〈…〉    

SEVEN DAYS CONFERENCE, BETWEEN A CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN, AND A CATHOLIC ROMAN. Concerning some Controversies of RELIGION.  
By William Cowper, B. of Galloway.  
AUG. DE CIVIT. DEI LIB 20. CAP. 19 Qui non credunt veritati, judicati seducentur, & seducti iudicabuntur.  
LONDON Printed by W. S. for john Budge, and are to be sold at his Shop at the South door of Paul's, and Britain's Burse. 1613.   

TO THE MOST SACRED, CHRISTIAN TRVELY CATHOLIC, And mighty Prince JAMES, King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, defender of the Faith, etc.  
SIR, Having procreate, not without some pain and labour, this little Treatise, when I b●gan to view it, I perceived by the first face & countenance thereof, that of it self willingly it made retreat to your Highness for protection, being in effect no other thing in regard of the matter, but a surcle of that stock, or birth of that Book, whereof your Highness is the Parent, although the manner of handling it be so base and unpolished, as that it bewrays itself altogether unlike any thing proceeding from your Highness. Yea, also far inferiors unto it (to use the words of Cl●mens, 
Strom. 5.  Alexandrinus, which he borrows from Plato, comparing the gifts of Kings with other men's) as Brass or Iron is inferior to Gold or silver. For there your Majesty hath ●reated the present controversies of Religion, with such Learning, as in a Prince may be admired, seasoned with such love and mildness of Spirit, as might move them, who are contrary minded, if they were not drunken with the Cup of the Whore of B●b●l, and so had lost judgement, and understanding, to acknowledge that it is no turbulent humour, but the power of truth, no desire of contention, but the love of all men's salvation, hath carried your Majesty unto it.  
So hath it pleased God to be favourable to this I'll, and by your Majesty to bless us, that there ne●des not now a Iusti●e, nor a Ter●ulli●n to write Apologies of our Christian faith to any Antoninus or any other such like, Impie pio Impera●ori; we have a most Christian King, a professor of the gospel with● us, a protector of us with it, a Semi-martyr, an Abimelech, A Father King, an other Solomon, a Coheleth, such a king as is a Preacher of that truth, whereof his Highness is professor, whose Palaces and Tables are (as was said of the Courts of Theodosius junior) Schools of Divinity, wherein ignorants are instructed, Apostates converted, good Christians daily confirmed, and as if this were yet too little, an open confessor before the world, a public patron of the truth by Apologies learnedly penned, whereby his Highness reacheth to these, to whom by speech he can not attain, and so makes the light of the Gospel shine to other Princes of the World, who as yet mislike it, only because they misknow it.  
Neither can it be told, whether your highness endeavour to propagate the truth of Christian Religion among such as have it not, or to conserve it where it is already embraced, be greater, the care of all the Reformed Churches in Europe, after a sort lying upon your Highness. By your Authority they are protected, by your Learning instructed, by your Pieti● confirmed, by your highness wise, godly and peaceable Council united, where the sire of unnecessary contention is subtly kindled by Satan, for disturbance of the Church, and disgrace of the Gospel. By your highness providence, happily, sp●edely and wisely it is quenched, the benefit whereof, the Churches both of France and and Flanders lately have found, and thanks God and your Majesty for it.  
And if yet any further proof of your highness most entire affection toward Christ, and his c●use be required of any man: May he not see your Majesty willingly bearing Babel's indignation for jerusalem's sake? Are not their railings, threatenings, contradictions, treasonable imaginations patiently suffered for Christ's sake? Is their not a sensible loss sustained for the Gospel's sake? Is not alliance with Laban's house, for Religion's cause preferred to the friendship of the most puissant Princes of Canaan? But yet what speak I of loss, since loss for Christ's sake can not be, not indeed, what seems a loss, sha●l be found a vantage, for Where the ways of man please the Lord, 
Gen. 14.13. Gen. 21.22.  he shall make his enemies his friends, even Mamre, Eschol, and Aner, Abimelech, and his Captain Phicol (Princes of Canaan) shall sue to Abraham for friendship, and seek to be in covenant with him, because they see that God is with him in all that he does. And if yet jeroboam with his complices will be enemies to David's Kingdom, then hath your Majesty in readiness the answer of Ab●ah unto them, 
2. Chron. 13  With you indeed is the multitude, but with it ye have the golden Calves, which you have made for your gods, and shall be your destruction, but we belong to the Lord our God, and behold this God is with us as a Captain, and his servants with sounding Trumpets to cry an Alarm against you. For God from above hath endued your Highness with his heavenly wisdom, which ●ath this annexed promise, 
Pr●u. 4.8.  Exalt her, and she shall exalt thee, she shall bring thee to honour if thou embrace her, The Lord shall be thine assurance, and he shall preserve thy soot from falling.  
And with this great benefit of pure Religion, we enjoy under your highness most happy Government, there is conjoined such a peace, as no age heretofore hath afforded, no care of any Prince could effectuate, for now by your highness authority, the most Rebellious people are made peaceable, and the Sceptre of Christ is reverenced there, where all sorts of violence, rapine, murder, villainy did reign before, so that now to your Majesty most justly belongs that p●●ise, which of old was given to Constantine, and written in his triumphal Chariot, Liberator urbis & sundator quietis. 
Nazi●n. ad 〈◊〉 ●pi●● 8  Or which Nazianzen gave to Olympius. O negotiorum arbiter, & publicarum rerum corrector & utrunque ti●i divinitus concessum qui etiam hoc pietatis praemium acce●is●i, utres tibi ex animi sententia fluant, so●usque ea assequi possis quae omnibus aliis negata sunt. Prudentiae enim & sortitudinis ductu imperium administras, quarum altera, quae facienda su●t excogitat, altera quod excogitatum est, facile exequitur, huc quod maximum est accedit manus puritas & integritas qua omnia reguntur. An arbiter and decider of difficult controversies, a corrector of the public State, and both of these ●re committed to your Highness of God, from whom your Majesty hath received also this reward of piety, that matters succeed unto your Highness according to your hearts desire, and your Highness only hath attained to do that which is denied unto others. And which yet is most of all, hereunto is joined the purity and integrity of your hands, whereby all things are ruled. Your Highness hath not lived like an Achab● to spoil any Naboth of his Vineyard, nor like a Manasseh to defile the streets of your Cities with innocent blood. Nor like an Herod, to take the Wife of an other. Your Majesty might shake the lap with Nehemiah against oppressors, in sign and token of innocency. Your Highness might cast the first stone at adulterers, & in a good conscience could make purgation with Samuel, if so it were that your Highness came to be judged of man, Whose Ox or Ass have I taken, or to whom have I done wrong, If th●re be any fault (for the best want not their own blemishes) it is upon that extremity, which is nearest to virtue: Namely, in too great mercy and clemency, which of old was noted for an infirmity in good Theodosius, Quod ex mansuetudine in nimiam lenitatem declinaverït, yet even of this will I say with Nazian. Etiam haec est dei humanitas & Clementia. This also is a resemblance of the clemency of God, whose deputy on earth your Highness are, for he is gracious, slow to wrath, long suffering and ready to forgive. Many a time he bends his bow to shoot at the wicked, the arrows of his anger, but is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Pisidae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  slow and loath to let them go: Yea, oftimes he shoots & purposely misseth his mark, sparing yet for a time: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, his warnings are many, but where they work not, he strikes at length, and no more but once. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Thus even the Lord whose mercy is marvelous, means him to judgement▪ where mercy is abused: It is no piety but superstition to spare, when time is to strike. And it is a cruel clemency, which is declared upon one with the destruction of many. The Pillars which uphold a Kingdom, are Mercy and justice, since by them Kings are conserved, Your Highness out of your rare wisdom, will have a care to conserve them both, that neither Mercy make prejudice to justice, nor justice again take away the praise of Mercy.  
But to return, as S●desprima & vita ima, are most unseemly; so is the dignity doubled, where the preferment is beautified with piety: and herein also hath the Lord magnified his mercy toward your Majesty, that as by an high calling he hath exalted your Highness a Head & Ruler over this Mighty people, so hath he made your Highness no less eminent by communication of his grace, than your Majesty is by the Honour of the place, living in the eyes of all men a pattern of Virtue, yea an image of the heavenly King, walking so among the evil that you are not infected with their vice, and so with the good that the best are made better by your example. God make us wise to know what we have, for because the Lord hath loved his people, therefore hath he set such a King over them, to rule them with equity and righteousness. The Lord make us thankful for it, and long may your Highness live & reign a happy king of many blessings to your people, Amen.  
Your majesties most humble Subject, and daily Orator, WILLIAM COWPER B. of Galloway.   

The Contents of the seven days Conference.  

The I. days Conference.  
Concerning Antiquity in Gen●rall.   

The II. Day.  
Concerning the Antiquity of the Church of Scotland, and how the Church of Rome in her best estate was but a sister, and not a mother Church unto it.   

The III. Day.  
Concerning the Apostasy of the Church of Rome, and how sh●e is now become that mother of Whoredoms, Revel.   

The FOUR Day.  
Wherein is declared that Rome is the seat of Antichrist.   

The V. Day.  
Wherein the common question of the Adversaries is answered: Where was your Church before Luther?   

The VI Day.  
Wherein an other Question commonly objected by the Aduers●r●es is answered: Seeing you cannot deny tha● your fathers were Papists, what think you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.   

The VII. Day.  
Wherein the order observed in the Church of Scotland is declared to be conform to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles, & and practised in the Primitive Church.    

SEVEN DAYS CONFERENCE. BETWEEN A Catholic CHRISTIAN, and a Catholic ROMAN.  C. 
SIR, you are welcome home from Italy.  R. 
I thank you heartielie good Countryman.  C. 
Tell me I pray you how it goes with you, are you sound both in body and in mind?  R. 
Why, what mean you by that?  C. 
Because many traveled in these parts where you have been having returned worse than they went a field.  R. 
Wherein worse?  C. 
With the botch of Egypt in their body, the just plague of God for corporal whoredom; and the leprosy of Babel in their souls, wherewith God also punisheth them who love not Zions beauty, and delight not in the light of the Gospel.  R. 
But I was neither in Egypt nor in Babel.  C. 
How so, was you not in Rome, and other parts under the Pope's Dominions?  R. 
Yea that I was.  C. 
Then was you both in Egypt and Babel.  B. 
I understand not your mystical Theology.  C. 
Neither can ye so long as you are in the mist, and have your mind covered with a vail.  R. 
You speak your pleasure there, for I see all is well as yourself.  C. 
I would you did, for so you might easily see that Rome is Spiritual Egypt, wherein the light of God is obscured: and Babel, wherein is a fearful captivity of God's people, and such a horrible confusion of languages, that when the Builder speaks, the people understands not what he says: yea it is Sodom, which for her vile abominations will shortly be burnt with fire, and brought to utter desolation never to be repaired again.  R. 
Let me alone, I see you are still in your old humour, and it marvels me much, that so many in this Land being converted to the bosom of the mother Church of Rome, you should still continue in this new Heretical opinion.  C. 
O now I see the bile of Babel upon you: you will call her a mother Church whom God calls a mother of Whoredoms, and you charge us with novelty, and heresy; but we will prove by God's grace, what you call heresy, and novelty is verity and antiquity.  R. 
Antiquity say you, fie, speak never of it: for your eldest Doctors are Luther, and Calvin.  C. 
Nay by your leave (Sir) we have neither our faith from Luther, nor from Calvin: but answer you as the Apostle Saint Paul answered his adversaries, when they charged him with the like crimes that you charge us with, and I pray you mark his Apology: 
Act. 24.14.  I confess that after the way which they call Heresy, so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers.  R. 
What ever Saint Paul speaks, I would not have you speaking of Fathers, seeing you have forsaken the Religion of your Fathers.  C. 
You deceive yourself if you think we will not stand to the Religion of our Fathers.  R. 
Ah, but your Fathers were Papists.  C. 
Nay but our Fathers were Protestants.  R. 
Now in good faith you move me to laughter.  C. 
You may laugh as you list, but have no cause.  R. 
Was not your Father, and Grandfather, and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists?  C. 
What of that? they who in regard of time and truth were long before them, and should be followed as Fathers to us and them both, were Protestants.  R. 
That is but a shift of your own.  C. 
It is no shift, it is a truth; and you shall see it yourself if you will consider who were Paul's Fathers, whom he says he followed in the worshipping of God.  R. 
What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell, but I see they have been Israelites of the Tribe of Benjamin.  C. 
We have not that to stand upon, what they were for their persons, or names either, but what was their Religion: remember you not that he says himself, he was brought up at the feet of Gamali●l?  R. 
Yea I do.  C. 
Tell me now of what Religion was Gamali●l?  R. 
I see he hath been a Pharisee.  C. 
And think you that Saint Paul when he made his Apology, worshipped God after the manner of Pharisees?  R. 
I think it not.  C. 
How then says he, that he worshipped God after the manner of his Fathers, seeing his Fathers were Pharesies?  R. 
I think he means not of these fathers, who lived last before him, but transcending them he passes up to his elder fathers Abraham, Isaac, jacob.  C. 
Was he not then wrongfully accused of novelty, as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers, because he forsook the Religion of such Fathers as lived last before him?  R. 
I think so indeed: His Apology clears him sufficiently both of heresy and novelty, which his adversaries would have imputed to him.  C. 
Now (Sir) I have you where I would: why should not the like Apology clear us in the like case: for albeit we have forsaken the heresies of Papistry maintained by them, that lived last before us, yet do we worship the Lord our God, as these fathers did, whom justin Martyr call●s, Patres Patrum, & whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoever.  R. 
That cannot be, seeing it is known, it is not threescore years since your Religion came into this Country.  C. 
No (Sir) I will make known to you, that it is 1500 years since this same Religion preached and professed now, was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers. The first Religion that ever we had was gentilism, our fathers worshipped Diana, the Sun, the Moon, the Stars.  R. 
That was a pitiful blindness.  C. 
So it was indeed: but in the first hundredth year we embraced Christianity, and eight hundredth year after Christ, we were infected with Papistry, and now again hath God called us by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity, whereby we worship the Father in his son according to his word, and no other way.  R. 
You speak fair enough to it, be as it will; but if it be true that you say, then would you be in communion with the Catholic Church.  C. 
And so thanks to God we are, rejoicing as I said unto you, that the Lord by his Gospel hath called us to be Christian Catholics.  R. 
That is also● a new style of your own, that you will be called Christian Catholics.  C. 
If you were acquainted with antiquity, you would not call it new, with many such novelties you charge us, which are indeed ancient truths: it is eleven hundredth years since in the seventh Council of Carthage, professors of the Gospel were called Catholic Christians.  R. 
But to let the style pass, how can you say, you are in communion with the Catholic Church, seeing you have made separations from the Roman Church, and refuse to be styled Roman Catholics?  C. 
The Roman Church in her best estate was never more but a member of the Catholic Church, and there is no more reason to call the Roman church the Catholic Church, nor to say, that Rome is all Italy, or Pa●●s is all France: but now seeing the Ro●an Church hath played the Whore, made a shameful Apostasy from her first estate, we have done no wrong in separating from her: but for our warrant have Gods own Proclamation commanding us to do so.  R. 
Where have you that Proclamation?  C. 
There it is, Come out of Babel my people.  R. 
But no word is there of Rome  C. 
I shall prove to you that this Babel is Rome, and your own Doctors cannot deny it.  R. 
If you make all good you have said, I will say no more, but there is many one beguiled.  C. 
If you will hear me by God's grace I shall make it good.  R. 
I will not refuse to hear you, and I trust also to answer you.  C. 
It is not me you shall hear, but the voice of the Gospel, which if it were heard at Rome, I am of that mind, the Pope's kingdom should not long continue.  R. 
It will be hard for you to get hearing there.  C. 
And why? since Sodomites there have their brothels, and jews have their Synagogues, wherein they curse Christ, why may not Protestants be tolerated to have a Church wherein to preach?  R. 
Good sooth they love you worse than any of them.  
I think it true; for on● Devil can dwell well enough with an other, yea a legion of them in one man, but none of them will give place to Christ. But tell me how long, God willing, mind you to stay in this town?  R. 
I hope to be in it all this week.  C. 
Then I pray you, let us spare every day one hour or two for conference, and I will come to you to your own chamber.  R. 
Agreed am I, and let our conference to morrow continue about antiquity, for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it.  C. 
Well. let it be so.  

