A WARNING FOR Worldlings,  
Or a comfort to the godly, and a terror to the wicked.  
Set forth Dialogue wise, between a Scholar and a travailer. By jeremy Corderoy Student in Oxford.  He that cometh to God, must believe that God is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. Heb. 11.16. 
AT LONDON, Printed by Thomas Purfoot, for Laurence Lyle, and are to be sold at the Tigers head in Paul's Churchyard. 1608.   

To the Right Honourable, Thomas, Lord Ellesmere, Lord Chancellor of England, and one of his majesties most honourable privy Council; Grace, and Peace.  
WHen as (right Honourable) I had finished this my short Dialogue against Atheism: Considering the malice of certain godless men, who with scorn traduce such books which confute their error; As also the blind zeal of others, which think books of this kind not fit for these days, I thought it very necessary to shroud myself under the protection of some Honourable person, Who for his authority might bridle the malice of the one, and for his daily experience in the estate of this Realm, might satisfy the other. In these respects, none seemed to me so fit as your Honour, who for your authority can and do daily punish the outrageous dealing of Atheists. And by reason of your daily experience in your Courts of star-chamber and Chancery, You cannot but see how necessary such books are for these times. For, albeit it be a great means to deter Atheists from heinous offences, to punish severely malefactors (in which respect your Honour do daily God and your Prince great service, and your Country great good:) Yet it cannot be unknown unto you, that by manifest and evident proof to make known unto all men; that there is a God who will judge all men according to their works, is the chiefest means to restrain men from offending. For it cannot be, that he which is fully persuaded that there is a God who will punish those that do evil, and reward those that do well, should be careless how they live: Much less without fear, daily commit heinous sins, and continue therein all their days. As in this present age so great a number do, as never the like in former ages, which is an evident proof, that there are now more than ever there were, (though they profess not in words) who think in their hearts there is no God. Most necessary therefore it is, to plant this Doctrine in the hearts of men, that there is a God who as he made all things, so continually he governeth all things, unto whom all men must give account of their doings. Presuming therefore on your Honour's wont favour to all Scholars, and the great need of books of this kind for these times, I am bold to crave your Honour to patron this my small treatise, wherein (I hope) you shall do that which is grateful to God, and encourage me and others with comfort to set forth the glory of god; and bind me always to pray for your Honour's good suecesse, in all things you take in hand.  
At your honours service, jeremy Corderoy.   

To the Reader.  
I DOUBT not (gentle Reader) but that there are many more scrupulous, then rightly zealous; who think it not convenient, that any question should be made, whether there be any God or no, (because as they say) there are very few, who doubt of it, and the very calling of it in question, breedeth scruples in the minds of those, who made no question of it before. True it is, that if there were no more Atheists in these days, then do in words deny God; Fit it were, we should be silent in this point. For few or none there are, who now in words deny God, and the very persons of such men, who in plain terms deny that there is any God, have been in all ages, even amongst the heathen so odious, that their hateful opinion hath done but little harm either to the Church, or Commonwealth. But the Scripture forewarneth us of a more dangerous kind of Atheist, who will not in words deny God, but by their deeds, 
Tit. 1.16.  as the Apostle saith. They profess that they know God, but by their deeds they deny him. And in another place speaking of them, saith, 
2. Tim. 3.5  that they have show of godliness, but they deny the power of it. They have a show of godliness, because in words they make profession of Religion, but they deny the power of it. For they will not in their deeds yield reverence & obedience unto it. These are they, of whom the Apostle saith, that they will privily bring in damnable heresies, 
2. Pet. 2.12.18.  and that many shall follow their damnable ways, that in speaking swelling words of vanity, they shall beguile with wantonness, through the lust of the flesh, than that were clean escaped from them, which were wrapped in error. That is, deceive even those which were not entangled in those errors of doctrine, which in the time immediately going before, the Apos. forshewed would take hold on most men, termed the latter days. 
1. Tim. 4.1  These Atheists who now in these days abound, termed the last days, 
2. Tim. 3.1 2. Pet. 3.3.  as the last and dregs of Satan's vomit, so the worst of all evils that ever came unto the Church of God, do with greater pride contemn godliness (though after a covert manner) then ever any of Satan's crew since the world began. 
2. Tim. 3.4  Who because they love their pleasures more than God, as the Apostle saith of them. Therefore of set purpose they seek by all means possible to abandon all thought of God and his knowledge: & albeit they cannot choose but see that there is a God which governeth all by the creation of all things, in heaven and earth, their continual preservation, the motions of the heavens, the orderly course of all things in the earth, yet they seeing it, endeavour not to see it, and perceiving it, will not take notice of it, lest they acknowledging a God, should by consequence be constrained to forego their entirely beloved pleasures. This love of pleasures, and settled resolution to enjoy all the pleasures and commodities of this present life without controlment, causeth the knowledge of God to be so hateful unto them, as the light of the Sun was unto the eyes of that hellhound Cerberus delighting & used to darkness; so that when Hercules endeavoured to draw him to the light, he shut his eyes, and by all his might shunned the light: so these helhounds used to the works of darkness, and delighting therein, do shun all the means that might bring them to the true light of their souls: and if any Hercules do endeavour to draw them to the light, they will by all might and main draw back, and shut their eyes against the truth, non persuadebis, etiamsi persuaseris, ye shall not make them yield to the truth, though you convince them. Nay, they will hate even the persons of them who strive to bring them to the truth. So true is that of the Prophet David, 
Psalm. 35.  they will not understand, that they might do good, 
Tom. 10. de verb. Apost. serm. 13.  and that of S. Augustine, Impia mens odit etiam intellectum ipsum, & homonimium mente perversus timet intelligere, ne cogatur, quod intellexerit, facere. A wicked mind, hateth even understanding; and a man of a perverse mind, feareth to know to do well, lest his knowledge constrain him to do that which he knoweth aught to be done. This is the cause why that saying of the Prophet was never more generally true, then in these days He that refraineth from evil, 
Esa. 59.15  maketh himself a prey. For whosoever will not run with them into that excess of riot as they do, they take for an enemy, and by all means spoil him, if not of his goods fearing the law, yet of his good name, and make him as odious as may be: because the godly care of such men in refraining from sin, is (as they take it) a kind of reproof of their lewd life & ill conversation. Whosoever duly without partiality considereth how daily this ill brood of men do multiply & increase, cannot but with grief be moved, if he hath any spark of christianity in him. 
Hooker. lib. 5. sect. 2.  divers causes hereof there are, as a learned and judicious man hath showed, namely: First, our overmuch patience toward them wherein (to use his words) the zeal of Babel towards the glory of God, hath exceeded the zeal of Zion. Secondly, our dissensions do strengthen them in their error. And thirdly, the impreparation of many, and unability to give a reason of the grounds of our religion, because they imagine no man will call them in question. Unto which causes, I would I might not justly add another, namely the corrupt life of some, who have consecrated themselves to the service of God, yet dare not open their mouths against corruption in manners, but only busy themselves in matters of doctrine, lest they should here Medice cura teipsum: or that of the Poet.  

Juvenal. satire. 2.  Loripidem rectus derideat, Ethiopem albus.  
Quis tulerit Graccos de seditione querentes?  
Quis coelum terris non miseat, & mare coelo,  
Si fur displiciat verri, Homicida Miloni?  
Clodius accuset moechos, Catilina Cethegum.  
Let him that is strait footed, deride him that haulteth, and he that is fair, a black-more. Who can endure to hear the seditious Gracchians to complain of sedition? who can with patience endure to hear Verres a famous thief, reprove a petty thief? or Milo a famous murderer, to reprehend man's slaughter? or that infamous Clodius, should accuse those who are incontinent? or that one traitor, should accuse an other of treason? Wherefore most dearly beloved brethren, to you I speak especially, who have separated yourselves from other men, to set forth the glory of God: though this matter also concerneth every Christian in particular; Yet to you I speak, who are not stained with the contagious infection of this wicked brood, whose garments are white: so that you may freely beseeming your persons, reprove the deformity of others. Whose sincere and godly conversation, do add authority, weight, and credit unto your reprehensions. If hitherto you have endeavoured to be as simple as Doves in judging, and interpreting the best of all men, supposing every one to be as religious as they speak: yet now sith we are forewarned, that in these days many shall make a show of godliness, yet are most ungodly; be as careful to be as wise as Serpents. Consider your calling, consider that the Lord hath made you watchmen to foresee evils, and to give warning of them. Consider what the Lord saith unto you; 
Ezec. 3.18.  If I (saith the Lord) shall say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die, and thou give him not warning, nor speakest to admonish him, that he may live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thy hands. 
jer. 48.10.  Consider what the Prophet saith, Cursed is he that doth the work of the Lord negligently. The Lord hath forewarned you of these ill kind of men. Give warning unto others, that you may save them, and your own souls. Fellow the example of our predecessors, who in the time wherein error of doctrine did abound, then especially did strive for the truth. Now likewise, let us in the time wherein we are forewarned, that corruption in manners should abound, contend against ungodliness in manners. For what availeth us to know that God above all things is to be honoured, if we honour him not? Our knowledge of the will of God without our obedience unto it, is to our greater condemnation.  
Learned Reader, expect not any curious composition in this treatise, or nice terms: For you know that the nature of a Dialogue requireth familiar speech: And secondly (but especially) I endeavoured to speak to the understanding of the meanest capacity, being desirous (as much as in me lieth) to profit all men.  
Yours, IER. CORDEROY.   

A DIALOGUE Between a travailer, and a Student in Oxford.  travailer. 
OH my most kind & ancient friend, although I have been now long out of England travailing in many Countries, and now posting home to see my Parents (as duty bindeth me) yet lighting in the company of Oxford men, as I came from London, I inquired of my old acquaintance in Oxford, by whom I understood, that you remained still a Student here, as I left you. Ancient affection and kindness constrained me to stay my haste, and abide one day with you to renew our old acquaintance.  Student. 
Sir, for this your exceeding great kindness, I hold myself much bound unto you, and am most heartily glad to see your safe return after so many years absence, and I pray you persuade yourself, that you are a most welcome guest to me.  Trau. 
I thank you most kindly, but good Lord, how are you altered since my departure? pale, lean, thin, and I fear as poor in purse as in body: for I understand by those Oxford men, with whom I came from London, that you are not as yet preferred to any living.  Stud. 
True, I am not: but even in the same estate, as you lest me, what that was, you know, very mean.  Trau. 
I was sorry when I heard it, but more sorry to see it, and to tell you the truth, the especial motive which caused me to come now unto you, was to give you better advise, and to put you in a better course, to provide for yourself. For the course which hitherto you have taken, your own experience can tell you, that it will little avail you. You have now studied divinity many years in Oxford, you have preached divers times, as myself can testify; your life and conversation I dare boldly affirm, is without exception; you are conformable to all true discipline; it hath cost you and your friends many pounds, since you came first: but to what purpose have you taken all this pains? and bestowed all this cost? what reward have you? I pray tell me, did ever any Patron offer you any living?  Stud. 
Yes truly, I have been offered a living without suit, and also upon suit, but I must needs say, upon reasonable conditions (as the Patron thought) but such, as I may not enter into with a good conscience.  Trau. 
Conscience? yea, this conscience is it, which marreth, all, this is it which hindereth you from all preferment. And if you will still stand upon conscience, here may you study until moss grow to your heels before any living worth the taking be freely without condition offered you, silly Scholar! borne to pine thy body in study, and waste thy goods in vain! think not that men of this age are so simple, as to give that freely, which they may lawfully sell dearly.  Stud. 
Though I never shall have any preferment bestowed on me freely, yet will I not despair of God's goodness in providing for me. Howsoever, I am resolved (by the grace of God) never to use any indirect means to be preferred. And whereas you say that Patrons now are not so simple, as to give that freely, which they may lawfully sell dearly: I marvel how they may lawfully do that, which cannot be done without shipwreck of a good conscience.  Trau. 
Good conscience? tush man, think you that they are afraid of any bugbeares? what should they be afraid of?  Stud. 
Of what? even of the heavy wrath of God upon themselves, 
Levit. 27.28.  and their posterity. Doth it seem a small thing to profane that which is consecrated to the setting forth of God's honour? if any Christian think this, he is far worse than an Infidel, who otherwise stand not so much upon honesty. The Romans had this law, Sacrum qui clepserit, 
Cicer. lib. 2. delegib.  raepseritue, parricida esto. He which clippeth, or taketh away that with is consecrated to holy uses, let him be punished as a Parricide. 
Decad. 1. lib. 5.  Livy recordeth, that the Romans sent a present unto Apollo at Delphos; by the way, the Legates lighted upon Pirates, who take the Romans with their present intended to be given unto Apollo. They carry them home to Lyparas, where the custom was to divide that which by piracy they had taken: That year, one Timasitheus was chief Governor, who demanded of the Legates whence they were, and whither they intended to sail? and understanding that they were messengers sent with a present consecrated unto Apollo, moved with reverence; he dealeth with his Citizens to forego their booty, because they were holy things consecrated unto Apollo. The Citizens, though they lived by robbery, yet made conscience of things which were consecrated to holy uses were contented to forego their commodity: yea, moreover they send with the Legates, men of war to protect them until they came to Delphos. These heathen men, though they erred in the knowledge and true worship of the true God: yet their deeds show their sincere affection toward God as far as they knew, of whom in charity we ought thus to think, that had they known the true God, & his right worship, they would have been much more zealous for his glory. Whose sincere, though erroneous, affection, shall in the day of judgement condemn the juggling and fraudulent dealing, with sacred things, of many which know the truth, and profess the name of Christ. 
Ios. 6.19. Acts. 5.3.4.5.  If Ananias and Saphira were so fearfully punished, for retaining but a part of that which themselves, of their own private good, had given to holy uses; how much less can they hope to escape the punishment of God, who invade the Goods of the Church, consecrated to holy uses, which were never their own?  Trau. 
Alas poor Scholar, I pity thy credulous simplicity: But come, where may we sit and talk freely, I would not be heard, and you shall promise me faithfully, that what I speak unto you, you shall not disclose unto any man, nor call me in question for that which in secret for good will I shall advise you.  Stud. 
Doubt you not of that, I will be secret. Come let us go into my study, there no man can hear us. I will lock my study door, no man shall interrupt our talk.  Trau. 
Now we are in secret, I am bold to utter my mind for your good, if you will not be obstinate in your fancy against all reason & continual experience. In reason no man ought to take in hand any thing, but to some good end and purpose, whereby in the end he may reap some pleasure or commodity: now I would gladly know of you, to what end you spend your years in vain speculations, spend your body in continual reading and meditation, spend continually your money, with small hope ever to recover your charges again, and in the mean space, defraud yourself of those pleasures which others enjoy, debar yourself of such preferments, which usually men of meaner desert obtain. That this course you take is not good, I appeal to your own experience, who have lived here long with a thin diet, barely appareled, and I doubt also, somewhat in debt to. Yet now as far from hope of mending your estate (except you altar this course) as you were the first day you came.  Stud. 
Indeed if I made pleasure or profit the principal end of all my labours and studies, I must confess, as now the world goeth, I take a wrong course: but being a Scholar, my principal end is to obtain learning, and herein I study to approve myself to God, in labouring diligently in my vocation, in setting forth his glory, in doing good to all men according to mine ability, and endeavouring to keep a good conscience in respect of myself. These things a scholar ought to aim at, & not at riches, pleasures, and preferment.  Trau. 
God's glory? a good conscience? tush, are you in earnest, and speak seriously?  Stud. 
Yes truly,  Trau. 
Good Lord! this it is, to be mewed up in a study all the days of a man's life, sign it is you have little experience in the world. Had you been abroad as I have been, experience would have taught you, that God, Conscience, and Religion, have been things invented by the Politicians of this world, to keep men within the compass of human laws, for fear of future punishment after this life, whom otherwise, no fear or punishment in this life only, could restrain from breaking all laws. The little regard they have in observing the Religion which in words they profess, doth sufficiently show, what account they make of it, as long as religion hinder not their profit or pleasures, they are contented to make show of reverence unto it; but let religion forbid them, such pleasures or commodities as they affect, they will make no bones to violate all religion. The base estimation they have of those that live religiously, doth bewray their inward thoughts; for albeit in your presence they highly commend godliness and zeal, yet secretly behind your backs, they account them fools, who practise it: and with many privy nips they deride them.  Stud. 
Albeit I have not been much abroad, so that out of experience I can say little, how men practise that in their deeds which in words they profess, yet I make no doubt but that at this time, and this age, there are more wicked men who deny God by their deeds, whom in words they profess, than ever were since the world began. For albeit, there have been always ungodly men, yet at one time they abound more than in other. The Scripture foreshoweth us, that in these last days corruption of manners should abound, 
2. Tim. 3.1. 2. Pet. 3.3. & 2. Pet. 2.  as error in doctrine was prophesied should come immediately after the time of the Apostles, termed the latter days by the Apostle, 
1. Tim. 4.1.  the truth of which prophesies the woeful experience of our forefathers can testify: of the one, I mean the greatness of error in doctrine; of the other, corruption of life and conversation: we who now live, cannot but acknowledge it to our grief, yourself perceive it, & find it true. Even by this, that all things come to pass according as the word of God foreshoweth should come to pass. I gather an unfallible argument, that the word of God & Religion is not any invention of man, but that all things are disposed by the hand of God: otherwise who can foretell many years before, what afterwards shall come to pass. Only God the disposer of all things can tell us what shall come to pass. Who therefore foreshoweth us what evils are to come, and when, that we might know, that there is nothing which cometh to pass, but by his disposition: as also, that being forewarned, we might be the better armed and encouraged to withstand them, since we know that they come not by chance, but by the ordinance of God for our good, if we patiently endure them, and manfully withstand them. As for the proud disdainfulness of godless men, who esteem those fools, that sincerely endeavour to live a godly life: I do not much marvel at it, for in reason they cannot have any better opinion of them, presupposing that, which they falsely presume, that the whole felicity of man is confined within the compass of this present life: that the soul dieth with the body; that after this life, there shall be no judgement, no heaven, no hell, no happiness, no reward for virtue and godliness: no torment for lewdness of life and ungodliness: that man is born by chance, and also dieth by chance. They who thus think, cannot but esteem those fools (as Lactantius very well observeth) who whilst they expect future joys after this life, 
Lib. 7. cap. 5. de divino, praemio.  do let pass present pleasures and delights: and whilst they expect happiness not seen, do forego present worldly joys which are seen: whilst they endeavour to avoid evils to come, they run into present evils. This seemeth madness and foolishness to worldly wise men. But notwithstanding this wrong conceit which Worldlings have of godly men, no reason it is, that godly men should indeed become fools, either to please fools, or to seem to be wise. If the question be well discussed, who are the wisest, whether they who enjoy all the pleasures of this world without respect of divine and human laws? or they who abstain from voluptuous living, and forego pleasures, and commodities, in respect of divine & human laws? it will easily appear who are the wisest. Yea God himself hath pronounced of the wisdom of worldly men: that it is but vain. But of the other wisdom, 
Ps. 94.11. 1. Cor. 3.20. Pro. 16.16 Pro. 2.12. job, 28.13  God saith, that It is better than gold and silver: that It keepeth those that have it, from evil: & that it delighteth the soul. And job speaking of the excellency of it, saith, that Man cannot know the price of it. This being so, little cause have any to be discouraged from well doing, because fools take them to be fools. Now, whereas you say that Religion is but the invention of certain politic men, to restrain men from offending, and to keep the simpler sort in obedience for fear of future punishments after this life, herein you much mistake the matter: for were it only a subtle device of men, and not a truth, it would soon be descried for a forgery, and come to nought. For common experience proveth (which also a great Politician, Gamaliel I mean, doth not only acknowledge, but also set it down, for a most sure grounded truth, and proveth it by former examples) that the counsail● & devise which cometh not of God, 
Act. 5.38.  will come to nought. Now that there is a God which rewardeth the just, and punisheth the wicked; all men, all Nations have and do acknowledge. Begin at the first borne in the world, Cain and Abel, there was then no common wealth to govern, so that they had no cause to dissemble a Religion. 
Gen. 4.3  Yet they acknowledge a God, and they sacrificed unto God. Come from these two first borne men, and go through all Nations that ever were, and are to this day, and you shall find that saying of a heathen man Cicero (who knew not God a right) to be most true. That there is no Nation so barbarous, but doth acknowledge a God. For God hath revealed himself unto men many ways, sometimes by visions, sometimes by dreams, sometimes by his wonders, sometimes by his revelations, and written word: But most generally to all men without exception, 
Rom. 2.15  By his written law in the hearts and consciences of all men. By virtue of which written law in their hearts, all men naturally know good from bad: That the good is to be embraced, that evil is to be avoided. That the good and righteous man is worthy of reward. That wicked and evil men are worthy punishment. That truth is to be embraced. That error is to be eschewed, insomuch that no man can pretend any excuse, when he doth evil, since all men have a natural light, whereby they may discern good from bad. As we may see amongst all heathen people, who albeit they err in the manner of worshipping God, yet in that, every Nation throughout the world, have their several Ceremonies, Rites, Sacrifices, and peculiar manner of worshipping their Gods: they show in general, that God is to be worshipped: they err not, In pietatis affectu, sed in religionis delectu as one saith, in the they make laws, appoint punishments for evil doers, and rewards for those that do well. They show that piety, justice, & honesty is to be embraced. Nay they show that not only man punisheth wickedness, but that there is a God, that regardeth the doings of men, as we may see in those Mariners which carried jonas, 
●●nas 1.5.  who of all men most commonly lest fear God or men; yet when God stirred up a tempest, they being in jeopardy of their lives, each of them called unto his God, though they knew not the true God, yet that they were in the hands of such a God who had power to save them, or east them away, they all knew; else would they not have prayed unto him; Nay further they acknowledged, that that dangerous tempest was raised up for the punishment of some of their sins, and in that they erred not. 
Vers. 7.  These men had not the law of Moses to instruct them, but only the light of nature the effect of the law of Moses written in their hearts. 
Rom. 2.15  Likewise in the Acts of the Apostles, when Paul with his company suffered shipwreck, being cast into Melita, where the inhabitants were barbarous people, 
Act. 28.2.  who never had been instructed either by the law of Moses, or by the Gospel, yet they showed the law of Moses in effect written in their hearts, they entertained miserable Paul and his company with great humanity & courtesy. Nay further, they showed that calamity, misery, and punishments, come not unto men, by chance, but by the ordinance of God. For when as they saw a viper take hold on Paul's hand, they make this conclusion, that Paul was a wicked man: Who although he had escaped drowning, yet God would not have him escape vengeance. Furthermore, unto this natural knowledge of good and evil, God hath joined and engraven in the minds of all men, a conscience. Which as a Schoolmaster reproveth and correcteth us, if we do any thing contrary to reason, being the light of our minds, or omit any thing pertaining to our duty, and also on the other side doth reward us as it were with the oil of comfort and gladness, insomuch, that there is none so bad, but if at any time he hath done well, he feeleth in himself a joy and a comfort, for that he hath done well, and as long as he continueth in well doing, his hopes are always comfortable. But when he doth evil, 
Vide Juvenal. satir. 13. & Ovid. lib. 1● Eleg. ad Brutum.  in the doing he is fearful; and when we have done and finished our enterprises, then especially doth our consciences torment and vex us: so that albeit as one saith, 
Seneca.  Scelus licet quandoque tutum sit, nunquam tamen est securum: A heinous deed may be done without danger, but never without fear. Terror of conscience is incident unto all men great and small, no man can be free from it, no not the mightiest monarch that ever were. Alexander the great, who feared no human punishment, when he had killed Clitus, was so formented with the grief of conscience, the for the space of three days he refrained from all company and comfort, & would have pined himself to death, 
Sabellicus lib. 6. Ennead. 4.  if his captives had not forced in upon him into his Tent, and with great importunity persuaded him to take comfort. Nay (which is more strange) Nero Emperor of Rome, who would acknowledge no God, nor cared for any human law, after he had privily dispatched his Mother Agrippina, 
Tacitus. Suetonius. Z●philin.  was always tormented with fearful dreams in the night, so that oftentimes he would start out of his bed, and by day time he seemed to hear terrible blasts of trumpets sounding in his ears: and albeit he removed from place to place, hoping to be out of the hearing of that fearful noise, yet whither so ever he went, it continually pursued him, so that from the time he caused Anicetus to dispatch his mother, he lived in continual fear day and night, always mistrusting those that lived about him, suspecting treason against his person when no man thought him harm. This conscience God hath placed in the minds of men as a continual watch over our secret thoughts and doings, 
Caluin. Instit. li. 3. ca 19 sect. 15  with draweth us before the judgement seat of God when we do amiss, and giveth testimony against us that we have offended and deserved punishment. This conscience planted in us by the finger of God, is a bridle unto us, to restrain us from offending even in secret and in the dark, when no man can accuse us; it putteth us in mind that good is to be done, and evil is to be avoided; that to do well deserveth reward, and to do evil deserveth blame and punishment: though no man seeth us, it gladdeth our hearts and filleth them full of good hopes, but maketh the hearts of those that do ill, timorous, mistrustful, suspicious, & always expecting some ill or other, since by their offences they have deserved it. This knowledge of good and evil, and this conscience is that which restraineth men from offences, and not the devices of Politicians. If all the Politicians in the world should bend their wits to keep men from offending, it would be to small purpose. Were it not that God hath deeply graven in the hearts of all people in the world, that evil is to be avoided, and that good is to be embraced. And this is so general in all men, that never there was any man so absolutely bad, who albeit he did that which was ill, yet would set down this as a ground, that evil was to be embraced, and good was to be eschewed: nor ever any so bad, but if he knew he had done ill, condemned himself therein as worthy of blame and punishment. Religion therefore is not the invention of Politicians (as you falsely imagine) but the work of God in the hearts of all men. In vain should all the Politicians in the world conspire together to deceive men: for deceit and falsehood by the confession of all men, will soon bewray itself.  Trau. 
