AN ADVERTISEMENT CONCERNING A BOOK LATELY Published by Christopher Lawn and others, against the English exiled Church at Amsterdam. By Richard Clyfton Teacher of the same Church. Psal. 57.4. My soul is among Lions: I lie among them that are set on fire: even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword. Esa. 50.6. I gave my back unto the smiters, & my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hide not my face from shame and spitting. Mat. 10.24.25. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master is, and the servant as his Lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household? PRINTED In the year of our Lord, 1612. The Preface to the Reader. CHristian Reader, it is not unknown, that when Thomas White published his Book, called A Discovery of Brownism, (as now again of late, Christopher Lawn & others with him have done theirs) that there was an Inquirie & Answer thereof written by the Pastor of this Church, wherein he followed the particulars from point to point. In which regard it may be thought less needful to write any thing about this latter Book, being of like matter and argument with the other. Yet in some respects, we have thought it not amiss, now to give thee this short advertisement, and the few observations following, about the contents of this latter Book also, especially about that point of the division made lately among us, and the articles given out thereabout. Concerning which there was not such occasion before, either in that Answer to Thomas White, or in any other of our writings, to publish somewhat thereabout, as there was about the other matters contained in this Book of theirs. And therefore for thy better stay and information, is the advertisement following now given thee about these things: where they are more at large (though yet but briefly) spoken of. Which thou shal● do well to consider of indifferently, and be not carried from the truth or against it by any sinister means used to that purpose, but remember what hath been the lot of the truth and servants of God in all ages. And as thy love is to the Lord jesus Christ, so let it appear in the embracing of his truth revealed, and i● giving witness unto the same. And the Lord our God increase in thine heart, the riches of the full assurance of understanding to know the mystery of God, Col. 2.2. even the father, and of Christ, and to rejoice in the faith and order prescribed in his word. And he give thee to discern thereof aright, that the entiseing words of man's wisdom, deceive thee not: but go to the la and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Esa. 8.20. So mayest thou sound judge of things that differ. And the Lord give thee understanding in all all things. 2 Tim. 2.7. AN ADVERTISEMENT CONcerning a Book lately published by Christopher Lawn and others, against the English exiled Church at Amsterdam. WHen it pleased the Lord jesus to reveal the word of his truth, unto the Gentiles, by the ministery of his servants the Apostles there arose up adversaries to withstand the same, and to abuse his witnesses thereof. When Paul and Barnabas were sent forth by the Lord to preach the Gospel to the nations, they coming to Paphus, the Deputy Sergius Paulus called them unto him, and desired to hear the word of God; then Satan stirred up his instrument, Elymas, a false Prophet and a sorcerer, who withstood them, & sought to turn away the Deputy from the faith. Act. 13. 6-10. The like also did some of the jew at Antiochia, who seeing the word of God to prevail amongst the Gentiles (and them desirous of further instruction therein) were full of envy & spoke against those things, which were spoken of Paul, contradicting & blaspheming. ver. 45. Like enemies did Paul again find at Ephesus, of the jew. For he having spoken boldly in their Synagogue for the space of three moonths, disputing & persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God: then certain of the jew having their hearts hardened, not only disobeyed and believed not the word, but spoke evil of that way before the multitude. Act. 19.8.9. And many other the like examples of men opposing against the word of truth, and of haters & persecutors of the professors thereof might be showed, both out of the Scriptures and ecclesiastical histories. And as than it was, in the first opening of the light to the Gentiles, that Satan by his Ministers withstood the preaching thereof: so now since that the Lord in mercy hath discovered the man of sin, and caused his truth (obscured by the dark mists of Popery) again to be revealed to us in these last times; sending his first, Apoc. 14.6. etc. second, and third Angels, to preach an everlasting Gospel to them that devil on the earth, that were overspread in Apostasy with the errors & abominations of the man of sin: and to teach us to walk in the ways of God; calling us from the worship of the beast, and receiving of his mark, to keep the commandments of God, and the faith of jesus etc. even now also, I say, have there risen up enemies of all sorts, to stop this way of truth, & to reproach, vex, and persecute the witnesses thereof. For to pass by all those hard speeches and ungodly deeds that have been since & before the days of Luther against the Saints and faith of jesus; I will come to our own particular case and state, whereof there be many of us, that by experience can give testimony, what hard measure we have sustained for the cause of Christ: and do still undergo reproaches, slanders, railings against, and the like: as it cannot be unknowen (especially to our countrymen) what we have borne at the hands of some of them, who have many times & ways smitten us with their tongues: jer. 18.18. besides all the other troubles and persecutions sustained by us, to imprisonment, banishment and death itself. And what is it for, but because (according to the measure of grace, given us from above) we have separated ourselves from such corruptions of Antichrist, wherein we formerly stood: and do walk in the way of the Lord revealed unto us out of his word, witnessing against all false ways and devises of men brought into the Church for the worship & service of God, our desire and endeavour being to stand and plead for that old and good way of God, wherein all are bound to walk. jer. 6.16. For if the opposition against us were only and simply for sin, and through an hatred that such men have against sin, than would they first begin with themselves, both to look to their own sins and iniquities, and to take the like course against the sins and transgressions of those Churches and members thereof, where now they are, or where ever they should be. But thus hath it pleased God to make us like in bearing reproaches and calumniations to his Saints and people of old, who feeling the burden thereof to be heavy and grievous, complained unto the Lord, saying: How long shall the adversary reproach, shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? Psal. 74.10. And again, they utter forth their complaint, saying: We are a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us. Psal. 79.4. And even this is our case, who also are made a reproach to our neighbours, a jest and a laughing stock to them that are round about us: having our souls also (as they had theirs) filled too full of the mocking of the wealthy, and dispitefulnes of the proud. Psal. 44.13. and 123.4, So that in respect hereof we may complain with David, who said, I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but specially among my neighbours; and a fear to mine acquaintance, who seeing me in the streets fled from me. And again, I am become a stranger unto my Brother, even an alien unto my mother's sons. I became a proverb unto them, and they that sit in the gatespake against me, and the drunkards song of me. Psal. 31.11. and 69.7.8.11.12. And although our loving Father do thus humble & chastise us justly for our sins, yet doth he also in mercy cover them: and gives us now to bear these slanderoous reports, of Schismatics and the like, for the testimony of his truth: In which respect the Lord indeed honoureth us. For our Church's estate, and our consciences do witness with us and for us to God and men, that we have not willingly left any truth, or any ordinance of God, that we had formerly received with others in our apostate standing, but are careful to retain them all (what in us is) purged from the corruptions that were mixed with them, in our former corrupt receiving of them. Neither have we made division and offences contrary to the doctrine, which we have learned from the Apostles; but do walk in the ancient way of the primitive Churches, keeping the ordinances, worship, and order of government, prescribed by the Apostles, without the mixture of Antichristian or other human additions: And therefore unjustly are we termed Schismatics. If it can be showed otherwise in any thing, let the witnesses, the writings of the Apostles and Prophets be brought forth against us: and we trust we shall through the grace of God yield thereunto: as we have been careful hitherto to show it forth in the redressing of such things as have been observed among us to swerve any way from the word of God. Great are our trials by men on all hands, which we suffer for our witness bearing of jesus, while besides our exile & other afflictions, some are speaking bitter and slanderoous words against us, yea and our own neighbours spare us not, and others also sharpen their pens to reproach us, and to that end write reproachful books against us: that we may say with Israel, If the Lord had not been on our side, when men rose up against us, they had swallowed us up quick. Psal. 124. 13. Yet if these reproaches & hard dealings touched ourselves only, and did not with all reach to the truth which we witness; we could and would rest patiently, waiting until the Lord avenge our cause; & would not once open our mouths or set our pens to paper, to write in defence of our porsonall injuries: But seeing thus together with detracting of us, the truth of God comes to be reproached, and despised in this respect; if we should pass over these things altogether with silence, and not stand in defence of the Lords cause, we might be arraigned justly as guilty of betraying his truth, & as men ashamed of Christ before men: We dare not therefore herein be wanting to bear witness to the word of truth, when men thus labour the darkening thereof, and for the maintenance of their own corruptions, do set themselves to speak and write against the same. Of late there is come forth a pamphlet and slanderoous book full of reproaches, published by one Christopher Lawn and other his companions. In which there are contained sundry things of diverse sorts. Some touching our general cause, about the Church of England: some concerning the singing of Psalms used among us: some about personal matters, concerning diverse of us & others: some touching a divisio made lately by diverse among us, etc. Concerning our general cause, although we have written often, and many treatises thereabout, which remain yet unanswered: yet seeing we are here again thus abused about it; and that not only by the persons aforesaid, (which we might better pass by) but by one M. Robert Parker, whose testimony is here inserted: we purpose therefore (Godwilling) to write in particular about his testimony; etc. so again by this occasion to publish somewhat more about that our general cause aforesaid: although for the present we have both some occasions to deal in other things, and some reasons to stay us yet a while from publishing of that, which by the grace of God, we purpose to do. In the mean time, let this be noted concerning M. Parker and his testimony: how he hath heretofore in a large book pleaded against the Church of England, that by reason of the cross in Baptism, & other Ceremonies retained among them, they become guilty of the breach of all the ten commandments, as also of communion with Antichrist, & slavery under him, etc. Now we purpose to try, how he can on the other hand approve the state of the same Church, as now it standeth, and as it is witnessed against by us: & how he can warrant us communion with the same in that their estate: or whether it may please God by this means to give him & others, better to observe and regard their halting between two opinions, than hitherto they have done. We find that for the former plea, handled in his book, he hath alleged the Scriptures plentifully, as throughout the book may be seen: but whether he can so do for this latter, spoken of in his testimony against us, time and further occasion will manifest. Yet in the mean time all may see, that there is not the like done against our cause, either in his testimony published, or in the whole book, wherewith his testimony is joined: which is as barren of warrant from the Scripture, for the estate of the Church of England called into question, as M. Parker's former book against it is fruitful therein. Which let the Reader well observe. Touching the singing of Psalms used amongst us (whereof the persons aforesaid speak also their pleasure in their book) we are purposed ere long, if God willto publish them: whatsoever those men say or would insinuate to the contrary, or in any other respect thereabout. And so we shall leave it to the indifferent judgement of all, how these men have dealt with us in this behalf. And sooner also might we publish both these and other things, than we do, were it not for the troubles, that these men and others have procured us, and still do. As for the personal matters published in the book aforesaid, although we leave the matters concerning others to themselves; & do for this Church acknowledge that indeed we have had our transgressions and infirmities like as in the Churches of Corinth, Galatia, and others in all ages, and at this day may be seen: for which we are much grieved: yet is it good & needful for the Reader here, & always to remember that saying, Quis erit innocens, si accusare sufficiat? If to accuse be sufficient, who can be innocent? For there will be accusers always (as M. Parker upon the same saying inferreth in his book) as long as the Maxim liveth, M. Park. scholast. disc, against symbolizing with Antichrist in ceremonies, etc. 2 book. pag. 118. which one gave once in Alexander's court: Fortiter calumniare, nam etsi vulnus curetur, cicatrix tamen remanebit. Give out calumniations mightily, for though the wound be healed, yet will the scar remain. But the godly will better consider of things, remembering the common frailty even of the best, and not forgetting the commandment of God, whereof M. Parker in his testimony seasonably putteth the reader in mind, Thou shalt not receive a false tale against thy neighbour: as also knowing that all lying & reproachful dealing should not by right live longer than the lie of the Gibeonites. And how ever we be dealt withal in this sort, yet must we comfort ourselves, in the assurances of God's mercies, and in the common and continual lot of God's servants, walcking through good and through evil report before us. Now touching these men and their dealings I purpose not in particular to show how ungodly, & unjustly they have dealt against us: not only contrary to all piety, but against all modesty, in laying open the infirmities & transgressions of some (whose repentance is known even to these reprochers themselves, as it was to the whole Church) also in shameless publishing of some things never heard of in our Church, nor so much as known to the parties whon they mention; besides their uttering of some things also very false and untrue. And that so, as the writing itself in the cares and judgement of the wise doth sufficiently convince the Authors of abundance of malice, & argues in them want of grace, & of the fear of God, (a just judgement of God upon them that have walked haltingly before God in his Church, and have wilfully refused to hear the voice of Christ jesus in the same) that have so spitefully & sclanderously written against this Church, against the Pastor and other Officers & members thereof, & have thus with their bitter venomous tongues smitten them, whom the Lord doth accept, and to whom (I trust) he will requite good for this their cursing: as David in a like case did comfort himself. 2 Sam. 16. 7-12. And touching our forbearing now to answer their writing being such as it is, it may suffice that we have showed heretofore, concerning the like writing of Thomas Whites, that we can & have answered such shameless writings, lest such fools should be wise in their own conceits: Prov. 26, 5. and so might do by this book, for the reproaches and slanders therein contained, as we did by that other: but it seems partly not so needful, seeing the same things and the like are now published by these, that were then also by Thomas White (whereunto answer was given) partly not meet or good to follow these wicked men in their ungodly courses: but to observe that other proverb of salomon's, which saith, Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like him: Prov. 26.4. as also to leave them and their dealings to the judgement of the Lord, & to the censure of all godly & indifferent men, to judge whether they would justify any amongst them, that should so carry themselves, as to publish to the world, the slips and sins of the particular persons of their societies. For if men should take this course, as these have done, what volumes might not be written of the faults & sins of particular Churches? Is there any society or company to be found on earth, that if any would make a diary of their lives (yea even of them that are religious and godly) but there would be found many things amiss amog them? and yet no grace to any of such a company, (especially in such a spiteful manner) to commit such personal sins to print? Let these men take a like survaie of such societies or Churches, that they are withal, and see if they can not find as many, yea (if they would not be partial) a great many more vices and other manner transgressions, then with all their slanders they are able to charge this Church withal. And will not any then, judge these men in this their doing, to have showed great malice and partiality: and that not the spirit of God, but Satan (that enemy to Michael & his Angels) hath set them on work to reproach the truth itself, by this their vile dealing? Or would themselves take it in good part, if we should lay open their own personal sins, which we know by them, both many and great? What have they then done to us, or how have they kept herein that rule of Christ, which saith, Whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye unto them. Mat. 7.12. But being sorry to see them thus add more sin to their former sins, for which they were excommunicate, I will leave them for the Lords censure to work upon them, if so it please God, for the saving of their souls in the day of the Lord jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 5.4.5. And here by this occasion, we will speak a little concerning God's work, about two others, who have heretofore written against this poor Church, and against the Pastor and members thereof, as now these have done. The one was George jobnson the pastors brother, who died at Durham: the manner of whose sickness and death was signified hither to his brother by writing from thence, by a friend of his that was often with him, both before & in the time of his sickness: Who written hither, that he being in prison, bestowed the most of his time, in finishing the book which before he had begun, and whereof some sheets are printed; which when he had done, it pleased God to visit him with sickness unto death. At which time on his death bed, he gave out (as he written, & is well known) very heavy & great exclamations about his sins by the Lord laid to his charge, calling unto God for mercy. And in this sort (saith the Gentleman that writ the letter, & was present there) he continued by the space of an hour that I was with him, showing great trouble in mind, yet not without comfort in the Lord, whose servant I doubt not but he died. The words uttered by him, and other circumstances mentioned in the Letter aforesaid, we spare yet to set down: as we would also still have done the thing itself, but that we are thus continually provoked hereunto, and that we hope it will be for the good of others, to stay them from such courses: and above all to the glory of God, which is to be observed and acknowledged in all his works. And whereas it is so often objected, by M. Bernard, M. Hall, M. White, Christopher Lawn and others, that the Pastor's brother was excommunicated among us, and his father also, it is to be noted, that yet never a one of them hath undertaken to show the causes to be unjust, or the thing unlawful. Nay when Mr. White made it one head of his book, to except what he could about the excommunications that had passed in this Church, and written of sundry persons & their causes in particular: yet it may be observed, that he doth not so much as once offer to insist upon theirs: which of all others no doubt he would most of all have done, if he had thought he could have made any plea thereabout. And who will not consider, that such as would thus blame the excommunicating of any persons, should first be able and careful to show the causes thereof and the proceeding against them, to be unjust? For otherwise, if they be just and lawful, so as none can except thereagainst, it is the more godly, and commendable (though accompanied with greater trial) when neither father nor mother, brother nor sister, son nor daughter are spared. As in the Scriptures we read, how Moses commended and God blessed Levi, for not knowing his own father or mother, brethren or children, but observed the word of God, and did his will against them, though it were to the inflicting of death upon them: Deut. 33.8.9. with Exod. 32. 26-29. Either therefore let men by the word of God disprove the causes and proceeding in the excommunications they except against at any time: or else being not able so to do, the more they write against us, the more it maketh for us in deed; and so will be observed by them that are wise according to godliness. Besides, seeing the parties here spoken of are now departed this life, if M. johnson should write any thing about them, by which they should now be found blame worthy: who can not perceive, that this then also would be abused against him, and that men would not stick to say, that now he might speak what he would of them, when they were not living to answer for themselves; and that although they were now dead, & so near unto him as they were, yet he would write thus and thus of them, etc. For they that spare not so to abuse him as now they do, even about things publicly heard and known, whereof there are so many witnesses yet living: how would they much more abuse any thing that he should now say or write concerning them, when they are gone and departed this life? They that observe how he and the rest of us are dealt withal, will consider these things. And it shall be good for him and us all, to possess our souls with patience, & to wait on the Lord, trusting in his mercy, making our refuge in the shadow of his wings, till our calamities be overpast, and that it please the Lord to save us from the reproach of them that would swallow us up. For doubtless God will send forth his mercy and his truth: as he hath hitherto graciously delivered our souls from death, & our feet from falling: that we may walk before him in the light of the living. Psal. 57 The other that written in like sort, as these have done, was Thomas White spoken off before, who after his living here, and writing so ungodly as he did, returned and lived a Minister at London under the Prelates: where when he had after some while gotten a benefice in such sort as he did, the Lord soon ended his days. These things I thought thus briefly to mention, being (it may be) of some not regarded as they should. And how ever the Lord spare such men, & let them go on in their course a while, yet in the end if they repent not, his hand will find them out, and bring their ways upon their own heads: as throughout the Scriptures we may read. Psal. 52. & 55. 12.13.14.15-23. But now omitting to write any thing more of them, that have thus dealt with us, & leaving them to the Lord: I will proceed to the next and last special matter, which at this time I purpose to speak of. And that is about the persons (spoken of in this last book) who of late divided themselves from us, and have since that time given forth some exceptions and Articles of difference, both here at Amsterdam and otherwhere. Here they gave out some which we heard of, but never had copy of them, until now that these men have printed them, being taken (as they say) from the original copy. Otherwise also they have given out the like, in letters sent into England, as we have heard, & by means of one there, to whom they sent had certain knowledge thereof: who dealt more godly and indifferently thereabout, than any other of them, that have in such sort been possessed and praejudiced against us. And as that party dealt well with us, in acquainting us with those things, which thus covertly were written & given out against us: so did we also for his better satisfying write unto him again in particular thereabout. The which both Articles and Answeres thereunto, we have thought good to keep them by ourselves hitherto. But seeing that other the like in effect, though increased in number, are thus published to the world, and that therein they have not as they ought, handled & levied the causes for which they separated from us (which were annexed at the end of the treatise upon Mat. 18.17. and shall also be again annexed here, but have gone about also to possess the world with other matters, than those for which they made their breach: and by these their courses, do impute blame unto our doctrine, as if we maintained opinions contrary to the truth, labouring thereby to set a more glorious show upon their popular government and plead: and that thereby we perceive, the truth is much hindered, and we injuried, and many by their means and opinions so deceived, that they despise the holy government of Christ, which he hath set in his Church to be administered by the Elders thereof, & refuse to submit thereunto: and that not only they who have thus written & dealt here, but others also in our own country, praejudiced with these matters, and sinisterly possessed with some of their writings, against us and our cause, are likewise corrupted, and so have showed it, both when occasionally some of us have been with them there, and also among themselves, as we hear: we have therefore for these and other the like reasons thought it good, not to keep these things any longer private by us, but for the better satisfying of all, touching the things we hold, and the clearing of ourselves from the imputations laid upon us hereabout, and removing the scandal which some have taken & are like yet more to take upon the publishing of this writing of theirs: now therefore to print also the said Answer to their exceptions, that men may see, and be able the better to judge bentween us & them, when they shall have heard both of us speak, & shall have aswell our answers as their objections to read and consider of by the word of God. And though it have thus fallen out between us and our brethren, & they grown to that height, that they would not be persuaded to continue with us in communion; wise men will consider, it is but an ancient practice of Satan thus to disquiet and trouble the Church of God. In the Church at Corinth were contentions and dissensions raised up amongst the brethren, so that some held of one Teacher, some of an other 1 Cor. 1. 