Theodosius had caused to be done at the City of Ambrose falsisyed. Thessalonica was herded, by & by the Bishops of France came, and there was held a Synod, where also Ambrose sayeth, that his communicating with Theodosius could not absolve him, for that as it may appear, the Bishops in that Synod had in excommunicating him, ordained that he should not be absolved, until such time as he had done repentance, which he did afterward Amb. li▪ de obitu Theo. with confession of his fault before the Congregation, and ask forgiveness of it. So it appeareth that that which he did, he did it by the sentence of the Synod, and not of his own authority alone. Io. Whitgifte. It is not to be read in any story, or other writer, that Ambrose ever sought to have an Eldership in his Church: for if he had so done, it is not like but that he might have obtained it, being of that credit and authority with the Emperor: only in speaking of the Eldership which consists of Priests only: he sayeth that he cannot tell upon what occasion it grew out of use. etc. but this is from the purpose. Ambrose is commended for excommunicating Theodosius, and▪ for excommunicating him Ambrose excommunicateth alone. alone, as it may appear in Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. and Sozomene lib. 7. cap: 24. For if he had used the assistance of other, the commendation of his courage and boldness, had not been so notorious and famous: neither is it like that the people dared join with their Bishop in such an enterprise against their Emperor, and if it had been done by any council of Bishops or Synod, to what end and purpose should Ambrose carry away all the fame and commendation, not one word once mentioned in any story of any other assistant unto him in that action? But what need I use these words, seeing the history reported both by Theodorete and Sozomene do very plainly testify the same. My argument is not negative from authority, but affirmative: for all stories that I have read do attribute this whole action of excommunicating Theodosius to Ambrose alone. Read the places of Theodoret and Sozomene, before mentioned, and you shall see that a man may safely conclude affirmatively, that Ambrose alone did both excommunicate and absolve him. Some of the late writers that have occasion to speak of this matter, do testify the same, as namely Master Gualther upon the. 1. Cor. 5. and therefore reproveth Ambrose his fact. But because you here charge me with so often reasoning from authority negatively, name one unto me that I have so used, or tell me why hitherto you have only espied this? Remember that you are a divine of whom it is required to speak truly. The Synod dso not excommunicate But say you: what if it be proved that Ambrose did not this of his own authority? and I say what if it be manifestly laid before your eyes, that you have not rightly Theodosius. collected of those places of Ambrose, and that they make not for your purpose, which you have here alleged for your proof? First your quotation in the margin is false: for Ambrose hath not one word of that matter in his. 38. Epistle, but that might be the fault of the Printer. That which he saith, is in his. 28. Epistle, the which also you have falsified, for there is not one word spoken of any excommunication used by that Synod, against Theodosius: only Ambrose saith, that when the Synod herded of it, every man lamented it, and took it in evil part: and that he himself could not admit him into his Communion, nor absolve him from that offence without due repentance. And that is his meaning when he saith: Non erat facti tui absolutio in Ambrosij communione. Which also the words following and the scope of the whole Epistle doth declare. For in that Epistle Ambrose doth exhort Theodosius to repentance for that fact, and after these words that I have recited, followeth immediately this sentence: The grievousness also of the fault should be Amb. Epist. 28. laid unto my charge the more, if no man should say that the reconciliation of our God were necessary. Art thou ashamed to do that, O Emperor, that the kingly Prophet David did? Whereby it is plain, that Ambrose in his letters signifieth unto the Emperor, that he must first repent him and be reconciled unto God, before he may admit him to communicate with him. Neither doth Ambrose say: that these Bishops were by and by gathered together as soon as this murder was herded of: neither was there any such cause of that Synod: but they being gathered together upon other occasions and before the murder was committed (as it will appear if you mark the words of Ambrose well) news was brought unto them of the murder, which they greatly lamented as I said before. There is not one word it that Epistle, whereof it can be gathered that either that Synod did excommunicate him, or ordain that he should not be absolved, until such time as he had done repentance: how much betwere it for you to repeat the words of the Author: but then should you spill your grace in counterfeiting. The second place of Ambrose lib de obitu Theodos. alleged to prove that Theodosius afterward confessed his fault before the congregation, and asked forgiveness of it, is more than needs: for that is not denied of any man: and Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. doth set that his submission and confession out in these words. So in the end Theod. li. 5. 18. Saint Ambrose absolved him, and the most faithful Emperor being bold to enter into the Church, prayed, not standing or kneeling, but lying prostrate upon the ground he uttered these words of David: My soul cleaveth unto the dust, quicken me according to thy word. And pulling his hear with his hands, and beating his face, and watering the ground with the drops of his tears, he asked forgiveness. But this proveth not that the people had any authority in excommunicating of him. In this Church of England, though the Bishop alone do excommunicate, Excommunicate people not received before public confession and repentance. yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious crime, is not received into the Church again, before he have made a public confession in the open Congregation, and asked pardon and forgiveness of his offence. Wherefore there is nothing yet alleged of any such force, to prove that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius. Chap. 1. the. 15. Division. Admonition. Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4▪ 6. etc. The sixteenth. In that the Lord Bishops, their Suffragans, Archdeacon's, chancellors, Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials, Proctors, Doctors, Summoners, and such ravening rablers, take upon them, which is most horrible, the rule of God's Church, spoiling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawful jurisdiction, over 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his own flock, given by the word, thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order which Christ hath left to his Church, and which the primitive Church hath used. 1. Tim. 4. 14▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 220. Sect. 1 And first you show yourself greatly offended, that the Pastor is spoiled of his lawful jurisdiction over his flock: & therefore you burst out into these words of heat, ravening rablers, horrible, sacrllegiously, and such like. It had been well if you had told us, what that lawful jurisdiction of the Pastor over his flock given by the word had been: For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose, do not plainly enough set out that matter. In the. 18. of Matthew vers. 17. after certain admonitions in private offences, Christ saith: Dir Ecclesiae: tell the Church. In which place (as I told you before) the Church doth signify such as have authority in the Church, or else public reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto. It giveth not any peculiar jurisdiction to the Pastor, for any thing that I can learn. And in the same Chapter. 18. verse, where Christ saith: what soever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, etc. according to your judgement uttered before, it is meant of the whole Church, and not of the Pastor only. You have before denied that one man can excommunicate, and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion. T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages, he speaketh of this thing afresh, but hath no new matter, but maketh a bore rehearsal of the places of the Admonition, ask after his accustomed manner of confuting, what maketh this, or what proveth that? only whereas he said before, and proved (as he thought) that the Minister had only to do with excommunication, being pressed there by the Admonition either to defend or renounce his chancellors, etc. He had rather deny both the truth and himself, than he would have any of that horrible confusion and profanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Popery, threatening the overthrow of the whole Church, and serving for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idleness of a few, to be driven out of the Church. Of the which I will upon occasion speak a word, if first I show that the use of the ancient Church hath been not to permit the excommunication to one, but that the sentence thereof should come from the governors and elders of the Church, unto whom that did especially appertain. Although I cannot posse by that which master Doctor sayeth, that for so much as the Authors of the Admonition had alleged the words (tell the Church) to prove the interest of the Church in excommunication, that therefore they could not use the same to prove the interest of the Pastor, as who should say that the Pastor is not one of the Church. But of the absurdity of this, I have spoken sufficiently before, and how all men do see the vanity of this reason, that because the people have an interest by this place, therefore the Pastor hath none. Io. Whitgifte. I do indeed speak of this matter there again after a sort: for I am driven unto it by the order of the Admonition. But in all those words there by me uttered, touching excommunication, I do not once ask, what maketh this, or what maketh that (as you charge me) although I might justly use these kind of questions, as sufficient answers, to such unskilful quotations, as they paint their margin with: and sometimes indeed I make such demands, but it is to show the fondness of their allegations. I defend no chancellors. etc. that usurp any office, whereunto they be not lawfully called, but I would not have the Scriptures abused to confute them, lest thereby (seeing the weakness of our reasons) they be animated rather to proceed, than persuaded to leave of. I do not think that Chancellors aught to excommunicate (with this kind of excommunication, that we talk of) except they be Ministers, and so much have I uttered in my Answer: but I will not disquiet the Church for it, by seeking reformation extraordinarily, neither will I be wilful, if I can hear any sound reasons to remove me from this persuasion: wherefore you do in this cause, and in this place unjustly charge me. The place in the eighteenth of Saint Matthew, is understanded of those, to whom the discipline of the Church, is by the authority of the Church committed, that is in this church of England, the Bishop. And therefore that place can not prove that there is any injury done to the Pastor, or that he is spoiled of his lawful: jurisdiction: and this is the effect of my answer, whereat you only cavil as your nature is. I say in deed that this place was before alleged in the Admonition to prove that the whole Church should excommunicate, and not one man only, and therefore I see not, how the same place may aptly be alleged, to prove any jurisdiction of the Pastor over his flock, seeing it giveth to the flock equal jurisdiction with the Pastor, and not to the Pastor any superiority over them, if the interpretation used in the Admonition be true. Let the Reader consider the words of my Answer to the Admonition: and try whether there be any such absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors, to make the Scripture so pliable to your fancies, and the same place to serve as many turns as you list. Chap. 1. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 149. past the midst. But I come to show the use of the primitive Church in this matter, whereof we have a manifest This place of Tertullian is very corruptly alleged. as will appear. testimony in Tertullian. If (sayeth he) there be any which have committed such a Tertull. in Apol. 39 c. sault, that he is to be put away from the partaking of the prayer of the church, and from all holy matters or affairs, there do bear rule or be presidents certain of the most approved ancients or elders, which have obtained this honour, not by money, but by good report. Io. Whitgifte. Here you have separated those things which Tertullian hath joined, and you join together in one sentence that which Tertullian hath separated, for thus he writeth: And it is a great argument and example of the latter judgement, if any man Tertull. in Apolog. cap. 39 hath so offended that he is banished from the communication of prayer, of company, and of all holy affairs. Here Tertullian maketh a full point: and beginning a new sentence he saith: Approved seniors have authority to rule, which have obtained this honour, not by money, but by a good report. etc. And these words be so distinguished from the other, that B. Rhenanus placeth his commentary betwixt them. And yet you join them with a piece of the former sentence, which you have also mangled: and so make as though Tertullian should say, that these Seniors did excommunicate, where as there can no such matter be gathered of his words. For there were other points of Discipline for them to execute, and other matters of government to look unto. And he that shall well weigh the words of Tertullian, shall perceive that he means by these approved elders, none other but ministers which do govern the congregation, when they come together to prayer, and other holy actions, the whole order whereof, he doth in that place describe. But be it, that they had to do also in excommunication (which I will not deny) for I did never so give the authority of excommunicating to the Bishop alone, that The Bishop may have assistance joined with him. I think he may not have other assistance joined unto him for the execution of it, (if the order of the Church so require:) yet this proveth not, but that the Bishop may excommunicate alone, if that authority be given unto him by the order of the church. This place rather maketh against you, for first it is like, that these Seniors were ministers of the word and Sacraments: than it is certain that the multitude had not to do in the execution of this discipline, which you labour to prove. There can no great certainty be gathered of this place, whether one or more did excommunicate: except you will also conclude that Churchewardens and sidemen (because they be officers to see good rule kept in the Church) have interest in excommunications, together with the Bishop. Wherefore I do require a more manifest proof of you: For this place may with more probability be otherwise expounded, and therefore enforceth nothing. Chap. 1. the. 17. Division. T. C. Pag. 149. towards the end. And that the ancients had the ordering of these things, and the people's consent was required, and that if the case were a very difficult case, it was referred unto the Synods or councils, and that the ministers did not take upon them of their own authority to excommunicate, and that those which did receive the excommunicate without the knowledge and consent Lib. 3. ep. 8. 10. 14. 19 1. lib. 3. ep. of the church were reprehended, it may appear almost in every page of Cyprians Epistles, and namely in these, which I have noted in the margin. Io. Whitgifte. Thus you drive me to seek that which in those Epistles by you quoted, I can not find, how much better dealing had it been to have set down the words of Cyprian, that they might have been viewed and considered. In the. 8. Epistle of the third book, Cyprian doth find himself gréened with one Therapius, because he gave peace to one Victor a Priest, before he had showed himself fully repentant, and had satisfied for his offence: before also the time was come appointed unto him to make satisfaction, likewise without the request and knowledge of the people. Whereby it appeareth that Therapius did absolve Victor before the time appointed, and secretly without the knowledge of the people: but this proveth not your purpose. Therapius is justly reproved for breaking the order appointed by the Church, and for absolving Victor before his time, and in a corner, without the knowledge of the people: but this proveth not that the bishop may not excommunicate: but the contrary rather, for Cyprian in the end thought this absolution to be sufficient, as it appeareth in these words. But weighing the matter by long advise, it seemed sufficient to chide our fellow Lib. 3. epi. 8. Therapius, for that he did this thing unadvisedly, and to have instructed him that hereafter he commit not the like. But yet we thought not good to withdraw the peace which was once given, (howsoever) of a Priest of God: and for this cause we have permitted unto Victor, to use the Communion delivered unto him. Whereby it is manifest, that the absolution of Therapius was thought good, and that he had authority to absolve alone, but that it was done not according to the order then in the church appointed. In the tenth Epistle there is nothing spoken of Excommunication or absolution: Epist. 10. only Cyprian sayeth, that he made no answer to the Letters of Donatus and Novatus, and Gordius, because at his first entrance into his bishopric, he had determined to do nothing without their Council, meaning the Priests, and Deacons to whom he written, and without the consent of the people. What can you conclude hereof touching excommunication? Cyprian here showeth himself to have jurisdiction over other Churches, and authority over other Ministers, and that he will do nothing in doubtful matters in their churches, without the consent of the ministers and people. But this is nothing toiuchng excommunication, neither doth it prove but that he might do things without their consents, for why should he else say: statui: I have determined: signifying thereby, that it was in his power to do otherwise if he would. In the. 14. Epistle he reproveth certain Priests, for receiving into the church Epist. 14. without the consent of their Bishop, such as had fallen in the time of persecution, and that before they had any just trial of their repentance, adding that none aught so to be received, but Per manus impositionem Episcopi & Cleri: by the imposition of the hands of the Bishop and Clergy. I can not see any thing in this Epistle, that giveth the people any interest in excommunicating or absolving. But this is evidently to be collected out of it, that no such thing aught to be done without the authority of the Bishop. In the. 19 Epistle he writeth, that he will not take upon himself alone to restore Epist. 9 those to the Church again, who falling in the time of persecution, were condemned by the judgement of all the Clergy. I know not how you will frame this to your purpose: for who ever denied but that the Synods might excommunicate? and who will grant, that such as be orderly and lawfully excommunicated by many, should be absolved and reconciled only by one: and yet in that they desire this at Cyprians hands alone, it argueth, that the manner was at that time for one man to absolve: but Cyprian refused to do it, for that it was a common cause, and they had been Excommunicated by the common consent of the Clergy. In the third Epistle of his first Book, I find nothing that maketh for you, or against me, wherefore you must take the pains to recite his words, before you Lib. 1. epist. 3. can deserve any credit. Thus whilst you would seem to say much, you do but abuse the Reader, and in the end say nothing pertaining to the controversy. Chap. 1. the. 18. Division. T. C. Pag. 149. Sect. ult. In Augustine's time it appeareth also, that the consent of the Church was required: for in 3. Lib. contra epi. Parmen. the third book against the epistle of Parmenian, he showeth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault, for which one is to be excommunicated: that then it helpeth much to make the party both afraid and ashamed, that he be excommunicated or anathematised (as he calleth it) by all the church, and in his books de Bap. contra Donatistas', in divers places, he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man that he seemeth to fall into the other extremity, which is to make the estate of the church to popular, and the people to have to great a sway. For there he showeth, that if the most of the people be infected with the fault, which is to be punished by excommunication, that then no excommunication ought to be attempted, for (a) An untruth. because a sufficient number of voices will not be obtained for the excommunication. By which testimonies, besides the institution of God, and the practice of the churches in the Apostles times, appeareth manifestly what hath been the use of the churches touching excommunication, as long as there was any purity in the church. Io. Whitgifte. Augustine in that third book contra epistolam Parmeniani, saith, that he would have When excommunication should be used. excommunication then used, when the use thereof can make no schism in the church. that is, when the crime for the which a man is excommunicated, is such, as all men for the most part, do abhor and detest: so that the offender can not have so many Aug. lib. 3. contra episto. Parm. fautors as are able to make a schism in the church: for then (saith S. Augustine) may this discipline be executed without the breach of peace and unity, and without the hurt of the people, when the multitude of the congregation of the church is free from that crime, that is excommunicated. For then (the multitude) help rather the Bishop reproving, than the wicked party resisting, than it profitably absteineth from his company, so that no man doth so much as eat with him, not for raging envy, but for brotherly correction and then also is the party himself strike with fear, and healed through shame, when as (seeing himself accursed of the whole church) he can find no companions amongst the multitude, with whom he might rejoice in his sin, and insult over good men. Whereby it is evident that S. Augustine means him to be excommunicated of the How the whole church is said to excommunicate. whole church, not whom the whole church doth ex officio excommunicate, but whose Excommunication the whole Church doth well like of, whose fact the whole Church doth detest, and whose company and fellowship the whole Church doth avoid and eschew. Surely if a man mark the words of Augustine diligently, he may well perceive that Saint Augustine giveth Ius excommunicandi, to the Bishop: for else why should he say, that when the people be free from that crime: they rather help the Bishop correcting, than the wicked person resisting: But the discrete Reader may soon understand how far Saint Augustine is in this place from confirming your assertion. S. Augustine writeth seven books De baptism contra Donatistas', and will you not vouchsafe to name one of them unto me? nor yet to recite his words, that I might know whereupon you ground this popular kind of government falsely ascribed unto him? it may be that Augustine in your understanding, attributeth more to the people than he doth in deed: and it is not unlike, but that lack of diligent reading hath driven you into this judgement of him. But I will give you a medicine How Augustine is to be understood in ascribing binding and l sing to the people. for this disease, even out of these books that you name. In the sixte Book and fourth Chapter, he seemeth to give authority to all Christian people to remit and to retain sins, and these words of christ: Si cui dimiseritis peccata, dimittuntur ei. etc. To whom soever you forgive sins, they are forgiven unto him. etc. to be spoken to all Christians, but he openeth his own meaning, and teacheth you how to understand all such like kind of speeches: for thus he sayeth in the same Book and chapter. When sins are remitted unto him that is truly converted unto God, August. lib. 6. contra Donatist. cap. 4. they are remitted by those, to whom he is joined by his true conversion, for the same holy spirit doth forgive them, which is given to all Saints, joined in love among themselves, whether they know one an other corporally or not: likewise when any man's sins are retained, they be retained of those from whom he that hath his sins retained, doth separate himself by dissimilitude of life, and wickedness of heart, whether they know him corporally, or know him not. Here you may learn what Saint Augustine means by his popular state, and how he is to be understanded, when he sayeth, that either the whole Church, or the people do excommunicate, or absolve. I would you had noted unto me, where I might find this saying of saint Augustine, that if the most of the people be infected with the fault which is to be punished by excommunication, that then no excommunication ought to be attempted, for because a sufficient number of voices will not be obtained for the excommunication. For I promise' you I can not as yet come to the sight of it in those books of S. Augustine by you named: neither can you tell me (as I think) where to find it: but this is your usual manner and custom. In deed in his third book contra Epist▪ Parmeniani, and second chapped. he hath a place August. lib. 3. con p. Par men. cap. 2. something like to this of yours, but it is from your purpose, neither doth it tend to any such end as you allege it, for the words be these: Re vera si contagio peccandi multitudinem invaserit, divinae disciplinae severa misericordia necessaria est, nam consilia separationis & inania sunt, & perniti sa, atque sacrilega, quia & impia & superba fiunt, & plus perturbant infirmos bonos, quàm corrigunt animosos malos, Verily if the contagion of sin hath infected the multitude, the severe mercy of godly discipline is necessary, for the purpose of separation is both vain, pernicious and sacrilegious, because they are both wicked and presumptuous, and do more trouble the good that be weak, than correct or amend the evil that be stubborn. Saint Augustine doth not here allege this for a cause, that sufficient voices can not be obtained for excommunication. as you pretend: but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vain, where the infection is general. But that it may further appear the doctrine that I affirm touching the authority Ex mmunication by bishops proved by the practice of the primi church. of Bishops in excommunicating to be true, and to have been the usual practice of the Church in the best time and state of it: I thought good in this place to add to my former testimonies and answers, the authority of certain Counsels, wherein the practise of the Church doth evidently show itself. And first to begin with the Canons attributed to the Apostles, and so oft alleged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some books the. 33. of those Canons, it is thus decreed: Can. Apost. 32. If any Priest or Deacon be excommunicated of his Bishop, it may not be lawful for any other to receive him, but only the party that hath separated him, except that Bishop die which hath excommunicated him: in this Canon power to excommunicate, and also to absolve, is in plain words committed to the Bishop alone. The fift Canon of the Council of Nice speaketh of this matter in these words: Con. Nicae. can. 5. Concerning those that are separated from the Communion, be they clerk or lay men, by the Bishops which are in every province, Let the sentence stand according to the canon which doth pronounce those that are ejected of some, not to be admitted of other. But let it be examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation, or contention, or frowardness of the Bishop: and for this cause, that the examination may be duly had, let there be in every Province a Synod celebrated twice in the year. The words be manifest: and what need such pr sion for to examine the doings of the Bishop, if he had not authority to Excommunicate alone? The sixte Canon of the Council of Antic he is this: If any man hath been excommunicated Con. Anti ch. Can. 6. of his own Bishop, let him not be received of any other, before he be absolved of his own Bishop, or shall defend himself in a Synod, and (the Synod being persuaded) receive an other sentence. The same decree is to be observed against lay men, and Priests and Deacons, and those that be in the number of the Clergy: Why should the Council say? ee that is excommunicated of his own Bishop. etc. if the authority and power of excommunicating did not belong to the Bishop alone? In the second Council of Carthage, Canon. 8. it is likewise determined, That Con. Carthag. 2. can. 8. if a Priest being excommunicated or punished by his own Bishop, shall presume to celebrated, he shall be accursed. In the sixte Council of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed. Con. Carthag. 6. can. 10. In the Council held at Sardica Can. 13. (or as it is in s me ookes. 16.) it is in like manner decreed: That if a De con or a Priest, or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic. Can. 13. of his own Bishop, and shall flee to an other Bishop, understanding that he is excommunicated of his own Bishop, he may not give unto him the communion, doing thereby injury to his brother and fellow Bishop. By all these Canons and ancient Counsels it is evident, that from time to time even in the best and purest state of the church, Bishops alone have had authority to excommunicate. And lest T. C. should here flee to his old shift, and newly devised distinction, The Bishop did excommunicate alone, not as rator of the action. that this is attributed to the Bishop, because he was the chief of the action, and did moderate it, and not because the authority and power of excommunicating remained in him alone, although the manifest words of the councils over▪ throw it, and it is not to be justified by any learning or good authority, yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better understand the vanity of it, I will recite the. 14. Canon (or can. 14. as it is in some books the. 17. canon) of this Council of Sardica, wherein it doth plainly appear, that the Bishop alone did excommunicate. The canon is this: If there shall be found a Bishop prove to anger (which aught not to be in such a man) and being soon moved against a Priest or a Deacon, shall cast him out of the church, or excommunicate him, it must be foreseen, that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated: therefore let him that is cast out, have liberty to complain to the Metropolitan of the same Province: if he be absent, then to the next Bishop. etc. and that Bishop which hath justly or unjustly secluded him, must be content to have his doings examined, and his sentence either confirmed or corrected, etc. What need these affections be seared in the Bishop, if he could not excommunicate without the consent of a Signiory, or of the people? For the Signiory might well enough withstand this his hastiness. Wherefore it is plain that the Bishop alone may excommunicate. But yet to cut off all further cavilling, I would have you to understand that I do not so give the authority of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone, The authority of excommunication ascrided to the Bishop not in mite, but l ces. or to any one man, that I think he may excommunicate when he list, without just cause and due proof of the same: my meaning is not to make him both accuser and judge: I do not think that he ought to excommunicate any before the party be orderly and lawfully convicted of such crime or crimes, as are to be punished by that Censure. And that you may know that I affirm nothing herein but the very same that Saint Augustine hath affirmed before me, The practice in Augustins time. and to the intent the world may see that my opinion in this point is not strange or void of sufficient authority, I will set down his words, as I find them in his book De utilitate & necessitate poenitentiae, and reported of Beda in Augustinus. To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries upon the first Corinth. 5. Although some things be true, yet the judge must not believe them, unless they be sufficiently proved. And we can forbid no man from the communion (although this prohibition be not mortal but medicinable) except he either willingly confess it, or be accused and convicted, either in some secular or ecclesiastical court: for who dare take unto himself to be both accuser and judge? And this is my judgement of the authority of Bishops in excommunicating. The abuses crept into this Church in the executing of it, I do not defend (as it is manifest in my Answer) but wish them by due order and authority with speed reform. Chap. 1. the. 19 Division. T. C. Pag. 150. Lin. 7. And it is to be observed here, that both in this part of the discipline, and also in all other parts of it (as I have showed) as in harder and difficulter causes, things were referred unto the Synods provincial, national or general, as the case required: so if the elders of any Church shall determine any thing contrary to the word of God, or inconveniently in any matter that falls into their determination, the parties which are grieved may have recourse for remedy, unto the elders and Pastors of divers Churches, that is to say unto Synods of Shires, or dioceses, or provinces, or nations of as great or of as small compass as shall be thought conventent by the Church, according to the difficulty or weight of the matters, which are in controversy, which meetings aught to be as often as can be conveniently, not only for the decision of such difficulties which the several presoyteries cannot so well judge of, but also to the end that common counsel might be taken for the best remedy of the vices or incommodities which either the Churches be in, or in danger to be in. And as those things which cannot be decided by the eldership of the Churches, are to be reserved unto the knowledge of some Synod of a shire or diocese, so those which for their hardness cannot be there decided, must be brought into the Synods of larger compass, as I have showed to have been done in the Apostles times, and in the Churches which followed them long after. Io. Whitgifte. So shall there be turbarum & contentionum satis: much unquietness: for one or two busy Pastors, such as your school can yield good store of, would invent matter enough The tumultuous and does orderly order propounded by the replier. to trouble the whole Church: and Pastors should then be compelled to be as much absent from their benefices, by reason of those Synods, as they be now upon other occasions. Lord what a tumultuous Church would this be, if this plat for me might take place? In the mean while the Prince should be a cipher, and only wait to understand what kind of Religion ceremonies, and government these signiories and their Synods would prescribe unto her to maintain and defend: for the must have potestatem facti only, not juris: she must take laws, she must give none: she must execute whatsoever it pleaseth master Pastors and their Seniors to command her, else will they stir up the whole country against her, at the lest she must be excommunicated: me thinketh I see the very beginning of a new Popedom. Have you showed this confused order to have been in the Apostles time or in the primitive Church? T. C. ascribeth his own devise to the Apostles. Where have you showed it? or when will you prove it? Synods there were indeed: and necessary it is that when occasion serveth they should be: but your Signiory in every Town or parish under a Christian Prince never was, neither is it possible that without confusion it should be, as I have before declared. But what audacity is this, to ascribe an order invented by yourself (upon the which, scarce three of you do agree, if you were well examined, and in the which yourself, or ever it were long, would espy some thing to be altered) unto the Apostles? Of bishops Courts, and their officers. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 1 These things standing in this sort, all those courts of Bishops and archbishops must needs fall, which were by Antichrist erected, against this lawful jurisdiction of eldership, as the court of faculties, and those which are held by Chancellors, commissaries, officials, and such like, the describing of the corruptions whereof, would require a whole book, of which I will note the principal heads and sums. Io. Whitgifte. And not these courts only, but all the courts in England would be devoured up of your Signiory: yea each the Princes regal authority, as may appear partly by that which is said before, and partly by that which shall follow hereafter. For what jurisdiction will not your Signiory usurp? what matters would it not presume to determine? what degree of person would it not tread under foot? but let us hear what you say of these courts. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 2. First for that they enter into an office, which pertaineth not unto them, but to every particular Church, and especially to the eldership and governors of the Church, and therefore although they should do nothing but that which were good, lawful and godly, yet can they not approve their labours unto men, much less to God, putting their sickle in another man's harvest. For neither by the truth of the word of God, doth that appertain unto them, neither by M. Doctors own judgement (if his yea were yea, and his nay nay) considering that he said before, that this jurisdiction belongeth to the ministers. And although it should pertain unto the Bishop (as he is called) to whom notwithstanding it doth not appertain, yet were it not lawful for him to translate this office unto another, and to appoint one to do it, when he listeth, no more than he can appoint them to do his other offices of ministering, as preaching the word and ministering the sacraments. Io. Whitgifte. Your several government by eldership in every parish, I utterly reject: as neither justifiable by God's word, nor any example of any church at any time, under a Christian prince, in that manner and form by you prescribed. The court of faculties meddleth not with excommunications. The courts of Chancellors. etc. have many more matters to deal withal than excommunication, for that is but one part of discipline, that they use or aught to use, only upon an extremity, concerning the which discipline and the ministers thereof, I am of the self same same judgement that I was before, and my yea is yea, Gualther in .1▪ Cor. 5. and my nay is nay. And yet it I will tell you what I have read since in M Gualters' commentaries upon the. 1. Cor. 5. If any would appoint some kind of separation, or shutting out, which should be executed by a lawful magistrate, and should rather be civil A kind of civil excommunication. than ecclesiastical, we will not be against them. For the laws of our cities also do punish them with excommunication, which are very negligent in hearing sermons, and in the use of the Lords supper, and furthermore which do offend the Church with their wicked life. For such if they live in the city, they are thrown out of the fellowship of the wards or companies so that they can buy and cell with no man: neither are they capable of any honour or public office: But if they devil in the country, they are kept from the use of the common pastnres and woods. And this way is most meet for us, let other cities and countries do that which they think to be most profitable for their people: for so much as it is evident, that the same form of discipline cannot be appointed and observed in all places. I wish the other removed from those Courts, and this in the place of it. But that Bishops may lawfully use the true ecclesiastical excommunication, I have proved before. Deny it you as often as you will, you can show no sound reason or ground of your denial. Chap. 2. the third Division. T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3 And other thing is, that in these courts (which they call spiritual) they take the knowledge of matters which are ere civil, thereby not only perverting the order which God hath appointed in severing the civil causes from the ecclesiastical, but (*) A manifest untruth. justling also with the civil Magistrate, and thrusting him from the jurisdiction, which appertaineth unto him, as the causes of the contracts of marriage, of divorces, of wills and testaments, with diverse other such like things. For although it apperteme to the Church and the governors thereof, to show out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or just cause of divorce, and so forth, yet the judicial determination, and definitive sentences of all these, do appertain unto the civil Magistrate. Hereunto may be added, that all their punishments almost are penalties of money, which can by no means appertain to the Church, but is a thing merely civil. Io. Whitgifte. We give to the civil magistrate authority in ecclesiastical causes: and we acknowledge Ecclesiastical courts executed in the princes name. all jurisdiction, that any court in England hath or doth exercise, be it civil or ecclesiastical, to be executed in her majesties name and right, and to come from her as supreme governor, so far are we off from justling with her, or thrusting her from the jurisdiction which pertaineth unto her: neither do we make any such distinction betwixt civil and ecclesiastical causes, as the Pope and you do. And therefore we Who they are that justle with the civil magistrate. are not they that detract any thing from the civil magistrate, but it is the Pope and you: who both thrust him from the jurisdiction, that by the law of God and all equity he aught to have in Ecclesiastical matters. God hath not so severed civil causes from Ecclesiastical, but that one man may be judge in them both: and if it pertain to the Church to declare what is a lawful contract, & which be the just causes of divorce, by what reason can you prove that the judicial determination and definitive sentence of those matters, doth pertain to the civil magistrate only? For is not he most meet to judge in these causes, which best understandeth them? but both this and that which followeth, you speak without reason, and therefore the custom of the Church, and the laws appointed for the same, now also received and confirmed by the civil magistrate, with the consent of the whole Realm, must be of greater force than your single words. Chap. 2. the fourth Division. T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. ult. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not appertain unto the Ecclesiastical jurisdiction, so those which do appertain unto the Church, they do turn from their lawful institution, unto other ends not sufferable, which M. Doctor himself doth confess in excommunicating for money. etc. Io. Whitgifte. So I do indeed: but it is the fault of the man not of the law. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1 Last of all they take upon them those things, which are neither lawful for civil nor ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nor simply for any man to do, of which sort diverse are reckoned up by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor. I will not here speak of the unfitness of those which are chief officers in these courts, that the most of them are either Papists, or bribers, or drunkards, (I know what I writ) or Epicures and such as live of benefices and Prebends, in England and in Ireland, doing nothing of those things which appertain unto them, and of other such naughty people, which are not only not meet to be governors in the Church, but which in any reform Church, should not be so much as of the Church. I speak not of all, I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience, and with mind to help forward the Church, which I trust will (when the Lord shall give them more knowledge) keep themselves in their vocations, and being men, for their gifts apt and able either to serve the Church or the common wealth, in some other calling, will rather occupy their gifts there, than where they have no ground to assure themselves, that they do please God. Io. Whitgifte. For as much as you refer us to the Admonition to know what these things be that Chancellors. etc. take upon them, being lawful neither for civil nor ecclesiastical jurisdiction, I will also refer you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition. Your slanderous and opprobrious speeches against the men (having little to say A taste of the Repliers divinity. against their offices) they must take in good part until you come forth namely to accuse them: but I am sorry that they (being as you say such people) shall have little occasion to be persuaded to amendment of life by you, whom they see as factious in religion, as they are peevish in condition: as corrupt with affections, as they be with bribes: as deep in spite and malice, as they be in drunkenness: What divinity call you this, thus to libel against men in authority, whom you dare not accuse to their faces? I defend them not if there be any such, nay I wish them severely punished: but you utter nothing less than the fruits of divinity, and I would have you come forth to accuse them. Touching their benefices and prebends, they will defend themselves by the examples of your adherentes: whereof some have shaken off the ministery, and yet keep their Prebends, some misliking the state of this Church, crying out of the Canon law, the Court of faculties. etc. take notwithstanding all the benefit thereby that they can, some of them retaining two, some 4. etc. and yet do full little duty, nay raze up rather than plant. But why do I fall into this vain, which I mislike in you? I am thereunto forced by your intolerable outrageousness, the which howsoever I suffer against myself, yet may I be bold something to say unto you, thus swelling and raging against other. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. Admonition. These Seniors then, because their charge was not overmuch, did execute their office in their own people, without substitutes. Our lord Bishops have their under officers, as Suffragans, Chancellors, Archdeacon's, Officials, Commissaries, and such like. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. 3. 4. You barely affirm without any proof, that these Seniors than Of substitutes or vicars. did execute their offices in their own people without substitutes: but your bore word is not of sufficient credit, although I think you will make a great difference betwixt Seniors and Bishops: for they whom you call Seniors had no authority to preach, or to minister the Sacraments as Bishops have. That Bishops might have substitutes and had so, it is manifest in the. 13. Canon. Ancyrani Concilij, which was about the year of our Lord three hundred and eight, and before Nicene council, where we read on this sort: Vicarijs Episcoporum (quos Graeci Chorepiscopos vocant) non licet vel presbyteros Concil. Ancyran. vel diaconos ordinare, sed nec presbyteris Civitatis, sine Episcopi praecepto, amplius aliquid ordinare, nec sine authoritate literarum eius in unaquaque parochia aliquid agere. It is not lawful for bishops substitutes, (whom the Grecians do call fellow Bishops or coadjutors) to order either priests or Deacons, neither is it lawful to the priests of the city, without the bishops authority to command any thing else, or without the authority of his letters to do any thing in any parish. It is manifest hereby that Bishops than had Deputies, whether you will call them Chancellors, Commissaries etc. the matter is not great. To contend for the name, when the thing is certain, is a note of a contentious person. T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1 Now I will take a short survey of that which M. Doctor allegeth to prove his offices of M. of faculties, Chancellors etc. First he says in the. 117. page out of the Ancyran council, that there were vicars of Bishops, where although the name be not found of Chancellors. etc. yet there is (says he) the office. What vicar S. Paul's Bishop may have and in what case, I have showed before, where I have proved the necessary residence of every Pastor in his flock. But I will note here how M. Doctor doth go about to abuse his Reader in these vicars. And first where there were three editions, of which one only maketh mention of these vicars, he took that and left the other, which is to be observed, for that this variety of editions rose of the diverse understanding of the Greek word (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) which may be taken either for him that is bishop for another and in his place, or for him that is Bishop in the country, that is in some town which is no city, so that Chorepiscopus, was opposed unto the Bishop which was of some city. And if it be so taken, then here is no proof for the vicars of Bishops. But howsoever it be, it shall appear that the names of Chancellors, and Chorepiscopos do not so much differ, as the offices and functions of them. For it appeareth in the same council and Canon, (*) An untruth, for there is no such thing in that canon nor council. that they were like the. 70. disciples, that they had also some care to provide for the poor, and that they were such as did minister the sacraments. And in another council they have authority given them to make Antioch cap. 10. Subdeacons, exorcists, and readers. I know this was a corruption of the ministery, but yet all men see, how M. Doctor looketh as it were a far of upon things, and therefore taketh a man for a olehill, when he would make us believe that these were Chancellors. etc. Io. Whitgifte. My purpose is to prove that which the Admonition denieth, that is, that Bishops had their substitutes, call them by what name you will: neither do I speak either of the names, or office of Chancellors in that place, but I reprove the Authors of the Admonition of ignorance, for saying that Bishops had then no substitutes. You have showed nothing hitherto which proveth that Bishops may have no substitutes, but you have declared rather the contrary, as it is by me in that place noted. How I abuse the reader in these vicars, and what choice I make of these three editions, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bishops vicars. let the Authors of the Centuries judge: who speaking of the same matter Cent. 4. cap. 7. writ thus: Episcoporum vicarios Canon's conciliorum Ancyrani Neocaesariensis & Antiocheni (si quam fidem habent) Chorepiscopos nominant. etc. The canons of the councils of Ancyra, Neocaesarea, and Antioch (if they bear any credit) do call Cent. 4. cap. 7. the vicars of Bishops Chorepiscopos, which word also is extant in the. 54. epist. of Basile And Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 14. calleth one Maureandas Chorepiscopum of Bicoris Bishop of the Persians. M Caluine in his Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 52. is of the same judgement. Every College (says he) only for the preservation of order Caluine. & concord, was subject to one Bishop, which did so excel the rest in dignity, that notwithstanding, he was subject to the company of brethren. But if the circuit which was under his Bishopric was larger, than that he could sufficiently perform the office of a Bishop in all places, there were priests appointed in certain places through the country which supplied his room in smaller matters. These they called Chorepiscopos, because through the province they represented the Bishops. You may therefore now understand, that I have not go about to abuse the Reader by using this word Uicares, but rather that yourself did not, or would not understand what was meant by this word Chorepiscopus. You say it appeareth in the same council and Canon, (meaning the council of Ancyran and 13. Canon) that they were like the. 70. disciples, that they had also some care to protude for the poor, and that they were such as did minister the sacraments: and yet there is not one word of this in that Canon or in that council: whereby it appeareth that some man hath deceived you with his collections, and that you have not read the Canon or the council yourself. The Canon I have reported wholly and truly, in my Answer to the Admonition. Let the Reader measure your great skill and reading, by such gross errors. Indeed in the council of Neocaesarea and. 13. Canon: there are the like words to be found. All that which you speak to prove that the office of these Chorepiscopi, doth differ from the office of Chancellors is peerless: (although it is no good reason to says they differ in some points, Ergo, they agree in no points) my purpose only in this place is to prove against the Admonition (as I have said) that bishops had substitutes, which being granted, it will soon fallout that they may as well have Chancellors. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. Admonition. In stead of Chancellors, Archdeacon's, Officials, Commissaries, Proctors, Doctors, summoners, Churchwardens and such like, you have to place in every congregation a lawful and godly Seigntorie. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 125. Sect. 2. That is, in stead of learned, wise, and discreet men, you must place to govern the Church in every congregation, unlearned, ignorant, and men most unapt to govern, for such of necessity you must have in most congregations. Chap. 2. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 2. In the. 125. page to the Admonition desiring that these may be removed and the eldership established according to gods order, M. Doctor answereth, that that were to place in stead of wise, and discreet men, unlearned, ignorant and unapt to rule. Let M. Doctor take heed, jest in allowing so well of the popish ceremonies, not only as tolerable, but as fit, and then acquainting himself with the papists manner of speaking, in saying that the people be ignorant and unlearned, he fall or ever he be ware into some worse thing. Moses in Deuteronomy, and Solomon in his Deut. 4. Proverbs, place the principal wisdom in keeping Gods commandments and in fearing God. Prou. 1. And David saith, that the secrets and the priute council of the Lord, is known to those which Psa. 25. fear him, and I have showed out of S. Paul, that he giveth to the spiritual man great discretion 1. Cor. 2. and judgement of things. If therefore there be in every Church which fear God and keep his commandments, there are both wise and learned and discreet en, and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh. And God be praised there are numbers in the Church, that are able to be teachers unto most of the Chancellors, in any matter pertaining to the Church, and are able to give a riper judgement in any ecclesiastical matter, than the most part of them can. Io. Whitgifte. Who knoweth not that the people for the most part be ignorant, unlearned, and The people for the most part unap to govern. unapt to govern? you know what Chrysostom saith of them Hom. 2. in joh. And yet I do not take from them sufficient knowledge in things pertaining to their salvation, nor that wisdom that Solomon or David speaketh of: nor yet the discretion that S. Paul means. 1. Cor. 2. But is every man that shall be saved, apt to rule and govern? or doth Christ pour into them such gifts and graces miraculously as he did in the beginning of the Church? cometh learning, wisdom, aptness to govern, and such like, by inspiration only, and not by means? I know there are many of the people that fear God, and are sober and discreet, the Lord increase the number of them: but on the other side you must know, that some there be (and that not the smallest number) that think better of themselves than they deserve: And I suppose that no man will deny the most part to be unfit for such functions: and that even of those that are godly, many are far unmeet to The absurdity of the Repliers assertion govern. But if your reason be sound, then may the basest and simplest man keeping gods commandments, and fearing him, be as apt to govern, as the wisest man, the most learned, and of best experience in a whole country, which is to great an absurdity, and to popular an argument. True it is, that to keep gods commandments, and to fear him, is requisite Godliness required in governors, but all that be godly are not meet to govern. and necessary in a governor: but yet (as I say) not all those that fear God and keep his commandments be apt and meet to govern. These be the chief points of heavenly wisdom, which bring salvation, and which teach a man to govern himself in those things that pertain to eternal life: but there are other things also necessarily required in such as take upon them the government of others: except you will say with the Anabaptists, Christianis non est opus magistratu: Christians have no need of a magistrate. There may be therefore in every Church, wise, learned, and discreet men, in matters pertaining to themselves, and to their own salvation, and yet not meet to govern others: there may be also meet men to govern others, but yet peradventure by the more part, (which is commonly evil disposed) put back from the Signiory. In a word, God hath appointed the multitude how godly and learned All the Repliers arguments tend to popularity. soever they be, to obey and not to rule, unless indeed you will make the state popular, to the which all your arguments tend. Chap. 2. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. ult. 〈◊〉 besides that the choicest are to be taken to this office, this aught not to be forgotten, that seeing good success of things depend upon the blessing of God, and that blessing followeth the Church when the Lords order is kept, simple men which carry no great countenance or show, will undoubtedly do more good unto the Church, having a lawful calling, than those of great port which have no such calling. Io. Whitgifte. But how will you bring it to pass that the choicest may be taken? for if the election go by the whole parish (as it must) then is it a thing unpossible to be brought to pass in many parishes, the most part being evil affected, except you will use violence, and compulsion, which is against the liberty that you seek for. The lords order is kept when due obedience is given to the civil magistrate, & other that be How the lords order is kept. placed under him, to govern the church of God. For of this we have express mention to the R . 13. 1. Ti. 2. 1. Pet. 2. & it is confirmed by the examples of the old church under Moses, om. 13. josua, David, Solomon, jehosaphat, Ezechias, josias, and all other godly kings and . Tim. 2. judges. Likewise the order of God is kept, when next to this supreme governor under 1. Pet. 2. God, we reverence & obey in the Ecclesiastical state, such as god hath appointed to take the chief care & government of the Church, under the Prince, be they archbishops, Bishops or such like. And thereof also we have express warrant in the word of God and that such as admitteth no other interpretation: as 1. Tim. 3. Lit. 1. Hebr. 13. but as for 1. Tim. 3. your order of Seniors, and kind of government, you have no such warrant in the T t. . word of God. And the places that you use for your purpose be doubtful, and diversly Heb. 13. interpreted by learned men: wherefore not sufficient to ground any certain doctrine upon, being of faith and of salvation, as you have said before, the kind of government to be. Wherefore it is you that disturb and seek to overthrow the order of government appointed by God, and therefore in the end, you must look to be overthrown yourself. To your imagination of transforming simple, unap , and unlearned men to an aptness and 〈◊〉 of government, if your platform were placed. I will only answer that which Master Bullinger did to a fantasse of the Anabaptists not much unlike: You imagine and conceive in your mind those things, which never have been, nor are extant, and shall never hereafter be. Chap. 2. the. 10. Division. Admonition. The nineteenth. What should we speak of the Archbishop's Court, sith all men know it, and your wisdom cannot but see what it is. As all other Courts are subject to this, by the Pope's To prove that the regiment of the Church should be spiritual, ade, ph. 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13 1. Tim. 1. 2. Heb. 10. 30 〈◊〉, yea and by statute of this Realm yet unxepealed, so is it the filthy quave ire, & poisoned plash of all the abominations that do infect the whole Realm. We speak not of licences granted out of this Court, to marry in forbidden times, as in Lent, in Aduent, in the gang week, when ban ers and bells, with the Priest in his surplice, singing Gospels and making crosses, rangeth about in many places, upon the ember days and to forbidden people, & in exempt places. We make no mention of licences, to eat white meat, and flesh in Lent, and that with a safe conscience, for rich men that can buy them with money, nor we say nothing how dearly men pay for them. s for dispensations with beneficed voyes, tollerations for non reudents, bulls to have two benefices, to have three, to have more, and as many as they list or can get, these are so common, that all godly and good men are compelled with grief of heart, to cry out upon such abominations. We omit excommunication for money, absolution for the same, and that by absolving one for another, which how contrary it is to the Scriptures, the complaints of many learned men by propositions in open schools proposed, by writings in printed books set out, and by preaching in open 〈◊〉, have been sufficiently witnessed. To conclude, this ilthie Court hath full power, together with the authority of this petty Pope, Metropolitan and primate of all England, to dispense in all causes wherein the Pope was wont to dispense, under which are contained more cases and causes, than we are able to reckon. As for my lords grace of York, we deal not with him. We refer him to that learned Epistle which Beza written unto him about these matters. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 228. Sect. 1. 2. & pag. 229. I think this Court to be necessary for the state of this Church and Realm: and if there be abuses in it, either in the law itself, or in the people, I wish it were reform. But the whole order of the Court is not therefore to be condemned, no more than it is of other Courts, which cannot be miss, and yet have abuses in them. I confess myself to have little experience in such matters, and therefore I will speak the less thereof. As I do mislike that there should be any time forbidden to marry in (for that can have no good meaning) or any dispensations for boys to keep benefices, or excommunications and absolutions for money, for one man to be absolved for another, and if there be any other such like abuse: so do I utterly condemn your unseemly and unchristian terms, as filthy quavemire, poisoned plash of all abominations, filthy Court, especially considering whereof they be spoken, to whom, and by whom: they argue a scolding nature, & a stomach boiling with contempt of laws The Church aundered by the Admonitors. & superiors. Neither can I suffer you to slander not that Court, but this Church, with manifest untruths, as you do when you say that banners, bells, and making of crosses, be allowed to be used in the gangweeke, and that the Archbishop's court hath full power to dispense in all causes, wherein the Pope was wont to dispense: which both be most untrue. I think in dispensations this Court goeth no further, than the laws of the Realm do permit. Agreeable to this spirit is your contemtuous speech, used to both the Archbishops, men to be reverenced not only in the respect of their years and authority, but of their singular wisdom, gravity, learning, and sound religion also. Howbeit you reverence them, as you do all other that be in authority, except some, whom you do but seek to use, to bring your intentes to pass, I will say no more. I think you have abused master Beza with your false reports, Beza and others used by false information . which hath caused him to writ otherwise than he would do, if he knew the whole state of the controversy: So you have also abused other notable learned men, and caused them to write, according to yourfansie, which since that time (being truly informed) have by their letters (which are to be seen) both condemned your contentiousness, and their own to much credulity. But our faith and Church, depends neither upon M. Beza, nor any other man, neither do they look for any such prerogative. But still you are without the book. T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 1 In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbishop's Court necessary, but bringeth no reason, and further confesseth himself ignorant of the estate of it, and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come, unless it be from thence, that he liketh of all things be they never so evil which the Admonition misliketh. The rest which M. Doctor hath of this matter, is nothing else but great and high words. And as for the Canon law, it is known what a stroke it beareth with us, and that a few cases excepted, it remaineth in his former effect. Io. Whitgifte. I have showed better reasons for it, than you have done against it as yet. For it 〈◊〉 made 〈◊〉 e overthrown but by very strong reasons. is a reason for me sufficient, that the Court is established by the authority of the Prince, and the whole Realm, and fit it is, that very strong reasons should be used, before this reason be rejected. For in matters of government, place must be given to the governors, law makers, and to the state: except there can be showed invincible reasons to the contrary, whereof you have not in this place uttered one. Of Deacons and Widows. Tract. 19 Of the office of Deacons. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. It was before showed that of the governors of the Church, there were some whose charge pertained unto the whole Church, of the which we have spoken: some other whose charges extend but to a part of the Church, that is unto the poor, and these are the Deacons. And as in the former part I showed there were two kinds, so in this latter part the same is to be noted, that of those whose charge was over the poor, some had charge over all the poor of the Church (as those which are called Deacons) some had charge over the poor strangers, and those poor which were sick only, and those S. Paul calleth in one place Diaconisses and in an other place widows. 16. Rom. For the Deacons did distribute unto the necessities as well of the poor strangers, & the sick poor, 1. Tim. 5. as unto the other poor of the Church. And the widows did employ their labours to she washing of the feet of the strangers, & attending upon the poor which were sick, & had no friends to keep them. Io. Whitgifte. There is no great matter in all this, saving only that I would gladly learn where the office of widows & Diaconesses is restrained to poor strangers only, and such as be sick: féeing that the other poor, that be neither strangers nor sick, may need their help in sundry things as well as they: and seeing also that neither in the. 16. to the Rom. nor in the. 1. Tim. 5. (which you quoted in the margin) there is any such restraint made, or to be gathered, but the contrary almost in express words. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Admonition. Touching Deacons though their names be remaining, yet is the office foully perverted, and turned upside down, for their duty in the primitive Church, was to (s) Rom. 12. 8. gather the alms diligently and to distribute it faithfully: also for the sick and impotent people to provide painfully, having ever a diligent care, that the charity of godly men were not wasted upon loiterers (t) 2. Thes. 3. 10 and idle vagabonds. Now it is the first step to the ministery, nay rather a mere order of Priesthood. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 118. Sect. 2. In the whole. 12. Chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, there is Moore pertaineth to the office of Deacons, than provision for the poor. not one word to prove the office of a Deacon to consist in gathering alms, and distributing the same, neither yet doth he speak there of the office of a Deacon, no more doth he in the third Chapter of the second Epistle to the Thessalo. Lord God what mean you thus to play with the Scriptures? T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. First I will speak of the Deacons, and whereas M. Doctor crieth out of daliying with the scriptures for alleging the. 8. verse of the twelve unto the Romans, to prove Deacons, affirming that there is no word of them? Truly I can found no words to set forth this so gross ignorance. And had it not been enough, for master Doctor to have uttered this ignorance, but he must also with an outcry proclaim it, and as it were spread the banner of it? What do these words note (he that distributeth in simplicity) but the office of the Deaconship: for in that place S. Paul reekeneth vy all the ordinary and perpetual offices of the Church, as the office of the Doctor, of the Pastor, of the Deacon, of the elder, and leaveth not out so much as the widow, which he noteth in these words (showing mercy.) If the Authors of the Admonition do dally with the scriptures in this place, surely Master Caluine, Master Beza, Master Bucer, Peter Martyr. etc. do dally with them. And shall all these be esteemed to play with the Scriptures. And Master Doctor only to handle them seriously? Io. Whitgifte. I think rather this clause: he that distributeth, let him do it with simplicity, is Rom. 12. 8. spoken to such as be able to help the poor, that they should do it willingly and simply for Christ's sake, not for vain glory, or any other like respect. For the whole scope of that Chapter is to move such as believe in Christ to good life, and conversation, neither doth the Apostle speak of the Ministers of the Church only, but of all Christians of what vocation or calling so ever they be. And therefore this sentence being general and spoken to all of ability, it may also include Deacons, but I see not how it can be particularly restrained to them. Origen upon this place says: The Origen. in. 12. Rom. Apostle saith that he which giveth, and bestoweth any thing upon the poor, must do it in simplicity of heart, that is, that he seem not to benefit the poor, and in heart seek the praise of men. Wherefore it is not simplicity, if one thing seem to be done outwardly, and in heart another be sought for. Chrysostom likewise expounding these words Chrysost. in 12. Rom. saith: It sufficeth not to give, but it must also be done bountifully. etc. So doth the Greek Scholiast, Theodorete, Theophilact, Ambrose, Jerome: all these do understand this place, not of the Deacons, who distribute other men's alms, but of such as give alms themselves, and relieve the poor with their own substance. Master Bullinger also doth admit, and well allow this interpretation. Wherefore you see, that I have good ground of my saying, when I said that he did not speak there of the office of a Deacon. You say that Paul reckoneth up here all ordinary and perpetual offices of the Church, but you speak it only, you prove it not: he speaketh here of prophesying, and you deny the office of a Prophet to be perpetual. You say he speaketh here of Widows, and I deny their office to be perpetual. Moreover it is certain that he speaketh in this place of gifts profitable to the Church, and some of them common, as well to Civil as to Ecclesiastical people, as all learned Fathers in their Commentaries upon this place do confess, and so doth Master Bullinger in like manner, and so I think must all other do that well consider the drift of S. Paul in that Chapter, and the profitable lessons, the Apostle there giveth to all and every sort of men. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And as Master Doctor's ignorance appeareth in this place, so his mind not 〈◊〉 of the truth, but seeking to cavil, doth as manifestly show itself. For all men see that the Admonition allegeth not the place to the Thessalonians to prove the office of Deacons, but to show that idle vagabonds might not have any of that relief, which belongeth unto those which be poor in deed, which thing appeareth, both by the placing of the quotation over against that allegation, and by the letter which directeth thereunto. Io. Whitgifte. belike that place was only quoted for the phrase, else I see not to what end i serveth, except it be to prove the office of a Deacon. For to what purpose should they note it to prove that idle vagabonds should have none of that relief, seeing that is not denied nor yet in question. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And whereas Master Doctor saith that the office of the Deacons is not only to provide for the poor, but also to preach and minister the Sacraments, I have showed before that it both not apperteync unto them, to do either the one or the other. For the proof whereof, this place of the Romans, quoted by the Admonition, is very fit and most proper. For S. Paul speaketh there against those which not contenting themselves with their own vocations, did break into that which appertained unto others, as it the hand should take upon it the office of the eye, or of some other member of the body, and therefore Saint Paul doth (as it were) bound and point the lymittes of every office in the Church, and so placeth the Deacons office only in the provision for the poor. This one thing I will add to that matter, that if the Apostles which had such excellent and passing gifts, did find themselves (preaching of the word, and attending to prayer) not able to provide for the poor, but thought it necessary to discharge themselves of that office, to the end they might do the other effectually, and fruitfully, he that shall do both now, must either do none well and profitably, or else he must have greater gifts than the Apostles had. Io. Whitgifte. I have proved before manifestly that it pertained to the office of a Deacon to Tract. 14. preach, and to minister the Sacrament of Baptism, and to help in other business pertaining to the Church: I have alleged both manifest examples out of the scripture to justify the same, and the practice of the primitive Church together with the testimonies both of the ancient and late writers: and undoubtedly you are driven to a great straight when you are enforced to use this place of the. 12. to the Romans to prove the contrary, for though it were meant of Deacons, yet doth it not prove in any respect your purpose: neither can you frame any argument of it to that end. Neither Steven nor Philip, when they being Deacons preached, and the one ministered the Sacrament of Baptism also, did break into that which appertained not unto them, being incident to their office when they be thereunto called. The Apostles were occupied in planting Churches, in going from place to place, to spread abroad the word of God, and therefore they could not: so conveniently provide for the posre: but the Deacons having no such occasion of travelling and removing from place to place, might very well both preach the Gospel and provide for the poor. Neither can I conceive any reason to the contrary: for I think they spent no great time in turning over many volumes, to provide for their Sermons, because God gave to them extraordinary gifts of knowledge, utterance, and such like, necessary for their function. And if you speak of Deacons now, I say unto you, that under a Christian Prince in the time of peace, that part of their Some part of the Deacons office not so needful in the time of christian magistrates office to provide for the poor is not necessary, seeing that by other lawful and politic means, they may much better be provided for. Wherefore glory as much as you will in your own wit and reason, yet in these heavenly & divine things, your reasons shall prove but vain and untoward. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. Admonition. Again in the old Church every (w) Phil. 1. 1. john. 13. 27 Acts. 6. 5. 1. Tim. 3. 8. congregation had their Deacons. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 120. O how aptly you have alleged the scriptures to prove that every congregation had their Deacons? In the first to the Philip. these be Whether deacons were in every congregation. the words: Paul and Timotheus, etc. to all the Saints which are at Philippi, with the Bishops and Deacons. Paul & Timotheus salute the Bishops and Deacons which are at Philippi: Therefore in those days every congregation had their Deacons: a strange kind of reasoning: you might well have thus concluded, Ergo at Philippi there was Deacons: But surely this argument is to much out of Unapt arguments. square, there was Deacons at Philippi, therefore every congregation had their Deacons. In the. 13. of S. john. verse. 27. these be the words. And after the sop, Satan entered into him, than said jesus unto him, that thou dost, do quickly. After Supper Satan entered into judas, and jesus said unto him, that thou dost, do quickly: Therefore every Congregation had their Deacons. Not marvel though your margin be pestered with Scriptures, when you take liberty to make ex quolibet quidlibet. Peradventure you mean that judas was a Deacon (as he was not, but an Apostle) because he carried the bag, and that some of the Apostles thought, that Christ had bid him give some what to the poor: belike whosoever giveth a penny to the poor at his master's commandment, is with you a Deacon. In the sixt of the Acts we learn that there were choose seven Deacons, but there is not one word to prove, that every congregation had their Deacons. In the third of the first to Timothy S. Paul showeth what qualities and conditions a Deacon aught to have, but not one word of Deacons being in every Congregation. This is great audacity, thus manifestly to wring the Scriptures, without all colour or show of reason. T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. ult. The second point is touching that there were Deacons in every Church, which is well proved of the Admonition, both by the place of the Philippians, and of the Acts, for although it be not there said, that the deacons were in every church, yet forsomuch as the same use of them was in all Churches which was in jerusalem and at Philippes, and for that the Apostles (as hath been before touched) labouring after the uniformitte of the Church, ordained the same officers in all Churches, the proof of one is the proof of all, and the showing that there were Deacons in one Church, is the showing in all. The place which they allege out of the first to Timothe, is of all other most proper for S. Paul there describing not how the Church of Ephesus, but simply and generally how the Church must be governed, reckoneth there the order of Deacons, whereunto may be added the continual practice of the Church long after the Apostles times, which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these words: the Bishop, Elders, and Deacons, of such a Church, and unto the Bishops, Elders, and Deacons of such a Church. And by that it is so oftentimes said in the counsels where the Churches assembled, that there were so many Bishops, so many Elders, so many deacons. Io. Whitgifte. And I say again, that they be most unapt reasons: for the Deacons office was not so troublesome, but that the Deacons of one City, might serve all the Churches and congregations belonging unto the same: neither have you read either in scripture, or any ancient writer (except I be greatly deceived) that Deacons were placed any where, but in Cities: and yet it is not to be thought, but that there were Churches also, in meaner Towns. And surely no man without blushing can defend this argument: there were Deacons at jerusalem, and at Philippos, Ergo there were in every congregation Deacons. It is like unto this: there be Preachers in Cambridge and London: therefore in every parish in England, there be preachers. This is also untrue, that the Apostles ordained the same officers in all Churches. For in chief and principal Cities they ordained Bishops to guide and governs the rest of the ministers, which were in towns belonging to those cities, as it is manifest by the examples of james, Timothy, and Titus, but they did not ordain any such Bishops in every congregation: for further proof of this, I refer the reader to that Tract. 8. which I have spoken of Archbishops and Bishops. The first to Timothy, the third, is as violently wrested to serve their purpose. For S. Paul doth not speak one word there of Deacons, being in every congregation, only he telleth what manner of man they aught to be. And you are not able to show (as I have said) by the practice of the Church, that there were Deacons in every congregation. These superscriptions and subscriptions that you talk of, were then used, when letters were sent to the Bishop, Ministers, and Deacons of chief Cities, where all these commonly remained: and therefore cannot prove that every congregation had their Deacons. The Deacons named in Counsels were resident in Cities, not in every congregation. But among all these slender defences of yours, you leave out the. 13. of S. john: The Admonitors left to their own defence. vers. 27. belike the Authors of the Admonition must answer that themselves, as they must do many other places, which you by silence pass over unto them. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. Admonition. Now they are tied to Cathedral Churches only, and what do they there? gather the alms and distribute it to the poor? nay, that is the lest piece, or rather no part of their function. What then? to sing a Gospel when the Bishop ministereth the Communion. If this be not a perverting of this office and charge, let every one judge. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 121. Sect. 2. I am sure you are not offended that there be Deacons in Cathedral Churches: for if they aught to be in every Congregation, they aught to be there also: and yet I know no such order now in Cathedral Churches, that they be more bound to Deacons in the respect of reading the Gospel, than other Churches be: But admit they were, it is no perverting of the office of a Deacon, being incident to his office, as well to read the Scriptures in the congregation, and diverse state of the church. Some part of the Deacons office not now so necessary. to exhort, as to give alms, and distribute to the poor: for the state of the Church is not now, as it was in the Apostles time, neither is that part of the office of a Deacon, so necessary now, as it was then, being laws & orders otherwise to provide for the poor, than there either was then, or could have been. T. C. pag. 153. Sect. 1 The third point in this Deaconshyp is, whether it be a necessary office in the church or for a time only, which controversy should not have been, if M. Doctors english tongue had been agreeable with his latin. For in a certain latin pamphlet of his, whereof I spoke before, he maketh the Deaconship a necessary office and such as aught not to be taken out of the church: here he This disco is in your care, not in ong. singeth an other song, there, because he thought the necessity of the Deacon made for him, he would needs have Deacons: here, because it maketh against him, he saith there is no need of them, whereby appeareth how small cause there is that M. Doctor should upbraid the authors of the Admonition with mutability and discord with themselves. But that this office is durable & perpetual, it may appear by that which I have alleged before out of the fixed of Timothy, for the necessity of Elders, for the arguments serve to prove the necessity of those orders which are there set forth, whereof the Deacon is one. Io. Whitgifte. The only thing that is spoken in that latin book, touching the continuance of Deacons in the Church, is this, that they are not mentioned in the fourth to the Ephesians, and yet they may not be taken out of the Church. In my Answer to the Admonition, I say that this part of the office of a Deacon which consists in providing for the poor, is not so necessary now as it was in the Apostles tyme. My english tongue agreeth very well with my latin tongue, for any signification of dissension that is here uttered. I am fully persuaded that the office of a Deacon is to be retained in the church, for it is a degree to the ministery, which consists in Preaching, Baptizing, and helping the ministers in other functions of the church, as I have showed. But yet I say that this part of the office, which consists in providing for the poor, is not so necessary under a Christian prince, when better provision is made, as it is under a Tyrant and in time of persecution. Therefore I sing one and the self same song, but you would gladly espy out the contrary if it were possible. To your allegation out of the sixte of Timothy, I have answered fully: it is but a conceit of yours which yourself will mislike when you be better advised. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. Admonition. And yet lest the reformers of our time should seem utterly to take out of God's church this necessary function, they appoint some thing to it concerning the poor, and that is, to search for the sick, needy, and impotent people of the parish, and to intimate their estates, names, and places where they devil to the Curate, that by his exhortation they may be relieved by the Parish, or other convenient alms. And this you see is the nyghest part of his office, and yet you must understand it to be in such places where there is a Curate and Deacon: every parish cannot be at that cost to have both, nay, not parish so far as can be gathered, at this present hath. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 122. Sect. 1 And what fault can you find herewith, is not this greatly to be commended? If every parish can not be at the cost to have both Curate and Deacon, why do you require them both in every parish? why do you not think well of such laws as appoint Collectors for the poor, which may as well provide for them and better to, than could the Deacon, who must be sustained himself with that which the poor should have. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 1 And whereas M. Doctor saith, that every church is not able to find a Curate (as he termeth him) and a Deacon, I have before showed, entreating of the Seniors, that the churches in the Apostles times might best have said this, being poor and persecuted, although I see not why the church may not have a Deacon or Deacons if more be needful, with as small charges as they may have a collector or collectors. Io. Whitgifte. It is the Admonition that sayeth, Every parish cannot be at that cast to have both. Whereupon I do but ask this question, why they require them both in every parish, if every parish cannot be at the cost to have them both? Belike you make small account of the Admonition, in that you read it not, or else you have forgotten that this question is demanded upon their confession. But in deed I am of that opinion too, and have before answered your objection of the Churches in the Apostles times, as for our Collectors, they be such as put not the Church to one halfepenye charge, so could not your Deacons do. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. Admonition. For they (u) Pontifi. tit. The ordering of deacons. may baptize in the presence of a Bishop or priest, or in their absence (if necessity so require) minister the other Sacrament, likewise read the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation, instruct the youth in the Catechism, and also preach, if he be commanded by the Bishop. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I know not what you mean by your Ponti. tit. in the margin of your book, but if you mean the book entitled, the form and manner of making and consecrating Bishops, etc. now allowed in this Church of England, then do you untruly report it, for there is no mention of baptizing in the presence of a Bishop or Priest, neither yet of ministering the other Sacrament in their absence if necessity require: only the book sayeth, that a Deacon may baptize or preach, if he be thereunto admitted by the Bishop, and that he may so do by the word of God I have proved before. As for reading the holy Scriptures, and Homilies in the Congregation, also for instructing the youth in the Catechism, who doubteth but that a Deacon may do them? Admonition. The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministery, nor the Collectors for the poor may not usurp the Deacons office: but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must look to his office, and every man must keep himself within the bonds and limits of his own vocation. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither do we confound them, and yet Paul in the place by you quoted in the margin, speaketh not one word of confounding, or not confounding these offices: So the poor be provided for, it forceth not, whether provision be made by Deacons or by Collectors: by the one it may be well done, by the other it cannot be done in all places, as the state is now. But show any Scripture to prove that the poor must only be provided for by Deacons, else not. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered to this. ¶ Of the offices of Widows and their continuance. Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remaineth to speak of the Widows, which were godly poor women in the church above the age of three score years, for the avoiding of all suspicion of evil, which might rise the slanderous tongues, it they had been younger. These as they were nourished at the charges of the church being poor, so did they serve the church, in attending upon poor strangers, and the poor which were sick in the church whereof they were widows. (*) This will not agreed with the doctrine you taught before. Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great use of these widows with us, as there was in those places where the churches were first founded, and in that time wherein this order of widows was instituted, part of the which necessity grew both by the multitude of strangers through the persecution, and by the great hear of those east countries, whereupon the washing and suppling of their feet was required, yet to: so much as there are poor which are sick in every church, I do not see how a better and more convenient order can be devised, for the attendance of them in their sickness and other infirmities, than this which saint Paul apoynteth, that there should be (if there can be any got) godly poor widows of the age which S. Paul apointeth which should attend upon such. For it there be any such poor widows of that age destitute of all friends, it is manifest that she must needs iyve of the charge of the church, and seeing she must needs do so, it is better she should do some duty for it unto the church again, than the church should be at a new charge, to find others to attend upon those which are sick and destitute of keepers, seeing that there can be none so fit for that purpose as those women which saint Paul doth there describe, so that I conclude, that (*) This condition cannot agreed with so precise commandment as you have made it before. (if such may be got) we aught also to keep that order of widows in the church still. I know that there be learned men which think otherwise, but I stand upon the authority of God's word, and not upon the opinions of men be they never so well learned, and if the matter also should be tried by the judgement of men, I am able to show the judgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth, which thinketh that the institution of widows is perpetual, and aught to be where it may be had, and where such widows are found. Indeed they are more rare now than in the Apostles times. For then by reason of the persecution, those which had the gift of continency, did abstain from marriage after the death of their husbands, for that the sole life was an easier estate and less dangerous and chargeable when they were driven to fly, than the estate of those which were married. Io. Whitgifte. Here you are taken in your own trap, and fain you would wring your The Reply tripped and caught in his own net. Pag. 141. self out if you could tell which way: for if all things contained in S. Paul his first Epistle to Timothy be perpetual, and must be kept under the great charge that be gave unto Timothy in the sixt chapter, as you have before affirmed, then of necessity the church must needs still retain widows. You know not in the world how to avoid this absurdity, and therefore some times you say, that now there is not so great use of them with us as there was in those places where the churches were first founded. etc. and by and by you begin to call that back and say, that you do not see how a better and more convenient order can be devised for the attendance of them in their sickness and other infirmities. etc. and in the end you conclude that (if such may be got) we aught also to keep that order of widows in the church still. Surely if it be an order appointed of God to be perperpetuall, and contained under that denunciation to Timothy in the sixt chapter, these (ifs) and (ands) can take no place, for there are widows good store in this realm of England, so that, that excuse will not serve. But it is a world to see, what you dare avouch be it never so untrue, contrary both to the practice of all reform churches that I can hear of, and judgements of all learned men that I have read of this matter. But if the institution of widows be so necessay, why should they not be in every congregation as well as Deacons: for the Apostle speaketh as directly of them in his epistle to Timothy, as he doth of Deacons. Again if this be a sufficient excuse why the church hath no widows, to say that they cannot be got, or there is none meet, why will not the excuse serve the church for lack of your Seniors also. etc. ¶ Of the Authority of the civil Magistrate in Ecclesiastical mattets. Tract. 20. The. 1. Division. Admonition. And to these three jointly, that is, the Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 126. Sect. ult. This is only by you set down without proof, therefore I will hear your reasons before I make you answer. In the mean time I pray you what authority in these matters do you give to the civil Where is the princes autho ritie? magistrate, me think I hear you whisper that the Prince hath no authority in ecclesiastical matters: I know it is a received opinion among some of you, and therein you shake hands also with the Papists and Anabaptistes. T. C. Pag. 153. Lin. ult. etc. Unto all the rest until the end of the first part of the Admonition. I have answered already, yet there is a point or two which I must touch, whereof the first is in the. 126. pag. where he would bear men in hand that the authors of the Admonition & some other of their mind, would shut out the civil magistrate and the prince from all authority in Ecclesiastical matters. Which surmise although I see it is not so much, because either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing, as because he means hereby to say a bait to entrap withal, thinking that where (a) Note these speeches, he maketh no conscience to give he careth not what authority to princes, we will be loath to give more than the word of God will permit, whereby he hopeth to draw us into displeasure with the prince: yet for because he shall understand, we nourish no opinions secretly, which we are ashamed to declare openly, & for that we doubt not of the equity of the prince in this part, which knoweth that although her authority be the greatest in the earth, yet it is not infinite, but is limited by the word of God, & of whom we are persuaded, that as her majesty knoweth, so she will not unwillingly hear the truth in this behalf, these things I say being considered, I answer in the name of the authors of the Admonition and those some other which you speak of, that the prince and civil magistrate (b) What? no more but to see them executed? how differeth this from Papistry? hath to see, that the laws of God touching his worship, and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed and duly observed, and to see that every ecclesiastical person do that office whereunto he is appointed, & to punish those which fail in their office accordingly. (c) The prince spoiled of authority to make Ecclesiastical orders. As for the making of the orders and ceremonies of the church, they do (where there is a constituted and ordered church) pertain unto the ministers of the church, and to the ecclesiastical governors, & that as they meddle not with the making of civil laws, & laws for the common wealth: so the civil magistrate hath not to ordain ceremonies pertaining to the church: But if those to whom that doth appertain make any orders not meet, the magistrate may and aught to hinder them, & drive them to better, for so much as the civil magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against the glory of God in his dominion. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the Admonition pag. 126. be these: and for these three jointly, that is, the The Admonitors and T. C. join with the Papists against the Queen's supremacy in matters ecclesiastical. Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regiment of the church to be committed. Wherefore they spoil the civil magistrate of all government in Ecclesiastical matters: for if the whole government of the church is to be committed to Ministers, Seniors, & Deacons, what authority remains to the civil magistrate in the government of it? agreeable to this disobedient spirit & erroneous & Papistical doctrine, is that in the second Admonition Fol. 8. &. 9 where the authors of that book take from the civil magistrate all supremacy in Ecclesiastical matters, and by evident circumstances, call his authority used in those things usurped. pag. 57 they say, only mere civil laws are to be made. And here in this place T. C. in express words taketh from the civil magistrate, all authority of making and appointing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orders and ceremonies of the church, and giveth the same only to ministers and eccle asticall governors, he maketh it the prince's duty to see those awes executed which these eccle asticall governors shall appoint and prescribe: and in his Preface he says that evil persons may not handle ecclesiastical matters and Pag. 35. &. 145. the the civil magistrate may not be the head of the church in that common wealth whereof he is the head. Where by (as I suppose he means 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 supreme governor) and that the church may be established without him. Pag. 54. he denieth that the magistrate aught to prescribe what kind of apparel ministers should 〈◊〉. In divers places, he maketh such a distinction betwixt the church of Christ, & a Christian common wealth that hath a Christian magistrate, as he would do betwixt the church & a Heathenish common wealth, that hath a persecuting and an unbelieving magistrate, and separateth the common wealth of England, as far from the church of England as he can do the common wealth of Turcia, from the church of Christ in Turcia: all this I have noted to this end, that the good subject and those that be careful for the preservation of the state of this Realm, and the lawful authority of her Majesty, may the better consider and beware of this doctrine, the which unless I prove to be the self same with the Papists in substance, let me sustain that punishment that is due unto them whom I burden & charge with forgetfulness of duty in this point. Saunders in that traitorous book of his, writeth thus. That hath deceived many, Saunders & the Rep ere agreed. because they see kings to be Christians, and to rule over Christians, for they know not, or at the lest they will not know, what difference there is, whether thou rule over a Christian in that he is a Christian, or in that he is a man. For a king ruleth over Christian men, but not Saunders. because they be Christians, but because they be men: and because byshoppss be men, in that respect he ruleth also over them. etc. And. T. C. in his Reply. pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast. manner, saying: That the godly Magistrate is the head of the common wealth, but not of the church, meaning that particular church contained in the common wealth whereof he is governor: and in the same page he says: that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular church. And page 145. he sayeth, That the Prince may well be Pag. 〈◊〉. Sed 1. Monarch immediately between God and the common wealth, and not between God & the church, in that common wealth or any singular member in the church, and in this place he would have the civil Magistrate no more to intermeddle with making Ecclesiastical laws and orders, than the ecclesiastical minister should deal with civil: divers such nips and pinches he hath at the civil Magistrate: speaking no other wise of him than of a Turk or a jew, and giving him no more authority in the church of Christ and over Christians, than if he were the great Turk, or wicked Nero. But I answer them both with the words of M. Musculus in his common places Titu. de Magistratu. Let Ethnics and infidels which live not in the unity of truth, but in the confusion of error, have their divers laws Musculus. and magistrates, some profane and some holy, whose whole life is profane, whose religion is but ecclesiastical superstition and in the temple only. Christian people are altogether hely, and dedicated to the name of Christ, not in temples only and ecclesiastical rites, but in their whole life, in every place at all times, in all things, in all deeds and studies, that according to the admonition of the Apostle. 1. Cor. 10. whether he eat or drink, or whatsoever he doth all may be done to the glory of God, and Col. 3. whatsoever he doth in word or in deed, he do it in the name of the Lord. etc. Wherefore that distinction of Ecclesiastical & profane laws, hath no place in it, because there is nothing in it that is profane, seeing it is a people holy to the Lord God: and the Magistrate is holy and not profane, his authority is holy, his laws are holy, his sword is holy, a revenger of the wicked and ungodly, whereby he serveth the Lord being the chief lawmaker, and judge: our members are the members of Christ, and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost: we are willed to glorify God not in our spirit only, but in our body also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be far 〈◊〉 authority Pap 'tis give to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉. from the church of Christ, that it should be partly holy, and partly profane, holy before, and profane behind, like unto an Idol which showeth beautiful before, and behind is full of filth, and Spiders webs. Again the Papists give to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiastical matters, Potestatem facti and not juris, that is, to see those laws executed and put in practice, that the Pope and his Clergy shall make, and to be as it were their executioner, but not to make any laws or orders in Ecclesiastical matters: for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I do not deny but that the knowledge of a Saunders. fact that belongeth to the ecclesiastical law, may be committed to kings and Magistrates, and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined, the king may use his authority to this end, that there may be some quiet place prepared, where the bishops shall consult, and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certain day, and that in the mean time while the matter is in determining, common peace may be preserved even among the priests themselves: to conclude, after the cause be determined and judged by the priests, the king may punish him with the sword (which he carrieth not in vain) or by some other corporal punishment which shall refuse to obey the sentence of the priests. Therefore we do not deny but that kings have something to do, both before, and at, and after the judgements of the bishops: but in the office of judging, they have no more to do, than other private people, for they may well give council, and declare what they think, but they may not determine or define what Gods laws or the ecclesiastical law doth require. And doth not T. C. in this place affirm the Potestas facti, not juris, ascribed to the magistrates. same? only herein he seemeth something to differ, that if the ecclesiastical governors shall make any orders unmeet, the magistrate may drive them to better. But what if they say they be meet, & will stand to it, as you do now in this fond platform? will they not cry out upon the magistrate, & say that he is a persecutor, a maintainer of an unlawful authority, & of that which is against the glory of God, if he withstand them? as the authors of the second Admonition do in plain terms, saying, For though the orders be, and aught to be drawn out of the book of God, yet it is her Majesty that by her princely 2. Admonit. pag. 60. authority should see every of these things put in practice, and punish those that neglect them, making laws therefore: for the church may keep those orders, but never in peace, except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and governors imcke in to see them in their countries and used, for otherwise the church may and must keep God's orders, but always in troubles and persecution which is like to light upon us, except a reformation of religion, or a direct proviso for us be made, for surely only this is God his order, and aught to be used in his church, so that in conscience we are forced to speak for it and to use it, and in conscience and in reverence of God we are forced to speak as we do of that reformation, which we now use, not so much for aught else, as to set out the deformities thereof, that we might think upon the amending of them. M. Musculus in the book and title before recited, setteth out this Popish opinion touching Musculus. the authority of the civil Magistrate in ecclesiastical matters briefly, but plainly, in these words. Those whom they call Ecclesiastical persons, and we call them Papists, will not commit to the magistrate any further authority in religion, than to be the keeper and revenger of it, and of their Ecclesiastical laws, that the ecclesiastical policy may remain immovable, wherefore they deny him to have authority in that he is a magistrate to make or to publish any Ecclesiastical laws, because such things pertain to those that do represent the church, whose decrees and constitutions must be maintained and defended by the authority of the magistrate. This I thought good to neat before I come to answering of his arguments, that all men may understand that I no otherwise charged them in this point, than they have well deserved, neither have I as yet detected all that they perversely think, of the authority of the civil magistrate: one thing I pray you mark, that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by the Rep r. practised that I have ascribed to the Anabaptistes, in my (*) Pag. 2. sect. 2. Answer to the Admonition, for there I show that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospel, for attributing (as they say) to much to the civil magistrate: The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place. But I will now come to his arguments. The. 2. Division. T. C. Page 154, Sect 1 This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not herded of, let him look in the second book of the Chronicles in the. 19 chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses, he shall see that there were a You allege the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord, which were priests & Levites, and there were other also appointed for the king's affairs, and for matters of the common wealth, amongst which were the Levites, which being more in number than could be applied to the use of the church, were set over civil causes, being therefore most fit, for that they were best learned in the laws of God, which were the polylike laws of that country. There he may learn if it please him, that the making of orders and giving of judgements in civil and Ecclesiastical, in common wealth and church matters, pertained unto divers people, which distinction the writer to the Hebrews doth note, when he sayeth, (*) that the Priest was ordained in things pertaining to God. Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte. Yes, I both know this distinction, and have heard of it, for I have red it The 〈◊〉 useth the same distinction & reasons with the Papists. in the books of the Papists as I have showed before: I have heard also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19 alleged to confirm it: For Saunders in his book before named, doth use it to the same end and purpose that you do: that is, to prove the Civil Magistrate to have no authority in making Ecclesiastical laws and orders, his words be these. Likewise josaphat king of juda distinguishing both the Saunders. li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57 powers, said to the Levites and Priests: Amarias' the Priest, and your Bishop shall govern in those things which pertain to God: But Zabadias' etc. behold something pertained to the Bishop, other somethinges to the office of a King. The same place also doth Harding use, to the self same end against my Lord of Sarisburie, fol. 118. of the defence of the Apology of the Church of England, from whom I believe you have borrowed it. Do I not say truly that you jump with the Papists? do you not both conspire against the Civil Magistrate? and are you not content to use their very words and reasons? great ado there is against me, because I use a place of Cyprian for the authority of an Archbishop over his province, which the Papists abuse for the authority of the Pope over all Christendom: and here you use the reason not only of Papists, but of Traitors to the same end with them: that is, against that lawful jurisdiction, which we have given to our Prince, and which hath hitherto been maintained, both by preaching and by burning. But to let this rest in the consideration of the Reader, I will in few The place of the Replier against himself. words declare that this place maketh flat against you: for who placed those Levites and Priests in jerusalem for the judgement and cause of the Lord? or who prescribed unto them what they should do? or who gave to them that authority? did not jehosaphat? the text is plain. jehosaphat had chief authority and government both in things pertaining to God, and in things pertaining to the common wealth, but for better execution of them, the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Priest, the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of juda: even as the queens Majesty being supreme governor in all causes, both Ecclesiastical and Temporal, committeth the hearing and judging of Ecclesiastical matters to the archbishops and Bishops, and of Temporal matters to the Lord Chancellor and other judges, neither can you any more conclude that jehosaphat had no authority in Ecclesiastical causes because he made Amarias' the Priest judge in the same, than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporal affairs, because he appointed also Zabadiah to hear & determine them. For if this reason be good, the Queen of England hath nothing to do with Ecclesiastical matters, because she hath made the Archbishops and Bishops judges in them, than is this as good, her Majesty hath no authority in Civil matters, because she hath committed the same to the Lord Chancellor and other judges. Thus you see how both the Papists and you are deceived in one and she self same reason. I will but note by the way that the Levites being Ecclesiastical people, had Levites being Ecclesiastical people had to d in civil matters. to do in Civil matters, as the words of the text verse. 11. most manifestly, declare, as for your shift of the number of them, being more than could be applied to the use of the Church, it is but your own, and therefore to simple to answer so plain and direct a place of the Scripture. That in the fift to the Hebrews is far from the purpose, for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things pertaining to God be: Even to offer both gifts and sacrifices for him: I think you do not so maliciously report of us as the Papists do: that we give to the Prince power to minisier the Sacraments, and to preach the word: if you do not, this place can by no means serve your turn. The. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor have learned by that which the noble Emperor Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb. Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 . tom. con. to the Fathers of the Nicene Council and to the Ecclesiastical people there gathered: which he doth also permit the Bishops, Elders, and Deacons of Churches to do, (*) A great oversight. either by correcting or adding, or making new if need be. And by the continual practice of the Church in the time of Christian Emperors, which always permitted unto the ministers assembled in counsels▪ as well the determination of controversies which rose, as the making or the abolishing of needful or hurtful ceremonies, as the ease required. Also by the emperors epistle in the first action of the council of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth, that it was the manner of the Emperors, to confirm the ordinances which were made by the ministers, and to see them kept. Io. Whitgifte. I learn in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ecclesiastical matters. a general Bishop appointed of God, that he also called Synods and placed the moderator in them: I learn in that second Book, that he made laws and constitutions pertaining to holiness towards God, and to the appointing of meet things for the Churches of God: that there should be no Images worshipped: none erected and set up: no enchantments used or so thsayings. And I learn in that same Epistle Lib. 2. by you quoted, that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he should do, and what Epist. ad Eusel. he should will others to do, in building and repairing of Church▪ s, or enlarging of them: neither is there mention made of any other Laws or constitutions in that Epistle: 〈◊〉 gross oversight of T. C. and surely I believe that those words which Constantinus speaketh to Eusebius of building or repairing, or enlarging Churches builded of stone, you understand of making, restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiastical orders and Laws, which if you do (as your words plainly signify) then understand you not the place, abuse your Reader, and cast away an argument. For Constantinus words to Eusebius be thesc: How hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyranny, persecuting Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant. Epist. ad Eus. the Ministers of our Saviour, the buildings of the Churches are decayed, and weakened through negligence, or sold and made vile, for fear of imminent danger, I know and am fully persuaded: but now liberty being restored, and that Dragon through the providence of God, and our ministery banished from the government of the common wealth, I think God's power is made manifest to all, and that those which have fallen into certain sins, either for fear or through unbelief, and now know the truth Eusthius governor of me churches than one. will return again to the true and right way of life: therefore admonish all Churches which thou dost govern or any other Churches, under the government of other Bishops, Priests, or Deacons, that they be diligent about the building of their Churches, and that they either repair such as stand still, or enlarge them, or if necessity require, build them new, and thou thyself, or other for thee, may require of the governors and Magistrates in the provinces those things that be necessary. It is plain that Constantine in these words speaketh only of material Churches, and therefore you are greatly deceived. But if it were as you say, do you not see how it maketh against The place against 〈◊〉. yourself? for what doth more plainly appear in that you say, he permitteth this unto the Bishops etc. than that the authority was in him, and they were but his vicegerentes. The continual practice of Christian Churches (in the time of Christian Magistrates) Christian Princes have exercised so authority in ecclesiastical cases. Sozomenus. lib. 1. cap. 17. before the usurpation of the Bishop of Rome, hath been to give to Christian Princes supreme authority in making Ecclesiastical orders and laws, yea and that which is more, in deciding of matters of religion, even in the chief and principal points. And that book and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted declareth the same. For the Bishops that came to the Council of nice, committed the hearing & determining of their controversies to the Emperor, which argueth that it was then, a common and undoubted opinion received among them, that the Emperor had authority to judge in their causes: and although the Emperor of modesty refused so to do, saying, that it was not meet for them, so to use themselves, that they should be judged of other, yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Clergy from the jurisdiction of the Civil Magistrate, unless you will take hold with the Pope and say, We must judge all and be judged of none▪ This modesty in Constantinus (in refusing to hear the matters in controversis among the Bishops) excepted, there is nothing in that first book and, 17▪ chapter of Sozomene, that can by any means serve your turn. If you say that he would not determine any thing against Arius heresy, but A wise prince will take the advise of the learned in discussing of weighty matters. committed the same to the Synod and Council of Nice: I answer, that therein be nothing at all abridged his authority.▪ but showed his wisdom and godly care. For it is the part of a wise and godly Prince, to have such weighty matters of doctrine (being in controversy) decreed and determined by such, as for their authority, wisdom and learning, are most fit to entreat of such matters. But alas how doth this argument follow: Constantinus called the Council of Nice to determine certain matters of religion in controversy, therefore he had no authority to make Ecclesiastical orders and laws? What Council of Constantinople was that? if you mean the. 5. being celebrated justinian made many Ecclesiastical laws. Anno. 549. in the time of justinianus: it is a very late testimony for this cause, the Bishops of Rome: being then in great authority, and yet manifest it is, that no Emperor made more Ecclesiastical laws, both concerning matters of order, and also of doctrine, than did the Emperor justinianus, as may be seen in the Code under these Titles, De summa trinitate & fide Catholica: De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs: de Episcopis & Clericis: de Haereticis & Manichaeis & Samaritanis: ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur: de statuis & imaginibus, and a number such like. If you mean the sixth Council of Constantinople, as it like you do: then are you without my compass: for that Council was Anno. 681. and who will allege Constantinus▪ rogon▪ governed the council of Constantinople. on. 681. any authority of that corrupt time for any such matter in controversy? and yet it is certain that Constantinus the Emperor did govern that Council and that the Bishops on both sides did plead before him at his appointment, himself sitting as moderator: and this was in a matter of faith. But be it as you say (though I can find no such thing in the first Action of that Council) doth it follow that because Emperors confirmed ordinances that were made in Synods and Councils, therefore they have no authority to make Ecclesiastical laws? surely I understand not how you can make any such conclusion, for (as I said before) it is a point of great wisdom and singular care, to provide that weighty matters in controversy be determined with great deliberation and advise of such as be most skilful in them. But this can be no argument to prove that Civil Magistrates may make no orders in the Church, or Ecclesiastical Laws: for even those orders and laws which were made in such Counsels, were made by the authority of the Emperor, as doth very well appear in the same Counsels, for when the matters were concluded in the Council of Chalcedon, the Bishops burst out into these voices. It is a true and a right judgement: long life to the Senate: many Conc. Chalced▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. years to the Emperor. Whereby it appeareth that the chief authority in such Counsels was given to the Emperor, and that he was esteemed as the chief judge: which appeareth also at large in the second book of Euagrius. The. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practice of this he might have also most plainly seen in Ambrose, who would by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no means suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Prince's consistory or Another reason of the Papists against the authority of the civil magistrate. court, but would have them handled in the Church, by those that had the government of the Church, and therefore excuseth himself to the Emperor Ualentiman for that (being convented to answer of the church matters unto the civil court) he came not. Io. Whitgifte. This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons against the authority of the civil Magistrate in Ecclesiastical matters, and he used it against the Apology, but the answer made to the same in the defence of the Apology, by that reverend Father 6. part. 14. Chap. 5. Division. the Bishop of Sarisburie, is learned and true, the sum whereof is this. The Emperor Valentinian at that time when Ambrose written this Epistle unto him, was very young, he was not yet baptised, he knew not the principles of Christ's Why Ambrose refused to come at the emperors commandment. Religion, he was an Arian Heretic, he would have thrust out the Christians, and placed Heretics in their Churches, he thought it was lawful for him to do what him listed etc. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his judge, so that he did not mislike his authority in causes Ecclesiastical, but only his wilful ignorance and his tyranny: for that he knew his judgement was corrupted and not indifferent. And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle, you might have perceived that he allegeth for his chief defence, and excuse for not appearing, the decree of Theodosius the Father of Valentinian, so that in not coming or appearing at the Emperors summon, he did but challenge the privilege granted before of godly Emperors unto the Clergy. And it is evident that the learned and ancient Fathers, have committed the The ancient Fathers have committed the deciding of controversies to Emperors. deciding of matters of controversy to Emperors, as it appeareth in Athanasius his second Apology, where he committing himself and his cause to the Emperor, sayeth thus: We require that the emperors most godly and most religious Majesty, may have the hearing of the same matter, before whom we may open both our churches right, and also our own: for we hope that his godliness understanding our reasons, will Athanasius Apol. 2. never condemn us. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speaking to the Donatists, August. contra epist. Parmen. lib. 1. sayeth. Is it not lawful for the Emperor or his deputy to give sentence in a matter of religion? wherefore then went your Ambassadors to the Emperor? why made they him judge of their cause? Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperor commanded that ten Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East, and ten of the west, choose by the Council, should repair to his court and open to him the decrees of the Council, that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures: but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done. Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperor for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention commanded an assembly of Bishops, & best learned to appear before him, and each part to writ a confession of their faith and religion: the which being done at a day appointed, they came to the Court and delivered up their writings to the Emperor, who after earnest prayers made, perusing the writings that were delivered, rend in pieces the confessions, made by the Arians, and Eunomians, and allowed only and received the confession of the Catholics. The practice therefore of the authority of Princes in Ecclesiastical matters, even in determining and judging controversies in Religion, you might have learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 154.. Sect. ult. And by whom can the matters and orders of the Church be better ordained than by the ministers of the Church? And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the forty and seventh Page, that the Bishops aught therefore to ordain ministers, because they are best able to judge another argument of the Papists to the same purpose. of the learning and ability, of those which are the fittest, it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and governors of the Church should appoint and decree of such ceremonies and orders as pertain to the church, for because it is to be supposed that they can best judge of those matters, bestowing their studies that ways, and further best understanding the state of the church about the which they are wholly occupied. Io. Whitgifte. This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause, but it only proveth that it is most convenient and necessary, that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops, doth not derogate from the prince's authority. while they he learned and godly, may have the debating and deciding of matters in religion, neither doth this derogate any thing from the authority of the Prince in the same causes: we see that matters in law are determined by judges & lawyers: so be other civil matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner, and yet is not the authority of the Prince thereby abridged: but what if all the ministers of the Church or most of them be corrupt and ungodly, as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and josias, and as▪ it hath oftentimes been: must all be committed to them then also? Not godly Princes having godly Bishops and ministers of the Church, will altar or change, determine or appoint any thing in matters of religion, without their advise and counsel. But how if there be dissension among them, shall not the Prince determine the controversies, as Constantinus, Theodosius, and other godly Emperors did? wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authority, from godly Princes in matters of the Church. The. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not (M. Doctor (*) It is nothing else, as will appear. to shake hands with the Papists. For the Papists would exempt their Priests from the subjection and from the punishment of the civil magistrate, which we do not. And the Papists would that whatsoever the clergy doth determine, that that sorthwith should be held for good, and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to maintain, and set forth that, be it good or evil, without further iniquity: but we say (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or haw prove you this. that if there be no lawful ministery to set good orders, as in ruinous decays and overthrows of religion, that then the Prince aught to do it, and if when there is a lawful ministery it shall agreed of any unlawful or unmeet order, that the Prince aught to stay that order, and not to suffer it, but to drive them to that which is lawful and meet, and if this be to shake hands with the papists, than M. Doctor is to blame which hath taught us once or twice before, that the appointing of ceremonies of the church, belongeth unto the church. And yet I know that there is one or two of the later writers that think otherwise, but as I take no advantage of their authority which think as I do, so I aught not to be prejudiced by those that think otherwise. But for so much as we have M. Doctor yet of this judgement that the church ceremonies should be ordained by the church, I will travail no further in this matter, considering that the practice of this church, commonly is to refer these matters unto the Ecclesiastical people only this is the difference, that where it is done now of one or a few, we desire that it may be done by others also who have interest in that behalf. Io. Whitgifte. The papists confese that the prince may punish priest, 5, Harding. Yes in good sooth is it: for M. Harding against the Apology, confesseth that the Civil Magistrate may punish with corporal punishment any estate or degree of people, offending either against the first or second table. And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men, be subject to civil Magistrates: and therefore in that Saunders li, 2. point the Papists grant as much as you. Concerning the determination of matters in religion, I know not wherein you differ from them: for though the Prince mislike your determination, yet can he not himself conclude any thing, only he may compel you to go to it again and The Replier giveth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti. take better hold: but if it shall please you to go forward in your determination, or if you cannot agree among yourselves, I see not what authority you have given to the Civil Magistrate, to determine the matter: but for aught that I can espy, if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peevish, either must the Prince have no Religion, or else that which you shall appoint unto him: for potestatem facti, you give him, that is, you make him your executioner, but potestatem juris, you do as fully remove from him, as the papists do: for he hath not (as you say) any authority to make orders or laws in Ecclesiastical matters. Saunders sayeth, and so say all the Papists, that he hath authoritatem promovendi Saunders. religionem: authority to promote religion, but not constituendi, to appoint: and therefore undoubtedly I perceive not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papists. In the chief point I am sure that you agreed fully and flatly with them: and use their arguments and none other: that is in this, that you take from the evil Magistrate omnem potestatem juris, in matters and causes Ecclesiastical. And what Scripture have you to prove that the civil Magistrates authority The Replier uttreth strange doctrine with out proof: & yet would have all proved by scripture. is not as ample and as large in matters of religion, when there is a lawful ministery, as when there is an unlawful ministery? In deed when he hath the one he may the more safely use their advise, and follow their counsel, which he neither may nor aught to do when he hath the other, but his authority is all one over them both: and surely I marvel that you will utter such strange assertions, so peremptorily without any kind of proof. For you that would have all things proved by the Scriptures, have not in this weighty cause used one text of Scripture, but only one borrowed of the Papists, and making directly against you. When I say, that the Church hath authority to appoint Ceremonies, I speak generally of all states of the Church, as well under persecution as under a Christian Magistrate, not secluding, but including, the Christian Magistrate as the chief and principal governor of the Church committed to him next under God: for I do not speak of a Christian Magistrate, as you and the Papists would have me, to wit, as of julius Cesar, Alexander, or Nero: but I speak of him as one appointed by God to govern, not only in the common wealth, but in the Church also. Yea I will go further with you, I make no difference betwixt No such difference between a christian common wealth & the Church as is pretended. a Christian common wealth and the Church of Christ: wonder you as much at it as you will: I have showed my reasons before, and you have not as yet used any to the contrary, wherefore if you think no otherwise of this cause than I have in these words taught you, the civil Magistrate shall be much more beholden unto you, than he is. Certainly I know not of any of the late writers (one or two excepted) that are of your judgement in this cause, and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almost of all the late writers, and namely of such as have in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Prince's authority in Ecclesiastical matters against the English Lovanistes, who have especially sought to impeach the same, I would in more ample manner have prosecuted this cause. But for as much as their books are in every man's hands, it shall be sufficient to refer the Reader to my Lord of Sarisburie his defence of the Apology against Master Harding, my L. of Winchester's answer to Master Fecknam, & Master Nowel's books against Dorman, in all which this matter is very learnedly and painfully handled. Admonition. Is a reformation good for France? and can it be evil for England? is discipline meet for Scotland? and is it unprofitable for this Realm? Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes, to encourage you to go forward, to a thorough and a speedy reformation. You may not do as heretofore you have done, patch and piece, nay rather go backward, and never labour to (t) Heb. 6. 1. contend to perfection. But altogether remove whole Antichrist both head, body, & branch, and perfectly plant that purity of the word; that simplicity of the sacraments, and that severity of discipl ne which Christ hath commanded, and commended to his church. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 138. Sect. 1 Hath there been no reformation in this Church of England since Unthankfulness of the Ad monitors. the Queen's majesties reign? What say you to the abolishing of the usurped power of the Bishop of Rome? what say you to the banishing of the Mass? Nay what say you to the purity of doctrine in all points pertaining to salvation? Is this no reformation with you? O intolerable unthankfulness. T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2. The other point is in the. 138. page, where he most untruly and standerously charges the Authors of the Admonition, and maketh wonderful outcries, as though they should deny that there had been any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queen's Majesty began to reign, manifestly contrary not only to their meaning, but also to their very words, which appeareth in that they move to a through reformation, and to contend, or to labour to perfection, denying only that the reformation which hath been made in her majesties days, is through and perfect. We confess willingly, that next unto the Lord God, that every one of us is most deeply bound to her Majesty, whom he hath used as an excellent instrument to deliver his church here, out of the spiritual Egypt of Popery, and the common wealth also, and the whole land out of the slavery and subjection of strangers, whereunto it was so near. This I say we willingly confess before men, and do in our prayers daily give most humble thanks to God therefore. And by this humble suit and earnest desire, which we have for further reformation, we are so far from unthankfulness unto her Majesty, that we thereby desire the heap of her felicity, and the establishment of her Royal throne amongst us, which then shall be most sure and unremoved, when our Saviour Christ sitteth wholly and fully, not only in his chair to teach, but also in his throne to rule, not alone in the hearts of every one by his spirit, but also generally and in the visible government of his church, by those laws of discipline which he hath prescribed. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the Admonition, page. 137. be these: Is a reformation good for Fraimce. The Admonitors, and the replier mislike our reformation almost wholly. etc. and can it be evil for England? is discipline meet for Scotland. etc. and is it unprofitable for this Realm? To this I answering say, hath there been no reformation in the Church of England since the Queen's majesties reign etc. what wonderful outeryes these be, or how untrue slanders, let the discrete Reader judge. Doth not he that saith (is a reformation good for France, and can it be evil for England) insinuate that there is no reformation in England? In the same place they say, that hitherto we have but patched and peeced, my rather go backward. Moreover to what end doth their book tend, but to the defacing of this reformation? What is it that either they or you commend or like in this Church? nay what is it that you mislike not? For, to the sincerity of doctrine, as it appeareth, you have little regard: all things else you utterly cast down: neither the authority of the Prince, the ministery, the government of the Church, the administration of the Sacraments, the ceremonies, the discipline, the form or matter of public prayers, nor The good they acknowledge of the Queen dissembled. almost any thing else can please you: and howsoever now in words you confess, that you are most deeply bound unto her Majesty. etc. yet both in tongue and in deed, dyners of you declare, that your meaning is nothing less. For why do you then so unorderly, so undoubtedly, so spitefully, publicly and privately, in word and in writing deface her proceedings, slander her government, deprave the reformation that she hath made, with sects and schisms divide the Realm, set dissension among the people, make the Papists more stubborn, drive those back that were wellnigh persuaded, thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestants, encourage her adversaries, separate her faithful subjects one from another, and greatly disquiet herself? But I will not prosecute this matter: only I desire of God most heartily, that it would please him to work that mind and affection in you in deed, that becometh dutiful subjects, and quiet members of the Church. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 138. Sect. 1 England is not bound to the example either of France or England is not bound to other Churches for examples. Scotland: I would they both were (if it pleased God) touching Religion, in that state and condition that England is. I would antichrist were as far from them removed. The Lord make us thankful, and continued this reformation we have, and grant peace to his Church, and either cowert the hearts of those that be enemies unto it, or remove them. T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3 & Pag. 156. Sect. 1 And whereas M. Doctor would bring us into a foolish paradise of ourselves, as though we need not to learn any thing at the churches of France and Scotland, he should have understanded, that as we have been unto them in example, and have provoked them to follow us, so the Lord will have us also profit, and be provoked by their example, and so be mutual helps one to an other, and stir up ourselves with the admonition that our saviour Christ stirred up his Apostles, that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest, but are overrun of others that come after. And whereas he would (*) A slanderous and malicious untruth. privily pinch at the reformation there, for so much as the Lord hath Mat. 20. humbled the one, and exerciseth the other by civil wars and troubles, he should have in stead of rocking us a sleep in our security, put us in remembrance of God's scourges which hung over us, and of God's great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance, and that if he have punished that people of his, which have suffered so much for the profession of the gospel, and which went with so strait a foot in it, with an universal hazard of their goods and lives, that we shall not escape unless we repent speedily of our coldness and halting in religion, and unwillingness, I will not say to hazard to put our lives in danger, but not to lose some of our wealth and honour, for the obtaining of a through reformation of the Church, and advancement of the glory of the Lord. Finally, he would rather have put us in remembrance of the sermon which our saviour Christ Luk. 13. maketh, where he showeth that those cities are not always the greatest sinners, or those whom God is most angry with, which have the heaviest judgements executed upon them, but that thereby the Lord calleth us to repentance, otherwise that we shall likewise perish. This had been more fit for our estate to have been said, than to have after a sort (*) God root out of you this malicious spirit, which deliceth in slanders. insulted upon the afflicted, and daubed up our eyes, that we should not see our misery and our nakedness. Io. Whitgifte. I have said truly, that we are not bound to their examples: I do not deny No Church may challenge to be a pattern necessary to be followed. but that examples may be followed, and one aught to follow an other in that which is good and convenient. But I have showed before, that one Church is not bond of necessity in all things to follow an other: only the Church of Rome is so arrogant and proud as to challenge that prerogative. I have great cause to expostulate with you, for this your unchristian, unbrotherly, and most unjust handling of me. For where, or in what words do I pinch at their reformation? Wherein do I use any insultation upon the afflicted, and against them? is this to pinch at them, or to insult against them, to wish that touching religion, they were in that state and condition that England is? to wish that unto them, that they groan for themselves? Surely flesh and blood will hardly suffer me to put up this injury: But I am taught patience I thank God, and the Lord forgive you, & root out that root of bitterness that is so deep in your heart. Admonition. And here to end, we desire all to suppose that we have not attempted this enterprise for vain glory, gain, preferment, or any other worldly respect. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 139. Sect. 1 I would to God you were as free from vain glory, ambition, and malice, and other sinister affections, as you would seem to be: but no indifferent man reading your book, will so think of you, for besides the opprobrious and unseemly terms you use towards your superiors, your Admonition smelleth altogether of popularity and vain glory. Admonition. Neither yet judging ourselves, so exactly to have set out the state of the Church reform as that nothing more could be added, or a more perfect form and order drawn, for that were great presumption, to arrogate so much unto ourselves, seeing that as we are but weak and simple souls, so God hath raised up men of profound judgement, and notable learning. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 139. Sect 3. And yet in the beginning of your book, you call it a true platform of a Church reform: and I dare say you think it to be as perfect a form of a Church, as all the best learned & godlyest men in the world could frame: for it is well known that men of your disposition, think commonly as well of themselves, as they do of Men think too well of themselves. any man else, and better too. But we grant unto you, that you are so far from setting down a perfect state of a Church reform, that you may rather be called confounders and deformers, than builders and reformers. Admonition. But thereby to declare our good wills towards the setting forth of God's glory, and the building up of his Church, accounting this as it were but an entrance into further matter, hoping that our God, who hath in us begun this good work, will not only in time hereafter make us strong, and able to go forward therein: but also move other upon whom he hath bestowed greater measure of his gifts and graces, to labour more thoroughly and fully in the same. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 140. God grant that you may become builders and not destroyers: I think in deed you have but begun: I know there is other Suspected opinions behind. opinions among you, which be not yet commonly known: and truly I doubt that you will never end: but from time to time coin new devices to trouble the Church, until you have brought that heavy plague of God upon us, which the like kind of men through their schisms and heresies have brought upon all those places almost, where any of the Apostles preached, and where the Gospel Domestical dissension for runner of destruction. was first planted: and commonly before ruin and destruction, cometh inward discord and domestical dissension. The Lord make us thankful for the purity of his Gospel, that we by his mercy enjoy: the Lord root out schisms and factions from among us, and either convert or confound the authors of them: The Lord of his singular goodness continued our gracious Queen Elizabeth unto us, and give us faithful and obedient hearts to his word, and to her Majesty. Amen. T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 1 In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but words of reproach against the authors of the Admonition, and calling still, as his manner is, for more punishment for them, which I will not bestow the answer of. Io. Whitgifte. And to this end have I here set my words down, that the Reader may understand what words of reproach those be that you charge me with, but seeing it will not please you to bestow the answer of them, I shall also be content to spare so much labour. Admonition. Where as immediately after the last Parliament, held at Westminster, begun in Anno. 1570. and ended Anno. 1571. the ministers of Gods holy word and sacraments were called before her majesties high Commissioners, and enforced to subscribe unto the Articles, if they would keep their places and livings and some for refusing to subscribe, were unbrotherly and uncharitably entreated, and from their offices and places removed: May it please therefore this honourable and high Court of Parliament in consideration of the premises, to take a view of such causes as then did withhold, and now doth the foresaid Ministers, from subscribing and consenting unto those foresaid Articles, by way of purgation to discharge themselves of all disobedience towards the Church of God, and their Sovereign, and by way of most humble entreaty, for the removing away and utter abolishing of all such corruptions and abuses, as withheld them, through which this long time, brethren have been at unnatural war and strife among themselves, to the hindrance of the gospel, to the joy of the wicked, and to the grief and dismay of all those that profess Christian religion, and labour to attain Christian reformation. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 146. 147. 