Well, you abstain from evil for fear of punishment, & you apply yourselves to do well for hope of rewards: yet you who thus precisely live to please God, as you say, are above all other men contemned, wronged, & made the of-skowring of the world; and these things you must patiently endure too, or else you lose your reward. But they whom you account most wicked, live in continual prosperity, 
Psal. 73.  and have more than their heart can wish, as your own Prophet doth confess. If indeed there were a God (as you vainly suppose to your great hurt) who so highly esteemed virtue, and so greatly hated vice; then without doubt he would presently reward those who observe his law and endeavour to please him: and contrariwise, presently punish those who contemn him, than would there be more godliness in the world, and less wickedness.  Stud. 
I perceive you think you have spoken wisely, seeing you speak this so confidently. I marvel God took not your advise in these matters. But lest you should over please yourself in your error, I will make manifest unto you your foolish surmised wisdom. Whereas you require (that God should presently reward the godly when they have done well; and presently punish the ungodly assoon as they have done evil; supposing, that hereby would follow greater piety and less ungodliness; this course were to take away all godliness and piety. For albeit it be not altogether unlawful to have respect of future reward for well doing, and also abstain from doing evil for fear of punishment, God promising the one, and threatening the other, yet to make this the sole, or principal end of doing well and avoiding evil, is not to obey God for love of him, whom above ourselves and all other things we ought to love: but to obey God for our own commodity, and to prefer ourselves before God. Now if God should always presently reward godliness, and presently punish wickedness, considering the infirmity of man as now it is in his corrupt nature, such is his weakness, that he would obey God, not for the love of God (as Satan falsely accused job 
job. 1.9 10 ) but for his blessing sake: such mercenary love (in truth) is no sincere love, nor accepted of God for a virtue, but rejected for a vice. Secondly, you are to consider, that the justice of God is a perfect justice, no way defective: which it should be, if he should take that course in rewarding godliness, and punishing vice, with you would prescribe him. For as the godliness and piety of the good, die not with them when they depart this life, but oftentimes their virtues, piety, and good works, do more good after their departure out of this life, then in their life time, as the goodly and learned writings of godly men, who lived in ancient times, do now instruct many in the way of truth, and convert many unto godliness of life; so that albeit they are long since departed out of this world, yet they continue still in doing good, even to the world's end: So on the contrary, wicked men who in their life time lived lewdly, and corrupted others by their ill conversation, leave behind them after their death the seeds of their wickedness, whose infectious contagion successively remain in others, perhaps to the world's end, so that impossible it is to reward the one or the other according to their desert in their life time, since the effect of their doings are not finished until the world's end. And this was the reason that Dives being in hell, 
Luke 16.  desired leave to go & admonish his brethren whom in his life time by his ill example he had corrupted: not for any love to them, but lest they continuing in their lewd life corrupted by him, his torments should be increased. Thirdly, it cannot stand with the goodness of God, presently to punish sinners so soon as they offend; for in God there is perfect patience, who giveth time and leisure to repentance. 
Rom. 2.4.  Many in their youth have been vitiouslie given, who in their latter days, become notable members of the Church and Common wealth, whom if God should have cut off in their youth, we now should have wanted many a notable instrument of his glory. Paul at the first was a persecutor of those that professed Christ's name, but afterwards, who may he comp●●ed with him? S Augustine in his youth, was none of the best: yet what notable monuments hath he left behind him to the great good of all the Church. Infinite are the examples that may by brought to this purpose. Fourthly, in requiring that God should presently reward the godly, and punish the wicked in this life, you require that which is impossible. For virtue, piety, & godliness, cannot be prized with any earthly blessing, they are of greater value than all the gold, and silver, and precious stones in the world. The true love of God & our neighbour, justice, patience, and such like, are spiritual graces, and cannot but with spiritual blessings be rewarded. So on the contrary, the breach of God's law, and ungodliness, deserve greater punishment, than man in this life is able to endure; so that the just reward promised to godliness, and the due punishment threatened unto ungodliness, cannot be performed in this life, sith the glory of the one exceedeth the capacity of man living in this mortal life: and the extremity of the other exceedeth the ability of any man living in this mortal body of ours. God therefore who doth all things in his just order and due time, hath appointed their seasons, when they both shall be rewarded. Wherefore you are not to determine of these matters, but leave them to the judgement of God.  Trau. 
What tell you me of the judgement of God? I tell you in plain terms, (upon your former promise of secrecy) I am fully persuaded, that there is no God.  Stud. 
I pray you abstain from these abominable speeches.  Trau. 
Tush, first prove them abominable speeches, then term them so. I am a reasonable creature, I will believe nothing contrary to force, experience, and reason.  Stud. 
Sense, experience, reason, and especially Scripture do prove it.  Trau. 
Scripture? I believe not one word in it. Prove it by reason, then must I needs acknowledge it, but I know this fancy is altogether against reason. Except therefore you prove this by reason, in vain you shall heap testimonies out of the Scripture: for if I d●d believe there were a God, I would believe the Scripture; & if I did believe the Scripture, I must needs believe there is a God.  Stud. 
This your hateful opinion would seem very strange unto me, but that the Scripture fore showeth, 
2. Tim. 3. ●  that in these last days there should be many of this detestable imagination as now your experience abroad in the world doth manifest unto you, that there are many such: but to the point. Will you acknowledge without cavilling, what Sense, Experience, and Reason will prove?  Trau. 
Yes, I will always willingly yield to these.  Stud. 
Albeit in excepting against the Scripture, you debar me of the greatest & chiefest means whereby the Majesty of God is lively set forth, yet to prove there is a God, I require no more than those principles with you yield to; Sense, Experience, & Reason. Now before I come to prove this matter, suffer me to ask one or two questions of you. If you should stand on a Mountain by the sea side, & behold a Ship sailing in the sea, in a great tempest amongst many dangerous rocks, if you saw her sail directly to the harbour, skilfully avoiding every rock lying in her way, on which the violence of the wind, and rage of the waves would drive her, & break her in pieces were it not, but that by winding this way, and that way, she avoided from them: Though you saw no man in the ship, would you not think that there were some man who guided the stern, whereby she passed all those dangers, & came safely into the harbour?  Trau. 
Yes, I must needs think so, otherwise the ship would be carried whither so ever the wind & waves would drive her, and be overturned by the waves, or beaten in pieces on the rocks.  Stud. 
One question more, and then I will come to the matter in question: think you, that you have a soul in your body?  Trau. 
What an absurd question is this. How otherwise could I talk with you? I have all my senses; this question is questionless.  Stud. 
But yet for all this, 
Act. ●. 38  you never saw your soul, nor can well describe unto me what a thing it is.  Trau. 
What if I never saw it, nor can descibe it: shall I therefore, doubt whether I have a soul or no? her operations in me, do show and prove that I have a soul. Many things be of that nature, that they cannot be seen, 
G●●. 4.3  yet are no more to be doubted of, but that they are, than whether the things which we see with our eyes, are or no: as the wind we see not, yet our sense doth feel it, my voice you see not, yet you hear it; we see not sweet or ill savours, yet our sense showeth us, that there are such.  Stud. 
Were it not but that the Scripture teacheth me, that God punisheth those who regard not to know him, with a strange grossness of understanding in spiritual matters, and giveth them over to a reprobate sense, 
2. Thes. 2 10.11.12.  that they should not perceive, that which they see: I should much marvel at you & the like men. Is it not strange that you can gather by consequent of reason, that of necessity there must he a guide in the ship which saileth in the sea, because he saileth to the harbour, avoiding all danger's which might annoy her, which dangers she could not possibly avoid, except she were guided by some having reason and skill how to direct and guide it. And also acknowledge that you have a soul in your body, which, what it is, you cannot sufficiently describe, only because it manifesteth itself unto you by her operations in you: so that no way you can doubt, but that you have a soul, whose substance you never saw: & yet seeing the admirable order and course of all things in the world continually guided and preserved in an order far passing the capacity of man; doubt whether there be a God which made, guideth, and preserveth all things. Herein you are far worse than heathen men, who albeit they were never instructed by the word of God, yet by the continual and orderly course of the heavens, and by the seasonable fruits of the earth, all of them coming in their due times & seasons, did gather that there was a God which moved the heavens in such order, and caused all things here on earth, to observe their certain course. Therefore now I must deal with you, as with a heathen man (since you except against Scripture) and by things seen prove the invisible power, wisdom, and goodness of God: who, that all men might be without excuse, made the world: that all men seeing the infinite hugeness, the great diversity, and the orderly course of all things in it, and enjoy-the commodities of all things therein, might acknowledge h●s infinite power, admire his wisdom, and with thankfulness laud him for his exceeding blessings. If you will yield to sense and reason, you must of necessity acknowledge, that the creation of the heavens, earth, and variety of all things contained therein cannot be effected but by a divine power far exceeding the power of all the monarch since the world began. If you consider the admirable order of all things created in heaven & earth, wherein every thing is placed in his dignity, you cannot but with wonder admire the admirable wisdom of the disposer.  
And (to enter into the particular consideration of it) consider first the blessed Angels, who as in dignity they come nearest God their maker: so according to their dignity, they are placed in a most blessed place. Man, in dignity next unto them, being a creature consisting of two different natures, his soul of a heavenvly substance, his body made of the earth: though by reason of the union of the soul with the body, he liveth here on earth, yet (as Hermes termeth him) is he a divine creature, and according to his spiritual substance, hath his conversation in heaven, meditating on the glorious majesty of God his chiefest felicity, desiring fully to enjoy his presence, who hath so far dignified him, that for his only sake, he created all the world, and man for his own glory: to this end hath he given man reason to consider of all his works, senses to behold them, & a tongue to magnify his goodness for these his excellent blessings: next unto man consider the heavens themselves, the greatness and compass thereof, the number of the Stars, and their variety, their continual and orderly motions without ceasing or weariness, whose virtues and influences no tongue can express, so necessary for all things living here on earth; that if they should but stay their motions, and but for a small time cease to send down their influences & virtues, all things here on earth would fade and come to nought. Infinite is the number of the stars and planets in Heaven, their virtues so necessary, that if you take any of them away, his defect would hinder the operations of the other. For proof of this, I will instance but in two of them. Whose virtues are known so necessary, that without them, all the rest would serve to no purpose, there is none so simple who knoweth not, nor any so impudent as durst deny, that if the Sun were taken out of the number of the Planets all the rest both of stars, and planets would lose their light, and consequently their operations, all trees and herbs which grow on earth, cease bearing fruit, and quickly come to nought. Take away the moon, besides that, the comfortable guidance which Travilers by night have by the benefit of her light, would be wanting, all trees and herbs also on the earth, would soon whither away through the heat of the sun, for want of her mo●stenning. Nay, suffer them to have their being in heaven, only stay their motions, all things on earth would come to nothing. For the Sun wheresoever he stayed, would skorch all things directly under him, and dry them to powder, the Moon wheresoever she stayed, would putrefy all things under her, & bring them to rottenness. The like may be said in particular of every star in heaven: for if there were not a necessary use of every one of them, then would it follow, that God had made some thing in vain: the which you know is against a ground and principle in philosophy, and therefore needs not any farther proof. Next unto these, consider the decent order of the elements, which as they are in dignity one more excellent than another, so according to their dignity are they placed one above another, this I know you are not ignorant of, being a matter agreed upon by all Philosophers. Lastly, consider all things here on earth, how they in their dumb language do set forth the glory of God: & here first consider the sea most wonderful to behold, and most profitable for all mankind, wonderful to see how his mighty waves seem to threaten the overflowing of all the earth: yet by the only appointment of God, is limited his course & bounds, the which he cannot pass: but as rebuked by the shores his appointed limits, returneth back to his channels again. Then the great commodity thereof appeareth in the varietiy and unspeakable number of fishes in it, which as a common treasury for all sorts of people, rich and poor, yieldeth fishes in variety unspeakable, in number infinite, free without money, in so plentiful manner, that notwithstanding all nations continually night and day, take out of it unknown store of fish, yet there remain such plenty, that there is no sign that any have been taken out of it. Lastly, consider the manifold variety of fowls, beasts, plants, and herbs, wherewith God hath enriched the earth all for the use of man: observe the provident order with God hath appointed in causing springs of water (without which man cannot live) to issue out of high mountains in the land, and channels to convey them into the Sea, otherwise would they drown the whole land: and herein observe a marvelous wonder, that notwithstanding all the rivers in the world do empt themselves into the Sea, and have done so ever since the world began: yet at this time, is the Sea no fuller than at the beginning: to speak of all particulars which God hath created here on earth, not only for the use of man, but also for his delight, were to undertake that which no tongue can express or pen describe; therefore I leave them to your particular consideration. Now if you should behold a goodly house, curiously builded, adorned, and garnished with all things which may delight the beholder, with fit and convenient rooms for all necessary uses, with conduits of water into every room where it might need, all things as well composed as wit and art can devise, could you imagine that such a house were composed by chance? reason would constrain you to confess, that the composer and builder thereof, was endued with great skill, art, and wisdom: how much more should you (when you behold the great fabric of the world) confess the great power and wisdom of God, were you not given over into a reprobate senco? Now to create all these things, and place them in so wonderful order, doth far pass all human power & wisdom; but continually to preserve and continue all these particulars perpetually in their motions, virtues, and order, is a matter of greater wonder, all the monarchs of the world cannot create one hair. Painter's may paint the world with all things in it, but they cannot give them life and motions, they can instill no virtue into them, in this provident preservation of God in preserving all things in their proper and several natures, consider first his general providence over all things in the world; them a more especial care of man above all things in the earth; and lastly, his especial care over his elect.  Tra. 
Nay, stay first, let me except against that which you have spoke of the creation of all things for the good (as you say) of men: you have ranged through heaven and earth, and can find nothing amiss. I pray you tell me, is it for the good of man, that oftentimes thunders, lightnings, and tempests, break forth, whereby not only houses are overturned, but also men and cattle are destroyed: oftentimes the sun skorcheth the earth, and frosts so extremely nip the fruits of the earth, that by such unseasonable weather, men and beasts are hunger-baned.  Stu. 
Before I answer this point, let me see your strange fashioned Rapier.  Tra. 
O sir, I perceive you seek digressions.  Stu. 
No truly, I mean to answer your objection.  Tra. 
Then lo sir, I marvel not that you admire it so much, I think you have not seen the like; this Rapier I bought at Bilbo in Spain, his maker was the skilfullest man in his art in all Spain, by the opinion of his countrymen, mark the curious inamelling of him, feel his lightness, you may run him double against the wall, and it will never be the worse, this Rapier I am persuaded hath not his fellow in all England.  Stu. 
Indeed it is curiously wrought, and it should seem the workman thereof had great skill, but he had not the skill to keep it from rusting: for me thinketh, it beginneth to rust in one place.  Tra. 
Is that the fault of the Cutler? I hope you are not so ignorant, but that you know all iron is subject to rust, no art be it never so exquisite, can prevent this; you know it is a general position in Aristotle, that all mixed bodies are subject to corruption, because they are composed of the elements consisting of contrary qualities.  Stu. 
You say right, the rust of this Sword cometh by the fault of the iron, and not of the maker of this Rapier. I marvel that you can so easily see whence these faults, corruptions, and evils proceed, and yet accuse God as the Author of them: you free the Cutler from the fault, that this rust beginneth to eat this Rapier, you ascribe the fault to the nature of the metal whereof it is made, and herein you say truly; when it went out of his hand it had not this fault, and I marvel that you cannot aswell free God from being the Author of those evils, which before you recited, for God made all things as free from faults, as this Cutler this Rapier; these evils proceed from the things created, and not from the creator.  Tra. 
Yea, but if God be omnipotent and good, then had it been a part of his omnipotency and goodness, so to have made things, that there should have been no imperfection in them; as for example, if God had made the metal of this Rapier so perfect, that it should never have gathered rust, and that being once a Rapier, it should never break, nor any way decay, his omnipotency and goodness would have been greater than now it is: what builder of a house will not make it as durable as he can? what builder of a City doth not make it as strong as he can, that it might not be subject to any decay? How much more should God exceed in providencie and goodness to men, and make all his creatures of such perfection, that they should no way have any imperfection in them, if he be of that omnipotency as you would make him.  Student. 
Sir, you must understand that particular things are made for the general good of the universal, and parts are made for the good of the whole. As for example; Man is not made for the use of his hands, eyes, legs, or any of his members: but his hands are made for the use of his whole body, his eyes to direct the whole body, the legs to bear the whole body: no member is made for the use of itself only. Now if the imperfection of particulars in that they are subject to corruption and decay, make more for the good of the whole, then if there were no imperfetion in them: than it becometh the maker of the whole, more to respect the good of the whole, than the particular, and make particulars subject to corruption for the good of the whole, and to persist in your own examples; doth the builder of an house respect particulars in the regard of the whole? doth he not cut down many a tree for the building of this house? doth he not dig out many a stone out of the earth? doth he not break him into many pieces until he be fit for his building? do not builders of a City the like? they will hue in pieces and break goodly trees, and great stones for the good of building: and why should it seem strange to you, that God should make particulars subject to corruption for the good of the whole? Now this rapier being a particular of the whole, was not made for his own sake, but for the general use of man. And more good ariseth out of this, that he was made subject to rust, corruption, breaking, and marring, than if it should be made (as you would have it) eternal; & that for many manifest reasons. First, God who created all the world, he and all the particulars in the world for the use of man, foreseeing the fall of man, and that he would degenerate from that goodness wherein he created him; in his justice, against the disobedience of man, provided this as a punishment for his transgression, that he should earn his living with the sweat of his brows. Necessary therefore it was, that he should provide something whereon he should labour. Now, if God should have made this so perfect in all respects, that it should never take rust, or any way be subject to decay; if our apparel were of such metal, that it would never wear out; if our houses were such, that they would never decay; if our land would never bring forth weeds, but always good corn of his own accord, as you would have all these and all other particulars to be of such perfection as being once created or made, they should ever endure. Then hereby you would take away the justice of God against the sin, and the disobedience of man against God: who for his transgression hath appointed this labour on these particulars to keep these things in reparation, and that by his labour herein, he might get his living by the sweat of his brows. Secondly, if these particulars which are made for the good of the whole, were not subject to alteration, if houses, apparel, and such like, would never decay being once made, infinite inconveniences would follow thereby. For notwithstanding they do now decay, yet (the world being so full of people, which also God foresaw, and therefore provided for it accordingly) you see what daily complaints the poor sort of people do make, that they are out of work. The Carpenter, Mason, Taylor, and such like trades men, who are over charged with wife and children, how much less should these poor men according to the ordinance of God, get their living for themselves, and their household, if houses once made would never decay, if apparel, and such like necessaries for the use of man, should never wear out. So that you may see, that these things being made for the use of man, and not man for them; God hath made them more beneficial for the use of man in making them subject to change, than if he had made them durable for ever. Thirdly, God knowing the weakness and infirmity of man's corrupt nature, that as water, if it stand still, it will corrupt and gather putrefaction, but if it be alway running, it continueth pure: so the mind of man, if it be idle, it will bring forth corrupt fruit; but if it be busied on honest labour, it is free from corrupt and lewd thoughts, & free from evil works. Therefore God appointeth men to labour on mutable & changeable metal, that their labour should never be at an end, necessity constraining them thereunto, else would they be idle, and being idle, would wax wicked. Thus God who first appointed labour unto man for his transgression, turneth it into a great blessing, that whilst men continue labouring painfully in their vocation, they are free from occasions of sin, & God blesseth their labours both with temporal and spiritual blessings; temporal, as health & wealth, whereas contrariwise, they that are idle are neither healthy, nor wealthy. With spiritual blessings in this world, as with good thoughts, good conscience, and many other graces of the mind: and in the world to come, God in Christ will reward them, because they have walked according to his ordinance, painfully in their vocation. Concerning the other part of your Objection, that oftentimes thunder, wind, tempest break forth, and unseasonable weather, to the great hurt of mankind: You must consider, that the things which God created for man, have a double use, a principal, and a secondary use: the principal use of them all, is to profit man according to their manifold and several virtues given to them of God in their first creation. 
Psal. 11.  The secondary use of them is, to be instruments of God's justice against man, if he disobey his Maker, contrary to their natures and properties in their first institution. That as man, who was made to obey his maker, beginneth to disobey him that made him, and degenerate from his principal end whereunto he was created to glorify God his Creator. So these things which were created for man's use, should degenerate from their principal and primary use, to afflict man for his disobedience, & be instruments of God's justice against the sin of man. This secondary use of these punishments even the heathen people who knew not God, 
App●um li. 1. de civili bello Rom.  did always acknowledge as profane histories and Poets do every where testify. I need not exemplify this unto you out of Livy, that the Romans custom was, if any sudden tempest arose, if lightning and thunder, if infectious of the air, or other diseases were engendered and came to pass, strait way after their manner, they sought to appease the wrath of their Gods, acknowledging that these calamities proceed from the wrath of God. Likewise the Grecians they acknowledged these accidents to be the special punishment of God for the offences of men, as you may see in Poets; when as the whole Navy was stayed at the I'll Aulis, Agamemnon the General sendeth to Calcas the Priest, to know wherein the Gods were offended, and what might appease their wrath? understanding the true cause of it, and that they should not appease the wrath of their Gods, except he sacrificed his Daughter Iphiginie, he spareth not his daughter to appease their ire. When Pharaoh was punished with Lice, Frogs, hailstones, and his cattle and people with mortality, than he acknowledged the power of God, than he desired Moses that he would pray to God to take away those plagues from him. But as soon as the plagues were removed, strait way his fear of God was gone. Take not exception against this testimony, out of the scripture, sith profane histories testify this same. Here you see an other great commodity ariseth unto mankind by these things which you call evils; For by these extraordinary punishments, men are moved to fly unto God for succour, yea even wicked men, who otherwise in their security never think on God, but continue still in their wickedness. When jonas fled by sea from the presence of God (as he thought) & God stirred up a great tempest, than the Mariners prayed to their Gods, than they prayed seriously, and from thyir hearts without hypocrisy. Otherwise in prosperity, they seldom, carelessly, and for fashion or custom sake, repeat the words of ordinary prayer without thought of God. Now, though these evils as you term them are grievous for the present time, yet considering the profit they bring unto man, as namely, they cause men to fly unto God, and seek succour and aid at his hand, they cause us to pray sincerely, heartily, and ardently unto God, they cause us to enter into examination of our former life, wherein we have offended God, and moved his wrath against us, though these things seem grievous and fearful for the time, yet cannot they properly be termed evils, considering that profit which they effect in man. Pills and potions are unpleasant and for the time cause those that take them to be sick, yet no man will term them evils; we seek to the Physician for his advise, & although we know that which he prescribeth will be bitter and unpleasant, yet we refuse them not, we acknowledge ourselves beholding unto the Physician, who prescribes them unto us, and great reason we should do so, for by physic though unpleasant, we recover health being impaired, and also preserve our bodies lest they fall into diseases, and should not we acknowledge ourselves bound unto God, and be grateful unto him, for these gentle remembrances, which you falsely call evils, who when we have forgotten our duty towards him, by these unexpected and fearful thunders, tempests, infection of the air, strange diseases and such like, are put in mind of the wrath of God against our sins, that we might repent & amend our lives, which, who so neglecteth, heapeth up to himself a heavier wrath against that day of judgement, because he regardeth not the gentle corrections and remembrances of the Lord. A fourth use of these fearful thunders, storms, winds and tempests, infection of the air, strange diseases, and consuming pestilence, 
2. Peter. 3. verse. 3.4.  is to confute such as you are, for it is prophesied of Saint Peter, (and verified by you, and a great many else,) that in the last days there will come mockers, which will walk after their own lust, & say, where is the promise of his coming, (namely Christ's coming to judgement) for since the fathers died, all things continue alike as from the beginning: such is the nature of the wicked that if God extraordinarily show not his power sometimes by punishings, but still continue his blessings, they think that those blessings which they enjoy, come not of the goodness of God, but by course of nature; but when some fearful extraordinary event come to pass, they are constrained to acknowledge that there is a God above, that which they call nature, able to do things above & contrary to nature, causing oftentimes scarcity of fruits when the whole year before hath been seasonable, and contrariwise great plenty & store, when it hath been an unseasonable year. Now, albeit some particular have sustained harm either by thunder, lightnings, tempests, or such like extraordinary event: yet hath it been for the good of the whole, that others seeing the severity of God and his extraordinary work, with fear & reverence might acknowledge his great power, yet no particular who have sustained losses by such events, can justly complain against such punishments, because no man ever sustained more than his sins deserved: unjustly therefore you call these events evils, sith so many & great good effects are wrought by them, you may call them mala paenae, which indeed are not evils, but the execution of God's justice.  Tra. 