10-12. And afterwards what contention grew between the eastern and western Churches about the time of keeping the feast of Easter, none can be ignorant that hath read thereabout the ancient histories. Also what fell out between our own countrymen at Franckfurt in the days of Q. Marry, (they being then in exile for the truth, as now we are) their troubles and contentions are extant in print thereabout. Yea our Saviour himself saith, it must needs be that offences come, Mat. 18.7. And the Apostle saith, there must be schisms and heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest. 1 Cor. 11.18.19. Now seeing the like troubles, divisions and disagreements have fallen out in former times in the Churches of God, and that men have their infirmities (though otherwise being religious and fearing God) they which are of a spiritual discerning, will not upon every occasion that ariseth amongst the professors of Christ, by reason of their weaknesses, and personal sins and infirmities, open their mouths to speak evil of the way of God, though some take pleasure therein, who shall find one day the avenging hand of God upon them, if they repent not. And touching these persons aforesaid, that have so separated from us, and thus offensively written, I persuade myself, that many of them, are persuaded (though deceived by the subtlety of Satan) that they have the truth, and that they did run at the first into these extremities, being carried (as the Anabaptists and others also have been) with a zeal for the truth & glory of God against that Antichristian Apostasy & government, which formerly the Prelates & ministers of that usurped authority oppressed them withal. And for mine own part, I hope that so many of them as are the Lords elect, he will in time (by the means used for their good) give them to see, both their errors they stand in, & their grievous sin, in so rashly and unjustly breaking off themselves from the Church whereof they stood members, & that others by their example will take heed of the like hereafter. These things I thus write, not to excuse evil in any, but to take away occasion from them that seek occasion to raise up slander against the cause of God, by reason of these things thus falling out amongst us: and that men should know, that the way of God hangeth not upon the lives of men; but is to be regarded in respect of the Lord the author thereof. Very evil therefore do they, that take occasion upon such dissensions, to blaspheme the truth itself. The erroneous walking of any professors, shall not excuse others, that embolden themselves thereby to stand in Apostasy, and seek not after the truth and way of God, that Christ hath commanded all to walk in. Thus having (good Reader) prefixed this short advertisement, for thy better information about the things aforesaid, as also about this my purpose in setting forth of this Answer to the Objections aforesaid: receive now the Answer itself, as it was penned by the writer thereof, with some additions thereunto by the same author, upon occasion of inlargeing and publishing of the said Exceptions now printed. This answer I pray thee (Christian Reader) view and consider well, that if it be the will of God, thou mayest be satisfied of the truth we hold about these things. And if in any thing we fail hereabout through ignorance, and want of understanding, we shall willingly receive, and that with thanks, thy brotherly advertisement thereof. And because among other things, we are much abused about a particular concerning the Church of Rome, we have therefore hereunto annexed somewhat out of the writings of M. junius against Bellarmine, about that matter; not that we rely upon the judgement of men in causes of Religion, but because we know that many, who are carried with a prejudice against us, will yet more stay them, when they see what M. junius hath written of that argument. In whose writing although there be some school terms, hard to be englished well in our tongue, for the understanding of all, as we desire, yet we have so done it into english, as we hope the meaning thereof will by all be conceived and attained unto. And thus leaving these ●hings with the event thereof unto the Lord, & his good blessing of his mercy in Christ: I humbly beseech the most wise God, to cause the light of his heavenly word to shine forth more and more, for the discovering of all error and false opinions & courses hindering the success of the ancient truth, and so to establish the Churches of God, in that old and good way, prescribed by the Lord and his Apostles and Prophets. Amen. A COPY OF THE writing, touching the division made among us, which was sent to a friend in England, By Mr. H. A. BEcause you have heard of the sorrows that have befallen us here, M. Ains. Letter. whereby your grief is the more augmented, and because the true report & estate of things perhaps is not so well known unto you, I will also briefly touch the smart wherewith God hath humbled us, & caused our breach to be as the sea, which can not be cured. Many days of comfort God gave us here together, whilst in singleness of heart we sought him, in the mids of our pilgrimage with love & peace: But love of pre-eminence, which hath always troubled the Church of Christ, hath also troubled us: whilst the Governors of the Church which should serve it with meekness, would rule it with Lordship. 1. Confess. artic. 24. Apol. pag 26.63. 1 For whereas we had learned and professed, that Christ hath given the power to receive in or to cut off any member, to the whole body together of every Congregation, & not to any one or more members sequestered from the whole: Now we have been lately taught, that the Church which Christ sendeth to, for the redress of sins, Mat. 18.17. is not to be understood of the whole body of the Congregation, but of the Church of Elders. And it being granted of all, that with the Church is the power, the Elders being the Church, have the power, and so not the whole body of the congregation together. 2 We had learned, 2. Tre●●. of the ministery of Eng. pag. 63. Apol. pag. 63. that every true Church of Christ, hath this power to cast out obstinate sinners from amongst them, and this not only when it hath Officers, but also when it wanteth them: But wow we were taught, that a people without Officers have not power to cast out obstinate sinners. Which doctrine, amongst other evils, overthroweth the constitution of the Church that so taught: for it was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers, receiving in the repentant, and casting out the disobedient: whereas by this opinion, they had power from Christ to do neither: for they that can not cast out, can not receive in: one power is for both. 3 We had learned that every Christian Congregation hath power and commandment to elect & ordain their own ministery, according to the rules of God's word, 3. Confess. art. 23. & 35. Apol. pag. 46. and upon such default in life doctrine or administration, as by the rule of the word depriveth them of the ministery, by due order to depose them from their ministery they exercised, yea if the case so require, orderly to cut them off by excommunication: But now it is by some maintained, that the Congregation can neither put into office nor put out of office, unless they have officers to do both: and can neither for heresy nor other wickedness excommunicate or depose their Eldership. 4 We had learned that none may execute a ministery, 4. Confess. art. 21. but such as are rightly called by the Church, whereof they stand ministers, unto such offices, and in such manner, as God hath prescribed in his word: But now those will execute a ministery, which have not rightly been called by the Church, whereof they stand Ministers, according to their own account and doctrine: which hold (as before) that a people without Officers have no warrant from God to make or depose Ministers. 5 We had learned that it was gross error and notorious absurdity, 5. Apol. p. 113. & 116 n. 112. either to hold the popish Church to be a true Church, having a true ministery, and true Sacraments, or else that men must admit of rebaptising: But now we have heard, that the Baptism of the Popish Church is true Baptism (by which we are bound to communion) or else that men must be rebaptized: and that the Church of Rome is the Church of God, because Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. 6 We had learned that all particular Congregations are by all means convenient to have the counsel and help one of 6. Conf. art. 38. another, in all needful affairs of the Church, as members of one body in the common faith: yet here when differences had arisen about our common faith, and could not amongst ourselves be composed, they would not desire nor consent to have desired the help of our sister Church at Leyden, although it were instantly urged by many members, that their assistance should be had. And when without their consent the help of that Church was obtained, & they laboured our peace, & a way of peace was agreed off between the Churches, this agreement and peace was not stood unto but reversed by them, contrary to our will, & to the will and liking of the Church at Leyden, as the same Church can testify for us. Wherefore after long disputing these matters, when no way of peace could by us be found to continue together in the truth & holiness. But lamentable Dissipation of the Church & members began to grow, to the dishonour of God's name, & wounding of our hearts, we followed the commandment of the Apostle which said, I beseech you brethren, mark them diligently which cause divisions & offences, contrary to the doctrine which we have learned, and avoid them. Rom. 16.17. And have sithence laboured to build up ourselves in the holy faith, whereunto God hath called us, in love & peace, mourning for the great scandal and reproach which Satan hath wrought by this breach amongst us. Thus have I showed you the fountain of our sorrows, which God for our sins hath brought upon us. He look upon us in mercy, & pity the dispersion of Zion. And you as you have known the truth, which is sealed to your conscience, so abide therein faithful unto the end, knowing it is the lot of God's people thus to be exercised with troubles in itself, which if we bear with patience and constansie & do overcome, our portion shall be in the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. H. A. THE ARTICLES AND OBJECTIONS About the division, which are published in Lawns discovery of schism, page 79. etc. THe 23 article of the Confession of our faith (whereto also our Apology agreeth, page 46.47.) professeth that every Christian congregation hath power to elect & ordain their own ministery, etc. & upon desert again to depose, yea & excommunicate them. These have defended that a Congregation without Ministers can not ordain officers. And that if the Eldership fall into heresy or wickedness, the whole Congregation cannot depose nor excommunicate them. And that a Congregation, without an Eldership, cannot excommunicate any wicked person whatsoever. 2. The 24 article (confirmed in our Apology, page 60.62.63.) professeth that the power to receive in, or to cut off any member, is given to the whole body together of every Christian Congregation, Mat. 18.17. etc. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church, Mat. 18. & to have both rightful power and able power to excommunicate, though without & against the consent of the body of the Congregation. 3. The 29 article (as also our Apology page 51.52.) professeth that the Hierarchy of Archbishops, Lordbishoppes, Priests, etc. are a strange and Antichristian ministery & Officers, not instituted by Christ's Testament, nor placed in or over his Church. These have placed over them one that was made Priest by a Lordbishops' ordination, so as because of it they did not ordain or impose hands on him, when at the same time they ordained and imposed hands on others, whom together with him they set over the Church. 4. The 31 article (and also our Apology, page 109.) professeth that such ecclesiastical assemblies as remain so in confusion & bondage under that Antichristian ministery, Courts, Canons, &c. cannot be esteemed true visible Churches, etc. These now plead not only for them, but for Rome itself, to be the true Church of God. 5. The 32 article (whereto our Apology agreeth, page 52.53.54.) testifieth that all such as have received any of those false Offices (of Lordbishops, Priests, etc.) are to give over and leave them: and so hath it been practised here before by all such Priests as came to our faith & Church: now one is Minister over them, ordained Priest by the Prelates, as is before said. 6. The 33 article (which our Apology also confirmeth, page 45.) professeth that people being come forth of the Antichristian estate, etc. are willngly to join together in Christian communion and orderly covenant, & to unite themselves into peculiar and visible congregations, etc. These have pleaded that all are bound to communion, by virtue of their baptism received in the Church of Rome, or other Antichristian assemblies. 7. The 35 article (confirmed also in our Apology, page 46.47.48.) professeth that a people so joined together, may proceed to choice & ordination of Officers, etc. Now these plead, that the people may not proceed to ordination of Officers, except they have Officers before to do it. 8. In our Apology, page 113, it was maintained to be gross error, and notorious absurdity, either to hold the Popish Church to be a true Church, having a true ministery and true Sacraments; or else that men are unbaptized, & must admit of the Anabaptists rebaptisation. These have themselves, much objected to us, that either the Church and Baptism of Rome is true, or else we must be rebaptised: Both which we still deny. 9 The 38 article of our Confession, professeth that Congregations are by all means convenient to have the counsel & help one of another in all needful affairs, etc. The practice of this was was denied, when in our greatest need & trouble they would not consent to have the counsel & help of the English Church at Leyden, which professeth the same faith with us. 1. Before our parting, we offered, that notwithstanding our differences of judgement, that we would continue together, if our former practice might be retained: but this was refused. 2. We desired that then we might have a peaceable parting: and to be two distinct Congregations, each practising, as they were persuaded, yet nourishing brotherly love and unity: This also they would not agree to, unless we would leave this city. 3. We procured, though without their consent, the help of the English Church at Leyden, who laboured our peace: a way of peace by these themselves propounded, & by the Church of Leyden & us agreed to, these after reversed, & stood not unto, unless we would go devil out of this City. And although in the treaty of the Agreement it was testified by the Elders of that Church, that unless it were to the apparent undoing of us, and of our families, we should not be dismissed again to dwell here: yet because we would not absolutely promise to leave this City, they would not stand to the agreement which themselves had mad●. THese are the Articles & Objections, that are in the printed copy aforesaid. Which therefore we had not thought to have printed again. But when we had finished this book, we received out of England from another friend, another of M. A. his letters sent thither, wherein these also are set down, in this manner & order, and in the same words, with very little alteration thereof. We considered also that in the Answer here following, there is often reference made to the printed copy of these Articles and Exceptions: and that therefore it would be good for the Reader, to have them here ready at hand. Whereupon we thought it not amiss to print them again, and to advertise those that have the books, to insert them between C. & D. if it be not already done to their hands. Now followeth the Answer: which was first made to the former letter, according to the six particulars thereof: but is since enlarged by reason of this printed copy aforesaid. Concerning which also we could note & answer more and other things then now we have done in this shortness of time. As, about some special respects & uses in some cases to be had of the Fathers of families, or of the chiefest & fittest of them: (as upon occasion some of us spoke in the reasoning had among us): Also, that whereas they would seem (in their letters & exceptions) as if they had desired peace and accord with us, yet besides all the things noted hereafter about their dealing, Pag. 74.75. etc. this also is remembered, that when we were treating of some way of accord, some of them publicly said, they would never yield thereunto, unless we would revoke our agreement about the understanding of Mat. 18.17. and that also as an error. Which we could not yield unto: as may be perceived by the agreement itself, which is hereafter set down, page 95.96. etc. But omitting now to speak any further of these or other things, that might also be noted about their objections and dealing: we will for the present only desire the Reader (about the particulars) still to remember that which sometimes we have mentioned here, Pag. 44. & 45. etc. that extraordinary cases must have their warrant accordingly, & that the things concerning a people without officers were left to further consideration among us, & needed not by us now be stood upon, seeing our estate & question was of the ordinary government of a Church established with Officers. For which also see the Treatise on Mat. 18.17. toward the end thereof. And now read the answer of the foresaid letters and objections, as here it followeth. AN ANSWER TO the writing and exceptions aforesaid sent to the same party, by Mr. Fr. Io. Whereunto he hath also added some things more, upon occasion of the other copy lately printed. touching them that have divided themselves from us, and M. A. writing unto you thereabout, there are diverse things of weight which you should do well carefully to observe. And first how they having left us upon two particular matters (concerning the Church's government, and the exposition of Mat. 18.17.) they do not directly keep unto them, as they ought: neither answer the things printed thereabout, so long since. Whereunto both we, and all that love the truth, and desire their conversion, must be careful to keep & hold them. And even by this their dealing it may appear, how needful that our publication of the matter was, both for manifestation of the truth held by us, & for meeting with their clamours, and all their disorderly and unapproveable courses, so much affected by them. Secondly, it must be remembered, that our profession alway hath been, and must be, to have the word of God for our direction in all things; by it to try all things, to keep that which is good; and to refuse and redress whatsoever is evil, or any way erring therefrom: (For which see the preface of our Confession at the end of it: And in the Apology pag. 13. & 41: as also the Answer to Thomas White, pag. 36.) So as there is no weight in it to say, Thus we held heretofore; & now we hold thus: unless it could be showed, that it is against the word of God, that which now is held by us. Nay seeing the faith of this Church, is that only which is grounded upon the word of God, in the writings of the Prophets & Apostles; & so our faith is the common & ancient faith, which was held by Israel of old, & by the Primitive churches since the coming of Christ, it followeth there upon, that wherein so ever we have swerved in faith or practise therefrom, it hath been our aberration, & not our faith indeed. Thirdly, concerning the special particular in question, our ancient profession hath been, Cons. a●t. 17. & 19 that the Church is to be governed only by those laws and Officers, that the Lord hath appointed in his word, and by none other. From which howsoever we have erred in our practice, yet this is our ancient faith: so as that which now we do, is to retain our euncient faith, & to reform our practice according thereunto, as we are bound daily to grow in grace and in obedience of the faith. And for our practice also, if we would insist upon it, our ancient practice itself was otherwise, then as lately of a few years it had been: which later course the people that are departed from us would have had us to retain. And so they themselves would have had us kept a later, and leave our ancienter practice. Thus much also we written to Leyden before the division was made, & then Mr. Ainsw. himself subscribed unto it. Fourthly, observe in their exceptions against us, if they be not (almost all of them) such as the Anabaptists would object in much like manner. And a weak cause it must needs be, that relies upon the Anabaptists, or any other erroneous grouds. How much better had they done, if they had considered with themselves) that when Christ himself taught doctrine which was not only sound & true, but evident also & comfortable to such as could understand it aright, yet many of his disciples when they heard it, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it? & so both murmured at it, & were so offended with it, as they went back, & walked no more with him: joh. 6.60.62.66. Or if they had regarded that which M. Ains. hath well observed (in his Arrow pag. 4. against Idolatry) that Satan hath separated men from the Church, as by other means, 1 King. 12.27, 28.29 Jude v. 19 Heb. 10.25. so also by causing them to withdraw and schism themselves for some pretended cause or quarrel, as did the Israelites, & others after them etc. Fiftly if we should set ourselves to make exceptions against them, as they have done against us: we could sand & spread our private letters (as they do) accompanied with more sound & better observations against than, touching such things as have passed among us. As for example, a little to imitate & resemble their veyn of writing, thus: Many troublesome days & full of contention hath God exercised us here together withal, while we could not be brought in singleness of heart, with humility to obey the governors, & observe the government prescribed in his word, & to seek him in the midst of our pilgrimage with love & peace. For love of pre-eminence which hath always troubled the church, hath also troubled us, while the people that should be under the Governors, would be over & above them, etc. For 1. whereas we had learned & professed that Christ was the only king & Lord of his Church, Conf. art. 10, 17.19.20. Conterp. pag. 175.176. and in other Treatises every where as Defen. against M. Sm. p. 126 127.128. & had left unto it among men but a ministerial government, & that all the multitude of the members, the saints, aught to obey & submit to the Eldership in every church: Now we have lately been taught, * In their dispute against us & in M. Rob. justif. 217.225. etc. that the people as kings have power one over another; and that the saints being kings are superior to their Officers, because the order of kings is the highest order or estate in the church: & so an order superior unto, & above the order of Officers or Eldership. Also, that the Church may in relation to the Officers being servants therein, be called a Lord etc. which things they affirm for proof of their opinion, touching the points in question betweme us about the Church's government. And whereas we have still professed, that the people were inferior and under the officers; now we have had it much urged about the question controverted, that the people are superior & above them. Thus to advance the people one over another as kings, and to make them superlours, above their Governors, and to entitle them with kingly and Lordly power in the outward policy & affairs of the Church and members thereof (whereas Christ hath given his Church no other but a ministerial power & government) what is it else, but in deed to set up such Churches & people as so many Idols? Like as Mr. Ainsw. showeth against the Prelates, Mr. A. Atrowe against Idol. pag. 19 & 20. that Idols are set up with impiety, when among men, one is set up as Head of the Church, others as Archbishops, and Lords spiritual, etc. For doth it not thus come to pass, that as the Prelates on the one hand, so the people on the other hand, do even become Idols: whiles both of them run to extremities in such advancing of themselves, & neither of them will keep or be kept in the mean, & in the ministerial way, which the Lord hath appointed in his word? Confess. art. 24. 2 We professed heretofore, that Christ gave the power of receiving in & cutting off to the whole body together of every Christian Congregation, & not to any one or most members sequestered from the whole, etc. Now we have been taught, that in cases of question and controversy, the greater part of the people are the Church, though all the Elders and other brethren be against them, and it being granted of all, that with the Church is the power, that greater part of the people (though never so erroneously carried) being the Church, they have the power, and so they may receive in and cut off, though all the Elders and other brethren (it may be but one fewer, and of much better judgement) be against it. M. Ains. Conterp. p. 177. 3. We written heretofore, that the Elders have the reins of government committed to them: Now we are taught, that the government of the Church is not Aristocratical; yea that the people as kings have the power, and the greater part, of the people (though in error) are the Church: as is noted before. And so then by their opinion will follow, that the greater part of the people, yea that all the people, being kings, have the reins in their hand; & may decide, stay, determine, and conclude all matters of controversy in the Church: though all the Elders & other brethren be against them. Cons. art. 34. Plea for infants p. 180. to 185. Contempt. pag. 177. 4 We professed heretofore that no Sacraments should be ministered until the Pastors or Teachers were chosen and ordained into their Office. Now it is hield by some, that seeing all the holy things of God are the Churches, and people without Officers are a Church, therefore they may without Officers have the use of the Sacraments and all the holy things of God: & consequently may receive in by Baptism, confirm by the Lord's Supper, cast out by excommunication etc. And in this writing sent unto you, it may be observed, how they infer that people without Officers may cast out, and therefore may receive in, there being one power for both. Conf. art. 21. Conterp. pag. 176.177. 5 We had learned that none may usurp or execute a ministery, but such as are rightly called by the Church whereof they stand ministers, unto such Offices, and in such manner, as God hath prescribed in his word: Now it is held by some, that people out of office, may execute all the works, and duties of the ministery, for Baptism, Lord's Supper, Censures etc. And these men in their second exception here write, there is one power for receiving in, & casting out, & that people without Officers may do both, as is observed before. Conf. art. 1.10, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27.34, 36. & throughout the Conf. Apol, & other of our Treatises, as Defence against Mr. Sm. pag. 10, 13, 88, etc. 6 We learned and used heretofore, to apply to our estate and use the things that the Scriptures teach concerning the Governors and people in Israel: Now we are excepted & opposed against, if we do so with these exceptions, and the like, viz. that they had civil authority and government, which the Church hath not; that they could not in Israel forgive one another's sin, as we can now: that the people now have more power, then in Israel, because now we follow Christ into heaven, And yet the people were typically carried in by the Hyepriest in the precious stones on his shoulders & breast: as the most holy place itself was a type of heaven. whereas the people might not follow the High priest into the most holy place etc. And what if any other would say, that by like reason the Elders now should have more power, than the Elders in Israel, because the Elders now follow Christ into heaven, whereas the Elders than might not follow the high priest into the most holy place? And that Kings should have more power now in religion, than the Kings of Israel, because Kings now follow Christ into heaven, whereas the Kings than might not follow the hiepriest into the most holy place: no nor so much as into the holy place, to come to the altar to offer incense. 2 Chron. 26. And note here also, that Christ and the Apostles reasoning from the civil estate of the Governors & people of Israel, & applying the things of it to the kingdom and Church of Christ, & to the Governors and people of the Church now, should (by this new learning of these men) be thought to misapply those Scriptures, and places so alleged by them. As Mat. 21.24. john 10.34. Act. 1.20. Ephes. 12.13.19.20.21. and in a number the like places. Plea for Infants p. 166.167 268, etc. Treat. against the Anabap. p, 16. etc. & some grounds tending this way in the Apol. p. 108 etc. & in Answer to M. jacob p. 7, & 13, etc. 7 We held that the Baptism of Rome was as true Baptism, as circumcision in the Apostasy of Israel was true circumcision, and needed not to be renounced and repeated: now we were taught, that the Baptism aforesaid is an Idol. And we know that all Idols, yea and all monuments of idolatry, are to be renounced and rejected. Esa. 30.22. And an Idol is nothing in the would, saith the Apostle, 1 Cor. 8, 4. so as then such baptism is nothing, & such people are an unbaptised people, & aught therefore (with the Anabaptists) to get themselves baptized. Thus if I would follow their course, you may see I could note down some doctrines and assertions, not all of the soundest, which our opposites have of late delivered and given forth: although I have hitherto held my peace there about. Neither would I yet publish them, if there were or might be hope of their repentance and amendment. but for your better information concerning them & their dealing, I have thus impar●ed them unto you. By which any may consider whether it were not high time for us to look to these persons, and to these things, when they vere come to this pass, & grown to such an height among us. Now next for answer of their exceptions sent unto you against us: though it be not so meet to be done in a private Letter, seeing we have published the causes of the division they made, whereunto they have not yet given answer: yet have I thought it not amiss, upon this occasion, and unto you (as your case stands) to write somewhat thereabout. For the first therefore, which is made by comparing together the understanding of Mat. 18, 17. with the Confession, Art. 24. and the Apol. pag. 62.63. I have already written and published a Treatise concerning the exposition of that Scripture: where also the reasons alleged in the Apology are purposely and particularly treated of: to which I refer you thereabout. And what dealing is this of theirs, that having made such a division, as they have done, they leave the Treatise unanswered, which was purposely written upon that occasion, and argument, and yet cease not privately thus to insinuate, as they do? Besides, if for their wont Phrase (the Church of Elders) they would use such terms, as otherwhere the Scriptures in our translations have, and as the word itself doth signify, namely, the Congregation of Elders, or the Assembly of Elders, or the like: then both themselves & others might sooner perceive the vanity of their error, and the light of the truth against them. Neither should they forget, how M. Ainsworth himself, in his Answer to Mr. Bernard, showeth that the word is sometime so used for the Congregation or Assembly of Elders and Governors, Mr. Ainsw. Conterpoys. pag. 113. Lastly, you may observe in the Article of our Confession here alleged, Conf. art. 24. that for the declaration and proof thereof these Scriptures among other are cited, Psal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4, 5. & 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13.9. all which do directly carry us for this matter to the Church of Israel and constitution thereof: which now (through love of their error) they would not be brought unto, for the consideration and deciding of the matter between us. Observe also hereabout, that the power of receiving in and cutting off given to the Church of Israel, was by them used and to be performed according to order, and not any way to weaken, but to 'stablish the Elders authority. And we must not be strangers from the policy of Israel, Eph. 2.12. etc. Yea this very instruction in Mat. 18.17. is such, as it accordeth with and hath reference unto the grounds and ordinances of God, taught of old by Moses & the Prophets: as is showed in particular in the Treatise aforesaid, and in the Church's agreement published there about: So as their opposition against us therein, is indeed against Israel, against Moses, & against the Prophets: And whether then it be not also consequently against the Lord and his ordinances prescribed in his word, let all indifferent men judge. Such is their error, and so great is their transgression and iniquity. And hitherto of the first Objection: which in the printed copy, is the second. Where furthermore observe, how when they do here quote the Scriptures alleged for proof of the 24 Article of the Confession, they do it thus, Mat. 18.17. etc. whereas in the Confession, it is thus, Psal. 122.3. etc. Which is to be noted in diverse respects: First, because it showeth, that at the setting down of the Confession, the Scriptures of the old testament were observed for the confirmation of it, aswell as of the new. Secondly, that Mat. 18.17. is so to be understood, as may agree with the other Scriptures, & namely with Psal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4.5. and 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13, 9 which Scriptures are in this article also alleged, and joined with that of Mat. 18.17. Thirdly, that it must be understood with agreement and proportion to the order and manner of Israel, whereof these scriptures do directly speak. Fourthly, that therefore our understanding of it now, as we do, is (in the truth of the point itself) according to our ancient saith: and not theirs who would make us strangers from Israel, and would persuade us that Christ's doctrine in Mat. 18.17. is a new rule for the Churches now, which Israel had not. And that these people therefore have in deed left the ancient faith, which thing they object unto others. Moreover by the Scriptures aforesaid joined together and compared with the estate of Israel, it doth appear (& reason itself doth teach it) that we must distinguish betweme the sentence of excommunication, and between the execution thereof: as between the sentence of death, of leprosy, or the like, and between the execution following thereupon. Now in Israel the Elders in causes of death, & the Priests in case of Leprosy, had a rightful power to give out the sentence of death and of leprosy and the like, according to the la of God, without ask the people's consent, yea and though it should have been without and against the consent of the people, whom they call here the body of the Congregation. Deu. 1.16. and 17. 