A GODLY AND LEARNED ANSWER, TO a lewd and unlearned Pamphlet: ENTITLED, A few, plain and forcible Reasons for the Catholic Faith, against the Religion of the Protestants. By RICHARD WOODCOKE Bachelor of Divinity.  2. COR. 4. 3. 4. If our Gospel hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds, etc.  printer's device of a pair of compasses, associated with Nicholas Okes (McKerrow 334) 
LABOUR ET CONSTANTIA  
LONDON, Printed by N. O. for john Bache and Nicholas Bourne, and are to be sold at his shop under the Royal Exchange. 1608.   

TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFUL SIR ALEXANDER HAMPDEN KNIGHT, AND TO THE WHOLE Worshipful and ancient Family of the HAMPDENS' in Buckingham Shire.  
RIght Worshipful, it is now almost a year and a half since there came to my knowledge a Popish Pamphlet made and scattered abroad, as it seemeth, by some popish seedsman, and I cannot tell whether some ligter in our quarters, which yet I hold to be more than probable. This pamphlet he entitled, A few plain and forcible Reasons for the Catholic Faith, against the Religion of the protestants. These reasons coming into the hands of a young Papist and Recusant, as I take it, whom this or some other deceitful workman had poisoned with the venom of Popery: He attributed so much thereunto, that being moved by a faithful and loving kinsman to renounce his popish recusancy and to come to the Church and become a Protestant, he answered that he was undoubtedly persuaded that he held the right, and therefore would persist therein, and that because They were resolved and put out of doubt of the truth of their Religion by these four Reasons. The aforesaid young Papist delivered these 4 reasons to a Minister of his acquittance, with purpose to have them delivered to a godly Preacher, as a challenge (for so I interpret it) by reason that he by his vigilant and industrious travel stood much in their light, that they could not spread their popish heresy so farr● and so freely as they desired. This Pamphlet being thus come to his hands, God offering opportunity of a Christian meeting of some few of us Fellow-ministers, he brought forth unto us, and specially requested me (the Pamphlet being not very long) a little that time to peruse it, which in some part I did. Being further moved by him to take it in hand, and to frame and answer thereunto. I alleged for a tust excuse, that there was in it nothing new, but that which had been often objected and often answered: And therefore as this Cram I held not worth the answering, so if any unresolved were desirous to receive satisfaction in the matter, they might plentifully find it, if they listed to peruse what before time had been answered by many others. Howbeit not so satisfying him, for that it seemed good (these 4 Reasons being so highly esteemed) to discover the vanity of them, I was content to take them with me, as he requested; Yet without any certain promise to deal with them, the rather because I had then in hand some labour of writing in another argument, which being finished, finding by perusing them, how full of vain ostentation they were how subtle by a new fiction to pretend somewhat for Popery out of the Religion of Protestants, how pernicious by striving to work the highest resolution in Papists, how closely the matter was conveted to get authority and credit to popish heresy by these Corner creeping reasons, which seemed already to be made familiar to the vulgar sort. I thought it a point of charity plainly and demonstratively so to lay open the vanity of them, as even the vulgar sort, whose judgement was already captivated, by these reasons, might be able to discern the truth of my answer. Many things in the same arguments h●●e b●na heretofore copiously and learnedly written by sundry grave Divines, which yet in one respect or other, being above the reach of common Christians, have either not come to their hands, or exceeded the measure of their capacity. For their sakes therefore have I chief traveled, not to speak much but to speak plainly, and as near as I could the point of the objection.  
After I had finished my first Copy, I was constrained to write it the second time, having no other meaning but to return my written answer to my godly brother of whom I received the Copy of the 4. Reasons, so to communicate it, if he thought there were any that might receive satisfaction by it. The young Papist that delivered abroad the Reasons had before boasted, that because the Reasons had rested some time, as he thought, in the hands of him, to whom they first came unanswered, therefore he was sassured that they could not be answered The truth is, that before I could obtain leisure to take them in hand, or was indeed fully resolved so to do, there passed one quarter of a year and more, and when I had finished the answer I made no haste, as to some is known, to write the second copy. When at convenient times I had finished it, I sent it to be delivered in writing: and I understand accordingly it was, and came to sight as of some other, so of that very Papist, who was the instrument to give abroad the Reasons, who as the manner of them is, having read some three or four leaves, fling it up, and made a tush at it saying, He could answer the book himself; And not unlike he could after their fashion, every child and audacious woman amongst them presuming to speak Fathers and Doctors, as if their idolatrous Priests and familiars did speak in them. My godly brother having just cause to suspect that the said popish Reasons were dispersed, and considering that it was very hard for one written copy to ser●e for all that were corrupted by them persuaded me to suffer ●y answer to deprinted. I did, as he knoweth not hastily entertain his motion, but wished to have the advise of some other of gravity, godliness and learning, from whom receiving encouragement, I yet made no haste, being unwilling in such satiety of books to increase the number, especially having nothing to say, but what had been better said before. Now at last perceiving it to be desired and expected of those whom worthily I respect that I should permit my answer, such as it is, to be imprinted. I have yielded my poor service in this little book, to the censure of the Church of God, to the instruction of the seduced, if it so please God, and have exposed it to the uttermost calumniation of the restless adversary, who like raging sea is always foaming up his own shame, and casteth up continually mire and dirt.  
And because my ordinary ministery hath now for some good time been bestowed in that place, where your Worship is an ordinary hearer, considering also that the occasion hath sprung up within the division of your Magistracy. I have presumed to offer unto you, and to publish in your name this small fruit of my extraordinary labours, for remembering that worthy Griffith Hampden Esquire of blessed memory, who first called me to this place, and likewise his son of great hope William Hampden, by whom I received much comfort and encouragement in my ministery, whose blessed end was to me no smalzeale of God's blessing upon my poor labours, and now acknowledging God's favour towards me, who having taken away hath supplied your Worship resolute in yourself and in your worthy service, for the truth of whom I have received more than common love: For which in all thankfulness I render myself bound. I thought it my duty to dedicate these my poor endeavours to your worshipful self and Name; Beseeching you to accept this my slender gift as a testimony of that due respect which worthily I bear towards you. I pray God long to continue the honour of your whole house, both in yourself present, and in all the the hopes posterity, and especially to make the long continued honour, which in this life you have, eternal in the kingdom of his Son. From great Hampden in Buck. 1608.  
Your worships in all Christian duty bound and ready, RICMARD WOODCOKE.   

AN ANSWER TO A LEWD AND UNLEARNED PAMPHLET, SENT ABROAD IN WRITING BY SOME POPISH CORNER-CREEPER: ENTITLED, A few, plain, and forcible reasons for the Catholic faith, against the Religion of the Protestants.  

The first Reason.  

PAPIST.  
THE Church of Christ continueth for 
Matth. 16. 18. 28, 20.  ever (as is plain in the Gospel confessed of all sides.)  
But the Protestants congregation, 
Luk. 1. 33.  hath not continued for ever, and our Church hath.  
Therefore not their congregation but our Church is the true Church of Christ.   

PROTESTANT.  
FIrst, I answer to the whole syllogism, then to each part. The whole syllogism is faulty and sophistical, because there are in it quatuor termini. First, the Church of Christ, viz. Catholic and invisible: Secondly, the Protestants congregation, viz. particular and visible: Thirdly, continueth for ever, viz. invisibly: Fourthly, hath not continued for ever, viz. visible. Wherefore the propounding of one, viz. The Church Catholic and invisible, and assuming of another, viz. Some particular and visible Church. Affirming of the Catholic Church that it continueth for ever invisible, denying of the Protestants congregation that it hath not continued for ever visible. You play fast and lose, and like a juggler deceive the eyes of the simple; For it is all one as if you should thus reason:  

The true Sun shineth continually,  
Our Sun shineth not continually:  
Therefore our Sun is not the true Sun.   
The Sun indeed shineth continually, but not in all men's sight. And the true Church continueth for ever, but neither wholly nor always visible. Our sun shineth not continually, viz. to us or in our fight. The Protestant congregations have not continued for ever, to wit, visible and apparent. Now as he that concludes our sun not to be the true sun, because it shines not always in our sight, proves himself no better than a Sophister; so he that concludes the Protestant congregations to be no part of the true Church, because they have not continued for ever visible, as now they are, shows himself a deceitful worker, and can deceive none but the unlearned and unstable, who for want of knowledge in the Scriptures have not their senses exercised to discern between good and evil, between light and darkness, between truth and falsehood.  
Next to each part I answer, and first to the proposition. Where you say the Church of Christ continueth for ever; if you mean the Catholic Church, the whole company of the faithful past, present, and to come in all places and times, joined to the fellowship of innumerable Angels, and 
Heb. 12. 22. 23. 24.  to jesus the Mediator as the head by the invisible communion of one spirit, I grant you this Church continueth for ever, howbeit known only to God, who only knoweth 
2. Tim. 2. 19  who are his: and so the long continued visibility of your falsely called Catholic Church, is not an argument to prove that the garish strumpet of Rome, which hath made all nations drunken with the cup of her fornications is the true 
Revel. 17. 2.  Church, much less the Catholic Church; and therefore out of your own proposition rightly understood, I conclude against you.  

The Catholic Church is not visible,  
The Romish Church is visible:  
Therefore the Romish Church is not the Catholic Church.   
To your assumption, (The Protestants congregation hath not continued for ever.) If you mean the particularity of any congregation that now is called Protestant, do you not then see that you fight with your own shadow? For we know and confess that our particular congregations, as now they stand, have not continued for ever, but have been gathered ordered and established, some earlier, some later, as God gave the opportunity, and as by the light of the Gospel they were able to dispel the Cimmerian darkness of Popery. But if by the Protestant congregation, you mean (as you ought) the doctrine, faith and worship of God now profesled and practised in the Protestant congregations, we say, your assumption is false, and for proof hereof appeal to the footsteps of all the particular Churches recorded in the Scriptures, and to the Apostolic doctrine which they received. If the now Protestant congregations do continue in the Apostles doctrine, in fellowship, in breaking of 
Acts 2. 42.  bread and prayer, as the Churches of jerusalem, Antioch, Galatia, Corinth, etc. did, than the Protestant congregation in those things wherein consisteth the true being of a Church, hath continued for ever, and doth and shall continue, maugre all popish heresy and treason. And therefore thus we return your Argument against you.  
That church which cotinueth for ever is the true church of Christ. The Protestant Church hath continued for ever, doth and shall continue for ever, because the word of God, (which they hold inviolably) abideth for ever:  
Therefore the Protestant Church is the true Church of Christ.   

PAPIST.  
That their congregation hath not continued for ever is most plain: For where as there hath been since Christ 1600. years let themset down but two for every hundredth years, and so in all but 32. and we will urge them no further.   

PROTESTANT.  
The mouths of Papists are always open like hell and the grave, they still crave and are never the fuller. This old stolen demand hath been already often answered. But would you have two congregations, or two only persons for every hundredth year? Before the captivity of God's Church under Popish tyranny, let the godly Martyrs, Bishops, and Pastors, whom histories do record, and whose writings are extant, testify the faith of those congregations wherein they lived and served in the chiefest points of doctrine, which we maintain against Papists. That famous jewel of blessed memory hath to your everlasting shame maintained it, and if the God of this world had not blinded 
2. Cor. 4. 3. 4.  your eyes, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should not shine unto you; Nay if the just God had not 
2. Thes. 2. 10. 11.  sent you strong illusions to believe lies, because you would not believe the truth, it could not be that you should thus grope at noon day, and still call for proof in that which is so abundantly proved. After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chair of Apostasy, the ashes of those witnesses of God, whom for the testimony of jesus Christ you have slain, as they are kept in store for a witness against you on earth, so their spirits now in heaven do cry against you as the blood of Abel against Cain. Since the discovery of that Man of sin in these latter years, you have found our congregations through God's goodness much thicker in all nations than you would have suffered, if your Nimrods' arms had been as long as they are wont to be.  
But what if we should only answer you, that the first of these 1600. is more in trial of truth then all the rest, as that one day of the institution of Matrimony between one man 
Math. 19 4.  and one woman joined together by an unseparable knot, is more to prove the integrity thereof, than all the years succeeding, wherein Polygamy and Dinorce had prevailed? Would you renounce the trial of these incorrupted times, and appeal to the latter, wherein sundry corruptions were apparently crept in? What were this else but to shun the light, as the manner of deceivers and evil doers is? What the religion of this hundredth was, nay what it ought to be for ever, let the Apostolic writers witness, and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught, believed and practised in that hundredth, let all the latter times know, that they are too young to control it, much more let Popish novelty retire into the schools and cloisters where it was bred.  
Lastly, all the times succeeding have embraced the Scriptures as the very word of God, have retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creed, as agreeable to holy Scriptures, and only herein have sought for the Canon and rule of truth. The Protestant congregations holding the same faith, and serving God by the same rule, have therefore on their sides, the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ, from Christ to his Apostles to this day, avouching the faith and service of God, which they follow and practise, and are compassed with a greater cloud of witnesses, than all the Popish Canonists, Summists, jesuits and Disputants shall ever be able to show. Hence I thus conclude.  
The faith of the first hundredth recorded in the Scriptures and retained in the ages following, holding firmly the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith, and they so believing and holding the true Church.  
The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same:  
Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church.   

PAPIST.  
They say they have been (though innisible) and they know not where. This answer cannot serve nor yield any content to a soul desirous of truth. For what man careful of salvation would leave a Church always visible and known (as ours hath been) and follow a congregation, the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memory, and was never heard of before for many ages together, as themselves cannot deny.   

PROTESTANT.  
As your religion consists wholly of errors, so you must needs defend it by lies, and that against your own knowledge, if at least you have informed yourself of the truth of that we say. Were not Christ and his Apostles visible? were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitive Church visible? say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught, that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did profess and practise according to the Scriptures, whereas on the other side wherein soever you differ from us, you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, and have new furbished erroneous and heretical opinions, and build upon men's imperfections and frailties, and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures, nor with the analogy of that faith which themselves maintained & taught? Why then shame you not to affirm that we know not where the witnesses & teachers of our religion have been? for so your meaning must be. True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue, whereby you bear the ignorant in hand, that yours is the true Church: We answer truly, and prove it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles, that the synagogue of Satan, is oftentimes and for long time more visible than the Church of God and of Christ, and that the Church of Christ is like the Moon, as 
In Psal. 10.  Augustine Augustine compares it, which sometime gives no light at all. This our answer may give content to every soul that is desirous of truth, especially such as will take the pains to search the Scriptures, whether the things we say be so or no.  
As for that your bad asseveration, that your Church hath been always visible, and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memory: And was never heard of before in many ages together as ourselves (you say) cannot defy, it is even as true as the rest of your religion. Unfold us the antiquity of that capital and fundamental point of your religion. Subesse 
Extran, come, de maior, & obed. cap. unam sanctam.  Romano pontifici, est de necessitate salutis. This is your principle of principles, and yet as it is contrary to all records of Scripture, wherein there are no footsteps of any such dependence, so is it controlled by the clear testimony of all antiquity, by the primitive state and constitution of the churches 
Council, Afric. cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil. Niceu. Can. 6. Epist. lib. 6. epist. 30. & li. 4. epist. 38.  in all the Christian world, and by the judicious sentence of Gregory the first, a Bishop of Rome.  
And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memory, etc. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophistical equivocation, which is now become the idiom and proper language of popery. True it is indeed that the recovery of that liberty which by God's mercy our Churches now enjoy, since they came out of the spiritual Babylon, which is the Romish Synagogue, may be fetched out of late memory. But is this the question between us? Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which gives the being to our churches, and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memory? If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday, then so is ours: But if theirs be from the beginning, our religion being the same, beginneth not one day or hour later than theirs did.  
Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglory of your synagogue be elder than this renewed face of our churches, will that prove any advantage for you? Was not the Apostasy of Israel elder than the protestation of Elias against 
1. King. 18.  them, much more than the return of many out of Israel in the days of Hezekiah? Was not the Pharisaical synagogue 
2. Chron. 30.  before the preaching of Christ, & before the church which he gathered by his preaching? Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is, but tell us, if you can, of what truth your religion is. Truth we grant you is most ancient, but error also is often very ancient, and is called by Angustine, Vetustissima falsit as, most ancient falsehood, and 
Epist. 166.  when the truth after a long time of suppression, cometh to the light again, in the eyes of them that judge by the outward appearance, error seemeth elder than the truth. Wherefore let us climb above these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error, and let us come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church, and there behold the true and undisguised face of the ancientest and truest Church. Let us search the Scriptures, which only contain the most infallible description of the true Church. If you shun this light, say it is, because there is no truth in 
joh. 3. 19 20. 21.  you, yea because your works are evil, and you fear to come to the light, lest it should be manifest that you walk in the truth.   

PAPIST.  
secondly this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the jews that crucified the Some of God, and wickedly cried out, His blood be upon us and our children, for more glorious than Christ's Church for which he shed his blood, and prayed so instantly to his father, for as they now be in many parts of the world, so can they show where they have remained, & preached their religion for all these 1600 years, and to say that Christ's Church is inferior to the jewish Synagogue, is so blasphemous, as Christian ears should not endure to hear.   

PROTESANT.  
Did Christ shed his blood to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity, like to the strumpet of Rome, that sits upon many waters, and hath rule over many 
Revel. 17. 1.  people, yea over Kings and princes? No, no, his kingdom is not of this world, By many tribulations must the 
joh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. joh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8.  Church of Christ enter into the kingdom of heaven. It must be comforted to his suffering, that it may be comforted to his glory. If it suffer with him, it shall reign with him. In the world it shall have trouble, but in him only peace. All that are not partakers of chastismens' are bastards and not sons.  
Again, did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might tread on the necks of Emrours, ride on a stately s●eed, and Kings to hold the stirrup, and going by on foot to lead the Pope's horse by the bridle? Or that they might ●●●eample patrimonies, large signiories, general command over king and key far, yea power of life and death over every creature, and to translate kingdoms, and to turn the world upside-down at their pleasure? Where is this prayer contained? why had not Christ himself, nor any of his Apostles the benefit of it? why was the primitive church so washed by horrible persecutions? Christ never made any such prayer, he prayed that his Church might be preserved not altogether from, but in 
john. 17. 15  temptations, not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints, but that their souls might be kept from evil, not that they might have their heaven in this world, but that they might be with him where he is and see his 
Vers. 24  glory.  
Again, was Christ inferior to the jews when they crucified him, or Stephen when they stoned him to death, or james when Herod cut off his head, or Peter when he bound him in prison? what saith the scripture? For thy sake 
Acts. 7. 12  we are killed all the day long; and we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Nevertheless in all these things we are more than 
Psal. 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37  conquerors, through him that loved us. Surely by Romish Logic and and Romish divinity, far more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilate, the priests, and accursed jews that cried, Crucify him, crucify him, then of poor Christ. O you that are bewitched and enchanted by these 
Luk. 23. 21.  Baby lonish charms, will you be led by such guides, who know not the beginnings of Christian religion. If any will be my Disciple, let him take up his cross and follow me, will you 
Math. 16. 24  think that such can guide you to heaven, whose God is the world, whose glory is shame; which mind earthly things? With them no outward prosperity, no Church; no earthly kingdom, no Church; no scarlet coloured beast, 
Phil. 3. 19  no triple crowned Pope, no hatted Cardinals, no mirred Bishops, no Church: But see, the singular boldness of this popish proctor, joined with singular folly. The cursed jews can bring as far fetched antiquicy to prove their Synagove to be the true Church, as the Papists can for theirs. If such antiquity can make you Papists, why may it not as well make you jews? This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 years for the Papacy, not a year or a day less doth he allow to the jewish Synagogue, from whence I thus reason.  
That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed jews as to the Papists, that can never prove the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholic and true Church.  
Antiquity of 1600 years, belongs as much to the cursed jews as to the Papists, as this plain Reasoner confesseth.  
Therefore antiquity of 1600 years, can never prove the Popish Synagogue to be the catholic and true Church.   

PAPIST.  
That our Church hath continued all this while is as certain, for to omit other Provinces and Kingdoms, where it hath been openly known, and not to speak how we can show the continual succession of Bisops in diverse places of Christendom, as Rheimes, Padua, Leigh, and from the Apostles times to these our days, we can here in our country prove the continuance of our religion for these 1600 years, even from the time of Saint Gregory the great, Pope of Rome, who sent hither Saint Austen that converted us Englishmen from Paganism and Idolatry to the faith of Christ, as our own histories teach, and from Saint Gregory we can ascend by the current stream of Popes, his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himself. For that it was our Catholic religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen, no doubt can be made for our chronicles say so much, & the ruins of so many ancient Abbeys lately suppressed do abundantly testify the same, & none of reason or reading will deny it, the thing is so evident and certain; That Saint Gregory likewise coined not a new religion, but kept that which by continual succession descended unto him from Saint Peter, is as sure and certain, for if he had, all the Christian world would have exclained against him, and yet no such complaint is to be found in any History, or writer, but all highly commend him for his holiness and learning, and in our English calendar he is enrolled for a Saint, and the like we may say of all his predecessors: for none of them was ever noted by any to have degenerated in any one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles, and well known it is, that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs, and shed their blood for the name of Christ.   

