A DIALOGUE, CONCERNING the strife of our Church: Wherein are answered divers of those unjust accusations, wherewith the godly preachers and professors of the Gospel, are falsely charged; with a brief declaration of some such monstrous abuses, as our Bishops have not been ashamed to foster.   printer's device of Robert Waldegrave, featuring a swan standing on a wreath, within a border of intertwined snakes: a man's head below (McKerrow 227) 
GOD IS MY HELPER  
GOD IS MY DEFENDER.  
AT LONDON; Printed by Robert Walde-graue, 1584.   

To the Christian Reader.  
GEntle reader, thou art not ignorant, that in this our Church of England, there hath been a schism for sundry years, which of late is grown so strong, that unless the Lord look upon us in great mercy, it will in short time bring forth a very lamentable desolation. Now, it is the part and duty of every true-harted Christian, to do his best both by hearty prayer and otherwise so far as his calling doth reach, to secure, aid, and support that side, which hath the truth. For this consideration have I bestowed my poor travel in writing this little dialogue. In which I have as faithfully as I can, set down the greatest accusations, and most usual crimes, that have any colour, which are slanderously cast forth, and laid to the charge of God's faithful messengers: with a short answer to show the vanity of the same. On the other side, I have lightly touched as it were, the heads or fountains of divers corruptions, maintained by the contrary part, which are so gross & manifest, that he which shall say he knoweth not of them, may well be suspected for untruth: and he that shall defend them, must put on his forehead of brass. My suit unto thee, gentle reader, is no more but this, that thou wilt well weigh, and judge uprightly, which part follow the steps of the blessed Apostles, and so be the true ministers of jesus christ. I know right well, some will be offended at this kind of dealing, and say it is hurtful. But unless I would be unfaithful to my Lord and master jesus Christ, undutiful to his poor Church, and disloyal to my sovereign prince, whatsoever I am bound to do more, I can with safe conscience do no less, than I have here done. Some will say these are but words, and who can not easily make the like pretence for any matter whatsoever. I will therefore note some particular causes, to show the truth of my words. He that will be the faithful servant of jesus Christ, must stand for the maintenance of the Gospel, and not hold his tongue when the course thereof is stayed and hindered. But the preachers are so plentiful, will some man say, that although here and there a few which will not conform themselves, be put to silence, yet the course of the gospel is not hindered. I would to God a true survey were made, that first all those which have faithfully laboured, whom they term Puritans, being set aside, they would take the view and number of such as have great titles and rooms, and yet feed not any flocks of sheep or lambs: and in the next place set those which apply all their great learning, to get livings and dignities, not caring for souls: as namely to heap benefice upon benefice, to seek to be Archdeacon's, Deans, and bishops: For these seek after the things which are their own, and not the things which are Christ's: these serve not the Lord jesus, but their own belly: and though they can speak like angels, yet the Church shall not be blessed by them. For they are not sent of God, they be not the ministers of jesus Christ, by whom he will advance his Gospel. If ye can also number those which go under the names of Preachers, and do either so seldom, so slenderly, and unskilfully teach, that their people are never the better. And in the last rank place the unable men, with those of spotted life: I warrant ye the remnant will be Methemispar, as the scripture speaketh. There shall need no Arithmetrician to take the account. Now to the second point.  
When God hath prepared the heavenly Manna, and appointed to his Church that she should eat her fill thereof, even to the fatting of her soul, to make her lively and strong: and that her Children & babes may suck from her breasts the sincere milk of the word: Who is there that hath a mind touched with any care of duty and service towards her, that can hold his peace, and not complain in her behalf, when she is denied her right, in being debarred of this heavenly bread, or at the least so stinted and scanted, that she can scarce have sufficient to preserve life. Solomon saith, that the righteous man considereth the soul of his beast, whereas the bowels of the wicked are cruelty. A righteous man can not behold an Ox, or an Horse pining to death for want of food, but that the mournful voice of the Dumb Beast will strike his heart, and move compassion: and shall not the heart of a righteous man bleed? shall not his rains prick? shall it not kindle and burst out as a fire in him, shall he not lament with pity, when he beholdeth the Lady and mistress of the world, the lambs wife, even the very dear spouse to him that is Lord of Lords, deprived of her daily food? Can any true Christian man, with dry eyes look upon the leanness and paleness of her face, the feebleness of her joints, and weakness of her body? Her beauty should be so excellent, and her majesty so great, that she should be a terror to those enemies which now despise and mock her. Let them keep silence that can, all good men will speak and speak again in her behalf: yea, even against those bishops which do her this great wrong, and seek to destroy her children with famine. The blessed Apostle S. Paul, whose care was as tender over the weak ones of the Church, as the care of any mother towards the babe that sucketh upon her breasts, 
2. Cor. 11.  saith Who is offended and I burn not? If there be any sparkle of his spirit in a man, how can he but burn, beholding at this day, so many weak ones to stumble? both men and women, young and old, in many places, which had received some taste of the word, and began as green plants to bud being continually watered by Apollo: Now following the drought as it were of an hot Summer, the silver dews being restrained from dropping upon them, and the fountains of living waters shut up, do whither away: yea, many are made to stagger, and doubt whether it were a true gospel that was preached unto them. For say they, if it were good, how should any learned man go about to withhold it, or to put those to silence that publish it? For the third point, is there any man ignorant, how manifold treasons are practised by the papists, even like greedy bloud-houndes of hell, which thirst for the very heart blood of our sovereign Queen? what continueth them still in hope to bring their purpose to pass after so many repulses? Is it the goodness of their cause: no, it is the ignorance and blindness of the untaught multitude, in which their might is reposed. These night birds, know right well, that where the Sun shineth, there is small place for them. Let the people be taught to know wholesome doctrine, and they will never abide the rotten drugs of these Romish Apothecaries. Let them see the light, and be taught out of the blessed word, that it is damnation to those that rebel against their Prince, yea, though it be but a disloyal mind, & no outward thing practised. Let them feel what blessing is come unto them, by a Christian Mother in Israel, a nurse of God's Church, and that they are deeply bound, not only upon their knees to power out plentiful prayers unto God for her: but also, that it is their duty to adventure their lives for her defence: and you shall have them far from giving ear unto traitorous persuasions of jesuits, and seminary Priests. Behold, for this cause, how those that are known favourers of the Romish Religion, do now bestir them, to throw down the Preachers, by procuring matters of complaint against them unto the bishops. If this dishonour be not done unto Christ, which I have mentioned, this injury to his poor Church, and danger to our sovereign Queen, by heartening and strengthening the hands of her enemies: let this my doing be counted seditious, as I am out of doubt, some will not stick very maliciously to term it. But if it be as I have said, and as many thousands with grief do behold, and can witness (by whom let me be tried, and accounted shameless if I lie) than I crave, that I may not be blamed for speaking in so weighty causes, but even a little of those things which all the Servants of God ought to cry out of: But to what purpose, or where shall there be redress fought for? O ye Bishops, even in this, repent, repent, repent in time that GOD may have mercy upon ye. Will ye be offended with him that shall give ye wholesome counsel? or will ye say that ye are wrongfully charged? good counsel ye will say is never to be rejected, then may it easily be proved, that ye stand in need of it. To let other things pass, ought not the ministers of the Gospel to be patterns and examples unto the flock both in wholesome doctrine and godly conversation? aught they not to be the lights of the world, and the salt of the earth, to season the hearts of the people with spiritual graces, & to shine unto them as stars, that they may see the paths of life? aught they not to feed the lords flock with the bread of life, to lead them into the green pastures, and unto the streams of living waters? aught they not to seek up that which goeth astray, to heal that which is diseased, and to carry the tender Lambs in their bosom? are your ministers with whom ye have filled the church such? or will ye seek for excuses to make your fault light? surely if ye do not repent, ye cannot be saved. God doth not respect the persons of men. Will ye repent at the last, and leave the thing unreformed when ye die? what repentance will that be? will ye make your prayers unto God, and will he hear them? your garments being full of blood, even the blood of many souls that perish for want of food: ye would have those that be ignorant and wallow in their sins to be counted Christians, that it might not be known, that the want of teaching destroyeth souls. But the word of the Lord will be too strong for ye, which teacheth manifestly the necessity thereof. Are ye ashamed to be reproved by your inferiors, when your sin is manifest? It is a shame to continue, but no shame at all for a man to amend his fault. Do ye count it a discredit to yield any thing at all unto those which are your inferiors, & have also their infirmities? count it no discredit to relent & yield unto the word of God, which is free from all impurity. Look not upon the offences of any that reprove ye, neither be delighted to hear slanderous things of them: For their sins shall be no help at all to cover yours before God, howsoever ye may make them some pretence of your doings before men. The Lord God of his mercy open your eyes, and take pity of his desolate people. Amen.   

A Dialogue concerning the strife of our Church.  

The Speakers:  
Orthodoxos, a Divine.  
Philodoxos, a Lawyer.  
Philochrematos, a bishops Chaplain.  
Philedonos, an Inne-holder.   Philedonos. 
GEntlemen, ye be all heartily welcome; I pray you be as merry as though your cheer were greater. If we had better, ye should have better: but I hope ye will be content with such as God sendeth.  Philochrematos. 
Our cheer doth content us very well mine host, we do thank ye for it.  Philedonos. 
I could teem it were better: but surely In-keeping is cold in sundry places over it hath been, & that causeth us to make slender provision.  Philoch. 
How should that be, ther be as many travelers as ever there were.  Philedonos. 
Oh sir, I grant ye: but our chief gain hereabout doth not stand in that, I have known when a dozen or sixteen Gentlemen and wealthy yeomen have met together, and made merry four or five days, or a week, at cards or Bowls, as the time did serve. Now all good fellowship is laid aside, the world is waxen stark nought.  Philochrematos. 
In deed that was a good help to inn-holders, and I think it be much left in many places, men wax more covetous & worldly, they have not the care they had to maintain love & friendship.  Philedonos. 
I cannot tell whether they be more covetous: but there be so many newfangled Preachers, it is great pity that they be suffered: they mar all, for they destroy all good housekeeping.  Philocrematos. 
It is very true: I have known as much meat spent in one house at a Christmas, as is now spent in three, a lamentable thing, the poor do rue it.  Philedonos. 
They keep small hospitality themselves, and not content with that, they preach and cry out against it in other men, I am unlearned, but yet I think a preacher should keep good hospitality, and commend it in others.  Philocrematos. 
Nay ye say true, for the apostle willeth them to be harberouse. 1. Tim. 3.  Orthodoxos. 
Ye do not well, to sooth and uphold mine host in his evil speeches, for he doth show himself to be a very gross and carnal man: he is all for the lusts & pleasures of the flesh, void of the true knowledge of God, not having any taste of spiritual things, one of those which (as the Scripture saith) make their belly their God.  Philodoxos. 
Ye mistake mine host, ye do him great wrong, to give such severe and sharp sentence against him: I observed and weighed all his speeches, so far as I can conceive, he uttered nothing worthy rebuke: he complaineth, and I warrant ye, not without cause, the Inholders have small resort, the good housekeeping is decayed, & men be newfangled and over precise, do ye not think they are to be blamed, as those which do more hurt then good? I suppose ye are not of that mind, but that ye do allow Innekéeping to be a lawful and honest vocation, than ye must also allow them, to seek such gain as that they may live. They pay great hous-rent, bedding & other furniture is very costly. In a word, they buy all things dear. How shall they be able to keep open there doors, if it be not lawful for men to meet together, to spend their time in honest recreation? It doth nourish friendship. I am bold to speak in defence of mine Host: If he had any worse meaning, I am deceived.  Orthodox. 
I do not think that his meaning was worse than yours: neither doth that colour of words which you go about to colour it with all, hide the nakedness thereof: so far off is it, from proving his meaning or yours to be good, having scarce a show of reason.  Philodoxos. 
If there be scarce a show of reason in my speech, you may the more easily confute it. But it will be harder for you to excuse your uncharitable & severe damning of men, then for me to maintain my saying.  Orthodox. 
Because I said mine Host is a carnal man, without the knowledge of God, one that is all for the lusts and pleasures of the flesh, one of those which make their belly their God: Ye say I do uncharitably damn men, Ye did not hear me pronounce a final sentence upon him: But if he continue in the case he is now in, there is no doubt. Let his own words give evidence. He said the world is waxed stark nought, because men do not meet together, to drink and play as they were wont. The Prophet saith, Woe be unto those which call good evil, 
isaiah 5.5.  and evil good. The Lord condemneth drunkenness, and gluttony, Idleness, misspending the time, vain speeches, railing, fretting, quarreling, swearing, coveting other men's goods, undoing and beggaring Wife and Children, by spending their substance: all these things are rife, and overflow among those which do meet together at play: When the Lord saith these things be evil, and mine Host saith the world is nought for learning them: Is it not plain that he is a carnal man, and knoweth not God. You colour it, and say Inholders sit at a great rent, and pay dear for all things, and they must live. If you did know or consider, how cursed a thing it is to gather goods by such means, you would confess it were a thousand fold better for to beg. He saith the Preachers which cry out against such things be newfangled, is he not thereby apparently known to be a belly God. You would feign help him, and ye say, if men be new fangled and over precise: are they not to be blamed? Yes no doubt. But you must show that it is to be newfangled and over precise, for to publish the holy word of God, against such filthy vices. Ye say all of ye, that good house keeping doth decay, and the poor they rue it. The house keeping which you mean, is that confused riot, where there is abundance of meat and drink, spent even as well as if it were cast unto the Dogs. Some rich man doth keep open house for twelve days, there gather all the idle unthrifts, even the scum & dregs of the people: There is such revel night and day, that if a man that hath a godly mind come in, he doth think he cometh into a little hell. The good creatures of God are wasted upon most filthy persons. Some man doth lose so much at Cards, that his wife and his children do far hardly a month after. The poor may rue that there is more cast away in one day, then would serve them a whole week. The Preachers they keep not Hospitality (saith mine Host) because they do not follow this order: and because sundry have not the wealth to do it. And thus mine Host and those which be jump of his religion, do cry out still to have the paunch filled. If they may have one which will make them good cheer, though he never minister unto them any spiritual food, yet they are abundantly satisfied & contented. But if he bring the food of the soul never so plentifully unto them, and not able to do the other, they make no reckoning thereof: Which doth most plainly show, that they are such as Christ spoke unto, john. 6. which sought him because he had fed their bellies. And as for the friendship which is gotten and nourished by meeting at play: It is small friendship when they fall to it by the ears. If they do agree, yet the love and friendship which is tied together with such cords, is but in the flesh, and not that holy and spiritual love which God requireth of Christians.  Philodoxos. 