148. You complain much of unbrotherly and uncharitable entreating complaint of persecution without cause of you, of removing you from your offices, and places. Surely in this point I must compare you to certain Heretics that were in Augustine's time, who most bitterly by sundry means afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Church, yet for all that cried out, that they were extremely dealt with, and cruelly persecuted by them: or else unto a shrewd and ungracious wife, which beating her husband, by her clamorous complaints, maketh her neighbours Persecution of the tongue. believe that her husband beateth her: or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequys, that did steal and run away with the priests purse▪ and yet cried always as he ran, stay the thief, stay the thief, and thus crying escaped, and yet he was the thief himself. You are as gently entreated as may be, no kind of brotherly persuasion omitted towards you, most of you as yet keep your livings, though some one or two be displaced, you are offered all kind of friendlynesse, if you could be content to conform yourselves, yea but to be quiet and hold your peace. You on the contrary side most unchristianly, and most unbrotherly, both publicly and privately rail on those, that show this humanity towards you, slander them by all means you can, and most untruly report of them. seeking by all means their discredit. Again they as their Disobedience. allegiance to the Prince, and duty to laws requireth, yea and as some of them by oath are bound, do execute that discipline which the Prince, the law, and their oath requireth: you contrary to all obedience, duty, and oath, openly violate, and break those laws, orders, and statutes, which you aught to obey, and to the which A token of a good conscience. some of you by oath is bound. If your doings proceed in deed from a good conscience, then leave that living and place, which bindeth you to those things that be against your conscience, for why should you strive with the disquietness, both of yourselves and others, to keep that living which by law you can not, except you offend against your conscience? Or what honesty is there to swear to statutes and laws, and when you have so done, contrary to your oath to break them, and yet still to remain under them, and enjoy that place which requireth obedience, and subjection to them? For my part I think it much better, by removing you from your livings to offend you, than by suffering you to enjoy them, to offend the Prince, the law, conscience, and God. And before God I speak it, if I were persuaded as you seem to be, I would rather quietly forsake all the livings I have, than be an occasion of strife, and contention in the Church, and a cause of stumbling to the weak, and rejoicing to the wicked. I know God would provide for me, if I did it, bona conscientia: yea surely I would rather dye, than be an author of schisms, a disturber of the common peace, and quietness of the Church and state. There is no reform Church that I can hear Every church hath a determinate order of ceremonies tell of, but it hath a certain prescript and determinate order, aswell touching ceremonies, and discipline, as doctrine, to the which all those are constrained to give their consent, that will live under the protection of it: and why then may not this Church of England have so in like manner? Is it meet that every man should have his own fancy, or live as him list? Truly I know not whereunto these your doings can tend, but either to Anabaptisme, or to mere confusion. But now to the reasons that move you, not to subscribe to those Articles ministered unto you, by her majesties high Commissioners. T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti. Deus bone, quam te illud non decet. here M. Pleasant divinity. Doctor was disposed to make himself, and his Reader merry, but it is with the bagpipe or country mirth, not with the harp or lute, which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed by together the old tale of the cursed wife, and of the thief that took away the Priests purse, very familiar and homely gear: It might peradventure make M. Doctor hop about the house, but the learned and the wise, can not dance by this instrument. It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their livings without just cause, to heretics. cursed wives, and to thieves, but all men do understand how rightly. What his troubles be within, and in his conscience, the Lord God and he knoweth best, but as for the outward persecution which he suffereth, it is not such as he need thus to stoop and to groan, and to blow underneath it, as though he had some great burden upon his shoulders. And if he complain of the persecution of the tongue, to let pass his immoderate heat of speech, which he useth with those that he hath to do withal, the tongue which is more intemperate than his is in all his book, shall hardly be found. Io. Whitgifte. And I thank God, I can be merry with the bagpipe, I am neither ashamed of the Instrument, nor of the country. But what divinity call you this? alack poor spite at the bagpipe. Surely you do me a pleasure when you tell me of it. You have omitted nothing that by any means might serve you for a jest. O great gravity. etc. But let us leave puerilia, pueris. I know none of you put from your livings, without most just cause: if there be any injuried that ways (God be thanked) they may find justice. My quietness within my conscience (I most humbly thank my God therefore) doth mitigate the heat of the slanderous generation, and maketh me more willing to deal against that sect, that can not be maintained without such kind of uncharitable, and slanderous dealing. I remember what Cyprian saith to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Ecclesiastical Cyprian. discipline is not therefore to be left of, nor the severity that becometh a Priest to be slackened, because we are reviled and evil spoken of. etc. And again: The opprobrious speeches of the wicked aught not to move us so, that we decline from the right way, and the sure rule, seeing that the Apostle instructeth us, saying: If I▪ should please men, I were not the servant of Christ. If the heat of my tongue be immoderate, what shall be said of yours? But this kind of dealing is nothing meet for us. Wherefore if you continued in this vain, you shall have the best game for me. T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. And although it be unreasonable enough, that he should not give men leave to complain of their troubles, when he glorieth in troubling them, yet that of all is most untolerable, that besides the injury which he doth them, he is angry that they will not lay hands of themselves by casting themselves out of their livings, or ever they be cast out by him. Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria, which when he had caused Q. Scevola a singular man to be wounded, and saw that he died not of it, convented him before the judges, and being asked what he had to accuse him of, answered, for that he did not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was stricken, to enter into his body: even so M. Doctor contenteth not himself only to do injuries unto men, but accuseth them also, that they will not do it unto themselves, or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so far, as he would have them. Io. Whitgifte. I trust there is not one that can justly say, I have without great cause molested him: if there be any such, or whom I have by any means injuried, I refuse not to answer, and to satisfy him: yea it is my desire that it may come to the trial, so shall many slanderous speeches, together with the authors of them be found as they are. C. Fimbria was a very proud, seditious Roman, and one that disquieted the C. Fimbria. Q. Scevola. state of the common wealth, and greatly envied his superiors. Q. Scevola was a wise and a prudent Senator, one that lived in authority, and observed laws himself, and caused the same to be observed by other. Scevola surely you can not be, for you are neither of that credit, for wisdom, nor of that authority in the common wealth, nor so diligent an observer of good orders and laws: your conditions come nearer to Fimbria, I will not conclude, you shall do it yourself. If I have done you any injury, prosecute it to the uttermost, and spare not, I never entreated you to hold your peace. The greatest injury that I acknowledge myself guilty of, is unto the College, that I so long suffered you contrary to your express oath, to usurp a place therein, to the great hindrance and disquieting thereof. T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to departed from his living, in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there used? Is it not enough to abstain from them, if there be any evil in them, or to declare the unlawfulness of them, if his calling do suffer him, when as the reformation is not in his power? And if either of this abstaining, or declaration of this unlawfulness of them, troubles be moved, there is no more cause why they should give place, than the other which like of those disorders, yea there is less cause, for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other, and for that by their departure out of their places, room is made for those which will like of those disorders, which the other misliked, which is to the hurt of that company, or congregation in such places. Io. Whitgifte. If he be sworn to keep those orders keeping his living: if as honest men as he is will like of them: If his equals, or rather betters, might supply his place: I think he aught rather to satisfy his oath, or to refuse his living, if he will avoid perjury: yea though there were no such meet people to succeed him. But if the case be this, that a man shall directly swear, either to do such a thing by such a time, or to leave his place, if by that time he neither do the thing by oath required, nor leave his place, but still usurp the same, at the lest the space of five years: I think he aught to be displaced for perjury: which is a greater matter than either cap or surplice. I do but now put a case, that men may understand every man that is displaced, not to be displaced without great and urgent occasion. I would not enter into this vain, if I were not urged. Therefore to answer in one word for all, I have put no man out of his living, but there is greater cause why he should be ashamed to complain of injury, than I, to do according to my oath and duty. T. C. Pag. 156. towards the end. And as for M. Doctor's easiness to departed from his living, rather than he would 'cause any trouble, he giveth men great cause to doubt of, which having divers great livings, and amongst them a benefice, is very loath to go from troubling of others, to do his duty at any of them. It is true that the Church of England may have an order, whereunto it may justly require the subscription of the ministers in England. And so is it likewise untrue, that we desire that every one should have his own fancy, and live as him listeth, for we also desire an uniform order, but such, and in such sort, as we have before declared. As for the old accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion, it is answered before, therefore according to my promise, I will leave your words, and if you have any matter, I will speak to that. Io. Whitgifte. This was objected and answered before: God knoweth my heart, and I am ready to give mine account when I am thereunto by order called: orders you will admit, but such as pleaseth you, that is, you will be in order, if you may do what you list. ¶ Of subscribing to the Communion Book. Tract. 21. Certain general faults, wherewith the book is charged by the Admonitors. Chap. 1. the first Division. The first article. first that the book commonly called the book of common prayers for the Church of England, Of subscribing to the communion book. authorized by Parliament, and all and every contents therein, be such as are not repugnant to the word of God. Admonition. Albeit, right Honourable and dearly beloved, we have at all times born with that which we could not amend in this book, and have used the same in our ministery, so far forth as we might, reverencing those times, and those people, in which and by whom it was first authorized, being studious of peace, and of the building up of Christ's church, yet now being compelled by subscription to allow the same, and to confess it not to be against the word, of God in any point, but tolerable: we must needs say as followeth, that this book is an unperfect book, culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Mass book, full of all abominations, for some, and many of the contents therein, be such as are against the word of God, as by his grace shall be proved unto you. And by the way we can not but much marvel at the crafcie wiliness of those men, whose parts it had been first to have proved each and every content therein, to be agreeable to the word of God, seeing that they forcemen by subscription to consent unto it, or else send them packing from their callings. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 149. Sect. 1 And what reason can you give why you should not aswell all own Scilicet, the Communion book. of it by subscription, as you say, that you have hitherto done by using of it in your ministery? Will you speak one thing, and do an other? Will you not subscribe to that, which you publicly use, and give your consent unto? T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1 The Admonition hath no such thing, as M. Doctor charges the authors thereof with, that they did ever allow of the book of service. It saith, they bore with it, and used it so far, as they might, and therefore now when it came to the approving of it by subscription, they refused, and there is no man which can not understand, that it is one thing to beat with a thing, and an other to approve it, and therefore to bear, and to use it so far as might be, may well agreed with their refusal of subscription, so that M. Doctor's note is not worth the noting. The Apostles did bear with the infirmity of the jews addicted to the observation of the ceremonial law, yet they never allowed that infirmity, and they were so far from approving it by subscribing, that they written against it. Io. Whitgifte. They say they have not only born with it, but used it also in their ministery. etc. & he that useth a thing doth as much allow of it by using, as he could do by subscribing. But I will not contend with you about a matter of so small weight: for neither is their learning, discretion, or judgement such, that the book is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it. They show their natures bend to contention, and unreverent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them, and that is all that can be gathered out of their book. The Apostles refused not to subscribe unto such things as they permitted unto the jews for a time, neither did they bear with any thing, for their infirmity, against the which they written. If they have done any such thing, note the place. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 149. Sect. 1 If those people by whom this book was first authorized, were studious of peace, and of building up of Christ's Church, as you say they were, than you that seek to deface it, are disturbers of peace, and destroyers of the Church of Christ. They were singular learned men, zealous in God's religion, blameless in life, and Martyrs at their end, for either all, or the most part of them have sealed this book with their blood. But by the A note by the way. way this is to be noted, that you confess yourselves to have allowed that (by using of it) which you say is against the word of God. T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1 Those saith M. Doctor which authorised this book, were studious of peace, and of building of Christ's Church, therefore they that speak against it (which he calleth defacing) are disturbers of the peace, and destroyers of the Church. So I will reason. (*) Unequal come parisons For in these points they were not builders up of Christ's church. Gedeon was studious of peace, and of building of the Church, therefore they which spoke against the Ephod which he made were disturbers of the peace, and destroyers of the church. We speak against Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments, & such like, which Luther being studious of peace, and of the building of the church did hold, and yet we are not therefore disturbers of peace, or destroyers of the church. Although they were excellent personages, yet their knowledge was in part, and although they brought many things to our light, yet they being sent out in the morning, or ever the sun of the Gospel was risen so high, might oversee many things, which those that are not so sharp of sight as they were, may see, for because that which they want in the sharpness of sight, they have by the benefit and clearness of the sun, and of the light. They sealed not the book of service with their blood (as M. Doctor saith) for some that suffered for the truth, declared openly their misliking of certain things in it, and as for the other they could never dye for that book, more than for the liturgy used in the French church, or at Geneva. For they received not the sentence of condemnation, because they approved that book, but because they improved the articles drawn out of the Mass book. And if they had died for that book (as in deed they died for the book of God) yet the authority of their martyrdom could not take away from us this liberty that we have to inquire of the cause of their death. justine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs, and yet a man may not say, that they sealed their errors which they written with their blood, or with this glory of their martyrdom, prejudice those which speak or writ against their errors, for this is to oppose the blood of men, to the blood of the son of God. Io. Whitgifte. These be the words of the Admonition: they say that the Authors of that book were studious of peace, and of the building up of Christ's Church. and therefore upon their own words and confession, I ground mine argument. This peace that they were studious of, and sought to maintain by collecting and authorizing this book, was a godly peace, sought to be maintained by godly means: and therefore such as shall deface that godly means, whereby they procured peace, can not the judged otherwise, than disturbers of the same peace. Gedeon by making the Ephod did not seek peace, but rather glory, for he erected gedeon's Ephod. it to be a monument of his victory: Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other end and purpose than God did appoint it: the Ephod that Gedeon made, was the cause of idolatry. Likewise Images are expressly forbidden in the word of God, & there is a direct commandment against them: so is consubstantiation also. But the book of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures, appointed to the true worshipping of God, most repugnant to all Idolatry, & Idolatrous worshipping: and therefore these similitudes & examples that you use be nothing like: it is neither like to gedeon's Ephod▪ nor maynteineth Luther's Images: or consubstantiation, but overthroweth them all. Their knowledge was in part, in that sense that the Apostle speaketh. Ex part The praise of the makers of the book. enim cognoscimus, & ex part prophetamus: We know in part, and we prophecy in part. etc. But if they be compared unto men, I think for learning, zeal, godliness & sound 1. Cor. 1 . judgement, most of them have not been overmatched, by any that hath followed. And surely their learning & judgement was singular. But no marvel it is, though you make so small account of me poor wretch, when you so basely speak of them. Undoubtedly in comparison of yourselves, I think you contemn all learned men both living & dead. They may well be said to have sealed this book with their blood, How they sea led the book with their blood. because they were martyred for that religion that is contained in this book, and according to the which this book was framed: and if they were condemned, for improving the articles drawn out of the Mass book▪ (as you say) why may it not be likewise affirmed, that they received the sentence of condemnation, for approving the Articles contained in the Communion book: I know the book they died for, was the book of God, yet did not the adversary pretend that, but the articles drawn out of this, and such like books, grounded upon the word and book of God. Name one of them, who at the time of his death, or in the time of his imprisonment, declared openly his misliking of certain things in this book. I can show you the contrary: That notable vessel of God, for learning, zeal, and virtue, inferior to none of our M. Ridleys' testimony of the book of common prayer age, Master Ridley Bishop of London, in his (last farewell) as it is called, looking daily and hourly when he should go to the stake, giveth this testimony of this same book of common prayers, the which the Church of England now useth, and you so contemptuously reject. This Church (saith he) of England had of late, of the M. Fox. infinite goodness, and abundant grace of almighty God, great substance, great riches of heavenly treasure, plenty of God's true and sincere word, the true and wholesome administration of Christ's holy sacraments, the whole profession of Christ's religion, truly and plainly set forth in baptism, the plain declaration and understanding of the same taught in the holy▪ Catechism, to have been learned of all true Christians. This Church had also a true and sincere form and manner of the Lords supper, wherein according to jesus Christ's ordinance & holy institution, Christ's commandments were executed and done. For upon the bread and wine set upon the Lord's table, thanks were given, the commemoration of the Lords death was had, the bread in the remembrance of Christ's body torn upon the cross, was broken: and the cup in remembrance of Christ's blood was distributed, and both communicated unto all that were present, and would receive them, and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do. All was done openly in the vulgar tongue, so that every thing might be both easily herded, and plainly understood of all the people, to Gods high glory, and the edification of the whole Church. This Church had of late the whole divine service, all common and public prayers ordained to be said and herded in the common congregarion, not only form and fashioned to the true vain of the holy Scripture, but also set forth according to the commandment of the Lord, and S. Paul's doctrine, for the people's edification in their vulgar tongue. But I know his testimony shall weigh with you, as all other men's do, howbeit I trust it will pierce the hearts of the godly. Neither is this to oppose the blood of men, to the blood of the son of God, when the martyrdom of men is brought into bear witness unto the truth of God. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 149. Sect. ult. &. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The unperfectness of this book, and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popish dunghill, the Mass book, with the contents therein that be against the word of God, shall appear I am sure in your several reasons, for it is not sufficient for you, barely to say so, without wit, learning, or reason. This you know right well, that in so saying you make the Papists Advantage given to the papists by the Admonitours leap for joy, because they have got such companions to assault this book, whilst they rest them, & lie as it were in sleep. O that the wise men of this realm (such I mean as be in authority) see not this Popish practice, and seek not with more earnestness to prevent it. Will you suffer the Papists to gather strength, and to multiply, by tolerating such Libelers, under the pretence of reformation, to discredit so much as lieth in them, yea to overthrow the whole state, and substance of religion in this Church? Be not secure, but watch, and remember the beginning and increase of the Anabaptistes of late in Germany, which I have described in my Preface to this book. You say, that you can not but much marvel at the crafty wiliness of those men, whose parts it had been first to have proved each and every content therein to be agreeable to God's word. etc. Nay surely, but it were your parts rather to prove The apponent must prove, by rules of Logic. that there is something therein contrary or not agreeable to God's word. For such as be learned, and know the manner of reasoning say, that the Opponent must prove or improve, and not the answerer. They stand to the defence and maintenance of the book: you seek to overthrow it: it is your parts therefore to justify your assertions, by reasons and arguments. T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1 For the Papists triumph I have answered before, and I will not strive about the goats 〈◊〉, who is the apponent, and who the respondent in this difference. Io. Whitgifte. Thus you pass all this over in silence, for I do not remember where you have answered one word to it. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. Admonition. They should first prove by the word of God, that a reading service going before and with the administration of the sacraments, is according to the word of God, that wafer cakes for their bread when they minister it. surplice and cope to do it in, churching of women coming in veils abvong the Psalm to her. I have lifted up mine eyes unto the hills. etc. and such other Psal. 120. foolish things, are agreeable to the written word of the almighty. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 151. Sect. 2. &. 152. Sect, 1. I do not well understand your meaning: would you have us to prove, that to read prayers before, and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion book agreeable to the scripture. the sacraments, is according to the word of God? In deed in the book of service there is first appointed to be read some one or two profitable sentences, moving either to prayer, or to repentance, after followeth a general confession, than the Lords prayer, and certain Psalms, next certain chapters out of the old and new Testament. etc. last of all, the administration of the sacrament. If you ask me of the sentences: they be scripture. If of the lords prayer Psalms, and chapters: they be scripture also. If of the sacrament of the Supper: it is according to scripture, Matth. 26. Mark. 14. Luke. 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of the other prayers annexed: they be likewise according to the scripture, for they be made to God in Christ's name, for such things as we need, or as we desire, according to that saying of Christ: Quicquid petieritis etc. Whatsoever you ask my father in my name. etc. And again: Petite & dabitur vobis: Ask, and it shall be given unto you. Mat. 7. & jacob. 1. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask it. etc. And. 1. Timoth. 2. with other infinite places besides. If you would have us to prove that to read prayers or scripture Only Zuinfildians misliked reading of scriptures. in the Church is according to the word of God (which you seem to deny) than we say unto you▪ that if there were any piety in you, any religion, any learning, you would make no such vain and godless doubts. was there ever any from the beginning of the world to this day (the Zuinfildians only excepted) that misliked reading of prayers and scriptures in the Church, but you? Of wafer cakes, ministering in surplice, or cope, & churching of women, I have spoken Pag. 154. Sect. 3 before: wafer cakes be bread: surplice & cope, by those that have authority in the church, are thought to pertain to comeliness and decency. Churching of women is to give thanks for their deliverance. Bread to be used in the Communion, comeliness and decency, giving of thanks for deliverance out of peril & danger, be agreeable to God's word: therefore all these things be agreeable to god's word. The form of bread, whether it aught to be cake bread, or loaf bread: every particular Determination of the Church in things indifferent. thing that pertaineth to decency or comeliness, at what time, in what place, with what words we aught to give thanks, is not particularly written in scripture, no more than it is, that you were baptised. And therefore (as I have proved before) in such cases the Church hath to determine and appoint an order. Admonition. But their craft is plain: wherein they deceive themselves, standing so much upon this word repugnant, as though nothing were repugnant or against the word of God, but that which is expressly forbidden by plain commandment, they know well enough, and would confess, if either they were not blinded, or else their hearts hardened, that in the circumstances, each content, 〈◊〉 judgement. wherewith we justly find fault, and they too contentiously for the love of their livings maintain, smelling of their old Popish priesthood, is against the word of God. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 156. &. 157. Sect. 1 If they were disposed to be crafty, I think they might soon deceive you, for any great circumspection or discretion that appeareth to be in you, by this book. You find great fault, that we stand so much upon this word repugnant, as though nothing were repugnant or against the word of God, but that which is expressly forbidden by plain commandment, and herein (you say) we deceive ourselves. But you do not tell us how we are deceived, neither do you let us understand, what you think this word (repugnant) doth signify. This is but slender dealing, to find a fault, and not to correct it: you should yet have told us your opinion of the signification of this word, seeing so great a matter doth depend upon it. True it is, that this word (repugnant) or (against the word of God) is to The word (repugnant) expounded. be contrary to that which in the word is commanded or forbidden, not only in manifest words, but also in sense and understanding: except you understand this word (repugnant) on this sort, you will bring in many points of dangerous doctrine: for we read in the Acts. 2. &. 4. that the Apostles had all things common, and yet Christians have not all things common. Those that were then converted to the Gospel, sold all they had, and laid it at the Apostles feet. Act 4. Now it is far otherwise. Then Christ ministered his supper at night, after supper, we in the morning before dinner: he in a private house, we in the public Church: he to men only, we to women also, with a great many of such apparent contrarieties, which be none in deed, because they be not against any thing commanded or forbidden to be done, or not to be done, either in express words, or in true sense. And therefore you are greatly deceived, when you think that we are persuaded, that those things which you found fault with, be against the word of God. As for this your saying (If either they were not blinded, or else their hearts hardened) I pray God it be not most aptly spoken of yourselves, but I will not take upon me to judge those secrets, that be only known to God and yourselves. Admonition. By the word of God it is an office of preaching, they make it an office of reading. Christ said (a) Mat. 26. 19 Mar. 16. 15 go preach. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 158. Sect. ult. You say, by the word of God the ministery is an office of preaching, and we make it an office of reading. To prove it to be an office of preaching you note in your margin, Matth. 26. But I think your meaning is the. 28. and Mark 16. where Christ saith to his Disciples: Go therefore and teach all nations. etc. What if a man should say unto you, that this commission was given only to the Apostles? for he saith: Go into the whole world, where as you teach now, that no man may come into the ministery, except he first have a stock, & then must he keep him with his flock, and go no further. If this doctrine be true, then can not this place serve your turn: for as the office of Apostle is ceased by your doctrine, so is this commission also, except you will have the one part to stand, that is, Go and preach, and this to be abrogated, In universum mundum, into the whole world. Io. Whitgifte. You have not anywhere answered directly to any of this, and to the most of it, and divers other things included betwixt the. 151. Page and the. 171. You have not answered one word: which the Reader by conference may understand: and I for brevities sake have omitted to set down. ¶ Of reading of Homilies and the Apocrypha in the Church. Chap. 2. the. 1. Division. Admonition. The second reason. In this book also it is appointed that after the Creed if there be no sermon, an homily must follow either already set out, or hereafter to be set out. This is scarce plain dealing, that they would have us to consent unto that which we never see, and which is to be set out hereafter, we having had such cause already to distrust them by that which is already set out, being corrupt and strange to maintain an unlearned and reading ministery. And sith it is plain that men's works aught to be kept in, and nothing else but the voice of God and holy Scriptures, in which only are contained (y) 2. Ti. 3. 6. 17. all fullness and sufficiency to decide controversies, 2. Pet. 1. 20 Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 18 etc. must sound in his church, for the very name Apocrypha testifieth, that they aught rather to be kept close, than to be uttered. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Your second reason in few words is this: In the book of common Homilies. prayer it is appointed that after the Creed, if there be no sermon, an Homily must follow, either already set out, or hereafter to be set out, but you know not what will hereafter be set out, therefore you will not subscribe. You have no cause to suspect any thing touching religion set out by public authority (for so is the book) or hereafter to be set out by common authority. Hitherto you are not able to convince any Homily set out by common authority, of any error, and therefore you aught not Our homilies cannot be accused of any error. to be suspicious of any that is to come. If any Homily shall hereafter be set out, wherein you mislike any thing, you need not to read it, the book doth not appoint you this or that Homily to read, but some one which you like best. But what need you to be scrupulous in this matter? if you be disposed to preach, then need you read no Homily at all, therefore this is no reason. T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 2. I answer that although it be meet, that as we hope that the Homilies which are made already be godly, so those that shall be made hereafter, shallbe likewise: yet considering the mutability of men, and that of ten-times to the worse, it is not mere. nay, it is merely unlawful, to subscribe to a blank, seeing that we cannot witness or allow of those things which we have not seen nor heard. Io. Whitgifte. If you be disposed to quarrel, it is an easy matter to pick out occasions, but your suspicion is without cause, and I think a modest protestation in that point would not be refused. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. 4. This assertion (that in the holy Scriptures is contained all fullness to decide controversies) if you mean controversies in matters of faith, and in matters touching salvation, is very true, but you have used little discretion in quoting some places to prove the same. I find no fault with you for citing the sixte verse of the. 2. Tim. 3. for the. 16. verse, that is but a small oversight, and it may be in the Printer: but how do you conclude this assertion of the words of Peter. 2. Epist. cap. 1. verse. 20. which be these, so that you first know that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private motion: for this place only proveth that the Scriptures be not of men, but of the holy ghost: it speaketh nothing of the sufficiency of the Scripture. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 172. Sect. 1. 2. 3. That place also. 1. Cor. 1. is not fitly applied to this purpose: there is Scripture sufficient directly to prove the sufficiency of scripture, so that you should not have needed to give the adversary occasion to carp at the unaptness of these places for that purpose. Homilies containing doctrine agreeable to the Scriptures, be of the same nature that sermons be: Wherefore if it be not lawful in the Church to read Homilies, neither is it lawful to preach Sermons: The reason is all one, neither is there any difference, but that Homilies be read in the book, Sermons said without the book. Homilies are pithy, learned, and sound: sermons oftentimes be Some Homilies better than some sermons. words without matter, unlearned, erroneous. T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. ult. The place unto the Corinth's, is the same unto the Romans, and M. Doctor approving one hath no cause to find fault with the other. For the hemilies, first of all I have showed how absurd a saying, and how unlike a divine it is, to match reading of homilies with preaching of sermons. For if the reading of the holy Scriptures is nothing so fruitful as the preaching of them, much less is the reading of homilies to be for their fruit matched with preaching of sermons. Io. Whitgifte. Neither of both the places doth prove directly that, for the which the Authors of the Admonition do use them: and there be other places more manifest which they have omitted. I have answered in that place to all your Reply concerning this point: I do not match reading of Homilies with Sermons simply, or with all sermons, but with Reading of Scriptures a means to judge of sermons. some: and to some sermons I do prefer the Reading of Homilies for the causes contained in mine Answer to the Admonition. Both the reading and the preaching of the Scriptures is necessary, and the one in diverse respects as necessary, and in some respects more necessary than the other. For the Scripture is the rule to discern and judge sermons and preachers by: Christ willeth to take heed of false Math. 7. Prophets. Math. 7. Which can not be done without the diligent reading of the Scriptures: those of Thessalonica are to be commended, for trying by the Scriptures the Act. 17. doctrine preached unto them: Act. 17. S. john willeth that the spirits be tried, whether john. epist. 4. Cal. 1. they be of God or not, which must be by the Scriptures. S. Paul Gal. 1. willeth them to hold him accursed that shall preach any other Gospel unto them, which they can not do without that knowledge, which God doth give unto them by reading of the Scriptures. Infinite places there be, that tendeth to this end, but I have spoken of this matter before. This is my opinion that both reading and preaching be most necessary: but in some respects the one to be preferred before the other. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. ult. There remaineth that I show briefly, that neither the Homilies nor the Apocrypha, are at all to be red in the Church. Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lord kept with his people in times past, when he commanded that no vessel, nor no instrument, either bosom, or flesh hook, or pan, etc. should come into the temple▪ but those only which were sanctified and set apart for that use. And in Leviticus, he will have no other trumpets blown to call the Numb. 10. people together, but those only which were set apart for that purpose. What should the meaning of this law be? The matter of other common vessels and trumpets, was the same oftentimes which there's was, the same form also, and the other besoms and hooks and trumpets able to serve for the uses ofsweeping and sounding. etc. as well as those of the temple, and as those which were set apart, wherefore might not these then as well be used in the temple as others? Forsooth, because the Lord would by these rudiments & pedagogy teach, that he would have nothing brought into the church, but that which he had appointed, not, not although they seemed in the judgement of men, as good as those things which God himself had placed there. Which thing is much more to be observed in this matter, seeing that the Homilies red, be they never so learned and pithy, neither the Apocrypha, are to be compared either in goodness within themselves, either in fruit, or in effect towards the hearer, with the authentical scriptures of God. Now if a man will say that the Homilies do explain, and lay open the scriptures, I answer, that the word of God also is plain and 19 Psal. easy to be understanded, and such as giveth understanding to idiots and to the simple. And if 1. Prou. there be hardness in them, yet the promise of the assistance of God's spirit, that God hath given to the reading of the Scriptures in the church, which he hath not given to homilies▪ or to the Apocrypha, will be able to weigh with the harduesse, and to over come it, so that there shall easily appear greater profit to come unto the church by reading of the scriptures▪ than by reading of homilies. Io. Whitgifte. All this of the vestels of the temple, the instruments, beesoms, flesh hooks, trumpets, etc. is superstitious, and proveth nothing, except it can be showed that the Lord hath commanded only the Canonical scriptures to be red in the Church and nothing else: or that the Lord hath as particularly expressed all things to be used in the Church under the Gospel, as he did in the temple under the law, the contrary whereof I have proved Tract. 2. and the kind of reasoning that you use in this and other places Tract. 2. Cap. 6. Diu. 1. &. 2. upon similitudes is not of sufficient force to prove any thing, only it carrieth away the ignorant people. In the rest of this portion you argue against yourself: for you prove the excellenty, and the worthiness of the Scriptures, and the great commodity that cometh by reading of them, which I have laboured against the authors of the Admonition to verify. But what can you thereupon conclude against Homilies, that may not be in like manner against Sermons, or other interpretation of the Scriptures? and rather against the one, (that is sermons) than against the other. For as I said before, I make this only difference betwixt Homilies & Sermons, that the one is pronounced within the book, the other not so. If you object & say that the Preacher is directed by the spirit of God, I will answer that the writers of Homilies, be so likewise. And what can you allege in this point for the one, that I can not allege for the other? The promise of the assistance of God's spirit, is as well given to him that writeth Homilies, & to those that hear them, as it is to such as study for their sermons, & such as hear them. To the Scriptures I give the chief pre-eminence, but yet both Sermons, and all other kinds of teaching, publishing the doctrine contained in the Scriptures, have their singular commodities, and necessary uses in the Church of God. But either I understand you amiss, or else do you not well agree with your T. C. seemeth to be contrary to himself. self: for let the Reader consider the great commodity, that you truly give to the reading of the Scripture in this place, with that abasing of the same, that in the defence of the authors of the Admonition you use Pag. 173. which I will also note when I come Pag. 173. Sect. ult. to that place. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 158. Sect. 1 Besides this the policy of the church of God in times past is to be followed herein, that for the expounding of darker places, places of more easiness aught to be joined together, as in the persecution of Antiochus, where they could not have the commodity of preaching, the jews did appoint at their meeting always a piece of the law to be red, and with all a piece of the Prophets which expounded that piece of the law, rather than to bring in interpretations of men to be red. And because I am entered into that matter, here cometh to be considered, the practice also of the church, both before our saviour Christ's coming, and after, that when the churches met together, there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the Scriptures, for so is the Liturgy described in the Acts. And it is not to be thought, but that they had those which made expositions 13. Act. of the law & the Prophets. And besides that they had Onkelos the Calday paraprast, both Galatyne, 15. Act. and Rabbi Moses (surnamed Maynion) writ, that jonathan an other of the Calday paraphrasts flourished in our saviour Christ's time, whose writings & paraphrases upon the scriptures, are esteemed comparable in that kind of paraphrastical writing, with any which hath laboured that ways, & if any men's writings were to be red in the church, those paraphrases which in explaining the scripture, go lest from it, and which kept not only the numbered of sentences, but almost the very number of words, were of all most fit to be red in the church, seeing therefore (I say) the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church, and contented itself with the scriptures, it can not be but a most dangerous attempt, to bring any thing into the church to be red, besides the word of God. This practice (*) Untruth as will appear. continued still in the Churches of God after the Apostles times, as may appear by the second Apology of justine Martyr, which showeth that their manner was to read in the church the monuments of the Prophets, and of the Apostles, and if they had red any thing else, it is to be supposed that he would have set it down, considering that his purpose there, is to show the whole order which was used in their churches then. The same may appear in the first homily of Origen upon Exodus, and upon the judges. Io. Whitgifte. Surely in all this there is nothing spoken against reading of Homilies, that may Sermons are of the same nature with Homilies. not in like manner be alleged against preaching of sermons, & other godly exercises of interpreting the scriptures: for if Homilies interpreting the scriptures according to the true meaning, & sense of them, be the interpretations of men, and therefore not to be red in the Church, whose interpretations shall we call Sermons, and other readings? The one as well as the other is uttered by men, & by men in that order framed. But I think that no right and true interpretation of the Scripture is to be The true interpretation of the scripture is not to be accounted as of man. counted man's, though it be written, red, or preached by man, for the spirit of God is the Author of it, & man is but the instrument. The rest of your proofs taken from the use of the Church (as you say) be all ab authoritate negatiuè: and most of them ab authoritate hominum: which kind of argument yourself have before utterly condemned. I have oftentimes could you that an argument, à non facto, ad non ius (& it is M. Zuinglius and other men's judgement, as well as mine) is good neither in divine, nor yet in human things. So far as I can learn jonathan the Calday Paraphrast, flourished not in Christ's jonathan the Caldoro the paraphrast before Christ's time. time, (as you say) but. 42. years before Christ was born, and I think there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithful, in interpreting, but that they miss in some places: & you can not but acknowledge, that one good Sermon or Homily of some learned man's, well & plainly red to the people, may edify them more, than the reading of these Paraphrastes. And yet I suppose you know, that the jews have those Paraphrastes, as yet red in their Churches: wherefore hitherto if you have spoken any thing it is against yourself. But you say, that this practice continued still in the Churches of god, etc. and you prove it by justine Martyr, because he mentioneth nothing read in the church, but Monuments of the Prophets, and Ipostles. Concerning your proof, I have declared already of what force it is, being drawn ab authoritate humana negatiuè. Now that this practice continued not still in the Church, you shall easily perceive if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement read in the church. out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Bishop of Rome, where he writeth after this sort. And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clement written to the Corinthians, declaring that (according to the old custom) it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4▪ Cap. 2 . Church. For thus he saith: we have this day celebrated the holy day of the Lord, wherein we read your Epistle, which we will always read for admonition sake, in like sort as Dionysius lived about the year. 147. the former epistle written to us from Clement. The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius, think it not unlike that his Epistles were also read in the Church, because Eusebius calleth them Catholicas', Catholic. Their words be these: Non videtur prae ereundum, quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas' vocet: fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi, sicut Clementis. This thing would not be omitted, that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholic: peradventure, because they were wont to be read in the Churches of the faithful, as the Epistle of Clement was. And this may testify of the practice of the Church in justinus Martyrs time better than your negative Concil. vas. La. 4. argument. And of the practice since, the. 4. Can. Concil. Vasens. will give sufficient testimony, where it is decreed, that if the ministers be let by infirmity or sickness, the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church. of the fathers should be read of the Deacons. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 172. Sect. 3 But of reading Homilies in the Church I have some thing Bucers' opinion of ho lies in the church. spoken before, now it shall be sufficient only to set down Master Bucers' judgement of this matter in his notes upon the Communion book, which is this. It is better that where there lacks to expound the Scriptures unto the people, there should be Godly and learned Homilies red unto them, rather than they should have no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper. And a little after: There be too few Homilies, and to few points of Religion taught in them: when therefore the Lord shall bless this kingdom, with some excellent Preachers, let them be commanded to make more Homilies of the principal points of Religion, which may be red to the people, by those Pastors, that can not make better themselves. T. C. Pag. 158. Towards the end. And as for Master Bucers' authority, I have showed before how it aught to be weighed, and here also it is suspicious, for that it is said that his advise was, that when the Lord should bless the realm with more learned preachers, that then order should be taken to make more homilies, which should be red in the church unto the people. As if M. Bucer did not know. that there were then learned preachers enough in the realm, which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of them might easily have exceeded the volume of the Bible, if the multitude of Homilies, would have done so much good. And if the authority of Master Bucer bear so great a sway with Master Doctor, that upon his credit only, without either Scripture or reason, or examples of the Churches primitive, or those which are now, he dare thrust into the church Homilies, than the authorities of the most ancient and best counsels aught to have been considered, which have given charge, that nothing should be red in the church, but only the Canonical Scriptures. Io. Whitgifte. They are M. Bucers' words in deed, neither is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be. And it is not his judgement only, but other learned men's Ridleys' judgement of homilies in the church. also: and namely that famous man D. Ridlies, Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed. Wherein thus he speaketh of the Church of England, that was in King Edward's time. It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Fox. to. 2. Pag. 1940. principal virtues, which are commended in Scripture, and likewise other Homilies against the most pernicious and capital vices, that useth (alas) to reign in this Church of England. And truly these authorities if I had no other reason, prevail more with me than all that you, or any of your part had said, or is able to say to the contrary. Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the council of Laodicea, that nothing should be red in the church, but the Canonical books, of the old and new Testament, and reckoneth up what they be. afterward 59 Can. conc. Laodi. rom. 1. council. as corruptions grew in the church▪ it was permitted that homilies might be red by the Deacon, when the minister was sick, and could not preach, and it was also in an other Council of Carthage permitted, that the martyrs lives might be red in the church, but besides the evil success that those decrecs had (under preteuce whereof the Popish legend, and Gregory's Concil. vasense. 1. to. 4. tom. council. 6. c council. Colon. part. 2. homilies, etc. creptin) that use and custom was controlled by other counsels, as may appear by the council of Colen, albeit otherwise Popish. And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration, that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs lives into the church, and of the homilies of ancient writers, hath not only by this means justled with the Bible, but also thrust it clean out of the church, or into a corner where it was not red nor seen, it aught to teach all men to beware of placing any writing or work of men in the church of God, be they never so well learned, as long as the world should endure. Io. Whitgifte. It is certain that the decree of the Council of Laodicea, can no more condemn the reading of Homilies in the Church, than it may the reading of Prayers or Cathechismes, or any other interpretation of the Scriptures. The meaning of the Nothing aught to be read in the church under the name of Scriptures, but the canonical. Council is only, that nothing be red in the Church as Scripture, or under the name of Scripture, but that which is Canonical. And that doth evidently appear in the. 47. Canon of the third Council of Carthage, which doth explain this Canon. The words be these: Item placuit ut praeter Scripturas Canonicas, nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine divinarum scripturarum. It is thought good that nothing be red in the Church, under the name of the scriptures of God, but the Canonical Scriptures. It doth not therefore Con. Carth. 3. can. 47. inhibit interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded upon the same to be red. Concilium vasense (as it is before declared) appointeth Homilies Homilies appointed to be red. to be red, when there is no Sermon, by reason of some infirmity or sickness in the minister, which is a godly and profitable decree, neither could it be the cause of any corruption. I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Church which is not grounded Nothing aught to be red not grounded of the scriptures upon the word of God, therefore the decree of the Council of Carthage, or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defend: and yet I know not in what sort or out of what story these lives of Martyrs were red. I like very well of the decree of the council of Colen, for it inhibiteth the reading in the Church of fabulous, and barbarous stories of the lives of Saints, whereby it is like that the book called Legenda aurea is ment. But what is this against godly Homilies, that contain the true interpretation of the scriptures, godly exhortation to good life, & sound proofs of true doctrine, which is as far from justling the bible out of the church, or into corners, as is preaching. And I muse that you can allege this for a cause, seeing you think so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures, and will have the same give place to your sermons. Chap. 2. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1 And if any man (*) You have objected that which you cannot answer. object, that by this means also is shut out of the church the form of ordinary Prayers to be said: I say the case is nothing like, for when we pray, we can not use the words of the Scripture, as they orderly lie in the text. But for so much as the church prayeth for divers things necessary for it, the which are not contained in one or two places of the scripture, and that also there are some things which we have need of, whereof there is no express prayer in the scripture, it is needful that there be a form of prayer drawn forth out of the Scripture, which the church may use when it meeteth, as the occasion of the time doth require, which necessity can not be by no means alleged in the reading of Homilies or Apocrypha. Whereupon appeareth, that it is not so well ordained in the church of England, where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read, especially when as divers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted up so high, that they are sometime appointed for extraordinary lessons upon feasts days, wherein the greatest assemblies be made, and some of the chapters of the canonical Scripture, (as certain chapters of the Apocalyps) quite left out, and not red at all. Io. Whitgifte. You have made an objection which you can not answer, and against the which all these reasons that you have before used do as much prevail, as they do against reading of Homilies: and whatsoever you can say for the one, may likewise be said for the other. For when we interpret the Scriptures, when we teach, or exhort, we can not use only the words of the scripture, as they lie orderly in the text, but we must amplify them, displace them, apply them to the matter we speak of, entermingling them with our own words and phrases. For except you will grant this to be lawful, as well in exhorting and teaching, as in public preaching, you must (as I said before) as well condemn Sermons, as Homilies. The Apocrypha that we read in the Church, have been so used of long time, as Apocrypha red in timèpaste in the church. it may appear in that third council of Carthage, and 47. Canon, where they be reckoned among the Canonical books of the Scripture. They may as well be read in the Church, as counted portions of the old and new Testament: and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrary to the rest of the Scripture. I see no inconvenience, but much commodity that may come by the reading of them. ¶ Of the name (Priest) given to the ministers of the gospel. Chap. 3. The first Division. Admonition. We speak not of the name of Priest, wherewith he defaceth the minister of Christ, (because the Priest that translated it, would perhaps fame have the minister of Christ to be joined with him) seeing the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that ever was. To cai us therefore Priests as touching our office, is either to call back again the old priesthood of the law, which is to deny Christ to be comen, or else to keep a memory of the popish priesthood of abomination still amongst us. As for the first, it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9 11. christ abolished, and for the second it is of Antichrist, and therefore we have nothing to do with it. Such ought to have (e) Eze. 44. 10 jerem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church, neither are they ministers of Christ, sent to preach his Gospel, but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead, that is, to tread under their feet the blood of Christ. such aught not to have place amongst us, as the scriptures manifestly teach. Besides that we never read in the new Testament, that this word Priest, as touching office, is used in the good part. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 183. Sect. 2. The name of Priest need not to be so odious unto you, as you The name of priest. would seem to make it. I suppose it cometh of this word Presbyter, not of Sacerdos, and then the matter is not great. T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 2. Although it will be hard for you to prove, that this word (Priest) cometh of the Greek word (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) yet that is not the matter, but the case standeth in this, that for so much as the common and usual speech of England is, to note by the word (Priest) not a minister of the Gospel, but a sacrificer, which the minister of the Gospel is not, therefore, we aught not to call the ministers of the Gospel (priests) and that this is the english speech, it appeareth by all the english translations, which translate always (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) which were sacrificers (priests) and do not of the other side (for any that ever I read,) translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a priest. Seeing therefore a priest with us, & in our tongue, doth signify both by the Papists judgement in respect of their abhommable Mass, and also by the judgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts which were offered in the law, a sacrificing office, which the minister of the gospel neither doth, nor can execute, it is manifest, that it can not be without great offence so used. Io. Whitgifte. I am not greatly delightedwith the name, nor so desirous to maintain it, but yet a truth is to be defended: I read in the old fathers, that these two names Sacerdos and presbyter be confounded. I see also that the learned, and the best of our English writers, such I mean as writ in these our days, translate this word presbyter, so: and the very word itself, as it is used in our english tongue, soundeth the word presbyter. As heretofore use hath made it to be taken for a sacrificer, so will use now altar that signification, and make it to be taken for a minister of the Gospel. But it is mere vanity to contend for the name, when we agree of the thing: the name may be used and not used without any great offence. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 183. Sect. 3 & Pag. 184. Sect. 1. 2. The priest or priests that translated this book, be not so skornfully to be taunted: I think some of them have ended their lives in the fire, and all of them singular both in life, religion, & learning: speak not so contemptuously of so worthy men: utter not your haughty stomachs with so spiteful words towards your superiors & betters, lest you prove yourselves to be in the number of those, of whom S. Paul speaketh. 2. Tim. 3. vers. 2. 3. 4. 5. and judas in his epistle vers. 8. It is true that the priesthood of the old law is abolished but the place of scripture noted in your margin proveth it not. For Hebrues. 5. Paul doth show why the high priest was ordained, and what were his offices: but he speaketh nothing of the abolishing of the priesthood. I muse what you mean thus unnecessarily to paint your margin, and that with so little judgement, and less discretion. The. 9 to the Hebrues is something to the purpose, but needless. Touching Popish priests (as you call them) whether they aught to have any place in our church, or not, I have spoken before, where I have also answered your marginal notes concerning that matter. You far overshot yourself in mine opinion, when you set it down, that you never read in the new testament this word priest, touching office to be used in good part. What say you to the fourth to the Hebrues? verse. 14. Seeing then that we have a great high Priest, which is entered into heaven jesus Chryst. etc. And verse. 6. For we have not a high Priest which can not be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but. etc. And chapter. 5. verse. 6. Thou art a Priest for ever, etc. And Apocalyps. 5. 1. Pet. 2▪ But what should I trouble you with a tedious the whole new Testament, where this word Priest, is taken in evil part touching office. Truly you are far deceived, or else my Priest conce ning office, never in evil part. understanding faileth me. I condemn that office, and institution of sacrificing for the quick and the dead with you, and I know it is condemned in the Scriptures manifestly, and namely in the. 9 and. 10. to the Hebrues. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered. Matters concerning the solemnisation of Marriage. Chap. 4. The first Division. Admonition. The ninth. As for matrimony that also hath corruptions too many, it was wont to be counted a sacrament, and therefore they use yet a sacramental sign, to which they attribute the virtue of wedlock. I mean the wedding ring, which they foully abuse and dalli withal, in taking it up & laying it down: In putting it on▪ they abuse the name of the Trinity, they make the new married man according to the Popish form, to make an idol of his wife, saying, with this ring I thee Abuses accidental. wed, with my body I thee worship. etc. And because in popery no holy action, may be done without a Mass, they enjoin the married people to receive the communion, (as they do their Bishops and priests when they are made.) etc. Other petty things out of the book we speak not of, as that women, contrary (m) 1. Cor. II 5 to the rule of the Apostle, come, & are suffered to come bareheaded with bagpipes and fiddlers before them, to disturb the congregation, and that they must come in at the great door of the church, else all is marred. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 194. Saect. 1. The ring in matrimony. The first thing you mislike in matrimony is the ring, which you call a sacramental sign, and untruly say, that we attribute the virtue of wedlock thereunto: I know it is not material whether the ring be used or not, for it is not of the substance of matrimony: neither yet a sacramental sign, no more than sitting at Communion is, but only a Ceremony of the which M. Bucer (writing his judgement upon the first Bucers' opinion of 〈◊〉 ring in marriage. communion book set out in the time of king Edward) saith on this sort: Subijcitur alius ritus, ut amnulum. etc. There is an other rite and ceremony used that the bridegroom should lay upon the book the ring or any other sign or token of wedlock, be it gold or silver, which he will give to his wife, & from thence the minister taking it, doth deliver it to the bridegroom, & he delivereth the same to the bride with a prescript form of words contained in the book: this ceremony is very profitable, if the people be made to understand what is thereby signified: as that the ring & other things first laid upon the book▪ & afterward by the minister, given to the bridegroom to be delivered to the bride, do signify that we aught to offer all that we have to god before we use The fourth finger. them, & to acknowledge that we do receive them at his hand to be used to his glory. The putting of the ring upon the fourth finger of the woman's left hand, to the which as it is said, there cometh a sinew of string from the heart, doth signify that the heart of the wife ought to be united to her husband, & the roundness of the ring doth signify, that the wife aught to be joined to her husband with a perpetual band of love, as the ring itself is without end. Hitherto M. Bucer. T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. ult. If it be M. Bucers' judgement which is alleged here for the ring, I see that sometimes Homer sleepeth. For first of all I have showed that it is not lawful to institute new signs & sacraments, & then it is dangerous to do it, especially in this which confirmeth the false and popish opinion of a sacrament, as is alleged by the Admonition. And thirdly to make such fond allegories of the laying down of the money, of the roundness of the ring, and of the mystery of the fourth finger, is let me speak it with his good leave) very ridiculous and far unlike himself. And fourthly, that he I do not speak of the inconvenience that men are constrayn d with charges to bring their children oftentimes half a score miles for that (which if it were needful) might be as well done at home in their own parishes. The third is for that in the allegation of the second cause of the five ing of the confirmation, the book ayeth, that by the 〈◊〉 of hands, and Prayer, the children may receive strength and 〈◊〉 against all temp ations, where 〈◊〉 there is no promise that by the laying on of hands upon children, any such gift that be given, & it maynteineth Lom. lib. 4 diuis. 7. the popish distinction, that the spirit of God is give at baptism unto the remission of sins, & in confirmation unto strength, the which very word (strength) the book allegeth, and all this M. Doctor con uteth, by calling of the authors of the Admonition pcevishe and arrogant. Io. Whitgifte. If that be a sufficient reason to abolish it, because it hath been horribly abused, then what shall you retain either in the church, or in the common life of man. But Tract. 7. ca 5. t e. . diviss. etc. I have before in talking of apparel declared the vanity of this reason, and yet the confirmation that is now used was never abused by the Papists, for they had it not, neither any similitude of it, but only the name which can not contaminate the thing. It comes not from the Pope's decretal Epistles, except you will say, that these Epistles were connted authentical before Jerome's time: for he maketh mention of this confirmation, and alloweth of it, in his book adversus Luciferianos. I deny not jerom. advers. Luciferian s. (sayeth he) this to be the custom of the churches, that the Bishop at the in ocation of the holy spirit, go to say his hand upon those which have been baptized as far off in lesser cities, by priests and deacons. M. Bucer likewise writing upon the fourth to the Ephesians testifieth, that this confirmation Bucer. is for e ancient in the Church, & well liketh & alloweth the same. Wherefore except you will give too much authority to the Pope's decretal Epistles, you can not say, that the confirming of children after baptism, had the original in them. The first step of popery in this Confirmation, (as you say) is laying on of hands. etc. and yet you see by the testimony of Jerome and Bucer, that laying on of hands hath long before Jerome's time been used in confirming of children. Neither can you say, that it confirmeth the opinion of it, that it is a sacrament, more than imposition of hands doth confirm the opinion of ordaining ministers that it is also a Sacrament: for I think that you will not deny but that imposition of hands may be used in ordaining of ministers. You say, it is an untruth, that the confirming of children by the imposition of hands came from the Apostles: but you only say it, you prove it not. Show the first institution of it since the Apostles, & then you say something, else the words of the book will bear with them better credit, than yours can do. To your second point, the authors before named, do sufficiently answer in the places that I have before named. The words of Jerome be t ease. If you demand in Hiero advers. Lucifer. om. 2 this place, wherefore he that is baptized in the Church doth not receive the holy Ghost but by the imposition of the hands of the Bishop: seeing we all affirm that the holy Ghost is given in true baptism. Learn this observation to come from this authority, that after the ascension of our Lord, the holy Ghost came down upon the Apostles. And in many places we found the same thing to be done, rather for the honour of priesthood than necessity of the law For if the holy Ghost should come only at the prayer of the Bishop, those were to be lamented, which in prison, or in castles, or in far places being baptized by priests and Deacons die before the Bishop can visit them. The words of M. Bucer be these. The Bucer. in. 4. Ephes. sign of imposition of hands, bishops only did give, and that not without reason: for whether the covenant of the Lord is to be confirmed to those that are baptized, or whether they are to be reconciled that have grievously offended, or whether the ministers of the Church are to be ordained: all these ministries do best become those to whom the chief care of the Church is committed. Your objection of men's charges in bringing their children to be confirmed, is childish. It cannot be denied but that by hearty and earnest prayers God doth work these effects in those children that be his: and hereof imposition of hands is a sign. The ground of this is that promise whereupon all our prayers do depend, that is, that we shall obtain whatsoever we ask the father in Christ's name: neither can you more justly cavil in this respect, at the imposition of hands at the confirmation of children, than you can do at the same in the ordaining of ministers. The Authors of the Admonition seem to allow of confirmation, but not as it is now used, for the which, because they show no reason, it is a confutation most meet for them, to say that they be both arrogant and peevish. Of Burials and matters thereunto appertaining. Chap. 6. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 160. Sect. ult. Lest M. Doctor (as his common fashion is when the corruption of any thing is spoken against) Of Burial . say, that we condemn burial, I would have him understand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried, and that it is meet that for that cause some reasonable number of those which be the friends and neighbours about should accompany the corpse to the place of burial: we hold it also lawful to lament the dead, and if the dignity of the person so require, we think it not unlawful to use some way about the burial whereby that may appear, but yet so that there be a measure kept both in the weeping, & in the charges, considering that where as immoderate either weeping or pomp was never, not not in the time of the law allowed, now in the time of the gospel, all that is not lawful, which was permitted in the time of the law. For unto the people of God under the law, weeping was by so much more, permitted unto them, than unto us, by how much they had not so clear a revelation and plain sight of the resurrection as we have, which was the cause also why it was lawful for them to use more cost in the embaulming of the dead, thereby to nourish and to help their hope touching the resurrection, whereof we have a greater pledge by the resurrection of our saviour Christ than they had. Io. Whitgifte. All this is peerless: but that you are disposed to stretch out your volume. Chap. 6. the. 2. Division. Admonition. The eleventh. They appoint a prescrip kind of servi e to bury the dead: and that which is the duty of every christian, they tie alo e to the minister, whereby rayer for the dead is maintained, and partly gathered out of some of the prayers, where they pray that we with this our brother, and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul. We say nothing of the threefould peal, because that it is rather licenced by injunction, than commanded in the book, nor of their strange mourning, by changing their garments, which if it be not hypocraticall, yet it is superstitious and heatcrush, because it is used only of custom: nor of burial Sermons, which are put in pl ce of rentalls whereout spring many abuses, and therefore in the best reform Churches are removed. As for the superstitions used both in country and city, for the place of burial, which way they must lie, how they mu t be fecched to Church the Minister meeting them at Church st le with surplice, with a company of greedy Clerks, that a Cross white or black must be set upon the dead corpse, that bread must be given to the poor, and offerings in burial time used, and cakes sent abroad to friends, because these are rather used of custom and superstition than by the authority of the book. Small commandment will serve for the accomplishing of such things. But great charge will hardly bring the lest good thing to pass, and therefore all is let alone, and the people as blind and as ignorant, as ever they were. God be merciful unto us. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 198. Sect. 1 It is true that we have a prescript kind of service to bury the dead, and that we appoint that office to the minister, and what have you in the whole scripture, against this? or whoever hath found fault with either of these two things (I mean prescript service to bury the dead, and the minister to execute that office) but you alone? or when was it ever heretofore reproved by any, but even by yourselves now of late? T. C. Pag. 161. Lin. 5. Now for the things which the Admoni jon findeth fault with, and thereof ingeth reason, M. Doc ere of his bore crediten, without any reason or sc ipture, or 〈◊〉 thing else, 〈◊〉 them unto 〈◊〉, and saith they be good. And this you shall mark to be M. Doctors simple shift through out his ooke, that when he hath no colour of scripture, nor of reason, no name nor title of Doctor, then r make 〈◊〉 some thing▪ he varieth rieth his affirmation by all the figures he c n, as in saying 〈◊〉 that it is so and then in 〈◊〉 whether it be not so, and after in ask whether there 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 man will think that it is not so, if he would make us believe, that he setteth us divers 〈◊〉 of mea●es, because he bringeth the same in divers dishes. For besides these reasons, he hath no reason, either to pro e that it is meet to have prescript form of service for the dead, or that the 〈◊〉 should be drawn to this charge. Surely if the order be so good and convenien , it hath met with a very barren throne, which can say nothing for it. And although there be enough said by the Admonition, yet because this bold and hardy peach is enough to lead the simpler a y, and to make them think that M. Doctor hath a good cause, therefore I will also say so thing of these rites of burr all. Io. Whitgifte. What one reason is there used in the Admonition? what one word of scripture? what authoriti of writer? to improve a prescript kind of service to bury the dead, and the minister to execute that office. If there be any rehearse it: if there be none why do you keep your old cu ome of speaking untruly? for as much therefore as they only say The dead b r d by the minister and with pra ere in the 〈◊〉 Church. it without proof, without reason, without ground unde, the thing being known so be good and godly, and pra tised in the primitive Church (for we read in Tertullian, that the dead were wont to be buried by the ministers, and with prayer) and furthermore seeing it is established, and allowed by the Church, what should I labour by reason or authority to confirm that, which, cannot by any reason or authority be overthrown. Tertul. de Anima. Wheresore I will only answer such bore assertions, as M. Zuinglius answered An order received in the Church needeth no proof, until by reason it be overthrown. Zuinglius ad▪ Balt a. resp. (upon the like occasion) one Balthasar an Anabaptist. Whilst you require scripture and reason, you obtrude unto other that which you ought to perform yourselves, for you deny that this aught to be so, show therefore some express testimony out of the scripture, to confirm your opinion. To this effect spea eth Zuinglius to Balthasar, who (without reason or scripture, alleged to the contrary) required of Zuinglius the proof of those things which without control enter of any (but Heretics) had continued in the Church of long time, and then also allowed in the time of the Gospel: Even so the received order established by this Church, carrieth with it authority and credit sufficient, and needeth not to be further by reason confirmed, except it be first by reason overthrown, which because it is not per ourmed by the Admonition, my affirmation is sufficient reason, against their denial. If this be M. Doctors simple shift throughout his book, I trust M. Doctor that would have been, hath not omitted to note it, where he may find it, seeing his eye sight is so sharp, that he can imagine himself to espy it, where no man else can found it. But let words go. Chap. 6. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 2. You say that thereby prayer for the dead is maintained, as may partly be gathered out of some of the prayers, where we pray that we with this our brother, and other departed in the true faith of thy holy name▪ etc. You know full well what out doctrine Prayer for the dead not, maintained. is concerning prayer for the dead, and you aught not thus boldly to utter a manifest untruth, for in so doing you do but be wray your sinister affection How prove you that a prescript form of service for burying the dead, and the minister only to bury them, doth maintain prayer for the dead▪ when you have showed your reason, you shall hea e my answer. In saying that these words gathered out of some of the prayers, Pag. 199. 〈◊〉 1. 2. 3. that we with this our brother. etc. import prayer for the dead, you do but quarrel: E position of a prayer at Burial. when we say that we with Abraham, Isaac and jacob may reign in thy kingdom, do we pray for Abraham, Isaac, and jacob, or ather wish ourselves to be where they are? In the like manner when we say, that we with this our brother, and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name, may have our perfect consummation, & bliss both in body and soul, we pray not for our brother, and other that be departed in the true faith, but we pray for ourselves, that we may have our perfect consummation and bliss, as we are sure those shall have which die in the true faith. Now weigh this reason, there is a prescript form of burying the dead, and it is madea portion of the ministers office, their fore you will not subscribe to the communion book. T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 1 And first oh all as this almost is a general fault in them all, that they maintain in the minds of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead: so is this also another general fault, that these ceremonies are taken up without any example either of the churches under the law, or of the purest churches under the Gospel, that is of the churches in the Apostles times. For when the Scripture describeth the ceremonies or rites of burial amongst the people of God so diligently, that it maketh mention of the smallest things, there is no doubt but the holy Ghost doth thereby show us a pattern, whereunto we should also frame our burials. And therefore for so much as neither the Church under the law nor under the Gospel, when it was in the greatest purity, did ever use any prescript form of service in the burial of their dead, it could not be but dangerous, to take up any such custom, and in the time of the law it was not only not used, but utterly for for bidden: levit. 21. for when the law did forbidden that the priest should not be at the burial, which aught to say or conceive the prayers there, it is clear that the jews might n t have any such prescript form, and yet they had most need of it, for the causes of obscure knowledge, and weaker faith before alleged. Again by this means a new charge is laid upon the minister, and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding & governing the flock, which being so great as a marvelous dilig nce will scarcely overcome, aught not to be made greater by this, being a thing so unnecessary. The Admonition doth not say that the prayers which are said are for the dead, but that they maintain an opinion of prayer for the dead in the hearts of the simple, and that they declare mamanifestly enough, when they say that it may be partly gathered. etc. Io. Whitgifte. Your first reason to prove that there aught to be no prescript form of service to bury the The prescript form of service maintaineth not pr year for the day but 〈◊〉 dead, and that the minister aught n t to execute that office, is this: It maintaineth in the minds of the ignorant, an opinion of praying for the dead, therefore there aught to be no prescript form of service to bury the dead, neither must the minister execute that office. Undoubtedly this is a very ignorant argument, if a man deny your antecedent, how will you prove it? do you think the people (whom you do so greatly in other places extol) to be so rude, that they understand not the English tongue? Are they not able to discern what it is to pray for the dead? Surely I do not think any to be so simple, that hearing the manner and form of burying our dead, can or will imagine that we pray for the dead. And I verily believe that the ignorantest person in a whole country, will deride the babishnesse of the argument. The prescript form that is now used and the minister pronouncing the same, widow ather persuade them to the contrary, for where as in times past, the minister used to say mass and dirige for the souls of the dead, and sundry times move standers by to pray for the dead, at the time of burial: now doth he read most wholesome scriptures, declaring the misery of the life of man, the shortness of his days, the happiness of those that die in the Lord, and the certainty of the resurrection. And who can hereof gather any prayer for the dead? Your second reason is this, these ceremonies (that is a prescript form of burying the dead. etc) are taken up without any example either of the Churches under the law, or of the churches in the Apostles time. etc. therefore there may be no prescript form of service for burying the dead, and the minister may not make it a piece of his office to bury them. I deny this argument: for it is negative from authority, because you have neither warrant to say that there was no such order in the Apostles time, neither if you had any such warrant, doth it follow that it may not be so in our time, seeing that in ceremonies and divers other orders and external things, we are not bound to the form and manner of the Apostolical Church. And yet if I should say that in the Apostles time, the minister used to bury the dead, and ground my reason upon the place of S. Augustine before alleged, quod universa tenet ecclesia. etc. I know not what you would be able by any reason to say to the contrary. Another argument you conclude thus: It was forbidden in the law that the priest should be at the burial of the dead, therefore the jews had no such prescript form. Be The replier had rather conform himself to the jews than oh this church it so: but will you drive us to conform ourselves to the jews ceremonies? do you think that touching the dead, or being at burials will now make the minister unclean? I understand not to what end you should allege any such proofs, unless you would have us to return again to judaisme. This kind of reasoning from the ceremonial law is not only of no force, but also very dangerous, as though Christians were bond to behave themselves according to that law. Surely it should seem that you could rather consent to the bringing in of judaisme, than to the Christian orders now appointed in the Church. There might be and so there was a prescript form of burying the dead among the jews, although the Priest was absent: therefore, if this kind of reasoning from the examples of the jews were of any force, yet cannot this your argument prove that there aught to be no prescript form to bury the dead. In the fourth place you reason thus: A new charge may not belayed upon the minister, nor The duty of ministers not hindered by burying the dead. he may not be taken from his necessary duties of feeding and governing his flock. etc. but by burying the dead, a new charge is laid upon him, and he is taken from his necessary duties. etc. therefore the minister may not bury the dead. Your Minor is false, for it is no new charge, laid upon him: is it not his duty to read the scriptures, to give thanks, to pray and to exhort in the public congregation? doth he not feed, when he so doth? nay when is there a more apt time of feeding? will you give him time to be Pa. 49. Se. ult absent from his flock upon his own business, as before you have done, and shall he have no time to bury their dead? Surely I cannot conceive how this function of burying the dead, should one jot hinder the minister f on any one part of his duty. And I think these reasons of yours too weak to allure any man into your opinion, or to pluck down any thing that is already builded. If you seek for alteration, you must use pro ound and invincible proofs, for no wise man will be moved to a change, without urgent and especial cause. I pass over this and such like matters the more lightly, because I take the lightness of your arguments to be such, as of themselves they be a sufficient discredit to your cause, and add (with such a be learned, and not led by affection) a greater strength and confirmation both to the doctrine, and also to the government of this Church of England. Chap. 6. the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 199. Sect. 4. The threefold peal, mourning apparel, burial sermons, the place of burial, which way they must lie, how they must be fetched to the Church, a cross white or black set upon the dead corpse, bread given to the poor, offerings in burial time used, cakes sent abroad to friends, you confess not to be contained within the book, and so you ease me of some labour. But yet of mourning apparel, and auriall Of mourning pparell. sermons, give me leave to speak a little. It is no good reason to say, that because mourning apparel is only used of custom, therefore it is superstitious and heathenish: many things be used of custom which be neither superstitious nor heathenish, as to receive the communion before dinner, to celebrated the Lords day on the Sunday, not on the Saturday, to preach in pulpits, and such like. Mourning Mourning apparel ancient. apparel is of great antiquity (as you know) and I think it is no matter of religion, but of civility and order. If any man put religion in it, than no doubt it is superstitious. T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 2. For the mourning apparel, the Admonition (*) Untruth, 〈◊〉 their word be plain. saith not simply it is evil, because it is done of custom, but proveth that it is hypocritical oftentimes, for that it proceedeth not from any sadness of mind, which it doth pretend, but worn only of ustome there being under a mourning gown, oftentimes a merry heart. And considering that where there is sorrow indeed for the dead, there it is very hard for a man to keep a measure, that he do not lament too much: we aught not to use these means whereby we might be further provoked to sorrow, and so go a great way beyond the measure, which the Apostle appointeth in mourning, no more than it was well done of the jews in the Gospel to provoke weeping and sorrow for their dead, by some doleful noise, or 1. Thes. 4. Math. 9 john. 11. sound of instrument, or then it was lawful for Mary Lazarus sister, to go to her brother's grave, thereby to set the pri t of her sorrow deeper in her mind. Seeing therefore if there be no sorrow it is hypocritical to pretend it, and i there be▪ it is very dangerous to provoke it, or to carry the notes of remembrance of it, it appeareth that this use of mourning apparel were much better laid away than kept. And here M. Doctor th' eapes a little kindness of the authors of the Admonition, and Cyp. 4. sermon de mortalitate Augus. li. 2. de consolat. mortuorum says that they know it is very ancient, whom before he denieth to have any knowledge of antiquity. Indeed it is very ancient, but M. Doctor is afraid to show the a ciencie of it, for Cyprian, and Augustine, inveigh unhemently against it, condemning it as unlawful and undecent. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the Admonition be these. Nor of their strange mourning by changing their garments (which if it be not hypocritical) yet is it superstitious and heathenish, because it is used only of custom. Let the Reader now judge, whether the Admonition doth conclude this apparel to be heathenish and superstitious, only because it is used of custom or no. Truly in my simple judgement their words be plainer, than that they can be excused. Your reason of Hypocrisy is no more sufficient, to condemn mourning apparel, than it is to condemn any other civil and decent oh der. By the like reason I might improve your wearing of a turkey gown and a hat, because that kind of apparel being a token of such people, as mislike the gown and the square cap, and pretend preciseness above the rest, is notwithstanding commonly worn of such as in other places than in London, both wear and like the other, and be precise neither in life nor doctrine. And what is it that I annot disprove, if this be a sufficient argument to say some men do abuse it, or some men do hypocritically use it, Ergo it is not to be used. Your other reason, that it provoketh more service for the dead than is convenient, if it were true that it so did (as you are not able to prove that it is) yet must it receive the same answer, with the former argument, being of the same nature: unless you will say, that we must not come near unto our riendes grave, or place where he is buried, we must not wear any of his apparel, come in or near the place where he died, behold any thing that may put us in mind of him, with an infinite such like things, because all these move affections in a kind heart, and provoke it to weeping. But i is the affection of the mind that is to be moderated and bridled, and not the lawful use of decent and civil orders to be condemnad▪ For if we admit such causes and excuses, I see not how any orders, either ecclesiastical or cy ill, especially in indifferent things, can be maintained. If any man wear such apparel There is both a lawful and an unl w full use of mour ing apparel. of purpose to provoke sorrow, he is not to be excused: if for order and civility, he is to be commended. And surely I see not why the wearing of mourning apparel should not be profitable to put a man in mind of his own mortality, seeing it carrieth a remembrance of death with it, and I think it rather worketh this effect in the wearer, than the other that you speak of. The antiquity of this apparel appeareth in this, that (by your own confession) it was in Cyprians time, as it appeareth in that 4. ser. demortalitate, where he doth not so much speak against the mourning apparel, as he doth against mourning immoderately: and surely if the thing had been so greatly to be misliked, it should not still have had continuance in the Church as it had, for Augustine likewise speaketh of it serm. 2. de consolat. mort. to the same effect that Cyprian doth. But there is no such immoderate mourning for the dead in these days, the contrary rather appeareth. Chap. 6. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 200. Sect. 1. 2. But wherein have funeral sermons offended you? or with what Funeral sermons. face of brass dare you liken them to trentals? what similitude is there betwixt a godly sermon and the wicked Mass? In what one Sermons most niece sary at 〈◊〉. point are they like? or how dare you condemn such sermons, being then most necessary and most profitable? what? is there a more fit time to entreat of the mortality of man, and shortness of his days, of the vanity of this world, of the uncertainty of iches, of the resurrection, of the judgement to come, of eternal life, and of everlasting death, and of infinite other most necessary points, than that wherein we have a present example before our eyes? when is there a more meet time to beat down trentals, sacrificing for the dead, prayers for the dead, Purga orie, and such like, than that wherein they were accustomed to be most used? So ely there is as much difference Sermons wickedly compared to trentals. betwixt our funeral sermons, and the papistical masses and trentals, as there is betwixt cold and hot, black and white, light and darkness, truth, and lies, Heaven and Hell. But belike there is some other private cause, that maketh you to reject funeral sermons. You say that in the best reformed churches they are removed: I Funeral sermons allowed of M. Caluine. think you say not truly (and I am sure that M. Caluine doth very well like and allow of them, as appeareth in the form of common prayers used of the English Church in Geneva, & by him allowed.) But if it be so, I tell you plainly, for my part I like not that reformation, except there be weightier reasons than either you use, or I can perceive. I am sure that in ancient churches of long time they have been used, and the same you may see in the most ancient and best learned fathers. T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 1 Now touching the funeral sermons, M. Doctor taketh on, and triumpheth marvelously, as though he had already got the victory, but he that girdeth his harness, should not boast as he that putteth it of. There is more matter, than peradventure M. Doctor is ware of, and that which is set down he answereth not, as that it nourisheth an opinion that the dead are the better for it, which doth appear in that there are none more desirous of funeral sermons than the Papists, which although they cannot abide the doctrine which is preached, yet they will have such sermons, and those which will very seldom, or not at all, be at other sermons, will not commonly miss one of these. Furthermore for so much as the minister is driven oftentimes by this means to preach upon a sudden, the word of God thereby is negligently handled, especially of those whose gifts are not so 'gree t, as that they can provide in so sma l time, and by this negligent handling of the word of God, it is brought into contempt. Io. Whitgifte. Surely M. Doctor may well triumph, that so good a cause hath no stronger adversaries. Funeral sermons nourish not an opinion that the dead are the better for them. Your arguments are too too slender, and in deed very frivolous: The first is this, that they nourish an opinion that the dead are better for them, of the which argument, because you are ashamed yourself, you father it upon the Admonition, wherein there is not one word spoken of any such reason. But why doth a funeral sermon nourish that opinion? forsooth, because the Papists be most desirous of them. First, it is very strange to say that sermons nourish an opinion that the dead are the better for them, when it is well known that both he that preacheth, thinketh otherwise, & the end of preaching is to root out of men's hearts such persuasions, which kind of sermons be most meet at that time to be used, when such especial occasions be offered. Secondly, it is as strange to think that Papists should for any such cause desire them, who are persuaded the doctrine that is taught to be flat heresy, and the preacher to be none of the church: and surely it is a strange fancy that can imagine a Papist to think that sermon to help the dead, which condemneth prayer for the dead, Purgatory, Masses, Diriges, Merits, and such like Popish trash, wherein the Papists place all their hope of help for the dead. Wherefore if Papists be so desirous of these sermons (which I can not believe) and in many of them it is indeed untrue, it is rather to avoid the suspicion of Papistry, than to procure any help to the dead. The second argument you will have this, The minister is driven by this means to T. C. forgetteth himself. preach of a sudden, and thereby the word of God is negligently handled. etc. and is this so good a reason? Do you remember what you answered before, for the defence of preaching twice in a day? you said it was a very simple Sermon that had not some goodness Page. 123. Sect. 1 and edifying, and very slender meat, which is not better being given every day, than the best and deyntyest meat once only in a month. etc. And how can he be taken so unprovided, that is able to preach so often? or why should the word of God be more negligently handled by a minister preaching a funeral sermon upon sudden warning, than by the same minister preaching two sermons every day? your memory waxeth feeble towards the end of your book, else would you not have so reasoned against yourself. But why may not he that preacheth a funeral sermon have sufficient warning? or if he have not, why may he not refuse to preach it? There is no order or law that doth of necessity bind him unto it. Chap. 6. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Moreover, considering that these funeral sermons are at the request of rich men, and those which are in authority, and are very seldom at the burial of the poor, there is brought into the church (contrary to the word of God) an acceptation of persons, which aught not to be. For although the minister may give to one more honour than to an other, according as the calling or degree requireth, yet in his ministery, and that which perteyveth unto his office, he aught to show himself indifferent, and therefore preach as well at the death of the poor, as of the rich, and because he cannot well do both, it is most convenient to leave both. Io. Whitgifte. This is your third reason, but it toucheth only the person, and not the cause, for it reproveth the minister for not preaching as well at the burial of the poor as of the rich: which if it be a fault it is the fault of the man, not of the thing: and therefore no good reason to condemn funeral sermons. But you say, he can not do both, and therefore it is most convenient that he leave both: shall he at no time do good, because he can not do it at all times? because he is not able to preach every day, shall he not therefore preach once in the week? or if he be not able to preach once in the week, shall he not therefore (being able) preach once in a fortnight? what kind of reasoning call you this? And yet if your reason for preaching twice a day before mentioned, be good and allowable, I know not why the minister may not be able to preach at the burial, as well of the poor as of the rich, and yet there may be sometimes more occasion, to preach at the burial of the rich, than at the burial of the poor: neither is this that acceptation of people, which is in scripture prohibited: for there be degrees of people and several dignities. Howbeit, funeral sermons be rather in the respect of the living than of the dead. Chap. 6. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. If so be that M. Doctor will say, that it is good that notable and famous men, should have their commendation, to the end that both the goodness of God towards them, might be the better known, and others the sooner drawn to follow their example, I grant it is so, and the scripture doth both approve it, and showeth what mean is best to do that by. For so we read that jeremy 2. Chro. 35. 2. sam. 1. and. 3. the Prophet commended that godly and zealous Prince josias in writing verses of his death. He could have as easily preached, but this he thought the best way. So did also David write verses at the death of Saul, and jonathan, and Abner, in which he commends their gifts and graces which the Lord had bestowed upon them. There were in deed of ancient time funeral orations, as appeareth in Gregory Nazianzene, but they savoured of the manner of Athens, where he was brought by: where also this custom of funeral orations was used, as may be seen in the second book of Thucydides story by an oration of Pericles. And although this custom was not in Nazianzens' time so corrupt as afterwards: yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches, gave occasion of further corruption which ensued. And to say the truth, it was better used amongst the Athenians, than amongst the Christians. For there it was merely civil, and the oration at the death of some notable parsonage, made not by a minister, but by an orator appointed therefore: which I think may well be done. Io. Whitgifte. jeremy lamented josias death, and writ verses upon it, David also writ verses at the death of Saul, there were funeral orations in Nazianzens' time, and it is lawful to have orations at the death of noble personages. etc. therefore there may be no funeral sermons: this argument hath neither necessary nor probable conclusion, for they may both be used, and be so commonly at the burial of notable personages. M. Fox reporting the use of the The order of the Primitive church in funerals. Primitive church in this matter, saith thus. In funerals priests than flocked not together, selling Trentals, and Diriges, for sweping of purgatory, but only a funeral contion was used, with Psalms of praises and songs of their worthy deeds: and alleluia sounding M. Fox par. 1 Pag. 146. on high, which did shake the golden ceilings of the temple, as witnesseth Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Jerome. etc. Chap. 6. the. 8. Division. T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. And if M. Doctor will say that there might be sermons although they be not mentioned neither in the old Testament nor in the new, I have answered before, that seeing the holy Ghost doth describe so diligently the lest circumstances of burial, he would not have omitted that being the greatest. And let it be observed, that this devise of man's brain, bringeth forth the same fruit that other do, that is, driveth quite away a necessary duty of the minister, which is to comfort with the word of God, the parties which be grieved at the death of their friends, that considering the sore is particular, he apply unto it a particular plaster, which is very seldom or never done, and yet a necessary duty, as of a good Christian, so especially of the minister, which can best do it, and to whom it most appertaineth. Io. Whitgifte. Not, I say not only that, which you do not sufficiently improve, but this also, that if there were none such then, yet may there be now, being a matter pertaining to edifying, and to the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. And you can no more prove by this argument, that there aught to be no funeral sermons, than you can prove that there aught to be no women at the receiving of the communion, or no baptism mininistred in churches, with divers such like things, whereof there is no express mention that they were in the Apostles time. An other of your weighty arguments is this. The minister aught to comfort with the word of God, the parties that be grieved at the death of their friends, therefore he may not preach a funeral sermon. I must still deny your argument, being to too simple. For may he not do both if need require? may he not before his sermon, in his sermon, & after his sermon Funeral sermons serve to comfort e those that are grieved. comfort the parties grieved? That is one good use of funeral sermons, especially when there are a number so grieved, whom he can not so well particularly comfort, because of the number, as he may jointly, in a godly & fruitful sermon: and I have not herded or read, but that God worketh as effectually in the hearts of the hearers, by public sermons, as he doth by private exhortations, & that even in matters of salvation, & therefore much more in matters of lesser importance. But as I said before, this preaching at the burial, doth nothing hinder this private exhortation, if he be so disposed: and therefore of all other your arguments, this is one of the worst. Chap. 6. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. And where as M. Doctor asketh, when there is a better time to speak of death and of mortality, than at urial, surely if it had been so sit, the Prophets and Apostles would never have lost that opportunity, or let pass that occasion of advancing and making effectual their preaching. What if it be answered (*) It were very ondly answer. that for as much as our life, is a continual meditation of death, it is not sal e to use this custom, or that it tieth our cogitation to so short a time, as the tune of burial is, which aught to be extended to the whole course of our life. But I answer that it may be well done without any such funeral sermons, when the minister taketh occasion of the death of any which is lately departed, to speak of the vanity of the life of man. Io. Whitgifte. The Prophets and Apostles did not preach at burials, therefore it is not a most convenient time to speak of death and of mortality. The antecedent is doubtful, and not proved, and though it were true, the argument followeth not, for it is your usual kind of reasoning negatively of authority. But why have you not made here any mention of the other things contained in my Answer to the Admonition, which be necessary points to be entreated of, and most fit for that tune: as purgatory, rentals. & c? Again you reason thus: our life is a continual meditation of death, and by funeral sermons An absurd argum t against funeral sermons. it is tied unto a short time as the tune of burial is, therefore funeral sermons be not lawful: the putting of us in mind of our mortality by funeral sermen, is no hindrance to our continual meditation of it, but an help rather and a means to stir it up & to revive it. We aught at all times to meditate of the death of Christ, but must we therefore refuse at some times to receive the sacrament of the supper, whereby we are put in mind thereof? or doth the receiving of this sacrament once in a month, restrain our meditation of Christ's death to that time only? doth a sermon preached of the death of Christ, at some times appointed, bind our cogitation to that time only? surely then are we very unprofitable hearers. Wherefore although our life be a con invall meditation of death, yet can it not be but most profitable for us, to be put in mind thereof at some one time, more than at other some time, & especially at that time when we see with our eyes that which we hear with our ears. And what can this reason more prevail against sermons at burials, than it may do against sermons at the administration of the Sacraments, or any other appointed or set time? The like or the same kind of argument you used before against the feast of Easter, 〈◊〉. 120. 〈◊〉. 2 and other such like days, where I have in like manner answered the same. I think verily that by this time you are ashamed of it. At the length you say that it may be well done, without any such funeral sermons, etc. and therefore there may be no funeral sermons. And I say it may as well and better be done in and by funeral sermons, and therefore funeral sermons may be, etc. Chap. 6. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 162. towards the end. Whether M. Doctor liketh the reformation or no; so it is in the church where M. Calu ne w astor, and ha' be e for these many years. And although the english church in Geneva had that in the book of common prayer, yet (as I have herded of those which were there present) it was no so used. And if it had been, yet thereby it is not proved that M. Caluine allowed of it. For with things wherein there was no great and manifest disorder, M. Caluine did bear that which he liked t of. And there being no Papists in all the city, and all being well instructed, there was no such unger in a funeral sermon there, as is here amongst us, where there be many Papists and mother ignorant. I w ll say nothing of the great abuse of those which having otherwise to live on of the church, take nobles for every such sermon, and sometime a mourning gown, which causeth th' 〈◊〉 to open their mouths wide, and to say that the merchandise of sermons is much bear than of the 〈◊〉, for that they might have for a groa e or six pennies, and the sermon they can not have under a rou der sum. Io. Whitgifte. I have told you before how much M. Calvin himself misliketh this ambitious Tract. 9 cap. Divi. 13. morosity, which would drive all churches to the example of one. It first brought Rome to that extreme pride & arrogancy, wherewith it is now so greatly puffed up. I must believe that book that is printed published and uncontrolled, before I believe your uncertain reports, although in such matters I do not depend upon the church of Geneva, which will not I am sure condemn our use in these sermons, though it use them not itself. I hear as yet no probable reason why funeral sermons should not be where there Funer ll sermons do most good where there are most Papists. are Papists, and such as be ignorant. I am fully persuaded that they be in those places most necessary, where there are most Papists, because they minister especial occasion to confute these errors, wherein the Papists be most blinded, & from the which they are with most difficulty drawn. But we must permit unto you your paradoxes, and your fancies, else all is marred. You say you will not speak of the abuse of those that take nobles for such Sermons, having otherwise to live, neither will I defend them if they either exact it, or require it, or take it with offence. Yet if it be given unto them by the will of the dead, or for the bet oer solemnizing of the burials of such as be noble or worshipful, I see no cause why it should be unlawful for them, to take that which by such means is given unto them: otherwise I think it not meet for preachers to make a common or usual gain of it. Chap. 6. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 163. Lin. 5. That must be remembered (which I had almost forgotten) how untruly and slaundero sly M. doctor saith that the authors of the Admonition do compare the sermon with a trental or a mass. For when I say in stead of the mass we have the holy Communion: do (*) Yea so ely if you peak to disc edite it. I compare or liken the communion to the mass? and yet this is M. doctors charitable collection, which gathereth things which no man letteth all. Io. Whitgifte. If with that mind and sense you say, the holy Communion is in stead of the Mass, that they say, burial Sermons are put in the place of trentals, you say wickedly and ungodly: for they speak it in the evil part, to the depraving of those sermons: therefore I slander them not, but they slanderously speak of the preaching of the word of God. And for my upright dealing with them in this point, I refuse not the judgement, of any man that hath judgement. Chap. 6. the. 12. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Page 201. Sect. 1 Touching the place of burial, I muse what you mean to mislike The place of Burial. of it, seeing there hath always been an appointed place for the same, even from Abraham to this day. T. C. Page 163. Lin. 10. Touching the place of burial, I have spoken before. And although it be not to be misliked, that there should be a common place to bury in yet the places which M. doctor pointeth us unto, prove the clean contrary. For by the story oh Abraham's place of burial, it appeareth that the manner was that every one was buried in his own several ground, as may appear also by that, that the evangelist Math. 27. sai h, that there was a field bought to bury the strangers in, which had no place of their own, which was also used sometimes in the churches under the Gospel, as appeareth by the story of Theodoret, which I have before recited, and in the latter end of a funeral oration, which Gregory Naz anzene made of the death of his brother Cesarius. And so by this reason M. Doctor would have every one buried in his own possession. Io. Whitgifte. There have been placens always appointed to bury the dead in, dedicated to that use only, and therefore there may be so now, neither have you one word in any approved writer to the contrary. The convenience of the place, & the pointing of it out, is in the power of those that have authority, and be governors of the common wealth and church, and with that place that by them is thought most convenient we aught to be contented. Neither do I hear any reason to prove that there aught to be any alteration of the places already appointed. Whatsoever you have spoken to the contrary in the other place, I have there Tract. 5. cap. 2 Diuis. 7. answered. ¶ Other particular matters for the which they refuse to subscribe to the book. Chap. 7. The. 1. Division. Admonition. The ifft. As for the half Communi n, which is yet appointed like to the commemoration Half comm nion. of the Mass, we say little of it, saving that we may note how near the translator bound himself to the mass-book, that would not omit it. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 183 Sect. 1. I know not what you mean by the half communion, I find no such word in the Communion book: If you mean the communion in one kind, you speak untruly and slanderously of the book, and of this whole church: if you mean the scriptures and prayers appointed to be read when there is no Communion, then do you unjustly liken them to the commemoration of the Mass, being most fruitful scriptures, and godly prayers. Admonition. The eight. The public baptism, that also is full of childysh and superstitious toys. First in their prayer they say, that God by the baptism of his son jesus Christ, did sanctify the flood jordane, and all other waters, to the mystical washing away of sin, attributing that to the sign which is ( i 1. john. 1. 7. Acts. 20. 28 Rom. 3. 24. ) proper to the work of God in the blood of Christ, as though virtue were in water to wash away sins. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 189. Sect. 6. 7. 8. By the first you say, that we attribute to the sign that which is proper to the work of God in the blood of Christ, as though virtue were in water to wash away sin. You know very well that we teach far otherwise, and that it is a certain and true doctrine of all such as profess the Gospel, that the outward signs of the Sacrament, do not contain in them Outward sacraments do not give grace grace, neither yet that the grace of God is of necessity tied unto them, but only that they be seals of God's promises, notes of Christianity, testimonies and effectual signs of the grace of God, and of our redemption in Christ jesus, by the which the spirit of God doth invisibly work in us, not only the increase of faith, but confirmation also. You understand likewise, that this difference there is betwixt these external elements, being selected to be sacramental signs, Sacramental signs. (that is, betwixt water in baptism, & common water: bread & wine in the Eucharist, & usual bread & wine) that these now be sacraments sanctified to an other use, to a spiritual use, to the nourishing of faith, and feeding of the soul, to be instruments of the holy Ghost, by the which as by instruments we be fed to eternal life. Furthermore, you can not be ignorant, that whosoever contemneth these external signs, and refuseth them, can not be a member of Christ, neither yet saved. Last of all you have learned, that there is such a similitude betwixt Pag. 190. Sect. 1. 2. the signs, and the thing signified, that they are not only in Scripture usually called by the names of those things where of they be Sacraments (as bread the body of Christ, and water regeneration) but also that the contumely or contempt done to the one, doth redound to the other, that is, the contempt of the signs, is the contempt of the things signified, and therefore S. Paul says. 1. Cor. 11. He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh his own damnation, Non dijudicans corpus domini. And Christ, john. 3. Except a man be born of water and the spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of heaven. These things being considered, it is no superstitious toy, but a godly and true saying, that Christ hath sanctified all waters (used in Baptysing) to the mystical washing away of sin: not ascrybing, or attributing washing away of sin to the external element, any otherwise, than instrumentally, or in any other respect than for the similitude that Sacraments have with the things whereof they be Sacraments: for we know that wicked men may receive these external signs, and yet remain the members of Satan. It is certainly true, that the mystical washing away of sin is proper to the work God in the blood of Christ, and for that purpose you might have alleged much more plainer and director places of Scripture, than most of these which you have noted in your margin: but I think your meaning is not therefore to condemn the outward signs and Sacraments, as the heretics called Messalians, did. Admonition. They pray that all men may be saved. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 202. Sect. 3 You say we pray that all men may be saved, we do so indeed, and what can Prayer that all men may be saved 〈◊〉 good. you allege why we should not so do? S. Paul. 1. Tim. 2. saith, I exhort therefore, that first of all supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men. etc. And adding the reason he saith, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will that all men shall be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. The Apostle doth here will us in plain words to pray for all men, even that they may be saved, for there unto tend the words following. Io. Whitgifte. To this is nothing answered. Chap. 7. the. 2. Division. Admonition. The thirteenth. In all their order of Service ( p 1. Co. 14. 16 ) there is no edification according to the rule of the Apostle, but confusion. They toss the Psalms in most places like tennese balls, the people some standing, some walking, some talking, some reading, some praying by themselves, attend not to the Minister. He again posteth it over as fast as he can gallop: for either he hath two places to serve, or else there are some (*) Games of Sodom. games to be played in the after noon, as lying for the whetstone, heathenish dancing for the ring, a Bear or a Bull to be baited or else jacke an apes to ride on horseback, or an Interlude to be played, and if no place else can be got, it must be done in the Church. etc. Now the people sit, now they stand up: when the old Testament is read, or the lessons, they make no reverence, but when the Gospel cometh, than they (*) Standing at the Gospel came from Anastatius the Pope in An. 404. all stand up. For why, they think that to be of greatest authority, and are ignorant that the Scriptures came from one spirit. When jesus is named, then off goeth the cap, and down goeth the knees, with such a scraping on the ground, that they cannot hear a good while after, so that the word is hindered, but when any other names of God are mentioned, they make no courtesy at all, as though the names of God were not equal, or as though all reverence aught to be given to the syllables. We speak not of ringing, when Matins is done, and (*) Accidental abuses. other abuses incident: because we shall be answered, that by the book they are not maintained, only we desire to have a book to reform it. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 204. Sect. 1 &. 205. Sect. 1. 2. This is a slanderous untruth. And the. 1. Cor. 14. abused to A slander of the Communion book. confirm it. Whatsoever S. Paul requireth in that place, is used in that book of Service: for first the whole Service is in a tongue known (as S. Paul there requireth) that the people may understand & say Amen. Then are the Scriptures read▪ the Sacraments ministered according to Christ's own institution, those that be Godly disposed people know what a manifest untruth this is that you here utter. But mad men, women and children, must have their words. etc. If by tossing of Psalms, you mean the singing of them, alternatìm, then do you disallow that which is both commendable, and of great antiquity, as it appeareth in an Epistle that Basilius Magnus, did write to the Ministers in Neocaesaria, where he showeth the self same order of singing Psalms to be then used in the Church, that we use at this day. If by tossing of Psalms like tennis balls, you mean the over hasty reading or singing of them, it is indeed to be misliked: but it is no part of the book, and therefore no cause why you should abstain from subscribing to it. T. C Pag. 163. Sect. 1 To pass by the profane proverb here used, which matcheth mad men, and women, and childr together▪ most unseemly for a D. of divinit , especially handling divine matters: for the singing of Psalms by course, and side after side, although it be very ancient, yet it is not commendable, and so much the more to be suspected, for that the devil hath go about, to get it so great authority, partly by deriving it from Ignatius time, and partly in making the world believe, that this ocrat. 6▪ . 8. cap. Platin. cap. Damas. Theod. 2. lib. 24. cap. came from heaven, and that the Angels were herded to ng after this sort, which as it is a mere fable, so is it confuted by Historiographers, whereof some ascribe the beginning of this to Damasus, some other unto Flavianus, and Dioo rus. From whence soever it came, it cannot be good, (*) This is flat con r. ie to that you affirm. pag. 109. Sect. . considering that when it is granted that all the people may praise God (as it is in singing of Psalms) there this aught not to be restrained unto a few, and where it is lawful both with heart and 〈◊〉 to sing the whole Psalm, there i is not inecte that they should sing but the one half with their heart and voice, and the other with their heart only. For where they may both with heart and voice sing, there the heart is not enough. Therefore besides that incommodity which cometh this way, in that being tossed after this sort, men cannot understand what is song, these other two inconuemences come of this form of singing. & therefore is banished in all reform churches. Io. Whitgifte. To the slanderous untruth of the Admonition, or to my answer there unto, you say nothing, but pass it over. S. Paul used a profane proverb in very serious and divine matters, when he said: Cretenses semper mendaces. etc. ad. Ti. 1. and therefore it well beseemeth a Doctor of Tit. 1. itie, aptly and fitly applying it. But why do you not found fault with the Authors of the Admonition who use a more profane proverb, (that is, tossing of tennis balls) in as serious a matter? You confess that singing of Psalms by course, and side after side is very uncient, and therefore I shall not need to labour in proving that: the diversity of opinions touching the original of it, cannot prejudice the thing: and yet if Ignatius were the Author of it, as Socrates lib. 6. cap. 8. saith, it is not the less to be esteemed, but I will examine your Socr. li. 6. cap. 8 reasons. When it is granted (you say) that all the people may praise God, it aught not to be restrained to a few: this is soon answered, for all the people may sing if they can and will: and those that sing not in voice may sing in heart, for the Psalms are song in a tongue that is known: and some there be that can neither read nor sing, such of necessity must harken to those that sing, and join with them in heart. You add, that where they may sing the whole Psalm both with voice and heart, it is not meet they should sing with heart only, for where they may both with heart and voice sing, there the heart is not enough. Where learn you this in scripture? will you set down general and absolute rules, and not tell us upon what authority they be grounded? This is too-too Popelike, whose words will stand for reason, whom none must ask why doth he so, or saith so. The prayer of the heart alone when a man may also pray with voice, is of great Prayer by heart only, effectual. force, and very effectual, as the example of Anna in the first of Samuel doth declare. I grai t that in the public congregation God is to be called upon both in heart & voice, but yet if a man at some times either because of the order appointed by the Church, or upon some other occasion do hold his peace, and desire that in heart only, which other sing▪ or pray in voice, no doubt he prayeth effectually. Saint Paul. 1. Cor. 14. speaking of praying and thanksgiving in the public Congregation sayeth: Else 1. Cor. 14. when thou blessest with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest? Of the which words it may evidently be gathered, that one said the prayers, and the rest of the people joined with him in heart, and therefore said Amen, when he had ended his prayers. And so doth M. Calvin interpret this place. You see then how far your rule is wide from the rule of S. Paul. For even in the public congregation, he alloweth one to pray in heart & voice, and all the rest to pray in heart only. Wherefore, where they may both with heart & voice sing, there to sing with the heart is enough. But Lord how you forget yourself: before you found fault with the book b see the people repeated their prayers after the minister, and that because the Minister is the only mouth of the people to the Lord. etc. now (as though you were not the same m but played some other part) you find fault with the order of Service because they not their own mouths to the Lord: then to pray with heart was sufficient: now it is not enough: whence this contrariety should spring I cannot imagine, except I should ascribe it to a froward and preposterous desire that you have to deface this Church: but because I have touched this more largely in the proper place, I will content myself with the only noting of it in this place. If you will say it was then the manner of the Church, that one should pronounce the prayers, the rest hearkening unto him, and therefore could not without the breaking of order speak: the same I say unto you: that this hath been of long time the general order of the Church to s g bysides, and therefore may not without disorder be broken, so long as the Church doth think it convenient to be kept, as a lawful and convenient order. The Psalms being song, may as well be understanded as being said, and better too. If it be otherwise, the fault is not in singing, but in the manner of s ging, which is the fault of the people, not of the thing. And therefore that is but a very weak reason, and it is à non causa. Chap. 7. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 205. Sect. 3. 4. Walking, talking, reading, private praying of the people in time of common prayers, serving of two cures, games played in the after noon on the Sabbath day, as lying for the whetstone, etc. be faults worthy of punishment, where they be used, but they are not within the contents of the book, and they are here recited out of place, and to no purpose. This is very malicious and undiscreet dealing, to burden the common Undiscrete dealing with the ke oh common prayer. order with such faults, which by the malice of men are grown in use, and are of all good men misliked. So you might have burdened Saint Paul, and other Preachers, with the faults of the Churches of Corinth, and Galatians, & the residue of the Apostles, with the superstitions of the jews converted in the primitive Church, and all good rulers with such faults as corruption of time breeds. Standing or sitting at this time or that time is indifferent, and therefore may both be well used, and abused also. Kneeling at the name of jesus is of the like nature, ringing when Matins is Kneeling at the name of jesus. done, (as you term it) curious singing, Organs. etc. All these be without the book, and therefore without discretion alleged as a reason why you will not subscribe to the book. T. C. Pag. 163. past the midst. Unto two very good reasons which the Admonition useth, to show the inconvenience of making curte e, and standing at the name of jesus, and at the Gospel rather than at other names of God, and the rest of the Scripture, whereof the one is, that it is against decency and good order. which is broken by scraping of the feet, and the other that it may breed a da gerous opinion of the inequality either of the son of God, with the other people, or of the Gospels with other Scriptures. M. Doctor saith that it is an indifferent thing, and neither taketh away their reasons, nor setteth down any of his own: this is a slender defence. And it is no malicious dealing to note those faults which are so general and so open, and yet notwithstanding uncorrected or unreformed by those, by whom M. Doctor would make us believe that the Church is best governed. But I pray you tell me, why do you condemn the serving of two cures, that allow the having of two benefices? If it be no fault to have two benefices, how is it one, to have two cures? For the Curate is better able to read his service in two places, than the Pastor to discharge his office in two Churches. Io. Whitgifte. The first reason of hindering the word by the noise made with scraping the see upon the ground, as it is used by them in derision, so is it of itself ridiculeus, and not worthy to be answered: besides it is untrue, for it hindereth no more the word being read, than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached. But Lord how sparing are you of time, that will not spare so much as may serve a man to bow his knee in. Well it is but a pretence, to help out with a merry argument: for I dare say neither they nor you are so undiscrete, as to use it in good sadness. Their second reason hath some more gravity in it, though not much more weight, and your addition, that it may breed a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the Sanne of God with the other people, or of the Gospel with other Scriptures, is but supposed, and a man may suppose the Moon to be made of green cheese. That gesture at the name of jesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred years, and yet never any was herded tell of, that fallen into either of these opinions by the means thereof. One reason that moved Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of jesus. name of jesus, than at any other name of God, was because this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked jews, and other persecutors of such as professed the name of jesus: for the other names of God they had in reverence, but this they could not abide: wherefore the Christians to signify their faith in jesus, and their obedience unto him, and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the jews and other infidels, used to do bodily reverence, at all times when they herded the name of jesus, but especially when the Gospel was read, which contained that glad tidings of salvation which is procured unto man by Christ jesus, whereupon also he is called jesus, that is, a Saviour. Neither can it be against christianity to show bodily reverence, when he is named by whom not only all the spiritual enemies of mankind are subdued, but also the faithful be made partakers of the kingdom of heaven. Wherefore as I bind no man of necessity to this reverence at the name of jesus, so do I not judge any man that (having knowledge) useth the same: for I will not holster and defend superstitious ignorance. It must needs be malicious dealing, to charge the common order and book of public prayer, with particular faults of private men and places. If you know where these abuses be, and will complain of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop, I dare say they will reform them. There is better reason why one Pastor may have two benefices, than one Curate serve in two cures, for ministering of the Sacraments and reading public prayers daily, doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the word. A man may better in one day preach at two Churches, than he can at them both minister the Sacraments, and celebrated public prayers. That Pastor that hath two benefices, and two good Curates at them both, may with much more facility do his duty, both towards his Churches particularly, and the whole Church generally. Of Cathedral Churches. etc. Tract. 22. Admonition. As for Organs and curi ns singing, though they be proper to popish dens, I mean to Cathedral Churches, yet some others also must have them. The Queen's Chapel, and these Churches must be patterns and precedents to the people of all superstitions. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 206. Sect. 1 Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedral Churches, Popish dens, As hap is your words are no slander. But this brag I will make of Cathedral Churches, and such as be now in them, I will offer unto you a dozen Cathedral Churches in England (which I myself do know) the worst whereof in learning, shall encounter with all Papists, Puritans, Anabaptists, and what other sects soever in England, for the defence of religion now professed, either by word or writing. Without arrogancy be it spoken, I think there was never time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise, learned and godly men, than they be at this day. I speak not this boastingly, but to God's glory, the honour of the Prince, the comfort of the godly, and the shame of slanderous Papists, and disdainful Schismatics. Your slanderous speech of the Queen's majesties Chapel, which you also say to be a pattern and precedent to the people of all superstitions, is rather severely to be punished, than with words to be confuted. T. C. Page. 163. towards the end. & Page 164. Sect. 1 As for the speech of the cathedral Churches, either it is nothing or else it is false. For if he say that there is either in all those cathedral Churches one, or in every of those 12. churches one, which is able to confute Papists. etc. What great thing saith he, which saith no more of all these Churches, than is to be found in one poor house of the university, whose rents are scarce 300. pound by year? Yea what hath he said of them which was not to be found in them even in Queen Mary's time, when there was yet some one almost in every Church, which for fear dissembling, was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists, Anabaptists, Puritans. And if he mean that in those twelve houses, the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defend the truth against all Papists, etc. all men do know the untruth of it, so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth, yet how so ever it be taken, it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it, a mere brag. And yet I doubt not, and a well assured, that there be diverse godly learned men which have livings in those places, but for all that they cease not therefore to be dens of loiterers and idle people, whilst there are nourished there some which serve for no profitable use in the Church, their offices being such as bring no commodity, but rather hurt, of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page: some other which having charges in other places, under the colour of their Prebends there, absent themselves from them: and that which they spoil and raven in other places, there they spend and make good cheer with, and therefore not without good cause called dens. Finally there being nothing there, which might not be much better applied, and to the greater commodity of the Church, whilst they might be turned into Colleges, where young men might be brought up in good learning, and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth, the universities being not able to receive that number of scholars, wherewith there need may be supplied. And where M. D. saith, that that which is spoken of the Queen's majesties chapel, is worthy rather to be punished, than confuted, if so be that these be abuses, the example of them in her matesties' chapel, cannot be but most dangerous, which with all humble submission and reverence, I beseech her Majesty duly to consider. Io. Whitgifte. My speech is very plain and without all ambiguity, I say there is a dozen Cathedral Churches in England, the worst of the which Churches in learning shall encounter with all papists. etc. My meaning can not be so dark as you would seem to make it: but because your understanding is so dull, when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of yourself, I will more plainly declare my meaning: which is this, that there is not one of these dozen Churches, but hath a sufficient number of learned men, to perform what so ever I have promised, how so ever boastingly, which I acknowledge to be my infirmity, but yet there unto constrained by the arrogancy of such, qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse. Your opprobrious speeches spoken of those Churches, as mere slanders, and proceeding from a mind overcome with envy, and contempt of other, I pass over, affirming still the same that is contained in mine Answer to the Admonition, the which you may well snap and bite at in words, but in deed you shall never be able to stain those places: and whatsoever you pretend to the universities, yet your good will is as much towards the one as it is towards the other, they both depending upon one thread. But if there be abuses in her majesties Chapel (as you suppose) why have you not sought the reformation thereof orderly? Why have you sought it tumultuously? why have you libeled against it? why have you sought it with spiteful words, with disquieting the Church, without all duty and order? The. 2. Division. Admonition. The seventeenth. We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedral Churches, the dens aforesaid of all loitering lubbers, where master Deane▪ master Uicedeane, master Canons, or master Prebendaries the greater, master pecie Canons, or Canons the lesser, master Chancellor of the Church, master Treasurer, or otherwise called judas the purse bearer, the chief Chauncer, Singing men special favourers of religion, squeaking choristers, Organ players, Gospelers, Pistellers▪ Pensioners, Readers, Uergers. etc. live in great idleness, and have their abiding. If you would know whence all these came, we can easily answer you, that they came from the Pope, as out of the Trojan horses belly, to the destruction of God's kingdom. The Church of God never known them, neither doth any reform Church in the world know them. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 224. Sect. ult. &. pag. 225. Sect. 1 Here you speak both without the book of common prayer and Scriptures also, for neither are Cathedral Churches contained in that book, neither have you any Scripture to prove that which you so impudently affirm. God be thanked it is well known to those that be not with malice blinded, that Cathedral Churches be furnished with godly, zealous Learned men in cathedral Churches. and learned men. And that they be the chief and principal ornaments of this Realm, and next to the Universities, chiefest maintainers of godliness, religion and learning: there be some desire the spoil of them, whose instruments you be: But I hope both their mouths and yours also shall be first stopped with earth. Master Deane, master Uicedeane, master Canons, etc. as much as they loiter, may think themselves fit to be compared with such as you are, in any respects. T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them, in the. 225. page as that they are necessary (which he doth barely say) and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Dean, and that the Authors of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoil of them, and that a man may as well speak against Universities and Colleges, as ag ynst them, I have answered before, saving that it is to be feared, that Colleges in Universities (if M. Doctor may work that which he goeth about) will shortly be in little better case, than those cathedral Churches, which not only by his own example, but with might & main, and all endeavour possible, goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies, and such as have charges of Churches in other places, (*) What will this slanderous tongue spare which do no good in the university, and partly are such as can do none, only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting, and making great cheer with the prays and spoils which they bring out of the country, to the great hurt of the university presently, and utter ruin of it hereafter, unless speedy remedy be therefore provided. Io. Whitgifte. If I may work that which (you say I go about, I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either from the glory of God, the honour of the Prince, the peace of the church, the commendation of the university, or the increase of godliness, & learning. I thank god I neither have go about any thing, nor intend to do, whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hot and ter 〈◊〉. or afraid to make mine account. But who seeth not your grief? In deed I may not suffer those with whom I have to do, to disquiet the University or College with false doctrine and schismatical opinions: I may not suffer them openly to break & contemn those laws & statutes which they are sworn to observe, and I to execute: I may not suffer any man against the express words of his oath, against all honesty and conscience to live under me, lest I be partaker of his perjury: these be the things that I have done, and these be the things that I intend to do: whereby as hitherto I have kept the place where I am, in some quiet and good order, so do I trust to continued it, both to the glory of God, the honour of the Prince, the great increase of learning, the edifying of Christ's Church, and the commendation both of the College and the whole University. And howsoever you have by word and writing sought to deface both me and The college delivered from the slanderous Reply. the College: yea the whole university for my sake (contrary to the express words of your oath, as I said in the beginning) yet are you in act and deed confuted, though I should not speak one word: for contrary to your expectation and practice of your instruments, and earnest desire of all that be factious, the College was never in better quietness, never replenished with more toward scholars, never fuller of students of all degrees (I speak it to God's glory & to deliver it from your slanders) than it is at this present. A great occasion of all these blissinges of God (as instruments and means) is the gravity, the honesty, the wisdom, the learning, the discrete government of those, whom you call non residentes: whom not I but the noble founders statutes, ratified by the queens majesties authority, and allowed of by the wisest of the realm, for most just consideration, even for the better government of the College, being otherwise full of youth, have licenced (being in the number of the twelve preachers choose according to statute) to continued in their fellowships with one living besides, to a certain value. If there were the like provision in other places, and the same furnished with such kind of men, the state of divers Colleges in Cambridge, would not be so tumultuous, as it is. Touching the parties themselves, against whom you so bitterly whet your The fellow defended against the poisoned tongue. tongue, upon the same causes and quarrels you do against me, this I will speak unfeignedly, as I shall answer before God and the world: they are sober, honest, wise, quiet men, faithful and learned preachers, and that time of absence which is given unto them by statute, they do carefully bestow in their cures, and other places where there is need, according to their duty and conscience, except the necessary government of the College, and public utility do constrain them to the contrary. The worst of them and he that is most negligent, doth more good in the Church and common wealth, than you do, or any of your adherentes. I will not speak all that I might justly, lest I should seem to flatter, and in part to commend myself: but this is the sum, none of us refuse trial, either of life, government, learning, living, or what soever is to be required in the ministers of God, and dutiful subjects towards their Prince. It is an egregious slander when you say, they be pernicious examples of riotous feastings, etc. I know the contrary: and think not you, but God will take due punishment of this your notorious malice, uttered upon private quarrel, as it is well known to all this society. In deed they love one an other, agreed among themselves, obey laws, keep order, labour to suppress Schisms, and this is that, that whetteth your tongue, and the tongues of other disordered people against them. I could requited all these your hard speeches, if I were disposed to deal so maliciously: But I will temper myself, desiring God not to impute these things unto you: the Reader I shall desire either to judge the best, or to suspend his judgement until he have the trial. The. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 225. Sect. 2. 3. You say all these come from the Pope, etc. It is not material from whence they come, so they be good, profitable, & necessary, for the maintaining of religion, learning, wise & learned men: but I pray you from what Pope came they? or in what time did the Pope invent them? I told you before that such places and Colleges were in Augustine's Deane allowed by S. Augustine. time, & that he both hath the name of M. Deane, and alloweth of his office. If you had red any ancient learned Authors (as your writings declare you have not) then should you find that Collegiate churches be of great antiquity, even since the year of our Lord 235. But what can you speak against Cathedral churches, which you may not as well speak against the Colleges in the universities? They were not in the Apostles time neither yet in the primitive Barbarism and confusion secretly intended. Church: must they therefore now be dissolved? your meaning is belike to bring all to confusion and barbarism. You say, no reform church in the world knoweth them, wherein I think you speak more than you know. Can you name any reform church that hath plucked them down? Peradventure in divers places where the gospel is now preached, they had never such rewards for learning. But what have we to do in such cases with other reform churches? we have to consider what is most meet for this church, and state: & not to follow other, as though we were children: I see no cause why other reform churches should not rather follow us, than we them, seeing in no respect we be inferior to them. Well, to conclude, your words be but vain, and your proofs none at all: and therefore I doubt not but Cathedral churches shall be able to withstand both your opprobrious speeches, & the greediness of all their adversaries, so long as it shall please God to bless this land with so virtuous & learned a Queen, & so wise and discrete counsellors. T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And where he saith it is not material, although these Deans, Uycedeanes, Canons, Petycanons, prebendaries, etc. come from the Pope, it is, as if he should say, that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomless pit. For whatsoever cometh from the Pope which is Antichrist, cometh first from the Devil: and where he addeth this condition (if it be good. etc.) in deed if of the eggs of a Cokatrice can be made wholesome meat to feed with, or of a spider's web any clot to cover withal, then also may the things that come from the Pope & the Devil, be good, profitable, and necessary unto the church. And where he saith that Collegiate churches are of great annciencie, he proveth not the anciency of the Cathedral churches, unless he prove that cathedral and collegiate be all one. But I will not stick with him in so small a matter, and if our controversy were of the names of these churches, & not of the matter, I could be content to grant his cause in this point as good as antiquity without the word of god (which is nothing but rottenness) could make it. Io. Whitgifte. This Reply neither answereth directly nor truly, to any thing that I have set down. Tract. 7. For first it is untrue that all things coming from an Antichristian Pope, cometh first from the Devil. I have sufficiently proved the contrary in that portion, where I speak of Good things may come from evil men. apparel of ministers: an evil man may do some thing that is good, even as a good man may do some thing that is evil: & as God doth work the good by the one, so doth the Devil work the evil by the other. ethnics have made good laws, they have appointed stipends & rewards for learning, & such other like good things, which are profitable & not to be rejected for the Author's sakes, though they were members of Satan. Secondly, it is untrue that Cathedral Churches came from the Antichristian Cathe ll churches before the Antichristi l Popes. The 〈◊〉 answereth not that which is demanded. Pope: for I told you that they were in the year of our Lord. 235. at what time the Bishops of Rome were godly men and Martyrs. Thirdly, you have not answered my question, for I demanded from what Pope they came or in what time they were first invented: And to this you say not one word: wherefore in effect you have answered nothing. If they be of so late a foundation, it must needs appear who was the first inventor of them: but if that can not he found (as belike it can not) than must their antiquity be very great. Collegiate and Cathedral Churches be all one, for any thing that I can read to the contrary: if it be not so, show the difference. The. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those ancient Collegiate churches were no more like unto those which we have now, than things most unlike, our Cathedral churches have not so much as this old worn cloak of Antiquity, to hide their nakedness, & to keep out the shower. For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical, standing of godly learned ministers and elders, which governed and watched over that flock which was in the city or town where such churches were, & for that in such great cities & towns commonly there were the most learned pastors & ancients, therefore the towns & villages round about in hard & difficuite causes, came and had their resolutions of their doubts at their hands, even as also the Lord commanded in Deuteron e, Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the country, which the Le tes in matters pertaining to God, and the judges in matters pertaining to the common wealth, could not discuss, that then they should come to Jerusalem, where there was a great number of Priests, Le tes, and learned judges, of whom they should have their questions dissolved, and this was the first use of Collegiate churches. Io. Whitgifte. True it is, that in times passed there was in every city, Collegium presbyterorum cui In every city a college of 〈◊〉. praeerat Episcopus, a College of ministers over whom the Bishop bore rule, the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae, the Senate of the church: and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedral church. It is also evident that these Presbyteri, were all Priests, & that they with the Bishop had the deciding of all controversies in doctrine or ceremonies, & the direction of divers other matters in all those places that were under that city, that is in all that shire or Diocese: & therefore sayeth M. Caluine (speaking Institut. cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitive church) Every city had a college of Seniors which were Pastors & Doctors, for they all had the office of preaching to the people, of exhorting, and of correcting, the which office S. Paul doth commit to Bishops: and this is that Signiory, whereof the ancient writers speak so much, & which you untruly & without consideration say to have been in every parish, and to consist as well of other as of Priests, & Ministers of the word, and although that kind of government, which these churches had, is transferred to the Civil Magistrate, to whom it is due, and to such as by him are appointed, yet is it not so clean blotted out, as you would make us believe. For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of ancient time. the Bishop who was then, and is now the chief of that college or Church, keepeth his authority still, & may if he please call together those ministers or Priests of the Cathedral Church to consult of such things as are expedient, & in divers parts he can do nothing without them. Moreover diverse of the same churches, some 〈◊〉 office, and some appointed by election, are bound to attend upon provincial 〈◊〉, so often as the Archbishop at the commandment of the Prince doth call the ame. wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most part, the best, the wise , the learnedst men of the Clergy in the land, which not only, in the respect of their soundness in religion, profoundness in learning, diligence in preaching, but wisdom also, experience, & dexterity in governing, are not only an ornament to the realm, profitable to the Church, honour to the Prince: but also a stay from barbarism, a bridle to sects & heresies, & a bulwark against confusion. Wherefore as the use of The hse of Cathedral churches as necessary now as afore 〈◊〉. them then, for those times & states was good and godly: so is the use of them now in this age and state no less convenient, godly, and necessary, which you nor all your fautors shall ever be able to disprove. The. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 164. In the end. afterward the honour which the smaller Churches gave unto them in ask them council▪ they took unto themselves, and that which they had by the courtesy and good will proceeding of a reverent estimation of them, they did not only take unto them of right, but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all, And in the end they came to this which they are now, which is a company that have strange names and strange offices, unheard of of all the purer churches, of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is, that they do no harm. For although there be diverse which do good, yet in respect that they be Deans, Prebendaries▪ Canons, Petycanons, etc. for my part I see no profit but hurt come to the church by them. Io. Whitgifte. All this is untrue, and your own enely imagination: for these Churches have not increased their authority, but diminished it rather, as it is evident. The names Tract. 8. Ca 2. and offices used in them, I have proved before in the title of Archbishops, etc. to be neither strange nor unheard of in the purer and ancient Churches. And though you see no profit that cometh to the Church by them, yet those that be quietly disposed in the Church, those that have a care for the good government of the Church, those that have not by any schism divided themselves from the Church, see great profit and singular commodity. The. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewards of learning, in deed than they should be if they were converted unto the maintenance and bringing up of Scholars, where now for the most part, they serve for fat morsels to fill (if might be) the greedy appetites of those, which otherwise have enough to live with, and for holes and dens to keep them in, which either are unworthy to be kepce at the charge of the church, or else whose presence is necessary and dutiful in other places, and for the most part unprofitable there. Last of all, whereas M. Doctor saith that we have not to follow other churches, but rather other churches to follow us, I have answered before: this only I add, that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine, but those which made the people of God believe, that they were happy when they were not, and that their estate was very good, when it was corrupt. Of the which kind of false prophecy I say and jeremy especially do complain. And therefore unless M. Doctor amend his speech, and leave this crying, peace, peace, all is well, when there are so many things out of order, and that not by the judgement of the Admonition and favourers thereof only, but even of all which are not willingly blind, I say if he do not amend these speeches, the crime of false prophecy will sit closer unto him, than he shall be ever able to shake of, in the terrible day of the Lord. Io. Whitgifte. There must be as well rewards for those that have spent much time in getting There must be rewards for learning already attained. learning, and be learned, as there must be means to maintain men while they be in learning. Grammar schools, and the Universities serve for the one: and Cathedral churches with such other preferments serve, for the other: spoil the one and the other can not possibly stand. Your immodest and uncharitable speeches work most discredit to yourself. That which I speak of other Churches by way of comparison, I speak for the truth of the doctrine, sincere administration of the Sacraments, and all other points of Religion, by public authority established in this Realm, wherein I say again, that there is no cause why it should give place to any Church that n we is. And yet I do not defend the faults of men, or other corruptions (from the which no Church is free.) But for the crime of false prophecy wherewith you charge me, I trust it be far from me: I would proneness to contention, and uncharitable judging▪ were as far from you. Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our own Lord: and therefore it is no good judging before the time. ¶ Of civil offices in Ecclesiastical people. Tract. 23. A trial of the places alleged by the Admonition, against such civil offices as are exercised by Ecclesiastical people in this realm. Chap. 1. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3 The places alleged by the Admonition to prove that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with civil functions (one only excepted) are well and fitly alleged: and most of them used to that end of writers, which if I should name, (*) Lord how low would you throw him down. all would confess, that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day. Io. Whitgifte▪ This is more than modesty would suffer, and too-too outrageous: for whatsoever the worthiness of these men is otherwise, yet am I a minister of the word as well as they: I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they: I am bought with his blood as well as they: & therefore to say, that I am not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day wherein they are named: is but extreme immodesty, & passing contempt. There is not so much attributed to jesus Christ: nor the Pope's flatterers, did never so excessively extol him. Are they so worthy that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named? who be they trow we, or what is their names? But belike you are afraid to name them, lest by speaking of me the same day you should do unto them some great dishonour: in your judgement they are better than God himself, for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is. In deed a pretty cloak to cover your vain bragging, for I think you would have named them, if you had known them. But to the matter. Chap. 1. the. 2. Division. Admonition. Moreover, in that they have ( s Luc. 9 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sons popish, Eugenius the first bringer of them in. civil offices joined to the Ecclesiastical, it is against the word of God. As for an Archbishop to be a Lord precedent, a Lord Bishop to be a County Palatine, a prelate of the Garter, who hath much to do at S. Georges feast when the Bible is carried before the Procession in the crosses place, a justice of peace, or justice of Quorum, an high Commissioner. etc. And therefore they have their prisons, as Clinks, G t: houses, Colehouses, towers and astles, which is also against the Scriptures. This is not to have keys but sword, and plain tokens they are, that they exercise that which they would so fain seem to want, I mean dominion over their brethren. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To prove that civil offices joined to the Ecclesiastical is against the word of God, first you note Luke. 9 verse. 60. 61. where it is thus written. And jesus said unto him, let the dead bury the dead, but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. Then an other said I will follow thee Lord, but let me first go bid them farewell which are at my house. How conclude you any thing of these places against civil offices in Ecclesiastical people? Christ's meaning in this place is to teach us (I mean all Christians) that when he calleth us, we aught not to be hindered from following (and that forthwith) by any excuse of doing duty towards our friends, or respect of worldly commodity, or for fear of any pain or trouble, and this is spoken generally to all Christians, and not alone to any one kind of men. T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister aught rather to leave necessary duties of burying 9 Lu. . his father, and saluting his friends undone, than that he should not accomplish his ministery to the full, much more he aught not to take upon him those things, which are not only not necessary duties, but as it shall appear, do in no case belong unto him. And although it may be applied to all Christians, yet it doth most properly belong unto the ministers. Io. Whitgifte. This is no answer to that which I have said: for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is, that when we are called to eternal life by him we aught not to protract the time, nor to seek any delays, but leave all and follow him: this is the meaning of Christ, & this is the sum of my Answer: and to this you say nothing: but make a new collection, that the minister aught rather to leave necessary duties of burying his father. etc. which (though it be not the direct sense of this place) yet I grant it to be true: for such civil offices as I allow in Ecclesiastical people are helps for them to do their duties. Wherefore as this place is unaptly applied by the Admonition, so is it unanswered by you, & it may as well be used to debar any other Christians from civil functions, as ministers of the word. Chap. 1. the. 3. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 215. Sect. 1.. Secondly, for the same purpose you use Luke. 12. verse. 14. where Christ speaking to him that said unto him, Master bid my brother divide the inheritance with me, answereth on this sort, Man who made me a judge or a divider over you? Christ came in deed to be judged, & not to judge, he came to work the work of our redemption, not to decide controversies touching lands and possessions. But will you therefore take from Christian men authority to judge? for this example of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings, because the doings of Christ is a pattern for all Christians, and yet Christians may judge matters, and decide controversies amongst their brethren. Look. 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists use this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted. of their reasons to condemn magistratie among Christians: & therefore a very learned and late writer, in his exposition of this place, writeth thus: Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant, qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant: nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa, tanquàm profana sit, sed à vocatione sua, quòd missus sit in alium finem, tametsi res erat per se satis sancta & pia. Hereof may it be gathered, how greatly they dote which condemn magistrates amongst Christians by this place, for Christ doth not reason of the thing itself, as though it were profane, but of his own vocation, because he was sent to an other end, although the thing of itself is holy and good. T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. & ult. And as for the other place of Luke touching our saviour Christ's refusal to divide the inheritance 12. Luke. between the brethren, it is most aptly alleged to this purpose. For although our saviour Christ doth not there take away from men authority to judge, yet he showeth thereby sufficiently, that it belongeth not unto the ministers of the word, to intermeddle in the judgement of civil causes. For our saviour Christ framed that answer having respect to the bounds of his calling. For as he being minister of the Gospel did all those things which were pertaining to his ministery: so by refusing this office of judgement in civil causes, he gave to understand, that it did not appertain unto the compass of that office, which he exercised, which was the ministery. And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here allegeth, that the Anabaptistes use this reason to prove that Christians may not have magistrates. For how doth this follow, that because this place of S. Luke proveth not, that we aught to have no Christian magistrates, that therefore it proveth not, that the minister should be no magistrate, as if there could be no civil magistrates, unless ministers of the word were. And the place which he allegeth out of the learned man, doth not only, not make any thing for him, but doth quite overthrow his cause. For he saith that our saviour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in itself unlawful, but because it did not agreed with his vocation. Now the vocation of our saviour Christ, was to be a minister of the Gospel, therefore it doth not agreed with the vocation of a minister of the gospel to judge or to intermeddle in civil government. And if M. Doctor had been so studious of M. Caluins' works, as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit. 11. cap. allegation of him, he would make the world believe, he might have red in him this sentence cited for this purpose, to prove that the ministers have not to do in civil things. Io. Whitgifte. Neither do you here reply to my Answer, for I told you that Christ came to be judged, not to judge in matters of lands and possessions: I told you likewise that this example of Christ pertaineth no more to Bishops than it doth to Kings, and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied against Bishops, than by the Anabaptistes against Christian Magistrates. To all this in effect you have said nothing. Your own collection is soon answered. first, no man giveth to Bishop's authority to judge in matters of inheritance, for such controversies are to be decided by law, which hath other judges appointed for it. Secondly, Christ spoke this to declare that his kingdom was not of this world, but of the world to come, not earthly, but heavenly, not temporal, but eternal: and therefore he spoke it touching his own person only, and not as a rule pertaining to other Christians. as the Anabaptists feign. Thirdly, the authority in civil matters that is committed to ministers in Civil offices in our ministers tend to the government of the church. this Church, is committed unto them by the Prince, for the better government of the Church, and the fuller satisfying of their duty, consisting for the most part only in punishing and correcting sin. And lastly, it is not made a thing incident to the ministery, or as part of that office, but it is added as profitable, convenient, and necessary for the present state of the Church, and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duty. I have told you in my Answer to the Admonition, that this example of Christ doth no more pertain unto Bishops, than to other Christians (which being true and unconfuted by you) then doth it follow that the Anabaptistes may aswell allege it against other Christians, as you may do against Bishops or Ministers. The learned man's interpretation doth well agree with my cause: for Christ refused it, because he came to be judged, and to suffer death, for the redemption of the world, which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of, and is only proper to Christ. I deny not but that M. Caluine may apply this text to that purpose, but M. Caluine doth expound himself, writing upon this same place, when he saith, that every man must respect his own vocation, & quid illi sit aptum, and what is meet for it. Now the civil authority that Ecclesiastical people have in this Church, is meet for their vocation: And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing against it. In the same book & chapter, he allegeth these words of bernard▪ which he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter: Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra. etc. Wherefore your power is in offences, not in possessions. And this conclusion he bringeth in upon the words of S. Luke chapter. 12. I would not, as I said before, have Bishops judges in controversies of inheritance, Wherein the Bishop's authority consists. I do not affirm that they may in the right of their ministery, challenge any civil authority, as the Bishop of Rome doth. But forasmuch as the authority is in Criminibus, in offences, as bernard saith, therefore if it please the Prince to give it them, they may lawfully execute so much authority civil, as shall further and help them in suppressing sin. And this is against nothing that M. Caluine hath said. For M. Caluine and other learned writers of this age, do use this place of S. Luke and such like, against the usurpation of romish Bishops, challenging such authority in civil matters as due unto them, jure divino, and so placing themselves in Princes offices, did esteem all their duty towards the Church to consist therein, and did nothing else pertaining to the office of a Bishop. As for the authority that our Bishops have in such matters, I think that neither M. Caluine, nor any other godly man can disallow of it. Chap. 1. the. 4. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 215. Sect. 2. In the third place you allege Rom. 12. verse. 7. He that hath an office, let him wait on his office, or he that teacheth, on teaching. What is this to the purpose? He that hath an office, must attend upon his office, and he that teacheth, on teaching, therefore Bishops may The Bishop governeth aswell by discipline as by preaching. not have civil offices. The office of a Bishop is aswell to govern by discipline, as by preaching: this is a very simple argument. T. C. Page. 166. Lin. 9 Furthermore M. Doctor asketh what S. Paul's place to the Romans (where he willeth 12. Rom. that he which hath an office, must wait of that office, he that teacheth of his teaching) maketh to this purpose. Surely M. Doctor very much. Neither can there be a place more properly I is certain that divers of these gifts mentioned Rom. 12. (as teaching and exhor thing) may concur in one man, so that he may be apt for divers functions: neither doth the Apostle there tie one man to one gift or function only. alleged, both for the very plainness of the words, and also for the circumstance of the place. For Saint Paul speaketh there against those, which would overreach their callings, and having certain callings, contented not themselves with them, but would have an oar in every man's boat, and would take more upon them than they were able to do, or the measure of their gifts would stretch unto. And therefore showeth that as the body is best preserved when every member thereof doth his office, and destroyed when one member will take upon it to do the office of an other: so the Church is then best governed, when every ecclesiastical person keepeth himself within the limits of his calling, not meddling with that which pertaineth unto an other. But M. Doctor saith, that the bishop governeth as well by discipline, as by preaching: so he doth. But I pray you by what discipline? what a reason is this, he governeth by discipline, Ergo by civil discipline. You say in the next sentence, that the authors of the Admonition either dote or dream. But if these be your sharp disputations when you are awake, surely they are very blunt when you dream. But I had rather judge the best, that M. Doctor was overwatched. Io. Whitgifte. Surely M. T. C. it maketh nothing at all to that purpose, neither doth S. Paul speak it to that end: but he speaketh it to move every one diligently and truly to walk in his vocation and calling, and therefore in the same place he saith, qui praeest in diligentia: and as I have told you, this civil authority that I speak of, is not claimed, but committed: is no hindrance, but an help to the ecclesiastical function. Civil authority not claimed, but committed to our Bishops. Neither is this to usurp any other man's vocation, but dutifully to use that office that is given unto us by the Prince, to help us forward in our own vocation, and calling. An ecclesiastical Pastor must use that discipline that is appointed unto him by the Magistrate and orders of that Church whereof he is minister, be it civil or ecclesiastical, so that if the kind of discipline used in that Church be civil, as it is in this Church for divers crimes, then doth he govern by civil discipline, and the argument is good, neither will you be able to answer it when you are best awake, howsoever I made it in my dream, or being over watched. Chap. 1. the. 5. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 216. Sect. 1 Fourthly, you cite. 1. Tim. 6. verse. 11. But thou O man of God, flee A place alleged to no purpose. these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and meekness Truly I think you dote, or else dream, your applications of scripture be so strange. What speaketh Paul here against civil offices in ecclesiastical people? He only willeth them in the person of Tim. to flee covetousness, and to follow righteousness. etc. Io. Whitgifte. This it that place that T. C. confesseth to be alleged to no purpose: and therefore here they are left to answer for themselves, as they be in the most of their quotations. Chap. 1. the. 6. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 216. Sect. 2. 3. The last text here quoted is the. 2. Tim. 2. verse. 3. 4. Thou therefore Expos' jon of 2. Tim. 2. 3. suffer affliction as a good soldier of jesus Christ: no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life, because he would please him that hath choose him to be a soldier. This latter sentence is general, and pertaineth to all men. The meaning is this, whosoever would be a soldier under Christ, must leave all worldly things, and follow him. It speaketh nothing either of civil or ecclesiastical offices. For if you will know what he there means by the affairs of this life, hear what M. Caluine saith, writing Caluine upon that place: per negotia vitae intelligit familiae administr 〈◊〉 cur & 〈◊〉 occupationes: By the affairs of this life he understandeth the care of governing his family, and other ordinary business. If you will learn how this place is to be applied, the same M. 〈◊〉 Caluine teacheth you like wise in these words following: Nunc applicanda est comparatio ad rem praesentem, quod quisquis vult sub Christo mill t e, 〈◊〉 relictis omnibus mundi tricis & avocamentis se illi totum suaque studia addi ere: Now this comparation is to be applied to the present purpose, that whosoever will play the warrior under Christ, leaving all worldly matters and impediments, must give himself wholly unto him. This therefore is genetal, and pertaineth to all Christians, but chief and especially to the ministers of the word, who may not occupy themselves in worldly business, as other men do: that is, they must not be merchants, husbandmen, crafts men, or hinder their vocation with Some civil offices rather helps than hindrances to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishop. such like worldly affairs. As for such civil offices as be committed to them, they be rather helps to their vocation, than impediments: for the office of a justice of peace, of an high Commissioner, and such like, is to punish vice and iniquity, to see good order kept in the common wealth, aswell in matters touching religion, as other common and public business. Wherefore as these offices be not mere civil, but partly ecclesiastical, and be for discipline and correction of sins: so in my opinion they be most meet to be committed to some of the wisest and best of the Clergy, to the end that such as by the word will not, by convenient discipline may be compelled to do their duties. Neither are such offices to be accounted worldly affairs, but rather heavenly and spiritual, forasmuch as they serve to the maintenance of religion and godliness, and to the suppressing of sin and wickedness. If it be true that Augustine saith: serviunt Reges Christo, leges ferendo pro Christo. It is also true, serviunt Episcopi Christo, leges exequendo pro Christo. T. C. Pag. 166. in the midst. The last place which is alleged by the Admonition, is out of the Epistle to Tim. where it showeth, that for so much as the state of a minister, is as that of a soldier, and therefore as the 2. Epist. 2. soldier, to the end he might the better please his captain, and do his service of warfare, quitteth all those things which he loveth, and whereof otherwyfe he might have care, and might enio even so the minister aught to dispatch himself, of all those things, which may be any let to the office of his ministery, although he might otherwise lawfully use them. And if so be for the performing of the ministery to the full, he must quite those things which he may lawfully use, how much more might the Admonition conclude, that he aught not to entangle himself with those things, which (out of the places of S. Luke, and to the Romans) it had showed to be unlawful for him to meddle with? And although M. Doctor say the sentence be general, yet it is particularly meant, and most properly of the ministers, which M. Caluine teacheth M. Doctor in the same place, where he hath cited his authority twice to no purpose. For what although M. Caluine do not there apply in prescript words this sentence to prove that ministers aught not to meddle with civil offices, doth it follow therefore that this place can not be used thereto? In saying that he aught to abstain from all lets which may hinder his vocation and ministery, he doth consequently say, that he aught to abstain from all civil offices, and if so be M. Doctor had been so well read in the ancient Doctors (as he would seem) he might have known that this place is used of Cyprian to the same purpose that it is alleged here. For Cyprian speaking against an Elder which 9 Epist. 1. lib. . had taken upon him to be executor to one which was dead, allegeth this place. Io. Whitgifte. That which is spoken of a soldier pertaineth to all Christians as well as to a minister: for every Christian man is a soldier: these civil functions be helps to the ministery, and may be lawfully used as I have said before. M. Caluine truly interpreteth the place, and his interpretation maketh fully for my purpose, and directly against you, as the Reader may easily perceive, so that your many words are soon with this brevity answered. Cyprian allegeth the place to good purpose: for to be an executor is a troublesome matter, and doth oftentimes hinder men from their other callings, so that sometimes even temporal men (as we call them) do avoid the same for the trouble that thereupon commonly ensueth: And yet I doubt whether you would refuse to be an executor, or not, if it were offered unto you by some: neither do I think it unlawful, so that the troublesomeness of it be not too much, and an hindrance in deed to weightier matters. Chap. 1. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 166. towards the end. To these reasons of the Admonition, may be added that which the Admonition hath in the. 230. page, that the regiment of the Church is spiritual, and respecteth the conscience, and therefore hath not to do with civil offices, which respect properly the common wealth, and the outward, godly, honest, and quiec behaviour. And therefore their meaning is, that as the civil governor doth use such kind of punishment as may bridle the outward man, and hold him that he dare not offend in the open breach of that godliness, honesty, and quietness which S. Paul commends 1. Tim. . unto us: so the ecclesiastical regiment doth use that kind of discipline, whereby the conscience and inward man may be kept in that willing obedience unto God's commandment, touching a godly, honest, and quiet life. Io. Whitgifte. The government of the Church in the respect of Christ, which by his holy spirit ruleth in the heart and conscience of man, is only spiritual: but it is not so in the respect of the visible Church, and earthly members, and ministers of the same: for than must you of necessity shut out the civil Magistrate from all kind of government in the Church, which is the matter you shoot at, cloak it as much as you can. But of the regiment of the Church, and of the untruth of this your assertion I have spoken before: and speak of it also in that which followeth. Chap. 1. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 230. Sect. 1. 3. You bid us in the margin (to prove that the regiment of the Church should be spiritual) read Ephe. 1. verse. 23. 1. Thes. 5. verse. 13. 1. Tim 5. verse. 2. Heb. 10. verse. 30. In the. 1. Thes. 5. the Apostle beseecheth them to love such for their works sake, as labour among them, are over them in the Lord, and admonish them. What argument call you this? S. Paul mou s the Thes. to love their Pastors: Ergo, the government of the Church is only spiritual. T. C. Page. 166. in the end. And to note the distinction of these regiments civil and spiritual, the place unto the Thessaly. 1. Thes. 5. is well alleged: for by the words (such as rule over you in the Lord) the Apostle doth put a difference between the civil & ecclesiastical regiment. For albeit that godly civil Magistrates do rule over us in the Lord, yet S. Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, by excellency, ascribeth that unto the ecclesiastical governors, because that whereas the civil Magistrate, beside his care for the salvation of the souls of his people, is occupied, in procuring also the wealth and quietness of this life: the ecclesiastical governors have all their whole care set upon that only, which pertaineth to the life to come. Io. Whitgifte. True it is that the civil government is distinguished from the ecclesiastical: but there is some thing common to them both, as these civil offices whereof we speak. The place to the Thes. which the Authors of the Admonition use, pag. 227. to prove that the government of the Church aught to be spiritual, can not be used to make any distinction betwixt civil and ecclesiastical government. For by your own confession this portion (are over you in the Lord) which you would have to make this distinction, is aswell spoken of the civil Magistrate, as it is of the Pastor, and so it is in deed, and therefore this text is abused both by them and you. The Apostle useth the same manner of speech; speaking of the obedience of wives towards their husbands, Vxores subditae estote proprijs viris, sicuti decet in Domino: wives be subject unto your own Col. 3. husbands, as it behoveth you in the Lord And yet you will not say that the government of the husband over his wife is only spiritual. And therefore howsoever you ally out the matter, with saying that S. Paul here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ascribeth this unto the ecclesiastical governors, yet it will not serve your turn, for he ascribeth it also to those that be civil. The ecclesiastical governors have all their whole care set upon that only which pertaineth to the life to come: True it is, and to the same end ten eth the civil government which they do exercise, as I have told you before. Chap. 1. the. 9 Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 230. Sect. 4. In the. 1. Tim. 5. verse. 2. he willeth Timothy to exhort the elder women as mothers, the younger as sisters: whereupon you conclude thus: Elder women must be exhorted as mothers, the younger as sisters, with all pureness: Ergo, the government of the church must be spiritual. T. C. Pag. 167. Lin. 5. And to this end also is alleged by the Admonition the place of Tim. wherein the Apostle teacheth 1. Tim. 5. part of the ecclesiastical discipline, which the minister may use, to consist in reprehensions and rebukes, which must be tempered according as the estate and age of every one doth require. Their meaning is not (as M. Doctor doth untruly surmise) to shut out the civil Magistrate, or to debar him of punishing the wicked, but that it appertaineth not unto the ministers to deal that ways, whose correction of faults lieth partly in reprehensions and admonitions, which he speaketh of there, partly in excommunication, whereof is spoken before. Io. Whitgifte. But how aptly lie this place is alleged to this end, every child may understand. For what a collection call you this. S. Paul willeth Tim, to exhort the elder women as mothers, the younger as sisters, therefore the regiment of the Church is only spiritual, & an ecclesiastical person may not intermeddle with any kind of civil affairs? one Christian man must exhort an other, & reprove an other also, as occasion requireth, therefore he may not execute any civil office: the reason is all one. Your defence of this place is very slender, and you might with as much credit to them have passed it over, as you have done divers other. Chap. 1. the. 10. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 230. Sect. 2. In the place to the Ephes. the Apostle saith, that God hath appointed Christ to be the head of the Church, which is his body, even the fullness of him that filleth all in all things. Here we learn that Christ Spiritual go vernment taketh not away civil Magistracy. is the head of the Church: but how proves this that the government of the Church is only spiritual? Will you hereby take away civil Magistrates, and other governors that God hath placed in his Church? It is subtly done of you to quote the places only, and not to apply them, nor to conclude of them: for surely if you had laid down the words, and applied them to your purpose, not wise and learned only, but very children would have laughed you to scorn. T. C. Pag. 167. Lin. 12. Further touching the place of the Ephes. for so much as our saviour Christ as he is head of his Church, is the spiritual governor thereof, it is meet that their government which are appointed underneath him, as he is head, should be likewise spiritual, as his is. For as for the civil 1. Cor. 11. Magistrate, although he be appointed of christ (as he is God) in which respect there is none above Christ, yet he is not appointed of him, in respect that he is head of the Church, in regard whereof God is above Christ, and as the Apostle saith, the head of him. Io. Whitgifte. Christ is the head of the Church, and spiritually governeth the same in the conscience, The government of the Church is not only spiritual but because it hath also an outward and visible form, therefore it requireth an outward and visible government, which Christ doth execute aswell by the civil Magistrate, as he doth by the ecclesiastical minister, and therefore the government of the Church, in the respect of the external and visible form of it, is not only spiritual. Christ governeth by himself spiritually only, and by his ministers both spiritually and externally, and therefore your reason is nothing. But why do you not answer in this place, to that which I charge them with, touching the civil T. C. content to pass y the ab dging of civil autho. . Magistrate? In the former place where I spoke no such thing, you said that I untruly surmised, that they shut out the civil Magistrate from punishing the wicked: But here when I charge them, that by their application of this place, they take away civil Magistrates and other governors, that God hath placed in his Church, you answer not one word. In deed both you and they by your false interpretations of this and such like places, do altogether seclude the civil Magistrate, from any government of the Church, and in effect say with the Papists, that he doth govern as he is man, and not as he is a Christian, and that he governeth men in that they be men, and not in that they be Christian men: which may well be spoken of the Turk, having Christians subject under him: but it is wickedness to think it of a Christian Magistrate, and it doth not much differ from the opinion of the Anabaptistes. Chap. 1. the. 11. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 230. Sect. 5. 6. & Pag. 231. Sect. 1 In the. 10. Hebr. verse. 30. it is thus written: For we know him that hath said, vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense saith the Lord. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. Vengeance belongeth to God, and he shall judge his people: Ergo, the government of the Church must be spiritual. Fond arguments, and to no purpose. I am ashamed of these reasons, and so will you be likewise, if you be not past shame. If you mean that the government of the Church is spiritual, because God by his spirit, gifts, and ministery of his word doth govern it, you say truly, although these places be unaptly alleged: but if you mean, that therefore there need no civil Magistrates, no civil and politic laws, no external discipline, no outward ceremonies and orders, you are greatly deceived, and join with the Anabaptistes, whose error in that point is sufficiently by divers learned men confuted. And therefore I will not as yet intermeddle therewith, until I understand further of your meaning. Io. Whitgifte. This is left unanswered. ¶ The reasons which T. C. useth against civil offices in ecclesiastical people, examined. Chap. 2. the first Division. T. C. Pag. 167. Sect. 1 Now that I have showed that the places quoted by the Admonition, are for the most part to the purpose of that they be quoted for, I will add a reason or two to this purpose, before I come to answer to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor. Here I must desire the Reader to remember (which I said before, when I spoke against non residency) the multitude & difficulty of those things which are required of the minister of the word of God. And withal I will leave to the consideration of every one, the great infirmity and weakness which is in men, both the which considerations set together, it will easily appear how unmeet a thing it is, that the minister should have any other charge laid upon him, seeing that it being so weighty an office, as will require all the gifts he hath, be they never so great, it must needs fall out, that so much as he doth man other calling, so much he leaveth undone in this. Io. Whitgifte. The Reader may easily judge how fitly they were alleged, in that they needed your commentary to teach the application of them, which otherwise would have asked some cunning to make them to serve the turn. But as the places be unfitly quoted by them, so are they in deed as slenderly defended by you: as may appear in your Replies, and my Answers. Your first argument why ecclesiastical people may not exercise civil offices is this: The multitude and difficulty of those things which are required of the minister, are such, and the weakness and infirmity of man so great, that the minister can not execute any other offices. etc. This had some likelihood in it, if the minister should execute any office contrary or repugnant to his ecclesiastical function. But seeing I have before declared that such civil offices as be now committed to Bishops, and other of the Clergy, be necessary helps to their other callings, and most profitable for the good and quiet government of the Church, this argument of itself falls to the ground. But why may you not as well reason thus? the multitude and greatness of those things that are required of a Christian, be such, and the infirmity and frailty of man so great, that if he did nothing but give himself to spiritual meditation, and never meddle with worldly affairs, he were not able to do his full duty: therefore no Christian man may practise any such thing, or meddle in worldly and civil matters. This argument is the root of Anabaptisme. Chap. 2. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 167. in the midst. And what the hand of man is able to reach herein, it is to be considered in the Apostles, whom if the office of the ministery did so wholly occupy and set a work, that they could admit no other charge with it, yea and were fain to cast of that which they had, it is clear that none of those which live now can beside that function, admit any other public calling. The story is known in the Acts, that the Apostles even during the tune that they kept together at jerusalem, Act. 6. and taught the Church there, were fain, that they might the better attend unto preaching and praying (by which two things S. Luke summarily setteth forth the office of the ministery) to give over the charge of providing for the poor unto others, because they were not able to do both. Now for so much as the Apostles endued with such gifts as none have been since, or shall be hereafter, could not discharge together with the office of the minister that also of the Deacon, how should any man be found, that together with that office, can discharge the office of a civil Magistrate? And if the Apostles would not have the office of a Deacon, which was ecclesiastical, and therefore of the same kind with the ministery joined unto it, how much less will they suffer that the ministery should be joined with a civil office, and therefore of an other kind? For reason teacheth that there is an easier mingling of those which are of one kind, than of those which are of divers kinds. Io. Whitgifte. It is evident that the Apostles, from the ascension of Christ into heaven until Why the Apo stles left of the Deaconship. Caluine. this time, did execute both the office of the Apostles, and the office of Deacons also. Whereby it is manifest that these offices may at sometimes meet together in one, and the self same person. And M. Caluine upon the. 6. of the Acts saith: That they did not altogether cast off this care for the poor, sed levationem quaesijsse ut suo muneri intenti esse possent, but that they sought an easing thereof, that they might be intentive unto their office. The causes therefore that moved the Apostles to leave off from executing the one, that is, the Deaconship, is to be considered. One cause was, the great increase of the number of Christians, which was now grown to such a multitude, that the Apostles could not well both make provision for the poor, and give themselves also both to preaching and praying. another cause was the murmuring and grudging of the Grecians, who thought that the Apostles had more regard to provide for their own country men the jews, than for the Erecians being strangers unto them. Wherefore the Apostles being willing to eschew this grudging and repining, did for avoiding the suspicion of partiality, will the whole multitude to choose them Deacons: and both those causes be expressed in the beginning of the. 6. hapter of the Acts. The third cause was, for that the Apostles knew, that they should shortly be dispersed, and that their office was to go from place to place, to plant Churches, and preach the Gospel, so that they could not now execute the office of Deacons, as they did whilst they remained together. This being so (as it can not be denied) there can be no likely argument gathered of this place, that ecclesiastical people may not have some kind of civil functions. And if a man well consider how busy and troublesome an office the Deaconship was at that time (the Church being in persecution, and the number of poor great) he shall easily perceive, that there is no comparison betwixt the troublesomeness of that office then, and the civil offices now committed to ecclesiastical people, which be so far from hindering their ecclesiastical functions, that they work the clean contrary effect. And yet it is certain, that the Apostle S. Paul, and Titus, with Luke, or as some think, Barnabas, did together with the office of preaching, make collections for the poor. 2. Corinth. 8. Chap. 2. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 167. somewhat towards the end. Again, how can we justly reprove the Papists for the use of both the swords, spiritual an material, when as we are found in the same fault ourselves? And surely howsoever long custom hath caused it to seem, yet in deed it is a very great and untolerable confusion, which may be the easilyer understanded, if so be we set before our eyes, how uncomely and disordered it is, in the like, or rather in the very same case. For let us imaginethe Majesty's or or Baylive of a town, or the King or Emperor of the land, to come into the pulpit and make a sermon, afterward to minister the sacraments, and from the Church to go with the sceptre in his hand unto the place of judgement: who would not be amazed to see this, and wonder at it, as at a s aunge and monstrous light? assuredly the self same deformity it is, when as the minister of the word is made a justice of peace, of Quorum, a Commissioner, an Earl, or any such like, to whom the judgement of matters pertaining to the court of the civil Magistrate is committed, especially seeing there are God be raised) of the Nobility and Gentry of this realm, that are able to discharge these offices much better, than those ecclesiastical people to whom they are committed. Io. Whitgifte. The Bishop of Rome doth challenge unto himself the whole power and authority The civil jurisdiction that the Pope aimeth, not like to that in use in this church of the civil Magistrate, and that (as he saith) by the word of God. He baasteth that temporal Princes have their authority from him: and that it is in his power both to displace and place them. This we utterly and most justly condemn: but that jurisdiction civil that we allow in ecclesiastical people, is not the whole power of the civil Magistrate, but only so much as may help to the good government of the Church, and the suppression of vice. Neither do we challenge it as due, but receive it from the civil Magistrate as convenient, and execute it by his authority, not by our own. This you could not but understand, if you had not been disposed to qua ill. You say, 'tis an untolerable confusion. etc. but this is a Popish surmise, and the example used craftily to verify the same: for the Papists do imagine (or at the 〈◊〉 do maliciously spread abroad) that by giving to the Prince chief authority in ecclesiastical matters, we also give unto her power to minister the sacraments, and to preach the word: In like manner you would insinuate unto the Reader, that by allowing civil functions in ecclesiastical people, we also allow them to execute all kind of civil functions: which is spoken of you as well to deface the authority of the civil Magistrate in matters ecclesiastical, as it is to improve civil offices in ecclesiastical people. It is neither confusion, nor uncomeliness to come from the pulpit, and administration of the Sacraments, to the punishment and correction of vice and wickedness. Neither is it any monstrous or strange sight, for an ecclesiastical person to execute that kind of discipline against offenders, which by lawful authority is established in the Church, whether it be by being justice of peace and Quorum, or a Comm issioner, or any other such like office and function. But remember I pray you what you said before in the treatise of Seniors: you T. C. must 〈◊〉. ther di sent from Beza, or grant the controversy. Tract. 17. cap. divis. there set it down that they are ecclesiastical people: and yet M. Beza (as I have there declared) saith that noble men and Princes may be of the 〈◊〉, wherefore either may civil and ecclesiastical offices meet together in eccles icall people (which you deny) or else can not noble men and Princes be of your Signiory, as M. Beza affirmeth: or if they be of your 〈◊〉, they must cast off their Baronries, Earldoms, and civil dominions (which I am sure they will not) or else to conclude, your assertion is strange, and your saint lorie con used. I doubt not but that many of the Nobility and Gen rye of this Realm are more fit for these things, than ecclesiastical men are: neither can I be persuaded, but that they consider how expedient it is notwithstanding, that such functions be committed to some of the clergy: and I am well assured that they can not but easily espy the deformity & confusion that your platform would bring to this Monarchy. Chap. 2. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 168. Lin. 2. And if so be that there fall out any question at any time which is to be decided by the word of God, and wherein the advise of the minister is needful, there the ministers help may and Esra. 9 aught to be required. For thereof we have not only an example in (*) This place maketh against yourself. Esra, where the Princes Deut. 19 in a matter of difficulty, came and asked the counsel of Esra, but we have a plain commandment in Moses by the Lord, who commanded that the cause of perjury should be herded before the Lord in the Sanctuary, at the hearing whereof the high Priest should be present, by which commandment the Lord doth not by bringing this cause into the Sanctuar e declare, that the judgement thereof did appertain unto the ecclesiastical court, but because it being a matter which touched the glory of God very expressly, he would have the Princes which were judges there, to be the nearer touched, and the deepelyer affected with the glory of God, whereof they sau e the sacrament before their eyes, neither is the high Priest commanded to be present to this end▪ that he should sit as judge of that matter, but that he might dissolve the difficulties, if any rose of the understanding of the law, and that he might prick forward, and stir up by admonition▪ the princes to whom the judgement appertained, if so be he should see them cold and slack to revenge the injuried done unto the Lord. Which thing may the better appear, in that the handling of the matter, is there appointed, not unto the priests, but unto the judges or princes only, and so likewise of matrimony and divorce, although the judgement thereof appertain unto the civil Magistrate, yet the minister, if there be any difficulty in knowing when it is a lawful contract, and when the divorce is lawful, may and aught to be consulted with. Thus may the common wealth and Church enjoy both the wisdom and searning which is in the minister, & things may be done in that order which God hath appointed, without such confounding and jumbling of offices and jurisdictions together. Io. Whitgifte. You would not have a minister to enjoy any civil office, and yet would you not A greater inrisdiction sought in disproving the less. have the civil Magistrate to determine any thing in matters of weight, without the advise and counsel of the minister, that is, the Minister must prescribe unto the civil Magistrate what he should do in all weighty and doubtful cau. es. This is your drift in this place, so far as I can gather: else I know not to what purpose you should spend so many words, for they conclude nothing against the cause, but with it rather. In deed I have herded say, that in some Churches which some of you have go about to reform, the minister was all in all, and in all affairs his advise and consent was had, else nothing could be done. Which authority surely passeth all the civil turisdiction, that I know any man hath or desireth in this Church. But you may intermeddle in the offices of Majors, Baylives, justices of peace, & in deed have an oar in every man's boat, and yet nothing hinder your Pastoral office: such is the excellency of your wit and gifts above other men, that the same thing may be lawful in you, a little portion whereof may not be permitted to others. You make a fair gloss upon the. 19 of Deuteronomie: but how aptly, the Reader may consider if he mark the place well: the words of the text be these: If a false Deut. 19 witness rise up against a man to accuse him of trespass, than both the men that strive together shall stand before the Lord, even before the Priests and the judges which shall be in those days, and the judges shall make diligent inquisition. etc. First here is no word of the Sanctuary, for this that is said (before the Lord) M. Calvin in his harmony doth interpret on this sort: Coram lebova. i coram sacerdotibus & judicibus qui fuerunt in diebus illis: Before jehova, that is, before the Priests and judges which were in those days. And in deed God is said to be there present, where his true ministers are assembled: wherefore your descanting of the Sanctuary▪ is without any ground. Moreover it doth not appear, by any thing in this place, but that the Priest had as much to do in the matter, as the judge had: wherefore this place can not serve your turae in any respect. The place in the. 9 of Esoras maketh altogether against you: for the rulers came The replier overthroweth his own cause. to complain unto Esoras, that the people had married with the Gentiles, and Esdras took upon him as one having authority, to reform it, and to separate them from their wives, as it evidently appeareth in the tenth chapter, and. 4. and. 5. verse. For certain of them came unto Esoras, and spoke unto him in this manner: Arise, for the matter belongeth unto thee. etc. It appeareth that you have very small care what you allege, so it may seem to be something. You add in the end, and say: and so likewise of matrimony and divorce. etc. But the Reader must take heed that he imagine not this assertion of yours, to be contained in any of these two places quoted by you. It is but your own bore affirmation, you allege no authority for it. Chap. 2. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 168. in the midst▪ For although Aristotle's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Plato's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, instruments serving to two purposes, be lawful in offices of the common wealth, where things are more free, and left in greater liberty to be ordered at the judgement and advise of men, especially considering that upon the diversity of the forms of common wealths, variety of regiment may spring, yet in the Church of God, where things are brought to a strayghter rule, & which is but one & uniform▪ the same may not be suffered. And yet even those common wealth Philosophers, which do licence upon occasion, that two offices may meet in one man, hold that it is best, and convenientest, that every one should have a particular charge. For Aristotle saith, it is most agreeable to nature, that Not Hercules himself against two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, one instrument to one use. And Plato useth the proverb, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against those which will take upon them divers vocations, and not content themselves with one, and they make the meeting of many functions in one man, to be a remedy only in extreme need, and poverty of able men. Io. Whitgifte. These be but words only containing no sound proofs, and require but a short answer, which is, that these civil and ecclesiastical offices, which we join together in one person, tend to one and the same end, and serve for the same purpose, that is, the quiet and good government of the Church, and the suppression of Tract. 17. cap. vit. vice and sin. I have proved before, that the external form and kind of government in the Church is not one and uniform (as you here affirm) but variable, according to place, person, and time. divers offices may be committed to one man in a common wealth, though there be more fit for the same, except you will make the state popular, and restrain the Prince from the liberty of bestowing such offices upon such as she thinketh most meet for them, which, if it be well marked, is part of your drift. Belike you or some of your friends, lack offices, and therefore you would gladly have a new distribution. Chap. 2. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 168. somewhat past the midst And although both be unlawful, yet as the case standeth in our realm, it is more tolerable that the civil Magistrate should do the office of a minister, than that the minister should intermeddle with the function of the Magistrate. For when the accounts shall be cast, it will fall out, that there are more sufficient and able men to serve in the common wealth of this realm, than in the Church, and greater want in the one, than in the other. Io. Whitgifte. This reason of yours if it were true doth but accuse the Prince and her Council of lack of due consideration of the state of this Realm: for this is a reason of Policy, and not of Divinity. Undoubtedly you are set up in the chair of controlment, and your gifts are so great, that you dare presume to prescribe both new Divinity, and new Policy. I do nothing doubt but that the state of this common wealth is better known and considered, than that there shall need any of your advertisements for the government of it: and therefore I pass over these words of yours, as void of reason, and full of presumption, and such, whereby of stomach only you seek to discredit and to disable the state of the Church, and ecclesiastical people, against whom you have conceived displeasure. Chap. 2. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 168. somewhat towards the end. And if beside this, both authority of the word of God, & light of reason, we will look unto the practice of the church many years after the time of the Apostles, we shall find that the church hath been very careful from tune to time, that this order should be kept, that the ministers should not entangle themselves with any thing beside their ministery, and those things which the word of God doth necessarily put upon them, lest the strength of their mind, and of their body, being distracted unto many things, they should be the less able to accomplish their ministery unto the full. Which may also partly appear by that which I have alleged out of Cyprian, which will not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament. And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed unto the Apostles, it is enjoined that they should not entangle themselves with worldly offices, but attend upon their ecclesiastical affairs. Io. Whitgifte. If you compare the state of the Church before the time of Christian Kings, with the state of it under Christian Kings, you make an unequal comparison. For how could ecclesiastical people enjoy any civil function, when there was no civil Magistrate christian to commit the same unto them? How could by this means the government of the Church be thought to be helped by the Civil Magistrate, when as it had no greater enemies than civil Magistrates, who sought by all means to suppress and destroy it? but now to your reasons. To yprians authority I have answered before. The Canons of the Apostles have now been alleged by you at the lest. 4. or. 5. times, and yet is not their credit and authority so firm. But that Canon means only such worldly causes as be impediments to their vocation: and I have told you often that civil functions be necessary helps, to the doing and full accomplishing of their ecclesiastical office. I have expressed in my Answer to the Admonition, what worldly affairs a minister of the word may not entangle himself with. Chap. second the. 8. division. T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. ult. Further in the (*) council of Chalcedon it was decreed, that, none of the clerk & clergy Tom. 1. can. 3. (as it termeth them) should receive any charge of those which are under age, unless they were such as the laws did necessarily cast upon him, which it calleth inexcusable charges, meaning by all likelihood the wardship of his brother's children, or some such thing. Where is also declared the cause of that decree to have been, for that there were certain ministers which were Stewards to noble men. And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same council it is decreed, that none of the clergy should either go to warfare as soldiers or captains, or should receive any secular honours, and if they did, they should be excommunicated, or accursed. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the third Canon be these: Relation is made unto this holy Synod, Con. Calced. can. 3. that certain amongst the clergy for filthy lucers sake higher other men's possessions, & take upon them the causes of secular business, and through slothfulness separate themselves from divine functions, and run to the houses of secular people, & for covetousness take upon them the government of their substance: therefore this holy universal & great Synod hath decreed, that none of these hereafter, that is, Bishop, or Clerk, or Monk, shall higher possessions, or intermeddle with secular possessions, except those that by law are driven to take the tuition and care of such as be under age: or those to whom the Bishop of the City hath committed the government of ecclesiastical things, and of Orphans and widows, which are without succour, or of such people which need the help of the Church for the fear of God. etc. This Canon containeth nothing contrary to my assertion, the words of the Canon be plain: I shall not need to use any exposition of it. Only I would have the Reader mark the weight of your argument, which is this. The Council of Chalcedon sayeth, that Clerks may not for filthy lucre's sake hire other men's possessions, or take upon them for covetousness sake, the government of other men's possessions, etc. therefore there may be no civil office committed unto them. I will ask no better commentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alleged, or any other such like, than this very Canon of the Council of Chalcedon. To what purpose do you allege the. 7. Canon of that Council? did you ever hear me say that I would have a minister to be a Soldier or a captain in war? or enjoy any such secular honour or offices? wherefore you lack probation when you are constrained to use this. ¶ The reasons used in the Answer justified. Chap. 3. the. 1. Division. T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. & Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctor's arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder. And first he saith ministers of the word may not occupy themselves in worldly business, as to be merchants, husbandmen, crafts men, and such like, but they may exercise civil offices. Where first of all I perceive, M. Doctor is of this mind, that the order of God is not to be broken for small gain, or when a man must take great toil of the body to break it: but if it may be broken with getting of honour, and doing of those things which may be done without toil, and with great commendation, than it is lawful to break it. In deed so the Poet (but in the person of an unjust and ambitious man) said, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that is. If a man must do uniustiy, he must do it to bear rule. Secondarily, I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindered from his ministery, by a pair of iron fetters, but if he can get a pair of golden fetters, he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministery committed unto him. For unless these should be the causes which should move him to take the one, and refuse the other, verily I see none. Io. Whitgifte. This is to deride, & not to answer. M Bucer writing upon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer. rehearsing such worldly business as withdraw the minister from his function and therefore be not meet for him to exercise, saith thus: Such business, as warfare, market affairs, merchandise, huckster's craft, the oversight of Inns, Taverns, and baths: to exercise unliberall crafts, as to dig metals and stones, to burn lime, to carry sand, to be schavengers', and such like. You have not yet proved that God's order is broken, if the civil offices which I speak of be committed to Ecclesiastical people. Your jesting taunts I leave to those that profess that cunning. Chap. 3. the. 2. Division. T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he saith it is a help, and maintaineth religion, in deed that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papists which M. Calvin confuteth in his institution. And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquity, by corporal punishments and by civil corrections, yet it doth no more follow that that should be done by the ministers, than it followeth that for that preaching and ministering the Sacraments, and excommunication are good and necessary, therefore the same is fit to be executed by the civil magistrate. I grant the ministers have also to punish vice, for as the civil magistrates punish lighter faults with some penalty of money or loss of member: so the church and the minister especially with the church, hath to punish faults by reprehensions and rebukes. And as the civil magistrate punisheth greater faults by death: so the minister with other which have interest, hath with the sword of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious, and to cut them from the church, as the other doth from the common wealth. And if it be a help to the ministers office, that he should meddle with civil punishments, why should it not be a help unto the Magistrate's office that he should excommunicate and do other things pertaining to the Ecclesiastical discipline? Io. Whitgifte. In what words doth M. Caluine confute it, or by what reason? you cut of the matter very short: in that book and chapped. of his Instit. which you have quoted in the margin, there is no such reason either alleged or confuted. Only in the. 9 Section, he speaketh against the temporal dominion of the Popish Bishops, which derive their excessive power not from the civil Magistrate, but fcon the Pope, cloaking it with this pretence, that it is an ornament and beauty to the kingdom of Christ: which is far from any thing alleged by me, why it is convenient that our Bishops have civil authority committed unto them. I would gladly hear a reason either of the Scripture, or any other authentical It is not so lawful for the Prince to preach, etc. as for a minister to use corporal punishment. writer, why it should be as lawful for a civil Magistrate to preach, minister the Sacraments, and excommunicate, as for the Ecclesiastical minister to use corporal punishment: it was lawful for Samuel to kill Agag, being the office of Saul: but it was not lawful for Saul to offer up sacrifices, that being the office of Samuel. The office and function of a minister is not in his own power to commit to whom he list: but the office of the civil Magistrate may be committed to whom soever it shall 1. Sam. 15. please him best to like of, and to think most fit for government. 