THE FIRST days CONFERENCE. Concerning Antiquity in General.  
R. WElcome (Sir) I see you are a true man, and keep promise.  C. 
What I am not in good fain would I be.  R. 
Think you not best we begin where we left yesternight?  C. 
Yea indeed.  R. 
What say you then of Antiquity? will you not grant that to be the true Church which hath the most ancient Doctrine?  C. 
That is a thing out of all question; the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace, and believe to be most true.  R. 
You will mire yourself incontinent, for these which ye call corruptions in the Church of Rome, some of them will be found a thousand years old.  C. 
What is that to the matter? Seeing the truth whereby we condemn these corruptions will be found elder than they, and we, to speak with Vincentius, will ever prefer the old Faith to new unfaithfulness: for if you think this a good Argument: Such a doctrine or ceremony should be received, because it is one thousand and two hundred years old, then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must be received for a truth, because they were taught by him one thousand and six hundred years since.  R. 
But said you not even now, you would acknowledge that to be most true which is most ancient?  C. 
I say that same yet; And that you may conceive it the better, I pray you consider that truth and error, suppose they came not of the same parents, yet in regard of time they are like two twins, but the vantage of time that is, truth hath it, suppose very little.  R. 
I pray you let me hear that at more length, for I see it will greatly help to clear this point.  C. 
Will you go up to the Church in Paradise, and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was God's voice: For in the first two Chapters of Genesis, you will hear nothing but Deus dixit, God said: but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in, Et Serpens dixit, and the Serpent said.  R. 
I see that clearly.  C. 
And I am glad you do so: But I pray you consider, will any man be so mad as to think that Satan's lies shall be received for a truth, because they are now near six thousand years old?  R. 
It were no reason indeed, because albeit his lies ●ee old, yet (as you have said) there is a Truth elder.  C. 
I pray you remember that, that it may confirm you against the craft of Satan, when he would cover error with a show of Antiquity.  R. 
I hope to do so.  C. 
Now will ye come down again to the days of Christ jesus; may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles, Satan also sent out his false Apostles▪ and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospel, Simon Magus is stirred up to Preach heresies?  R. 
I see that also.  C. 
Then let us agree in this, since Truth is to be sought from our father's according as we are commanded, Inquire for the good and old way; we will go seek it from our most ancient fathers.  R. 
Truly it carries with it I think a reason, that we should not be moved with the opinion of any father, where they vary from the doctrine of the first fathers.  C. 
You▪ speak now as you should, and as before I showed you was the mind of that ancient father justine Martyr: 
Quest. 119  when it was objected to him, such a father thought such a thing, he answered, Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit: And herein to confirm you, if controversies of Religion were decided, as our Saviour decided the question of Polygamy, the debate between us and the Romish Church were soon ended.  R. 
How did Christ resolve that controversy of Polygamy?  C. 
By this rule, It was not so from the beginning: Leaving this to us as a maxim in Religion, and a most sure rule whereby to try truth from falsehood, What hath not be●ne from the beginning, let it be rejected as a novelty. And herein the ancient fathers agree with us. Be ye sollowers of me (saith the Apostle) as I am of Christ: if I, or an Angel, etc. Mihi antiquitas Iesi● Christus est, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremissibilis interitus. Ignat. Epist. ad Philad▪  
Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putaverit, sed quid, qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit. Cypri. lib. 2. Epist. 3.  
Neque enim hominis consue●udinem, sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet. Ibid.  
Non est de consuetudine praescribendum, sed ratione vincendum. Ad Quintinum.  
Obstinatio est, & praesumptio humanam traditionem divinae dispositioni antepone●e, nec animadvertere ●ndignaeri, & irasci deum; quoties divina praecepta soluit, & praeterit humana traditio. Ad Pompeium.  
Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris. Ibid.  
Si ad divinae traditionis caput, & originem revertamur, cessat error humanus. Ibid  
Frustrà quidam, quiratione vincuntur, consuetudinem nòbis opponunt, q●asi con●uetudo sit mator ver●●●●. ●d ●uba●anum.  
Nec 〈◊〉, n●c m●iorum erro● seq●●●●●, e●●, sed au●horitas Script●r●r●●, & ●●i docem is imper●●●m: 〈◊〉 ●●●iaei po●● Baalim abieruns quos ●idicerunt a patribus. Hie●on. in lerem. cap. 9  
Omnes h●retici aetati Eccle●ie univer sa●is comparati, minores, tempore congrue vocantur: quia ipsi ab eâ, non autem ipsa egressa est ●b illis. Greg. in job. lib. 10. Sect. 37.  
Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit, postremò similitudo succedit: ita prior veritas quam haeresis. Tertul. praescrip. adversus haeret.  R. 
But what makes these against the Church of Rome?  C. 
Yea, very much, for all these novelties which she hath invented, and intruded into the Church, she colour's them with the shadow of ancient custom, and so very craftily under the name of Antiquity, fights against Antiquity.  R. 
It is not enough to affirm that, unless ye qualify it.  C. 
I will make it clear to you, if first ye hear a notable testimony o● Vincentius to this same purpose. 
Cap. 10.   R. 
What says he?  C. 
It is a property of Christian modesty not to deliver their own things to the after-commers, but to keep things received from their fore-beers.  R. 
Very well; that place makes ●gainst you who will not keep the Religion of your fore-beers.  C. 
It makes not against us, but against the Church of Rome, who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our fore●eer● also, as the remnant of his words will declare unto you.  R. 
Read them out then.  C. 
He is expounding here he Apostles words: If I, or an Angel from heaven should bring to you another doctrine, then that which ye have received, let him be accursed.  R. 
What says he of it?  C. 
These are his words: If Peter, if Andrew, if john, yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way than is delivered in the Gospel, let them be accursed: To Preach unto Christian Catholics, besides ●hat which we have received, was never, is never, shall never be lawful.  R. 
Let it be so, the Church of Rome hath delivered no doctrine but that she hath received.  C. 
Yes, but she hath; and now once for all, I will give you amongst many, one clear example of it. In the thirteenth Session of the Council of Constance, as is Recorded by Carranza one of your own, and Registered in your Canon Law, there is an Act made of this tenor. Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub utraque specie, tamen haec consuetudo ad evitandum aliqua pericula, & scandala, est rationa●iliter introducta, quòd a conficientibus sub utraque specie, a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur. Albeit in the Primitive Church, this Sacrament was received of the faithful under both the kinds, yet to eschew some perils and offences, this custom now with very good reason is brought in, that the Priest should receive it under both the kinds, but the people should receive the bread only, and not the cup. What think ye now of this place? Hath not the Church of Rome here delivered a Doctrine which she hath not received? Is there not here a manifest changing of Christ's ordinance, and by their own confession a plain departing from Antiquity? What think you of this one instance?  R. 
I will advise upon it.  C. 
Do so, but I pray you fight not against the clear light; and remember that all be it the Doctors of your Church pretend always Antiquity, Antiquity; the ●athers, the fathers; yet this one instance among a hundredth, proves them to be father's o● novelties: what say ye? Tell me, like ye to hear any more of Vincentius?  R. 
I am content, but let me know ●irst what writer he is, and whose Translation is that.  C. 
He was a Frenchman, he writ this Treatise in the five hundredth year of Christ, and here it is Translated by Ninian Winzet, a masspriest of the Church of Rome, which ye cannot refuse.  R. 
Read on, what says he further?  C. 
There is a command given to Timothy, Depos●um serva, which in all good reason should bind his successors: Thus he expounds it: Keep that which is committed to thee, not that which is invented by thee: which thou hast received, not which thou hast imagined: wherein thou art no Author, inventor, sorger, but a keeper; not a Lawmaker but a Lawkeeper; not a guide, but a follower: save that which is given thee, save the talon of Catholic faith unbroken, uncorrupt: what thou hast received, render it again, if thou hast received Gold, render Gold again; slip not in one thing in stead of an other, for Gold lay not down lead, nor brass.  R. 
I hear all that, and I think he writes like a sound Divine.  C. 
Then take heed●; the Apostle protests he delivered that to the Corinthians, which he had received from the LORD JESUS.  R. 
I know that.  C. 
He commanded Timothy, and all others his successors in the work of the ministery to do the like.  R. 
And good reason so they should.  C. 
Then there is the point; How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this liberty to do otherwise?  R. 
Wherein do they otherwise?  C. 
Have you forgot so soon? Saint Paul delivered to the people as well the Cup as the Bread, because he received it from Christ jesus: how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people?  R. 
Why? May not the Church make Laws?  C. 
No such Laws as derogate to Christ's Laws, for in that sense you heard Vincentius deny that they are Lawmakers, but Law-keepers: I pray you give place to the truth, and consider how little cause they have to brag of Antiquity, who dare make the like of that; Albeit Christ and his Apostles, and the Primitive Church did this, yet we for good causes will do otherways.  R. 
Always that is but one ●oint,  C. 
But seeing you cannot deny but they have broken, and corrupted the ancient Catholic faith in one point, you have the less cause to believe or defend them in the rest, unless you will incur God's curse threatened on them that pares or adds to his word.  R. 
The Lord save me from his curse.  C. 
Amen, but pray first that the Lord would save you from the sin that deserves his curse.  R. 
God grant it.  C. 
And so I wish from my heart it may be: But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guilty of sacrilegious paring, so in both you are guilty of sacrilegious adding and changing: and so cannot ●schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is.  R. 
How So?  C. 
As ye have taken Wine from the Bread, so ye have added Water to the Wine, which is a new invention and forgery, albeit your Doctors to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first, yet it is certain, it was not in Christ's institution, and by your own confessions was brought in many years after Christ, and so should be rejected as a novelty.  R. 
That is but a small thing, and there may be many reasons to excuse it.  C. 
No: not one; Let no man be wiser then God. Who dare add to the ordinance of Christ? But you have done worse in Baptism adding spital, Oil, and Salt to the element of Water: was this done by Christ or his Apostles? You father the Oil upon Silvester, but confess it was not used in the Church in Baptism before him, and so it is an other ancient novelty.  R. 
It may be they have thought good to use these for reasons and respects which I know not; but this pertains not to the substance of Baptism, and can not annul it.  C. 
I grant they do not annul Baptism, yet are they inexcusable, who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ: Are not his Sacraments the Seals of his covenant?  R. 
I confess they are.  C. 
Why then, since it is treason to pair, or add any thing to the form of the Prince's Signet, is it not Sacrilegious boldness to pair or add to Christ's Sacrament? But lest you should think the controversy only to be about these things, you shall know that, except the Article of the Trinity, the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith uncorrupted, so that it is most certain, This Church of Rome with the doctrine, and jurisdiction now maintained by her, was not in the Primitive Church.  R. 
O but I will tell you what I once heard concerning that matter, from one of their Doctors: That there is a great difference between a Church in her infancy, and her older and riper age: For as it grows in age, so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancy thereof.  C. 
Now I see you speak from such knowledge, as the great labours of the Jesuits works in the hearts of their captives, and because it is your last and greatest defence, I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius, which you will like better than mine, that this makes nothing for you.  R. 
Come on let us see; what says Vincentius?  C. 
He grants, There should be an increase in Faith, but not a change of Faith.  R. 
That is a strange distinction, and yet so honest, that in truth I dare not gainsay it.  C. 
Hear him then; he expounds the two parts of his distinction: To increase (saith he) is when a thing biding in itself is more amplified: To change, is when a thing going out of itself is translated & turned into an other. To make this clear, he illustrates it by a proper similitude: Let (says he) the Religion of souls follow the nature of bodies, which albe●t in process of years they grow, yet they remain the same: the same members, the same joints are in Children which are in Men, though in the one stronger and greater, in the other smaller and weaker: but if the shape be turned in any form not of the own kind, or any thing be eked to the number of the members, or taken from the same, then either the body perisheth, or becomes monstrous, or at the least becomes weak. So in Religion, if we shall begin to mix novelty with Antiquity, we shall make the Church a brothel of filthy and abominable errors, which before was a Temple of chaste and undefiled verity, where as the Church of Christ should be a diligent keeper of the doctrine delivered to it, changing nothing, diminishing nothing, adding nothing. Now these are the words of Vincentius, and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gainsay them.  R. 
In truth it is a pretty discourse, and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth.  C. 
Advise you th●n yet, what ye will say for the Church of Rome, since it can not be denied they have changed, diminished, and added to the ancient Catholic faith: Some ceremonies and opinions they have which Antiquity knew not, & some the ancient Church had, which they have pared away, and in a word have so change, that in Rome is nothing ancient but the name.  R. 
That seems very hard: For, though in some ceremonies there be adding, paring, and changing, yet I can not think it is in substance.  C. 
You are far deceived, for they have made a change in the substance.  R. 
Wherein?  C. 
In the main point of salvation, as now among many I will show you by this one. What Divinity is this, to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heaven by an other blood than Christ's blood?  R. 
O that can not be.  C. 
Nay marvel not, there is the Prayer of their own Mass book. 
Tu per Thomae sanguinem, quem ille pro te pendit, fac nos christ scandere, quò Thomas ascendit.   R. 
I have not he●rd of that, for my own part I would be loath to change the blood of the covenant, or to disgrace it so far as to join any other with it.  C. 
The more wise are you, for it is by Christ's blood Only, that reconciliation is made. But what think ye of confidence, should we put confidence in any but in God?  R. 
No truly.  C. 
What a Prayer is this then? 
Inua ergo omnes gentes  
In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile.   
And is not Prayer think you and Invocation, a special point of God's service?  R. 
So it is.  C. 
Why then is it given to Saints; and that Psalter which contains Prayers & praises to God, all turned over to the Virgin Marie? Should men's traditions, to whom God by his heavenly oracle hath not borne testimony, be received, Pari pietatis affectu & reverentiâ, with like devotion and reverence, as the word of God?  R. 
Who says that?  C. 
The Council of Trent. 
Dist. 19 ca Si Rom●norum & in Canonici●.  Should the four Counsels be received as the four Evangelists, or should the Canon Law and decretal Epistles be received as Canonical Scripture?  R. 
I know not what that is.  C. 
Then I will tell you: Twelve hundredth years after Christ, Gratian a Benedictine Monk, gathered together the sentences of Counsels, Fathers, and Popes, concerning sundry matters of Religion, and set it forth, which is commonly called Decretum; and after him certain Popes, as Gregory the ninth, Boniface the eight, Clemens the fifth, john the twenty two, following the example of Gratian, have gathered the like: These are called Decretals, and Extravagants added to Decretum; all of them make up the Canon law, which now must be equalled with the word, and all to be received, as if Peter his own mouth had pronounced them. Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius, to mix novelty with Antiquity; What say you to it?  R. 
In truth I can not judge of that which I know not.  C. 
I will give you but one Decrete of this law, and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth, that by it you may judge of the rest. 
Caus. 26. quaest. 2. & Caus. 31. qu●st. 1.  Secundam accipere uxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est; secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est. Second marriage according to the Apostles precept is lawful, but according to the truth of reason is plain fornication. I am not now to dispute whether Churchmen may Marry or not: 
Causa. 26. Quest. 2.  themselves grant it is not forbidden, neither by Legal, nor Apostolical authority, yet they will forbid it. But what Divinity is this? According to the Apostles precept, it is lawful to Marry, but according to truth and reason it is Whoredom, that is as they would say, according to the word of God in the Bible it is true, but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelve hundredth years after Christ it is false. Did the Apostle give any precept without reason or truth? How dare they call that unlawful, which the Apostle calls lawful: W●e be to them who call good evil. You hold silence at these things and no marvel, for I think no honest man can approve them. But to return to things of great importance, I assure you the only question and controversy in Religion this day may be taken up in this question: Is jesus the Son of Mary the Christ? Or as the Baptist takes it up, Art thou he who is come, or shall we look for an other?  R. 
I think no man will deny that.  C. 
Yea the Turk, and pagan say, such Christ as Christians believe is neither come, nor will come: the jews say he is not come, but he will come: The Catholic Roman in word confesseth him, but in deed denies him: Quem praedicant impugnant, both in his Person and Offices.  R. 
That is a strange assertion, & such as I have not heard.  C. 
It is strange indeed, and I would we had no cause to charge them with it, but because it is the most weighty point whereof yet w● have spoken, we will refer it to be handled in a meeter time.  R. 
I am content, providing you forget not to make that good which you have said.  C. 
If I forget, I pray remember me: And now this Dispute about Antiquity, I conclude with IGNATIUS: Mihi antiquitas est jesus Christus, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremissibilis interitus. Epist. ad Philadelphos. My Antiquity is jesus Christ; to disobey him is manifest and remediless destruction: and with that which A●gustine said to the Pelagians: Quia isti disserunt, 
De verb. Apost ser. 14.  & disputant nescio quas impias novitates, etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nowm dicamus. Because these f●llowes maintain certain impious novelties, they also go about to charge us, as if we did teach any new thing. But of this if you please you shall hear more.  R. 
It pleaseth me very well, & I shall attend your coming if you may at seven hours.  C. 
Let it be so.   