I did demand indeed, if they be not to be blamed, which are new fangled, and over precise, as those which do more hurt then good? I would it were not so easy to prove as it is, that they do more hurt than good, by being not only over precise, and new fangled: but rash and undiscreet yea (if ye will) ungodly. And why? Because they preach against such filthy vices and publish the holy word of God? No Sir, that is good. Ye may not put me to prove them therefore to be in fault. No man will say they do hurt thereby. But this is undiscreet, and worthy blame, that while they make sharp invectives against the abuses, they utterly condemn the things themselves which are indifferent and lawful. Because some when they play, do fret and swear, they will allow no man to do it: Some do for covetousness, reprove those: Others do it to pass away the time in honest recreation, not for any hurt, Why should they be blamed, now while they thus condemn the things themselves, and stay not in reproving the abuses: it causeth questions and contentions, and breach of charity among the people. This is a sore wound in a common wealth, Where the subjects are to be kept in unity one with an other.  Orthodoxos. 
The jews took up stones to stone our saviour Christ, and when he answered and said, Many good works have I showed among ye from my father, 
john. 10.  for which of them do ye stone me? They had their excuse ready, For thy good works we stone thee not, but for thy blasphemy, that thou being a man, makest thyself God. Such is the excuse and pretence which you and others make against the Preachers of the Gospel, let them preach the word in God's name, that is good: Let them also beat down vice, we can not blame them therefore: But we blame them that they deal rashly, in condemning things lawful. Well, let it be granted, that to play at cards and dice, is a thing of itself indifferent and lawful: Yet it must (before the use thereof can be free) be demanded whether it be expedient, If there come much hurt by it many ways? Is it meet that men for their pleasure should use it? Will it bear us out for a carnal recreation, to destroy the glory of God, and the bodies and souls of men? Shall men for that little good, which they imagine to reap thereby, sow and plant a multitude of shameful vices? But you put a difference, though some abuse play, yet other use it rightly: Who are they which use it rightly? Are they not the Godly and the wisest? Shall not then their example hearten and harden the other in their wicked abuses? Is not this the common defence, such a man is a wise man, & a learned man, he playeth, would he play if it were not good? thus for their pleasure they throw down the honour of god, while they give strength unto others. We ought to forego a far greater matter than pleasure, rather than vice should be encouraged, and men's souls destroyed by your occasion. It is a foolish cavil which men use against this: Many say they are drunkards & gluttons: many abuse their apparel: therefore we may not eat nor drink, nor put on clothes, if it be so, lest we do bolden them in their sin. That is nothing like, for these things are such as can not be spared: those other may be forborn yet no man the worse, there would be no questions nor contentions, nor breach of charity among the people for this matter, if the multitude were not more zealous in the defence of their carnal lusts and pleasures, than they be for the honour of God: but when ye say the preachers, which beat down such things are ungodly, ye do therein very grossly overshoot yourself.  Philedonos. 
I marvel why they should make themselves more holy than others? I know sundry grave Divines, other manner of men than any of them be, which will take their recreation, when time serveth among their honest neighbours. I wisse they are more precise than wise.  Orthodoxos. 
Indeed mine host, there be too many of those grave divines, which bestow more hours upon the alebench, at Mumchance or at Maw, than they do in catechising their people. In deed such as these, are they, by whom you are most edified: they are other manner of men for your turn, than such as both by doctrine and conversation overthrow ungodly riot: but I will leave you in your wise judgement, and hear what this Gentleman will answer.  Philodoxos. 
I did not grossly overshoot myself, in terming them ungodly, if there were any grossness, it was in your understanding, and not in my words: for it was not my meaning that they are wicked, only because they condemn such things: they have other faults besides that, doth not the Scripture pronounce them wicked, which disobey their Prince, do not these utterly refuse to obey the prince's Laws? shall we term them good, when the word of God proveth them to be evil.  Orthodoxos. 
The pharisees reason thus against Christ jesus, this man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath: this is a most sure principle, that he which breaketh the Sabbath is not of God: they thought themselves cocksure, that he observed not the sabbath, because he healed upon it, but therein they erred. The papists use this, which is an unfalllble truth against those which profess the Gospel: they be all heretics and Sismatiques which separate themselves from the Church of Christ: but when they should prove that those which forsake the Church of Rome, forsake the true Church, therein they are graveled: the same kind of reasoning, do you and such as you are, use against the ministers of Christ: they be wicked say you, which disobey Princes: who denieth that? the authority and power of Princes is of God. He that resisteth the power, 
Rom. 13.  resisteth God: and so doth procure to himself damnation: But now show your cunning in this point, to prove that those are disobedient unto Princes, against whom you speak.  Philodoxos. 
There needeth no great cunning for that matter, for the thing itself is manifest, do not the Laws of this realm command diverse things, and are there not sundry which refuse to do them? therefore they be disobedient unto princes.  Orthodoxos. 
I cannot tell how great knowledge, ye have in the law: but your skill in Logic is small, and less in divinity, if ye maintain and hold this for a necessary consequence or conclusion, they be disobedient unto Princes, because they refuse to do some things which are commanded by the law. For put case a most Godly and Christian Prince, with grave and wise Counsellors do set forth and establish some things which agree not with God's word, and yet they suppose that the same things are agreeable unto the word. For what Princes or counsellors are so wise, but that they may fail in some points? Shall a man then which doth see a thing commanded by the law, to be against the word, and therefore doth refuse to do it, be counted disobedient to Princes? Do not you know that which the Apostle teacheth. Acts. 4. We must obey God rather than men? Do not you know also, that although the thing be lawful which is commanded, and a man through want of skill, or weakness of conscience, doth fear & doubt that the same thing is evil, and yet doth it, that he condemneth himself in his deed, according to the doctrine which S, Paul teacheth. Rom. 14. ver. 23.  Philodoxos. 
You charge me with unskilfulness, because of that conclusion which I made. But I doubt ye will not very easily disprove the necessity of the consequence: for if these be not coniugata, Disobedience and to disobey, I know not what are. You colour the matter with this, that we must obey only in things which are not repugnant unto God's word: who shall be judge in these cases, or to which part shall men give credit? All the wisest in the land, and chief in learning do assemble in parliament, and with all the care and advise they can, make and establish laws. Now when they have done, a few other, and far inferior unto them, shall mislike, & undo that which they have done: These shall take upon them to control the Nobility, the judges and Bishops of the land, and to be wiser than all they: would so many Godly learned Fathers set out any thing that is not sound? It is very absurd, if men had any wisdom or discretion in them, for to discern. If we shall not trust those other, shall we trust them? why should not they be satisfied? why should they be more precise or scrupulous, than their betters? It is a wilfulness in them. It is pity there is no sharper punishment to compel them.  Orthodoxos. 
I confess that disobedience, and to disobey be Coniugata: but yet it is easy enough to disprove the necessity of your argument. For there is no disobedience, but where a man refuseth to obey, in things that are good: Where God enjoineth no obedience, there can be no disobedience by refusing. As for example, some prince doth command his subjects to worship Idols, or some other thing which God doth forbid them: they refuse to do it, not of stubbornness but of conscience towards God: will ye say they be disobedient? but you see well enough that this weapon will not serve, and therefore ye are content to cast it down, and to retire yourself into a strong hold, as you imagine. For who shall judge of matters whether they be according to gods word (say you) which part shall we believe? What are ye a Papist? Ye run into the same hold that they do when they fight. They demand in like sort who shall judge, & which part is worthier of credit? If we shall confess your argument to be good and sound, how shall we deny it when it cometh from them bombasted and set forth with greater might? For when you say, all the wisest and learnedest, of Nobility, judges, and bishops have done it, how shall a few inferior persons control them or be wiser than they? Will they allow that which is not agreeable unto God's word? Then the Papists may say, when as their religion hath been established by all the wisest Princes, Bishops, and Counsellors, with so general consent of so many ages, not of one Realm, but assembled out of a great sort of Countries and Provinces: How shall a few (for the Nobles, judges, Bishops, and others in a Parliament holden in one kingdom are but a few unto their multitude) control them? If twenty or thirty learned bishops in one Land assembled together, can not set forth or allow any thing but that which is good, how shall four or five hundred choice Fathers out of all countries be overseen? Oh sir, if this were a good reason, the Gospel might lie in the dust: If it be good with us, why should it not be good when the Papists do use it? Especially when they have more right unto it, because their multitude hath been far greater. How wise you and many other which use this argument, do take yourselves to be. I pray ye did ye not use it in the days of Queen Marie? will you refuse to go unto the mass? will you be wiser than the Queen & the Counsel, & all the learned Bishops? Doubtless in this point ye are very wise, that ye have laid a foundation that will bear any frame. ye may go through all times, and changes of religion. For whatsoever a Parliament doth set up, ye will have it by and by no further examined.  Philodoxos. 
The general counsels of the Papists are not like the Parliament: neither do ye well to compare them so together. For they looked to man's inventions, but our Bishops have regarded only the word of God.  Orthodoxos. 
Let that be some difference, as in deed God be blessed there is great difference, albeit the Popish Bishops professed to do all by the word. Yet nevertheless you must prove that thirty or forty learned Bishops looking only to the word of God, can not swerver in any thing from truth, before this can follow, that no part of their doings may be controwled.  Philodoxos. 
Ye do not hear me say that no part of their doing may be controwled: but I say this, when so many grave learned bishops have decreed it, shall it be controwled by a few green and light heads? Can those which are nothing so many nor so learned, nor in no respect to be esteemed so much, see more than they? It is like as if all the judges in the Land had agreed upon a case, and an utter barester or one which hath studied the Laws, but two or three years; should control them.  Orthodoxos. 
Ye liken it as if all the judges in the Land had agreed upon a Case, and then a very young Studente in the Law, should take upon him to control them all: when a few (as you say) green heads, refuse to do every thing that the bishops conclude upon. I know it is a strange thing and incredible, that all the judges in the land should miss in a Case, and not be able to see that which some one of small knowledge should see: but yet ye must know, that the Case is not altogether like in heavenly matters, which men can not reach unto by study & wit, as they do unto earthly, but where God doth inwardly lighten & teach by his spirit. Now God hath not tied himself unto multitude, nor unto years, but where it pleaseth him to reveal: and therefore one poor man bringing reason and authority out of the holy Scriptures, is more to be esteemed, than ten thousand great Bishops, standing upon their consent without warrant of the word. The Priests in the law boldened themselves with the like reason, to consult to strike jeremias: 
jerem. 18.  The law (say they) shall not perish from the Priest, and counsel from the wise, and the word from the Prophet. In like manner worldly wise men do securely blind themselves, hanging their faith upon probability, and not searching deeply into the matter. Again ye do falsely and untruly in your comparison, to liken the one part as it were to all the judges in the land, & the other to a young student in the law. For, set the Papists a side, & the multitude of learned men against whom you speak, are more in number than all the bishops, Deans, Archdeacon's and bishop's Chaplains in this land. For ye must look upon the faithful servants of God in other Lands. If ye respect learning, there are none in our Land (but such as are impudent) that will compare with some of them.  Philodoxos. 
Why should not we think there be as many learned men of our land, as in any other?  Orthodoxos. 
God be blessed there be great learned men in our land, but yet I doubt not but they will confess, that the Lord raised up some in other Lands, whom he made the chief and principal Instruments to restore his Gospel, the fruit of whose labours, doth spread so far, that in all Churches, they are famous: yea there is no one man which is a true minister of jesus Christ, but he hath just cause to bless and praise God for them: Such was M. Luther, M. calvin, M. Beza, M. Tremellius and others. I know in deed there be of our men, whom the Church might spare well enough for any good they ever did unto it, which will not stick to compare with the best of these, & to take themselves rather to be their superiors. Other men will so esteem of them also, when they have approved themselves to be such faithful servants of Christ, and have done the like good to the Church, that those other did: in the mean time every wise man will judge as he findeth.  Philodoxos. 
I know these whom you name are famous men, but what have they to do with our church?  Orthodoxos. 
Have you got that by the end also? surely I cannot tell what other men may judge: but in my judgement, it is a very profane and a very wicked saying. Is there any God but one? any faith but one? any Church but one? Is not the whole Church in all places in the world God's family? Hath he not given one book of the holy & sacred scriptures to teach and govern the same, & every part thereof? Were not those men principal Instruments of the Lord, to expound and open the mysteries of God unto his church? did they not teach & declare the counsels of God only out of his word? Is our church then the Church of Christ, and hath their doctrine nothing to do with it?  Philodoxos. 
I know right well, that their doctrine which they teach out of God's word, which is the doctrine of faith, doth belong indifferently to the whole Church. Because as you say, there is but one Church, and one faith. But in some external matters one Church may differ from an other. And in that respect, every Church is not tied to the outward form of the Church at Geneva, in every particular. There be circumstances of persons, times and places which may make some variance.  Orthodoxos. 