8-12. and 24.8. with 2 Chron. 26. 16-20. Levit. 13. etc. And when the Elders and Priests had so pronounced the sentence according to the word of God and duty of their office then was it for the people to perform the execution accordingly: as may be seen in the Scriptures aforesaid, & many other the like. Thus also the Elders may now by virtue & duty of their Office give out the sentence of excommunication, according to the la of God, and the people should accordingly put it in execution, by avoiding the excommmunicated persons till they repent, etc. Or if any of the people can except against the Elders proceeding therein, they are to be heard: as in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18, 17. I have written heretofore. Where note further, how in that Treatise it is often mentioned (& particularly in our agreement about the understanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17.) that we should always understand and observe these things according as in Israel (in the due proportion & perpetual equity thereof): and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth appertain unto them by the word of God: but to do all things acconrding to the rules prescribed therein, etc. And here let me then ask of this people thus divided hereabout: first, whether in Israel the Lord abridged the people of their right & liberty any way, in that by his word the Elders and Priests might admonish sinners, & give sentence of death, and leprosy, and the like things, without ask or taking the people's consent thereunto. Secondly, whether the people have any more right and authority in the Church's government now, than the people of Israel had in those days: Thirdly, whether the people of Israel were not kings & priests, even a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation, aswell as the Christian people are now: Exod. 19, 5, 6. Psal. 149.1. etc. with 1 Pet. 2.9.10. Rev. 1.6. Fourthly, whether the Church's power, which the Lord hath given unto it, be not a ministerial power only? Fiftly, whether the Elders power be not ministerial under the Lord, in and for the Church, so as it is the Lords primarily, the Churches secondarily, and the Officers ministerially or instrumentally for the Lord & the Church, whose Officers they are: and that therefore there is no weight in their Objections about the Elders power, as if it were not the Churches, and that which pertaineth to the body of the Congregation: but that in deed it is the Churches, & so to be ministered by the Officers whom the Lord hath set in his Church, to minister in his name, for the Church's use and benefit: and that they which oppugn the Officers herein, do not only oppose against them, but even against the Lord, & the Church, for which they would seem so much to plead. And finally, whether the Opposites in the Church's government, as the Anabaptists in the Sacraments, would not make us aliens from the common wealth of Israel, & that so there should not be one body of them and us, one Lord over them and us, one saith of theirs and ours, etc., as the Apostle hath taught us, Ephes. 2. 12-22. and 3, 6. and 4.4. etc. Which how absurd and ungodly it were to hold, we wish they may in time well consider with themselves, afore more errors and further evils grow upon them, than yet are. Furthermore, let me also ask, why they do not here speak of themselves, (aswell as of us) what they pleaded to be the Church spoken of, Mat. 18.17. as namely, how some of them taught publicly, that it is the whole Church & Congregation, alleging to that end, Num. 15.33. & 27.2. and 35.12. as also, that Christ in this place, speaketh of the kingdom of heaven, Mat. 18.1. etc. and that therefore we are to understand it of the whole Church: How some also pleaded, that it must be understood, of men, women & children that can sorrow & rejoice with others: pressing to this purpose, that which Paul speaks of the body and parts thereof sorrowing and rejoicing one with another, 1 Cor. 12. 22-26. And furthermore how it was also affirmed, that in cases of question and controversy, the greater part of the people (though without & against all the Elders and other brethren) are the body and the Church, there spoken of, yea though they be in error, etc. And now in their exceptions pleading about it, they speak of the whole Congregation, and of the body of the Congregation, in an opposition against the Eldership: and so seem here to imply also such an understanding thereof. Touching all which, it were long to rehearse, either what reasoning we had, or what might be showed about these points. But some few things I will note thereabout. And first, if this rule befound in the book of Numbers and laws of Israel, as by the doctrine & allegations aforesaid appeareth, then is it not a new rule, first given in Mat. 18.17. as was held and urged both often and earnestly among us. Secondly, these Scriptures in the book of Numbers, speak of civil cases and government: and yet when we allege these or the like about the Elders, as they do about the people, they except against us, as if we misapplied the Scriptures, and give the Elders civil authority: which I suppose they will not give to the people, though they make such allegations about them in this question, as we do about the Elders. Num. 15.33. & 27.2. & 35.12. Thirdly, touching these Scriptures and the like, it is certain, that the sinners and pleas in Israel were brought before the Congregation of Elders to be judged by them, as may appear by these Scriptures themselves, being compared with Num. 36.2. Deut. 19.12.17. and 1.12.16. and 16.18. and 17. 8-12. Josh. 20.4.5.6. 1 Sam. 2.25. 2 Chron. 19. 5-11. Psal. 82. 1-6. Mat. 5.22. Lnk. 22.66. Act. 6.12. etc. Moreover, Num. 15.33. and 27.2. two of the Scriptures alleged, speak of the people of Israel when they were in the wilderness, where they were six hundred thousand men, beside children, Exod. 12.37. And would they have us think, that this people came together to hear examine and judge the cases of sin and question there spoken of, or that the parties there mentioned were brought or came unto all that Congregation, as they would have the causes of sin and sinners to be brought unto the whole Church and congregation among us, yea and the people to be bound to come & judge the brethren's causes, that do fall out from time to time? And for the third Scripture so alleged by them, Num. 35.12. if it be compared with Deut. 19. 4-12. it maketh the point yet more plain against themselves. For Moses speaking of one and the same matter in both those places, Num. 25.12. useth in the one place the word Congregation, & in the other the term of Elders: as if he would himself tell us, that he speaks of the Congregation of Elders. Deut. 19.12. To which end also see Josh. 20.4.5.6. where the same matter is again spoken of: & Deut. 19. 15-18. where after the treating of the former matter, he giveth a general rule for the cases that might fall out among them. And whether now we should believe Moses or them, let themselves judge. Touching the phrase of the Kingdom of heaven. Mat. 18.1. etc. Mat. 18.1. etc. howsoever many have been carried thereby to think that this is a new rule, and pertaining only to the Churches of the Gospel since Christ, and that the people now are otherwise interessed in the Church's government than they were in Israel of old: yet it is evident that the same phrase is also spoken of the state and Church of the jew, Mat. 22.2. etc. and that therefore such collections from this manner of speech are not sound. And what is there here taught by Christ, that the jews should not be careful to observe, aswell as we? Should not they be humble and harmless, as little children, and so enter into the kingdom of heaven? Mat. 18. 14. with Psal. 131.1.2. Prov. 15.33. and 16.19. and 18.12. and 25.6.7. 1 Sam. 12.3.4. Psal. 138.6. Should they not avoid giving offiences to others: & when others offended them, should they not deal with them, and show them their sin; And if they did not repent and amend, bring them to the Congregation of Elders, to be further dealt with according to their demerit; Or if they did repent, forgive them? Mat. 18. 5-22. with Lev. 19.14.16.17.18. Deut, 19. 15-19. and 21. 18-21. and 25. 5-9. with Ruth 3. 9-13. and 4. 1-13. 1 Sam. 2.25. Esa. 58.6.7. And further in the same chapter it may be observed, Mat. 18.23. etc. that Christ teaching how God requireth men to forgive one another their sins (under the similitude of a king taking account of his servants) propoundeth it by the same phrase of the kingdom of heaven. And this also is a duty which God required of the jews always, aswell as of us now. Lev. 19.18. Exod. 23, 4.5. Psal. 7.4. Act. 7, 26. And in the next chapter, Mat. 19.13.14. Christ speaking of little children that were brought unto him, saith that of such is the kingdom of heaven. Which was always true of the infants and children of the jew, as of ours now. But if any would gather hereupon, for babes and little children (as some do for the men, women, & greater children upon the like manner of speech) that therefore they are to have a hand in the Church's government, and that the causes of sin and question falling out in the church should be brought unto them (aswell as to the Elders) and they bound to be present to hear and judge all such causes arising among the brethren: I suppose the people themselves, that hold the former opinion, and make such collections to maintain it for the whole Congregation, yet would think it absurd thus to reason about the lesser children: although they be of the body of the Congregation, & that of such also is the kingdom of heaven. Again in the next chapter save one, Mat. 21.43. Matthew showeth how Christ said, that the kingdom of God should be taken from the jew, and given to (the Gentiles) a nation that should bring forth the fruits thereof. Mat. 21, 43. So as then by the doctrine of Christ himself, it is one and the same kingdom of God, under which the jew were, & we now are. The differences about some worldly ceremonial and mutable things, neither do nor can carry with them an abolition of the things spiritual moral and perpetual: Neither may we at any hand or under any pretence suffer ourselves to be made aliens from the common wealth of Israel, as is noted before. For the other Scripture, 1 Cor. 12. chap. 1 Cor. 12, chap. the Apostles purpose is not there to speak of the cases and pleas about sin, and of the manner of dealing therein (as in Mat. 18.15; 16, 17. and as our question was among us) but of the diversity and inequality of gifts & functions given by the Lord in and to his church for the help and service of all, to the building up of the mystical body of Christ. Whereupon the Apostle showeth it also by the similitude & proportion of the members of the natural body, and of the several faculties thereof: which he applieth and extendeth, even to the feeblest members, and to the least and youngest children of the Church that are but newly baptized, 1 Cor. 12. 13-22. etc. to whom yet he appointeth not the cases of sin and pleas of the other members of the church to be brought for judgement & censure, as these men hereupon would infer, and as the matter in question is about Mat. 18, 17. Moreover, the things there spoken of the body, and of the parts thereof, might likewise of old be applied to Israel according to their estate; and they were then bound accordingly to walk, as members of one and the same body, affording all help service and comfort they could one unto another. Yet this might not then, nor may not now, hinder nor pervert the ordinance of God about the Elders hearing and judging the causes of their brethren, & censuring them according to their demerit: but in deed it doth much more strongly establish it, inasmuch as the Governors are by the Lord set in the Church for that use, and so for the benefit of the whole: as also, that all the members have not gifts fit for examining of persons and deciding of cases and questions that do fall out, and yet notwithstanding are members in the body, and have otherwise their good use, being fitly employed, and must be helped of the rest as their need is, and be partakers of the gifts bestowed upon others, for their good and comfort. And yet further, this Scripture is more direct against than, in that it showeth how in the Church some have a more chief place than others, as the head, & eyes, & hands in the body: & are therefore to be respected & employed according to their gifts and place, wherein God hath set them, 1 Cor. 12.14.— 28. Which is little regarded of them, who in cases of question and controversy (where there is greatest need of most knowledge and wisdom) will then look where the greatest number of the people is (though they may be of the most simple) and will have them to be the Church, and to have the Church's power and authority to give the sentence (yea albeit that all the Elders & other brethren of better judgement, but fewer in number, be against them): as if the multitude should still be followed, & that there were no difference or inequality of gifts, of Office, or other respect at all to be had Which how far it is from the intendment of this Scripture alleged by themselves, let all that understand according to sobriety judge. And let these men if they will not be taught otherwise, 1 Cor. 12. & compare with it, rom. 12. 3-8. yet learn of their own bodies, from which the Apostle borroweth his similitude here: and there they shall see, that all the members of the body are not given or used for counsel and determination in the things that concern it (though yet they have their other profitable use): whereupon it is, that when some part of the body is hurt, the hand is not used or sought unto to see withal, nor the foot to hear, neither doth the head take them to consult and determine what to do there about: but when the head itself hath considered & determined (according to the gift & duty thereof) than it useth the help of the hand or foot or any or all the members, according as there is need and occasion. And thus have all the members their good use & service in the body, being rightly used & applied thereunto. But should now hereupon the hands or feet say, because they are not sought unto and employed to see hear & determine, as the eye, ear, and head are: that therefore they lose their right, and are not used or regarded as the members of the body should? Yet after such a manner plead the people aforesaid, that they are wronged & lose their right and liberty, if when matters of sin and question arise between brethren of the church, they be not sought unto, and bound to come together to hear and determine the cases, to examine and censure the persons so dealt withal. Nay though the Elders sit publicly to hear and judge such causes, and that it be left free for any of the people to come that will: yet they think they have injury, unless that they be called upon and bound to come together; and that they also make inquisition and censure the causes and persons dealt withal; & that the greater number of their voices (though without and against all the Elders) be taken for the Church's sentence, etc. Which in deed, what is it else but as if either the whole body should become one member, an eye, an ear, an head, or the like: or as if the foot should say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: or as if the hand should say, Because I am not employed as the eye, ear, or head, therefore I lose my right, and am not used or esteemed in the body as I ought to be? Yea what is it else, but to bring themselves into bondage (and in deed to bring an Antichristian servitude on the people in the Church) when it being left free unto them to come or not to come, yet that shall not suffice, unless they be bound thereunto, as is aforesaid, And so it shall not be enough, that the Elders by their Office are bound unto it, Rom. 12, 7, 8. 1 Thes. 5.12.13. 1 Tim. 5.17.18. and aught to have maintenance for the doing of it, and of the other duties of their Office: but the men must (without any allowance for it) leave their trades and callings, the women their houses and samilies, the children their schooling and employment, the servants their work and labour, As may come to pass in great congregations & when many cases are to be heard, etc. and must come together (though it should be day after day) to hear and judge the cases that fall out between brother and brother, according to Mat. 18.17. For by this Scripture in 1 Cor. 12. chap. they will have it understood of men, women, and children that can sorrow and rejoice with others, as before was showed. And many more things might be noted about this and the other Scriptures spoken of: but these few observations may suffice. Yet afore I proceed, let me by this occasion note two things more hereabout in general. The one, that as it often cometh to pass with heretics, schismatics & Antichristians, that the very Scriptures alleged by themselves, being searched and duly weighed, they are fit & forcible against themselves: so it is fallen out with these men in this case: as may appear by that which hath been said touching the Scriptures thus alleged by them. The other is a thing, which M. Ainsw. hath well observed about Idolatry, that it is a sin which cleaveth fast to all flesh, Arrow against Idol. ch. 2 p. 23. etc. so as the best in the world do easily fall into it, do take pleasure in it, and are hardly drawn from it: An example whereof may be seen in the people aforesaid, who being carried with the love of their error about the matter spoken of, would choose bondage afore liberty (yea and a bondage accompanied with many other evils ensuing upon men women and children) rather than they would be drawn from the error and Idol set up in their heart. But I hope their children (if not themselves) will in time grow wiser, how ever in other things it be too common, that the children remember their father's altars and Idols, as the Prophet jeremiah said of the people in his days. jer. 17.2. Let me also about the matters themselves concerning the greater part of the people, the whole Congregation, or body thereof; the men, women, and children of years; pleaded to be the Church spoken of, Mat. 18, 17. desire to know by what Scriptures they will now manifest and confirm it to such as are otherwise minded: If they speak of 1 Cor. 5, chap. (as some do) that is purposely handled in the treatise on Mat. 18.17. as also, if the women and children should in a controversy be the greater part, whether then they be the Church there spoken of; & have the Church's power and authority to excommunicate the men: and whether these persons divided not themselves from the Church, when they left us; seeing we were the greater number both of the Elders and people, whom they departed from: Also, whether the Elders be of the body of the Congregation, whereof they speak, or not (for here they seem to make an opposition between the body of the Congregation, and the Eldership): And if they be, what place they have in the body, whether a superior or inferior place: And whether in the Congregation and presence of them, the women and children have authority (by virtue of that rule, Mat. 18.17. to examine rebuke and admonish their husbands, parents, & masters, being there dealt withal for sin: seeing the Church is told; and the women and children are of the Church; and they that are of the Church there spoken of, may examine & admonish, & are to be heard & obeyed, etc. Neither let them think much, that I propound such questipns, or that I speak thus about women and children etc. For they know, that such assertions and pleading we have had from them, and that such opinions are among them. And we know, that if they answer directly to the things here and before propounded, the truth will better appear, and the controversy be sooner ended between us: And what they hold & maintain concerning these things, is needful for us still to insist upon, seeing that about the understanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17. they have so dealt and left us as they have done. Other things I will omit, that might here also have their place and use: noting this only, that it is a strange & extraordinary case, when a controversy should so stand, as all the Elders should be one way, & all the people another way. And in extraordinary cases, the course and warrant from the word of God must accordingly be had. But what is this to the ordinary manner of government in the Church, whereof the question was among us, & whereabout it was particularly mentioned at the beginning, that our reasoning should be? Lastly, what weight is there in this exception of theirs against our understanding of Mat. 18.17. more than might be against Israel of old, who could understand such speeches of the Congregation of Elders, without impeaching any liberty of the people or falling into any error against the truth? But I have spoken hereof before: and of this matter, more largely than I purposed: though yet not so largely as I might, considering the point itself, and how they have carried themselves thereabout. Now I will come to the next Objection. For the second, which concerneth excommunication by a people without officers, I have in the foresaid Treatise written particularly thereabout: Treat. on Mat. 18.17. where also I have treated purposely and largely of the place of the Apology, which they have here alleged: so as that should first have been answered, afore they had thus dealt as they have done; especially, seeing that there I desired answer & confirmation of that opinion, writing in this sort about it, Where find we in the Scriptures, that God hath thus laid upon the people without Officers to excommunicate? Where is the precept for it? Which be the examples of it? Or what are the grounds requiring and bearing it out? In the same place also I noted, that in the Scriptures we may observe not only sundry examples, showing how it hath been done by the Lord himself, and by his ministers and Officers: but also diverse ordinances & grounds directing and warranting us to do likewise. The particulars whereof see in that Treatise; with diverse other considerations and reasons thereabout. Which might have caused them either to answer us, or at least (as there is noted) to consider with themselves how the Church's excommunication can be administered by any but such as are the Lords and the Church's Officers and Overseers: and how people without Officers can challenge to themselves the ministration of this, any more than of the Sacraments, etc. And beside, you may percenive both by our church's estate, and by particular note set down in the said Treatise, that our controversy was about a Church established with Officers: and that it was before our parting agreed among us, to leave the things concerning people without Officers to further consideration. To which also I do still refer it. Only where he saith here, that our doctrine overthrows the constitution of our Church, which was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers, receiving in the repentant, and casting out the disobedient, etc. I will hereupon note a few things briefly, to show the error and weakness of their exception herein. And first (omitting what is said before) it were worth the knowing, by whom (or by what Church) the first man or first two men of this Church (whereof they speak) were received in, and by what power. Secondly, it is known and not to be forgotten, Eph. 4.4.5 1 Cor. 10.1, 2. and 12, 13. Act. 2.41.42. that by our baptism, as also by accord in the truth, we are bound to communion, in any thing lawful (as God giveth occasion & opportunity thereunto): which thing was heretofore showed unto them: though yet they have not learned it as they should. Thirdly, it is also plain and vudenyable, that to choose or give voices in election, is not a part of government, or a duty peculiar to the governors of the Church, but an interest, power, right, and liberty, that the saints and people out of Office have and should use in elections, not only at first, when they have no Officers, but always after in other elections also, even when they have Officers over them. Lastly, seeing our doctrine overthroweth not the constitution of the church of Israel afore Christ, nor of the primitive Churches after Christ, it can not therefore overthrew the constitution of our Church, or of any other, that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles & Prophets, jesus Christ himself being the head corner stone. Ephess. 2, 19, 20. By all which you may see, how vain & frivolous this their exception is. To which may be referred the first, sixth, and seventh of the Objections in the printed copy. And so touching them, observe the things spoken of here, and in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18.17. For the third, it being of much like nature with the second before, the same answer that is there given may suffice for it. Yet thus much I will acquaint you with further: that the like thing being objected here against me, and written of unto us from the church at Leyden, I gave this answer unto it: viz, that the Church may excommunicate any Officer deserving it, as well as any other member. Also that if all the Officers do jointly transgress and so persist, than the Church which did choose them, may also depose and refuse them for being their Officers any longer, & may separate themselves from them. But that the people may excommunicate all their Officers or whole Eldership together, I desired to see it showed and warranted from the word of God. This was then answered, & sent from hence in a general letter to the church at Leyden: as is known unto them, and was by Mr. Ainsw. himself also subscribed at that time, for my answer hereunto: howsoever now they speak not of it. So far as choosing reacheth (which being not an action of government, may be done by people out of office) so far also may the refusing go. And whatsoever (in extraordinary cases) is attempted further, must be approved by the word of God, that so it may be admitted. And now for the exception itself, (which is here the third, but in the printed copy is the first): note these things moreover concerning it: that the particulars of the 23 Article of our Confession here alleged, being found true in the Churches of Israel before Christ, and of the Gentiles since Christ: the exception made hereabout can not be of weight against this or any other Church established according to the word of God, as those were, but must be also against those churches withal. For which see & consider the Scriptures alleged in the Confession for confirmation thereof. And observe here also, whether it can be showed by those or any other Scriptures, that any in Israel or in the primitive Churches did ordain Officers, or depose, or excommunicate either then, or any wicked persons deserving it, but such as were Governors and Officers among them. Which scripture we have indeed thus alleged heretofore. If any insist upon Numb. 8.9.10. which of all other places is the likest, or only like to be objected, because there it is said, the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites: then note also further, that by this phrase of speech of the children of Israel, and other such speeches of the men of Israel, the tribes of Israel (and the like in the Scriptures) are the Elders of Israel often meant & understood. As for example, in another the like case, they which are called the Elders of Israel, Lev. 9.1. are in the same chapter called the children of Israel, Lev. 9.3. where the Septuagint have in both places alike, the Senate or Eldership of Israel. As also Josh. 7.23. where the Hebrew hath the children of Israel, the Greek translation hath the Elders of Israel. And very reason itself teacheth so to understand it. For otherwise how should so many hundred thousand of Israel, as then were of the people, either at once hear or do the things there spoken of? And if it be said, some did it for the rest of Israel, than I ask, first, who those some were, but the Elders, whom Israel now had. Exo. 3.16. and 4.29. Lev. 9.1. etc. and secondly, under whom they did it, but under the Lord, who set them over the people to minister & govern in his stead. Exod. 20, 12. Num. 11. 