THE SECOND days CONFERENCE. Concerning the Antiquity of the Church of SCOTLAND, and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister, & not a mother Church unto it.  C. 
WHat say you to day (Sir) have you considered the points of our last conference?  R. 
Yea I have been (as I may) thinking upon them.  C. 
What? Is not your heart moved to come to us?  R. 
I find it moved, but not removed from the Church of Rome.  C. 
Tell me (I pray you) what is that which holds you from us?  R. 
To be plain with you, since the Church of Rome is your mother Church, you can with no good conscience forsake her.  C. 
If that be all your scruple, I hope to resolve you: for this day by God's grace I will show that we of this Church of Scotland had never our faith from the Church of Rome; yea that in her best estate she was no more but a sister Church unto us. The next day God willing I will show you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now, not like that Church of old, which the Apostle commended, and is not only a Whore herself, but the mother of whoredoms.  R. 
You have taken much in hand.  C. 
No more than by God's grace I hope to qualify, if you will with patience hear me, and interrupt me not.  R. 
Speak as long as you please, I shall hear you.  C. 
No (Sir) I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words, but shall be very well content, when you hear any point wherein weight is, that you warn me to clear it.  R. 
Well, I shall do so God willing.  C. 
Then first I will say, Rome hath been no mother Church, neither to the Churches of Asia: these were planted by Apostles and Apostolic men; Nor yet to the Churches of A●ricke: Christianity was first conveyed to them by Mark the Evangelist, and the Eunuch of Ethiopia, whom Philip baptized: And I can let you see (but that I shall digress over far) that five hundredth years after Christ the Churches of Africa would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superior.  R. 
Our question is not now concerning them: for I know the Church of Rome received her faith from the Churches of Asia, and they of Asia received it not from the Church of Rome. And as to them of Africa, whatsoever is disputable, there we leave it as not pertaining to our present puropse.  C. 
Oh good Sir, you will grant then that the Church of Rome is far posterior to the Churches of A●ia, and, if it be compared with them, is but a daughter Church.  R. 
That I can not deny: But the Churches of Europe, and specially these of the west parts were first converted to Christ by the Church of Rome.  C. 
No (Sir) ye are deceived in that also, and this is the point wherein I am to contradict you.  R. 
I am sure you will not contradict me, without some warrant.  C. 
That were no reason: I will let you see that the most famous Churches of Europe (as their Records testify) had not their faith from the Church of Rome, and then I will come to our own.  R. 
I think long to hear that.  C. 
And I will delay you no longer. In the Council of Trent, there was a great question between the French and Spanish Prelates, about the first place: The greatest Argument that any of them used, was from the Antiquity of their Christianity, which none of them alleged, they had from the Church of Rome, albeit at that time both of them sought the Pope's favour.  R. 
From whence got they it then, if they got it not from Rome?  C. 
The Spaniards alleged, they were made Christians by Saint james, who after he had Preached the Gospel in Spain, returned to Palestina, and was precedent of that famous Council holden at jerusalem, Act. 15 then being Martyred, his bones were brought to Compostella, and there buried. The French replied that their narration was fabulous, and that it is more likely, if any Apostle came to Spain, he came rather by land to France, and so taught them by the way, than otherwise by Sea: And if any credit might be given to such traditions, they could also with more probability allege that Lazarus, and Nathaniel taught the Gospel among them▪ & this at that time they spoke for themselves. But out of more certain Story this might be said also for them, th●t Philip Preached the Gospel in France: CRESCENS also Paul's Disciple, for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITUS is gone to Dalmatia, and Cresc●ns to Galatia: Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calls it Gallia. Besides him Trophymus, 
Cent. 2. c. 2.  another of Paul's Disciples taught at Orleans: Photinus again, a very worthy man, and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospel at Lions. German was first converted by Lucius of Cyrene, 
Aventinus in Annal. Boiorum.  Paul's kinsman and companion. Yea the Churches of Italy will not be found to have the Church of Rome for their Mother Church, for why Barnab●s first Preached the Gospel at Milan, as testifieth Sabellicus, 
Sabel. Enn●a●. 7. li. 4.  and Apollinaris taught at Ravenna. But to come to the Church of Rome, tell me, who did first convert the Romans to the Christian faith?  R. 
Who but Saint Peter!  C. 
I will not now contend with you about that matter though it be very disputable, Whether Peter was at Rome or not; and your own man Clemens, 
Clem. lib. 1. Recognitionum  and Dorotheus also affirm, that Barnabas first taught the Gospel at Rome: But if Peter came to Rome, what time came he to it?  R. 
I cannot well remember.  C. 
I will help you: 
Lib. 3. Cap. 1. & 3.  Irenaeus says, S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his evangel, in the third year of Cai●s, & forty one after Christ. As for Saint Paul he wrote not his Epistle to Rome, till the thirteenth year of ● Claudius', 
Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10.  and fifty five years after Christ, and himself came not to Rome till the fifty eight year after Christ.  R. 
What would you make of all that?  C. 
Either ye must grant the Church of Rome was not converted by Saint Peter, or then there was no Church there before the forty one year after our Lord, at which time Saint Peter came to it.  R. 
Let it be so.  C. 
Then I pray you consider, that the Church of this Land, being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome, there is no reason they should bear us down with the shadow of their Antiquity, nor insult over us, as if they were a mother Church to us, seeing it pleased God to convert us to the Christian faith, almost as soon as themselves, and that not by them but by others whom he sent among us.  R. 
But ye have not made that clear as yet.  C. 
What I have not, I shall by God's grace. In the second year of Claudi●s, and forty four years after Christ, Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Britain, and, Preached the Gospel: This was but three years after Simon Peter came to Rome.  R. 
How will you prove that?  C. 
My proofs are; Dorotheus in his Synopsis: Simon Zelotes peragratâ Mauritaniâ, & Aphrorum regione, Christ●m praedicavit tandem in Britannia, ubi crucifixus, occïsus, & sepultus est. Doroth. Again, Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. says that Simon Zelotes having Preached to many Countries, at length evangelii doctrinam ad occidentalem Oceanum insulasque Britannica● perfert, and both of them are cited by your late Cardinal, writer of the History, Baronius.  R. 
Is that all you have for you?  C. 
No: I have more yet; for joseph of Arimathea, 
Baron. annal.  about the year of our Lord fifty three, came also to Britain, and taught the Gospel: witnesses hereof are Balaeus, Flemingus, Capgraws, Scropus, Polidorus Virgilius; and as many think, he was sent by Philip out of France over to Britain. Moreover Theodoret witnesseth, that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliverance out of Prison under Nero, 
Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius.  came into Britain, and taught the Gospel. And the same also is testified by Sophronius Patriarch of jerusalem.  R. 
I remember indeed that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to have come to Spain.  C. 
And you may the more easily think he came to Britain in like manner, seeing so famous an Author affirms it: and you shall like it the better if you consider the matter he hath in hand, when he makes mention of the conversion of Britain.  R. 
I pray you let me hear it.  C. 
The Grecians alleged that our first propagators of the evangel were base men, not comparable for wisdom and Learning to their lawgivers, Lycurgus, Solon, and the rest: This Father replied that the laws of their lawgivers were only received in Graecia, but that our first Preachers of the Gospel had in short time made the most famous Countries, and Kingdoms of the World to embrace it. An evident argument of a divine power assisting them: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, etc. for says he our Fithers, and Publicans, and that Tent maker, or Cutter of Leather (so he calls Saint Paul) hath not only made the Romans, and these who live under their Empire to embrace the Christian faith, but also th● Scythians, Sauromatans, Indians, Ethiopians, Persians, Britan's, Germans, and in a word hath induced all Nations, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to receive the Laws of CHRIST crucified. What think you of this testimony?  R. 
Truly I am glad to hear that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercy on this Country of ours, to communicate to them the grace of the Gospel.  C. 
You shall yet hear more; that Aristobolus, mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle, and discharged the Office of a Bishop, as witnesseth the forenamed Dorotheus. May you not see we are not inferior to any Christian Country in this part of the World, and that we have as many clear witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith, as any nation of Europe hath for them?  R. 
Indeed I see you have more than I would have believed, if their authority be good enough.  C. 
What need you doubt of their authority? for if testimonies of Fathers of the Primitive Church be good to prove the Antiquity of any Church in Europe, why should their authority be called in doubt when they speak for our Church?  R. 
But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first, who sent some of their Clergy to this Isle to convert it to the faith.  C. 
You may see the contrary, by that which I have said already; and I will yet make it more clear to you. The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christian faith, was Lucius, in the y●are of our LORD one hundredth twenty and four. In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Christian.  R. 
That is true; but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to send him some teachers to instruct him in the Christian faith and (as the Chronicle records) he sent into Britain, Damianus, ●nd Fugatianus.  C. 
What will you gather of that?  R. 
That this I'll was converted by such teachers as the Bishop of Rome sent into it.  C. 
How can you say that? seeing many in the Kingdoms were converted before the Kings were converted, & your own Baronius cannot deny it; these are his words: Cum diu alioqui any evangelium Christi illu● perlatum fuisset, ut testatur Gilda sapiens: that long before those men Damianus, and Fuga●ianus came here, the Gospel was here, as witnesseth Gilda the wise: Seing your own Writers are forced to confess it, I marvel with what face can any man say, that the Gospel came to us from Rome.  R. 
All that you have yet said makes something for the Church of England; nothing for the Church of Scotland.  C. 
W● inhabit both one Isle; and what good or evil specially in Religion hath come to the one, hath been fou●d by manifold experiences easily derived to the other.  R. 
But what think you; whether came the light of the Gospel first to you or to them?  C. 
That is a jesuitical Policy to divide them whom GOD hath coupled, and to cause us to contend together in that, wherein we agree jointly to contend with the Church of Rome: what part of the Isle God did first illuminate with his light is nothing to the matter: If it was their glory to have the Sun of righteousness first shining on them, we envy it not; this is sufficient: the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome, and neither they nor we had our faith from Rome; and if ●ou, or any for you will call in doubt the antiquity of the Church of England, I warrant you, you shall find a number both of Learned and Grave Divines (wherein they are not inferior to any Church in Europe) to answer for themselves. And if yet you crave further light concerning the antiquity of our Church, I will show you that which may content you if you be reasonable.  R. 
Let me hear what is that.  C. 
Mark me this testimony of Tertullian who lived in the two hundredth year of Christ: 
Adu●rsus I●daeos. cap. 7.8.  Britannorumloca Romanismaccessa Christo subdita sunt. Now what part of Britain he means your own Cardinal Ba●onius will declare unto you: for when he hath said, magnam B●itanni●e partem fuisse liberam, than he proves it by the wall built so often by Victo●ine, by Adri●n; as he cities ex A●lio Spartianom Adriano, and an other ce●●●tius murus built by Antonin●s Pius; as he cities out of julius Capitolinus in Pio. By this saith he, it is evident that Britannia was divided by a wall; 
●aron. annal. anno Christi 183 Sect. 6.  that part within the w●ll was possessed by Romans, the other without Britanni liberè possiderunt, qui saepe muros illos egres● Romanos praelijs provocarun●: What say ye now of these testimonies?  R. 
I think indeed that is a great testimony for the antiquity of your Church.  C. 
So you may: for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos, 
Cen●ur. ●. cap. 2. Ce●t. 3. cap. 3.  calls Scottish men the more ancient Christians. You will make then no more contradiction, but that these testimonies which record the conversion of Britain, belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle?  R. 
Your former argument brought out of Tertullian, and expounded by Baronius clears that.  C. 
Yet if you please, hear what Origen says, 
Hom. 4. in Ezech.  who lived in the year of CHRIST two hundredth and sixty; he also witnesseth Britanniam in Christianam consentire religionem. To him we may add Jerome, 
Ad Euagrium.  in the year of our Lord four hundredth and five: Gallia, Britannia, Africa, Persis, oriens I●dia, & omnes barbarae Nationes unum Christum adorant, unam observant regulam veritatis.  R. 
But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus?  C. 
Men may give names as they please; but he and Servanus, Sedulius, Nimanus and many more came, but in the five hundredth year of our Lord, and may well have been waterers of our Church, but sure it is they were not the first planters of it.  R. 
It is likely indeed to be so.  C. 
But to return. Under Diocletian in the three hundredth year, great persecution was made by that Tyrant in all Christian Churches, and among the rest the Church of South Britain was also persecuted by his Deputies, for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots, who did lovingly receive them, and assigned to them the Isle of M●n, and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodo●ēsis ecclesia, wherein they peaceably worshipped Christ jesus; and this our own Chronicle witnesseth. After this in the days of Fethelmacus, which was about the ●ift year of the Emperor Constantius, there came into this Country one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Province in Graecia; but the Country was converted also long before he came: Therefore ●iergus● King of the picts gave him his Palace he had in Fy●●e, 
Holius. Pag. 87.  where he built the Church of Saint Andrew: desire you still to hear any more?  R. 
Truly I am very glad to hear that we have been so ancient Christians; and yet there remains a doubt in my heart, that the Gospel came never hither but out of Rome.  C. 
Remember you not what I have proved; seeing we are but three years in Christianity behind Rome, think you in so small time they did so increase, that they spread out their branches to the uttermost parts of the earth? Yea, rather if you will read the Story, you shall find that for three hundredth years (wherein are many three years) they were so vexed by the persecutors, that they could not get their own Church established; as after it was when God relented the persecution. But to come nierer yet unto you; whether he was an Apostle or an Apostolic man, that first planted our Church, I will give you two great reasons that we have our Faith from the Greek or East Churches, not from the Latin or West Church.  R. 
Now that is the point, and I pray you once clear it: for I think if you evince that, the Church of Rome in her best estate hath been unto us a sister Church, but no mother church.  C. 
My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas, writing to Bernard, who affirms that for seven or eight hundred years after Christ, the Scottishmen did celebrated the Passeover all this time after the Grecian manner, not aster the Roman.  R. 
I understand not that.  C. 
Then I will tell you it. Soon after the days of the Apostles, there happened a controversy between the Churches of the East and West, about the celebration of the Passeover: They of the East did observe it the fourteenth day of the Moon, that same day wherein the jews kept their Passeover: They again of the West, thinking they would have no communion with the jews, did celebrate it the next Sabbath after the fourteenth day. Polïcrates, with the oriental Bishops, alleged the authority of john, Philip, Policarp, yea the prescript of the evangel for their warrant. Victor, and the Bishops of the West alleged for their warrant, Saint Peter, Saint Paul: Such as were more moderate, misliked to see a Schism in the Church for so small a matter: Irenaeus judgeth, Obseruationes ill●s esse liber●s. Socrates, Ostendit nec Victorem, nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi: Nam nec Seruator (inquit) nec Apostoli 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Seeing neither our Saviour, nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the observation thereof.  R. 
Truly it was a lamentable thing, to see so sore a renting of the Church, for so small a cause.  C. 
It was indeed: and yet that in this controversy, the Churches of Britain observed the manner of the Eastern Church, it is an argument they reverenced the East Church for their mother, from whom the grace of the Gospel had come to them.  R. 
It is indeed likely: If these Churches had been planted by Romish Doctors, they would have also received the Romish ceremonies.  C. 
But there is yet an other Argument: 
Histor. Britan. lib. 8. cap. 4.  Galsrid the Cardinal in his Story of Britain, which he wrote in the seven hundredth year, witnesseth that the Britan's would not receive Augustinus junior, 
Cent. 2. Cap. 2.  the Legate of Gregory the great, nor yet acknowledge any primacy of the Bishop of Rome over them: An evident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church. To clear this you shall know that in the sixth hundredth year Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus junior, to persuade the Church there to receive the Romish ceremonies, which to that day they had not known; as Altars, Images, Vestments; Crosses, wherein albeit he had not such speedy success as he would, yet at length did he obtain it, and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland, 
Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17.  but was strongly resisted by Daganus, and Columbanus, Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere volverunt. Again in the seven hundredth year a great schism was in the church of Britain: some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church, keeping still their ancient custom; for the which they pretended the authority of Saint john the Evangelist: Others again embracing the Romish ceremonies▪ which part waxed the stronger, in that King Osuvius inclined to them. Always the matter was debated with so hot contention, that from words it came to weapons, and twelve hundredth Churchmen were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies: this is all the good the Britain Church got from the Pope's Legate; yet the evil rested not here, for at length in the eight hundredth year, by th● persuasion of one Ecbertus, this part of the Isle was also induced to receive the Romish Ceremonies, and thereafter their corrupt doctrine. And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtain superiority over us; and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glory, and sincerity of the Church of Britain. By all this discourse which truly I have made unto you, it may be evident how vainly and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacy over all Churches, and specially how far they wrong this Isle, when they will have Rome called a mother to the Churches here: which unless you will add one syllable cannot be admitted, for indeed she is a Stepmother, and in a word that Infamous Whore of Babel, who as she hath corrupted the Churches with her abominable Superstitions, no marvel if she hath at length infected us also. That Rome is B●bel I will show GOD willing in our next conference, where we shall yet more abundantly see God's goodness towards this Isle, that as we were among the last of them who were deceived by her enchantments, so (praised be God) we are among the first of these, whom God by the light of the Gospel hath delivered from her bondage: And the LORD more and more open your eyes to see the truth.  R. 
God grant me that grace. I will not deny you have wakened thoughts in me which at this time I cannot utter: And now if you prove Rome to be Babel, I will think myself happy that God hath sent me this occasion, as to call me out of it among others of his people. But to morrow, God willing, you will (I hope) keep your promise.  C. 
If God lend me life, and health, I will not fail.   