Yea, but you shall not thus shift me off. I will directly prove there are evils in the world, properly termed evils, which if I do, it followeth that there is no such God as you imagine, for God (as you say) is omnipotent, and in him is the perfection of all goodness: either therefore God would take away all evils in the world, and cannot; or else can, and will not; or neither will, nor can take them away; or lastly, can and will. If he would and cannot, then is he not omnipotent, and therefore no God: if he can and will not, he is not as good as may be, and therefore no God. If he neither can, nor will, then is neither omnipotent, nor most good. If he can, and will, than should there be no evils in the world; but there are evils as the sins of men, which (as you say) God hateth; if he hateth them, why doth he suffer them to be? Nay, which is far worse; why are they, who most sincerely think there is a God, and therefore seriously observe his will and commandments? yet of all men are most miserable in this world, most afflicted, most contemned, and vilefied, as the experience of all ages can testify: and on the contrary, they who have been most wicked, have above all other men lived most prosperously all their life long. What an excellent man was Cato, who all his life long continually laboured to expel vice out of Rome, yet what a miserable life lived he? always hated and oppugned by the chiefest men of Rome, and after his death was no way honoured according to his worth, although he had spent his whole life▪ only in seeking to do his common wealth good. What a notable man was Pompey, for his heroical mind and noble virtues surnamed the Great, who even of his enemies and men of other nations was acknowledged to be a man of excellent virtues. Yet, especially in his latter days, what a troublesome life lived he? What an unworthy end had he? and after his death no ways graced. On the contrary, base & vicious Licinus, a notarious flatterer, Barber to Augustus, was dearly beloved of the Emperor Augustus, graced by the Senators of Rome, all his life lived most happily, and after his death was dignified with a majestical tomb: Insomuch that Beroaldus i●steth at it, Marmoreo Licinus tumulo jacet, at Cato parvo.  
Pompeius' nullo, credimusiesse deos. Licinus a vicious base flattering Barber, laeth in a majestical tomb. Virtuous Cato lieth in a little tomb, great Pompey hath none at all: and can we think there are Gods? What a noble minded Roman was Brutus, who spent his whole life in defence of the liberties of his country, sustained the hatred of all wicked Tyrants: yet at length was he overthrown by Caesar, an an far worse than himself, though he confidently expected the aid of his Gods having a good cause on his side, the defence of his country, but all in vain, and being deceived of his expected aid, falleth on the point of his sword, crying out, Ista iovem haud latent, quinque est horum causa malorum accusing jupiter that he saw all his miseries, yet helped him not; nay, that he was the cause of all his miseries, Contrariwise, what a monster was Dionysius the tyrant, who delighted in wickedness and jested at the gods? Who, when he had rob the temple of Proserpina at Locris, sailing prosperously home to Syracuse, said to his fellows, do ye not see my companions, what a prosperous sailing the gods have given to us Church-robbers? and being fleshed herein, afterwards sailed to Peloponesus, and came into the Temple of jupiter, where jupiter was clothed wi●h a cloak of cloth of gold, gibing at him, took off his cloak of gold saying, that it was too cold for winter, & too heavy for summer, and put his own cloak on him made of will: saying, that that was warmer for the winter, & lighter for the summer, fit for all seasons of the year: also he took off from Esculapius his golden beard, saying it was not sit the sun should be bearded, since his father was alway painted without a beard; afterward he took out all the Gold and Silver, and vessels of the temples, and sold it in the market: when he had received the price of it, than he made proclamation that whosoever had any vessels pertaining to the temples they should within a certain day, restore them to the temples again, because it was not lawful for to profane that which was consecrated to holy uses. This Monster lived forty years prosperously, died not unfortunately, and left his kingdom to his Son peaceablelye, which by lewd means he usurped. You know what Diogenes was wont to say of Harpalus (a notorious thief, and most prosperous) that he was a great argument against the gods: meaning that if there were any gods, or if they had any care what was done here on earth, they would never suffer such a notorious thief to live so long, and so prosperously. If these examples be not sufficient, read Plutarch, of the lives of the most famous Grecians and Romans, read, Boccace de casibus illustrium virorum, where you shall find always the better man he was, the more oppositions he had in all his life. Now, lest you should take any exception against these examples taken out of profane histories, as you term them, I will prove this also out of the scripture: in the time of job, great was the prosperity of the wicked. 
job. 21.  The wicked live & waxeth old, saith job & grow in wealth, their seed is established in their sight, their houses are peaceable without fear, & the rod of the lord is upon them, their cattle increase and prosper, they send forth their children like sheep, and their sons dance; they take the tabret & harp, and rejoice in the sound of the Organs: they say unto God, depart from us, for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways: who is the almigh ie that we should serve him? or what Prophet should we have if we should pray unto him? Likewise in the time of David, such was their prosperity, that he confesseth that he was greatly moved at it. My feet had almost slipped, 
Psalm. 73.  when I saw the prosperity of the wicked, they are lusty and strong, they are not in trouble like other men, they are full of pride, and cruelty, their eyes stand out with fatness, they have more than their heart can wish, they air licentious, and speak wickedly of their oppression, they talk presumptuously, they set their mouth against Heaven: Doth not this matter so far move the Prophet jeremy, 
jerem. 12.  that he doth expostulate the matter with God, why it should be so: saying, O Lord, if I dispute with thee concerning thy judgements thou art just: Yet let me talk with thee concerning thy judgements. Wherefore do the way of the wicked prosper, why are they in wealth that rebelliously transgress? thou hast planted them, and they take root: they grow and bring forth fruit; thou art near in their mouths, but far from their hearts. Doth not the Prophet Hàbakuk the like? 
Hab. 2.13.  Wherefore (saith he to God) dost thou behold the transgressors, and hold thy tongue, when the wicked devoureth the man that is more just than himself? Were not the worst men the happiest men in the time of the Prophet Malachi? 
Malach. 3.15.  they openly professed, that it was in vain to serve God. And they show (in mine opinion) a good reason for it: For say they, The wicked are blessed, even they that work wickedness, are set up, & they that tempt God, are delivered.  
Now tell me, what master of a family, having good and bad servants in his family, would frown on the good, and speak friendly to the wicked? afflict the good, and deal roughly with them? and grace the bad, and deal friendly with them? yea suffer them to enjoy their hearts desire? If a mortal man qualified with ordinary honesty, will not do this; can you think, that if there were a God who respected what is done one art, would suffer these things? Thus you see I can if need be, play the Divine.  Stud. 
But to the dishonour of God, the Devil, by whose spirit you speak, taught you this: who also used the scripture, but to a bad purpose. Spider's even of the best & sweetest flowers get matter, good in itself, but being infected by their ill breath, is turned into poison: so such as you are, gather out of good flowers the word of God, good matter, but by the infection of your ill spirits, you turn it to worse than poison. But to let this pass, you instance by many examples, that there are many evils amongst men, and hereon you thus conclude: Either God would take away all these evils out of the world, and cannot; or else can, and will not; or neither can, nor will; or can, and will. If he would & cannot, he is weak, and therefore no God. If he can, and will not, he is envious, which cannot be in God. If ●e neither can, nor will, he is both weak and envious. But weakness nor envy cannot be in God, if there be any; for if there be a God, he must needs be omnipotent and most good, or else no God. If he can & will, how cometh it to pass that there are so many evils amongst men? First I grant that there are evils, and properly, evils the sins of men, which God could take away, and therefore no weakness in him: but he doth not, not of envy towards mankind, but for his greater good: and this is the reason why there are so many evils amongst men. For in that there are evils, both the glory of God, and the good of men, is made more manifest: so that it neither standeth with the glory or goodness of God, to take them away, but to suffer them to be. Now, to make this manifest unto you, give me leave to prove, first that God is not the author of evils: secondly to show whence they spring. For the first point, that God is not the Author of these evils; God, who is goodness itself, whose property is to communicate his goodness to others, made the whole world that his creatures might participate of his goodness. Unto the perfection whereof, it was behoveful that there should be divers degrees of different natures. He hath made four degrees of things the are in the world. The lowest degree whereof, hath only his being without life, without sense or motion, without reason: and of this kind are the four Elements, Fire, air, Water, and the Earth. Of the second degree, ●re those things which beside their being have life; as trees, flowers of the field, which sometimes grow and increase, sometimes die. A third kind are they which besides their being, and life, have also sense, motion, able to move from place to place, as beasts, fowls, fish. The fourth and highest degree have besides these things before mentioned, reason, and wisdom: and in this degree of creatures, are only men & Angels. In these four degrees are comprehended all the creatures that God hath made, and all these were created good. Now, evils have no place among the things created, neither can it, because it hath no essence or being in itself, but is a defect of that good which should be in things created, by the default of the creature, and not of the Creator. As blindness is a defect of the eyes, sickness an indisposition and disproportion of the four Elements with their qualities with should be in the body, whereby the members of the body are not able freely to execute their functions. Yet because evils serve for the greater commendations of those things that are good; and things good, do more apparently show their goodness by comparing them with evils, as sickness once tried, maketh health to be more grateful unto us; meats are then most sweet unto us, when we have been long hungry; the light more pleasant unto us, & better welcome after much darkness, heavy, and gloomy weather. Therefore although God doth not cause them, yet he hindereth them not, but suffereth them to have a kind of dependency on his creatures, for the greater good of the universal: yet thus far he hindereth evils to be; that they break not out, but when, and where he list: else would the malice of the Devil and wicked men quickly bring all things to nought: he governeth, and guideth them for his own glory, and good of his own elect: for he would no way suffer them to be, except he used them to good purpose; for the punishment of the wicked to show his justice, and for the furtherance and behalf of his elect. This being shown, the God is not the author of them, and that they have no being amongst all the works of God, but are blemishes and defects of things created; it now followeth to show you the first original cause from whence they came, which was the free will of man wilfully disobeying his creator, who had this excellent gift bestowed on him, that he had an ability, free will, & power either to obey his maker; or if he would, disobey him: in obeying his maker consisted his felicity; in disobeying, his misery and woe. All the sins in the world (which only can properly be called evil, excepting the disobedience of the Devil) proceed from the free will of man. There is no cruelty, no adultery, oppression, hatred, malice, or in a word, no sin, but proceedeth from the free will of man. But you say, why doth God suffer cruelty, oppression, and wrong, as that heroical Brutus, or sincere Cato should be continually oppugned all their life long? And why doth God suffer Dionysius and Harpalus, and such monsters to live so prosperously? To the first I answer, that if God should have suffered no oppressor of his common wealth to have lived in Brutus his time, how should Brutus have showed his virtues, in withstanding Tyrants? if there had lived no wicked and lewd person in Cato's time, Cato could not have been so virtuous. Who so will take away all wickedness, by consequent taketh away virtue; for virtue consisteth in rooting out vice: where there is no wrong done, there can be no patience showed; where there is no resistance, there can be no victory; and where there is no victory, no crown. Again, God suffereth wicked Dionysius, Harpalus, and such like, to live here on earth happily, that in the day of judgement they might be without excuse; 
Rom. 1.18 Psal. 17.14  and this is their portion of joys which ever they shall have: so that we need not envy their short felicity, considering the everlasting pains they are to endure. And albeit such be their monstrous behahaviour, that they deserve not the happiness of one day, yet such is the exceeding goodness of God, that he will have even the worst of his creatures to have a taste of his goodness; even Satan and all the wicked spirits of hell had a taste of God's goodness before they fell from the good estate wherein God created them. There is no wicked man so absolutely bad, but that at some time or other, hath at the least some show or shadow of some virtue or other: now such is the love of God unto virtues, that he will bless with temporal blessings even the shadows of virtue. Again, he suffereth such wicked monsters to live, for the good of his elect; that they seeing the deformity of vice in them, might be moved the more seriously to detestation of vice, and to a more ardent love of virtue. Furthermore, he suffereth such wicked creatures to live, for the exercise of the good: to manifest their hearts, whether they will oppose themselves against vice, or be drawn away unto ungodliness by their enticements. Lastly, he suffereth such monsters to live, to manifest the hearts of his elect. For to try their hearts whether they love him sincerely, or no. For a true natural son cannot see his father dishonoured, but he will be moved at it, and oppose himself against those that dishonour him; and no true elect of God can endure to see God dishonoured by wicked men, but he will bend himself against them. The Lord himself saith, that he will send false Prophets amongst you, to try your hearts, 
Deut. 13.3  whether ye love him, or no. Whether we will stick unto his word, or be carried away by the false persuasion of wicked seducers, or lewd livers. To this end God stirred up many enemies against the children of Israel even to try their hearts, whether they would trust in the help of God, or seek indirect means to bring themselves out of troubles. 
Deut. 15.11.  To this end God (who could have made, that no man should have needed the help of other men) sendeth the poor amongst us, commanding us to relieve them, to try our hearts whether we more regard our wealth, than his commandment. 
Ps. 129.2.  For albeit God knoweth all the thoughts of men's hearts long before they are, yet because he hath appointed a general day of judgement wherein he will judge every man according to his works, 
jer. 17.10  he will stir up such occasions unto all men, whereby by their works they shall manifest what is in their hearts, that he may reward every man according to his works. Now, whereas you say that he is an ill master of a family, who having good and bad servants in his house, will grace & do good unto the bad, and deal hardly with the good, and frown on them: your Comparison holdeth not, because the duty of man is prescribed unto him what he ought to do; reason, the laws both human and divine, do bind us to do good, especially to those that do well, and punish those that do ill: and who so doth not this offendeth. But you must consider, that God is above all law. If he of his bounty will bestow his blessings on the wicked who deserve them not, if he cause the sun to rise as well on the wicked as the just, he offendeth not: may he not do with his own what seemeth best unto himself? he may show mercy to whom he will without breach of law or justice. Again, if he lay afflictions on the good, their sins deserve more punishment, than ever any suffered affliction here on earth. What if he send trouble on them to try whether they will murmur against him, or with patience endure those things which they know cometh on them by the appointment of God? is he therefore unjust, who by these means maketh their patience & other virtues to shine more gloriously?  Trau. 
In this your answer, to free God from being the Author of sin, which is only and properly evil, you lay the fault on the free will of man, who willingly doth disobey the will of his Maker. But I take this for no answer: for if God who (as you affirm) foreseeth all things, and is omnipotent, and able to prevent all evils to come. Why did he give man free will the which he knew he would abuse to his dishonour, and his own hurt? Why did he not make him so firm, that he should not have been able to sin?  Stud. 
As well might you find fault that God made man, as that he gave him free-will: free-will and reason are the greatest gifts under the sun; whereby only man excelleth all other creatures; whereby he is made able to do those things which are acceptable to his maker. If you take away free-will, so that man should not be able to transgress the law of his Maker; Wherein should he be any whit better than fire, which naturally burneth and can do no other? 
Zanch. lib. 5 cap. 1. Thes. 2. de natura Dei. Muscul. in locis come. tract. de li. arb. Pet. Mart. in loc. come. tract. de lib. arb. sect. 23  or from the sun, which naturally shineth, and can do no other? take away free will, and you take away all virtues. The excellency of free will consisteth in embracing virtues, and eschewing, and resisting evils. Take away free will from man, and you take out of man the image of God. For as God cannot be constrained; so neither the free will of man, no creature hath power to constrain it. Take away free will from man, and you take away the means of attaining to the joys of heaven: no man can truly believe, nor virtuously live but by free will. 
joh. 8.36.  God hath given man free will to dignify him; for by the means of free will, man in some sort abtayneth everlasting bliss. For albeit no man is able to do any good work without the special grace of God, 
Aug. lib. 50 homil. 14. Tom. 10. lib. de great. & lib. arb. c. 17. to. 7. tom. 10. de verb. Apost. serm. 13. Bed. in Ep. ad Rom. ●. 3. in fin. cap.  yet man is not herein merely passive; as a sword with than only cutteth, when man striketh with him, but is no agent or doer of himself: but when the will of man is persuaded by the operation of the holy Ghost to work those things which please God, he doth it willingly, and useth his natural faculties, 
Bar. m. 2.2. Tho. Aqui. quaest. 10. art. 1. & sequent. Perkins in his reformed Catholic, in the point of free wil  for the performance of it, he laboureth & taketh pains in it, although the holy Ghost be the principal and efficient cause of every good work, without whom no man can work any good work, yet is it Remota causa, a remote cause, from which, actions usually take not their name and denomination. But commonly à proxima causa from the nearest cause of any effect. The Sun cannot give light except God continue him in his natural virtue: 
Vide Keker man. lib. 1. de causis subordinat. syat. logicae. sol. 144.  the fire cannot give heat except God give and continue in it his virtue so to do. God is the primary cause of these virtues, yet we say not, (when the Sun shineth, or the fire heateth) that God giveth light, or God heateth. But the sun giveth light, and the Fire heateth; so man by free will believeth in Christ, and by a godly conversation endeavoureth to make his election sure, but by the working also of the holy Ghost.  Trau. 
Well. I grant that free will is an excellent quality in man: but why did God give Adam a law which he knew he would not keep, but through his free will break it? had it not been for this law, all things had been well.  Stud. 
Why, do you think it reason, that when God had bestowed on man free will, whereby he had power either to honour his Maker, or dishonour him at his will; That Adam should be left free without punishment, if he would (having power to do it) be ungrateful to God, or dishonour his Maker? Is it ill to be bound to do well having power absolute to perform it, as Adam had? Do Princes ill, who make good laws for their common wealth, which they know will sometimes be broken? The laws which Princes make for the good of their common wealth, are very many in number. Some very hard to be observed: the weakness and frailty of men since the fall of Adam is now very great: yet you cannot justly find fault with Princes, for making many good laws, (without which a common wealth cannot stand) though they know they will be broken: much less can you justly find fault with God, who gave but one law to Adam, & such a law as was very easy to be observed: neither was he hindered with any frailty as we are, but was endued with excellent graces whereof we have not as yet tasted. Besides this, as God foresaw the fall of Adam, so did he provide in his mercy, and not for any desert of man, a remedy for it, even his only begotten son jesus Christ for a redemption for our sin, that we by repentance & faith in jesus Christ, might attain remission for our sins. Neither would God have suffered Adam to have fallen, but that by the consequent thereof, he intended of his goodness to turn it to the greater good of almankind. Had not Adam fallen, many excellent virtues which now appear in man, could not have been, they could have had no place or use in the state of innocency, fortitude & courage, patience, love of our enemies, compassion, continency & such like, are excellent virtues. All these have no place in the state of innocency. How can fortitude & courage be shown, where there is no resistance? Now, the children of God show their courage in resisting the il practices of wicked men, & resisting temptations. How can patience be showed where there is no wrong done? now the elect of God suffer patiently many oppressions, yea they pray for their oppressors, that God would give them repentance, they patiently endure hunger and thirst, poverty, sickness, and such like. How can the excellency of love and charity be shown, if we had no enemies, whose wrongs and injuries through charity we pardon and forgive? How could pity and compassion be showed, if there were none in misery, or needed our help? how could abstinence be showed, if there were no alluring baits in the world; or our unbridled lusts did not tempt us to do that which we should not do? Reason it was, that Adam should have some matter wherein he should show his obedience to his Maker, and acknowledge God's sovereignty over him, with could not he, except he were bound to some duty or other. Again, had not Adam fallen, where could God's justice in justly punishing wickedness, appear? his mercy could have had no matter wherein it might appear, as now it doth, in pardoning offenders, in delivering the afflicted out of misery. How should the greatness of God's love towards men be known, who spared not his only beloved Son to redeem man being fallen, for whose sake, we shall obtain not an earthly paradise, but the everlasting kingdom of heaven, far exceeding the happiness of Paradise? In these, and the like respects, the Father's term the fall of Adam a happy fall; not that Adam did well in disobeying God. But for the event, because God of his mercy hath turned this fall and disobedience to man's greater good, making sin which in itself is bad, to serve for the greater setting forth of his own glory, and the good of man. As a cunning Painter useth black colours being the worst and unpleasantest colours in themselves, in the fairest pictures, the more to set out the pleasantness of other colours; & more beautiful doth that picture seem, wherein there are degrees and diversities of colours one better then another, than any picture made only of the purest white: so that you see, that without reason you blame God for giving Adam a law with he knew he would break; & in not hindering him to fall, though he could have hindered him. Adam only justly is to be blamed, who wilfully offended. God made Adam of that excellency, that besides the great felicity he gave him, gave him also ability, that without difficulty, he might have continued therein. God now permitteth sins which he could hinder; yet he doth not hinder them, not for that he liketh or alloweth of them, but for the greater good of his elect. For when as any of his elect are overtaken with sin, their fall doth make them know their own weakness, & how frail they are of themselves without the special assistance of God: if God should not sometimes withhold his assisting grace from his elect, and leave them to their own strength, but continually uphold them from falling, they would wax proud, and ascribe that unto themselves, which proceedeth from the special assistance of God, thinking that in that they persisted in integrity, it were by their own proper power, and not by the special grace of God. Wherefore Augustine saith, I dare confidently affirm, that it is good for the elect of God, sometimes to fall, that thereby they may be humbled, and that they might acknowledge their own weakness, and seek unto God by hearty prayer, for his especial assistance. Besides this, they who have been overtaken with sin, by knowing the frailty of man, are more prone to have compassion on the like infirmities in their brethren. 
Virg.  Haud ignara mali, miseris succurrere disco, saith Dido. They that have felt the smart of grief, are more easily moved to have compassion on such as are in grief and misery, them they that never felt any. Again, by falling now and then, and feeling the torments of a guilty conscience, they are made more careful & heedful, how they afterward walk; & they make more ardent prayers unto God, for his assistance, then before they did: thus you see, that the name of God is to be praised, who gave so notable a gift unto man as free will, and that it standeth with great reason, that Adam should be by some law bound to honour his Maker, though God knew that he would not observe it, & that the fall of Adam though he was faulty only therein, having full power and ability not to have fallen yet by the grace and goodness of God, it is turned to be a happy fall; because thereby, both the justice of God, and his mercy do most gloriously appear, and also many excellent virtues by sonsequent thereof, do now appear in man, which in the state of innocency, could have no place. God did well therefore in not hindering Adam to do that which by his free will he would do: but Adam did ill in eating the forbidden fruit, having full power to forbear it, and bound by the law of his Creator to the contrary.  Tra. 
Well, say all that you have spoken be true, yet your assertion of the especial providence of God over his elect, concerning his special care over them, is so palpably false, that the histories of all ages, the experience of all men do convince you most evidently, and because you shall not deny this, I will first prove it out of the Scriptures, than out of other histories: you cannot deny but that jacob was an elect of God, how was he driven for fear of his life, to forsake his natural country, and his parents, to live in servitude under an unjust master: & after many years of servitude being not able any longer to endure it, was fain to entreat his wicked brother Esaw a reprobate, as you hold him to be, and live at his devotion. Contrariwise Esaw a wicked person lived at home, at ease, and pleasure, never knew what servitude & hardness meant; is this the especial care over his elect? you cannot deny but that joseph was an elect of God. Was not he even in his childhood hated of his own wicked brother, some of them meant to take his life from him, all of them agreed to sell him to strangers of far countries, never to be hard of again, being carried away as a bondslave. How was he wronged by false accusation, imprisoned as a malefactor, though he was none; his brethren in the mean time who did him this wrong, lived at ease and pleasure? How doth the especial care of God here appear? David was an elect you cannot deny, a man according to Gods own heart, how was he hunted from place to place, constrained to flee to his enemies, and there fain himself mad to save his life, constrained to live in wildernesses, in holes and caves, and yet there not secure? but as a Fox still pursued, hated, and reviled of the wicked. But what need I give instance in particulars? Do not your Apostle reckon up the misery of Christians? in general? that they were scorned, whipped, put in bands, 
Hebr. 11.  and imprisoned, some stoned to death, some cut a sunder, some wandered in wildernesses in sheep-skinnes, and goate-skinnes, for fear of persecutions, destitute of necessaries, oppressed, and evil entreated; hiding themselves in caves, and dens. Now, if you read profane Histories as you term them, how full are they of the miseries of Christians? what eager enemies of the Christians were the ten Persecutors before Constantine the great? what unheard of torments were invented, only to torment the Christians? how doth the Emperor julian insult over them? who gave leave to all men to use them as bad as they list. And when any Christians made complaint of any wrong done unto them, he would turn them away with this answer, You are not to mislike the wrongs which are done unto you; for happy are ye, when men revile you, & persecute you: if one strike you on the one cheek, you must turn the other: scorns, gybes, and flouts, were all the comfort and remedy they could get. Nay, now amongst Christians who are more scorned, derided, vexed; who suffer greater wants; who oftener troubled with diseases and infirmities of the body, than the sincerest men. Strange it is, how you with a bare conceit of an especial care of God over the best men, are carried against the common experience of all former ages, by the testimonies of all records divine & profane, against your own expetience which show the contrary, & cannot be brought out of your error. If to be tormented, hated, reviled, persecuted, pinched with penury, troubled with many diseases, and weakness above other men, be to be in the especial favour of God, and to be under his special protection: let me be but of his especial favour; for most manifest it is, that the estate of the Godly, is worse than the ungodly.  Stud. 
Strange it is to see your grossness, who so speak, as if our souls died with our bodies, as if there were no judgement to come; as if hereafter neither the just should be rewarded, nor the wicked suffer punishment: but that you may understand the grossness of your error, in imagining that in the God sendeth tribulation on his elect, it proceedeth of the want of care over them, supposing that far better is the estate of the ungodly, then the godly in this world, judging by the outward appearance, and not according to truth For albeit the godly in this world are hated, despised, persecuted, and afflicted of the ungodly, yet even in this world (notwithstanding these evils which commonly happen unto them) if comparison be made of the miseries of the ungodly and godly, you shall find manifestly, (if you examine them duly) that far greater are the miseries even in this life of the ungodly, then are the miseries the godly, for the goly even in the midst of their miseries, are full of joy and hope: but the ungdoly are vexed continually with the surfeit of their pleasures: And as the godly seriously and without hypocrisy, do endeavour with their whole heart to please God: so their sincere conscience continually giveth them an assured hope of the love God in Christ, & maketh them confident, so that neither tribulation, nor anguish, nor persecution, nor famine, nor nakedness, nor peril, nor sword, nor life, nor death, nor Angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, can separate them from the love of God. They are assured, that as long as they continue in the true fear & worship of God, they are under the especial protection of god, that no creatue can harm them, they know that all things, even afflictions make for their good: this their assured hope, is not a vain confidence: but is so certain, and true, and confirmed by continual experience, that the wicked and heathen people do acknowledge it to be true. 