PROTESTANT.  
That your popish Church hath continued 1600 years, is so certain, as it is that your later Popes have been and are like those 32 Martyrs, whose empty number you bring forth to gain credit unto that degenerate rabble that have succeeded them not in shedding their own blood for the truth of Christ as they did, but in spilling much Christian blood, partly about strange and unjust quarrels, partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their own raising, partly by bloody and fiery persecutions. And therefore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs, is no more credit to you, than succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees, or succession to Aaron was to Annas & Caiaphas. As in place they succeed godly Bishops, so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretics, in irreligion and profanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyry, in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas, and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome, into 
Revel 13. 15.  whose dead image they have put life again. That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus, that of themselves should men arise, speaking perverse 
Acts. 20. 30.  things to draw Disciples after them, hath too long been verified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome. And were that true which you say, that none of the predecessors to Gregory the first, were ever noted by any to have degenerated in any one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers, & the Apostles, which is not unknown to yourselves to be most false, for Alfonsus de Castro doth frankly confess that of Liberius the Pope, it is manifest he was an Arriav, & that Anastasious did favour the Nestorians, 
Adverse. heres. lib. cap. 4.  he that hath read histories doubteth not) ye● if the successors of Gregory have been justly detected some for Atheists, some Conjurers & Necromancers, some for empoisoners, some for villainous cruelty upon the bodies of the quick & dead, some notorious for bastardy, besides other odious sins, generally bribers, Symonists, Epicures, more like to Sardanapalus, or Heliogabolus, than Peter or Paul, must their succession in place to them to whom all other things they are most unlike, carry the Church of God on their sides, your own silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregory the first, by the space of a thousand years, implies a confession that of those there are some at least degenerate from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles, which if with any face you could deny, you would have said as much in them praise with less truth, as you have done of the former but untruly, But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your own Doctor Genebrarde hath 
Chron. lib. 4. verse. 10.  marked about a fifty Popes for the space almost of 150 years, from john the 8. to Leo. 9 as revolters wholly from the virtue of their ancestors, and saith they were Apostatici, apostatici potius quam apostolici, Apostatical rather then Apostolical, yea he calleth them monstrous, which also Platina witnesseth, with a witness of three special ones among the 50. Benedict 9 Silvester 3. and Gregory. 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra, three most hideous monsters, & what might be said of john the 8. otherwise Pope joan, john the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregory 7. Alexander 3. B●niface 8. & john 23. To show how unlike they were to the Martyrs, their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant, and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like, lest their very names might stain their succession, and repeal that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregory your Calendar Saint touching whom, whether he coined any new religion or not, or whether he kept that which by continual succession descended from Saint Peter, how should we more certainly know, then by inquiring into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught, and that not following uncertain tradition which hath proved the Author of deceivable fables, but the certain 
2 Pet. 1. 1●. 19  line of holy scripture, which leads us to Christ himself, who only knew the mind of his father, and hath in his written word revealed it to his Church? For as Cyprian saith, Si ad divinae traditionis caput & originem revertamur, cessat 
Ad Pompey. contr. epist Steph  error humanus, If we return to the head and beginning of divine tradition, (that is, the doctrine which God himself delivered) human error is put down, which that ancient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus; Si canalis quae, etc. If the conduit pipe which before did run in abundance do suddenly fail, do not men use to go to the fountain there to know the reason why it faileth. etc. Quod & nunc facere opportot Dei sacerdotes, etc. which (saith he) the Priests of God keeping Gods commandments must now do, that if the truth have wavered or failed in avie thing, we may return to the original of our Lord, and to the tradition of the Gospel, and of the Apostles, that thence may arise the reason of our doing, from whence the order & original did first spring. Which way to try the truth, so long as you do so diligently shun, and take such pains to bring all religion to the touch of man's uncertain authority, what do you else, but bewray a fearful and guilty conscience, that dare not stand to the evidence of God's word, but in a suit of life and death, salvation and damnation, do willingly suffer the true Charters of divine record to be lost, or at least raked up in the dust, and bring in old men that can say nothing but by hearsay, nay rather young men now to tell what they have heard off, sometime said by old men upon their only bare hearsay. So might the jews have taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouths, and have learned to love their friends & hate their enemies with 
Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings. 22. 8.  other Pharisaical lessons, and let the law of Moses lie in the dust, as it had done before, in the days of Helkias the Priest. But choose you whether you will cease your wrangling about men's names or not, and be it known to you, that we will search the scriptures, in which alone we believe to 
john. 5. 39  have eternal life, and which only bear unto us infallible witness of Christ, and of all true Religion necessary to salvation.  
How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth, when or how shall it be agreed, whether Liws or Clemens succeeded Peter, whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man, or if they be two, which is the first, or which must be put out of the succession, or whether Clemens be before them or either of them: for these uncertainties are in the highest rounds of this your ladder of succession. Tell us whether Pope joave have not made a foul crack in your succession? or what we shall make of your 30. Schisms, whereof the twenty ninth continued the space of 50 years together, first with two Popes at once, then with three, until the Council of Constance removed them all three, and set up Martin 5. since your Church representative in the council judged against them all three, may we not rightly judge that your succesion was quite broken off, and none of these 3, nor they to whom they succeeded, during that Schism were true successors of Peter? How ever it be, make your succession as strong as you can, Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chair they have received Veritatis charisma certum, the undoubted 
Iren, lib. 4. cap. 43.  gift of truth, we make no reckoning of it.  
As for your Austen who (you say) converted us Englishmen, it is well known that this Island had received the faith long before Austen was borne in the days of King Lucius, and even at that time had true religion in better order & in more sincerity than Austen himself, except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vainglorious ceremonies, upon which together with your cloisters and dens, God in his mercy hath brought the confusion of Babel, as appeareth this day, and shall do we trust more and more.   

PAPIST.  
Out of this reason may one quickly learn, that all points of our religion be most true, as praying to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, the Real presence, Confession of sins & though oach one know not how to defend them, nor perceive upon what grounds they stand: for seeing we have now proved that our Church is the true Church of Christ, consequently we are to believe, that which it teacheth, because she cannot err in matters of faith: for if she could, then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ, as members of the false, and not for a wicked life, but for a wrong belief, which cannot be, and to free us from all such doubts, Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. This aught to be a great comfort to all 
1 Tim. 3. 15.  unlearned Catholics, that cannot enter into the deep mysteries of Christian religion.   

PROTESTANT.  
No doubt you must needs prove a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophistical Syllogism, full of equivocation as hath been showed, & from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church invifible, reputation as you say, for the space of 1600. years, which by your own confession will serve the jewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church, yet as if you had stricken the matter dead, presume out of hand that all is proved. You have now proved that your Church is the true Church of Christ. They that will be carried away with such proofs, it skills not greatly of what Church they be. They surely dote upon the Romish harlot and follow her for blind love, and not for reason. But let us further examine how forcibly you build upon this sandy foundation. If your Church be the true Church, than all must be believed that she teacheth. And therefore praying to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, etc. For she cannot err in matters of faith, were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches? Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be joined with faith in Christ, as necessary to 
Gal. 1. 6.  salvation, an error in matter of faith? Did not the Galathians err in that point, in so much that the Apostle reproves them, as those that had removed to another Gospel? If the members of a true church ought to believe all that the church teacheth them, who could blame the Galathians in this point: yet Paul spares not to call them foolish.  
Again, were not the Apostles the true Church, yet did they err even after Christ's resurrection, not only before the receiving of the holy Ghost, but after also, and that in matter of faith, before the holy Ghost came down, they 
Act. 1. 6.  dreamt of restoring the external kingdom of Israel, and that by Christ. After they had received the holy Ghost, 
Act. 10. 14.  Peter judged some meats unclean, and was doubtful of going into the uncircumcised and eating with them until he was better informed by an heavenly vision. Neither was this error proper to him alone (and yet had he been Pastor of Pastors, and the highest Bishop in the Church, from whose lips all truth was to be received, how could the Church have been free from this error? for as Gregory saith, 
Epist. lib. 6. epist. 34.  Si unus Episcopus vocatur universalis, universa Ecclesiacorruit, Si unus universus cadit. That is, If one Bishop be called universal, the whole Church is ruinated, if that one universal do fall,) but common to all the rest of the Apostles, as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles 
Act. 11. 3.  and the Church, for entering in unto Cornelius, and alleging his warrant both by vision and special oracle satisfied them, so as they now first came to discern that God unto the Gentiles also had granted repentance unto life, and 
Vers. 18.  therefore held their peace and glorified God, and also in that when some came from james, he withdrew himself from 
Gal. 2. 12.  the Gentiles, which he would not have done, if the true Church had not as then been unsettled in this point of faith. That which befell unto the Apostolic church, may much more befall unto the church of Rome, as the like hath done unto many other churches, and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church, that either it cannot err, or must needs continue the true church still. Such bragger's as you, were those Rabbis that conspired against jeremy, presuming as you do, that the law should not perish from the Priest, nor counsel from the wise nor 
jer. 18. v. 18.  the word from the Prophets, that is, that the church could not err; but the Lord by Ezechiel tells them that build upon that false principle, that when they shall come to seek a vision of the Prophets, than they shall find that by the just judgement of 
Ezek. 7. ver. 6  God, the law shall perish from the Priest, and council from the Ancient. Which at this day they all find, who feed upon the lying vanities of Popish visions, being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church, which you have put upon your faces. Wherefore if you could prove your Church the true Church, which you can never do, yet should you still come to short of proving that you stand so much in need of, that your Church cannot err, and therefore, Praying to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, etc. must be believed, because your Church teacheth them. God grant that your seduced Clients, 
jere. 2. 13.  may leave these broken pits that will hold no water, and have recourse to the fountain of living waters, the holy scripture, thereby to try every spirit, whether it be of God or no, and not blindly believe every spirit that saith 
john. 4. 1.  it is, of God.  
Yea but say you, If the Church may err in faith, then might we aswell be damned being members of the true Church, as of the false, & that not for a wicked life, but for a wrong faith, which cannot be. First you show of what force all your proofs are, that you are feign so shamelessly to beg that without any proof, which all men know to be most false: for is it so strange to you that a member of a true visible church may be damned even for matter of wrong belief? Are all the members of every true visible Churhc, true and proper members, of the mystical body of Christ? Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians? Behold I Paul say unto every men that is circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing, ye are abolished from Christ, whosoever are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace. And yet they to whom he spoke, were members of a true visible Church. Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong belief.  
Secondly, albiet the true visible Churches may err damnably, as the church of the jews, in condemning Christ, the Arrians in denying his eternal Godhead, yet the true Catholic Church, which is the body of Christ, cannot err damnably, nor any true member thereof, and yet every member of the militant Church may err, but not damnably, for every error is not damnable, no not in matter of faith, some build upon the foundation Timber, hay, and stubble, 
1 Cor. 3. 12. etc.  so long as they build upon the foundation, they themselves shall be saved, but shall suffer loss of their work, by the fiery trial of God's word. Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance even of the true members of the true Catholic Church in this flesh, which is such no one of them can have immunity from error, yet it will not follow that any true member of the Catholic Church can be damned, and yet he may believe amiss in some points of faith, God open the eyes of the blind, that they may discern your dangerous and damnable sleight. You would have all your disciples hold themselves contented only with the Coliars' faith, & to believeth. as the Church believeth, although they know not what the Church believeth. To the intent you may bewitch them, this is your sorcery, you tell them the Church cannot err, meaning your Romish church, & therefore they may securly believe whatsoever you bid them, & so doing shall undoubtedly be saved. A compendious Religion promising unto men salvation. without taking any pains to know the truth of God, to search the scriptures, to try the spirits, and to discern of the true faith. But what saith the scripture? He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, he that believeth not, shall be damned. And what must 
Mark. 16. 16.  they believe that shall be saved? That which the Apostles teach, & what must the Apostles teach? All that Christ commanded. Then must every believer discern the truth of his 
Matth. 28. 20.  faith by the undoubted commandment of Christ, that he may have undoubted comfort of his own salvation. Men will not take money for currant before they have tried it by touch and weight, and will any be so desperately foolish, as to believe every spirit, and receive every doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures, and the weights of God's sanctuary, whether it be of God or no?  
Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar & ground of truth. And this aught to be a great comfort to all unlearned Catholics. It ought so indeed, and to the learned too, that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church, and there only the sheep of God may hear the voice of their Shepherd. Howbeit the unlearned catholics shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome, or think that truth is pinned upon any 
john. 10. 27.  one churches sleeve, or is indefinitely committed to the whole Church, without submission to the trial of scriptures. What is truth, the scriptures only show, where that truth is preserved and taught, there is the true Church: For the Church is the pillar & ground of truth. By the scriptures therefore all true Catholics must learn to know the true church, and receive the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministry of the church, but not upon the bare and only credit of the church: For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place, as opposite to jewish shadows, which sense may very well be followed, and so you have no show of help here. Chrysostome upon the place giveth this sense, Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationem●, quip verit as Ecclesiae & columna & firma●entum est: This is that which keepeth faith and preaching, for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church. Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith, and preacheth the word, as the Pyramid in Paris did keep the memory of your jesuitical parricide, but in another sense the truth by Chrysostoms' judgement is the pillar and firmament of the Church. And Dyonisius Carthusianus, Estque columna & firmamentum verit atis, id est, verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat etc. The pillar and ground of truth (saith he) that is, it doth strongly bear the truth of the gospel note, the truth of the Gospel, which the church hath received, not any truth invented or taught by the church without or beside the Gospel: Therefore out of this place we, thus conclude against you:  

The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth, that is, beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men.  
The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth, for it beareth not the ●ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospel, but her ●●ue superstitions Inventions, besides the Gospel, and contrary to the Gospel, at prayer to Saints, Purgatory, Pardons, Real presence, Eareshrift etc.  
Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God.     

The second Reason.  

PAPIST.  
That is the true faith and religion of Christ, which the ancient and learned Father's tanght & maintained, in the floursshing time of the Primitive Church, that is within the first 600 years next after Christ, and this is so true, that our Adversaries themselves confess it. For M. jewel, sometime of Sarisbury, cried out in this manner, O Gregory, o Leo, o Augustine, o Ambrose, etc., if we be deceived, you have deceived us. The Church of England 
In his challenge. Sermon at Paul's cross.  also continueth their memory in every Calendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles, which favour no question, it would not afford them, if it judged them Heretics or false teachers. And as no Protestant (I think) dare say, that they be damned in hell for heretical or false doctrine: So, most sure I am, that any of reason ought rather to rely his salvation upon them that lived so near Christ, then upon such as live now, and be partial in their own cause.   

PROTESTANT.  
The flower of your reasons is now gone, and indeed a flower, for the bright beams of truth, shining from the Sun of righteousness, in the firmament of his word, hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beauty of this your vain & best reason.  
The second reason coming to rescue the former, at unawares, thinking to smite his enemy, wounded his fellow to the heart: For if the long continued pomp of your supposed Church be proof enough that yours for sooth is the true Church, and if the privilege of the true church which you challenge to yours be, that it cannot err, and consequently we are to believe what your Church teacheth, what needed you then to have abated this last 1000 years and to appeal to the flourishing time of the Primitive church within the first 600 years? Surely this is a plain confession against yourselves, that your long continued Church comes much short in dignity, credit and authority of those 600 years. Else why do you not rest contented with your own testimony, as being the present Oracle of the church, but are feign to borrow proof of the Primitive Church, considering that if long continuance be the matter, though your persons be younger and your age but of yesterday, yet by the addition of so many years, your Church hath a graver head, and surely more wrinkles in her face, then in those former times she had; If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more strongly prove the truth, then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetched from the early beginnings of the church, then from the long continued & doting age, (as plainly appeareth) of your Church. And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 years, they proved their doctrines, and maintained every truth, not by the face of long time, but by the authority of the first times, wherein Christ and his Apostles, undoubtedly taught the truth, and by undoubted records of divine inspiration, that is the holy scriptures, commended the same to all posterity. Augustine. Epist. 19 ad Hieron. Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur etc. I have learned to yield only to those books of scripture, which are now called Canonical, that fear & hever, that I firmly believe no author of them in writing to have committed any error, others I so read, that how holy or learned soever they be, I do not therefore think a matter to be true, because they so thought, but because they were able to persuade me, either by those canonical authors, or by probable reason, that it swarneth not from truth. And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist. Epist. 48. N●l● contra divina testimonia etc. Have no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops together cavils against the divine testimonies, first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon, etc. But let us see your reason.  
That is the true faith, which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 years. But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants: Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants.  
First, is your Proposition universal or indefinite? If you say, The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessary to salvation, we will not stick with you: but if you say that withal they taught nothing swerving from the true faith, neither can we yield it unto you, neither do the Fathers themselves yield it one to another, neither doth any one of them presume to challenge so much to himself, neither will yourselves (I am sure) generally also affirm. You know the contrary of Tertullian, Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Jerome nor allow whatsoever himself had written, and these things are not unknown to you, nor unconfessed by you. Wherefore if you will have your proposition universally taken, it is false, that whatsoever the Fathers taught, is the true faith. If indefinitely, then will it fall out to be only particular of some things, (suppose the most things) that the ancient learned Fathers taught, that they agreed with the true faith. So that if you could prove that your Popish faith, consisting in the points of your novelties unknown to Christ and his Apostles, and of your Apostafie from the true faith, did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers, yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith, unless you could manifestly prove that the Fathers therein held the true faith: For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworn rites of ancient times, as Unctions, Exorcisms, etc. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors, as prayer for the dead, partly proceedeth on boldly to affirm of those things whereof they spoke doubtfully, as Purgatory, partly perverteth and abuseth their words against their meanings, sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically, as Sacrifice, Oblation, Priest, Altar, etc. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they bear by proportion of their writings, to that bad and absurd sense, which since you have violently drawn them to, as Merit, Poenitentiam agere, Confession, Satisfaction, etc.  
Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught, wherein the Protestants therefore follow them, because they have followed the Scriptures, as hath been often maintained, proved and demonstrated to your stopped ears and hardened hearts.  
Briefly, the Proposition universally understood is false. The Assumption universally understood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith. Therefore the conclusion follows not.  
But let us see how strongly, or rather strangely, you prove your Proposition. First, you say it is so true that your adversaries confess it: for M. jewel sometime of Sarisburie, etc. That godly and learned Bishop was confident, that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of any Father or Council, for the space of 600. years after Christ, to prove any of those points named in that challenge, not that he made Fathers or Counsels the rule of his faith, but rather affirmeth with Augustine, Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam 
De bono viduit. cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine. Rom. 1. 16.  figit; and if he had found either in Fathers or Counsels any thing swerving from this rule, he would have forsaken them and cleaved to the Scriptures, as he hath told you in his learned Apology. We know that the Gospel of jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, and that therein consisteth eternal life. And as Paul warneth us, we do not hear, no 
Gal. 1. 8.  not an Angel of God, though he come from heaven, if he go about to pull us from any part of this Doctrine.  
Secondly, (you say) the Church of England continueth their memory in the Calendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles, etc. What mean you so to overreach? doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles? for so much you would imply, and must, or else it comes too short of your purpose. The Church of England preserveth their memory as of godly and painful men, that bestowed themselves to serve the Church of God, but yet it doth not lift them above the degree of men, and therefore doth not exempt them from erring, nor their writings from errors, which immunity is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God, and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men never so godly or learned, so long as they are written only by a pri●at spirit. Neither is every teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher, much less as an heretic: and therefore it may be doubted and denied, that all that the Fathers of those times have written is true, and yet they not reputed either as heretics or false teachers.  
Thirdly, you say, No Protestant (you think) dare say, that they are damned in hell. No verily, and yet you, picking out those errors which unto them were venial, because they built upon the foundation, which is jesus Christ alone, and making them principles of your faith and religion, and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ, may be damned in so doing. except you repent.  
Fourthly, Most sure (you say) you are that any of reason ought rather to rely his salvation upon them that lived so near Christ, then upon such as live now, and are partial in their own cause. Men of reason in matters of reason, may rely upon men. But men of faith in matters of salvation, will rely only upon Christ, the Author, finisher and foundation of our faith, the 
Heb. 12. 2, 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. john. 14. 6.  Prince and Mediate or of our salvation, the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and undoubted way unto eternal life, in a word, the only way, the only truth, the only life.  
But see with what cunning you deal. Your simple sheep must rely their salvation upon those Fathers; who those Fathers were, what they wrote, and how they shall understand them you must be their interpreters. So in effect, they must rely their salvation upon you, which is against your own rule. For you live now and are justly to be supposed partial in your own cause.  
Again, in this your comparison of persons, upon whom we ought rather to rely our faith, mark how slily you shut out Christ and his word, and seek to cast an imputation upon the Protestants, that they teach men to rely their faith upon them, which is as far from them, as it is from you to teach your Disciples to rely their faith upon Christ and his word. No, no, we counsel the faithful, as Christ our Master doth, to search the Scriptures, and with the Apostle to 
john. 5. 39  build their faith upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, 
Eph, 2. 20.  whereof jesus Christ is the head and corner stone.  
Lastly, God open your eyes to acknowledge the strength of truth, which out of your own mouth, beareth witness against yourself, you say that men ought rather to rely their salvation upon them that lived so near Christ. Ought not then all faithful men most of all to rely their salvation upon them that lived nearest unto Christ? And who lived nearer him than the holy Apostles and Evangelists? Or what writings came more immediately from him than theirs? especially considering that these were chosen by himself, to be his witnesses unto all the ends of the world, and 
Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13  unto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God.  
Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accord with you in the truth, we confess and grant that faithful men ought to rely their salvation rather upon 
Psal. 19 4. Rom. 10. 18.  those that saw the Lord jesus Christ, and were his witnesses, and have stretched out the line of their writings to the world's end, them upon any, or all that have been since whether they be Counsels, Popes, Bishops or Doctors, of what place, holiness or learning soever.  
Thus forcibly have you proved your Proposition, that whatsoever the fathers of the first 600. years wrote is thetrue faith: for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serve your turn, the best and strongest part of your proof. which you have set in the last place, makes most against yourself, as hath been showed.  
Now then let us come to your Assumption.   

PAPIST.  
But as certain it is, that they were of our religion, and not of the Protestants, which is so evident, that no man which peruseth their works can make any doubt thereof, and to give an instance, Saint Austen that lived 1200. years ago, and was so wonderful for learning, that happily since the Apostles time the world had never his like: one whom the Protestants also soeme most to admire and like of, and this ancient, holy, and learned Father believed and taught them, yea and the whole Church of his time, a● we believe & teach now. If any man make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De civitate Dei, & he shall find as much as I affirm, concerning prayer to Saints, reverence to Relics, and Pilgrimage to holy places, three of the most odious points, as they think, in all our religion.   

PROTESTANT.  
To prove that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion, and not of the Protestants, you tell us that one of them (S. Augustine) was so. Doth this prove that all were so? Next how prove you that Saint Augustine was so? because (as you pretend) he held some points of your religion, as Prayer to Saints, reverence to Relics, Pilgrimage to holy places, prayer for the dead. Do these points comprehend all your religion? Again may it not be, that Augustine being a man, erred in some points, and you make choice of those his errors, as most suitable to your religion, & yet otherwise Augustine confirm the Protestants religion by his testimony, as indeed he doth,? Such force is in your forcible reasons.  
But let us see how you prove that Augustine was of your religion in the three points above named, Prayer to Saints, reverence to relics, and pilgrimage to holy places? you refer him that doubteth hereof to his 22. book and 8 chap. De civitate Dei. Where, in your sense, we find not one of these and some not at all. No one word in all that chapter of praying to Satuts, and least as you do, any man should falsely so conceive, Augustine in the 10. chapter following, where he speaketh of the same matter still, giveth this express caveat. Nos martiribus nostris non templasicut Dijs etc. We build no temples to our Martyrs, as unto Gods, but memories (or monuments) as unto dead men, whose spirits live with God, neither do we there erect altars, upon which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs, but we offer sacrifice to God only, the Martyr's God, and ours, at the which sacrifice, as men of God, who in his confession have overcome the world in their place and order they are named, yet are they not prayed unto by the Priest that sacrificeth. What could be more plainly spoken against prayer to Saints, and who but a Papist would have alleged Augustine for prayer to Saints, who hath so expressly gainsaid it?  
reverent use of the Relics of Martyrs, by honestly laying up their bones, and continuing their memories, Augustine there acknowledgeth: but of Popish reverence to Relics, by kneeling, kissing or trust in them, Augustin hath not a syllable, nay he showeth plainly in the last words of that chap that the faith and trust of Christian was not in the Martyrs, but in Christ, for whom the Martyrs, and namely Stephen, shed his blood. Of resorting to the memories of Martyrs, Augustine there speaketh, but in what sort? It pleased God for confirmation of that faith, wherein the Martyrs died, at their memories to do many miracles, where God lifted up the sign of his power, thither the faithful resorted, what is this to your Popish Pilgrimage, to Relics & Shrines, whereof there is now no certainty whose they were, nor any miracles wrought by the power of God. where they are, and if the true Relics of true Martyrs were there yet to suppose more holiness there, or more ready acceptance with God, or access unto him there, then in other places, is contrary to the express rule of our Saviour Christ in the 4. of john. wherefore 
john. 4. 21. 23.  the cause of such resort now ceasing, and being indeed not needful (as Augustine in the entrance of that chapter saith, that before the world did believe, Miracles were necessary, that the world might believe, but now whosoever inquireth after strange wonders that he may believe, is himself a strange wonder who when the world believeth, himself believeth not.) The cause I say ceasing the effect ceaseth, as when God left to send down Manna, the people gave over looking after it, neither did the godly Israelites look any longer to the brazen serpent, then while it was erected by God's appointment for them to look on that they might be healed: To conclude, for Prayer to Saints, revorence to Relics, Popish 
Ios. 5. 12.  pilgrimage to holy places, in your sense, and as you practise them, Augustin. in all that chapter hath not one word. Let 
Numb. 21. 8 9  us now see how happy you are in the rest that speed so ill in these.   