16-30. Deu. 1. 9-18. and 16.18. and 17, 12. and 19, 12.17. etc. So likewise they which are called the men of Israel, Ios. 9, 6, 7, 14. are in the same chapter called the Princes of the Congregation, Ios. 9, 15, 18, 19, 21. And they which are called the tribes of Israel, 2 Sam. 7.7. are otherwhere called the judges of Israel, 1 Chron. 17.6. In like manner, that which is sometimes said to be done by the people, Exod. 20.18, 19 1 Sam. 8.7, 10, 19, 21. is otherwhere said to be done by the Elders Deut. 5.23. 1 Sam. 8, 4. In which places & actions common reason also teacheth so to understand the speeches, as was showed before. And in like sort may be observed, how the word Church or Congregation is diverse times used for the Assembly or Congregation of Elders, Num. 35, 12, 24, 25, 29. with Deut. 19, 11.13.16.17. and 31.28.30. Josh. 20.4.5.6. Psal. 82.1. 1 Chron. 29.1.6. with 28.1. etc. as is noted in the other Treatise on Mat. 18.17. And many such synechdochical speeches (where the name of the whole is given to a part) may be observed in the Scriptures. Which while men will needs understand, according to the letter, they grow into many errors, some one way, some another, as others also do in other things, mistaking figurative speeches, as if they were spoken and should be understood literally. And thus much I thought to write further hereabout: And this also, that they should better observe the clauses particularly expressed in the article spoken of, Conf. art. 23. as namely that the electing and ordaining of the Officers is to be according to the rules in God's word prescribed, that deposition likewise is to be by due order, and that the cutting off by excommunication must be done orderly. Which clauses as they bind us to show by the Scriptures, that the people not being in office may choose their Officers, as is proved both there, and in the Apology here cited, pag. 46.47. so do they also bind these persons thus making exception, to show out of the word of God, like rules, practice, or warrant, of ordination, deposition, and excommunication, ministered and performed by people out of office. Which till they do, what weight or use is there of their exceptions, save that it turns to be a means for the truth to be better found out, and more cleared from time to tyme. For the fourth, it is of like nature with the second and third herebefore: where therefore see the answers. And if they would here imply a particular matter concerning one of our Ministers, about imposition of hands: that is a point also left to further consideration among us: beside that it fell out since their departing from us: and therefore perteynes not to the plea about their division, which was made before. Yet notwithstanding the answer which follows here to their fift and next exception, will both give some light to the point itself, and show good reason of the needful discussing thereof: which you shall do well therefore to consider of as followeth. But first (by occasion of that which is printed) I will here annex a little more. For now they do in particular express this matter, concerning one that was minister in the Church of England, and is since chosen Teacher of this Church, and received among us, without any new imposition of hands. So now refer hither to this Objection, the third and fift in the copy that is printed. Touching which, let me first signify that our testimony against the Antichristian hierarchy of the man of sin, treated of in the Confession, is not by us reversed or weakened any way, but now is rather more sound and stronger also, than it was hitherto, inasmuch as it is more firmly grounded, not only against the apostasy of Antichrist, but also against the errors & confusion of the Anabaptists: whereabout we have been encumbered, not a little. For the Anabaptists holding that Antichrist had utterly destroyed all God's ordinances, so that there was not so much as true Baptism retained and had among them, thereupon they began to baptize themselves again. Whose errors while we confuted (as by our books published thereabout may appear): and while some of them objected, that we should no more retain the Baptism, than the ministery there received: we had thereupon just occasion given us to consider thereof. And so weighing with ourselves, that one main and special reason against rebaptisation is, because Baptism is an ordinance of God, which was had in the Church of Rome, before she fell into apostasy, and hath been there continued ever since the Apostles times (however it be commingled among them with many corruptions & inventions of their own) we began to consider, whether the like might not be observed and said concerning Imposition of hands, that it was had from the Apostles in the Church of Rome before her apostasy, & is there continued to this day; though mixed with many pollutions and devises of their own. And entering into consideration thereof, we observed these things among other about it. 1. That Imposition of hands is of God, and not an invention of man, not a post or threshold first brought by Antichrist into the Temple of God, but had therein afore Antichrist sat there. 2. That baptism and imposition of hands are joined together, among the principles of the foundation spoken of, Heb. 6, 2. which we thought therefore should in this behalf be well regarded. 3. That imposition of hands is in the Church of Rome still given to the Office of ministery, & in the name of the Lord: as they do also still administer baptism. 4. That we found not either precept, example or ground in the Scripture, binding us to the repetition thereof. 5. That the Priests & Levites in Israel becoming unclean, when afterwards they were cleansed, retained still their places of being Priests and Levites: And that the children of the Priests and Levites succeeding after them, did minister without a new anointing or new imposition of hands: Yea that in the case of Idolatry, the Levites repenting kept their function, & the Priests also, being only debarred from the altar, but still remaining Priests, both doing such duties and enjoying such benefits thereof, as the other Israelites might not, no nor the Levites, but in cases of necessity. Levit. 22. 1-9. and Ezech. 44. 10-14. 2 King. 23.9. with Lev. 21. and 24, 9 Mat. 12, 4.6. That in the Scriptures wefinde, how some Officers were admitted with it, & some without it. As about the Levites may be observed: and about the Apostles also, that Paul and Barnabas had imposition of hands, which we read not that the other Apostles had. Act. 13, 1, 2, 3.7. That some Churches hold it not of necessity to be had: That the Church of Scotland (as we hear) doth not use it at all, but in stead thereof give the right hand of fellowship: That the first ministers and officers of the Dutch and French reform Churches had no imposition of hands; because at their first coming into order, they had no Elders to impose hands: That the ruling Elders and Deacons at this day have no imposition of hands among them, as we understand: That neither the apostate nor the reformed Churches repeat it to the ministers, when they go from one Congregation to another among them. 8. And it may also be observed, that thus we show the keeping of communion with all other Christians & Churches, what in us is: as we do also by retaining our baptism, and any other truths & ordinances of God had among them: which still we keep, purging them only from the corruptions wherewith they are defiled among them. Now when upon our occasions, diverse things hereabout were observed among us, we thought it best to stay and consider further thereof; knowing that if we find it to be such as ought to be done, we can do it at any time: or if it be otherwise, that then this course which we took is the best. Other reasons we considered also on the other hand, which I need not here mention. But seeing we found that it was even from the Apostles times in the church of Rome long before she became apostate, as baptism was; and that the repeating of it among us, and not regarding the having of it there, is a means to strengthen the Anabaptists in their errors; and observing withal such considerations about it, as are here before related, we stayed ourselves: and rested in this, that the Church did choose him into office; and that we did by prayer commend him unto God for his grace and assistance in the ministration thereof: Which we did without imposition of hands at that time: as both ourselves had before done, at our first growing into order; and as the French and Dutch Churches also did, when they first began reformation among them. Whereabout if any sounder and better course be showed hereafter at any time, we can then proceed further, as there shall be cause. In the mean time, let it here be observed, how these that thus object, and their partakers, can (all of them) hold that the people having no office may excommunicate; and (some of them) that they may also minister the Sacraments: and yet can except against such as are in office, if they do but make question of a ceremony or any thing thereabout. And lastly, let themselves consider, how the Anabaptists object against us, that we receive such for members of our Church, as were baptised by the Prelates and Priests in apostate Churches: so as because of it we baptize them not again, when at the same time we baptize others that were never baptised before: And also, that the leaving & repenting of all the corruptions and apostasy among them, will not satisfy the Anabaptists, unless we leave also the baptism itself, and hold with them that there is not so much as one post or threshold of Gods remaining in the apostate Church; as some also of these that thus except against us, have not stuck to affirm. They that are wise and unpartial, will carefully consider and regard these things, though these men themselves cannot yet be brought so to do. And now I will proceed to the next objection. For the fift, with which the fourth and eight in the printed copy do agree, it was in deed said, that the baptism of the Church of Rome is true baptism. And so it is, as the circumcision in Israel's apostasy was true circumcision, and not to be repeated again. And if it be not a true baptism, it is a false baptism: And false baptism is not God's baptism, nor God's ordinance. For God is the author of truth, not of falsehood. Moreover a true baptism are we bound to have, when we have the means to attain it. Else the neglect thereof is sin. Wherhfore they that hold it not to be true baptism, must become Anabaptists, and be rebaptized. Which thing let them well look unto. And seeing (in the printed copy) they say, they do still deny it to be true baptism, I will here therefore insist upon it somewhat more. And first, it must be remembered, that when I said, the Baptism of the Church of Rome is true baptism, they did not only deny it so to be (which alone they speak of here) but affirmed it also to be an Idol: whereof here they speak not at all. Note also, that our speech was and is, of the outward baptism in the Church not of the inward baptism of the holy Ghost, which is & may be either with or without the outward baptism; & whereof none will offer to say, that it is not true baptism, or that it is an Idol, as was said of the other. Now therefore upon their opinions and assertions, I reason further thus: If the Baptism had in the Church of Rome, be not true baptism, than it is not the Lords baptism, ordained by him in his Church: And if it be not that baptism of the Lords, then they which have no other but it, should not in that estate eat the Lords supper, but should get the Lords baptism, afore they come to the Lords table. For as in Israel none might eat of the Lords , that had not the Lords circumcision; so now may none eat the Lords supper, that have not the Lords baptism. Exod. 12, 48. Act. 2, 41, 42. 1 Cor. 10, 14. with Act. 18.8. and 1 Cor. 11.26. And so by this doctrine & opinion of theirs, as often as they come to the Lords table in that estate, they pollute and profane it, and eat and drink judgement to themselves: and therefore had need betimes to look unto it, and to examine and judge themselves hereabout, lest they be judged of the lord 1 Cor. 11.28. &. Again, there is but one baptism, as there is but one body, one spirit, one hope of our calling, one faith, one God and Father of all, etc. Ephes. 4.4.5.6. 1 Cor. 12.13. Now the baptism had in the Church of Rome, either is that one baptism, or is not it. If it be that one, than it is true baptism, without all question: If it be not, than they which have no other but it, have not that one baptism, spoken of by the Apostle in the Scriptures aforesaid: and therefore must get it, not only afore they may come to the Lords table, as is aforesaid, but also that they may have the comfort of this one baptism, & the true outward seal of God's covenant, to confirm unto them that they are baptised into that one body; partakers of that one spirit; heirs of that one hope of eternal life; under that one Lord, in that one faith, the children of that one God and father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in us all. Otherwise, so long as they neglect or deprive themselves thereof, it will follow upon them by their own opinion and assertion (which they say they do still hold) that they stand in great sin, neglecting or contemning to have the true baptism, instituted by the Lord, & that they deprive themselves of great comfort, and confirmation on of their faith, about the particulars aforesaid, touching the body and spirit of the Lord, the faith and hope of the children of God even our Father in jesus Christ. Furthermore, the baptism had in apostate Churches, either is a seal of the covenant of God, or not. If it be a seal of the Lords covenant, then sure it is true baptism. If it be not, then see what great things will follow thereupon: As first, that they which have no other baptism but it, have not the outward baptism that sealeth unto them the covenant of God: and therefore must with the Anabaptists get another, that they may be assured they have the seal of God's covenant of grace and salvation: Secondly, that there neither have been, nor shall be in Babylon any of God's people under his covenant; which is contrary to that which is written, Revel. 18, 4. where the Lord showeth that he hath his people, whon by the words of his covenant he calleth thence, saying Come out of her, my people, etc. And if these men will say, that themselves are not of such people there spoken unto, then let them tell us when and how they came under the covenant of God, and let them also show it without stablishing their own righteousness of works thereby: Thirdly, that the baptism now had in apostate Churches is not answerable to the circumcision had in the apostasy of Israel: For that circumcision (though had in apostasy) was true circumcision, & a seal of the Lords covenant, to his people; and therefore needed not to be renounced or repeated. But the baptism now had in the apostasy of the Church of Rome, they say is not true baptism, and so not a seal of the Lords covenant to his people now, as the other was then; therefore must be renounced, and another that is true obtained. And thus again, in this they make themselves (& would make us) straugers from the policy of Israel; as in the point of government also was observed before. Neither will it now help them to allege those Scriptures, or the like, as we have produced heretofore against the Anabaptists, to approve the retaining of our baptism had in apostasy, without renunciation or repetition thereof: as namely, 2 Chron. 30. chap, compared with Exod. 12, 48, 49. Gen. 17, 10-13. Lev. 26. 14-44.45, 46. Deut. 4. 25-31.2 King. 9, 6. and 13, 23. Psal. 78. 9-38. and 89. 30-34. Ezech. 16, 44-63. and 43. 7-9.2 Thes. 2, 3-8. Rom. 11, 2-5. and 15.4. etc. For now it will be answered them, that in Israel's apostasy they kept circumcision which needed not to be repeated, seeing it was true, and sealed God's covenant unto them: but that these cannot so plead for the baptism had in the apostasy of Rome, because themselves say, the baptism of the church of Rome is not true baptism; and so not the seal of God's covenant to them which have no other but it. Whereunto what they will answer, let them bethink themselves. And let them show us, by what Scriptures they can approve their standing now, who wittingly & willingly remain without true baptism, to seal unto them the covenant of God in jesus Christ. Finally, if the baptism had in the Church of Rome be not true baptism, than (as they also said) it is an idol; bearing the show and image of that which it is not in truth and substance. And so then apply hither that which Mr. Ains. hath observed in his Arrow against idolatry, how God manifesteth the vanity and filthiness of Idols by titles and names given unto them. Pag. 13. & 14. For Idols (saith he) are called, things of nought; as it were filths, dung or excrements; loath some things, or detestable; and abominations; vanities, lies, unprofitable, false-vanities, leasings, and vayn-iniquitie. Thus he writeth of Idols in that place: so as by their opinion, the Baptism of the Church of Rome, is a thing of nought, and therefore to be esteemed as nothing in the world, as it were filth or dung, and therefore to be cast out; a loath some thing, and therefore to be detested; an abomination, and therefore to be abhorred; a vanity, a lie, unprofitable, false-vanity, leasing, and vayn-iniquitie, and therefore that all who have received it should renounce it, & cast it away as a menstruous cloth, and say unto it, Get thee hence: as Esay teacheth, when he showeth the way wherein we should walk, even thus to deal with the monuments and most precious ornaments of idolatry, & therefore much more with the idols themselves. Esa. 30.21.22. Which till these men be careful to do with the idols retained among them, they must be contented, by their own opinion, to be accounted among those many sorts of idolaters, which defile themselves with idols, of whom Mr. Ainsw. speaketh in the same place of his book aforesaid. A great sin it was that they fell into, if there had been no other but it, that without just cause they broke away & divided themselves from the Church whereof they were: but seeing that therewith they have also other very erroneous opinions, and the sinful usurpation of all the holy things of God used among them, what an heavy estate do they stand in, and how greatly doth it import them, to consider their ways in their heart, and to turn their feet unto the testimonies of the Lord? Otherwise let them remember that which the Apostle wrote to the Corinthians, Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 1 Cor. 10.22. And thus much I thought here by this occasion to write about the baptism of the Church of Rome: now I will come to speak of the Church itself. As touching the Church of Rome, there being also at that time speech about it to be the Church of God, I did in deed allege the saying of the Apostle, that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God; as the Apostle expressly teacheth 2 Thes. 2.4. And by the Temple of God, understanding the Church of God, it will follow, that Antichrist should sit in the Church of God: and is there to be sought and found: and not among the jew, Turks, Pagans, or the like, as the Papists & others would persuade us: neither that Antichrist takes away wholly the Church of God, and every truth and ordinance of the Lord, as Anabaptists, and such as are herein Anabaptistically inclined, would bear us in hand. Observe also here again, that which is said, Rev. 18, 4. Go out of her my people, and partake not in her sins, etc. where those words, my people, imply the covenant of God continued among them. For thus is the covenant taught and set down unto us in the Scripture, I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And so is Israel often called the Lords people, & is thus spoken of in the time of their apostasy, by the Prophets: 2 King. 9, 6. & 13.23. 2 Chron. 30, 6-9. Hos. 4, 6, 12. and 5.4. and 14.2. Amos, 7.15. and 8.2. etc. And note here also, how the other clause (partake not in her sins) showeth what we are to leave and renounce, namely, their sins and iniquities, wherein they transgress the la of God, and not whatsoever is had or retained by them. Furthermore, it is undeniable, and we have heretofore urged it much against the Anabaptists, that the Church of Rome was at first, set in the way of God, & was not only one of the Churches of God, Rom. 2.8. & 16.19. but for their faith and obedience was also very famous over the world. Since which time, she is fallen into great apostasy and adulteries, Esa. 1.2. jer. 2.21. Ezec. 16. & 23. ch. 1 Kin. 12. 28-33. & 14.22.23.24. 2 Chro. 13.5. etc. as Israel did in former times. In all which her adulterate & apostate estate, she hath notwithstanding still kept (even to this day) sundry truths and ordinances of God, & mixed with them her own inventions & traditions, as Israel also did. Which being observed aright causeth, a twofold consideration of her estate, as of Israel's: one in respect of the truths and ordinances of God still retained among them; another in respect of the mixture of their own inventions and abominations withal: in regard of the one, to hold and acknowledge the truth & Church of God there, against the Anabaptists; in regard of the other, to consider and observe their apostasy and Babylonish confusion, against Antichrist: and for this cause, namely for this defection and mixture aforesaid, to separate from them, and witness against them: being always careful in our testimony and practice to retain and maintain every truth & ordinance of God, which was in that Church before their apostasy, and is yet continued therein to this day: leaving only and forsaking their corruptions and mixture of their own inventions therewith: lest otherwise we should be brought ourselves, or be occasion to others to fall, into Anabaptistrie, and diverse other errors and evils, as by lamentable example of others we have seen. Note here also a double consideration about the covenant of God made with his people: one in respect of the Lord himself, on the one part; the other in respect of the people taken into covenant by him, on the other part. Deut. 26.17.18.19. judg. 2.1, 20. For it often cometh to pass, that the people do on their part transgress & break the covenant: when the Lord doth not so on his part, but still remembering his covenant, counts them his people, calls them to repentance, follows them sometimes with judgement, sometimes with mereie and compassion, etc. Levit. 26. 15-45. Ezech. 16. 59-62. judg. 2. 1-20. etc. Thus in Israel who were the Lord's people, it may be noted, how they go a whoring after their own inventions, fall into idolatry and false worship, run into sin after sin, and become an harlot, transgressing the covenant on their part. Exod. 32. judg. 2. and 3. with Psa. 78. 56-58. 1 Sam. 7, 3, 4. 1 King. 12. 28-33. and 14.22.23.24. with 2 Chron. 12. and 13. and 1 King. 19.10. Hos. 6.7. and 8.1. Yet the Lord breaks it not on his part, but sometimes of himself, sometimes at the entreaty of his prophets & servants, he spareth them, and doth not destroy them, or presently give them a bill of divorce, according to their demerit; but in his mercy (as a loving husband) he calls them to repentance, and to that end he sends unto them Prophets after Prophets a long time, to draw them to amendment, and calls them still his people, and helps them and casts them not of: Yet so, as besides his word sent unto them, he also adjoineth corrections & punishments; both for avenging the quarrel of his covenant upon them, and for procuring their conversion by all manner means, what may be. As in the books of Moses and history of the judges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, compared with the Prophets may be seen. And particularly in the Scriptures here noted before, and the like: as Exod. 33. and 34. etc. Levit. 26. 14.15-25-42-44.45 judg. 2.1. etc. Psal. 78. 1 King. 13. and 16. and 18. 2 King. 5.8.15.17. with jer. 51.5. and Ezech, 16.59.60. etc. Hoseas and Amos their Prophecies, etc. And in these two diverse respects (sometimes having reference to God, sometimes to Israel) may there many things in the Scriptures be observed to be spoken diversely. For example, Israel considered in themselves and their idolatrous estate, are said to be without God, without Priest to teach, and without la, to forsake and break the covenant of the Lord, to provoke the Lord to anger by their vanities; not to be the Lords wife, but an harlot, going a whoring after their own inventions, and having children of whoredoms; yea and that the Lord is not with Israel, or with any of Ephraim: 2 Chron. 15.3. 1. King. 12.28.33. and 15.34. and 16. 13.26.31-33. and 19.14. Hose. 2. 15. and 5.3.4. and 8.1. and 9.1. with Psalm. 106.29.39. Ezech. 16. and 23. chap. 2 Chron. 25.7. But again being considered in respect of the Lord and his covenant (into which they were received, and) which he breaks not on his part, but calls them to repentance, etc. the Lord is called their God; and they are called the people of the Lord; and their children, borne to the Lord; and Israel not to have been a widow forsaken of God; but that the Lord had mercy on them, and pitied them, and respected them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and jacob; and that he would not destroy them, nor cast them off from him as yet etc. And thus continued Israel a long time, respected of the Lord, notwithstanding her apostasic, etc. judg. 2, 1. etc. 1 King. 18, 36. 2 King. 9, 6, Hos. 4.6, 12. and 5, 4. and 7, 10. and 8, 2. & 9, 1. & 14.1, 2. Amos, 7, 15. (with Psal. 89. 30-34. and Ezech. 16, 20, 60. and jer. 51.5.) and 2 King. 13, 23. Yet notwithstanding in these times, the Prophets taught the people to plead with their mother, about her adulteries, to separate themselves, and not to come at the places of their worship; nor to communicate with them, and bring their sacrifices thither, because in so doing they should multiply their transgressions. etc. Hos. 2, 15. and 4, 12.14.15. Amos 4, 4, 5. and 5, 4, 5. And all these things are written for our learning, & are to be applied to the estate of the Churches in apostasy under the Gospel since Christ. Rom. 15, 4. with 1 Cor. 10.11. Moreover, besides that the word Church is taken sometimes more largely, sometimes more strictly (which about this question likewise may be observed): there is yet further also a double regard that may be had of apostate Churches in all ages, according as they are considered and spoken of, in comparison with other people of diverse sorts. As namely Israel in apostasy, being compared with the Syrians, Philistims, Moabites, and other nations, are called, and aught to be accounted the people of God, who have the only true God for their God, etc. 2 King. 3.8, 15.17. and 9, 6. etc. But being compared with judah: which ruled with God, and was faithful with the Saints, she is called an harlot, not the wife of God, but a whore, committing adultery, and compassing God about with lies and deceit, etc. Hos. 2.2.5. & 4, 15. & 5.3, 4. and 9, 1. and 11.12. etc. In like manner the Church of Rome in apostasy, being compared with the jew, Turks, and Pagans, they are and aught to be accounted Christians, and the Temple of God. Where also is verified that which the Apostle spoke of Antichrists sitting in the Temple of God, 2 Thes. 2.4. not the Temple of jerusalem (as some to turn away the truth, have imagined) but the Temple of Christians, the Church of God, brought to the saith of Christ, and professing to be Christians: as may appear by these scriptures, and the like compared together, 2 Thes. 2.4. with Ezech. 43.7.8. Zath. 6.12.13. Ephes. 2. 11-13.19, 21. 2 Cor. 6.16. Rev. 11.19. and as it is also under stood by all sound writers both old and new. But again, being compared with the ancient Church of Rome and other primitive Churches in the Apostles times, and such as now walk in their steps and in the good and old way, ruling with God, and abiding faithful with his saints: she is called, and is to be esteemed an harlot, the great whore, the mother of the whoredoms and abominations of the earth, believing & speaking lies in hypocrisy, giving heed to seducing spirits, and having pleasure in unrighteousness, etc. Revel. 17.1.5. 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3. 2 Thes. 2. 3-10. 11.12. And thus there being (in diverse respects) a double consideration had of the Church of Rome now, as of Israel heretofore, it will appear, how in one respect it may be said, there is the Church of God or a true Church there, & in another respect, there is an apostate or a false Church there: as it is said by the Apostle, of one and the same woman, that she is dead and alive, in diverse respects, 1 Tim. 5.6. And of the jews, that they are enemies in one respect, and yet beloved in another, Rom. 11, 28. So john Baptist is Elias, and is not Elias, in diverse respects, john. 1, 21. with Mat. 11. 7-14. and 17. 10-13. judas is an Apostle, and yet a devil; Mat. 10.2. 