1. Sam. 3. True it is that excommunication is an Ecclesiastical censure which the minister Excommunication not the only punishment used in the Church. Gualther. may exercise if the state of the Church will bear it (for reprehension is a discipline lawful for every Christian to use) but it is not the only censure: for the civil magistrate may appoint other, as shall be to the state of the Church most convenient. You know what M. Gualther sayeth. 1. Cor. 5. As the Roman Bishops upon this place and such like, have grounded their excommunication, which is the most effectual instrument of their tyranny, whereby they have cruelly vexed not only private men, but also Kings and Emperors, and have been the causes of civil wars and sedition: even so the Anabaptists whilst they persuade themselves, that there can be no discipline without excommunication, they trouble the churches every where, and make themselves laughing stocks to all the world, etc. Let every church follow that kind of discipline which is most meet for the country wherein they live, and which may be most commodious in respect of time and place: and let no man here rashly prescribe unto an other, or seek to bind all men to one and the same form. Of old time there hath been other kind of punishments, than either reprehensions or excommunication, as it may appear even in that Canon attributed to the Apostles which you have before rehearsed: where the punishment appointed, is deprivation, as it is also in the most of the other Canons, and in diverse other counsels. You say that if it be a help to the ministers office, that he should meddle with the civil punishments: why should it not be a help to the magistrates office, that he should excommunicate, etc. The answer is soon made. The Magistrate may do that by corporal punishment that the minister can not do by Ecclesiastical discipline: neither is there any man so desperate, whom the magistrate by his authority may not bridle, but such is the time now that few regard the greatest censures of the Church. Chap. 3. the. 3. Division. T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth they may not be husband men, crafts men. etc. and yet may have civil offices, I think far otherwise, that although neither be lawful, yet the one were more tolerable than the other. For seeing after the ministery of the word there is no calling under the sun weightier, & which requireth greater exercise of the mind, than the office-of the magistrate, it is against all reason to lay this heavy burden upon a man, that is already laden, and hath as much as he is able to bear. It were more equal if they will needs add unto the weight of this burden, to say some lighter charge of exercising a handy craft, than to break his back with the charge of a civil Magistrate. Io. Whitgifte. These wdrldly affairs of husbandry, occupations, etc. must needs withdraw him from his book & so make him more unapt to do his duty: and they be not at all incident to his office, nor meet for his calling: but the Civil offices, that I speak of be both meet for his calling, pertaining to discipline, and helps to his office & function, as I have said: wherefore they be so far from breaking his back, that they make the rest of his burden a great deal the easier. Chap. 3. the. 4. Division. T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 3 And whereas in the policy of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the Gospel to join these together which was also the policy of the Idolaters as I have before declared) in the wisdom of God it hath seemed far otherwise, which I doubt not did therefore separate the ministery from this pomp, which is commendable in the civil magistrate. lest the efficacy and power of the simplicity of the word of God and of the ministery should be obscured, whilst men would attribute the conversion of souls unto the gospel (due unto the word and to the spirit of God) to these glorious shows. And lest whilst the Minister have the word in one hand, and the swordem the other, men should not be able to judge so well in their consciences▪ of the mighty operation of the word of God in them. For they might doubt with themselves whether these are and outward show of the minister, carried some stroke with them in believing the word. Io. Whitgifte. One of your reasons contained in this place, in effect is this. If ministers should enjoy civil functions, men would attribute the conversion of souls unto these shows: but that aught they not to do: therefore. etc. I deny your Mayor as a fond and vain imagination. another reason you frame on this sort: If the minister have both civil and Ecclesiastical power▪ men should not be able to judge in their consciences of the mighty operation of the word of God in them: for they might doubt whether the fear of the outward show of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiastical. some stroke with them, etc. This is as vain an imagination as is the other: and they both may as aptly be applied against the authority of the civil Magistrate, as against the civil jurisdiction of the minister: yea in deed they serve to the overthrow of all kind of civil punishment. For if the Magistrate make sharp laws for coming to the Church, hearing the word of God, contemning religion, and such like, men that by such means are driven to hear the word of God. etc. & so at the length converted, may doubt whether the word hath wrought this in them or the fear of outward punishment. Do you not mark how he still smiteth at the Magistrate? Percy te you not how near he approacheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes, who would have no kind of discipline in the Church but only excommunication? God useth corporal punishment as a means to salvation. But to Answer you briefly, God useth corporal punishments as a means to drive▪ even the elect to the hearing of the word of God, & to honesty of life. He useth it also to bridle the wicked, that by their examples other men might learn to beware, and that they themselves also may be kept in order. And no man that is truly converted by the preaching of the word, can doubt but that God by the working of his spirit, through the ministery of his word, hath wrought that good in him, though by external means (as fear of punishment, and such like) he was first as it were enforced to hear the word, and to keep himself in order. In deed if these reasons of yours were of any force, the Magistrate might put up his sword, especially in Ecclesiastical matters, and so might the minister lay aside his authority also, lest any thing be ascribed there unto Your glance (that this was also the policy of the Idolaters) though you have no where proved it, yet have I answered it before. Chap. 3. the. 5. Division. T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. ult. But M. Doctor saith that civil offices are not to be counted worldly affairs, but heavenly and spiritual▪ it is so: and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiastical offices. they may be called secular offices, for so much as they together with the care of religion, procure and provide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously live here, where the Ecclesiastical offices are immediately and only bent to procure the glory of God and the salvation of men, and in that signification of heavenly and spiritual which you take, merchandise, husbandry, and the handycrafte be heavenly, and spiritual, although not in the same degree. All lawful callings came from God, and return to him again, that is, he is both author of them and they aught to be referred to his glory, so that if the minister may exercise all things which be heavenly and spiritual, you may as well bring him down to the plough, as promote him to the court. Io. Whitgifte. I call them Ecclesiastical, because they pertain to the inward man, to the The cluill jurisdiction now used is in some respect ecclesiastical. reformation of manners, to the punishment of sin, to the maintenance of Religion, to the quietness of the Church, and good order in the same: so do not all civil offices, much less, husbandry, merchandise, handycraftes, going to the plough and such like, which only pertain to the body and to this life, not being referred to the ends, that I have before named. Wherefore here your wits failed you, and I look for a better Answer. Chap. 3. the. 6. Division. T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor saith that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiastical, because it handleth Ecclesiastical causes, I marvel that he is so ignorant, that he can not put a difference between giving iudiciail sentences, and appointing bodily punishments, (which are mere civil) and between the understanding the truth of every such cause according as the word of God defineth of it: which is a thing common as well unto the magistrate as unto the minister, & wherein the minister because he aught to be most ready, aught (if need be) consulted with. Io. Whitgifte. Surely I think you scarce understand yourself: for if the causes be Ecclesiastical, why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appointed unto them be executed by Ecclesiastical people, having authority from the Prince by commission so to do: and if the Ecclesiastical person may give sentence and judgement in these Ecclesiastical causes, why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same? I do not mean he should be the jailor, or tormentor himself, but to judge the person offending worthy of this or that kind of punishment, and to give sentence of the crime that he hath committed, & to determine of the cause that is called into judgement. Chap. 3. the. 7. Division. T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1 An other of M. Doctor's reasons is, that as kings do serve Christ by making laws for him, so Bishops do serve Christ by executing laws for him: as though it pertained not unto the Magistrates to execute laws as well as to make them, and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law, because by executing them he doth cause the laws after a fashion to speak. This is to divide the stake of the magistrate, between him and the Bishop, yea to give the Bishop the best part of it. For we know that with us, the people be at making of the laws, which may not meddle with the execution of them. And if M. Doctor say, that he means not hereby, to shut the Prince from executing the laws, then as his similitude (when it is at the best) proveth nothing: so by this means it halts down right, and is no similitude. Io. Whitgifte. The Prince executeth his laws by himself, & he also executeth them by other to whom he hath given that authority for the fuller and better execution of them: in this number are the Bishops, for the authority they have in such matters, they have from the Prince: and therefore their executing of it is not to divide stake with the civil Magistrate, but to do good service both to God and the Magistrate. Chap. 3. the. 8. Division. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuel, were they not both Priests Samuel priest & judge. and judges? what office did the Prophet Elias execute, when he killed the false prophets of Baal. 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipped the buyers and sellers out of the temple? what office did Paul commit to Timothy, when he said adversùs Presbyterum, & c? I would not have a minister to be a warrior, or a farmer, or a merchant, or have any such like osfice, which consists in gain or bodily labour only. But why he may not have such an office as is profitable to increase godliness, and punish ungodliness, I hear as yet no reason. As for the office of an high commissioner, it is Ecclesiastical, for they have to do only in causes Ecclesiastical. T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1 And for Elye and Samuel, they are extraordinary examples, which may thereby appear, for that both these offices first meeting in Melchisedech, and afterward in Moses, were by the commandment of God severed, when as the Lord took from Moses (being so wise and godly a man) the Priesthood and gave it to Aaron, and to his successors. And so, for so much as when the Lord would polished his church & make it famous, & renowneded in the world he gave this order: it appeareth that he would have this to be a perpetual rule unto his church. And by so much it is the clearer, for that the Lord did not tarry until Moses death, but took the priesthood away from Moses, which was a man as able to execute both, as either Elye or Samuel. Io. Whitgifte. It is not certain whether Moses were ever Priest or no: for where it is said It is doubtful whether Moses were priest. in the. 99 Bsalme. Moses & Aaron in sacerdotibus eius, the Hebrew word is doubtful and signifieth as well a Prince, as a Priest: & therefore upon this place it cannot necessarily be concluded, that Moses was a Priest. Moreover at that time the chief rulers & men of greatest authority were called Priests: but you never red that Moses offered up any sacrifices for sin, which was the proper office of the Priest: Neither can you tell us where he was ever consecrated Priest. In deed Harding against the Apology doth allege this example at Moses, being as he sayeth both a civil Magistrate and a Priest, to prove that the Pope may be both King and Priest. But be it as you say, that these two offices were distinguished in Moses & Aaron, & that the Priest's office which consists in offering oblations & sacrifices was taken from him, yet did he keep still his former authority in governing the church, and in prescribing to Aaron what he should do, even in matters pertaining to the worship of God: so that these two offices (I mean civil and Ecclesiastical) are not so distinct, but that they may both aptly & well meet & join together. Further more Civil and ecclesiastical offices met in one. you know that howsoever the priesthood & civil Magistracy were divided in Moses and Aaron, yet met they both together again not only in Elye & Samuel, but in Esras, Nehemias, Mattathias and some other, which examples prove that upon occasion these offices may meet together in one Person, & they quite overthrow your allegation of Moses. Chap. 3. the. 9 Division. T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1 And this may be also easily seen, for that in a manner always, where there was any good & stayed estate of the church, these offices were ministered by several people, and then met and were mingled, when the estates were very ruinous and miserable. A d if this be a good reason to prove that ministers may exercise civil offices, it is as good a reason to prove that princes may preach, and minister the Sacraments. For if the ministers may exercise civil offices, because Elye & Samuel (being ministers) did so: the Princes and judges may preach the word and minister the Sacraments because Elye and Samuel (being Princes and judges) did so. And so we see how M. Doctor going about to descend one confusion, bringeth in an other. Io. Whitgifte. Here you confess that which hitherto in your whole book you have denied, and T. C. confesseth the ground of all these controversies. that which is in deed the whole ground of the chief matters in controversy, that is, that the government of the Church may be diverse according to the diversity of the time and state of the same: as in the time of persecution it may be otherwise governed than in time of peace, otherwise when the state is established, than when it is ruinous and in decay, for say you: In a manner always where there was any good and stayed estate of the church these offices were ministered by several people, and then met and were mingled, when the estates were very ruinous. Thus have you granted of your own accord, that which hitherto you have so stiffly and stoutly denied: such is the might & force of the truth. And yet the church was in good state all Sainuels' time, and the most part of Elyes also, for any thing that I can read to the contrary. I brought in those examples to prove that these offices have met together, and The state of the controverune altered by the Replier. therefore be not so divers as you would make them. I do not use them to this end, that I would have a Priest to be a King, you know the state of our question is only whether Bishops may exercise those civil functions of justiceship of Peace, and such like, which the Prince committeth unto them or not, and not whether they may sit in the Prince's throne, and take her Sceptre out of her hand whether she will or not, as the Pope doth. And therefore whereas you saythat by these examples of Elye and Samuel, I may as well conclude that Princes may preach the word and minister the sacraments, as Priests and ministers execute congruential offices: I think you do not consider that these civil offices be but accidents to the priesthood, & therefore may well be removed, as they were from Samuel, when Saul was choose King: for Samuel kept his Priesthood though he lost his civil authority: but the Priesthood is not so to the civil magistrate, except he will be ordinarily and lawfully admitted thereunto. I thuike that there is no degree of dignity that maketh a man unmeet for the ministery, if he be thereunto lawfully called, and have other gifts meet for the same: wherefore as it followeth not that a minister, in the respect that he is a minister aught to have a civil office, but that he may have one if he be by the civil Magistrate thereunto appointed, so it doth not follow that a civil Magistrate aught to be a minister of the word, but that he may be if he be meet and thereunto ordinarily and lawfully called and admitted. The Priest may not take upon him the office of the civil Magistrate, unless he be called lawfully unto it: nor the civil Magistrate may not take upon him the office of a Priest, unless he be ordinarily thereunto admitted. And this is no confusion at all. Chap. 3. the. 10. Division. T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias kill the false Prophets, and our Saviour Christ's whipping out of the temple, it is strange that M. Doctor will allege them, as things to be followed, when he may as well teach, that we may call for fire from heaven, as Elias did, and being demanded answer nothing, as our Saviour did: as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary. And if these one or two examples be enough to break the order that God hath set, by this a man may prove that the ministers may be fishers, and tent makers, because Peter and Paul (being ministers) did fish and make tents. And truly these are not so extraordinary, and from the general rule as the other be. And it was permitted in a Council, that rather than a minister should have two benefices, he might labour with his hands to supply his want Tom. . 〈◊〉 Nic . 〈◊〉 1 withal. Io. Whitgifte. Yet by these examples, & especially by the examples of Christ, it may appear, that Ecclesiastical people have used corporal punishments, which you call civil. I know examples make no rule, and therefore all your arguments out of the scriptures, alleged before to prove that the election of ministers aught to be popular, receive the same answer that you give to me in this place: and yet examples if they be not against any commandment, or good order established, declare what hath been, and what upon the like occasions may be done, but not what of necessity aught to be done. If you can prove any order of God set down, that an Ecclesiastical person may by no means exercise any civil offices, I yield unto you: if you can not do it, then do I allege no examples tending to the breaking of any order that God hath set. I know not why the ministers of the Gospel may not do as Peter & Paul did upon the like occasion. And therefore your alleging of the corrupt Council of Nice (which not withstanding you have not 〈◊〉 alleged) is not necess ie. I have spoken of that Canon before, and therefore will not trouble the Reader with it now, being from this purpose. Chap. 3. the. 11. Division. T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Saint Paul willed Tim. that he should not receive an accusation against an elder, under two or three witnesses, he did commit nothing less, than any civil office unto him. And M. Doctor himself hath alleged it before, as a thing incident to the office of a Bishop: and therefore he doth forget himself marvelously now, that maketh this a civil office. And doth M. Doctor think that S. Paul made magistrates? Or is he of that judgement, that the Church in the time of persecution, may make civil officers? But it is true, that he that is once over the shoes, sticketh not to run over his boots. Io. Whitgifte. I alleged it before, to prove the superiority of Bishops over other ministers: The iur tion of Timothy in some respect civil. Now I do allege it to prove that the same bishops may exercise that jurisdiction which you call civil: for in that the judgement of such causes were committed unto him, it argueth his superiority: in that there is named accusers, and witnesses, it declareth a kind of evil jurisdiction, to the which those words do pertain. So that Timothy being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed unto him that kind of proceeding to judgement, that may be called civil. Chap. 3. the. 12. Division. Answer to the Admonition Page. 218. Sect. 1 It pleaseth you to say that it is against God's word for Bishops to have prisons, but your margin is very barren of proofs: for you have not quoted one place of scripture to prove it: only you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in, which is a very slender argument to prove them to be against the word of God. Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very straightly for their dissimulation. Surely far more grievously than if he had put them in prison, and yet their offence was not against any ordinary law made in the Church or common weal. But where read you that Eugenius did first invent them? T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. ult. And last of all to prove that bishops may have prisons, he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death, M. Doctor must understand that this was 〈◊〉 power, and was done by virtue of that function which saint Paul calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 1. Cor. 12. which is one of those functions that the Lord placeth in his Church for a tyme. But is this a good argument. Because Saint Peter punished with the word, therefore the minister may punish with the sword? And because Saint Peter did so once, therefore the Bishop may do so alway? And because Saint Peter did that which appertaineth to no civil magistrate▪ and which no civil magistrate, by any means may or can do, therefore the minister may do that which appertaineth unto the Civil magistrate? For if there had been a civil magistrate, the same could not have punished this fault of dissimulation which was not known, nor declared itself by any outward action: So that if this example prove any thing, it proveth that the minister may do, that no man may do, but the Lord only, which is to punish faults that are hid and unknown. If this be ignorance it is very gross, and if it be against knowledge, it is more dangerous. I have determined with myself, to leave unto M. Doctor his outcries, and declamations, and if I should have used them as often as he giveth occasion, there would be no end of writing. The Lord give M. Doctor either better knowledge, or better conscience. Io. Whitgifte. I use this example of Peter, to show that is not against God's word for the ministers Ministers may use temporal punishment. of the Gospel to punish any by imprisonment: For Peter being a minister of the Gospel did punish with death, which is much more than to imprison: and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinary power, so may the ministers of the word punish by imprisonment which is a far less kind of punishment, being lawfully thereunto authorized by the civil Magistrate, according to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Church. Therefore my reason is this: Peter punished with temporal punishment, being a minister of the word, and he did nothing repugnant to his vocation, therefore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the word to punish with temporal punishment. Again, Peter punished with death: therefore the minister may punish with imprisonment: I speak de facto, of the deed done, not de modo, of the manner of doing is. And I doubt not but that seeing it was lawful for Peter to kill by an especial and extraordinary power: so it may be lawful for the minister of the word to imprison, by an usual and ordinary power. And so are all your Collections made in vain, and framed according to your own pleasure, not so my meaning. If you have done it of ignorance, you are to be excused: if of set purpose, you are to be blamed. And whereas you say, that M. Doctor must understand, that this was ecclesiastical powers Peter's punishing of Ananias was by civil jurisdiction▪ Beza de Haeret. à Magist. puniendis. I say on the other side that you must understand, that this was not ecclesiastical but mere civil, which you might have learned of M. Beza in divers places of his book de Haereticis à Magistratu pun. For thus he writeth. Cedò igitur, Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit? quo iure Petrus Ananiam & Sapbiram occidit? quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecavit▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij? minimè profectò: nisi iurisdictiones confundas. Ergo civilis Magistratus iure: Nihil enim est tertium. Tell me therefore, by what law did Christ take the whip in hand twice? by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira? by what right did Paul strike Elymas with blindness? did they those things by the right of the ecclesiastical ministery? no truly, except you will confounded jurisdictions. They did it therefore by the right of civil magistracy: for there is no mean. And to the same purpose doth he speak sundry times in that book. What outcries I have used, or declamations which you have not in ample manner requited, adding to the same all opprobrious kind of speeches, and jesting taunts that you could devise, let the indifferent Reader judge: wherefore I heartily wish unto you, both better knowledge, and better conscience. Chap. 3. the. 13. Division. T. C. Page. 171. Sect. 1 Unto M. Doctor ask where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church, as also unto the three or four such like demands▪ which he maketh in this book, the authors of the Admonition answer at once, that this, and the other are found in Pantaleon, and M. Bales Chronicles. Io. Whitgifte. What authors do they allege for them? for both these be but very late writers, and this is a matter of history, and therefore requireth some great antiquity nearer unto the time of Eugenius, who lived Anno. 650. but you know very well that our Bishops claim not this authority by any constitution or canon of the Pope: neither do they exercise it in their own name: but they have it from the Prince, and in her name, and by her authority do they use it. Chap. 3. the. 14. Division. Bishop of Sarum. Both these governments were confounded in Moses. Therefore they may be confounded, and the Priests of Israel had the judgement and government Ecclesiastical: and civil jurisdiction confounded in Moses. of the people, and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes, as it appeareth by Possidonius. And where you say, to be a chief or a ruler is a civil government: nay, in ecclesiastical causes, it is ecclesiastical government, and not civil. And these differences of government Augustine heareth civil causes. may not so unadvisedly be confounded. This is the key of ecclesiastical correction, and belongerh only to the ecclesiastical officer, and to none other. Hereof Saint Paul saith, Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub. etc. Tradidi illum Satanae. &. This jurisdiction, is not civil but ecclesiastical, and therefore may be exercised by an ecclesiastical person. T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I will take in that which the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheet touching this matter. And first of all I well agreed that he saith, that to give unto Satan (which is to excommunicate, and to correct an ecclesiastical person by reprehension, or putting him out of the ministery, if the cause so require) is mere ecclesiastical, and not civil, and that those things aught to be done of the officers of the Church. This only I deny, that the ministers aught to meddle with civil offices. For proof whereof, the Bishop allegeth the example of Augustine, which as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing & determining of causes, Wherein Possidonius saith nothing, but that I willingly agreed unto. For the minister with the elders aught both to hear and determine of causes, but of such causes, as pertain unto their knowledge, whereof I have spoken before. And that Possidomus meant such causes as belonged unto Augustine, as he was a minister, and not of civil affairs, it appeareth by that which he writeth immediately after, where he saith: Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affairs, he written epistles to divers, but he accounted of this, as of compulsien, and resiraynte from his better businesses. Whereby it appeareth, that S. Augustine meddled not with those worldly affairs, further than by way of giving counsel, which is not unlawful for a minister to do, as one friend unto another, so that his ministery be not thereby hindered. Io. Whitgifte. What S. Augustine did in such matters, and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine judge in worldly matters. matters or not, and that he was not a counsel giver only, but also a judge, it shall best appear by his own words spoken of himself, which are so plain and evident, that after you have heard them, you will be ashamed of this answer to Possidonius, and of your former assertion also. Augustine therefore in his book de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac . Monachorum, of this matter writeth thus: Who feedeth a flock, and doth not receive of the milk of the flock? And yet I call to witness upon my soul the Lord jesus, in whose name I do boldly speak these things, that touching mine own commodity, I had rather every day (as it is appointed in well ordered Monasteries) to work some thing with my hands, and to have the other hours free, to read, and to pray, or too do some thing in the Holy Scriptures, than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other men's causes touching secular business, either in determining them by judging, or in cutting them off by entreating: to the which troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bound Bishops to civil causes. the Apostle hath bound us, not by his own judgement, but by the judgement of him which did speak in him, and yet he himself did not suffer these troubles, for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwise. Here in plain words he declareth, that it was secular business about the which he was occupied: and although he seem to complain of the multitude of such business, yet doth he acknowledge the same to be lawful, just, and convenient, and therefore he addeth, and sayeth: which labour notwithstanding, we suffer not without the consolation of the Lord, for the hope of eternal life, that we may bring forth fruit with patience: for we are servants of that Church, and especially to the weaker members, what members soever we are, in the same body. And a little after he sayeth, That he could not omit those business, without the omitting of his duty. To the same effect doth he speak in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundredth and ten, where he desireth the people that they would not molest him for the space of five days with their worldly matters, by reason of certain business committed unto him, as it appeareth in these words: It pleaseth me and you, for the care of the scriptures, which the brethren and fathers, my fellow Bishops did vouchsafe to say upon me in Ang. epi. 110. the councils of Numidia and Carthage, for the space of five days no man should trouble me. These things were propounded, you were content, your decree and consent was rehearsed: it was kept but a small time, and afterwards you did violently burst in unto me, neither could I be suffered to do that which I would: In the forenoon and in the after noon, I am troubled with men's business: I desire you for Chrystes sake, to suffer me to commit the care of my troubles to Eradius this young man, and priest, whom this day in the name of Christ, I appoint to be your bishop and my successor. Possidonius nameth no elders, but speaketh only of Augustine, and whosoever shall with diligence peruse the nineteenth chapter of Possidonius, shall be enforced to confess that he means Augustine was occupied as well in civil, as ecclesiastical matters, and in determining of them, as in writing of letters for them, or in giving of counsel. Wherefore this example of Augustine is most fitly alleged of the Bishop of Sarum, and manifestly declareth what was the use in his days touching such matters. Chap. 3. the. 15. Division. The Bishop of Sarum in the defence of the Apol. in the. 5. part. 4. chap. 2. sect. T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of this matter, that ministers ought not to meddle with civil affairs, (*) But you shall not find him contrary to himself, as you surmise. I will appeal to no other, than to the Bishop himself, who doth assume plainly the same that the admonition here affirmeth. Io. Whitgifte. In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh only of the Pope, who usurpeth M. jewel speaketh not against civil oh ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his own practice the whole and full authority of a secular Prince, and doth challenge the same iure divino, by the authority of God's word. He speaketh not of such Bishops, to whom so much civil authority is committed by the Prince, as may serve to the correction of vice, and good and quiet government of the Church: forsomuch as he did himself exercise the same. And surely it is not well done of you, thus to charge that worthy man with contrarieties unjustly. For doth he that confuteth the Pope's unjust claim, and ungodly usurpation of both the swords in that manner that he claimeth & useth them, condemn all manner & kind of civil iurisdction by christian Princes committed to Bishops, being helps unto them in doing their duty, and tending to the good and quiet government of the Church? Surely you are good in confounding, but too bad in distinguishing: wherefore you have untruly reported of that worthy Bishop. Chap. 3. the. 16. Division. T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3 And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as (*) Wherefare you not ashamed of vutruthi both the holy scriptures do teach, that ministers aught not to meddle with civil offices, and reason, and the practice of the Church do confirm it, that they aught to keep themselves within the limits of the ministery and ecclesiastical functions, lest whilst they break forth into the calling of a Magistrate, in stead of showing themselves 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is overseers, they be found to declare themselves 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies, meddling in things which belong not unto them. And thus putting them in remembrance of that which they know well mough that they aught 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that is to say, study to adorn that charge which they take in hand, and do profess. I leave to speak any further of this matter. Io. Whitgifte. Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise civil jurisdiction, for he was king of Salem. The scriptures teach that ecclesiastical people may have civil jurisdiction. Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did judge the whole people in temporal matters even in causes of inheritance. Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie, there is a commandment, that civil matters of difficulty shall be referred to the Priests and to the judge. Elye and Samuel Priests did judge the people in matters temporal. Gen. 14. Nun. 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israel after their captivity were governed by Priests and Prophets, as by Esdras, Nehemias, Mattathias. etc. The Scripture in no place commandeth the contrary, nor moveth unto it, & yet you are not ashamed to say, that the holy scriptures do teach, that ministers ought not to meddle with civil offices. Likewise in Augustine's time it is evident by the words before recited, The practice of the church concerning civil offices in ministers. that it was not strange, but usual, and counted a piece of duty for Bishops to deal in Civil causes, and that as judges. The authors of the Centuries, in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did give sentence in civil causes, if any did appeal from the Civil courts to their authority. Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9 Bishops gave sentence in civil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9 writeth thus of Constantine the Emperor. This was a great argument of his good affection towards Christian religion, that he made a law for the freedom of clerk in all places, and also he gave liberty for those that were called into judgement to appeal to the Bishops, if they were disposed to refuse the civil magistrates: and he commanded that their sentence should stand, and be of more force, than the sentence of the Appeal granted from civil magistrates to Bishops. other judges, even as though it had proceeded from the Emperor himself. And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that accomplished, that was determined and judged in such causes by the Bishops. Nicephorns' lib. 7. cap. 9 maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop, that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9 commended, for his wisdom and dexteritic in determining civil matters committed unto him. Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with civil causes. that together with his pastoral office, he was occupied, and that with great commendation in civil and politic affairs. Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth, that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Church of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioch, and well learned, did screw the Emperor in civil business. Theodosius the Emperor made a law, wherein it was decreed, that all civil strifes and controversies should be referred to the judgement of the church, if either Dorotheus. Duaren. lib. 1. of the parties did desire it. And the same law did Carolus Magnus, afterwards renew and confirm: and yet do you say, that the practice of the church doth confirm that Bishops may not meddle with civil offices. If you flee to reason: is it not good reason, that a Bishop should have that office, Some civil jurisdiction given to Bishops is agreeable to reason and that authority, that may help him, in doing his duly, in correcting vice, in procuring peace, in maintaining good order, in cutting off sects, schisms, and such like? in accomplyshing all which be that seeth not how much he is helped by such civil authority, as the Prince committeth unto him, is either void of reason, or wilfully blinded. Wherefore I may most justly conclude, that for so much as the holy Scriptures The conclusion of this matter. do teach, that Ecclesiastical people may meddle with civil effices, the practyso of the Church confirmeth the same, and reason telleth that it is convenient: and seeing that such as practise them both in the manner and form before declared, break not forth into any other man's calling, busy not themselves in things which belong not unto them, but walk in their calling, occupy themselves in matters incidents unto it, and do good service both to God, their Prince, and their country: these offices may very aptly concur and meet together in one person, and be profitably linked and joined together in one man. This did Augustine confess, and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bound them to these troubles, not by his own judgement, but by Bishops bound by the holy ghost to civil troubles judgement of him that did speak in him: as I have before declared: This have the godly Bishops, Cranmer, Ridley, Hooper, etc. consented unto: this do the grave, wise and learned Bishops in our time in this Church by experience know. Admonition. The eighteenth. And birds of the same feather, are covetous patrons of benefices, people, vicar's, readers, parish priests, stipendaries, & riding chaplains, that under the authority of their masters spoil their flocks of the food of their souls, (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seek not the Lord jesus, but their own bellies (b) jud. 12. clouds that are without rain, trees without fruit (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchres full of dead bones, fatted in all abundance of iniquity, and lean locusts, in all feeling, knowledge and sincerity. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 226. Sect. ult. &. 227. Sect. 1 It is true that covetous patrons of benefices be a great plague Covetous patrons. to this Church, and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers. God grant some speedy reformation in that point. Neither can I excuse all people, vicar's. etc. but all this is spoken without the book, and therefore not fitly of you alleged against the book. T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I have spoken in that which hath been said touching excommunication, canons, and Prebendaries. etc. And unto that which is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answer that I can not excuse covetous patrons of benefices, but covetous parsons and vicar's be a great pigue unto this Church, and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant people. Io. Whitgifte. I confess that the covetousness of some of them one way, and the contentiousness of some of you an other way, hath done much harm in the Church, & brought no small hindrance to the Gospel. I pray God open the hearts of all, that every man may espy his own deformity, and be thereof ashamed. T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. ult. Likewise unto the two next sections, I have answered before, in speaking against the spiritual courts, which are now used, & unto the next after that in speaking of the ordaining of ministers. Io. Whitgifte. You have not answered to this contained page. 233. I will neitheriustifie that which is amiss, nor condemn that which I know not. Only this I say, that this taunting spirit of yours seeketh rather defamation than reformation, uttereth spitefulness of stomach rather than godly zeal: for what a deriding of authority & disdain towards the same is this? three of them would be enough to sting a man to death, for why they are high commissioners. What example have you of any godly man, that used thus to deride and flout magistrates, you say all this springeth out of that Pontifical, which you must allow by subscription. etc. But it had been well if you had told us out of what part of that Pontifical they spring, and how they be thereof gathered. This you pass over in silence. Admonition. And thus much be spoken as touching this book, against which to stand, is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men, the one ignorant, the other obstinate. The Lord give those that be his, understanding in all things, that they may have judgement: as for the other, whom the God of this world hath blinded, lest they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confess the truth, and so be saved, and that do in the full growth of wickedness, maliciously resist the truth, God confounded them, that his peace may be upon Israel, and his saving health upon this nation. Answer to the Admonition. Page. 234. Sect. ult. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise, learned, and godly men, to see this book so painfully penned, with such advise perused, and by so long practise allowed, now to be defaced, as it were with frivolous, Four sorts of adversaries to the Church. unlearned and unapt reasons, and that by four sorts of men, Atheists, Papists, and Anabaptists, and as you would be counted Puritans. God of his infinite mercy, give you charitable, quiet, & thankful minds, and either convert your hearts, or root all such disturbers out of this Church, that we may with one heart and mind serve our Lord God. T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. ult. And unto that which is contained in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall judge of the aptness or unaptness of our reasons, & albeit we do find fault with divers things in the book, yet we neither oppugn as enemies, nor are by the grace of God either Papists, Anabaptists, Atheists or Puritans, as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call us. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church, I say with all my heart. Amen. Io. Whitgifte. I would to God you did not oppugn it as enemies. etc. Surely then would not your fierceness nor your bitterness of speech have been such as it is: But God forgive you, and to the prayer I say again. Amen, Amen. Admonition. If this be not plain enough by that which is already set forth, we mind by God's grace to make it plainer, and should do it better, if it were as lawful for us (as for our adversaries) to publish our minds in print, than should appear what slender stuff they bring that are so impudent by open writing to defend it. And if it might please her Majesty, by the advise of you right Honourable, in this high Court of Parliament, to hear us by writing or otherwise, to defend ourselves, than (such is the equity of our cause) that we would trust to found favour in her majesties sight: then those patched Pamphlets, made by sudden upstarts, and new converts, should appear in their colours, and truth have the victory, and God the glory: if this cannot be obtained, we will by God's grace address ourselves to defend his truth by suffering, and willingly lay our heads to the block. And this shall be our peace, to have quiet consciences with our God, whom we will abide for, with all patience, until he make our full deliverance. Answer to the Admonition Pag. 243. And I will not spare my labour from time to time to utter my mind and conscience in these matters: protesting that if by learning you can persuade me, I will say again with Augustine, Errare possum, baereticus esse nolo. All the rest of your stout and suspicious brags, of your undecent and unseemly words, I let pass, and leave them to be considered as notes of your spirit and modesty. The Queen's Majesty may assure herself that she hath of learned men a number sufficient, able by learning to maintain both her authority and laws which her Majesty hath hitherto used, and made for the further e of the Gospel, and maintaining of good order and peace in the Church. The Lord of his infinite goodness long preserve her, and give us thankful hearts to God for her. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 1 Unto the next section I have answered in the treatise of the apparel. And unto the next after, in the treatise which declareth to whom it doth appertain to make ceremonies and orders of the Church. And unto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of oynions, auswereth of garlic. For the Authors of the Admonition, desiring that it might be as lawful for them to published by print their minds, or to be herded dispute, or that their mind put in writing might be openly debated, M. Doctor answereth with Augustine's sentence (which he hath made the foot of his song) nothing to the purpose, of that which they says, the performance of which promise we will notwithstanding wait for. Io. Whitgifte. Why? what have they said there worth the answering, that I have not directly answered unto? they boast of their writing and of their disputing: And I tell them that I will not spare my labour from time to time, to utter my mind and conscience in these matters also. What other answer would you have me to make unto them? The saying of S. Augustine cometh in due place: you call it the foot of my song, and I am very well content you should so do, for I intent to sing that song, so long as I live, neither can any mislike it, but such as either be, or intend to be herelikes. I purpose God willing to perform all the promises that I have made, and when I shrink from any of them, let me hear of it. Admonition. For the Articles, concerning the substance of doctrine, using a godly interpretation in a point Doctrine. The right government of the Church cannot be separated from the doctrine. 1. Tim. 3. 2. or two, which are either too sparely, or else too darkly set down, we were and are ready, according to duty to subscribe unto them. We would to God that as they hold the substance together with us, and we with them, so they would not deny the effect and virtue thereof: then should not our words and works be divorced, but Christ should be suffered to reign, a true ministery according to the word instituted, discipline exercised. Sacraments purely and sincerely ministered: this is that we strive for, and about which we have suffered, ( k 1. Pet. 3. 17 ) not as evil doers, but for resisting popery, and refusing to be stung with the tail of Antichristian infection, ready ( l 2. Pet. 3. 15. ) to tender a reason of our faith, to the stopping of all our enemies mouths. We therefore for the Church of God's sake, which aught to be most dear unto you, beseech you, for our sovereigns' sake, upon whom we pray that all God's blessing may be poured abundantly, we pray you to consider of these abuses, to reform God's Church according to your duties and callings: that as with one mouth we confess one Christ, so with one consent this reign of antichrist, may be turned out headlong from amongst us, and Christ our Lord may reign by his word over us. So your seats shall be established and settled in great assurance, you shall not need to fear your enemies, for God will turn away his threatened plagues from us, which he in mercy do for his Christ's sake. Amen. Answer to the Admonition. Pag. 245. 246. It is very well, that you so like of the articles, but yet it pleaseth Of subscribing to the Articles. you not to subscribe unto them: you say because of a point or two which are either too sparely, or else too darkly set down: but indeed your meaning is to subscribe to nothing, which by authority you are required to do, and that argueth an arrogant mind, and a disposition that loveth always to be singular. You note in the margente that the right government of the Church The argument of the adversary retorted against himself. can never be separated from the doctrine: but by your own confession we have the doctrine, Ergo of necessity we also have the right government. Here in few words you have cast down whatsoever you seemed before to build, so do commonly unskilful builders. I would to God that for so much as (contrary to your former assertion) you now confess that we have the verity of doctrine, you could be content to say, down great heart, and submit yourselves to the Queen's Majesty, and her laws, according to your duty: then no doubt Christ should without resistance reign in this Church, and the fruits of the Gospel would much more appear. You brag much of your suffering, you are little beholding to Persecution pretended where none is. your neighbours, when you are thus constrained to praise yourselves. But I pray you whether doth he persecute that modestly and soberly defendeth the truth, or he that unlawfully revengeth himself, with railing and backbiting? you love very well to have the world know how greatly you be persecuted, and therefore if one of you here in Cambridge be punished but twenty pennies for his open contempt of statutes to the which he is sworn, in post hast it is carried into all quarters, and especially to London, where great complaint is made of this grievous persecution, when as you and your disciples, cease not (as I said) most falsely and slanderously to report of such as executing good laws, discharge their conscience to God, and their duty towards the Prince. We therefore exhort you, if there be any fear of God before your eyes, any reverence towards the Prince, any desire of promoting the Gospel, any loving affection towards the Church of Christ, to submit yourselves according to your duties to godly orders, to leave off contentiousness, to join with us in preaching of the word of God, and beating down the kingdom of antichrist, that this your division procure not God's wrath to be poured upon us. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authors of the Admonition, which declare that for the abuses and corruptions, they dare not simply subscribe, saith, that therefore they will not subscribe, because they are required by lawful authority, which how both presumptuous and uncharitable a judgement it is, let all men judge, especially upon this matter, which hath been declared. And where M. Doctor would upon the marginal note pr , that we have good discipline, because we have good doctrine, & there upon doth wonderfully triumph, he playeth as he of whom it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is having got nothing holdeth it fast. For can M. Doctor be so ignorant, that this manner of speech (doctrine and discipline cannot be s vered) is used of that that they aught not to be severed▪ when as we say (following S. Paul) that we can do nothing against the truth, do we not mean that we aught to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it? And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife, but for the cause of A ultery, that we mean he aught not, or he cannot lawfully? Therefore this is (as all men may see) a mere cavil and triumph over his own shadow. There is no brag of suffering made by the authors of the Admonition. The modesty wherewith he hath defended this cause, cannot be hidden. That he would have other men punished for well doing, when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth, should be once spoken of, I have showed how unreasonable it is. Io. Whitgifte. I speak of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine, which they confess to be sound using a godly interpretation in a point or two. etc. what other abuses so ever there be in the book of common prayer, or in the Church, yet that is no sufficient cause, why they should refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church, and contained in those Articles. Wherefore seeing they confess them to be sound, and yet deny to subscribe, who can otherwise judge of them, than I have signified in my Answer. I acknowledge myself to be ignorant that in this and such like phrases this Can is not taken for aught, if it be spoken simply word Can, is taken for aught. When Saint Paul saith, that we can do nothing against the truth, he means simply as he speaketh, and doth not there use Can, for aught. For indeed we can do nothing against the truth, though we do the worst we can. It is no usual phrase, but an unproper kind of speech to say, that a man cannot do a thing, when he should say that he aught not to do it, except he add some thing, as he cannot do it lawfully, or well, or orderly, and such like. Wherefore my dullness is such that I cannot understand such dark speeches, until they be interpreted, and yet whether they would so interpret themselves or no, it may be doubted. If they brag not of persecution, whereunto tend these words of there's, this is that we strive for, about which we have suffered, not as evil doers. etc. and quote in the margin to prove it. 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels? How immodest soever I am in defending this cause, yet if it be compared either to schismatics deserve to be sharply reproved. their passing bitterness, or to your spiteful speeches, and unseemly taunts and jests, I shall appear too-too simple: and although I must needs say thus much, that disturbers of the common peace of the Church, and Schismatics, deserve to be with sharp words reproved, yet have not I used that sharpness and bitterness, which diverse learned men both old and new have used in the like case. If I have done any man wrong let him come forth and prove it, and I will tender unto him quadruple. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3 Finally as you exhort us to submit ourselves to good order, which have been always, and yet are ready to do: to leave to be contentious, which never yet began: to join with you in preaching the word of God, which have stopped our mouths, and will not suffer us to preach: so we exhort you in God's behalf, and as you will once answer it before the just judge, that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth, that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it unto you, you kick not against it? Wherefore we pray you to take heed, that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honour which you are in, nor the hope which you may have of any further promotion, nor yet the care of keeping your estimation, by maintaining that which you have once set down, nor the sleighey suggestion of crafty and wily Papists, do drive you to stumble against this truth of God, which toucheth the government of his Church, and the purging of those corruptions which are amongst us, knowing that you cannot stumble upon the word of God, but forthwith you run yourself against Christ, which is the rock. And you know that he will not give back, but breaketh all to fitters, whatsoever that rusheth against him. Io. Whitgifte. You do not submit yourselves to the order of the Church, which is a good and decent order: you have filled the Church with marvelous contentions, and have strangely divided, even such as profess the Gospel: your mouths are not stopped but through your own procuring. I do not withstand that which you untruly call the truth, for any such cause as you surmise, (God who seethe my heart knoweth) but because I see these your devices to be set down by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God: against the practice and order of the primitive Church, tending also to dangerous errors, and mere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth. T. C. Page. 172. Sect. ult. And if the matter herein alleged, do not satisfy you, than I desire even before the same GOD, that you confute it, not by passing over things which you can not answer, or by staving both the words and the meaning of the book, and taking your own fancy to confuce, or by wrougling with the fault of the print, or by carping at the translation, when the words being changed the sense remaineth, or by alleging that such a one, or such another was of this or that judgement, as you for the most part (having nothing but his bore name) have done. All which things you have committed in this book▪ but that you confute it, by the authority of the word of God, by good and sound reasons, wholly, and not by piecemeal. And if you bring the practice of the churches, we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant, which are not counterfeit, and which were in the best and purest times. And if you think that the credit of your Doctor ship or Deanery will bear out that which you cannot answer yourself, besides that (*) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, is never shut▪ remember M. Doctor that light is come into that world, and The revenging eye. men will not be deluded with nothing, nor abused with vizards, neither let it embolden you which peradventure hath made poli presume the more in▪ this book) to writ any thing upon hope, that no man dare answer it. For neither the Queen's Majesty nor her honourable counsel, as we are persuaded, will deal so sharply with those, whom they know to be faithful, and lawful subjects, which pray that all the treasures of God's wisdom may be poured upon them: neither have we cause to think, but that as the evil opinion which is in part conceived of us, hath grown upon false and untrue informations, which you and such other have given in crying in their ears, that we be Anabaptists, conspired with Papists, Puritans, Donatists', bringers in of confusion and anarchy, enemies to civil government, and I know not what: even so when her Majesty, and their honours shall understand how far we are from those wicked opinions, they will leave that opinion of us▪ and rather esteem of us, by that we have preached, taught, and now writ, than that which other men report of us, being things which we never taught▪ spoke, or so much as dreamt of. Io. Whitgifte. It is so far from satisfying me in any point, that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing, where unto before I did but incline. Such is the weakness of your grounds. Your request made unto me is against all reason, for how can you require that of The Reply requireth that of others which he himself would not perform. me toward you, which you have in no respect performed towards me? for first, you have not set down my book, that the Reader might perceive, how uprightly you deal with me: secondly, you have passed over many things and left them unanswered: Thirdly, you have unreasonably wrested my words, and in most places you do nothing but wrangle: you have mangled my book, and so skipped from place to place, that the Reader shall hardly perceive, what you take or what you leave: to be short, you have used few scriptures, and those untolerably wrested. How then can you require the contrary of me? But I have satisfied your request to the full I trust: save only I do not intent to learn of you how to answer, what authority to use, but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light, they shall the more easily by you be removed. I depend not upon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanery, neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your own learning and wit: I say with Saint Augustine, Let scripture be compared with scripture, reason with reason, authority with authority, cause with cause, and let us both according to the same be judged. I doubt not of the answering of my book, neither do I fear it: you know that Conference by writing hath been often offered to the Replier. I have offered you diverse times this kind of conference, though not in this public manner. I have spoken nothing against you, before her majesty, which your books and doings, have not proved to be true. Her Majesty and their honours know what they have to do, the Lord bliss them with his holy spirit, and in all their doings guide them. Of the additions, detractions, and alterations made by the admonitors in both the parts of the Admonition. T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1 Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth accounted the expositions and explanations, corrections, he veth us somewhat the less hope, that he will correct his errors, for that he purfueth the authors of the Admonition so hard, correcting their very small and few slips, which they have made, calling this singular destie and commendable hum humility amongst other reproaches, dallying and inconstancy, when it is our profession every day to learn better things. For unto what end should we live, if time, if experience, if reading, iusing, if conference should teach us nothing? And therefore when things are printed again, it is good and praise worthy, to polished those things which are some what rud , to mitigate these things which are too sharp, to make plain & to give light to those things which seem darker, and to correct that which is amiss. I think M. Doctor should not be ignorant, that wise men have their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, there second councils, and those also wiser and better than their first, as that sentence doth declare. I will therefore say no more hereof, but admonish M. Doctor that he receive more lovingly those which correct themselves, seeing that the best defence to his book, must be, not a correction here and there, but a clean blotting, or striking out, not an amending, but a new making almost of his whole book. Other matter in his censures, he hath almost none at all worth the answering, saving that he hath a place or two, which toucheth the matters before entreated of. Io. Whitgifte. It behoveth such as will take upon them to pluck down that which is well builded, They which will pull down the old, and place a new platform, ought to be five rye circumspect. and to make a new platform, to be well advised what they do, and assured of their cunning: if this aught to be in human matters, and in external affairs of the life of man, how much more aught it to be in divine matters, and things pertaining to the kingdom of heaven. I do not mislike that modesty and humility, that is content to be corrected, and to acknowledge that which is ami e. But I can by no means allow that pride and arrogancy, that presuming to condemn the whole state of a Church, and to prescribe unto the same a new platform, is by and by after, through unskilfulness, and lack of discretion at the first, constrained to mislike that new platform also, and to p ce it and patch it like a beggars cloak, with putting too and taking fro, with altering and changing sometime this, and sometime that, like unto foolish and unskilful builders. It behoveth such as will take upon them in church matters to pluck down that which is already builded, and to prescribe a new platform, to be certain of their king, expert in their doings, grounded in learning and experience: not younglings and novices, whose yea to day is nay to morrow, whose heads are full of new toys and devices, who publish in print their first cogitations and counsels, before they have any leisure to think of their second. This is that which I mislike, and reprove in the authors of the Admonition: for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. if they had published their minds as scholars, and not as masters: as learners, not as teachers: as putters in mind of that which best liked themselves, not as prescribers what all other men aught of duty to follow, their sudden corrections had been much more tolerable. But I will not multiply words with you, neither will I require that which you contemptuously enough have spoken of myself, only I admonish the Reader to take heed how he doth credit such rash and young builders, which so soon as they have ended their building, must be constrained to pluck down the same again. Answer to the Additions, detractions. etc. of the first part of the Admonition. In the preface, to Archbishops, Bishops, Suffragans, Deans. etc. they have Doctors and Bachelors of divine ie misliked. added University Doctors, and Bachelors of divinity. It should seem that they would have a confusion of degrees (which they call equality) as well in universities, as in Parishes, and other their imagined congregations: mark whether this gear tend not to the overthrow of universities, and of all good learning. T. C. Pag. 173. towards the end of the first Section. For whereas he accuseth the Authors of the Admonition in the first leaf, as though they should condemn Doctors and Bachlers of divinity, and so bring in confusion of degrees, he upon the. 5. leaf confesseth that they allow of a Doctor. Although he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachler of diumine, doth not bring in confusion, nor taketh not away all degrees of schools, especially seeing they are now made bore names without any offices, and oftentimes they are admitted to these degrees, which neither can, nor will teach. Io. Whitgifte. I say that belike they allow of a Doctor of law, because they have left that title out in their second edition: and have in stead thereof placed Doctors, and Bachlers of divinity. The cause why you leave so much unto them in this barbarous opinion, The cause why the Replier joineth against degrees in diumitie. may be conjectured, to be the repulse that you suffered when you earnestly desired the one of them. If the degrees be bestowed upon unworthy people (which you are not able to prove at this day) the fault is in the people that so bestow them, not in the degrees, the taking away whereof, must needs in the end bring in confusion and barbarism: and in deed they can by no means stand with your platform, and therefore do you here insinuate that you are content to allow all the degrees in schools, but only the degrees in divinity, and yet as I said before, not long since you greatly desired even the highest of them. Additions, detractions, and alterations in the first part of the Admonition. In the Preface. In the margin, for the. 15. of Matthew. vers. 23. they have quoted the. 15. of Math. vers. 13. to prove that tyrannous Lordship cannot stand with Christ's kingdom: the words be these: But he answered and said, every plant which my father hath not planted, shall be rooted up, meaning that such as be not by free adoption and grace grafted in Jesus Christ, shall be rooted up. But this proveth not their proposition: I do not allow tyrannous Lordship, but I disallow such unapt reasons. In the same Preface speaking of Bishops. etc. they have added these words: they were once of our mind, but since their consecration they be so transubstantiated, that they are become such as you see. It may be that consideration of the time, place, state, condition, and other circumstances hath altered some of them in some points, as wise (and not wilful) men in such matters by such circumstances be oftentimes altered: but that any one of them were ever of your mind in most things uttered in those two treatises, I can not be persuaded. Fol. 1. For the. 1. Act. vers. 12. is noted. Act. 2. vers. 2 . to prove that in the old Church there was a try all had both of the Ministers ability to instruct, and of their godly conversation also. The text is this: And it shall be that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Which is farther from the purpose a great deal, than the other place is. There is also in the same leaf left out, King Edward's Priests: which King Edward's priests left out. argueth with how little discretion, and less advise, the first Admonition was poe ed. Speaking of learning master Nowel's Catechism, these words be added: and so first they consecrated them, and make them Ministers, and then they set them to school. This scoff is answered before, and might very well A scoff. have been left out. And a little after, where it was before, than election was made by the common consent of the whole Church: now it is thus corrected, A correction of a place. than election was made by the Elders, with the common consent of the whole Church: which altereth the matter something, but yet is not proved by the text alleged out of the first of the Acts, and by me answered before. Fol. 2. For Act. 14. verse. 13. is quoted Act. 14. verse. 23. which oversight I myself have corrected in my answer to that place. There is also left out an Albe, which before was said to be required Albe left out. by the Pontifical in the ordering of ministers. As I said before, so I say again, that in the book of ordering ministers, now used, and printed since Anno dom. 1559. there is neither required albe, surplice, vestiment, nor pastoral staff. This line is also added, these are required by their Pontifical, meaning surplice, vestiment. etc. which is untrue, as I have said before. For the. 1. Tim. 1. verse. 14. now it is. 1. Tim. 1. verse. 19 but it is not to prove any matter in controversy, only it is uncharitably and unjustly applied. For. 1. Sam. 9 verse. 28. is placed. 1. Sam. 9 verse. 18. the self same place that I have answered before. Where before it was thus written: Then ministers were not so tied to any form of prayers invented by man: now these words invented by man be left out, and there is added, as necessity of time required, so they might pour. etc. I know not their meaning, except they would neither have us bound to the lords prayer, nor any other. Fol. 3. It was before, remove Homilies, Articles, Injunctions, a prescript order: now Alteration of words. it is that prescript order. Whereby it should seem that they have learned to allow of a prescript order of prayers, but not of that prescript order which is in the book of public prayers. This is no dallying, neither yet inconstancy. For the. 3. of Mat. ver. 12. is placed. 