Num. 23.8.20.21.  Wicked Balaam, who was most willing to have cursed the people of Israel, confessed unto Balack that he had no power against them, because they continued in the fear of God, and therefore advised Balack (if he would prevail against them) to cause them to sin, 
Num. 31.16.  than should he prevail against them This did the wife of Haman and his wise counsellors being heathen people, acknowledge that if Mordecay were of the seed of the jews, 
Ester. 6.13  that he could not prevail against him, acknowledging gods special protection over the jews, who relied on no human force or defence, but trusted only in the protection of God. This did Rahab a heathen, acknowledge that no people was able to withstand the jews, because the God of heaven gave them victory against their enemies, 
josua. 2.  so that all the nations round about them, were in fear of them. This did Achior a heathen acknowledge being taught by examples of former ages, that as long as the jews the people of God, continued in the fear of God, no people was able to prevail against them, & therefore adviseth Holophernes, first to inquire and search out, whether the jews had forsaken the law of their God or no, before he went against them? if they had, then might he set upon them safely, for then their God would give them over in to his hands, 
judeth. 5.  and he should prevail against them; but if they had not forsaken the law of their God, he adviseth him to pass by them, and not meddle with them, lest their God should defend them, and then he should be put to shame and confusion: but proud Holophernes contemned his advise, and God defended them, because they had not forsaken his law; so that according to the words of Achior, he was confounded. This point Achior proved by many former examples to be true, unto Holophernes; And Rahab also unto the spies which came into Caanan: All which events came not to pass by chance, but by the ordinance of God, who before these things came to pass foreshowed the people of Israel, that if they continued in his fear, and observed his laws, 
Deu. 11.25  he would put a fear into the hearts of all the nations round about them: So that, no nation should be able to withstand them, which according to his promise always fell out so true, that their enemies were driven to confess the goodness of God towards them. Now, albeit God doth so protect his elect, that no Nation, or any enemies shall prevail against them; yet doth he not in this world set them free from all adversities, but layeth many troubles on them, not because he delighteth to see them in trouble, but because the nature of virtue (in which he would have them to excel) is such, that it cannot be shown, but in courageously and patiently enduring and resisting evils, as also, because such is the corrupt nature of man, that if he should continually be blessed here on earth with temporal blessings, he would degenerate from all virtue and goodness. Which point heathen people by the light only of nature and daily experience have always acknowledged this to be true: and therefore held this for a true ground, that adversity was the occasion of all virtues. When Cleomenes therefore was demanded, 
Plutarch.  why the Lacedæmonians did not utterly destroy the Argives who often rebelled against them, since it was in their power to have destroyed them oftentimes, made this answer, that we might have some to exercise our youths, signifying, that the virtue of their City could not stand without an enemy: so likewise when the Romans had the Carthaginians at that advantage, that it was in their power utterly to destroy it, great debating there was in the Senate, whether it were convenient it should be destroyed. The wiser sort held it was convenient for their common wealth, to have enemies; else experience showed them, that they wolud contend one against another with vices: but notwithstanniding it was decreed, the Carthage should utterly be destroyed. 
Aug. li. 1. de civit. Dei.  Which being destroyed, they having no enemies, they fell at strife amongst themselves, which was the ruin of their state. And Livy reporteth of the soldiers of Hannibal, who were such, that as I think, never were better before them, nor since: yet these so valiant soldiers, lying in garrison but one winter at ease in Capua, where there were great store of victuals, he saith of them, that they came into Capua more valiant than men; but went forthmore effeminate than women. And Eusebius speaking of the great persecutions wherein many Christians perished by cruelty of the persecuting Emperors: but at length God gave them an Emperor, who favoured them so, that for a little space, they enjoyed prosperity. But, saith he, in this little time of prospety, more Christians perished by the vices of prosperity, then by the cruelty of the persecutors. Sith therefore such is the nature of virtue, that it cannot be virtue, without opposition, and such is the nature of men, that they will soon be corrupted with worldly pleasure. God hath so ordained, that his elect through many tribulations (show therein their virtues and graces which otherwise would be obscure and lay hid) should enter into the kingdom of God. This being the ordinance of God, his elect knowing this his will and ordinance for their good, do willingly embrace them as tokens of his good will, and with joy endure all tribulations, which it pleaseth God to lay upon, they know he is good and loving to those that serve and trust in him, and that he watcheth over them to do them good, they know that the son of violence shall not be able to touch them without his special permission, who never permitteth him, but when it maketh for their good; they have not their eyes fixed on Tyrants that wrong them, but on God who useth them as his instruments for their good, though for their pain and grief. This caused David when he was reviled by Simei, 
2. Sam. 16.10.  with patience to let him go unrevenged, acknowledging, that God caused him to revile him, that he might be humbled and brought to repentance for his former sins. This caused the Apostles when they were beaten for preaching of Christ, to go away rejoicing, because they were thought worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. 
Act. 5.41. Heb. 11.24.25.26.  This caused Moses to refuse to be called the son of Pharaoes' daughter, & to choose rather to suffer adversity with the people of God, then to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season, esteeming the rebuke of Christ, greater riches, than all the treasures of Egypt. No tribulation or persecution can daunt the hearts of the elect: they are afraid of no evil tidings, but are confident and bold, because God is their protection. The spirit of God reigneth in them, who causeth in them continually joy and peace: though all the world should bend themselves against them, the peace of conscience which they enjoy causeth them to be afraid of no evil tidings, but their hearts stand fast and believe in the Lord, mistrustful fear hath no power over them. Clean contrary is it in the wicked, 
Eph. 2.2. 2. Tim. 2.26.  in whom Satan reigneth, and leadeth them after his own will. Though they have all worldly felicity at will, yet do they not enjoy them: but their wealth, honours, dignities, and pleasures be unto them, as are the pleasant apples, & pleasant river to Tantalus, the more to augment their hunger & thirst: they are never contented with them, nor satisfied. Yea, Satan stirreth up in them vehement affections which never suffereth them to be at rest, and tormenteth them with their own lusts and desires. This, both histories profane and divine, 
Plutar. in the life of Pirrus.  and daily experience do prove unto us. Plutarch reporteth of Pirrus King of Epire, that his kingdom seemed far too little for his desires, and therefore he could not be quiet, but must seek means to enlarge it, though with the danger of his own estate Which ambitious humour, Cineas an excellent Orator and his chief Counsellor perceiving, endeavoured to alter his determination, and finding him alone, demandeth of him, why he would seek to conquer Italy (for that he knew was his first resolutition) sith already he had sufficient. O saith he, it would be a great enlargement for my dominions, if I had Italy, than it were but a little cut over to Sicily. That being gotted (saith Cineas) will you then be contented? O saith he, if we had these, it were easy to obtain Carthage. But what if you had Carthage to? what would you do then? Why then (said he smiling) we would live at ease, we would eat and drink, feast, and be merry with our friends. But (saith Cineas) if that be all the cause, you will enterprise these matters which cannot be obtained without great wrong and hurt unto others, and loss of your own subjects. Why do you not now take your pleasure & ease, and feast, and be merry with your friends? This you may do now, nothing hindereth you. Although Pirrus could give no reasonable reply to this, yet is he so far from yielding to reason, that he was displeased with Cineas, because he discovered his folly, having no intent to be altered from his purpose, though most unreasoble; but afterward, proceeding in his purpose, and having gotten some part of Italy, & some part of Cicilie, at length, with grief and reproach lost all again. Ahab a King, who wanted nothing but a contented mind; see his troubled passions, though he had a great deal more than sufficient, yet is not quiet, he must have Nabothes vineyard, which might not law fully be had: and being denied his unlawful desire, what joy taketh he of all his kingdom beside? because he cannot have this one vineyard, he returneth home heavy and in displeasure, he falleth sick for grief, 
1. King. 21 4.  and casteth himself upon his bed, refuseth comfort, refuseth meat. He never could be in quiet, until by most unlawful means, perjury, and murder, he obtained his desire; and having obtained his desire, what ensued, but repentance and grief of mind, and utter destruction to him and his wicked posterity: who seemeth to be in greater prosperity then ambitious Haman, who boasted of his own honour wherein he was with his King and Queen above all the Nobles of the realm, boasteth of his great riches & promotion; but yet confesseth withal, that he took no delight in all these, 
Ester. 5.13  because Mordecay the jew did not rise up & reverence him. See what a little trifle can mar all the mirth of the wicked, unto whom God giveth not the gift to enjoy that which they have. 
Eccl. 5.18.  Who might seem to be in better estate than Amnon who was a kings son, on whom no outward calamities fell? But yet his wicked mind marred all his fefelicitie. He falleth in love with his sister Thamar so extremely, that he falleth sick with love, pineth away with grief of mind, refused to take any food, he will obtain his wicked purpose, or else pine to death, so violently is he carried in his affections: but afterward having obtained his unlawful lust, than he hateth his sister more than he loved her before, 
2. Samuel. 19.15.  thus are the wicked carried without reason or measure to desire that which is unlawful, and when they have performed and satisfied their unlawful lusts, they then begin to late to condemn their follies with grief and vexation of mind; therefore are the wicked by reason of their violence and unconstancy in their affections, 
Psal. 35.5.6.  compared unto dust in the wind, and the Angel of the Lord persecuting them, the persecuting Angel of the Lord, even Satan driving them violently too and fro, they never have rest or quietness. Consider the unquiet thoughts of the covetous person, 
Eccle. 31.1  he lieth waking in the night, when others take their rest, and pineth himself with careful thoughts, he casteth in his mind many unlawful means how to become rich, he spareth no labour and pain, yea, goeth barely, feedeth sparingly on course victuals, that he might be wealthy: and when he hath riches more than sufficient, he is then more troubled then before, lest his own servants deceive him, and on the night season when he should take his rest, if but a dog bark, or a mouse stir in his chamber, he is strait ways troubled, than he thinketh that some thief is come to take his life & goods away; if his head do but ache, them is he more troubled with grief of mind, than the headache, for fear he should die and leave all his riches; thus with labour and pining care he getteth his riches, possesseth them in great and continual fear, and when he dieth, departeth from them with great grief & vexation of mind. These torments of a covetous man, the heathen men well observed, and Poets have notably described them. 
Plautus. Horace. Juvenal.  Heathen men saw that their minds were ever troubled, but they could not reach to the principal cause thereof, they knew not that the judgement of God was the cause of it, they ascribed it to second causes, as to the reason and conscience of men: both which constraineth men to acknowledge that they ought to do well; & when they do ill they condemn themselves, and they cannot deny but that therefore they have deserved punishment, & consequently with fear they expect it. This point the miserable life of Richard the third King of this Realm doth notably prove: who, from the time he murdered his brother's sons to obtain the kingdom, never enjoyed one happy hour, but continually was vexed with fears and suspicions, mistrusted all men, persuaded himself that he was hated of all men (for so he deserved) therefore from that time, he went always with his hand upon his Dagger, ready to entertain him that set upon him, fearing every hour conspiracies against him, and often in the night would leap out of his bed, and flee to his Weapons, when no man thought him hurt. Lastly, if you will believe one well experienced in the miseries of a wicked mind; Mark how Dionysius the Tyrant of Sicily describeth them: who, when as Damocles his flatterer highly commended his felicity whom all the kingdom of Sicily stood in awe of, to show how far Damocles was deceived in his opinion, caused a notable banquet to be set before Damocles, and caused a Sword to be hanged over the head of Damocles, by a small hair, which when Damocles beheld, he was so stricken with fear, lest it should fall on his head, that he could eat none of the dainties set before him, but desired to be absent from such a feast. Hereby Dionysius signified unto him, that although it seemed a glorious matter, to have all Sicily to bow unto him, yet because he by wicked practices had obtained the Kingdom, he daily and hourly feared some evil or other, so true is that speech of job concerning the wicked, 
job. 15.21 & 24.23.  a sound of fear is in his ears, and though men give him assurance to be in safety, yet his eyes are set on their ways, the supiciously observe the countenance and doings of all men, still mistrusting some mischief to be working against them. Wherefore the estate of the wicked in this world is very well compared unto the raging of the sea, 
Esay. 57.20.  which never is at quiet, one wave breaketh itself against another, the motions thereof casteth up nothing but dirt and mire: So the contrary passions of the wicked, bandeth themselves one against another, and all of them bring forth the filthiness of an evil mind, trouble and vexation, noisome and hurtful to themselves and others: and albeit many of them are very worldly wise, who by their devices and worldly policies, seek to establish themselves in a happy estate; yet are all their devices very well compared to the house of a Spider, 
job. 8.14.  who (as a learned writer saith) by wasting his own bowels, spinneth his web, and passing curiously composeth it, yet a little puff of wind casteth it and him down: So albeit many wicked men excel in worldly policy, so that their cunning devices seem to excel the skill of the spider to entrap flies, though they spend themselves in compassing their skilful devices, yet are all their devices no stronger than a spider's web, to withstand the judgements of God, when it pleaseth him to blow upon them, and bring their devices to nought. Yea, their own devices entangle themselves, 
Proverb. 5 22. & cap. 12.3.  and work their own overthrow. And albeit they wickedly think not so, yet indeed they themselves are the executioners of gods judgement against their own sins, by their unbridled lusts. For manifest proof hereof, consider the drunkard, doth he not by his inordinate drinking, bring diseases on himself, cause his own name to stink before all men, and waste his goods and bring himself and those that depend on him to beggary? now, to infect with diseases, and to defame and bring any man into hatred of all men, to spoil a man of his gods to his undoing is to punish, and all these drunkards do unto themselves therefore are they they themselves the executioners of gods judgements against themselves, though they think not so: the glutton likewise by overcharging his stomach, causeth many crudities in his body which engender many diseases, by which diseases their bodies are tormented, and their minds infected with many noisone lusts, both made unable to do any good: the incontinent person sinneth against his own body, misspending that which continueth life: and consequently falleth into such loathsome diseases as cannot be with modesty named, so that many of them live not out half their natural days; or if they live, they live in reproach amongst men, and the best end of them, is beggary. I need not reckon up the vexations of covetous men, or the proud ambition man never contented in his estate, or any other vicious man, since there is none so simple but may easily discern this, if they well consider them. For most true is that saying of Saint August. that every inordinate affection is a punishment to itself; with kinds of punishments are best known to those who are troubled with such inordinate affections: these inseparable punishments annexed to every vice, come not by chance, but by the ordinance of God, even to this end, that they who will not embrace virtue, for the love of virtues, and the comforts that proceed of them, might be by the torments that accompany vices, driven from their vices, to the love of virtue. Thus if you well way the estate of the godly & ungodly in this world, you shall find, that far happier are the godly even in this life, than the ungodly. For albeit it is most true, that the wicked have bestowed on them, more wealth, health of body, honours, and worldly commodities, then are bestowed on the godly, yet Satan who ruleth in them, and their own inordinate affections, turn these blessings of God to their greater vexation. Contrariwise, albeit the godly have many tribulations laid on them, yet suffer they less vexation in these, then do the wicked in their greatest prosperities. Nay further, the godly rejoice in tribulation, knowing the such chastisements are tokens of God's favours, who not only foreseeth all things, but also disposeth of all things, with whose goodness it cannot stand, that any thing should happen unto those that seriously obey him, which make not for their good. This undoubted persuasion of the faithful, causeth them with joy to endure any tribulation, which it pleaseth God to lay on them, and to be contented with any estate wherein God hath appointed them to live in, knowing that that cannot be bettered, which he hath appointed to be done: and therefore they mumur not at any thing that betid them, nor seek unlawful means to alter their estate, though it be very base & mean. As much therefore as contentment of mind, is better than discontentment of mind, so much better is the estate of the godly in this life, than the estate of the ungodly. ungodly men I confess, abound in wealth, honours, and prosperity; but none of these do make men better, or virtuous: the faithful for the most part want these temporal blessings, but God enricheth them with better blessings, be maketh them excel in virtue, which maketh the possessors thereof good, and of greater estimation and value, than all the earthly treasures in the world. Wherefore you see how far you are deceived, in saying that the estate of the godly in this life, is so miserable by reason of so manifold afflictions, which happen unto them, that it were better not to be at all, then to be so miserable: God never layeth greater tribulation on any of his elect, than they are able to bear: impossible therefore it is, that there should be any man so miserable, as that it were better he had never been borne.  Trau. 
Nay, that is not true, which I can manifestly prove even by the authority of Christ himself, whose words you aren bound to defend. Doth not he say of judas, that better it were he had never been borne? here you have overjoyed yourself.  Stud. 
True, he saith so of judas, but in saying so, he neither contradicteth my position, nor proveth your opinion: he speaketh not there of the misery of affliction; for judas then was in no kind of affliction (of which kind of misery you affirm that it were better not to be, then endure, which I deny) but he speaketh of the miserable estate of an obstinate and impenitent sinner. You must therefore consider, that there is a double kind of misery; Miseria culpae, & miseria afflictionis. I grant that the miserable estate of an impenitent sinner is so bad, that it were better not be, then to be such a one. This maketh nothing against my position, but to suffer the misery of affliction, be it never so great, is better than not to be at all. For you know that it is a position amongst all the learned, that Ens & bonum cowertuntur. Whatsoever is, or hath a being hath some degree of goodness; but that which hath no being, can have no part of goodness: and therefore it is better to be miserable in afflictions in this world, than not to be at all.  Trau. 
But this reason also proveth, that it is better to be in the miserable estate of the wicked, than not to be at all. For the wicked have a being, yea Satan himself. Therefore it is better to be wicked, yea a Devil, than not to be at all.  Stud. 
True it is their simple being is better to be, them not to be at all, in respect of the whole; but not in respect of themselves. For their being doth more set forth the glory of God, and further the good of the elect, than if they were not. How could the justice of God be known, if there were no wicked men, or ill spirits on whom his justice might be executed? How could the love and goodness of God be sufficiently known in protecting his elect from Satan and wicked men, 
Vide Aug. lib. 3. de. li. arbitr.  if there were no such, which made opposition against his elect and chosen? therefore there is good use of them unto the whole. But in respect of themselves, it were better (through their own default) that they had never been: and therefore Christ our Saviour saith not simply of judas, that it were better he had never been borne; but it were better for Him, that he had never been borne. For if it had not been good either in respect of himself, or of the whole, that he should be borne, he should never have been; for God createth nothing but to some good purpose. But our Saviour saith of judas, that it had been better for Him, that he had never been borne, as it may be said of all the wicked, in respect of themselves, it had been better they had never been borne, by reason of the everlasting torments which by their just desert, they are to endure. But necessary it was, that there should be a judas, and wicked men. For, who but a wicked judas would ever attempt the betraying the Son of God, into the hands of his enemies? who, but wicked men would higher for money false witnesses to accuse our Saviour Christ & of malice and envy put the innocent to death? These are necessary executioners of the will of God, though they do these things not to fulfil the will of GOD, but moved thereunto, by their own ill affections, and draw on themselves such miseries, that it were better for them, that they had never been borne.  Trau. 
Well, say that these words are to be understood of sin, and not of the misery of the afflictions which ordinarily come unto those whom you call the elect of God. I am sure you will not deny, but that Paul was one of these elect: and yet he saith of himself, and generally of all those that profess Christ, that in respect of the miseries of afflictions which happen to them in this world, they be of all men most miserable: which directly proveth my assertion, & clean overthroweth all that you have spoken.  Stud. 
Nay, you wrist the words of Paul to your purpose, contrary to their sense, concluding, that without exception, which he affirmeth with exception: saying, 
1. Cor. 15.19.  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we were of all men most miserable: which is a most true speech; out of with you would conclude, that which is most false. For as S. Paul saith, if our hopes in Christ were bounded in the limits of this present life, surely none so miserable as a true Christian, on whom for the most part, greatest afflictions fall. But this hope in Christ altereth the misery of afflictions which falleth on them, as a pleasant sauce altereth the taste of harsh meats, & causeth that which in his own nature is very unsavoury, to seem very pleasant and sweet. Take away this pleasant sauce, and harsh and unpleasant meats, will be offensive to our taste: and take away hope in Christ from a true Christian, and he will be of all creatures most miserable: this hope maketh sour afflictions seem pleasant. For he that is a true Christian, knoweth the all afflictions come by the appointment of God; he is persuaded of the goodness of God, who layeth no affliction on any of his elect, but for their good, either to exercise their patience and other virtues, to repress their lascivious natures, which otherwise in prosperity would grow vicious: or to stir up in them their hearty and zealous prayers, who otherwise would carelessly and seldom think on him, or seriously consider & remember that he is the governor of all things. Or if in particular they cannot conjecture the cause why God afflicteth them: yet they undoubtedly know, that God will turn them to their good; and therefore they willingly & joyfully embrace them. They know that their corrupt nature need such medicines to keep them in the true obedience of Gods will: therefore are such afflictions welcome unto them. They know that God receiveth no son, 
Heb. 12.6.  but whom he correcteth: and that they are bastard sons whom he correcteth not. Wherefore with joy they endure them as special notes, and arguments of God's love towards them. Thus you see that far happier is the estate of the godly even in this life, than the estate of the ungodly. For the godly enjoy sincere gladness of heart, even in the midst of tribulation: but the wicked in their greatest jollity have fears & mistrustfulness which mar their mirth: they have (as job saith) a continual fear sounding in their ears, 
2. Corin. 5.12.  they rejoice in the face, but not in the heart: it is never sincere. The reason hereof is, because God as a loving & careful father over his children, hath appointed unto every man in particular, a Tutor or Schoolmaster continually to watch over him, (I mean, hath placed a conscience in every man) who not only showeth him, and continually adviseth him to embrace that which is good, but also when he hath done well, doth glad him with present delight, in that he hath done well; and also filleth him full of good hopes to be rewarded for his well doing: so that there is no man, but feeleth this in himself when he hath well done a rejoicing that he hath done well, and that his good hopes are increased, as I said before. But contrariwise, this conscience dissuadeth us from doing evil, and if we disobey him, he layeth before us the judgement of God: No man can deny his doom, but is constrained to confess, that he which evil doth, deserveth punishment, himself being judge: Hence springeth fears, mistrustfulness, and a continual expectation of punishments due unto his offences. Wherefore most unhappy is the estate of the wicked, who in this life never enjoy any sincere joy, but such as is mixed with fear, and in the life to come, are to endure unspeakable and endless torments. But most happy is the estate of the godly, who in this world, even in the midst of their tribulation, enjoy great and sincere joy, knowing God continually to watch over them for their good, expecting always perfect and everlasting joys in the life to come.  Trau. 
True, in the life to come they must look for it, for in this life, they have but cold comforts: but this to come, is a mere fancy. For if you will believe Scripture or reason, the soul hath an end of being when the body dieth, and dieth with the body, which being so, what need any man fear future punishments? or why should any expect any joys after this life, since after this life, we shall have no life or being?  Stud. 
Whereas you say that the godly have but cold comfort in this life, you so say, because you never had any taste of the comforts of the children of God; and therefore you cannot judge of them. Whereas you say, that the life to come is a mere fancy, because as you say, the soul dieth with the body, you speak against both Scripture and reason, how soever you pretend the contrary.  Trau. 
Nay, but I will prove it plainly out of the Scripture, and by manifest reason too.  Stu. 
I pray let us hear your reasons.  Tra. 
First, I prove it by plain testimony of the Scripture, and first out of Ezechiel. 
Cap. 18.20  The soul that sinneth, the same shall die. Again, 
Ec●. 10.19  Solomon saith, that The condition of the children of men, and the condition of beasts are even one, as the one dieth, so the other dieth: for all have one breath, and there is no excellency of man above the beasts. Now if they both die alike, how can it be, that the soul of man should live when man dieth? I am sure you will not say, that beasts have souls, which live, or have any kind of being after they die. Now if you reply, that albeit beasts have not, yet the souls of men have a being after they die: then is not that true, which Solomon affirmeth. That there is no excellency of man above the beast, and that they both have one breath alike; which, being so, why should I either fear torments after this life for living ill, or expect any rewards for that I have lived well? Now, besides these evident testimonies of the Scripture, I can also prove this point by manifest reason, and grounds of Philosophy, as first.  Stud. 
Nay, pray let me first answer your testimonies out of the Scripture; then propose you human reasons.  Trau. 
Be it so.  Stud. 
Concerning your first authority out of Ezechiell. The soul that shineth shall die, by dying you understand a seizing or leaving off, of having any further being; as when a beast dieth, his life ceaseth to have any further being, in which understanding you much mistake the meaning of the words: for by dying, there is nothing else meant but that that soul which sinneth shall be rejected out of the favour of God, unto everlasting torments, which is therefore termed a death, because the love of God, is the true life of the soul, which love & favour being separated, and taken away from the soul, the soul is truly said to die.  Tra. 
But this answer cannot stand, if the words of Solomon be true. For he saith plainly, that there is no excellency of man above beasts, & that their breath is all one, & that they die alike; but if man hath a soul which liveth everlastingly, capable of eternal blessedness, than there is an excellency in man far above beasts, than they die not alike. Where, if you will not deny flat scripture, and deny the opinion of him who was the wisest man that ever was, or ever shallbe; You must acknowledge, that a man dieth like a beast, and have both one end, one no better than another.  Stud. 