THE THIRD days CONFERENCE. Concerning the Apostasy of the Church of ROME, and how she is now become that mother of Whoredoms. REVEL.  C. 
NOw (Sir) I am come again to keep my promise, & to prove unto you that Babel in the Revelation signifieth Rome.  R. 
I think that shall be the most difficult labour you have taken in hand hitherto.  C. 
Will you make me this promise, to quit your communion with the Church of Rome, if I prove her to be the Whore of Babel, the mother of Whoredoms?  R. 
I think it were good reason: for I see what ever that Babel may be, much evil is spoken of it, and all God's people are commanded to go out of Babel, with certification, if they will not, they shall be partakers of her plagues.  C. 
Go to then, we will first lay this for a ground, that Babel here is not to be taken literally, neither for Babel in Egypt called now Cayrus, nor yet for Babel in Caldie: but that figuratively it signifies some other thing besides any of them, and this is granted by your own Doctors. Hoc primùm constet, 
Riber. in Apoc. 14.  nomen Babylon●s hic non propriè, sed figura●è accipi: Cum dicit mysterium, mysticum esse indicat quod dicit, id est, arcanum quippiam latere in nomine Babylonïs', nec ita debere accipi ut sonat.  R. 
Let that pass, for I see in that general you and they agree.  C. 
Well then; we will come and see what is understood by Babel: where if you will first hear how the Romish Doctors expound Babel, you shall see such confusion among them as declares them to be the builders of Babel indeed, for one of them understands not what the other says.  R. 
How so?  C. 
You shall see how so. The Divines of Rheims say that Babel, and the Whore of Babel signifies the universal company of the wicked. Revel. cap. 14.8. what think you of that?  R. 
Good ●ooth I cannot think it a solid Commentary: for this Whore of Babel is said to make all Nations drunken with the wine of her fornications, & it is a hard speech to say that the universal company of the reprobate hath corrupted all Nations.  C. 
You take it up very wisely: And yet that they themselves speak this without any certain knowledge it appears by that, which they say Cap. 17. 18. these are their words: if this great City be meant of any one City, and not of the universal company of the reprobate etc. it is likely to be Old Rome till the days of Constantine. And again upon the fifth verse of that same Chapter they say: The first persecuting Emperors were but figures of Antichrist, and it may well be that the great Antichrist shall sit in Rome also as his figures sat in Rome.  R. 
Say the Rhemists, that it may very well be that Antichrist shall sit in Rome?  C. 
Yea forsooth, look their own words.  R. 
I have no skill of that: I never heard but that he should be a jew of the Tribe of Dan, and should sit in jerusalem.  C. 
That is so uncertain a fable that (as you see) themselves cannot lean to it, and their speech for us is plain enough, it may very well be (say they) that Antichrist shall sit at Rome. But to proceed in our purpose, this exposition called Communis expositio, is rejected by their own companions. 
Viega. in Apoca.  In hac multa sunt ad quae visio invita & repugnans trahitur, so says Viega in Apocal. 17.  R. 
I think they have reason to say so: but after what manner do they expound Babel?  C. 
You shall hear. 
De Pont. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2.  Bellarmine not only confesseth Babel is Rome, but proves it by the testimony of ancient fathers. 
In Apo. 14.  Ribera thus, Romae conveniunt aptissimè omnia quae de Babylone dicuntur hoc libro, atqueillud imprimis, quod alij convenire non potest: Septem capita, septem sunt montes. Whatsoever in this book is spoken of Babel, agrees most properly to Rome, especially that which can agree to none other, the Seven heads are seven hills.  R. 
That is plain talk: Indeed I have heard much shifting about these hills, and one of themselves said to me that these seven hills signify seven deadly sins, all to this end to deny that this Prophecy points out Rome, but I never heard it confessed before so clearly.  C. 
You may well say it: for the Rhemists charge the Protestants with madness for expounding the Seven heads seven hills; they should impute madness to their own fellows, and not to us, for they are forced to confess that this Babel is Rome, and the Seven heads seven hills, wherein the whore sits.  R. 
In truth I see they have the weakest end of the string; some of them denying Babel to be Rome; some of them not only granting, but proving it.  C. 
But because I will hide nothing from you, you shall hear what distinctions they use: Bellarmine saith, by Babel is meant Ethnica Roma sub Imperatoribus, Ethnique Rome under Emperors. Viega again he says, 
In si●e cap. 18.  Sermo non es● de antiquâ illâ Româ, sed de illâ quae s●orebit extremo mundi tempore, the speech is not of old Rome, but of Rome as it shall be in the last time of the World: yet he stands not at this but comes (as Ribera also doth) and takes up both the opinions. 
In Apocal. 14.  Quicquid mali de Româ scribitur in hac Apocalypsi, vel ad tempus illud spectat, quo gentilibus Imperatoribu● seruiebat, vel Pontificem suum a se ei●cerit. Whatsoever evil is spoken of Rome in this Apocalypse pertains either to that Rome which was subject to Ethnique Emperors, or to that Rome which will make defection from the Bishop of Rome and cast him out of their City: for they grant that their Bishop will be cast out of Rome, that Rome will be utterly ruinated, & yet say they even then when there shall not be such a thing as Rome, y●t their Pope shall be Bishop of Rome: what think you of this stuff? see you not how they reel? some of them say Rome was Babel, some of them say it will be Babel; none of them can deny that this Babel spoken of by Saint john, the chief seat and City of Antichrist, is Rome.  R. 
I think it goes very hard with them, when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome, but it was Babel, or it will be Babel, that is, either Antichrist sat there, or will set there.  C. 
I hope you shall think much more before you go: for now I will improve their distinction, and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome under Emperors, nor the Town of Rome in the last time of the World, that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome governed by Apostated Popes.  R. 
Make that clear and the cause is won. 
Babel in the Revelation is not Ethnique Rome under Emperors, but Rome once Christian now corrupted under Popes.   C. 
It is evident S. john prophecies of the state of Rome as it will be in the days of Antichrist, so says the jesuit Viega▪ Haec est quarta visio huius operis; eaque illustrissima, & ad Antichristi tempora pertinens. So also says the jesuit Ribera, a ca 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda, & iota ad Antichristum, eiusque tempora pertinet. But the days of persecuting Emperors, were not the days of Antichrist: if they so say, they destroy all their own doctrine concerning Antichrist, and therefore this prophecy of Babel, is not to be understood of the Ethnic Rome under Emperors. Secondly, Ethnic Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospel, and was not married with Christ, and therefore cannot be this Whore, which Carthusian their own man expounds to be An adulterous Whore: You shall find no people in holy Scripture charged with spiritual Whoredom, but such as have been married with Christ, none can be Apostates from the faith, who never stood in the faith, there must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. This whorish Babel then can not be Ethnic Rome, unmarried with Christ. Seeing themselves do grant it is Rome, it must be Rome once Christian, but now corrupted: once Apostolic standing in the faith, now Apostati●ke fallen from the faith. Thirdly, this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations, and the filthiness of her fornication, wherewith she makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth. By this golden cup Berengandus their own man understands, Documenta erroribus plena: And so this Babel can not signify Rome under Emperors, who subdued the world by force of Sword and plain violence, but must signify Rome under Popes, which hath deceived the world by false doctrine and lying miracles. Fourthly, this Babel is called the mother of Whoredoms and abominations in the earth, which not only herself hath played the Whore, corrupting the true worship of God, but hath enforced her corruptions and superstitions upon oth●rs. Now it is known that old Rome sought no more but subjection of bodies, leaving the consciences of people free to any kind of worship they pleased: They subdued the jews, and forced them to pay tribute; but left them to their own Religion: yea so far were they from enforcing their superstitious worship upon any nation, that by the contrary themselves were infected with the superstitions of all nations, as is evident by their Pantheon, which they erected in the honour of all Gods. And so it is not Ethnic Rome under Emperors which here is called the Mother of whoredoms. 
Carthus.  Fiftly, the name of this Babel is mysterium, in quo aliud cernitur, aliud intelligitur: Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur, non omnibus mulieris huius pravatas innotescet, sed viris ius●is & prudentibus. So then by this Babel, some mystical enemy is understood, being indeed an enemy, but in show pretending friendship: and therefore called afterward Gog, and not Magog, that is, not an open and plain enemy, as is the Turk: But Gog, a covered enemy: for this cause figured also before by a beast with two horns, looking like a Lamb, but speaking like the Dragon. To this purpose says JEROME, 
In Daniel. 11.  Simulabit se ducem faederis: And Hilarius, that Antichrist shall be contrary to Christ, under a ●orme of feigned and hypocritical godliness. And chrysostom, 
In Matth. Hom. 49.  Antichrist must be known by his doctrine, not by his titles, miracles, nor words of godliness. And therefore it is a silly defence of the Jesuits: The Pope (say they) prayers humbly to God, and calls himself servus servorum Dei, therefore is not an adversary: for the Question is not what he calls himself, but what he is. But to hold upon this point, it is evident by what which I have said, that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnic, nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebel (for both these are open enemies) but Rome under Popes, a mystical enemy. Sixthly, in this Revelation, there are two women described; the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sun, which is CHRIST, having on her head twelve Stars for a Garland, (the glory of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelve Apostles) and under her feet the Moon, figuring this mutable world: This woman (as themselves confess) represents the true Church. The other woman described Chap. 17. is arrayed in Purple, Scarlet, Gold, and precious stones, void of inward beauty and chastity, she sets forth herself with all external bravery, that she may draw many lovers to her. Now (I say) seeing the first woman signifies the true Church (as themselves confess) and afterward is called the Lambs' wife, why do they not ●ee that this whorish woman must signify the false Church? And since they grant that Babel is Rome, what else can the whore of Babel be, but the whorish Church of Rome? And therefore their own Doctors expounding that prophecy of Saint john, Babel is fallen, and become an habitation of di●els: 
Cap. 13.  Ribera expounds it of an external desolation, according to that of ●say, proph●cied of the first Babel, The ●im, and Z●m shall leap there. But Viega, Nobis etiam illud dicendum vi●etur cum Arethâ, Primasio, Ambrosio, Ansberto, Haimone, idololatriam eius urbis significari, desecturamque, esse Romam a fide, atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia, & i●olotriae superstitionem, expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith, which he says is a thing which will be, but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already, the foretold defection is come, Antichrist that man of sin is discovered, God by the breath of his mouth is daily consuming him.   