4. joh. 6.70. The jews are the children of Abraham, and yet the children of the devil. joh. 8.33.34. As the Prophets also called the jew, the seed of the wicked, the seed of the adulterer, and a false seed in one respect; when in other respects they acknowledge them to be the seed of Abraham jacob and Israel, and so a true seed and people of the Lord. Esa. 1, 4. and 57, 3, 4. with 41, 8. and 45, 19 and 58, 1. Hos. 2, 1, 2. and 4, 13. Esa. 63, 16, 17. and 64, 9 jer. 31, 36, 37. Hof, 4, 6, 12. and 3, 4. and 14, 2, 3, 4. And endless it were to recount the many speeches and several considerations of things thus spoken of in the Scriptures. Christ is without Father and without mother, Heb. 7, 3. and yet he hath Father and mother, Luke 2, 48, 49. joh. 1, 18. and 2, 3. Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit, 1 Pet. 3, 11. Abraham is unrighteous in himself, but righteous by faith, Rom. 4, 3, 5. The apostle Paul, and all the regenerate serve the la of God, and the la of sin; the one with the mind, the other with the flesh. Rom. 7, 25. Peter is a disciple & an Apostle, and yet in other respect is by Christ called Satan, Mat. 10, 2, and 16, 23. A leprous jew, is a true man and an Israelite, but a corrupt diseased man, to be put and kept out of the host of Israel, till he be clean. Lev. 13, and 14, with 2 Chron. 26, 20, 21. Num. 12, 10-15. The Temple is the house of God, & yet is made a den of thieves, Mat. 21, 13. The Emperors of Rome, Babylon, and the other nations, are Kings and higher powers ordained of God, Rom. 13, 1. with Rev. 17.10 and Dan. 7, 17. yet are they also in other respect Beasts, Lions, Bears, Leopards, etc. Rev. 12.3. & 13, 1, 2, with Dan. 7, 3-6. So likewise the beast was, and is not, & yet is. Rev. 17, 8. And a number the like may be observed in other places of the Scriptures compared together. Now to conclude this point, if these things & the like, about apostate Churches, and the mixture of man's inventions with God's ordinances in apostasy, be distinctly and carefully regarded, they may be (through the mercy of God) some good means to stay people from Anabaptistrie & other ill courses, by the consideration of the things that are to be observed on the one hand; and to bring men more sound to separation from the apostasy of Antichrist, by the consideration of the things to be observed on the other hand. Somewhat (as it pleased God to give me to discern) I observed & written, tending this way, long since: as may be seen in the Answer to Mr. jacob, Where also I noted my wont using of this caution thereabout, (in respect of this, or that estate) as also may be seen in the Apology, where I spoke with the same caution. p. 109. lin. 31.32. pag. 7. where I spoke of a double consideration of Christians, in one respect, true, and in an other, false: as also of salvation now had in the Church of Rome, pag. 13, and 47. which necessarily implieth, the people of God, and his covenant to be there. For whosoever are saved, they are the people of God, and under his covenant in Christ. But so much and so particularly I observed not then, as since it hath pleased God to manifest thereabout. God openeth his will & the mysteries of his word, when and as he pleaseth, that we may still perceive and acknowledge, we know but in part, and that we may be earnest in prayer, & by all means endeavour to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour jesus Christ. And thus much I thought at this time by this occasion to write unto you hereabout. By which you may perceive, how they which for these things speak of us, as if we were going back to England, might by this colour also say, we are going back to Rome. And you may consider with yourself, whether the people that lived in the Prophet's times, and were set against them in those days, might not with such pretences and collections have said, that the Prophets had been declining to the apostate Israelites, when they called and esteemed them to be the people of God, & acknowledged the circumcision had in the apostasy to be true circumcision, etc. But now I will proceed to their next objection. For the sixth and last exception of theirs, which is about having the counsel & help of the English Church at Leyden (to which therefore may be referred the ninth, and the other three particulars annexed unto it, in the printed copy): note here as in the other before, that they mention not the answers that were then given hereabout. As namely, that we would permit it: though (for some reasons) we abstained from desiring it, and sending for them about the matters in hand, or giving our consent so to do. Of which point I shall write more hereafter. But first I would here know, why they never speak of this, that we were constent to permit it? Or was our permission of it, a denying of the practice of it, as now they object in the printed copy? Did Paul deny that, which he spoke by permission: though (for some cause) he did it not of commandment? 1 Cor. 7, 6. Or did Moses deny the practice of that, which he permitted: though (for good cause) he would not enjoin it? Deut. 24, 1. This thing than might have been better observed and regarded of them, than it hath been: specially seeing they know we made question of the lawfulness of doing any more in this case, then only to permit it; and showed also then diverse reasons thereabout: some whereof I will now mention. As 1. that now the other Church and we were in peace together; and if by this occasion the peace between us should be broken, they should not say of us, that we sent for them: our care being (what in us laid) to nourish peace between us, and to prevent & cut off all occasions of division: etc. 2. That the Church of Leyden was in the same error with those of our people, who desired their help. Whereupon, we wished it should be considered, whether we might approve of any to come in such case, but such as we knew to hold and maintain the truth according to the word of God. 3. That former experience with others might also justly cause us to be well advised and circumspect what to do in this behalf. Which when we written of to Leyden, themselves acknowledged that it was such as might justly make us cautelous: but withal, they written how we might esteem better of them then of the other in diverse respects, as being more studious of our peace, and more careful of the cause of Christ, and that whereas the other would have brought in new doctrines and faiths amongst us, they if in any thing they opposed any of us, Note here the term of opposition thus used. should do it in defence of the common and ancient faith, both ours and theirs. 4. That when we written to them again hereabout, we acknowledged great differences to be between them and the other: but touching the doctrines and questions controverted, we prayed them to consider, that the faith of this Church, was that only which is grounded upon the word of God in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles: and that so our faith is the common and ancient faith which was held by the Church of Israel of old, & by the Primitive churches of the jew and Gentiles since the coming of Christ. From which wherein soever we had swerved in faith or practice, it had been our aberration, and not our faith indeed. Against which also whatsoever should be brought in, retained, or defended, it was against our common and ancient faith, both theirs & ours. And whether therefore it were about the Word, Sacraments, or Government of the Church (as about all these we had found opposition) it came to a like end. Also, that in all the three we had resisted the persons spoken of (being such as would have brought in among us new doctrines & faiths in them all) though in the last we had done it least of all: and that now still we purposed by the grace of God to stand against all, that either in all or any of them should oppose against the truth. And here, by this occasion, we entreated to know of them, whether they also were not like minded with the other men aforesaid, agreeing with them in the points of the church Officers and Government, as they held and written thereof, before they fell to their errors of Anabaptism etc. Whereunto we had no answer at all from them. Which is a thing also to be observed. 5. That in this time, & in the same letters, we wrote to them about a letter sent unto them by many of our people concerning these matters (as themselves had certified us) desiring to have a copy of it, together with the names that were subscribed thereunto, and the things delivered by word of mouth (as was told us) that we might the better consider of these things, & of our people's dealing thereabout. And when thus we could not obtain it of them, we alleged diverse reasons to persuade them to send it unto us, viz, that the matters written of were touching our public affairs & estate, whatsoever might concern any of us more particularly beside; that the persons which sent it, were members of our Church; that if the thing done were good, it would abide the light, and they should do well to follow the Apostles example, who showed the Church of Corinth both the parties and the particulars signified unto him by them, 1 Cor. 1, 11. but if it were evil, than it behoved them so much the more to give, Gen. 37.2 Exod. 20.12, 16. job, 29.16 Prov. 18.17. Act. 20.28. etc. and us to have from them, the full knowledge of the things aforesaid, that it might be seen they did not partake with them in their evil, and that we might do our duty according to that which laid upon us in this behalf, etc. that whereas they written their purpose was to come unto us, according to the request of the brethren which had moved them, etc. they gave us occasion to signify unto them, that till we knew who those brethren were, and what had passed between them, we could not so well admit thereof, for the reasons before rendered unto them; that we were constrained the more to defier them to send it us, because when the Elders here asked some for it (whom they understood to be of those parties) they answered, that here they had not either the Original perfect, or a perfect copy, neither any note of the names subscribed; & finally, that if they would not send it, but still keep it from us, than they and the parties here gave us cause to refuse to have dealing with them about the things spoken of, & that so the hindrance should be in themselves; & therefore if they would there should be no such hindrance, but that we should afterward have reasoning with them about the matters aforesaid, and did in deed seek the peace & good of this Church, they should show it forth by sending unto us a copy of those things, whereabout we had written unto them three times: etc. But yet notwithstanding any entreaty or reasons alleged about it, we could not by any means get a copy thereof either there or here. What we heard was in it, & other circumstances & dealing about it, I do omit now to speak of: and will proceed to other things about the matter in hand. And next of all, it is to be observed, that to all the letters and matters aforesaid written by us to Leyden hereabout, M. A. himself subscribed as well as we. So that if it were evil in us, it was also evil in himself. Which let him acknowledge, knowledge, taking away the former reasons, and showing it by the word of God, that we may do likewise. Or if he can warrant his own doing therein, why doth he thus object against us that very thing, wherein himself joined and subscribed with us at that time? Let him also tell us, whether therein he denied the practice of that article in the Confession (about having the counsel and help of that Church): or whether he yielded unto it by permission, but abstained from sending for them, or giving approbation to their coming, for the reasons aforesaid. Let him also call to mind, whether himself (as I remember) did not say, or (at least) heard some of us say, upon former experience had with others, that whiles we lived we would take heed, how we consented to any other in like sort to come publicly into the Church, whom we knew aforehand to be in error, and so purposed to maintain the same. But be it that we should have desired this, or at least consented to have it desired, as is implied here: yet though we did it not, the help of that Church was procured and obtained, as is said here and in the printed copy. So then the thing itself was had, by their own saying: how ever there wanted our desire of it or consenting thereunto: Though yet they should not forget, that we consented to the permission of it, and showed reasons of our restraining from doing more in this case, as is aforesaid. Now therefore when their help was procured, and that they were come: how were the things then carried? Where (omitting to speak of that which passed from them, & to keep to those that concern ourselves) they all know, that we reasoned with them publicly about the matter in question: And that we consulted & advised with them about some course to be taken for procuring and keeping peace between us. And this not only at that time, but afterward also both by word and writing. So then we both reasoned with them about the points in difference, & we used their counsel and help how to come to a good issue thereabout. And thus themselves will not deny, that the thing itself spoken of in the Confession, was in this sort observed by us, as is aforesaid. But how did they observe it themselves, when they broke away and left us, while we were writing one to another (the other Church and we) concerning the matters propounded and fallen out between us hereabout? Of which I shall have occasion to speak more hereafter: when first I have noted a few things further about the former matter, concerning ourselves, & the Article spoken of. For ourselves, besides the other things aforesaid, we signified also, that we would not refuse to confer & reason with the brethren of Leyden at any time about the matter in hand, so as their coming were either of themselves, or by the request of them here that desired it, and without our approbation, for the reasons spoken of, etc. And accordingly, when they came hither, Their Elders, with consent of the rest. we performed it, notwithstanding any thing that had passed before about these things. For the Article itself, observe the clauses in it, and the Scriptures cited for confirmation of it. For the clauses in it, note how it is said, Conf. a●t. 38. that every particular Congregation is as a compact and knit city in itself, and therefore should use all good and lawful means, that may further their compacting and knitting together in the truth and common faith: but not any such as may cause or at least colour the dividing of them asunder. Also, that the churches should all walk by one and the same rule, and by all means convenient, have the counsel and help one of another, in all needful affairs of the Church, as members of the same body in the common faith, under Christ their only head. If this than be a rule for us, it is so likewise for all other Churches, that when there falleth out question about an error among them, they should desire the counsel and help of such Churches thereabout, as they know to be corrupted with the same error, and not purposed to leave it, but to defend it, supposing it to be the truth. And what conveniency it were (not to speak of the lawfulness of it) or how needful, to call such as we know to be in error, that so our people might either be the more corrupted, or have the more colour for their error & evil dealing, you may consider with yourself. Or if we had sent for them, or approved it, might we not have been accessary to the means, by which the truth might have been hindered, and our people more confirmed in error? And where then is the warrant for such walking? For the Scriptures that are cited for confirmation of the Article aforesaid, first observe (about the point of difference between us) how the Scriptures of the old Testament are alleged aswell as of the new: and those also concerning the estate of Israel, applied to our times and cases now. Secondly consider, whether those Scriptures intent or will warrant a Church, to send for such or to desire their counsel and help, whom they know to be in error about the points questioned and dealt in, and by whom the parties that trouble the church may be more strengthened in their errors and evils thereabout. Which if they do, or if any other do it (that are not cited here) then ought we and all to yield thereunto. Otherwise if the help and courses desired be not such as are approved in the word of God, we might tempt God in attempting of them: and therefore must be careful to follow that only which hath warrant from thence, whereby the truth may be furthered, the safety and liberty of the Church preserved, and occasion cut off from them that desire occasion thereagainst. And besides the things aforesaid, why did not themselves also desire to have the counsel and help of the Dutch and French Churches, that were here at hand round about us? If they say, because they thought they were in error about the matter in question, and so might have hindered the truth, and have been against them, and for us: then by it may be perceived what their own judgement is about this particular (being simply considered in itself) and in this behalf what the weight of this their exception is against us. If they answer any other thing, it may accordingly be considered of, as it shall be found to be. And hitherto concerning the Article aforesaid, and sundry particulars that passed between us by this occasion, not spoken of by them. Now touching the three particulars annexed to the ninth objection in the printed copy: the first is, that before their parting, they offered, that notwithstanding our differences of judgement, they would continue together, if our former practice might be retained: Which is as if they should say, they would have continued with us, if we would have continued in error and evil (so found and acknowledged by us): suffering the ordinance of God (touching the Eldership) to be trodden under foot; the Elders to be despised & abused by the people; and the whole Church to be continually subject to contentions and scandals, etc. Besides, why do they not also mention, what we offered to them? which seeing they speak not of, we will: namely, that before their parting we offered to bear with them in their difference of judgement, if they would be content to walk peaceably with the Church in that their difference: but this was refused. The next particular they speak of, is, that then they desired a peaceable parting; & to be two distinct Congregations, each practising as they were persuaded, yet nourishing love & unity. A peaceable parting we grant they desired in word, but in deed stayed not with us, but departed while we were considering and advising whether it could lawfully be effected or not. And touching that particular of being two distinct Congregations of us in this city etc. we showed them diverse reasons, why we could not in this case agree thereunto. And of those reasons we had speech with them here, and written to the Church of Leyden: signifying withal, that if we could otherwise better discern what were according to the will of God herein, we should (God willing) so receive and walk. Which letter (with the reasons therein contained) is hereafter noted down. Yet notwithstanding they stayed not, till we had an answer thereof from Leyden, but soon after departed from us. Besides that other means also was used (by writing) which might at least have persuaded them to stay and do otherwise then they did. Of which I shall also speak more hereafter. The third particular is, about their procuring the help of the English Church at Leyden, without our consent (of which I have spoken here before) & about a way of peace propounded by us, & agreed unto by the Church of Leyden & ourselves, and yet afterward reversed by us, etc. Touching which they do here as before, omit diverse things needful to be known and remembered: As first, what the thing itself is that was propounded by us, namely, that for such as could not be content with protestation peaceably to walk with either Church (at Leyden or here) it should be free for them to go from the one Church and Pastor to the other: so as there were no other cause lying against them. This was in deed propounded by my self: having much thought and considered (what I could) of any lawful means, by which we might come to some good end and agreement, after our so long and lamentable troubles and contentions, as we had been exercised withal. Which when I had propounded, they of Leyden answered, that they were glad to hear of such a motion, little thinking that we had been so inclining to peace and agreement: This to my remembrance was the effect of the things that passed here about. which if they had thought, they should have carried themselves otherwise towards us, than they had done. And for the thing itself, that they would consider of it with their Church; and if either they or we minded otherwise by the word of God, that we should signify it. Which caution being thus spoken of by them, myself then said (as I remember) that I had thought so to have spoken also concerning it, but had forgotten (when I spoke) to mention it. And so then it was minded of us both to be considered of and prosecuted with this condition and limitation, of being found lawful by the word of God. And let this for hereafter be still remembered, because it will clear all the question about this matter. Secondly, at the first treating of this matter between us, the Officers of the Church of Leyden (then present) did so conceive it, as that our people which would not walk with this Church, as is aforesaid, should go and remain with them at Leyden. Which some of them here observing & excepting against it, in respect of their means of living had here, etc. they were answered by them of Leyden, that they must be contented to suffer or bear the cross of Christ with them, or to such effect. Then also concerning the course aforesaid, there was noted a double consideration about it: The one, about the doing of it so, The later is the point which they do so much urge. as to live and remain with the other Church whither they should go: The other, about the doing of it so, as that having once gone and joined thewselues to the other Church, they might then return again to the town where they lived before, and there live apart from the Church, whereof they had formerly been. And hereupon, having speech about these two courses: the first was sooner conceired of and generally liked of all; the latter was less conceived of and more called in question (as afterwards did appear) though for mine own part I did myself so mind and like of it at that time. And when some among us propounded, that such as went from us to Leyden and joined to that Church, should not be dismissed back by them again, to live apart from us in this town: both myself and the Elders of the other Church (to my remembrance) answered, that this matter would concern that Church to which they should join to look unto, and so was to be left unto them. But afterward, considering yet further of the lawfulness of such dismission thither, & hither again: I showed my mind herein to be altered, & diverse reasons thereabout. Of which I shall speak hereafter, when I come to that matter. Thirdly, when the matters aforesaid, which we had propounded, were communicated with the Church at Leyden, and their Elders returned hither again, they signified that these things came suddenly upon their Church, yet for the present (as they could in that time consider thereof) they liked well of it, or to such effect. So now again at this time we had more speech together thereabout. The former of the two courses (as I said before) was generally well approved, and consented unto. The latter was more doubted of and more question made about it; & in the end more & more disliked by diverse, the more that it was perceived to be the brethren's purpose so to do. And this most appeared the next morning, when the likelihood of agreement that was the night before, was then so changed, upon further reasoning and consideration thereof, as we could not accord thereabout. And so the Officers of the other Church (signifying that they had great occasion to return home, and could then no longer stay, departed, and said, it would be heavy to their Church to hear that the things were come to no better issue between us. Yet when they were gone, we still continued speech among ourselves about these things, being sorry that they stood thus, and that no better tidings should be carried to the other Church. And then upon some speech so had together (as we could in that short time) we came to this issue, that we thought it best to agree upon the matter aforesaid in this sort, that whatsoever blame should follow hereupon (if our people were by them of Leyden dismissed to live here apart from us in this city) it should lie upon them, and we be free of it. And so thereupon we presently sent three with this message after the brethren of Leyden (if they could overtake them in time) to signify thus much unto them, that they might also signify it unto their Church. And this (I think) is the agreement spoken of. Which when it was in this manner agreed upon, some of the brethren present (there being then but a sew at that time) came to the Elders, showing how they thought it needful that this should be spoken of the Lords day after: & others say to this day, they never consented unto it: and some, that they said then, it was unlawful. And these men themselves, it may be, would be loath to stand to their own positions about it, that in a controversy the greater part should be the Church (whether the Elders be with them or against them) and that the matters of sin and question touching the brethren should be heard and ended on the Lord's day. But I will proceed on to other matters that followed afterwards about these things. Fourthly, while things stood thus 'mong us, we had the Lords day following speech hereabout again: at which time there was a new motion made for an other course to be taken, by which we might keep together, rather than to part asunder according to the other course spoken of, Which being then propounded, and not agreed upon, was left to further consideration. And so that week we wrote to the Church of Leyden thereabout. By which occasion, after the aforesaid treating of these things had by word of mouth, there passed also some letters between us concerning them. Which although in diverse respects we could be willing to keep among ourselves: yet considering in what sort and with what scandal the brethren aforesaid have since divided themselves from us, and that the reproach of it is spread far and near not only by others, but even by their own letters and writings thereabout, to the great dishonour of God, and hindrance of the truth: and that the knowledge of these things will be a good means for all both to settle their own judgement better, and to deal with them or others concerning these matters, as there shall be occasion: we have therefore thought it not amiss to note down here the contents of the letters aforesaid that passed between us hereabout, before the others departing from us. Which we may also the better do, because they are but few and short. First therefore, when we had afterward had further speech among ourselves, as is aforesaid, and had not yet heard from the Church at Leyden again what they thought of the matter and message aforesaid, or whether they consented unto it or not: we written unto them as followeth. Beloved, touching the things that have now lately been spoken off between the two Churches, yours and ours, about the dismission of such on either part as are not content with protestation peaceably to walk in their difference of judgement, we have occasion to entreat the continuance of your consideration yet further thereabout: 1. because yourselves signified it came suddenly upon your Church: and if either you or we minded otherwise by the word of God, we should after signify it: Wherefore we expect to hear whether you continue like minded as heretofore. 2. because there is with us a new motion of our walking together thus, by bearing one with another, so as for peace to permit of a double practice among us, that those that are minded either way, should keep a like course together, as we would do if we were asunder, according as the persons shall be that have the causes. Which way, if it may be found warrantable by the word of God, and peaceable unto and among ourselves, we hope all that love peace in holiness will accord. These things as we are to consider of, so pray we you to do the like with us and for us, that we may do that which is most to God's glory and our mutual comfort. Thus etc. Amsterdam Novemb. 5. old style. 1610. And note here, how we both considered further of these things, and still limited our consultation and purpose with this caution, if the things propounded were found warrantable by the word of God. Which is to be observed for the weight of it against these persons, who have taken such a course, together with their opinions, as can never be warranted by the word of God. Next followeth the letter and answer, which then we received from the Church of Leyden again: which was thus: Touching the agreement (Brethren) between the Churches for our mutual peace, and the relief of the consciences of our brethren, we did and do repute the same as full and absolute on both sides, except either some better course can be thought on, or this manifested to be evil, and that then it be reversed with the mutual consent of both Churches. And for this last motion about a double practice, as we are glad of the great and godly desire to continue together, in it manifested, so do we not see, how it can stand either with our peace, or itself: but that it will not only nourish, but even necessarily beget endless contentions, when men diversely minded shall have business in the Church. If therefore it would please the Lord so far to enlarge your hearts on both sides (brethren) as that this middle way be held, namely, that the matter of offence, might first be brought for order, preparatation, and prevention of unnecessary trouble, unto the Elders as the Church governors, (though it is like we for our parts shall not so practise in this particular) and after, if things be not there ended, to the Church of Elders and brethren, there to be judged on some ordinarte known day ordinarily, the admonition being carried according to the alteration practised and agreed upon by all parts, till it shall please the God of wisdom, and Father of lights, by the further consideration & discussing of things, either in word or writing, to manifest otherwise for our joint accord, it would surely make much to the glory of God, & the stopping of their mouths which are so wide opened upon us in respect of our daily dissipations, and should be to us matter of great rejoicing, whose souls do long after peace, & abhor the contrary: and that thus walking in peace and holiness, we might all beg at God's hands the healing and pardon of all our infirmities, & so be ready to heal and forgive the infirmities one of another in love. And with this prayer unto God for you, and for ourselves, we resalute you in the Lord jesus, Leyden November 14. 