One Church may differ from an other in some external matter: let that be granted, as I know not who doth deny it. Is that a sufficient cause for men to say, what hath master calvin or master Beza or others to do with our Church? Have not the excellent servants of God, taught that point also by the Scriptures, which you speak off, that churches may vary in some external matters? How then can it be said that our Church hath nothing to do with their doctrine? I do not speak as though we were to depend upon men, further than they prove their doctrine by the holy Scriptures. But when God hath raised up special instruments, and made them lights to his people, it must needs proceed from a vile mind to say, what have they to do with our Church? Such men's fingers are to be looked unto, as those which are not to be put in trust with the Spouse of Christ. For this is out of all doubt, that as those other are manifested unto the world to be rare and special servants of God, for the service of his son, and salvation of his people: so these by demanding so disdainfully what they have to do with our Church, give manifest cause of suspicion, that they be none of God's household. For either they must prove that those excellent men, did not deal faithfully in God's matters (which they shall never be able to do) or else confess themselves to be untrusty. Who is so foolish, but that he can see when such as with the mighty power of God's spirit have spread the light of the Gospel, and thrown down the Kingdom of Antichrist, are rejected or little set by, that there is no faithful mind, especially when it is by those which themselves do hurt and no good, to the furtherance of men's salvation.  Philochrematos. 
Gentleman, by your patience, may it please you to let me answer, not that I think you unable to confute such frivolous speech, but because I am pricked, and can hold no longer. I would feign know who they are whom you mean, which do hurt, & no good, in our Church. If you mean the chief of the clergy, God be thanked your slanderous tongue is not able to discredit them: they are well known to be grave, wise, learned, and Godly, and therefore of all others do the most good, and the least hurt in the Church. If ye mean the Puritans or Precisians, all wise men will agree with you: for in deed it can not be showed that they do any good, but I am able to prove, that they do much hurt: for they be Schismatics, and make division in the Church, a thing much to be abhorred of all godly minds: they are the cause that there be so many Papists, for what maketh them to be offended, and to refuse to come to the Church, but this that we do not agree among ourselves, but these are not those whom you mean.  Orthodoxos. 
I see you take it in great snuff, that I said, there are which do hurt and no good in the Church. You would know whom I mean: But it must needs be meant (as you take it) either of the chief of the Clergy, or else of those whom you term Puritans and Precisians. For the first ye say they be well known to be grave, wise, learned and Godly. I suppose by the chief of the Clergy, you mean Bishops, Deans, and Archdeacon's, and Bishops chaplains, And so you come in the number yourself, being a Bishop's Chaplain. I do suppose that the greatest part of these are grave and learned, and it were a very lamentable thing that none of them should be Godly. I do verily suppose, that among these there be some which are not so drowned with covetousness and ambition, but that they have their special care for the advancement of God's Gospel, and the salvation of men's souls: But will ye therefore clear and justify all? But as for the Puritans and Precisians, ye say they do no good, and you can prove they do much hurt. You do also show, wherein they be Schismatics, and make division in the Church. They give offence to the Papists. No doubt these be abominable vices, and those that be guilty of them, the woe and curse of God doth hang over their heads. But your bare affirmation may not carry away the matter, you must prove those men to be such, whom you call Puritans.  Philochrematos. 
It is a sore matter which ye put me unto. I pray ye what need is there of any further proof, when the thing is evident to all the world? Who doth not see that there is a Schism in our Church, both among ministers and people? Who doth not see who are the cause of it? When a Church is established, and there doth arise contention therein: are those the Schismatics which defend the state and would have it quiet: or those which raise up unquietness? Do the chief Prelates make the Schism in our Church, or the Puritans? It is well known that they labour to have it in peace, but these other are the cause of unquietness.  Orthodoxos. 
You make very light of the matter, as a thing so evident, that there needeth no proof. And to make the evidency appear, ye take this for your ground, that where a Church is established, those which defend the state thereof to hold it in quiet can not be Schismatics. On the contrary part: those which make any unquietness to the state thereof, can not but be Schismatics. If ye will have no further consideration but so, then surely master Luther, master calvin, and others, are justly charged by the Papists to be Schismatics. For there was a state established: the Pope & his Prelates were desirous to hold it in quiet. The other part ye know did disquiet it. Yet nevertheless every one which hath any true knowledge of God will confess, that the Pope and his Cardinals are the schismatics, and that the other were Gods true servants. And why? He is the Schismatic which doth departed from the truth and maintain corruption, although it be with never so great pretence of peace and quietness. For shall there be peace against God? Shall there be peace against the truth? Shall there be peace to the destruction of men's souls, and laying waist of the church? On the other side, shall those be called Schismatics, which stand for the truth, which seek the salvation of men's souls? ye must bring better stuff, unless ye will fight as the Papists do.  Philochrematos. 
This comparison which you make, is very unequal: for the state of our Church is not like the state of the Church of Rome? We have the Gospel established and sincerely taught, there is Idolatry and all kind of false doctrine set forth and maintained. The Pope with his Cardinals and Bishops be the Schismatics, because they maintain that which is ungodly, and go against the truth. And therefore they do lewdly and unjustly charge master Luther, master calvin, and the rest to be Schismatics, which in deed set forth the truth. And therefore I say still, they be Schismatics which trouble and disturb the unity & peace of that Church, where the Gospel is purely taught. It is you that must bring better stuff, such as you are, do rather conspire with the Papists, to reason as they do: and to fight with such weapons as they do.  Orthodoxos. 
Ye do me wrong, in saying that I compare the state of our Church, with the Church of Rome. For they maintain Idolatry and false doctrine, as you have truly said, and we have the Gospel established and sincerely taught. A brought in the Church of Rome, but as an example, to show that they are not always Schismatics which go against the state of a Church: neither are they always to be excused as free from Schism, which maintain unity and peace. For I pray ye tell me, if in a Church there be foul abuses, and such as are intolerable, as bringing hazard both to the Church and common wealth, one part cry out against them, an other part defend and cherish them, who are the Schismatics? True it is, there would be no stir, if none did find fault. But will ye say they be Schismatics, which do publish the truth, to throw down falsehood? Or will ye say those are no Schismatics which do withstand and fight against the truth, because they would have an unity and quiet estate?  Philochrematos. 
I do grant that where there are intolerable corruptions, those are Schismatics which do maintain the same. Because they make a rent from God and from his truth, howsoever they be at unity amongst themselves. I do also confess that it is the part of every Godly Preacher, in due time and place, and in good sort to reprove such corruptions, and although there should be a Schism by that means, yet they are not to be accounted Schismatics, for they have done but their duty. But what is this to the purpose? Doth this discharge our Puritans from Schism? Our Church hath no such abuses. They be but toys and trifles which they strive about. It is a great wickedness for men to make a broil, and strive in the Church about matters of no importance. It were much better for them to employ themselves to teach the people to know their duty.  Orthodox. 
I am fully of your mind in this point, that it is a great wickedness for men to make any broil in the Church for trifles and matters of no importance, the peace of the Church ought to be dear unto men. And I do not think there is any Church which is so pure in doctrine and government, but it hath some little spots. You do also grant as much as I do require, when ye say those are Schismatics which maintain intolerable corruptions: and such as reprove them do but their duty. For it must follow that some of our chief Prelates do bring in and maintain intolerable abuses, that they be the Schismatics and the cause of all mischief in our Church: and then the Precisian as you term him, doth but discharge his duty in finding fault.  Philochrematos. 
I told ye before, and I tell ye again, and again I do affirm it, that they be trifles which our Puritans do strive about. If you can show any intolerable corruption which our law doth establish, ye say somewhat For our chief Prelates maintain nothing but the laws.  Orthodoxos. 
You tell me they be trifles, when I know that your tongue can tell nothing but truth. I will believe ye. Ye would have me show any such abuse established by our law, as is intolerable. I tell ye flatly my judgement is this, that the very ground and substance of our laws is the word of God. And that the very mind and intent of the law is, that whatsoever is against God and his word, should be thrown down. And I do not take that man to judge so dutifully, as he ought to do of his Prince and noble Counsellors, which doth not think that their whole purpose was to set up God's truth, and to throw down wickedness: and therefore made such laws as did tend to that effect. And also I am persuaded, that the gross abuses in our Church, are either by neglect of the laws, or else by perverting the true meaning of the laws, by some of those which should put them in execution. Will not you affirm that our laws have this mind and equity in them, that nothing should be which is against the manifest word of God, and which destroyeth his Church, for the maintenance whereof in deed, our laws were established?  Philochrematos. 
What if I affirm that our laws have this mind and equity in them, that nothing should be, which is against the manifest word of God, or which destroyeth his Church, as in deed I do affirm? What can ye gather thereby, but only this which maketh flatly against ye: That look how much more Godly the laws are, so much greater is their offence in disobeying them.  Orthodoxos. 
That which you say is true, the more Godly the laws are, the more is the offence of those which disobey them. But give me leave now, to show wherein disobedience lieth, and to gather that which I perceive you do not yet see. The law of God is absolutely perfect, both in the purpose of requiring that which is Godly, and also in expressing the same in most perfect form. Hereupon it followeth, that so soon as ever a man swerveth from the law of God, in any 〈…〉. Now when men come to make laws, to establish the laws and worship of God in any kingdom? let them be the wisest, and the lernedest, and the most Godly in the whole world: Let the multitude of them be very great: Let their whole purpose and care be to set forth no law, but that which in every respect is holy. Yet because God only hath this glory to be absolutely perfect in wisdom and knowledge: it must needs be granted that some imperfection may be in their laws, For it is incident unto men for to err. Put case then they in some points serve from the truth, and it be afterward made known unto men whom God doth further lighten: Shall their conscience be tied thereunto? If they find God's word to go one way, and the law in some thing an other, which think you they ought to cleave unto? Shall they say thus, they were wise that set forth the law, we will follow them? Is not God then dishonoured and denied, when men are preferred before him? Should they not rather obey God then men? Is it then disobedience when they refuse a commandment of men, because they dare not disobey God? It is not for any man rashly and stubbornly to reject laws: nor in his own wilful conceit to deprave them: but if with a sober mind, and good conscience grounded upon God's word, which he knoweth to be against any law, he do with an humble heart refuse to obey the same law: though men call him rebel, yet before God he shall be cleared as an obedient man.  Philochrematos. 
What is all this to the purpose? who doth deny any part of that which you say. You said that the very mind of our Laws is, that nothing should be, which is against God's word: thereupon I did infer, that their offence is the greater which disobey them. I thought ye would have confuted that and have showed somewhat, as ye said, which I do not yet see.  Orthodoxos. 
You do interrupt me, I was coming unto that point, I am glad ye grant that the wisest men may fail, and that it is no disobedience in a man that refuseth to do a thing enjoined by them, when he seethe it is against God's word. Now to the other point, you say the more Godly the Laws are, the greater is their offence that disobey them: I say so also: but you gather this out of my words, when I said, that the mind and intent of our Law is, that whatsoever is against God and his word, should be thrown down. If men did never err, then that should always follow which you would infer? But seeing they fail often in some points, which only shoot at that in making their laws, to have them agree with God's word, it is but a foolish conclusion which you make. Now mark what followeth upon this, which you do not consider: if it fall out that they establish something which is against the word, their mind is that the same should be established, so soon as it is espied to be so: the more godly they are, the more is their intent that way. Then to the purpose, you say the laws of Godly men are disobeyed. I say it is not their mind if they be godly, that any thing by them set down should be obeyed, if it be found to be against the word of God. For this were to deny the law makers to be godly: to say, that what soever they have once decreed, they will have it obeyed, be it found to be agreeable to the truth, or against the truth.  Philochrematos. 
This is a very unwise speech, and such as would breed all confusion. For by this means every private man shall be a judge and controller of the Law. Again, the Lawmakers cannot set down any penalty to be inflicted upon the breakers of Laws. For if this be, that the law shall be challenged to be against the word of GOD, and therefore to have no power, even by the mind of those which made it: then how shall those which have execution of laws discharge their 〈◊〉? they can not dispense with the penalty of the Law: Laws cannot be dissolved, but by the same authority that they were confirmed.  Orthodoxos. 
Some men take nothing to be wisely spoken, but that which cometh out of their own mouth, and their confused mind imagineth confusion where none is. Every private man, that will be a true Christian, aught to be so well instructed, that he know the things he doth, are commanded by God: and if any thing be commanded him by man, which in his own Conscience, he knoweth to be forbidden by the word of God, it is not the law that shall excuse him in his deed. Do you think that this is a good excuse which Atheists make, when they have lived in two or three Prince's days, and professed contrary religions, to say we are private men, we may not judge of Laws? but we will demand, are private men to be judges and controwlers of Laws? surely in that sense which you speak, they are not, for it is a very disordered thing, that every private man should be an open reprover and controller of Laws, much less may private men take upon them to be reformers. But thus far a private man may go, for the keeping of his own Conscience pure, he is to judge of Laws, and humbly to submit himself to the penalty, where he seethe, he may not obey, and for the other difficulty which you make, is not the penalty against such as do contemptuously, maliciously, and wilfully, despise and break Laws. Do not the wise Lawmakers presuppose such executors of justice, as shall be able to discern, whether it be wilfully and stubbornly that refusal is made, or upon good ground of conscience? I would to God it were not, that some executors of justice, did rather come nigher the breaking of their oath, by turning the edge of the Law against such as it meant most of all to favour and cherish: and the back towards those whom it purposed to cut down, and that grievous corruptions were not cloaked & covered with pretence of law.  Philochrematos. 
If ye can not prove this, ye are worthy to smart for it. I do not think there be any such executors of Laws. The judges in the Commonwealth, they be learned and wise, and as for ecclesiastical governors, they were never more grave and learned, they be far from cloaking and covering any corruptions, as you say, with the pretence of Law.  Orthodoxos. 