THE FOURTH days CONFERENCE. Wherein is declared that ROME is the seat of Antichrist.  C. 
GOod morrow (Sir) how do you to day?  R. 
The best I can.  C. 
It is most like you have not rested well this night.  R. 
To say the truth; Thinking on our conference made my rest the less.  C. 
It agrees but ill with you to hear the Church of Rome convicted of Apostasy.  R. 
I think so indeed, and still will so think till ye resolve this question: what is the cause, there being so many Wise and Learned men in the Pope's Church, that they cannot see the truth, and follow it?  C. 
Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you, but you know what the Apostle says. Brethren ye see your calling, 
1. Cor. 1.26  not many wise, not many noble, nor mighty men after the flesh are called, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the World to confound ●he wise.  R. 
I know that is the Apostles saying; but yet I cannot but marvel what should hold them back from knowledge of the truth.  C. 
You shall cease to marvel if you con●●der one thing.  R. 
What is that?  C. 
When Christ showed himself to the World, how many of the Nobles, and Learned Rabbins, did know him? Will you find any more among the Noble● but joseph of Ar●mathea? Will you find any more among the Learned pharisees but Nicodemus?  R. 
Truly not that I remember,  C. 
Was it then think you a good argument they used against Christ? Doth any of the Rulers, or Scribes believe in Christ●, but only this cursed people who knows not the Law?  R. 
No indeed.  C. 
Be not then moved with the like now. Oh, say the Papists, how many Learned men are of our Religion? Every man natural, in things pertaining to eternal life is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, without a mind, 
Titus 3.3  till he be illuminate by grace: were he in natural reason as quick as Aristotle, or in policy as Achitophel, he is but a stark fool till he be taught of God: and therefore marvel no more that Learned Jesuits cannot know the truth, then when you hear that Learned jewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them.  R. 
The Lord than make us thankful for revealing the way of life unto us, which is hid from so many in the World.  C. 
Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I have subjoined. 
How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come, and warn us to look for him at Rome.   
Let no man seduce you by any means, for the day of the Lord shall not come unless there come first a revolt, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, which is an adversary, and extolled above all which is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God 2. Thessal. 2.3. Now the mystery of iniquity worketh, only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way.  C. 
What think you of this Prophecy.  R. 
I have heard that to be a falling away from the Roman Empire.  C. 
No (Sir) the most judicious, both Ancient, and Recent, expound it to be a falling from the faith: As for the Ancients see Augustine de Civitate Dei ●ib. 20. Cap. 19 Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place.  R. 
But granting it were so, yet this Prophecy is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome.  C. 
No that is also a silly shift: when your Churchmen say that the Pope is Christ Vicar, do they mean any one single Pope?  R. 
No, but the state or succession of Popes.  C. 
Very well, and when we say that the Pope is Christ opposite, do we understand this man, or that man? no truly, but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection.  R. 
But I see not how this Prophecy either toucheth the Pope, or the Church of Rome; and if it be meant of any defection from the faith, it is meant of Luther, calvin, and such as have fallen from the Church of Rome.  C. 
Compare another prophesy of the same Apostle concerning the s●me purpose, and see how he expounds himself.  R. 
Where is that?  C. 
Here are his words 1. Timothy 4.1. Now the Spirit speaks evidently, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, attending to Spirits of error, and Doctrine of Devils: and mark how he subjoins some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasy, to wit, that they shall forbid marriage, and command abstinence from meats, which God hath created to be received with thankesegiving. What think you now, whether doth this touch them or us?  R. 
I know it cannot concern you, for you forbid none to marry that cannot contain.  C. 
Neither can this prophesy be cast back upon Heresies of the Marcionites, and others nearest the Apostles days, as the Jesuits do to shift this prophesy from themselves: for the Apostles say, this Apostasy shall fall out in the la●t times: And the former prophesy says, that the Roman Empire must first be taken out of the way, then shall the Apostasy work to the height: as indeed it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople, 
Chr●so●t●● 2. Thes. 2. hem. 4.  the Emperor decreased, the Bishop of Rome more and more increased, so that it is not meant of Heretics nearest the Apostles days, but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire. And who tell me hath grown by the▪ decay of the Empire? None but the Pope; he hath his Imperial seat, his robes, his crown, his rents, so that the Emperor, except the name & the double Eagle, hath littl● or nothing of the Empire. And therefore Aquinas, who saw what was the meaning of that place, moves the doubt: What shall we answer (says he) seeing the Roman Empire is decayed, how can we deny bu● Antichrist is come? To this he answers, we must say the Roman Empire is not away, only the Temporal power thereof is changed into a Spiritual: what think you, is there not good stuff here?  R. 
In truth I think their cause the longer I hear you the weaker.  C. 
So may you. But yet more to confirm you consider how the Ancient expound this prophesy, and still cast it upon the Church of Rome. Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundredth threescore and six, albeit he plainly show it is not his divination, but the accomplishment of the prophesy which must find out the number of the name, and albeit he make mention also o● other names, as E●an, and Teitan, yet says he said & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 valde verisimile est. Tertullian. contra Martion. Babylon apud joannem Romanae urbis figura est, proinde magnae, regno superbae & sanctorum Dei debellatricis. Tertullian. de resurrectione carnis, see how he expounds that part of the prophesy, Only he who now withholds, let till he be taken out of the way. Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status? c●ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet, & tunc revelabitur iniquus etc. Ambrose in 2. Thessaly. 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat, & appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine. Et iterum. Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus. Cyril Cateches. 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint tempora Romani imperij. Hilarius contra Auxentium: Anne dubium est in eyes esse futurum, Is there any doubt, but Antichrist shall sit in these same temples, and houses, which now ye love and honour: Item, Sub specie evangelicae praedicationis Christo contrarius erit, ibid. This proves, that in the judgement of Hilarius, Antichrist should be a professor, yea, even a Preacher of the truth: Primasius in Apocal. cap. 16. Tunc cadet Babylon, quando novissimè potestatem persequendi sanctos acceperit; Here also it is clear that he means not old Rome. Do not these places make clear, that the Apostasy here prophesied should come after the decay of the Roman Empire? and since themselves can not deny but the temporal Empire is decayed, how then can they deny the Apostasy?  R. 
I think iudeede these places make it clear: specially that which Ambrose hath wherein I mark these things. That first the Empire should decay and then Antichrist should appear, and he should restore liberty to the Romans, but under his own name, and not under the emperors name.  C. 
You have marked that very well: for the Pope hath made the name of Romans more famous than the Emperors did, and under colour of a spiritual Empire, hath made all church subject unto the Church of Rome, and from his name to be named Papists. Hieron in Daniel, 11. Antichristus simulabit se ducem foe deris, hoc est, ●egis, & Testamenti Dei. And albeit the prophesy of Antichrist was not so clear to him, & others of these fathers also, as time hath made it to this age; yet expounding these words of the Apostle; He sits in the Temple of God, he saith, this is, Hierosolymis (ut quidam putant) vel in Ecclesiâ ut veriùs arbitramur. quaest. 11. ad Aglasiam. August. de Civit. Dei, lib. 20. cap. 19 Rectiûs putant alij dictum latinè, sicutest in Graeco: S●debit in Templum Dei, quasi ipse cum suis esset Ecclesia Dei. Theophilactus, Haymo, Lombardus, are of the same mind. The Jesuits of Rheims having showed how many fathers expound this Temple of jerusalem's Temple, at length distrusting it as a vain opinion, they set down this second as more true: That Antichrist, if ever he were of, or in the Church, shall be an Apostata, or runagate out of the Church, and shall usurp upon it by tyranny, and by challenging worship, religion, and government thereof: so that he himself sh●ll be adored in all the Churches of the world; this is to sit in the Temple of God; if any Pope ever ●id so, or sh●ll do, then let the Adversary's call him Antichrist. But indeed this their confession whereby they would clear their Pope, doth plain soil him: he sits in the Church by profession, but is gone out of it by Apostasy, and yet usurps government over it by tyranny; in every Church he is adored as a God on earth, having power over the conscience, excommunicating all such from human society, as will not be subject to him. What think you of that talk to give to the Pope? Tu es alter Deus in terris.  R. 
Who said that?  C. 
It was said to him in the second Lateran Council, by Christopher Marcellus.  R. 
Good sooth it was shame to the flatterer, and a blame to the Pope if he blushed not when he heard it.  C. 
Oh, but that is not the worst; his Canonists style him their Lord God the Pope.  R. 
Fie upon that; will they commit such blasphemy?  C. 
There are their own words: Dic●re Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non pot●isse s●atuere, 
Extrau. joh. 22. cap. Cum inter etc.  prout statuit, haereticum est. To say, that our Lord God the Pope might have discerned otherwise, than he hath discerned is heretical. And again, that they make a God of him, these places may let you see: Si Papa suae, 
Dist. 40. cap. Si Papae, etc.  & sraternae salutis negligens innumerabiles secum ducat cater●atim in Gehennam, huiusmodi culpam nullus mortalium praesum●t redarguere. And again, Est instar sacrilegij disputare de factis Papae, It is sacrilege to dispute upon any of the Pope's deeds. 
Dist. ●0. ca Non nos in glosa, etc.  Or otherwise it is to be said, Quod facta Papae excusantur ut homicidium Sampsonis, furta Hebraeorum, & adulterium jacobi: That the evil deeds of the Pope are to be excused, as the self-murder of Samson, the theft of the Hebrews, the adultery of jacob. Is not this to make the Pope a lawless man?  R. 
I think no less than you say.  C. 
But what say you to this? 
Causa 25. quast. ●. ca Ideo, etc.  Canonibus sacris authoritatem it a praestat ut se illis non subijciat: He in such sort gives authority to holy Scriptures, that he is not subject to it. And that as Christ did some things against the Law (as when he touched the Leper) so the Pope may do some things against the Law. 
Summa Angelica de casibus Con. scientiae. D●●it Papa.  And albeit we read that Ba●a●m was rebuked of his own Ass●, by the which Ass our subjects, by Balaam our Prelates are signified. yet ought not that to be an example to our Subjects to reprove us.  R. 
Indeed I think it a meet comparison for him: Let him be Balaam, and let such as he rides upon be Asses, as to me I thank God I am quit of him.  C. 
Always by these, and innumerable more testimonies it is evident, that he is the lawless man that exaltes himself above all that is called God, and that his blinded captives worship him as God. But we will proceed to the rest of the testimonies. Greg. lib. 9 Epist. 30. Fiden●èr dico quòd quisquis se universalem vocat sacerdotem, aut vocari de●iderat in elatione suâ, Antichristum praecurrit. What think you, doth not Gregory here black the faces of his successors with a visible note of Antichrist? Who, but they are so called?  R. 
They will say he speaks that of john Bishop of Constantinople, who at that time usurped this style.  C. 
Yea, 
Dis●. 99 ca Ecce, etc.  but when Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria, gave that same style to Gregory Bishop of Rome; he did sharply reprove him for it. Recedant verba quae vanitatem instant, & charita●em vulnerant. But he hath yet a clearer place: Rex superbiae propè est, & quod dici nesas est, sacerdotum et exercitus praeparatur, li. 4. Epist. 38. Sibylla says this King shall be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Oraculorum ●ap. 8.  that is White-headed, and shall be called by a name much like Pontus: Or otherwise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, having many Heads or many Crowns: Here he hath one mark from his head, an other from his name: both of these agree to the Bishop of Rome, who weareth solemnly on his head a white Mitre of Silver adorned with three Crowns and precious stones, 
Ibid.  and in Latin is named Pontifex. And again she says, that the greatest terror and fury of his Empire; and the greatest woe that he shall work, shall be by the banks of Tiber. 
How the fathers of the last ages declare that Antichrist is come, and point him out sitting at ROME.   
The ninth hundred year, Thetgandus Episcopus Trevirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum, & lupum vocat, & Romam Babylonem: cum sis servus servorum, dominus dominantium esse contendis, libidine dominandi in praeceps ●bis, quicquid tibilibet, licet, fucusque, factus es Christianis. There he calls the Bishop of Rome Antichrist, a Wolf, a usurper of domination, a deceiver of Christ●ndome, and Rome he calls Babylon: And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum. Tu pontificis personam praete fers, at tyrannum agitas, sub cultu pastoris lupu● sentimus, titulus parentem mentitur, tu te factis iovem esse ostentas; quum sis servus servorum, dominus dominantium esse contendis. 
Epist. 3.  Bernard saith, Bestia illa in Apocalypsi, cui datum est osloquens blasphemias, & bellum gerens cum sanctis, Petri cathedram occupat, tanquam leo paratus ad praedam. The beast spoken of in the Revelation, having a mouth speaking blasphemies, and which Wars against the Saints, is now gotten into Peter's Chair, as a Lion prepared for his prey: What think ye of these words?  R. 
What should I think? for my own part I marvel that the Pope did not burn Bernard for an heretic.  C. 
So you may: But hear yet mo●e. Io●chimus Abbess, who lived three hundred years since, saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae, & altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá. Antichrist long since is borne in Rome, and shall be advanced yet higher in the Apostolic seat. Franciscus Petrarcha archdeacon of Parma, who lived in the thousand three hundredth and fifty year, Epist. 5.14, 17, 18, 19, etc. Compares the Pope to judas, who betrayed Christ with a kiss, his Clergy to the I●wes, who said to him, ave Rex judaeorum: His Prelates to the Phari●ies, ●ho in mockery clothed him with Pu●ple, and after crucified him. And again, Deny it now if thou canst? That thou art she whom S. john saw in the spirit sitting upon many waters; Thou art she and none other, that Babylon the mother of the whoredoms of the earth, drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of jesus; thou art she which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poison. In the thousand and three hundredth year, lib. 2. cap. 5. In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio ● quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum. Sub Pontificis maximi titulo, pastoris pelle, lupum sae●is●mum (nisi caeci simus) sentimus: Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos, audendo, fallendo, & bella ex bellis serendo: magni facti oves trucidant, occidunt pacem, concord●am terris depellunt, intestina bella, domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt, indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant, ut omnium capitibus insultent, omnes devorent, universos in servitutem redigant, etc. Ingentia loquitur, quasi verò Deus esset: nova consilia sub pectore volutat, ut nowm sibi constituat imperium, leges commutat, suas sancit: contamin●t, diripit, spoliat, fraudat, occidit perditus ille homo, quem Antichristum vocare solent, in cuius fronte co●tumeliae nomen scriptum est: Deus sum, errare non possum: in templo Dei sedet; longè, lateque, dominatur. In the thousand and four hundredth year, lib. 1. cap. 4. johannes vicesimus tertius, wrote unto the Oriental Church an Epistle, declaring that there was but one Christian Church only, and that he was head thereof, and the Vicar of Christ: The Grecians wrote back to him this answer. Potentiam tuam summam erga sub●itos tuos firmiter credimus, superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus, avaritiam expl●re non valemus: Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum. Thy great power over thy Subjects we firmly believe, thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate, thy avarice we are not able to satisfy: the devil is with thee, for the Lord is with us.  R. 
God be merciful to us.  C. 
Amen. Now (Sir) I must crave your licence, for some friends are attending me, with whom I appointed to meet this hour.  R. 
Good reason, but before you go, I would fain he are an answer to two questions, which commonly they demand.  C. 
Which are those?  R. 
The one is: Where was your Church before Luther? the other: Are all our fathers damned?  C. 
With a very good will. But if you please, defer the conference concerning them till to morrow.  R. 
Let it be so, now the Lord be with you.   

THE FIFTH days CONFERENCE. Wherein the common question of the Adversaries is answered: Where was your Church before LUTHER?  C. 
NOw (Sir) you remember you propounded two questions to me yesternight.  R. 
It is very true, and I would gladly hear your answer to them, for▪ my further resolution: What think you then, because you call Papistry heresy, are you of that mind that all our fathers are damned, & that no Papist can be saved?  C. 
I am not to judge of men's persons: many are called Papists who know not what Papistry means, and many live Papists who dare not die Papists, or if so they do, they know not what they do. But Papistry itself, I affirm it is a pernicious doctrine, yea as the Apostle calls it, a doctrine of devils, killing the Souls of them who believe it: But this is the second of your questions, which we will reserve till the next day.  R. 
Let it be so. What then say you to the first? Where was your Church before Luther?  C. 
Even where our doctrine was, sometime in one Country, sometime in an other, as it pleased God in his wise dispensation, who carries the light of his Gospel, as he doth the Sun, through the World, to illuminate Nations at s●uerall times therewith according to his will.  R. 
That is a fair General; but will ye tell us, who were these? What Country people? What Doctors, who taught as ye teach?  R. 
Look the Churches of Asia, Asricke, and of Europe, consider them as they were before the mystery of iniquity came to the height, and you shall see that they all had the same doctrine, and form of a Church that we have in all substantial points pertaining to Religion.  R. 
But you are not able to name one before Luther, teaching in all things as he did.  C. 
This is a piece of Sophistry, whereby your deceivers blind the ignorant.  R. 
How so, should not the teachers of the truth agree in all things in one harmony?  C. 
I grant they should, and thanks be to God, they do also in all substantial things which are Articles of our faith. But is this a good reason: because some Doctors in some opinions differ, whereof men may be ignorant and saved nevertheless, that therefore these Doctors teach no truth, and their Churches are no true Churches?  R. 
That seems to be hard indeed.  C. 
You have reason for you so to think: for in one age Vi●tor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Polycrates, and the Churches of the East; and Jerome had his own discordance with Augustine, against the exposition of the commandment, Thou shalt bear no false witness, in that question de mendacio: and the first Fathers of the Primitive Church were Chiliasts; shall it thereupon follow, that because in this point, they taught not in all things as we do, that therefore they were not a Church?  R. 
It is no reason.  C. 
Cyprian in the point of rebaptising, taught not as Cornelius; what of that? will it follow that he was not a faithful Pastor, or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church?  R. 
It follows not indeed.  C. 
Why then do you urge me to give you one before Luther or Calvin, who in all points taught as we teach. The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent, are men subject to infirmities; for no man upon earth, hath his understanding perfect, whereof it comes to pass, that in some things one of them differs from an other: But as to the Articles of the faith, and substance of Christian religion, whereby comes salvation; sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian, Ambrose, A●gustine, Luther and Calvin have all delivered o●e doctrine, and did teach the way of God truly.  R. 
The● you think the Fathers of the Primitive Church were of your Religion.  C. 
I think s● indeed, & hope to die in that same faith where●● they lived and died.  R. 
It would be thought strange to hear that in Italy, that the Doctors of the Primitive Church were of the Protestants Religion.  C. 
No marvel it be strange there, where Truth is a stranger: but this answer was given you and them both, by a worthy Doctor of our Church and we yet stand to it: Patres in maximis sunt nostri, in multis varij, ●n minimis vestri. Such Fathers as have written before us, and you both in greatest things are ours, in many things are doubtful, in smallest things they are yours.  R. 
Well, I shall remember that (God willing): but in the days of Papistry, wherewith you say the world was blinded, where was your Church?  C. 
Answer me but an other question, and it shall resolve you.  R. 
What is that?  C. 
Your Doctors say, that when Antichrist shall come, the Church shall ●lie to the desert, that is, as themselves expound it: The Church shall be without public state of regiment, 
Rhemists. Revel. 12.  and open free exercise of holy functions, neither shall it be unknown to the faithful which follow it; as this day may be seen the like by the Church of Roman Catholics in many parts of England.  R. 
What doth that help you?  C. 
Very much: that which they themselves say, will be done, we say is done: Antichrist hath already chased the Church to the wilderness, and so oppressed it, that for a time it had no public state of regiment, nor open free exercise of holy functions: yet was it not unknown to the faithful that followed it, nor to the enemies that persecuted it, as this day may be seen by the Church of Christian Catholics in many parts of France.  R. 
Will ye make that clear, and I think you have won much.  C. 
What greater clearness can you crave? If this answer be good to clear the Pope's Church, when they say it will be obscured by Antichrist, and yet be: is it not as good to justify our Church, when we say it hath been obscured by Antichrist, and yet was?  R. 
The answer is good enough, only if you can, I would have you qualify it more particularly.  C. 
There is not one age since the days of Christ unto this day, wherein I can not point forth men, preaching and professing as we do: but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry, I will let you see it is a needless question for the Pope's Church to demand of us, where our Church then was? for they found us always in their teeth before ever Luther or Calvin was borne.  R. 
Make that good.  C. 
Reme●us a Popish Inquisitor, 
R●●. cap. 27.  who lived more than three hundred years ago, speaking of the poor men of Lions, and calling them in contempt Valdenses, Leonistae, saith they were more pernicious to the Church of Rome, than all other sects fo● three causes: First, because it hath been of longer continuance: for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times. The second cause is, because it is more general: for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creep. The third cause, for that all other sects do bring an horror with the heinousness of their blasphemies against God; but this Sect of Leonists hath a great show of godliness, because they live justly before men, and believe all things well concerning God, and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed, only they blaspheme & hate the Church of Rome. Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for us, which may serve to stop the mouths of all our enemies from demanding of us any more, Where was your Church before Luther?  R. 
ay, but he calls them a Sect, and says they blasphemed the Church.  C. 
So the Priests of the jews called the Church of Christians, a Sect of Nazarits, Act. 24.5. What is that to the matter? yet he grants they are such a Sect, as first, had been from the beginning: secondly, had been in all Countries, & thirdly, was honest in lise, & sound in faith: save only that they held the Church of Rome to be the whore of Ba●el. And that yet this prejudice which you have conceived of our Church may be further removed out of your mind; I pray you consider this: Think you not, that with good reason we may affirm that we are in communion with them, who have taught the same doctrine that we teach? if our doctrine was in former ages, you will not deny that our Church was then also.  R. 
That can not be denied.  C. 
Well then, if you please, name me any controversy of religion, concerning any Article of faith▪ between us and the Papists thi● day, and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it.  R. 
That is strange, for they repose their chiefest strength & trust in the ancient fathers.  C. 
brag what they will it is true, I say they may well boast in the dross of fathers & deck their errors with it, but we shall bring you their finest gold. Name you the controversy, & you shall try that which I say to be a truth.  R. 
There are so many controversies among you, that I know not which of them to name first.  C. 
Then will it please you to take a view of these, which I have gathered for my own private use?  R. 
With a very good will: let me see what they are.  C. 
They are here in a little s●role, and I have collected them for my own confirmation in the faith; for, as first of all I learned the way of salvation in the Scriptures, so finding that the Doctors of the Primitive Church exponed the Scriptures, conformable to the doctrine of our teachers, I was greatly therein confirmed: for these are the two great props of our faith, which Vincentius gives us against all heresy, cap.▪ 2.  R. 
You have reason for you▪ for if your Doctrine be so warranted both by divine authority of God in his word, and human testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church, they are to be judged most unworthy that make contradiction to you.  C. 
Well, that I may be as good as my word, there they are, I leave them with you, that you may read them at your own leisure.  R. 
I thank you for them, and because I am not to tarry in this Town, let met have (I pray you) a copy of them with me, that I may read them at leisure.  C. 
So long as you are in the Town you may be doing, otherwise, if occasion serve you not, as soon as I can provide a copy of them for myself, I shall send you this to any place you please to appoint.  R. 
Let it be so, and I shall God willing put you in mind of it.   