PAPIST.  
Again the cause is so clear that our Adversaries do confess it, as might be showed in many questions, two or three will I speak of. Caluine cannot deny but that blessed Monica, S. Augustine's 
Inst. lib. 3. cap. 5. Sec. 10.  mother desired to have her soul prayed for, & that her son satisfied her request accordingly. These be his words, Augustine in his book of Confessions telleth how that his mother Monica earnestly requested to be remembered at the Altar, at such times as the mysteries were in celebrating: a doting request, which her son did not examine according to the rule of Scripture: and a little before in the same place thus: whereas my adversaries (quoth he) object against me, that it was a received custom 1300. years past, to pray for the dead. I likewise demand of them, what word of God, what revelation, what example they had so to do, out of which words we see how he confesseth, that the Primitive Church believed as we do about Prayer for the dead, which is the thing that here I intent to prove. And though malapertly he contemneth them all, as though forsooth they wanted the word of God, yet what man of reason and judgement can think that they lacked sufficient warrant for that their belief and common practice whatsoever he saith to the contrary.   

PROTESTANT.  
Your Adversaries do confess that Augustine did favour & allow some kind of prayer for the dead, but your adversaries deny that Augustine allowed prayer for the dead, as now the Popish Church doth hold and teach it: For first touching Purgatory, Augustine resolveth not certainly whether there be any or no, the sum of that he saith, comes to no more 
De ciu. Dei. lib. 21. cap. 26.  than this. I reprove it not, because peradventure it is true, or if he do resolve any thing it is quite against it, as there is no middle place for any, that he may be any where but with the devil, 
De pen. merit. & remiss.  that is, not with Christ. Again, The first place the faith of Catholics by divine authority believeth to be the kingdom of heaven. The second hell. Of any third we are utterly ignorant, nay, we cannot 
Hypognost. lib. 5  find it in the holy scriptures, your popish prayers for the dead, supposing that there is a Purgatory, either Augustine's prayer for the dead, was another matter then your Popish prayer, to wit, a well wishing to them out of the charity of the living, not amending the condition of the dead, but testifying the hope that the living faithful have of that mercy which the dead in the Lord find with him expressed by this wishing prayer, so he affirmeth in his prayer for his mother Monica. And I believe that thou hast already done that which I ask of 
Conses. lib. 9 cap. 13.  thee, but o Lord, approve the voluntaries (or wishes) of my mouth: or else Augustine had no better resolution touching this prayer than he had touching Purgatory, which is none at all, as appeared by the slender proof he makes thereof, alleging only the book of Macchabees. not allowed of the ancients for Canonical scripture & as not greatly trusting to that flying 
De cura prom●r. cap.  to the authority of long continued custom, and he is so doubtful of the matter, that he dare not take upon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the prayers of the living are remitted to the dead, what those sins are, saith he which so hinder coming to the kingdom of heaven, that yet through the merits of their holy friends they obtain pardon after death, it is most hard to find, most dangerous to define. I surely even until this time, although I have taken pains enough about it, yet could never 
De civi. Dei. lib. 21. cap. 27.  attain to search it out Secondly Augustine so prayeth for his mother Monica, that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtained remission of all her sins, by the blood of Christ, dispensed to her waiting daily at his Altar, he therefore prayeth only that it may be unto her according to her faith, that she may be preserved from the powers of darkness, & receive the 
1 Pet. 1. 9  end of her faith the salvation of her soul, that is, he prayeth for her consummation in the kingdom of God, & of Christ. For Augustine himself confesseth. Therefore no new merits are purchased for the dead, when their friends do any good for them, but these things are recompensed to their former merits. 
De verb. Apost. Ser. 32  What is this to Popish prayer for the jail delivery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory, of whom you fain that many are the sooner delivered by your lip-labors, a devise of late times, to improve the Pope's revenues, and to enrich Cloisters and idle bellies.  
Lastly, Augustine himself, being so unsettled in the matter of Prayer for the dead, that he is feign to bring strange interpretations of the use of Prayer, and other charities for the dead. For these being generally done for all the dead, he saith, that For those that are very good, they are thanksgivings, for those that are very evil, although they be no help to them, yet are they comforts to the living, and yet after that he saith, they avail to make their pains lighter, and their damnation more tolerable, which if it be so, is some help: for the middle sort they are propitiations, that is, supplicatory prayers for pardon of their sins, which yet speaking of his mother Monica, he saith, she had in her life time. And to salve the 
Confess. lib. 9 cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10.  Scripture which saith, that every one shall receive according to that he hath done in his life, he is feign to say, that these in their life time deserved to have benefit by the Church's prayers, which what it is else, but remission of sins? Augustine, I say, being thus enwrapped in uncertainties, marvel you that Caluine said it was anile votum, etc. an old woman's desire, which her son did not examine by the rule of Scripture, but of a natural affection, was desirous to approve unto others? Where resolution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant, whatsoever you say to the contrary.   

PAPIST.  
About particular and auricular confession of sins, we have also the authority of antiquity, as the same Caluine informeth 
Inst. lib. 3. cap. 4. sec. 7. Auricular confession ancient.  us. I marvel (quoth he) with what face they dare contend, that the confession whereof they speak, was ordained by God's law, the use whereof I confess was passing ancient, but easily can I prove that in old time it was free. Nay then, with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by God's law? For what man of reason can think that antiquity would have used it, had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles, or what power could have brought it into the Church, it being so contrary to our proud nature, had not the Son of God himself planted that doctrine? But it was free in old time, saith he. What then? For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in old time? If then the Church of England may make a law, to bind men once in the year to the Communion, may not the Catholic Church do the like for confession? Still Caluine giveth us the ancient Fathers, but reserveth the Scriptures for himself, we take what be granteth, but deny what he requireth.   

PROTESTANT.  
Confession of some particular sins, specially such as lay heavy upon the conscience (but not of every particular sin with every circumstance, and that to every parish priest in secret, which is your popish eareshrift) such confession, I say, to a Priest by special order of the Churches appointed thereunto, Caluine doth confess, and well may, to be very ancient, and yet maintain popish eare-thrift to be very young as receiving his first authority from the Laterane council under Innocentius 3. in the year of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you. But you ask with what face be dare that it was ordained by God's law? For (you say) what man of reason can think that antiquity would have used it, had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles? Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason, though he show the antiquity of offerings for the 
De Coron, milit.  dead, yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it. Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace, when you thus conclude. Antiquity used confession of particular sins to a Priest: Therefore it was ordained by God's law. Besides doth not M. Caluine prove unto you that antiquity held it not to be of divine institution? for otherwise Nectarias' Bishop of Constantinople, would not have abrogated it for the abuse of it, neither would Chrysostome after him, have given so much liberty from such confession as he doth, as he is alleged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention. See 
Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8.  therefore with what face you challenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proof. The proof by him there alleged, I set not down at large, because, if you will, you may as easily find them set down by him, as you could find this piece by you alleged.  
But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that you pretend, if Caluins' proofs persuade you not, see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth. Moreover for no other cause have we here used the testimonies of many, then to this end, that no man 
Arg●●, in Tertul. lib. de penitent.  should marvel that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this corner or secret confession of sins committed, which at that time was utterly unknown. And in another place, in his book De poenitentia, 
Admonit, de Tertul, dogmat.  he mentioneth only public confession: And again, Not only in Tertullian, but even in those which lived many ages after, there is only mention of public penance and confession. If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles, it could not have been so early and so long out of use. Such is the antiquity of your Eareshri●t.  
Your next reason to derive it from Christ and his Apostles is, because it being a thing so contrary to our proud nature, had not the Son of God himself planted the doctrine, no power could have brought it into the Church. Is it not contrary to the high estate of Kings that are in God's steed upon earth, to submit their sceptres to the Pope of Rome, to lie down for him to tread on their necks, to kiss his foot, and his Legates knee, to hold his stirrup, to lead his horse by the bridle, and go on foot by him, to suffer him to pill and poll their countries by his provisions, dimes, annates, and such other exactions, and to sequester out of their hands, spiritual causes and persons and to draw them to the Court of Rome? The tyranny of the Pope of Rome hath brought these wonders to pass: will you thereof conclude, that the son of God hath planted these tyrānies● so may you conclude for 
1 King. 18. 18.  Baal's Priests; it is a thing so contrary to the tender nature of man, for men to gash and lance their own flesh, that no power could have brought it into use, if God himself had not planted it. So may you conclude, for those that caused 
2 King. 23. 10.  their sons and daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech, that no power could have brought them to it, it being so contrary to natural piety, if God himself had not planted it. The scripture hath told us what Antichrist shall do. He shall make all both small and great, rich and poor free 
Apoc. 1●. 1●. Apoc. 17. 3.  and bond, to receive his mark in their right hand or in their foreheads, and the Kings of the earth shall give their power and authority to the beast. In a word, superstition hath carried idolaters to cruelty, against their own bodies and flesh: foolish prodigality of their own substance base servility in their own persons, and extreme fury in their minds and senses, as the idolatries of the Gentiles do abundantly prove.  
Now to that which Caluine saith, in old time it was free, when you cannot deny it, which is sufficient to convince the tyranny of your Romish torturing shrift, you say, Do we not know that the communion was so in old time? you may know that the Church in old time did celebrate the Lords supper on every Lord's day, as for the people they did not require them all of necessity to receive every day, yet appointed them to receive at least at the Nativity of our Lord, at Easter and Pentecost, as appeareth in Concil. Agathe●s. alleged De Consecrat. dist. 2. cap. seculares. Not thereby exempting them to receive no oftener, but exhorting them to receive often; and yet providing that at least they should receive at some times. What sopln strie is this, because at other times of the year they were free to choose at what time besides the three named they would communicate, so they did all communicate then, therefore the communion was in old time free, as if the Church required no man at any time to receive the communion? Thus wily you are to beguile yourself, and those that will be led by you. Christ left it not free for Christians to communicate or not to communicate, neither did the Church of old time so observe it. Christ left it free for men to confess in the ear of a Priest, or not to confess, and the Church of old time so observed it. Will any man now say, that the communion in old time was so free as auricular confession was? wherefore although the Church of England treading in the steps of the ancient Church, may make a law to bind men to the communion, three times in the year, yet may not any Church make the like law, for your auricular confession unless they can show as good warrant for the institution thereof, as they can for the institution of the Lords supper. By the way, let be here observed that you thus wrangling against Caluine to make a show as if Christ himself and his Apostles had planted ●urioular confession, bring not one word of Scripture to prove it.   

PAPIST.  
Concerning also the sacrifice of the Altar, and the Real presence (no small pointr) we have antiquitre on our side: For S●int Austen is therein so plain in his Manuel, that one Thomas Rogers, an English man, who hath translated that book, is enforced to alter one whole Chapter, to make the holy Doctor against his will, 
Chapter. 11. Printed by Peter Short. 15 97.  to agree with their doctrine. Another chapter there is (quoth he) though not clean left out, yet applied from an ill to a good purpose, as the 11. chapter, where that which was spoken of the sacrifice of the Altar, is applied unto our sacrifice of thanksgiving, or of the Real & car●●lpresence of Christ, unto his spiritual being at the communion. Thus we b●●e. S. Austen of our opinion, ● our enemy confeseth, and so consequently the rest of the Fathers: For no reason ●●●one us to think that he did in so important a matter dissent from all other of his time. Many more questions might he touched, wherein they grant us venerable antiquity; but these few being very weighty, may suffice for all such as he desirous of truth and salvation of their souls.   

PROTESTANT.  
What Master Rogers hath done in translating Augustine's Manuel, and namely the eleventh chapter, I know not, because I have not his book, but sure I am, he needed not alter or decline one word there written by Augustine, for fear to give any countenance to Popish sacrifice or carnal presence. All that Augustine hath here in show to serve your turn, is that he calleth the Lord's supper, Mirabile & caleste sacrificium, a wonderful and heavenly sacrifice. But what meaneth he by the term sacrifice? himself there interpreteth, namely that Christ ordained it to be offered in commemorationem mortis & passionis, for a remembrance, not for a repetition of his death and passion. Likewise in other places he speaketh to the same purpose, as count Faust. lib. 20. cap. 21. Huius sacrificis caro & sanguis etc. The flesh and blood of this sacrifice before the coming of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance, in his passion it was delivered or rendered by the truth itself, but after the ascension of Christ, it is celebrated by the sacrament of remembrance, and Epist. 23. he saith, that Christ is offered up in the sacrament, for the similitude between the sacrament and the thing whereof it is a sacrament, that is, the offering of Christ, and generally of every sacrifice else where he saith, The visible sacrifice is asacrament, that is, an holy sign of the invisible 
De Ciu. Dei. lib. 10 cap. 5.  sacrifice. And as he is alleged, De Consecra. Dist. 2. cap. Hoc est. The offering of the flesh, which is done by the Priest's hands, is called Christ's passion, death, crucifying, not in truth of the thing, but in a signifying mystoris. And the gloss upon that chapter in the word Calestis, Heavonlic, that is, the heavenly sacrament which truly representeth Christ's flesh, is called Christ's body, but improperly: wherefore it is called after the sort thereof, but not in truth of the thing, but in a signifying mystery: So as the meaning is, It is called the body of Christ, that is, it signifieth. And in a word, because you bite so hard upon the word Sacrifice, wheresoever you find it, in Augustine or others, let Augustine himself interpret what force that word hath, & how it is to be taken, A true sacrifice (saith he) is every work which is done, that by a holy fellowship we may cleave fast to God, 
De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6.  to wit, referred to that end of good, by which we may truly be blessed. Which in the end of that chapter he apply to the sacrament. This is the sacrifice of Christians, we being many are one body in Christ, which also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar known to the faithful doth frequently observe. Thus have you no help from Augustine, for your gross opinion of carnal presence, and for your Popish sacrifice, and consequently by your own forcible reason, from none of the rest of the Fathers, for no reason, as you say, can move usto think that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time. Now therefore out of the examination of those few questions, let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their souls, discern what help you have from venerable antiquity for your Popish and Romish Superstition.    

PAPIST.  

The third reason.  
Sundry points of our Religion generally misliked by our adn●rsartes, before all that true, according to their own principles, and consequently agreeable to sacred Scripture, this though it seem strange, yet is i● thus plainly proved. In their communion book authorized by act of Parliament we find prescribed how the sick person ought to make a special confession of his sins to the 
In the visitation of the sick, special confession.  Priest, and it will not help them to say that they are not bound to confess all their sins, but such only as do trouble their conscience. for what if all that come to mind do trouble them, as we think all should, seeing all according to their doctrine, be mortal and damnable. And beside gladly would I know that text of Scripture, which commandeth the confession of some sins and not of all let them name the place. secondly. we find there also prescribed, how after confession the Priest must absolve him in this manner, Our Lord jesus Christ, etc. and by his authority committed to 
Absolution from sins.  me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost. What words for the Priest's absolution can be wished more plain, being the same in English which in Latin be used in the Catholic Church.   

PROTESTANT.  
No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of Protestant principles, you would take in hand to prove the truth of Popish religion, which either you do to spend some time in idle talk to no purpose, or else you must needs ascribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles: for thus your reason must be framed.  
Whatsoever agreeth with the Protestant principles, is true: Sundry points of Popish religion agree with Protestant principles: Therefore sundr●e points of Popish religion are true.  
We thank you for yielding true witness to the Protestant religion, and yet we thank you not much, for sure it was against your will, and was only upon some hope to countenance Popery by the means. Again, see another reason of your own making for the truth of Protestant religion. Sundry points of our religion are true, according to the Protestant principles, and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your own reason into form will it not be this?  
Whatsoever is true according to Protestant principles, is agreeable to sacred scriptures;  
Sundry points of Popery are true according to Protestant principles:  
Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures.  
We thank you the second time, for confessing so clearly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures. And in kindness towards you for your double testimony so frankly afforded for the truth of Protestant religion, we are bound to yield thus much unto you, that if any point of Popery be true according to the principles of our religion, then surely it is agreeable to sacred scriptures: For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture, as very ingeniously you have confessed, and I hope will not revoke.  
But indeed strange it were, as out of a faint heart you confess that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles, and therefore doubtless you are out of hope to prove any point of Popery true by that means.  
Let us see then what be the points Our Communion book would have the sick person visited to make a special confession of he feel his conscience troubled with any weighty matter, and when he hath so done, willeth the Priest to absolve him by the authori●e of Christ. What of all this? Is this popish Eareshrift? the book saith a special, not an auricular confession. Secondly doth the book set the sick man's conscience upon the rack to reveal to the Priest all his sins by number with the time, place, and manner, as without which he cannot be saved? you find no such matter there; only the Church gives him advise for the ease of his conscience, to unburden himself by confession of those sins, which at that time trouble his conscience. Thirdly if no sin at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any confession; and if any sin hath troubled his conscience in former time, if by confessing the same to any faithful Christian brother, he have received comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visit him, he is not ensnared with any scruple of conscience, that except he confess it to the Priest he cannot be forgiven.  
You object, First what if all his sins that come to mind trouble his conscience, as you think all should, seeing according to our doctrine all be mortal and damnable. I answer, what if they do not trouble his conscience? then doth our book require no confession at his hands, whereas all must of necessity come to your Popish shrift, whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way, all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds, that leaves men under the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sins they can remember, and that even in the hour of death. The holy Apostle Saint Paul, 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had been a blasphemer, a persecutor, and oppressor, yet was not his conscience troubled at this time: for he addeth presently that he was received to mercy. It could not be that he should apprehend and apply to himself the mercy of God, forgiving his sins, and have his conscience in regard of those sins still troubled. It is therefore untrue and showeth want of faith that you say, you think all the sins that come to mind should trouble a Christian man's conscience. And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit, which is the Spirit of bondage, and not of adoption, of fear, and not of promise. We say indeed that death is the 
Rom. 8. 15. & 6, 23.  wages of all sin, and therefore all sin is mortal and damnable, but we say that no sin shall be laid to the charge of Gods 
Rom. 8. 33. 34.  chosen, whom none shall condemn, because God himself justifieth them Christ died, and rose again for them.  
Secondly you object, that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sins, commandeth as well the confession of all. It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confess all sins, but to God. Of confession to men there is no other commandment but general; Confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another: Which 
james 5. 16.  gives as much authority to every brother, as to a Priest to hear confessions: For of confession in the ear of a Priest, you can show no tittle in the scripture. Howbeit as by the advise and counsel of holy Scripture, Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithful brethren, to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers, so we think it also a godly course and a ready mean to find comfort, if the sheep of the flock do open their wounds to their pastor, who hath wisdom and faithfulness to power in wine and oil, that is, to minister unto them the word of admonition and consolation; and this is the meaning of our Communion book, but what is this to Popish Ear shrift?  
Yea, but the book prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolve him, and the manner of words. You should have dealt faithfully, if you had set down the whole truth. Our book appointeth the Priest first to pray unto our Lord jesus Christ, that he would grant unto the sick person truly repenting and believing in him, forgiveness of all his sins, as acknowledging it to be the only right of the Lord jesus Christ to forgive sins. Secondly, presupposing the sick man truly to repent and to believe in Christ, it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve repentant sinners (which power is then executed by the Priest) to absolve the sick from all sins. To absolve, I say, not to forgive: For Christ only forgiveth, as our book there understandeth forgiveness, and as it is understood in the Lord's prayer, and as it is understood in the Lord's prayer, and is interpreted by the Prophet David, Psalm, 32. 1. 2. By covering and not imputing sins. The Church by her ministers absolveth, that is, declareth to the repentant and believing by authority of Christ's promise, 
Sent. lib. 4. Dist. 18. Nec ideo & seq.  that their sins are forgiven. So saith Peter Lombard, This truly we may say and think, that only God remitteth and retaineth sins, and yet hath given power to his church to bind and loose; but he bindeth and looseth after one sort, and the church after another: For he bindeth by himself only, so he forgiveth sin, because he both cleanseth the soul from the inward blot, and looseth it from the debt of eternal death. But he hath not granted so much to the Priests, to whom he hath only given power to bind and loose, that is, to show that ●en are either bound or loosed. And Bonaventure in his disputes upon it, expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet, ●ed nullius potestatis iura exercet. That is, the Priest executeth his office, but exerciseth not the right of any power, writeth thus. For Ambrose means to say that sins are said to be remitted of the Priest, not in manner of a doer, but in manner of a minister. Against both Ambrose 
Non per modum efficientis, sed per modum ministrantis. Con●●l. ●rid. Sess. 4. cap. 6. can. 9  and your Master of the sentences, your Tridentine council crieth Anathema, giving to the Priest in their sacramental absolution, not a bare ministry to pronounce and declare, but a judicial act, whereby the sentence is pronounced by him, as by the judge. So making the comfort of him that is absolved, to depend not only upon Christ's promise, but upon the person of the Priest absolving, which is far from the doctrine or meaning of our Church, either in the Communion book or any where else. And therefore what affinity soever be between your Latin words and our English, there is no affinity between that comfortable absolution which our book appoineth God's minister in the name of Christ, to publish to the humble and repentant sinner, and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution. Lastly, this order of confession and absolution, as they are set down in the communion book, is indeed some part of the practice of our relition, but no principle of our religion, and therefore you do much abuse your Clients, when you make them believe that this and other orders, are any of the principles of our religion.   

PAPIST.  
Thirdly, the book alloweth the sign of the Cross in Baptism, why then is it not likewise lawful in other things? What word of 
The sign of the Cross. Images.  God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other? and if the sign of the Cross be good, why not also other images, especially of Christ crucified? That te●t which they can bring to iustific the one, will also serve for the other: and that which they shall allege to overthrow the image of the Crucifix, will give small rest to the sign of the Cross.   

PROTESTANT.  
It is false that you say, that the book alloweth the sign of the Cross in Baptism. That sign by the ordinance of the book hath nothing to do in Baptism. It is only made a sign of confession after Baptism, which use our Church having received as continued from antiquity in that manner without interruption, considering how notably it served the faithful in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified, thought meet still to retain. But as for reviving any other use of it after so long disuse, our Church thought, it might rather tend to superstition, then to edification; the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitive simplicity of the vulgar use thereof among the first Christians. There is no word of God that willeth the use of it, nor any word of God, that I know, that forbiddeth the bare use of it. It grew out of a desire the faithful had to testify before the enemies of Christ, their faith in Christ crucified. In the use thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort, not having confidence in the sign, but in Christ whom they confessed by that sign. Neither was any of them ever heard to say, ave cruxspes vnie●, Hatle o cross our only hope. As touching the match of equality that you make between the sign of the Cross and the Crucifix, you may well think that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifix, namely above 600. years, and yet so early using 
Sexta Synod. Can 82.  the sign of the Cross, did acknowledge no small difference between the one and the other. A transient sign to signify in gesture, that which the word signifieth in speech, and that only for means of confession, differeth much from an image made to represent the Son of God, whose Godhead no colours, nor proportion can express, whose Manhood is not the whole of his person, whose nature, person and suffering is sufficiently, yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and hear, neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifix, which is to be known, believed & remembered of Christ and his sufferings, according to the description of his word. To leave the Scriptures & follow a crucifix, is to go from the Sun in the firmament, to the sign of the sun painted in a table: To add to the word the help of the crucifix, is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word. The sign of the Cross had no such use in the beginning, neither hath now with us, and therefore differeth largely from the sign of the crucifix: But it is worth the marking, how barely you bring into comparison, first the use of the sign of the Cross among us, and the use thereof in popery. Do we teach to trust in that sign? Do we pray to it? do we worship it? do we bless with it? do we fence & arm ourselves with it? these are your Idolatries which you slily pass over, as if there were a like use of the sign of the Cross with us and with you Papists. Secondly, the sign of the Cross, and the image of the crucifix, as if you did only make the image of the crucifix historically and not to worship it. When we commit idolatry with the sign of the Cross, then compare our use thereof, with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe. Lastly, remember here also that which I spoke of the former; The sign of the Cross is only an indifferent external rite among us, It is neither principle, nor second, nor third, nor fourth, nor any point of our Religion.   

PAPIST.  
Fourthly, in Baptism they use Godfathers and abrenunciation: Why not also other ceremonies, namely holy Oil and Exorcism? 
Holy oil. Exorcism.  Read the Scriptures, and as little there is for the first, as the last. Ask the ancient Fathers, and as much is found for the last, as for the first.   