3. of Mat. ver. 1. to prove that in the old time the word was preached before the sacraments were ministered: the place now alleged is this: In those days john the Baptist came and preached in the wilderness of judea. This proveth that johnpreached, but it proveth not, that whensoever john did baptize, than he did preach. Oueragaynst these words, the Nicene creed was not read in their communion, A protestation by the way. is written in the margin, Note that we condemn not the doctrine contained therein. If you condemn not the doctrine therein, what do you then condemn? or why mislike you the communion, because that creed containing true doctrine is read at the celebration thereof? It is well that you make this protestation, if you mean good faith. Here is also added the. 42. ver. Act. 2. to prove that then the sacrament was ministered with common & usual bread: which place I have answered before, in answering to the. 46. verse of that chapter. Where as before it was thus, interrogatories ministered to the Infant, Godfathers They allow godfathers & godmothers at the last. and Godmothers brought in by Higinus: now Godfathers and Godmothers brought it by Higinus is left out. It is happy that you are sosoone persuaded to allow of godfathers and godmothers: I perceive you took upon you to set down a platform of a Church, before you had well considered of it. Fol. 4. For, some one of the congregation, is now, some of the congregation: whereby they seem to allow more godfathers than one, which they did not before. For the. 14. of the Acts, verse. 4. is noted the. 15. of the Acts, vers. 4. to prove that the office of Seniors was to govern the Church with the rest of the ministers: but without reason. For it is only there written, that at jerusalem there was Apostles and Elders, & that Paul and Barnabas declared unto them what things God had done by them. I deny not the thing itself (whereof I have sufficiently spoken before) but the argument. These Seniors then because their charge was not over much, did execute their office in their own people: Now these words, because their charge was not over much be left out. Wherefore they have left them out I know not. Fol. 5. They have left out Doctors three times in this leaf, which before they recited with chancellors, Archdeacon's, Officials, Commissaries, Why Doctors of 〈◊〉 be left out. Proctors. Belike they have remembered that this word Doctor, is found in the new Testament, and especially Doctor of law. To prove equality of ministers, they have added Phil. 1. verse. 1. 1. Thes. 1. 1. The first place is this, Paul and Timotheus the servants of jesus Christ to all Saints in Christ jesus that are at Philippi, with the Bishops and Deacons. The second is this: Paul and Sylvanus and Timotheus unto the Church of the Thessalonians. etc. Truly I know not how to conclude of those places an equality of all ministers: I would to God you would set down your places, and frame your arguments yourselves. Fol. 6. They have forgotten to quote Heb. 6. 1. and have left out the body and Tail of Antichrist. branch of Antichrist, and for the same have put in the tail: But these are but trifles, and very slender corrections. Io. Whitgifte. To all these there is nothing said, belike the Authors of the Admonition must answer for themselves, or else provide another Proctor. Answer to the additions. etc. of the second part of the admonition. Fol. 2. For the first of Tim. 3. verse. 3. now they have quoted. 1. Tim. 3. verse. 6. against reading ministers: Where S. Paul would not have a minister to be a young scholar: but he speaketh nothing against reading. T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 2. Unto the second leaf of the addition of the second part of the Admonition, M. Doctor saith that because the. 3. to Titus, maketh not against reading, therefore it maketh not against reading ministers, that is, ministers that can do nothing but read. Io. Whitgifte. It is in the. 1. Tim. 3. and it maketh against unlearned Ministers, not against the reading of Ministers: for he may be a reading Minister, and yet learned. Answer to the Detractions. etc. It was before reading is not feeding, now it is thus amended, for Correction of a sudden. bore reading of the word, and single service saying, is bore feeding: whereby they now confess, that reading is feeding, although it be (as they say) but bore feeding. We were in good case if the platform of our Church depended upon these men, which altar their judgements so suddenly. It is a true saying, Conueniet nulli qui secum dissidet ipse. How can he agreed with other, that doth not agreed with himself? T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. ult. And where as he would pick out a contradiction in the words of the Admonition, because they say bore reading is but bore feeding, the discord is in his cares, not in their words. For when they said it was no feeding, they meant such feeding as could save them, and so in calling it bore feeding, they note that there is not (*) This is anec m, and contrary to that which ou have pa. 158. 〈◊〉. 15. etc. inaugh in that, to keep them from famishment. And indeed unless the Lord work miraculously and extraordinarily (which is not to be looked for of us) the bore reading of the scriptures without the preaching, cannot deliver so much as one poor sheep from destruction, and from the wolf. And if some have been converted wonderfully, yet. M. D. should remember that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. That is, the water doth not always bear iron. Io. Whitgifte. Reading is not feeding, and reading is bear feeding, be both untruths, and derogate from the Majesty and dignity of the word of God: but yet in these speeches there is contrariety, for bore feeding is feeding. What they meant by, not feeding, their words following do declare, for (say they) it is as evil as playing upon a stage and worse to. etc. The Replier falls into contrariety while he seeketh to clear the Admonition of it. whereof I have spoken before. But whilst-you go about to excuse them of contrariety, you fall into it yourself, for page. 158. of your book, comparing the reading of the Scriptures, with reading of Homilies, you say, that the word of God is also plain and easy to be understanded, & such as giveth understanding to Idiots and to the simple. etc. And now you say, that there is not enough in the reading of the scrptures, to keep the people from famishment. etc. the which how far it differeth, from your former words, no man is so blind Pag. 158. Lin. 15. etc. that can not see. Beside this, it is a Popish, and an ungodly opinion, contrary to the worthiness and profitableness of the Scriptures: contrary to the words of Christ jobn. 5. john. 5. Search the Scripture, etc. contrary to the words of the Apostle. 2. Tim. 3. Omnis 2. Tim. 3. Tract. 13. scriptura divinitùs inspirata. etc. And contrary to all that, that I have alleged before for the reading of the Scriptures, to the which for the further confutation of this ungodly error, I do refer the Reader. Answer to the Detractions, etc. Fol. 3. In the same leaf and fift reason, to these words: Besides, that we never read in the new Testament that this word (Priest) as touching office is used in the Correction with exception. good part: In the second edition is added, except it speak of the levitical Priesthood or of the Priesthood of Christ. Here as I think they have forgotten that which Peter speaketh to all Christians, in his. 1. Epist. cap. 2. ver. 5. And you as lively stones be made a spiritual house and holy Priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God, by jesus Christ. & ver. 9 But you are a choose generation, a royal priesthood. etc. And Apo. 1. And make us Kings and Priests unto God etc. I willed them before to show me one place in the whole new Testament, where this word Priest as touching the office, is taken in evil part: I may be deceived, but I desire to learn. T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 1 And upon the. 3. leaf, where he giveth instance in the apocalypse of the word (Priest) to be taken otherwise, than for the Levitical priesthood, and priesthood of our saviour Christ. M. D. cannot be ignorant that the Admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deed, & properly, and not by those which are priests by a inctaphore and borrowed speech. And whereas he desireth to learn where the word, priest, is taken in evil part in all the new testament. Although all men see how he asketh this question of no mind to learn, yet if he will learn (as he saith) he shall found that in (*) In what Chapter. the Acts of the Apostles it is taken divers times in evil part. For seeing that the office & function of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, of priests was (after our saviour christs ascension) nought & ungodly: the name whereby they were called, which did exercise that ungodly function, cannot be otherwise taken than in the evil part. Io. Whitgifte. And what say you to the places of S. Peter, is not this word (priest) taken in good part there also? I desired to have one place in all the new Testament named unto me, where this word priest is taken in evil part, & you sand me over to the Acts of the Apostles naming neither text nor chapter: & yet that satisfieth not my request, for the Authors of the Admonition in their corrections, except the Levitical priesthood, and the priesthood of Christ, whereof only there is mention made in the Acts of the Apostles, except it be in the. 14. of the Acts, where Luke speaketh of heathenish priests, as of the priest of Jupiter: so that my question is as yet unanswered by you. Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 5. But of the Bishop's benediction by laying on of his hands hear master calvin's judgement in this Instit. cap. 19 Section. 4. Talem manuum Imposition of hands in confirmation allowed by Calvin. impositionem quae simpliciter loco benedictionis fiat, laudo, & restitutam hodiè in purum usum velim. Such imposition of hands as is simply made in the stead of blessing, I do commend, and wish that it were restored at this day to the pure use. There shall you also read the very self same form and manner of confirmation allowed, which is now used in this Church of England. T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 2. Master Doctor upon the. 5. leaf, citeth M. Caluins' authority to prove that the laying on of the hands upon young children, & the confirmation which is here used is good. In the which place, although he allow of a kind of confirmation, yet he doth not commend that which we have. For he doth plainly reprove Jerome, for saying that it came from the Apostles, which notwithstanding the confirmation with us doth affirm. Besides that there are other abuses which I have noted there, which M. Calvin doth not by any word allow. He alloweth indeed of a putting on of hands of the children, when they come out of their childhood, or begin to be young men, but as well as he doth allow of it, he was one of those which did thrust it out of the Church where he was Pastor. And (*) Here you make M. Caluine contrary to himself, but untruly. so he alloweth of it, that he bringeth (in the sixt Section of the same Chapter) a strong reason to abolish it. Where he asketh what the imposition of hands should do now, seeing that the gifts of the holy Ghost by that ceremony is ceased. Therefore seeing that we have M. Caluins' reason against this imposition of hands, his name aught not to be prejudicial unto us: especially seeing that we have experience of great inconuemences which come by it, which master Calvin could not have, that thing being not in use in that Church where he lived. Which inconvenience in things which are not necessary, aught to be a just cause of abolishing of them: And this is not my judgement only, but the judgement of the Churches of Helvetia, Berne, Tigurine, Geneva, Scotland, and divers others as appeareth in the. 19 Chap. of their confession. Io. Whitgifte. The common refuge of the Replier is to discredit the Author. Here you would shifted of M. Caluins' authority if you known how: but being overpressed with his manifest words, you fly to your common & usual refuge, that is, to discredit the Author, by charging him with contrarieties in this matter: for you confess that he alloweth a kind of confimation: you say also that he alloweth in deed of a putting on of hands of the children, when they come out of their childhood or begin to be young men: and again you affirm: that he was one of those, that did thrust it out of the Church where he was Pastor: and that he bringeth in the 6. Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it. Thus you set Master Caluine against himself, and that in the same Calvin untruly charged with contrariety by the replier. Chapter, which cannot but turn to his great discredit, if it were true: but you greatly abuse both the Reader and him: for in the. 4. section which I have alleged, he speaketh of that manner of confirmation & imposition of hands which was used in the old Church, and the same that is now used in the Church of England, which he alloweth and wisheth restored: In the fifth and sixth sections he speaketh of the manner and form of confirmation, and laying on of hands used by the Papists, and disproveth that: as his own words, (which I have for that purpose more at large set down) do plainly declare: for in the fourth Section of the. 19 Chapter thus he writeth. This was the manner in times past, that the children of Christians should be Calvin inst. cap. 9 sect. 4. set before the Bishop, after they were come to years of discretion, that they might perform that, which was required of them, that being of age did offer themselves to baptism. For these sat among the Catechumeni, until (being rightly instructed in the mysteries of faith) they were able to utter a confession of their faith, before the Bishop and the people. The infants therefore that were baptized, because than they made no confession of A kind of con described by Calvin, not disagreeing from ours. faith in the Church: at the end of their childhood, or in the beginning of their youth, they were again presented of their parents, and were examined of the Bishop, according to a certain and common form of a Catechism. And to the intent that this action (which otherwise aught of right to be grave and holy) might have the greater reverence and estimation, there was added also the ceremony of laying on of hands, so the child was dismissed, his faith being approved with a solemn blessing. The ancient fathers make often mention of this order. Pope Leo, If any man return from heretics, let him not again be baptized, but let the virtue of the spirit (which was wanting) be given unto him by the laying on of the Bishop's hands. Here our adversaries will cry, that it is rightly called a Sacrament, wherein the holy Ghost is given. But Leo himself doth in another place expound what he means by those words: He that is baptized (saith he) of heretics, let him not be rebaptized, but let him be confirmed, with the invocation of the holy Ghost, by the imposition of hands: because he received only the form of baptism without sanctification. Jerome also maketh mention hereof, contra Luciferianos. Although I do not deny, that Herome is somewhat herein deceived, that he saith that it is an Apostolical observation: yet is he most far from these men's follies. And he mitigateth it when he saith that this blessing was granted only to the Bishop, rather for the honour of priesthood, than by the necessity of the law. Wherefore such an imposition of hands which is simply in stead of a blessing, I commend, and would wish it were at these days restored to the pure use. These words be evident, & declare a manner of confirmation correspondent to ours. In the fifth Section he writeth thus. But the latter age have brought in a counterfey e The abuse of confirmation in the popish Church. confirmation in stead of a Sacrament of God, the thing itself being almost quite blotted out. They feign this to be the virtue of confirmation, to give the holy Ghost unto the increase of grace, which was given in baptism to innocency of life, to confirm them unto battle, which in baptism were regenerated unto life. This confirmation is wrought with anointing, and this form of words: I sign the with the sign of the holy Ghost, and I confirm thee with the ointment of salvation, in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost. etc. And in confuting this manner of confirmation, and imposition of hands, he proceedeth on in this fifth Section, & in the sixth Section. Wherefore Master Caluine is not contrary to himself, neither disalloweth that kind of confirmation and imposition of hands in the sixth Section, which he alloweth in the fourth. But in the one he approveth the manner of the ancient and purer Church touching confirmation: in the other he disproveth the use & doctrine of the papistical church, concerning the same. This might you have seen, if you had been disposed: but you care not whom you discredit so that you may win credit to yourself. The confession of the Churches of Helvetia, Berne, etc. speak only of the Popish The Repl viech that against our confirmation which is 〈◊〉 of the Papists. Confess. Heluet. cap. 19 confirmation, which the Papists make one of their seven Sacraments, as it is manifest by the words of the confession which be these. Confirmation and extreme unction or anealing, are the inventions of man, which the church may want without any damage: Neither use we them in our churches, for they have some things which we can not allow. Now to use that against Confirmation, reform & purged from these things which they mislike, which is spoken of the Popish confirmation with all the abuses, can it be (think you) the part of an honest, and plain dealing man? Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 6. In the end of that fifteenth article or reason, this is added: And which of them have not preached against the Pope's two sword: now whether they use them not themselves? Touching the Pope's two sword, we are of the same mind still, for the Pope contrary to the word of God taketh from Princes unto himself, that authority which is due unto them by the word of God, and would have them to receive that authority from him, which he hath no power to give: the Pope also requireth the full authority of a civil magistrate, and exempteth himself from all subjection, which is lat contrary to the word of God: our Bishops Bishops do not use the civiil sword as the pope doth. in this church do not challenge (as of their own right) any such civil authority, but only according to their duty execute that, that by the Prince, and laws of this realm, for just considerations is laid upon them. Neither do they meddle in all civil causes, or exercise all civil jurisdiction, but such only as helpeth to discipline, and to the good government of this church and state: wherefore we may safely preach against the Pope's two sword, and yet lawfully defend that jurisdiction and authority, that any Bishop hath in this church for any thing that I know. T. C. Page. 174. Sect. 3 Upon the sixt leaf M. Doctor says that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes, but our Bishops take it at their hands, and given of them: as though challenge were not made against the Pope for using the material sword, and not only for using it against the will of the Princes. For by that reason if Princes would put their sword in his hand, as sometimes they have done; he might lawfully use them. And whereas he saith that our churchmen meddle not with all civil causes, or exercise all civil jurisdiction, but such as helpeth to discipline, and the good government of the church, & the estate. What saith he, that is not truly said of any civil magistrate in the realm. For no one doth meddle in all causes. And further I would gladly know what civil jurisdiction is in this realm, which helpeth not unto the good government of this church and estate. For if they meddle with all that, there is none which they have not to do with. Io. Whitgifte. The thing itself declareth and the practice of this church is evident, in what sort Difference betwixt the civil jurisdiction of the Pope, & of our Bishops. and condition such civil offices are committed to ecclesiastical people: and that they do not rule as kings, but as subjects to kings, nor that they challe ge not this of any other authority, but from the Prince, and that they use it to no other end than the good and godly government of the church: whereas the Pope ruleth as Emperor and king, not as subject: challengeth his authority of duty, and by the word of God, not by the grant of Princes, and useth it most Tyrannically, even to the placing and displacing of kings and Emperors at his pleasure. And this is that usurped jurisdiction which all good men cry out of, and mislike, and not the other which is ordinary, usual and lawful. When I say that Bishops have that civil jurisdiction which helpeth to discipline, and the good government of the church and state: all men may understand that I mean such civil jurisdiction, as is meet for them to execute, and agreeable to their vocation and calling. Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 7. Whereas before it was thus in the margin, and. 19 reason: To prove that the regiment of the Church should be spiritual, read Ephes. 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13. 1. Tim. 5. 2. Heb. 10. 30. now it is thus altered: to prove that the regiment of the church should be spiritual, read Caluine in his Commentaries upon these places Ephe. 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13. 1. Ti. 5. 2. Heb. 10. 30. Belike because the scriptures themselves do not sufficiently prove your assertion, therefore you would have us to leave them, and to rest upon calvin's interpretation, which is nothing else but to prefer man's judgement before the word of God, or to give M. Caluine authority to conclude that which is not determined by the scripture. If this be not your meaning why fly you from those places themselves to M. calvin's interpretation upon them? But what if you now abuse M. calvin's Commentaries upon these places, as you did before the places themselves? In his commentaries upon Ephe. 1 vers. 23. This is all that he saith touching this matter. Nam utcunque Christus omnia perficiat, nutu virtureque sua: tamen specialiter loquitur hic Paulus de spirituali ecclesiae gubernation. Quanquam nihil intereà impedit quominùs de universali mundi gubernation accipias. For howsoever Christ maketh perfect all things with his beck and by his power, yet Paul speaketh here especially of the spiritual government of the church. Although that in the mean time it is no hindrance, why thou mayst not also understand it of the universal government of the world. These words serve little for your purpose. There is no man that doubteth, but that Christ doth spiritually govern his church, and reign in the hearts of the faithful by his spirit: But your meaning is that the government of the church is only spiritual, which you can no more gather of these words of Caluine, than you may that of the government the whole world aught only to be spiritual. The same Caluine writing upon. 1. Thes. 5. vers. 12. for the which you have noted the. 13. saith on this sort: Hoc additum videtur, ad notandum spirituale regimen, tameesi enim reges quoque & magistratus Dei ordinatione praesunt, quia tamen ecclesiae gubernationem dominus peculiariter vult suam agnosci, ideò nominatim praeesse in Domino dicuntur, qui Christi nomine & mandato ecclesiam gubernant. This seems to be added to note the spiritual regiment, For although kings also and magistrates do govern by the ordinance of God, yet because the Lord would have the government of the church known peculiarly to be his, therefore namely they are said to rule in the Lord, which governeth the church in the name of Christ and by his commandment. hitherto Caluine also affirmeth that which no man denieth, that God doth by the ministery of his word, spiritually govern his church. But this taketh not away the evil magistrate, neither yet civil laws made by the Magistrate externally also to govern the church. In his Commentaries. 1. Ti. 5 vers. 2. he speaketh not one word of this matter for any thing that I can perceive. Upon the place to the Hebrews, he only showeth that God doth govern his church, the which I think no man is so wicked as to deny. You must more plainly set it down what your meaning in this matter is, before you can be fully answered. For to prove that God doth spiritually govern his church is needless, being denied Anabaptisme after a sort fended. of none, either Papist or protestant: but thereupon to conclude that the civil Magistrate is secluded from the government of the church, or that there needeth no external regiment, is dangerous and savoureth Anabaptisme. T. C. Page. 174. Sect. ult. Upon the seventh leaf he saith that he knoweth not the meaning of the Admonition, when it proveth that the government of the church is spiritual, their meaning is plain enough and I have declared it more at large to be, not only that our saviour Christ ruleth by his spirit in the hearts of his elect, (besides which government M. Doctor seemeth to know none) but that there is also spiritual government, which is in the whole church visible and to be seen, exercised by those whom God hath appointed in his stead, called spiritual, because whereas the civil government useth the sword, this useth the word. and where the civil governor addresseth himself unto the body, and hath that for special matter to work on: the spiritual governors be occupied in reforming the mind, and subduing that with those punishments & corrections which God hath appointed for that purpose. Which signification of spiritual government, M. Caluine doth speak of in both the places alleged by M. Doctor. and especially in the latter, unto whom the Admonition sent the Reader, not thereby to give more weight unto the truth, but that he might have there a plainer, and fuller understanding of that which is meant, and could not for that brevity and shortness which it followeth throughout, utter at large. Whereby it is manifest, that the Admonition is so far from shutting out either civil government or external government in the church, that it teacheth of an external government which M. doctor seemeth not to have herded of, albert there be nothing either more common in the scriptures, or ecclesiastical writers. Io. Whitgifte. You reply not to my answer, neither do you tell us why you have left out the places of Scripture before quoted, and in place thereof put M Caluine: Neither have you salved their unapt and unfit alleging of M. Caluine, who is far from proving their purpose in those places which they have noted. In deed the true spiritual government of the church is the ruling of Christ by his spirit in the hearts of the elect: neither do I deny but that admonition, exhortation, and excommunication The whole external government of the church is not spiritual. pertain also to the spiritual government of the church, because they pertain to the inward man, and use no corporal force or punishment: but I d nigh the whole government of the church to consist herein, for I have proved before, and it cannot be denied, but that God hath chief and principally committed the government of his church to the Christian magistrate, by the sword also, and by convenient laws and orders to govern the same with an external kind of government: and therefore that which I deny, neither you nor they have as yet proved, or can prove: that is, that the government of the church is only spiritual. But still the Reader may note how you labour clean to shut out the civil magistrate from the government of the church. The civil magistrate excluded from government of the church. For if the government of it be only spiritual (which you labour to pro e) than what hath the civil magistrate to do therewith? Admonish and exhort he may not: excommunicate he cannot: and therefore hath he by your doctrine no more to do in the government of the church, which consists in these and such like spiritual actions, than the poorest subject in this land. For when you say that the Admonition is far from shutting out either civil government or external government in the church, you speak Subtle speech of the Replier. Governor in the church, not of the church. subtly in saying in the church, not, of the church, for you confess that the civil magistrate is a governor in the church, but not of the church, that is, he governeth the common wealth which is contained in the church, but he doth not govern the church. O how simply and plainly you deal. Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 8. In the margin over against the. 21. reason, there is this note: It containeth manifest blasphemy as may appear. Ephes. 1. 17. meaning this saying of the Bishop to those that are admitted ministers: receive the holy Ghost. The place in that chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians proveth no such thing, these be the words: I cease not to give thanks for you making mention of you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord jesus Christ the father of glory, might give unto you the spirit of wisdom, and revelation through the knowledge of him. What sequel is there in this argument? S. Paul prayed that God would give to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdom and revelation through the knowledge of him: Ergo, this saying of the Bishop (receive the holy Ghost) to those that are admitted into the ministry, containeth manifest blasphemy. Such is your usual manner of reasoning. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 1 Upon the. 8. leaf, M. Doctor saith he seethe nothing how the place of the Ephes. maketh any thing against this manner of speech of the Bishop; (receive the holy Ghost) and yet it maketh thus much, that for as much as the Apostles did use to pray that the grace of God might be given unto men, the Bishops should not use this manner of speech, which containeth the form of a commandment. Io. Whitgifte, This is far from proving the words to contain a manifest blasphemy. Of Tract. 4. Cap. 2. the. 4. Divis. the manner of speaking these words, upon what consideration the Bishops use the same form, and that they may do it, I have showed before. Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 9 All this is added: Neither is the controversy betwixt them and us as they would bear the world in hand: as for a cap, a tippet, or a surplice, but for greater matters concerning a true ministery and regiment of the Church according to the word. Which things once established, the other melt away of themselves: and yet consider I pray you, whether their own argument doth not choke themselves, for even the very name of trifles doth plainly declare that they aught not to be maintained in Christ's church: and what shall our Bishops win by it? forsooth that they be maynteyners of trifles, and trifling Bishops, consuming the greatest part of their time in those trifles, whereas they should be better occupied. We strive for true religion and government of the Church, and show you the right way to throw out Antichrist both head and tail, and that we will not so much as communicate with the tail of the beast: But they after they have thrust out antichrist by the head, go about to pull him in again by the tail, cunningly colouring it, lest any man should espy his foot steps, as Cacus did when he stolen the oxen. What other men have done, I know not, but for my part, I always suspected & partly knew, that some of you had greater matters Great matters pretended not yet uttered. in hand, and of more importance than cap, tippet, and surplice, which surely was one of the first causes that moved me to be more earnest against you, than I was accustomed: for I did understand that you were hatching opinions tending not only to Anabaptisme, but to the overthrow of the Gospel, & disturbing the quiet state of this church: and yet who knoweth not that you have made the cap, and surplice your pretence hitherto, until now of late when you see almost all men condemn your folly. You say, we choke ourselves with our own argument, for even the very name of trifles doth plainly declare, that they aught not to be maintained in Christ's church. Surely of themselves they be but trifles, as all other external Ceremonies and indifferent things be: it is the circumstances that maketh them no trifles, but matters of weight: For things indifferent being commanded thus or so to be used by the Magistrate (not as necessary to salvation and iussification, but as convenient and necessary for order and decency) be not now trifles. And whosoever without a lawful urgent cause, or in a case of necessity doth break the law made of them, showeth himself a disordered person, disobedient, a contemner of lawful authority, and a wonder of his weak brother's conscience. And if any man shall say, that this is to bring us again in bondage of the law, and to deprive us of our liberty: I answer, no: for it is not a matter of justification but of order: and to be under a law, is no taking away of Christian liberty. Christian liberty what it is. For the Christian liberty is not a licence to do what thou list, but to serve God in newness of mind, & that for love, not for servile fear. Of themselves therefore they be but trifles, but being commanded by the Magistrate to be used, or not to be used, they are no trifles, no more than it was for women to come into the Church bareheaded, or a man to pray having his cap on his head, after that S. Paul had made an order to the contrary. And therefore these scoffs and flouts (And what shall our Bishops win by it? forsooth that they be maynteyners of trifles, and trifling Bishops, consuming the greatest part of their time in these trifles, whereas they should be better occupied) might with more commendation of your modesty have been well forborn. They see your doings tend not only to contention but to confusion: not only to disobedience towards the laws of the Prince, but also to dangerous errors, yea to the overthrow of Religion: & therefore they are neither maynteyners of trifles, nor trifling Bishops, but wise, discrete, vigilant, and learned Fathers, which seek to maintain peace, preserve good order, defend the authority of lawful laws, and in time suppress erroneous doctrine. You rather spend the time in trifles, when you might be better occupied, for you (omitting all other necessary points of doctrine, and invective Sermons. profitable exhortations to good life) stuff your sermons, and furnish your table talk with nothing else, but with bitter invectives against those rites, as though they were matters of damnation, and against those learned and discrete ministers of the word, who (according to their duty using of them) seek in deed to beat down Antichrist to plant necessary points of Religion in men's hearts, and to teach Unfrutefull sermons. repentance with newness of life: which your unfruitful, froward, and contentious dealing, rejoiceth the Papist, discrediteth the sound and learned preacher, offendeth the godly, woundeth the weak, worketh contempt of Magistrates and superiors in the hearts of the hearers, destroyeth that which other men build, and finally doth good to none. For what fruit can there come to the hearers, by inveighing continually against Cap, Tippet, Surplice, Ring in marriage, women's white kerchers, bagpipes, funeral sermons, mourning apparel. etc. Bishops, Preachers, Magistrates, Prince? These and such like be only the common places, you entreat of. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 2. Upon the ninth leaf he hath sundry grievous accusations and charges of disorder, disobedience, and contempt, against those which refuse the apparel, and laboureth to persuade that they are great and weighty matters. But his proofs were spent before. Io. Whitgifte. The proofs that I have here used gawles you shrewdly, & will not be answered with such disdain: let the learned Reader consider of them, and mark how well you have spoken for yourself. Answer to the Additions. etc. Fol. 1. There is added Portuis, for where before they said that our book of Common prayers was culled and picked out of that popish dunghill the mass-book, now upon better advisement, they say that it was culled out of the portuis and Mass book. It derogateth nothing from the book of Common prayers, because something therein is in the portuis and mass-book, no more than it derogateth from the scriptures, that some portion of them, as the whole Psalms, and certain other portions of the Epistles, Gospels, and other Scripture, be in the same: neither are they allowed because they be in the portuis and mass-book, but because they be either Scripture, or most agreeable thereunto. They also add in the first reason, that the coming of women in veils to be Churched, is not commanded by law, but yet the abuse to be great, by reason that superstition is grown thereby in the hearts of many, and other are judged that use it not. This is an argument of their former rashness, but not worthy any answer, especially being confessed to be without the book. For the. 120. Psalm. is now quoted the. 121. Psalm, which I have also corrected before. Fol. 2. For the. 26. of Math. is noted the. 28. And this also I corrected in answering that place. Where it was before, and minister a Sacrament, now is added, according to their appointment, to what purpose I know not. There is also added in the same leaf these words: are not the people well nodified think you, when the homely of sweeping the church is read unto them: Surely such flouting terms are used of none but of nodies in deed, and such as are more meet to be fools in plays, where they may jest, than to be platformers of churches, in whom wisdom, learning, gravity & godliness is to be required: I know no Homely entitled of sweeping the Church, one there is of repairing and keeping clean of churches: whether it edify or not, I refer to the wise and discrete Reader to judge, when he hath perused it. Before it was in that second reason, for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they Fol. 3. Apocrypha. aught rather to be kept close than to be uttered: Now it is, for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they were read in secret, & not openly: This is some correction of their former rashness. But of this matter, that is, of reading Homilies in the Church, I have spoken before. I omit. 2. Tim. 3. vers. 6. which is now vers. 19 & 2. Pet. 1. vers. 20. which is now vers. 19 20. 21. For these be not matters of any great importance, & they be quoted to prove a matter not doubted of among us. In the former edition & fourth reason, it is thus written: In this book we are enjoined to receive the Communion kneeling, which beside that it hath in it a show of papistry, doth not so well express the mystery of this holy Supper. For as in the old Testament eating the paschal Lamb standing, signified a readiness to pass: even so in receiving it now sitting, according to the example of Christ, we signify a rest, that is, a full finishing through Christ, of all the ceremonial law, and a perfect work of redemption wrought that giveth rest for ever, and so we avoid also the danger of Idolatry. In the second Edition these words be thus altered: In this book we are enjoined to receive the Communion kneeling, which beside that it hath in it a show of popish Idolatry, doth not so well express a Supper, neither agreeth it so well with the institution of Christ, as sitting doth: not that we make sitting a thing of necessity belonging unto the Sacrament, neither all firm we that it may not be received otherwise, but that it is more near the institution, and also a mean to avoid the danger of Idolatry. Here is the signification Correction. of sitting (which they before made) clean dashed out, as a thing unadvisedly before put in. It is also here granted that the Communion may be received otherwise than sitting, with other circumstances, whereof they have now better considered. Surely this is a great alteration upon such a sudden: & I would hardly have been persuaded that these men would so soon have discredited themselves by their inconstancy. But peradventure the self same had not the correction of the book which were the first penners of it, and therefore how they will like of this correction, it may be doubted. But although the words in the text be altered, yet the quotations in the margin remain still: Belike they are to be applied as it pleaseth the platformers. All this is added in the seventh reason: But some will say that the baptism of Fol. 4. women is not commanded by law, if it be not, why do you suffer it, & wherefore are the children so baptised accordingly? common experience teacheth that it is used almost in all places, & few speak against it: & this I am sure of, that when it was put in the book, that was the meaning of the most part, that were then present, and so it was to be understanded, as common practice without controlment doth plainly declare. All these be but conjectures. divers things be suffered & in many places used without controlment, which notwithstanding by no law be commanded. What the meaning was of those that penned the book, I know not, neither as I think do you. And surely for common practice I can say little, but for mine own experience this I dare affirm, that I have not known one child so baptized in places where I have had to do, not not since the beginning of the Q. majesties reign. I speak not of the thing itself, but only of your conjectures: I Baptizing by women not collected out of the book. think if the circumstances of the book be well considered, it will appear that the meaning is, that private baptism is rather to be ministered by some minister (which in the time of necessity may soon be come by) than by any woman. But in this point I submit my judgement to such as better know the meaning of the book? (being penners thereof) than I do. In the same leaf & ninth reason speaking of certain things used about marriage, they add these words: With divers other heathenish toys, in sundry countries, Toys about marriage. as carrying of wheat sheafs on their heads, & casting of corn, with a number of such like, whereby they make rather a may-game of marriage, than a holy institution of God. These be but toys in deed, used I know not where, not contained in any part of the book of common prayers, & therefore without my compass of defence. They lack matter when they stuff their book with such vain & frivolous trifles. In the. 10. reason to these words, (as for confirmation) is added, which the Fol. 5. Papists and our men say was in times past Apostolical, grounding their opinion perhaps upon some dream of Jerome: And in the same place these words be left out: We speak not of other toys used in it, & how far it differeth, & is degenerated from the first institution, they themselves that are learned can witness: And in the place hereof this is inserted, as though baptism were not already perfect, but needed confirmation, or as though the Bishop could give the holy Ghost. You yourself in effect have confessed in your first edition, that confirmation of children is very ancient, & that it hath been well instituted, for there you say that now it differeth & is degenerate Confirmation of children allowed at the last. from the first institution: But upon better advisement you have left out these words in your second Edition: as you have also left out these, with other toys used in it, whereby you confess (contrary to your former sentence) that the confirmation of Children now used is without any toys. Howsosoever it pleaseth you to account Hieromes judgement (touching the antiquity of confirmation) a dream: yet his dream may be of as much credit with wise men, as your bore denial of the same. The words The end of confirmation. that you have added in the second place might well have been spared: for you know that confirmation now used in this Church is not to make baptism perfect, but partly to try how the godfathers & Godmothers have performed that which was enjoined them when the children were baptized: partly that the children themselves (now being at the years of discretion, & having learned what their Godfathers & Godmothers promised for them in baptism) may with their own mouth & with their own consent openly before the church ratify & confirm the same, & also promise' that by the grace of God they will evermore endeavour themselves faithfully to observe keep such things as they by their own mouth & confession have assented unto. And this reason is alleged among other even in the book of common prayers. And that it is not to make baptism perfect, the book of common prayers itself declareth in these words: And that no man shall think any detriment shall come to Children by deferring of their confirmation, he shall know for truth that it is certain by God's word that children being baptized, have all things necessary for their salvation, & be undoubtedly saved. You add, as though the Bishop could give the holy Ghost: the Bishop may use the ceremony used by the Apostles, that is, imposition of hands, & may safely say this godly prayer contained in the book: Defend O Lord this child with the heavenly grace, that he may continued thy for ever, and daily increase in thy holy spirit, more and more, until he come unto thy everlasting kingdom. Amen. And other such godly prayers there conteived. Of any other kind of giving the holy ghost, there is no mention in that book, & therefore these additions might very well have been leftout of your libel. To the end of the eleventh reason, these words be added, and open our eyes that we may see what that good and acceptable will of God is, and be more earnest to provoke his glory: to the which I only answer, Amen. In the end of the. 12. there is something left out which they have placed in the. 13. reason: but it is answered before. There is nothing added or altered worth the noting: only in the Fol. 6. fifteenth reason, where they said before that we honoured Bishops by the titles of kings: now they have recanted that, and condemned themselves of an untruth, for they have left out that title. Fol. 7. In the seventh leaf and 19 reason these words be left out, banners and bells: which argueth that they were before untruly said to be used in gang week: But to lie, is a small matter with these men. For lords grace of York, there is the Archbishop of York. The cause of Fol. 8. this alteration I know not. When you say that you strive for true Religion & government of the Church, etc. Fol. 9 You say, that you do that, which is to be wished you should do. But your doings tend to the defacing of true Religion, & overthrow of the right government of the Church, & although you be not the head of Antichrist, yet are you his tail: for the tail of the beast, (as learned Tail of Antichrist what it is. men say) be false Prophets, Hypocrites, such as stir up Schisms & factions among true Christians, and by pretence of zeal, by cloaked and coloured means, seek to draw into the church Antichrist backward, as Cacus did the oxen into his den. Io. Whitgifte. To these things the Replier hath given his consent as it should seem by his silence. ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition, and untruly said (of the fautors of that Admonition) to be falsified. To the end of the second Admonition there is joined A reproof of certain Articles, collected (as it is thought) by the Bishops, (for so they say) out of a little book entitled, An Admonition to the Parliament. etc. But as I think, it may rather be termed, a recantation, or (if you will) a reformation or mitigation of certain articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne, & without learning or discretion printed. 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold & affirm that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church. come to the outward face of a church agreeable to God's word. Here you find fault that this word scarce is left out. Indeed this word scarce was written in the margin of divers copies of the first Admonition: whether it were so in all, or not, I know not: no more do I whether any such collection (as you pretend) was made. But what need you so much stick in words, when the thing is manifest? for in effect they deny as much as that proposition importeth: they wholly condemn the ministry, the ceremonies, & the government of this church. They say the sacraments be full of corruptions: & in their second Admonition Folly 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly mangled & profaned: they utterly condemn our order & manner of common prayer: yea in effect our doctrine also, for in their second Admonition, Fol. 7 they say, that although some truth be taught by some preachers, yet no preacher may without danger of the laws, utter all truth comprised in the book of God. What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church? A man may truly speak as much of the romish church: for some truth is taught by some Papists: yea some truth is taught by some jew & Turk. When therefore you say, that in this church neither the word is truly preached, nor the sacraments sincerely ministered, nor yet Ecclesiastical discipline (which three in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is said to be the outward marks, whereby a true Christian church is known) and also condemn our ministry as Popish and unlawful, with the whole government of Vix▪ signifieth sometime non. our Church (as you do in plain terms) may it not be truly said, that you affirm us in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreeable to God's word? Furthermore what doth this word scarce help the matter, doth it not import as much? it is a rule in Philosophy, Quod vix fit non fit, that which is scarce done is not done. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answer to the Articles collected out of the Admonition, it is made in the Reply unto M. Doctor's book, where I have showed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise, than eytherit meameth or speaketh, whereunto I will refer the Reader. And albeit I have showed how untrue it is, that the Admonition, affirmeth that there is no church in England, yet I can not pass by the secret Philosophy, whereby M. Doctor would prove, that the Authors of the Admonition affirm it. For saith he by the rule of Philosophy. Quod vix fit, non fit, that which is scarce done is not done. I say this is secret, for it was never taught, neither in Academia, nor in stoa, nor Lyceo, I have red Quod fere fit, non fit, that which is almost done is not done. But I never remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of. And besides that in our tongue, those things which are said to be scarce, are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be. As when a man saith that there is scarce a man alive, etc. the scripture also useth that phrase of speech, of things which are, as when it saith, the just man shall scarce be saved, it doth not mean, that just men shall not be saved. The rest of that I have answered. Io. Whitgifte. I prove by their own manifest words, that they in deed affirm that we in England are not yet come to the outward face of a Church agreeable to God's word, all which proofs you omit and let pass cavilling only at this word (scarce,) which is a manifest What the word (vix) importeth. argument of a wrangler. And yet is not this manner of speaking. Quod vix sit, non sit, so strange Philosophy, as you would gladly have it, for this word (vix) either signifieth with violence, & great difficulty to do a thing: or else it is referred to the time: or else it signifieth (none) as in ovid vix Priamus tanti, that is, non tanti Priamus, as Donatus doth expound it. I think you will not have it to be taken in the first signification, by the Authors of the Admonition, for then there is no sense in their words: if it be taken in either of the latter significations (as it must of necessity be) than the Philosophy is not secret▪ but open and known to every young Grammarian. In our English phrase, it is commonly taken for non, as when we say a thing is Vix, in english commonly taken for (non). scarce done, we signify that is not yet done. Likewise when a man saith that he is scarce well, he means that he is not well. He hath scarce made an end of his sermon▪ that is, he hath not made an end of his sermon. It is scarce. ix. of the clock, that is, it is not yet ix. of the clock. Even so we are scarce come to the outward form of a church rightly reform. etc. that is, we are not yet come. etc. Every child that can speak knoweth this to be so. When the scripture says, that a just man shall scarce be saved: this word (vix) is taken in the first signification, that is, with great difficulty, & in this signification it is oftentimes taken in the scripture: but so can it not be in their manner of speech. Answer to certain Articles. etc. 2. They will have the ministers to be called, allowed, and placed by the people. You say, that this Article is falsified: & yet their words in that place of their Admonition be these: Then election was made by the common consent of the whole Church. And a little after: Then no minister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people. Wherefore the collection is very true, and they belike ashamed of their doings: and therefore they have corrected these assertions in their second edition of the first Admonition on this sort: Then election was made by the elders, with the common consent of the whole church. Surely these men be past shame, else would they not deny their own written assertions. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. And whereas he saith that it is all one, to say that the election of the minister must be made by (*) A manifest 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 you leave out this word (whole.) the church, & to say, It must be made by the people: it is a great oversight to make the part & whole all one, seeing the people be but one part of the church, & the minister and the other governors are, albeit not the greatest, yet the principalest part. I grant that sometimes a part is taken for the whole, and so we do call sometimes the governors of the church, the church, and sometimes the people: But where the question is of the propriety of these speeches (the Church and the people) there all men that have any judgement, can easily put a difference. Io. Whitgifte. What I have said, how truly you have reported my words, & how aptly you have replied to my Answer, even the very simple Reader may easily understand: & therefore for answers to this, I shall only desire him to compare our words together: and then it shall easily appear how you have falsified my words: for whereas I gather out of these words of the Admonition, Election was made by the common consent of the whole Church, therefore their collection is true which say, that they would have the ministers to be called, allowed, & placed by the people, you either of purpose, or by oversight (which is very usual with you) have left out the word (whole) & make as though I should say, that it is all one to say that the election must be made by the church, & to say, it must be made by the people: & should confounded the people & the church, the part with the whole: which is a manifest untruth. But by the way it is to be noted, that you seem to separate the people from the election of ministers, for you will not have the word (Church) in the Admonition to comprehend the people, else why have you these words, when the question is of the propriety of these speeches, (the church and the people)? and surely it may seem that this is their meaning, because in their second edition they say the election was made by the Elders, with the common consent of the people, so that, the election should be made by the Elders, and the people only should consent to the election: which is contrary to the rest of your assertion. Answer to certain Articles. etc. 4. Lin. 9 They hold that a Bishop at no hand hath authority to ordain ministers. This Article you confess to be truly gathered: but now you make this gloss (not alone) and yet in their Admonition it is in flat terms, that the ordering of ministers doth at no hand appertain to Bishops. 6. Lin. 28. They will have the ministers at their own pleasure to preach without licence. This is true by your own confession, for you will have no other licence, but your calling to the ministery, which must be (as you say) by the congregation. Here you shut out both the Prince's licence, and the Bishops. 7. Lin. 13. fol. 17. Lin. 6. pag. 1. Whatsoever is set down in this Article is manifestly affirmed in the Admonition, & your answer to it is frivolous, and nothing to the purpose. For in the first part of the Admonition▪ Fol. 2. pag. 1. These be the words: In those days known by voice, learning & doctrine: now they must be discerned from other, by Popish & Antichristian apparel, as cap, gown, tippet, etc. And in the second part speaking of the apparel prescribed to ministers, they say on this sort: There is no order in it but confusion: no comeliness, but deformity: no obedience, but disobedience both against God and the Prince. Are you not then ashamed to say, that this Article (They will have the minister discerned from others by no kind of apparel, and the apparel appointed they term Antichristian, and the apparel appointed by the Prince, disobedience against the Prince) is falsified? Fol. 4. Lin. 1. Pag. 2. They will have all Archbishops, Bishops, Archdeacon's, etc. together with their offices, jurisdictions, courts, and livings clean taken away, and with speed removed. You say that this is falsified in part, because there is left out Lords grace, justice of peace, and Quorum, etc. Surely the Article is truly collected in every point, and plainly affirmed in the. 2. leaf of the first part of that Admonition. As for your gibing words that follow, they be but wind: I warrant you the confutation will abide the light, & the Author will show his face, which you are ashamed to do. 9 Lin. 9 The Article is truly collected: look in the first part of that Admonition, Fol. 2. Pag. 2. & Fol. 3. And in the second part of that Admonition. Fol. 1. pag. 2. Fol. 5. pag. 1. 17. Lin. 12. The collection is true: for their words be these: They simply as they received it from the Lord, we sinfuily mixed with man's inventions and devices. And therefore you untruly say, that it is falsified. 19 Lin. 16. They will have no Godfathers nor Godmothers, you say that this Article is also utterly falsified: what mean you so to forget your sslfe Is it not thus written in the first part of the first Admonition, o. 3 pa. 2. Godfathers and Godmothers once disallowed & after recanted. And as for Baptism it was enough with them if they had water, and the party to be baptized, faith, and the minister to preach the word, and minister the Sacraments. Now we must have surplice devised by Pope Adrian, Interrogatories ministered to the infant, Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus, & c? How say you? are not Godfathers and Godmothers here disallowed? wherefore be they else in this place recited? or why are they here ascribed to Pope Higinus? will you now allow any thing in the Church invented by the Pope? In deed in the second edition of this first Admonition, these words, Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus, be clean left out, as I have before noted. Wherefore either you have not red the diversity of their editions, or else you are very impudent. 22. Folly 8. in fine. I marvel why you say, that this collection is falsified? Look Fol. ult. page 2. of the first part of the Admonition. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. The rest of those articles are answered in the discourse of the book. Besides that, the fanlts which are found with the untrue gathering of them, are not taken away by M. Doctor, but only in confident & bold asseverations. And if I should say any thing, I should but repeat their words. Io. Whitgifte. The judgement hereof must also be referred to the Reader, who may conjecture, that you have little to say, against any thing that I have in this part affirmed. Out of the second treatise called A view of Popish abuses remaining. Fol. 10. pag. 1 lin. 33. Reading of service or Homilies in the church is as evil as playing on a stage, and worse too. You say that this is falsified. Lord God what mean you? In the second leaf of that book these be their direct words, Reading is not feeding, but it is as evil as playing upon a stage, and worse too. To the same effect they speak divers times, & so do the Authors of the second Admonition. Surely either they are ashamed of their doings, or else you have not with diligence read their books. Thus briefly to have answered to your unjust accusation of falsely collecting certain articles out of the book entitled. An Admonition. etc. shall be sufficient. Other articles which you say be gathered out of the same book, and confess to be true, I have omitted, because they be sufficiently answered by me in the confutation: and your confirmation of them is usual and childish. I would wish that such as be wise men and in authority, would diligently consider that which you answer to the Article, Folly 14. (as you quote it) touching the government of the Church, and the authority of Princes and their laws: and likewise that which is written concerning the same matters in the second Admonition: I will make them neither better nor worse, but wish the Magistrates, well to mark your judgements and opinions in these matters, and to foresee the worst. The Lord bless this Realm of England with the continuance of his Gospel, long life of the Queen's majesty, and peace both foreign and domestical. Amen. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered. ¶ A view of the second Admonition. T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. ult. In the view of the second admonition M. Doctor doth as it seemeth of purpose, cull out those things which he hath spoken on before, and in repeating of them, referreth his Reader unto his book. divers other matters there are of great weight which he speaketh not of, if he do approve them. (*) Why have you not done so yourself 〈◊〉 your Reply. it had been well he had sign fyed his liking: if he do not, that he had confuted them. And if he traveled so heavily of bringing forth of this book, that it was as heavy a burden unto him, as Solomon saith, a fond word is unto an unwise man: he might have taken day to answer it. Now by this slender answering or rather not answering at all, but only ask how this & that is proved (whereas being proved it is unreproved of him) he doth his cause more harm than he is ware of. For unless his profess he joined with his expulsions, imprisonments, & with all that racket which he maketh in Cambridge, to the utter most of that his authority will stretch unto, he may be well assured, that their driving out will draw in the truth, and their imprisonment will set the truth at greater liberty, and thereby prove itself to be neither Papistry, nor Anabaptistry, Donatistrie, Catharisme, nor any other heresy, which are by due correction repressed. But as for the truth of God, the more it is laden, the strayghter it standeth, and the more it is kept under, the more it euforceth itself to rise, and will undoubtedly get up, how great so ever the stone be which is laid upon it. Io. Whitgifte. I have omitted no matter of substance unanswered in either of the Admonitions. The words you here utter be contumelious: you only rail, you answer not. I never expelled any of degree since my first coming to Trinity College, but two: the one for pertinacy, the other for perjury. And yet I might have done lawfully and justly, and intend to do if the statutes whereunto I have sworn, do thereunto enforce me. But by your often objecting this unto me, men may understand what conscience it is that makes you so zealous, and what divinity it is that you so carnestly profess: scil. a mind full of revengement, and a face puffed up with arrogancy and vainglory. A brief view of the second Admonition. I have also received a second Admonition to the Parliament, the author whereof undertaketh to teach how to reform those things which the other Admonition found fault with. I shall not need to make any long discourse of it, neither will I The answer to the first admonition is an answer to this also. Only I thought it good to note unto you, that this book consists of these points especially: first it justifieth the authors of the first Admonition, and seemeth to complain that they have not justice, because they appealing to the highest Court of Parliament, their appeal would not be received. And therefore they say the Scripture is plain, that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorra in the day of judgement▪ than for such a court, meaning the court of Parliament, and they quote for that purpose in the margin the. 10. of Matth, verse. 14. 15. which is a shameful profanation of the Scripture, and an egregious slander to that honourable court. The justness of the appeal I leave to the justices, and skilful Lawyers to be considered of, for it is not within the compass of my faculty. Only I think that that scroll can have no defence of Parliament: first, because it is a Libel: secondly, because it was published in print before the Parliament was made privy unto it. Io. Whitgifte. Not one word said against this. ¶ A view of the second Admonition. In this part these words of there's would be well considered, Politic Ma chevils. there is no other thing to be looked for, than some speedy vengeance to light upon the whole land, provide as well as the politic Machevils of England think they can, though God do his worst: It would be known whom they mean by these politic Machevils: for they envy all men of great authority, wit, and policy. T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 1. 2. And albeit he had no leisure to answer the matters which required his answer, yet he carpeth at by matters, and asketh who are meant by the politic Machevils. What if they mean (*) This is a clake, but their words will not hear it. M. Doctor, and such other, which under the pretence of policy, would overthrow the Church, and that by those things which have scarce a show of policy, and in deed overturn the policy and government of the Lord. And I pray you tell me M. Doctor, who be those superiors which contemn, hate, discourage, and frump those which execute the laws of the Realm, of the which you speak in the. 88 page. And where you add by and by, that they envy all men of great authority, wit, and policy, I have answered this speech before. And truly I think there is not in Mesheke so slanderous a tongue to be found, as this is, nor the juniper cotesare not comparable with it. Io. Whitgifte. Nay they can not mean it of me, nor of such as I am: for I have not to do with the politic affairs of this land, neither am I either of Court, or Parliament. But I think their words following do clearly seclude me, and all other of my degree, for thus they add immediately: But shut God out of your assemblies, and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you have done nothing therein as you aught, not though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 been solicited, but have suffered them that were your solicitors, to be molested. You shall 〈◊〉 both that you aught to have sought the kingdom of God first, and also you shall find, if 〈◊〉 consider not your own ways in your hearts, how you think it a time to build seeled houses, to devise laws for the preservation and prosperity of your common wealth, and neglect God's Church, leave that waist. etc. These words of there's shutteth me out from the number of their Machevils. Well, it is a point that would be considered. That which I speak in the. 88 page, I am ready to give account of, when I am thereunto by due authority called. Neither am I afraid in time and place, to speak that which I think. In the rest of this Reply you do but utter your impatiency, and untemperateness of your speech, and therefore I will dismiss you, as David did Shemei. A view of the second Admonition. The second part consists only of railing words, and slanderous Slander 〈◊〉 the Church of England. accusations, first against this whole Church of England, for they say, that we are scarce come to the outward face of a Church rightly reform, and that although some truth be taught by some preachers, yet no Preacher may without great danger of the laws utter all truth comprised in the word of God. etc. And a little after they add and say, that the truth in a manner doth but peep out behind the screen: which speeches as they be very untrue (for who knoweth not that the Gospel is wholly, publicly, and freely preached in this Church of England) so they be slanderous, neither can the Papists speak any worse. In this part also, to prove that this is no true saying in matters of policy and government, it is not repugnant to the word of God, and therefore it may be used: is alleged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not with me, is against me. But they have forgotten the words of Christ, Mat. 9 Qui non est adversus nos, pro nobis est: He that is not against us, is with us. Whereupon we may much better conclude, that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture, is consonant to the Scripture, than they can do the contrary of the former place. Notwithstanding in both these places (as I think) Christ speaketh rather of men and people, than of things themselves. In the same part their speech of the Queen's supremacy is very Supremacy of the Queen secretly denied. suspicious, and it would be demanded of them what they think in deed of her majesties authority in ecclesiastical matters, for in this poyut they have hitherto dealt very subtly and closely: notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceived of such as diligently consider their books. Likewise in this part they note certain contrarietics in this Church, as betwixt the Communion book and Injunctions, touching wafers: the Communion book and advertisements concerning Church vestures: the Canons and the Pontifical, in not ordering of ministers sine titulo, and such like matters of no importance, which justify rather this Church, than otherwise: for surely if they had had weightier matters, they would no doubt have alleged them. But in these same matters they are much deceived, for as I suppose, in matters of ornaments of the Church, and of the ministers thereof, the Queen's Majesty, together with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical, have authority by Act of Parliament, to altar and appoint such rites and ceremonies as shall from time to time be thought to them most convenient. To be short, in that point they say, that in things of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence, following the general rules of Scripture for order, as in appointing time and place for prayers. etc. Which is a very true saying: and flat contrary to all that is said either Contrariety in these men. in the first Admonition, or in this second: for if such things may be appointed in the Church, not being expressed in the word of God, but depending upon this general rule, Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Corinth. 14. then surely the Magistrate hath authority in such matters, to appoint what shall be thought unto them most convenient, so that it be not repugnant to the word of God: except you will make this the question: whether in such matters we aught to be directed by the Magistrates, and governors of the Church, or by every private Pastor in his several charge. Io. Whitgifte. All this is let slip without answer. The view of the second Admonition. The third part of this book condemneth the degrees of Doctors, Degrees in the Universities condemned. Bachelors of Divinity, and Masters of Art in the Universities, and slanderously, untruly, and opprobriously speaketh of the Universities, and such as be in them: presumptudusty prescribing a manner of reformation for the same, when as I think verily they know not what Universities mean. But here we may note that they seek to overthrow all learning and degrees of learning. The same part also very slaunderonsly and unchristianly raileth on some Bishops by name, and the rest of the Clergy, charging them most untruly with sundry things: but because it is done by way of libeling (a devilish kind of revenge) therefore I trust godly and wise men will esteem of it accordingly. Besides slanderous reports, and opprobrious words, there is nothing in this part worthy the answering. T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition. as if it condemned schools and Universities, with all manner degrees, when it doth but inveigh against degrees given of custom rather than of right, rather by money, than by merit of learning, and when titles of Doctorship be given to those which have not the office of a Doctor, and oftentimes to those which can not do the office if they had it, and when men do seek vainglory in them and such like. Io. Whitgifte. Read and mark their words, page. 