1610. This was their letter. Wherein observe these things about the matters that passed between us. First, that here is the answer which they gave us about the agreement and message aforesaid, as also to the letters which afterwards we sent unto them. Secondly, that touching the agreement they limit their consent unto it & their account of it with a double exception: For though they say they repute the agreement to be full and absolute on both sides, yet they speak it with limitation and exception: as in deed was good and needful to do, both in respect of the thing itself, and seeing at the first propounding of the matter, it was so minded by them and us to be considered of with limitation, of being found lawful by the word of God. Thirdly, that the exceptions which here they made, were these, except either some better course could be thought on, or this manifested to be evil. So then by this it is evident, that if either a better course could be showed, or this manifested to be evil, they did not yield or repute the agreement to be full and absolute. Now touching the showing of a better course, it appeareth by both of these letters, theirs and ours, that both of us were thinking of it, & therefore propounded other courses (each to other) to be considered. To which end may be observed here, their propounding of another way unto us for peace & agreement, with diverse reasons to persuade thereunto. Which had been altogether in vain, for them to propound or us to think of, if the other had been absolute without exception, and irrevocable without alteration, though it were found never so evil or unlawful. And for the manifesting of it to be evil, the more we thought of it, the worse we found it to be: and minded diverse reasons against it: which first we signified here to the brethren themselves, and had some reasoning with them thereof, but could not agree thereabout: and then we written of them also to the Church at Leyden, as by the next letter here following will appear. And we need not doubt, but if the thing which they purposed here, had gone forward with our consent, it would afterwards have been much abused against us by others, if not also by themselves: specially as it appeared still more & more to be in deed intended by them: the thing being such, as although it had never been thought or spoken of among us, yet it would (in a matter of this weight) have been found a great oversight. But it being spoken of, and manifested, that they would but go to the other Church to join unto them there, & then presently return hither again to remain and live here in the same town, apart from us, of whom they were: what would this have proved in deed, but scandal and collusion, and have been turned upon us with the more reproach, because we consented unto it? As for that other clause in their letter, where they writ that the agreement should be reversed with the mutual consent of both Churches: note that this was their propounding thereof unto us, which we were to consider of, whether we would assent unto it or not. And that in all such cases, wherein it may fall out that either sin may be committed, or the truth hindered, or the liberty of the Church impeached, it behoveth all carefully to take heed what they consent and yield unto: yea that if any conditions or agreements are made, which can not without sin be performed, it is better to break then to keep them. Lastly observe here, how the course about dealing in matters propounded in this letter, and not yielded unto by the others, Except some of them. showeth plain enough, how greatly these men oppugned the ordinance of God touching the Elders hearing and judging of causes and persons, and how highly they lift up the people therein: specially when the things noted before about this question, are joined and compared herewith. Now it followeth, that we set down our next letter sent unto the other Church about the matter aforesaid: which also was the last that passed between us, afore the others parting from us. And it was thus: Your letter (brethren) we received and read publicly. Corcerning which, we have occasion to signify some things unto you thereabout. And first touching the agreement treated of between us, that for such of us as will not come thither to remain with you, but purpose still to live here, in this city, apart from us: albeit there be some that could be content notwithstanding so to dismiss them, yet there are others of us, that having more considered of it, think it not lawful to have any hand in consenting thereunto, and mean therefore to reverse our former agreement unto it, besides that diverse of us say, they never consented hereunto. And further, some of us also begin to think that it will be found unlawful to keep spiritual communion with them in such estate, how ever we may still retain with them civil society. The reasons minded, why not so to dismiss them, nor to have spiritual fellowship with them in such estate & walking, are these: 1. Because we can not find warrant for it in the word of God. 2. Because they refuse disobey and speak evil of the truth and way of God. 3. Because they refuse to continue and keep communion with us, though they may be suffered to walk with us in peace with protestation in their difference of judgement. 4. Because some of them profess they will not deal in causes (as may fall out between us) by way of protestation, neither when they are with us, nor when they are from us. 5. Because they go not from one Church and Pastor to another, so to live and remain: but purpose (when they have come & joined unto you) then presently to return, & to live here in this town apart from us. 6. Because by such walking of theirs, great reproach will come upon us all, with much dishonour to God, and hindrance to the truth, what in them lieth. 7. Lastly, because we think there should always be somewhat in such cases used, as whereby the Lord may work upon their consciences, to consider their estate, and to repent and yield to the truth and way of God which they have hitherto refused and oppugned, etc. Thus we thought to acquaint you with these things, and the reasons thereabout. Which yet are so minded of us, as if either among ourselves or by others we shall hereafter better discern what is according to the will of God herein, we shall (God willing) be ready so to receive and walk. As touching the the double practice, misliked by you, although in deed it may seem somewhat strange and difficult, yet for the present some of us could like better of it, then of a parting: but the brethren differing from us will not admit of it. Neither will they yield to that middle course propounded in your letter. Yet have we left it, with the former things, to their further consideration. And how soever it pleaseth the Lord to dispose of us, our trust is that he will work all in the end to the furtherance of his truth, and peace of his Church in jesus Christ. To whose gracious protection and guidance we commend you, etc. Amsterdam. Novemb. 19.1610. This letter being here publicly read, was then sent to the Church at Leyden. Whereabout let these things also be observed here. First, that we reversed not our agreement concerning such, as would go and live with the Church at Leyden: but only about such as would not remain and live there, but purposed to return, & live here apart from us in this city. Secondly, that for this also we showed diverse reasons moving us so to do: and that, both here by word of mouth, and by writing to Leyden, afore they went away from us. Thirdly, that whereas two courses were propounded for the keeping of us together, the one by us here, the other by the Church at Leyden, they would not admit of either of them: neither remained with us, till we had from Leyden an answer of this letter, and of the reasons contained therein: but were so set upon parting from us, as before we heard from them, they divided themselves from us; and so have continued to this day. Yea notwithstanding that before this their parting, and besides all the other means formerly used, we offered also to try out in writing the matter between us, touching our difference about the Church's government, and understanding of Mat. 18.17. which likewise they refused. Whereof I shall speak more particularly hereafter. Fourthly, that when they left us, they went not to Leyden, there to join themselves to that Church, according to the agreement before spoken of: but went apart from us here, forsaking the fellowship which they had with us, and met together in another place of this town. Which is much to be observed, not only for the thing itself, but because that thus themselves in their going away followed not the agreement between the other Church and us, whereof they speak. And so that which they did, was both without our agreement, and the Churches of Leyden, for aught we know. Neither have they here set down the cause that moved them, not to go to Leyden first and join there (according to the former agreement) afore they had taken this course of meeting apart from us here. If they would have this taken for a declaration of that which they intended indeed, that if they had gone to Leyden, and joined there, it should have been, but for the satisfying of our minds, whom they saw to be troubled about the dismission of them; and that in deed they meant not to live and remain with that Church and Pastor there, but when they had so done, then to come & live apart from us, as now they do: we and others may accordingly esteem thereof, and take it as a further confirmation of the reasons alleged for the reversing of our consent to the agreement aforesaid. There is also a clause inserted by them in their third particular now treated of, where they say, that in the treaty of the Agreement it was testified by the Elders of the Church of Leyden, that unless it were to the apparent undoing of them, & of their families, they should not be dismissed again to dwell here: which whether it did any way move them in this behalf to do as they did, themselves know best. Myself cannot say, that it did. But this is sure, that some have gone from this Church & city to live in the other, in respect of their outward estate, and in hope of bettering of it: though none of them did so, upon the former agreement, and in respect thereof, that I can remember. And (to note it here by this occasion) well may it be that this speech of the Elders of that Church was a means to persuade us much to the agreement aforesaid: and that when it appeared, how themselves were purposed not to live with the other Church & Pastor there, but to return and live apart from us here, that then we did the more think of it, whether it were lawful for us to consent thereunto: and thereupon showed the reasons aforesaid for the reversing of our former agreement unto it. Which reasons also together with their own purpose of living here apart from us; they should have done well to have spoken of in their writing, and not to have said only, that although in the treaty of the agreement it was testified by the Elders of that Church, that unless it were to the apparent undoing of them, and of their families, they should not be dismissed again to dwell here: yet because they would not absolutely promise to leave this city, we would not stand to the agreement which ourselves had made. For they know both their own purpose aforesaid, and that we showed diverse reasons, why we thought it not lawful for us to continue, but to reverse, our consent to the dismission of such as would not remain with the other Church, but purposed still to live here in this city apart from us. And in deed in such cases, if things should concern ourselves, even with certain loss and hurt to us and our families, yet should we not make our outward estate the ground or rule of our religion or religious actions, but we should always first look and consider what is lawful for us by the word of God to consent unto in others, or to practise ourselves: and then in faith to walk before the Lord, being upright, and committing our way unto him, who will bring it to pass. Psal. 37.3, 4, 5. with Gen. 12.1. and 17.1. Note also here, how in the two last particulars of the printed copy, they have this clause thrice, that we would not agree to stand to the agreement, unless they left this city; and have not once any where, unless they went from one Church and Pastor to another: the very naming whereof is such, as carrieth weight of reason with it against them, and for us. Moreover, concerning the point and Article spoken of, about having the counsel and help of other Churches, note also that however they speak much of it, yet in deed they did not follow it themselves; in that whiles the other Church and we were treating & writing about the matters aforesaid, they stayed not till we had done, to see what would be the end of our consultation, as it should please the Lord to dispose: but when they knew we had written unto Leyden, and whereabout, and that yet we had received no answer from them again, they broke away from us; and took also another course than that which was agreed upon, as is aforesaid. And so themselves herein observed not that in deed, which they speak in word, about having the counsel & help one of another, in all needful affairs of the Church, etc. And be it that either we or the of Leyden (from whom we heard not in this time) should be wanting or failing in any thing hereabout: (as who in such difficulties and troubles are not subject to be?) Yet what will they allege for warrant of their separation from us which they have made? Themselves know that every want or failing in Churches or actions, will not bear out such divisions. Good warrant it had need be that should uphold such disbounding and separating of themselves, as they have run into. If they allege the matters that are mentioned in the foresaid letters which they sent into England, and in the other writing of theirs, which is printed: for them you see the answer now given thereunto: and let them remember also, that howsoever they speak of other matters, yet they made their division only for the question, about Government and the understanding of Mat. 18.17. whereabout we differed and could not agree. And if then in the matter itself, for which they left communion with us, they be found themselves to be in notable error: what warrant may it be that they can allege herein, which will not return upon their own heads in the end, as that Scripture doth which they allege for and at their dividing of themselves from us? Rom. 16, 17. As for the long disputing of these matters, whereof they speak, that also maketh the more against them, because that although such care and continual pains was taken for them and with them, yet it prevailed nothing at all with them neither. And where they say, no way of peace could by us be found to continue together in the truth & holiness, they should turn their eyes upon themselves, upon their errors, and upon their stubborn contentious and unruly walking: beside that they stayed not to see what issue it would please God to bring of the matters in hand betweme the other Church and us: and refused also to try if by writing among ourselves, we could have come to better accord in our differences, than we could by speech and word of mouth. Which although it be a means seldom used when parties are present together, and carefully to be regarded when and how it is so used: yet I suppose now that they have better bethought themselves, they will acknowledge it had been better to have admitted of any lawful means they could, rather than to have divided themselves as they did, and to have brought so great reproach & many evils upon themselves and others as they have done, Or if they will not so acknowledge themselves, yet I doubt not but others will for them. For that which they speak of the lamentable dissipation of the Church and members beginning to grow, if they had named any particulars thereabout, they might accordingly have been spoken of. Which seeing they have not done, I will leave to the consideration of themselves & others, whether their dealing & departing from us might not only have begun, but even have caused to grow and go forward, a most lamentable dissipation of this Church, & the members thereof, had not God disappointed them, and in mercy sustained and kept us together, when they made their division & committed so great offence in this Church: Rom. 16.17. contrary to the doctrine, which we have learned of the Prophets and Apostles; which we also showed unto them many times, afore they parted from us; and which (now that they have left us) must end all the question and controversy that is between us. And here it is to be remembered, that always and in all our writings and occasions we still profess to have the word of God alone for the light of our feet and direction of our ways, in all things. Which we should therefore be the more careful to follow, as it pleaseth God of his goodness to manifest his will unto us more & more. And likewise about these matters, and in the last letter aforesaid, we limited our dealing and the reasons alleged, with the same caution still, of following that which we should among ourselves or by others best discern to be according to the will of God therein: Which though it had not been expressed, should always be understood. But being purposely and so often mentioned from time to time, about these things, it should the more be remembered & regarded of us all: that by it we may examine & determine all the matters betweme us. For neither may we retain any thing in the Church, nor yield to any agreement with others, that is not warrantable by the word of God: neither should they urge the continuance of any thing among us, nor follow themselves any course in their practice, that cannot by it be approved: but we should still grow in knowledge & obedience of the will of God, leaving that which is evil, and following that which is good, in all things. Moses, when he was informed by jethro that the course of government, which he took in judging the people and hearing their causes so as he did, was not good, but wearisome both to him and the people, and had another way showed unto him, to be received with the approbation of God: he willingly harkened unto it, and changed his former course, the Lord also approving the same. Exod. 18. 13-26. When David in a godly desire was careful to bring the Ark of God from Kirja●h-jearim to jerusalem, he put it in a new cart, and began to carry it with singing and playing on instruments and great solemnity: thinking that he had done well and right therein: but the Lord made a breach upon them by the death of Vzza. Whereupon David stayed the further removing of it a while: and perceiving that it was, because they did it not in the due order thereof, he then afterwards took another course, appointing the Levites to bear it, whom the Lord had chosen to carry the Ark of the Lord, and minister unto him. 1 Chron. 13. and 15. 2-13. etc. Now what breaches, contentions, and continual troubles, had been at that time in this Church among us, they are not ignorant of: besides the exceeding great and heavy one, which about the same time befell that other Congregation of our countrymen here, who about the question of the Church's government, pleaded also against the Eldership, for their popular course, with some of the very same arguments, and other like, as these have done; and run into sundry anabaptistical opinions and courses, not unknowen unto them: And the brethren of Leyden in their letter here before make mention of our daily dissipations which then we had. Which things I note here by this occasion, that it may the better appear, both what great cause we had now to look hereunto, and that these things also befell us, while we held that course of government pleaded for by these men, and afore they made this schismatical departing from us, as now they did, because we would not still continue and hold on the same course, as before. Besides these examples of Moses and David, I could also allege the Apostles, who upon experience of evils that came by having younger widows in the service of the Church, took afterwards another course, and appointed that none should be taken into that number under threescore year old, etc. 1 Tim. 5, 9-15. And for changing of things purposed and determined, when there is just cause, we have likewise the example of David again, who when he had purposed and solemnly vowed the death of Nabal and all his family, yet afterward upon the persuasion and reasons used by Abigail, changed his purpose, and blessed her, and the Lord, for her counsel & persuasion given unto him: 1 Sam. 25. 21-35. And of the Prophet Nathan, who having both consented to David's purpose of building an house to the Lord, and encouraged him thereunto, yet when as the same night the Lord showed him, that he did not require it of David, neither would have him to do it: he thereupon went and showed it to David; who also rested therein, with praise and thanks unto God. 1 Chron. 17. chap. And these things are written for our learning, which I do the rather note here, considering the persons & matters spoken of: The persons being Moses, David, Nathan, Paul: some Prophets, some Apostles: The matters being touching the government of the people, the worship of God, the service of the Church, and helping one of another, etc. Yet such persons in such matters altered their courses and purposes, and were ready and willing so to do, when either by the counsel of others, or by their own experience, or by the word or work of God, they perceived any error to be committed, or some other evil to ensue, in the courses taken or purposes intended by them. They knew and were careful as (all should) that in all things, whether concerning the worship of God, or government of the Church, or other duties and actions, that only should be received and retained, which is approved of God: and whatsoever is evil or unwarrantable by his word (though formerly had and observed) that it should be corrected and amended. According to which rule, and examples of the godly in former times, if these men would now (without prejudice) examine their opinions and courses aforesaid, they should find it high time for them to make a stand, to observe the work of God upon them, & to give themselves no rest till they have forsaken their errors & redressed their crooked ways: be they otherwise never so pleasing unto them or ancient with them. So should they in deed keep the ancient faith, and walk in the old and good way prescribed of God. Let them therefore hearken to the instruction and counsel given unto them: Let the way of God be in their heart, and his fear before their eyes: Let them think on their own ways, and turn their feet unto his testimonies: Let them make haste, and not delay to keep his commmandements. Psal. 119.59.60. And to this end, let them about the things spoken of, consider well, of these two points: 1. of the questions themselves that have been and are between us; and therein especially of those differences whereabout they severed themselves from us; 2. of the charge laid upon the Pastors and Elders over the flock committed unto them by the Lord; and of the duty required of the people again towards the Governors, whom the Lord sets over them in his stead. Of the first I have treated here, and in another treatise before, written about the exposition of Mat. 18.17. For the latter, see these & the like Scriptures, throughout the book of God; Exod. 20, 12. 2 Chron. 26. 16-21. Act. 20, 17, 28. Rom. 12, 3-8. 1 Cor. 12, 28. Ephes. 4, 11-16. Col. 4, 17. 1 Thes. 5, 12, 13. 1 Tim. 5, 17-21. and 6, 13.14. Tit. 2, 15. jam. 5, 14. 1 Pet. 5, 14. Rev. 2, & 3. Heb. 13, 17. And now to conclude, besides all the former things, we entreated them also that seeing the same matter was then in hand both between Mr. Amsworth and Mr. Bernard, and between Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Bernard, that therefore they would stay, to see what this way might come to pass for the more clearing of the points in difference between us, and our better accord thereabout: But they would not be persuaded so to do. And then finally, after a years dispute publicly had by word of mouth, Once a week commonly. & all the other means used among us, I offered in the end (as I said before) to try out the matter in writing between us, and gave forth unto them the observations which then I had collected about Mat. 18.17. Which since are printed. Which they both heard publicly read, and had them to copy out, afore they went away from us: yet would they not yield hereunto: But when we had appointed another day in the week about these things, than had they some speech of diverse particulars in the foresaid writing, whereabout also we spoke again: and so some speech passed between us thereabout: but to give answer unto it in writing they would not be persuaded. Neither would they continue any longer with the Church: but with great sin and scandal divided themselves from us (which they professed that day, December 15. and 16. 1610. & practised the next, and so have continued ever since) alleging the saying of the Apostle to the Romans, Rom. 16, 17: Which is so direct against themselves, and for us, as I will now allege no other Scripture at all, against the division and scandals caused by them, but leave them even by this to be judged of their own mouth. Which they shall do well to lay to heart, & to ponder seriously with themselves; seeing that by the very Scripture which themselves alleged, all are bound to mark them, and avoid them, as having made division and offences, contrary to the doctrine which we have learned of the Prophets and Apostles of the lord Rom. 16, 17. Thus have I more largely than I thought, written hereabout: and do now leave it to your wise and godly consideration, as it shall please the Lord by his word and spirit to direct and persuade you therein. Farewell in the Lord; who remembreth his people in their base and distressed estate, and giveth an issue with every tentation; who also will deliver us from every evil work, & preserve us to his heavenly kingdom, by Christ our Redeemer: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. His grace be with you, and his strong consolation in your spirit for ever. Amen. Yours Francis johnson. THus (good Reader) I have set down M. johnsons Answer to the objections contained in M. A. letter, and the printed copy, about the division aforesaid. Now I will here also annex a note that was printed heretofore, concerning these things: which being first discussed, were then agreed upon by the Church. The note is this, as followeth. ¶ A NOTE OF SOME THINGS CALLED into question and controverted in the exiled English Church at Amsterdam. By this course we had much contention & trouble, etc. It being held among us, that such as were to be dealt withal publicly for sin, should not be admonished by the Elders, whereupon the proceeding against them, if they persisted therein, might follow: but that the people's consent was first to be taken, afore the Elders did so admonish any such persons: This point about admonition was handled, and thus agreed upon, from 2 Chron. 19, 8, 9, 10. Deut. 17, 8-13. 1 Thes. 5, 12. etc. to this effect, viz. THat it is the duty of the Elders in the public administration of government, & in matters brought to the Church, to admonish the sinners and unrepentant (without requiring the people their consent first): Which admonition of the Elders being despised, the parties upon it are to be excommunicated. Our bound duty, in the Lord: and freedom according to his word: Both are to be respected, & observed aright. And all the brethren are bound to consent unto such just rebuke or admonition given by the Elders, as to the public doctrine of the Church: And consequently they are to assent unto all other the just administration of the Governors, they being able to justify the same by the word of God. And again, the people have liberty to except against and evince wherein the Elders do unjustly without warrant: As also in all good order without disturbance and under correction, they may ask resolution of their doubts. And so by this means all popular confusion is avoided, & liberty in the truth retained. Also after much and often reasoning about our practice and understanding of Mat. 18, 15, 16, 17. it was agreed by the Church, That we etred in the understanding of that Scripture, & namely in these particulars following: First, in that we have so understood those words (Tell the Church, etc.,) that they may not be understood of the jew Synedrion, nor of the Christian Presbytery or Eldership. And this moreover so, as some among us will by the word (Church) in that place have understood, men women and children in their own persons; meaning by children, such of them as are able to rejoice and sorrow with others. And we note this to be, of telling men women and children in their own persons: because otherwise it is granted, that the Congregation is told according to order and rules of government, in the telling of the Elders. (And here it is to be remembered, how it hath often been signified, that whether we understand those words (of telling the Church) thus, Tell the Congregation, to weet, according to the rules and order of government appointed by God in his word; Note here that the Elders sit in a public place, where all that will may come and be present, etc. or thus, Tell the Congregation of Elders not hindering or infringing any right or liberty of the brethren; these come both to one end, being rightly understood. And about these things have been alleged these & the like Scriptures: Mat. 18, 17. compared with Mat. 5, 22. Deu. 21, 18-20. Num. 35, 12, 24.25. with Deu. 19, 11-18. Josh. 20, 4-6. 