PROTESTANT.  
In the administration of the holy Sacraments, the nearer we come to the institution of Christ, the more chaste and incorrupt we esteem the administration of them to be and therefore have taken that liberty, which the Church of God ever used, no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone, than we do evidently see to serve for edification. By which rule no doubt sundry ceremonies of ancient time used, afterward grew out of use, as namely in Baptism, the tasting of milk and honey, with certain other ceremonies, either for comeliness or instruction taken up in the primitive Church, which afterwards were laid down again, as the times and growth of the Church saw most convenient.  
As touching Godfathers and abrenunciation; for that the one hath a good use as well to provide, that only the children of believing parents be brought to Baptism, as also to commit the care of the infant's education to men for godliness and sound faith approved, and the other expresseth the covenant on the behalf of the infant baptised, wherewith he standeth charged, the mention whereof serveth as well to call to the minds of others before baptised what they own to God by the covenant between God and them sealed in baptism, as also to enter the obligation of the infant's faith and obedience, whereunto as soon as his years admit, he must know himself to be bound by the law of his baptism: Therefore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification, and that the end of Baptism may be attained, hath upon good reason continued these two. When you shall be able to show unto us as serious & profitable use of your Exorcism and Oil, then may we enter into consolation, whether in so lawful liberty to alter or refuse unnecessary ccremonies, it were not much better to reason you have so superstitiously profaned them (besides the slender use) to leave them only to you, then after so long a farewell to give them new entertainment, specially Scripture saying nothing for them, and the ancient Fathers although they testify of the use of these, as also some others by you neglected, yet in matter of ceremony, allow freedom to every Church in every time These also are no principles of our Religion.   

PAPIST.  
Fiftly, the book alloweth the use of the Surplice in their Service and sacraments: why then may not Copes, Vestments and 
Copes. Vestments.  such like be admitted also. For no more can they show for the one, than we for the other.   

PROTESTANT.  
Multitude of needless ceremonies is always a burden, and therefore a bondage, both in the yoke of observation, and also in the tail of superstition, whereunto through blindness and carnal devotion men commonly fall. And therefore our church though it retain the Surplice, as most remote both in the original and perpetual use from your superstition, and that only for comeliness, without putting any religion in it, yet both is and aught to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatrical or stagelike vestments, which would rather disguise, than adorn the Church of Christ. And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture, which albeit of love and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary; yet straightly warneth the church not to be intaugled again in the yoke of bondage. And so there is Scripture against many, and those 
Gal. 5. 1.  before refused, more than against one, and that never out of use. And here again, I may not forget still to put you in mind, that far it is from our church to esteem the surplice, or any use thereof, as a principle, or any part of our religion.   

PAPIST.  
Sixtly, in the Collect upon Michaelmas day, they confess that the Angels defend and protect our life, how then can they deny 
Praying to Saints.  that they know our necessities and prayers? and so no reason can they allege why we may not pray to them, as well as we do to our mortal brethren.   

PROTESTANT.  
Protect is not in the Collect, but only secure and defend. For we yield only a ministery to the Angels, we hold them neither for patrons nor protectors. Which honour we give only to the Son of God the head of Angels. Neither doubt we but as far as their ministery extendeth toward us, so far they know our necessities and prayers. But infinite knowledge which is proper to the Deity, we ascribe not unto them. Neither is such limited knowledge in them any sufficient ground to lead us to pray unto them. The Angel that was sent to inform john the Evangelist in the visions revealed, notwithstanding the wonderful counsel of God whereof he was then a minister & an interpreter, yet would not suffer john to fall down to him, which is much less 
Apoc. 19 10.  than to pray to him: For to whom we pray, to him very religiously and lawfully we may fall down. Many revelations of things secret & remote were granted to the Prophets in old time, and namely to Elisaeus, yet read we not that any man did ever pray to them, though some in reverence to their ministery, & the power of God administered by them, did fall down to them. And yet how finely, or rather grossly you can assume without proof or show of proof, that we may pray to our mortal brethren? have you either precept or example for it in all the Scripture? Indeed we request and receive one from another the help of our mutual prayers; call you this praying to our mortal brethren? thus can you prove one paradox by another. These be your forcible and plain reasons for your falsely named Catholic faith.   

PAPIST.  
Seventhly, in the Geneva Psalms, annexed to the Communion 
Limbus Patrum.  book, and usually sung in their churches, they confess that Christ's soul descended to the Fathers that were in Limbo. For this article of the Creed, He descended into hell, they turn into Meetor after this manner. His soul did after this descend, Into the lower parts, To them that long in darkness were, the true light of their hearts.   

PROTESTANT.  
First you corrupt the Meeter, changing for your purpose Spirit into Soul. The meeter hath Spirit, not Soul. Secondly, what the translator meant by Spirit, and by the lower parts, it is not easy to define, unless himself had left some gloss upon his own meeter, and considering that the law of meeter, restrained him from liberty of plain speech, it were an injury to him, to wrest his words contrary to his meaning: That by lower parts he meant your Limbus, you have nothing to persuade you, but your own prejudice that carries you so to understand it. It may be, that by Spirit, he meant the power of his eternal Spirit, which in his suffering, and after his suffering wrought both in heaven & upon earth, and under the earth, even upon the bodies of the dead who were in the lower parts, and lay in darkness as generally the dead do, Hilary speaketh to like effect: Monetur terra, capax enim mortus huius esse non poterat etc. The earth 
Hilar. in Matth. Can. 33. Potestas aeternae virtutis.  was moved, for it could not contain him that was dead. The rocks were cloven for the piercing word of God, and the power of his eternal virtue, had broken into all places, how strong and well fenced soever. And the graves were opened, for the prisons of death were unlocked, And many bodies of the Saints that slept, arose, for he enlightening the darkness, and shining into, the obscurity of the lower places, for the present raising of the saints asleep, took away the spoils of death itself. What is the power of his eternal virtue but his eternal spirit. Whereby he broke into the holds of death, the darkness of death, & the obscurity of the lower parts, & carried away the spoils of death, & did enlighten with the brightness of his power, the whole region of darkness, to the comfort of all that waited for his coming. All which Hilary saith, were done not by his soul, but that nature which he calleth Penetrans Dei vertum, & potestas aeternae vertutis, that is, his Deity. And the scripture speaking of the faithful departed, although the soul & body by dissolution be in diverse regions yet speaketh of the whole person together. So saith the Apostle Peter, of David the patriake He is both dead and buried, & his sepulchre remaineth with us. And the like in many 
Acts. 2. 29.  other places wherefore the Power of Christ piercing to the dead, was a comfort to all the faithful departed. If this were his meaning, as by comparison of the former place of Hilary we may very well judge, what service I pray you, can this meeter do to your Limbus? But whatsoever his meaning were his private interpretation is no principle of our religion, neither can you be ignorant, that there be that hold some local descent of Christ, & yet be far from holding your Limbus, so might the author of that meeter likewise do. Albeit we hold that article for a principle of our religion, yet are not the sundry expositions thereof, according as several men have conceived, so many principles of our religion, you must therefore seek further for principles to serve your turn.   

PAPIST  
last, Martin Luther taught the Real preseuce & maintained 
Real presence.  it against the Zwinglians, as others of our Adversaries cannot deny, and yet doth the Apology of England penned by M. jewel call him a most excellent man, sent of God, to give light to the world. How then can it be contrary to the scripture? for if it were so, then surely could he not be a man sent of God, for the matter of the Sacrament is no small point, but such as themselves will say that a wrong belief thereof bringeth damnation.   

PROTESTANT.  
Did Martin Luther teach Popish Real presence? did he teach Transubstantiation of the bread into the body of Christ? Did he teach carnal eating of Christ's flesh? In the 
Act. 10.  Augustane confession wherein he was a chief part, thus they confess. Of the supper of the Lord, they teach that the body & blood of Christ are truly present & distributed to them that eat in the Lord's supper. We say the same, in the Articles agreed upon at Marpurg. Octob. 3. 1529. Whereunto Martin Luther first subscribed, we all believe and think, that the Sacrament of the Altar is the Sacrament of the true 
Histor, August. Confess. Spiritual eating  body and blood of jesus Christ & that the spiritual eating of this body & blood, is chief necessary for every Christian man. We say the same. In certain articles setting the state of the controversy between Luther and P●●cer, and the rest of the Cinglians (as they are called.) Although we say that the body 
Artic. 2. In aliqua mole.  of Christ is really present, yet Luther saith not that it is present locally, to wit; in any bigness, circumscriptively, but after that manner whereby Christ's person, or whole Christ, is present to his whole Church and to all creatures, Luther saith not that Christ's 
Sess. 3. cap. 1. Can. 1.  body is in the sacrament, Circumscriptiuè. But your Trent Council saith, that the body of Christ is contained in the sacrament of the Eucharist. Wherefore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself, which he could not tell how to express, nor would have any disputation about the manner, yet in as much as he was far from allowing your Popish charm, whereby you work your monstrous Transubstantiation, nor held any carnal eating, never allege Martin Luther's Real presence, to give countenance to your carnal presence.  
The Apology may well acknowledge him an excellent man, sent of God, to give light to the world, and yet not allow of his error in any thing: neither will we say that every wrong belief, even in matter of the sacrament, bringeth damnation to a godly man, otherwise holding the foundation. And lastly, Martin Luther's private opinion is no principle of our religion, as you very well know.   

PAPIST.  
These things being so, with what conscience can the Protestants justly exclaim against us, for defending a special confession of our sins, absolution of the Priest, the use of Images, and the picture of Christ crucified, the holy ceremonies of oil and exorcism, copes and holy vestments, that Angels know our prayers, and may be prayed unto, that Christ's soul descended into hell for the delivery of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion, the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament, when as all these points, either in express terms, or by necessary consequence, be gathered out of the grounds of their own Religion.   

PROTESTANT.  
These things being so that no one of the points mentioned, is any principle of our Religion, nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge, do we agree with the Papists, and the last of the seven is none of ours, with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatry, out of the principles of our religion, & in the end neither build upon any principle of our Religion, nor prove any agreement between Popish confession and absolution, and that which the Church of England useth, between the sign of the Cross, as it is used in the Church of England and Popish Images between Godfathers and Abrenunciation, and popish oil, and exorcism, as now they are between the decency of the Surples, and the superstition of Popish vestemints, between the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hell & Popish Limbus, no nor yet between Martin Luther's Real presence, and Popish carnal presence, whereas no one of these Popish points can either in express terms, or by any necessary consequence be gathered either out of any principle orany practise, or ceremony in our religion, as hath been showed.    

PAPIST.  

The Fourth reason.  
That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holy Ghost, and none can deny, but all this is verified of the Catholic Church and not of the Protestant, as a few plain arguments shall make manifest.  
First therefore, no reason in the world can the Protestants allege to prove that the scriptures be theirs, or to justify their interpretation, which we cannot bring also for us. For let them pretend conference of places, recourse to the fountains of the Greeker Hebrew, or what else they will, all that we can say for ourselves, and with a● great probability as they, and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior. On the contoary we to maintain our exposition beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers, the common practice of God's Church, the decrees of general Counsels, none of which they will stand to, and therefore in all equity and reason we passing much superior, can we then lack the true sense of scripture, that have all these to back our interpretation, specially that of God's Church in general counsels, or can the Protestants have it that be destitute of all these, as their denial of them doth evidently prove and convince.   

PROTESTANT.  
This forcible Reasoner seemeth now, as if he would come to us, and join issue with us to be tried by the Scriptures, whether the Popish Church or our Church, be the true Church. But surely if there be no more force in his reason, than plainness in his dealing this reason will be like his fellows, and so prove neither forcible nor plain: For when the reckoning of his reason is cast up, he calleth back the trial of the true Church from the scriptures, to his pretended Fathers and Counsels, and again from them to God's Church, that is (in his meaning) the Popish Church, from whence all useth to be devolved to the Pope; And so in conclusion, the question being, whether the Popish Church be the true Church, we must be tried by the Pope, who were much to blame if he would not say that his own Church is the true Church, for even thieves will say, that they are honest men. Your own Cannon law hath provided that in all matters of faith, all men yea even all Bishops must refer themselves to the Pope. Quoties, etc. As often as any matter 
Caus. 24. q. 1  of faith is debated, I think that all our brethren and fellow Bishops, aught to refer the matter to none but to Peter, that is, to the authority of his name and honour. What is the authority of Peter's name and honour but the Pope? and therefore the Gloss there setteth down in the margin. It is the Pope's office to determine a question moved about faith. And Thomas Aquinas, It belongeth to faith to stick to the Pope's determination 
Opuse. con. error. Graec.  it matters of faith, yea and in those things also that belong to good manners. If then in matter of faith or manners we cannot agree upon sense of scripture, the Pope must strike the stroke, which he will be sure shall not hurt himself: So very fitly agreeth unto you, that which Athanasius speaketh against 
Orat. 1. con. Arria●.  the Arrians: They presume to determine of faith, and being themselves guilty and obnoxious to indgment, like unto Caiaphas, they usurp the office of indging. These are the men that will prove their Church to be the true Church, by having the scriptures on their side, but they will be the interpreters of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope. Well, go too, though under the bare pretence of scriptures, you mean to bring in the Pope, yet let us see how you prove that the popish Church, which you falsely call the Catholic Church, hath the scriptures on her side, and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost.  
Your first argument is only a vain brag,. Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositions that the Protestant's can bring for theirs, as conference of places, recourse to the fountains, and what else they will, and with as great probability as they. Why then do you not use to follow that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures? Why do you 
Trid. Concil. Sess. 4. Dec. 2.  without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense only, as the holy mother Church, that is, your Popish Church, holdeth to whom, you say, it belongeth to judge of 
Trid. Concil. ibidem.  the true sense of scriptures, or whereupon all the Father's consent in one, which you know to be impossible to find? Why do you exclude the original Bibles, and bind all men in expositions to your vulgar Latin as authentical, and upon no pretence to be refused? Whatsoever you boast, your own consciences tell you that conference of places, and recourse to the fountains, will do your cause more harm then good. And here I wish the reader to observe how sly lie you insinuate, that in conference of places, recourse to the fountains, or any other help that we use, there is only probility, and therefore these means will not serve, there is no rest till you come to that which you call God's Church in general counsels, which in conclusion shall be all laid in the Pope's lap, of which pierlesse means to know the undoubted sense of scripture, it is marvel that Augustine in his books, De Doctrina Christiana, handling that point at large, forgatto speak, specially if, as you pretend, this be the only sure way, that worthy Father spent his time belike in those means that have only a probability in them, as the Phrase of scripture, the circumstances of places, comparison with other places, analogy of faith, etc. And never thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest. As you have only boasted of conference of places, and recourse to the fountains, so do you also of the consent of ancient Fathers, whereunto yourselves will not be bound: For when Cardinal Caietane (as Andradius 
Dcfens' fid. Trid. lib. 2.  reporteth) professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors, and exhorteth the readers to try his writings; not by other men's prejudice but by context of scripture, some accused him for it, as a fautor of the Lutherans, But Andradius defends him, and gives his reasons. First, because the Fathers in infinite places specially of the old testamet, leaving the literal sense, which he confesseth doth only serve to prove doctrine, run upon other senses: Hear a man may freely departed from their exposition and search for the literal sense. Secondly because the Father's very often seeking for the true sense of the scriptures, have given senses very diverse and unlike one to another: which if it be true, when will you find the consent of the Fathers, about the sense of Scripture: Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions, but is at free liberty, forsaking them all to try what he can do by God's help, and to find out another new sense unlike to the ancient Father's expositions: Be not offended with him, he doth you more service than you are ware of: For now you shall be at liberty to put upon the scripture what sense you will, though it be against the stream of the Fathers Thus you follow the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeve, when it comes to the jump, you will not be pinned. Andradius to serve your turn, can allege Augustine's judgement. Epist. 3. ad Fortunat. alleged, Dist. 9 Can. Neque. Nobis enim licebit. etc. For it shall be lawful for us, saving the honourable respect which is due to the holy Fathers, to mislike and reject something in their writings, if peradventure we find that they have otherwise judged, than the truth will bear, by Gods help understood either of others or of ourselves. Whereunto we will also add what the same Augustine saith, De unitat. Eccles. cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat, etc. Let no man say to me. Or what said Donatus to me, or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius, or any of them. for xe may not consent, no not to Catholic Bishops, if perhaps they be any where deceived, So that they have held any opinion against the Canonical scriptures. May not these testimonies of Augustine as well be alleged & held good on our part, as on yours. To conclude in this point against your appeal to Scriptures, you usually object that Heretics allege scriptures. It is true and Devils too, but corrupted, and Christ allegeth them against the Devil, and bids all men search them: But do not heretics also allege the Fathers as boldly as you that call yourselves Catholics? you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamour of Dioscorus the Euty chian heretic in the Council of Chalcedon. I have the testimony 
Concil. Chalced. Act. 1.  of the ancient Fathers, Athanasius, Gregory and Cyril in many places, I am cast out with the Fathers, I defend the Father's opinions, I transgress not in any thing, etc. If we may not build upon Scriptures, because heretics allege them much less may we upon Fathers, which heretics also allege.  
Your next mean is, The common practice of God's Church. Indeed this rule will serve your turn well. For, what mean you by God's Church? Forsooth the Popish church. So then, no interpretation of Scripture may be good, that crosseth any practice of the Popish church, so you shall be sure to keep all whole. You should in wisdom have concealed this as a mystery among yourselves. For what is it else but a conspiracy, that whatsoever the Scripture saith in words, it must at no hand be understood to be against Popish practice. By this tyranny, your Popes have gotten the start fall the world: in so much, that though he run 
Dist. ●0. Si Papa  to hell himself, and draw innumerable souls with him, yet no mortal man may presume to reprove him, because he is to judge all, and none to judge him. Fellow him to hell you that will, we will follow our Lord jesus as his word leadeth us. For him we know to be the way, the truth, and the life. Thus notably you prove, that you have the true sense of the Scriptures, and therefore are the true Church. Yours is the true sense, because it is confirmed by your own practice. And why so? Forsooth you say so. What is this else, but ask my fellow if I be a thief. First, you set up a wicked practice, than you pervert the Scriptures to maintain it, and afterward prove your interpretation of Scriptures by your practice. Your practice is good. Why? the Scripture, as you understand it, is for your practice. And why must the Scripture be so understood? because your practice so requires. First, you get both swords into your hands, than you prove it by Ecce due gladij, behold here two swords. First 
Extrau. count de maior. & obed. cap. unam sanctam.  you get above Emperors and Kings, than you prove it by Inprincipio, non in principijs. in the beginning, not in the beginnings. Such is your practice and such are your expositions.  
Your last means is, the Decrees of general Counsels. Can you bring us the Decrees of general counsels touching all Scriptures, what sense they do and aught to bear. If not, then belike there is no known sense of any other Scriptures, than such as general Counsels have expounded, the rest are buried in obscurity. But Augustine will not yield to that, who among other means to find out the true interpretation of Scriptures, advising diligently to search for both 
De Doctr. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 9  such precepts of good life and rules of faith, as are plainly set down in the Scriptures, whereof the more a man finds, the more capable he is understand the Scriptures, yields this reason of his advise. In his enim, etc. For in those words which are evidently set down in the Scriptures, are found all those things which contain faith and manners of life. Next do general Counsels all agree in one: in this also Augustine is a witness against you, writing against the Donatists, who pleaded Cyprians letters, Cyprians sentence, Cyprians council. But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture above all the writings of Bishops, yea above all general Counsels, allowing the Scriptures alone to have certainty, and undoubted truth in them, but all the writings of Bishops, yea the determinations of Counsels to be subject to the correction of other Bishops after them, and likewise of other and later Counsels, his words touching the Counsels are. Ipsa enim concilia, etc. For the very Counsels 
De baptis. count Dovat. lib. 2. cap. 3.  which are held through every Region or Province, do without all doubt give place to the authority of plenary (or general) Counsels, which are held from out of all the Christian world, and the verieplenarie (or general) Counsels, the former oftentimes are amended by the later, when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close, and that is known which did lie hid. What could have been more plainly spoken to bring into order, not only all men's writings, but even general Counsels also to be judged by the Scriptures, and not to judge over the Scriptures. Wherefore were it true that you so vainly boast of, that you had the consent of ancient Fathers, and the Decrees of general Counsels for you, yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith upon: Neither do we take it to be any disgrace unto us, that we refuse to receive our faith and understanding in the mystery of godliness from men, because we fear the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm: yea rather we account it an honour to us both before God and man, 
jerem. ●. ●.  that we together with the whole true church of God, are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, jesus Christ himself being the head corner stone: that we try every spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no: that we prove 
Eph. 2. 20. 1. joh. 4. 1. 1. Thes. 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. joh. 5. 39 Esa. 8. 20.  all things, as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commandment of Christ, and hold that which is good: that we have recourse to the law and to the testimony, and whosoever speak not according to that word, we hold them to be in darkness, and to have no light in them. From this hold you shall never drive us, and yet thanks be to God you have hitherto been beaten at your own weapon, and for the principal points of faith and religion, have been put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of ancient Fathers and Counsels, howsoever your brazen foreheads cannot blush, nor your leaden hearts relent, but still you will cry Fathers, Fathers. Counsels, Counsels.   

PAPIST.  
Secondly, to give more light and force to the former reason concerning the authority of Fathers, I say that one or two, or a few of them may be deceived, and therefore such particular opinions we admit not, and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptisation: so we make no doubt but the uniform and general consent of them living in diverse and far distant places, and at diverse times cannot but proceed from the Spirit of all truth that governeth the Church, and therefore S. Austin speaking of the Fathers that lived 
Contr. juli. lib. 2. cap. 10.  before his time, hath these excellent words: That which they found in the Church, they held fast, that which they learned, they taught; that which they received of their fathers, the same they delivered to their Children. S. Paul likewise saith, that Christ hath 
Eph. 4. 11. 14.  given Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitive church, and the Protestants cannot defy, but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians, Pelagians, Donatists, and many more such pestilent heretics.   