THE six days CONFERENCE. Wherein an other Question commonly objected by the Adversaries is answered: Seeing you cannot deny that your fathers were Papists, what think you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.  R. 
WElcome yet (Sir) I see you are not weary, to take pains with me.  C. 
No in truth, it is no pain but pleasure unto me, if by any means I may be an instrument to do you good.  R. 
I thank you for it: Now what say you to our Question, Are all our fathers damned? Or ●f not, may it not serve us to be ●f their Religion?  C. 
That is but a subtle question whereby Jesuits draw ●imple people to a liking of Papistry; because forsooth some ●f their f●thers lived, and died in it as they allege.  R. 
And why, think you it not a good reason?  C. 
Not indeed ● for some times I find GOD forbids his people to be as their fathers were: 
Z●ch 1.  where our Father's have forsaken the Religion of the f●rst Fathers we should not follow them.  R. 
That was sufficiently cleared in our first Conference.  C. 
It was so, yet you force me to remember it. But now before I come to the point: I will tell you a pretty Story I have read concerning this matter.  R. 
Let me hear it I pray you.  C. 
I read that a certain Duke of Friesland named Raboldus, about the year of our LORD nine hundredth, being persuaded (as he pretended) to embrace Christianity, as he went to be baptised and had the one of his feet in the water, he demanded of the Bishops If all his Forefathers were damned? the Bishops answered more rashly then wisely, they were all damned: whereupon the Duke pulled back his feet again, saying, Then I will also be damned with them. Think you this a good answer?  R. 
No indeed I think it a mad answer.  C. 
Yet the same is the poison wherewith your jesuits subtly infect the hearts of simple ones, that they should rather choose to be damned with their Father's th●n saved without them.  R. 
But will you say to us as these Bishops said to him, That all our Fathers are damned?  C. 
Nay that will I not; judgement of election and reprobation pertains to the Lord, their persons I leave: but the doctrine of Papistry I am sure is deadly, and brings damnation to the souls of men.  R. 
Then you will not give judgement of their persons.  C. 
No indeed: for, as to their persons▪ I know many this day are so called, who know not the Doctrine of Papistry; and, as to them who have lived before us, howsoever in their life they professed Papistry, yet in their death they were forced to seek comfort in our Religion.  R. 
That is strange that you will say many of our Fathers died in your Religion.  C. 
Yet it is true, as I will let you see by a little form of visitation of the sick, used at that time when Antichrists darkness was greatest, to wit, in the eleventh hundred year, for so the Churchmen spoke to the sick: Fateris te ●am malè vixisse ut meritis tuis pae●● aeterna ●ebe●tur? Dost thou not acknowledge that thine evil life deserves eternal d●ath? The diseased answered, E●iam, ye●: The other▪ still inquired, Paenitet ●e horum? Repentest thou th●se sins? The other answered Etiam, yea I do: still he inquire●, Credis quò● pro te mortu ●s ●●t dominus jesus? Believest thou that jesus died for thee, and that thou canst not be saved but by his death? The other answers, I do so indeed. Then concludes the Preacher this way: Age ergò, dum in te superest anima, in h●c solâ mortetotam fuluciam tuam constitue, in nullâ aliâ re habe as fiduciam, huic mortito●um te commit, hac solate totum contegne, hâc morte tetotum involve. Et si dominus deus volverit te judicare, dic, Domine mortem domini nostri obijcio inter me & tuum judicium, aliter tecum non contendo. Go to then, so long as thy Soul is in thee, in this only death of Christ place thou thine whole confidence, tr●st not in any other thing, commit thyself altogether unto this death, with this death only cover thyself, in it only involve thyself: And if the Lord God will judge thee, then say to him, O Lord, I have nothing to lay betw●ene me and thy judgement, but the death of the Lord jesus, otherwise I contend not with thee. See you not here first, that they warned their people to provide for themselves so long as they are in the body, and feed them not with a vain hope, as the Romish Doctors do their people: For the present they send them to a place they call Purgatory, but promise to bring them again out of it; they first suffering pains there, and either themselves, or their friends making due payment for them on Earth.  R. 
In good sooth that is a comfortless, and (I may say) a cozening kind of doctrine.  C. 
Well, see you not again a renouncing of all other merits; and of all satisfactions to be made by suffering the pains of Purgatory or otherwise. And thirdly see you not that the Pastor teacheth, and the people professeth a sure confidence, & no dubitation, in Christ's blood only.  R. 
I see that clearly.  C. 
Then I say these men might well die w●th the name of Papist●, but they died not with the doctrine of Papists: for they renounced all merits, both their own, and any others, and only rested upon the merits of Christ.  R. 
But what will you say of them who have died with all the opinions of Papistry?  C. 
I will answer that as Cyprian answered the like when it was demanded of him. An damnat● sunt maiores nostri, qui hun● vel illum articulum non intellexerunt? Were all our Father's damned who understood not this, or that Article of faith? he answered, Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam dare, non tamen q●ia semel erratum est, ideo semper errandum est. God is able of his great mercy to give indulgence, but yet there is no reason, that we should always ●rr●, because they once did err.  R. 
In truth that is a very modest answer.  C. 
But hear you what further he saith: Si quis ex Antecessoribus nostris, vel ignoranter, vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit, & tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit, potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi; nobis vero non poterit ignosci, quia à Domino admoniti & instructi sumus; If any of our forefathers, either of ignorance, or simplicity hath not holden and observed that which the Lord hath taught us, to do by his example, there may be mercy granted to his simplicity out of God's indulgence: but we cannot be forgiven, who now are otherwise instructed & admonished by the Lord.  R. 
That answer I see is more sharp, and yet most reasonable; many things are excusable in the night, that are not tolerable in the day: The servant that knows his Master's will, and do●h it not, is worthy of double stripes.  C. 
And I am glad you see it, and I would many more had their eyes open to see it, who think Papistry now tolerable in the days of light, as it was in the days of darkness: it was a fault then, for even the servant who knows not his Master's will shall be stricken; but it is a double fault now, for he, who knows his Master's will, and does the contrary, shall have double stripes.  R. 
Then I see you will not give out, judgement upon the people of Papists, whether they be saved or damned.  C. 
Indeed I will not, and that for two causes: first, because, (as I have said) many are Papists by name, which are no Papists: some of ignorance, some of vain glory, some of policy to get themselves the more credit. And as to these who are infected indeed with the heresies of Papistry; yet is it uncertain if they shall so continue, for the Lord is marvellous in working with such as belong to his election, that howsoever for the present we see them in sin and ignorance, ye● know we not what they will be ● so many secret ways ●●th the Lord in time of sickness, yea, in the very hour of d●ath to draw the h●arts of m●n towards himself, which are hid from us, that it w●re but presumption to judge of an other man's salvation or reprobation.  R. 
Indeed I commend you, for I think you speak with that sobriety which become a christian.  C. 
And yet whatsoever I have said concerning the persons of Papists, there is further to be said of Papistry itself: that it is a doctrine so full of heresies, so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel, that I dare say, a man believing all the points of Papistry, and persevering in them ●o the end without repentance cannot be saved.  R. 
Now that is the point, & I pray you make it clear.  C. 
It is clear by these places following, which will show you that Papistry is a doctrine of Devils, a plague of God, and a just punishment laid on reprobate men for their sins, and a forerunner of the wrath to come.  R. 
Good sooth I quake to hear this.  C. 
You shall see them all particularly qualified: and first there is a prophesy made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come, in these words; Now the spirit speaks evidently, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to the spirits of error & doctrine of Devils: which speak lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience burned with an hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, etc. Perceive you not here, that the doctrine which forbids marriage and commands abstinence from meats, is called a doctrine of devils?  R. 
Very well, but that is meant of heretics, which were soon after the Apostles days, as Ebio●its, Marcionites, &c.  C. 
Nay, that is a silly shift, for he saith, these teachers shall come in the latter times; and the departure from the faith, whereof he prophesieth, was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire: but in the days of Ebion, Martion, etc. the Roman Empire was in great glory.  R. 
But if that be meant of any Apostasy in the later times it is of your sect (will they say) that hath fallen from the church of Rome.  C. 
It cannot be meant of us: for we neither forbid marriage, nor command abstinence from meats for conscience sake.  R. 
That is very true: but may not the Church for some causes command abstinency from meats?  C. 
Yes, for Prayer and devotion, and that for a time only, but not because any meat is unclean, or one meat is holier than an other▪ as they think their Chartrouse Monks more holy that never eat flesh, than others are: 
Durand. lib. 6. cap. de aliis ieiu●ijs.  and why forsooth? because flesh and not fish was accursed in the days of Noah.  R. 
Indeed that seems to be somewhat superstitious.  C. 
Well, I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question. It is clear, these are two points of Papistical doctrine, called by the Apostle doctrine of Devils; So I proceed, There shall arise false Christ's, and false Prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, so that if it were possible they should deceive the very elect, Mat. 24.24. The coming of Antichrist by the working of Satan with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 2. Thess. 2.9. And in a●● deceivableness of unrighteousness among them that perish, because they received not the truth ●hat they might be saved, ibid. ver. 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they should believe lies, verse 11. That all they might be damned, which believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, ver. 12. All that dwell upon the earth shall worship the beast, whose names are not written in the Book● of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning. Revel. 13.8. And he deceived them which dwelled on earth by the signs which were permitted him to do, ver. 14. If any man worship the beast, etc. the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, and shall be tormented in fire and brimstone. Reu. 14.9.10. Go out of Babel my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and receive not of her plagues. These places make clear unto you, that it is only the reprobate, worldlyminded called therefore dwellers on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life, children of perdition; it is only they (I say) who are fully and finally deceived with the spirit of Antichrist, and that in God's righteous judgement are given over to believe lies, because they received not the love of the truth: What think ye of these?  R. 
In truth I am astonished to hear these fearful places.  C. 
This is yet further cleared by Augustine, who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultu●● Dei judicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur: It pertains to God's secret judgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist: Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur, pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt. They shall be deceived who have deserved to be deceived, because they receive not the love of the truth: and yet more fearful is the sentence, which he subjoins, judicati seducentur, & seducti iudicabuntur: when they are judged they shall be deceived, and because they were deceived they shall be judged over again: they are first judged by the judgement of God, secretly just, and justly secret, whereby now he punisheth the sins of men, delivering them to the Spirit of error, that received not the love of his truth: and because they were deceived they shall be judged again in that last and manifest judgement to be made by Christ jesus, who was unjustly judge himself, but most justly shall judge the World. This Commentary makes it clear, that Papistry is not only a sin, but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sin, specially for contempt of the Gospel; and a procurement of that fearful wrath that is to come, which if it were considered, men would not esteem Papistry so indifferent a thing as they do▪  R. 
God be merciful to them who yet are blinded with these errors, and Lord make me thankful who hath begun to deliver me from that darkness; the Lord illuminate me more and more with his light, that I may know his way, and may receive grace to follow it.  C. 
Amen: But now I remember, I promised before to declare unto you, that Papistry impugns both the Person and offices of Christ, and so in effect denies that jesus the Son of Marie is the Christ.  R. 
That is most strange.  C. 
It is indeed, and yet it is true, as you shal● perceive if you go through the principal Articles of our faith. And first to begin at Christ person, that of many we may touch a few, We believe that jesus Christ is both God and man.  R. 
And who denies that?  C. 
You know that old Arriu● denied his Divinity, and now Papists deny his humanity.  R. 
How can you say that?  C. 
Because they worship and adore a Christ, who is not come in the flesh: To clear this, I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles, 1. joh. 4. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false Prophets are gone out into the World. In this the spirit of God is known; Every spirit that confesseth jesus Christ to have come in the flesh is of God. There is a golden rule for us and them both, and mark there the opposition, Every spirit that saith otherwise, is the spirit of Antichrist.  R. 
Let it be so: What is that against Papists?  C. 
Yea, it is against them directly, for the word teacheth us to worship Christ, Conceived of the holy Ghost, horn of the Virgin Marie: But they worship Christ created by a Priest, not conceived by the holy Ghost; a Christ whose flesh is made of Bread by Transubstantiation, whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation.  R. 
But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie.  C. 
If it be the same Christ, then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread: for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of David by the operation of the Holy Ghost, but this Christ whom they worship in the Mass hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation, and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this work Creatorem sui Creatoris, a Creator of his Creator.  R. 
But saith not our Lord that the Bread given in the Sacrament is his Body?  C. 
Yea indeed, and so we believe it is: for it is no naked nor common bread that ho gives us there the giving of that bread, It is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the Communion of his blessed body.  R. 
But if it be Bread, how can it be his body?  C. 
It is needless to demand how? Since he hath said it; but I believe it is his body.  R. 
But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body?  C. 
And I pray you, may not Christ of his omnipotent power, and truth, give me his body, except he turn bread into his body?  R. 
I dare not say so.  C. 
And you have reason: The Papists charge us that we deny God's omnipotency, but the fault is theirs; they deny his omnipotency, when they say he can not give us his body in the Sacrament, except he make his body of bread. Do they not here limit the Lord?  R. 
Well I see it is great wisdom to ponder every thing we believe in the balance of God's word, I would not have thought there had been suc●●lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrine of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly.  C. 
You may join to this another testimony of the Apostle Hebrews 13. jesus Christ yesterday, this day, and the same for ever.  R. 
What will that make against them?  C. 
That they are blind to worship a Christ this day, who was not a Christ yesterday: for you know they grant themselves that before consecration the bread is not Christ.  R. 
It is true indeed.  C. 
Then you may perceive it is but an artificial Christ made by man whom they worship, and not ●he true Christ. Thus you see how they are injurious to his person, for the which cause I said to you, that Papists by necessity of consequence, deny jesus the son of Marie to be the Christ. Now to his Offices, they are all comprised under the name Christ, for he is the anointed King, Prophet, and Priest of his Church.  R. 
And they will grant all that unto you.  C. 
I know in word they will, but in effect they take his Offices from him?  R. 
How can that be?  C. 
You shall see how: what think you is the office of a Prophet?  R. 
To teach.  C. 
You say very well, and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised up among his brethren: And the great Angel of the counsel of God, who came into the World to reveal perfectly unto the Church the will of God concerning man's salvation, and God's worship: so that now once for all God hath spoken to us in these last days by his son, and we have not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will.  R. 
I think no man will deny that.  C. 
You shall hear how it is denied, if first I make the point more clear unto you: you know that the father proclaimed from Heaven, first at jordan, then at mount Tabor, This is my well-beloved son in whom I am well pleased, hear him. See you not here how we are plainly commanded to learn Gods will concerning our Salvation from the Son?  R. 
Yea I see that, and it is good reason.  C. 
Then if you will come and hear what the Son says, you shall see that as the Father sends us to the Son, so the Son sends us to the Scriptures: if we would have eternal life search the Scriptures, and he witnesseth plainly john 17.8. The words which thou gavest me, I gave them, meaning to his Disciples. Where again if you look to the Disciples words: The Scripture (says Saint Paul) is able to make the man of God perfect, and therefore he protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets, and yet that he had delivered to them the whole counsel of God. See you what a comfortable harmony is here: The Father bids us hear the Son; the Son protests the words the Father gave him, he gave to his Disciples; and both of them sends us to the Scripture, as containing the whole counsel of God concerning our Salvation.  R. 
I see all that clearly.  C. 
Then what spirit are they led with that dare say, It had been good for the Church the Scripture had never been.  R. 
Who dare say that?  C. 
I have heard with mine ears defenders of Papistry say it: and the positions of their own Doctors no less blasphemous are extant to be seen: Lectio Scripturae non, ●antùm est inutilis, sed pernitio samultis modis; the reading of Holy Scripture is not only unprofitable; but pernicious. And therefore they will not let the people read nor search the Scripture, though Christ commanded: so to do●: and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their own decrees, and other traditions, which they make of equal authority with the Scripture. Thus you see how they take away Christ's Prophetical office. Now to come to his Priestly office: you know the Priest's office was twofold, first he ought to sacrifice for the people, & next to pray for them.  R. 
And they acknowledge both these, that Christ hath offered himself in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, and that he still makes intercession for v● in heaven.  C. 
ay, but they so acknowledge it, that in both these offices they join others with Christ, and so make him not a full and perfect Saviour of his people by himself, but a halfe-saviour in part.  R. 
I unterstand not that.  C. 
I shall make it clear to you. There is the testimony of th● Word concerning the sufficiency of the merit of Christ's blood. The blood of Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin,  R. 
They will not be against that.  C. 
But they are when they make this distinction, that principally Christ's blood cleanseth from sin▪ but secondarily there must be other things with it to clens● sin: as works of satisfaction in this life, and fire of Purgatory in the life to come. By these also according to their own● doctrine▪ sin is cleansed.  R. 
For my own part I would always: reserve to Christ his own glory, which I know he will not give to any other▪  C. 
You have reason for you▪ and you shall think it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies.  R. 
What are those?  C. 
The first is Heb. 1.3. That Christ by himself hath made purgation of our sins.  R. 
What will you gather of that place?  C. 
A most necessary observation for clearing this controversy, to wit, that the purging power of sin is personal to Christ, he hath done it, by himself▪ the virtue and benef●● of i● he communicates to others that repent and believe, bou●●e meriting power, by which God is reconciled▪ and his iust●c● satisfied, he transfers not, neither to any man's person nor any other thing beside.  R. 