1 Sam. 2, 25. Psal. 82, 1. Prov. 26, 26. in the LXX. compared with the Original. Deut. 1, 9-17. and 16, 18. and 17, 9-12. and 25, 7, 8, 9, with Ruth 4, 1-11. 2 Chron. 19, 5-11. Act. 6, 11-13. and 20, 17, 18. Rom. 12, 4-8. Luk. 12, 42. 1 Cor. 4, 1, 2. and 5. chap. with Lev. 20, 11. and Deut. 17, 4-7. 1 Cor. 6, 15. & 12, 28. 1 Thes. 5, 12-14. 1 Tim. 3, 5. and 5, 17-21. Heb. 13, 17. 1 Pet. 5, 14.) Secondly, we have erred in that we have so understood those words (Tell the Church, & if he hear not the Church, etc.) that the party offending should not, without taking consent of the people, be admonished by the Elders, whereupon to proceed against him: And that the sinner was not to be excommunicated, Viz. the admonition so given by the Elders as is afore said. for despising the admonition given by the Elders only. Touching which we have agreed heretofore, that we erred, from these Scriptures, 2 Chron. 19, 8.9.10. and 1 Thes. 5, 12. compared with Deut. 17. 8-12. etc. (And here again it is to be remembered, how it hath been showed that the speeches of telling the Elders, and of the casting out of persons for despising the admonition given by the Elders only, are to be understood in respect of ministration and government committed unto them by Christ and the Church, and not so to be taken, as to exclude the Church or Christ the head, for whom they do administer: but that we should always understand & observe these things, according as in Israel (in the due proportion and perpetual equity thereof) and according to the Scriptures here alleged, in this and the other particular aforesaid: and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth appertain unto them by the word of God: but to do all things according to the rules prescribed therein, as before hath been showed. To which end likewise it is to be remembered, how it hath been often signified and declared, that the power of the holy things of God given to the Church, is properly and primarily Christ's; secondarily and by communication the Churches; instrumentally and ministerially the Officers, who are the Ministers of Christ and the Church. And that thus we would still be understood. As also, that thus the admonition, being given as is aforesaid, may be said to be the admonition of Christ, of the Church, & of the Elders, in diverse respects, according as is said before.) Thirdly, concerning that rule in general, we have had this error among us, that it hath been understood to be a new rule for the time of the Gospel, which Israel had not. Whereabout may be considered & compared together these and the like Scriptures, as followeth: Mat. 18.15. with Lev. 19, 17. Prov. 25.9.10. Also, Mat. 18.16. with Deu. 19.15. and 17.6. joh. 8, 17. 2 Cor. 13, 1. And, Mat. 18, 17. with Mat. 5.22. Deut. 21.18, 19, 20. Numb. 35. 12-30. with Deut. 19. 12-17. etc. together with the other Scriptures mentioned here before in the other particulars, as in them may be seen. And for all these things, if any can show us better or otherwise by the word of God, we shall (God willing) be ready to yield unto it. THus was the Church's agreement about these things. Where note, that the first of these about admonition by the Elders, was sooner agreed upon, there being but few (in respect) that excepted and stood against it, when some of the chief of them yielded unto it. The latter, about our practice, & understanding of Mat. 18, 17. was very long debated among us: and after much reasoning had thereabout, we were often and earnestly urged by the Opposites, to give sentence and come to an issue about it. So in the end we agreed concerning it, as here before is set down. Which when we had done, they signified their dissent, and that they could no longer walk with us, practising accordingly. And so afterwards they went away and left us. And this is the very cause of their departing from us, whatsoever other thing be alleged by them or any other thereabout. And this I entreat the Reader well to observe, because otherwise, reading their foresaid differences and objections in the letter and printed copy, (whereabout they have busied themselves so much) he may take them for causes of their separation, which in deed were not. And whereas thus it pleaseth them to trouble men's minds with their positions, and intent in the setting of them down to cause disgrace to this poor Church (which they so unjustly have left, as if we had apostated and left the ancient saith) it shall be good for them to try and warrant those their positions and differences, as also their separation from us, by the touchstone of the word of God, as now by the answer thereunto given, they are occasioned to do. And withal, let them show out of the Scripture, how it can be warranted, that a minister who hath not himself received true baptism, may administer the Lords Supper; or that a people not having true baptism, may receive the Lords supper (as these have done): seeing themselves deny the baptism of the Church of Rome, By this opinion the Martyrs of later years had not true baptism, etc. & so consequently of other Churches in Apostasy, to be true baptism. If the example of Christ be considered, who first instituted and ministered the Lords supper himself, he had received true baptism before. Mat. 3, 16. with 26.26.27.28. The like may be observed about his Apostles, & namely about Paul, who was first baptized, afore he received or administered the Lords supper: Act. 9.18. with 20.11. and so in others from time to time. By which themselves may perceive what a continual profanation of God's holy things is among them, that so minister or receive, not having true baptism: and the Reader may discern how needful it had been for them, better to have thought of their positions and objections against us, afore they had thus written and given them forth. And this I thought good here to mention (together with that which is before noted about it) that both themselves and others may by this occasion duly consider of their estate and dealing. Pa●. 54 etc. And here for this purpose also, it will not be unfit in this place to annex the judgement of Mr. junius concerning the Church of Rome; as I said here before I would. Which the Readers shall do well duly to consider, both for their own better information, and for the better discerning and judging of the opinions and differences that are at this day-thereabout, not only among the Anabaptists, and such as are affected Anabaptistically, but even among Protestants also, ourselves and others, differing in some things about this matter. Thus therefore it is as followeth: THE JUDGEMENT OF M. FRANCIS JUNIUS concerning the Church of Rome. Lib. singulari de Eccles. contra Bellarminum, cap. 17. And in his works printed in fol. p. 1018.1019. etc. Of the Church of Rome. BEing to treat of the Church of Rome, we will first untie the knot of the equivocation of the word, before we determine of the thing itself; that all men may better perceive, what it is, that is at this day called in question amongst us. For very many are deceived with the homonymy or equivocation of the very word, and unawares ensnare themselves and others, by the ignorance of the deceitfulness in the speech. The church of Rome therefore is properly so called, or abusively, by the misterming or abusing of the name; both as it is called a church, & as it is called the Roman church. For as it is called the Roman church, sometimes it properly signifieth the company which is at Rome, as Paul spoke, writing to the Romans: sometimes it signifieth abusively, all the churches on the earth, that cleave to the Roman church, according to the form of doctrine, and constitution thereof. But we will treat of the church as it is indeed the church of Rome: and the things which we shall speak of this church, the same may the godly reader by proportion understand of the church so called by abuse of speech. Now as it is called a Church (which thing chief is in controversy) it is so termed three manner of ways: as a subject; as an accident growing to the subject; and as the subject together with that his accident. As a subject, it is the simple or single Church of Rome; As an accident growing upon the subject, is the papacy, or the papal hierarchy, which they call ecclesiastical. As a subject compounded with his accident, it is the church of Rome become papal, or under the Pope, that is to say corrupt, as I may so speak, by that lawless or unnatural shoot of the Pope, springing out of the stock. Now of each of these we will consider so briefly as may be, one after another. The Church of Rome when it is considered as a subject, it hath two parts; the pastors and the flock of Christ: for which church the Apostle of old gave thanks to God by jesus Christ, because her faith was published throughout the whole world. Rom. 1, 8. And for which we also daily ask of God in our prayers, that he would inform it to worship him by his spirit in the Gospel of his son, & to establish it in faith. Neither do we deny this subject to be at Rome, by the mercy of God, even at this day, because we trust there is God calling, persons called, and the calling itself yet in her: the meeting of which things together in one giveth being to a church, Chap. 8. etc. as before we showed. But touching the papacy, or the papal hierarchy, which they are wont to call ecclesiastical, we do not say that it is the church properly so called, but an accident growing unto the church, and such as covertly worketh against the life, and health of the Church. That it is not the church properly, is proved by the very definition of the papacy, and of the Church of God. For the papacy according to his general, is an order: the church is a company or an assembly. The papacy by his difference, is an order positive, human or from men, and nought; The church is an assembly divine or from God, by divine authority, with reason united together. Now those things which differ both in their general, and in their essential difference, and in their necessary conditions or properties, they cannot be one and the same thing. And that the papacy is an accident growing upon the Church, experience itself speaketh. For the subject is before his accident, which is contigent and separable: The church was many ages when the papacy was not: The papacy came to the church contingently (beside the being of the Church) and so may be separated from it, as at this time also there are churches, where the papacy is not, & there will be churches still hereafter without the papacy. Therefore the papacy is not the church, but it is an evil growing up in the church, a pestilence, a dropsy, the gangrene in the body, deceitfully working against the life and health of it, and therefore most noysomely eating up the lively and wholesome moisture of the church. But of this whole matter, we have spoken in the 3. Controversy, & in this fourth we are to speak of it hereafter. Therefore concerning the other which remaineth let us see, whether the papal Roman church, or that which is of the pope, be the church. The opinions which are about this matter are diverse. The popish generation cry out with full mouth, that it is absolutely the church. Others not beholding a different regard of the papacy, from that which is the church, deny it to be the church. We relying both on the nature of the thing, and on the authority of the Scripture, do put a difference. The nature of the thing doth teach, that the church is one thing, and that the papacy is another, as we spoke a little before. The authority of the Scripture teacheth the church, but it teacheth not the papacy: therefore they are diverse things. For they delude undoubtedly, I say they delude, which require at our hands one definition of the subject & of the accident, as of one singular thing, or obtrude it on us. For thus must we say, The papal church, as it hath that in it which belongeth to the definition of a church, it is a church; but as it hath in it the evil grown unto it, which we call the papacy, in that respect it is not a church, but a faulty, deflowered and a corrupt church, and drawing on to destruction. Let us make it plain by a similitude. The body itself is one thing, the corruption or putrefaction in the body another thing, and the corrupted or puttrefied body another thing. The body is the subject, the corruption or putrefaction is the evil accident cleaving unto the subject, the corrupted or putrefied body is compounded of them both. There is both the body, and putrefaction in the putrefied body. So is a body that is swollen with the water, causing the dropsy. Both are together, and yet so together, as either one of the two, or both together must needs perish. If the nature of the body be stronger, the corruption and dropsy water decayeth: but if the corruption or dropsy prevail, there is most certain destruction of them both. So is the church of God: for in itself it is the body of jesus Christ. If a deadly disease grow upon it, both are then together, the body and the disease in the body. If the purging medicine of the grace of God (for nothing is here natural) be of the more efficacy, the disease than is vanquished and decayeth: but if the disease prevail, then both of them (the body and the disease) must needs come to an end. For such is the condition of the disease: it both feedeth itself on the body decaying, and destroyeth itself together with the body. After this manner therefore do we esteem of the church of Rome, which they call the papal or popish Church. There is the Church, there is the papacy, and there is the papal Church. As there is the Church, it is the subject of God: as there is the papacy, there is the disease of man: as it is the papal church, there is a fight between the church and the papacy, that will destroy either one of them apart, or both together. If God shall give it the purging medicine of his grace, by means whereof the papacy, the accidentary evil decay and perish; it is well: but if the papacy, that most faulty and corrupt order, and deadly accident prevail, it will bring destruction to both of them, both to the church and to itself, by the judgement of God. And this now in the memory of our fathers and our own we see to have befallen many churches, which clave fast unto that Roman church. For when it seemed good unto God more clearly to enkindle the torch of the gospel, and to scatter the papal smokes by his spirit, there remained churches returning by his grace to a better constitution and stronger health, & that which is of the pope departeth vanishing away through his own corruption: but when as God sent not that purging medicine of his divine grace into the body of any church, than the popish corrupt blood got strength more and more, which will be to that church deadly destruction, unless God of his mercy provide a remedy. In the remembrance and conscience of this benefit, do our churches fitly sing with the Prophet, Blessed, be the Lord which hath not given us for a pray unto their teeth. Our soul is escaped even as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are delivered. Our help is in the name of the Lord, etc. Psal. 124. Wherhfore in my judgement they speak preposterously, who ask whether the church be in the papacy: because on the contrary it should be asked, whether the papacy be in the church. For the subject is not in the, accident, but the accident in the subject, whose being, is an in being, or to be in a thing, as men commonly speak. And that the papacy is in the church, as the order or estate of apostasy in the house and city of God, is as certain, as that of the Apostle is certain, 2 Thes. 2. that the man of sin, the son of perdition sitteth in the temple of God, with his whole order or rank of apostates: and not on the other side, that the temple of God consisteth in that order and number of apostates, which is a thing most strange & furthest off. But the term of the papacy taken doubly and aequivocally, deceiveth them in such fort as here before we showed concerning the Roman popish Church. For under the name of the papacy (which is a foul corrupt order) they comprehend the subject itself, which is annoyed with that corruption, not distinguishing aright between these things. As therefore, if any should deny that to be a body, which lieth in a deadly sort swollen with the water of the dropsy, or should affirm that water which choketh the body, to be the body itself, should in both these be deceived in his judgement: so also are both deceived, as well they which deny it to be the church, because the papacy is in it, as they which avouch the papacy to be the church itself, which we have before disproved. The papacy is a poison in the church, which poison must needs be vomited out, if it will be preserved: or else the church will be extinguished by it, if it suffer that poison to prevail, and possess all the veins of the body. But how can she be the church, (will some say) in which the papacy is? To wit, as there is the body, in which a disease worketh. But because the papacy is a deadly corruption, the more that the papacy getteth strength, the more the church is weakened: the increase of the one, is the decrease of the other. And hence it cometh to pass, that in the churches which are called popish, some are more healthy, & some more unhealthie than others: the more healthy are those, which have less of the papacy, & more of the church: and those are the more unhealthie which have more of the papacy & less of the church: and of this kind, I doubt not that church to be, which at this day is at Rome. For it had long ago given up the ghost, if God by the imposition of his grace and long suffering had not nourished and kept it warm. Notwithstanding that we may give content unto their minds, which do not yet reach unto these things, or think that they are more subtilely then truly spoken of the church which they call the papal or popish church: let us answer this question in few words, from the regard of all particular churches, as they are among men, or in consideration of things human. Every church, which in deed is a Church, is considered two ways, on God's behalf (as they speak) and on our behalf. On God's behalf, it is altogether a church, wheresoever there is found a company called of God, with his calling by the spirit and the holy Scripture, and the ministery of persons ordained for holy things, and divine actions. On our behalf there is no Church at all, (although it be so of God, as we have said) to which there doth not cleave corruption, concerning the persons, things, actions, and finally the whole ministery of man ordained by God. And that which is on God's part, is not taken away by our default, so long as it seemeth good unto the Lord, to acknowledge it for his Church, & call it with his calling, by the spirit, & holy Scripture, & the ministery. For shall the unbelees of men, (saith the Apostle, Ro. 3.3.) make the saith of God without effect? shall the weakness of man make void the truth of God? or his imperfection the perfection of God? far be it off: yea let God be true & every man a liar, saith the Apostle in the same place. We will make the matter plain by an example and similitude out of the words of jeremy, chap. 3. A wife being filthy with adulteries, if her husband will pardon her, and consent to receive her, and to devil with her, she abideth still the wife of her husband, not by her own deed done (for she hath broken wedlock, what in her was) but by the benefit or goodness of her husband. So a Church overflowing not only with lighter infirmities, but also with heavy adulteries, on her part in deed should cease to be a wife, but she ceaseth not on her husband's part. For touching the election, as the Apostle saith, Rom. 11.28. she is beloved for the father's sakes, speaking of the church of the jews. It is a church so long as God calling her proclaimeth that which is in jer. 3.13. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. Turn, o backsliding people, saith the Lord, for I am married unto you, & I will take you etc. It is so long a church, as God protesting calleth upon it departing from him and being rebellious, as it is in Esa. 50, 1. Where is the bill of your mother's divercement, wherewith I put her away? or who is there of my creditors to whom I sold you? etc. The church then at length ceaseth to be a church, when God ceaseth to call it back, & taketh away the evidence of that holy marriage, that is, the holy Scripture, out of the hand of the adulteres, and her that is stubborn, testifying that the matrimony is dissolved on his part, and so receiveth the covenant of grace unto himself. It is not for any man, to deny that to be a church, which God calleth a church. Neither is it for any man, to call that a church, which God, having given the bill of divorce, and taken away the draft of the marriage contract, denieth so to be. And after this manner do we esteem of the Church in which the papacy is. God calleth her with his calling, by his spirit, and word, and the public records of that holy marriage (which we call the holy Scripture) and the ministery, and things, and holy actions, which before we have briefly reckoned up. These things do remain to that church most manifestly, on God's behalf. But in that on the behalf of men all these things and holy actions, together with the very persons themselves, abound and overflowe, with most grievous & deadly corruptions, that is the sin of men, not the fault of God; whose grace & truth is perfected in infirmity. On God's part, she is yet called Hammi, my people, and Ruchama, finding mercy, which most truly on her part, might be called Lo hammi, not my people, and Lo ruchama, not obtaining mercy, as we read in Hosea the Prophet. But we rely upon the mercy of God, and according to his grace revealed, we speak our mind, or we give our sentence concerning a church erring and going astray. But this Church hath every thing in it corrupt. I confess it. But in that it hath all the divine things in the Scriptures, it is of God: in that it hath them all corrupt, that is of itself: in that it hath all the divine things, it is a church, in that it hath the same all corrupt, it is a corrupt church. The church is not taken away by corruption, unless it be total (as they speak) which they call destruction. A corruption that is in part doth not take away a Church, but weaken it. The Church of Rome hath all things corrupt, but not altogether: this is not a destruction, but is to be called a corruption of it in part. For (to prosecute these heads particularly, which we have briefly noted in the consideration of the Church) God by the alone presence of himself calling, doth lay the foundation of the Church, in Christ the head thereof. The church of Rome addeth another foundation to this foundation, and to this head another new head (whereupon it is called papal or popish) wherein it may likewise rest. The calling is to God alone; in the church of Rome there is calling to others with God, and the calling upon them. Here is calling by the spirit and Scripture alone, whence it receiveth the ministery, & delivereth nothing more, than that which it hath received from the Lord: there it receiveth a ministery from the spirit of Christ, & of the Pope, from the Scripture, and the ragged traditions of men: here finally the persons, things and actions are carried, according to the doctrine of the Spirit, & the Scripture only: there all things are taken and exercised out of the Pope's changeable shop, and at his beck (as they say) they stand and fall. So all the marks on God's behalf are in it: but for itself, on it own part (as they say) there is no mark entire, no mark that is not corrupt by the papal poisonful sorcery, and the order of all things most miserably perverted. For which cause in Lions in France, a certain Friar did merrily preach to the people, when he said the Hugonots (for so they are called in France) did consent with the church of Rome in all their articles of faith, but there was one shrewd word, the word Only, at the crack whereof war was enkindled, for they believe only what the rule of faith hath out of the holy Scriptures: but the church of Rome requireth more unto faith than is either contained in the rule of faith, or in the holy Scriptures, because such is the authority of the Church. These things being well understood, all men will easily perceive how that church, in respect of God or on God's part, is yet a church; but of itself is most corrupt, & very near to destruction. But here do arise two doubts & difficulties, by which the minds of many are troubled. The first doubt is, what we are to judge of the members of that church: The latter what the duty of them is who are in that church, and see the great corruptions thereof. To the first question we answer on this manner. A threefold judgement had need meet together in this cause: the first, of truth; the second, of charity; the third, of prudence or wisdom. The judgement of truth is of the common condition of the church, by which we judge from the calling of God, that as yet she is a church. The judgement of charity is of the several members of the church, by which we presume they be members of the church, whilst they are called with the calling of God, and are in this way as David calleth it Psal. 2. The judgement of prudence or wisdom, is that by which we discern and distinguish persons, things and actions divine from human, good ones from evil, true ones from false, and the degrees of these also amongst themselves. For as of things & actions, so also of persons some are corrupting through ignorance infirmity, or malice wholly, or in part; others are corrupted, even in the simplicity of their hearts as the Scripture speaketh: and of these there are a great number, of whom it were ungodly to esteem that they were not of the church of God. Of such as do corrupt we must take heed, Mat. 7. of the corrupted, who yet are still corrupted we must have compassion. But the Church verily is not to be judged of the manner of either of these. for Christ saith not, ye shall not know the Church, but by their fruits of doctrine and life ye shall know them, Mat. 7.20. And without doubt, they do very unwisely who judge of the truth of a church, by the particular life or doctrine of any men, who ever they be, especially of private men: for the calling of God maketh the church, not the assenting answer of the men that are in it: as on the other side the church ceaseth not to be a church for the refusal, or denial of men, wheresoever the calling of God is. Now let us come to the second demand. What is the duty of those (wilt thou say) that are in the Popish Church, and see the grievous corruptions of it? Their duty is such as of those children, which devil together with their adulterous mother: for God used this similitude in Esaie and jeremy, as we have seen before. A wise son will even from his heart abhor the sin of his mother, he will with speech and sign call back his mother from evil, and he will abstain himself from it: and in all things he will cleave to his father, he will stand to his judgement, he will obey his will: and while he can by reason of his mother, he will cleave unto her, next after his father: but while by reason of her he can not do it with good conscience, for the spiritual and bodily injury of her, Closet or Inner room. he will betake himself into the chamber of his father, where also the church is the mother of us all. Gal. 4.26. For this is not a good consequent, if one departed from this or that church, therefore he doth altogether depart from the church. He but trifles who doth so from a particular, conclude universally. A part of the flesh if it be divided or cut asunder from another part by a wound received, is not strait way to be thought to be separate or cut off from the whole body: for it is cut asunder, and the mouth of the wound openeth, but neither part is therefore disjoined from the body. A godly son therefore aught to cleave to his father and mother jointly, so long as with good conscience he can: but because he cannot with sound faith and conscience have fellowship with the unfrutefull works of darkness, Eph. 5, 11. he rather leaving his mother, cleaveth to God his father, & our Lord jesus Christ, then that he will defile himself with those foul deeds of his mother. And this did our ancestors religiously, whom the popish tyranny for some ages hath exercised. The godly which were at Rome, and other where in the church which they call the Roman church abusively, first learned to abhor even from their soul, the sins of their mother, when once they began to have right understanding; by words and signs they modestly called her back from her naughty deeds, while she would bear them, they carefully abstained themselves from all communication of evil, yet in all things cleaving to their father, from whom, in whom, by whom, & for whom are all things, standing to his judgement, and obeying his will: finally they did so long cleave to their mother next after their father, whilst by her they could so do with entire faith and conscience, and their own salvation. But when they could not longer with good faith and conscience so do, by reason of the violent tyranny, and the spiritual & corporal injury of their furious mother, then being ashamed with her shamefulness & resting silent, they betook themselves into their father's bosom and his inner room, albeit that she pursued them outrageously: lest they being ashamed of her, should be said to shame her, as strumpets are usually wont to do. For which causes, I do humbly beseech God the Father of our Lord jesus, that he would both by his saving calling inform, direct and care for his church, and whatsoever belongeth to his church, & that he would also teach every one that is in it his truth, and the truth of his church: and that he would so work, as they wisely abstaining from all evils, especially from those which the son of perdition, and author of the apostasy hath brought in, and taking heed of the spirit of lies, & the efficacy of his error, they may religiously cleave unto the Father and his good things, in every of them, and to their mother next after the father (or so far as she accordeth with the Father): that increasing in his truth, piety, faith & love they may bestow and employ all their studies to the edification of the church, the salvation of all, and the glory of that our heavenly Father. etc. God the Father and the Lord jesus Christ, by that eternal spirit of his eternal truth, bring to pass, that the wiles of Satan being driven away, we may all grow daily in Christ, in the church, and in the truth of Christ and the Church, and that we may more and more confirm one another in love unfeigned, to his glory and the common salvation of us all. Amen. HItherto Mr. junius. With whom agreeth Amandus Polanus, noting some errors of Bellarmine's about Antichrist) in his Commentary upon Ezech. 