PROTESTANT.  
First, we have showed you before that by the judgement of Cardinal Caietane, whom Andradius defends in it, it is lawful, yea and necessary sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures, to leave the stream of the Fathers, and follow a diverse interpretation from them all, which might at no hand be admitted, if (as you presume) wherein they generally consent, they had been all guided by the spirit of truth. Andradius doth not only say so, but gives good reason for it: The literal sense of Scripture (saith he) doth only yield arguments to confirm points of religion: But the Fathers in infinite stays of the old testament, chiefly do leave the literal sense and follow the tropological or allegorical sense. In deciding of Doctrines, than which is to be done by the literal sense, what help shall we have from the consent of Fathers, who very seldom give the literal sense? Another reason he gives, that the Fathers, in giving the sense of Scriptures, have given very diverse sense, and unlike one to another. Where then shall we find that general and uniform consent that you speak of?  
Secondly, the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church, nor any member thereof, otherwise or by any other instinct, then by & from the holy Scriptures, whereby every spirit is to be tried. So far then as the Fathers either severally or jointly do accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures, we follow them without doubting, whatsoever they deliver swerving manifestly from the Scriptures, we leave; what they have probably spoken, we receive as probable; always reverencing their antiquity, gifts and labours, but not accounting their judgements the rule of our faith.  
Thirdly, you much abuse S. Augustine, in drawing his words (which yet serve not your turn) from his meaning 
Lib. 3. cap. 7.  manifestly set down in other places, Depeccat. merit. & remiss. having before alleged against the Pelagians, Cyprian & Jerome, he addeth this caveat. I have not recited these things to any such end, as if we leaned to the sentences of any disputers whatsoever they were, as to Canonical authority, but that it may appear that from the beginning unto the present time, wherein this novelty sprang up, this point of original sin hath been so constantly kept within the faith of the church, etc. Howbeit, the most clear and full authority of this opinion, is eminent in the holy Canonical books. Likewise ad Bonifac. count duas epist. Pelag. 
Lib. 4. cap. 8.  I think it pertaineth to our charge, not onclie to bring the holy Canonical Scriptures witnesses against them, which already we have sufficiently done, but also out of the books of holis men, who have handled them before us with famous commendation & great glory, to bring some documetns (or evidences) not for that the authority of any disputer is equalled by us to the Canonical books, but to admonish such, who think that these fellows say somewhat, after what sort the Catholic Bishops following the holy Scriptures, have spoken of these points before the novel and vain words of those men. In like manner using S. Augustine's words, we say to you, We think it a part of our charge, not only to bring as witnesses against you the Canonical Scriptures, which always we do in the first place, but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers, not that we mathch their authority with the Canonical Scriptures, but to let them see who think you say somewhat, the before your novel and vain boasting, the Catholic Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures, have taught as we do. Which in all the fundamental points of religion hath been again and again proved unto you. In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholic writers. Other points (saith he) there are, about which even the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholic rule, do not agree 
Cont. jul. Pelag. lib. 1.  among themselves, always saving whole the frame of faith, and in some one matter, some say better and more truly than others. But this about which we now deal, belongeth to the very foundations of faith, speaking of original sin in children. When following Augustine's example, you first allege Scripture, and then annex the consent of Fathers, as treading in the steps of the Scriptures, we will honour the Father's judgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow. This is all which Augustine did, or requires others to do, Neither do Augustine's words by you alleged serve your turn. For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of original sin spread over all men, and having received it from their Fathers, so delivered it to their posterity, Doth it follow that Augustine believed it either only or principally, because they did constantly teach it? You heard the contrary out of Augustine, before that that point is clearly and fully to be proved by the Canonical Scriptures, which even his own words in this very place do testify, They all found it before any of them delivered it? Where did they find it, but in the Scriptures? The consent of Fathers may help to understand the Scriptures, but it is no rule to understand them by, but rather the Scriptures are the rule to judge of those truths wherein the Fathers do consent.  
Lastly, Paul indeed saith, that Christ gave unto his Church pastors and teachers, that we should not be carried about with every wound of doctrine, but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may carry us about with what doctrines they list, or that we have no liberty to try their doctrine, whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son jesus Christ, This is my well-beloved son, hear him. Yet our Saviour Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures. Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man, but by jesus Christ, yet did the men of Beraea try his doctrine by the Scriptures, and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost. Will you then be above our Saviour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul, to challenge unto yourselves under the name of Pastors and Doctors, an irregular authority to lead the Church of God whither you list, and must they follow you blindfold till you fall into the pit: For while you pretend to assume this prerogative for the Fathers, as Pastors and Doctors, you mean by that sleight, cunningly to convey it to yourselves, But if he that prophocieth must prophecy according to the proportion 
Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9  of faith, if we may not receive strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel, if Timothy be charged to keep the true pattern of wholesome words, if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine, if we be charged not to believe every 
1. joh. 4. 1. 2. 3.  spirit, but to try them, because many false prophets are gone out into the world, and for trial of them have our rules in the Scripture, it will not discharge us in the day of judgement to say, that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors. It will be said unto us, that we had Moses and the Prophets, 
Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ●. 19 joh. 5. 39  that we had a most sure word of the Prophets, that we were commanded to search the Scriptures, that we had warning long ago by the Prophet jeremy, Hear not the words of the 
jerem. 23. 16. 22.  Prophets that prophecy unto you and teach you vanity: they speak the vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsel, and declared my words to my people, than they should have turned them from their evil ways.  
To conclude, we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach us, not because we have heard it of them, but because we are so taught in the Scriptures, as the men of Samaria believed not for the woman's report, but because they had heard Christ himself. 
joh. 4. 41. 42.    

PAPIST.  
They object and say, that there is no reason to prefer the Fathers before the Scriptures, and captiously they demand, whether it be better to follow the openions of men, that might err and be deceived, or the sentence of God himself that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceived. But answer is soon returned, that the question betwixt us and them, is not as they would make simple people believe, whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserve more credit, but that (which I wish all diligently to note) whether for the interpretation & true sense of the scriptures, we should not rather believe the ancient, holy and learned Fathers, than those that live in our days so far from the● Apostles age, & neither for virtue or learning comperable to the old Saints of God's Church. Let the question be propounded thus, & then none of indifferent judgement will ever make question of the matter.   

PROTESTANT.  
As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first, and then of your own putting falsely, yet neither can you so hide your own shame, nor dazzle the eyes of the godly, by casting the mist of your own devise before them. The question therefore is not as you say, Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures, we should not rather believe the ancient Fathers, than those that live in our days, neither only whether Scriptures or Fathers deserve more credit, which is but a consequence following upon that which you affirm, touching the interpretation of Scriptures, by the consent of Fathers, as an infallible rule, but this is indeed the question between us and you. Whether the Scriptures inspired of God, in all fundamental points both concerning faith and manners be not so clear and plain, that they do sufficiently interpret themselves, against which clear interpretation none other is to be received from what authority so ever it come. We affirm, you deny. And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit than the interpretation of scriptures. We have the word of God on our side, Ps. 19 7. The testimony of the Lord is true, and giveth wisdom to the simple, 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise unto salvation, joh. 5. 39 Search the Scriptures, for in them you think to have eternal life, and they testify of me. The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to try those things which Paul spoke, which had been very vainly done, if the Scriptures had not been a leer light unto them to discern of all necessary doctrines. We have the godly Father S. Augustine clear for us, in his Quaeapertè, etc. In those things which are evidently set down in the Scriptures are all those points found which contain faith & manners of life. This being the state of the question, let all godly men see whether it be not a reproach to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkness and obscurity, that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to understand it, no not in the principal matters of faith and godliness? Can not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures, speak to the understanding of the simple? you will say yes; but perhaps he would not. Our Saviour Christ giveth thanks to his Father for revealing the doctrine of the kingdom of heaven to Babes, and 
Matth. 11. 25.  hiding it from the wise. The Apostle Paul saith, If our Gospel he hide, it is hid in them that perish, in whom the God of this world 
2 Cor. 4. 3.  hath blinded their eyes, that is, of the unbelievers, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should not shine unto them. The sheep of Christ, hear the voice of Christ, and know it from the voice of strangers, and therefore will not follow strangers. How 
joh. 10. 4. 5. 27.  could the sheep of Christ, who now hear his voice only in the scriptures, know his voice from the voice of strangers, if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurely? yea let all reasonable men consider, whether it be not a sandy foundation to build our faith upon, forsaking the scriptures inspired of God. to depend upon men's lips, especially the eternal word of God, having branded all men with 
Psal. 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal. 146. 3. jer. 17. 5.  this mark, that all men are ●ers, and therefore expressly commanding not to trust in any child of man, yea cursing every man that putteth his trust in man. Augustine answering to an objection of the Donatists, pretending to be written against him by a chief man of the Catholics, besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false & counterfeit, answereth thus: Muliò minus etc. Much less doth the Catholic Church 
Cont. Crescon. lib. 3. cap. 80.  regard it, whose cause we plead against you, from which confidently resting upon so many divine testimonies, no human testimonies of any man, be they true or false, can take away that truth which it enjoyeth, forbear such things, I am but one man, the Church's cause is ●n hand among us not mine, the Churches, I say, which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no man. To conclude, make not the simple people believe that we bring into comparison the interpretations of this age, with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers, which is a mere calumnious slander of yours. We compare not men's interpretations with men's, but Gods with men's, God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spoken do interpret others not so plain, 
2. Cor. 3. 5.  That the faith of God's children should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Let the cause & question be thus propounded, and then none of the sheep of Christ will ever make question of the matter.   

PAPIST.  
Fourthly, concerning general Counsels, I say that they cannot possibly err in matters of faith; for than might we lawfully disobey them, and Christ willeth us to take him as an Heathen or a Publican, that will not obey the Church, than also should Hell gates prevail against it, contrary to our saviours promise. Then were 
Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15.  it not also the pillar and ground of truth, as S. Paul affirmeth. We therefore that embrace the definitions of general Counsels, possess the true sense of the Scriptures, and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their judgement.   

PROTESTANT.  
If Augustine said true, as he is before alleged that the former general Counsels have been corrected by the later, then surely in his judgement the former must err, and one of them without doubt did err. But what say you to the determination of the Council of Constance and Basile, which you deny not to have been general, by whom the Pope is made 
De Baptis cont. Donat. lib. 2. c. 3.  inferior to the Council? Did they err in it or not. Albertus' Pighi●s spareth not to affirm, that they decreed plainly against nature, against the manifest Scriptures, against all antiquity, and against the catholic faith of Christ. So when general Counsels determine not for your tooth, you will not stick to charge them with error, and shifts enough you have to avoid them, either they were not gathered by the Pope, or not subscribed by the Pope, or things were violently carried in them, as your Melchior Canus objecteth against 
Lib. 5. cap. vlt.  diverse Counsels, and specially against the sixth general Council in Trullo, which in many points distasteth you: And when the account is cast up, it is the Pope that cannot err, for those only determinations of Counsels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head, which is the Pope.  
But let us see your strong reasons, whereby you prove that general Counsels cannot err. First, you say, Then might we disobey them. And Christ willeth us to take him as an heathen and a publican, that will not hear the Church. Let us see your reason in form.  
If general Counsels may err, then may we disobey them:  
But we may not disobey them.— Therefore, etc.  
How prove you that we may not disobey them? Thus.  
If he that heareth not the Church be, to be taken as an heathen or publican, then may we not disobey general Counsels.  
But he that heareth not the Church, is to be taken as an heathen or publican.  
Therefore we may not disobey general Counsels.  
The Proposition of this second syllogism standing in greatest need of proof, you leave it altogether unprooved, and so after your manner, you beg that always which is in question: For in the words of Scripture by you abused, you should have proved, First, that the word, Hear, is to be extended to all matters generally; Secondly, that by (the Church) are meant only general Counsels. Thirdly, that the Church is to be heard howsoever it judge, which points except you prove, the consequence inferred in the Proposition will not follow.  
First therefore, the matter here referred to the Church, is not decision of doctrines, but censure of scandals, as Chrysostome upon the place observeth. Now will it follow, He that obeyeth not the Church's censure in matter of scandal given to his brother, is to be taken as an heathen or publican. Therefore Counsels may not be disobeyed, whatsoever they teach in matter of faith and doctrine? Secondly, must we expect a general Council for redress of every scandal committed against a brother, by him that will not be brought to amendment by more private admonition? Did not the Church of Corinth censure the scandal of the incestuous person? Had not the Church of 
1. Cor. 5. 2. Thes 3. 14.  Thessalonica power to censure the inordinate walkers? And hath not every particular Church power to censure all scandals within themselves? By your reason than we may not disobey particular Churches in their derisions of Doctrine, neither can they err any more than general Counsels, which yourselves will not yield, and the errors of the Church of Corinth do gain say. To show the insufficiency of your proof, I will set by it this argument.  
He that will not hear a particular Church censuring in matter of scandal, is to be held as an heathen or publican.  
Therefore we may not disobey a particular Church in matter of doctrine.  
The first part you cannot deny, the consequent I know you will not yield: such is the force of your forcible reason.  
Thirdly, doth not the place expressly limit the censure of the Church, whereunto obedience must be given. First, it is supposed in the text, that a brother hath trespassed against a brother. Secondly, that it cannot be denied but he hath done so. Thirdly, that his fault is told him as alone, and with two or three witnesses, so by the Church. Lastly, that the party offending convict of the offence, and justly censured by the Church, obeyeth not. But if either the brother had not trespassed, or had not been convicted, and so the Church had unjustly censured him, or if the Church had corruptly imposed any thing upon him, either to be believed, or to be done: was he than not hearing to be taken as a publican or an heathen? Our Saviour Christ saith not so. For this had been to give tyrannical power over men's souls and consciences into the hands of the Church, which our Saviour never did. Now if we should grant you that hearing of the Church in this place, might be extended to matter of Doctrine, if by like proportion you suppose, that the determination of the Church is agreeable to the Scriptures, and that the Church by the Scriptures approveth their determination to the consciences of the faithful, as we then grant you that we may not disobey so this will help your cause nothing at all, who will not submit the sentence of general Counsels to be tried by the Scriptures, but maketh it superior to the Scriptures, and consequently Lord over men's consciences. which as the Apostle scrbiddeth to 
1. Pet. 5. 1.  the elders of the Church in all several Churches, so doth he also to the elders assembled in a generall Council. For in the Council of the Apostles at jerusalem by the mouth of james, both Peter and the rest, lay for the foundation of their 
Act. 15. 15.  sentence, the words of Scripture; To thou agree the words of the Prophets.  
Your second reason is, Then should also ●ell gates prevail against it, contrary to our saviours promise. Let us see this reason also in form.  

Hell gates prevail against every one that may err,  
But hell gates prevail not against the Church:  
Therefore the Church may not err.   
First, you conclude not the question. Which is not whether the Church may err, but whether general Counsels may err. But neither are general Counsels so large as the only visible Church, being but special members assembled out of the whole, whose error may not be imputed, no not to the whole visible Church, neither is the visible Church the whole Church, no not the whole militant Church; and therefore although the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church, yet they may prevail against general Counsels.  
Secondly, the Church may err, and yet hell gates not prevail against it. For the Proposition of the former syllogism containing your reason, is not true. The gates of hell do not prevail against every one that erreth. Peter erred both in matter of fact, and in matter of faith. His errors in matter of fact are known to be many, and not denied by you. His error in matter of faith, was in judging it unlawful to eat of things common: yet did not the gates of hell 
Act. 10, 14.  prevail against him.  
Thirdly, the gates of hell not prevailing against the whole militant Church, may yet prevail against the visible parts of this Church, and in some age or ages; It followeth not therefore, that if the gates of hell prevail against the visible Churches of some age that therefore they do prevail against the whole militant Church. Where be the famous Churches of Achain, of Galatia, of Macedonia? nay, what a handful is the remnant of the Church now in a corner of Europe, principally known by the name of the Church, to the large circuit of the Church, both in the Apostles time, and after spread over the whole world? Will you say, the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church, because they have prevailed against some Churches, so many, so famous in some age or ages. The Church of Christ may be more and less ecumenical, and yet the Church of Christ still, against which the gates of hell, neither have, nor ever shall prevail: and yet may prevail against the Churches of Achaia, Galatia, Macedonia, and many others: yea, against the once famous Church of Rome, as they have done, so that the faithful city may become an harlot. Wherefore begin 
Isa. 1. 21.  once to be ashamed of this sophistry.  
The gates of hell cannot prenaile against the Church of Christ.  
Therefore not against a general Council, which is but some of the many churches of one time, and is far from the largeness of the whole church of Christ.  
Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth, as S. Paul affirmeth. Let us also bring this reason into form.  

The pillar and ground of truth cannot err.  
The Church is the pillar and ground of truth:  
Therefore the Church cannot err.   
First, what is this to general Counsels, which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth, but at the best only some part of it? that church is the house of the living God, which extends itself more largely both in regard of persons and times, then to the number assembled in some general counsels, in some times of the church. Whereby it cometh to pass, that (as before hath been noted out of Augustine) general counsels have corrected provincial, and the later general counsels have corrected the former. Wherefore some general council or counsels may err, and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth.  
Secondly, the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth, (as hath been showed) because the Oracles of God are committed unto it, which the church keepeth faithfully to the world's end. By which as by an undoubted mark the true Church is known from the false: For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures, neither doth uphold and bear up the truth by the preaching of the Gospel, as is manifestly seen in the Apostatical church of Rome. Contrariwise the true church conserveth the records of God's truth, and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture, for the gathering of the Saints, and the edifying 
Ephes. 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7.  of itself. Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserve knowledge, and at whose mouth they should inquire the law, may sometimes fail in the knowledge and showing of the law: So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions, and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth, to wit, of that truth which is necessary to salvation, in the true knowledge and custody whereof the true Church shall never deceive nor be deceived. The Apostles and Disciples of our Saviour Christ at the time of his ascension, were the only true visible church of Christ, who undoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 
1. Tim. 6. 3.  truth, holding fast the foundation which is jesus Christ, and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godliness, 
Act. 1. 6  yet did they err in the matter of restoring the kingdom to Israel.  
Thirdly, as before hath been showed out of Chrysostome, The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church. For as Augustine 
August. 〈◊〉 166.  faith to the Donatists, In the Scriptures we have learned Christ, In the Scriptures we have learned the Church. Understanding therefore pillar, ground or firmament, for the strength, stay or foundation, the truth is the strength, stay and foundation of the church, which is built upon the foundation of the 
Eph. 2. 20.  Apostles and Prophets, jesus Christ himself being the head corner stone. But the church is the pillar and ground of truth, as 
Galath. 29.  Cephas, lamet and john were counted to be pillars, because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly upheld. Fundatores Ecclesiae erant & sustentatores, They were founders of the Church and upholders, as Haym● noteth out of Augustine. So the Church layeth the foundation of truth, and beareth up the truth by confessing and preaching. Inqua solu (as Primasius noteth) nunc veritas stat firmata, & que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis, that is, In which alone the truth now standeth grounded, and which alone beareth up the whole building of truth. Not that the church is as Lady over the truth, but as an handmaid to the truth. Therefore as Peter being a pillar, was yet subject to error, so the church is not free from all error, although it be the pillar and ground of truth. The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth, which the true church teacheth, according to the Scriptures have the true sense of the Scriptures, and not the Papists that build upon variable and uncertain definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and clear doctrine of the Scriptures.   

PAPIST  
Fiftly, S. Peter saith that no prophecy of Scripture is made by 
2. Pet. 1. 20.  private interpretation. Private interpretation 〈◊〉 have none, seeing we interpret them according to that sense which consent of antiquity and the authority of God's Church delivereth: and the Protestants have none but private, seeing their doctrine is that every one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures what others do teach, and so to admit or reject it, as they find it agreeable or not, to the word of God: which if it be not private interpretation, there can be none sound in the world. For what can be more private, then for every private unlearned artificer to make himself judge over all, and to sentence this man's doctrine as agreeable to God's word, and to reject the common opinion of many more. yea though of ancient Fathers and general Counsels, as contrary to sacred Scripture, and yet this is common amongst our adversaries, as daily experience informeth us.   

PROTESTANT.  
Private interpretation in this place of Peter, is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit, as in the words plainly appeareth, and not one man's interpretations to many men's, as you pretend. For all men's interpretation if it be human, coming of their own sense, and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their own, which you call private. The gift of interpretation as other spiritual gists, is of the spirit 
1. Cor 13. 10. Luke. 24. 45.  of God, who openeth the hearts of men to understand the scriptures. As he opened the heart of Lydia: For otherwise as the 
Act. 1●. 14.  veil remaining upon the hearts of the jews, they could not see into the end of the law, but when the v●●le w is taken away 
2. Cor. 3. 16.  from their hearts, then by a right understanding of the Scriptures they were converted unto Christ: So while the vail of carnal wisdom, which is foolishness with God, is 
1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24.  upon the hearts of men, they cannot discern the wisdom of God revealed in the Scriptures. For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned, and only the 
joh. 6. 45.  spiritual man discerneth all things. By this spirit are all that believe taught of God, and every man that hath heard and learned of the Father, cometh unto Christ. This spirit by the 
Act. 8.  ministery of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay. Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could give him the spirit of discerning. Neque enim (saith Augustine) 
De Trinit. lib. 15. cap. 26.  aliquis discipuloruns e●as dedit spiritum Sanctum, For none of his disciples gave the holy Ghost. Neither can all the Doctors, Fathers or Counsels in the world beget the true understanding of the Scripture in any one man's heart. It is the work of the heavenly teacher, that is, the holy Ghost, which Augustine ingeniously confesseth, Sonus verborum nostrorum 
Tract. 3. in joan. epist.  aures percutit, magister intus est. etc. The sound of our words beateth the ears, the minister is within. Think not that any man doth learn any thing of man. We may admonish by the noise of our voice, if there be not to teach within, our noise is in vain Will you know it indeed brethren? Have ye not all heard this Sermon. How many will departed hence untaught? For my part I have spoken to all, but to whom that anointing speaketh not within, whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within, they depart untaught. Teachings that are outward, are some helps and admonitions. He hath his chair in heaven that teacheth the hearts. Thus far Augustine. Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures; for even in hearing and reading of the scriptures, the spirit createth in our hearts the true understanding of them, as our Saviour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples, withal opened their hearts to understand them, and on the Sabbaoth day opening 
Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45.  the prophecy of Esay, withal he opened their hearts, that they wondered at the gracious words that proceeded out of his mouth. And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch 
Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8.  was reading, and preached to him jesus, when the holy Ghost opened his heart to believe, and when Paul spoke lydia's heart was opened. This spirit which is the spirit of 
Act. 16. 14.  wisdom, is also the spirit of adoption, and therefore as all the sons of God to whom appertaineth the adoption, have received also the spirit of adoption, and he that hath not the spirit of Christ, is none of his, so all that are wise unto 
Rom. 8. 9 joh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18.  salvation, all that do know, that jesus is that Christ, the Son of God, and by believing have life through his name, have likewise received the spirit of wisdom and revelation to enlighten the eyes of their understanding; to know the things that are given them of God, and what that hope is of his calling, and what the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints.  
Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would bear men in hand: I have before showed you the confession of Augustine. In those words which are evidently set down in 
De doctr. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 9 Epist. 3.  the Scriptures, are found all those things which contain faith and manners of life. And in another place. Those things which the Scripture evidently containeth, as a familiar friend it speaketh, without obscurity to the heart of learned and unlearned: The spirit of God not only providing the Scriptures, but also that the reader should meet with the true meaning of them 
De doctr. Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27.  as Augustine saith.  
Yea but say you, when every one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture, what other do teach, and so admit or reject it, as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God, if this be not a private interpretation there can be none found in the world. Fear you not thus to open your mouth against heaven, and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures, a private interpretation? When our Saviour referred the jews to seek witness of himself, by searching the scriptures, did he refer them to a private interpretation? when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures, whether those things that Paul spoke were so or no. Did they follow a private interpretation? By this which you call private interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures, that for the illustrating of the more obscure 
De doctr. Chr. lib 2. cap. 97.  speeches, examples be taken from the more manifest, and some testimonies of certain senses take away the doubt of the uncertain. In obscure places, where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture, Augustine admits to give reason to the sense we bring, but saith he. This custom is dangerous, it is more safe to walk by the divine scriptures 
De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 27.  which standing in translate words when we will search, either let such sense be made of it as hath no controversy, or of it have let it be determined by the same Scripture, wheresoever the witnesses thereof can be found and applied. Neither is this to make every private unlearned artificer judge over the Scriptures, but to set all both learned and unlearned to school to the Scriptures, from whence as Augustine saith before alleged we have learned to know Christ, and to know the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides, we must learn to know the scriptures (for the sense of the scripture is the scripture) yea and Christ himself, by the tradition of the Church, and receive such a sense of scriptures, and such a Christ as Fathers and Counsels by their authority shall deliver unto us, not having left unto us any power to try the spirits by the Scripture, the infallible touchstone of all spirits, by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to 
john. 5. 39 Galat. ●. 8.  be tried. If this be not a private interpretation, there can be none found in the world.   

PAPIST.  
To assure us this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to clean unto the authority of God's Church. Therefore S. Austen saith, I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of God's church did not moon me: And the Protestants 
Contr. epist. fund. cap. 4.  cannot in this question ever give content either to themselves or other if they take any other course: For where do they find in the whole Bible, that S. james his Epistle (for example) is Canonical scripture? is it not well known that Luther did reject it? But feign would I know, how they can according to their principle, which is to believe nothing but scripture, prove this point against Luther out of the scripture, most certain it is they cannot, and that which we say of S. james his Epistle, may be said of any other part of the Bible, if one be disposed to deny it: Seeing than that there is equal danger of salvation in expounding the scriptures contrary to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost, as there is in refusing that for Scripture which was ind●ed by the holy Ghost, what man of reason can deny, but that if the church doth tell which is the scripture and which is not, that the same Church is likewise to tell us which is the true sense of the scripture, & which is not. We therefore that interpret them, as the church teach us, have the scriptures indeed, and the Protestants that do otherwise, be destitute of the true sense of the word of God.   