Surely, according to my understanding that is a truth, wherein every Christian should rest, for it is most comfortable to the conscience, since we are not ●bl●, neither in whole nor in part to satisfy for our own sins.  C. 
It is so indeed, and that you may be the more confirmed, will you look how the Jesuits who 〈◊〉 the light, because it convinceth them of darkness, in●translating this place, leave out t●is word By he: they, say he makes purgation of sins, but pass by this word, by himself, look you their own translation.  R. 
I se● ind●ed they have it not ●n their translation, but is it I pray you in the Greek text?  C. 
Yea forsooth if you can read it, these are the words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  R. 
In truth this one place makes all their doctrine, concerning the supplement of Christ's merits, justly to be suspected: for since he hath made the purgation of our sins by himself, what should we look that they are to be purged by any other?  C. 
You reason well.  R. 
I speak as I think: it is either pitiful ignorance, that they see not the truth, or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so clear a place of holy Scripture, leaving it out of their Bible, because it ●akes against them.  C. 
But now take in with this the other testimony of holy Scripture, whereof I spoke. you have it Heb. 7. ver. 25. Christ is able to save perfectly (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) all that come unto God by him.  R. 
I see that is also a comfortable place.  C. 
So it is indeed: for as the first makes you see that Christ's meriting power is personal, & in himself, not transferred to any other▪ so this makes you see it is perfect: he hath done the work of our salvation in his own person, and he hath done it perfectly: What more can you crave?  R. 
Truly I crave no more.  C. 
Away then with these rotten dregs of Papistry, that teach us to depend upon other merits, & upon an other blood (as I showed you the first day) besides the merits of the blood of Christ.  R. 
For my own part I think never to lean to them, but will rest upon that only perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Cross for my sins.  C. 
If you abide there, you are upon the sure foundation; and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices, which derogate from the perfection & sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ.  R. 
I will indeed▪  C. 
Then for your confirmation mark these places. Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb. 9.26. Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, Heb. 9.28. We are sanctified by the offering of the body of jesus Christ once, Heb. 10.10. This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sins, sits forever at the right hand of God. Heb. 10.12. With one offering hath he consecrated for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10.14. where remission of sins is, there is no more offering for sin, Heb. 10.18. Christ needed not daily (as these high Priests) to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for that did he once, when he offered up himself, Heb. 7.27. without shedding of blood, is no remission. Heb. 9.22. Perceive you not here that the Apostle repeating this so oft, that Christ was once offered, for taking away our sins, destroyeth all other pretended sacrifices for sin, and specially that sacrifice of the Mass, which they say is a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the quick and the dead.  R. 
Truly the places are so plain, that very children may understand them, and I would God that these poor people, who of a blind mind dote after Masses, thinking by it to get the pardon of their sins, had this benefit of God's word, as you have it, that so by the light of it they might come to the knowledge of the truth.  C. 
And I wish the same from my heart, But now to confirm you yet further, I pray you mark how blasphemous and deceitful a thing their Mass is. First, is not this a mockery of GOD the Father, To desire him to accept his own Son: Is Christ out of the favour of his Father? said he not; He is my Son in whom I am well pleased? shall a mortal & miserable sinful Priest be a Mediator, or Peacemaker between the Father and the Son, praying the Father that he would accept his Son, and send down an Angel to take up his body into Heaven?  R. 
Fie upon it: It is a vile blasphemy.  C. 
Secondly, see you not how it inverts God's ordinance? for where he hath ordained a Sacrament, wherein God offers and gives his Son to us; they have changed it into a sacrifice, wherein they offer up the Son to the Father.  R. 
I see that also▪  C. 
Thirdly, Is it not an injurious thing to Christ, to say that any can offer him up to God, but himself?  R. 
It is inde●de: for as no other Sacrifice can satisfy God's justice, so no other sacrificer can be worthy to offer him but himself, as is clear out of your former Testimonies:  C. 
Fourthly, Is it not a deceiving of the people, to say that an unbloody Sacrifice (such as they say the Mass is) can be propitiatory to obtain remission of sins?  R. 
It is indeed, and expressly against the Word of God you have alleged, Without shedding of blood there is no remission: they grant themselves that in the Mass there is no shedding of blood, and how then can it give pardon or remission of sins?  C. 
Well then, since by this you see how they derogate from Christ's sacrifice, which is the first part of Christ's priestly office, I will now let you see how they also cut away the other, namely, his intercession. Mark that place of the Apostle, There is one God, and one Mediator of God and Man, the Man Christ jesus.  R. 
They have a distinction for that, and say, there is but one Mediator of redemption, but for Intercession many.  C. 
But will you consider the place; and you shall see where the Apostle says, there is but one Mediator, he is speaking of Intercession and praying, and so his meaning must be, There is one Mediator of Intercession: read the place and see.  R. 
I see it is so indeed.  C. 
Now with it will you but join this place of Augustine, Qui pro omnibus interpellat pro quo autem nullus, 
Cont. Epist. Parme●. l. 2. cap. 8,  is verus & unicus mediator est: He that intercedes for all, for whom none interceedes, is the only true Mediator. And there he says it should be a great absurdity, if Paul were called a Mediator, for so there should be many Mediators of Intercession.  R. 
But should not Christians intercede one of them for an other, as we are commanded, One of you pray for an other.  C. 
They should indeed: but you must understand, that this and the like precepts are for Christians here militant on earth in one communion, wherein alike one of them is bound to help an other by their prayers.  R. 
But do not they who are in heaven pray for the Church militant on earth?  C. 
I think they do in general, but not upon any particular knowledge of our private necessities, troubles or temptations.  R. 
How can that be?  C. 
You may soon understand how, for if they know your griefs, it is either by hearing of your words, or understanding of your thoughts, or by some Revelation made to them. Think ye they know your thoughts.  R. 
No indeed, that is proper to God.  C. 
Think you they hear your voice, when you express in prayer your thoughts by your words.  R. 
I cannot think that neither, since they want their bodies which have the organs of hearing.  C. 
Then they must know it by Revelation.  R. 
It is most likely that when we pray, God tells them our necessities.  C. 
What need you then to pray them to intercede for you.  R. 
But how shall we go to a King but by his Courtiers?  C. 
What a silly refuge is that? You have forgotten what you answered even now. See you not here how that similitude used by Papists is destroyed, to wit, That as we go to earthly Kings by Courtiers, so we should go to the King of Heaven, by heavenly Courtiers: for here it is not the Courtier that shows our necessities to the King, but the King you see shows them to his Courtiers. And would you not think him a fool, who may have the King himself to speak to, and knows he will be welcome if he speak as he should, and yet passeth by the King, and depends upon Courtiers to have his turn done by them?  R. 
I think no less than you say, but how is it then they pray for us in general?  C. 
I will show you how: there are four sorts of prayer, one called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whereby we crave ●uill to be diverted from us; an other called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whereby we s●●ke some good we want to be given unto us: the third is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whereby one of us interceedes for an other: and the fourth is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, thanksgiving for good received. Now they who are in heaven are freed from tentation, and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not ascribed to them: neither yet is ever 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in holy scripture given them: They rest from their labours, they are not busied to be patrons to several Countries, Cities and Companies of people, having the particular cures of several diseases parted among them, that is but a doting dream of Papistry: but you will find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, thanksgiving ascribed to them, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, too in general, whereby they pray for some good they yet want, but look to enjoy: as is evident out of their own words, How long Lord: for this is the voice of these who want some thing they would fain have.  R. 
Tell me I pray you what want they who are in heaven?  C. 
First, these glorified spirits want their bodies, without the which they can never have full contentment: for the soul and body were created companions, the perfection of both stands in the promised union of both.  R. 
I understand that very well: but want they no other thing, for which they cry, How long?  C. 
Yea, they want their brethren, all them that belong to the communion of Saints; their desire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren be where they are: for God hath so provided that th●y without us should not be perfected.  R. 
In truth that is exceeding comfortable, that Adam, Abraham, & the rest of that congregation of the first borne shall not be perfected till we come to them, yea, till the full number of God's Saints be accomplished. But is there no other thing they long for?  C. 
Yea, they long and pray for the coming of Christ, Even so come Lord jesus: at which time they know very well, that all the promises of God shall be performed to all and every one of the Saints of God. Thus far you see how they in Heaven do pray in general.  R. 
But you think not that we should pray to them in our particular necessities.  C. 
No indeed▪ for beside the former reason, we have no warrant to pray unto them, and so cannot do it in faith. Will you consider can there be any better Schoolmasters to teach us how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinity? and think you not we are surest when we prai● in such a manner as they have taught?  R. 
That cannot be denied.  C. 
Then I pray you mark it, there is the voice of God the Father, 
Psal. 50.15.  Call upon me; there is the precept of God the Son, When you pray you shall say in this manner, Our Father which art in Heaven etc. there is again the voice of God the Holy Ghost, who when he teacheth us to pray, teacheth us, 
Rom. 8.  Cry abba, Father. What say you to these, is there any word here of prayer to Cherubin, or Seraphin? is there any warrant for turning over of all the prayers in the Psalm book to the Virgin Marie? O Lady that art my righteousness. Psal. 4. O Lady reprove me not in thy wrath. Psal. 6.  R 
Truly I can say nothing against them, for I see according to God's Word it is the surest and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ.  C. 
But now I will bring you one clear instance, to let you see how Papistry takes away Christ's intercession, and sets him idle in the Heavens.  R. 
What is that?  C. 
They say there is in Heaven, a King, God the Father; & a Queen the Virgin Marie; and that the King hath given to the Queen dimidium regni, 
Gab. Biel. in Cau. Miss. ●ect. 56.  the half of his Kingdom; the Ministration of justice he hath kept to himself; the Ministration of Mercy he hath given over to the Virgin Marie: such as seek justice go to the King of Heaven, such as seek Mercy go to the Queen, who also by her authority hath power to command her Son Christ jesus.  R. 
Good sooth these are too gross speeches, for as you have said, they make Christ idle in Heaven, or like a child under Tuition: for my own part I will keep that reverent estimation of the blessed Virgin, that is due to her: but will ever reserve to Christ the glory of a Saviour and Mediator.  C. 
Let it be so, only now I will let you see that as Papistry destroys many Articles of our Christian faith, concerning the person, and Offices of Christ: So it is a P●st of Commonwealths, losing all the bands of human fellowship and society.  R. 
That is strange: for there are many flourishing Kingdoms with unity and peace that profess Papistry.  R. 
Remember you what our Saviour says in the Parable. So long as the strong man keeps his house all is in quiet, but when a stronger than he comes in to bind him, there begins the battle: So long as Satan possessed the World by the darkness of Papistry, there was a miserable felicity in it, and a cursed unity, such as was in Sodom, where young and old from the four corners of the City conspired and agreed to one impiety: But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospel to illuminate his own with the light thereof, that which before seemed peace in Papistry, now appears to be a fir● come from Hell seeking to devour all such as forsake h●r errors, and embrace the truth of God.  R. 
ay, but that is a thing wherewith they charge the Gospel, that since it was preached, many Sects and Heresies are risen up in the world, which were not in it before.  C. 
I pray you consider what a Policy of Satan that is to disgrace the Gospel: how many Heresies arose in the Apostles days or soon after, that was not in the World before. Then came up Simon Magus, Cerinthus, Ebion, Martion, Basilides, Menander, Valentinus, Cerdon, Martion, and many more. Shall the Gospel be blamed for this? or rather may you not see it is the craft of the Devil to disgrace the Gospel?  R. 
Indeed I think it no good reason that the Gospel should be the less esteemed of. There is but one truth, but manifold errors; and I remember our Saviour warning us of thi● in that Parable of the Gospel; That where the good Husbanman sows good wheat in the day, incontinent comes the Enemy that evil one, and sows his popple in the night.  C. 
Now if you apply that to our present question, the doubt is easily solved: So long as the World was blinded with idolatry and the Mass (which in effect is but a Mass of Heresies) Satan lay quiet, he was not troubled in his Kingdom, and he raised no trouble in the World: but since the light of the Gospel discovered his darkness, and that he finds his Kingdom decaying, and himself falling by the preaching of the Gospel, now he bestirs himself more busily, and doth what he can to disgrace this glorious evangel by vile heresies of some that impugn it, and profane lives of others who profess it. But as you see, it is no reason why the Gospel should be blamed for any of these.  R. 
It is not indeed. But now you remember you began to discourse how Papistry is a Pest of commonwealths, Kingdoms, dissolving all the bands of human fellowship, and society among men.  C. 
Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions; It is llawfull to spoil an Heretic of his goods, 
Grat. Caus. 1●. 4. glossa.  meliùs tamen est quod avihoritate indicis fiat: though it were better to do it by authority of the judge. In their judgement all Protestants are Heretics, and so they make it lawful for Papists both to steal and reave from them.  R. 
That is strange indeed; and yet I have many times mar●a●led what should have moved the M●c gregors; and other Licentious Men of our Island▪ who knew no Religion, to profess Papistry, but now I see the reason of it; for it made their robbery good Christianity.  C. 
Here are other, Vxor catholica viro haeretico benevolum reddere non te●e●ur, 
Siman●h● Pacens. Ep̄isc●pus Institut. Gregor. 13. , that is to say in plain terms, a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due benevolence to her Husband being a Protestant.  R. 
That assertion is more shameless than the other, plain contrary (as I remember) to the Apoles' doctrine, 
1. Cor. 7.13.  Let not a Woman forsake her husband who believes not, if he be content to dwell with her.  C. 
You take it up very well, and you may see how Papistry breaks the band of fellowship between Husband and Wife.  R. 
I see it indeed, and this resolves me of an other doubt, for I have marveled often what should move so many Ladies to become Catholic Roman, but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wives as are malcontent with their Husbands, for it loses them from that subjection where unto God hath bound them.  C. 
Take the third: It disslolues the bands between the Father and the Son Pater qui filium habet haereticum, 
C●rd. Alan.  exhaereditare ten●tur● talem filium▪ A Father that is a Papist and hath ● Son that is a Protestant, he is bound to disinherit him. Again Pr●pter hear sin patris s●lij sunt sui juris, 
Siman●ha Ep●s. Pacens. Instit. Cathol. lib. 46. ●er. 74.  by the Heresy of the Father the Child● is fre●d from obedience.  R. 
Fie upon them that maintains such gross positions.  C. 
Y●t there is worse following. 
Caus. ●3 Quaesi. 8.  Haeretici f●i● vel consanguineinon dicantur, sed ●●x●alegem sit m●nus tua super eos, ut ●undas sanguinem ipsorum. Heretics may not be termed Children, nor Kinsmen, but according to the old Law thy hand must be upon them to spill their blood. There are all the bands of Nature, Affinity, Consanguinity, destroyed by Papistry, and they think it lawful for Papists to slay their own Children or their Kinsmen, if they be Protestants: What think you, is it good dwelling with such Vipers? and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them?  R. 
In good faith I am ashamed in their behalf, and I think it no marvel you call Papistry a Pest of commonwealths.  C. 
You shall hear but one and I will trouble you with no more. It dissolveth the band of subjection wherein people stand bound to their Princes: Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obs●quium. Popish Subjects may lawfully deny obedience to a Protestant King. Again, Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum: 
Bellar. lib. 5. the ●om. Po●ti●. cap. 6.7. & 4.  It is not lawful for Christians to tolerate an Heretical King, they may expel him, depose him, yea murder him: And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolic Doctrine.  R. 
Away with it, for it may rather be called a Doctrine of Devils, who is the Father of lies, Seditions, Divisions, and Murders.  C. 
And yet these are the common lessons, which are taught and practised by the Doctors, and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome. But how falsely they call this Doctrine Apostolic. Consider what was the Apostles Doctrine concerning the obedience of people unto their Kings. Read there what Saint Peter saith.  R. 
I perceive he bids honour the King, and commands the people to submit themselves unto the King as Superior, or unto Governors (under him.)  C. 
Very well: Tell me now who was King, and Supreme Governor when Peter wrote this, was it not Nero? a vile Monster, a bloody Persecutor, yet you see Peter bids not depose him, far less bids he kill him. Look again to the Fathers of the Primitive Church: see justine Martyr, 
Apol. ad Anton.  Deum solum adoramus, in aliis vobis inseruimus laeti, Imperatores & Principes honum esse prof●tentes, & simul precantes, ut cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque men●em obtinere comperiamini. We worship God only, in all other things we serve you with gladness, acknowledging you to be the Emperors, and Princes of men, praying also that with your Imperial power ye may have a sound mind. Here you see in all things, except in matter of God's Worship, Service professed to the Emperor, and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrary minded to Christianity, but no treason nei●her taught nor practised. The like hath Ignatius; 
Ad Antioch  Caesari sub●iti estote in iis, quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio: Be subject to Caesar in all things, wherein you may without peril of conscience: 
Lib. ad Sca●ul.  And Tertullian also, Co●imus Imperatorem ut ho●●inem a Deo secundum, solo Deo minorem: We reu●rence the Emperor as next and immediate under God, having none but God above him. Again, Christianis nullius est host is, 
Tertul. Apolog. c●p. ●8 29. & 30.  nediùm Imperatoris, quem sciens a Deo suo constitui, necesse est, ut & ipsum di●igat, & revereatur, & honoret, & salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio. A Christian is no man's Enemy, far less the emperors Enemy, he knows that he is placed by the Lord his God and therefore it cannot be but he must love him, reverence him, honour him, and wish his safety, and the welfare of the Empire. Let Papists now be ashamed to pretend either Apostles, or Apostolic men, as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine, whereby they teach their people to murder Princes, if they be contrary minded to them in Religion.  R. 
Do it if they will they have good cause.  C. 
Now (Sir) because to morrow is the Sabbath, if you please to go to the Church I will come and go with you.  R. 
I am very well content, and I thank you for it.   