Sir, you must consider that comparisons hold not in all things, and therefore you must not extend & stretch them farther than wherein they are compared. Solomon in those words speaketh of the condition of men and beasts, according to the outward show, which by our eyes and senses we can discern, and no farther he extendeth his comparison: which words, so far are most true. For in respect of their bodies, their condition is both alike, they both are made of the earth, they both continue their natural life, by the benefit of the air, their breath is in their nostrils, & as their bodies are made of the earth, so they return to earth again when they die: all their vegetative & sensitive faculties, do then end when they die. In these things the conditions of man & beast are all alike: but above all these things, God hath endued man with an intellectual spirit, a spiritual soul, which as it was not made of the earth so it returneth not to the earth when man dieth, as his body doth, which was made of the earth, but being a spiritual substance created of God, of no material substance, is no way subject to mortality, but alway hath his being in a more perfect manner after it is separated from the body. Solomon doth not compare beasts with man in this respect: For this soul of man is not subject to the view of the eyes of men. The soul is not a corporal substance, but a spiritual substance; and therefore cannot be seen with our bodily eyes: to see, & to be seen, is only proper to corporal bodies, composed of elements, the soul being not of this kind, it cometh not within the compass of this comparison, which Solomon maketh between the condition of men and beasts, sith his comparison is only in matters visible; and herein I confess they nothing differ.  Trau. 
Well sir, I cannot hinder you from gathering a meaning of salomon's words, contrary to their sense. Solomon was wise enough to express his own meaning. He saith plainly, that there is no excellency in man above beasts; you say the contrary. Here you stand not to Scripture, and yet you would have me believe Scripture. I for my part have great reason to set by the opinion of Solomon, because he was the wisest man that ever was, or ever shall be; & in matters of difficulty, we ought to give credit to wise men.  Stud. 
It is well that now you urge the authority of the Scripture, if in show it seem any way to favour your error; & now you have reason to believe Solomon, because he was the wisest man that ever was: but if Scripture, or wise men be against you, you will stand to neither.  Trau. 
Nay, say not so; though I yield not to the authority of Scripture, yet I ascribe much unto the opinion of wise men.  Stud. 
This I doubt you will deny again.  Trau. 
Never.  Stud. 
Then stand to your words. Now I will show you evidently by the very words of Solomon, that he compareth man and beast, but only in things visible, and no further: so that it is not my bare conjecture what he meaneth, but his own words do sufficiently manifest this to be his meaning: here take the Bible, read the words going next before those you have alleged, or hear them read. Solomon speaking in the verse before of the condition of men, saith, To see to, they are as beasts: for the condition of the children of men, and the condition of beasts are even one. Now the words going before the testimony you allege, do manifest wherein he compareth them. 
Vers. 18.  Namely, To see to, and he giveth instance in things visible, as dying, and breathing: and thus far, and herein they are both alike. Now, to understand a doubtful text, the best way saith Augustine is to consider that which goeth before, & that which followeth, which if you had observed, you would never have alleged these words of Solomon for your error. Now, to put the matter out of all doubt, that Solomon acknowledgeth the immortality of the soul, hear his words, speaking of the death of man, & what followeth, he saith, the dust returneth to the earth whence it came, 
Eccles. Cap. 12.7.  & the spirit returneth to God that gave it. Here he speaketh distinctly of the body and soul of man: of the body, as he affrmed in the words which you alleged, that it dieth and returneth to the earth, as do the carcases of beasts: but the soul doth not so, it goeth to God, who gave it. Now, Solomon was the wisest man that ever was, as you acknowledge, and in matters of difficulty, we ought to give credence to the wisest men, and this you will stand to, acknowledge now your error.  Trau. 
Solomon only affirmeth this, he giveth no reason for it. Now, if wise men vary in opinion, and some of them give reason for their opinion, and some only affirm, showing no reason; I will believe those who show reason, more than the bare assertion of any. You know Aristotle was an admirable wise man, whose learning all men justly admire and reverence, who also concerning this point, hath written three books, and by many reasons discourseth of this matter, and hath laboured much in searching of the truth herein, yet he affirneth the contrary: therefore you must pardon me if I descent from Solomon, who hath not laboured so far in this matter as Aristotle hath.  Stud. 
It is well, as long as Solomon seemed to deny the immortality of the soul, he was the wisest man that ever was, or shall be, and then you had great reason to believe him: but now it is proved, that he taught the contrary; now you have found a wiser than he. Solomon now is not to be believed, because he only affirmeth the immortality of the soul, but by reason proveth it not; as though wise men would affirm any thing without any ground of reason. In that he only affirmeth it, you imagine, that he had reason so to do, else you deny him to be a wise man. But I doubt not, but that Aristotle will be of as small authority with you, ere we have done. I pray therefore let us hear your reasons out of Aristotle.  Tra. 
It is a position in Aristotle, that whatsoever hath a beginning, hath an end; but the soul hath a beginning, therefore it hath an end. A second reason is this, every natural form is corruptible with that whereof it is the form, as Aristotle saith, Phisicorum. 4. text. 17. but the soul, or life of man, is the natural form of man. As Aristole affirmeth, lib. 3. de anima, text. 17. Therefore when man dieth, his soul also dieth with him. Both the mayor, and the minor are the very words of Aristotle, and I conclude directly ex praemisis. A third most evident reason I take out of the eight book of Aristotle, denatura animalium. cap. 1. where he saith, that the life or the soul of a man in his childhood differeth nothing from the life of beasts but the life of beasts are not immortal, therefore the soul of man is not immortal. A fourth reason I gather out of Aristotle, 
Lib. 1. Divinorum. text. 35. Lib. 2. D● anima. text. 7.  that no eternal thing can be part of a mortal thing, but the soul of a man is a part of man, as Aristotle affirmeth, therefore the soul of man cannot be immortal.  Stu. 
Many excellent Philosophers have searched into the nature of the soul of man, beside Aristotle, and written of it, who give excellent reasons to show the immortality of it, as Hermes Tresmagistus. Plato. Plotinus. Zenophon. Plutarch. Seneca. and many Poets and heathen men. Why should you reject the reasons and opinions of all these notable men, and stick only to Aristotle?  Tra. 
Because I like his reasons best.  Stud. 
It is a strange thing that you should refuse the authority of the scripture, and the opinion of all other excellent, wise, & learned Philosophers, and stick only to one. But if Aristotle fail you in this point, will you then confess, that to deny the immortality of the soul is absurd, against the authority of the scripture, and opinion of all the learned in all ages?  Trau. 
Yes, I may well enough, for I know Aristotle is very clear in this point.  Stu. 
Well then, now I come to answer your reasons out of Aristotle, and first before I answer in particular to any of your reasons, I must tell you this in general, that Aristotle doth not in his three books de anima, speak of the substance and essence of the soul of man, but of his faculties, powers, & operations, in which respect the soul is said to be the natural form of man, and actus corporis: as for the substance and essence of the soul, because it is a spiritual substance, and not a natural faculty of the body, therefore it pertaineth not to natural philosophy to handle it. This I speak not upon conjecture, but Aristotle himself in plain terms telleth you this, in his second book de anima, the second chapter, the last words of the chapter. Now then, if you will believe Aristotle himself expounding himself, you must understand whatsoever he saith in his three books de anima, to be spoken of the vegetable, and sensible life of men and beasts, and not of the intellectual, and reasonable soul of man; and he giveth a reason why in those books he speaketh not of it, because saith he, the intellectual & reasonable soul or life of man, is a certain divine substance subsisting of itself, separable from the body, and in this respect, not actus corporis, not the natural form of the body: and the better to illustrate his meaning, he compareth the soul of a man in the body, to a Mariner in a ship. As a Mariner is of a different nature from the ship, subsisting of himself: so is the soul of man in the body, of a different nature from the body, of a far more excellent nature subsisting of itself. As the Mariner giveth motion unto the ship, and directeth it this way, and that way, whither so ever it pleaseth him to sail: so the soul of man, guideth the body whither it pleaseth him to go. As the Mariner hath a vigilant care and love to his ship, to see to it, that it take no harm, & repaireth the decays of it: so the soul careth for the good of the body, causeth it to decline from those things which are hurtful for the body, & by his sensible and vegetable faculties, daily repaireth the decaying body. As the Mariner doth not decay with his ship, but is safe and sound, though his ship leak, or by reason of age rot away: so neither is the soul of man any whit the worse, though his body decay & turn to corruption. This in general might suffice to answer all which might be brought out of Arilio les books de anima: but because you shall have no cavil, I will in particular answer every one of your arguments. This is your first argument. Whatsoever hath a beginning, hath an end. But the soul of man hath a beginning, therefore it hath an end. I grant your whole syllogism to be generally true without exception, in things whereof Aristotle maketh this general Maxim; Namely in things natural, composed of the four elements, but the reasonable and intellectual soul of man, is not a natural thing composed of the four elements, as Aristotle himself confesseth, therefore this position of Aristotle, Whatsoever hath a beginning hath an end, maketh nothing against the immortality of the soul, albeit it hath a beginning. Your second reason is this. Every natural form is corruptible with that whereof it is a form. But the soul of man is the natural form of man, therefore when man dieth, the soul dieth also. To this I answer, that the reasonable soul of man may be considered 2. ways, either according to his essence, or according to his operations, powers, and faculties: his operations also are of 2. kinds, whereof some are such, as the soul exerciseth without any instrument of the body, as his intellectual powers, as for example; the soul of man judgeth of truth and falsehood, discourseth of the natural causes of things, and by the effects of things searcheth into the causes of things: it discourseth of celestial matters and things invisible: these and the like operations the soul useth without any aid or help of the body, and these remain still with the soul, though the body perish: other faculties the soul exerciseth in the body, and by the aid of the body. In the body, when it giveth life unto the body by his sensible and vegetable faculties; and in respect of these his faculties and operations, the soul is truly said to be the natural form of man, and these sensible and vegetable operations of the soul, die with the body. True therefore is your Mayor Proposition, that every natural form dieth with the whereof it is the form; but this is nothing against the immortality of the soul, because the soul is not properly the natural form of man in respect of his substance, but only in respect of some of his faculties, because by his faculties it giveth life to man. But if you respect his essence, it is a spiritual substance separable from the body, without impeachment to his being; and in this respect it is not the natural form of man, 
Arist. lib. 2. de anima. c. 1. vlt. verb. capitis.  as Aristotle himself doth confess: so that Aristotle being your judge, your argument is of no force. Your third reason is this, The soul, or life of man in his childhood, differeth nothing from the life of beasts; but the lives of beasts are not immortal, Ergo. I confess, both the Mayor, and Minor, to be most true in that sense as Aristotle speaketh them, but not in the sense whereunto you wrist them. Aristotle speaketh in that place not of the essence of the soul, 
Li. 8. de nat. anim. ca 1.  whether it be corruptible, or immortal, but only of the operation of man's soul in his childhood; which as he saith, differeth then nothing from beasts, which is most true. Nay, I say further, in this respect beasts are to be preferred before children. Children know not what is good or evil for them, but beasts naturally know what is good for them, & what is ill for them, and they choose the one, and refuse the other. But this assertion maketh nothing against the immortality of the soul. Neither had Aristotle any intent to speak of it in that place, 
Lib. 1. divinarum.  as the circumstance of it will manifest unto you, if you look into it. Your fourth reason is this, No eternal thing can be a part of a mortal, 
Lib. 2. de anima. ca 1.  or a corruptible thing, but the soul of man is a part of man: therefore it cannot be immortal. Both Mayor and Minor are Aristotle's I confess, I distinguish therefore of the soul; if you respect his own nature, as a thing subsisting by himself, it is not a part of man's body; but if you consider his operation in giving life to the body, it is a part of man's body, & is, as Aristotle saith, actus corporis, and the form of the body. Now, that the soul according to his essence, is not a part of the body of man, but only in respect of his faculties and operations, Aristotle himself plainly confesseth in many places, as in his first book de anima, he saith, that the intellectual life, or soul of man, is contained in no part of man's body, and that he is separable from the body without any diminution, or hurt to his essence. This affirmeth he also in his second book de anima, in divers places. And in his third book de anima, he saith, that the intellectual part of the soul of man, proceedeth not from the matter of the body, as all natural forms do: and therefore by consequent it is eternal, and not subject to corruption. Aristotle therefore himself being judge, the intellectual soul is not a part of the body, but only in some respect; as by his operation it giveth life unto man, with he not only affirmeth; but also explaineth his meaning by fit examples, by the example of a Mariner, which giveth motion to the Ship, and directeth it, but is no part of the Ship: and by the example of a seal, which causeth a certain form in the wax, but is no part of the wax; You may bruise the wax together, and mar the form imprinted by the seal, without any hurt at all to the seal: so may the body of man turn to corruption, whereunto the soul giveth a natural form by his operation, yet without the hurt of the essence of the soul, because it is a divine substance subsisting by itself, separable from the body, by the confession of Aristotle himself. Thus you see, your reason is of no force, by the opinion of Aristotle on whom only you rely. Now, because I will not be beholding to you for your four reasons out of Aristotle against the immortality of the soul, I will requite you with four more out of Aristotle, to prove the immortality of the soul; and if need were, I could double them, since in this point you rely so much on him. My first reason out of Aristotle is this; God and nature (saith he) maketh nothing in vain, but the soul of every man, naturally desireth to be immortal, to live continually in everlasting happiness; therefore is it immortal: else this natural desire of the soul, of being everlastingly in happiness, is made in vain, which Aristotle denieth. Other living creatures appetites, run on those things which presently they love and like; their imaginations run not on pleasure to come, they conceive not of any felicity after this life, much less do they desire it, for they know it not. God hath given to every creature such several appetites and desires, as are agreeable to their several natures: the Horse desireth not to fly, as God hath not given him means to fly: the fish desireth not to walk on the land, or live on the land, as God hath not given him means to walk, neither is able to live out of the water; neither beasts, fowls, or fishes, desire to abound in riches, gold, or silver, sith they have no use of it. Generally, God endueth no creature with any natural desire of the, whereof he is not capable. Now then, sith God hath endued the soul of every man with a natural desire of continuing immortally in everlasting happiness, therefore he is capable of it, according to the opinion of Aristotle; who holdeth this as a sure ground, that God and nature hath made nothing in vain. My second ground out of Aristotle for the immortality of the soul is this, Whatsoever substance is not composed of the four elements, is not corruptible, (for as he saith, the cause of corruption proceedeth from the contrariety of the elements whereof they are made) but the soul is not composed of the four elements: therefore the soul is not corruptible, but immortal. Both the Mayor and Minor are Aristotle's, therefore according to Aristotle, the soul is immortal. My third reason which I take out of Aristotle, is this, The intellectual and reasonable soul of man, is a divine substance, which hath his being separable from the body, whose essence is not contained in any part of the body, & may be separated from the body as a thing incorruptible, saith Aristotle: whence I make this syllogism, whatsoever is a divine substance separable from the body, and incorruptible. Howsoever the body of man perisheth is immortal, but Aristotle saith, that the soul is a divine substance contained in no part of the body, separable from the body, as an incorruptible thing from a corruptible. Therefore according to Aristotle, the soul is immortal. My fourth reason which I take out of Aristotle is this: That substance whose operations depend not of the body, his essence dependeth not of the body, but the operations of the soul of man dependeth not of the body, but of the spiritual and divine substance, whose essence is separable from the body; therefore it perisheth not with the body. Both the Maior & Minor are Aristotle's, which Aristotle proveth by the example of the eyes of old men. If (saith he) an old man had the eye of a child, he would see as clearly as a child, hereby signifying, that the soul of man doth not impair with the body, as in divers diseases it is manifest. When as the body is most weak, the faculties of the mind are most strong; then the mind and soul of man most sharply understandeth any thing and is most judicious, than his desires are most vehement, and his love to goodness, & mislike of sin is most ardent: then that natural inclination, and desire of being everlastingly in felicity, do most show itself. Which natural affection and appetite of the soul were in vain, if the soul of man were not capable of immortality, which is a thing flatly denied by Aristotle, that God should give any natural desire to any thing in vain. Besides these and many more arguments with I could bring out of Aristotle, there are divers other reasons which might be brought for the proof of this point, as that it cannot stand with the justice of God, that the soul of man should perish with his body, because as there are many who have seriously worshipped him and have passed their lives agreeable to his will, yet worse hath betide them, than hath happened unto those that have dishonoured him: so contrariwise, many in this life have lived most lewdly, yet have spent all their days in great prosperity, enriched with great wealth, & dignified with great honours. Wherefore necessarily it followeth, that there must be a life to come, wherein the one is to be punished, and the other rewarded. It cannot stand with the mercy of God, that the soul should perish with the body, since he made man the excellentest creature in the world whom he loveth above all creatures, for whose sake he made all the world, and endued him with more special graces then all creatures, even in a manner equal to Angels: and when he fell from the excellency wherein he created him, spared not his only begotten Son to redeem him from misery: and yet for all this, if you consider man in this life only, whether you respect the manifold diseases incident to his body, or the infinite vexation of his mind, he is of all creatures in the world (Devils excepted) the most miserable. Now, sith it so fareth with him in this life, it cannot stand with the mercy and goodness of God, but to appoint a better place, and better life, where his goodness and mercy to man, may be showed. It cannot stand with the honour & glory of God, that that creature should ever perish, the which he hath made to behold and consider his everlasting and marvelous works, & to participate of his everlasting goodness, as to this purpose he hath made men and Angels. And therefore of all the creatures under heaven, hath made the countenance of man to look upwards, his eyes rolling fit to turn every way; his neck flexible to look round about, that with facility & ease, he might contemplate & behold all the works of God, both above him, about him, and under him. He hath endued him with reason, to consider & discourse on the excellency of them; and only unto man a tongue, to express the power, wisdom, and goodness of God, and to glorify him for the goodness which he imparteth to his creatures. Now, if the reasonable soul of man, made to glorify God should perish, then the chiefest instrument of God's glory should perish; but it cannot stand with the glory of God, that the chiefest instrument of his glory should perish. Therefore it is against all reason, that the soul of man should perish with the body. It cannot stand with natural reason, that the soul of man should perish with the body, because the soul of man hath not his beginning from the substance of the body, as the lives of beasts have their beginning out of the matter & substance of their bodies; & therefore it dieth with their bodies, because the beginning thereof came from a corruptible cause. Their bodies are corruptible, because they are composed of contrary qualities, as your friend Aristotle confesseth: But it is not so in the soul of man. The soul of man is not made out of the matter of his body, as Aristotle also confesseth, but is a divine substance, which came from God. And here by the way, suffer me to show you, that your Aristotle agreeth in this point with the Scripture: When as God made the beasts, souls, and creeping things, he said, Let the earth bring forth every living thing according to his kind: 
Genes. 1.24.25.  and in the words following, it is said, G●d made the beasts of the earth. But when God cometh to make man, he speaketh after another manner: saying, Let us make man, where the holy Ghost speaking to the weakness of our capacity: signifieth, that man is of that excellency, that that God, even the Trinity, took consultation in making man. Let us make man. When he made other creatures, he saith only, let this or that be, and it was done: but when he cometh to make man, he showeth to what dignity he ordaineth him, and whereunto he maketh him, even like unto himself. The soul of man (which is properly man, according to that speech in the Scripture: 
Gen. 2.7. 1. Cor. 15.45.  Man was made a living soul) is the very image of God. As God is infinite, and knoweth all things; so is the soul of man made infinite, to receive all knowledge. He never knoweth so much, but is capable to know more. Secondly, as the will of God is infinite; so is the will of man made infinite, not tied to will this or that, but whatsoever it pleaseth, it cannot be constrained to will any thing. Thirdly, as God is infinitely good; so is the soul of man capable of infinite goodness: nay it never ceaseth, until it attaineth it. Make man a King, he is not satisfied, but his desire enlargeth itself farther. Make him a Monarch, he is not contented, he will desire more. Make him Lord of all the world, yet is he not contented: The reason hereof is, because these things may be bettered. So that as the natures of the elements are, they never cease until they come to the place of their proper element. The fire never ceaseth tending upward, until it be above the element of the air; nor the air, until it be above the water; nor the water ever ceaseth to fall downward, until it come to the bottom of the sea; nor any part of the earth, until it come unto the centre of the earth, if it were not hindered. So the soul of man never ceaseth until it come unto God himself, from whom it came. No finite goodness can satisfy it, but only that wherein there is no defect, which only is God himself. Fourthly, as God is eternal, so the natural desire of the soul is, to be eternal in happiness, and to live everlastingly. Fiftly, as God ruleth all the world, and every creature therein, and giveth life unto them and motion: so the soul of man giveth life unto all the body of man, and motions unto every member thereof, and ruleth the whole body according to his will: nay further, man (according to that authority which God hath given him) hath authority over all the beasts of the field, fowls of the air, fishes of the sea, and all earthly creatures to rule & use them at his pleasure, as a petty God on earth. Sixtly, as God ruleth all the world, yet can he not be seen, nor comprehended what he is: so the soul ruleth the whole body; yet can it not be seen, nor rightly by human reason be comprehended what it is. seven, as God is in the world, but is not contained in any part of the world; so the soul of man is in the body of man: but is not contained in any part of the body, as your Aristotle saith, but by his reasonable and spiritual faculties discourseth of things far distant from the body, he is with a trise discoursing of matters in foreign countries, and in the twinkling of an eye at home again. He is considering on things on earth, and in a moment he mounteth up to heaven; he is not wearied, or pained with the greatness of the journey. There he discourseth on spiritual invisible and divine matters, of the majesty of God, of his infinite wisdom, power, mercy, and justice: of the felicity and eternal happiness of the Angels: all these & the like operations, the soul useth without any aid of the body. Now in all things created, there are two things to be considered the essence of the things and their operations. There can be no operation of any thing whereof there is no essence: no more than there can be any accident without a subject. But you see even by the opinion of Aristotle, that the soul h●th peculiar operations unto himself, no way depending on the aid of the body. Therefore the soul is a several substance, differing from the substance of the body, w●ose operations are divine, & therefore their subject the soul, must needs be divine. But how now man? what muse you on so steadfastly? how do you now like Aristotle?  Trau. 
I cannot tell what to say to this point; it is hard for Aristotle or any human reason well to determine what the soul is, it is so strange a thing.  Stud. 
You say right, in divine & spiritual matters therefore, you might do well to believe divine testimonies. If you would but read the Scripture & believe it, your mind would be easily settled in this point, and all others, necessary for man to know, in it there can be no error.  Trau. 
The Scripture? no error in it? nay, the Scripture was it, that first drove me to these opinions. For I find in it so many falsehoods and untruths, so many absurdities, so many unreasonable things, that he is a senseless man that perceiveth it not, and a fool that believeth it.  Stud. 
It is your manner, to be confident in your opinion, be it never so absurd. But show either any untruth or absurdity, or any unreasonable thing contained in the Scripture, & I will be of your opinion, that no credit is to be given to the Scripture.  Trau. 
Will you stand to your words?  Stud. 
Yes truly.  Trau. 
Well, than I will show you divers plain and evident untruths. God said to Adam, when he placed him in Paradise, in that day that thou eatest of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt die the death, and in the next chapter following, Moses saith, that he did eat of the forbidden fruit, and died not, and saith further in the 5. chapter, 
Vers. 5.  that Adam lived nine hundred and thirty years. If he died not, that day wherein he did eat of the forbidden fruit. But lived many years afterward, and begat children. Then that is not true, that he should die the same day, that he should eat of the forbidden fruit. If he died that day that he did eat of the forbidden fruit: Then the other cannot be true, that he lived so long, and begat children, then tell me which of these two are false. The second untruth I take out of the 4. chap. of Genesis. When Cain had slain his brother Abel. God saith unto him for his punishment, a vagabond and a runagate shalt thou be in the earth. And yet in the same chapter it is said, that Kain dwelled in the East side of Eden, and builded a City. If Cain were ahoushoulder, and builded a City. How was he a vagabond and a runagate, both these cannot be true: Tell me which of them is false? A third untruth I gather out of the whole scripture which is this, large promises of health, wealth, and prosperity, unto those that keep the law of God. And contrariwise, many curses against the wicked: Yet if the scripture be true, they which in the Scripture are renowned for piety and holiness were most afflicted, and the wicked most abounded in prosperity. The like we see in our days true for the most part. Now tell me whether these promises have been truly performed or no. A fourth untruth I take out of the book of judges, 
jud. 10.13.  where God saith to the Israelites, that he had many times deliu●red them out of the hands of their enemies, but when they were once freed, than they would forsake him again and fall to Idolatry: Therefore he gave them this flat answer, when they cried unto him in their trouble, that he would help them no more. Yet for all this, he did help them afterwards. How can this agree? God would help them no more, and that God did help them again, both cannot be true. Now for absurdities in the scripture, this is one especial.  Stud. 
Nay pray, before you proceed further, let me answer these which you call falsehoods and untruths.  Trau. 