I will not meddle with the civil Magistrates, or with their doings. But this I will say for Ecclesiastical judges, that horrible corruptions pass thorough their Hands: Yea, such and so many, that if it please not GOD in his great mercy to look upon us, they will lay waste the Church, and hazard the common wealth.  Philochrematos. 
Ye do but slander and accuse falsely: the Puritans are they which destroy the Church and Common wealth: they are the Vipers which gnaw out the Bowels of their own Mother.  Orthodoxos. 
It is an easy matter barely to affirm or deny: the worst men of all (as the scribes & Pharisees) did accuse our saviour Christ, and said he was a naughty man, affirming that themselves were good men. The Pope and his shavelings did cry out upon Luther, and all other true Servants of GOD, calling them Heretics, using also that very speech which you do, that they were Vipers, gnawing out their Mother's Bowels: But were these things proved? no more shall you ever be able to convince those whom ye accuse, nor to justify those whom ye commend: the Grose abuses and abominations are so many, and withal so manifest, that he needeth an impudent Face, that shall go about to hide them. Those that do with detestation abhor the same, those are Puritans, & precise fools. I will not do as you do, barely affirm or deny. But I will show from point to point, that which I affirm.  Philochrematos. 
I am as able to prove any thing that I have said, as you are to prove yours, & more able, or else I would be sorry, show you what ye can against your betters, power out all your poison, and give me leave to speak but the truth of those whom you like so well: it were good, if men would put on quiet minds, and not be given to contention.  Orthodoxos. 
As men are to be most studious of peace, and to put on quiet minds: so ought they also to strive and contend for the maintenance of Christ's kingdom, when they see it trodden down, unless they will show themselves unfaithful to the Lord: but begin, and say what ye can against these odious Puritans, and afterward give me leave also, to tell ye that which I know will not please ye.  Philodoxos. 
I see your speech doth tend to this issue, to prove who are the Schismatics, and who do the mischief in our Church, the chief Prelates or the Precisians? I like well that there should be reasons & proofs, and not bare affirming, and denying. I will sit and hear, I pray ye proceed as ye did.  Philochrematos. 
The Puritans are the vilest men that be, not worthy to live in a common wealth, because they are seditious and troublesome, and make strife among the people: yea they teach men to be disobedient. I think this is enough against them, if they had no other faults.  Orthodoxos. 
For the term Puritan, I doubt not but you give it unto those, whom it is commonly given unto every where. And that is, if a man have lived a foul and dissolute life, and begin to look a little towards the fear and service of god: By and by, O sir you are become a Puritan. If God have any Church or people in the land, no doubt the title is given them. And therefore no doubt, Satan taught this Rethorik to the first deviser thereof against men in our time. But let the name go. In deed that which ye say is enough against them, and a great deal to much if it were true. Let us have it proved. What example can ye bring in any one place of this land where any sedition hath been moved by these men? Show by the effect in some one place, that which ye do so boldly charge them withal.  Philochrematos. 
What need I bring any particular, or name any one place, when the thing is so general? Do not the people flock after them every where, out of many Towns, sometimes seven miles off? If this be not disordered and a seditious thing, I know not what ye will take to be seditious. Is it not a factious thing, that the people are affectioned to some men, and care not for hearing other? Is the word of God better out of one man's mouth, then of an other? No, no, they make the people fantastical, it is but a vain humour in them.  Orthodoxos. 
Ye say the thing is so general that ye need not stand upon particulars. And for proof ye say, do not the people flock after them every where? What do they flock after them to make a tumult, or to commit any seditious fact? your own wicked conscience doth know, that it is to no such purpose, but to be instructed in the word. But it is a disorder, that men should come seven miles to a sermon. Are not these woeful days, wherein a multitude have even as it were conspired together to famish and starve the people of God. The most places have no teaching at home, and they will not suffer them to seek abroad, but would keep them still in ignorance and blindness: and under pretence of order, their souls must perish. Ye do even as the Priests and pharisees did against Christ and his Apostles. For when he taught, the people were as sheep without a shepherd, and therefore flocked out of all quarters to hear him. And when they delivered him unto Pilate, they accuse him as a seditious person, which moved or stirred up the people, teaching through all jury, beginning at Galilee, even unto that place. Luke. 23. verse. 5. Thus Christ was seditious, because the people flocked to hear him. Me thinketh you and such as you are, should blush when ye make the same accusation that the Priests and pharisees did against Christ. Came it from the father of lies in them? Who cometh it from in you? S. Paul carried abroad the glorious Gospel: the people flocked to his preaching where he came, and were instructed in the way of life. And what saith the Orator Tertullus, being the mouth of the high Priest and the Elders before Felix, against S. Paul for this matter Act. 24. ver. 5. Certainly we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and which moveth sedition among all the jews through the whole world. Men may see, that this is no new practise of Satan, to accuse the Preachers of the Gospel to be seditious. When Christ jesus himself, and his blessed Apostle Paul could not be free from this accusation, who shall look to escape? But you colour the matter and say, the people are fantastical and factious, addicted to hear some, and not othersome, according to their vain humour. With this accusation of the people, ye bear yourself in hand ye have won the field. But who doth not see (that hath any judgement) how the people are so scanted of teaching, that if he be a man of good life, they will go a great way to hear him, though he be but a mean Preacher. It is true in deed which you say, they care not for hearing some. For why? they teach so that a man can be never the better for them. Others are of such evil life, that they esteem not their doctrine, for what power can it have? Some will utter such lies and slanders against others even out of the pulpit, that every man may see their falsehood. Call ye this a fantastical humour in the people, when they care not for hearing such?  Philochrematos. 
Ye deal uncharitably and unchristianly, (I tell ye plainly) in making any comparison between us, and the Priests and pharisees which went against Christ and his Apostles: these do profess Christ as well as yourself. And where as ye would excuse the people: I know they are fantastical, & even to please their humour, they will hear but whom they like: such a man hath the spirit, let us hear him: such a man hath not the spirit we care not for him: such a man is a sound Preacher, where preacheth he? As for such and such there is no edifying in their sermons, they cannot convert men,  Orthodoxos. 
I compare the facts and not the men, and if you can show such difference therein, let it be seen. If a man reprove an open and manifest sin in any of you, by and by it is uncharitably done. In the mean time in yourselves it is very good charity, to utter what ye lust against those whom ye can not detect. And for the people in making choice of those which teach: for those respects which you mention, are you a divine and not ashamed to open your mouth against that? Have ye lost all sense of religion, or do your corrupt affections carry ye against your conscience? I pray ye do not the true Preachers preach by the power of God's spirit? As Saint Paul speaketh of his own preaching 1. Cor. 2. ver. 4. Do ye imagine that every one which preacheth doth come with this power? No, you know full well there be unmeet preachers. Is not I pray ye, the use of preaching to convert men's souls? Do ye think God hath not his messengers whom he setteth about this business? Or do ye think that all kind of preaching doth convert souls? You know there are some which have small skill, how to minister wholesome food unto men's souls, which can occupy a pulpit an hour or two with fine tales and Fables, and pretty jests to make the people laugh: surely he bewrayeth himself to be a gross Dunce, which findeth fault with the people in these things, it argueth that he never knew what it was to have his own soul converted.  Philochrematos. 
Nay, why do ye not speak of those that preach the Law, and do nothing but thunder, and terrify men's Consciences, and bring them into despair: they should preach Christ and bring the glad tidings of the Gospel to comfort men: this maketh strife among the people, and maketh them factious: for one is ready in every thing to controwl another, ye may not do this, ye may not do that: this is against God's commandments: in this ye sin: & so where there was love and friendship, and good Neighberhood before, now there is contention and partaking, this is the Fruit of their preaching every where, & yet forsooth these men are they, which do most good: these are they which convert men's souls: this is a wicked preaching, and as I said before, so I say still, they be seditious.  Orthodoxos. 
Our saviour Christ did preach both the Law and the gospel, Math. 5. And ye may see his Apostles did every where: the Law is the rule of righteousness, expressing the holy and pure will of God. When it is preached and expounded, men by it come to the sight of themselves: and the more they understand the depth and pureness of the Law: the more they espy their own uncleanness, cursedness, and misery: and so are forced to renounce themselves, and to cleave unto jesus Christ. Before they come to this, they can feel little sweetness in the Gospel, but are as men which are whole, and therefore need not the Physician: and for this cause the Law is to be preached strictly. And again, when men are brought to the knowledge of their own nature, and also to the faith in Christ, then are they to walk in all obedience unto God. They must renounce and forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world. Tit. 2.12. The law is the rule to show the evil which we must eschew, and the good which we must follow. And in this respect also, the law is continually to be urged. If men preach nothing but the law, to thunder and to terrify men's consciences, & to bring them into despair, & show them not the comforts of the gospel, them they do evil. But you do falsely slander the Godly Preachers, and maintain a very wicked & horrible opinion, which is, that the law should not be preached. And therefore out of many pulpits, a man may hear these voices: O these Precisians & Puritans they preach the law. The law is abolished, & must not now be preached. And then some great Rabbi standeth glorying, as it were in contempt of the law, I preach the Gospel, and this I do every where. We come & entreat & beseech ye. These fellows that do so tauntingly reprove ye, are not sent of god: they be not white doves which come from God, but black Ravens which come from Hell, good people do not hear them, when they preach thus. Thus they flatter the people in their sins. This is a most filthy seducing of men's souls unto destruction. For under the colour of preaching the Gospel, that all are sinners, and shall be saved by Christ, they do utterly abolish sanctification, so they say they believe in Christ, it is enough, howsoever they live in blindness, and all kind of ungodliness, their conscience must not be troubled: and I pray ye what is the cause that they teach thus? they are of a lose and dissolute life themselves, and therefore they bear with the wickedness of the people, that they may bear with them. But you show a reason why the Law must not be preached: it causeth strife and dissension among the people, and why? forsooth when the Law is taught, than every man can espy when his neighbour doth sin, and then will admonish and reprove him, and when he can not abide it, there groweth strife, and partaking. Are not men commanded to admonish and reprove one another when they do amiss. Math. 18. verse 15? Are not those men to be counted very ungodly, which refuse to be reproved? yea are they not become brutish, which when they are admonished for foul sins, they are at defiance with those that admonish them, & then cry out, there is no love? men must flatter them, and be partakers with them, in all their abominable vices, which we are commanded to have no fellowship withal: but rather to reprove them. Ephe. 5. ver. 11. or else all love is gone: and are not those very seducers, and false Prophets, which nourish ungodly men, and harden them in this evil? and like deep Divines they cry out, where these Puritans are, there is contention. I thank God all my Parishioners are at unity and love together, using good Neighberhood one with another, except it be two or three precise fools, which will not do as their honest Neighbours do: and let a man look upon their Parishioners, and he shall find no knowledge of God among them, but all wicked vices, in which they love and agree together: their lives and the lives of their teachers are alike, and this is the thing they glory of: a cursed unity and a wicked love, which is in the flesh, and yet those that seek to bring men from these vices are seditious and do hurt, because ungodly men can not abide the light, but do raise up contention.  Philochrematos. 
Ye show yourself more and more to be uncharitable, even as all the pack of ye are, to cry out against your brethren, and your betters, that they destroy men's souls, that they be seducers, and false Prophets: how will you be able to prove that they seduce, or that they be like the false Prophets? this doth show what spirit ye be of. Ye have taught your tongues to slander. Such as you, do bewitch the people, and are false Prophets, a company of Asses and dolts.  Orthodoxos. 
When other men speak the truth, they be uncharitable, but when you do lie and slander, and rail, yea even in the pulpit, Asses, dolts, coxcombs, cockadodles (for this is the Rhetoric of divers of ye) yet you are still charitable, and grave wise fathers. I know it is necessary it should be proved, who are seducers and false prophets. For this ye shall find, that among the jews, those that were false prophets, did call the true prophets seducers. This ye may see between jeremias and the false Prophets. Likewise Mychaiah 1. Kings. 22. is counted a false Prophet. We say the Papists are seducers and false Prophets. They say the like of us. But the trial is all. And how shall we try this matter? Surely even by the qualities. Those are the false Prophets and seducers, which deal so with the people, as the false Prophets did in the old time. The children of Israel were marvelous wicked walking in all kind of vices, despising the holy word of God: When the Lord sent his Prophets unto them, calling upon them to forsake their wicked ways, and to turn unto the Lord, threatening the judgements and vengeance of God unless they did return: The false Prophets laboured as fast on the other side, to flatter them, and to make them believe they were in good case. The Lord complaineth of them jere. 23.14. That they strengthened the hands of the wicked, that they should not return every one from his evil. And a little after in the same Chapter he showeth how. They say unto those that despise me, the Lord hath said ye shall have peace: and to every one that walketh in the stubbornness of his own heart, they say, there shall no evil come upon ye. Mark well if it be not so at this day among us: Wickedness aboundeth most horriblely. When the Godly Preachers do vehemently threaten vengeance, unless they return: Are there not by and by others that step up, and find fault that men should be threatened with God's judgements? God is merciful (say they) we must preach the Gospel. ye be Christians, all men are sinners. Yea, they tell those that are drowned in all wickedness, and which despise the word of God: ye be Christians: ye be honest men, and good subjects: Those that find fault with ye, do judge, and therefore are devilish. Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked, that they should not return from their wickedness: to bear them in hand they be good Christians, and shall do well enough? Look in Ezechiel chapter 13. ver. 22. They make the heart of the righteous sad by lying, whom I would not make sad, (saith the Lord) and strengthen the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wickedness. Who doth not see, that this kind of false Prophet is among us every where, which doth in Sermons seek to deface such, as have care to embrace the holy word, in such sort that it can not, but make sad the heart of every good man to hear it. And how much are the wicked encouraged and strengthened by such Sermons? ye shall see them even skip for joy. Here is one (say they) which doth fetch up these Gospelers, these gadders to Sermons: This is a grave man, this is a learned Doctor. Also look in Micah Chapter 2. ver. 11. If a man or one that lieth, prophesy unto thee, of wine and strong drink, he shall be the Prophet to this people. The false Prophets sought that way to please the wicked belly Gods of the world, which were given to follow their lusts and pleasures. And what say our Prophets? Ye may go to the Alehouse and drink and be merry together, ye may dance, ye may play at Cards and bowls upon the Sabbath day, ye may recreate yourselves, ye have freedom in Christ, they seduce and be with men, that do refrain them, as though men needed to be encouraged to such pleasures.  Philochrem. 