PROTESTANT.  
The sum of this Argument is this:  
Whatsoever means we have to know the canonical Scriptures, the same we have to know the true sense of them: For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures, and refusing them.  
But there is no means to know the Canonical Scriptures, but by ●●e authority of the Church: For no man can prove against Luther, that Saint james his Epistle is Canonical, but by the authority of the Church, and Austen Jaith, I would not believe. etc.  
Therefore there is no means to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the authority of the Church.  
First then as before hath been noted, Augustine was much verseene in his books De Doctr. Christ. among so many means as he theresets down to search & find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church, which you will now have to be the only means.  
Secondly, in a sense it is true that the authority of God's Church, is a means to know both the Canonical Scripture, and the true sense thereof. The Church of God doth neither give being or authority to the Scriptures, nor sense to the Scriptures, but being taught of God in both, gives witness of both, to her own children and even to those that are without, and by the ministry and means of her testimony, they to whom the Scriptures were before unknown, begin to receive them, and they that have received them attain to the sense of them, by that gift of interpretation which God hath given to his Church, yet doth not God's true Church set up her authority in men's consciences to bind them without a better Teacher, and of greater authority to receive any thing at her hands for Scripture, or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without trial. As Philip having testified to Nathanael. We have found him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts, jesus the son of joseph, when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth, doth not enforce his own authority, but bids him come & see, so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures & of the true sense of them, bids all men come and see, 
joh. 1. 46.  that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit, to know the majesty and authority of them, & after they have believed the scriptures to be the undoubtted word of God, in them to search the true meaning of them, as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleged, and in the very book by you quoted, for showing how the Manichees, teach & how the Church teacheth, thus he writeth, Whatthinke you we must judge or do, but to forsake them who invite 
Contr. epist. Fun. cap. 14.  us, to know things certain, and after command us to believe things uncertain, (the very right description of the Popish church) And follow them who invite us first to believe that which yet we are not able to look into, that when we are waxen stronger in faith, we may attain to understand that which we believe, now not men but God inwardly strengthening and enlightening our mind. Whereby that former sentence of Augustine, so commonly alleged by the Papists, receives plain interpretation: Ego non crederem etc. Every word almost in the sentence, having a special signification to show that he only acknowledgeth the church's testimony in the beginning of his conversion, to have been the means to move him to think well of the scriptures. Ego. that is, I being a Manichee, having not yet searched the scriptures, nor having known the majesty of the Gospel. Non creder●m, that is, would not have given any regard unto nor have been tractable to learn, as the whole book De utilit ate credends ad Honour a●um doth show, & namely cap. 9 For (faith he) true religion, unless those things 
De util. creden. ad ionorat. cap. 15.  be believed, which if a man behave himself well, and be worthy, he may afterwards attain to & understand, without some great command of authority, can by no means be well entered into, For (as he saith in the same book) between man's foolishness and the most sincere truth of God. Man's wisdom is set as a middle thing, for a wise man is to follow God, a foolissh man is to follow a wise man: yet as Augustine there sayeth, not to put his trust in men, but only in the son of God, the sincere eternal & unchangeable wisdom of God, whereunto only we ought to stick, who for our sakes, namely to become our Teacher, vouch safed to take upon him man's nature. 
Contr. Epist. Fundam. cap. 5.  This most sincere wisdom, Contr. Epist. Fundam. cap. 4. he settech in the first rank (though having to deal with a Manichee, he saith he will omit to speak of it) as that which holds him without any doubting in the bosom of the Catholic church, whereas in all his other motives he only meaneth to show that even only in them he hath better hold than the Manichees have for their heresy. For otherwise he preferreth the undoubted proofs of scripture, before the authority of the catholic Church. If peradventure (saith he) you can find any thing in the Gospel, very plain for Manichees Apostleship, you shall weaken unto me the authority of the Catholics, and before; if so manifest truth be showed, that 
Cap. 4.  it cannot come into doubt, it ought to be preferred before all those things, by which I am held in the Catholic church. 3. catholic Ecclesiae, means he the Catholic church of all times, or rather the Catholic church of the first times, who having received the Scriptures by Apostolical testimony delivered them to their posterity? At whose hand Augustine received them, not upon their only testimony, but upon the records of the Catholic Church of the first times, which the church in his time had to show for the Canonical and undoubted Scriptures. What his meaning is in this behalf, let Augustine himself declare.  
Believe (saith he) this book to be Matthewes, which from that time wherein Matthew himself lived in the flesh, by course of 
Contr. Faustr● Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9  time not interrupted the Church, through certain succession of continuance hath brought along unto this time. And against the same heretic he useth a very apt comparison to this purpose: there have many books come forth under the name and title of secular authors, which were never theirs, as for example many books under the name of Hypocrates that were not his. How are these descried? Therefore are they refused (saith Augustine) because either they did not agree to those writings, which were manifestly known to be theirs, or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote, nor were commended to posterity by themselves, or those that were most familiar with them: and specially of Hypocrates his bastard books, when being compared to those which were truly known to be Hypocrates his own, they were judged to be unlike, and because they were not known to be truly his at the same time, when the rest of his writings came to be known. So the ecclesiastical writings of men are no otherwise known whose they were, but because in the times wherein every one wrote them, he acquainted and published them to whom he could, and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another, and farther confirmed, they 
cap. 9  came to their posterity even to our times. In like manner he concludes of the holy Scriptures, If you will follow the authority of the Scriptures, which ought to be preferred before all other, follow that which from the times of the very presence of Christ, by the dispensations of the Apostles, having been kept throughout the whole world, came commended and famously known to our times. By all which it is evident, that Augustine meant not to make the Catholic Church of his time the author of his belief, touching the Canonical Scriptures, but the Catholic Church of the first times, who came nearest to the writing and delivery of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles, and the Apostolic men that wrote them, for whose testimony and commendations sake, the Church succeeding is also believed. What is this to the supposed Catholic church of our days, by which you mean the Pope's kingdom, when even the true Catholic church of later times neither hath nor challengeth to herself any credit in this matter, but as she can porduce the testimony of the Catholic church in the first times?  
Lastly, Augustine there saith, Nisi me commoveret Ecclesiae authoritas. He only ascribeth to the Church's authority, that it is a motive, and the first motive to induce an unbelieving man, to think well of the Scriptures, but he resteth not in this motive. Having thus begun, he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to find by what spirit they were written, and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit, as the undoubted word of God to embrace them, not man now, but God himself inwardly strengthening and enlightening his ●inde, as he is before alleged. What makes all this for the authority of the Popish, falsely called Catholic church, to lead men's consciences into captivity by her interpretations or determinations, either of the Canonical Scriptures, or of their sense. Nay, what makes this for such authority as under the Church's title you would claim, to deprive Christians of any better assurance, either touching the Scriptures or their sense, than it received from the authority of the Church, that is of men no less subject to errourthen themselves?  
But you would feign know, how the Protestants that believe nothing but Scripture, can by Scripture prove against Luther, that S. james his Epistle is Canonical Scripture? Even in like manner as we can prove S. Paul's Epistles, and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonical Scripture. For think you that that Spirit, by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures, doth not still breath in the same Scriptures, by means of which Spirit, the word of God 
Hebr. 4. 12.  liveth, and is mighty in operation, and by that special virtue differeth from human writings, yea even those that are written of Scripture matters? Either then you must divide the Spirit from the Scriptures, when God's children read it (which you cannot do without dishonour to the Scriptures) or you must needs confess, that out of the Scriptures inspired of God, God's children do sufficiently prove unto their own consciences, and against all gainsayers, that the whole Scripture and every part thereof is Canonical, that 
1 Cor. 2. 4.  is a sovereign rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and manners. For, as the Apostles preaching, so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God, hath in itself plain evidence of the spirit and of power, that our faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Thus out of S. Paul's Epistles, we can prove S. Paul's Epistles to be Canonical. And out of S. james his Epistle, we can prove S. james his Epistle to be Canonical, and generally the whole Scripture proves itself to be Canonical, and from itself the Church receiveth receiveth witness of itself. If you be ignorant of this, it is because you have not received of the anointing of that Spirit, by whom the Scriptures were inspired. And now cease any longer to disport yourself with this carnal question, out of what Scripture the Protestants can prove S. james his Epistle to be Canonical. The sheep of Christ do know the shepherds voice, and they know it not by report, but by itself they discern it. To conclude, because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrary to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost, albeit not equal danger, as in refusing the holy Scripture indicted by the holy Ghost, as Augustine insinuateth, Confess. lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater, that is the approbation of Canonical Scriptures, we dare not remit all to men's voices, though they be the Church; so in that wherein errors is less dangerous yet dangerous too, that is, in determining the true sense of Scriptures, we dare not build our faith upon the wisdom of men, because as hath been alleged out of Augustne. we have learned of our Redeemer, in ●●llo ho●ike spem povere, to put no trust in any man, but only in the plain evidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures; which so long as we do with faithful prayer, and humble submission to his teaching, according to the promise, they shall be all taught of God, wear assured to be led into all truth 
Isa. 54. 13. john. 6. 45.  necessary to salvation, which security the Papists that rest in men's authority can never have.   

PAPIST.  
seven, wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example, to make the people believe that images are unlawful, in Tyndal's translation, where Idols be forbidden, usually the word Image is placed in steed thereof, and therefore in S. john, we find it thus translated, Babes keep yourselves from images. 
1. joh. ● 21.  And for trial, we will, appeal to their later Bibles, printed by Christopher Barker, for there we read thus, Little children keep yourselves from Idols.   

PROTESTANT.  
Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long ago, by Doctor Fulke against Martin, and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds, both of worthy and blessed memory first it is so plain, that the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, doth in the propriety of the word signify an image that Gregory Martin neither can nor doth deny it.  
Secondly, as use hath restrained the name Idol from the general signification, to note only wicked images; and such as are abused to God's dishonour, so is it well known that both in vulgar and popular use, and also in the general understanding of all godly Christians, that dote not upon Popish idols, the name ! mage either to represent God, or to worship God or Saint withal, is become as odious as the name Idol, and nothing diverse from it. And because the notorious idols of Popery are in their language called images, and holy images (being indeed most accursed idols) not without good cause did that religious Translator turn the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into jusages in English, that English men might beware of Popish images, which are Idols. Neither is the alteration of the term in a later translation; any correction of the former, but a variation only, intending still still the term Idols to extend itself to Popish images as well as heathenish, as you Papists and all men do well enough perceive and know.  
Thirdly, your own vulgar translation hath, Filioli custodite vos a simulachris, which what is it else in English, but Babes keeps yourselves from images? For howsoever you shift about this word also, and would have the true notation of it given by Lactantius, that it hath his name, à similitudine, that 
De Orig. erro. lib. 2. cap. 2.  is, of likeness, and is all one with imago, animage (for so Lactantius manifestly confounds it) and will needs have it come only, à simulando, of counterfeiting or feming, yet this poor shift will do you little good. For even this counterfeiting is not without likeness. whether the matter counterfeited have a true being or a false. The strange picture whereof Horace speaketh, De arte poetica, made with a woman's head, a horse neck, with other parts borrowed of other creatures, and lastly a fish's tail, though it be no likeness of any thing that hath a being. yet is it a likeness, if of no more than of the Painter's fancy. Simulachrum therefore when you have said all you can, is an image, and so much Doctor Fulke hath proved unto you out of sundry Authors. As lawfully 
Against Gre● Mattia. cap. 1. sect. 5.  then might Tyndall translate from images as your vulgar à simulachris.  
Lastly, your vulgar translation hath in the second commandment, 
Exod. 20.  Similitudinem, Lakenesse of any ●●g. which in the Hebrew is Temunah. Arias Montanus translateth the same word Imagmem, an image, Deut. 4. 6. and your own vulgar in the same place, Non vidistus aliquam similitudinem in die qua locutus est vobi● Dominus in Oreb de medio ignis, ●● forte decepts faciatis vobis sculptam similitudinem, ●ut imaginem omnium jumentorum, You saw no likeness in the day wherein the Lord spoke unto you out of Oreb, out of the midst of the fire, lest you being deceived make unto you any graven likeness, or any ●mage of any beast, etc. And August, Quest, super Exod translateth the second Commandment thus. Non facies tibi idôlum, neque ullum simulachrum quaecunque in coelo sunt sursum, wherehy it appeareth first that si●ulachrum & imago, differ not, and therefore the vulgar translating simulachris, we may translate images. Secondly, that God in the second commandment commandeth to make no image, and therefore again the Apostles dehortation being deduced out of the second Commandment, Tyndall translated well and according to the ●Apostles meaning, Babes or little children keep yourselves from Images. Now then to what straits you are driven, that you have no other● way to maintain your Imagery and worshipping of Images, then by such nice distinctions of imago and simulachrum; of Imago and idôlum, between which the Scriptures put no difference, if your authentical translation and Arias Montanus do rightly translate, I appeal to your own consciences, if you have not sold them to maintain idolatry, as jeroboam did himself, and to the indifferent judgement of all that are not partial.   

PAPIST.  
Likewise to bring the Shrines of Martyrs and holy relics in contempt, and to make simple people believe, that it is an heathenish custom, they translate thus in the said old Bible, Demetrius a silver smith that made silver shrines for Diana, Malicious corruption, for in the text there is no mention of silver shrines, but of silver temples, and to the foresaid later Bible truly translateth. See how they can accommodate their Bibles to the time: For when Images and shrines were yet standing in England, or fresh in memory, they fitted their translations accordingly.   

PROTESTANT.  
To this piddling quarrel little answer needs. The word in that place, is rather to be understood of some coin, wherein the Image and temple of Diana was stamped, then of any Temple or Shrine, yet did not the old Translator without authority so translate: For therein he followed 
Homil. 42. in Act.  Chrisostome, who conceiveth that they may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Little Shrines. But there is no need to enforce this place against your idolatry to Shrines of Saints and Relics, the Scriptures do largely afford reasons & proofs against it, your service you do unto them, your annexing of power and grace unto them, your trust you put in them, are so many, & so gross idolatries, that without straining any one place of Scripture the first and second commandment do abundantly condemn them.   

PAPIST.  
As in these points the old translation is corrupt and the later better, so in other things the later is false and the former true, for example, thus they translate: Thou wilt not leave my soul in 
Act. 2. 27.  grave. Malicious corruption against the descending of Christ's soul into hell: For it is contrarte to the original text and the former translation of Tyndal.   

PROTESTANT.  
This cavilling objection hath been often made by you Papists, and often answered as all men know: and therefore it may seem a vain labour to travail in satisfying them that will accept no satisfaction. Howbeit for their sakes that peradventure have seen your objection but have taken no pains to understand the answer, I will briefly set it down if at least they will vouchsafe to hear it.  
First, therefore you cannot be ignorant that the Hebrew word Sheol doth in that tongue properly signify the grave, as the learned interpreters of that tongue do observe, and Doctor Fulke against Gregory Martin hath maintained. Pagnine gives that interpretation, first as the natural propriety of the word, and accordingly translateth, Gen. 42. 38 Et descendere facutis meam canitiem cum dolore ad sepulchrum, You will bring my grey head with sorrow to the grave. And in this very place. Psalm. 16. 10. Quoniam non derelingues ani●ans meam in sepulchre. Thou wilt not leave my soul in grave. And so likewise in other places as Gen. 37. 35. job. 17. 13. 1 King. 2. 9 etc. In all which places Arias Montanus altereth not his translation, and your Lovanian Censors have approved it. Is it malicious corruption in our translations and not in yours?  
Secondly, by the interpretation of Peter and Paul. Act. 2. 31 & 33. & 13. 35. 36. 37. The Prophet here spoke of Christ's resurrection, but as touching his return from hell, neither in this place do they so interpret David's words, nor in any other place rightly understood, make any mention of it. If the place then be to be understood, of the resurrection, and that in both causes, Thou wilt not leave my soul in grave, nor suffer thine holy one to see corruption. As Peter. Act. 2. 31. expressly saith, the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must needs be understood of the place from whence he was raised which was the grave: Neither make it any thing against this sense, that his soul was not in the grave: For first the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here carrieth the same sense that Nepheth doth in the Psalm. It is so clear that that word must be taken for a dead body oftentimes, as Beza hath observed, that as Doctor Fulke against Martin hath observed of five places, by Beza alleged, Leuit. 19 28. &. 21. 1. & 11. Num. 5. 2. &. 9 10. where the word Nepheth, must needs have that sense, your own vulgar hath so translated it in all these places but the last, and therefore this place being spoken of the resurrection, it may likewise be so understood here, beside doth not the scripture speaking of David say: His sepulchre remaineth with us unto this day? Is not David's soul a part of David? yet was not David's soul in his sepulchre, nor died, nor was buried, see you not then, that the word Soul before, is put for the manhood as in the article of our faith we say, Christ died and was buried, not that the whole manhood was buried, but the one part which is yet denoninated of the whole. And while the body lieth and corrupteth in the grave, the soul in that behalf suffereth a privation, although it be not shut up with the body in the grave, and thus David's soul was and is left in the grave in regard of the body which there remaineth in corruption. Christ's soul in like sense was there while the body lay in the grave, but was not left in the grave, because the body remained not there to see corruption.  
And indeed whosoever doth rightly and religiously observe the opposition between Christ and David, in these words, shall soon perceive what is here meant both by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. For of Christ, the Psalmist saith, Thou shalt not leave my soul in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Of David, Peter saith, He died and is buried, & his Sepulchre remaineth with unto this day: But his soul remaineth neither in hell, nor properly in the grave; in these things therefore there is no opposition. But this place must be so understood that there may be opposition. That which is of David's part is plain, he is to this day left buried, and in his grave, that which is of Christ must be contrary, that his body was not left in the grave, unless the sense of this place, and these words be so taken, the Apostle doth not sufficiently prove, that David spoke of the resurrection of Christ. He rather spoke in your understanding of the delivery of Christ's soul out of hell, which might have been (if it had pleased him in soul to descend thither) albeit his body had still remained, and seen corruption in the grave. Thus to maintain your erroneous fancies, you stick not to overthrow a special argument, which the holy Ghost useth against the jews, to prove the resurrection of Christ out of that Psalm.  
Thirdly, because you say it is a malicious corruption against the descending of Christ into hell, what if it were translated, thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, would it prove that Christ's soul was in hell? nothing less. Augustine upon that place of the Psalm, Quoniam non derelinques animam meam in inferno, maketh this gloss, Because thou wilt neither give my soul to be possessed of hell, and upon the next words, Neque dabis Sanctum tuum videre corruptionem, neque sanctificarum corpus per quod & alij sanctificandi sunt, corrumpi patieris. Thou wilt not (saith Augustine) deliver my soul to be possessed of hell, nor suffer my sanctified body, by which others also must be sanctified, to be corrupted: Not to be left in hell, and not to be delivered unto hell, with him is all one. It is true therefore, that God left not his soul in hell, because he never delivered his soul to hell and so he never came there in soul. The same Father writing upon the 85. Psalm, upon those words, Eruisti animam meam ex inferno inferiori, conferreth them with the words of this Psalm now in question, Quoniam no● der●liquisti animam meam in inferno, and giveth this interpretation of both, He said, that God delivered his soul from the lower hell, because he delivered him from such sins, by which be might be brought to the torments of the lower hell. As (saith he) a man may say to a Physician, who perceiving that he was like to fall into some disease, prescribed him a diet for his health, thou hast delivered me from a disease, not wherein he was, but wherein he was like to be; and to him that defends him, when he is like to be carried to prison, or in danger to be hanged thou hast delivered my soul from the prison or from the gallows, wherein the party never was. So Christ taking our sins upon him whereunto hell fire was due, and conflicting with the wrath of God, being supported by his Father, that he should not be delivered ever into the power of hell, confidently rejoiceth in God saying, I have set the Lord always before me, he is at my right hand, therefore I shall not be moved, wherefore my heart is glad, my tongue rejoiceth, my flesh also shall rest in hope, For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (if you will needs so translate) neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption, not meaning that he had been in hell, or was to be in hell, but giving thanks to God who heard his prayer, and preserved him from hell, as the Apostle saith, Heb. 5. 7. He was heard in that which he feared. So you see it may be translated as you would have it, and yet you get nothing by it.  
Lastly, upon the 85. Psalm aforesaid, Augustine maketh two parts of infernum or hell, the one upon earth, the other in the grave or region of death whither the dead depart, from whence saith he God would deliver our souls by sending his son thither. Because of these two hells (saith he) the son of God was sent to deliver us every way, Ad hoc infernum missus est nascendo, ad illud moriendo. To the hell on earth he was sent when he was borne, to the hell in the grave, or in death when he died: to the which hell, saith Augustine, Christ came that we might no● remain in hell. To the like effect he writeth upon the 88 Psalm. If Christ went into no other hell than the faithful go, he never went into hell of the damned, where the faithful never come. And therefore to conclude, Augustine though he translate in inferno and ex inferno, meaneth only the grave, or at the largest, the Region of death whither the dead go. Say not then that we translate grave against Christ's descending into hell: we may with Augustine translate hell, and yet with him not mean the hell of the damned, but the common hell of the dead.   

PAPIST.  
Likewise to avoid the descending of Christ into hell for the delivery of the old Fathers, they translate thus, Christ hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, and was put to death concerning the flesh, but was quickened 
1. Pet. 3. 18.  by the spirit, by which also he went and preached to the spirits that are in prison. In which short sentence be three corruptions, to wit, By the spirit, for In the spirit, By the which, for in the which, and Are in prison, for were in prison. Corruptions I say they are, as I appeal for trial to their former translation, and of purpose to deny that Christ in soul or spirit did descend to the Fathers that were in Limbo, or as it is here said in prison, when S. Peter wrote his Epistle, as by forcing in the word (Are) in steed of (Were) they would have the Reader think, than wére they not delivered by Christ's descension as we teach, and S. Peter in this place.   