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they use (after they have in most bitter manner inveighed against such degrees) which is this: These vain names become such vain men, but the Church of God they become not, and are forbidden by our Saviour. etc. Their own words be a sufficient declaration of their meaning, and so is yours uttered before, a plain proof of your consenting unto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them, and condemning of all degrees of School, properly pertaining to Divinity. A view of the second Admonition. In the fourth part the Author taketh upon him to set down A new plat form. a platform of a Church, to prescribe the manner of electing ministers, of their exercises, of their equality, of the government of the Church. etc. Which surely being well considered, 〈◊〉 appear not only a confused platform, without any sound warraute of God word, but also a fantastical devise, tending to the overthrow of learning, religion, yea the whole state and government of the common wealth. But because I have before in the confutation of the first Admonition, spoken sufficiently of all these matters, therefore I will only note one or two things in this part to let you understand that these platformers build not upon that foundation that they would have others so strictly bond unto: for let them tell me upon One minister not to meddle in another man's charge. what Scripture this is grounded: Let no one minister meddle in any cure save his own, but as he is appointed by common consent of the next conference, or Counsels Provincial or national, or further (if it may fall out so) general of all Churches reform▪ Or this: That the ministers must be equal, and that some must be governed by all, and not all by some? Or that, The Pastor or teacher in every congregation aught to be the Principal of the consistory of their congregation? Or that, Many parishes may be joined in one, and have one Pastor, and yet that it is unlawful for one Pastor to have many Parishes? Or that, In the mean while till preachers increase to furnish the places unfurnished, upon conference among the learned, some discrete man be appointed to make some entire prayer. etc. Io. Whitgifte. Passed over in silence. A view of the second Admonition. Or that it is evil so oft to repeat, Glory be to the father. etc. Lord have mercy upon Repetition of prayer is not evil. us. etc. Or the Lords prayer: for the text which they allege for the same, Math. 6. is wickedly wrested, and corruptly alleged: for the words of Christ be not (as they translate them) when you pray▪ use not vain repetitions, but when you pray, use not much babbling: whereby not the oft repetition of good prayers, but vain babbling in prayers, that is, many words without faith, and the inward affection of the mind, is forbidden. Paul. 1. Thes. 5. saith, Pray continually, And Christ Matth. 6. saith, Pray on this manner, Our father, etc. So that of necessity we must oftentimes repeat the Lord's prayer, if we will believe Christ and his Apostle Paul. But Lord what strange doctrine is this, to call Glory be to the father. etc. Lord have mercy upon us. etc. Our father. etc. Popish? Surely these men (as I suppose) be not well in their wits. T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 3 For the repetition of Gloria patri. etc. I have spoken sufficiently before: but what spirit is it that calleth this translation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (use not vain repetitions) a wicked wresting of S. Mathewes place in his sixt chapter? what razor is this that cueteth so sharp? Knoweth he against whom, and against the excellent learning, and singular piety of how many he eaketh? For this is the translation of those learned and godly men, which translated the Bible. which is commonly called the Geneva Bible: and is this a wicked wresting? Admit it were not translated exactly, to the word of the Evangelist: is it therefore a wresting, and a wicked wresting? 〈◊〉 hat (I will not say wicked) but false conclusion or doctrine can be grounded of this tr nslation? And they that translate it thus, have not only the authority of the Lexicons to confirm their translation, which show that this word was taken up in reproach of a foolish Poet called Battus, which used to repeat one thing many times: but they have also the circumstance of the place to warrant it. For the reason which our aviour Christ useth to draw men from this fault , leadeth to this translation, and can not stand with that sense which M. Doctor setteth down. For how hung these together: you shall not babble many words without faith. etc. because your heavenly father knoweth what you have need of before you ask? It is unlike first, that our saviour Christ would speak thus (babble not many words without ayth. etc.) when as rather he would have forbidden them to speak any one word without faith. etc. For if he should speak thus, he should seem to have allowed a prayer without faith, so that it were not conceived in many words. And again, if (as M. Doctor saith) this had been the proposition, which our saviour Christ dissuaded from, that they should not babble many words without faith. etc. he would never h we added this reason (for your heavenvly father knoweth. etc.) for neither is he father unto any such. And he would rather have said as S. James in the first chap. saith, that they should be sure to receive nothing, because they ask not in faith. Now as this reason can not stand with M. Doctor's interpretation: so doth it well agree ee with the translation of the Geneva Bible. For what could be more fitly said to drive the disciples from this vain repetition, than to say that the heavenly father knoweth. etc. and that it is not with the Lord as it is with men, that must have a thing oftentimes spoken, or ever they can understand it? Furthermore what a reason is his: we must repeat the lord's prayer oftentimes, therefore we must repeat it oftentimes in hall e an hour, and one in the neck of an other? And if S. Paul's place to the Thes. (pray continually) be referred unto the saying of the Lords prayer (as M. Doctor would bear us in hand) than it is not lawful for us to use any other words, than those which our saviour Christ used. But I could never yet learn that those words bind us of necessit e any more unto the reap tion of the lords prayer word for word, than unto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the scripture. And I would be loath to say that it were simply necessary, to use that just number of words, and neither more nor less any time, much less oftentimes in so small a space. For our saviour Christ doth not there give a prescript form of prayer whereunto he bindeth us: but giveth us a rule, and squire to frame all our prayers by, as I have before declared. I know it is necessary to pray, and to pray often. I kn we lso that in so few words it is impossible for any man to frame so pithy a prayer: And I confess that the Church doth well in concluding their prayers with the Lords prayer: but I stand upon this, that there is no necessity laid upon us to use these very words, and no more, and especially that the place of S. P le to the Thessalomans, doth lest of all prove it. As for M. Doctor's outcries he hath so often worn our ears with them, and that without cause, that I think by this tunc no man regardeth them. Io. Whitgifte. I do not say that so to translate the place is a wicked wresting or corrupt alleging of it: but this I say, that that place is wick lie wrested, and corruptly alleged 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inter reted. Beza. by the Adm nition, to improve the often rep titien of the Lords prayer. Neither do I think that translation to be so apt, as the other is. M. Beza in his notes upon this place of S. Mat. saith thus: Ne sit is loquaces 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, be not full of words. Vulg. Nolite multum loqui, do not babble much. Erasmus. Ne itis multiloqui, id est, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quo id m declaratur. Longae tamen preces hîc non damnantur, sed quae vanae sunt, inanes & super titiosae. Longa enim non est oratio in qua nihil redundat: centra vero brevis esse non potest, quae non proficiscitur ex nimo pio & fideli: Be not babblers or full of words, that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereby the same thing is signified: yet are not long prayers here condemned, but those that are vain, fond, & superstitious. For it is not a long prayer, wherein nothing is to much: on the other side it can not be short which proceedeth not out of a godly & faithful mind. And that this is the true interpretation of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it appeareth Erasmus. by that which followeth in the same place, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for they think to be herded for their much babbling. Upon the which words Erasmus giveth this note: Hîc non est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sed proprio usus est verbo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, veluti exponens quid dixerit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: here is not the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, but he useth the proper word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as it were expounding, what he ment by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. You see therefore that the one word expeundeth the other, which is the surest way of interpreting. M. Caluine upon the same place saith thus: Porro eorum stultitian reprehendit Caluine. Chris us, qui ut Deum persuadea t & exorent, multum verborum profundunt. Furthermore Christ reprehendeth their folly which do spend many words, that they may persuade and Now gl ssa. entreat God. And nova glossa ordinaria doth interpret the word in like manner. Ferunt Bat tum quendam fuisse in ptum Poetan, qui multis & vanis ad nauseam usque repetitis verbis Batt s a ba 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. poemata sua conscripserit, ad hoc unum in't ntus ut multus esset in verbis: unde sumptum sit verbum Battologizare, pro inaniter esse multiloquum. It is reported that there was a certain fooly she Poet called Battus, which written his verses with many and vain repeating of words, even unto the loathing of any man, being only bend unto this one thing, that he might have many words: of whom this word Battologizare was taken, for him that is full of vain words. By all which authorities & interpretations of these learned men, Christ doth not speak against the often repetition of the Lords prayer or any other godly prayers, but against vain babbling in prayers, & multiplying of words without faith, whether it be by often repeating or multiplying of them. And therefore also says M. Martyr, Quare at endendum Martyr in 1. Sam. 1. Babbling in prayer what it is. est multiloquium tum adhiberi non cum diu precamur, sed cum citra fidem & spiritum verbamultiplicamus: wherefore it is to be marked, that then is there much babbling, not when we pray long, but when we multiply words without faith and spirit. Neither is there any writer that doth otherwise interpret this place, not even those that translate it vain repetitions. And the reasons whereby you would overthrow this sense be words only & not reasons: Long oh yer r repetitions net 〈◊〉, but babli of word 〈◊〉 our faith . Math. 26. for who can think that Christ doth here condemn long prayers or many words, or the repetition of godly prayers (himself continuing in prayers a whole night in the mountain, & oftentimes repeating one & the same prayer, not long before he suffered his passion Math. 26 and willing us to pray continually, & not to be weary?) But that only he forbiddeth many words without faith, whether it be as I said by multiplying or by repeating: but what should we dally where the words of Christ be plain for he says, Verum orantes ne sitis multiloqui sicut Ethneci: Putant enim fore ut ob multiloquium suum Luke. 18. exaudiantur, Ne igitur efficiamini similes storum, novit enim pater vester. etc. But when you pray use not much babbling as the Heathen do, for they think that they are herded for their much babbling: be you not therefore like unto them: for your father knoweth whereof you have need Math. 6. before you ask of him. The words be manifest, all interpreters agree upon t est: and therefore this your dallying is but a profanation of them. If we repeat the lords prayer twenty times in half an hour, so it be done in Christ useth repetition of the same prayer. Math. 26. vers. 44. faith & zeal, it is not this multilo quium or vain repetitions that Chris e speaketh of in this place. Christ himself as I have said before, repeated thrice one prayer in the same words as it is evident Math. 26. which he would not ha' e do e if the faithful & zealous repetition of prayers, had been this much babbling or vain repetitions, where of he speaketh in this. 6. of Math. I do not say that the place of S. Paul. 1. Thes. 5. is to be understanded only of the lords prayer, but this is my saying, that for as much as we are commanded to pray continually by S. Paul in that place, & th' Lord hath said when you pray, pray on this manner, Our father which art in heaven. etc. Therefore the often repetition of this prayer being in faith & zeal, can not be accounted vain repetition or much babbling. I know it is lawful to use other godly prayers, besides it, neither have you ever herded me utter one word to the contrary: I know likewise that it is not only a prayer to be used, but also a rule to be followed in framing all our other prayers by, whatsoever. And yet a prayer it is, and a necessary prayer to be used, as the very words of Christ do declare. A view of the second Admonition. These & a number of other fancies they have in this book which they can not ground upon any scriptures, but by wring and wresting of them: and in deed their seeking is, to have all things framed according to their fancies, that they may be accounted planters and platformers of churches. I omit this that the author boasteth, that he and many others will set themselves against us, as the professed enemies of the church of Christ: For the matter is not great, neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwise with us, than the Anabaptistes, 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 theridamas H e likes have dealt with other Churches. This shallbe sufficient for an answer to the book, because all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former confutation. Io. Whitgifte. Nothing answered, neither is this proclamation of defence solved. A brief answer to certain Pamphlets spread abroad of late. I have of late received three little Pamphlets, the first as it were a preface to the other two, the second entitled, An exhortation to the Bishops, to deal brotherly with their brethren: The third, An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergy to answer a little book that came forth the last Parliament, and to other brethren to judge of it by God's word, until they see it answered, and not be carried away with any respect of men. The preface consists of these points especially: first by divers examples it is there declared, that the wicked and ungodly of this world, could never away with such as would reprove them for their manifest sins and ungodliness. Secondly, that this is the cause why these two treatises which were lately written and imprinted in the last Parliament time. etc. were of so many misliked, and the authors thereof so cruelly entreated and straightly imprisoned etc. Thirdly, it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authority, comparing them to false prophets, and to Pharisees. etc. Last of all it concindeth with threatening, that if they go forward in their sins, their doings shallbe with more bitterness of words, and plainness of speech thrown into their faces. The first is needless, for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath been the manner of such as were desperately wicked, not to suffer their sins openly to be reproved. The second is false, uncharitable, & slanderous, for the cause why the books be not esteemed (especially of the wise & learned) is the untrue doctrine contained in them, maintained with untrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures, and interlaced with opprobrious terms and railing speeches tending to the disquietness of the church, and overthrow of true religion. The authors thereof to be imprisoned, not for telling any man of his sins, but for writing libels against this whole church of England, against the book of common praer, against the ministry, against the sacraments, finally against the whole form and government of the church by the whole consent of this Realm established, and according to the rule of God's word. And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sins? where ever read you or herded you, that any of the Prophets or Apostles told men of their sins by libels? Surely libeling is no true way of reforming. that kind of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christ, but for the ministers of Satan. T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1 here he says the authors of the Admomtion are not punished, or their book misliked, for that it telleth of the faults in the church. or of the sins of men, but for that it maintaineth false doctrine, & for that they preferred a libel: for the doctrine, it appeareth by that which is said, what it is. And if he would define what a libel were▪ it were easy to answer unto the other point. If he mean because it was preferred without any name unto it, how will he answer (*) Forsoo h, 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison. to the example of S. john in the apocalypse, who reprehend ng the ministers oh divers churches▪ did not (a) A manifest untruth. put to his name unto his book. And to the writer of the Epistle unto the Hebrews▪ which was a singular instrument, and did not subscribe his epistle, wherein notwithstanding he sharply rebuketh divers faults amongst them. And yet S. john nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan. And if he call it a libel, because it useth some sharper speeches, surely all men see that his book deserveth then to be called a satire, having for tart words, bitter, and for one, twenty. But in what respect soever he calleth it a libel, he accuseth not so much the authors of the Admonition for preferring of it, as divers of the honourable house of Parliament, which did allow it. Io. Whitgifte. The comparison is very unequal and odious, that you make betwixt the holy books of the Scripture, indicted by the spirit of God, and reputed and taken as portions of the canonical scriptures, wherein only we have to seek the doctrine of salvation: and these railing, rude, uncharitable, and unlearned Admonitions. And yet in the one of them, that is in the Revelation you are foully overshot, for the name of john setteth his name to the apocalypse both in the beginning & end. the author of that book is expressed three times in the first chapter, and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was, though you would cavil about the multiplicity of the name. Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the book: wherefore you were not well advised when you set it down that S. john in the apocalypse did not put his name to his book. He saith in the. 1. cap. in the first verse, servo suo johanni, and in the. 4. verse joannes. 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia, and a little after. Ego joannes frater vester. etc. and in the last chap. Ego joannes qui audivi & vidi haec. The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it, neither doth the author thereof seek to defame or deface any body, as the authors of the Admonition do. If my book be comparable to either of the Admonitions in sharp and uncharitable speeches, prove it unto me by comparing them together, and surely I will like the worse both of my book and of myself: and confess that I have offended. Although I might excuse myself in saying that I have done it in the defence of the truth, and vendicating this Church of England from such untolerable slanders, as they burden it with. If any of the honourable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and form that it was published (which I am sure they did not, as you undutifully and untruly charge them) I will not excuse them: and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it: neither can their allowing of it, excuse it from being a libel, being not orderly in Parliament propounded, but disorderedly (I might say seditiously,) spread abroad in corners to the defamation of this whole state and Church of England, not to any reformation. But to satisfy your desire that would so gladly know what a libel is, I will tell A libel what it is. you in few words. An infamous libel is that, that is written in verse, or in prose, to that infamy & slander of any man, to the which the author dare not set his name. This is an infamous libel, & it most aptly agreeth to the book called an Admonition to the Parliament: So that by this definition your objection also of the book of the apocalypse, & of the epistle to the Hebrues is soon answered: for all those books are not libels which are published without the authors name, but those which are published to the infamy or slander of others, to the which the authors dare not set their names. An answer to certain Pamphlets. The third cometh of the same spirit that the second doth, that is, The libelers fitly compared to the Pharisies. of the spirit of arrogancy and malice: for it compareth godly, wise, zealous & learned bishops to idolatrous Priests, & to Pharisies: but indeed the conditions & qualities of the Pharisees do most aptly agreed with the authors of these Libels, & their adherents: for the Pharisies did all that they did, to be seen of men, & sought the commendation Description of a Pharisie. of the common people, as appeareth Math. 6. &. 23. & so do they: The Pharisies when they fasted disfigured their faces, & these walking in the streets, hung down their heads, look austerely, and in company sigh much, and seldom, or never laugh: the Pharisies strained out a gnat, and swallowed down a camel. And these men think it an heinous offence to wear a cap or a surplice, but in slandering and backbiting their brethren, in railing on them by libels, in contemning of superiors, and discrediting such as be in authority: to be short, in disquieting the Church and state, they have no conscience. The Pharisees separated themselves from the common sort of men, as more holy, and contemned the poor Publicans as sinners: And therefore some learned interpreters think, that they be called Pharisaei, quasi segregati, quòd vitae sanctimonia, à vulgi moribus & vita separati essent, non aliter Fost rus in dictionar. hebraico. atque monachi, quos Chartusianos vocant. They be called Pharisees as separated and divided from the common sort in holiness of life, much like unto the Monks, which be called Carthusians. And josephus says that they were called Pharisees, because they seemed to be more holy than other, and more Lib. 1 cap. 2. de bello judaico. Lib. antiquit. Tom. 2. lib. 18. cap. 2. Tom. 2. lib. 17. cap. 3. cunningly to expound the law. Also he saith this to be one property of there's, that whatsoever their own reason persuadeth them, Id sequuntur pertinaciter, that they stubbornly follow. Again he saith that they be astutum hominum genus, arrogans, & interdum Regibus quoque infestum, etc. A subtle kind of men, arrogant, and sometimes enemies to kings and rulers: These men separate themselves also from the congregation, and will communicate with us neither in prayers, hearing the word nor sacraments: they contemn and despise all those that be not of their sect, as polluted, and not worthy to be saluted, or kept company with: and therefore some of them meeting their old acquaintance, being godly preachers, have not only refused to salute them, but spit in their faces, wishing the plague of God to light upon them, and saying that they were damned, and that God had taken his spirit from them, and all this, because they did wear a cap: wherefore when they talk of Pharisees, they pluck themselves by the noses. But Lord, what a strange time is this, when such as they be, dare thus boldly publish libels against their superiors for maintaining and executing good and godly laws. The conclusion of this preface is a stout, presumptuous and malapert threatening, in my opinion, not to be suffered: But howsoever your pen and tongue walketh, yet I pray you hold your hands, or else. etc. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. 2. Whereas M. Doctor compareth us with the Pharisees, and saith we do all to be seen of men, and that we hold down our heads in the streets, and strain at a gn t swallowing down a Camel, because they are in all men's knowledge, I will leave it to them to judge of the truth of those things. Where he says we seldom or never laugh, it is not therefore that we think that it is not lawful to laugh, but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches, and of the ruins of ours, with the heavy judgements of the Lord which hung over us, aught to turn our laughing into weeping, besides that a man may laugh although he show not his teeth. And so Jerome Jerome ad marcel. in effect answereth in an epistle which he written, where upon occasion that certain used the same accusation that M. Doctor doth, he says, because we do not laugh with open mouth, therefore we are counted sad. And where he says we separate ourselves from all congregations, and are enemies to prince, and that we would seem to be holier than other, these and such like slanders are answered before. And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers, or spit in any man's face, or wish the plague of God to light upon them, or say that they be damned, we defend not, nor allow of any such behaviour. And it is unreasonable that the fault of one, should be imputed to so many, and to those which do as much mislike of it as M. Doctor himself. And what needed M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands, where do they in a word offer to strike? Belike his tongue is his own, and therefore he speaketh whatsoever he listeth. Io. Whitgifte. I show how much more aptly the qualities and conditions of the Pharisees agree to you and to your sect, than they can do to such as the authors of those pamplets call pharisees. I know you can both laugh, jest, and give, when you are among yourselves, and so could the Pharisees do: but I speak of your behaviour in open places, and before such as do not so well know you. It is unlike that you mourn for the ruins or calamities of any Churches, seeing that you seek with might and main the confusion of this, by stirring up schisms and contentions in it. That which I speak of separating yourselves from the congregation. etc. is well known to be true, in a number of you: and the contemptuous behaviour of some of you (pretending moste zeal) towards some of us, argueth what spirit you are of, and what your zeal is, even that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with, when he saith, Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant. The answer to certain Pamphlets. etc. In this portion entitled An exhortation to the Bishops to deal brotherly with their brethren: there is no great matter contained worthy of answering, only the author doth excuse himself, for taking upon him that exhortation, & moveth the Bishops to deal brotherly with the authors of the Admonition. First, because they be their rethrens: secondly because they aught first to have discovered unto the world by the word of God, how truly or falsely they have written. Thirdly, because they do but disclose the disorders of our Church of England, and humbly desire a reformation of the same, according to the rule of God's word. etc. Fourthly, that Papists lie abroad in their diocese untouched. etc. Fiftly, that many lewd light books, and ballads fly abroad printed, not only without reprehension, but Cum privilegio. Likewise in the same book the author seemeth to justify the Admonition, & to condemn the lordship and authority of Bishops, ascribing thereunto the stay & hindrance of their pretenced reformation: charging them after a sort with mangling the Scriptures of God, and with snaring the godly with such laws as were purposely made for the wicked. These be the principal contents of that book. The first reason, that is, That they be their brethren, might as well be alleged brethren may be punished. for the impunity of Anabaptists, Arrians, and such like, who pretend the sincerity of god's word, and would be counted brethren: yea it might as well be alleged for many other malefactors, who be also brethren, and yet must not therefore escape unpunished for their offences. Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute laws upon such as break them, because they be their brethren in christ? Beware of such doctrine, and let not affection in private men's causes carry you headlong into public errors. But I think you are in this point deceived, for howsoever we account them our brethren: yet they account not us their brethren, neither will they acknowledge us so to be, as some of them both in open speech and manifest signs have declared. And therefore when the Bishops deal with them, they deal with such as disdain to be called their brethren. T. C. Page. 177. Sect. 3 After M. Doctor confuteth his own shadow, for the exhortation doth not require that the name of a brother should deliver the authors of the Admonition from punishment, if they deserved it, but desi eth that it might work some moderation of the rigour of it, and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison. He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition, take not them for their brethren, yes verily, although unbrotherly handled, and for fathers too, and so both love them, and reverence them, until (which we hope will not be) they shall manifestly for the upholdi g of their own kingdom and profit, refuse to have Christ to reign over us, in whom this fatherhood and brotherhood doth consist. Io. Whitgifte. Let the reader's judge whether it be one of their reasons or no: let them also consider that which I have before alleged out of the second Admonition, pag. 35. & then tell me whether they take us for brethren, or no. Can you so well please yourselves in your own platform, that except we admit it, we refuse Christ to reign over us, I trust he hath reigned over us hitherto, and shall do to the end, though your platform be sunk to the bottom of the sea. An answer to certain Pamphlets. To their second reason I answer, that I think they have been talked with, and herded what they have to say for themselves, but their haughty minds and good opinion conceived of themselves, will not suffer them to see their errors. In this reason you allege nothing for them, but that which may also be alleged for the Papists, or any other sect of heretics. But it is an old saying, Turpe est doctori etc. How happeneth it that they themselves have first defamed, not the Bishops only, but also this whole Church of England with public libels, before they have used brotherly and private conference? This is to espy a moat in an other man's eye. etc. How true the third reason is, may appear in my answer to their Admonition, but how true soever it were, yet their disordered disclosing, by unlawful means, (that is, by libeling) deserveth as much punishment as hitherto they have had: for the truth needeth no such ungodly means of disclosing. If Papists go abroad unpunished, when by law they may be touched, surely it is a great fault, and can not be excused, and I pray God it may be better looked to. But this is no good and sufficient reason for the impunity of other: Because some Papists be not punished, shall therefore no disordered people be punished? Or because some in authority wink at some Papists, shall therefore no laws be executed towards any offenders? Surely touching malice against the form and state of this our Church, I see no great difference betwixt them and the Papists, and I think verily they both conspire together. The same answer I make to your first reason: shall no book be suppressed because some be not? It is a fault I confess, to suffer lewd Ballads and Books touching Ballets. manners. But it were a greater fault to suffer books and Libels, disturbing the peace of the Church, and defacing true religion. Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops, I have spoken sufficiently before. In mangling and wresting of the Scriptures, none offend so much as do the authors of the Admonition, who in that point are comparable to the Papists, as may be seen by the learned and diligent Reader. If they whom they term godly do willingly offend against such laws as were made for the wicked, they are to be punished according to the laws, neither are they to be spared because they pretend Godliness breketh no law. godliness: for there is no godliness in breaking of laws. The third scroll, called, (An Exhortation to the Bishops and to their Clergy to answer a little book. etc.) is satisfied (I trus e) for I have (as it is there required) answered the short and peevish Pamphlet (as they term it) I have disclosed their double and corrupt dealing, their wring of the Scriptures to serve their turn, and have declared the true sense & meaning of them: I have not bombast d it with rhetoric, but in plain & simple manner uttered my judgement, according to uncient fathers contemned oh ned men. the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures: notwithstanding I have in sundry points declared the use of the Church of Christ in times past, and do use the testimony of ancient Counsels and learned fathers, which these unlearned men unlearnedly contemn, a thing not herded of in any age or Church, nor allowed of any learned man, but only of certain heretics, and especially Anabaptists. To be short, I have not answered the book by pieces, but wholly. Howbeit I must desire them to pardon me, for not making more speed with my answer: their frivolous quotations so troubled me, and my other business, that I could no sooner make an end of it. In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet, there is nothing of any moment, Augustine recorded upon the abu tsary. worth the answering. Therefore as they allege this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur & non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur, If they should be feared and not taught it might seem a wicked governance: so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence: Si docerentur, & non terrerentur, vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur, & ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius moverentur: If they should be taught and not feared, in time they would waxestubburne, and bethe hardlier moved to imbracethe way of salvation. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. ult. I know not whether they have been conferred with or not, but I think the first reason which they had to persuade them, was that they should go to Newgate▪ which is that which the Exhortation con layneth of after, that they are first punished before they be taught. And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complain as he doth. For if he list he may learn or ever he go to prison. Io. Whitgifte. If they were so sent to that place, it was a meet reward for such disorderly dealing, for ignorance may not excuse Libelers, if they libel but against a private man, much less should it excuse them, slandering in that manner this whole Church and realm. I doubt not but that I shall learn to know myself, & to do mydutie whilst I am out of prison, so that I shall not justly for lack of duty and honesty deserve it. T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause, and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures, in most places where they are said to mangle and wrist, and how he hath answered the razors quest of the Exhortation, which is, to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures, and how truly, ptly, and learnedly, M. Doctor hath behaved himself, in citing of the old Counsels, and fathers: I leave it to be esteemed, partly of that which I have said, and partly by the deeper consideration of those, which because they can better judge, may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is, that I have because I would not make a long book, by heaping of one reprehension upon an other, contented myself rather to trip, as it were, and to pass over with a light foot, the heads and sums of things, than to number the faults, which are almost as many as there are sentences in this book, more I am sure than there are pages. Io. Whitgifte. I have confuted both them and you, according to the gifts and grace that God hath given me, with such authorities both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours, as is fit to be used in the decyding of such controversies. And I am well assured that you have not omitted the lest blot in my book: and for the most part you have feigned (against your own knowledge) those to be which are not. I refuse no man's judgement of my dealing with the old Counsels and fathers, that is learned and will speak without affection what he thinketh. Your hyperbolical conclusion or figure of lying, where with you close up your book, I am well used unto, and therefore it doth nothing trouble me, but remaineth as a certain note of the spirit that possesseth you, which is the spirit of untruth. THus have I, (according to that talon that God hath committed unto me) endeavoured myself to defend the state of this Church of England, and the orders and rites therein by public authority established, against the slanderous libels of certain unquiet people, and this uncharitable reply of T. C. If either I have omitted any thing, that might have been uttered (as I have omitted many things) or not so fully answered every point, that all men thereby may be satisfied, namely such as will be satisfied with reason, I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfil my want. The which I do desire them most hearty to do, even for the love that they have to the peace of the Church: & not to suffer so common and weighty a cause, to rest only upon one man's shoulder, so far inferior to so many of them in all respects. The contrary part cease not to lay their heads together, and to make it all their cases, which would more evidently appear, if their might were according to their will. Therefore seeing that we like and allow of the state, let us not suffer it to be defaced unjustly, and without either learning or truth. And if it shall please the contrary part to answer this my defence, then do I require no other thing of them, than the self same, which the Author of the Reply hath required of me, and the which I have accordingly performed, that is, that they set down my words, and answer me wholly: which unless they do, they shall not only with all wise men greatly does redite themselves, and show the lack of truth to be on their side: but also ease me of some pains: for I purpose not to answer Pamphlets, nor to spend the time in confuting frivolous Libels. The Lord grant that my labours may work that effect that I desire: that is, peace in the Church, and true obedience in the hearts of the Subjects. Amen. ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Reply touching matters in controversy. T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my book, I have here set down the judgement of the later writers, concerning these matters in controversy between us. Wherein because I love not to translate out of other men's works whereby I might make mine to grow: I have kept this moderation, that I neither set down all the writers, nor all their places that I could, nor yet of every singular matter: But the chiefest writers, and either of the chiefest points, or else of those, wherein they are alleged against us by M. Doctor, and one only place of each (as far as I could judge and choose out) most direct to that wherefore I have alleged it. For otherwise if I would have spoken of all the points, and of the judgement of all the writers, and gathered all the places that I could, they would have been sufficient matter of an other book as big or rather bigger than this. I must also admonish the Reader, that I have forborn in certain of these titles to set down the judgements of M Beza. M. Bullinger and M. Gualther: because they are comprehended in the confession of the Churches. And thus partly upon those sentences which I have alleged in this book, and partly upon these testimonies here set down: I leave to the consideration of all men, how truly and justly it is said, that the learned writers of thesetimes (one or two only excepted) are against us. Io. Whitgifte. Surely it had been more commendable in mine opinion, if you had set down the very words of the Authors themselves, rather than your own collections 'pon them: for so should their judgements more plainly have appear , whereas now you frame them as they may best serve for your purpose. It is no shame for a man to translate out of other men's works, especially using their testimonies: but it cannot be void of great reproach, for any man so to be addicted to his own persua on, that he should so lightly regard other men's opinions. I doubt not but that the Reader will conceive by these authorities that you have here collected as chief, principal, and most evident for the confirmation of your assertions, upon what slender pillars your building standeth. For truly (so far as I can gather) most of these places make little for your purpose, and none of them enforce any such necessity as you seem to urge, as it will fall out in the examination of them. T. C. 1 That there aught now to be the same regiment of the Church, which was in the Apostles time. The confession of the Helvetian, Tygurin, Berne, Geneva, Polonia, Hungary, and Scotland with others, in the 18. chapter speaking of the equality of Ministers says, that no man may justly forbidden to return to the old constitution of the Church of God, and to recei e it before the custom of man. Io. Whitgifte. The confession in that place, speaketh not one word of having Seniors in every Parish: neither yet of any other Seniors than those that be Ministers of the word and Sacraments, for the whole chapter entreateth of such. Moreover it saith not that we aught to return to that old government, but that we may return: so that it is from your purpose, and maketh more against you than with you. For the question is not whither we may return to that ind of government or not, if it seem good to the Christian Magistrate to whom God hath now committed the government of the Church, but whether the Christian Magistrate aught of necessity to receive that kind of government, and no other: which this confession doth nowhere affirm. T. C. M. Caluine in his Institutions. 4. book. 3. chapter, and. 8. section, speaking of the ancients which did assist the Pastors in every Church, saith that experience teacheth that that order was not for one age, and that this office of government is necessary to all ages. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine in that place showeth what hath been, and what may be in the Church, but he doth not make that kind of government so necessary that it can not be altered. His meaning is, that that kind of government is necessary for all ages, because in every age the Church in one place or other is in persecution: but he nowhere saith (as I remember) this kind of government to be necessary in all states of the Church, nay he affirmeth the direct contrary in the same book the seventh chapter, and. 15. section. Where he speaking of the government of the Church, saith thus: Scimus autem politiam pro varietate temporum, recipere, imò exigere varias mutationes. We know that the government of the Church (according to the diversity of times) doth receive, yea, require or exact divers alterations. T. C. And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same book, saith as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiastical censures. Io. Whitgifte. M. Caluine showeth in that place, how necessary discipline is in the Church, which is not denied: he speaketh not in that section of any thing now in controversy. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the third to the Romans, teacheth that although the common wealth change her government, yet the Church always keepeth hers stil. Io. Whitgifte. Let the Reader peruse that place, and he shall perceive how cunning you are in counterfeiting. For M. Martyr speaketh there only of the laws of God which be immutable, and showeth that therein the Church of God doth differ from a common wealth, because the common wealth doth often change her laws, but the Church doth not so, and he means such laws as be of the essence, and being of the Church, & are of faith and of salvation. He speaketh also of the inward and essential form of the Church, not of the external and accidental form of it, which is now in question, and of the spiritual government, not of the external government. Certain it is, that no law of God (not being personal or temporal) is to be altered. But I require to have that law set down, which establisheth this form of government for the which you now contend. T. C. Bucer in his first book of the kingdom of Christ the. 15. chapter, lamenteth that there were found amongst those which are counted of the forwardest Christians, which would not have the same discipline used now, that was in the times of the Apostles, objecting the differences of times, and of men. Io. Whitgifte. There is nothing in that chapter that maketh any thing with you, or against me: for who denieth, but that the discipline that Christ hath appointed aught to be maintained and kept in his Church: our question is of the manner of executing it, of the people, and of certain other circumstances, whereof M. Bucer in that chapter speaketh not one word: and that the Reader may understand how you seek to delude him, I will recite the words of M. Bucer in that chapter, wherein he comprehendeth all that which is spoken in the same chapter touching this matter. Out of all these testimonies of the holy Scripture concerning Christ's kingdom, they that believe the word of God shall easily understand, that what soever Christ the Lord bathe commanded us and appointed, the same to bring a sure and great help to our salvation, if it be so observed as be bath commanded and appointed it: and that in all ages howsoever men and times do vary: neither can we wittginly for any cause intermitte or neglect any of them, but we must therewith refuse and despise Christ himself, and his whole kingdom. All which I grant: and they touch not any thing now in controversy. Surely these be but slender testimonies to prove that there aught now to be the same regiment of the church, which was in the Apostles times, if you speak of the external regiment, which only is now in question. T. C. 2 That one minister aught not to have any dominion over an other The foresaid Helvetian confession. etc. in the seventeenth chapter saith, that Christ did most severely prohibit unto his Apostles, and their successors primacy, and dominion, and in the eighteenth chapter says, that equal power, and function, is given unto all the ministers of of the Church, and that from the beginning no one preferred himself to an other, saving only that for order, some one did call them together, propound the matters that were to be consulted of, and gathered the voices. etc. Io. Whitgifte. The words of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these: truly Christ is present with his Church, and is a living head, who straightly forbade his Apostles, and their successors, to challenge the primacy or supremacy in the Church. This the confession speaketh of such primacy & supremacy, as the Bishop of Rome doth challenge over the whole Church, for in that place it only speaketh of the Pope's usurped authority, and not one word of that superiority among Ministers which is now in controversy. That which the confession affirmeth in the eighteenth chapter maketh nothing against any superiority allowed in this Church of England, for we acknowledge that there is one equal power and function of all Ministers, but yet superiority also to be among them for order sake, and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plain and manifest words, even in this place by you alleged: whereby also that distinction is verified which you seem so greatly to mislike, to wit, that there is an equality of all Ministers of God's word quoad ministerium, touching the ministery, but degrees and superiority among them, quoad ordinem & politiam, touching order and government. T. C. Musculus in his common places, in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the word says, that in the apostolic Church, the ministers of the word were none above another, nor subject to any head, or precedent, and misliketh the setting up of any one in higher degree than another: And further he says upon the second chapter of the second Epistle to the Thessalonians, that the honour of a Bishop, being taken from the rest of the ministers, and given to one, was the first step to the papacy, howsoever in other places he speaketh otherwise. Io. Whitgifte. Musculus in those words of his common places, speaketh of superiority quoad officium & potestatem, touching office and power, (for these words doth he use) he speaketh not of superiority touching order and policy, which is now in question. The same power is in all ministers of the word of binding, losing, and administering the Sacraments, but not of governing in the external policy of the Church. Moreover Musculus in that place speaketh chief of the usurped power of the Bishop of Rome, and of that authority which his bishops do challenge and clai e, from him, wherefore that place may not be wrested against the lawful jurisdiction and superiority that is now used in this Church of England. Upon the second chapter of thee second Epistle to the Thessalonians, he only showeth how the Pope came to such excessive authority. No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and upon just considerations, may by process of time abused: but doth it therefore follow, that they may not be restored to their right use again? A man might then much more strongly reason against your equality, which by sufficient trial (as by Jerome in sundry places it may appear) is proved to have been, and to be the cause of schisms, sects, contentions, seditions, tumults, murders, confusion of Churches and common weals. etc. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused. T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers, pertaineth not to one man. The foresaid Helvetian confession, etc. in the eighteenth chapter saith, that the ministers aught to be choose of the Church, or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Church, and afterward ordained with public prayers. Io. Whitgifte. This maketh against you: for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appointed to that office in the Church: (for these be the words of the Confession) but our Bishops are appointed to that office in this Church, therefore the Confession alloweth Bishops to elect Ministers. The words that follow, that they should be ordained with public prayers, is observed in our Church. T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth book of Institutions. 3. chapter. 15. section, showeth that the Church did choose, and that the Apostles did moderate the election, and confuteth them which upon the places of Titus and Timothy would prove, that the election belongeth to one man. Io. Whitgifte. To this place of M. Caluine I have sufficiently answered in the third treatise of election of Ministers, chap. 7. the. 1. division. T. C. 4 That there aught new to be Elders to govern the Church with the Pastors, and Deacons, to provide for the poor. Touching Elders, the judgement of M. Caluine hath been before declared in the first of these propositions. Io. Whitgifte. And in the same place have I answered, that which is there by you alleged out of M. Caluine. T. C. M. Beza in his book of Divorces page. 161. saith, that the Eldership of the Church aught to be where there is a Christian magistrate. Io. Whitgifte. M. Beza doth not say in that place, that the Eldership of the Church aught to be where there is a Christian Magistrate, but that it may be: and that it hath been, which he only speaketh and proveth not. And yet if he mean that Presbytery whereof the Canons speak (by him only in generality named) then is it no other than we have at this day in this Church of England, in Cathedral Churches and Colleges, for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else, but a College or company of Priests and Ministers of the word and Sacraments, as I have further declared in the. 17. Tract. where I have also showed, that M. Beza his opinion is that the government of the Church may admit alteration, according to the diversities of times, place, and people. cap. ult. T. C. Touching Deacons, M. Caluine. 4. book. 3. chapter. 9 section, after that he had described what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles times, saith that we, after their example aught to have the like. Io. Whitgifte. M. calvin's words be these: En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia, quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conveniat. Behold what Deacons the Apostolical church had, even such as it is convenient we should have, according to that example. He doth not say that we aught to have them, but that it is convenient to have th' : he doth not make them necessary but convenient: and he must be understanded to took of that Church whereof he had experience, not of this Church wherein he was 〈◊〉 a stranger. Of Deacons, and that their office was not only to provide for the poor, but to preach also, and to baptize, I have proved Tract. 19 & Tract. 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessions showeth that the office of the distribution of the goods of the church is an ordinary function in a Church lawfully constituted, which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship. Io. Whitgifte. In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie providing for the poor to Deacons that they must by them be provided for, and by no other: he only showeth what was done in this case in the Apostles time, and in the times immediately following: but there is neither Scripture nor any learned writer that teacheth that the poor may be by no other provided for, than by Deacons. You prove that which no man denieth, and speak not one word of the matter in question, that is, whether of necessity the poor must be provided for by Deacons and not otherwise. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the. 11. to the Romans, speaking of the Elders, which did assist the Pastor in every Church, and of the Deacons, lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Church, that the names of these functions do scarce remain. Io. Whitgifte. That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place, is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before written touching the public ministers of the Church, and therefore you do unjustly restrain it only to Elders and Deacons. It may evidently appear that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the goverranent of the Church of Christ in the Apostles time, & the government of the Pope's Church in his time, as his words following declare, for thus he addeth immediately. In stead of these, they have brought in Taperbearers, Acoluthes, and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures, serve at their superstitious altar. So that you can not gather of this place that your Signiory is perpetual, and must of necessity for ever remain in the Church. T. C. M. Bucer in his first book of the kingdom of Christ, for the ancients of the Church sayeth, that the number of the Elders of every Church aught to be increased according to the multitude of the people, and in the. 14. chapter of the same book sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Church until it was driven out by antichrist. Io. Whitgifte. It had been well to have noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer, howbeit, the matter is not great, for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of every Church aught to be increased according to the number of the people, or not, in such places where this kind of government is admitted: but whether this kind of government must of necessity in all Churches and at all times be put in practice. I do not remember that M. Bu oer any where affirmeth that. In deed in the fifth chapter of the first book (speaking of these Seniors,) he sayeth: Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae & Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere. etc. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christ with the ministers of the word and Sacraments. etc. He sayeth they may do it, not that they aught to do it. That which M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter, is not denied, but he nowhere sayeth that the poor must of necessity he provided for by Deacons, and by none other: and he teacheth in the same chapter, that more things appertained to the office of the Deacon than to provide for the poor: as namely to assist the ministers in the administration of the Sacraments and exercising of discipline. What sufficient proofs these be to induce that necessity of the kind of government so greatly urged by you, let the learned Reader judge. T. C. 5 That excommunication pertaineth not to any one man in the Church. M. Caluine in his Institutions. 4. book, and 11. Chapter, and. 6. Section, teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man, and that it was to wicked a fact that one man taking the authority which was common to other, to himself alone, opened a way to tyranny, took from the Church her right, and abrogated the Church Senate, ordained by the spirit of Christ. And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section, he sayeth further that it aught not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Church. Io. Whitgifte. We grant that no one man aught to take that unto himself which doth not appertain unto him: but I have proved Tract. 18. that excommunication pertaineth to Bishops, and that this Church of England hath consented there unto: wherefore M. Caluine speaketh against that excommunication which the Pope violently and tyrannically usurpeth, and not against this which our Bishops in this Church of England, both by the laws of God and consent of the Church exercise. I speak of the thing itself and not of the abuse. T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter. 43. Section, sayeth, that this power of excommunicating is given to no one man, except it please God to work extraordinarily. Peter Martyr upon the first to the Corinth's and fifth chapter, sayeth that it is very dangerous, to permit so weighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and will of any one man. And therefore, both that tyranny might be avoided, and this censure execeuted with greater fruit and gravity, that the order which the Apostles there useth is still to be observed. Io. Whitgifte. To M. Beza and M. Martyr, I answer as I did to M. Caluine: and yet M. Martyr seemeth to expound himself in the same place where he speaking against the committing of this authority of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop, and refelling this saying of the Papists, Episcopum esse totam ecclesiam virtualiter, when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter, as he there affirmeth, he addeth by and by, de malis haec intelligas & tyrannicè agentibus: Understand this of evil Dishops and such as deal tyrannically: whereby he declareth that he speaketh against the committing of this discipline to evil Bishops and such as use it tyrannically. T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdom of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9 chapter saith, that Saint Paul accuseth the Corinthians, for that the whole Church, did not cast out of their company the incestuous person. Io. Whitgifte. The question is not whether the whole Church may have to do in excommunication or not, but whither the consent thereof is all times therein to be required. What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth. I have declared. Tract. 15. T. C. 6 That Chancellors, Commissaries, Officials. etc. usurp authority in the Church which belongeth not to them. M. Caluine in his Institutions. 4. book. 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh against the office of Officials, and allegeth divers reasons against them, as that they exercise that part of the Bishop's charge, and that they handle matters which pertain not to the spiritual jurisdiction. Io. Whitgifie. M. Calvin in that place allegeth no reasons at all against those offices, only he saith that they exercise that part of the Bishop's charge, and that they handle matters which pertain not to the spiritual jurisdiction, (this I say) he speaketh, but he doth not prove it. In the rest of that Section, he entreateth of the abuses of such officers, wherein I do not descent from him. T. C. M. Beza in his book of Divorces, proving that the judicial deciding of matrimonial causes appertaineth unto the civil magistrate, saith that Officials, Proctors, end Promoters and in a word all the swinish filth, now of long time hath wasted the Church. Io. Whitgifte. I understand not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proveth that the judicial deciding of matrimonial causes appertaineth to the civil Magistrate. howbeit., Officials etc. in such cases deal not in this Church of England without the consent and authority of the civil Magistrate. It is not good dealing to apply those things which M. Beza and other speak of such offices abused under the Pope., to the same offices now reform under a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospel: But thus you dazzle the people's eyes. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the. 13. Chap. to the Romans, speaking against the civil jurisdiction of Bishops, doth by the same reason condemn it in their Deputies the Officials. Io. Whitgifte. Peter Martyr speaketh not against the office, but against certain abuses in the officers: this is not simple dealing to transfer that to the office, that is spoken of the abuse of the office. T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the word aught not to exercise any ill offices and jurisdiction. M. Calvin in his institutions. 4. book. 11. chap. 9 Sect. bringeth divers reasons to prove that Bishops may neither us rpe, nor take 〈◊〉 given them, either the right of the sword, or the knowledge of civil causes. Io. Whitgifte. The reasons that M. Caluine useth there, be neither many, nor greatly strong. I have answered them fully. Tract. 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh only of that princely power, which the romish Bishop's claim, not as committed unto them by the Prince and and civil Magistrate, but due unto them by the word of God, from the which challenge I have showed in the foresaid treatise, how far our Bishops are. T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. saith that the Ecclesiastical jurisdiction is to be distinguished from the civil, and that although the Bishops in the times of christian Emperors were troubled with the hearing of civil causes, yet they did not that by any judicial power, which they exercised, but by a friendly entreaty of the parties, which were at discord: and saith notwithstanding, that herein the Emperors did give to much to the ambition of certain Bishops, whereupon by little and by little afterward all things were confounded. And in the. 42. Section saith that those corporal punishments which the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinary. Io. Whitgifte. M. Beza his bore word is no sufficient proof against so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrary, and I have sufficiently showed Tract. 23. cap. 3. Divis. ult. that Bishops in times past did not only hear civil causes, but also judicially determine the same. Touching the corporal punishments which the Apostles exercised, M. Beza in his book de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis, doth make them so ordinary that he useth them as sufficient arguments to prove his purpose, and saith plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments, not by the right of the Ecclesiastical ministery, but by the right of the civil Magistracy. as I have declared Tract. 23. Cap. 3. Diuis. 12. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the. 13. to the Romans, speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiastical, and civil jurisdiction in one man, saith that when both the civil, and Ecclesiastical functions do so meet, that one hinder the other, so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other. Io. Whitegifte. M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute jurisdiction civil, such as the Pope claimeth, and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England, whereof he had experience in the days of King Edward even in this realm, and the which he also then allowed. T. C. M. Bucer upon the. 5. of Matthew, saith, that there is no man so wise, and holy, which is able to exercise both the civil, and the Ecclesiastical power, and that therefore he which will exercise the one, must leave the other. Io. Whitgifte. I answer as I did to M. Martyr, for he also allowed that civil jurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edward. T. C. 8 That the Sacraments aught not to be privately administered, nor by women. The foresaid confession: C. 20. holdeth that baptism aught not to be ministered by women or midwives', to the which also may be joined the Liturgy of the English Church at Geneva, which condemneth the ministering of either of the Sacraments in private houses, or by women. I . Whitgifte. These be needless proofs, & yet are there learned men of the contrary judgement. howbeit, no man saith that women may baptize ordinarily, or that the Sacramonts' may be administered in private places, otherwise than upon urgent occasion: and in that respect no learned man doth condemn the ministering of the Sacraments in private places. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinth's, in describing the corruptions of the lords Supper, noteth this to be one, that the Church did not communicate altogether, which corruption as it was in divers places in times past, so he complaineth that it is now. Io. Whitgifte. M. Martyr in that place speaketh against private Masses, and the complaint that he maketh, is concerning them, wherein we fully agree with him: neither do we like or allow of such as withdraw themselves from the lords table when the Supper is celebrated. You never love to rehearse the author's words (because they make not for you) but gather collections of your own, contrary to the meaning of the author, as you do in this place, which the Reader shall easily perceive, if it will please him to read M. Martyr himself, in that place by you quoted. And surely it is too great injury, to wrest that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of England, which he or any man else speaketh against private Masses, but such are your deep and profound collections. T. C. M. Bucer in his first book of the kingdom of Christ, and. 7. chapter proveth out of the 10. to the Corinth's, that the whole Church should receive the Supper of the Lord together, and that the use of the Church of God in this behalf, aught with great and diligent endeavour to be restored unto the Churches, and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called. Io. Whitgifte. M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place (touching this question) where unto I agree not: he would have the Communion ministered in the public congregation, & who denieth that? except it be upon occasion of sickness. etc as I have before declared: he would have all or the most part that be present to communicate, and who defendeth the contrary? and yet if they will not, the rest may not be secluded: his whole drift is to reprove such as will not communicate, and not to prohibit the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing, be they more, or be they fewer, so that there be a competent number, that it may be a Communion. T. C. M. Beza against Westphalus, showeth that it is not decent, that baptism be ministered but in the Church, and that at standing hours, and by the ministers, and further, that upon no necessity (as it is called) it aught to be ministered in private houses. And that if it might be ministered in private houses, yet not otherwise than by Ministers. Io. Whitgifte. You untruly report M. Beza his words: he only showeth in that place what the order of the Church is, where he remains, he doth not prescribe any certain rule for all Churches, neither is it meet that he should, in such cases. He so speaketh of baptizing in private houses, that he doth not simply condemn it. But what soever his judgement is in that point, his mind is not (I am sure) to bind all other Churches to the same, which think and teach as sound of this Sacrament, as he doth, or can do, though they agree not with him in all circumstances. T. C. M. Calvin in his Institutions. 4. book chapter. 15. sect. 20. 21. proveth that baptism aught not to be ministered by private men, or by any women. Io. Whitgifte. Only ministers of the Church are the ordinary ministers of baptism, neither may any other challenge that function unto themselves ordinarily, but yet if upon occasion a private person do baptize, the baptism is good and lawful, even as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministered by Sephora. As I have proved. Tract. 9 cap. 5. T. C. ● The judgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparel, whose secret Epistles M. Doctor allegeth, appeareth by these places following, cited out of their works printed, and published by themselves. Whereof also some are alleged by the answerer to the examiner, where are divers other places to this purpose, whereunto I refer the Reader. M. Bucer upon the. 18. of matthew, says, that they say nothing which do always object, that greater things must be urged, than the reformation of ceremonies, thereby defending the relics of Antichrist, for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion: And that as there is no agreement between Christ and Belial, so those which are sincere Christians, can abide nothing of Antichrist. Io. Whitgifte. M. Bucer saith truly: for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected, neither can sincere Christians abide any thing of antichrist, as it is Antichrist's: but what is all this to the purpose? is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of England, from the which all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned, and those that remain purged from all opinion of Antichristianitie? And that M. Bucer meant nothing less than the ceremonies now retained in this Church of England (as we use them) it may evidently appear by that which I have alleged out of him. Tract. 7. cap. 5. the. 5. division. and chap. 7. division. 4. T. C. Peter Martyr upon the. 10. chap. of the second book of the Kings says, that the Lutherans must take heed, lest whilst they cut off many Popish errors, they follow jehu by retaining also many Popish things. For they defend still the real presence in the bread of the Supper, and Images, and Vestments. etc. and says that religion must be wholly reform to the quick. Io. Whitgifte. M. Martyr nameth the Popish things which the Lutherans observe, to be the real presence, images, all the Popish apparel which they used in their Mass, (for so doth he mean) which this Church hath refused. What his opinion is of this apparel, that we retain, I have declared tract. 7. chap. 5. the. 4. division. where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same. God be thanked, Religion is wholly reform, even to the quick in this Church. T. C. Bullinger in his Decades. 5. Book, and ninth Sermon saith, that our Saviour Christ and the Apostles used their accustomed apparel in the Supper, and that although in times passed the Ministers put on a kind of cloak upon their common apparel, yet that was done neither by the example of christ, nor of his Apostles, but by the tradition of man, and that in the end, after the example of the priests apparel in the old law, it was cast upon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper. But (saith he) we have learned long ago not only that all levitical ceremonies are abrogated, but also that they aught to be brought again into the Church of no man. And therefore seeing we are in the light of the Gospel, and not under the shadow of the law, we do worthily reject, that Massing levitical apparel. Io. Whitgifte. Neither do we retain the massing levitical apparel, but that apparel only which Bullinger himself alloweth of in divers Epistles written of purpose, touching these matters, as I have expressed, Tract. 7. Chapter. 5. the. 6. Division. etc. T. C. Gualther upon the. 21. of the Acts among others, bringeth this for one reason, to improve Paul's shaving of his head, for that the Gospel had been preached twenty years: and that therefore the infirmity of the jews aught not to have been born with. And after he says, that that teacheth how much the superstitious Masters of ceremonies hurt the Gospel, which nourish the weakness of faith by the long keeping of ceremonies, and by their long bearing, hinder the doings of those ministers, which are more fervent. Io. Whitgifte. M. Gualther in these words saith nothing against any point of this Church: he speaketh truly and nothing to your purpose. M. Gualther hath sufficiently showed his opinion in these matters, not only in written Epistles, but in printed books, as in his Epistle before his commentaries upon the first to the Corinthians. Surely, there is no such weight in these authorities for your purpose, that you can take any great advantage of them: indeed your cause in my opinion hath wone small credit by alleging of them. ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman, for Humphrey Toy, dwelling in Paul's Churchyard at the sign of the Helmet. ANNO. 1574.