Nay those are false Prophets which teach the people disobedience, and such are these Puritans: they will not obey laws, and by their example they teach the people disobedience.  Orthodoxos. 
There is no doubt but those are false Prophets which teach the people disobedience. And as for the Puritans, their doctrine and practise is this: That men must obey the higher powers under pain of damnation: but when any thing is commanded which is against god's word, we must obey God rather than men. This doctrine is to be taught and practised in the days of most Godly and most christian Princes. If this be to teach the people disobedience, I can not tell what to say. I fear me, it will be found, that many of those which boast and brag of obedience, having in their mouth nothing but obedience, obedience, even as if they were obedience itself, do break more laws, & the same of greater importance, than those whom they charge so deeply: and the by the same means, gods glory is trodden down, the Church laid waste, & men's souls destroyed, dangerous enemies to the Prince, & state of the common wealth, bred and nourished.  Philochrematos. 
It is the property of ye all, to be full of accusations against others, and especially against your betters, this is your devilish spirit, when ye are not able to prove that which ye say. It is greatly to be wished, that there were severe punishment for such slanderous tongs, which are so bold to find fault at their pleasure, and to control such as be in office & authority. For, by this means the people and all are drawn on, to prattle and talk of matters which belong not unto them: A lamentable case, what disorder is brought in by ye, whereby God is dishonoured, his Church troubled, and men's souls destroyed, and the Papists bred and nourished, and when all this cometh to pass, ye would shift it from your own shoulders, and lay it upon others. But all wise men do see well enough where the blame is to be laid, and do lament it. I am loath to spend many words, let us hear some of these things proved.  Orthodoxos. 
The end will show who be slanderers, and who they are which are led with a devilish spirit. It grieveth ye sore that ye are spoken of, especially by the people. Ye wish there were severe punishment for slanderers. Why is this, because ye hate slandering? No but ye would not have any so much as whisper of those gross things which are amiss in ye. The people must be like dumb Asses, they must bear all at your hands, and say never a word: yea even when it cometh to the hazarding and losing of their souls. Ye can in no wise abide that the people should have any skill in the holy Scriptures, for fear they should espy somewhat in such as you be. It is a pitiful case (as you think) that the common sort should know, what manner of men Ministers ought to be, and what they should do: For now ye cannot fail in your duty, but every plain man is able to control ye by the word of God. If the common people should be in danger of losing their possessions, their goods or their lives, ye would say it stood them in hand to speak and to plead hard for themselves, and it were a great injury to deny them to speak: how much more doth it stand them in hand think ye, when their souls are in danger not to hold their peace? You require to have some thing proved of that which I spoke. Ye cannot deny, but that the feeding of the sheep of Christ, is one of the weightiest matters under heaven, & which our saviour requireth at the hands of the ministers, even as they love him: For so he saith to Peter: Lovest thou me? Lovest thou me? Lovest thou me more than these? Feed my lambs, feed my sheep, feed my sheep. joh. 21. ver. 15. As if he should say, my sheep and lambs, which I leave in the world, are so dear and prescious unto me, that of all love, I request thee to feed them. Now because the life of his sheep, and tender lambs, even the life of those souls which he bought with his blood, doth depend upon the sincere food of the word, in which they are continually to be fed: he hath appointed shepherds, which shall always attend upon them, to lead them into the green pastures of the word, and unto the lively springs of water, and that shall defend them from wolves, and other cruel beasts which would devour them: these must not be blind guides: these must not be hirelings: these must not be Idol shepherds, dumb dogs, greedy dogs, ravening wolves, nor unsavoury salt: but faithful disposers of the mysteries of God: wise embasadors of the great king, to open and declare his counsels unto men: patterns & examples of all godliness for others to follow, for such the scripture appointeth. According unto this most holy ordinance of god, our law doth require they should be learned & godly. Is this ordinance of God, or this law kept among us? Are there not a rabblement of ungodly & unlearned men appointed to be guides over the flock of Christ? Is there not less account made of the souls of gods people, than men make of their hogs? Are there not in sundry places poor silly creatures which were Popish priests, that a man shall hardly find any so simple in all their parish, such as could hardly live: as serving men, bankrupts, & unthrifts, have they not knocked at the gate, and been let in? Tailors, saddlers, shoemakers, and other handicrafts men that could scarce read english before, are they not consecrated, and become masters in Israel? A multitude of such as are idle, and cannot endure to take any pains, but love to play at bowls, cards & tables a great part of the week, and to be at the alehouse drinking among good fellows, have found the ministry the fittest place to serve their turn. For their chief work is upon the Sunday to read an Homely, and then he hath preached as well as he that studied hardest all the week. Are there not drunkards, adulterers, and men spotted with many foul vices in this holy function? Who are to be blamed, that God's name is thus dishonoured, the Church laid waste, and men's souls destroyed?  Philochrematos. 
I confess there is some fault this way that you speak of: But you and your fellows deal very lewdly and wickedly divers ways as concerning this matter. For first of all, ye blame those which are least to be blamed, that is to say, the reverend Fathers the Bishops, they can not do with all, the Patrons do present them with commendation, if they be not admitted, they will have their quare impedit. Secondly, ye are like evil birds which defile their own nest. If there be such faults in the ministers, it were your part, even for the calling sake, to cover and hide them, and not to blaze them abroad as your manner is. Thirdly, your uncharitable dealing is not to be borne when ye will rail against them, calling them dumb dogs; hirelings, Idol shepherds and I know not what: they be men, they be Christians, they be your brethren. If there were any Godliness in ye, ye would not so handle them. They have Wives and Children, what, would ye have them beg? Surely I think ye would. This is your pitiful mind towards other men. We may see what it is when men will seem to be so zealous, and yet have no love in them. Read the 13 chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinth's, and ye shall see what account is to be made of men, though they have great gifts, and can speak like Angels, and yet have not love. Love doth cover the multitude of sins: But such as you, are so far from covering, that ye make things worse than they are.  Orthodoxos. 
It is well ye confess there is some fault that way. I never spoke with any yet, that would not affirm the same. There be many that are grown to great impudence, but yet dare not for shame say otherwise then you do, the matter is so evident this pot hath so wide a mouth, that ye can find no potlid good enough to cover it. But yet there want no shifts, and excuses in readiness: those are wicked and lewd still, that find fault: First, because they blame those, which are least of all to be blamed: for ye say they must admit such as the Patronnes do present: do ye think all men are become stark Fools, that ye may abuse them, and make them believe what ye lust? I pray ye who made them ministers? Doubtless if the Patrons laid the Eggs, yet it must be confessed, that the Bishops have hatched the whole brood of these untimely Birds. If they at the first offended of ignorance, why have they not lamented this horrible and dreadful sin, and sought redress? If the Devil himself should be consulted withal, to know which were the readiest way, to throw down the gospel: I think he would say this if he should choose: I suppose he would send a great number of those that are already sent, they shall never be able to recompense this foul injury, done to God's people. secondly, the preachers are like birds as you say, that defile there own nest, because they rebuke the sins of the ministry. Ye know not how far this reacheth, & against whom ye shoot this bowlt. Did not the prophets reprove the wickedness of the priests? did not our saviour Christ lay open the quailities of the scribes & pharisees? Did not the apostles paint out wicked teachers in their colours. It is the part of God's servants to rebuke ungodliness, in whom soever they find it. The calling of the ministry is an high calling: for they are in Christ's stead to exercise that office, that he himself did when he lived upon earth. They are put in trust with the souls of men, which are the price of his blood: but yet it doth not follow, the for this calling sake their vices are to be covered It is a vile speech. For the more excellent and prescious the calling is, the less are they to be borne withal, because they dishonour and deface the same. Who will esteem the ministery of the Gospel to be so high and excellent an office, or to be of any weight, when he shall see the very riffraff of the people, worse than jeroboams Priests taken in, and admitted as meet men? Are such fit to succeed the Lord jesus, and to have the charge of souls? How fearful shall their reckoning be before the high judge, that have put them in, and maintain them? Do they not dishonour the Son of God, and never repent for it? Are not their hearts hardened, and blinded in this beastly sin? Ye say moreover, that it is uncharitable dealing to rail upon them, and to call them dumb dogs, Idol shepherds, hirelings, and such like. Was the prophet isaiah uncharitable, or did he rail, when he called the idle unskilful Priests, dumb dogs? Or when he called the covetous Priests that sought after their own gain, greedy Dogs, Chap. 56. ver. 10? Is this unlawful now, which was lawful then? Our saviour faith they be thieves & murderers which were before him, because he is the door, john. 10. All that he sendeth come in at the door. Those whom he sendeth not (as in deed he sendeth none but such as are fit) may well be called thieves and murderers. For they take the hire & destroy the souls of men. When they have showed repentance for these grievous sins, they may be esteemed as brethren, and Christians. They have Wives and children, would ye have them beg? A pitiful case. But I pray ye, is it not a thing much more miserable, that so many thousands of souls should perish, because some may not beg. ye are even made for this life, and can see no further. But why need they beg, let them to their occupation, if they be strong, if not, let them be relieved. You that are so charitable and pitiful unto the Idol ministers, which have done so much hurt, a man would think ye would have a singular care of such as have painfully laboured in the gospel, that their children beg not: still ye call for love, that covereth the multitude of sins. Love doth cover sins where repentance is, & doth forget them, but our Saviour willeth to reprove him that offendeth, & if he repent not when it is showed to the church, he must chunt him as an heathen man: but you would have the love, which should shake hands with all kind of ungodliness, & bear with it. that which the scripture speaketh of love, doth nothing at all make for your turn, seeing it is to hate a man, when one seethe him walk in sin, 
levit. 19.17.  and doth let him alone, and not reprove him.  Philochrematos. 
ye say we have shifts in a readiness. We have them not so ready as you have your wicked and devilish accusations. You might use better and more seemly speech; but that your mouth doth speak out of the abundance of the heart. Such as ye are, such are your words You would make men believe that the Devil himself could do little worse, for the choosing of ministers. Let the world judge who have most to do with the devil, & who best serve his turn: this doth bewray what spirit ye are of. They be more learned; wise, and Godly, against whom ye speak, them are meet to be judged, & controlled by such as you. If there be so great offence committed in making ministers, as you say there is: yet it is not the part of inferiors to meddle & to find fault with their governors, it is a sauciness in them, they are not to reform, the redress must be public authority. When ye cry out against the poor ministers calling them dumb dogs, & so deal unchristianly & unbrotherly, then the prophet isaiah is your defence. Can ye tell what manner of men they were whom he called dumb dogs, & greedy dogs? ye will follow isaiah the prophet & be like him, have you his spirit? Why do ye not admonish privately, & so ye should do less hurt, & show yourselves more charitable? Is not the calling brought into contempt, when the ministers are openly defaced? Are not men's infirmities therefore rather to be covered, and spared, then that should happen? Ye do more hurt that way with one sermon, than ye are able to do good with an hundredth: For ye do not only make the ministery to be despised, but also make those to be evil thought of which made them, and bring the people into unquietness. For how can they tell when they see the ministers strive, what to believe, or what to follow? Again, when those are little esteemed, which are in countenance and honour, how shall the rest of the ministery be esteemed? yea, how shall the Gospel itself be esteemed? Thus do you mar all under a pretence of zeal in reproving sin. Ye are the most unprofitable of all other in the Church: and therefore the first that are to be cut off.  Orthodoxos. 