THE SEVENTH, OR SABBATH days CONFERENCE. Wherein the order observed in the Church of SCOTLAND, is declared to be conform to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles, and practised in the Primitive Church.  C. 
GOod morrow (Sir) are you ready to go?  R. 
When you please.  C. 
What Church will ye go to or whom of the Preachers desire you to hear?  R. 
Make you the choice, I will accompany you.  C. 
Let us go then, because you are a ftranger: here you will pardon me to go before, and show you the way into the Church, and show you where you should sit.  R. 
I thank you for it. What is this the people are going to do?  C. 
They bow themselves before the Lord, to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy; which you will hear openly read out by the public reader. Now when it is done what think you of the prayer?  R. 
Truly I think there is no thing in it, but that whereunto every good Christian should say Amen: and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reverence, sighing and groaning, accompany the prayer up to God. But what go they now to do?  C. 
Every one is preparing (as you see) their Psalme-book, that all of them with one heart and mouth, may sing unto the Lord. There is the Psalm which the Reader hath proclaimed, if you please you may sing with them, or if you cannot follow them in your heart.  R. 
So I will. What doth the Reader now, is he making an other prayer?  C. 
No, yonder book which now he open is the Bible: you will hear him read some portion of holy Scripture. Understand you what he says?  R. 
Yea for sooth, well enough for he reads very distinctly.  C. 
These are the three exercises which are used in all our congregations, every Saboth one hour before the preacher come in, first prayer, than psalms then reading of holi● scripture● and by these the hearts of ●he people are prepared the more reverently to hear the word, & you see all is done with great quietness, devotion, and reverence.  R. 
I see that ind●ed.  C. 
We have no service h●re you see in a strange language the Preacher speaks, and the people prays in their mother tongue: but the new form of the Romish Church is to have all their divine service in the latin tongue.  R. 
Truly, I have ofttimes marveled at it▪ what should move them to make their prai●●● in a language the people understands not.  C. 
Vitalianus Bishop of Rome, was the first father of this novelty.  R. 
Put what are they doing now?  C. 
You hear the third Bell ringing, and in this space the reading ceaseth, and at the ●nd of the Bel ringing, the Preacher will come: But till the Preacher come in, read this place of the Apostle Saint Paul, and you shall see what was the old form used in the Primitive Church, and that ours is very agreeabie unto it, Read the 1 Corinth. 14. ver. 6.  
And now (Brethren) if I come unto you speaking divers tongues, what shall I profit you? except I speak to you either by Revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?  
7 Moreover things without life which give a sound, whether it be a pipe or a harp, except they make a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?  
8 And also if the Trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to battle?  
9 So likewise ye by the tongue, except you utter words that have signification, how shall it be known what is spoken? for you shall speak in the air.  
10 There are so many kinds of voices (as it cometh to pass) in the world, and none of them is dumb.  
11 Except I know then the power of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me.  
12 Even so, forasmuch as ye covet spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel unto the edifying of th● Church.  
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue, pray that he may interpret.  
14 For, if I pray in a strange tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit.  
15 What is it then? I will pr●y with the spirit, but I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.  
16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit, how shall he who occupieth the room of the unlearned, say, Amen: at the giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?  
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.  
18 I thank my God I speak languages more than ye all.  
19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speak five words with mine understanding, that I might also instruct others, than ten thousand wor●es in a straenge tongue. You see here that by the Apostles precept, the service of God in the public assemblies of th● Church, should be done in such a language as the people may understand.  R. 
I see it indeed.  C. 
Now if it like you for your further confirmation, I will show you how the same order, which this day is observed in our Church concerning the exercises of God's worship, was also observed in the Primitive Church nearest the Apostles days.  R. 
It likes me very well to hear it.  C. 
Then will I tell you it out of justin Maertyr.  R. 
What a Father was he? 
Apol. 2. ad Anton. Pi●m imperat   C. 
A very ancient and learned man, he lived in the year one hundred and fifty, and of a Philosopher was converted to be a Christian: he wrote to the Emp●rour and Senate of Rome, two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion: in the second of them so he writes, Die qui solis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis; vel agris morantur, unum in locum conveniunt, commentari●que Apostolorum, vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur, quandiu hora patitur, deinde ubi is qui legit destitit, is qui prae est admonet, & hortatur ut e● quae lecta sunt bona imitemur, tum surgimus omnes ac compre●●mur, conclusisqu● nostris precibus panis, vinum, & aquae offeruntur, tum is qui primum locum tenet ●odem modo preces, gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit, populusque bene dicit, dicens, Amen, & iis quae cum gr●tiarum actione consecrata sunt unusquisque participate, eadem ad eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur perferenda, Quibus copiae suppetunt, ij si volunt, quisque si●o arbitratu quod vult largitur, quodque colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur, isque pupillis, & viduis, & iis quos morbus, aliaue caeusa inopes fecit, & iis qui in vinculis sunt, & hospitib●s ●ubuenit. Upon that day which is called Sunday, all Christians resident in towns and villages assemble in one place, where the written Commentaries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an hour, the which being done, the Preacher or Precedent over the flock, admonisheth & exhorts us to follow the wholesome word read: then get we all up and pray together: our prayers being finished, bread, wine, and water are presented, and then the Preacher conceives fervent prayer and thanksgiving, and the people bless God, saying, Amen: then every one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thanksgiving, the same things also are given to the Deacons to be● conveyed to these who are absent: And such as have the things of this world contributes to the poor● as they please, and that which is collected, is given him in trust who is Precedent, & he therewith supports the widow, fatherless, & these whom sickness or any other cause hath made indigent, as also strangers, and these who are imprisoned. I might show you the like out of of Tertullian, in his Apology, adversus Gentes, Cap. 39 But now the time serves not.  R. 
It needs not for that place, you have brought from the Apostle, and this other from justin Mart●r, may let any man see the order & exercise, which Christians of the church Primitive observed in their holy assemblies for I see no other thing among them (as you said) but public reading of the word in a plain language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in, then public singing of Psalms by all the people, th●n preaching, prayer, and collection for the poor.  C. 
You take it up very well, and God be praised you see that same order among us: And you who have seen their service, & dumb guise of their Mass, their mumbling of prayers in the Latin tongue, and the unreverent profaning of the sabbath, that is among their people for la●ke of discipline, may soon discern that how soever they brag of an Apostolic Church, yet they have not kept the ancient Apostolic order.  R. 
It is true indeed, for if a man will go to a Papists church to hear Mass, he shall not discern what the Priest says, unless he vuderstand Latin, and I have many times thought strange of it.  C. 
But it falls out very well that so it should be: The first Babel for her proud usurpation, was punished with confusion of Languages, that when the builder spoke the people knew not what he craved; and justly is the like, Yea a worse plague, in so much as it is Spiritual powered out upon new Babel, for her intolerable presumption, that when their Priest speaks the people wots not what he says.  R. 
In truth it is a great blindness.  C. 
And so ye may say: for albeit they had no clear Divine warrant in the Word, yet considering that God by an extraordinary decree declared his will to themselves, it is strange they should not give place unto it.  R. 
Where have you that? 
Hist. Bohem. Cap. 13.   C. 
I find it in Aen●as Silvius their own man, that when the Slavonians sought licence from Pope Formosus that they might celebrated Divine Service in their own mother tongue, the matter being disputed in the Pope's Counsel, a voice was heard from Heaven saying, Omnis spiritus laudet Deum, & omnis lingua confiteatur illi: Let every Spirit praise the Lord, and all tongues confess him: Whereupon at that time that benefit was granted to the Slavonians: but think ye it not strange that it should be denied to other people?  R. 
I think so indeed, specially since the Lord hath declared his will so plainly both in his word, and in that extraordinary revelation. But we must let this alone, for there comes the Preacher. And now (I pray you) tell me how I should behave myself.  C. 
Trouble you not, do a● you see others beside you: for first he will conceiu● a Prayer, at the which the people humbles themselves; thereafter he reads his Text of Holy Scripture, this the people hear with reverence, than he falls to the preaching which some hear with their heads covered, some otherwise, (in that you may do as your health requires▪) the preaching being ended he concludes all with a thanksgiving, after which there is a Psalm sung by the whole Congregation, and then the Minister blesseth the people in the name of the Lord, and so dimits them: you will see no other thing here.  R. 
Well, I shall observe it the best I can.  C. 
Now what think of it?  R. 
In truth I think it a most comely and comfortable order, and I thank God, it is the best Sabbath day that ever I saw.  C. 
Considered you his Text, and how he opened it up?  R. 
Yea I have: Saint Paul in it makes m●ntion of his own conversion, and how he was receiu●d to mercy by Christ jesus, of whom he witnesseth h● came into the World to save sinners.  C. 
You heard him there declare, how the elect Children of God before their calling differ not in manners from reprobates, but when grac● comes it makes the difference, and causeth them to say with the Apostle, I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, an Idolater, etc. but now (thanks to God) I am not so.  R. 
I heard it very well, and from my heart I also give thanks to God, who hath received me to his mercy: for I was plunged in the darkness of Idolatry, beside many other filthy sins which oppressed me: but the Lord hath delivered me from them all, blessed be God for it. And I thank you (my dear Brother) who hath been an instrument of his grace toward me.  C. 
Nay (Sir) all thanks and praise be unto the Lord: he seeks and saves that which was lost, he reduceth his own from their wanderings, and gives life to them who were dead.   
FINIS.