PROTESTANT.  
It is strange to see how you are blinded and oppressed with a spirit of slumber, that you cannot discern how impossible it is to fit this place to your Limbus.  
First, if Abraham's bosom be this imagined limbus, neither may these disobedient in the days of Noah, whom the Scripture calleth the world of the ungodly, 2. Pet 2. 5. be placed in Abraham's bosom, being for eating and drinking, and all sensuality more like to the rich glutton then to Abraham: neither may the old Fathers for whose deliverance 
Luk. 21.  Christ descended, as you say, be branded with the note of disobedience, to whom the holy Ghost beareth witness, that they died in the faith, and had good report for their faith. This 
Heb. 11. 13. 39  place therefore speaking of Christ's coming in the Spirit, and preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient in the days of Noah, cannot be applied to the Fathers in Abraham's bosom, which also very unfitly may be termed a prison.  
Secondly, if it be yielded that Christ went in soul to the place called Abraham's bosom (as we deny not but he did, it being all one with that Paradise, wherein Christ promised that the penitent thief should be with him (yet if your Limbus be in the Region of hell & a border of hell, Christ could not descend into it, when he went into Abraham's bosom; for between Hell and Abraham's bosom there is a great Chaos, or as Augustine saith, Quidam biatus multum ea separans, 
Epist. 99 ad E●od.  a certain wide gap much separating them, a wide space of distance that none can come out of the one Region into the other, and therefore Augustine resolveth, that Abraham's bosom, which is an habitation of a kind of secret quietness or rest, is at no hand to be thought or believed to be any part ●●●●ll. In so much that if the Scripture had said, that Christ when he died went into Abraham's bosom, Augustine marveleth whether any man would have been so bold, as out of such words to affirm, that Christ descended into hell.  
Thirdly, Augustine beating his head about that place, as Euodius offered it unto him, namely to see how it might be applied to Christ's descending into hell, finds so many difficulties in it, that he wisheth Euodius rather to consider whether the whole place belong nothing at all to hell, but rather to those times, the pattern whereof Peter applied to the times present, to show that those which now believe not the Gospel preached, are like those that believed not, and perished in the days of Noe. Thus applying the place to the example of those days, Non suspicemur (saith Augustine) quod apud inferos ad faciendos fideles atque liberandos evangelium predicatum sit. Let us not imagine that the Gospel was preached in hell, to make men faithful, and to deliver them, as if any Church were there. To the other sense which Euodius had taken hold of from others, Augustine saith, The author of at seems to have been drawn, because Peter said, he preached to the Spirits that were shut up in prison, as if (saith he) it might not be understood of their souls, who then were shut up in the darkness of ignorance as in a prison, to whom then living, the building of the Ark by Noah, was after a sort a preaching before the 'slud, as at this day the daily building of God's Church is a preaching to the unbelievers before the day of judgement, and so those times are a pattern of these. Thus having answered this objection he proceedeth to answer another, that might be made against this latter sense, namely that Christ in those times was not come, and therefore could not then preach, Let this trouble no man (saith Augustine) Nondum enim venerat scilicet in carne, veruntamen ab initio generis humani ipse utique non in carne sed in spiritu veniebat: quod autem dixi in spiritu veniebat, Et ipse quidem filius in substantia deitatis, quoniam corpus non est, utique Spiritus est. Christ (saith Augustine) was not then come, to wit, in the flesh, Howbeit from the beginning of mankind he came, not indeed in the flesh, but in the spirit, and that which I said, he came in the Spirit, is thus to be understood, that the son of man in the substance of his godhead, because he is not a body, is without doubt a spirit. This (saith Augustine) the very words of Scripture in hand, do sufficiently manifest to them that take diligent heed unto them, and then repeating the words of the text, maketh this paraphrase of his own, Christus mortificatus carne, vivificatus autem spiritu, In quo spiritu adveniens praedicavit, & illis spiritibus qui incredali fuerant al●quando in diebus Noah, quoniam priusquam veniret in carne pro nobis moriturus, quod semel fecit, saepè antea veniebat in spiritu, ad quos volebat visis eos admoneus sicut volebat, utique in spiritu, quo spiritu & vivificatus est: quum in passione esset carne mortificatus. Quid est enim quod vivificatus est spiritu, nisi quod eadem caro qua sola fuerat mortificatus vivificante spiritu resurrexit? Christ, saith he, was mortified in the flesh, and quickened in the spirit, in which spirit he came & preached even to those spirits which had been sometime disobedient in the days of No; for before he came in the flesh to die for us, which he did once, he came many times before in the spirit to whom he would, warning them by visions as he would, in the spirit doubtless, by the which spirit he was also quickened, wherein his passion he was mortified in the flesh. For what means if that he was quickened by the spirit, but that the same flesh wherein alone Christ was mortified, rose again by the quickening spirit? This exposition of Peter's words (saith Augustine) if any man mislike or think not sufficient, let him seek how he may understand them of bell, and if he can solve the doubts which! have before mentioned, (to wit, against the point of hell) let him show it me, which if be do, these words may be understood both ways, but sure this exposition cannot be convinced of any falsehood. I have been the larger in dilating the learned and holy judgement of Augustine in this behalf, that all men, even the unlearned may see, how when the Fathers make against you, you will not see it, nay rather (as your Rhemists do) you will enforce things spoken by them, as 
Annot. 1. in 1. Pet. 3. 19  by Augustine in this Epistle, but not approved by them, as if they were delivered out of their best judgement.  
Fourthly (to come to your quarreling objections) the two first corruptions wherewith you charge us, to wit, that we translate, By the spirit, for in the spirit, and again, By the which, for In the which you may as well charge Augustine withal as us, who hath gone before us in so understanding, translating, and expounding. For by the word Spirit, understanding the Divinity of our Saviour Christ, it cannot be said that his Divinity was quickened, or he quickened in the Divinity, but by the Divinity his dead body was quickened. And so Dionysius Carthusianus, a man not misliked by yourselves, understandeth & expoundeth the latter words, By which also. Vult itaque (saith he) princeps Apostolorum asserere quod Christus qui nostris temporibus carne indutus veniens pradicavit hominibus ●ter salutis, ipse etiam & ante dilwium eis qui tum increduls erant spiritu veniens praedicavit; Ipse namque per spiritum sanctum erat in Noah, sicque beatissimus Petrus in verbis istis apert●ssimè innuit Christi diu●nitatem, & utriusque natur● unam esse personam in ipso. The Prince of the Apostles (saith Dionysius) meaneth to affirm, that Christ who in our time came clothed with the flesh, and preached unto men the way of salvation, himself also before the flood coming in spirit, preached to them who then were unbelieving: For he himself by his Spirit was in Noah, etc. And so S. Peter in those words doth manifestly imply the divinity of Christ, and that in him there is one person of two natures. He mentioneth indeed that other opinion of Lambus, but makes small reckoning of it, as to belong any thing to this place. And here by occasion of that which Dionysius hath well observed, I will not let it pass unpointed at, how you dam up so notable a stream of the Scriptures, serving to prove the Divinity, and the union of two natures in the one person of Christ, as this place affordeth, only to have some blind pretence for your imagination of Limbus.  
But beside for answer to your accusations, if you please to compare that which S. Paul saith, 1. Tim. 3. 16. Manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit you may find the opposition alike in both, between flesh and spirit, that is, humanity and Deity. The words In spirit in the first place, Haymo interpreteth, Perplenitudinem Divinitatis, Dionysius Carthusianus per operationem Spiritus sancti. As Christ was justified, that is, declared mightily to be the son of God (as Rom. 1. 4.) by the spirit, that is, by his divinity, So was he quickened or raised again from the dead, as Augustine before expounded by the spirit, that is, his divinity.  
The third corruption wherewith you charge our translation is, Are in prison, for were in prison. If you understand Prison as Augustine doth, though you read Were in prison, what get you by it? if by prison the place of unbelievers and disobedient persons after this life be meant, as the noting of their sin, and of their punishment so coupled together do import, what is that but hell, wherein they were not when Christ in Spirit, or By his Spirit preached unto them, but now are, and therefore understanding Christ to have preached to them in noah's time (as Augustine doth) you cannot say they were then in prison when Christ preached, but rather are now for their disobedience.  
Lastly, it might be here noted, how you are feign to fetch about to fit this place to your Limbus. For whereas Peter speaketh of those that were in noah's time disobedient, and saith of them that they are in prison, you to draw it to Limbus, which is a hard matter to match them with faithful Abraham, that are noted by the name of disobedient, and the world of ungodly are feign to devise that some of them repent in the very drowning, and so after some pains felt in purgatory, were translated to Limbus (for so Dionysius 
Annot. 2. in 1 Pet 3. 20.  sets down the opinion of some, and your Rhemists: closely insinuate as much) such turning of devices, and coining of conceits you are put to, before you can handsomely make any thing of this place to serve your turn. But when all comes to all, though you teach that the Fathers were delivered out of Limbus by Christ's descension. yet Peter teacheth no such matter, as before hath been made plain unto you.   

PAPIST.  
Lastly, to prove that Priests may marry, they translate Saint Paul thus, Have we not power to lead about a wife being a sister, 
1. Cor. 9 4.  putting in the word (wife) for (woman) most falsely as their elder translation telleth them. And if we may believe S. Paul himself, he was unmarried. For so he saith plainly in the same Epistle, 
1. Cor. 7. 8.  and therefore what is this but plain corruption?   

PROTESTANT.  
First, what need we strain any Scripture to prove this point, when the Apostle in plain words saith, that a Bishop 
1. Tim. 3. 2.  must be the husband of one wife?  
Secondly, your translation rather straineth and misplaceth the words, putting that first which is second. For in the Apostles words Sister is in the first place, in your translation you have put it in the second place, to make as if it were a limitation of the general word Woman only to Sisters, that is believing women. Whereas indeed the Apostle having first said a sister need not add a Woman, which is necessarily implied in the name Sister, and therefore addeth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for distinction, to put a difference of the Sister he meant from all other Sisters. He therefore meant a Sister being a wife, the fittest companion of their journeys.  
Thirdly, it agreeth neither with the Apostles words, nor his purpose to interpret his words as you use to do of such like women as followed our Saviour Christ, and ministered unto him and his, of their substance: For what power or authority 
Luk. 8. 3.  had the Apostles to lead about such women after them? but to lead about a wife they had power. Besides, the purpose of the Apostle is to show that himself and Barnabas had right to put the Church to more charge by leading such a one about with them: but if he had meant such women as following them in their journeys, ministered unto them of their substance, to have such in their company, had been an ease and no charge to the Church, the contrary whereof the Apostle plainly expresseth, in giving reason why he and Barnabas might have done so, Who goeth a warfare at any time of his own cost? etc. If we have sown unto you 
Verse 33.  spiritual things, is it a great matter if we reap your carnal? The Church therefore of their carnal substance, must have borne the charge of such a sister lead about, and therefore no doubt 
Math. 8. 14.  the Apostle meant a wife, who going with her husband, there could be nothing said against it, and for her husband's sake, the Church must also provide for her. To which charge because the Apostle put them not when he might have done it, he hath therefore the more to say in his own defence.  
Fourthly, the Scripture recording of Peter that he was married, and ancient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were married, namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting john and Paul had wines, and Eusebius h●st. Eccles. lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus, of Peter, Philip, and (as he saith Paul) the Apostles words directly point at that liberty in them, in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas. And very plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Clemens, every man may see that in those times the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken for a wife. Paul (saith he) in a certain Epistle, maketh mention of his wife, whom he therefore did not lead about with him, that more easily and freely he might perform his ministery. Howbeit, if Paul were unmarried, yet is it no corruption so to translate his words, for as much as he had that liberty, though he used it not.  
Lastly, you know that the Scripture saith, Marriage is honourable amongst all men, and the bed undefiled. What more 
Heb. 13. 4.  clear and full allowance can there be, that Priests may lawfully marry, except you will say, that priesthood depriveth them of the honour of God's ordinance, which he hath sanctified to all men. Having general and special warrant for Priest's marriage, besides the place in question, what need we force it? you rather have forced single life upon God's Ministers against his manifest word.   

PAPIST.  
If then they be learned malition fly corrupt the text, who will trust them with the interpretation? as for unlearned Protestants, how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence? can a straight line be drawn by a crooked Rule?   

PROTESTANT.  
Nay rather if the Popish Rabbis have first set up many a crooked practice both in doctrine and God's worship, and then will have the line of interpretotion drawn by the crooked rule of Popish practice secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum. Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures, who are conspired to maintain whatsoever their Synagogue hath corruptly practised? For how can a straight line be drawn by a crooked rule? or how can the unlearned Papists have any means to try the true interpretation of scriptures, even in matters necessary to salvation, who must of necessity sell their souls into the hands of Popish Hucksters, to receive whatsoever sense of scriptures they thrust upon them, and above all, must receive Popish practice as their Creed? and as the practice changeth, so must the sense of Scriptures change, and be one to day, another to morrow, one this year, another the next, according to Cusanus, his rule, Intellectus currit cumpraxi. The understanding of the scriptures runneth with the practice, which practice interpreteth the 
Nicol. Cusan de author. eccles. & Conc. Sup. et cont. scriptu.  scripture at one time after one sort, at another time after another sort. This is the constancy of Popish faith, whereof Papists boast so much.   

PAPIST.  
Out of the premises we may learn the cause why we have such unity in faith to be, for that we acknowledge an infallible judge, for the expounding of the Scriptures, and though in other things we have dissension, as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Barnabas, and no time hath been free from such scandals: yet we keep all one and the same Catholic faith through the world, and the cause why the Protestants have such mortal dissension in matters of faith without all hope of agreement, is for that they acknowledge 
1 joh. 4. 1.  not any infallible and certain judge for the interpretation of the scriptures: For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture, and if we press them that the scriptures may be falsely expounded, them they repair to the spirit, and if we tell them of john, that we must not believe every spirit, then for trial of the spirit, back again they post to the scripture, and so if they be urged on forward, they run round from the scripture to the spirit, & from the spirit to the scripture world without end. And so whilst their spirits agree not together, we see them about many articles of faith, as about the descending of Christ into hell, about the lawfulness of Archbishops, and Bishops, like the camp of the Madianites, to have turned their weapons to mutual destruction, and to lie lugging together 
judges, 7.  by the ears, in endless brawls and contentions.   

PROTESTANT.  
If it were true that you boast of, that you have such unity of your Popish faith, yet could you from such unity no better prove the truth of your Religion, then from the consent of the Israelites, erecting the calf in the wilderness, or from the consent of the jewish Synagogue, against our Saviour Christ, crying Crucific him, crucify him, or from the consent of all Israel in the days of Achab and jezabel, being confederate against Elias alone, you can prove that the Calf was the God that brought the people out of the land of Egypt, or that Baal was the true God, or that our Saviour Christ was a deceiver as the high Priests termed him: Of such unity, God hath forewarned us to take heed by the Prophet Esay. Say ye not a confederacy to all them, to whom this people saith a confederacy, but rather to the law and to the testimony, 
Esa. 8. 12. vers. 20. ver. 9  against which though the people be gathered together in heaps, they shall be broken in pieces, and though they take counsel together, yet it shall be brought to nought, though they pronounce 
vers. 10  a decree, it shall not stand. The Kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take council together against the Lord, and against 
Psal. 2. 2.  his Christ. Not only Tyrants without the Church, but even within the Site of the church, those that springing out of the Church, usurp tyranny over the Church, and against the Lord Christ do make their decrees with a common consent, that if any man confess Christ, he shall be cast out of the Synagogue, 
joh. 9 22.  and having obtained power to sit in men's consciences, oppress them by pretence of sacred authority to make rules of faith, as high Priests and Pharisees, deal with their officers sent to apprehend Christ. Doth any of the rulers 
joh. 7. 48 ver. 49  or of the Pharisees (say they) believe in him? They make show (I grant) to square their faith by the law, but with great craft they arrogate to themselves that they only know the Law. This people (say they) which know not the law are accursed. If any man teach or believe otherwise then pleaseth them, forsooth they know not the Law. These Rabbis challenge only to themselves that they only have the form of knowledge and truth in the law that they must be the guides of the blind, forsooth they only have eyes, all other are blind. This is your Popish unity: these be your infallible judges for the expounding of the scriptures: you first devise a form of faith most serviceable to your idle bellies, your Bishop's Mitres, your Cardinal's hats, your Pope's triple Crown, them you cospire upon a prescription to have in your hands the only command of scriptures, and their sense and exposition, and for preservation of this your tyranny, and to secure the hope of your conspiracy, you reduce all to the Pope's Breast and Chair, who is not without the devils wisdom, not to be divided against himself. And so how fallible soever your judge be, to be deceived himself, and to deceive others that he before them, and they after him may tumble down into the bottomless pit of hell by hy heaps, yet you are sure he will never fail you. Now surely this is a blessed unity: for which you are so much beholding to your infallible judge.  
But is it true that you boast of that, by reason you acknowledge one infallible judge for the expounding of the scriptures, you keep all one, and the same Catholic throughout the world? I will not spend time in ripping up the infinite dissensions that are among your school Tribes, lest you shist off and say, that their dislentions were in other things, and not in matters of faith. The true doctrine of original sin is a matter of Faith, not only in those remote points. 1. That there is original sin. 2. That by propagation it is spread over all mankind from Adam. 3. That the effects thereof are all the calamities which continually wait upon man's life; (Which are the points whereof as being certain 
defen. fid. Trid. lib. 50.  clear, the Church as Andradius saith, hath given her sentence. Quod universo mortalium generi naturae necessitate insidet & cum quo omnes illas calamitates hausimus quibus hominum vita continenter premitur. That by necessity of nature it cleaveth to all mankind, wherewithal we have drawn all those calamities wherewith man's life is continually pressed) But chief in discerning and defining what original sin is, and wherein it doth consist. To show you one Catholic faith in this point: I will not reckon up the sundry opinions of original sin, whereof yourselves as yet could never agree, I will take the confession of the Council of Trent: For thus they say. Inter 
Sess. 5. decret. 1.  pluri●a mala quibus ecclesia his nostris temporibus perturbatur, eriam de peccato originali, eiusque remedio, non solum vetera, sedetiam nova dissidia excitanit●i. Among many evils wherewith the Church of God in these our times is troubled, the Devil hath raised up not only old, but new dissensions about original sin, and the remedy thereof. Was your Church destitute of such an infallible judge for the expounding of scriptures, until the late Council of Trent? if it were, your infallible judge is very young, yet you see for all your infallible judge both of old, and until, and in the times of that Council, your Church was troubled with many dissensions, both about original sin, and the remedy thereof, which I trow, you will not deny to be points of the Catholic faith, Andradius after this Council confesseth no less. Ita peccati huius immanissioni natura 
Defence. fid. Trid. lib. 5.  latet, & atrocissimi Syderis omnia populantis ratio est innoluta, ut nulla in re sit doctorum hominum mator varietas & concertatio. i. The nature of this most monstrous & heinous sin, that makes havoc of all, is so intricate, that about no point there is greater variety and contention among learned men. Whereunto he joineth another question no less controverted (as he saith) among your excellent wits, to wit, how original sin which he calleth Tetrun & immane facinus, a foul and monstrous wickedness could cleave unto little children, that scarcely lived to see the light, nor ever had any power to will? but perhaps the Council of Trent made an end of these dissensions, and so expounded the Scriptures, that now you have but one and the same Catholic faith throughout all the world in this point. No verily, if Andradius were privy to the Counsels meaning: For he affirmeth, that the controversy which the ancients had about the true definition thereof, hath not yet been ullius Concilij authoritate sedata, appeased by the authority of no Council, & therefore free for every man, to hold what opinion he likes best of this controversy not sufficiently enlightened by the Church. Wherefore except your Catholic faith in this point be quot capita tot sensus, how many heads so many opinions, so that your infinite dissent may be allowed for consent, and your many and discording opinions, may go for one and the same Catholic faith, in this great point of faith you have either no faith, or a faith of many fashions variable according to the forge it comes out of. In this fundamental principle, the discovery (I mean) of original sin, to be as the Apostle calleth it, the flesh wherein dwelleth no good 
Rom. 7. 18. verse. 20.  thing, that sin that dwelleth in us, wherewith we are so yoked, that it is always present with us, a law in our members, rebelling against the law of the mind, and leading us captive to the 
verse 21.  law of sin, that is in our members Which until it be known and 
verse 23.  discerned, even concupiscence condemned in the 
verse. 7.  law is not known to be sin, when it is known it makes us cry out and bewail our misery, and to confess with David: 
vers. 24.  Behold I was borne in iniquity, and in sin hath my mother conceived me, it convinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of 
Psal. 51. 5.  man's heart, is only evil continually, that in us, that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it proves us to be dead in trespasses and sins, and therefore to be the children of wrath. Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will, of all presumption 
Gen. 6. 5.  of our own righteousness, and is the most universal schoolmaster to lead all men unto Christ: In this so high a principle of faith (I say) your Church, and his children having either no faith at all, or a faith of many colours, and many 
Eph. 2. 1. 3.  shapes, notwithstanding your infallible judge, boast no longer of your one, and the same Cutholike faith in all the world.  
Your vain and foolish contumely which you cast upon the Protestants, that for trial of the scriptures they repair to the spirit, and for trial of the spirit, post back again to the scriptures, and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit, and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end, bewrays in you great ignorance of our doctrine: For we divide not the Spirit from the Scriptures, nor the Scriptures from the Spirit, that we should be feign to run or go from the one to the other: only in the Scriptures we hear or learn of the Spirit, whatsoever we know in the Scriptures, we know it by the teaching of God's Spirit that speaketh in them, whatsoever we learn of the Spirit, we learn it by, and out of the Scriptures, when we repair to the scriptures, we repair to the Spirit, and when we go to inquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures. If the God of this world had not blinded your eyes, that the light of this truth cannot shine unto you, you would never have upbraided us with posting to and fro, and running round.  
But because you tell us of rounds, I pray you see what rounds your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion, you give out this conclusion as an article. Subesse ro●●no Po●tifici omni creaturae est 
Extr. come de Ma. ior, &. c. obed. ●nam. Sactam.  de necessitate salutis. To be subject to the Pope of Ro●●e is n●cessaerie to salvation for every creature, we require you to prove it, you allege that the Pope is the head of the universal Church, we yet ask for proof, you bring us: Tues Peirus & super hane petram etc. Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, & tibi dabo claves to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven, & pasce oves me as, feed my sheep, feed my lambs. We tell you Peter is one stone in the building, but no rock, or if you will needs have a rock, his confession, or Christ whom heconfessed, is the rock or foundation whereon the Church is builded: we tell you the keys were given to Peter not alone, but to the rest of the Apostles, and he with them commanded to feed sheep and lambs: and further, whatsoever was given to Peter, extendeth not to the Pope, who is not Peter, you say that Peter received those honours for himself, and his successors, and that the Church is built upon him and them, as a rock, and that he for himself & his successors received the keys, and left them to the Pope of Rome, who now is Shepherd over sheep and lambs, & all this you will prove by the scriptures, we require you to prove that the Scriptures have this sense, you fetch your proof from the Fathers, we bring the Fathers as clearly, yea more clearly for our interpretation, than you can for 
Concil. Nicen. Conat. Afric.  yours: you thrust on forward to the Counsels, we bring you the authority of Counsels to make the Pope no more than a peer among other patriarchs, yea to cut him off from meddling out of his Diocese, now you post to Counsels confirmed by the head, that is the Pope, whom either with Conncels, or without, you make your only infallible judge Are you now where you began? do you thus dance in a round and tell us of rounds? The Pope is head of the universal Church. Who saith so? the Scriptures? who shall interpret the Scriptures? the Fathers. Fathers not agreeing who shall judge between them? Counsels: Counsels agree not, who then shall strike the stroke? the Pope. And so the Pope is head of the Church, because the Pope will be so. With these rounds you have made giddy and brai nesicke innumerable poor souls. God in his mercy 'stablish their hearts with grace, that their eyes may see the pit before they fall into it.  
Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants have such mortal dissension, without any hope of agreement? they are many you say, reckon them, that we see how many they be? The descending of Christ into hell, and the lawfulness of Archbishops and Bishops. Is the question about Archbishops & Bishops a matter of faith? among Papists it may well be so, who hold the Pope's supremacy for the first and chief, yea in effect for all the articles of their faith, but surely Protestant's hold it only for a matter of order appertaining to the external government of the Church, which is far from a matter of faith, your many matters of faith then are come to but one, and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all, in your Roman Creed, no nor yet received in the East Churches, 
In. expos. Symboli.  as Ruffinus affirmeth, Sci●naū est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We, must know that it is not found added in the Creed of the Roman Church, neither is the cause received among the East Churches. And being received there 
Epist. 99  was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it. Ruffinus takes it to be all one, with Sepultus est, he was buried. Augustine 
De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap.  (as is afore showed) denies that Abraham's bosom is any part of hell, and else where confesseth that never yet found that it is called hell, where the souls of the righteous do rest. And so little light can be found of any such conceit as Papists 
De Christi. anima lib. 4. cap. 5.  have of Christ's descending into hell, that Bellarmine saith: Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi etc. The presence of Christ's soul to enlighten the Fathers with the divine vision of him, is not necessary, yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing. He makes it not of necessity, but of congruity, and that but in seeming neither, this is (as touching the sense) but a weak matter of faith to object unto us, that we descent about it: For we descent not about the words of the article, but receive it, we are also agreed that it must bear such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogy of faith, then although we differ about the proper sense of the words, yet differ we not about any matter of Faith, as you do about original sin.   