If those accusations be wicked and devilish, which are against most foul and monstrous abuses, for the defence of the cause of Christ: then are mine wicked and devilish. But how wicked and devilish a thing is this, that he which findeth fault with that which God doth manifestly condemn in his word, is counted wicked and devilish: but he which is a false accuser, in defence of any corruption, the same man is allowed. Woe be to them that call good evil, and evil good: darkness light, and light darkness. Ies. 5. Hath not God ordained, that faithful and wise shepherds shall feed his flock, and defend them from the wolf, and bring them to life everlasting? Doth not the word of God show, that where such are wanting the flock doth perish, and go to destruction? Do you think then, there can be any readier way for the devil to throw down the Gospel, or to destroy the church, them to famish men's souls? By what way are men led to Hell more readily, then to be left in their blindness, and in their sins? Is not the readiest way unto this, to set blind guides, and such as may lead the people unto all ungodliness? Can the Devil if he did make, and send forth ministers, find worse upon the earth, then sundry are? I think if he will have worse, he must bring them from hell. The world seethe this, and doth wonder. The lord God open the eyes of those which made them, that they may see, and be ashamed, and repent. But you say, if there be such offence in making ministers, yet inferiors are not to meddle, it is a sauciness in them, it is public authority, that must reform. No deubt it is public authority that must reform. But what then? Are the ministers of God's word when they publish his will, become saucy? Shall the great God, whose messengers they are, be dishonoured, his church laid waste, and his people destroyed, because they must respect persons? Do not you know that God sendeth his servants even unto high and low, to reprove them when they do amiss? You show yourself to be proud and saucy against God, that ye will have his word give place unto mortal men. Were not the most of the prophets inferior persons, and yet they reproved openly the high Priests, when they did degenerate, and spared not any of what degree soever? The Pope and his Bishops can challenge no more, then to do what they lust, and that without controlment, of any but themselves, which affirm that the power to redress things is only in their hands. We may not give those titles unto evil ministers that the Prophets in the scriptures do. And why? Because we have not the spirit of the Prophets. This is as deep divinity as any that ye could dig out of the bottom of a Dunghill. I pray ye what Spirit shall the Preachers of the Gospel be furnished with all, if not with that holy Spirit of God, which the Prophets spoke by? Is there an other holy Ghost? In deed the Prophets had great and extraordinary gifts of the spirit to do that which we cannot. But doth it therefore follow that we may not reprove sin as they did? It is one principal part of the duty of the Teachers, where in they are to follow the steps of the Apostles and Prophets. The offence is public and open every where, and yet men must be restrained from speaking publicly against it. But you show divers great hurts that ensue by open reproving this matter. The ministry, ye say is brought into contempt by this means, and it were much better men's infirmities were covered, then that should happen. As though the true ministery could be brought into contempt, by reproving that which is corrupt? It should rather be considered, that it should bring them into contempt with god, and all Godly men, if they should not reprove them. For than they might seem to shake hands with them, & to allow their ungodliness, & not to care how this high calling be defiled by laying it upon vile persons, they might also be thought not to pity the souls of men? do not you see, that if fools which are base, beggarly, and uncivil, and of lewd conversation should be made judges, it would be the greatest disgrace to the office that might be? The hurt resteth not you show, in defacing the ministry, but reacheth unto those that made them. In deed it is their discredit which made them, And that is the cause why the true teachers are hunted and tossed about. For if they preach against the insufficiency of any of the ministry, or against their lewd life which all see? Then they post up, and carry news. My lord, such and such preach against your Lordship. I warrant ye those teachers shall have as much a do to defend themselves, as to teach their people. But this is that which doth mar all, when those that be of honour, are by any means brought into contempt: For they do countenance the Gospel and the ministry, and were it not for them, the Gospel should be little esteemed, nor the ministers thereof. Alas, is the glory of the Gospel no greater, nor the dignity of the ministery no more, but that they must ebb and flow, with the worldly honour and glory of some men. How unwise do ye take our Saviour Christ to be, that he laid his glory a side, and took upon him the shape of a Servant, 
Phil. 2.6.  that he might be a minister of the Gospel? How unskilful was he in choosing such simple men to be his Apostles, as had no glory to countenance the matter? He might have come with greater pomp. But he sayeth, My kingdom is not of this world, john. 18. verse 36. Saint Paul sayeth, The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in God. 2. Corinth. 10. If that were a good reason which you make, than were it a special matter, that there should be as great glory and pomp in the ministery as ever the Pope and his Cardinals had. For the same reason set them up at the first. No, no, the dignity and estimation of the ministry doth consist in the power of God's spirit in them. 1. Corinth. 2. verse 4. This spirit doth always cause those ministers to be had in great reverence in whom he speaketh, although they be never so base in outward appearance, as Paul was. Contrariwise, let a minister of the gospel glister in Gold, and sit so high in glory and power, that his feet be above the heads of Emperors and Kings, yet nevertheless he shall be vile, and even stink in the nostrils of men, being void of the power of the spirit, which is the furniture of a right minister. For God saith, I will honour those that honour me, and they that despise me, shallbe despised. 1. Sam. 2. ver. 30. And what saith the Lord by the Prophet Malachy unto the Priests Chapi. 2. verse. 9? Doth he not tell them, that because they departed out of the way, he had made them despised, and abject unto all the people. Then ye see it is God that bringeth such as be of great dignity into contempt, because they degenerate: ye say the people are unquieted, because they can not tell whom they may believe. It is a lamentable thing that they have in these days been kept in such blindness, that they can not try the Spirits, 
1. john. 4.1. john. 10.  nor are not able to know the voice of Christ, or at the least can not see who walk after the word of God, and who do not.  Philochrematos. 
I grant it is a ready way to destroy the Church, where men's souls are famished. Who goeth about any such matter? God be thanked, the word was never more plentifully set forth. They need not famish, for where they have not a Preacher, yet they have the Scriptures read unto them in their own language: they have Prayers and Homelyes, as good as any can be made. There be many good Books, they may read, or hear them read: but such as you, that condemn reading, are those that famish men's souls, if any do. Ye are ungodly, and utter enemies to men's souls, when ye will lead them from the Scriptures unto your expositions: as though they could profit by hearing and reading yours, and not by the reading of the Bible. Where there be blind guides and hirelings, the people perish, no man doth deny that: you say many of the ministers be such, I say they be not: for they set out the word & Sacraments, though not by their own learning. But let it be granted, that some of them be blind guides, yet the people need not perish, for there be others that watch over them, besides the ministers, the Bishops and Archdeacon's: these are not blind, but have their sight better than the Puritans. O, but these can not suffice, with all their learning and Godliness to guide the people, and to keep them in good order, but forsooth every congregation must have one to preach unto them: this were good, but where will ye have them? if ye can find men, where are the livings that shall maintain them? will ye have Preachers to live with ten pound, or twenty pound a year, surely ye are very Dolts, and would have ye know not what. I would you could see your own folly, which very Children do see, that ye might be ashamed, the people are well if ye could let them alone, and are come from Popery. But if they be not Puritans, by and by ye enter into judgement against them, and condemn them to be Atheists and wicked men, yea, to be reprobates, and for this cause ye cry out, the people perish, men's souls are famished and murdered for lack of preachers: are not the people (which you say perish and go to destruction) Christians? do they not at their end call upon God, confess their sins, and hope to be pardoned by the death and bloodshedding of Christ? how then dare you be so wicked and presumptuous, as to judge of them, that they be damned? Will you enter into God's secrets? I think better of such honest poor men, which are dutiful subjects, and live quietly, though they have no teaching, then of such as you: the state of our church would be better, if all were such, because there should be more quietness, than there is now.  Orthodoxos. 
If ever there were any time, in which the words of our saviour Christ were verified, when he saith, If it could be possible, the elect should be deceived, it is now: there be such goodly shows and colours made and set upon matters, to hold the people contented in their ignorance: for what is proclaimed now? and under what do those that destroy the Church, shroud themselves, but the Gospel, the peace of the Church, obedience, learning, gravity, and Godliness: All these are most excellent things, and therefore when they come but for a cloak (as they do unto many which have not the use and benefit of them) the danger is the greater. Ye say the people need not famish the gospel is so plentifully set forth? what preached? no that is but here and there. How then? that which is as good as preaching: the scriptures are read in their own tongue, with homilies and prayers, as good as any can be made. There be also many good books: yea sir, but what saith the holy Apostle. 1. Cor. 1. ver. 21. he saith, It is the pleasure of God to save those which believe by foolish preaching. Will ye not give the Lord leave to save that way which it pleaseth him? or will ye prescribe him an other, that shall be a wiser way? Faith cometh by hearing, and how shall they hear without a Preacher? Rom 10. the priests Lips must keep knowledge, and they must seek the Law at his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of Hosts. Mala. 2. vers. 6. Those things which thou haste heard of me among many witnesses (saith the Apostle unto Timothy) the same commit unto faithful men, which may be meet to teach others. 2. Tim. 2. vers. 2. You see then, God's pleasure is, to work faith and to save by preaching: his ordinance and appointment is, that skilful, wise, and godly pastors shall feed his flock: they must instruct and teach them in the mysteries of the gospel, and lay open unto them all the counsels of God, They must preach the word and be instant, in season and out of season, they must convince, reprove, exhort, with all long suffering and doctrine. 2. Timo. 4. vers. 2. They must watch over the souls of men, as those that shall give account unto God for them. Heb. 13. vers. 17. I pray ye tell me, can the dumb Idols, hirelings, and ungodly men do this? God must needs take men to heaven that way which you devise, although it be flat against his own ordinance. God hath promised to give his Spirit, with the true ministery which he sendeth to publish remission of sins in his name, by which spirit he converteth men's souls: will ye therefore bind him to do the same, to a false ministery? are ye not ashamed thus to mock with GOD, and to abuse his people? the reproach and shame of this will never be done away with any Sacrifice or  offering. Ye say we condemn reading, and some of ye are not ashamed with Brazen faces to affirm it, even out of the Pulpit. We exhort and stir up the people unto the diligent reading of the Scriptures, and where shall a man find so many Bybles and testaments in the hands of the common sort, as where those Puritan Preachers (as you term them) have any while continued? A man would think, considering how manifest a lie it is, that the Devil himself would be ashamed to utter it, as I have heard some of ye, because the ministers set forth the word and Sacraments (though it be not by their own learning) you say they be no blind guides nor hirelings, what manner of setting out is that when the people do not receive instruction? they do as much as lieth in them profane the word and Sacraments. But what though there were blind guides and hirelings, yet the people are well enough, they depend upon the bishops and Archdeacon's, which can see better than Puritans. These I trow can suffice to keep the people in order. I pray ye what can they see, or what do they see? to lead the people to Heaven, or to build them up in good order in the faith? Noah, no, they can see that they shall be kept in blindness, as they are, but what can they do unto those whom they never saw nor knew? doth there go such virtue out of a bishop or an Archdeacon, that it can spread itself over all the Country, even to save their souls, that neither hear nor see them? shall the blind be led by those that never come nigh them, or by those that are present and take them by the hand? for shame hold your peace. Ye confess it were good, that the people were taught every where, but where will ye have so many teachers? and if there be men, ye demand where there will be livings for them? To the first I answer, that the want of Godly and diligent preachers is to be imputed to the Bishops: for even as if they had conspired the death of the Church, they have laboured to suppress and diminish them. To go about to put out thirty or forty in a shire, and then to say, where shall we have preachers, is an odd kind of question? To fill up the rooms so soon as they be void, with Tailors, and servingmen, or such like, so that the learned men in the Universities not called forth, do hold still their fellowships in Colleges: the young men thereby constrained for want of maintenance, depart from thence before they be half ripe, some to teach scholars, some into gentlemen's houses, & many to pop into the ministry before they be meet to guide themselves, and then to demand where shall we have learned men, is also very absurd? To the second I answer that if Bishops, Deans, and, all the fat ones of the Clergy did not love their own bellies, more than the things which are of the Lord jesus: and if they did not esteem the pomp, pleasures, and richesses of the world, more than men's souls, there would be such sufficiency of maintenance, that if there were five Preachers where there is but one, yet none of them should be so bare as to live with 20. pound by the year. We read Acts. 4. that when the Church was in need, such as had possessions, sold them to relieve the bodies of the brethren that wanted: How much more than ought those, which have their thousands, to employ and bestow the same to have the souls of men fed? men's souls do famish you say; if it be so, it is because in many places they have not maintenance for a Preacher. I pray ye which of the fed men, have diminished their pomp, their richesses and pleasures, which never did pennyworth of good in the Church, to set up faithful Teachers? What drop of zeal for God's glory doth appear in many of them? But if this seem hard, as it will to worldly minded men: yet why have they consented that a number should do nothing but hunt after benefices & preferments, and to heap up living upon living, so that one man must have the portions of five or six? some which are past this, & have put all their treasure in one bag, will confess this is abominable: but which of them doth seek redress. If the people be in so good case as you say, then there needeth no redress: For you say they be well, & are come from popery. I marvel to what they be come? they say in deed that the pope is nought, but try them, & ye shall find, that they are stuffed full of popish and superstitious opinions which are contrary to the wholesome doctrine of the gospel. The scriptures every where do describe true Christians to be holy and pure, and full of the knowledge of God. And as for those that walk in darkness, wallowing in all filthy vices, the Lord denounceth vengeance against them. When the true and faithful Preachers do teach men that they can not be saved, unless they turn from their evil ways, seeking after the true knowledge of God, and walk worthy of the same: and that such as be superstitious, such as be swearers, such as be covetous, such as be drunkards and Adulterers, such as be ignorant despisers of the knowledge of the will of God: finally, such as live in any abominable vices, are not true Christians: by and by like warriors for the devils kingdom, ye say we would have the people become Puritans. A man can not so soon mislike gross sins, but straightway: O sir, you like none but Puritans. You judge and condemn men. How can you tell who have faith? Surely if this be not to seduce, to harden, and strengthen men in their wickedness, I know not what is. Might not all this be spoken to the Prophets of God in old time by the false Prophets, which did flatter the wicked, even as such as you be do now? It would make a man's heart bleed to see in what case multitudes of people are for want of teaching, and yet you say they be well. The greatest multitude by many parts do not understand the lords prayer, the ten Commandments, or the Articles of the faith, or the doctrine and use of the Sacraments in any competent measure. There be thousands which be men and women grown, which if a man ask them how they shall be saved they can not tell. As for wickedness, in pride, envy, hatred, & all sins that can be named almost, it doth overflow, & yet you are not ashamed to say, are they not christians? do they not call upon God at their end? This is the divinity of some of our great divines at this day. Let men live as they lust in ignorance and all abominations, so they call at the last, and say Lord have mercy upon me, we must judge their estate as good as the best. As though the Lord had not said, Ye shall cry and not be heard. Proverb. 1. And as though such as know not the faith, being brought up in blindness, could of a soudden, even at their pleasure, pray in faith without doubting. For the Scripture showeth that he which doth doubt in his prayer, shall obtain nothing. james. 1. Our saviour willeth men to strive to enter in at the strait gate, showing that few shall find it. If a man may follow his lusts, and walk in the blindness of his heart all his life, and then a little calling at the last would serve: What hardness were in it? When ye tell men God is merciful, all men sin, what should ye make yourself more holy than other? Ye overthrow all the doctrine of regeneration, and all the precepts which the Apostles do give for walking worthy the Gospel. You make the good and the bad in one condition, as though there were no profit to serve the Lord, as he complaineth Malachy. 3. But wherefore do great men now a days take it so grievously, the any difference of men should be made? Surely I will tell ye the cause. They would not have their treason against the Church of Christ espied, when they thrust upon them wicked and unlearned ministers: For they would have men taught, and men untaught, men Godly and men wicked, all in one account: that it might not appear how they murder men's souls. Nay ye like best, as ye confess of those that be ignorant. And why? Because they are quiet. In deed you are least troubled with those which be most ignorant, for they can not espy your dealing. Such as have knowledge in God's word can say, what a wolf is this? he hath three benefices, and setteth a Tailor in one, a drunkard in an other, And how he flaunts it? He doth visit them once in a year, to see that they do him no wrong in his tithes.  Philochrem. 