Yea, pray answer them if you can.  Stud. 
josephus recordeth that Sedechias King of Israel (who had no intent or purpose to obey the will of the Lord) 
Lib. 10. cap. 10. et 11. anti.  sought rather how is cavil with the words of the Prophets, which were sent unto him, then either to know or observe the will of the Lord, so that when as jeremias the Prophet prophesied that he should be carried away captive to Babylon except he repent, and obeyed the will of the Lord: And Ezechiell also prophesied that he should be made captive unto the King of Babylon, and led away into captivity, but he should never see Babylon. Sedechias comparing the words of these two Prophets together, it seemed to him, that there was a contradiction in their prophecies, that one prophesying that he should be carried away captive to Babylon: the other prophesying that he never should see Babylon. Both these could not be true (as he thought) and if either of them were false, both of them might be false, and therefore he believed neither of them: but continued still in his wickedness, until he indeed, he was carried away captive unto Babylon, according to the prophesy of jeremy, but he never saw Babylon, according to the prophesy of Ezechiell. 
jeremy. 39.7.  For the King of Babylon caused his eyes to be pulled out of his head before he was brought unto Babylon. Such is the judgement of God against the wicked, 
2. Pet. 2.19.  that they (who have no purpose to obey the will of God,) shall not understand the words of God, yea the word of God which is to others a light in darkness, to guide them the right way, is hidden unto them, nay it is a stumbling block unto them, 
joh. 7.15.  if aeny man will do his will (saith our Saviour) he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God or no, them only God teache●h the right way, who fear him, and intent to keep and observe his commandments. The true understanding of the word of God, is a secret, reserved as a peculiar thing only for such, 
Psal. 25.12.14.  as in sincerity fear the Lord, as the Prophet David saith. And therefore when as our Saviour spoke in the presents of the malicious Scribes & pharisees, he spoke in parables, (for the pearls of God pertain not unto Dogs and Swine) but he causeth his disciples to understand them in private. Saying, 
Math. 7.6. cap. 15.26.  unto you it is given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them (that is to the wicked and malicious) it is not given. I do not marvel therefore to see you, as a corrupt stomach which turneth even the best meats into corruption, and matter of diseases, with sound stomachs you turn into good nutriment: so turn that which is most true in itself, unto falsehood and absurdities; being carried away with a prejudicial conceit, more willing to cavil with, then to understand the word of God. Now that these are not untruths which you have alleged, I will by the grace of God make most manifest. The first, with seemeth unto you to be untrue, is, in that God said unto Adam, that he should die the same day that he should eat of the forbidden fruit, but the Scripture testifieth, that he died not the day that he did eat of the forbidden fruit, but lived nine hundred and thirty years afterwards. In these words there is no contradiction or falsehood, as you imagine: that which, that you may the better understand, you must know, that there are three sorts of lives, and three sorts of deaths: three sorts of lives, as first, the corporal life which is the conjunction of body and soul, in which union, the soul giveth all vegetable & sensible faculties unto the body, his intellectual, and reasonable faculties, he exerciseth without the body. Secondly, the spiritual life, whereby we live unto God, when as we being made the temples of the holy Ghost, live a sanctified life unto the honour of God. A third kind of life is that spiritual life, which after this life, the Saints of God live in the presence of God in fullness of joy and happiness. Likewise, there are three sorts of deaths; a corporal death, when as the soul departeth from the body, leaving neither sense, nor motion in the body. Secondly, there is a spiritual death in this life, when as the spirit of God departeth from us, or is not resident in us, without whose presence and aid, we cannot but fall into all kind of wickedness: neither can we have any motions of godliness, wherein consisteth a spiritual life. A third kind of death, is after this life, when as a man is cast into hell body and soul, there everlastingly to endure torments unspeakable. Now true it is, Adam died not the first kind of death, which is the separation of the body and soul, the same day he did eat of the forbidden fruit, as it was not meant he should: but he died the second kind of death, which is a rejection out of God's favour, wherein the happy life of man consisteth; and that God denounced unto Adam the second kind of death, and not the first. S. Ambrose proveth out of the words of the text, God saith not to Adam, what day thou eatest of the tree of knowledge of good & evil thou shalt die. (saith S. Ambrose:) but thou shalt die the death; by saying thou shalt die the death, he importeth more, then if he had said, thou shalt die. For in saying, thou shalt die The death, he signifieth, that he should die the death of all deaths, the greatest death of all others, even rejected out of the favour of God: and that he died this kind of death the same day he tasted of the forbidden fruit. I need not stand to prove, sith the thing is manifest: so that there is no contradiction in the Scripture in this point, but the fault is in your misconstruing it: he died the same day he tasted of the forbidden fruit, the second death; and the same day also, was his body made subject to death, which before by the favour of God was immortal: and this mortality of the body, was the consequent of the second death. To live, is to enjoy those things which in themselves are good & pleasant. Arist. Eth. li. 9 c. 9 But Adam immediately after his transgression, lost those things which in themselves were good and pleasant: therefore he died immediately after his transgression: Which position of Aristotle fitly agreeth with our common speech. When we see a man heavy and dampish without any courage, we say, that he hath no life in him: and of men in misery we say, such a life is no life. He died therefore the same day, though he lived in the body many years after. If you like not Ambrose's interpretation, consider what the Scripture saith, 
2. Pet. 3.8.  that a thousand years are as one day with the Lord. But Adam died within the compass of a thousand years; therefore he died the same day, a day being taken for a thousand years with the Lord. Now say, that Adam never died either in body or soul; yet you cannot justly say, that there is any falsehood in those words of the Scripture, which you have alleged concerning the punishment of Adam: for these words. Thou shalt die the death, the same day wherein thou shalt eat the forbidden fruit: are not a prophesy what should come to pass; but a commination annexed to a precept, to deter Adam from breaking the commandment. Now you know that he, who hath authority to make a law, and appoint punishments for the breakers thereof: reserveth always a power unto himself, to mitigate those punishments which it pleased him to appoint for the breakers of his law: in mitigating whereof, he offendeth neither the law, nor equity. The primary & principal intent of good Princes, in appointing grievous punishments for offenders of their laws, is especially to defer and fear their subjects from transgressing their commandments. They intent not principally their punishment in those comminations, but especially use them as means to keep them in obedience unto their law: wishing rather their obedience then their punishments, so the punishments denounced in comminations, are not always intended to be executed unto the utmost extremity: But so far forth, as they may defer subjects from breaking the laws, which in duty they are bound to observe. But see how Satan ruleth your malicious heart and tongue, if God should in rigour without mercy have utterly destroyed Adam presently upon his offence, both body and soul. Then would your clamorous mouth have been open, to declaim against the rigour of God's judgements: but now because he useth mercy in his judgements, there is no truth in his words: because he treatneth severely, but dealeth mercifully, refrain your blasphemous tongue, lest you taste of his judgements without mercy. Concerning your second contradiction (as you imagine) that Kain was a housdweller, and built and lived in a City, and therefore that was not true which God said should happen unto him, that he should be a runagate, and a vagabond. First, the word in the original which is translated a runagate; doth as well signify an unconstant and variable minded man, or a man of a troubled & fearful mind, always mistrusting and expecting some evil to happen unto him, and that Kaine was such a one, the very building of his City doth argue. For before this sentence of God, against the heinous sin of Kaine, Kaine, nor any else ever fortified themselves with walls or Cities, which was an argument, that they never feared invasion of men or beasts. Secondly, that Kaine built a City and dwelled in it, is a weak argument, that he was no vagbo and, for although Moses presently after the sentence of God against Kaine, showeth where he built a City and dwell: yet he setteth not down when he built this City. Moses briefly setteth down that, which was done after many years, it was usual them, that men lived Eight or Nine hundred years. Now it may be that Kain was a vagabond for the space of Five Hundred years, and after builded this City, and this is not my mere conjecture, but josephus recordeth, that Kaine wandered into many countries, before he built this City. thirdly, these words, Thou shalt be a vagabond, is a judicial sentence: in which sentences, always what shall be done unto the offender is not set down, necessarily to be executed: but what his offence deserveth. As we see daily in the execution of malefactors, the extremity of the sentence of the judge is sieldome performed, but in compassion mitigated.  Trau. 
Well, but yet you will not deny, but that Kaine builded a City.  Stu. 
It cannot be denied, for the plain words of the text affirmeth it.  Trau. 
If he did, I pray tell me how many Citizens he had? what Masons and Carpenters he had? If you will believe the Scripture, there were not then in all the world above Five or Six men. Therefore, for Kaine to build a City, seemeth an absurd thing, since then, there were no people to inhabit it.  Stud. 
He that hath a desire rather to cavil with the Scripture, then to understand it, shall for his unreverend usage of it, and his infidelity, have this punishment, that he shall never understand the Scripture. I believe the Scripture, yet am I not bound to believe that there were in all the world but five or six persons when Kaine built his City: for the Scripture saith not so, neither in any probability was it so. The Scripture indeed mentioneth no more, but it followeth not thereon, that then there were no more. Moses only briefly nameth those of principal note; but that there were then many more, it is more than probable. josephus recordeth that Kayne built this City about his latter days, as it should seem by the usual time that men then lived, when he was about some seven or eight hundred years of age. Now, in seven or eight hundred years, Kaynes children and his children's children might very well grow to a very great number, sufficient to inhabit a City. Therefore if you consider the matter duly, you may know, that it cannot seem that Kayne should not build a City, for want of people to inhabit it, as you without probability gather. Now, concerning your third untruth, which you would gather out of the Scripture, in that, God promiseth all manner of blessings spiritual, and temporal, to those that keep his commandments: and contrariwise, all manner of punishments against those that break his laws: and yet the Scripture testifieth, that they which were most godly, suffered most affliction, and they which were most wicked, especially prospered and enjoyed greatest happiness here on earth, as also daily experience teacheth the same. For answer whereof, you are to consider, that the promises of temporal blessings are promised conditionally, if they keep the law; but none ever yet kept the law. Therefore, no man can in right challenge them to be performed unto them. Secondly, you are to consider, that when the Lord promised the land of Canaan, wealth, health, and worldly prosperity, the land of Canaan, nor health, wealth, and prosperity is properly and principally to be understood and meant; but figuratively under the name of these earthly blessings, spiritual blessings are principally understood. The reason why God useth the names of these earthly blessings, to express these spiritual blessings unto men, which he principally intendeth unto them, is, because that as these spiritual blessings exceed the capacity of mortal men: so there are no sufficient words sufficiently ta express the excellency of them. Therefore God useth the names of earthly blessings best known unto men, to signify unto them, those blessings, which as yet their weakness cannot conceive of. Now, that these earthly blessings promised to the observers of the law, are not principally meant, but spiritual blessings under their names, and that the Saints of God, expected spiritual blessings under the names of these blessings. It is manifest by divers places of the scripture, David was borne in the land of Canaan, and lived in the land of Canaan the land of promise, yet he acknowledged that he was a stranger therein, 
Ps. 39.14.  saying, that he was a stranger and a sojourner here, as all his forefathers were. How was he a sojourner in Canaan where he was borne, except he expected an other Canaan, which he acknowledged to be his own country? And in the 27. Psal. 13. David saith, I should have fainted, except I had believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Canaan could not be that land of the living where he hoped to see the goodness of the Lord: for as well in Canaan, as in other lands all men died, so that it could not be termed the land of the living. Likewise the Apostle to the Hebrews saith of the Saints of God, 
cap. 11.10.40.  that they looked for a celestial jerusalem▪ they received not the promises of these earthly blessings, for God provided better things for them: even the joys of the kingdom of heaven signified under these earthly blessings, and principally intended. Lastly, it is manifest by the very words which God useth in these promises, that under the name of the land of Canaan, the kingdom of heaven is meant. For in Gen. 13.15. the Lord saith, that he will give the land of Canaan unto Abraham and his seed for ever: which cannot be understood of the land of Canaan; for this world shall not endure for ever, and long since his seed lost the possession of it. Therefore it must needs be spiritually understood.  Trau. 
You say principally intended. Then also earthly blessings, and earthly punishments were also intended, though not principally; but sure these are not performed. For albeit the justest man cannot challenge any jot of these promises, because (as you say) they do not perfectly fulfil the law: yet they more deserve them, than those who nothing regard God's commandments. But experience proveth, that the justest commonly taste lest of these blessings, and the wicked are least punished.  Stud. 
True it is, that God promiseth rewards to those who keep his laws, & denounceth punishments against those who break his law. But the performance of these, are not done according to the fancy of men, but by the ordinance of God. The portion of punishment appointed for the godly, are performed in this life; but the portion of their blessings principally intended them, is performed in the life to come. Contrariwise, the portion of the joys of the wicked, is performed unsually unto them in this life; but their torments principally intended, in the life to come. Therefore it is said, that judgement beginneth at the house of God. 
1. Pet. 4.17.  And this course God hath always observed. Great were the sins of the children of Israel, when they committed fornication with the daughters of Moab: 
Numb. 25.  yet nothing in comparison of the sins of the Moabites; yet God beginneth in punishing the Israelites, and afterwards punisheth the Moabites. 
Numb. 31.  Great were the sins of the Israelites in the time of Esay the Prophet: but if their sins were compared unto the sins of the Assyrians, they were but small: Yet God beginneth in punishing with the Israelites. Nay, he useth the wicked Assyrians to punish the Israelites, 
Esay. 10.  and afterward, punisheth the Assyrians. In the time of the Prophet Ezechiell, the children of Israel provoked the Lord to pour out his wrath on them; so that he spared neither young nor old, save them who mourned in secret for the abominations that were committed amongst them. 
Ezech. 9.4.6.  In punishing the rest, he giveth this commandment, that the destroyers should begin punishing at his sanctuary: first punish his Priests, and those that were nearest unto him. This ordinance of God, is the cause why the justest men are soon punished, and this procéeeths from the especial care of God towards his elect, to put them presently in mind that they err, lest they continue in sin. 
Hose. 2.6.  He doth hedge them in with a hedge of thorns, so that they shall no sooner offer to departed from him, but they shall be pricked with one punishment or other. As for the wicked, who are incorrigible, he dealeth otherwise with them, sith they contemn his spiritual graces, and regard them not, but greedily desire all worldly pleasures, notwithstanding their wickedness, because they are his creatures, he will of his mercy, have them to enjoy some part of his blessings: these earthly blessings which they so greedily affect, he bestoweth on them, are all the portion of joys which ever they shall have, and therefore it is said, that God filleth their bellies with the hid treasures of the earth, which treasures are termed their portion. 
Ps. 17.14.  All their joys are confined wihin the bounds of this present life. 
Psal. 73.  They are lifted up on high whilst they live on earth: but suddenly they are cast down to hell: This point our Saviour Christ plainly showeth in that Parable of Dives. When Dives desired some mitigation of his torments in hell, he had this answer. Son, 
Luc. 16.25  remember that thou in thy life time receivedst thy pleasures, and likewise Lazarus his pains. Now therefore he is comforted, and thou art tormented. These things come not by chance, but by the disposition of God, so placing his blessings, as they may best beseem his goodness, and the good of his creatures, of his mere bounty he ladeth the wicked with temporal blessings, who nothing regard his spiritual blessings. Again, he bestoweth his temporal blessings on the godly, but most commonly sparingly, not because it is with him, as it is with earthly princes, the more they bestow, the less they have; it is not for want of store of blessings: But first considering the fragility of man's nature, whom abundance of earthly blessings will corrupt, as experience of all time do make proof. Therefore to keep them in his obedience, he useth this sparingness of his temporal blessings. Secondly, he doth not bestow abundance on the elect, because it becometh not the persons of them, whom he hath appointed to be as Patterns and preachers unto others of patience, temperance, sobriety, continually to live in pleasures, to far deliciously, to court it out in gorgeous apparel; to teach patience, it had not been so effectual in job, only to have made a long speech in the commendations of patience curiously penned, as in deed to suffer the loss of all his substance, his children, and to be tormented in his body. It could not beseem john the Baptist a preacher of repentance, to far deliciously every day, or brave it out in costly raiment. Not the words only, but especially the deeds of the children of God, must be Sermons unto others, to draw them unto virtue, and godliness. Now, many virtues be of that nature, that they cannot well be shown in continual earthly felicity, as valour without an enemy, patience where there is no wrong done, or no adversity happen, prudence and circumspection to prevent evils, if no fear of evil ever happen. Wherefore albeit godly men enjoy less worldly pleasures in this present life then the ungodly; yet are not the promises of God false, but you misconstrue the true intent of them, not knowing that under the name of these blessings mentioned in the law, especially spiritual graces are intended, as Jerome, Gregory, Ambrose, and all the Fathers affirm: which spiritual graces, are always in this life performed unto the elect of God, so far forth, as they are fit for their vocation, on some more, on some less▪ none of them want a sufficientcy of them to bring them unto everlasting life. As for temporal blessings, which are not principally intended, they are so far forth performed unto the elect (though none of them ca● in right challenge any, sith none fulfil the law) as they may be means towards the obtaining of those spiritual blessings principally intended them. In that the wicked abound in all earthly blessings, it proceedeth of the long patience, and mere mercy of God. But the evils threatened against them in the law, shall come on them, when they have ended their wicked race. Now, conterning your fourth reason, to prove falsehood in the scripture: God affirmed that he would help the Israelites no more: Yet contrary to this, it is afterward affirmed▪ that he did again help them: in these words there is no contradiction as you imagine. The which that you may plainly see, you must consider the double state of the Israelites. First their estate whilst they were Idolaters and grievous Apostates from God. In this estate and as long as they so continued, God pronounceth that he will not help them any more. Afterwards, the Israelites repent them of their wickedness, and cried for the mercy of God, and in this penitent estate, he helped them. This misconstruing of the word of God, proceedeth of your ignorance and rashness, they who are not well studied in the scripture, may not take upon them to censure places of the scripture, for many places are very hard to be understood, the which to meddle with is presumption, for those that are not well exercised in divinity, if you had known that general rule which is set down in the Eighteen of jeremy, where the Lord saith, 
Ezech. 33.14.15.  I will speak suddenly against a nation or a kingdom to pluck it up, aend to root it out, and to destroy it. But if the nation against whom I have pronounced turn from their wickedness, I will repent of the plague that I thought to bring upon it. And again, I will speak suddenly concerning a nation or kingdom to build it, and plunt it. But if this nation or kingdom do evil in my sight, and hear not my voice, I will repent of the good that I thought to do for them, when as the Lord holp the Israelites, whom he said he would not help, the Lord was not changed, who always determineth to bless those that do well, and punish those who do ill. But the Israelites were changed, his promises of blessings & threats of punishments in things temporal, are always with exception and so to be understood, though in every promise of blessings, and threatening of punishment, the exception be not specified, as without exception it was pronounced of Niniveth, yet forty days, and Niniveth shall be● destroyed, 
jona. 3.4.  yet was it not destroyed, because they repent, yet the exception of repentance is not mentioned. So likewise, when as the Lord had afflicted the Israelites by the Assyrians, until they were brought to repentance, the Lord saith, 
Nahum. 1.12. 2. Kin. 25. jer. 5. & 39 Iere. 18.  though I have afflicted thee, yet will I afflict thee no more. Yet notwithstanding afterwards did he afflict them by the Babylonians, because they continued not in the worship of God. The promise was general, that he would not afflict them any more, yet was it to be expounded according to that general rule mentioned in jeremy. Thus you see that these places (as also there are many more like unto these) which seem to be contradictions at the first view, out of which, men of perverse minds willing to wrangle, may pick matter enough to please their wayward humour, and easily deceive themselves and others. God so tempering it, that it should be a stumbling block to men of perverse minds. But a light and a comfort to those that are of an humble spirit, desirous to know the truth. Thus much concerning your contradictions in the scripture. Now, pray what are those absurdities which you speak of in the scripture.  Tra. 
You say, that if there be any absurdity in the Scripture, you will not believe the Scripture. I pray tell me this, Is it not absurd, that one man should be punished for another man's fault? Doth not the Scripture teach you, that God will punish the sin of the Fathers, upon his children? is this equity? is not this absurd? Again, the Scripture teacheth you, that no man can be saved but by faith in the merits of jesus Christ: and yet it cannot be denied, but that many thousand thousands never heard of Christ, both before the law given to Moses, and in the time of the old Testament, & also since the time of the Gospel. Doth God create men to damn them? is this equity? is not this absurd? Of all the people in the world, he chose only the jews before the coming of Christ. Since his coming only they shall be saved, who believe the Gospel: but to many thousands the Gospel hath not been preached; and how should they then believe it? is not this cruelty, to condemn men for not believing the Gospel, of which they never heard? pray answer me this.  Stud. 
Before I answer your first objection, that God doth not justly in punishing the sins of the Fathers upon their children; Tell me, if a snake should sting any of your children, and escape, if you should afterward find that snake with his young ones, would you only kill the old snake which stinged your child, & let go his young ones, or else kill them all?  Trau. 
I would kill them all.  Stud. 
But the young snakes were guiltless, they never did harm unto any: this is cruelty, to kill the innocent with the hurtful.  Tra. 
But they may do harm, and will also if they be suffered to live, it is their natures so to do, they cannot alter their hurtful nature.  Stud. 
See how partial you are in judgement, you justify yourself in doing that, which in God you account injustice & cruelty. You think you have reason for your doing, yet you carp at the majesty of God. Yea though he doth not as you do, destroy the young snakes which never did harm, God doth not punish any that are harmless, but only punish the wicked sons of wicked parents. For it is not said as you repeat the words, that God will visit the sins of the Fathers, upon the third or fourth generation, whether guilty, or guiltless; but it is added, on them that hate him. The children which hate God, are not guiltless. Neither are you to understand under the name of punishment, any kind of punishment, but only temporal punishment. For no sinner is damned for the sin of his father: for this punishment of eternal damnation, no man shall suffer for any man's fault, but his own: the soul that sinneth, 
Ezech. 18.  shall die. Furthermore, God doth not punish with temporal punishments the wicked sons of wicked parents, with greater punishments for the sins of their Fathers, than their own sins do justly deserve. But in this respect God is said to punish the wicked sons of wicked parents unto the third and fourth generation, because God appointeth unto every nation, city, and family, a time to continue, before he poureth out his wrath upon them, until they have filled up that measure of sins, and grown so obstinate in sin as God hath appointed, then no longer to suffer them. So that if the father of a wicked son had not sinned, God would longer have deferred the punishment of his wicked son. The way for parents to have their posterity to continue long and prosper, is to abstain from sin: for in sinning, they hasten the ruin of their posterity. Furthermore, in this punishing of the sins of the Fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation; not only the son, but also the Father is punished too. When God afflicteth the son, the father is grieved oftentimes more than the son, to see his son in trouble, vexation, or tormented with diseases, or suffer loss of goods, and live in misery. Examples hereof, we have both in profane, and divine histories: David wished that he had died for his rebellious son Absalon. And Appian in his history of the civil wars of the Romans, in the fearful times of proscription showeth, what great care parents had towards their children, venturing their own lives to save their sons. God in punishing the sins of the Fathers upon the children; not only hereby calleth the sons to repentance; but also the Fathers: and this is the reason, that God punisheth the sins of the Fathers upon the children, no further then unto the fourth generation; because usually, no father liveth longer than that he may see any of his posterity, after that fourth generation. After this fourth generation, no affliction laid on his posterity, can bring him to repentance. For repentance cannot be but in this life. Seeing therefore, that such are the ardent affections even of wicked parents towards their children, that they as much, yea oftentimes more desire to see their children to live in prosperity, than themselves, (God knowing their inordinate love, that they love their children more than God himself.) He therefore threateneth wicked parents that he will punish their children for their sin: that if for love or fear of him, they will not abstain from sin, yet they might fear to offend God for love of their children; and the more to incite fathers unto godliness, he doth promise good fathers, (that is, such as unfeignedly do their endeavour to live according to God's commandments) that he will bless their children to a thousand generations, in them that fear him. This being so, you unjustly accuse God of injustice in punishing the sins of the Fathers upon their children: sith these temporal punishments do not exceed the desert of their own proper sins. Nay, if you well consider this manner which God useth in punishing the sins of the Fathers upon the childred, you shall find that God dealeth most mercifully herein. For first, in the God prolongeth his punishment, he giveth time & space to the father to repent, which if he do, neither father, nor son suffereth punishment. Secondly, in this kind of punishing, God calleth both father & son to repentance: but especially the father, in a more fit time to repentance, then if he should presently lay some temporal punishment on him, as soon as he offendeth: for more headstrong are men in their youth to take their pleasure in sin, then in their old age; they will fulfil their lusts then, though they smart for it. But in older years, their affections are not so vehement; then are they more considerate in their actions, and fit to receive correction. If God then call them to repentance, they will not be so unruly. Wherefore most unjustly you term this kind of punishing, absurd and unjust dealing. Now, concerning your second absurdity, which you would gather out of the Scripture, because the Scripture teacheth us, that none can be saved, except they believe in Christ: Of whom, many before the law given to Moses, and in the time of the old law, and since the time of the Gospel never heard of; and that before the time of the Gospel, God chose only the nation of the jews, rejecting all other people, and since only the believers: and out of this, you conclude, God to be cruel and unjust, to create men, and then condemn them for not observing the law of Moses, of which they never heard, and for not believing in him, of whom they never heard. For answer hereof, you must know, that God saveth men after two manner of ways, ordinarily, and extraordinarily. Now, when as the Scripture teacheth us, that none can be saved except they believe in Christ, it is to be understood only of those men: unto whom that ordinary means of salvation have been revealed, except the fault be in themselves, that these means were not known unto them. Wherefore Children, who are not capable of these ordinary means, are saved without this actual faith in Christ. Neither shall any being of years and discretion, ever be condemned for not believing expressly in the merits ot Christ, if he never heard of Christ. If his ignorance be such, as by his diligence he could not come to the knowledge of Christ. Neither shall any of the Gentiles to whom the law of Moses was not known, be condemned for not observing the law of Moses, and that many men were accepted of God, before either Moses, or the law given to him was ever hard of, it is most manifest; as Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, jacob, & joseph, and many thousands more. Who although they had not the written law of Moses, yet had they a law nothing differing from the law of Moses, even the law of reason and conscience, with was written in their hearts, that ground of with law our saviour mentioneth, affirming, that in substance, it differeth nothing from the law of Moses. 