39 at the end thereof, pag. 733. Where he saith thus, The Messiah of the jews is not Antichrist, but a false Christ, whereas the great Antichrist, of whom the Scriptures foretell, shall profess himself to be a Christian, and under the name of Christ fight against Christ, because he must sit in the Temple of God, 2 Thes. 2.4. in the Temple (I say) not jewish or at jerusalem, but Christian, that is, in the Christian Church: as chrysostom teacheth, and Theophylact, Ambrose, Hilarius, Hierome, Theodoret, Oecumenius, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas also. See the testimonies (saith he) in our Catholic Symphony, chap. 23. Thes. 3. And Bartholomeus Keckermannus, speaking in a treatise of his, of the properties of the church, inferreth thus thereupon, and saith: Now if we examine the Popish church according to these proprieties, it will appear that it is not a pure Church, but very corrupt, like as a rotten apple is in deed an apple, but corrupt: & as a man corrupted with the plague is a man, but not a sound man. Keckerman. Praeparat. ad sacram synaxin. pag. 83. And diverse other the like sayings out of these and other writers of this age might be alleged, but these may suffice: specially seeing we build not our saith on man, but only on the word of God. Yet we thought it not amiss to show what others at this day think of this matter: not only for the reason noted herebefore at the beginning, but because also we doubt not, but by this means the light of the truth will be more cleared, for the better information of such as love the truth in sincerity; and the folly of others more repressed, who (being carried with prejudice or malice against us) open their mouths wide not only against us, but even against the truth itself that is testified by us. Whom we desire that even for their own good they will be persuaded now at length better to examine and ponder all the matters aforesaid, then as yet they have done. ANd thus have I hitherto noted down such things, as concern our public estate, and the foresaid division so much spoken of in this book. Now although for the personal injuries & reproaches abounding in the same book, I had thought to have passed them over with the Advertisement formerly given thereabout: yet seeing we understand, that both here & in our own country we are greatly abused about M. Studley in particular, and some matters concerning him, whereabout himself also is much traduced: I have therefore thought it not amiss to insert somewhat here concerning him more particularly. And this I do the rather, because that which I do annex hereabout, is his own Answer, made (at our earnest entreaty) by himself, who said that otherwise he would have rested in silence, possessing his soul with patience, and committing the matter to the Lord. And this it is as followeth. M. STUDLEYS' ANSWER TO THE ACCUSATIONS AND objections printed against him by Lawn and his fellows in the book aforesaid. A Wicked man diggeth up evil, and in his lips is like burning fire. Prov. 16.27. Mine enemy hath sharpened his eyes against me. job. 16.9. They have opened their mouths upon me, and smitten me on the cheek in reproach: they gather themselves together against me. job. 16.10. All which malicious carriage and unsufferable dealing, (of some heretofore, and these four persons (Lawn, Fowler, Saunders and Bulward) now lately against me also, I could have borne in silence, and committed my cause and their dealing to God, the judge of all men's actions, and the rewarder of every one, according to their deeds. Yet in some other respect, as heretofore I have given my answer to others, so do I now here again, to some special things, written by these men in reproach of me: And namely, to those eight articles, which were given for the deposing of me from office: other particulars scattered in their book besides these, I will not trouble myself nor the Reader about them with any particular answers to them: neither would I with these, had they not been brought into our congregation and there handled. And for aught I yet mind, I purpose hereafter, not to make any reply to such wicked carriage and railings of men, but stand to the rules ecclesiastical, appointed by Christ in his Church, & the ordinance of God, which he hath set up in the power and authority of Magistracy in the common wealth, and there make my answer to whatsoever men have against me: For who that beareth the heart and mind of a man, would not rather die by the sword of the Magistrate, then to be smitten with the Machiavellian tongues of base companions, whose vile dealings by this odious carriage of theirs, makes as if there were no lawful authority to examine & judge the actions of men, by good and wholesome laws, but as though things were left in confusion, to be swayed after the lusts of envious persons for the devouring one of another. And what unsufferable abuse these men offer unto sacred thrones by such disordered courses of theirs, I leave to be judged of those that are prudent. And for whatsoever these men have spoken and written of me, were it no prejudice to the truth I profess, nor to myself for holding the same, I would willingly adventure into my own Country, (whether some of these my adversaries are gone and where they printed this their book) to call and entreat for law and justice about these matters: but things standing as they do (which God when he seethe good can reform) let men in the mean time ride upon my head, by making book after book to my reproach & infamy, I will bear them on my shoulders, and repenting of my sins, with amendment of life, I will in faith and patience, look up to Christ my redeemer, the author and finisher of my faith, who for my sake and the rest of his elect, endured the cross, and despised the shame, and is set at the right hand of the throne of God: from whence I expect him, to receive me with all his into eternal glory, and to recompense these men (except they repent) with shame and confusion, according to their deeds. Now follow their articles, and my answer to them. For his filthiness used to his wives daughter, Article 1. with that most ungodly allegation for the defence thereof. etc. The first part of this Article, I did long ago confess, & also by this occasion, I do here again acknowledge, Answer. that my behaviour towards her, was sinful and unseemly, yet for aught that ever I did to her, (howsoever some uncharitably, and others maliciously have written and spoken) was far from carnal copulation. The second part of this article, touching the allegation, is false. The author of it, being now none of us, was yet sent unto (when I was dealt withal in public about these things) to come and prove this his accusation: which if he refused so to do, it should be upon himself as a false charge; and he refused & would not come; which if he had, I could, and (through God's assistance) I can prove it to be a slander. For writing a most ungodly letter, containing in it many vile and ungodly speeches, Artic. 2. some of it being in most abominable verses. etc. I written to N. three letters: to two of them he replied, the third which is this here spoken of, Answer. he answered not: but taking his advantage, at some unsavoury words, & unwarrantable speeches therein, which unadvisedly slipped from me, being moved (I confess) with the indirect answers he gave to my first two letters: he taking this advantage, made a journey from Leyden to Amsterdam, to deal with me for it: and so did, himself first, and then with two witnesses; who because I would not (nor for aught I yet see I ever can) acknowledge the whole letter to be slanderoous, they brought me to the public Congregation, where I did acknowledge my sin for all such words and speeches which was objected to me for evil in that letter, & also for the manner of writing as I did. And after this I wrote a fourth letter to him, very short and brief, out of which he could take no advantage, for than I should soon have heard from him; neither is he able, as I am persuaded, without disadvantage to himself, to give a plain & direct answer to it, therefore he is content to bury it in silence. And touching those verses which so maliciously they speak of; and which were but a few; I have (for the evil in them laid unto my charge) made my acknowledgement for the same, and that in public. But as these men have set them down, with as much odiousness as their corrupt affections could afford, and as others may gather thereby, I can not so acknowledge, without great wronging of myself: for some have been with me, who also in the like general terms (as is used by these adversaries) have spoken very hardly of those verses. Whereupon I asked them, if they had seen or heard them: they said no, but by the report of others. I prayed them tell me what particular evil they thought to be in them: they shook the head, & with sighing said, they thought they were filthy vile verses. I asked again, if they thought them vile and filthy, in cursing, blaspheming, and such like: they said no, but in ribaldry and unchaste speeches; hereupon I did repeat them, and then asked what now they thought of them: they demanded of me, if they were no other than as I had related; I told them that so they were & no other. At which, they pausing a while, with admiration said; undoubtedly then are you exceedingly abused. Wherhfore it lies me upon, to be wary what answer I give upon general terms, knowing it is no new thing, by wring the nose to force out blood, nor to use and love so to use all words that may destroy; wherein these my four adversaries, with their contrivers and composers of that their malicious railing book, have showed themselves Satan like skilful. Willing I am always to acknowledge my sin, as it is indeed: and otherwise to do, is neither pleasing to God, nor comfort to my own soul: And this I know, that the subject and ground, whereupon my letters with these verses were written, and whereof some of themselves at Leyden, have thus written also, as is to be seen under their their own hands; viz. that the matters between N and Ms. N are very weighty, and apparent it is, that either he or she are in grievous iniquity: therefore I know as before I have said, when these matters between N. and Ms. N. are tried out, which are the ground of all my letters to him, my writings will be either worse censured (if so it were possible) then now they be, or more favourably construed by unpartial judges, than yet they are. My desire then is, there were an end hereof; which till there be, little flies & knats, may hang fast in the spider's web, whilst great flies and wasps break through and get away; but when there is an issue of these things, the apparent grievous iniquity above mentioned, which yet lies smothered and hid, will follow after to be found on some, as my sins about the handling of these matters have gone before and been urged on me. Wherhfore if no other will take in hand to find out in whon that grievous iniquity is, which lies but between two persons, what if myself do assay once again to do it? always provided (through the grace of God) to take more heed to my words and speeches then heretofore I have done. What (I say) if thus I do? will any be offended with me, seeing the truth or falsehood of the reproach (that about these matters lies upon me) can not be rightly known, till these things be ended. And beside, the woman herself, when she departed from Amsterdam, to return to England, did require of me (as before the Lord) not to let these matters rest, till the truth were found out: also seeing I can show under writing, both of his and hers, touching these affairs, more I am persuaded then any others also; I see not why any should mislike of my purpose to have yet further dealing in these things. If any can show me sufficient reasons why I should not, I am willing to forbear; otherwise I purpose (God assisting me) to go on as I have said, having those reasons for my ground which above I have all edged. For teaching many wicked and ungodly songs and rhymes unto children, Artic. 3. when he kept school, in stead of catechizing them. etc. When I kept a school of some few small children, Answ. (I speak the truth) I commonly taught them day by day their ordinary lessons eight times over; besides instructing and catechizing them in principles of religion, & also making them learn some sentences from the Scripture without book, and not many (no, nor yet any) wicked ungodly songs & rhymes, as here is falsely alleged. And one of these men themselves repeating one (and I suppose the worst he could) which he said some of the children affirmed I taught them, I told him as the truth is, I never heard it till it came out of his mouth: the party was Robert Bulward. For disclosing the counsel of the Eldership to Marie May in some prrticulars, Artic. 4. as we can plainly prove in time and place, etc. This being false, Answ. as it is, they will never find time and place to prove it. For his many lascivious attempts, to a young maid now of late, Artic. 5. with his beastly behaviour, to entice her to satisfy his own lust, unmeet to be named, etc. For my evil carriage to that maid (about two years since) I confess to my own shame, Answ. that I have done foolishly once, yea twice: but I trust, through God's grace, I shall never do so again; yet as these enemies, both here and elsewhere in their book have set it down, it is a false calumniation; for (speaking of it with sorrow and grief of heart, and unfeignedly repenting for it) I do acknowledge, that though my behaviour to her was bad & unsemely, yet not with any intention of the act, as these men intimate, neither spoke I so much as one unchaste word to her at any time. That which I did, and only intended to do, was clapping her only. Therefore as I have often spoken, and here now set it under my hand, as the truth is? by any thing that ever I did unto her, I know not whether she be male or female: And concerning the act itself, this I say further, which all the world could not compel me to speak, neither would I have it a precedent, that any should be pressed to do the like, (no not any of these my four adversaries, lest some of them who know what I say, should fall into a greater sin than the act itself): for that which here I utter, it is of my own accord, which I need not to do, yet I do it, and this it is; That in all my life to this present day, I have not known any woman, young nor old, married wife, widow, nor maid, save only my lawful wives (having had two) and not them neither, till I was lawfully married to them: nor to any other had I ever thought or word, in that respect: and for the truth hereof, I take the Lord to witness, who only knoweth the heart, and will bring the way of the wicked upon his head, and justify the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness. Let these men now, and all others, who have either written or spoken herein, most unjustly, know they shall give account for the same unless God give them repentance, which I desire may be given, to my greatest adversaries. Moreover, whereas here they insinuate, and in other places of their book have spoken more plainly, of the discovering of my nakedness, and the maids seeing it; I testify, it is more than I can say for certain, whether she did see me or no; but considering how our houses stood, with the windows & doors one over against the other, & knowing in what case, myself sometime by occasion was in my own house, it mought be she did so see me, & it mought be otherwise: yet for any word or deed, that passed from me to her, I could (were it not for the circumstances aforesaid) directly affirm, she never so saw me. But notwithstanding all this I have said, I do yet freely confess, that what was wanting in me, to have had more heed & care unto myself, for the avoiding of her or any other so to have seen me, was my great transgression, praying God to forgive me it, as all other my sins whatsoever. There were brought sixteen articles against him, to prove the tenor & course of his life to be partial, Artic. 6. whereof two were proved, & acknowledged by him, and the residue of sixteen were confessed in general, etc. There were fifteen persons, that factiously had their meetings sundry times, Answer. to cousult and plot against me, determining with and among themselves, to have dismissed me from my office. Here was a beginning to tread the path-waie unto popular government, the very bane to all good order in church and common weal: and for the ground of their proceeding against me, they framed fourteen (not sixteen as these men untruly say) matters against me, some of seven years old, others of less time, some of them either ended in the church, or passed by of the church, and others of them private matters, never dealt in by any ●●le: which caridad and dealing of heirs, being observed, and for the further finding out of their evil herein, it was demanded of them, who were the authors of these their meetings, and how often, and where they met, which they refusings to show, were therefore, and for these their meetings & evil carriage in these matters, rebuked by the church, & they willed that had any thing against me; to deal with me by order & rule; which yet they never did: One of them there was (who since is departed this life) that came unto me & acknowledged his fault, affirming that himself had nothing against me, but was chawen by the rest, only to give his consent to their proceed, which he the more willingly yielded unto, having (as he manifested) a spleen against me: which he said, some of these men knowing, did by urging the same, work upon him to do that he did: and he said moreover, that if a scholar had reproved him as I did (which was of unsound doctrine of somewhat he spoke in public) he could well have borne it, but I that was none, to reprove him that was one, this made him to stomach me, which he confessed was evil in him, and so said he (as now he plainly saw) was the dealing of those men towards me, which he perceived to be rather of malice, than any just cause they had against me. Further, whom these men were rebuked, & willed to deal with me as is aforesaid, I prayed them to give me a copy of the things they had framed against me, promising, that when I had considered of them, if I saw any thing in which I had offended, I would freely of myself acknowledge the same: but this which was so reasonable a request, I could never get of them: which plainly shows both the evil dealing of the refusers thus to do, & the falsehood of these men, who have printed that two of the matters brought against me, were proved & acknowledged by me, Pag. 15 & 16. & the rest in general manner I confessed: That which I confessed, was only this here following; There was one particular about judith ●●●●der, which they pressed as hard against me, as their hatred was towards me, which was to the uttermost of their power, & I as well as I could, stood for my own defence, & thus, much time, and many words being spent, one of the brethren spoke to this effect, A.P. viz. that a man mought be said to be partial, either by being nor able to judge or discern aright the cause he handleth, & so err in the sentence he giveth: Or being well able to judge of a matter, yet through negligence, & not using that care & diligence to search into it as he ought, the matter is shut up with that unequal judgement, which otherwise would not so have been: To which I answered to this effect, That if the word partial (for to get this word from me was now all their strife) would in any of those respects, satisfy them, I would not stand to justify myself, but that in such regard I mought be partial. Hereupon, my accusers were quiet, and rested in this my acknowledgement; and no other, nor otherwise, were any of their fourteen articles either proved by them or confessed by me. There was also an exliortation, given to myself by the Pastor, that I should take heed to the office, which I had received in the Lord, to fulfil it, etc. And this is the very sum & effect of the handling of these matters, and the end and issue whereunto they were brought: & by which manner of ending them, my adversaries had more favour than they were worthy, & myself sustain greater reproach than in these things I have deserved: but it is part of my manifold crosses wherewith the Lord hath exercised me in this world, and I will bear it. And thus having made my answer to this sixth article in their book objected, I leave to indifferent judges, to weigh how falsely & enviously these four men have dealt with me also herein. Also, Article 7. at the same time, it was proved, that he took part with judith Holder in known evil, etc. 〈◊〉 this article, Answer. being like the former, that is, false and malicious, proveth these men to partake with Satan, & by him to be set on work to lie slander & calunniate, according to his and their own evil dispositions. For counseling Marie May to lie with her husband before they were married, Artic. 8. etc. These turbulent & outrageous persons, have taken counsel of Machivel, Answ. to disgrace men, by clamours reproaching, knowing that such things, being once cast upon men, though never so false, and by never so vile creatures, yet will ever after, leave some blot & stain behind them; therefore have they also in this their eight & last article, besprinkled me with the poison of asps under their tongues, by falsely slandering me herein, as the Lord knoweth, And these unconscionable men cannot be ignorant, how the woman herself hath in our public congregation, affirmed, I never gave her that counsel: besides Clement Saunders, (if not all the rest of them) doth know for certain, that another of the Elders with myself brought her to the Church, for her transgressing in that action. And now that these my deadly adversaries have showed their malice against me to the full, as their detestable and abominable book (so esteemed & spoken of by many) doth proclaim unto the world: let them not think, but that themselves are such, whose sins are with & before the Lord, the all-seeing God, and most just judge: to whom for all their wicked speakings I leave them either for mercy or for judgement, according to his good will & pleasure. And touching all & every one of the particulars both little and great, with their long & loathsome comparison between me & another, wherewith they have reproached me in their book, they are either mere lies, or falsely related, or wickedly perverted, & not one of them otherwise: save only those my sins, which I have in this my answer confessed. Which sins of mine, as I know & am assured, the Lord hath forgiven, so do I humbly beseech all those to whose ears the offence of my sins past are come, that they also would forgive me, as themselves do expect in faith, to be pardoned of God, for all their sins and trespasses. Blessed is the man that judgeth wisely of the poor: the Lord shall deliver them in the time of trouble; etc. Psal. 41.1. etc. Daniel Studley. THus (Christian Reader) I have showed thee M. Studleys' answer, drawn by himself. By which thou mayest perceive the ungodly dealing of these men against him. As for others among us, whom they have also abused in like sort, see the Inquirie and Answer of Thomas Whites book, Pag. 28.29.30.36 37.39.40.43.44.45 46 50.51.61. etc. who published diverse of the same things and other the like, as are here now printed again. And what should I do then repeating the same & like answers to the same or like objections? seeing also Thomas White was so plainly convinced of slander & bad dealing therein, as he could never after open his mouth to reply or disprove the answer given: Yet these men would make the world believe, that he had sufficiently answered the matter by his attorney, & brought proof of the things by witnesses & depositions before the Magistrates, for which himself was never able to stand & reply again after the answer aforesaid was published. And therefore whereas they insert here (pag. 26. & 27.) certain things extracted out of Whites book: Lawns discovery. etc. thou art to know that they are the very things, for which some of us so abused, did bring him before the Magistrates for justice: by whom how he was rebuked is as well known to us, as it is unto all that he was left unpunished & unprosequ●●ed otherwise than he deserved. pag. 28. And where they bring out a court roll (as they say) that the judges gave default for not appearing against Francis johnson and Henry Ainsworth, The opposant was Tho. White. and in regard thereof discharged the Opposant of the Arrest done on his person, condemning the Arresters in costs and charges of the suit. etc. I am certainly informed by the parties themselves yet living here (namely M. johnson and M. Ainsworth) that they never arrested Th. White: & so neither were nor could be condemned in costs & charges of the suit. And that such others of us as did indeed arrest & bring him for justice before the Magistrates (as is aforesaid) did never hear of being condemned in costs & charges, afore they saw it in this printed book. By which such as are wise will observe the dealing & carriage of those things. Which we lean unto God: omitting to speak what we could further of these & other matters in this book of theirs. Thus (gentle Reader) I have given thee this advertisement concerning the book aforesaid, which myself & others of us thought good at this time to be done. Which we would not have thee so take it, as if we would still follow such persons with answer after answer, as now we have done the second time. We must remember both those Proverbs of Solomon, which he hath, Prov. 26.4.5. one for answering, and an other for not answering: as I noted here before in the beginning. Neither let any that love the truth be moved or discouraged with the contumelies, oppositions, or other persecutions that we or other the people of God are still subject unto. If such reproachful courses should have been taken against jacobs' family, against the people of Israel, against the Churches of Corinth, Galatia, & others heretofore or at this day, what volumes & invectines might be written and spread over the world from age to age? And if sins and sinners of all sorts, should not fall out and be found in the Church, why appointed God such laws and punishments for sinners in Israel, & why hath he given censures to his church still to be had and continued therein from time to time? Finally, if when men have sinned, neither the repentance of the penitent, nor the censures upon the impenitent shall be regarded or rested in, but that both the persons and churches that are careful so to walk shall be thus abused, besides all the lies & slanders annexed with all; what may we think, but that we have to deal with beasts rather than men, or with Cham's, Doegs, Schemeis, Rabshakees, Sanballats, and the like. And what can such look for if they repent not, but that (as Peter said) they shall utterly perish in their own corruption: and (as David said) that God will take & pluck them out of the Tabernacle, and root them out of the land of the living? Selah. 2 Pet. 2, 12. Psal. 52.5. The Lord our God the God of glory & father of mercy work all our things to his praise & furtherance of his truth, make us partakers of his grace & mercy in Christ; turn all the enmity and cursing of men into a favour and blessing upon us; increase in us the knowledge & obedience of his will in all godliness; strengthen us in & for his truth unto the end; & after we have suffered here a while, bring us to his heavenly rest & kingdom for ever. Amen. 1 Tim. 4.10. For this cause we both labour & suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. jam. 1.12. Blessed is the man that endureth tentation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. ERRATA Pag. 17. l. 11. read Otherwhere. & l. 24. & in all other places of the book, where there is speech of the printed copy of the Articles or Objections about the division, understand or put in the margin, Lawns discovery of schism, pag. 79. etc. Pag. 21. l. 1. themselves. Pag. 28. l. 19 more members. Pag. 30. l. 20. Mat. 21.42. and lin. 21. Eph. 2.12. P. 36. l. 28. & 21.19.20. & 22. 15-19, & 25.7, 8, 9 Ios. 20. P. 37. l. 16. & Psa. 82.1. Deut. 19 P. 44. l. 7. questions. P. 59 l. 17. & 14.1. and in the margin, Rom. 1.8. P. 64. l. 10.33.44, and l. 17.14.1. & l. 22. 1 Pet. 3.18. P. 65. l. 3. Ezec. 29, 3. Rev. 13.1, 2. P. 76. l. 3. conceived. P. 94. l. 26. by the Church, whereupon afterward they divided themselves from us. P. 102. l. 14. contingent.