If I had authority I would punish ye sharply, and make ye carry a better tongue in your head. For if this may be suffered, we shall have every man a controller shortly. Ye are the vilest men that live, and indeed such as do most hurt of all others. Ye are a pestilent generation, in my judgement worse than the Papists.  Orthodoxos. 
Who could imagine that in this great light of the Gospel it might come to pass, that for speaking against such things as God doth flatly condemn in his word, men should be counted the vilest persons that live? A pestilent generation. Worse than the Papists? For what is it which we condemn in the ministery, but such things as the Lord himself hath first condemned? We cry out against ambition, covetousness, greediness in heaping up livings, worldly pomp, idleness, and such like. We find fault, that unfit men, both for learning and conversation, are set to be guides over the lords people. Doth not the Lord by his Prophets and Apostles reprove the same? And yet if you had authority we must be sharply punished. All men may see what spirit doth possess your heart, when you would sharply punish for reproving that, which the Lord himself reproveth. If ye did punish me, all the world should see that it were for speaking against vice. But I know you will say it is not for speaking against vices, but for charging such men as are free from them. The world were wonderfully changed, if these vices were not to be found: and whither they abound among us, let all men judge that be indifferent. Then when they be spoken against, & no particular men named, but among many, some are blamed: why should those which are not guilty take it grievously? Let those wintch which have galled backs: for they say, rub the galled horse and he will wintch, and some Horse is so piteously galled, that if a man come into the Stable, and do but point towards him, he will snib and take on, for fear the finger should touch his back. Even so play you: for if you had authority you would punish me sharply. We are charged to do the most hurt of all others: surely then it is unto non-residents, double beneficed men, idle and slow-bellies, unlearned Ministers, that this hurt is done by us, for in truth it is the part which you defend, which doth the hurt. First unto the Lord God, then unto our sovereign Lady and gracious Queen, and lastly unto her faithful subjects.  Philochrematos. 
This is a foul and a shameful slander, and in my mind you would be driven and forced to make proof of your words, and be made to recant them. I know your speech doth tend even against some that are chief Ministers in the Church. It is not meet that inferior persons should speak of them and of their doings.  Orthodoxos. 
There shall need no great enforcement to make me prove that which I have said. For if I can not show it to be true, let me lose my life. My words tend against those that are guilty, and none else, whether they be chief Ministers or otherwise: and whereas you say that it is not meet, that inferior persons should speak of chief ministers and of their doings: the Pope can challenge no more. The people spoke of our saviour Christ, and he was content they should scan his doings. The people did speak of the blessed Apostle S. Peter, & found fault that he had gone in unto men uncircumcised and had eaten with them, because he had been with Cornelius. Peter doth not disdain, but satisfieth them concerning his fact. Acts. 11. But the Pope and his generation, are so high above CHRIST and his Apostles, that they may not be spoken of. Well against whomsoever it be, I said that the part, which you defend doth the hurt, unto God, to our gracious Prince, and to her true subjects. And now I will show ye how. First, by the corrupt ministery God's name is dishonoured, because his holy ordinance is defiled and brought into contempt: the dignity of his Son jesus Christ is abased, when there are put into that office which he had, and do represent his person, such as men would scarce trust to keep their Swine. Notable injury is done by this means also, unto our Queen's most excellent Majesty, because it hath long time endangered her most royal person, by strengthening her enemies. For where the people are kept in blindness, the jesuits can easily work upon them, there need no great persuasions, but to tell the poor ignorant creatures, that this is a new religion, and will not you do as your Grandfather, and your great Grandfather did? Will you be wiser than they? Do ye think they be damned? they knew not this learning. You may see what manner of Gospel this is, when they make such Ministers. Was not your Minister a Cobbler? Was not the Minister of such a place an Innkeeper until he was bancrupt? And thus they may lead them at their pleasure. Again, who is able to reckon up the manifold disorders and abuses that spring from the Dumb and ungodly Ministry? and let a man speak against any of the same abuses and disorders: Shall he not by and by hear this. O sir, you will be wiser than the Queen and her counsel, they allow of these things, and will have it thus. Is not this a shameful injury, done unto her Majesty, and her most Honourable Counsel, when all such matters shall be cast upon their shoulders? Furthermore, from whence doth the great abundance of all kind of wickedness and profaneness among the people spring, but from thence that they want instruction? and doth not this endanger the state of the prince, and the whole Land? doth not the Lord grievously plague whole Kingdoms for sin? lastly the injury done to the people is manifest. Solomon saith, he that keepeth back his corn, the people do curse him. How much greater is the wrong, when the bread of life, upon which their souls should feed is taken from them? Thus have I showed by whom the hurt is done: It might be showed in an hundred things, but these are manifest, and of great importance.  Philochrematos 
You and your fellows do the hurt (as I said before) and then ye would lay it upon others. And after ye have uttered some imaginations, than there be an hundred things in which it might be showed. Your tongue is not so tied, but that it would be walking, if there were such matters. Look whatsoever ye say, it must go for payment, after ye have made some show in that ye have devised. Ye are even conspired with the Papists: ye have the very properties of the Annabaptistes, and he that shall mark the end, shall see what it will come to, if ye be let alone. But I pray God ye may be cut short, and that we may not any further feel the effect of your seditious doctrine. I hope ye will be seen unto speedily.  Orthodoxos. 
Whether they be imaginations which I have uttered, I leave to the judgement of such as be wise. I doubt not, but if they be thoroughly weighed, they shall be found exceeding weighty. You gather by my silence that I have no matters: Surely I dare affirm, that he which shall take upon him to utter all particulars, in such abuses as are manifest, and do hurt in our Church, had need to do nothing else for one whole day, and take the longest in the year. Your accusations against us be stolen, when ye charge us to have conspired with the Papists, and to have the properties of the Annabaptists. Your own consciences do witness that we are far from these sorts of men. The Papists and Annabaptists know well enough, that of all other we do least serve their turn. We love the Papists so well, that we wish there were not a shred of their Kingdom left, nor so much as one relic of theirs, ever to be seen among us. The end of all our travail is, to build up the walls of Jerusalem, and to set up the throne of jesus Christ, our Heavenly King in the midst thereof, and to bring the people in subjection unto him: how soever Sanballat and Tobiah, do accuse us, that we mean to rebel. You pray that we may he cut short, and that ye may not feel any further the effect of our seditious Doctrine. It is the Doctrine of jesus Christ, and the effect of it which you fear is, to cut down worldly pomp, Covetousness, and idleness in the ministery. You fear that if it take place, that you must part with two of your Benefices: Nay, you fear that you shall get no higher, there be many of ye, which have laid a plaltform how to come unto wealth and dignity. Ye fear that the great rooms will be little worth before your turn come, and that doth cause you to fret and rage's against the preaching of the Gospel. Ye devise all the fleshly reasons which ye can, to maintain and uphold Corruptions: Ye beat your Brains, and spend your Wits to deface God's Ordinances, and why do ye this? forsooth even for the Church's sake, for the peace of the Church, and for Obedience and good order: Yea, even as much as judas had a care for the Poor. It is well seen, that if there were not great wealth and honours, for which ye contend, ye would scarce open your mouth for such matters, as now ye defend as eagerly as if it stood upon your lives. The Ministers of the Gospel must always pass through troubles, but the Lord jesus will look unto them.  Philochrematos 
There are none so covetous and ambitious as yourselves: And that maketh ye to grudge and repine at those which have wealth and honour, because ye can not come by it. Ye are loath to be inferiors, your minds be so proud and stately. I know if a man will hearken to all your slanders and false accusations, you can hold him a whole day, yea three days, and let them be the longest in the year: but tell but truth, and then a less time will serve well enough. As I said before, if there were matter it should not be covered.  Orthodoxos. 
Ye say we conspire with the Papists, but your manner of dealing is so like theirs, that a man would think ye were joined together in the defence of one cause. For when Luther dealt against the pope, by & by, they cried out that it was, because he could not come to that preferment which he desired. So play you against us, when we reprove those forenamed vices in the Clergy. For ye say we do it because we can not abide to be inferiors, and because we can not come to dignity and wealth, this wicked surmise of yours, hath no colour or show of truth. It is well known, that there be not a few, which could as easily come to their Benefices as you, if they would labour for them, and that might attain unto great dignity, if they would set their mind that way: but they have learned, that such as bend themselves to seek after livings and promotions, do not serve the Lord jesus, but their own bellies. If you could justly charge men, that they had sought and laboured for dignity, and yet miss, then were there some cause for ye to say so, but seeing it is otherwise, me thinketh, if there were but a drop of common honesty in ye, such speech could not be uttered: Ye do also jump with the papists after this sort, when the Servants of God reproved the pride of the Pope: then what was the common voice, but that if these men be not looked unto, have at Kings next? So now reprove Ambition and worldly pomp in the Clergy, and what followeth? Let princes and Noble men take heed: these men will have a fling at them shortly: but blessed be GOD, it is well seen, that the casting down of the Pope, is the exaltation of Princes. For while he standeth like that proud Senacharib King of Ashur: every Rabsaka, yea, every one of his Captains, will take himself to be, as good as King Ezechias, jesa. 36. ver. 9: But let this go. You urge me to speak of abuses, and you say, that if I speak but the truth, a short time will serve. But I say, he that will declare the corruptions, but of your spiritual Courts, he may hold himself occupied a good piece of a day, and yet speak but truth. I know not where a man should begin, or whom he shall find to be the worst: the judge himself or the Scribe, the Proctors or the Summoners: This is sure, all of them regard nothing but Money. All the whole Court is guided by one rule, but that is a Golden rule. The people may not speak a word, for if they do, they be Rebels, Rebels, and speak against the Queen's authority: When as in deed the Queen's Laws are broken, and her Subjects greatly abused.  Philochrematos. 
Mark your doings who will, and he shall find this property in ye, that all your drift is against authority. Now the spiritual Courts come in, great corruptions are in them. If it be as you say, it is pity they should stand. But it is well seen, how soever such as you bark against them, that as they be appointed for correction of Vices, so they do much good: none repine at them, but such as can not abide to be punished for their disorders. If some officer do amiss at some time (as all can not be good) what reason is it that ye should so lewdly accuse the whole Court? you make the judges, the Scribes, the Proctors and Summoners, all alike. If I were an Archdeacon, Official, or Commissary, I would take the law against ye for a slander. You say all is done for money, & the Laws are broken, and the Queen's subjects are abused. I doubt not, but if ye were put to your proof, ye would eat your words.  Orthodoxos. 
He that will mark, shall find this quality in a number of ye? that a man cannot so soon speak against corruptions and abuses, in such as abuse their authority, but straightway ye accuse him, as one which can not abide to be under any government, because he would not be corrected for his disorders. You know well enough, that this is a shrewd accusation to bring men into suspicion, chiefly among those whom GOD hath set up in high authority. This is the crafty wiliness of the Serpent, that men might be terrified, and made to keep silence, what so ever enormities be committed. But you shall not terrify me from speaking that of the Spiritual Courts, which is open and apparent unto all men: Neither shall ye ever be able to make me eat my word. I know such Courts were appointed for the correction of vices, but now they cherish vice, and correct virtue.  Philochrematos. 
I see your malice doth break out further and further: I will take notice of your words, and desire those which are present to remember them. You said all is done for money, the Laws are broken, and the Queen's subjects abused. You add further, that they cherish vice and correct virtue. These I tell you plain, be foul accusations, and you accuse all in general, none excepted.  Orthodoxos. 
I did speak generally, or rather indefinitely, but yet my meaning is not to include every particular person. But my meaning is, that for the most part the Courts be such: I do not say all are such, for I know not all. I trust in God there be some few that either are, or have been judges in such Courts, that do fear the Lord. My speech doth not accuse them, he that is clear, is not to be grieved: whereas you take such notice of my words, I would I might before the chief in the land, under the pain of sharp punishment if I failed, be driven to make proof against the spiritual Courts, that all is done for Money, that the laws are broken, the Subjects abused, vice cherished, and virtue punished.  Philochrematos. 
If you dare be so bold to take upon you, such a matter, you may let us know somewhat now.  Orthodoxos. 