Mat. 7.12.  Whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye unto them. For this is the whole law and the Prophets. This compendious and short Bible we have always about us, written in our hearts; by the which if we square our actions, we shall never do amiss. By the direction only of this law, (I exclude not the internal operation of the holy spirit in the hearts of men: For without it, though we had all the directions unto godliness in the old and new testament by heart, yet it would nothing profit us) all the godly men before the law of Moses pleased God, who always believed the redemption of mankind, by the seed of the woman, being taught this, either by tradition from Adam and their forefathers, or else by special revelation. For the goodness of God (no doubt) in reveling those things which pertained to their salvation, was no less before the time of Moses, then after the time of Moses unto the Prophets. Nay in probability God then more usually by special revelation directed those that worshipped him, because they had then no written law to direct them, as we now have, and that this mystery of salvation by the seed of the woman, was known unto them, their sacrifices which they offered unto God, do easily show. Wherefore most false is that which you say, that God chose only the nation of the jews, and rejected all people else. I confess that the jews held this for a truth, that only the circumcised could be saved, & all other damned, 
Act. 10.34 35.  of the which opinion also was the Apostle Peter until he was better instructed, But it was only a tradition of their elders, their law taught them not this, they were commanded not to join league or familiarity with the people of Canaan, but destroy them. But after all the Canaanites were destroyed, they thought it unlawful to have any dealing with the uncircumcised, and herein they erred. True it is, that God cheese of all the nations in the world, only the jews, but to what? not to salvation, for many of the Gentiles were elected to this, aswell as the jews: but to be Priests and instructors to the world, to be examples and guides to worship God, to all people. For as Aaron and his Sons, amongst the jews, were separated from other tribes, to be holy unto the Lord, and to be priests and instructors to their brethren: So the whole nation of the jews were separated from all other nations, to be priests unto all nations, and to be, as the Apostle saith of them, 
Rom 2.17 18.19.  guides of the blind, and as lights to them which sit in darkness, instructors of them which lack discretion, and teachers of them which are unlearned. So that this choice of the jews out of other nations, is not to be understood of choice to salvation, as if God excluded all other nations from salvation; but only of their pre-eminence above others: on whom he would show greater favour than unto other nations, in giving them his written laws, which as a Candle might lighten the darkness of their understanding: other nations might well be said to sit in darkness, incomparison of the jews, 
2. Pet. 1.19.  because they wanted this light of the written word of God, and that this their choice, was only a choice of pre-eminence above other nations, the very words which God useth in choosing them, maketh most manifest. If (saith the Lord to the jews) you will hear my voice indeed, 
Exod. 19.5.6. 1. Pet. 2.1.6.  and keep my covenants, then shall ye be my chief treasure above all people, though all the earth be mine, ye shall be also unto a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. Now, in saying that they shall be his chief treasure: God insinuateth also, that other nations are his treasure, But the jews his chief treasure, and that upon condition too, If they in deed keep his commandments. And further, he showeth to what purpose and duty he chooseth them: To be priests unto him, to set forth his glory by them to all nations: And this is the reason why always (when they offended God) he used for their punishment, 
Tobit. 1 3.  to give them into the hands of their enemies, and scatter them amongst the nations, that the nations might learn of them the knowledge of the true God. When they had them in captivity, and then were the jews most fit to teach others, both by their life and doctrine, when by captivity they were humbled: & this kind of punishment was so usual, that the heathen people observed it, as it appeareth by the advise of Achior to Holofernes, Saying, 
judit. 5.18  that God used to give them into the hands of their enemies to be led captives, if they offend him; and if you examine this matter well, you shall find, that no nation under heaven have ever been scattered abroad into so many countries, nor so often, as have been the jews, whereby it came to pass, that the knowledge of God was spread abroad throughout all lands. So that, (as the Apostle saith,) By the fall of the jews, 
Rom. 11.11.12.  salvation came to the Gentiles, and riches to the world. Furthermore, God did not so give his written law unto the jews, as that he excluded any from the knowledge and benefit of it, but whosoever would, of what nation soever he was, might be partaker of this benefit as well as the jews; and this point, that the jews should not exclude any from the knowledge of the law of Moses, is expressly set down in the law of Moses, 
Exod. 12.48.  the words are these. If a stranger dwell with thee, and will observe the passouer, let him circumcise all the males that belong unto him, and then let him come and observe it: and he shall be as one that is borne in the Land. Which Gentiles, albeit they might not celebrate the passover with the jews, except they were circumcised (according to the law before mentioned) yet might they come into the utmost part of the temple to worship: and their prayers and oblations were no less accepted of, than were the prayers of the jews. Which is hereby manifest, in that Solomon, when he had built the temple, amongst other petitions which in his prayer he maketh to God, prayeth to God, that if any stranger come from a far country, 
1. King. 8.41.42.43.  which is not of the people of Israel, & pray unto him, that God would grant their petitions in whatsoever they ask: In which prayer of Solomon, this is especially to be noted, that he prayeth to God to hear the prayers of the jews, with condition, if they take heed to observe the laws of the Lord. But praying for the Gentiles, he addeth no condition of observing the laws of God. The reason hereof is, 
Pet. Mart. in Reg. 8.41.  because the jews had his written laws; & therefore they ought to do their endeavour to obey them. But the gentiles had not; and therefore this condition of observing his laws was not added. Now, you must know, that Solomon prayed, being directed by the spirit of God. The Gentiles therefore, were more likely to be heard in their prayers then the jews, because no exception of obtaining is added in their prayers: as in his prayer for the jews. Now, that the jews admitted all men of what nation so ever they were to come & dwell amongst them according to the forementioned law, it is most manifeh in the Acts of the Apostles, 
Ex. 12.48. Act. 2.5.4  where it is said that there were dwelling at jerusalem, jews which came to worship at jerusalem, out of all nations under heaven. Who were termed jews, not because they were borne jews, but because they were borne of jewish parents, and not only such strangers who were descended from jews, but also Gentiles, as Romans, and other Prosilites, who were converted from Gentilism unto the jews religion. Furthermore, 
Act. 2.10.  they were especially commanded to use strangers kindly. Nay further, 
Deut. 23.7.8. 2. Sam. 24.18. josua. 15.63.  their law commandeth to admit strangers to dwell amongst them, and that many of the Gentiles dwelled amongst them, mention is made in divers places of the Scripture. Besides this, the Gentiles which dwelled a far off, resorted unto the jews to be instructed, and to worship at jerusalem, 
1. Kin. 10. Math. 12.42.  as the Queen Sheba with a great train with her; the chief governor of Candaces' Queen of Ethiopia; Yea divers Kings gave great revenues to the jews to pray unto God for them. Yea, not only the Gentiles came unto the jews, to learn the knowledge of the true God, but also the jews willingly remained and dwelled amongst the Gentiles, by whom the Gentiles learned the knowledge of the true God: as it is manifest, when Cyrus gave leave to all the jews to return to their Country, many of them would not, but chose rather to dwell amongst the Gentiles, than return, and that the jews had Synagogues almost in every nation, 
Act 13.1. Act. 14.1.  (where they taught all comers their religion.) It is most manifest in very many places of the Scripture, and their double diligence in making Proselytes, and converting others to their religion, not only our Saviour Christ noteth, but also the heathen people ascribed unto them, as a fault. Our Saviour saith of them, Ye compass sea and land to make one of your profession, 
Math. 23.15.  and when he is made, ye make him twofold, more the child of hell, than yourselves. For though they used extraordinary pains to win men unto their religion, yet herein they marred all. First, in that they more urged their own traditions, then the word of God. Secondly, they lived so lewdly, that many of their well disposed converts took offence thereat, and returned to their Gentilism again, and thereby became twofold, the children of hell more than they were before. 
2. Pet. 2.14  For better it had been for them never to have known the way of truth, then after they had known it, to turn from it, This double diligence in making Prosilites that heathen reproved in them, because they were herein so violent, that they rather constrained men, than persuaded them to be of their religion, as the Poet saith: Ac velut, te judei cogemus in hanc concedere turbam. 
Horat. li. 1. satire. 4. Juvenal. satyr. 14.  Now, besides this knowledge which the heathen had of God by the means of the jews, God used many other means to instruct them, sometimes instructing them by himself, as he did Abraham, Isaac, and jacob; Sometime by the ministry of Angels; sometimes by dreams, as Pharaoh, and Nabucodonoser; sometimes by means unknown unto us. For who knoweth how Melchisedek came to the knowledge of God, who not only knew God, but also was a Priest of the high God? Now, being a King, and a Priest, we cannot imagine, but that he endeavoured to make his subjects of his religion. And it is absurd to think that he alone knew God. Who knoweth by what means Henock and his sons came to the knowledge of God above other men? Whose sons were termed for a long time, the sons of God, 
Gen. 5.22. Gen. 6.2.  because their father Henock lived so innocently, and so godly amongst wicked persons, that he seemed rather to be a God, than a man. How came jetro to be a Priest of the most high God, and to think him a Priest without people, whom he taught were absurd. No doubt, but the Ninivites had a kind of knowledge of the true God, else would they not have repent in sackcloth and ashes, at once preaching by a stranger. Though the Gentiles erred herein, in thinking that there were many Gods; yet they thought that there was one chief God above all the rest, whom they feared above the rest: and that they all stood in fear of that one God above the rest. It is manifest by divers places of the Scripture, this God whom they feared above the rest, was termed by the Gentiles, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and jacob, before the time of Moses; afterwards, they termed him the God of the jews. For proof hereof, ye may remember, that when King Abimilech had taken away Abraham's wife, the God of Abraham commandeth him to restore her again. 
Gen. 20.  He worshipped other Gods, on whose protection he would have relied and detained Sarah still, if he had not feared the God of Abraham above all the rest of his supposed Gods. The fear of this God made Abimilech to desire to be in league with Isaac. 
Genes. 26.28.  For the profane people found this by experience, that God blessed those that were at league with them, and that no man prospered, or prevailed against them. Laban was an Idolater, and put his trust in many Gods, yet when the God of jacob commanded him to desist from his malicious purpose against jacob, he obeyed for fear, 
Genes. 31.24.  and not for love. When David pursued after the Amalekites, who had taken his two wives prisoners, and could not find them; in searching for them, he findeth an Egyptian boy, one of their company: This youth was brought up in théeving, & robbing; he would by no means confess where his company was, except David would swear unto him by God, that he would not kill him, or deliver him to his master. When David had sworn unto him, then without fear he conducted them to the Amalekites. 
1. Sam. 30.15.  This youth (whom Galuin commenting upon that place, calleth half a beast for his ignorance) had a greater and more religious estimation of an oath taken in the name of God, then very many who now profess the name of Christ. He thought that no man would be so impious, as to abuse the name of God. Infinite it were to reckon up all the proofs with make for this purpose Wherefore you see how far you are deceived to think that God chose only the jews to salvation, and rejected all the nations else in the world; and since the Gospel none saved, except they believed the Gospel, though they never heard of it. We may not think so, for (as the Apostle saith) he is a God as well of the Gentiles, as the jews. 
Rom. 3.  And he ever had his elect throughout all the world amongst all nations whatsoever. It is said of the Sodomites, 
Genes. 13.13.  that they were exceeding wicked. Insomuch, that when the Scripture would express sinners in the highest degree, they are compared to the Sodomites: 
Esay. 1.10.  as Esay termed the most wicked jews, Sodomites. Likewise doth jeremy, 
Lamen. 4.6. Ezech. 16.48.  and Ezechiell. Yet in this so wicked a city, even at the time she came to the height of her abominations, God had his elect in it, Lot and his family; and in the time of Noah, when men were so exceeding wicked, that it repent God, that he had made man. Yet even then, had God his elect amongst them, even Noah, his wives and his sons, 
〈…〉. 8. Gen. 7.1. 2. Pet. 2.5.  yea God himself giveth testimony of Noah, that he was a righteous man, and he was not only righteous himself, but he was also a preacher of righteousness unto others. Now, if God had his elect in this so abominable a City, and in so abominable times, surely, we may not but think, that he had many more of his elect in other places, and at other times which are not noted of any extraordinary impiety. And albeit it cannot be denied, but that many of the nations lived in great ignorance; yet it cannot be denied also, but that God is as well the Creator of the ignorant, as the wise; and that he hath a fatherly care over all mankind, and beareth with their weakness, 
Psal. 103.13.14.  considering of what mettle they are made. And that on whom he hath bestowed little, he will require but little. And that he useth great compassion on these silly ignorant souls. Which is most manifest by his answer unto jonas, who murmured against him for sparing the Ninivites, replied, 
jonas. 4.11  Should I not spare Niniveh that great city, wherein are six score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand? Yea such is the exceeding goodness of God, that those sins which we commit of ignorance, he doth not impute unto us, & this was the cause why Christ our Saviour prayed for those who ignorantly crucified him, (being seduced by the malice of the Scribes and Pharisces, and Elders; taking him not to be the Messias, but to be a seducer of the people) saying, 
Luk. 23.34  Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. God useth a different judgement according to the difference of men, they that have received the knowledge of the law and the Gospel, 
john. 5.45  he will judge according to the law and the Gospel; 
Rom. 3.19  
Rom. 2.15  they who never heard of the law or the Gospel, 
Reu. 20.13  he will not judge them thereby, but by their consciences. 
Vide Dionis. Carth. in Heb. 11.6 Perkins in his tract of conscience  To these men the ignorance of the law and the Gospel is not sin, but a consequent of sin, as learned men hold, if they know not what is commanded in the law or the Gospel; if they do it not, to them it is not imputed as sin. For as S. james saith, To him that knoweth how to do well, 
jam. 4.17.  and doth it not, to him it is sin.  Trau. 
Now surely, if ignorance be a cause why God will not impute my sins unto me, I am sorry that ever I saw the Bible; I am sorry that ever I went to Church, or heard Sermons: and hence forward, I will never come to Church any more, (keeping myself out of the compass of the law) and I will do my best endeavour to forget all that I have learned. For (if there be a God that will judge me) by this means I shall have the less to answer for.  Stu. 
See how you gather out of my words, that which I affirm not. I say not that ignorance is the cause why God will not impute those sins which we commit of ignorance; but that God in his mercy will not impute them. Whereas you say that you are sorry that ever you saw the Bible, came to Church, are heard Sermons: Indeed you have great cause to be sorry, except you make better use of it; and better it were not to know the will of God, 
2. Pet. 2.21.  then knowing it, not to observe it (as I have said before) the knowledge of it, is either a savour of death unto death, or a savour of life in all men. Whereas you say, you will do your best endeavour hereafter to forget that you know, Therein you do as foolishly, as if a man knowing that he is to pass through a dangerous way, full of stumbling blocks, would blindfold himself, lest he should see what he might stumble at. To bring you out of your error therefore, When I say that God hath compassion on the ignorance of men, and will not deal extremely with them, who of ignorance offend, I understand not all kind of ignorance. Divines distinguish of ignorance, One kind of ignorance they call vinsibilis, which by diligence may be avoided. The other invinsibilis, which by no diligence can be avoided. The former kind also is of divers sorts one more pardonable than the other. The ignorance, which cometh by the imhecilitie of nature, which is the ignorance of those, whom we commonly call Innocents', and the ignorance which cometh by reason of the difficulty of the things to be understood, or by the small means to attain to the knowledge of things to be known, is most pardonable, yet sins they are, else God would not have appointed sacrifices for them. But affected ignorance voluntarily used, is most dangerous: and he which useth it, is no less culpable of his own damnation, than he which voluntarily abstaineth from food & pineth himself to death, is guilty of his own death. For as the one is appointed as a means to continued man's life, so the other is appointed as a means to obtain life everlasting. And as we are to labour for the one, so also for the other, otherwise are we guilty of our own destruction. As for the other kind of ignorance, which Divines call invinsibilis, such as by no means can be avoided, is not taken for a sin, but a consequent of sin (as I have said before.) So that the heathen who never by any means could hear of Christ, offend not, in not believing in Christ expressly. Yet in that they naturally know that there is a God, and that he is a rewarder of those that do well: By consequent they acknowledge his providence, and by consequence hereof, they believe that God hath a means to save their souls, though the means thereof be unknown to them. To this their general belief in God, I add unto their natural knowledge of God, the internal operation of the holy Ghost, whereby they are brought, as to know God by discourse of reason, so to love and obey God by the inspiration of the holy ghost. Now, albeit the knowledge of these heathen men, be in comparison of the knowledge of those, to whom the law and the gospel have been revealed, but as smoke in comparison of the brightness and light of a burning torch, and as a bruised reed in comparison of the great Cedars of Libanus in strength. 
Esay. 42.3. Vide Caluinum in hunc locum. Perkins in his reformed Catholic. Point. 16.  Yet god in his great goodness in Christ, will not break these bruised reeds, nor quench this smoking flax. God respecteth not so much the degree of perfection in these men, as the sincerity of their affection & love towards him, who would worship him in truth, if they knew the truth, differing not from those of knowledge in affection, but erring only in the circumstance of worshipping God. When David pursued after the Amalekites (who had taken his two wives prisoners) in pursuit after them, two hundred of his men were so tired, that they were not able to pass over the river Besor, therefore David left them behind, and with the rest passed the river, overtook the Amalekites, prevailed against them, and took all their spoil, than he returned to those two hundred men, which he left behind, whom he would make partakers of the spoil which he had taken from the Amalekites. 
1. Sam. 30 22.  But (as the text termeth them) certain wicked men withstood him, Saying, that it was not reason, that they who struck never a stroke against their enemies, should participate of the spoil. Notwithstanding David endued with the spirit of God, divided the spoil equally amongst all his soldiers, accepting the endeavour of the weakest, as much as the strength of the strongest. So surely, God accepteth of that which men have, and not exacteth of them that which is beyond their ability, they according to their ability do their endeavour to please him. As for their other defects, he for Christ's merits pardoneth, thus much concerning your supposed absurdities. Now let us hear your manifest falsehoods in the scripture, or else if you can except against any thing that hath been spoken, reply.  Trau. 
Reply? Why by such interpretations you may make any thing true. If these places are thus to be understood, why are they not in plain terms so easily set down, that every man might understand them, doth God delight to make men err? But because you shall not hereafter thus wind out of matters; I will now instance in such plain and evident places of the scripture, that you cannot deny without impudency, but that they are most false, since in yourself you have by experience proved them to be so, the places are these, where Christ saith; 
joh. 15.  Verily I say unto you, if you ask any thing in my name of my Father, 
Math. 21.  he will give it you; and in an other place ask what you will, and it shall be given you; and in an other place, all things whatsoever you ask, not in doubting, ye shall receive. I must believe that I shall have them, else I shall not receive them. And hereupon, when I lived here in Oxford, in very mean & base estate (yet I confess, I never bore a base mind) it grieved me much, I was very desirous to be advanced. Therefore at that time thinking those words of Christ true, in a blind simplicity, I prayed long and often, to be in better estate. But for all my devotions, I was never the better. When I saw that, I began a better course to provide for myself, and used such means whereby now I am in good estate, and I mean to better it. Had I not taken this course here in Oxford, I might have yet been praying and believing, and never the better. And if you will not believe me, believe your own experience. This being so; why should I take that for truth, which all men by experience in themselves and others have always found to be most false.  Stud. 
Whereas you say, that by interpretations I may make any thing true: it is not so. No interpretations can make that which is indeed true to be false, or that which is false, true. Words cannot alter the natures of things, and make truth, falsehood; or falsehood, truth. Whereas in scorn you demand, whether God doth delight to make men err, because many things in the Scripture are hard to be understood. You are to know, that God hath appointed a general day of judgement, wherein the deeds of all men shall be judged, in the presence of men and Angels. And therefore before hand hath so tempered things, that all men in their deeds might show what they are. When the Lord gave the land of Canaan unto the children of Israel, he might have destroyed all the Canaanites, when he brought the Israelites first into the land. 
judg. 3.  But he did not, that by those Canaanites which were left alive in the Land, 
Deut. 15.  the hearts of the Israelites might be manifested: To try whether they would be drawn to idolatry: To try whether they would enter into league and familiarity or no with the Canaanites, the which was precisely forbidden them. So likewise, God could have made the scripture in all places so easy, that it should nor need any interpreter. But he hath not, to try the hearts of men. These hard places of the scripture, they who are of an humble spirit, seek to understand with humility & reverence. Because god hath commanded them to read the scriptures, & make it their study, that out of it, they might know what is his will. All they therefore, who are desirous to obey his will, will read his word, that they might know what his will is, revealed in his word, that they may do it, and observe it. If they meet with any difficult place to be understood, they will not presume to censure it, or as you, & the like, draw it to an absurdity: but acknowledge that weakness of their capacity. They learn out of the Scriptures, that many things there in contained are not written for every man's understanding, but are reserved unto their due time, in which God hath appointed them to be understood, as many prophecies both in the old Testament and the new. 
Dan. 12.9.  The understanding whereof is not known before the things prophesied of are performed. That men comparing the events of things with the former Prophecies, might see that things come not to pass by chance, since such events were foretold, that they should come to pass many years before they fell out. Therefore they make use of those things which they understand. As for those things with pass their understanding, they reverence, and not censure them. Now, whereas you condemn the scripture of manifest falsehood, because you have not obtained by you prayers, whatsoever you have asked; because it is said in the Scripture, ask what you will believe, and ye shall obtain it. The promise is most true, but by you much mistaken. For this promise is made only unto the true believers. Now, many there are who vainly persuade themselves, that they are true believers, who indeed are not. Who pray after their manner, but not as they should, and they obtain not. And no marvel, for the promise pertaineth not unto such men. Wherefore to show your error in construing these promises; You are to consider many circumstances requisite to obtain that which you pray for. The first and principal is, that that which you pray for, you seriously without hypocrisy, intent to use unto the glory of God. Secondly, many things are required in the person which prayeth. Many things, in the things prayed for, or the persons for whom we pray for, and in respect of God, to whom we pray. In the person which prayeth, first, he must be in charitte, he must forgive all men, else he obtaineth not, except you forgive men their trespasses, 
Mat. 6.15.  my father which is in Heaven will not forgive you your trespasses. 
ja. 1.6.7.  He must pray in faith not doubting, not that he shall receive every thing without exception whatsoever he asketh (for this cannot stand with a true faith.) But that God is able and will perform any thing which we ask of him, so far forth, as those things we ask shallbe behooveful for us and fit for our calling and place wherein God hath appointed us to live in. Again, if we look that God should hearken unto our prayers, we may not be stained with gross and heinous sins. 
Esay. 1.15.  For the prayers of the wicked are an abomination unto the Lord. Yea their prayers are turned unto sin. He must lift up pure hands unto the Lord; 
1. Tim. 2.  He must not be cruelly minded, or hard hearted. For it is said, that he which shutteth his ear at the cry of the poor, he shall cry and not be heard. 
Prou. 21.  He must not be of an obstinate and stubborn mind, but ready and willing to obey the commandments of the Lord. For it is said, 
Pro. 28.9.  he that turneth his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abominable. But the prayer of the just availeth much. 
1. Pet. 5.  Just they are esteemed, who have a serious endeavour without hypocrisy, to follow and obey the commandments of God; though they fall Seven times, yea many times a day. These and the like are required in the persons which may obtain that which they ask for. So likewise, many things are to be considered in the things we pray for. The things for which we pray to God, are in general of two sorts, either they are good things which we desire to obtain; Or else they are evil things from which we desire to be freed from. Again, the things which are good, are of two sorts. Either they are simply good, such as cannot be abused; As faith, hope, charity, forgiveness of sins, eternal life: Or else they are in part good, such as may be well used, or abused unto ill purposes. Of this kind are the natural gifts of the body and mind, as the strength of the body comeliness, and beautifulness, sharpness, and quickness of wit, learning, eloquence. Of this kind also are they, which the Philosophers call bona fortuna, as riches honour, & promotion, and such like. The former kind of good things which are good in themselves, we may absolutely without exception pray unto God for, that he would bestow them on us. The latter kind of good things, which are such which may be used unto ill purposes, we may not absolutely pray for without exception. But so far forth as they may be means and furtherances towards the obtaining of the former kind of good things: so that if any man prayeth for thief latter kind of good things without exception, (as namely, if the obtaining of them, may stand with the glory of God, his providence whereby before the foundations of the world, he hath appointed unto every man such graces as are fit for the persons of such estate, wherein he hath appointed them to live.) He prayeth not as he ought to pray, neither hath he which prayeth thus without exception for these kinds of good things, any promise in all the Scripture, that he shall obtain them. As for the former sort of good things, whosoever prayeth for them without exception in a true faith, hath even at the time of his faithful prayers, as much as will be sufficient for him, to bring him to eternal life. For whom God once loveth, he loveth for ever; and on whom once he bestoweth these kind of graces, (with Divines call gratum facientes) he always continueth them until they enter into the joys of heaven. Now, as the things with are good, are of two sorts, for which we must pray for after a different manner: so likewise the things which are evil, (from which we desire to be freed from) are of two sorts. And likewise we must make a difference of them in our prayers. The things which are evil, are either absolutely evil, or evil in part: Absolutely evil, are all manner of sins; evils in part, are all manner of evils of punishments; as the subversion of Countries, Cities, diseases, loss of goods & such like, It is our duty to pray unto God, that he would free us from sin, and this we may pray for without exception. As for the other sort of evils, which are termed mala poenae, evils of punishment; we may not pray for to be delivered from them but with exception, because these evils are great means, to keep us in true humility, in a true acknowledgement of our own weakensse and infirmity, to keep us in continual fear and worship of God. They cause us to pray unto God heartily for his aid, and in a word, they are very great means to bring us to the kingdom of God. 
2. Cor. 12. ●.  This was the cause that when as Paul prayed unto God, that that messenger of Satan which was sent unto him to buffet him, (lest he should be high minded, or be exalted above measure,) he obtained not his petition, for it was not convenient for him, but received this answer of God, that his grace was sufficient for him, and that his power is made perfect through weakness. Lastly, in respect of God, we are to consider his providence, we are not to expect that we should obtain any thing which he hath in his providence disposed of otherwise. An obedient son may pray for his father lying sick, that God would prolong his days; but oftentimes he obtaineth not his good desire, because God in his providence hath determined that his father should then end his days. These and the like conditions necessarily being required in the persons who pray, and the things prayed for, it is no marvel, though you prayed often, and yet obtained not, 
jam. 4.3.  because you prayed for those things, which you would spend on your lusts, you respecting nothing God's glory in those things you prayed for, but your own advancement. Nay rather, your prayer was a murmuring against God, and not a prayer. For you were discontented with your mean estate, and (to use your own words) if God would not advance you, you would provide for yourself. All men naturally desire to be in high estate, and if every one of us might by prayer obtain whatsoever we list, we would be all at the least Kings. But this cannot stand with the ordinance of God, nor with the general good of all mankind, as necessary it is for a common wealth, that there should be different degrees & states of men, as it is for man's body to have divers members of divers functions. If all the members should be the head, where should be tha stomach to nourish the head? If all should be the stomach, where should the head and the hands be, to provide meat for the stomach? The Ploughman is as necessary for the common wealth, as the noble Councillor; the one cannot be without the other. This being so, whosoever murmureth at that estate wherein God hath placed him, doth more offend, than that member of the body which refuseth to do his function, because it is not placed in a more eminent place. Besides this, it may be also, you were not in perfect charity with all men, or that you were stained with some grievous sins. And if it were so, then even your prayers were an abomination unto the Lord, much less might you look to obtain your desire.  Trau. 