PAPIST.  
Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for ●uer, as ours hath done and not theirs: we have the ancient Fathers for patrons of our cause, they be destitute of all antiquity: we have the truth in many points according to their own confession, and they consequently falsehood: we have the Scriptures and their true interpretation, they only the bare name, and private erroneous exposition: I conclude, that whosoever will be saved, must not hear them, but embrace our old Catholic & Apostolic faith.   

PROTESTANT.  
The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ, as men have been in their times visible, are and shall be to the world's end; they have been also generally to some of their fellow members visibly in their times, as members of the body of Christ: howbeit, the visibility of Churches established, and in their assemblies, worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they have often wanted, as in the Egyptian captivity, the days of Elias, the captivity of Babylon, the dispersion caused by saul's persecution, and under the overspreading tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, driving the woman that brought forth the manchild into 
Revel. 12. 13. 14  the wilderness, into a p●●e prepared for her of God. During which captivity of the Church in several times, either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt, or Church idolatry, as the golden calves, and the service of Baal before and in the days of Elias, or carnal worship as among the jews in the dispersion aforesaid, or mere Atheism as under Sanballat and Tobijah, or the mystery of iniquity under the show of pseudochristianitie, as in the Apostasy of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the only Religion. Such is the visibility of your Romish apostasy, like the visibility of Ierob●ams calves of Baal's Church of the Scribes and pharisees and in pretence to build with the I●wes, that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah, or at the be●● to Eliashab their friend. In this visibility you have set forth many goodly Pageants to dazzle the eyes of all those in whom ●he God of this world hath blinded their eyes, that the light of the 
2 Cor. 4. 3. 4.  glorious Gospel of Christ should not shine unto them: as the state of Popes and Cardinals, the Babylonish magnificence of your temples, beset with sumptuous idols, the stage play of your Mass, with your whole Antichristian tyranny, which you have vaunted to the world, as the harlot her bedecked bed 
Prou. 7. 15. 17.  with ornaments, carpets, and lays of Egypt, perfumed with Myrrh, Aloes, and Cinnamon, and like unto the picture of 
Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5.  your Church, the mother of whoredoms and abominations, that sitteth upon a scarlet coloured beast, and is arrayed in purple and scarlet, and guided with gold, and precious stones, and pearls, and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abominations, and filthiness of her fornications. Of such visibility we give you leave to boast, and rejoice that we have no part with you in your glory, lest we should also have part with you in your plagues.  
And albeit, GOD hath granted more visibility to our Churches, than you can endure with patience to behold, yet make we not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church.  
That faith, that worship which by open confession and practice, was visible in our Saviour Christ, and his blessed Apostles, which in their holy writings inspired of God, they have delivered to be seen, read, and understood to be held and observed of all the true Church of God, is a demonstrative and infallible visibility, which wheresoever it is to be seen and discerned, proveth and convinceth that they are the Church of Christ. This is the only visibility whereby the true Church is to be discerned and known, which we have often proved, and we hope is manifest to all men's consciences to be found in our Church, and you shall never be able while the world standeth to make any sound proof, that your Church hath any such visibility, but manifestly the contrary.  
What patronage the ancient Fathers lend unto your cause, hath been before showed where you alleged any thing out of them, and often hath been further in all the fundamental points, wherein you ● dissent from us and from the truth. You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they used them: you are confident to affirm some things whereof they doubted: you take up their errors for principles of your faith: you abuse and pervert their words and phrases to a contrary meaning, and in these only (as touching your Popish religion) you follow the Fathers; but their judicious testimonies touching the fundamental points of Doctrine, as original sin and the fruit thereof, concupiscence, free will, justification, the use of good works, the Sacraments and diverse other points you will not see, or else you pervert as the instable do the Scriptures to their own destruction. 
2. Pet. 3. 16.   
Compare what they writ in one place, with that which they writ in another, note the occasion, mark the end, discern the adversary they have to deal with, consider the strain of their moved affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech, you shall find the Fathers to yield you but small help, and to be but slender patrons of your apostasy: on the contrary, you shall perceive that as we have the eldest antiquity, for proof whereof we cite the records of Scripture, so have we the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith, touching the Deity; the Trinity, providence, touching Christ, his person, natures, offices, mediation, and our redemption by him touching the holy Ghost, and his operation in the Church ●ouching the Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, and all necessary parts thereof, touching remission of sins, touching the resurrection and eternal life. In other matters, if some where we vary from the Fathers, as they varied one from another, and some of them from themselves, we ha●e their leaves. I have before showed you what difference. 
Cont. julian. Pelag. lib 1.  Augustine makes between Fundamenta fides & Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores, salva fidei compage non consonant, between the Foundations of faith, and other points whereabout the learned stayed best defenders of the Catholic rule do not agree yelw, ●hout impeachment to the frame of faith.  
To your vain pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith, enough hath been said before.  
As for the Scriptures you have them indeene, and you keep them so close that neither yourselves will search them as you ought, nor suffer those that would. You banish the Originals, and bind to a corrupt translation as Authon●●cal. You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read. Thus you have the Scriptures as in a prison, but as you should have them to make them common to all men by reading preaching, and teaching, you have them not.  
The interpretation of Scriptures you have such, as may stand with your Popish practice, which is the privy rule of your interpretation, and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you. But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof, and the rule of faith (which Augustine so much commendeth) you neither have nor will had; nor suffer others to have if you may let it: and so your interpretation is private, as either being the Popes, or proceeding from your own faction addicted to your received practice, but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God, testified by himself in the Scriptures inspired by him, as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prove, and therefore blasphemously by you called private.  
Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen, partly in a false Church, which the longer it continueth, the worse. You have but some show of the Fathers on your side, when indeed they are against you, and so have not the antiquity of truth but of error, you neither have the Scriptures as you should have them for yourselves and others, nor their true sense and interpretation, but only of your own making: your Popish faith, though it be old in itself, yet in respect of the days of our Fathers, our Saviour Christ, the Apostles, and Prophets, the days thereof have been but few and evil, and therefore it is not the old Catholic & Apostolic faith, whatsoever this false and forceless Reasoner hath said.    

PAPIST.  

A short Addition.  
Believe assuredly, and hold for certain, that no Heretic and Schismatic, that uniteth not himself to the Catholic Church again, how great alms soever he give, yea or shed his blood for Christ's name, can possibly be saved. For many heretics by the cloak of Christ's cause, deceiving the simple suffer much, but where no true faith is, there is no justice, because the just liveth by faith: so it is also of Schismatics, because where charity is not, no justice can be there, which of they had, they would never pluck in pieces the body of Christ which is the Church.  
A Sentence of S. Austin worthy to be noted, of such as think that men which live virtuously, may go to heaven, though they believe not the Catholic faith, nor be members of his true Church. For as most certain it is, that none which believe not all the articles of the Catholic faith, can be saved, though to the eyes of the world be live or die never so well; for without faith it is (as Paul saith) unpossible to please God. And S. Athanasius telleth us, that whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which faith without every one shall keep whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall perish for ever: so no less certain it is, that although we believe never so well, yet if we live not according to that faith, and so abstain from communicating with heretics in their service and Sacraments, we cannot be saved. For he that shall deny Christ before men, Christ also will deny him before his Father in heaven, as himself saith. And if we may without sin temporize and frame our conscience according to the law, when shall we take up our Cross and follow Crist, as himself willeth us? And what meant the blessed Apostles and so many 1000 of Martyrs to shed their blood for Christ, of an inward and secret faith might have brought them to heaven, and they might outwardly have yielded to Prince's laws, and keep their conscience to themselves? This doctrine Christ's servants know not it is devised only for the cold comfort of such as love this world too much, and fear persecution. But let such think of this saying of our Saviour, Fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him that can destroy both body & soul into hell: and let them imitate noble Eleazarus, 
Mart. 2. 28.  who rather made choice of cruel death, then to dissemble in the cause of religion, and do that with the scandal of others, which of itself was no sin at all.   

PROTESTANT.  
Augustine's Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39 is one●● thus much: Formissimè tene & nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum, sive schismaticum, in nomine patris & filii, & spiritus sancti baptizatum, si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit, & si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit, nullatenus posse salvari, that is, Firmly believe, & by no means doubt that every heretic or schismatic, being baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost, how great alms soever he do, yea though he shed his blood for Christ's name, yet if he be not gathered to the Catholic Church, by no means can be saved. This sentence though not word for word, yet in effect you rehearse, but you add thereunto more words, whereof Augustine in that place hath never a one, & yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen, as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter. It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustine's words yourself, but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustine's words ended. The rest is a truth, but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence: what would you now infer out of this sentence of Augustine? First that men though they live never so virtuously, yet if they believe not the Catholic faith, nor be members of his true Church cannot be saved. Secondly, that if men believe never so well, yet if they live not according to the faith, and so abstain from communicating with heretics in their service and sacraments they cannot be saved, and so proceed on to condemn those that outwardly have yielded to Prince's Laws, and keep their consciences to themselves. All which, may with no gain to you be yielded, it the chief terms be well understood, to wit, Catholic Church, Catholic Faith, and Heretics or Schismatics: For if the Popish Church be not the Catholic Church, nor the Popish Faith, the Catholic Faith, nor they Heretics or Schismatics that stand in opposition to Popery, or do departed from Popish communion, then what gain you by this whole addition? But it is a world to see into what a maze you have led the poor sheep of your flock, that no sooner they hear Catholic Church, or Catholic Faith, but by and by they think of Popish Church, and Popish Faith, between which, there is no less difference, then between light and darkness: And again, when they hear of Her●tikes they presently think of Protestants, whereas indeed if they had eyes to discern of heresy or an Heretic they would rather apply it to Papists: But I hearty wish all blinded Papists advisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustine's words: That although men live and die never so virtuously, yet except they believe the Catholic faith, and be members of the true church they cannot be saved. The name of good works is amiable to all well minded men, and by pretence of great zeal for good works. your faction hath crept into the minds of many, that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning: Howbeit by good works you chief mean those works that bring some gain unto yourselves, otherwise tolerating and dispensing with the breach of God's commandments in any point, whereby your Popish kingdom takes no harm, or is not hindered: Such therefore as have blindly followed you out of an opinion that you are the only patron of good works, I wish to observe that by your own confession, though a man live or die never so well yet he cannot be saved except he hold the Catholic Faith & be a member of the true church, because without faith he cannot please God. Doth it not then behove all men to advise with themselves well how they may know the Catholic Faith, & the true Church: There were that said they were jews & were the Synagogue of Satan The Donatists claimed unto themselves 
Apoc. 39  the title of Catholic Church, and Catholic Faith which other Heretics both have done & may do as well as they. Let them not therefore think or believe that the Popish Church and faith, is Catholic, because Papists say so, but let them examine your Church and Faith, whether it be Catholic or no, which only by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discern. In the Scriptures (saith Augustine to the Donatists) we have learned Christ, and in the Scriptures 
Epist. 166.  we have learned the Church: These Scriptures we have common to us both, why do we not in them retain in common both Christ and the Church? & in the end of the same Epistle; Behold the scriptures are common to us both; Behold where we have known Christ; Behold where we have known the Church. This learned and godly Father, when both sides challenge to themselves that they are the Catholic Church, that they have the faith of Christ, calls them to the trial of scriptures as the surest means to know both Christ and the Church by. By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoil of many souls under the colour of Catholic Church, and Catholic Faith they shall be found to be deceivers, and no better than the Synagogue of Satan.  
Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papists, unto their zeal of good works, labour to join a right judgement in matters of faith, from point to point in all those Articles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessary, that except a man believe them whole and inviolate, he shall perish for ever. The blind ordinary faith of Papists to believe as the Popish Church believeth, is not that Catholic faith which Athanasius saith: Every one must believe that will be saved. Since then by your own confession, where no true faith is, there is no justice, it behoveth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold, not resting their faith in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God, that is in the Gospel, which is, the power of God to salvation to every one that believeth, by which only faith, the just man shall live, and not by such 
Rom. 1. 16  a faith as is built upon the Pope's power, to make what faith he list.  
The Second thing you would infer of Augustine's words is, that although we believe never so well, yet if we live not according to faith, and so abstain from communicating with Heretics in their service and sacraments we cannot be saved. If the terms be rightly understood the doctrine is true & wholesome: for men that believe must live according to faith, & all true believers must abstain from communicating with Heretics, but understanding Faith for Popish faith, and Heretics for those that are opposite to Popery, that is indeed true believers, under these cloudy and misty words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you, the poison of disloyalty, treason & rebellion, which is now the principal Article of your Popish faith, for the, Popish faith is that it is of necessity of salvation that every soul be subject to the Pope, that the Pope hath power to accurse and depose Princes, and absolve their subjects from all their allegiance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope, or deposed by him: These are the chief articles of your popish Creed: Whosoever believeth and obeyeth these shall undoubtedly be saved, how be it in the Pope's heaven, that is in Gehenna, in he●, fire, whither the Pope draws innumerable souls 
Dist. 40. si Papa.  with him to be tormented with everlasting fire. Your meaning then is to breed a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you call Catholics in this land, that although they be never so devout Papists, yet if they walk not according to their Popish faith, that is, if they be not true to the Pope's triple crown if they practise not by all means to reduce his tyranny into this kingdom, if they be not at all times traitors in heart & purpose, & as soon as opportunity serveth traitors in action, they cannot be saved. This is the wholesome doctrine of Popery, as appeareth both by the Bull of P●us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memory, and by Nicholas Sanders, who thus writeth. Huc igttur iam 
De visib. movarc. lib. 2. cap. 4.  tandemres deducta est, etc. Now than the matter is brought to this point, that an Heretical King must be removed from the kingdom which he holdeth over Christians. And because the crime for which he is to be removed is committed against faith, doubtless it belongeth chief to the Bishops both to pronounce the King himself an Heretic, or otherwise an Apostata, and also to declare that his subjects are from thence forth free of yielding obedience unto him, & that they ought to do their best that another may withal speed be supplied in his roomth. Who seethe not that utterly it abhorreth from the salvation of men's souls to suffer him to reign over the faithful who is himself an infidel? O miserable Popish faith which driveth all subjects of protestant, that is christian Princes either to be rebels and traitors as a matter appertaining to the salvation of their souls, or else utterly to despair of salvation, for that you add of communicating with those whom you call Heretics, it is some part indeed of your Popish faith, that your adherents ought to abstain from our service and sacraments, and most willingly you would have all Papists so to do, because you make reckoning that the more desperate they grow herein, the more near and apt they are to rebellion and traitorous attempts, but yet rather than altogether to drive them from you, you will moderate the rigour of your faith in this point, and permit them to serve the times, always provided that you be sure of their hearts, and that they fail you not when opportunity serveth, as appeared in the faculty granted to Parsons and Campia●: But mark what this forcible Reasoner saith. Such doctrine (to wit as this faculty containeth) is devised only for the cold comfort of such as love the world to much. Howsoever the Pope dispense with Church Papists, this Ghostly Father and such like tell them, that such dispensations are but cold comfort, & so slender reckoning they make of them, that they call them no better than Temporizers and such as frame their consciences to the laws, and finally such as love the world too much. If the Popish faith, were the true Christian faith, no doubt this reprehension were just: It behoveth therefore all seduced Papists to try the Popish faith by the word of God, whether it be the true faith or not, I speak not of those Catholic points of faith which the popish Synagogue holdeth in common with the church of Christ, but of that Apostasy which is risen up in the Church and under the colour and name of the Church to beguile the unstable and unbelieving.  
Beware of false Prophets (saith our Saviour Christ) which 
Matth 7 15. Operam perfect. 10 Matth. 7. hom. 19  come unto you ●● sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are revening wolves. Christians (saith Chrysostome) are rightly called sheep, but the sheep's garment is the show of christianity A wolf many times wears a sheep's garment, that is, makes a countersait show of religion in semblance either of those works that being rightly done are the works of sheep, or of the practice of that religion, which is the religion of sheep. Counfait alms (saith Chrisostom) is a sheep's garment but not a sheep's work: Counterfeit prayer is a sheep's garment, but no sheep's work Counterfeit fasting is a sheeps garment but no sheeps work. So are all other shows of piety wherewith ravening wolves clothe themselves. The Popish agents make great vaunts of alms, prayer and fasting, by boasting of good things to insinuate themselves into honest minds: This ostentation is nothing else but a sheeps garment. Again, in practice of religion they make a great show, and thereby dazzle the eyes of the ignorant, for (to use the words of Chrysostome) out of their simplitie and zeal, but not according to knowledge, thus they say. How can I say that he is no christian, whom I see to confess Christ, to have an Altar, to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine, to read the holy scriptures, to have all the order of priesthood. Whereunto Chrysostome maketh this answer. That even an Ape hath the members of a man, and in all things like a man, shall we therefore say that it is a man. So likewise Heresy hath and imitateth all the mysteries of the church, but Heretics are not the church, yea (saith Chrisostom) they show to be grounded christians, & they have their churches, nay they govern churches, & yet openly anaucentiously subvert them, yea they are so multiplied that christians seem rather to be wonderers or deceivers than they, yet are they inwardly ravening Wolves, because they seek not to save but to destroy Christians, as the nature of the Wolf is. Hitherto Chrysostome hath set forth the fair and deceivable shows that false Prophets make both of their works and of their faith. wherein they would seem to be sheep, but are indeed ravening Wolves. Now let us see what advise he gives to beware of them, and to try them. By their fruits ye shall know them. The fruit of a man (saith Chrysostome) is the confession of his mouth, and the work of his conversation. If therefore thou see a Christian man, consider by and by whether his confession agree with the Scriptures; if it do, he is a true Christian: but if it be not as Christ hath commanded, he is a false Christian. For so john writing in his Epistle of heretics, said not, If any man come unto you not having the name of Christ, Say not unto him God speed, but if any man bring not this doctrine. He referred the trial of Christianity, not to the name of Christ, but to the Confession, because not only the name maketh a Christian, but also the truth of Christ: for many walk in the name of Christ, but few in his Truth. Then coning to the works of conversation. Doth a sheep (saith he) at any time persecute the Wolf, or rather the Wolf the sheep. So Cain persecuted Abel, and not Abel Cain Ishmael Isaac, and not Isaac Ishmael; Esau jacob, and not jacob Esau, the jews Christ, and not Christ the jews, heretics Christians, and not Christians heretics. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them. For if a Wolf be covered with a sheeps skin, how shall a man know him, but either by his voice or by his deed? In which comparison, you may there see how Chrysostom proceedeth farther. A little after, he saith, But what fruits do they bring forth, wounds, troubles, & other mischiefs. As a thorn or a bramble, of what side soever you view it, hath prickles, so of what side soever you consider the servants of the devil, they are full of iniquities. If he speak, he speaks deceitfully: if he hold his peace, he museth of evil. If he be angry, he is mad, if he deal patiently, he waiteth for a time to hurt, and considereth of some opportunity when he may do mischief. If he do evil, he is not ashamed, ●f he do well, he doth it for vain glory because of men. Thus far Chrysostome.  
Briefly to make Application. The Popish Church is of great authority, even for the very names sake of the Church with all seduced Papists. Their ostentation of alms, prayer and fasting, makes a great show in their eyes Their confession of Christ, their altars, their pretended sacrifice, their baptism, their reading of Scriptures, and show of Fathers, their priestly order do seem to be infallible signs of a true Church. Howbeit, as you have seen, Chrysostome affirmeth that heretics have all these, yet are they no more the true Church for these than an Ape is a man, for the resemblance he hath of the parts of man's body. Their multitude especially considering the reach of long time, makes many suppose it impossible that they should be false Churches. Yet Chrys●stome showeth, that herein heretics are so far before Christians, that Christians rather seem to be deceivers, or new upstart and vagrant persons. What then is to be done to discern them? Try them by their fruits, that is the confession of their faith, and the works of their conversation. And how shall we try the confession of their faith? by the Scriptures (saith Chrysostome) and by the commandment of Christ. But Papists admit no trial of their faith, but by themselves they are the Church. The Pope is the supreme Pastor: he that will not hear this Church and this Pastor, is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican. What is this else but that which Chrysostome saith, they ruling the Church, do openly and licentiously subvert the Church: for they prescribe their own practice for the rule of faith, and take away all indifferent means of trial, and will be both makers and judges of faith. This is the confession of their faith, that they are the Church, and you must believe it, and therefore believe that all is true which they say, & whatsoever interpretation of the scriptures they deliver, it is the true sense of the scriptures, what heresy by this prescription may not be maintained? yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church, if any one spirit must be thus believed without submission to be tried by the Scriptures? Come to their conversation. Are not their fruits wounds, troubles, and manifold mischiefs, deposing of Princes, inciting of subjects to rebellions, procurement of foreign invasions, impoysonings and murders of Princes, and all that stand in their light, threatenings of stabbings, and cutting of throats, finally underminings of Parliaments, and conveyances of powder to blow up King, Queen Prince Nobles, Bishops. judges, Commons, & that without any distinction even in a moment? Can they charge Protestants whom they call heretics, with such savage, wolvish, ye devilish, h●llish, and stygian practices? They draw unto them all the sons of Belial, whom they can entice out of all protestant kingdoms and states, to make continual employment of them, to work the subversion of their native Countries, to infect with butcherly and Scith●an cruelty the minds of subjects, by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and untimely temporal deaths, and to eternal damnation, not caring what become of their bodies or souls so their turns be served. Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestial cruelty? They receive the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit murders, to practise rebellions, to subvert kingdoms; yea, they promise before hand, and grant great pardons to such as they procure to undertake such villainies. They make Martyrs of those, who for barbarous treasons, rebellions, and murders, have justly suffered such punishment as they deserved both by the law of God and man. Are these the works of sheep or of wolves? By their fruits therefore you shall know them: they are on every side full of sharp and cruel prickles. If they speak they equivocate, if they be silent, there are seven abominations in their hearts, as the sequel hath ever proved; if they be angry they are mad, nothing will serve but invasions, rebellions, poisonings, powder treasons, and all manner fell and cruel practices: If they be patiented, they wait a time to hurt, and in the mean time they are preparing some mischief, as manifold experience hath proved, and the sun hath often seen: If they do evil, they are not ashamed, as the desperate obstinacy of the late powder traitors showed. If they do any thing well, they do it for vain glory to beseen of men, and to get a name to themselves. Is this the Church whereof every man must be a member, or else he cannot be saved? is this the Catholic faith? is this to live according to the faith? will any man be so blinded, that for love or zeal to such a Synagogue, or for awe or fear of the curse of such cursed workers, he will refuse to join with the Protestants in their service & Sacraments? My dear brethren, put no trust in any child of man, which by Augustine's confession our Saviour Christ forbiddeth, Pin not your salvation upon his sleeve, that may go to hell himself, I mean the Pope. Beware of them that outwardly wear only sheeps clothing, but inwardly are very ravening Wolves, as you find by their fruits. Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and honesty by none but themselves, suspect their honesty that shut up the Scriptures from you, which our Saviour Christ commanded all men to search. Finally, inquire whether Christ or any Apostle, or any holy Council or Father did ever put poison, sword, or powder into men's hands, to murder the sacred persons of Kings, to ruinated whole Kingdoms, and to promote the faith of Christ by poison, sword, and fire. If you find any such precedent, hearken to this forcible reasoner, and all other jesuits and Seminaries, refuse our Churches, our service, and Sacraments. If not, disclaim that religion, that faith, that service, that Sacrament that serveth to combine such conspiracies, that must get up and prosper by such monstrous and endless cruelty. God of his mercy open your eyes, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ jesus may shine unto you, that you may be able to discern the mystery of iniquity, which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdom of Antichrist, that you may know the synagogue of Satan, from the Church of Christ, and at length come out from Babylon, and escape the wrath present and to come, and finally be saved by the only faith of jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.    
FINIS.