You seem to be such a Stranger unto the matter, that you know nothing. I marvel how you should be ignorant in that which is so manifest and apparently known, that the very Officers of such courts which have their living that way, are afraid they should be accounted impudent, if they should deny that money beareth the sway among them. Let the churchwardens tell what they pay for their quarter Bills, for Books of Articles: if the Book be worth two pence, the price must be six pence. What say you to the probates of Testaments, what excessive extortion is committed that way? but of all other things, the greatest gain cometh in, when some wealthy man is in for adultery. For he will come off somewhat roundly, rather than stand in a white sheet. If the matter be very plain and manifest: yet that the court may seem to deal honestly, and hide the favour which is showed, he must have his compingators: and then come in the vilest men that can be picked, such as be the most notorious Drunkards, and men past shame, and so he is quit by all his peers. It hath fallen out that for the better speed, some that have been absolved (being presented for evil vices & excommunicate) have by & by like good honest men been sworn to help out their neighbour. The Proctors for their fees take part on every side, it is a very fowl clout which they will not help to wash. The summoners they range abroad to drive into the net: but their chief gain is out of the Court: It is better to take a cheeze or a bushel of wheat, than 4. pence for the citation, especially when their good masters will continued the fee. when any ministers are presented by churchwardens for any gross vices, that bill is nipped in the head, and buried in the pocket of a gown. Shall it be thought credible, that among all the Churchwardens and sworn men in a shire, there be not a number of that honesty that they will not be perjured? They must present such ministers as do not catechise, such as be Carders, Dicers, Alehouse-hunters, such as live in suspicion for incontinency. What a rabblement are there of these? And yet how many of them have been punished? There is no Godly Preacher, but doth loath this dealing, and that setteth these Courts at deadly war with him. They touse him, he is a disobedient fellow, he is worse than dogs meat. The people which embrace the Gospel are much suspected to bear small liking unto these Courts, And therefore, many of them are cited, which have Idol ministers at home, and go unto other Towns to hear the word preached. Syrah, you are a disordered fellow, you break the Queen's laws, you do not keep your parish Church. When answer is made, we have no teaching at home, we go to be taught. What is replied, ye shall be made to tarry at home. But for this time, pay the Fees of the Court, which is sixteen pence a man, and get ye hence. They answer, we are poor men, we have wrong to be cited for this matter, we trust ye will spare us. If any do not pay his sixteen pence, than there goeth out an excommunication from the Scribe, under the name of the judge. Lay these things together, & tell me whether money do not bear the sway, the Queen's subjects be not abused, the laws broken, vice cherished, and virtue punished. I have heard, that he which is presented unto a benefice, should have his institution & induction, for xvi. shillings or there about: And now it is grown to 3. pound if it be not more, under some Bishops.  Philodoxos. 
I do not know for mine own part, whether it be so: but in deed it is a general accusation among all men, that there is great corruption in those Courts. It is great pity, if it be so. But there is no calling nor office, in which there will not grow abuses. We may not reject a thing because it is abused.  Philedon. 
How would ye have men live, if they may not take their Fees. They that take pains must be paid for it. The officers are at no small charges, for their meat and for their Horses.  Philochrematos. 
No, no, these peevish wayward men do lie and slander, and make things worse than they be. It is their manner to make great matters of nothing.  Orthodoxos. 
If you count this to lie and slander, what would you say if all should be told. I doubt not but as the Lord saith to Ezechiel, I will yet show thee greater abominations: So he which knoweth the secreats and partilers, in these Courts might make men wonder, considering that all goeth under the name and title of the Gospel. It can not be, but they will wax worse and worse, because they bend themselves against those that be good, and are an arm unto the wicked.  Philochrematos. 
They bend themselves against none but disordered persons, that will not obey laws, those you count good, but they may be counted rebels. Such as be honest & quiet subjects, and like not of your ways, those be the wicked whom you speak of.  Orthodoxos. 
You speak much of disordered persons, that will not obey laws, whom you term rebels. If you wait until such time as they make rebellion, your eyes will sink into your head. Where did you see that those men (whom you term Puritans) did ever give any suspicion of tumult or rebellion? they have learned, that they ought to spend their lives in defence of their Prince, and that it is damnation to resist the powers which God hath set up. Rom. 13. You all say they be but trifles which men stick at. And in words you will seem to wish that they were in the bottom of the sea. Are those rebels which stagger at some things which you confess be trifles & might be spared? Then what will ye account of Bishops & Archdeacon's, which break godly laws, which be of substance? they seem to be zealous for the defence and maintenance of laws, but it is not so, for than would they not break the laws. They are afraid, that every one which refuseth to subscribe to all that they would have him, doth disallow of the Hierarchy. They be afraid that all Puritans do believe that only our Lord jesus, and no mortal man may have the honour, to be called Archipoymen or Archiepiscopos prince of Pastors, and prince of Bishops, 1. Pet. 5. ver. 4. They are afraid that these wayward Puritans, take it unmeet, that christ should be in the shape of a servant while he preached the Gospel, & his ministers and officers should be as Dukes, and Earls, and Barons, and the noble peers of the world. Hinc illae lachrimae. This is the soar. From hence ariseth all the war. The thing is so manifest, that shortly they must lay aside all pretence of the Gospel, and of the peace of the Church, and say plainly, we fight for our own estate. And I pray ye, let me go a little further. Was it ever seen, that all the filthy men of the world, and such as are rotten in their sins did take part with Christ, with his Apostles, or with the Godly which succeeded them? Will the soldiers of Satan seek to uphold the kingdom of Christ? Go through the land, take a view, if ye find not this, let me lose my life. Namely, that all the rank adulterers, common drunkards, unthrifts, ruffians, & horrible swearers, despisers of the word of God, do take part with the Bishops, and cry down with these rebel Puritans. Look further, and ye shall find that many Papists, which will be loath to hear a Sermon, do now bestir them, where there is any whom they term a Puritan Preacher, to inquire what matter he uttered, that he may be complained of and put down. Who carry the complaints, but such as have lost all show of honesty? These (although they be never so full of all ungodliness) are now become the good subjects. These be honest and quiet men: well, I trust the Lord jesus shall never need the service of such. Who rejoice so much now as the Papists? They see the Preachers of the Gospel withstood, and defaced. They see that such as have laboured most diligently to instruct the people, and to draw them from the errors of popery, are accounted the worst men, and soon put to silence. This maketh them already very crank and to set up their bristles, and to speak boldly. It is a common thing now, not in corners, but in the open streets, sounding in the ears of many, these Gospelers be rebels, these professors be knaves, it were no matter if they were hanged.  Philochrem. 
The Papists have no cause to rejoice, nor to set up their bristles, because the Puritans be defaced. They have strengthened the Papists. You speak of the preachers, the Preachers, as though they were the only preachers. God be thanked, there be a number of learned Preachers besides them: Other manner of men than they be. If they be as you say thirty or forty in a shire, what is that to the whole number of learned men? And for the number you speak of, I wisse, there be sundry which are no great learned men, which never took degree in the schools. The rest might be better advised, and show themselves more dutiful subjects. You complain of those which take part with the Bishops and Archdeacon's against the Puritans; as namely that all despisers of God's word, adulterers, drunkards, ruffians, and unthrifts, and other such like: I pray ye are there not as great faults among the Puritans? Are not they full of hatred and malice?  Orthodox. 
You seem to make very light that thirty or forty preathers should be put to silence in a shire, because that is but a small number compared with the whole multitude of learned men. I know the number is small in deed, in respect of the whole ministry: but if you respect faithful & diligent Teachers, it shallbe found a great number. Set a side the greatest part which be unlearned, and come to such as be learned. First reckon up the number of non residents & double beneficed men, which in deed are very many. Some of them attending about the Court, some in Bishops houses, some lying at London, some in the universities. look next upon those idle Preachers, which preach once in a quarter, or once in two months, and are more in the bowling alley then in their study. Lastly, consider what unskilful men do preach: yea, rather profane the holy word of God: and what ungodly men there be of them: and in how great number all these are, and you shall see a miserable, & lamentable face of a Church, when thirty or forty, which taught diligently are taken away. I grant there be some which never took degree in schools, but yet can so handle the word, the sundry which are Doctors, may be ashamed, that they be not comparable to them. You know there be sundry, whom you reproach with Puritanisme, which have taken the highest degree in the schools. Many others also which have taken the other degrees, and do not go without the Doctorshippe for want of learning. You would have those that profess the Gospel to be accounted as evil as the Drunkards and Adulterers. You charge them with hatred and malice, no doubt it cometh to pass, that among those that profess the gospel there be hypocrites. For want of plentiful instruction, there be also sundry weak. But the hatred & malice which you speak of, is, that they will not be partakers with ungodly men in their evil ways, that causeth them to speak so much of malice, and want of love. For it seemeth the greatest hatred in the world unto carnal men, when any mislike their ways. This is it which Saint Peter speaketh of, in the fourth chapter of his first Epistle, which I also cited before. Wherein (saith he) it seemeth to them strange, that ye run not with them unto the same excess of riot, therefore speak they evil of you. He is blind that seethe not this plentifully fulfilled in our time. You say, they might show themselves more dutiful subjects. It falleth out sometimes, that those which are the worst subjects, and such as do Princes very great hurt, do accuse those to be evil subjects, which of all other are the most faithful. Did not Abner and other of King saul's counsellors, take themselves to be his best subjects? and yet who led him from God unto his destruction but they, by stirring him up to persecute David? Did they not accuse David to be a traitor, & yet who was so faithful and true hearted unto his Lord as he? Wise men must not be carried away with a blast of words, nor with some colour of matter which ungodly men never want against the good.  Philocrhematos. 
I perceive it is but in vain to spend the time in talking with such as you, which are obstinately & wilfully bend. You will be singular.  Orthodoxos. 
Obstinacy and wilfulness can not be, but in an ungodly and naughty matter. For a man can not be too steadfast in the truth. Let the cause be good, and the more stiff and constant the mind is, so much the better. If I have uttered or defend any falsehood, let me be convicted, and I will yield. If I be not convicted, what reason is there that I should be charged with wilfulness or obstinacy? If jesus Christ and his Apostles be of my side, what wickedness is it to say I would be singular?  Philodox. 
It were well if ye would all agree, & teach us that be of the laity by your good example, for that aught to be in ye. And how shall it be expected at our hands to live in unity, & to do well, when those are at discord and variance which should instruct and guide us? Can ye exhort us unto concord, and yourselves at variance?  Orthodox. 
You speak of that which was never seen in this world, nor never shall. For so long as God hath faithful messengers, so long will also the Devil have his ungodly instruments. These can never agree, the one part serving god, & the other living viciously. And I pray ye, how or wherein would ye have them to agree? Which part shall condescend unto the other? Which part shall yield? Shall those that hold the truth give over? That is abominable to be spoken and shall never be. Will those that are ungodly yield & submit themselves unto the truth? No, their stomach will not let them, though they be convict in conscience. Moreover, this is to be noted, that such a man as is not sanctified, but delighteth in worldly lusts, cannot abide the purity of the word, which doth condemn him. Herein the world is injurious, that they cry out for unity, unity, blaming always that part which holdeth the truth, because they would have them yield unto their affections, seeing they cannot abide to forsake their vild lusts. Again, a number of ye being overcome of your carnal lusts, are glad to make this pretence and excuse. We cannot tell what to do. The Preachers cannot agree, they be all nought, what should we give heed to follow any thing which they teach? these be hellish and brutish speeches. Ye must seek out which hold the truth, which call ye unto true godliness, and amendment of life, and with them ye must be at unity. The true Preachers are not to exhort men to be at such an unity as you imagine. But they must teach them to fly the fellowship of the wicked. I would to God men would consider this, and turn unto him, and not like Giants fight against him.  Philodoxos. 
I do not think that any do fight against God: You should not utter any such speech unless ye did know it to be true: a man can not fight against God, unless he hate God, and I dare not judge so evil of any man.  Orthodoxos. 
You think none fight against God, because whomsoever a man fighteth against, him he hateth and you dare not judge so evil of any man, to be so foully given over, as to hate God. It is gross ignorance in ye, which seemeth to be excellent modesty: For if you had eyes that could discern, you should see how horribly some men do hate the Lord God, and desperately fight against him. Most true it is, the wicked men are so blinded, by a just judgement of God upon them, that they think they love God, or at least that they do not hate him: But we may not judge according to the sense of flesh & blood, but according to the sacred truth of holy scripture: by which I will make the matter plain unto ye. The blessed Apostle Rom. 8. doth affirm that such as walk after the flesh shall die. He rendereth a reason, which is, that the wisdom of the flesh, is enmity against God? And why is it enmity against God? or why doth the holy ghost charge it to leave hatred against him? because (saith the Apostle) It is not subject to the law of God: neither in deed can be. Mark this well, for it is even as a thunderbolt, whereby all the wicked are stricken down: they bear themselves in hand that they love God, they make open brags and vaunts, that they be his friends: but you may learn here from the mouth of the Lord himself, that whosoever are not Subject to the obedience of his law, they be his enemies and do hate him. Then doth it follow, that whosoever do fight against his word, or any part thereof, they are his enemies, they do hate him & fight against him. Then let us come to the matter. Is there any reasonable man but will confess, that God's word doth command learned & godly ministers, to teach and guide his people? Doth not the scripture lay woes and curses upon those that be contrary? Is it not his holy ordinance that every shepherd shall attend upon the flock of which he hath taken the charge and oversight? Do not those then monstrously fight against God, and hate him, which in sermons, in their books published abroad, do with reasons drawn from the wisdom of the flesh, defend non residentes, double beneficed men, & the unlearned ministry, with sundry abominations? The dreadful vengeance of God doth hang over the heads of such men, unless they repent in time. They do against their Conscience, for they can not but know such things as be evil. The love of the world doth carry them unto it. God hath also commanded that his messengers shall be well entertained, that his Church may be built. Do they not then directly fight against him, which deface & molest them, depriving multitudes of people of the food of their souls: This is yet a more shameless matter, that even such as be old turncoats, & it is to be feared, ready to say Mass again, are great instruments. Such being known atheists, are not ashamed to step into the Pulpit & to charge the Godly & faithful messengers of the Lord, to be Atheists, rebels, traitors, & I know not what. If the cause be good, let not such guilty persons defend it, take such as be not spotted: Shall those stand as the champions in the Lord's battle, which have embraced this present world, and seek after gain? These fight for their belly, & not for the Lord. Those whom the people calleth greedy Dogs, could not be more greedy than these: for they be never satisfied. The Lord give them repentance or else disburden his church of them.  Philedonos. 
I am sorry there is any such task in my house: If you will go to your chambers all things are ready, the Night is well spent.  
FINIS.