O Sir, this is a good doctrine. If the prayers of those who are out of charity with some one or other; or whose lives are spotted with a few crimes, be an abomination unto God. (as you shall find the most part of men to be faulty herein, if you duly examine their lives) better it were a great deal, that the most part of men should not pray at all unto God. For their prayers are an abomination unto God, and do displease him. What is this else, but to dissuade men from praying when they have offended?  Stud. 
Surely, whether most men be out of charity with some one or other, and their lives stained with crimes, I know not; but if it be so, than I would exhort such men being out of charity, or stained with grievous sins, rather to abstain from prayer, until they seriously without hypocrisy from their heart, forgive all men, and also should seriously repent them of their sins, with a full determination to leave them of, and if they have taken any thing from any man by forged cavillation, or oppression, that they make restitution of it, if it be in their power, else they will be so far from obtaining their petitions, 
Psal. 109.  that their very prayer will be turned unto sins.  Trau. 
What, will it not be sufficient for a man to pray in faith, in charity, after he hath repent for all his sins: but he must necessarily make restitution, if he have taken other men's goods, which in extreme right he ought not to have had? this is a point of your preciseness. For I have heard I know not how often, that to pray in faith, and charity, is sufficient; and that by repentance, a man is cleansed from all his sins. And therefore I take exception against this restitution, being not necessary, because it is a point that somewhat toucheth me in particular.  Stud. 
Why you in particular?  Trau. 
I will tell you why, (sith I have begun to open my secrets upon promises of your fidelity and secrecy.) When I departed from Oxford, I went to teach a young Gentleman in the Country, whose Father was very old: with whom I practised the counsel of Tiresias, 
Hor. satyr. 5. lib. 2.  and of Daws so cunningly, that I quickly insinuated myself into great favour with the old man, in so much, that he thought no man was so fit to train up his young son, as myself. The which when I perceived, I pretended that I intended not to stay long with him, but provide some spiritual living, (but I meant nothing less.) For that would be a continual stay unto me: in staying with him, was but a point of folly. For when his son should come to years, than should I be cast off, to shift for myself. When the old Gentleman suspected that I watched opportunity ●o be gone from him, his desi●e to keep me was doubled. Many offers he made me, but (to be short) at length we agreed upon this; that I should have my life in a certain Farm, after the estate of one man, (who then had interest in it) should be void. After this conclusion, my old Master shortly died. He being dead, I got the counterpane of the title whereby this Farmer held his Farm. The which I showed to a very cunning Lawyer, desiring him, to find some defect in it, if he could. The which when he read it over, he told me, that the title indeed was very sufficient; notwithstanding, he could pick certain quarrels against it, and make a pretty show that it was not good. I requested him to do his best endeavour in the matter, and I would fee him well. I was the bolder to attempt this, because then there were two certain hungry fellows, who were in some distress, by reason they feared my young Master would not retain them in his service as his Father did: These men I knew were men of large consciences, and therefore the fit for my purpose. These men I brought into favour with my young Master, because I knew that these fellows would swear any thing for my sake. To omit many circumstances, I put the Farmer in suit for his living, pretending that his title was not good. Before the matter came to pleading, my Lawyer advised me in my ear many things, which accordingly I performed. And this I will tell you in your ear, by a little fee, and mediation of friends, I secretly got the Farmer's Lawyer more my friend then his Clients; yet he pleaded very eagerly, and used many words, but not directly to the point, as I know he could, and would have done, had not I otherwise before seasoned him. So that by this means, and the favourable oaths of my forenamed servingmen, the Farmer's title seemed not good. The judge did his duty, he could not but judge secundum allegata, & probata: By this means I got my Farm. But when I came to turn out the Farmer, his wife & children, they with his neighbours made such an outcry on me, with wild terms, that it somewhat amazed me. I knew before I put the Farmer in suit, that I should do him wrong in putting him from his Farm; but it then never moved my conscience to think on it. But when I had done it, then as an unwholesome meat after a man hath eaten it, it often riseth in the stomach, and upbraideth it: so when I had done this fact, often the remembrance of it did irk me, especially as oft as I came in sight of the Farmer, or any of his. So that I often then desired God (for then I was in a staggering opinion, sometimes doubting whether there was a God or no, and sometimes fearing, lest there should be a God that would punish me) heartily to forgive me my fault, and divers times then by fits heartily repent. Now sit, say that I did in this fact offend God and man, I am now guiltless. For in respect of God, I am free from this sin, because I have repent it, and at what time soever a sinner repenteth, God forgiveth him his sin. In respect of men, I offend not in possessing of the Farm. For the judge rightly according to the form of law, & proofs brought before him, pronounced sentence on my side. And therefore I justly possess it, according to law. This being so, I am not bound either by law or conscience to make restitution, sith in possessing it, I offend now, neither God nor man.  Stud. 
It is a strange thing, to see how you soothe yourself in your own sins, and how far Satan hath blinded you, that you should not take the right means to salvation: you detain other men's goods, and yet you do offend neither God nor man. Not God, because you have repent for the sin. Not man, because you possess it by right of law. Why, do you think that any kind of repentance is accepted of God, but a true repentance? or that we may possess any thing with a good conscience gotten by the abuse of law, as you have gotten your Farm? it is said, that judas repent, yet he was rejected of God. He repent seriously without hypocrisy, he repent even from the bottom of his heart: He acknowledged his fault before the high Priests, and Elders. 
Mat. 27.  He restored back the money ill gotten, of his own accord, but all this was in vain. For as God giveth unto Nations, Countries, and Cities, their set time & space to repent, which time, if they let slip without repentance, though afterwards they break these hearts with grief, yet is not their sorrow accepted. So likewise, he giveth to every man a set space to repent, which if he neglect, though he be afterward grieved, and after a sort (as judas) repent, yet their grief is no true repentance, nor accepted of: Neither can they truly repent, because it is a gift given to those, 
1. Sam. 2.25.  who truly love & obey God, which no wicked person doth. 
Rom. 1.24  And albeit we may not by the rule of charity, 
2. Thess. 2.11.  judge any particular man a reprobate, or one that hath overpast the time of repentance as long as he hath breath in his body, yet that there are many men, who have run on so long in their wickedness, that God hath rejected them many years before the time of their death, we may without breach of charity think, as it is manifest by the words of our Saviour Christ, weeping for jerusalem. Oh, 
Luke. 19.42.  if thou hadst known at the least even in this thy day, those things which pertained to thy peace! but now are they hid from thine eyes, because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. This signified our Saviour Christ in that Parable of the Figtrée, 
Luc. 13.6.  which only cumbered the ground in the vineyard, and brought forth no fruit: and therefore should have been presently cast out, but that the dresser of the vineyard obtained three years' space, to try, whether by manuring it, it might be brought to bring forth good fruit; if not in that space, it was to be cast out. When Esaw had for a small portion of meat sold his birthbright, afterwards he could not inherit, but was rejected, and though he sought it with tears, 
Heb. 12.17.  yet he found no place for his repentance; a bare grief, though it be from the bottom of the heart, 
Mat. 3.8.9.10.  is not a sufficient repentance; but there must be also an amendment of life. 
Luc. 13.3.  And this is the cause why Daniel exhorted Nabuchadnezzar (who by cruelty and oppression, had spoiled many of the poor) to break off his sins by righteousness, 
Dan. 4.24.  and by mercy and liberality to the poor, that by that means, he might make restitution of that he had unlawfully gotten. And if you will see the pattern of a true repentance, consider the example of Zacheus, who before his conversion to Christ, was infamous for wrongful dealing. But when he repent, then to redeem his faults committed against men, he gave half his goods to the poor, and if he had taken any thing from any man by forged cavillation, he would restore him foure-folde. 
Luc. 19.8.  For albeit we cannot by this means satisfy for our sins before God, yet by restitution of unlawful gotten goods we may, and aught to satisfy men. And that we ought to do this, we are expressly commanded so to do, in the sixth of Leviticus: Where it is said, that if any man by robbery or violence, or any way wrongfully detain any thing from his neighbour, he must restore the principal, and add the fift part unto it, unto the party defrauded. And likewise this precept is repeated again more plain, and more general for all trespasses, in the fift of Numbers. This therefore, is not a trick of my preciseness, as you imagine; but besides these plain & evident places of the Scripture, the learnedst Divines, both ancient & late, Protestants, & Papists, have ever held this to be a true Doctrine. And lest you should imagine that I feign this, here is S. Augustine, I will read his own words concerning this matter, 
Enchirid. c. 70. & 75.  Cavendum est, ne quisquam existimet infanda illa crimina, qualia qui agunt, regnum Dei non possidebunt quotidie perpetranda, & eleemosinis quotidie redimenda, in melius quip est vita mutanda: & per eleemosinas de peccatis praeteritis est propitiandus Deus, non ad hoc emendus: ut ea liceat semper committere. Nemini enim de dit laxamentum peccandi, quamuis miserendo deleat iam peccata facta, si non negligatur congrua satisfactio. And in the words following, I remember he saith, that many in his time were in that error, that they thought they might continue sinning, so they daily gave alms. Against whose error, he in that place purposely writeth. Also in his Epistle to Macedonius he thus saith: Si res aliena, cum reddi possit, non redditur, non agitur poenitentia, sed fingitur: & nisi restituatur ablatum, non remittitur peccatum. So that by his opinion, except restitution he made of unlawful goods (if they may be restored) it can be no true repentance, but a feigning of repentance, and the God remitteth not the sin, except restitution be made. Only he excepteth, that if the goods ill gotten, be spent before the time of repentance, so that the offendor is not able to make restitution; then an unfeigned grief, with a faithful endeavour to make satisfaction, is accepted with God. 
Lib. 4. destinct. 14.15.16.  Here could I reckon up many Fathers to this purpose, but because their opinions are for the most part set down in the Master of the Sentences, I refer you to read him. With these agree all the best writers, 
Salon in 2. 2. tom. q. 62 Pet. de Ar. lib. de ere. Grec. c. 17. Als. de Cast. li. de heres. in verb. restitutio. Cordub. lib. 1. quest. 41.  as Caluin, Brentius, Borrhaius, Medina, Salon, Petrus de Arragon, and many more. To these may be added the Council of Turone.  Trau. 
Let Scripture, Counsels, Fathers, Protestants, Papists, say all what they can, they can never conclude, that of necessity I must make restitution, or else be damned.  Stud. 
Why, what is your reason?  Trau. 
Because I have learned this rule, that no affirmative precept bindeth any man always to perform it. Obligat semper sed non ad semper. Whereas negative precepts bind us always ad semper. As for example. I am commanded to give alms to the poor, to pray always; yet am I not continually bound to be giving. For it is impossible for any man to have so much goods, as that he may be always giving. Again, I sin not, if I be not always praying. For God alloweth me the night to sleep, and take my rest; he alloweth me a time to take my food, and be merry, and a time to do my worldly business. Now, in negative precepts it is otherwise, I must always observe them; I must never kill, never bear false witness, never commit adultery. Now sir, that I must make restitution, or else my repentance is no true repentance, nor will be accepted of; you bring for proof of it, only affirmative precepts out of the Scripture: on which, your Council of Turone, your Fathers, your new Divines, both Protestants and Papists, ground their opinions. The ground of all their opinions being grounded on an affirmative precept, do not necessarily conclude that which they intent: which being so, I will hold my Farm, I will hold my hold, I possess it by law. I had rather be tied to observe all the commandments of God beside, than this. You must pardon me in this point.  Stud. 
It is a strange thing to see how subtle men are, to bring themselves to condemnation, and what wiles they can invent, that the word of God shall not take hold on their offences. But to answer you; It is true indeed, that Divines have such a rule, that affirmative precepts bind us always to observe them; but not at all times. And that negative precepts do bind us always, and at all times to observe them. But it pleaseth you to remember no more of the rule, then will make for your purpose. You will not take notice of that part of the rule, which maketh against you. For it is added in the rule of affirmative preeps, that albeit affirmative precepts do not bind you to do at all times that which is commanded, as to pray night and day without ceasing; or continually to give almez without intermission: yet do they necessarily bind us to observe them, when occasions, time and place require them to be done; when charity requireth the performance of them. Observe you these conditions of the rule, and you shall not offend. You have time and opportunity to restore your unlawful got goods, the rule of charity requireth it: Therefore you even by this rule, aught to have restored it before this time. And because you seem to esteem rules in expounding commandments or precepts; it is a general rule, that he which commandeth, or forbiddeth that which is of less importance, much more commandeth or forbiddeth that which is of greater importance in the same kind. As for example, in the tenth commandment it is said, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his. Surely God who forbiddeth us to covet these things of our neighbour, much more forbiddeth us in these words the unlawful possession of our neighbour's goods: if we may not covet them, much less may we have them, if we only covet them in our minds, we only offend God; but if we unlawfully take them, we offend God and man. Thus you see, that in possessing your Farm unlawfully gotten, you break both affirmative, and negative precepts. For if you may not covet any thing which is your neighbours, much less have them; then by necessary consequent, you ought to restore it again.  Trau. 
Tush, say I do not restore it, will you conclude me to be a reprobate?  Stud. 
No. For God may give you a true repentance, and move you to make restitution.  Trau. 
Nay, say I thus die, never intending to restore it: Will you conclude that I am damned? if every one who die in sin shall be damned, them Christ died in vain, who died for the sins of all men; this you will not hold.  Stud. 
Surely the Scripture teacheth me, that he which willingly refuseth the means of salvation, shall never obtain salvation. A true repentance, is a necessary means to be reconciled to God; therefore without it, no man can be saved: the Scripture is most plain in this point. The Lord saith in Ezechiell, 
Chap. 33.14.15.  When I say to the wicked thou shalt die the death; if he turn from his sin, & do that which is lawful and right, if he restore the pledge, (mark what here is required, he must restore the pledge to the poor, which was willingly delivered him by the owner, and not by wrong taken from him, as you got your Farm) and give back that he had rob (to got by fraud is a kind of robbery, and the worst kind) and walk in the statutes of life (it is not sufficient to abstain from evil, but he must do good) he shall live and not die. By these words the Lord showeth, after what manner he will judge all men, that they who truly and unfeignedly repent, that is, satisfy men for the wrongs done unto them, as much as in them lieth, and heartily desire pardon of God for their offence, shall be saved. But such as make no satisfaction unto men for wrongs done unto them, being in their power to do it, shall be damned; whatsoever vain pretences they make of repentance. 
Vide Caluinun in 3. ad. Heb. vers. 13.  For no true repentance can be without a sincere love of God: No sincere love of God, can be without a readiness and a willingness of mind to obey gods will; 
Math. 5.23.24.  Which is, first, to be reconciled to our brethren, and satisfy the wrong done unto him, if we can, before we ask pardon for our sins of him. If any man flatter himself, that God will pardon him, notwithstanding he hath not a willing mind, and do not his endeavour to be reconciled to his brother, and satisfy him for his wrong done unto him. He maketh God a liar, who cannot lie, and he shall find, (but too late,) that that which he foreshoweth, he will do, and will indeed perform. And furthermore, mark well after what manner God will judge all men: Unto the merciful men god will say, I was hungry, thirsty, naked, and in prison, & ye refreshed me, clothed me, & ye visited me. For, in that they did these things to the distressed members of Christ, they did it unto him. But unto the unmerciful he will say, I was hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and in prison, and you refreshed me not, clothed me, nor visited me. Hear mark well his judgement on the unmerciful men. He condemneth them, because they gave not of their own unto other men néeding their help; if he will condemn those, who have less sinned, much more will he condemn those, 
V●de interpraetes in Luc. 16.25.  who have more grievously sinned: For his judgements are just. Now these testimonies which I have alleged, are prophecies foreshowing in what manner God will judge all men, and all prophecies in the scripture shall as truly be fulfilled, as God is true. I conclude therefore that he which restoreth not his unlawful got goods having time, occasion, opportunity, and ability, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  Trau. 
Why, pray did Christ die in vain? shall all be condemned who fulfil not the commandments? If they shall, I shall have fellows enough to go to hell with me: For you hold, that none ever fulfilled the commandments.  Stu. 
What a strange question is this, to ask whether Christ died in vain? I marvel what you think of the death and passion of Christ? It should seem, that you think that Christ therefore suffered, that men might more freely sin. This is to make Christ to approve sin, beware of this error. He suffered to a clean contrary end, that we being freed from the bondage of Satan, and the rigour of the law, might serve him in holiness and righteousness all the days of our life, 
Luk. 1.74.75. 1. Pet. 2.24.  and be not deceived in this point also. You must know that the benefit of Christ's passion doth not extend itself to all kinds of sinners; 
Psalm. 103 17.18. Rom. 8.1. Mat. 19.28  But only to such, who doing their endeavour to keep the commandments of God: Yet notwithstanding are overtaken with sin, who stumble and fall into sin, 
Pro. 24.16  but not willingly lay still in sin, and not unto those who willingly continue in sin. Nay, they who know Christ, and his doctrine, if they endeavour not to live according to his doctrine, that is, endeavour not to live godly, they are so far from enjoying the benefit of his passion concerning the life to come, as that it were better for them never to have known it, then after they have known it, 
2. Pet. 2.21  to turn from the holy commandment given them. And upon this reason our saviour said unto the man who had been diseased Eight and thirty years, 
joh. 5.14.  when he had cured him; Behold thou art made clean, sin no more, lest a worse thing happen unto thee. Signifying thereby, that the more graces we have received of the Lord, if we, (notwithstanding we have received them) continue in our wickedness, shall be guilty of greater damnation, then if we had never known or received his graces. So that you may not imagine, that Christ came to free us from the observation of the moral law, or suffered for the sins of men, that they might the more freely sin without danger of damnation. But if you will believe Christ himself: he requireth in his disciples greater and perfecter observation of the moral law, than did the Scribes and pharisees require of the jews, 
Mat. 5.17.20.  and without all question a serious endeavour to observe the moral law, is so necessary to salvation, that without it no man can be saved. For albeit, repentance and good works be not primary causes of our salvation: Yet are they secondary causes, and means of our salvation; 
Mat. 5.20. jer. 26.3. Luk. 13.3.  and as there is a necessity of the primary causes to our salvation: So also there is a necessity of the ordinary means to salvation, without which no man can be saved. Though indeed I must confess, 
Act. 3.19. joh. 5.29. Arist. phis. 8. text. 5. et Metaph. 5. c. 2. q. 9 secund. Fo●se. et 8. phis. c. 5. et Metaph. 12. Vid. Kek. f. 147. tractatu de causis.  that there is a greater necessity required of the primary causes to salvation, then of the secondary causes or means: Because God, who is the prymary cause of our salvation, is tied to no secondary means. But he may and doth save many without either actual faith or repentance, after an extraordinary manner: as the children of the faithful, dying before the years of discretion. But secondary causes have no force, without the aid of the primary cause. No man can have a true faith or repentance without the operation of the grace of God. The wicked may be sorry for that they have done; They may believe that their sins shall be forgiven; But except they have the spirit of regeneration, whereby their persons are first accepted of God, and whereby they first love God; such repentance and faith are not accepted of God.  Tra. 
You confess then, that God can and doth save many without actual faith, and actual repentance, that being so, it doth not follow, that necessarily I am a reprobate, though I die with the intent never to restore my Farm again. And surely, if there be a God, his mercy is greater than his justice, as you all teach. I will rely upon his mercy, if he call me to judgement, and not on my repentance and good works. I hope to be saved by that extraordinary way of saving whereof you speak, in which neither faith nor repentance is required. And indeed, I now remember you acknowledge that one of the thieves which were crucified with ch ist, was saved after this manner.  Stud. 
Albeit, God saveth many men after an extraordinary manner, because he is not tied to ordinary means: Yet he saveth after this manner only those, unto whom the means of ordinary salvation hath not been revealed. Many both in the time of the old law, and also since the time of the gospel have lived where they never heard of the doctrine of Moses (for some of them lived before the time of Moses) and some since the time of the passion of Christ, 
Perkins in his reformed Catholic. Point. 16.  have lived where the gospel of Christ was never preached. So that they could not have that explicitam fidem required in the word of God: 
Hooker. lib. 5. sect. 22. Luke 11.31.32.  Yet God of his goodness by extraordinary means hath wrought in their hearts, that they know and obey him: on whom, as he hath bestowed but a few Talents: so he requireth not much of them. Others there are, who are not capable of the ordinary means of salvation, by reason of the weakness of their capacity; or because they are borne deaf, and so continue to their lives end: or infants dying before the years of discretion. 
Beda. in Rom. 3.31.  Last-such as unto whom that means of salvation are not revealed, even until their dying day, so late, that albeit they knew them, yet had they not time to execute them. These and the like, God of his mere mercy saveth, without ordinary means. But if any unto whom, the ordinary means of salvation are revealed, 
Aug. lib. 80 quest. c. 76. tom. 4.  do presume to be saved, notwithstanding they neglect the ordinary means of salvation, which is a serious endeavour to live according to the commandments of God: If they continue in their sins, and do not endeavour to shake them off, but presume upon the mercy of God, that he will be merciful unto them, though they wilfully continue in their sins. They shall be sure above all other men, to be cast out of the favour of God. 
Deut. 29.19.20. jud. 4.  For he doth protest, that he will not be merciful to such men, but will bring all the curses mentioned in the law, upon them. No man can be saved but by the Passion of Christ, 
Heb. 5.9. Ambros. in Apoc. 16.15  and the benefits of his Passion extendeth itself no farther, then to those that do their endeavour to obey his doctrine. 
Caluin. in Heb. 3.13. Theophilac. Beda in Ioh 5.29.  No man can be justified without a true faith; but where there is not a readiness, and willingness to obey Christ's commandments, there is no true faith. Therefore without this willingness and endeavour, no man can be saved. Our Saviour Christ saith, speaking of the resurrection, and the general day of judgement, that all men shall rise out of their graves, 
Vide Musc. in hunc loc.  They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life: and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation. Here in this judgement, mark what kind of men are saved; 
Hieronim. Hugo Card.  Christ saith, They that have done good, although no man's good work be of that perfection, that for them, any man can be justified; 
Caluin. in 2 Cor. 5.3. Reu. 20.6. Mat. 5 20. Psalm. 103 17.18. Rom. 8.1.  yet except he have some measure of inherent righteousne, unless he hath endeavoured to do good, he shall never be clothed with the righteousness of Christ: none shall enjoy this benefit of Christ's righteousness, but only true Christians, who live not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Hence I conclude, that you cannot expect salvation after any extraordinary manner, because the means of ordinary salvation hath been revealed unto you long since; & this grace God bestoweth on no man in vain: for either the knowledge of them worketh salvation, or condemnation: nor you cannot expect salvation after the ordinary way of salvation, except you use those means ordained thereunto. Whereas you say, that the mercy of God is greater than his justice; and therefore you rely upon his mercy, & not on your works and repentance. If you respect the mercy and justice of God, as they are in himself, his mercy is no greater than his justice. For in God there is nothing greater or less, but all things in the highest perfection: But if you respect his mercy as he bestoweth it on his creatures: so his mercy is far more large than his justice, all his creatures have tasted of his mercies, but not all of his justice. The holy Angels never felt his justice. Yourself hath enjoyed many of his mercies a long time, but as yet, have felt little of his justice. Albeit his mercies in this respect be greater than his justice: yet yet doth he bestow his mercies after a different manner according to the different quality of his creatures, as also his mercies be of divers kinds, some spiritual, and some temporal. His spiritual blessings, as eternal salvation, he bestoweth only upon those, who truly believe in Christ, and consequently, seriously obey the will of God, so far forth as they know his will. But you believe not, nor endeavour to live as the word of God directeth you. And therefore although you may, and are partaker of his temporal blessings: yet you cannot be capable of his spiritual blessings, as long as you continue in this damnable estate. As for your example of the thief, who (as you say) was saved without works: First, it is not true, 
In the first Dialogue concerning good works.  he was not saved without good works, as else where I have proved Secondly, if it were so, your case and his are not alike. The means of salvation were not revealed unto him, but even on the day he was crucified: yet as soon as he was converted, he presently showed forth works. But to you the means of salvation have been known many years since, yet you contemn them. Therefore cannot you expect but the justice of God in the day of judgement, and not mercy.  Trau. 
So sir, I am then by your doctrine a reprobate, except I restore my Farm again.  Stud. 
By my doctrine? why say you so? It is the doctrine of the learnedst Divines both old and new that ever wrote. Protestants, and Papists agree in this point, & they all ground their opinion on the word of God.  Trau. 
Well sir, I am a reprobate, and I say you are a Puritan. Unlock your Study door.  Stud. 
Nay, pray be not offended with me, I have sincerely told the truth, that whilst you have time, you may repent.  Trau. 
Repent? Unlock your Study door, or else I will break it open.  Stud. 
Nay, I may not imprison you.  Trau. 
Is this your kind entertainment?  
FINIS.